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padding: 1px 3px;"><span class="plainlinks"><i>Find sources:</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?as_eq=wikipedia&q=%22Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect%22">Google</a> (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&q=%22Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect%22+-wikipedia">books</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=%22Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect%22+-wikipedia&tbs=ar:1">news</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect%22">scholar</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&tbs=sur:fmc&tbm=isch&q=%22Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect%22+-site:wikipedia.org+-site:wikimedia.org">free images</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&cx=007734830908295939403%3Agalkqgoksq0&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3AWikipedia%2520Reference%2520Search&q=%22Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect%22">WP refs</a>) <b>·</b> <span title="Free English newspaper sources" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Free_English_newspaper_sources">FENS</a></span> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect%22&acc=on&wc=on">JSTOR</a> <b>·</b> <span title="The Wikipedia Library" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/search/?q=%22Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect%22">TWL</a></span></span></td></tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; 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padding: 0;"><div> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:Dunning–Kruger effect/" name="prefix"/> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </div></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1135653291">@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .article-history{min-width:80%}}</style><table class="article-history tmbox tmbox-notice"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_support_vote.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Good article"><img alt="Good article" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/40px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="41" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/60px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Symbol_support_vote.svg/80px-Symbol_support_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><b>Dunning–Kruger effect</b> has been listed as one of the <i><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_articles/Social_sciences_and_society" title="Wikipedia:Good articles/Social sciences and society">Social sciences and society good articles</a></b></i> under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_criteria" title="Wikipedia:Good article criteria">good article criteria</a>. If you can improve it further, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold" title="Wikipedia:Be bold">please do so</a>. <small><i>If it no longer meets these criteria, you can <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment" title="Wikipedia:Good article reassessment">reassess</a></b> it</i>.</small></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" style="width:100%"><table class="article-history-milestones mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="width:100%;font-size:90%"><tbody><tr><th colspan="3" style="font-size:110%"><span style="float:left"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_question.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Did You Know"><img alt="Did You Know" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/15px-Symbol_question.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/23px-Symbol_question.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/30px-Symbol_question.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span></span> Article milestones</th></tr><tr style="text-align:left"><th>Date</th><th>Process</th><th>Result</th></tr><tr><td>February 23, 2023</td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect/GA1" title="Talk:Dunning–Kruger effect/GA1">Good article nominee</a></b></td><td>Not listed</td></tr><tr><td>June 27, 2023</td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect/archive1" title="Wikipedia:Peer review/Dunning–Kruger effect/archive1">Peer review</a></b></td><td>Reviewed</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect&oldid=1171842359">August 23, 2023</a></span></td><td><b><a href="/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect/GA2" title="Talk:Dunning–Kruger effect/GA2">Good article nominee</a></b></td><td>Listed</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" style="width:100%"><div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><div><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_question.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Did You Know"><img alt="Did You Know" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/20px-Symbol_question.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/30px-Symbol_question.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Symbol_question.svg/40px-Symbol_question.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span> A <a href="/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect" title="Template:Did you know nominations/Dunning–Kruger effect">fact from this article</a> appeared on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Main_Page" title="Main Page">Main Page</a> in the <i>"<a href="/wiki/Template:Did_you_know" title="Template:Did you know">Did you know?</a>"</i> column on <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Recent_additions/2023/September#4_September_2023" title="Wikipedia:Recent additions/2023/September">September 4, 2023</a></b>.</div><div class="mw-collapsible-content" style="border:1px silver solid">The text of the entry was: <i>Did you know ... that "the first rule of the <b><a href="/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect" title="Dunning–Kruger effect">Dunning–Kruger club</a></b> is you don't know you're a member of the Dunning–Kruger club"?</i></div></div></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">Current status: <b>Good article</b></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1243927654">.mw-parser-output .banner-shell{border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:4px}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-header{text-align:center;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output 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text-align: center"><p><i><a href="/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect" title="Dunning–Kruger effect">Dunning–Kruger effect</a></i> has been linked from multiple high-traffic websites.</p> <p class="plainlinks"><small>All prior and subsequent edits to the article are noted in <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect&action=history">its revision history</a>.</small></p> <table style="width:90%; background:transparent; font-weight: normal;" class="mw-collapsible"> <caption style="font-weight: bold">Table </caption> <tbody><tr> <td style="text-align:left;">22 June 2007 </td> <td style="text-align:left;"><a href="/wiki/Reddit" title="Reddit">Reddit</a> </td> <td style="text-align:right;"><small><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://redd.it/2087r">link</a></small> </td> <td style="text-align:right;"><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&range=latest-60&pages=Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect">Traffic</a></span> </td></tr> <tr> <td style="text-align:left;">23 June 2007 </td> <td style="text-align:left;"><a href="/wiki/Digg" title="Digg">Digg</a> </td> <td style="text-align:right;"><small><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://digg.com/tech_news/Does_the_average_digger_suffer_of_the_Dunning_Kruger_syndrome">link</a></small> </td> <td style="text-align:right;"><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&range=latest-60&pages=Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect">Traffic</a></span> </td></tr> </tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"> </p> <table id="archivebox" role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice mbox-small" style="text-align: center; padding: 1em;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="padding:0.6em 0 0.25em;"> <div style="width:100%; overflow:hidden;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></a></span><br/><b>Archives</b></div> </td></tr><tr> <td class="plainlinks"> <table style="width: 100%; padding: 0px; text-align: center; background-color: transparent;"><tbody><tr><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect/Archive_1" title="Talk:Dunning–Kruger effect/Archive 1">Archive 1</a></td><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect/Archive_2" title="Talk:Dunning–Kruger effect/Archive 2">Archive 2</a></td><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect/Archive_3" title="Talk:Dunning–Kruger effect/Archive 3">Archive 3</a></td></tr><tr><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect/Archive_4" title="Talk:Dunning–Kruger effect/Archive 4">Archive 4</a></td><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect/Archive_5" title="Talk:Dunning–Kruger effect/Archive 5">Archive 5</a></td><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect/Archive_6" title="Talk:Dunning–Kruger effect/Archive 6">Archive 6</a></td></tr></tbody></table> </td> </tr><tr><td style="padding-bottom:11px"><div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-inputbox-input mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="22" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:Dunning–Kruger effect/" name="prefix"/><br/><input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </td></tr><tr><td style="padding:0px 10px; font-size:11.9px;"> <hr/> This page has archives. Sections older than <b>90 days</b> may be automatically archived by <span class="nowraplinks"><a href="/wiki/User:Lowercase_sigmabot_III" title="User:Lowercase sigmabot III">Lowercase sigmabot III</a></span> when more than 4 sections are present.</td></tr> </tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation" data-mw-thread-id="h-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation-20230107161000"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation-20230107161000"></span>DK Effect is Simply Autocorrelation<span data-mw-comment-end="h-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation-20230107161000"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: DK Effect is Simply Autocorrelation"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chassin-20230107161000-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"></span>The article otherwise largely fails to communicate the degree to which the DK effect is pseudoscience. The statement "the statistical explanation interprets these findings as statistical artifacts" needs to be expanded and made much more prominent to explain why the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2022/04/08/the-dunning-kruger-effect-is-autocorrelation/">effect is simply autocorrelation</a> and should not be basis for any cognitive or metacognitive claims despite its appeal. The autocorrelation claim is easy to understand and should be a convincing argument for changing the first paragraph to make clear that while the concept is appealing, it is not based on a valid statistically methodology and should not be taken too seriously. </p> <dl><dd>The Dunning–Kruger effect is a claimed cognitive bias[2] whereby people with low ability, expertise, or experience regarding a certain type of task or area of knowledge tend to overestimate their ability or knowledge. Some researchers also include in their definition the opposite effect for high performers: their tendency to underestimate their skills. Despite its intuitive appeal the effect can be statistically explained as autocorrelation<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2022/04/08/the-dunning-kruger-effect-is-autocorrelation">[1]</a> and should not be used to formally explain cognitive biases or metacognitive phenomena regarding self-evaluation of ability, knowledge or experience.</dd></dl> <p>Simply put for any sample of test scores on a 0-10 scale, the likelihood that someone who scores 0 will overestimate the performance is necessarily higher than someone who scores 10. The reverse is also true: anyone who scores 10 will necessarily underestimate their performance more that someone who scores 0. </p><p>The ironies are replete, as pointed out in <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2022/04/08/the-dunning-kruger-effect-is-autocorrelation/">the article</a>: "there is a delightful irony to the circumstances of their [Dunning and Kruger's] blunder. Here are two Ivy League professors arguing that unskilled people have a ‘dual burden’: not only are unskilled people ‘incompetent’ ... they are unaware of their own incompetence. [...] In their seminal paper, Dunning and Kruger are the ones broadcasting their (statistical) incompetence by conflating autocorrelation for a psychological effect." </p><p>The popularity of the DK effect may be an interesting study in how bad science can take hold in the popular mind given how many people seem to take it seriously without considering the fatal flaws in the methodology used to identify the alleged phenomenon. DK also serves as an example of how bad science can get through the scientific peer review process, especially if it comes from a highly reputable institution. --<a href="/wiki/User:Chassin" title="User:Chassin">Chassin</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chassin&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Chassin (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Chassin-20230107161000-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:10, 7 January 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chassin-20230107161000-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chassin-20230107161000-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20230107163500-Chassin-20230107161000"></span>This has already been discussed several times. See, for example, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect/Archive_5#Neutral_Point_of_View" title="Talk:Dunning–Kruger effect/Archive 5">Talk:Dunning–Kruger_effect/Archive_5#Neutral_Point_of_View</a> and <a href="/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect/Archive_5#Is_this_true?" title="Talk:Dunning–Kruger effect/Archive 5">Talk:Dunning–Kruger_effect/Archive_5#Is_this_true?</a>. For details on the criticisms of the Dunning–Kruger effect, see the section <a href="/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#Criticism_and_alternatives" title="Dunning–Kruger effect">Dunning–Kruger_effect#Criticism_and_alternatives</a> in our article. And your source, <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/">https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/</a>, is not reliable. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20230107163500-Chassin-20230107161000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:35, 7 January 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20230107163500-Chassin-20230107161000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20230107163500-Chassin-20230107161000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chassin-20230107195800-Phlsph7-20230107163500"></span>Other sources may indeed be preferred, such as <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1188&context=numeracy">Nuhfer et al (2006)</a>. The outcome of previous discussions notwithstanding, the fact remains that the opening paragraphs of the introduction still fail to offer caveats regarding flaws in empirical methods used to support the claims, and instead tend to give credence to it based on its broad application and intuitive appeal. If anything, the only effect Dunning claims to have identified is the tendency for <i>everyone</i> to overestimate their ability, not just people with low ability, and certainly not for those with high ability to underestimate theirs. The first paragraph is misleading in multiple respects and should be revised to address these shortcomings.</dd> <dd>The first mention of criticism is in paragraph 4 and characterizes it as "debate" and dismisses it as "not denying the empirical findings", when that is precisely what the statistical criticism does unequivocally. If we compare how criticism of this topic is addressed to the pseudoscience of <a href="/wiki/Physiognomy" title="Physiognomy">physiognomy</a>, we can clearly see in the opening of the second paragraph that it is "regarded among academic circles because of its unsupported claims; popular belief in the practice of physiognomy is nonetheless still widespread". The same can be said of the DK effect insofar as the shapes of peoples heads differ and people self-evaluate inaccurately, but the differences in head shapes and self-evaluation errors do not provide the necessary support for their respective theories regarding ability, expertise, or experience. On the contrary, the empirical data when analyzed correctly falsifies them both equally, which in the final analysis is only method we have at our disposal. --<a href="/wiki/User:Chassin" title="User:Chassin">Chassin</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chassin&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Chassin (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Chassin-20230107195800-Phlsph7-20230107163500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:58, 7 January 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chassin-20230107195800-Phlsph7-20230107163500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chassin-20230107195800-Phlsph7-20230107163500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Paradoctor-20230107202500-Chassin-20230107195800"></span><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">the empirical data when analyzed correctly falsifies them both equally</q> Which reliable source says so? <span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(-3deg);bottom:-.1em;"><a href="/wiki/User:Paradoctor" title="User:Paradoctor">Paradoctor</a></span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Paradoctor" title="User talk:Paradoctor">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Paradoctor-20230107202500-Chassin-20230107195800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:25, 7 January 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Paradoctor-20230107202500-Chassin-20230107195800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Paradoctor-20230107202500-Chassin-20230107195800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-77.204.39.138-20230608174900-Paradoctor-20230107202500"></span>See <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://fortune.com/2023/05/08/what-is-dunning-kruger-effect-smart-intelligence-competence-john-cleese/">https://fortune.com/2023/05/08/what-is-dunning-kruger-effect-smart-intelligence-competence-john-cleese/</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/77.204.39.138" title="Special:Contributions/77.204.39.138">77.204.39.138</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:77.204.39.138&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:77.204.39.138 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-77.204.39.138-20230608174900-Paradoctor-20230107202500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:49, 8 June 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-77.204.39.138-20230608174900-Paradoctor-20230107202500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-77.204.39.138-20230608174900-Paradoctor-20230107202500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dagelf-20240309074300-Chassin-20230107161000"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Chassin" title="User:Chassin">Chassin</a> Perhaps the article itself, as well as the studies, are proof enough, not because of, perhaps in spite of what they thought they studied. User:Dagelf|Dagelf]] (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dagelf" title="User talk:Dagelf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Dagelf-20240309074300-Chassin-20230107161000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:43, 9 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dagelf-20240309074300-Chassin-20230107161000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dagelf-20240309074300-Chassin-20230107161000"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Metatrain-20241121083300-Chassin-20230107161000"></span>I think you're putting way too much faith in that one article (a blog post, really) and its dubious claims. The main issue that I find with it is the fact that the author of that blog post uses the term "autocorrelation" incorrectly (he doesn't seem to understand what autocorrelation actually is). For another perspective, here's a rebuttal from data scientist Daniel Anderson explaining why the major claims in the article you posted are wrong (he includes worked out examples): <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://andersource.dev/2022/04/19/dk-autocorrelation.html">https://andersource.dev/2022/04/19/dk-autocorrelation.html</a> <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Metatrain&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Metatrain (page does not exist)">Metatrain</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Metatrain" title="User talk:Metatrain">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Metatrain-20241121083300-Chassin-20230107161000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Metatrain-20241121083300-Chassin-20230107161000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Metatrain-20241121083300-Chassin-20230107161000"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127003400-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"></span>I looked into this, the archived discussion doesn't seem to be particularly convincing on why not to mention dissent here. The scientific articles quoted by Fix seem rather convincing (if not damning) on the maths. But I get that they haven't been cited as often as the Dunning Kruger article they're pointing at. I'm pretty sure I can't get away with AFDing the article or something crazy like that. But... I do think that NPOV allows me to put the counterveiling point of view that Dunning-Kruger's paper is bad because (given sources claim) they messed up their maths. --<a href="/wiki/User:Kim_Bruning" title="User:Kim Bruning">Kim Bruning</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kim_Bruning" title="User talk:Kim Bruning">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Kim_Bruning-20231127003400-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:34, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a> <small> <i>(Even if they didn't mess up their maths, they definitely did maths in a way that has been confusing to skilled scientists. They may have ended up confusing themselves, this seems plausible based on the cited sources. Either way, not Wikipedia's battle: But for sure we can write that not everyone thinks the effect is real!)</i> </small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127003400-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127003400-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127112300-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"></span>So I might be a little rusty. What's the exact policy reasons for removal of each of the sources? The published papers demonstrate that you can get the Dunning-Kruger graph from random noise (oops). The web source confirm-ably summarizes the papers, thus can usefully be seen as a secondary source. Usually when people actually dig in and read sources, they do also take 1 minute extra time to post their findings on the talk page (or link to where it was previously discussed) But I'll go read them again just to be sure, did I miss anything? --<a href="/wiki/User:Kim_Bruning" title="User:Kim Bruning">Kim Bruning</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kim_Bruning" title="User talk:Kim Bruning">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Kim_Bruning-20231127112300-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127112300-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127112300-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127114000-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"></span>Annnd... just came back from reading papers, especially <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1215&context=numeracy">Nuefer 2017</a> concludes with: <i>"Because of insufficient attention to Numeracy, Current prevalent explanations of the nature of human self-assessment seem to rest on a tenuous foundation."</i>. </p><p>Due to the <a href="/wiki/Replication_crisis" title="Replication crisis">replication crisis</a> in (among others) psychology, we're likely to see many papers like these going forward. Maybe I'm late to this party: is there standing Wikipedia policy when it comes to bad replications or methodological flaws? Else I'd just apply NPOV, and at least report that there have been reported issues with a particular study. (whether the report is correct or not is a different story, but it got published, so we can say it has and by whom.) --<a href="/wiki/User:Kim_Bruning" title="User:Kim Bruning">Kim Bruning</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kim_Bruning" title="User talk:Kim Bruning">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Kim_Bruning-20231127114000-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:40, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127114000-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127114000-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20231127125600-Kim_Bruning-20231127114000"></span>Hello <a href="/wiki/User:Kim_Bruning" title="User:Kim Bruning">Kim Bruning</a> and thanks for your attempts to improve this article. I agree that it can be challenging to get arrive at a balanced overview of the academic literature on the Dunning-Kruger effect.</dd> <dd>The lead section is supposed to summarize the body of the article. If you want to add new content to the article, it's usually best to add them first to the body of the article. If they are accepted, a later step might be to consider whether the new content is important enough to get a short mention in the lead section, see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEAD">WP:LEAD</a></dd> <dd>If you want to add some content to the body of the article, you should make sure that it is based on reliable sources, see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a>. For example "economicsfromthetopdown.com" is not a reliable source for the Dunning-Kruger effect. The body of the article already discusses the statistical explanation. So it might be best to read through it first and familiarize yourself with the sources cited there before adding new text to it. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20231127125600-Kim_Bruning-20231127114000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:56, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20231127125600-Kim_Bruning-20231127114000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20231127125600-Kim_Bruning-20231127114000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127130600-Phlsph7-20231127125600"></span>Ah, our posts crossed, yup I was doing that.</dd> <dd>On third rereading of article alongside sources , we actually have a section <a href="/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#Statistical" title="Dunning–Kruger effect">Statistical</a>. The actual papers say it's a statistical artifact alright. In regular English they're saying "there's actually no effect".</dd> <dd>I sort of get why Gignac 2020 gets cited throughout: because it has a very thorough review. The thing is, Gignac et al do this thorough review so that they can then set up a very thorough attack. They follow it by their own empirical study with a very large sample size. In this empirical study -with corrected methods- they fail to replicate Dunning-Krueger. The conclusion (very carefully and politely worded, as is proper) states that they expect that pretty much every Dunning-Krueger study will fall if subjected to more detailed scrutiny with the improved statistical methods we have available today.</dd> <dd>A lot of people read citations as being <i>supportive</i> of a claim or view. Rather -here- citation of Gignac is often merely supportive of the fact that a particular view has been published. If that was all, I think at least something in the intro that says that more recent sources have replication issues would be fine.</dd> <dd>But we actually do have a section that says "it's a statistical artifact". Somehow I feel this section is not quite clear in pointing out that those papers are saying "Dunning-Krueger effect is not a thing". Possibly because the underlying papers use somewhat couched wording?</dd> <dd>I fully understand that patrollers can't always go and read sources in-depth. I'd appreciate any tips (or links to tips) on how to make their life easier here. --<a href="/wiki/User:Kim_Bruning" title="User:Kim Bruning">Kim Bruning</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kim_Bruning" title="User talk:Kim Bruning">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Kim_Bruning-20231127130600-Phlsph7-20231127125600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a> <small><i>It'd be funny if wikipedia had an 'externally disputed' banner, for effects that -at times- have failed to replicate. While a fun idea, it's sadly probably above wikipedia's pay grade.</i></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127130600-Phlsph7-20231127125600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127130600-Phlsph7-20231127125600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20231127132200-Kim_Bruning-20231127130600"></span>I removed the added passage for now. If you have suggestions on how to improve the section on the statistical effect then they are welcome. But it might be helpful to give the reliable sources cited there a close reading before. For example, Gignac 2020 do not deny the existence of the Dunning-Kruger effect in general. They primarily state that its magnitude is smaller than initially thought because part of it can be explained through statistics. You also have to be careful whether the studies in question assess the Dunning-Kruger effect measured in relative terms or in absolute terms, as explained in the section "Measurement, analysis, and investigated tasks". Many only target the Dunning-Kruger effect measured in relative terms. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20231127132200-Kim_Bruning-20231127130600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:22, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20231127132200-Kim_Bruning-20231127130600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20231127132200-Kim_Bruning-20231127130600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20231127130000-Kim_Bruning-20231127114000"></span>To avoid further edit warring, I suggest that you create a draft first and propose it at the talk page rather adding and re-adding your content directly to the article, see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:EDITWAR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:EDITWAR">WP:EDITWAR</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20231127130000-Kim_Bruning-20231127114000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:00, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20231127130000-Kim_Bruning-20231127114000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20231127130000-Kim_Bruning-20231127114000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127131800-Phlsph7-20231127130000"></span>Right, so procedurally speaking, so far I've adhered to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:1RR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:1RR">WP:1RR</a>, which falls rather short of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:EDITWAR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:EDITWAR">WP:EDITWAR</a>, I should think. I do agree that there are only very few exceptions to the rule that one should not revert a revert, but in this case "other party did not engage on talk page" is actually one of them. The reason is that since they don't reply on talk, there's simply no (D)iscussion on talk, and thus we can technically go back to (B)OLD and try again. It's not pretty but (sometimes) it works; and isn't that just <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BRD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BRD">WP:BRD</a> in a nutshell to begin with. :-/ --<a href="/wiki/User:Kim_Bruning" title="User:Kim Bruning">Kim Bruning</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kim_Bruning" title="User talk:Kim Bruning">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Kim_Bruning-20231127131800-Phlsph7-20231127130000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:18, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127131800-Phlsph7-20231127130000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kim_Bruning-20231127131800-Phlsph7-20231127130000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20231127132400-Kim_Bruning-20231127131800"></span>No problem so far, but for one reason or another, this article attracts edit wars. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20231127132400-Kim_Bruning-20231127131800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:24, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20231127132400-Kim_Bruning-20231127131800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20231127132400-Kim_Bruning-20231127131800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dagelf-20240309083900-Phlsph7-20231127132400"></span>A more ignorant me would've said <a href="/wiki/Id,_ego_and_superego#Ego" title="Id, ego and superego">Ego</a>... but the common use of the word is in stark contrast with William James and Freud's definition. But it speaks to peoples' sense of <a href="/w/index.php?title=Self_importance&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Self importance (page does not exist)">self importance</a>, which appears to be one of the few self evident things in life. Perhaps we should create the latter page and redirect it here...? <a href="/wiki/User:Dagelf" title="User:Dagelf">Dagelf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dagelf" title="User talk:Dagelf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Dagelf-20240309083900-Phlsph7-20231127132400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dagelf-20240309083900-Phlsph7-20231127132400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dagelf-20240309083900-Phlsph7-20231127132400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"><span style="display:block;width:16em;height:0.5em;border-bottom:1px solid #a2a9b1;border-right:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span><span style="display:block;width:16em;height:0.5em;border-left:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span></div><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Boud-20231127210500-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"></span>Three refereed papers on this topic have convenient Wikidata entries: </p><ul><li><ref name="Nuhfer2016">{{cite Q|Q56566524|url-status=live}}</ref><sup id="cite_ref-Nuhfer2016_1-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-Nuhfer2016-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> or repeat ref <ref name="Nuhfer2016" /><sup id="cite_ref-Nuhfer2016_1-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-Nuhfer2016-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li> <li><ref name="Nuhfer2017">{{cite Q|Q56566525|url-status=live}}</ref><sup id="cite_ref-Nuhfer2017_2-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-Nuhfer2017-2"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li> <li><ref name="Gignac2020">{{cite Q|Q108932700|url-status=live}}</ref><sup id="cite_ref-Gignac2020_3-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-Gignac2020-3"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></li></ul> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Boud" title="User:Boud">Boud</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Boud" title="User talk:Boud">talk</a>) 21:05, 27 November 2023 (UTC) <i>(PS: I see that the </i>sfn<i> structure for citation is used... <a href="/wiki/User:Boud" title="User:Boud">Boud</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Boud" title="User talk:Boud">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Boud-20231127210500-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:29, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a>)</i><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Boud-20231127210500-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Boud-20231127210500-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Boud-20231127220800-Boud-20231127210500"></span>I started a <i>small</i> section in the content, currently called <b>Validity dispute</b>, but there's probably a better section title to consense on. I think it's clear that the existence of the effect is disputed. Gignac & Zajenkowski 2020 don't just say that the effect "is" small, what they say in their abstract is <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">On the basis of a sample ... contrary to the Dunning-Kruger hypothesis. Additionally, the association ... contrary to the Dunning-Kruger hypothesis. It is concluded that, although the phenomenon described by the Dunning-Kruger hypothesis may be to some degree plausible for some skills, the magnitude of the eﬀect may be much smaller than reported previously.</q> In other words, they found evidence contrary to the Dunning-Kruger hypothesis while accepting that a small effect for some skills might exist (since they didn't do tests for all well-known skills).<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>Something should go up to the lead, but in proportion to the length of this section in the body, so currently it would have to be a very brief sentence. Waiting to see how this section develops would make sense: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NODEADLINE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NODEADLINE">there is no deadline</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Boud" title="User:Boud">Boud</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Boud" title="User talk:Boud">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Boud-20231127220800-Boud-20231127210500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:08, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Boud-20231127220800-Boud-20231127210500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Boud-20231127220800-Boud-20231127210500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20231127233800-Boud-20231127220800"></span>Hello <a href="/wiki/User:Boud" title="User:Boud">Boud</a> and thanks for taking the time to write this section. I slightly modified the text and merged it into the subsection "Statistical", which already discusses this interpretation. It would be great if you could add the precise page numbers since the claim seems to be quite strong. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20231127233800-Boud-20231127220800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:38, 27 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20231127233800-Boud-20231127220800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20231127233800-Boud-20231127220800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Constant314-20231128000800-Phlsph7-20231127233800"></span>I am not sure where this is going. How do you go from "there is a statistical explanation for DK effect" to "there is no DK effect"? I get the debate over whether DKE is a cognitive bias or just a statistical artifact, but gee, an effect is an effect no matter how it is explained. <a href="/wiki/User:Constant314" title="User:Constant314"><b style="color: #4400bb;"><i>Constant314</i></b></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Constant314" title="User talk:Constant314">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Constant314-20231128000800-Phlsph7-20231127233800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Constant314-20231128000800-Phlsph7-20231127233800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Constant314-20231128000800-Phlsph7-20231127233800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kim_Bruning-20231128042700-Constant314-20231128000800"></span>Scientists often word things very carefully. When scientists describe something as a "statistical artifact," they are often implying a significant doubt about the validity of the observed phenomenon as a true effect.</dd> <dd>In the case of the papers we looked at today, one of the papers <sup id="cite_ref-Nuhfer2016_1-2" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-Nuhfer2016-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> demonstrates that you can outright feed random data into a Dunning-Kruger-style statistical analysis and still get a very convincing looking outcome if you're not very very careful.</dd> <dd>Their subsequent paper <sup id="cite_ref-Nuhfer2017_2-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-Nuhfer2017-2"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> argues that people were indeed not careful enough.</dd> <dd>Note that <sup id="cite_ref-Nuhfer2017_2-2" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-Nuhfer2017-2"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> does find other self-assessment effects, just not the Dunning-Kruger effect.</dd> <dd>--<a href="/wiki/User:Kim_Bruning" title="User:Kim Bruning">Kim Bruning</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kim_Bruning" title="User talk:Kim Bruning">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Kim_Bruning-20231128042700-Constant314-20231128000800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:27, 28 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kim_Bruning-20231128042700-Constant314-20231128000800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kim_Bruning-20231128042700-Constant314-20231128000800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EEng-20231128082600-Kim_Bruning-20231128042700"></span>Please quote (with pg #s) the relevant passages from the papers you cite. <a href="/wiki/User:EEng#s" title="User:EEng"><b style="color:red;">E</b></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:EEng#s" title="User talk:EEng"><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-EEng-20231128082600-Kim_Bruning-20231128042700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:26, 28 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EEng-20231128082600-Kim_Bruning-20231128042700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EEng-20231128082600-Kim_Bruning-20231128042700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20231128083600-EEng-20231128082600"></span>I agree with <a href="/wiki/User:Constant314" title="User:Constant314">Constant314</a>: I don't think anyone disputes the effect shown in the diagram: if you ask people about how skilled they think they are and compare it with how skilled they actually are, you get the diagrams shown in the article. In this sense, there is an undisputed effect there. The disagreements are only about how to explain these diagrams.</dd> <dd>Trying to find claims in scientific articles that the researchers do not explicitly make can very easily lead to original research. If a paper does not directly support a claim then we should be very careful about making this claim in our articles. I found a page number for the bottom and ceiling effect. But this seems to be included in the regression toward the mean that is already explained earlier so I'm not sure that we need it. And the more widesweeping claim still needs page numbers.</dd> <dd>Even if we could find direct support for these radical claims in sources, we still have to be careful about <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">undue weight</a>. For example, from Mazor & Fleming 2021: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">In one of the most highly replicable findings in social psychology, Kruger and Dunning1 showed that participants who performed worse in tests of humour, reasoning, and grammar were also more likely to overestimate their performance</q>. This is a high-quality source (Nature Human Behaviour) that is more recent. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20231128083600-EEng-20231128082600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:36, 28 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20231128083600-EEng-20231128082600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20231128083600-EEng-20231128082600"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Boud-20231128185700-Phlsph7-20231128083600"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a>:</span> If you're happy with my edits to the paragraph, then please remove the <i>page needed</i> tag. I agree that "most of" was unjustified - without a full review of the post KD1999 literature, that claim cannot be made. Nuhfer do make a claim something along the lines of "most", but without trying to prove it, and their aim is not do a literature survey.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>I'm not sure if people here have already mentioned the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.bps.org.uk/psychologist/dunning-kruger-effect-and-its-discontents">March 2022 reply by Dunning</a>, but as a comment in a professional journal by a known expert (the D of DK), it should be usable, especially for some of its sources. <a href="/wiki/User:Boud" title="User:Boud">Boud</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Boud" title="User talk:Boud">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Boud-20231128185700-Phlsph7-20231128083600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:57, 28 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Boud-20231128185700-Phlsph7-20231128083600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Boud-20231128185700-Phlsph7-20231128083600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20231129082500-Boud-20231128185700"></span>Thanks for adding the page numbers, this helps. However, the quotes don't mention any specific statistically flawed studies so maybe we should not either. I reformulated the passage to be closer to the conclusion of the study and I removed the page needed tag. I also removed the mention of Gignac and Zajenkowski since their position in relation to statistical artifacts and alternative explanations is already discussed in detail earlier. Given the page number, I don't think that a lengthy quote is required but feel free to restore it if you disagree. I also added page number for Nuhfer et al. 2016 but I not sure how relevant it is for that particular conclusion. My main remaining doubt would be that it's not clear that this specific individual study merits to be mentioned. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20231129082500-Boud-20231128185700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:25, 29 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20231129082500-Boud-20231128185700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20231129082500-Boud-20231128185700"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dagelf-20240310002400-Phlsph7-20231128083600"></span>Perhaps <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1Jm4J1tjoz73ttUkRQjjrnsQbjgva3dS-#scrollTo=KJtQXS4olrtk">these graphs</a> show what they mean, to anyone who don't understand the explanations elsewhere... I don't think stating the obvious is a "radical claim"? <a href="/wiki/User:Dagelf" title="User:Dagelf">Dagelf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dagelf" title="User talk:Dagelf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Dagelf-20240310002400-Phlsph7-20231128083600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:24, 10 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dagelf-20240310002400-Phlsph7-20231128083600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dagelf-20240310002400-Phlsph7-20231128083600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hob_Gadling-20231129110100-Kim_Bruning-20231128042700"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">When scientists describe something as a "statistical artifact," they are often implying a significant doubt about the validity of the observed phenomenon as a true effect.</q></dd> <dd>The article says, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities</q>. This is true even if that overestimation is caused by regression to the mean: very incompetent people cannot underestimate their competence because their competence is already at the bottom, so they can only judge it correctly or overestimate it, which, on average, means that they overestimate it. --<a href="/wiki/User:Hob_Gadling" title="User:Hob Gadling">Hob Gadling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hob_Gadling" title="User talk:Hob Gadling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Hob_Gadling-20231129110100-Kim_Bruning-20231128042700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:01, 29 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hob_Gadling-20231129110100-Kim_Bruning-20231128042700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hob_Gadling-20231129110100-Kim_Bruning-20231128042700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect&diff=1212672204&oldid=1212638810"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kim_Bruning-20240309013900-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"></span>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect&diff=1212672204&oldid=1212638810</a> So I picked up this edit by <a href="/wiki/User:Dagelf" title="User:Dagelf">User:Dagelf</a>, looks like some additional sources from The Usual Suspects. I think the consensus so far seems to be to put this under <i>statistics</i> for now, at least until/unless more scientists start to agree. <s>I'm not married to the wording there, except that the word 'autocorrelation' should probably in the article *somewhere* at least. </s> This group of statisticians did write a number of peer-reviewed articles on the topic, after all. </p><p>btw.. In general, I think it's appropriate to post a reasoning on the talk page if you're editing/reverting good-faith edits, where the reasoning might not be immediately obvious. Reverting with "This should be discussed[...]" is slightly ironic. ;-) --<a href="/wiki/User:Kim_Bruning" title="User:Kim Bruning">Kim Bruning</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kim_Bruning" title="User talk:Kim Bruning">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Kim_Bruning-20240309013900-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kim_Bruning-20240309013900-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kim_Bruning-20240309013900-DK_Effect_is_Simply_Autocorrelation"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kim_Bruning-20240309021900-Kim_Bruning-20240309013900"></span>Well, that was fun. I actually double-checked the citations, but none of the provided citations actually mentioned autocorrelation themselves. I've trimmed the remaining wording down to the minimum that the citations do support. And that's why one does double-check I guess. :-/ --<a href="/wiki/User:Kim_Bruning" title="User:Kim Bruning">Kim Bruning</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kim_Bruning" title="User talk:Kim Bruning">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Kim_Bruning-20240309021900-Kim_Bruning-20240309013900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:19, 9 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kim_Bruning-20240309021900-Kim_Bruning-20240309013900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kim_Bruning-20240309021900-Kim_Bruning-20240309013900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dagelf-20240309075100-Kim_Bruning-20240309021900"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Kim_Bruning" title="User:Kim Bruning">Kim Bruning</a> Oh boy. There was one I citation I misplaced, but found again. Will link it. <a href="/wiki/User:Dagelf" title="User:Dagelf">Dagelf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dagelf" title="User talk:Dagelf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Dagelf-20240309075100-Kim_Bruning-20240309021900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:51, 9 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dagelf-20240309075100-Kim_Bruning-20240309021900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dagelf-20240309075100-Kim_Bruning-20240309021900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kim_Bruning-20240309103500-Dagelf-20240309075100"></span>I shall await your refs wrt autocorrelation.</dd> <dd>By the way, <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect&diff=prev&oldid=1212725790">does NPOV really want to be anthropomorphized</a> that badly? Take it easy, the wiki will still be here tomorrow! --<a href="/wiki/User:Kim_Bruning" title="User:Kim Bruning">Kim Bruning</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Kim_Bruning" title="User talk:Kim Bruning">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Kim_Bruning-20240309103500-Dagelf-20240309075100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kim_Bruning-20240309103500-Dagelf-20240309075100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kim_Bruning-20240309103500-Dagelf-20240309075100"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chassin-20240626193200-Kim_Bruning-20240309021900"></span>I took Nuefer’s 2017 discussion of correlations to be the basis for the use of the term “autocorrelation” in the title of the article <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2022/04/08/the-dunning-kruger-effect-is-autocorrelation/">[2]</a> that started all this. It seemed correct to me and was the reason I thought it right to raise the issue in the first place. <a href="/wiki/User:Chassin" title="User:Chassin">Chassin</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chassin&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Chassin (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Chassin-20240626193200-Kim_Bruning-20240309021900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:32, 26 June 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chassin-20240626193200-Kim_Bruning-20240309021900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chassin-20240626193200-Kim_Bruning-20240309021900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><br/> </p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-Nuhfer2016-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink">^ <a href="#cite_ref-Nuhfer2016_1-0"><sup><i><b>a</b></i></sup></a> <a href="#cite_ref-Nuhfer2016_1-1"><sup><i><b>b</b></i></sup></a> <a href="#cite_ref-Nuhfer2016_1-2"><sup><i><b>c</b></i></sup></a></span> <span class="reference-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite id="CITEREFEdward_NuhferChristopher_CoganSteven_FleischerEric_Gaze2016" class="citation journal cs1">Edward Nuhfer; Christopher Cogan; Steven Fleischer; Eric Gaze; Karl Wirth (January 2016). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1188&context=numeracy">"Random Number Simulations Reveal How Random Noise Affects the Measurements and Graphical Portrayals of Self-Assessed Competency"</a>. <i>Numeracy: Advancing Education in Quantitative Literacy</i>. <b>9</b> (1). <a href="/wiki/Doi_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="Doi (identifier)">doi</a>:<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.5038%2F1936-4660.9.1.4">10.5038/1936-4660.9.1.4</a>. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/1936-4660">1936-4660</a>. <a href="/wiki/WDQ_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="WDQ (identifier)">Wikidata</a> <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q56566524" class="extiw" title="d:Q56566524">Q56566524</a>. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20231126220616/https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1188&context=numeracy">Archived</a> from the original on 26 November 2023.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Numeracy%3A+Advancing+Education+in+Quantitative+Literacy&rft.atitle=Random+Number+Simulations+Reveal+How+Random+Noise+Affects+the+Measurements+and+Graphical+Portrayals+of+Self-Assessed+Competency&rft.volume=9&rft.issue=1&rft.date=2016-01&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.5038%2F1936-4660.9.1.4&rft.issn=1936-4660&rft.au=Edward+Nuhfer&rft.au=Christopher+Cogan&rft.au=Steven+Fleischer&rft.au=Eric+Gaze&rft.au=Karl+Wirth&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fdigitalcommons.usf.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1188%26context%3Dnumeracy&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3ADunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-Nuhfer2017-2"><span class="mw-cite-backlink">^ <a href="#cite_ref-Nuhfer2017_2-0"><sup><i><b>a</b></i></sup></a> <a href="#cite_ref-Nuhfer2017_2-1"><sup><i><b>b</b></i></sup></a> <a href="#cite_ref-Nuhfer2017_2-2"><sup><i><b>c</b></i></sup></a></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFEdward_NuhferSteven_FleischerChristopher_CoganKarl_Wirth2017" class="citation journal cs1">Edward Nuhfer; Steven Fleischer; Christopher Cogan; Karl Wirth; Eric Gaze (January 2017). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1215&context=numeracy">"How Random Noise and a Graphical Convention Subverted Behavioral Scientists' Explanations of Self-Assessment Data: Numeracy Underlies Better Alternatives"</a>. <i>Numeracy: Advancing Education in Quantitative Literacy</i>. <b>10</b> (1). <a href="/wiki/Doi_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="Doi (identifier)">doi</a>:<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.5038%2F1936-4660.10.1.4">10.5038/1936-4660.10.1.4</a>. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/1936-4660">1936-4660</a>. <a href="/wiki/WDQ_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="WDQ (identifier)">Wikidata</a> <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q56566525" class="extiw" title="d:Q56566525">Q56566525</a>. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20231126220616/https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1215&context=numeracy">Archived</a> from the original on 26 November 2023.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Numeracy%3A+Advancing+Education+in+Quantitative+Literacy&rft.atitle=How+Random+Noise+and+a+Graphical+Convention+Subverted+Behavioral+Scientists%26%2339%3B+Explanations+of+Self-Assessment+Data%3A+Numeracy+Underlies+Better+Alternatives&rft.volume=10&rft.issue=1&rft.date=2017-01&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.5038%2F1936-4660.10.1.4&rft.issn=1936-4660&rft.au=Edward+Nuhfer&rft.au=Steven+Fleischer&rft.au=Christopher+Cogan&rft.au=Karl+Wirth&rft.au=Eric+Gaze&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fdigitalcommons.usf.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1215%26context%3Dnumeracy&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3ADunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-Gignac2020-3"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-Gignac2020_3-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFGilles_E._GignacMarcin_Zajenkowski2020" class="citation journal cs1">Gilles E. Gignac; Marcin Zajenkowski (May 2020). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.gwern.net/docs/iq/2020-gignac.pdf">"The Dunning-Kruger effect is (mostly) a statistical artefact: Valid approaches to testing the hypothesis with individual differences data"</a> <span class="cs1-format">(PDF)</span>. <i><a href="/wiki/Intelligence_(journal)" title="Intelligence (journal)">Intelligence</a></i>. <b>80</b>: 101449. <a href="/wiki/Doi_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="Doi (identifier)">doi</a>:<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.1016%2FJ.INTELL.2020.101449">10.1016/J.INTELL.2020.101449</a>. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/0160-2896">0160-2896</a>. <a href="/wiki/WDQ_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="WDQ (identifier)">Wikidata</a> <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q108932700" class="extiw" title="d:Q108932700">Q108932700</a>. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20230308230951/https://gwern.net/doc/iq/2020-gignac.pdf">Archived</a> <span class="cs1-format">(PDF)</span> from the original on 8 March 2023.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=Intelligence&rft.atitle=The+Dunning-Kruger+effect+is+%28mostly%29+a+statistical+artefact%3A+Valid+approaches+to+testing+the+hypothesis+with+individual+differences+data&rft.volume=80&rft.pages=101449&rft.date=2020-05&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1016%2FJ.INTELL.2020.101449&rft.issn=0160-2896&rft.au=Gilles+E.+Gignac&rft.au=Marcin+Zajenkowski&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gwern.net%2Fdocs%2Fiq%2F2020-gignac.pdf&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3ADunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect" class="Z3988"></span></span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Did_you_know_nomination" data-mw-thread-id="h-Did_you_know_nomination-20230824141900"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Did_you_know_nomination-20230824141900"></span>Did you know nomination<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Did_you_know_nomination-20230824141900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Did you know nomination"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <div style="background-color: #F3F9FF; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;"> <dl><dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bruxton-20230827151000-Did_you_know_nomination"></span>The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. <span style="color:red"><b>Please do not modify this page.</b></span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as <a class="mw-selflink selflink">this nomination's talk page</a>, <a class="mw-selflink selflink">the article's talk page</a> or <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know" title="Wikipedia talk:Did you know">Wikipedia talk:Did you know</a>), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. <b>No further edits should be made to this page</b>.</i></dd></dl> <p>The result was: <b>promoted</b> by <a href="/wiki/User:Bruxton" title="User:Bruxton">Bruxton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bruxton" title="User talk:Bruxton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Bruxton-20230827151000-Did_you_know_nomination" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:10, 27 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bruxton-20230827151000-Did_you_know_nomination"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bruxton-20230827151000-Did_you_know_nomination"></span><br/> </p><p><span></span> </p> <div class="dyk-nompage-links plainlinks"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20230824141900-Did_you_know_nomination"></span>( <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1129693374">.mw-parser-output .hlist dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul{margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt,.mw-parser-output .hlist li{margin:0;display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ul{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist .mw-empty-li{display:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dt::after{content:": "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li::after{content:" · ";font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li:last-child::after{content:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:first-child::before{content:" (";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:last-child::after{content:")";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol{counter-reset:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li{counter-increment:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li::before{content:" "counter(listitem)"\a0 "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li ol>li:first-child::before{content:" ("counter(listitem)"\a0 "}</style><div class="hlist inline"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3ADid_you_know_nominations%2FDunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect&action=edit">Comment</a> or <a href="/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect" title="Template:Did you know nominations/Dunning–Kruger effect">view</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect&action=history">Article history</a></li></ul></div> )</div> <ul><li>... that "the first rule of the <b><a href="/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect" title="Dunning–Kruger effect">Dunning–Kruger club</a></b> is you don't know you're in the Dunning-Kruger club"? <small>Source: <sup id="cite_ref-FOOTNOTEHoward2018[httpsbooksgooglecombooksid8IF8DwAAQBAJpgPA354_354]_4-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHoward2018[httpsbooksgooglecombooksid8IF8DwAAQBAJpgPA354_354]-4"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></small> <ul><li><b>ALT1</b>: ... that the metacognitive explanation of the <b><a href="/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect" title="Dunning–Kruger effect">Dunning–Kruger effect</a></b> states that low performers overestimate their skills because they are unable to recognize their incompetence? <small>Source: <sup id="cite_ref-FOOTNOTEDunning2011260–261_5-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDunning2011260–261-5"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-FOOTNOTEDuignan2023_6-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDuignan2023-6"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></small></li> <li><i>Reviewed</i>: <a href="/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/1948_Cotton_Bowl_Classic" title="Template:Did you know nominations/1948 Cotton Bowl Classic">Template:Did you know nominations/1948 Cotton Bowl Classic</a></li> <li><i>Comment</i>: ALT0 would a candidate for the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:QUIRKY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:QUIRKY">quirky hook</a>. If it does not work, ALT1 is the regular alternative.</li></ul></li></ul> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1232521257"><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239543626"><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-FOOTNOTEHoward2018[httpsbooksgooglecombooksid8IF8DwAAQBAJpgPA354_354]-4"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEHoward2018[httpsbooksgooglecombooksid8IF8DwAAQBAJpgPA354_354]_4-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><a href="#CITEREFHoward2018">Howard 2018</a>, p. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=8IF8DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA354">354</a>.<span class="error harv-error" style="display: none; font-size:100%"> sfn error: no target: CITEREFHoward2018 (<a href="/wiki/Category:Harv_and_Sfn_template_errors" title="Category:Harv and Sfn template errors">help</a>)</span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-FOOTNOTEDunning2011260–261-5"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEDunning2011260–261_5-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><a href="#CITEREFDunning2011">Dunning 2011</a>, pp. 260–261.<span class="error harv-error" style="display: none; font-size:100%"> sfn error: no target: CITEREFDunning2011 (<a href="/wiki/Category:Harv_and_Sfn_template_errors" title="Category:Harv and Sfn template errors">help</a>)</span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-FOOTNOTEDuignan2023-6"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEDuignan2023_6-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><a href="#CITEREFDuignan2023">Duignan 2023</a>.<span class="error harv-error" style="display: none; font-size:100%"> sfn error: no target: CITEREFDuignan2023 (<a href="/wiki/Category:Harv_and_Sfn_template_errors" title="Category:Harv and Sfn template errors">help</a>)</span></span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <p><b>Sources</b> </p> <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFDuignan2023" class="citation web cs1">Duignan, Brian (2023). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20211130065643/https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect">"Dunning–Kruger effect"</a>. <i>www.britannica.com</i>. Archived from <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect">the original</a> on 30 November 2021<span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">7 December</span> 2021</span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=unknown&rft.jtitle=www.britannica.com&rft.atitle=Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect&rft.date=2023&rft.aulast=Duignan&rft.aufirst=Brian&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.britannica.com%2Fscience%2FDunning-Kruger-effect&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3ADunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect" class="Z3988"></span></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFDunning2011" class="citation book cs1">Dunning, David (1 January 2011). "Chapter Five – The Dunning–Kruger Effect: On Being Ignorant of One's Own Ignorance". <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://psycnet.apa.org/doi/10.1016/B978-0-12-385522-0.00005-6"><i>Advances in Experimental Social Psychology</i></a>. Vol. 44. Academic Press. pp. 247–296. <a href="/wiki/Doi_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="Doi (identifier)">doi</a>:<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://doi.org/10.1016%2FB978-0-12-385522-0.00005-6">10.1016/B978-0-12-385522-0.00005-6</a>. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780123855220" title="Special:BookSources/9780123855220"><bdi>9780123855220</bdi></a><span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">20 December</span> 2021</span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Chapter+Five+%E2%80%93+The+Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger+Effect%3A+On+Being+Ignorant+of+One%27s+Own+Ignorance&rft.btitle=Advances+in+Experimental+Social+Psychology&rft.pages=247-296&rft.pub=Academic+Press&rft.date=2011-01-01&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1016%2FB978-0-12-385522-0.00005-6&rft.isbn=9780123855220&rft.aulast=Dunning&rft.aufirst=David&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fpsycnet.apa.org%2Fdoi%2F10.1016%2FB978-0-12-385522-0.00005-6&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3ADunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect" class="Z3988"></span></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFHoward2018" class="citation book cs1">Howard, Jonathan (28 November 2018). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=8IF8DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA354"><i>Cognitive Errors and Diagnostic Mistakes: A Case-Based Guide to Critical Thinking in Medicine</i></a>. Springer. p. 354. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-3-319-93224-8" title="Special:BookSources/978-3-319-93224-8"><bdi>978-3-319-93224-8</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Cognitive+Errors+and+Diagnostic+Mistakes%3A+A+Case-Based+Guide+to+Critical+Thinking+in+Medicine&rft.pages=354&rft.pub=Springer&rft.date=2018-11-28&rft.isbn=978-3-319-93224-8&rft.aulast=Howard&rft.aufirst=Jonathan&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3D8IF8DwAAQBAJ%26pg%3DPA354&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3ADunning%E2%80%93Kruger+effect" class="Z3988"></span></li></ul> <p><small>Improved to Good Article status by <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>). Self-nominated at <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20230824141900-Did_you_know_nomination" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:19, 24 August 2023 (UTC)</a>. Post-promotion hook changes for this nom <a href="/wiki/User:GalliumBot#darn" title="User:GalliumBot">will be logged</a> at <a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Did_you_know_nominations/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Template talk:Did you know nominations/Dunning–Kruger effect (page does not exist)">Template talk:Did you know nominations/Dunning–Kruger effect</a>; consider <a href="/wiki/Help:Watchlist" title="Help:Watchlist">watching</a> this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.</small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20230824141900-Did_you_know_nomination"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20230824141900-Did_you_know_nomination"></span> </p> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" border="1" style="border-collapse:collapse;"> <tbody><tr> <th style="font-weight:normal;"><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Epicgenius-20230825143800-Did_you_know_nomination"></span>General:</b> Article is new enough and long enough </th></tr> <tr> <td> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Did_you_know#New" title="Wikipedia:Did you know">New enough</a>: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Yes" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Did_you_know#Long_enough" title="Wikipedia:Did you know">Long enough</a>: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Yes" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></li></ul> </td></tr></tbody></table> <p><b>Policy compliance:</b> </p> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources" title="Wikipedia:Citing sources">Adequate sourcing</a>: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Yes" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">Neutral</a>: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Yes" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></li> <li>Free of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyright_violations" title="Wikipedia:Copyright violations">copyright violations</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Plagiarism" title="Wikipedia:Plagiarism">plagiarism</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Close_paraphrasing" title="Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing">close paraphrasing</a>: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="No" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/13px-Red_x.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/20px-Red_x.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/26px-Red_x.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> - Yes, only significant matches are from Wikipedia mirrors and quotes.</li></ul> <table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" border="1" style="border-collapse:collapse;"> <tbody><tr> <th style="font-weight:normal;"><b>Hook:</b> Hook has been verified by provided inline citation </th></tr> <tr> <td> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Did_you_know#Cited_hook" title="Wikipedia:Did you know">Cited</a>: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Yes" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></li> <li>Interesting: <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Yes" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></li></ul> </td></tr></tbody></table> <table border="1" style="border-collapse:collapse;"> <tbody><tr> <td><b>QPQ</b>: Done. </td></tr></tbody></table> <p><b>Overall</b>: <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_confirmed.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Symbol_confirmed.svg/16px-Symbol_confirmed.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Symbol_confirmed.svg/24px-Symbol_confirmed.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Symbol_confirmed.svg/32px-Symbol_confirmed.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span> <a href="/wiki/User:Epicgenius" title="User:Epicgenius">Epicgenius</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Epicgenius" title="User talk:Epicgenius">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Epicgenius-20230825143800-Did_you_know_nomination" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Epicgenius-20230825143800-Did_you_know_nomination"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Epicgenius-20230825143800-Did_you_know_nomination"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20230826084600-Epicgenius-20230825143800"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Epicgenius" title="User:Epicgenius">Epicgenius</a>:</span> There is currently a <a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#To_quip_or_not_to_quip">discussion on the talkpage</a> about whether the line from ALT0 should be included in the article. If it is removed then we would not able to use ALT0 and we would need to default to ALT1. I suggest that we put the nomination on hold until this issue is resolved. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20230826084600-Epicgenius-20230825143800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:46, 26 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20230826084600-Epicgenius-20230825143800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20230826084600-Epicgenius-20230825143800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lightburst-20230826152800-Phlsph7-20230826084600"></span>It was a clever hook (ALT0) but it is not apparent in the article so I will promote ALT1. But ALT1 checks out and is interesting and verifiable. I see Earwig alerts to a direct copy of our article. <a href="/wiki/User:Lightburst" title="User:Lightburst">Lightburst</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lightburst" title="User talk:Lightburst">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Lightburst-20230826152800-Phlsph7-20230826084600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:28, 26 August 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lightburst-20230826152800-Phlsph7-20230826084600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lightburst-20230826152800-Phlsph7-20230826084600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Darwin_quote" data-mw-thread-id="h-Darwin_quote-20240804115100"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Darwin_quote-20240804115100"></span>Darwin quote<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Darwin_quote-20240804115100"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Darwin quote"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chumpih-20240804115100-Darwin_quote"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a>, I see you <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect&diff=prev&oldid=1238508205">removed</a> a Darwin quote with comment 'not the right place for quotes'. I feel the quote is relevant, since it shares key concepts with the article. Is there a better place within the article for its inclusion? <a href="/wiki/User:Chumpih" title="User:Chumpih"><span style="text-shadow: 2px 2.5px 3px #448811bb">Chumpih</span></a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chumpih" title="User talk:Chumpih">t</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Chumpih-20240804115100-Darwin_quote" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:51, 4 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chumpih-20240804115100-Darwin_quote"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chumpih-20240804115100-Darwin_quote"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20240804124900-Chumpih-20240804115100"></span>Hello <a href="/wiki/User:Chumpih" title="User:Chumpih">Chumpih</a> and thanks for your suggestion. I agree that the quote has some relevance. Maybe it could fit into the section "Practical significance" because it applies the topic to science. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20240804124900-Chumpih-20240804115100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:49, 4 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20240804124900-Chumpih-20240804115100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20240804124900-Chumpih-20240804115100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chumpih-20240804125600-Phlsph7-20240804124900"></span>Done. Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Chumpih" title="User:Chumpih"><span style="text-shadow: 2px 2.5px 3px #448811bb">Chumpih</span></a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chumpih" title="User talk:Chumpih">t</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Chumpih-20240804125600-Phlsph7-20240804124900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:56, 4 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chumpih-20240804125600-Phlsph7-20240804124900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chumpih-20240804125600-Phlsph7-20240804124900"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hob_Gadling-20241121115900-Chumpih-20240804115100"></span>Since Darwin (obviously) does not mention Dunning-Kruger explicitly, adding the quote is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a> and does not belong. --<a href="/wiki/User:Hob_Gadling" title="User:Hob Gadling">Hob Gadling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hob_Gadling" title="User talk:Hob Gadling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Hob_Gadling-20241121115900-Chumpih-20240804115100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:59, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hob_Gadling-20241121115900-Chumpih-20240804115100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hob_Gadling-20241121115900-Chumpih-20240804115100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Constant314-20241121120500-Hob_Gadling-20241121115900"></span>I agree. There is no reason to think that Darwin is talking about a general effect. It could just be a rebuke to his detractors. The quote should be removed. <a href="/wiki/User:Constant314" title="User:Constant314"><b style="color: #4400bb;"><i>Constant314</i></b></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Constant314" title="User talk:Constant314">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Constant314-20241121120500-Hob_Gadling-20241121115900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Constant314-20241121120500-Hob_Gadling-20241121115900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Constant314-20241121120500-Hob_Gadling-20241121115900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20241122123600-Constant314-20241121120500"></span>I also quite like <a href="/wiki/Bertrand_Russel" class="mw-redirect" title="Bertrand Russel">Bertrand Russel</a>'s quote: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.</q></dd> <dd>While I did insert the Darwin quote after seeing it and thinking "that's just like D-K", to paraphrase <a href="/wiki/Chuck_D" title="Chuck D">Chuck D</a>, I'm pretty sure that thought was thought before. And digging round just now, I found this:<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://alittlebithuman.com/when-you-dont-know-what-you-dont-know-the-dunning-kruger-effect/">[3]</a>, amongst others, which demonstrates that comparing D-K to Darwin's quote is not so <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a> original. Not everyone dislikes the quote. So the question is: how best to best present the info? Perhaps we could have another section on <i>Actually, D-K had precedents ...</i>, with a few other references, per that source and others? Perhaps as a sub-section of <a href="/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect#Practical_significance" class="mw-redirect" title="Dunning-Kruger effect">Dunning-Kruger effect#Practical significance</a>? <a href="/wiki/User:Chumpih" title="User:Chumpih"><span style="text-shadow: 2px 2.5px 3px #448811bb">Chumpih</span></a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chumpih" title="User talk:Chumpih">t</a></sup> 22:12, 21+22 November 2024 (UTC) <dl><dd>A full section or subsection is probably too much. We could add a sentence to the section; maybe something along the lines: <span style="color:green;">Historical precursors of the Dunning–Kruger effect were expressed by theorists such as Charles Darwin ("Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge") and Bertrand Russell ("The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts").</span> But we would need high-quality sources that they are actually considered precursors. The website "alittlebithuman.com" is not a good source and does not mention Russell. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20241122123600-Constant314-20241121120500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20241122123600-Constant314-20241121120500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20241122123600-Constant314-20241121120500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hob_Gadling-20241122131600-Phlsph7-20241122123600"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">we would need high-quality sources</q> That is the point. A <b>Wikipedia editor</b> reading a Darwin or Russell quote and thinking "that's just like D-K" is not enough for inclusion in the article. We need a <b>reliable source</b> reading a Darwin or Russell quote and thinking "that's just like D-K". Chumpih should re-read <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Hob_Gadling" title="User:Hob Gadling">Hob Gadling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hob_Gadling" title="User talk:Hob Gadling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Hob_Gadling-20241122131600-Phlsph7-20241122123600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:16, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hob_Gadling-20241122131600-Phlsph7-20241122123600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hob_Gadling-20241122131600-Phlsph7-20241122123600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chumpih-20241122182300-Hob_Gadling-20241122131600"></span>Totally agree re. credible source. I'd like to think this is doable. Aside from the above <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://alittlebithuman.com/when-you-dont-know-what-you-dont-know-the-dunning-kruger-effect/">[4]</a>, there's <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://psychologyfanatic.com/dunning-kruger-effect/?utm_source=chatgpt.com">[5]</a>, and both are far from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RSP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RSP">WP:RSP</a>, this isn't a particularly contentious thing: we need to avoid <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYNTH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYNTH">WP:SYNTH</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a>. And yes, a (sub)section is probably overkill. I quite like the suggested words from Phlsph7, but where's the ideal place to put them? <a href="/wiki/User:Chumpih" title="User:Chumpih"><span style="text-shadow: 2px 2.5px 3px #448811bb">Chumpih</span></a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chumpih" title="User talk:Chumpih">t</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Chumpih-20241122182300-Hob_Gadling-20241122131600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:23, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chumpih-20241122182300-Hob_Gadling-20241122131600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chumpih-20241122182300-Hob_Gadling-20241122131600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hob_Gadling-20241123080300-Chumpih-20241122182300"></span>The ideal place to put them is not in the article. Send them to a reliable source, and if they are published, then they can go in the article, quoting that reliable source. Why is that so difficult? --<a href="/wiki/User:Hob_Gadling" title="User:Hob Gadling">Hob Gadling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hob_Gadling" title="User talk:Hob Gadling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Hob_Gadling-20241123080300-Chumpih-20241122182300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:03, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hob_Gadling-20241123080300-Chumpih-20241122182300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hob_Gadling-20241123080300-Chumpih-20241122182300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chumpih-20241123092300-Hob_Gadling-20241123080300"></span>This one <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.sciencealert.com/what-is-the-dunning-kruger-effect">[6]</a> appears also to be <a href="/wiki/Churnalism" title="Churnalism">churnalism</a>. Clearly multiple sources have identified these precursors to D-K, but none of them so far appear particularly <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a>. Would we be viable to state as much? <a href="/wiki/User:Chumpih" title="User:Chumpih"><span style="text-shadow: 2px 2.5px 3px #448811bb">Chumpih</span></a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chumpih" title="User talk:Chumpih">t</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Chumpih-20241123092300-Hob_Gadling-20241123080300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chumpih-20241123092300-Hob_Gadling-20241123080300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chumpih-20241123092300-Hob_Gadling-20241123080300"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20241123090700-Chumpih-20241122182300"></span>I don't think psychologyfanatic.com is a reliable source either. There is a lot of misinformation about the DKE out there, so we should rely on academic sources like peer-reviewed journals. I removed the quote for now until the sourcing issue is resolved. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20241123090700-Chumpih-20241122182300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20241123090700-Chumpih-20241122182300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20241123090700-Chumpih-20241122182300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chumpih-20241123093300-Phlsph7-20241123090700"></span>Bingo! Via Google Scholar: <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/bies.201200182">[7]</a> and <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://text.psychologon.cz/403-dunning-kruger-effect-why-once-a-fool-always-a-fool.pdf">[8]</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Chumpih" title="User:Chumpih"><span style="text-shadow: 2px 2.5px 3px #448811bb">Chumpih</span></a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chumpih" title="User talk:Chumpih">t</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Chumpih-20241123093300-Phlsph7-20241123090700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:33, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chumpih-20241123093300-Phlsph7-20241123090700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chumpih-20241123093300-Phlsph7-20241123090700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Hob_Gadling-20241123130500-Chumpih-20241123093300"></span>+1 --<a href="/wiki/User:Hob_Gadling" title="User:Hob Gadling">Hob Gadling</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hob_Gadling" title="User talk:Hob Gadling">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Hob_Gadling-20241123130500-Chumpih-20241123093300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Hob_Gadling-20241123130500-Chumpih-20241123093300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Hob_Gadling-20241123130500-Chumpih-20241123093300"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20241123142400-Chumpih-20241123093300"></span>Thanks for looking up the sources. I added a modified version of the suggestion above to the section "Practical significance". It's not the ideal place but it's probably better than the alternatives. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20241123142400-Chumpih-20241123093300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20241123142400-Chumpih-20241123093300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20241123142400-Chumpih-20241123093300"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="edit_of_21_November_2024" data-mw-thread-id="h-edit_of_21_November_2024-20241121074900"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-edit_of_21_November_2024-20241121074900"></span>edit of 21 November 2024<span data-mw-comment-end="h-edit_of_21_November_2024-20241121074900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: edit of 21 November 2024"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fabrickator-20241121074900-edit_of_21_November_2024"></span>@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Metatrain&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Metatrain (page does not exist)">Metatrain</a>:</span> This is in regard to <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1257676526/1258715618" title="Special:Diff/1257676526/1258715618">your edit of 21 November 2024</a>. </p><p>Speaking generally about this edit, I don't see a meaningful improvement. </p><p>My suggestion is that you self-revert this edit, then present one or two portions of the proposed edit, thereby allowing editors to focus on how those couple of changes improve the article (or not). Following a resolution of those first couple of bits, rinse and repeat with the remaining portions of the proposed changes. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fabrickator&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Fabrickator (page does not exist)">Fabrickator</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fabrickator" title="User talk:Fabrickator">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Fabrickator-20241121074900-edit_of_21_November_2024" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fabrickator-20241121074900-edit_of_21_November_2024"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fabrickator-20241121074900-edit_of_21_November_2024"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Metatrain-20241121080900-Fabrickator-20241121074900"></span>It's a meaningful improvement in several ways, not least of which being that the previous version was poorly written. Did you write it? Is that why you're defending it?</dd> <dd>Here are just a few examples:</dd> <dd>1) Previous version: "A different interpretation is further removed from the psychological level and sees the Dunning–Kruger effect as mainly a statistical artifact."</dd> <dd>"A different interpretation is further removed from the psychological level" is a grammatically clunky, somewhat incoherent mess. That's why I edited it into something more well-written and sensical:</dd> <dd>Current version: "Some researchers have argued that the Dunning–Kruger Effect is actually a statistical artifact rather than a psychological phenomenon."</dd> <dd>This is objectively better. "Some" is also an important qualifier here because the "statistical artifact" argument is currently a minority position (by far) within the prevailing DKE literature.</dd> <dd>2) The previous explanation of "regression to the mean" is incoherent and does not give an accurate portrayal of the phenomena nor does it explain its direct relevance to the DKE (at least in the way that Gignac & Zajenkowski see it in their paper). So, I rewrote it to be a more accurate and grammatically sensical explanation and I also provided an example that demonstrates its direct relevance to the DKE. Again, this is objectively better than the previous version.</dd> <dd>3) Previous version: "Most researchers acknowledge that regression toward the mean is a relevant statistical effect that must be taken into account when interpreting the empirical findings."</dd> <dd>Really? "Most researchers" acknowledge that? Was there a poll taken of all researchers at some point asking them this exact question and I missed it? No. The quoted passage above is misleading, unfalsifiable, and is a dubious claim made without any supporting evidence offered. It's also, again, grammatically sloppy. So, I rewrote it so that it is worded more professionally and does not contain any factually misleading, unfalsifiable statements. Again, this is objectively better than the previous version.</dd> <dd>Current version: "Some researchers have cautioned that, for Dunning-Kruger Effects to be valid, regression toward the mean should be ruled out as an explanation when interpreting results." <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Metatrain&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Metatrain (page does not exist)">Metatrain</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Metatrain" title="User talk:Metatrain">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Metatrain-20241121080900-Fabrickator-20241121074900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Metatrain-20241121080900-Fabrickator-20241121074900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Metatrain-20241121080900-Fabrickator-20241121074900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phlsph7-20241121095600-Metatrain-20241121080900"></span>Hello <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Metatrain&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Metatrain (page does not exist)">Metatrain</a> and thanks for your suggestion. I restored the previous version for now since it's not clear that your suggestion constitutes an overall improvement. For example, some claims you introduced are false, like the claim that <span style="color:green;">most respond that their IQ is higher than 100 despite this being a statistical impossibility.</span> This is not statistically impossible: if you ask three people, and they respond with 110, 110, and 80, you have an average of 100 and most people think they are higher than 100. I agree with <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Fabrickator&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Fabrickator (page does not exist)">Fabrickator</a>: it might be better to address your improvement suggestions one point at a time instead of rewriting everything in one go.</dd> <dd>Concerning the points you raised <ol><li>The typical form of the statistical explanation does not deny that psychological phenomena are involved, like the better than average effect, which is a psychological bias. We can try to find a different formulation if you don't like the current one, but this should be formulated carefully.</li> <li>I don't think the previous expression of the regression toward the mean is incoherent and inaccurate and you have not explained why you think this. The text also connects the regression toward the mean with the DK effect, so I'm not sure why you say that it fails to do so.</li> <li>This is based on Dunning 2011 and McIntosh et al. 2019. They explain how considerations about the regression toward the mean are normally taken into account. I don't think the current formulation implies that there was a poll among DK effect researchers. In principle, I'm not opposed to a reformulation. A refomulation should keep the original meaning, which is not the case for your suggested reformulation. <a href="/wiki/User:Phlsph7" title="User:Phlsph7">Phlsph7</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Phlsph7" title="User talk:Phlsph7">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#c-Phlsph7-20241121095600-Metatrain-20241121080900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phlsph7-20241121095600-Metatrain-20241121080900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phlsph7-20241121095600-Metatrain-20241121080900"></span></li></ol></dd></dl></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; 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