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ext-discussiontools-sourcemodetoolbar-enabled skin-vector-legacy mediawiki ltr sitedir-ltr mw-hide-empty-elt ns-3 ns-talk mw-editable page-User_talk_Shonagon rootpage-User_talk_Shonagon skin-vector action-view"><div id="mw-page-base" class="noprint"></div> <div id="mw-head-base" class="noprint"></div> <div id="content" class="mw-body" role="main"> <a id="top"></a> <div id="siteNotice"></div> <div class="mw-indicators"> </div> <h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading mw-first-heading"><span class="mw-page-title-namespace">User talk</span><span class="mw-page-title-separator">:</span><span class="mw-page-title-main">Shonagon</span></h1> <div id="bodyContent" class="vector-body"> <div id="siteSub" class="noprint">From Wikidata</div> <div id="contentSub"><div id="mw-content-subtitle"></div></div> <div id="contentSub2"></div> <div id="jump-to-nav"></div> <a class="mw-jump-link" href="#mw-head">Jump to navigation</a> <a class="mw-jump-link" href="#searchInput">Jump to search</a> <div 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1em;box-sizing:border-box;width:238px;font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}html body.mediawiki .mw-parser-output .mbox-small-left{margin:4px 1em 4px 0;box-sizing:border-box;overflow:hidden;width:238px;border-collapse:collapse;font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}</style> <table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice mbox-small" style="text-align: center;"> <tbody><tr><th><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200" /></span></span><br />Archives </th></tr> <tr><td style="text-align:left;"> <table cellpadding="0" width="100%" style="text-align: center; background-color: transparent;"> <tbody><tr> <td><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon/Archive_1" title="User talk:Shonagon/Archive 1">Archive 1</a> </td> <td><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon/Archive_2" title="User talk:Shonagon/Archive 2">Archive 2</a> </td> <td><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon/Archive_3" title="User talk:Shonagon/Archive 3">Archive 3</a> </td></tr> </tbody></table> </td></tr> </tbody></table> <div id="toc" class="toc" role="navigation" aria-labelledby="mw-toc-heading"><input type="checkbox" role="button" id="toctogglecheckbox" class="toctogglecheckbox" style="display:none" /><div class="toctitle" lang="en" dir="ltr"><h2 id="mw-toc-heading">Contents</h2><span class="toctogglespan"><label class="toctogglelabel" for="toctogglecheckbox"></label></span></div> <ul> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-1"><a href="#Propriété_depict_sur_les_oeuvres_du_Louvre"><span class="tocnumber">1</span> <span class="toctext">Propriété depict sur les oeuvres du Louvre</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-2"><a href="#Numéros_d'inventaire_du_Louvre"><span class="tocnumber">2</span> <span class="toctext">Numéros d'inventaire du Louvre</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-3"><a href="#Automated_report_of_empty_item:_Q118654668"><span class="tocnumber">3</span> <span class="toctext">Automated report of empty item: Q118654668</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-4"><a href="#Picture_for_Two_Shutters_of_an_Altarpiece"><span class="tocnumber">4</span> <span class="toctext">Picture for Two Shutters of an Altarpiece</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-5"><a href="#Q87454953"><span class="tocnumber">5</span> <span class="toctext">Q87454953</span></a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Propriété_depict_sur_les_oeuvres_du_Louvre" data-mw-thread-id="h-Propriété_depict_sur_les_oeuvres_du_Louvre-20230202211100"><span id="Propri.C3.A9t.C3.A9_depict_sur_les_oeuvres_du_Louvre"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Propriété_depict_sur_les_oeuvres_du_Louvre-20230202211100"></span>Propriété depict sur les oeuvres du Louvre<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Propriété_depict_sur_les_oeuvres_du_Louvre-20230202211100"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Shonagon&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Propriété depict sur les oeuvres du Louvre"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shonagon-20230202211100-Propriété_depict_sur_les_oeuvres_du_Louvre"></span>Bonjour Shonagon Le lien suivant donne accès à un petit Notebook qui explore les propriétés depict des oeuvres du Louvre <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://public.paws.wmcloud.org/User:Jcmoissinac/VocabulaireDepictLouvre.ipynb">https://public.paws.wmcloud.org/User:Jcmoissinac/VocabulaireDepictLouvre.ipynb</a> Je compte le compléter. On y voit notamment qu'environ la moitié des oeuvres considérées renseignent la propriété depict. <a href="/wiki/User:Jcmoissinac" title="User:Jcmoissinac">User:Jcmoissinac</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_User:Jcmoissinac&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User User:Jcmoissinac (page does not exist)"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) </p> <dl><dd>Bonjour <a href="/wiki/User:Jcmoissinac" title="User:Jcmoissinac">Jcmoissinac</a></dd> <dd>C'est très intéressant. En effet ça mériterait d'être creusé car cette indexation iconographique conjuguée aux possibilités de requêtes SparQL, offre certainement beaucoup de potentialités d'exploration et de recherche, encore sous exploitées.</dd> <dd>Pour information une bonne part de l'indexation des éléments Louvre provient de Joconde, comme expliqué dans ce billet : <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://zone47.com/dozo/indexation-iconographique-sur-wikidata-via-jocondelab">Indexation iconographique sur Wikidata via JocondeLab</a>. Comme actuellement toutes les œuvres Louvre ne sont pas sur Joconde/POP, cette possibilité a ses limites. Par ailleurs, il y a eu pas mal de versements en lien avec Atlas ou le nouveau site des Collections. Pour ces éléments l'identfiant Joconde est souvent manquant, en particulier pour les quelques milliers de peintures versées récémment. Pour ce dernier lot, l'indexation iconographique reste à faire.</dd> <dd>Enfin, de mon côté, j'ai développé récemment un petit site qui permet d'explorer les collections du Louvre, notamment via l'iconographie : <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://zone47.com/crotos/gudea/cosmos/?f=180">http://zone47.com/crotos/gudea/cosmos/?f=180</a></dd> <dd>Bien cordialement --<a href="/wiki/User:Shonagon" title="User:Shonagon">Shonagon</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Shonagon-20230202211100-Propriété_depict_sur_les_oeuvres_du_Louvre" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:11, 2 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shonagon-20230202211100-Propriété_depict_sur_les_oeuvres_du_Louvre"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shonagon-20230202211100-Propriété_depict_sur_les_oeuvres_du_Louvre"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jcmoissinac-20230203164400-Shonagon-20230202211100"></span>Bonjour Shonagon</dd> <dd>J'ai relu avec un intérêt nouveau le billet. J'en déduit notamment que si j'insère des éléments avec un ID Joconde, je peux espérer que shonagonBot leur rajoute une indexation iconographique (et une image?) <a href="/wiki/User:Jcmoissinac" title="User:Jcmoissinac">User:Jcmoissinac</a> <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Jcmoissinac-20230203164400-Shonagon-20230202211100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:44, 3 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jcmoissinac-20230203164400-Shonagon-20230202211100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jcmoissinac-20230203164400-Shonagon-20230202211100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shonagon-20230206051800-Jcmoissinac-20230203164400"></span>Bonjour <a href="/wiki/User:Jcmoissinac" title="User:Jcmoissinac">Jcmoissinac</a> Le bot ajoutant des déclarations depuis JocondeLab ne tourne plus. Nénamoins j'ai toujours des données et peux toujours relancer manuellement un import. Par ailleurs une nouvelle mise à jour majeure sur les localisations internes et externes des éléments du Louvre vient d'être faite. Bien à toi --<a href="/wiki/User:Shonagon" title="User:Shonagon">Shonagon</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Shonagon-20230206051800-Jcmoissinac-20230203164400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:18, 6 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shonagon-20230206051800-Jcmoissinac-20230203164400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shonagon-20230206051800-Jcmoissinac-20230203164400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jcmoissinac-20230207104100-Shonagon-20230206051800"></span>Cette mise à jour se traduit comment: modifications dans les json de collections.louvre.fr? modifications dans les localisations des oeuvres déjà sur Wikidata? autre? Bien à toi. <a href="/wiki/User:Jcmoissinac" title="User:Jcmoissinac">Jcmoissinac</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jcmoissinac&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Jcmoissinac (page does not exist)"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Jcmoissinac-20230207104100-Shonagon-20230206051800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:41, 7 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jcmoissinac-20230207104100-Shonagon-20230206051800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jcmoissinac-20230207104100-Shonagon-20230206051800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shonagon-20230208073800-Jcmoissinac-20230207104100"></span>Bonjour <a href="/wiki/User:Jcmoissinac" title="User:Jcmoissinac">Jcmoissinac</a>. Il s'agit de la localisation sur Wikidata des œuvres affectées aux collections du Louvre, et pas forcément au Louvre. Les informations de lieu ont été renseignées à partir des JSON du site collections.louvre.fr.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1502159272">.mw-parser-output .wdt-sparql-container-collapsible{border:1px solid #BBBBBB}.mw-parser-output .wdt-sparql-container-collapsible pre{margin-top:2px}</style><div class="wdt-sparql-container"><div><div class="mw-highlight mw-highlight-lang-sparql mw-content-ltr" dir="ltr"><pre><span></span><span class="k">SELECT</span> <span class="nv">?item</span> <span class="nv">?itemLabel</span> <span class="nv">?arkLouvre</span> <span class="nv">?lieuLabel</span> <span class="k">WHERE</span> <span class="p">{</span> <span class="nv">?item</span> <span class="nn">wdt</span><span class="p">:</span><span class="nt">P9394</span> <span class="nv">?arkLouvre</span><span class="p">.</span> <span class="nv">?item</span> <span class="nn">wdt</span><span class="p">:</span><span class="nt">P276</span> <span class="nv">?lieu</span><span class="p">.</span> <span class="k">SERVICE</span> <span class="nn">wikibase</span><span class="p">:</span><span class="nt">label</span> <span class="p">{</span> <span class="nn">bd</span><span class="p">:</span><span class="nt">serviceParam</span> <span class="nn">wikibase</span><span class="p">:</span><span class="nt">language</span> <span class="s">"[AUTO_LANGUAGE],fr,en"</span><span class="p">.</span> <span class="p">}</span> <span class="p">}</span> </pre></div></div><a class="external text" href="https://query.wikidata.org/#SELECT%20%3Fitem%20%3FitemLabel%20%3FarkLouvre%20%3FlieuLabel%0AWHERE%20%0A%7B%0A%20%20%3Fitem%20wdt%3AP9394%20%3FarkLouvre.%0A%20%20%3Fitem%20wdt%3AP276%20%3Flieu.%0A%20%20SERVICE%20wikibase%3Alabel%20%7B%20bd%3AserviceParam%20wikibase%3Alanguage%20%22%5BAUTO_LANGUAGE%5D%2Cfr%2Cen%22.%20%7D%0A%7D"><span dir="ltr" lang="en">Try it!</span></a> </div> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Bien à toi --<a href="/wiki/User:Shonagon" title="User:Shonagon">Shonagon</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Shonagon-20230208073800-Jcmoissinac-20230207104100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:38, 8 February 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shonagon-20230208073800-Jcmoissinac-20230207104100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shonagon-20230208073800-Jcmoissinac-20230207104100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Numéros_d'inventaire_du_Louvre" data-mw-thread-id="h-Numéros_d'inventaire_du_Louvre-20230412104100"><span id="Num.C3.A9ros_d.27inventaire_du_Louvre"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Numéros_d'inventaire_du_Louvre-20230412104100"></span>Numéros d'inventaire du Louvre<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Numéros_d'inventaire_du_Louvre-20230412104100"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Shonagon&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Numéros d'inventaire du Louvre"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zolo-20230412104100-Numéros_d'inventaire_du_Louvre"></span>Bonjour Shonagon, </p><p>On trouve parfois des variantes graphiques des sur les numéros d'inventaire du Louvre, avec des points, des tirets ou des espaces en plus. Par exemple sur <a href="/wiki/Q3210253#P217" title="Q3210253">Q3210253#P217</a> on a RF 1949 11 et RF 1949-11. L'une des deux est-elle plus correcte que l'autre. Faut-il en marquer une comme préférée pour éviter d'avoir les deux qui s'affichent sur des pages comme <a href="/wiki/File:0_La_Madeleine_%C3%A0_la_veilleuse_-_Georges_de_La_Tour_-_Louvre_RF_1949-11.JPG" title="File:0 La Madeleine à la veilleuse - Georges de La Tour - Louvre RF 1949-11.JPG">File:0 La Madeleine à la veilleuse - Georges de La Tour - Louvre RF 1949-11.JPG</a>. </p><p>Par ailleurs, j'ai des doutes sur l'utilisation du qualificatif <a href="/wiki/Property:P195" title="Property:P195">collection <small dir="ltr">(P195)</small></a>. On y trouves des valeurs comme "département des peintures du Louvre", alors qu'a priori le numéro d'inventaire n'a pas été décidé au niveau du département. </p><p>Bien à toi <a href="/wiki/User:Zolo" title="User:Zolo">Zolo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zolo" title="User talk:Zolo"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Zolo-20230412104100-Numéros_d'inventaire_du_Louvre" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:41, 12 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zolo-20230412104100-Numéros_d'inventaire_du_Louvre"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zolo-20230412104100-Numéros_d'inventaire_du_Louvre"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shonagon-20230412114000-Zolo-20230412104100"></span>Bonjour <a href="/wiki/User:Zolo" title="User:Zolo">Zolo</a></dd> <dd>Au Louvre, comme dans plein d'autres musées, il y a souvent des variantes de formalisation des numéros d'inventaire. Le <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://collections.louvr.fr">site Collections</a>, sorti en 2021, présente les notices d'autorité des objets des collections et c'est désormais cette graphie qui fait référence. Il pourrait en effet être peritinent de la mettre en rang préférentiel mais il pourrait être aussi pertinent de supprimer la ou les autres variantes. Comme tu le remarques, il y en a avec des tirets des points et vouloir toutes les noter, créerait un bruit considérable, certainement non homogène et bien peu utile.</dd> <dd>Par ailleurs ce sont bien les départements qui sont les personnes morales qui gèrent officielement les collections. Les registres d'inventaire sont physiquement situés et maintenus dans les départements. C'est drôle car c'est <a class="external text" href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon/Archive_1#c-Zolo-2013-08-14T07:33:00.000Z-Zolo-2013-08-12T15:03:00.000Z">toi qui m'avais, sensibilisé sur cette question</a> il y a 10 ans environ. Tu avais parfaitement raison. C'est bien le département qui est la collection à laquelle est associée officielement l'œuvre et son ou ses numéros d'inventaire. C'est même la seule manière d'expliquer que l'on retrouve des numéros identiques dans différents départements : <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://w.wiki/6aCH">https://w.wiki/6aCH</a> . Bien à toi --<a href="/wiki/User:Shonagon" title="User:Shonagon">Shonagon</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Shonagon-20230412114000-Zolo-20230412104100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:40, 12 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shonagon-20230412114000-Zolo-20230412104100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shonagon-20230412114000-Zolo-20230412104100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zolo-20230412122700-Shonagon-20230412114000"></span>Merci pour ta réponse. J'imaginais que le numéro d'inventaire était attribué par l'état avec l'affectation au musée, ce qui expliquerait les initiales "RF" par exemple.</dd> <dd>Supprimer les variantes serait le plus simple et le plus lisible, mais elles risquent d'être réajoutées plus tard par des bots qui importeraient des données externes. Utiliser le rang préférentiel évite ce problème, mais peut poser d'autres questions lorsqu'il y a plusieurs numéros d'inventaire. Par exemple dans <a href="/wiki/File:Akhilleus_Louvre_F366.jpg" title="File:Akhilleus Louvre F366.jpg">File:Akhilleus Louvre F366.jpg</a>, un des deux numéros doit-il être "préféré" à l'autre ? Ce serait peut-être techniquement justifié, mais du coup, il n'y en aurait plus qu'un des deux qui s'afficherait pas défaut.. -<a href="/wiki/User:Zolo" title="User:Zolo">Zolo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zolo" title="User talk:Zolo"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Zolo-20230412122700-Shonagon-20230412114000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:27, 12 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zolo-20230412122700-Shonagon-20230412114000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zolo-20230412122700-Shonagon-20230412114000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shonagon-20230413083800-Zolo-20230412122700"></span>Bonjour @<a href="/wiki/User:Zolo" title="User:Zolo">Zolo</a></dd> <dd>Les numéros d'objets muséaux c'est compliqué et j'avoue que j'en apprends régulièrement sur le sujet, que je me garderais bien de prétendre maîtriser. Il est parfois difficile, et pas forcément souhaitable, de rendre compte de cette complexité sur Wikidata.</dd> <dd>Ce que tu décris est ce qui se fait aujourd'hui sur les numéros d'inventaire qui ont été standardisés. Par exemple : <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://collections.louvre.fr/ark:/53355/cl010433602">https://collections.louvre.fr/ark:/53355/cl010433602</a> (là, il ya des points); RFML.AGER => République française Musée du Louvre - Antiquités grecques étrusques et romaines.</dd> <dd>Les numéros d'inventaire produits par le passé sont plus hétérogènes et il est commun qu'il y en ait plusieurs. Il y a parfois un numéro considéré comme principal. Exemple : <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://collections.louvre.fr/ark:/53355/cl010174436">https://collections.louvre.fr/ark:/53355/cl010174436</a> . Même dans ce type de cas, il n'est pas certain qu'utiliser un rangé préférentiel sur wikidata soit souhaitable. Comme tu le remarques, il peut être pertinent de restituer aussi les autres numéros.</dd> <dd>Ainsi pour les numéros, il y a une dimension d'usage, essentielle. C'est en particulier le cas pour les objets des AGER dont souvent ce n'est pas le numéro d'inventaire qui est principalement utilisé comme référence, mais un numéro de catalogue. C'est typiquement le cas de l'exemple que tu indiques. Le numéro le plus couramment utilisé n'est pas le numéro d'inventaire, MNB 1693, mais un numéro de catalogue, F 366. En pratique ces numéros font office de numéro d'inventaire en tant qu'identifiant de collection. On le voit très bien sur cet exemple. On trouve souvent d'ailleurs la mention "numéro usuel", comme c'étati le cas sur l'ancienne base Atlas. Presque que tout le monde méconnaît ces catalogues d'origine, produis au XIXe / début XXe (personnelement je ne connais pas la référence de celui de cet exemple). C'est pourquoi il paraît souhaitable de les mettre en "numéro d'inventaire" et pas en "numéro de catalogue" sur Wikidata.</dd> <dd>Ce problème de nature de numéros se retrouve aussi avec les numéros de dépôts, qui ne sont pas non plus des numéros d'inventaire mais qui sont aussi considérés comme des numéros d'identifiants en lien avec une collection. La solution pragmatique de Wikidata de les mettre en "numéros d'inventaire" est tout à fait raisonnable.</dd> <dd>En résumé, amha, sur wikidata pour la propriété <a href="/wiki/Property:P217" title="Property:P217">inventory number <small dir="ltr">(P217)</small></a> on devrait supprimer les variantes de graphie et garder les autres numéros sans rang préférentiel, en incluant les numéros de dépôt et les numéros usuels des anciens catalogues qui font référence pour le musée. C'est, somme toute, globalement l'usage actuel de la contribution sur les objets des collections du Louvre. <a href="/wiki/User:Shonagon" title="User:Shonagon">Shonagon</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Shonagon-20230413083800-Zolo-20230412122700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:38, 13 April 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shonagon-20230413083800-Zolo-20230412122700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shonagon-20230413083800-Zolo-20230412122700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Automated_report_of_empty_item:_Q118654668" data-mw-thread-id="h-Automated_report_of_empty_item:_Q118654668-20230530085300"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Automated_report_of_empty_item:_Q118654668-20230530085300"></span>Automated report of empty item: Q118654668<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Automated_report_of_empty_item:_Q118654668-20230530085300"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Shonagon&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Automated report of empty item: Q118654668"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dexbot-20230530085300-Automated_report_of_empty_item:_Q118654668"></span>Hello, <a href="/w/index.php?title=Q118654668&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Q118654668 (page does not exist)">an item</a> that you have edited (and you are the only non-bot editor) is considered empty and will be deleted in 72 hours if it doesn't improve. Your automated cleaner, <a href="/wiki/User:Dexbot" title="User:Dexbot">Dexbot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dexbot" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Dexbot"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Dexbot-20230530085300-Automated_report_of_empty_item:_Q118654668" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:53, 30 May 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dexbot-20230530085300-Automated_report_of_empty_item:_Q118654668"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dexbot-20230530085300-Automated_report_of_empty_item:_Q118654668"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Picture_for_Two_Shutters_of_an_Altarpiece" data-mw-thread-id="h-Picture_for_Two_Shutters_of_an_Altarpiece-20230903185600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Picture_for_Two_Shutters_of_an_Altarpiece-20230903185600"></span>Picture for Two Shutters of an Altarpiece<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Picture_for_Two_Shutters_of_an_Altarpiece-20230903185600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Shonagon&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Picture for Two Shutters of an Altarpiece"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Multichill-20230903185600-Picture_for_Two_Shutters_of_an_Altarpiece"></span>Maybe you can take a photo for <a href="/wiki/Q122206924" title="Q122206924">Two Shutters of an Altarpiece: Christ, kneeling, with Philip the Fair and clerics behind him; the Virgin, kneeling, with Johanna, Philip's wife, and holy women behind her <small>(Q122206924)</small></a>? I see on <a href="/wiki/File:Decorative_arts_in_the_Louvre_-_Room_8.jpg" title="File:Decorative arts in the Louvre - Room 8.jpg">File:Decorative arts in the Louvre - Room 8.jpg</a> that the two of them are next to each other. <a href="/wiki/User:Multichill" title="User:Multichill">Multichill</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Multichill" title="User talk:Multichill"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Multichill-20230903185600-Picture_for_Two_Shutters_of_an_Altarpiece" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:56, 3 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Multichill-20230903185600-Picture_for_Two_Shutters_of_an_Altarpiece"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Multichill-20230903185600-Picture_for_Two_Shutters_of_an_Altarpiece"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shonagon-20230906074900-Multichill-20230903185600"></span>Hello <a href="/wiki/User:Multichill" title="User:Multichill">Multichill</a> . It's done: <a class="external free" href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q122206924#P18">https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q122206924#P18</a> . Objectively, the photo is not good. It has to be said that, overall, my photos of paintings are mostly bad and I will continue to focus on 3D artifacts. Still, it's nice to have a photo of the 2 paintings that go very well together. Best regards --<a href="/wiki/User:Shonagon" title="User:Shonagon">Shonagon</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Shonagon-20230906074900-Multichill-20230903185600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:49, 6 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shonagon-20230906074900-Multichill-20230903185600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shonagon-20230906074900-Multichill-20230903185600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Multichill-20230908163100-Shonagon-20230906074900"></span>Thank you very much! Nothing wrong with that photo. That's an excellent photo to illustrate the pair. <a href="/wiki/User:Multichill" title="User:Multichill">Multichill</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Multichill" title="User talk:Multichill"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Multichill-20230908163100-Shonagon-20230906074900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:31, 8 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Multichill-20230908163100-Shonagon-20230906074900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Multichill-20230908163100-Shonagon-20230906074900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Q87454953" data-mw-thread-id="h-Q87454953-20231226175700"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Q87454953-20231226175700"></span><a href="/wiki/Q87454953" title="Q87454953">Q87454953</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Q87454953-20231226175700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Shonagon&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Q87454953"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adam78-20231226175700-Q87454953"></span>Hello, I think two objects have been conflated at <a href="/wiki/Q87454953" title="Q87454953">Q87454953</a>: </p> <ul><li>Tête de femme (Vénus ?)</li> <li>Le Général Dampierre (1756-1793), expirant, remet au général Gobert son sabre et le commandement de son armée</li></ul> <p>The items given at <a href="/wiki/Property:P180" title="Property:P180">depicts <small dir="ltr">(P180)</small></a> made me suspicious. I suggest you could create two distinct elements instead. For the time being, I marked the features of the original piece with a "deprecated" rank, but I don't know whether the current item should be about the first or the second object. <a href="/wiki/User:Adam78" title="User:Adam78">Adam78</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Adam78" title="User talk:Adam78"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Adam78-20231226175700-Q87454953" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:57, 26 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adam78-20231226175700-Q87454953"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adam78-20231226175700-Q87454953"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shonagon-20231226193900-Adam78-20231226175700"></span>Hello <a href="/wiki/User:Adam78" title="User:Adam78">Adam78</a> Thanks for this alert; it's fixed. There was indeed confusion due to the fact that 2 Joconde database IDs identifiers were initially filled, one of which was entered by mistake, <a class="external free" href="https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q87454953&oldid=1133476933">https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q87454953&oldid=1133476933</a> . A new item has been created : <a href="/wiki/Q124017351" title="Q124017351">Q124017351</a>. Best regards --<a href="/wiki/User:Shonagon" title="User:Shonagon">Shonagon</a> (<a class="mw-selflink selflink"><span class="signature-talk">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User_talk:Shonagon#c-Shonagon-20231226193900-Adam78-20231226175700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:39, 26 December 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shonagon-20231226193900-Adam78-20231226175700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shonagon-20231226193900-Adam78-20231226175700"></span></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?useformat=desktop&type=1x1&usesul3=0" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: 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