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</script> <img height="140" width="140" class="blogs-author-image" id="blogs-author-image" onerror="img_error('blogs-author-image', 'http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/global/silhoouette140.gif')" src="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514im_/http://image.guardian.co.uk/artsblog/authorpics/matthew_weaver.jpg" alt=""/> <h2>Latest blog posts</h2> <ul> <li><a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html">Austrian anguish over cellar case</a></li> <li><a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/teachers_strike.html">Debate rages online over teachers' strike</a></li> <li><a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/food_crisis.html">The soaring cost of food</a></li> <li><strong><a href="/web/20080501185514/http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/authors/matthew_weaver/index.html">Show all articles</a></strong></li> </ul> <p></p> <div class="blogs-author-feed"> <a href="/web/20080501185514/http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/authors/matthew_weaver/atom.xml"><img src="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514im_/http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/site_imagery/webfeed.gif" width="57" height="15" alt="Webfeed"/></a><br/> <a href="/web/20080501185514/http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/authors/matthew_weaver/atom.xml"><strong>All Matthew Weaver articles</strong></a> <br/> <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/webfeeds.html">About Webfeeds</a> </div> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article"> <div class="blogs-article-header"> <h1>Austrian anguish over cellar case</h1> <div class="blogs-article-excerpt">Austria's media reacts to another story about horrors in a cellar</div> <div class="blogs-article-date"> April 28, 2008 2:57 PM </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-content"> <p>Agonising <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/kate_connolly/2008/04/austrias_subterranean_shame.html">soul-searching</a> has begun in Austria over the discovery that a man held his <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/28/austria.internationalcrime2">daughter in a cellar</a> for 24 years and fathered her seven children.</p> <p>"<a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://diepresse.com/home/panorama/oesterreich/379991/index.do?direct=380055&_vl_backlink=/home/index.do&selChannel=119">"How could it have happened?'</a> journalists ask neighbours and neighbours ask journalists," the Austrian Die Presse newspaper says.</p> <p>The horrors emerging in Amstetten are the third chilling case involving children in Austria being held captive to be revealed in the last two years. </p> <p>Austrians are still coming to terms with what happened to <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/28/cellar.children">Natascha Kampusch</a>, the teenager who, in 2006, escaped from a dungeon in which she had been kept in for eight years.</p> <p>Serious questions are again being asked of the authorities. David B, on the Kurier newspaper website's talkboards, "<a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://www.kurier.at/interaktiv/meinungen/152803.php"> says</a>: "I can't understand the authorities. </p> <p>"Normally, you have to assume the worst when a person is reported missing - above all when both people have a close relationship to each other. Why didn't the authorities examine the house properly?"</p> <p>Another reader, Richard K, adds: "No one can tell me that nothing came to the attention of the authorities over 24 years ... this case completely stinks."</p> <p>Petra Stuiber, writing in Austria's Standard, <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=3318002">says</a> it is a wider problem for the "very condition of a rich, content society"</a>, not just for the authorities.</p> <p>"How is it possible that no one ever heard or saw anything? How can it be that no one ever asked questions? What does it say about neighbours, relatives and acquaintances, and not least about those people who had anything to do with the family in an official capacity, that the suspect could 'deceive' them all? The whole country must ask itself what is fundamentally going wrong," she says.</p> <p>Spiegel Online, the international website of the German paper, notes that there were <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,550063,00.html">warning signs</a> in the Amstetten case.</p> <p>"The community of Amstetten, including its population, should drown in shame," the Oesterreich newspaper says in an editorial, according to <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSL2727651520080428?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0">Reuters</a>. "The neighbours are very thoroughly looking away.".</p> <p>Until now, <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/ahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Austrian">"Austrian Syndrome"</a> was used to describe a rare form of meningitis. Now, <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3829295.ece">the Times</a> suggests, the phrase could get a whole new meaning.</p> <p><strong>Additional reporting by Paul Owen</strong></p> </div> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-leftbox-headed"> <div class="blogs-article-comments"> <h3>Comments</h3> <div class="blogs-article-comment-form"> <form id="postacomment" name="postacomment" method="post" action="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://users.guardian.co.uk/readercomments/getticket"> <input type="hidden" name="useraction" value="postcomment"/> <input type="hidden" name="url" value="https%3A%2F%2Fblogs.guardian.co.uk%2Fnewmt%2Fcomment_handler.cgi%3Fentry_id=049427"/> <input type="submit" value="Post your comment"/> </form> <p>Please note: In order to post a comment you need to be registered and signed in for Guardian Unlimited blogs. <br/><a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://users.guardian.co.uk/register/1,12904,-1,00.html" target="_WINDOW">You can register here.</a></p> </div> <a name="comments"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1073959"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">Senorkev</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1073959">1073959</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1073959">April 28 15:59</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>Sickening doesn't even begin to describe this. The papers rightly ask questions over how the police could not have stopped this earlier. The fact is that this kind of thing could be happening elsewhere too, UK, Ireland. We just dont know. We have become a society who thinks only for ourselves, paying no attention to others. I mean it beggars belief that for 24 years this sick pervert conducted this flawlessly, never giving anything away. The fact children were born should surely have spurred renewed investigations. His wife HAD to know something but was probably too scared to come forward. I'm sure some people will be saying these type of acts merit the death penalty but it would be too easy a way out for him, and nothing compared to the trauma he inflicted on not one, but eight lives. </p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1073959, was written by Senorkev, at April 28, 2008 3:59 PM, and starts with Sickening doesn't even begin to describe this. The papers rightly ask questions over how the police">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1074095"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">shah786</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1074095">1074095</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1074095">April 28 17:05</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>[Deleted by moderator, along with remarks in response]</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1074095, was written by shah786, at April 28, 2008 5:05 PM, and starts with [Deleted by moderator, along with remarks in response]">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1074102"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">stdk</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1074102">1074102</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1074102">April 28 17:09</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>Minagine the worst thing that your mind can allow you to imagine, in its most depraved moment. The worst thing that a human can do to another human. Well, you can be certain that it is happening, over and over again. <br/> This imprisonment is happening in a town near you. Maybe not 4 people, but it is happening. </p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1074102, was written by stdk, at April 28, 2008 5:09 PM, and starts with Minagine the worst thing that your mind can allow you to imagine, in its most depraved moment. The w">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1074182"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">ariel7</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1074182">1074182</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1074182">April 28 17:52</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>[Deleted by moderator, along with remarks in response]<br/> </p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1074182, was written by ariel7, at April 28, 2008 5:52 PM, and starts with [Deleted by moderator, along with remarks in response] ">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1074278"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">Dingiswayo</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1074278">1074278</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1074278">April 28 19:10</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>I agree with the first (undeleted) post. This has a lot to do with the breakdown of community and the self-focus of modern life. In times past (which were often horrible for their own reasons) a community would have noticed something like this taking place. Now, even if people do notice, often the default is to mind one's own business, to not make trouble. No one thought anything strange when their "missing" daughter supposedly dumped 3 babies on their doorstep? Truly not believable. And to think that she lived 18 years outside only to spend the next 24 in a sunless prison, and her children. It is unthinkable torture. In the words of Marlon Brando as Col. Kurtz, this makes me want to tear my teeth out.</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1074278, was written by Dingiswayo, at April 28, 2008 7:10 PM, and starts with I agree with the first (undeleted) post. This has a lot to do with the breakdown of community and th">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1074368"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">Achim</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1074368">1074368</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1074368">April 28 20:28</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>Something's rotten in the state of Austria...</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1074368, was written by Achim, at April 28, 2008 8:28 PM, and starts with Something's rotten in the state of Austria...">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1074448"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">Raim</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1074448">1074448</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1074448">April 28 21:38</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>New prototype to minimize the Austrian Cellar Syndrome...<br/> (cartoon)<br/> <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://raim.blogspot.com/2008/04/new-prototype.html">http://raim.blogspot.com/2008/04/new-prototype.html</a></p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1074448, was written by Raim, at April 28, 2008 9:38 PM, and starts with New prototype to minimize the Austrian Cellar Syndrome... (cartoon) http://raim.blogspot.com/2008/04">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1074454"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">JillRees</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1074454">1074454</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1074454">April 28 21:43</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>Recently I worked in Austria teaching English in schools. Teachers returning from stints in the schools in Amstetten reported that it was a 'really weird place' with a 'strange atmosphere'. During the World War II Amstetten was a seat of two sub-camps of the Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp. </p> <p>All the time I was in Austria the official line was, this is a great country, we love it here, everyone is happy, no-one wants to leave, there is no crime, everyone is honest and so on. </p> <p>But I found Austria to be provincial and silent. Things are hidden here. In the 7 weeks I spent there, my over-riding impression was that much is hidden. The man's wife and all his neighbours swear they knew nothing, yet the police had an anonymous tip-off. They knew, or they should have known. They have no excuse.</p> <p>Austrians need to take a long hard look at themselves. They need to get this denial of the wrongs in their society out, so that their future will be brighter and they can actively work for the safety and happiness of all their children. </p> <p>I love Austria, and this tale makes me very sad for Amstetten and Austrians, but not surprised.</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1074454, was written by JillRees, at April 28, 2008 9:43 PM, and starts with Recently I worked in Austria teaching English in schools. Teachers returning from stints in the scho">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1074494"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">USlibrarylady</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1074494">1074494</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1074494">April 28 22:15</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p> It would be interesting to know what the father's war record would show. I have no doubt he got a taste of evil as youth. Yes, there is evil. And this is what it looks like.</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1074494, was written by USlibrarylady, at April 28, 2008 10:15 PM, and starts with It would be interesting to know what the father's war record would show. I have no doubt he got a ">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1074498"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">rharrisuk</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1074498">1074498</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1074498">April 28 22:17</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>Having just returned to the UK having spent two years living in Austria I find some of the criticism of the country unfair. Compared to the UK, Austria is an oasis of civilised life - you never feel unsafe on the street, people obey and respect the law and generally crime is virtually non-existent. You are not allowed to make any noise after 10pm and I know (from experience) that neighbours will quickly call the police if you don't comply - so we should not assume that people will not contact the authorities. While clearly this case is disturbing, we should not be quick to make sweeping assumptions about this country</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1074498, was written by rharrisuk, at April 28, 2008 10:17 PM, and starts with Having just returned to the UK having spent two years living in Austria I find some of the criticism">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1074632"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">Pianoforjoy</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1074632">1074632</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1074632">April 29 0:43</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>Deleted by moderator</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1074632, was written by Pianoforjoy, at April 29, 2008 12:43 AM, and starts with Deleted by moderator">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1074835"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">DarkMoonRising</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1074835">1074835</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1074835">April 29 8:41</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>Appalling thought this one case is its pales into insignificance alongside the Jersey abuse case which seems to have received a lot less publicity. Perhaps it easier to deal with individual cases which we can dismiss as the act of evil individual especially when he's a foreigner and we can exercise or own sense of racial and moral superiority. Than deal with the systematic abuse (rape torture, murder) of hundreds of children by dozen of adults over several decades many who had or how hold very senior positions in public life. </p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1074835, was written by DarkMoonRising, at April 29, 2008 8:41 AM, and starts with Appalling thought this one case is its pales into insignificance alongside the Jersey abuse case wh">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1074922"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">JohnCooperClarke</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1074922">1074922</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1074922">April 29 9:32</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>USLibraryLady says "It would be interesting to know what the father's war record would show." As he seems to have been four years old when the war started, I doubt it would be as interesting as all that. You can't blame every evil in the world on the Nazis, comforting though that might be.</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1074922, was written by JohnCooperClarke, at April 29, 2008 9:32 AM, and starts with USLibraryLady says "It would be interesting to know what the father's war record would show." As he ">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1075794"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">leightoncooke</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1075794">1075794</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1075794">April 29 14:25</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>Dear Gruaniad, die Spiegel ist der Spiegel. At least it was the last time I looked in it.</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1075794, was written by leightoncooke, at April 29, 2008 2:25 PM, and starts with Dear Gruaniad, die Spiegel ist der Spiegel. At least it was the last time I looked in it.">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1076054"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">insomniac506</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1076054">1076054</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1076054">April 29 15:45</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>This is a horrific crime, and certainly counts among one of the worst that's ever been reported. Stories of children being abducted and abused are depressingly common, but what makes this story particularly hair-raising is that the abuse was perpetrated by a father against his daughter. The fact that the case involves incest is less disturbing, I think, than the fact that the incestuous relationship clearly wasn't with the consent of the daughter, and was combined with imprisonment and sustained cruelty and mistreatment of the daughter and her children. It's horrifying because it flies in the face of all our cultural assumptions about a father's love for his child, and is a reversal of the expectation that we should protect and nurture our children. </p> <p>Given the severity of the facts, the extent of the damage that has been done to the daughter and her children, and the devastation this will cause to the mother and the other children she raised, it's tempting to launch into hysterical outrage, and flail around desperately looking for some social ill to hang this on, however banal. Because this is Austria, birthplace of Hitler and one-time centre of the Nazi movement, references to Austria's dark past are already being made. Personally, I find this kind of event linking lazy and meaningless. </p> <p>This event isn't unique to Austria. This could have happened - and has happened, and probably is happening right now - in every country in the world. Some of my fellow bloggers are rhapsing lyrical about "the breakdown of community" leading to this horror being able to happen. </p> <p>Personally, I think that's bollocks. Looking nostalgically at the past is worthless. We all know that in communities of 40 and 50 years ago, abuse and violence towards women and children was commonplace, and much more socially acceptable than it is now. If you don't believe me, or don't think it could happen in dear old Blighty, read Andrea Ashworth's memoir "Once In A House On Fire", where she describes her mother and sisters becoming punching bags for her violent stepfather, while police didn't intervene because it was "just a domestic" and men beating their wives didn't warrant police investigation. Things like rape, sexual abuse, teen preganancy and depression weren't talked about, and seen as shameful and something to be kept hidden. If anything, I think we live in a healthier culture now, where at least things of this nature are discussed more openly, and awareness of sexual abuse is more in the public domain.</p> <p>I also don't buy the idea that we're more alienated from our neighbours than we used to be. Again, I think this stems from a comforting WWII-era fantasy we cling to about people mucking in together and there being no secrets in a community. Dirty little secrets have always existed in families and communities, and if anything, they've become more difficult to be kept hidden.</p> <p>Of course we want to live in a world where things like this don't happen, and of course we want to understand how this could have happened. But it DID happen, disturbing though that is to accept, and the most difficult thing we may have to accept is that, in this case, there may have been very little that anyone else could have done to stop it.</p> <p>A lot of criticism is bound to fall on the wife, who is the easiest target in this sad, awful story. "How could she not have known?", the hand wringers cry, but again, I think it is plausible that an abuser of this man's evident careful planning, attention to detail and ability to bully and intimidate would probably have been able to convince his wife that their daughter had gone missing. One wonders about things like the sound of the television - or, indeed, the cries of the daughter giving birth to her seven children, would have penetrated the cellar and alerted someone, but we have insufficient evidence to know how well sound could have carried in the house. Somehow, I doubt that this is a case of selective blindness or intimidation on the wife's part - it is possible that she really didn't know. </p> <p>Again, I think we take our horror and our outrage, and we lash around furiously trying to pin it on something or someone, as a way of avoiding the possibility that, in some cases, there is nothing we can do. Sexual abuse and incest, especially involving children, is incredibly difficult to identify, especially if the perpetrators are the abusers, and, as in this case, the abuser takes the extreme steps of imprisoning his victim and inventing a story that she had gone missing, leaving her unable to get help from anyone or for anyone else to help her. We don't like to accept this, because it makes us feel powerless and helpless as a society, but there it is. We may have to accept, as a society, that bad things, despite our best intentions, do happen.</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1076054, was written by insomniac506, at April 29, 2008 3:45 PM, and starts with This is a horrific crime, and certainly counts among one of the worst that's ever been reported. Sto">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1076194"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">MatthewWeaver</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1076194">1076194</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1076194">April 29 16:24</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>Thanks leigtoncooke, and sorry for the error. When I checked the website was called Spiegel Online. I've corrected the post.</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1076194, was written by MatthewWeaver, at April 29, 2008 4:24 PM, and starts with Thanks leigtoncooke, and sorry for the error. When I checked the website was called Spiegel Online. ">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1076692"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">CanaryIsland</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1076692">1076692</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1076692">April 29 21:36</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>This story has echoes of the concentration camps and how Austrians rejoiced in the Anschluss. Second and third generation journalists in Austria will now treat us to a master-class in hand-wringing, followed by sweeping things under the carpet. </p> <p>The massive post-war American-led effort to rid Germany of Nazis hardly touched Austria, with the result that Austrian compensation for survivors of the concentration camps was derisory compared to German compensation. I speak from experience.</p> <p>Austria - the country - is so beautiful. Have the people reached a stage of development where they can deal with the people who matter most - the survivors? <br/> </p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1076692, was written by CanaryIsland, at April 29, 2008 9:36 PM, and starts with This story has echoes of the concentration camps and how Austrians rejoiced in the Anschluss. Second">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1077129"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">Helen121</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1077129">1077129</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1077129">April 30 2:20</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>I am more interested by the questions that do not seem to have been asked: if he abused his daughter from aged 11, did he abuse his other children? Did he abuse his grandchildren? The girl Kirsten was also a prisoner in this dungeon from birth - and it seems unlikely that the mother could protect her from a habitual pedofile. </p> <p>If the dungeon received planning permission (how? for what purpose without natural light? a wine cellar with a toilet?) then his wife must have known of its existence: what did she think it was being used for? The daughter was being raped within her mother's house for 7 years before she was imprisoned downstairs - and she didn't suspect anything? Or she was too frightened to talk because he beat and abused her also?</p> <p>I still don't understand how he managed to buy food for 4 people and get it to them without being detected.</p> <p>Why did the authorities not question why three children could be abandoned on the doorstep by a missing or dead person? Not just one, not two, but three babies and they never asked where the mother was? </p> <p>I too am not surprised and am sure things like this happen in many places, but I feel it is more a reflection of the authoritarian attitude of a bully who thought he could, and did, get away with it.</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1077129, was written by Helen121, at April 30, 2008 2:20 AM, and starts with I am more interested by the questions that do not seem to have been asked: if he abused his daughter">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1078595"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">SeventhTimeLucky</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1078595">1078595</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1078595">April 30 15:46</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>I thought the last comment on Elisabeth's life between the ages of 11 and 18 was pertinent. I have been thinking about those seven years when the poor girl was being abused *above* ground. Many, many young girls are abused in a situation where their mother is silent state of denial. Some are abused while the mother turns a blind eye. All that has to be looked at.</p> <p>My second point is directed to all those people who say the neighbours should have suspected something. That's fine, just as long as they are all quite sure of what is going on in all their own neighbours' cellars. I couldn't begin to tell you about my own lovely neighbours who I've lived among for 16 years and who all have cellars.</p> <p>My third point is that all states ought to have powers to investigate and keep lists of the identities of everyone who is in a cult, so that at least their parents, often desperately looking for them (as one doesn't feel Elisabeth's mother was) can know where they are.</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1078595, was written by SeventhTimeLucky, at April 30, 2008 3:46 PM, and starts with I thought the last comment on Elisabeth's life between the ages of 11 and 18 was pertinent. I have b">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1079521"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">grubbedout</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1079521">1079521</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1079521">April 30 22:15</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>Reports this evening (On the BBC), state that the Austian govt (or a minister in the govt) has said there should be a publicity drive to counter-act the damage this case is doing to Austria. Presumably someone anticipates a drop in tourist visitors?</p> <p>The point is, isn't this just the kind of idea borne of out of a national mindset of 'hiding our dirty washing under the carpet' that Austria is being critised for?</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1079521, was written by grubbedout, at April 30, 2008 10:15 PM, and starts with Reports this evening (On the BBC), state that the Austian govt (or a minister in the govt) has said ">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1079947"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">Bluebonnet11</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1079947">1079947</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1079947">May 1 2:54</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>Predators and deceivers are highly skilled at hiding their actions. Secrecy is the shield that allows them to sustain their behaviors, and they actually get a 'high' from pulling the wool over on everyone. And yes, they can sustain the lies for many, many years.</p> <p>Teenagers run away in every part of the world. Why would the woman have looked in her cellar? The the entrance to the secret dungeon was blocked from view, and it was soundproof. The daughter was drugged at first - for all we know, the monster father may well have kept her drugged for a long while. He probably also pretended to exert a lot of energy 'looking' for her before he developed the trumped up letter to divert attention.</p> <p>As for bringing in the food and clothing, all he has to do was regularly come and go with boxes. The cellar was his workshop, and he owned apartments and other property. No normal person (even the wife) would have questioned that sort of behavior. He was controlling and abusive, and she probably learned early not to question his actions if she valued her own safety.</p> <p>What sane person, if they witnessed a neighbor appearing to quietly go about his daily business, would have suddenly assumed there were prisoners in the cellar?</p> <p>Speaking of sanity - I sincerely hope this dispicable creature doesn't get off on a sanity plea. He most certainly is sane. He knew enough to hide his actions for two-plus decades. He is truly evil.</p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1079947, was written by Bluebonnet11, at May 1, 2008 2:54 AM, and starts with Predators and deceivers are highly skilled at hiding their actions. Secrecy is the shield that allow">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-meta"> <a name="comment-1080074"></a> <div class="blogs-article-comment-author">Helen121</div><br/> <div class="blogs-article-comment-id">Comment No. <a href="#comment-1080074">1080074</a></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-date"><a href="#comment-1080074">May 1 6:44</a></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-main"> <div class="blogs-article-comment-body"><p>Not only should we consider how he got away with raping his daughter "upstairs" from age 11, but this man had 8 children and 6 grandchildren (that have been reported in the press at least). Pedofiles do not normally restrict themselves to one victim - what about the other children? Did he rape them also? Especially Kirsten who seems to be dying (what of?).</p> <p>If we accept that the wife was so terrorised and beaten herself that she never questioned his absences, I still do not understand how he fed them all. Did he do all the shopping for one family nearby, and for the other hidden family further away where no one knew him?</p> <p>And now we learn they have lost all their teeth because of no access to sunlight! Just how did they survive all this? Constant rape. Haphazard access to food. No medical care. No daylight. </p> <p>This isn't Austrian specifically- it is to do with attitudes to women, and children, as chattels. To do with as your wish, as you desire. It is a power issue. There are plenty of other cultures where men have absolute power over women. Where women are not allowed out of the house. Where they are married against their will. For God's sake, we have this dreadful case in the US where hundreds of underage girls are made pregnant by older men in the name of their God. In some countries it is the physically or mentally disabled who are locked away out of sight, in some countries just the fact of being a girl, or not being "perfect", is enough for the baby to be abandoned in the street, or worse. </p> <p>Shocking, yes. Unusual? Hardly...</p> <p></p> <p><br/> </p></div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-mods"> Offensive? Unsuitable? <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/mailto:news.blog.help@guardian.co.uk?subject=A problem with http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/austrian_angst_over_cellar_cas.html&body=Please tell us the problem. For our reference, internally this comment is known as Number 1080074, was written by Helen121, at May 1, 2008 6:44 AM, and starts with Not only should we consider how he got away with raping his daughter "upstairs" from age 11, but thi">Report this comment.</a> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-divider"></div> </div> <div class="blogs-article-comment-form"> <form id="postacomment2" name="postacomment2" method="post" action="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://users.guardian.co.uk/readercomments/getticket"> <input type="hidden" name="useraction" value="postcomment"/> <input type="hidden" name="url" value="https%3A%2F%2Fblogs.guardian.co.uk%2Fnewmt%2Fcomment_handler.cgi%3Fentry_id=049427"/> <input type="submit" value="Post your comment"/> </form> <p class="note">Please note: In order to post a comment you need to be registered and signed in for Guardian Unlimited blogs.<br/> <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://users.guardian.co.uk/register/1,12904,-1,00.html" target="_WINDOW">You can register here.</a></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="blogs-widgets"> <div id="mpu" class="blogs-mpu-right"> <div id="mpuwrapper"> <iframe title="Advertisement" width="300" height="250" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" src="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514if_/http://ads.guardian.co.uk/html.ng/Params.richmedia=yes&spacedesc=mpu&site=Guardian&section=blognews&country=usa&rand=1455122&system=blog&blogset=UNKNOWN_MPU_BLOGSET"> <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://ads.guardian.co.uk/click.ng/Params.richmedia=yes&spacedesc=mpu&site=Guardian&section=blognews&country=usa&rand=1455122&system=blog&blogset=UNKNOWN_MPU_BLOGSET"> <img src="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514im_/http://ads.guardian.co.uk/image.ng/Params.richmedia=yes&spacedesc=mpu&site=Guardian&section=blognews&country=usa&rand=1455122&system=blog&blogset=UNKNOWN_MPU_BLOGSET" width="300" height="250" border="0" alt="Advertisement"/></a> </iframe> </div>  </div>   <div class="blogs-widget-plain"> <h1>Most active blog posts</h1> <div class="blogs-widget-plain-body"> <ul> <li> <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080501185514/http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/help_map_the_effects_of_the_gr_1.html"><strong>Help map the effects of the Grangemouth refinery strike</strong></a><br> Map temporarily out of use. 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