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[o]" accesskey="o"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-logIn mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-logIn"></span> <span>Log in</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-user-menu-anon-editor" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-user-menu-anon-editor" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Pages for logged out editors <a href="/wiki/Help:Introduction" aria-label="Learn more about editing"><span>learn more</span></a> </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="pt-anoncontribs" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:MyContributions" title="A list of edits made from this IP address [y]" accesskey="y"><span>Contributions</span></a></li><li id="pt-anontalk" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:MyTalk" title="Discussion about edits from this IP address [n]" accesskey="n"><span>Talk</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </header> </div> <div class="mw-page-container"> <div class="mw-page-container-inner"> <div class="vector-sitenotice-container"> <div id="siteNotice"></div> </div> <div class="vector-column-start"> <div class="vector-main-menu-container"> <div id="mw-navigation"> <nav id="mw-panel" class="vector-main-menu-landmark" aria-label="Site"> <div id="vector-main-menu-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> </div> </nav> </div> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading mw-first-heading"><span class="mw-page-title-namespace">Wikipedia</span><span class="mw-page-title-separator">:</span><span class="mw-page-title-main">Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/In focus</span></h1> <div id="p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown mw-portlet mw-portlet-lang" > <input type="checkbox" id="p-lang-btn-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox mw-interlanguage-selector" aria-label="This article exist only in this language. Add the article for other languages" > <label id="p-lang-btn-label" for="p-lang-btn-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--action-progressive mw-portlet-lang-heading-0" aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-language-progressive mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-language-progressive"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Add languages</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> <div class="after-portlet after-portlet-lang"><span class="uls-after-portlet-link"></span><span class="wb-langlinks-add wb-langlinks-link"><a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:NewItem?site=enwiki&page=Wikipedia%3AWikipedia+Signpost%2F2020-04-26%2FIn+focus" title="Add interlanguage links" class="wbc-editpage">Add links</a></span></div> </div> </div> </div> </header> <div class="vector-page-toolbar"> <div class="vector-page-toolbar-container"> <div id="left-navigation"> <nav aria-label="Namespaces"> <div id="p-associated-pages" class="vector-menu vector-menu-tabs mw-portlet mw-portlet-associated-pages" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="ca-nstab-project" class="selected vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus" title="View the project page [c]" accesskey="c"><span>Project page</span></a></li><li id="ca-talk" class="vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus" rel="discussion" title="Discuss improvements to the content page [t]" accesskey="t"><span>Talk</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="vector-variants-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown emptyPortlet" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-variants-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-variants-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Change language variant" > <label id="vector-variants-dropdown-label" for="vector-variants-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet" aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">English</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="p-variants" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-variants emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> <div id="right-navigation" class="vector-collapsible"> <nav aria-label="Views"> <div id="p-views" class="vector-menu vector-menu-tabs mw-portlet mw-portlet-views" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="ca-view" class="selected vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus"><span>Read</span></a></li><li id="ca-viewsource" class="vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus&action=edit" title="This page is protected.
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</div> </div> <div id="bodyContent" class="vector-body" aria-labelledby="firstHeading" data-mw-ve-target-container> <div class="vector-body-before-content"> <div class="mw-indicators"> </div> <div id="siteSub" class="noprint">From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</div> </div> <div id="contentSub"><div id="mw-content-subtitle"><div class="subpages">< <bdi dir="ltr"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost">Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost</a></bdi> | <bdi dir="ltr"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26">2020-04-26</a></bdi></div></div></div> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><div style="display:none;" itemprop="description" class="signpost-rss-description">Multilingual Wikipedia: How to better integrate articles across language editions.</div><style 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href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost"><img alt="The Signpost" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Signpost2.svg/263px-Signpost2.svg.png" decoding="async" width="263" height="48" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Signpost2.svg/395px-Signpost2.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Signpost2.svg/526px-Signpost2.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="263" data-file-height="48"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></div><div class="signpost-header-subheadings"><div class="signpost-header-volume"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Archives/2020-04-26" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Archives/2020-04-26">← Back to Contents</a></div><div class="signpost-header-issue"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost">View Latest Issue</a></div><span class="signpost-header-date"><time class="dt-published" datetime="2020-04-26"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Archives/2020-04-26" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Archives/2020-04-26"><span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2020-04-26">26 April 2020</span></a></time><br/></span></div><br/><div class="signpost-header-subsubheadings"></div></div> <div style="display:none;"><div class="signpost-piccyfilename"></div><div class="signpost-piccy-credits"></div><div class="signpost-piccy-license"></div><div class="signpost-piccy-xoffset"></div><div class="signpost-piccy-yoffset"></div><div class="signpost-piccy-scaling"></div></div><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1236342416">.mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-article-header-2{clear:both;padding:0 2vw;max-width:80em;margin:2em auto 0}.mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-article-header-2 .signpost-segment{text-shadow:0 -1px 0 #EEE;color:var(--color-placeholder,#72777d);font-family:Georgia,Palatino,"Palatino Linotype",Times,"Times New Roman",serif;font-weight:bold;font-size:110%}.mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-article-header-2 .signpost-article-title{border-bottom:1px solid #AAA;font-family:Georgia,Palatino,"Palatino Linotype",Times,"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:190%;line-height:130%;margin:0;padding-top:.2em;padding-bottom:.7em;text-align:left}.mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-article-header-2 .signpost-byline{font-family:Georgia,Palatino,"Palatino Linotype",Times,"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:105%;margin-bottom:1.5em;padding-top:5px;text-align:left}.mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-article-header-2 .signpostshare{font-size:95%;float:right;width:18em;margin:0 0 0 2em}.mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-article-header-2-contribute{line-height:1.6em;font-weight:bold;float:left;z-index:25}.mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-article-header-2-share{line-height:1.6em;font-weight:bold;color:var(--color-subtle,#54595d);padding-right:0.5em}.mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-article-header-2-share-links{background:var(--background-color-base,#fff);border:1px solid;border-color:#bbb #aaa #999;box-shadow:0 1px 3px rgba(0,0,0,0.2);float:right;font-size:80%;margin:.5em 0 1em;padding:2px 5px;position:static;text-transform:uppercase;width:12em;z-index:20}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-article-header-2 .signpost-segment{text-shadow:0 -1px 0 #333}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-article-header-2 .signpost-segment{text-shadow:0 -1px 0 #333}}</style><div class="wp-signpost-article-header-2 plainlinks"><div class="signpost-segment">In focus</div><h2 id="Multilingual_Wikipedia" id="signpost-article-title" class="signpost-article-title" data-signpost-article-title="Multilingual Wikipedia" data-mw-thread-id="h-signpost-article-title"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-signpost-article-title"></span>Multilingual Wikipedia<span 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href="https://www.reddit.com/submit?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3AWikipedia_Signpost%2F2020-04-26%2FIn_focus&title=Multilingual+Wikipedia">Reddit</a></li></ul> </div></div></div><span id="signpost-article-authors" class="signpost-author">By <a href="/wiki/User:Denny" title="User:Denny">Denny Vrandečić</a></span></div></div><div class="hidden-piccyembed" style="display:none;"></div><div class="signpost-article" style="padding: 0 2vw; max-width:80em; margin: 0 auto;"> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248129851">.mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-block-2{line-height:1.6em}.mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-block-2-full{font-size:1em;font-family:sans-serif,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial}.mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-block-2-narrow{max-width:46em}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .wp-signpost-block-2{padding-left:2vw}}</style><div class="wp-signpost-block-2 wp-signpost-block-2-narrow"> <dl><dd><i>Denny Vrandečić was the Wikidata director until September 2013 and was a member of the Wikimedia Foundation board of trustees from July 2015 to April 2016. He earned a PhD at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. He now works at Google. <small>-<a href="/wiki/User:Smallbones" title="User:Smallbones">S</a></small></i></dd></dl> <p>Wikipedia’s mission is to allow everyone to share in the sum of all knowledge. Wikipedia is in its twentieth year, and it has been a success in many ways. And yet, it still has large knowledge gaps, particularly in language editions with smaller active communities. But not only there – did you know that only a third of all topics that have Wikipedia articles have an article on the English Wikipedia? Did you know that only about half of articles in the German Wikipedia have a counterpart on the English Wikipedia? There are huge amounts of knowledge out there that are not accessible to readers who can read only one or two languages. </p><p>And even if there is an article, content is often very unevenly distributed, and where one Wikipedia has long articles with several sections, another Wikipedia might just have a stub. And sometimes, articles contain very outdated knowledge. When <a href="/wiki/London_Breed" title="London Breed">London Breed</a> became mayor of <a href="/wiki/San_Francisco" title="San Francisco">San Francisco</a>, nine months later only twenty-four language editions had listed her as such. Sixty-two editions listed out-of-date mayors – and not only <a href="/wiki/Ed_Lee_(politician)" class="mw-redirect" title="Ed Lee (politician)">Ed Lee</a>, who was mayor from 2011, but also <a href="/wiki/Gavin_Newsom" title="Gavin Newsom">Gavin Newsom</a>, who was mayor from 2004 to 2011, and <a href="/wiki/Willie_Brown_(politician)" title="Willie Brown (politician)">Willie Brown</a>, who was mayor from 1996 to 2004. The Cebuano Wikipedia even lists <a href="/wiki/Dianne_Feinstein" title="Dianne Feinstein">Dianne Feinstein</a>, who was mayor from 1978 to 1988, more than a decade before Wikipedia was even created. </p><p>This is no surprise, as half of the Wikipedia language editions have fewer than ten active contributors. It is challenging to write and maintain a comprehensive and current encyclopedia with ten people in their spare time. It cannot be expected that those ten contributors keep track of all the cities in the world and update their mayors in Wikipedia. In many cases those contributors would prefer to work on other articles. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Wikidata_to_the_rescue?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Wikidata_to_the_rescue?-signpost-article-title"><span id="Wikidata_to_the_rescue.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Wikidata_to_the_rescue?-signpost-article-title"></span>Wikidata to the rescue?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Wikidata_to_the_rescue?-signpost-article-title"></span></h3></div> <p>This is where Wikidata can help. And in fact, it does: of the twenty-four Wikipedia language editions that listed London Breed as mayor, eight got that information from Wikidata, and were up-to-date because of that. But Wikidata cannot really tell the full story. </p><p>Ed Lee, then mayor of San Francisco, died of cardiac arrest in December 2017. London Breed, as the president of the <a href="/wiki/San_Francisco_Board_of_Supervisors" title="San Francisco Board of Supervisors">board of supervisors</a>, became acting mayor, but in order to deny her the advantage of the incumbent, the board voted in January 2018 to replace her with <a href="/wiki/Mark_Farrell_(politician)" title="Mark Farrell (politician)">Mark Farrell</a> as interim mayor until the <a href="/wiki/2018_San_Francisco_mayoral_special_election" title="2018 San Francisco mayoral special election">special elections</a> to finish the term of Ed Lee were held in June. London Breed won the election and became mayor in July until the next <a href="/wiki/2019_San_Francisco_mayoral_election" title="2019 San Francisco mayoral election">regular elections a year later</a> which she also won. </p><p>Now there are many facts in there that can be represented in Wikidata: that there was a <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q48845398#P541" class="extiw" title="wikidata:Q48845398">special election for the position of the mayor of San Francisco</a>, that <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q48845398#P585" class="extiw" title="wikidata:Q48845398">it was held in June</a>, that <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q48845398#P991" class="extiw" title="wikidata:Q48845398">London Breed won that election</a>. That there was <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q19428883#P585" class="extiw" title="wikidata:Q19428883">an election in 2019</a>. That <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6767574#P39" class="extiw" title="wikidata:Q6767574">Mark Farrell held the office from January to July</a>. That <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q241750#P509" class="extiw" title="wikidata:Q241750">Ed Lee died of cardiac arrest</a> in <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q241750#P570" class="extiw" title="wikidata:Q241750">December 2017</a>. </p><p>But all of these facts don’t tell a story. Whereas Wikidata records these facts, they are spread throughout the wiki, and it is very hard to string them together in a way that allows a reader to make sense. Even worse, these facts are just a very small set of the billions of such facts in Wikidata, and for a reader it is hard to figure out which are relevant and which are not. Wikidata is great for answering questions, creating graphs, allowing data exploration, or making infobox-like overviews of a topic, but it is really bad at telling even the rather simple story presented above. </p><p>We have a solution for this problem, and it’s quite marvelous: language. Language is expressive, it can tell stories, it is predestined for knowledge transfer. But also, there are many languages in the world, and most of us only speak a few of them. This is a barrier for the transfer of knowledge. Here I suggest an architecture to lower this barrier, deeply inspired by the way language works. </p><p>Imagine for a moment that we start abstracting the content of a text. Instead of saying "in order to deny her the advantage of the incumbent, the board votes in January 2018 to replace her with Mark Farrell as interim mayor until the special elections", imagine we say something more abstract such as <code>elect(elector: Board of Supervisors, electee: Mark Farrell, position: Mayor of San Francisco, reason: deny(advantage of incumbency, London Breed))</code> – and even more, all of these would be language-independent identifiers, so that thing would actually look more like <code><a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q40231" class="extiw" title="wikidata:Q40231">Q40231</a>(<a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3658756" class="extiw" title="wikidata:Q3658756">Q3658756</a>, <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6767574" class="extiw" title="wikidata:Q6767574">Q6767574</a>, <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1343202" class="extiw" title="wikidata:Q1343202">Q1343202</a>(<a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6015536" class="extiw" title="wikidata:Q6015536">Q6015536</a>, <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6669880" class="extiw" title="wikidata:Q6669880">Q6669880</a>))</code>. On first glance, this looks much like a statement in Wikidata, but merely by putting that in a series of other such abstract statements, and having some connecting tissue between these bare-bones statements, we are inching much closer to what a full-bodied text needs. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="A_new_project:_a_wiki_for_functions" data-mw-thread-id="h-A_new_project:_a_wiki_for_functions-signpost-article-title"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-A_new_project:_a_wiki_for_functions-signpost-article-title"></span>A new project: a wiki for functions<span data-mw-comment-end="h-A_new_project:_a_wiki_for_functions-signpost-article-title"></span></h3></div> <p>But obviously, we wouldn’t show this abstract content to the readers. We still need to translate the abstract content to natural language. So we would need to know that the <code>elect</code> constructor mentioned above takes the three parameters in the example, and that we need to make a template such as <code>{elector} elected {electee} to {position} in order to {reason}</code> (something that looks much easier in this example than it is for most other cases). And since the creation of such translators has to be made for every supported language, we need to have a place to create such translators so that a community can do it. </p><p>For this I propose a new Wikimedia project, preliminarily called <b>Wikilambda</b> (and I am terrible with names, so I do not expect the project to be actually called this). Wikilambda would be a new project to create, maintain, manage, catalog, and evaluate a new form of knowledge assets: functions. <a href="/wiki/Subroutine" class="mw-redirect" title="Subroutine">Functions</a> are algorithms, pieces of code, that translate input into output in a determined and repeatable way. A simple function, such as the square function, could take the number 5 and return 25. The length function could take a string such as "Wikilambda" and return the number 10. Another function could translate a date in the Gregorian calendar to a date in the Julian calendar. And yet another could translate inches to centimeters. Finally, one other function, more complex than any of those examples, could take an abstract content such as <code>Q40231(Q3658756, Q6767574, Q1343202(Q6015536, Q6669880))</code> and a language code, and give back the text "In order to deny London Breed the incumbency advantage, the Board of Supervisors elected Mark Farrell Mayor of San Francisco." Or, for German, <i>"Um London Breed den Vorteil des Amtsträgers zu verweigern, wählte der Stadtrat Mark Farrell zum Bürgermeister von San Francisco."</i> </p><p>Wikilambda will allow contributors to create and maintain functions, their implementations and tests, in a collaborative way. These include the available constructors used to create the abstract content. The functions can be used in a variety of ways: users can call them from the Web, but also from local machines or from an app. By allowing the functions in Wikilambda to be called from wikitext, we also allow to create a global space to maintain <a href="https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates" class="extiw" title="mw:Global templates">global templates</a> and modules, another long-lasting wish by the Wikimedia communities. This will allow more communities to share expertise and make the life of other projects such as the <a href="https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Content_translation" class="extiw" title="mw:Content translation">Content Translation</a> tool easier. </p><p>This will allow the individual language communities to use text generated from the abstract content, and fill some of their knowledge gaps. The hope is that writing the functions that translate abstract content, albeit more complex, is also much less work than writing and maintaining a full-fledged encyclopedia. This will also allow smaller communities to focus on the topics they care about – local places, culture, food – and yet to have an up-to-date coverage of globally relevant topics. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="What_do_you_think?" data-mw-thread-id="h-What_do_you_think?-signpost-article-title"><span id="What_do_you_think.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-What_do_you_think?-signpost-article-title"></span>What do you think?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-What_do_you_think?-signpost-article-title"></span></h3></div> <p>To make it absolutely clear: this proposal does not call for the replacement of the current Wikipedias. It is meant as an offer to the communities to fill in the gaps that currently exist. It would be presumptuous to assume that a text generated by Wikilambda would ever achieve the brilliance and subtlety that let many of our current Wikipedia articles shine. And although there are several advantages for many parts of the English Wikipedia as well (say for global templates or content that is actually richer in a local language), I would be surprised if the English Wikipedia community would start to widely adopt what Wikilambda offers early on. But it seems that it is hard to overestimate the effect this proposal could have on smaller communities, and eventually on our whole movement in order to get a bit closer to our vision of a world in which everyone can share in the sum of all knowledge. </p><p>I invite you to read my recently <a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/2004.04733" class="extiw" title="arxiv:2004.04733">published paper detailing the technical aspects</a> and an <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://wikipedia20.pubpub.org/pub/vyf7ksah">upcoming chapter discussing the social aspects</a> of this proposal. I have discussed this proposal with several researchers in many related research areas, with members of different Wikimedia communities, and with folks at the Wikimedia Foundation, to figure out the next steps. I also invite you to discuss this proposal, in the Comments section below, or on <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Forum#Proposal_towards_a_multilingual_Wikipedia_and_a_new_Wikipedia_project" class="extiw" title="metawiki:Wikimedia Forum">Meta</a>, on <a href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2020-April/094621.html" class="extiw" title="mailarchive:wikimedia-l/2020-April/094621.html">Wikimedia-l</a>, or with me directly. I am very excited to work toward it and I hope to hear your reservations and your ideas. </p><p><b>Update (May 8, 2020)</b>: An official <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikilambda" class="extiw" title="meta:Wikilambda">proposal for Wikilambda</a> is now up on Meta. <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikilambda" class="extiw" title="meta:Talk:Wikilambda">Discussion and support</a> can be expressed there. </p> </div> <div style="clear:both"></div></div> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1236342446">.mw-parser-output .signpost-article-footer{clear:both;display:flex;flex-direction:row;flex-wrap:wrap;margin-top:4em}.mw-parser-output .signpost-succession{border-bottom:1px solid #CCC;box-sizing:border-box;clear:both;display:flex;flex:0 0 100%;flex-wrap:wrap;font-size:116%;font-family:Georgia,Palatino,"Palatino Linotype",Times,"Times New Roman",serif;font-style:italic;justify-content:space-between;padding:0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output 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.signpost-comments-discuss,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .signpost-comments-heading{color:#bbb}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .signpost-inthisissue>div,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .signpost-inthisissue-heading>span,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .signpost-inthisissue-toc,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .signpost-inthisissue-toc>span:first-child,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .signpost-comments-discuss,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .signpost-comments-heading{color:#bbb}}</style><div class="signpost-article-footer"><div class="signpost-succession"><div class="signpost-succession-prev"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-03-29/In_focus" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-03-29/In focus">← <span class="signpost-succession-casing">Previous</span> "In focus"</a></div><div class="signpost-succession-next"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-06-28/In_focus" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-06-28/In focus"><span class="signpost-succession-casing">Next</span> "In focus" →</a></div></div><div class="signpost-inthisissue"><div><div class="signpost-inthisissue-heading"><figure class="mw-halign-right skin-invert-image" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost"><img alt="S" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/WikipediaSignpostIcon.svg/40px-WikipediaSignpostIcon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="48" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/WikipediaSignpostIcon.svg/60px-WikipediaSignpostIcon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/WikipediaSignpostIcon.svg/80px-WikipediaSignpostIcon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="46" data-file-height="55"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure><span>In this issue</span></div><div class="signpost-inthisissue-toc"><span><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Archives/2020-04-26" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Archives/2020-04-26">26 April 2020</a></span> <span class="signpost-comments-disclaimer">(<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/Single/2020-04-26" title="Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/Single/2020-04-26">all comments</a>)<br/></span><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/News_and_notes" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/News and notes">News and notes</a> </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_the_media" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/In the media">In the media</a> </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/Discussion_report" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/Discussion report">Discussion report</a> </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/Featured_content" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/Featured content">Featured content</a> </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/Arbitration_report" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/Arbitration report">Arbitration report</a> </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/Traffic_report" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/Traffic report">Traffic report</a> </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/Gallery" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/Gallery">Gallery</a> </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/Recent_research" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/Recent research">Recent research</a> </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/Essay" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/Essay">Essay</a> </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/By_the_numbers" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/By the numbers">By the numbers</a> </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/Opinion" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/Opinion">Opinion</a> </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/On_the_bright_side" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/On the bright side">On the bright side</a> </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/Interview" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/Interview">Interview</a> </li><li><b style="color: var(--color-base--hover, #404244)">In focus</b> </li><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/WikiProject_report" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/WikiProject report">WikiProject report</a></li></div></div></div><div id="comments" class="signpost-comments"><div class="signpost-comments-heading"><div><span class="signpost-comments-add plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?editintro=Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Templates/Comment-editnotice&title=Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus&action=edit&preload=Wikipedia:Signpost/Templates/Signpost-article-comments-end/preload">+ Add a comment</a></span><h2 id="Discuss_this_story" id="Discuss_this_story" class="signpost-comments-discuss" data-mw-thread-id="h-Discuss_this_story-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Discuss_this_story-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span>Discuss this story<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Discuss_this_story-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span></h2></div></div><div class="signpost-comments-disclaimer"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z-Discuss_this_story"></span>These comments are automatically <a href="/wiki/Help:Transclusion" title="Help:Transclusion">transcluded</a> from this article's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus" title="Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/In focus">talk page</a>. To follow comments, <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus&action=watch">add the page to your watchlist</a>.</span> If your comment has not appeared here, you can try <span class="noprint plainlinks purgelink"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus&action=purge"><span title="Purge this page">purging the cache</span></a></span>.</div><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1240928998"><div class="nomobile"></div> <ul><li>I was surprised to learn that almost half of the articles in German don't have English language concurrent articles. This is not very healthy as we have so many notable Germans with no mentions in English Wikipedia and we are being deprived of vital information. Now I am not suggesting that we create English language articles for all of those, it would be too time-consuming. But at least for a certain number of such articles, it is well worth our while to do what's necessary. We could set a target that within the next 2 years, necessary steps would be taken to cover let's say 75% of the German articles in English instead of the present 50%. That would add a huge number of articles of notable German individuals and subjects, wouldn't it. If this cannot be presently achieved for some reason, we could at least create redirect pages in English Wikipedia with the appropriate short description, defaultsort, language links and appropriate categories with the resulting redirect page pointing to the German page for now. Or, instead of a redirect page, a template would be created that will inform reader that there is actually a German language article for the said individual or subject. This could also similarly apply for say Italian, Spanish and French language articles as a start, possibly also Arabic, Portuguese and Chinese at a later stage. The "translate" feature would do the rest once we are led to the language page of the non-existant English language article. <a href="/wiki/User:Werldwayd" title="User:Werldwayd">werldwayd</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Werldwayd" title="User talk:Werldwayd">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z-Discuss_this_story" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:08, 26 April 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z-Discuss_this_story"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z-Discuss_this_story"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nikkimaria-2020-04-26T20:29:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span>I think a first step would be to assess <i>why</i> we don't have an English article matching one on another wiki. Is it solely because of a language barrier? Is the concept covered by a different article? Does the explanation lie in differing notability guidelines between projects? A translate-a-thon is not a bad idea in theory but further analysis would be useful in better understanding the underlying issues. <a href="/wiki/User:Nikkimaria" title="User:Nikkimaria">Nikkimaria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nikkimaria" title="User talk:Nikkimaria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Nikkimaria-2020-04-26T20:29:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:29, 26 April 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nikkimaria-2020-04-26T20:29:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nikkimaria-2020-04-26T20:29:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Denny-2020-04-26T20:55:00.000Z-Nikkimaria-2020-04-26T20:29:00.000Z"></span>Here's a quick query that shows you a few hundred German articles without one in English (should be easy to change the language on that): <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://w.wiki/P7d">https://w.wiki/P7d</a></li></ul> <dl><dd>Probably even more interesting is this, the list of articles that exist both in the German and Spanish Wikipedia, but not in English: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://w.wiki/P7f">https://w.wiki/P7f</a></dd> <dd>This is just for starting this investigation, obviously, we should have a much deeper analysis, I agree with that. --<a href="/wiki/User:Denny" title="User:Denny">denny vrandečić</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Denny" title="User talk:Denny">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Denny-2020-04-26T20:55:00.000Z-Nikkimaria-2020-04-26T20:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:55, 26 April 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Denny-2020-04-26T20:55:00.000Z-Nikkimaria-2020-04-26T20:29:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Denny-2020-04-26T20:55:00.000Z-Nikkimaria-2020-04-26T20:29:00.000Z"></span> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z-Denny-2020-04-26T20:55:00.000Z"></span>Just because the article is in German and there's no English equivalent doesn't mean that that the article is about a German subject. I've encountered many articles in German about Australian athletes. <a href="/wiki/User:Hawkeye7" title="User:Hawkeye7"><span style="color:#800082">Hawkeye7</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hawkeye7" title="User talk:Hawkeye7"><span style="font-size:80%">(discuss)</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z-Denny-2020-04-26T20:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:23, 27 April 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z-Denny-2020-04-26T20:55:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z-Denny-2020-04-26T20:55:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bri-2020-04-26T21:00:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span>I have translated a few articles from German and other languages to English. In some other cases, the article I wanted to "port" had insufficient references per enwp requirements. This is not necessarily a surmountable problem with just more translators. Notability and BLP documentation standards differ between different Wikipedia language editions, and enwp seems to have a relatively high bar. Example, I just created a stub for <a href="/wiki/Paragraf_Lex" title="Paragraf Lex">Paragraf Lex</a>. It has zero references on Serbian Wikipedia. It appears to be somewhat notable; at least, it is cited <a href="/wiki/Special:LinkSearch/*.paragraf.rs" title="Special:LinkSearch/*.paragraf.rs">quite a few times</a> by English Wikipedia. ☆ <a href="/wiki/User:Bri" title="User:Bri">Bri</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bri" title="User talk:Bri">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Bri-2020-04-26T21:00:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bri-2020-04-26T21:00:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bri-2020-04-26T21:00:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bilorv-2020-04-26T21:18:00.000Z-Bri-2020-04-26T21:00:00.000Z"></span>Indeed, I'd expect us to have the highest bar as the largest Wikipedia (by some metrics). Lower bars encourage expansion of content and accumulating an editor base, which is good for small Wikipedias, whilst higher bars encourage improving the quality of already-existing content. Nonetheless, we do have systemic biases and no doubt there is a lot of useful translation that can be done, even if the aim is not to make an article for every subject on the German Wikipedia. — <a href="/wiki/User:Bilorv" title="User:Bilorv">Bilorv</a> (<b><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bilorv" title="User talk:Bilorv"><span style="color:purple">talk</span></a></b>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Bilorv-2020-04-26T21:18:00.000Z-Bri-2020-04-26T21:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:18, 26 April 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bilorv-2020-04-26T21:18:00.000Z-Bri-2020-04-26T21:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bilorv-2020-04-26T21:18:00.000Z-Bri-2020-04-26T21:00:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Llywrch-2020-04-27T03:40:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span>When we talk about articles existing in one language Wikipedia not being present in the English language Wikipedia, it doesn't always prove that there is a deficit needing to be addressed. For example, a few years back I was surprised to find the Bulgarian language Wikipedia has an article on every Consul of the Roman Empire known -- who number about 1,400 between 30 BC & AD 235. (en.wikipedia has somewhat more than 1,000.) I was impressed by that, & took a close look at a few ... only to find they were the most basic of stubs, consisting of little more information than "X was a politician of ancient Rome. X was a consul in year A with Y as his colleague", & some fancy templates. (Google translate works wonders in cases like this.) No sense translating stubs like these to the English Wikipedia; we create enough stubs on our own. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Llywrch" title="User:Llywrch">llywrch</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Llywrch" title="User talk:Llywrch">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Llywrch-2020-04-27T03:40:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:40, 27 April 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Llywrch-2020-04-27T03:40:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Llywrch-2020-04-27T03:40:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span></li></ul></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Broughton-2020-04-26T23:18:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span>"Almost half" means there are <i>more than one million articles</i> in the German language-version of Wikipedia that are not in the English version. So, regarding "We could set a target that within the next 2 years, necessary steps would be taken to cover let's say 75% of the German articles in English instead of the present 50%", there is no feasible path - today - to translate 500,000 articles in two years. There probably isn't a feasible path to translate even 5,000 articles, if by "feasible" we mean "finding volunteers who speak both languages fluently, and aren't busy doing other things". If we're going to get massive amounts of content from one language version into other language versions, the only way to do that is with computer-based processes, <i>lightly</i> reviewed by humans. Or by a donation of several billion dollars from a very well-endowed foundation or philanthropist. -- <span style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:15px;"><a href="/wiki/User:John_Broughton" title="User:John Broughton">John Broughton</a> </span> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Broughton" title="User talk:John Broughton">(♫♫)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-John_Broughton-2020-04-26T23:18:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:18, 26 April 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Broughton-2020-04-26T23:18:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Broughton-2020-04-26T23:18:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z-John_Broughton-2020-04-26T23:18:00.000Z"></span>What we really need is an automated translation tool that translates <i>everything but the text</i>. By which I mean the templates, links, tables, categories etc. This would greatly reduce the effort required. <a href="/wiki/User:Hawkeye7" title="User:Hawkeye7"><span style="color:#800082">Hawkeye7</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hawkeye7" title="User talk:Hawkeye7"><span style="font-size:80%">(discuss)</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z-John_Broughton-2020-04-26T23:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:23, 27 April 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z-John_Broughton-2020-04-26T23:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z-John_Broughton-2020-04-26T23:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lectonar-2020-04-27T10:22:00.000Z-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z"></span>But what we normally don't need is machine-translated content...have a look at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PNT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PNT">pages for translation</a>; there, many articles which have been machine-translated are listed, and are waiting to be evaluated/translated/copyedited, some of them for years . What we regulars over there that have learned: it's much more efficient and less time-consuming to write articles from scratch, using the foreign-language sources used in the other language article. Of course only if no English sources can be found. <a href="/wiki/User:Lectonar" title="User:Lectonar">Lectonar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lectonar" title="User talk:Lectonar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Lectonar-2020-04-27T10:22:00.000Z-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:22, 27 April 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lectonar-2020-04-27T10:22:00.000Z-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lectonar-2020-04-27T10:22:00.000Z-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Denny-2020-04-27T16:07:00.000Z-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z"></span>The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_translation_tool" title="Wikipedia:Content translation tool">Content translation tool</a> can offer that really well! <span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Amire80" title="User:Amire80">Amire80</a>:</span> for cc --<a href="/wiki/User:Denny" title="User:Denny">denny vrandečić</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Denny" title="User talk:Denny">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Denny-2020-04-27T16:07:00.000Z-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:07, 27 April 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Denny-2020-04-27T16:07:00.000Z-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Denny-2020-04-27T16:07:00.000Z-Hawkeye7-2020-04-27T01:23:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Amire80-2020-04-28T07:38:00.000Z-John_Broughton-2020-04-26T23:18:00.000Z"></span>Thanks, <b><a href="/wiki/User:Denny" title="User:Denny">denny vrandečić</a></b> :)</dd> <dd><b><a href="/wiki/User:Hawkeye7" title="User:Hawkeye7">Hawkeye7</a></b>, yes! Computers should translate what they can translate reliably: code, data, etc., and humans should translate prose. I'd go even further and say that ideally humans really should <i>not</i> translate things that can be reliably translated by computers. A good multilingual systems is supposed to strive for this: automate everything that can be <i>reliably</i> automated. I'm also fine with Denny's proposal in principle, because to the best of my understanding, what it suggests is auto-generating boilerplate prose from data reliably, while allowing people to write their own prose.</dd> <dd>As Denny says, Content Translation <i>kind of</i> does it, although not perfectly. It's pretty good at transferring links, images, and tables. Links are mostly a breeze, if the article exists in the language into which you are translating and they are connected using a Wikidata sitelink. Images are a breeze if they are on Commons. It's not perfect with complex tables because they are, well, complex, especially those that have a lot of columns and are too wide to fit in a narrow column, but yeah, it kind of works. <small>(The real solution for complex tables is to try thinking of storing what they show in a proper database, and then get the data to display in articles using queries that auto-adapt to different media. It would be a difficult project that will require a lot of infrastructure, but it's worth thinking about. But I digress.)</small></dd> <dd>Categories are a breeze, as long as directly corresponding categories had been created in the language into which you are translating. What often happens in practice is that the English Wikipedia's category tree is more complex because it has more articles and more need for deeper categories, so categories have to be manually added after the article created.</dd> <dd>Another thing you didn't mention is language-independent content, most notably math formulas.</dd> <dd>And this brings us to templates, which are the biggest pain. Translating templates works nicely in Content Translation if the corresponding template exists in the language into which you are translating, and all of its parameters had been correctly mapped using TemplateData. Templates and modules are currently stored on each wiki separately, so this has to be done for every template in every wiki, and in practice this doesn't scale. It must be possible to make templates shareable, or global. I wrote a proposal for this: <a href="https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Proposed_specification,_short_version" class="extiw" title="mw:Global templates/Proposed specification, short version">mw:Global templates/Proposed specification, short version</a>. Your opinion about this is very welcome.</dd> <dd><b><a href="/wiki/User:Lectonar" title="User:Lectonar">Lectonar</a></b>, you are generally right, but here's the more nuanced approach to machine translation. If machine translation of a text from another language is posted as a Wikipedia article, this is worse than useless. This absolutely must not be done, ever. If, however, machine translation is used by a responsible human who corrects all the mistakes that it made and makes sure that the text reads naturally, has true information, and is well-adapted to the reader in the target language, and then this text is posted as a Wikipedia article, then it's indistinguishable from translation. If machine translation helped this human translator do it more quickly, then it was beneficial.</dd> <dd>Some people who translate texts find machine translation totally useless and prefer to translate everything from scratch. This is totally fine, too, but it's not absolute: There are also people who find that machine translation makes them more efficient. As long as they use it responsibly and post text only after verifying every word, this is okay. --<a href="/wiki/User:Amire80" title="User:Amire80">Amir E. Aharoni</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Amire80" title="User talk:Amire80">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Amire80-2020-04-28T07:38:00.000Z-John_Broughton-2020-04-26T23:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:38, 28 April 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Amire80-2020-04-28T07:38:00.000Z-John_Broughton-2020-04-26T23:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Amire80-2020-04-28T07:38:00.000Z-John_Broughton-2020-04-26T23:18:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></li> <li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Amire80-2020-04-28T08:12:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span>Responding more directly to the article, thanks again to <a href="/wiki/User:Denny" title="User:Denny">denny vrandečić</a> for mentioning <a href="https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates" class="extiw" title="mw:Global templates">global templates</a>. The two ideas are indeed related, although I'd say that we should make it possible to have globally shareable modules and templates first, and then proceed to complete something like Wikilambda. Here's my rationale: The syntax for writing modules and templates is familiar to many editors. The <a href="https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Proposed_specification,_short_version" class="extiw" title="mw:Global templates/Proposed specification, short version">global templates proposal</a> specifically says that it doesn't suggest changing anything about the programming languages in which they are written: wiki syntax, parameters, parser functions, Lua, etc. It only suggests a change in where they are stored: transitioning from the current state, in which modules and templates can only be stored and used on a single wiki, to having the option of storing some of them, those that are useful to multiple wikis, on a shared repository (while preserving the option of having local modules and templates). This is similar to having to option to store images on Commons. I've read <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://wikilambda.org/">the whole Wikilambda paper</a>, and my impression is that while it's probably not finalized, it's already clear enough that the proposed Wikilambda "renderer" language is a new thing that will be significantly different from wiki syntax and Lua. This is legitimate, but it makes a lot more sense to start a global repository from something familiar. In addition, developing a global repository will probably require updating some things deep in the core MediaWiki platform so that the performance of change propagation across sites will be better, and this will also improve the performance of some existing things, most importantly Commons and Wikidata. Once this core improvement is done for familiar things like images (Commons), structured data (Wikidata), and wiki syntax (modules and templates), it will be easy to build Wikilambda upon it. --<a href="/wiki/User:Amire80" title="User:Amire80">Amir E. Aharoni</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Amire80" title="User talk:Amire80">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Amire80-2020-04-28T08:12:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:12, 28 April 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Amire80-2020-04-28T08:12:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Amire80-2020-04-28T08:12:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sj-2020-05-05T23:22:00.000Z-Amire80-2020-04-28T08:12:00.000Z"></span>This makes a lot of sense to me, but does not strike me as a botteleneck. It will take some time to set up the basic site + processes for Wλ, and we can pursue a "global sharing" framework at the same time which will be useful for Wλ once it gets underway. <span style="color:#666">– <a href="/wiki/User:Sj" title="User:Sj">SJ</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sj" title="User talk:Sj"><span style="color:#f90;"> +</span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Sj-2020-05-05T23:22:00.000Z-Amire80-2020-04-28T08:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:22, 5 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sj-2020-05-05T23:22:00.000Z-Amire80-2020-04-28T08:12:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sj-2020-05-05T23:22:00.000Z-Amire80-2020-04-28T08:12:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></li></ul> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-01T18:57:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span>If I undertake to write an article for English Wikipedia, I generally have to find English-language sources. German-language sources aren't much help to my English-speaking readers.</li></ul> <dl><dd>In effect, notability is defined per-language. For any particular article in German Wikipedia, the topic may not be suitable for English Wikipedia, if there are not enough appropriate English-language sources. <a href="/wiki/User:Bruce_leverett" title="User:Bruce leverett">Bruce leverett</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bruce_leverett" title="User talk:Bruce leverett">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-01T18:57:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:57, 1 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-01T18:57:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-01T18:57:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Amire80-2020-05-02T12:16:00.000Z-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-01T18:57:00.000Z"></span>This is not an issue. According to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOENG" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOENG">WP:NOENG</a>, English sources are preferred in the English Wikipedia, but non-English sources are allowed, and this is sensible. As for notability, my understanding is that this Multilingual Wikipedia / Abstract Wikipedia / Wikilambda proposal doesn't intend to force any article to appear in any language, but only to give an easier way to auto-generate basic articles in languages that are interested in them. --<a href="/wiki/User:Amire80" title="User:Amire80">Amir E. Aharoni</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Amire80" title="User talk:Amire80">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Amire80-2020-05-02T12:16:00.000Z-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-01T18:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:16, 2 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Amire80-2020-05-02T12:16:00.000Z-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-01T18:57:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Amire80-2020-05-02T12:16:00.000Z-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-01T18:57:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-02T18:42:00.000Z-Amire80-2020-05-02T12:16:00.000Z"></span>Non-English sources are "allowed", but, to repeat what I said above, "German-language sources aren't much help to my English-speaking readers". Yes, I expect people to read the footnotes, and click on them. I understand that for some articles, including some that I have worked on, this isn't an issue. But the implication is that creating a non-stub English-language version of a foreign-language article is more than just running Google translate and fixing up the results -- much more. I'm not scoffing; in many cases of, for example, chess biographies, I have yearned to be able to transplant the knowledge from a foreign-language article to English. But it's only a little less work than writing a new article from scratch. <a href="/wiki/User:Bruce_leverett" title="User:Bruce leverett">Bruce leverett</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bruce_leverett" title="User talk:Bruce leverett">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-02T18:42:00.000Z-Amire80-2020-05-02T12:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:42, 2 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-02T18:42:00.000Z-Amire80-2020-05-02T12:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-02T18:42:00.000Z-Amire80-2020-05-02T12:16:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:48:00.000Z-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-02T18:42:00.000Z"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Bruce_leverett" title="User:Bruce leverett">Bruce leverett</a>:</span> Agreed. There's also nothing that would stop us from using a cite mechanism in the Abstract Wikipedia that prefers sources in the language of the Wiki when available, and only falls back to sources in other languages if none is given. I guess it is still better to have a source in a foreign language than have no source at all, but I totally understand and agree with the idea that sources in the local language should be preferred on display. --<a href="/wiki/User:Denny" title="User:Denny">denny vrandečić</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Denny" title="User talk:Denny">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:48:00.000Z-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-02T18:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:48, 11 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:48:00.000Z-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-02T18:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:48:00.000Z-Bruce_leverett-2020-05-02T18:42:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hawkeye7-2020-07-05T23:26:00.000Z-Denny-2020-05-11T20:48:00.000Z"></span><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">I expect people to read the footnotes, and click on them</q> You're going to be very disappointed. Not only don't they read the footnotes, sometimes they post questions on the talk page admitting that they didn't read the article. <abbr title="Smiling face" style="border-bottom: none;"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Face-smile.svg/18px-Face-smile.svg.png" decoding="async" width="18" height="18" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Face-smile.svg/27px-Face-smile.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Face-smile.svg/36px-Face-smile.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></span></span></abbr> <a href="/wiki/User:Hawkeye7" title="User:Hawkeye7"><span style="color:#800082">Hawkeye7</span></a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hawkeye7" title="User talk:Hawkeye7"><span style="font-size:80%">(discuss)</span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Hawkeye7-2020-07-05T23:26:00.000Z-Denny-2020-05-11T20:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:26, 5 July 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hawkeye7-2020-07-05T23:26:00.000Z-Denny-2020-05-11T20:48:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hawkeye7-2020-07-05T23:26:00.000Z-Denny-2020-05-11T20:48:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bahnfrend-2020-05-02T13:07:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span>I have read both the Signpost article and the separate article. In theory, "Wikilambda" sounds like a good idea. In practice, however, I think it would be too complex to implement. I have been interested in, and have had some ability in, computer programming since I was first exposed to computers in the late 1970s. I have been a Wikipedia editor for more than a decade, and have translated hundreds of Wikipedia articles from another language (mostly either German or Italian) into English (usually with the assistance of Google translate). But I really doubt whether I would have the computing skills to contribute anything to "Wikilambda"; I found it difficult enough to draft the code necessary to transclude Wikidata information into Wikipedia infoboxes, to such an extent that I had to procure another Wikipedia editor to help me. "Wikilambda" seems so hard to grasp that I don't think I would even try to get involved in it. Maybe if the proposer could convince enough computer geeks who speak more than one language fluently to become contributors to "Wikilambda", then it might be able to get off the ground. But I have my doubts. <a href="/wiki/User:Bahnfrend" title="User:Bahnfrend">Bahnfrend</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bahnfrend" title="User talk:Bahnfrend">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Bahnfrend-2020-05-02T13:07:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:07, 2 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bahnfrend-2020-05-02T13:07:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bahnfrend-2020-05-02T13:07:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:53:00.000Z-Bahnfrend-2020-05-02T13:07:00.000Z"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Bahnfrend" title="User:Bahnfrend">Bahnfrend</a>:</span> But isn't that true for Wikipedia in general? We have people with different skill sets working together. Bots written in Python, templates written with many curly braces, modules in Lua, tables, images, categories, and beautiful natural language text.</dd> <dd>The important part is that the actual content can be contributed by many people, because that is where we must make sure that the barrier is low. This is what the project really needs to get right, and it devotes quite a few resources to this challenge.</dd> <dd>For Wikilambda itself, yes, that's a very different kind of beast - and will have a different kind of community with a different set of contributors. But they don't have to be the same contributors that contribute to the Content of the Abstract Wikipedias. But again, as in Wikipedia we will have volunteers with different skill sets working together and achieving more than they could alone. --<a href="/wiki/User:Denny" title="User:Denny">denny vrandečić</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Denny" title="User talk:Denny">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:53:00.000Z-Bahnfrend-2020-05-02T13:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:53, 11 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:53:00.000Z-Bahnfrend-2020-05-02T13:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:53:00.000Z-Bahnfrend-2020-05-02T13:07:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sj-2020-05-05T23:22:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span>Always a promising idea, and seems very doable now that related substructure is available. Let us! I suggest EO as an early target wiki, for all of the reasons. <span style="color:#666">– <a href="/wiki/User:Sj" title="User:Sj">SJ</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sj" title="User talk:Sj"><span style="color:#f90;"> +</span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Sj-2020-05-05T23:22:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:22, 5 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sj-2020-05-05T23:22:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sj-2020-05-05T23:22:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:49:00.000Z-Sj-2020-05-05T23:22:00.000Z"></span>Thank you! --<a href="/wiki/User:Denny" title="User:Denny">denny vrandečić</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Denny" title="User talk:Denny">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:49:00.000Z-Sj-2020-05-05T23:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:49, 11 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:49:00.000Z-Sj-2020-05-05T23:22:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:49:00.000Z-Sj-2020-05-05T23:22:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kaldari-2020-05-08T21:52:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span>[Moved my comments to <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikilambda#Kaldari's_concerns" class="extiw" title="meta:Talk:Wikilambda">meta:Talk:Wikilambda#Kaldari's_concerns</a>] <a href="/wiki/User:Kaldari" title="User:Kaldari">Kaldari</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kaldari" title="User talk:Kaldari">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Kaldari-2020-05-08T21:52:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:52, 8 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kaldari-2020-05-08T21:52:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kaldari-2020-05-08T21:52:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:49:00.000Z-Kaldari-2020-05-08T21:52:00.000Z"></span>Answered there, thanks! --<a href="/wiki/User:Denny" title="User:Denny">denny vrandečić</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Denny" title="User talk:Denny">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:49:00.000Z-Kaldari-2020-05-08T21:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:49, 11 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:49:00.000Z-Kaldari-2020-05-08T21:52:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Denny-2020-05-11T20:49:00.000Z-Kaldari-2020-05-08T21:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Denny-2020-07-05T17:49:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z"></span>Update: the proposal has been <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Abstract_Wikipedia/July_2020_announcement" class="extiw" title="m:Abstract Wikipedia/July 2020 announcement">approved by the Wikimedia Board of Trustees</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Denny" title="User:Denny">denny vrandečić</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Denny" title="User talk:Denny">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2020-04-26/In_focus#c-Denny-2020-07-05T17:49:00.000Z-Werldwayd-2020-04-26T20:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:49, 5 July 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" 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