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vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#How_to_collapse_template?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>How to collapse template?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-How_to_collapse_template?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Collapsible_groups" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Collapsible_groups"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>Collapsible groups</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Collapsible_groups-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Scope_of_the_template" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Scope_of_the_template"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Scope of the template</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">6 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Scope_of_the_template-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Division_between_"management"_and_"activities"_seems_arbitrary" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Division_between_"management"_and_"activities"_seems_arbitrary"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Division between "management" and "activities" seems arbitrary</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Division_between_"management"_and_"activities"_seems_arbitrary-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Suggest_remove_specific_renewable_energy_sources" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Suggest_remove_specific_renewable_energy_sources"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>Suggest remove specific renewable energy sources</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Suggest_remove_specific_renewable_energy_sources-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Adding_sustainable_governance" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Adding_sustainable_governance"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>Adding sustainable governance</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Adding_sustainable_governance-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Planetary_boundaries" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Planetary_boundaries"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>Planetary boundaries</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">5 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Planetary_boundaries-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Add_Planetary_boundaries_to_"Sustainability_disciplines_and_activities"'s_"Management"_subsection." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Add_Planetary_boundaries_to_"Sustainability_disciplines_and_activities"'s_"Management"_subsection."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>Add Planetary boundaries to "Sustainability disciplines and activities"'s "Management" subsection.</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul 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Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: <table style="width:100%"><tbody><tr><td><ul><li><b>Keep</b>, 5 October 2010, see <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2010_October_5#Template:Sustainability">discussion</a>.</li><li><b>Keep</b>, 7 October 2008, see <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2008_October_7#Template:Sustainability">discussion</a>.</li></ul></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1243927654">.mw-parser-output .banner-shell{border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:4px}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-header{text-align:center;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{padding:2px 4px;background:#fffaef;color:inherit;border:1px dotted gray}@media 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href="/wiki/File:Symbol_template_class_pink.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Template"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Symbol_template_class_pink.svg/35px-Symbol_template_class_pink.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="36" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Symbol_template_class_pink.svg/53px-Symbol_template_class_pink.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Symbol_template_class_pink.svg/70px-Symbol_template_class_pink.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span></td><td class="banner-shell-header" style="text-align:left;font-weight:normal">This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.<br/>It is of interest to the following <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject">WikiProjects</a>:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="banner-shell-inner outercollapse"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256394742">.mw-parser-output .wpb-header,.mw-parser-output .wpb-metadata,.mw-parser-output .wpb-iefix{display:none}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-name{text-align:right;padding:0.3em 1em 0.3em 0.3em;width:50%;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-assessment{text-align:left;width:50%;padding:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-combined{text-align:left;padding:0.3em 0.3em 0.3em 0;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-bubbles{border-radius:.5em;padding:0 .3em;margin-left:0.5em;white-space:nowrap;font-weight:normal;color:black}.mw-parser-output .wpb-nested-task-force{font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-icon{width:50px;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output 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.import-top{background-color:#FFBFFF}.mw-parser-output .import-high{background-color:#FFCCFF}.mw-parser-output .import-mid{background-color:#FFD9FF}.mw-parser-output .import-low{background-color:#FFE7FF}.mw-parser-output .import-bottom{background-color:#FFEBFF}.mw-parser-output .import-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .import-unknown{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .class-fa,.mw-parser-output .class-fl,.mw-parser-output .class-fm{background-color:#BED3FF}.mw-parser-output .class-a,.mw-parser-output .class-al{background-color:#C0FFFF}.mw-parser-output .class-ga{background-color:#C0FFC0}.mw-parser-output .class-b,.mw-parser-output .class-bl{background-color:#DFFFBF}.mw-parser-output .class-c,.mw-parser-output .class-cl{background-color:#FFFFBE}.mw-parser-output .class-start{background-color:#FFDBBF}.mw-parser-output .class-stub,.mw-parser-output .class-sl{background-color:#FFC0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-list{background-color:#D2C0FF}.mw-parser-output .class-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .class-category{background-color:#FFDB58}.mw-parser-output .class-disambig{background-color:#00FA9A}.mw-parser-output .class-draft{background-color:#E7B198}.mw-parser-output .class-file{background-color:#DDCCFF}.mw-parser-output .class-future{background-color:#B4BBFF}.mw-parser-output .class-portal{background-color:#DDB1BC}.mw-parser-output .class-project{background-color:#C0C090}.mw-parser-output .class-redirect{background-color:#C0C0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-sia{background-color:#E9DAFF}.mw-parser-output .class-user{background-color:#DDD06A}.mw-parser-output .class-template{background-color:#FBCEB1}.mw-parser-output .class-unassessed{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .conflict{border:0.2em solid red}.mw-parser-output .inactive-wikiproject .wpb-header-bubbles{color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg/25px-The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg/38px-The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg/50px-The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg 2x" data-file-width="3000" data-file-height="3002"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Environment" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Environment">Environment</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Environment/Sustainability_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Environment/Sustainability task force">Sustainability</a></span> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg/60px-The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg" decoding="async" width="60" height="60" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg/90px-The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg/120px-The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg 2x" data-file-width="3000" data-file-height="3002"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239009302">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Aegopodium_podagraria1_ies.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Aegopodium_podagraria1_ies.jpg/32px-Aegopodium_podagraria1_ies.jpg" decoding="async" width="32" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Aegopodium_podagraria1_ies.jpg/48px-Aegopodium_podagraria1_ies.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Aegopodium_podagraria1_ies.jpg/64px-Aegopodium_podagraria1_ies.jpg 2x" data-file-width="800" data-file-height="700"/></a></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Environment" title="Portal:Environment">Environment portal</a></span></li></ul>This <a href="/wiki/Category:Natural_environment" title="Category:Natural environment">environment-related</a> template is part of the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Environment" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Environment">WikiProject Environment</a></b> to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the <a href="/wiki/Natural_environment" title="Natural environment">environment</a>. The aim is to write <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">neutral</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_sources" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Cite sources">well-referenced</a> articles on environment-related topics, as well as to ensure that environment articles are properly <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Categories">categorized</a>.<br/> Read <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contributing_FAQ" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ">Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ</a> and leave any messages at the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Environment" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Environment">project talk page</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Environment</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Environment</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Environment</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Environment articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Sustainable_development.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Sustainable_development.svg/40px-Sustainable_development.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Sustainable_development.svg/60px-Sustainable_development.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Sustainable_development.svg/79px-Sustainable_development.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="512" data-file-height="326"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This template is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Environment/Sustainability_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Environment/Sustainability task force">the Sustainability task force</a></b>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Large,_complex_template" data-mw-thread-id="h-Large,_complex_template-2008-08-24T08:30:00.000Z"><span id="Large.2C_complex_template"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Large,_complex_template-2008-08-24T08:30:00.000Z"></span>Large, complex template<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Large,_complex_template-2008-08-24T08:30:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Large, complex template"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Johnfos-2008-08-24T08:30:00.000Z-Large,_complex_template"></span>This is now a very large and complex template. I would have thought something smaller and more focused would have been better. <a href="/wiki/User:Johnfos" title="User:Johnfos">Johnfos</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Johnfos" title="User talk:Johnfos">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Johnfos-2008-08-24T08:30:00.000Z-Large,_complex_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:30, 24 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Johnfos-2008-08-24T08:30:00.000Z-Large,_complex_template"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Johnfos-2008-08-24T08:30:00.000Z-Large,_complex_template"></span> </p> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-24T10:50:00.000Z-Johnfos-2008-08-24T08:30:00.000Z"></span>Yes; alternatively, I could try dividing it into sections using <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Navbox_with_collapsible_sections" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Navbox with collapsible sections">Navbox with collapsible sections</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>, meaning only one section need be visible when you first see the template on a page. <a href="/wiki/User:Sardanaphalus" title="User:Sardanaphalus">Sardanaphalus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sardanaphalus" title="User talk:Sardanaphalus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-24T10:50:00.000Z-Johnfos-2008-08-24T08:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:50, 24 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-24T10:50:00.000Z-Johnfos-2008-08-24T08:30:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-24T10:50:00.000Z-Johnfos-2008-08-24T08:30:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Teratornis-2008-08-27T05:42:00.000Z-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-24T10:50:00.000Z"></span>I can understand the desire for compact navigation templates, but speaking for myself only, I don't see a problem with a large template when the underlying subject matter is complex. For comparison, see <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Global_warming" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Global warming">Global warming</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> (I also don't like having to click ten times to see the whole template - there should be an "expand all" option). In my opinion, these are complex topics and we shouldn't try to dumb them down. If someone wants to understand a topic as general as "sustainability," they have a lot of reading ahead of them in the disparate fields of economics, politics, ecology, energy, and environmental protection. One way to make smaller templates would be to split off subtopics of sustainability. By analogy, in renewable energy, there are separate templates for each of the technologies, such as <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Wind_power" title="Template:Wind power">Wind power</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>, <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Solar_energy" title="Template:Solar energy">Solar energy</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>, <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Geothermal_power" title="Template:Geothermal power">Geothermal power</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>, etc. There is no one catch-all template for the whole topic of energy, and energy is but one subtopic of sustainability, so it's impressive the <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Sustainability" title="Template:Sustainability">Sustainability</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> template manages to fit on one screen. One way to tighten the template slightly would be to rearrange the groups to reduce the white space. For example, the Technology group has only one entry, which wastes a whole line, and doesn't make much sense given that so many entries in other groups are about technology. Rearranging the entries to get each group to fill its line more efficiently would shrink the height of the box a little (without making the template any simpler). --<a href="/wiki/User:Teratornis" title="User:Teratornis">Teratornis</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Teratornis" title="User talk:Teratornis">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Teratornis-2008-08-27T05:42:00.000Z-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-24T10:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:42, 27 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Teratornis-2008-08-27T05:42:00.000Z-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-24T10:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Teratornis-2008-08-27T05:42:00.000Z-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-24T10:50:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-27T12:43:00.000Z-Teratornis-2008-08-27T05:42:00.000Z"></span>I guess the key distinction is between "dumbing down" (not good) and, for want of a better description, "manageability" (probably good). The template as it currently stands is fine for me too, although I also understand if people think it's "too much all at once". I think I'd keep the Technology group intact as surely there are or will be more entries to add to it..? Thanks for your feedback. <a href="/wiki/User:Sardanaphalus" title="User:Sardanaphalus">Sardanaphalus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sardanaphalus" title="User talk:Sardanaphalus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-27T12:43:00.000Z-Teratornis-2008-08-27T05:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-27T12:43:00.000Z-Teratornis-2008-08-27T05:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-27T12:43:00.000Z-Teratornis-2008-08-27T05:42:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-V.B.-2008-08-28T01:51:00.000Z-Large,_complex_template"></span>I really dislike this template, and many similar ones proliferating now on Wikipedia. It adds little and clutters up articles. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:V.B.&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:V.B. (page does not exist)">V.B.</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:V.B.&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:V.B. (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-V.B.-2008-08-28T01:51:00.000Z-Large,_complex_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-V.B.-2008-08-28T01:51:00.000Z-Large,_complex_template"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-V.B.-2008-08-28T01:51:00.000Z-Large,_complex_template"></span> </p> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-28T03:22:00.000Z-V.B.-2008-08-28T01:51:00.000Z"></span>Whenever you see it, does it always start out collapsed? <a href="/wiki/User:Sardanaphalus" title="User:Sardanaphalus">Sardanaphalus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sardanaphalus" title="User talk:Sardanaphalus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-28T03:22:00.000Z-V.B.-2008-08-28T01:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-28T03:22:00.000Z-V.B.-2008-08-28T01:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-28T03:22:00.000Z-V.B.-2008-08-28T01:51:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zodon-2008-09-23T23:07:00.000Z-V.B.-2008-08-28T01:51:00.000Z"></span>It is large, but still seems manageable. Removing some of the duplicate entries and grouping related/like concepts helps some on the complexity. <a href="/wiki/User:Zodon" title="User:Zodon">Zodon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zodon" title="User talk:Zodon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Zodon-2008-09-23T23:07:00.000Z-V.B.-2008-08-28T01:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:07, 23 September 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zodon-2008-09-23T23:07:00.000Z-V.B.-2008-08-28T01:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zodon-2008-09-23T23:07:00.000Z-V.B.-2008-08-28T01:51:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="How_to_collapse_template?" data-mw-thread-id="h-How_to_collapse_template?-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z"><span id="How_to_collapse_template.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-How_to_collapse_template?-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z"></span>How to collapse template?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-How_to_collapse_template?-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: How to collapse template?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z-How_to_collapse_template?"></span>How come this template is collapsed in some articles and uncollapsed in others without any parameter controlling the state of the template? I want to make it collapsed in <a href="/wiki/Sustainable_food_system" title="Sustainable food system">sustainable food system</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Phenylalanine" title="User:Phenylalanine">Phenylalanine</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phenylalanine" title="User talk:Phenylalanine">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z-How_to_collapse_template?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:43, 24 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z-How_to_collapse_template?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z-How_to_collapse_template?"></span> </p> <ul><li><span class="nowrap"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-24T19:32:00.000Z-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z"></span>{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Collapsible_option" title="Template:Collapsible option">Collapsible option</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> indicates why, although tersely (once you know, you know). I've added it and the {{{state}}} parameter to the template here, so <code style="font-size:95%;">{{Sustainability |state=collapsed}}</code> should do the trick for you. <a href="/wiki/User:Sardanaphalus" title="User:Sardanaphalus">Sardanaphalus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sardanaphalus" title="User talk:Sardanaphalus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-24T19:32:00.000Z-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-24T19:32:00.000Z-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sardanaphalus-2008-08-24T19:32:00.000Z-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z"></span><br/><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T21:09:00.000Z-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z"></span>PS Any thoughts on the thread above?</li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Thanks a lot! The template looks ok to me. --<a href="/wiki/User:Phenylalanine" title="User:Phenylalanine">Phenylalanine</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phenylalanine" title="User talk:Phenylalanine">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T21:09:00.000Z-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T21:09:00.000Z-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T21:09:00.000Z-Phenylalanine-2008-08-24T11:43:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Collapsible_groups" data-mw-thread-id="h-Collapsible_groups-2008-10-09T07:15:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Collapsible_groups-2008-10-09T07:15:00.000Z"></span>Collapsible groups<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Collapsible_groups-2008-10-09T07:15:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Collapsible groups"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zodon-2008-10-09T07:15:00.000Z-Collapsible_groups"></span>I combined several of the like-seeming groups to make collapsible sections for the template. </p><p>Bit of rationale/explanation on the groupings </p> <ul><li>Subdisciplines, activities & professions, and related disciplines - seem similar (fields of study or professions).</li> <li>Resource use - food & water, energy, materials, biodiversity (which is, among other things, a resource - also seems to cover health of whole linked set of resources.) <ul><li>Consumption could also go in this group, but I didn't put it there because of the following</li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/I_PAT" class="mw-redirect" title="I PAT">I PAT</a> - I didn't make a collapsible group for this (seems like should start with something more than a list of groups), but the sections Population, Consumption and Technology would fit reasonably nicely in Erlich et. al's I = Population * Affluence (consumption) * Technology (extraction tech) formula. (The technology section here may not correspond exactly to that model though.)</li></ul> <p>Perhaps the I PAT group should also be collapsible, if there is a way to specify a default group to start out uncollapsed but let the template user select something else. Then template users could select whatever section is appropriate to have uncollapsed. </p><p>There are a few technical problems to be worked out. The spacing didn't come out quite as expected for the section heads for the collapsed sections. </p><p>Thought this might help address the issues with the large size of the template. <a href="/wiki/User:Zodon" title="User:Zodon">Zodon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zodon" title="User talk:Zodon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Zodon-2008-10-09T07:15:00.000Z-Collapsible_groups" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zodon-2008-10-09T07:15:00.000Z-Collapsible_groups"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zodon-2008-10-09T07:15:00.000Z-Collapsible_groups"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Johnfos-2008-10-09T10:06:00.000Z-Zodon-2008-10-09T07:15:00.000Z"></span>That looks much better! Thank you for the time you have put in... <a href="/wiki/User:Johnfos" title="User:Johnfos">Johnfos</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Johnfos" title="User talk:Johnfos">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Johnfos-2008-10-09T10:06:00.000Z-Zodon-2008-10-09T07:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Johnfos-2008-10-09T10:06:00.000Z-Zodon-2008-10-09T07:15:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Johnfos-2008-10-09T10:06:00.000Z-Zodon-2008-10-09T07:15:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Scope_of_the_template" data-mw-thread-id="h-Scope_of_the_template-2010-10-06T23:11:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Scope_of_the_template-2010-10-06T23:11:00.000Z"></span>Scope of the template<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Scope_of_the_template-2010-10-06T23:11:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Scope of the template"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Epipelagic-2010-10-06T23:11:00.000Z-Scope_of_the_template"></span>The template, in its current incarnation, seems to have been subject to expansion creep, and has become rather untidy with an over wide scope. It seems to me that within <a href="/wiki/Category:Environment" title="Category:Environment">Category:Environment</a> both <a href="/wiki/Sustainability" title="Sustainability">sustainability</a> and <a href="/wiki/Conservation_biology" title="Conservation biology">conservation</a> are the major subtopics. There is a template covering the environment in general, called <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Environmental_science" title="Template:Environmental science">environmental science</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>. But there is no template covering conservation. I wonder whether it is worth considering the scope of the sustainability template in this context, perhaps developing the related conservation template also in the process? --<a href="/wiki/User:Epipelagic" title="User:Epipelagic">Epipelagic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Epipelagic" title="User talk:Epipelagic">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Epipelagic-2010-10-06T23:11:00.000Z-Scope_of_the_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Epipelagic-2010-10-06T23:11:00.000Z-Scope_of_the_template"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Epipelagic-2010-10-06T23:11:00.000Z-Scope_of_the_template"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Epipelagic-2010-10-11T06:42:00.000Z-Epipelagic-2010-10-06T23:11:00.000Z"></span>Well, that unleashed a torrent of interest! Anyway, in the interests of a cleaner format, are there objections to <a href="/wiki/User:Epipelagic/Sustainability_TP" title="User:Epipelagic/Sustainability TP">this alternative</a>? --<a href="/wiki/User:Epipelagic" title="User:Epipelagic">Epipelagic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Epipelagic" title="User talk:Epipelagic">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Epipelagic-2010-10-11T06:42:00.000Z-Epipelagic-2010-10-06T23:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:42, 11 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Epipelagic-2010-10-11T06:42:00.000Z-Epipelagic-2010-10-06T23:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Epipelagic-2010-10-11T06:42:00.000Z-Epipelagic-2010-10-06T23:11:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-12T08:03:00.000Z-Epipelagic-2010-10-11T06:42:00.000Z"></span>Seems an improvement. The footer needs to be removed from the collapsed section, so that it's visible even with the subsection collapsed. — <a href="/wiki/User:Arthur_Rubin" title="User:Arthur Rubin">Arthur Rubin</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arthur_Rubin" title="User talk:Arthur Rubin">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-12T08:03:00.000Z-Epipelagic-2010-10-11T06:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:03, 12 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-12T08:03:00.000Z-Epipelagic-2010-10-11T06:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-12T08:03:00.000Z-Epipelagic-2010-10-11T06:42:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zodon-2010-10-12T09:22:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-12T08:03:00.000Z"></span>Proposal is not as good as what have currently.</dd> <dd>The nice thing about the current template as it stands is it gives a concise overview of a lot of ground.</dd> <dd>What will one do with the rest of the template? If planning to spin them off as other templates - need to look at what those templates look like, are they well defined, do they have enough material, do they make sense. Would they require a lot of duplication of material from other portions of the template?</dd> <dd>Why single out the subsections that you kept? (i.e. Resource use and conservation)</dd> <dd>Make graphic much smaller or just remove it - navigation templates are not supposed to be needlessly decorative.</dd> <dd>Have to go - more later. <a href="/wiki/User:Zodon" title="User:Zodon">Zodon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zodon" title="User talk:Zodon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Zodon-2010-10-12T09:22:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-12T08:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:22, 12 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zodon-2010-10-12T09:22:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-12T08:03:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zodon-2010-10-12T09:22:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-12T08:03:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Epipelagic-2010-10-12T10:18:00.000Z-Zodon-2010-10-12T09:22:00.000Z"></span>Why is the proposal "not as good as what have currently"? It seems significantly better to me. The current template is a messy clutter, which does not give a "concise overview of a lot of ground", but rather bristles with busyness and confusion. As though it were a template designed by a committee which has reformed into a number of subcommittees, so responsibility for the overall design is lost. I guess graphics are a matter of perception. I think the graphics are in proportion and make a significant visual improvement. But some people are not visually oriented. It's not really a matter of right or wrong, but more a matter of what most people prefer. --<a href="/wiki/User:Epipelagic" title="User:Epipelagic">Epipelagic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Epipelagic" title="User talk:Epipelagic">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Epipelagic-2010-10-12T10:18:00.000Z-Zodon-2010-10-12T09:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Epipelagic-2010-10-12T10:18:00.000Z-Zodon-2010-10-12T09:22:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Epipelagic-2010-10-12T10:18:00.000Z-Zodon-2010-10-12T09:22:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Epipelagic-2010-10-15T21:36:00.000Z-Epipelagic-2010-10-12T10:18:00.000Z"></span>Okay, there's no general interest in improving the template, so the status quo stands. --<a href="/wiki/User:Epipelagic" title="User:Epipelagic">Epipelagic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Epipelagic" title="User talk:Epipelagic">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Epipelagic-2010-10-15T21:36:00.000Z-Epipelagic-2010-10-12T10:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Epipelagic-2010-10-15T21:36:00.000Z-Epipelagic-2010-10-12T10:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Epipelagic-2010-10-15T21:36:00.000Z-Epipelagic-2010-10-12T10:18:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Division_between_"management"_and_"activities"_seems_arbitrary" data-mw-thread-id="h-Division_between_"management"_and_"activities"_seems_arbitrary-2010-10-12T08:45:00.000Z"><span id="Division_between_.22management.22_and_.22activities.22_seems_arbitrary"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Division_between_"management"_and_"activities"_seems_arbitrary-2010-10-12T08:45:00.000Z"></span>Division between "management" and "activities" seems arbitrary<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Division_between_"management"_and_"activities"_seems_arbitrary-2010-10-12T08:45:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Division between "management" and "activities" seems arbitrary"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zodon-2010-10-12T08:45:00.000Z-Division_between_"management"_and_"activities"_seems_arbitrary"></span>It seems that splitting the section on "Sustainable activities and professions" into "sustainable activities" and "management" introduces an arbitrary distinction based simply on the name of the article/discipline. Is there really a systematic difference between sustainable tourism, or sustainable landscape architecture and sustainable forest management? If you used another name for the later article (e.g. Sustainable forestry), would it still be classified in the "managment" section. I think the two groups should be merged back into one, or the reason for separating needs to be clear based on the concepts involved. <a href="/wiki/User:Zodon" title="User:Zodon">Zodon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zodon" title="User talk:Zodon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Zodon-2010-10-12T08:45:00.000Z-Division_between_"management"_and_"activities"_seems_arbitrary" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zodon-2010-10-12T08:45:00.000Z-Division_between_"management"_and_"activities"_seems_arbitrary"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zodon-2010-10-12T08:45:00.000Z-Division_between_"management"_and_"activities"_seems_arbitrary"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Suggest_remove_specific_renewable_energy_sources" data-mw-thread-id="h-Suggest_remove_specific_renewable_energy_sources-2010-10-12T08:52:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Suggest_remove_specific_renewable_energy_sources-2010-10-12T08:52:00.000Z"></span>Suggest remove specific renewable energy sources<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Suggest_remove_specific_renewable_energy_sources-2010-10-12T08:52:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Suggest remove specific renewable energy sources"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zodon-2010-10-12T08:52:00.000Z-Suggest_remove_specific_renewable_energy_sources"></span>I think we should simplify the template by removing the specific renewable energy sources (Biofuels, Wind, Solar) and just have the general renewable energy article (with possibly the commercialization sub-article). </p> <ul><li>There are already templates that link the renewable energy sources articles.</li> <li>The listing here is not complete (misses hydroelectric, plus several less prevalent sources - geothermal, tidal, ...) <a href="/wiki/User:Zodon" title="User:Zodon">Zodon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zodon" title="User talk:Zodon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Zodon-2010-10-12T08:52:00.000Z-Suggest_remove_specific_renewable_energy_sources" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zodon-2010-10-12T08:52:00.000Z-Suggest_remove_specific_renewable_energy_sources"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zodon-2010-10-12T08:52:00.000Z-Suggest_remove_specific_renewable_energy_sources"></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Adding_sustainable_governance" data-mw-thread-id="h-Adding_sustainable_governance-2010-10-16T07:09:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Adding_sustainable_governance-2010-10-16T07:09:00.000Z"></span>Adding sustainable governance<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Adding_sustainable_governance-2010-10-16T07:09:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Adding sustainable governance"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zodon-2010-10-16T07:09:00.000Z-Adding_sustainable_governance"></span>There has been some edit activity relating to adding an article on sustainable governance to the template. I think it is reasonable to add an article about sustainable governance. The article that has been proposed is <a href="/wiki/Environmental_governance" title="Environmental governance">Environmental governance</a>, which is the most appropriate article on the topic that I am aware of. Are there others articles that are more apropos? </p><p>I think the article should go in the section on Sustainability disciplines and activities, under either Sustainable activities, Management, or Environmental. </p><p>Governing (i.e. managing people or countries) is a major area of human activity. Governmental policies, etc. can have tremendous impact on environment and sustainability. Governments are also tremendous users of resources. Therefore it seems reasonable to have an article about sustainable governance on the template. <a href="/wiki/User:Zodon" title="User:Zodon">Zodon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zodon" title="User talk:Zodon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Zodon-2010-10-16T07:09:00.000Z-Adding_sustainable_governance" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:09, 16 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zodon-2010-10-16T07:09:00.000Z-Adding_sustainable_governance"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zodon-2010-10-16T07:09:00.000Z-Adding_sustainable_governance"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-16T08:23:00.000Z-Zodon-2010-10-16T07:09:00.000Z"></span>I still think the template needs to be trimmed considerably, probably more than 50%. — <a href="/wiki/User:Arthur_Rubin" title="User:Arthur Rubin">Arthur Rubin</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arthur_Rubin" title="User talk:Arthur Rubin">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-16T08:23:00.000Z-Zodon-2010-10-16T07:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-16T08:23:00.000Z-Zodon-2010-10-16T07:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-16T08:23:00.000Z-Zodon-2010-10-16T07:09:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zodon-2010-10-18T08:30:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-16T08:23:00.000Z"></span>I don't agree. However that would be topic for a separate discussion. The question at the moment is, given the current contents and structure of the template, is Environmental governance appropriate. If there is some reason you think it doesn't fit on the template than the other items in the aforementioned area, please explain. (i.e., how is it different than the other sustainable activities mentioned). <a href="/wiki/User:Zodon" title="User:Zodon">Zodon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Zodon" title="User talk:Zodon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Zodon-2010-10-18T08:30:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-16T08:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:30, 18 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zodon-2010-10-18T08:30:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-16T08:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zodon-2010-10-18T08:30:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2010-10-16T08:23:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-99.181.137.81-2011-05-19T06:39:00.000Z-Zodon-2010-10-18T08:30:00.000Z"></span>User:Zodon, please see <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Arthur_Rubin" title="Special:Contributions/Arthur Rubin">Special:Contributions/Arthur Rubin</a> for a behavioral trend (over years), if you haven't already. Also see <i>View History</i> comments. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/99.181.137.81" title="Special:Contributions/99.181.137.81">99.181.137.81</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:99.181.137.81&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:99.181.137.81 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-99.181.137.81-2011-05-19T06:39:00.000Z-Zodon-2010-10-18T08:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:39, 19 May 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-99.181.137.81-2011-05-19T06:39:00.000Z-Zodon-2010-10-18T08:30:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-99.181.137.81-2011-05-19T06:39:00.000Z-Zodon-2010-10-18T08:30:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Planetary_boundaries" data-mw-thread-id="h-Planetary_boundaries-2011-05-19T03:44:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Planetary_boundaries-2011-05-19T03:44:00.000Z"></span>Planetary boundaries<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Planetary_boundaries-2011-05-19T03:44:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Planetary boundaries"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:44:00.000Z-Planetary_boundaries"></span>I've removed <a href="/wiki/Planetary_boundaries" title="Planetary boundaries">Planetary boundaries</a> from the template. I'll restore it if I see a credible reason why it should be included, but I ask that you wait until about 24 hours from now to restore it, as I don't have a good way to check for a certain environmental anon's tendency to add links to that article from everywhere. Last year it was <a href="/wiki/350.org" title="350.org">350.org</a> (among others), this year it's <a href="/wiki/Planetary_boundaries" title="Planetary boundaries">planetary boundaries</a>. — <a href="/wiki/User:Arthur_Rubin" title="User:Arthur Rubin">Arthur Rubin</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arthur_Rubin" title="User talk:Arthur Rubin">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:44:00.000Z-Planetary_boundaries" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:44, 19 May 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:44:00.000Z-Planetary_boundaries"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:44:00.000Z-Planetary_boundaries"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:46:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:44:00.000Z"></span>If someone will point me to a tool which will see which articles link to "<a href="/wiki/Planetary_boundaries" title="Planetary boundaries">planetary boundaries</a>", but <b>not</b> through this template, I'll restore it immediately if I see a credible reason. — <a href="/wiki/User:Arthur_Rubin" title="User:Arthur Rubin">Arthur Rubin</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arthur_Rubin" title="User talk:Arthur Rubin">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:46:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:46, 19 May 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:46:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:46:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:44:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T07:35:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:46:00.000Z"></span>I still don't see a credible reason, but I don't see a credible reason for over half of the entries, so, I'll let the anon's blind revert go, this time. I found that one of the 6 articles with a direct pointer to this one shouldn't have one, and, although I have doubts about 3 of the "See also" references, I'll let it go until we decide whether the target article should exist at all. — <a href="/wiki/User:Arthur_Rubin" title="User:Arthur Rubin">Arthur Rubin</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arthur_Rubin" title="User talk:Arthur Rubin">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T07:35:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:35, 19 May 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T07:35:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T07:35:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T03:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-19T14:36:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T07:35:00.000Z"></span>Now, I've removed it, with the intention of it <i>staying</i> removed. It's not a notable "species" of sustainability. — <a href="/wiki/User:Arthur_Rubin" title="User:Arthur Rubin">Arthur Rubin</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arthur_Rubin" title="User talk:Arthur Rubin">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-19T14:36:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T07:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:36, 19 June 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-19T14:36:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T07:35:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-19T14:36:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T07:35:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-19T14:39:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T07:35:00.000Z"></span>The only credible reason for inclusion is to promote the concept, which is <b>not</b> an allowed reason in Wikipedia. — <a href="/wiki/User:Arthur_Rubin" title="User:Arthur Rubin">Arthur Rubin</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arthur_Rubin" title="User talk:Arthur Rubin">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-19T14:39:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T07:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:39, 19 June 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-19T14:39:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T07:35:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-19T14:39:00.000Z-Arthur_Rubin-2011-05-19T07:35:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Add_Planetary_boundaries_to_"Sustainability_disciplines_and_activities"'s_"Management"_subsection." data-mw-thread-id="h-Add_Planetary_boundaries_to_"Sustainability_disciplines_and_activities"'s_"Manag-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z"><span id="Add_Planetary_boundaries_to_.22Sustainability_disciplines_and_activities.22.27s_.22Management.22_subsection."></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Add_Planetary_boundaries_to_"Sustainability_disciplines_and_activities"'s_"Manag-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z"></span>Add <a href="/wiki/Planetary_boundaries" title="Planetary boundaries">Planetary boundaries</a> to "Sustainability disciplines and activities"'s "Management" subsection.<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Add_Planetary_boundaries_to_"Sustainability_disciplines_and_activities"'s_"Manag-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Add Planetary boundaries to "Sustainability disciplines and activities"'s "Management" subsection."><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-99.190.81.244-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z-Add_Planetary_boundaries_to_"Sustainability_disciplines_and_activities"'s_"Manag"></span>Add <a href="/wiki/Planetary_boundaries" title="Planetary boundaries">Planetary boundaries</a> to "Sustainability disciplines and activities"'s "Management" subsection. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/99.190.81.244" title="Special:Contributions/99.190.81.244">99.190.81.244</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:99.190.81.244" title="User talk:99.190.81.244">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-99.190.81.244-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z-Add_Planetary_boundaries_to_"Sustainability_disciplines_and_activities"'s_"Manag" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:44, 21 June 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-99.190.81.244-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z-Add_Planetary_boundaries_to_"Sustainability_disciplines_and_activities"'s_"Manag"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-99.190.81.244-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z-Add_Planetary_boundaries_to_"Sustainability_disciplines_and_activities"'s_"Manag"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-21T07:56:00.000Z-99.190.81.244-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z"></span>Please provide a reason. It's not a "discipline" or "activity", and it's not notable. — <a href="/wiki/User:Arthur_Rubin" title="User:Arthur Rubin">Arthur Rubin</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arthur_Rubin" title="User talk:Arthur Rubin">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-21T07:56:00.000Z-99.190.81.244-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:56, 21 June 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-21T07:56:00.000Z-99.190.81.244-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-21T07:56:00.000Z-99.190.81.244-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-21T07:59:00.000Z-99.190.81.244-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z"></span>See section above, and reply <b>there</b>. — <a href="/wiki/User:Arthur_Rubin" title="User:Arthur Rubin">Arthur Rubin</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arthur_Rubin" title="User talk:Arthur Rubin">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-21T07:59:00.000Z-99.190.81.244-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:59, 21 June 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-21T07:59:00.000Z-99.190.81.244-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arthur_Rubin-2011-06-21T07:59:00.000Z-99.190.81.244-2011-06-21T06:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Collapsible_sections?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Collapsible_sections?-2012-10-04T09:48:00.000Z"><span id="Collapsible_sections.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Collapsible_sections?-2012-10-04T09:48:00.000Z"></span>Collapsible sections?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Collapsible_sections?-2012-10-04T09:48:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Collapsible sections?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:48:00.000Z-Collapsible_sections?"></span>Continuing the discussions above, this template seems large and wieldy in its present form. Collapsible sections would help, I think, if someone can do that. It sounds like that has been done before, but reverted? Anyone still around who can summarize earlier discussions/ interventions to improve this template? Thanks, <a href="/wiki/User:DASonnenfeld" title="User:DASonnenfeld">DA Sonnenfeld</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DASonnenfeld" title="User talk:DASonnenfeld">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:48:00.000Z-Collapsible_sections?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:48, 4 October 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:48:00.000Z-Collapsible_sections?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:48:00.000Z-Collapsible_sections?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Editing_for_length,_redundancy" data-mw-thread-id="h-Editing_for_length,_redundancy-2012-10-04T09:53:00.000Z"><span id="Editing_for_length.2C_redundancy"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Editing_for_length,_redundancy-2012-10-04T09:53:00.000Z"></span>Editing for length, redundancy<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Editing_for_length,_redundancy-2012-10-04T09:53:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: Editing for length, redundancy"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:53:00.000Z-Editing_for_length,_redundancy"></span>I would suggest removing the group, "Environmental disciplines", from this template. That area is covered more comprehensively by two other, related navigation boxes, <a href="/wiki/Template:Environmental_science" title="Template:Environmental science">Template:Environmental science</a> and <a href="/wiki/Template:Environmental_social_science" title="Template:Environmental social science">Template:Environmental social science</a>. Regards, <a href="/wiki/User:DASonnenfeld" title="User:DASonnenfeld">DA Sonnenfeld</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DASonnenfeld" title="User talk:DASonnenfeld">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:53:00.000Z-Editing_for_length,_redundancy" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:53, 4 October 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:53:00.000Z-Editing_for_length,_redundancy"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:53:00.000Z-Editing_for_length,_redundancy"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:56:00.000Z-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:53:00.000Z"></span>Likewise, the group, "Technology", is covered better by the related navigation box, <a href="/wiki/Template:Environmental_technology" title="Template:Environmental technology">Template:Environmental technology</a>. I would suggest removing the former, as well. <a href="/wiki/User:DASonnenfeld" title="User:DASonnenfeld">DA Sonnenfeld</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DASonnenfeld" title="User talk:DASonnenfeld">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:56:00.000Z-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:56, 4 October 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:56:00.000Z-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:56:00.000Z-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T10:39:00.000Z-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:56:00.000Z"></span>I have done some modest pruning, as per above. One other group that seems superfluous to me is the last one, Glossaries and indices. I would suggest removing that group, as well. Thanks, <a href="/wiki/User:DASonnenfeld" title="User:DASonnenfeld">DA Sonnenfeld</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DASonnenfeld" title="User talk:DASonnenfeld">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T10:39:00.000Z-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:56:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:39, 4 October 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T10:39:00.000Z-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:56:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T10:39:00.000Z-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T09:56:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T10:44:00.000Z-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T10:39:00.000Z"></span>Removed that one, too... <a href="/wiki/User:DASonnenfeld" title="User:DASonnenfeld">DA Sonnenfeld</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DASonnenfeld" title="User talk:DASonnenfeld">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T10:44:00.000Z-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T10:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:44, 4 October 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T10:44:00.000Z-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T10:39:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T10:44:00.000Z-DASonnenfeld-2012-10-04T10:39:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Add_economic_sustainability_to_template?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Add_economic_sustainability_to_template?-2014-01-29T12:20:00.000Z"><span id="Add_economic_sustainability_to_template.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Add_economic_sustainability_to_template?-2014-01-29T12:20:00.000Z"></span>Add economic sustainability to template?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Add_economic_sustainability_to_template?-2014-01-29T12:20:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: Add economic sustainability to template?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jonpatterns-2014-01-29T12:20:00.000Z-Add_economic_sustainability_to_template?"></span>Use the sustainable economics be added to template, as per <a href="/wiki/Sustainability#Economic_dimension" title="Sustainability">Sustainability#Economic dimension</a><a href="/wiki/User:Jonpatterns" title="User:Jonpatterns">Jonpatterns</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jonpatterns" title="User talk:Jonpatterns">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Jonpatterns-2014-01-29T12:20:00.000Z-Add_economic_sustainability_to_template?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:20, 29 January 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jonpatterns-2014-01-29T12:20:00.000Z-Add_economic_sustainability_to_template?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jonpatterns-2014-01-29T12:20:00.000Z-Add_economic_sustainability_to_template?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Environmentalism" data-mw-thread-id="h-Environmentalism-2016-10-19T19:30:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Environmentalism-2016-10-19T19:30:00.000Z"></span>Environmentalism<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Environmentalism-2016-10-19T19:30:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: Environmentalism"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tamita_Secilliterelle-2016-10-19T19:30:00.000Z-Environmentalism"></span>For your information, I just created <a href="/wiki/Template:Environmentalism" title="Template:Environmentalism">Template:Environmentalism</a>. Do no hesitate to improve it!<br/><a href="/wiki/User:Tamita_Secilliterelle" title="User:Tamita Secilliterelle">Tamita Secilliterelle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tamita_Secilliterelle" title="User talk:Tamita Secilliterelle">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-Tamita_Secilliterelle-2016-10-19T19:30:00.000Z-Environmentalism" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:30, 19 October 2016 (UTC)</a>.<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tamita_Secilliterelle-2016-10-19T19:30:00.000Z-Environmentalism"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tamita_Secilliterelle-2016-10-19T19:30:00.000Z-Environmentalism"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Add_topics_around_sustainable_development" data-mw-thread-id="h-Add_topics_around_sustainable_development-2020-09-26T15:11:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Add_topics_around_sustainable_development-2020-09-26T15:11:00.000Z"></span>Add topics around sustainable development<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Add_topics_around_sustainable_development-2020-09-26T15:11:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=14" title="Edit section: Add topics around sustainable development"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EMsmile-2020-09-26T15:11:00.000Z-Add_topics_around_sustainable_development"></span>I am thinking of adding the individual 17 <a href="/wiki/Sustainable_Development_Goals" title="Sustainable Development Goals">Sustainable Development Goals</a> also to this navbox where/if they fit. So e.g. <a href="/wiki/SDG_1" class="mw-redirect" title="SDG 1">SDG 1</a>. What do you think? Is it OK to perhaps add an extra category on "sustainable development"?<a href="/wiki/User:EMsmile" title="User:EMsmile">EMsmile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EMsmile" title="User talk:EMsmile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-EMsmile-2020-09-26T15:11:00.000Z-Add_topics_around_sustainable_development" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:11, 26 September 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EMsmile-2020-09-26T15:11:00.000Z-Add_topics_around_sustainable_development"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EMsmile-2020-09-26T15:11:00.000Z-Add_topics_around_sustainable_development"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EMsmile-20240723214000-EMsmile-2020-09-26T15:11:00.000Z"></span>Update: I no longer think that this should be added. <a href="/wiki/User:EMsmile" title="User:EMsmile">EMsmile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EMsmile" title="User talk:EMsmile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-EMsmile-20240723214000-EMsmile-2020-09-26T15:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EMsmile-20240723214000-EMsmile-2020-09-26T15:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EMsmile-20240723214000-EMsmile-2020-09-26T15:11:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Some_condensing_and_pruning_(July_2024)" data-mw-thread-id="h-Some_condensing_and_pruning_(July_2024)-20240723214200"><span id="Some_condensing_and_pruning_.28July_2024.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Some_condensing_and_pruning_(July_2024)-20240723214200"></span>Some condensing and pruning (July 2024)<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Some_condensing_and_pruning_(July_2024)-20240723214200"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&action=edit&section=15" title="Edit section: Some condensing and pruning (July 2024)"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EMsmile-20240723214200-Some_condensing_and_pruning_(July_2024)"></span>I've just done some condensing and pruning (noting also discussions above where people have said this template has blown out too much). I felt that many times, the selection of articles in the template was rather arbitrary. E.g. in the climate change realm it picked some small sub-sub-articles rather than focusing on higher level ones. I think in general, for this template to be useful, it should be carefully curated and not include every little sub-sub-sub-article under the sun. <a href="/wiki/User:EMsmile" title="User:EMsmile">EMsmile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EMsmile" title="User talk:EMsmile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sustainability#c-EMsmile-20240723214200-Some_condensing_and_pruning_(July_2024)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:42, 23 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EMsmile-20240723214200-Some_condensing_and_pruning_(July_2024)"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EMsmile-20240723214200-Some_condensing_and_pruning_(July_2024)"></span> </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&oldid=1236710712">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sustainability&oldid=1236710712</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Template-Class_Environment_articles" title="Category:Template-Class Environment articles">Template-Class Environment articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:NA-importance_Environment_articles" title="Category:NA-importance Environment articles">NA-importance Environment articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Sustainability_task_force_articles" title="Category:Sustainability task force articles">Sustainability task force articles</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 26 July 2024, at 04:54<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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