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import-mid">Mid‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:WP_TOL_logo.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/WP_TOL_logo.png/140px-WP_TOL_logo.png" decoding="async" width="140" height="89" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/WP_TOL_logo.png/210px-WP_TOL_logo.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/WP_TOL_logo.png/280px-WP_TOL_logo.png 2x" data-file-width="1279" data-file-height="810"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life">WikiProject Tree of Life</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Alpha_taxonomy" class="mw-redirect" title="Alpha taxonomy">taxonomy</a> and the <a href="/wiki/Phylogenetics" title="Phylogenetics">phylogenetic</a> <a href="/wiki/Tree_of_life_(science)" class="mw-redirect" title="Tree of life (science)">tree of life</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tree of Life">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Tree of Life</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Tree of Life</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">taxonomic</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-mid"><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_taxonomic_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance taxonomic articles">Mid</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Mid-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Unclear_text" data-mw-thread-id="h-Unclear_text-2011-12-31T18:54:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Unclear_text-2011-12-31T18:54:00.000Z"></span>Unclear text<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Unclear_text-2011-12-31T18:54:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Plesiomorphy_and_symplesiomorphy&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Unclear text"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Petter_Bøckman-2011-12-31T18:54:00.000Z-Unclear_text"></span>This text may be correct, but it is not decipherable to anyone not very intimate with cladistics. It <i>seriously</i> need improvement. <a href="/wiki/User:Petter_B%C3%B8ckman" title="User:Petter Bøckman">Petter Bøckman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Petter_B%C3%B8ckman" title="User talk:Petter Bøckman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Plesiomorphy_and_symplesiomorphy#c-Petter_Bøckman-2011-12-31T18:54:00.000Z-Unclear_text" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:54, 31 December 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Petter_Bøckman-2011-12-31T18:54:00.000Z-Unclear_text"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Petter_Bøckman-2011-12-31T18:54:00.000Z-Unclear_text"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2011-12-31T19:06:00.000Z-Petter_Bøckman-2011-12-31T18:54:00.000Z"></span>Can you be more specific about which parts are unclear? Does it need more examples that people can relate to, or more discussion about terms that might be unfamiliar to the reader? -<a href="/wiki/User:Ferahgo_the_Assassin" title="User:Ferahgo the Assassin">Ferahgo the Assassin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ferahgo_the_Assassin" title="User talk:Ferahgo the Assassin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Plesiomorphy_and_symplesiomorphy#c-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2011-12-31T19:06:00.000Z-Petter_Bøckman-2011-12-31T18:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:06, 31 December 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2011-12-31T19:06:00.000Z-Petter_Bøckman-2011-12-31T18:54:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2011-12-31T19:06:00.000Z-Petter_Bøckman-2011-12-31T18:54:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-03T07:32:00.000Z-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2011-12-31T19:06:00.000Z"></span>Well, it's the very technical language that's making this difficult. Am I right in assuming a plesiomorphy is a primitive trait, like more than one toe in odd-toed ungulates or lack of pholoem in mosses and liverworts? It's not immediately obvious from the text. I know phylogenetic nomenclature is kind of technical, but the basic concept behind it is quite simple, so there should be no need to go all Hennig and use expressions like "ancestral character state" and "pharyngeal gill in bony and cartilaginous fishes". Why not "primitive trait" and "the gills in fishes"? <a href="/wiki/User:Petter_B%C3%B8ckman" title="User:Petter Bøckman">Petter Bøckman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Petter_B%C3%B8ckman" title="User talk:Petter Bøckman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Plesiomorphy_and_symplesiomorphy#c-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-03T07:32:00.000Z-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2011-12-31T19:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:32, 3 January 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-03T07:32:00.000Z-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2011-12-31T19:06:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-03T07:32:00.000Z-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2011-12-31T19:06:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2012-01-08T19:25:00.000Z-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-03T07:32:00.000Z"></span>I understand, but some specifics are necessary for total clarity. A plesiomorphy is a primitive trait, but it's more than that: it's a primitive trait that's in reference to a more derived state. So the word plesiomorphy can't just be used in any context that refers to a primitive trait: word choice in phylogenetics is often fully based on context. Also, we can't really say "the gills in fishes" because the article text makes an important distinction between bony fish and cartilagenous fish, and the example depends on that distinction. I will try to further simplify the text, though. Thanks for your input. -<a href="/wiki/User:Ferahgo_the_Assassin" title="User:Ferahgo the Assassin">Ferahgo the Assassin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ferahgo_the_Assassin" title="User talk:Ferahgo the Assassin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Plesiomorphy_and_symplesiomorphy#c-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2012-01-08T19:25:00.000Z-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-03T07:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:25, 8 January 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2012-01-08T19:25:00.000Z-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-03T07:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2012-01-08T19:25:00.000Z-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-03T07:32:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-08T20:58:00.000Z-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2012-01-08T19:25:00.000Z"></span>Rather than emulate the "short but precise" (but rather unreadable) style of Hennig (which I suppose is based on Germa, which is a bit like that), I would expend a few more sentences on it to make it readable. The most problematic aspect of cladistics is keeping all of Hennig's fancy words apart. I see no reason we should reproduce the worst aspects of his work for a general encylopedia. I'll put in some suggestions tomorrow, perhaps we can get it more readable without loosing the proper meaning. <a href="/wiki/User:Petter_B%C3%B8ckman" title="User:Petter Bøckman">Petter Bøckman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Petter_B%C3%B8ckman" title="User talk:Petter Bøckman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Plesiomorphy_and_symplesiomorphy#c-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-08T20:58:00.000Z-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2012-01-08T19:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-08T20:58:00.000Z-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2012-01-08T19:25:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-08T20:58:00.000Z-Ferahgo_the_Assassin-2012-01-08T19:25:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KDS4444-2015-07-12T00:00:00.000Z-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-08T20:58:00.000Z"></span>I am nothing more than a curious reader/ editor trying to understand this term. I've read over the article, and am now feeling <i>slightly</i> better that I understand what the term means, but still find the text somewhat opaque and would like to take a shot at expanding the fish w/ gills example a bit on my own to see if I've got it (and if I <i>do</i> "got it", that will bode well for the article generally!). Someone will want to follow behind me and check my work, which, if malformed, may simply need to be reverted out. But if I get it right, then I hope it will be useful for the future. <span style="font-family:Verdana;"><a href="/wiki/User:KDS4444" title="User:KDS4444"><span style="color:midnightblue"><b>KDS</b></span><span style="color:steelblue"><b>4444</b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:KDS4444" title="User talk:KDS4444"><span style="color:limegreen"><sup><i>Talk</i></sup></span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Plesiomorphy_and_symplesiomorphy#c-KDS4444-2015-07-12T00:00:00.000Z-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-08T20:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:00, 12 July 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KDS4444-2015-07-12T00:00:00.000Z-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-08T20:58:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KDS4444-2015-07-12T00:00:00.000Z-Petter_Bøckman-2012-01-08T20:58:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KDS4444-2015-07-12T00:59:00.000Z-KDS4444-2015-07-12T00:00:00.000Z"></span>Nah. Tried to untangle this web of terms using the examples of the trait of possessing incisors common to all mammals but <i>continually growing</i> incisors as a derived trait unique to the subgroup of rodents, and just got lost in all the morphies and decided it was better I say nothing. What this article really needs are multiple examples (not just fish and their gills) to help the reader understand exactly how these terms are used (and how they are <i>not</i> used, or would be used incorrectly and why a given use would be incorrect). None of this expansion needs to go into original research— it just needs to be laid out by someone who knows what they are talking about and I have concluded that that ain't gonna be me. <span style="font-family:Verdana;"><a href="/wiki/User:KDS4444" title="User:KDS4444"><span style="color:midnightblue"><b>KDS</b></span><span style="color:steelblue"><b>4444</b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:KDS4444" title="User talk:KDS4444"><span style="color:limegreen"><sup><i>Talk</i></sup></span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Plesiomorphy_and_symplesiomorphy#c-KDS4444-2015-07-12T00:59:00.000Z-KDS4444-2015-07-12T00:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:59, 12 July 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KDS4444-2015-07-12T00:59:00.000Z-KDS4444-2015-07-12T00:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KDS4444-2015-07-12T00:59:00.000Z-KDS4444-2015-07-12T00:00:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?useformat=desktop&type=1x1&usesul3=0" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Plesiomorphy_and_symplesiomorphy&oldid=1204784272">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Plesiomorphy_and_symplesiomorphy&oldid=1204784272</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Start-Class_taxonomic_articles" title="Category:Start-Class taxonomic articles">Start-Class taxonomic articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_taxonomic_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance taxonomic articles">Mid-importance taxonomic articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Tree of Life articles">WikiProject Tree of Life articles</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 8 February 2024, at 00:27<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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