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Help talk:IPA/Spanish - Wikipedia

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<h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading mw-first-heading"><span class="mw-page-title-namespace">Help talk</span><span class="mw-page-title-separator">:</span><span class="mw-page-title-main">IPA/Spanish</span></h1> <div id="p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown mw-portlet mw-portlet-lang mw-portlet-lang-icon-only" > <input type="checkbox" id="p-lang-btn-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox mw-interlanguage-selector-empty" aria-label="This article exist only in this language. 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Sections older than <b>90 days</b> may be automatically archived by <span class="nowraplinks"><a href="/wiki/User:Lowercase_sigmabot_III" title="User:Lowercase sigmabot III">Lowercase sigmabot III</a></span> when more than 4 sections are present.</td></tr> </tbody></table> <p class="mw-empty-elt"> </p><p><br/> </p> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><!--__DTSUBSCRIBEBUTTONDESKTOP__{&quot;headingLevel&quot;:2,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;h-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300&quot;,&quot;type&quot;:&quot;heading&quot;,&quot;level&quot;:0,&quot;id&quot;:&quot;h-\u0263_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_\u0270_(Voiced_velar_approximate)-20230822161300&quot;,&quot;replies&quot;:[&quot;c-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300-\u0263_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_\u0270_(Voiced_velar_approximate)&quot;],&quot;text&quot;:&quot;\u0263 (Voiced velar fricative) links to \u0270 (Voiced velar approximate)&quot;,&quot;linkableTitle&quot;:&quot;\u0263 (Voiced velar fricative) links to \u0270 (Voiced velar approximate)&quot;}--><h2 id="ɣ_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_ɰ_(Voiced_velar_approximate)" data-mw-thread-id="h-ɣ_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_ɰ_(Voiced_velar_approximate)-20230822161300"><span id=".C9.A3_.28Voiced_velar_fricative.29_links_to_.C9.B0_.28Voiced_velar_approximate.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-ɣ_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_ɰ_(Voiced_velar_approximate)-20230822161300"></span>ɣ (Voiced velar fricative) links to ɰ (Voiced velar approximate)<span data-mw-comment-end="h-ɣ_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_ɰ_(Voiced_velar_approximate)-20230822161300"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Help_talk:IPA/Spanish&amp;action=edit&amp;section=1" title="Edit section: ɣ (Voiced velar fricative) links to ɰ (Voiced velar approximate)"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-\u0263_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_\u0270_(Voiced_velar_approximate)-20230822161300","replies":["c-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300-\u0263_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_\u0270_(Voiced_velar_approximate)"]}}--><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"><!--__DTLATESTCOMMENTTHREAD__{"id":"c-Nardog-20230822163200-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300","timestamp":"20230822163200"}__--><!--__DTCOMMENTCOUNT__2__--><!--__DTAUTHORCOUNT__2__--></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"><!--__DTSUBSCRIBEBUTTONMOBILE__{&quot;headingLevel&quot;:2,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;h-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300&quot;,&quot;type&quot;:&quot;heading&quot;,&quot;level&quot;:0,&quot;id&quot;:&quot;h-\u0263_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_\u0270_(Voiced_velar_approximate)-20230822161300&quot;,&quot;replies&quot;:[&quot;c-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300-\u0263_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_\u0270_(Voiced_velar_approximate)&quot;],&quot;text&quot;:&quot;\u0263 (Voiced velar fricative) links to \u0270 (Voiced velar approximate)&quot;,&quot;linkableTitle&quot;:&quot;\u0263 (Voiced velar fricative) links to \u0270 (Voiced velar approximate)&quot;}--></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300-ɣ_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_ɰ_(Voiced_velar_approximate)"></span>As says in the title. I am unfamiliar with how to properly edit Wikipedia pages, and the attempts to figure it out were unsuccessful. </p><p>Thank you to whoever fixes it! <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Neverbeentocincinatti&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Neverbeentocincinatti (page does not exist)">Neverbeentocincinatti</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Neverbeentocincinatti&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Neverbeentocincinatti (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300-ɣ_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_ɰ_(Voiced_velar_approximate)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300-ɣ_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_ɰ_(Voiced_velar_approximate)"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230822161300","author":"Neverbeentocincinatti","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300-\u0263_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_\u0270_(Voiced_velar_approximate)","replies":["c-Nardog-20230822163200-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300"]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300-ɣ_(Voiced_velar_fricative)_links_to_ɰ_(Voiced_velar_approximate)"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20230822163200-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300"></span>There's nothing to fix. [β, ð, ɣ, ʝ] are more commonly approximants so they link to the articles about the approximants. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-Nardog-20230822163200-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20230822163200-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230822163200","author":"Nardog","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Nardog-20230822163200-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300","replies":[]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20230822163200-Neverbeentocincinatti-20230822161300"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><!--__DTSUBSCRIBEBUTTONDESKTOP__{&quot;headingLevel&quot;:2,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;h-38.25.30.164-20240309190600&quot;,&quot;type&quot;:&quot;heading&quot;,&quot;level&quot;:0,&quot;id&quot;:&quot;h-Coda_realizations_of_\/p,_t,_k\/as_[\u03b2,_\u00f0,_\u0263]-20240309190600&quot;,&quot;replies&quot;:[&quot;c-38.25.30.164-20240309190600-Coda_realizations_of_\/p,_t,_k\/as_[\u03b2,_\u00f0,_\u0263]&quot;],&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Coda realizations of \/p, t, k\/as [\u03b2, \u00f0, \u0263]&quot;,&quot;linkableTitle&quot;:&quot;Coda realizations of \/p, t, k\/as [\u03b2, \u00f0, \u0263]&quot;}--><h2 id="Coda_realizations_of_/p,_t,_k/as_[β,_ð,_ɣ]" data-mw-thread-id="h-Coda_realizations_of_/p,_t,_k/as_[β,_ð,_ɣ]-20240309190600"><span id="Coda_realizations_of_.2Fp.2C_t.2C_k.2Fas_.5B.CE.B2.2C_.C3.B0.2C_.C9.A3.5D"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Coda_realizations_of_/p,_t,_k/as_[β,_ð,_ɣ]-20240309190600"></span>Coda realizations of /p, t, k/as [β, ð, ɣ]<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Coda_realizations_of_/p,_t,_k/as_[β,_ð,_ɣ]-20240309190600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Help_talk:IPA/Spanish&amp;action=edit&amp;section=2" title="Edit section: Coda realizations of /p, t, k/as [β, ð, ɣ]"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-38.25.30.164-20240309190600","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Coda_realizations_of_\/p,_t,_k\/as_[\u03b2,_\u00f0,_\u0263]-20240309190600","replies":["c-38.25.30.164-20240309190600-Coda_realizations_of_\/p,_t,_k\/as_[\u03b2,_\u00f0,_\u0263]"]}}--><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"><!--__DTLATESTCOMMENTTHREAD__{"id":"c-Nardog-20240310080200-38.25.30.164-20240309190600","timestamp":"20240310080200"}__--><!--__DTCOMMENTCOUNT__2__--><!--__DTAUTHORCOUNT__2__--></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"><!--__DTSUBSCRIBEBUTTONMOBILE__{&quot;headingLevel&quot;:2,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;h-38.25.30.164-20240309190600&quot;,&quot;type&quot;:&quot;heading&quot;,&quot;level&quot;:0,&quot;id&quot;:&quot;h-Coda_realizations_of_\/p,_t,_k\/as_[\u03b2,_\u00f0,_\u0263]-20240309190600&quot;,&quot;replies&quot;:[&quot;c-38.25.30.164-20240309190600-Coda_realizations_of_\/p,_t,_k\/as_[\u03b2,_\u00f0,_\u0263]&quot;],&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Coda realizations of \/p, t, k\/as [\u03b2, \u00f0, \u0263]&quot;,&quot;linkableTitle&quot;:&quot;Coda realizations of \/p, t, k\/as [\u03b2, \u00f0, \u0263]&quot;}--></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-38.25.30.164-20240309190600-Coda_realizations_of_/p,_t,_k/as_[β,_ð,_ɣ]"></span>I came across some articles, namely <a href="/wiki/Tucson" class="mw-redirect" title="Tucson">Tucson</a> but also some others, where they indicate the Spanish IPA pronunciation of words bearing coda /k/ as [ɣ] as a general rule for standard Spanish. I disagree with this notion, specially if it is prescribed as a rule for the standard variety. The reference used for this (Hualde 2005) mainly focuses on the Iberian standard variety based on northern Spanish pronunciation, where this lenis pronunciation <i>does</i> take place natively (and with the author being <a href="/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Ignacio_Hualde" title="José Ignacio Hualde">Spaniard</a> himself). However this is not the case for Latin America, where coda /k/ is strictly realised not as an approximant or fricative but always as plosive. There are some sources regarding this from Latin American countries noting this pronunciation, on both formal and informal contexts, from Mexico down to Chile and Argentina. The same applies for /p/ and /t/. Many Spanish-speaking users from the region have also shared this issue regarding IPA pronunciations with this kind of lenis feature present on some articles, that they do not reflect standard practice aside from features that cater to Iberian practice. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/38.25.30.164" title="Special:Contributions/38.25.30.164">38.25.30.164</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:38.25.30.164" title="User talk:38.25.30.164">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-38.25.30.164-20240309190600-Coda_realizations_of_/p,_t,_k/as_[β,_ð,_ɣ]" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:06, 9 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-38.25.30.164-20240309190600-Coda_realizations_of_/p,_t,_k/as_[β,_ð,_ɣ]"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240309190600","author":"38.25.30.164","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-38.25.30.164-20240309190600-Coda_realizations_of_\/p,_t,_k\/as_[\u03b2,_\u00f0,_\u0263]","replies":["c-Nardog-20240310080200-38.25.30.164-20240309190600"]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-38.25.30.164-20240309190600-Coda_realizations_of_/p,_t,_k/as_[β,_ð,_ɣ]"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20240310080200-38.25.30.164-20240309190600"></span>Hualde (2005) is in no way confined to Castilian standard (the very page talks about realizations in Caribbean dialects), and the word-internal neutralization between /p, t, k/ and /b, d, ɡ/ seems well documented and uncontested (e.g. Campos-Astorkiza 2018:169–70). What are those "sources" attesting the lack of the neutralization (or consistent realization of the neutralized phonemes as voiceless plosives?) across Latin America? <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-Nardog-20240310080200-38.25.30.164-20240309190600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:02, 10 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20240310080200-38.25.30.164-20240309190600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240310080200","author":"Nardog","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Nardog-20240310080200-38.25.30.164-20240309190600","replies":[]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20240310080200-38.25.30.164-20240309190600"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><!--__DTSUBSCRIBEBUTTONDESKTOP__{&quot;headingLevel&quot;:2,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;h-Brawlio-20240724203100&quot;,&quot;type&quot;:&quot;heading&quot;,&quot;level&quot;:0,&quot;id&quot;:&quot;h-voiced_\/\u03b8\/-20240724203100&quot;,&quot;replies&quot;:[&quot;c-Brawlio-20240724203100-voiced_\/\u03b8\/&quot;],&quot;text&quot;:&quot;voiced \/\u03b8\/&quot;,&quot;linkableTitle&quot;:&quot;voiced \/\u03b8\/&quot;}--><h2 id="voiced_/θ/" data-mw-thread-id="h-voiced_/θ/-20240724203100"><span id="voiced_.2F.CE.B8.2F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-voiced_/θ/-20240724203100"></span>voiced /θ/<span data-mw-comment-end="h-voiced_/θ/-20240724203100"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Help_talk:IPA/Spanish&amp;action=edit&amp;section=3" title="Edit section: voiced /θ/"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Brawlio-20240724203100","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-voiced_\/\u03b8\/-20240724203100","replies":["c-Brawlio-20240724203100-voiced_\/\u03b8\/"]}}--><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"><!--__DTLATESTCOMMENTTHREAD__{"id":"c-Nardog-20240724203500-Brawlio-20240724203100","timestamp":"20240724203500"}__--><!--__DTCOMMENTCOUNT__2__--><!--__DTAUTHORCOUNT__2__--></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"><!--__DTSUBSCRIBEBUTTONMOBILE__{&quot;headingLevel&quot;:2,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;h-Brawlio-20240724203100&quot;,&quot;type&quot;:&quot;heading&quot;,&quot;level&quot;:0,&quot;id&quot;:&quot;h-voiced_\/\u03b8\/-20240724203100&quot;,&quot;replies&quot;:[&quot;c-Brawlio-20240724203100-voiced_\/\u03b8\/&quot;],&quot;text&quot;:&quot;voiced \/\u03b8\/&quot;,&quot;linkableTitle&quot;:&quot;voiced \/\u03b8\/&quot;}--></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Brawlio-20240724203100-voiced_/θ/"></span>¿why is the voiced realization of /θ/ shown as [θ] instead of [ð]? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Brawlio&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Brawlio (page does not exist)">Brawlio</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Brawlio" title="User talk:Brawlio">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-Brawlio-20240724203100-voiced_/θ/" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:31, 24 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Brawlio-20240724203100-voiced_/θ/"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240724203100","author":"Brawlio","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Brawlio-20240724203100-voiced_\/\u03b8\/","replies":["c-Nardog-20240724203500-Brawlio-20240724203100"]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Brawlio-20240724203100-voiced_/θ/"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nardog-20240724203500-Brawlio-20240724203100"></span>Because <span class="nowrap">⟨ð⟩</span> commonly represents the approximant realization of /d/ in transcription of Spanish. Even in narrow transcriptions that mark the voicing of /θ/, the voiced allophone is usually transcribed with <span class="nowrap">⟨θ̬⟩</span>. But this key no longer marks the voicing of /s, f/ so there's no reason to mark the voicing of /θ/. <a href="/wiki/User:Nardog" title="User:Nardog">Nardog</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nardog" title="User talk:Nardog">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-Nardog-20240724203500-Brawlio-20240724203100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nardog-20240724203500-Brawlio-20240724203100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240724203500","author":"Nardog","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Nardog-20240724203500-Brawlio-20240724203100","replies":[]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nardog-20240724203500-Brawlio-20240724203100"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><!--__DTSUBSCRIBEBUTTONDESKTOP__{&quot;headingLevel&quot;:2,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;h-Brawlio-20240724212600&quot;,&quot;type&quot;:&quot;heading&quot;,&quot;level&quot;:0,&quot;id&quot;:&quot;h-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/\u03b8\/-20240724212600&quot;,&quot;replies&quot;:[&quot;c-Brawlio-20240724212600-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/\u03b8\/&quot;],&quot;text&quot;:&quot;\u27e8r\u27e9 after \/\u03b8\/&quot;,&quot;linkableTitle&quot;:&quot;\u27e8r\u27e9 after \/\u03b8\/&quot;}--><h2 id="⟨r⟩_after_/θ/" data-mw-thread-id="h-⟨r⟩_after_/θ/-20240724212600"><span id=".E2.9F.A8r.E2.9F.A9_after_.2F.CE.B8.2F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-⟨r⟩_after_/θ/-20240724212600"></span>⟨r⟩ after /θ/<span data-mw-comment-end="h-⟨r⟩_after_/θ/-20240724212600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Help_talk:IPA/Spanish&amp;action=edit&amp;section=4" title="Edit section: ⟨r⟩ after /θ/"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Brawlio-20240724212600","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/\u03b8\/-20240724212600","replies":["c-Brawlio-20240724212600-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/\u03b8\/"]}}--><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"><!--__DTLATESTCOMMENTTHREAD__{"id":"c-Brawlio-20241103033100-Erinius-20240725000900","timestamp":"20241103033100"}__--><!--__DTCOMMENTCOUNT__3__--><!--__DTAUTHORCOUNT__2__--></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"><!--__DTSUBSCRIBEBUTTONMOBILE__{&quot;headingLevel&quot;:2,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;h-Brawlio-20240724212600&quot;,&quot;type&quot;:&quot;heading&quot;,&quot;level&quot;:0,&quot;id&quot;:&quot;h-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/\u03b8\/-20240724212600&quot;,&quot;replies&quot;:[&quot;c-Brawlio-20240724212600-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/\u03b8\/&quot;],&quot;text&quot;:&quot;\u27e8r\u27e9 after \/\u03b8\/&quot;,&quot;linkableTitle&quot;:&quot;\u27e8r\u27e9 after \/\u03b8\/&quot;}--></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Brawlio-20240724212600-⟨r⟩_after_/θ/"></span>i believe the help page says ⟨r⟩ after /θ/ in a word like <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://dle.rae.es/lazrar">lazrar</a> would be [ɾ], but i was wondering whether it's actually pronounced as [r] and wasn't mentioned because its occurrence is as uncommon as i think it is. it seems like it could go either way since it would be [r] with seseo or [ɾ] with voiced /θ/ like fricative /d/ <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Brawlio&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Brawlio (page does not exist)">Brawlio</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Brawlio" title="User talk:Brawlio">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-Brawlio-20240724212600-⟨r⟩_after_/θ/" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:26, 24 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Brawlio-20240724212600-⟨r⟩_after_/θ/"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240724212600","author":"Brawlio","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Brawlio-20240724212600-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/\u03b8\/","replies":["c-Erinius-20240725000900-Brawlio-20240724212600"]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Brawlio-20240724212600-⟨r⟩_after_/θ/"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erinius-20240725000900-Brawlio-20240724212600"></span>I think the <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[r]</span> vs <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[ɾ]</span> footnote's just slightly off. After a heterosyllabic consonant, only <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[r]</span> appears. <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[θ]</span> can't form an onset cluster with <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[ɾ]</span>, so <span title="Spanish-language text"><i lang="es">lazrar</i></span> must have <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[-θ.r-]</span>. I don't have immediate access to the English version of Hualde's <i>The Sounds of Spanish</i>, but the Spanish version explains this. And <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/l,<span class="wrap"> </span>n,<span class="wrap"> </span>s/</span> are just the most common consonants for <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[r]</span> to appear after.</dd> <dd>I'm not sure how I'd rewrite the footnote, but maybe something explaining that only stop phonemes + <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/f/</span> can form onset clusters with <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/l/</span> or <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">[r]</span> would work; that's how it's explained in the Spanish version of (Hualde 2005) in section 4.3.2. Or you could list out all the consonant phonemes, or even list out the different letters that represent these phonemes <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.rae.es/dpd/r">as the DPD does</a>.</dd> <dd>And yeah, <i>-zr-</i> must be extremely rare word-internally in Spanish, in the DLE <span title="Spanish-language text"><i lang="es">lazrar</i></span> is the only word that has it. <a href="/wiki/User:Erinius" title="User:Erinius">Erinius</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erinius" title="User talk:Erinius">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-Erinius-20240725000900-Brawlio-20240724212600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:09, 25 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erinius-20240725000900-Brawlio-20240724212600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240725000900","author":"Erinius","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Erinius-20240725000900-Brawlio-20240724212600","replies":["c-Brawlio-20241103033100-Erinius-20240725000900"]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erinius-20240725000900-Brawlio-20240724212600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Brawlio-20241103033100-Erinius-20240725000900"></span>i see, the DPD link you shared provides the example of <a href="https://www.rae.es/dpd/r#:.7E:text.3D.2C_israel.C3.AD.2C-.2CAzrael.2C-." class="extiw" title="dpd:r">Azrael</a> pronounced with a [r] <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Brawlio&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Brawlio (page does not exist)">Brawlio</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Brawlio" title="User talk:Brawlio">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-Brawlio-20241103033100-Erinius-20240725000900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Brawlio-20241103033100-Erinius-20240725000900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241103033100","author":"Brawlio","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Brawlio-20241103033100-Erinius-20240725000900","replies":[]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Brawlio-20241103033100-Erinius-20240725000900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><!--__DTSUBSCRIBEBUTTONDESKTOP__{&quot;headingLevel&quot;:2,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;h-Brawlio-20241027180100&quot;,&quot;type&quot;:&quot;heading&quot;,&quot;level&quot;:0,&quot;id&quot;:&quot;h-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/x\/-20241027180100&quot;,&quot;replies&quot;:[&quot;c-Brawlio-20241027180100-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/x\/&quot;],&quot;text&quot;:&quot;\u27e8r\u27e9 after \/x\/&quot;,&quot;linkableTitle&quot;:&quot;\u27e8r\u27e9 after \/x\/&quot;}--><h2 id="⟨r⟩_after_/x/" data-mw-thread-id="h-⟨r⟩_after_/x/-20241027180100"><span id=".E2.9F.A8r.E2.9F.A9_after_.2Fx.2F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-⟨r⟩_after_/x/-20241027180100"></span>⟨r⟩ after /x/<span data-mw-comment-end="h-⟨r⟩_after_/x/-20241027180100"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Help_talk:IPA/Spanish&amp;action=edit&amp;section=5" title="Edit section: ⟨r⟩ after /x/"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Brawlio-20241027180100","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/x\/-20241027180100","replies":["c-Brawlio-20241027180100-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/x\/"]}}--><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"><!--__DTLATESTCOMMENTTHREAD__{"id":"c-Erinius-20241104040400-Sol505000-20241103103000","timestamp":"20241104040400"}__--><!--__DTCOMMENTCOUNT__5__--><!--__DTAUTHORCOUNT__3__--></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"><!--__DTSUBSCRIBEBUTTONMOBILE__{&quot;headingLevel&quot;:2,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;h-Brawlio-20241027180100&quot;,&quot;type&quot;:&quot;heading&quot;,&quot;level&quot;:0,&quot;id&quot;:&quot;h-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/x\/-20241027180100&quot;,&quot;replies&quot;:[&quot;c-Brawlio-20241027180100-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/x\/&quot;],&quot;text&quot;:&quot;\u27e8r\u27e9 after \/x\/&quot;,&quot;linkableTitle&quot;:&quot;\u27e8r\u27e9 after \/x\/&quot;}--></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Brawlio-20241027180100-⟨r⟩_after_/x/"></span>⟨-jr-⟩, such as in <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.asale.org/damer/lojro">lojro</a>, is another rare word internal sequence that the help page seems to be implying is pronounced /xɾ/ but i'm not sure whether that's accurate <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Brawlio&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Brawlio (page does not exist)">Brawlio</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Brawlio" title="User talk:Brawlio">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-Brawlio-20241027180100-⟨r⟩_after_/x/" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:01, 27 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Brawlio-20241027180100-⟨r⟩_after_/x/"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241027180100","author":"Brawlio","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Brawlio-20241027180100-\u27e8r\u27e9_after_\/x\/","replies":["c-Erinius-20241028055400-Brawlio-20241027180100","c-Sol505000-20241103103000-Brawlio-20241027180100"]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Brawlio-20241027180100-⟨r⟩_after_/x/"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erinius-20241028055400-Brawlio-20241027180100"></span>Based on spelling I'd assume <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/x.r/</span>, since typically Spanish is described as having only <span class="IPA nowrap" lang="und-Latn-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">/b<span class="wrap"> </span>d<span class="wrap"> </span>g<span class="wrap"> </span>p<span class="wrap"> </span>t<span class="wrap"> </span>k<span class="wrap"> </span>f/</span> before the tap in onset clusters - but, as that dictionary page mentions, <span title="Spanish-language text"><i lang="es">lojro</i></span> is related to <span title="Spanish-language text"><i lang="es">locro</i></span>, a loan from Quechua which would have the tap - and in <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgqpxoMktL8">this cooking video</a> the host pronounces it once, with a tap, at like 7:03. <a href="/wiki/User:Erinius" title="User:Erinius">Erinius</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erinius" title="User talk:Erinius">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-Erinius-20241028055400-Brawlio-20241027180100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erinius-20241028055400-Brawlio-20241027180100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241028055400","author":"Erinius","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Erinius-20241028055400-Brawlio-20241027180100","replies":["c-Brawlio-20241028181600-Erinius-20241028055400"]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erinius-20241028055400-Brawlio-20241027180100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Brawlio-20241028181600-Erinius-20241028055400"></span>his pronunciation at <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgqpxoMktL8&amp;t=415s">6:55</a> kind of seems like more of a tap, while i think his pronunciation at <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgqpxoMktL8&amp;t=423s">7:03</a> is a little bit more ambiguous. perhaps it's the proximity to the /x/, which i think may be more of a [χ~ʀ̥] realization, which may be expected given the possible quechua influence. but when listening at 0.25 speed, i'm not so sure it's his /ɾ/, but perhaps not quite his /r/ either. definitely need more data <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Brawlio&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Brawlio (page does not exist)">Brawlio</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Brawlio" title="User talk:Brawlio">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-Brawlio-20241028181600-Erinius-20241028055400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Brawlio-20241028181600-Erinius-20241028055400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241028181600","author":"Brawlio","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Brawlio-20241028181600-Erinius-20241028055400","replies":[]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Brawlio-20241028181600-Erinius-20241028055400"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sol505000-20241103103000-Brawlio-20241027180100"></span>I think this discussion would be more relevant to <a href="/wiki/Spanish_phonology" title="Spanish phonology">Spanish phonology</a>. It won't affect more than a few transcriptions linking to this guide, and there are already thousands of them. <a href="/wiki/User:Sol505000" title="User:Sol505000">Sol505000</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sol505000" title="User talk:Sol505000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-Sol505000-20241103103000-Brawlio-20241027180100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sol505000-20241103103000-Brawlio-20241027180100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241103103000","author":"Sol505000","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Sol505000-20241103103000-Brawlio-20241027180100","replies":["c-Erinius-20241104040400-Sol505000-20241103103000"]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sol505000-20241103103000-Brawlio-20241027180100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erinius-20241104040400-Sol505000-20241103103000"></span>I'd be surprised if it affects even a single transcription to be honest. <a href="/wiki/User:Erinius" title="User:Erinius">Erinius</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erinius" title="User talk:Erinius">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:IPA/Spanish#c-Erinius-20241104040400-Sol505000-20241103103000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erinius-20241104040400-Sol505000-20241103103000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span><!--__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104040400","author":"Erinius","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Erinius-20241104040400-Sol505000-20241103103000","replies":[]}}--></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erinius-20241104040400-Sol505000-20241103103000"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <!-- NewPP limit report Parsed by mw‐web.codfw.main‐f69cdc8f6‐zw2dd Cached time: 20241124223241 Cache expiry: 864000 Reduced expiry: true Complications: [vary‐revision‐sha1, show‐toc] DiscussionTools time usage: 0.020 seconds CPU time usage: 0.389 seconds Real time usage: 0.512 seconds Preprocessor visited node count: 1828/1000000 Post‐expand include size: 42779/2097152 bytes Template argument size: 814/2097152 bytes Highest expansion depth: 16/100 Expensive parser function count: 24/500 Unstrip recursion depth: 0/20 Unstrip post‐expand size: 31941/5000000 bytes Lua time usage: 0.268/10.000 seconds Lua memory usage: 16822075/52428800 bytes Number of Wikibase entities loaded: 0/400 --> <!-- Transclusion expansion time report (%,ms,calls,template) 100.00% 435.485 1 -total 47.38% 206.321 1 Template:WikiProject_banner_shell 26.78% 116.642 4 Template:Lang 17.61% 76.675 1 Template:WikiProject_Help 15.38% 66.966 1 Template:Archives 7.85% 34.188 11 Template:Th/abp 7.68% 33.464 13 Template:IPA 6.66% 29.001 1 Template:WikiProject_Linguistics 3.42% 14.911 1 Template:WikiProject_Latin_America 3.19% 13.875 1 Template:Archive_list --> <!-- Saved in parser cache with key enwiki:pcache:idhash:7911038-0!canonical and timestamp 20241124223241 and revision id 1255291561. 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