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<!DOCTYPE html> <html xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml' xmlns:b='http://www.google.com/2005/gml/b' xmlns:data='http://www.google.com/2005/gml/data' xmlns:expr='http://www.google.com/2005/gml/expr'> <head> <link href='https://www.blogger.com/static/v1/widgets/55013136-widget_css_bundle.css' rel='stylesheet' type='text/css'/> <meta content='text/html; charset=UTF-8' http-equiv='Content-Type'/> <meta content='blogger' name='generator'/> <link href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/favicon.ico' rel='icon' type='image/x-icon'/> <link href='http://gafter.blogspot.com/2019/11/' rel='canonical'/> <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" title="Neal Gafter's blog - Atom" href="https://gafter.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default" /> <link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="Neal Gafter's blog - RSS" href="https://gafter.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default?alt=rss" /> <link rel="service.post" type="application/atom+xml" title="Neal Gafter's blog - Atom" href="https://www.blogger.com/feeds/7803021/posts/default" />  <meta content='http://gafter.blogspot.com/2019/11/' property='og:url'/> <meta content='Neal Gafter's blog' property='og:title'/> <meta content='Thoughts about Programming Languages, Science and Philosophy.' property='og:description'/> <title>Neal Gafter's blog: November 2019</title> <style id='page-skin-1' type='text/css'></style> <link href='https://www.blogger.com/dyn-css/authorization.css?targetBlogID=7803021&zx=320dc9d6-3705-4c62-b5c8-53b2c61cc0a1' media='none' onload='if(media!='all')media='all'' rel='stylesheet'/><noscript><link href='https://www.blogger.com/dyn-css/authorization.css?targetBlogID=7803021&zx=320dc9d6-3705-4c62-b5c8-53b2c61cc0a1' rel='stylesheet'/></noscript> <meta name='google-adsense-platform-account' content='ca-host-pub-1556223355139109'/> <meta name='google-adsense-platform-domain' content='blogspot.com'/> </head> <body> <div class='navbar section' id='navbar'><div class='widget Navbar' data-version='1' id='Navbar1'><script type="text/javascript"> function setAttributeOnload(object, attribute, val) { if(window.addEventListener) { window.addEventListener('load', function(){ object[attribute] = val; }, false); } else { window.attachEvent('onload', function(){ object[attribute] = val; }); } } </script> <div id="navbar-iframe-container"></div> <script type="text/javascript" src="https://apis.google.com/js/platform.js"></script> <script type="text/javascript"> gapi.load("gapi.iframes:gapi.iframes.style.bubble", function() { if (gapi.iframes && gapi.iframes.getContext) { gapi.iframes.getContext().openChild({ url: 'https://www.blogger.com/navbar.g?targetBlogID\x3d7803021\x26blogName\x3dNeal+Gafter\x27s+blog\x26publishMode\x3dPUBLISH_MODE_BLOGSPOT\x26navbarType\x3dBLUE\x26layoutType\x3dLAYOUTS\x26searchRoot\x3dhttps://gafter.blogspot.com/search\x26blogLocale\x3den\x26v\x3d2\x26homepageUrl\x3dhttps://gafter.blogspot.com/\x26vt\x3d9028559674743070826', where: document.getElementById("navbar-iframe-container"), id: "navbar-iframe", messageHandlersFilter: gapi.iframes.CROSS_ORIGIN_IFRAMES_FILTER, messageHandlers: { 'blogger-ping': function() {} } }); } }); </script><script type="text/javascript"> (function() { var script = document.createElement('script'); script.type = 'text/javascript'; script.src = '//pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/google_top_exp.js'; var head = document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0]; if (head) { head.appendChild(script); }})(); </script> </div></div> <div id='outer-wrapper'><div id='wrap2'>  <span id='skiplinks' style='display:none;'> <a href='#main'>skip to main </a> | <a href='#sidebar'>skip to sidebar</a> </span> <div id='header-wrapper'> <div class='header section' id='header'><div class='widget Header' data-version='1' id='Header1'> <div id='header-inner'> <div class='titlewrapper'> <h1 class='title'> <a href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/'> Neal Gafter's blog </a> </h1> </div> <div class='descriptionwrapper'> <p class='description'><span>Thoughts about Programming Languages, Science and Philosophy.</span></p> </div> </div> </div></div> </div> <div id='content-wrapper'> <div id='main-wrapper'> <div class='main section' id='main'><div class='widget Blog' data-version='1' id='Blog1'> <div class='blog-posts hfeed'> <div class="date-outer"> <h2 class='date-header'><span>Sunday, November 03, 2019</span></h2> <div class="date-posts"> <div class='post-outer'> <div class='post'> <a name='1369619875987802958'></a> <h3 class='post-title'> <a href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2019/11/response-to-letter-from-american.html'>Response to letter from American Council on Science and Health.</a> </h3> <div class='post-header-line-1'></div> <div class='post-body'> <p><br /> <div class="MsoNormal"> Alex Berezow, Ph.D.<br /> Vice President of Scientific Affairs<br /> American Council on Science and Health<br /> P.O. Box 1791<br /> New York, NY<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>10156<o:p></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal"> <br /></div> <div class="MsoNormal"> Doctor Berezow-<o:p></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal"> <br /></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 130%; margin-bottom: 12pt;"> I received with interest your letter dated June 7, 2019, on <i><a href="https://www.acsh.org/">American Council on Science and Health</a></i> letterhead, which began “Real scientists and trial lawyers are locked in combat. And the future of science hangs in the balance.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Much of that letter appears to repeat your article <i><a href="https://www.acsh.org/news/2018/08/16/289m-hit-job-science-jackpot-verdict-monsantos-glyphosate-13320">A $289M Hit Job On Science In Jackpot Verdict On Monsanto's Glyphosate</a></i>.</div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 130%; margin-bottom: 12pt;"> I found your letter to contain some dubious scientific claims.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Specifically, you claim that “real science proves that [cancer was caused by glyphosate is] biologically impossible.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I take several issues with this assertion. Most importantly, science does not <i>prove</i> anything.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Proof is something to be found in the realm of mathematics, not science. Science is an inductive process by which we make hypotheses and then gather evidence to determine how likely the hypothesis is to be true or false.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Scientists do not ever reach the state of having 100% <i>proof</i> of a hypothesis.<o:p></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 130%; margin-bottom: 12pt;"> You also claim that there is “no credible scientific evidence [that] links glyphosate to cancer.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Perhaps you are unaware of the meta-analysis <i><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4025008/#">Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma and Occupational Exposure to Agricultural Pesticide Chemical Groups and Active Ingredients: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis</a></i> published in International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health, 2014 Apr, or the meta-analysis <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31342895">Exposure to glyphosate-based herbicides and risk for non-Hodgkin lymphoma: A meta-analysis and supporting evidence</a><span style="mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin;"> in Mutation Research, 2019 July-Sep. The latter is based on the most recent update of the Agricultural Health Study cohort published in 2018 and five case-control studies and found a "compelling link" between exposures to glyphosate-based herbicides and increased risk for non-Hodgkin lymphoma.</span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> Now that you <i>are</i> aware of them, I would ask that you tone down your rhetoric.<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 130%; margin-bottom: 12pt;"> You also claim that “… glyphosate does not cause cancer because it doesn’t harm humans. It is an herbicide, so it is only toxic to plants. There is no known biological mechanism by which glyphosate could cause cancer, so it being a carcinogen isn’t even theoretically possible.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>There is so much wrong with these assertions that it is difficult to know where to begin.<o:p></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 130%; margin-bottom: 12pt;"> First, the opening sentence “glyphosate does not cause cancer because it doesn’t harm humans” draws a conclusion (“does not cause cancer“) based on an assertion (“doesn’t harm humans”) for which no evidence is to be found.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is the kind of statement I would expect an organization such as the Council to disavow like the junk science it seeks to fight against.<o:p></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 130%; margin-bottom: 12pt;"> Second, the statement “It is an herbicide, so it is only toxic to plants” is also conclusory without evidence. Sure, it is <i>sold</i> as an herbicide.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sure, it is <i>used</i> as an herbicide. Sure, it is <i>effective</i> as an herbicide. But those facts are a non-sequitur as to whether it harms non-plants.<o:p></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 130%; margin-bottom: 12pt;"> Finally, the claim “There is no known biological mechanism by which glyphosate could cause cancer, so it being a carcinogen isn’t even theoretically possible” appears to totally misunderstand the scientific process.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mankind has known that the sun produces light and heat for far longer than we have understood any process by which it could be “theoretically possible.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But our failure to understand how the sun produces light didn’t mean that it wasn’t obviously possible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Science infers relationships between things by observing the correlation, whether the precise mechanism of a causal relationship is known or not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> S</span>cientists form a hypothesis and then test the hypothesis by gathering data.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If a causal relationship is shown to exist, the scientist might hypothesize a mechanism for the relationship.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If the mechanism is shown to reliably explain the relationship, a hypothesis might graduate to the level of a <i>theory</i>. To suggest that glyphosate “theoretically” couldn’t be a carcinogen because we have no hypothesis for a mechanism is to turn the scientific process on its head.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This hit job on science is the kind of pseudo-scientific doublespeak and emotional manipulation I would expect you to fight against.<o:p></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 130%; margin-bottom: 12pt;"> Having said all that, I should say that the evidence for human harm I’ve seen does not rise to the level that I would support banning glyphosate.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But if you’re going to resort to the ad-hominem argument that your opponent is spouting junk science to emotionally manipulate others, well then… pot, meet kettle.<o:p></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal"> Sincerely,</div> <div class="MsoNormal"> <br /></div> <div class="MsoNormal"> Neal M Gafter, Ph.D.</div> </p> <div style='clear: both;'></div> </div> <div class='post-footer'> <p 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href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2006/'> 2006 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(20)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2006/12/'> December </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(4)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2006/11/'> November </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(4)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2006/10/'> October </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(3)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2006/09/'> September </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(5)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2006/08/'> August </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(4)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2005/'> 2005 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2005/02/'> February </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2004/'> 2004 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2004/09/'> September </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> <div class='clear'></div> </div> </div><div class='widget Profile' data-version='1' id='Profile1'> <h2>About Me</h2> <div class='widget-content'> <dl class='profile-datablock'> <dt class='profile-data'> <a class='profile-name-link g-profile' href='https://www.blogger.com/profile/08579466817032124881' rel='author' style='background-image: url(//www.blogger.com/img/logo-16.png);'> Neal Gafter </a> </dt> <dd class='profile-textblock'>Neal Gafter is a Computer Programming Language Designer and Implementer, Amateur Scientist and Philosopher. He works on the Rel compiler at Relational.AI. He previously worked for Microsoft on C#, for Google on Calendar, and for Sun Microsystems on Java. Neal was granted an OpenJDK Community Innovators' Challenge award for his design and implementation of lambda expressions for Java. He is coauthor of <em>Java Puzzlers: Traps, Pitfalls, and Corner Cases</em> (Addison Wesley, 2005). He was a member of the C++ Standards Committee and led the development of C and C++ compilers at Sun Microsystems, Microtec Research, and Texas Instruments. He holds a Ph.D. in computer science from the University of Rochester.</dd> </dl> <a class='profile-link' href='https://www.blogger.com/profile/08579466817032124881' rel='author'>View my complete profile</a> <div class='clear'></div> </div> </div></div> </div>  <div class='clear'> </div> </div>  <div id='footer-wrapper'> <div class='footer no-items section' id='footer'></div> </div> </div></div>  <script src="//www.google-analytics.com/urchin.js" type="text/javascript"> </script> <script type='text/javascript'> _uacct = "UA-605497-1"; urchinTracker(); </script> <script type="text/javascript" src="https://www.blogger.com/static/v1/widgets/984859869-widgets.js"></script> <script type='text/javascript'> window['__wavt'] = 'AOuZoY6Gc_zToeeixm6Uhte5agmamu46UQ:1732809986480';_WidgetManager._Init('//www.blogger.com/rearrange?blogID\x3d7803021','//gafter.blogspot.com/2019/11/','7803021'); _WidgetManager._SetDataContext([{'name': 'blog', 'data': {'blogId': '7803021', 'title': 'Neal Gafter\x27s blog', 'url': 'https://gafter.blogspot.com/2019/11/', 'canonicalUrl': 'http://gafter.blogspot.com/2019/11/', 'homepageUrl': 'https://gafter.blogspot.com/', 'searchUrl': 'https://gafter.blogspot.com/search', 'canonicalHomepageUrl': 'http://gafter.blogspot.com/', 'blogspotFaviconUrl': 'https://gafter.blogspot.com/favicon.ico', 'bloggerUrl': 'https://www.blogger.com', 'hasCustomDomain': false, 'httpsEnabled': true, 'enabledCommentProfileImages': true, 'gPlusViewType': 'FILTERED_POSTMOD', 'adultContent': false, 'analyticsAccountNumber': '', 'encoding': 'UTF-8', 'locale': 'en', 'localeUnderscoreDelimited': 'en', 'languageDirection': 'ltr', 'isPrivate': false, 'isMobile': false, 'isMobileRequest': false, 'mobileClass': '', 'isPrivateBlog': false, 'isDynamicViewsAvailable': false, 'feedLinks': '\x3clink rel\x3d\x22alternate\x22 type\x3d\x22application/atom+xml\x22 title\x3d\x22Neal Gafter\x26#39;s blog - 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