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</div> </a> 39 comments <ul id="toc-Date_redirects_to_portals?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Issues_with_antiquated_guideline_for_WP:NBAND_that_essentially_cause_run_of_the_mill_non-notable_items_to_be_kept" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Issues_with_antiquated_guideline_for_WP:NBAND_that_essentially_cause_run_of_the_mill_non-notable_items_to_be_kept"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 2 Issues with antiquated guideline for WP:NBAND that essentially cause run of the mill non-notable items to be kept </div> </a> 36 comments <ul id="toc-Issues_with_antiquated_guideline_for_WP:NBAND_that_essentially_cause_run_of_the_mill_non-notable_items_to_be_kept-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Blind_1RR/3RR" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Blind_1RR/3RR"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 3 Blind 1RR/3RR </div> </a> 20 comments <ul id="toc-Blind_1RR/3RR-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Wiki-policy_about_Bibliography_List_in_an_article_about_a_famous_person." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Wiki-policy_about_Bibliography_List_in_an_article_about_a_famous_person."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 4 Wiki-policy about Bibliography List in an article about a famous person. </div> </a> 3 comments <ul id="toc-Wiki-policy_about_Bibliography_List_in_an_article_about_a_famous_person.-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Citing_a_paper_in_a_journal_versus_citing_the_journal_itself" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Citing_a_paper_in_a_journal_versus_citing_the_journal_itself"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 5 Citing a paper in a journal versus citing the journal itself </div> </a> 3 comments <ul id="toc-Citing_a_paper_in_a_journal_versus_citing_the_journal_itself-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Protect_sockpuppet_tags?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Protect_sockpuppet_tags?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 6 Protect sockpuppet tags? </div> </a> 2 comments <ul id="toc-Protect_sockpuppet_tags?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-What_determines_"global_consensus"?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#What_determines_"global_consensus"?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 7 What determines "global consensus"? </div> </a> 16 comments <ul id="toc-What_determines_"global_consensus"?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-How_do_I_contest_a_deleted_article?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#How_do_I_contest_a_deleted_article?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 8 How do I contest a deleted article? </div> </a> 6 comments <ul id="toc-How_do_I_contest_a_deleted_article?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Updating_NBAND:_Policy_proposal" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Updating_NBAND:_Policy_proposal"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 9 Updating NBAND: Policy proposal </div> </a> 1 comment <ul id="toc-Updating_NBAND:_Policy_proposal-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Should_WP:CRYSTAL_be_clarified?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Should_WP:CRYSTAL_be_clarified?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 10 Should WP:CRYSTAL be clarified? </div> </a> 3 comments <ul id="toc-Should_WP:CRYSTAL_be_clarified?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Request_for_comment_on_the_relationship_between_WP:CRITERIA_and_WP:TITLEFORMAT" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Request_for_comment_on_the_relationship_between_WP:CRITERIA_and_WP:TITLEFORMAT"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 11 Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Request for comment on the relationship between WP:CRITERIA and WP:TITLEFORMAT </div> </a> 1 comment <ul id="toc-Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Request_for_comment_on_the_relationship_between_WP:CRITERIA_and_WP:TITLEFORMAT-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-We_need_to_fix_the_admin_recall_process" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#We_need_to_fix_the_admin_recall_process"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 12 We need to fix the admin recall process </div> </a> 63 comments <ul id="toc-We_need_to_fix_the_admin_recall_process-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-the_REGIME_test" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#the_REGIME_test"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 13 the REGIME test </div> </a> 22 comments <ul id="toc-the_REGIME_test-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <nav aria-label="Contents" class="vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-titlebar-toc vector-button-flush-left" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Toggle the table of contents" > <label id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-label" for="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" > Toggle the table of contents </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> </div> </div> </div> </nav> <h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading mw-first-heading">Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)</h1> <div id="p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown mw-portlet mw-portlet-lang" > <input type="checkbox" id="p-lang-btn-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox mw-interlanguage-selector" aria-label="Go to an article in another language. Available in 46 languages" > <label id="p-lang-btn-label" for="p-lang-btn-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--action-progressive mw-portlet-lang-heading-46" aria-hidden="true" > 46 languages </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-ar mw-list-item"><a href="https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%D9%8A%D9%83%D9%8A%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%A7:%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86/%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%AA" title="ويكيبيديا:الميدان/سياسات – Arabic" lang="ar" hreflang="ar" data-title="ويكيبيديا:الميدان/سياسات" data-language-autonym="العربية" data-language-local-name="Arabic" class="interlanguage-link-target">العربية</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-an mw-list-item"><a href="https://an.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tabierna/Politicas" title="Wikipedia:Tabierna/Politicas – Aragonese" lang="an" hreflang="an" data-title="Wikipedia:Tabierna/Politicas" data-language-autonym="Aragonés" data-language-local-name="Aragonese" class="interlanguage-link-target">Aragonés</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-as mw-list-item"><a href="https://as.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A7%B1%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%95%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%AA%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%A1%E0%A6%BF%E0%A6%AF%E0%A6%BC%E0%A6%BE:%E0%A7%B0%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%87%E0%A6%9C%E0%A7%B0_%E0%A6%9A%27%E0%A7%B0%E0%A6%BE_(%E0%A6%A8%E0%A7%80%E0%A6%A4%E0%A6%BF)" title="ৱিকিপিডিয়া:ৰাইজৰ চ'ৰা (নীতি) – Assamese" lang="as" hreflang="as" data-title="ৱিকিপিডিয়া:ৰাইজৰ চ'ৰা (নীতি)" data-language-autonym="অসমীয়া" data-language-local-name="Assamese" class="interlanguage-link-target">অসমীয়া</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-azb badge-Q70893996 mw-list-item" title=""><a href="https://azb.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%DA%A9%D9%86%D8%AF_%D9%85%D8%A6%DB%8C%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C_(%D8%B3%DB%8C%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA)" title="ویکی‌پدیا:کند مئیدانی (سیاست) – South Azerbaijani" lang="azb" hreflang="azb" data-title="ویکی‌پدیا:کند مئیدانی (سیاست)" data-language-autonym="تۆرکجه" data-language-local-name="South Azerbaijani" class="interlanguage-link-target">تۆرکجه</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-cs mw-list-item"><a href="https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedie:Pod_l%C3%ADpou_(pravidla)" title="Wikipedie:Pod lípou (pravidla) – Czech" lang="cs" hreflang="cs" data-title="Wikipedie:Pod lípou (pravidla)" data-language-autonym="Čeština" data-language-local-name="Czech" class="interlanguage-link-target">Čeština</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-dty mw-list-item"><a href="https://dty.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A1%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE:%E0%A4%9A%E0%A5%8C%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8B_(%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF)" title="विकिपिडिया:चौपातो (नीति) – Doteli" lang="dty" hreflang="dty" data-title="विकिपिडिया:चौपातो (नीति)" data-language-autonym="डोटेली" data-language-local-name="Doteli" class="interlanguage-link-target">डोटेली</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-es mw-list-item"><a href="https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Caf%C3%A9/Archivo/Pol%C3%ADticas/Actual" title="Wikipedia:Café/Archivo/Políticas/Actual – Spanish" lang="es" hreflang="es" data-title="Wikipedia:Café/Archivo/Políticas/Actual" data-language-autonym="Español" data-language-local-name="Spanish" class="interlanguage-link-target">Español</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-eu badge-Q70893996 mw-list-item" title=""><a href="https://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Txokoa/Politikak" title="Wikipedia:Txokoa/Politikak – Basque" lang="eu" hreflang="eu" data-title="Wikipedia:Txokoa/Politikak" data-language-autonym="Euskara" data-language-local-name="Basque" class="interlanguage-link-target">Euskara</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-fa mw-list-item"><a href="https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%D8%A7%D8%AC%D8%B1%D8%A7%DB%8C%DB%8C" title="ویکی‌پدیا:قهوه‌خانه/اجرایی – Persian" lang="fa" hreflang="fa" data-title="ویکی‌پدیا:قهوه‌خانه/اجرایی" data-language-autonym="فارسی" data-language-local-name="Persian" class="interlanguage-link-target">فارسی</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-gl mw-list-item"><a href="https://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:A_Taberna_(pol%C3%ADticas)" title="Wikipedia:A Taberna (políticas) – Galician" lang="gl" hreflang="gl" data-title="Wikipedia:A Taberna (políticas)" data-language-autonym="Galego" data-language-local-name="Galician" class="interlanguage-link-target">Galego</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-glk mw-list-item"><a href="https://glk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%D9%82%D8%A3%D9%88%D9%87_%D8%AF%DB%8C%DA%A9%D8%A4%D9%86/%DA%A9%D8%A7%D8%B1%DA%A9%DB%8C%D8%A7%DA%AF%D8%B1%DB%8C" title="Wikipedia:قأوه دیکؤن/کارکیاگری – Gilaki" lang="glk" hreflang="glk" data-title="Wikipedia:قأوه دیکؤن/کارکیاگری" data-language-autonym="گیلکی" data-language-local-name="Gilaki" class="interlanguage-link-target">گیلکی</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-ko mw-list-item"><a href="https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%9C%84%ED%82%A4%EB%B0%B1%EA%B3%BC:%EC%82%AC%EB%9E%91%EB%B0%A9_(%EC%A0%95%EC%B1%85)" title="위키백과:사랑방 (정책) – Korean" lang="ko" hreflang="ko" data-title="위키백과:사랑방 (정책)" data-language-autonym="한국어" data-language-local-name="Korean" class="interlanguage-link-target">한국어</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-hy mw-list-item"><a href="https://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D5%8E%D5%AB%D6%84%D5%AB%D5%BA%D5%A5%D5%A4%D5%AB%D5%A1:%D4%BD%D5%B8%D6%80%D5%B0%D6%80%D5%A4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%B6/%D5%AF%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B8%D5%B6%D5%A1%D5%AF%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A3" title="Վիքիպեդիա:Խորհրդարան/կանոնակարգ – Armenian" lang="hy" hreflang="hy" data-title="Վիքիպեդիա:Խորհրդարան/կանոնակարգ" data-language-autonym="Հայերեն" data-language-local-name="Armenian" class="interlanguage-link-target">Հայերեն</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-ilo mw-list-item"><a href="https://ilo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dap-ayan/Annuroten" title="Wikipedia:Dap-ayan/Annuroten – Iloko" lang="ilo" hreflang="ilo" data-title="Wikipedia:Dap-ayan/Annuroten" data-language-autonym="Ilokano" data-language-local-name="Iloko" class="interlanguage-link-target">Ilokano</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-id mw-list-item"><a href="https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Warung_Kopi_(Kebijakan)" title="Wikipedia:Warung Kopi (Kebijakan) – Indonesian" lang="id" hreflang="id" data-title="Wikipedia:Warung Kopi (Kebijakan)" data-language-autonym="Bahasa Indonesia" data-language-local-name="Indonesian" class="interlanguage-link-target">Bahasa Indonesia</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-jv mw-list-item"><a href="https://jv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Angkringan_Niti" title="Wikipédia:Angkringan Niti – Javanese" lang="jv" hreflang="jv" data-title="Wikipédia:Angkringan Niti" data-language-autonym="Jawa" data-language-local-name="Javanese" class="interlanguage-link-target">Jawa</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-ks mw-list-item"><a href="https://ks.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%D9%90%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%96%D9%BE%DB%8C%D9%96%DA%88%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D8%A7%D8%A0%D8%B3%D9%8E%D9%85%D8%A8%D9%8E%D9%84%DB%8C_(%D8%AD%D9%90%DA%A9%D9%85%D9%8E%D8%AA%DB%81%D9%90_%D8%B9%D9%8E%D9%85%D9%84%DB%8C)" title="وِکیٖپیٖڈیا:اؠسَمبَلی (حِکمَتہِ عَملی) – Kashmiri" lang="ks" hreflang="ks" data-title="وِکیٖپیٖڈیا:اؠسَمبَلی (حِکمَتہِ عَملی)" data-language-autonym="कॉशुर / کٲشُر" data-language-local-name="Kashmiri" class="interlanguage-link-target">कॉशुर / کٲشُر</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-kk mw-list-item"><a href="https://kk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%8F:%D0%A4%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC/%D0%95%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%80" title="Уикипедия:Форум/Ережелер – Kazakh" lang="kk" hreflang="kk" data-title="Уикипедия:Форум/Ережелер" data-language-autonym="Қазақша" data-language-local-name="Kazakh" class="interlanguage-link-target">Қазақша</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-ml mw-list-item"><a href="https://ml.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B4%B5%E0%B4%BF%E0%B4%95%E0%B5%8D%E0%B4%95%E0%B4%BF%E0%B4%AA%E0%B5%80%E0%B4%A1%E0%B4%BF%E0%B4%AF:%E0%B4%AA%E0%B4%9E%E0%B5%8D%E0%B4%9A%E0%B4%BE%E0%B4%AF%E0%B4%A4%E0%B5%8D%E0%B4%A4%E0%B5%8D_(%E0%B4%A8%E0%B4%AF%E0%B4%B0%E0%B5%82%E0%B4%AA%E0%B5%80%E0%B4%95%E0%B4%B0%E0%B4%A3%E0%B4%82)" title="വിക്കിപീഡിയ:പഞ്ചായത്ത് (നയരൂപീകരണം) – Malayalam" lang="ml" hreflang="ml" data-title="വിക്കിപീഡിയ:പഞ്ചായത്ത് (നയരൂപീകരണം)" data-language-autonym="മലയാളം" data-language-local-name="Malayalam" class="interlanguage-link-target">മലയാളം</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-ms mw-list-item"><a href="https://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kedai_Kopi_(dasar)" title="Wikipedia:Kedai Kopi (dasar) – Malay" lang="ms" hreflang="ms" data-title="Wikipedia:Kedai Kopi (dasar)" data-language-autonym="Bahasa Melayu" data-language-local-name="Malay" class="interlanguage-link-target">Bahasa Melayu</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-ne mw-list-item"><a href="https://ne.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A1%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE:%E0%A4%9A%E0%A5%8C%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%80_(%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF)" title="विकिपिडिया:चौतारी (नीति) – Nepali" lang="ne" hreflang="ne" data-title="विकिपिडिया:चौतारी (नीति)" data-language-autonym="नेपाली" data-language-local-name="Nepali" class="interlanguage-link-target">नेपाली</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-ce mw-list-item"><a href="https://ce.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8:%D0%A4%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC/%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%8A%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%88" title="Википеди:Форум/Бакъонаш – Chechen" lang="ce" hreflang="ce" data-title="Википеди:Форум/Бакъонаш" data-language-autonym="Нохчийн" data-language-local-name="Chechen" class="interlanguage-link-target">Нохчийн</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-frr mw-list-item"><a href="https://frr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Politiik" title="Wikipedia:Politiik – Northern Frisian" lang="frr" hreflang="frr" data-title="Wikipedia:Politiik" data-language-autonym="Nordfriisk" data-language-local-name="Northern Frisian" class="interlanguage-link-target">Nordfriisk</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-uz mw-list-item"><a href="https://uz.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipediya:Forum/Qoidalar" title="Vikipediya:Forum/Qoidalar – Uzbek" lang="uz" hreflang="uz" data-title="Vikipediya:Forum/Qoidalar" data-language-autonym="Oʻzbekcha / ўзбекча" data-language-local-name="Uzbek" class="interlanguage-link-target">Oʻzbekcha / ўзбекча</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-ps mw-list-item"><a href="https://ps.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%D9%8A%DA%A9%D9%8A%D9%BE%DB%90%DA%89%D9%8A%D8%A7:%D8%A8%D9%86%DA%89%D8%A7%D8%B1%DA%81%D8%A7%DB%8C/%D8%AA%DA%AF%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%87" title="ويکيپېډيا:بنډارځای/تگلاره – Pashto" lang="ps" hreflang="ps" data-title="ويکيپېډيا:بنډارځای/تگلاره" data-language-autonym="پښتو" data-language-local-name="Pashto" class="interlanguage-link-target">پښتو</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-pl mw-list-item"><a href="https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kawiarenka/Zasady" title="Wikipedia:Kawiarenka/Zasady – Polish" lang="pl" hreflang="pl" data-title="Wikipedia:Kawiarenka/Zasady" data-language-autonym="Polski" data-language-local-name="Polish" class="interlanguage-link-target">Polski</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-ru mw-list-item"><a href="https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%8F:%D0%A4%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B0" title="Википедия:Форум/Правила – Russian" lang="ru" hreflang="ru" data-title="Википедия:Форум/Правила" data-language-autonym="Русский" data-language-local-name="Russian" class="interlanguage-link-target">Русский</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-sa mw-list-item"><a href="https://sa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%A1%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE:%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%AD%E0%A4%BE" title="विकिपीडिया:नीतिसभा – Sanskrit" lang="sa" hreflang="sa" data-title="विकिपीडिया:नीतिसभा" data-language-autonym="संस्कृतम्" data-language-local-name="Sanskrit" class="interlanguage-link-target">संस्कृतम्</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-stq mw-list-item"><a href="https://stq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Politik" title="Wikipedia:Politik – Saterland Frisian" lang="stq" hreflang="stq" data-title="Wikipedia:Politik" data-language-autonym="Seeltersk" data-language-local-name="Saterland Frisian" class="interlanguage-link-target">Seeltersk</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-si mw-list-item"><a href="https://si.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B7%80%E0%B7%92%E0%B6%9A%E0%B7%92%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%93%E0%B6%A9%E0%B7%92%E0%B6%BA%E0%B7%8F:%E0%B6%9A%E0%B7%9D%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%92_%E0%B6%9A%E0%B6%A9%E0%B7%9A_(%E0%B6%B4%E0%B7%8A%E2%80%8D%E0%B6%BB%E0%B6%AD%E0%B7%92%E0%B6%B4%E0%B6%AD%E0%B7%8A%E0%B6%AD%E0%B7%92)" title="විකිපීඩියා:කෝපි කඩේ (ප්‍රතිපත්ති) – Sinhala" lang="si" hreflang="si" data-title="විකිපීඩියා:කෝපි කඩේ (ප්‍රතිපත්ති)" data-language-autonym="සිංහල" data-language-local-name="Sinhala" class="interlanguage-link-target">සිංහල</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-sd mw-list-item"><a href="https://sd.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%DA%AA%D9%8A%D9%BE%D9%8A%DA%8A%D9%8A%D8%A7:%D8%B5%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AD_%D9%85%D8%B4%D9%88%D8%B1%D9%88/%D9%BE%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%8A%D8%B3%D9%8A" title="وڪيپيڊيا:صلاح مشورو/پاليسي – Sindhi" lang="sd" hreflang="sd" data-title="وڪيپيڊيا:صلاح مشورو/پاليسي" data-language-autonym="سنڌي" data-language-local-name="Sindhi" class="interlanguage-link-target">سنڌي</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-szl mw-list-item"><a href="https://szl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedyjo:Sztamtisz/Prawid%C5%82a" title="Wikipedyjo:Sztamtisz/Prawidła – Silesian" lang="szl" hreflang="szl" data-title="Wikipedyjo:Sztamtisz/Prawidła" data-language-autonym="Ślůnski" data-language-local-name="Silesian" class="interlanguage-link-target">Ślůnski</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-ckb mw-list-item"><a href="https://ckb.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%DB%8C%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D8%AF%DB%8C%D9%88%DB%95%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86_(%D8%B3%DB%8C%D8%A7%D8%B3%DB%95%D8%AA)" title="ویکیپیدیا:دیوەخان (سیاسەت) – Central Kurdish" lang="ckb" hreflang="ckb" data-title="ویکیپیدیا:دیوەخان (سیاسەت)" data-language-autonym="کوردی" data-language-local-name="Central Kurdish" class="interlanguage-link-target">کوردی</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-sr mw-list-item"><a href="https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0:%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%B3/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0" title="Википедија:Трг/Википолитика – Serbian" lang="sr" hreflang="sr" data-title="Википедија:Трг/Википолитика" data-language-autonym="Српски / srpski" data-language-local-name="Serbian" class="interlanguage-link-target">Српски / srpski</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-sh mw-list-item"><a href="https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Pijaca/Pravila_i_smjernice" title="Wikipedija:Pijaca/Pravila i smjernice – Serbo-Croatian" lang="sh" hreflang="sh" data-title="Wikipedija:Pijaca/Pravila i smjernice" data-language-autonym="Srpskohrvatski / српскохрватски" data-language-local-name="Serbo-Croatian" class="interlanguage-link-target">Srpskohrvatski / српскохрватски</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-su mw-list-item"><a href="https://su.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sawala_(kawijakan)" title="Wikipedia:Sawala (kawijakan) – Sundanese" lang="su" hreflang="su" data-title="Wikipedia:Sawala (kawijakan)" data-language-autonym="Sunda" data-language-local-name="Sundanese" class="interlanguage-link-target">Sunda</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-fi mw-list-item"><a href="https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kahvihuone_(k%C3%A4yt%C3%A4nn%C3%B6t)" title="Wikipedia:Kahvihuone (käytännöt) – Finnish" lang="fi" hreflang="fi" data-title="Wikipedia:Kahvihuone (käytännöt)" data-language-autonym="Suomi" data-language-local-name="Finnish" class="interlanguage-link-target">Suomi</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-ta mw-list-item"><a href="https://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%B5%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AA%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%AA%E0%AF%80%E0%AE%9F%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AE%BE:%E0%AE%86%E0%AE%B2%E0%AE%AE%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%A4%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%9F%E0%AE%BF_(%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8A%E0%AE%B3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%88)" title="விக்கிப்பீடியா:ஆலமரத்தடி (கொள்கை) – Tamil" lang="ta" hreflang="ta" data-title="விக்கிப்பீடியா:ஆலமரத்தடி (கொள்கை)" data-language-autonym="தமிழ்" data-language-local-name="Tamil" class="interlanguage-link-target">தமிழ்</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-tt mw-list-item"><a href="https://tt.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%8F:%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%B3%D1%8B%D0%B9%D0%B4%D3%99%D0%BB%D3%99%D1%80_%D0%B1%D3%99%D1%85%D3%99%D1%81%D0%B5" title="Википедия:Кагыйдәләр бәхәсе – Tatar" lang="tt" hreflang="tt" data-title="Википедия:Кагыйдәләр бәхәсе" data-language-autonym="Татарча / tatarça" data-language-local-name="Tatar" class="interlanguage-link-target">Татарча / tatarça</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-te mw-list-item"><a href="https://te.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B0%B5%E0%B0%BF%E0%B0%95%E0%B1%80%E0%B0%AA%E0%B1%80%E0%B0%A1%E0%B0%BF%E0%B0%AF%E0%B0%BE:%E0%B0%B0%E0%B0%9A%E0%B1%8D%E0%B0%9A%E0%B0%AC%E0%B0%82%E0%B0%A1_(%E0%B0%AA%E0%B0%BE%E0%B0%B2%E0%B0%B8%E0%B1%80%E0%B0%B2%E0%B1%81)" title="వికీపీడియా:రచ్చబండ (పాలసీలు) – Telugu" lang="te" hreflang="te" data-title="వికీపీడియా:రచ్చబండ (పాలసీలు)" data-language-autonym="తెలుగు" data-language-local-name="Telugu" class="interlanguage-link-target">తెలుగు</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-tg mw-list-item"><a href="https://tg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B0:%D2%9A%D0%B0%D2%B3%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0/%D0%94%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D2%B3%D0%BE" title="Википедиа:Қаҳвахона/Дастурҳо – Tajik" lang="tg" hreflang="tg" data-title="Википедиа:Қаҳвахона/Дастурҳо" data-language-autonym="Тоҷикӣ" data-language-local-name="Tajik" class="interlanguage-link-target">Тоҷикӣ</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-tr mw-list-item"><a href="https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipedi:K%C3%B6y_%C3%A7e%C5%9Fmesi_(politika)" title="Vikipedi:Köy çeşmesi (politika) – Turkish" lang="tr" hreflang="tr" data-title="Vikipedi:Köy çeşmesi (politika)" data-language-autonym="Türkçe" data-language-local-name="Turkish" class="interlanguage-link-target">Türkçe</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-uk mw-list-item"><a href="https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D1%8F:%D0%9A%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BF%D0%B0_(%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%96%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8)" title="Вікіпедія:Кнайпа (політики) – Ukrainian" lang="uk" hreflang="uk" data-title="Вікіпедія:Кнайпа (політики)" data-language-autonym="Українська" data-language-local-name="Ukrainian" class="interlanguage-link-target">Українська</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-ur mw-list-item"><a href="https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%BE%DB%8C%DA%88%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D8%AF%DB%8C%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%86_%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%85_(%D8%AD%DA%A9%D9%85%D8%AA_%D8%B9%D9%85%D9%84%DB%8C)" title="ویکیپیڈیا:دیوان عام (حکمت عملی) – Urdu" lang="ur" hreflang="ur" data-title="ویکیپیڈیا:دیوان عام (حکمت عملی)" data-language-autonym="اردو" data-language-local-name="Urdu" class="interlanguage-link-target">اردو</a></li><li class="interlanguage-link interwiki-zh-yue mw-list-item"><a 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searchaux" style="display:none">Page for discussing policies and guidelines</div><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1236090951">.mw-parser-output .hatnote{font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output div.hatnote{padding-left:1.6em;margin-bottom:0.5em}.mw-parser-output .hatnote i{font-style:normal}.mw-parser-output .hatnote+link+.hatnote{margin-top:-0.5em}@media print{body.ns-0 .mw-parser-output .hatnote{display:none!important}}</style><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">"WP:VPP" redirects here. For proposals, see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)">Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)</a>.</div> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1233915663">body.skin-vector-2022 .mw-parser-output .vph-skiptotoc{display:none}.mw-parser-output .vph-wrapper{margin:4px auto;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .vph-body{display:flex;gap:1em;margin-bottom:1em}.mw-parser-output .vph-image{flex:0 1 auto;padding-top:.5em}.mw-parser-output .vph-contents{flex:1 1}.mw-parser-output .vph-search{display:flex;flex-direction:row;flex-wrap:wrap;gap:1em;justify-content:center}@media(max-width:719px){.mw-parser-output .vph-image{display:none}}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .vph td a,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .vph td,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .vph div{background:transparent!important;color:var(--color-base)!important}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .vph td a,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .vph td,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .vph div{background:transparent!important;color:var(--color-base)!important}}</style> <div class="vph"> <table role="presentation" style="width: 100%; background-color: transparent; color: inherit; vertical-align: top; border: 0px; border-spacing: 0; margin:0;"><tbody><tr><td style="width: 1%; border-bottom: 2px solid #BFBAA3"> </td><td style="text-align: center; border-radius:4px 4px 0 0; padding:0.3em; border: 2px solid #BFBAA3; font-size: 110%; background-color: #F2ECCE; border-bottom-color: #F2ECCE; font-weight:bold; white-space: nowrap; width: 3%;"><a class="mw-selflink selflink">Policy</a></td><td style="width: 2%; border-bottom: 2px solid #BFBAA3"> </td><td style="text-align: center; border-radius:4px 4px 0 0; padding:0.3em; border: 2px solid #BFBAA3; font-size: 110%; background-color: #FFFBE6; white-space: nowrap; width: 3%;"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)">Technical</a></td><td style="width: 2%; border-bottom: 2px solid #BFBAA3"> </td><td style="text-align: center; border-radius:4px 4px 0 0; padding:0.3em; border: 2px solid #BFBAA3; font-size: 110%; background-color: #FFFBE6; white-space: nowrap; width: 3%;"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)">Proposals</a></td><td style="width: 2%; border-bottom: 2px solid #BFBAA3"> </td><td style="text-align: center; border-radius:4px 4px 0 0; padding:0.3em; border: 2px solid #BFBAA3; font-size: 110%; background-color: #FFFBE6; white-space: nowrap; width: 3%;"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)">Idea lab</a></td><td style="width: 2%; border-bottom: 2px solid #BFBAA3"> </td><td style="text-align: center; border-radius:4px 4px 0 0; padding:0.3em; border: 2px solid #BFBAA3; font-size: 110%; background-color: #FFFBE6; white-space: nowrap; width: 3%;"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(WMF)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF)">WMF</a></td><td style="width: 2%; border-bottom: 2px solid #BFBAA3"> </td><td style="text-align: center; border-radius:4px 4px 0 0; padding:0.3em; border: 2px solid #BFBAA3; font-size: 110%; background-color: #FFFBE6; white-space: nowrap; width: 3%;"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)">Miscellaneous</a></td><td style="width: 1%; border-bottom: 2px solid #BFBAA3"> </td></tr></tbody></table><div style="border: 2px solid #BFBAA3; border-top: none; background-color: #F2ECCE; color: black; padding: .5em 1em 1em 1em;"><div style="padding: 1ex"> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1129693374">.mw-parser-output .hlist dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul{margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt,.mw-parser-output .hlist li{margin:0;display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ul{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist .mw-empty-li{display:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dt::after{content:": "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li::after{content:" · ";font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li:last-child::after{content:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:first-child::before{content:" (";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:last-child::after{content:")";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol{counter-reset:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li{counter-increment:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li::before{content:" "counter(listitem)"\a0 "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li ol>li:first-child::before{content:" ("counter(listitem)"\a0 "}</style><div class="hlist" style="text-align:center;"><ul> <li class="nomobile vph-skiptotoc"><a href="#toc">Table of contents</a></li> <li><a href="#below_toc">First discussion</a></li> <li class="nomobile"><a href="#footer">End of page</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Special:NewSection/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)" title="Special:NewSection/Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)">New post</a></li> </ul> </div><div class="vph-body"> <div class="vph-contents"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1252059228">.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxplain{float:right;margin:0 0 0 1em;border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);background-color:var(--background-color-base,#fff);padding:0.3em 0.6em 0.2em 0.6em;text-align:center;font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxleft{float:left;margin:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutlist{display:inline-block;border-bottom:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);margin-bottom:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxplain ul{font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutanchordiv{position:relative;top:-3em}.mw-parser-output li .module-shortcutanchordiv{float:right}.mw-parser-output .mbox-imageright .module-shortcutboxplain{padding:0.4em 1em 0.4em 1em;line-height:1.3;margin:0}</style><div class="module-shortcutanchordiv"></div><div class="module-shortcutboxplain noprint" role="note"><div class="module-shortcutlist"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Shortcut" title="Wikipedia:Shortcut">Shortcuts</a></div><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1126788409">.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul{line-height:inherit;list-style:none;margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol li,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul li{margin-bottom:0}</style><div class="plainlist"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:VPP&redirect=no">WP:VPP</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:VPPOL&redirect=no">WP:VPPOL</a></li></ul></div></div> The policy section of the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump" title="Wikipedia:Village pump">village pump</a> is used to discuss already-proposed policies and guidelines and to discuss changes to existing <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines">policies and guidelines</a>. Change discussions often start on other pages and then move or get mentioned here for more visibility and broader participation. <ul><li>If you want to propose something new that is not a policy or guideline, use <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)">Village pump (proposals)</a>. For drafting with a more focused group, you can also start on the talk page for a WikiProject, Manual of Style, or other relevant project page.</li> <li>If you have a question about how to apply an existing policy or guideline, try one of the many <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Noticeboards" title="Wikipedia:Noticeboards">Wikipedia:Noticeboards</a>.</li> <li>If you want to ask what the policy is on something, try the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk" title="Wikipedia:Help desk">Help desk</a> or the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse" title="Wikipedia:Teahouse">Teahouse</a>.</li> <li>This is not the place to resolve disputes over how a policy should be implemented. Please see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution" title="Wikipedia:Dispute resolution">Wikipedia:Dispute resolution</a> for how to proceed in such cases.</li> <li>If you want to propose a new or amended speedy deletion criterion, use <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion">Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion</a>.</li></ul> Please see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Perennial_proposals" title="Wikipedia:Perennial proposals">this FAQ page</a> for a list of frequently rejected or ignored proposals. Discussions are automatically archived after remaining inactive for two weeks. <div style="text-align:center;"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_archive" title="Wikipedia:Village pump archive">« Archives</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_177" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 177">177</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_178" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 178">178</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_179" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 179">179</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_180" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 180">180</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_181" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 181">181</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_182" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 182">182</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_183" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 183">183</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_184" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 184">184</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_185" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 185">185</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_186" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 186">186</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_187" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 187">187</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_188" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 188">188</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_189" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 189">189</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_190" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 190">190</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_191" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 191">191</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_192" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 192">192</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_193" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 193">193</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_194" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 194">194</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_195" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 195">195</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_196" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 196">196</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_197" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 197">197</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="vph-search"> <div> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input 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title="Wikipedia:Centralized discussion">Centralized discussion</a></div> <div class="centralized-discussion-list"> <div class="centralized-discussion-local"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#RfC:_Enable_the_mergehistory_permission_for_importers" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)">Should mergehistory be enabled for importers?</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Request_for_comment_on_the_relationship_between_WP:CRITERIA_and_WP:TITLEFORMAT" title="Wikipedia talk:Article titles">Should WP:TITLEFORMAT take precedence over WP:CRITERIA?</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:2024_open_letter_to_the_Wikimedia_Foundation" title="Wikipedia:2024 open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation">Open letter regarding the Wikimedia Foundation's potential disclosure of editors' personal information</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#RfC:_Extended_confirmed_pending_changes_(PCECP)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)">Extended-confirmed pending changes and preemptive protection in contentious topics</a></li> <li><a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#Date_redirects_to_portals?">Are portals encyclopedic, and are they appropriate redirect targets?</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Administrator_recall#RfC:_Should_we_add_text_prescribing_just_signatures,_no_discussion?" title="Wikipedia talk:Administrator recall">Should recall petitions be limited to signatures only?</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Shorten_recall_petition_period" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Shorten recall petition period">Should the length of recall petitions be shortened?</a></li></ul> </div> <div class="centralized-discussion-ongoing">For a listing of ongoing discussions, see the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dashboard" title="Wikipedia:Dashboard">dashboard</a>. </div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1129693374"><div class="hlist plainlinks nourlexpansion centralized-discussion-navbar"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Centralized_discussion" title="Template:Centralized discussion">view</a></li> <li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Centralized_discussion&action=edit">edit</a></li> <li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Centralized_discussion&action=history">history</a></li> <li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Centralized_discussion&action=watch">watch</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion/Archive" title="Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Archive">archive</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Centralized_discussion" title="Wikipedia talk:Centralized discussion">talk</a></li> <li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=purge">purge</a></li></ul> </div> </div> </div> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/><div id="below_toc"></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Date_redirects_to_portals?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Date_redirects_to_portals?-20241030005500">Date redirects to portals?</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Date redirects to portals?">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=16_August_2006&redirect=no">16 August 2006</a> points to the current events portal as a result of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_October_4#16_August_2006" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 4">this discussion</a>. However, date redirects will continue to come up at RfD, some some wider community discussion and input is helpful on whether or not the current events portal is an appropriate target for mainspace redirects. See also: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_October_14#26,_November,_2006" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 14">this ongoing discussion</a> for some context. Related questions to consider: are portals "part of the encyclopedia"? Thanks, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cremastra" title="User talk:Cremastra">Cremastra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User:Cremastra" title="User:Cremastra">u</a> — <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cremastra" title="Special:Contributions/Cremastra">c</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Cremastra-20241030005500-Date_redirects_to_portals?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <ul><li>The second question is easy: Yes, portals are part of the encyclopaedia. As to the first question, portals are reader-facing content and so I see no reason why they wouldn't be appropriate targets for mainspace redirects, given that uncontroversially target mainspace redirects to reader-facing templates and categories when they are the best target. Whether the port is the best target for a given date will depend on the specific date but in general the portal should always be an option to consider. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241030013200-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I agree with this. The portal is definitely not always the best option and it has its limitations, but, as I wrote at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RDATE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RDATE">WP:RDATE</a> it should be considered and assessed along with mainspace articles. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cremastra" title="User talk:Cremastra">Cremastra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User:Cremastra" title="User:Cremastra">u</a> — <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cremastra" title="Special:Contributions/Cremastra">c</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Cremastra-20241030014400-Thryduulf-20241030013200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></li></ul> <dl><dd>Pinging: <a href="/wiki/User:Utopes" title="User:Utopes">Utopes</a>, who I've discussed this with.</dd> <dd><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r996643573">.mw-parser-output .block-indent{padding-left:3em;padding-right:0;overflow:hidden}</style><div class="block-indent" style="padding-left: 1.6em;">Notified: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:RFD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:RFD">WT:RFD</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:PORT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:PORT">WT:PORT</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:CURRENTEVENTS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:CURRENTEVENTS">WT:CURRENTEVENTS</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WPRED" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:WPRED">WT:WPRED</a>. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cremastra" title="User talk:Cremastra">Cremastra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User:Cremastra" title="User:Cremastra">u</a> — <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cremastra" title="Special:Contributions/Cremastra">c</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Cremastra-20241030014300-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:43, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</div></dd> <dd>If a namespace doesn't have the same standards as mainspace, then the reader shouldn't be redirected there while possibly not realizing they are now outside of mainspace. Yes, there is more content at <a href="/wiki/Portal:Current_events/August_2006" title="Portal:Current events/August 2006">Portal:Current events/August 2006</a> than at <a href="/wiki/2006#August" title="2006">2006#August</a>, but the reader is now facing a decades-old page with no quality control, where links to Breitbart are misleadingly labeled as (AP). <a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby">Chaotic Enby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chaotic_Enby" title="User talk:Chaotic Enby">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chaotic_Enby" title="Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241106005000-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Portal does have the same standards as mainspace. That a portal is not up to those standards is no different to an article being in bad shape - fix it. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241106005400-Chaotic_Enby-20241106005000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:54, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>So I can use the speedy A-criteria for portal pages? <a href="/wiki/User:Fram" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Fram">Fram</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fram" title="User talk:Fram">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Fram-20241107174000-Thryduulf-20241106005400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>No, because they are not articles. Two things can be held to the same standard without being the same thing. Criterion P1 previously allowed that (indirectly) but it was <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_85#RfC:_Should_P1_and_P2_be_repealed_as_CSDs?" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 85">repealed in 2023</a> due to lack of use. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241107194200-Fram-20241107174000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Then they aren't held to the same standards... More in general, no, they obviously aren't held to the same standards, e.g. a portal page doesn't have to be a notable topic but may be purely decorative or (as is the case with the date pages) be a list of mainly non-notable things, failing <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTNEWS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTNEWS">WP:NOTNEWS</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LISTN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LISTN">WP:LISTN</a>. That some standards are the same (BLP, copyvio, ...) can also be said for e.g. user talk pages, and we don't redirect to these pages either. <a href="/wiki/User:Fram" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Fram">Fram</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fram" title="User talk:Fram">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Fram-20241107202400-Thryduulf-20241107194200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>We don't redirect to user talk pages because they aren't reader-facing, so that's irrelevant. We don't hold reader-facing templates and categories to article content policies (because they aren't articles) but we do redirect to them. Don't conflate quality standards with inclusion policies, they are not the same thing. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241107211500-Fram-20241107202400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><dl><dd>I wasn´t aware that the standards we were talking about were solely quality standards, whatever these may be, and not content standards, sourcing standards, ... I´m sadly not amazed that you consider these irrelevant when deciding what to present to our readers. <a href="/wiki/User:Fram" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Fram">Fram</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fram" title="User talk:Fram">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Fram-20241107213700-Thryduulf-20241107211500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>In theory, I think portals should be held to the same CSD criteria as articles. But of course the A criteria actually only apply to articles. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cremastra" title="User talk:Cremastra">Cremastra</a> (<a href="/wiki/User:Cremastra" title="User:Cremastra">u</a> — <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cremastra" title="Special:Contributions/Cremastra">c</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Cremastra-20241107220800-Fram-20241107174000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li>There's a lot of random junk in portalspace, but yes, it is part of the encyclopedia. Just like categories and templates, portals are reader-facing content. <a href="/wiki/User:CFA" title="User:CFA">C F A</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:CFA" title="User talk:CFA">💬</a></li> <li>I didn't really have super strong opinions on portals until seeing this one link to Breitbart, twice, in a misleading way. This is not okay. I agree with Fram that clearly Portals are not being held up to the same standards as regular articles and it might be a bad idea to redirect readers to them. <a href="/wiki/User:Toadspike" title="User:Toadspike">Toadspike</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Toadspike" title="User talk:Toadspike">[Talk]</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Toadspike-20241107230000-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li>I saw this on CENT, and I am confused by the question. <a href="/wiki/Portal:Current_events/2006_August_16" title="Portal:Current events/2006 August 16">Portal:Current events/2006 August 16</a> is very different from something like <a href="/wiki/Portal:Belgium" title="Portal:Belgium">Portal:Belgium</a>, and it doesn't make sense to pretend they are the same to establish policy. And what does "part of the encyclopedia" even mean? "Interpreting a confusing phrase" is a terrible way to decide redirect targets. For the specific question of "Should dates redirect to the Current Events portal rather than to a page like <a href="/wiki/August_2006" class="mw-redirect" title="August 2006">August 2006</a> ... I don't know. I don't see a compelling reason why they can't, nor a compelling reason why they should. <a href="/wiki/User:Walsh90210" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Walsh90210">Walsh90210</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Walsh90210" title="User talk:Walsh90210">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Walsh90210-20241108154500-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Hey, that's a nice Portal! Thank you for restoring my faith in portals. Clicking on "Random Portal" took me to <a href="/wiki/Portal:Trees" title="Portal:Trees">Portal:Trees</a>, which is also pretty nice. My opinion is now that yes, portals can be good, but it seems to me that we currently have no Ps and Gs to apply to their content or measure their quality, no consensus about how to direct readers to them, and a very checkered and controversial history of deletion. I really dunno what to do about them. <a href="/wiki/User:Toadspike" title="User:Toadspike">Toadspike</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Toadspike" title="User talk:Toadspike">[Talk]</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Toadspike-20241108164900-Walsh90210-20241108154500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Of course that's a nice portal, look who created it :-D <a href="/wiki/User:Fram" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Fram">Fram</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fram" title="User talk:Fram">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Fram-20241108175100-Toadspike-20241108164900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li>No, we should not redirect dates to the current events portal subpages. It's a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:R#DELETE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:R">cross-namespace redirect</a> that takes readers from somewhere they expect to be (an encyclopedia article on the topic "16 August 2006") to somewhere they don't expect to be (a navigational aid(?) that highlights some things that happened that day). I'm not 100% sure what the current events portal subpages are for, but they're not meant to stand in as pseudo-articles in places we lack real articles. <a href="/wiki/User:Ajpolino" title="User:Ajpolino">Ajpolino</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ajpolino" title="User talk:Ajpolino">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Ajpolino-20241108220400-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Cross-namespace redirects in and of themselves are not a problem. They only cause issues when they take someone expecting reader-facing content to "backroom" content (e.g. project space). Both article and portals are reader-facing content, so this is not an issue. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241108221700-Ajpolino-20241108220400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Is there another case where we link a reader from an article to a non-article without clearly denoting it? E.g. I have no problem with the {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Portal" title="Template:Portal">Portal</a>}} template folks often use in the See also section. <a href="/wiki/User:Ajpolino" title="User:Ajpolino">Ajpolino</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ajpolino" title="User talk:Ajpolino">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Ajpolino-20241109011200-Thryduulf-20241108221700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>There are lots of redirects to templates and categories. Many navigation templates link to other navigation templates. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241109081200-Ajpolino-20241109011200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Any examples of these lots of mainspace pages which are redirects to templates? 08:42, 9 November 2024 (UTC) <a href="/wiki/User:Fram" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Fram">Fram</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fram" title="User talk:Fram">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Fram-20241109084200-Thryduulf-20241109081200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:42, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/List_of_elections_in_Texas" class="mw-redirect" title="List of elections in Texas">List of elections in Texas</a>, <a href="/wiki/List_of_Kentucky_county_seats" class="mw-redirect" title="List of Kentucky county seats">List of Kentucky county seats</a>, <a href="/wiki/Cite_web" title="Cite web">Cite web</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241110001300-Fram-20241109084200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:13, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Thanks. Okay, Citeweb is a bad example, not something readers look for but something editors look for. The other 2 are among the 6 existing reader facing redirects to templates (from <a href="/wiki/Category:Redirects_to_template_namespace" title="Category:Redirects to template namespace">Category:Redirects to template namespace</a>, the only ones which are from mainspace and not editor-related like the cite templates). Not quite the "lots" you seemed to be suggesting throughout this discussion, but extremely rare outliers which should probably all be RfD'ed. <a href="/wiki/User:Fram" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Fram">Fram</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fram" title="User talk:Fram">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Fram-20241110114200-Thryduulf-20241110001300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Now only 2 remaining, converted the other 4 in articles or other redirects. <a href="/wiki/User:Fram" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Fram">Fram</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fram" title="User talk:Fram">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Fram-20241110115200-Thryduulf-20241110001300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:52, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li>Yes, the current events portals are valid redirect targets for dates and preferred in this case of the best article redirect for a specific date being the month section of an article on an entire year. I agree with Fram that portals are not held to the same standards as articles, but I disagree with Ajpolino's stance that a cross-namespace redirect is so disruptive that they are prohibited in all cases, given that <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Portal" title="Wikipedia:Portal">WP:Portal</a> says "portals are meant primarily for readers." <a href="/wiki/User:ViridianPenguin" title="User:ViridianPenguin">ViridianPenguin 🐧</a> ( <a href="/wiki/User_talk:ViridianPenguin" title="User talk:ViridianPenguin">💬</a> ) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-ViridianPenguin-20241108234600-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li>Commenting strictly on the "are portals part of the encyclopedia" question, yes it is. Unfortunately there was one extremely loud, disruptive voice who kept making portals less useful and suffocating any discussions that would make it more beneficial to readers. Plenty of willing portal contributors, including myself, left this space and readers are still reaping the seeds of what that disruptive user planted even after they have been ArbCom banned over a year ago. So it may given some people an illusion that portals aren't doing much towards the encyclopedic goal, because the current status is handicapped by its history. I'm reserving my views on the redirect part of the discussion. <a href="/wiki/User:OhanaUnited" title="User:OhanaUnited">OhanaUnited</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:OhanaUnited" title="User talk:OhanaUnited">Talk page</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-OhanaUnited-20241109072900-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:29, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li>Not, portals are not held to the standards of articles, and if something for whatever reason shouldn't be or can't be an enwiki article, this shouldn't be circumvented by having it in portalspace. Either these date pages are acceptable, and then they should be in mainspace. Or they are not what we want as articles, and then we shouldn't present them to our readers anyway. <a href="/wiki/User:Fram" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Fram">Fram</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fram" title="User talk:Fram">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Fram-20241110114200-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>These current events pages differ from articles in many respects, but the referencing standards are similar. Whether they happen to be prefixed by "Portal:" or not is not reflective of their quality. <a href="/wiki/User:J947" title="User:J947">J</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:J947" title="User talk:J947">947</a> ‡ <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/J947" title="Special:Contributions/J947">edits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-J947-20241111231800-Fram-20241110114200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></li> <li>Yes, because the purpose of <a href="/wiki/Portal:Current_events/2022_August_21" title="Portal:Current events/2022 August 21">Portal:Current events/2022 August 21</a> is to provide encyclopaedic information on <a href="/w/index.php?title=21_August_2022&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="21 August 2022 (page does not exist)">21 August 2022</a> and this purpose has been by-and-large successful. <a href="/wiki/User:J947" title="User:J947">J</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:J947" title="User talk:J947">947</a> ‡ <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/J947" title="Special:Contributions/J947">edits</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-J947-20241111231800-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li>The current events portal example listed seems encyclopedic enough, in that apart from some formatting differences it might as well be a list article, but I've seen other portals that have editor-facing content that is more dubiously appropriate for mainspace. Consider, for example, <a href="/wiki/Portal:Schools#Wikiprojects" title="Portal:Schools">Portal:Schools § Wikiprojects</a> (capitalization [<a href="/wiki/Sic" title="Sic">sic</a>]) and <a href="/wiki/Portal:Schools#Things_you_can_do" title="Portal:Schools">Portal:Schools § Things you can do</a>, and the similar modules at many other portals. <a href="/wiki/User:Sdkb" title="User:Sdkb">Sdkb</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sdkb" title="User talk:Sdkb">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Sdkb-20241113182700-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li>Yes per J947, especially given that the current event portals function like an encyclopedic list for the given date. --<a href="/wiki/User:Tavix" title="User:Tavix"> Tavix</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tavix" title="User talk:Tavix">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Tavix-20241114164600-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li>Yes, speaking as a recognized portalista, portals have not yet been excised from the pedia. In this case, User:J947 makes the essential point. I'm not convinced that even incomplete, out-of-date portals are any less encyclopedic than the 2 million or so Wikipedia articles nobody bothered to edit last year. <a href="/wiki/User:BusterD" title="User:BusterD">BusterD</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BusterD" title="User talk:BusterD">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-BusterD-20241119145300-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li>Portals are not part of the encylopedia as we understand encyclopedias: sources of information. They serve as navigation within an encylopedia. We would not see a Portal as the final delivery of information, any more than we would see a contents page, index, blurb, or advert as the final information page. These are all ancillary. People mostly land on a Wikipedia article page without a Portal. I have used Wikipedia for nearly twenty years without ever needing a Portal to direct me to where I want to go, and I would assume this is true for the majority of people. Redirects are designed as a signpost, and we frown upon a signpost simply pointing to another signpost. People would generally only arrive at a Portal if directed there from a link that should more helpfully point to the appropriate article. The Belgium Portal is mentioned above as a good Portal. If we go to the Belgium article and scroll down, there is a link to the Belgium Portal. But the Portal mainly provides us with a digest of the Belgium article, including a link back to the Belgium article, which itself contains more links to Belgium related articles than the Belgium Portal. Huh? Seriously? Why are we taking readers away from a sublime source, rich with information and links, to an inferior source? There is nothing on the Belgium Portal that is not available on the Belgium article page - including links to news. But there is much on the Belgian article page that is not on the Belgium Portal page. My suggestion is that ALL links to portals such as the Belgium Portal should instead go to the main article page. Why are we redirecting people to a redirect page when we can send them to the main article on the topic? Portals are a waste of our time and resources, and are a misdirect for readers. <a href="/wiki/User:SilkTork" title="User:SilkTork">SilkTork</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SilkTork" title="User talk:SilkTork">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-SilkTork-20241123223300-Cremastra-20241030005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:33, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:SilkTork" title="User:SilkTork">SilkTork</a> Are you also specifically opposed to redirecting to the current events portal, which is more "encyclopedic" than "navigational"? <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cremastra" title="User talk:Cremastra">Cremastra</a> ‹ <a href="/wiki/User:Cremastra" title="User:Cremastra">u</a> — <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cremastra" title="Special:Contributions/Cremastra">c</a> › <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Cremastra-20241123224400-SilkTork-20241123223300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:44, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I'm not exactly comfortable with <a href="/wiki/2006#August" title="2006">2006#August</a> as a target as that itself is a signpost, but I see little value in us having two such signposts - that simply duplicates and confuses things. Either we have <a href="/wiki/2006#August" title="2006">2006#August</a> or we have <a href="/wiki/Portal:Current_events/2006_August_16" title="Portal:Current events/2006 August 16">Portal:Current events/2006 August 16</a>, and I'd much prefer we simply get rid of Portals, so I would obviously opt for <a href="/wiki/2006#August" title="2006">2006#August</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:SilkTork" title="User:SilkTork">SilkTork</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SilkTork" title="User talk:SilkTork">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-SilkTork-20241123230200-Cremastra-20241123224400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>The CE portal has more information for the reader, so I prefer it (see my arguments at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RDATE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RDATE">WP:RDATE</a>.) <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cremastra" title="User talk:Cremastra">Cremastra</a> ‹ <a href="/wiki/User:Cremastra" title="User:Cremastra">u</a> — <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cremastra" title="Special:Contributions/Cremastra">c</a> › <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Cremastra-20241123231200-SilkTork-20241123230200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:12, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:SilkTork" title="User:SilkTork">SilkTork</a> Your argument breaks down as soon as you realise that disambiguation pages and set indexes exist and that redirects to those pages are extremely common and uncontroversial. We also redirect people to outlines, broad concept articles and overviews. What is the "main article page" for a date? In all but a few exceptional cases there isn't a single article but multiple, and so just as if they had searched <a href="/wiki/Mercury" class="mw-disambig" title="Mercury">Mercury</a>, <a href="/wiki/Bitter_ash" title="Bitter ash">Bitter ash</a> or <a href="/wiki/Stuffed_flatbread" title="Stuffed flatbread">Stuffed flatbread</a> we present them with a menu of content that is relevant to their search term and let them choose what it is they want to read about. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241123224600-SilkTork-20241123223300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>See my answer above. I don't see the point in duplicating signposts. We have <a href="/wiki/Belgium" title="Belgium">Belgium</a>, so we don't need <a href="/wiki/Portal:Belgium" title="Portal:Belgium">Portal:Belgium</a>; and we have <a href="/wiki/2006#August" title="2006">2006#August</a> so we don't need <a href="/wiki/Portal:Current_events/2006_August_16" title="Portal:Current events/2006 August 16">Portal:Current events/2006 August 16</a>. Signposts are not part of the encyclopedia, but they are navigational aids which lead us to further information. However, we have built into every article multiple signposts to further information. We don't need to have duplicate signposts outside of mainspace to which people are directed away from mainspace to consult. It is a waste of our time and resources, and a misdirection for readers. Internal links are an elegant way of signposting to further information. Navigational templates are a little clunky, but are useful. Portals take readers away from the encyclopedia, and are a pointless timesink for both editors and readers. <a href="/wiki/User:SilkTork" title="User:SilkTork">SilkTork</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SilkTork" title="User talk:SilkTork">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-SilkTork-20241123230200-Thryduulf-20241123224600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Portals are just as much part of the encyclopaedia as set indexes and navigational templates. <a href="/wiki/Portal:Belgium" title="Portal:Belgium">Portal:Belgium</a> and <a href="/wiki/Belgium" title="Belgium">Belgium</a> fulfil very different roles in the encyclopaedia, neither is a duplicate of the other. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241123231000-SilkTork-20241123230200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:10, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Issues_with_antiquated_guideline_for_WP:NBAND_that_essentially_cause_run_of_the_mill_non-notable_items_to_be_kept" data-mw-thread-id="h-Issues_with_antiquated_guideline_for_WP:NBAND_that_essentially_cause_run_of_the-20241030061700">Issues with antiquated guideline for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NBAND" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NBAND">WP:NBAND</a> that essentially cause run of the mill non-notable items to be kept</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Issues with antiquated guideline for WP:NBAND that essentially cause run of the mill non-notable items to be kept">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> Specifically, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NBAND" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NBAND">WP:NBAND</a> #5 and #6, which read: <pre>5.) Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable). </pre> <pre>6.) Is an ensemble that contains two or more independently notable musicians, or is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles. This should be adapted appropriately for musical genre; for example, having performed two lead roles at major opera houses. Note that this criterion needs to be interpreted with caution, as there have been instances where this criterion was cited in a circular manner to create a self-fulfilling notability loop (e.g., musicians who were "notable" only for having been in two bands, of which one or both were "notable" only because those musicians had been in them.) </pre> These appear to have been put together by a very small number of editors over a decade ago and hasn't seen much change since then and I feel it's much more lenient than just about anything else. This SNG defines a "label" that has been around for over "a few years" that has a roster of performers as "important". So, any group of people who have released two albums through ANY verifiable label that has exited for more than a few year can end up being kept and this isn't exactly in line with GNG. I believe a discussion needs to be held in order to bring it to GNG expectations of now. <a href="/wiki/User:Graywalls" title="User:Graywalls">Graywalls</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Graywalls" title="User talk:Graywalls">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Graywalls-20241030061700-Issues_with_antiquated_guideline_for_WP:NBAND_that_essentially_cause_run_of_the" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:17, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Especially given how broadly the various criteria have been "interpreted" in deletion discussions, the best way to go about it is just to deprecate the whole thing. Rely on the GNG for band notability, and if that results in a heap of articles on ephemeral outfits, garage bands and local acts vanishing, huzzah. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ravenswing" title="User talk:Ravenswing"> Ravenswing </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Ravenswing-20241030090700-Graywalls-20241030061700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:07, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>The SNG isn't workable in the age of digital distribution. It's very easy to create "an independent label with a history of more than a few years". If someone wants to suggest a way to reform the SNG, I am open to solutions. But deprecation is a simple alternative if we can't. The GNG is always a good standard because it guarantees we have quality sources to write an article. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Shooterwalker&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Shooterwalker (page does not exist)">Shooterwalker</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shooterwalker" title="User talk:Shooterwalker">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Shooterwalker-20241030142200-Graywalls-20241030061700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:22, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>I was active in AfD discussions when NBAND was pretty new, and it was useful for dealing with a flood of articles about garage bands and such, but I think our standards in general have tightened up since then, and I agree it is time to review it. There is the possibility, however, that revising NBAND may require as much discussion as revising NSPORT did. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Donald_Albury" title="User talk:Donald Albury">Donald Albury</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Donald_Albury-20241030174900-Graywalls-20241030061700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>This sounds reasonable. I guess we need some concrete re-write suggestions to base an rfc on. <a href="/wiki/User:Gr%C3%A5bergs_Gr%C3%A5a_S%C3%A5ng" title="User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång">Gråbergs Gråa Sång</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gr%C3%A5bergs_Gr%C3%A5a_S%C3%A5ng" title="User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Gråbergs_Gråa_Sång-20241030181700-Donald_Albury-20241030174900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:17, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>It sounds like you're assuming that NBAND is meant to be a substitute for the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:General_notability_guideline" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:General notability guideline">Wikipedia:General notability guideline</a>. That's true for some <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Subject-specific_notability_guidelines" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Subject-specific notability guidelines">WP:Subject-specific notability guidelines</a> but not for all of them.</dd> <dd>I guess the underlying question is: Is there actual harm in having a permastub about a band that proves to be borderline in GNG terms? Consider this:</dd> <dd><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237805129">.mw-parser-output .talkquote{color:var(--color-base,#202122);background-color:#eaf8f4;border-left:3px solid #008560;padding:0 .8em;margin:0}.mw-parser-output .talkquote-by,.mw-parser-output .talkquote-source{margin-left:1.6em}.mw-parser-output .skin-vector-2022 .talkquote>:last-child{padding-bottom:0}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}</style><blockquote class="talkquote">"Alice and Bob are a musical duo in the <a href="/wiki/Science_fiction" title="Science fiction">science fiction</a> genre.<style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1255586131">.mw-parser-output .fakelinks{color:var(--color-progressive,#0645ad);cursor:default}.mw-parser-output .fakelinks:hover{color:var(--color-progressive--hover,#0645ad)}</style>[1] They released their first album, <a href="/wiki/Foo" class="mw-redirect" title="Foo">Foo</a>, in 2019 and their second, <a href="/w/index.php?title=Bar_(album)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Bar (album) (page does not exist)">Bar</a>, in 2020. Both albums were released by <a href="/wiki/Record_Label" class="mw-redirect" title="Record Label">Record Label</a>.<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1255586131">[2] They are primarily known for singing during a <a href="/wiki/Minor_key" class="mw-redirect" title="Minor key">minor</a> event.<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1255586131">[3]"</blockquote></dd> <dd>I'm asking this because I think that the nature of sources has changed, particularly for pop culture, since NBAND and the GNG were written. We now have subjects that get "attention from the world at large", but which aren't the Right™ kind of sources and, while these Wrong™ sources definitely provide "attention", some of that attention might not provide biographical information (which means we're looking at a short article).</dd> <dd>For example, instead of getting attention in the arts section of a daily newspaper, they're getting attention from <a href="/wiki/Anthony_Fantano" title="Anthony Fantano">Anthony Fantano</a> on YouTube. He's an important music critic,<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/30/arts/music/anthony-fantano-the-needle-drop.html">[1]</a> but I suspect that our knee-jerk reaction is "Pffft, just some YouTuber, totally unreliable". Consequently, we might rate a band that we theoretically intend to include ("attention from the world at large") as not meeting the GNG (because the whole field relies on the Wrong™ style of sources). <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-WhatamIdoing-20241030190200-Graywalls-20241030061700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:02, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Keep in mind that like most other notability guidelines, it is a presumed assumption that a topic is notable if it meets these criteria. If you do an exhaustive Before and demonstrate there is no significant coverage beyond the sourcing to satisfy there criteria, the article should still be deleted. None of the SNGs are geared towards preventing this type of challenge. — <a href="/wiki/User:Masem" title="User:Masem">Masem</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Masem" title="User talk:Masem">t</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Masem-20241030193000-Graywalls-20241030061700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>If we had to yield to presumptive notability about some random band because it released two albums with Backyard Trampoline Recordings established few years ago and had to do exhaustive search to disprove notability, we're getting setup for a situation where removal is 10x more challenging than article creation. So.. I see a great value in scrapping NBAND 5, and 6. <a href="/wiki/User:Graywalls" title="User:Graywalls">Graywalls</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Graywalls" title="User talk:Graywalls">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Graywalls-20241031004700-Masem-20241030193000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Welcome to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SNG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SNG">WP:SNGs</a>. As Masem said, they're supposed to be a rough idea of gauging notability before exhaustively searching for sources. But pretty much all of them have ended up being used as means to keep articles about trivial or run-of-the-mill subjects. <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thebiguglyalien-20241030193700-Graywalls-20241030061700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> Graywalls listed two criteria but the main discussion seems to be about the 1st (#5). I agree with Graywalls on that. With the evolution of the industry, the label criteria is no longer a useful indicator as it once was and IMO #5 should be removed or modified. Sincerely, North8000 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:North8000#top" title="User talk:North8000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-North8000-20241030191300-Issues_with_antiquated_guideline_for_WP:NBAND_that_essentially_cause_run_of_the" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I agree, both those criteria should be scrapped. <a href="/wiki/User:JoelleJay" title="User:JoelleJay">JoelleJay</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JoelleJay" title="User talk:JoelleJay">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-JoelleJay-20241030222100-North8000-20241030191300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>I've noticed that as well. I think #6 has some value still, while #5 is like saying an author who has published two or more books by a major publishing house is presumed notable. Way too low a bar without requiring some level of reception of those albums/books. (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NAUTHOR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NAUTHOR">WP:NAUTHOR</a> doesn't have that 2-book criteria, of course, just seems like parallel benchmarks.) <a href="/wiki/User:Schazjmd" title="User:Schazjmd">Schazjmd</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Schazjmd" title="User talk:Schazjmd">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Schazjmd-20241031132500-North8000-20241030191300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:25, 31 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>On the other hand, in this case, I suspect that an artist that "has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels" will in 99% of cases have enough coverage to clear the GNG bar. I'd like to see an example of one that doesn't. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Black_Kite" title="User talk:Black Kite">Black Kite (talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Black_Kite-20241031132900-Schazjmd-20241031132500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>The definition of important as said in #5 is "history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable". This would mean that a garage band is notable, because they've released two CD-R albums on Rotten Peach Recordings which has been around for 3 1/2 years, has a roster of performers and some of whom have a Wikipedia page on them. Often time "notable" is determined by the presence of a stand alone Wikipedia page. When you look at the page, many band member pages are hopelessly non-notable, but removal takes an AfD. So a simple deletion can become a time consuming multi-step AfD. <a href="/wiki/User:Graywalls" title="User:Graywalls">Graywalls</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Graywalls" title="User talk:Graywalls">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Graywalls-20241031191800-Black_Kite-20241031132900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:18, 31 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Here's a current AfD I am participating in where NBAND#5 was invoked to justify a keep. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Sons_of_Azrael_(3rd_nomination)" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sons of Azrael (3rd nomination)">Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Sons_of_Azrael_(3rd_nomination)</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Graywalls" title="User:Graywalls">Graywalls</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Graywalls" title="User talk:Graywalls">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Graywalls-20241031192400-Black_Kite-20241031132900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Not opining on that band's notability, but Metal Blade is a famous independent label that has existed for 42 years, has released material by very high-profile bands, and is distributed by Sony - it's not some one-person imprint operating out of their garage. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Black_Kite" title="User talk:Black Kite">Black Kite (talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Black_Kite-20241101112800-Graywalls-20241031192400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I concur regarding that particular example.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Metal Blade is a big label, and not surprisingly notability was quickly demonstrated in the deletion discussion through citing reliable source coverage. And that's how #5 should work - artist is on a significant label, which suggests coverage exists. And then coverage is found.--<a href="/wiki/User:3family6" title="User:3family6">3family6</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:3family6" title="User talk:3family6">Talk to me</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/3family6" title="Special:Contributions/3family6">See what I have done</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-3family6-20241116120800-Black_Kite-20241101112800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>It's complicated - on the one hand, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.cjr.org/analysis/music-journalism-access.php">music publications are increasingly prioritizing their coverage toward Taylor Swift-level celebrities</a>, so I am almost certain there are artists on major labels that might be examples -- major as in the Big 3. This is especially so for genres like country that publications don't cover as much - there are some big names on the roster of <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.warnermusicnashville.com/artist">Warner Music Nashville</a> and also some not-so-big names.</dd> <dd>The elephant in the room here is that entertainment journalism is in crisis mode right now, publications are operating on skeleton crews, and the range of coverage has narrowed dramatically. I encourage everyone taking part in this discussion to read the article I linked, there are a lot of assumptions being made about the way things work that aren't true. <a href="/wiki/User:Gnomingstuff" title="User:Gnomingstuff">Gnomingstuff</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gnomingstuff" title="User talk:Gnomingstuff">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Gnomingstuff-20241119203000-Black_Kite-20241031132900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:30, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li>One suggestion I would add is to make these two criteria apply only to bands before a specific year, that year being where physical releases still dominated over digital sales. I don't know the exact year but I am thinking it's like around 2000 to 2010. There may still be older groups during the time of physical releases that don't yet have articles that would fall into one of these criteria. <a href="/wiki/User:Masem" title="User:Masem">Masem</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Masem" title="User talk:Masem">t</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Masem-20241031200200-North8000-20241030191300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:02, 31 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li>As someone who's had <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DSMUSIC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DSMUSIC">WP:DSMUSIC</a> watchlisted for most of their editing history, and who tends towards deletion at that, I actually don't see much of a problem with these criterions. It certainly seems true that the majority of musicians who are signed to a label or a member of multiple bands with two other musicians who meet <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GNG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GNG">WP:GNG</a> themselves meet GNG. I do think it is sometimes justified to accept less-than-GNG sourcing in articles where a SNG is met (see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/John_LeCompt" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John LeCompt">Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John LeCompt</a> for this as it applies to c6 specifically) and more importantly, NMUSIC contains language that allows deleting articles even where it is technically met (see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Rouzbeh_Rafie" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rouzbeh Rafie">Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rouzbeh Rafie</a> for an extended argument about that. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mach61" title="User talk:Mach61">Mach61</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Mach61-20241031232900-North8000-20241030191300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li>I've understood these criterion to be supplementing GNG, that is, that if a band or individual artist meets one or more of these criterion, they *likely* are notable. However, in the past when I was a younger and less experienced editor, I think I did understand these as being additions or alternatives to GNG. So I think that should be clarified. This has come up on the deletion discussion for <a href="/wiki/Jayson_Sherlock" class="mw-redirect" title="Jayson Sherlock">Jayson Sherlock</a>. He is a member or former member of several very notable bands, and for that reason I presumed that he would easily have independent coverage about him specifically. However, to my surprise, there's only one interview of him in a reliable source that would provide notability (there's some interviews on personal blogs or minor sites that wouldn't be RS except for him making statements about himself). But at least one editor has used the above criterion to argue that the article should be kept.--<a href="/wiki/User:3family6" title="User:3family6">3family6</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:3family6" title="User talk:3family6">Talk to me</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/3family6" title="Special:Contributions/3family6">See what I have done</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-3family6-20241101122000-North8000-20241030191300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Just as an aside, interviews do not contribute to GNG unless they include secondary independent SIGCOV (such as a substantial background introduction by the interviewer). <a href="/wiki/User:JoelleJay" title="User:JoelleJay">JoelleJay</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JoelleJay" title="User talk:JoelleJay">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-JoelleJay-20241101153900-3family6-20241101122000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:39, 1 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li>Agreed. That's important to note. I was presuming such, and also why I wouldn't rely on a singular interview as the sole source for establish GNG.--<a href="/wiki/User:3family6" title="User:3family6">3family6</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:3family6" title="User talk:3family6">Talk to me</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/3family6" title="Special:Contributions/3family6">See what I have done</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-3family6-20241101163000-JoelleJay-20241101153900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:30, 1 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li></ul></dd> <dd>That's how I see most SNGs (and the outliers ought to follow their lead). At the very least, we can clarify that NBAND is meant as an indicator for the GNG, and not a substitute. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Shooterwalker&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Shooterwalker (page does not exist)">Shooterwalker</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shooterwalker" title="User talk:Shooterwalker">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Shooterwalker-20241102020400-3family6-20241101122000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li>As someone who thought the old NSPORTS was wildly overinclusive and needed cleanup... these NBAND guidelines don't seem that bad? If two plainly notable musicians were discovered to have done some obscure team-up in the 1970s, that does indeed seem to be a notable topic and useful to have linked somewhere, even if there isn't tons of info on this collaboration. It's worth mentioning because minor subtopics are often merged to the overarching topic (e.g. songs to the album), but there may not be a clear merge location for this if both parties were equal contributors, and a short separate article is an acceptable compromise. Similarly, the complaint about #5 seems to be about just how "indie" the hypothetical label is, but this seems like a solvable problem. If a band fails GNG, that implies that either their two albums really were from a very obscure indie outfit and thus also fail NBAND, or else that we have some sort of non-English sources issue where we may consider keeping on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CSB" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CSB">WP:CSB</a> grounds (i.e. that sources probably do exist to pass GNG, but they're difficult to find, and we can trust they exist because this was a major and notable label releasing the band's work). About the only suggestion I can offer is that the comment in 6 about avoiding circular notability could probably be phrased in the sense of GNG, i.e. that the two notable musicians need to both meet GNG and then this will create a new, safe NBAND notability for their collaboration. <a href="/wiki/User:SnowFire" title="User:SnowFire">SnowFire</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SnowFire" title="User talk:SnowFire">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-SnowFire-20241104173600-North8000-20241030191300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>The reverse situation, such as is currently being discussed at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jayson_Sherlock" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jayson Sherlock">Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jayson Sherlock</a>, is one where you have someone who was/is in multiple notable bands, but doesn't have independent coverage about them as an individual person. -- <a href="/wiki/User:3family6" title="User:3family6">3family6</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:3family6" title="User talk:3family6">Talk to me</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/3family6" title="Special:Contributions/3family6">See what I have done</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-3family6-20241107223000-SnowFire-20241104173600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></li> <li>Agreed with deprecation; "Rely on the GNG for band notability" is the correct answer. And is the correct answer for many other things about which we have SNGs that attempt to be alternatives to GNG. Perhaps the only justifiable one is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NACADEMIC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NACADEMIC">WP:NACADEMIC</a>, because special considerations apply in that sphere (academics and other journal-publishing researchers are generally unknown the public and the public-facing media coverage like newspapers but may have major impacts in particular fields and on the world; what determines their influence level is primilar the frequency of citation of their work by other academics). No such special considerations apply with regard to bands or most other categories. We have some SNGs that are helpful because they are written to comply with GNG, to explain predictively what is most likely or unlikely to pass a GNG test at ANI, rather than trying to be an end-run around GNG. If we actually needed an SNG for bands and musicians, then the current SNG for them could be replaced by something like that. However, we don't actually need an SNG for bands and musicians.PS: The ideas in the current NBAND SNG are daft. Lots of musical acts have multiple albums (i.e. tracks released at the same time under a grouping title) and lots of indie labels (which may just be some dude in his bedroom) exist with multiple acts, some of them nominally notable [because of NBAND's issues, making this a vicious cycle!], but that doesn't actually make every band on that notional label (nor the label itself) enclopedia-worthy. Some of these are farcically obscure acts [not a denigration – I'm probably buying their stuff]. This is not 1977; you do not need a vinyl pressing plant to be a music label. You just need to figure out how to fill in a web form at Bandcamp and Spotify, and have enough of a clue about how the present music industry works (often just within a narrow subculture) that you can convince some acts (probably your friends in the same scene) that you can help them if they agree to be on your roster. PPS: A side issue is that "albums" isn't a good metric anyway, since several genres are not album-driven at all, and the entire notion of albums is being increasingly questioned in the era of on-demand music. — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-SMcCandlish-20241115215900-North8000-20241030191300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:59, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li></ul> I'd be happy to see #5 and #6 completely eliminated. What does it take to make that happen? What's the next step? <a href="/wiki/User:Graywalls" title="User:Graywalls">Graywalls</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Graywalls" title="User talk:Graywalls">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Graywalls-20241116020800-Issues_with_antiquated_guideline_for_WP:NBAND_that_essentially_cause_run_of_the" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>If you believe this would amount to a major change to the guideline, then you should probably be making a formal <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PROPOSAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PROPOSAL">WP:PROPOSAL</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-WhatamIdoing-20241116045200-Graywalls-20241116020800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:52, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a>, would clarifying that SNG don't override GNG requirements be a major change?--<a href="/wiki/User:3family6" title="User:3family6">3family6</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:3family6" title="User talk:3family6">Talk to me</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/3family6" title="Special:Contributions/3family6">See what I have done</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-3family6-20241116115700-WhatamIdoing-20241116045200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:57, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Yes. And if you want to try that, you should find and read the many previous discussions about that. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-WhatamIdoing-20241116192700-3family6-20241116115700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:27, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPLACE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPLACE">WP:NPLACE</a>, which presumes populated legally recognized places are notable. So, all it takes is prove the legal recognition and presence of people and it's assumed to be notable, unless refuted.</dd> <dd>A legally recognized city is presumed, but not guaranteed notable. If it doesn't meet GNG, then the presumed notability can be refuted. It does essentially "override" GNG though a short cut, but is subject to removal by presenting failure to meet GNG.</dd> <dd>Such presumption is not present for most things. For example, simply quoting a local paper about a gas station opening up and operating demonstrates existence of that gas station, but there's no presumed notability for businesses.</dd> <dd>NBAND 5 and 6 qualifies bands and albums into Wikipedia far easier than they should and they stand as a burden to article deletion due to presumed notability under tenuously defined importance, such as having released two albums through an important indie label Four Legged Octopus, which is "important" because the MailBox Etc based label has been around for five years and has a roster. <a href="/wiki/User:Graywalls" title="User:Graywalls">Graywalls</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Graywalls" title="User talk:Graywalls">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Graywalls-20241118165500-3family6-20241116115700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li>Not speaking to this issue directly, but the trend in subject specific guidelines, IMHO, has been to reduce the influence of SNGs relative to GNG, not override. When we started these projects 20 years ago, almost every article was low hanging fruit, almost bound to be found notable eventually. As an example, Military History Wikiproject adopted and modified <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SOLDIER" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SOLDIER">WP:SOLDIER</a>, a set of specific and non-subjective criteria which if met gave an indication of presumption of reliable sources being found somewhere eventually. This was intended to screen out a lot of "dead veteran I know" articles, not become the floor for inclusion. When it <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1008759107#rfc">finally came up for discussion</a> it was made clear SOLDIER was just a project thing and wasn't itself an approved SNG. It was quickly decommissioned, but SOLDIER criteria was for many years a frequently mentioned keep argument at AfD. As another example, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SPORTSPERSON" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SPORTSPERSON">WP:SPORTSPERSON</a> is another project related shorthand (but consensus-approved SNG), which made it more difficult to create and keep articles about athletes without at least one source with significant coverage, which still seems a low bar indeed. IMHO the original intent of such SNGs was to screen article candidates, but as the pedia grew, we started using SNGs to keep them. Adjusting SNGs to meet the modern usage era seems the practical and accepted path. The medical SNGs are still used as exclusionary, and for the best reasons. <a href="/wiki/User:BusterD" title="User:BusterD">BusterD</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BusterD" title="User talk:BusterD">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-BusterD-20241119152100-Graywalls-20241116020800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:21, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">IMHO the original intent of such SNGs was to screen article candidates, but as the pedia grew, we started using SNGs to keep them.</q> As someone who joined 10 years in, this seems to have been the trend.--<a href="/wiki/User:3family6" title="User:3family6">3family6</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:3family6" title="User talk:3family6">Talk to me</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/3family6" title="Special:Contributions/3family6">See what I have done</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-3family6-20241119182000-BusterD-20241119152100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:20, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Yes, in my opinion SNGs should be exclusionary criteria, necessary but not sufficient for notability. <a href="/wiki/User:JoelleJay" title="User:JoelleJay">JoelleJay</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JoelleJay" title="User talk:JoelleJay">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-JoelleJay-20241120230200-BusterD-20241119152100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Agreed, and this makes a lot more sense to me. I haven’t paid much attention to SNGs till recent years, so it has been my impression that they are applied as supplemental options towards keeps and creates. The only one that I even think of as exclusionary is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NEVENT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NEVENT">WP:NEVENT</a>, although that’s got its own difficulties inherent.</dd> <dd>Ideally I’d like to see every AfD “SNG-therefore-keep” voter back their rationale up by saying that they endorse the SNG by its likelihood toward <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NEXIST" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NEXIST">sources existing</a>. — <a href="/wiki/User:HTGS" title="User:HTGS">HTGS</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HTGS" title="User talk:HTGS">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-HTGS-20241121223400-JoelleJay-20241120230200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Blind_1RR/3RR" data-mw-thread-id="h-Blind_1RR/3RR-20241110000900">Blind 1RR/3RR</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Blind 1RR/3RR">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> Blind enforcement of 1RR/3RR does not serve the project. The question should not be whether one violated the rule, but whether they violated the rule in a way that does not benefit the article. If there is no objection to the violation, we can reasonably assume that they are benefiting the article, or at least causing no harm. The decision should be left in the hands of other editors. Could this be used as a weapon? Would there be editors who claim harm where none exists? Certainly, but that's preferable to what we have now. The problem, no doubt familiar to editors reading this, is that there are often not enough "good" editors around to protect an article from "bad" editors (malicious or merely inexperienced) while staying within 1RR/3RR. There is no restriction on the number of BOLD edits by a given editor, or on the number of editors performing BOLD edits. ―<a href="/wiki/User:Mandruss" title="User:Mandruss">Mandruss</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mandruss" title="User talk:Mandruss">☎</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Mandruss-20241110000900-Blind_1RR/3RR" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>1RR in contentious areas should be fully maintained, with no exceptions. Otherwise, edit wars will quickly develop. <a href="/wiki/User:GoodDay" title="User:GoodDay">GoodDay</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GoodDay" title="User talk:GoodDay">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-GoodDay-20241110001100-Mandruss-20241110000900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> <dl><dd>If someone is repeatedly reverting reverts, then there is objection to the violation by definition. That's what edit warring is. If someone is making the same BOLD edit that needs to be reverted multiple times, then they are also edit warring. There are already exceptions with these rules for patent nonsense or obvious vandalism. If there's routine disruption, then it only makes the problem worse to revert over and over instead of taking it to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFPP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFPP">WP:RFPP</a>. If you feel the need to make more than one or two reverts in a content dispute, then it's time to either consider other options or step away from the article. <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thebiguglyalien-20241110013100-Mandruss-20241110000900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>It's not about edit warring or re-reverts; the problem exists without a single re-revert. Editor A does ten BOLD edits, five of which are detrimental to the article because they are too inexperienced (this stuff takes years to master, so that's far from uncommon). Editors B, C, D, and E contribute an additional twenty detrimental edits (along with any number of good ones, that number being irrelevant for our purposes here). Meanwhile, competent editors F, G, and H are limited to a total of nine reverts, leaving 21 detrimental edits in the article. I say F, G, and H should be allowed to revert until someone claims they are doing harm. ―<a href="/wiki/User:Mandruss" title="User:Mandruss">Mandruss</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mandruss" title="User talk:Mandruss">☎</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Mandruss-20241110020400-Thebiguglyalien-20241110013100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Where are you seeing thirty detrimental edits to an article in every day? Why isn't this article protected? Why aren't editors F, G, and H starting a discussion? Why are they reverting Editor A's edits individually instead of rolling them back? Why is it so urgent that these edits need to be reverted right this moment? Even on the off chance that they encounter such an article that exists, F, G, and H would not need to engage in tag-team reverting (which is still edit warring) if they knew what they were doing. <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thebiguglyalien-20241110020700-Mandruss-20241110020400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:07, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>You are welcome to reduce the numbers as you please; the problem exists regardless. The article is protected, even with ECP, and there is no shortage of registered editors who have 30 days and 500 edits and still have years to go before they are editing with any reasonable level of competence. Some never reach that point. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Why aren't editors F, G, and H starting a discussion?</q> Seriously? <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Why are they reverting Editor A's edits individually instead of rolling them back?</q> Because (1) they may not have the rollback right, and the rollback right should not be required to function as an editor, (2) they would be rolling back five good edits, and (3) it's impossible if Editor A's edits are interleaved with those of any other editor(s). <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Why is it so urgent that these edits need to be reverted right this moment?</q> Because (particularly in large and very active articles) the bad edits can easily be missed if not caught immediately. Then they stay in the article for some unknown amount of time until noticed by a competent editor and corrected with a BOLD edit. Could be months or even years. Is that good for the article? ―<a href="/wiki/User:Mandruss" title="User:Mandruss">Mandruss</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mandruss" title="User talk:Mandruss">☎</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Mandruss-20241110022700-Thebiguglyalien-20241110020700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:27, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk inline-quote-talk-marks">they may not have the rollback right</q>: Not the main point of this thread, but <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Twinkle" title="Wikipedia:Twinkle">Wikipedia:Twinkle</a> has its verison of rollback, available for any registered user.—<a href="/wiki/User:Bagumba" title="User:Bagumba">Bagumba</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bagumba" title="User talk:Bagumba">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Bagumba-20241110045700-Mandruss-20241110022700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:57, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Could you give an example or two where this has caused a problem? And I note that you have answered the two most important questions inadequately: if an article is subject to edit-warring it should be fully protected, and you dismissed "Why aren't editors F, G, and H starting a discussion?" with "Seriously?". Yes, of course it's a serious question. Starting a discussion is the best way of defusing an edit war. <a href="/wiki/User:Phil_Bridger" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Phil Bridger">Phil Bridger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phil_Bridger" title="User talk:Phil Bridger">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Phil_Bridger-20241110092000-Mandruss-20241110022700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>"Seriously?", while counter to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DR">WP:DR</a> policy, might be an honest response. I often get page protection or block requests, where my first response is often "where's the discussion?" —<a href="/wiki/User:Bagumba" title="User:Bagumba">Bagumba</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bagumba" title="User talk:Bagumba">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Bagumba-20241110100200-Phil_Bridger-20241110092000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:02, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Unless <a href="/wiki/User:Mandruss" title="User:Mandruss">Mandruss</a> is extremely lazy, for which I have no evidence, I don't see how that response can be honest. It only takes a few seconds to start a discussion, no longer than it took to start this one, and the person who starts it wins some extra points. <a href="/wiki/User:Phil_Bridger" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Phil Bridger">Phil Bridger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phil_Bridger" title="User talk:Phil Bridger">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Phil_Bridger-20241110170800-Bagumba-20241110100200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:08, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">extremely lazy, for which I have no evidence</q> Thank you! I have my share of faults and shortcomings, but I don't think extreme laziness is one of them. So there should be new discussions for each of the bad edits (separately for the sake of efficiency and organization), and the bad edits should remain in the article until enough editors have the time, interest, and attention span to form consensuses against them while attending to other important matters. This, at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump" title="Talk:Donald Trump">an ATP where we're struggling to keep the ToC at a manageable size even without such discussions</a>. I don't know what articles you're editing, but I want to work there. ―<a href="/wiki/User:Mandruss" title="User:Mandruss">Mandruss</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mandruss" title="User talk:Mandruss">☎</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Mandruss-20241111035100-Phil_Bridger-20241110170800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:51, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Did you seriously just point to <a href="/wiki/Donald_Trump" title="Donald Trump">Donald Trump</a> as your example and then say you don't know what articles aren't like that <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thebiguglyalien-20241111040100-Mandruss-20241111035100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I gather the <a href="/wiki/Donald_Trump" title="Donald Trump">Donald Trump</a> article is a rare anomaly where bad content is something we have to live with because the current rules are incapable of preventing it. After all, it's just one article. I would oppose that reasoning. I'd say article quality is at least as important there as anywhere else. ―<a href="/wiki/User:Mandruss" title="User:Mandruss">Mandruss</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mandruss" title="User talk:Mandruss">☎</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Mandruss-20241111043300-Thebiguglyalien-20241111040100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk inline-quote-talk-marks">So there should be new discussions for each of the bad edits ...</q>: Yes, or what is an alternative? Your suggestion to favor "good" edits over "bad" is problematic when everyone says their's are the "good" ones. Polarizing topics can be difficult for patrolling admins to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AGF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AGF">WP:AGF</a> determine "good" v. "bad" edits if they are not subject matter experts.—<a href="/wiki/User:Bagumba" title="User:Bagumba">Bagumba</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bagumba" title="User talk:Bagumba">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Bagumba-20241111054300-Mandruss-20241111035100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Remember that consecutive edits by a single editor are treated as a single revert for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:3RR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:3RR">WP:3RR</a> purposes. So, in your case, editor H can go back and revert the various bad edits and, even if they mechanically break it out into multiple edits, they still have done one revert... Until someone goes back and re-reverts. <a href="/wiki/User:Simonm223" title="User:Simonm223">Simonm223</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simonm223" title="User talk:Simonm223">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Simonm223-20241120195800-Mandruss-20241110020400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>If "do not repeat edits without consensus" were the rule (rather than "do not revert"), it would take care of this problem. <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Levivich-20241110034200-Mandruss-20241110000900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Who said anything about repeated edits? Am I missing something? I'm tired at the moment, so that's a possibility. ―<a href="/wiki/User:Mandruss" title="User:Mandruss">Mandruss</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mandruss" title="User talk:Mandruss">☎</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Mandruss-20241110040400-Levivich-20241110034200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>What do you mean, who said? I said something about repeated edits :-) If the rule were "do not repeat edits without consensus" 1x or 3x in 24 hours, instead of "do not revert" 1x or 3x in 24 hours (which leads to the whole "what exactly counts as a revert?" issue), the problem you are describing would not happen. The 'bad' editor can make 10 bad edits, and the 'good' editor can revert all 10 edits without violating do-not-repeat-3RR, and the 'bad' editor would be able to repeat 3 of those 10 edits without crossing do-not-repeat-3RR, and the 'good' editor can revert all 3 of those without crossing do-not-repeat-3RR, et voila: equilibrium. The problem is we focus on "revert" instead of "repeat." To tamp down on edit warring, we should prohibit people from repeating their edits, not from "reverting" (whatever that means, exactly) edits. <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Levivich-20241110045000-Mandruss-20241110040400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Well I'll have to come back after a sleep and try to comprehend that. ―<a href="/wiki/User:Mandruss" title="User:Mandruss">Mandruss</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mandruss" title="User talk:Mandruss">☎</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Mandruss-20241110045600-Levivich-20241110045000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:56, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk inline-quote-talk-marks">Blind enforcement of 1RR/3RR does not serve the project</q>: Are you referring to page protection or blocks? On contentious topics or any subject? —<a href="/wiki/User:Bagumba" title="User:Bagumba">Bagumba</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bagumba" title="User talk:Bagumba">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Bagumba-20241110051100-Mandruss-20241110000900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Wiki-policy_about_Bibliography_List_in_an_article_about_a_famous_person." data-mw-thread-id="h-Wiki-policy_about_Bibliography_List_in_an_article_about_a_famous_person.-20241111160600">Wiki-policy about Bibliography List in an article about a famous person.</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Wiki-policy about Bibliography List in an article about a famous person.">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> User: <a href="/wiki/User:Walter_Tau" title="User:Walter Tau">Walter Tau</a> and user: <a href="/wiki/User:Yngvadottir" title="User:Yngvadottir">Yngvadottir</a> can not agree whether a list of publications about a singer is appropriate in the article about this singer <a href="/wiki/Orville_Peck" title="Orville Peck">Orville Peck</a>. I placed this list “Bibliography: publications about Orville Peck” after section “Filmography”. She keeps deleting it without citing a specific wiki-policy. <a href="/wiki/User:Thriley" title="User:Thriley">Thriley</a> explained the deletion with “This is excessive” again without citing a specific wiki-policy. Can someone explain to us what wiki-policy regulates Bibliographic Lists in an article?— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/User:Walter_Tau" title="User:Walter Tau">Walter Tau</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Walter_Tau#top" title="User talk:Walter Tau">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Walter_Tau" title="Special:Contributions/Walter Tau">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Walter_Tau-20241111160600-Wiki-policy_about_Bibliography_List_in_an_article_about_a_famous_person." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Walter_Tau" title="User:Walter Tau">Walter Tau</a>: Policies and guidelines define what is allowed in articles, They do not mandate the addition of anything. Whether or not content is due in an article is an editorial decision reflecting the consensus of the interested community. FWIW, I agree that a Bibliography section that large is excessive. Take it to the talk page and gain consensus there for how large a bibliography, if any, to include in the article. (I am ignoring the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_warring" title="Wikipedia:Edit warring">edit warring</a> that has been going on, but be aware that any future edit warring can lead to sanctions on your editing.) - <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Donald_Albury" title="User talk:Donald Albury">Donald Albury</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Donald_Albury-20241111162800-Walter_Tau-20241111160600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/MOS:FURTHER" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:FURTHER">MOS:FURTHER</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Further_reading" title="Wikipedia:Further reading">WP:Further reading</a> might be relevant here. The Wikiproject <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BIB" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BIB">WP:BIB</a> may also be of interest. <a href="/wiki/User:Caeciliusinhorto-public" title="User:Caeciliusinhorto-public">Caeciliusinhorto-public</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Caeciliusinhorto-public" title="User talk:Caeciliusinhorto-public">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Caeciliusinhorto-public-20241113114800-Walter_Tau-20241111160600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Citing_a_paper_in_a_journal_versus_citing_the_journal_itself" data-mw-thread-id="h-Citing_a_paper_in_a_journal_versus_citing_the_journal_itself-20241115002500">Citing a paper in a journal versus citing the journal itself</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Citing a paper in a journal versus citing the journal itself">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> I wanted to publicize <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(academic_journals)#Sanity_check:_Citing_a_journal_versus_citing_a_paper_in_a_journal?" title="Wikipedia talk:Notability (academic journals)">this discussion</a> about the proper interpretation of the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NJOURNALS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NJOURNALS">WP:NJOURNALS</a> essay. In essence, the issue is whether a journal that publishes frequently cited papers counts as "frequently cited" or if the journal itself has to be frequently cited. Though the essay is just an essay, it is often used in AfD discussions and assumptions about its meaning have been the basis of closing decisions, so there is a material issue here. <a href="/wiki/User:Botterweg" title="User:Botterweg">Botterweg</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Botterweg" title="User talk:Botterweg"> (talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Botterweg-20241115002500-Citing_a_paper_in_a_journal_versus_citing_the_journal_itself" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:25, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>This probably isn't something that needs to be advertised here. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:N" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:N">WT:N</a> would have been a better place. In any event, it appears your question has basically been answered by others. I'm not sure what more there is to add. <a href="/wiki/User:Voorts" title="User:Voorts">voorts</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Voorts" title="User talk:Voorts">talk</a>/<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Voorts" title="Special:Contributions/Voorts">contributions</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Voorts-20241115012100-Botterweg-20241115002500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:21, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Thanks, I'm still learning my way around these behind-the-scenes pages. What I'm looking for is just a clear consensus one way or the other. So nothing fancy, just "I (dis)agree with so-and-so"-type comments. <a href="/wiki/User:Botterweg" title="User:Botterweg">Botterweg</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Botterweg" title="User talk:Botterweg"> (talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Botterweg-20241115015100-Voorts-20241115012100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:51, 15 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Protect_sockpuppet_tags?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Protect_sockpuppet_tags?-20241116000400">Protect sockpuppet tags?</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Protect sockpuppet tags?">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> Should sockpuppet user pages with tags be protected to extended confirmed only or admin only. This is to prevent removal or modification as the edit filter only prevents users less than 4 days old and have made less than 10 edits. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/125.63.140.154" title="Special:Contributions/125.63.140.154">125.63.140.154</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:125.63.140.154&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:125.63.140.154 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-125.63.140.154-20241116000400-Protect_sockpuppet_tags?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:04, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Non-admins tagging can go to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFPP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFPP">WP:RFPP</a> as usual. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/1.129.104.29" title="Special:Contributions/1.129.104.29">1.129.104.29</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:1.129.104.29" title="User talk:1.129.104.29">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-1.129.104.29-20241116001300-125.63.140.154-20241116000400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="What_determines_"global_consensus"?" data-mw-thread-id="h-What_determines_"global_consensus"?-20241117104100">What determines "global consensus"?</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: What determines "global consensus"?">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> This <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Levels_of_consensus" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes">ArbCom resolution</a> established that "Where there is a global consensus to edit in a certain way, it should be respected and cannot be overruled by a local consensus." I would like to ask what is the standard for defining that there is global consensus. If the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Popular_pages" title="Wikipedia:Popular pages">top 100 articles</a> in a certain category all are written in a certain way, is this considered sufficient for global consensus? If a 100 articles are not enough, what is the threshold? Is it proportional to the number articles in that category? Should then this warrant that all articles in that category be written in that way (unless very clearly harmful to the specific article)? <a href="/wiki/User:Milo8505" title="User:Milo8505">Milo8505</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Milo8505" title="User talk:Milo8505">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Milo8505-20241117104100-What_determines_"global_consensus"?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CONLEVEL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CONLEVEL">WP:CONLEVEL</a> was already a policy, independent of that resolution. It was just being cited as a principle used in deciding that case. —<a href="/wiki/User:Bagumba" title="User:Bagumba">Bagumba</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bagumba" title="User talk:Bagumba">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Bagumba-20241117160300-Milo8505-20241117104100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:03, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>I believe that "global consensus" refers to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:P%26G" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:P&G">policies and guidelines</a> in particular, and to generally accepted practices across the whole of the English Wikipedia. A consensus that applies to just 100 articles out of the almost 7 million article in the English Wikipedia is a local consensus. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Donald_Albury" title="User talk:Donald Albury">Donald Albury</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Donald_Albury-20241117161400-Milo8505-20241117104100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Milo8505" title="User:Milo8505">Milo8505</a>, you asked this question in a way that can't be answered. Consensus does not depend on categories, and Wikipedia does not deal in abstract quantities but in concrete articles. Is this about whether to have an infobox on <a href="/wiki/Gustav_Mahler" title="Gustav Mahler">Gustav Mahler</a>? If so then please say so, to provide some context to your question. <a href="/wiki/User:Phil_Bridger" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Phil Bridger">Phil Bridger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phil_Bridger" title="User talk:Phil Bridger">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Phil_Bridger-20241117173400-Milo8505-20241117104100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:34, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Phil_Bridger" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Phil Bridger">Phil Bridger</a> Yes, it is about that topic. I believe that there is sufficient global consensus about the inclusion of infoboxes on biographies. I am well aware that the official policy is "no policy defined", but I see a clear trend, by looking at the most read articles, that all biographies - of musicians and non musicians alike - have an infobox, except a select few classical music composers.</dd> <dd>I do not currently have the whole information regarding exactly how many of all biographies have an infobox, and that is why I was asking what is usually considered consensus.</dd> <dd>However, given that I'm very aware that a hundred articles out of seven million is not precisely consensus, I will attempt, when I have the time, to go through every single biography to determine an exact percentage.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Milo8505" title="User:Milo8505">Milo8505</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Milo8505" title="User talk:Milo8505">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Milo8505-20241117185600-Phil_Bridger-20241117173400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>If you want to spend your time doing that then I can't stop you, but I warn you that you will be wasting your time. That is not how consensus is measured. <a href="/wiki/User:Phil_Bridger" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Phil Bridger">Phil Bridger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phil_Bridger" title="User talk:Phil Bridger">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Phil_Bridger-20241117191000-Milo8505-20241117185600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Obviously I will not count by hand, I have some idea of how to use an automated tool to do that.</dd> <dd>But then, how is consensus measured?</dd> <dd>I'm under the impression that there is a group of very determined and very vocal editors that fiercely oppose infoboxes on classical composers' articles (which leads to most of them having discussions about infoboxes, citing each other as examples of articles without infobox), separate from the majority of biographies, which have an infobox.</dd> <dd>I see no better way of proving (or maybe disproving) my point than this, because my earlier points of infoboxes being a great thing for <a href="/wiki/Gustav_Mahler" title="Gustav Mahler">Gustav Mahler</a>'s article, and the fact that numerous non-classical musicians have infoboxes, and lengthy ones at that, seem to have fallen on deaf ears.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Milo8505" title="User:Milo8505">Milo8505</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Milo8505" title="User talk:Milo8505">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Milo8505-20241117200100-Phil_Bridger-20241117191000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>And I would like to state, for the record, that I'm not doing this out of spite, or out of a personal interest (I'm actually losing my time by arguing about this), but because I truly, wholeheartedly believe that an infobox on each and every biography, and in general, on every article where there could be one (this excludes abstract topics such as <a href="/wiki/Existencialism" class="mw-redirect" title="Existencialism">existencialism</a>) would make Wikipedia a truly better place.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Milo8505" title="User:Milo8505">Milo8505</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Milo8505" title="User talk:Milo8505">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Milo8505-20241117204300-Phil_Bridger-20241117191000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I would have to search the archives, but we actually held an RFC (one of the ways in which we determine GLOBAL consensus) that was focused on whether to mandate infoboxes on articles about composers… which determined that there were valid reasons not to require them (I suppose you could say that global consensus was to defer to local consensus on this specific issue). Remember <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Other_Stuff_Exists" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Other Stuff Exists">WP:Other Stuff Exists</a> is not an accepted argument here at WP. And that “standard practice” often has exceptions. <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Blueboar-20241117220600-Milo8505-20241117204300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:06, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I understand, but that is not my sole argument. I have provided other arguments in favor, which you can read at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Gustav_Mahler" title="Talk:Gustav Mahler">the aforementioned talk page</a> which basically boil down to:</dd> <dd>in my opinion, <ol><li>Infoboxes make standardized information more easily accessible, and</li> <li>They do not harm the rest of the article, as they do not displace the lead paragraph.</li></ol></dd> <dd>However, in the linked talk page, I see that opponents of infoboxes rely somewhat on the loosely established precedent/consensus that composers shouldn't have infoboxes.</dd> <dd>That is why I wanted to bring forth a new argument, using the, as I see it, very established consensus for infoboxes in biographies, and what I want to know here is whether this consensus can be proven to exist (or what is it required for this consensus to exist). <a href="/wiki/User:Milo8505" title="User:Milo8505">Milo8505</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Milo8505" title="User talk:Milo8505">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Milo8505-20241118073000-Blueboar-20241117220600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>This whole thing about "global" and "local" consensus seems to confuse everyone, and consequently folks make up whatever seems plausible to them. Let me give you a potted history and the usual claims, and perhaps that will help you understand the principle.</dd> <dd>'Way back in the day, infoboxes didn't exist. AIUI the first widely used infobox template was {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Taxobox" title="Template:Taxobox">taxobox</a>}} in 2004, and the general concept appeared soon after. However, <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Infobox&oldid=178933718">through the end of 2007, Template:Infobox</a> didn't look like what we're used to. Originally, an 'infobox template' was literally a <a href="/wiki/Help:Table" title="Help:Table">wikitext table</a> that you could copy and fill in however you wanted.<a href="#cite_note-1">[1]</a></dd> <dd>While infoboxes were being developed, the editors at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Composers" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers">Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers</a> decided that infoboxes were <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes" title="Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes">a bad idea</a> specifically for articles about <a href="/wiki/Classical_composers" class="mw-redirect" title="Classical composers">classical composers</a>, so after a series of disputes and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Composers/Infobox_debates" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Infobox debates">discussions</a>, in April 2007 they wrote a note that said, basically, "BTW, the sitewide rules don't apply to the articles we <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OWN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OWN">WP:OWN</a>."<a href="#cite_note-2">[2]</a></dd> <dd>The conflict between this group and the rest of the community eventually resulted in the 2010 <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Composers/Infoboxes_RfC" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Infoboxes RfC">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Infoboxes RfC</a>. The result of this years-long dispute is memorialized in the example given in what is now the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus#Levels_of_consensus" title="Wikipedia:Consensus">Wikipedia:Consensus#Levels of consensus</a> section of the policy: "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject">WikiProject</a> cannot decide that some generally accepted <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:POLICY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:POLICY">policy or guideline</a> does not apply to articles within its scope."</dd> <dd>Or, to be rather more pointy-headed about it: WikiProject Composers doesn't get to decide that "their" articles are exempt from <a href="/wiki/MOS:INFOBOXUSE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INFOBOXUSE">MOS:INFOBOXUSE</a>.</dd> <dd>What was then a statement about the "Purpose of consensus" or, before then, one of several "Exceptions" to forming a consensus on a talk page has since been renamed ==Levels of consensus==. Also, ArbCom (and consequently part of the community) has started talking about "global" consensus. I think that has confused people about the point.</dd> <dd>"Levels" of consensus could mean the strength of the consensus ("This is just a weak consensus, so..."). It could mean something about the process used ("My CENT-listed RFC trumps your Village pump post"). It could mean whether the consensus applies to the whole site ("We formed a consensus at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Article" title="Talk:Article">Talk:Article</a> about the first sentence of <a href="/wiki/Article" class="mw-disambig" title="Article">Article</a>, so now I need to make 500 other articles match this one"). And it could tell us something about how likely it is that the decision matches the overall view of the community.</dd> <dd>It's supposed to be that last one. We don't want a handful of people getting together on some page and saying "Let's reject this rule. This article needs to be censored. Copyvio restrictions are inconvenient. Bold-face text helps people see the important points. And we know this POV is correct, so it should dominate." We want quite the opposite: "The community says that this is usually the best thing, so let's do this."</dd> <dd>AFAICT, the overall view of The Community™ is that we think that there should not be any Official™ Rule saying that any subset of articles should have an infobox. We're probably doing this mostly for social reasons, rather than article reasons. For example, every single article about a US President, or atomic elements, or any number of other subjects, has an infobox – but we refuse to write any rule saying they should, or even that they usually should, even though we know the popularity is ever-increasing. For example, at the moment, <a href="/wiki/Georgina_Sutton" title="Georgina Sutton">Georgina Sutton</a> is the only biography linked on the <a href="/wiki/Main_Page" title="Main Page">Main Page</a> that doesn't have an infobox.</dd> <dd>I suspect that the closest we will come to such a rule during the next few years is a note about how popular they are. It should be possible to see how many articles (overall, or in particular subsets) already use infoboxes, and to add that information to <a href="/wiki/MOS:INFOBOXUSE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INFOBOXUSE">MOS:INFOBOXUSE</a>. For now, we could add a statement that "most" articles have an infobox.</dd> <dd></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-1"><a href="#cite_ref-1">^</a> Being able to do this in wikitext was was considered an improvement, because originally, you had to code tables in raw HTML. </li> <li id="cite_note-2"><a href="#cite_ref-2">^</a> This was not as unreasonable back then as it sounds now. WikiProjects were a significant source of subject-specific advice back then, and the rule-making systems were quite informal. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PROPOSAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PROPOSAL">WP:PROPOSAL</a> didn't exist until late 2008. Before then, most guidelines and even policies acquired their labels merely because someone decided to slap the tag on it, and if nobody objected, then that was the consensus for what to call it. </li> </ol></div> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-WhatamIdoing-20241117222700-Milo8505-20241117204300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Thank you very much for your detailed response.</dd> <dd>From what you have said, given that WikiProject composers have to follow <a href="/wiki/MOS:INFOBOXUSE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:INFOBOXUSE">MOS:INFOBOXUSE</a>, there should be a discussion on each and every composer's talk page to determine whether an infobox is warranted.</dd> <dd>I see this as a bit of a, difficult and fruitless endeavor, as the arguments presented, for either case, are always the same, and they all usually result in stalemates (like the one about <a href="/wiki/Gustav_Mahler" title="Gustav Mahler">Mahler</a>).</dd> <dd>What I propose is to change the policy, to, at least, recommend infoboxes on certain categories, given that, as you said, they are very popular. Or at the very least, as you suggest, acknowledge the fact that they are very popular.</dd> <dd>When I have time to gather more data on the use of infoboxes, I will propose a new RfC to try to commit this change to the policy.</dd> <dd>I am very well aware that my chances of success are slim, but, I'll do what I can do.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Milo8505" title="User:Milo8505">Milo8505</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Milo8505" title="User talk:Milo8505">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Milo8505-20241118080000-WhatamIdoing-20241117222700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:00, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Well, if "they all usually result in stalemates", then that represents a change, because the last complaint I saw about this subject said that the RFCs on whether to add an infobox almost always resulted in an infobox being added. Perhaps it varies by subject, however.</dd> <dd>Acknowledging that they're popular shouldn't require a proposal for a change. It should only require getting some decent numbers. Check the archives of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RAQ" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RAQ">WP:RAQ</a>; they probably can't query it directly, but if there's been a request, you'll see what could be done. It might also be possible to create a hidden category for "All articles with infoboxes", automagically transcluded, to get a count on the number of infoboxes. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-WhatamIdoing-20241120064500-Milo8505-20241118080000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:45, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>First of all, thank you again very much for your continued interest.</dd> <dd>The discussions around infoboxes (not RfCs, discussions on talk pages) as far as I have seen usually go something like:</dd> <dd>- I propose adding an infobox</dd> <dd>+ We have talked a lot about that and there are good reasonstm for which it should not be added</dd> <dd>- But I also have good reasonstm for which it should be added.</dd> <dd>(no comments for 4 years, then it begins again).</dd> <dd>I thought a bit about counting links, and I realized maybe getting this data is easier than I thought, see:</dd> <dd>For counting the number of transclusions to a given page, <a class="external text" href="https://linkcount.toolforge.org/">this tool</a> is very useful, and says that there are around 3.2 million infoboxes in total, and 460 thousand infoboxes about people. (on the (Article) namespace).</dd> <dd>Looking in the Talk namespace, there are around two million links to <a href="/wiki/Template:Wikiproject_Biography" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Wikiproject Biography">Template:Wikiproject Biography</a>.</dd> <dd>This seems to suggest that only around a quarter of all biographies have an infobox? Maybe I was wrong all along in my observation that infoboxes are very popular.</dd> <dd>I am however not too sure that the two million links to <a href="/wiki/Template:Wikiproject_Biography" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Wikiproject Biography">Template:Wikiproject Biography</a> on the Talk namespace actually corresponds to two million unique biographies.</dd> <dd>Maybe another way of getting this data would be better, I'll have to look at it on some other occasion that I have more time.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Milo8505" title="User:Milo8505">Milo8505</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Milo8505" title="User talk:Milo8505">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Milo8505-20241120112800-WhatamIdoing-20241120064500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I looked at the first 10 articles in <a href="/wiki/Category:Core_biography_articles" title="Category:Core biography articles">Category:Core biography articles</a>, and 100% had infoboxes. However, those ten articles used seven different infoboxes: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_person" title="Template:Infobox person">Template:Infobox person</a> (is this the one you looked at?)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_royalty" title="Template:Infobox royalty">Template:Infobox royalty</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_writer" title="Template:Infobox writer">Template:Infobox writer</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_saint" title="Template:Infobox saint">Template:Infobox saint</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_scientist" title="Template:Infobox scientist">Template:Infobox scientist</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_philosopher" title="Template:Infobox philosopher">Template:Infobox philosopher</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_writer" title="Template:Infobox writer">Template:Infobox writer</a></li></ul></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/Category:People_and_person_infobox_templates" title="Category:People and person infobox templates">Category:People and person infobox templates</a> lists dozens. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-WhatamIdoing-20241121232200-Milo8505-20241120112800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Yes! Yes!</dd> <dd>That's my point. Most[<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed" title="Wikipedia:Citation needed">citation needed</a>] good biographies have an infobox - except those of classical composers.</dd> <dd>I will look at the category you mentioned and try to count from there.</dd> <dd>Thank you very much! <a href="/wiki/User:Milo8505" title="User:Milo8505">Milo8505</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Milo8505" title="User talk:Milo8505">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Milo8505-20241122164600-WhatamIdoing-20241121232200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="How_do_I_contest_a_deleted_article?" data-mw-thread-id="h-How_do_I_contest_a_deleted_article?-20241118012800">How do I contest a deleted article?</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: How do I contest a deleted article?">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> An article was deleted, but it seems that it was incorrectly deleted. It was based on a composer and notability was questioned in an earlier version of the article. However, I was able to re-write a new version of the previously deleted article with the song the person composed that is clearly notable. The song has its own article here on Wikipedia. The article was about William Lawrence Hansen. <a href="/wiki/User:Starlighsky" title="User:Starlighsky">Starlighsky</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Starlighsky" title="User talk:Starlighsky">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Starlighsky-20241118012800-How_do_I_contest_a_deleted_article?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:28, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>This is type of question for the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki-Hell" title="Wikipedia:Wiki-Hell">help desk</a> or <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse" title="Wikipedia:Teahouse">teahouse</a>.... that said see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review" title="Wikipedia:Deletion review">Wikipedia:Deletion review</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a>🍁 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Moxy-20241118013600-Starlighsky-20241118012800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:36, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Starlighsky" title="User:Starlighsky">Starlighsky</a>, the note at the top of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dale_Wood_(William_Lawrence_Hansen)" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dale Wood (William Lawrence Hansen)">Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dale Wood (William Lawrence Hansen)</a> suggests working on it for a while and sending it through <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation" title="Wikipedia:Articles for creation">Wikipedia:Articles for creation</a>.</dd> <dd>If you'd like a copy of it, ask an admin to put a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REFUND" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REFUND">WP:REFUND</a> copy into your personal sandbox first (i.e., <a href="/wiki/User:Starlighsky/sandbox" title="User:Starlighsky/sandbox">User:Starlighsky/sandbox</a>). Once you think you've got it in good shape, I'd suggest first asking at a relevant WikiProject to see if you can get an extra set of eyes on it.</dd> <dd>Also, have you checked <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:The_Wikipedia_Library" title="Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library">Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library</a> for paywalled sources? <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-WhatamIdoing-20241118014200-Starlighsky-20241118012800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Thanks. I will try that and the library as well. <a href="/wiki/User:Starlighsky" title="User:Starlighsky">Starlighsky</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Starlighsky" title="User talk:Starlighsky">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Starlighsky-20241118015600-WhatamIdoing-20241118014200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>One thing you should know… writing a notable song does not automatically mean the song writer/composer will be considered notable. It certainly helps, but what you really need to find are a few sources that discuss this composer in some depth. Hope you find them. <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Blueboar-20241118022500-Starlighsky-20241118015600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:25, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Ok, thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Starlighsky" title="User:Starlighsky">Starlighsky</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Starlighsky" title="User talk:Starlighsky">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Starlighsky-20241118022900-Blueboar-20241118022500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Updating_NBAND:_Policy_proposal" data-mw-thread-id="h-Updating_NBAND:_Policy_proposal-20241118131800">Updating NBAND: Policy proposal</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Updating NBAND: Policy proposal">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> Per <a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#Issues_with_antiquated_guideline_for_WP:NBAND_that_essentially_cause_run_of_the_mill_non-notable_items_to_be_kept">this discussion</a>, I am formally proposing an update to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BAND" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BAND">WP:BAND</a>, which can be viewed <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Band_notability_proposal" title="Wikipedia:Band notability proposal">here</a>. The proposal can be voted on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Proposal_to_updated_WP:NBAND_to_be_explicitly_constrained_by_WP:GNG" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)">here</a>.--<a href="/wiki/User:3family6" title="User:3family6">3family6</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:3family6" title="User talk:3family6">Talk to me</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/3family6" title="Special:Contributions/3family6">See what I have done</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-3family6-20241118131800-Updating_NBAND:_Policy_proposal" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Should_WP:CRYSTAL_be_clarified?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Should_WP:CRYSTAL_be_clarified?-20241118194400">Should WP:CRYSTAL be clarified?</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Should WP:CRYSTAL be clarified?">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> The article <a href="/wiki/2028_United_States_presidential_election" title="2028 United States presidential election">2028 United States presidential election</a> was proposed for deletion several times (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/2028_United_States_presidential_election_(3rd_nomination)" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2028 United States presidential election (3rd nomination)">last one</a>). Editors repeatedly cited <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CRYSTAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CRYSTAL">WP:CRYSTAL</a>, which reads <pre>If preparation for the event is not already in progress, speculation about it must be well documented. Examples of appropriate topics include the [[{{#expr: {{CURRENTYEAR}} + 4 + ({{CURRENTYEAR}} * -1)mod4 }} United States presidential election|{{#expr: {{CURRENTYEAR}} + 4 + ({{CURRENTYEAR}} * -1)mod4 }} U.S. presidential election]] and [[{{#expr: {{CURRENTYEAR}} + (2*4) - ({{CURRENTYEAR}}mod4)}} Summer Olympics]]. By comparison, the [[{{#expr: {{CURRENTYEAR}} + (5*4) + ({{CURRENTYEAR}} * -1)mod4 }} United States presidential election|{{#expr: {{CURRENTYEAR}} + (5*4) + ({{CURRENTYEAR}} * -1)mod4 }} U.S. presidential election]] and [[{{#expr: {{CURRENTYEAR}} + (6*4) - ({{CURRENTYEAR}}mod4)}} Summer Olympics]] are not appropriate article topics if nothing can be said about them that is verifiable and not original research. </pre> According to this, the 2028 election and 2032 Olympics automatically became valid articles on January 1, 2024, although it is not really clear why that exact date matters. Should this be clarified, and if so, how? <a href="/wiki/User:Ypn%5E2" title="User:Ypn^2">ypn</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ypn%5E2" title="User talk:Ypn^2">^2</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Ypn^2-20241118194400-Should_WP:CRYSTAL_be_clarified?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:44, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>The relevant question IMO is why do we need an article on the 2028 or 2032 presidential elections? Any "significant coverage" is just speculation at this point. Until candidates declare, I don't see how articles on either is useful to readers. <a href="/wiki/User:Voorts" title="User:Voorts">voorts</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Voorts" title="User talk:Voorts">talk</a>/<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Voorts" title="Special:Contributions/Voorts">contributions</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Voorts-20241118195300-Ypn^2-20241118194400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Encyclopaedic coverage of predictions and speculation about and preparations for the 2028 presidential election that appear in reliable sources is possible and (in at least some cases) due. Similarly things like whether (and if so what) changes to electoral collage allocations will happen, etc should also be easily found by someone searching. Whether that should be on its own article yet or as part of a broader article will depend entirely on the volume of encyclopaedic material there is. Similarly for the Olympics. As soon as we have coverage about the next and next+1 US presidential elections and Olympic games there should be blue links from the titles those articles will reside at when they have articles (e.g. <a href="/wiki/2036_Summer_Olympics" class="mw-redirect" title="2036 Summer Olympics">2036 Summer Olympics</a> was kept at AfD (although moved to <a href="/wiki/Bids_for_the_2036_Summer_Olympics" title="Bids for the 2036 Summer Olympics">Bids for the 2036 Summer Olympics</a>) in November 2022 due to there being significant sourcing about the preparations). I don't think the dates in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CRYSTAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CRYSTAL">WP:CRYSTAL</a> should be taken as "there must be an article" but as loose guidelines along the lines of "significantly before this time sufficient information to justify a standalone article is unlikely; it is unlikely there will not be sufficient information for a standalone article significantly after this time." i.e. those dates are the approximate midpoint in the range when sufficient information for a standlone article existing changes from very unlikely to very likely. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241118203600-Voorts-20241118195300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:36, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Request_for_comment_on_the_relationship_between_WP:CRITERIA_and_WP:TITLEFORMAT" data-mw-thread-id="h-Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Request_for_comment_on_the_relationship_between_WP-20241118221900"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Request_for_comment_on_the_relationship_between_WP:CRITERIA_and_WP:TITLEFORMAT" title="Wikipedia talk:Article titles">Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Request for comment on the relationship between WP:CRITERIA and WP:TITLEFORMAT</a></h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Request for comment on the relationship between WP:CRITERIA and WP:TITLEFORMAT">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> Please see subject RfC. <a href="/wiki/User:Cinderella157" title="User:Cinderella157">Cinderella157</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cinderella157" title="User talk:Cinderella157">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Cinderella157-20241118221900-Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Request_for_comment_on_the_relationship_between_WP" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="We_need_to_fix_the_admin_recall_process" data-mw-thread-id="h-We_need_to_fix_the_admin_recall_process-20241119204000">We need to fix the admin recall process</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: We need to fix the admin recall process">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> Right now only "recall" votes count, and those opposing recall don't count for anything, nor do any points made in the discussion. So 25 quick group-think / mob thumbs-down votes and even be best admmin can get booted. And the best (= the most active) are the ones most likely to get booted. An admin that does near zero will get zero votes to recall. And with a single regular RFA currently the only way back in (which we've seen, very few want to go through) "booted" is "booted". The fix would be to have a discussion period pror to voting, with both "recall" and "don't recall" choices. And then say that the recall has occurred (thus requiring rfa) if over 50% or 60% of those voting said "recall". Sincerely, North8000 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:North8000#top" title="User talk:North8000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-North8000-20241119204000-We_need_to_fix_the_admin_recall_process" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:North8000" title="User:North8000">North8000</a> Please see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrator_recall/Reworkshop" title="Wikipedia:Administrator recall/Reworkshop">Wikipedia:Administrator recall/Reworkshop</a>, where editors are already discussing potential changes. <a href="/wiki/User:Samwalton9" title="User:Samwalton9">Sam Walton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Samwalton9" title="User talk:Samwalton9">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Samwalton9-20241119204300-North8000-20241119204000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:43, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Thanks. I looked for something like that but I guess I didn't look hard enough. I hope others look harder than me. :-) North8000 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:North8000#top" title="User talk:North8000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-North8000-20241119215800-Samwalton9-20241119204300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:58, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>I don't think you understand how recall works. An admin is only desysopped after the RRFA, not after the 25 signatures, unless they choose to resign on their own. You're asking to hold a vote on whether or not a vote should be held. ~~ <a href="/wiki/User:Jessintime" title="User:Jessintime">Jessintime</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jessintime" title="User talk:Jessintime">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Jessintime-20241119205500-North8000-20241119204000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:55, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Yes, I understood that and that is integrated into my comment above. Unless they go through and succeed at an RFA they are gone. North8000 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:North8000#top" title="User talk:North8000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-North8000-20241119215400-Jessintime-20241119205500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:54, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>I've never heard of a petition that lets people sign because they don't support it. And I'll add that between the two recall petitions that were enacted to this point, both were preceded by many, many attempts to get the admin to correct course over the years despite egregious misconduct. <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thebiguglyalien-20241119210300-North8000-20241119204000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:03, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I'm not talking about any particular cases. Sincerely, North8000 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:North8000#top" title="User talk:North8000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-North8000-20241119215600-Thebiguglyalien-20241119210300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>So, the premise of your argument is pure conjecture? Regards, <a href="/wiki/User:Goldsztajn" title="User:Goldsztajn">Goldsztajn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Goldsztajn" title="User talk:Goldsztajn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Goldsztajn-20241119220500-North8000-20241119215600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>???? It was from an analysis of it's current structure. North8000 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:North8000#top" title="User talk:North8000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-North8000-20241120141000-Goldsztajn-20241119220500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:10, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>But you've just refused to engage in a discussion with how the structure has actually worked in practice; hence, conjecture. Regards, <a href="/wiki/User:Goldsztajn" title="User:Goldsztajn">Goldsztajn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Goldsztajn" title="User talk:Goldsztajn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Goldsztajn-20241121001900-North8000-20241120141000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:19, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>The process at the moment does have a certain level of redundancy, with the recall and reconfirmation RFA being separate things. The reconfirmation RFA is even a standard RFA, as it has different criteria for success.</dd> <dd>I'm not sure if anything should be done yet, as it's still very early in its adoption. However if the situation occurs that a petition is successful but the reconfirmation RFA SNOWs, it could indicate that adjustments needs to be made so that community time isn't wasted. That speculative at the moment though. -- LCU <a href="/wiki/User:ActivelyDisinterested" title="User:ActivelyDisinterested">ActivelyDisinterested</a> «<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ActivelyDisinterested" title="User talk:ActivelyDisinterested">@</a>» °<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested" title="Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested">∆t</a>° <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-ActivelyDisinterested-20241119235300-North8000-20241119204000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>The recall petition threshold is not the recall discussion - it is just a check to prevent the most frivolous recall discussions from being held. — <a href="/wiki/User:Xaosflux" title="User:Xaosflux">xaosflux</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Xaosflux" title="User talk:Xaosflux">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Xaosflux-20241120005600-North8000-20241119204000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>+1 <a href="/wiki/User:Goldsztajn" title="User:Goldsztajn">Goldsztajn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Goldsztajn" title="User talk:Goldsztajn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Goldsztajn-20241120065400-Xaosflux-20241120005600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>The optics of this look alltogether terrible from my observation. I don't edit much, but I like reading a lot. Every criticism of the recall process i've seen so far just looks like old established admins thinking they might be next and having anxiety about that.</dd> <dd>The problem of something like this is that the optics are terrible. If anyone who doesn't know you reads that, the conclusion they will draw will likely not be "this recall process is terrible" and more likely go along the lines of "wow this is a lot of admins who don't have the community's trust anymore and want to dodge accountability".</dd> <dd>By being so vocally against any form of community led accountability, you're strenghtening the case for easy recalls and low thresholds, not weakening it.</dd> <dd>Specifically regarding Fastily, I'll make no comment on whether or not he deserves to still be an admin or not, I don't know him well enough for that and haven't reviewed enough of his contributions, but the arguments of "ANI agreed that no sanctions were appropriate" sound a lot like "our police department has investigated itself and found nothing was wrong". You have to see how this comes across, it's eroding trust in Admins on the whole project right now. <a href="/wiki/User:Magischzwei" title="User:Magischzwei">Magisch</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Magischzwei" title="User talk:Magischzwei">talk to me</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Magischzwei-20241120092400-North8000-20241119204000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Specifically, if RFA is so toxic that nobody wants to do it, that needs to be reformed. But the recent amount of vitriol towards a process that only kickstarts having to prove that you retain community trust has me convinced that there should be automatic mandatory RRFAs for every admin every 2 years or so.</dd> <dd>If, as of today, you don't believe the community would entrust you with admin tools, why do you think you should still have them? The criteria for losing them should not be "has clearly abused them", it should be "wouldn't be trusted with them if asked today". <a href="/wiki/User:Magischzwei" title="User:Magischzwei">Magisch</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Magischzwei" title="User talk:Magischzwei">talk to me</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Magischzwei-20241120093300-Magischzwei-20241120092400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>As an admin actively working to improve the recall process, my goal is to make it as fair as possible to all parties. That means it should not be possible to subject an admin to the process frivolously while equally making it possible to recall administrators who have lost the trust of the community, and it needs to be as non-toxic as possible, because even administrators who are actively abusing their tools are people and nobody deserves 1-2 months of abuse. It's also incorrect to describe ANI as a police department investigating itself - everybody engaging in good faith is welcome to comment there, regardless of whether they are an admin or not. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241120111500-Magischzwei-20241120093300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> It's the Administrator's Noticeboard, naturally the vast majority of participants will be either admins or people who are involved in the same work.</dd> <dd>I don't think asking an admin to confirm they still retain the trust of the community (the whole basis of giving out admin tools to begin with) is ever really frivolous. The current process allows that at most once a year. If an admin had to stand for RFA every year, that might be a bit too much long term, but really, if any admin thinks they would not pass RRFA today, why should they retain their tools.</dd> <dd>Also, the sheer optics of it being mostly (from what i've seen) established admins calling this process toxic are terrible. Anyone who doesn't know anything about this process will see this as some kind of thin blue line mentality in the admin corps - and might conclude that it is time to desysop the majority of old admins to dissolve the clique.</dd> <dd>I wouldn't be surprised if we see a bunch of recall petitions for the most vocal critics of this process. <a href="/wiki/User:Magischzwei" title="User:Magischzwei">Magisch</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Magischzwei" title="User talk:Magischzwei">talk to me</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Magischzwei-20241120112700-Thryduulf-20241120111500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I have no horse in this race, except that I regret not seeing the RFA earlier so I could have voted Support, sorry about that.</dd> <dd>But if your argument is optics, then having a bunch of recall petitions for the people who most vocally expressed a valid opinion on an evolving policy is absolutely awful optics. At best. <a href="/wiki/User:Gnomingstuff" title="User:Gnomingstuff">Gnomingstuff</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gnomingstuff" title="User talk:Gnomingstuff">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Gnomingstuff-20241122013300-Magischzwei-20241120112700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>I took the stats from the first RRfA to test this theory:</dd></dl></dd></dl> <table class="wikitable" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; border: none;"> <caption>1st RRfA votes </caption> <tbody><tr> <th> </th> <th>Support </th> <th>Oppose </th> <th>Total </th></tr> <tr> <th>Administrators </th> <td>48 </td> <td>29 </td> <td>77 </td></tr> <tr> <th>Non-admins </th> <td>71 </td> <td>116 </td> <td>187 </td></tr> <tr> <th>Total </th> <td> 119 </td> <td>145 </td> <td>264 </td></tr></tbody></table> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Administrators made up 29% of the voters. If being an admin doesn't influence anyone's vote, then we can expect admins to make up roughly 29% of the supporters and 29% of the opposers. But this didn't happen. In the final results, administrators made up 40% of the supporters and 20% of the opposers. We can also look at the individual odds of supporting/opposing depending on user rights. It ended at 45% support, so you'd expect admins to have a 45% chance of supporting and a 55% chance of opposing. But this also didn't happen. If you choose any admin at random, they had a 62% chance of supporting and a 38% chance of opposing (ignoring neutrals). Non-admins were the opposite: they had a 38% chance of supporting and a 62% chance of opposing.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>So our next question should be why it was so much more likely for an admin to support the RRfA relative to a non-admin. The obvious answer is of course as you said: admins have a perverse incentive to support here, especially if they're not-so-great admins who know they probably don't have the trust of the community anymore. Also suggested during the RRfA is the comradery that comes from working alongside a fellow admin for so long. I'd be interested in seeing how account age affects likelihood of supporting, but that's not something that can be counted up in a few minutes like admin status. <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thebiguglyalien-20241120174800-Magischzwei-20241120092400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I believe it may be centered on the idea that we all make mistakes, and many of us like to think we'd be given a chance to grow and learn from said mistake, instead of being forced through the RfA process again. But I recognize I may be being overly optimistic on that, and that others may not have the same thoughts on the matter that I do. Many admins I've spoken to would simply choose to give up their tools as opposed to go through an RfA again, something I've also considered despite my relatively smooth RfA. I'm also not sure Graham is the best representation of that. I voted support, recognizing that Graham87 has made mistakes, but also recognizing the significant contributions they've made and their pledge to do better. Bluntly, I did so expecting the vote to fail, and wanting to show some moral support and appreciation for their work. There's certainly a psychological aspect involved in it, but I don't think that, generally speaking, those of us who voted support or have issues with the current process are doing so out of self preservation.</dd> <dd>There's a lot of numbers that could be analyzed, such as the history of those admins who vote at RfA (whether they often vote support or don't vote at all), but it's hard to draw meaningful conclusions from this small of a dataset. <a href="/wiki/User:Hey_man_im_josh" title="User:Hey man im josh">Hey man im josh</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hey_man_im_josh" title="User talk:Hey man im josh">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Hey_man_im_josh-20241120191400-Thebiguglyalien-20241120174800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:14, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>On paper, I get that. The thing is, I don't know whether you saw <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Graham87_2#c-Levivich-20241117223500-Oppose">Levivich's comment</a> or <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Graham87_2#c-Bradv-20241120021000-Oppose">bradv's comment</a>, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a less appropriate time to test the "chance to grow" theory than the absolutely deplorable behavior that we saw from Graham for many years with far too many chances to improve. If it were down to me, this should have been a block in 2023 rather than a desysop in 2024. <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thebiguglyalien-20241120193200-Hey_man_im_josh-20241120191400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:32, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>I'm late to the discussion, but I think it's also worth pointing that only 7 of the 25 users who signed Graham87's petition and 2 of the 25 on Fastily's were admins. ~~ <a href="/wiki/User:Jessintime" title="User:Jessintime">Jessintime</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jessintime" title="User talk:Jessintime">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Jessintime-20241123131600-Thebiguglyalien-20241120174800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>I would add that there is a potential wrinkle in this analysis. I'm an extended-confirmed user here (and thus would likely be counted as a non-admin), but I am a sysop on Commons so I would have my own perspective on the matter. <a href="/wiki/User:Abzeronow" title="User:Abzeronow">Abzeronow</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abzeronow" title="User talk:Abzeronow">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Abzeronow-20241122210600-Magischzwei-20241120092400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:06, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd>Well, I'm not an admin and I started this thread. I'm all for having an admin recall process by the community in place. I'm also also for a process for course correction by the community in areas where and admin has drifted off course but where the problem is fixable. Administrative Action Review has the potential to become this but that has been stymied by various things. Sincerely, North8000 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:North8000#top" title="User talk:North8000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-North8000-20241120142400-North8000-20241119204000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I think, fundamentally, the problem is that admins have a direct and concrete conflict of interest in this discussion. Of course an admin would be naturally opposed to more mechanisms that might make them lose their permissions, especially since desysops are very rare at the moment.</dd> <dd>I also don't really agree that the current recall process is all that toxic. You could get rid of the discussion section, as the recall is only a petition, not a consensus discussion, but that's about it. <a href="/wiki/User:Magischzwei" title="User:Magischzwei">Magisch</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Magischzwei" title="User talk:Magischzwei">talk to me</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Magischzwei-20241120183300-North8000-20241120142400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Of course an admin would be naturally opposed to more mechanisms that might make them lose their permissions</q> – I wholeheartedly disagree with this assertion. There's a number of us that fully support a recall process, including quite a few people who have historically been open to recalls. This is an over simplification of the motives of a large group of experienced editors, many of which have legitimate and reasonable concerns about the process in its current form. <a href="/wiki/User:Hey_man_im_josh" title="User:Hey man im josh">Hey man im josh</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hey_man_im_josh" title="User talk:Hey man im josh">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Hey_man_im_josh-20241120191500-Magischzwei-20241120183300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Substantially all criticism i've seen so far of the process have boiled down to "RFA is abusive and it's unreasonable to make people go through that again". And yet, instead of attempting to change that, the only suggestions seem to be to support older admin's rights to have their permissions continue being grandfathered in. <a href="/wiki/User:Magischzwei" title="User:Magischzwei">Magisch</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Magischzwei" title="User talk:Magischzwei">talk to me</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Magischzwei-20241120192700-Hey_man_im_josh-20241120191500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I'm sorry that that's all you've taken away from the vast amounts of criticism given by people. Perhaps consider focusing on whether the process, in its current state, makes sense instead of focusing on older admins. I'm a relatively new admin and I don't support the current iteration of the process. <a href="/wiki/User:Hey_man_im_josh" title="User:Hey man im josh">Hey man im josh</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hey_man_im_josh" title="User talk:Hey man im josh">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Hey_man_im_josh-20241120193000-Magischzwei-20241120192700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:30, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I think it's eminently sensible to have adminship not be a lifetime appointment, both by the fact that norms change even when people dont, and that I see people in every RFA expressing reluctance over granting lifetime tools. I also think that assuming RFA isn't a big deal regular reconfirmations make sense. IFF RFA is a big deal, then the focus should be on fixing that.</dd> <dd>It seems to me that existing admins being immune to having to suffer RFA again has created a lack of pressure to actually make it into a functional, nontoxic process.</dd> <dd>Take my opinion for what it's worth though. I'm not an admin nor do I foresee myself ever having aspirations to become one. <a href="/wiki/User:Magischzwei" title="User:Magischzwei">Magisch</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Magischzwei" title="User talk:Magischzwei">talk to me</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Magischzwei-20241120194300-Hey_man_im_josh-20241120193000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:43, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Attempting to improve RFA is a very hard problem that people have been working on since before you joined Wikipedia, and are still working on it. I would also say that <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">it is unreasonable to make people go through that again</q> is a mischaracterisation of the views expressed, which are <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">it is unreasonable to make people go through that again unnecessarily</q>, which is significantly different. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241120193100-Magischzwei-20241120192700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I just found out about this discussion, and it looks to me like the same or similar things are being discussed in way too many different places. Anyway, I'm someone who has stated repeatedly and strongly in multiple places that I think the recall process is a disaster, and is beyond repair. And, contra some statements above, here are some other facts about me. I'm not an admin. I opposed Graham's re-RfA. And I played a central role in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CDARFC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CDARFC">WP:CDARFC</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Tryptofish" title="User:Tryptofish">Tryptofish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tryptofish" title="User talk:Tryptofish">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Tryptofish-20241120201200-Thryduulf-20241120193100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>I would be against it for a different reason: if we allow both supports and opposes, then the recall petition becomes a mini-RfA with the same amount of pressure as the RRfA itself (especially since, given the identical threshold, the recall's result would be indicative of the RRfA's subsequent result). Since anyone can start the recall petition, it functionally means that anyone can force an admin to re-RfA, which is clearly worse. On the other hand, having a set number of supports needed provides for a "thresholding" of who can open a RRfA, while not necessarily being as stressful. If anything, I would say the recall should become more petition-like (and thus less stressful for the recalled admin), rather than more RfA-like. <a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby">Chaotic Enby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chaotic_Enby" title="User talk:Chaotic Enby">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chaotic_Enby" title="Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241120200100-North8000-20241119204000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:01, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> <dl><dd>The ones most likely to be booted are bad admins who are abusive toward the editor community and who negatively represent themselves as admins. Both of the recalls thus far were just exact examples of that and worked perfectly as designed and needed. The process worked exactly as desired and removed bad admins who deserved to be desysopped. Though I do think the discussion section of the petitions should be more regulated. Discussion should be about the admin's actions and conduct and nothing else. Any extraneous commentary should be removed. <a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren">Silver</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Silver_seren" title="User talk:Silver seren">seren</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Silver_seren" title="Special:Contributions/Silver seren">C</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Silver_seren-20241121002300-North8000-20241119204000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>When I first started editing Wikipedia almost 20 years ago, I was struck by what, to me at least, appeared to be widespread incivility. Among a number of things which have changed for the better IMHO is an all round expectation that everyone's standards of behaviour should rise (and they have). The admin role breeds a certain "culture" (for lack of a better term) akin to a conservationist, the role is to "protect" Wikipedia from "harm" and I can certainly see why being an admin could be a deeply frustrating experience. However, what has happened, I think, in the attrition of the admin corps, and the turnover in the non-admin corps, is that the generalised culture of "regular" non-admin editors has moved further forward towards less acceptance of a culture prevalent 10-15 years ago. I think also the rise in editors from non-English speaking backgrounds and from the Global South has caused complexities for those with limited experience outside the anglosphere. The statistics above on the vote for G87's RRFA show an interesting split between admins and non-admins, and within admins. Non-admins were almost overwhelmingly (close to 2/3) of the view that G87 had been given an almost exceptionaly long period to improve, had not, and no longer held their trust. 5/8s of admins, appeared (and comments here also seem to confirm this) split between solidarity for one of their own and displeasure with the recall process. 3/8s admins were in alignment with the majority of non-admins. FWIW, I'm not trying to point to some grand schism; A 38/62 admin split on these numbers is not that profound - if just 9 admins had changed their vote from support to oppose it would have been a 50/50 split. To reiterate, I'm not suggesting that there is a great gap between admins and non-admins, but there does appear to be some gap when it comes to generalised views around the expected behaviour of admins. Regards, <a href="/wiki/User:Goldsztajn" title="User:Goldsztajn">Goldsztajn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Goldsztajn" title="User talk:Goldsztajn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Goldsztajn-20241121010100-Silver_seren-20241121002300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Maybe the divide is not between admins and non-admins but between newer and longer-serving editors (who are more likely to be admins)? <a href="/wiki/User:Hawkeye7" title="User:Hawkeye7">Hawkeye7</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hawkeye7" title="User talk:Hawkeye7">(discuss)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Hawkeye7-20241121012000-Goldsztajn-20241121010100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I don't disagree, and in effect I was sort of saying the same thing in terms of the attrition of the admin corps and turnover in non-admin corps. FWIW, I do think there are some generalised feelings about admins among non-admins; for example, admins are less likely to face sanction than non-admins. How true that actually is I'm not sure and the point would be that a group of people already tested in commnuity trust (ie RFA) are less likely to breach that trust. However, comments in the G87 RRFA and the strength of the vote suggest there are (wrongly or rightly) widely felt perceptions of disparity. Regards, <a href="/wiki/User:Goldsztajn" title="User:Goldsztajn">Goldsztajn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Goldsztajn" title="User talk:Goldsztajn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Goldsztajn-20241121015300-Hawkeye7-20241121012000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:53, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>I'm currently compiling the data to get some statistics about voters in Graham's re-RFA. I'm a bit less than halfway through so it might be a couple of days before I can present any results. However among the first 113 support voters the maximum account age (on the day the re-RFA started) was 7919 days (21 years), the minimum was 212 days and the average was 4785 days (13 years). I have no data yet for neutral or oppose voters so cannot say how that compares. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241121020300-Hawkeye7-20241121012000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Do you have a handy list of all voters for RFA? It should be simple enough to use a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:QUARRY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:QUARRY">WP:QUARRY</a> to find out all details about the voters if someone finds an easy enough scrape of who each user is <a href="/wiki/User:Soni" title="User:Soni">Soni</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Soni" title="User talk:Soni">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Soni-20241121055100-Thryduulf-20241121020300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:51, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Soni" title="User:Soni">Soni</a>: <a class="external autonumber" href="https://apersonbot.toolforge.org/vote-history/?page=Wikipedia%3ARequests%20for%20adminship%2FGraham87%202">[2]</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Levivich-20241121070900-Soni-20241121055100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Here's the Quarry query editcount/registration date for <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://quarry.wmcloud.org/query/88070">Supports</a>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://quarry.wmcloud.org/query/88072">Neutrals</a>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://quarry.wmcloud.org/query/88073">Opposes</a>.</dd> <dd>I think about 6 editors were missed by the tool you linked, but it should not change overall patterns much so we can just use this as is. <a href="/wiki/User:Soni" title="User:Soni">Soni</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Soni" title="User talk:Soni">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Soni-20241121072400-Levivich-20241121070900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:24, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Prepare to not be surprised. Supporters/Opposers: <ul><li>Median registration date 2008/2014 <-- Behold, Wikipedia's generational shift</li> <li>Average registration date: 2011/2014</li> <li>Median edit count: 40,293/17,363</li> <li>Average edit count: 76,125/43,683</li></ul></dd> <dd>Thanks for doing the quarry. Teamwork makes the dream work! <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Levivich-20241122051700-Soni-20241121072400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:17, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>At a quick glance, it seemed like editors with more edits were more likely to support while editors with fewer edits (with one exception) were more likely to oppose. - <a href="/wiki/User:Enos733" title="User:Enos733">Enos733</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Enos733" title="User talk:Enos733">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Enos733-20241121075400-Thryduulf-20241121020300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Given a single admin action may involve multiple edits, it's not so surprising the supporters' list possibly reflects a group with higher edit counts. Personally, I'd be more inclined to draw conclusions from length of registration rather than edit count. Regards, <a href="/wiki/User:Goldsztajn" title="User:Goldsztajn">Goldsztajn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Goldsztajn" title="User talk:Goldsztajn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Goldsztajn-20241121091100-Enos733-20241121075400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:11, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>my very, very rapid count - supports 35/117 (30%) less than 10 years old, opposes 67/141 (48%) less than 10 years old. In absolute numbers, 10+ year accounts were 82 supports, 74 opposes - actually quite even. What was crucial was younger accounts. It does confirm my sense of gaps between "older" and "younger" generations in regard to perceptions of tolerable admin behaviour. Regards, <a href="/wiki/User:Goldsztajn" title="User:Goldsztajn">Goldsztajn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Goldsztajn" title="User talk:Goldsztajn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Goldsztajn-20241121095000-Goldsztajn-20241121091100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> We have had two recalls as of now. The people signing the recall were by and large not trolls, vandals, people blocked by that admin, ... but regular editors in good standing and without a grudge. One of these recalls has been supported by the RRFA afterwards, and the other admin decided not to go for a RRFA. There is zero evidence that the process is flawed or leads to results not wanted by the community at large. While minor issues need working out (things like "should it be closed immediately the moment it reaches 25 votes or not"), the basic principles and method have so far not produced any reason to fundamentally "fix" the issue. That the process highlights a gap between parts of the community (see e.g. the Graham RRFA) doesn't mean that the process needs fixing. The process only would need fundamental fixing if we would get successful recalls which would then be overwhelmingly reversed at RRFA, showing that the recall was frivolous, malicious, way too easy... Not now though. <a href="/wiki/User:Fram" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Fram">Fram</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fram" title="User talk:Fram">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Fram-20241122092400-We_need_to_fix_the_admin_recall_process" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:24, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I agree with Fram. There is not any evidence that the recall process is reaching outcomes that are not supported by the Community (I voted Oppose on the Graham RRFA; I don't know how I would have voted on a Fastily RRFA). Small fixes to the process if supported would not be indicative of the process itself being fundamentally flawed. <a href="/wiki/User:Abzeronow" title="User:Abzeronow">Abzeronow</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abzeronow" title="User talk:Abzeronow">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Abzeronow-20241122211500-Fram-20241122092400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>I agree that it just needs fixes.North8000 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:North8000#top" title="User talk:North8000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-North8000-20241123152400-Fram-20241122092400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> I believe that desysoppings for cause should only happen when there is objective evidence of misconduct. My main concern about the recall process is that it may be wielded against administrators who are willing to take actions that are controversial, yet necessary. Examples of actions that have got administrators hounded include (1) closing contentious and politically charged AFD discussions; (2) blocking an "<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNBLOCKABLE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNBLOCKABLE">WP:UNBLOCKABLE</a>" editor who is being disruptive or making personal attacks; (3) stepping up to protect a politically charged article to stop an edit war. None of these actions are administrator misconduct, but in a heated dispute the side that has an admin rule in their disfavor may quickly resort to punishing said administrator by starting a recall petition, and in a dispute involving many editors, getting to 25 may be easy. Even if that petition fails, it is so unpleasant that it may have a chilling effect on admin involvement even when needed. <a href="/wiki/User:Sjakkalle" title="User:Sjakkalle">Sjakkalle</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sjakkalle" title="User talk:Sjakkalle">(Check!)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Sjakkalle-20241123211400-We_need_to_fix_the_admin_recall_process" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>In which case, a RRFA might be overwhelmingly in favor of the administrator and thus vindicate the administrator. I would definitely vote in support of an administrator if those any of those three were the impetus behind a recall. I also trust our editors, and so far, the recall process has worked as intended. <a href="/wiki/User:Abzeronow" title="User:Abzeronow">Abzeronow</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Abzeronow" title="User talk:Abzeronow">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Abzeronow-20241123215000-Sjakkalle-20241123211400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>ArbCom have to face re-election. Does that have a chilling effect on the arbitrators? <a href="/wiki/User:Hawkeye7" title="User:Hawkeye7">Hawkeye7</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hawkeye7" title="User talk:Hawkeye7">(discuss)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Hawkeye7-20241123214800-Sjakkalle-20241123211400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>That's a facile argument. Arbitrators are well aware that they are standing for a fixed term period. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Black_Kite" title="User talk:Black Kite">Black Kite (talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Black_Kite-20241123215000-Hawkeye7-20241123214800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>It's driving me up the wall that people keep saying that the process has worked as intended. Come back and tell me that, after you can link to an RRfA for Fastily that resulted in whatever result you define as working as intended. --<a href="/wiki/User:Tryptofish" title="User:Tryptofish">Tryptofish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tryptofish" title="User talk:Tryptofish">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Tryptofish-20241123220100-Hawkeye7-20241123214800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Choosing not to do an RRfA was their own choice, particularly if Fastily thought it wouldn't be successful. It was also their choice to make no attempt whatsoever to defend the reams of evidence presented against them in the recall petition of their negative actions toward the editing community. So, yes, Fastily as well was an example of the process working as intended. <a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren">Silver</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Silver_seren" title="User talk:Silver seren">seren</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Silver_seren" title="Special:Contributions/Silver seren">C</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Silver_seren-20241123220800-Tryptofish-20241123220100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Or perhaps they just thought "well, I've put XX years into this and a load of random people with rationales ranging from reasonable to utterly non-existent have told me I'm not fit to do it, so f*** you". If that's the case, I don't blame them. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Black_Kite" title="User talk:Black Kite">Black Kite (talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Black_Kite-20241123221300-Silver_seren-20241123220800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Maybe, maybe not. Probably not though right? Seems kind of silly. <a href="/wiki/User:PackMecEng" title="User:PackMecEng">PackMecEng</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PackMecEng" title="User talk:PackMecEng">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-PackMecEng-20241123221700-Black_Kite-20241123221300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I suspect that might be my reaction, to be honest. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Black_Kite" title="User talk:Black Kite">Black Kite (talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Black_Kite-20241123222400-PackMecEng-20241123221700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>He was going to lose if he didn't apologize, and he didn't want to apologize. That simple. As others have said, that was his choice to make, and I respect it. <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Levivich-20241123222800-Black_Kite-20241123222400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Except that he did apologize, although there were differing views of whether that apology was enough. This oversimplification is what's wrong with the way discussions happen in this process. --<a href="/wiki/User:Tryptofish" title="User:Tryptofish">Tryptofish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tryptofish" title="User talk:Tryptofish">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Tryptofish-20241123223400-Levivich-20241123222800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:34, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>He woulda had to apologize more, then, including for the stuff that came out during the petition, and any other stuff that may have come out during the RRfA. He woulda had to answer questions about it, make promises, etc., basically go through what Graham went through, and realize that even that (answering questions, making promises) might not be enough (as it wasn't for Graham). It's not at all irrational for someone to choose not go through that. Being an admin isn't worth all that to some (e.g., to me), especially if you might not get it despite your best efforts. <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Levivich-20241123224400-Tryptofish-20241123223400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:44, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>"Someone decided that it just isn't worth it" does not equal "the process worked". --<a href="/wiki/User:Tryptofish" title="User:Tryptofish">Tryptofish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tryptofish" title="User talk:Tryptofish">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Tryptofish-20241123224700-Levivich-20241123224400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>No, those two things are not the same. If you want to know why I think the process worked, it's because it stopped disruption, did it faster than Arbcom, and I think with less drama (though admittedly the third one is purely subjective and speculative). <a href="/wiki/User:Levivich" title="User:Levivich">Levivich</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Levivich" title="User talk:Levivich">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Levivich-20241123225600-Tryptofish-20241123224700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Um, thanks for sharing? --<a href="/wiki/User:Tryptofish" title="User:Tryptofish">Tryptofish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tryptofish" title="User talk:Tryptofish">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Tryptofish-20241123230600-Levivich-20241123225600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>On the petition page, I conducted a careful analysis of the evidence. Nobody refuted what I said there. --<a href="/wiki/User:Tryptofish" title="User:Tryptofish">Tryptofish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tryptofish" title="User talk:Tryptofish">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Tryptofish-20241123221500-Silver_seren-20241123220800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:15, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="the_REGIME_test" data-mw-thread-id="h-the_REGIME_test-20241120040300">the REGIME test</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: the REGIME test">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <ul><li>That any news outlet or source that refers to a government as a "regime" be considered not reliable for facts about that regime, except for attributed statements.</li> <li>That a list be kept and updated, similar to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS/Perennial_sources" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS/Perennial sources">WP:RS/Perennial sources</a></li></ul> <a href="/wiki/User:Skullers" title="User:Skullers">Skullers</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Skullers" title="User talk:Skullers">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Skullers-20241120040300-the_REGIME_test" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Why do we want to only use sources that haven't noticed that a regime is a regime? -- <a href="/wiki/User:NatGertler" title="User:NatGertler">Nat Gertler</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NatGertler" title="User talk:NatGertler">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-NatGertler-20241120040900-Skullers-20241120040300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>This would, for example, rule out using a significant proportion of reliable sources covering contemporary North Korea, Afghanistan, Cuba and Iran as well as countless historical governments (e.g. Saddam Hussein's Iraq, Franco's Spain, Gaddafi's Libya, etc). This is clearly hasn't been fully thought through. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241120041700-Skullers-20241120040300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:17, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Well, it might have been thought through if the idea is to exclude sources critical of said regimes, eg <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg0qz157yyo">Activist takes own life in protest at Iranian regime</a> (BBC). Regards, <a href="/wiki/User:Goldsztajn" title="User:Goldsztajn">Goldsztajn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Goldsztajn" title="User talk:Goldsztajn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Goldsztajn-20241120065700-Thryduulf-20241120041700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:57, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>That would be a gratuitous failure of NPOV. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Thryduulf-20241120110400-Goldsztajn-20241120065700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>In heated agreement. Regards, <a href="/wiki/User:Goldsztajn" title="User:Goldsztajn">Goldsztajn</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Goldsztajn" title="User talk:Goldsztajn">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Goldsztajn-20241121015700-Thryduulf-20241120110400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Bad idea. A biased source does not mean unreliable. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BIASED" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BIASED">WP:BIASED</a>. However, it is indeed good indicator that a in-text attribution may be needed. <a href="/wiki/User:Ca" title="User:Ca">Ca</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ca" title="User talk:Ca">talk to me!</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Ca-20241120150000-Skullers-20241120040300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I think this does get at something which is a problem in Wikipedia. It just doesn't quite hit the mark. And that is that there is a core assumption in Wikipedia's handling of news media sources that they are largely independent and that a deviation from editorial independence represents a deviation from best practices. However this often leads to Wikipedia simply assuming the biases of the New York Times and other major media outlets. But there has been an accumulation of multitudinous issues - one of the most recent being accounts of Jeff Bezos influencing the Washington Post to withhold an endorsement of Kamala Harris - that demonstrate that the idea of editorial independence is frankly quaint.</dd> <dd> </dd> <dd>This, of course, then creates problems with adjudicating those sources that have previously been demonstrated to be non-independent (see for example <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:XINHUA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:XINHUA">WP:XINHUA</a>) as the rationale on Wikipedia for treating Xinhua differently from, let's say, the BBC or Al Jazeera for that matter largely depends upon the assumption of independence of those outlets that are not aligned with enemy states of the US/UK hegemony.</dd> <dd> </dd> <dd>My personal opinion is that the use of news sources on an encyclopedia should be far more limited than it presently is as, in my case, it's not that I trust Xinhua (I don't) but that I don't trust any media outlet to produce material appropriate for a neutral encyclopedia. I don't think a "regime" test is going to improve the quality of pages that over-rely on news media. But I would suggest that it's another indication that Wikipedia needs to be far more critical of what news sources we depend on and in what contexts. <a href="/wiki/User:Simonm223" title="User:Simonm223">Simonm223</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simonm223" title="User talk:Simonm223">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Simonm223-20241120195400-Ca-20241120150000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>No, editorial independence is not the reason for a source being considered reliable or not. Many sources are biased, or influenced by specific governments/interest groups, and are still considered reliable for topics other than the groups influencing them (in which case, by definition, they would not be an <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Independent_sources" title="Wikipedia:Independent sources">independent source</a>). A history of disinformation (actually making up stuff, not just reporting it in a biased way) pushes the source towards being considered unreliable.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:XINHUA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:XINHUA">WP:XINHUA</a>, which you link, demonstrates this clearly, stating <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">There is consensus that Xinhua is generally reliable for factual reporting except in areas where the government of China may have a reason to use it for propaganda or disinformation.</q> In the same way, we shouldn't rely on the Washington Post for topics related to Jeff Bezos. <a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby">Chaotic Enby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chaotic_Enby" title="User talk:Chaotic Enby">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chaotic_Enby" title="Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241120200700-Simonm223-20241120195400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>The example I gave wasn't one of a story about Jeff Bezos or a topic related to Jeff Bezos unless one contends (which, I will grant there's a case to be made) that anything to do with a US election is ultimately about the interests of the Billionaire class. But, you see, that's my point. Pretty much any media outlet will distort truth, spread disinformation or, at the most basic, bury stories that aren't to the interests of their handlers. And I do want to stress that the stories that are not covered is a key method through which media occludes truth. The only real question is whether the handler is a politbureau or a rich guy. I don't think one of those is better than the other. <a href="/wiki/User:Simonm223" title="User:Simonm223">Simonm223</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simonm223" title="User talk:Simonm223">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Simonm223-20241120201200-Chaotic_Enby-20241120200700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>The fact that a news media is influenced to not publish a story makes it biased, but not unreliable. Having a point of view when reporting (or choosing not to report) stories is what every media does, and is different from outright making up disinformation. And that is the difference between bias and unreliability. It's not about who the handler is, <a href="/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch" title="Rupert Murdoch">rich guys</a> can also own unreliable news sources. <a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby">Chaotic Enby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chaotic_Enby" title="User talk:Chaotic Enby">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chaotic_Enby" title="Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241120201600-Simonm223-20241120201200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I mean we certainly agree about that rich guy. I just think Wikipedia is too fast to treat news sources as reliable out of convenience rather than any real confidence in the quality of information. <a href="/wiki/User:Simonm223" title="User:Simonm223">Simonm223</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simonm223" title="User talk:Simonm223">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Simonm223-20241120202000-Chaotic_Enby-20241120201600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I agree with <a href="/wiki/User:Simonm223" title="User:Simonm223">Simonm223</a>. I just can't understand why an encyclopedia should be largely based on news sources rather than peer-reviewed academic articles or books. For a start most of them are primary sources, by any definition other than Wikipedia's. This is dumbing-down at its worst. <a href="/wiki/User:Phil_Bridger" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Phil Bridger">Phil Bridger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phil_Bridger" title="User talk:Phil Bridger">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Phil_Bridger-20241120210900-Simonm223-20241120202000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Exactly, yes. <a href="/wiki/User:Simonm223" title="User:Simonm223">Simonm223</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simonm223" title="User talk:Simonm223">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Simonm223-20241120224200-Phil_Bridger-20241120210900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>I agree, out article on <a href="/wiki/Donald_Trump" title="Donald Trump">Donald Trump</a> and <a href="/wiki/Joe_Biden" title="Joe Biden">Joe Biden</a> for example would do better citing academic sources than news outlets. <a href="/wiki/User:Ca" title="User:Ca">Ca</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ca" title="User talk:Ca">talk to me!</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Ca-20241121022100-Simonm223-20241120202000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:21, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>See <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/regime">the definition (specifically 2(c) and 2(d))</a>. Regime is a synonym for "administration" or "government" (when used to describe, as example, the Biden administration or the Tory government). It makes zero sense whatsoever to block sources who use a synonym for administration just because one person feels it has negative connotations. Wikipedia is not the place to practice redefining words or limiting their use based on their worst definitions or connotations. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | <a href="/wiki/User:Berchanhimez" title="User:Berchanhimez">me</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Berchanhimez" title="User talk:Berchanhimez">talk to me!</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Berchanhimez-20241121050300-Skullers-20241120040300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Prescriptivism is dead. See examples. There is zero percent usage in modern times that isn't derogatory; literally no one says unironically "our regime", "the regimes of our allies", or "regimes we'd like to do business with". <a href="/wiki/User:Skullers" title="User:Skullers">Skullers</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Skullers" title="User talk:Skullers">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Skullers-20241121082900-Berchanhimez-20241121050300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I agree in as much as "government" would always be a better term in any use case I can think of.</dd> <dd>However, your polemics here have been consistently superficial and unhelpful. It seems almost self-parody to aphorize "prescriptivism is dead" amid seeking to categorically deprecate sources based on the sole criterion of whether they use a particular word, citing what you feel is the only correct definition of said word in practice. <a href="/wiki/User:Remsense" title="User:Remsense">Remsense</a> ‥ <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Remsense" title="User talk:Remsense">论</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Remsense-20241121090300-Skullers-20241121082900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>The attraction of the word "regime" to headline writers is often that it is simply shorter than "government" or "administration", rather than anything to do with its connotations. <a href="/wiki/User:Phil_Bridger" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Phil Bridger">Phil Bridger</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phil_Bridger" title="User talk:Phil Bridger">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Phil_Bridger-20241121094800-Remsense-20241121090300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Exactly my point. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | <a href="/wiki/User:Berchanhimez" title="User:Berchanhimez">me</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Berchanhimez" title="User talk:Berchanhimez">talk to me!</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Berchanhimez-20241121232400-Phil_Bridger-20241121094800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:24, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>What is the rationale for this proposal? Is there a specific source or incident that prompted it? <a href="/wiki/User:Gnomingstuff" title="User:Gnomingstuff">Gnomingstuff</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gnomingstuff" title="User talk:Gnomingstuff">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-Gnomingstuff-20241122010900-Skullers-20241120040300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:09, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>While I understand the rationale for this proposal, IMO it goes way too far. I would agree that it's important to keep in mind when a source is using biased language and consider using in-text attribution in these cases, but certainly it's not worth a blanket ban.</dd> <dd>Furthermore, it's often the case that when the news media uses negative language about a topic, that's because that negative language is the consensus. For instance, nobody would really question the phrase "the Nazi regime" or even probably "the genocidal Nazi regime" from a reliable source, and for good reason. When everyone agrees on a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LABEL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LABEL">contentious label</a> that implies that in that specific case the label is not, in fact, contentious. <a href="/wiki/User:LokiTheLiar" title="User:LokiTheLiar">Loki</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LokiTheLiar" title="User talk:LokiTheLiar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#c-LokiTheLiar-20241122012100-Skullers-20241120040300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:21, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&oldid=1259206573">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&oldid=1259206573</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Category</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_village_pump" title="Category:Wikipedia village pump">Wikipedia village pump</a></li></ul></div><div id="mw-hidden-catlinks" class="mw-hidden-catlinks mw-hidden-cats-hidden">Hidden categories: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_move-protected_project_pages" title="Category:Wikipedia move-protected project pages">Wikipedia move-protected project pages</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Non-talk_pages_that_are_automatically_signed" title="Category:Non-talk pages that are automatically signed">Non-talk pages that are automatically signed</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Pages_automatically_checked_for_incorrect_links" title="Category:Pages automatically checked for incorrect links">Pages automatically checked for incorrect links</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 23 November 2024, at 23:12 (UTC).</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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