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subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-Code_confusion?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-The_current_code" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#The_current_code"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3.1</span> <span>The current code</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-The_current_code-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-The_solution" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#The_solution"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3.2</span> <span>The solution</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-The_solution-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3.3</span> <span>The full code I recommend for this template</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Broken..." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Broken..."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Broken...</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Broken...-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Instructions" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Instructions"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Instructions</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Instructions-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Nowrap_how-to_guide" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Nowrap_how-to_guide"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>Nowrap how-to guide</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Nowrap_how-to_guide-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Character_vs_entity?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Character_vs_entity?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>Character vs entity?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Character_vs_entity?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Why?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Why?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>Why?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Why?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-The_character_is_hard_to_type" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#The_character_is_hard_to_type"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>The character is hard to type</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-The_character_is_hard_to_type-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Span?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Span?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>Span?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">6 comments</span> <button aria-controls="toc-Span?-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle Span? subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-Span?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Bolding_embedding_test" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Bolding_embedding_test"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10.1</span> <span>Bolding embedding test</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Bolding_embedding_test-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Edit_request_from_118.100.126.140,_7_August_2011" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Edit_request_from_118.100.126.140,_7_August_2011"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11</span> <span>Edit request from 118.100.126.140, 7 August 2011</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Edit_request_from_118.100.126.140,_7_August_2011-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Redirect_requested" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Redirect_requested"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">12</span> <span>Redirect requested</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Redirect_requested-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Another_lunkheaded,_misnamed_template" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Another_lunkheaded,_misnamed_template"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">13</span> <span>Another lunkheaded, misnamed template</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Another_lunkheaded,_misnamed_template-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">14</span> <span>Protected edit request on 13 June 2014</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">26 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <nav aria-label="Contents" class="vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-titlebar-toc vector-button-flush-left" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Toggle the table of contents" > <label id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-label" for="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-listBullet mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-listBullet"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Toggle the table of contents</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> </div> </div> </div> </nav> <h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading mw-first-heading"><span class="mw-page-title-namespace">Template talk</span><span class="mw-page-title-separator">:</span><span class="mw-page-title-main">·</span></h1> <div id="p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown mw-portlet mw-portlet-lang mw-portlet-lang-icon-only" > <input type="checkbox" id="p-lang-btn-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox mw-interlanguage-selector-empty" aria-label="This article exist only in this language. 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<div class="vector-body-before-content"> <div class="mw-indicators"> </div> <div id="siteSub" class="noprint">From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</div> </div> <div id="contentSub"><div id="mw-content-subtitle"></div></div> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237879475">.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:#f8eaba;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 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class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-protection" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/44/Full-protection-shackle.svg/45px-Full-protection-shackle.svg.png" decoding="async" width="45" height="45" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/44/Full-protection-shackle.svg/68px-Full-protection-shackle.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/44/Full-protection-shackle.svg/90px-Full-protection-shackle.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="512" data-file-height="512"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><a href="/wiki/Template:%C2%B7" title="Template:·">Template:·</a> is <b>permanently <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Protection_policy" title="Wikipedia:Protection policy">protected</a> from editing</b> because it is a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:High-risk_templates" title="Wikipedia:High-risk templates">heavily used or highly visible template</a>. Substantial changes should first be proposed and discussed here on this page. If the proposal is uncontroversial or has been discussed and is supported by <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus" title="Wikipedia:Consensus">consensus</a>, editors may use {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Edit_protected" title="Template:Edit protected">edit protected</a>}} to notify an administrator to make the requested edit. Usually, any contributor may edit the template's <b><a href="/wiki/Template:%C2%B7/doc" title="Template:·/doc">documentation</a></b> to add usage notes or <a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">categories</a>. <p>Any contributor may edit the template's <b><a href="/wiki/Template:%C2%B7/sandbox" title="Template:·/sandbox">sandbox</a></b>. Functionality of the template can be checked using <b><a href="/wiki/Template:%C2%B7/testcases" title="Template:·/testcases">test cases</a></b>. </p> <div style="padding:0.5em"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1127644699">.mw-parser-output #request_edit_inputbox .commentboxInput,.mw-parser-output #request_edit_inputbox br{display:none}</style> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="commentbox" class="commentbox mw-inputbox-form" action="/w/index.php" method="get" id="request_edit_inputbox"><input type="hidden" value="edit" name="action"/><input type="hidden" value="Template:Request edit button/preload" name="preload"/><input type="hidden" value="Edit fully-protected" name="preloadparams[]"/><div class="cdx-text-input"><input type="hidden" name="preloadtitle" class="mw-inputbox-input commentboxInput cdx-text-input__input" value="Edit request {{subst:#time:j F Y}}" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="new" name="section"/><input type="hidden" value="Template talk:·" name="title"/><br/><input type="submit" name="create" value="Request edit" class="cdx-button cdx-button--action-progressive cdx-button--weight-primary"/></form></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Fixing_doc" data-mw-thread-id="h-Fixing_doc-2007-01-24T21:42:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Fixing_doc-2007-01-24T21:42:00.000Z"></span>Fixing doc<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Fixing_doc-2007-01-24T21:42:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Fixing doc"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mwtoews-2007-01-24T21:42:00.000Z-Fixing_doc"></span>This template and the documentation are not set up properly; e.g., the Doc page is referenced in a category; not the template. Fix this by first editing <a href="/wiki/Template:%C2%B7" title="Template:·">Template:·</a> (note: use source in between pre-formatted tags, as you miss seeing the <code>&nbsp</code> somewhere here): </p> <pre><span style="white-space:nowrap; font-weight:bold;"> ·</span><noinclude> {{protected template}} {{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/doc}}  </noinclude> </pre> <p>Furthermore, the <a href="/wiki/Template:%C2%B7/doc" title="Template:·/doc">Template:·/doc</a> subpage violates some guidelines set in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DOC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DOC">WP:DOC</a>; namely that it is locked, and has an odd and buggy structure. Use this template to edit the page (I can't!): </p> <pre><includeonly>{{template doc page transcluded}}</includeonly><noinclude>{{template doc page viewed directly}}</noinclude>  <includeonly>   </includeonly> </pre> <p>Thanks. <samp>+<a href="/wiki/User:Mwtoews" title="User:Mwtoews">mwtoews</a></samp> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Mwtoews-2007-01-24T21:42:00.000Z-Fixing_doc" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mwtoews-2007-01-24T21:42:00.000Z-Fixing_doc"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mwtoews-2007-01-24T21:42:00.000Z-Fixing_doc"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Luna_Santin-2007-01-24T22:18:00.000Z-Mwtoews-2007-01-24T21:42:00.000Z"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Yes_check.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/30px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/40px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></a></span> <b>Done</b>. Unprotected /doc for the time being, as well. <a href="/wiki/User:Luna_Santin" title="User:Luna Santin">Luna Santin</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Luna_Santin-2007-01-24T22:18:00.000Z-Mwtoews-2007-01-24T21:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Luna_Santin-2007-01-24T22:18:00.000Z-Mwtoews-2007-01-24T21:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Luna_Santin-2007-01-24T22:18:00.000Z-Mwtoews-2007-01-24T21:42:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Trailing_space" data-mw-thread-id="h-Trailing_space-2007-05-23T08:37:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Trailing_space-2007-05-23T08:37:00.000Z"></span>Trailing space<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Trailing_space-2007-05-23T08:37:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Trailing space"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span class="nowrap"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Psantora-2007-05-23T08:37:00.000Z-Trailing_space"></span>{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Editprotected" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Editprotected">editprotected</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> can the template be changed to: </p> <pre><includeonly><span style="white-space:nowrap; font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> </includeonly><noinclude> {{protected template}} {{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/doc}}  </noinclude> </pre> <p>The extra trailing breaking space should just make it easier to add to templates... IE: </p> <pre>[[ImageWriter II|II]]{{·}} [[ImageWriter LQ|LQ]] </pre> <p>becomes </p> <pre>[[ImageWriter II|II]]{{·}}[[ImageWriter LQ|LQ]] </pre> <p>existing uses of this template shouldn't break as an additional space in the above example will still render the same way. The only possible hiccup I can think of is if someone used the template and added a hard non-breaking space afterwards. I'm not sure why someone would do that, but this change would add a second space, which would include a line break where previously there was none. Additionally, in that hypothetical situation, the only way to rectify the situation so it performs the same way before this edit is to remove the template entirely and code the non-breaking spaces manually. I submit that it is very unlikely that someone is using the template in this way, and even if they were, the fix would be pretty obvious and probably make the code look somewhat cleaner anyway. IE: </p> <pre>{{·}}&nbsp; </pre> <p>would need to be changed to </p> <pre>&nbsp;·&nbsp; </pre> <p>Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Psantora" title="User:Psantora">Paul</a><small><sup><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Psantora" title="Special:Contributions/Psantora">C</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Psantora" title="User talk:Psantora">T</a><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Psantora&action=edit&section=new">+</a></sub></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Psantora-2007-05-23T08:37:00.000Z-Trailing_space" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Psantora-2007-05-23T08:37:00.000Z-Trailing_space"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Psantora-2007-05-23T08:37:00.000Z-Trailing_space"></span> </p> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David_Kernow-2007-05-23T15:11:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-05-23T08:37:00.000Z"></span>Thanks for taking the time to make a suggestion! I wonder, though, if it might be unwise, for – unless I've misunderstood the above – it removes the inbuilt linewrap management (that the use <code>item{{·}} item</code> is meant to imply, i.e. if/when linewrap is to occur, it will occur between a separator and the next item). The new syntax might also lead to less readable code, i.e. code that itself doesn't linewrap unless there are spaces in the items listed. Hope, though, I've not misread the implications. Yours, <a href="/wiki/User:David_Kernow" title="User:David Kernow">David Kernow</a> <span style="font-size:90%;"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_Kernow" title="User talk:David Kernow">(talk)</a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-David_Kernow-2007-05-23T15:11:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-05-23T08:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David_Kernow-2007-05-23T15:11:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-05-23T08:37:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David_Kernow-2007-05-23T15:11:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-05-23T08:37:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Psantora-2007-05-23T16:17:00.000Z-David_Kernow-2007-05-23T15:11:00.000Z"></span>The built-in line-wrapping should still work the same way and nothing should really change for the scores of templates that already use the current version. Regarding the readability of code, you are right that it is marginally easier to read with the additional space, but this can still be remedied by adding the extra space in anyway eventhough it isn't required as it won't change how it is rendered (two spaces get condensed into one). <a href="/wiki/User:Psantora" title="User:Psantora">Paul</a><small><sup><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Psantora" title="Special:Contributions/Psantora">C</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Psantora" title="User talk:Psantora">T</a><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Psantora&action=edit&section=new">+</a></sub></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Psantora-2007-05-23T16:17:00.000Z-David_Kernow-2007-05-23T15:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Psantora-2007-05-23T16:17:00.000Z-David_Kernow-2007-05-23T15:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Psantora-2007-05-23T16:17:00.000Z-David_Kernow-2007-05-23T15:11:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Luna_Santin-2007-05-24T00:56:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-05-23T16:17:00.000Z"></span>On a side note, this template is pretty widely used; I'll link this discussion from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)">Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)</a> in a moment. – <span style="font-family: Garamond"><a href="/wiki/User:Luna_Santin" title="User:Luna Santin"><span style="color:#1E90FF;"><b>Luna Santin</b></span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Luna_Santin" title="User talk:Luna Santin">talk</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Luna_Santin-2007-05-24T00:56:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-05-23T16:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Luna_Santin-2007-05-24T00:56:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-05-23T16:17:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Luna_Santin-2007-05-24T00:56:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-05-23T16:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David_Kernow-2007-05-25T00:06:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-05-23T16:17:00.000Z"></span>Re losing the linewrap management, I see I forgot that you'd addressed this in your suggestion; there was a delay between my reading it and repsonding, so apologies! More or less readable code aside, I'm not sure how great the benefit might be; where I've seen <a href="/wiki/Template:%C2%B7" title="Template:·">{{·}}</a> in use, it's either as suggested (i.e. with gap before the next item, serving as a visual reminder as to where a linewrap may occur) or as <code>item {{·}} item</code>, i.e. ineffectually for the current or your suggested version... Anyone else...? Yours, <a href="/wiki/User:David_Kernow" title="User:David Kernow">David</a> <span style="font-size:90%;">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_Kernow" title="User talk:David Kernow">talk</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-David_Kernow-2007-05-25T00:06:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-05-23T16:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David_Kernow-2007-05-25T00:06:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-05-23T16:17:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David_Kernow-2007-05-25T00:06:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-05-23T16:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-14T06:11:00.000Z-David_Kernow-2007-05-25T00:06:00.000Z"></span>Psantora/Paul: I saw that you today changed your code example above from <dl><dd><code>font-weight:bold;"> · </span></includeonly></code></dd></dl></dd> <dd>to <dl><dd><code>font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> </includeonly></code></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Just wanted to point out that the discussion above and my long response below was based on your old code. Oh, and yes, what you changed to today is better and is the code I recommended below. (To have a normal wrapping and collapsing space after the end span tag.) --<a href="/wiki/User:Davidgothberg" title="User:Davidgothberg">David Göthberg</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-14T06:11:00.000Z-David_Kernow-2007-05-25T00:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-14T06:11:00.000Z-David_Kernow-2007-05-25T00:06:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-14T06:11:00.000Z-David_Kernow-2007-05-25T00:06:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Code_confusion?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Code_confusion?-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z"><span id="Code_confusion.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Code_confusion?-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z"></span>Code confusion?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Code_confusion?-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Code confusion?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Editprotected" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Editprotected">editprotected</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> </p><p>I see there seems to be a lot of confusion about the current code. It seems most people who have written on this talkpage do not know the meaning of <code>style="white-space:nowrap;"</code>. That code means that all normal blanks in the scope of that span tag will NOT allow line breaks. That is, they almost become <code>&nbsp;</code>. And I hope you people know that <code>&nbsp;</code> have two functions? They never allow line breaks and they never collapse together. So two <code>&nbsp;</code> after each other takes up the space of two blanks. While two or more normal blanks collapse together to the width of one blank. (And they still collapse together even if within the scope of a <code>style="white-space:nowrap;"</code>.) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="The_current_code" data-mw-thread-id="h-The_current_code-Code_confusion?-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-The_current_code-Code_confusion?-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z"></span>The current code<span data-mw-comment-end="h-The_current_code-Code_confusion?-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z"></span></h4><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: The current code"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <dl><dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z-The_current_code"></span>Note: This is not any longer the current code since this template has now been updated according to this suggestion.</i> --<a href="/wiki/User:Davidgothberg" title="User:Davidgothberg">David Göthberg</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z-The_current_code" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z-The_current_code"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z-The_current_code"></span></dd></dl> <p>Let me give some different code versions that are almost exactly equivalent. </p><p>Current upper half of the code: </p> <pre><includeonly><span style="white-space:nowrap; font-weight:bold;">&nbsp;·</span></includeonly> </pre> <p>We can use wiki markup instead of the <code>font-weight:bold;</code> part: </p> <pre><includeonly><span style="white-space:nowrap; ">'''&nbsp;·'''</span></includeonly> </pre> <p>No need for the <code>&nbsp;</code> since we have the <code>white-space:nowrap;</code> part: </p> <pre><includeonly><span style="white-space:nowrap; ">''' ·'''</span></includeonly> </pre> <p>Or why not use the <code>&nbsp;</code> instead: </p> <pre><includeonly>'''&nbsp;·'''</includeonly> </pre> <p>Look ma, no <code><span></code>!!! </p><p>If any of the codes above are used in any of these ways: </p> <pre>[[Salt]]{{·}} [[Pepper]] [[Salt]]{{·}} [[Pepper]] </pre> <p>It will render with exactly one blank on each side like this: </p> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Salt" title="Salt">Salt</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Black_pepper" title="Black pepper">Pepper</a></dd></dl> <p>Or if it line breaks the break will come neatly after the dot: </p> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Salt" title="Salt">Salt</a> <b>·</b></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/Black_pepper" title="Black pepper">Pepper</a></dd></dl> <p>However if no blank are left after the template, like this: </p> <pre>[[Salt]]{{·}}[[Pepper]] </pre> <p>Then it will NEVER line break. It will render like this, even if there is not space enough. Note the ugly lack of a blank on the right side: </p> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Salt" title="Salt">Salt</a> <b>·</b><a href="/wiki/Black_pepper" title="Black pepper">Pepper</a></dd></dl> <p>If one or more blanks are left before the template, like one of these ways: </p> <pre>[[Salt]] {{·}} [[Pepper]] [[Salt]] {{·}} [[Pepper]] </pre> <p>Then it will render with two blanks on the left and exactly one blank on the right, like this: </p> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Salt" title="Salt">Salt</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Black_pepper" title="Black pepper">Pepper</a></dd></dl> <p>But if it line breaks it might break before the dot (and then also get an extra blank before the dot), like this: </p> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Salt" title="Salt">Salt</a></dd> <dd> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Black_pepper" title="Black pepper">Pepper</a></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="The_solution" data-mw-thread-id="h-The_solution-Code_confusion?-2007-08-15T12:36:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-The_solution-Code_confusion?-2007-08-15T12:36:00.000Z"></span>The solution<span data-mw-comment-end="h-The_solution-Code_confusion?-2007-08-15T12:36:00.000Z"></span></h4><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: The solution"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <dl><dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-15T12:36:00.000Z-The_solution"></span>Note, part of the solution I suggested here did not work. Se discussion further below. --<a href="/wiki/User:Davidgothberg" title="User:Davidgothberg">David Göthberg</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-15T12:36:00.000Z-The_solution" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-15T12:36:00.000Z-The_solution"></span></i><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-15T12:36:00.000Z-The_solution"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></dd></dl> <p>If the user adds blanks before then there is nothing we can do about the line breaks, no matter what template code we use. But there are several other things we can do better! </p><p>From what I understand most of us want the line breaks to always happen after the dot, and if there is no line break we want exactly one blank on each side. Preferably no matter how wrong the article editor has used the template. And we can pretty much fix that. </p><p>What we need is some kind of nowrapping blank before the dot. And a normal blank after the dot that can wrap. And we want the blanks both before and after the dot to be "collapsible". That is, if the user leaves no blanks, or blanks before or after or both, like any of these variants: </p> <pre>[[Salt]]{{·}}[[Pepper]] [[Salt]] {{·}}[[Pepper]] [[Salt]] {{·}}[[Pepper]] [[Salt]]{{·}} [[Pepper]] [[Salt]]{{·}} [[Pepper]] [[Salt]] {{·}} [[Pepper]] </pre> <p>Then we want that to collapse to exactly one blank on each side when it renders, like this: </p> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Salt" title="Salt">Salt</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Black_pepper" title="Black pepper">Pepper</a></dd></dl> <p>And even if the user left no blanks, like this: </p> <pre>[[Salt]]{{·}}[[Pepper]] </pre> <p>Then we still want it to line wrap neatly after the dot: </p> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Salt" title="Salt">Salt</a> <b>·</b></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/Black_pepper" title="Black pepper">Pepper</a></dd></dl> <p>So, before the dot we need a collapsible blank that will not wrap. The only way to do that is to use a normal blank and protect it with a <code>style="white-space:nowrap;"</code>. We can not use a <code>&nbsp;</code> since it does not collapse with other blanks. </p><p>And after the dot we also want a collapsible blank, but this time we want it to allow wraps. And the only way to do that is to use a normal blank and NOT protect it with a <code>style="white-space:nowrap;"</code>. </p><p>So let's code that. But wait, since normal blanks are collapsible we can have several of them together to make the code more readable. Note that the code I mean is the code you see when you view this page, not when you edit it. So here is the code: </p> <pre><includeonly><span style="white-space:nowrap; "> '''·'''</span> </includeonly> </pre> <p>Here I used wikimarkup <code>''' '''</code> for the bold dot, but we can just as well use <code>style="font-weight:bold;"</code>. Like this: </p> <pre><includeonly><span style="white-space:nowrap; font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> </includeonly> </pre> <p>Now, take a close look where I did put the blanks. The first blank(s) are right before the bold dot. Well protected by the nowrap span-tag. But the second blank(s) are AFTER the end of the <code></span></code>, thus not protected by the nowrap span-tag. So those blanks can wrap. But note that they are still before the <code></includeonly></code> and thus will be included in the articles. </p><p>So if we use this code then we can think of it as if this template looks like this: </p> <pre>{{ · }} </pre> <p>That is, if the user for instance writes this: </p> <pre>[[Salt]]{{·}}[[Pepper]] </pre> <p>Then we can think of it as: </p> <pre>[[Salt]]{{ · }}[[Pepper]] </pre> <p>I ran several tests and the code seems to do exactly what I say it should do. In all my three web browsers too. </p><p>Oh, by the way, I think that we shall keep the recommended usage with one blank after the template. Like this: </p> <pre>[[Salt]]{{·}} [[Pepper]]{{·}} [[Curry]] </pre> <p>That means the user code shows what is intended to happen, that the user code wraps in the edit boxes and it is more forward compatible (in case some one messes up the code within this template). </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template" data-mw-thread-id="h-The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template-Code_confusion?-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template-Code_confusion?-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z"></span>The full code I recommend for this template<span data-mw-comment-end="h-The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template-Code_confusion?-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z"></span></h4><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: The full code I recommend for this template"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <pre><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z-The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template"></span><includeonly><span style="white-space:nowrap; font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> </includeonly><noinclude> {{protected template}} {{template doc}}  </noinclude> </pre> <p>Please cut and paste this code from the edit window. (But don't use the pre and nowiki tags.) </p><p>This also uses the new <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Template_doc" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Template doc">template doc</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> that is recommended at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_documentation" title="Wikipedia:Template documentation">Wikipedia:Template documentation</a>. </p><p>If you want to see how this code behave then you can try <a href="/wiki/Template:%E2%80%A2" title="Template:•">{{•}}</a>, <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Ndash" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Ndash">ndash</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> or <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Mdash" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Mdash">mdash</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>. They all use the same code but a bullet, ndash or mdash instead of a bold middot. </p><p>--<a href="/wiki/User:Davidgothberg" title="User:Davidgothberg">David Göthberg</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z-The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:42, 11 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z-The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z-The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TKD-2007-08-12T23:43:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z"></span>Since it's been over a day, and no one has objected, I've performed the edit. — <a href="/wiki/User:TKD" title="User:TKD">TKD</a>::<b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TKD" title="User talk:TKD">Talk</a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-TKD-2007-08-12T23:43:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TKD-2007-08-12T23:43:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TKD-2007-08-12T23:43:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2007-08-11T10:42:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z-TKD-2007-08-12T23:43:00.000Z"></span>Whoa! Things are moving fast, even for this kind of high risk template. Thanks for the confidence in my code. I checked some articles that use it and ran some more provocation tests. It seems to work perfectly. Now all I have to do is to update the documentation. --<a href="/wiki/User:Davidgothberg" title="User:Davidgothberg">David Göthberg</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z-TKD-2007-08-12T23:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z-TKD-2007-08-12T23:43:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z-TKD-2007-08-12T23:43:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TKD-2007-08-13T09:47:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z"></span>To be honest, I had actually seen your suggestion a day ago, since I have this template watchlisted (along with some 4,000 other pages, but that's beside the point :)). I probably should've responded then to acknowledge that I had seen it and it looked fine to me, and that I was waiting to see whether there were objections, since this template is used in navboxes galore. I probably got distracted. — <a href="/wiki/User:TKD" title="User:TKD">TKD</a>::<b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TKD" title="User talk:TKD">Talk</a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-TKD-2007-08-13T09:47:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TKD-2007-08-13T09:47:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TKD-2007-08-13T09:47:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2007-08-13T01:15:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:42:00.000Z-TKD-2007-08-13T09:47:00.000Z"></span>Is there a reason why there are two spaces in the code? Shouldn't it be this:</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <pre><includeonly><span style="white-space:nowrap; font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> </includeonly><noinclude> {{protected template}} {{template doc}}  </noinclude> </pre> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Or, if you want the second spaces, shouldn't it be this:</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <pre><includeonly><span style="white-space:nowrap; font-weight:bold;"> · </span> </includeonly><noinclude> {{protected template}} {{template doc}}  </noinclude> </pre> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Otherwise, the 2nd space after the span gets collapsed... right? Also, it seems to not be working correctly below, but that might have something to do with the code in that template... <a href="/wiki/User:Psantora" title="User:Psantora">Paul</a><small><sup><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Psantora" title="Special:Contributions/Psantora">C</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Psantora" title="User talk:Psantora">T</a><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Psantora&action=edit&section=new">+</a></sub></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:42:00.000Z-TKD-2007-08-13T09:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:42:00.000Z-TKD-2007-08-13T09:47:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:42:00.000Z-TKD-2007-08-13T09:47:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TKD-2007-08-14T05:56:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:42:00.000Z"></span>The idea is that we want both <code>A{{tl|·}}B</code> and <code>A{{tl|·}} B</code> to work. With the code change that added the second <i>breaking</i>, collapsible space, both should work whether or not the trailing space is included. — <a href="/wiki/User:TKD" title="User:TKD">TKD</a>::<b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TKD" title="User talk:TKD">Talk</a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-TKD-2007-08-14T05:56:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TKD-2007-08-14T05:56:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TKD-2007-08-14T05:56:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:42:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TKD-2007-08-14T06:16:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:42:00.000Z"></span>Oh, never mind. I see what you mean. The second spaces within each section are redundant, and that'snot the problem you're seeing. I'll respond below. — <a href="/wiki/User:TKD" title="User:TKD">TKD</a>::<b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TKD" title="User talk:TKD">Talk</a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-TKD-2007-08-14T06:16:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TKD-2007-08-14T06:16:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TKD-2007-08-14T06:16:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:42:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-14T06:47:00.000Z-The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template"></span>First of all Psandora/Paul, you should carefully read my discussion and explanations above. All the way from the section "<b>Code confusion?</b>" and down. I already explained it all there. Of your two examples above the first one is the correct one and is exactly equivalent to the code I suggested and that we today are running. I only used two spaces to make the code more readable. (Apparently I was wrong and caused confusion instead.) I explained that in my discussion above. Two or more normal collapsible spaces immediately next to each other always gets collapsed together to one space by all web browsers so they mean one space. </p><p>Your second example above where you put one space between the dot and the end span tag is weird and confusing. But I think it will render the same results since the space before and after the end span tag will collapse to one space, but since the second one allows wraps (line breaks) it will still allow line breaks to happen (but now one space away from the dot). </p><p>So yes, the correct code should be: </p> <pre><includeonly><span style="white-space:nowrap; font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> </includeonly> </pre> <p>Which is exactly equivalent to what we are running today: </p> <pre><includeonly><span style="white-space:nowrap; font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> </includeonly> </pre> <p>Now the next issue is your big template below. I took a close look at it and saw that you are mixing different kinds of dots and how you make the dots. And the template's edit history shows you have been mixing that since long before we changed to the new code for the middot template. (We changed the code yesterday.) But unfortunately that is not the problem. I wish it was that simple. The wrapping problem is not your fault. It's my fault. Or rather, the buggy web browser's fault. </p><p>Yesterday only hours after we deployed the new code for the middot template I too discovered that wrapping problem in my own dotted lists. That is, sometimes a dot falls down to the next row. I have been investigating the problem since then. It seems the web browsers do not fully respect our <code>style="white-space:nowrap;"</code> code. It's weird that I didn't discover it before. I had tested the code thoroughly before we applied it. I already used it for the <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Bullet" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Bullet">bullet</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>, <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Ndash" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Ndash">ndash</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> and <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Mdash" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Mdash">mdash</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> templates and tested them all in all kinds of provocation tests. But now they all have that wrapping problem. </p><p>Before we go ahead and change to one of the more primitive solutions I would like to get some more time to try and find a good solution. I have some more ideas to test. I hope you guys can have the patience? </p><p>--<a href="/wiki/User:Davidgothberg" title="User:Davidgothberg">David Göthberg</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-14T06:47:00.000Z-The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-14T06:47:00.000Z-The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-14T06:47:00.000Z-The_full_code_I_recommend_for_this_template"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Broken..." data-mw-thread-id="h-Broken...-2007-08-14T04:28:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Broken...-2007-08-14T04:28:00.000Z"></span>Broken...<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Broken...-2007-08-14T04:28:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Broken..."><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:28:00.000Z-Broken..."></span> Checkout <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:NFL" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:NFL">NFL</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>: </p><div class="navbox-styles"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1129693374">.mw-parser-output .hlist dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul{margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt,.mw-parser-output .hlist li{margin:0;display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ul{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist .mw-empty-li{display:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dt::after{content:": "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li::after{content:" · ";font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li:last-child::after{content:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:first-child::before{content:" (";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:last-child::after{content:")";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol{counter-reset:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li{counter-increment:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li::before{content:" "counter(listitem)"\a0 "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li ol>li:first-child::before{content:" ("counter(listitem)"\a0 "}</style><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1126788409">.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul{line-height:inherit;list-style:none;margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol li,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul li{margin-bottom:0}</style><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1236075235">.mw-parser-output .navbox{box-sizing:border-box;border:1px solid #a2a9b1;width:100%;clear:both;font-size:88%;text-align:center;padding:1px;margin:1em auto 0}.mw-parser-output .navbox .navbox{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .navbox+.navbox,.mw-parser-output .navbox+.navbox-styles+.navbox{margin-top:-1px}.mw-parser-output .navbox-inner,.mw-parser-output .navbox-subgroup{width:100%}.mw-parser-output .navbox-group,.mw-parser-output .navbox-title,.mw-parser-output .navbox-abovebelow{padding:0.25em 1em;line-height:1.5em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .navbox-group{white-space:nowrap;text-align:right}.mw-parser-output .navbox,.mw-parser-output .navbox-subgroup{background-color:#fdfdfd}.mw-parser-output .navbox-list{line-height:1.5em;border-color:#fdfdfd}.mw-parser-output .navbox-list-with-group{text-align:left;border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid}.mw-parser-output tr+tr>.navbox-abovebelow,.mw-parser-output tr+tr>.navbox-group,.mw-parser-output tr+tr>.navbox-image,.mw-parser-output tr+tr>.navbox-list{border-top:2px solid #fdfdfd}.mw-parser-output .navbox-title{background-color:#ccf}.mw-parser-output .navbox-abovebelow,.mw-parser-output .navbox-group,.mw-parser-output .navbox-subgroup .navbox-title{background-color:#ddf}.mw-parser-output .navbox-subgroup .navbox-group,.mw-parser-output .navbox-subgroup .navbox-abovebelow{background-color:#e6e6ff}.mw-parser-output .navbox-even{background-color:#f7f7f7}.mw-parser-output .navbox-odd{background-color:transparent}.mw-parser-output .navbox .hlist td dl,.mw-parser-output .navbox .hlist td ol,.mw-parser-output .navbox .hlist td ul,.mw-parser-output .navbox td.hlist dl,.mw-parser-output .navbox td.hlist ol,.mw-parser-output .navbox td.hlist ul{padding:0.125em 0}.mw-parser-output .navbox .navbar{display:block;font-size:100%}.mw-parser-output .navbox-title .navbar{float:left;text-align:left;margin-right:0.5em}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output .navbox-image img{max-width:none!important}@media print{body.ns-0 .mw-parser-output .navbox{display:none!important}}</style></div><div role="navigation" class="navbox" aria-labelledby="National_Football_League" style="padding:3px"><table class="nowraplinks mw-collapsible autocollapse navbox-inner" style="border-spacing:0;background:transparent;color:inherit"><tbody><tr><th scope="col" class="navbox-title" colspan="2"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1129693374"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239400231">.mw-parser-output .navbar{display:inline;font-size:88%;font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .navbar-collapse{float:left;text-align:left}.mw-parser-output .navbar-boxtext{word-spacing:0}.mw-parser-output .navbar ul{display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;line-height:inherit}.mw-parser-output .navbar-brackets::before{margin-right:-0.125em;content:"[ "}.mw-parser-output .navbar-brackets::after{margin-left:-0.125em;content:" ]"}.mw-parser-output .navbar li{word-spacing:-0.125em}.mw-parser-output .navbar a>span,.mw-parser-output .navbar a>abbr{text-decoration:inherit}.mw-parser-output .navbar-mini abbr{font-variant:small-caps;border-bottom:none;text-decoration:none;cursor:inherit}.mw-parser-output .navbar-ct-full{font-size:114%;margin:0 7em}.mw-parser-output .navbar-ct-mini{font-size:114%;margin:0 4em}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .navbar li a abbr{color:var(--color-base)!important}@media(prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .navbar li a abbr{color:var(--color-base)!important}}@media print{.mw-parser-output .navbar{display:none!important}}</style><div class="navbar plainlinks hlist navbar-mini"><ul><li class="nv-view"><a href="/wiki/Template:National_Football_League" title="Template:National Football League"><abbr title="View this template">v</abbr></a></li><li class="nv-talk"><a href="/wiki/Template_talk:National_Football_League" title="Template talk:National Football League"><abbr title="Discuss this template">t</abbr></a></li><li class="nv-edit"><a href="/wiki/Special:EditPage/Template:National_Football_League" title="Special:EditPage/Template:National Football League"><abbr title="Edit this template">e</abbr></a></li></ul></div><div id="National_Football_League" style="font-size:114%;margin:0 4em"><a href="/wiki/National_Football_League" title="National Football League">National Football League</a></div></th></tr><tr><td class="navbox-abovebelow" colspan="2"><div><a href="/wiki/2024_NFL_season" title="2024 NFL season">2024</a> season</div></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="navbox-list navbox-odd plainlist" style="width:100%;padding:0;background:transparent;color:inherit;"><div style="padding:0px"><table class="navbox-columns-table" style="border-spacing: 0px; text-align:left;width:auto; margin-left:auto; margin-right:auto;"><tbody><tr style="vertical-align:top"></tr></tbody></table></div></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="navbox-list navbox-odd plainlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"></div><table class="nowraplinks navbox-subgroup" style="border-spacing:0"><tbody><tr><td class="navbox-abovebelow" colspan="2" style="background-color:#FFA7A7 !important;"><div id="American_Football_Conference"><b><a href="/wiki/American_Football_Conference" title="American Football Conference">American Football Conference</a></b></div></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="navbox-list navbox-even" style="width:100%;padding:0;background:transparent;color:inherit;"><div style="padding:0px"><table class="navbox-columns-table" style="border-spacing: 0px; text-align:left;width:100%;"><tbody><tr><td class="navbox-abovebelow" style="font-weight:bold;background-color:#FFA7A7 !important;"><a href="/wiki/AFC_East" title="AFC East">East</a></td><td class="navbox-abovebelow" style="border-left:2px solid #fdfdfd;font-weight:bold;background-color:#FFA7A7 !important;"><a href="/wiki/AFC_North" title="AFC North">North</a></td><td class="navbox-abovebelow" style="border-left:2px solid #fdfdfd;font-weight:bold;background-color:#FFA7A7 !important;"><a href="/wiki/AFC_South" title="AFC South">South</a></td><td class="navbox-abovebelow" style="border-left:2px solid #fdfdfd;font-weight:bold;background-color:#FFA7A7 !important;"><a href="/wiki/AFC_West" title="AFC West">West</a></td></tr><tr style="vertical-align:top"><td class="navbox-list" style="padding:0px;background-color:#FFCCCC; text-align:center !important;width:25%;"><div> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Buffalo_Bills" title="Buffalo Bills">Buffalo Bills</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Miami_Dolphins" title="Miami Dolphins">Miami Dolphins</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/New_England_Patriots" title="New England Patriots">New England Patriots</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/New_York_Jets" title="New York Jets">New York Jets</a></li></ul> </div></td><td class="navbox-list" style="border-left:2px solid #fdfdfd;padding:0px;background-color:#FFCCCC; text-align:center !important;width:25%;"><div> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Baltimore_Ravens" title="Baltimore Ravens">Baltimore Ravens</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Cincinnati_Bengals" title="Cincinnati Bengals">Cincinnati Bengals</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Cleveland_Browns" title="Cleveland Browns">Cleveland Browns</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Pittsburgh_Steelers" title="Pittsburgh Steelers">Pittsburgh Steelers</a></li></ul> </div></td><td class="navbox-list" style="border-left:2px solid #fdfdfd;padding:0px;background-color:#FFCCCC; text-align:center !important;width:25%;"><div> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Houston_Texans" title="Houston Texans">Houston Texans</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Indianapolis_Colts" title="Indianapolis Colts">Indianapolis Colts</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Jacksonville_Jaguars" title="Jacksonville Jaguars">Jacksonville Jaguars</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Tennessee_Titans" title="Tennessee Titans">Tennessee Titans</a></li></ul> </div></td><td class="navbox-list" style="border-left:2px solid #fdfdfd;padding:0px;background-color:#FFCCCC; text-align:center !important;width:25%;"><div> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Denver_Broncos" title="Denver Broncos">Denver Broncos</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Kansas_City_Chiefs" title="Kansas City Chiefs">Kansas City Chiefs</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Las_Vegas_Raiders" title="Las Vegas Raiders">Las Vegas Raiders</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Los_Angeles_Chargers" title="Los Angeles Chargers">Los Angeles Chargers</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr></tbody></table></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div></div></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="navbox-list navbox-odd plainlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"></div><table class="nowraplinks navbox-subgroup" style="border-spacing:0"><tbody><tr><td class="navbox-abovebelow" colspan="2" style="background-color:#B7D0FF !important;"><div id="National_Football_Conference"><b><a href="/wiki/National_Football_Conference" title="National Football Conference">National Football Conference</a></b></div></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="navbox-list navbox-odd" style="width:100%;padding:0;background:transparent;color:inherit;"><div style="padding:0px"><table class="navbox-columns-table" style="border-spacing: 0px; text-align:left;width:100%;"><tbody><tr><td class="navbox-abovebelow" style="font-weight:bold;background-color:#B7D0FF !important;"><a href="/wiki/NFC_East" title="NFC East">East</a></td><td class="navbox-abovebelow" style="border-left:2px solid #fdfdfd;font-weight:bold;background-color:#B7D0FF !important;"><a href="/wiki/NFC_North" title="NFC North">North</a></td><td class="navbox-abovebelow" style="border-left:2px solid #fdfdfd;font-weight:bold;background-color:#B7D0FF !important;"><a href="/wiki/NFC_South" title="NFC South">South</a></td><td class="navbox-abovebelow" style="border-left:2px solid #fdfdfd;font-weight:bold;background-color:#B7D0FF !important;"><a href="/wiki/NFC_West" title="NFC West">West</a></td></tr><tr style="vertical-align:top"><td class="navbox-list" style="padding:0px;background-color:#D0E7FF; text-align:center !important;width:25%;"><div> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Dallas_Cowboys" title="Dallas Cowboys">Dallas Cowboys</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/New_York_Giants" title="New York Giants">New York Giants</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Philadelphia_Eagles" title="Philadelphia Eagles">Philadelphia Eagles</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Washington_Commanders" title="Washington Commanders">Washington Commanders</a></li></ul> </div></td><td class="navbox-list" style="border-left:2px solid #fdfdfd;padding:0px;background-color:#D0E7FF; text-align:center !important;width:25%;"><div> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Chicago_Bears" title="Chicago Bears">Chicago Bears</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Detroit_Lions" title="Detroit Lions">Detroit Lions</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers" title="Green Bay Packers">Green Bay Packers</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Minnesota_Vikings" title="Minnesota Vikings">Minnesota Vikings</a></li></ul> </div></td><td class="navbox-list" style="border-left:2px solid #fdfdfd;padding:0px;background-color:#D0E7FF; text-align:center !important;width:25%;"><div> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Atlanta_Falcons" title="Atlanta Falcons">Atlanta Falcons</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Carolina_Panthers" title="Carolina Panthers">Carolina Panthers</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/New_Orleans_Saints" title="New Orleans Saints">New Orleans Saints</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Tampa_Bay_Buccaneers" title="Tampa Bay Buccaneers">Tampa Bay Buccaneers</a></li></ul> </div></td><td class="navbox-list" style="border-left:2px solid #fdfdfd;padding:0px;background-color:#D0E7FF; text-align:center !important;width:25%;"><div> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Arizona_Cardinals" title="Arizona Cardinals">Arizona Cardinals</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Los_Angeles_Rams" title="Los Angeles Rams">Los Angeles Rams</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/San_Francisco_49ers" title="San Francisco 49ers">San Francisco 49ers</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Seattle_Seahawks" title="Seattle Seahawks">Seattle Seahawks</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr></tbody></table></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div></div></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="navbox-list navbox-odd plainlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"></div><table class="nowraplinks navbox-subgroup" style="border-spacing:0"><tbody><tr><th scope="row" class="navbox-group" style="width:1%">Seasons</th><td class="navbox-list-with-group navbox-list navbox-even hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_seasons" title="List of NFL seasons">Seasons</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Lists_of_NFL_team_seasons" title="Lists of NFL team seasons">by team</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_preseason" title="NFL preseason">Preseason</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Pro_Football_Hall_of_Fame_Game" title="Pro Football Hall of Fame Game">Hall of Fame Game</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/American_Bowl" title="American Bowl">American Bowl</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_regular_season" title="NFL regular season">Regular season</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/NFL_Kickoff_Game" title="NFL Kickoff Game">Kickoff game</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Monday_Night_Football" title="Monday Night Football">Monday Night Football</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_on_Thanksgiving_Day" title="NFL on Thanksgiving Day">Thanksgiving games</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_on_Christmas_Day" title="NFL on Christmas Day">Christmas games</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_playoffs" title="NFL playoffs">Playoffs</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_playoff_games" title="List of NFL playoff games">List of games</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_franchise_post-season_streaks" title="List of NFL franchise post-season streaks">streaks</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_franchise_post-season_droughts" title="List of NFL franchise post-season droughts">droughts</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/AFC_Championship_Game" title="AFC Championship Game">AFC Championship</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFC_Championship_Game" title="NFC Championship Game">NFC Championship</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Super_Bowl" title="Super Bowl">Super Bowl</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_champions" title="List of Super Bowl champions">champions</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_starting_quarterbacks" title="List of Super Bowl starting quarterbacks">quarterbacks</a></li></ul></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Pro_Bowl" title="Pro Bowl">Pro Bowl</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr><tr><th scope="row" class="navbox-group" style="width:1%">History</th><td class="navbox-list-with-group navbox-list navbox-odd hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/History_of_the_National_Football_League" title="History of the National Football League">League history</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Commissioner_of_the_NFL" class="mw-redirect" title="Commissioner of the NFL">Executive history</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/History_of_the_NFL_championship" title="History of the NFL championship">Championship history</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Timeline_of_the_National_Football_League" title="Timeline of the National Football League">Timeline</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/List_of_defunct_NFL_franchises" title="List of defunct NFL franchises">Defunct franchises</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_franchise_moves_and_mergers" title="NFL franchise moves and mergers">moves and mergers</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/History_of_the_NFL_in_Los_Angeles" title="History of the NFL in Los Angeles">NFL in Los Angeles</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Eastern_and_Western_Conferences_(NFL)_1933%E2%80%931969" title="Eastern and Western Conferences (NFL) 1933–1969">Eastern and Western Conferences</a> (1933–1969) <ul><li><a href="/wiki/NFL_Century_Division" title="NFL Century Division">Century Division</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/American_Football_League" title="American Football League">American Football League</a> (1960–1969) <ul><li><a href="/wiki/American_Football_League_playoffs" title="American Football League playoffs">Playoffs</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/AFL%E2%80%93NFL_merger" title="AFL–NFL merger">Merger</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_champions_(1920%E2%80%931969)" title="List of NFL champions (1920–1969)">NFL Championship (1920–1969)</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Playoff_Bowl" title="Playoff Bowl">Playoff Bowl</a></li> <li>NFL records <ul><li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_individual_records" title="List of NFL individual records">Individual</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_team_records" title="List of NFL team records">team</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_records" title="List of Super Bowl records">Super Bowl</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_all-time_NFL_win%E2%80%93loss_records" title="List of all-time NFL win–loss records">all time win–loss</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_last_undefeated_NFL_teams_by_season" title="List of last undefeated NFL teams by season">last undefeated</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_tied_games" title="List of NFL tied games">Tied games</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_canceled_and_rescheduled_NFL_games" title="List of canceled and rescheduled NFL games">Canceled games</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_nicknamed_NFL_games_and_plays" title="List of nicknamed NFL games and plays">Nicknamed games and plays</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_controversies" title="NFL controversies">Controversies</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr><tr><th scope="row" class="navbox-group" style="width:1%"><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_games_played_outside_the_United_States" title="List of NFL games played outside the United States">International</a></th><td class="navbox-list-with-group navbox-list navbox-even hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/NFL_International_Series" title="NFL International Series">International Series</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Potential_London_NFL_franchise" title="Potential London NFL franchise">London</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_in_Toronto" title="NFL in Toronto">Toronto</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Bills_Toronto_Series" title="Bills Toronto Series">Bills Series</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_Europe" title="NFL Europe">NFL Europe</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_players_born_outside_the_United_States" title="List of NFL players born outside the United States">Non-American players</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/International_Player_Pathway" title="International Player Pathway">International Player Pathway</a></li></ul></li></ul> </div></td></tr><tr><th scope="row" class="navbox-group" style="width:1%">Business</th><td class="navbox-list-with-group navbox-list navbox-odd hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/List_of_current_NFL_franchise_owners" title="List of current NFL franchise owners">Owners</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_Properties" title="NFL Properties">Properties</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_Management_Council" title="NFL Management Council">Management Council</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_competition_committee" title="NFL competition committee">Competition Committee</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/National_Football_League_Players_Association" title="National Football League Players Association">NFL Players Association</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/NFL_collective_bargaining_agreement" title="NFL collective bargaining agreement">Collective bargaining agreement</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_Players_Inc." title="NFL Players Inc.">NFL Players Inc.</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/National_Football_League_Referees_Association" title="National Football League Referees Association">NFL Referees Association</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_lockout" title="NFL lockout">Lockouts</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Forbes_list_of_the_most_valuable_NFL_teams" title="Forbes list of the most valuable NFL teams">Valuations</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_on_American_television" title="NFL on American television">Television</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/NFL_Network" title="NFL Network">NFL Network</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_RedZone" title="NFL RedZone">NFL RedZone</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_Films" title="NFL Films">NFL Films</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_on_Canadian_television" title="NFL on Canadian television">In Canada</a></li></ul></li></ul> </div></td></tr><tr><th scope="row" class="navbox-group" style="width:1%">Related</th><td class="navbox-list-with-group navbox-list navbox-even hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_head_coaches" title="List of NFL head coaches">Head coaches</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/List_of_current_NFL_head_coaches" title="List of current NFL head coaches">current</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_head_coach_wins_leaders" title="List of NFL head coach wins leaders">wins leaders</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_head_coaches_by_playoff_record" title="List of NFL head coaches by playoff record">playoff record</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_starting_quarterbacks_in_the_NFL" title="List of starting quarterbacks in the NFL">Starting quarterbacks</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_officials" title="List of NFL officials">Officials</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_current_NFL_stadiums" title="List of current NFL stadiums">Stadiums</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Chronology_of_home_stadiums_for_current_NFL_teams" title="Chronology of home stadiums for current NFL teams">Chronology</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_awards" title="List of NFL awards">Awards</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/All-Pro" title="All-Pro">All-Pro</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Pro_Football_Hall_of_Fame" title="Pro Football Hall of Fame">Hall of Fame</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/List_of_Pro_Football_Hall_of_Fame_inductees" title="List of Pro Football Hall of Fame inductees">members</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_player_conduct_policy" title="NFL player conduct policy">Player conduct</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/List_of_suspensions_in_the_NFL" title="List of suspensions in the NFL">Suspensions</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_Scouting_Combine" title="NFL Scouting Combine">Combine</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_draft" title="NFL draft">Draft</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Training_camp_(NFL)" title="Training camp (NFL)">Training camp</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_Foundation" title="NFL Foundation">NFL Foundation</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_Alumni" title="NFL Alumni">NFL Alumni</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Next_Gen_Stats" title="Next Gen Stats">Next Gen Stats</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr><tr><th scope="row" class="navbox-group" style="width:1%">Culture</th><td class="navbox-list-with-group navbox-list navbox-odd hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_mascots" title="List of NFL mascots">Mascots</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_nicknames" title="List of NFL nicknames">Nicknames</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_uniform_numbers" title="NFL uniform numbers">Uniform numbers</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_Color_Rush" title="NFL Color Rush">Color Rush</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_rivalries" class="mw-redirect" title="NFL rivalries">Rivalries</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/NFL_Cheerleading" title="NFL Cheerleading">Cheerleading</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_organizational_conflicts_in_the_NFL" title="List of organizational conflicts in the NFL">Conflicts</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/List_of_NFL_retired_numbers" title="List of NFL retired numbers">Retired numbers</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr></tbody></table><div></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div> <p>The dots don't wrap correctly on the bottom rows when using the <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:%C2%B7" title="Template:·">·</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> template. What is going on here? <a href="/wiki/User:Psantora" title="User:Psantora">Paul</a><small><sup><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Psantora" title="Special:Contributions/Psantora">C</a></sup>/<sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Psantora" title="User talk:Psantora">T</a><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Psantora&action=edit&section=new">+</a></sub></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:28:00.000Z-Broken..." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:28:00.000Z-Broken..."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:28:00.000Z-Broken..."></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TKD-2007-08-14T06:52:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:28:00.000Z"></span>So it turns out that the nowrap style is not exactly equivalent to <code>&nbsp;</code>, in that all of the browsers that I've tried (IE7, Firefox, and Safari) do <i>not</i> honor a nowrap style for leading spaces! In the interests of restoring the expected behavior of not breaking before the dot, we will have to reinstate the explicit non-breaking space entity, although the idea of having the collapsible space after the dot should be fine. I will restore the non-breaking space for now, because the potential for incorrect usage with the leading space could spread and become harder to fix. Like it or not, the non-breaking space was there originally, and since the new behavior is not exactly equivalent, we need to revert until we can hash out a better alternative, if any. — <a href="/wiki/User:TKD" title="User:TKD">TKD</a>::<b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TKD" title="User talk:TKD">Talk</a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-TKD-2007-08-14T06:52:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TKD-2007-08-14T06:52:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:28:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TKD-2007-08-14T06:52:00.000Z-Psantora-2007-08-14T04:28:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-14T07:47:00.000Z-TKD-2007-08-14T06:52:00.000Z"></span>Ok, I have ran out of ideas to test. It seems TKD is right. Using a <code>&nbsp;</code> before the dot seems to be the best option. And as TKD noted in an edit summary, it now seems "safe to remove the nowrap". I just tested it in my own test cases too. And yes, the tests I have done confirms that the space after the last span tag still works fine. So the best code now seems to be the code that TKD just changed to, that is:</dd></dl></dd></dl> <pre><includeonly><span style="font-weight:bold;">&nbsp;·</span> </includeonly> </pre> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Actually, I have been playing with the thought for some hours now that it might be a good thing to not have a collapsible space before the dot. Since I noticed for the other similar templates ( <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Bullet" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Bullet">bullet</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> etc ) that now that it did not become visible for the editors that they had added spaces before the template they started doing it all over the place. Thus anyway adding the wrapping problem. So using the <code>&nbsp;</code> means their mistakes will be visible as double spaces before the dots.</dd> <dd>So I will add the <code>&nbsp;</code> to <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Bullet" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Bullet">bullet</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> too. But not sure if I should use it for <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Ndash" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Ndash">ndash</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> and <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Mdash" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Mdash">mdash</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> since many just use them as regular dashes, with one space on each side in their code. And the browsers actually to some extent do respect the nowrap, but only to some extent. (That is, they seem to be slightly more likely to line wrap some where else than in the nowrap protected area.)</dd> <dd>Ah, I hate browser bugs!</dd> <dd>--<a href="/wiki/User:Davidgothberg" title="User:Davidgothberg">David Göthberg</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-14T07:47:00.000Z-TKD-2007-08-14T06:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-14T07:47:00.000Z-TKD-2007-08-14T06:52:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Davidgothberg-2007-08-14T07:47:00.000Z-TKD-2007-08-14T06:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Instructions" data-mw-thread-id="h-Instructions-2008-03-07T03:01:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Instructions-2008-03-07T03:01:00.000Z"></span>Instructions<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Instructions-2008-03-07T03:01:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Instructions"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Davidgothberg-2008-03-07T03:01:00.000Z-Instructions"></span>Have changed slightly. Seems pointless to instruct people to use a trailing space which does nothing, and looks unbalanced in source. Changed it to "can" ... although seems almost not worth mentioning. <i><a href="/wiki/User:Rich_Farmbrough" title="User:Rich Farmbrough">Rich</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rich_Farmbrough" title="User talk:Rich Farmbrough">Farmbrough</a></i>, 19:05 <a href="/wiki/14_December" class="mw-redirect" title="14 December">14 December</a> <a href="/wiki/2007" title="2007">2007</a> (GMT). </p> <dl><dd>Actually, the trailing space is needed so the code can line wrap in the edit window. You know, not all Wikipedia editors have a 2000 pixel wide screen. So adding the trailing space is a good coding habit.</dd> <dd>--<a href="/wiki/User:Davidgothberg" title="User:Davidgothberg">David Göthberg</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Davidgothberg" title="User talk:Davidgothberg">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Davidgothberg-2008-03-07T03:01:00.000Z-Instructions" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Davidgothberg-2008-03-07T03:01:00.000Z-Instructions"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Davidgothberg-2008-03-07T03:01:00.000Z-Instructions"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Nowrap_how-to_guide" data-mw-thread-id="h-Nowrap_how-to_guide-2008-03-11T21:45:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Nowrap_how-to_guide-2008-03-11T21:45:00.000Z"></span>Nowrap how-to guide<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Nowrap_how-to_guide-2008-03-11T21:45:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Nowrap how-to guide"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Davidgothberg-2008-03-11T21:45:00.000Z-Nowrap_how-to_guide"></span>I first rough version of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Line_break_handling" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Line break handling">Wikipedia:Line break handling</a> is done. Its a how-to guide about how to handle word wraps (line breaks) at Wikipedia. It does have examples and explanations relevant to the usage of this <a href="/wiki/Template:%C2%B7" title="Template:·">{{·}}</a> template. Take a look and discuss this new how-to guide on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Line_break_handling" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia talk:Line break handling">its talk page</a>. </p><p>--<a href="/wiki/User:Davidgothberg" title="User:Davidgothberg">David Göthberg</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Davidgothberg" title="User talk:Davidgothberg">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Davidgothberg-2008-03-11T21:45:00.000Z-Nowrap_how-to_guide" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Davidgothberg-2008-03-11T21:45:00.000Z-Nowrap_how-to_guide"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Davidgothberg-2008-03-11T21:45:00.000Z-Nowrap_how-to_guide"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Character_vs_entity?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Character_vs_entity?-2008-05-24T03:20:00.000Z"><span id="Character_vs_entity.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Character_vs_entity?-2008-05-24T03:20:00.000Z"></span>Character vs entity?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Character_vs_entity?-2008-05-24T03:20:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Character vs entity?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Izno-2008-05-24T03:20:00.000Z-Character_vs_entity?"></span>Of using the character "·" as opposed to using the entity "& middot;"? --<a href="/wiki/User:Izno" title="User:Izno">Izno</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Izno" title="User talk:Izno">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Izno-2008-05-24T03:20:00.000Z-Character_vs_entity?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:20, 24 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Izno-2008-05-24T03:20:00.000Z-Character_vs_entity?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Izno-2008-05-24T03:20:00.000Z-Character_vs_entity?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Davidgothberg-2009-03-29T17:07:00.000Z-Izno-2008-05-24T03:20:00.000Z"></span>We use the character "·" instead of the HTML entity "&middot;" to save bandwidth, page rendering work and so our code becomes more readable. Many articles have several large navboxes with dotted lists, thus this dot can be used say a hundred times in such an article. So it saves page load time for users with slow connections and it saves bandwidth and CPU for the Wikipedia servers since it means less page data to process. The dot works fine in all browsers we know of, even <i>very</i> old ones. So there's really no reason to use the entity.</dd> <dd>--<a href="/wiki/User:Davidgothberg" title="User:Davidgothberg">David Göthberg</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Davidgothberg" title="User talk:Davidgothberg">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Davidgothberg-2009-03-29T17:07:00.000Z-Izno-2008-05-24T03:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:07, 29 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Davidgothberg-2009-03-29T17:07:00.000Z-Izno-2008-05-24T03:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Davidgothberg-2009-03-29T17:07:00.000Z-Izno-2008-05-24T03:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Why?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Why?-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z"><span id="Why.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Why?-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z"></span>Why?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Why?-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: Why?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stifle-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z-Why?"></span>Why does this page exist? It seems like a completely pointless template call when you could just type the dot. <a href="/wiki/User:Stifle" title="User:Stifle">Stifle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stifle/wizard" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Stifle/wizard">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Stifle-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z-Why?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stifle-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z-Why?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stifle-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z-Why?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-CBM-2008-10-23T12:34:00.000Z-Stifle-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z"></span>The real purpose of the template is the nbsp, not the dot. The idea (as I understand it) is to make sure that line wraps occur only after dots, not before them. So typing just a dot would not achieve that, and typing &nbsp;'''·''' is longer than typing {{·}}. — Carl <small>(<a href="/wiki/User:CBM" class="mw-redirect" title="User:CBM">CBM</a> · <a href="/wiki/User_talk:CBM" title="User talk:CBM">talk</a>)</small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-CBM-2008-10-23T12:34:00.000Z-Stifle-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-CBM-2008-10-23T12:34:00.000Z-Stifle-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-CBM-2008-10-23T12:34:00.000Z-Stifle-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Davidgothberg-2009-03-29T17:27:00.000Z-CBM-2008-10-23T12:34:00.000Z"></span>Stifle: It's not just a dot, its a <b>bold</b> dot, since the normal dot is too small. And it has a tweak that makes the bolding work better under some very special circumstances. And as Carl explained, it has a <code>&nbsp;</code> before the dot to handle the line wrapping nicely. So it has three extra features that a simple dot doesn't have.</dd> <dd>Try typing <code>&nbsp;'''·''' </code> and <code>{{·}}</code> and see which one you find easier to use. Or rather, since we can't type the dots, you have to cut and paste it. But cutting and pasting a lot of & and ' is more error prone, since we humans are better at seeing if we get the right number of { and }. And even if you use <code>&nbsp;'''·''' </code> then you don't have the special tweak that fixes the bolding in some circumstances.</dd> <dd>--<a href="/wiki/User:Davidgothberg" title="User:Davidgothberg">David Göthberg</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Davidgothberg" title="User talk:Davidgothberg">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Davidgothberg-2009-03-29T17:27:00.000Z-CBM-2008-10-23T12:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:27, 29 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Davidgothberg-2009-03-29T17:27:00.000Z-CBM-2008-10-23T12:34:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Davidgothberg-2009-03-29T17:27:00.000Z-CBM-2008-10-23T12:34:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ptsl-2010-10-08T08:57:00.000Z-Stifle-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z"></span>Hi people, as a newbie to Wikipedia I've wondered what was the real meaning of this template, when one can easily type just the dot. My suggestion is to add the above explanation to the documentation, probably at the very beginning. I can do it if people agree. --<a href="/wiki/User:Ptsl" title="User:Ptsl">Ptsl</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ptsl" title="User talk:Ptsl">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Ptsl-2010-10-08T08:57:00.000Z-Stifle-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ptsl-2010-10-08T08:57:00.000Z-Stifle-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ptsl-2010-10-08T08:57:00.000Z-Stifle-2008-10-23T09:47:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="The_character_is_hard_to_type" data-mw-thread-id="h-The_character_is_hard_to_type-2009-05-09T15:44:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-The_character_is_hard_to_type-2009-05-09T15:44:00.000Z"></span>The character is hard to type<span data-mw-comment-end="h-The_character_is_hard_to_type-2009-05-09T15:44:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: The character is hard to type"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><code><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Digwuren-2009-05-09T15:44:00.000Z-The_character_is_hard_to_type"></span>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Editprotected" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Editprotected">editprotected</a>}}</code> The character is hard to type. Accordingly, the intuitive and easy-to-type <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:," class="mw-redirect" title="Template:,">,</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> is an alias of <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:%C2%B7" title="Template:·">·</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>. Unfortunately, the documentation makes no mention of it. Could an administrator add this bit of knowledge to the documentation? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Digwuren&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Digwuren (page does not exist)">Διγουρεν</a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Digwuren" title="User talk:Digwuren">Εμπρος!</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Digwuren-2009-05-09T15:44:00.000Z-The_character_is_hard_to_type" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:44, 9 May 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Digwuren-2009-05-09T15:44:00.000Z-The_character_is_hard_to_type"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Digwuren-2009-05-09T15:44:00.000Z-The_character_is_hard_to_type"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MSGJ-2009-05-09T18:36:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-05-09T15:44:00.000Z"></span>Good call. Happily, the documentation is unprotected and can be found at <a href="/wiki/Template:%C2%B7/doc" title="Template:·/doc">Template:·/doc</a>. Please go ahead :) — Martin <small>(<a href="/wiki/User:MSGJ" title="User:MSGJ">MSGJ</a> · <a href="/wiki/User_talk:MSGJ" title="User talk:MSGJ">talk</a>)</small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-MSGJ-2009-05-09T18:36:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-05-09T15:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:36, 9 May 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MSGJ-2009-05-09T18:36:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-05-09T15:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MSGJ-2009-05-09T18:36:00.000Z-Digwuren-2009-05-09T15:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Span?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Span?-2009-06-11T23:26:00.000Z"><span id="Span.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Span?-2009-06-11T23:26:00.000Z"></span>Span?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Span?-2009-06-11T23:26:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: Span?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dragons_flight-2009-06-11T23:26:00.000Z-Span?"></span>Is there a reason that this uses <span style="font-weight:bold;"> rather than say <b>? <a href="/wiki/User:Dragons_flight" title="User:Dragons flight">Dragons flight</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dragons_flight" title="User talk:Dragons flight">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Dragons_flight-2009-06-11T23:26:00.000Z-Span?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dragons_flight-2009-06-11T23:26:00.000Z-Span?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dragons_flight-2009-06-11T23:26:00.000Z-Span?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GreenReaper-2010-02-10T21:05:00.000Z-Dragons_flight-2009-06-11T23:26:00.000Z"></span>Without the white-space:nowrap; there doesn't appear to be a point for it, and it's a waste of space. 40 characters vs. 7 . . . even after gzip you can save ~9 bytes per article, and a <i>lot</i> of articles use this. <a href="/wiki/User:GreenReaper" title="User:GreenReaper">GreenReaper</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GreenReaper" title="User talk:GreenReaper">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-GreenReaper-2010-02-10T21:05:00.000Z-Dragons_flight-2009-06-11T23:26:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:05, 10 February 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GreenReaper-2010-02-10T21:05:00.000Z-Dragons_flight-2009-06-11T23:26:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GreenReaper-2010-02-10T21:05:00.000Z-Dragons_flight-2009-06-11T23:26:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Davidgothberg-2010-02-11T04:00:00.000Z-GreenReaper-2010-02-10T21:05:00.000Z"></span>It is 2.5 years since I worked with this template and the related templates, but if I remember right:</dd> <dd>We need the span to work around a page-rendering bug. MediaWiki internally converts <code><b></b></code> and <code>''' '''</code> to <span> tags and then convert them back to <code><b></b></code>. In doing so it sometimes mixes the temporary span up with other surrounding spans, which causes another end </span> to be converted "back" to the <code></b></code>, which can make whole sentences bold or make surrounding italic text end prematurely. (Wikimarkup for italic text is also internally converted to a span and then to <code><i></i></code>.)</dd> <dd>Using <code><span style="font-weight:bold;"></span></code> directly caused less problems. Of course, the MediaWiki page rendering engine is updated every now and then, so the bug might have been fixed. But right now I can't find my old test-examples that show the bug so I can't check if the bug is still there.</dd> <dd>--<a href="/wiki/User:Davidgothberg" title="User:Davidgothberg">David Göthberg</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Davidgothberg" title="User talk:Davidgothberg">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Davidgothberg-2010-02-11T04:00:00.000Z-GreenReaper-2010-02-10T21:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:00, 11 February 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Davidgothberg-2010-02-11T04:00:00.000Z-GreenReaper-2010-02-10T21:05:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Davidgothberg-2010-02-11T04:00:00.000Z-GreenReaper-2010-02-10T21:05:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/4175335"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-A._di_M.-2010-03-27T10:58:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2010-02-11T04:00:00.000Z"></span>Duke of York gambit</a>, anyone? :-) ― <span style="color: #4B61D1; font-family: monospace; border: thin solid"><a href="/wiki/User:A._di_M." title="User:A. di M."><span style="background: #084">_</span><span style="background: white">_</span><span style="background: #DD2222">_</span></a>A._di_M.</span> (formerly Army1987) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-A._di_M.-2010-03-27T10:58:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2010-02-11T04:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-A._di_M.-2010-03-27T10:58:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2010-02-11T04:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-A._di_M.-2010-03-27T10:58:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2010-02-11T04:00:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Edokter-2010-12-26T16:01:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2010-02-11T04:00:00.000Z"></span>Has there ever been a bug filed for this? I'd really like to know. <b> appears to be cancelled out when already surrounded by bold text that is bolded with either <b> or '''. See test below. <span style="font-family:verdana"> — <a href="/wiki/User:Edokter" title="User:Edokter"><b style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</b></a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Edokter" title="User talk:Edokter"><span style="color:#080">Talk</span></a> — </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Edokter-2010-12-26T16:01:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2010-02-11T04:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:01, 26 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Edokter-2010-12-26T16:01:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2010-02-11T04:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Edokter-2010-12-26T16:01:00.000Z-Davidgothberg-2010-02-11T04:00:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Bolding_embedding_test" data-mw-thread-id="h-Bolding_embedding_test-Span?-2010-12-31T00:29:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Bolding_embedding_test-Span?-2010-12-31T00:29:00.000Z"></span>Bolding embedding test<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Bolding_embedding_test-Span?-2010-12-31T00:29:00.000Z"></span></h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=14" title="Edit section: Bolding embedding test"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <dl><dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Edokter-2010-12-31T00:29:00.000Z-Bolding_embedding_test"></span>Bold in wikimarkup</b></dd> <dd><b>Bold in HTML</b></dd> <dd><b>Bold in wikimarkup with <b>(embedded bold)</b> in HTML</b></dd> <dd><b>Bold in HTML with <b>(embedded bold)</b> in wikimarkup</b></dd> <dd><b>Bold in wikimarkup with </b>(embedded bold)<b> in wikimarkup</b> (un-bolds as expected)</dd> <dd><b>Bold in HTML with <b>(embedded bold)</b> in HTML</b></dd> <dd><span style="font-weight:bold;">Bold in span with <b>(embedded bold)</b> in wikimarkup</span> (adds <b> tags)</dd> <dd><span style="font-weight:bold;">Bold in span with <b>(embedded bold)</b> in HTML</span> (adds <b> tags)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><b><a href="/wiki/Link" class="mw-disambig" title="Link">Link</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Link" class="mw-disambig" title="Link">Link</a> <b>·</b> <a href="/wiki/Link" class="mw-disambig" title="Link">Link</a></b></dd> <dd><b>Bold in wikimarkup with <b>(embedded bold)</b> in HTML</b></dd> <dd><b>Bold in wikimarkup with <b>(embedded bold preceded by &nbsp;)</b> in HTML</b></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>It turns out that the <code>&nbsp;</code> is breaking the embedded bolding mechanism. I have no idea why. I've filed a <a href="https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26516" class="extiw" title="bugzilla:26516">bugreport</a>. <span style="font-family:verdana"> — <a href="/wiki/User:Edokter" title="User:Edokter"><b style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</b></a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Edokter" title="User talk:Edokter"><span style="color:#080">Talk</span></a> — </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Edokter-2010-12-31T00:29:00.000Z-Bolding_embedding_test" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:29, 31 December 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Edokter-2010-12-31T00:29:00.000Z-Bolding_embedding_test"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Edokter-2010-12-31T00:29:00.000Z-Bolding_embedding_test"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Edit_request_from_118.100.126.140,_7_August_2011" data-mw-thread-id="h-Edit_request_from_118.100.126.140,_7_August_2011-2011-08-07T03:53:00.000Z"><span id="Edit_request_from_118.100.126.140.2C_7_August_2011"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Edit_request_from_118.100.126.140,_7_August_2011-2011-08-07T03:53:00.000Z"></span>Edit request from 118.100.126.140, 7 August 2011<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Edit_request_from_118.100.126.140,_7_August_2011-2011-08-07T03:53:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=15" title="Edit section: Edit request from 118.100.126.140, 7 August 2011"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-118.100.126.140-2011-08-07T03:53:00.000Z-Edit_request_from_118.100.126.140,_7_August_2011"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox mbox-small tmbox-notice editrequest" role="presentation" data-origlevel="semi"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/30px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/45px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/60px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_requests" title="Wikipedia:Edit requests">edit request</a> has been answered. Set the <code style="white-space: nowrap;">|answered=</code> or <code style="white-space: nowrap;">|ans=</code> parameter to <b>no</b> to reactivate your request.</td></tr></tbody></table> <p><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/118.100.126.140" title="Special:Contributions/118.100.126.140">118.100.126.140</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:118.100.126.140&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:118.100.126.140 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-118.100.126.140-2011-08-07T03:53:00.000Z-Edit_request_from_118.100.126.140,_7_August_2011" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:53, 7 August 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-118.100.126.140-2011-08-07T03:53:00.000Z-Edit_request_from_118.100.126.140,_7_August_2011"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-118.100.126.140-2011-08-07T03:53:00.000Z-Edit_request_from_118.100.126.140,_7_August_2011"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Skier_Dude-2011-08-07T04:52:00.000Z-118.100.126.140-2011-08-07T03:53:00.000Z"></span><span class="nowrap"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/18px-X_mark.svg.png" decoding="async" width="18" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/27px-X_mark.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/36px-X_mark.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="525" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> <b>Not done</b></span> no request. <a href="/wiki/User:Skier_Dude" title="User:Skier Dude"><span style="color:ForestGreen">Skier Dude</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Skier_Dude" title="User talk:Skier Dude"><span style="color:SaddleBrown">talk</span></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Skier_Dude-2011-08-07T04:52:00.000Z-118.100.126.140-2011-08-07T03:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:52, 7 August 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Skier_Dude-2011-08-07T04:52:00.000Z-118.100.126.140-2011-08-07T03:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Skier_Dude-2011-08-07T04:52:00.000Z-118.100.126.140-2011-08-07T03:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Redirect_requested" data-mw-thread-id="h-Redirect_requested-2012-03-17T18:31:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Redirect_requested-2012-03-17T18:31:00.000Z"></span>Redirect requested<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Redirect_requested-2012-03-17T18:31:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=16" title="Edit section: Redirect requested"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Edokter-2012-03-17T18:31:00.000Z-Redirect_requested"></span>I would like to create a redirect to this template at "." so you can type {{.}} to make the bullet appear. I actually have a period on my keyboard, but I don't have this mid dot thing. However, when I enter Template:. in the search box, it doesn't let me create a page. Please help, thanks, <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/User:Dondegroovily" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dondegroovily">Dondegroovily</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondegroovily" title="User talk:Dondegroovily">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Dondegroovily" title="Special:Contributions/Dondegroovily">contribs</a>) 17:19, 17 March 2012‎ UTC</span></small> </p> <dl><dd>"." is an invalid character and may not be used in title. If you link to it straight (<a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:.">link</a>), you will see an error. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NCTR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NCTR">WP:NCTR</a> for more restrictions. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:Edokter" title="User:Edokter"><span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Edokter" title="User talk:Edokter"><span style="color:#080">talk</span></a>) — </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Edokter-2012-03-17T18:31:00.000Z-Redirect_requested" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:31, 17 March 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Edokter-2012-03-17T18:31:00.000Z-Redirect_requested"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Edokter-2012-03-17T18:31:00.000Z-Redirect_requested"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dondegroovily-2012-03-17T19:05:00.000Z-Edokter-2012-03-17T18:31:00.000Z"></span>And that's why we got <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Dot" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Dot">dot</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> <a href="/wiki/User:Dondegroovily" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Dondegroovily"><span style="color:red;"><b>D O N D E</b></span> <small>groovily</small></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dondegroovily" title="User talk:Dondegroovily"><span style="color:green;">Talk to me</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Dondegroovily-2012-03-17T19:05:00.000Z-Edokter-2012-03-17T18:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:05, 17 March 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dondegroovily-2012-03-17T19:05:00.000Z-Edokter-2012-03-17T18:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dondegroovily-2012-03-17T19:05:00.000Z-Edokter-2012-03-17T18:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Another_lunkheaded,_misnamed_template" data-mw-thread-id="h-Another_lunkheaded,_misnamed_template-2014-03-15T18:25:00.000Z"><span id="Another_lunkheaded.2C_misnamed_template"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Another_lunkheaded,_misnamed_template-2014-03-15T18:25:00.000Z"></span>Another lunkheaded, misnamed template<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Another_lunkheaded,_misnamed_template-2014-03-15T18:25:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=17" title="Edit section: Another lunkheaded, misnamed template"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-2014-03-15T18:25:00.000Z-Another_lunkheaded,_misnamed_template"></span>Who was stupid enough to create a template called <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Middot" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Middot">middot</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> which gives something other than a simple, single, lone middot? I guess we're stuck with it now though. Great going. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng" title="User:EEng">EEng</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng" title="User talk:EEng">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-EEng-2014-03-15T18:25:00.000Z-Another_lunkheaded,_misnamed_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:25, 15 March 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-2014-03-15T18:25:00.000Z-Another_lunkheaded,_misnamed_template"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-2014-03-15T18:25:00.000Z-Another_lunkheaded,_misnamed_template"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014" data-mw-thread-id="h-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014-2014-06-13T12:54:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014-2014-06-13T12:54:00.000Z"></span>Protected edit request on 13 June 2014<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014-2014-06-13T12:54:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:%C2%B7&action=edit&section=18" title="Edit section: Protected edit request on 13 June 2014"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T12:54:00.000Z-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox mbox-small tmbox-notice editrequest" role="presentation" data-origlevel="semi"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/30px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/45px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/60px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_requests" title="Wikipedia:Edit requests">edit request</a> to <a href="/wiki/Template:%C2%B7" title="Template:·">Template:·</a> and <a href="/wiki/Template:%E2%80%A2" title="Template:•">Template:•</a> has been answered. Set the <code style="white-space: nowrap;">|answered=</code> or <code style="white-space: nowrap;">|ans=</code> parameter to <b>no</b> to reactivate your request.</td></tr></tbody></table><p> Please replace: </p><div class="mw-highlight mw-highlight-lang-bibtex mw-content-ltr" dir="ltr"><pre><span></span><span class="c">&nbsp;<span style="font-weight:bold;">&middot;</span>&#32;</span> </pre></div><p> With: </p><div class="mw-highlight mw-highlight-lang-bibtex mw-content-ltr" dir="ltr"><pre><span></span><span class="c"><onlyinclude>&nbsp;'''·'''&#32;</onlyinclude></span> </pre></div><p> Since this template is often transcluded many times on one page, this 37 character change will significantly reduce post-expansion template inclusion size. Replacing the &#32; with just a " " (space) will reduce the size by four more characters giving a <a href="/wiki/Template:%C2%B7/testcases" title="Template:·/testcases">48.3% reduction in include size</a> and no negative effect. — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T12:54:00.000Z-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:54, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T12:54:00.000Z-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T12:54:00.000Z-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014"></span> </p><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T12:54:00.000Z"></span>Two things: <ol><li>Replacing the CSS with wiki markup risks unintentional 'unbolding' if a preceding item is missing any closing markup. Using <code class="nowrap" style=""><b>&middot;</b></code> instead will mitigate this (though User:Foxj claims this also breaks templates), though CSS is the preferred way for presentational markup.</li> <li>Replacing &#32; with a normal space will cause it to be stripped. We don't want that.</li></ol></dd> <dd><span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:Edokter" title="User:Edokter"><span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Edokter" title="User talk:Edokter"><span style="color:#080">talk</span></a>) — </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T12:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:23, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T12:54:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T12:54:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr._Stradivarius-2014-06-13T13:39:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Red_information_icon_with_gradient_background.svg/20px-Red_information_icon_with_gradient_background.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Red_information_icon_with_gradient_background.svg/30px-Red_information_icon_with_gradient_background.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Red_information_icon_with_gradient_background.svg/40px-Red_information_icon_with_gradient_background.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="62" data-file-height="62"/></span></span> <b>Not done for now:</b> I made the edit, but reverted after I saw Edokter's post here. Please reactivate this once there's a consensus on what change to make, if any. — <i><b><a href="/wiki/User:Mr._Stradivarius" title="User:Mr. Stradivarius"><span style="color: #194D00; font-family: Palatino, Times, serif">Mr. Stradivarius</span></a></b></i> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr._Stradivarius" title="User talk:Mr. Stradivarius">♪ talk ♪</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Mr._Stradivarius-2014-06-13T13:39:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:39, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr._Stradivarius-2014-06-13T13:39:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr._Stradivarius-2014-06-13T13:39:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/User:Edokter" title="User:Edokter"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:00:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z"></span>Edokter</a>, I see no stripping of the space, A{{·}}A{{·/sandbox}}A{{·}}A{{·/sandbox}}A{{·}}A{{·/sandbox}}A = A <b>·</b> A <b>·</b> A <b>·</b> A <b>·</b> A <b>·</b> A <b>·</b> A, they look identical. If there is no objection, I have no qualms about replacing the existing code with: <div class="mw-highlight mw-highlight-lang-bibtex mw-content-ltr" dir="ltr"><pre><span></span><span class="c"><onlyinclude>&nbsp;• </onlyinclude></span> </pre></div> The <code class="nowrap" style=""><onlyinclude>...</onlyinclude></code> tags (which apparently can't be seen using <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Syntaxhighlight" title="Template:Syntaxhighlight">Syntaxhighlight</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>, but are used in the sandbox) ensure that the space stays in there (and doesn't affect inclusion size) and prevents any unwanted linefeeds that may be elsewhere. — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:00:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:00, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:00:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:00:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:06:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z"></span>Is now a 54.1% improvement in Post-expand include size. — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:06:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:06, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:06:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:06:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Edokter-2014-06-13T14:22:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:06:00.000Z"></span>Perhaps not when used directly, but when this included in <i>another</i> template where it ends up in a parameter or parser function (which happens a lot), the space <i>will</i> be stripped. So yes, the &#32; must stay. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:Edokter" title="User:Edokter"><span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Edokter" title="User talk:Edokter"><span style="color:#080">talk</span></a>) — </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Edokter-2014-06-13T14:22:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:22, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Edokter-2014-06-13T14:22:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:06:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Edokter-2014-06-13T14:22:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:06:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T14:22:00.000Z"></span>I could see that playing out in my head... I have no problem with the &#32; staying, per my original request (which I added the &#32; as an afterthought.). So, would <div class="mw-highlight mw-highlight-lang-bibtex mw-content-ltr" dir="ltr"><pre><span></span><span class="c"><onlyinclude>&nbsp;<b>‧</b>&#32;</onlyinclude></span> </pre></div> which is still 46.1% improvement in Post-expand include size be acceptable to you? — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T14:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:27, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T14:22:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T14:22:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Edokter-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z"></span>It would, but beware of the 'unbolding' monster. See <a href="#Span?">#Span?</a> above. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:Edokter" title="User:Edokter"><span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Edokter" title="User talk:Edokter"><span style="color:#080">talk</span></a>) — </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Edokter-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:30, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Edokter-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Edokter-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T18:26:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z"></span>That's a simple fix...<div class="mw-highlight mw-highlight-lang-bibtex mw-content-ltr" dir="ltr"><pre><span></span><span class="c"><onlyinclude><b>&nbsp;‧</b>&#32;</onlyinclude></span> </pre></div>Will make it display correctly per this example: <b>Bold in wikimarkup with <b> (embedded bold preceded by &nbsp;)</b> in HTML</b>. As such, and since I see no other objections, I'm reactivating this request. — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T18:26:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:26, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T18:26:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T18:26:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Edokter-2014-06-13T18:56:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T18:26:00.000Z"></span>That results in a double space. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — <a href="/wiki/User:Edokter" title="User:Edokter"><span style="color:#008"><i>E</i>dokter</span></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Edokter" title="User talk:Edokter"><span style="color:#080">talk</span></a>) — </span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Edokter-2014-06-13T18:56:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T18:26:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:56, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Edokter-2014-06-13T18:56:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T18:26:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Edokter-2014-06-13T18:56:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T18:26:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T19:08:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T18:56:00.000Z"></span>It's suppose to... Show me an example of " &nbsp;" that doesn't result in a double space. — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T19:08:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T18:56:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:08, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T19:08:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T18:56:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T19:08:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T18:56:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:21:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z"></span>Since I just found we also have a <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:%E2%80%A2" title="Template:•">•</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>, which <div class="mw-highlight mw-highlight-lang-bibtex mw-content-ltr" dir="ltr"><pre><span></span><span class="c"><onlyinclude>&nbsp;• </onlyinclude></span> </pre></div> should go in, I'd suggest we use <div class="mw-highlight mw-highlight-lang-bibtex mw-content-ltr" dir="ltr"><pre><span></span><span class="c"><onlyinclude>&nbsp;<b>‧</b> </onlyinclude></span> </pre></div> which is still a 46.1% improvement in Post-expand include size. — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:21:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:21, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:21:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:21:00.000Z-Edokter-2014-06-13T13:23:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-2014-06-13T14:49:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:21:00.000Z"></span>And post-expand include size is the metric needing optimization because...? In the statistics linked it appears this change works a 5% <i>increase</i> in CPU usage. Is that the right tradeoff? <a href="/wiki/User:EEng" title="User:EEng">EEng</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng" title="User talk:EEng">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-EEng-2014-06-13T14:49:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:49, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-2014-06-13T14:49:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:21:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-2014-06-13T14:49:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T14:21:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T14:49:00.000Z"></span>Those values flex with general server usage and tolerance is about 50% ± — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T14:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:27, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T14:49:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T14:49:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-2014-06-13T17:09:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z"></span>I'm sorry, but you're saying CPU time varies with load? Really? Um... can you explain that? Anyway, why do we care about post-expand size? <a href="/wiki/User:EEng" title="User:EEng">EEng</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng" title="User talk:EEng">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-EEng-2014-06-13T17:09:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:09, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-2014-06-13T17:09:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-2014-06-13T17:09:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T15:27:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T17:09:00.000Z"></span>I can show that CPU and real times vary with load. I set the template to test the sandbox version of the page, and hit preload ten times recording the data each time and coming up with (.168, .176, .172, .12, .108, .164, .132, .132, .124, .18) for CPU (Ave: 0.1476) and (.136, .136, .128, .136, .196, .196, .14, .132, .136, .176) for real (Ave: 0.1512). Then I repeated the process with the template set to main (the live template) and came up with (.196, .2, .191, .14, .128, .186, .154, .152, .138, .206) for CPU (Ave: 0.1691) and (.155, .151, .144, .159, .217, .212, .163, .152, .157, .196) for real (Ave: 0.1706). Currently, based on these averages, the sandbox version is 12.7% faster on CPU usage, 11.4% faster on real time usage, uses 7.9% fewer visited nodes, uses 0.7% fewer generated nodes, and most importantly (as this is what is causing pages to get dumped into an error category and causing renderings to fail) has a Post-expand include size that is 46.1% smaller. This change would trim ~6,500 bytes off of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dashboard/Requests_for_comment" title="Wikipedia:Dashboard/Requests for comment">Wikipedia:Dashboard/Requests_for_comment</a> which may help prevent pages transcluding it from being dumped in <a href="/wiki/Category:Pages_where_template_include_size_is_exceeded" title="Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded">Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded</a>. — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T17:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:30, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T17:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T17:09:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-2014-06-13T18:02:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z"></span>May</i>? Can you point to a page with a rendering problem which would be fixed thereby? <a href="/wiki/User:EEng" title="User:EEng">EEng</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng" title="User talk:EEng">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-EEng-2014-06-13T18:02:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:02, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-2014-06-13T18:02:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-2014-06-13T18:02:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T17:30:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Technical_13/dashboard&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Technical 13/dashboard (page does not exist)"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T18:26:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T18:02:00.000Z"></span>User:Technical 13/dashboard</a> will have rendering problems when there is no AfC BLD running (and the number of pending submissions are closer to 2000—2500 than the 500 it is currently at) and this would <i>help</i> alleviate the problem. — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T18:26:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T18:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:26, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T18:26:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T18:02:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T18:26:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T18:02:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-2014-06-13T20:51:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T18:02:00.000Z"></span>Any pages affected other than your personal dashboard? <a href="/wiki/User:EEng" title="User:EEng">EEng</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng" title="User talk:EEng">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-EEng-2014-06-13T20:51:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T18:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:51, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-2014-06-13T20:51:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T18:02:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-2014-06-13T20:51:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T18:02:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T20:55:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T20:51:00.000Z"></span>I'm sure there are, but I'm not going to do a database dump to find them. Are you opposed to improving every aspect of this template? The current version is faster and smaller on every statistic that is reported. I don't understand why you are so concerned about making this template faster and smaller. Can you explain that? — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T20:55:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T20:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:55, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T20:55:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T20:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T20:55:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T20:51:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"><span style="display:block;width:16em;height:0.5em;border-bottom:1px solid #a2a9b1;border-right:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span><span style="display:block;width:16em;height:0.5em;border-left:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span></div> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Madhero88/OthersBM" title="User:Madhero88/OthersBM"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T21:29:00.000Z-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014"></span>User:Madhero88/OthersBM</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Millifolium/Sandbox" title="User:Millifolium/Sandbox">User:Millifolium/Sandbox</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Quisquillian/Sandbox&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Quisquillian/Sandbox (page does not exist)">User:Quisquillian/Sandbox</a> are currently in that error category and would benefit from this change. — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T21:29:00.000Z-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:29, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T21:29:00.000Z-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T21:29:00.000Z-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014"></span> </p><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><small><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-2014-06-13T22:17:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T21:29:00.000Z"></span>(<a href="/wiki/Help:Edit_conflict" title="Help:Edit conflict">edit conflict</a>)</small> All other things being equal, making things faster and smaller is fine. But all other things <i>aren't</i> equal -- there's a function risk here. As is abundantly clear from earlier interactions in this very thread, it's very hard to be sure that "trivial" changes to a high-visibility template won't break something. You seem to want to risk that in order to improve some numbers whose significance I don't think you understand -- if CPU times vary greatly from run to run then there are caching or other effects you're not taking into account, or there's something wrong with the performance instrumentation. On top of this, the profile for <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Technical_13/dashboard&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Technical 13/dashboard (page does not exist)">User:Technical 13/dashboard</a> reports <i>Post-expand include size 1174270/2048000 bytes</i>, so what's the size problem you're talking about? <a href="/wiki/User:EEng" title="User:EEng">EEng</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng" title="User talk:EEng">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-EEng-2014-06-13T22:17:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T21:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:17, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-2014-06-13T22:17:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T21:29:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-2014-06-13T22:17:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T21:29:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T22:44:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T22:17:00.000Z"></span>That is why things are tested out. I'm seeing no new technical challenges that would cause issues here, and I've addressed all of Edokter's issues above. The variance in the CPU run times is 1-2 tenths of a second. 2 tenths of a second is 200% of 1 tenth of a second, but not hardly anything to worry about (your body can't even process information that fast). So, currently, the post-expand include size is about 50% of capacity, and <a href="/wiki/Template:AFC_statistics" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:AFC statistics">Template:AFC statistics</a> is (122,749 bytes) [expands to 477,197 bytes] at the moment... Two weeks ago, it was peaking at (459,811 bytes) [expands to about 1,787,554 bytes]. That means that when no BLD is running at AfC, the current <i>Post-expand include size 1,174,270/2048000 bytes</i> becomes <i>Post-expand include size 2,961,824/2048000 bytes</i> (commas added by me for clarity) which sets this about 913,824 above the limit and dumps it into <a href="/wiki/Category:Pages_where_template_include_size_is_exceeded" title="Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded">Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded</a> just like <a href="/wiki/User:Madhero88/OthersBM" title="User:Madhero88/OthersBM">User:Madhero88/OthersBM</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Millifolium/Sandbox" title="User:Millifolium/Sandbox">User:Millifolium/Sandbox</a>, and <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Quisquillian/Sandbox&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Quisquillian/Sandbox (page does not exist)">User:Quisquillian/Sandbox</a> are. If I can get this template to trim 6-8K off of that, then I'm making "some" progress and it is helping. — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T22:44:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T22:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:44, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T22:44:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T22:17:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-13T22:44:00.000Z-EEng-2014-06-13T22:17:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-2014-06-14T00:40:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T22:44:00.000Z"></span>I don't even know what this "BLD" is you're talking about, sorry -- should I? The discussion above shows clearly that just because you "don't see any further technical challenges" doesn't mean there aren't any. Am I correct in understanding that you project this change will reduce the 913,824 figure by 6000-8000? Really? I'm sorry, but this seems like a classic preoccupation with some numbers which happen to be available -- <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_worry_about_performance" title="Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance">Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance</a>.</dd> <dd>I'd very much like to hear what other editors think about this. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng" title="User:EEng">EEng</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng" title="User talk:EEng">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-EEng-2014-06-14T00:40:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T22:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:40, 14 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-2014-06-14T00:40:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T22:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-2014-06-14T00:40:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-13T22:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"><span style="display:block;width:16em;height:0.5em;border-bottom:1px solid #a2a9b1;border-right:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span><span style="display:block;width:16em;height:0.5em;border-left:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span></div><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-14T02:21:00.000Z-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014"></span> You seem to be overlooking the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_worry_about_performance#Editors_still_have_a_role_to_play" title="Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance">Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance#Editors still have a role to play</a> clause. If pages are being put into <a href="/wiki/Category:Pages_where_template_include_size_is_exceeded" title="Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded">Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded</a> which is a category that <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">is populated automatically by the MediaWiki software. It contains pages which exceed one of the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_limits" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Template limits">template limits</a>, other than the limits on expensive parser functions and template argument size</q> more specifically, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_limits#Post-expand_include_size" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Template limits">Wikipedia:Template limits#Post-expand include size</a>. The most important factor about this is that <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">These pages should be simplified by removing or simplifying calls to templates, or they will not render properly</q>, which is what this edit request aims to do. A BLD is a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Backlog_elimination_drives" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Backlog elimination drives">]BackLog elimination Drive</a>. — <span class="nowrap">{{U|<a href="/wiki/User:Technical_13" title="User:Technical 13">Technical 13</a>}}</span> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Technical_13" title="Special:EmailUser/Technical 13">e</a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Technical_13" title="User talk:Technical 13">t</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Technical_13" title="Special:Contributions/Technical 13">c</a>)</sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-Technical_13-2014-06-14T02:21:00.000Z-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:21, 14 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Technical_13-2014-06-14T02:21:00.000Z-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Technical_13-2014-06-14T02:21:00.000Z-Protected_edit_request_on_13_June_2014"></span> </p><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-2014-06-14T14:37:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-14T02:21:00.000Z"></span>"Removing or simplifying calls to templates" means, to me, that maybe one dashboard shouldn't concatenate each and every "status" template from the entirety of Wikipedia, as yours seems to do. I'm still hoping others will weigh in. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng" title="User:EEng">EEng</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng" title="User talk:EEng">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:%C2%B7#c-EEng-2014-06-14T14:37:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-14T02:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:37, 14 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-2014-06-14T14:37:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-14T02:21:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-2014-06-14T14:37:00.000Z-Technical_13-2014-06-14T02:21:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:·&oldid=1115588443">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:·&oldid=1115588443</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks catlinks-allhidden" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-hidden-catlinks" class="mw-hidden-catlinks mw-hidden-cats-hidden">Hidden category: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Pages_using_navbox_columns_without_the_first_column" title="Category:Pages using navbox columns without the first column">Pages using navbox columns without the first column</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 12 October 2022, at 05:58<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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