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data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-toc.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-toc.unpin">hide</button> </div> <ul class="vector-toc-contents" id="mw-panel-toc-list"> <li id="toc-mw-content-text" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a href="#" class="vector-toc-link"> <div class="vector-toc-text">(Top)</div> </a> </li> <li id="toc-(untitled)" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#(untitled)"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">1</span> <span>(untitled)</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-(untitled)-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Critiques_of_the_new_front_page" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Critiques_of_the_new_front_page"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>Critiques of the new front page</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Critiques_of_the_new_front_page-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-I_like_the_new_front_page!" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#I_like_the_new_front_page!"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>I like the new front page!</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-I_like_the_new_front_page!-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Too_much_scrolling" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Too_much_scrolling"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Too much scrolling</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Too_much_scrolling-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Date_Standard" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Date_Standard"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Date Standard</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Date_Standard-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Unprotected_MediaWiki_Messages" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Unprotected_MediaWiki_Messages"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>Unprotected MediaWiki Messages</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Unprotected_MediaWiki_Messages-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-In_the_news" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#In_the_news"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>In the news</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-In_the_news-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-I_suggest_rewording_the_request_for_comments_slightly" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#I_suggest_rewording_the_request_for_comments_slightly"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>I suggest rewording the request for comments slightly</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-I_suggest_rewording_the_request_for_comments_slightly-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-More_info!" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#More_info!"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>More info!</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-More_info!-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-New_layout" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#New_layout"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>New layout</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-New_layout-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Reworking_intro_paragraph" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Reworking_intro_paragraph"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11</span> <span>Reworking intro paragraph</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Reworking_intro_paragraph-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Seductive_layout..." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Seductive_layout..."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">12</span> <span>Seductive layout...</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Seductive_layout...-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Question" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Question"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">13</span> <span>Question</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Question-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Table_Borders" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Table_Borders"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">14</span> <span>Table Borders</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Table_Borders-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Maintenance_needs" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Maintenance_needs"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15</span> <span>Maintenance needs</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Maintenance_needs-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Very_Good" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Very_Good"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">16</span> <span>Very Good</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Very_Good-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Did_You_Know..." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Did_You_Know..."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">17</span> <span>Did You Know...</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Did_You_Know...-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Much_better" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Much_better"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">18</span> <span>Much better</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Much_better-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-It's_Great!" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#It's_Great!"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">19</span> <span>It's Great!</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-It's_Great!-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Spectacular!" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Spectacular!"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">20</span> <span>Spectacular!</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Spectacular!-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Beautiful" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Beautiful"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">21</span> <span>Beautiful</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Beautiful-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Alternative_headings_for_Did_you_know" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Alternative_headings_for_Did_you_know"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">22</span> <span>Alternative headings for Did you know</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Alternative_headings_for_Did_you_know-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Disasterous" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Disasterous"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">23</span> <span>Disasterous</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Disasterous-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Unique_nature_of_Wikipedia_is_submerged" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Unique_nature_of_Wikipedia_is_submerged"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">24</span> <span>Unique nature of Wikipedia is submerged</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Unique_nature_of_Wikipedia_is_submerged-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-vertical_space_preservation_ideas" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#vertical_space_preservation_ideas"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">25</span> <span>vertical space preservation ideas</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-vertical_space_preservation_ideas-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Pictures!_Argh!" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Pictures!_Argh!"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">26</span> <span>Pictures! Argh!</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Pictures!_Argh!-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Usability_problem" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Usability_problem"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">27</span> <span>Usability problem</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Usability_problem-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-New_Main_Page_-_comment" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#New_Main_Page_-_comment"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">28</span> <span>New Main Page - comment</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-New_Main_Page_-_comment-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Congratulations" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Congratulations"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">29</span> <span>Congratulations</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Congratulations-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Major_issue_with_new_concept" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Major_issue_with_new_concept"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">30</span> <span>Major issue with new concept</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Major_issue_with_new_concept-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-MediaWiki_msgs_and_page_caching_update_issues" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#MediaWiki_msgs_and_page_caching_update_issues"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">31</span> <span>MediaWiki msgs and page caching update issues</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-MediaWiki_msgs_and_page_caching_update_issues-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Wasted_whitespace_makes_page_far_too_tall" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Wasted_whitespace_makes_page_far_too_tall"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">32</span> <span>Wasted whitespace makes page far too tall</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Wasted_whitespace_makes_page_far_too_tall-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-congrats" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#congrats"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">33</span> <span>congrats</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-congrats-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Changes" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Changes"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">34</span> <span>Changes</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Changes-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-headers_again" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#headers_again"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">35</span> <span>headers again</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-headers_again-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-great_look" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#great_look"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">36</span> <span>great look</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-great_look-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Cycling_content" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Cycling_content"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">37</span> <span>Cycling content</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Cycling_content-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Pretty_good,_except_for_the_yellow_box,_side_bars_and_blank_whitespaces" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Pretty_good,_except_for_the_yellow_box,_side_bars_and_blank_whitespaces"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">38</span> <span>Pretty good, except for the yellow box, side bars and blank whitespaces</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Pretty_good,_except_for_the_yellow_box,_side_bars_and_blank_whitespaces-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Straw_poll" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Straw_poll"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">39</span> <span>Straw poll</span> </div> </a> <button aria-controls="toc-Straw_poll-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle Straw poll subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-Straw_poll-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-New_Version(s)" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#New_Version(s)"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">39.1</span> <span>New Version(s)</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-New_Version(s)-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Old_Version(s)" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Old_Version(s)"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">39.2</span> <span>Old Version(s)</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Old_Version(s)-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Other" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Other"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">39.3</span> <span>Other</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Other-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Change_to_the_worse_+_remedies" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Change_to_the_worse_+_remedies"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">40</span> <span>Change to the worse + remedies</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Change_to_the_worse_+_remedies-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-New_design" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#New_design"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">41</span> <span>New design</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-New_design-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-{{msg:itn-test}}" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#{{msg:itn-test}}"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">42</span> <span>{{msg:itn-test}}</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-{{msg:itn-test}}-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Great" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Great"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">43</span> <span>Great</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Great-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-New_page_design_is_a_great_improvement" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#New_page_design_is_a_great_improvement"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">44</span> <span>New page design is a great improvement</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-New_page_design_is_a_great_improvement-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <nav aria-label="Contents" class="vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-titlebar-toc vector-button-flush-left" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" 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href="/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/Archive_14&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="View the content page (page does not exist) [c]" accesskey="c"><span>Article</span></a></li><li id="ca-talk" class="selected vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Talk:Main_Page/Archive_14" rel="discussion" title="Discuss improvements to the content page [t]" accesskey="t"><span>Talk</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="vector-variants-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown emptyPortlet" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-variants-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-variants-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Change language variant" > <label id="vector-variants-dropdown-label" for="vector-variants-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet" aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">English</span> 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vector-page-tools-pinnable-header vector-pinnable-header-unpinned" data-feature-name="page-tools-pinned" data-pinnable-element-id="vector-page-tools" data-pinned-container-id="vector-page-tools-pinned-container" data-unpinned-container-id="vector-page-tools-unpinned-container" > <div class="vector-pinnable-header-label">Tools</div> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-pin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-page-tools.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-page-tools.unpin">hide</button> </div> <div id="p-cactions" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-cactions emptyPortlet vector-has-collapsible-items" title="More options" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Actions </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="ca-more-view" class="selected vector-more-collapsible-item 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src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text" style="text-align:center">This is an <b><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">archive</a></b> of past discussions about <a href="/wiki/Main_Page" title="Main Page">Main Page</a>. <b>Do not edit the contents of this page.</b> If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the <a href="/wiki/Talk:Main_Page" title="Talk:Main Page">current talk page</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <table style="text-align:center;margin:0 auto 0.5em;max-width:50em;width:100%;width:-moz-available;width:-webkit-fill-available;width:stretch"><tbody><tr><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:Main_Page/Archive_10" title="Talk:Main Page/Archive 10">Archive 10</a></td><td>←</td><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:Main_Page/Archive_12" title="Talk:Main Page/Archive 12">Archive 12</a></td><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:Main_Page/Archive_13" title="Talk:Main Page/Archive 13">Archive 13</a></td><td><span style="font-size:115%;"><a class="mw-selflink selflink">Archive 14</a></span></td><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:Main_Page/Archive_15" title="Talk:Main Page/Archive 15">Archive 15</a></td><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:Main_Page/Archive_16" title="Talk:Main Page/Archive 16">Archive 16</a></td><td>→</td><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:Main_Page/Archive_20" title="Talk:Main Page/Archive 20">Archive 20</a></td></tr></tbody></table> <p><br/> </p> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="(untitled)" data-mw-thread-id="h-(untitled)"><span id=".28untitled.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-(untitled)"></span>(untitled)<span data-mw-comment-end="h-(untitled)"></span></h2></div> <p>56 table-of-contents sections, 13 archives of old talk and 6 pages of talk about layout and colours? Give me a break! Why don't people devote their time to producing content? <a href="/wiki/User:Miguel" title="User:Miguel">Miguel</a> 19:38, 2004 Feb 24 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Actually 10 pages of talk about layout. Perhaps we devote our time to layout so that it looks good enough to attract more people producing content and not lost them baffled with arcane Main Page. ;)</dd></dl> <p><br/><a href="/wiki/User:Forseti" title="User:Forseti">Forseti</a> 08:40, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Critiques_of_the_new_front_page" data-mw-thread-id="h-Critiques_of_the_new_front_page"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Critiques_of_the_new_front_page"></span>Critiques of the new front page<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Critiques_of_the_new_front_page"></span></h2></div> <p>IMO, the new page looks a lot better than the old one. However, it's getting a little cluttered. I think we should avoid the "web-portalish" look (i.e. a painfully overwhelming layout; visit <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.lycos.com/">http://www.lycos.com/</a> for an example). I would reduce the amount of text in the "Featured article"/"In the news" to 75% of what it is <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&oldid=2507189">now</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Connelly" title="User:Connelly">Connelly</a> 06:59, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="I_like_the_new_front_page!" data-mw-thread-id="h-I_like_the_new_front_page!"><span id="I_like_the_new_front_page.21"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-I_like_the_new_front_page!"></span>I like the new front page!<span data-mw-comment-end="h-I_like_the_new_front_page!"></span></h2></div> <p>Congrats on the new-look main page - much more professional looking! <a href="/wiki/User:Dramatic" title="User:Dramatic">dramatic</a> 20:11, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Good. I was afraid to be de-sysadmined when I brought it live! -- <a href="/wiki/User:Kaihsu" title="User:Kaihsu">Kaihsu</a> 20:13, 2004 Feb 23 (UTC) <dl><dd>In which case, I would have strongly defended your actions as "being bold" <a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 20:26, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC) <dl><dd>Agreed. Bravo all. Query: Any reason "A day in history" is not "Today in history"? <a href="/wiki/User:Jengod" title="User:Jengod">jengod</a> 20:28, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Mav thinks we might be unable to keep this reasonably up to date.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a> <dl><dd>We can't do any worse than other encyclopedias. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Kaihsu" title="User:Kaihsu">Kaihsu</a> 20:34, 2004 Feb 23 (UTC) <dl><dd>I think mav has a point. I hate to say I told you so, but 2 days ago on the village pump I said this was gonig to be high maintence. <a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 20:35, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>You are wrong. You will see.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd> <dd>We have a lot of sysops, right? Some of all those can easily fix & update the mainpage at times they just feel like it. <a href="/wiki/User:Sverdrup" title="User:Sverdrup">—Sverdrup</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sverdrup" title="User talk:Sverdrup">(talk)</a> 21:33, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) <dl><dd>Why not just say "In history" instead of "A day in history"?</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>The new colors totally suck!!! I like the old ones better. </p> <dl><dd>The new colors are much betta, imho. <a href="/wiki/User:Jengod" title="User:Jengod">jengod</a> 20:37, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)</dd> <dd>New colors are much better! <a href="/wiki/User:Perl" title="User:Perl">Perl</a> 21:12, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <p>Looks good. The division into a normal and a community main page is also a good step towards a more "professional" look. Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Drz" title="User:Drz">DrZ</a> 20:56, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd>I dunno, I don't like it. Maybe I'm just too used to the old one, but somehow I can't say I'm too fond of the new one. <a href="/wiki/User:Premeditated_Chaos" title="User:Premeditated Chaos">PMC</a> 21:19, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>It's a lot clearer. Much less busy. And with pictures. Ooooh. And spaces between lines. Aaaah. It might be good to have an in-depth front page, too. Good work overall, IMO. <a href="/wiki/User:MrJones" title="User:MrJones">Mr. Jones</a> 21:34, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p><p>Congrats on the new main page, it's looking fab! -- <a href="/wiki/User:Francs2000" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Francs2000">Graham :)</a> 21:41, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p><p>I agree - it looks fantastic. Keeping it up to date might be a challenge, but I think it can be done. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ambivalenthysteria&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ambivalenthysteria (page does not exist)">Ambivalenthysteria</a> </p><p>At first I thought "ugh!" then "wow, that's gonna be a lot of work, summarizing everything every day, glad I'm not an admin," and finally "y'know, I think I like it!" :) It's growing on me. Good work! --<a href="/wiki/User:Zandperl" title="User:Zandperl">zandperl</a> 02:17, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p><p>Very nice, but looks difficult to maintain. <a href="/wiki/User:Metasquares" title="User:Metasquares">Metasquares</a> 03:35, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p><p>Excellent. Thank you! <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:MH&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:MH (page does not exist)">MH</a> 11:31, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p><p>It looks fantastic. Very professional. <a href="/wiki/User:Jpo" title="User:Jpo">Jpo</a> 16:01, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p><p>Amazing redesign. -<a href="/wiki/User:Itai" title="User:Itai">Itai</a> 16:04, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Too_much_scrolling" data-mw-thread-id="h-Too_much_scrolling"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Too_much_scrolling"></span>Too much scrolling<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Too_much_scrolling"></span></h2></div> <p>I prefer the old frontpage, there you could see all the 'in the news', 'recent additions', 'featured pages', etc. categories at once. And it was just half a page of scrolling to the bottom. Now the frontpage is too large - once can't see all the 'changing' categories at once. <a href="/wiki/User:Abigail-II" title="User:Abigail-II">Abigail</a> 11:44, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC) </p><p>Second this comment. I do not want the chief Wikipedia presentation (seen by everyone) to look just like some commercial web page. It should fit on a single (nominal) screen. The main page should be, essentially, a collection of pointers to more, not images and bitty comments/teasers. Change the new style. It's not good for Wikipedia! <a href="/wiki/User:Ww" title="User:Ww">ww</a> 17:02, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p><p><br/> I agree and disagree. I think it should fit on a single view, but I <i>love</i> the new layout. <a href="/wiki/User:Noldoaran" title="User:Noldoaran">—Noldoaran</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Noldoaran" title="User talk:Noldoaran">(Talk)</a> 02:50, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Date_Standard" data-mw-thread-id="h-Date_Standard"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Date_Standard"></span>Date Standard<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Date_Standard"></span></h2></div> <p>[[23 February]] or <a href="/wiki/February_23" title="February 23">February 23</a>--obits has the former, the rest has the latter. What do we do? <a href="/wiki/User:Jengod" title="User:Jengod">jengod</a> 20:37, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Why not just wikify the obituary dates, so that the users' preferences will make them all look the same? <a href="/wiki/User:Arwel_Parry" title="User:Arwel Parry">Arwel</a> 21:26, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Ah. I see, although the dates in <a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Holidays&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Template:Holidays (page does not exist)">Template:Holidays</a> are wikified, they're not formatted as dates are in ordinary articles. Something for the developers to look at! <a href="/wiki/User:Arwel_Parry" title="User:Arwel Parry">Arwel</a> 21:32, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Unprotected_MediaWiki_Messages" data-mw-thread-id="h-Unprotected_MediaWiki_Messages"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Unprotected_MediaWiki_Messages"></span>Unprotected MediaWiki Messages<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Unprotected_MediaWiki_Messages"></span></h2></div> <p>I protected the 6 embedded {{msg:xxx}} tags of the new page design, assuming that not protecting them was an oversight. <a href="/wiki/User:Maximus_Rex" title="User:Maximus Rex">Maximus Rex</a> 20:43, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p><p><br/> </p> <dl><dd>I assume one rationale for moving it in the first place was to make these sections editable while reducing the risk of vandalism.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a> 20:47, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>I think having the content in the mediawiki namespace will discourage casual vandals, so it might be ok to leave these unprotected. I think it's worth trying anyway, particularly while it's new and a lot of people are wanting to make edits. <a href="/wiki/User:Angela" title="User:Angela">Angela</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Angela" title="User talk:Angela">.</a> 22:05, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><br/> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Sure thing. I learnt how {{msg:xxx}} works just today, and I don't think casual vandals will (bother to) figure it out. Chalk one up for security through obscurity ;^)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>P.S move this thread outta here fast! Just joking :-) -- <a href="/wiki/User:Arvindn" title="User:Arvindn">Arvindn</a> 15:33, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="In_the_news" data-mw-thread-id="h-In_the_news"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-In_the_news"></span>In the news<span data-mw-comment-end="h-In_the_news"></span></h2></div> <p>I'd just like to say that I really like having full sentences for "In the news" - as it was before, it was like solving a mystery to figure out *why* something was in the news. <a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 20:48, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="I_suggest_rewording_the_request_for_comments_slightly" data-mw-thread-id="h-I_suggest_rewording_the_request_for_comments_slightly"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-I_suggest_rewording_the_request_for_comments_slightly"></span>I suggest rewording the request for comments slightly<span data-mw-comment-end="h-I_suggest_rewording_the_request_for_comments_slightly"></span></h2></div> <p>Since this page will be seen by large numbers of complete newcomers, it might be better to say </p> <dl><dd><i>Please let us know what you think about our new Main Page on <b>its</b> discussion page!</i></dd></dl> <p>rather than <b>the</b> discussion page. Otherwise people might think the link goes to a general discussion page, and we'll get things posted here that should be on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump" title="Wikipedia:Village pump">the Pump</a>, at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk" title="Wikipedia:Reference desk">the Desk</a>, or somewhere completely different. - <a href="/wiki/User:IMSoP" title="User:IMSoP">IMSoP</a> 21:09, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Ooh, thank you, <a href="/wiki/User:Kaihsu" title="User:Kaihsu">Kaihsu</a> - <a href="/wiki/User:IMSoP" title="User:IMSoP">IMSoP</a> 21:30, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <p><br/> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="More_info!" data-mw-thread-id="h-More_info!"><span id="More_info.21"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-More_info!"></span>More info!<span data-mw-comment-end="h-More_info!"></span></h2></div> <p>The new mainpage lacks these things: </p> <ul><li>A larger number of selected articles</li> <li>More info in the first paragraph! State our goal right there! (as it was) (our aim is to create a comprehensive and free encyclopedia-ish)</li> <li>More text, on all issues.</li></ul> <p>We could however skip the obituaries. I can't see why they are not news like the rest. </p><p>I confess that the I liked the old layout, but we'll see what I say in a 3 days when I've accustomated mystelf to the new MP. It looks fresh, at the least. <a href="/wiki/User:Sverdrup" title="User:Sverdrup">—Sverdrup</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sverdrup" title="User talk:Sverdrup">(talk)</a> 21:39, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p><p><br/> </p> <dl><dd>More links do not mean more information. This Main Page his fewer links, but much more context for the individual pages, which increases the incentive to actually <i>follow the links</i>. I have rarely ever followed a link from the old Main Page, to be honest. We may add more to the individual sections, but this should not be at the expense of the length of the summaries.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a> 21:48, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Maybe we don't use the wiki in the same way. I hardly ever clicked the categorizing links formerly to the left (no critisim against their being in the new MP), but often followed links in Featured articles - New articles - in the news and Anniversiaries.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>You have a point, on that we should be clear with what we wish to present, and keep the info volume of the MP low to keep usability at high - but I have a simple adjustment I'd like to be done: why not move anniversiaries to the right, and make the left section be 3-4 items like the current <i>featured article</i> and <i>did you know</i>. That'd look good to me, also if the almanac-like info we want to keep in the main page is slightly shrunk in text size.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Note: the split of 'cyclopedia and community main page is a great move, a Win-win.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Sverdrup" title="User:Sverdrup">—Sverdrup</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sverdrup" title="User talk:Sverdrup">(talk)</a> 22:02, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <hr/> <ul><li>Since January 2001 we have been working on 212954 articles in the English version. -- This is not true. <a href="/wiki/User:Lir" title="User:Lir">Lirath Q. Pynnor</a></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Argh, your right. I don't see how anyone could have missed that. This needs to be fixed immediately!!! <a href="/wiki/User:Perl" title="User:Perl">Perl</a> 21:47, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li>We've started in January 2001 -- this is bad grammar. Perhaps we need more sysops? <a href="/wiki/User:Lir" title="User:Lir">Lirath Q. Pynnor</a></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd>I nominate Lir! <a href="/wiki/User:Perl" title="User:Perl">Perl</a> 21:55, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) <dl><dd>One of your existing admins just fixed the grammar problem. :-) Hopefully that's fast enough for you, Lir. <a href="/wiki/User:Jwrosenzweig" title="User:Jwrosenzweig">Jwrosenzweig</a> 21:58, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) <dl><dd>In reality, this should probably just be changed to a msg. <a href="/wiki/User:Perl" title="User:Perl">Perl</a> 22:23, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="New_layout" data-mw-thread-id="h-New_layout"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-New_layout"></span>New layout<span data-mw-comment-end="h-New_layout"></span></h2></div> <p>It's nice that the new layout has more details, but it seems a little too slick - makes it look kind of corporate, if you know what I mean. The old way looked more "folksy" somehow. </p><p>Is "We've started in January 2001" correct grammar? Doesn't sound right. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Tualha" title="User:Tualha">Tualha</a> 21:54, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I most definitely like this new layout, it doesn't seem "corporate" to me, but just "modern" and oriented a little more towards quick facts. But I think there need to be more of the old links to policy pages, FAQ pages, and those kinds of things. Those seem to be missing from the current version. -- <a href="/wiki/User:MinutiaeMan" title="User:MinutiaeMan">Dan Carlson</a> 22:00, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Have you seen <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Main_Page" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Main Page">Wikipedia:Main Page</a>?<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Reworking_intro_paragraph" data-mw-thread-id="h-Reworking_intro_paragraph"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Reworking_intro_paragraph"></span>Reworking intro paragraph<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Reworking_intro_paragraph"></span></h2></div> <p><i>Welcome to Wikipedia, a multilingual, free-content encyclopedia being written collaboratively by thousands of Internet users since January 2001. We're currently working on xxxxxx articles in the English version, and <b>you</b> can help, too. Visit the <a href="/w/index.php?title=Community_Main_Page&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Community Main Page (page does not exist)">Community Main Page</a> to find out how.</i> </p><p>Comments? I think something more like that would be much more welcoming, a deficiency of the current text, IMHO. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Seth_Ilys" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Seth Ilys">Seth Ilys</a> 21:56, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>January 2001 is kind of a sacred date - I'd like to keep it in there. Also one of the first questions many journalists ask.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Makes sense. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Seth_Ilys" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Seth Ilys">Seth Ilys</a> 22:04, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I agree that keeping the date in is a good idea. <a href="/wiki/User:Angela" title="User:Angela">Angela</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Angela" title="User talk:Angela">.</a> 22:05, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)~</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd>I like it. -- <a href="/wiki/User:James_Anatidae" class="mw-redirect" title="User:James Anatidae">James Anatidae</a> @965, 23 Feb, <a href="/wiki/2004" title="2004">2004</a></dd></dl> <hr/> <p>Just want to say the new layout looks more modern and much nicer than the previous cluttering one. Particularly pictures are eye-catching. It's very good. -- <a href="/wiki/User:TakuyaMurata" title="User:TakuyaMurata">Taku</a> 22:15, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Seductive_layout..." data-mw-thread-id="h-Seductive_layout..."><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Seductive_layout..."></span>Seductive layout...<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Seductive_layout..."></span></h2></div> <p>It works like the glossy paper wrapper on a book. It's much more accessible to a first-time user. <a href="/wiki/User:Wetman" title="User:Wetman">Wetman</a> 22:23, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Agreed. <a href="/wiki/User:Kent_Wang" title="User:Kent Wang">Kent Wang</a> 22:28, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <p>I really like the new layout. Nice work! <a href="/wiki/User:Tannin" title="User:Tannin">Tannin</a> </p><p><br/> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Question" data-mw-thread-id="h-Question"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Question"></span>Question<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Question"></span></h2></div> <p>I wanted to change the gutenberg bible image to the one I <a href="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Gutenberg_Bible.jpg" class="internal" title="Gutenberg Bible.jpg"> uploaded and put into the article yesterday</a> (it's a lot better than the current one), but the messages used on the main page don't show up on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MediaWiki_custom_messages" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MediaWiki custom messages">Wikipedia:MediaWiki custom messages</a>. Where do I go to change them? <a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 22:38, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC) </p><p>Nevermind - they aren't linked from the custom messages page, but I guessed the URL(s). <a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 22:48, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Table_Borders" data-mw-thread-id="h-Table_Borders"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Table_Borders"></span>Table Borders<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Table_Borders"></span></h2></div> <p>I've noticed the large table cells containting "Featured Articles" and "In The News" look different in Mozilla Firefox (0.8 Windows) and IE6. They have black borders in Firefox and light gray borders in IE. You can make them look the same by adding "border:lightgray" to the style attributes of these two TD elements. New look is great, by the way. <a href="/wiki/User:Farmerchris" title="User:Farmerchris">User:Farmerchris</a> 22:41, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC) </p><p>This applies to the two large cells at the bottom of the page too ("Browse Wikipedia by topic" and "Wikipedia in other languages"). <a href="/wiki/User:Farmerchris" title="User:Farmerchris">Farmerchris</a> 22:45, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Maintenance_needs" data-mw-thread-id="h-Maintenance_needs"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Maintenance_needs"></span>Maintenance needs<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Maintenance_needs"></span></h2></div> <p>The new design looks great! In following its development as a test page, I didn't think it was ready yet, but I've definitely reconsidered. I like the commitment to <b>Today in history</b>. We also need to do more to keep our news section up-to-date, with heavier turnover than we had under the old design. All this means we need quite a few sysops working on it regularly. The design change has generated some enthusiasm, now we need sustained interest. --<a href="/wiki/User:Michael_Snow" title="User:Michael Snow">Michael Snow</a> 23:03, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>At least for now, you don't need to be a sysop to edit the various components at the page (see links at the top of this page).<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a> 23:13, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <p>I would like a link to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Announcements" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Announcements">Wikipedia:Announcements</a> page. <a href="/wiki/User:Modster" title="User:Modster">Modster</a> 23:05, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I would like it to always be editable by non sysops. (i'm not a sysop) <a href="/wiki/User:Perl" title="User:Perl">Perl</a> 23:14, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd>I second. I'm not interested in being a sysop, but I think that, with the sections as mediawiki messages, they're sufficiently protected from vandalism and straightforward in their layout that there's no need to restrict them. - <a href="/wiki/User:Seth_Ilys" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Seth Ilys">Seth Ilys</a> 23:35, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <p>Hey, there's no link to edit the <b>Obituaries</b> section! --<a href="/wiki/User:Michael_Snow" title="User:Michael Snow">Michael Snow</a> 00:33, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Yeah, I noticed this. It'd be good if this were the case. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ambivalenthysteria&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ambivalenthysteria (page does not exist)">Ambivalenthysteria</a> 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Very_Good" data-mw-thread-id="h-Very_Good"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Very_Good"></span>Very Good<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Very_Good"></span></h2></div> <p>I like the new main page a lot. It looks better, it's more categorized, and easier to access for first time users. The pictures of the featured articles, news, etc makes it much more professional. It does not have some of the categories the old one does eg: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Welcome,_newcomers" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers">Welcome, newcomers</a> however I don't mind. The only thing I think would be nice is have an old version main page at least temporarily until people get used to the new one. <a href="/wiki/User:ZackDude" title="User:ZackDude">ZackDude</a> 23:38, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I like it, but i'm still divided on it.</dd></dl> <p>--<a href="/wiki/User:Saint-Paddy" title="User:Saint-Paddy">Saint-Paddy</a> 23:53, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd>The welcome newcomers type of stuff is on the new community main page (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Main_Page" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Main Page">Wikipedia:Main Page</a>). I believe an old version of the main page is at <a href="/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/Old&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Main Page/Old (page does not exist)">Main Page/Old</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Gentgeen" title="User:Gentgeen">Gentgeen</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><br/> </p> <hr/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Did_You_Know..." data-mw-thread-id="h-Did_You_Know..."><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Did_You_Know..."></span>Did You Know...<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Did_You_Know..."></span></h2></div> <p>That it wasn't Eqbal Ahmad's brother Daniel at all, it was <a href="/wiki/Philip_Berrigan" title="Philip Berrigan">Philip Berrigan</a>'s brother. Please read the article more carefully before putting that on the main page! I'm a sysop and I'd change it but I don't know how, it uses a message for that now and I have no idea how to change those. <a href="/wiki/User:Sarge_Baldy" title="User:Sarge Baldy">Sarge Baldy</a> 23:44, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>In general, just edit [[MediaWiki:<i>messagename</i>]]. In this case, the actual links are at the top of this talk page. <a href="/wiki/User:Dori" title="User:Dori">Dori</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dori" title="User talk:Dori">Talk</a> 23:48, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Thanks. I noticed the section doesn't refresh until the main page is updated again, that seems kind of bothersome. <a href="/wiki/User:Sarge_Baldy" title="User:Sarge Baldy">Sarge Baldy</a> 23:56, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <hr/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Much_better" data-mw-thread-id="h-Much_better"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Much_better"></span>Much better<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Much_better"></span></h2></div> <p>I'm very happy overall with the new front page. Although total information content has dropped (with the movement of many things to the <a href="/w/index.php?title=Community_Main_Page&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Community Main Page (page does not exist)">Community Main Page</a>), it really grabs your attention with the photographs and immediately relevent facts. </p><p>If I had to note a disadvantage, it would be that this page encourages reading above writing of articles; this may not even be a disadvantage. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Dcoetzee" title="User:Dcoetzee">Derrick Coetzee</a> 00:04, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>This main page is for readers (who outnumber writers IIRC 20-40 to one if not more). I think it was a great idea to separate the two functions. The old main page (which I helped design and itself was a great improvement over the <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&oldid=352606">really old main page</a>) tried to do too many things at once. --<a href="/wiki/User:Maveric149" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Maveric149">mav</a> 02:25, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <hr/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="It's_Great!" data-mw-thread-id="h-It's_Great!"><span id="It.27s_Great.21"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-It's_Great!"></span>It's Great!<span data-mw-comment-end="h-It's_Great!"></span></h2></div> <p>Simply put: nice job guys. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Spectacular!" data-mw-thread-id="h-Spectacular!"><span id="Spectacular.21"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Spectacular!"></span>Spectacular!<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Spectacular!"></span></h2></div> <p>I really enjoy the look, though I'd shave a bit off the top (ie, move the Welcome to Wiki to a sidebar) and reduce the size of the topic boxes just a bit if I could get four boxes showing instead of just two (on my 17" monitor). Keep working on it! <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Dwindrim&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Dwindrim (page does not exist)">Denni</a> 00:41, 2004 Feb 24 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Beautiful" data-mw-thread-id="h-Beautiful"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Beautiful"></span>Beautiful<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Beautiful"></span></h2></div> <p>The main page is lovely. The pictures are especially nice although maybe a little bit much. However, I have a question about the <i>Did you know...</i> section - what exactly is it's purpose, and what kinds of articles go there? How is it different from the Featured article? -<a href="/wiki/User:Alex_S" title="User:Alex S">Alex S</a> 01:41, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>It's the new incarnation of "new pages", but the name is obviously confusing. Unless someone objects, I'm going to change it shortly. <a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 01:44, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Alternative_headings_for_Did_you_know" data-mw-thread-id="h-Alternative_headings_for_Did_you_know"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Alternative_headings_for_Did_you_know"></span>Alternative headings for Did you know<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Alternative_headings_for_Did_you_know"></span></h2></div> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Propose an alternative heading, then I can tell you if I have objections.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>Just to throw out a few ideas: </p> <ul><li>"Featured new article" Voting: <a href="/wiki/User:Alex_S" title="User:Alex S">Alex S</a></li> <li>"New article du jour"</li> <li>"New article spotlight" Voting:</li> <li>"New article"</li> <li>"Did you know..." Voting: <a href="/wiki/User:Kingturtle" title="User:Kingturtle">Kingturtle</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Perl" title="User:Perl">Perl</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Seth_Ilys" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Seth Ilys">Seth Ilys</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Elf" title="User:Elf">Elf</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Jengod" title="User:Jengod">Jengod</a></li> <li>"Hot off the presses"</li> <li>"Now Showing"</li> <li>"Freshly Written"</li> <li>"New and Improved" Voting <a href="/wiki/User:MrJones" title="User:MrJones">Mr. Jones</a></li></ul> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 02:07, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC) </p> <hr/> <p>Creates a much better first impression. Looks more professional and modern. Well done guys. Splitting the community from encyclopedia elements is retrospectively a rather sensible move. <a href="/wiki/User:ChrisG" title="User:ChrisG">ChrisG</a> 01:59, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Disasterous" data-mw-thread-id="h-Disasterous"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Disasterous"></span>Disasterous<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Disasterous"></span></h2></div> <p>Cluttered with excessive information, the layout stretches far too low. No one wants to scroll that much. In short, it's a complete disaster. I would reccomend immediate reversion to the former format until a better idea surfaces. And by 'better idea' I mean just about any idea in the entire world. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:172.171.61.76&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:172.171.61.76 (page does not exist)">172.171.61.76</a> 01:54, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Actually the <a href="/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/Old&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Main Page/Old (page does not exist)">old page</a> was cluttered with excessive information. Much material has been removed for this version. I suspect you are browsing at a very low resolution, may I ask which?<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>I don't know why, but I think the previous main page looked better. Probably due to lack of good pics for front page or maybe its the lack of colours. Maybe I had got used to the colour scheme. I would suggest that while you keep the pics, revert to the old scheme where <i>coloured borders and </i>header names<i> are in bold inside a darker background while the </i>article links<i> are in a lighter colour</i>. The colours used earlier were soft and soothing. I really can't say if Eloquence is right about clutter. Maybe some stuff was removed but a lot of links have been pushed down. I would rather say the previous compact layout was better. The old look was closer to <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/">BBCi</a> (neat) most stuff within one scroll on my mouse and BBCi (not <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/">BBC news</a>) front page has a soft colour scheme. The new look is like <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.cnn.com/">CNN</a> (yuck) lots of things have been pushed down. The pics are almost black and white. Which gives it a dull look. Maybe the pics do not fit in with a colour scheme. Another thing the pics are thumbnails. They are very small. Whatever there size, more colours will look better anyway. <a href="/wiki/User:Ankur" title="User:Ankur">AY</a> 03:12, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Unique_nature_of_Wikipedia_is_submerged" data-mw-thread-id="h-Unique_nature_of_Wikipedia_is_submerged"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Unique_nature_of_Wikipedia_is_submerged"></span>Unique nature of Wikipedia is submerged<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Unique_nature_of_Wikipedia_is_submerged"></span></h2></div> <p>While I would not call it a disaster, it is inferior because information about <b>What Wikipedia is all about</b> is submerged, and nearly invisible. For that reason alone, I think we should seriously go back for now, and get to the drawing board. At the very least, one of the columns (right hand side?) should be dedicated to Wikipedia information, languages, Village Pump, Announcements, etc. <b>This is a revolutionary project</b> and right now it looks like YANAIS (Yet another news and information site). Also, there is way too much white space in the layout, and not an effective use of real estate. <a href="/wiki/User:Fuzheado" title="User:Fuzheado">Fuzheado</a> 02:23, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I completely agree with Fuzheado here. I don't think many people go to WP/Main_page for news. It is not my home page anymore. <a href="/wiki/User:Humus_sapiens" title="User:Humus sapiens">Humus sapiens</a> 04:18, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd>See below re: real estate. Have you seen <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Main_Page" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Main Page">Wikipedia:Main Page</a>?<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>For the record, although I think that page is ugly, I think the introduction is good - better than what we have on the current main page. <a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 02:27, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>The current main page is for readers who greatly outnumber writers. --<a href="/wiki/User:Maveric149" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Maveric149">mav</a> 02:28, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>But we also risk not being able to turn our readers into writers, which is what makes Wikipedia flourish. It's not apparent from the new main page that this is what we're about. Maybe the text about what we are is no smaller, but the pictures and layout draw the most attention, such that I'd be liable to skip the top message. <a href="/wiki/User:Fuzheado" title="User:Fuzheado">Fuzheado</a> 02:32, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I think it is fair to say that most people did not become Wikipedia editors by visiting the Main Page and reading about Wikipedia being editable, but by coming across an article via a search engine and noting its editability. That being said, however, it is important for us to draw attention to Wikipedia's editability.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>If you think that the images draw attention away from this fact, I think it would be premature to conclude that we must eliminate the images. On the other hand, we may want to think about ways to draw more attention to this small introductory paragraph which contains so much important information. Maybe a change of the border color, maybe an image which represents Wikipedia's editability? As a start, I have added a link directly to editing the sandbox.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd>That's why I strongly suggest that we rework the introductory paragraph. I suggested a revision above that (to me at least) is much more welcoming to potential new contributors... -- <a href="/wiki/User:Seth_Ilys" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Seth Ilys">Seth Ilys</a> 03:51, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="vertical_space_preservation_ideas" data-mw-thread-id="h-vertical_space_preservation_ideas"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-vertical_space_preservation_ideas"></span>vertical space preservation ideas<span data-mw-comment-end="h-vertical_space_preservation_ideas"></span></h2></div> <p>In order to allow more information density on the new page, I suggest putting the "More ..." links on the same line as the section captions. Right now there is plenty of vacant space to the right of the caption. Let the fonts stay as they are, just move the links like "More featured articles..." upwards. <a href="/wiki/User:Bevo" title="User:Bevo">Bevo</a> 02:08, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I think having a little whitespace is a good idea. We need to stop trying to push too much information into the Main Page. This makes it hard to read and causes fewer people to actually follow the links.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>I agree with Eloquence. Low information density is something to strive for - just look at Google's main page. <a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 02:16, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>There is an important difference in Wikipedia's new main page and Google's main page: Google's fits on one screen. Wikipedia's doesn't. To me that's a reason Google can be so free with whitespace, and it's also a reason that Wikipedia should try harder to put more information on that top-most screen. <a href="/wiki/User:Bevo" title="User:Bevo">Bevo</a> 02:30, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>If this is important to you, please create an alternative layout on <a href="/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/Temp&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Main Page/Temp (page does not exist)">Main Page/Temp</a> (current content can be overwritten). We can then vote / discuss which version we should use.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a> 02:35, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Fair enough! (except that that page seems to have been overwritten already with a text-only variation; should I revert it to one that's similar to the new page?) <a href="/wiki/User:Bevo" title="User:Bevo">Bevo</a> 02:40, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Ah! Should that have been <a href="/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/Test&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Main Page/Test (page does not exist)">Main Page/Test</a> instead? <a href="/wiki/User:Bevo" title="User:Bevo">Bevo</a> 02:46, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Fooled me once! With those {{msg:itn}} (etc.) tags, I find I can't simply try new ideas. 8-( <a href="/wiki/User:Bevo" title="User:Bevo">Bevo</a> 03:12, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Google's goals are completely different than Wikipedia's. It's not a good comparison. I'll take a look at Eloquence's. <a href="/wiki/User:Fuzheado" title="User:Fuzheado">Fuzheado</a> 02:38, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Pictures!_Argh!" data-mw-thread-id="h-Pictures!_Argh!"><span id="Pictures.21_Argh.21"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Pictures!_Argh!"></span>Pictures! Argh!<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Pictures!_Argh!"></span></h2></div> <p>Guys - before posting pictures to the main page, PLEASE make sure the image page contains full, complete license information. If we're going to feature pictures, I want to make we've got them well documented. <a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 02:19, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Usability_problem" data-mw-thread-id="h-Usability_problem"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Usability_problem"></span>Usability problem<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Usability_problem"></span></h2></div> <p>I know this is inherent in the Wiki system, but when I click on the images on the main page, my brain expects to go to the article, not the bigger version of the image. This is counter-intuitive. Is there any way to change this? <a href="/wiki/User:RadicalBender" title="User:RadicalBender">RadicalBender</a> 02:20, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I agree, and also, put a black border stroke on those pictures! This is News layout 101 here, something one learns in high school newspapering. <a href="/wiki/User:Fuzheado" title="User:Fuzheado">Fuzheado</a> 02:38, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>I'm sure we could benefit from your experience in working on improving the design. Have you seen the MediaWiki namespace links at the top of this page? They allow you to edit the different components of the page. Please go ahead and make changes which you think would be beneficial.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Is it possible to change the border on the pictures using the advanced image syntax? I haven't seen anything about that. <a href="/wiki/User:RadicalBender" title="User:RadicalBender">RadicalBender</a> 04:11, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd>The problem can be temporarily solved by doing a #REDIR ECT <a href="/wiki/Julius_Caesar" title="Julius Caesar">Julius Caesar</a> from the Image: page of the Caesar pic on the main page. The Image: page info is available if you check back. <a href="/wiki/User:Sverdrup" title="User:Sverdrup">—Sverdrup</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sverdrup" title="User talk:Sverdrup">(talk)</a> 16:43, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="New_Main_Page_-_comment" data-mw-thread-id="h-New_Main_Page_-_comment"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-New_Main_Page_-_comment"></span>New Main Page - comment<span data-mw-comment-end="h-New_Main_Page_-_comment"></span></h2></div> <p>Very professional looking. Should attract users of the encyclopedia (not just editors) and all to explore. Disagree with others that think it is a disaster. It looks great! - <a href="/wiki/User:Marshman" title="User:Marshman">Marshman</a> 02:35, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Congratulations" data-mw-thread-id="h-Congratulations"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Congratulations"></span>Congratulations<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Congratulations"></span></h2></div> <p>Congratulations Eloquence (and others). Your hard work over the last week and a half have paid-off.The new main page moves us foward by a decade. <a href="/wiki/User:Mydogategodshat" title="User:Mydogategodshat">mydogategodshat</a> 02:41, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Major_issue_with_new_concept" data-mw-thread-id="h-Major_issue_with_new_concept"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Major_issue_with_new_concept"></span>Major issue with new concept<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Major_issue_with_new_concept"></span></h2></div> <p>Folks, this is not to impugn the good name of the folks who worked on the page. Kudos for being bold and moving us forward. However, the prominence (and selection) of the feature article sets us back. What used to be clear in the old design -- neutral, international, multilingual and participatory -- is severely damaged in this new version. We have an article about the "Irish Houses of Parliament." I have nothing against the Irish :), but this is so far afield from what a stranger would have seen before <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&oldid=2500186">[1]</a>, where no particular emphasis or viewpoint was provided. I'm no Luddite, and I do support a graphical and rich new front page, but I really do worry about Wikipedia's inclusiveness if singular items get to overwhelm all the great things done within the community. I'd like to get others' opinions about this, because it took me a while to figure out why I did not have an affinity for this new design, and I think this is it. <a href="/wiki/User:Fuzheado" title="User:Fuzheado">Fuzheado</a> 02:53, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Do I understand you correctly - you think that selecting individual featured articles with pictures is not neutral?<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>It definitely can be. If you do a quick content analysis of what's on the new page, it's very one dimensional, and dare I say non-NPOV.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>The old page had serial lists of topics, emphasizing science, mathematics, arts, history, how to write for wikipedia, deaths, new articles, anniversaries. The new page, has Irish houses of parliament, Israel-Palestine, Albania, Peerage, Electoral College, Rudyard Kipling, European Greens, Pope Gregory, Roman Empire, Christianity, Estonia. See the trend? It's all West, and not a good reflection of the diverse content inside Wikipedia. Perhaps it's just this initial version, which has not been through the rigors of the wiki process. But can you perhaps see the danger? <a href="/wiki/User:Fuzheado" title="User:Fuzheado">Fuzheado</a> 03:03, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>And to add (and talking to myself) this page will NOT be going through the <i>full rigor</i> of the wiki process because it is protected, and subject to editing only by the administrators. I'm not sure if this was considered in the initial thinking for this page, but in the past, there was only a handful of lines that were debated as to daily content changes, and now it's the entire page. <a href="/wiki/User:Fuzheado" title="User:Fuzheado">Fuzheado</a> 03:10, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Yeah, well... Do you really think that if something that was deemed important on all news sources occurred in Asia, or Africa, or Australia, that we would not include it? Yahoo is probably biased toward the U.S., but look at <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/">[2]</a>. There are exactly two articles in the WORLD section that are not in the West: Haiti (which would probably be in the West) and Uganda. But, I suppose you do have a point, I do admit that we could be a bit more attentive to the 2 million-death civil wars that occur in Africa frequently, sadly...</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>And the reaosn it's protected is to prevent vandalism... if you saw <a href="/wiki/Shock_site" title="Shock site">Goatse</a> on the front page, would you be likely to venture to this site anytime ever again? <a href="/wiki/User:Ugen64" title="User:Ugen64">ugen64</a> 03:16, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Actually, it's much easier to put goatse on the Main Page now -- with links to editable messages and images. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Toby_Bartels" title="User:Toby Bartels">Toby Bartels</a> 05:51, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I understand your concerns. However, I think the Main Page is truly a magnifying glass for the rest of Wikipedia. There <i>is</i> a bias toward western news on <a href="/wiki/Current_events" class="mw-redirect" title="Current events">current events</a>, there <i>is</i> a bias toward western culture on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_articles" title="Wikipedia:Featured articles">Wikipedia:Featured articles</a>. But this bias is not so readily visible because these pages are not as prominent.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I think we have sweeped this issue under the rug for too long. It is important to make our problems visible in order to be able to fix them. I see this as a good opportunity to do so. Clearly we need more volunteers from the Eastern world to work on the pages which function as a source for material on the Main Page.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>That's of course an easy excuse for me not to make any changes on the Main Page ;-). I do think it is very important to keep an eye on NPOV and balance in descriptions and pictures, and I hope you will be there to remind us when we have failed to achieve that balance. But I also believe that article selection should be a fairly machine-like process, where simply the next artice on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_articles" title="Wikipedia:Featured articles">Wikipedia:Featured articles</a> is picked and added to <a href="/wiki/Template:Feature" title="Template:Feature">Template:Feature</a> tomorrow, without regard to the content. If we add a selection process here, we risk other types of bias.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Would an article about a CIA operation to install a certain dictator be featured on the Main Page? Would there be an edit war about it? The only way to avoid that, IMHO, is to proceed in robot like fashion in adding one article after the other from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_articles" title="Wikipedia:Featured articles">Wikipedia:Featured articles</a>. If that results in bias, then the only way to deal with that bias is to actually remove it from the source, the list of featured articles, which may very well be a good thing.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a> 03:17, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>From what I see much of the page remains the same. The contents of the bottom half is right out of the old main page. The main difference is instead of having a list 3 or 4 new articles or featured articles there is just one of each with a link to a much more complete list. I do agree with you however that the admins that monitor this page will have to be concerned with presenting a NPOV. Because there are fewer articles mentioned, page contributors will have to look at how each addition changes the ideological balance. <a href="/wiki/User:Mydogategodshat" title="User:Mydogategodshat">mydogategodshat</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>MDAGS, good point, and with the split of the page into separate parts, it will be more challenging to do that. <a href="/wiki/User:Fuzheado" title="User:Fuzheado">Fuzheado</a> 03:36, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Eloquence and Ugen64, your points are well taken, and am glad to see the individual sections of the front page are indeed editable in parts, using MediaWiki-namespace names. That's a great step forwared, and kudos. And that will make it easier to balance out the (currently) overwhelmingly European outlook on the front page. But it is indeed an important question to ask re: wikipedia. The new main page is delving deeper into "news and journalism" than in the past, which was purely "reference". It was indeed "machine-like" in terms of content, because articles were selected because of date, newness, categorization, etc. But now much more real estate is dedicated to human-decided editorial. That's a big step, and bound to be more contentious. My goal in bringing this up is to merely highlight this shift, and make sure folks are vigilant. I would personally like to see the category list moved up in prominence, so that it at least has a fighting chance against the editorial parts of the main page. <a href="/wiki/User:Fuzheado" title="User:Fuzheado">Fuzheado</a> 03:36, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><br/> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="MediaWiki_msgs_and_page_caching_update_issues" data-mw-thread-id="h-MediaWiki_msgs_and_page_caching_update_issues"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-MediaWiki_msgs_and_page_caching_update_issues"></span>MediaWiki msgs and page caching update issues<span data-mw-comment-end="h-MediaWiki_msgs_and_page_caching_update_issues"></span></h2></div> <p>IIRC, the page cache, especially for anons, are dependent on when the page was last saved. Therefore changes to the MediaWiki msg pages on the Main Page will not be reflected on the <a href="/wiki/Main_Page" title="Main Page">Main Page</a> for most readers until those readers either force a reload or the Main Page is edited and saved. This is less than ideal, IMO. --<a href="/wiki/User:Maveric149" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Maveric149">mav</a> 03:12, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I'll experiment with this right now.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>It works better than expected, at least in Konqueror -- I don't even have to hit shift+reload, when I reload the page the update is immediately visible. I suspect any caching issues you see are unrelated to the MediaWiki namespace, as it appears that updates to MediaWiki pages automatically expire the cache.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a> 03:20, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>I had to hit Shift-Reload (on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Main_Page" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Main Page">Wikipedia:Main Page</a>, using Netscape 7 for Solaris, after editing <a href="/wiki/Template:Totd" title="Template:Totd">Template:Totd</a>). *shrug* -- <a href="/wiki/User:Toby_Bartels" title="User:Toby Bartels">Toby Bartels</a> 06:28, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Wasted_whitespace_makes_page_far_too_tall" data-mw-thread-id="h-Wasted_whitespace_makes_page_far_too_tall"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Wasted_whitespace_makes_page_far_too_tall"></span>Wasted whitespace makes page far too tall<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Wasted_whitespace_makes_page_far_too_tall"></span></h2></div> <p>Is there anything we can do about <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://home.erin.utoronto.ca/~jbonham/wikipedia/wasted-whitespace.png">this</a>? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Silsor&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Silsor (page does not exist)">silsor</a> 03:24, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>We could get rid of the header that says "Main page from Wikipedia, the free encyclo". It is redundant, wastes space, introduces white space in an ugly area, and saps initial impact from the page. <a href="/wiki/User:Mydogategodshat" title="User:Mydogategodshat">mydogategodshat</a></dd></dl> <dl><dd>Are you referring to the left/right balance? There should probably be an additional news item at least. Also, could you add the screenshot, with a proper filename and caption, to <a href="/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/Screenshots&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Main Page/Screenshots (page does not exist)">Main Page/Screenshots</a>?<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd></dl> <p><br/> </p> <dl><dd>We could also drop the font size a wee bit; would compact it slightly and make line breaks better on narrower screens/windows. <a href="/wiki/User:Elf" title="User:Elf">Elf</a> 04:27, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <p><br/> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="congrats" data-mw-thread-id="h-congrats"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-congrats"></span>congrats<span data-mw-comment-end="h-congrats"></span></h2></div> <p>No matter earlier discussion regarding the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Plain_vanilla_main_page" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Plain vanilla main page">Wikipedia:Plain vanilla main page</a>, I would like to thank all people who volunteered their time and effort to make the new main page possible. Indeed, it's more beautiful. But we may still need to have something simpler for users with old computers, PDAs, etc. So, an additional plain vanilla main page wouldn't hurt, if we can maintain it. <a href="/wiki/User:Optim" title="User:Optim">Optim</a> 03:25, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Having a link to a simpler Main Page at the top of this one makes sense. Maintaining the two should be easy - just update the MediaWiki msgs and both versions get updated. --<a href="/wiki/User:Maveric149" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Maveric149">mav</a> 03:57, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Changes" data-mw-thread-id="h-Changes"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Changes"></span>Changes<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Changes"></span></h2></div> <p>Please see <a href="/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/Test8&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Main Page/Test8 (page does not exist)">Main_Page/Test8</a> for my ideas on how to tighten the page up. Basically remove the "archive" sections from the vital main page space and integrated the "more" links tighter with the text. <a href="/wiki/User:Jengod" title="User:Jengod">jengod</a> 04:02, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I like it. One of my biggest complaints with the new design is there's too much white space. I feel your version takes care of that problem nicely. <a href="/wiki/User:Sarge_Baldy" title="User:Sarge Baldy">Sarge Baldy</a> 04:07, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd>Your test8 is better use of space. However, I'd also like to see how the "community" page could be highlighted more. It is just too easy to miss it. <a href="/wiki/User:Fuzheado" title="User:Fuzheado">Fuzheado</a> 04:09, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Added Wikiwhat? - Wikommunity Main Page - Wikwestions and Answers <a href="/wiki/User:Jengod" title="User:Jengod">jengod</a> 04:19, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I like it. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Decumanus" title="User:Decumanus">Decumanus</a> 04:21, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>No way, sorry. That's just plain ugly.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Oog. I am very much in agreement. Please, let's not fall into the "portal trap" where we <i>must</i> find <i>some</i> way to fill in every single pixel of space. Can we add <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not">Wikipedia is not</a> ESPN.com? <a href="/wiki/User:RadicalBender" title="User:RadicalBender">RadicalBender</a> 04:36, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd>I find the placement of the "More" links confusing. Sometimes they're at the top, sometimes at the bottom, sometimes right aligned, sometimes left - please try to make that consistent.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a></dd></dl> <dl><dd>I much preferred the "More blah..." being on separate lines and off to the right. They get lost when they run into the paragraph or are listed as bullets as if they're just another item in the list--which they aren't. White space set them off & made them much clearer. <a href="/wiki/User:Elf" title="User:Elf">Elf</a> 04:31, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><a href="/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/Test8&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Main Page/Test8 (page does not exist)">Main_Page/Test8</a> Okay, while "More blah..." hate aside, I personally thing obits and holidays are a.) stupid b.) slow--this page HAS to be sexy. Functionality too, yes, but people need to get an impression of our brand from the main page (forgive the vapid marketing-speak), and they can understand it further by exploring some of our bajillion pages. Anyway, it tightens up someone what if you kill obits and holidays and switch the new section to beneath news. <a href="/wiki/User:Jengod" title="User:Jengod">jengod</a> 05:22, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)~</dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>Jengod - I like the way your version looks over the look of the current Main Page. I would, however, use the holiday section in place of the 'Did you know...' section. But since some people really like the sections you removed, I think a better option would be to try to streamline the 6 sections, instead of reducing them to 4. --<a href="/wiki/User:Maveric149" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Maveric149">mav</a> 07:06, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p><p>I think a merger of the recent deaths and the In The News is in order. In fact, it's already part way there. <a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 07:08, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC) </p><p>This test8 is like my thinking. Some tweaking, but overall it's much better than the current rev. <a href="/wiki/User:Sverdrup" title="User:Sverdrup">—Sverdrup</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sverdrup" title="User talk:Sverdrup">(talk)</a> 14:58, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="headers_again" data-mw-thread-id="h-headers_again"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-headers_again"></span>headers again<span data-mw-comment-end="h-headers_again"></span></h2></div> <p>Does anyone mind if I change these to start the headers at the appropriate level? I did a quick preview and it didn't seem to muck everything up... <a href="/wiki/User:Dysprosia" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dysprosia">Dysprosia</a> 04:22, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I was the one that smalled 'em up--I think it tightens the page up--the top-level headers are so blaring, IMHO. <a href="/wiki/User:Jengod" title="User:Jengod">jengod</a> 05:23, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC) <dl><dd>It violates the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(headings)" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings)">Manual of style</a> - which doesn't look good if the Main Page is nonconformant. <a href="/wiki/User:Dysprosia" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dysprosia">Dysprosia</a> 05:28, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) <dl><dd>You could also, argue--as I am about to do :)--that the Main Page falls outside the bounds of the Manual's normal guidelines, seeing as how it is the functional equivalent of a title page or table of contents, and inherently different from a regular text page. <dl><dd>You could also argue, as I am about to do that the Wikipedia has no sense of dedicated "table of contents" nor "title page" ;) The Main Page is a Wikipedia article, just as any other... <a href="/wiki/User:Dysprosia" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dysprosia">Dysprosia</a> 06:13, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>I agree with jengod in theory -- the Main Page <i>is</i> different from the encyclopaedia articles. (As mav pointed out once, it doesn't have to follow our downcase naming conventions either.) However in practice??? Well, I don't really care about the size of the headers -- so jengod's change is fine by me -- but I must disagree about the size of the <i>introductory text</i>. </p><p>I think that Wikipedia is different from the other encyclopaedias on the Internet -- <i>very</i> different. It's a <b>wiki</b>, and we need to make that prominent. The introductory text does a reasonable job at that (I might write it differently, but it's no big deal). However, with the size reduction, we invite readers to skip over it and look at the pretty pictures. Now, I <i>like</i> the pretty pictures, don't get me wrong! But we <i>also</i> need them to notice why we are <i>special</i> -- we're a <b>wiki</b>. It doesn't do much good to strongly emphasise how "<b>you</b>" can edit any article if we put it at 85% size! This paragraph really should be at normal size, like the other material on the page -- it's at <i>least</i> as important! </p><p>-- <a href="/wiki/User:Toby_Bartels" title="User:Toby Bartels">Toby Bartels</a> 06:39, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Agree with Toby. <a href="/wiki/User:Jengod" title="User:Jengod">jengod</a> 06:47, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>All links, in the directory format, moved up from the bottom of the page to be visible. Ditch obituaries, news and <i>especially</i> featured articles. Restore new pages (!!). Tighten all the white space at the top that makes the page look like someone's homepage from 1996. Information rich. Inviting. My two cents. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Decumanus" title="User:Decumanus">Decumanus</a> 06:53, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd> <dd>The worst thing about the old/new page, in my opinion, is that for all intents and purposes, for newcomers, the same of this web site is <b>Main Page</b>==<a href="/wiki/User:Decumanus" title="User:Decumanus">Decumanus</a>.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="great_look" data-mw-thread-id="h-great_look"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-great_look"></span>great look<span data-mw-comment-end="h-great_look"></span></h2></div> <p>I'm a fan oof wikipedia anyway - but now have good reason to have it as my start page, great work and the new look is informative and attractive. Thanks to all those who put it together, as well as to all who participate in wikipedia and this resource! <a href="/wiki/User:Corqspy" title="User:Corqspy">corqspy</a> </p> <dl><dd>Thanks! --<a href="/wiki/User:Maveric149" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Maveric149">mav</a></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Cycling_content" data-mw-thread-id="h-Cycling_content"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Cycling_content"></span>Cycling content<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Cycling_content"></span></h2></div> <p>It seems like the content is being changed every hour. I realize that this is due to the "newness" of the page, but hopefully it will slow down a tad (not too much though :) <a href="/wiki/User:Dori" title="User:Dori">Dori</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dori" title="User talk:Dori">Talk</a> 06:09, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>I'm just amazed that my idea for a featured article spot on the main page has gone from planning phase (around Dec 20 or so) to front and center on the main page in just over 2 months :) <a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 06:11, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Not to rain on your parade, but the idea has been around <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page/Temp4&oldid=1215731">since July 2003</a> at least.<a href="/wiki/User:Eloquence" title="User:Eloquence">—Eloquence</a> 06:32, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Damn! Oh well <a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 06:35, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>Ah, but was it Raul654's suggestion that actually <i>worked</i>? <a href="/wiki/The_Americas" class="mw-redirect" title="The Americas">America</a> may have been discovered by the <a href="/wiki/Vinland" title="Vinland">Vikings</a>, the <a href="/wiki/Basque" class="mw-disambig" title="Basque">Basques</a>, the <a href="/wiki/History_of_Ancient_Egypt" class="mw-redirect" title="History of Ancient Egypt">Egyptians</a>, the <a href="/wiki/Polynesia" title="Polynesia">Polynesians</a>, the <a href="/wiki/Sung_Document" class="mw-redirect" title="Sung Document">Chinese</a>, and millions of <a href="/wiki/Bering_Land_Bridge" class="mw-redirect" title="Bering Land Bridge">Siberians</a>' descendants -- but <a href="/wiki/Christopher_Columbus" title="Christopher Columbus">Columbus</a> discovered it too, and <i>his</i> discovery changed the world! -- <a href="/wiki/User:Toby_Bartels" title="User:Toby Bartels">Toby Bartels</a> 06:52, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Yes, actually. I started the threat here on talk mainpage, and (when it seemed like everyone pretty much agreed), I suggested that someone who knew html better than I "be bold" and do it. I can't remember who, but someone went ahead and made the change. And that was that. <a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 06:54, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <p><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&limit=100&offset=400&action=history">Got it.</a> </p> <ul><li>(cur) (last) . . 11:30, Jan 13, 2004 . . Bmills (adding Featured Articles)</li></ul> <p>No life<a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 06:57, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>The most effective approval process around here really does seem to be to have one person mention an idea on the talk page, and then another person implement it. Huge debates, complex voting and mailing lists, on the other hand, are a fairly enjoyable way to waste our time with not too much danger of changing anything (c.f. talk:VfD and its many cousins). <a href="/wiki/User:Pcb21" title="User:Pcb21">Pete/Pcb21</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pcb21" title="User talk:Pcb21">(talk)</a> 09:29, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Pretty_good,_except_for_the_yellow_box,_side_bars_and_blank_whitespaces" data-mw-thread-id="h-Pretty_good,_except_for_the_yellow_box,_side_bars_and_blank_whitespaces"><span id="Pretty_good.2C_except_for_the_yellow_box.2C_side_bars_and_blank_whitespaces"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Pretty_good,_except_for_the_yellow_box,_side_bars_and_blank_whitespaces"></span>Pretty good, except for the yellow box, side bars and blank whitespaces<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Pretty_good,_except_for_the_yellow_box,_side_bars_and_blank_whitespaces"></span></h2></div> <p>Looks pretty good! A few points though:-)- the welcome box in yellow is too wordy, and important points are not highlighted. And if the latest announcements/comments (such as the now existing sentence asking for comments about the main page) are going to form a permanent feature, its all the more important. Basically the main body of the page is fine, but the yellow box looks more like a statutory warning than a pleasant welcome!:-) Also, can the side bars and the standard top menu be slightly changed? Maybe if the matter below the side bar extends to the full width of the screen with a horizontal break emphasised (through light line/ colour) it would be better. (The <i>browse wikipedia by topic</i> can extend fully thereby avoiding too much of white space) <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:KRS&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:KRS (page does not exist)">KRS</a> 06:25, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Straw_poll" data-mw-thread-id="h-Straw_poll"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Straw_poll"></span>Straw poll<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Straw_poll"></span></h2></div> <p>Which version do you like best? </p><p><i>The usefulness of this poll is disputed.</i> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="New_Version(s)" data-mw-thread-id="h-New_Version(s)-Straw_poll"><span id="New_Version.28s.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-New_Version(s)-Straw_poll"></span>New Version(s)<span data-mw-comment-end="h-New_Version(s)-Straw_poll"></span></h3></div> <ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&oldid=2507293">Toby's change evilly added after the poll was begun</a> <ol><li>... producing this! (<a href="/wiki/User:Toby_Bartels" title="User:Toby Bartels">Toby Bartels</a>)</li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Anthony_DiPierro&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Anthony DiPierro (page does not exist)">Anthony DiPierro</a></li></ol></li></ul> <ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&oldid=2507207">With Jengod's 2nd changes</a> <ol><li><a href="/wiki/User:Maveric149" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Maveric149">mav</a> (I like the overall look better, but miss the holidays section; IMO it would still fit) <ul><li>Holidays can be part of today in history--just a thought... <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jengod" title="User talk:Jengod">Jengod</a></li> <li>Not all holidays happen on the same day every year. --mav</li></ul></li> <li>This is the best in the poll ... (<a href="/wiki/User:Toby_Bartels" title="User:Toby Bartels">Toby Bartels</a>)</li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Anthony_DiPierro&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Anthony DiPierro (page does not exist)">Anthony DiPierro</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Dramatic" title="User:Dramatic">User:Dramatic</a></li></ol></li></ul> <ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&oldid=2507189">Jengod's 1st changes</a> <ol><li><a href="/wiki/User:Raul654" title="User:Raul654">→Raul654</a> 07:00, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Jengod" title="User:Jengod">jengod</a> 07:12, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC) pretty sure my first edits were good--not so sure about second edits. ;)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Baldhur" title="User:Baldhur">Baldhur</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Gentgeen" title="User:Gentgeen">Gentgeen</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Marshman" title="User:Marshman">Marshman</a> Not sure about differences with these versions, but like the box at top best in this one</li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:ChrisG" title="User:ChrisG">ChrisG</a> I like all the new versions better than the old, but this is probably the best. But where are the links to other languages/link to browse by topic on the top right which I thought were useful?</li></ol></li></ul> <ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&oldid=2506925">Before jengod's changes</a> <ol><li>... although I'd rather start with this, then change the font size ... (<a href="/wiki/User:Toby_Bartels" title="User:Toby Bartels">Toby Bartels</a>)</li> <li>Otherwise we're going to have "death by 1,000 nitpicks." <a href="/wiki/User:RadicalBender" title="User:RadicalBender">RadicalBender</a> 13:48, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Dori" title="User:Dori">Dori</a></li> <li>Should keep obituaries (more important than holidays, in my opinion). Need to keep everything short, though, to use up less screen space. --<a href="/wiki/User:Michael_Snow" title="User:Michael Snow">Michael Snow</a> 19:01, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Angela" title="User:Angela">Angela</a></li></ol></li></ul> <ul><li><b>Any of the new versions are fine</b> <ol><li><a href="/wiki/User:SimonP" title="User:SimonP">SimonP</a> 17:04, Mar 6, 2004 (UTC)</li></ol></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Old_Version(s)" data-mw-thread-id="h-Old_Version(s)-Straw_poll"><span id="Old_Version.28s.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Old_Version(s)-Straw_poll"></span>Old Version(s)<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Old_Version(s)-Straw_poll"></span></h3></div> <ul><li><a href="/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/Old&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Main Page/Old (page does not exist)">Previous main page</a> <ol><li><a href="/wiki/User:Jamesday" title="User:Jamesday">Jamesday</a> 07:56, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</li> <li>I like the new changes. But they still need plenty of work. Until I see something I adore, my vote belongs here. <a href="/wiki/User:Kingturtle" title="User:Kingturtle">Kingturtle</a> 08:22, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) P.S. I like the new version better now. But until there is a Community Page button, I cannot endorse the new system. Navagation is less convenient for me now than it was before. <a href="/wiki/User:Kingturtle" title="User:Kingturtle">Kingturtle</a> 00:30, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)</li> <li>Former page had community, categories and Wikipedia activity (new articles) front and center. It would be nice to brings aspects of that to the new design. <a href="/wiki/User:Fuzheado" title="User:Fuzheado">Fuzheado</a> 08:59, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</li> <li>The old one, without any question. I don't mind color changes or minor layout modifications, but I liked the overall concept. Clean and to the point. <a href="/wiki/User:Rschroev" title="User:Rschroev">rschroev</a> 15:40, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Moriori" title="User:Moriori">Moriori</a> 22:30, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC) Fifty-fifty on design, but having to scroll down pages to find info previously featured on the left is a no no</li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Anthony_DiPierro&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Anthony DiPierro (page does not exist)">Anthony DiPierro</a> Using "font-size" is a terrible idea.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Reddi" title="User:Reddi">JDR</a> ... pls consider frmt usefulness ... <i>recent changes</i> to items in "new and improved" version gives nothing meaningful to watch ... (classic version gave a nice list of related article changes)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Infrogmation" title="User:Infrogmation">Infrogmation</a> 21:23, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC) Somewhat prefer the old version. IMO, keep it simple and quick loading.</li></ol></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Other" data-mw-thread-id="h-Other-Straw_poll"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Other-Straw_poll"></span>Other<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Other-Straw_poll"></span></h3></div> <ul><li><ol><li>This new one is amazing!... (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ik1tzo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ik1tzo (page does not exist)">Piero Pirrone</a>) 08:09, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</li> <li>I agree w Piero. I like it the way it is <b>now</b>, and I can't tell where to vote for that. <a href="/wiki/User:Sam_Spade" title="User:Sam Spade">Sam Spade</a> 10:16, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC) <ul><li>Which are you voting for? You've listed yourself (almost) under the <i>old</i> version! (If you just mean to comment, then remove the "*#" markup and it'll be clearer.) -- <a href="/wiki/User:Toby_Bartels" title="User:Toby Bartels">Toby Bartels</a> 08:17, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</li></ul></li></ol></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Piero, not sure which one you're voting for, please move your vote to the correct place. <a href="/wiki/User:Dori" title="User:Dori">Dori</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dori" title="User talk:Dori">Talk</a> 13:57, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Change_to_the_worse_+_remedies" data-mw-thread-id="h-Change_to_the_worse_+_remedies"><span id="Change_to_the_worse_.2B_remedies"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Change_to_the_worse_+_remedies"></span>Change to the worse + remedies<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Change_to_the_worse_+_remedies"></span></h2></div> <p>I think that the new desing is change to the worse. First: it doesn't looks well in 800*600 resolution. Second: former design was more compact without unnecessary distractions (like <i>Featured article</i>). I especially enjoyed <i>Selected Articles</i> - you can glance & click to what interests you and it was short and orderly. Even on 800*600 one could view <i>Selected Articles</i> and headers of <i>Encyclopedia</i> and <i>Community</i>. Third: on former everything seemed in place - now the <b>real</b> content is left at the bottom behind <i>Featured Article</i> and <i>In the news</i> sections. </p><p>If you want to keep new design anyway, I think that remedies should include: </p> <ul><li>restoring <i>Selected Articles</i> on top as it was supposed to be quintessence of Wikipedia. <i>In the news</i>, <i>recently featured</i>, <i>Holidays</i>, <i>Obituaries</i> and <i>A day in history</i> could go there in form of pure links (wiki is not news portal anyway, is it?)</li> <li>moving <i>Featured article</i> (with somewhat shrinked photo) to the right column with <i>Did you know</i> below it - these are not terribly important things and so should be kept in supporting right column not main central one). Also <i>Featured article</i> text is too long - it should be about half that lenght.</li> <li>The central, widest column should be occupied by <i>Browse Wikipedia by topic</i> as it is IMHO most important thing on the page - a set of entry points to Wikipedia system.</li> <li>While it seems good to move Community thingies to separate page, somewhat more of it should be on main page. It could be one-liner of links in their own color box like: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Main_Page" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Main Page">Community</a>: New to Wikipedia? - Guidelines - Policies - <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump" title="Wikipedia:Village pump">Village Pump</a> - <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us" title="Wikipedia:Contact us">Contact us</a><br/><a href="/wiki/User:Forseti" title="User:Forseti">Forseti</a> 08:50, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</li></ul></li></ul> <dl><dd>I agree with Forseti's comments, and worry that the community has been lost in the new design. The "Welcome newcomers" is two clicks away, as is "About Wikipedia". Featured article and did you know, both non time sensitive "features" should be grouped together, and made smaller. The topics should be back up top. Wikipedia is a reference site first, and a news site second. <a href="/wiki/User:Fuzheado" title="User:Fuzheado">Fuzheado</a> 08:55, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Um, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Welcome,_newcomers" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers">Welcome</a> is the first link, as well as the first word]] on the page. In my opinion, Wikipedia is a website first, a refrence second, a news site somewhere way down the list. With that in mind, we need to understand our market and make sure we grab the reader so they come back a second time. The old page didn't do that, just about the opposite, really. <a href="/wiki/User:Gentgeen" title="User:Gentgeen">Gentgeen</a> 09:41, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>You can't reasonbly expect anyone to click on that first "Welcome" link. They're in reading mode and will likely never go back to visit it. <a href="/wiki/User:Fuzheado" title="User:Fuzheado">Fuzheado</a> 09:44, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd>I made <a href="/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/Temp9&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Main Page/Temp9 (page does not exist)">Main Page/Temp9</a> so you could see what I mean. Sorry, I haven't much time so it's done only as illustration and needs to be filled up. I merged several Temps and Tests for this. But of course <i>Featured Article</i> needs to be shortened. Comments please.<br/><a href="/wiki/User:Forseti" title="User:Forseti">Forseti</a> 11:15, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="New_design" data-mw-thread-id="h-New_design"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-New_design"></span>New design<span data-mw-comment-end="h-New_design"></span></h2></div> <p>I like the new look of the main page. Congratulations and thank you, it is a huge improvement. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Baldhur" title="User:Baldhur">Baldhur</a> 11:13, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="{{msg:itn-test}}" data-mw-thread-id="h-{{msg:itn-test}}"><span id=".7B.7Bmsg:itn-test.7D.7D"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-{{msg:itn-test}}"></span>{{msg:itn-test}}<span data-mw-comment-end="h-{{msg:itn-test}}"></span></h2></div> <p>How did you create the {{msg:itn-test}} tags that were used for the test page <a href="/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/Test8&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Main Page/Test8 (page does not exist)">Main Page/Test8</a>? <a href="/wiki/User:Bevo" title="User:Bevo">Bevo</a> 09:35, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MediaWiki_namespace" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MediaWiki namespace">Wikipedia:MediaWiki namespace</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Sverdrup" title="User:Sverdrup">—Sverdrup</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sverdrup" title="User talk:Sverdrup">(talk)</a> 14:29, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Great" data-mw-thread-id="h-Great"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Great"></span>Great<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Great"></span></h2></div> <p>This new frontpage is much more attractive! And it's a great idea to add a sample article... It's nice to read about other topics of ours without looking for it! Definitely, I love it! </p> <pre><a href="/wiki/User:Pycoucou" title="User:Pycoucou">pycoucou</a> </pre> <ul><li>I loooove it! --<a href="/wiki/User:Merovingian" title="User:Merovingian">Ryan and/or Mero</a> 12:33, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)</li></ul> <p>Can we have something about carnival day? (brazil) <a href="/wiki/User:Perl" title="User:Perl">Perl</a> 13:35, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p><p><br/> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="New_page_design_is_a_great_improvement" data-mw-thread-id="h-New_page_design_is_a_great_improvement"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-New_page_design_is_a_great_improvement"></span>New page design is a great improvement<span data-mw-comment-end="h-New_page_design_is_a_great_improvement"></span></h2></div> <p>That's my opinion. -- <a href="/wiki/User:The_Anome" title="User:The Anome">The Anome</a> 01:26, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page/Archive_14&oldid=390085188">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page/Archive_14&oldid=390085188</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks catlinks-allhidden" data-mw="interface"></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 11 October 2010, at 16:09<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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