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href="#Misleading_shortcut"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>Misleading shortcut</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">7 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Misleading_shortcut-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Discourage_postfix_plus?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Discourage_postfix_plus?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>Discourage postfix plus?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Discourage_postfix_plus?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Numerals_in_a_sequence" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Numerals_in_a_sequence"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Numerals in a sequence</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">14 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Numerals_in_a_sequence-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-μs_vs_us" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#μs_vs_us"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>μs vs us</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-μs_vs_us-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Day,_date_month_format" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Day,_date_month_format"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>Day, date month format</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">9 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Day,_date_month_format-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Spacing_with_percentage_points" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Spacing_with_percentage_points"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>Spacing with percentage points</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">20 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Spacing_with_percentage_points-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-UNITSYMBOLS_(1_×_3_×_6_m):_“each_number_should_be_followed_by_a_unit_name_or_symbol”" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#UNITSYMBOLS_(1_×_3_×_6_m):_“each_number_should_be_followed_by_a_unit_name_or_symbol”"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>UNITSYMBOLS (1 × 3 × 6 m): “each number should be followed by a unit name or symbol”</span> </div> </a> <span 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.talkheader-policies,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{display:flex;align-items:center;padding:0.1em}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help{flex:2 1 auto;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:var(--background-color-base,#ffffff);color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies+.talkheader-policies{border-left:1px solid #c0c090}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{flex:0 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts>*{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help ul,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies ul{margin:0.1em 0.8em 0 1.6em;text-align:left}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .talkheader{min-width:80%}}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice talkheader plainlinks" id="talkheader" style="border-collapse: separate;"><tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom: 1px solid #c0c090; font-weight: bold;">This is the <a 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data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1126788409">.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul{line-height:inherit;list-style:none;margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol li,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul li{margin-bottom:0}</style><div class="plainlist"><ul><li><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:DATE&redirect=no">WT:DATE</a></span></li><li><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:MOSDATE&redirect=no">WT:MOSDATE</a></span></li></ul></div></div> </div> </div> </td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><b><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">Archives</a>:</b> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_index" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive index">Index</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_1" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_2" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 2">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_3" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 3">3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_4" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 4">4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_5" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 5">5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_6" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 6">6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_7" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 7">7</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_8" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 8">8</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_9" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 9">9</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_10" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 10">10</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_11" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 11">11</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_12" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 12">12</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_13" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 13">13</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_14" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 14">14</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_15" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 15">15</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_16" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 16">16</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_17" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 17">17</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_18" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 18">18</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_19" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 19">19</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_20" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 20">20</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_21" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 21">21</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_22" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 22">22</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_23" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 23">23</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_24" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 24">24</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_25" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 25">25</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_26" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 26">26</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_27" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 27">27</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_28" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 28">28</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_29" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 29">29</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_30" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 30">30</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_31" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 31">31</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_32" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 32">32</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_33" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 33">33</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_34" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 34">34</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_35" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 35">35</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_36" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 36">36</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_37" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 37">37</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_38" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 38">38</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_39" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 39">39</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_40" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 40">40</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_41" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 41">41</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_42" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 42">42</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_43" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 43">43</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_44" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 44">44</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_45" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 45">45</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_46" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 46">46</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_47" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 47">47</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_48" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 48">48</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_49" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 49">49</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_50" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 50">50</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_51" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 51">51</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_52" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 52">52</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_53" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 53">53</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_54" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 54">54</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_55" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 55">55</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_56" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 56">56</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_57" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 57">57</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_58" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 58">58</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_59" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 59">59</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_60" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 60">60</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_61" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 61">61</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_62" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 62">62</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_63" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 63">63</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_64" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 64">64</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_65" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 65">65</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_66" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 66">66</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_67" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 67">67</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_68" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 68">68</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_69" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 69">69</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_70" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 70">70</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_71" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 71">71</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_72" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 72">72</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_73" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 73">73</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_74" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 74">74</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_75" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 75">75</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_76" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 76">76</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_77" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 77">77</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_78" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 78">78</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_79" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 79">79</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_80" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 80">80</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_81" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 81">81</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_82" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 82">82</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_83" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 83">83</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_84" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 84">84</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_85" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 85">85</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_86" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 86">86</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_87" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 87">87</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_88" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 88">88</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_89" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 89">89</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_90" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 90">90</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_91" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 91">91</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_92" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 92">92</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_93" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 93">93</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_94" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 94">94</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_95" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 95">95</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_96" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 96">96</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_97" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 97">97</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_98" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 98">98</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_99" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 99">99</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_100" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 100">100</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_101" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 101">101</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_102" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 102">102</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_103" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 103">103</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_104" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 104">104</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_105" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 105">105</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_106" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 106">106</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_107" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 107">107</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_108" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 108">108</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_109" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 109">109</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_110" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 110">110</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_111" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 111">111</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_112" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 112">112</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_113" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 113">113</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_114" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 114">114</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_115" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 115">115</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_116" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 116">116</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_117" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 117">117</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_118" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 118">118</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_119" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 119">119</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_120" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 120">120</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_121" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 121">121</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_122" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 122">122</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_123" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 123">123</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_124" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 124">124</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_125" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 125">125</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_126" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 126">126</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_127" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 127">127</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_128" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 128">128</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_129" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 129">129</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_130" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 130">130</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_131" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 131">131</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_132" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 132">132</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_133" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 133">133</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_134" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 134">134</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_135" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 135">135</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_136" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 136">136</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_137" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 137">137</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_138" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 138">138</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_139" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 139">139</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_140" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 140">140</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_141" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 141">141</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_142" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 142">142</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_143" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 143">143</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_144" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 144">144</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_145" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 145">145</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_146" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 146">146</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_147" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 147">147</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_148" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 148">148</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_149" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 149">149</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_150" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 150">150</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_151" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 151">151</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_152" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 152">152</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_153" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 153">153</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_154" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 154">154</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_155" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 155">155</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_156" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 156">156</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_157" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 157">157</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_158" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 158">158</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_159" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 159">159</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_160" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 160">160</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_161" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 161">161</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_162" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 162">162</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_163" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 163">163</a><span style="position: relative; top: 2px; float: right; font-size: 90%; margin-left: 1em;"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1038841319">.mw-parser-output .tooltip-dotted{border-bottom:1px 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srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Peace_dove_icon.svg/60px-Peace_dove_icon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Peace_dove_icon.svg/80px-Peace_dove_icon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="850" data-file-height="850"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text">Please stay <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Staying_cool_when_the_editing_gets_hot" title="Wikipedia:Staying cool when the editing gets hot">calm</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility" title="Wikipedia:Civility">civil</a> while commenting or presenting evidence, and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks" title="Wikipedia:No personal attacks">do not make personal attacks</a>. 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srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Symbol_project_class.svg/53px-Symbol_project_class.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Symbol_project_class.svg/70px-Symbol_project_class.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span></td><td class="banner-shell-header" style="text-align:left;font-weight:normal">This project page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.<br/>It is of interest to the following <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject">WikiProjects</a>:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="banner-shell-inner outercollapse"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256394742">.mw-parser-output .wpb-header,.mw-parser-output .wpb-metadata,.mw-parser-output .wpb-iefix{display:none}.mw-parser-output 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.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/25px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/38px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/50px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 2x" data-file-width="120" data-file-height="120"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style">Manual of Style</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles"><span class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File"><span title="This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing."><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/20px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/30px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/40px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></span></span></span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles"><span class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File"><span title="For information on Wikipedia's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Wikipedia policies of Wikipedia's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations."><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/20px-Emblem-important.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/30px-Emblem-important.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/40px-Emblem-important.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></span></span></span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/45px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png" decoding="async" width="45" height="45" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/68px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png/90px-Nuvola-inspired_File_Icons_for_MediaWiki-fileicon-doc-alt2.png 2x" data-file-width="120" data-file-height="120"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This page falls within the scope of the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Wikipedia:Manual of Style</a></b>, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Manual of Style</a> (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Manual of Style</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Manual of Style</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Manual of Style articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Note icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/25px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/38px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg/50px-Commons-emblem-hand-orange.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><b>This page falls under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contentious_topics" title="Wikipedia:Contentious topics">contentious topics</a> procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Manual of Style</a>, and the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles" title="Wikipedia:Article titles">article titles policy</a>. Both areas are subjects of debate.</b><br/>Contributors are urged to review the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contentious_topics#Awareness_of_contentious_topics" title="Wikipedia:Contentious topics">awareness criteria</a> carefully and exercise caution when editing.</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Emblem-important.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Note icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/25px-Emblem-important.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/38px-Emblem-important.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Emblem-important.svg/50px-Emblem-important.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">For information on Wikipedia's approach to the establishment of new <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines">policies and guidelines</a>, refer to <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Proposals" title="Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines">WP:PROPOSAL</a></b>. Additionally, <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_contribute_to_Wikipedia_guidance" title="Wikipedia:How to contribute to Wikipedia guidance">guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Wikipedia policies</a></b> of Wikipedia's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <p class="mw-empty-elt"> </p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"> <table id="archivebox" role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice mbox-small" style="text-align: center; padding: 1em;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="padding:0.6em 0 0.25em;"> <div style="width:100%; overflow:hidden;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></a></span><br/><b>Archives</b></div> </td></tr><tr> <td class="plainlinks"> </td></tr><tr><td class="plainlinks" style="padding:0px 10px; text-align:left;"> <div class="collapsible-list mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="text-align: left;"> <div style="line-height: 1.6em; font-weight: bold;"><div>General</div></div> <ul class="mw-collapsible-content" style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0; line-height: inherit; list-style: none; margin-left: 0;"><li style="line-height: inherit; margin: 0"> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_1" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_2" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 2">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_3" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 3">3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_4" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 4">4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_5" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 5">5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/vote" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/vote">vote</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_6" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 6">6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_7" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 7">7</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_8" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 8">8</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_9" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 9">9 (AD/CE)</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_10" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 10">10</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_11" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 11">11</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_12" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 12">12</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_13" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 13">13</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_14" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 14">14</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/archive_dash_discussion" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/archive dash discussion">14a</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_15" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 15">15</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_16" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 16">16</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_17" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 17">17</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_18" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 18">18</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_19" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 19">19</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_20" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 20">20</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_21" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 21">21</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_22" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 22">22</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_23" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 23">23</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_24" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 24">24</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_25" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 25">25</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_26" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 26">26</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_27" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 27">27</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_28" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 28">28</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_29" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 29">29</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_30" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 30">30</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_31" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 31">31</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_32" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 32">32</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_33" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 33">33</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_34" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 34">34</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_35" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 35">35</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_36" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 36">36</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_37" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 37">37</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_38" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 38">38</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_39" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 39">39</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_40" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 40">40</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_41" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 41">41</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_42" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 42">42</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_43" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 43">43</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_44" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 44">44</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_45" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 45">45</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_46" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 46">46</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_47" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 47">47</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_48" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 48">48</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_49" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 49">49</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_49a" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 49a">49a</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_50" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 50">50</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_51" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 51">51</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_52" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 52">52</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_53" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 53">53</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_54" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 54">54</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_55" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 55">55</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_56" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 56">56</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_57" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 57">57</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_58" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 58">58</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_59" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 59">59</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_60" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 60">60</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_61" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 61">61</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_62" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 62">62</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_63" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 63">63</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_64" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 64">64</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_65" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 65">65</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_66" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 66">66</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_67" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 67">67</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_68" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 68">68</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_69" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 69">69</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_70" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 70">70</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_71" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 71">71</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_72" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 72">72</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_73" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 73">73</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_74" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 74">74</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_75" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 75">75</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_76" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 76">76</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_77" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 77">77</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_78" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 78">78</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_79" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 79">79</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_80" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 80">80</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_81" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 81">81</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_82" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 82">82</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_83" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 83">83</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_84" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 84">84</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_85" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 85">85</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_86" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 86">86</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_87" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 87">87</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_88" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 88">88</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_89" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 89">89</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_90" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 90">90</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_91" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 91">91</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_92" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 92">92</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_93" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 93">93</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_94" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 94">94</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_95" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 95">95</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_96" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 96">96</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_97" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 97">97</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_98" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 98">98</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_99" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 99">99</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_100" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 100">100</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_101" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 101">101</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_102" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 102">102</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_103" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 103">103</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_104" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 104">104</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_105" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 105">105</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_106" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 106">106</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_107" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 107">107</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_D6" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive D6">108</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_109" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 109">109</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_110" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 110">110</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_111" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 111">111</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_112" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 112">112</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_113" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 113">113</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_114" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 114">114</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_115" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 115">115</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_116" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 116">116</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_117" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 117">117</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_118" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 118">118</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_119" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 119">119</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_120" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 120">120</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_121" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 121">121</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_122" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 122">122</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_123" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 123">123</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_124" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 124">124</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_125" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 125">125</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_126" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 126">126</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_127" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 127">127</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_128" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 128">128</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_129" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 129">129</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_130" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 130">130</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_131" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 131">131</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_132" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 132">132</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_133" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 133">133</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_134" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 134">134</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_135" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 135">135</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_136" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 136">136</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_137" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 137">137</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_138" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 138">138</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_139" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 139">139</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_140" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 140">140</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_141" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 141">141</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_142" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 142">142</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_143" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 143">143</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_144" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 144">144</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_145" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 145">145</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_146" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 146">146</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_147" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 147">147</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_148" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 148">148</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_149" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 149">149</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_150" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 150">150</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_151" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 151">151</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_152" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 152">152</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_153" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 153">153</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_154" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 154">154</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_155" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 155">155</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_156" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 156">156</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_157" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 157">157</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_158" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 158">158</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_159" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 159">159</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_160" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 160">160</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_161" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 161">161</a> </li></ul> </div> <div class="collapsible-list mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="text-align: left;"> <div style="line-height: 1.6em; font-weight: bold;"><div>Binary prefixes</div></div> <ul class="mw-collapsible-content" style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0; line-height: inherit; list-style: none; margin-left: 0;"><li style="line-height: inherit; margin: 0"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_zero" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive zero">B0</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B1" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B1">B1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B2" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B2">B2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B3" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B3">B3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B4" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B4">B4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B5" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B5">B5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B6" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B6">B6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B7" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B7">B7</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B8" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B8">B8</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B9" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B9">B9</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B10" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B10">B10</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B11" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B11">B11</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B12" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B12">B12</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B13" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B13">B13</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B14" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B14">B14</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B15" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B15">B15</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B16" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B16">B16</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B17" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive B17">B17</a> </li></ul> </div> <div class="collapsible-list mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="text-align: left;"> <div style="line-height: 1.6em; font-weight: bold;"><div>Years and dates</div></div> <ul class="mw-collapsible-content" style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0; line-height: inherit; list-style: none; margin-left: 0;"><li style="line-height: inherit; margin: 0"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_D1" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive D1">D1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_D2" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive D2">D2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_D3" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive D3">D3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_D4" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive D4">D4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_D5" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive D5">D5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_D6" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive D6">D6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_110" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 110">D7</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_111" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 111">D8</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_112" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 112">D9</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_113" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 113">D10</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_114" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 114">D11</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_115" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 115">D12</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_118" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 118">D13</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_119" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 119">D14</a> </li></ul> </div> <div class="collapsible-list mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="text-align: left;"> <div style="line-height: 1.6em; font-weight: bold;"><div>See also</div></div> <ul class="mw-collapsible-content" style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0; line-height: inherit;"><li style="line-height: inherit; margin: 0"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Dates" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Dates">Wikipedia:WikiProject Dates</a> </li><li style="line-height: inherit; margin: 0"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Date_debate" title="Wikipedia talk:Date debate">Wikipedia talk:Date debate</a> </li><li style="line-height: inherit; margin: 0"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(calendar_dates)" title="Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (calendar dates)">Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (calendar dates)</a> </li><li style="line-height: inherit; margin: 0"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Timeline_standards" title="Wikipedia talk:Timeline standards">Wikipedia talk:Timeline standards</a> </li><li style="line-height: inherit; margin: 0"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Measurements_Debate" title="Wikipedia:Measurements Debate">Wikipedia:Measurements Debate</a> </li><li style="line-height: inherit; margin: 0"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Date_autoformatting" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Date autoformatting">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Date autoformatting</a> </li><li style="line-height: inherit; margin: 0"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive/Complete_rewrite_of_Units_of_Measurements_(June_2008)" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive/Complete rewrite of Units of Measurements (June 2008)">Complete rewrite of Units of Measurements (June 2008)</a> </li><li style="line-height: inherit; margin: 0"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Three_proposals_for_change_to_MOSNUM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Three proposals for change to MOSNUM">Dec. 2008 RfC on Date linking/autoformatting (three proposals)</a> </li><li style="line-height: inherit; margin: 0"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Date_Linking_RFC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Date Linking RFC">Dec. 2008 RfC on Date linking/autoformatting (detailed)</a> </li></ul> </div> </td> </tr><tr><td style="padding-bottom:11px"><div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-inputbox-input mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="22" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/" name="prefix"/><br/><input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </td></tr><tr><td style="padding:0px 10px; font-size:11.9px;"> <hr/> This page has archives. Sections older than <b>60 days</b> may be automatically archived by <span class="nowraplinks"><a href="/wiki/User:Lowercase_sigmabot_III" title="User:Lowercase sigmabot III">Lowercase sigmabot III</a></span> when more than 2 sections are present.</td></tr> </tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox mbox-small tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Ambox_humor.svg/30px-Ambox_humor.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="26" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Ambox_humor.svg/45px-Ambox_humor.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Ambox_humor.svg/60px-Ambox_humor.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="378" data-file-height="326"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text">It has been <b>160 days</b> since the outbreak of the latest dispute over date formats.</td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Recent_edits" data-mw-thread-id="h-Recent_edits-20240927105200"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Recent_edits-20240927105200"></span>Recent edits<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Recent_edits-20240927105200"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Recent edits"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chatul-20240927105200-Recent_edits"></span>A string of edits by <a href="/wiki/User:Jc3s5h" title="User:Jc3s5h">Jc3s5h</a> and <a href="/wiki/User:JMF" title="User:JMF">JMF</a>. introducing and removing changes to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Common_mathematical_symbols" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers">Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers § Common mathematical symbols</a>, raise issues that I believe should be discussed. </p> <ol><li>The most recent change, <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/1247903136" title="Special:PermanentLink/1247903136">permalink/1247903136</a>, has the comment <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">This page does not cover matrix operations.</q>, however, I do not see anything in the article to support a restriction to numerical operations.</li> <li>The most recent change reinstates the link to <a href="/wiki/Dot_product" title="Dot product">dot product</a>, despite the comment.</li> <li>There seems to be disagreement on the division sign.</li></ol> <p>The questions that I wish to raise are </p> <ol><li>Should that section mention <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Tmath" title="Template:Tmath">tmath</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> or <code class="nowrap" style=""><math>...</math></code>?</li> <li>Are vector operations within the scope of the article? Regardless of the answer, the dot and cross products should be treated consistently.</li> <li>Should there be two new rows for dot and cross product?</li> <li>Should there be a row for <a href="/wiki/Tensor_product" title="Tensor product">tensor product</a>?</li> <li>Is <a href="/wiki/Obelus" title="Obelus">obelus</a> unhelpful since it has three forms?</li> <li>Should the <a href="/wiki/Division_sign" title="Division sign">Division sign</a> (<span class="nowrap"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r886049734">.mw-parser-output .monospaced{font-family:monospace,monospace}</style><span class="monospaced">U+00F7</span> </span><span style="font-size:125%;line-height:1em">÷</span> <span style="font-variant: small-caps; text-transform: lowercase;">DIVISION SIGN</span>) be deprecated in favor of <a href="/wiki/Slash_(punctuation)" title="Slash (punctuation)">Slash</a> (<span class="nowrap"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r886049734"><span class="monospaced">U+002F</span> </span><span style="font-size:125%;line-height:1em">/</span> <span style="font-variant: small-caps; text-transform: lowercase;">SOLIDUS</span>)?</li> <li>Should <span class="nowrap"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r886049734"><span class="monospaced">U+2215</span> </span><span style="font-size:125%;line-height:1em">∕</span> <span style="font-variant: small-caps; text-transform: lowercase;">DIVISION SLASH</span> be explicitly deprecated in favor of Slash?</li> <li>Should the use of "x" and "*" as multiplication signs be explicitly deprecated in favor of <span class="nowrap"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r886049734"><span class="monospaced">U+00D7</span> </span><span style="font-size:125%;line-height:1em">×</span> <span style="font-variant: small-caps; text-transform: lowercase;">MULTIPLICATION SIGN</span>?</li> <li>Should that section show the <span class="texhtml" style="font-family: 'CMU Serif', cmr10, LMRoman10-Regular, 'Latin Modern Math', 'Nimbus Roman No9 L', 'Times New Roman', Times, serif;">L<span style="text-transform: uppercase; font-size: 0.75em; vertical-align: 0.25em; margin-left: -0.36em; margin-right: -0.15em; line-height: 1ex;">a</span>T<span style="text-transform: uppercase; vertical-align: -0.25em; margin-left: -0.1667em; margin-right: -0.125em; line-height: 1ex;">e</span>X</span> markup for characters in addition to the HTML <a href="/wiki/List_of_XML_and_HTML_character_entity_references#List_of_character_entity_references_in_HTML" title="List of XML and HTML character entity references">character entity references</a>?</li></ol> <p>-- <a href="/wiki/User:Chatul" title="User:Chatul">Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chatul" title="User talk:Chatul">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Chatul-20240927105200-Recent_edits" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:52, 27 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chatul-20240927105200-Recent_edits"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chatul-20240927105200-Recent_edits"></span> </p> <dl><dd> <ol><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jc3s5h-20240927194500-Chatul-20240927105200"></span>I think the page should be devoted to general articles, and <math> should be reserved for advanced math and science articles.</li> <li>Vector operations are not currently in the scope of the project page, and I'm not thrilled about adding them.</li> <li>Dot product and cross product should certainly not be addressed in the same row as any scalar operation. The multiplication dot should certainly not be linked to the "Dot product" article nor should the multiplication cross be linked to the "Cross product" article.</li> <li>Tensor products should not be covered in this project page because they're too advanced.</li> <li class="mw-empty-elt"></li><li value="7"> I'm not willing to spend 5 or minutes figuring out what this line means.</li> <li>The asterisk as a multiplication sign should be limited to articles about computer languages that use it as such.</li> <li>LATEX should not be mentioned, since we don't use it in Wikipedia. This isn't a style manual for writing outside of Wikipedia.</li></ol> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:Jc3s5h" title="User:Jc3s5h">Jc3s5h</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jc3s5h" title="User talk:Jc3s5h">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Jc3s5h-20240927194500-Chatul-20240927105200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:45, 27 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jc3s5h-20240927194500-Chatul-20240927105200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jc3s5h-20240927194500-Chatul-20240927105200"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JMF-20240927200400-Chatul-20240927105200"></span>Tbh, I wondered what this extensive list is doing in the MOS in the first place. <a href="/wiki/Glossary_of_mathematical_symbols" title="Glossary of mathematical symbols">Glossary of mathematical symbols</a> does it better. It really needs to be reduced to cover only those symbols that have a styling issue: scalar division and multiplication. <ul><li>The grade-school division sign should be formally deprecated, for reasons explained at <a href="/wiki/Division_sign" title="Division sign">division sign</a>.</li> <li>The 'ordinary' slash (002F) should be preferred over 2215, same logic as straight quotes and curly quotes.</li> <li>I prefer <span class="nowrap"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r886049734"><span class="monospaced">U+00D7</span> </span><span style="font-size:125%;line-height:1em">×</span> <span style="font-variant: small-caps; text-transform: lowercase;">MULTIPLICATION SIGN</span> over x, for biology as well as math but maybe that needs debate.</li></ul></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:JMF" title="User:JMF">𝕁𝕄𝔽</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JMF" title="User talk:JMF">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-JMF-20240927200400-Chatul-20240927105200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JMF-20240927200400-Chatul-20240927105200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JMF-20240927200400-Chatul-20240927105200"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BarrelProof-20241007214600-Chatul-20240927105200"></span>Comments: <ul><li>I see no good reason to prohibit using a <a href="/wiki/Division_sign" title="Division sign">division sign</a> to express division. That seems absolutely fine. The <a href="/wiki/Division_sign" title="Division sign">division sign</a> article seems to say it might be confusing in Italian, Russian, Polish, Danish, Norwegian, or Swedish, but this is the English Wikipedia. We use <a href="/wiki/Full_stop" title="Full stop">points</a> as <a href="/wiki/Decimal_separator" title="Decimal separator">decimal separators</a> also, and we use <a href="/wiki/Comma" title="Comma">commas</a> as a <a href="/wiki/Thousands_separator" class="mw-redirect" title="Thousands separator">thousands separator</a> too, although that might be confusing in other languages.</li> <li>I also see no good reason to prohibit using an asterisk for multiplication; it seems well-understood, easy to type, unambiguous, and common in practice. I agree with not using "x" for multiplication, although I think it's OK to express "by" relationships for 2x4 lumber, 4x8 sheets of plywood, and 4x4 trucks.</li> <li><big><math>x</math></big> (i.e., <big><span class="mwe-math-element"><span class="mwe-math-mathml-inline mwe-math-mathml-a11y" style="display: none;"><math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" alttext="{\displaystyle x}"> <semantics> <mrow class="MJX-TeXAtom-ORD"> <mstyle displaystyle="true" scriptlevel="0"> <mi>x</mi> </mstyle> </mrow> <annotation encoding="application/x-tex">{\displaystyle x}</annotation> </semantics> </math></span><img src="https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/87f9e315fd7e2ba406057a97300593c4802b53e4" class="mwe-math-fallback-image-inline mw-invert skin-invert" aria-hidden="true" style="vertical-align: -0.338ex; width:1.33ex; height:1.676ex;" alt="{\displaystyle x}"/></span></big>) looks different from <big>''x''</big> (i.e., <big><i>x</i></big>), and those look different from <big>{{math|''x''}}</big> (i.e., <big><span class="texhtml"><i>x</i></span></big>), at least on my screen, and seeing mixtures of those in the same article can be a bit annoying (especially if they are near each other).</li></ul></dd> <dd>—⁠ ⁠<a href="/wiki/User:BarrelProof" title="User:BarrelProof">BarrelProof</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BarrelProof" title="User talk:BarrelProof">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-BarrelProof-20241007214600-Chatul-20240927105200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BarrelProof-20241007214600-Chatul-20240927105200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BarrelProof-20241007214600-Chatul-20240927105200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007221200-BarrelProof-20241007214600"></span>Asterisk means <a href="/wiki/Convolution" title="Convolution">convolution</a> (which is somewhat related to the idea of "multiplication" but should not be confused with the usual multiplication). Its use as a substitution for "×" or "⋅" is a bad habit from the old days of poor technology (but it was never used as such in professional typesetting) and has no excuse nowadays. — <a href="/wiki/User:Mikhail_Ryazanov" title="User:Mikhail Ryazanov">Mikhail Ryazanov</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mikhail_Ryazanov" title="User talk:Mikhail Ryazanov">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007221200-BarrelProof-20241007214600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:12, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007221200-BarrelProof-20241007214600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007221200-BarrelProof-20241007214600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BarrelProof-20241007222100-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007221200"></span>Convolution would only be a matter to consider in very mathematically sophisticated specialized contexts. It's not something most people have ever encountered. Even for those who use it, it would often be expressed using <a href="/wiki/Summation" title="Summation">summation</a> or <a href="/wiki/Integral" title="Integral">integration</a> instead. —⁠ ⁠<a href="/wiki/User:BarrelProof" title="User:BarrelProof">BarrelProof</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BarrelProof" title="User talk:BarrelProof">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-BarrelProof-20241007222100-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007221200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:21, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BarrelProof-20241007222100-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007221200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BarrelProof-20241007222100-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007221200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BarrelProof-20241008033700-BarrelProof-20241007222100"></span>I don't think that this is a good reason to make exceptions to tolerate/promote sloppy typography (moreover, in some computer fonts the ASCII asterisk <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://fonts.google.com/?preview.text=x%20*%20X%20=">looks</a> more like a superscript than a binary operator consistent with +, −, = and so on). <dl><dd>I don't think we should feel responsible for how Wikipedia is rendered in all possible fonts. We should remember that everyone is supposed to be able to edit Wikipedia articles. In an article that isn't about mathematics, or at least isn't using it beyond the 10th grade level, <i>f = 1.8 * c + 32</i> seems basically OK to describe conversion from degrees C to degrees F. It's tricky enough that we tell people to pay attention to the difference between "-", "–", "—", and "−", and to not use italics for the numbers in that formula, although I support those instructions. —⁠ ⁠<a href="/wiki/User:BarrelProof" title="User:BarrelProof">BarrelProof</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BarrelProof" title="User talk:BarrelProof">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-BarrelProof-20241008033700-BarrelProof-20241007222100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:37, 8 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BarrelProof-20241008033700-BarrelProof-20241007222100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BarrelProof-20241008033700-BarrelProof-20241007222100"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Indefatigable-20241008154600-BarrelProof-20241008033700"></span>Nobody should complain about otherwise good edits that include "lazy" typography. Those edits are 100% OK and a net improvement to Wikipedia. Other editors who care about typography and MoS can clean up the markup and character choices later. Wikipedia is a collaborative project. <a href="/wiki/User:Indefatigable" title="User:Indefatigable">Indefatigable</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Indefatigable" title="User talk:Indefatigable">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Indefatigable-20241008154600-BarrelProof-20241008033700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:46, 8 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Indefatigable-20241008154600-BarrelProof-20241008033700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Indefatigable-20241008154600-BarrelProof-20241008033700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Isaacl-20241020014700-BarrelProof-20241007214600"></span>Using an asterisk to represent multiplication is programming language syntax; I don't think this is common or even well-known among non-programmers. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Isaacl&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Isaacl (page does not exist)">isaacl</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Isaacl" title="User talk:Isaacl">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Isaacl-20241020014700-BarrelProof-20241007214600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:47, 20 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Isaacl-20241020014700-BarrelProof-20241007214600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Isaacl-20241020014700-BarrelProof-20241007214600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241020104000-Isaacl-20241020014700"></span>I agree we should discourage use of "*" as a multiplication symbol. I agree it's easy to type, so if one editor writes "<i>y</i> = <i>m</i>*<i>x</i> + <i>c</i>" in an otherwise correct edit, the response should not be to revert that edit, but to replace it with "<i>y</i> = <i>mx</i> + <i>c</i>" or other approved alternative. <a href="/wiki/User:Dondervogel_2" title="User:Dondervogel 2">Dondervogel 2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondervogel_2" title="User talk:Dondervogel 2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Dondervogel_2-20241020104000-Isaacl-20241020014700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241020104000-Isaacl-20241020014700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondervogel_2-20241020104000-Isaacl-20241020014700"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Khajidha-20241112142800-Isaacl-20241020014700"></span>Using an asterisk for multiplication is absolutely known to non-programmers because that's what is used on the number pad on most keyboards in the US. --<a href="/wiki/User:Khajidha" title="User:Khajidha">User:Khajidha</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Khajidha" title="User talk:Khajidha">talk</a>) (<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Khajidha" title="Special:Contributions/Khajidha">contributions</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Khajidha-20241112142800-Isaacl-20241020014700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Khajidha-20241112142800-Isaacl-20241020014700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Khajidha-20241112142800-Isaacl-20241020014700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Redrose64-20241112181500-Khajidha-20241112142800"></span>Ah, but which came first - the <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1249182868">.mw-parser-output .keyboard-key{border:1px solid #aaa;border-radius:0.2em;box-shadow:0.1em 0.1em 0.2em rgba(0,0,0,0.1);background-color:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa);background-image:linear-gradient(to bottom,var(--background-color-neutral,#eaecf0),var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa),var(--background-color-neutral,#eaecf0));color:var(--color-base,#202122);padding:0.1em 0.3em;font-family:inherit;font-size:0.85em}</style><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">*</kbd> key, or its use in mathematical expressions? Forty-some years ago, I was taught that in computer code, the <code>*</code> character was chosen to avoid confusion with the letter <code>x</code>, since the <code>×</code> did not exist in either of the character sets that were in use at the time - ASCII and EBCDIC. It's the same with <code>/</code> vs. <code>÷</code> and indeed <code>-</code> vs. <code>−</code>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64"><span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Redrose64-20241112181500-Khajidha-20241112142800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Redrose64-20241112181500-Khajidha-20241112142800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Redrose64-20241112181500-Khajidha-20241112142800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241112235600-Redrose64-20241112181500"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1249182868"><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">*</kbd> appeared on many (but not all) early typewriters. When not present it was often replaced by a fraction key (1/2, 1/4, etc) Practically every computer terminal from the 1970s onward has a <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1249182868"><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">*</kbd> key - but that's probably due to it being used by Fortran (1957). Early teletype keyboards typically used <a href="/wiki/Baudot_code" title="Baudot code">Baudot code</a> encoding and did not have <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1249182868"><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">*</kbd> - but these were more for telecommunications rather than programming. Fortran was invented at IBM and used punch cards/tape using IBM's <a href="/wiki/BCDIC" class="mw-redirect" title="BCDIC">BCDIC</a>. The early variations of BCDIC had <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1249182868"><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">*</kbd>, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1249182868"><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">-</kbd> and <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1249182868"><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">/</kbd> but not <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1249182868"><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">+</kbd>. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1249182868"><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">+</kbd> was added soon after. My take is that BCDIC tried to encode whatever was commonly used on typewriters - subject to the limitation of using only 64 characters. Fortran then assigned functionality to whatever was in that set. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1249182868"><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">*</kbd> looked the most like <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1249182868"><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">x</kbd> without being a letter, so it got the job. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Stepho-wrs-20241112235600-Redrose64-20241112181500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241112235600-Redrose64-20241112181500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20241112235600-Redrose64-20241112181500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241113071500-Stepho-wrs-20241112235600"></span>It would really behoove participants here, instead of just speculating from the armchair, to take the radical step of doing some research to <i>actually find out the answer</i>. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1249182868"><kbd class="keyboard-key nowrap">*</kbd> has been used, in math, to mean multiplication for three hundred years. See the bottom of p. 66 of <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/2300111?seq=1">[1]</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241113071500-Stepho-wrs-20241112235600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241113071500-Stepho-wrs-20241112235600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241113071500-Stepho-wrs-20241112235600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Redrose64-20241113120200-EEng-20241113071500"></span>I didn't mention that paper, because I'm not in the habit of searching through 100-year-old academic journals. Now, 100-year-old <i>magazines</i> is a different matter, witness my stacks of boxes of <i><a href="/wiki/The_Railway_Magazine" title="The Railway Magazine">The Railway Magazine</a></i> back to 1902 (gaps between 1902 and 1939, complete from 1940 onward). --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64"><span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Redrose64-20241113120200-EEng-20241113071500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:02, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Redrose64-20241113120200-EEng-20241113071500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Redrose64-20241113120200-EEng-20241113071500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/FORTRAN" class="mw-redirect" title="FORTRAN"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chatul-20241113143500-Redrose64-20241112181500"></span>FORTRAN</a> was a decade earlier than <a href="/wiki/ASCII" title="ASCII">ASCII</a> and <a href="/wiki/EBCDIC" title="EBCDIC">EBCDIC</a>. What the first FORTRAN compiler used was the scientific <a href="/wiki/BCD_(character_encoding)" title="BCD (character encoding)">BCD</a> character set of the <a href="/wiki/IBM_704" title="IBM 704">IBM 704</a>, which replaced the older Percent (%) and Lozenge (<span class="nowrap"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r886049734"><span class="monospaced">U+2311</span> </span><span style="font-size:125%;line-height:1em">⌑</span> <span style="font-variant: small-caps; text-transform: lowercase;">SQUARE LOZENGE</span>) with parentheses. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Chatul" title="User:Chatul">Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chatul" title="User talk:Chatul">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Chatul-20241113143500-Redrose64-20241112181500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chatul-20241113143500-Redrose64-20241112181500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chatul-20241113143500-Redrose64-20241112181500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Misleading_shortcut" data-mw-thread-id="h-Misleading_shortcut-20241007004700"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Misleading_shortcut-20241007004700"></span>Misleading shortcut<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Misleading_shortcut-20241007004700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Misleading shortcut"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Common_mathematical_symbols" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007004700-Misleading_shortcut"></span>Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Common mathematical symbols</a> indicates that its shortcut is "MOS:COMMONMATH", but in fact <a href="/wiki/MOS:COMMONMATH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:COMMONMATH">MOS:COMMONMATH</a> links to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Common_mathematical_symbols" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Common mathematical symbols</a> (a different section on a different page, although partially covering the same topic), which also indicates "MOS:COMMONMATH" as its shortcut. Perhaps one of them must be renamed. — <a href="/wiki/User:Mikhail_Ryazanov" title="User:Mikhail Ryazanov">Mikhail Ryazanov</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mikhail_Ryazanov" title="User talk:Mikhail Ryazanov">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007004700-Misleading_shortcut" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:47, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007004700-Misleading_shortcut"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007004700-Misleading_shortcut"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Redrose64-20241007090000-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007004700"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Mikhail_Ryazanov" title="User:Mikhail Ryazanov">Mikhail Ryazanov</a>:</span> I have traced it to <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers&diff=prev&oldid=1121155193">this edit</a></span> nearly two years ago by <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish">SMcCandlish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">contribs</a>), which I have reverted. The two redirects <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MOS:COMMONMATH&redirect=no">MOS:COMMONMATH</a></span> and <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:COMMONMATH&redirect=no">WP:COMMONMATH</a></span> were created on the same day in January 2014 (although about twenty hours apart), the first by <a href="/wiki/User:BarrelProof" title="User:BarrelProof">BarrelProof</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BarrelProof" title="User talk:BarrelProof">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/BarrelProof" title="Special:Contributions/BarrelProof">contribs</a>) and the second by <a href="/wiki/User:Wavelength" title="User:Wavelength">Wavelength</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wavelength" title="User talk:Wavelength">talk</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Wavelength" title="Special:Contributions/Wavelength">contribs</a>) following <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_150#Common_mathematical_symbols" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 150">this discussion</a>. It seems that they were intentionally different - and have remained so ever since. If one of them should be repurposed to match the other after ten years, we would need a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFD">WP:RFD</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64"><span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Redrose64-20241007090000-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007004700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Redrose64-20241007090000-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007004700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Redrose64-20241007090000-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007004700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BarrelProof-20241007091700-Redrose64-20241007090000"></span>There must've been something that happened to instigate creation of those on the same day, but I have no recollection of it. —⁠ ⁠<a href="/wiki/User:BarrelProof" title="User:BarrelProof">BarrelProof</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BarrelProof" title="User talk:BarrelProof">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-BarrelProof-20241007091700-Redrose64-20241007090000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:17, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BarrelProof-20241007091700-Redrose64-20241007090000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BarrelProof-20241007091700-Redrose64-20241007090000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NebY-20241007112600-BarrelProof-20241007091700"></span>You'd observed that there are two MOS sections on the symbols and suggested merging them, Wavelength responded that both locations are appropriate and we could have two shortcuts instead, and no-one else said anything. <a href="/wiki/User:NebY" title="User:NebY">NebY</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NebY" title="User talk:NebY">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-NebY-20241007112600-BarrelProof-20241007091700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:26, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NebY-20241007112600-BarrelProof-20241007091700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NebY-20241007112600-BarrelProof-20241007091700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BarrelProof-20241007175000-NebY-20241007112600"></span>Thanks for the refresher. I think the two sections ought to at least mention each other in hatnotes, if not be merged. I just added the mentions. It is confusing that both of them are part of the MOS and both of them are sections of the MOS with the same heading: "Common mathematical symbols". Maybe they should become <a href="/w/index.php?title=MOS:COMMONMATH1&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MOS:COMMONMATH1 (page does not exist)">MOS:COMMONMATH<b>1</b></a> and <a href="/w/index.php?title=MOS:COMMONMATH2&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MOS:COMMONMATH2 (page does not exist)">MOS:COMMONMATH<b>2</b></a>?? Is there some way to express the difference between the purposes of those two? I notice that one of those is part of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers">Wikipedia:Manual of Style/<b>Dates and numbers</b></a> but says nothing at all about dates and numbers, so I suggest that it be merged into the other one. Mathematics is not synonymous with numbers. That section is about expressing operations and relationships and formatting variable names, not numbers. —⁠ ⁠<a href="/wiki/User:BarrelProof" title="User:BarrelProof">BarrelProof</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BarrelProof" title="User talk:BarrelProof">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-BarrelProof-20241007175000-NebY-20241007112600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:50, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BarrelProof-20241007175000-NebY-20241007112600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BarrelProof-20241007175000-NebY-20241007112600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NebY-20241007201000-BarrelProof-20241007175000"></span>Better with hatnotes, yes. Though mathematics != numbers, MOSNUM seems the natural place where readers might look for guidance on the symbols; after all, the less mathematically sophisticated we are, the more likely we are to think of the operators as things we use with numbers. I'd expected that MOSNUM would be more detailed but there's extra content in MOS too, so that's not a useful distinction. The chatty one and the formal one? <a href="/wiki/User:NebY" title="User:NebY">NebY</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NebY" title="User talk:NebY">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-NebY-20241007201000-BarrelProof-20241007175000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:10, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NebY-20241007201000-BarrelProof-20241007175000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NebY-20241007201000-BarrelProof-20241007175000"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><em><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SMcCandlish-20241008060400-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007004700"></span>Usually</em> having "MOS:<var style="padding-right: 1px;">FOO</var>" and "WP:<var style="padding-right: 1px;">FOO</var>" go to two different places is fine; the very reason we have the "MOS:" namespace (formerly pseudo-namespace) for MoS shortcuts is that MoS pages were sucking up too many of the mnemonically meanful shortcut strings in which "WP:<var style="padding-right: 1px;">FOO</var>" would for more editors bring to mind some non-MoS "WP:"-namespace material. Yes, use a disambiguation hatnote as needed; we have those for a reason. However, in this case, both targets are MoS sections, so both shortcuts should go to the same place, presumably the more detailed material. If the stuff at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Common_mathematical_symbols" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Common mathematical symbols</a> is simply a nutshell summary of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Common_mathematical_symbols" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers">Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Common mathematical symbols</a> (which is probably the case and should be the case) then the former needs no shortcut at all. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish"><b>SMcCandlish</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-SMcCandlish-20241008060400-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007004700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:04, 8 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SMcCandlish-20241008060400-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007004700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SMcCandlish-20241008060400-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007004700"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Discourage_postfix_plus?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Discourage_postfix_plus?-20241007212900"><span id="Discourage_postfix_plus.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Discourage_postfix_plus?-20241007212900"></span>Discourage postfix plus?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Discourage_postfix_plus?-20241007212900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Discourage postfix plus?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007212900-Discourage_postfix_plus?"></span>(motivated by the previous section) If there's any work to be done with combining/rearranging <a href="/wiki/MOS:COMMONMATH" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:COMMONMATH">MOS:COMMONMATH</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONMATH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONMATH">WP:COMMONMATH</a>, can we please also add that "over <i>N</i>" and "at least <i>N</i>" should use the standard notation <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">><i>N</i></q> and <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">≥<i>N</i></q> respectively (as, for example, <a href="/wiki/The_Chicago_Manual_of_Style" title="The Chicago Manual of Style">the CMOS</a> tells in <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/book/ed17/part1/ch03/psec083.html">3.83</a> and <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/book/ed17/part2/ch12/psec016.html">12.16</a>) instead of a postfix plus (<span class="example deprecated-content example-bad" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-removed, #8B0000);"><i>N</i>+</span>, which is ambiguous, inconsistent with other cases like <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk"><<i>N</i></q> and <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">~<i>N</i></q>, and doesn't seem to conform to any reputable style guide)? — <a href="/wiki/User:Mikhail_Ryazanov" title="User:Mikhail Ryazanov">Mikhail Ryazanov</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mikhail_Ryazanov" title="User talk:Mikhail Ryazanov">talk</a>) <a href="/wiki/User:Mikhail_Ryazanov" title="User:Mikhail Ryazanov">Mikhail Ryazanov</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mikhail_Ryazanov" title="User talk:Mikhail Ryazanov">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007212900-Discourage_postfix_plus?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:29, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007212900-Discourage_postfix_plus?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007212900-Discourage_postfix_plus?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241007221200-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007212900"></span>Has this issue come up a lot? <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241007221200-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007212900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:12, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241007221200-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007212900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241007221200-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007212900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007225400-EEng-20241007221200"></span>A while ago I've got <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=&diff=1104861233&oldid=prev">a revert</a></span> with a suggestive edit summary (that particular article has changed a lot since then, but I still stumble upon similar examples from time to time – if needed, I can put some effort to find specific examples). Also, a simple search for <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=insource%3A%2F%5B0-9%5D%5C%2B+%2F+prefix%3A%0A%3A">insource:/[0-9]\+ / prefix::</a></span> yields thousands of results (before timing out), only a small fraction of which are legitimate uses (or poorly formatted binary operations). — <a href="/wiki/User:Mikhail_Ryazanov" title="User:Mikhail Ryazanov">Mikhail Ryazanov</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mikhail_Ryazanov" title="User talk:Mikhail Ryazanov">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007225400-EEng-20241007221200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:54, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007225400-EEng-20241007221200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007225400-EEng-20241007221200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241007231000-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007225400"></span>Then the next question is: has time been wasted debating this question on multiple articles, or can they just be fixed on sight without fuss? If the latter, then <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT">no new MOS provision is needed, and therefore it is needful that there not be one</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241007231000-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007225400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:10, 7 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241007231000-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007225400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241007231000-Mikhail_Ryazanov-20241007225400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Numerals_in_a_sequence" data-mw-thread-id="h-Numerals_in_a_sequence-20241019201000"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Numerals_in_a_sequence-20241019201000"></span>Numerals in a sequence<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Numerals_in_a_sequence-20241019201000"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Numerals in a sequence"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jmc-20241019201000-Numerals_in_a_sequence"></span>'Phase 1' or Phase one'? This appears to be a case that's not explicitly covered. </p><p>The AP Stylebook recommends using figures for sequences in its section on "Numbers": "Also use figures in all tabular matter, and in statistical and sequential forms", from which I infer that for sequences, such as 'phase 1', figures should be used for clarity and consistency. </p><p>Similarly, chapter 9 of The Chicago Manual of Style advises using figures when referring to a sequence. </p><p>I propose adding similar explicit advice to this section of the MOS. </p><p>-- <a href="/wiki/User:Jmc" title="User:Jmc">Jmc</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jmc" title="User talk:Jmc">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Jmc-20241019201000-Numerals_in_a_sequence" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:10, 19 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jmc-20241019201000-Numerals_in_a_sequence"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jmc-20241019201000-Numerals_in_a_sequence"></span> </p> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241019220000-Jmc-20241019201000"></span>As usual, what's needed before something's added to MOS is examples of this being an issue on multiple articles -- see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT">WP:MOSBLOAT</a>. Are editors not able to work this out for themselves on individual articles? Anyway, why does the word "Phase" need this in particular? Why not "Section" and "Part" and any other words like that? <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>The advice from APA and CMS are great if you're making up a new sequence for your thesis, but that's not us. It's hard to imagine an article using a phrase like "Phase 1" or "Phase One" on its own -- that is, other than in imitation of the phrasing of sources. So follow the sources; for example, <a href="/wiki/Economic_Stabilization_Act_of_1970" title="Economic Stabilization Act of 1970">Economic Stabilization Act of 1970</a> refers to <i>Phase I</i> and <i>Phase II</i> and <i>Phase III</i>., because that's the form the Act uses. We're not going to override that in the name of consistency with other, unrelated articles. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241019220000-Jmc-20241019201000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:00, 19 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241019220000-Jmc-20241019201000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241019220000-Jmc-20241019201000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jmc-20241019222700-EEng-20241019220000"></span>To clarify: I'm using 'Phase' purely as an example. The issue of using figures for sequences applies to any sequence. including 'Section' and 'Part' - and other examples: "Game 3", of a sequence of nine; 'Chapter 9' of a sequence of 24; 'Week 4' of a limitless sequence.</dd> <dd>I raise this issue in the context of differing editorial practices in the <a href="/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal" title="British Post Office scandal">British Post Office scandal</a> article, where both figures and words have been used to reference the same phases and weeks of the inquiry. I sought guidance from the MOS and found none.</dd> <dd>I'd be content to follow the sources, without adding bloat to the MOS, if I could be confident that that's an accepted stylistic convention in this instance. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Jmc" title="User:Jmc">Jmc</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jmc" title="User talk:Jmc">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Jmc-20241019222700-EEng-20241019220000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:27, 19 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jmc-20241019222700-EEng-20241019220000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jmc-20241019222700-EEng-20241019220000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NebY-20241020145600-Jmc-20241019222700"></span>Such names are very often established by authoritative sources and constitute proper names; we should follow the sources rather than renaming them. Per EEng, we only need a MOS guideline if our sources don't provide clear names and either there is dissent among editors or consistency across articles would be of significant benefit. In the Post Office case, I see the phases have been titled Phase 1, Phase 2 etc by the inquiry<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/public-hearings-timeline">[2]</a> so unless the inquiry's inconsistent, we can follow that source. Still, I see that this is a live issue at that <a href="/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal" title="British Post Office scandal">British Post Office scandal</a> article, so it would be wrong to establish a new guideline or issue some sort of MOS talk-page ruling without the knowledge of the other editor; pinging <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:NebY" title="User:NebY">NebY</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NebY" title="User talk:NebY">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-NebY-20241020145600-Jmc-20241019222700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:56, 20 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NebY-20241020145600-Jmc-20241019222700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NebY-20241020145600-Jmc-20241019222700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Redrose64-20241020181800-NebY-20241020145600"></span>Between <a href="/wiki/The_Savages_(Doctor_Who)#Broadcast_and_reception" title="The Savages (Doctor Who)">May 1966</a> and <a href="/wiki/Survival_(Doctor_Who)#Broadcast_and_reception" title="Survival (Doctor Who)">December 1989</a>, multi-episode <i>Doctor Who</i> stories could have titles in any of the four combinations of (i) "Episode ..." or "Part ..."; (ii) numbers as figures or as words. The decision as to which format to use was probably in the hands of the series producer, but in our articles about each story, we give the actual title shown on screen - except that where the on-screen title is all-capitals, we reduce it to title case. Certain <i>Doctor Who</i> reference books do the same, so we're following the sources. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64"><span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Redrose64-20241020181800-NebY-20241020145600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:18, 20 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Redrose64-20241020181800-NebY-20241020145600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Redrose64-20241020181800-NebY-20241020145600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Herostratus-20241021132400-Redrose64-20241020181800"></span>The question raised was "differing editorial practices in the British Post Office scandal article". Sounds like a matter of internal consistency, which is different. For all manner of things -- this being one IMO -- we might not need consistency among articles, but it does look bad within articles. Surely we already have a rule addressing that general issue tho? <a href="/wiki/User:Herostratus" title="User:Herostratus">Herostratus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Herostratus" title="User talk:Herostratus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Herostratus-20241021132400-Redrose64-20241020181800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:24, 21 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Herostratus-20241021132400-Redrose64-20241020181800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Herostratus-20241021132400-Redrose64-20241020181800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gawaon-20241021163700-Herostratus-20241021132400"></span>I think we don't. In articles on TV series it's common to have expressions like "season 3" and "episode 7", which seem to go against our current wording (use words for numbers below 10). <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Gawaon-20241021163700-Herostratus-20241021132400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:37, 21 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gawaon-20241021163700-Herostratus-20241021132400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gawaon-20241021163700-Herostratus-20241021132400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jmc-20241021184700-Gawaon-20241021163700"></span>It is indeed a matter of internal consistency and it does look bad, as <a href="/wiki/User:Herostratus" title="User:Herostratus">Herostratus</a> says. Within the one article (<a href="/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal" title="British Post Office scandal">British Post Office scandal</a>), we have (e.g.) both "Phase 3 hearings" and "Phases five and six". Is there in fact a rule addressing this general issue? -- <a href="/wiki/User:Jmc" title="User:Jmc">Jmc</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jmc" title="User talk:Jmc">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Jmc-20241021184700-Gawaon-20241021163700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:47, 21 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jmc-20241021184700-Gawaon-20241021163700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jmc-20241021184700-Gawaon-20241021163700"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Khajidha-20241022131500-Gawaon-20241021163700"></span>From <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Numbers_as_figures_or_words" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers">Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Numbers as figures or words</a>: "Comparable values nearby one another should be all spelled out or all in figures, even if one of the numbers would normally be written differently." Unless you are dealing only with series with fewer than 10 seasons each with fewer than 10 episodes, it is more in line with MOS to give all season and episode numbers in digits rather than words. --<a href="/wiki/User:Khajidha" title="User:Khajidha">User:Khajidha</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Khajidha" title="User talk:Khajidha">talk</a>) (<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Khajidha" title="Special:Contributions/Khajidha">contributions</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Khajidha-20241022131500-Gawaon-20241021163700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:15, 22 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Khajidha-20241022131500-Gawaon-20241021163700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Khajidha-20241022131500-Gawaon-20241021163700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gawaon-20241022163900-Khajidha-20241022131500"></span>True, but series with less than ten seasons aren't all that rare, and there are also miniseries with less than ten episodes. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Gawaon-20241022163900-Khajidha-20241022131500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:39, 22 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gawaon-20241022163900-Khajidha-20241022131500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gawaon-20241022163900-Khajidha-20241022131500"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NebY-20241023082000-Khajidha-20241022131500"></span>Whether or not it's in line with MOSNUM, we frequently – I suspect in the vast majority of cases – give series/season and episode numbers in digits. I've been dipping into <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_articles/Media_and_drama#Television" title="Wikipedia:Good articles/Media and drama">Wikipedia:Good articles/Media and drama#Television</a>. Articles on individual episodes do routinely begin e.g. " the ninth and final episode of the first season" but with digits in the infobox. Articles on a season/series list episodes using digits, and articles on a show list series/seasons and episodes with digits, regardless of whether there are more or less than ten, in keeping with the examples in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Television#Episode_listing" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Television">Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Television#Episode listing</a>. Articles are often titled <i><show> season <n></i> where n is a digit, never a word, in accordance with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(television)#Season_articles" title="Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)">Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)#Season articles</a>. Sampling our <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_articles#Media" title="Wikipedia:Featured articles">WP:Featured articles#Media</a>, I see the same treatment in titles, infoboxes, and listings.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>I very much doubt that editors would accept changes to those FAs and GAs to bring them into line with <a href="/wiki/MOS:NUMERAL" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:NUMERAL">MOS:NUMERAL</a>, that FA and GA assessors will start to apply <a href="/wiki/MOS:NUMERAL" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:NUMERAL">MOS:NUMERAL</a> in such cases, that any move requests would succeed, or that <a href="/wiki/MOS:TV" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:TV">MOS:TV</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TVSEASON" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TVSEASON">WP:TVSEASON</a> will be brought into line with the current <a href="/wiki/MOS:NUMERAL" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:NUMERAL">MOS:NUMERAL</a>. Changing <a href="/wiki/MOS:NUMERAL" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:NUMERAL">MOS:NUMERAL</a> might be easier. <a href="/wiki/User:NebY" title="User:NebY">NebY</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NebY" title="User talk:NebY">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-NebY-20241023082000-Khajidha-20241022131500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:20, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NebY-20241023082000-Khajidha-20241022131500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NebY-20241023082000-Khajidha-20241022131500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gawaon-20241023170000-NebY-20241023082000"></span>I agree, a small addition to MOS:NUMERAL might be a good thing. <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Gawaon-20241023170000-NebY-20241023082000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gawaon-20241023170000-NebY-20241023082000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gawaon-20241023170000-NebY-20241023082000"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MapReader-20241023111600-Khajidha-20241022131500"></span>Your final sentence doesn't follow from your statement. It would be more in keeping with the MOS to give all in words. <a href="/wiki/User:MapReader" title="User:MapReader">MapReader</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MapReader" title="User talk:MapReader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-MapReader-20241023111600-Khajidha-20241022131500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MapReader-20241023111600-Khajidha-20241022131500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MapReader-20241023111600-Khajidha-20241022131500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SMcCandlish-20241124150400-Jmc-20241019201000"></span>Generally concur with EEng and NebY. It's clear that certain conventions adhere strongly to certain things, and these conventions will be readily apparent from the source material about those things. WP is not in a position to impose an artificial WP-invented consistency on them that makes no sense for those familiar with the subject (e.g. referring to "issue number seven" of a comic book or "the three ball" in a game of pool). Where nothing like a consistent convention can be observed for the topic at hand, then MOSNUM already provides us with a default to fall back to: use "one" through "nine", then "10" onward. This is the case with centuries, for example. There is no overwhelming source preference for either "third century BC[E]" or "3rd century BC[E]" in reliable sources. (Books tend to prefer the former, journals use the latter more than books do because journal publishers are more interested in compression/expediency. Scroll through first 10 pages of GScholar resuls <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22third+century+BC%22+OR+%223rd+century+BC%22+OR+%22third+century+BCE%22+OR+%223rd+century+BCE%22&btnG=">here</a> and see how much variance there is, and how frequent the numeral style is compared to "traditional" spelling-out. That said, GScholar searches do include some books as well as journals.) Following our default system, we naturally end up with "third century BC" and "12th century BC". (Of course, our material doesn't perfectly follow this; our editors are human, not robots. Well, mostly.) <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish"><b>SMcCandlish</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-SMcCandlish-20241124150400-Jmc-20241019201000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SMcCandlish-20241124150400-Jmc-20241019201000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SMcCandlish-20241124150400-Jmc-20241019201000"></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="μs_vs_us" data-mw-thread-id="h-μs_vs_us-20241030044400"><span id=".CE.BCs_vs_us"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-μs_vs_us-20241030044400"></span>μs vs us<span data-mw-comment-end="h-μs_vs_us-20241030044400"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: μs vs us"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DungeonLords-20241030044400-μs_vs_us"></span>Which style I should use for micro seconds? Does μs <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style%2FDates_and_numbers&section=39">relative to</a> "Do not use precomposed unit symbol characters"? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:DungeonLords&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:DungeonLords (page does not exist)">DungeonLords</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DungeonLords" title="User talk:DungeonLords">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-DungeonLords-20241030044400-μs_vs_us" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DungeonLords-20241030044400-μs_vs_us"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DungeonLords-20241030044400-μs_vs_us"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241030045300-DungeonLords-20241030044400"></span>The 2 characters "μ" and "s" are just fine. The precomposed symbols advice is to guard against particular fonts that combine them into a single character because many software readers for the sight impaired do not know all of these symbols. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Stepho-wrs-20241030045300-DungeonLords-20241030044400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241030045300-DungeonLords-20241030044400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20241030045300-DungeonLords-20241030044400"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SMcCandlish-20241124150900-DungeonLords-20241030044400"></span>But do use μ, not "u". The latter was something of an early-Internet halfassed approach, but we have Unicode now. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish"><b>SMcCandlish</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-SMcCandlish-20241124150900-DungeonLords-20241030044400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SMcCandlish-20241124150900-DungeonLords-20241030044400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SMcCandlish-20241124150900-DungeonLords-20241030044400"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Day,_date_month_format" data-mw-thread-id="h-Day,_date_month_format-20241104042800"><span id="Day.2C_date_month_format"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Day,_date_month_format-20241104042800"></span>Day, date month format<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Day,_date_month_format-20241104042800"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Day, date month format"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DocWatson42-20241104042800-Day,_date_month_format"></span>Greetings and felicitations. I assume that such constructions as "Wednesday, 24 February" are discouraged, but I can't find it in the text or the this page's archives. (The comma seems unnecessary to me.) May I please get confirmation or refutation? —<a href="/wiki/User:DocWatson42" title="User:DocWatson42">DocWatson42</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DocWatson42" title="User talk:DocWatson42">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-DocWatson42-20241104042800-Day,_date_month_format" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DocWatson42-20241104042800-Day,_date_month_format"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DocWatson42-20241104042800-Day,_date_month_format"></span> </p> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/MOS:DATEFORMAT" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:DATEFORMAT"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241104061600-DocWatson42-20241104042800"></span>MOS:DATEFORMAT</a> and <a href="/wiki/MOS:BADDATE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:BADDATE">MOS:BADDATE</a> cover the allowed and disallowed formats. Unless the day of the week is <i>vitally</i> important then we leave it out. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Stepho-wrs-20241104061600-DocWatson42-20241104042800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241104061600-DocWatson42-20241104042800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20241104061600-DocWatson42-20241104042800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DocWatson42-20241104074000-Stepho-wrs-20241104061600"></span>This specifically regards the "<a href="/wiki/Hadaka_Matsuri" title="Hadaka Matsuri">Hadaka Matsuri</a>" article, and its Konomiya Hadaka Matsuri infobox, which includes the days of the week. —<a href="/wiki/User:DocWatson42" title="User:DocWatson42">DocWatson42</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DocWatson42" title="User talk:DocWatson42">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-DocWatson42-20241104074000-Stepho-wrs-20241104061600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DocWatson42-20241104074000-Stepho-wrs-20241104061600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DocWatson42-20241104074000-Stepho-wrs-20241104061600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241104080600-DocWatson42-20241104074000"></span>Ah, the mysterious East. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241104080600-DocWatson42-20241104074000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241104080600-DocWatson42-20241104074000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241104080600-DocWatson42-20241104074000"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241104080200-DocWatson42-20241104042800"></span>Salutations and hugs and kisses to you too. <ul><li>If your question is whether day-of-week should be gratuitously included with dates for no particular reason, the answer is <i>No</i>. That is, if the day-of-week is somehow relevant to the narrative, sure, include it, but otherwise no.</li> <li>Assuming we're in some situation where (per the preceding) inclusion of day-of-week is indeed justified, maybe your question is how to append the D.O.W. <ul><li>If the date is <span class="nowrap"><i>February 24</i></span> or <span class="nowrap"><i>February 24, 2024</i></span>, then without doubt the right format is <i>Wednesday, February 24</i> or <i>Wednesday, February 24, 2024</i>.</li> <li>According to "Elite editing" <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://eliteediting.com/resources/grammar/commas-in-dates">[3]</a> (whoever they may be -- search the text "inverted style" on that page), the corresponding answers for <span class="nowrap"><i>24 February</i></span> and <span class="nowrap"><i>24 February 2024</i></span> are <span class="nowrap"><i>Wednesday, 24 February</i></span> and <span class="nowrap"><i>Wednesday, 24 February 2024</i></span>. To me that does seem right -- <span class="nowrap"><i>Wednesday 24 February 2024</i></span> (all run together, no commas at all) seems intolerable.</li></ul></li></ul></li></ul> <dl><dd>The question naturally arises as to whether MOS should offer advice on all the above. My answer, as usual, is provisionally <i>No</i>, per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT">WP:MOSBLOAT</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241104080200-DocWatson42-20241104042800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:02, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241104080200-DocWatson42-20241104042800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241104080200-DocWatson42-20241104042800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241104091800-EEng-20241104080200"></span>Looking at the article, the date is the 12th day of the Chinese year and the day of the week has no significance. I would remove the day of the week from all those dates in the infobox. For what it's worth, I spent most of the 1990s in Hong Kong/China. Major holidays based on the Chinese calendar treat the day of the week in the same way that we treat the day that Christmas falls on. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Stepho-wrs-20241104091800-EEng-20241104080200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241104091800-EEng-20241104080200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20241104091800-EEng-20241104080200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DocWatson42-20241104092100-Stepho-wrs-20241104091800"></span>Okay—will do. Thank you both. ^_^ —<a href="/wiki/User:DocWatson42" title="User:DocWatson42">DocWatson42</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DocWatson42" title="User talk:DocWatson42">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-DocWatson42-20241104092100-Stepho-wrs-20241104091800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DocWatson42-20241104092100-Stepho-wrs-20241104091800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DocWatson42-20241104092100-Stepho-wrs-20241104091800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jc3s5h-20241104165600-DocWatson42-20241104042800"></span>The new 18th edition of <i>The Chicago Manual of Style</i> gives advice about commas in dates in ¶ 6.14. When giving examples they mostly give examples with words after the end of the date so the punctuation at the end of the date is illustrated. Some examples: <ul><li>The hearing was scheduled for 2:30 p.m. on Friday, August 9, 2024.</li> <li>Monday, May 5, was a holiday; Tuesday the 6th was not.</li></ul></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Jc3s5h" title="User:Jc3s5h">Jc3s5h</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jc3s5h" title="User talk:Jc3s5h">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Jc3s5h-20241104165600-DocWatson42-20241104042800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jc3s5h-20241104165600-DocWatson42-20241104042800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jc3s5h-20241104165600-DocWatson42-20241104042800"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SMcCandlish-20241124151800-DocWatson42-20241104042800"></span>Concur with EEng on avoiding adding a rule about this, as more <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MOSBLOAT">WP:MOSBLOAT</a>. It's just a matter of basic writing sense, basic comma usage in competent English. Our MoS's purpose is not that of <i>CMoS</i> or <i>Fowler's</i>, trying to answer every imaginable usage question. Just those that have an impact on reader comprehensibility and/or recurrent editorial strife. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish"><b>SMcCandlish</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-SMcCandlish-20241124151800-DocWatson42-20241104042800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:18, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SMcCandlish-20241124151800-DocWatson42-20241104042800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SMcCandlish-20241124151800-DocWatson42-20241104042800"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Spacing_with_percentage_points" data-mw-thread-id="h-Spacing_with_percentage_points-20241105234900"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Spacing_with_percentage_points-20241105234900"></span>Spacing with percentage points<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Spacing_with_percentage_points-20241105234900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Spacing with percentage points"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Number_57-20241105234900-Spacing_with_percentage_points"></span>A question regarding spacing of percentage point (pp) usage. I have always assumed there is no space between the number and pp (e.g. 5.5pp not 5.5 pp), on the basis that you wouldn't put a space between a number and a percentage sign (5% not 5 %). There is no reference to this in the MOS, but the <a href="/wiki/Percentage_point" title="Percentage point">percentage point</a> article uses it unspaced. It might be good to have it clarified in the MOS as I see regular changes adding spacing, which I am not sure is correct. Cheers, <a href="/wiki/User:Number_57" title="User:Number 57"><span style="color: orange;">Number</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Number_57" title="User talk:Number 57"><span style="color: green;">5</span></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Number_57" title="Special:Contributions/Number 57"><span style="color: blue;">7</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Number_57-20241105234900-Spacing_with_percentage_points" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:49, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Number_57-20241105234900-Spacing_with_percentage_points"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Number_57-20241105234900-Spacing_with_percentage_points"></span> </p> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/MOS:PERCENT" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:PERCENT"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241105235400-Number_57-20241105234900"></span>MOS:PERCENT</a> says "omit space". <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Stepho-wrs-20241105235400-Number_57-20241105234900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:54, 5 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241105235400-Number_57-20241105234900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20241105235400-Number_57-20241105234900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Number_57-20241106002100-Stepho-wrs-20241105235400"></span>Perhaps I am missing something, but as far as I can see, it says to omit space when using the percentage symbol (%) but nothing about when using pp? <a href="/wiki/User:Number_57" title="User:Number 57"><span style="color: orange;">Number</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Number_57" title="User talk:Number 57"><span style="color: green;">5</span></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Number_57" title="Special:Contributions/Number 57"><span style="color: blue;">7</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Number_57-20241106002100-Stepho-wrs-20241105235400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Number_57-20241106002100-Stepho-wrs-20241105235400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Number_57-20241106002100-Stepho-wrs-20241105235400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241106014900-Number_57-20241106002100"></span>Apologies, I missed the "point" word in your question. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Stepho-wrs-20241106014900-Number_57-20241106002100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:49, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241106014900-Number_57-20241106002100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20241106014900-Number_57-20241106002100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241106182300-Number_57-20241105234900"></span>% is essentially a constant factor (.01), but <i>pp</i> is more like a unit so my intuition says it should be spaced. I note that the <a href="/wiki/Basis_point" title="Basis point">basis point</a> article uses a space before <i>bp</i> (mostly, anyway). I'll be interested to hear what others think. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241106182300-Number_57-20241105234900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:23, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241106182300-Number_57-20241105234900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241106182300-Number_57-20241105234900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241106210600-EEng-20241106182300"></span>You've got this back to front. Percent (%) is a standard unit symbol and should be spaced, whereas pp is a made up abbreviation, meaning you can put it anywhere you want, space or unspaced. I know MOSNUM says otherwise, which is WP's prerogative. In other words, if we need a rule, let's make one up and apply it, but there's no logic involved. <a href="/wiki/User:Dondervogel_2" title="User:Dondervogel 2">Dondervogel 2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondervogel_2" title="User talk:Dondervogel 2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Dondervogel_2-20241106210600-EEng-20241106182300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:06, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241106210600-EEng-20241106182300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondervogel_2-20241106210600-EEng-20241106182300"></span></dd></dl></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tony1-20241108111000-Number_57-20241105234900"></span>Dondervogel, "Percent (%) is a standard unit symbol and should be spaced". Huh? It's not an ISO unit symbol, is it. No spacing in English, unlike French. On pp, I agree with EEng: space it. <a href="/wiki/User:Tony1" title="User:Tony1"><b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tony1" title="User talk:Tony1"><span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Tony1-20241108111000-Number_57-20241105234900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tony1-20241108111000-Number_57-20241105234900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tony1-20241108111000-Number_57-20241105234900"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241108213600-Tony1-20241108111000"></span>Absolutely. When it comes to peepee, always space it <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=RPv2ffwAuGU#t=3m13s">[4]</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241108213600-Tony1-20241108111000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241108213600-Tony1-20241108111000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241108213600-Tony1-20241108111000"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241108124500-Tony1-20241108111000"></span>Yes, "%" is an ISO standard unit symbol. <a href="/wiki/User:Dondervogel_2" title="User:Dondervogel 2">Dondervogel 2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondervogel_2" title="User talk:Dondervogel 2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Dondervogel_2-20241108124500-Tony1-20241108111000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241108124500-Tony1-20241108111000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondervogel_2-20241108124500-Tony1-20241108111000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gawaon-20241108131400-Dondervogel_2-20241108124500"></span>What is it the unit of? <a href="/wiki/User:Gawaon" title="User:Gawaon">Gawaon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gawaon" title="User talk:Gawaon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Gawaon-20241108131400-Dondervogel_2-20241108124500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:14, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gawaon-20241108131400-Dondervogel_2-20241108124500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gawaon-20241108131400-Dondervogel_2-20241108124500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Redrose64-20241108195800-Gawaon-20241108131400"></span>Nothing. It's a <a href="/wiki/Dimensionless_quantity" title="Dimensionless quantity">dimensionless quantity</a>. To the original q: I don't see "pp" used often, in fact rarely. It's probably better written out in full on first use, and if there are subsequent uses, follow the guidance at <a href="/wiki/MOS:ACRO1STUSE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:ACRO1STUSE">MOS:ACRO1STUSE</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64"><span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Redrose64-20241108195800-Gawaon-20241108131400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Redrose64-20241108195800-Gawaon-20241108131400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Redrose64-20241108195800-Gawaon-20241108131400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Number_57-20241108222500-Redrose64-20241108195800"></span>It's used widely in election infoboxes where there isn't space to write it out. <a href="/wiki/User:Number_57" title="User:Number 57"><span style="color: orange;">Number</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Number_57" title="User talk:Number 57"><span style="color: green;">5</span></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Number_57" title="Special:Contributions/Number 57"><span style="color: blue;">7</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Number_57-20241108222500-Redrose64-20241108195800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Number_57-20241108222500-Redrose64-20241108195800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Number_57-20241108222500-Redrose64-20241108195800"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241108221000-Gawaon-20241108131400"></span>I will answer Gawaon's valid question in two parts. The first part is a quotation from ISO 80000-1:2009 (emphasis added) <ul><li>In some cases, per cent, symbol %, where 1 % := 0,01, is used as a submultiple of the coherent unit one.</li> <li>EXAMPLE 4</li> <li>reflection factor, r = 83 % = 0,83</li> <li>Also, per mil (or per mille), symbol ‰, where 1 ‰ := 0,001, is used as a submultiple of the coherent unit one.Since the units “per cent” and “per mil” are numbers, it is meaningless to speak about, for example, percentage by mass or percentage by volume. Additional information, such as % (m/m) or % (V/V) shall therefore not be attached to <b>the unit symbol %</b>. See also 7.2. The preferred way of expressing, for example, a mass fraction is “the mass fraction of B is w B = 0,78” or “the mass fraction of B is wB = 78 %”. Furthermore, the term “percentage” shall not be used in a quantity name, because it is misleading. If a mass fraction is 0,78 = 78 %, is the percentage then 78 or 78 % = 0,78? Instead, the unambiguous term “fraction” shall be used. Mass and volume fractions can also be expressed in units such as µg/g = 10-6 or ml/m3 = 10-9.</li></ul></dd> <dd>Notice the deliberate space between numerical value (e.g., 83) and unit symbol (%). <a href="/wiki/User:Dondervogel_2" title="User:Dondervogel 2">Dondervogel 2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondervogel_2" title="User talk:Dondervogel 2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Dondervogel_2-20241108221000-Gawaon-20241108131400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241108221000-Gawaon-20241108131400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondervogel_2-20241108221000-Gawaon-20241108131400"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241108221600-Gawaon-20241108131400"></span>The second part is a partial retraction, quoting from ISO 80000-1:2022, which supersedes the 2009 document: <ul><li>If the quantity to be expressed is a sum or a difference of quantities, then either parentheses shall be used to combine the numerical values, placing the common unit symbol after the complete numerical value, or the expression shall be written as the sum or difference of expressions for the quantities.</li> <li>EXAMPLE 1</li> <li>l = 12 m - 7 m = (12 - 7) m = 5 m, not 12 - 7 m</li> <li>U = 230 ⋅ (1 + 5 %) V = 230 ⋅ 1,05 V ≈ 242 V, not U = 230 V + 5 %</li></ul></dd> <dd>The space is still there between numerical value (5) and percentage symbol (%), but I could not find an explicit reference to "%" as a unit symbol. I'm unsure how to interpret that change, but I'll report back here if I find further clarification. <a href="/wiki/User:Dondervogel_2" title="User:Dondervogel 2">Dondervogel 2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondervogel_2" title="User talk:Dondervogel 2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Dondervogel_2-20241108221600-Gawaon-20241108131400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:16, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241108221600-Gawaon-20241108131400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondervogel_2-20241108221600-Gawaon-20241108131400"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241108223800-Gawaon-20241108131400"></span>I found this in <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.nist.gov/pml/special-publication-811/nist-guide-si-chapter-7-rules-and-style-conventions-expressing-values#">NIST Special Publication 811</a> <ul><li>In keeping with Ref. [4: ISO 31-0], this Guide takes the position that it is acceptable to use the internationally recognized symbol % (percent) for the number 0.01 with the SI and thus to express the values of quantities of dimension one (see Sec. 7.14) with its aid. When it is used, a space is left between the symbol % and the number by which it is multiplied [4: ISO 31-0]. Further, in keeping with Sec. 7.6, the symbol % should be used, not the name "percent."</li> <li>Example: xB = 0.0025 = 0.25 % but not: xB = 0.0025 = 0.25% or xB = 0.25 percent</li> <li>Note: xB is the quantity symbol for amount-of-substance fraction of B (see Sec. 8.6.2).</li> <li>Because the symbol % represents simply a number, it is not meaningful to attach information to it (see Sec. 7.4). One must therefore avoid using phrases such as "percentage by weight," "percentage by mass," "percentage by volume," or "percentage by amount of substance." Similarly, one must avoid writing, for example, "% (m/m)," "% (by weight)," "% (V/V)," "% (by volume)," or "% (mol/mol)." The preferred forms are "the mass fraction is 0.10," or "the mass fraction is 10 %," or "wB = 0.10," or "wB =10 %" (wB is the quantity symbol for mass fraction of B—see Sec. 8.6.10); "the volume fraction is 0.35," or "the volume fraction is 35 %," or " φB = 0.35," or "φB = 35 %" (φB is the quantity symbol for volume fraction of B—see Sec. 8.6.6); and "the amount-of-substance fraction is 0.15," or "the amount-of-substance fraction is 15 %," or "xB = 0.15," or "xB = 15 %." Mass fraction, volume fraction, and amount-of-substance fraction of B may also be expressed as in the following examples: wB = 3 g/kg; φB = 6.7 mL/L; xB = 185 mmol/mol. Such forms are highly recommended (see also Sec. 7.10.3).</li> <li>In the same vein, because the symbol % represents simply the number 0.01, it is incorrect to write, for example, "where the resistances R1 and R2 differ by 0.05 %," or "where the resistance R1 exceeds the resistance R2 by 0.05 %." Instead, one should write, for example, "where R1 = R2 (1 + 0.05 %)," or define a quantity Δ via the relation Δ = (R1 - R2) / R2 and write "where Δ = 0.05 %." Alternatively, in certain cases,the word "fractional" or "relative" can be used. For example, it would be acceptable to write "the fractional increase in the resistance of the 10 kΩ reference standard in 2006 was 0.002 %."</li></ul></dd> <dd>As with ISO 80000-1:2022, there is always a space between numerical value (e.g., 35) and the percentage symbol (%), but no mention of % as a unit symbol. <a href="/wiki/User:Dondervogel_2" title="User:Dondervogel 2">Dondervogel 2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondervogel_2" title="User talk:Dondervogel 2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Dondervogel_2-20241108223800-Gawaon-20241108131400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241108223800-Gawaon-20241108131400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondervogel_2-20241108223800-Gawaon-20241108131400"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241108232900-Dondervogel_2-20241108223800"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">there is always a space between numerical value (e.g., 35) and the percentage symbol (%)</q> – Maybe in NIST-world, but not here on Wikipedia (see <a href="/wiki/MOS:PERCENT" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:PERCENT">MOS:PERCENT</a>), so I don't see how any of that helps us with the issue at hand. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241108232900-Dondervogel_2-20241108223800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241108232900-Dondervogel_2-20241108223800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241108232900-Dondervogel_2-20241108223800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241109002400-EEng-20241108232900"></span>I was correcting a misconception that % is not a unit symbol when it is. At least it was until 2022. I find it best not to leave incorrect statements unchallenged or they take on a life of their own. <a href="/wiki/User:Dondervogel_2" title="User:Dondervogel 2">Dondervogel 2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondervogel_2" title="User talk:Dondervogel 2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Dondervogel_2-20241109002400-EEng-20241108232900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241109002400-EEng-20241108232900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondervogel_2-20241109002400-EEng-20241108232900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241109004400-Dondervogel_2-20241109002400"></span>Um, OK, but you do realize that WP does not follow NIST's advice about spacing it, yes? <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241109004400-Dondervogel_2-20241109002400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:44, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241109004400-Dondervogel_2-20241109002400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241109004400-Dondervogel_2-20241109002400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241109094100-EEng-20241109004400"></span>Yep, and I wasn't trying to change that. My contributions have been to <ul><li>correct a factual error (yours)</li> <li>respond to questions from Tony and Gawaon</li></ul></dd> <dd>I have not weighed in on the main thread regarding percentage points because I don't expect my opinion (based not on NIST's utterings but on the ISO standards on which they are based) to be taken seriously, so why would I waste my e-breath? <a href="/wiki/User:Dondervogel_2" title="User:Dondervogel 2">Dondervogel 2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondervogel_2" title="User talk:Dondervogel 2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Dondervogel_2-20241109094100-EEng-20241109004400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:41, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241109094100-EEng-20241109004400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondervogel_2-20241109094100-EEng-20241109004400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SMcCandlish-20241124152400-Number_57-20241105234900"></span>It is not conventional to space "%" in English. Nearly no publishers do this, and our MoS doesn't say to do this or incidentally illustrating doing this, so don't do this. "pp" here is a unit abbreviation for <i>percentage point</i> ("the unit for the arithmetic difference between two percentages)", so space it. % is not a unit abbreviation/symbol, but a quantity symbol, so it's in a different class. It's more like the ~ in "~5 ml". That the spelled-out equivalent "approximately", like the spelled out "per[]cent", is spaced apart from the numeral is irrelevant. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish"><b>SMcCandlish</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-SMcCandlish-20241124152400-Number_57-20241105234900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SMcCandlish-20241124152400-Number_57-20241105234900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SMcCandlish-20241124152400-Number_57-20241105234900"></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="UNITSYMBOLS_(1_×_3_×_6_m):_“each_number_should_be_followed_by_a_unit_name_or_symbol”" data-mw-thread-id="h-UNITSYMBOLS_(1_×_3_×_6_m):_“each_number_should_be_followed_by_a_unit_name_or-20241111041700"><span id="UNITSYMBOLS_.281_.C3.97_3_.C3.97_6_m.29:_.E2.80.9Ceach_number_should_be_followed_by_a_unit_name_or_symbol.E2.80.9D"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-UNITSYMBOLS_(1_×_3_×_6_m):_“each_number_should_be_followed_by_a_unit_name_or-20241111041700"></span>UNITSYMBOLS (1 × 3 × 6 m): “each number should be followed by a unit name or symbol”<span data-mw-comment-end="h-UNITSYMBOLS_(1_×_3_×_6_m):_“each_number_should_be_followed_by_a_unit_name_or-20241111041700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: UNITSYMBOLS (1 × 3 × 6 m): “each number should be followed by a unit name or symbol”"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/MOS:UNITSYMBOLS" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:UNITSYMBOLS"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-HTGS-20241111041700-UNITSYMBOLS_(1_×_3_×_6_m):_“each_number_should_be_followed_by_a_unit_name_or"></span>MOS:UNITSYMBOLS</a> currently requires a unit symbol after each value when listing dimensions separated by <span class="nounderlines" style="border: 1px solid var(--border-color-muted,#ddd); color: var(--color-base); background-color: var( --background-color-neutral-subtle, #fdfdfd); padding: 1px 1px;">×</span> (“<span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">1 m × 3 m × 6 m</span>, not <span class="nowrap"> <span class="example deprecated-content example-bad" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-removed, #8B0000);">1 × 3 × 6 m</span></span>”). Could we have a carveout from this rule, and allow editors to use only a final unit when writing for infoboxes, and perhaps other places where space is limited? </p><p>Context: <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_mobile_phone" title="Template:Infobox mobile phone">Infobox mobile phone</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> currently has a preference for listing the dimensions of the product each on a separate line. This, and other parameters, can make the infobox <em>very</em> long. This is especially problematic for pages that cover multiple products or versions of a product; see dimensions in <a href="/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_S21" title="Samsung Galaxy S21">Samsung Galaxy S21</a> infobox. In order to cut down these infoboxes, we could be using a single line for all three dimensions, but the unit after each value feels unnecessary, and can cause line overflow. </p><p>Prior discussion: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_145#Repeating_units_in_ranges_and_dimensions" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 145">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 145#Repeating units in ranges and dimensions</a>, where the potential for confusion with actually <em>multiplying</em> values was pointed out. I think this is a minor concern in general, but worth considering in prose, or in contexts where the values could be ambiguous. <span style="font-family:Avenir, sans-serif">— <span style="border-radius:5px;padding:.1em .4em;background:#faeded"><a href="/wiki/User:HTGS" title="User:HTGS">HTGS</a></span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HTGS" title="User talk:HTGS">talk</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-HTGS-20241111041700-UNITSYMBOLS_(1_×_3_×_6_m):_“each_number_should_be_followed_by_a_unit_name_or" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:17, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-HTGS-20241111041700-UNITSYMBOLS_(1_×_3_×_6_m):_“each_number_should_be_followed_by_a_unit_name_or"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-HTGS-20241111041700-UNITSYMBOLS_(1_×_3_×_6_m):_“each_number_should_be_followed_by_a_unit_name_or"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241111121300-HTGS-20241111041700"></span>Where space is limited, it makes sense to present a single compound unit, equal to the product of the separate units. For the example given, the compound unit symbol would be m<sup>3</sup>. <a href="/wiki/User:Dondervogel_2" title="User:Dondervogel 2">Dondervogel 2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondervogel_2" title="User talk:Dondervogel 2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Dondervogel_2-20241111121300-HTGS-20241111041700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:13, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241111121300-HTGS-20241111041700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondervogel_2-20241111121300-HTGS-20241111041700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241111224000-Dondervogel_2-20241111121300"></span>Who ever heard of a phone advertised as 5 cc ? People are more interested in it being wide and tall but very thin. This necessitates stating each individual dimension. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Stepho-wrs-20241111224000-Dondervogel_2-20241111121300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:40, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241111224000-Dondervogel_2-20241111121300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20241111224000-Dondervogel_2-20241111121300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241111224700-Stepho-wrs-20241111224000"></span>No, what Dvogel means is you'd write that a certain phone measures <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk"><span class="nowrap">146 x 71.5 x 7.65 mm<sup>3</sup></span></q>. Having clarified that, I'm bound to say that that would, of course, confuse 99% of our readers. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241111224700-Stepho-wrs-20241111224000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241111224700-Stepho-wrs-20241111224000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241111224700-Stepho-wrs-20241111224000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241111233000-EEng-20241111224700"></span>Gotcha. As well as confusing most readers, it would also be different to <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk"><span class="nowrap">1 by 3 by 6 m</span></q>, which is allowed. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Stepho-wrs-20241111233000-EEng-20241111224700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:30, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241111233000-EEng-20241111224700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20241111233000-EEng-20241111224700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241111233900-Stepho-wrs-20241111233000"></span>To be clear for those playing along at home, while the canonical formuations are <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk"><span class="nowrap">1 m by 3 m by 6 m</span></q> and <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk"><span class="nowrap">1 m x 3 m x 6 m</span></q>, MOS currently makes an exception allowing <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk"><span class="nowrap">1 by 3 by 6 m</span></q> (specifically in the case where all the quantities are in the same unit -- in this case metres), but no corresponding exception allowing <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk"><span class="nowrap">1 x 3 x 6 m</span></q>. While it may offend purists, I really don't see why the exception shouldn't be extended to that last case as well. Thoughts? <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241111233900-Stepho-wrs-20241111233000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241111233900-Stepho-wrs-20241111233000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241111233900-Stepho-wrs-20241111233000"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241111234200-EEng-20241111224700"></span>Thank you for clarifying my intent. And for making me chuckle. LoL</dd> <dd>For a 3 dimensional object, one can write either 146 mm x 71.5 mm x 7.65 mm or 146 x 71.5 x 7.65 mm<sup>3</sup>. I agree the former is clearer, but the latter uses less space, which can be a consideration. There is no difference in meaning.</dd> <dd>I guess one could also write 146 x 71.5 x 7.65 mm, but then we have a length, not a volume. It would be clearer to write that length as 79.86 m. <a href="/wiki/User:Dondervogel_2" title="User:Dondervogel 2">Dondervogel 2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondervogel_2" title="User talk:Dondervogel 2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Dondervogel_2-20241111234200-EEng-20241111224700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:42, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241111234200-EEng-20241111224700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondervogel_2-20241111234200-EEng-20241111224700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241111235600-Dondervogel_2-20241111234200"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">one could also write <span class="nowrap">146 x 71.5 x 7.65 mm</span>, but then we have a length, not a volume</q> – Formally perhaps, but you could say the pretty much the same about <span class="nowrap"> 146 by 71.5 by 7.65 mm</span>, and yet we allow it. No one will think that <span class="nowrap">146 x 71.5 x 7.65 mm</span> means the length 79.86<span class="nowrap"> </span>m (i.e. 79860<span class="nowrap"> </span>mm). In context readers will understand it for what it is. I'd like to hear what others think about my proposal. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241111235600-Dondervogel_2-20241111234200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:56, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241111235600-Dondervogel_2-20241111234200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241111235600-Dondervogel_2-20241111234200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr.choppers-20241114043600-EEng-20241111235600"></span>Seconded EEng's proposal - simple and clear. <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;"><a href="/wiki/User:Mr.choppers" title="User:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;"><b> Mr.choppers | </b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr.choppers" title="User talk:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;">✎ </span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Mr.choppers-20241114043600-EEng-20241111235600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr.choppers-20241114043600-EEng-20241111235600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr.choppers-20241114043600-EEng-20241111235600"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Johnuniq-20241114055100-EEng-20241111235600"></span>EEng is, of course, correct. At <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Convert" title="Template:Convert">convert</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> we sometimes are asked how the duplicate mm units can be removed to save space (the trick is to use <code>xx</code> in convert) and we tell them that omitting repeated units is ok if space is limited. May as well make it official. <a href="/wiki/User:Johnuniq" title="User:Johnuniq">Johnuniq</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Johnuniq" title="User talk:Johnuniq">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Johnuniq-20241114055100-EEng-20241111235600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Johnuniq-20241114055100-EEng-20241111235600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Johnuniq-20241114055100-EEng-20241111235600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20241114063700-Johnuniq-20241114055100"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">EEng is, of course, correct.</q> – Of course -- <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/?oldid=1257030023#correct">even Dondervogel says so</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-EEng-20241114063700-Johnuniq-20241114055100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20241114063700-Johnuniq-20241114055100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20241114063700-Johnuniq-20241114055100"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241114055300-EEng-20241111235600"></span>I also support the proposal. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Stepho-wrs-20241114055300-EEng-20241111235600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241114055300-EEng-20241111235600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20241114055300-EEng-20241111235600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Toadspike-20241118173100-Dondervogel_2-20241111121300"></span>I thought this was a joke and burst out laughing on a train, which got me a weird look from a fellow passenger. Anyhow, I too support allowing the single unit after x symbols per EEng and John. <a href="/wiki/User:Toadspike" title="User:Toadspike"><span style="color:#21a81e;font-variant: small-caps;font-weight:bold;"><b>Toadspike</b></span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Toadspike" title="User talk:Toadspike"><span style="color:#21a81e;font-variant: small-caps;font-weight:bold;">[Talk]</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Toadspike-20241118173100-Dondervogel_2-20241111121300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:31, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Toadspike-20241118173100-Dondervogel_2-20241111121300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Toadspike-20241118173100-Dondervogel_2-20241111121300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-HTGS-20241118233400-Toadspike-20241118173100"></span>:( <span style="font-family:Avenir, sans-serif">— <span style="border-radius:5px;padding:.1em .4em;background:#faeded"><a href="/wiki/User:HTGS" title="User:HTGS">HTGS</a></span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HTGS" title="User talk:HTGS">talk</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-HTGS-20241118233400-Toadspike-20241118173100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-HTGS-20241118233400-Toadspike-20241118173100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-HTGS-20241118233400-Toadspike-20241118173100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tony1-20241114094700-HTGS-20241111041700"></span>It's tiresome to have to write (and read) units multiple times when multiplication signs are used. <a href="/wiki/User:Tony1" title="User:Tony1"><b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tony1" title="User talk:Tony1"><span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Tony1-20241114094700-HTGS-20241111041700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tony1-20241114094700-HTGS-20241111041700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tony1-20241114094700-HTGS-20241111041700"></span></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-HTGS-20241118233400-HTGS-20241111041700"></span>As the person who proposed this in the first place, I too support EEng’s proposal. I will carry on working on the infobox, and leave the written MOS to others. I imagine the purists might be happy if we left some comment or endnote about making sure the measurements are not potentially ambiguous though?</li></ul> <dl><dd>And, for anyone who cares, there are already pages where this is in sensible use: <a href="/wiki/List_of_photographic_film_formats" title="List of photographic film formats">List of photographic film formats</a>. <span style="font-family:Avenir, sans-serif">— <span style="border-radius:5px;padding:.1em .4em;background:#faeded"><a href="/wiki/User:HTGS" title="User:HTGS">HTGS</a></span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HTGS" title="User talk:HTGS">talk</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-HTGS-20241118233400-HTGS-20241111041700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-HTGS-20241118233400-HTGS-20241111041700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-HTGS-20241118233400-HTGS-20241111041700"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Do_we_have_to_convert_inches_for_wheels?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Do_we_have_to_convert_inches_for_wheels?-20241113172400"><span id="Do_we_have_to_convert_inches_for_wheels.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Do_we_have_to_convert_inches_for_wheels?-20241113172400"></span>Do we have to convert inches for wheels?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Do_we_have_to_convert_inches_for_wheels?-20241113172400"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Do we have to convert inches for wheels?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr.choppers-20241113172400-Do_we_have_to_convert_inches_for_wheels?"></span>I see people adding conversions to mentions of screen sizes and wheel dimensions - is this really necessary? Even in <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.reifen.com/de-de/auto/reifen/dimension/15-zoll">Germany</a> or <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.evocycles.co.nz/Product/575997/polygon-strattos-s4-disc-white">New Zealand</a>, automobile and bike wheels are universally referred to by inches; rim diameters are expressly <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/tyres/tyres-glance_en#how-to-read-the-tyre-parameters">defined in inches in the EU regulations</a>. To me, adding conversions for these types of dimensions adds unnecessary clutter, harming readability for no return whatsoever. I haven't read the entire MOS today, apologies if I missed a mention of these situations. <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;"><a href="/wiki/User:Mr.choppers" title="User:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;"><b> Mr.choppers | </b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr.choppers" title="User talk:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;">✎ </span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Mr.choppers-20241113172400-Do_we_have_to_convert_inches_for_wheels?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr.choppers-20241113172400-Do_we_have_to_convert_inches_for_wheels?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr.choppers-20241113172400-Do_we_have_to_convert_inches_for_wheels?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Donald_Albury-20241113174300-Mr.choppers-20241113172400"></span>It looks like sizing bike wheels in inches is not universal. I see many charts in the I-net such as <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.bikelockwiki.com/bike-wheel-sizes/">this</a> that use both metric and imperial/American units for bike wheels and tires. Whether the convert template handles them correctly is another issue. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Donald_Albury" title="User talk:Donald Albury">Donald Albury</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Donald_Albury-20241113174300-Mr.choppers-20241113172400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Donald_Albury-20241113174300-Mr.choppers-20241113172400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Donald_Albury-20241113174300-Mr.choppers-20241113172400"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Redrose64-20241113191000-Mr.choppers-20241113172400"></span>On the matter of wheel sizes, not all are inches. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_210#c-Mr.choppers-20240115212900-Muboshgu-20240115194600" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 210">this post</a> and my reply. Even for a conventional non-Denovo wheel, the dimensions are a bastard mixture: "195/65 R 15" means a tyre that is 195 mm wide on a 15-inch rim. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64"><span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Redrose64-20241113191000-Mr.choppers-20241113172400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Redrose64-20241113191000-Mr.choppers-20241113172400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Redrose64-20241113191000-Mr.choppers-20241113172400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr.choppers-20241114043300-Redrose64-20241113191000"></span>Yes, there is the Michelin TRX and the Denovo. Just as we wouldn't convert the "195" when we write 195/60 R15, I don't think we ought to convert the diameter either. I would treat all of these tire dimensions as one would nominal measurements, rather than inserting unnecessary templates. Bicycle tires, meanwhile, proved more varied than I was aware of. <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;"><a href="/wiki/User:Mr.choppers" title="User:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;"><b> Mr.choppers | </b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr.choppers" title="User talk:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;">✎ </span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Mr.choppers-20241114043300-Redrose64-20241113191000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr.choppers-20241114043300-Redrose64-20241113191000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr.choppers-20241114043300-Redrose64-20241113191000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Avi8tor-20241114114000-Mr.choppers-20241114043300"></span>I agree with Mr.Choppers on this subject. I think wheels sizes on cars are a compromise between the USA and the rest of the world. There are metric rims on older vehicles but pretty rare on new vehicles. <a href="/wiki/User:Avi8tor" title="User:Avi8tor">Avi8tor</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Avi8tor" title="User talk:Avi8tor">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Avi8tor-20241114114000-Mr.choppers-20241114043300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Avi8tor-20241114114000-Mr.choppers-20241114043300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Avi8tor-20241114114000-Mr.choppers-20241114043300"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr.choppers-20241114133600-Avi8tor-20241114114000"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Avi8tor" title="User:Avi8tor">Avi8tor</a>:</span> - I was actually triggered by you converting screen dimensions, but five minutes online showed me that the modern world has indeed begun dropping the use of inches for screens. My gut was wrong. <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;"><a href="/wiki/User:Mr.choppers" title="User:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;"><b> Mr.choppers | </b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr.choppers" title="User talk:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;">✎ </span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Mr.choppers-20241114133600-Avi8tor-20241114114000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr.choppers-20241114133600-Avi8tor-20241114114000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr.choppers-20241114133600-Avi8tor-20241114114000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Avi8tor-20241116175700-Mr.choppers-20241114133600"></span>Many people around the planet know only millimetres, so it makes sense to have both. I notice in France the data information on television screen size have it in both inches and millimetres. <a href="/wiki/User:Avi8tor" title="User:Avi8tor">Avi8tor</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Avi8tor" title="User talk:Avi8tor">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Avi8tor-20241116175700-Mr.choppers-20241114133600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:57, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Avi8tor-20241116175700-Mr.choppers-20241114133600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Avi8tor-20241116175700-Mr.choppers-20241114133600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tony1-20241122073000-Mr.choppers-20241113172400"></span>I agree with Aviator, who didn't mention that aviation uses "feet" for altitude—needs conversion in my view. <a href="/wiki/User:Tony1" title="User:Tony1"><b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tony1" title="User talk:Tony1"><span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Tony1-20241122073000-Mr.choppers-20241113172400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:30, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tony1-20241122073000-Mr.choppers-20241113172400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tony1-20241122073000-Mr.choppers-20241113172400"></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions" data-mw-thread-id="h-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions-20241116163800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions-20241116163800"></span>RfC Indian numbering conventions<span data-mw-comment-end="h-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions-20241116163800"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: RfC Indian numbering conventions"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span id="rfc_F76C352"></span><span id="rfctag"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kurzon-20241116163800-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"></p><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Dialog-information_on.svg/40px-Dialog-information_on.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Dialog-information_on.svg/60px-Dialog-information_on.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Dialog-information_on.svg/80px-Dialog-information_on.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><div class="wikipediauserbox" style="float:right;border:1px solid #d0d0d0;margin:1px;width:238px"><table role="presentation" style="border-collapse:collapse;width:238px;margin-bottom:0;margin-top:0;background:#e0e0e0;color:inherit"><tbody><tr><td style="border:0;width:45px;height:45px;background:#d0d0d0;text-align:center;font-size:14pt;font-weight:bold;color:black;padding:0 1px 0 0;line-height:1.25em;vertical-align:middle"><span class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Internet-group-chat.svg/48px-Internet-group-chat.svg.png" decoding="async" width="48" height="48" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Internet-group-chat.svg/72px-Internet-group-chat.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Internet-group-chat.svg/96px-Internet-group-chat.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></span></span></td><td style="border:0;text-align:left;font-size:8pt;padding:0 4px 0 4px;height:45px;line-height:1.25em;color:black;vertical-align:middle">Please consider joining the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Feedback_request_service" title="Wikipedia:Feedback request service">feedback request service</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></div><b>An editor has <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment">requested comments</a> from other editors for this discussion.</b> This page has been added to the following lists: <ul><li><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Economy,_trade,_and_companies" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Economy, trade, and companies">Economy, trade, and companies</a></b></li> <li><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Wikipedia_style_and_naming" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wikipedia style and naming">Wikipedia style and naming</a></b></li></ul> When discussion has <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Ending_RfCs" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment">ended</a>, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.</td></tr></tbody></table> <p>I am revisiting an issue that was last brought up 6 years ago <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_157#RfC_on_use_of_"crore"" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 157">here</a> and settled without a strong consensus. </p><p>I think we should avoid using Indian numbering conventions unless it is needed for context. For instance, if we want to list the box office take of an Indian movie, don't use "crore", use "millions". This isn't about disrespecting a culture, it's about using internationally favored notation and unit conventions. We should use "millions" instead of "crore" for the same reason we favor meters over feet. There is no reason that India-related articles should be an enclave of Indian conventions. People who are not Indian will struggle with these things, it will weaken Wikipedia's role as an information tool for everyone. </p><p>This is not the same thing as currency. It is appropriate to list an Indian movie's box office take in rupees. Providing a US$ conversion is optional, but a good idea since the US dollar is widely used around the world as a reserve currency. But write it as "millions of rupees", not "crores of rupees". <a href="/wiki/User:Kurzon" title="User:Kurzon">Kurzon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kurzon" title="User talk:Kurzon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Kurzon-20241116163800-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:38, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kurzon-20241116163800-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kurzon-20241116163800-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GoodDay-20241116164500-Kurzon-20241116163800"></span>What's the common usage in english? <a href="/wiki/User:GoodDay" title="User:GoodDay">GoodDay</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GoodDay" title="User talk:GoodDay">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-GoodDay-20241116164500-Kurzon-20241116163800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:45, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GoodDay-20241116164500-Kurzon-20241116163800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GoodDay-20241116164500-Kurzon-20241116163800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jc3s5h-20241116170000-GoodDay-20241116164500"></span>I don't think most people in the US understand what "crore" is, and would not recognize it as part of the English language. The online <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crore">Merriam-Webster dictionary</a> says it means ten million, specifically, a unit of value equal to ten million rupees or 100 lakhs. I think most people in the US would not even understand that a currency is being mentioned.</dd> <dd>--<a href="/wiki/User:Jc3s5h" title="User:Jc3s5h">Jc3s5h</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jc3s5h" title="User talk:Jc3s5h">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Jc3s5h-20241116170000-GoodDay-20241116164500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jc3s5h-20241116170000-GoodDay-20241116164500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jc3s5h-20241116170000-GoodDay-20241116164500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kurzon-20241116171500-Jc3s5h-20241116170000"></span>Not just people in the US. Nobody outside of India can be expected to know what a crore is. <a href="/wiki/User:Kurzon" title="User:Kurzon">Kurzon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kurzon" title="User talk:Kurzon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Kurzon-20241116171500-Jc3s5h-20241116170000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:15, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kurzon-20241116171500-Jc3s5h-20241116170000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kurzon-20241116171500-Jc3s5h-20241116170000"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241116175000-Kurzon-20241116163800"></span>We use meters over feet? Where?</dd> <dd><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237805129">.mw-parser-output .talkquote{color:var(--color-base,#202122);background-color:#eaf8f4;border-left:3px solid #008560;padding:0 .8em;margin:0}.mw-parser-output .talkquote-by,.mw-parser-output .talkquote-source{margin-left:1.6em}.mw-parser-output .skin-vector-2022 .talkquote>:last-child{padding-bottom:0}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}</style><blockquote class="talkquote"><p>In non-scientific articles with strong ties to the United States, the primary units are US customary (pounds, miles, feet, inches, etc.)</p></blockquote> <a href="/wiki/User:Aaron_Liu" title="User:Aaron Liu"><span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aaron_Liu#top" title="User talk:Aaron Liu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Aaron_Liu-20241116175000-Kurzon-20241116163800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241116175000-Kurzon-20241116163800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Aaron_Liu-20241116175000-Kurzon-20241116163800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Isaac_Rabinovitch-20241116182000-Aaron_Liu-20241116175000"></span>You get extra points for saying "US customary" and not "Imperial". 😉 <a href="/wiki/User:Isaac_Rabinovitch" title="User:Isaac Rabinovitch">Isaac Rabinovitch</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Isaac_Rabinovitch" title="User talk:Isaac Rabinovitch">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Isaac_Rabinovitch-20241116182000-Aaron_Liu-20241116175000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:20, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Isaac_Rabinovitch-20241116182000-Aaron_Liu-20241116175000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Isaac_Rabinovitch-20241116182000-Aaron_Liu-20241116175000"></span> <dl><dd><div style="font-size:85%;"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241116183000-Isaac_Rabinovitch-20241116182000"></span>imperial :3 <a href="/wiki/User:Aaron_Liu" title="User:Aaron Liu"><span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aaron_Liu#top" title="User talk:Aaron Liu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Aaron_Liu-20241116183000-Isaac_Rabinovitch-20241116182000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241116183000-Isaac_Rabinovitch-20241116182000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Aaron_Liu-20241116183000-Isaac_Rabinovitch-20241116182000"></span></div></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Avi8tor-20241116180300-Kurzon-20241116163800"></span>I agree with <a href="/wiki/U" title="U">Kurzon</a>, do not use "crore", use "millions". Wikipedia is for a worldwide audience. <a href="/wiki/User:Avi8tor" title="User:Avi8tor">Avi8tor</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Avi8tor" title="User talk:Avi8tor">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Avi8tor-20241116180300-Kurzon-20241116163800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:03, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Avi8tor-20241116180300-Kurzon-20241116163800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Avi8tor-20241116180300-Kurzon-20241116163800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241116181900-Avi8tor-20241116180300"></span>Kinda like how US units are used for US articles, I don't see the harm in using "crore", and it's way more work to manually convert to millions every time a member of India's vast diaspora in the Global North adds "crore" to an article, not knowing our ManualOfStyle. <a href="/wiki/User:Aaron_Liu" title="User:Aaron Liu"><span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aaron_Liu#top" title="User talk:Aaron Liu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Aaron_Liu-20241116181900-Avi8tor-20241116180300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:19, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241116181900-Avi8tor-20241116180300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Aaron_Liu-20241116181900-Avi8tor-20241116180300"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Isaac_Rabinovitch-20241116181800-Kurzon-20241116163800"></span>Except we don't favor meters over feet — we use both. That's what the <a href="/wiki/Template:Convert" title="Template:Convert">Convert template</a> is for.</dd> <dd>Speaking as a non-Indian, who can never remember what how many is a "crore": I'm fine with it, as long as the <a href="/wiki/Template:Crore" title="Template:Crore">international unit is also used</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Isaac_Rabinovitch" title="User:Isaac Rabinovitch">Isaac Rabinovitch</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Isaac_Rabinovitch" title="User talk:Isaac Rabinovitch">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Isaac_Rabinovitch-20241116181800-Kurzon-20241116163800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Isaac_Rabinovitch-20241116181800-Kurzon-20241116163800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Isaac_Rabinovitch-20241116181800-Kurzon-20241116163800"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241116204800-Kurzon-20241116163800"></span>We already make an exception for <a href="/wiki/Foot_(unit)" title="Foot (unit)">feet</a>. I see no good reason for barring a second exception. State in <a href="/wiki/Crore" title="Crore">crore</a> and convert to a unit non-Indians can understand (millions of <a href="/wiki/Rupee" title="Rupee">rupees</a>?). <a href="/wiki/User:Dondervogel_2" title="User:Dondervogel 2">Dondervogel 2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondervogel_2" title="User talk:Dondervogel 2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Dondervogel_2-20241116204800-Kurzon-20241116163800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:48, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241116204800-Kurzon-20241116163800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondervogel_2-20241116204800-Kurzon-20241116163800"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kurzon-20241116171400-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions"></span>The article for the French movie <i><a href="/wiki/Les_Visiteurs" title="Les Visiteurs">Les Visiteurs</a></i> lists the budget as "9.5 million", using a point as a decimal separator. In France they use commas for this, ie "9,5 million". We don't use the French notation convention for France-related articles. <a href="/wiki/User:Kurzon" title="User:Kurzon">Kurzon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kurzon" title="User talk:Kurzon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Kurzon-20241116171400-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:14, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kurzon-20241116171400-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kurzon-20241116171400-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241116175000-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span>Is it the French style to use that notation in English? A different unit elicits way less confusion than a reversed decimal separator meaning anyways. <a href="/wiki/User:Aaron_Liu" title="User:Aaron Liu"><span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aaron_Liu#top" title="User talk:Aaron Liu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Aaron_Liu-20241116175000-Kurzon-20241116171400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241116175000-Kurzon-20241116171400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Aaron_Liu-20241116175000-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-35.139.154.158-20241116182100-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span>Bad RFC</b>; see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFCNEUTRAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFCNEUTRAL">WP:RFCNEUTRAL</a> and the rest of the guidance there too. Unsurprisingly, this has just started out as a disorganized discussion that doesn't resemble a normal RFC...you might want to just remove the tag, get some feedback, and then start a proper one in a bit (separate subsections for discussion and survey are pretty helpful too). <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/35.139.154.158" title="Special:Contributions/35.139.154.158">35.139.154.158</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:35.139.154.158" title="User talk:35.139.154.158">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-35.139.154.158-20241116182100-Kurzon-20241116171400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-35.139.154.158-20241116182100-Kurzon-20241116171400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-35.139.154.158-20241116182100-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Redrose64-20241116183900-35.139.154.158-20241116182100"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Kurzon" title="User:Kurzon">Kurzon</a>:</span> I did <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&diff=prev&oldid=1257781055">advise you</a></span> not to jump straight for a full-blown thirty-day formal RfC without first exhausting the suggestions at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFCBEFORE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFCBEFORE">WP:RFCBEFORE</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64"><span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Redrose64-20241116183900-35.139.154.158-20241116182100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:39, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Redrose64-20241116183900-35.139.154.158-20241116182100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Redrose64-20241116183900-35.139.154.158-20241116182100"></span></dd></dl></li></ul> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Toadspike-20241116195800-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span>This RfC is clearly improperly formatted, <a href="/wiki/User:Kurzon" title="User:Kurzon">Kurzon</a>; thank you to our unregistered friend for pointing this out.</dd> <dd>Consistency and clarity to our international readership are valid arguments in favor of prohibiting "crore" and "lakh". However, Aaron Liu makes good points about the fact that we allow local variation in articles with local ties, e.g. all of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ENGVAR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ENGVAR">ENGVAR</a>. I am unsure where I sit on this issue. I would like to see some Indian editors weigh in on this. <a href="/wiki/User:Toadspike" title="User:Toadspike"><span style="color:#21a81e;font-variant: small-caps;font-weight:bold;"><b>Toadspike</b></span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Toadspike" title="User talk:Toadspike"><span style="color:#21a81e;font-variant: small-caps;font-weight:bold;">[Talk]</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Toadspike-20241116195800-Kurzon-20241116171400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Toadspike-20241116195800-Kurzon-20241116171400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Toadspike-20241116195800-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr.choppers-20241116200300-Toadspike-20241116195800"></span>I also agree that crores are too obscure (as are lakhs), with use limited to South Asia. Feet and inches, while retrograde and infinitely useless, were used across most of the world not many generations ago. The major unit in Japanese is 万 (man), which is 10,000, but we do not use that because most people wouldn't know it. Engvar is somewhat different: we cannot avoid choosing between "colour" and "color", for instance, whereas we can easily write the globally recognized "millions" rather than crores. As for <a href="/wiki/User:Aaron_Liu" title="User:Aaron Liu">User:Aaron Liu</a>'s comment: if someone adds crore, it will be there until fixed – it's not pressing enough of a problem to hunt down every instance. <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;"><a href="/wiki/User:Mr.choppers" title="User:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;"><b> Mr.choppers | </b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr.choppers" title="User talk:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;">✎ </span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Mr.choppers-20241116200300-Toadspike-20241116195800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:03, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr.choppers-20241116200300-Toadspike-20241116195800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr.choppers-20241116200300-Toadspike-20241116195800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Toadspike-20241116201500-Mr.choppers-20241116200300"></span>Good point about 万 – I completely forgot that Chinese has similarly different units. I think that settles it – either we allow crore and lakh alongside the <a href="/wiki/%E4%B8%87" class="mw-redirect" title="万">East Asian 万 and 亿</a> (which I think is ridiculous) and an infinite variety of customary units, or we allow none.</dd> <dd>(Two counterarguments: 1. This is a <a href="/wiki/Slippery_slope" title="Slippery slope">slippery slope</a> argument, which is a logical fallacy. To which I say no, we can't give only one country special treatment, we ought to be fair. 2. The East Asian units are non-Latin characters and thus more impractical than "crore". This is true.) <a href="/wiki/User:Toadspike" title="User:Toadspike"><span style="color:#21a81e;font-variant: small-caps;font-weight:bold;"><b>Toadspike</b></span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Toadspike" title="User talk:Toadspike"><span style="color:#21a81e;font-variant: small-caps;font-weight:bold;">[Talk]</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Toadspike-20241116201500-Mr.choppers-20241116200300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:15, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Toadspike-20241116201500-Mr.choppers-20241116200300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Toadspike-20241116201500-Mr.choppers-20241116200300"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241117011400-Mr.choppers-20241116200300"></span>On the subject of the myriad, I agree with Toads's second counterargument: there is no widely-recognized English translation for the unit in some "East Asian variant" of English; they just convert it to <a href="/wiki/Short_scale" class="mw-redirect" title="Short scale">short scale</a> in translations.<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"><blockquote class="talkquote"><p>we cannot avoid choosing between "colour" and "color", for instance, whereas we can easily write the globally recognized "millions" rather than crores.</p></blockquote>Part of my argument is that "crore" vs long scale is basically the same thing as "colour" vs "color": anonymous editors are going to add them. A ton. Expecting people to not use crore is like expecting people to not spell "colour". It's not pressing enough to hunt down, sure, but you're going to see sweet summer children adding crore into crore-free articles again and again and again. <a href="/wiki/User:Aaron_Liu" title="User:Aaron Liu"><span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aaron_Liu#top" title="User talk:Aaron Liu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Aaron_Liu-20241117011400-Mr.choppers-20241116200300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241117011400-Mr.choppers-20241116200300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Aaron_Liu-20241117011400-Mr.choppers-20241116200300"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Toadspike-20241116201600-Toadspike-20241116195800"></span>By the way, I've left a (neutrally-worded) note about this discussion at the Talk page of WikiProject India. <a href="/wiki/User:Toadspike" title="User:Toadspike"><span style="color:#21a81e;font-variant: small-caps;font-weight:bold;"><b>Toadspike</b></span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Toadspike" title="User talk:Toadspike"><span style="color:#21a81e;font-variant: small-caps;font-weight:bold;">[Talk]</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Toadspike-20241116201600-Toadspike-20241116195800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Toadspike-20241116201600-Toadspike-20241116195800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Toadspike-20241116201600-Toadspike-20241116195800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jc3s5h-20241116211600-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span>Don't allow crore.</b> In the interest of making articles understandable to a wider audience, we already do this for the decimal marker (.) and separator for groups of 3 digits (,) as previously mentioned. We also <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Other_numbers" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers">require the use of short-scale</a> even though long-scale hasn't entirely died out in the British Isles. <a href="/wiki/User:Jc3s5h" title="User:Jc3s5h">Jc3s5h</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jc3s5h" title="User talk:Jc3s5h">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Jc3s5h-20241116211600-Kurzon-20241116171400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jc3s5h-20241116211600-Kurzon-20241116171400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jc3s5h-20241116211600-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241117010400-Jc3s5h-20241116211600"></span>The decimal marker and long/short scale have a much better reason for their ban: The symbols they use have very different meanings outside of their local context, while crore, lakh, etc. do not. <a href="/wiki/User:Aaron_Liu" title="User:Aaron Liu"><span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aaron_Liu#top" title="User talk:Aaron Liu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Aaron_Liu-20241117010400-Jc3s5h-20241116211600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:04, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241117010400-Jc3s5h-20241116211600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Aaron_Liu-20241117010400-Jc3s5h-20241116211600"></span></dd></dl></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cinderella157-20241116223800-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span>Don't allow crore</b> Per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONALITY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONALITY">WP:COMMONALITY</a>. This is not comparable with US v metric units where we report both - that is just a case of which is primarily reported. Furthermore, imperial units have a relatively recent historical usage across English. It is not like other issues of ENGVAR such as colour v color or ise v ize that do not affect understanding. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">For an international encyclopedia, using vocabulary common to all varieties of English is preferable</q> - to the point of being paramount. <a href="/wiki/User:Cinderella157" title="User:Cinderella157">Cinderella157</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cinderella157" title="User talk:Cinderella157">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Cinderella157-20241116223800-Kurzon-20241116171400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:38, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cinderella157-20241116223800-Kurzon-20241116171400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cinderella157-20241116223800-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SchreiberBike-20241116231300-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span>Allow</b> <i>crore</i>, <i>lakh</i> and <a href="/wiki/Indian_numbering_system" title="Indian numbering system">Indian numbering system</a>, <b>but always</b>, 1) link it on first use, 2) include what it is a measure of (rupees can not be assumed), 3) also include conventional numbering, and 4) allow it only in articles about the subcontinent. <a href="/wiki/User:SchreiberBike" title="User:SchreiberBike">SchreiberBike </a>|<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SchreiberBike#top" title="User talk:SchreiberBike"> ⌨ </a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-SchreiberBike-20241116231300-Kurzon-20241116171400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SchreiberBike-20241116231300-Kurzon-20241116171400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SchreiberBike-20241116231300-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Toadspike-20241117135600-SchreiberBike-20241116231300"></span>I agree with all of these conditions. While I remain somewhat ambivalent on the use of “crore” in general, we must provide enough context for non-Indian readers to understand them. <a href="/wiki/User:Toadspike" title="User:Toadspike"><span style="color:#21a81e;font-variant: small-caps;font-weight:bold;"><b>Toadspike</b></span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Toadspike" title="User talk:Toadspike"><span style="color:#21a81e;font-variant: small-caps;font-weight:bold;">[Talk]</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Toadspike-20241117135600-SchreiberBike-20241116231300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Toadspike-20241117135600-SchreiberBike-20241116231300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Toadspike-20241117135600-SchreiberBike-20241116231300"></span></dd></dl></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241117000300-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span>Allow</b> <i>crore</i>, <i>lakh</i> per <a href="/wiki/User:SchreiberBike" title="User:SchreiberBike">SchreiberBike</a>, and with the same caveats. <a href="/wiki/User:Dondervogel_2" title="User:Dondervogel 2">Dondervogel 2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondervogel_2" title="User talk:Dondervogel 2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Dondervogel_2-20241117000300-Kurzon-20241116171400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:03, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241117000300-Kurzon-20241116171400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondervogel_2-20241117000300-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241117012000-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span>Allow ScreiberBike</b>, per my comments above. <a href="/wiki/User:Aaron_Liu" title="User:Aaron Liu"><span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aaron_Liu#top" title="User talk:Aaron Liu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Aaron_Liu-20241117012000-Kurzon-20241116171400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:20, 17 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241117012000-Kurzon-20241116171400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Aaron_Liu-20241117012000-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Asteramellus-20241118003000-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span>Allow ScreiberBike</b>. But see also <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/India-related_articles#Basic_India_conventions" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/India-related articles">Wikipedia:Manual of Style/India-related articles#Basic_India_conventions</a> - "You may use the Indian numbering system of lakhs and crores <i>but should give their equivalents in millions/billions in parentheses</i>" <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/User:Asteramellus" title="User:Asteramellus">Asteramellus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Asteramellus#top" title="User talk:Asteramellus">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Asteramellus" title="Special:Contributions/Asteramellus">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Asteramellus-20241118003000-Kurzon-20241116171400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Asteramellus-20241118003000-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Asteramellus-20241118003000-Kurzon-20241116171400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241118231100-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span>Allow</b> <i>crore</i>, <i>lakh</i> and <a href="/wiki/Indian_numbering_system" title="Indian numbering system">Indian numbering system</a>, <b>but always</b>, 1) link it upon first use <u>in every section where it appears</u>, 2) include what it is a measure of (rupees can not be assumed), 3) also include conventional numbering <u>using template <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Convert" title="Template:Convert">convert</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>—i.e., don't convert yourself</u>, and 4) allow it only in articles about the subcontinent. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Mathglot-20241118231100-Kurzon-20241116171400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:11, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241118231100-Kurzon-20241116171400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20241118231100-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241118235000-Mathglot-20241118231100"></span>Hm; was very surprised to notice that the <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Convert" title="Template:Convert">convert</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> template does not currently support lakhs and crores. I think it should, and started <a href="/wiki/Module_talk:Convert#Indian_numbering_system:_lakhs_and_crores" title="Module talk:Convert">a discussion</a> about that. If you wish to comment, please go to <a href="/wiki/Module_talk:Convert#Indian_numbering_system:_lakhs_and_crores" title="Module talk:Convert">Module talk:Convert#Indian numbering system: lakhs and crores</a>. Thanks, <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Mathglot-20241118235000-Mathglot-20241118231100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241118235000-Mathglot-20241118231100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20241118235000-Mathglot-20241118231100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Redrose64-20241119225200-Mathglot-20241118235000"></span>The convert template converts units, like feet and metres. Crores and lakhs are not units, but multipliers. It would be like convert being used to convert between hundreds, thousands, millions etc. --<a href="/wiki/User:Redrose64" title="User:Redrose64"><span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64</a> 🌹 (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Redrose64" title="User talk:Redrose64">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Redrose64-20241119225200-Mathglot-20241118235000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:52, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Redrose64-20241119225200-Mathglot-20241118235000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Redrose64-20241119225200-Mathglot-20241118235000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241119230200-Redrose64-20241119225200"></span>The <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Lakh" title="Template:Lakh">lakh</a>}}</code> and <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Crore" title="Template:Crore">crore</a>}}</code> templates make more sense than overloading <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Convert" title="Template:Convert">convert</a>}}</code>. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Stepho-wrs-20241119230200-Redrose64-20241119225200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:02, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241119230200-Redrose64-20241119225200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20241119230200-Redrose64-20241119225200"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr.choppers-20241120045000-Mathglot-20241118231100"></span>I agree with SchreiberBike and others; "crores" and "lakhs" can always be used to add colour/color to an article as long as those requirements are met. <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;"><a href="/wiki/User:Mr.choppers" title="User:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;"><b> Mr.choppers | </b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr.choppers" title="User talk:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;">✎ </span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Mr.choppers-20241120045000-Mathglot-20241118231100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr.choppers-20241120045000-Mathglot-20241118231100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr.choppers-20241120045000-Mathglot-20241118231100"></span></dd></dl></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Avgeekamfot-20241120095000-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span>Do not allow</b>. This is not the same as variations of English in wide use where there are multiple widespread usages (color or colour). While SchreiberBike's conditions for use are reasonable, I would say that the standard international measurements should always be primary and subcontinent-specific numbering as a secondary only in articles about the subcontinent. <a href="/wiki/User:Avgeekamfot" title="User:Avgeekamfot">Avgeekamfot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Avgeekamfot" title="User talk:Avgeekamfot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Avgeekamfot-20241120095000-Kurzon-20241116171400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Avgeekamfot-20241120095000-Kurzon-20241116171400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Avgeekamfot-20241120095000-Kurzon-20241116171400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241120121700-Avgeekamfot-20241120095000"></span>What does "widespread" mean? <a href="/wiki/User:Aaron_Liu" title="User:Aaron Liu"><span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aaron_Liu#top" title="User talk:Aaron Liu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Aaron_Liu-20241120121700-Avgeekamfot-20241120095000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:17, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241120121700-Avgeekamfot-20241120095000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Aaron_Liu-20241120121700-Avgeekamfot-20241120095000"></span></dd></dl></li></ul> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions"></span><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r996643573">.mw-parser-output .block-indent{padding-left:3em;padding-right:0;overflow:hidden}</style><div class="block-indent" style="padding-left: 1.6em;"><small>Notified: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/India-related_articles" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/India-related articles">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/India-related articles</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Jlwoodwa" title="User:Jlwoodwa">jlwoodwa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jlwoodwa" title="User talk:Jlwoodwa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:04, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions"></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400-RfC_Indian_numbering_conventions"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></div> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SMcCandlish-20241121115500-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"></span>Allow, but always ...</b> exactly as Mathglot laid out above (other than, per Stepho-wrs and Redrose64, <code>{{convert}}</code> isn't actually the right template, or at least isn't presently). I would add a further caveat that these traditional Indic units (technically, multipliers) should be given secondarily not primarily, but I could live without that. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish"><b>SMcCandlish</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-SMcCandlish-20241121115500-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SMcCandlish-20241121115500-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SMcCandlish-20241121115500-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ThatIPEditor-20241122021800-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"></span>Allow</b> when appropriate, under conditions set out by ScreiberBike. Also, this RfC does not meet <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFCNEUTRAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFCNEUTRAL">WP:RFCNEUTRAL</a>. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:ThatIPEditor&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:ThatIPEditor (page does not exist)">ThatIPEditor</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:ThatIPEditor" title="User talk:ThatIPEditor">Talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/ThatIPEditor" title="Special:Contributions/ThatIPEditor">Contribs</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-ThatIPEditor-20241122021800-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ThatIPEditor-20241122021800-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ThatIPEditor-20241122021800-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tony1-20241122073200-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"></span>Do not allow</b> crore et al. It's not only native English-speakers who haven't a clue what it means when reading India-related articles; it's non-natives too. <a href="/wiki/User:Tony1" title="User:Tony1"><b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tony1" title="User talk:Tony1"><span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Tony1-20241122073200-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tony1-20241122073200-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tony1-20241122073200-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241122122100-Tony1-20241122073200"></span>I don't get what native/non-native speakers have to do with the issue. <a href="/wiki/User:Aaron_Liu" title="User:Aaron Liu"><span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aaron_Liu#top" title="User talk:Aaron Liu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Aaron_Liu-20241122122100-Tony1-20241122073200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:21, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Aaron_Liu-20241122122100-Tony1-20241122073200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Aaron_Liu-20241122122100-Tony1-20241122073200"></span></dd></dl></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Johnbod-20241122172900-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"></span>Allow per ScreiberBike</b> for South Asian articles. <a href="/wiki/User:Johnbod" title="User:Johnbod">Johnbod</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Johnbod" title="User talk:Johnbod">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Johnbod-20241122172900-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:29, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Johnbod-20241122172900-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Johnbod-20241122172900-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hako9-20241123030100-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"></span>Allow</b> All Indian academic/professional textbooks and all Indian reliable sources, with few exceptions for specific conditions, use lakhs/crores when denoting INR and millions/billions when denoting foreign currencies. Not allowing is not an option, unless editors want to disregard Indian readers. Using X million rupees is almost as uncommon in India as using Y lakh dollars. My suggestion -- for articles that use <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Use_Indian_English" title="Template:Use Indian English">Use Indian English</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> force editors to <b>1) link it on first use, 2) include what it is a measure of (rupees can not be assumed)</b> with Indian comma separator at 00 after thousands and for articles that don't use that template force editors to <b>always</b> use millions/billions with 000 comma separator. — <a href="/wiki/User:Hako9" title="User:Hako9">hako9</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hako9" title="User talk:Hako9">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Hako9-20241123030100-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hako9-20241123030100-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hako9-20241123030100-Jlwoodwa-20241121010400"></span> <dl><dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241123091100-Hako9-20241123030100"></span>Strongly disallow</b> use of Indian comma separator. That would only serve to confuse. We don't permit a French comma separator on English Wikipedia. The Indian comma would be much worse. <a href="/wiki/User:Dondervogel_2" title="User:Dondervogel 2">Dondervogel 2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondervogel_2" title="User talk:Dondervogel 2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-Dondervogel_2-20241123091100-Hako9-20241123030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:11, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondervogel_2-20241123091100-Hako9-20241123030100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondervogel_2-20241123091100-Hako9-20241123030100"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SMcCandlish-20241124144900-Hako9-20241123030100"></span>I concur entirely with Dongervogel_2 on this side-point; we cannot mix-and-match numeric separator styles. We've repeatedly had debates in the past about permitting "," instead of "." as a decimal point to suit the preference of some subset of readers, and the answer is always firmly "no", so this isn't going to be any different. I'm not a professional researcher in this area, but I have looked into the matter in the course of various style debates, and the evidence clearly shows Indian publications using "Western" number formatting systems (or whatever you want to call them) on a regular basis, though often alongside the Indic <span title="Hindi-language text"><i lang="hi-Latn">krore</i></span>, etc., system. That is, it's just not plausible that English-using readers in/from India have any difficulty understanding our numeric material, especially after the rise of the Internet has exposed them to content from all over the world since the mid-1990s and pretty much ubiquitously since the early 2010 with the rise of mobile data. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish" title="User:SMcCandlish"><b>SMcCandlish</b></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish" title="User talk:SMcCandlish">☏</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish" title="Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish">¢</a> 😼 </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#c-SMcCandlish-20241124144900-Hako9-20241123030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SMcCandlish-20241124144900-Hako9-20241123030100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SMcCandlish-20241124144900-Hako9-20241123030100"></span></dd></dl></li></ul>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers&oldid=1259325619">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers&oldid=1259325619</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Category</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_requests_for_comment" title="Category:Wikipedia requests for comment">Wikipedia requests for comment</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 24 November 2024, at 15:24<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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