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vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#English_wikipedia_but_some_terms_are_translated_to_Arabic_?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>English wikipedia but some terms are translated to Arabic ?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-English_wikipedia_but_some_terms_are_translated_to_Arabic_?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Use_of_Berber_rather_than_Amazigh" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Use_of_Berber_rather_than_Amazigh"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>Use of Berber rather than Amazigh</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Use_of_Berber_rather_than_Amazigh-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-List_of_Berber_people" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#List_of_Berber_people"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>List of Berber people</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-List_of_Berber_people-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Language_inclusion" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Language_inclusion"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Language inclusion</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Language_inclusion-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-18_November_2024" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#18_November_2024"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>18 November 2024</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">5 comments</span> <ul id="toc-18_November_2024-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-RfC_on_Infobox_languages." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#RfC_on_Infobox_languages."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>RfC on Infobox languages.</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">90 comments</span> <button aria-controls="toc-RfC_on_Infobox_languages.-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle RfC on Infobox languages. subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-RfC_on_Infobox_languages.-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Survey" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Survey"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7.1</span> <span>Survey</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Survey-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Discussion" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Discussion"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7.2</span> <span>Discussion</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Discussion-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-Let's_clarify_what_this_Rfc_is_about" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Let's_clarify_what_this_Rfc_is_about"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7.2.1</span> <span>Let's clarify what this Rfc is about</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Let's_clarify_what_this_Rfc_is_about-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Canvassing_inquiry" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Canvassing_inquiry"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7.2.2</span> <span>Canvassing inquiry</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Canvassing_inquiry-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-About_param_native_name" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-3"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#About_param_native_name"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7.2.3</span> <span>About param native_name</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-About_param_native_name-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <nav aria-label="Contents" class="vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-titlebar-toc 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<div id="contentSub"><div id="mw-content-subtitle"></div></div> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237879475">.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:#f8eaba;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-invalid-type{text-align:center}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 10%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;width:238px}}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.tmbox img{max-width:none!important}</style><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1230750088">.mw-parser-output .talkheader{text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-body{display:flex}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{display:flex;align-items:center;padding:0.1em}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help{flex:2 1 auto;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:var(--background-color-base,#ffffff);color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies+.talkheader-policies{border-left:1px solid #c0c090}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{flex:0 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts>*{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help ul,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies ul{margin:0.1em 0.8em 0 1.6em;text-align:left}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .talkheader{min-width:80%}}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice talkheader plainlinks" id="talkheader" style="border-collapse: separate;"><tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom: 1px solid #c0c090; font-weight: bold;">This is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines">talk page</a> for discussing improvements to the <a href="/wiki/Berbers" title="Berbers">Berbers</a> article.<br/> This is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#FORUM" title="Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not">not a forum</a> for general discussion of the article's subject.</td> </tr> <tr> <td> <div class="talkheader-body"> <div class="talkheader-help"> <ul><li>Put new text under old text. <strong><a href="/wiki/Special:NewSection/Talk:Berbers" title="Special:NewSection/Talk:Berbers">Click here to start a new topic.</a></strong></li> <li>New to Wikipedia? Welcome! <a href="/wiki/Help:Introduction" title="Help:Introduction">Learn to edit</a>; <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Questions" title="Wikipedia:Questions">get help</a>.</li></ul> </div> <div class="talkheader-policies"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith" title="Wikipedia:Assume good faith">Assume good faith</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility" title="Wikipedia:Civility">Be polite</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks" title="Wikipedia:No personal attacks">avoid personal attacks</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers" title="Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers">Be welcoming to newcomers</a></li> <li>Seek <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests" title="Wikipedia:Dispute resolution requests">dispute resolution</a> if needed</li></ul> </div><div class="talkheader-policies"> <div><b>Article policies</b> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">Neutral point of view</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research" title="Wikipedia:No original research">No original research</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability" title="Wikipedia:Verifiability">Verifiability</a></li></ul> </div> </div> </div> </td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><span class="plainlinks"><i>Find sources:</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?as_eq=wikipedia&q=%22Berbers%22">Google</a> (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&q=%22Berbers%22+-wikipedia">books</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=%22Berbers%22+-wikipedia&tbs=ar:1">news</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Berbers%22">scholar</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&tbs=sur:fmc&tbm=isch&q=%22Berbers%22+-site:wikipedia.org+-site:wikimedia.org">free images</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&cx=007734830908295939403%3Agalkqgoksq0&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3AWikipedia%2520Reference%2520Search&q=%22Berbers%22">WP refs</a>) <b>·</b> <span title="Free English newspaper sources" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Free_English_newspaper_sources">FENS</a></span> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Berbers%22&acc=on&wc=on">JSTOR</a> <b>·</b> <span title="The Wikipedia Library" style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/search/?q=%22Berbers%22">TWL</a></span></span></td></tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><b><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">Archives</a>:</b> <a href="/wiki/Talk:Berbers/Archive_1" title="Talk:Berbers/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Berbers/Archive_2" title="Talk:Berbers/Archive 2">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Berbers/Archive_3" title="Talk:Berbers/Archive 3">3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Berbers/Archive_4" title="Talk:Berbers/Archive 4">4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Berbers/Archive_5" title="Talk:Berbers/Archive 5">5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Berbers/Archive_6" title="Talk:Berbers/Archive 6">6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Berbers/Archive_7" title="Talk:Berbers/Archive 7">7</a><span style="position: relative; top: 2px; float: right; font-size: 90%; margin-left: 1em;"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1038841319">.mw-parser-output .tooltip-dotted{border-bottom:1px dotted;cursor:help}</style><span class="rt-commentedText tooltip tooltip-dotted" title="Discussions with timestamps are automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III after 90 days of inactivity when more than 5 threads are present.">Auto-archiving period</span>: <b>3 months</b> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page#Automated_archiving" title="Help:Archiving a talk page"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/16px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/24px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/32px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"/></a></span></span></td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 0;"><div> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:Berbers/" name="prefix"/> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </div></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <p class="mw-empty-elt"> </p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1135653291">@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .article-history{min-width:80%}}</style><table class="article-history tmbox tmbox-notice"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Former good article"><img alt="Former good article" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg/50px-Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg/75px-Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg/100px-Symbol_unsupport_vote.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><b>Berbers</b> was one of the <i><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_articles/Social_sciences_and_society" title="Wikipedia:Good articles/Social sciences and society">Social sciences and society good articles</a></b></i>, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_criteria" title="Wikipedia:Good article criteria">good article criteria</a>. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_nominations" title="Wikipedia:Good article nominations">renominated</a>. Editors may also seek a <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment" title="Wikipedia:Good article reassessment">reassessment</a></b> of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" style="width:100%"><table class="article-history-milestones" style="width:100%;font-size:90%"><tbody><tr><th colspan="3" style="font-size:110%">Article milestones</th></tr><tr style="text-align:left"><th>Date</th><th>Process</th><th>Result</th></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Berbers&oldid=99638608">January 10, 2007</a></span></td><td><b><a class="mw-selflink selflink">Good article nominee</a></b></td><td>Listed</td></tr><tr><td><span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Berbers&oldid=210650797">May 7, 2008</a></span></td><td><b><a class="mw-selflink selflink">Good article reassessment</a></b></td><td>Delisted</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">Current status: <b>Delisted good article</b></td></tr></tbody></table><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1243927654">.mw-parser-output .banner-shell{border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:4px}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-header{text-align:center;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{padding:2px 4px;background:#fffaef;color:inherit;border:1px dotted gray}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{background:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{background:#2e2505}}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell .tmbox{margin:2px 0;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell .tmbox.mbox-small{line-height:1.5em;font-size:100%}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner .banner-shell-outside{display:none}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .wpbs{width:80%}}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .assess{width:60px;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-header{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em 0.25em 0}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-header{display:table-row}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb:not(.mw-collapsed) .wpb-header-icon a{display:none}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice banner-shell wpbs mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><tbody><tr><td class="assess"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_c_class.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="C-Class article"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Symbol_c_class.svg/35px-Symbol_c_class.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="36" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Symbol_c_class.svg/53px-Symbol_c_class.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Symbol_c_class.svg/70px-Symbol_c_class.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span></td><td class="banner-shell-header" style="text-align:left;font-weight:normal">This <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg/16px-C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg/24px-C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg/32px-C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="215" data-file-height="215"/></span></span> <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/4/Society_and_social_sciences#Ethnic_groups" title="Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/4/Society and social sciences">level-4 vital article</a></b> is rated <b>C-class</b> on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.<br/>It is of interest to multiple <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject">WikiProjects</a>.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="banner-shell-inner outercollapse"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256394742">.mw-parser-output .wpb-header,.mw-parser-output .wpb-metadata,.mw-parser-output .wpb-iefix{display:none}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-name{text-align:right;padding:0.3em 1em 0.3em 0.3em;width:50%;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-assessment{text-align:left;width:50%;padding:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-combined{text-align:left;padding:0.3em 0.3em 0.3em 0;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-bubbles{border-radius:.5em;padding:0 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.class-unassessed{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .conflict{border:0.2em solid red}.mw-parser-output .inactive-wikiproject .wpb-header-bubbles{color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png/14px-Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png" decoding="async" width="14" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png/21px-Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png/28px-Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png 2x" data-file-width="800" data-file-height="1404"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups">Ethnic groups</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-high">High‑importance</span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles"><span class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File"><span title="This article is flagged as needing an independent reassessment or validation of its current rating."><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/30px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/40px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png/50px-Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="88" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png/75px-Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png/100px-Zuni-girl-with-jar2.png 2x" data-file-width="800" data-file-height="1404"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups">WikiProject Ethnic groups</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to <a href="/wiki/Ethnic_group" class="mw-redirect" title="Ethnic group">ethnic groups</a>, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Ethnic groups</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Ethnic groups</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Ethnic groups articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-high"><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_Ethnic_groups_articles" title="Category:High-importance Ethnic groups articles">High</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>High-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Yes_check.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Note icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/30px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/40px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is flagged as needing an independent reassessment or validation of its current rating.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" style="padding:0"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="background:transparent;width:100%"><tbody><tr><th style="text-align:left;padding:0.2em 2px 0.2em 0">WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:</th></tr><tr><td style="text-align:left;padding:5px;background-color:white;border:1px solid #c0c090;margin-top:5px"> <p><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Clipboard.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Clipboard.svg/35px-Clipboard.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="35" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Clipboard.svg/53px-Clipboard.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Clipboard.svg/70px-Clipboard.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></a></span> Here are some open <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups">WikiProject Ethnic groups</a> tasks: </p> <ul><li>Meta-tasks: <ul><li>Place the <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Ethnic_groups" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Ethnic groups">Ethnic groups</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> template <b>on the talk page</b> of articles within the scope of this project.</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups/Archive_11#How_does_Wikipedia_rate_the_.22importance.22_of_an_ethnic_group.3F" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Archive 11">Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups</a></li></ul></li> <li>Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Unassessed_Ethnic_groups_articles" title="Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles">Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Category:Ethnic_groups_articles_needing_merge_action" title="Category:Ethnic groups articles needing merge action">Category:Ethnic groups articles needing merge action</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Category:Ethnic_groups_articles_needing_infoboxes" title="Category:Ethnic groups articles needing infoboxes">Category:Ethnic groups articles needing infoboxes</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Category:Ethnic_groups_articles_needing_reassessment" title="Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment">Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Category:Ethnic_groups_articles_needing_attention" title="Category:Ethnic groups articles needing attention">Category:Ethnic groups articles needing attention</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Iyer" title="Iyer">Iyer</a></li> <li><b><a href="/wiki/Peruvian_people" class="mw-redirect" title="Peruvian people">Peruvian people</a></b></li></ul></li> <li>Start an article: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups/Article_requests" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests">Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests</a></li></ul></li></ul> <p>Feel free to <a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups_tasks" title="Template:WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks">edit this list</a> or <a href="/wiki/Template_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups_tasks" title="Template talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks">discuss these tasks</a>. </p> </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Berber_flag.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Berber_flag.svg/35px-Berber_flag.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Berber_flag.svg/53px-Berber_flag.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Berber_flag.svg/70px-Berber_flag.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Berbers" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Berbers">Berbers</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-top">Top‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Berber_flag.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Berber_flag.svg/70px-Berber_flag.svg.png" decoding="async" width="70" height="47" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Berber_flag.svg/105px-Berber_flag.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Berber_flag.svg/140px-Berber_flag.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Berbers" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Berbers">WikiProject Berbers</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Berbers" title="Berbers">Berbers</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Berbers" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Berbers">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Berbers</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Berbers</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Berbers</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Berbers articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-top"><a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Berbers_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Berbers articles">Top</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Top-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Berbers/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Berbers/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/21/Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg/22px-Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg" decoding="async" width="22" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/21/Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg/34px-Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/21/Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg/44px-Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg 2x" data-file-width="1624" data-file-height="1824"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Africa" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa">Africa</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Burkina_Faso" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Burkina Faso">Burkina Faso</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Libya" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Libya">Libya</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Mali" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Mali">Mali</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Mauritania" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Mauritania">Mauritania</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Niger" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Niger">Niger</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tunisia" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Tunisia">Tunisia</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Western_Sahara" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Western Sahara">Western Sahara</a></span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-top">Top‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/21/Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg/80px-Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg" decoding="async" width="80" height="90" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/21/Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg/120px-Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/21/Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg/160px-Africa_satellite_orthographic.jpg 2x" data-file-width="1624" data-file-height="1824"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239009302">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="map" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Africa_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/28px-Africa_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png" decoding="async" width="28" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Africa_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/42px-Africa_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Africa_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/56px-Africa_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="550" data-file-height="550"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Africa" title="Portal:Africa">Africa portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Africa" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa">WikiProject Africa</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Africa" title="Africa">Africa</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Africa" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Africa">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Africa</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Africa</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Africa articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-top"><a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Africa_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Africa articles">Top</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Top-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Africa/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" class="wpb-collapsed-notes"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><tbody><tr><th colspan="3" class="wpb-collapsed-head">Associated task forces:</th></tr><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-gutter" style="min-width:80px"><span class="wpb-iefix">/ </span></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Burkina_Faso.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Flag_of_Burkina_Faso.svg/38px-Flag_of_Burkina_Faso.svg.png" decoding="async" width="38" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Flag_of_Burkina_Faso.svg/57px-Flag_of_Burkina_Faso.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Flag_of_Burkina_Faso.svg/75px-Flag_of_Burkina_Faso.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Burkina_Faso" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Burkina Faso">WikiProject Burkina Faso</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Burkina_Faso_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Burkina Faso articles">Top-importance</a>).</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Libya.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Libya.svg/50px-Flag_of_Libya.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Libya.svg/76px-Flag_of_Libya.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Libya.svg/100px-Flag_of_Libya.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="960" data-file-height="480"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright" style="margin:0"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Libya.svg/32px-Flag_of_Libya.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Libya.svg/48px-Flag_of_Libya.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Libya.svg/64px-Flag_of_Libya.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="960" data-file-height="480"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Libya" title="Portal:Libya">Libya portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Libya" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Libya">WikiProject Libya</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Libya_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Libya articles">Top-importance</a>).</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Mali.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Flag_of_Mali.svg/38px-Flag_of_Mali.svg.png" decoding="async" width="38" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Flag_of_Mali.svg/57px-Flag_of_Mali.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Flag_of_Mali.svg/75px-Flag_of_Mali.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright" style="margin:0"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Flag_of_Mali.svg/32px-Flag_of_Mali.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Flag_of_Mali.svg/48px-Flag_of_Mali.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Flag_of_Mali.svg/64px-Flag_of_Mali.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Mali" title="Portal:Mali">Mali portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Mali" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Mali">WikiProject Mali</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Mali_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Mali articles">Top-importance</a>).</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Mauritania.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Flag_of_Mauritania.svg/38px-Flag_of_Mauritania.svg.png" decoding="async" width="38" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Flag_of_Mauritania.svg/57px-Flag_of_Mauritania.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Flag_of_Mauritania.svg/75px-Flag_of_Mauritania.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1200" data-file-height="800"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright" style="margin:0"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Flag_of_Mauritania.svg/32px-Flag_of_Mauritania.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Flag_of_Mauritania.svg/48px-Flag_of_Mauritania.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Flag_of_Mauritania.svg/64px-Flag_of_Mauritania.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1200" data-file-height="800"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Mauritania" title="Portal:Mauritania">Mauritania portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Mauritania" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Mauritania">WikiProject Mauritania</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Mauritania_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Mauritania articles">Top-importance</a>).</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Niger.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Flag_of_Niger.svg/29px-Flag_of_Niger.svg.png" decoding="async" width="29" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Flag_of_Niger.svg/44px-Flag_of_Niger.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Flag_of_Niger.svg/58px-Flag_of_Niger.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="700" data-file-height="600"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Niger" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Niger">WikiProject Niger</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_Niger_articles" title="Category:High-importance Niger articles">High-importance</a>).</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:WikiProject_tunisia.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/WikiProject_tunisia.svg/23px-WikiProject_tunisia.svg.png" decoding="async" width="23" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/WikiProject_tunisia.svg/34px-WikiProject_tunisia.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/WikiProject_tunisia.svg/45px-WikiProject_tunisia.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="150" data-file-height="166"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tunisia" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Tunisia">WikiProject Tunisia</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Tunisia_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Tunisia articles">Top-importance</a>).</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Flag_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic.svg/50px-Flag_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Flag_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic.svg/76px-Flag_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Flag_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic.svg/100px-Flag_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="300"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright" style="margin:0"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Flag_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic.svg/32px-Flag_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Flag_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic.svg/48px-Flag_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Flag_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic.svg/64px-Flag_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="300"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Western_Sahara" title="Portal:Western Sahara">Western Sahara portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Western_Sahara" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Western Sahara">WikiProject Western Sahara</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Western_Sahara_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Western Sahara articles">Top-importance</a>).</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span class="mw-image-border" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Morocco.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/35px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/53px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/70px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Morocco" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Morocco">Morocco</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-top">Top‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span class="mw-image-border" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Morocco.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/80px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="53" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/120px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/160px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/32px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/48px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Morocco.svg/64px-Flag_of_Morocco.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Morocco" title="Portal:Morocco">Morocco portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Morocco" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Morocco">WikiProject Morocco</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Morocco" title="Morocco">Morocco</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Morocco" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Morocco">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Morocco</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Morocco</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Morocco</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Morocco articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-top"><a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Morocco_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Morocco articles">Top</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Top-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Morocco/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Morocco/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" style="padding:0"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="background:transparent;width:100%"><tbody><tr><th style="text-align:left;padding:0.2em 2px 0.2em 0">Help expand the project:</th></tr><tr><td style="text-align:left;padding:5px;background-color:white;border:1px solid #c0c090;margin-top:5px"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1129693374">.mw-parser-output .hlist dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul{margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt,.mw-parser-output .hlist li{margin:0;display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist.inline ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist dl ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ol ul,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul dl,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ol,.mw-parser-output .hlist ul ul{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .hlist .mw-empty-li{display:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dt::after{content:": "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li::after{content:" · ";font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li:last-child::after{content:none}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:first-child::before{content:" (";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dd li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt li:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dd:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li dt:last-child::after,.mw-parser-output .hlist li li:last-child::after{content:")";font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol{counter-reset:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li{counter-increment:listitem}.mw-parser-output .hlist ol>li::before{content:" "counter(listitem)"\a0 "}.mw-parser-output .hlist dd ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist dt ol>li:first-child::before,.mw-parser-output .hlist li ol>li:first-child::before{content:" ("counter(listitem)"\a0 "}</style><div class="hlist plainlinks" style="text-align:center;font-size:90%;"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Morocco%2Fto_do&action=edit">edit</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Morocco%2Fto_do&action=history">history</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Morocco%2Fto_do&action=watch">watch</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Morocco%2Fto_do&action=purge">purge</a></li></ul> </div> <p><b>You can help! <span title="Arabic-language text"><span lang="ar" dir="rtl">يمكنكم أن تساهموا</span></span></b> <br/> </p> <table style="background:none;color:inherit;width:auto;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="vertical-align:top;"> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/50px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/75px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg/100px-Nuvola_apps_korganizer.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span><br/><div style="width: 55px; height: 0px;"></div> </td> <td> <div style="position: relative; left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; z-index: 15;">Here are some tasks awaiting attention: <ul style="font-size: 100%; margin: 0px; padding: 0.3em 0px 0.3em 25px;"> <li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles" title="Wikipedia:Requested articles">Article requests</a></i> :</b> <a href="/w/index.php?title=Mounir_Char%C3%AFbi&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Mounir Charïbi (page does not exist)">Mounir Charïbi</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">Assess</a></i> :</b> Rate the <a href="/wiki/Category:Unassessed_Morocco_articles" title="Category:Unassessed Morocco articles">Unassessed Morocco articles</a> and <a href="/wiki/Category:Unknown-importance_Morocco_articles" title="Category:Unknown-importance Morocco articles">Unknown-importance Morocco-related articles</a>.</li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Cleanup" title="Wikipedia:Cleanup">Cleanup</a></i> :</b> <a class="external text" href="https://tools.wmflabs.org/bambots/cwb/alpha/Morocco.html">Cleanup listing for this project</a> is available. See also <a class="external text" href="https://tools.wmflabs.org/bambots/cwb/bycat/Morocco.html">the list by category</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Geographical_coordinates" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Geographical coordinates">Geographical coordinates</a></i> :</b> Add geographic coordinates to articles in <a href="/wiki/Category:Morocco_articles_missing_geocoordinate_data" title="Category:Morocco articles missing geocoordinate data">Category:Morocco articles missing geocoordinate data</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_pictures" title="Wikipedia:Requested pictures">Photo</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_requested_photographs_in_Morocco" title="Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Morocco">See requested photographs in Morocco</a></li><li><b><i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub" title="Wikipedia:Stub">Stubs</a></i> :</b> <a href="/wiki/Category:Morocco_stubs" title="Category:Morocco stubs">Morocco stubs</a></li><li><b><i>Other</i> :</b> <br/> <ul><li><b>Translate from Arabic</b>: <a href="https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%AC_%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%85_%D8%A3%D9%85%D8%B2%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" class="extiw" title="ar:محمد الحاج سلام أمزيان">Sellam Ameziane</a>, <a href="https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A%D9%87_%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%87" class="extiw" title="ar:مربيه ربه">Mrebih Rebbu</a></li></ul> </li></ul> </div> </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:WikiProject_tunisia.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/WikiProject_tunisia.svg/23px-WikiProject_tunisia.svg.png" decoding="async" width="23" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/WikiProject_tunisia.svg/34px-WikiProject_tunisia.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/WikiProject_tunisia.svg/45px-WikiProject_tunisia.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="150" data-file-height="166"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tunisia" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Tunisia">Tunisia</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-high">High‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:WikiProject_tunisia.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/WikiProject_tunisia.svg/70px-WikiProject_tunisia.svg.png" decoding="async" width="70" height="77" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/WikiProject_tunisia.svg/105px-WikiProject_tunisia.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/WikiProject_tunisia.svg/140px-WikiProject_tunisia.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="150" data-file-height="166"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tunisia" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Tunisia">WikiProject Tunisia</a></b>, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to <a href="/wiki/Tunisia" title="Tunisia">Tunisia</a>. For more information, visit the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tunisia" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Tunisia">project page</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Tunisia</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Tunisia</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Tunisia</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Tunisia articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-high"><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_Tunisia_articles" title="Category:High-importance Tunisia articles">High</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>High-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tunisia/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Tunisia/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Egypt.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Egypt.svg/35px-Flag_of_Egypt.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Egypt.svg/53px-Flag_of_Egypt.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Egypt.svg/70px-Flag_of_Egypt.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Egypt" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Egypt">Egypt</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-low">Low‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Egypt.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Egypt.svg/80px-Flag_of_Egypt.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="53" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Egypt.svg/120px-Flag_of_Egypt.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Egypt.svg/160px-Flag_of_Egypt.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Egypt.svg/32px-Flag_of_Egypt.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Egypt.svg/48px-Flag_of_Egypt.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Egypt.svg/64px-Flag_of_Egypt.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Egypt" title="Portal:Egypt">Egypt portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Egypt" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Egypt">WikiProject Egypt</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Egypt" title="Egypt">Egypt</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Egypt" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Egypt">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Egypt</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Egypt</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Egypt</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Egypt articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-low"><a href="/wiki/Category:Low-importance_Egypt_articles" title="Category:Low-importance Egypt articles">Low</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Low-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Egypt/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Egypt/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Algeria.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Flag_of_Algeria.svg/35px-Flag_of_Algeria.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="23" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Flag_of_Algeria.svg/53px-Flag_of_Algeria.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Flag_of_Algeria.svg/70px-Flag_of_Algeria.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Algeria" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Algeria">Algeria</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-top">Top‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Algeria.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Flag_of_Algeria.svg/50px-Flag_of_Algeria.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="33" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Flag_of_Algeria.svg/75px-Flag_of_Algeria.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Flag_of_Algeria.svg/100px-Flag_of_Algeria.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Flag_of_Algeria.svg/32px-Flag_of_Algeria.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Flag_of_Algeria.svg/48px-Flag_of_Algeria.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Flag_of_Algeria.svg/64px-Flag_of_Algeria.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="900" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Algeria" title="Portal:Algeria">Algeria portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Algeria" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Algeria">WikiProject Algeria</a></b>, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to <b><a href="/wiki/Algeria" title="Algeria">Algeria</a></b> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Algeria/Members" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Algeria/Members">join the project</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Algeria</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Algeria</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Algeria</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Algeria articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-top"><a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Algeria_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Algeria articles">Top</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Top-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Algeria/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Algeria/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table inactive-wikiproject"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:People_icon_dead.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/25px-People_icon_dead.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/38px-People_icon_dead.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/People_icon_dead.svg/50px-People_icon_dead.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="100" data-file-height="100"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Human_Genetic_History" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Human Genetic 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src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Writing_Magnifying.PNG/40px-Writing_Magnifying.PNG" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Writing_Magnifying.PNG/60px-Writing_Magnifying.PNG 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Writing_Magnifying.PNG/80px-Writing_Magnifying.PNG 2x" data-file-width="140" data-file-height="140"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article was <a href="/wiki/Copy_editing" title="Copy editing">copy edited</a> by <a href="/wiki/User:Dhtwiki" title="User:Dhtwiki">Dhtwiki</a>, a member of the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Guild_of_Copy_Editors" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors">Guild of Copy Editors</a></b>, on 14–18 January 2021.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Guild of Copy Editors</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Guild of Copy Editors articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="box-Notice plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/40px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/60px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/80px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text" style="text-align: left;">Part of the content of the "History of Punic-era Tunisia: chronology" article was merged into <a href="/wiki/Berbers" title="Berbers">Berbers</a> on 16 March 2016. That page and its contribution history for attribution purposes is now located <a href="/wiki/Talk:History_of_Carthage/History_of_Punic-era_Tunisia:_chronology" title="Talk:History of Carthage/History of Punic-era Tunisia: chronology">here</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-move" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Merge-split-transwiki_default.svg/36px-Merge-split-transwiki_default.svg.png" decoding="async" width="36" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Merge-split-transwiki_default.svg/54px-Merge-split-transwiki_default.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Merge-split-transwiki_default.svg/72px-Merge-split-transwiki_default.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="36" data-file-height="40"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text">On 18 December 2023, it was proposed that this article be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves" title="Wikipedia:Requested moves">moved</a> to <a href="/wiki/Berber_peoples" class="mw-redirect" title="Berber peoples">Berber peoples</a>. The result of <a href="/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/1190866703#Requested_move_18_December_2023" title="Special:PermanentLink/1190866703">the discussion</a> was <b>not moved</b>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Amazigh_population" data-mw-thread-id="h-Amazigh_population-20240506072800"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Amazigh_population-20240506072800"></span>Amazigh population<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Amazigh_population-20240506072800"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Berbers&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Amazigh population"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tarekelijas-20240506072800-Amazigh_population"></span>The population refers to speakers of Tamazight only and is therefore misleading. I'd say we either add that these are just native Tamazight speakers, or we look for better estimates that refer to the actual population. Lots of Imazighen don't speak their native languages anymore. Even if we say that only half of all Maghreb countries (Tuareg and Zenaga in Mali, Mauritania, Niger etc. EXCLUDED) have pred. Amazigh heritage (very conservative estimate given the fact that in countries like Morocco it's at around 80%), we arrive at more than 49 million people. It's widely known that the 38 million number refers to Amazighophones. <a href="/wiki/User:Tarekelijas" title="User:Tarekelijas">Tarekelijas</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tarekelijas" title="User talk:Tarekelijas">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Tarekelijas-20240506072800-Amazigh_population" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tarekelijas-20240506072800-Amazigh_population"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tarekelijas-20240506072800-Amazigh_population"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Skitash-20240506102000-Tarekelijas-20240506072800"></span><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">"The population refers to speakers of Tamazight only"</q> No it doesn't. Take another look at the sources.</dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">"I'd say we either add that these are just native Tamazight speakers"</q> That's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a>. Nowhere in these sources does it state that these are merely Berber-speaking populations. <a href="/wiki/User:Skitash" title="User:Skitash">Skitash</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Skitash" title="User talk:Skitash">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Skitash-20240506102000-Tarekelijas-20240506072800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:20, 6 May 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Skitash-20240506102000-Tarekelijas-20240506072800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Skitash-20240506102000-Tarekelijas-20240506072800"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-212.108.150.178-20240506150500-Amazigh_population"></span>he population refers to speakers of Tamazight only and is therefore misleading. I'd say we either add that these are just native Tamazight speakers, or we look for better estimates that refer to the actual population. Lots of Imazighen don't speak their native languages anymore. Even if we say that only half of all Maghreb countries (Tuareg and Zenaga in Mali, Mauritania, Niger etc <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/212.108.150.178" title="Special:Contributions/212.108.150.178">212.108.150.178</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:212.108.150.178&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:212.108.150.178 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-212.108.150.178-20240506150500-Amazigh_population" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-212.108.150.178-20240506150500-Amazigh_population"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-212.108.150.178-20240506150500-Amazigh_population"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241008084900-212.108.150.178-20240506150500"></span>response to this: Yes, you are indeed right. Most surveys conducted in Morocco, do not ask about your ethnic origin. If you speak Tamazight, it counts you as one, otherwise, it wouldnt. but for the general population, more people consider themselves Amazigh than what the wiki pages and surveys indicate. However, there is no source to confirm this 'yet,' so it should remain as it is until further proper surveys of the population are conducted. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241008084900-212.108.150.178-20240506150500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:49, 8 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241008084900-212.108.150.178-20240506150500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241008084900-212.108.150.178-20240506150500"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="English_wikipedia_but_some_terms_are_translated_to_Arabic_?" data-mw-thread-id="h-English_wikipedia_but_some_terms_are_translated_to_Arabic_?-20240714215400"><span id="English_wikipedia_but_some_terms_are_translated_to_Arabic_.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-English_wikipedia_but_some_terms_are_translated_to_Arabic_?-20240714215400"></span>English wikipedia but some terms are translated to Arabic ?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-English_wikipedia_but_some_terms_are_translated_to_Arabic_?-20240714215400"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Berbers&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: English wikipedia but some terms are translated to Arabic ?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-102.159.247.23-20240714215400-English_wikipedia_but_some_terms_are_translated_to_Arabic_?"></span>some terms in this page are translated to Arabic. Like: </p> <pre> Berbers (Arabic: بربر) Amazigh(Arabic:أمازيغ) </pre> <p>Why translating ? And why translating to Arabic specifically? <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/102.159.247.23" title="Special:Contributions/102.159.247.23">102.159.247.23</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:102.159.247.23&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:102.159.247.23 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-102.159.247.23-20240714215400-English_wikipedia_but_some_terms_are_translated_to_Arabic_?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-102.159.247.23-20240714215400-English_wikipedia_but_some_terms_are_translated_to_Arabic_?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-102.159.247.23-20240714215400-English_wikipedia_but_some_terms_are_translated_to_Arabic_?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-37.167.145.166-20240907113100-102.159.247.23-20240714215400"></span>I wonder too 😂 <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/37.167.145.166" title="Special:Contributions/37.167.145.166">37.167.145.166</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:37.167.145.166&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:37.167.145.166 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-37.167.145.166-20240907113100-102.159.247.23-20240714215400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:31, 7 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-37.167.145.166-20240907113100-102.159.247.23-20240714215400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-37.167.145.166-20240907113100-102.159.247.23-20240714215400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20240907120800-37.167.145.166-20240907113100"></span>Why shouldn't they be? <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20240907120800-37.167.145.166-20240907113100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:08, 7 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20240907120800-37.167.145.166-20240907113100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20240907120800-37.167.145.166-20240907113100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241008085300-M.Bitton-20240907120800"></span>Simple: the Amazighs are not Arabs. If you are going to do this, then why not apply the same standard to any ethnic population that is a minority (which is not even the case in Morocco)? I don’t like to speak much about this, but for any Amazigh person, it feels like they are always categorized as a secondary offshoot of Arabs, with whom they are not even related. If anything, it raises the question of why such things exist in the Amazigh wiki pages in English (specifically), which are, for some reason, tightly moderated by people who are particularly focused on Arabic nationalism. Nonetheless, Amazighs have their own language, history, and ancestry; they shouldn’t have a different language used to describe them when they have their own written language. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241008085300-M.Bitton-20240907120800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241008085300-M.Bitton-20240907120800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241008085300-M.Bitton-20240907120800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Use_of_Berber_rather_than_Amazigh" data-mw-thread-id="h-Use_of_Berber_rather_than_Amazigh-20240804023600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Use_of_Berber_rather_than_Amazigh-20240804023600"></span>Use of Berber rather than Amazigh<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Use_of_Berber_rather_than_Amazigh-20240804023600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Berbers&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Use of Berber rather than Amazigh"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D-20240804023600-Use_of_Berber_rather_than_Amazigh"></span>Why is Wikipedia "writers" using colonialist nomenclature to refer to the Amazigh people? The Amazigh people find the term "Berber" insulting. The wider world needs to refer to Aboriginal people by their chosen labels rather than ones that were given to them by their oppressors. The term Berber is derogatory. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D" title="Special:Contributions/2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D">2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D-20240804023600-Use_of_Berber_rather_than_Amazigh" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D-20240804023600-Use_of_Berber_rather_than_Amazigh"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D-20240804023600-Use_of_Berber_rather_than_Amazigh"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20240907120600-2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D-20240804023600"></span>That's a baseless claim. In any case, this has been discussed and the term "oppressor" is highly inappropriate. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20240907120600-2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D-20240804023600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:06, 7 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20240907120600-2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D-20240804023600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20240907120600-2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D-20240804023600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241008085500-M.Bitton-20240907120600"></span>The name Berber derives from the Latin word for barbarian, first being used as "Barbar" or people of "Barbaria" to describe North Africans. The ancient Greeks reportedly called the these people Libyans, The Arabs picked it when they conquered North Africa and started using it to refer to the local Amazighs. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241008085500-M.Bitton-20240907120600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:55, 8 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241008085500-M.Bitton-20240907120600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241008085500-M.Bitton-20240907120600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="List_of_Berber_people" data-mw-thread-id="h-List_of_Berber_people-20241101192400"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-List_of_Berber_people-20241101192400"></span>List of Berber people<span data-mw-comment-end="h-List_of_Berber_people-20241101192400"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Berbers&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: List of Berber people"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Samso231-20241101192400-List_of_Berber_people"></span>I'm planning a complete overhaul of the article "List of Berber people", the main fault of the old version was its lack of sources, which will be fixed. I think it has a certain importance, given that Berber culture is not very well known. In addition, I'll be relying mainly on the French version of the article, on which I've been making changes for several months and which tends to improve it. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Samso231&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Samso231 (page does not exist)">Samso231</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Samso231" title="User talk:Samso231">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Samso231-20241101192400-List_of_Berber_people" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Samso231-20241101192400-List_of_Berber_people"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Samso231-20241101192400-List_of_Berber_people"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Language_inclusion" data-mw-thread-id="h-Language_inclusion-20241112130700"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Language_inclusion-20241112130700"></span>Language inclusion<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Language_inclusion-20241112130700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Berbers&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Language inclusion"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241112130700-Language_inclusion"></span>Hello! This is a continuation of a long-standing issue that has been brought up many times, but I wish to ensure it is addressed properly. The issue concerns the inclusion of Tamazight text in the right sidebar of the article, where Neo-Tifinagh script is missing. Additionally, there is the inclusion of Arabic text, which does not align with the approach used for other ethnic groups that also exist in Arabic-majority countries. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241112130700-Language_inclusion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241112130700-Language_inclusion"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241112130700-Language_inclusion"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="18_November_2024" data-mw-thread-id="h-18_November_2024-20241118233500"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-18_November_2024-20241118233500"></span>18 November 2024<span data-mw-comment-end="h-18_November_2024-20241118233500"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Berbers&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: 18 November 2024"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241118233500-18_November_2024"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> What exactly is this that you're doing on the page? the common name rule does not matter in this article, And what do you mean by the endonym being a 'Berberist' addition? You make no sense. This article needs an administrative decision at some point if we keep misinterpreting guidelines after the 100th argument over it. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241118233500-18_November_2024" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241118233500-18_November_2024"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241118233500-18_November_2024"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241118235200-TahaKahi-20241118233500"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk inline-quote-talk-marks">this has been on the article for months</q> that's not a valid to keep it. It's a baseless claim by some Berberists that was presented as a fact. The Berbers are not an ethnic group and when the different Berber ethnic groups refer to themselves, they refer to their specific ethnic group (Kabyle, Chaoui, Mzabi, Tergui, Rifi, Chelhi, etc). <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241118235200-TahaKahi-20241118233500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241118235200-TahaKahi-20241118233500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241118235200-TahaKahi-20241118233500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241118235800-M.Bitton-20241118235200"></span>They fall under a similar ethnic category, namely "Amazigh"/"Berber." You are entitled to a different opinion, but that is what is widely agreed upon. Please refrain from using labels like "Berberist," regardless of the tone you intend with it. Let’s focus on the larger issue: why have you rearranged words in the sidebars under the "COMMONNAME" guideline? Arabic is not even meant to be the focus of this article, yet you have made it the lead lang. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241118235800-M.Bitton-20241118235200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:58, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241118235800-M.Bitton-20241118235200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241118235800-M.Bitton-20241118235200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241119000500-TahaKahi-20241118235800"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk inline-quote-talk-marks">Arabic is not even meant to be the focus of this article</q> that's your irrelevant opinion and the root cause of why you keep harassing me. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241119000500-TahaKahi-20241118235800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241119000500-TahaKahi-20241118235800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241119000500-TahaKahi-20241118235800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241119000700-M.Bitton-20241119000500"></span>Can you please engage in the discussion without making the issue personal? You changed some of my edits and of others, and I am trying to have a conversation to reach a consensus. Let’s keep it civil. Also, please avoid using phrases like "your irrelevant opinion." Thank you. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241119000700-M.Bitton-20241119000500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241119000700-M.Bitton-20241119000500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241119000700-M.Bitton-20241119000500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="RfC_on_Infobox_languages." data-mw-thread-id="h-RfC_on_Infobox_languages.-20241119221200"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-RfC_on_Infobox_languages.-20241119221200"></span>RfC on Infobox languages.<span data-mw-comment-end="h-RfC_on_Infobox_languages.-20241119221200"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Berbers&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: RfC on Infobox languages."><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span id="rfc_0DFCE66"></span><span id="rfctag"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241119221200-RfC_on_Infobox_languages."></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"></p><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Dialog-information_on.svg/40px-Dialog-information_on.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Dialog-information_on.svg/60px-Dialog-information_on.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Dialog-information_on.svg/80px-Dialog-information_on.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><div class="wikipediauserbox" style="float:right;border:1px solid #d0d0d0;margin:1px;width:238px"><table role="presentation" style="border-collapse:collapse;width:238px;margin-bottom:0;margin-top:0;background:#e0e0e0;color:inherit"><tbody><tr><td style="border:0;width:45px;height:45px;background:#d0d0d0;text-align:center;font-size:14pt;font-weight:bold;color:black;padding:0 1px 0 0;line-height:1.25em;vertical-align:middle"><span class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Internet-group-chat.svg/48px-Internet-group-chat.svg.png" decoding="async" width="48" height="48" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Internet-group-chat.svg/72px-Internet-group-chat.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Internet-group-chat.svg/96px-Internet-group-chat.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></span></span></td><td style="border:0;text-align:left;font-size:8pt;padding:0 4px 0 4px;height:45px;line-height:1.25em;color:black;vertical-align:middle">Please consider joining the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Feedback_request_service" title="Wikipedia:Feedback request service">feedback request service</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></div><b>An editor has <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment">requested comments</a> from other editors for this discussion.</b> This page has been added to the following list: <ul><li><b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Wikipedia_style_and_naming" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wikipedia style and naming">Wikipedia style and naming</a></b></li></ul> When discussion has <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Ending_RfCs" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment">ended</a>, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.</td></tr></tbody></table> <p>Should the Infobox include Arabic with the ethnic languages, or follow examples like <a href="/wiki/Assyrian_people" title="Assyrian people">Assyrian people</a> and <a href="/wiki/Copts" title="Copts">Copts</a> that exclude it? <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241119221200-RfC_on_Infobox_languages." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241119221200-RfC_on_Infobox_languages."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241119221200-RfC_on_Infobox_languages."></span> </p> <dl><dd><small><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241122070700-TahaKahi-20241119221200"></span>To avoid further misunderstanding, this Rfc statement means:</i> <dl><dd>"Should the parameter <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|native_name_lang=</code> found in <a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_ethnic_group#Parameters" title="Template:Infobox ethnic group">Template:Infobox ethnic group#Parameters</a> in the article include Arabic in the parameter value, or exclude it?"</dd></dl></small></dd><small> </small><dd><small><i>Please see <a href="#Discussion">§ Discussion</a> below for a more detailed explanation. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241122070700-TahaKahi-20241119221200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:07, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a></i><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241122070700-TahaKahi-20241119221200"></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241122070700-TahaKahi-20241119221200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Survey" data-mw-thread-id="h-Survey-RfC_on_Infobox_languages.-20241119222600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Survey-RfC_on_Infobox_languages.-20241119222600"></span>Survey<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Survey-RfC_on_Infobox_languages.-20241119222600"></span></h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Berbers&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Survey"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241119222600-Survey"></span>Include</b> of course, given that the word Berber is Arabic. There are other reasons that aren't worth mentioning (the fact that it's an Arabic word should send this RfC to bed very quickly). I'm surprised that this is even questioned (using some irrelevant comparison). <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241119222600-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241119222600-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241119222600-Survey"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232300-M.Bitton-20241119222600"></span>the Berber encyclopedia contradicts that the word Berber is of Arabic origin, it is a lexical borrowing from Arabic to Latin... which is quite obvious <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232300-M.Bitton-20241119222600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:23, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232300-M.Bitton-20241119222600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232300-M.Bitton-20241119222600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241119232600-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232300"></span>The Berber encyclopedia is written in French, so stands to reason for it to arrive to that conclusion. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241119232600-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241119232600-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241119232600-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232900-M.Bitton-20241119232600"></span>Please do not give evasive personal opinions <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:POV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:POV">Wp:POV</a>.</dd> <dd>It's an academic source, I don't see why attack it on the fact that it's in French. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232900-M.Bitton-20241119232600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:29, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232900-M.Bitton-20241119232600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232900-M.Bitton-20241119232600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241119233100-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232900"></span>Let me make it crystal clear for you: 1) Your claim is baseless (that French source is based entirely on Arabic sources). 2) Berber is an Arabic word (a fact that is easily attributed to a raft of RS). 3) This is the English Wikipedia. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241119233100-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241119233100-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241119233100-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119232900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119233800-M.Bitton-20241119233100"></span>1) <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Avoid stating opinions as facts.</q> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts.</q> 2) English or French encyclopedia does not change the fact that the term is of Greco-Latin origin and of the same lexical root for both languages. This makes an academic source in French valid. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119233800-M.Bitton-20241119233100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:38, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119233800-M.Bitton-20241119233100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119233800-M.Bitton-20241119233100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241119233900-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119233800"></span>Utter nonsense. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241119233900-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119233800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241119233900-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119233800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241119233900-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119233800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-R_Prazeres-20241120001900-M.Bitton-20241119233900"></span>I suggest everyone moves on from this minor point. The etymology of "Berber", or "Amazigh" for that matter, is not really relevant; if they are used to refer to the people, that's all that's relevant. <a href="/wiki/User:R_Prazeres" title="User:R Prazeres">R Prazeres</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:R_Prazeres" title="User talk:R Prazeres">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-R_Prazeres-20241120001900-M.Bitton-20241119233900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-R_Prazeres-20241120001900-M.Bitton-20241119233900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-R_Prazeres-20241120001900-M.Bitton-20241119233900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-إيان-20241119223300-Survey"></span>Include</b>—Arabic is a major Berber/Amazigh language and has been for about a millennium. <a href="/wiki/User:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" title="User:إيان">إيان</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" title="User talk:إيان">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-إيان-20241119223300-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-إيان-20241119223300-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-إيان-20241119223300-Survey"></span></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-R_Prazeres-20241119224700-Survey"></span>Include</b> Not speaking to any of the other issues that might come up about nomenclature, but I see no reason to remove the Arabic, especially per إيان's comment above. The script and language remain in use throughout North African society, including among Amazigh/Berber peoples. <b>+Comment:</b> The names might benefit from some minor re-organizing for visual clarity; e.g. maybe grouping the renditions of "imazighen" on the one hand and renditions of "berber" on the other. The form <i>Imaziɣen</i>, specifically, also looks like a pseudo-<a href="/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet" title="International Phonetic Alphabet">IPA</a> transcription(?). If so, then it should be removed, or we could include relevant transliterations/romanizations throughout instead. <a href="/wiki/User:R_Prazeres" title="User:R Prazeres">R Prazeres</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:R_Prazeres" title="User talk:R Prazeres">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-R_Prazeres-20241119224700-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-R_Prazeres-20241119224700-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-R_Prazeres-20241119224700-Survey"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119234700-R_Prazeres-20241119224700"></span>Berberity (or its conscience) is carried by Berberophony according to Salem Chaker. And the Berbers are also often French-speaking, so are we going to put the term in French? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119234700-R_Prazeres-20241119224700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119234700-R_Prazeres-20241119224700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119234700-R_Prazeres-20241119224700"></span></dd></dl></li></ul> <ul><li><s><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241119224900-Survey"></span>Not include</b> of course. There is no justification for including Arabic, as it is not a Berber language, even if it was used during Amazigh reigns while the region was under Arab colonization and afterward (a situation similar to the use of Turkish during the Ottoman period).</s></li></ul><s></s><dl><s></s><dd><s>P.S. I believe Amazigh written in the Arabic script should be included.</s> <a href="/wiki/User:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User:Lord Ruffy98">Lord Ruffy98</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User talk:Lord Ruffy98">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241119224900-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:49, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241119224900-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241119224900-Survey"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-إيان-20241119230700-Lord_Ruffy98-20241119224900"></span>As just a small justification from a massive body of justifications, <a href="/wiki/A%CA%BFazzu_M%C4%81_Yu%E1%B9%ADlab" title="Aʿazzu Mā Yuṭlab">here's an article</a> (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources" title="Wikipedia:Reliable sources">WP:reliable sources</a> cited therein) about a seminal work in Arabic by a <a href="/wiki/Masmuda" title="Masmuda">Masmuda</a> Berber man named <a href="/wiki/Ibn_Tumart" title="Ibn Tumart">Ibn Tumart</a>, spiritual leader of a movement that would go on to establish the <a href="/wiki/Almohad_Caliphate" title="Almohad Caliphate">Almohad Caliphate</a> led by the <a href="/w/index.php?title=Mu%27minids&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Mu'minids (page does not exist)">Mu'minids</a>, a major <a href="/wiki/Zenata" title="Zenata">Zenata</a> Berber dynasty. <a href="/wiki/User:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" title="User:إيان">إيان</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" title="User talk:إيان">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-إيان-20241119230700-Lord_Ruffy98-20241119224900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-إيان-20241119230700-Lord_Ruffy98-20241119224900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-إيان-20241119230700-Lord_Ruffy98-20241119224900"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119231200-إيان-20241119230700"></span>WP:OR</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:USEPRIMARY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:USEPRIMARY">WP:USEPRIMARY</a>. Berber written in Arabic in the Middle Ages is a different thing from Arabic. The same goes for Persian/Turkish written in Arabic characters but it is no longer so.</dd> <dd>Moreover, this Arabic script has never imposed itself (see Berber Encyclopedia, article Writing). <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119231200-إيان-20241119230700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119231200-إيان-20241119230700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119231200-إيان-20241119230700"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241119231300-إيان-20241119230700"></span>I don't believe This is about whether Berbers use Arabic or not. It's about its inclusion in the ethnic naming section of the infobox. While Arabic has been and is used among Berbers, it is not their ethnic language. In my view, only Berber languages utilizing the Arabic script should be included, with Arabic itself mentioned in the spoken languages section. As is the case for almost most articles about ethnicities in Arab-speaking countries. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241119231300-إيان-20241119230700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:13, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241119231300-إيان-20241119230700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241119231300-إيان-20241119230700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-R_Prazeres-20241119233000-TahaKahi-20241119231300"></span>Respectfully, "not their ethnic language" is a meaningless statement. More precisely, this is a written medium so it's the script that's at issue. Comparing to other articles is not a good idea, given that contexts differ, but even so the Arabic script or its variants are present in the same way in many ethnicity or human group articles for the region: <a href="/wiki/Kurds" title="Kurds">Kurds</a>, <a href="/wiki/Persians" title="Persians">Persians</a>, <a href="/wiki/Nubians" title="Nubians">Nubians</a>, <a href="/wiki/Armenians_in_Lebanon" title="Armenians in Lebanon">Armenians in Lebanon</a>, <a href="/wiki/Uzbeks" title="Uzbeks">Uzbeks</a> (all of whom speak non-Arabic languages and in some cases also have other historic or contemporary scripts at their disposal), and so on. Since the Arabic script has been used by all the peoples of the region for centuries and still is, the only argument for excluding it is a purely political one, which raises <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a> concerns. <a href="/wiki/User:R_Prazeres" title="User:R Prazeres">R Prazeres</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:R_Prazeres" title="User talk:R Prazeres">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-R_Prazeres-20241119233000-TahaKahi-20241119231300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:30, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-R_Prazeres-20241119233000-TahaKahi-20241119231300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-R_Prazeres-20241119233000-TahaKahi-20241119231300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241119233400-R_Prazeres-20241119233000"></span>I believe I didn’t phrase my response properly. You’re presenting articles that use ethnic language written in Arabic script, not Arabic itself. However, in the case of the article "Berbers" it uses the Arabic language itself, not the Amazigh language written in Arabic script. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241119233400-R_Prazeres-20241119233000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:34, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241119233400-R_Prazeres-20241119233000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241119233400-R_Prazeres-20241119233000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241119234100-TahaKahi-20241119233400"></span>Apples and oranges: unlike Berber, those are not Arabic words. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241119234100-TahaKahi-20241119233400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241119234100-TahaKahi-20241119233400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241119234100-TahaKahi-20241119233400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241120000200-M.Bitton-20241119234100"></span>R.Prazeres Berber encyclopedia state :<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/2125#tocto1n3ss">[1]</a><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Il y a donc bien eu, au Moyen Âge, une dynamique d’appropriation de l’écriture arabe par les Berbères, comparable à celle qui s’est produite dans les domaines turc et iranien en Asie mineure et centrale. <b>Mais ce processus n’a manifestement <u>pas abouti :</u> <u>nulle part</u> ne s’est constituée <u>une véritable </u>tradition écrite du berbère en caractères arabes, stabilisée et <u>socialement significative</u>.</b> Et l’essentiel de ce patrimoine scripturaire en alphabet arabe a disparu avec les formations politiques qui l’ont initié.</q> . We must differentiate between Arabic writing and the Arabic language. Just as writing Berber in Latin is neither Latin nor French. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241120000200-M.Bitton-20241119234100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241120000200-M.Bitton-20241119234100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241120000200-M.Bitton-20241119234100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241120001200-Monsieur_Patillo-20241120000200"></span>Didn't you persistently argue that the overwhelming majority of Maghrebis are Berbers? <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241120001200-Monsieur_Patillo-20241120000200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241120001200-Monsieur_Patillo-20241120000200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241120001200-Monsieur_Patillo-20241120000200"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120193000-إيان-20241119230700"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" title="User:إيان">إيان</a>:</span> I misunderstood the purpose of the RdC initially. Thanks to Mathglot's clarification, I now understand the request and would like to change my vote to support Arabic or better say Darija. <a href="/wiki/User:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User:Lord Ruffy98">Lord Ruffy98</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User talk:Lord Ruffy98">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120193000-إيان-20241119230700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:30, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120193000-إيان-20241119230700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120193000-إيان-20241119230700"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119230600-Survey"></span>Not include</b> . The Arabic language brings nothing here, it have copied the term «barbarian» and the genealogies from the Latin, Christian and Jewish period: "<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Enfin et surtout, malgré leur diversité et leur originalité apparente, presque tous ces récits, que l’on peut diviser en cinq grands types, sont fondés sur des modèles juifs ou chrétiens, simplement adaptés et enrichis. [...] il introduisait surtout un éponyme fort opportunément inventé pour expliquer le terme générique forgé à leur arrivée par les Arabes (probablement à partir du latin Barbari), Berr ou Berber.</q>" as reported in the Berber encyclopedia <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/674">[2]</a> so the term «Bar-Bar» in Arabic is a simple copy/homynim of the ancient (latin) terms, « Barbari » no more and no less. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119230600-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119230600-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119230600-Survey"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241119233600-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119230600"></span>Without Arabic, the very word "Berber" wouldn't exist. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241119233600-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119230600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:36, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241119233600-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119230600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241119233600-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119230600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119234100-M.Bitton-20241119233600"></span>Please avoid <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Advocacy" title="Wikipedia:Advocacy">Wikipedia:Advocacy</a>. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119234100-M.Bitton-20241119233600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119234100-M.Bitton-20241119233600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119234100-M.Bitton-20241119233600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241119234200-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119234100"></span>What are you on about? <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241119234200-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119234100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241119234200-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119234100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241119234200-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119234100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119235600-M.Bitton-20241119234200"></span>Britanica : <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.britannica.com/topic/Berber">[3]</a> : in its infobox only gives the terms: "Self-name: Amazigh Plural: Imazighen".</dd> <dd>Berber Encylopedia : <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/2465">[4]</a>"Amaziɣ (le/un Berbère)"</dd> <dd>Nothing in Arabic in the article headings or introductions. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119235600-M.Bitton-20241119234200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119235600-M.Bitton-20241119234200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119235600-M.Bitton-20241119234200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241120000500-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119235600"></span>Britannica is written in English. The French source is irrelevant (this is the English Wikipedia), it also doesn't cite neo-Tifinagh (that, for some unknown reasons, you're not complaining about). <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241120000500-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119235600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241120000500-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119235600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241120000500-Monsieur_Patillo-20241119235600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Skitash-20241120002700-Survey"></span>Include</b> It makes no sense at all to remove Arabic, especially considering that "Berber" is itself an Arabic word. Moreover, the vast majority of Berbers speak Arabic, which serves as the lingua franca for communication among the various Berber groups (who speak mutually unintelligible languages). <a href="/wiki/User:Skitash" title="User:Skitash">Skitash</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Skitash" title="User talk:Skitash">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Skitash-20241120002700-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Skitash-20241120002700-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Skitash-20241120002700-Survey"></span></li></ul> <ul><li><s><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Surayeproject3-20241120010700-Survey"></span>Not include</b> - I've been asked to offer my two cents on the discussion; I will say that other ethnoreligious groups from the Middle East, such as Kurds and Assyrians, don't have Arabic listed as one of their languages, since they come from countries with different official languages. Groups such as Mandaeans, Nubians, and Turkmen have specific dialects of Arabic listed due to their region of origin, but they mention their original language as well. My thoughts are to not include Arabic as a whole, but consider having specific dialects of Arabic native to areas where indigenous Amazigh land lie, like Algeria and Morocco. Otherwise, not include. <a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3">Surayeproject3</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Surayeproject3" title="User talk:Surayeproject3">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Surayeproject3-20241120010700-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Surayeproject3-20241120010700-Survey"></span></s><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Surayeproject3-20241120010700-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-R_Prazeres-20241120012500-Surayeproject3-20241120010700"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3">Surayeproject3</a>: can you clarify what you mean by "I've been asked"? Where or by whom?<a href="/wiki/User:R_Prazeres" title="User:R Prazeres">R Prazeres</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:R_Prazeres" title="User talk:R Prazeres">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-R_Prazeres-20241120012500-Surayeproject3-20241120010700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-R_Prazeres-20241120012500-Surayeproject3-20241120010700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-R_Prazeres-20241120012500-Surayeproject3-20241120010700"></span> <dl><dd><dl><dd><small><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120193800-Survey"></span><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1236090951">.mw-parser-output .hatnote{font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output div.hatnote{padding-left:1.6em;margin-bottom:0.5em}.mw-parser-output .hatnote i{font-style:normal}.mw-parser-output .hatnote+link+.hatnote{margin-top:-0.5em}@media print{body.ns-0 .mw-parser-output .hatnote{display:none!important}}</style><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">[Sidebar discussion moved to <a href="#Canvassing_inquiry">§ Canvassing inquiry</a> in the <a href="#Discussion">§ Discussion</a> section below. Survey continues in this section...]</div></small></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><b>Include</b> After the clarification of Mathglot i change my vote to including arabic but i think it would be better to use the Darija version. <a href="/wiki/User:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User:Lord Ruffy98">Lord Ruffy98</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User talk:Lord Ruffy98">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120193800-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:38, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120193800-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120193800-Survey"></span></li></ul> <ul><li><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-InvadingInvader-20241120235400-Survey"></span>Include</b>. Useful, it looks like from this discussion and the article that it's reliably sourced, and it merits some due weight, so I don't see a problem with this. I had a content dispute once on whether to include the hyphenated stylizing of the Disney Channel movie <i>Zombies</i> and we met in the middle by throwing the alternative hyphenated title in a footnote. If we can't come to an agreement on hard inclusion, may I suggest either a footnote or a collapsible section of the infobox? <b><span style="color:#0080FB">Invading</span><span style="color:#0668E1">Invader</span></b> (<a href="/wiki/User:InvadingInvader" title="User:InvadingInvader">userpage</a>, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:InvadingInvader" title="User talk:InvadingInvader">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-InvadingInvader-20241120235400-Survey" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-InvadingInvader-20241120235400-Survey"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-InvadingInvader-20241120235400-Survey"></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Discussion" data-mw-thread-id="h-Discussion-RfC_on_Infobox_languages.-20241120012500"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Discussion-RfC_on_Infobox_languages.-20241120012500"></span>Discussion<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Discussion-RfC_on_Infobox_languages.-20241120012500"></span></h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Berbers&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Discussion"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Let's_clarify_what_this_Rfc_is_about" data-mw-thread-id="h-Let's_clarify_what_this_Rfc_is_about-Discussion-20241120015900"><span id="Let.27s_clarify_what_this_Rfc_is_about"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Let's_clarify_what_this_Rfc_is_about-Discussion-20241120015900"></span>Let's clarify what this Rfc is about<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Let's_clarify_what_this_Rfc_is_about-Discussion-20241120015900"></span></h4><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Berbers&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Let's clarify what this Rfc is about"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241120015900-Let's_clarify_what_this_Rfc_is_about"></span>This Rfc is entitled, "<b>RfC on Infobox languages</b>". Let's clarify what this Rfc is about, for those who may be pinged here by Yapperbot (as I was) and may not be familiar with the topic. There is no such thing as <a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Infobox_languages&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Template:Infobox languages (page does not exist)">Template:Infobox languages</a>. There *is* a <a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_language" title="Template:Infobox language">Template:Infobox language</a>, but <b>this Rfc is not about that</b>. In fact, this Rfc is about <a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_ethnic_group" title="Template:Infobox ethnic group">Template:Infobox ethnic group</a>, and the proper use of parameter <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|languages=</code> in that template. You can find that parameter described in the Table at <a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_ethnic_group#Parameters" title="Template:Infobox ethnic group">Template:Infobox ethnic group#Parameters</a>, fourth row from the bottom. </p><p>The Rfc question <a href="#RfC_on_Infobox_languages.">at the top of this section</a> reads, "<span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">Should the Infobox include Arabic with the ethnic languages... or exclude it?</span>" What that sentence means, in other words, is this: </p> <dl><dd>"<span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">Should the Languages section of the Infobox in this article include <i>Arabic</i> in the list, or exclude it?</span>"</dd></dl> <p>In technical terms, this question is equivalent to this: </p> <dl><dd>"<span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">Should parameter <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|languages=</code> found in template <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_ethnic_group" title="Template:Infobox ethnic group">Infobox ethnic group</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> in the article include <i>Arabic</i> in the parameter value, or exclude it?</span>"</dd></dl> <p><a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a>, I am doing a bit of mind-reading here, in an attempt to explain to others what you meant. If this is <b>not</b> what you meant, then you had better explain, and/or reword the Rfc question, as if I misunderstood you, then it is likely others will as well. So, please confirm, or correct my understanding. <small>(<a href="/wiki/Help:Edit_conflict" title="Help:Edit conflict">edit conflict</a> × 2)</small> <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Mathglot-20241120015900-Let's_clarify_what_this_Rfc_is_about" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:59, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241120015900-Let's_clarify_what_this_Rfc_is_about"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20241120015900-Let's_clarify_what_this_Rfc_is_about"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241120053900-Mathglot-20241120015900"></span>You are right; I realized that I worded it incorrectly but couldn’t figure out how to fix it. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241120053900-Mathglot-20241120015900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:39, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241120053900-Mathglot-20241120015900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241120053900-Mathglot-20241120015900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241120090300-TahaKahi-20241120053900"></span>Thanks. I think with your confirmation here, there is no need to reword it. If people are confused, we could add a word of explanation just under your Rfc statement linking here, but given that the heading of this section turns up in the Table of Contents, that's probably enough to attract viewers here who need additional clarification. Thanks again, <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Mathglot-20241120090300-TahaKahi-20241120053900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241120090300-TahaKahi-20241120053900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20241120090300-TahaKahi-20241120053900"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120192100-Mathglot-20241120090300"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a>:</span> Thank you for your clarification! I initially thought the issue was related to the use of Arabic in the infobox, specifically where it says <span title="Arabic-language text"><span lang="ar" dir="rtl">بربر</span></span>, which seems unsuitable as it pertains to Arabic, for me. Based on your explanation, I change my vote to <b>include</b> and I agree that Arabic should remain in the language section, though using the term <b>Darija</b> might be a more accurate choice. <a href="/wiki/User:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User:Lord Ruffy98">Lord Ruffy98</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User talk:Lord Ruffy98">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120192100-Mathglot-20241120090300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:21, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120192100-Mathglot-20241120090300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120192100-Mathglot-20241120090300"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User:Lord Ruffy98"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241120194900-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120192100"></span>Lord Ruffy98</a>, yvw. Because your unbolded <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1258630322" title="Special:Diff/1258630322">vote change comment above</a> might get overlooked, what I would recommend is that you first have a quick look at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REDACT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REDACT">WP:REDACT</a>, and then <s>strike out</s> your original, bolded "Not include" !vote of 22:49 yesterday (leaving it bold, but struck out). Then, add your new vote, with a brief explanation and a link to here. For example, you could reply to <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1258630322" title="Special:Diff/1258630322">your own, last message</a> and say something like, "<code>Clarification: my new vote is '''Include'''; see [[#Let's clarify what this Rfc is about|below]]</code>" or similar (plus your sig). (You could instead, if you wish, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REDACT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REDACT">redact</a> your last message and change it, but reply-to-self is probably easier in this case.) You can do all this in one edit, or two if it's easier. HTH, <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Mathglot-20241120194900-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120192100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:49, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241120194900-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120192100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20241120194900-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120192100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241120200600-Mathglot-20241120194900"></span>Yes, your update is fine, and will be clear to any closer. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Mathglot-20241120200600-Mathglot-20241120194900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:06, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241120200600-Mathglot-20241120194900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20241120200600-Mathglot-20241120194900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241120202300-Mathglot-20241120200600"></span>I don't understand anymore if the RFC concerns the infobox? or not (article)? because for me these are two different questions. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241120202300-Mathglot-20241120200600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:23, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241120202300-Mathglot-20241120200600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241120202300-Mathglot-20241120200600"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241120203300-Mathglot-20241120194900"></span>Okay, wait, now this is getting more confusing. What I specifically meant was the (بربر Imaziɣen ⴰⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖ أمازيغ) part in the infobox at the very top, not the languages the Amazigh people speak. It seems that @<a href="/wiki/User:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User:Lord Ruffy98">Lord Ruffy98</a> misunderstood; I'm not talking about the 'Languages' section, but rather the languages used at the top of the page. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241120203300-Mathglot-20241120194900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241120203300-Mathglot-20241120194900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241120203300-Mathglot-20241120194900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241120203500-TahaKahi-20241120203300"></span>Rechecking the infobox Parameters, this is for "group". <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241120203500-TahaKahi-20241120203300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:35, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241120203500-TahaKahi-20241120203300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241120203500-TahaKahi-20241120203300"></span> <dl><dd><small><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241120204200-TahaKahi-20241120203500"></span>(<a href="/wiki/Help:Edit_conflict" title="Help:Edit conflict">edit conflict</a>)</small> <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a>, you already confirmed my attempted explanation above; are you now changing that understanding? Because <a href="/wiki/User:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User:Lord Ruffy98">Lord Ruffy98</a> already changed their vote based on it, and now <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> appears to have had a different understanding than my explanation, *and* a different understanding from your most recent comment. I am starting to fear that this Rfc is fatally tainted, and may not be able to be reasonably closed, if every !vote means something different to every voter. I am not sure if it is possible for it to be saved at this point. It might be better to withdraw this Rfc, let the dust settle, and start another one, with a neutral, and clearly worded Rfc statement, but if you choose that path, I wouldn't do it right away, because I think everyone is exhausted, and it may not get the feedback it deserves. Or, you can let it continue, but I pity the closer's job. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Mathglot-20241120204200-TahaKahi-20241120203500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241120204200-TahaKahi-20241120203500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20241120204200-TahaKahi-20241120203500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241120205600-Mathglot-20241120204200"></span>I think we should let it run its course. Let that be a good lesson for those who start a RfC without <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFCBEFORE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFCBEFORE">WP:RFCBEFORE</a>. 20:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC)<a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241120205600-Mathglot-20241120204200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241120205600-Mathglot-20241120204200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241120205600-Mathglot-20241120204200"></span></dd> <dd><span class="anchor" id="20:57,_20_Nov"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241120205700-Mathglot-20241120204200"></span> Yes, because at first, I thought everyone had cast their vote based on what I perceived from your reply (which is entirely my fault, as I misinterpreted it) that the 'Infobox ethnic group' was what I meant to specify. If you read the previous arguments on this talk page (not the RFC), I was always referring to the group name part in the infobox. By mistake, I did not thoroughly review the template itself and assumed it was correct. My perception was that I hadn't phrased it properly when Ian made his notice about the Copts, which we agreed was a mistake. This whole situation is indeed a mess. I should have phrased it properly from the beginning, but I didn’t know how to, as it was my first time filing an RFC. I believe the proper sentence should be: "<span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">Should parameter <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|native_name_lang=</code> found in template <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_ethnic_group" title="Template:Infobox ethnic group">Infobox ethnic group</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> in the article include <i>Arabic</i> in the parameter value, or exclude it?</span>" <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241120205700-Mathglot-20241120204200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:57, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241120205700-Mathglot-20241120204200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241120205700-Mathglot-20241120204200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241120210200-TahaKahi-20241120205700"></span>I know what I !voted for. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241120210200-TahaKahi-20241120205700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241120210200-TahaKahi-20241120205700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241120210200-TahaKahi-20241120205700"></span></dd> <dd><small><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241120210700-TahaKahi-20241120205700"></span>(<a href="/wiki/Help:Edit_conflict" title="Help:Edit conflict">edit conflict</a>)</small> Understood, and I don't doubt your good faith in creating the Rfc, but that is now a third interpretation of the Rfc statement, and it's a pity that wasn't clear at the outset. Don't know what's best at this point, and not my call. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Mathglot-20241120210700-TahaKahi-20241120205700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241120210700-TahaKahi-20241120205700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20241120210700-TahaKahi-20241120205700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241120211000-Mathglot-20241120210700"></span>If I had a say in formulating the RfC before it was started, I would have suggested the exclusion of Tifinagh and Latin. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241120211000-Mathglot-20241120210700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:10, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241120211000-Mathglot-20241120210700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241120211000-Mathglot-20241120210700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120220500-M.Bitton-20241120211000"></span>The core of Berber language identity lies in certain fundamental elements, which are likely the only ones that should remain unchanged; latin-script and Tifinagh are one of those. Arabic is different as it's from another culture. That explains a lot. <a href="/wiki/User:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User:Lord Ruffy98">Lord Ruffy98</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User talk:Lord Ruffy98">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120220500-M.Bitton-20241120211000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120220500-M.Bitton-20241120211000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120220500-M.Bitton-20241120211000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241120221200-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120220500"></span>Very funny. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241120221200-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120220500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241120221200-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120220500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241120221200-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120220500"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Skitash-20241120222000-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120220500"></span>Are you suggesting that Arabic, which Berbers used for about a millennium, is less of a "fundamental element" of Berber culture than the <a href="/wiki/Berber_Latin_alphabet" title="Berber Latin alphabet">Latin alphabet</a> (introduced to Berbers during French colonial rule) or <a href="/wiki/Neo-Tifinagh" class="mw-redirect" title="Neo-Tifinagh">Neo-Tifinagh</a> (invented by a Paris-based organization in the 1970s)? <a href="/wiki/User:Skitash" title="User:Skitash">Skitash</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Skitash" title="User talk:Skitash">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Skitash-20241120222000-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120220500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Skitash-20241120222000-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120220500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Skitash-20241120222000-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120220500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120232100-Skitash-20241120222000"></span>It is important for Amazigh history but I do not believe it is part of its core. <ul><li>The <a href="/wiki/Berber_Latin_alphabet" title="Berber Latin alphabet">Latin script</a> was invented in the colonial period, it is true but I consider it important because it brought the <a href="/wiki/Berber_languages" title="Berber languages">Tamazigh</a> into writing leading to a greater diffusion, in fact today it is the most used of the three which makes it important in my eyes. News, articles are generally written with this system.</li> <li>Some <a href="/wiki/Imazighen" class="mw-redirect" title="Imazighen">Imazighen</a> worked on the <a href="/wiki/Neo-Tifinagh" class="mw-redirect" title="Neo-Tifinagh">neo-Tifinagh</a>, whether they are from Paris is not relevant in this context, who decided to take up the ancient language that has been preserved by a few tribes until today and to improve it by making it broader. The alphabet of this language is based on what was used before the <a href="/wiki/Arab_invasions" class="mw-redirect" title="Arab invasions">Arab invasions</a> so I believe it is the closest to the core of the Amazigh identity.</li></ul></dd> <dd>Similar speech for <a href="/wiki/Farsi" class="mw-redirect" title="Farsi">Farsi</a> and to <a href="/wiki/Persians" title="Persians">Persians</a>.</dd> <dd>However I do not think it is useful to discuss this now since the topic is another. <a href="/wiki/User:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User:Lord Ruffy98">Lord Ruffy98</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User talk:Lord Ruffy98">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120232100-Skitash-20241120222000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:21, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120232100-Skitash-20241120222000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120232100-Skitash-20241120222000"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900-Mathglot-20241120204200"></span>I agree with that! Do you think I should still include a render in my votation? <a href="/wiki/User:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User:Lord Ruffy98">Lord Ruffy98</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lord_Ruffy98" title="User talk:Lord Ruffy98">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900-Mathglot-20241120204200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:59, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900-Mathglot-20241120204200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900-Mathglot-20241120204200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241120222400-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900"></span>I believe so, but I'm not sure how to proceed with editing the RFC itself. It's pretty obvious that some people interpreted it differently. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241120222400-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241120222400-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241120222400-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241120222500-TahaKahi-20241120222400"></span>Too late. You leave it as it is. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241120222500-TahaKahi-20241120222400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241120222500-TahaKahi-20241120222400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241120222500-TahaKahi-20241120222400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241120232400-M.Bitton-20241120222500"></span>He's allowed to, just remove the strikethrough from the text and scratch off the new one until I get confirmation if we should restart the RFC. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241120232400-M.Bitton-20241120222500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241120232400-M.Bitton-20241120222500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241120232400-M.Bitton-20241120222500"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241121013300-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900"></span>TahaKahi</a>, one thing you could do now, is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REDACT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REDACT">WP:REDACT</a> your original Rfc statement at the top, as well as my (apparently incorrect) explanation just below it, with <s>strikeout type</s>, and then copy your new Rfc statement from the end of your <a href="#20:57,_20_Nov">20:57, 20 Nov. comment</a> and paste it in <u>underline type</u> just after the old version you just struck out, along with a brief explanation and a link to here. The Rfc is still quite young, and if it continues to attract responses, with future votes based solely on the correct Rfc question, then there is still a chance that this could work out. Let me know if you need help with that redaction, though I have to admit I'm a bit shy of getting it wrong again, and that would probably be just one too many twists and turns and make this Rfc unsalvageable. So if you know how to do the redaction, you should probably do it; but if you don't, I'll make one attempt. Let me know. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Mathglot-20241121013300-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241121013300-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20241121013300-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241121110000-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900"></span>Actually, looking again at your <a href="#20:57,_20_Nov">20:57, 20 Nov. comment</a>, your new Rfc statement based on <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|native_name_lang=</code> will not work. For the reason why, see <a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_ethnic_group#Parameters" title="Template:Infobox ethnic group">Template:Infobox ethnic group#Parameters</a>, and note the <a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_ethnic_group#Example" title="Template:Infobox ethnic group">Tajiks example</a> there, which also has two languages, with both languages listed in <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|native_name=</code>, but with <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|native_name_lang=</code> left blank, according to the Parameter guidance: "<span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">... If more than one, use <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Lang" title="Template:Lang">lang</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> instead.</span>" So we would do the same thing here, if there is more than one language in the list, and we would use <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Lang" title="Template:Lang">lang</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> for each one in the <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|native_name=</code> param, leaving <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|native_name_lang=</code> blank. (See also <a href="#About_param_native_name">§ About param native name</a> below.) So, it seems we still don't have a clear Rfc question, sigh... I'm pretty close to giving up on this; maybe someone else can steward this to a helpful conclusion. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Mathglot-20241121110000-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241121110000-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20241121110000-Lord_Ruffy98-20241120215900"></span> <dl><dd><span class="anchor" id="12:39,_21_Nov"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121123900-Mathglot-20241121110000"></span>Actually it is quite simple, the questions can be formulated as follows:</dd> <dd>1 - are you for the inclusion of the name in Arabic, as a native language, in the infobox?</dd> <dd>2 - are you for the use in the article of the name in Arabic for demonstration purposes (etymology etc...)? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121123900-Mathglot-20241121110000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121123900-Mathglot-20241121110000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121123900-Mathglot-20241121110000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241121153000-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121123900"></span>Actually, it's even simpler than that given that there no such thing as a single "Berber language" that is representative of every Berber ethnic group. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241121153000-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121123900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241121153000-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121123900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241121153000-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121123900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121154400-M.Bitton-20241121153000"></span>no more than there is a "single Arabic language" : <a href="/wiki/Modern_Standard_Arabic" title="Modern Standard Arabic">Modern Standard Arabic</a>, <a href="/wiki/Darija" class="mw-redirect" title="Darija">Darija</a>, <a href="/wiki/Classical_Arabic" title="Classical Arabic">Classical Arabic</a> ... <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121154400-M.Bitton-20241121153000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:44, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121154400-M.Bitton-20241121153000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121154400-M.Bitton-20241121153000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Skitash-20241121154700-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121154400"></span>Those are varieties of Arabic. Berber languages on the other hand are mutually unintelligible languages. <a href="/wiki/User:Skitash" title="User:Skitash">Skitash</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Skitash" title="User talk:Skitash">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Skitash-20241121154700-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121154400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:47, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Skitash-20241121154700-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121154400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Skitash-20241121154700-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121154400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121160700-Skitash-20241121154700"></span>No <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PODIUM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PODIUM">WP:PODIUM</a> please. INLACO (Paris) : <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Les parlers chaoui sont très proches de ceux du reste de l'Algérie du Nord -notamment du kabyle-, avec lesquels l'intercompréhension est presque toujours immédiate.</q> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.centrederechercheberbere.fr/aures.html">[5]</a>.</dd> <dd>Algerian Constitution : <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Tamazight est également <b>langue</b> nationale et officielle. L'Etat œuvre à sa promotion et à son développement dans toutes ses<b> variétés</b> linguistiques en usage sur le territoire national.</q>.</dd> <dd>So the situation is more complicated than what you are saying. Intercomprehension between Berber speakers exists between groups and to varying degrees depending on the distance.</dd> <dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://orientxxi.info/magazine/l-arabe-une-langue-ou-plusieurs,5240">As in Arabic</a> , a speaker of <a href="/wiki/Hassaniya" class="mw-redirect" title="Hassaniya">Hassaniya</a> from Mauritania will not understand a Yemeni and goes through a language called Modern Standard Arabic <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2004/08/SAID/11471">with 60% neologism (according to Edward Said)</a>. The Berber language has always been seen in academic publications as a single language with variants (Salem Chaker, Reflections on Berber Studies during the Colonial Period (Algeria), 1982). <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121160700-Skitash-20241121154700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:07, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121160700-Skitash-20241121154700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121160700-Skitash-20241121154700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241121162200-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121160700"></span>You've been casting aspersions for a while. Perhaps it was my fault to let them slide, but now it's getting ridiculous. One more time and I will amass all of your so many aspersions (here and on other talk pages) and take them to ANI. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241121162200-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121160700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241121162200-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121160700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241121162200-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121160700"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Skitash-20241121162300-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121160700"></span>With regards to your WP:OR, Chaoui and Kabyle aren't the only two Berber languages that exist, and the Algerian constitution refers specifically to <a href="/wiki/Standard_Algerian_Berber" title="Standard Algerian Berber">Standard Algerian Berber</a>.</dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">"The Berber language has always been seen in academic publications as a single language with variants"</q> Since you're asserting that it is a single language, then could you clarify what this standardized, codified variant is called and which writing system it uses? <a href="/wiki/User:Skitash" title="User:Skitash">Skitash</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Skitash" title="User talk:Skitash">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Skitash-20241121162300-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121160700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Skitash-20241121162300-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121160700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Skitash-20241121162300-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121160700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121162900-Skitash-20241121162300"></span>M.Bitton. I am not slandering (no attack on you, your person), there is no intention to offend you. I am talking about your remarks which must be supported by sources. I answered with links and therefore in a sourced manner.</dd> <dd>The debate is not about languages but about the wording of the RFC. I think it is better to return to the subject. Regards. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121162900-Skitash-20241121162300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121162900-Skitash-20241121162300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121162900-Skitash-20241121162300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241121183100-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121162900"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk inline-quote-talk-marks">No <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PODIUM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PODIUM">WP:PODIUM</a> please</q> who was this meant for and what is it supposed to mean? <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241121183100-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121162900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:31, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241121183100-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121162900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241121183100-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121162900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241122205600-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121123900"></span>Monsieur Patillo</a>, it may be simple to you, but <a href="#12:39,_21_Nov">what you wrote above</a> is more confusing than it is simple. The phrase "<span class="example" style="font-family: Georgia, 'DejaVu Serif', serif; color: var(--color-content-added, #006400);">inclusion of the name in Arabic</span>" is ambiguous because you didn't say whether you meant <a href="/wiki/Arabic_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Arabic language">Arabic language</a> or <a href="/wiki/Arabic_script" title="Arabic script">Arabic script</a>. If you meant how Berber speakers who use the Arabic script to write Berber would render the name of their language when writing about it, then it is a transliteration of the word <i>Tamazight</i> : <big>تمازيغت.</big> If you mean how Arabic speakers writing in Arabic (language) would render the name of the language of the Berbers when writing about it, that is typically :<big> البربرية </big> (there are variants) which is transliterated as <i>al-Barbariyya</i>.</dd> <dd>It seems that nothing in this topic is simple; everybody knows what they mean in their head when they think about it, but when writing about it, it gets all tied up in knots. It's no wonder that several attempts to write a clear, neutral Rfc statement have failed, and I agree with a previous comment that <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFCBEFORE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFCBEFORE">WP:RFCBEFORE</a> was not carried out, leading to what seems to me to be a waste of multiple editors' time. The silver lining, if there is one, is that hopefully the twists and turns of this attempted Rfc will shine a light on the pain points involved and that next time around, a thorough discussion will lead to an agreement about what the Rfc statement should be, before the Rfc is started. I consider this one in its death throes. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Mathglot-20241122205600-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121123900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:56, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241122205600-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121123900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20241122205600-Monsieur_Patillo-20241121123900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241122212600-Mathglot-20241122205600"></span>you are right: I therefore specify that I speak of the Arabic language. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Monsieur_Patillo&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Monsieur Patillo (page does not exist)">Monsieur Patillo</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Monsieur_Patillo" title="User talk:Monsieur Patillo">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241122212600-Mathglot-20241122205600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:26, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241122212600-Mathglot-20241122205600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Monsieur_Patillo-20241122212600-Mathglot-20241122205600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="Canvassing_inquiry" data-mw-thread-id="h-Canvassing_inquiry-Discussion-20241120012500"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Canvassing_inquiry-Discussion-20241120012500"></span>Canvassing inquiry<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Canvassing_inquiry-Discussion-20241120012500"></span></h4><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Berbers&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: Canvassing inquiry"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241120024800-Canvassing_inquiry"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3">Surayeproject3</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:R_Prazeres" title="User:R Prazeres">R Prazeres</a>, and <a href="/wiki/User:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" title="User:إيان">إيان</a>:</span>, the inquiry into possible canvassing above is appropriate, but it is ballooning the <a href="#Survey">§ Survey</a> section, and would make more sense here. If there is no objection from anyone, I will refactor by moving that part of the discussion here, starting with the comment of <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1258492822" title="Special:Diff/1258492822">01:25, 20 November 2024</a> and those that follow up on it. Thanks, <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Mathglot-20241120024800-Canvassing_inquiry" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241120024800-Canvassing_inquiry"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20241120024800-Canvassing_inquiry"></span> </p> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-R_Prazeres-20241120012500-Canvassing_inquiry"></span><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1235781174">.mw-parser-output .hmbox-outer{margin-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .hmbox-inner{display:inline-block;color:var(--color-base,#202122);border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);background-color:var(--background-color-interactive-subtle,#f8f9fa);margin-right:0.5em;padding:0.3em 0.5em}</style><div role="note" class="hmbox-outer unresolved"><div class="hmbox-inner"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Purple_arrow_down.svg/20px-Purple_arrow_down.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Purple_arrow_down.svg/30px-Purple_arrow_down.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Purple_arrow_down.svg/40px-Purple_arrow_down.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="250"/></span></span> Moved from <a href="#Survey">§ Survey</a></div> – <span style="font-size: 85%">section above</span></div> <dl><dd><dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3">Surayeproject3</a>: can you clarify what you mean by "I've been asked"? Where or by whom?<a href="/wiki/User:R_Prazeres" title="User:R Prazeres">R Prazeres</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:R_Prazeres" title="User talk:R Prazeres">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-R_Prazeres-20241120012500-Canvassing_inquiry" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-R_Prazeres-20241120012500-Canvassing_inquiry"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-R_Prazeres-20241120012500-Canvassing_inquiry"></span></dd> <dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241120012500-R_Prazeres-20241120012500"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3">Surayeproject3</a>:</span> thank you for your honesty. Would you mind me asking who asked you and how? <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241120012500-R_Prazeres-20241120012500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241120012500-R_Prazeres-20241120012500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241120012500-R_Prazeres-20241120012500"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Surayeproject3-20241120015100-M.Bitton-20241120012500"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> @<a href="/wiki/User:R_Prazeres" title="User:R Prazeres">R Prazeres</a> My apologies for the confusion, I didn't mean to say I was asked to weigh in on the Wikipedia discussion, but rather something more personal. I've been very busy outside of Wikipedia with other projects and school, so my concentration is not the best. Once again, my apologies for the confusion. <a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3">Surayeproject3</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Surayeproject3" title="User talk:Surayeproject3">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Surayeproject3-20241120015100-M.Bitton-20241120012500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Surayeproject3-20241120015100-M.Bitton-20241120012500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Surayeproject3-20241120015100-M.Bitton-20241120012500"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241120020300-Surayeproject3-20241120015100"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3">Surayeproject3</a>:</span> you did say <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk inline-quote-talk-marks">I've been asked to offer my two cents on the discussion</q>.</dd> <dd>I'm sorry to insist, but I need to ask this: are you in contact with anyone who is involved in this RfC? <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241120020300-Surayeproject3-20241120015100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241120020300-Surayeproject3-20241120015100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241120020300-Surayeproject3-20241120015100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Surayeproject3-20241120020700-M.Bitton-20241120020300"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:R_Prazeres" title="User:R Prazeres">R Prazeres</a> @<a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> I primarily edit Assyrian-related articles, and I've come across the page for Amazigh in the past since I look into non-Arab SWANA groups on Wikipedia as well. In my experience, Assyrian articles have a problem regarding identity debates within the community that have caused vandalism and have flooded the talk page, and I've been looking at other groups (Maronites, Mandaeans, etc.) to see if they have similar issues on their pages. I saw the RfC and wanted to weigh in my thoughts, but I'm not currently in contact with anyone from the RfC itself. <a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3">Surayeproject3</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Surayeproject3" title="User talk:Surayeproject3">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Surayeproject3-20241120020700-M.Bitton-20241120020300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Surayeproject3-20241120020700-M.Bitton-20241120020300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Surayeproject3-20241120020700-M.Bitton-20241120020300"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241120021100-Surayeproject3-20241120020700"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3">Surayeproject3</a>:</span> here's what you said: <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk inline-quote-talk-marks">I've been asked to offer my two cents on the discussion.</q></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk inline-quote-talk-marks">I didn't mean to say I was asked to weigh in on the Wikipedia discussion, but rather something more personal</q></li></ul></dd> <dd>So who asked you the <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk inline-quote-talk-marks">rather something more personal</q>? <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241120021100-Surayeproject3-20241120020700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:11, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241120021100-Surayeproject3-20241120020700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241120021100-Surayeproject3-20241120020700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-R_Prazeres-20241120021600-M.Bitton-20241120021100"></span>I think it's not necessary to keep insisting on this, but remind all editors of policy just in case. <a href="/wiki/User:R_Prazeres" title="User:R Prazeres">R Prazeres</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:R_Prazeres" title="User talk:R Prazeres">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-R_Prazeres-20241120021600-M.Bitton-20241120021100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-R_Prazeres-20241120021600-M.Bitton-20241120021100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-R_Prazeres-20241120021600-M.Bitton-20241120021100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241120021800-R_Prazeres-20241120021600"></span>I have to insist because the answers don't add up. If there is canvassing (which I have every reason to suspect), then we need to know who did it. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241120021800-R_Prazeres-20241120021600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241120021800-R_Prazeres-20241120021600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241120021800-R_Prazeres-20241120021600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-إيان-20241120021100-Surayeproject3-20241120015100"></span>Can you explain what you mean by <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">I didn't mean to say I was asked to weigh in on the Wikipedia discussion, but rather something more personal</q>? I don't really understand. <a href="/wiki/User:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" title="User:إيان">إيان</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" title="User talk:إيان">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-إيان-20241120021100-Surayeproject3-20241120015100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:11, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-إيان-20241120021100-Surayeproject3-20241120015100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-إيان-20241120021100-Surayeproject3-20241120015100"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Surayeproject3-20241120030600-R_Prazeres-20241120012500"></span>Ok, I will start by saying that contrary to my previous comments, I was asked to take part in the conversation by a user here through a private message from my page, and I sincerely apologize for not being truthful with my previous statements. @<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:TahaKai&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:TahaKai (page does not exist)">TahaKai</a> sent me a message suggesting that I would be good for the conversation based on my previous work on Assyrian articles, since we have historically faced Arabization and they felt that my input would be appropriate. Although it wasn't sent to my talk page, and instead by email, they had only sent me one message and I hadn't edited any articles related to Amazigh at all. This falls under the "Appropriate notification" section of the user guidelines for Canvassing, but falls under the "Inappropriate section" as "Stealth canvassing".</dd> <dd>The reason I lied was because I hadn't been aware of the user guidelines for canvassing, or that it was a thing in the first place, and I thought that I had done something that was very inappropriate for the conduct of Wikipedia. While it is true that I was asked to weigh in on something personal, it falls outside of the scope of Wikipedia and is not related to the discussion above. My other statement is also true that I've come across the Amazigh page numerous times before, since I frequent non-Arab SWANA group pages on Wikipedia.</dd> <dd>Once again, I would like to sincerely apologize to all editors involved for my conduct and lack of truthfulness. If fitting, please remove my first comment from the discussion on the RfC, and I promise to be more careful in the future. <a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3">Surayeproject3</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Surayeproject3" title="User talk:Surayeproject3">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Surayeproject3-20241120030600-R_Prazeres-20241120012500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:06, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Surayeproject3-20241120030600-R_Prazeres-20241120012500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Surayeproject3-20241120030600-R_Prazeres-20241120012500"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-إيان-20241120033300-Surayeproject3-20241120030600"></span>Surayeproject3</a>, thank you for this.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a>, do you have anything to add? Aside from Surayeproject3 and <a href="/wiki/User_talk:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86#About_berbers_RFC" title="User talk:إيان">myself</a> regarding the notes under the RfC, did you reach out to anyone else with regard to this RfC, whether on Wiki or off? <a href="/wiki/User:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" title="User:إيان">إيان</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" title="User talk:إيان">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-إيان-20241120033300-Surayeproject3-20241120030600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-إيان-20241120033300-Surayeproject3-20241120030600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-إيان-20241120033300-Surayeproject3-20241120030600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TahaKahi-20241120053600-إيان-20241120033300"></span>No, I only asked him if he had an opinion on the subject, considering his experience editing pages about a minority in an Arab-majority country. I wanted to understand his perspective on the rule regarding the infobox. However, you're right—I hadn’t noticed that rule, and I apologize for the confusion. <a href="/wiki/User:TahaKahi" title="User:TahaKahi">TahaKahi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TahaKahi" title="User talk:TahaKahi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-TahaKahi-20241120053600-إيان-20241120033300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TahaKahi-20241120053600-إيان-20241120033300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TahaKahi-20241120053600-إيان-20241120033300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241120170200-TahaKahi-20241120053600"></span><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk inline-quote-talk-marks">I only asked him if he had an opinion on the subject</q> you asked them to weigh in because supposedly, they too "have historically faced Arabization". The fact that you did so by email speaks for itself. <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241120170200-TahaKahi-20241120053600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241120170200-TahaKahi-20241120053600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241120170200-TahaKahi-20241120053600"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-M.Bitton-20241120035200-Surayeproject3-20241120030600"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3">Surayeproject3</a>:</span> thank you. Please feel free to strike through your !vote (once done, we'll collapse it and the replies to it). <a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:M.Bitton" title="User talk:M.Bitton">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-M.Bitton-20241120035200-Surayeproject3-20241120030600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:52, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-M.Bitton-20241120035200-Surayeproject3-20241120030600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-M.Bitton-20241120035200-Surayeproject3-20241120030600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Surayeproject3-20241120035600-M.Bitton-20241120035200"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:M.Bitton" title="User:M.Bitton">M.Bitton</a> Can you tell me how I can strike it through khon? I'm not familiar as I've never done it before <a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3">Surayeproject3</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Surayeproject3" title="User talk:Surayeproject3">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Surayeproject3-20241120035600-M.Bitton-20241120035200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Surayeproject3-20241120035600-M.Bitton-20241120035200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Surayeproject3-20241120035600-M.Bitton-20241120035200"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-إيان-20241120041600-Surayeproject3-20241120035600"></span>Surayeproject3</a>, edit this page on the source editor, select your all the text of your ǃvote, click on the dropdown menu that says 'Paragraph' at the top, and then click 'Strikethrough' from the menu. If you try and can't figure it out, let me know and I'll do it for you. <a href="/wiki/User:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" title="User:إيان">إيان</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:%D8%A5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86" title="User talk:إيان">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-إيان-20241120041600-Surayeproject3-20241120035600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-إيان-20241120041600-Surayeproject3-20241120035600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-إيان-20241120041600-Surayeproject3-20241120035600"></span></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241120041800-Surayeproject3-20241120035600"></span>Surayeproject3</a>, use the s-tag, <s> <s>like this</s> </s>. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Mathglot-20241120041800-Surayeproject3-20241120035600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241120041800-Surayeproject3-20241120035600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mathglot-20241120041800-Surayeproject3-20241120035600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Surayeproject3-20241120043600-Mathglot-20241120041800"></span>I've striked through my vote, hope this helps. <a href="/wiki/User:Surayeproject3" title="User:Surayeproject3">Surayeproject3</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Surayeproject3" title="User talk:Surayeproject3">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Surayeproject3-20241120043600-Mathglot-20241120041800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Surayeproject3-20241120043600-Mathglot-20241120041800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Surayeproject3-20241120043600-Mathglot-20241120041800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="About_param_native_name" data-mw-thread-id="h-About_param_native_name-Discussion-20241121111900"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-About_param_native_name-Discussion-20241121111900"></span>About param native_name<span data-mw-comment-end="h-About_param_native_name-Discussion-20241121111900"></span></h4><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Berbers&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: About param native_name"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mathglot-20241121111900-About_param_native_name"></span>I don't really want to start something because I think this Rfc has jumped the shark, but in the interests of providing the broadest background available for a possible forthcoming Rfc on this topic (or even for this one, if it staggers on somehow), I just wanted to let folks know that the topic of the <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|native_name=</code> parameter came up recently elsewhere, and generated an interesting discussion in the context of the <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_country" title="Template:Infobox country">Infobox country</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> template. This situation of the two templates are not identical, but there are similarities, and there were some good and thoughtful comments at that discussion that might apply here as well. You can find it at <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Infobox_country#What_is_%7Cnative_name=_for?">Template talk:Infobox country#What is |native_name= for?</a></span>. Additional explanation about params <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|native_name=</code> and <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|native_name_lang=</code> can be found <a href="/wiki/Template:Infobox_settlement#Parameter_names_and_descriptions" title="Template:Infobox settlement">here</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Mathglot" title="User:Mathglot">Mathglot</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mathglot" title="User talk:Mathglot">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Berbers#c-Mathglot-20241121111900-About_param_native_name" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:19, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mathglot-20241121111900-About_param_native_name"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span 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