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<!DOCTYPE html> <html xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml' xmlns:b='http://www.google.com/2005/gml/b' xmlns:data='http://www.google.com/2005/gml/data' xmlns:expr='http://www.google.com/2005/gml/expr'> <head> <link href='https://www.blogger.com/static/v1/widgets/55013136-widget_css_bundle.css' rel='stylesheet' type='text/css'/> <meta content='text/html; charset=UTF-8' http-equiv='Content-Type'/> <meta content='blogger' name='generator'/> <link href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/favicon.ico' rel='icon' type='image/x-icon'/> <link href='http://gafter.blogspot.com/2010/08/' rel='canonical'/> <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" title="Neal Gafter's blog - Atom" href="https://gafter.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default" /> <link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="Neal Gafter's blog - RSS" href="https://gafter.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default?alt=rss" /> <link rel="service.post" type="application/atom+xml" title="Neal Gafter's blog - Atom" href="https://www.blogger.com/feeds/7803021/posts/default" />  <meta content='http://gafter.blogspot.com/2010/08/' property='og:url'/> <meta content='Neal Gafter's blog' property='og:title'/> <meta content='Thoughts about Programming Languages, Science and Philosophy.' property='og:description'/> <title>Neal Gafter's blog: August 2010</title> <style id='page-skin-1' type='text/css'></style> <link href='https://www.blogger.com/dyn-css/authorization.css?targetBlogID=7803021&zx=274f38bb-4413-4f09-bdbd-c613ffcff189' media='none' onload='if(media!='all')media='all'' rel='stylesheet'/><noscript><link href='https://www.blogger.com/dyn-css/authorization.css?targetBlogID=7803021&zx=274f38bb-4413-4f09-bdbd-c613ffcff189' rel='stylesheet'/></noscript> <meta name='google-adsense-platform-account' content='ca-host-pub-1556223355139109'/> <meta name='google-adsense-platform-domain' content='blogspot.com'/> </head> <body> <div class='navbar section' id='navbar'><div class='widget Navbar' data-version='1' id='Navbar1'><script type="text/javascript"> function setAttributeOnload(object, attribute, val) { if(window.addEventListener) { window.addEventListener('load', function(){ object[attribute] = val; }, false); } else { window.attachEvent('onload', function(){ object[attribute] = val; }); } } </script> <div id="navbar-iframe-container"></div> <script type="text/javascript" src="https://apis.google.com/js/platform.js"></script> <script type="text/javascript"> gapi.load("gapi.iframes:gapi.iframes.style.bubble", function() { if (gapi.iframes && gapi.iframes.getContext) { gapi.iframes.getContext().openChild({ url: 'https://www.blogger.com/navbar/7803021?origin\x3dhttps://gafter.blogspot.com', where: document.getElementById("navbar-iframe-container"), id: "navbar-iframe" }); } }); </script><script type="text/javascript"> (function() { var script = document.createElement('script'); script.type = 'text/javascript'; script.src = '//pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/google_top_exp.js'; var head = document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0]; if (head) { head.appendChild(script); }})(); </script> </div></div> <div id='outer-wrapper'><div id='wrap2'>  <span id='skiplinks' style='display:none;'> <a href='#main'>skip to main </a> | <a href='#sidebar'>skip to sidebar</a> </span> <div id='header-wrapper'> <div class='header section' id='header'><div class='widget Header' data-version='1' id='Header1'> <div id='header-inner'> <div class='titlewrapper'> <h1 class='title'> <a href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/'> Neal Gafter's blog </a> </h1> </div> <div class='descriptionwrapper'> <p class='description'><span>Thoughts about Programming Languages, Science and Philosophy.</span></p> </div> </div> </div></div> </div> <div id='content-wrapper'> <div id='main-wrapper'> <div class='main section' id='main'><div class='widget Blog' data-version='1' id='Blog1'> <div class='blog-posts hfeed'> <div class="date-outer"> <h2 class='date-header'><span>Thursday, August 26, 2010</span></h2> <div class="date-posts"> <div class='post-outer'> <div class='post'> <a name='4819572816623842725'></a> <h3 class='post-title'> <a href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2010/08/couple-of-comments-on-defender-methods.html'>A couple of comments on Defender Methods</a> </h3> <div class='post-header-line-1'></div> <div class='post-body'> <p><p> Brian Goetz has posted <a href="http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~briangoetz/lambda/Defender%20Methods%20v3.pdf">version 3 of his proposal "Defender Methods"</a>, which is a way of adding methods to existing interfaces without breaking binary compatibility. Generally speaking, I think the idea is sound but I think there are some problems with the proposal in its current form. I would normally post my comments on the proposal to <a href="http://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo/lambda-dev">the lambda-dev mailing list</a>, which ensures that any IP embedded in my comments are formally submitted to Oracle's ownership. However, Oracle's recent lawsuit against Google has made it clear that, even though I am a contributor to openjdk7, I do not have a license to Oracle's patents that are necessarily infringed by the use of the openjdk7 source base. This is a very confusing position for the organizer of an open-source effort to take. Rather than continuing to contribute IP directly to the project, I'll post my comments here and contribute them to Oracle once it is clear that I've been granted a license to the patents necessary to use openjdk7. <p> The <a href="http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~briangoetz/lambda/Defender%20Methods%20v3.pdf">latest version of the proposal</a> has added a section on "Binary compatibility" (section 11), but that section fails to address the one binary compatibility issue raised previously: what are the binary compatibility implications of <em>changing</em> the default for a defender method? Since the defender method's default is an implementation detail, such a change should be binary (and source) compatible, but the resolution mechanism (section 3) makes it binary incompatible. The proposal doesn't provide compile-time semantics for invoking an extension method or compile-time rules for when a given class declaration is legal. At the very least there should be rules to ensure that sources that compile cleanly together do not trigger a VM error at runtime due to an ambiguous method invocation. The most natural change of the compile-time rules to match the given runtime resolution rules would make changing the defender method's default a source incompatible change as well (because it could introduce an ambiguity). I believe this undermines the justification for having defender methods out-of-line (section 2). Moreover, the separation forces API designers to create vestigial public API elements (the static extension methods). <p> These issues can be addressed by (a) having defender method bodies written inline, and (b) rejecting non-abstract class declarations where some defender method does not have a unique default. <p> I suspect the proposed implementation mechanisms (sections 7 and 8) will be far too expensive compared to existing virtual method calls. For the Interface.super calls (section 7), my suggestion is to extend the VM specification of invokespecial.</p> <div style='clear: both;'></div> </div> <div class='post-footer'> <p class='post-footer-line post-footer-line-1'><span class='post-comment-link'> <a class='comment-link' href='https://www.blogger.com/comment/fullpage/post/7803021/4819572816623842725' onclick=''>4 comments</a> </span> <span class='post-icons'> </span> <span class='post-backlinks post-comment-link'> </span> </p> <p class='post-footer-line post-footer-line-2'></p> <p class='post-footer-line post-footer-line-3'></p> </div> </div> </div> </div></div> </div> <div class='blog-pager' id='blog-pager'> <span id='blog-pager-newer-link'> <a class='blog-pager-newer-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2016-01-09T16:25:00-08:00&max-results=2&reverse-paginate=true' id='Blog1_blog-pager-newer-link' title='Newer Posts'>Newer Posts</a> </span> <span id='blog-pager-older-link'> <a 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</span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2010/'> 2010 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate expanded'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy toggle-open'> ▼  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2010/08/'> August </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> <ul class='posts'> <li><a href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2010/08/couple-of-comments-on-defender-methods.html'>A couple of comments on Defender Methods</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2010/02/'> February </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> 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</span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2008/01/'> January </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2007/'> 2007 </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(18)</span> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2007/12/'> December </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(2)</span> </li> </ul> <ul class='hierarchy'> <li class='archivedate collapsed'> <a class='toggle' href='javascript:void(0)'> <span class='zippy'> ►  </span> </a> <a class='post-count-link' href='https://gafter.blogspot.com/2007/11/'> November </a> <span class='post-count' dir='ltr'>(1)</span> </li> 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class='profile-datablock'> <dt class='profile-data'> <a class='profile-name-link g-profile' href='https://www.blogger.com/profile/08579466817032124881' rel='author' style='background-image: url(//www.blogger.com/img/logo-16.png);'> Neal Gafter </a> </dt> <dd class='profile-textblock'>Neal Gafter is a Computer Programming Language Designer and Implementer, Amateur Scientist and Philosopher. He works on the Rel compiler at Relational.AI. He previously worked for Microsoft on C#, for Google on Calendar, and for Sun Microsystems on Java. Neal was granted an OpenJDK Community Innovators' Challenge award for his design and implementation of lambda expressions for Java. He is coauthor of <em>Java Puzzlers: Traps, Pitfalls, and Corner Cases</em> (Addison Wesley, 2005). He was a member of the C++ Standards Committee and led the development of C and C++ compilers at Sun Microsystems, Microtec Research, and Texas Instruments. He holds a Ph.D. in computer science from the University of Rochester.</dd> </dl> <a class='profile-link' href='https://www.blogger.com/profile/08579466817032124881' rel='author'>View my complete profile</a> <div class='clear'></div> </div> </div></div> </div>  <div class='clear'> </div> </div>  <div id='footer-wrapper'> <div class='footer no-items section' id='footer'></div> </div> </div></div>  <script src="//www.google-analytics.com/urchin.js" type="text/javascript"> </script> <script type='text/javascript'> _uacct = "UA-605497-1"; urchinTracker(); </script> <script type="text/javascript" src="https://www.blogger.com/static/v1/widgets/2725212210-widgets.js"></script> <script type='text/javascript'> window['__wavt'] = 'AOuZoY7GVsYIou97GygBBf_WUobCYfkOaA:1740599048563';_WidgetManager._Init('//www.blogger.com/rearrange?blogID\x3d7803021','//gafter.blogspot.com/2010/08/','7803021'); _WidgetManager._SetDataContext([{'name': 'blog', 'data': {'blogId': '7803021', 'title': 'Neal Gafter\x27s blog', 'url': 'https://gafter.blogspot.com/2010/08/', 'canonicalUrl': 'http://gafter.blogspot.com/2010/08/', 'homepageUrl': 'https://gafter.blogspot.com/', 'searchUrl': 'https://gafter.blogspot.com/search', 'canonicalHomepageUrl': 'http://gafter.blogspot.com/', 'blogspotFaviconUrl': 'https://gafter.blogspot.com/favicon.ico', 'bloggerUrl': 'https://www.blogger.com', 'hasCustomDomain': false, 'httpsEnabled': true, 'enabledCommentProfileImages': true, 'gPlusViewType': 'FILTERED_POSTMOD', 'adultContent': false, 'analyticsAccountNumber': '', 'encoding': 'UTF-8', 'locale': 'en', 'localeUnderscoreDelimited': 'en', 'languageDirection': 'ltr', 'isPrivate': false, 'isMobile': false, 'isMobileRequest': false, 'mobileClass': '', 'isPrivateBlog': false, 'isDynamicViewsAvailable': false, 'feedLinks': '\x3clink rel\x3d\x22alternate\x22 type\x3d\x22application/atom+xml\x22 title\x3d\x22Neal Gafter\x26#39;s blog - 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