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src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Flag_of_California.svg/32px-Flag_of_California.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Flag_of_California.svg/48px-Flag_of_California.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Flag_of_California.svg/64px-Flag_of_California.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:California" title="Portal:California">California portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_California" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject California">WikiProject California</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the <a href="/wiki/U.S._state" title="U.S. state">U.S. state</a> of <b><a href="/wiki/California" title="California">California</a></b> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_California" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject California">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">California</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject California</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject California</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">California articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-mid"><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_California_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance California articles">Mid</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Mid-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_California/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject California/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr><tr><td><figure 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href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg/35px-River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg" decoding="async" width="35" height="24" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg/53px-River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg/70px-River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg 2x" data-file-width="640" data-file-height="430"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Rivers" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Rivers">Rivers</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-mid">Mid‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg/80px-River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg" decoding="async" width="80" height="54" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg/120px-River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg/160px-River_Erme_at_Ivybridge_in_summer.jpg 2x" data-file-width="640" data-file-height="430"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link 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If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Rivers" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rivers">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Rivers</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Rivers</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Rivers</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">River articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-mid"><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_River_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance River articles">Mid</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Mid-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Rivers/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Rivers/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Arizona.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Flag_of_Arizona.svg/35px-Flag_of_Arizona.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Flag_of_Arizona.svg/53px-Flag_of_Arizona.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Flag_of_Arizona.svg/70px-Flag_of_Arizona.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Arizona" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Arizona">Arizona</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-low">Low‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Arizona.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Flag_of_Arizona.svg/80px-Flag_of_Arizona.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="53" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Flag_of_Arizona.svg/120px-Flag_of_Arizona.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Flag_of_Arizona.svg/160px-Flag_of_Arizona.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Flag_of_Arizona.svg/32px-Flag_of_Arizona.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Flag_of_Arizona.svg/48px-Flag_of_Arizona.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Flag_of_Arizona.svg/64px-Flag_of_Arizona.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Arizona" title="Portal:Arizona">Arizona portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Arizona" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Arizona">WikiProject Arizona</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the <a href="/wiki/U.S._state" title="U.S. state">U.S. state</a> of <b><a href="/wiki/Arizona" title="Arizona">Arizona</a></b> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Arizona" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Arizona">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Arizona</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Arizona</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Arizona</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Arizona articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-low"><a href="/wiki/Category:Low-importance_Arizona_articles" title="Category:Low-importance Arizona articles">Low</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Low-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Arizona/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Arizona/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"> <table id="archivebox" role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice mbox-small" style="text-align: center; padding: 1em;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="padding:0.6em 0 0.25em;"> <div style="width:100%; overflow:hidden;"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></a></span><br/><b>Archives</b></div> </td></tr><tr> <td class="plainlinks"> <table style="width: 100%; padding: 0px; text-align: center; background-color: transparent;"><tbody><tr><td><a href="/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal/Archive_1" title="Talk:All-American Canal/Archive 1">Archive 1</a></td></tr></tbody></table> </td> </tr><tr><td style="padding-bottom:11px"><div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-inputbox-input mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="22" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:All-American Canal/" name="prefix"/><br/><input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </td></tr> </tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><figure class="mw-halign-none" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:World_Map_Icon.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Map needed"><img alt="Map needed" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/World_Map_Icon.svg/64px-World_Map_Icon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="64" height="33" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/World_Map_Icon.svg/96px-World_Map_Icon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/World_Map_Icon.svg/128px-World_Map_Icon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="471" data-file-height="242"/></a><figcaption>Map needed</figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text">It is requested that a <b>map</b> or <b>maps</b> be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Uploading_images" title="Wikipedia:Uploading images">included</a> in this article to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_development" title="Wikipedia:Article development">improve its quality</a>.<br/> <b>Wikipedians in California</b> may be able to help!</td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Untitled" data-mw-thread-id="h-Untitled-2006-05-12T16:50:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Untitled-2006-05-12T16:50:00.000Z"></span>Untitled<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Untitled-2006-05-12T16:50:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:All-American_Canal&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Untitled"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Kukini-2006-05-12T16:50:00.000Z-Untitled"></span>Does anyone have a picture of this canal to post? It would really improve this article. <a href="/wiki/User:Kukini" title="User:Kukini">Kuki</a><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Esperanza" title="Wikipedia:Esperanza"><span style="color:green;">ni</span></a> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Hawaii.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Flag_of_Hawaii.svg/30px-Flag_of_Hawaii.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Flag_of_Hawaii.svg/45px-Flag_of_Hawaii.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Flag_of_Hawaii.svg/60px-Flag_of_Hawaii.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1200" data-file-height="600"/></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-Kukini-2006-05-12T16:50:00.000Z-Untitled" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Kukini-2006-05-12T16:50:00.000Z-Untitled"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Kukini-2006-05-12T16:50:00.000Z-Untitled"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Immigration_Debate" data-mw-thread-id="h-Immigration_Debate-2010-05-05T22:44:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Immigration_Debate-2010-05-05T22:44:00.000Z"></span>Immigration Debate<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Immigration_Debate-2010-05-05T22:44:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:All-American_Canal&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Immigration Debate"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arzel-2010-05-05T22:44:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate"></span>The source for the immigration debate specifically states that the people attempting to cross the canal are illegal immigrants. Making this statement is not a NPOV violation. Changing this statement is a violation of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYNTH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYNTH">WP:SYNTH</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Arzel" title="User:Arzel">Arzel</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arzel" title="User talk:Arzel">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-Arzel-2010-05-05T22:44:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:44, 5 May 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arzel-2010-05-05T22:44:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arzel-2010-05-05T22:44:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NortyNort-2010-05-06T01:45:00.000Z-Arzel-2010-05-05T22:44:00.000Z"></span>I agree. I also understand why Mexico was taken out because it wasn't mentioned in the source. Obviously, they are probably coming from Mexico, although all probably not Mexican. --<a href="/wiki/User:NortyNort" title="User:NortyNort">NortyNort</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NortyNort" title="User talk:NortyNort">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-NortyNort-2010-05-06T01:45:00.000Z-Arzel-2010-05-05T22:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:45, 6 May 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NortyNort-2010-05-06T01:45:00.000Z-Arzel-2010-05-05T22:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NortyNort-2010-05-06T01:45:00.000Z-Arzel-2010-05-05T22:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tillman-2010-05-14T04:52:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate"></span>Our article currently reads:</li></ul> <p>"Advocates <i>representing the illegal immigrant community</i> [emphasis added] have promoted the idea of stringing safety <a href="/wiki/Rope" title="Rope">ropes</a> across the canal for those attempting to swim across to hang on and prevent drowning... </p><p>I think we need a cite for this wording, or better wording. I shortened the phrase to Advocates, but was reverted, with the reasonable quetion, advocates for who? Thoughts? TIA, <a href="/wiki/User:Tillman" title="User:Tillman">Pete Tillman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tillman" title="User talk:Tillman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-Tillman-2010-05-14T04:52:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:52, 14 May 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tillman-2010-05-14T04:52:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tillman-2010-05-14T04:52:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Victor_Victoria-2010-06-06T12:55:00.000Z-Tillman-2010-05-14T04:52:00.000Z"></span>Agree. The advocates are not necessarily advocating for illegal immigrants. They are advocating for making the canal less dangerous. In addition, the people who die in the canal are not YET illegal immigrants. They are in the <i>process</i> of immigrating to the US (yes, illegally), hence it's incorrect to call the victims illegal immigrants. <a href="/wiki/User:Victor_Victoria" title="User:Victor Victoria">Victor Victoria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Victor_Victoria" title="User talk:Victor Victoria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-Victor_Victoria-2010-06-06T12:55:00.000Z-Tillman-2010-05-14T04:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:55, 6 June 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Victor_Victoria-2010-06-06T12:55:00.000Z-Tillman-2010-05-14T04:52:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Victor_Victoria-2010-06-06T12:55:00.000Z-Tillman-2010-05-14T04:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NortyNort-2010-06-06T13:26:00.000Z-Tillman-2010-05-14T04:52:00.000Z"></span>So, based off <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B3GGIC_en___US343&defl=en&q=define:Illegal+immigrant&sa=X&ei=waALTKa_L4WKlwfDmLykDg&ved=0CBYQkAE">of these definitions of illegal immigration</a> (including one from Wiki), I don't understand how crossing into California without going through customs and getting papers exempts you from being illegal. What threshold is there? You have to be at your destination? Maybe "illegal alien" is a better term based off of <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B3GGIC_en___US343&q=define%3AIllegal+alien&btnG=Search">these definitions</a>. I know people don't like the word alien. Nevertheless, the people are illegal once they cross the border. I don't see any other way to describe it. It is what it is and is what the source cited.--<a href="/wiki/User:NortyNort" title="User:NortyNort">NortyNort</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NortyNort" title="User talk:NortyNort">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-NortyNort-2010-06-06T13:26:00.000Z-Tillman-2010-05-14T04:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:26, 6 June 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NortyNort-2010-06-06T13:26:00.000Z-Tillman-2010-05-14T04:52:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NortyNort-2010-06-06T13:26:00.000Z-Tillman-2010-05-14T04:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Victor_Victoria-2010-06-06T14:13:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate"></span>Until they reach their final destinations they are still in the process of immigrating. Is it really not clear? <a href="/wiki/User:Victor_Victoria" title="User:Victor Victoria">Victor Victoria</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Victor_Victoria" title="User talk:Victor Victoria">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-Victor_Victoria-2010-06-06T14:13:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:13, 6 June 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Victor_Victoria-2010-06-06T14:13:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Victor_Victoria-2010-06-06T14:13:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-12.170.233.92-2010-06-08T21:45:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate"></span>You're arguing semantics, once they cross the border and are in the united states the are illegal immigrants (aliens, etc). <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/12.170.233.92" title="Special:Contributions/12.170.233.92">12.170.233.92</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:12.170.233.92" title="User talk:12.170.233.92">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-12.170.233.92-2010-06-08T21:45:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:45, 8 June 2010 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-12.170.233.92-2010-06-08T21:45:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-12.170.233.92-2010-06-08T21:45:00.000Z-Immigration_Debate"></span> </p> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-NortyNort-2010-06-07T11:27:00.000Z-12.170.233.92-2010-06-08T21:45:00.000Z"></span>I'm satisfied with the current wording, thanks.</li></ul> <p>From the NASA satphoto, it does appear that the AAC actually passes into Mexico -- see <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/37000/37078/ISS018-E-24949_lrg.jpg">this larger version</a>. [Rummages in paper map file]. The 4-lane hwy is I-8, as I surmised, and my old AAA map of BCN shows the AAC stays in the US, if just barely. The canal may be on the actual boundary (or very close to it) for a short distance just W of this photo. So I guess the swimmers (and/or sinkers) are only "slightly" immigrants at that point. Sounds like a case for the Coast Guard to me! Cheers, Pete Tillman 20:07, 6 June 2010 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Ok, read the definitions. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. Based off what Pete said though, I feel the current wording is a fair compromise.<a href="/wiki/User:NortyNort" title="User:NortyNort">NortyNort</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NortyNort" title="User talk:NortyNort">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-NortyNort-2010-06-07T11:27:00.000Z-12.170.233.92-2010-06-08T21:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:27, 7 June 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-NortyNort-2010-06-07T11:27:00.000Z-12.170.233.92-2010-06-08T21:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-NortyNort-2010-06-07T11:27:00.000Z-12.170.233.92-2010-06-08T21:45:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""Water_withdrawal_and_usage"_section" data-mw-thread-id="h-"Water_withdrawal_and_usage"_section-2011-04-06T18:46:00.000Z"><span id=".22Water_withdrawal_and_usage.22_section"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"Water_withdrawal_and_usage"_section-2011-04-06T18:46:00.000Z"></span>"Water withdrawal and usage" section<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"Water_withdrawal_and_usage"_section-2011-04-06T18:46:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:All-American_Canal&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: "Water withdrawal and usage" section"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LCE1506-2011-04-06T18:46:00.000Z-"Water_withdrawal_and_usage"_section"></span>This section contains much information about <i><b>U.S.</b></i> water usage, which: </p> <ul><li>is totally unsourced;</li> <li>refers to one figure and two tables, which are not supplied;</li> <li>is of scant relevance to the Canal.</li></ul> <p>I only fix little stuff. This needs an editor. --<a href="/wiki/User:LCE1506" title="User:LCE1506"><i><b>LCE</b></i></a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LCE1506" title="User talk:LCE1506">talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/LCE1506" title="Special:Contributions/LCE1506">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-LCE1506-2011-04-06T18:46:00.000Z-"Water_withdrawal_and_usage"_section" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:46, 6 April 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LCE1506-2011-04-06T18:46:00.000Z-"Water_withdrawal_and_usage"_section"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LCE1506-2011-04-06T18:46:00.000Z-"Water_withdrawal_and_usage"_section"></span> </p><p><br/> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Current_speed" data-mw-thread-id="h-Current_speed-2014-03-09T06:41:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Current_speed-2014-03-09T06:41:00.000Z"></span>Current speed<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Current_speed-2014-03-09T06:41:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:All-American_Canal&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Current speed"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-98.127.201.29-2014-03-09T06:41:00.000Z-Current_speed"></span>Please watch the 60 minutes source in the links and sources section. In this video the current in the canal is stated to move at 8 feet per second, rounding out to about 5.45 mph if you do the math. The figure of 30 mph is ridiculous, that's faster than the speed limit on many city streets. Trust me, current moving at 5.45 mph is still quite swift. Other reasons for the dangerous nature of the canal given in the segment include it's depth (20 feet or deeper in many places), cold water, and slippery sides that make escape very difficult. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/98.127.201.29" title="Special:Contributions/98.127.201.29">98.127.201.29</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:98.127.201.29" title="User talk:98.127.201.29">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-98.127.201.29-2014-03-09T06:41:00.000Z-Current_speed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:41, 9 March 2014 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-98.127.201.29-2014-03-09T06:41:00.000Z-Current_speed"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-98.127.201.29-2014-03-09T06:41:00.000Z-Current_speed"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-98.127.201.29-2014-03-09T06:49:00.000Z-Current_speed"></span>Undoing the edit is ludicrous because the 60 minutes segment CLEARLY states the reasons the canal is dangerous and gives a figure of the current moving 8 feet per second. In 60 seconds at 8 feet per second, one would travel 480 feet. So in one hour, one would travel 28,800 feet, or about 5.45 miles. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/98.127.201.29" title="Special:Contributions/98.127.201.29">98.127.201.29</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:98.127.201.29" title="User talk:98.127.201.29">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-98.127.201.29-2014-03-09T06:49:00.000Z-Current_speed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:49, 9 March 2014 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-98.127.201.29-2014-03-09T06:49:00.000Z-Current_speed"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-98.127.201.29-2014-03-09T06:49:00.000Z-Current_speed"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-174.29.219.160-2014-03-12T14:08:00.000Z-Current_speed"></span>I am confused as to why this edit keeps being reverted. Where is your source for the current in the canal moving at 30 mph? I provided my source for the current moving at 5.45 mph, and other reasons for the canal's danger being deep, cold water, and steep sides. In the 60 minutes segment. I have a source, you guys who are reverting my edit DO NOT! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/174.29.219.160" title="Special:Contributions/174.29.219.160">174.29.219.160</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:174.29.219.160" title="User talk:174.29.219.160">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-174.29.219.160-2014-03-12T14:08:00.000Z-Current_speed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:08, 12 March 2014 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-174.29.219.160-2014-03-12T14:08:00.000Z-Current_speed"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-174.29.219.160-2014-03-12T14:08:00.000Z-Current_speed"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""These_five_main_branches_of_the_canal"" data-mw-thread-id="h-"These_five_main_branches_of_the_canal"-2016-08-12T11:12:00.000Z"><span id=".22These_five_main_branches_of_the_canal.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"These_five_main_branches_of_the_canal"-2016-08-12T11:12:00.000Z"></span>"These five main branches of the canal"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"These_five_main_branches_of_the_canal"-2016-08-12T11:12:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:All-American_Canal&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: "These five main branches of the canal""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-אביהו-2016-08-12T11:12:00.000Z-"These_five_main_branches_of_the_canal""></span>I am confused, "The All-American Canal feeds, from east to west, the Coachella Canal, East Highline Canal, Central Main Canal, and the Westside Main Canal." I counted and counted again but came only with four. <a href="/wiki/User:%D7%90%D7%91%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95" title="User:אביהו">אביהו</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%D7%90%D7%91%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95" title="User talk:אביהו">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-אביהו-2016-08-12T11:12:00.000Z-"These_five_main_branches_of_the_canal"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:12, 12 August 2016 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-אביהו-2016-08-12T11:12:00.000Z-"These_five_main_branches_of_the_canal""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-אביהו-2016-08-12T11:12:00.000Z-"These_five_main_branches_of_the_canal""></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="External_links_modified_(January_2018)" data-mw-thread-id="h-External_links_modified_(January_2018)-2018-01-23T03:57:00.000Z"><span id="External_links_modified_.28January_2018.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-External_links_modified_(January_2018)-2018-01-23T03:57:00.000Z"></span>External links modified (January 2018)<span data-mw-comment-end="h-External_links_modified_(January_2018)-2018-01-23T03:57:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:All-American_Canal&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: External links modified (January 2018)"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-InternetArchiveBot-2018-01-23T03:57:00.000Z-External_links_modified_(January_2018)"></span>Hello fellow Wikipedians, </p><p>I have just modified 2 external links on <a href="/wiki/All-American_Canal" title="All-American Canal">All-American Canal</a>. 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This message is updated dynamically through the template <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Source_check" title="Template:Source check">source check</a>}}</code> <small>(last update: 5 June 2024)</small>. </p> <ul><li>If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://iabot.wmcloud.org/index.php?page=reportfalsepositive">this tool</a>.</li> <li>If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://iabot.wmcloud.org/index.php?page=manageurlsingle">this tool</a>.</li></ul> <p>Cheers.—<a href="/wiki/User:InternetArchiveBot" title="User:InternetArchiveBot"><b><span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span></b></a> <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:InternetArchiveBot" title="User talk:InternetArchiveBot">Report bug</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-InternetArchiveBot-2018-01-23T03:57:00.000Z-External_links_modified_(January_2018)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:57, 23 January 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-InternetArchiveBot-2018-01-23T03:57:00.000Z-External_links_modified_(January_2018)"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-InternetArchiveBot-2018-01-23T03:57:00.000Z-External_links_modified_(January_2018)"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Illegal_immigrants_electing_to_cross?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Illegal_immigrants_electing_to_cross?-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z"><span id="Illegal_immigrants_electing_to_cross.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Illegal_immigrants_electing_to_cross?-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z"></span>Illegal immigrants electing to cross?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Illegal_immigrants_electing_to_cross?-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:All-American_Canal&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Illegal immigrants electing to cross?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z-Illegal_immigrants_electing_to_cross?"></span>Starting a section here so hopefully we can stop the edit war. Is there sourcing specifically calling those crossing illegal immigrants? <a href="/wiki/User:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User:ScottishFinnishRadish">ScottishFinnishRadish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z-Illegal_immigrants_electing_to_cross?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:40, 4 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z-Illegal_immigrants_electing_to_cross?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z-Illegal_immigrants_electing_to_cross?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:46:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z"></span>I would imagine many are. The article as written highlights a spike in drownings after improved border security in San Diego was implemented. Certainly legal immigrants would not be affected by those changes. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/155.52.187.2" title="Special:Contributions/155.52.187.2">155.52.187.2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:155.52.187.2#top" title="User talk:155.52.187.2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:46:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:46, 4 March 2021 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:46:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:46:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:49:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:46:00.000Z"></span>There are a lot of sources identifying the immigration across as illegal such as: <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-deadly-passage-of-the-all-american-canal/">CBS News</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.alexanderstreet.com/preview/work/bibliographic_entity%7Cvideo_work%7C2860923">60 Minutes</a>. Undocumented also shows up fairly often i.e. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/investigations/2016/07/06/border-bodies-california-mexico/85193162/">Desert Sun</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/border-patrol-agents-save-pregnant-woman-crossing-all-american-canal-el-centro/126311/">NBC San Diego</a>. Perhaps going with undocumented rather than illegal would be a decent compromise. It communicates the same information with a less loaded phrase? <a href="/wiki/User:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User:ScottishFinnishRadish">ScottishFinnishRadish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:49:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:49, 4 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:49:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:49:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:53:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:49:00.000Z"></span>Many articles call people who commit murder murderers. Likewise for robbers, etc. What do you propose to call someone who immigrates illegally? <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/155.52.187.2" title="Special:Contributions/155.52.187.2">155.52.187.2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:155.52.187.2#top" title="User talk:155.52.187.2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:53:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:53, 4 March 2021 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:53:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:49:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:53:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:49:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:57:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:53:00.000Z"></span>The current trend in reliable sources is to refer to such people as undocumented, rather than illegal. You don't refer to someone who is crossing the street illegally an illegal walker, you call them a jay walker. <a href="/wiki/User:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User:ScottishFinnishRadish">ScottishFinnishRadish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:57:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:57, 4 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:57:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:57:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T20:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T20:59:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z"></span>(edit conflict) <a href="/wiki/User:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User:ScottishFinnishRadish">ScottishFinnishRadish</a>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.cbs.com/shows/60_minutes/video/1483398898/the-all-american-canal/">CBS</a> described them as "mostly illegal immigrants" in 2010, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.kpbs.org/news/2009/dec/03/how-are-us-immigration-policies-contributing-borde/">PBS</a> as "undocumented". If more recent media specify the "type" of immigrant, they (most likely reflecting a shift in terminology) describe them as "undocumented" <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://eu.desertsun.com/story/news/investigations/2016/07/06/border-bodies-california-mexico/85193162/">[1]</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/border-patrol-agents-save-pregnant-woman-crossing-all-american-canal-el-centro/126311/">[2]</a>. I've found one <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/29768075?seq=1">academic source</a> calling them "undocumented". I'm sure there has been a discussion at some point on the project whether illegal immigrants should be called illegal immigrants ("nobody is illegal" and all that) if someone wants to bother looking.</dd> <dd>I have not found any source saying that they elect to cross. Besides, it would possibly be against <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a>: Do we ever do something consciously with out <i>electing</i> to do so? I don't "elect to" edit Wikipedia, I just do. To me, highlighting that they "elect to" seems like some political anti-immigration talking point, arguing that they should have known better or somehow deserve to die. <small>or perhaps I'm just a cynical and not assuming good faith...</small></dd> <dd>In any case, the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BRD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BRD">onus</a> is on the IP editor to justify their change. Best, <a href="/wiki/User:Caius_G." class="mw-redirect" title="User:Caius G.">Caius G.</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Caius_G." class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Caius G.">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T20:59:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:59, 4 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T20:59:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T20:59:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T20:40:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T21:05:00.000Z-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T20:59:00.000Z"></span>No, "illegal immigrant" is the term that has been historically used. Again, this construction is consistent with other articles. For the most part, an illegal immigrant is such because of choices they made. Calling them "undocumented" implies they did nothing wrong, which would be pov. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/155.52.187.2" title="Special:Contributions/155.52.187.2">155.52.187.2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:155.52.187.2#top" title="User talk:155.52.187.2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T21:05:00.000Z-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T20:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:05, 4 March 2021 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T21:05:00.000Z-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T20:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T21:05:00.000Z-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T20:59:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:19:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T21:05:00.000Z"></span>I wikilinked undocumented immigrant to Illegal Immigration to the US, so if somehow someone didn't know what an undocumented immigrant was a single click or hover-over will illuminate the topic for them. @<a href="/wiki/User:Caius_G." class="mw-redirect" title="User:Caius G.">Caius_G.</a> and 155.52.187.2, does this work for either of you? <a href="/wiki/User:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User:ScottishFinnishRadish">ScottishFinnishRadish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:19:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T21:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:19, 4 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:19:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T21:05:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:19:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T21:05:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User:ScottishFinnishRadish"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:31:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:19:00.000Z"></span>ScottishFinnishRadish</a>,<s> I'm not sure if "attempting to cross" (the border) is better than "travelling across" (or perhaps both don't work), given that the canal is on the US side of the border. Anyone drowning in it will have already crossed the border.</s><small>Overthinking it, this is probably fine.</small> Happy with "undocumented". Best, <a href="/wiki/User:Caius_G." class="mw-redirect" title="User:Caius G.">Caius G.</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Caius_G." class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Caius G.">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:31:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:31, 4 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:31:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:19:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:31:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:19:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:35:00.000Z-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:31:00.000Z"></span>Made a slight adjustment to the prose due to your concern. Decent? <a href="/wiki/User:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User:ScottishFinnishRadish">ScottishFinnishRadish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:35:00.000Z-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:35:00.000Z-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:35:00.000Z-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:31:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:37:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:35:00.000Z"></span>Good, thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Caius_G." class="mw-redirect" title="User:Caius G.">Caius G.</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Caius_G." class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Caius G.">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:37:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:37, 4 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:37:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:35:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:37:00.000Z-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:35:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:26:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T21:05:00.000Z"></span>Why is it relevant whether they did something wrong? It would be pov to consciously imply either, since we don't make moral judgments on this projects, but luckily neither "illegal" nor "undocumented" imply anything about "wrongness", as illegal≠wrong and "undocumented" is completely unrelated to this issue, hence why I prefer it (+ it is backed by more recent sources). <a href="/wiki/User:Caius_G." class="mw-redirect" title="User:Caius G.">Caius G.</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Caius_G." class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Caius G.">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:26:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T21:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:26, 4 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:26:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T21:05:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:26:00.000Z-155.52.187.2-2021-03-04T21:05:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:31:00.000Z-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:26:00.000Z"></span>I do think it's worth noting the status of the immigrants since it points to why they're crossing at a dangerous canal rather than a safer route. I personally don't care if it's undocumented or illegal, but generally sources have been trending more to undocumented, and almost everyone knows illegal and undocumented mean the same thing for immigration. Those that don't can click the wikilink. So I take it you're satisfied with the current wording? <a href="/wiki/User:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User:ScottishFinnishRadish">ScottishFinnishRadish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ScottishFinnishRadish" title="User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:All-American_Canal#c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:31:00.000Z-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:26:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:31, 4 March 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:31:00.000Z-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:26:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ScottishFinnishRadish-2021-03-04T21:31:00.000Z-Caius_G.-2021-03-04T21:26:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:All-American_Canal&oldid=1204719535">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:All-American_Canal&oldid=1204719535</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Start-Class_California_articles" title="Category:Start-Class California articles">Start-Class California articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_California_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance California articles">Mid-importance California articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Start-Class_Southern_California_articles" title="Category:Start-Class Southern California articles">Start-Class Southern California articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Unknown-importance_Southern_California_articles" title="Category:Unknown-importance Southern California articles">Unknown-importance Southern California articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Southern_California_task_force_articles" title="Category:Southern California task force articles">Southern California task force articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_California_articles" title="Category:WikiProject California articles">WikiProject California articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Start-Class_River_articles" title="Category:Start-Class River articles">Start-Class River articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_River_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance River articles">Mid-importance River articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Start-Class_Arizona_articles" title="Category:Start-Class Arizona articles">Start-Class Arizona articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Low-importance_Arizona_articles" title="Category:Low-importance Arizona articles">Low-importance Arizona articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Arizona_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Arizona articles">WikiProject Arizona articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_requested_maps_in_California" title="Category:Wikipedia requested maps in California">Wikipedia requested maps in California</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 7 February 2024, at 20:40<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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