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[[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 19:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC) = Comment on recent controversy = ==To keep as is with little change== At the [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts]] page [[User:Oicumayberight]] asked that project participants comment on this article. So, I comment... *The '''process''' of image development is very real in graphics and visual arts. It's part of the "concept to completion" thing. *Use the word "process" in the lead ::'''Image development''' is the process of developing graphics (mainly but not exclusively [[computer graphic]]s) for use in [[media]]. *About references, a few should suffice. (Seems to me I've seen the term most in help-wanted ads, and not just to describe the brand/image development aspect.) [[User:Sparkit|--sparkit]][[User_talk:sparkit|<small><sup>TALK</sup></small>]] 01:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC) ==To change it considerably== * Re: image development, also synonym for photographic process (paper development) for two hundred years now. Maybe there should be a disambiguation [[user:Alf_photoman | <span style="font-family:Amazone BT;">Alf</span><span style="font-family:Aldine401 BT; font-size:small;"><sup>Photoman</sup></span>]] 19:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC) ::There is a disambiguation. "[[Image development]]" now links to the disambiguation first. If there is any controversy over this article, it may have been originally due to the fact that this was the first article titled "image development". The general term is now the disambiguation page. There is no longer competition over term usage on the wikipedia. The only arguments left seem to be for the purpose of testing wikipedia rules or arguing for the sake of arguing. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 19:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC) ::: The debate is because none of the statements in this article are attributable to reliable sources and it subsequently advances a host of dubious opinions. Besides, in this light, the title implies photography is not a "visual art" --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 20:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC) :::: you've got something there... [[user:Alf_photoman | <span style="font-family:Amazone BT;">Alf</span><span style="font-family:Aldine401 BT; font-size:small;"><sup>Photoman</sup></span>]] 20:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC) :::Is this the reason why you have a problem with the article? Davemon, what statements are you assuming imply that photography is not a visual art? [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 21:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC) :I just reworded the disambiguation page, if that's where the implication Davemon was referring to was coming from. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 22:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC) :: The implication comes from the fit between the broad, generalistic title of the article "..(visual arts)" and the narrow ("preperation of graphics for media") content. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 22:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC) : Sometimes I should just keep my mouth shut, and this is evidently one of those cases because I am considered by one of the parties as expert in the field, which naturally could lead to even more controversy. Before getting into the merits of the article by itself let us go into the terminology, where I suspect that “Image“ is not disputed. If we take a dictionary we find under develop: #. To set forth or make clear by degrees or in detail. #. To make visible. #. To treat with an agent to cause the appearance of color. #. To subject to chemicals to make images on photographic film (paper) visible. (Webster‘s) As far as the term is related to images. Thus we can conclude that any of the terms used in the article is applicable. In practice, as far as I am aware the term is generally used, besides in Photography, in the creation of computer images and coloring of advertising images. The only part of this article that may be cause of debate is: (quote) Because the word "image" can have more than one shade of meaning, the term "image development" may be confused with the development process for the corporate image called branding or positioning. Ironically, both uses of the term may apply in the same profession such as the advertising agency using graphic image development in the process of developing the corporate image of a client. The term is also in contrast to "image editing" which excludes the capturing of images and creation of images from scratch by sculpting or rendering. The term "image development" may have emerged due to the lack of an alternative umbrella term with as broad of a scope. Some may find the scope of the term debatable, depending on its usage in context. (unquote) In my opinion it should only be used if there are solid references available in literature, and if available, every quotation should be clearly marked and attributed, which as of now it is not. [[user:Alf_photoman | <span style="font-family:Amazone BT;">Alf</span><span style="font-family:Aldine401 BT; font-size:small;"><sup>Photoman</sup></span>]] 22:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC) :Are you saying that the term should only be used if it's attributable, or that the article (or this section of the article) should only use attributable POV? [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 22:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC) :: Both, it should not be our POV because we are a tertiary source, therefore we don't have an opinion. But there is nothing wrong with showing someone else's opinion as long as it clearly attributable and, if there is a dissenting opinion, to include it [[user:Alf_photoman | <span style="font-family:Amazone BT;">Alf</span><span style="font-family:Aldine401 BT; font-size:small;"><sup>Photoman</sup></span>]] 22:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC) : Alf, I'm not sure I agree with your breakdown of what term is being applied to what, and the conculsions you have drawn. What I think what you're saying is that the term "development" is being applied to "image", so therefore the meanings in the article are allowable. With this definition a nearly infinite number of additional meanings would be required to make the article comprehensive. : However, what I see in the article is that a term "image development" is being applied to "developing graphics for use in media", which is a much narrower definition, and one which is not supported by literature. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 22:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC) :: I remember the term being used once by Linotype/Hell referring to the development of their image print plates. I am not sure if it was because something was lost in translation from German to English. In any case if there is literature showing this term we can use it without a problem. Our problem starts when we cannot attribute it. As for the infinite number of meanings ... yes could be, and if you have a non-trivial source for any meaning you can include that definition (and we don't have to like it) [[user:Alf_photoman | <span style="font-family:Amazone BT;">Alf</span><span style="font-family:Aldine401 BT; font-size:small;"><sup>Photoman</sup></span>]] 23:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC) ::: Understood. So what do you think should happen to the current set of meanings which are not attributed to non-trivial sources? --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 08:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC) :::: Find a source or remove them until you have source [[user:Alf_photoman | <span style="font-family:Amazone BT;">Alf</span><span style="font-family:Aldine401 BT; font-size:small;"><sup>Photoman</sup></span>]] 14:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC) ==Rewrite considerations== ===First Line / Definition === Davemon I'm surprised. All this time I thought you wanted the article deleted because you thought the term was too broad. It appears now that you think the term is too narrow. Why didn't you just edit the opening when you initially had that problem with it? [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 23:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC) : Ok. I suggest we ammend the first line to "'''Image Development''' is the process of developing images." That would seem to accurately reflect its scope. Then all we need is some citations to back up all the other statements in the article. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 08:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC) ::That's funny. Be serious. Now that I know your real interest in this, I'm trying to work with you here. ::The disambiguation page does more than what a one short sentence article would do. The specific use of the term is relevant to visual arts. I amended that sentence in the disambiguation page. I'm guessing you probably don't think anything more than a disambiguation page is needed, but the AfD vote to keep validates the need for an article even if the article needs work to be encyclopedic. I would settle for a disambiguation page, but I'm afraid that it would be an endlessly growing list of individual image development skills and combinations of skills. People often read the disambiguation links as mutually exclusive, which is not the case with an umbrella term. ::I can change the part that says "for use in media" to "using visual art skills for any use". This would be a narrower scope than the disambiguation page but a broader scope than "media". I know you have a problem with the "mainly" computer graphics" part. We could move that to another sentence that says. "Although visual art skills include [[media (arts)|traditional media]] and analog photography, the term is mainly (but not exclusively) used to describe computer-aided visual arts." The reason for the statement is that there is more sources showing that. This also answers the question as to why the term is seldom heard outside of that application to describe the skills. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 09:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC) ::: I agree "'''Image development''' is the process of developing images using visual art skills for any use." seems reasonable. The "mainly computer-aided visual arts" thing would need to be cited - as I've said before the big players in this arena Adobe, Corel don't use this term, if it is used in this way, then it should be easy to provide sources. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 11:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC) ::::There is no need to wait for Adobe and Corel to approve of or bless the language. Adobe and Corel make tools. We are talking about skills here, not the tools used in the skills. Adobe and Corel may be able to monopolize software, but they can't monopolize visual arts. If they had their way, they would probably redefine the skill names to match the title of their software packages. Nobody would be photo editing, but instead [[photoshopping]]. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 19:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC) ::::: Well, it's not used by any of the major Art Schools of the world either. Unless you have sources which say otherwise. As for monopolies, [[The Gimp]] doesn't use the phrase either. If you have sources, supply them, and the "mainly computer-aided visual arts" idea can stay, otherwise it's just another unpublished synthesis of published material. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 09:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC) ::::::This is not about who gets to decide what language is proper. It's about citing the meaning and scope of the term. The reason why the term is emerging is simple. For lack of a better umbrella term. That means that the term will continue to grow as the lines between image development techniques continue to blur, unless someone comes up with a better term that catches on. It's not going to stop emerging just because a big player doesn't acknowledge it. ::::::BTW, here's [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22GIMP%22%2B%22image+development%22&btnG=Google+Search 2500 links] with "GIMP"+"image development", [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Adobe%22%2B%22image+development%22&btnG=Search 14,000] with "Adobe"+"image development", and [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Corel%22%2B%22image+development%22&btnG=Search 1600] with "Corel"+"image development". I know there is some usage of the corporate image mixed in, but those are the exception. I don't know what you consider major schools, but here are some that use the term. *[http://www.newpaltz.edu/graduate/School%20of%20Fine%20and%20Performing%20Arts.pdf] This document uses the term in relation to painting, not "mainly computer-aided visual arts". --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 13:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC) *[http://www.truman.edu/userfiles/catalog/FineArts.pdf] *[http://www2.colum.edu/about/Catalog.PDF] *[http://www.pcad.edu/F06CE.pdf] *[http://www.bartonccc.edu/art/ProgramFlyerArt0207.pdf] *[http://landmark.edu/downloads/lmc_bulletin_2006.pdf] *[http://iam.colum.edu/DNN/TechAndInfo/StudyGuide/tabid/62/Default.aspx] *[http://www.pcad.edu/mural/certif_program.html] *[http://www.foothill.edu/printmaking/index.php]. This document uses the term in relation to print-making, not "mainly computer-aided visual arts". This is just scratching the surface. ::::::It's not synthesis to collect useful information in an article. Synthesis would be advancing a new position based on various authors published positions. Citing term usage in context is showing what the term means, in that publication, not adding new meaning. ::::::: That's exactly what synthesis is. [[WP:SYN | The precise analysis must have been published by a reliable source in relation to the topic before it can be published in Wikipedia]]. i.e. someone, somewhere must have actually said that "image development is mainly computer-aided visual arts", otherwise it's just your analysis, based on your own research. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 13:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC) ::::::::I didn't consider "mainly but not exclusively" a precise analysis. I figured the number of sources pointing that way was evidence enough and people would get confused if they didn't see sources pointing to traditional media usage. But if you think that POV is problematic, we can delete it. It's not that important. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 19:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC) ::::::::: OK, lets remove that then. Whether the analysis in itself is precise or vague isn't really in question, it's whether the analysis is precisely what has been published elsewhere. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 13:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC) ===Second line "Since the computer..."=== The next sentance is also problematic for similar reasons: " Since the computer has merged skills such as illustrating, photography, photo editing, 3-D modeling, and handicraft, creative professionals may find "image development" a more flexible umbrella term to avoid over-specifying or limiting options in the design process." Specifically, we need a single source which puts forward the analysis that the phrase image development is used: * by creative professionals * because, due to, or subsequent to the widespread use of computers * in order to avoid over-specifying or limiting options I've hunted around and can't seem to find any. That "image development" is used by US educational establishments in the visual arts fields certainly seems a reasonably factual statement to make, but any indication of historical determinants or intentionality of use in that situation would need to be attributed. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 13:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC) :You've already made it clear that you want everything sourced, including POV. That's just not realistic on the wikipedia, especially with art-related topics. Do you disagree with the POV of any of those points? [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 01:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC) :: I can't see a "point of view" here because that would require someone to actually hold the position being advanced and there is no evidence of it. Some people might agree with this original analysis, some might disagree, but that's totally irrelevant if the only document advancing the position is this one. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 18:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC) ::: Even if this is the only document "advancing the position" as you put it, the POV is in the document. All wikipedia legalities aside, it's a question of if you agree or disagree. If you agree with the position, then it's just an unsourced or under-sourced position according to you. Then it's just a matter of finding sources that stand up to your level of scrutiny, which may take many months. If you don't agree with the position, then a contrary position is warranted. Unsourced or under-sourced alone is not enough of a reason to delete. You'd have to delete [[:Category:Articles lacking sources|80% of all wikipedia content]] if that were the case. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 20:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC) :::: I'm not sure I understand your objections to my suggested edit. As far as I can see there is a statement being made about a theoretical origin and motivation for use of a term - whether I agree or disagree with this theory is not important. By way of an example: it doesn't matter if I agree with the theory of [[evolution]] or with [[creationism]] - it is easily proven that they do reflect the POV of some people in the world - some of whom have had their POV published in reliable sources. Nobody at all holds the theory stated in this article ("Since computers etc..") to be true. The content should be removed until such a time as it can be attributed, if that takes months then what does that matter? at least in the meantime the article will accurately reflect the current state of research on the subject. Oic, I fear we may have reached a stale-mate position again, shall we seek a [[WP:3O|third opinion]] on this specific issue in order to move the article forward? --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 21:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC) :::::What matters is that POV (including under-sourced POV) is the glue that holds wikipedia articles together. It's what sets wikipedia apart from other online refernces. If you need a third opinion, look no further than the [[WP:POV]] essay. Perhaps you need a third opinion on this statement from the essay: '''"The policy does not mean that all the POV of all the Wikipedia editors have to be represented."''' If every POV on wikipedia had to be represented, then the wikipedia would be rather empty compared to other online references. Articles start off mostly under-sourced POV. Eventually, they improve over time with reference checking and research. If there were no under-sourced POV, there would be nothing to research or improve on. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 19:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC) :::::: You seem to be suggesting that wikipedia is a place for original research to be published, then discussed and researched as long as the analysis of that research gets called "POV". Personally I'd rather find a source then write an article about it, including proper attribution, than trying to advance my own theories or "POV". I'll request a 3O on the statement. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 21:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC) ::::::: Note the difference between unsourced material and original research: '''Unsourced material''' is material ''not yet'' attributed to a reliable source. '''Original research''' is material that ''cannot be'' attributed to a reliable source. POV may eventually get attributed. Again unsourced or under-sourced alone is no reason to delete unless it's controversial, offensive, or just plain inaccurate. Give it some time. Maybe someone will find a source. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 21:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC) :::::::: It can stay on the talk page, there's no need to delete it entirely, and if someone can attribute the opinion it should go into the article. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 21:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC) : It's showing existing meaning in the same way that a [[glossary]] would. A new position would be something to the effect of saying "Image development requires more skill than page layout" or "Image development can only mean visual arts". A collection of information is not synthesis unless it's equated to new information. The meaning of image development is not new. If it were new it would be meaningless in those publications. :The policy does not state that all the POV of all the Wikipedia editors have to be represented. Almost every article on the wikipedia has some published POV and some wikipedia editor [[WP:POV]]. This is one of those articles that needs POV as much as it needs sources. As long as nobody disputes the POV, it's not a problem. :This article has plenty of disambiguation surrounding it, so that nobody would accidently find the wrong context of the term. The article has a tag showing that the references are not perfect. The article has plenty of POV as any art-related article would have. The POV is neutral. No real artist expects a citation for every POV statement of an art-related article. No reasonable artist would look further than a dictionary if they doubted the scope of the term. :The only thing the references show is the word used in context. There probably isn't any reference that defines the term because the meaning is obvious when used in context. Like most words and terms, the meaning is defined by the context. But some times one has to read the whole paragraph, chapter, or book to get the full context. Sometimes you have to be an image developer or at least familiar with it to understand the context. The only time the meaning is not totally obvious is when it's just listed with other skills in a small document like a job description. That's why this article is useful. This article points users to references so they can make their own judgment about the scope of the term if they don't trust the article. There are hundreds of books on the subject of image development that don't call it that. Most of the time, a specific subset of image development will be used. But every now and then, someone will use the umbrella term, as shown by the references. I will reword some of the statements so they match the references a little closer and stand up to the level of scrutiny which most users would consider trolling. You have to give this article time to develop. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 12:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC) ::'''Third opinion'''. It seems as though two writers on this article have had quite a few disputes. Maybe it is best if both of you leave the article alone awhile so that you can cool off? The article has already been protected as a result of disputes. Personally I think there's nothing wrong with the sentence. It's informative. ::[[User:Seraphim Whipp|Seraphim Whipp]] 22:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC) ::: Thanks for your input. I'd agree it would be an informative sentence if it reflected established knowledge rather than the authors original opinion. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 08:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC) === Third opinion === [[WP:A]] provides: ''Editors should provide attribution for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. The burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material.''. The claim that computers resulted in term "image development" has been challenged and thus should be supported. It is the responsibility of the editor who want the article to make that claim to substantiate it before it is included in the article. If no reliable source for that claim can be found, it should be removed. -- '''[[User:Selket|Selket]]''' <sup>[[User_talk:Selket|Talk]]</sup> 22:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC) ::That's not exactly what's stated in the article. But I appreciate your feedback. If that's what you get from reading the statement, then maybe it should be reworded. The reference to computer usage seems to be a stumbling block for Davemon and now you. There is evidence of the term being used with traditional art media. The only reason computers are mentioned is because that seems to be when the term is most often applied. I have no idea if it was used before the computer merged skills. There is no doubt that the term is useful when describing merged skills and computer-related image development techniques that don't fall neatly into one of those traditional visual arts categories, which may explain the why it appears to be used more frequently in computer-relate visual arts. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 00:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC) I do not think I understand the argument about POV being made. Articles must be written from a neutral point of view per [[WP:NPOV]]. If the statement is POV that is another reason to delete it, not a justification for a lack of reliable sources. Wikipedia articles should never be used for, "advancing [a] position." The best understanding I can find for the POV argument is that the claim being made is the editor's POV, and thus, no sources exist. If this is the case, the statement is [[WP:OR|original research]] and should be removed. -- '''[[User:Selket|Selket]]''' <sup>[[User_talk:Selket|Talk]]</sup> 22:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC) :Thanks for your input. I hope this helps clarify matters and we can now move the article forward. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 18:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC) ::I don't see a wikipedia policy against, POV. Wikipedia is full of POV. This issue here is one of judging the difference between POV and OR. It seems that it's only considered OR when it's challenged. But what's the point of challenging statements that are both harmless and common sense. If that is the case, anyone can challenge 80% of the material on the wikipedia. There wouldn't be much wikipedia left if we did. It's one thing to request sources for debatable statements. It's another thing to expect every statement in every article to be sourced. It's yet another thing to reject sources provided based on a few sentences read from the sources. ::I personally don't even care that much about the article. I could just as easily link to the disambiguation page. The reason I bring up the POV issue here is because this article should be the least of any worries about OR on the wikipedia. The material isn't controversial and is sourced, even if those sources are not easily understood as supporting the article by the casual observer. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 00:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC) :::The Wikipedia policy on having a [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]] is one of the two core content policies. The other one is [[WP:A|attribution]]. Having unsourced POV statements in an article violates both of the core content policies. You cannot include POV in the article voice. Any POV needs to be attributed to a [[WP:RS|reliable source]]. Otherwise, it is just your POV, which is the same thing as [[WP:OR|original research]]. If you find the sourcing of articles elsewhere on Wikipedia questionable, I would encourage you to challenge them. But you would do better to focus on bringing this page in compliance with core Wikipedia policies. [[User:Grouse|Grouse]] 09:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC) ::::[[WP:POV]] (even if it is just an essay) does say: ::::"Hard facts are really rare. What we most commonly encounter are opinions from people (POVs). Inherently, because of this, most articles on Wikipedia are full of POVs." ::::It's not really a problem sentence to begin with; it's not like it absolutely needs a source. Not '''every''' statement on wikipedia needs a source. I don't think the sentence is a POV anyway. ::::[[User:Seraphim Whipp|Seraphim Whipp]] 21:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC) :::::Yes, as you point out, and as it says at the top, [[WP:POV]] "is '''not''' a policy or guideline," but [[WP:NPOV]] is. It cannot be used to justify violations of [[WP:NPOV]], one of the two content policies of Wikipedia. I think that this statement does need a source. To be honest, I think it is dubious, and probably just [[WP:OR|original research]]. It is the burden of the editor who wants to add/keep the statement to provide a source for it, especially when it is being challenged by multiple editors. :::::You say the statement is not really POV. No, it is OR. The original author is the one who mystifyingly keeps claiming that it is POV and somehow exempt from the OR rules. [[User:Grouse|Grouse]] 21:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC) :::::::::Nobody claims that POV is exempt from OR rules. POV isn't considered OR just because someone doesn't like the sources. It's also not a good wikipedia practice to remove POV just because it's under-sourced. Unless the statement is harmful, controversial, or just plain inaccurate, removing the accurate POV with questionable sources shouldn't be the priority over removing less accurate POV or OR from other articles with no sources. All it will do is slow the progress of wikipedia to the point of inferiority to other online sources. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 00:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC) ::::::::::It's not that someone doesn't like the sources&mdash;it's that there are no sources. {{User|Oicumayberight}} has previously provided citations to book pages for some of these statements that did not actually support the statements they were supposed to. When {{User|Davemon}} actually went to the trouble of finding these books and revealing this, Oicumayberight's response was to [[WP:ATTACK|attack]] Davemon and call him a "troll." This behavior makes it hard to believe when the user claims that there are sources for the conclusions being made, but he or she just hasn't found them yet. ::::::::::It is very much Wikipedia policy to remove unsourced material. It is sensible to discuss it first, or add one of the [[Wikipedia:Template messages/Disputes#For inline article placement]] for a while. If the editor wanting to retain the material cannot provide a source, then it must be removed. :::::::::::If you feel the policy is detrimental to Wikipedia, you should discuss it at [[Wikipedia talk:Attribution]], rather than here. Here you should follow the policy and either provide sources for your statements or stop objecting when they are removed. [[User:Grouse|Grouse]] 10:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC) ::::::::::::I did provide sources. I'm only objecting to over-use and what I call misuse of rules on this particular article. And it is just this article. If you look at the history of the one policing this article, you see the double standard. ::::::::::::Rules should be used as a guide, not as a weapon against harmless articles to [[WP:POINT|illustrate a point]]. Enough has been said about this practice in the [[WP:TROLL]] policy. If the content is controversial, harmful or inaccurate, that should be dealt with first, and then apply rules for what cannot be resolved. Rules for the sake of rules is just plain counter-productive legalism. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 20:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC) ::::::::::::: It's not impossible to fix the inaccuracies of this article whilst also following the common sense guidelines of policy. It would seem that consensus has been reached to remove the "Since the computers..." statement and use of the term and to reword the first sentence to remove references computers and make it more generic. Shall we get the block lifted so we can do that? --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 16:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC) ::::::::::::::Does this mean you are willing to accept the POV in the article until there is evidence of inaccuracy? I thought we had only reached consensus on the first sentence. We agreed to drop the "mainly but not exclusively computers" and change "for use in media" to "using visual art skills for any use". Besides the issues with POV and references, what else did you feel was inaccurate? Maybe we should make a sandbox version of the article that we can agree on word-for-word. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 18:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC) ::::::::::::::: You seem to be saying that you need to have veto on any changes made to this article, even when the proposed edits are in line with policy and have been supported by multiple editors? I've started a [[Talk:Image development (visual arts)/sandbox|sandbox here]], with the currently agreed content and a minor rewrite of one other statement, I think its a good description and opening. --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 16:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC) ::::::Remove the damn thing then! Lol. ::::::[[User:Seraphim Whipp|Seraphim Whipp]] 21:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC) :::::::I can't, the page has been protected because certain people have been removing and reverting rather than discussing. ;) [[User:Grouse|Grouse]] 21:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC) ::::::::Oh yeah...*d'oh*. ::::::::[[User:Seraphim Whipp|Seraphim Whipp]] 22:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC) == Suggested Edit == {{tl|Editprotected}} Following the above debate, and sandbox work, can someone please change the opening paragraph to the following: ''Image development'' is the process of developing images for any use. It is often both a synonym for a specific process and a label for a unique combination of processes. and add the following tag to the top: <nowiki>{{Synthesis|article|date=April 2007}}</nowiki> :I'm going to unprotect the page, so you will be able to edit the article yourself. By the way, please remember to sign your posts. [[User:CMummert|CMummert]] · <small>[[User talk:CMummert|talk]]</small> 01:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC) == Anonymous Editors Essay== OK, first off, I don't edit/talk much in Wikipedia, so I'm not much used to posting. If I screw something up, my bad. Second off, I'm a 15-year-old kid that likes to somewhat pepper her speech with slang; sorry, but I'd appreciate it if my words weren't just brushed off because of that. Third off, remember that anonymous voter to 'keep' a while ago that was accused of possibly being a puppet, and therefore apparently being thoroguhly invalid? That was me too, thanks for the accusation. I also greatly appreciate being called some sort of misinformed victim to this article's information, that was just great. Moving on. OK, I can see the points that Davemon is making, and I can see why people may agree with him. But I also see the flip side much better, and no matter how I look at it, I find that this argument is a bit... ridiculous. Yes, the points made might be valid, POV this or sources that, Original research blah responsibility so therefore every article that doesn't have thoroughly reliable secondary ''and'' primary sources and yadda yadda yadda should immediately be deleted until the editors have the means to write something whose quality is publish-worthy, blah blah. But let's take a moment and look at this both realistically and practically, especially compared to the bigger picture. First off, screw the details that keep being kicked at here and how unreliable and crappy and misleading this article apparently is, how bad is the article really, in practical terms, for the casual viewer? For the people who look at this article, how much is this article going to 'poison their minds' with this ridiculously badly sourced blasphemy? Please, ''please'' note the heavy sarcasm inlaid within my words. No, even though such-and-such big-hot company doesn't use the term, or such-and-such art universities or blah prestigious blah blah places don't have the term in their site, etc., the term is still used. It's used, it's recognizable, and really, is there anyway to ''disprove'' it's usage? Not really. One other thing, how reliable is Wikipedia as a whole in the first place? There are a very small amount of articles that are good enough to follow every single one of Wikipedia's policies, and all of those few articles took effort, time, and usually more than one person. EVERYONE knows that information you find on Wikipedia is highly questionable and should be double-checked if it's something important. No sensible person would, say, write their English essay based on information from Wikipedia, or look to Wikipedia for anything of high importance. Most people, if they want to check for how reliable an article is, check the talk page and gauge it's reliability like that or in other ways (and anybody who looks at ''this'' talk page will surely find the article a question mark). While it's good to have standards, and Wikipedia's policies should try to be followed as best as possible, putting articles under such hard, merciless scrutiny is thoroughly counter-productive, hair-wrenching, and a waste of time on all parties. I spend lots of time looking at lots of slang words or words that are only used by small circles or communities on the internet, and most of those articles are highly undersourced, badly written, unprofessional, POV, etc.. But I don't attempt to delete them, nor do I think they should be deleted, because I don't expect that much more from Wikipedia; what I expect is improvement with time, and a true attempt to better the article, as well as at least the stuff that I come looking for. And the stuff I'm looking for is usually some sort of basic definition/explanation of what the term means, and hopefully some related external or internal links. See, this is how making a good article usually works, from what I can see. Because this is how things usually work with lots of projects and the like. First you start the article out, write down what you know, what you think you might know, random things that you think helps with that, etc.. The article is going to be crappy, badly sourced, random, disorganized, POV, etc.. You put a tab on it, like a stub tab or a clean-up tab or whatever you feel it needs (or other people put up these tabs for you as they see the article themselves). Maybe more people come, and they add what they know, or they might take away what they know shouldn't be there, or they ask questions that aren't answered. Gradually, there might be a couple people that take actual active interest in this (now) semi-crappy article and set out to actively improve it rather than just add what they know and then leave. People think it's POV, they try and scrap the POV, people want more links, they add links, people question if the article is merged, they discuss it, someone comes up and says the article is crappy and should be scrapped and give reasons, they try to fix the reasons or add those reasons to a list of things to improve as they can, etc.. But if we worked the way you guys are trying to do with ''this'' article, those articles would be scrapped before anything good could be done to them, because their POV makes them unworthy of Wikipedia or they don't have sources, and that obviously shows that the term doesn't exist or whatever it might be. Things shouldn't all just be deleted until they're 'good enough' for Wikipedia. I mean, frankly, right now Wikipedia can't exactly be choosy. Their biggest contributors are a bunch of stangers from all over the world that are trying to make informative, comprehensive articles on everything and anything, without professional help, pay, or regular hours. And Wikipedia is still rather young. Davemon, while you seem to care very much about how this article should be deleted as soon as possible due to all of its apparently very many miscellaneous flaws, that effort and time could be ''much'' better spent on an article that actually truly matters. An umbrella term like this isn't that important and umbrella terms are usually more on the slangyish sort of side than the officially used term side. Not to mention that even if this article 'misinforms' people about the nature of the term, there really isn't exactly much damage or misinformation going on, especially since the article doesn't specifically state that image development is a term exclusive to computer graphics. One more point, there's a lot of talk about 'Original Research' and 'POV' and all that, but... well... it's an article about an art-related umbrella term. How much controversy could there be about something so totally neutral and small? Original Research? Maybe if it were something that someone would be actively interested in posting their original research on, such as, say, some science-related article. But really, what sort of ulterior motive could be found in trying to write a relatively informative and accurate article on the definition of 'image development'? Why would someone actively try and make up their own new term with 'Original Research'? Etc.? I imagine that this post will be torn to pieces next time I come to this page? This sort of thing usually comes to a stalemate from my experience, one side pushing the technical correctness and the like and the other side trying to point out the more practical and common-sensical (yes, sensical, my vocabulary is shot today), and both sides unable to come to any sort of agreement. But that's just my own personal experience. I signed my post this time, but I'm not logged in right now so I think it might just show my IP address or something (I don't think I remember my username on Wikipedia anymore). [[User:71.176.140.104|71.176.140.104]] 16:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC) == Illustration relevance == [[Image:Tablet mouse.svg|200px|right]] This picture is illustrative of an unfounded "mostly computers" bias. A more appropriate illustration should include a wider variety of "image development" tools, perhaps there is one from the same se we could use? --[[User:Davemon|Davémon]] 18:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC) == Contested info moved to talk == *All of which is individually referred to as image development, or is summed up by image development.<nowiki>{{Fact|date=April 2007}}</nowiki> *The term is also used to distinguish the process of '''preparing elements''' for use in media (e.g. [[photograph]]s, [[illustration]]s, [[chart]]s, [[collage]]s) from the process of '''composing elements''' (e.g. [[page layout]], [[slicing (web design)|image slicing]] in [[web development]], [[film editing]], [[desktop publishing]]) to a single presentation piece (e.g. [[brochure]], [[web page]], [[movie]], [[Billboard (advertising)|billboard]], [[poster]])<nowiki>{{Fact|date=April 2007}}.</nowiki> *Because the word "[[image]]" can have more than one shade of meaning, the term "image development" may be confused with the development process for the [[corporate image]] called [[brand]]ing or [[Positioning (marketing)|positioning]].<nowiki>{{Fact|date=April 2007}}</nowiki> *The term "image development" may have emerged due to the lack of an alternative [[umbrella term]] with as broad of a scope<nowiki>{{Fact|date=April 2007}}.</nowiki> *Some may find the scope of the term debatable,<nowiki>{{Views needing attribution|date=April 2007}}</nowiki> depending on its usage in context. Please do not reinsert any of this information without a citation.--<i>[[User:BirgitteSB|<span style="color:#9966FF;">Birgitte</span>]]<span style="color:#CC99CC; font-size:small;">SB</span></i> 21:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC) </textarea><div class="templatesUsed"><div class="mw-templatesUsedExplanation"><p><span id="templatesused">Pages transcluded onto the current version of this page<span class="posteditwindowhelplinks"> (<a href="/wiki/Help:Transclusion" title="Help:Transclusion">help</a>)</span>:</span> </p></div><ul> <li><a href="/wiki/Template:Nowrap" title="Template:Nowrap">Template:Nowrap</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Nowrap&action=edit" title="Template:Nowrap">view source</a>) (protected)</li><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Old_XfD_multi" title="Template:Old XfD multi">Template:Old XfD multi</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Old_XfD_multi&action=edit" title="Template:Old XfD multi">view source</a>) (template editor protected)</li><li><a 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