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class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Gallo-Italian langauges</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Gallo-Italian_langauges-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-References_for_categorisation" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#References_for_categorisation"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>References for categorisation</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">6 comments</span> <ul id="toc-References_for_categorisation-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Gallo-Italian_and_Gallo-Rhetian_languages" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Gallo-Italian_and_Gallo-Rhetian_languages"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> 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vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Academic_sources_contradicting_the_template"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7.1</span> <span>Academic sources contradicting the template</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Academic_sources_contradicting_the_template-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Simple_question" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Simple_question"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>Simple question</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Simple_question-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Gallo-Italian_box_must_be_rearranged" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Gallo-Italian_box_must_be_rearranged"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>Gallo-Italian box must be rearranged</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Gallo-Italian_box_must_be_rearranged-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-How_should_I_add_dialects?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#How_should_I_add_dialects?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>How should I add dialects?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-How_should_I_add_dialects?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-No_brain_listing" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#No_brain_listing"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11</span> <span>No brain listing</span> </div> </a> <ul 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vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#merging_of_Romance_languages_and_Italic_languages_(ancient)_templates"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">14</span> <span>merging of Romance languages and Italic languages (ancient) templates</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-merging_of_Romance_languages_and_Italic_languages_(ancient)_templates-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Overhauled_Langues_d'oïl_section,_forgot_to_mention_this_in_previous_edit_summary" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Overhauled_Langues_d'oïl_section,_forgot_to_mention_this_in_previous_edit_summary"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15</span> <span>Overhauled Langues d'oïl section, forgot to mention this in previous edit summary</span> </div> </a> <span 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If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Languages</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Languages</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">language articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Clipboard.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Clipboard.svg/40px-Clipboard.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Clipboard.svg/60px-Clipboard.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Clipboard.svg/80px-Clipboard.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This template was considered for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_policy" title="Wikipedia:Deletion policy">deletion</a> on <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2020-05-30">2020 May 30</span>. The result of the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2020_May_30#Template:Romance_languages" title="Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 May 30">discussion</a></b> was "<b>Keep seperate</b>".</td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="List_-_languages_and_dialects" data-mw-thread-id="h-List_-_languages_and_dialects-2007-02-19T14:24:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-List_-_languages_and_dialects-2007-02-19T14:24:00.000Z"></span>List - languages and dialects<span data-mw-comment-end="h-List_-_languages_and_dialects-2007-02-19T14:24:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: List - languages and dialects"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Joeldl-2007-02-19T14:24:00.000Z-List_-_languages_and_dialects"></span>This list contains elements like "Rioplatense Spanish", "Quebec French", etc. These things don't belong here. They're not languages. Only alternate names for languages should be included. <a href="/wiki/User:Joeldl" title="User:Joeldl">Joeldl</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Joeldl-2007-02-19T14:24:00.000Z-List_-_languages_and_dialects" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:24, 19 February 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Joeldl-2007-02-19T14:24:00.000Z-List_-_languages_and_dialects"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Joeldl-2007-02-19T14:24:00.000Z-List_-_languages_and_dialects"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Man_vyi-2007-05-21T10:32:00.000Z-List_-_languages_and_dialects"></span>I propose this: </p><p><a href="/wiki/Aragonese_language" title="Aragonese language">Aragonese</a> • <a href="/wiki/Aromanian_language" title="Aromanian language">Aromanian</a> • <a href="/wiki/Franco-Proven%C3%A7al_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Franco-Provençal language">Arpitan or Franco-Provençal</a> • <a href="/wiki/Astur-Leonese_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Astur-Leonese language">Astur-Leonese</a> • <a href="/wiki/Catalan_language" title="Catalan language">Catalan-Valencian-Balear</a> • <a href="/wiki/Corsican_language" title="Corsican language">Corsican</a> (<a href="/wiki/Gallurese" title="Gallurese">Gallurese</a>, <a href="/wiki/Sassarese" class="mw-redirect" title="Sassarese">Sassarese</a>) • <a href="/wiki/Dalmatian_language" title="Dalmatian language">Dalmatian</a> • <a href="/wiki/Emiliano-Romagnolo" class="mw-redirect" title="Emiliano-Romagnolo">Emiliano-Romagnolo</a> • <a href="/wiki/French_language" title="French language">French</a> (other <a href="/wiki/Langues_d%27o%C3%AFl" title="Langues d'oïl">langues d'oïl</a> [ <a href="/wiki/Picard" class="mw-disambig" title="Picard">Picard</a>, <a href="/wiki/Walloon" class="mw-disambig" title="Walloon">Walloon</a>, <a href="/wiki/Lorrain" class="mw-disambig" title="Lorrain">Lorrain</a>, <a href="/wiki/Norman_language" title="Norman language">Norman</a> and <a href="/wiki/J%C3%A8rriais" title="Jèrriais">Jèrriais</a>, <a href="/wiki/Champenois" class="mw-redirect" title="Champenois">Champenois</a>, <a href="/wiki/Burgundian" class="mw-disambig" title="Burgundian">Burgundian</a>, <a href="/wiki/Franc-Comtois" class="mw-redirect" title="Franc-Comtois">Franc-Comtois</a>, <a href="/wiki/Gallo" class="mw-disambig" title="Gallo">Gallo</a>, <a href="/wiki/Poitevin-Saintongeais" class="mw-redirect" title="Poitevin-Saintongeais">Poitevin-Saintongeais</a> ], <a href="/wiki/French_creole" class="mw-disambig" title="French creole">French creole</a>) • <a href="/wiki/Friulian_language" title="Friulian language">Friulian</a> • <a href="/wiki/Galician_language" title="Galician language">Galician</a> and <a href="/wiki/Fala_language" title="Fala language">Fala</a> • <a href="/wiki/Istriot_language" title="Istriot language">Istriot</a> • <a href="/wiki/Istro-Romanian_language" title="Istro-Romanian language">Istro-Romanian</a> • <a href="/wiki/Italian_language" title="Italian language">Italian</a> (<a href="/wiki/Central_Italian" title="Central Italian">Central Italian</a> and <a href="/wiki/Romanesco" class="mw-disambig" title="Romanesco">Romanesco</a>, <a href="/wiki/Tuscan" class="mw-disambig" title="Tuscan">Tuscan</a>) • <a href="/wiki/Judeo-Italian_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Judeo-Italian language">Judeo-Italian</a> • <a href="/wiki/Ladin_language" title="Ladin language">Ladin</a> • <a href="/wiki/Ladino_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Ladino language">Ladino</a> • <a href="/wiki/Ligurian_language_(Romance)" class="mw-redirect" title="Ligurian language (Romance)">Ligurian</a> (<a href="/wiki/Genoese_dialect" title="Genoese dialect">Genoese</a>, <a href="/wiki/Mon%C3%A9gasque_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Monégasque language">Monégasque</a>) • <a href="/wiki/Lombard_(linguistics)" class="mw-redirect" title="Lombard (linguistics)">Lombard</a> (<a href="/wiki/Insubric" class="mw-redirect" title="Insubric">Insubric</a> [ <a href="/wiki/Milanese" class="mw-redirect" title="Milanese">Milanese</a>, <a href="/wiki/Brianzoeu" class="mw-redirect" title="Brianzoeu">Brianzoeu</a> and <a href="/wiki/Canz%C3%A9s" class="mw-redirect" title="Canzés">Canzés</a>, <a href="/wiki/Ticinese" class="mw-disambig" title="Ticinese">Ticinese</a> ], <a href="/wiki/Orobic" class="mw-redirect" title="Orobic">Orobic</a>) • <a href="/wiki/Megleno-Romanian_language" title="Megleno-Romanian language">Megleno-Romanian</a> • <a href="/wiki/Mozarabic_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Mozarabic language">Mozarabic</a> • <a href="/wiki/Neapolitan_language" title="Neapolitan language">Neapolitan</a> • <a href="/wiki/Occitan_language" title="Occitan language">Occitan</a> • <a href="/wiki/Piedmontese_language" title="Piedmontese language">Piedmontese</a> • <a href="/wiki/Portuguese_language" title="Portuguese language">Portuguese</a> • <a href="/wiki/Daco-Romanian" class="mw-redirect" title="Daco-Romanian">Romanian-Moldovan-Vlach</a> • <a href="/wiki/Romansh" class="mw-disambig" title="Romansh">Romansh</a> • <a href="/wiki/Sardinian_language" title="Sardinian language">Sardinian</a> • <a href="/wiki/Sicilian_language" title="Sicilian language">Sicilian</a> • <a href="/wiki/Spanish_language" title="Spanish language">Spanish (Castilian)</a> • <a href="/wiki/Shuadit_language" class="mw-redirect" title="Shuadit language">Shuadit</a> • <a href="/wiki/Venetian_language" title="Venetian language">Venetian</a> (<a href="/wiki/Talian" class="mw-disambig" title="Talian">Talian</a>) </p> <dl><dd>Why? There might well be a case for listing languages by group rather than alphabetically, but I can't think of any reason for listing some languages by group and the other alphabetically. Besides, with particular reference to grouping all the Oïl languages together, surely French should be listed alphabetically with the others under O? I don't support the proposal. <a href="/wiki/User:Man_vyi" title="User:Man vyi">Man vyi</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Man_vyi-2007-05-21T10:32:00.000Z-List_-_languages_and_dialects" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Man_vyi-2007-05-21T10:32:00.000Z-List_-_languages_and_dialects"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Man_vyi-2007-05-21T10:32:00.000Z-List_-_languages_and_dialects"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Joeldl-2007-05-21T16:26:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-05-21T10:32:00.000Z"></span>I agree. Despite appearances, I didn't make the proposal above. <a href="/wiki/User:Joeldl" title="User:Joeldl">Joeldl</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Joeldl-2007-05-21T16:26:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-05-21T10:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Joeldl-2007-05-21T16:26:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-05-21T10:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Joeldl-2007-05-21T16:26:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-05-21T10:32:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-84.223.79.127-2007-07-13T15:12:00.000Z-List_-_languages_and_dialects"></span>I don't understand why some dialects are listed as languages in the alphabetical order, while Western Lombard dialects, notwithstanding they were listed just as dialects in parentheses, have been totally cancelled. I refer to the Oïl, Occitan and Spanish dialects such as: Arpitan, Astur-Leonese, Auvergnat, Aupenc, Burgundian, Champenois, Franc-Comtois, Gallo, Gascon (and Aranese subdialect), Languedocien, Limousin, Lorrain, Norman, Poitevin-Saintongeais, Picard, Provençal, Walloon. -<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:84.223.79.127&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:84.223.79.127 (page does not exist)">84.223.79.127</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-84.223.79.127-2007-07-13T15:12:00.000Z-List_-_languages_and_dialects" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-84.223.79.127-2007-07-13T15:12:00.000Z-List_-_languages_and_dialects"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-84.223.79.127-2007-07-13T15:12:00.000Z-List_-_languages_and_dialects"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Man_vyi-2007-07-13T15:25:00.000Z-84.223.79.127-2007-07-13T15:12:00.000Z"></span>Do the various Western Lombard dialects have recognised status as regional languages? It's not clear from the linked articles that this is the case. By comparison, Arpitan, Champenois, Gallo, Norman etc are administratively recognised regional languages of France, and Walloon is further a regional language of Belgium. This is by no means a hard and fast criterion for inclusion in the template, but I'd suggest that varieties of Romance that have some recognised status as "languages" should certainly be listed. <a href="/wiki/User:Man_vyi" title="User:Man vyi">Man vyi</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Man_vyi-2007-07-13T15:25:00.000Z-84.223.79.127-2007-07-13T15:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Man_vyi-2007-07-13T15:25:00.000Z-84.223.79.127-2007-07-13T15:12:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Man_vyi-2007-07-13T15:25:00.000Z-84.223.79.127-2007-07-13T15:12:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-84.223.79.127-2007-07-15T07:51:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-07-13T15:25:00.000Z"></span>Limousin is a dialect of Langue d'Oc. Like this, others are dialects of Langue d'Oïl. The distintion must be linguistic, not politic. Then, the decrets of a government can't influence Wikipedia. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:84.223.79.127&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:84.223.79.127 (page does not exist)">84.223.79.127</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-84.223.79.127-2007-07-15T07:51:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-07-13T15:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-84.223.79.127-2007-07-15T07:51:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-07-13T15:25:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-84.223.79.127-2007-07-15T07:51:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-07-13T15:25:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Man_vyi-2007-07-15T11:10:00.000Z-84.223.79.127-2007-07-15T07:51:00.000Z"></span>But the problem is that the distinction between a "dialect" and a "language" (if one must be made) is a political distinction rather than a linguistic one. <a href="/wiki/User:Man_vyi" title="User:Man vyi">Man vyi</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Man_vyi-2007-07-15T11:10:00.000Z-84.223.79.127-2007-07-15T07:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Man_vyi-2007-07-15T11:10:00.000Z-84.223.79.127-2007-07-15T07:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Man_vyi-2007-07-15T11:10:00.000Z-84.223.79.127-2007-07-15T07:51:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Steinbach-2007-08-13T17:03:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-07-13T15:25:00.000Z"></span>Some time ago, I removed the Lombard dialects from the template just for the reason I gave in the edit summary. Why list so many dialects of Lombard, and not of other Romance languages, which are similary fragmented into numerous distinct varieties? I think the template is fairly well-balanced now, with perhaps slightly too much attention for Norman (on the other hand, the Channel Island dialects are of special relevance to the English speaking community, and thsi is after all the English Wikipedia). Further, I'd also propose <i>not</i> to list Eastern and Western Lombard separately, but rather have "Lombard (Eastern · Western)". I have no idea whether the differences between Western and Eastern Lombard are big enough to consider them separate languages, but it will make the template easier to browse if you put Lombard under the letter L. <a href="/wiki/User:Steinbach" title="User:Steinbach">Steinbach <small>(fka Caesarion)</small></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Steinbach-2007-08-13T17:03:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-07-13T15:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Steinbach-2007-08-13T17:03:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-07-13T15:25:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Steinbach-2007-08-13T17:03:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-07-13T15:25:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Extremaduran_language" data-mw-thread-id="h-Extremaduran_language-2007-10-17T16:07:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Extremaduran_language-2007-10-17T16:07:00.000Z"></span>Extremaduran language<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Extremaduran_language-2007-10-17T16:07:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Extremaduran language"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Better_geta-2007-10-17T16:07:00.000Z-Extremaduran_language"></span>If nobody oppose, i´ll add <a href="/wiki/Extremaduran_language" title="Extremaduran language">Extremaduran language</a> into the asturleonese group. Greetings! <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Better_geta&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Better geta (page does not exist)">Better geta</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Better_geta-2007-10-17T16:07:00.000Z-Extremaduran_language" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Better_geta-2007-10-17T16:07:00.000Z-Extremaduran_language"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Better_geta-2007-10-17T16:07:00.000Z-Extremaduran_language"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Hierarchy" data-mw-thread-id="h-Hierarchy-2007-12-05T09:22:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Hierarchy-2007-12-05T09:22:00.000Z"></span>Hierarchy<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Hierarchy-2007-12-05T09:22:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Hierarchy"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-05T09:22:00.000Z-Hierarchy"></span>I oppose an arrangement into so-called "main" languages and "others". The place for discussing numbers of speakers is in the relevant articles. The template is for navigation and arrangement alphabetically within linguistic group should be sufficient. <a href="/wiki/User:Man_vyi" title="User:Man vyi">Man vyi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Man_vyi" title="User talk:Man vyi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Man_vyi-2007-12-05T09:22:00.000Z-Hierarchy" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-05T09:22:00.000Z-Hierarchy"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-05T09:22:00.000Z-Hierarchy"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Charvex-2007-12-10T10:44:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-05T09:22:00.000Z"></span>I strongly agree for exactly the same reasons stated above. <a href="/wiki/User:Charvex" title="User:Charvex">Charvex</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Charvex" title="User talk:Charvex">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Charvex-2007-12-10T10:44:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-05T09:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Charvex-2007-12-10T10:44:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-05T09:22:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Charvex-2007-12-10T10:44:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-05T09:22:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nergaal-2007-12-10T13:01:00.000Z-Charvex-2007-12-10T10:44:00.000Z"></span>I strongly disagree. The Italo-Western section has so many languages that it renders that section useless to someone looking thorugh it. Instead of main, there should be a categorization based on # of speakers. i.e. main ones should be instead languages with more than 10 million speakers. I am not trying to disregard other less used languages, but I still think that the template should be useful to a readed, not just a stew of languages thrown together.<a href="/wiki/User:Nergaal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Nergaal">Nergaal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nergaal" title="User talk:Nergaal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Nergaal-2007-12-10T13:01:00.000Z-Charvex-2007-12-10T10:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nergaal-2007-12-10T13:01:00.000Z-Charvex-2007-12-10T10:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nergaal-2007-12-10T13:01:00.000Z-Charvex-2007-12-10T10:44:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T16:48:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-10T13:01:00.000Z"></span>How is alphabetical order "a stew of languages thrown together"? <a href="/wiki/User:Man_vyi" title="User:Man vyi">Man vyi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Man_vyi" title="User talk:Man vyi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T16:48:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-10T13:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T16:48:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-10T13:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T16:48:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-10T13:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nergaal-2007-12-10T17:09:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T16:48:00.000Z"></span>you are intentionally missing my point. the problem is having a way to notice the more relevant language branches. the order is not the only way to label the more relevant languages; a skilled user could use colors or some other trik. the point is to make sure that the clearly-more-used languages stick out (same way the dead ones do).<a href="/wiki/User:Nergaal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Nergaal">Nergaal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nergaal" title="User talk:Nergaal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Nergaal-2007-12-10T17:09:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T16:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nergaal-2007-12-10T17:09:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T16:48:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nergaal-2007-12-10T17:09:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T16:48:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T18:47:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-10T17:09:00.000Z"></span>But why, in a navigation template, is it important for languages with more speakers and fewer speakers to be arranged separately? How does this make navigation easier than an alphabetical arrangement? <a href="/wiki/User:Man_vyi" title="User:Man vyi">Man vyi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Man_vyi" title="User talk:Man vyi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T18:47:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-10T17:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T18:47:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-10T17:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T18:47:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-10T17:09:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nergaal-2007-12-11T01:50:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T18:47:00.000Z"></span>It is not. In all the other smaller 3 sub-classes it is not necessary. but in the Western sub-group, there are so many that it is hard to get anything out of that group by looking at the template. my point is that there needs to be some sub-classification in the southern group, be it by numbers, or by some other criteria; for the sake of navigability if informativibility.<a href="/wiki/User:Nergaal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Nergaal">Nergaal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nergaal" title="User talk:Nergaal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Nergaal-2007-12-11T01:50:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T18:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nergaal-2007-12-11T01:50:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T18:47:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nergaal-2007-12-11T01:50:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-10T18:47:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-11T05:43:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-11T01:50:00.000Z"></span>So far nothing persuades me that a straightforward alphabetic arrangement should be abandoned. <a href="/wiki/User:Man_vyi" title="User:Man vyi">Man vyi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Man_vyi" title="User talk:Man vyi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Man_vyi-2007-12-11T05:43:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-11T01:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-11T05:43:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-11T01:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-11T05:43:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-11T01:50:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nergaal-2007-12-11T07:18:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-11T05:43:00.000Z"></span>you still haven't presented an argument to why the languages with more numerous speakers should not stick out from the mass of other less used languages. <a href="/wiki/User:Nergaal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Nergaal">Nergaal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nergaal" title="User talk:Nergaal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Nergaal-2007-12-11T07:18:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-11T05:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nergaal-2007-12-11T07:18:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-11T05:43:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nergaal-2007-12-11T07:18:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2007-12-11T05:43:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-11T07:50:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-11T07:18:00.000Z"></span>I had stated that in my initial post of the thread. Whether you're persuaded by it or not is a matter for you to decide, just as I remain unpersuaded by your claim that splitting languages by demographics improves navigability. <a href="/wiki/User:Man_vyi" title="User:Man vyi">Man vyi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Man_vyi" title="User talk:Man vyi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Man_vyi-2007-12-11T07:50:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-11T07:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-11T07:50:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-11T07:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Man_vyi-2007-12-11T07:50:00.000Z-Nergaal-2007-12-11T07:18:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Gallo-Italian_langauges" data-mw-thread-id="h-Gallo-Italian_langauges-2008-01-30T23:59:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Gallo-Italian_langauges-2008-01-30T23:59:00.000Z"></span>Gallo-Italian langauges<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Gallo-Italian_langauges-2008-01-30T23:59:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Gallo-Italian langauges"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-89.97.35.70-2008-01-30T23:59:00.000Z-Gallo-Italian_langauges"></span>I think Gallo Italian languages should appear amongst the main Western European languages. Firstly because they are numerically relevant (they have more speakers than Catalan), then because they form a coherent group on its own. --<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/89.97.35.70" title="Special:Contributions/89.97.35.70">89.97.35.70</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:89.97.35.70" title="User talk:89.97.35.70">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-89.97.35.70-2008-01-30T23:59:00.000Z-Gallo-Italian_langauges" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-89.97.35.70-2008-01-30T23:59:00.000Z-Gallo-Italian_langauges"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-89.97.35.70-2008-01-30T23:59:00.000Z-Gallo-Italian_langauges"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="References_for_categorisation" data-mw-thread-id="h-References_for_categorisation-2008-02-05T13:13:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-References_for_categorisation-2008-02-05T13:13:00.000Z"></span>References for categorisation<span data-mw-comment-end="h-References_for_categorisation-2008-02-05T13:13:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: References for categorisation"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/Gallurese" title="Gallurese"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Felisopus-2008-02-05T13:13:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation"></span>Gallurese</a>: <i>an evident similarity, indeed, exists between Corsican (especially southern dialects) and Gallurese, and as evident as the distance from the bordering Sardo logudorese [...] in the recent regional law (No. 26, 1997) voted by the Sardinian Parliament, the Gallurese (with the Sassarese) is not considered as a Sardinian language.</i>. <a href="https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_gallurese" class="extiw" title="it:Lingua gallurese">it:Lingua gallurese</a> <i>Nel periodo compreso tra il 1347-48 e il 1400 la Gallura si spopola a seguito di un'epidemia e di incursioni piratesche e ha inizio <b>l'insediamento di massa di numerose famiglie provenienti dal sud della Corsica</b> (allora dominio genovese) <b>che importano nella Gallura interna i propri dialetti orali</b> (ormai fortemente influenzati dall'influsso pisano e genovese in Corsica) assimilando contestualmente diversi vocaboli e toponimi dalle parlate logudoresi, (circa il 18-20% del lessico attuale), nonché alcuni termini catalani. <b>Questa immigrazione</b> è stata tra l'altro sostenuta dal governo aragonese al fine di ripopolare le deserte terre galluresi.</i> </p><p><a href="/wiki/Sassarese" class="mw-redirect" title="Sassarese">Sassarese</a>: <i>is a Southern Romance language and a <b>diasystem</b> of the Sardinian and Corsican [...] it is based on a mixture of different languages</i>. In the recente regional law Sassarese is distinct from <i>gallurese</i> and <i>sardinian</i>, it's born before gallurese from a different population, with ages of autonomous evolution. --<a href="/wiki/User:Felisopus" title="User:Felisopus">Felisopus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Felisopus" title="User talk:Felisopus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Felisopus-2008-02-05T13:13:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Felisopus-2008-02-05T13:13:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Felisopus-2008-02-05T13:13:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nergaal-2008-02-06T00:10:00.000Z-Felisopus-2008-02-05T13:13:00.000Z"></span>Provide a source for these statements. If it is such an obvious statement you should not have problems finding references. Right now there is a fairly serious reference showing the opposite. <a href="/wiki/User:Nergaal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Nergaal">Nergaal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nergaal" title="User talk:Nergaal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Nergaal-2008-02-06T00:10:00.000Z-Felisopus-2008-02-05T13:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nergaal-2008-02-06T00:10:00.000Z-Felisopus-2008-02-05T13:13:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nergaal-2008-02-06T00:10:00.000Z-Felisopus-2008-02-05T13:13:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Felisopus-2008-02-06T09:01:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-02-06T00:10:00.000Z"></span>? The sources are in the same articles i've linked! <sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> <sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-2"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> <sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-3"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup>. For Gallurese <a href="https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_gallurese" class="extiw" title="it:Lingua gallurese">this article</a> is a featured article on the italian wikipedia. --<a href="/wiki/User:Felisopus" title="User:Felisopus">Felisopus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Felisopus" title="User talk:Felisopus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Felisopus-2008-02-06T09:01:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-02-06T00:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Felisopus-2008-02-06T09:01:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-02-06T00:10:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Felisopus-2008-02-06T09:01:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-02-06T00:10:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-1"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Felisopus-2008-02-07T10:59:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation"></span>^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.regione.sardegna.it/j/v/86?v=9&c=72&s=1&file=1997026">Official Website of the Autonomous Region of Sardinia</a></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-2"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-2">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.sardegnacultura.it/linguasarda/ilsardo/altre.html"><i>Altre lingue</i></a> . Official Website of the Autonomous Region of Sardinia</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-3"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-3">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">Max Leopold Wagner, "The problem of the geographical region to be attributed to Gallurese and Sassarese" in "Neolatin Culture 3" (1943), pages 243-267 - Max Leopold Wagner, "La questione del posto da assegnare al gallurese e al sassarese" in "Cultura Neolatina 3", 1943, pp. 243-267</span> </li> </ol></div> <p><br/> </p> <figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File/Thumb"><a href="/wiki/File:Romance_20c_en.png" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Romance_20c_en.png/600px-Romance_20c_en.png" decoding="async" width="600" height="423" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Romance_20c_en.png/900px-Romance_20c_en.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Romance_20c_en.png/1200px-Romance_20c_en.png 2x" data-file-width="3331" data-file-height="2348"/></a><figcaption><i>Koryakov Yuri</i>, Based on the map published in "Koryakov Y.B. Atlas of Romance languages. Moscow, 2001.</figcaption></figure> <p>Sardinian (26), Sassarese (19) and Corsican/Gallurese (18)... --<a href="/wiki/User:Felisopus" title="User:Felisopus">Felisopus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Felisopus" title="User talk:Felisopus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Felisopus-2008-02-07T10:59:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Felisopus-2008-02-07T10:59:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Felisopus-2008-02-07T10:59:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nergaal-2008-02-07T12:26:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation"></span>Ok, I can only guess why are you holding onto this view so much. Here are my problems:</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ol><li>your references are not linked to linguistic sources</li> <li>wiki maps are the last place you should look for as references. this map in particular has an incredible amount of 'approximations'</li> <li>official sites of autonomous regions can allways be tempted to surpass scientific agreement for political reasons</li> <li>the last reference is from 1943. since then maaany categorizations have been changed</li> <li>ethnologues seems to be a quite reliable source probably based on linguists' opinions (scientifical)</li> <li>in order to 'beat' what ethnologue says, you should bring a comparably-reliable source</li></ol> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Nergaal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Nergaal">Nergaal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nergaal" title="User talk:Nergaal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Nergaal-2008-02-07T12:26:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nergaal-2008-02-07T12:26:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nergaal-2008-02-07T12:26:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation"></span> </p><p><br/><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Felisopus-2008-02-17T19:05:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation"></span> Instead, i would like to know why you involved with a classification different from the content of all articles. </p> <ol><li>My references are documents by language docs, the language policy in the region is carried out by international linguists (Roberto Bolognesi for the LSC). Where did you show that there is no language documents?</li> <li>This map is used in all articles about Romance languages. If you believe it approximate, you have to show that it is and demand its deletion, otherwise you mustn't say it. "The last place" is better than any place where is asserted the opposite view.</li> <li>These two documents were made by two different regional governments, and who know the debate on the Sardinian language knows that contrasts concern "campidanese/logudorese" and not the languages of the north. If you can not prove that there are "political" influences you mustn't say it.</li> <li>.... the references in the articles are from 1859 to 2006. And the papers do not "expire".</li> <li>Ethnologue seems wrong, as it highlighted in all the articles. Ethnologue is a pragmatic system of reference, not a bible. What you "seem" reliable, it does not become true. Especially since you have brought nothing further to prove that what Ethnologue says is true, when all articles consider the classification of Ethn about Sardinia <i>geographical</i> and not linguistic.</li> <li>To continue to restore a version you must bring the evidence to support, otherwise you mustn't say it. "I think Ethn is the most reliable" is not a evidence but a personal opinion.</li></ol> <p>--<a href="/wiki/User:Felisopus" title="User:Felisopus">Felisopus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Felisopus" title="User talk:Felisopus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Felisopus-2008-02-17T19:05:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Felisopus-2008-02-17T19:05:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Felisopus-2008-02-17T19:05:00.000Z-References_for_categorisation"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Gallo-Italian_and_Gallo-Rhetian_languages" data-mw-thread-id="h-Gallo-Italian_and_Gallo-Rhetian_languages-2008-02-27T17:10:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Gallo-Italian_and_Gallo-Rhetian_languages-2008-02-27T17:10:00.000Z"></span>Gallo-Italian and Gallo-Rhetian languages<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Gallo-Italian_and_Gallo-Rhetian_languages-2008-02-27T17:10:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Gallo-Italian and Gallo-Rhetian languages"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-89.97.35.70-2008-02-27T17:10:00.000Z-Gallo-Italian_and_Gallo-Rhetian_languages"></span>They form a subgroup on their own, the <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Romance_languages">Gallo-Romance</a> languages, as opposed to <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibero-Romance">Ibero-Romance</a>, so another subgroup has to be introduced. </p><p>Occitan besides is a Gallo-Romance language. --<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/89.97.35.70" title="Special:Contributions/89.97.35.70">89.97.35.70</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:89.97.35.70" title="User talk:89.97.35.70">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-89.97.35.70-2008-02-27T17:10:00.000Z-Gallo-Italian_and_Gallo-Rhetian_languages" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-89.97.35.70-2008-02-27T17:10:00.000Z-Gallo-Italian_and_Gallo-Rhetian_languages"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-89.97.35.70-2008-02-27T17:10:00.000Z-Gallo-Italian_and_Gallo-Rhetian_languages"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Original_research?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Original_research?-2008-03-17T09:52:00.000Z"><span id="Original_research.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Original_research?-2008-03-17T09:52:00.000Z"></span>Original research?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Original_research?-2008-03-17T09:52:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Original research?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T09:52:00.000Z-Original_research?"></span>This template seems to introduce its very own take on the <a href="/wiki/Romance_languages" title="Romance languages">Romance languages</a> and does so without providing a single source. Are we to understand that <a href="/wiki/Italian" class="mw-disambig" title="Italian">Italian</a> is closer related to <a href="/wiki/French" class="mw-disambig" title="French">French</a> than to <a href="/wiki/Corsican" class="mw-disambig" title="Corsican">Corsican</a>? Any linguist would find the claim utterly absurd, but this template doesn't shy away from it. And how come Aragonese ended up in a category of its own? What happened to the well-known distinction between Eastern and Western Romance languages? While the Italo-Western theory is a well established theory, it is by no means the only one. This template varies between some factually correct information, some unsourced preferences for one theory over another <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a> and some obvious errors. <a href="/wiki/User:JdeJ" title="User:JdeJ">JdeJ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JdeJ" title="User talk:JdeJ">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T09:52:00.000Z-Original_research?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T09:52:00.000Z-Original_research?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T09:52:00.000Z-Original_research?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nergaal-2008-03-17T11:17:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T09:52:00.000Z"></span>By not providing a single source you mean you are blind and cannot read? <a href="/wiki/User:Nergaal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Nergaal">Nergaal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nergaal" title="User talk:Nergaal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Nergaal-2008-03-17T11:17:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T09:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nergaal-2008-03-17T11:17:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T09:52:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nergaal-2008-03-17T11:17:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T09:52:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:12:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-03-17T11:17:00.000Z"></span>First of all, I recommend you to change your behaviour and to read <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPA">WP:NPA</a>. Second, Ethnologue is a database on how many people are expected to speak certain languages, it is <i>not</i> a scholarly source for classifying languages. <a href="/wiki/User:JdeJ" title="User:JdeJ">JdeJ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JdeJ" title="User talk:JdeJ">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:12:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-03-17T11:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:12:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-03-17T11:17:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:12:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-03-17T11:17:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:03:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:12:00.000Z"></span>First you said that there are no sources, now you say that the source is not a good one. If you decide on the latter, then bring a source saying that either ethnologue is not reliable or that the enthnologue is wrong in this case. <a href="/wiki/User:Nergaal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Nergaal">Nergaal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nergaal" title="User talk:Nergaal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:03:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:03:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:12:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:03:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:12:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:10:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:12:00.000Z"></span>Also, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ethnologue.com/biblio_docs/biblio_intro.asp#intro">this</a>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ethnologue.com/ethno_docs/bibliography.asp">this</a> and <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ethnologue.com/ethno_docs/introduction.asp">this</a> tend to contradict what you are saying. <a href="/wiki/User:Nergaal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Nergaal">Nergaal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nergaal" title="User talk:Nergaal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:10:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:10:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:12:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:10:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:12:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-18T09:01:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:10:00.000Z"></span>You mean that Ethnologue claiming that Ethnologue is great is a neutral source? The linguistic community around the world begs to differ. To begin with, we have the case in question. Ethnologue classifies Italian as closer to French than to Corsican, that's the very topic here and <a href="/wiki/User:Nergaal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Nergaal">Nergaal</a> hasn't yet commented on it. There's an obvious error and it's not made on some little known language group, but on one of the largest and best known language families in the world. To be perfectly honest, I've found Ethnologue being wrong in most language families and most countries. But don't take just my word for it, here's a British linguist outlining in detail all the errors occuring within the UK. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.leeds.ac.uk/english/staff/afg/triang2.doc">[1]</a>. As he points out, Ethnologue lacks expertice, contains many obvious errors and seems to be unaware of the classification of even well-known languages.<a href="/wiki/User:JdeJ" title="User:JdeJ">JdeJ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JdeJ" title="User talk:JdeJ">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-JdeJ-2008-03-18T09:01:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:10:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-18T09:01:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:10:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JdeJ-2008-03-18T09:01:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:10:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T22:44:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-18T09:01:00.000Z"></span>Do you have an alternative resource supporting your statements? Or is it just personal research? <a href="/wiki/User:Nergaal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Nergaal">Nergaal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nergaal" title="User talk:Nergaal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T22:44:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-18T09:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T22:44:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-18T09:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T22:44:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-18T09:01:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-19T21:57:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-03-18T22:44:00.000Z"></span>May I suggest that you take the time to read through my post before commenting on it the next time? If you had done so, you would have found the source, a rather detailed descriptions of all the errors Ethnologue make. And that's just in one country, they make other mistakes elsewhere. Such as claiming that Italian would be closer to French than to Corsican. Open any book on the Romance languages (I recommend Routledge's The Romance Languages) and read for yourself. <a href="/wiki/User:JdeJ" title="User:JdeJ">JdeJ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JdeJ" title="User talk:JdeJ">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-JdeJ-2008-03-19T21:57:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-03-18T22:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:57, 19 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-19T21:57:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-03-18T22:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JdeJ-2008-03-19T21:57:00.000Z-Nergaal-2008-03-18T22:44:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nergaal-2008-03-19T23:55:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-19T21:57:00.000Z"></span>Seems that sarcasm does not work here. I asked for a source for your sttement. The link you provided is not published in a journal, is hosted on a link that I have no reason to believe it is not personal, and is 7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! years old. All in all it is definately not the most reliable source. The ones below: why is Encarta more reliable? why is a random map on a course website at Groeningen a good reference? it is almost a personal website; and the last one says that Corsican is "close to the central Italian dialects"; it does not necessary mean it is not in a different subgroup. Do you have a published paper in a journal or something that cannot be interpreted loosely? <a href="/wiki/User:Nergaal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Nergaal">Nergaal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nergaal" title="User talk:Nergaal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Nergaal-2008-03-19T23:55:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-19T21:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nergaal-2008-03-19T23:55:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-19T21:57:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nergaal-2008-03-19T23:55:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-19T21:57:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-20T00:16:00.000Z-Original_research?"></span>No, sarcasm requires certain skills when delivered so I recommend you try to focus on more fact based writing. It is nice to know that you don't agree with any sources that don't share your view. Thanks for the umpteen exclamation marks, they really made all the difference to your argument. I note in passing that you yourself, for all your craving for sources, haven't provided a single source whereas I've provided quite a lot already. Ethnologue is not an academic source on linguistic relationships. They try to put together information, just like Wikipedia, and sometimes they fail. If you have any source showing that Italian is closer to French than to Corsican, I'm very interested in reading it. Untill then, I consider my "bad" but existing sources superior to your excellent but imaginary sources. As for published material, I can refer to these two standard references on Romance languages <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.amazon.com/Romance-Languages-Cambridge-Language-Surveys/dp/0521281393/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205972052&sr=8-1">[2]</a></dd></dl> <p>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.amazon.com/Romance-Languages-Martin-Harris/dp/0195208293/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205972052&sr=8-2">[3]</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:JdeJ" title="User:JdeJ">JdeJ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JdeJ" title="User talk:JdeJ">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-JdeJ-2008-03-20T00:16:00.000Z-Original_research?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-20T00:16:00.000Z-Original_research?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JdeJ-2008-03-20T00:16:00.000Z-Original_research?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Man_vyi-2008-03-17T10:45:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-20T00:16:00.000Z"></span>Personally, I much preferred the straighforward alphabetical arrangement we had before - much simpler for navigation, and the articles are the place to explain the various theories of categorisation. <a href="/wiki/User:Man_vyi" title="User:Man vyi">Man vyi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Man_vyi" title="User talk:Man vyi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Man_vyi-2008-03-17T10:45:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-20T00:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Man_vyi-2008-03-17T10:45:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-20T00:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Man_vyi-2008-03-17T10:45:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-20T00:16:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T16:28:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2008-03-17T10:45:00.000Z"></span>I agree with <a href="/wiki/User:Man_vyi" title="User:Man vyi">Man vyi</a>, going back to the previous alphabetical arrangement would be an improvement over the template we have now. <a href="/wiki/User:JdeJ" title="User:JdeJ">JdeJ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JdeJ" title="User talk:JdeJ">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T16:28:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2008-03-17T10:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T16:28:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2008-03-17T10:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T16:28:00.000Z-Man_vyi-2008-03-17T10:45:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Aeusoes1-2008-04-11T01:35:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T16:28:00.000Z"></span>I'm in favor of this as well. As cool as this template is with the sub-classifications, it gets to a bit of contention in borderline cases. Unless I'm mistaken and there are no borderline cases and linguists generally agree on the subclassification of all Romance varieties. — <a href="/wiki/User:Aeusoes1" title="User:Aeusoes1">Æµ§œš¹</a> <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aeusoes1" title="User talk:Aeusoes1"><small><sub>[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]</sub></small></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Aeusoes1-2008-04-11T01:35:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T16:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Aeusoes1-2008-04-11T01:35:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T16:28:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Aeusoes1-2008-04-11T01:35:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T16:28:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Academic_sources_contradicting_the_template" data-mw-thread-id="h-Academic_sources_contradicting_the_template-Original_research?-2008-03-17T12:33:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Academic_sources_contradicting_the_template-Original_research?-2008-03-17T12:33:00.000Z"></span>Academic sources contradicting the template<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Academic_sources_contradicting_the_template-Original_research?-2008-03-17T12:33:00.000Z"></span></h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Academic sources contradicting the template"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:33:00.000Z-Academic_sources_contradicting_the_template"></span>I'll be happy to include references from some proper academic books on this subject, none of which classifies Corsican as closer to Sardinian than to Italian, but here are just a few sources right away to show that the definition used in this template is at very least contested. In reality, it's an invention of Ethnologue and not based on any linguistic facts. <a href="/wiki/University_of_Groningen" title="University of Groningen">University of Groningen</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.rug.nl/let/onderwijs/talenenculturen/romaansetalenculturen/index?lang=en">[4]</a> <a href="/wiki/Encarta" title="Encarta">Encarta</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761560079/italian_language.html">[5]</a> Eurolang [<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.eurolang.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=72&Itemid=52&lang=en">[6]</a>] <a href="/wiki/User:JdeJ" title="User:JdeJ">JdeJ</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JdeJ" title="User talk:JdeJ">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:33:00.000Z-Academic_sources_contradicting_the_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:33:00.000Z-Academic_sources_contradicting_the_template"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:33:00.000Z-Academic_sources_contradicting_the_template"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:13:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:33:00.000Z"></span>Isn't Encarta just an encyclopedia? <a href="/wiki/User:Nergaal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Nergaal">Nergaal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Nergaal" title="User talk:Nergaal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:13:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:13, 18 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:13:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Nergaal-2008-03-18T00:13:00.000Z-JdeJ-2008-03-17T12:33:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Simple_question" data-mw-thread-id="h-Simple_question-2008-09-16T22:02:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Simple_question-2008-09-16T22:02:00.000Z"></span>Simple question<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Simple_question-2008-09-16T22:02:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Simple question"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-87.18.189.80-2008-09-16T22:02:00.000Z-Simple_question"></span>Why some languages are il bold? Bye --<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/87.18.189.80" title="Special:Contributions/87.18.189.80">87.18.189.80</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:87.18.189.80&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:87.18.189.80 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-87.18.189.80-2008-09-16T22:02:00.000Z-Simple_question" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-87.18.189.80-2008-09-16T22:02:00.000Z-Simple_question"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-87.18.189.80-2008-09-16T22:02:00.000Z-Simple_question"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Aeusoes1-2008-09-17T03:41:00.000Z-87.18.189.80-2008-09-16T22:02:00.000Z"></span>It says at the bottom of the template: "Italics indicate extinct languages; bold indicates languages with more than 5 million speakers." — <a href="/wiki/User:Aeusoes1" title="User:Aeusoes1">Æµ§œš¹</a> <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aeusoes1" title="User talk:Aeusoes1"><small><sub>[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]</sub></small></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Aeusoes1-2008-09-17T03:41:00.000Z-87.18.189.80-2008-09-16T22:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Aeusoes1-2008-09-17T03:41:00.000Z-87.18.189.80-2008-09-16T22:02:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Aeusoes1-2008-09-17T03:41:00.000Z-87.18.189.80-2008-09-16T22:02:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Gallo-Italian_box_must_be_rearranged" data-mw-thread-id="h-Gallo-Italian_box_must_be_rearranged-2009-01-12T11:08:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Gallo-Italian_box_must_be_rearranged-2009-01-12T11:08:00.000Z"></span>Gallo-Italian box must be rearranged<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Gallo-Italian_box_must_be_rearranged-2009-01-12T11:08:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Gallo-Italian box must be rearranged"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fertuno-2009-01-12T11:08:00.000Z-Gallo-Italian_box_must_be_rearranged"></span>Could someone edit the <a href="/wiki/Gallo-Italian" class="mw-redirect" title="Gallo-Italian">Gallo-Italian</a> box please? It should show that there are actually two families of Gallo-Italian languages (as you can read in the respective Wikipedia articles): <a href="/wiki/Gallo-Italic" class="mw-redirect" title="Gallo-Italic">Gallo-Italic</a> (not to be confused with the whole Gallo-Italian) and <a href="/wiki/Venetian_Language" class="mw-redirect" title="Venetian Language">Venetian</a>. Those families are often considered a language on its own right, such as Catalan or Occitan, with different dialects within them. So the template should be something like that: </p> <dl><dd>Gallo Italian <dl><dd>Gallo Italic <dl><dd>Monégasque, Ligurian, Piedmontese, Eastern Lombard, Western Lombard, Gallo-Siculo, Emiliano Romagnolo</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Venetian</dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>--<a href="/wiki/User:Fertuno" title="User:Fertuno">Fertuno</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fertuno" title="User talk:Fertuno">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Fertuno-2009-01-12T11:08:00.000Z-Gallo-Italian_box_must_be_rearranged" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:08, 12 January 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fertuno-2009-01-12T11:08:00.000Z-Gallo-Italian_box_must_be_rearranged"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fertuno-2009-01-12T11:08:00.000Z-Gallo-Italian_box_must_be_rearranged"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="How_should_I_add_dialects?" data-mw-thread-id="h-How_should_I_add_dialects?-2009-11-26T12:47:00.000Z"><span id="How_should_I_add_dialects.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-How_should_I_add_dialects?-2009-11-26T12:47:00.000Z"></span>How should I add dialects?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-How_should_I_add_dialects?-2009-11-26T12:47:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: How should I add dialects?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cnoguera-2009-11-26T12:47:00.000Z-How_should_I_add_dialects?"></span>Catalan language is lacking important dialects in this template. It tried to start adding them, but it destroyed the format of the table. Can somebody help? Thanks. --<a href="/wiki/User:Cnoguera" title="User:Cnoguera">Carles Noguera</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cnoguera" title="User talk:Cnoguera">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Cnoguera-2009-11-26T12:47:00.000Z-How_should_I_add_dialects?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:47, 26 November 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cnoguera-2009-11-26T12:47:00.000Z-How_should_I_add_dialects?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cnoguera-2009-11-26T12:47:00.000Z-How_should_I_add_dialects?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="No_brain_listing" data-mw-thread-id="h-No_brain_listing"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-No_brain_listing"></span>No brain listing<span data-mw-comment-end="h-No_brain_listing"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: No brain listing"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>this article is purely idiotic. the subdivisions of Portuguese and Spanish were done by someone who is illiterate. Not relevant dialects are listed, just because these are different countries or continents. And comparing that with the more complex situation of Italian or even French, it is mind-buggling. Will anyone clean this? --<a href="/wiki/User:PedroPVZ" title="User:PedroPVZ">Pedro</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PedroPVZ" title="User talk:PedroPVZ">talk</a>) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Sardinian" data-mw-thread-id="h-Sardinian-2012-09-07T01:58:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Sardinian-2012-09-07T01:58:00.000Z"></span>Sardinian<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Sardinian-2012-09-07T01:58:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: Sardinian"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-62.10.240.235-2012-09-07T01:58:00.000Z-Sardinian"></span>I think is quite absurd that Sardinian is related to eastern romance languages in this template! you should modify it. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/62.10.240.235" title="Special:Contributions/62.10.240.235">62.10.240.235</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:62.10.240.235&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:62.10.240.235 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-62.10.240.235-2012-09-07T01:58:00.000Z-Sardinian" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:58, 7 September 2012 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-62.10.240.235-2012-09-07T01:58:00.000Z-Sardinian"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-62.10.240.235-2012-09-07T01:58:00.000Z-Sardinian"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Felisopus-2012-11-10T18:22:00.000Z-62.10.240.235-2012-09-07T01:58:00.000Z"></span>Sardinian is only <i>grouped</i> with eastern romance languages, because they are the two smaller groups. The title clearly says "Eastern <i>and</i> Sardinian". --<a href="/wiki/User:Felisopus" title="User:Felisopus">Felisopus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Felisopus" title="User talk:Felisopus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Felisopus-2012-11-10T18:22:00.000Z-62.10.240.235-2012-09-07T01:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:22, 10 November 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Felisopus-2012-11-10T18:22:00.000Z-62.10.240.235-2012-09-07T01:58:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Felisopus-2012-11-10T18:22:00.000Z-62.10.240.235-2012-09-07T01:58:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Venetian" data-mw-thread-id="h-Venetian-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Venetian-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z"></span>Venetian<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Venetian-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=14" title="Edit section: Venetian"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Carnby-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z-Venetian"></span>In Italian linguistic sources no important scholar considers Venetian to be a Gallo-Italic language. It's considered just North Italian, and belonging to a sister group of Gallo-Italic.--<a href="/wiki/User:Carnby" title="User:Carnby">Carnby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carnby" title="User talk:Carnby">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Carnby-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z-Venetian" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:50, 8 March 2013 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Carnby-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z-Venetian"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Carnby-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z-Venetian"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jeppiz-2013-03-08T20:07:00.000Z-Carnby-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z"></span>Good, kindly provide sources for that.<a href="/wiki/User:Jeppiz" title="User:Jeppiz">Jeppiz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jeppiz" title="User talk:Jeppiz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Jeppiz-2013-03-08T20:07:00.000Z-Carnby-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:07, 8 March 2013 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jeppiz-2013-03-08T20:07:00.000Z-Carnby-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jeppiz-2013-03-08T20:07:00.000Z-Carnby-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Carnby-2013-03-09T23:33:00.000Z-Jeppiz-2013-03-08T20:07:00.000Z"></span>I will cite the books (In Italian) I studied at the university (I have a degree in Linguistics).</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>«I dialetti settentrionali formano un blocco abbastanza compatto con molti tratti comuni che li accostano, oltre che tra loro, qualche volta anche alla parlate cosiddette ladine e alle lingue galloromanze [...] Alcuni fenomeni morfologici innovativi sono pure abbastanza largamente comuni, come la doppia serie pronominale soggetto (non sempre in tutte le persone)[...] <b>Ma più spesso il veneto si distacca dal gruppo, lasciando così da una parte tutti gli altri dialetti, detti gallo-italici</b>.»</dd> <dd>(Lorenzo Renzi, <i>Nuova introduzione alla filologia romanza</i>, Bologna, Il Mulino, 1994<sup>2</sup>, p. 176)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>«Col nome di <i>dialetti settentrionali</i> o <i>alto-italiani</i> intendiamo <b>i dialetti gallo-italici, il Veneto e l'Istriano</b> [<i>lege</i>: <a href="/wiki/Istriot_language" title="Istriot language">Istriot language</a>].»</dd> <dd>(Carlo Tagliavini, <i>Le origni delle lingue neolatine</i>, Bologna, Pàtron, 1972<sup>6</sup>, p. 396)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Check also the <i>Carta dei dialetti d'Italia</i> by Giovan Battista Pellegrini (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.italica.rai.it/principali/lingua/bruni/mappe/flash/regionalok.htm">here</a>).</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>--<a href="/wiki/User:Carnby" title="User:Carnby">Carnby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Carnby" title="User talk:Carnby">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Carnby-2013-03-09T23:33:00.000Z-Jeppiz-2013-03-08T20:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:33, 9 March 2013 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Carnby-2013-03-09T23:33:00.000Z-Jeppiz-2013-03-08T20:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Carnby-2013-03-09T23:33:00.000Z-Jeppiz-2013-03-08T20:07:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jeppiz-2013-03-09T23:42:00.000Z-Carnby-2013-03-09T23:33:00.000Z"></span>Thanks, these are good sources and I've restored your version.<a href="/wiki/User:Jeppiz" title="User:Jeppiz">Jeppiz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jeppiz" title="User talk:Jeppiz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Jeppiz-2013-03-09T23:42:00.000Z-Carnby-2013-03-09T23:33:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:42, 9 March 2013 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jeppiz-2013-03-09T23:42:00.000Z-Carnby-2013-03-09T23:33:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jeppiz-2013-03-09T23:42:00.000Z-Carnby-2013-03-09T23:33:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Liviojavi-20221121005000-Carnby-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Jeppiz" title="User:Jeppiz">Jeppiz</a>, that’s in older linguistics, the sources you provided are strictly related to those partly-obsolete studies, or linked to the controversial concept of "primary/secondary Romance dialect". I don’t mean "obsolete" in a denial sense, but studies improved since, so did the proper terminology used to define those tongues. If there were no discussions about the classification of Venetian, I’d surely rather suggest the usage of Gallo-Italic for the first box, and the division into <b>Gallo-Italic proper</b> and <b>others</b> in its sub-branches, but in order to keep most arguments away I’ve come to demand a change: also labelling Gallo-Italic languages as <b>North Italian</b> is misleading, as the lemma "Italian" is mostly used referring to what concerns the Italian language, or Italy as a whole compact thing. People may be led readers to think Gallo-Italic languages are dialects of the Italian languages, or somehow well-developed varieties of this. I therefore encourage a change, maybe <b>totally dividing</b> Gallo-Italic and Venetian, as shown in the introduction paragraph of the <a href="/wiki/Romance_languages" title="Romance languages">Romance languages</a> voice.</dd> <dd>--~~~~ <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Liviojavi&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Liviojavi (page does not exist)">Liviojavi</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Liviojavi" title="User talk:Liviojavi">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Liviojavi-20221121005000-Carnby-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:50, 21 November 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Liviojavi-20221121005000-Carnby-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Liviojavi-20221121005000-Carnby-2013-03-08T19:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="merging_of_Romance_languages_and_Italic_languages_(ancient)_templates" data-mw-thread-id="h-merging_of_Romance_languages_and_Italic_languages_(ancient)_templates-2020-05-18T07:14:00.000Z"><span id="merging_of_Romance_languages_and_Italic_languages_.28ancient.29_templates"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-merging_of_Romance_languages_and_Italic_languages_(ancient)_templates-2020-05-18T07:14:00.000Z"></span>merging of Romance languages and Italic languages (ancient) templates<span data-mw-comment-end="h-merging_of_Romance_languages_and_Italic_languages_(ancient)_templates-2020-05-18T07:14:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=15" title="Edit section: merging of Romance languages and Italic languages (ancient) templates"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-PK2-2020-05-18T07:14:00.000Z-merging_of_Romance_languages_and_Italic_languages_(ancient)_templates"></span>Do you think this template should be merged with the <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Italic_languages" title="Template:Italic languages">Italic languages</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> template, since all the <a href="/wiki/Romance_languages" title="Romance languages">Romance languages</a> descend from <a href="/wiki/Vulgar_Latin" title="Vulgar Latin">Vulgar Latin</a>, an Italic language, or should they remain separate? -- <a href="/wiki/User:PK2" title="User:PK2">PK2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:PK2" title="User talk:PK2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-PK2-2020-05-18T07:14:00.000Z-merging_of_Romance_languages_and_Italic_languages_(ancient)_templates" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:14, 18 May 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-PK2-2020-05-18T07:14:00.000Z-merging_of_Romance_languages_and_Italic_languages_(ancient)_templates"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-PK2-2020-05-18T07:14:00.000Z-merging_of_Romance_languages_and_Italic_languages_(ancient)_templates"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Overhauled_Langues_d'oïl_section,_forgot_to_mention_this_in_previous_edit_summary" data-mw-thread-id="h-Overhauled_Langues_d'oïl_section,_forgot_to_mention_this_in_previous_edit_summa-2022-05-23T17:25:00.000Z"><span id="Overhauled_Langues_d.27o.C3.AFl_section.2C_forgot_to_mention_this_in_previous_edit_summary"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Overhauled_Langues_d'oïl_section,_forgot_to_mention_this_in_previous_edit_summa-2022-05-23T17:25:00.000Z"></span>Overhauled Langues d'oïl section, forgot to mention this in previous edit summary<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Overhauled_Langues_d'oïl_section,_forgot_to_mention_this_in_previous_edit_summa-2022-05-23T17:25:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=16" title="Edit section: Overhauled Langues d'oïl section, forgot to mention this in previous edit summary"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-23T17:25:00.000Z-Overhauled_Langues_d'oïl_section,_forgot_to_mention_this_in_previous_edit_summa"></span>Just so y'all are aware, I took the time to overhaul the Langues d'oïl section <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Romance_languages&oldid=1089414426">here</a>, I forgot to mention it in the edit summary, so I had to put it here. ~Cherri of <a href="/wiki/User:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User:Arctic Circle System">Arctic Circle System</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User talk:Arctic Circle System">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-23T17:25:00.000Z-Overhauled_Langues_d'oïl_section,_forgot_to_mention_this_in_previous_edit_summa" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:25, 23 May 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-23T17:25:00.000Z-Overhauled_Langues_d'oïl_section,_forgot_to_mention_this_in_previous_edit_summa"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-23T17:25:00.000Z-Overhauled_Langues_d'oïl_section,_forgot_to_mention_this_in_previous_edit_summa"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Inclusion_of_dialects" data-mw-thread-id="h-Inclusion_of_dialects-2022-05-24T20:18:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Inclusion_of_dialects-2022-05-24T20:18:00.000Z"></span>Inclusion of dialects<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Inclusion_of_dialects-2022-05-24T20:18:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=17" title="Edit section: Inclusion of dialects"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-24T20:18:00.000Z-Inclusion_of_dialects"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User:Arctic Circle System">Arctic Circle System</a>:</span> First, good work in trying to improve coverage here. However, I have some concerns of template bloat. A Navbox is not necessarily for every single article related to a topic (that's categories); it should be focused on just the most relevant ones. It does not have to be "complete". To that extent, I'm not sure about adding very specific dialects that have short, stubby articles. I think links to articles like <a href="/wiki/Spanish_dialects_and_varieties" title="Spanish dialects and varieties">Spanish dialects and varieties</a> and <a href="/wiki/Romanian_dialects" title="Romanian dialects">Romanian dialects</a> is good, but we don't need the full list here. This template is on Romance languages and is already very long; adding every single dialect will just dull the focus from the most relevant links, which is the top-level languages. Also, non-existent articles are even worse than short stubby ones; as discussed over Discord, red links aren't really appropriate in the long-term on navboxes. Do you think there's any likelihood of a <a href="/w/index.php?title=Frankish_language_(O%C3%AFl)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Frankish language (Oïl) (page does not exist)">Frankish language (Oïl)</a> article being made in the near future, say the next three months or so? Does the French wiki have an article on it? Is there sufficient RS coverage of it as a grouping worthy of a separate article? If there's no plans to make such an article, then it shouldn't be linked. Even if the article might have long-term possibility, can always let the article come first, and add it to the navbox afterward. </p><p>Now, this isn't to say that improving coverage of dialects isn't a good thing, it is good... but... already huge navboxes aren't really the right place. I'd think that cleaning up and/or creating the dialect articles would be a better spot. It also might be reasonable to create more specific navboxes, and only use them on the dialect articles themselves. For example, I could see a template like <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Gallo-Romance_languages_and_dialects" title="Template:Gallo-Romance languages and dialects">Gallo-Romance languages and dialects</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> that did have every single dialect, and was placed on various langues d'oil articles. The same perhaps with Romanian dialects - a small template is fine! But that's just me. <a href="/wiki/User:SnowFire" title="User:SnowFire">SnowFire</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SnowFire" title="User talk:SnowFire">talk</a>) </p> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:SnowFire" title="User:SnowFire">SnowFire</a>:</span> I'm... Honestly not sure whether we'll be able to make a <a href="/w/index.php?title=Frankish_language_(O%C3%AFl)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Frankish language (Oïl) (page does not exist)">Frankish language (Oïl)</a> or <a href="/w/index.php?title=Frankish_zone&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Frankish zone (page does not exist)">Frankish zone</a> article any time soon (or even a more fleshed out section somewhere). A lot of mental health stuff tends to get in the way of us creating articles. I'm not even sure Frankish is an Oïl language per se more than it is a group of Oïl languages or dialects or... Whatever the <a href="/wiki/Langues_d%27o%C3%AFl" title="Langues d'oïl">Langues d'oïl</a> are. Though should all dialects be removed from the template? I'm not sure. ~Red of <a href="/wiki/User:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User:Arctic Circle System">Arctic Circle System</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User talk:Arctic Circle System">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-24T20:18:00.000Z-Inclusion_of_dialects" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:18, 24 May 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-24T20:18:00.000Z-Inclusion_of_dialects"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-24T20:18:00.000Z-Inclusion_of_dialects"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SnowFire-2022-05-25T14:32:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-24T20:18:00.000Z"></span>Well, like I said, I'm not opposed to adding better linking between the dialects. I'm not sure this is the place to do it - as the template title says, this is "Romance languages", not "Romance languages and dialects". And yes, the line between a language & a dialect isn't always obvious. You are the one adding dialects yourself, so if you aren't sure, then maybe they shouldn't be added here - they can be added elsewhere, perhaps? I already hypothesized a new navbox perhaps, but there are other options too in prose.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Anyway, looking at the <a href="/wiki/Langues_d%27o%C3%AFl" title="Langues d'oïl">Langues d'oïl</a> article, I'm not really sold that the "zones" idea is important enough to elevate to template status. It's currently sourced to "Manuel pratique de philologie romane, Pierre Bec, 1970–1971", making it unclear if it's just One Linguist who thinks this, vs. it being an accepted thing in French linguistics and they're just citing that. The article certainly isn't very confident, merely saying that the zones were <i>proposed</i>. Have you found better sources that indicate that these zones are a "real thing"? Or are you trusting the existing division in the Langues d'oïl article?</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Don't feel obligated to make articles if you're not comfortable doing so! And like I hinted at above, I'm not even sure if it's a good idea. That said, if you don't plan on making the article, then I'd probably not add the links to the template, for the reasons I described above - possibly not in scope, and more generally, navboxes are for existing articles, not showing a structure of everything. <a href="/wiki/User:SnowFire" title="User:SnowFire">SnowFire</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SnowFire" title="User talk:SnowFire">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-SnowFire-2022-05-25T14:32:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-24T20:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:32, 25 May 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SnowFire-2022-05-25T14:32:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-24T20:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SnowFire-2022-05-25T14:32:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-24T20:18:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-26T17:25:00.000Z-SnowFire-2022-05-25T14:32:00.000Z"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:SnowFire" title="User:SnowFire">SnowFire</a>:</span> I guess I'm not sure whether the zones thing is accepted either, I don't see it on French Wikipedia. I was just trusting the existing division. It's not that we don't want to make articles, it's just that a lot of mental health stuff is getting in the way of stuff in general... ~Red of <a href="/wiki/User:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User:Arctic Circle System">Arctic Circle System</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User talk:Arctic Circle System">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-26T17:25:00.000Z-SnowFire-2022-05-25T14:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:25, 26 May 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-26T17:25:00.000Z-SnowFire-2022-05-25T14:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-26T17:25:00.000Z-SnowFire-2022-05-25T14:32:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SnowFire-2022-05-27T17:50:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-26T17:25:00.000Z"></span>Yeah, unfortunately, something you learn from hard experience is not to necessarily trust Wikipedia itself. Agree that it's suspicious that <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langue_d%27o%C3%AFl" class="extiw" title="fr:Langue d'oïl">fr:Langue_d'oïl</a> doesn't include this "zones" categorization. Unfortunately the best sources on this topic are almost surely in French which I don't really read myself. I'd definitely lean away from elevating it to this template. (Besides, I already mentioned I'm a fan of simplicity and not too many layers of categorization.) <a href="/wiki/User:SnowFire" title="User:SnowFire">SnowFire</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SnowFire" title="User talk:SnowFire">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-SnowFire-2022-05-27T17:50:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-26T17:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:50, 27 May 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SnowFire-2022-05-27T17:50:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-26T17:25:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SnowFire-2022-05-27T17:50:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-26T17:25:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:24:00.000Z-SnowFire-2022-05-27T17:50:00.000Z"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:SnowFire" title="User:SnowFire">SnowFire</a>:</span> Alright, I just removed the zones and redlinks. We'll work on splitting dialects into templates like <a href="/wiki/Template:Eastern_Romance_languages_and_dialects" title="Template:Eastern Romance languages and dialects">Template:Eastern Romance languages and dialects</a> (we will be improving this navbox quite a bit, don't worry), though there is the issue of reliable sources lacking consensus on whether something is a language or a dialect in some cases. For instance, some sources say that varieties such as <a href="/wiki/Louisiana_French" title="Louisiana French">Louisiana French</a>, <a href="/wiki/Amazonic_Spanish" title="Amazonic Spanish">Amazonic Spanish</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Faetar_language" title="Faetar language">Faetar</a> are languages while others say they are just dialects. This is a particularly widespread issue regarding the <a href="/wiki/Langues_d%27o%C3%AFl" title="Langues d'oïl">Langues d'oïl</a>. I'm not entirely sure how to categorize these, as there's no in-between in the navbox. ~Nai of <a href="/wiki/User:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User:Arctic Circle System">Arctic Circle System</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User talk:Arctic Circle System">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:24:00.000Z-SnowFire-2022-05-27T17:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:24, 28 May 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:24:00.000Z-SnowFire-2022-05-27T17:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:24:00.000Z-SnowFire-2022-05-27T17:50:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:29:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:24:00.000Z"></span>Oh and IIRC reliable sources also can't agree on whether extant <a href="/wiki/Norman_language" title="Norman language">Norman</a> varieties such as <a href="/wiki/J%C3%A8rriais" title="Jèrriais">Jèrriais</a> are languages or dialects of Norman (which is itself the subject of debate as to whether it's a language or a dialect of French due to its status as a Langue d'oïl which complicates things further. ~Nai of <a href="/wiki/User:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User:Arctic Circle System">Arctic Circle System</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User talk:Arctic Circle System">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:29:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:29, 28 May 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:29:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:29:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:24:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T09:51:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:29:00.000Z"></span>Also the "<a href="/wiki/Castilian_languages" class="mw-redirect" title="Castilian languages">Castilian languages</a>" thing came from <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/cast1243">Glottolog</a> and <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/castilian">Ethnologue</a>. ~Nai of <a href="/wiki/User:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User:Arctic Circle System">Arctic Circle System</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User talk:Arctic Circle System">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T09:51:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:51, 28 May 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T09:51:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:29:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T09:51:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T08:29:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-06-21T03:35:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T09:51:00.000Z"></span>Alright, we have finished moving Gallo-Romance dialects to Template:Gallo-Romance languages and dialects. ~Cherri of <a href="/wiki/User:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User:Arctic Circle System">Arctic Circle System</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Arctic_Circle_System" title="User talk:Arctic Circle System">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-06-21T03:35:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T09:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:35, 21 June 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-06-21T03:35:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T09:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-06-21T03:35:00.000Z-Arctic_Circle_System-2022-05-28T09:51:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Aostan,_Belgian_and_Swiss_French" data-mw-thread-id="h-Aostan,_Belgian_and_Swiss_French-20231108114400"><span id="Aostan.2C_Belgian_and_Swiss_French"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Aostan,_Belgian_and_Swiss_French-20231108114400"></span>Aostan, Belgian and Swiss French<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Aostan,_Belgian_and_Swiss_French-20231108114400"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&action=edit&section=18" title="Edit section: Aostan, Belgian and Swiss French"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Simoncik84-20231108114400-Aostan,_Belgian_and_Swiss_French"></span>Hi! Should not these three varieties of French (in alphabetical order) find their place in this template? <a href="/wiki/Aostan_French" title="Aostan French">Aostan French</a>, <a href="/wiki/Belgian_French" title="Belgian French">Belgian French</a> and <a href="/wiki/Swiss_French" title="Swiss French">Swiss French</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Simoncik84" title="User:Simoncik84">Simoncik84</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simoncik84" title="User talk:Simoncik84">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Romance_languages#c-Simoncik84-20231108114400-Aostan,_Belgian_and_Swiss_French" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:44, 8 November 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Simoncik84-20231108114400-Aostan,_Belgian_and_Swiss_French"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Simoncik84-20231108114400-Aostan,_Belgian_and_Swiss_French"></span> </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&oldid=1235785098">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Romance_languages&oldid=1235785098</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Template-Class_language_articles" title="Category:Template-Class language articles">Template-Class language articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:NA-importance_language_articles" title="Category:NA-importance language articles">NA-importance language articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Languages_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Languages articles">WikiProject Languages articles</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 21 July 2024, at 05:58<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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