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<!DOCTYPE html><html lang="en-US"><head><title>Watch "Presto Change-O" | New Yorker Festival | The New Yorker</title><meta charSet="utf-8"/><meta content="IE=edge" http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible"/><meta name="msapplication-tap-highlight" content="no"/><meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1"/><meta name="author" content="Condé Nast"/><meta name="copyright" content="Copyright (c) Condé Nast 2024"/><meta name="description" content="A panel on magic with Matthew Holtzclaw, Charles Reynolds, Jamy Ian Swiss, Johnny Thompson, and Adam Gopnik."/><meta name="id"/><meta name="keywords" content=""/><meta name="news_keywords" content=""/><meta name="robots" content="index, follow, noarchive, max-image-preview:large"/><meta name="content-type" content="video"/><meta name="parsely-post-id"/><meta name="parsely-metadata" content="{"description":"A panel on magic with Matthew Holtzclaw, Charles Reynolds, Jamy Ian Swiss, Johnny Thompson, and Adam Gopnik."}"/><meta 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aria-hidden="true"><div class="consumer-marketing-unit__slot consumer-marketing-unit__slot--paywall-bar-call-to-action"></div><div class="journey-unit"></div></div></aside></div><main id="main-content" tabindex="-1" class="BasePageMainContent-kFvAuh ldxjwU page__main-content"><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK ieHMWX grid grid-items-2 ContentWithRightRail-bYRbzQ jBLXqD cne-video-body grid-layout--right-rail"><div class="GridItem-buujkM ckUkOW grid--item grid-layout__content"><div data-testid="CneVideoContent" class="CneVideoContent-iPlGJN cgCSJj"><div data-testid="CneVideoWatchPageContainer" class="CneVideoWatchPageContainer-dHuvux ufpnT CneVideoWatchPageContainer video-container" style="padding-top:56.25%"><script type="application/ld+json">{"@context":"https://schema.org","@type":"VideoObject","name":"\"Presto Change-O\"","contentUrl":"https://www.newyorker.com/video/watch/presto-change-o","description":"A panel on magic with Matthew Holtzclaw, Charles Reynolds, Jamy Ian Swiss, Johnny Thompson, and Adam Gopnik.","thumbnailUrl":["https://dwgyu36up6iuz.cloudfront.net/heru80fdn/image/upload/c_fill,d_placeholder_thenewyorker.png,fl_progressive,g_face,h_1080,q_80,w_1920/v1396694510/thenewyorker_presto-change-o.jpg"],"uploadDate":"2008-10-14T00:00:00Z","duration":"PT01H11M02S"}</script><figure class="CneVideoEmbedFigure-kCfJjN cXJJqp cne-video-embed"><div id="video-container" data-testid="script-container"></div></figure></div><div class="GridWrapper-cAzTTK ieHMWX grid grid-items-1"><div class="GridItem-buujkM kHPPIF grid--item grid-layout__details"><div><h1 class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ GridDetailsHed-gvhQzS iUEiRd bPjmBc hed">"Presto Change-O"</h1><div class="TabsWrapper-dIUrJy cCsEon tabs-component TabAndTabSectionWrapper-fDshys jEXWjy align-left" role="tablist"><nav aria-label="Secondary" tabindex="-1" class="NavigationWrapper-bFftAs kbFILU" data-testid="navigation"><ul class="NavigationListWrapper-gWXLVS eQttuP navigation__list" data-testid="navigation__list"><li class="NavigationListItemWrapper-cxLZKD eyFDxF navigation__list-item" data-testid="navigation__list-item"><a role="tab" tabindex="0" aria-selected="true" class="NavigationInternalLink-cWEaeo kBANef watch-page--tab-link watch-page--tab-link--active watch-page--tab-link--disabled navigation__link" href="#about" data-testid="navigation__internal-link">About</a></li></ul></nav><div class="TabsContentWrapper-jnMXFX bWCRYg"><div role="tabpanel" tabindex="0" class="TabsPanel-dugBWX bQJFHA"><div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ About-dxeYVs iUEiRd kbYuHY kpScjZ"><div>A panel on magic with Matthew Holtzclaw, Charles Reynolds, Jamy Ian Swiss, Johnny Thompson, and Adam Gopnik.</div><ul class="AboutSectionRelatedLinks-bcfXHh dHMDcV"><li><a href="http://nyr.kr/1jtgb47">Read More</a></li></ul>Released on 10/14/2008</div><div class="TranscriptWrapper-hGQQXY eVMnyn"><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TranscriptHeading-hfjqKn bmzxCs gnjaHo">Transcript</div><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ TranscriptSectionWrapper-AzyBZ iUEiRd dnzHJB WHQmG">Ladies and gentlemen, I'm Adam Gopnik.Welcome to The New Yorker Festival,and to this morning's program.And, let me give you, Jamy Ian Swiss.Thank you.Magic is our subject this morningand we are blessed to havefour remarkable magicians with usto talk about magic.And it's the art of magic, the skill of magic,the technique of magic and, above all,the meaning of magic.Jamy Ian Swiss, my good friend,is a magician and essayist.He is, as you've just seen,a remarkable sleight of hand man,but he also has an extraordinary mentalist show,called, Heavy Mental.He is a producer and regularat Monday Night Magic,New York's longest running magic show.And he was one of the crucial subjectsof the piece I did about magic,called, The Real Work,and my Virgil into the infernos of magic, Jamy Ian Swiss.Matt Holtzclaw, down at this end, elegantly dressed,pocket square complete for a Sunday morning,is one of the most gifted close-up card menof his generation.He is also a regular at Monday Night Magicin the close-up card slot.But beyond that, he has also starteda fascinating career as a consultant.As a theatrical consultant.And he worked with Teller of Penn & Telleron an absolutely extraordinary productionof Macbeth that included illusion, Grand-Guignol effectsand was completely riveting,which we all got to see last year here,out in New Jersey and in Washington, D.C.and he's now engaged on two moretheatrical productions,in which he's going to serve as the magic consultant.That's Matt Holtzclaw.[applause]And I hope Jamy and Matt, two dear friends,will not be offended if I say, them you can see any time.Our two other guests are really the magi of magic.They are men who have defined and inhabitedand made magic, in both cases, forhalf a century or more.Charles Reynolds has beenat the heart of magic for many years.He had a second career as the picture editorof Popular Photography.He was Doug Henning's magic consultantin the great magic Rrnaissance of the 1970sand he is a simply endless fountof magic lore and magic meaning.Charles Reynolds.[applause]And I think it's fair to say,If John doesn't mind my saying it,that he has been in magic more than 60 years now.And John Thompson has performed, consultedas the Great Tomsoni, he's a genuinely legendary figurewith his wife Pam, as a performer,but he is also consulted probably with moregenerations of magicians than anyone I can think of.From his own time right up to the present daywhen he's worked with magiciansas varied as Lance Burton and Chris Angelto keep them on the magical straight and narrow.Truly a legend, John Thompson.[applause]Is it just me?You said I'm old.Before I get off on my first questionwhich I had planned,I couldn't help, as I approached, I got here latehaving confused 17 and seven after pier.When I was coming up to the green room,I heard raucous and joyful laughtercoming from the green room,and I said to someone,That's where they are.I wrote, after spending almost two yearshanging around magicians,that it seemed to me, magicians, for all of theirunhappiness and the natural competativenessand envy and everything else that comes withbeing a human being,had the happiest shop talk, and the greatest camaraderie,of any group of artists I'd ever known.Is that an outsider's illusion?Or is there some truth to that?No, I absolutely agree.I've been an actor, a musician, an orchestratorand a comedian, but, in magic there's the greatestcamaraderie of anywhere else in show business.There's nothing like it.I mean, I've been stranded in different partsof the world and could pick up a phoneand call a magician I didn't knowand they'd be there to help you.And it is, it's like no other society in our business.Why is that?Is it because there's a combination ofshow business and secretiveness?You guys can't really talk to civilians about the craft.You can only talk to each other, really,about the real work, about which you're doing?That may have a lot to do with it, yes.There is some truth to it.I'm not usually one to wax romanticabout such notions, but it is truethat you can be in a placeand find a local magician and have a place to stay.And I've done the same.I've had magicians call and say,So-and-so gave me your name,and they get a couch that night.And that is part of the culture.[Adam] Not true about writers.Well you're the one who said to mevery early on in this,that, Jesus, writers get togetherand all we do is bitch about our agents.You get together and you talk about the work.[John] That's right.I think that's true.Getting started as a magician, one of the things...We were talking about Shakespeareyesterday afternoon, a lesser subject,the actors who were on stage had a momentwhen they sort of became converted to Shakespeare.When it stopped being just somethingyou were compelled to do at schooland it became something that was part of your life.I think it's certainly a cliche at least,that magicians are 12 year old boyswho are socially awkward and they find magic.Is that something that happened to all of you?Charles?Yeah.Absolutely.Magic is like a disease, you know.Fortunately, the final cure isn't that it's fatal,although it's very likelyto screw up anyone's life who's involved in it.It's truly an obsession.And it's a calling.And that's why it's so difficult to get someone...I think one of the biggest mistakesyou can possibly make,is to try to convince someonethat they should get involved in magic.[John] Even be harder to tryand convince them to get out of magic.True.But, you know, a lot of parents,they love magic.They've been hooked on magic all their lives,so they try to get their kids interested in it.And it never, never works.[Jamy] Never turns out well.It never turns out well.Right.It's invariably an amateur culture thing, right?You see that in the magic club, I think.In other words, it's the exceptional professionalwho tries to get his kid to follow in his footsteps, right?Really not that many of those.We can name a few, but really not that many.I think that mostly happens withthe amateur, sort of living out the dream,the unfulfilled dream in the child.And you end up seeing these odd little robotic,you've seen this at magic event.[John] Many times.I once saw, many years ago, at Fector's,I once saw a guy take his six year old kidin a tuxedo and an already out of style velvet bow tieand a ruffled shirt and stand him on a tableas if he was a ventriloquist puppetdoing a magic trick.It was really, gives me nightmares now.You had to bring all that back to me, Charles.[John] And Jamy didn't want to say he was the kid.[all laughing]We all are the ventriloquist.One of the things that makes iteven more horrible,is that the kids learn the linesthat they have seen other magicians,bad magicians... Breakaway wandand behind the [mumbles].Things like, for this next trickI need the help of a pretty stranger.You, sir look pretty strange to me.Those are the jokes. During my recent tripto China, I met an old magician named, Foo Ling Yu.[angry gagging][finger gun firing]I knew an eight year old girlwho learned a card trick that began,I was in a bar the other night.Yeah, exactly.Or, you have the eight year old kid who says,While traveling through the Orient,I chanced upon a most amazing legend.[Jamy] Exactly.[Adam] Matt, you grew up down south.Did you have a eureka moment, when you said,Actually, this is not just for kids, this is for my life.Yeah, it was Penn & Teller on TV.Penn & Teller, Harry Anderson, I saw magic a lot.There was a lot of it on TV at the time.But, in church, there was a youth ministerwho did gospel magic.Oh yes.[laughter]Where you have three unequal ropesthat are three types of sinners.A liar, a thief and a murderer,but in God's eyes, they're all the same length.Oh stop.We get it, stop.I saw that and I liked magic,but I knew I didn't like that.But that was one of the first, I mean,that's the first live magic I ever saw,was Jesus, did the card,the card appeared,and Jesus could, the thing.So I think that was it.I love the south, and I'm fond of that culture,but there is a lot ofstrange beliefs in real magic down there.And also, too, there's sort of an essence of,I actually had kids tell me thatthis is the devil's stuff.This is the devil's work.You know, lying, and I went,neat.There is actually this,if you go into a magic shopanywhere in the south,you will have a part,one of the counters is about gospel magic.You will see books about gospel magic.Gospel magic being a branch of magicthat uses trickery to illustratethe genuine miracles of the bible.[laughter][Charles] And the red silk is...Yes, exactly.Let's pick that up for a moment,'cause doesn't that touch on, sort of,not a paradox, but a complexity that's built into magic.That is, you're doing things that are there to astonish.That look as though they're not possible,and yet they're built on the basis ofincredibly complicated techniquethat you spend a lifetime mastering.So, Jamy, I know you once wrote thatin all other art forms, technique has to be transparent,in magic it has to be invisible.And that's what sets magic off from every other form.Could you talk a little bit about that?Magic, I once said, is the only art formin which there's no magic.In other words, you can't rely just onthe improvisation of the moment.It relies on the absolute mastery of the technique.Well yeah, the better you are, the less you see.It really is a simple way of stating it.We have one of the few art forms that the art is hidden.And it has to be.Is it possible, John,for someone to be such a good performerthat they can overcome a sloppy or second-rate technique?In magic?One would hope so.[laughter][Adam] Is there a figure in history?I know there are.Yeah, that is true, I do think.We could think of a number of examples.You know, Teller comes to mind.Teller told me a story once about Jack Chanin.Now Chanin, in his prime, was a great technician,but Teller tells a story about,Jack Chanin was a wonderful magician,a professional magician, but also, later,a magic dealer from Philadelphia.And he was the guy with the local magic storewhere Teller grew up, when teller was a kid.And Chanin was a wonderful character.And, as I say, a great sleight of hand man,but, Teller tells a story about seeing Chaninlate in his life, when Jack was sort of past his prime,and he was doing this torn and restored paper napkin,and didn't realize that he was flashing the hellout of the extra napkin.But Teller says--[Adam] Flashing meaning that he wasshowing it without intending to.Yeah, you could see the extra piecewithout knowing it.But, Teller said, he just did it with such conviction,and such drama and focus,that it almost made the extra disappear for youjust by dint of the performance.I mean, there's a threshold there, obviously that you can't.Chanin, by the way, could do magic with anything.He would be in any situation,he could pick up somethingand do a trick with it.And he ran a magic shop.And when he wanted something new to sell,he would go to what, in those days,were the five and dime stores,and he'd just wander around and buy all this junkand invent tricks with it and sell them.You mean, just ordinary objectsthat he would then gaff, or he would findsomething you could do with it?Not necessarily gaffing, just found something he could.You can do two in the hand, one in the pocketwith just about four of anything.Yes, right.Let's talk a bit about the history ofmagic in the 20th Century in America.The first name, still,all these years laterthat most amateurs know about magic is Houdini.And yet, within magic,Houdini, is it fair to say,is a slightly, I don't want to say controversial,but a complex figure, let's say.True, those who knew him,Did you ever see him, Charles?[Charles] I'm old.But you're not that old.[Charles] But I'm not that old.It just dawned on me, he died in 1926.Yeah, you're not that old.But, I did have a mentor and several friendswho did see him, and they say he was a far betterescapologist, you know, than he was a magician.He frustrated magicians.He called himself, King of Cards, right?Yeah.Yeah, early in his career.He never lacked for--Chutzpah. Bravado.Chutzpah, yeah, bravado, yes.Controversial is really the right word,because even today, within the magic community,there are violent argumentsabout where exactly he stands.[Adam] Explain that.I come down firmly on both sides.[Adam] The only place to be in a political season.Exactly, because, on the one hand, it's true.He was not a skilled or accomplished magician.Vernon used to tell us, well, we're gonnatalk about Dai Vernon, the greatest sleight of hand magicianof the 20th Century and the most influential artistof 20th Century magic,and Vernon would tell a story aboutHoudini being in townand calling Vernon up and saying,Come on up and I want you to show me that,It was the egg on fan, wasn't it?[John] Yes.Egg on fan trick.Classical, classic Chinese trick.And Vernon went backstage and showed it to him,and Houdini walked out on stage and flubbed the trick,and, you know, just constant stories about this.And Vernon didn't like Houdini at all,but the real reason was,not only was he a bit of a slaggartin terms of sleight of hand,but because he was a bullyin his personal dealings with people.And that was, sort of the ultimate offense to Vernon.On the other hand,I think that Houdini was actuallya principled person in many ways.And his battle against phony mediumsand exposing psychics and the birth of parapsychologywas an important moral choice.His critics would say it was purely cynicaland a new way to get press,but I believe it ran much deeper than that.He began a tradition,he didn't begin a tradition,he took another giant step in a traditionin a link between magicians and critical thinkingthat goes back four centuries and continues today.Let's come back to that, Jamy,'cause it's an important theme,but since you mentioned Vernon,let's talk a bit about Vernon, if we might.When I was hanging out and trying to learna little bit about the history of magicit was remarkable to me that Dai Vernonis sort of like, Chuck Yeager is to astronauts,Dai Vernon is to magicians.He's the magician who every magician admires, idolizes,he's a crucial character in the developmentof modern sleight of hand,and three of you here on state, at least,knew him and knew him well.Who was he?Why does he matter so much to the history of magic?Charles?Well, I think he virtually transformed card magic.First, let's situate him.He was a young kid in Canadaat the turn of the last century.And did most of his work in the...He lived to be nearly 100.98, to be exact.98, and of course,never gave up on trying to improve card magic.It's very interesting.One of the very revered writers in magic,or I would think a revered writer,was a man named Jean Hugard.And Jean Hugard, who was a fan of Vernonas a technician, but not a fan of Vernon as a performer.And I don't think Vernon was much of a performer,and I don't think he ever wanted to be a performer.It wasn't what really interested him.He was much more interested in developing the technique.But Vernon was powerfully influenced by a bookcalled The Expert At The Card Table,which was written by a writer thatnobody knows who he really was.He is known as Erdnase.And much of what Vernon did was based on Erdnaseand his improvements on it and so on.And Jean Hugard commented that he thoughtthat Vernon was, maybe in a way,kind of a negative influence.Because he was encouraging magiciansto think like gamblersrather than like magicians.Right.The thing about Erdnase is,this is that this is a bookthat was written about a professional card cheatthat was half about card cheating and half aboutsleight of hand magic, which is an unusual mix, actually.Most card cheats don't want to show their ability.And the man who remains anonymous,wrote the most famous book ever writtenabout sleight of hand with cards is an interesting storythat still fascinates magicians today.Vernon read this book when he was very youngand one of the things Erdnase says is thatthe important thing for the card cheatis that the person across the tableshould never even suspect, let alone detect.That's the quote, Suspect, let alone detectthat anything untoward has gone on.Now this is at the turn of the centurywhen stagecraft is sort of bombastic and large.Same thing if you look at the early silent filmsand you see that style of actingthat was taken from the stage of the time.This was before naturalism in acting.It's before naturalism in any kind of performance.And so, you'd have grand sweeping gesturesand unnatural kinds of movementsthat magicians would useand it was just accepted by audiencesthat this was a requisite.This was part of what it was.And Vernon looked at this,and looked at Erdnase,and said, well wait a minute,if a gambler can do that,if a cheater can be so natural in his workthat no one even suspects he did sleight of hand,what would it be like if we couldapply that principle to magic?And so, Vernon is identifiedwith this concept of naturalism in magic.And really changes the styleof sleight of hand magic for the 20th Century.I think he was the greatest exponentof sleight of hand even beyond card magic.If you read the Vernon Book of Magic--[Jamy] I agree.it's loaded with wonderful pieces of sleight of hand.I got interested in magicbecause I wanted to be a card cheater.I saw a movie as a boy,when I was eight years old,about a Mississippi riverboat gamblerand I saw the derringer hatand the froth coat and the brocade vestand I said, That's what I want to be, a card cheater.[Adam] This was in Chicago?Yeah, this was in Chicago.I didn't know the boats were in dry dockand they didn't allow you to gamble on trains anymore,but I wanted to be that and,I bought this book, Expert At The Card Table.I remember I paid 35 cents for it,and I spent the next four years,Jamy mentioned, very prosaic work,I mean, they didn't call it card cheating,they called it card table artifice.Or advantage play.[Jamy] Advantage play.You know.And it took me the first six monthsjust to learn all the terms.I was an eight year old kid.And trying to apply them into my head.And then the next over four years I spenttrying to learn and master as much as I couldout of the book until I came to the rude awakening,there weren't a lot of places for a12 year old card cheater to work.[laughter]So I looked in the back of the bookand it showed you hot toutilize those same techniquesfor magic tricks.And they really were much more subtle thanwhat was going around at the time for magic.And, of course, Vernon expounded on this.And you know, you were sayinghe wasn't a very good performer,but I have to say that when he got to the Magic Castle,and influenced by Jay Osai,he turned out to be a very fine performer, so--[Jamy] In his seventies.In his seventies.Explain that, John, Magic Castle,the club in Los Angeles when he was in residence.Yes.The original concept was froma man named William Larsenwho was an attorney.Amateur magician, but full-time attorney,who also had a magic shop.And a very famous magic shop at the time.He had a partner, T. Page Wright,who invented magic with himand they used to sell a lot of it.And he always had a dreamof having a private club for magicians.And after he died, his two sonstook up that mantle and actually made it happen.And it's been the most illustriousprivate magic club in the history of magic.Located in southern California,and we've all been members of it here,and we've had many enjoyable night.It's one of the most wonderful places to gosee and view magic.[Adam] And Vernon was in residence there.Well he was a resident magician for--I think the fact that he was the resident magician there--Made the castle.It made the castle.Absolutely.'Cause Vernon was in New York when the Castle openedaround, what, 64?[John] Mm-hmm.And Vernon was in his sixtiesand moved to Hollywood to be the resident guru at the Castleand really began a whole 'nother phase of his lifebecause, as John said, he lived to 98and he was really vibrant until 95 or 96.[Adam] But you were saying, John, you think he becamea good performer in the more intimate--In his seventies at the Castle.In his seventies.The other thing that's interesting,wherever Vernon was,the nucleus of magic kind of was centered.When he was in New York, it was New York.It was the Mecca of magic,especially sleight of hand.When he went to the west coast,we all went out there to live and beby Vernon, and to learn from him.I know certainly I did, and it was a real joy.I had another mentor, Charlie Miller,who was also a student of Vernon'swho was equally brilliant.And both of them werein residence at the Castlefor many, many years.It's one of the things I struggled to try and understand,what was meant by naturalism,what was meant by Vernonsating,And the one guy herewho didn't know Vernon, Matt,I wonder if you would show us something.Sure.[Adam] That comes out of Vernon's traditionand what Vernon invented and gave to magic.[Matt] There it is.Thank you so much.Hi, everybody.[One Woman In Audience] Hi.You'll have to pardonthe solid, unforgiving sinew of my forearms.[laughter]That's easy for you to say.[laughter]You know, usually when you see a guyin a suit roll up his sleeveshe's gonna wash dishes or deliver a baby.Engage in a Victorian fist fight or something.But no, this is just so that you knowthat I am not cheating.Which, of course, I already am.No, this trick, this is one of the ones I learnedfrom the Vernon Book of Magic.It's one of my favorites for many reasons.One being that, it's just this trick you getwhen you're a ten year old magician.You know, you get this series of props,and they're beautiful.But they're made for one thing, for this trick.No human being, other than a magician,has these and has a house.This kind of cup, unless you're a Vikingin a mead hall somewhere, that's the only time.Wa-ha-haa!But they're beautiful, you know.They don't have any buttons.That's what's kind of disappointing,they go back into the box really fast,they go back into the closetbecause they don't do anything for you.There's no special sliding mirrors,or doors, or smoke, or computers, nothing like that.Also, you get this with this set.You get one of these things.And you know what that is,that's a magic wand.The power staff, the phallus symbol of magic.Every profession has one of those, you know.And also, what's strange,the do do some things fun. [sharp clink]They're made of brass.Nice solid metal, but they are soft.They sound hard, but they actually candrop right through one another like that.And there's actually a, I mean, you can see thenice brass tip has a nice collision there,but it actually is pretty soft that way too.Stay in your seats, I know that's a--Now the most important part of this trick,I think, is the ball.I mean, it's not called the cups and balls for nothing.There's actually other two thatlive inside the wand, like that.Thank you.Actually, the third one actually lives inside the wand.You just spin it to make it come out and it,it appears there by itself sometimes.I'll do this nice and slow.Don't blink, unless you really want to.You might see how some of this stuff works.I promise you won't see everything,but regardless, at the endI'll show you basically how it's done.So watch closely.First ball.Goes away like that.I'll do it again.Based on that rousing response.[laughter]Actually put the ball in the hand,[quick cough]It completely goes away.[laughter][quick cough]I'd say it's gone, but...I'll have it back in the morning, though, it's okay.[quick cough]The last ball, of course,now some people think, you know, it goes away already.But what you do, you spin that wand again,it goes away just like,come on baby,goes away just like that.And of course,no, stop, wait for it,they end up inside their little houses just like that, guys.Thank you very much.[applause]The thing about this trick is that,you're so far away.I'd love for someone to come up and help me.Actually, you're right therewould you help me out?Please give her a round of applause, hi.[applause]What's your name?Alyssa.Alyssa, I'm Matt.Good to meet you.Alyssa, I'm going to transfer the powerof the wand to you.Be very careful.Treat it with respect.It's heavy, right?Very.$400.Isn't that amazing?Touch any cup you want.Just tap a cup with the wand.Any one you like.That one, the middle cup?Yes.I'll remove the ball invisibly.Mm-hmm.Tap this cup or this cup.[soft clink]That one, watch close.Goes straight through the top.There's proof, see, it goes right through like that.Isn't that great?[applause]Thank you, Alyssa.Stay here.No, you're not done.Actually, that was invisibly.This is visibly, when it goes through like thatyou can actually see the ball go through.If you actually do it again it goesstraight through the cup like that.You can actually see it appear there.Something?Tell you what,we'll do one more phase of thisand I'll show you how it works.You'll be here for it.You'll get to be right here and see it, all right?What you do, if you put the balls under the cups againjust tap these two on the end again.[soft clinks]So elegant.Perfect.Not two taps, one, I love it.These two [metal cup ringing] vanish.And reappear there.Yeah, thank you.Don't hesitate, it's okay.Now look, this is how the thing works.I mean, I promised I'd show you.Really the balls do under the cups,but there's just too much to pay attention to.There's three balls, there's three cups,there's a wand, I'm devilishly handsome.There's just too much.[laughter]Did I hear a woo from a guy back there?It's always a guy.See you after the show, sir.[laughter]Actually, they really do go under the cups, yeah?But I'll make it a little easier to follow.We'll get rid of this one.That'll make it a little bit easier.We're gonna actually put that onein the back pocket, like that.We actually get rid of this one too.Makes it a tad easier to followwhen you just have this one hereto pay attention to, yeah?Now the thing is, sometimes this one comes back.So you have to be careful.The way that works,this is the way the whole trick works, really,is you just kind of pretend to take the ball.It's what the call a false transfer.You kind of pretend to take it.So this empty hand pretends to go in my back pocket,and I lift up this empty cup,I slip this secret ball under the cup like that.So it looks like it was under the cup the whole time.Now you can do this at home with some cups.But what if cleanly I put it back in the back pocket?How many does that leave here?You remember how many?No.Actually, all three.I'll help you out, it's all three.[laughter and applause]It's fine.Thank you.Now, I know you're standing there with that wandwondering what's next.I'll put all three away nice and fair.Nothing fancy.Goes away.Tap any cup you like, it's up to you.[soft clink]Really, that one?Yeah.Can't be that one, cause that's where the lemon is.That's the thing.You can see it's a real solid, yeah.Real, you can eat it if you want to make sure.No, I'll tell you what, actually,the thing is, it couldn't really be under any cup,the three balls, 'cause actually,there's a lemon here, and there's a lemon here,and there's one here too.[laughter and applause]Thank you, Alyssa.Thank you.[Adam] That holds up.That holds up.They prevent scurvy, it's great.Thanks a lot guys.[Adam] Important for magicians.[Matt] Thank you.Matt, that was beautiful.[applause]Now, having seen that,that beautiful work,and Matt has his own charming handling of it,I know that that's this,that the inference is that the cups and ballsis an ancient number, isn't it?We claim it to be the first recorded magic trick.[Adam] Is that right?Yeah, and supposedly in hieroglyphicson the wall of a tomb,we've later found out that we think those thingswere really bread.[Jamy] Baking.It was a baking thing. Far be it from usto compare magic to the act of bread rising.But that's been the claim and it's,of course they used to judge a magician's skillby how well you did this.This was a determining factor.The wonderful thing about Vernon,by the way the entire routine that Matt didwas Vernon's routine,and very accomplished, very wonderful and very entertaining.[applause][Adam] What did Vernon add to itthat hadn't been there for 1,000 years?Vernon.His thinking.He modernized the cups and balls quite a bit.[Adam] Ending with the big ending, with the lemons?No that's been around.That's traditional, but the cups and ballswas a big trick.It was a busker's trick.[John] That's correct.You can see it in wood cuts,17th Century wood cuts and so forth,and it was a street trick.And what Vernon really did was,in the modern era,which many magicians don't recognize,is that Vernon was really the onewho turned it into a close-up trick.He was working in nightclubsin New York and elsewhere,and he adapted, he took the best,he was an orchestrator, Vernon was,I mean, he created the iconic routinesof the 20th Century forsome of our greatest standard routines.For the cups and balls,notably the cups and balls and the linking rings.With perhaps one notable exception,virtually every major cup and balls routineof the 20th Century is based on the Vernon routine.And the Vernon routine is basedon centuries of work before him.Some elements that go back to 19th Century booksand even before, but he made selections,added his own point of view, which later,colloquially became known as the Vernon touch,and transformed the routine into somethingthat was effective under intimate circumstancesthat you could do not just like this,but at a nightclub table.So for outsiders trying to understand the Vernon touch,that's not a bad way of understanding it.It was turning stage tricks, big presentational tricks,into intimate chamber kind of art.And also transforming them from puzzlesinto real mysteries.Yeah, almost to the miracle state.He was quite a colorful character, by the way.The only thing you're missing is his voice.I happen to do it a little bit.Vernon had this cantankerous attitude and voice,and he would talk like this.Good evening ladies and gentlemen,my name is Dai Vernon and I've been doing magicfor over four score.And he had this wonderful, kind of Frank Morganquality to his voiceand that added to his charm.Penn & Teller did a famous versionof the cups and balls on stagea few years ago, which was hugely controversial.Still doing it, by the way.Are they still doing it on stage?They're doing it in Vegas right now.And it's one of the wonderful things to see,but they, at least pretend to give away,how the trick is done.And that is what magicians, I've learned, call exposure.That is, showing how a trick is done,and it is anathema.Taboo among magicians.Could you talk a little bit about that?About the secrets of magic,why it is that it's so importantthat things not be public.Beyond the obvious fact you don't want totell how a trick is done.But there seems to be something even deeper than thatabout the taboo on exposure.Well, we're smiling because,this is a much bigger issue to amateur magiciansthan it is to professionals.And this issue of exposurehas been this long-standing controversy in magic,and yet, what magicians continually fail to realize is thatall of what we now regard as, or many of whatwe now regard as the great classics of magical literature,start as works of exposure.One of the most important books of the 19th Centurywas, Hoffmann's Modern Magic.It was originally serializedfor the public in a boy's magazine.Sachs's Sleight Of Hand,a great classic of sleight of sleight of hand magicin the late 19th Century, written for the public.So, the history of magic is the history of exposure,but, in amateur circles and hobbyist circles,we're raised with this dogma that exposure is bad.That somehow it's a moral issue.And as Teller likes to say No one ever diedover the secret of a magic trick,so how can it be a moral issue?And yet, there is this kind ofmagical thinking about it, if you will.There's going to be a newMasked Magician series on television.[Matt] Tomorrow.Starting tomorrow.Which, you know, then we'll all beout of business the next day.[Adam] Explain what that is.Well, the masked magician made these--[Charles] Don't give it a plug.Right, I mean, the Masked Magician was this idea,three magic specials that he did about 10 years ago,and now they have some new schmuck in a mask.[Matt] It's not the same schmuck?[John] Same mask, different schmuck.[laughter]Exactly.And, you know, we're gonna expose the secrets of magic.And the fact of the matter is, as Jim Steinmeyer says,The big secret in magic is that,magic guards an empty safe.The principles of magic are kind of ugly and primitive,and they're not what make magic.I always like to say,the method is not the trick.And if you think about any art,the method is never the trick.Knowing how to focus a cameradoesn't make you a filmmaker,knowing how to play a scaledoesn't make you a musician.Doesn't tell you anything about howanyone makes music, and magic is the same thing.Well the important principles in magicare psychological principles,not mechanical principles.And virtually every one of those principlesis embodied in the cups and balls, if you think about it,.That's correct. That's right.If you think about it,there's productions, vanishes,transpositions, transformations.And natural laws defied, the penetration.Yeah, that's correct.What are the psychological laws?What is it that you're...As I was looking out, I've watched magicians for years,this is the first time I've ever beenon this side of the trick,and it's a joy to look at the faces of peoplelooking at magic.It's obviously something more thanthey're being fooled, they're engaged.What is it that the magician is,what are you playing with in people's mindswhen you're doing magic?Well that's kind of a strange way to ask a question.Let me turn the question around.What is it that makes people want to watch magic?Ah.It isn't just that they want to be fooled.That's different.Well, I think it's almost intrinsic in people.I think almost every boy's been fascinatedwith magic at some time.As I once told you in a restaurantin Las Vegas, I got interested in itwhen I was eight years old,started really doing magic when I was 12,and I'm one of those who never grew up, you know.And as I've told you, I've seen what it does to peopleand I don't want to do that.But, magic is something I think we're allvery, very interested in, whether it goesback to our roots in religious upbringingand miracles and so forth,suspension of disbelief.I think it's just intrinsic with peopleto be fascinated with the art form.I think everyone deep down in their heartswants to believe in magic.[John] You said it much more succinctly, Charles.It seems like such a,I always talk about feeling powerless as a kidor feeling like you can't make your own decisions.You're told how things are,and magic is this thing wherewhat's broken is restored and,you know, money just appears out of nowhereand it's a display of power at it's heart.And then it, I think, hopefully,it becomes something more than thatas you get older.And I think that my least favorite magicians,it's simply a display of trivial power.You know, you tore up a playing card,you put it back together,but why'd you tear it up in the first place?There was no reason for anything to happen.And I wonder, you know, we talk about why girls,I know young girls who do magic,but they quickly stop.There's very few women magicians, and I--[Adam] My next question.Jamy has interesting thoughts on that about why--Women prefer dolls to magic wands.That's as simple as it is.You know, one of the most common questions you get is,How did you get started in magic?And especially when a man asks me that I always say,The same way you did.And that sort of takes a momentand gets the quizzical response,and I say, Well look, some time between the agesof seven and 10 you had a magic kitand you read a book on Houdini.And invariably, people say, Yeah, that's right.And I say, Right, and when you were 14 or 15,you discovered girls and I stayed home and practiced,and I don't know why--[laughter]I can't explain that.[John] Which he's still doing.Keep on trying until I get it right.Which, I can't explain why I stayed home practicing,but it at least solves the problem of how I got into it.We all get into it the same way.And I think that, especially for males,magic teaches important lessons,and it's almost sort of a Piaget type ofstage of childhood developmentbecause it teaches about critical thinking,it teaches important lessons,that the world is not always what it seems,things are not always what they seem.It's also a good social lubricant,which adolescent boys desperately need.And so that's where it starts.Why magic appeals to an audienceis a somewhat different issue.And I think that magic,I think that all art forms,embrace, have elements, of mystery in them.But I think magic is the only art formthat is defined by mystery.That it's primary purpose, focus, has to do with mystery.And mystery is an important partof the human experience,an important part of the human psyche.I also think that how we relate to mystery,how we meet mystery,we all meet mysteries in our world,and face different kinds of mystery in different ways.Some mysteries we want to deconstruct.We want to solve.Some mysteries we do not want to solve.But different people make different choices about that.And I think those choices connect withthe appeal of magic to audiences.And also to magicians.One of the things that we've often talked about,tried to write about is that thehistory of magic in the 20th Centuryhas sort of been a fevered chart.Moments of great enthusiasm for magic,and then long periods in the desertwhen people didn't respond to magic as muchand magic sort of went inside,but then there have been these peak moments as well.When magic has come alive again.And, Charles, you were intimately involvedwith one of those great peak moments,when Doug Henning brought magic backto Broadway and television in the 1970s.What happened then, that made magic,once again, a enormously popular art form?Well one of the things that we've got to rememberis that Doug Henning was a star.The whole thing of explaining why someone is a staris a very, mystical almost, thing.And Doug, who was a very good magician,as a stage performer, was an incredible winner.I mean, I've seen magicians come out on stageand work all evening in order to get a standing ovation.Doug Henning used to walk out on the stageand everybody gave him a standing ovationjust because he was there.And that explains the successof a lot of, certainly of his television shows,and of his stage shows.The Magic show, which was the first show he was in,ran for over 1,900 performances.At one point it was the ninth longestrunning show in Broadway history.Even Merlin, which, I thought it was a great show,even Merlin wasn't too shabby.It ran over 200 performances.These shows were a success,to a great degree because of Doug's personality.And of course then the worldfound out about him through television.Of course, one of the great ironiesis that television isn't a very good,in my opinion, is not a very good medium for magic.But the other side of it is,it's the only place that you can become a star.[Adam] Why is television a bad medium for magic?What is it about television that is inhospitable to magic?I think in magic you've got,there's a lot of people who talk aboutthe suspension of disbelief.Which was a phrase that was originated bySamuel Coleridge, the guy who wrote,The Rime Of The Ancient Mariner.And in Xanadu did Kubla Khan a pleasure dome decree.But in magic, you've got to bein the place where it's happening.When Matt does the cups and balls,you're gripped by itbecause you're thereand he's there and this is realityand we're in a real room.You know, you could get up and touch him.[Matt] You know the rules.In television, it's kind ofan illusion within the illusion.And we tried very, very hardwith the Henning shows,and the first Henning show was the largest ratedtelevision special, I think possibly of all-time.But certainly the highest rated magic special.It was see by over 50 million peopleand that was a lot of people in those days.But, it was television.And we did it live.And it went over the network liveto every city in the United States.And the reason was,we were trying to duplicatethat feeling of being therewhen it really happens.But it doesn't have the same impact.I mean, the kiss of deathwas when David Copperfield flew over the Grand Canyon.[Matt] Nightmarish.After that, you know, where do you go?[Matt] YouTube that.Yes.Why was that?For people who didn't see it,why was that the last gasp of magic on television?Because of the way it was shot,you knew that you were watching a camera trick.And it's very, very tempting.Once you're there and you've to those camerasand you can do things with them,it's very, very tempting to cheat.The issue of magic is one of credibility.And we all have designed and written magic for television.And credibility is a constant source of conversation.The effects of magic,what we call the effects,the fundamental effects of magic, tricks of magic,are essentially trivial.I can change a red ball to a green ball, worship me.[Charles] I do.And I know, Charles, and I so appreciate it.But, you can see all those fundamental effectsof magic in a 30 second TV commercial.So, therefore, what makes magic matter to people,as Charles says, is the conditions.The fact that it's live.And audiences know this.You all absolutely know this.Every magician has heard the sentence,Gee, I always thought if I was this closeI would see how it worked.The audience absolutely knows that distanceis a factor, a weapon that can be used against you.And we'll use anything against you we can.Including just lying.But the camera is also a weapon of distance.And it dilutes that credibility.And so, in the old days of magic specials,and Henning did a number of things,besides the fact that he was wildly charismatic,and became this superstar,but Henning took magic of the era,which was identified with top hat and tailsand put it in relatively contemporary dress.He would put it in tie-dyes and long hairand basically sort of hippy dress,about 10 years after the 60s,but, you know, if you're 10 years late in magic,you're cuttin' edge.And he made it accessible in that way.That was part of it also.But he also created the formatof how magic was done on TV for about 25 years.Until David Blaine came along and changed that.And the format was,that the celebrity guest said, I solemnly swearthat the magic you are about to see is all genuine and realand the camera will not cut away.And that was how you handled credibility.And credibility is this constant issueof trying to do magic on television.And it's a slippery slope.It's very tempting to do otherwise.And we're in an environment nowwhere the audience has sort ofcome to be distrustful, I think,of magic on TV and they should be.I think the audience, now,senses that they are being conned.The principles of lots of magic,of lots of cons, are the same.I think it's David Copperfieldflying over the Grand Canyon.He didn't help.Spoiled it for me.But he made a lot of money.But the difference between magic and a con,is that in magic,there are six secrets involved.There's really only one secret in a con of any kind.And that's that it's a on.That's the only secret.There is no other.Once they know that the pea under the shell isn't really--Right, con comes from confidenceof getting the marks confidencethat what they're seeing is real.That's right.Absolutely.Once the confidence is broken, the con is broken.And I think when people started breaking that confidencewith the television camera,it really did hurt magic a lot.I mean, who in the world believesthe stuff that Chris Angel is doing,except that it's a camera trick.I mean, I believe that.I believe it's a camera trick.[Jamy] Do you wanna consult with Chris?[Adam] John has been a consultant with Chris Angel.And I will say when I was in charge of the magic teamthere was no camera tricks. There were no camera tricks.I can honestly say that.Unfortunately, I was only in chargeof the magic team a year and a half.Part of the article that people bring upif they bring it up,they always, my friends have brought upthe too perfect theory.They'd never heard that before.And it's such a common ideain magic, now, for me thatI didn't think of it as being something exceptional.Explain what it is, Matt.It was one of the things that fascinated me most too,talking with magicians.Just that if there's no other possible method,other than the method.That if someone's flying over the Grand Canyonyou go, Oh, I can't see the helicopter and the wiresthat are holding him up.Because that's probably how,there's something like thatthat's holding the guy upif he's sitting cross-legged floating over the Grand Canyon.You see the wind hitting his hair and stuff like that.If the only answer is the answer, it's too perfect.Actually, I think there's a better name for it,it's, how else?The point here being,this is a very subtle and difficult conceptto grasp, actually, on the face of it,and magicians struggle and argue over it,and Matt has stated it absolutely correctly,but then the next question is,Well what do you do about it?And what you're trying to do is you're trying toaddress the fact that the audience is goingto think about the method.There are people in magic who would like to thinkthe audience is not going to think about the method.Henning had a little bit of thatactually in a way, didn't he?Well deep in his heart, Doug believed in magic.I mean, he's the only magician in his fieldbelieved he could pay a yogi to teach him how to float.But I digress.But the point is,so what you try and do is,you try and anticipate the mind of the audience.And magic is entirely dependent upon that.If you practice magic in a mirror,magic doesn't exist.And if magic doesn't exist, it's like a zen koan.It doesn't exist until someone actually sees it.Which is not true of a paintingor any sort of static art.The art exists regardless of the audience.So, you're trying to anticipate the mind of the audience.And you're trying to lead themso that they will think about the method,but incorrectly and eventually get to a pointwhere they realize that the methodthat they are thinking about is incorrectand yet not be able to find themselvesto the correct method.So you're actually doing much more thanmerely fooling the eye on the moment.You're really, we like to say in magicthat you don't fool the eye, you fool the mind.And that's absolutely true.The magic doesn't happen here.It only happens in your head.And so the too perfect theory is about thinkingabout how you're thinkingand about how you're going to think.And actually providing a set of bread crumbsthat are going to lead you down the pathwhere we will then turn the hose on you.[Matt] Do the tightrope.Do the razor's edge thing.Well, this has to do with the social contract, actually.To the tightrope, which relates back to the Houdini thing.Because I'm an activist skepticand a colleague of James Randi.The Amazing Randi.Spent a lot of my life talking to academicsand scientists in college classes and so forthabout critical thinking and about phony psychics,that's a redundancy,pseudo scientific claims and so on.And people often ask, Why is a magician,someone who spends his lifefooling people for a living,worried about people being fooled?But when I say the word magic,I'm really stating a social contract.I'm saying I'm going to fool you.So I am, what I like to call myself,an honest liar.Right?You can get to my website by honestliar.com,because, once I use that word,I'm telling you exactly what's going to happen.And now you know that you're safe.So it's kind of like,if you're up on a roller coaster,you're being taken on a roller coaster ride,you want to feel that near-death experience.You want to feel that danger,but you also know that you're going to be taken home safely.You're gonna return to a placenot severely altered from whence you began.Whereas I think the phony psychicdoes something morally to youwhere he kind of takes you up,gives you all that excitement,then pushes you off.So that you have no way to find yourself home.But I just realized,that's not what you were talking about.You were talking about, sorry, right.[Matt] I liked it.[John] We found it interesting.Help, I've fallen into a metaphor and I can't get up.[Charles] Don't feel bad.I'm sorry, what you were actually referring to,is the concept of Whit Hayden,the wonderful magician who's writtensome great theory in recent years.And, magicians argue aboutwhat the definition of magic is.We're stuck with this horrible word.It means so many different things.It might mean a guy twisting balloon animalsat at birthday party,it might mean some occult ceremony,it might mean someone stuffing women into boxes,or it might mean somebody doing some ofwhat you've seen here this evening.But I think the experience of magic comes down to this.That you want to get someone perched in a spotwhere they're sort of standingon the edge of a sword intellectuallywhere on one side is an explanation that says,It can't be magic because magic doesn't exist.On the other side it says, It must be magicbecause all the evidence points to thatand there's no other explanation.It must be magic,it can't be magic.Now if you can settle comfortablyon either one of those arguments,then magic has failed.The magician has failed you.As far as I'm concerned.And the too perfect theorycan force you, if you violate it,can force you to find the solution.It must be a thread.It must be a helicopter.What else?Carl Valentine, what else?But if you end up in this placewhere you just can't comfortably get,it must be magic, it can't be magic,it must be magic, it can't be magic,and you're perched there on the horns of a dilemmathat you cannot resolve,it creates what is calleda burr under the saddle of the mind.And that's a fabulous place,and that's exactly where we want to put you and leave you.That's wonderful.Thank you Jamy.That's great.Having gone down that deep and philosophical route,can I as about something much more mundane?And that is about Las Vegas.And Las Vegas is a place where magic lives.When I was spending my timethinking about magicians and talking to musicians,everybody said to me, You can't understandmodern magic, American magic, if you don'tgo to Las Vegas and spend a week in Vegas.John, you're a habitue.A denizen.And have been there for a long time.I worked it when there were four hotels on the strip.Of course, I was a musician in those days,but switching from music to magicwas only switching a u to an a and an s to a c.You know, musician, magician.We kind of now, it's been called theMecca or capital of magic right now.Formerly a title held by a little placein Colon, Michigan called Abbot's Magic Company.They called it the magic center of the world.[Charlie] I still think of it that way.I know you do.[laughter]But remember, the name of the city's Colon.[laughter]Anyway, it really is, at this point.We have five running magic shows.Soon to be a sixth one if it lasts.We have Lance Burton, we have Penn & Teller,David Copperfield, of course,a real off the wall, avant garde comedy magiciannamed The Amazing Johnathan who's holding court there.And Mac King, of course, another--You said to me, John, when we were having dinner once,you said you liked it better when the mafia ran it.Well yeah, the difference between the corporate worldand the mob was that it was a fun city in those days.No, it really was if you think about it.They comped everything.They wanted to get you to the tables.In those days, the gambling revenue was 79% of the take.It's less than a third today.They make more on shows, lounges and food and drink.It's amazing.But in those days, the mob wanted to get youto the gambling tables,but to entice you there,they brought the greatest entertainers,they put on the most wonderful shows,and they tried to give you everythingas free as possible.[Jamy] And everybody dressed better.Oh, they did dress better, yes.We're the last remnants here.But, now, I mean, just an example,Elton John's playing there.You can probably see him here for a $90 ticket,it's $350 for ticket, can you imagine?Celine Dion, $350, Bette Midler.This is outrageous prices.A cheap price in Vegas, these days, is $150 for a ticket.But John, as to magic,we really owe that to Siegfried and Roy, right?I mean, a lot of people don't realize that.Sigefried and Roy, yeah they did.They opened a lot of doors.Prior to Siegfried and Roy,every magic act was relegatedto being the opening act in the show.A little colorful variety act.Siegfried and Roy broke that mold.They started out 1962 they were the opening actat the Follies Bergere.But when they came back,they moved to the middle spot,and eventually at the Stardust in the leader show,and then came back as the headline act.And it was because of them that when I went into VegasI was a headliner, not an opening act.And then they opened the door for magic shows.Prior to that there were no magiciansheadlining an entire showroom.They did the first full magic show,and then they did the very first magic spectacular.A $29 million spectacular on stage.$29 million worth of costumes, magic and sets on stage.And that opened the door, of course,for Cirque du Soleil and the extravaganzasthat are there now.But it was those two magicians that made the difference.But your friends and heroes, I know of everyone here now,Penn & Teller now, work every night in Las Vegas.And were you surprised, as in my stupidity I was,that they would have such a good response in Las Vegas?Doing something that seemed very New York or very--No, I think they're one of thesmartest magic shows in town.I worked for Penn & Teller, Lance Burton,I've worked for Siegfried and Roy,as Charlie has, and I will tell you,working for Penn & Teller is the most exciting.Developing magic with Penn & Teller.Because it's really very extraordinaryand very miraculous magic and they do a great job.Everyone always remembers them as the bad boys of magic,but when you really go see their show,you're really entranced.It's really marvelous.Obviously you can't talk about thetechnical details of being a magic consultantor a magic designer,but in a general sense,what is it that you're doingwhen you're designing magic for Lance Burtonor Doug Henning or Penn & Teller?Well, in my case, they come to me with a conceptor an idea and I literally bring it to fruition.I make it happen.So they say, I want to suddenly materialize,Lance Burton says, I want to materialize out of nowhereout of an outline.That's it and it's up to me to find a wayto make him do that, yes.[Adam] And you draw on all of your accumulated knowledgeof how such things can be done.That's correct.As much expertise as I can draw from, and imagination.I've been doing this, as I said, since I'm eight years old,and I've acquired a lot of toolsand it's great fun doing it.For my own performances and my own act,I would never do some of the thingsthat Penn & Teller do or Chris Angel or Lance Burton,but I can certainly think in their areaand make those things occurand that's one of the joys of being able to do it.That's a big part of the job.Much like being the director,you have to be able to,you take your knowledge,your technical knowledge about magic and illusionand whatever, but you're also trying tofilter it through what you know aboutthat particular artist's taste and point of view,and capabilities, actually.Because you work with different magicians,and some have the capacity for certain things,and some have capacities for other things.And you're trying to pull all that together.There's no point in trying topush something on someone that you're working forthat's just not right either their point of viewor their abilities.So you're trying to go throughall those filters as well.You're not just using raw technical knowledgeand just providing solutions.You're really designing solutions to suitthat particular artist.Matt, I know you just worked with Teller,as I said said at the beginning.A fascinating project to bring magic to Shakespeare,Working with non-magicians on stage.Can you tell us a little bit aboutwhat the idea was there and how you worked it out?Well, Teller had this ideaFrom the time he was a little boy,his favorite play was Macbeth.And I loved the play too when I got into Shakespearein high school and I had a similar idea reading it,going, you know, it'd be great to see a productionthat, the hallucinations, the witches,the violence, all of it was visual.The play is full of people hallucinating things.You're seeing daggers floating in the air,you're seeing a ghost of your best friendyou've just murdered appearing at a party,no one else can see him.You're seeing blood appear on your hands.And the thought was,and the night I met Telleris Halloween night, 2005,and we just kind of brought this up.We ended up hitting it off.Which, meeting your childhood hero,and him wanting to sit and talk to you,is really thrilling.I hope you all get to have that.We just talked about that idea,and then he found a theater and a director and a budgetthat wanted to do it, and go for it.and really put the time and energy,and we had almost a year and a halfto really think about how we're gonna make Lady Macbethsee blood and you see it too,and she wipes it away,and then it comes back.And it's real liquid dripping blood.And then she wipes that away and it comes back.And she's wearing a nightgown, no sleeves.How do you make a dagger appear.Is this a dagger which I see before me?The handle toward my hand.And seeing that dagger,all of that, we had so much time and energyand that doesn't usually happen.Usually you have about a month.Or less, to figure these things out.And in teaching actors to do, non-magicians,but Teller insisted, and he was right,the actors actually, they are already thinkingabout performance, walking out on stageand concealing something.They have to face that a certain way.It's not natural.But it's trying to make it look as natural as possible.So they're already thinking about that.And they learned some complicated...Lady Macbeth is basically standing up and doinga one person sleight of hand routine with no sleevesand a tight dress, and liquid is appearing.And liquid's really hard to manipulate.It wants to go where it wants to go.And at one point, bare handed, liquid just,red blood just pours over her handsand she's losing her mind.You're seeing what she's seeing.That was thrilling.That was a lot of fun.And we're hopefully doing it again soon.[Adam] Are you, is it going to be--There's talk of doing itin a few different places.One being Utah, Shakespeare Festival,and another maybe in California.Let me say, as a spectator of it,it was not only terrific magic,but much more importantly,it was first-class Shakespeare.And what it showed us was how much magic,in that sense, there is in Shakespeare.How much Shakespeare wants effects and shockand mystery in the--Sure.I hate when I go see Shakespeare, or any classical piece,and someone says,You know what, we're gonna do it in the old west.Or under water.A space odyssey.It's just slapping crap onto a show.Or, We're gonna have five Hamlets.Five Hamlets, and they all are gonna...Different parts of his personality.That just drives me nuts.And it can be good, it often isn't.And we tried for this to be somethingwhere the magic didn'tget in the way of the story and the drama.That's one thing I found that, with magic,often you're not expressing intense emotionas you're pulling off these tiny intricate moves.Lady Macbeth is losing her mind.She's screaming.And she's having to delicately steal things from her person.And delicate, you know, do things that take a lot of timeand concentration sometimes.And that doesn't happen in magic very often.You don't often get stabbed through the heartand have to be convinced and feel something for the person.The piece that set this off,people asked me, is it a pleasure being with magicians?I said, I love to see their work,but I adore their conversation.I hope you've had some sense ofthe beauty of magician's conversationand their work.Thank you Matt, thank you Charles,Thank you Jamy, Thank you John.Thank you all.Thanks for being here.[applause]</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="GridItem-buujkM fLDozG grid--item grid-layout__aside"><div data-testid="CneVideoWatchPageRightRail" class="CneVideoWatchPageRightRail-euEnLY cCEBKy"><div class="BaseWrap-sc-gjQpdd BaseText-ewhhUZ CneVideoWatchPageRightRailHeading-kpouzA iUEiRd krbMMY eQghcW right-rail__heading">Up Next</div><ul data-testid="PlayListWrapper" class="PlayListWrapper-kWxhzI eavFmy playlist"><li class="PlaylistItemActiveLi-cdYlyz cNpbvH"><a data-testid="PlaylistItemWrapper" href="/video/watch/peter-schjeldahl-on-fragonard" class="PlaylistItemWrapper-EweSJ kDFBWt"><div 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