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class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>Wikisource version</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Wikisource_version-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-ODNB_ON-LINE" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#ODNB_ON-LINE"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>ODNB ON-LINE</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-ODNB_ON-LINE-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-ODNB_online_access" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#ODNB_online_access"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>ODNB online access</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-ODNB_online_access-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Proposed_merge_with_Apocryphal_biographies_in_the_Dictionary_of_National_Biography" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Proposed_merge_with_Apocryphal_biographies_in_the_Dictionary_of_National_Biography"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Proposed merge with Apocryphal biographies in the Dictionary of National Biography</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">7 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Proposed_merge_with_Apocryphal_biographies_in_the_Dictionary_of_National_Biography-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"the_dictionary_was_becoming_less_and_less_useful_as_a_reference_work"" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"the_dictionary_was_becoming_less_and_less_useful_as_a_reference_work""> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>"the dictionary was becoming less and less useful as a reference work"</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-"the_dictionary_was_becoming_less_and_less_useful_as_a_reference_work"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-History" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#History"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>History</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-History-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"Adam_Angligena"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" 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To improve this article, please refer to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BOOKS#Article_structure" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BOOKS">relevant guideline for the type of work</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Books</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Books</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Books</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Book articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Brockhaus_Lexikon.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Brockhaus_Lexikon.jpg/33px-Brockhaus_Lexikon.jpg" decoding="async" width="33" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Brockhaus_Lexikon.jpg/51px-Brockhaus_Lexikon.jpg 1.5x, 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src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/35px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="18" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/53px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/70px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1200" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_Kingdom" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject United Kingdom">United Kingdom</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-mid">Mid‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span class="mw-image-border" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" 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height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/48px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/64px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1200" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:United_Kingdom" title="Portal:United Kingdom">United Kingdom portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_Kingdom" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject United Kingdom">WikiProject United Kingdom</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the <a href="/wiki/United_Kingdom" title="United Kingdom">United Kingdom</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_United_Kingdom" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United Kingdom">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">United Kingdom</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject United Kingdom</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject United Kingdom</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">United Kingdom articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-mid"><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_United_Kingdom_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance United Kingdom articles">Mid</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Mid-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_Kingdom/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject United Kingdom/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Untitled" data-mw-thread-id="h-Untitled"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Untitled"></span>Untitled<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Untitled"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Untitled"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>This page should be used to discuss the content of its article. If you wish to discuss the use of the DNB or the ODNB as a resource for Wikipedia articles, Please go to: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Dictionary_of_National_Biography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Dictionary of National Biography">Wikipedia:WikiProject Dictionary of National Biography</a> and its <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Dictionary_of_National_Biography" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dictionary of National Biography">talk page</a>. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Wikisource_version" data-mw-thread-id="h-Wikisource_version-2010-06-16T10:05:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Wikisource_version-2010-06-16T10:05:00.000Z"></span>Wikisource version<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Wikisource_version-2010-06-16T10:05:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Wikisource version"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Charles_Matthews-2010-06-16T10:05:00.000Z-Wikisource_version"></span>This page now links to volumes of scanned DNB posted at archive.org. On the other hand, the DNB is being posted at Wikisource, gradually (currently more than 20% done) in a more readable and convenient format, namely divided up into its articles. I would propose that as volumes are completed on Wikisource, by which I mean all biographies posted, the links here should be replaced for the reader's benefit by interwiki links. <a href="/wiki/User:Charles_Matthews" title="User:Charles Matthews">Charles Matthews</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Charles_Matthews" title="User talk:Charles Matthews">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-Charles_Matthews-2010-06-16T10:05:00.000Z-Wikisource_version" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Charles_Matthews-2010-06-16T10:05:00.000Z-Wikisource_version"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Charles_Matthews-2010-06-16T10:05:00.000Z-Wikisource_version"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Charles_Matthews-2011-08-22T12:44:00.000Z-Charles_Matthews-2010-06-16T10:05:00.000Z"></span>Update: about 30 complete volumes (all biographies present, that is) are now posted at Wikisource. Interwiki links could therefore be added to the table. <a href="/wiki/User:Charles_Matthews" title="User:Charles Matthews">Charles Matthews</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Charles_Matthews" title="User talk:Charles Matthews">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-Charles_Matthews-2011-08-22T12:44:00.000Z-Charles_Matthews-2010-06-16T10:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:44, 22 August 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Charles_Matthews-2011-08-22T12:44:00.000Z-Charles_Matthews-2010-06-16T10:05:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Charles_Matthews-2011-08-22T12:44:00.000Z-Charles_Matthews-2010-06-16T10:05:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2011-09-28T00:29:00.000Z-Charles_Matthews-2011-08-22T12:44:00.000Z"></span>I see no harm in having a link to a facsimile of the original hard copy in the external links (I find it useful), but I think it would be a good idea to link the volumes that are complete on Wikisource directly into the table in the section "First series contents". -- <a href="/wiki/User:Philip_Baird_Shearer" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Philip Baird Shearer">PBS</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Philip_Baird_Shearer" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Philip Baird Shearer">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2011-09-28T00:29:00.000Z-Charles_Matthews-2011-08-22T12:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:29, 28 September 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2011-09-28T00:29:00.000Z-Charles_Matthews-2011-08-22T12:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Philip_Baird_Shearer-2011-09-28T00:29:00.000Z-Charles_Matthews-2011-08-22T12:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="ODNB_ON-LINE" data-mw-thread-id="h-ODNB_ON-LINE-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-ODNB_ON-LINE-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z"></span>ODNB ON-LINE<span data-mw-comment-end="h-ODNB_ON-LINE-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: ODNB ON-LINE"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2.30.190.118-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z-ODNB_ON-LINE"></span>"The online version has an advanced search facility, allowing a search for people by area of interest, religion and "Places, Dates, Life Events". This accesses an electronic index that cannot be directly viewed. Unfortunately a recent analytical examination of selected ODNB articles has revealed them to be both inaccurate and incomplete, particularly the older biographies; this issue will have to be addressed by new Editor <a href="/wiki/Sir_David_Cannadine" class="mw-redirect" title="Sir David Cannadine">Sir David Cannadine</a> who takes over the editorship from October 2014." </p><p><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2.30.190.118" title="Special:Contributions/2.30.190.118">2.30.190.118</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:2.30.190.118" title="User talk:2.30.190.118">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-2.30.190.118-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z-ODNB_ON-LINE" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:50, 15 March 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2.30.190.118-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z-ODNB_ON-LINE"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2.30.190.118-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z-ODNB_ON-LINE"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sintaku-2014-03-15T13:52:00.000Z-2.30.190.118-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z"></span>You can't use original research in Wikipedia, also use Neutral POV. <span style="color: teal;"><i><b>~~</b></i></span> <a href="/wiki/User:Sintaku" title="User:Sintaku"><span style="color: #4F94CD;"><i><b>Sintaku</b></i></span></a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sintaku" title="User talk:Sintaku"><span style="color: teal;"><i><b>Talk</b></i></span></a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-Sintaku-2014-03-15T13:52:00.000Z-2.30.190.118-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:52, 15 March 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sintaku-2014-03-15T13:52:00.000Z-2.30.190.118-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sintaku-2014-03-15T13:52:00.000Z-2.30.190.118-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andrew_Gray-2014-07-05T13:07:00.000Z-2.30.190.118-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z"></span>If we are going to include this "recent analytical examination", we have to be able to cite it. We can't simply refer to a study without any details by which the reader can assess its validity or relevance. I'm not saying it shouldn't be included (goodness knows, errors in a work this size shouldn't surprise anyone) but please make sure this is <i>published</i> somewhere before continuing to add it back in. <a href="/wiki/User:Andrew_Gray" title="User:Andrew Gray">Andrew Gray</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andrew_Gray" title="User talk:Andrew Gray">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-Andrew_Gray-2014-07-05T13:07:00.000Z-2.30.190.118-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:07, 5 July 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andrew_Gray-2014-07-05T13:07:00.000Z-2.30.190.118-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andrew_Gray-2014-07-05T13:07:00.000Z-2.30.190.118-2014-03-15T13:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="ODNB_online_access" data-mw-thread-id="h-ODNB_online_access-2015-04-24T01:20:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-ODNB_online_access-2015-04-24T01:20:00.000Z"></span>ODNB online access<span data-mw-comment-end="h-ODNB_online_access-2015-04-24T01:20:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: ODNB online access"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Schwede66-2015-04-24T01:20:00.000Z-ODNB_online_access"></span>If somebody has online access to the Oxford DNB, the editor could possibly assist with a query on <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Help_desk#two_different_persons_with_same_portrait" class="extiw" title="c:Commons:Help desk">Commons</a>. <b><a href="/wiki/User:Schwede66" title="User:Schwede66"><span style="color:#000000;">Schwede</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Schwede66" title="User talk:Schwede66"><span style="color:#FF4500;">66</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-Schwede66-2015-04-24T01:20:00.000Z-ODNB_online_access" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:20, 24 April 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Schwede66-2015-04-24T01:20:00.000Z-ODNB_online_access"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Schwede66-2015-04-24T01:20:00.000Z-ODNB_online_access"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Proposed_merge_with_Apocryphal_biographies_in_the_Dictionary_of_National_Biography" data-mw-thread-id="h-Proposed_merge_with_Apocryphal_biographies_in_the_Dictionary_of_National_Biograp-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Proposed_merge_with_Apocryphal_biographies_in_the_Dictionary_of_National_Biograp-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"></span>Proposed merge with <a href="/wiki/Apocryphal_biographies_in_the_Dictionary_of_National_Biography" class="mw-redirect" title="Apocryphal biographies in the Dictionary of National Biography">Apocryphal biographies in the Dictionary of National Biography</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Proposed_merge_with_Apocryphal_biographies_in_the_Dictionary_of_National_Biograp-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Proposed merge with Apocryphal biographies in the Dictionary of National Biography"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z-Proposed_merge_with_Apocryphal_biographies_in_the_Dictionary_of_National_Biograp"></span>The topic of apocryphal biographies is not notable on its own, nor is it long enough to justify a standalone article. (Alternatively, the apocryphal article could simply be deleted.) <a href="/wiki/User:Pburka" title="User:Pburka">Pburka</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pburka" title="User talk:Pburka">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z-Proposed_merge_with_Apocryphal_biographies_in_the_Dictionary_of_National_Biograp" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:32, 20 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z-Proposed_merge_with_Apocryphal_biographies_in_the_Dictionary_of_National_Biograp"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z-Proposed_merge_with_Apocryphal_biographies_in_the_Dictionary_of_National_Biograp"></span> </p><p><br/> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GraemeLeggett-2019-06-20T18:54:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"></span>The apocryphal items barely look like notable content even within an article. Suggest just drop the merge and put the Apocryphal up for deletion. <a href="/wiki/User:GraemeLeggett" title="User:GraemeLeggett">GraemeLeggett</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GraemeLeggett" title="User talk:GraemeLeggett">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-GraemeLeggett-2019-06-20T18:54:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:54, 20 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GraemeLeggett-2019-06-20T18:54:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GraemeLeggett-2019-06-20T18:54:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pburka-2019-06-23T19:04:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"></span>NB: there was a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Apocryphal_biographies_in_the_Dictionary_of_National_Biography" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Apocryphal biographies in the Dictionary of National Biography">deletion discussion</a> a year ago which leaned towards merging with this article. I'm not sure what, if anything, is worth merging. Tagging AfD participants <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Agricolae" title="User:Agricolae">Agricolae</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Vorbee" title="User:Vorbee">Vorbee</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Cavrdg" title="User:Cavrdg">Cavrdg</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Coolabahapple" title="User:Coolabahapple">Coolabahapple</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Rich_Farmbrough" title="User:Rich Farmbrough">Rich Farmbrough</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Ealdgyth" title="User:Ealdgyth">Ealdgyth</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Hzh" title="User:Hzh">Hzh</a>, and <a href="/wiki/User:Peterkingiron" title="User:Peterkingiron">Peterkingiron</a>:</span>. <a href="/wiki/User:Pburka" title="User:Pburka">Pburka</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pburka" title="User talk:Pburka">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-Pburka-2019-06-23T19:04:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:04, 23 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pburka-2019-06-23T19:04:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pburka-2019-06-23T19:04:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Agricolae-2019-06-23T20:04:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"></span>only if it is a null merge, i.e. a <i>redirect</i>. I am the one who nominated it for deletion before, so there will be no surprise where I am coming from. It is basically an entire article that is nothing but an errata summary. If these non-individuals are deemed individually notable, then they should have their own article (as a notable 'hoaxes' or fictional individuals), but the fact that DNB contained non-people should not be included in the DNB article unless someone has gone and published an article about 'DNB included some people who didn't actually exist' or featured the fact prominently in a broader retrospective article on DNB. Otherwise the fact that it includes non-existent individuals is just a personal editorial observation, and those is not supposed to be put in articles (let alone serve as the basis for articles). Including it in the DNB article without <i>anyone</i> who has written about DNB calling attention to this phenomenon ignores WP:PROPORTION entirely. This whole page arose because someone created a page for Kirkman Finlay based on a Wikisource DNB entry but because it was deemed inappropriate on some level to have a page for a non-person it was 'fixed' by turning it into a page summarizing multiple non-people, with the other entries added via OR/SYNTH; there was never any 'source' that supported Apocryphal DNBians being a notable group, any more than were I to write an article on DNBians born on Leap Day. So yes, that page has no business being a stand alone article, but it doesn't really have anything to merge that actually belongs here. <a href="/wiki/User:Agricolae" title="User:Agricolae">Agricolae</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Agricolae" title="User talk:Agricolae">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-Agricolae-2019-06-23T20:04:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:04, 23 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Agricolae-2019-06-23T20:04:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Agricolae-2019-06-23T20:04:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rich_Farmbrough-2019-06-23T21:48:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"></span>The fact that a non-existent person from the recent past was believed in for many years is important. If we do not document these things moreover, they will resurrect from time to time. You can see this on <a href="/wiki/List_of_best_selling_books" class="mw-redirect" title="List of best selling books">List of best selling books</a> which regularly adds the claim, debunked on the talk page, and in the Times Literary Supplement, that Tale of Two Cities has sold 220 million copies.</li></ul> <dl><dd>All the best: <i><a href="/wiki/User:Rich_Farmbrough" title="User:Rich Farmbrough">Rich</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rich_Farmbrough" title="User talk:Rich Farmbrough">Farmbrough</a></i>,<small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-Rich_Farmbrough-2019-06-23T21:48:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:48, 23 June 2019 (UTC)</a>.<span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rich_Farmbrough-2019-06-23T21:48:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rich_Farmbrough-2019-06-23T21:48:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><br/> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pburka-2019-06-23T22:03:00.000Z-Rich_Farmbrough-2019-06-23T21:48:00.000Z"></span>Are there reliable sources you can point to which discuss this topic (i.e. non-existent people in the DNB)? <a href="/wiki/User:Pburka" title="User:Pburka">Pburka</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pburka" title="User talk:Pburka">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-Pburka-2019-06-23T22:03:00.000Z-Rich_Farmbrough-2019-06-23T21:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:03, 23 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pburka-2019-06-23T22:03:00.000Z-Rich_Farmbrough-2019-06-23T21:48:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pburka-2019-06-23T22:03:00.000Z-Rich_Farmbrough-2019-06-23T21:48:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pburka-2019-06-25T23:55:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"></span>I'm going to go ahead and make the redirect. The article's history is still present should anyone wish to salvage any of the content. <a href="/wiki/User:Pburka" title="User:Pburka">Pburka</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pburka" title="User talk:Pburka">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-Pburka-2019-06-25T23:55:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:55, 25 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pburka-2019-06-25T23:55:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pburka-2019-06-25T23:55:00.000Z-Pburka-2019-06-20T18:32:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""the_dictionary_was_becoming_less_and_less_useful_as_a_reference_work"" data-mw-thread-id="h-"the_dictionary_was_becoming_less_and_less_useful_as_a_reference_work"-2020-07-18T16:54:00.000Z"><span id=".22the_dictionary_was_becoming_less_and_less_useful_as_a_reference_work.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"the_dictionary_was_becoming_less_and_less_useful_as_a_reference_work"-2020-07-18T16:54:00.000Z"></span>"the dictionary was becoming less and less useful as a reference work"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"the_dictionary_was_becoming_less_and_less_useful_as_a_reference_work"-2020-07-18T16:54:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: "the dictionary was becoming less and less useful as a reference work""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ネイ-2020-07-18T16:54:00.000Z-"the_dictionary_was_becoming_less_and_less_useful_as_a_reference_work""></span>Added <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Original_research_inline" title="Template:Original research inline">Original research inline</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> to this sentence, since even if "written from a Victorian perspective and had become out of date due to changes in historical assessments and discoveries of new information during the twentieth century" (this sentence itself is unsourced), this conclusion is not up to the level of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BLUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BLUE">WP:BLUE</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:%E3%83%8D%E3%82%A4" title="User:ネイ">ネイ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%E3%83%8D%E3%82%A4" title="User talk:ネイ">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-ネイ-2020-07-18T16:54:00.000Z-"the_dictionary_was_becoming_less_and_less_useful_as_a_reference_work"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:54, 18 July 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ネイ-2020-07-18T16:54:00.000Z-"the_dictionary_was_becoming_less_and_less_useful_as_a_reference_work""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ネイ-2020-07-18T16:54:00.000Z-"the_dictionary_was_becoming_less_and_less_useful_as_a_reference_work""></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Agricolae-2020-07-18T17:43:00.000Z-ネイ-2020-07-18T16:54:00.000Z"></span>Without a cite, this seems to be editorializing. I just removed it and put a 'citation needed' for the remainder of the paragraph. <a href="/wiki/User:Agricolae" title="User:Agricolae">Agricolae</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Agricolae" title="User talk:Agricolae">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-Agricolae-2020-07-18T17:43:00.000Z-ネイ-2020-07-18T16:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:43, 18 July 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Agricolae-2020-07-18T17:43:00.000Z-ネイ-2020-07-18T16:54:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Agricolae-2020-07-18T17:43:00.000Z-ネイ-2020-07-18T16:54:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="History" data-mw-thread-id="h-History-20230101194100"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-History-20230101194100"></span>History<span data-mw-comment-end="h-History-20230101194100"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: History"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2600:1700:D591:5F10:394A:9A22:92A4:E073-20230101194100-History"></span>A section on history and precursors is needed. There is a good overview in the introduction of the work. </p> <ol><li>Several general purpose English biography dictionaries exist before this one.</li> <li>A mention of existing similar works for Europe countries should be made as the motivation for this work</li> <li>A mention of how this work was assembled. Name lists published every three months, selecting authors for each name, editorial work structure, publication mechanics</li> <li>statistics on the edition versus how long each volume took to produce</li></ol> <p><a class="external free" href="https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Statistical_Account">https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Statistical_Account</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2600:1700:D591:5F10:394A:9A22:92A4:E073" title="Special:Contributions/2600:1700:D591:5F10:394A:9A22:92A4:E073">2600:1700:D591:5F10:394A:9A22:92A4:E073</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2600:1700:D591:5F10:394A:9A22:92A4:E073&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2600:1700:D591:5F10:394A:9A22:92A4:E073 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-2600:1700:D591:5F10:394A:9A22:92A4:E073-20230101194100-History" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:41, 1 January 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2600:1700:D591:5F10:394A:9A22:92A4:E073-20230101194100-History"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2600:1700:D591:5F10:394A:9A22:92A4:E073-20230101194100-History"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""Adam_Angligena"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion" data-mw-thread-id="h-"Adam_Angligena"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-20240904141100"><span id=".22Adam_Angligena.22_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"Adam_Angligena"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-20240904141100"></span>"<a href="/wiki/Adam_Angligena" class="mw-redirect" title="Adam Angligena">Adam Angligena</a>" listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">Redirects for discussion</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-"Adam_Angligena"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion-20240904141100"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: "Adam Angligena" listed at Redirects for discussion"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-OhHaiMark-20240904141100-"Adam_Angligena"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Information.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/45px-Information.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/60px-Information.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="256" data-file-height="256"/></a></span> The redirect <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Adam_Angligena&redirect=no">Adam Angligena</a></span> has been listed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion">redirects for discussion</a> to determine whether its use and function meets the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirect" title="Wikipedia:Redirect">redirect guidelines</a>. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_September_4#Adam_Angligena" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 4">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 4 § Adam Angligena</a></b> until a consensus is reached. <a href="/wiki/User:OhHaiMark" class="mw-redirect" title="User:OhHaiMark">OhHaiMark</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:OhHaiMark" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:OhHaiMark">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography#c-OhHaiMark-20240904141100-"Adam_Angligena"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:11, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-OhHaiMark-20240904141100-"Adam_Angligena"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-OhHaiMark-20240904141100-"Adam_Angligena"_listed_at_Redirects_for_discussion"></span> </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography&oldid=1251769818">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dictionary_of_National_Biography&oldid=1251769818</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_Book_articles" title="Category:C-Class Book articles">C-Class Book articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Reference_works_task_force_articles" title="Category:Reference works task force articles">Reference works task force articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Book_articles_without_infoboxes" title="Category:Book articles without infoboxes">Book articles without infoboxes</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Books_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Books articles">WikiProject Books articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Resource Exchange articles">WikiProject Resource Exchange articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_United_Kingdom_articles" title="Category:C-Class United Kingdom articles">C-Class United Kingdom articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_United_Kingdom_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance United Kingdom articles">Mid-importance United Kingdom articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_United_Kingdom_articles" title="Category:WikiProject United Kingdom articles">WikiProject United Kingdom articles</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 18 October 2024, at 00:10<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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