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<!DOCTYPE html> <html lang="en" class=" story nytapp-vi-article " xmlns:og="http://opengraphprotocol.org/schema/"> <head> <meta charset="utf-8" /> <title data-rh="true">How Telegram Became the Underworld’s Favorite App - The New York Times</title> <meta data-rh="true" name="robots" content="noarchive, max-image-preview:large"/><meta data-rh="true" name="description" content="Drug dealers, scammers and white nationalists openly conduct business on the platform, according to a Times analysis."/><meta data-rh="true" property="twitter:url" content="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/23/podcasts/the-daily/telegram-terrorism.html"/><meta data-rh="true" property="twitter:title" content="How Telegram Became the Underworld’s Favorite App"/><meta data-rh="true" property="twitter:description" content="Drug dealers, scammers and white nationalists openly conduct business on the platform, according to a Times analysis."/><meta data-rh="true" property="twitter:image" 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While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">From “The New York Times,” I’m Sabrina Tavernise, and this is The Daily.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A “Times” investigation has found that one of the world’s biggest messaging apps with nearly a billion users is also a giant black market and gathering place for terrorists and white supremacists. Today, my colleague, Adam Satariano, on the extraordinary story of Telegram and how it’s led to one of the first arrests of a social media CEO in history.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s Monday. September 23.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Adam, welcome back to the show.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thanks for having me.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So, Adam, you and our colleagues just published a big investigation into what’s going on inside this giant messaging app called Telegram. And it really came at the perfect time because the founder of the platform was arrested in France just a few weeks ago. So tell us what happened.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So this was a fascinating case. So this guy, Pavel Durov, a Russian tech billionaire, his private plane lands at an airport outside Paris. And he is immediately picked up by the French authorities and detained. And the French authorities at first are providing very little detail about what happened. It happens over a weekend. There’s not much public statements being put out. There’s a few French media reports.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And then a few days later, the French prosecutors put out a press release, one page long, and it just lists all these different things that he’s been charged with, complicity in crimes, including the spread of child pornography, drug trafficking, organized gang fraud, criminal conspiracy. And this was a shock and an important moment because Telegram is a massive platform that’s used by almost a billion people around the world. And it raised this really fascinating question of, to what extent does the head of a tech company be held responsible for what users of that service are now doing?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So this is a huge platform. A big chunk of the world uses it. And its founder, Durov, is in trouble because of what’s happening on it. So let’s start with him, Durov. Tell me about him.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">He’s a fascinating character. He was born in the Soviet Union. He moved to Italy when he was a child. His father was an academic and was working there. And then after the fall of the Soviet Union, they moved back to St Petersburg. And he and his brother, who is a real engineering whiz, become fascinated with an IBM computer that they had brought back with them from Italy.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And when Pavel is in university, he’s shown Facebook for the first time, and he becomes fascinated by it. And he’s like, I want to create my own. And so they start their own version of Facebook geared towards Russia, a company known as VK.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[RUSSIAN], as it’s known in Russian.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yes. And it explodes in popularity. And Durov himself begins to develop a bit of a profile.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">On the one hand, he becomes known as Russia’s Mark Zuckerberg. He starts a social media company. It’s at a time when having a start up like that is cool. He’s being written about in places like TechCrunch and other Western press. But on the other hand, he’s sort of a loose cannon. He has this incident where he throws cash out the window of their offices in Saint Petersburg and it leads to a street fight down below.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Another instance, he hit a police officer with a car when he’s trying to evade a traffic stop because he had driven onto the sidewalk to avoid traffic. And so he has this kind of trollish element to him, but he’s one who has a lot of money and, therefore, a lot of power and influence at the time.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So kind of like a tech bro with a trolley kind of contrarian attitude. But knowing Putin and Russia, that’s probably a pretty dangerous position to take at that time in that country.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. As the popularity of the service takes off, it’s also drawing the attention of the Russian authorities, who start coming to Durov and the company for information about users. And it becomes a source of tension. And it’s also a point where you start to see Durov’s anti-authority streak come forward. When the authorities were asking for information about some opposition politicians, he responded online by posting a picture of a hoodie-wearing dog. And he said, this is my official response to the intelligence services.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So thumbing his nose at the Russian authorities, which, as we all know, can be a little dangerous.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly And it comes to a head over some Ukrainian activists that the Russian authorities want Durov to provide information about. And it becomes this moment where he is forced to decide whether or not he’s going to cooperate with Russian authorities or if he is going to have to hand it over. So he is essentially forced to sell the company. He chooses that.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Durov is essentially forced to abandon his own darling here, his company that he built from scratch. And he chooses to do that rather than to see it become something that he doesn’t agree with.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That must have been pretty painful.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, it was.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-safvus">archived recording (pavel durov)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Obviously, my first company was my baby. I created it myself. There was a lot of creativity, time, and effort invested in that platform.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Durov doesn’t really give many interviews, but a few months ago, he had one with Tucker Carlson and they touched on this moment.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-safvus">archived recording (pavel durov)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But at the same time, I understood that I would rather be free. I wouldn’t want to take orders from anyone. And I left behind probably a comfortable life.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And he makes it really clear that this was a dilemma, but the choice was clear. For him, he knew what he had to do.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-safvus">archived recording (pavel durov)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">For me, everything in my life was about becoming free.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">archived recording (tucker carlson)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yes.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">archived recording (pavel durov)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And to the extent it is possible, my mission in life was to allow other people to also become free, in a sense. And using the platforms that we create or I created, my hope was that they could express their freedoms.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">For Durov, this moment ends up being a really important inflection point in his life because, in the middle of all this, getting all this pressure from Russian authorities, in losing VK, he starts to build a communications platform that he hopes will sit outside any government and that they won’t be able to crack down on. And that tool is Telegram.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So tell me about the birth of Telegram. How does it get started?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Durov starts Telegram in 2013. And it’s the next year, in January 2014, that they announced that he’s lost VK. And he decides to leave Russia and look for a new place to push ahead with this new project. And so he and a handful of engineers, they bounce around to different places. They become something like digital nomads. They’re in Berlin, they’re in London, they’re in San Francisco. They even push out a software update from a boat in Southeast Asia.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Wow.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They eventually land in Dubai, where Durov says that the government has given assurances that they won’t meddle in what they’re doing. And he feels it’s a place can be a long-term home for Telegram.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What does Telegram look like in those early days?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So when Telegram first comes out, it’s basically a simple messaging app like iMessage or WhatsApp. You can text your friends. You can start small group chats. But over the next few years, Telegram becomes much, much more. In 2015, they added something called channels, and these are basically one-way broadcasting features.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Any user can start a channel. You send a message, and anyone who subscribes will receive it. And governments, public figures, and others begin to flock there. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is there. You have government agencies that post updates there. But it’s also all sorts of random, quirky stuff too. You can get reality TV news from Brazil there. You can get math lessons in India there, prepare for Civil Service exams. It really runs the gamut.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Telegram is already beginning to sort of transition here from a pure messaging app to some kind of social media platform.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly. And they continue down this path. In 2015, they also introduce something called supergroups. And it’s like a typical group chat, but a lot more people. And so these supergroups start out with 1,000 people user cap. But over the course of the next few years, Telegram increases the cap exponentially. It’s 5,000, then 10,000, then 100,000, all the way up to 200,000 in 2019.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how unusual is this, Adam? Do the other tech companies have features like this?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Not in the same way, no. In fact, as they were expanding the number of people who could participate in these kind of groups, others, like WhatsApp, were going the other direction because of concerns that were being raised about the spread of misinformation or disinformation. And so you have Telegram really moving in a different direction from these other platforms. And it helps distinguish it and it helps it grow.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how much is it growing? How popular does Telegram actually get?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Telegram starts off with 100,000 users in 2013. And just three years later, it’s grown to 100 million users. And today, Telegram has nearly a billion active users. And so just to give you some sense of context, it’s the fourth most popular messaging app in the world behind WhatsApp, WeChat, the giant Chinese messaging service, and Facebook Messenger.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s just a wild number of people.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It really is. And what’s wilder to me is that over the years, as Telegram is exploding in popularity, the company itself stays essentially the same size. So Telegram has around 60 core employees. And it basically operates still like it’s a small startup. There’s no HR Department. There’s a stitched together content moderation team. There’s Durov at the top and some other core employees, and that’s it.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This is just so remarkable because when you think of big tech platforms, say like Meta, for example, you think of them employing tens of thousands of workers, not fewer than 100, like you have here with Telegram.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Absolutely. And it’s really a reflection of what Telegram is.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">They don’t have a large team of content moderators because they don’t need one. They don’t believe in it. They’re not interested in limiting what their users say or do. Telegram bills itself as anti-establishment. It’s anti-authoritarian. It’s free speech. It’s what Durov believes in. And he’s become the sort of free speech folk hero in the tech community.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that ethos is what attracts hundreds of millions of users to Telegram, but it’s also what lays the groundwork for Durov’s problems, because some of those users who are flocking to Telegram are doing so for some pretty nefarious reasons.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Adam, you said that Telegram’s ethos created this kind of free-for-all, which ultimately led to Durov’s problems. And that is, of course, what you and our colleagues have been investigating. So what is actually happening on this platform?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, so by the time Pavel Durov was arrested getting off his jet in Paris, myself and some other colleagues, we were months into an investigation into Telegram. So using software, we were able to analyze 3.2 million messages on Telegram across 16,000 channels. And what we soon began to find as we looked deeper is the volume of criminal and extremist behavior that is happening on there was really quite shocking.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And, Adam, when you started to look into these channels, what exactly did you find?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">One of the main things that we found was the volume of sort of white supremacy and white supremacist groups that are operating in Europe and the United States, especially. And they use Telegram for communication, for recruitment, for sharing their ideology. And in some respects, you see that these groups are also a place for staging violence. There’s a group called Teregram that’s been designated a terror organization in the UK, where they are plotting violence and sharing information about weapons and other ways to stage potential attacks. And it’s really provided a haven for them to grow.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So, Adam, give me an example of a group that really has used all of these features of Telegram, as you’re saying.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">One of the clearest examples that we found is Hamas.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-safvus">speaker</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so when Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, it announced the assault on Telegram.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">crowd</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Within a few hours of moving in, they began posting all sorts of videos of the carnage.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And you’ve got over a three-day stretch where they’ve posted something nearly 700 times. And they get over 54 million views, according to the analysis that we did. Some of the videos of the hostages were shared over Telegram before some of these people were killed. Telegram was this key, key piece of the Hamas propaganda strategy. And so it provides this massive megaphone for Hamas to share its messaging.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What else did you find in your investigation?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">One of the most surprising things we were able to find is the extent to which Telegram acts as a black market.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It is a clearinghouse for all sorts of illegal goods. You can buy handguns. You can buy machine guns. You can buy cocaine. You can buy MDMA. You can buy fraudulent ATM cards. The list goes on, and on, and on.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So in other words, it really simplifies the process of buying or selling something illegal online. You don’t have to be a specialist. You can just be anyone with the Telegram app.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly. And it’s happening brazenly. They post videos of people opening their deliveries, which they will call touchdowns. And it has all sorts of slang that’s used within a lot of these groups for buying drugs or guns. They act like salesmen, like, oh, I can make a good deal for you. I can deliver to these 30 countries. They talk about how to make payments using cryptocurrencies. They’ll have videos of packages of pharmaceuticals that they have for sale. So it’s this kind of open air drug and gun market within an iPhone app.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so you have to sort of step back and think like, oh, well, bad stuff is on the internet. Who cares? But usually, for this kind of stuff, you have to use the dark web, which requires a special kind of browser. And it has all sorts of hoops that you might have to jump through. With Telegram, it’s a simple to use app right there on your phone, in your pocket. And people have called it the dark web in your pocket.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So, Adam, this is pretty remarkable. Just how much illegal activity is happening on Telegram, kind of in plain sight? What can governments and law enforcement do to combat this kind of activity? How are they dealing with this?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The governments haven’t been able to do much, in large part because Durov and Telegram have refused to cooperate. We spoke to law enforcement and government agencies around the world who expressed extreme frustration in trying to get any sort of cooperation from Telegram. The NYPD told us that they don’t even bother to send requests anymore because they don’t get any help from Telegram.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They’ve stopped even trying.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, and German prosecutors told us the same thing. I spoke to somebody who just conducted a bunch of research in Argentina. And there, they have a prosecutor unit dedicated to child sexual abuse material. They can’t get any help from Telegram. And so it’s this black box, where Telegram does not cooperate with law enforcement.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I think this is a really important point that is what has gotten Telegram into perhaps the most trouble is that companies like Google, Meta, TikTok, they have teams of people who are responsible for responding to requests from law enforcement and thousands of moderators who will take down all sorts of material. Telegram doesn’t have that. And so therefore, you end up in a situation where there is a lot of illegal activity happening on the platform and nothing is being done about it. And if you’re a police department, if you’re a prosecutor, that is immensely frustrating and infuriating.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So this s brings us, Adam, to Pavel Durov’s arrest in France and really helps me understand what the French government might have been trying to tell him. Bring me back to that case and tell me where it stands now.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Pavel Durov is in France now awaiting trial. At least one of the charges carries an up to 10-year prison sentence. And the first word of the press release that the French prosecutors put out was complicity. And they’re essentially saying that Pavel Durov is complicit in all these crimes that include child pornography, drug trafficking, gang fraud, criminal conspiracy. The list goes on.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they’re saying that because he and his company were so uncooperative in trying to deal with these different crimes, they say that there was an almost total lack of response from Telegram to legal requests. And they finally had enough. And so when his plane landed in France, they grabbed him.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And this is pretty unusual? When it comes to social media, we haven’t really seen a big tech CEO held criminally responsible for something like this.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Absolutely. His arrest is a big move by the French authorities. There’s little precedent for something like this. They’re essentially holding him, as the CEO of the company, responsible for the behavior of others, basically saying he’s an accomplice. He’s complicit. And this is not usually how governments have handled these sorts of crimes on social media.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And what has Durov said in response? What’s his defense?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So his main defense seems to be, I’m not responsible for what users do on my platform. He didn’t sell the drugs. He didn’t sell the guns. He’s also said that Telegram is a victim of its success. It grew too fast. And he expressed some contrition, saying they were going to put certain new policies in place to respond more quickly to certain law enforcement requests and to moderate more content.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But beyond that, this arrest really cuts to the core of what Telegram stands for. It’s like what they’ve been trying to achieve. For Durov, the whole point of Telegram is to create a platform that’s free from government interference. It’s not going to submit to government requests. That it stands with its users, not with governments. And in places like Russia and Iran, Telegram has been seen as a force for good.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that makes sense if you’re a guy who grew up in Russia, where the government calls anyone it disagrees with a criminal or a terrorist. But in a lot of the rest of the world, including France, people live by laws, not by the whims of an authoritarian leader like Putin. And if they break those laws, the government comes after them, as it should.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Durov would have us believe that this situation is incredibly black and white, that in order to have a free space where anyone can openly express themselves, you have to have minimal moderation. It’s like censorship or no. And he’s arguing that the trade-off is worth it, that it’s better to have Hamas broadcasting and understanding their point of view than to have a Russian police state. But the thing is, it’s not totally clear that the situation is this black and white.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Most of the tech sector doesn’t work this way. Other social media sites like Facebook or YouTube, which are by no means perfect, they have fairly robust policies and teams in place trying to keep the worst activity off their platforms. And they do a fairly good job of cultivating a marketplace for ideas. But like you said, that isn’t how Durov sees the world. He has a very black and white view. And there’s a really good chance that he’s going to be held accountable for the consequences of holding on to those ideals so tightly.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Adam, thank you.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thank you.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Here’s what else you should know today. Over the weekend, a devastating Israeli airstrike on the Lebanese militant group, Hezbollah, in Central Beirut on Friday killed at least 37, including two commanders. The attack leveled two apartment buildings and plunged Lebanon into further chaos days after pagers and walkie talkies belonging to Hezbollah members exploded en masse. The attacks appeared to mark a stark shift in the calculations that have long governed the decades-old conflict between Israel and Lebanon’s most powerful militant group.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Until last week, Israel had refrained from launching the kind of attacks that its leaders had feared could provoke retaliatory strikes by Hezbollah. But over the past few days, Israel has crossed what had unofficially been considered red lines. “The Times” reports that Israel’s moves seem to indicate that the country’s leaders have decided they can no longer live with the threat of Hezbollah on their northern border.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And the Georgia State election board voted on Friday to force counties to hand-count all ballots cast on election day, a move that critics say could significantly delay the reporting of results in the battleground state and inject chaos into the post-election period. The new rule, which passed on a three-to-two vote, runs counter to extensive legal advice from election officials and law enforcement officials in the state. The new rule is the latest in a stream of right wing election policies passed by the state election board over the past few months.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s episode was produced by Luke Vander Ploeg and Will Reid, with help from Jessica Cheung and Carlos Prieto. It was edited by Brendan Klinkenberg, contains original music by Marion Lozano, Rowan Niemisto, and Diane Wong, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s it for The Daily. I’m Sabrina Tavernise. See you tomorrow.</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div><div style="position:absolute;width:0;height:0;visibility:hidden;display:none"></div><header class="css-1vwfk9f" data-breakpoint=""><div style="width:100%" data-testid="default-layout"><div style="background-image:url(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/01/29/podcasts/the-daily-album-art/the-daily-album-art-videoFifteenBySeven2610-v4.jpg)" class="css-18qqsen e1eullfg0"><div class="css-1hmsypo e1eullfg2"><div class="css-131hid3 e1eullfg3"><div class="css-1uhi299 e1eullfg1"></div><div class="css-1tloyb6"><div class="css-1djf3wc ehra6vc0"><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/the-daily" class="css-2ne0py"><span class="css-4oqdoz"><img alt="The Daily logo" src="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/01/29/podcasts/the-daily-album-art/the-daily-album-art-square320-v5.jpg"/><span>The Daily</span></span></a><span class="css-i4bp6j ehra6vc1"><span class="css-sj5ozi ehra6vc2">Subscribe:</span><ul class="css-hrux5n"><li><a 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-->0:00</div></div></div></div></header><div class="css-uzyn7p"><div class="css-1vxywau"><p class="css-1nng8z9">transcript</p><h2 class="css-8p0vwh">How Telegram Became the Underworld’s Favorite App</h2><h4 class="css-qsd3hm">Drug dealers, scammers and white nationalists openly conduct business on the platform, according to a Times analysis.</h4><time dateTime="2024-09-23T10:00:17.000Z" class="css-1e6es05">2024-09-23T06:00:17-04:00</time></div><dl class="css-p98d0w"><dt class="css-safvus"></dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">From “The New York Times,” I’m Sabrina Tavernise, and this is The Daily.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">A “Times” investigation has found that one of the world’s biggest messaging apps with nearly a billion users is also a giant black market and gathering place for terrorists and white supremacists. Today, my colleague, Adam Satariano, on the extraordinary story of Telegram and how it’s led to one of the first arrests of a social media CEO in history.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It’s Monday. September 23.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Adam, welcome back to the show.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thanks for having me.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So, Adam, you and our colleagues just published a big investigation into what’s going on inside this giant messaging app called Telegram. And it really came at the perfect time because the founder of the platform was arrested in France just a few weeks ago. So tell us what happened.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So this was a fascinating case. So this guy, Pavel Durov, a Russian tech billionaire, his private plane lands at an airport outside Paris. And he is immediately picked up by the French authorities and detained. And the French authorities at first are providing very little detail about what happened. It happens over a weekend. There’s not much public statements being put out. There’s a few French media reports.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And then a few days later, the French prosecutors put out a press release, one page long, and it just lists all these different things that he’s been charged with, complicity in crimes, including the spread of child pornography, drug trafficking, organized gang fraud, criminal conspiracy. And this was a shock and an important moment because Telegram is a massive platform that’s used by almost a billion people around the world. And it raised this really fascinating question of, to what extent does the head of a tech company be held responsible for what users of that service are now doing?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So this is a huge platform. A big chunk of the world uses it. And its founder, Durov, is in trouble because of what’s happening on it. So let’s start with him, Durov. Tell me about him.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">He’s a fascinating character. He was born in the Soviet Union. He moved to Italy when he was a child. His father was an academic and was working there. And then after the fall of the Soviet Union, they moved back to St Petersburg. And he and his brother, who is a real engineering whiz, become fascinated with an IBM computer that they had brought back with them from Italy.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And when Pavel is in university, he’s shown Facebook for the first time, and he becomes fascinated by it. And he’s like, I want to create my own. And so they start their own version of Facebook geared towards Russia, a company known as VK.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[RUSSIAN], as it’s known in Russian.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yes. And it explodes in popularity. And Durov himself begins to develop a bit of a profile.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">On the one hand, he becomes known as Russia’s Mark Zuckerberg. He starts a social media company. It’s at a time when having a start up like that is cool. He’s being written about in places like TechCrunch and other Western press. But on the other hand, he’s sort of a loose cannon. He has this incident where he throws cash out the window of their offices in Saint Petersburg and it leads to a street fight down below.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Another instance, he hit a police officer with a car when he’s trying to evade a traffic stop because he had driven onto the sidewalk to avoid traffic. And so he has this kind of trollish element to him, but he’s one who has a lot of money and, therefore, a lot of power and influence at the time.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So kind of like a tech bro with a trolley kind of contrarian attitude. But knowing Putin and Russia, that’s probably a pretty dangerous position to take at that time in that country.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. As the popularity of the service takes off, it’s also drawing the attention of the Russian authorities, who start coming to Durov and the company for information about users. And it becomes a source of tension. And it’s also a point where you start to see Durov’s anti-authority streak come forward. When the authorities were asking for information about some opposition politicians, he responded online by posting a picture of a hoodie-wearing dog. And he said, this is my official response to the intelligence services.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So thumbing his nose at the Russian authorities, which, as we all know, can be a little dangerous.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly And it comes to a head over some Ukrainian activists that the Russian authorities want Durov to provide information about. And it becomes this moment where he is forced to decide whether or not he’s going to cooperate with Russian authorities or if he is going to have to hand it over. So he is essentially forced to sell the company. He chooses that.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Durov is essentially forced to abandon his own darling here, his company that he built from scratch. And he chooses to do that rather than to see it become something that he doesn’t agree with.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That must have been pretty painful.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, it was.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-safvus">archived recording (pavel durov)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Obviously, my first company was my baby. I created it myself. There was a lot of creativity, time, and effort invested in that platform.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Durov doesn’t really give many interviews, but a few months ago, he had one with Tucker Carlson and they touched on this moment.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-safvus">archived recording (pavel durov)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">But at the same time, I understood that I would rather be free. I wouldn’t want to take orders from anyone. And I left behind probably a comfortable life.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And he makes it really clear that this was a dilemma, but the choice was clear. For him, he knew what he had to do.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-safvus">archived recording (pavel durov)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">For me, everything in my life was about becoming free.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">archived recording (tucker carlson)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yes.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">archived recording (pavel durov)</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And to the extent it is possible, my mission in life was to allow other people to also become free, in a sense. And using the platforms that we create or I created, my hope was that they could express their freedoms.</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">For Durov, this moment ends up being a really important inflection point in his life because, in the middle of all this, getting all this pressure from Russian authorities, in losing VK, he starts to build a communications platform that he hopes will sit outside any government and that they won’t be able to crack down on. And that tool is Telegram.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So tell me about the birth of Telegram. How does it get started?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Durov starts Telegram in 2013. And it’s the next year, in January 2014, that they announced that he’s lost VK. And he decides to leave Russia and look for a new place to push ahead with this new project. And so he and a handful of engineers, they bounce around to different places. They become something like digital nomads. They’re in Berlin, they’re in London, they’re in San Francisco. They even push out a software update from a boat in Southeast Asia.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Wow.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They eventually land in Dubai, where Durov says that the government has given assurances that they won’t meddle in what they’re doing. And he feels it’s a place can be a long-term home for Telegram.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What does Telegram look like in those early days?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So when Telegram first comes out, it’s basically a simple messaging app like iMessage or WhatsApp. You can text your friends. You can start small group chats. But over the next few years, Telegram becomes much, much more. In 2015, they added something called channels, and these are basically one-way broadcasting features.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Any user can start a channel. You send a message, and anyone who subscribes will receive it. And governments, public figures, and others begin to flock there. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is there. You have government agencies that post updates there. But it’s also all sorts of random, quirky stuff too. You can get reality TV news from Brazil there. You can get math lessons in India there, prepare for Civil Service exams. It really runs the gamut.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Telegram is already beginning to sort of transition here from a pure messaging app to some kind of social media platform.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly. And they continue down this path. In 2015, they also introduce something called supergroups. And it’s like a typical group chat, but a lot more people. And so these supergroups start out with 1,000 people user cap. But over the course of the next few years, Telegram increases the cap exponentially. It’s 5,000, then 10,000, then 100,000, all the way up to 200,000 in 2019.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how unusual is this, Adam? Do the other tech companies have features like this?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Not in the same way, no. In fact, as they were expanding the number of people who could participate in these kind of groups, others, like WhatsApp, were going the other direction because of concerns that were being raised about the spread of misinformation or disinformation. And so you have Telegram really moving in a different direction from these other platforms. And it helps distinguish it and it helps it grow.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And how much is it growing? How popular does Telegram actually get?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Telegram starts off with 100,000 users in 2013. And just three years later, it’s grown to 100 million users. And today, Telegram has nearly a billion active users. And so just to give you some sense of context, it’s the fourth most popular messaging app in the world behind WhatsApp, WeChat, the giant Chinese messaging service, and Facebook Messenger.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s just a wild number of people.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">It really is. And what’s wilder to me is that over the years, as Telegram is exploding in popularity, the company itself stays essentially the same size. So Telegram has around 60 core employees. And it basically operates still like it’s a small startup. There’s no HR Department. There’s a stitched together content moderation team. There’s Durov at the top and some other core employees, and that’s it.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">This is just so remarkable because when you think of big tech platforms, say like Meta, for example, you think of them employing tens of thousands of workers, not fewer than 100, like you have here with Telegram.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Absolutely. And it’s really a reflection of what Telegram is.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">They don’t have a large team of content moderators because they don’t need one. They don’t believe in it. They’re not interested in limiting what their users say or do. Telegram bills itself as anti-establishment. It’s anti-authoritarian. It’s free speech. It’s what Durov believes in. And he’s become the sort of free speech folk hero in the tech community.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that ethos is what attracts hundreds of millions of users to Telegram, but it’s also what lays the groundwork for Durov’s problems, because some of those users who are flocking to Telegram are doing so for some pretty nefarious reasons.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Adam, you said that Telegram’s ethos created this kind of free-for-all, which ultimately led to Durov’s problems. And that is, of course, what you and our colleagues have been investigating. So what is actually happening on this platform?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, so by the time Pavel Durov was arrested getting off his jet in Paris, myself and some other colleagues, we were months into an investigation into Telegram. So using software, we were able to analyze 3.2 million messages on Telegram across 16,000 channels. And what we soon began to find as we looked deeper is the volume of criminal and extremist behavior that is happening on there was really quite shocking.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And, Adam, when you started to look into these channels, what exactly did you find?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">One of the main things that we found was the volume of sort of white supremacy and white supremacist groups that are operating in Europe and the United States, especially. And they use Telegram for communication, for recruitment, for sharing their ideology. And in some respects, you see that these groups are also a place for staging violence. There’s a group called Teregram that’s been designated a terror organization in the UK, where they are plotting violence and sharing information about weapons and other ways to stage potential attacks. And it’s really provided a haven for them to grow.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So, Adam, give me an example of a group that really has used all of these features of Telegram, as you’re saying.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">One of the clearest examples that we found is Hamas.</p></dd><dl class="css-1jysr6y"><dt class="css-safvus">speaker</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]</p></dd></dl><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so when Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, it announced the assault on Telegram.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">crowd</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Within a few hours of moving in, they began posting all sorts of videos of the carnage.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And you’ve got over a three-day stretch where they’ve posted something nearly 700 times. And they get over 54 million views, according to the analysis that we did. Some of the videos of the hostages were shared over Telegram before some of these people were killed. Telegram was this key, key piece of the Hamas propaganda strategy. And so it provides this massive megaphone for Hamas to share its messaging.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">What else did you find in your investigation?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">One of the most surprising things we were able to find is the extent to which Telegram acts as a black market.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">It is a clearinghouse for all sorts of illegal goods. You can buy handguns. You can buy machine guns. You can buy cocaine. You can buy MDMA. You can buy fraudulent ATM cards. The list goes on, and on, and on.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So in other words, it really simplifies the process of buying or selling something illegal online. You don’t have to be a specialist. You can just be anyone with the Telegram app.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Exactly. And it’s happening brazenly. They post videos of people opening their deliveries, which they will call touchdowns. And it has all sorts of slang that’s used within a lot of these groups for buying drugs or guns. They act like salesmen, like, oh, I can make a good deal for you. I can deliver to these 30 countries. They talk about how to make payments using cryptocurrencies. They’ll have videos of packages of pharmaceuticals that they have for sale. So it’s this kind of open air drug and gun market within an iPhone app.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so you have to sort of step back and think like, oh, well, bad stuff is on the internet. Who cares? But usually, for this kind of stuff, you have to use the dark web, which requires a special kind of browser. And it has all sorts of hoops that you might have to jump through. With Telegram, it’s a simple to use app right there on your phone, in your pocket. And people have called it the dark web in your pocket.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So, Adam, this is pretty remarkable. Just how much illegal activity is happening on Telegram, kind of in plain sight? What can governments and law enforcement do to combat this kind of activity? How are they dealing with this?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">The governments haven’t been able to do much, in large part because Durov and Telegram have refused to cooperate. We spoke to law enforcement and government agencies around the world who expressed extreme frustration in trying to get any sort of cooperation from Telegram. The NYPD told us that they don’t even bother to send requests anymore because they don’t get any help from Telegram.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">They’ve stopped even trying.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Yeah, and German prosecutors told us the same thing. I spoke to somebody who just conducted a bunch of research in Argentina. And there, they have a prosecutor unit dedicated to child sexual abuse material. They can’t get any help from Telegram. And so it’s this black box, where Telegram does not cooperate with law enforcement.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And I think this is a really important point that is what has gotten Telegram into perhaps the most trouble is that companies like Google, Meta, TikTok, they have teams of people who are responsible for responding to requests from law enforcement and thousands of moderators who will take down all sorts of material. Telegram doesn’t have that. And so therefore, you end up in a situation where there is a lot of illegal activity happening on the platform and nothing is being done about it. And if you’re a police department, if you’re a prosecutor, that is immensely frustrating and infuriating.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So this s brings us, Adam, to Pavel Durov’s arrest in France and really helps me understand what the French government might have been trying to tell him. Bring me back to that case and tell me where it stands now.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So Pavel Durov is in France now awaiting trial. At least one of the charges carries an up to 10-year prison sentence. And the first word of the press release that the French prosecutors put out was complicity. And they’re essentially saying that Pavel Durov is complicit in all these crimes that include child pornography, drug trafficking, gang fraud, criminal conspiracy. The list goes on.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And so they’re saying that because he and his company were so uncooperative in trying to deal with these different crimes, they say that there was an almost total lack of response from Telegram to legal requests. And they finally had enough. And so when his plane landed in France, they grabbed him.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And this is pretty unusual? When it comes to social media, we haven’t really seen a big tech CEO held criminally responsible for something like this.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Absolutely. His arrest is a big move by the French authorities. There’s little precedent for something like this. They’re essentially holding him, as the CEO of the company, responsible for the behavior of others, basically saying he’s an accomplice. He’s complicit. And this is not usually how governments have handled these sorts of crimes on social media.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And what has Durov said in response? What’s his defense?</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">So his main defense seems to be, I’m not responsible for what users do on my platform. He didn’t sell the drugs. He didn’t sell the guns. He’s also said that Telegram is a victim of its success. It grew too fast. And he expressed some contrition, saying they were going to put certain new policies in place to respond more quickly to certain law enforcement requests and to moderate more content.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">But beyond that, this arrest really cuts to the core of what Telegram stands for. It’s like what they’ve been trying to achieve. For Durov, the whole point of Telegram is to create a platform that’s free from government interference. It’s not going to submit to government requests. That it stands with its users, not with governments. And in places like Russia and Iran, Telegram has been seen as a force for good.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">And that makes sense if you’re a guy who grew up in Russia, where the government calls anyone it disagrees with a criminal or a terrorist. But in a lot of the rest of the world, including France, people live by laws, not by the whims of an authoritarian leader like Putin. And if they break those laws, the government comes after them, as it should.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Right. Durov would have us believe that this situation is incredibly black and white, that in order to have a free space where anyone can openly express themselves, you have to have minimal moderation. It’s like censorship or no. And he’s arguing that the trade-off is worth it, that it’s better to have Hamas broadcasting and understanding their point of view than to have a Russian police state. But the thing is, it’s not totally clear that the situation is this black and white.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">[MUSIC PLAYING]</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Most of the tech sector doesn’t work this way. Other social media sites like Facebook or YouTube, which are by no means perfect, they have fairly robust policies and teams in place trying to keep the worst activity off their platforms. And they do a fairly good job of cultivating a marketplace for ideas. But like you said, that isn’t how Durov sees the world. He has a very black and white view. And there’s a really good chance that he’s going to be held accountable for the consequences of holding on to those ideals so tightly.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Adam, thank you.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">adam satariano</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">Thank you.</p></dd><dt class="css-safvus">sabrina tavernise</dt><dd class="css-4gvq6l"><p class="css-8hvvyd">We’ll be right back.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Here’s what else you should know today. Over the weekend, a devastating Israeli airstrike on the Lebanese militant group, Hezbollah, in Central Beirut on Friday killed at least 37, including two commanders. The attack leveled two apartment buildings and plunged Lebanon into further chaos days after pagers and walkie talkies belonging to Hezbollah members exploded en masse. The attacks appeared to mark a stark shift in the calculations that have long governed the decades-old conflict between Israel and Lebanon’s most powerful militant group.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Until last week, Israel had refrained from launching the kind of attacks that its leaders had feared could provoke retaliatory strikes by Hezbollah. But over the past few days, Israel has crossed what had unofficially been considered red lines. “The Times” reports that Israel’s moves seem to indicate that the country’s leaders have decided they can no longer live with the threat of Hezbollah on their northern border.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">And the Georgia State election board voted on Friday to force counties to hand-count all ballots cast on election day, a move that critics say could significantly delay the reporting of results in the battleground state and inject chaos into the post-election period. The new rule, which passed on a three-to-two vote, runs counter to extensive legal advice from election officials and law enforcement officials in the state. The new rule is the latest in a stream of right wing election policies passed by the state election board over the past few months.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">Today’s episode was produced by Luke Vander Ploeg and Will Reid, with help from Jessica Cheung and Carlos Prieto. It was edited by Brendan Klinkenberg, contains original music by Marion Lozano, Rowan Niemisto, and Diane Wong, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly.</p><p class="css-8hvvyd">That’s it for The Daily. I’m Sabrina Tavernise. See you tomorrow.</p></dd></dl></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1xgepvx e1eullfg5"></div></div></div></div><div class="css-fnovkn e1gfokfg0"><button type="button" class="css-nb9ngq" disabled=""><span class="css-1ly73wi e1tej78p0">Previous</span><svg width="13" height="23" viewBox="0 0 13 23" fill="none" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M15 15V15.0054H0V13.0054H13.0054V0H15.0054V15H15Z" transform="translate(22.1133 11.5027) rotate(135)" fill="#E2E2E2"></path></svg></button><div class="css-1s78rjm e1gfokfg1"><div data-recirc-bar-item="true" class="css-uq6cyc e1gfokfg3"><div class="css-hoe9xz"><span class="css-l790rr">More episodes of</span><span class="css-19zi9mh">The Daily</span></div></div><div data-recirc-bar-item="true" class="css-uq6cyc e1gfokfg3"><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/19/podcasts/the-daily/trump-ederal-workers-musk.html?action=click&module=audio-series-bar&region=header&pgtype=Article"><img alt="" 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width="40" height="40" viewBox="0 0 40 40" fill="none" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><path d="M40 20C40 31.0457 31.0457 40 20 40C8.9543 40 0 31.0457 0 20C0 8.9543 8.9543 0 20 0C31.0457 0 40 8.9543 40 20Z" fill="black" fill-opacity="0.2"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M20 38C29.9411 38 38 29.9411 38 20C38 10.0589 29.9411 2 20 2C10.0589 2 2 10.0589 2 20C2 29.9411 10.0589 38 20 38ZM20 40C31.0457 40 40 31.0457 40 20C40 8.9543 31.0457 0 20 0C8.9543 0 0 8.9543 0 20C0 31.0457 8.9543 40 20 40Z" fill="white"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M9.91667 5.83333L0 11.6667V0L9.91667 5.83333Z" transform="translate(17.082 14.1666)" fill="white"></path></svg></span></div><div class="css-1qq8bvn"><time class="css-155ecpy">February 17, 2025<span> <span class="css-orcm78">•</span> <!-- -->23:11</span></time><span class="css-i5svdo">Trump Shocks Europe</span></div></a></div><div data-recirc-bar-item="true" class="css-uq6cyc e1gfokfg3"><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/14/podcasts/the-daily/trump-musk-mayor-adams-putin.html?action=click&module=audio-series-bar&region=header&pgtype=Article"><img alt="" src="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2025/02/13/podcasts/the-daily/DAILY-16X9/DAILY-16X9-thumbLarge.jpg" class="css-17x2avq e1gfokfg4"/><div class="css-14o8mz7 e1gfokfg2"><span><svg width="40" height="40" viewBox="0 0 40 40" fill="none" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><path d="M40 20C40 31.0457 31.0457 40 20 40C8.9543 40 0 31.0457 0 20C0 8.9543 8.9543 0 20 0C31.0457 0 40 8.9543 40 20Z" fill="black" fill-opacity="0.2"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M20 38C29.9411 38 38 29.9411 38 20C38 10.0589 29.9411 2 20 2C10.0589 2 2 10.0589 2 20C2 29.9411 10.0589 38 20 38ZM20 40C31.0457 40 40 31.0457 40 20C40 8.9543 31.0457 0 20 0C8.9543 0 0 8.9543 0 20C0 31.0457 8.9543 40 20 40Z" fill="white"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M9.91667 5.83333L0 11.6667V0L9.91667 5.83333Z" 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29.9411 38 20C38 10.0589 29.9411 2 20 2C10.0589 2 2 10.0589 2 20C2 29.9411 10.0589 38 20 38ZM20 40C31.0457 40 40 31.0457 40 20C40 8.9543 31.0457 0 20 0C8.9543 0 0 8.9543 0 20C0 31.0457 8.9543 40 20 40Z" fill="white"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M9.91667 5.83333L0 11.6667V0L9.91667 5.83333Z" transform="translate(17.082 14.1666)" fill="white"></path></svg></span></div><div class="css-1qq8bvn"><time class="css-155ecpy">February 13, 2025<span> <span class="css-orcm78">•</span> <!-- -->27:02</span></time><span class="css-i5svdo">How Close Are We to Another Pandemic?</span></div></a></div><div data-recirc-bar-item="true" class="css-uq6cyc e1gfokfg3"><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/12/podcasts/the-daily/trump-executive-orders-constitutional-crisis.html?action=click&module=audio-series-bar&region=header&pgtype=Article"><img alt="" src="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2025/02/12/multimedia/12Daily-Constitution-zqbm/12Daily-Constitution-zqbm-thumbLarge-v2.jpg" class="css-17x2avq e1gfokfg4"/><div class="css-14o8mz7 e1gfokfg2"><span><svg width="40" height="40" viewBox="0 0 40 40" fill="none" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><path d="M40 20C40 31.0457 31.0457 40 20 40C8.9543 40 0 31.0457 0 20C0 8.9543 8.9543 0 20 0C31.0457 0 40 8.9543 40 20Z" fill="black" fill-opacity="0.2"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M20 38C29.9411 38 38 29.9411 38 20C38 10.0589 29.9411 2 20 2C10.0589 2 2 10.0589 2 20C2 29.9411 10.0589 38 20 38ZM20 40C31.0457 40 40 31.0457 40 20C40 8.9543 31.0457 0 20 0C8.9543 0 0 8.9543 0 20C0 31.0457 8.9543 40 20 40Z" fill="white"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M9.91667 5.83333L0 11.6667V0L9.91667 5.83333Z" transform="translate(17.082 14.1666)" fill="white"></path></svg></span></div><div class="css-1qq8bvn"><time class="css-155ecpy">February 12, 2025<span> <span class="css-orcm78">•</span> <!-- -->26:10</span></time><span class="css-i5svdo">A Constitutional 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8.9543 0 20 0C31.0457 0 40 8.9543 40 20Z" fill="black" fill-opacity="0.2"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M20 38C29.9411 38 38 29.9411 38 20C38 10.0589 29.9411 2 20 2C10.0589 2 2 10.0589 2 20C2 29.9411 10.0589 38 20 38ZM20 40C31.0457 40 40 31.0457 40 20C40 8.9543 31.0457 0 20 0C8.9543 0 0 8.9543 0 20C0 31.0457 8.9543 40 20 40Z" fill="white"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M9.91667 5.83333L0 11.6667V0L9.91667 5.83333Z" transform="translate(17.082 14.1666)" fill="white"></path></svg></span></div><div class="css-1qq8bvn"><time class="css-155ecpy">February 10, 2025<span> <span class="css-orcm78">•</span> <!-- -->29:16</span></time><span class="css-i5svdo">China Seems Unstoppable. 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40Z" fill="white"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M9.91667 5.83333L0 11.6667V0L9.91667 5.83333Z" transform="translate(17.082 14.1666)" fill="white"></path></svg></span></div><div class="css-1qq8bvn"><time class="css-155ecpy">February 9, 2025</time><span class="css-i5svdo">The Sunday Read: ‘Some Raw Truths About Raw Milk’</span></div></a></div><div data-recirc-bar-item="true" class="css-uq6cyc e1gfokfg3"><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/07/podcasts/the-daily/not-like-us-kendrick-super-bowl.html?action=click&module=audio-series-bar&region=header&pgtype=Article"><img alt="" src="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2025/02/07/podcasts/07Daily-Drake-Lamar/07Daily-Drake-Lamar-thumbLarge.jpg" class="css-17x2avq e1gfokfg4"/><div class="css-14o8mz7 e1gfokfg2"><span><svg width="40" height="40" viewBox="0 0 40 40" fill="none" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><path d="M40 20C40 31.0457 31.0457 40 20 40C8.9543 40 0 31.0457 0 20C0 8.9543 8.9543 0 20 0C31.0457 0 40 8.9543 40 20Z" fill="black" fill-opacity="0.2"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M20 38C29.9411 38 38 29.9411 38 20C38 10.0589 29.9411 2 20 2C10.0589 2 2 10.0589 2 20C2 29.9411 10.0589 38 20 38ZM20 40C31.0457 40 40 31.0457 40 20C40 8.9543 31.0457 0 20 0C8.9543 0 0 8.9543 0 20C0 31.0457 8.9543 40 20 40Z" fill="white"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M9.91667 5.83333L0 11.6667V0L9.91667 5.83333Z" transform="translate(17.082 14.1666)" fill="white"></path></svg></span></div><div class="css-1qq8bvn"><time class="css-155ecpy">February 7, 2025<span> <span class="css-orcm78">•</span> <!-- -->33:08</span></time><span class="css-i5svdo">The Story of ‘Not Like Us’</span></div></a></div><div data-recirc-bar-item="true" class="css-uq6cyc e1gfokfg3"><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/06/podcasts/the-daily/democratic-party-trump.html?action=click&module=audio-series-bar&region=header&pgtype=Article"><img alt="" src="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2025/02/07/podcasts/the-daily/TheDaily-Episodic-3000x2000/TheDaily-Episodic-3000x2000-thumbLarge.png" class="css-17x2avq e1gfokfg4"/><div class="css-14o8mz7 e1gfokfg2"><span><svg width="40" height="40" viewBox="0 0 40 40" fill="none" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><path d="M40 20C40 31.0457 31.0457 40 20 40C8.9543 40 0 31.0457 0 20C0 8.9543 8.9543 0 20 0C31.0457 0 40 8.9543 40 20Z" fill="black" fill-opacity="0.2"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M20 38C29.9411 38 38 29.9411 38 20C38 10.0589 29.9411 2 20 2C10.0589 2 2 10.0589 2 20C2 29.9411 10.0589 38 20 38ZM20 40C31.0457 40 40 31.0457 40 20C40 8.9543 31.0457 0 20 0C8.9543 0 0 8.9543 0 20C0 31.0457 8.9543 40 20 40Z" fill="white"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M9.91667 5.83333L0 11.6667V0L9.91667 5.83333Z" transform="translate(17.082 14.1666)" fill="white"></path></svg></span></div><div class="css-1qq8bvn"><time class="css-155ecpy">February 6, 2025</time><span class="css-i5svdo">Where Are the Democrats?</span></div></a></div><div data-recirc-bar-item="true" class="css-uq6cyc e1gfokfg3"><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/05/podcasts/the-daily/elon-musk-doge-government.html?action=click&module=audio-series-bar&region=header&pgtype=Article"><img alt="" src="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2025/02/05/multimedia/05Daily-Musk-cfhm/05Daily-Musk-cfhm-thumbLarge.jpg" class="css-17x2avq e1gfokfg4"/><div class="css-14o8mz7 e1gfokfg2"><span><svg width="40" height="40" viewBox="0 0 40 40" fill="none" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><path d="M40 20C40 31.0457 31.0457 40 20 40C8.9543 40 0 31.0457 0 20C0 8.9543 8.9543 0 20 0C31.0457 0 40 8.9543 40 20Z" fill="black" fill-opacity="0.2"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M20 38C29.9411 38 38 29.9411 38 20C38 10.0589 29.9411 2 20 2C10.0589 2 2 10.0589 2 20C2 29.9411 10.0589 38 20 38ZM20 40C31.0457 40 40 31.0457 40 20C40 8.9543 31.0457 0 20 0C8.9543 0 0 8.9543 0 20C0 31.0457 8.9543 40 20 40Z" fill="white"></path><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M9.91667 5.83333L0 11.6667V0L9.91667 5.83333Z" transform="translate(17.082 14.1666)" fill="white"></path></svg></span></div><div class="css-1qq8bvn"><time class="css-155ecpy">February 5, 2025<span> <span class="css-orcm78">•</span> <!-- -->34:18</span></time><span class="css-i5svdo">How Elon Musk Is Infiltrating Washington</span></div></a></div><div data-recirc-bar-item="true" class="css-uq6cyc e1gfokfg3"><div class="css-1o3broy"><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/the-daily" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"><span class="css-l790rr">See All Episodes of</span><span class="css-cbc4vz">The Daily</span></a></div></div></div><button type="button" class="css-1anqzt0"><span class="css-1ly73wi e1tej78p0">Next</span><svg width="13" height="23" viewBox="0 0 13 23" fill="none" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><path fill-rule="evenodd" clip-rule="evenodd" d="M15 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App","contentUrl":"https://nyt.simplecastaudio.com/03d8b493-87fc-4bd1-931f-8a8e9b945d8a/episodes/3ad3c634-1447-4e06-b8b1-3a3675767846/audio/128/default.mp3?awCollectionId=03d8b493-87fc-4bd1-931f-8a8e9b945d8a&awEpisodeId=3ad3c634-1447-4e06-b8b1-3a3675767846&nocache","uploadDate":"2024-09-23T10:00:08.000Z","transcript":"This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions. From \"The New York Times,\" I'm Sabrina Tavernise, and this is The Daily. [MUSIC PLAYING] A \"Times\" investigation has found that one of the world's biggest messaging apps with nearly a billion users is also a giant black market and gathering place for terrorists and white supremacists. Today, my colleague, Adam Satariano, on the extraordinary story of Telegram and how it's led to one of the first arrests of a social media CEO in history. It's Monday. September 23. Adam, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me. So, Adam, you and our colleagues just published a big investigation into what's going on inside this giant messaging app called Telegram. And it really came at the perfect time because the founder of the platform was arrested in France just a few weeks ago. So tell us what happened. So this was a fascinating case. So this guy, Pavel Durov, a Russian tech billionaire, his private plane lands at an airport outside Paris. And he is immediately picked up by the French authorities and detained. And the French authorities at first are providing very little detail about what happened. It happens over a weekend. There's not much public statements being put out. There's a few French media reports. And then a few days later, the French prosecutors put out a press release, one page long, and it just lists all these different things that he's been charged with, complicity in crimes, including the spread of child pornography, drug trafficking, organized gang fraud, criminal conspiracy. And this was a shock and an important moment because Telegram is a massive platform that's used by almost a billion people around the world. And it raised this really fascinating question of, to what extent does the head of a tech company be held responsible for what users of that service are now doing? So this is a huge platform. A big chunk of the world uses it. And its founder, Durov, is in trouble because of what's happening on it. So let's start with him, Durov. Tell me about him. He's a fascinating character. He was born in the Soviet Union. He moved to Italy when he was a child. His father was an academic and was working there. And then after the fall of the Soviet Union, they moved back to St Petersburg. And he and his brother, who is a real engineering whiz, become fascinated with an IBM computer that they had brought back with them from Italy. And when Pavel is in university, he's shown Facebook for the first time, and he becomes fascinated by it. And he's like, I want to create my own. And so they start their own version of Facebook geared towards Russia, a company known as VK. [RUSSIAN], as it's known in Russian. Yes. And it explodes in popularity. And Durov himself begins to develop a bit of a profile. [MUSIC PLAYING] On the one hand, he becomes known as Russia's Mark Zuckerberg. He starts a social media company. It's at a time when having a start up like that is cool. He's being written about in places like TechCrunch and other Western press. But on the other hand, he's sort of a loose cannon. He has this incident where he throws cash out the window of their offices in Saint Petersburg and it leads to a street fight down below. Another instance, he hit a police officer with a car when he's trying to evade a traffic stop because he had driven onto the sidewalk to avoid traffic. And so he has this kind of trollish element to him, but he's one who has a lot of money and, therefore, a lot of power and influence at the time. So kind of like a tech bro with a trolley kind of contrarian attitude. But knowing Putin and Russia, that's probably a pretty dangerous position to take at that time in that country. Right. As the popularity of the service takes off, it's also drawing the attention of the Russian authorities, who start coming to Durov and the company for information about users. And it becomes a source of tension. And it's also a point where you start to see Durov's anti-authority streak come forward. When the authorities were asking for information about some opposition politicians, he responded online by posting a picture of a hoodie-wearing dog. And he said, this is my official response to the intelligence services. So thumbing his nose at the Russian authorities, which, as we all know, can be a little dangerous. Exactly And it comes to a head over some Ukrainian activists that the Russian authorities want Durov to provide information about. And it becomes this moment where he is forced to decide whether or not he's going to cooperate with Russian authorities or if he is going to have to hand it over. So he is essentially forced to sell the company. He chooses that. So Durov is essentially forced to abandon his own darling here, his company that he built from scratch. And he chooses to do that rather than to see it become something that he doesn't agree with. Exactly. That must have been pretty painful. Yeah, it was. Obviously, my first company was my baby. I created it myself. There was a lot of creativity, time, and effort invested in that platform. Durov doesn't really give many interviews, but a few months ago, he had one with Tucker Carlson and they touched on this moment. But at the same time, I understood that I would rather be free. I wouldn't want to take orders from anyone. And I left behind probably a comfortable life. And he makes it really clear that this was a dilemma, but the choice was clear. For him, he knew what he had to do. For me, everything in my life was about becoming free. Yes. And to the extent it is possible, my mission in life was to allow other people to also become free, in a sense. And using the platforms that we create or I created, my hope was that they could express their freedoms. For Durov, this moment ends up being a really important inflection point in his life because, in the middle of all this, getting all this pressure from Russian authorities, in losing VK, he starts to build a communications platform that he hopes will sit outside any government and that they won't be able to crack down on. And that tool is Telegram. So tell me about the birth of Telegram. How does it get started? Durov starts Telegram in 2013. And it's the next year, in January 2014, that they announced that he's lost VK. And he decides to leave Russia and look for a new place to push ahead with this new project. And so he and a handful of engineers, they bounce around to different places. They become something like digital nomads. They're in Berlin, they're in London, they're in San Francisco. They even push out a software update from a boat in Southeast Asia. Wow. They eventually land in Dubai, where Durov says that the government has given assurances that they won't meddle in what they're doing. And he feels it's a place can be a long-term home for Telegram. What does Telegram look like in those early days? So when Telegram first comes out, it's basically a simple messaging app like iMessage or WhatsApp. You can text your friends. You can start small group chats. But over the next few years, Telegram becomes much, much more. In 2015, they added something called channels, and these are basically one-way broadcasting features. [MUSIC PLAYING] Any user can start a channel. You send a message, and anyone who subscribes will receive it. And governments, public figures, and others begin to flock there. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is there. You have government agencies that post updates there. But it's also all sorts of random, quirky stuff too. You can get reality TV news from Brazil there. You can get math lessons in India there, prepare for Civil Service exams. It really runs the gamut. So Telegram is already beginning to sort of transition here from a pure messaging app to some kind of social media platform. Exactly. And they continue down this path. In 2015, they also introduce something called supergroups. And it's like a typical group chat, but a lot more people. And so these supergroups start out with 1,000 people user cap. But over the course of the next few years, Telegram increases the cap exponentially. It's 5,000, then 10,000, then 100,000, all the way up to 200,000 in 2019. And how unusual is this, Adam? Do the other tech companies have features like this? Not in the same way, no. In fact, as they were expanding the number of people who could participate in these kind of groups, others, like WhatsApp, were going the other direction because of concerns that were being raised about the spread of misinformation or disinformation. And so you have Telegram really moving in a different direction from these other platforms. And it helps distinguish it and it helps it grow. And how much is it growing? How popular does Telegram actually get? So Telegram starts off with 100,000 users in 2013. And just three years later, it's grown to 100 million users. And today, Telegram has nearly a billion active users. And so just to give you some sense of context, it's the fourth most popular messaging app in the world behind WhatsApp, WeChat, the giant Chinese messaging service, and Facebook Messenger. That's just a wild number of people. It really is. And what's wilder to me is that over the years, as Telegram is exploding in popularity, the company itself stays essentially the same size. So Telegram has around 60 core employees. And it basically operates still like it's a small startup. There's no HR Department. There's a stitched together content moderation team. There's Durov at the top and some other core employees, and that's it. This is just so remarkable because when you think of big tech platforms, say like Meta, for example, you think of them employing tens of thousands of workers, not fewer than 100, like you have here with Telegram. Right. Absolutely. And it's really a reflection of what Telegram is. [MUSIC PLAYING] They don't have a large team of content moderators because they don't need one. They don't believe in it. They're not interested in limiting what their users say or do. Telegram bills itself as anti-establishment. It's anti-authoritarian. It's free speech. It's what Durov believes in. And he's become the sort of free speech folk hero in the tech community. And that ethos is what attracts hundreds of millions of users to Telegram, but it's also what lays the groundwork for Durov's problems, because some of those users who are flocking to Telegram are doing so for some pretty nefarious reasons. We'll be right back. So Adam, you said that Telegram's ethos created this kind of free-for-all, which ultimately led to Durov's problems. And that is, of course, what you and our colleagues have been investigating. So what is actually happening on this platform? Yeah, so by the time Pavel Durov was arrested getting off his jet in Paris, myself and some other colleagues, we were months into an investigation into Telegram. So using software, we were able to analyze 3.2 million messages on Telegram across 16,000 channels. And what we soon began to find as we looked deeper is the volume of criminal and extremist behavior that is happening on there was really quite shocking. And, Adam, when you started to look into these channels, what exactly did you find? One of the main things that we found was the volume of sort of white supremacy and white supremacist groups that are operating in Europe and the United States, especially. And they use Telegram for communication, for recruitment, for sharing their ideology. And in some respects, you see that these groups are also a place for staging violence. There's a group called Teregram that's been designated a terror organization in the UK, where they are plotting violence and sharing information about weapons and other ways to stage potential attacks. And it's really provided a haven for them to grow. So, Adam, give me an example of a group that really has used all of these features of Telegram, as you're saying. One of the clearest examples that we found is Hamas. [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] And so when Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, it announced the assault on Telegram. [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Within a few hours of moving in, they began posting all sorts of videos of the carnage. And you've got over a three-day stretch where they've posted something nearly 700 times. And they get over 54 million views, according to the analysis that we did. Some of the videos of the hostages were shared over Telegram before some of these people were killed. Telegram was this key, key piece of the Hamas propaganda strategy. And so it provides this massive megaphone for Hamas to share its messaging. What else did you find in your investigation? One of the most surprising things we were able to find is the extent to which Telegram acts as a black market. [MUSIC PLAYING] It is a clearinghouse for all sorts of illegal goods. You can buy handguns. You can buy machine guns. You can buy cocaine. You can buy MDMA. You can buy fraudulent ATM cards. The list goes on, and on, and on. So in other words, it really simplifies the process of buying or selling something illegal online. You don't have to be a specialist. You can just be anyone with the Telegram app. Exactly. And it's happening brazenly. They post videos of people opening their deliveries, which they will call touchdowns. And it has all sorts of slang that's used within a lot of these groups for buying drugs or guns. They act like salesmen, like, oh, I can make a good deal for you. I can deliver to these 30 countries. They talk about how to make payments using cryptocurrencies. They'll have videos of packages of pharmaceuticals that they have for sale. So it's this kind of open air drug and gun market within an iPhone app. And so you have to sort of step back and think like, oh, well, bad stuff is on the internet. Who cares? But usually, for this kind of stuff, you have to use the dark web, which requires a special kind of browser. And it has all sorts of hoops that you might have to jump through. With Telegram, it's a simple to use app right there on your phone, in your pocket. And people have called it the dark web in your pocket. So, Adam, this is pretty remarkable. Just how much illegal activity is happening on Telegram, kind of in plain sight? What can governments and law enforcement do to combat this kind of activity? How are they dealing with this? The governments haven't been able to do much, in large part because Durov and Telegram have refused to cooperate. We spoke to law enforcement and government agencies around the world who expressed extreme frustration in trying to get any sort of cooperation from Telegram. The NYPD told us that they don't even bother to send requests anymore because they don't get any help from Telegram. They've stopped even trying. Yeah, and German prosecutors told us the same thing. I spoke to somebody who just conducted a bunch of research in Argentina. And there, they have a prosecutor unit dedicated to child sexual abuse material. They can't get any help from Telegram. And so it's this black box, where Telegram does not cooperate with law enforcement. And I think this is a really important point that is what has gotten Telegram into perhaps the most trouble is that companies like Google, Meta, TikTok, they have teams of people who are responsible for responding to requests from law enforcement and thousands of moderators who will take down all sorts of material. Telegram doesn't have that. And so therefore, you end up in a situation where there is a lot of illegal activity happening on the platform and nothing is being done about it. And if you're a police department, if you're a prosecutor, that is immensely frustrating and infuriating. So this s brings us, Adam, to Pavel Durov's arrest in France and really helps me understand what the French government might have been trying to tell him. Bring me back to that case and tell me where it stands now. So Pavel Durov is in France now awaiting trial. At least one of the charges carries an up to 10-year prison sentence. And the first word of the press release that the French prosecutors put out was complicity. And they're essentially saying that Pavel Durov is complicit in all these crimes that include child pornography, drug trafficking, gang fraud, criminal conspiracy. The list goes on. And so they're saying that because he and his company were so uncooperative in trying to deal with these different crimes, they say that there was an almost total lack of response from Telegram to legal requests. And they finally had enough. And so when his plane landed in France, they grabbed him. And this is pretty unusual? When it comes to social media, we haven't really seen a big tech CEO held criminally responsible for something like this. Absolutely. His arrest is a big move by the French authorities. There's little precedent for something like this. They're essentially holding him, as the CEO of the company, responsible for the behavior of others, basically saying he's an accomplice. He's complicit. And this is not usually how governments have handled these sorts of crimes on social media. And what has Durov said in response? What's his defense? So his main defense seems to be, I'm not responsible for what users do on my platform. He didn't sell the drugs. He didn't sell the guns. He's also said that Telegram is a victim of its success. It grew too fast. And he expressed some contrition, saying they were going to put certain new policies in place to respond more quickly to certain law enforcement requests and to moderate more content. But beyond that, this arrest really cuts to the core of what Telegram stands for. It's like what they've been trying to achieve. For Durov, the whole point of Telegram is to create a platform that's free from government interference. It's not going to submit to government requests. That it stands with its users, not with governments. And in places like Russia and Iran, Telegram has been seen as a force for good. And that makes sense if you're a guy who grew up in Russia, where the government calls anyone it disagrees with a criminal or a terrorist. But in a lot of the rest of the world, including France, people live by laws, not by the whims of an authoritarian leader like Putin. And if they break those laws, the government comes after them, as it should. Right. Durov would have us believe that this situation is incredibly black and white, that in order to have a free space where anyone can openly express themselves, you have to have minimal moderation. It's like censorship or no. And he's arguing that the trade-off is worth it, that it's better to have Hamas broadcasting and understanding their point of view than to have a Russian police state. But the thing is, it's not totally clear that the situation is this black and white. [MUSIC PLAYING] Most of the tech sector doesn't work this way. Other social media sites like Facebook or YouTube, which are by no means perfect, they have fairly robust policies and teams in place trying to keep the worst activity off their platforms. And they do a fairly good job of cultivating a marketplace for ideas. But like you said, that isn't how Durov sees the world. He has a very black and white view. And there's a really good chance that he's going to be held accountable for the consequences of holding on to those ideals so tightly. Adam, thank you. Thank you. We'll be right back. Here's what else you should know today. Over the weekend, a devastating Israeli airstrike on the Lebanese militant group, Hezbollah, in Central Beirut on Friday killed at least 37, including two commanders. The attack leveled two apartment buildings and plunged Lebanon into further chaos days after pagers and walkie talkies belonging to Hezbollah members exploded en masse. The attacks appeared to mark a stark shift in the calculations that have long governed the decades-old conflict between Israel and Lebanon's most powerful militant group. Until last week, Israel had refrained from launching the kind of attacks that its leaders had feared could provoke retaliatory strikes by Hezbollah. But over the past few days, Israel has crossed what had unofficially been considered red lines. \"The Times\" reports that Israel's moves seem to indicate that the country's leaders have decided they can no longer live with the threat of Hezbollah on their northern border. And the Georgia State election board voted on Friday to force counties to hand-count all ballots cast on election day, a move that critics say could significantly delay the reporting of results in the battleground state and inject chaos into the post-election period. The new rule, which passed on a three-to-two vote, runs counter to extensive legal advice from election officials and law enforcement officials in the state. The new rule is the latest in a stream of right wing election policies passed by the state election board over the past few months. Today's episode was produced by Luke Vander Ploeg and Will Reid, with help from Jessica Cheung and Carlos Prieto. It was edited by Brendan Klinkenberg, contains original music by Marion Lozano, Rowan Niemisto, and Diane Wong, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Sabrina Tavernise. 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e1jsehar0" itemProp="name">Luke Vander Ploeg</a> and <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/by/will-reid" class="last-byline css-ojhyzr e1jsehar0" itemProp="name">Will Reid</a></p><p class="css-1xuzukf e1jsehar1"><span class="byline-prefix">With </span><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/by/jessica-cheung" class="css-ojhyzr e1jsehar0" itemProp="name">Jessica Cheung</a> and <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/by/carlos-prieto" class="last-byline css-ojhyzr e1jsehar0" itemProp="name">Carlos Prieto</a></p><p class="css-1xuzukf e1jsehar1"><span class="byline-prefix">Edited by </span><span class="css-1baulvz last-byline" itemProp="name">Brendan Klinkenberg</span></p><p class="css-1xuzukf e1jsehar1"><span class="byline-prefix">Original music by </span><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/by/marion-lozano" class="css-m3qogn e1jsehar0" itemProp="name">Marion Lozano</a><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/by/rowan-niemisto" class="css-ojhyzr e1jsehar0" itemProp="name">Rowan Niemisto</a> and <a 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target="_blank">Spotify</a></strong><strong class="css-8qgvsz ebyp5n10"> | </strong><strong class="css-8qgvsz ebyp5n10"><a class="css-yywogo" href="https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/65957f22-45da-431f-8090-83fae75e505a/the-daily?ref=dm_sh_usreOEMqWWWJPnjisTHv1U4QB" title="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Amazon Music</a></strong><strong class="css-8qgvsz ebyp5n10"> | </strong><strong class="css-8qgvsz ebyp5n10"><a class="css-yywogo" href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdMrbgYfVl-s16D_iT2BJCJ90pWtTO1A4" title="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">YouTube</a></strong><strong class="css-8qgvsz ebyp5n10"> | </strong><strong class="css-8qgvsz ebyp5n10"><a class="css-yywogo" href="https://www.iheart.com/podcast/326-the-daily-28076606/" title="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">iHeartRadio</a></strong></span></h3><hr class="css-7ad88g e1mu4ftr0"/><p class="css-at9mc1 evys1bk0">A Times investigation has found that Telegram, one of the world’s biggest messaging apps, with nearly a billion users, is also a giant black market and gathering place for the likes of terrorists and white supremacists.</p><p class="css-at9mc1 evys1bk0">Adam Satariano, a technology reporter for The Times, discusses the story of Telegram and the arrest of its founder, Pavel Durov.</p><hr class="css-7ad88g e1mu4ftr0"/></div><aside class="css-ew4tgv" aria-label="companion column"></aside></div><div data-testid="Dropzone-1"></div><div class="css-s99gbd StoryBodyCompanionColumn" data-testid="companionColumn-1"><div class="css-53u6y8"><h3 class="css-15h6bi9 e1gnsphs0" id="link-6db2a945"><span><strong class="css-8qgvsz ebyp5n10">On today’s episode</strong></span></h3></div><aside class="css-ew4tgv" aria-label="companion column"></aside></div><div data-testid="UnstructuredBlock-3"><div><div class="css-7t70i5"><div class="css-17pke92"><div class="css-1w4ly0e"><div class="css-ygtapu"><img alt="" src="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/09/22/reader-center/author-adam-satariano/author-adam-satariano-square320-v3.png"/></div></div><div class="css-y7cws2"><p class="css-1jo4olz evys1bk0"><strong class="css-8qgvsz ebyp5n10"><a class="css-yywogo" href="https://www.nytimes.com/by/adam-satariano">Adam Satariano</a></strong>, a technology correspondent for The New York Times.</p></div></div></div></div></div><div data-testid="ImageBlock-4"><div data-testid="imageblock-wrapper"><figure class="img-sz-medium css-d754w4 e1g7ppur0" aria-label="media" role="group"><div class="css-1xdhyk6 erfvjey0" data-testid="photoviewer-children-figure"><span class="css-1ly73wi e1tej78p0">Image</span><picture><source media="(max-width: 599px) and (min-device-pixel-ratio: 3),(max-width: 599px) and (min-resolution: 3dppx),(max-width: 599px) and (min-resolution: 288dpi)" srcSet="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/09/19/multimedia/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw-mobileMasterAt3x.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale&width=1800"/><source media="(max-width: 599px) and (min-device-pixel-ratio: 2),(max-width: 599px) and (min-resolution: 2dppx),(max-width: 599px) and (min-resolution: 192dpi)" srcSet="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/09/19/multimedia/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw-mobileMasterAt3x.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale&width=1200"/><source media="(max-width: 599px) and (min-device-pixel-ratio: 1),(max-width: 599px) and (min-resolution: 1dppx),(max-width: 599px) and (min-resolution: 96dpi)" srcSet="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/09/19/multimedia/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw-mobileMasterAt3x.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale&width=600"/><img alt="Telegram's logo, a blue circle with a white paper plane on the center." class="css-r3fift" src="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/09/19/multimedia/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale" srcSet="https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/09/19/multimedia/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp 600w,https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/09/19/multimedia/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw-jumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp 1024w,https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/09/19/multimedia/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw/19DAILY-telegram-pmfw-superJumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp 2048w" sizes="((min-width: 600px) and (max-width: 1004px)) 84vw, (min-width: 1005px) 60vw, 100vw" uri="nyt://image/b2aff716-0436-5cba-8627-33051a00101d" decoding="async" width="600" height="400"/></picture></div><figcaption data-testid="photoviewer-children-caption" class="css-gbc9ki ewdxa0s0"><span class="css-jevhma e13ogyst0">The New York Times investigation analyzed more than 3.2 million Telegram messages from over 16,000 channels.</span><span class="css-14fe1uy e1z0qqy90"><span class="css-1ly73wi e1tej78p0">Credit...</span><span><span aria-hidden="false">Kirill Kudryavtsev/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images</span></span></span></figcaption></figure></div></div><div class="css-s99gbd StoryBodyCompanionColumn" data-testid="companionColumn-2"><div class="css-53u6y8"><h3 class="css-15h6bi9 e1gnsphs0" id="link-3ddd12c4"><span><strong class="css-8qgvsz ebyp5n10">Background reading</strong></span></h3><ul class="css-1le37cb ez3869y0"><li class="css-1i3ul0c eoqvrfo0"><p class="css-1il0jfh evys1bk0">How Telegram became <a class="css-yywogo" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/07/technology/telegram-crime-terrorism.html" title="">a playground for criminals, extremists and terrorists</a>.</p></li><li class="css-1i3ul0c eoqvrfo0"><p class="css-1il0jfh evys1bk0">The <a class="css-yywogo" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/29/technology/telegram-encryption-pavel-durov.html" title="">criminal charges against Pavel Durov</a> raised concerns in Silicon Valley about encryption and Telegram’s approach to privacy and security.</p></li></ul><p class="css-798hid etfikam0"><strong class="css-8qgvsz ebyp5n10">There are a lot of ways to listen to The Daily. </strong><a class="css-yywogo" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/16/podcasts/the-daily/how-do-i-listen-to-the-daily.html" title="">Here’s how.</a></p><p class="css-798hid etfikam0"><em class="css-2fg4z9 e1gzwzxm0">We aim to make transcripts available the next workday after an episode’s publication. You can find them at the top of the page.</em></p></div><aside class="css-ew4tgv" aria-label="companion column"></aside></div><div data-testid="RelatedLinksBlock-6"><div data-testid="lazy-loader"></div></div><div class="css-s99gbd StoryBodyCompanionColumn" data-testid="companionColumn-3"><div class="css-53u6y8"><hr class="css-7ad88g e1mu4ftr0"/><p class="css-798hid etfikam0">The Daily is made by Rachel Quester, Lynsea Garrison, Clare Toeniskoetter, Paige Cowett, Michael Simon Johnson, Brad Fisher, Chris Wood, Jessica Cheung, Stella Tan, Alexandra Leigh Young, Lisa Chow, Eric Krupke, Marc Georges, Luke Vander Ploeg, M.J. Davis Lin, Dan Powell, Sydney Harper, Michael Benoist, Liz O. Baylen, Asthaa Chaturvedi, Rachelle Bonja, Diana Nguyen, Marion Lozano, Corey Schreppel, Rob Szypko, Elisheba Ittoop, Mooj Zadie, Patricia Willens, Rowan Niemisto, Jody Becker, Rikki Novetsky, Nina Feldman, Will Reid, Carlos Prieto, Ben Calhoun, Susan Lee, Lexie Diao, Mary Wilson, Alex Stern, Sophia Lanman, Shannon Lin, Diane Wong, Devon Taylor, Alyssa Moxley, Olivia Natt, Daniel Ramirez and Brendan Klinkenberg.</p><p class="css-798hid etfikam0">Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Paula Szuchman, Lisa Tobin, Larissa Anderson, Julia Simon, Sofia Milan, Mahima Chablani, Elizabeth Davis-Moorer, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddy Masiello, Isabella Anderson, Nina Lassam and Nick Pitman.</p></div><aside class="css-ew4tgv" aria-label="companion column"></aside></div></section><div class="bottom-of-article"><div class="css-1i6tsou"><div class="css-h77nca eqi4ubu0"><div class="css-kzd6pg"><p>Adam Satariano is a technology correspondent for The Times, based in London.<span class=css-kzd6pg> <a class="authorPageLinkClass overrideLinkStyles" href=https://www.nytimes.com/by/adam-satariano>More about Adam Satariano</a></span></p></div></div></div><div class="css-b9twaf e9ne27s0">See more on: <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/topic/telegram-llc">Telegram LLC</a>, <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/topic/pavel-durov">Pavel Durov</a></div><div role="toolbar" data-testid="share-tools" aria-label="Social Media Share buttons, Save button, and Comments Panel with 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is how the news should sound.","title":"The Daily"},"promotionalImage":null,"promotionalMedia":null,"sourceId":"100000009709312","subscribeUrls":[{"__typename":"AudioSubscribeUrl","platform":"ANDROID","url":"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.google.com\u002Fpodcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYXJ0MTkuY29tL3RoZS1kYWlseQ%3D%3D"}],"summary":"Drug dealers, scammers and white nationalists openly conduct business on the platform, according to a Times analysis.","transcript":{"__typename":"AudioTranscript","transcriptFragment":[{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"","text":"This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1.33,"start":0.01}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"From \"The New York Times,\" I'm Sabrina Tavernise, and this is The Daily.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":5.355,"start":1.34}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"[MUSIC PLAYING]","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":8.528,"start":5.365}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"A \"Times\" investigation has found that one of the world's biggest messaging apps with nearly a billion users is also a giant black market and gathering place for terrorists and white supremacists.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":28.32,"start":14.23}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"Today, my colleague, Adam Satariano, on the extraordinary story of Telegram and how it's led to one of the first arrests of a social media CEO in history.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":41.6,"start":28.32}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"It's Monday.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":47.23,"start":45.68}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"September 23.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":48.29,"start":47.23}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"Adam, welcome back to the show.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":56.498,"start":54.99}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Thanks for having me.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":58.04,"start":56.498}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So, Adam, you and our colleagues just published a big investigation into what's going on inside this giant messaging app called Telegram.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":65.94,"start":58.05}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"And it really came at the perfect time because the founder of the platform was arrested in France just a few weeks ago.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":72.94,"start":65.94}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So tell us what happened.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":74.75,"start":72.94}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"So this was a fascinating case.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":76.79,"start":74.76}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"So this guy, Pavel Durov, a Russian tech billionaire, his private plane lands at an airport outside Paris.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":85.19,"start":76.79}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And he is immediately picked up by the French authorities and detained.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":90.3,"start":85.19}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And the French authorities at first are providing very little detail about what happened.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":96.27,"start":90.3}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"It happens over a weekend.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":98.01,"start":96.27}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"There's not much public statements being put out.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":100.44,"start":98.01}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"There's a few French media 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for what users of that service are now doing?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":147.37,"start":134.83}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So this is a huge platform.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":149.29,"start":147.38}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"A big chunk of the world uses it.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":151.29,"start":149.29}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"And its founder, Durov, is in trouble because of what's happening on it.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":155.5,"start":151.29}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So let's start with him, Durov.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":157.62,"start":155.5}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"Tell me about him.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":158.71,"start":157.62}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"He's a fascinating character.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":160.76,"start":158.72}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"He was born in the Soviet Union.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":164.17,"start":160.76}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"He moved to Italy when he was a child.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":167.83,"start":164.17}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"His father was an academic and was working there.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":171.58,"start":167.83}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And then after the fall of the Soviet Union, they moved back to St Petersburg.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":175.98,"start":171.58}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And he and his brother, who is a real engineering whiz, become fascinated with an IBM computer that they had brought back with them from Italy.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":184.98,"start":175.98}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And when Pavel is in university, he's shown Facebook for the first time, and he becomes fascinated by it.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":192.93,"start":184.99}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And he's like, I want to create my own.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":195.23,"start":192.93}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And so they start their own version of Facebook geared towards Russia, a company known as VK.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":201.048,"start":195.23}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"[RUSSIAN], as it's known in Russian.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":203.34,"start":201.048}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Yes.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":204.173,"start":203.35}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And it explodes in popularity.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":206.58,"start":204.173}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And Durov himself begins to develop a bit of a profile.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":211.436,"start":206.58}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"[MUSIC 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he's sort of a loose cannon.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":231.57,"start":228.11}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"He has this incident where he throws cash out the window of their offices in Saint Petersburg and it leads to a street fight down below.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":240.76,"start":231.57}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Another instance, he hit a police officer with a car when he's trying to evade a traffic stop because he had driven onto the sidewalk to avoid traffic.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":251.68,"start":240.77}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And so he has this kind of trollish element to him, but he's one who has a lot of money and, therefore, a lot of power and influence at the 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users.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":289.91,"start":278.225}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And it becomes a source of tension.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":292.89,"start":289.91}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And it's also a point where you start to see Durov's anti-authority streak come forward.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":298.59,"start":292.89}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"When the authorities were asking for information about some opposition politicians, he responded online by posting a picture of a hoodie-wearing dog.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":307.8,"start":298.59}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And he said, this is my official response to the intelligence services.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":311.34,"start":307.8}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So thumbing his nose at the Russian authorities, which, as we all know, can be a little dangerous.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":317.88,"start":311.35}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Exactly And it comes to a head over some Ukrainian activists that the Russian authorities want Durov to provide information about.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":327.77,"start":317.89}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And it becomes this moment where he is forced to decide whether or not he's going to cooperate with Russian authorities or if he is going to have to hand it over.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":340.2,"start":327.77}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"So he is essentially forced to sell the company.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":343.2,"start":340.2}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"He chooses that.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":344.37,"start":343.2}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So Durov is essentially forced to abandon his own darling here, his company that he built from scratch.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":351.12,"start":344.38}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"And he chooses to do that rather than to see it become something that he doesn't agree with.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":356.5,"start":351.12}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Exactly.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":357.5,"start":356.5}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"That must have been pretty painful.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":359.06,"start":357.51}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Yeah, it was.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":360.32,"start":359.07}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"^ARCHIVED RECORDING (PAVEL DUROV)^","text":"Obviously, my first company was my baby.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":362.97,"start":360.33}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"^ARCHIVED RECORDING (PAVEL DUROV)^","text":"I created it myself.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":364.02,"start":362.97}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"^ARCHIVED RECORDING (PAVEL DUROV)^","text":"There was a lot of creativity, time, and effort invested in that platform.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":369.56,"start":364.02}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Durov doesn't really give many interviews, but a few months ago, he had one with Tucker Carlson and they touched on this moment.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":376.71,"start":369.57}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"^ARCHIVED RECORDING (PAVEL DUROV)^","text":"But at the same time, I understood that I would rather be free.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":382.17,"start":376.72}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"^ARCHIVED RECORDING (PAVEL DUROV)^","text":"I wouldn't want to take orders from anyone.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":385.06,"start":382.17}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"^ARCHIVED RECORDING (PAVEL DUROV)^","text":"And I left behind probably a comfortable life.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":389.34,"start":385.06}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And he makes it really clear that this was a dilemma, but the choice was clear.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":394.08,"start":389.35}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"For him, he knew what he had to do.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":395.94,"start":394.08}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"^ARCHIVED RECORDING (PAVEL DUROV)^","text":"For me, everything in my life was about becoming free.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":399.69,"start":395.94}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"^ARCHIVED RECORDING (TUCKER CARLSON)^","text":"Yes.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":401.482,"start":399.7}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"^ARCHIVED RECORDING (PAVEL DUROV)^","text":"And to the extent it is possible, my mission in life was to allow other people to also become free, in a sense.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":409.62,"start":401.482}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"^ARCHIVED RECORDING (PAVEL DUROV)^","text":"And using the platforms that we create or I created, my hope was that they could express their freedoms.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":419.19,"start":409.62}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"For Durov, this moment ends up being a really important inflection point in his life because, in the middle of all this, getting all this pressure from Russian authorities, in losing VK, he starts to build a communications platform that he hopes will sit outside any government","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":435.66,"start":419.2}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"and that they won't be able to crack down on.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":437.92,"start":435.66}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And that tool is Telegram.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":439.763,"start":437.92}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So tell me about the birth of Telegram.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":442.18,"start":439.763}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"How does it get started?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":443.29,"start":442.18}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Durov starts Telegram in 2013.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":446.86,"start":443.3}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And it's the next year, in January 2014, that they announced that he's lost VK.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":453.93,"start":446.86}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And he decides to leave Russia and look for a new place to push ahead with this new project.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":459.52,"start":453.93}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And so he and a handful of engineers, they bounce around to different places.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":464.1,"start":459.52}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"They become something like digital nomads.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":465.85,"start":464.1}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"They're in Berlin, they're in London, they're in San Francisco.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":468.49,"start":465.85}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"They even push out a software update from a boat in Southeast Asia.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":472.412,"start":468.49}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"Wow.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":473.37,"start":472.412}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"They eventually land in Dubai, where Durov says that the government has given assurances that they won't meddle in what they're doing.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":480.43,"start":473.38}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And he feels it's a place can be a long-term home for Telegram.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":483.497,"start":480.43}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"What does Telegram look like in those early days?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":486.33,"start":483.497}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"So when Telegram first comes out, it's basically a simple messaging app like iMessage or WhatsApp.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":492.31,"start":486.34}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"You can text your friends.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":493.59,"start":492.31}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"You can start small group chats.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":495.61,"start":493.59}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"But over the next few years, Telegram becomes much, much more.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":500.97,"start":495.61}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"In 2015, they added something called channels, and these are basically one-way broadcasting features.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":508.01,"start":500.97}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"[MUSIC PLAYING]","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":511.38,"start":508.02}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Any user can start a channel.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":513.46,"start":511.39}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"You send a message, and anyone who subscribes will receive it.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":517.47,"start":513.46}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And governments, public figures, and others begin to flock there.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":521.44,"start":517.47}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is there.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":524.249,"start":521.44}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"You have government agencies that post updates there.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":528.34,"start":524.249}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"But it's also all sorts of random, quirky stuff too.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":531.67,"start":528.34}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"You can get reality TV news from Brazil there.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":535.08,"start":531.67}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"You can get math lessons in India there, prepare for Civil Service exams.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":540.13,"start":535.08}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"It really runs the gamut.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":542.46,"start":540.13}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So Telegram is already beginning to sort of transition here from a pure messaging app to some kind of social media platform.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":549.39,"start":542.47}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Exactly.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":550.39,"start":549.39}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And they continue down this path.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":552.48,"start":550.39}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"In 2015, they also introduce something called supergroups.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":556.33,"start":552.48}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And it's like a typical group chat, but a lot more people.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":561.55,"start":556.33}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And so these supergroups start out with 1,000 people user cap.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":566.7,"start":561.55}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"But over the course of the next few years, Telegram increases the cap exponentially.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":571.7,"start":566.7}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"It's 5,000, then 10,000, then 100,000, all the way up to 200,000 in 2019.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":583.54,"start":571.7}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"And how unusual is this, Adam?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":586.04,"start":583.55}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"Do the other tech companies have features like this?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":589.263,"start":586.04}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Not in the same way, no.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":590.93,"start":589.263}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"In fact, as they were expanding the number of people who could participate in these kind of groups, others, like WhatsApp, were going the other direction because of concerns that were being raised about the spread of misinformation or disinformation.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":606.05,"start":590.93}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And so you have Telegram really moving in a different direction from these other platforms.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":612.13,"start":606.05}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And it helps distinguish it and it helps it grow.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":614.903,"start":612.13}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"And how much is it growing?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":616.82,"start":614.903}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"How popular does Telegram actually get?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":619.25,"start":616.82}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"So Telegram starts off with 100,000 users in 2013.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":623.99,"start":619.26}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And just three years later, it's grown to 100 million users.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":627.98,"start":623.99}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And today, Telegram has nearly a billion active users.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":631.91,"start":627.98}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And so just to give you some sense of context, it's the fourth most popular messaging app in the world behind WhatsApp, WeChat, the giant Chinese messaging service, and Facebook Messenger.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":643.098,"start":631.91}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"That's just a wild number of people.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":645.39,"start":643.098}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"It really is.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":646.598,"start":645.4}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And what's wilder to me is that over the years, as Telegram is exploding in popularity, the company itself stays essentially the same size.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":657.48,"start":646.598}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"So Telegram has around 60 core employees.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":661.19,"start":657.48}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And it basically operates still like it's a small startup.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":665.21,"start":661.19}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"There's no HR Department.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":666.93,"start":665.21}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"There's a stitched together content moderation team.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":670.17,"start":666.93}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"There's Durov at the top and some other core employees, and that's it.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":675.39,"start":670.17}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"This is just so remarkable because when you think of big tech platforms, say like Meta, for example, you think of them employing tens of thousands of workers, not fewer than 100, like you have here with Telegram.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":687.563,"start":675.4}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Right.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":688.48,"start":687.563}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Absolutely.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":689.58,"start":688.48}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And it's really a reflection of what Telegram is.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":692.53,"start":689.58}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"[MUSIC PLAYING]","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":695.658,"start":692.54}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"They don't have a large team of content moderators because they don't need one.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":700.368,"start":696.55}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"They don't believe in it.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":701.41,"start":700.368}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"They're not interested in limiting what their users say or do.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":704.98,"start":701.41}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Telegram bills itself as anti-establishment.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":707.56,"start":704.98}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"It's anti-authoritarian.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":709.03,"start":707.56}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"It's free speech.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":709.96,"start":709.03}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"It's what Durov believes in.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":711.73,"start":709.96}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And he's become the sort of free speech folk hero in the tech community.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":715.496,"start":711.73}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And that ethos is what attracts hundreds of millions of users to Telegram, but it's also what lays the groundwork for Durov's problems, because some of those users who are flocking to Telegram are doing so for some pretty nefarious reasons.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":732.13,"start":718.97}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"We'll be right back.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":738.06,"start":736.435}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So Adam, you said that Telegram's ethos created this kind of free-for-all, which ultimately led to Durov's problems.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":758.83,"start":751.63}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"And that is, of course, what you and our colleagues have been investigating.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":762.82,"start":758.83}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So what is actually happening on this platform?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":765.61,"start":762.82}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Yeah, so by the time Pavel Durov was arrested getting off his jet in Paris, myself and some other colleagues, we were months into an investigation into Telegram.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":777.97,"start":765.62}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"So using software, we were able to analyze 3.2 million messages on Telegram across 16,000 channels.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":786.9,"start":777.97}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And what we soon began to find as we looked deeper is the volume of criminal and extremist behavior that is happening on there was really quite shocking.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":798.94,"start":786.9}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"And, Adam, when you started to look into these channels, what exactly did you find?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":804.71,"start":798.95}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"One of the main things that we found was the volume of sort of white supremacy and white supremacist groups that are operating in Europe and the United States, especially.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":814.82,"start":804.72}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And they use Telegram for communication, for recruitment, for sharing their ideology.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":824.42,"start":814.82}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And in some respects, you see that these groups are also a place for staging violence.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":830.82,"start":824.42}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"There's a group called Teregram that's been designated a terror organization in the UK, where they are plotting violence and sharing information about weapons and other ways to stage potential attacks.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":844.63,"start":830.82}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And it's really provided a haven for them to grow.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":848.77,"start":844.63}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So, Adam, give me an example of a group that really has used all of these features of Telegram, as you're saying.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":854.337,"start":848.78}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"One of the clearest examples that we found is Hamas.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":857.17,"start":854.337}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"^SPEAKER^","text":"[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":859.15,"start":857.18}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"And so when Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, it announced the assault on Telegram.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":864.57,"start":859.16}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"CROWD","text":"[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":867.872,"start":864.58}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Within a few hours of moving in, they began posting all sorts of videos of the carnage.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":876.27,"start":870.32}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And you've got over a three-day stretch where they've posted something nearly 700 times.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":887.2,"start":879.28}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And they get over 54 million views, according to the analysis that we did.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":893.25,"start":887.2}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Some of the videos of the hostages were shared over Telegram before some of these people were killed.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":901.7,"start":893.25}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Telegram was this key, key piece of the Hamas propaganda strategy.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":907.34,"start":901.7}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And so it provides this massive megaphone for Hamas to share its messaging.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":915.3,"start":907.34}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"What else did you find in your investigation?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":918.22,"start":915.31}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"One of the most surprising things we were able to find is the extent to which Telegram acts as a black market.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":926.415,"start":918.23}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"[MUSIC PLAYING]","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":929.78,"start":926.425}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"It is a clearinghouse for all sorts of illegal goods.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":936.05,"start":930.77}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"You can buy handguns.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":937.9,"start":936.05}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"You can buy machine guns.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":939.557,"start":937.9}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"You can buy cocaine.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":940.39,"start":939.557}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"You can buy MDMA.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":942.43,"start":940.39}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"You can buy fraudulent ATM cards.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":946.19,"start":942.43}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"The list goes on, and on, and on.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":949.49,"start":946.19}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So in other words, it really simplifies the process of buying or selling something illegal online.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":955.153,"start":949.5}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"You don't have to be a specialist.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":956.57,"start":955.153}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"You can just be anyone with the Telegram app.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":958.51,"start":956.57}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Exactly.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":959.51,"start":958.51}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And it's happening brazenly.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":961.04,"start":959.51}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"They post videos of people opening their deliveries, which they will call touchdowns.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":966.56,"start":961.04}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And it has all sorts of slang that's used within a lot of these groups for buying drugs or guns.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":972.93,"start":966.56}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"They act like salesmen, like, oh, I can make a good deal for you.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":976.94,"start":972.93}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"I can deliver to these 30 countries.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":980.41,"start":976.94}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"They talk about how to make payments using cryptocurrencies.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":984.49,"start":980.41}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"They'll have videos of packages of pharmaceuticals that they have for sale.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":990.31,"start":984.49}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"So it's this kind of open air drug and gun market within an iPhone app.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":996.78,"start":990.31}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And so you have to sort of step back and think like, oh, well, bad stuff is on the internet.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1005.68,"start":1001.09}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Who cares?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1006.22,"start":1005.68}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"But usually, for this kind of stuff, you have to use the dark web, which requires a special kind of browser.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1014.02,"start":1006.22}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And it has all sorts of hoops that you might have to jump through.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1017.28,"start":1014.02}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"With Telegram, it's a simple to use app right there on your phone, in your pocket.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1023.2,"start":1017.28}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And people have called it the dark web in your pocket.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1025.99,"start":1023.2}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So, Adam, this is pretty remarkable.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1028.48,"start":1026}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"Just how much illegal activity is happening on Telegram, kind of in plain sight?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1035.64,"start":1028.48}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"What can governments and law enforcement do to combat this kind of activity?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1041.829,"start":1035.64}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"How are they dealing with this?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1043.41,"start":1041.829}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"The governments haven't been able to do much, in large part because Durov and Telegram have refused to cooperate.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1050.35,"start":1043.42}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"We spoke to law enforcement and government agencies around the world who expressed extreme frustration in trying to get any sort of cooperation from Telegram.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1061.63,"start":1050.35}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"The NYPD told us that they don't even bother to send requests anymore because they don't get any help from Telegram.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1069.092,"start":1061.63}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"They've stopped even trying.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1071.05,"start":1069.092}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Yeah, and German prosecutors told us the same thing.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1075.1,"start":1071.06}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"I spoke to somebody who just conducted a bunch of research in Argentina.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1079.94,"start":1075.1}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And there, they have a prosecutor unit dedicated to child sexual abuse material.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1085.7,"start":1079.94}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"They can't get any help from Telegram.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1087.89,"start":1085.7}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And so it's this black box, where Telegram does not cooperate with law enforcement.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1094.28,"start":1087.89}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And I think this is a really important point that is what has gotten Telegram into perhaps the most trouble is that companies like Google, Meta, TikTok, they have teams of people who are responsible for responding to requests from law enforcement","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1111.79,"start":1094.29}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"and thousands of moderators who will take down all sorts of material.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1116.74,"start":1111.79}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Telegram doesn't have that.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1118.76,"start":1116.74}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And so therefore, you end up in a situation where there is a lot of illegal activity happening on the platform and nothing is being done about it.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1129.47,"start":1118.76}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And if you're a police department, if you're a prosecutor, that is immensely frustrating and infuriating.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1137.27,"start":1129.47}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"So this s brings us, Adam, to Pavel Durov's arrest in France and really helps me understand what the French government might have been trying to tell him.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1148.01,"start":1137.28}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"Bring me back to that case and tell me where it stands now.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1152.32,"start":1148.01}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"So Pavel Durov is in France now awaiting trial.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1156.02,"start":1152.33}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"At least one of the charges carries an up to 10-year prison sentence.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1161.29,"start":1156.02}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And the first word of the press release that the French prosecutors put out was complicity.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1169.04,"start":1161.29}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And they're essentially saying that Pavel Durov is complicit in all these crimes that include child pornography, drug trafficking, gang fraud, criminal conspiracy.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1182.6,"start":1169.04}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"The list goes on.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1183.98,"start":1182.6}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And so they're saying that because he and his company were so uncooperative in trying to deal with these different crimes, they say that there was an almost total lack of response from Telegram to legal requests.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1198.07,"start":1183.99}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And they finally had enough.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1199.73,"start":1198.07}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And so when his plane landed in France, they grabbed him.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1203.18,"start":1199.73}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"And this is pretty unusual?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1205.46,"start":1203.19}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"When it comes to social media, we haven't really seen a big tech CEO held criminally responsible for something like this.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1212.745,"start":1205.46}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Absolutely.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1213.87,"start":1212.745}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"His arrest is a big move by the French authorities.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1216.93,"start":1213.87}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"There's little precedent for something like this.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1219.68,"start":1216.93}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"They're essentially holding him, as the CEO of the company, responsible for the behavior of others, basically saying he's an accomplice.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1228.81,"start":1219.68}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"He's complicit.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1230.01,"start":1228.81}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And this is not usually how governments have handled these sorts of crimes on social media.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1236.57,"start":1230.01}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"And what has Durov said in response?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1239.28,"start":1236.58}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"What's his defense?","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1240.47,"start":1239.28}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"So his main defense seems to be, I'm not responsible for what users do on my platform.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1247.11,"start":1240.48}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"He didn't sell the drugs.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1248.43,"start":1247.11}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"He didn't sell the guns.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1249.84,"start":1248.43}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"He's also said that Telegram is a victim of its success.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1253.74,"start":1249.84}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"It grew too fast.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1254.97,"start":1253.74}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And he expressed some contrition, saying they were going to put certain new policies in place to respond more quickly to certain law enforcement requests and to moderate more content.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1265.65,"start":1254.97}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"But beyond that, this arrest really cuts to the core of what Telegram stands for.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1270.81,"start":1265.66}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"It's like what they've been trying to achieve.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1273.04,"start":1270.81}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"For Durov, the whole point of Telegram is to create a platform that's free from government interference.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1278.75,"start":1273.04}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"It's not going to submit to government requests.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1280.93,"start":1278.75}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"That it stands with its users, not with governments.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1283.67,"start":1280.93}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And in places like Russia and Iran, Telegram has been seen as a force for good.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1288.65,"start":1283.67}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"And that makes sense if you're a guy who grew up in Russia, where the government calls anyone it disagrees with a criminal or a terrorist.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1297.02,"start":1288.66}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"But in a lot of the rest of the world, including France, people live by laws, not by the whims of an authoritarian leader like Putin.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1305.15,"start":1297.02}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"And if they break those laws, the government comes after them, as it should.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1308.48,"start":1305.15}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Right.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1309.77,"start":1308.49}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Durov would have us believe that this situation is incredibly black and white, that in order to have a free space where anyone can openly express themselves, you have to have minimal moderation.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1321.47,"start":1309.77}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"It's like censorship or no.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1323.78,"start":1321.47}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And he's arguing that the trade-off is worth it, that it's better to have Hamas broadcasting and understanding their point of view than to have a Russian police state.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1334.07,"start":1323.78}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"But the thing is, it's not totally clear that the situation is this black and white.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1339.33,"start":1334.07}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"[MUSIC PLAYING]","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1341.51,"start":1339.34}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Most of the tech sector doesn't work this way.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1344.91,"start":1341.52}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Other social media sites like Facebook or YouTube, which are by no means perfect, they have fairly robust policies and teams in place trying to keep the worst activity off their platforms.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1356.91,"start":1344.91}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And they do a fairly good job of cultivating a marketplace for ideas.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1360.78,"start":1356.91}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"But like you said, that isn't how Durov sees the world.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1363.33,"start":1360.78}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"He has a very black and white view.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1365.48,"start":1363.33}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"And there's a really good chance that he's going to be held accountable for the consequences of holding on to those ideals so tightly.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1373.06,"start":1365.48}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"Adam, thank you.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1383.21,"start":1381.752}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"ADAM SATARIANO","text":"Thank you.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1384.293,"start":1383.22}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"We'll be right back.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1391.52,"start":1389.895}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"Here's what else you should know today.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1399.04,"start":1397.13}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"Over the weekend, a devastating Israeli airstrike on the Lebanese militant group, Hezbollah, in Central Beirut on Friday killed at least 37, including two commanders.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1410.62,"start":1399.04}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"The attack leveled two apartment buildings and plunged Lebanon into further chaos days after pagers and walkie talkies belonging to Hezbollah members exploded en masse.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1423.55,"start":1410.62}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"The attacks appeared to mark a stark shift in the calculations that have long governed the decades-old conflict between Israel and Lebanon's most powerful militant group.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1434.53,"start":1423.55}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"Until last week, Israel had refrained from launching the kind of attacks that its leaders had feared could provoke retaliatory strikes by Hezbollah.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1443.89,"start":1434.54}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"But over the past few days, Israel has crossed what had unofficially been considered red lines.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1450.59,"start":1443.89}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"\"The Times\" reports that Israel's moves seem to indicate that the country's leaders have decided they can no longer live with the threat of Hezbollah on their northern border.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1462.74,"start":1450.59}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"And the Georgia State election board voted on Friday to force counties to hand-count all ballots cast on election day, a move that critics say could significantly delay the reporting of results in the battleground state and inject chaos into the post-election period.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1482.42,"start":1462.75}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"The new rule, which passed on a three-to-two vote, runs counter to extensive legal advice from election officials and law enforcement officials in the state.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1492.93,"start":1482.42}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"The new rule is the latest in a stream of right wing election policies passed by the state election board over the past few months.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1501.1,"start":1492.93}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"Today's episode was produced by Luke Vander Ploeg and Will Reid, with help from Jessica Cheung and Carlos Prieto.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1512.09,"start":1504.39}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"It was edited by Brendan Klinkenberg, contains original music by Marion Lozano, Rowan Niemisto, and Diane Wong, and was engineered by Chris Wood.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1524.03,"start":1512.09}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1527.545,"start":1524.03}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"That's it for The Daily.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1535.99,"start":1534.28}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"I'm Sabrina Tavernise.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1537.73,"start":1535.99}},{"__typename":"AudioTranscriptFragment","speaker":"SABRINA TAVERNISE","text":"See you tomorrow.","timecode":{"__typename":"AudioTimecode","end":1539.73,"start":1537.73}}]},"uri":"nyt:\u002F\u002Faudio\u002F16c47027-c5d1-50dd-a8c6-f533fd9d9b71"}},"summary":{"__typename":"SummaryBlock","content":[{"__typename":"TextInline","text":"Drug dealers, scammers and white nationalists openly conduct business on the platform, according to a Times analysis."}],"textAlign":"LEFT"}},{"__typename":"BylineBlock","bylines":[{"__typename":"Byline","creators":[{"__typename":"Person","bioUrl":"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.nytimes.com\u002Fby\u002Fsabrina-tavernise","displayName":"Sabrina 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