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If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tree of Life">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Tree of Life</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Tree of Life</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">taxonomic articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-mid"><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_taxonomic_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance taxonomic articles">Mid</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Mid-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="The_Human_Blueprint" data-mw-thread-id="h-The_Human_Blueprint"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-The_Human_Blueprint"></span>The Human Blueprint<span data-mw-comment-end="h-The_Human_Blueprint"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Chronospecies&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: The Human Blueprint"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>There are countless implications of "The Human Blueprint" by Robert Shapiro. Shapiro traces genetic research from Watson and Crick in the 50's to complete decoding of the human genome, which ocurred several years before it had been projected. Shapiro attributes the early decoding to the internet which developed in incredible parallel with the Human Genome Project. The H.G.P permitted world-wide work-groups to decode sections as long as everyone agreed to share findings. On a recent NOVA telecast we were told about language and genetic research which drastically re-mapped the route by which Homo Sapiens populated the planet. <a href="/w/index.php?title=W8IMP&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="W8IMP (page does not exist)">J.Schultz,RN,BA, Detroit</a> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Another_example:_1918_flu_virus?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Another_example:_1918_flu_virus?-2005-11-07T02:16:00.000Z"><span id="Another_example:_1918_flu_virus.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Another_example:_1918_flu_virus?-2005-11-07T02:16:00.000Z"></span>Another example: 1918 flu virus?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Another_example:_1918_flu_virus?-2005-11-07T02:16:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Chronospecies&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Another example: 1918 flu virus?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hillman-2005-11-07T02:16:00.000Z-Another_example:_1918_flu_virus?"></span>Did you really mean to write <i>another example is the recent genetic reproduction of the pathogen responsible for the 1918 world-wide influenza pandemic</i>? Surely this concept only applies to sexually reproducing organisms?---<a href="/wiki/User:Hillman" title="User:Hillman">CH </a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hillman" title="User talk:Hillman">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-Hillman-2005-11-07T02:16:00.000Z-Another_example:_1918_flu_virus?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hillman-2005-11-07T02:16:00.000Z-Another_example:_1918_flu_virus?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hillman-2005-11-07T02:16:00.000Z-Another_example:_1918_flu_virus?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Sources" data-mw-thread-id="h-Sources-2006-03-20T23:14:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Sources-2006-03-20T23:14:00.000Z"></span>Sources<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Sources-2006-03-20T23:14:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Chronospecies&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Sources"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JzG-2006-03-20T23:14:00.000Z-Sources"></span>Some sources would help here, there being under a thousand ghits for this term. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:JzG" title="User talk:JzG">Just zis <span style="border: 1px; border-style:solid; padding:0px 2px 2px 2px; color:white; background-color:darkblue; font-weight:bold">Guy</span> you know?</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-JzG-2006-03-20T23:14:00.000Z-Sources" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JzG-2006-03-20T23:14:00.000Z-Sources"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JzG-2006-03-20T23:14:00.000Z-Sources"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Merging" data-mw-thread-id="h-Merging-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Merging-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z"></span>Merging<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Merging-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Chronospecies&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Merging"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z-Merging"></span>I am going to merge Transmutation of species into this article. Any objections? If not, then I'll merge.--<a href="/wiki/User:Exir_Kamalabadi" title="User:Exir Kamalabadi"><span style="color:steelblue;">Exir</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Exir_Kamalabadi" title="User talk:Exir Kamalabadi"><span style="color:royalblue;">Kamalabadi</span></a><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Esperanza" title="Wikipedia:Esperanza"><sup><span style="color:mediumseagreen;">Join Esperanza!</span></sup></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z-Merging" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z-Merging"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z-Merging"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-12T11:20:00.000Z-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z"></span>No objections? I'll merge in a few days --<a href="/wiki/User:Exir_Kamalabadi" title="User:Exir Kamalabadi"><span style="color:steelblue;">Exir</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Exir_Kamalabadi" title="User talk:Exir Kamalabadi"><span style="color:royalblue;">Kamalabadi</span></a><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Esperanza" title="Wikipedia:Esperanza"><sup><span style="color:mediumseagreen;">Join Esperanza!</span></sup></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-12T11:20:00.000Z-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-12T11:20:00.000Z-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-12T11:20:00.000Z-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Transmutation_of_species" title="Transmutation of species"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2006-04-23T00:23:00.000Z-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-12T11:20:00.000Z"></span>Transmutation of species</a> is a historical term. It was widespread in the nineteenth century and probably earlier. The concept of chronospecies is a later invention. Of course, chronospecies has something to do with the transmutation of species (for without the early transmutationists there would be no mature evolution theory). I checked <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Transmutation_of_species">what links here</a> for <i>transmutation</i>. Historical authors mostly (<a href="/wiki/Richard_Owen" title="Richard Owen">Richard Owen</a>, <a href="/wiki/Charles_Darwin" title="Charles Darwin">Charles Darwin</a>, etc). I would not be happy if, following a link to transmutation from Ch. Darwin, I find myself amidst of a much later concept of chronospecies. I would not merge these articles even though both are short. <a href="/wiki/User:Alexei_Kouprianov" title="User:Alexei Kouprianov">Alexei Kouprianov</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2006-04-23T00:23:00.000Z-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-12T11:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2006-04-23T00:23:00.000Z-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-12T11:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2006-04-23T00:23:00.000Z-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-12T11:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Brya-2006-04-23T09:07:00.000Z-Alexei_Kouprianov-2006-04-23T00:23:00.000Z"></span>Alexei's objections look sound to me. <a href="/wiki/User:Brya" title="User:Brya">Brya</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-Brya-2006-04-23T09:07:00.000Z-Alexei_Kouprianov-2006-04-23T00:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:07, 23 April 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Brya-2006-04-23T09:07:00.000Z-Alexei_Kouprianov-2006-04-23T00:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Brya-2006-04-23T09:07:00.000Z-Alexei_Kouprianov-2006-04-23T00:23:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Samsara-2006-04-24T09:09:00.000Z-Brya-2006-04-23T09:07:00.000Z"></span>Countersuggestion: discuss transmutation of species in a "history" section within <a href="/wiki/Chronospecies" title="Chronospecies">chronospecies</a>. <a href="/wiki/Transmutation_of_species" title="Transmutation of species">Transmutation of species</a> is such a useless stub right now, it doesn't even mention dates! - <a href="/wiki/User:Samsara" title="User:Samsara">Samsara</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Samsara" title="User talk:Samsara">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Samsara" title="Special:Contributions/Samsara">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-Samsara-2006-04-24T09:09:00.000Z-Brya-2006-04-23T09:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Samsara-2006-04-24T09:09:00.000Z-Brya-2006-04-23T09:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Samsara-2006-04-24T09:09:00.000Z-Brya-2006-04-23T09:07:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2006-04-24T11:37:00.000Z-Samsara-2006-04-24T09:09:00.000Z"></span>Negative. Transmutation of species is <b>not</b> about chronospecies. It is much more about an ancient understanding of species as distinct entities and about the ability of transmutation from one species into another very much like the alchemical transmutation of elements. If you like, the transmutation of species can be merged in the history section of the evolution theory, but definitely not in the chronospecies, which is a much narrower concept. I'd better consider expanding the transmutation than merging it here. <a href="/wiki/User:Alexei_Kouprianov" title="User:Alexei Kouprianov">Alexei Kouprianov</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2006-04-24T11:37:00.000Z-Samsara-2006-04-24T09:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2006-04-24T11:37:00.000Z-Samsara-2006-04-24T09:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2006-04-24T11:37:00.000Z-Samsara-2006-04-24T09:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Brya-2006-04-24T15:29:00.000Z-Brya-2006-04-23T09:07:00.000Z"></span>Here we go again. Just because something is short, it is not thereby worthless or a stub. Given the present limitations on redirects, it is inevitable to have separate items, at least if things are supposed to keep working. <a href="/wiki/User:Brya" title="User:Brya">Brya</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-Brya-2006-04-24T15:29:00.000Z-Brya-2006-04-23T09:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Brya-2006-04-24T15:29:00.000Z-Brya-2006-04-23T09:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Brya-2006-04-24T15:29:00.000Z-Brya-2006-04-23T09:07:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Wilkins-2006-09-20T12:26:00.000Z-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z"></span>Chronospecies is a term coined in the late 1950s. Chronospecies, or "successional species" are not regarded by most taxonomists as being true species. There's a very good article on it:</dd></dl> <dl><dd>T. N. George, 'Biospecies, chronospecies and morphospecies', The species concept in paleontology, P. C. Sylvester-Bradley (ed.), (London: Systematics Association, 1956), 123-137.</dd></dl> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:John_Wilkins" title="User:John Wilkins">John Wilkins</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-John_Wilkins-2006-09-20T12:26:00.000Z-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Wilkins-2006-09-20T12:26:00.000Z-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Wilkins-2006-09-20T12:26:00.000Z-Exir_Kamalabadi-2006-04-02T04:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Human_Evolution?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Human_Evolution?-2006-08-20T18:54:00.000Z"><span id="Human_Evolution.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Human_Evolution?-2006-08-20T18:54:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Human_Evolution" class="mw-redirect" title="Human Evolution">Human Evolution</a>?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Human_Evolution?-2006-08-20T18:54:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Chronospecies&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Human Evolution?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Raccoon_Fox-2006-08-20T18:54:00.000Z-Human_Evolution?"></span>Would the different species humans evolved through qualify as <a href="/wiki/Chronospecies" title="Chronospecies">chronospecies</a>? <span style="border: 2px solid #330000; text-align:center; background: #C0C0C0; text-color: #DDDDDD; link: #A0522D; vlink: #000000"> <b><a href="/wiki/User:Raccoon_Fox" title="User:Raccoon Fox">Raccoon Fox</a></b> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Raccoon_Fox" title="User talk:Raccoon Fox"><b>Talk</b></a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Raccoon_Fox" title="Special:Contributions/Raccoon Fox"><b>Stalk</b></a><b></b></span><b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-Raccoon_Fox-2006-08-20T18:54:00.000Z-Human_Evolution?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)</a></b><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Raccoon_Fox-2006-08-20T18:54:00.000Z-Human_Evolution?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Raccoon_Fox-2006-08-20T18:54:00.000Z-Human_Evolution?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2007-01-10T09:45:00.000Z-Raccoon_Fox-2006-08-20T18:54:00.000Z"></span>Well, they could. Nobody can prove, though, that this or that particular fossil is the direct and immediate ancestor. So, for purely logical reasons, taxonomists (including those working with hominid fossils) prefer to speak in terms of sister-group relationships even if they suspect that this particular fossil and modern humans may belong to the same chronospecies. <a href="/wiki/User:Alexei_Kouprianov" title="User:Alexei Kouprianov">Alexei Kouprianov</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2007-01-10T09:45:00.000Z-Raccoon_Fox-2006-08-20T18:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:45, 10 January 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2007-01-10T09:45:00.000Z-Raccoon_Fox-2006-08-20T18:54:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2007-01-10T09:45:00.000Z-Raccoon_Fox-2006-08-20T18:54:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Dog_breeds" data-mw-thread-id="h-Dog_breeds-2007-01-10T07:26:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Dog_breeds-2007-01-10T07:26:00.000Z"></span>Dog breeds<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Dog_breeds-2007-01-10T07:26:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Chronospecies&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Dog breeds"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-84.230.246.101-2007-01-10T07:26:00.000Z-Dog_breeds"></span>How do the differences between remnants of a <a href="/wiki/Shih_tzu" class="mw-redirect" title="Shih tzu">Shih tzu</a> and a <a href="/wiki/Great_Dane" title="Great Dane">Great Dane</a> relate to this article? <small>—The preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Sign_your_posts_on_talk_pages" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages">unsigned</a> comment was added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/84.230.246.101" title="Special:Contributions/84.230.246.101">84.230.246.101</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:84.230.246.101&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:84.230.246.101 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-84.230.246.101-2007-01-10T07:26:00.000Z-Dog_breeds" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)</a>.</small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-84.230.246.101-2007-01-10T07:26:00.000Z-Dog_breeds"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-84.230.246.101-2007-01-10T07:26:00.000Z-Dog_breeds"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2007-01-10T11:08:00.000Z-84.230.246.101-2007-01-10T07:26:00.000Z"></span>No, they can be better interpreted in terms of sister group relationships (with some reticulate evolution somewhat obscuring the branching pattern). Unless you speak of the developments within the breed (as long as they are considered to be of the same breed). See, here population biology (which is about self-reproducing biological entities) meets philosophy of taxonomy (which is, in part, about counting species the same or not)... <a href="/wiki/User:Alexei_Kouprianov" title="User:Alexei Kouprianov">Alexei Kouprianov</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2007-01-10T11:08:00.000Z-84.230.246.101-2007-01-10T07:26:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2007-01-10T11:08:00.000Z-84.230.246.101-2007-01-10T07:26:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Alexei_Kouprianov-2007-01-10T11:08:00.000Z-84.230.246.101-2007-01-10T07:26:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Partially_inaccurate" data-mw-thread-id="h-Partially_inaccurate-2007-08-27T15:56:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Partially_inaccurate-2007-08-27T15:56:00.000Z"></span>Partially inaccurate<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Partially_inaccurate-2007-08-27T15:56:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Chronospecies&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Partially inaccurate"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-213.114.237.122-2007-08-27T15:56:00.000Z-Partially_inaccurate"></span>I have some problems with this article, and thought I'd throw my thoughts out before doing any edits. </p><p>1) The definition of chronospecies, "A chronospecies is a species which changes physically, morphologically, genetically, and/or behaviorally over time on an evolutionary scale such that the originating species and the species it becomes could not be classified as the same species had they existed at the same point in time.", is IMO correct but incomplete. A chronospecies is a named species-level taxon which is _not separate from ancestral or descendant forms by a speciation event_ (branching of the lineage), but is separated from other species solely by time (hence "chrono-"). </p><p>From a phylogenetic point of view, a chronospecies is not a separate species at all, it is one single species changing over time, although different names have arbitrarily been assigned to fossils of the lineage at different points in time (due to the incompleteness of the fossil record, or as the article puts it, "chronospecies are usually recognized because two species in the same lineage are named by palaeontologists without knowledge of any intermediate organisms."). Ie, chronospecies are _grades_. </p><p>The discussion about "unchanged" species simply does not make sense to me - if a fossil is morphologically indistinguishable from another they are classified in the same species, regardless of the interval between the forms. It is not so that if two fossils are more distant in time than X they're separate species. </p><p>The discussion of "phyletic gradualism" & punk eq is confused. The fundamental assumption of punctuated equilibrium is that species can not undergo change except during speciation (branching of the lineage), and hence any change is interpreted as necessarily associated with a speciation event, whether a sister taxon is ever found or not. "Phyletic gradualism", on the other hand, is *not* a statement about the rate of change, the difference is simply that it allows change also when the lineage isn't branching, ie phyletic change. In other words, under punc eq lineages CAN NOT change without splitting, and the concept of chronospecies does not make sense in a punc eq framework. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:213.114.237.122&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:213.114.237.122 (page does not exist)">213.114.237.122</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-213.114.237.122-2007-08-27T15:56:00.000Z-Partially_inaccurate" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-213.114.237.122-2007-08-27T15:56:00.000Z-Partially_inaccurate"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-213.114.237.122-2007-08-27T15:56:00.000Z-Partially_inaccurate"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Article_cleanup" data-mw-thread-id="h-Article_cleanup-2010-10-27T04:44:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Article_cleanup-2010-10-27T04:44:00.000Z"></span>Article cleanup<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Article_cleanup-2010-10-27T04:44:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Chronospecies&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Article cleanup"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-StephenMacmanus-2010-10-27T04:44:00.000Z-Article_cleanup"></span>The previous section points out some of the problems in this article, which seem to still exist in the current version. Other issues also exist. </p> <ul><li>The article lead inaccurately mentions behavioral changes as a factor in identifying chronospecies, but it actually can only use evidence from the fossil record. So, the recognition of these groups basically relies on the morphology or (rarely) the genetics.</li></ul> <ul><li>The article incorrectly indicates that the term <i>paleospecies</i> is always a contrasting term. Actually, it just indicates a species known only through the fossil record, so any given example may or may not be part of a chronospecies sequence.</li></ul> <ul><li>Since it uses an incomplete concept of paleospecies, most of the current second paragraph is either wrong or so tangled it contradicts itself. In particular, the statement that "a morphologically unchanged fossil record... would obviously represent the remains of several species" is completely unfounded. A period of stasis can indicate anything: samples from some currently living species still overlap with known fossil forms. The reference to Howard (1947) is also contradictory. The linked article proposes a discussion for the consequences of species classification due to the existence of gradual changes in the fossil record. In fact, it is most likely suggesting the concept of a chronospecies, not the supposedly contrasting paleospecies it is said to discuss.</li></ul> <p>Basically, I've rewritten everything except the links to other articles. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:StephenMacmanus" title="User:StephenMacmanus">StephenMacmanus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:StephenMacmanus" title="User talk:StephenMacmanus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronospecies#c-StephenMacmanus-2010-10-27T04:44:00.000Z-Article_cleanup" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:44, 27 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-StephenMacmanus-2010-10-27T04:44:00.000Z-Article_cleanup"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-StephenMacmanus-2010-10-27T04:44:00.000Z-Article_cleanup"></span> </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Chronospecies&oldid=1200891056">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Chronospecies&oldid=1200891056</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Start-Class_Palaeontology_articles" title="Category:Start-Class Palaeontology articles">Start-Class Palaeontology articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_Palaeontology_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance Palaeontology articles">Mid-importance Palaeontology articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Start-Class_Palaeontology_articles_of_Mid-importance" title="Category:Start-Class Palaeontology articles of Mid-importance">Start-Class Palaeontology articles of Mid-importance</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Palaeontology_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Palaeontology articles">WikiProject Palaeontology articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Start-Class_taxonomic_articles" title="Category:Start-Class taxonomic articles">Start-Class taxonomic articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_taxonomic_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance taxonomic articles">Mid-importance taxonomic articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Tree of Life articles">WikiProject Tree of Life articles</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 30 January 2024, at 13:08<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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