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vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Views_on_citation_and_sources"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>Views on citation and sources</span> </div> </a> <button aria-controls="toc-Views_on_citation_and_sources-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle Views on citation and sources subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-Views_on_citation_and_sources-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Citations_must_be_specific_and_templated" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Citations_must_be_specific_and_templated"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2.1</span> <span>Citations must be specific and templated</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Citations_must_be_specific_and_templated-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Sources_must_be_academic_and_modern" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Sources_must_be_academic_and_modern"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2.2</span> <span>Sources must be academic and modern</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Sources_must_be_academic_and_modern-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Cribbing_the_OCD_for_primary_sources" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Cribbing_the_OCD_for_primary_sources"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2.3</span> <span>Cribbing the <i>OCD</i> for primary sources</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Cribbing_the_OCD_for_primary_sources-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Annoyances" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Annoyances"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>Annoyances</span> </div> </a> <button aria-controls="toc-Annoyances-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle Annoyances subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-Annoyances-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Points_and_capitalisation" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Points_and_capitalisation"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3.1</span> <span>Points and capitalisation</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Points_and_capitalisation-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Brutus's_conspiracy,_Marius's_consulship,_etc." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Brutus's_conspiracy,_Marius's_consulship,_etc."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3.2</span> <span>Brutus's conspiracy, Marius's consulship, etc.</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Brutus's_conspiracy,_Marius's_consulship,_etc.-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Useless_archive_links" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Useless_archive_links"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3.3</span> <span>Useless archive links</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Useless_archive_links-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-And_this_eventually_led_to_the_Roman_empire!" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#And_this_eventually_led_to_the_Roman_empire!"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3.4</span> <span>And this eventually led to the <i>Roman empire!</i></span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-And_this_eventually_led_to_the_Roman_empire!-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Populares_and_optimates_as_political_parties" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Populares_and_optimates_as_political_parties"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3.5</span> <span><i>Populares</i> and <i>optimates</i> as political parties</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Populares_and_optimates_as_political_parties-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Major_contributions" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Major_contributions"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Major contributions</span> </div> </a> <button aria-controls="toc-Major_contributions-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle Major contributions subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-Major_contributions-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-People" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#People"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4.1</span> <span>People</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-People-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Ciceronean_and_later" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Ciceronean_and_later"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4.1.1</span> <span>Ciceronean and later</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Ciceronean_and_later-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Prequels" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Prequels"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4.1.2</span> <span>Prequels</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Prequels-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Topics" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Topics"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4.2</span> <span>Topics</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Topics-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Good_articles" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Good_articles"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4.2.1</span> <span>Good articles</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Good_articles-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Ancient_world" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Ancient_world"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4.2.2</span> <span>Ancient world</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Ancient_world-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Modern_world" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Modern_world"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4.2.3</span> <span>Modern world</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Modern_world-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Minor_contributions" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Minor_contributions"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Minor contributions</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Minor_contributions-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-To-do_list" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#To-do_list"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>To-do list</span> </div> </a> <button aria-controls="toc-To-do_list-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle To-do list subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-To-do_list-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Priority" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Priority"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6.1</span> <span>Priority</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Priority-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Non-priority" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Non-priority"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6.2</span> <span>Non-priority</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Non-priority-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Old_drafts" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Old_drafts"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>Old drafts</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Old_drafts-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Notes" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Notes"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>Notes</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Notes-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <nav aria-label="Contents" class="vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-titlebar-toc vector-button-flush-left" title="Table of Contents" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Toggle the table of contents" > <label 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id="mw-content-subtitle"></div></div> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><table role="presentation" class="userboxes" style="margin: auto; margin-bottom: 0.5em; width: 248px; border: #99B3FF solid 1px; background-color: #FFFFFF; background-color: var(--background-color-base, #FFFFFF);; color: #000000; color: var(--color-emphasized, #000000); float: right;"> <tbody><tr> <td><div style="text-align: center; font-size: 120%; font-weight: bold;">Userboxes</div> <div class="wikipediauserbox" style="float:left;border:1px solid #8d40b3;margin:1px;width:238px"><table role="presentation" style="border-collapse:collapse;width:238px;margin-bottom:0;margin-top:0;background:#f0e6f5;color:inherit"><tbody><tr><td style="border:0;width:45px;height:45px;background:#d9bfe5;text-align:center;font-size:14pt;font-weight:bold;color:black;padding:0 1px 0 0;line-height:1.25em;vertical-align:middle"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Noia_64_apps_karm.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Noia_64_apps_karm.svg/42px-Noia_64_apps_karm.svg.png" decoding="async" width="42" height="41" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Noia_64_apps_karm.svg/63px-Noia_64_apps_karm.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Noia_64_apps_karm.svg/84px-Noia_64_apps_karm.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="51" data-file-height="50" /></a></span></td><td style="border:0;text-align:left;font-size:8pt;padding:0 4px 0 4px;height:45px;line-height:1.1;color:black;vertical-align:middle"><span class="plainlinks neverexpand"> This user has been <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=newusers&page=User%3AIfly6&month=-1">on Wikipedia</a> for <b>15 years, 3 months and 6 days</b>.</span></td></tr></tbody></table></div> <div class="wikipediauserbox" 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Economics"><span style="color:;font-weight:bold">WikiProject Economics</span></a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></div> </td></tr></tbody></table> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256394514">.mw-parser-output .user-unified-login{display:block;font-size:85%;background-color:#E0E8FF;border:1px solid #E0E8FF;color:#000;margin:0.2em 0;padding:0.1em 0.3em;word-wrap:break-word;overflow-wrap:break-word;overflow:auto}</style><div id="user-unified-login" class="user-unified-login skin-invert notheme" style="font-size:85%; display:block; background:; border:1px solid #E0E8EF; margin:0.2em 0; padding:0.1em 0.3em; text-align:left; ;"><a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Unified_login" class="extiw" title="m:Help:Unified login">Unified login</a>: <b><a href="/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Ifly6" title="Special:CentralAuth/Ifly6">Ifly6</a></b> is the unique login of this user for all public <a href="https://wikimediafoundation.org/" class="extiw" title="foundationsite:">Wikimedia</a> <a href="https://wikimediafoundation.org/our-work/wikimedia-projects/" class="extiw" title="foundationsite:our-work/wikimedia-projects/">projects</a>. </div> <p>I read economics at university, with a minor in public policy and an unhealthy interest for classics with special interest for the late Roman republic. Professionally, I work in economic research with a focus on banking and the regulation thereof.<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> </p><p>Feel free to leave me a message on my talk page! </p> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc" /> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2"><h2 id="Magistrates_of_the_Roman_Republic"><i>Magistrates of the Roman Republic</i></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Magistrates of the Roman Republic"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>I believe that the first two volumes of <a href="/wiki/T_R_S_Broughton" class="mw-redirect" title="T R S Broughton">T R S Broughton</a>'s <i>Magistrates of the Roman Republic</i> are both in the <a href="/wiki/Public_domain" title="Public domain">public domain</a> because their copyright was <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://guides.library.cornell.edu/copyright/publicdomain">not renewed pursuant to the legal requirements for works published at that time</a>. I have scanned and processed scans of both volumes and <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://github.com/ifly6/broughton-mrr/releases/latest">hosted them on my GitHub</a>. </p><p>You can search the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://romanrepublic.ac.uk"><i>Digital Prosopography of the Roman Republic</i></a> for the specific persons, years, etc. However, the pinpoint nature of Wikipedia citations still directs that a page number be given; <i>DPRR</i> does not include <i>MRR</i> page numbers. Consulting <i>MRR</i>, or scans thereof, directly remains necessary. It is also customary in the field to refer to <i>MRR</i> pages (usually in a form like <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk"><i>MRR</i> 2.105</q>). </p><p>I also have a personal copy of <i>MRR</i> 3 – the 1986 final superseding supplement, replacing the older 1960 supplement, – and am happy to consult my copy of <i>MRR</i> 3 on request. Because <i>MRR</i> 3 is still in copyright, probably until 2063, I cannot distribute any copies thereof. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2"><h2 id="Views_on_citation_and_sources">Views on citation and sources</h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Views on citation and sources"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1236090951">.mw-parser-output .hatnote{font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output div.hatnote{padding-left:1.6em;margin-bottom:0.5em}.mw-parser-output .hatnote i{font-style:normal}.mw-parser-output .hatnote+link+.hatnote{margin-top:-0.5em}@media print{body.ns-0 .mw-parser-output .hatnote{display:none!important}}</style><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">See also: <a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Useful_sources_(Rome)" title="User:Ifly6/Useful sources (Rome)">User:Ifly6/Useful sources (Rome)</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Useful_sources_(Greece)" title="User:Ifly6/Useful sources (Greece)">User:Ifly6/Useful sources (Greece)</a>, and <a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Useful_formatting" title="User:Ifly6/Useful formatting">User:Ifly6/Useful formatting</a></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Citations_must_be_specific_and_templated">Citations must be specific and templated</h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Citations must be specific and templated"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_templates" title="Wikipedia:Citation templates">Usage of templates</a> such as <a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_book" title="Template:Cite book">Template:Cite book</a> and <a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_journal" title="Template:Cite journal">Template:Cite journal</a> ought to be compulsory (and you should use all the relevant paramaters, especially <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">edition</q>). There are clear network effects from having a consistent, widely used, easily parseable citation system.<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-2"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> They ought to be put in hand in earnest: plain-text short citations quickly run into missing anchors ("What is Smith 1950?") and cannot be readily identified for fixing. See eg this Harv-error drive on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_Greece_and_Rome#List_of_your_articles_that_are_in_Category:Harv_and_Sfn_no-target_errors,_2025" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome">WP:CGR</a>. Not using <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Sfn" title="Template:Sfn">sfn</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> and <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Harvnb" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Harvnb">harvnb</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> given the tools that have grown up around it is, frankly, another way of trying to hide and make citation errors. <b><a href="/wiki/Category:Harv_and_Sfn_no-target_errors#Displaying_error_messages" title="Category:Harv and Sfn no-target errors">Please install the script to see the template warnings.</a></b> </p><p>Pinpoint citations also should be compulsory. Even worse is when editors point to a source nobody else can find or read;<sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-3"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> Wikipedians should reject such sources which are so reliant on assertion and faith. Both are little better than saying "trust me". </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Sources_must_be_academic_and_modern">Sources must be academic and modern</h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Sources must be academic and modern"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236090951"><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">Further information: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Primary_sources_in_classics" title="Wikipedia:Primary sources in classics">Wikipedia:Primary sources in classics</a></div> <p>I feel also that there is a major problem with old sources on Wikipedia. Just because you found something in some <a href="/wiki/Dictionary_of_Greek_and_Roman_Biography_and_Mythology" title="Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology">hundred-fifty year old book</a> does not mean that it is reflective of the <b>current</b> scholarship.<sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-4"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>4<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> Just because Herodotus, Plutarch, Suetonius, or some other ancient historian said "this is how it happened" does not make it true.<sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-5"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>5<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> The factual validity of the ancient (and, for us, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Classical_Greece_and_Rome/Guides/Primary_sources" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome/Guides/Primary sources">primary</a>)<sup id="cite_ref-6" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-6"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>6<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> sources is heavily questioned in modern scholarship.<sup id="cite_ref-7" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-7"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>7<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> Nor should we be accepting things simply on Mommsen's reputation; scholars and archaeologists have done excellent work since the 19th century and yielded many much-needed corrections.<sup id="cite_ref-8" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-8"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>8<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> Also, if your contributions are literally just regurgitating what you saw in HBO's <i>Rome</i>, please stop. </p><p>Textual criticism has gone a long way since the 19th century. It is simply not the case that the classical texts are "unchanging" or otherwise that somehow people in the 19th century got everything right even on the texts themselves. For example, D R Shakleton-Bailey, writing in the 1999 Loeb edition of <i>Letters of Atticus</i>, summarises significant advances in critically correcting previous "fragments of earlier manuscripts, and, importantly, reports from a variety of sources" and similar advances in chronological assignment of Cicero's letters.<sup id="cite_ref-9" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-9"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>9<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> If you want to read a lot about the (somewhat dry) but very important field of <a href="/wiki/Emendation_(textual)" class="mw-redirect" title="Emendation (textual)">emendation</a> just read extracts from <a href="/wiki/A_E_Housman" class="mw-redirect" title="A E Housman">A E Housman</a>. </p><p>Similarly, editors ought not rely so heavily on mass market books, inter alia Tom Holland,<sup id="cite_ref-10" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-10"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>10<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-11" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-11"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>11<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> which repeat discredited interpretations or regurgitate the ancient sources reflexively. Archaeological evidence is not some idle boast. It is extremely important. We know much of the extent and magnitude of Gracchan land reform only because we have recovered their boundary stones. We know about the Roman market economy's extent in trade of staple goods only because we have recovered the amphora.<sup id="cite_ref-12" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-12"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>12<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-13" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-13"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>13<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> Modern academic sources that engage with multiple disciplines should always be preferred. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Cribbing_the_OCD_for_primary_sources">Cribbing the <i>OCD</i> for primary sources</h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Cribbing the OCD for primary sources"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236090951"><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">Further information: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT">WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT</a></div> <p>It feels at times as if some editors are writing articles by reading some reference work – usually Smith's <i>Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography</i>, the <i>Oxford Classical Dictionary</i>, or Broughton's <i>Magistrates of the Roman Republic</i> – for the primary sources. Then they read the primary sources and base the article on those. This is, frankly, really bad. It runs into the exact problems that plague those primary sources. The primary sources (eg Plutarch, Appian, Livy, etc), although secondary sources in their day, are not internally reliable enough to base a whole narrative around. There is great suspicion that the stories in them are purposefully embellished and not wholly factual. </p><p>Even if we ignore the issues with the primary sources and the need to use them with care, editors should be honest about where they are getting their information: if you found it in Smith or the OCD, say so. Don't lie like <a href="/wiki/Robert_Graves" title="Robert Graves">Robert Graves</a> and pretend that you did your own original research when you just copied the primary sources from a reference work.<sup id="cite_ref-14" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-14"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>14<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> We have modern sources. They are readily available. You can cite both them and the primary sources like Plutarch and Appian, after reading the modern assessment of accuracy on some point. These are not ancient Chinese secrets. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2"><h2 id="Annoyances">Annoyances</h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Annoyances"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>This section details what I think are some annoyances. These are my views only. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Points_and_capitalisation">Points and capitalisation</h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Points and capitalisation"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>Omit all unnecessary punctuation. Thus, not <span class="example deprecated-content example-bad" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-removed, #8B0000);">e.g.,</span> but <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">eg</q>, <span class="example deprecated-content example-bad" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-removed, #8B0000);">T. R. S. Broughton</span> but <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">T R S Broughton</q>. As to capitalisation, in general I agree with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NCCAPS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NCCAPS">WP:NCCAPS</a>' deference to <i>academic</i> styles: </p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1244412712">.mw-parser-output .templatequote{overflow:hidden;margin:1em 0;padding:0 32px}.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{line-height:1.5em;text-align:left;margin-top:0}@media(min-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{padding-left:1.6em}}</style><blockquote class="templatequote"> <p>[T]he Wikipedia MoS and naming conventions are a consensus-based balance between them, <i>drawing primarily upon academic style</i>, not journalistic or marketing/business styles... </p> </blockquote> <p>I also think the standard should be raised from <span class="example deprecated-content example-bad" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-removed, #8B0000);">consistently capitalised in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources</span> to <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">almost universally capitalised in academic sources</q>. Thus, if there is any doubt about capitalisation, decapitalise it. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Brutus's_conspiracy,_Marius's_consulship,_etc."><span id="Brutus.27s_conspiracy.2C_Marius.27s_consulship.2C_etc."></span>Brutus's conspiracy, Marius's consulship, etc.</h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Brutus's conspiracy, Marius's consulship, etc."><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>For classical names, you can use a trailing apostrophe alone. I don't think anyone should bother changing whole articles one way or the other, but I will defend that the trailing apostrophe alone is entirely and absolutely acceptable. </p><p>I'll just quote: </p> <blockquote> <p>Use an apostrophe alone after classical or classicizing names ending in <i>s</i> or <i>es</i>: ... Herodotus'... Venus'... Xerxes'... Erasmus'... Themistocles'... This traditional practice in classical works is still employed by many scholars. Certainly follow it for longer names... as well as for the post-classical Latinate names favoured throughout the Middle Ages.<sup id="cite_ref-15" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-15"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>15<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> </p> </blockquote> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Useless_archive_links">Useless archive links</h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Useless archive links"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>The citation templates all support the addition of archive links: <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|archive-url=</code>. <b>Adding archive links for live sites is a waste of your time</b> and is, as far as I can tell, largely done to pad edit counts. </p> <ol><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ARCHIVEEARLY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ARCHIVEEARLY">WP:ARCHIVEEARLY</a> is <b>not a policy, guideline, or recommendation</b>. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DEADREF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DEADREF">WP:DEADREF</a> <b>does not</b> require or recommend <i>addition</i> of archive links as much as it does <i>creation</i> of archives. Now...</li> <li><i>Archives for every single link added to Wikipedia are created automatically</i> by Internet Archive.<sup id="cite_ref-16" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-16"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>16<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li> <li><i>Internet Archive bot already edits all links that become dead to include the archive link</i>.<sup id="cite_ref-17" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-17"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>17<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li></ol> <p>Thus, adding archive links to live sites to preempt their (not always likely) death like this is completely unnecessary. They are also many times cruft-inducing or plainly useless. First, on the cruft. The following is from a single reference on an old version of <a href="/wiki/Julius_Caesar" title="Julius Caesar">Julius Caesar</a>. It should read <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Suet. <i>Iul.</i>, 1; Plut. <i>Caes.</i>, 1; Vell. Pat., 2.41.</q> Instead, it reads: </p> <pre><ref>Suetonius, ''Julius'' [https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Julius*.html#1 1] {{Webarchive|url=https://archive.today/20120530163202/http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Julius*.html#1 |date=30 May 2012 }}; Plutarch, ''Caesar'' [https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Caesar*.html#1 1] {{Webarchive|url=http://webarchive.loc.gov/all/20180213130122/http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/plutarch/lives/caesar%2A.html#1 |date=13 February 2018 }}; Velleius Paterculus, ''Roman History'' [https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Velleius_Paterculus/2B*.html#41 2.41] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220731043323/https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Velleius_Paterculus/2B%2A.html#41 |date=31 July 2022 }}</ref> </pre> <p>This is hard to parse in the editor and when multiple references are chained in sequence, extremely difficult to get through. Removing them shortened the article by around <span style="color: Maroon;"><b>28,000</b></span> bytes. Furthermore, the "archives" automatically generated for many links, especially those to paywalled sites, are completely useless. See, for example, these archive links to <a href="/wiki/Jstor" class="mw-redirect" title="Jstor">Jstor</a>, a site which is almost certainly not going down any time soon: </p> <pre><ref>{{Cite journal |last=Steel |first=Catherine |date=2014 |title=The Roman senate and the post-Sullan "res publica" |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/24432812 |journal=Historia: Zeitschrift für Alte Geschichte |volume=63 |issue=3 |pages=323–339 |doi=10.25162/historia-2014-0018 |jstor=24432812 |s2cid=151289863 |issn=0018-2311 |access-date=26 May 2022 |archive-date=26 May 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220526152815/https://www.jstor.org/stable/24432812 |url-status=live }}</ref> </pre> <p>That <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220526152815/https://www.jstor.org/stable/24432812">archive link</a> points to a <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://i.imgur.com/1Dow25O.jpg"><b>blank page</b></a>. It does not help that the archive dates commonly added are <i>wrong</i> and postdate <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|access-date=</code> (though not in this instance). </p><p>Among other discussions, see: </p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1116488514">.mw-parser-output .treeview ul{padding:0;margin:0}.mw-parser-output .treeview li{padding:0;margin:0;list-style-type:none;list-style-image:none}.mw-parser-output .treeview li li{background:url("https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Treeview-grey-line.png")no-repeat 0 -2981px;padding-left:21px;text-indent:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .treeview li li:last-child{background-position:0 -5971px}.mw-parser-output .treeview li.emptyline>ul>.mw-empty-elt:first-child+.emptyline,.mw-parser-output .treeview li.emptyline>ul>li:first-child{background-position:0 9px}</style><div class="treeview"> <ul><li>Village pump <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_179#Can_we_come_to_a_consensus_on_when_it_is_appropriate_to_"rescue"_live_links_in_an_article_with_IABot?" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 179">Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 179#Can we come to a consensus on when it is appropriate to "rescue" live links in an article with IABot?</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)/Archive_56#Using_a_tool_to_archive_live_links" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)/Archive 56">Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)/Archive 56#Using a tool to archive live links</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Bots" title="Wikipedia:Bots">Wikipedia:Bots</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard/Archive_11#Archiving_links_not_dead_-_good_idea?" title="Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard/Archive 11">Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard/Archive 11#Archiving links not dead - good idea?</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard/Archive_11#Archiving_live_links_-_Redux" title="Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard/Archive 11">Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard/Archive 11#Archiving live links - Redux</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard/Archive_18#Internet_Archive_bot_cruft" title="Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard/Archive 18">Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard/Archive 18#Internet Archive bot cruft</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Link_rot" title="Wikipedia talk:Link rot">Wikipedia talk:Link rot</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Link_rot#Mass_additions_of_archive_links_for_live_sites" title="Wikipedia talk:Link rot">Wikipedia talk:Link rot#Mass additions of archive links for live sites</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Link_rot#Archiving_hundreds_of_healthy_(live)_sources" title="Wikipedia talk:Link rot">Wikipedia talk:Link rot#Archiving hundreds of healthy (live) sources</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources#Talk:Donald_Trump_and_using_WP:LOCALCON_to_disallow_citation_archives" title="Wikipedia talk:Citing sources">Wikipedia talk:Citing sources#Talk:Donald Trump and using WP:LOCALCON to disallow citation archives</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_69#Archiving_of_live_links" title="Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 69">Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 69#Archiving of live links</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_74#Archive_links" title="Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 74">Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 74#Archive links</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive297#Discussion_at_User_talk:Samee_-_Automated_tool_use" title="Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive297">Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive297#Discussion at User talk:Samee - Automated tool use</a></li></ul></li></ul> </div> <p>There is no consensus in favour of mass addition of archive links to live websites. Some articles have clear consensuses against doing so. I think the same rationale applies elsewhere. Regardless, this "archive everything" mind virus is of extremely middling value to the encyclopaedia while incurring substantial costs for editors. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="And_this_eventually_led_to_the_Roman_empire!"><span id="And_this_eventually_led_to_the_Roman_empire.21"></span>And this eventually led to the <i>Roman empire!</i></h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: And this eventually led to the Roman empire!"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>There is absolutely no need to constantly add <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">And XYZius' actions led to these other actions that eventually led to the formation of the Roman empire</q>. This is classic <a href="/wiki/Whig_history" title="Whig history">whig history</a> in the exact way Butterfield criticised English historians of anachronistically projecting parliamentary-democracy-awesome into the <a href="/wiki/English_Civil_War" title="English Civil War">English Civil War</a>. The Parliamentarians were not democrats.<sup id="cite_ref-18" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-18"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>18<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> Nor were the Gracchans or Marians proto-democrats or secret Augustan-style autocrats.<sup id="cite_ref-19" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-19"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>19<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> </p><p><a href="/wiki/Tiberius_Gracchus" title="Tiberius Gracchus">Tiberius Gracchus</a> did not set up the Roman empire. He was not intending to set up the Roman empire. Land reform was connected to (1) gaining political power and clients and (2) dealing with the shortfall of soldiers in the census.<sup id="cite_ref-20" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-20"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>20<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> <a href="/wiki/Gaius_Marius" title="Gaius Marius">Gaius Marius</a> also did not set up the Roman empire. He was not intending to set up the Roman empire. While he did do some murdering at the end of his life – which nobody should be defending – hiring soldiers from the poor was temporary and meant to find men to fight without resorting to unpopular (but still feasible) conscription.<sup id="cite_ref-21" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-21"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>21<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> Both men need to be understood in terms of their times and not as an modern politicians or as proto-autocrats in hindsight. </p><p>If you're going to do a <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">This eventually led to the Roman empire!</q> sort of comment, some kind of explanation would be needed. Who believes this? For what reasons? How did it contribute to the later event? Is there consensus on that attribution? Teleological history, regardless, should be avoided. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Populares_and_optimates_as_political_parties"><i>Populares</i> and <i>optimates</i> as political parties</h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: Populares and optimates as political parties"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p><b>They were not political parties.</b> Some scholars think they were ideologies, a topic of heated debate.<sup id="cite_ref-22" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-22"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>22<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> And recent work has shown they are modern label of which Romans knew nothing.<sup id="cite_ref-23" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-23"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>23<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> I will grant that there is a long history of using <i>populares</i> and <i>optimates</i> to describe Roman politics, made famous by Mommsen. I will also grant that there is a reason for us to have stuff like categories for <i>populares</i> as an affordance for readers. But this party politics standpoint is not where the scholarship has gone.<sup id="cite_ref-24" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-24"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>24<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> </p><p>What that means, I think, for Wikipedia editors, is that we shouldn't be putting <i>populares</i> in everywhere. We need to be judicious. This is especially true with infoboxes, which <a href="/wiki/MOS:INFOBOX" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INFOBOX">per the Manual of Style</a> are <i>supplements</i> to articles. First, if the article does not say that a person is <i>popularis</i>, it should not include it in the infobox. Second, <b>if the <i>populares</i> are not political parties, they cannot also be factions in a civil war</b>. This also requires us to reflect critically about the sources we use. Many old sources, especially before the 1930s, talk in party politics terms. That does not make them reflective of current scholarship. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AGE_MATTERS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AGE MATTERS">Age matters</a>. Classical scholarship moves slowly, but that does not mean it is still. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2"><h2 id="Major_contributions">Major contributions</h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: Major contributions"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="People">People</h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: People"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Ciceronean_and_later">Ciceronean and later</h4><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=14" title="Edit section: Ciceronean and later"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1184024115">.mw-parser-output .div-col{margin-top:0.3em;column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .div-col-small{font-size:90%}.mw-parser-output .div-col-rules{column-rule:1px solid #aaa}.mw-parser-output .div-col dl,.mw-parser-output .div-col ol,.mw-parser-output .div-col ul{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .div-col li,.mw-parser-output .div-col dd{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}</style><div class="div-col"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Catiline" title="Catiline">Catiline</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Julius_Caesar" title="Julius Caesar">Julius Caesar</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Cato_the_Younger" title="Cato the Younger">Cato the Younger</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Publius_Clodius_Pulcher" title="Publius Clodius Pulcher">Publius Clodius Pulcher</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Marcus_Junius_Brutus" title="Marcus Junius Brutus">Marcus Junius Brutus</a></li></ul> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Prequels">Prequels</h4><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=15" title="Edit section: Prequels"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1184024115"><div class="div-col"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Lycurgus" title="Lycurgus">Lycurgus</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Marcus_Furius_Camillus" title="Marcus Furius Camillus">Marcus Furius Camillus</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Scipio_Africanus" title="Scipio Africanus">Scipio Africanus</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Tiberius_Gracchus" title="Tiberius Gracchus">Tiberius Gracchus</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Gaius_Gracchus" title="Gaius Gracchus">Gaius Gracchus</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Marcus_Aemilius_Scaurus_(consul_115_BC)" title="Marcus Aemilius Scaurus (consul 115 BC)">Marcus Aemilius Scaurus (consul 115 BC)</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Gaius_Marius" title="Gaius Marius">Gaius Marius</a> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Talk:Gaius_Marius/GA2" title="Talk:Gaius Marius/GA2"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185" /></a></span></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Lucius_Cornelius_Cinna" title="Lucius Cornelius Cinna">Lucius Cornelius Cinna</a></li></ul> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Topics">Topics</h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=16" title="Edit section: Topics"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Good_articles">Good articles</h4><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=17" title="Edit section: Good articles"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1184024115"><div class="div-col"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Roman_Republic" title="Constitution of the Roman Republic">Constitution of the Roman Republic</a> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Talk:Catilinarian_conspiracy/GA1" title="Talk:Catilinarian conspiracy/GA1"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185" /></a></span></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Roman_monarchy" title="Overthrow of the Roman monarchy">Overthrow of the Roman monarchy</a> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Talk:Catilinarian_conspiracy/GA1" title="Talk:Catilinarian conspiracy/GA1"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185" /></a></span></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Catilinarian_conspiracy" title="Catilinarian conspiracy">Catilinarian conspiracy</a> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Talk:Catilinarian_conspiracy/GA1" title="Talk:Catilinarian conspiracy/GA1"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185" /></a></span></li> <li><a href="/wiki/First_Catilinarian_conspiracy" title="First Catilinarian conspiracy">First Catilinarian conspiracy</a> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Talk:First_Catilinarian_conspiracy/GA1" title="Talk:First Catilinarian conspiracy/GA1"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185" /></a></span></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Marian_reforms" title="Marian reforms">Marian reforms</a> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Talk:Marian_reforms/GA1" title="Talk:Marian reforms/GA1"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185" /></a></span></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Roman%E2%80%93Seleucid_war" title="Roman–Seleucid war">Roman–Seleucid war</a> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Talk:Roman%E2%80%93Seleucid_war/GA2" title="Talk:Roman–Seleucid war/GA2"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/15px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/23px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/30px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185" /></a></span></li></ul> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Ancient_world">Ancient world</h4><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=18" title="Edit section: Ancient world"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1184024115"><div class="div-col"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Bellum_Octavianum" title="Bellum Octavianum">Bellum Octavianum</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Caesar%27s_civil_war" title="Caesar's civil war">Caesar's civil war</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Centuriate_assembly" title="Centuriate assembly">Centuriate assembly</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Consular_tribune" title="Consular tribune">Consular tribune</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/First_Triumvirate" title="First Triumvirate">First Triumvirate</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Founding_of_Rome" title="Founding of Rome">Founding of Rome</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Optimates_and_populares" title="Optimates and populares">Optimates and populares</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Quaestio_perpetua" title="Quaestio perpetua">Quaestio perpetua</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Quaestor" title="Quaestor">Quaestor</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Roman_dictator" title="Roman dictator">Roman dictator</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Roman%E2%80%93Seleucid_War" class="mw-redirect" title="Roman–Seleucid War">Roman–Seleucid War</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Second_Triumvirate" title="Second Triumvirate">Second Triumvirate</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Social_War_(91%E2%80%9387_BC)" title="Social War (91–87 BC)">Social War (91–87 BC)</a></li></ul> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Modern_world">Modern world</h4><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=19" title="Edit section: Modern world"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1184024115"><div class="div-col"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Whig_history" title="Whig history">Whig history</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Collapse_of_Silicon_Valley_Bank" title="Collapse of Silicon Valley Bank">Collapse of Silicon Valley Bank</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis" title="Savings and loan crisis">Savings and loan crisis</a></li></ul> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2"><h2 id="Minor_contributions">Minor contributions</h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=20" title="Edit section: Minor contributions"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236090951"><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">Further information: <a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Minor_contributions" title="User:Ifly6/Minor contributions">User:Ifly6/Minor contributions</a></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2"><h2 id="To-do_list">To-do list</h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=21" title="Edit section: To-do list"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>I keep this list largely so I can keep track of my own projects. But if you see something that you think is interesting here, do feel free to set up (if not present) or comment on the relevant talk page. Constructive feedback is always appreciated. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Priority">Priority</h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=22" title="Edit section: Priority"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1184024115"><div class="div-col"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Conflict_of_the_Orders" title="User:Ifly6/Conflict of the Orders">User:Ifly6/Conflict of the Orders</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Marcus_Vipsanius_Agrippa" title="User:Ifly6/Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa">User:Ifly6/Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa</a></li> <li>Expand <a href="/wiki/Fasces#Post-classical_reception" title="Fasces">Fasces#Post-classical reception</a> vis-à-vis fascism</li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/War_of_Philippi" title="User:Ifly6/War of Philippi">User:Ifly6/War of Philippi</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Elections_in_the_Roman_Republic" title="User:Ifly6/Elections in the Roman Republic">User:Ifly6/Elections in the Roman Republic</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Tribal_assembly" title="User:Ifly6/Tribal assembly">User:Ifly6/Tribal assembly</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Curiate_assembly" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Ifly6/Curiate assembly">User:Ifly6/Curiate assembly</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Plebeian_tribune" title="User:Ifly6/Plebeian tribune">User:Ifly6/Plebeian tribune</a></li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6/Assassination_of_Julius_Caesar&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ifly6/Assassination of Julius Caesar (page does not exist)">User:Ifly6/Assassination of Julius Caesar</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Cicero" title="User:Ifly6/Cicero">User:Ifly6/Cicero</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Roman_calendar" title="User:Ifly6/Roman calendar">User:Ifly6/Roman calendar</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Equites" title="User:Ifly6/Equites">User:Ifly6/Equites</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Pyrrhic_War" title="User:Ifly6/Pyrrhic War">User:Ifly6/Pyrrhic War</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Roman_assemblies" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Ifly6/Roman assemblies">User:Ifly6/Roman assemblies</a></li></ul> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Non-priority">Non-priority</h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=23" title="Edit section: Non-priority"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1184024115"><div class="div-col"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Latin_rights" title="User:Ifly6/Latin rights">User:Ifly6/Latin rights</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Roman_consul" title="User:Ifly6/Roman consul">User:Ifly6/Roman consul</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Optimates_and_populares_2" title="User:Ifly6/Optimates and populares 2">User:Ifly6/Optimates and populares 2</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Crisis_of_the_Roman_Republic" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Ifly6/Crisis of the Roman Republic">User:Ifly6/Crisis of the Roman Republic</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Tresviri_capitales" title="User:Ifly6/Tresviri capitales">User:Ifly6/Tresviri capitales</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Provocatio" title="User:Ifly6/Provocatio">User:Ifly6/Provocatio</a></li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6/Gaius_Maecenas&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ifly6/Gaius Maecenas (page does not exist)">User:Ifly6/Gaius Maecenas</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Servian_tribes" title="User:Ifly6/Servian tribes">User:Ifly6/Servian tribes</a></li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6/Mithridatic_wars&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ifly6/Mithridatic wars (page does not exist)">User:Ifly6/Mithridatic wars</a></li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6/First_Mithridatic_war&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ifly6/First Mithridatic war (page does not exist)">User:Ifly6/First Mithridatic war</a></li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6/Second_Mithridatic_war&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ifly6/Second Mithridatic war (page does not exist)">User:Ifly6/Second Mithridatic war</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Constitution_of_the_Roman_Empire" title="User:Ifly6/Constitution of the Roman Empire">User:Ifly6/Constitution of the Roman Empire</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus" title="User:Ifly6/Lucius Tarquinius Superbus">User:Ifly6/Lucius Tarquinius Superbus</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Peloponnesian_War" title="User:Ifly6/Peloponnesian War">User:Ifly6/Peloponnesian War</a></li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6/Roman_censor&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ifly6/Roman censor (page does not exist)">User:Ifly6/Roman censor</a></li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6/First_Macedonian_War&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ifly6/First Macedonian War (page does not exist)">User:Ifly6/First Macedonian War</a></li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6/Second_Macedonian_War&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ifly6/Second Macedonian War (page does not exist)">User:Ifly6/Second Macedonian War</a></li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6/Third_Macedonian_War&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ifly6/Third Macedonian War (page does not exist)">User:Ifly6/Third Macedonian War</a></li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6/Fourth_Macedonian_War&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ifly6/Fourth Macedonian War (page does not exist)">User:Ifly6/Fourth Macedonian War</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Parallel_Lives_(issues)" title="User:Ifly6/Parallel Lives (issues)">User:Ifly6/Parallel Lives (issues)</a></li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6/Roman_colonisation&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ifly6/Roman colonisation (page does not exist)">User:Ifly6/Roman colonisation</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Timaeus_(historian)" title="User:Ifly6/Timaeus (historian)">User:Ifly6/Timaeus (historian)</a></li></ul> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2"><h2 id="Old_drafts">Old drafts</h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=24" title="Edit section: Old drafts"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1236090951"><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">Further information: <a href="/wiki/User:Ifly6/Old_drafts" title="User:Ifly6/Old drafts">User:Ifly6/Old drafts</a> and <a href="/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex/User:Ifly6" title="Special:PrefixIndex/User:Ifly6">Special:PrefixIndex/User:Ifly6</a></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2"><h2 id="Notes">Notes</h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&action=edit&section=25" title="Edit section: Notes"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist reflist-columns references-column-width" style="column-width: 30em;"> <ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-1">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">I am wholly uninterested in getting into the classical studies academic rat-race. They skin people alive (financially) out there.</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-2"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-2">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">I say all this even though <a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_book" title="Template:Cite book">Template:Cite book</a> is not what I would prefer (<a href="/wiki/OSCOLA" class="mw-redirect" title="OSCOLA">OSCOLA</a>). In part, this is because templates like <a href="/wiki/Template:Sfn" title="Template:Sfn">Template:Sfn</a> allow for direct links to the thing being cited. And cite-book also allows for easy links to the direct resources available. This is important for verification or further reading.</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-3"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-3">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">For example, if your source is an unpublished thesis from a defunct university that appears nowhere in any catalogues like ProQuest, that is not a verifiable source. (As in literally verifiable by others.) Nor is some 19th century book with a print run of two that exists only in the dingiest back corner of the British Library. You could claim anything about the contents of that book.</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-4"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-4">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><i>DGRBM</i>, for example, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0104%3Aalphabetic+letter%3DC%3Aentry+group%3D14%3Aentry%3Dcatilina-l-sergius-bio-1">reports</a> the <a href="/wiki/First_Catilinarian_conspiracy" title="First Catilinarian conspiracy">First Catilinarian conspiracy</a> as if it happened ("we shall discover no reasonable ground for ... any doubts with regard to ... the facts as presented to us by Sallust"). It is the scholarly consensus today that such a conspiracy never happened and is fictitious.</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-5"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-5">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">Herodotus, widely known as the father of history and of lies, did not care about his sources and threw it in if he heard it (almost like Wikipedia). Plutarch was a moralistic conservative who wrote history-involved morality plays as much as he wrote history. Suetonius was in it for the meme and the virality. A lot of the time the various written sources also disagree. Getting to the truth of the matter requires expertise and scholarship.</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-6"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-6">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">"Primary sources in Classics are the literary works (poems, plays, and histories, for example), and artifacts (pottery, coins and sculptures, for example) and other materials from the ancient world". <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite id="CITEREFMcLean" class="citation web cs1">McLean, Valla. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://libguides.macewan.ca/classics/primarysources">"Subject Guides / Classics / Primary Sources"</a>. <i>MacEwan University</i><span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">2022-05-10</span></span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=unknown&rft.jtitle=MacEwan+University&rft.atitle=Subject+Guides+%2F+Classics+%2F+Primary+Sources&rft.aulast=McLean&rft.aufirst=Valla&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Flibguides.macewan.ca%2Fclassics%2Fprimarysources&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span> Appian, Plutarch, etc categorised under primary sources: <ul><li><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://guides.library.georgetown.edu/classics/primary">https://guides.library.georgetown.edu/classics/primary</a></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://libguides.luc.edu/classical_studies/primary_source_collections">https://libguides.luc.edu/classical_studies/primary_source_collections</a></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://guides.library.lincoln.ac.uk/c.php?g=664812&p=4705537">https://guides.library.lincoln.ac.uk/c.php?g=664812&p=4705537</a></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://libguides.lib.umanitoba.ca/c.php?g=297880&p=1987265">https://libguides.lib.umanitoba.ca/c.php?g=297880&p=1987265</a></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://guides.lib.umich.edu/c.php?g=282804&p=6351945">https://guides.lib.umich.edu/c.php?g=282804&p=6351945</a></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://umb.libguides.com/c.php?g=350822&p=2467977">https://umb.libguides.com/c.php?g=350822&p=2467977</a></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://guides.libraries.emory.edu/c.php?g=156841&p=1028163">https://guides.libraries.emory.edu/c.php?g=156841&p=1028163</a></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://guides.library.uq.edu.au/classics/primary-sources">https://guides.library.uq.edu.au/classics/primary-sources</a></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://libguides.macewan.ca/classics/primarysources">https://libguides.macewan.ca/classics/primarysources</a></li></ul> </span></li> <li id="cite_note-7"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-7">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">If you pull out a modern edition of something even light-hearted like <a href="/wiki/Valerius_Maximus" title="Valerius Maximus">Valerius Maximus</a> you will find footnotes all over the place just saying that this or that assertion was wrong. With the early Roman republic, scholars have been extremely sceptical of the narrative sources. Of the late republic, where the sources are best, they are still regularly contradictory. See eg <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFTempest2017" class="citation book cs1">Tempest, Kathryn (2017). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://dx.doi.org/10.2307/j.ctv1bzfpdn"><i>Brutus: the noble conspirator</i></a>. Yale University Press. pp. 246 et seq. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-300-23126-7" title="Special:BookSources/978-0-300-23126-7"><bdi>978-0-300-23126-7</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Brutus%3A+the+noble+conspirator&rft.pages=246+et+seq&rft.pub=Yale+University+Press&rft.date=2017&rft.isbn=978-0-300-23126-7&rft.aulast=Tempest&rft.aufirst=Kathryn&rft_id=http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10.2307%2Fj.ctv1bzfpdn&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span> There you will just find a table noting what every available source says about Brutus' activities after the assassination. Looking across it, you will also find quickly they (Plutarch, Appian, and Cassius Dio) do not all agree... and not just on minor things. </span> </li> <li id="cite_note-8"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-8">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">For example: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFDrogula2015" class="citation book cs1">Drogula, Fred K (2015). <i>Commanders and command in the Roman republic and early Empire</i>. University of North Carolina Press. p. 314. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-1-4696-2126-5" title="Special:BookSources/978-1-4696-2126-5"><bdi>978-1-4696-2126-5</bdi></a>. <q>Although Mommsen supplied no evidence to support this position, his scholarly <i>auctoritas</i> was sufficient to sustain his argument in spite of the fact that a series of historians have demonstrated conclusively that this restriction on consuls [the supposed <i>lex Cornelia de provinciis ordinandis</i>] did not exist...</q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Commanders+and+command+in+the+Roman+republic+and+early+Empire&rft.pages=314&rft.pub=University+of+North+Carolina+Press&rft.date=2015&rft.isbn=978-1-4696-2126-5&rft.aulast=Drogula&rft.aufirst=Fred+K&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-9"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-9">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFShackleton_Bailey1999" class="citation book cs1"><a href="/wiki/D_R_Shackleton_Bailey" class="mw-redirect" title="D R Shackleton Bailey">Shackleton Bailey, D R</a> (1999). Introduction. <i>Letters to Atticus</i>. By Cicero. Loeb Classical Library. Vol. 1. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. pp. <span class="nowrap">22–</span>24.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Introduction&rft.btitle=Letters+to+Atticus&rft.place=Cambridge&rft.series=Loeb+Classical+Library&rft.pages=%3Cspan+class%3D%22nowrap%22%3E22-%3C%2Fspan%3E24&rft.pub=Harvard+University+Press&rft.date=1999&rft.aulast=Shackleton+Bailey&rft.aufirst=D+R&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-10"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-10">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">Re <i>Rubicon</i>: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFWeber2004" class="citation journal cs1">Weber, Ronald J (2004-01-01). "Review of "Rubicon: the last years of the Roman republic"<span class="cs1-kern-right"></span>". <i>History: reviews of new books</i>. <b>32</b> (4): <span class="nowrap">166–</span>166. <a href="/wiki/Doi_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="Doi (identifier)">doi</a>:<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.1080%2F03612759.2004.10527455">10.1080/03612759.2004.10527455</a>. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/0361-2759">0361-2759</a>. <q><i>It lacks a thorough critical analysis of its primary sources</i>... [and] draws almost exclusively from written accounts, ignoring the physical remains of the period. His account focuses on politics over social and economic trends, and his consideration of the vast amounts of scholarship about the period is [very limited]... students would do better with [a reissue] of... Gruen's <i>The Last Generation of the Roman Republic</i>.</q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=History%3A+reviews+of+new+books&rft.atitle=Review+of+%22Rubicon%3A+the+last+years+of+the+Roman+republic%22&rft.volume=32&rft.issue=4&rft.pages=%3Cspan+class%3D%22nowrap%22%3E166-%3C%2Fspan%3E166&rft.date=2004-01-01&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1080%2F03612759.2004.10527455&rft.issn=0361-2759&rft.aulast=Weber&rft.aufirst=Ronald+J&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-11"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-11">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">So it is again with podcasts. Dan Carlin can repeat his story about <a href="/wiki/Gavrilo_Princip" title="Gavrilo Princip">Gavrilo Princip</a> ordering a sandwich all he wants. It does not become true. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFDash2011" class="citation web cs1">Dash, Mike (15 Sep 2011). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gavrilo-princips-sandwich-79480741/">"The origin of the tale that Gavrilo Princip was eating a sandwich..."</a> <i>Smithsonian Magazine</i><span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">2021-05-22</span></span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=unknown&rft.jtitle=Smithsonian+Magazine&rft.atitle=The+origin+of+the+tale+that+Gavrilo+Princip+was+eating+a+sandwich...&rft.date=2011-09-15&rft.aulast=Dash&rft.aufirst=Mike&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fhistory%2Fgavrilo-princips-sandwich-79480741%2F&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-12"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-12">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">See eg, a beautiful book, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFTemin2012" class="citation book cs1">Temin, Peter (2012). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Roman_Market_Economy.html?id=6jdxNZP3s50C"><i>The Roman market economy</i></a>. Princeton University Press. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-1-4008-4542-2" title="Special:BookSources/978-1-4008-4542-2"><bdi>978-1-4008-4542-2</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=The+Roman+market+economy&rft.pub=Princeton+University+Press&rft.date=2012&rft.isbn=978-1-4008-4542-2&rft.aulast=Temin&rft.aufirst=Peter&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%2Fabout%2FThe_Roman_Market_Economy.html%3Fid%3D6jdxNZP3s50C&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-13"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-13">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">Eg <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">If your textual source says that no one buys imported Gaulish wines, but you in fact find lots of wine amphorae from Gaul, your textual source is wrong and the amphorae are right</q>. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFDevereaux2022" class="citation web cs1">Devereaux, Bret (2022-02-11). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://acoup.blog/2022/02/11/collections-rome-decline-and-fall-part-iii-things/">"Rome: Decline and Fall? Part III: Things"</a>. <i>A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry</i>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=unknown&rft.jtitle=A+Collection+of+Unmitigated+Pedantry&rft.atitle=Rome%3A+Decline+and+Fall%3F+Part+III%3A+Things&rft.date=2022-02-11&rft.aulast=Devereaux&rft.aufirst=Bret&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Facoup.blog%2F2022%2F02%2F11%2Fcollections-rome-decline-and-fall-part-iii-things%2F&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-14"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-14">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">As to the lying allegation, see <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFStray2007" class="citation journal cs1">Stray, Christopher (2007). "Sir William Smith and his dictionaries". <i>Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies. Supplement</i> (101): <span class="nowrap">35–</span>54. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/2398-3264">2398-3264</a>. <a href="/wiki/JSTOR_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="JSTOR (identifier)">JSTOR</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/43768051">43768051</a>. <q>What Graves does not mention is that the sources used for his book were culled from Smith's dictionaries, as is clear from a comparison of his reference listings with Smith's own.</q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Bulletin+of+the+Institute+of+Classical+Studies.+Supplement&rft.atitle=Sir+William+Smith+and+his+dictionaries&rft.issue=101&rft.pages=%3Cspan+class%3D%22nowrap%22%3E35-%3C%2Fspan%3E54&rft.date=2007&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jstor.org%2Fstable%2F43768051%23id-name%3DJSTOR&rft.issn=2398-3264&rft.aulast=Stray&rft.aufirst=Christopher&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-15"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-15">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFRitter2002" class="citation book cs1">Ritter, R M (2002). <i>The Oxford guide to style</i>. Oxford University Press. p. 114. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-19-869175-0" title="Special:BookSources/0-19-869175-0"><bdi>0-19-869175-0</bdi></a>. <a href="/wiki/OCLC_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="OCLC (identifier)">OCLC</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/oclc/34244433">34244433</a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=The+Oxford+guide+to+style&rft.pages=114&rft.pub=Oxford+University+Press&rft.date=2002&rft_id=info%3Aoclcnum%2F34244433&rft.isbn=0-19-869175-0&rft.aulast=Ritter&rft.aufirst=R+M&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-16"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-16">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Links added by editors to the English Wikipedia mainspace are automatically saved to the Wayback Machine within about 24 hours</q>. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PLRT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PLRT">WP:PLRT</a>.</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-17"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-17">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">As of 2015, there is a Wikipedia bot and tool called <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IABOT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IABOT">WP:IABOT</a> that automates fixing link rot. It runs continuously, checking all articles on Wikipedia if a link is dead, adding archives to Wayback Machine... and replacing dead links in the wikitext with an archived version.</q> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PLRT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PLRT">WP:PLRT</a>.</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-18"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-18">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">Even if you believe that the <a href="/wiki/Levellers" title="Levellers">Levellers</a> were democrats, the Parliamentarians <i>in general</i> (who suppressed the Levellers by force and imprisoned their leaders) were not.</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-19"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-19">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">As much as political opponents to Tiberius Gracchus would like to assert, we have no evidence he was <i>actually</i> trying to make himself king. As to "democrats", "such exotic creatures did not exist in Roman public life". <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFMorstein-Marx2021" class="citation book cs1">Morstein-Marx, Robert (2021). <i>Julius Caesar and the Roman people</i>. Cambridge University Press. p. 580. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-1-108-83784-2" title="Special:BookSources/978-1-108-83784-2"><bdi>978-1-108-83784-2</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Julius+Caesar+and+the+Roman+people&rft.pages=580&rft.pub=Cambridge+University+Press&rft.date=2021&rft.isbn=978-1-108-83784-2&rft.aulast=Morstein-Marx&rft.aufirst=Robert&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-20"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-20">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">A manpower shortfall, which by the way, was illusory. Turns out people don't register for the census when they know they are going to be drafted into a sanguinary no-profit Hispanic war. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFRoselaar2010" class="citation book cs1">Roselaar, Saskia T (2010). <i>Public land in the Roman republic: a social and economic history of ager publicus in Italy, 396-89 BC</i>. Oxford University Press. p. 225. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-19-957723-1" title="Special:BookSources/978-0-19-957723-1"><bdi>978-0-19-957723-1</bdi></a>. <a href="/wiki/OCLC_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="OCLC (identifier)">OCLC</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/oclc/520714519">520714519</a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Public+land+in+the+Roman+republic%3A+a+social+and+economic+history+of+ager+publicus+in+Italy%2C+396-89+BC&rft.pages=225&rft.pub=Oxford+University+Press&rft.date=2010&rft_id=info%3Aoclcnum%2F520714519&rft.isbn=978-0-19-957723-1&rft.aulast=Roselaar&rft.aufirst=Saskia+T&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-21"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-21">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFRich1983" class="citation journal cs1">Rich, J W (1983). "The supposed Roman manpower shortage of the later second century BC". <i>Historia: Zeitschrift für Alte Geschichte</i>. <b>32</b> (3): 320. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/0018-2311">0018-2311</a>. <a href="/wiki/JSTOR_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="JSTOR (identifier)">JSTOR</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/4435854">4435854</a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Historia%3A+Zeitschrift+f%C3%BCr+Alte+Geschichte&rft.atitle=The+supposed+Roman+manpower+shortage+of+the+later+second+century+BC&rft.volume=32&rft.issue=3&rft.pages=320&rft.date=1983&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jstor.org%2Fstable%2F4435854%23id-name%3DJSTOR&rft.issn=0018-2311&rft.aulast=Rich&rft.aufirst=J+W&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-22"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-22">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFCorke-Webster2020" class="citation journal cs1">Corke-Webster, James (2020). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/greece-and-rome/article/abs/roman-history/8CCD079AEF0884EC42D65F9EBAFEB271">"Roman History"</a>. <i>Greece & Rome</i>. <b>67</b> (1): 100. <a href="/wiki/Doi_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="Doi (identifier)">doi</a>:<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.1017%2FS0017383519000287">10.1017/S0017383519000287</a>. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/0017-3835">0017-3835</a>. <a href="/wiki/S2CID_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="S2CID (identifier)">S2CID</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://api.semanticscholar.org/CorpusID:232177339">232177339</a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Greece+%26+Rome&rft.atitle=Roman+History&rft.volume=67&rft.issue=1&rft.pages=100&rft.date=2020&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fapi.semanticscholar.org%2FCorpusID%3A232177339%23id-name%3DS2CID&rft.issn=0017-3835&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1017%2FS0017383519000287&rft.aulast=Corke-Webster&rft.aufirst=James&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2Fcore%2Fjournals%2Fgreece-and-rome%2Farticle%2Fabs%2Froman-history%2F8CCD079AEF0884EC42D65F9EBAFEB271&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span> As to the debate itself, some people think <i>populares</i> believed in popular sovereignty while <i>optimates</i> believed in traditional government. People no longer associate corn doles with <i>populares</i> only (Cato, eg, expanded the corn dole during his tribunate). Basically every single issue was debated to death for-and-against by "both sides" during the republic; which puts something of a dent to there being "sides" in the first place. Even if there is an ideological tendency, <i>populares</i>-are-popular-sovereigntists is not entirely compatible with <i>populares</i> never advocating democratisation of the republic and how their policies usually cemented aristocratic control of the state. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFRobb2018" class="citation encyclopaedia cs1">Robb, M A (2018). "Optimates, populares". In Bagnall, Roger S; et al. (eds.). <i>The Encyclopedia of Ancient History</i>. John Wiley & Sons. <a href="/wiki/Doi_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="Doi (identifier)">doi</a>:<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.1002%2F9781444338386.wbeah20095">10.1002/9781444338386.wbeah20095</a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Optimates%2C+populares&rft.btitle=The+Encyclopedia+of+Ancient+History&rft.pub=John+Wiley+%26+Sons&rft.date=2018&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1002%2F9781444338386.wbeah20095&rft.aulast=Robb&rft.aufirst=M+A&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-23"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-23">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFRobb2010" class="citation book cs1">Robb, MA (2010). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=gf_IbwAACAAJ"><i>Beyond populares and optimates: political language in the late republic</i></a>. Steiner. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-3-515-09643-0" title="Special:BookSources/978-3-515-09643-0"><bdi>978-3-515-09643-0</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Beyond+populares+and+optimates%3A+political+language+in+the+late+republic&rft.pub=Steiner&rft.date=2010&rft.isbn=978-3-515-09643-0&rft.aulast=Robb&rft.aufirst=MA&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3Dgf_IbwAACAAJ&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-24"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-24">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">See, inter alia: <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFTempest2017" class="citation book cs1">Tempest, Kathryn (2017). <i>Brutus: the noble conspirator</i>. New Haven. p. 31. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-300-18009-1" title="Special:BookSources/978-0-300-18009-1"><bdi>978-0-300-18009-1</bdi></a>. <a href="/wiki/OCLC_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="OCLC (identifier)">OCLC</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/oclc/982651923">982651923</a>. <q>On a side note, it is important to understand that these terms - <i>boni</i> and <i>optimates</i> versus <i>popularis</i> (sing) and <i>populares</i> (pl) - did not constitute political 'parties' in any modern sense.</q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Brutus%3A+the+noble+conspirator&rft.place=New+Haven&rft.pages=31&rft.date=2017&rft_id=info%3Aoclcnum%2F982651923&rft.isbn=978-0-300-18009-1&rft.aulast=Tempest&rft.aufirst=Kathryn&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span><span class="cs1-maint citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_book" title="Template:Cite book">cite book</a>}}</code>: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (<a href="/wiki/Category:CS1_maint:_location_missing_publisher" title="Category:CS1 maint: location missing publisher">link</a>)</span></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFFlower2010" class="citation book cs1">Flower, Harriet (2010). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=p2eYDwAAQBAJ"><i>Roman republics</i></a>. Princeton: Princeton University Press. p. 150. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-691-14043-8" title="Special:BookSources/978-0-691-14043-8"><bdi>978-0-691-14043-8</bdi></a>. <q>Romans had not had political parties in the second century, nor did anything like clearly identifiable groups emerge after the period of the Gracchi. Party politics may have been in the air in 100, and later Cinna may briefly have had a party of sorts, but his political group had been destroyed and no one was eager to revive his memory.</q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Roman+republics&rft.place=Princeton&rft.pages=150&rft.pub=Princeton+University+Press&rft.date=2010&rft.isbn=978-0-691-14043-8&rft.aulast=Flower&rft.aufirst=Harriet&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3Dp2eYDwAAQBAJ&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFGruen1995" class="citation book cs1">Gruen, Erich (1995). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=8a4wDwAAQBAJ"><i>The last generation of the Roman republic</i></a>. Berkeley: University of California Press. p. 50. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-520-02238-6" title="Special:BookSources/0-520-02238-6"><bdi>0-520-02238-6</bdi></a>. <q>The phrase originates in an older scholarship which misapplied analogies and reduced Roman politics to a contest between the 'senatorial party' and the 'popular party'. Such labels obscure rather than enlighten.</q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=The+last+generation+of+the+Roman+republic&rft.place=Berkeley&rft.pages=50&rft.pub=University+of+California+Press&rft.date=1995&rft.isbn=0-520-02238-6&rft.aulast=Gruen&rft.aufirst=Erich&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3D8a4wDwAAQBAJ&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFMackie1992" class="citation journal cs1">Mackie, Nicola (1992). "<span class="cs1-kern-left"></span>'Popularis' ideology and popular politics at Rome in the first century BC". <i>Rheinisches Museum für Philologie</i>. <b>135</b> (1): <span class="nowrap">49–</span>73. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/0035-449X">0035-449X</a>. <a href="/wiki/JSTOR_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="JSTOR (identifier)">JSTOR</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/41233843">41233843</a>. <q>It is common knowledge nowadays that <i>populares</i> did not constitute a coherent political group or 'party' (even less so than their counterparts, <i>optimates</i>).</q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Rheinisches+Museum+f%C3%BCr+Philologie&rft.atitle=%27Popularis%27+ideology+and+popular+politics+at+Rome+in+the+first+century+BC&rft.volume=135&rft.issue=1&rft.pages=%3Cspan+class%3D%22nowrap%22%3E49-%3C%2Fspan%3E73&rft.date=1992&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jstor.org%2Fstable%2F41233843%23id-name%3DJSTOR&rft.issn=0035-449X&rft.aulast=Mackie&rft.aufirst=Nicola&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AUser%3AIfly6" class="Z3988"></span></li></ul> </span></li> </ol></div>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?useformat=desktop&type=1x1&usesul3=0" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&oldid=1276682385">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Ifly6&oldid=1276682385</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:User_en-GB" title="Category:User en-GB">User en-GB</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedians_willing_to_provide_third_opinions" title="Category:Wikipedians willing to provide third opinions">Wikipedians willing to provide third opinions</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_History_participants" title="Category:WikiProject History participants">WikiProject History participants</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedians_interested_in_history" title="Category:Wikipedians interested in history">Wikipedians interested in history</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Economics_participants" title="Category:WikiProject Economics participants">WikiProject Economics participants</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedians_interested_in_economics" title="Category:Wikipedians interested in economics">Wikipedians interested in economics</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 20 February 2025, at 06:20<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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class="mw-page-title-separator">:</span><span class="mw-page-title-main">Ifly6</span></div> </div> </div> <div class="vector-sticky-header-end" aria-hidden="true"> <div class="vector-sticky-header-icons"> <a href="#" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only" id="ca-talk-sticky-header" tabindex="-1" data-event-name="talk-sticky-header"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-speechBubbles mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-speechBubbles"></span> <span></span> </a> <a href="#" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only" id="ca-subject-sticky-header" tabindex="-1" data-event-name="subject-sticky-header"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-article mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-article"></span> <span></span> </a> <a href="#" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only" id="ca-history-sticky-header" tabindex="-1" data-event-name="history-sticky-header"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-history mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-wikimedia-history"></span> <span></span> </a> <a href="#" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only mw-watchlink" id="ca-watchstar-sticky-header" tabindex="-1" data-event-name="watch-sticky-header"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-star mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-wikimedia-star"></span> <span></span> </a> <a href="#" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only" id="ca-edit-sticky-header" tabindex="-1" data-event-name="wikitext-edit-sticky-header"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-wikiText mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-wikimedia-wikiText"></span> <span></span> </a> <a href="#" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only" id="ca-ve-edit-sticky-header" tabindex="-1" data-event-name="ve-edit-sticky-header"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-edit mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-wikimedia-edit"></span> <span></span> </a> <a href="#" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only" id="ca-viewsource-sticky-header" tabindex="-1" data-event-name="ve-edit-protected-sticky-header"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-editLock mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-wikimedia-editLock"></span> <span></span> </a> </div> <div class="vector-sticky-header-buttons"> <button class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet mw-interlanguage-selector" id="p-lang-btn-sticky-header" tabindex="-1" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-p-lang-btn-sticky-header"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-language mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-wikimedia-language"></span> <span>Add languages</span> </button> <a href="#" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--action-progressive" id="ca-addsection-sticky-header" tabindex="-1" data-event-name="addsection-sticky-header"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-speechBubbleAdd-progressive mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-speechBubbleAdd-progressive"></span> <span>Add topic</span> </a> </div> <div class="vector-sticky-header-icon-end"> <div class="vector-user-links"> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="vector-settings" id="p-dock-bottom"> <ul></ul> 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