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data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-toc.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-toc.unpin">hide</button> </div> <ul class="vector-toc-contents" id="mw-panel-toc-list"> <li id="toc-mw-content-text" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a href="#" class="vector-toc-link"> <div class="vector-toc-text">(Top)</div> </a> </li> <li id="toc-Köhler_not_president_anymore" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Köhler_not_president_anymore"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">1</span> <span>Köhler not president anymore</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Köhler_not_president_anymore-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Germania_paiting_from_1848" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Germania_paiting_from_1848"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>Germania paiting from 1848</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Germania_paiting_from_1848-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>why no mention of Nazi Germany in the header?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">10 comments</span> <ul id="toc-why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"The_war_resulted_in_the_death_of_over_five_million_German_soldiers_and_civilians;"" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"The_war_resulted_in_the_death_of_over_five_million_German_soldiers_and_civilians;""> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>"The war resulted in the death of over five million German soldiers and civilians;"</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">5 comments</span> <ul id="toc-"The_war_resulted_in_the_death_of_over_five_million_German_soldiers_and_civilians;"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Page_Protection_Needed" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Page_Protection_Needed"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Page Protection Needed</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Page_Protection_Needed-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Category:_Established_in_...." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Category:_Established_in_...."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>Category: Established in ....</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Category:_Established_in_....-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Template_grouping" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Template_grouping"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>Template grouping</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Template_grouping-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-german_population" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#german_population"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>german population</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-german_population-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Discussion_of_music" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Discussion_of_music"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>Discussion of music</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Discussion_of_music-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Culture_in_introduction" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Culture_in_introduction"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>Culture 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class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">5 comments</span> <ul id="toc-European_Court_of_Justice-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15</span> <span>Editions and removals in a featured article</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">6 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <nav aria-label="Contents" class="vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-titlebar-toc 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and two-column format"}'><span class='oo-ui-toggleSwitchWidget-glow'></span><a href='/w/index.php?title=Talk:Germany&diff=prev&oldid=395048476&diff-type=inline'><span class='oo-ui-toggleSwitchWidget-grip'></span></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><table class="diff diff-type-table diff-contentalign-left diff-editfont-monospace" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" class="diff-otitle diff-side-deleted"><div id="mw-diff-otitle1"><strong><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Germany&oldid=395047620" title="Talk:Germany">Revision as of 20:32, 5 November 2010</a> <span class="mw-diff-edit"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Germany&action=edit&oldid=395047620" title="Talk:Germany">edit</a></span><span class="mw-diff-timestamp" data-timestamp="2010-11-05T20:32:59Z"></span></strong></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle2"><a href="/wiki/User:Sushi_Leone" class="mw-userlink" title="User:Sushi Leone" data-mw-revid="395047620"><bdi>Sushi Leone</bdi></a> <span class="mw-usertoollinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sushi_Leone" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:Sushi Leone">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sushi_Leone" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/Sushi Leone">contribs</a>)</span><div class="mw-diff-usermetadata"><div class="mw-diff-userroles"></div><div class="mw-diff-usereditcount"><span>384</span> edits</div></div></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle3"> <span class="comment comment--without-parentheses"><span class="autocomment"><a href="#Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article">→<bdi dir="ltr">Editions and removals in a featured article</bdi></a></span></span></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle5"></div><div id="mw-diff-otitle4"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Germany&diff=prev&oldid=395047620" title="Talk:Germany" id="differences-prevlink">← Previous edit</a></div></td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-ntitle diff-side-added"><div id="mw-diff-ntitle1"><strong><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Germany&oldid=395048476" title="Talk:Germany">Revision as of 20:38, 5 November 2010</a> <span class="mw-diff-edit"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Germany&action=edit&oldid=395048476" title="Talk:Germany">edit</a></span><span class="mw-diff-timestamp" data-timestamp="2010-11-05T20:38:35Z"></span> <span class="mw-diff-undo"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Germany&action=edit&undoafter=395047620&undo=395048476" title=""Undo" reverts this edit and opens the edit form in preview mode. It allows adding a reason in the summary.">undo</a></span></strong></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle2"><a href="/wiki/User:Sushi_Leone" class="mw-userlink" title="User:Sushi Leone" data-mw-revid="395048476"><bdi>Sushi Leone</bdi></a> <span class="mw-usertoollinks">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sushi_Leone" class="mw-usertoollinks-talk" title="User talk:Sushi Leone">talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sushi_Leone" class="mw-usertoollinks-contribs" title="Special:Contributions/Sushi Leone">contribs</a>)</span><div class="mw-diff-usermetadata"><div class="mw-diff-userroles"></div><div class="mw-diff-usereditcount"><span>384</span> edits</div></div></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle3"> <span class="comment comment--without-parentheses"><span class="autocomment"><a href="#Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article">→<bdi dir="ltr">Editions and removals in a featured article</bdi></a></span></span></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle5"></div><div id="mw-diff-ntitle4"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Germany&diff=next&oldid=395048476" title="Talk:Germany" id="differences-nextlink">Next edit →</a></div></td> </tr><tr> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 184:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 184:</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><div>:"[...] German traditions have to be seen in a larger framework of [...] Western popculture" sounds nonsensical to me. Popculture is a modern thing, while traditions have developed long time in the past, sometimes stretching int modern times. So, when you want to understand traditions, popculture is less important than many things, e.g., medieval Western culture. [[User:Tomeasy|<span style="color:#0000f1;font-family:Papyrus;cursor:help">'''''T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea</font>s</font>y'''''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:Tomeasy| T]][[Special:Contributions/Tomeasy| C]]</sub> 19:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</div></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><div>:"[...] German traditions have to be seen in a larger framework of [...] Western popculture" sounds nonsensical to me. Popculture is a modern thing, while traditions have developed long time in the past, sometimes stretching int modern times. So, when you want to understand traditions, popculture is less important than many things, e.g., medieval Western culture. [[User:Tomeasy|<span style="color:#0000f1;font-family:Papyrus;cursor:help">'''''T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea</font>s</font>y'''''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:Tomeasy| T]][[Special:Contributions/Tomeasy| C]]</sub> 19:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-deleted"><div>:BTW, I reinstalled the old version and fixed a problem with the reference attached to the statement disputed here. The link did not work (at least for me). When I read the source, I also found that Sushi's version was better supported by the source than the version that Karl advocates. [[User:Tomeasy|<span style="color:#0000f1;font-family:Papyrus;cursor:help">'''''T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea</font>s</font>y'''''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:Tomeasy| T]][[Special:Contributions/Tomeasy| C]]</sub> 19:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</div></td> <td class="diff-marker"></td> <td class="diff-context diff-side-added"><div>:BTW, I reinstalled the old version and fixed a problem with the reference attached to the statement disputed here. The link did not work (at least for me). When I read the source, I also found that Sushi's version was better supported by the source than the version that Karl advocates. [[User:Tomeasy|<span style="color:#0000f1;font-family:Papyrus;cursor:help">'''''T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea</font>s</font>y'''''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:Tomeasy| T]][[Special:Contributions/Tomeasy| C]]</sub> 19:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td> <td class="diff-deletedline diff-side-deleted"><div>: Thank you Tomeasy. Dear KarlMathiessen I want to make sure that this thing is not about winning or losing. I do resprect your work here on wikipedia (like I do resprect all the other people that spend their time to contribute something). <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">But as</del> I mentioned before: This part of the article was the result of long discussions and it explains some very interesting specifics of German culture. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">The</del> <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">aver</del> <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">age</del> reader is probably not familiar with those aspects and might like to learn about them - and exactly this is the purpose of wikipedia<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">. This is why I´m so precious about it</del>. --[[User:Sushi Leone|Sushi Leone]] ([[User talk:Sushi Leone|talk]]) 20:32, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</div></td> <td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td> <td class="diff-addedline diff-side-added"><div>: Thank you Tomeasy. Dear KarlMathiessen I want to make sure that this thing is not about winning or losing. I do resprect your work here on wikipedia (like I do resprect all the other people that spend their<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline"> spare</ins> time to contribute something). <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">As</ins> I<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">`ve</ins> mentioned before: This part of the article was the result of long discussions and it explains some very interesting specifics of German culture<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline"> and its roots</ins>. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">That</ins> <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">is</ins> <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">the reason why I´m so precious about it. The average</ins> reader is probably not familiar with those aspects<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline"> of German culture</ins> and might like to learn about them - and exactly this is the purpose of wikipedia. --[[User:Sushi Leone|Sushi Leone]] ([[User talk:Sushi Leone|talk]]) 20:32, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</div></td> </tr> </table><hr class='diff-hr' id='mw-oldid' /> <h2 class='diff-currentversion-title'>Revision as of 20:38, 5 November 2010</h2> <div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237879475">.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:#f8eaba;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-invalid-type{text-align:center}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 10%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;width:238px}}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.tmbox img{max-width:none!important}</style><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice skiptotalk noprint" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1135323948">body.skin-vector-2022 .mw-parser-output .skiptotalk,body.mw-mf .mw-parser-output .skiptotalk{display:none}.mw-parser-output .skiptotalk a{display:block;text-align:center;font-style:italic;line-height:1.9}.mw-parser-output .skiptotalk a::before,.mw-parser-output .skiptotalk a::after{content:"↓";font-size:larger;line-height:1.6;font-style:normal}.mw-parser-output .skiptotalk a::before{float:left}.mw-parser-output .skiptotalk a::after{float:right}</style><a href="#toc">Skip to table of contents</a></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1230750088">.mw-parser-output .talkheader{text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-body{display:flex}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{display:flex;align-items:center;padding:0.1em}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help{flex:2 1 auto;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:var(--background-color-base,#ffffff);color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies+.talkheader-policies{border-left:1px solid #c0c090}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{flex:0 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts>*{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help ul,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies ul{margin:0.1em 0.8em 0 1.6em;text-align:left}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .talkheader{min-width:80%}}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice talkheader plainlinks" id="talkheader" style="border-collapse: separate;"><tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom: 1px solid #c0c090; font-weight: bold;">This is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines">talk page</a> for discussing improvements to the <a href="/wiki/Germany" title="Germany">Germany</a> article.<br/> This is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#FORUM" title="Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not">not a forum</a> for general discussion of the article's subject.</td> </tr> <tr> <td> <div class="talkheader-body"> <div class="talkheader-help"> <ul><li>Put new text under old text. <strong><a href="/wiki/Special:NewSection/Talk:Germany" title="Special:NewSection/Talk:Germany">Click here to start a new topic.</a></strong></li> <li>New to Wikipedia? Welcome! <a href="/wiki/Help:Introduction" title="Help:Introduction">Learn to edit</a>; <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Questions" title="Wikipedia:Questions">get help</a>.</li></ul> </div> <div class="talkheader-policies"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith" title="Wikipedia:Assume good faith">Assume good faith</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility" title="Wikipedia:Civility">Be polite</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks" title="Wikipedia:No personal attacks">avoid personal attacks</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers" title="Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers">Be welcoming to newcomers</a></li> <li>Seek <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests" title="Wikipedia:Dispute resolution requests">dispute resolution</a> if needed</li></ul> </div><div class="talkheader-policies"> <div><b>Article policies</b> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">Neutral point of view</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research" title="Wikipedia:No original research">No original research</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability" title="Wikipedia:Verifiability">Verifiability</a></li></ul> </div> </div> </div> </td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><span class="plainlinks"><i>Find sources:</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?as_eq=wikipedia&q=%22Germany%22">Google</a> (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&q=%22Germany%22+-wikipedia">books</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=%22Germany%22+-wikipedia&tbs=ar:1">news</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Germany%22">scholar</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&tbs=sur:fmc&tbm=isch&q=%22Germany%22+-site:wikipedia.org+-site:wikimedia.org">free images</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&cx=007734830908295939403%3Agalkqgoksq0&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3AWikipedia%2520Reference%2520Search&q=%22Germany%22">WP refs</a>) <b>·</b> <span title="Free English newspaper sources" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Free_English_newspaper_sources">FENS</a></span> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Germany%22&acc=on&wc=on">JSTOR</a> <b>·</b> <span title="The Wikipedia Library" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/search/?q=%22Germany%22">TWL</a></span></span></td></tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><b><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">Archives</a>:</b> <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_index" title="Talk:Germany/Archive index">Index</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_1" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_2" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 2">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_3" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 3">3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_4" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 4">4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_5" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 5">5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_6" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 6">6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_7" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 7">7</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_8" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 8">8</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_9" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 9">9</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_10" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 10">10</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_11" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 11">11</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_12" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 12">12</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_13" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 13">13</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_14" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 14">14</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_15" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 15">15</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_16" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 16">16</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_17" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 17">17</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_18" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 18">18</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_19" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 19">19</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_20" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 20">20</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_21" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 21">21</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_22" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 22">22</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_23" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 23">23</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_24" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 24">24</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_25" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 25">25</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_26" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 26">26</a><span style="position: relative; 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padding: 0;"><div> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:Germany/" name="prefix"/> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </div></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <p class="mw-empty-elt"> </p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1230750088"><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice talkheader plainlinks" id="talkheader" style="border-collapse: separate;"><tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom: 1px solid #c0c090; font-weight: bold;">This is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines">talk page</a> for discussing improvements to the <a href="/wiki/Germany" title="Germany">Germany</a> article.<br/> This is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#FORUM" title="Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not">not a forum</a> for general discussion of the article's subject.</td> </tr> <tr> <td> <div class="talkheader-body"> <div class="talkheader-help"> <ul><li>Put new text under old text. <strong><a href="/wiki/Special:NewSection/Talk:Germany" title="Special:NewSection/Talk:Germany">Click here to start a new topic.</a></strong></li> <li>New to Wikipedia? Welcome! <a href="/wiki/Help:Introduction" title="Help:Introduction">Learn to edit</a>; <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Questions" title="Wikipedia:Questions">get help</a>.</li></ul> </div> <div class="talkheader-policies"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith" title="Wikipedia:Assume good faith">Assume good faith</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility" title="Wikipedia:Civility">Be polite</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks" title="Wikipedia:No personal attacks">avoid personal attacks</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers" title="Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers">Be welcoming to newcomers</a></li> <li>Seek <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests" title="Wikipedia:Dispute resolution requests">dispute resolution</a> if needed</li></ul> </div><div class="talkheader-policies"> <div><b>Article policies</b> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">Neutral point of view</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research" title="Wikipedia:No original research">No original research</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability" title="Wikipedia:Verifiability">Verifiability</a></li></ul> </div> </div> </div> </td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><span class="plainlinks"><i>Find sources:</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?as_eq=wikipedia&q=%22Germany%22">Google</a> (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&q=%22Germany%22+-wikipedia">books</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=%22Germany%22+-wikipedia&tbs=ar:1">news</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Germany%22">scholar</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&tbs=sur:fmc&tbm=isch&q=%22Germany%22+-site:wikipedia.org+-site:wikimedia.org">free images</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&cx=007734830908295939403%3Agalkqgoksq0&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3AWikipedia%2520Reference%2520Search&q=%22Germany%22">WP refs</a>) <b>·</b> <span title="Free English newspaper sources" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Free_English_newspaper_sources">FENS</a></span> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Germany%22&acc=on&wc=on">JSTOR</a> <b>·</b> <span title="The Wikipedia Library" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/search/?q=%22Germany%22">TWL</a></span></span></td></tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><b><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">Archives</a>:</b> <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_index" title="Talk:Germany/Archive index">Index</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_1" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_2" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 2">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_3" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 3">3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_4" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 4">4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_5" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 5">5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_6" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 6">6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_7" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 7">7</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_8" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 8">8</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_9" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 9">9</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_10" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 10">10</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_11" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 11">11</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_12" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 12">12</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_13" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 13">13</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_14" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 14">14</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_15" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 15">15</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_16" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 16">16</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_17" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 17">17</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_18" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 18">18</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_19" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 19">19</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_20" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 20">20</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_21" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 21">21</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_22" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 22">22</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_23" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 23">23</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_24" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 24">24</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_25" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 25">25</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Germany/Archive_26" title="Talk:Germany/Archive 26">26</a><span style="position: relative; top: 2px; float: right; font-size: 90%; margin-left: 1em;"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1038841319"><span class="rt-commentedText tooltip tooltip-dotted" title="Discussions with timestamps are automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III after 90 days of inactivity when more than 5 threads are present.">Auto-archiving period</span>: <b>3 months</b> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page#Automated_archiving" title="Help:Archiving a talk page"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/16px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/24px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/32px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"/></a></span></span></td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 0;"><div> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:Germany/" name="prefix"/> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </div></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <p><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:VA&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Template:VA (page does not exist)">Template:VA</a> <a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Outline_of_knowledge_coverage&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Template:Outline of knowledge coverage (page does not exist)">Template:Outline of knowledge coverage</a> </p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1135653291">@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .article-history{min-width:80%}}</style><table class="article-history tmbox tmbox-notice"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Featured_article_star.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Featured article"><img alt="Featured article" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Featured_article_star.svg/50px-Featured_article_star.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Featured_article_star.svg/75px-Featured_article_star.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Featured_article_star.svg/100px-Featured_article_star.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="180"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><b>Germany</b> is a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_articles" title="Wikipedia:Featured articles">featured article</a>; it (or a previous version of it) has been <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Germany" title="Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Germany">identified</a></b> as one of the best articles produced by the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedians" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedians">Wikipedia community</a>. Even so, if you can update or improve it, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold" title="Wikipedia:Be bold">please do so</a>.</td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Main Page trophy"><img alt="Main Page trophy" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/80/Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg/30px-Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="27" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/80/Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg/45px-Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/80/Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg/60px-Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="103" data-file-height="94"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/April_7,_2007" title="Wikipedia:Today's featured article/April 7, 2007">Today's featured article</a> on April 7, 2007.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" style="width:100%"><table class="article-history-milestones" style="width:100%;font-size:90%"><tbody><tr><th colspan="3" style="font-size:110%">Article milestones</th></tr><tr style="text-align:left"><th>Date</th><th>Process</th><th>Result</th></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Germany&oldid=58245295">June 12, 2006</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Germany/archive1" title="Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Germany/archive1">Featured article candidate</a></b></td><td>Not promoted</td></tr><tr><td>November 29, 2006</td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/Germany/archive1" title="Wikipedia:Peer review/Germany/archive1">Peer review</a></b></td><td>Reviewed</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Germany&oldid=99591232">January 9, 2007</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Germany" title="Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Germany">Featured article candidate</a></b></td><td>Promoted</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">Current status: <b>Featured article</b></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1243927654">.mw-parser-output .banner-shell{border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:4px}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-header{text-align:center;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{padding:2px 4px;background:#fffaef;color:inherit;border:1px dotted gray}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{background:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{background:#2e2505}}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell .tmbox{margin:2px 0;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell .tmbox.mbox-small{line-height:1.5em;font-size:100%}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner .banner-shell-outside{display:none}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .wpbs{width:80%}}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .assess{width:60px;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-header{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em 0.25em 0}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-header{display:table-row}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb:not(.mw-collapsed) .wpb-header-icon a{display:none}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice banner-shell wpbs mw-collapsible"><tbody><tr><td class="assess"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_question.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Unassessed article"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/35px-Symbol_question.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="36" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/53px-Symbol_question.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/70px-Symbol_question.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span></td><td class="banner-shell-header" style="text-align:left;font-weight:normal">This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.<br/>It is of interest to the following <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject">WikiProjects</a>:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="banner-shell-inner outercollapse"><div class="error">Please add the quality rating to the <code>{{WikiProject banner shell}}</code> template instead of this project banner. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PIQA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PIQA">WP:PIQA</a> for details.</div><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1259570071">.mw-parser-output .wpb-header,.mw-parser-output .wpb-metadata,.mw-parser-output .wpb-iefix{display:none}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-name{text-align:right;padding:0.3em 1em 0.3em 0.3em;width:50%;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-assessment{text-align:left;width:50%;padding:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-combined{text-align:left;padding:0.3em 0.3em 0.3em 0;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-bubbles{border-radius:.5em;padding:0 .3em;margin-left:0.5em;white-space:nowrap;font-weight:normal;color:black}.mw-parser-output .wpb-nested-task-force{font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-icon{width:50px;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output 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.import-top{background-color:#FFBFFF}.mw-parser-output .import-high{background-color:#FFCCFF}.mw-parser-output .import-mid{background-color:#FFD9FF}.mw-parser-output .import-low{background-color:#FFE7FF}.mw-parser-output .import-bottom{background-color:#FFEBFF}.mw-parser-output .import-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .import-unknown{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .class-fa,.mw-parser-output .class-fl,.mw-parser-output .class-fm{background-color:#BED3FF}.mw-parser-output .class-a,.mw-parser-output .class-al{background-color:#C0FFFF}.mw-parser-output .class-ga{background-color:#C0FFC0}.mw-parser-output .class-b,.mw-parser-output .class-bl{background-color:#DFFFBF}.mw-parser-output .class-c,.mw-parser-output .class-cl{background-color:#FFFFBE}.mw-parser-output .class-start{background-color:#FFDBBF}.mw-parser-output .class-stub,.mw-parser-output .class-sl{background-color:#FFC0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-list{background-color:#D2C0FF}.mw-parser-output .class-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .class-category{background-color:#FFDB58}.mw-parser-output .class-disambig{background-color:#00FA9A}.mw-parser-output .class-draft{background-color:#E7B198}.mw-parser-output .class-file{background-color:#DDCCFF}.mw-parser-output .class-future{background-color:#B4BBFF}.mw-parser-output .class-portal{background-color:#DDB1BC}.mw-parser-output .class-project{background-color:#C0C090}.mw-parser-output .class-redirect{background-color:#C0C0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-sia{background-color:#E9DAFF}.mw-parser-output .class-user{background-color:#DDD06A}.mw-parser-output .class-template{background-color:#FBCEB1}.mw-parser-output .class-unassessed{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .conflict{border:0.2em solid red}.mw-parser-output .inactive-wikiproject .wpb-header-bubbles{color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Germany.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/35px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/53px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/70px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1000" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Germany" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany">Germany</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles class-fa">FA‑class</span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-top">Top‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Germany.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/80px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="48" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/120px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/160px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1000" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1259569809">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/32px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="19" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/48px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/64px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1000" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Germany" title="Portal:Germany">Germany portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Germany" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany">WikiProject Germany</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Germany" title="Germany">Germany</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Germany" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Germany</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Germany</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Germany articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess class-fa"><a href="/wiki/Category:FA-Class_Germany_articles" title="Category:FA-Class Germany articles">FA</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>FA-class</b> on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.</td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-top"><a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Germany_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Germany articles">Top</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Top-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Germany/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <div class="error">Please add the quality rating to the <code>{{WikiProject banner shell}}</code> template instead of this project banner. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PIQA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PIQA">WP:PIQA</a> for details.</div><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:BlankMap-World.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/BlankMap-World.svg/35px-BlankMap-World.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="18" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/BlankMap-World.svg/53px-BlankMap-World.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/BlankMap-World.svg/70px-BlankMap-World.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="2754" data-file-height="1398"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries">Countries</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles class-fa">FA‑class</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:BlankMap-World.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/BlankMap-World.svg/100px-BlankMap-World.svg.png" decoding="async" width="100" height="51" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/BlankMap-World.svg/150px-BlankMap-World.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/BlankMap-World.svg/200px-BlankMap-World.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="2754" data-file-height="1398"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:P_countries-vector.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/P_countries-vector.svg/31px-P_countries-vector.svg.png" decoding="async" width="31" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/P_countries-vector.svg/47px-P_countries-vector.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/P_countries-vector.svg/62px-P_countries-vector.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="400" data-file-height="360"/></a></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Countries" title="Portal:Countries">Countries portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries">WikiProject Countries</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Country" title="Country">countries</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countries" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Countries</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Countries</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">country articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess class-fa"><a href="/wiki/Category:FA-Class_country_articles" title="Category:FA-Class country articles">FA</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>FA-class</b> on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" style="padding:0"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="background:transparent;width:100%"><tbody><tr><th style="text-align:left;padding:0.2em 2px 0.2em 0">WikiProject Countries to-do list:</th></tr><tr><td style="text-align:left;padding:5px;background-color:white;border:1px solid #c0c090;margin-top:5px"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1129693374">.mw-parser-output .hlist dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul{margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt,.mw-parser-output .hlist li{margin:0;display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ul{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist .mw-empty-li{display:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dt::after{content:": "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li::after{content:" · ";font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li:last-child::after{content:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:first-child::before{content:" (";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:last-child::after{content:")";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol{counter-reset:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li{counter-increment:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li::before{content:" "counter(listitem)"\a0 "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li ol>li:first-child::before{content:" ("counter(listitem)"\a0 "}</style><div class="hlist plainlinks" style="text-align:center;font-size:90%;"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Countries%2Fto_do&action=edit">edit</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Countries%2Fto_do&action=history">history</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Countries%2Fto_do&action=watch">watch</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Countries%2Fto_do&action=purge">purge</a></li></ul> </div> <table style="background:none;color:inherit;width:auto;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="vertical-align:top;"> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/50px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/75px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/100px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span><br/><div style="width: 55px; height: 0px;"></div> </td> <td> <div style="position: relative; left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; z-index: 15;">Here are some tasks awaiting attention: <ul style="font-size: 100%; margin: 0px; padding: 0.3em 0px 0.3em 25px;"> <li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles" title="Wikipedia:Requested articles">Article requests</a></i> :</b> Check out the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries/Article_alerts" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries/Article alerts">article alerts</a>; see if anything catches your fancy.</li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Cleanup" title="Wikipedia:Cleanup">Cleanup</a></i> :</b> <span class="plainlinks" style="border-radius: 7px; font-size: 0.9em; padding: 4px 12px; width: 25em; background-color: #EEE"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://bambots.brucemyers.com/cwb/bycat/Countries.html">clean-up listing for Countries</a><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/User:CleanupWorklistBot" title="the tool's wiki page"><img alt="the tool's wiki page" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f2/Edit-clear.svg/20px-Edit-clear.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f2/Edit-clear.svg/30px-Edit-clear.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f2/Edit-clear.svg/40px-Edit-clear.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></a></span></span></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub" title="Wikipedia:Stub">Stubs</a></i> :</b> de-stub articles in <a href="/wiki/Category:Stubs_by_region" title="Category:Stubs by region">Category:Stubs by region</a>.</li><li><b><i>Other</i> :</b> add <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:WPCountries" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:WPCountries">WPCountries</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> to <i>talk</i> pages of related articles, and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries/Assessment" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries/Assessment">assess</a>.</li> </ul> </div> </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <div class="error">Please add the quality rating to the <code>{{WikiProject banner shell}}</code> template instead of this project banner. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PIQA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PIQA">WP:PIQA</a> for details.</div><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Lutherrose.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Lutherrose.svg/25px-Lutherrose.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Lutherrose.svg/38px-Lutherrose.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Lutherrose.svg/50px-Lutherrose.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1000" data-file-height="1000"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Lutheranism" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Lutheranism">Lutheranism</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles class-fa">FA‑class</span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-low">Low‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Lutherrose.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Lutherrose.svg/80px-Lutherrose.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="80" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Lutherrose.svg/120px-Lutherrose.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Lutherrose.svg/160px-Lutherrose.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1000" data-file-height="1000"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><b>Germany</b> is part of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Lutheranism" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Lutheranism">WikiProject Lutheranism</a></b>, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Lutheranism on Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to Lutheran churches, Lutheran theology and worship, and biographies of notable Lutherans. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Lutheranism" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Lutheranism">project page</a>, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Lutheranism" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lutheranism">discussion</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Lutheranism</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Lutheranism</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Lutheranism</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Lutheranism articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess class-fa"><a href="/wiki/Category:FA-Class_Lutheranism_articles" title="Category:FA-Class Lutheranism articles">FA</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>FA-class</b> on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.</td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-low"><a href="/wiki/Category:Low-importance_Lutheranism_articles" title="Category:Low-importance Lutheranism articles">Low</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Low-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Lutheranism/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Lutheranism/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:WP1.0&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Template:WP1.0 (page does not exist)">Template:WP1.0</a></td></tr></tbody></table><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Sound-icon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Sound-icon.svg/33px-Sound-icon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="33" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Sound-icon.svg/51px-Sound-icon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Sound-icon.svg/67px-Sound-icon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="96"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Spoken_Wikipedia" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia">Spoken Wikipedia</a> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Sound-icon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Sound-icon.svg/100px-Sound-icon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="100" height="75" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Sound-icon.svg/150px-Sound-icon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Sound-icon.svg/200px-Sound-icon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="96"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Spoken_Wikipedia" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia">WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles that are <b><a href="/wiki/Speech" title="Speech">spoken</a></b> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spoken_Wikipedia" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Spoken Wikipedia</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Spoken Wikipedia articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table id="bre" class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-style" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/50px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/75px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/100px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1200" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is <b>written in <a href="/wiki/British_English" title="British English">British English</a></b>, which has its own spelling conventions (<i>colour</i>, <i>travelled</i>, <i>centre</i>, <i>defence</i>, <i>artefact</i>, <i>analyse</i>) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other <a href="/wiki/List_of_dialects_of_English" title="List of dialects of English">varieties of English</a>. According to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style">relevant style guide</a>, this should not be changed without <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus#Levels_of_consensus" title="Wikipedia:Consensus">broad consensus</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_date.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/45px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png" decoding="async" width="45" height="45" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/68px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/90px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Main_Page" title="Main Page">Main Page</a> in the <i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Selected_anniversaries" title="Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries">On this day</a></i> section on <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Selected_anniversaries/October_3?oldid=317662618">October 3, 2009</a> and <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Selected_anniversaries/October_3?oldid=388405994">October 3, 2010</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Köhler_not_president_anymore" data-mw-thread-id="h-Köhler_not_president_anymore"><span id="K.C3.B6hler_not_president_anymore"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Köhler_not_president_anymore"></span>Köhler not president anymore<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Köhler_not_president_anymore"></span></h2></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Germania_paiting_from_1848" data-mw-thread-id="h-Germania_paiting_from_1848-2010-07-18T21:51:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Germania_paiting_from_1848-2010-07-18T21:51:00.000Z"></span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Germania_paiting_from_1848&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Germania paiting from 1848 (page does not exist)">Germania paiting from 1848</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Germania_paiting_from_1848-2010-07-18T21:51:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-P-Schmidt22-2010-07-18T21:51:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848"></span>Germania is a painting by Philipp Veit created in March 1848 during the Revolutions of 1848. It was used as an allegoric decoration in the National Assembly in Frankfurt's Paulskirche, where it concealed the organ. It was meant as a symbol of a united democratic Germany and remained a national personification until the end of World War I. and so this painting should be on this section of Restoration and Revolution 1814 to 1871. that is why I try to put it there. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/User:P-Schmidt22" title="User:P-Schmidt22">P-Schmidt22</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:P-Schmidt22" title="User talk:P-Schmidt22">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/P-Schmidt22" title="Special:Contributions/P-Schmidt22">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-P-Schmidt22-2010-07-18T21:51:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:51, 18 July 2010 (UTC)</a></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-P-Schmidt22-2010-07-18T21:51:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-P-Schmidt22-2010-07-18T21:51:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-77.28.118.157-2010-07-19T00:22:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848"></span>ASLIJAN <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/77.28.118.157" title="Special:Contributions/77.28.118.157">77.28.118.157</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:77.28.118.157&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:77.28.118.157 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-77.28.118.157-2010-07-19T00:22:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:22, 19 July 2010 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-77.28.118.157-2010-07-19T00:22:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-77.28.118.157-2010-07-19T00:22:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-07-19T14:03:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848"></span>The era is already pictured with the assembly in the Paulskirche (Frankfurt parliament). The Germania Veit painting seems superfluous especially because the former pic already includes the Germania. It´s size appears to overload at least 2 sections. An extra value can hardly be proofed. <a href="/wiki/User:KarlMathiessen" title="User:KarlMathiessen">KarlMathiessen</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarlMathiessen" title="User talk:KarlMathiessen">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-KarlMathiessen-2010-07-19T14:03:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:03, 19 July 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-07-19T14:03:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-07-19T14:03:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848"></span> </p><p><br/><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-92.67.82.67-2010-10-08T08:47:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848"></span> Ja denkt niet he-.- <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/92.67.82.67" title="Special:Contributions/92.67.82.67">92.67.82.67</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:92.67.82.67" title="User talk:92.67.82.67">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-92.67.82.67-2010-10-08T08:47:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:47, 8 October 2010 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-92.67.82.67-2010-10-08T08:47:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-92.67.82.67-2010-10-08T08:47:00.000Z-Germania_paiting_from_1848"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?" data-mw-thread-id="h-why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?-2010-07-27T03:07:00.000Z"><span id="why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?-2010-07-27T03:07:00.000Z"></span>why no mention of Nazi Germany in the header?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?-2010-07-27T03:07:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tallicfan20-2010-07-27T03:07:00.000Z-why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?"></span>it mentions the German unification, but doesn't mention how in 1933 Hitler took power and the 3rd Reich began. Why no mention?<a href="/wiki/User:Tallicfan20" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Tallicfan20">Tallicfan20</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tallicfan20" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Tallicfan20">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Tallicfan20-2010-07-27T03:07:00.000Z-why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tallicfan20-2010-07-27T03:07:00.000Z-why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tallicfan20-2010-07-27T03:07:00.000Z-why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Boson-2010-07-27T05:55:00.000Z-Tallicfan20-2010-07-27T03:07:00.000Z"></span>By "header", I presume you mean the introduction. The introduction is meant to briefly summarize the article in about 3-4 short paragraphs, and it seem reasonable to devote one paragraph to the history of Germany. The current rationale for what to include seems to be to focus on the formation of Germany as a country, therefore also mentioning the period when Germany was divided , before being re-united. Extending the selection to include a summary of major periods in German history would make the history paragraph longer, and one would need to decide what to include, presumably not just the Third Reich.--<a href="/wiki/User:Boson" title="User:Boson">Boson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Boson" title="User talk:Boson">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Boson-2010-07-27T05:55:00.000Z-Tallicfan20-2010-07-27T03:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Boson-2010-07-27T05:55:00.000Z-Tallicfan20-2010-07-27T03:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Boson-2010-07-27T05:55:00.000Z-Tallicfan20-2010-07-27T03:07:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tomeasy-2010-07-27T06:09:00.000Z-Boson-2010-07-27T05:55:00.000Z"></span>This is a good explanation as to why it was not mentioned so far, and therefore perfectly answers Tallicfan's questions.</dd> <dd>However, should the question be meant as a request to add Nazi Germany in the lead, I would endorse to do so, i.e., add succinct content between 1871 and 1949, preferably one or two sentences. <a href="/wiki/User:Tomeasy" title="User:Tomeasy"><span style="color:#0000f1;font-family:Papyrus;cursor:help"><i><b>T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea</font>s</font>y</b></i></span></a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tomeasy" title="User talk:Tomeasy"> T</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tomeasy" title="Special:Contributions/Tomeasy"> C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Tomeasy-2010-07-27T06:09:00.000Z-Boson-2010-07-27T05:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tomeasy-2010-07-27T06:09:00.000Z-Boson-2010-07-27T05:55:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tomeasy-2010-07-27T06:09:00.000Z-Boson-2010-07-27T05:55:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Atwardow-2010-09-11T18:33:00.000Z-Tomeasy-2010-07-27T06:09:00.000Z"></span>This line of thinking is a little strange. World War II was arguably the most important series of events in the 20th century. Its politics changed the world forever. Failing to include Germany's role in this major historical period in the introductory paragraph (it's glazed over and picks up with "When it lost World War II" or something like that) is awkward. --<a href="/wiki/User:Atwardow" title="User:Atwardow">Atwardow</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Atwardow" title="User talk:Atwardow">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Atwardow-2010-09-11T18:33:00.000Z-Tomeasy-2010-07-27T06:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:33, 11 September 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Atwardow-2010-09-11T18:33:00.000Z-Tomeasy-2010-07-27T06:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Atwardow-2010-09-11T18:33:00.000Z-Tomeasy-2010-07-27T06:09:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Boson-2010-10-01T23:52:00.000Z-Atwardow-2010-09-11T18:33:00.000Z"></span>I don't see any objection to a short sentence mentioning the two world wars, but the current coverage seems fairly standard to me. The introductions of the articles for <a href="/wiki/France" title="France">France</a> and the <a href="/wiki/United_Kingdom" title="United Kingdom">United Kingdom</a> don't seem to mention their roles either, and the articles on <a href="/wiki/Russia" title="Russia">Russia</a>, <a href="/wiki/Belgium" title="Belgium">Belgium</a>, <a href="/wiki/Poland" title="Poland">Poland</a>, and the <a href="/wiki/United_States" title="United States">United States</a> have only brief mentions of WW2 in the introduction.--<a href="/wiki/User:Boson" title="User:Boson">Boson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Boson" title="User talk:Boson">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Boson-2010-10-01T23:52:00.000Z-Atwardow-2010-09-11T18:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:52, 1 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Boson-2010-10-01T23:52:00.000Z-Atwardow-2010-09-11T18:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Boson-2010-10-01T23:52:00.000Z-Atwardow-2010-09-11T18:33:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-70.179.111.38-2010-10-01T18:11:00.000Z-Boson-2010-07-27T05:55:00.000Z"></span>why don't you introduce genocide of amerindians in united states section? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/70.179.111.38" title="Special:Contributions/70.179.111.38">70.179.111.38</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:70.179.111.38" title="User talk:70.179.111.38">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-70.179.111.38-2010-10-01T18:11:00.000Z-Boson-2010-07-27T05:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:11, 1 October 2010 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-70.179.111.38-2010-10-01T18:11:00.000Z-Boson-2010-07-27T05:55:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-70.179.111.38-2010-10-01T18:11:00.000Z-Boson-2010-07-27T05:55:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Alarics-2010-10-20T19:25:00.000Z-70.179.111.38-2010-10-01T18:11:00.000Z"></span>I agree that it seems odd not to mention the Nazi period at all; it can hardly be regarded as just another one of several different governments. I have added a short sentence accordingly. <a href="/wiki/User:Alarics" title="User:Alarics">Alarics</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Alarics" title="User talk:Alarics">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Alarics-2010-10-20T19:25:00.000Z-70.179.111.38-2010-10-01T18:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:25, 20 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Alarics-2010-10-20T19:25:00.000Z-70.179.111.38-2010-10-01T18:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Alarics-2010-10-20T19:25:00.000Z-70.179.111.38-2010-10-01T18:11:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Alarics-2010-10-21T08:02:00.000Z-Alarics-2010-10-20T19:25:00.000Z"></span>In line with the above discussion, I added the sentence "It became a totalitarian dictatorship in 1933; under this regime it started <a href="/wiki/World_War_II" title="World War II">World War II</a> in 1939 and was defeated in 1945." However, <a href="/wiki/User:KarlMathiessen" title="User:KarlMathiessen">KarlMathiessen</a> removed it, stating that "The history section in the introduction concentrates on statehood, not on specific ideologies or political concepts". I still find it quite bizarre that the lead jumps from 1871 to 1949 without even a hint of Germany's defeat in two world wars: especially the second one, which Germany unequivocally started and was then completely destroyed by. Do others agree? <a href="/wiki/User:Alarics" title="User:Alarics">Alarics</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Alarics" title="User talk:Alarics">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Alarics-2010-10-21T08:02:00.000Z-Alarics-2010-10-20T19:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Alarics-2010-10-21T08:02:00.000Z-Alarics-2010-10-20T19:25:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Alarics-2010-10-21T08:02:00.000Z-Alarics-2010-10-20T19:25:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T18:35:00.000Z-Alarics-2010-10-21T08:02:00.000Z"></span>I agree with the observation that the history para of the lead is very short concerning the time between 1871 and 1949, which includes three different government types and two world wars where the country played a key role.</dd> <dd>Nevertheless, I agree with Karl's revert, as the wording you proposed sounds too emotional about proving a point that Germany at the time was bad, stupid, and a looser. Even if it is hard to disagree here, it just does not come across encyclopaedically. <a href="/wiki/User:Tomeasy" title="User:Tomeasy"><span style="color:#0000f1;font-family:Papyrus;cursor:help"><i><b>T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea</font>s</font>y</b></i></span></a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tomeasy" title="User talk:Tomeasy"> T</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tomeasy" title="Special:Contributions/Tomeasy"> C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T18:35:00.000Z-Alarics-2010-10-21T08:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:35, 21 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T18:35:00.000Z-Alarics-2010-10-21T08:02:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T18:35:00.000Z-Alarics-2010-10-21T08:02:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-21T19:54:00.000Z-why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?"></span>At all: Right now the History summary covers around 1/3 of the entire introduction. This seems already very long compared to the size of the History in the total article. Please keep in mind that the History of German states, as it is presented so far, covers 2000 years. It seems obvious that not all incidents can be covered. This said, I believe this article has a great comprehensive History section and nothing crucial (nazi/ communist dictatorship) is left out. Have a look at Japan, USA, France, UK and you will find that in total, History has a large presence in this article. <a href="/wiki/User:KarlMathiessen" title="User:KarlMathiessen">KarlMathiessen</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarlMathiessen" title="User talk:KarlMathiessen">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-21T19:54:00.000Z-why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:54, 21 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-21T19:54:00.000Z-why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-21T19:54:00.000Z-why_no_mention_of_Nazi_Germany_in_the_header?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""The_war_resulted_in_the_death_of_over_five_million_German_soldiers_and_civilians;"" data-mw-thread-id="h-"The_war_resulted_in_the_death_of_over_five_million_German_soldiers_and_civilian-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z"><span id=".22The_war_resulted_in_the_death_of_over_five_million_German_soldiers_and_civilians.3B.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"The_war_resulted_in_the_death_of_over_five_million_German_soldiers_and_civilian-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z"></span>"The war resulted in the death of over five million German soldiers and civilians;"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"The_war_resulted_in_the_death_of_over_five_million_German_soldiers_and_civilian-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-David_R._Ingham-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z-"The_war_resulted_in_the_death_of_over_five_million_German_soldiers_and_civilian"></span>This figure seems too small, in comparison to the previous paragraph. I Holocaust victims are excluded, it should say so. <a href="/wiki/User:David_R._Ingham" title="User:David R. Ingham">David R. Ingham</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_R._Ingham" title="User talk:David R. Ingham">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-David_R._Ingham-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z-"The_war_resulted_in_the_death_of_over_five_million_German_soldiers_and_civilian" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:47, 5 August 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-David_R._Ingham-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z-"The_war_resulted_in_the_death_of_over_five_million_German_soldiers_and_civilian"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-David_R._Ingham-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z-"The_war_resulted_in_the_death_of_over_five_million_German_soldiers_and_civilian"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tomeasy-2010-08-05T18:09:00.000Z-David_R._Ingham-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z"></span>Most of the Holocaust victims were not Germans.</dd> <dd>Could you elaborate further; perhaps show some numbers. <a href="/wiki/User:Tomeasy" title="User:Tomeasy"><span style="color:#0000f1;font-family:Papyrus;cursor:help"><i><b>T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea</font>s</font>y</b></i></span></a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tomeasy" title="User talk:Tomeasy"> T</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tomeasy" title="Special:Contributions/Tomeasy"> C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Tomeasy-2010-08-05T18:09:00.000Z-David_R._Ingham-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:09, 5 August 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tomeasy-2010-08-05T18:09:00.000Z-David_R._Ingham-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tomeasy-2010-08-05T18:09:00.000Z-David_R._Ingham-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Boson-2010-08-05T20:24:00.000Z-David_R._Ingham-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z"></span>See also <a href="/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#endnote_Germany" title="World War II casualties">World War II casualties#endnote Germany</a>. The matter is somewhat complicated.--<a href="/wiki/User:Boson" title="User:Boson">Boson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Boson" title="User talk:Boson">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Boson-2010-08-05T20:24:00.000Z-David_R._Ingham-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:24, 5 August 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Boson-2010-08-05T20:24:00.000Z-David_R._Ingham-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Boson-2010-08-05T20:24:00.000Z-David_R._Ingham-2010-08-05T16:47:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tomeasy-2010-08-05T20:41:00.000Z-Boson-2010-08-05T20:24:00.000Z"></span>It is complicated, but according to the table 5 millions would be below the lowest estimate already excluding ethic Germans outside Germany. So if we want to stay as easy as we are now - without source or range specified but just a link to the article containing the table - we should better write about 7 millions. <a href="/wiki/User:Tomeasy" title="User:Tomeasy"><span style="color:#0000f1;font-family:Papyrus;cursor:help"><i><b>T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea</font>s</font>y</b></i></span></a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tomeasy" title="User talk:Tomeasy"> T</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tomeasy" title="Special:Contributions/Tomeasy"> C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Tomeasy-2010-08-05T20:41:00.000Z-Boson-2010-08-05T20:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:41, 5 August 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tomeasy-2010-08-05T20:41:00.000Z-Boson-2010-08-05T20:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tomeasy-2010-08-05T20:41:00.000Z-Boson-2010-08-05T20:24:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T20:45:00.000Z-Boson-2010-08-05T20:24:00.000Z"></span>Just implemented the change I proposed above. <a href="/wiki/User:Tomeasy" title="User:Tomeasy"><span style="color:#0000f1;font-family:Papyrus;cursor:help"><i><b>T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea</font>s</font>y</b></i></span></a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tomeasy" title="User talk:Tomeasy"> T</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tomeasy" title="Special:Contributions/Tomeasy"> C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T20:45:00.000Z-Boson-2010-08-05T20:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:45, 21 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T20:45:00.000Z-Boson-2010-08-05T20:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T20:45:00.000Z-Boson-2010-08-05T20:24:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Page_Protection_Needed" data-mw-thread-id="h-Page_Protection_Needed-2010-08-19T15:40:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Page_Protection_Needed-2010-08-19T15:40:00.000Z"></span>Page Protection Needed<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Page_Protection_Needed-2010-08-19T15:40:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-92.67.82.67-2010-10-08T08:46:00.000Z-Page_Protection_Needed"></span>Best nice country, soms nice chicks jwzzzzzz.</b> <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/92.67.82.67" title="Special:Contributions/92.67.82.67">92.67.82.67</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:92.67.82.67" title="User talk:92.67.82.67">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-92.67.82.67-2010-10-08T08:46:00.000Z-Page_Protection_Needed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:46, 8 October 2010 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-92.67.82.67-2010-10-08T08:46:00.000Z-Page_Protection_Needed"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-92.67.82.67-2010-10-08T08:46:00.000Z-Page_Protection_Needed"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-78.53.4.205-2010-08-19T15:40:00.000Z-Page_Protection_Needed"></span>This article suffers from ongoing vandalism and spam. Every day several times, it does not stop. Where are the responsible editors to initiate semi protection. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/78.53.4.205" title="Special:Contributions/78.53.4.205">78.53.4.205</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:78.53.4.205" title="User talk:78.53.4.205">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-78.53.4.205-2010-08-19T15:40:00.000Z-Page_Protection_Needed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:40, 19 August 2010 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-78.53.4.205-2010-08-19T15:40:00.000Z-Page_Protection_Needed"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-78.53.4.205-2010-08-19T15:40:00.000Z-Page_Protection_Needed"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Category:_Established_in_...." data-mw-thread-id="h-Category:_Established_in_....-2010-08-21T21:42:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Category:_Established_in_....-2010-08-21T21:42:00.000Z"></span>Category: Established in ....<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Category:_Established_in_....-2010-08-21T21:42:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MikeAtari-2010-08-21T21:42:00.000Z-Category:_Established_in_...."></span>I've changed it from 1291 to 1871. Don't know how it comes to 1291, there was no really significant event in Germany's history, except maybe the death of Emperor Rudolf I and the formation of the Swiss Confederation in the south of the Empire. Since the Holy Roman Empire can't be seen as a "state" or "nation" from a present-day perspective (especially after 1648), and the Rhine Confederation and German Confederation were certainly not states but rather confederations, as their names say, the first state was established on 1 July 1867 with the North German Confederation as a federal state (Confederation from 23 August 1866 to 30 June 1867) and as German Empire on 18 January 1871 with the unification with the southern states. <a href="/wiki/User:MikeAtari" title="User:MikeAtari">MikeAtari</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MikeAtari" title="User talk:MikeAtari">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-MikeAtari-2010-08-21T21:42:00.000Z-Category:_Established_in_...." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:42, 21 August 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MikeAtari-2010-08-21T21:42:00.000Z-Category:_Established_in_...."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MikeAtari-2010-08-21T21:42:00.000Z-Category:_Established_in_...."></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Template_grouping" data-mw-thread-id="h-Template_grouping-2010-09-08T20:52:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Template_grouping-2010-09-08T20:52:00.000Z"></span>Template grouping<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Template_grouping-2010-09-08T20:52:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tbacker-2010-09-08T20:52:00.000Z-Template_grouping"></span>There are many templates within the container 'Articles related to Germany' at the bottom of the page. I suggest you either group them within this container or group them on the top level and omit the generic 'Articles related to Germany'-container. I would put the 'Germany' template on the same level as the major template groupings. Suggestions are: </p> <ul><li>Geographic locale (containing Countries of Europe, Countries bordering the Baltic Sea, ...)</li> <li>International membership (containing European Union, G-20 major economies, Council of Europe,...)</li> <li>...</li></ul> <p>This way you can add even more usefull templates when needed, while keeping everything nice and tidy. <a href="/wiki/User:Tbacker" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Tbacker">Tbacker</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tbacker" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Tbacker">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Tbacker-2010-09-08T20:52:00.000Z-Template_grouping" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:52, 8 September 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tbacker-2010-09-08T20:52:00.000Z-Template_grouping"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tbacker-2010-09-08T20:52:00.000Z-Template_grouping"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tbacker-2010-10-23T19:10:00.000Z-Tbacker-2010-09-08T20:52:00.000Z"></span><span class="nowrap"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/18px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="18" height="18" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/27px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/36px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span><b> Done</b></span>--<a href="/wiki/User:Tbacker" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Tbacker">Tbacker</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tbacker" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Tbacker">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Tbacker-2010-10-23T19:10:00.000Z-Tbacker-2010-09-08T20:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tbacker-2010-10-23T19:10:00.000Z-Tbacker-2010-09-08T20:52:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tbacker-2010-10-23T19:10:00.000Z-Tbacker-2010-09-08T20:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="german_population" data-mw-thread-id="h-german_population-2010-09-21T22:22:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-german_population-2010-09-21T22:22:00.000Z"></span>german population<span data-mw-comment-end="h-german_population-2010-09-21T22:22:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Muskydusky-2010-09-21T22:22:00.000Z-german_population"></span>14th largest not twelth <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/User:Muskydusky" title="User:Muskydusky">Muskydusky</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Muskydusky" title="User talk:Muskydusky">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Muskydusky" title="Special:Contributions/Muskydusky">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Muskydusky-2010-09-21T22:22:00.000Z-german_population" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)</a></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Muskydusky-2010-09-21T22:22:00.000Z-german_population"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Muskydusky-2010-09-21T22:22:00.000Z-german_population"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Boson-2010-09-21T23:10:00.000Z-Muskydusky-2010-09-21T22:22:00.000Z"></span><span class="nowrap"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/18px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="18" height="18" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/27px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/36px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span><b> Done</b></span>--<a href="/wiki/User:Boson" title="User:Boson">Boson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Boson" title="User talk:Boson">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Boson-2010-09-21T23:10:00.000Z-Muskydusky-2010-09-21T22:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:10, 21 September 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Boson-2010-09-21T23:10:00.000Z-Muskydusky-2010-09-21T22:22:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Boson-2010-09-21T23:10:00.000Z-Muskydusky-2010-09-21T22:22:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Discussion_of_music" data-mw-thread-id="h-Discussion_of_music-2010-10-03T09:35:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Discussion_of_music-2010-10-03T09:35:00.000Z"></span>Discussion of music<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Discussion_of_music-2010-10-03T09:35:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-84.63.46.129-2010-10-03T09:35:00.000Z-Discussion_of_music"></span>There is grouped into one line the musical examples of Beethoven, also Kraftwerk (!) and Rammstein (!!!) I guess one should form separate lines. Otherwise one could get the impression that Beethoven and Rammstein have anything in common. Beethoven would certainly feel insulted if he would see his name in a seemingly logical evolutionary line with Rammstein. And I personally think, too, that this is misleading. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/84.63.46.129" title="Special:Contributions/84.63.46.129">84.63.46.129</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:84.63.46.129&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:84.63.46.129 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-84.63.46.129-2010-10-03T09:35:00.000Z-Discussion_of_music" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:35, 3 October 2010 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-84.63.46.129-2010-10-03T09:35:00.000Z-Discussion_of_music"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-84.63.46.129-2010-10-03T09:35:00.000Z-Discussion_of_music"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TuxFighter-2010-10-14T23:55:00.000Z-84.63.46.129-2010-10-03T09:35:00.000Z"></span>Hello I am from Germany, I agree that Rammstein really is only one specific genre and is fare away from met the requirements to get listed here.<a href="/wiki/User:TuxFighter" title="User:TuxFighter">TuxFighter</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TuxFighter" title="User talk:TuxFighter">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-TuxFighter-2010-10-14T23:55:00.000Z-84.63.46.129-2010-10-03T09:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TuxFighter-2010-10-14T23:55:00.000Z-84.63.46.129-2010-10-03T09:35:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TuxFighter-2010-10-14T23:55:00.000Z-84.63.46.129-2010-10-03T09:35:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-16T18:31:00.000Z-Discussion_of_music"></span>Rammstein is globally the most successful and most well known band of the last 2 decades originating from Germany with lyrics written in German. <a href="/wiki/User:KarlMathiessen" title="User:KarlMathiessen">KarlMathiessen</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarlMathiessen" title="User talk:KarlMathiessen">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-16T18:31:00.000Z-Discussion_of_music" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:31, 16 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-16T18:31:00.000Z-Discussion_of_music"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-16T18:31:00.000Z-Discussion_of_music"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Culture_in_introduction" data-mw-thread-id="h-Culture_in_introduction-2010-10-06T12:10:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Culture_in_introduction-2010-10-06T12:10:00.000Z"></span>Culture in introduction<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Culture_in_introduction-2010-10-06T12:10:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Italiano111-2010-10-06T12:10:00.000Z-Culture_in_introduction"></span>Why is the culture of Germany not part of the introduction ? <a href="/wiki/User:Italiano111" title="User:Italiano111">Italiano111</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Italiano111" title="User talk:Italiano111">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Italiano111-2010-10-06T12:10:00.000Z-Culture_in_introduction" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:10, 6 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Italiano111-2010-10-06T12:10:00.000Z-Culture_in_introduction"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Italiano111-2010-10-06T12:10:00.000Z-Culture_in_introduction"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T20:32:00.000Z-Italiano111-2010-10-06T12:10:00.000Z"></span>The introduction, or lead section, is a very prominent part of the article that summarizes briefly only the most relevant facts treated in the later sections. Now, there is a decent section on culture which would merit some mentioning in the lead. However, it seems that the authors of the lead still thought that other facts were more important. As the lead is already long, I think we should not always try to shorten it before we add new material. You can propose such a change, but it is likely to imagine that the necessary deletion of other content will cause opposition. <a href="/wiki/User:Tomeasy" title="User:Tomeasy"><span style="color:#0000f1;font-family:Papyrus;cursor:help"><i><b>T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea</font>s</font>y</b></i></span></a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tomeasy" title="User talk:Tomeasy"> T</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tomeasy" title="Special:Contributions/Tomeasy"> C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T20:32:00.000Z-Italiano111-2010-10-06T12:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:32, 21 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T20:32:00.000Z-Italiano111-2010-10-06T12:10:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T20:32:00.000Z-Italiano111-2010-10-06T12:10:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Scottish_emigration" data-mw-thread-id="h-Scottish_emigration-2010-10-08T19:27:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Scottish_emigration-2010-10-08T19:27:00.000Z"></span>Scottish emigration<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Scottish_emigration-2010-10-08T19:27:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Highlandist-2010-10-08T19:27:00.000Z-Scottish_emigration"></span>I have not yet an academic source, but I think that there should be an article on the Scottish emigration in Germany in the 19th century. There were not numerous, but this fact has existed.--<a href="/wiki/User:Highlandist" title="User:Highlandist">Highlandist</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Highlandist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Highlandist (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Highlandist-2010-10-08T19:27:00.000Z-Scottish_emigration" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:27, 8 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Highlandist-2010-10-08T19:27:00.000Z-Scottish_emigration"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Highlandist-2010-10-08T19:27:00.000Z-Scottish_emigration"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T20:27:00.000Z-Highlandist-2010-10-08T19:27:00.000Z"></span>Do you mean emigration or immigration? Can you provide source, so one can compare the scale of this movement to other movements mentioned in the article. <a href="/wiki/User:Tomeasy" title="User:Tomeasy"><span style="color:#0000f1;font-family:Papyrus;cursor:help"><i><b>T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea</font>s</font>y</b></i></span></a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tomeasy" title="User talk:Tomeasy"> T</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tomeasy" title="Special:Contributions/Tomeasy"> C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T20:27:00.000Z-Highlandist-2010-10-08T19:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:27, 21 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T20:27:00.000Z-Highlandist-2010-10-08T19:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tomeasy-2010-10-21T20:27:00.000Z-Highlandist-2010-10-08T19:27:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Edit_request_from_Defo10,_22_October_2010" data-mw-thread-id="h-Edit_request_from_Defo10,_22_October_2010-2010-10-22T18:19:00.000Z"><span id="Edit_request_from_Defo10.2C_22_October_2010"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Edit_request_from_Defo10,_22_October_2010-2010-10-22T18:19:00.000Z"></span>Edit request from Defo10, 22 October 2010<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Edit_request_from_Defo10,_22_October_2010-2010-10-22T18:19:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span class="nowrap"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Defo10-2010-10-22T18:19:00.000Z-Edit_request_from_Defo10,_22_October_2010"></span>{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Edit_semi-protected" title="Template:Edit semi-protected">edit semi-protected</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> in the first sentence the writer wrote that germany is in western europe but it's wrong, germany is in middle europe </p><p><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Defo10&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Defo10 (page does not exist)">Defo10</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Defo10&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Defo10 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Defo10-2010-10-22T18:19:00.000Z-Edit_request_from_Defo10,_22_October_2010" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Defo10-2010-10-22T18:19:00.000Z-Edit_request_from_Defo10,_22_October_2010"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Defo10-2010-10-22T18:19:00.000Z-Edit_request_from_Defo10,_22_October_2010"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blue-Haired_Lawyer-2010-10-22T19:07:00.000Z-Defo10-2010-10-22T18:19:00.000Z"></span>Germany is widely accepted as being part of Western Europe. — <a href="/wiki/User:Blue-Haired_Lawyer" title="User:Blue-Haired Lawyer">Blue-Haired Lawyer</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blue-Haired_Lawyer" title="User talk:Blue-Haired Lawyer">t</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Blue-Haired_Lawyer-2010-10-22T19:07:00.000Z-Defo10-2010-10-22T18:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:07, 22 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blue-Haired_Lawyer-2010-10-22T19:07:00.000Z-Defo10-2010-10-22T18:19:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blue-Haired_Lawyer-2010-10-22T19:07:00.000Z-Defo10-2010-10-22T18:19:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Information_on_ethnic_groups_challenged" data-mw-thread-id="h-Information_on_ethnic_groups_challenged-2010-10-22T23:26:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Information_on_ethnic_groups_challenged-2010-10-22T23:26:00.000Z"></span>Information on ethnic groups challenged<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Information_on_ethnic_groups_challenged-2010-10-22T23:26:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-122.117.55.169-2010-10-22T23:26:00.000Z-Information_on_ethnic_groups_challenged"></span>There is a mistake regarding ethnic groups in Germany- </p><p>in the article it says that 91.5% of the people in Germany are ethnic Germans. It is rather that 91.5% of the people in German hold a German passport. </p><p>If you see the statement "In 2009, 20% of the population had immigrant roots" later in the article, it becomes obvious that the "91.5% of the people in Germany are ethnic Germans" sentence can't be a correct statement. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/122.117.55.169" title="Special:Contributions/122.117.55.169">122.117.55.169</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:122.117.55.169&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:122.117.55.169 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-122.117.55.169-2010-10-22T23:26:00.000Z-Information_on_ethnic_groups_challenged" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:26, 22 October 2010 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-122.117.55.169-2010-10-22T23:26:00.000Z-Information_on_ethnic_groups_challenged"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-122.117.55.169-2010-10-22T23:26:00.000Z-Information_on_ethnic_groups_challenged"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Boson-2010-10-23T11:03:00.000Z-122.117.55.169-2010-10-22T23:26:00.000Z"></span>The information in the infobox is sourced to the CIA factbook. I have checked that this information is still up to date. It is, but the CIA does not give the source of this information. It may be difficult to obtain authoritative information, because official statistics do not normally include ethnicity. The <i>Statistische Bundesamt</i> does have information showing that about 19.2% of the population have a "migrant background" (they or there parents were immigrants, possibly including some ethnic Germans who "returned" after 1949). There is information on current or previous nationality for this group: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/Internet/DE/Content/Statistiken/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/Migrationshintergrund/Tabellen/Content100/MigrationshintergrundStaatsangehoerigkeit,templateId=renderPrint.psml">http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/Internet/DE/Content/Statistiken/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/Migrationshintergrund/Tabellen/Content100/MigrationshintergrundStaatsangehoerigkeit,templateId=renderPrint.psml</a></dd> <dd>but this is not the same as "ethnic group".</dd> <dd>Since the information in the infobox is clearly incorrect/misleading, I would suggest removing it completely and adding a comment (and possibly a footnote) explaining why. The term "immigrant roots" should also be changed, as it is vague and implies a longer term than "immigrant background" (which is well defined). --<a href="/wiki/User:Boson" title="User:Boson">Boson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Boson" title="User talk:Boson">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Boson-2010-10-23T11:03:00.000Z-122.117.55.169-2010-10-22T23:26:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:03, 23 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Boson-2010-10-23T11:03:00.000Z-122.117.55.169-2010-10-22T23:26:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Boson-2010-10-23T11:03:00.000Z-122.117.55.169-2010-10-22T23:26:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="European_Court_of_Justice" data-mw-thread-id="h-European_Court_of_Justice-2010-10-26T05:28:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-European_Court_of_Justice-2010-10-26T05:28:00.000Z"></span>European Court of Justice<span data-mw-comment-end="h-European_Court_of_Justice-2010-10-26T05:28:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-98.228.231.103-2010-10-26T05:28:00.000Z-European_Court_of_Justice"></span>Why is there a picture of the European Court of Justice associated with this article? The European Court of Justice is in Luxembourg, which is a country separate from Germany. Moreover, the relevance of the image is not explained in the narrative. I can imagine why the image would be relevant to the discussion of the EU, but to one of Germany? I suggest that the image be removed. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/98.228.231.103" title="Special:Contributions/98.228.231.103">98.228.231.103</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:98.228.231.103&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:98.228.231.103 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-98.228.231.103-2010-10-26T05:28:00.000Z-European_Court_of_Justice" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-98.228.231.103-2010-10-26T05:28:00.000Z-European_Court_of_Justice"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-98.228.231.103-2010-10-26T05:28:00.000Z-European_Court_of_Justice"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z-European_Court_of_Justice"></span>Germany underlies EU law and EU jurisdiction. I amended the caption to avoid irritation. <a href="/wiki/User:KarlMathiessen" title="User:KarlMathiessen">KarlMathiessen</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarlMathiessen" title="User talk:KarlMathiessen">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z-European_Court_of_Justice" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:44, 26 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z-European_Court_of_Justice"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z-European_Court_of_Justice"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GermanJoe-2010-10-26T16:53:00.000Z-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z"></span>I agree, the relevance of this image needed clarification, but technically EU law is <i>not</i> "part of" Germany's jurisdiction. They still are two separate legal jurisdictions (national cases usually can't be appealed on EU level for example), with a precedence of EU law where applicable. Some national jurisdictions also assume, that EU law can't override basic national constitutional rights as the EU still consists of it's separate Member states. Probably the image should really be removed, as it's relevance for Germany as article focus is minor. <a href="/wiki/User:GermanJoe" title="User:GermanJoe">GermanJoe</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GermanJoe" title="User talk:GermanJoe">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-GermanJoe-2010-10-26T16:53:00.000Z-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:53, 26 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GermanJoe-2010-10-26T16:53:00.000Z-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GermanJoe-2010-10-26T16:53:00.000Z-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Boson-2010-10-26T20:34:00.000Z-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z"></span>I agree that the image is not sufficiently relevant.--<a href="/wiki/User:Boson" title="User:Boson">Boson</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Boson" title="User talk:Boson">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Boson-2010-10-26T20:34:00.000Z-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:34, 26 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Boson-2010-10-26T20:34:00.000Z-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Boson-2010-10-26T20:34:00.000Z-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blue-Haired_Lawyer-2010-10-26T20:43:00.000Z-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z"></span>I also agree. Even if national court decisions could be appealed to the ECJ the photo would still not be sufficiently relevant to an article on Germany. An article on <a href="/wiki/Maine" title="Maine">Maine</a> is highly unlikely to include a photo on the US Supreme court building, legal niceties notwithstanding. — <a href="/wiki/User:Blue-Haired_Lawyer" title="User:Blue-Haired Lawyer">Blue-Haired Lawyer</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blue-Haired_Lawyer" title="User talk:Blue-Haired Lawyer">t</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Blue-Haired_Lawyer-2010-10-26T20:43:00.000Z-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blue-Haired_Lawyer-2010-10-26T20:43:00.000Z-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blue-Haired_Lawyer-2010-10-26T20:43:00.000Z-KarlMathiessen-2010-10-26T12:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article" data-mw-thread-id="h-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article-2010-11-05T16:23:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article-2010-11-05T16:23:00.000Z"></span>Editions and removals in a featured article<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article-2010-11-05T16:23:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T16:23:00.000Z-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article"></span>A featured article is featured article because it has already reached a high level of quality. Consequently it`s reasonable to be careful with major editions or removals of established(!) parts of the article. I like to give you a vivid example of what I`m talking about: </p><p>Three years ago (or so) I`ve written a part of "German culture" chapter. The purpose of this contribution was to make an end of the long and heated "was-mozart-german" (etc) debates by finding a compromise. The idea was to explain the reader some basic historic backgrounds briefly instead of debating each singular case (Mozart, Kafka etc.). This contribution has been part of the article ever since (and it has been often copied..) Lately it has been rewritten: "<i>As a result German traditions have to be seen in a larger framework of European high culture, Western popculture and globally connected subculture.</i>[sic!]" </p> <dl><dd>a.) Why not taking a look at the talk-page archives: Maybe there is a good reason why established parts of an article are written in specfic way and contain certain statements. (I like to think this is the purpose of the archives)</dd> <dd>b.) Rewriting a sentence is good as long as the sentence still makes senses and fits into the rest of the text. (To stay with the example: I question that the <i>traditions</i> of german culture have to be "seen in the framework of western popculture"...)</dd> <dd>c.) Editions should be sourced - with a valid reference.</dd></dl> <p>Thank you --<a href="/wiki/User:Sushi_Leone" title="User:Sushi Leone">Sushi Leone</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sushi_Leone" title="User talk:Sushi Leone">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T16:23:00.000Z-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:23, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T16:23:00.000Z-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T16:23:00.000Z-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-11-05T17:14:00.000Z-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article"></span>There was no major removal. A small trim has occurred concerning a sentence about Mozart, Kafka etc. This content seemed to be a redundant sidenote. In a perspective of a brief introduction it serves no purpose. And yes, of course, Germany like the whole of western Europe is part of Western popculture. This is not even a controversial statement. <a href="/wiki/User:KarlMathiessen" title="User:KarlMathiessen">KarlMathiessen</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:KarlMathiessen" title="User talk:KarlMathiessen">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-KarlMathiessen-2010-11-05T17:14:00.000Z-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:14, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-11-05T17:14:00.000Z-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-KarlMathiessen-2010-11-05T17:14:00.000Z-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article"></span>You are not the one to dicide which explanation is a relevant and which is not. I think these information are very interesting. If it was a redundant "sidenote" I wonder in which part of the article you could get simular information? And I`m repeating myself: This matter was the subject of long debates - so it can`t be that irrelevant. More than that: I`ve written large parts of the introduction of this chapter which was (and to some extend still is) a component of this article over the years. I don`t have to proof anything - YOU have to proof that your edition is bettering the article. (BTW: TRADITION and popculture are almost contrary terms. Popculture is a part of contemporary(!) German [youth]culture - but that is a different thing):</dd></dl> <p>I`m a man of compromise, I have added the "popculture aspect" - but if you want to remove interesting information, please give me some good reasons (and good sources). Otherwise we will waste our time with a useless "revision war". :Thanks --<a href="/wiki/User:Sushi_Leone" title="User:Sushi Leone">Sushi Leone</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sushi_Leone" title="User talk:Sushi Leone">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:38, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z-Editions_and_removals_in_a_featured_article"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tomeasy-2010-11-05T19:45:00.000Z-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z"></span>"[...] German traditions have to be seen in a larger framework of [...] Western popculture" sounds nonsensical to me. Popculture is a modern thing, while traditions have developed long time in the past, sometimes stretching int modern times. So, when you want to understand traditions, popculture is less important than many things, e.g., medieval Western culture. <a href="/wiki/User:Tomeasy" title="User:Tomeasy"><span style="color:#0000f1;font-family:Papyrus;cursor:help"><i><b>T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea</font>s</font>y</b></i></span></a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tomeasy" title="User talk:Tomeasy"> T</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tomeasy" title="Special:Contributions/Tomeasy"> C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Tomeasy-2010-11-05T19:45:00.000Z-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tomeasy-2010-11-05T19:45:00.000Z-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tomeasy-2010-11-05T19:45:00.000Z-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tomeasy-2010-11-05T19:49:00.000Z-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z"></span>BTW, I reinstalled the old version and fixed a problem with the reference attached to the statement disputed here. The link did not work (at least for me). When I read the source, I also found that Sushi's version was better supported by the source than the version that Karl advocates. <a href="/wiki/User:Tomeasy" title="User:Tomeasy"><span style="color:#0000f1;font-family:Papyrus;cursor:help"><i><b>T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea</font>s</font>y</b></i></span></a><sub><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tomeasy" title="User talk:Tomeasy"> T</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tomeasy" title="Special:Contributions/Tomeasy"> C</a></sub> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Tomeasy-2010-11-05T19:49:00.000Z-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tomeasy-2010-11-05T19:49:00.000Z-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tomeasy-2010-11-05T19:49:00.000Z-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T20:32:00.000Z-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z"></span>Thank you Tomeasy. Dear KarlMathiessen I want to make sure that this thing is not about winning or losing. I do resprect your work here on wikipedia (like I do resprect all the other people that spend their spare time to contribute something). As I`ve mentioned before: This part of the article was the result of long discussions and it explains some very interesting specifics of German culture and its roots. That is the reason why I´m so precious about it. The average reader is probably not familiar with those aspects of German culture and might like to learn about them - and exactly this is the purpose of wikipedia. --<a href="/wiki/User:Sushi_Leone" title="User:Sushi Leone">Sushi Leone</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sushi_Leone" title="User talk:Sushi Leone">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germany#c-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T20:32:00.000Z-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:32, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T20:32:00.000Z-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T20:32:00.000Z-Sushi_Leone-2010-11-05T19:38:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; 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