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innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Waricon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/25px-Waricon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/38px-Waricon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/50px-Waricon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="140" data-file-height="140"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history">Military history</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Military" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Military">Biography</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/European_military_history_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/European military history task force">European</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/French_military_history_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/French military history task force">French</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/World_War_I_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/World War I task force">World War I</a></span> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Waricon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/50px-Waricon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/75px-Waricon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/100px-Waricon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="140" data-file-height="140"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history">Military history WikiProject</a></b>. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Open_tasks" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Open tasks">list of open tasks</a>. To use this banner, please see the <a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Military_history" title="Template:WikiProject Military history">full instructions</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Military history</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Military history</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">military history articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess-b" style="padding-bottom:5px"><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment/B-Class_criteria" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment/B-Class criteria"><img alt="B checklist" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Bclass-checklist.svg/20px-Bclass-checklist.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Bclass-checklist.svg/30px-Bclass-checklist.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Bclass-checklist.svg/40px-Bclass-checklist.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="100" data-file-height="100"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="wpb-collapsed-notes"><table class="plainlinks mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><tbody><tr><th class="wpb-collapsed-head mbox-text" colspan="3" style="font-weight:normal">This article has been checked against the following <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Assessment#Quality_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment">criteria</a></b> for B-class status:</th><td style="min-width:3em"></td></tr><tr><td style="font-size:90%"><ol><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/16px-Red_x.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/24px-Red_x.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/32px-Red_x.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Referencing and citation: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion not met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Coverage and accuracy: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Structure: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Grammar and style: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Supporting materials: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li></ol></td><td style="font-size:88%"></td><td class="empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" class="wpb-collapsed-notes"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><tbody><tr><th colspan="3" class="wpb-collapsed-head">Associated task forces:</th></tr><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-gutter" style="min-width:50px"><span class="wpb-iefix">/ </span></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/30px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/45px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/60px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Military" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Military">Military biography task force</a></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Europe_satellite_globe.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Europe_satellite_globe.jpg/34px-Europe_satellite_globe.jpg" decoding="async" width="34" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Europe_satellite_globe.jpg/51px-Europe_satellite_globe.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Europe_satellite_globe.jpg/68px-Europe_satellite_globe.jpg 2x" data-file-width="800" data-file-height="704"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/European_military_history_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/European military history task force">European military history task force</a></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:France_Ancient.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/France_Ancient.svg/25px-France_Ancient.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/France_Ancient.svg/37px-France_Ancient.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/France_Ancient.svg/50px-France_Ancient.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="360" data-file-height="432"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/French_military_history_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/French military history task force">French military history task force</a></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Vickers_machine_gun_in_the_Battle_of_Passchendaele_-_September_1917.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Vickers_machine_gun_in_the_Battle_of_Passchendaele_-_September_1917.jpg/42px-Vickers_machine_gun_in_the_Battle_of_Passchendaele_-_September_1917.jpg" decoding="async" width="42" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Vickers_machine_gun_in_the_Battle_of_Passchendaele_-_September_1917.jpg/62px-Vickers_machine_gun_in_the_Battle_of_Passchendaele_-_September_1917.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Vickers_machine_gun_in_the_Battle_of_Passchendaele_-_September_1917.jpg/83px-Vickers_machine_gun_in_the_Battle_of_Passchendaele_-_September_1917.jpg 2x" data-file-width="3433" data-file-height="2480"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/World_War_I_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/World War I task force">World War I task force</a></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/25px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/38px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/50px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography">Biography</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Military" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Military">Military</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Politics_and_government" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Politics and government">Politics and Government</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Royalty_and_Nobility" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility">Royalty and Nobility</a></span> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/60px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="60" height="60" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/90px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/120px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1259569809">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 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For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the <a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Biography/doc" title="Template:WikiProject Biography/doc">documentation</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Biography</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Biography</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">biography articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Swords.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Swords.svg/25px-Swords.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Swords.svg/38px-Swords.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Swords.svg/50px-Swords.svg.png 2x" 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//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/50px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="160" data-file-height="160"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Politics_and_government" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Politics and government">the politics and government work group</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_biography_(politics_and_government)_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance biography (politics and government) articles">Mid-importance</a>).</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:CrownForShield.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/CrownForShield.svg/23px-CrownForShield.svg.png" decoding="async" width="23" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/CrownForShield.svg/36px-CrownForShield.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/CrownForShield.svg/47px-CrownForShield.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="77" data-file-height="82"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Royalty_and_Nobility" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility">WikiProject Royalty and Nobility</a></b>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_France.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/35px-Flag_of_France.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/53px-Flag_of_France.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/70px-Flag_of_France.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_France" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject France">France</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-high">High‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_France.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/50px-Flag_of_France.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="33" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/75px-Flag_of_France.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/100px-Flag_of_France.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/32px-Flag_of_France.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/48px-Flag_of_France.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/64px-Flag_of_France.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:France" title="Portal:France">France portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_France" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject France">WikiProject France</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/France" title="France">France</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_France" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject France">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">France</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject France</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject France</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">France articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-high"><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_France_articles" title="Category:High-importance France articles">High</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>High-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_France/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject France/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:A_coloured_voting_box.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/25px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/38px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/50px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="160" data-file-height="160"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Politics" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics">Politics</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-low">Low‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:A_coloured_voting_box.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/50px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/75px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/100px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="160" data-file-height="160"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:A_coloured_voting_box.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/28px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png" decoding="async" width="28" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/42px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/A_coloured_voting_box.svg/56px-A_coloured_voting_box.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="160" data-file-height="160"/></a></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Politics" title="Portal:Politics">Politics portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Politics" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics">WikiProject Politics</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Politics" title="Politics">politics</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Politics" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Politics</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Politics</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">politics articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-low"><a href="/wiki/Category:Low-importance_politics_articles" title="Category:Low-importance politics articles">Low</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Low-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Politics/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span class="mw-image-border" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Morocco.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/35px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/53px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/70px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Morocco" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Morocco">Morocco</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-high">High‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span class="mw-image-border" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Morocco.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/80px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="53" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/120px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/160px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/32px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/48px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/64px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Morocco" title="Portal:Morocco">Morocco portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Morocco" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Morocco">WikiProject Morocco</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Morocco" title="Morocco">Morocco</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Morocco" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Morocco">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Morocco</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Morocco</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Morocco</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Morocco articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-high"><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_Morocco_articles" title="Category:High-importance Morocco articles">High</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>High-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Morocco/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Morocco/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" style="padding:0"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="background:transparent;width:100%"><tbody><tr><th style="text-align:left;padding:0.2em 2px 0.2em 0">Help expand the project:</th></tr><tr><td style="text-align:left;padding:5px;background-color:white;border:1px solid #c0c090;margin-top:5px"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1129693374">.mw-parser-output .hlist dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul{margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt,.mw-parser-output .hlist li{margin:0;display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ul{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist .mw-empty-li{display:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dt::after{content:": "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li::after{content:" · ";font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li:last-child::after{content:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:first-child::before{content:" (";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:last-child::after{content:")";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol{counter-reset:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li{counter-increment:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li::before{content:" "counter(listitem)"\a0 "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li ol>li:first-child::before{content:" ("counter(listitem)"\a0 "}</style><div class="hlist plainlinks" style="text-align:center;font-size:90%;"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Morocco%2Fto_do&action=edit">edit</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Morocco%2Fto_do&action=history">history</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Morocco%2Fto_do&action=watch">watch</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Morocco%2Fto_do&action=purge">purge</a></li></ul> </div> <p><b>You can help! <span title="Arabic-language text"><span lang="ar" dir="rtl">يمكنكم أن تساهموا</span></span></b> <br/> </p> <table style="background:none;color:inherit;width:auto;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="vertical-align:top;"> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/50px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/75px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/100px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span><br/><div style="width: 55px; height: 0px;"></div> </td> <td> <div style="position: relative; left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; z-index: 15;">Here are some tasks awaiting attention: <ul style="font-size: 100%; margin: 0px; padding: 0.3em 0px 0.3em 25px;"> <li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles" title="Wikipedia:Requested articles">Article requests</a></i> :</b> <a href="/w/index.php?title=Mounir_Char%C3%AFbi&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Mounir Charïbi (page does not exist)">Mounir Charïbi</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">Assess</a></i> :</b> Rate the <a href="/wiki/Category:Unassessed_Morocco_articles" title="Category:Unassessed Morocco articles">Unassessed Morocco articles</a> and <a href="/wiki/Category:Unknown-importance_Morocco_articles" title="Category:Unknown-importance Morocco articles">Unknown-importance Morocco-related articles</a>.</li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Cleanup" title="Wikipedia:Cleanup">Cleanup</a></i> :</b> <a class="external text" href="https://tools.wmflabs.org/bambots/cwb/alpha/Morocco.html">Cleanup listing for this project</a> is available. See also <a class="external text" href="https://tools.wmflabs.org/bambots/cwb/bycat/Morocco.html">the list by category</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Geographical_coordinates" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Geographical coordinates">Geographical coordinates</a></i> :</b> Add geographic coordinates to articles in <a href="/wiki/Category:Morocco_articles_missing_geocoordinate_data" title="Category:Morocco articles missing geocoordinate data">Category:Morocco articles missing geocoordinate data</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_pictures" title="Wikipedia:Requested pictures">Photo</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_requested_photographs_in_Morocco" title="Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Morocco">See requested photographs in Morocco</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub" title="Wikipedia:Stub">Stubs</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Category:Morocco_stubs" title="Category:Morocco stubs">Morocco stubs</a></li><li><b><i>Other</i> :</b> <br/> <ul><li><b>Translate from Arabic</b>: <a href="https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%AC_%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%85_%D8%A3%D9%85%D8%B2%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" class="extiw" title="ar:محمد الحاج سلام أمزيان">Sellam Ameziane</a>, <a href="https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A%D9%87_%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%87" class="extiw" title="ar:مربيه ربه">Mrebih Rebbu</a></li></ul> </li></ul> </div> </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span class="mw-image-border" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg/35px-Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="17" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg/53px-Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg/70px-Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1431" data-file-height="700"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_European_Microstates" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject European Microstates">European Microstates</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Andorra" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Andorra">Andorra</a></span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-high">High‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span class="mw-image-border" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg/80px-Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="39" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg/120px-Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg/160px-Flag_of_European_Microstates.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1431" data-file-height="700"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="map" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Europe_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/28px-Europe_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="28" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Europe_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/42px-Europe_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Europe_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/56px-Europe_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="541" data-file-height="541"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Europe" title="Portal:Europe">Europe portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_European_Microstates" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject European Microstates">WikiProject European Microstates</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/European_microstates" title="European microstates">European Microstates</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_European_Microstates" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject European Microstates">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">European Microstates</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject European Microstates</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject European Microstates</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">European Microstates articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-high"><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_European_Microstates_articles" title="Category:High-importance European Microstates articles">High</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>High-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_European_Microstates/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject European Microstates/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center mw-image-border" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Andorra.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Flag_of_Andorra.svg/36px-Flag_of_Andorra.svg.png" decoding="async" width="36" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Flag_of_Andorra.svg/54px-Flag_of_Andorra.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Flag_of_Andorra.svg/72px-Flag_of_Andorra.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1000" data-file-height="700"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259569809"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright" style="margin:0"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Flag_of_Andorra.svg/32px-Flag_of_Andorra.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="22" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Flag_of_Andorra.svg/48px-Flag_of_Andorra.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Flag_of_Andorra.svg/64px-Flag_of_Andorra.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1000" data-file-height="700"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Andorra" title="Portal:Andorra">Andorra portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Andorra" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Andorra">WikiProject Andorra</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_Andorra_articles" title="Category:High-importance Andorra articles">High-importance</a>).</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_date.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/45px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png" decoding="async" width="45" height="45" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/68px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Nuvola_apps_date.svg/90px-Nuvola_apps_date.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Main_Page" title="Main Page">Main Page</a> in the <i><a 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//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/80px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256386598">.mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#F0F2F5;color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#CCFFCC;color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-mainspace{background:#14181F;color:inherit}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cot-header-other{background:#003500;color:inherit}}</style> <div style="margin-left:0"> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-archivedtalk mw-collapsed" style="color:inherit; background: transparent; text-align: left; border: 1px solid Silver; margin: 0.2em auto auto; width:100%; clear: both; padding: 1px;"> <tbody><tr> <th class="cot-header-other" style="background:#F0F2F5; font-size:87%; padding:0.2em 0.3em; text-align:center; color:#202122"><div style="font-size:115%;margin:0 4em">Section sizes</div> </th></tr> <tr> <td style="color:inherit; border: solid 1px Silver; padding: 0.6em; background: var(--background-color-base, #fff);"> <table class="wikitable sortable" style=""> <caption>Section size for <a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain" title="Philippe Pétain">Philippe Pétain</a> (43 sections) </caption> <tbody><tr> <th>Section name</th> <th>Byte<br/>count</th> <th>Section<br/>total </th></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#(Top)" title="Philippe Pétain">(Top)</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F81E1E;">6,541</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F89C9C;font-weight:bold;">6,541 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Early_life" title="Philippe Pétain">Early life</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B2B2;">2,163</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DBDB;font-weight:bold;">2,163 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Early_military_career" title="Philippe Pétain">Early military career</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F89F9F;">2,702</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D3D3;font-weight:bold;">2,702 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#First_World_War" title="Philippe Pétain">First World War</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F7F7;">118</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F88585;font-weight:bold;">8,145 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Beginning_of_war" title="Philippe Pétain">Beginning of war</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DCDC;">910</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">910 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Battle_of_Verdun" title="Philippe Pétain">Battle of Verdun</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8BEBE;">1,791</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,791 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Mutiny" title="Philippe Pétain">Mutiny</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8AFAF;">2,252</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,252 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#End_of_World_War_I" title="Philippe Pétain">End of World War I</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F89393;">3,074</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,074 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Interwar_period" title="Philippe Pétain">Interwar period</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;">21</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F81B1B;font-weight:bold;">15,441 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Respected_hero_of_France" title="Philippe Pétain">Respected hero of France</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F89B9B;">2,831</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,831 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Rif_War" title="Philippe Pétain">Rif War</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DEDE;">836</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">836 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Vocal_critic_of_defence_policy" title="Philippe Pétain">Vocal critic of defence policy</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8ADAD;">2,312</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,312 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Election_to_the_Académie_française" title="Philippe Pétain">Election to the <i>Académie française</i></a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8BCBC;">1,863</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,863 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Minister_of_War" title="Philippe Pétain">Minister of War</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B1B1;">2,180</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,180 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Critic_of_government_policy" title="Philippe Pétain">Critic of government policy</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F84545;">5,398</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">5,398 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Battle_of_France" title="Philippe Pétain">Battle of France</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;">22</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F86363;font-weight:bold;">10,486 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Return_to_government" title="Philippe Pétain">Return to government</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F87F7F;">3,660</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,660 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Fall_of_France" title="Philippe Pétain">Fall of France</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F86262;">4,536</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">4,536 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Pétain_replaces_Reynaud" title="Philippe Pétain">Pétain replaces Reynaud</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8AEAE;">2,268</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,268 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Head_of_the_French_State" title="Philippe Pétain">Head of the French State</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F8F8;">69</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:red;font-weight:bold;">17,309 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#The_armistice_of_1940" title="Philippe Pétain">The armistice of 1940</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F88D8D;">3,251</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,251 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Constitutional_change" title="Philippe Pétain">Constitutional change</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:red;">7,421</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">7,421 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#State_collaboration_with_Germany" title="Philippe Pétain">State collaboration with Germany</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F87575;">3,949</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,949 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Exile_to_Sigmaringen" title="Philippe Pétain">Exile to Sigmaringen</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8A2A2;">2,619</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,619 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Postwar_life" title="Philippe Pétain">Postwar life</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;">18</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F86E6E;font-weight:bold;">9,730 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Trial_before_the_High_Court" title="Philippe Pétain">Trial before the High Court</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F88D8D;">3,260</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">3,260 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Imprisonment" title="Philippe Pétain">Imprisonment</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8ABAB;">2,346</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,346 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Death_and_burial" title="Philippe Pétain">Death and burial</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B8B8;">1,965</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,965 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Eponymy" title="Philippe Pétain">Eponymy</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8CBCB;">1,407</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,407 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#New_York_Canyon_of_Heroes" title="Philippe Pétain">New York Canyon of Heroes</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E2E2;">734</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">734 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Personal_life" title="Philippe Pétain">Personal life</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D9D9;">991</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8ECEC;font-weight:bold;">991 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Military_ranks" title="Philippe Pétain">Military ranks</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F88181;">3,610</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8C6C6;font-weight:bold;">3,610 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Honours_and_awards" title="Philippe Pétain">Honours and awards</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;">24</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8CDCD;font-weight:bold;">3,128 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#French" title="Philippe Pétain">French</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F89B9B;">2,824</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">2,824 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Foreign" title="Philippe Pétain">Foreign</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F1F1;">280</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">280 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#See_also" title="Philippe Pétain">See also</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F2F2;">239</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F7F7;font-weight:bold;">239 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Explanatory_notes" title="Philippe Pétain">Explanatory notes</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F9F9;">37</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;font-weight:bold;">37 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#References" title="Philippe Pétain">References</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8FAFA;">16</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8EAEA;font-weight:bold;">1,120 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Citations" title="Philippe Pétain">Citations</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8F9F9;">31</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">31 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Cited_works" title="Philippe Pétain">Cited works</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8D6D6;">1,073</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">1,073 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Further_reading" title="Philippe Pétain">Further reading</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E6E6;">620</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8E6E6;font-weight:bold;">1,427 </td></tr> <tr> <td><span style="margin-left:1.6em"><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Reputation" title="Philippe Pétain">Reputation</a></span></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8DFDF;">807</td> <td style="text-align:right;color:transparent;">807 </td></tr> <tr> <td><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#External_links" title="Philippe Pétain">External links</a></td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F85252;">4,999</td> <td style="text-align:right;background:#F8B2B2;font-weight:bold;">4,999 </td></tr> <tr> <th>Total</th> <th style="text-align:right">88,068</th> <th style="text-align:right">88,068 </th></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="box-translated-page plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:WP-TranslationProject_TwoFlags.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/WP-TranslationProject_TwoFlags.svg/50px-WP-TranslationProject_TwoFlags.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/WP-TranslationProject_TwoFlags.svg/75px-WP-TranslationProject_TwoFlags.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/WP-TranslationProject_TwoFlags.svg/100px-WP-TranslationProject_TwoFlags.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="250"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">The section "<a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Exile_to_Sigmaringen" title="Philippe Pétain">Exile to Sigmaringen</a>" of this article was edited to contain a total or partial <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Translation" title="Wikipedia:Translation">translation</a> of <a class="external text" href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain?oldid=173168435">Philippe Pétain</a> from the <a class="external text" href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/">French Wikipedia</a>. Consult the <a class="external text" href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain?action=history">history of the original page</a> to see a list of its authors. <small>(This notice applies to <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philippe_P%C3%A9tain&oldid=971226015">version 971226015</a> and subsequent versions of this page.) </small></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"> <table id="archivebox" role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice mbox-small" style="text-align: center; padding: 1em;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="padding:0.6em 0 0.25em;"> <div style="width:100%; overflow:hidden;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></a></span><br/><b>Archives</b></div> </td></tr><tr> <td class="plainlinks"> <p><a href="/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain/Archive_1" title="Talk:Philippe Pétain/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain/Archive_2" title="Talk:Philippe Pétain/Archive 2">2</a> </p> </td> </tr><tr><td style="padding-bottom:11px"><div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-inputbox-input mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="22" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:Philippe Pétain/" name="prefix"/><br/><input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </td></tr><tr><td style="padding:0px 10px; font-size:11.9px;"> <hr/> This page has archives. Sections older than <b>180 days</b> may be automatically archived by <span class="nowraplinks"><a href="/wiki/User:Lowercase_sigmabot_III" title="User:Lowercase sigmabot III">Lowercase sigmabot III</a></span> when more than 6 sections are present.</td></tr> </tbody></table> <p class="mw-empty-elt"> </p> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="dutch_version" data-mw-thread-id="h-dutch_version-2006-01-05T19:54:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-dutch_version-2006-01-05T19:54:00.000Z"></span>dutch version<span data-mw-comment-end="h-dutch_version-2006-01-05T19:54:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: dutch version"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-P97dav45-2006-01-05T19:54:00.000Z-dutch_version"></span>the Dutch version has a much more complete and as far as i found out, a much better discussion, of Petains role in the First World War. If I find time I will provide a translation, though I am not a native speaker so my Duglish will need some correcting. Hugh van der Mandele, Harlingen, the Netherlands. </p><p><br/> I removed the sentence from the world war one section that stated "His advocacy of a defensive strategy contributed to the construction of the Maginot Line." Petain was most definitely not an advocate of a defensive strategy, particularly during the interwar period. He imagined an initial "soaking up" of a German attack, followed by a vigorous counterattack, and assented to the Maginot line because lack of manpower, cash, and political will made maintaining sufficient troop strength impossible. His first conception of it was a series of "lighter but unbroken prepared battlefield" (Williams, 2005). Sort of a "kill trap idea- hardly an addiction to static defence. Yet another example of this article factual difficulties. <a href="/wiki/User:P97dav45" title="User:P97dav45">p97dav45</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-P97dav45-2006-01-05T19:54:00.000Z-dutch_version" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:54, 5 January 2006‎ (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-P97dav45-2006-01-05T19:54:00.000Z-dutch_version"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-P97dav45-2006-01-05T19:54:00.000Z-dutch_version"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="New_infobox_image" data-mw-thread-id="h-New_infobox_image-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-New_infobox_image-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z"></span>New infobox image<span data-mw-comment-end="h-New_infobox_image-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: New infobox image"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-The_Image_Editor-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z-New_infobox_image"></span><figure class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File/Thumb"><a href="/wiki/File:P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg/110px-P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg" decoding="async" width="110" height="150" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg/165px-P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg/220px-P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg 2x" data-file-width="3791" data-file-height="5185"/></a><figcaption>My proposal </figcaption></figure> <p>We should change the lead image to this. It feels like more of a formal photograph, it’s clearer, it has better color balance, and it’s less messy around the edges. Thoughts? <a href="/wiki/User:The_Image_Editor" title="User:The Image Editor">The Image Editor</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:The_Image_Editor" title="User talk:The Image Editor">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-The_Image_Editor-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z-New_infobox_image" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:34, 14 November 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-The_Image_Editor-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z-New_infobox_image"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-The_Image_Editor-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z-New_infobox_image"></span> </p> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-CocoricoPolynesien-2020-11-17T12:27:00.000Z-The_Image_Editor-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z"></span>Oppose</b>: I think that the present one is actually better in every aspect you mentionned. And it is perhaps one of the most known portraying of Petain. <span style="background:royalblue;padding:3px"><span style="color:white">✦ <a href="/wiki/User:CocoricoPolynesien" title="User:CocoricoPolynesien"><span style="color:white">Cocorico Polynésien</span></a> – <a href="/wiki/User_talk:CocoricoPolynesien" title="User talk:CocoricoPolynesien"><span style="color:white"><b>✉</b></span></a> ✦</span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-CocoricoPolynesien-2020-11-17T12:27:00.000Z-The_Image_Editor-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:27, 17 November 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-CocoricoPolynesien-2020-11-17T12:27:00.000Z-The_Image_Editor-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-CocoricoPolynesien-2020-11-17T12:27:00.000Z-The_Image_Editor-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BeenAroundAWhile-2020-12-24T15:18:00.000Z-The_Image_Editor-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z"></span>Agree</b>: It is a formal photograph, it’s clearer, it has better color balance, and it’s less messy around the edges. The current image has Pétain with almost a sneer, making it less suitable for our encyclopedia. <a href="/wiki/User:BeenAroundAWhile" title="User:BeenAroundAWhile">BeenAroundAWhile</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BeenAroundAWhile" title="User talk:BeenAroundAWhile">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-BeenAroundAWhile-2020-12-24T15:18:00.000Z-The_Image_Editor-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:18, 24 December 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BeenAroundAWhile-2020-12-24T15:18:00.000Z-The_Image_Editor-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BeenAroundAWhile-2020-12-24T15:18:00.000Z-The_Image_Editor-2020-11-14T18:34:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Unverified_'I_am_your_leader'_quotation_removed" data-mw-thread-id="h-Unverified_'I_am_your_leader'_quotation_removed-2021-10-01T01:12:00.000Z"><span id="Unverified_.27I_am_your_leader.27_quotation_removed"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Unverified_'I_am_your_leader'_quotation_removed-2021-10-01T01:12:00.000Z"></span>Unverified 'I am your leader' quotation removed<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Unverified_'I_am_your_leader'_quotation_removed-2021-10-01T01:12:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Unverified 'I am your leader' quotation removed"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:12:00.000Z-Unverified_'I_am_your_leader'_quotation_removed"></span>Four articles in en-wiki including this one have the quotation, "<span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">I am, and remain morally, your leader</span>" (example from this article in context: "<span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">he maintained in a letter to the French people that 'I am, and remain morally, your leader'.</span>"). Examples include: </p> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain" title="Philippe Pétain">Philippe Pétain</a> added in rev (<a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/973249661#Sigmaringen" title="Special:Diff/973249661">973249661</a>)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Sigmaringen_enclave" title="Sigmaringen enclave">Sigmaringen enclave</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/973251288#Formation" title="Special:Diff/973251288">diff</a>)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Government_of_Vichy_France" title="Government of Vichy France">Government of Vichy France</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/975935168#Sigmaringen_enclave" title="Special:Diff/975935168">diff</a>)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Liberation_of_France" title="Liberation of France">Liberation of France</a> (<a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/976995356#End_of_Vichy" title="Special:Diff/976995356">diff</a>)</li></ul><p> All of these edits include content translated and adapted from the French article <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain" class="extiw" title="fr:Philippe Pétain">fr:Philippe Pétain</a>, where the content containing Pétain's quotation in French was originally added 00:49, 27 August 2006 by French IP user <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:83.113.203.32" class="extiw" title="fr:User:83.113.203.32">fr:83.113.203.32</a> (<a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:83.113.203.32" class="extiw" title="fr:User talk:83.113.203.32">talk</a> · <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/83.113.203.32" class="extiw" title="fr:Special:Contributions/83.113.203.32">contribs</a>) in revision <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Permalink/9635959" class="extiw" title="fr:Special:Permalink/9635959">9635959</a> (<a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/9635959" class="extiw" title="fr:Special:Diff/9635959">diff</a>), which included the following text:</p><blockquote><p> Le 20 août 1944, le Maréchal fut enlevé et emmené contre son gré à <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmaringen" class="extiw" title="fr:Sigmaringen">Sigmaringen</a> en Allemagne, où s'étaient réfugiés les dignitaires de son régime. Une fois de plus, il ne tenta pas de résister, et ne songea pas à démissionner, maintenant dans une lettre aux Français la fiction selon laquelle "je suis et demeure moralement votre chef."</p></blockquote> <p>This edit does not include any references, but in 2006 that was not unusual in en-wiki, and even less so in fr-wiki. In any case, I haven't been able to verify this quotation. There are three books I found that do contain the original French quotation word for word, but they date to 2018, 2019, and 2021, and there is surrounding content in those books that looks very similar to the surrounding context in the French article of 26 Aug. 2006; so much so, that either the books copied from the 2006 version of the French WP article, or the French article and the books are all based on a source earlier than 2006 that I have not been able to find in Google books or in Gallica. </p><p>Given this situation, I am removing this content from the four English articles listed. Thanks, <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:12:00.000Z-Unverified_'I_am_your_leader'_quotation_removed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:12, 1 October 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:12:00.000Z-Unverified_'I_am_your_leader'_quotation_removed"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:12:00.000Z-Unverified_'I_am_your_leader'_quotation_removed"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:51:00.000Z-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:12:00.000Z"></span>Done. The three books that contain this quotation are Deloeuvre (2018)<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> Lormier (2019),<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-2"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> and Lormier (2021).<sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-3"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> These are all pretty similar to French Wikipedia 2006 (<i><a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Permalink/9635959" class="extiw" title="fr:Special:Permalink/9635959">perma</a> </i>, <i><a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/9635959" class="extiw" title="fr:Special:Diff/9635959">diff</a> </i>). I see nothing in Google books prior to 2006, nor <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://catalogue.bnf.fr/rechercher.do?motRecherche=je+suis+et+demeure+moralement+votre+chef&critereRecherche=0&depart=0&facetteModifiee=ok">in Gallica</a>. Some sources that could be checked for such a quotation, or a similar one are: <ul><li>Rousso, Henry – <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=NrePBgAAQBAJ">Un château en Allemagne</a> : Sigmaringen, 1944-1945 (1980) <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb42594706f">bnf</a></li> <li>Schillemans, Gérard-Trinité – <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=SXWmAAAAIAAJ">Philippe Pétain, le prisonnier de Sigmaringen</a> (1965) <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb33167980v">bnf</a></li> <li>Brissaud, André – <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=JkExAQAAIAAJ">Pétain à Sigmaringen (1944-1945)</a> (1966) <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb32933641s">bnf</a></li> <li>Rousso, Henry – <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=nCE_2I4vyZkC">Pétain et la fin de la collaboration : Sigmaringen, 1944-1945</a> (1984) <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb347711154">bnf</a></li> <li>Assouline, Pierre – <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=Uu7KuQEACAAJ">Occupation : romans et biographies</a> (2018) <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb45589495g">bnf</a></li> <li>Kupferman, Fred – <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=G1arMOq2T9UC">Le procès de Vichy : Pucheu, Pétain, Laval</a> (2021) <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb468204544">bnf</a></li></ul></dd> <dd>Lormier (2019) cites footnote 24 of the book for the quotation, but I can't see the footnote page. If someone had it, we could check. Thanks, <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:51:00.000Z-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:51, 1 October 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:51:00.000Z-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:12:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:51:00.000Z-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:12:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-2021-10-01T04:28:00.000Z-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:51:00.000Z"></span>Added a resource request at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RX#Need_a_reference_for_this_quotation_by_Philippe_Pétain" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RX">WP:RX</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-2021-10-01T04:28:00.000Z-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:28, 1 October 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-2021-10-01T04:28:00.000Z-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-2021-10-01T04:28:00.000Z-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:51:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-2021-10-05T22:00:00.000Z-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:51:00.000Z"></span><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1235781174">.mw-parser-output .hmbox-outer{margin-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .hmbox-inner{display:inline-block;color:var(--color-base,#202122);border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);background-color:var(--background-color-interactive-subtle,#f8f9fa);margin-right:0.5em;padding:0.3em 0.5em}</style><div role="note" class="hmbox-outer resolved"><div class="hmbox-inner"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/30px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/40px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Resolved</div></div> Given follow-up investigations, I think we can declare this question resolved: the citation is most likely a fraudulent invention of the IP who first added it at French Wikipedia in 2006. In any case, one cannot prove a negative, so if at some time in the future a legitimate citation for this supposed quotation turns up in a reliable source, please add it back into the article, ping me, and notify <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_France" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject France">WT:WikiProject France</a>. Just please beware of sources that are Wikipedia <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MIRROR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MIRROR">mirrors</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CIRCULAR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CIRCULAR">circular references</a>, and any later sources that repeat or summarize the unreliable comments at Deloeuvre (2018) or Lormier (2019) or (2021); a pre-2006 source would be best. Thanks, <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-2021-10-05T22:00:00.000Z-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:00, 5 October 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-2021-10-05T22:00:00.000Z-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-2021-10-05T22:00:00.000Z-Mathglot-2021-10-01T01:51:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-1">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite id="CITEREFDeloeuvre2018" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Deloeuvre, Guy (23 July 2018). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=1lzJDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT126"><i>Philippe Pétain: Portrait</i></a> (in French). Laurent Poret<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">1 October</span> 2021</span>. <q><span title="French-language text"><i lang="fr">Le lendemain, 20 août 1944, il est emmené contre son gré par l'armée allemande à Belfort puis, le 8 septembre, à Sigmaringen dans le sud-ouest de l'Allemagne195, où s'étaient réfugiés les dignitaires de son régime. Plutôt que de démissionner, il entretient, dans une lettre aux Français la fiction selon laquelle « je suis et demeure moralement votre chef ».</i></span></q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Philippe+P%C3%A9tain%3A+Portrait&rft.pub=Laurent+Poret&rft.date=2018-07-23&rft.aulast=Deloeuvre&rft.aufirst=Guy&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3D1lzJDwAAQBAJ%26pg%3DPT126&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3APhilippe+P%C3%A9tain" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-2"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-2">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFLormier2019" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Lormier, Dominique (2019). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=UfGYDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT117"><i>Les vérités cachées de la Seconde Guerre</i></a> [<i>Hidden Truths of the Second World War</i>] (in French). Monaco: Editions du Rocher. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-2-268-10190-3" title="Special:BookSources/978-2-268-10190-3"><bdi>978-2-268-10190-3</bdi></a>. <a href="/wiki/OCLC_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="OCLC (identifier)">OCLC</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/oclc/1104328730">1104328730</a><span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">1 October</span> 2021</span>. <q><span title="French-language text"><i lang="fr">Petain cede finalement a la demande allemande. Le 20 aout 1944, il est emmene contre son gre par les Nazis a Belfort puis, le 8 septembre, a Sigmaringen en Allemagne, ou se sont egalement refugie les dignataires vichyste. Plutot que se demissioner, malgre les injonctions de Laval, Petain entretient dans une lettre aux Francais la fiction selon laquelle « je suis et demeure moralement votre chef ».</i></span></q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Les+v%C3%A9rit%C3%A9s+cach%C3%A9es+de+la+Seconde+Guerre&rft.place=Monaco&rft.pub=Editions+du+Rocher&rft.date=2019&rft_id=info%3Aoclcnum%2F1104328730&rft.isbn=978-2-268-10190-3&rft.aulast=Lormier&rft.aufirst=Dominique&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DUfGYDwAAQBAJ%26pg%3DPT117&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3APhilippe+P%C3%A9tain" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-3"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-3">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFLormier2021" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">Lormier, Dominique (2021). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=GSMsEAAAQBAJ"><i>Les vérités cachées de la France sous l'Occupation</i></a> [<i>Hidden Truths of Occupied France</i>] (in French). Monaco: Editions du Rocher. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-2-268-10544-4" title="Special:BookSources/978-2-268-10544-4"><bdi>978-2-268-10544-4</bdi></a>. <a href="/wiki/OCLC_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="OCLC (identifier)">OCLC</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/oclc/1257240820">1257240820</a><span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">1 October</span> 2021</span>. <q><span title="French-language text"><i lang="fr">Malgre les injonctions de Laval, Petain entretient dans une lettre aux Francais la fiction selon laquelle « je suis et demeure moralement votre chef ».</i></span></q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Les+v%C3%A9rit%C3%A9s+cach%C3%A9es+de+la+France+sous+l%27Occupation&rft.place=Monaco&rft.pub=Editions+du+Rocher&rft.date=2021&rft_id=info%3Aoclcnum%2F1257240820&rft.isbn=978-2-268-10544-4&rft.aulast=Lormier&rft.aufirst=Dominique&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DGSMsEAAAQBAJ&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3APhilippe+P%C3%A9tain" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Marshal_of_France_Title" data-mw-thread-id="h-Marshal_of_France_Title-20230602041600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Marshal_of_France_Title-20230602041600"></span>Marshal of France Title<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Marshal_of_France_Title-20230602041600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Marshal of France Title"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ovenel-20230602041600-Marshal_of_France_Title"></span>This article states that, "After his conviction, the court stripped Pétain of all military ranks and honours including the distinction of Marshal of France." However, the article for the <a href="/wiki/Marshal_of_France" title="Marshal of France">Marshal of France</a> indicates (without a source) that the distinction of Marshal of France was not stripped due to it being granted as an Act of Parliament, and thus stripping it was outside of the jurisdiction of the court. Further down in this article, under his list of honors, "Marshal of France" is listed saying both that it was his sole award that was retained after his treason conviction, but that it was also withdrawn following his treason conviction. This doesn't make sense unless there is supposed to be more color indicating that Parliament had stripped him of this title. </p><p>I don't have access to the source that is cited by this article to confirm that it supports the claim that the title was stripped from him after his conviction, so I'm not going to make any changes to this article. But if anybody has access to that source, could they review it and adjust this article if necessary? At the very least, the listing of awards at the bottom should be more clear about whether or not he retained the distinction of Marshal of France. <a href="/wiki/User:Ovenel" title="User:Ovenel">Ovenel</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ovenel" title="User talk:Ovenel">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Ovenel-20230602041600-Marshal_of_France_Title" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ovenel-20230602041600-Marshal_of_France_Title"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ovenel-20230602041600-Marshal_of_France_Title"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DuncanHill-20230831010500-Ovenel-20230602041600"></span>According to the French article he was subject to <i>Indignité nationale</i> which included the loss of all military ranks or distinctions, and the French article on Marshal of France also has him being deprived of the rank or title. <a href="/wiki/User:DuncanHill" title="User:DuncanHill">DuncanHill</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DuncanHill" title="User talk:DuncanHill">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-DuncanHill-20230831010500-Ovenel-20230602041600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:05, 31 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DuncanHill-20230831010500-Ovenel-20230602041600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DuncanHill-20230831010500-Ovenel-20230602041600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-DuncanHill-20230831111600-DuncanHill-20230831010500"></span>I have raised this interesting and important point at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Pétain's_degradation" title="Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities">Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#Pétain's degradation</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:DuncanHill" title="User:DuncanHill">DuncanHill</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:DuncanHill" title="User talk:DuncanHill">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-DuncanHill-20230831111600-DuncanHill-20230831010500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:16, 31 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-DuncanHill-20230831111600-DuncanHill-20230831010500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-DuncanHill-20230831111600-DuncanHill-20230831010500"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20230831183300-Ovenel-20230602041600"></span>Yes, I remember noticing this as well some time ago, and started to look into it, but I don't recall anymore what I found. I *think* I found sources in disagreement, but I don't remember for sure, now, and should have tagged it at the time. Step one should be: check the sources again, and if they really are in disagreement, then start by adding the <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Dubious" title="Template:Dubious">dubious</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> tag to both, with a <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|reason=</code> param linking the other, and very briefly stating the disagreement, and with param <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|1=</code> of the <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Dubious" title="Template:Dubious">dubious</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> tag pointing to this discussion. (If they're not in disagreement, then obviously just fix the wrong one.) <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-20230831183300-Ovenel-20230602041600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:33, 31 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20230831183300-Ovenel-20230602041600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20230831183300-Ovenel-20230602041600"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831184000-Ovenel-20230602041600"></span>Also note that his gravestone bears the title "Marechal de France". This suggests that he retained it. <a href="/wiki/User:Random_person_no_362478479" title="User:Random person no 362478479">-- Random person no 362478479</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Random_person_no_362478479" title="User talk:Random person no 362478479">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831184000-Ovenel-20230602041600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831184000-Ovenel-20230602041600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831184000-Ovenel-20230602041600"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20230831190400-Ovenel-20230602041600"></span>At the same time, or step two if you like, is that a resource request should be issued for existing source <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/1173120799#cite_note-65" title="Special:PermanentLink/1173120799">Varaut-1995</a>, which is the source listed in the article before all the edit-warring on this point began without referring to its content. To request access to a particular book or resource you cannot access, please go to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Resource_request" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Resource request">Wikipedia:Resource request</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-20230831190400-Ovenel-20230602041600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:04, 31 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20230831190400-Ovenel-20230602041600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20230831190400-Ovenel-20230602041600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831201100-Mathglot-20230831190400"></span>I have been able to read most of the relevant chapter in google books preview. I found no explicit claim that he lost the title of Marshal. And the author keeps referring to "le Maréchal" afterwards. I've looked at a number of books at internet archive as well. None of them was explicit about whether or not he retained the title. But people kept addressing him as Marshal, he was buried in his Marshal's uniform (although the French government apparently objected to this) and his gravestone bears the title. I found no evidence that any separate action was taken to strip him of his title. If he was stripped of the title, it must almost certainly been by the verdict. The verdict was simply (leaving out the reasoning):</dd> <dd><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237805129">.mw-parser-output .talkquote{color:var(--color-base,#202122);background-color:#eaf8f4;border-left:3px solid #008560;padding:0 .8em;margin:0}.mw-parser-output .talkquote-by,.mw-parser-output .talkquote-source{margin-left:1.6em}.mw-parser-output .skin-vector-2022 .talkquote>:last-child{padding-bottom:0}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}</style><blockquote class="talkquote"><p>Par ces motifs, <br/> Condamne Pétain à la peine de mort, à l'indignité nationale, à la confiscation de ses biens. <br/> Tenant compte du grand âge de l'accusé, la Haute Cour de justice émet le voeu que la condamnation à mort ne pas exécutée.</p></blockquote></dd> <dd>So it seems to come down to the question of whether <a href="/wiki/Indignit%C3%A9_nationale" title="Indignité nationale">Indignité nationale</a> affects the title or not.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Random_person_no_362478479" title="User:Random person no 362478479">-- Random person no 362478479</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Random_person_no_362478479" title="User talk:Random person no 362478479">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831201100-Mathglot-20230831190400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:11, 31 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831201100-Mathglot-20230831190400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831201100-Mathglot-20230831190400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20230831202300-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831201100"></span>That's a good narrowing of the question, but as Wikipedia editors, we cannot make that call. If we can't find a source that clearly states it one way or the other, we should remove the statement entirely. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-20230831202300-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831201100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:23, 31 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20230831202300-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831201100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20230831202300-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831201100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831202500-Mathglot-20230831202300"></span>I agree. <a href="/wiki/User:Random_person_no_362478479" title="User:Random person no 362478479">-- Random person no 362478479</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Random_person_no_362478479" title="User talk:Random person no 362478479">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831202500-Mathglot-20230831202300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831202500-Mathglot-20230831202300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230831202500-Mathglot-20230831202300"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20230901021800-Ovenel-20230602041600"></span>I've tagged the claim as <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Dubious" title="Template:Dubious">dubious</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span>, and linked this discussion. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-20230901021800-Ovenel-20230602041600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:18, 1 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20230901021800-Ovenel-20230602041600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20230901021800-Ovenel-20230602041600"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Edit-warring_and_verifiability" data-mw-thread-id="h-Edit-warring_and_verifiability-Marshal_of_France_Title-20230831202100"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Edit-warring_and_verifiability-Marshal_of_France_Title-20230831202100"></span>Edit-warring and verifiability<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Edit-warring_and_verifiability-Marshal_of_France_Title-20230831202100"></span></h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Edit-warring and verifiability"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20230831202100-Edit-warring_and_verifiability"></span>The question of whether Pétain was or wasn't stripped of his "Maréchal de France" has been the object of slow edit-warring for at least several months. At 23:36 on 24 May 2023 <a href="/wiki/User:Le_Petit_Chat" title="User:Le Petit Chat">Le Petit Chat</a> attempted to settle this question by adding <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.cairn.info/le-proces-petain--9782262010911-page-381.htm">this cairn.info url</a> in rev. <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1156852454" title="Special:Diff/1156852454">1156852454</a> referring to the Varaut (1995) article, but the warring has continued, because the Varaut article on cairn requires university or other access. Le Petit Chat, can you please access the cairn resource again, and add a <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|quote=</code> param to the footnote in section <a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#Trial_in_High_Court" title="Philippe Pétain">§ Trial in High Court</a>, right after the words, "<span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">...including the distinction of Marshal of France</span>", which supports your edit that he was stripped of "Marshal of France" ? Thanks, <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-20230831202100-Edit-warring_and_verifiability" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20230831202100-Edit-warring_and_verifiability"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20230831202100-Edit-warring_and_verifiability"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20230901020500-Mathglot-20230831202100"></span>Notified at their French UTP, in case they have notifications off. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-20230901020500-Mathglot-20230831202100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20230901020500-Mathglot-20230831202100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20230901020500-Mathglot-20230831202100"></span></dd> <dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Le_Petit_Chat-20230901110400-Mathglot-20230831202100"></span>"La déchéance des droits civiques et la confiscation des biens fut acquise. L’indignité nationale fit perdre au Maréchal son grade et ses décorations. La dégradation publique proposée par Stibbe fut repoussée à la majorité, au grand soulagement des magistrats."</i> <a href="/wiki/User:Le_Petit_Chat" title="User:Le Petit Chat">Le Petit Chat</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Le_Petit_Chat" title="User talk:Le Petit Chat">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Le_Petit_Chat-20230901110400-Mathglot-20230831202100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Le_Petit_Chat-20230901110400-Mathglot-20230831202100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Le_Petit_Chat-20230901110400-Mathglot-20230831202100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230901214300-Le_Petit_Chat-20230901110400"></span>The way I understand it "Maréchal" is neither a <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_militaire" class="extiw" title="fr:Grade militaire">"grade"</a>/"rank", nor a <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9coration_militaire" class="extiw" title="fr:Décoration militaire">"décoration"</a>/"decoration", but a <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_(honorifique)" class="extiw" title="fr:Distinction (honorifique)">"distinction"</a>/"distinction". So I would not consider this an explicit confirmation that he lost the distinction of "Maréchal". <a href="/wiki/User:Random_person_no_362478479" title="User:Random person no 362478479">-- Random person no 362478479</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Random_person_no_362478479" title="User talk:Random person no 362478479">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230901214300-Le_Petit_Chat-20230901110400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:43, 1 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230901214300-Le_Petit_Chat-20230901110400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230901214300-Le_Petit_Chat-20230901110400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20230901231500-Random_person_no_362478479-20230901214300"></span>Yes indeed, <a href="/wiki/User:Random_person_no_362478479" title="User:Random person no 362478479">Random</a>; and thank you, <a href="/wiki/User:Le_Petit_Chat" title="User:Le Petit Chat">Le Petit Chat</a> for adding that quotation. Afaic, that settles it: Petain was not stripped of his title of "Marshal"; or to be very explicit about it policy-wise: we have no <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">reliable source</a> that claims that he was. I have removed the claim from the article, and am issuing here and now this formal <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CHALLENGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CHALLENGE">WP:CHALLENGE</a>: <ul><li>Any alteration of the article to include an assertion that Pétain was stripped of 'Marshal' "<span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V">must include an inline citation to a reliable source</a> that directly supports<sup>[<a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/1172111230#cite_note-directly_supports-2" title="Special:PermanentLink/1172111230">b</a>]</sup> the material</span>". Failure to do so will result in removal of the content, and may result in warnings.</li></ul></dd> <dd>Note that "reliable sources" does not include anything found at Wikipedia. Thanks all, <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-20230901231500-Random_person_no_362478479-20230901214300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20230901231500-Random_person_no_362478479-20230901214300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20230901231500-Random_person_no_362478479-20230901214300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Le_Petit_Chat-20230901231900-Mathglot-20230901231500"></span>Sorry for my mistake, you are right, <i>Maréchal</i> is not a rank or a decoration but a title. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Le_Petit_Chat" title="User:Le Petit Chat">Le Petit Chat</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Le_Petit_Chat" title="User talk:Le Petit Chat">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Le_Petit_Chat-20230901231900-Mathglot-20230901231500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:19, 1 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Le_Petit_Chat-20230901231900-Mathglot-20230901231500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Le_Petit_Chat-20230901231900-Mathglot-20230901231500"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Elinruby-20230902201500-Random_person_no_362478479-20230901214300"></span>I agree that the answer is almost certainly no, but cannot currently cite all of the reasons why I say this. French wikipedia contradicts itself on this point and I have spent as much time trawling through BNF and Gallica and Légifrance as I am willing to put into this point.</dd> <dd>But here is an explanation I believe to be correct. The title of Maréchal is historic and was revived after World War I to honor Pétain and Foch. Historically one became a Maréchal through legislation, but after World War I it was awarded by the President of France through a decree. That's the part I can't find a cite for, although it my defense it's a rather obscure point. But here is why it matters: It seems that whether by decree or by legislation, the title is awarded by enacting a <b>LAW</b> and presumably it would take another law to remove it. That's the important part, and here is the part I am sure about: French judges cannot make law; it's an important difference between the civil and common law systems <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://scholarship.law.columbia.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3113&context=faculty_scholarship">[1]</a> On reflection, I am not certain that the various legal databases of the French government go as far back as 1918, because I put a fair amount of effort into trying to find the decree that made him a Maréchal. Hope that helps somebody. The short answer is that degradation would probably have stripped him of any public office, but that is not what "Maréchal" was. And yes, I saw sources that referred to him by that title even when he was in exile <a href="/wiki/User:Elinruby" title="User:Elinruby">Elinruby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Elinruby" title="User talk:Elinruby">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Elinruby-20230902201500-Random_person_no_362478479-20230901214300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Elinruby-20230902201500-Random_person_no_362478479-20230901214300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Elinruby-20230902201500-Random_person_no_362478479-20230901214300"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Elinruby-20230902202900-Elinruby-20230902201500"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz" title="User:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz">Mr Serjeant Buzfuz</a>:</span> may know more <a href="/wiki/User:Elinruby" title="User:Elinruby">Elinruby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Elinruby" title="User talk:Elinruby">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Elinruby-20230902202900-Elinruby-20230902201500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:29, 2 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Elinruby-20230902202900-Elinruby-20230902201500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Elinruby-20230902202900-Elinruby-20230902201500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000-Elinruby-20230902202900"></span>Fascinating discussion, but I’m afraid I’m not familiar with the intricacies of French law. <a href="/wiki/User:Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz" title="User:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz">Mr Serjeant Buzfuz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz" title="User talk:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000-Elinruby-20230902202900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:50, 2 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000-Elinruby-20230902202900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000-Elinruby-20230902202900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902210400-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000"></span>However, I have found this article in Foreign Policy: « Macron Finds the Immoral Way to Remember World War I », which discusses Pétain's legacy, and gives this : « After a postwar tribunal condemned Pétain to death, de Gaulle commuted his sentence to life imprisonment. And while Pétain was stripped of nearly all his titles and honors, he was allowed to keep the title of marshal of France. ». The article is written by David A. Bell, professor of history at Princeton, so seems a reliable source. <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/09/macron-finds-the-immoral-way-to-remember-world-war-i/#:~:text=After%20a%20postwar%20tribunal%20condemned,title%20of%20marshal%20of%20France">https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/09/macron-finds-the-immoral-way-to-remember-world-war-i/#:~:text=After%20a%20postwar%20tribunal%20condemned,title%20of%20marshal%20of%20France</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz" title="User:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz">Mr Serjeant Buzfuz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz" title="User talk:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902210400-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:04, 2 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902210400-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902210400-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230902211200-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902210400"></span>"The authorities allowed him to be described on the death certificate as 'Philippe Pétain, Marshal of France' rather than ‘Philippe Pétain, without profession’, as originally intended."<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.historytoday.com/archive/months-past/death-marshal-p%C3%A9tain">[2]</a> I don't think this proves anything, but an interesting tidbit. <a href="/wiki/User:Random_person_no_362478479" title="User:Random person no 362478479">-- Random person no 362478479</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Random_person_no_362478479" title="User talk:Random person no 362478479">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230902211200-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902210400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:12, 2 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230902211200-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902210400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230902211200-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902210400"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Elinruby-20230902221800-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000"></span>Thank you both. Bell's Foreign Policy article is pretty definitive that he kept the title, right? The gravestone is certainly supporting detail. Dégradation, that stripping that Bell is talking about, involves loss of the rights of citizenship, to vote or run for office, I am fairly certain. I know Mathglot and I discussed it before but I do not remember if either of us wrote or translated an article about it.</dd> <dd>Part of the fun of the post-war period is that they set up a whole separate court system for collaborator and war crimes trials. I believe a French court tried Petain (vs. Nuremberg proceeding} since De Gaulle commuted the death sentence as the court asked him to. Also, one of the sources emphasizes that it was a criminal trial. I initially thought it must have been a military matter, but as noted above, it was just an honor, like Poet-Laureate. And received with the enactment of a law, even though theoretically it also made him the commander-in-chief of the French Army. Heh. Just there for the flourishes, I guess, like the Governor-General or for that matter the British royal family. That sentence would have put him out of office if he had been prime minister or president or mayor or dogcatcher, however. That is *my* best shot at this.</dd> <dd>The thing with Macron btw has to do with an anniversary and the fact that Pétain (<span title="French-language text"><i lang="fr">l'héros de Verdun</i></span>) received the title of Maréchal because he was a genuine war hero). So some were saying that he deserves to be honoured as such and others think that senile at the time or not, war hero or not, anyone who was in office when little children were rounded up at <a href="/wiki/Vel_d%27Hiv" class="mw-redirect" title="Vel d'Hiv">Vel d'Hiv</a> and put on a train for an internment camp does not need to be honored in any way at all. <a href="/wiki/User:Elinruby" title="User:Elinruby">Elinruby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Elinruby" title="User talk:Elinruby">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Elinruby-20230902221800-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:18, 2 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Elinruby-20230902221800-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Elinruby-20230902221800-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902224300-Elinruby-20230902221800"></span>There's also a new book out that may cast light on the issue: Julian Jackson, <i>France on Trial: The Case of Marshal Pétain</i>. I don't have access to it, but it may cast some light on the effect of the court's verdict. The review in the Economist mentions that it was a civil court with a special jury of 24: 12 veterans of WWI, and 12 politicians from before Vichy. <a href="/wiki/User:Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz" title="User:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz">Mr Serjeant Buzfuz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz" title="User talk:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902224300-Elinruby-20230902221800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:43, 2 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902224300-Elinruby-20230902221800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902224300-Elinruby-20230902221800"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Elinruby-20230902225700-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000"></span>huh, a civil court? I will take a look at that again. Julian Jackson is the current authority on Vichy though, according to something I just wrote for a different article. I wonder if they mean administrative. but I expect Jackson and the Economist got it reight for at least some definition of "got it right". That's not really a question; I'll figure it out if it looks like I need to for the other article I am working on. There were special courts for collaborators but I suspect he would have had special handling if only for security reasons.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Elinruby" title="User:Elinruby">Elinruby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Elinruby" title="User talk:Elinruby">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Elinruby-20230902225700-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:57, 2 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Elinruby-20230902225700-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Elinruby-20230902225700-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902205000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902235300-Elinruby-20230902225700"></span>I think it was the same High Court that tried the other collaborators, like Laval. I meant "civil" in the sense of "non-military": not a court martial. <a href="/wiki/User:Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz" title="User:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz">Mr Serjeant Buzfuz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz" title="User talk:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902235300-Elinruby-20230902225700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:53, 2 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902235300-Elinruby-20230902225700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20230902235300-Elinruby-20230902225700"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Elinruby-20230903002800-Elinruby-20230902225700"></span>I see. I was thinking of the giy who was going to jail for selling butter outside the official system> Tribunal national, something like that? Neither the English nor the French wikipedia seems to have an article on it, in any event. I also read yours to mean "not criminal" so thank you for clarifing for me. I also found [<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://academic.oup.com/book/26719/chapter/195545738%7Cthis">[3]</a>], which talks about the prohibition on retroactive law and how that's limited to criminal law... not done reading it yet. I have been mumbling about a French admin law glossary, or I would have wandered off by now. <a href="/wiki/User:Elinruby" title="User:Elinruby">Elinruby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Elinruby" title="User talk:Elinruby">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Elinruby-20230903002800-Elinruby-20230902225700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:28, 3 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Elinruby-20230903002800-Elinruby-20230902225700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Elinruby-20230903002800-Elinruby-20230902225700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230903210400-Elinruby-20230903002800"></span>The French Wikipedia has some information about the Haute Cour, see <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haute_Cour_(France)#Haute_Cour_de_justice_(Gouvernement_provisoire_de_la_République_française)" class="extiw" title="fr:Haute Cour (France)">fr:Haute_Cour_(France)#Haute_Cour_de_justice_(Gouvernement_provisoire_de_la_République_française)</a> and <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89puration_%C3%A0_la_Lib%C3%A9ration_en_France#Haute_Cour_de_justice" class="extiw" title="fr:Épuration à la Libération en France">fr:Épuration_à_la_Libération_en_France#Haute_Cour_de_justice</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Random_person_no_362478479" title="User:Random person no 362478479">-- Random person no 362478479</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Random_person_no_362478479" title="User talk:Random person no 362478479">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230903210400-Elinruby-20230903002800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:04, 3 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230903210400-Elinruby-20230903002800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Random_person_no_362478479-20230903210400-Elinruby-20230903002800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Statesman?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Statesman?-20231117023300"><span id="Statesman.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Statesman?-20231117023300"></span>Statesman?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Statesman?-20231117023300"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Statesman?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shakescene-20231117023300-Statesman?"></span>[copied from a User talk page]</i> </p><p>Someone added "and statesman" to this lede paragraph: </p> <blockquote><p><b>Henri Philippe Benoni Omer Pétain</b> (<a href="/wiki/Help:IPA/English" title="Help:IPA/English">/peɪˈtæ̃/</a>, French: <a href="/wiki/Help:IPA/French" title="Help:IPA/French">[filip petɛ̃]</a>); 24 April 1856 – 23 July 1951) was a French military officer and statesman who commanded the <a href="/wiki/French_Army" title="French Army">French Army</a> in <a href="/wiki/World_War_I" title="World War I">World War I</a> and became the head of the <a href="/wiki/Collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany_and_Fascist_Italy" title="Collaboration with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy">collaborationist</a> regime of <a href="/wiki/Vichy_France" title="Vichy France">Vichy France</a>, from 1940 to 1944, during <a href="/wiki/World_War_II" title="World War II">World War II</a>.</p></blockquote> <p>Philippe Pétain was more than a military officer, but — unless "statesman" is generic and non-judgemental in Wikipedia (is Hitler or Stalin or Mussolini or Idi Amin a "statesman"?) — is there a better-focussed and less-loaded term for his rôle as <i>Chef</i> de l'État Français ? Or is any term needed when the lede sentence ends, "and became the head of the <a href="/wiki/Collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany_and_Fascist_Italy" title="Collaboration with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy">collaborationist</a> regime of <a href="/wiki/Vichy_France" title="Vichy France">Vichy France</a>" ? </p><p><span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a>:</span> <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Elinruby" title="User:Elinruby">Elinruby</a>:</span><a href="/wiki/User:Shakescene" title="User:Shakescene">—— Shakescene</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shakescene" title="User talk:Shakescene">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Shakescene-20231117023300-Statesman?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:33, 17 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shakescene-20231117023300-Statesman?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shakescene-20231117023300-Statesman?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20231117030900-Shakescene-20231117023300"></span>Worthwhile question... For the time being, I've reverted it, because whatever the right word is, 'statesman' is certainly not it. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-20231117030900-Shakescene-20231117023300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:09, 17 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20231117030900-Shakescene-20231117023300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20231117030900-Shakescene-20231117023300"></span></dd></dl> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Shakescene" title="User:Shakescene"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Shakescene-20231117035000-Statesman?"></span>—— Shakescene</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Shakescene" title="User talk:Shakescene">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Shakescene-20231117035000-Statesman?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:50, 17 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Shakescene-20231117035000-Statesman?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Shakescene-20231117035000-Statesman?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Sword_and_shield_theory" data-mw-thread-id="h-Sword_and_shield_theory-20240706015000"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Sword_and_shield_theory-20240706015000"></span>Sword and shield theory<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Sword_and_shield_theory-20240706015000"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Sword and shield theory"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20240706015000-Sword_and_shield_theory"></span>Neither this article nor <a href="/wiki/Vichy_France" title="Vichy France">Vichy France</a> mention the <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sword_and_shield_theory&redirect=no">sword and shield theory</a></span>. This was an important analysis of Petain's behavior during Vichy, and it rates inclusion in both. Many think the theory is rubbish now, but it had enormous influence at the time. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-20240706015000-Sword_and_shield_theory" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20240706015000-Sword_and_shield_theory"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20240706015000-Sword_and_shield_theory"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Lede_Image" data-mw-thread-id="h-Lede_Image-20240726213000"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Lede_Image-20240726213000"></span>Lede Image<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Lede_Image-20240726213000"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Lede Image"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Emiya1980-20240726213000-Lede_Image"></span>Which of the following images should serve as the lede image for the <a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain" title="Philippe Pétain">Philippe Pétain</a> page? </p> <ul class="gallery mw-gallery-packed"> <li class="gallerybox" style="width: 148px"> <div class="thumb" style="width: 146px;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg" class="mw-file-description" title="A (Current Image)"><img alt="A (Current Image)" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg/219px-P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg" decoding="async" width="146" height="200" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg/329px-P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg/439px-P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg 2x" data-file-width="3791" data-file-height="5185"/></a></span></div> <div class="gallerytext"><b>A</b> (Current Image)</div> </li> <li class="gallerybox" style="width: 158.66666666667px"> <div class="thumb" style="width: 156.66666666667px;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_(en_civil,_autour_de_1930).jpg" class="mw-file-description" title="B"><img alt="B" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_%28en_civil%2C_autour_de_1930%29.jpg/235px-Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_%28en_civil%2C_autour_de_1930%29.jpg" decoding="async" width="157" height="200" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_%28en_civil%2C_autour_de_1930%29.jpg/352px-Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_%28en_civil%2C_autour_de_1930%29.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_%28en_civil%2C_autour_de_1930%29.jpg/469px-Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_%28en_civil%2C_autour_de_1930%29.jpg 2x" data-file-width="7121" data-file-height="9104"/></a></span></div> <div class="gallerytext"><b>B</b></div> </li> <li class="gallerybox" style="width: 164.66666666667px"> <div class="thumb" style="width: 162.66666666667px;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:PETAIN,_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_(cropped).jpg" class="mw-file-description" title="C"><img alt="C" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/PETAIN%2C_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_%28cropped%29.jpg/244px-PETAIN%2C_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_%28cropped%29.jpg" decoding="async" width="163" height="200" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/PETAIN%2C_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_%28cropped%29.jpg/366px-PETAIN%2C_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_%28cropped%29.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/PETAIN%2C_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_%28cropped%29.jpg/489px-PETAIN%2C_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_%28cropped%29.jpg 2x" data-file-width="7615" data-file-height="9350"/></a></span></div> <div class="gallerytext"><b>C</b> </div> </li> </ul> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Emiya1980" title="User talk:Emiya1980">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Emiya1980-20240726213000-Lede_Image" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:30, 26 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Emiya1980-20240726213000-Lede_Image"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Emiya1980-20240726213000-Lede_Image"></span> </p><dl><dd><dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Emiya1980-20240727015700-Emiya1980-20240726213000"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Paulturtle" title="User:Paulturtle">Paulturtle</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Aumnamahashiva" title="User:Aumnamahashiva">Aumnamahashiva</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Srich32977" title="User:Srich32977">Srich32977</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:M._Armando" title="User:M. Armando">M. Armando</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:PAustin4thApril1980" title="User:PAustin4thApril1980">PAustin4thApril1980</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Rrostrom" title="User:Rrostrom">Rrostrom</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Havsj%C3%B6" title="User:Havsjö">Havsjö</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:The_Image_Editor" title="User:The Image Editor">The Image Editor</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:CocoricoPolynesien" title="User:CocoricoPolynesien">CocoricoPolynesien</a>, and <a href="/wiki/User:BeenAroundAWhile" title="User:BeenAroundAWhile">BeenAroundAWhile</a>:</span> In light of the interest you have previously expressed regarding <a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain" title="Philippe Pétain">Philippe Pétain's</a> infobox picture or (in the alternative) the significant extent of your past contributions to this article, you are invited to take part in a discussion regarding which picture should be selected as the page's lede image. Should you be inclined to do so, please share your thoughts below<a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Emiya1980" title="User talk:Emiya1980">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Emiya1980-20240727015700-Emiya1980-20240726213000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:57, 27 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Emiya1980-20240727015700-Emiya1980-20240726213000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Emiya1980-20240727015700-Emiya1980-20240726213000"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20240727050100-Emiya1980-20240726213000"></span>Three editors took part in the <a href="#New_infobox_image">previous discussion about this</a>, so pinging <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:The_Image_Editor" title="User:The Image Editor">The Image Editor</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:CocoricoPolynesien" title="User:CocoricoPolynesien">CocoricoPolynesien</a>, and <a href="/wiki/User:BeenAroundAWhile" title="User:BeenAroundAWhile">BeenAroundAWhile</a>:</span>, although only one is still editing (just barely). As for me, the current image seems sharper, more contrasty (so easier on the eyes), and, of course, is in color, making it the best one on several counts. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-20240727050100-Emiya1980-20240726213000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:01, 27 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20240727050100-Emiya1980-20240726213000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20240727050100-Emiya1980-20240726213000"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Havsjö-20240727101000-Emiya1980-20240726213000"></span>Agree with Mathglot regarding colour etc, but otherwise I think A or C, since those are from the times of his "peak fame" (as Commander of the French Army in WW1 and Head of State in WW2). Him in a suit during the 1930s (when he did nothing of particular note) is a strange choice to use as his "face" for the article/infobox. I would also say him as Head of State of the entire (well, half...) country (i.e. A) is also "higher" and more "deserving" of being the main picture than commander of "only" the military --<a href="/wiki/User:Havsj%C3%B6" title="User:Havsjö">Havsjö</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Havsj%C3%B6" title="User talk:Havsjö">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Havsjö-20240727101000-Emiya1980-20240726213000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:10, 27 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Havsjö-20240727101000-Emiya1980-20240726213000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Havsjö-20240727101000-Emiya1980-20240726213000"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paulturtle-20240727223500-Emiya1980-20240726213000"></span>I think he's probably best remembered for his role in Vichy nowadays, but WW1 is perfectly accceptable as well. <a href="/wiki/User:Paulturtle" title="User:Paulturtle">Paulturtle</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paulturtle" title="User talk:Paulturtle">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Paulturtle-20240727223500-Emiya1980-20240726213000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:35, 27 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paulturtle-20240727223500-Emiya1980-20240726213000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paulturtle-20240727223500-Emiya1980-20240726213000"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Emiya1980-20240809212900-Emiya1980-20240726213000"></span>I am in favor of <b>C</b>. Whereas <b>A</b> is an artistic recreation of the subject's appearance, <b>C</b> is a photographic which better captures Pétain as he appeared in real life.<a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Emiya1980" title="User talk:Emiya1980">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Emiya1980-20240809212900-Emiya1980-20240726213000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:29, 9 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Emiya1980-20240809212900-Emiya1980-20240726213000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Emiya1980-20240809212900-Emiya1980-20240726213000"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain" data-mw-thread-id="h-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain-20240817013300"><span id="Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_P.C3.A9tain"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain-20240817013300"></span>Rfc for Lede Image of Philippe Pétain<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain-20240817013300"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Rfc for Lede Image of Philippe Pétain"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-progressive-subtle, #f1f4fd); color: inherit; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;"> <dl><dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Voorts-20241022001300-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain"></span>The following discussion is an archived record of a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment">request for comment</a>. <span style="color:var(--color-destructive, red)"><b>Please do not modify it.</b></span> No further edits should be made to this discussion.</i> <i>A summary of the conclusions reached follows.</i></dd></dl> <div style="margin: 0 2.5em;">There is <b>consensus</b> to not use image A. The <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg" class="extiw" title="commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Pétain - portrait photographique.jpg">keep decision</a> at Commons (see <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/946762187#Non_policy_based_closure_decision" class="extiw" title="commons:Special:PermanentLink/946762187">subsequent discussion</a>) is not binding. The English Wikipedia has its own policies, including the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IUPC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IUPC">image use policy</a>, which requires affirmative proof of public domain status by the proponent of an image. That policy is similar to the <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Project_scope/Precautionary_principle" class="extiw" title="commons:Commons:Project scope/Precautionary principle">precautionary principle</a> on Commons, which provides that "where there is <i>significant</i> doubt about the freedom of a particular file, it should be deleted". In this discussion, <a href="/wiki/User:Compassionate727" title="User:Compassionate727">Compassionate727</a> provided a significant doubt about the assertion of the public domain status of image A: no evidence has been presented that this was a <a href="/wiki/Vichy_France" title="Vichy France">Vichy France</a> government work that was administered by the <a href="/wiki/Alien_Property_Custodian" class="mw-redirect" title="Alien Property Custodian">Alien Property Custodian</a>. <i>If such evidence is presented, I will overturn my decision.</i> Between B and C, there is <b>no consensus</b>. <a href="/wiki/User:Voorts" title="User:Voorts">voorts</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Voorts" title="User talk:Voorts">talk</a>/<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Voorts" title="Special:Contributions/Voorts">contributions</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Voorts-20241022001300-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:13, 22 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Voorts-20241022001300-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Voorts-20241022001300-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain"></span></div> <hr/> <p><br/><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Emiya1980-20240817013300-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain"></span> Which of the following images should serve as the infobox picture for <a href="/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain" title="Philippe Pétain">Philippe Pétain</a>? <a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Emiya1980" title="User talk:Emiya1980">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Emiya1980-20240817013300-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:33, 17 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Emiya1980-20240817013300-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Emiya1980-20240817013300-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain"></span> </p> <dl><dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Luna_Cielus-20240905220700-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span>A</b>. For me, the current image is the better option as it is in colour and has better quality. This allows viewers to pay more attention to details. However, picture <b>C</b> is also a good option. - Luna Cielus <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Luna_Cielus&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Luna Cielus (page does not exist)">Luna Cielus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Luna_Cielus" title="User talk:Luna Cielus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Luna_Cielus-20240905220700-Emiya1980-20240817013300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:07, 5 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Luna_Cielus-20240905220700-Emiya1980-20240817013300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Luna_Cielus-20240905220700-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span></dd></dl> <ul class="gallery mw-gallery-packed"> <li class="gallerybox" style="width: 148px"> <div class="thumb" style="width: 146px;"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Emiya1980-20240817013300-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain-1"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg" class="mw-file-description" title="A (Current Image)"><img alt="A (Current Image)" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg/219px-P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg" decoding="async" width="146" height="200" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg/329px-P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg/439px-P%C3%A9tain_-_portrait_photographique.jpg 2x" data-file-width="3791" data-file-height="5185"/></a></span></div> <div class="gallerytext"><b>A</b> (Current Image)</div> </li> <li class="gallerybox" style="width: 158.66666666667px"> <div class="thumb" style="width: 156.66666666667px;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_(en_civil,_autour_de_1930).jpg" class="mw-file-description" title="B"><img alt="B" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_%28en_civil%2C_autour_de_1930%29.jpg/235px-Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_%28en_civil%2C_autour_de_1930%29.jpg" decoding="async" width="157" height="200" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_%28en_civil%2C_autour_de_1930%29.jpg/352px-Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_%28en_civil%2C_autour_de_1930%29.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_%28en_civil%2C_autour_de_1930%29.jpg/469px-Philippe_P%C3%A9tain_%28en_civil%2C_autour_de_1930%29.jpg 2x" data-file-width="7121" data-file-height="9104"/></a></span></div> <div class="gallerytext"><b>B</b></div> </li> <li class="gallerybox" style="width: 164.66666666667px"> <div class="thumb" style="width: 162.66666666667px;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:PETAIN,_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_(cropped).jpg" class="mw-file-description" title="C"><img alt="C" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/PETAIN%2C_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_%28cropped%29.jpg/244px-PETAIN%2C_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_%28cropped%29.jpg" decoding="async" width="163" height="200" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/PETAIN%2C_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_%28cropped%29.jpg/366px-PETAIN%2C_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_%28cropped%29.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/PETAIN%2C_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_%28cropped%29.jpg/489px-PETAIN%2C_HENRI_P._MARSHALL_LCCN2016862650_%28cropped%29.jpg 2x" data-file-width="7615" data-file-height="9350"/></a></span></div> <div class="gallerytext"><b>C</b> </div> </li> </ul> <a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Emiya1980" title="User talk:Emiya1980">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Emiya1980-20240817013300-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:33, 17 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Emiya1980-20240817013300-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain-1"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Emiya1980-20240817013300-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain-1"></span> <dl><dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Brigade_Piron-20240817080800-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span>A</b>: I think Pétain is most known for his role in the Vichy regime which eliminates the WWI-era image in C. On the choice between A and B, I think A wins out because Pétain's wartime cult of personality often emphasised depictions wearing the kepi. —<i><a href="/wiki/User:Brigade_Piron" title="User:Brigade Piron">Brigade Piron</a></i> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Brigade_Piron" title="User talk:Brigade Piron">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Brigade_Piron-20240817080800-Emiya1980-20240817013300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Brigade_Piron-20240817080800-Emiya1980-20240817013300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Brigade_Piron-20240817080800-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span></dd> <dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Trakking-20240818033200-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span>A</b> per Brigade Piron. People recognise him by his hat; in image B he looks like any old boring politician from the 20th century. And image C draws attention to his success as a military commander instead of his role as a dictator and collaborator, for which he is notorious. <a href="/wiki/User:Trakking" title="User:Trakking">Trakking</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Trakking" title="User talk:Trakking">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Trakking-20240818033200-Emiya1980-20240817013300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:32, 18 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Trakking-20240818033200-Emiya1980-20240817013300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Trakking-20240818033200-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LindsayH-20240818085600-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span>Definitely not B; it is a run-of-the-mill, could-be-anybody picture. While i disagree with <a href="/wiki/User:Brigade_Piron" title="User:Brigade Piron">Brigade Piron</a> above in that Pétain is well-known for his WWI activities as well as the WWII collaboration, so C would be acceptable, <b>A</b> is the best choice ~ it illustrates his appearance, it shows the kepi, and it is a clear image. Happy days, ~ <b><a href="/wiki/User:LindsayH" title="User:LindsayH">Lindsay</a></b><sup><b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:LindsayH" title="User talk:LindsayH">H</a></b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:LindsayH" title="User talk:LindsayH">ello</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-LindsayH-20240818085600-Emiya1980-20240817013300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:56, 18 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LindsayH-20240818085600-Emiya1980-20240817013300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LindsayH-20240818085600-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span></dd> <dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Moxy-20240818214900-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span>A</b>: simply the most clear.<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue"><a href="/wiki/User:Moxy" title="User:Moxy">Moxy</a></span>🍁 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Moxy-20240818214900-Emiya1980-20240817013300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:49, 18 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Moxy-20240818214900-Emiya1980-20240817013300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Moxy-20240818214900-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span></dd> <dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nemov-20240819011700-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span>A</b> I really don't understand this obsession with creating RFCs about this topic. Are we approaching 10 the past couple of months? Almost all of them ending with the same way. There's nothing wrong with the <b>status quo.</b> <a href="/wiki/User:Nemov" title="User:Nemov">Nemov</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nemov" title="User talk:Nemov">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Nemov-20240819011700-Emiya1980-20240817013300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:17, 19 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nemov-20240819011700-Emiya1980-20240817013300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nemov-20240819011700-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Alexysun-20240823073400-Nemov-20240819011700"></span>Wait—has there actually been 10 RfCs about this particular Infobox picture? <a href="/wiki/User:Alexysun" title="User:Alexysun">Alexysun</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Alexysun" title="User talk:Alexysun">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Alexysun-20240823073400-Nemov-20240819011700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:34, 23 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Alexysun-20240823073400-Nemov-20240819011700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Alexysun-20240823073400-Nemov-20240819011700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nemov-20240823130200-Alexysun-20240823073400"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Alexysun" title="User:Alexysun">Alexysun</a> No, on various other biographies. There's a few open at the moment. <a href="/wiki/User:Nemov" title="User:Nemov">Nemov</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nemov" title="User talk:Nemov">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Nemov-20240823130200-Alexysun-20240823073400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:02, 23 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nemov-20240823130200-Alexysun-20240823073400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nemov-20240823130200-Alexysun-20240823073400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Howardcorn33-20240820231800-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span>A</b>: High quality, colored image during the most prominent point of his lifetime. ―<span style="border: 1px solid black; padding: 1px; border-radius: 5px;"><a href="/wiki/User:Howardcorn33" title="User:Howardcorn33"><b>Howard</b></a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Howardcorn33" title="User talk:Howardcorn33">🌽<sup>33</sup></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Howardcorn33-20240820231800-Emiya1980-20240817013300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:18, 20 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Howardcorn33-20240820231800-Emiya1980-20240817013300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Howardcorn33-20240820231800-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span> <dl><dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Howardcorn33-20240905132900-Howardcorn33-20240820231800"></span>Support C if A gets deleted from Commons</b> ―<span style="border: 1px solid black; padding: 1px; border-radius: 5px;"><a href="/wiki/User:Howardcorn33" title="User:Howardcorn33"><b>Howard</b></a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Howardcorn33" title="User talk:Howardcorn33">🌽<sup>33</sup></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Howardcorn33-20240905132900-Howardcorn33-20240820231800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:29, 5 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Howardcorn33-20240905132900-Howardcorn33-20240820231800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Howardcorn33-20240905132900-Howardcorn33-20240820231800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Buidhe-20240823225000-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span>Oppose A</b> per the commons file description, "this work may not be in the public domain in the United States". We cannot use such images on English Wikipedia per copyright policy, which supersedes local consensus. It's unfortunate that many commons images break their own copyright policy, but that is a different conversation. (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Buidhe" title="User talk:Buidhe">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Buidhe" title="Special:Contributions/Buidhe">c</a>) <b><a href="/wiki/User:Buidhe" title="User:Buidhe"><span style="color: black">buidhe</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Buidhe-20240823225000-Emiya1980-20240817013300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Buidhe-20240823225000-Emiya1980-20240817013300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Buidhe-20240823225000-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Howardcorn33-20240824090900-Buidhe-20240823225000"></span>If you believe the photo is ineligible for commons, then it is prudent to nominate said file for deletion on commons itself. ―<span style="border: 1px solid black; padding: 1px; border-radius: 5px;"><a href="/wiki/User:Howardcorn33" title="User:Howardcorn33"><b>Howard</b></a> • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Howardcorn33" title="User talk:Howardcorn33">🌽<sup>33</sup></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Howardcorn33-20240824090900-Buidhe-20240823225000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:09, 24 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Howardcorn33-20240824090900-Buidhe-20240823225000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Howardcorn33-20240824090900-Buidhe-20240823225000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Buidhe-20240824135400-Howardcorn33-20240824090900"></span>The problem with Commons is that deleting images is hit or miss because there are a significant number of users who don't agree with some of the copyright policies. See below for an explanation of why the image is not out of copyright in the US, which is the only thing that matters for enwiki copyright policy. Please keep in mind that, if you are adding an image to an enwiki article, it's not enough for the image to be hosted on Commons—you must verify that it follows all English Wikipedia copyright policies. (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Buidhe" title="User talk:Buidhe">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Buidhe" title="Special:Contributions/Buidhe">c</a>) <b><a href="/wiki/User:Buidhe" title="User:Buidhe"><span style="color: black">buidhe</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Buidhe-20240824135400-Howardcorn33-20240824090900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:54, 24 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Buidhe-20240824135400-Howardcorn33-20240824090900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Buidhe-20240824135400-Howardcorn33-20240824090900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li><s><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20240824024200-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span> <b>A</b> </s> <u><b>Immediate procedural close</b></u>, best quality, most typical. If the image is not in the public domain, that is a complete deal-breaker for this Rfc, however: I am not a lawyer, but 1) "may not be in the public domain" is not a deal-breaker, and 2) my recollection is that copyright holders must defend their rights or they lose them (like Bayer lost "aspirin"). The Commons page offers a clear invitation to any copyright holder, if they exist, to apply to have the image removed, and explains how to do that right on the page. Until that happens, I believe we are free to use the image. The image has been there for three years, is in use in 27 Wikipedias, and six articles at en-wiki, without apparently eliciting any complaint. If there is a question about copyright, anyone may raise a question at <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Copyright" class="extiw" title="c:Commons:Village pump/Copyright">c:Commons:Village pump/Copyright</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) 02:42, 24 August 2024 (UTC) <small>updated to 'Immediate procedural close'; see comment below. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-20240824024200-Emiya1980-20240817013300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:13, 24 August 2024 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20240824024200-Emiya1980-20240817013300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20240824024200-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Buidhe-20240824025800-Mathglot-20240824024200"></span>If there is doubt about the copyright status, it is assumed to be copyrighted. Technically the <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/COM:PRP" class="extiw" title="c:COM:PRP">precautionary principle</a> is a commons policy, but in this case there is no evidence it is public domain according to us law—it doesn't seem like the French copyright would have expired by 1996 which it would need to be public domain here.</dd> <dd>There are millions of Commons images up for years that don't satisfy the copyright policy. Don't trust an image being on Commons because most encyclopedia editors and Commons users know nothing about copyright expiration.</dd> <dd>Patents are lost if not enforced, but that is <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://copyright.byu.edu/copyright-myths">not the case with copyrights</a>. (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Buidhe" title="User talk:Buidhe">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Buidhe" title="Special:Contributions/Buidhe">c</a>) <b><a href="/wiki/User:Buidhe" title="User:Buidhe"><span style="color: black">buidhe</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Buidhe-20240824025800-Mathglot-20240824024200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:58, 24 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Buidhe-20240824025800-Mathglot-20240824024200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Buidhe-20240824025800-Mathglot-20240824024200"></span></dd></dl></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20240824191300-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span>Comment</b> nobody here (afaik) is a U.S. copyright lawyer, and imho, this Rfc cannot go on while there is an unresolved issue about a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PG">policy with legal implications</a> affecting this Rfc that no one here is qualified to comment on. I will request an immediate procedural close of this Rfc on this basis, as I see no way for a closer to evaluate a consensus in the current circumstances. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-20240824191300-Emiya1980-20240817013300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:13, 24 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20240824191300-Emiya1980-20240817013300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20240824191300-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Alexysun-20240825213200-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> Hi Emiya, I'm interested to know what you have against the current portrait, or the reason you brought up this as an RfC? Currently the photo is A. What is wrong with photo A in your opinion? <a href="/wiki/User:Alexysun" title="User:Alexysun">Alexysun</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Alexysun" title="User talk:Alexysun">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Alexysun-20240825213200-Emiya1980-20240817013300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:32, 25 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Alexysun-20240825213200-Emiya1980-20240817013300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Alexysun-20240825213200-Emiya1980-20240817013300"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Emiya1980-20240826033500-Alexysun-20240825213200"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Alexysun" title="User:Alexysun">Alexysun</a>:</span> According to <a href="/wiki/MOS:LEADIMAGE" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:LEADIMAGE">MOS:LEADIMAGE</a> , "<i>lead images should be <b>natural</b> and appropriate representations of the topic.</i>" I think both <b>B</b> and <b>C</b> serve as more "natural" representations of Philippe Pétain than an artistic portrait clearly designed to lionize him as a statesman. <a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Emiya1980" title="User talk:Emiya1980">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Emiya1980-20240826033500-Alexysun-20240825213200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:35, 26 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Emiya1980-20240826033500-Alexysun-20240825213200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Emiya1980-20240826033500-Alexysun-20240825213200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Alexysun-20240826033800-Emiya1980-20240826033500"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> Dumb policy tbh in my opinion. Are they going to remove Churchill's picture now? Literally called The Roaring Lion. <a href="/wiki/User:Alexysun" title="User:Alexysun">Alexysun</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Alexysun" title="User talk:Alexysun">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Alexysun-20240826033800-Emiya1980-20240826033500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Alexysun-20240826033800-Emiya1980-20240826033500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Alexysun-20240826033800-Emiya1980-20240826033500"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Emiya1980-20240826034400-Alexysun-20240826033800"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Alexysun" title="User:Alexysun">Alexysun</a>:</span> The image to which you are referring is a posed photo taken of Churchill, not a hand-drawn portrait as in the present case. I should also point out that Churchill's legacy is significantly less ignominious than Pétain's. <a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Emiya1980" title="User talk:Emiya1980">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Emiya1980-20240826034400-Alexysun-20240826033800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:44, 26 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Emiya1980-20240826034400-Alexysun-20240826033800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Emiya1980-20240826034400-Alexysun-20240826033800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Alexysun-20240826034700-Emiya1980-20240826034400"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> I doubt it's hand-drawn. I'm assuming it was originally taken in black and white and filled in with color manually. <a href="/wiki/User:Alexysun" title="User:Alexysun">Alexysun</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Alexysun" title="User talk:Alexysun">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Alexysun-20240826034700-Emiya1980-20240826034400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Alexysun-20240826034700-Emiya1980-20240826034400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Alexysun-20240826034700-Emiya1980-20240826034400"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:Alexysun" title="User:Alexysun"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Emiya1980-20240826034900-Alexysun-20240826034700"></span>Alexysun</a> In that case, the original black-and-white photograph would be preferred. That's my opinion anyhow. <a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Emiya1980" title="User talk:Emiya1980">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Emiya1980-20240826034900-Alexysun-20240826034700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Emiya1980-20240826034900-Alexysun-20240826034700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Emiya1980-20240826034900-Alexysun-20240826034700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Buidhe-20240826140900-Emiya1980-20240826034900"></span>Yes, besides the copyright issues with this image, I don't agree with color for its own sake, only if the color is from the original photograph and an actual representation of the subject's appearance. (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Buidhe" title="User talk:Buidhe">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Buidhe" title="Special:Contributions/Buidhe">c</a>) <b><a href="/wiki/User:Buidhe" title="User:Buidhe"><span style="color: black">buidhe</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Buidhe-20240826140900-Emiya1980-20240826034900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Buidhe-20240826140900-Emiya1980-20240826034900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Buidhe-20240826140900-Emiya1980-20240826034900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240831225600-Emiya1980-20240826033500"></span>I do not think that "natural", in the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEADIMAGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEADIMAGE">WP:LEADIMAGE</a> style guideline, is meant to imply "doesn't lionize him as a statesman". The meaning is closer to "not overly contrived". Where senior politicians are concerned, an official portrait that "lionizes" them is "appropriate".</dd> <dd>The same sentence in the MOS that says "Lead images should be natural and appropriate representations of the topic" goes on to say that they should "also be the type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works". Official portraits are definitely used for similar purposes and fully comply with the guideline. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-WhatamIdoing-20240831225600-Emiya1980-20240826033500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-WhatamIdoing-20240831225600-Emiya1980-20240826033500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-WhatamIdoing-20240831225600-Emiya1980-20240826033500"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Emiya1980-20240906214100-Emiya1980-20240826033500"></span>I cast my vote for <b>C</b>. <a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Emiya1980" title="User talk:Emiya1980">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Emiya1980-20240906214100-Emiya1980-20240826033500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:41, 6 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Emiya1980-20240906214100-Emiya1980-20240826033500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Emiya1980-20240906214100-Emiya1980-20240826033500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Emiya1980-20240831074900-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain"></span>Comment</b>: <b>A</b> has <s>just</s> recently been nominated for deletion on copyright grounds. <a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Emiya1980" title="User talk:Emiya1980">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Emiya1980-20240831074900-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:49, 31 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Emiya1980-20240831074900-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Emiya1980-20240831074900-Rfc_for_Lede_Image_of_Philippe_Pétain"></span> </p> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nemov-20240902184800-Emiya1980-20240831074900"></span>Comment</b> I'd recommend withdrawing RFC. A simple discussion can sort out a replacement image if <b>A</b> is deleted. Getting everyone to change their votes would be more of a time sink. I'm fine with whatever that discussion produces. <a href="/wiki/User:Nemov" title="User:Nemov">Nemov</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nemov" title="User talk:Nemov">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Nemov-20240902184800-Emiya1980-20240831074900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nemov-20240902184800-Emiya1980-20240831074900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nemov-20240902184800-Emiya1980-20240831074900"></span></li></ul> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-BrocadeRiverPoems-20240911180400-Emiya1980-20240831074900"></span>Comment</b>: Is this RfC still happening? Has the image changed? Someone has described A as a portrait, but presently I am seeing a photograph. If the options have changed, then the RfC votes are now inaccurate?<b><a href="/wiki/User:BrocadeRiverPoems" title="User:BrocadeRiverPoems"><span style="font-family:vivaldi; color:Purple;">Brocade River Poems (She/They)</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-BrocadeRiverPoems-20240911180400-Emiya1980-20240831074900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:04, 11 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-BrocadeRiverPoems-20240911180400-Emiya1980-20240831074900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-BrocadeRiverPoems-20240911180400-Emiya1980-20240831074900"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Isaidnoway-20240912172300-Emiya1980-20240831074900"></span>A</b> - the current image is by far the best quality.<a href="/wiki/User:Isaidnoway" title="User:Isaidnoway"><b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:blue"> <i>Isaidnoway</i> </b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Isaidnoway" title="User talk:Isaidnoway"><b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:#03B54F"><i>(talk)</i></b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Isaidnoway-20240912172300-Emiya1980-20240831074900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:23, 12 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Isaidnoway-20240912172300-Emiya1980-20240831074900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Isaidnoway-20240912172300-Emiya1980-20240831074900"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Buidhe-20240913004300-Emiya1980-20240831074900"></span>Comment</b> You see the problem with assuming Commons keeping an image means it is OK to use for copyright purposes. In the discussion, one of the admins noted for disregarding Commons copyright policies decided to close as keep, despite evidence to the contrary (compare his statement to what it actually says in <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/COM:PRP" class="extiw" title="c:COM:PRP">c:COM:PRP</a>). It's irrelevant whether the copyright holder can be located or plans to enforce their copyright. Any comments here that don't address the issue of whether the image is <b>free to use according the US copyright law</b> (per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights" title="Wikipedia:Copyrights">WP:Copyrights</a>) should be discarded by the closer. (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Buidhe" title="User talk:Buidhe">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Buidhe" title="Special:Contributions/Buidhe">c</a>) <b><a href="/wiki/User:Buidhe" title="User:Buidhe"><span style="color: black">buidhe</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Buidhe-20240913004300-Emiya1980-20240831074900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:43, 13 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Buidhe-20240913004300-Emiya1980-20240831074900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Buidhe-20240913004300-Emiya1980-20240831074900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nemov-20240913020400-Buidhe-20240913004300"></span>If you believe there's an issue with the deletion decision you should look into to challenging the close. Your opinion about the close is rather irrelevant in regards to this discussion. <a href="/wiki/User:Nemov" title="User:Nemov">Nemov</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nemov" title="User talk:Nemov">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Nemov-20240913020400-Buidhe-20240913004300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:04, 13 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nemov-20240913020400-Buidhe-20240913004300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nemov-20240913020400-Buidhe-20240913004300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Buidhe-20240913053900-Nemov-20240913020400"></span>It doesn't matter what decision is made on Commons. We can only use the image here <b> if it complies with English Wikipedia copyright policies</b>, which is not the case—and nobody has even made a policy based argument why it is. (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Buidhe" title="User talk:Buidhe">t</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Buidhe" title="Special:Contributions/Buidhe">c</a>) <b><a href="/wiki/User:Buidhe" title="User:Buidhe"><span style="color: black">buidhe</span></a></b> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Buidhe-20240913053900-Nemov-20240913020400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:39, 13 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Buidhe-20240913053900-Nemov-20240913020400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Buidhe-20240913053900-Nemov-20240913020400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Emiya1980-20240919003000-Buidhe-20240913004300"></span>Comment</b>: I also think it bears mentioning that a clear majority of editors (4 to 1) voted in favor of the image's deletion prior to this admin's decision to unilaterally close the discussion and make a "keep" ruling. <a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Emiya1980" title="User talk:Emiya1980">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Emiya1980-20240919003000-Buidhe-20240913004300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Emiya1980-20240919003000-Buidhe-20240913004300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Emiya1980-20240919003000-Buidhe-20240913004300"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20240919055100-Emiya1980-20240919003000"></span>Emiya1980</a>, just fyi: the discussion is not closed, it is open, and anyone may feel free to continue discussing. If it were closed, the whole conversation would be boxed with a rectangular border and shaded background color, along with a statement at the top that the discussion is closed. Since none of that is present, the discussion is not closed.</dd> <dd>What has happeed, is that the Rfc reached the standard expiry age of one month, which triggered Legobot to remove the Rfc header in <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1245954031" title="Special:Diff/1245954031">this edit</a>. At some point, an uninvolved editor may come along and close it, and until that happens, anyone is welcome to add their thoughts.</dd> <dd>Finally, if in mentioning that "an admin" decided to close it you were referring to <a href="/wiki/User:Buidhe" title="User:Buidhe">User:buidhe</a>, they are not an admin. Cheers, <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Mathglot-20240919055100-Emiya1980-20240919003000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:51, 19 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20240919055100-Emiya1980-20240919003000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20240919055100-Emiya1980-20240919003000"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Emiya1980-20240919055800-Emiya1980-20240919003000"></span>I am speaking in regards to the deletion discussion on Wikimedia Commons concerning the lede image, NOT the Rfc. <a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Emiya1980" title="User talk:Emiya1980">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Emiya1980-20240919055800-Emiya1980-20240919003000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Emiya1980-20240919055800-Emiya1980-20240919003000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Emiya1980-20240919055800-Emiya1980-20240919003000"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nemov-20240919154700-Emiya1980-20240919003000"></span>This close was disscussed in more detail here<a class="external autonumber" href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Copyright#Non_policy_based_closure_decision">[4]</a> and it appears there's a consensus to keep the image. <a href="/wiki/User:Nemov" title="User:Nemov">Nemov</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nemov" title="User talk:Nemov">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Nemov-20240919154700-Emiya1980-20240919003000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:47, 19 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nemov-20240919154700-Emiya1980-20240919003000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nemov-20240919154700-Emiya1980-20240919003000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Emiya1980-20240923214800-Nemov-20240919154700"></span>Given that it is unlikely that Petain's lede image will be deleted in the foreseeable future, can somebody go ahead and close this Rfc?<a href="/wiki/User:Emiya1980" title="User:Emiya1980">Emiya1980</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Emiya1980" title="User talk:Emiya1980">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Emiya1980-20240923214800-Nemov-20240919154700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:48, 23 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Emiya1980-20240923214800-Nemov-20240919154700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Emiya1980-20240923214800-Nemov-20240919154700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Compassionate727-20241018112100-Emiya1980-20240831074900"></span>I was originally planning to close this, but after receiving advice, I will instead vote <b>not A</b>.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>I think there remain difficult questions about whether this work is public domain both in France and the United States despite the relevant Commons discussions. On the French side, it seems unclear that this work meets the criteria necessary to enter the public domain 70 years after publication. The information box asserts that the author is anonymous, but I see no indication of this at the source, and while the identity of the author is unknown today, this is quite distinct from the real requirement that their identity must never have been disclosed. This is more difficult to establish, and I see no evidence establishing it. On the American side, I am dubious that <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:PD-US-alien_property" title="Template:PD-US-alien property">PD-US-alien property</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> applies. It is clear that the image in question is a colored version of <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10336769n/f25.item">https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10336769n/f25.item</a>, and while it is plausible that the Vichy government held the copyright to the original photo (though this remains unproven), I doubt the French government colored it, and I suspect that coloring a black and white photograph is sufficiently creative to grant a derivative copyright (although input on this point would be appreciated) which the US government would not have seized.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>Although enwiki doesn't explicitly have an equivalent of Commons' <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Precautionary_principle" class="extiw" title="commons:Commons:Precautionary principle">precautionary principle</a>, policy does forbid linking to works you suspect contain copyright violations (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COPYLINK" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COPYLINK">WP:COPYLINK</a>); it is surely implicitly forbidden to directly use such material. The closer of this discussion needs to make a determination about the copyright status of this work, and given Commons' extensive problems, I don't think simply saying "it was okay with Commons, and that's good enough for me" is an adequate examination of the issue. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">—<a href="/wiki/User:Compassionate727" title="User:Compassionate727">Compassionate727</a> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Compassionate727" title="User talk:Compassionate727">T</a>·<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Compassionate727" title="Special:Contributions/Compassionate727">C</a>)</sup></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Compassionate727-20241018112100-Emiya1980-20240831074900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:21, 18 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Compassionate727-20241018112100-Emiya1980-20240831074900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Compassionate727-20241018112100-Emiya1980-20240831074900"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Felix_QW-20241018173700-Emiya1980-20240831074900"></span>Comment</b> Regarding the copyright situation, it may or may not be helpful to note that the English Wikipedia only requires an image to be in the public domain in the US; while the copyright status in France is an issue for Commons, we can even host images that are free in the US but not in their country of origin here locally. So at least any copyright discussion at the English Wikipedia can focus on American copyright, while the argument of anonymous publication or not should be moot for use at the English Wikipedia. <a href="/wiki/User:Felix_QW" title="User:Felix QW">Felix QW</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Felix_QW" title="User talk:Felix QW">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philippe_P%C3%A9tain#c-Felix_QW-20241018173700-Emiya1980-20240831074900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:37, 18 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Felix_QW-20241018173700-Emiya1980-20240831074900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Felix_QW-20241018173700-Emiya1980-20240831074900"></span></li></ul> <div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div> </div><div style="clear:both;" class=""></div>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philippe_Pétain&oldid=1252936438">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philippe_Pétain&oldid=1252936438</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:C-Class_level-5_vital_articles" title="Category:C-Class level-5 vital articles">C-Class level-5 vital articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_level-5_vital_articles_in_People" title="Category:Wikipedia 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