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Post your work and collaborate in this forum.<br /></div> <p> <strong>Moderator:</strong> <a style="color:#008000;" href="./../memberlist.php?mode=group&g=6643&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f">Forum Moderators</a> </p> <div class="action-bar bar-top"> <a href="./../posting.php?mode=reply&t=58857&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f" class="button" title="Post a reply"> <span>Post Reply</span> <i class="icon fa-reply fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i> </a> <div class="search-box" role="search"> <form method="get" id="topic-search" action="./../search.php?sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f"> <fieldset> <input class="inputbox search tiny" type="search" name="keywords" id="search_keywords" size="20" placeholder="Search this topic…" /> <button class="button button-search" type="submit" title="Search"> <i class="icon fa-search fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Search</span> </button> <a href="./../search.php?sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f" class="button 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href="./../viewtopic.php?t=58857&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f&start=30" role="button">3</a></li> <li class="active"><span>4</span></li> </ul> </div> </div> <form method="post" action="./../viewtopic.php?t=58857&start=45&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f" data-ajax="vote_poll" data-refresh="true" class="topic_poll"> <div class="panel"> <div class="inner"> <div class="content"> <h2 class="poll-title">Adding the best and most important balance change or not (Ladder variation of Footpad)</h2> <p class="author"></p> <fieldset class="polls"> <dl class="" data-alt-text="You voted for this option" data-poll-option-id="1"> <dt>everywhere (replacement): 5x2 melee blade (change it's melee attack to blade, but + 1 dmg), new sprits would be needed</dt> <dd class="resultbar"><div class="pollbar2" style="width:44%;">8</div></dd> <dd class="poll_option_percent">29%</dd> </dl> <dl class="" data-alt-text="You voted for this option" data-poll-option-id="2"> <dt>only core eras (halve replacement): 5x2 melee blade (change it's melee attack to blade, but + 1 dmg), new sprits would be needed</dt> <dd class="resultbar"><div class="pollbar1" style="width:11%;">2</div></dd> <dd class="poll_option_percent">7%</dd> </dl> <dl class=" most-votes" data-alt-text="You voted for this option" data-poll-option-id="3"> <dt>no touching: 4x2 melee impact (keeping it as it was always in core eras and campaign)</dt> <dd class="resultbar"><div class="pollbar4" style="width:100%;">18</div></dd> <dd class="poll_option_percent">64%</dd> </dl> <dl class="poll_total_votes"> <dt> </dt> <dd class="resultbar">Total votes: <span class="poll_total_vote_cnt">28</span></dd> </dl> </fieldset> <div class="vote-submitted hidden">Your vote has been cast.</div> </div> </div> </div> </form> <hr /> <div id="p695029" class="post has-profile bg2"> <div class="inner"> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile695029"> <dt class="no-profile-rank no-avatar"> <div class="avatar-container"> </div> <a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=528&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f" class="username">shevegen</a> </dt> <dd class="profile-posts"><strong>Posts:</strong> <a href="./../search.php?author_id=528&sr=posts&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f">509</a></dd> <dd class="profile-joined"><strong>Joined:</strong> June 3rd, 2004, 4:35 pm</dd> </dl> <div class="postbody"> <div id="post_content695029"> <h3 class="first"> <a href="./../viewtopic.php?p=695029&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f#p695029">Re: 1.20 balance change for Core Eras and Units made by the Balance Team</a> </h3> <ul class="post-buttons"> <li> <a href="./../posting.php?mode=quote&p=695029&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f" title="Reply with quote" class="button button-icon-only"> <i class="icon fa-quote-left fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Quote</span> </a> </li> </ul> <p class="author"> <a class="unread" href="./../viewtopic.php?p=695029&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f#p695029" title="Post"> <i class="icon fa-file fa-fw icon-lightgray icon-md" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Post</span> </a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <strong><a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=528&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f" class="username">shevegen</a></strong> » </span><time datetime="2024-11-27T21:51:31+00:00">November 27th, 2024, 9:51 pm</time> </p> <div class="content">The voting results so far is quite interesting (to me); not giving away too many spoilers, but it seems people are rather conservative in regards to the question here, or rather, the three possible answers (I was too, in my voting, by the way). Perhaps it has to do with those specific three options asked, because from those three, the conservative answer seemed best to me. But I am not at all against balance-related changes here. One problem I had was to understand the implications of the changes. Perhaps explaining the options may be helpful; and, as another suggestion, perhaps to make any changes small-ish (at the least I think I would prefer smaller changes or upgrades) and then focusing just on a 1:1 parity, e. g. present the conservative option, and the changed/upgraded one. I had a very hard time choosing between the two different variants, because I really was not sure which one would be better suited. That was also one partial reason why I opted for the conservative answer (and was a bit surprised to see most others also were).<br> <br> Footpad can be quite useful in some scenarios; I remember one map specifically where you were kind of required to use the footpad because you could "soak" up damage indirectly, by not getting hit. So that's kind of nice to have. Perhaps a fourth option, for increasing that dodge-factor ... but I don't want to make this more complicated, even more so after I suggested to have only one alternative to the "keep it as it is" option. <img class="smilies" src="./../images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":D" title="Very Happy"></div> </div> </div> <div class="back2top"> <a href="#top" class="top" title="Top"> <i class="icon fa-chevron-circle-up fa-fw icon-gray" aria-hidden="true"></i> <span class="sr-only">Top</span> </a> </div> </div> </div> <div id="p695067" class="post has-profile bg1"> <div class="inner"> <dl class="postprofile" id="profile695067"> <dt class="no-profile-rank no-avatar"> <div class="avatar-container"> </div> <a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=141652&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f" class="username">sine_nomine</a> </dt> <dd class="profile-posts"><strong>Posts:</strong> <a href="./../search.php?author_id=141652&sr=posts&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f">70</a></dd> <dd class="profile-joined"><strong>Joined:</strong> April 30th, 2016, 11:34 pm</dd> </dl> <div class="postbody"> <div id="post_content695067"> <h3 > <a href="./../viewtopic.php?p=695067&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f#p695067">Re: 1.20 balance change for Core Eras and Units made by the Balance Team</a> </h3> <ul class="post-buttons"> <li> <a href="./../posting.php?mode=quote&p=695067&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f" title="Reply with quote" class="button button-icon-only"> <i class="icon fa-quote-left fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Quote</span> </a> </li> </ul> <p class="author"> <a class="unread" href="./../viewtopic.php?p=695067&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f#p695067" title="Post"> <i class="icon fa-file fa-fw icon-lightgray icon-md" aria-hidden="true"></i><span class="sr-only">Post</span> </a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <strong><a href="./../memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=141652&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f" class="username">sine_nomine</a></strong> » </span><time datetime="2024-11-29T02:08:55+00:00">Today, 2:08 am</time> </p> <div class="content">Some level 3 units units don't match the most recent stats (e.g. elvish outrider, elvish marshal, elvish avenger, human huntsman, human ranger)<br> but I assume that's unintentional so I will post some comments on the lvl3 stat changes between 1.16 and <a href="https://units.wesnoth.org/trunk/mainline/en_US/mainline.html" class="postlink">https://units.wesnoth.org/trunk/mainlin ... nline.html</a><br> (not going to bother looking at gold costs)<br> <br> >Elvish outrider: ranged 8x3->9x3<br> Seems good, a minor change to an underpowered unit shouldn't cause problems. I like how damage of each bow shot no longer decreases when going from lvl2 to lvl3.<br> <br> >Elvish marshal: mp 5->6, hp 62->60<br> I thought the elvish marshal & champion were fine in 1.16 (and the prior 15 years). Of the two, marshal is an essential unit in singleplayer campaigns so I'm surprised to see him get a major buff. In most campaigns I try to get a marshal as soon as possible because leadership has a massive impact on my army. As I go through the campaign I continually recruit new disposable lvl1s so my marshals never fall out of use. Compared to the alternate promotion, the lvl2 elvish captain's leadership essentially costs 4hp, 4 melee, and 3 ranged. When promoting to lvl3 the next level of leadership only costs an additional 4hp and 1 melee. So I'm puzzled as to why the marshal was made even better.<br> <br> Another thing to consider is that you can recruit a quick elvish fighter and promote to marshal, just like you can recruit a quick drake burner. But human sergeant and orcish leader are usually not available to recruit so you almost never see a quick sergeant or orcish leader. With the buff to the elvish marshal, many campaigns will now have seven movement leadership units. Plus better melee, ranged, and forest movement/evasion than human general.<br> <br> I would prefer to see the elvish marshal return to his old stats, but if he must get increased movement then he ought to be given a nerf in another area. At the very least a decrease in attack. Even if his melee attack fell to 9x4, a strong 1.20 elvish marshal would be outright superior to a quick 1.16 elvish marshal. And a quick 1.20 elvish marshal is of course even better.<br> <br> >Elvish champion: hp 70->72, melee 9x5->8x5+10% accuracy<br> Although the marshal is more valuable, there's nothing wrong with the 1.16 version of the champion. He exists as a stronger alternative to the marshal and has the highest hp of all elves. If you gradually train up champions during a campaign you can deploy them all in a scenario where upkeep doesn't matter. And there are some players who prefer to use mostly level 3 units when they play singleplayer campaigns, those players will naturally prefer the champion. <br> <br> The 1.18 champion changes his damage to 8x5 and has a new weapon special: +10% accuracy. It's very unusual but is comparable to switching his damage to 8x6 in terms of damage breakpoints and increased reliability. One difference is that the max damage is lower so my units don't need as much hp to guarantee survival when attacked by an enemy elvish champion. Another major difference is that this weapon special has a bigger effect when attacking high evasion targets compared to low evasion targets. While you get a boost whether it's from 30%->40% or 60%->70%, the former increases average damage by twice as much as the latter. It's like how marksman and magical provide more of a boost when attacking evasive targets, but less significant. This puts the champion in a weird spot where it gains the most from attacking evasive targets but feels bad because your attacks are still inaccurate after the boost. <br> <br> Personally I don't like the idea of having another similar weapon special on a core unit. Also I wonder why this weapon special was given to the elvish champion of all units. Other factions have multiple unit lines dedicated to melee attacks, but the elvish champion isn't competing with anyone for his role. If for some reason there must be an elf with a melee weapon special it would be better to give the elvish hero a branching promotion and create a new unit with marksman on his melee attack (maybe a unit similar to a deathblade). But the elves already have many units that are good at attacking evasive targets and the elvish race's specialty is related to their ranged attacks so I don't think they need a melee weapon special.<br> <br> Overall I prefer the 1.16 elvish champion because I dislike unnecessary complexity.<br> Not sure about the +2hp, it sounds reasonable I just don't want to think about 2hp on a lvl3.<br> <br> >Elvish enchantress<br> >Elvish sylph<br> I'll wait for arcane resistance to be determined before commenting on these<br> <br> >Elvish shyde: hp 46->51, melee 6x2->7x2, ranged slow 6x3->7x3, ranged magic 8x3->10x3<br> I never had an issue with the 1.16 version. Healers are very important and the shyde is a highly mobile healer with the ability to slow enemies or to use magic attacks for reliable attacks. It's understandable for her damage to be below average.<br> <br> The 1.18 version of the shyde was crazy (14x3), so the current version looks more reasonable. But it's still a considerable buff from 1.16. Ultimately it's a question of whether you want the shyde to be dedicated to support or to have similar damage to a lvl2 elvish marksman.<br> Currently the druid has 5 less HP than the sorceress but the shyde has 1 more than the enchantress. I think the lvl2 promotion option with less HP should have lower HP at level 3.<br> <br> >Paladin: hp 65->77, arcane 8x5->9x5, charge 15x2->16x2<br> This attack boost plus 1.18 arcane resistance makes the paladin effective against everything. The HP boost gives the paladin high durability and closes the gap with the grand knight (especially if the grand knight is quick). The paladin's arcane attack even lets him bypass the blade resistance of enemies like heavy infantry. And of course he still has high movement, heals+4, and extra damage against races weak to arcane. He seems a bit too good so I expect something will be changed after arcane resistance is fixed.<br> <br> >Grand knight: hp 78->84, charge 17x2->19x2<br> Grand knights were good in 1.16 and they are now even better, but now that paladins are buffed the grand knight's main niche has become charge damage.<br> By the way, lancers are easily the strongest lvl2 units in the game and are viable in campaigns even without a lvl3 promotion so there's no need for a charge-focused grand knight.<br> First fix arcane damage, then fix paladin, then adjust grand knight if needed.<br> <br> >Arch mage: exp 220->150<br> >Grand mage: fire 16x4->17x4<br> good<br> <br> >Mage of light: not changed<br> I wouldn't mind seeing mages of light lose a point of damage. Healing and illuminate are extremely useful support abilities and they boost their own damage with illuminate.<br> <br> >General: hp 50->55<br> >Grand marshal: hp 60->68<br> Seems fine<br> <br> >Huntsman: hp 57->53, ranged marksman 9x4->10x4, swamp lurk<br> Damage is probably ok<br> I don't know what sort of impact swamp lurk will have. Will need to test.<br> <br> >Ranger: hp 60->64, ranged 7x4->8x4, improved evasion on some terrain but castle->50%<br> The evasion buffs make sense<br> I understand the decrease in castle evasion fits the lore description but I don't like it because it's a decrease from poacher and trapper<br> The ranged damage increase is reasonable because the huntsman's also increased, and the HP changes make them more distinct. I think this makes ranger the obvious promotion choice in most instances. There would still be niche uses for huntsman, so I don't know if this is an issue<br> <br> >Trapper<br> it's odd how poacher deals 3x2 melee damage and that jumps to 5x4 at lvl2<br> <br> >Fugitive: hp 62->68<br> At first glance HP seems high<br> If the lvl2 is reverted to 1.16 stats there will be a 26 hp difference between lvl2 & lvl3<br> <br> >Saurian flanker: hp 47->54<br> I see the the new lvl2 saurian spearthrower has more hp than the lvl2 ambusher while the lvl3 javelineer has less hp than the (buffed) flanker<br> <br> >Necromancer<br> In the current version, necromancers have 76hp and get +10 impact resistance at lvl3. While a tanky mage could be a reasonable unit, it doesn't fit the lore of a necromancer at all. I'd much rather see necromancers be focused on plague.<br> The 1.18 necromancer also got a cold damage buff which is good, now it does more damage than a lich<br> And it got an arcane buff so it no longer deals ~70% of its cold damage. This might be adjusted when arcane resistance is fixed, so I'm not going to try to understand why this happened<br> <br> >Ghast<br> Ghast and necrophage got damage buffs in 1.18, so if necrophage is reverted to 1.16 damage then ghast damage should fall. Though 11x3 is probably ok.<br> If there needs to be a lvl3 undead unit with increased impact resistance I think ghast makes more sense than necromancer. It wouldn't seem out of place visually given the unit's bloated appearance. However they might be annoying to fight against if they resist everything. A more radical idea would be to give all ghouls impact resistance in exchange for losing pierce resistance, but it's probably unreasonable to make such a big change to a lvl1 unit.<br> <br> >arcane resistance<br> I'm in favor of arcane being a specialized damage type that does high damage to skeletons but low damage to humans</div> </div> </div> <div class="back2top"> <a href="#top" class="top" title="Top"> <i class="icon fa-chevron-circle-up fa-fw icon-gray" aria-hidden="true"></i> <span class="sr-only">Top</span> </a> </div> </div> </div> <div class="action-bar bar-bottom"> <a href="./../posting.php?mode=reply&t=58857&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f" class="button" title="Post a reply"> <span>Post Reply</span> <i class="icon fa-reply fa-fw" aria-hidden="true"></i> </a> <form method="post" action="./../viewtopic.php?t=58857&start=45&sid=df08149ad7a0cc477de6cd4acee86e7f"> <div class="dropdown-container dropdown-container-left dropdown-button-control sort-tools"> <span 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