CINXE.COM

<!DOCTYPE html> <html lang="en"> <head> <meta charset="utf-8"> <title>Shields, blazes, artistic license, and intellectual property - General talk - OpenStreetMap Community Forum</title> <meta name="description" content="Continuing the discussion from Bike route networks classification (ICN, NCN, RCN and LCN): I’ve been harping on a lot about shields as a use case for specific network information on recreational routes, so in case ther&hellip;"> <meta name="generator" content="Discourse 3.3.2 - https://github.com/discourse/discourse version d51a9373b4d5906823a4f041e4edbc9bc9bf2881"> <link rel="icon" type="image/png" href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/optimized/1X/e9768dc0a7cbe8d58a55e515a89a6af817534bbf_2_32x32.png"> <link rel="apple-touch-icon" type="image/png" href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/optimized/1X/e9768dc0a7cbe8d58a55e515a89a6af817534bbf_2_180x180.png"> <meta name="theme-color" media="(prefers-color-scheme: light)" content="#ffffff"> <meta name="theme-color" media="(prefers-color-scheme: dark)" content="#111111"> <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0, minimum-scale=1.0, user-scalable=yes, viewport-fit=cover"> <link rel="canonical" href="https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/shields-blazes-artistic-license-and-intellectual-property/122161" /> <link rel="search" type="application/opensearchdescription+xml" href="https://community.openstreetmap.org/opensearch.xml" title="OpenStreetMap Community Forum Search"> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/color_definitions_light_4_1_706800ab8d27c9103cea838044ed9e2df474ff73.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" class="light-scheme"/><link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/color_definitions_dark_1_1_9b01044000c2561eb2c25f585f55cbf14207f11a.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="(prefers-color-scheme: dark)" rel="stylesheet" class="dark-scheme"/> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/desktop_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="desktop" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/checklist_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="checklist" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/discourse-details_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="discourse-details" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/discourse-lazy-videos_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="discourse-lazy-videos" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/discourse-local-dates_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="discourse-local-dates" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/discourse-narrative-bot_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="discourse-narrative-bot" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/discourse-post-voting_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="discourse-post-voting" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/discourse-presence_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="discourse-presence" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/discourse-reactions_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="discourse-reactions" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/discourse-saved-searches_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="discourse-saved-searches" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/discourse-solved_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="discourse-solved" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/discourse-translator_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="discourse-translator" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/footnote_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="footnote" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/poll_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="poll" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/spoiler-alert_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="spoiler-alert" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/discourse-post-voting_desktop_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="discourse-post-voting_desktop" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/discourse-reactions_desktop_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="discourse-reactions_desktop" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/poll_desktop_02766bd1cdd6472604beb46bcd02c72a7de36fa7.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="poll_desktop" /> <link href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/stylesheets/desktop_theme_1_299480a377b769d4062609d96e6b1cd0bcc76bc5.css?__ws=community.openstreetmap.org" media="all" rel="stylesheet" data-target="desktop_theme" data-theme-id="1" data-theme-name="default"/> <link rel="alternate nofollow" type="application/rss+xml" title="RSS feed of 'Shields, blazes, artistic license, and intellectual property'" href="https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/shields-blazes-artistic-license-and-intellectual-property/122161.rss" /> <meta property="og:site_name" content="OpenStreetMap Community Forum" /> <meta property="og:type" content="website" /> <meta name="twitter:card" content="summary" /> <meta name="twitter:image" content="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/original/3X/0/c/0c632e892569067f82363b414bd0b1df5d2952f1.jpeg" /> <meta property="og:image" content="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/original/3X/0/c/0c632e892569067f82363b414bd0b1df5d2952f1.jpeg" /> <meta property="og:url" content="https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/shields-blazes-artistic-license-and-intellectual-property/122161" /> <meta name="twitter:url" content="https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/shields-blazes-artistic-license-and-intellectual-property/122161" /> <meta property="og:title" content="Shields, blazes, artistic license, and intellectual property" /> <meta name="twitter:title" content="Shields, blazes, artistic license, and intellectual property" /> <meta property="og:description" content="Continuing the discussion from Bike route networks classification (ICN, NCN, RCN and LCN): I’ve been harping on a lot about shields as a use case for specific network information on recreational routes, so in case there’s any misunderstanding: blazes and shields are different concepts. A route can have both, so OSM needs to enable data consumers to show both. I suggest that we create a dedicated thread for this if we want to dig deeper. There is also the tricky question of representing the ..." /> <meta name="twitter:description" content="Continuing the discussion from Bike route networks classification (ICN, NCN, RCN and LCN): I’ve been harping on a lot about shields as a use case for specific network information on recreational routes, so in case there’s any misunderstanding: blazes and shields are different concepts. A route can have both, so OSM needs to enable data consumers to show both. I suggest that we create a dedicated thread for this if we want to dig deeper. There is also the tricky question of representing the ..." /> <meta property="og:article:section" content="General talk" /> <meta property="og:article:section:color" content="9fd485" /> <meta property="og:article:tag" content="tagging" /> <meta property="og:article:tag" content="rendering" /> <meta property="og:article:tag" content="americana" /> <meta name="twitter:label1" value="Reading time" /> <meta name="twitter:data1" value="5 mins 🕑" /> <meta name="twitter:label2" value="Likes" /> <meta name="twitter:data2" value="2 ❤" /> <meta property="article:published_time" content="2024-11-26T19:21:51+00:00" /> <meta property="og:ignore_canonical" content="true" /> </head> <body class="crawler browser-update"> <header> <a href="/"> OpenStreetMap Community Forum </a> </header> <div id="main-outlet" class="wrap" role="main"> <div id="topic-title"> <h1> <a href="/t/shields-blazes-artistic-license-and-intellectual-property/122161">Shields, blazes, artistic license, and intellectual property</a> </h1> <div class="topic-category" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/BreadcrumbList"> <span itemprop="itemListElement" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/ListItem"> <a href="/c/general/38" class="badge-wrapper bullet" itemprop="item"> <span class='badge-category-bg' style='background-color: #9fd485'></span> <span class='badge-category clear-badge'> <span class='category-name' itemprop='name'>General talk</span> </span> </a> <meta itemprop="position" content="1" /> </span> </div> <div class="topic-category"> <div class='discourse-tags list-tags'> <a href='https://community.openstreetmap.org/tag/tagging' class='discourse-tag' rel="tag">tagging</a>, <a href='https://community.openstreetmap.org/tag/rendering' class='discourse-tag' rel="tag">rendering</a>, <a href='https://community.openstreetmap.org/tag/americana' class='discourse-tag' rel="tag">americana</a> </div> </div> </div> <div itemscope itemtype='http://schema.org/DiscussionForumPosting'> <meta itemprop='headline' content='Shields, blazes, artistic license, and intellectual property'> <link itemprop='url' href='https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/shields-blazes-artistic-license-and-intellectual-property/122161'> <meta itemprop='datePublished' content='2024-11-26T19:21:51Z'> <meta itemprop='articleSection' content='General talk'> <meta itemprop='keywords' content='tagging, rendering, americana'> <div itemprop='publisher' itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Organization"> <meta itemprop='name' content='OpenStreetMap Foundation'> <div itemprop='logo' itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/ImageObject"> <meta itemprop='url' content='https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/original/2X/2/20f6c7508cd8bb64ed4a4e5213b0bd3662479bfb.png'> </div> </div> <div id='post_1' class='topic-body crawler-post'> <div class='crawler-post-meta'> <span class="creator" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person"> <a itemprop="url" href='https://community.openstreetmap.org/u/Minh_Nguyen'><span itemprop='name'>Minh_Nguyen</span></a> (Minh Nguyễn) </span> <link itemprop="mainEntityOfPage" href="https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/shields-blazes-artistic-license-and-intellectual-property/122161"> <link itemprop="image" href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/original/3X/0/c/0c632e892569067f82363b414bd0b1df5d2952f1.jpeg"> <span class="crawler-post-infos"> <time datetime='2024-11-26T19:21:51Z' class='post-time'> November 26, 2024, 7:21pm </time> <meta itemprop='dateModified' content='2024-11-26T20:05:14Z'> <span itemprop='position'>1</span> </span> </div> <div class='post' itemprop='text'> <p>Continuing the discussion from <a href="https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/bike-route-networks-classification-icn-ncn-rcn-and-lcn/121700/145">Bike route networks classification (ICN, NCN, RCN and LCN)</a>:</p> <aside class="quote no-group" data-username="Peter_Elderson" data-post="142" data-topic="121700"> <div class="title"> <div class="quote-controls"></div> <img loading="lazy" alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/user_avatar/community.openstreetmap.org/peter_elderson/48/917_2.png" class="avatar"><a href="https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/bike-route-networks-classification-icn-ncn-rcn-and-lcn/121700/142">Bike route networks classification (ICN, NCN, RCN and LCN)</a></div> <blockquote> <p>Even osmc:symbol is nothing more than information. It’s not the symbol itself, but only a description, which is fortunate because our national hiking/foot/walking route operator wanted to sue us for illegal use of the route symbol (white-over-red, in license from the French, they told me). By the way, that is also why we can’t use pictures for the route symbols: that would be illegal copying and distribution of a licensed trade mark).</p> </blockquote> </aside> <p>I’ve been harping on a lot about shields as a use case for specific network information on recreational routes, so in case there’s any misunderstanding: blazes and shields are different concepts. A route can have both, so OSM needs to enable data consumers to show both.</p> <aside class="quote no-group quote-modified" data-username="StC" data-post="144" data-topic="121700" data-full="true"> <div class="title"> <div class="quote-controls"></div> <img loading="lazy" alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/ac8455/48.png" class="avatar"><a href="https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/bike-route-networks-classification-icn-ncn-rcn-and-lcn/121700/144">Bike route networks classification (ICN, NCN, RCN and LCN)</a></div> <blockquote> <aside class="quote no-group" data-username="dieterdreist" data-post="143" data-topic="121700"> <div class="title"> <div class="quote-controls"></div> <img loading="lazy" alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/user_avatar/community.openstreetmap.org/dieterdreist/48/424_2.png" class="avatar"><a href="https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/bike-route-networks-classification-icn-ncn-rcn-and-lcn/121700/143">Bike route networks classification (ICN, NCN, RCN and LCN)</a></div> <blockquote> <p>are you sure? After all you would use the trademark to describe what they are registered for…</p> </blockquote> </aside> <p>I suggest that we create a dedicated thread for this if we want to dig deeper.</p> <p>There is also the tricky question of representing the actual signs on the ground vs the symbols used in communication supports</p> </blockquote> </aside> <p>Indeed, a given route may have a single shield design signposted along the entire length of the route, a simpler shield on maps due to space or ink constraints, and multiple distinct blazes on the ground that vary by the segment. Sometimes a given route will use a blue blaze whenever it follows an off-road hiking trail but a more complicated shield whenever it follows a bikeway or roadway.</p> <p>For example, the <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1738661">Buckeye Trail</a> is marked with a blueish blaze on tree trunks but with a more intricate shield in the shape of Ohio on bikeway wayfinding signs. Hiking maps just show a blue line, but multimodal transportation maps show the shield instead.</p> <aside class="onebox wikimedia" data-onebox-src="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blaze_on_beech_tree_North_Chagrin_Metropark_Buckeye_Trail.jpg"> <header class="source"> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blaze_on_beech_tree_North_Chagrin_Metropark_Buckeye_Trail.jpg" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">commons.wikimedia.org</a> </header> <article class="onebox-body"> <div class="aspect-image" style="--aspect-ratio:500/333;"><img src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/original/3X/0/c/0c632e892569067f82363b414bd0b1df5d2952f1.jpeg" class="thumbnail" data-dominant-color="8A842B" width="500" height="333"></div> <h3><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blaze_on_beech_tree_North_Chagrin_Metropark_Buckeye_Trail.jpg" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">File:Blaze on beech tree North Chagrin Metropark Buckeye Trail.jpg</a></h3> </article> <div class="onebox-metadata"> </div> <div style="clear: both"></div> </aside> <aside class="onebox wikimedia" data-onebox-src="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Closeup_of_wayfinding_sign_on_the_Great_Miami_River_Recreational_Trail_at_Rip_Rap_Road,_Huber_Heights,_Ohio.jpg"> <header class="source"> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Closeup_of_wayfinding_sign_on_the_Great_Miami_River_Recreational_Trail_at_Rip_Rap_Road,_Huber_Heights,_Ohio.jpg" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">commons.wikimedia.org</a> </header> <article class="onebox-body"> <div class="aspect-image" style="--aspect-ratio:333/500;"><img src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/optimized/3X/e/3/e30f862d1054a18dbae0cddff06a300a5f13ec4e_2_333x500.jpeg" class="thumbnail" data-dominant-color="999678" width="333" height="500"></div> <h3><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Closeup_of_wayfinding_sign_on_the_Great_Miami_River_Recreational_Trail_at_Rip_Rap_Road,_Huber_Heights,_Ohio.jpg" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">File:Closeup of wayfinding sign on the Great Miami River Recreational Trail at Rip Rap Road, Huber Heights, Ohio.jpg</a></h3> </article> <div class="onebox-metadata"> </div> <div style="clear: both"></div> </aside> <p>(That sign shows a concurrency with the North Country Scenic Trail. The trails only overlap halfway, yet both trails have the same motto: “Follow the Blue Blazes”. Oops.)</p> <p>Making matters worse, shield designs can change wholesale across a network. Several years ago, the Ohio state bike route design changed from a lozenge to an oval without notice. About a year ago, the standard design for all U.S. Bicycle Routes <a href="https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/11th-edition-of-the-mutcd/107651">changed overnight</a>, not the first time this has happened. Blaze designs tend to be more durable, even if paint can fade. After all, intentionally changing a blaze from one color to another could easily cause confusion.</p> <p>Traditionally, in OSM, we’ve conflated the two concepts within <code>symbol=*</code>, <code>osmc:symbol=*</code>, or <code>wiki:symbol=*</code>. A renderer has no idea whether an <code>osmc:symbol=*</code> within the U.S. is a description of a blaze or (an oversimplification of) a shield. It all depends which one the mapper encountered while mapping. In the case of the Buckeye Trail, the shield is too complex to describe in the OSMC symbol syntax, so <code>osmc:symbol=*</code> only describes the blazes.</p> <p>Ideally, a North American trail renderer would represent both the blazes and the shields somehow, so the user knows about both aids when wayfinding. For example, the path of the Buckeye Trail could be tinted in blue, dotted with the shield at intervals. OSM-based renderers currently show “BT” in a rectangle based on <code>ref=*</code>, but this is just a stopgap.</p> <aside class="quote no-group" data-username="Peter_Elderson" data-post="145" data-topic="121700"> <div class="title"> <div class="quote-controls"></div> <img loading="lazy" alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/user_avatar/community.openstreetmap.org/peter_elderson/48/917_2.png" class="avatar"><a href="https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/bike-route-networks-classification-icn-ncn-rcn-and-lcn/121700/145">Bike route networks classification (ICN, NCN, RCN and LCN)</a></div> <blockquote> <p>The symbols: I explained that we mappers just give a text description of the symbol, and that renderers decide what to make of that. And that I would support a legal check to see if that violates copyrights or licenses, because I would really like to see if we are not allowed to describe a symbol, or if renderers are not allowed to use the description like that.<br> And it is a fact that this particular logo is not that complicated, and if a renderer uses the text description to depict something like it, it is bound to look reasonably like the licensed picture.<br> I haven’t heard any objections since, and I am sure they know how to find me!</p> </blockquote> </aside> <p>Shields are much more likely than blazes to rise above the <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Threshold_of_originality" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">threshold of originality</a>, because printing and signmaking technology is far more advanced than hand paintings on tree trunks. At least the legal situation over here in the U.S. would clearly protect any heraldic description of a blazon or coat of arms, and any image drawn from scratch based on such a description.</p> <p>Whether OSM describes the blaze or shield directly on the route relation or leaves the presentation up to renderers, the renderers still face the exact same legal situation based on what they’re showing. OSM is just an implementation detail. While a renderer can’t necessarily achieve a pixel-perfect rendering of an NGO’s fancy logo due to a copyright or trademark, it might be able to simplify the design down to very basic shapes that fall below the threshold of originality while remaining recognizable to map users.</p> <p>For example, <a href="https://americanamap.org/#map=12/38.94762/-84.84798" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">OSM Americana’s depiction of the Ohio River Scenic Byway</a> only captures the essential elements of the true shield, which is too complicated to make out at a small size. I took some artistic license, omitting the riverboat, the scroll, and the text. The church steeple might not be structurally sound. But hopefully the user gets the gist, especially if they consult the legend. A different designer might take different liberties with the design, for example if the map has no legend.</p> <p><div class="lightbox-wrapper"><a class="lightbox" href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/original/3X/b/1/b1a6898ada508a0689a384de4dbb054188370716.png" data-download-href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/b1a6898ada508a0689a384de4dbb054188370716" title="Route 56 is concurrent with the Ohio River Scenic Byway through the town of Rising Sun. The ORSB shield is represented by a rectangle with a black silhouette of a skyline, blue river, green hills, and white sky."><img src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/optimized/3X/b/1/b1a6898ada508a0689a384de4dbb054188370716_2_400x300.png" alt="Route 56 is concurrent with the Ohio River Scenic Byway through the town of Rising Sun. The ORSB shield is represented by a rectangle with a black silhouette of a skyline, blue river, green hills, and white sky." data-base62-sha1="plzjDwWWUXJ4IiFccvlPfRjR2g6" width="400" height="300" srcset="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/optimized/3X/b/1/b1a6898ada508a0689a384de4dbb054188370716_2_400x300.png, https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/optimized/3X/b/1/b1a6898ada508a0689a384de4dbb054188370716_2_600x450.png 1.5x, https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/optimized/3X/b/1/b1a6898ada508a0689a384de4dbb054188370716_2_800x600.png 2x" data-dominant-color="E7E8E7"><div class="meta"><svg class="fa d-icon d-icon-far-image svg-icon" aria-hidden="true"><use href="#far-image"></use></svg><span class="filename">Route 56 is concurrent with the Ohio River Scenic Byway through the town of Rising Sun. The ORSB shield is represented by a rectangle with a black silhouette of a skyline, blue river, green hills, and white sky.</span><span class="informations">800×600 121 KB</span><svg class="fa d-icon d-icon-discourse-expand svg-icon" aria-hidden="true"><use href="#discourse-expand"></use></svg></div></a></div></p> <aside class="onebox wikimedia" data-onebox-src="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ohio_SB_19-10-16_403.jpg"> <header class="source"> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ohio_SB_19-10-16_403.jpg" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">commons.wikimedia.org</a> </header> <article class="onebox-body"> <div class="aspect-image" style="--aspect-ratio:374/499;"><img src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/optimized/3X/3/8/38544d87483a711adca35fd6622ec2d50547e95d_2_374x499.jpeg" class="thumbnail" data-dominant-color="44423F" width="374" height="499"></div> <h3><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ohio_SB_19-10-16_403.jpg" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">File:Ohio SB 19-10-16 403.jpg</a></h3> </article> <div class="onebox-metadata"> </div> <div style="clear: both"></div> </aside> <p>Besides copyright and trademark protection, some laws specifically prohibit mimicking insignia, to prevent impersonation. A map can’t impersonate anyone, but the laws are sometimes worded too ambiguously. For example, OSM Americana recently had to <a href="https://github.com/osm-americana/openstreetmap-americana/pull/1120">back out</a> some lovely shields for the National Historic Trail auto tours in favor of plain Reuleaux triangles, because the National Park Service <a href="https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2000/03/28/00-7569/official-trail-marker-for-the-selma-to-montgomery-national-historic-trail" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">legally controls usage of the insignia</a> “or any colorable imitation thereof”. The Wikimedia Foundation once <a href="https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Response_from_Mike_Godwin_to_David_Larson" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">sent an epic retort to the FBI</a> over these <em>sui generis</em> regulations,<sup class="footnote-ref"><a href="#footnote-1083503-1" id="footnote-ref-1083503-1">[1]</a></sup> but I think we’d prefer a more cooperative approach with park managers.</p> <p>Beyond the law, some shield designs incorporate symbols that indigenous groups consider sacred. OSM Americana has <a href="https://github.com/osm-americana/openstreetmap-americana/pull/323#issuecomment-2083591746">sought permission</a> from these groups before reproducing the symbols, out of respect, even if the symbol is legally unprotected and the authorities post it on all the signs. Some renderers may not care to this degree, but it isn’t a mapper’s decision to make.</p> <aside class="onebox wikimedia" data-onebox-src="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NM_6563.jpg"> <header class="source"> <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NM_6563.jpg" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">commons.wikimedia.org</a> </header> <article class="onebox-body"> <div class="aspect-image" style="--aspect-ratio:500/375;"><img src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/original/3X/7/1/7173d8f1bd67b9d609a3834dbba5985cbff79ced.jpeg" class="thumbnail" data-dominant-color="7E8978" width="500" height="375"></div> <h3><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NM_6563.jpg" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">File:NM 6563.jpg</a></h3> </article> <div class="onebox-metadata"> </div> <div style="clear: both"></div> </aside> <p>The precise shield presentation will necessarily differ from project to project, even interactively. Unfortunately, the OSMC symbol syntax is too rigid and specific for this purpose. Maybe the shield should be simpler when zoomed out and more intricate as you zoom in? A completely different set of colors in dark mode, or a different kind of squircle if an older user has Large Text enabled on their phone? Or maybe the map dispenses with the official branding altogether in favor of <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States/Road_signs/Generic_shields">generic shields</a> or ad hoc symbols that the user can look up in a legend without squinting:</p> <p><div class="lightbox-wrapper"><a class="lightbox" href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/original/3X/8/3/83b37ab2902cffd0b7036cecd6cdd83b6a97db7b.jpeg" data-download-href="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/83b37ab2902cffd0b7036cecd6cdd83b6a97db7b" title="A legend of historic trails such as the Mormon Trail, Bozeman Trail, and Bridger Trail, marked by a variety of line types, such as dashes, dashes and exes, and dashes and circles. (© 2010 Wyoming Department of Transportation)"><img src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/optimized/3X/8/3/83b37ab2902cffd0b7036cecd6cdd83b6a97db7b_2_640x480.jpeg" alt="A legend of historic trails such as the Mormon Trail, Bozeman Trail, and Bridger Trail, marked by a variety of line types, such as dashes, dashes and exes, and dashes and circles. (© 2010 Wyoming Department of Transportation)" data-base62-sha1="iN552eVWwbwZ7Bk6kO9x1epi4mn" width="640" height="480" srcset="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/optimized/3X/8/3/83b37ab2902cffd0b7036cecd6cdd83b6a97db7b_2_640x480.jpeg, https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/optimized/3X/8/3/83b37ab2902cffd0b7036cecd6cdd83b6a97db7b_2_960x720.jpeg 1.5x, https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/uploads/default/optimized/3X/8/3/83b37ab2902cffd0b7036cecd6cdd83b6a97db7b_2_1280x960.jpeg 2x" data-dominant-color="9D9D9D"><div class="meta"><svg class="fa d-icon d-icon-far-image svg-icon" aria-hidden="true"><use href="#far-image"></use></svg><span class="filename">A legend of historic trails such as the Mormon Trail, Bozeman Trail, and Bridger Trail, marked by a variety of line types, such as dashes, dashes and exes, and dashes and circles. (© 2010 Wyoming Department of Transportation)</span><span class="informations">1280×960 73.5 KB</span><svg class="fa d-icon d-icon-discourse-expand svg-icon" aria-hidden="true"><use href="#discourse-expand"></use></svg></div></a></div></p> <p>Regardless of these factors, the shield design is still part of a set that spans the whole route network. A semantic key like <code>cycle_network=*</code> is crucial for generating a usable shield or line style, even though that key isn’t explicitly about symbolization. The data consumer is responsible for translating the semantic information into pixels based on context that mappers simply don’t have.</p> <p>Meanwhile, <code>symbol=*</code> or <code>osmc:symbol=*</code> can still be useful for communicating information about the blazes to map users. Imagine a router for hikers saying, in plain text or out loud, to “follow the blue blazes”. While this information can also come from <code>cycle_network=*</code> or similar, blazes can be less consistent on the ground yet even more critical for wayfinding than signs.</p> <hr class="footnotes-sep"> <ol class="footnotes-list"> <li id="footnote-1083503-1" class="footnote-item"><p>One mapper colorfully calls them “eldritch copyrights”. <a href="#footnote-ref-1083503-1" class="footnote-backref">↩︎</a></p> </li> </ol> </div> <div itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/InteractionCounter"> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="http://schema.org/LikeAction"/> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <span class='post-likes'>1 Like</span> </div> </div> <div id='post_2' itemprop='comment' itemscope itemtype='http://schema.org/Comment' class='topic-body crawler-post'> <div class='crawler-post-meta'> <span class="creator" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person"> <a itemprop="url" href='https://community.openstreetmap.org/u/StC'><span itemprop='name'>StC</span></a> (StC) </span> <span class="crawler-post-infos"> <time itemprop='datePublished' datetime='2024-11-26T20:23:52Z' class='post-time'> November 26, 2024, 8:23pm </time> <meta itemprop='dateModified' content='2024-11-26T21:09:45Z'> <span itemprop='position'>2</span> </span> </div> <div class='post' itemprop='text'> <aside class="quote no-group" data-username="Minh_Nguyen" data-post="1" data-topic="122161"> <div class="title"> <div class="quote-controls"></div> <img loading="lazy" alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/user_avatar/community.openstreetmap.org/minh_nguyen/48/24069_2.png" class="avatar"> Minh_Nguyen:</div> <blockquote> <p>Ideally, a North American trail renderer would represent both the blazes and the shields somehow, so the user knows about both aids when wayfinding.</p> </blockquote> </aside> <p>Shields and blazes are probably more american than european (fun fact: in French “shield” would probably translate as “blason” in this context), but this definitely would be useful in Europe too. For instance in France most Camino routes have a shell for shield and two yellow and blue stripes as blazes.</p> <aside class="quote no-group" data-username="Minh_Nguyen" data-post="1" data-topic="122161"> <div class="title"> <div class="quote-controls"></div> <img loading="lazy" alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/user_avatar/community.openstreetmap.org/minh_nguyen/48/24069_2.png" class="avatar"> Minh_Nguyen:</div> <blockquote> <p>Besides copyright and trademark protection, some laws specifically prohibit mimicking insignia, to prevent impersonation.</p> </blockquote> </aside> <p>Here, as far as I can tell it is trademark protection that is used for this. In my job I have been involved in applying for a so-called “collective” trademark to protect a quality label awarded by the government, just like our national federation has applied for trademarks to install its network as a quality brand.</p> <aside class="quote no-group" data-username="Minh_Nguyen" data-post="1" data-topic="122161"> <div class="title"> <div class="quote-controls"></div> <img loading="lazy" alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/user_avatar/community.openstreetmap.org/minh_nguyen/48/24069_2.png" class="avatar"> Minh_Nguyen:</div> <blockquote> <p>At least the legal situation over here in the U.S. would clearly protect any heraldic description of a blazon or coat of arms,</p> </blockquote> </aside> <p>Unfortunately, here things go beyond this. The aforementioned trademarks are also used by our national hiking federation, in its capacity as a publisher that does not like competition, to not only protect the routes themselves but also their maps and their guidebooks. A couple of years ago a website that uses the Waymarkedtrail Hiking layer was asked to remove the white-red shield that appears on some routes.</p> <aside class="quote no-group" data-username="Minh_Nguyen" data-post="1" data-topic="122161"> <div class="title"> <div class="quote-controls"></div> <img loading="lazy" alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/user_avatar/community.openstreetmap.org/minh_nguyen/48/24069_2.png" class="avatar"> Minh_Nguyen:</div> <blockquote> <p>A map can’t impersonate anyone, but the laws are sometimes worded too ambiguously.</p> </blockquote> </aside> <p>I remember that trademark laws and treaties define an exception for “necessary reference”, when the description of your product must refer to another product to express its own value, e.g. “my software is iOS-compatible”. Does this apply to maps and routes?</p> <p>Also, trademarks apply only in the countries that the applicant has requested. I do not know how this works with OSM</p> </div> <div itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/InteractionCounter"> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="http://schema.org/LikeAction"/> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <span class='post-likes'></span> </div> </div> <div id='post_3' itemprop='comment' itemscope itemtype='http://schema.org/Comment' class='topic-body crawler-post'> <div class='crawler-post-meta'> <span class="creator" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person"> <a itemprop="url" href='https://community.openstreetmap.org/u/Minh_Nguyen'><span itemprop='name'>Minh_Nguyen</span></a> (Minh Nguyễn) </span> <span class="crawler-post-infos"> <time itemprop='datePublished' datetime='2024-11-26T20:55:54Z' class='post-time'> November 26, 2024, 8:55pm </time> <meta itemprop='dateModified' content='2024-11-26T20:55:54Z'> <span itemprop='position'>3</span> </span> </div> <div class='post' itemprop='text'> <aside class="quote no-group" data-username="StC" data-post="2" data-topic="122161"> <div class="title"> <div class="quote-controls"></div> <img loading="lazy" alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/ac8455/48.png" class="avatar"> StC:</div> <blockquote> <p>I remember that trademark laws and treaties define an exception for “necessary reference”, when the description of your product must refer to another product to express its own value, e.g. “my software is iOS-compatible”. Does this apply to maps and routes?</p> </blockquote> </aside> <p>There are different kinds of copyrights and trademarks, with different implications. Some trademarks are limited to certain lines of business or certain mediums. As a map designer, I might want to be careful depending on my legal resources. When I simplified the Ohio River Scenic Byway shield to avoid copyright infringement, I risked trademark infringement in the other direction: if I had taken too many liberties with the logo, maybe made it look really ugly, maybe it could be construed as a misrepresentation of the trademark. And if for some reason OSM were to make this route difficult to distinguish from some competitor’s route, that could cause the map to violate the trademark too. What matters is the intention and the actual harm to consumers.</p> <p>The <em>sui generis</em> laws are different, and especially frustrating. Works of the U.S. federal government are in the public domain, but the regulation I mentioned explicitly bans unauthorized reproductions of the insignia, despite its federal authorship. The authority it invokes doesn’t relate to copyright or trademark law at all. The ostensible reason is that park rangers might physically wear the same image as a badge or ID card; the law prevents someone from impersonating the park ranger and defrauding visitors. Common sense says this regulation shouldn’t apply to the dissemination of accurate trail maps. Hopefully that’s a legally sound interpretation too.</p> <p>Governments abroad would have no reason to enforce this regulation, but that’s little comfort to data consumers based here. Let’s suppose the regulation does apply. Should we omit anything from the database that might lead a data consumer to unwittingly violate it? Why not instead state the indisputable facts: the identity of the route and the network to which it belongs. Then the data consumer can choose how to navigate the legal landscape on its own.</p> </div> <div itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/InteractionCounter"> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="http://schema.org/LikeAction"/> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <span class='post-likes'></span> </div> </div> <div id='post_4' itemprop='comment' itemscope itemtype='http://schema.org/Comment' class='topic-body crawler-post'> <div class='crawler-post-meta'> <span class="creator" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person"> <a itemprop="url" href='https://community.openstreetmap.org/u/StC'><span itemprop='name'>StC</span></a> (StC) </span> <span class="crawler-post-infos"> <time itemprop='datePublished' datetime='2024-11-26T21:14:01Z' class='post-time'> November 26, 2024, 9:14pm </time> <meta itemprop='dateModified' content='2024-11-26T21:14:01Z'> <span itemprop='position'>4</span> </span> </div> <div class='post' itemprop='text'> <aside class="quote no-group" data-username="Minh_Nguyen" data-post="3" data-topic="122161"> <div class="title"> <div class="quote-controls"></div> <img loading="lazy" alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/user_avatar/community.openstreetmap.org/minh_nguyen/48/24069_2.png" class="avatar"> Minh_Nguyen:</div> <blockquote> <p>Why not instead state the indisputable facts: the identity of the route and the network to which it belongs. Then the data consumer can choose how to navigate the legal landscape on its own.</p> </blockquote> </aside> <p>I proposed this to the French community a couple of years ago, given that our local hiking federation also claims copyright on the geometry of the routes it applies its trademark on. I was told this would never be widely accepted. Maybe it is time to prove them wrong <img src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=12" title=":smiley:" class="emoji" alt=":smiley:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> </div> <div itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/InteractionCounter"> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="http://schema.org/LikeAction"/> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="1" /> <span class='post-likes'>1 Like</span> </div> </div> <div id='post_5' itemprop='comment' itemscope itemtype='http://schema.org/Comment' class='topic-body crawler-post'> <div class='crawler-post-meta'> <span class="creator" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person"> <a itemprop="url" href='https://community.openstreetmap.org/u/Peter_Elderson'><span itemprop='name'>Peter_Elderson</span></a> (Peter Elderson) </span> <span class="crawler-post-infos"> <time itemprop='datePublished' datetime='2024-11-26T22:02:09Z' class='post-time'> November 26, 2024, 10:02pm </time> <meta itemprop='dateModified' content='2024-11-26T22:02:09Z'> <span itemprop='position'>5</span> </span> </div> <div class='post' itemprop='text'> <p>Our national hiking trail provider holds trademark, licenses and whathaveyou on the logo’s/blazes/symbols, and on all its products with the logo’s on them. Stickers, shields, all with several forms and variants. Also, the trails themselves are their intellectual property. The licensed material, however, is very precise. Exact colours, materials and dimensions of all variants and products. They can’t say hey, we own anything white-and-red.<br> Too bad they have been saving pennies by using low quality stickers and shields, which fade and crumble in the sunlight, so now they have to spend many extra pounds on maintenance… I know, because I maintain some of the routes, and better materials would save me a lot of time. I they had to pay for my time… oh well.</p> <p>What they do not want is for competition to make profit from their products. That is why they protested a lot against OSM, they thought we were using their products to market ourselves for profit. We have managed to get the fact cross that OSM is not a competitor, and that they themselves are free to use OSM for their publicity beyond their own website. We guide people to their website and webshop, and we do not add value to make a profit. I think by now they are aware of that.</p> <p>Still I say, let’s stick with vague but recognizable descriptions, and leave anything too detailed out. The trend to use detailed themed infographics and stylized artwork for routes is noticeable in Nederland as well; we can’t use that exactly and heraldic-like descriptions are very complicated, I don’t see that happening in OSM any time soon.<br> As a hiker, I also dislike complicated shields. I am all for the simple one-colour paint dot, like for the Via Degli Dei crossing the Apennines. The paintblazer even dotted the official symbols and shields, and were especially helpful on terrains where no shields or stickers were present, dotting fallen trees, stones in the middle of a river, rocks on a barren mountain top.</p> <p>I even saw painted sheep, though that might have a different meaning…</p> </div> <div itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/InteractionCounter"> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="http://schema.org/LikeAction"/> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <span class='post-likes'></span> </div> </div> <div id='post_6' itemprop='comment' itemscope itemtype='http://schema.org/Comment' class='topic-body crawler-post'> <div class='crawler-post-meta'> <span class="creator" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person"> <a itemprop="url" href='https://community.openstreetmap.org/u/Minh_Nguyen'><span itemprop='name'>Minh_Nguyen</span></a> (Minh Nguyễn) </span> <span class="crawler-post-infos"> <time itemprop='datePublished' datetime='2024-11-26T23:51:44Z' class='post-time'> November 26, 2024, 11:51pm </time> <meta itemprop='dateModified' content='2024-11-26T23:51:44Z'> <span itemprop='position'>6</span> </span> </div> <div class='post' itemprop='text'> <aside class="quote no-group" data-username="Peter_Elderson" data-post="5" data-topic="122161"> <div class="title"> <div class="quote-controls"></div> <img loading="lazy" alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/user_avatar/community.openstreetmap.org/peter_elderson/48/917_2.png" class="avatar"> Peter_Elderson:</div> <blockquote> <p>Still I say, let’s stick with vague but recognizable descriptions, and leave anything too detailed out. The trend to use detailed themed infographics and stylized artwork for routes is noticeable in Nederland as well; we can’t use that exactly and heraldic-like descriptions are very complicated, I don’t see that happening in OSM any time soon.</p> </blockquote> </aside> <p>Who is “we” and “us” in this statement? <code>US-OH:Buckeye</code> or <code>Q4983100</code> may be more specific than <code>blue::blue_stripe</code>, but that’s beside the point. <code>blue::blue_stripe</code> is much more prescriptive. What if I want to make a map that marks X’s along the National Scenic Trails and O’s along the Buckeye Trail for readability, then describe them both as having blue blazes in the legend? Since when does OSM say that motorways must be blue and trunk roads must be green?</p> </div> <div itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/InteractionCounter"> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="http://schema.org/LikeAction"/> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <span class='post-likes'></span> </div> </div> <div id='post_7' itemprop='comment' itemscope itemtype='http://schema.org/Comment' class='topic-body crawler-post'> <div class='crawler-post-meta'> <span class="creator" itemprop="author" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person"> <a itemprop="url" href='https://community.openstreetmap.org/u/Peter_Elderson'><span itemprop='name'>Peter_Elderson</span></a> (Peter Elderson) </span> <span class="crawler-post-infos"> <time itemprop='datePublished' datetime='2024-11-27T10:12:09Z' class='post-time'> November 27, 2024, 10:12am </time> <meta itemprop='dateModified' content='2024-11-27T10:12:09Z'> <span itemprop='position'>7</span> </span> </div> <div class='post' itemprop='text'> <aside class="quote no-group" data-username="Minh_Nguyen" data-post="6" data-topic="122161"> <div class="title"> <div class="quote-controls"></div> <img loading="lazy" alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://community-cdn.openstreetmap.org/user_avatar/community.openstreetmap.org/minh_nguyen/48/24069_2.png" class="avatar"> Minh_Nguyen:</div> <blockquote> <p><code>blue::blue_stripe</code> is much more prescriptive.</p> </blockquote> </aside> <p>I would say it’s descriptive, and not very detailed, a renderer has lots of freedom how to use it, or not to use it at all. I have to say, I ignore the first colour (blue in this example) altogether. I know OsmAnd gives me a choice to display the routes with this osmc-specified colour.</p> <p>I am not thinking about shields for motorways and trunk roads, just recreational routes using paths, cycleways and foot-accessible roads.</p> </div> <div itemprop="interactionStatistic" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/InteractionCounter"> <meta itemprop="interactionType" content="http://schema.org/LikeAction"/> <meta itemprop="userInteractionCount" content="0" /> <span class='post-likes'></span> </div> </div> </div> </div> <footer class="container wrap"> <nav class='crawler-nav'> <ul> <li itemscope itemtype='http://schema.org/SiteNavigationElement'> <span itemprop='name'> <a href='/' itemprop="url">Home </a> </span> </li> <li itemscope itemtype='http://schema.org/SiteNavigationElement'> <span itemprop='name'> <a href='/categories' itemprop="url">Categories </a> </span> </li> <li itemscope itemtype='http://schema.org/SiteNavigationElement'> <span itemprop='name'> <a href='/guidelines' itemprop="url">Guidelines </a> </span> </li> <li itemscope itemtype='http://schema.org/SiteNavigationElement'> <span itemprop='name'> <a href='https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use' itemprop="url">Terms of Service </a> </span> </li> <li itemscope itemtype='http://schema.org/SiteNavigationElement'> <span itemprop='name'> <a href='https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Privacy_Policy' itemprop="url">Privacy Policy </a> </span> </li> </ul> </nav> <p class='powered-by-link'>Powered by <a href="https://www.discourse.org">Discourse</a>, best viewed with JavaScript enabled</p> </footer> <div class="buorg"><div>Unfortunately, <a href="https://www.discourse.org/faq/#browser">your browser is unsupported</a>. Please <a href="https://browsehappy.com">switch to a supported browser</a> to view rich content, log in and reply.</div></div> </body> </html>