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class="minerva__tab-container"> <li class="minerva__tab "> <a class="minerva__tab-text" href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion" rel="" data-event-name="tabs.subject">Project page</a> </li> <li class="minerva__tab selected"> <a class="minerva__tab-text" href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion" rel="" data-event-name="tabs.talk">Talk</a> </li> </ul> <nav class="page-actions-menu"> <ul id="p-views" class="page-actions-menu__list"> <li id="language-selector" class="page-actions-menu__list-item"> <a role="button" href="" data-mw="interface" data-event-name="menu.languages" title="Language" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet language-selector disabled"> Language </a> </li> <li id="page-actions-watch" class="page-actions-menu__list-item"> <a role="button" id="ca-watch" href="/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=Wikipedia+talk%3ACriteria+for+speedy+deletion" data-event-name="menu.watch" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet menu__item--page-actions-watch"> Watch </a> </li> <li id="page-actions-edit" class="page-actions-menu__list-item"> <a role="button" id="ca-edit" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=edit" data-event-name="menu.edit" data-mw="interface" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet edit-page menu__item--page-actions-edit"> Edit </a> </li> </ul> </nav>  <div id="mw-content-subtitle"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-pageframe-latestcomment">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241203191600-Tamzin-20241201203300">4 hours ago</a> by Chaotic Enby in topic <a href="#Circumventing_a_salted_title:_G4_or_not?">Circumventing a salted title: G4 or not?</a></div></div> </div> <div id="bodyContent" class="content"> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-lede-button-container"><span id='ooui-php-151' class='ext-discussiontools-init-lede-button oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"info","label":"Learn more about this page","classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-lede-button"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'>Learn more about this page</a></div><script>function mfTempOpenSection(id){var block=document.getElementById("mf-section-"+id);block.className+=" open-block";block.previousSibling.className+=" open-block";}</script><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><section class="mf-section-0" id="mf-section-0"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237879475">.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:#f8eaba;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-invalid-type{text-align:center}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 10%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;width:238px}}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.tmbox img{max-width:none!important}</style><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/40px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/60px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/80px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"></td><td class="mbox-text">Read this before proposing new or expanded criteria <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1252059228">.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxplain{float:right;margin:0 0 0 1em;border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);background-color:var(--background-color-base,#fff);padding:0.3em 0.6em 0.2em 0.6em;text-align:center;font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxleft{float:left;margin:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutlist{display:inline-block;border-bottom:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);margin-bottom:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxplain ul{font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutanchordiv{position:relative;top:-3em}.mw-parser-output li .module-shortcutanchordiv{float:right}.mw-parser-output .mbox-imageright .module-shortcutboxplain{padding:0.4em 1em 0.4em 1em;line-height:1.3;margin:0}</style><div class="module-shortcutanchordiv"></div><div class="module-shortcutboxplain noprint" role="note"><div class="module-shortcutlist"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Shortcut" title="Wikipedia:Shortcut">Shortcut</a></div><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1126788409">.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul{line-height:inherit;list-style:none;margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol li,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul li{margin-bottom:0}</style><div class="plainlist"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:NEWCSD&redirect=no">WP:NEWCSD</a></li></ul></div></div> Contributors frequently propose new (or expansions of existing) criteria for speedy deletion. Please bear in mind that CSD criteria require careful wording, and in particular, need to be <ol><li>Objective: Most reasonable people should be able to agree whether a page meets the criterion. Often this requires making the criterion very specific.</li> <li>Uncontestable: It must be the case that almost all pages that could be deleted using the rule, should be deleted, according to consensus. CSD criteria should cover only situations where there is a strong precedent for deletion. Remember that a rule may be used in a way you don't expect, unless you word it carefully.</li> <li>Frequent: Speedy deletion is intended primarily as a means of reducing load on other deletion methods such as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion">Wikipedia:Articles for deletion</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Proposed_deletion" title="Wikipedia:Proposed deletion">Wikipedia:Proposed deletion</a>. These processes are more discriminating because they treat articles case-by-case, and involve many points of view; CSD sacrifices these advantages in favor of speed and efficiency. If a situation arises only rarely, it's probably easier, simpler, and fairer to delete it with one of the other methods instead. This also keeps CSD as simple and easy to remember as possible, and avoids <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CREEP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CREEP">instruction creep</a>.</li> <li>Nonredundant: If the deletion can be accomplished using a reasonable interpretation of an existing rule, just use that. If this application of that rule is contested, consider discussing and/or clarifying it. New rules should be proposed only to cover situations that cannot be speedily deleted otherwise.</li></ol> If you do have a proposal that you believe passes these guidelines, please feel free to propose it on this discussion page. Be prepared to offer evidence of these points and to refine your criterion if necessary. Consider explaining how it meets these criteria when you propose it. Do not, on the other hand, add it unilaterally to the CSD page. <div style="align: right; text-align: right; font-size: smaller;" class="plainlinks">this header: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Header" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Header">view</a> • <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Header&action=edit">edit</a></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1230750088">.mw-parser-output .talkheader{text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-body{display:flex}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{display:flex;align-items:center;padding:0.1em}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help{flex:2 1 auto;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:var(--background-color-base,#ffffff);color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies+.talkheader-policies{border-left:1px solid #c0c090}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{flex:0 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts>*{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help ul,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies ul{margin:0.1em 0.8em 0 1.6em;text-align:left}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .talkheader{min-width:80%}}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice talkheader plainlinks" id="talkheader" style="border-collapse: separate;"><tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom: 1px solid #c0c090; font-weight: bold;">This is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines">talk page</a> for discussing improvements to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion" title="Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion">Criteria for speedy deletion</a> page. </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <div class="talkheader-body"> <div class="talkheader-help"> <ul><li>Put new text under old text. <a href="/wiki/Special:NewSection/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion" title="Special:NewSection/Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion">Click here to start a new topic.</a></li> <li>New to Wikipedia? Welcome! <a href="/wiki/Help:Introduction" title="Help:Introduction">Learn to edit</a>; <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Questions" title="Wikipedia:Questions">get help</a>.</li></ul> </div> <div class="talkheader-policies"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith" title="Wikipedia:Assume good faith">Assume good faith</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility" title="Wikipedia:Civility">Be polite</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks" title="Wikipedia:No personal attacks">avoid personal attacks</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers" title="Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers">Be welcoming to newcomers</a></li> <li>Seek <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests" title="Wikipedia:Dispute resolution requests">dispute resolution</a> if needed</li></ul> </div><div class="talkheader-shortcuts"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1252059228"><div class="module-shortcutanchordiv"></div><div class="module-shortcutboxplain noprint" role="note"><div class="module-shortcutlist"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Shortcut" title="Wikipedia:Shortcut">Shortcut</a></div><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1126788409"><div class="plainlist"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:CSD&redirect=no">WT:CSD</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </div> </td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">Archives</a>: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_index" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive index">Index</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_1" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_2" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 2">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_3" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 3">3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_4" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 4">4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_5" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 5">5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_6" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 6">6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_7" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 7">7</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_8" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 8">8</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_9" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 9">9</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_10" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 10">10</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_11" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 11">11</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_12" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 12">12</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_13" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 13">13</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_14" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 14">14</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_15" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 15">15</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_16" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 16">16</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_17" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 17">17</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_18" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 18">18</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_19" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 19">19</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_20" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 20">20</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_21" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 21">21</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_22" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 22">22</a>, <a 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href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_86" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 86">86</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_87" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 87">87</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_88" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 88">88</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_89" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 89">89</a><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1038841319">.mw-parser-output .tooltip-dotted{border-bottom:1px dotted;cursor:help}</style><span class="rt-commentedText tooltip tooltip-dotted" title="Discussions with timestamps are automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III after 30 days of inactivity when more than 4 threads are present.">Auto-archiving period: 30 days <a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page#Automated_archiving" title="Help:Archiving a talk page"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/16px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/24px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/32px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"></a></td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 0;"><div> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"></div><input type="hidden" value="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/" name="prefix"> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"></form></div> </div></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice copiednotice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Splitsection.svg/50px-Splitsection.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Splitsection.svg/75px-Splitsection.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Splitsection.svg/100px-Splitsection.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="40" data-file-height="20"></td><td class="mbox-text">Text and/or other creative content from <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ACategories_for_discussion%2FSpeedy%2FCriteria&oldid=584487717">this version</a> of <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ACategories_for_discussion%2FSpeedy%2FCriteria&redirect=no">Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy/Criteria</a> was copied or moved into <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion" title="Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion">Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion</a> with <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ACriteria_for_speedy_deletion&diff=584576665&oldid=584575352">this edit</a> on 20:38, 4 December 2013. The former page's <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ACategories_for_discussion%2FSpeedy%2FCriteria&action=history">history</a> now serves to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Copying_within_Wikipedia" title="Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia">provide attribution</a> for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.</td></tr></tbody></table><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice copiednotice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Splitsection.svg/50px-Splitsection.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Splitsection.svg/75px-Splitsection.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Splitsection.svg/100px-Splitsection.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="40" data-file-height="20"></td><td class="mbox-text">Text and/or other creative content from <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ACriteria_for_speedy_deletion&oldid=749905429">this version</a> of <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ACriteria_for_speedy_deletion&redirect=no">Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion</a> was copied or moved into <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Speedy" title="Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy">Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy</a> with <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ACategories_for_discussion%2FSpeedy&diff=749906249&oldid=prev">this edit</a> on 16 November 2016. The former page's <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ACriteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=history">history</a> now serves to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Copying_within_Wikipedia" title="Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia">provide attribution</a> for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.</td></tr></tbody></table> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1236090951">.mw-parser-output .hatnote{font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output div.hatnote{padding-left:1.6em;margin-bottom:0.5em}.mw-parser-output .hatnote i{font-style:normal}.mw-parser-output .hatnote+link+.hatnote{margin-top:-0.5em}@media print{body.ns-0 .mw-parser-output .hatnote{display:none!important}}</style><div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">See also <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Speedy_deletions" title="Wikipedia talk:Speedy deletions">Wikipedia talk:Speedy deletions</a> for discussions which took place in 2006-7 before it was redirected here.</div> <div id="toc" class="toc" role="navigation" aria-labelledby="mw-toc-heading"><input type="checkbox" role="button" id="toctogglecheckbox" class="toctogglecheckbox" style="display:none"><div class="toctitle" lang="en" dir="ltr"><h2 id="mw-toc-heading">Contents</h2><label class="toctogglelabel" for="toctogglecheckbox"></label></div> <ul> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-1"><a href="#Template_doc_pages_that_have_been_converted">1 Template doc pages that have been converted</a> <ul> <li class="toclevel-2 tocsection-2"><a href="#New_T-criteria_proposal">1.1 New T-criteria proposal</a></li> <li class="toclevel-2 tocsection-3"><a href="#Pre-RFC_finalisation">1.2 Pre-RFC finalisation</a></li> <li class="toclevel-2 tocsection-4"><a href="#RfC:_Enacting_T5_(unused_template_subpages)">1.3 RfC: Enacting T5 (unused template subpages)</a></li> <li class="toclevel-2 tocsection-5"><a href="#Author_removal">1.4 Author removal</a></li> </ul> </li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-6"><a href="#G6_and_G7_when_others_object">2 G6 and G7 when others object</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-7"><a href="#G8_definition_of_dependent">3 G8 definition of dependent</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-8"><a href="#G12_and_wording_from_WP:CP">4 G12 and wording from WP:CP</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-9"><a href="#Suggestion_on_expansion_of_speedy_criteria">5 Suggestion on expansion of speedy criteria</a> <ul> <li class="toclevel-2"><a href="#MediaWiki">5.1 MediaWiki</a> <ul> <li class="toclevel-3"><a href="#MW1:_Duplicate_MediaWiki_pages">5.1.1 MW1: Duplicate MediaWiki pages</a></li> <li class="toclevel-3"><a href="#MW2:_Unused_MediaWiki_pages">5.1.2 MW2: Unused MediaWiki pages</a></li> <li class="toclevel-3"><a href="#MW3:_Foreign_language_messages">5.1.3 MW3: Foreign language messages</a></li> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-14"><a href="#Remove_%22or_in_the_incorrect_namespace%22_from_the_G6_bullet_point">6 Remove "or in the incorrect namespace" from the G6 bullet point</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-15"><a href="#What_does_%22no_substantial_edits_by_others_not_subject_to_the_ban_or_sanctions%22_mean?">7 What does "no substantial edits by others not subject to the ban or sanctions" mean?</a></li> <li class="toclevel-1 tocsection-16"><a href="#Circumventing_a_salted_title:_G4_or_not?">8 Circumventing a salted title: G4 or not?</a></li> </ul> </div> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(1)"><h2 id="Template_doc_pages_that_have_been_converted" data-mw-thread-id="h-Template_doc_pages_that_have_been_converted-20240909083600">Template doc pages that have been converted</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Template doc pages that have been converted" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-143' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Crouch,_Swale-20241203180100-Primefac-20241203130400">5 hours ago</a>65 comments21 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-1 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-1"> There are two types of template /doc pages that have been sent to TfD and always deleted. Navigation templates that had their doc converted to {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Navbox_documentation" title="Template:Navbox documentation">Navbox documentation</a>}} and WikiProject banners that had their doc converted to the automatic one with <code class="tpl-para" style="word-break:break-word;">|DOC=auto</code>. Can these be tagged with G6? Sending them to TfD really adds nothing to the process. <a href="/wiki/User:Gonnym" title="User:Gonnym">Gonnym</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gonnym" title="User talk:Gonnym">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Gonnym-20240909083600-Template_doc_pages_that_have_been_converted" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:36, 9 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I've tagged such pages with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:G6" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:G6">WP:G6</a> before, giving a justification like "template uses {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Navdoc" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Navdoc">navdoc</a>}} instead", and it's always worked fine. As long as the /doc page is just boilerplate (as opposed to substantial/unique to its template), I think it's clearly uncontroversial maintenance. <a href="/wiki/User:Jlwoodwa" title="User:Jlwoodwa">jlwoodwa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jlwoodwa" title="User talk:Jlwoodwa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Jlwoodwa-20240923045200-Gonnym-20240909083600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:52, 23 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-2" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Which highlights the problem with G6 that no two people agree on what exactly it includes. If I were still an admin patrolling speedy deletions I would not have been willing to carry out such requests. <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20240923053000-Jlwoodwa-20240923045200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-3" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I am also such an admin. <a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac">Primefac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Primefac" title="User talk:Primefac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Primefac-20240927214800-Pppery-20240923053000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:48, 27 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-4" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="New_T-criteria_proposal" data-mw-thread-id="h-New_T-criteria_proposal-Template_doc_pages_that_have_been_converted-20240927215800">New T-criteria proposal</h3> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: New T-criteria proposal" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> </div> Based on the above, and the fact that despite multiple admins indicating that G6 shouldn't be used for /doc deletion in the Template space, I would like to propose that we add a new T-criteria specifically to fix this issue. It would be something along the lines of <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">TX: documentation subpages that are no longer transcluded by the parent template</q>. I'm happy to discuss wording and scope (or clarifications as to what constitutes "no longer used"), but from a point of initial consideration: <ol><li>Objective: yes, as a /doc is either transcluded by its parent template (or for whatever reason, any template) or it is not</li> <li>Uncontestable: the only situation where I could see an unused /doc needing to be kept is for cases of attribution (if it were copied to another /doc for example) but in those cases it should just be redirected anyway. At TFD they are 100% deleted.</li> <li>Frequent: I decline at least one per week, and TFD is rife with them.</li> <li>Nonredundant: As indicated in the discussion in the main section, we are misusing G6 to allow for deletion, which seems to be the only other criteria that people seem to want to chuck these under.</li></ol> Thanks for the consideration. <a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac">Primefac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Primefac" title="User talk:Primefac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Primefac-20240927215800-New_T-criteria_proposal" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-5" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <ul><li>Support. <a href="/wiki/User:SmokeyJoe" title="User:SmokeyJoe">SmokeyJoe</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SmokeyJoe" title="User talk:SmokeyJoe">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-SmokeyJoe-20240927230800-Primefac-20240927215800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:08, 27 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-6" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Can this be made more general? Maybe "a template subpage not used by its parent, or another template"? With the understanding that Template:*/sandbox and Template:*/testcases are "used" despite not being transcluded. —<a href="/wiki/User:Cryptic" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Cryptic">Cryptic</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Cryptic-20240927233900-Primefac-20240927215800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:39, 27 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-7" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Are there any other template subpages that are as frequently obsoleted, to the point of being objectively and uncontestably delete-worthy? <a href="/wiki/User:Jlwoodwa" title="User:Jlwoodwa">jlwoodwa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jlwoodwa" title="User talk:Jlwoodwa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Jlwoodwa-20240927234500-Cryptic-20240927233900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:45, 27 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-8" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>They seem to mostly be deleted with G6. <a href="https://quarry.wmcloud.org/query/86600" class="extiw" title="quarry:query/86600">Mostly-applicable deletions in 2024</a>. —<a href="/wiki/User:Cryptic" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Cryptic">Cryptic</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Cryptic-20240928001200-Jlwoodwa-20240927234500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-9" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>What I see in that list is almost exclusively <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Plastikspork/Archive_15#Mass_template_deletions" title="User talk:Plastikspork/Archive 15">User talk:Plastikspork/Archive 15#Mass template deletions</a> (which some other admins did too apparently), to which this speedy deletion criterion as currently worded wouldn't apply because they were redirects not templates. Then there's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Templates_for_discussion/Archive_26#Making_Category:Unnecessary_taxonomy_templates_G6" title="Wikipedia talk:Templates for discussion/Archive 26">Wikipedia_talk:Templates for discussion/Archive 26#Making Category:Unnecessary taxonomy templates G6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/AnomieBOT_III_5" title="Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/AnomieBOT III 5">Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/AnomieBOT III 5</a>, expired editnotices, some stuff like <a href="/wiki/Template:POTD/2024-05-03" title="Template:POTD/2024-05-03">Template:POTD/2024-05-03</a>, and run-of-the-mill speedies under other criteria or other parts of G6. <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> The POTD example brings up an interesting point - this concept of delegation of deletion authority isn't specific to template namespace, it can be seen at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Talk:Blackpink/GA1" title="Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Talk:Blackpink/GA1">WP:Miscellany for deletion/Talk:Blackpink/GA1</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/M3GAN_2.0/archive1&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Wikipedia:Featured article review/M3GAN 2.0/archive1 (page does not exist)">Wikipedia:Featured article review/M3GAN 2.0/archive1</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Wizzrobe61&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wizzrobe61 (page does not exist)">WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Wizzrobe61</a> etc. <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Support as proposed anyway, though, I'm just bouncing some ideas off the wall. <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20240928003600-Cryptic-20240928001200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a> (edited 03:34, 28 September 2024 (UTC))<span id="ooui-php-10" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Making a new objective criterion, dealing with the misuse of the catchall G6, more “general” seems to miss the point.</dd> <dd>You want to make unused template subpages speediable? Does “unused” mean “never used”? How frequently is “unused template subpage” the driving reason for deletion at xfd? <a href="/wiki/User:SmokeyJoe" title="User:SmokeyJoe">SmokeyJoe</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SmokeyJoe" title="User talk:SmokeyJoe">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-SmokeyJoe-20240928010900-Cryptic-20240927233900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-11" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Wouldn't it be TfD, not MfD? <a href="/wiki/User:Jlwoodwa" title="User:Jlwoodwa">jlwoodwa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jlwoodwa" title="User talk:Jlwoodwa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Jlwoodwa-20240928011500-SmokeyJoe-20240928010900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:15, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-12" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Yes. Changed to xfd. —-<a href="/wiki/User:SmokeyJoe" title="User:SmokeyJoe">SmokeyJoe</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SmokeyJoe" title="User talk:SmokeyJoe">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-SmokeyJoe-20240928072600-Jlwoodwa-20240928011500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-13" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li> <li>Support for /doc pages as proposed. Oppose anything else without a much more objective proposal than that suggest in the conversation above. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20240928005000-Primefac-20240927215800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:50, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-14" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Support. As one of the editors that tend to send them to TfD, I sometimes skip them just because of the extra hassle of combining multiple templates into one nomination to make life easier for everyone. These templates always get deleted and usually only one editor even cares to comment, which is expected, since no one cares and the newer doc is always better. <a href="/wiki/User:Gonnym" title="User:Gonnym">Gonnym</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gonnym" title="User talk:Gonnym">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Gonnym-20240928074400-Primefac-20240927215800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-15" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>I support the general concept (ideally as a more general thing, because it is a frequent-ish occurrence), and I want to propose some draft language. <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237805129">.mw-parser-output .talkquote{color:var(--color-base,#202122);background-color:#eaf8f4;border-left:3px solid #008560;padding:0 .8em;margin:0}.mw-parser-output .talkquote-by,.mw-parser-output .talkquote-source{margin-left:1.6em}.mw-parser-output .skin-vector-2022 .talkquote>:last-child{padding-bottom:0}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}</style><blockquote class="talkquote">T5. Unused template subpages<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>This applies to unused <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SUBPAGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SUBPAGE">subpages</a> of templates, such as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_documentation" title="Wikipedia:Template documentation">template documentation</a> subpages which are no longer used in favor of centralized documentation, /core subpages which are not called by the template itself, and old subpages of {{<a href="/wiki/Template:POTD_protected" title="Template:POTD protected">POTD protected</a>}}. It excludes /testcases and /sandbox subpages, as well as anything tagged with {{<a href="/wiki/Template:T5-exempt" title="Template:T5-exempt">T5-exempt</a>}} [do we need this? It seems like a good way to be careful, but it would make the criterion more complicated]. Reasonable exceptions apply for subpages which will be used soon, and editors are free to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion" title="Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion">request undeletion</a>.</blockquote> Wordsmithing welcome. (Being very pedantic, what ENGVAR does WP:CSD use? Favor or favour? Centralized or centralised?) <a href="/wiki/User:HouseBlaster" title="User:HouseBlaster">House</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster" title="Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster">Blaster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HouseBlaster" title="User talk:HouseBlaster">talk</a> • he/they) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-HouseBlaster-20240928181800-Primefac-20240927215800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-16" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>it seems to use -or and -ize spellings. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20240928195300-HouseBlaster-20240928181800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-17" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Wording looks good, and I don't think a T5-exemption template overcomplicates things any more than the G8-exemption template does. Worth checking back after a year or so and potentially trimming if it never ends up employed in practice.</dd> <dd>On the pedantry side of things, excepting the accessibility provisions the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MOS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MOS">WP:MOS</a> only applies to articles so there is no requirement or need for CSD to be internally consistent in its ENGVAR. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:540A:5E37:3B0B:2225" title="Special:Contributions/2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:540A:5E37:3B0B:2225">2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:540A:5E37:3B0B:2225</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:540A:5E37:3B0B:2225&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:540A:5E37:3B0B:2225 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:540A:5E37:3B0B:2225-20241008194000-HouseBlaster-20240928181800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:40, 8 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-18" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></li> <li>Support the general concept, with the wording used by HouseBlaster. As a second choice, the original /doc-only proposal could work. Anything that moves well-defined routine operations outside of G6 is a positive. <a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby">Chaotic Enby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chaotic_Enby" title="User talk:Chaotic Enby">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chaotic_Enby" title="Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241029185500-Primefac-20240927215800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:55, 29 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-19" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Pre-RFC_finalisation" data-mw-thread-id="h-Pre-RFC_finalisation-Template_doc_pages_that_have_been_converted-20241107170800">Pre-RFC finalisation</h3> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Pre-RFC finalisation" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> </div> Before I put this forward as a formal RFC, are there any final thoughts about the wording of the new criteria based on the discussion above? <a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac">Primefac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Primefac" title="User talk:Primefac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Primefac-20241107170800-Pre-RFC_finalisation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-20" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Is centralised documentation intended as the only reason for lack of use that allows for speedy deletion or is it intended that all unused documentation subpages are eligible? I can see the current wording being read both ways. If the intent is the latter then rewording to <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">...documentation subpages which are no longer used (e.g. due to centralized documentation)</q> would solve the issue (as would just removing what I've put as a parenthetical). If the former is intended then someone better at wordsmithing than me will need to have at it.</dd> <dd>As for {{<a href="/wiki/Template:T5-exempt" title="Template:T5-exempt">T5-exempt</a>}}, I'd say it would be beneficial as there are bound to be some pages that appear unused but actually aren't (something related to subst-only templates, or uncommon options in transitory templates) or which are needed for some other not-immediately-obvious purpose. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241107193800-Primefac-20241107170800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-21" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The most common reason I see for /doc pages nominated for G6 is when it is a "simple" /doc (maybe only containing {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Collapsible_option" title="Template:Collapsible option">collapsible option</a>}} or similar) where the documentation gets moved to the main template and the /doc is no longer necessary. Other situations do include where multiple similar templates end up sharing a /doc, but usually what happens there is they are all redirected to that central /doc. <a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac">Primefac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Primefac" title="User talk:Primefac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Primefac-20241107211400-Thryduulf-20241107193800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-22" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>I like HouseBlaster's statement, but I wonder if the confusion comes because it's three long examples given after the initial statement; would it be better to say just simply <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">This applies to unused subpages of templates. Such pages include template documentation subpages...</q> (i.e. split it into two sentences). That might reduce the confusion of it only being centralised /docs. <a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac">Primefac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Primefac" title="User talk:Primefac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Primefac-20241108125600-Thryduulf-20241107193800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-23" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>That works. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241108191800-Primefac-20241108125600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-24" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>What about using a bulleted list, like <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:G8" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:G8">WP:G8</a>? <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"><blockquote class="talkquote">T5. Unused template subpages<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>This applies to unused <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SUBPAGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SUBPAGE">subpages</a> of templates, such as:<ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_documentation" title="Wikipedia:Template documentation">Template documentation</a> subpages unused by the template itself</li><li>/core subpages which are not called by the template itself</li><li>Old subpages of {{<a href="/wiki/Template:POTD_protected" title="Template:POTD protected">POTD protected</a>}}</li></ul>It excludes /testcases and /sandbox subpages, as well as anything tagged with {{<a href="/wiki/Template:T5-exempt" title="Template:T5-exempt">T5-exempt</a>}}. Reasonable exceptions apply for subpages which will be used soon, and editors are free to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion" title="Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion">request undeletion</a>.</blockquote> <a href="/wiki/User:HouseBlaster" title="User:HouseBlaster">House</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster" title="Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster">Blaster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HouseBlaster" title="User talk:HouseBlaster">talk</a> • he/they) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-HouseBlaster-20241108232800-Primefac-20241108125600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-25" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>A+ <a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac">Primefac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Primefac" title="User talk:Primefac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Primefac-20241109121900-HouseBlaster-20241108232800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:19, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-26" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Yes. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241110003000-HouseBlaster-20241108232800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:30, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-27" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>We should also probably include the current de-facto process of <a href="/wiki/Category:Unnecessary_taxonomy_templates" title="Category:Unnecessary taxonomy templates">Category:Unnecessary taxonomy templates</a> here as well. <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20241110003300-HouseBlaster-20241108232800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-28" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I seriously love that I can still learn about new processes on Wikipedia. Probably not the best from a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CREEP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CREEP">WP:CREEP</a> perspective, but I still find it cool. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"><blockquote class="talkquote">T5. Unused template subpages<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>This applies to unused <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SUBPAGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SUBPAGE">subpages</a> of templates, such as:<ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_documentation" title="Wikipedia:Template documentation">Template documentation</a> subpages unused by the template itself</li><li>/core subpages which are not called by the template itself</li><li>Old subpages of {{<a href="/wiki/Template:POTD_protected" title="Template:POTD protected">POTD protected</a>}}</li><li>Unnecessary subpages of {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Taxonomy" title="Template:Taxonomy">Taxonomy</a>}}, e.g. because it is incorrectly set up, or relates to a taxon no longer used</li></ul>It excludes /testcases and /sandbox subpages, as well as anything tagged with {{<a href="/wiki/Template:T5-exempt" title="Template:T5-exempt">T5-exempt</a>}}. Reasonable exceptions apply for subpages which will be used soon, and editors are free to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion" title="Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion">request undeletion</a>.</blockquote> <a href="/wiki/User:HouseBlaster" title="User:HouseBlaster">House</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster" title="Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster">Blaster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HouseBlaster" title="User talk:HouseBlaster">talk</a> • he/they) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-HouseBlaster-20241110045600-Pppery-20241110003300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:56, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-29" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Hmm. We currently process a ton of subtemplates at TFD after the deletion of the primary template (this is backward to the proposal and discussion here, so it's not the exact same case) as G8. Is there merit to spinning that out of G8? <a href="/wiki/User:Izno" title="User:Izno">Izno</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Izno" title="User talk:Izno">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Izno-20241113050300-Primefac-20241107170800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-30" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I see the rationale, but I do agree it's the opposite end of the spectrum. I wouldn't be opposed but I don't necessarily see it as being necessary to combine them. <a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac">Primefac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Primefac" title="User talk:Primefac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Primefac-20241113125700-Izno-20241113050300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-31" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I'm not seeing much benefit in moving something which is a core part of G8 out of that criterion. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241113143300-Primefac-20241113125700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-32" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> I'm a bit late to this party, but I submit for consideration, somewhat warily, Editnotices that are no longer used, typically because they have been blanked after sanctions expired or someone thought better of having an edit notice at all. We can use the "blanked by author" criterion for some of them, but most are blanked by people who did not create the notices. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2024_November_18#Template:Editnotices/Page/Milo_Yiannopoulos_and_related_blanked_edit_notices" title="Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 November 18">this TFD</a>. I will understand if including them would stretch the definition of this criterion, since they are not subpages, but they are in template space and tied to specific pages. – <a href="/wiki/User:Jonesey95" title="User:Jonesey95">Jonesey95</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jonesey95" title="User talk:Jonesey95">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Jonesey95-20241121205100-Pre-RFC_finalisation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:51, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-33" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I think it would best to propose edit notices as a separate criterion, because as you say it's a stretch to include them with this one. My only query would be how frequent deletion of them is? <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241121212400-Jonesey95-20241121205100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:24, 21 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-34" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I mean, edit notices are all subpages of <a href="/wiki/Template:Editnotices" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Editnotices">Template:Editnotices</a>, so it is not that much of a stretch to include them. However, I think to simplify things, we should have a separate discussion after the T5 discussion where we can consider whether it is frequent enough to merit a CSD and, if so, whether it should be T6 or a bullet point in T5.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>I will launch an RfC in 24 hours if there are no further comments/objections/feedback to <a href="#c-HouseBlaster-20241110045600-Pppery-20241110003300">the proposal above</a>. Best, <a href="/wiki/User:HouseBlaster" title="User:HouseBlaster">House</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster" title="Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster">Blaster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HouseBlaster" title="User talk:HouseBlaster">talk</a> • he/they) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-HouseBlaster-20241122033000-Thryduulf-20241121212400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:30, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-35" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>It's OK with me to exclude it here. There are maybe about 100 to 200 blank editnotices right now, but I don't think anyone has been paying attention to them (many were blanked in 2021), so I'm guessing that deletion rates would be something in the low single digits per month. TFD is probably fine unless someone wants to go to the trouble of making a separate CSD criterion. – <a href="/wiki/User:Jonesey95" title="User:Jonesey95">Jonesey95</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jonesey95" title="User talk:Jonesey95">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Jonesey95-20241122175100-HouseBlaster-20241122033000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-36" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>I was going to launch the RfC, but it turns out there is one additional thing we need to determine. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TCSD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TCSD">WP:TCSD</a>, while currently obsolete, used to apply to both templates and modules. I see no reason T5 should not apply to modules, given that modules are really templates which we have to put in a different namespace due to technical restrictions. I think adding <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk inline-quote-talk-marks">subpages of <a href="/wiki/Module:Sandbox" title="Module:Sandbox">Module:Sandbox</a></q> to the list of things ineligible for T5 would solve any problems. Do others have thoughts? <a href="/wiki/User:HouseBlaster" title="User:HouseBlaster">House</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster" title="Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster">Blaster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HouseBlaster" title="User talk:HouseBlaster">talk</a> • he/they) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-HouseBlaster-20241123001700-Jonesey95-20241121205100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-37" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>From the perspective of someone largely ignorant about modules your proposal makes sense, but defer to those who know what they are talking about if they disagree. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241123005600-HouseBlaster-20241123001700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-38" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Makes sense to me too as a module namespace regular. <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20241123005600-HouseBlaster-20241123001700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-39" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>Fine by me. <a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac">Primefac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Primefac" title="User talk:Primefac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Primefac-20241123131300-HouseBlaster-20241123001700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-40" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="RfC:_Enacting_T5_(unused_template_subpages)" data-mw-thread-id="h-RfC:_Enacting_T5_(unused_template_subpages)-Template_doc_pages_that_have_been_converted-20241125030100">RfC: Enacting T5 (unused template subpages)</h3> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: RfC: Enacting T5 (unused template subpages)" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> </div> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1250141580">.mw-parser-output .archive-top{background-color:#EDEAFF;color:inherit;padding:0 0.6em;border:1px solid #8779DD}.mw-parser-output .archive-top-result .side-box-abovebelow{background-color:#c3c3c3;color:inherit;text-align:center;font-size:110%;font-weight:bold}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .archive-top{background-color:#181424;border:1px solid #8072d6;color:#fff}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .archive-top-result .side-box-abovebelow{background-color:#141126;color:#fff}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .archive-top{background-color:#181424;border:1px solid #8072d6;color:#fff}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .archive-top-result .side-box-abovebelow{background-color:#141126;color:#fff}}@media(min-width:640px){.mw-parser-output .archive-top-result{width:30%}}</style><div class="boilerplate archived archive-top mw-archivedtalk" style=""><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1235681985">.mw-parser-output .side-box{margin:4px 0;box-sizing:border-box;border:1px solid #aaa;font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em;background-color:var(--background-color-interactive-subtle,#f8f9fa);display:flow-root}.mw-parser-output .side-box-abovebelow,.mw-parser-output .side-box-text{padding:0.25em 0.9em}.mw-parser-output .side-box-image{padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .side-box-imageright{padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}@media(min-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .side-box-flex{display:flex;align-items:center}.mw-parser-output .side-box-text{flex:1;min-width:0}}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .side-box{width:238px}.mw-parser-output .side-box-right{clear:right;float:right;margin-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .side-box-left{margin-right:1em}}</style><div class="side-box metadata side-box-right archive-top-result" style="padding: 10px; line-height: inherit;"> <div class="side-box-abovebelow" style="padding: 0;"> ENACTED</div> <div class="side-box-flex"> <div class="side-box-text" style="padding: 0;">There is strong consensus to enact T5 as a new criterion for speedy deletion. Participants argued that this criterion would reduce the load on G6, and highlighted that deleted pages would be eligible for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REFUND" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REFUND">WP:REFUND</a>. Some editors noted that deleting administrators should take special care in identifying templates and modules orphaned in error, as well as when dealing with taxonomy-related pages. <a href="/wiki/User:Frostly" title="User:Frostly">Frostly</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Frostly" title="User talk:Frostly">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Frostly-20241203051700-RfC:_Enacting_T5_(unused_template_subpages)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-41" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-admin_closure" title="Wikipedia:Non-admin closure">non-admin closure</a>)</div></div> </div> <div class="boilerplate-header" style="margin-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic;"> The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. </div> <hr> Should T5 be enacted as a new criterion for speedy deletion for templates and modules? <a href="/wiki/User:HouseBlaster" title="User:HouseBlaster">House</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster" title="Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster">Blaster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HouseBlaster" title="User talk:HouseBlaster">talk</a> • he/they) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-HouseBlaster-20241125030100-RfC:_Enacting_T5_(unused_template_subpages)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-42" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> Proposed text <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256334245">.mw-parser-output .ivmbox{margin-bottom:1em;border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);background-color:var(--background-color-warning-subtle,#fdf2d5);padding:0.5em;display:flex;align-items:center}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .ivmbox[style*="background"]{background-color:var(--background-color-warning-subtle,ivory)!important;color:inherit}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .ivmbox[style*="background"]{background-color:var(--background-color-warning-subtle,ivory)!important;color:inherit}}.mw-parser-output .ivmbox-image{padding-left:1px;padding-right:0.5em;max-width:100px;flex:1 0 25px}.mw-parser-output .ivmbox-text{padding:0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .ivmbox-text>:first-child{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .ivmbox-text>:last-child{margin-bottom:0}</style><div class="ivmbox" style=""> <div class="ivmbox-text"> T5. Unused template subpages This applies to unused <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SUBPAGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SUBPAGE">subpages</a> of templates, such as: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_documentation" title="Wikipedia:Template documentation">Template documentation</a> subpages unused by the template itself</li> <li>/core subpages which are not called by the template itself</li> <li>Old subpages of {{<a href="/wiki/Template:POTD_protected" title="Template:POTD protected">POTD protected</a>}}</li> <li>Unnecessary subpages of {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Taxonomy" title="Template:Taxonomy">Taxonomy</a>}}, e.g. because it is incorrectly set up, or relates to a taxon no longer used</li></ul> It excludes /testcases and /sandbox subpages, subpages of <a href="/wiki/Module:Sandbox" title="Module:Sandbox">Module:Sandbox</a>, as well as anything tagged with {{<a href="/wiki/Template:T5-exempt" title="Template:T5-exempt">T5-exempt</a>}}. Reasonable exceptions apply for subpages which will be used soon, and editors are free to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion" title="Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion">request undeletion</a>. </div> </div> <ul><li>Support as proposer. These are frequently and uncontroversially deleted at TFD. Some of them are also currently being shoved into G6, but reducing the load G6 bears is a feature of this proposal, not a bug. It meets all four NEWCSD criteria: <ol><li><noscript><img alt="check" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 20px;height: 20px;" data-src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" data-alt="check" data-width="20" data-height="20" data-srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/30px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/40px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-class="mw-file-element"> Y Objective: Either a subpage of a template is being used or it is not</li> <li><noscript><img alt="check" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 20px;height: 20px;" data-src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" data-alt="check" data-width="20" data-height="20" data-srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/30px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/40px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-class="mw-file-element"> Y Uncontestible: Always get deleted at TFD</li> <li><noscript><img alt="check" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 20px;height: 20px;" data-src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" data-alt="check" data-width="20" data-height="20" data-srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/30px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/40px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-class="mw-file-element"> Y Frequent: <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Primefac">Primefac</a> personally <a href="#c-Primefac-20240927215800-New_T-criteria_proposal">declines</a> at least one erroneous G6 nomination per week</li> <li><noscript><img alt="check" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"></noscript><span class="lazy-image-placeholder" style="width: 20px;height: 20px;" data-src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png" data-alt="check" data-width="20" data-height="20" data-srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/30px-Yes_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/40px-Yes_check.svg.png 2x" data-class="mw-file-element"> Y Nonredundant: They are certainly being tagged as G6 (see above), but G6 is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTG6" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTG6">not a catch-all</a> and we should be decreasing the load it carries</li></ol></li> <li class="mw-empty-elt"><li style="list-style:none;">I also think that using CSD has the benefit of making these deletions easier to overturn via <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REFUND" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REFUND">WP:REFUND</a> if the use for the subpage later arises. Best, <a href="/wiki/User:HouseBlaster" title="User:HouseBlaster">House</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster" title="Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster">Blaster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HouseBlaster" title="User talk:HouseBlaster">talk</a> • he/they) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-HouseBlaster-20241125030100-RfC:_Enacting_T5_(unused_template_subpages)-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-43" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <dl><dd>I have pinged all participants in the above discussion using <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Bcc" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Bcc">bcc</a>}}</code> to avoid clogging the discussion.<a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby"></a><a href="/wiki/User:Cryptic" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Cryptic"></a><a href="/wiki/User:Gonnym" title="User:Gonnym"></a><a href="/wiki/User:Izno" title="User:Izno"></a><a href="/wiki/User:Jlwoodwa" title="User:Jlwoodwa"></a><a href="/wiki/User:Jonesey95" title="User:Jonesey95"></a><a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery"></a><a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac"></a><a href="/wiki/User:SmokeyJoe" title="User:SmokeyJoe"></a><a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf"></a> <a href="/wiki/User:HouseBlaster" title="User:HouseBlaster">House</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster" title="Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster">Blaster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HouseBlaster" title="User talk:HouseBlaster">talk</a> • he/they) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-HouseBlaster-20241125030100-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-44" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I am going to be eating <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TROUT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TROUT">WP:TROUT</a> tonight. I forgot to include the exemption for subpages of <a href="/wiki/Module:Sandbox" title="Module:Sandbox">Module:Sandbox</a>; I have silently corrected it. <a href="/wiki/User:HouseBlaster" title="User:HouseBlaster">House</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster" title="Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster">Blaster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HouseBlaster" title="User talk:HouseBlaster">talk</a> • he/they) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-HouseBlaster-20241126015200-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:52, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-45" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> <li>Notified: <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1259430055" title="Special:Diff/1259430055">Wikipedia talk:Templates for discussion</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1259429973" title="Special:Diff/1259429973">Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)</a>, <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1259430002" title="Special:Diff/1259430002">Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1259429921" title="Special:Diff/1259429921">Template:Centralized discussion</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:HouseBlaster" title="User:HouseBlaster">House</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster" title="Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster">Blaster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HouseBlaster" title="User talk:HouseBlaster">talk</a> • he/they) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-HouseBlaster-20241125030400-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-46" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Are the two specific examples of POTD protected and Taxonomy truly necessary? —<a href="/wiki/User:Cryptic" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Cryptic">Cryptic</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Cryptic-20241125030900-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-47" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I believe so, yes, because they are currently either deleted under G6 or G8 and the intention was to fold them into this as a template-specific reason. <a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac">Primefac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Primefac" title="User talk:Primefac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Primefac-20241125115900-Cryptic-20241125030900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-48" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></li> <li>Support with or without the examples, per my comments in the pre-discussion. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241125034500-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-49" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Support <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20241125045600-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-50" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Support as long as people are careful. CSD nominators and deleting admins will need to be careful about pages orphaned through edits that should be reverted. In monitoring orphaned /doc subpages, I sometimes find templates where the {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Documentation" title="Template:Documentation">documentation</a>}} portion has been deleted, typically in error. – <a href="/wiki/User:Jonesey95" title="User:Jonesey95">Jonesey95</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jonesey95" title="User talk:Jonesey95">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Jonesey95-20241125050500-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-51" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Support, anything that reduces the workload on G6 is good to have as a standalone criterion. Although I would be careful with taxonomy templates related to unused taxa, since old taxa can still be documented, or even attempt to make a comeback with varying level of success (like <a href="/wiki/Ornithoscelida" title="Ornithoscelida">Ornithoscelida</a>). <a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby">Chaotic Enby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chaotic_Enby" title="User talk:Chaotic Enby">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chaotic_Enby" title="Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241125080500-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-52" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Support, seems logical and is being proposed by folks who know what they're doing. I assume this'll be one of the criteria that can be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REFUND" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REFUND">WP:REFUNDed</a> upon request? <a href="/wiki/User:Toadspike" title="User:Toadspike">Toadspike</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Toadspike" title="User talk:Toadspike">[Talk]</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Toadspike-20241125080600-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-53" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">I assume this'll be one of the criteria that can be WP:REFUNDed upon request?</q> Yes, explicitly: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">editors are free to request undeletion</q>. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241125113200-Toadspike-20241125080600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:32, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-54" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></li> <li>Support. <a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac">Primefac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Primefac" title="User talk:Primefac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Primefac-20241125115900-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-55" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Support per above <a href="/wiki/User:TheAstorPastor" title="User:TheAstorPastor">The AP </a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TheAstorPastor" title="User talk:TheAstorPastor">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-TheAstorPastor-20241125140500-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-56" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Support Makes sense per above. Can’t see any reason why not. Cheers, <a href="/wiki/User:RadioactiveBoulevardier" title="User:RadioactiveBoulevardier">RadioactiveBoulevardier</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:RadioactiveBoulevardier" title="User talk:RadioactiveBoulevardier">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-RadioactiveBoulevardier-20241126044200-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-57" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Support As Jonesey said, nominators and admins need to take care that unnecessary deletions are not made. However, this is overall a good idea. — <a href="/wiki/User:Jkudlick" title="User:Jkudlick">Jkudlick</a> ⚓ <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jkudlick" title="User talk:Jkudlick">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Jkudlick-20241126214900-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-58" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Support. <a href="/wiki/User:ToadetteEdit" title="User:ToadetteEdit">ToadetteEdit</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ToadetteEdit" title="User talk:ToadetteEdit">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-ToadetteEdit-20241127062300-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:23, 27 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-59" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Support Fine both with or without examples; the NEWCSD analysis is on the nose. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/184.152.68.190" title="Special:Contributions/184.152.68.190">184.152.68.190</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:184.152.68.190" title="User talk:184.152.68.190">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-184.152.68.190-20241130022700-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:27, 30 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-60" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li> <li>Support --<a href="/wiki/User:Takipoint123" title="User:Takipoint123">Takipoint123</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Takipoint123" title="User talk:Takipoint123">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Takipoint123-20241201045400-HouseBlaster-20241125030100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-61" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></li></ul> <div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div> </div><div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Author_removal" data-mw-thread-id="h-Author_removal-Template_doc_pages_that_have_been_converted-20241203055900">Author removal</h3> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Author removal" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> </div> T5 should allow removal by the creator of the page, right? Seems uncontroversial but needs to be added to the list. <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20241203055900-Author_removal" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-62" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I agree on both counts. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241203113700-Pppery-20241203055900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:37, 3 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-63" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Agreed; easy enough to tag something with {{<a href="/wiki/Template:T5-exempt" title="Template:T5-exempt">t5-exempt</a>}} in those cases. <a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac">Primefac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Primefac" title="User talk:Primefac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Primefac-20241203130400-Thryduulf-20241203113700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:04, 3 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-64" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Agree as well. <a href="/wiki/User:Crouch,_Swale" title="User:Crouch, Swale">Crouch, Swale</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crouch,_Swale" title="User talk:Crouch, Swale">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Crouch,_Swale-20241203180100-Primefac-20241203130400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-65" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(2)"><h2 id="G6_and_G7_when_others_object" data-mw-thread-id="h-G6_and_G7_when_others_object-20241020140200">G6 and G7 when others object</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: G6 and G7 when others object" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-144' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Thryduulf-20241125162200-Cryptic-20241125161000">8 days ago</a>10 comments4 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-2 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-2"> Given all the words on this page about how speedy deletion needs to be uncontroversial, I shouldn't be necessary but given discussions like <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_October_17#April_4,_1974" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 17">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 17#April 4, 1974</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_October_10#Wikipedia:JDELANOY" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 10">Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 10#Wikipedia:JDELANOY</a> I'm increasingly thinking it would be beneficial to make it explicit that anyone, even creators, requesting or endorsing G6 or G7 speedy deletion do not override good-faith objections to deletion from other editors nor past deletion discussions with a consensus for something other than deletion. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241020140200-G6_and_G7_when_others_object" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:02, 20 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-66" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Yes I agree, G5 should also probably be included for similar reasons, although the JDELANOY did anyway result in a consensus to delete. <a href="/wiki/User:Crouch,_Swale" title="User:Crouch, Swale">Crouch, Swale</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crouch,_Swale" title="User talk:Crouch, Swale">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Crouch,_Swale-20241020183400-Thryduulf-20241020140200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:34, 20 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-67" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>No, per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2024_October_12#Wikipedia:JDELANOY" title="Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2024 October 12">Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2024 October 12#Wikipedia:JDELANOY</a>. If there's already consensus for deletion at XfD it's not controversial. --<a href="/wiki/User:Tavix" title="User:Tavix"> Tavix</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tavix" title="User talk:Tavix">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Tavix-20241025172000-Thryduulf-20241020140200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:20, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-68" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>That's not how speedy deletion works. If there are good faith objections it's controversial unless and until someone competent closes a discussion with a consensus for deletion. Speedy deletion needs to be essentially unanimous, that consensus can emerge despite objections is irrelevant. This is also much broader than just one speedy deletion you happen to agree with. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241025174700-Tavix-20241025172000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-69" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>It's interesting that you use the phrase <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">essentially unanimous</q>. A good faith objection can fit under that definition. --<a href="/wiki/User:Tavix" title="User:Tavix"> Tavix</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tavix" title="User talk:Tavix">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Tavix-20241025182700-Thryduulf-20241025174700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:27, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-70" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>It shouldn't though. Any good faith objection should, by every reasonable interpretation of everything in this policy, overrule an author request or similar. If you have two editors, one saying "delete" the other saying "don't delete" that needs to go to a consensus discussion. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241025184700-Tavix-20241025182700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-71" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I suppose a better way of phrasing it would be that any good faith objection means that a page cannot be speedily deleted under G5, G6 or G7 except where there is an almost unanimous consensus at an XfD, as determined by an uninvolved admin (ideally the XfD should be closed as speedy delete by that admin before or immediately after they delete the page, but this doesn't need to be part of CSD policy). <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241025190900-Thryduulf-20241025184700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:09, 25 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-72" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>any more thoughts on this? <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241125113300-Thryduulf-20241020140200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:33, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-73" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>These three criteria kind of exist on a continuum here. G6 is defined by a lack of objection - any remotely-interpretable-as-good-faith objection at any point, pre- or post-deletion, should be enough to prevent/reverse it, and if you can talk yourself into refusing such an objection, then it wasn't a G6 to begin with. G7 has a higher bar; in most cases I'd ask the requester to articulate a reason, but probably accept anything coherent. ("Stuff shouldn't be deleted because it shouldn't be deleted" isn't coherent, and I'm afraid that's how I read the objections to WP:JDELANOY.) A G7 in someone else's userspace (so it'd have been a U1 too) has an even higher bar - it'd have to be a pretty good reason.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>G5, the main issue is sorting out whether the request is in good faith. If we're already at the point where we're deleting someone's pages on sight solely because of who made them, and they're already evading blocks to do it, AGF <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GFISNOT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GFISNOT">does not hold</a> - I'd want to be absolutely convinced that whoever's asking for the page back isn't the same person with yet another account. I'd certainly object to any language being added here that weakens that, because it absolutely will be weaponized as "It says right in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CSD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CSD">WP:CSD</a> that you have to [help me evade my ban by] undelet[ing] this, no questions asked." —<a href="/wiki/User:Cryptic" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Cryptic">Cryptic</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Cryptic-20241125161000-Thryduulf-20241125113300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-74" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>A brand new account requesting undeletion of something deleted under G5 is definitely a red flag (it might be in good faith, but its probably more likely not; a banned editor's request is not good faith) but an established editor's request should generally be honoured unless it was also deleted for some non-user-related reason (e.g copyvio). <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241125162200-Cryptic-20241125161000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:22, 25 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-75" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(3)"><h2 id="G8_definition_of_dependent" data-mw-thread-id="h-G8_definition_of_dependent-20241106220600">G8 definition of dependent</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: G8 definition of dependent" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-145' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Jo-Jo_Eumerus-20241111093700-Anomie-20241107130100">22 days ago</a>20 comments5 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-3 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-3"> The current status of G8 is for pages that are "dependent" on another page. But what exactly makes a page dependent? I have been <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2024_November_1#List_of_characters_in_Mario_&_Luigi:_Superstar_Saga" title="Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 1">told</a> by <a href="/wiki/User:Nyttend" title="User:Nyttend">Nyttend</a> that this only applies to redirects that target a redlink (paraphrased). But this goes against many current applications of G8, and also directly contradicts our definition at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:G8" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:G8">WP:G8</a>. Targeting a redlink is not a reason for deletion, because plausible titles should be retargeted in an attempt to seek <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ATD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ATD">alternatives to deletion</a> and is directly used as an example on when not to G8. Furthermore, redirects targeting blue links regularly get deleted due to G8 because of {{<a href="/wiki/User:AnomieBOT/Auto-G8" title="User:AnomieBOT/Auto-G8">User:AnomieBOT/Auto-G8</a>}}, so that's not it either. Nyttend said something about G8 being usable on "nonsense targets", such as pointing an unrelated title to "<a href="/wiki/Nuclear_physics" title="Nuclear physics">nuclear physics</a>", but I don't think this has anything to do with G8? Because the redirect can just be retargeted to a suitable location and G8/speedy deletion can be avoided entirely. But regardless, I think this text regarding something being "dependent" on another could be made a bit more clear because there seems to be a misunderstanding, and a revision may be helpful to clear things up. <a href="/wiki/User:Utopes" title="User:Utopes">Utopes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Utopes" title="User talk:Utopes">talk</a> / <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Utopes" title="Special:Contributions/Utopes">cont</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Utopes-20241106220600-G8_definition_of_dependent" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:06, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-76" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>G8 is a heavily overloaded criterion. We should consider splitting it up further. <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20241106222300-Utopes-20241106220600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:23, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-77" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>The only time G8 applies to redirects is when the target is a redlink and there is no suitable alternative. For example if <a href="/w/index.php?title=Trinidad_and_Tobago_at_the_2038_Winter_Olympics&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Trinidad and Tobago at the 2038 Winter Olympics (page does not exist)">Trinidad and Tobago at the 2038 Winter Olympics</a> was deleted at AfD, redirects to it are eligible to be deleted under G8. <a href="/w/index.php?title=Trinidad_%26_Tobago_at_the_2038_Winter_Olympics&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Trinidad & Tobago at the 2038 Winter Olympics (page does not exist)">Trinidad & Tobago at the 2038 Winter Olympics</a> has not other plausible target so it can and should be deleted under G8. See also <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_74#Tightening_G8_with_respect_to_redirects" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 74">Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 74#Tightening G8 with respect to redirects</a>. Outside of redirects it is perhaps most commonly used delete the talk page of pages that have been deleted.</dd> <dd>I don't find the "dependent" language at all counter intuitive, and don't really think there is much benefit to splitting (although I'm not opposed), unlike G6 it isn't a collection of unrelated things. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241106223300-Utopes-20241106220600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-78" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a>: if <a href="/wiki/%C4%B0zmir%E2%80%93Ayd%C4%B1n_Railway" class="mw-redirect" title="İzmir–Aydın Railway">İzmir–Aydın Railway</a> were to disappear for whatever reason, let's say the original creator of <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Chidgk1">Chidgk1</a> doesn't want it anymore, would <a href="/wiki/%C4%B0zmir-Ayd%C4%B1n_Railway" class="mw-redirect" title="İzmir-Aydın Railway">İzmir-Aydın Railway</a> (a "working" redirect) be eligible for G8? <a href="/wiki/User:Utopes" title="User:Utopes">Utopes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Utopes" title="User talk:Utopes">talk</a> / <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Utopes" title="Special:Contributions/Utopes">cont</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Utopes-20241106232200-Thryduulf-20241106223300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-79" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>No, the latter redirect would not be eligible for G8 because it's target exists. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241107081700-Utopes-20241106232200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-80" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Also, if it is true (and if there is consensus) that "the only time G8 applies to redirects is when the target is a redlink and there is no suitable alternative", this should be stated in the text for G8. Currently it says "<link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Examples include, but are not limited to...</q>", implying that there is a possible gray area, so it would be nice to tidy that up if there is no gray area for redirects at least, and if the uses for redirects are truly black and white. (Or maybe "the uses are blue and red" makes sense as a pun 😉) <a href="/wiki/User:Utopes" title="User:Utopes">Utopes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Utopes" title="User talk:Utopes">talk</a> / <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Utopes" title="Special:Contributions/Utopes">cont</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Utopes-20241106234700-Thryduulf-20241106223300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-81" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The criterion currently explicitly says <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">This criterion excludes any page that is useful to Wikipedia, and in particular: [...] Plausible redirects that can be changed to valid targets</q>. If a redirect's current target exists and/or it has a plausible alternative target then it is not dependent on a non-existent page. I'm not sure what more needs to be said? <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241107082100-Utopes-20241106234700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-82" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>My take on the G8 for AnomieBOT's redirects is that the bot-created redirect exists only as a navigational aid for the corresponding en-dash-containing title and wouldn't exist otherwise. Any reason (beyond maybe G5) for deleting the en-dash-containing title would almost certainly apply equally well to the bot redirect. And all that applies equally well whether the bot-created redirect points to the en-dash-containing title directly or whether we had to resolve a double redirect, because if it weren't for the need to bypass the double redirect then the bot-created redirect would point to the deleted en-dash-containing title. The mention of G7 (and, until just now, G6) in the bot's template is a sop to admins who have such an overly strict definition of G8 that they wouldn't apply it to this situation.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>As for whether that applies to any other redirect, you'd have to look at the specific situation to determine whether "this would almost certainly have pointed at the deleted title if it weren't for bypassing a double redirect" and/or a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IAR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IAR">WP:IAR</a> "oops, this was accidentally left out of the RfD for the other title" might apply. <a href="/wiki/User:Anomie" title="User:Anomie">Anomie</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anomie" title="User talk:Anomie">⚔</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Anomie-20241107130100-Utopes-20241106220600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-83" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>A redirect to an existing page is not dependent on a deleted or non-existing page by any reasonable reading of the criterion, just just an "overly strict" one. If there is a desire to speedy delete these other than via G7 (for pages created by bot, the bot operator is regarded as the author) then we need to create a new speedy deletion criterion, but ideally they should be nominated at RfD alongside the other redirect. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241107133600-Anomie-20241107130100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-84" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I find my reasoning much more convincing than your attempt at <a href="/wiki/Proof_by_assertion" title="Proof by assertion">proof by assertion</a>. 🤷 <a href="/wiki/User:Anomie" title="User:Anomie">Anomie</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anomie" title="User talk:Anomie">⚔</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Anomie-20241107134000-Thryduulf-20241107133600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-85" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Reading the words of the criterion and applying their literal meaning as explicitly clarified in 2019 at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_74#Tightening_G8_with_respect_to_redirects" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 74">Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 74#Tightening G8 with respect to redirects</a>. Anything else is creative reasoning that has no place in anything to do with speedy deletion. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241107134700-Anomie-20241107134000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-86" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>You're applying your own idiosyncratic definition of "dependent on" and asserting it's the only possible "literal meaning". I don't see anything at your lightly-attended RFC that's relevant here either. <a href="/wiki/User:Anomie" title="User:Anomie">Anomie</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anomie" title="User talk:Anomie">⚔</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Anomie-20241108131000-Thryduulf-20241107134700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-87" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>If you can't see anything relevant to G8 and redirects in a discussion the explicitly defined what G8 means in relation to redirects, and think that a redirect can be dependent on deleted or non-existent page that exists and isn't deleted then assuming good faith gets rather difficult. <a href="/wiki/User:Awkward42" title="User:Awkward42">Awkward42</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Awkward42" title="User talk:Awkward42">talk</a>) [the alternate account of <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>)] 16:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC) <a href="/wiki/User:Awkward42" title="User:Awkward42">Awkward42</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Awkward42" title="User talk:Awkward42">talk</a>) [the alternate account of <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>)] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241108163000-Anomie-20241108131000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-88" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I could say the same about you, continuing to baselessly assert your definition of "dependent on" is the only possible one, and somehow finding something relevant to what a redirect might be dependent on in an RFC about redirect loops and redirects to bad titles. <a href="/wiki/User:Anomie" title="User:Anomie">Anomie</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anomie" title="User talk:Anomie">⚔</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Anomie-20241109004700-Thryduulf-20241108163000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:47, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-89" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Please explain how a page can be "dependent on a deleted or non-existent page" when the page it is supposededly dependent on is neither deleted nor non-existent? As for the other discussion, it clarified that redirects to pages that don't exist are the only redirects that are subject to G8. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241109081500-Anomie-20241109004700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:15, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-90" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Because the page it's "dependent on" is deleted. You're insisting that the only page a redirect is "dependent on" is the current target, ignoring the possibility of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Double_redirects" title="Wikipedia:Double redirects">bypassed double redirects</a> resulting in a redirect pointing somewhere other than what it's dependent on. Perhaps you should re-read my original comment, where I already laid that out in more detail? As for your RFC, it did not at all establish that as the only possible condition where G8 would apply to a redirect. It removed some things from the one example directly addressing redirects, but <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk inline-quote-talk-marks">Examples include, but are not limited to</q> still applies. <a href="/wiki/User:Anomie" title="User:Anomie">Anomie</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anomie" title="User talk:Anomie">⚔</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Anomie-20241109134900-Thryduulf-20241109081500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-91" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>An avoided double redirect is not dependent on the page it is an avoided double redirect of, because it must still be a good redirect to the current target. If it isn't, or no longer is, then it needs to be discussed at RfD. Nyteend explained this, I've explained this, Utopes didn't read the full criterion and hasn't responded since that was pointed out. The "examples include" language is because G8 does not apply only to redirects - the linked discussion explicitly tightened G8 in relation to redirects to exactly one case: redirects targeting pages that don't exist. You don't like that, I understand that, but that doesn't mean that everybody other than you is wrong. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241110004200-Anomie-20241109134900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-92" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Again, I could say the same about you: just because you don't like that a redirect may be dependent on something other than its target doesn't make it untrue. But it seems unlikely I'll change your mind, so there seems little point in continuing this. <a href="/wiki/User:Anomie" title="User:Anomie">Anomie</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Anomie" title="User talk:Anomie">⚔</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Anomie-20241110022700-Thryduulf-20241110004200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:27, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-93" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>what I like or don't like is irrelevant - a redirect can't be dependent on something other than its target. It may or may not be a good redirect, but that is a very different question. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241110142000-Anomie-20241110022700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-94" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>To me, the use of <a href="/wiki/User:AnomieBOT/Auto-G8" title="User:AnomieBOT/Auto-G8">User:AnomieBOT/Auto-G8</a> on pages like <a href="/wiki/Gumelni%C8%9Ba-Karanovo_culture" class="mw-redirect" title="Gumelnița-Karanovo culture">Gumelnița-Karanovo culture</a> sounds like it's actually within the remit of G6, akin to <a href="/wiki/Template:Db-xfd" title="Template:Db-xfd">Template:Db-xfd</a>, rather than G8, since the issue is "deletion reason for A-B is also applicable to A–B" rather than "A–B is dependent on A-B". A minor wrinkle might be if there are pertinent differences between A–B and A-B that justify deleting the one but not the other. <a href="/wiki/User:Jo-Jo_Eumerus" title="User:Jo-Jo Eumerus">Jo-Jo Eumerus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jo-Jo_Eumerus" title="User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Jo-Jo_Eumerus-20241111093700-Anomie-20241107130100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:37, 11 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-95" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(4)"><h2 id="G12_and_wording_from_WP:CP" data-mw-thread-id="h-G12_and_wording_from_WP:CP-20241108031000">G12 and wording from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CP">WP:CP</a></h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: G12 and wording from WP:CP" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-146' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Sennecaster-20241110080900-Sennecaster-20241108031000">23 days ago</a>2 comments1 person in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-4 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-4"> Hi everyone, some of us over at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CP">copyright problems</a> are overhauling the instructions there. Our goal is trying to move stuff that isn't directly related to the board elsewhere since it's currently functioning as the "how to handle all text CV on WIkipedia when <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CV101" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CV101">WP:CV101</a> doesn't suffice" page on top of having rolling listings like AfD. Anyways, I noticed that our language is a lot less wordy than the current language, but doesn't contradict anything said here.. I propose that we merge over at least the bullet points in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyright_problems#Blatant_infringement" title="Wikipedia:Copyright problems">WP:Copyright problems#Blatant infringement</a> to the G12 description, mimicking G13 and G14. If any wording changes are required to make it more clear or closely aligned to the current wording, I don't mind. <a href="/wiki/User:Sennecaster" title="User:Sennecaster">Sennecaster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sennecaster" title="User talk:Sennecaster">Chat</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Sennecaster-20241108031000-G12_and_wording_from_WP:CP" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-96" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I've copied over and edited the wording some; copyright cleanup instructions tended to be long winded back in 2010.</dd> <dd>Pages with blatant copyright infringements may be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Speedy_deletions" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Speedy deletions">speedily deleted</a> if: <ul><li>The content was copied from a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMPAT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMPAT">non-compatible</a> source that is not <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BACKWARDSCOPY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BACKWARDSCOPY">copied from Wikipedia</a>.</li> <li>The entire page history has copyright infringement and does not have any non-infringing content worth saving .</li> <li>There is no credible assertion of public domain, fair use, or a free license.</li></ul></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Sennecaster" title="User:Sennecaster">Sennecaster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sennecaster" title="User talk:Sennecaster">Chat</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Sennecaster-20241110080900-Sennecaster-20241108031000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-97" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(5)"><h2 id="Suggestion_on_expansion_of_speedy_criteria" data-mw-thread-id="h-Suggestion_on_expansion_of_speedy_criteria-20241108031500">Suggestion on expansion of speedy criteria</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Suggestion on expansion of speedy criteria" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-147' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Awesome_Aasim-20241109014100-Suggestion_on_expansion_of_speedy_criteria">24 days ago</a>15 comments3 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-5 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-5"> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1250141580"><div class="boilerplate archived archive-top mw-archivedtalk" style=""><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1235681985"><div class="side-box metadata side-box-right archive-top-result" style="padding: 10px; line-height: inherit;"> <div class="side-box-flex"> <div class="side-box-text" style="padding: 0;">Withdrawn by OP. <a href="/wiki/User:Awesome_Aasim" title="User:Awesome Aasim">Awesome</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Awesome_Aasim" title="User talk:Awesome Aasim">Aasim</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Awesome_Aasim-20241109014100-Suggestion_on_expansion_of_speedy_criteria" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:41, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-98" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></div></div> </div> <div class="boilerplate-header" style="margin-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic;"> The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. </div> <hr> I am thinking of two new criteria for potential expansion of the speedy criteria. Specifically, under the following: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"><blockquote class="talkquote"> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="MediaWiki">MediaWiki</h3></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="MW1:_Duplicate_MediaWiki_pages">MW1: Duplicate MediaWiki pages</h4></div> <ul><li>This applies to MediaWiki pages which exactly duplicate the message provided in the software, for example by providing identical wording. This does not apply if the duplicate message has additional links, formatting, or logic that are specific to the English Wikipedia. Please check <a href="/wiki/Special:AllMessages" title="Special:AllMessages">Special:AllMessages</a> before nominating the page for deletion.</li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="MW2:_Unused_MediaWiki_pages">MW2: Unused MediaWiki pages</h4></div> <ul><li>MediaWiki pages that are currently unused in the software. This includes edit filter messages not in use by an edit filter and title blacklist messages not being displayed for any blacklisted entry. Before nominating the page, please check <a href="/wiki/Special:AllMessages" title="Special:AllMessages">Special:AllMessages</a> and <a href="/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter" title="Special:AbuseFilter">Special:AbuseFilter</a> and in the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:VPT">technical village pump</a> to see if the message is indeed in use.</li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading4"><h4 id="MW3:_Foreign_language_messages">MW3: Foreign language messages</h4></div> <ul><li>This applies to internationalizations of English Wikipedia interface messages (for example, /es, /fr, /de language subpages). This does not apply to English variants. This also does not apply if there is an established consensus in the technical village pump for internationalizing a specific message for use on the English Wikipedia.</li></ul> </blockquote> I feel inclined that MW2 in this case would be a special case of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:G6" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:G6">WP:G6</a>, probably MW1 and MW2. If needbe, these can be "exceptional criteria" as well. A few years ago I discovered dozens of foreign language interface messages that IMHO provide very little value for English Wikipedia contributors, including <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki:Noarticletext/es" title="MediaWiki:Noarticletext/es">MediaWiki:Noarticletext/es</a>. Convenience is different from helpfulness, and we should not be encouraging users who do not have a strong command of English to be attempting to edit English Wikipedia. They can provide suggestions for edits if they think something is wrong, but should not be directly editing the project. This is just an idea at this stage, and I want to get feedback for how to word this before proposing. <a href="/wiki/User:Awesome_Aasim" title="User:Awesome Aasim">Awesome</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Awesome_Aasim" title="User talk:Awesome Aasim">Aasim</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Awesome_Aasim-20241108031500-Suggestion_on_expansion_of_speedy_criteria" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-99" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_87#Adding_a_new_criteria_for_unused_MediaWiki_messages" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 87">/Archive 87#Adding a new criteria for unused MediaWiki messages</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_78#Add_criteria_for_MediaWiki_namespaces" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 78">/Archive 78#Add criteria for MediaWiki namespaces</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:Abusefilter-disallowed/de" title="Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/MediaWiki:Abusefilter-disallowed/de">Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/MediaWiki:Abusefilter-disallowed/de</a>. Don't think anything has changed since to make speedy deletion any more appropriate, although your persistence is admirable. <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20241108033600-Awesome_Aasim-20241108031500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I think I forgot because it was over eight months ago. I do appreciate reposting though. Would any of these fall under G6 in your opinion? <a href="/wiki/User:Awesome_Aasim" title="User:Awesome Aasim">Awesome</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Awesome_Aasim" title="User talk:Awesome Aasim">Aasim</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Awesome_Aasim-20241108034500-Pppery-20241108033600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-101" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Foreign language messages definitely wouldn't - given the comments in the linked discussion there doesn't seem to be consensus these should be deleted, so they aren't uncontroversial. Again based on comments in other discussions, G6 will probably not apply to pages with meaningful history. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241108035600-Awesome_Aasim-20241108034500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-102" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <table class="wikitable sortable floatright collapsible"> <caption>MfD discussions of MediaWiki namespace pages 2004-2024 </caption> <tbody><tr> <th>Year</th> <th>Discussions </th></tr> <tr> <td>2024</td> <td>5 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2023</td> <td>5 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2022</td> <td>2 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2021</td> <td>4 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2020</td> <td>4 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2019</td> <td>6 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2018</td> <td>3 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2017</td> <td>4 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2016</td> <td>2 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2015</td> <td>6 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2013</td> <td>1 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2012</td> <td>1 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2011</td> <td>4 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2010</td> <td>2 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2009</td> <td>0 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2008</td> <td>1 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2007</td> <td>4 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2006</td> <td>4 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2005</td> <td>1 </td></tr> <tr> <td>2004</td> <td>1 </td></tr></tbody></table> <ul><li>Oppose for the same reason it was rejected in March, specifically a gratuitous failure of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NEWCSD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NEWCSD">WP:NEWCSD</a> point 3 (frequent). Based on the comments in that discussion and Pppery's links, I'm also unconvinced this would pass points 2 and 4 (uncontestable, non-redundant) requirements. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241108035200-Suggestion_on_expansion_of_speedy_criteria" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-103" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>And the stats on total deletions haven't changed. All MediaWiki: deletions in 2024 ever: <a href="/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sandbox.js&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MediaWiki:Sandbox.js (page does not exist)">MediaWiki:Sandbox.js</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:X.js&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MediaWiki:X.js (page does not exist)">MediaWiki:X.js</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Test2.js&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MediaWiki:Test2.js (page does not exist)">MediaWiki:Test2.js</a> (twice), <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki:Prefs-help-forcesafemode" title="MediaWiki:Prefs-help-forcesafemode">MediaWiki:Prefs-help-forcesafemode</a>, <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki:Mergehistory-done" title="MediaWiki:Mergehistory-done">MediaWiki:Mergehistory-done</a>, <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki:Prefs-common-config" title="MediaWiki:Prefs-common-config">MediaWiki:Prefs-common-config</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Abusefilter-warning-DS&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MediaWiki:Abusefilter-warning-DS (page does not exist)">MediaWiki:Abusefilter-warning-DS</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Dberrortext&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MediaWiki:Dberrortext (page does not exist)">MediaWiki:Dberrortext</a>, <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki:Wikihiero-usage-tracking-category" title="MediaWiki:Wikihiero-usage-tracking-category">MediaWiki:Wikihiero-usage-tracking-category</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Guidedtour-tour-twa1sandbox.js&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MediaWiki:Guidedtour-tour-twa1sandbox.js (page does not exist)">MediaWiki:Guidedtour-tour-twa1sandbox.js</a> through <a href="/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Guidedtour-tour-twa7sandbox.js&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MediaWiki:Guidedtour-tour-twa7sandbox.js (page does not exist)">MediaWiki:Guidedtour-tour-twa7sandbox.js</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Cite_error_references_missing_group&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MediaWiki:Cite error references missing group (page does not exist)">MediaWiki:Cite_error_references_missing_group</a> and five subpages of it, <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki:Vector-night-mode-gadget-names" title="MediaWiki:Vector-night-mode-gadget-names">MediaWiki:Vector-night-mode-gadget-names</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:NewcomerTasks.json&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MediaWiki:NewcomerTasks.json (page does not exist)">MediaWiki:NewcomerTasks.json</a>, <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki:Parser-template-loop-warning" title="MediaWiki:Parser-template-loop-warning">MediaWiki:Parser-template-loop-warning</a>, <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki:Skin-theme-exclusion-notice" title="MediaWiki:Skin-theme-exclusion-notice">MediaWiki:Skin-theme-exclusion-notice</a>, <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki:Recentchanges-legend-plusminus" title="MediaWiki:Recentchanges-legend-plusminus">MediaWiki:Recentchanges-legend-plusminus</a>, <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki:Linkstoimage" title="MediaWiki:Linkstoimage">MediaWiki:Linkstoimage</a>, <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki:Copyright/ko" title="MediaWiki:Copyright/ko">MediaWiki:Copyright/ko</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Wikimedia-copyright/pt&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="MediaWiki:Wikimedia-copyright/pt (page does not exist)">MediaWiki:Wikimedia-copyright/pt</a>. <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> That's 3 MFDs, 11 G7s, 1 G6 to make way for a move, and 15 (11 by local admins, 6 deletions by WMF scripts/staff) that don't fit in any other category. <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Admittedly, there are admins doing deletions under something similar to MW1/MW2 already, but the policy/enforcement dissonance can never be resolved here and I've basically given up trying. <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20241108041000-Thryduulf-20241108035200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-104" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>For the other two, would those fall under G6? In other words, would lines adding "MediaWiki messages whose override duplicates what is provided in the software" and "MediaWiki messages not used in the interface" be appropriate? <a href="/wiki/User:Awesome_Aasim" title="User:Awesome Aasim">Awesome</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Awesome_Aasim" title="User talk:Awesome Aasim">Aasim</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Awesome_Aasim-20241108045100-Pppery-20241108041000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-105" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>G6 is not a dumping ground. Adding addition criteria to G6 still requires meeting the NEWCSD requirements. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241108105500-Awesome_Aasim-20241108045100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-106" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>By the nature of MediaWiki namespace, there never will be frequent deletions. That does not mean that there will never be uncontroversial deletions. In MediaWiki: space, deletion does not just remove all the revisions to a message, it also reverts the message back to the default stored in the database. That does not mean we should not speedy MediaWiki: pages as part of routine cleanup, etc. when messages get moved around or stop being used. <a href="/wiki/User:Awesome_Aasim" title="User:Awesome Aasim">Awesome</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Awesome_Aasim" title="User talk:Awesome Aasim">Aasim</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Awesome_Aasim-20241108160800-Thryduulf-20241108105500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-107" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Not every uncontroversial deletion needs to be a speedy deletion. Speedy deletions are the exception to the norm for high volume uncontroversial deletions that will overwhelm other deletion venues. <a href="/wiki/User:Awkward42" title="User:Awkward42">Awkward42</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Awkward42" title="User talk:Awkward42">talk</a>) [the alternate account of <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>)] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241108162500-Awesome_Aasim-20241108160800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-108" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>There is also <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SNOW" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SNOW">WP:SNOW</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IAR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IAR">WP:IAR</a>. Are you asking that we run every single MediaWiki message that uncontroversially will be deleted through MFD? That sounds like more bureaucracy with minimal benefit. G6 might be the best application of this.</dd> <dd>Also, why are we so obsessed around these four criteria of speedy criteria? You had me run not one, but two RfCs, to add an expansion of G5 to include pages created in violation of general sanctions, something that has already been happening de facto. I see that box at the top of the page really aimed at new users who do not have a full understanding of how we do things here on Wikipedia, and who are most likely to propose new criteria.</dd> <dd>I did start an RfC a long, long time ago about internationalizations of messages. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_183#Foreign-language_interface_messages" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 183">Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 183#Foreign-language interface messages</a>.</dd> <dd>If any of these criteria is one time and can be botted easily, what could be done as soon as there is consensus is that we can just delete the pages, add some text to the "obsolete" criteria, and then put this to bed.</dd> <dd>Also, can we consider how many deletions have happened without discussion? I remember someone did a database query to get all deletions in MediaWiki: space. Can we see?</dd> <dd>What I would like done in any case is to exempt talk pages in MediaWiki: space from G8 after deletion unless if the message after deletion does not exist in the software anymore. <a href="/wiki/User:Awesome_Aasim" title="User:Awesome Aasim">Awesome</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Awesome_Aasim" title="User talk:Awesome Aasim">Aasim</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Awesome_Aasim-20241108180400-Thryduulf-20241108162500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-109" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Are you asking that we run every single MediaWiki message that uncontroversially will be deleted through MFD?</q> Every page that you want to delete must go through the relevant XfD unless, exceptionally, it meets a speedy deletion criterion (or, in the case of an article, can be prodded). This is not <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">bureaucracy with minimal benefit</q> this one of the fundamental principles of wikipedia: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus" title="Wikipedia:Consensus">WP:Consensus</a>.</dd> <dd>The box (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NEWCSD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NEWCSD">WP:NEWCSD</a>) is there because the consensus of the English Wikipedia community is that every new or expanded CSD criterion must meet all of those four criteria. Consensus applies to everyone equally. If you don't like it, get consensus to change it.</dd> <dd>If you want to propose a one-time exceptional deletion then explicitly propose that, with details of what you want to delete, why you want to delete it, evidence that other people also want to delete them, and why you can't just do one or match batches at MfD. If your proposal gets consensus then the deletion can happen, if it doesn't, it can't and you'll have to go to MFD. <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241108183900-Awesome_Aasim-20241108180400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-110" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>It's also worth pointing out that Aasim has started <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:Abusefilter-blocker" title="Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/MediaWiki:Abusefilter-blocker">Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/MediaWiki:Abusefilter-blocker</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:Edit" title="Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/MediaWiki:Edit">Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/MediaWiki:Edit</a>, neither of which is heading toward a clear delete consensus, and also made an attempt at <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Protect" title="MediaWiki talk:Protect">MediaWiki talk:Protect</a> to speedy delete <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki:Protect" title="MediaWiki:Protect">MediaWiki:Protect</a> under G6 which was declined. <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Awesome Aasim also has a history of numerous failed proposals of various sorts related to technical stuff. So I would strongly suggest they desist. <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20241108184800-Thryduulf-20241108183900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-111" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Here's what I am going to do.</dd> <dd>I am going to withdraw the MFDs (all but the abuse filter one that has a delete statement). I am going to withdraw this discussion as well. I am actually going to raise the issue in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:VPT">WP:VPT</a> to get additional help. There are lots of technical things that I wish to see that I believe are better for the community. But I think at this stage I should probably check in to see what is up with where these messages are left over from. <a href="/wiki/User:Awesome_Aasim" title="User:Awesome Aasim">Awesome</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Awesome_Aasim" title="User talk:Awesome Aasim">Aasim</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Awesome_Aasim-20241109014000-Pppery-20241108184800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:40, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-112" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul> <div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div> </div><div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(6)"><h2 id='Remove_"or_in_the_incorrect_namespace"_from_the_G6_bullet_point' data-mw-thread-id='h-Remove_"or_in_the_incorrect_namespace"_from_the_G6_bullet_point-20241112192200'>Remove "or in the incorrect namespace" from the G6 bullet point</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=edit&section=14" title='Edit section: Remove "or in the incorrect namespace" from the G6 bullet point' class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-148' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Primefac-20241112195600-Thryduulf-20241112193600">21 days ago</a>5 comments4 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-6 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-6"> "Deleting pages unambiguously created in error or in the incorrect namespace, or redirects created by moving away from a title that was obviously unintended" should be simplified to "Deleting pages unambiguously created in error, or redirects created by moving away from a title that was obviously unintended." If a page is created in the incorrect namespace it should be moved to the correct namespace, and then the redirect is covered by the second clause. <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20241112192200-Remove_%22or_in_the_incorrect_namespace%22_from_the_G6_bullet_point" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:22, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-113" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I'd be okay with that, I suppose. Technically a redirect from say <a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Example&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Example (page does not exist)">Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Example</a> that should actually be at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Example" title="Wikipedia:Example">Wikipedia:Example</a> would be eligible for R3 deletion, as would the redirect left behind if say someone moved <a href="/wiki/Draft:Example" title="Draft:Example">Draft:Example</a> to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Example" title="Wikipedia:Example">Wikipedia:Example</a> by accident before it was moved to the proper location of <a href="/wiki/Example" class="mw-disambig" title="Example">Example</a> (with the Draft redirect retargeted first). <a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac">Primefac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Primefac" title="User talk:Primefac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Primefac-20241112192500-Pppery-20241112192200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-114" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>They're only eligible for R3 if discovered shortly after creation, which is not always the case (sometimes such redirects linger for years), so the redirect language here is not redundant to R3. I'm currently neutral on the proposed change. I can't immediately think of any problems the it would cause, but I'm not yet certain I have thought of everything so I'm not going to support (yet). <a href="/wiki/User:Thryduulf" title="User:Thryduulf">Thryduulf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thryduulf" title="User talk:Thryduulf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Thryduulf-20241112193600-Primefac-20241112192500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-115" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Fair enough. <a href="/wiki/User:Primefac" title="User:Primefac">Primefac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Primefac" title="User talk:Primefac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Primefac-20241112195600-Thryduulf-20241112193600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-116" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>I've always understood the intent here was for post-move redirects, like in the second half. (But I'm too distracted right now to go looking through the history, so maybe it's always been way worse than I thought.) Maybe we can retain and clarify this with "Deleting pages unambiguously created in error, or redirects created by moving away from a title <ins>or namespace</ins> that was obviously unintended."? Yes, it's a little redundant - the namespace is part of the title - but it would be a stronger discouragement to just speedying e.g. drafts in Wikipedia: space instead of moving them. —<a href="/wiki/User:Cryptic" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Cryptic">Cryptic</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Cryptic-20241112194000-Pppery-20241112192200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-117" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(7)"><h2 id='What_does_"no_substantial_edits_by_others_not_subject_to_the_ban_or_sanctions"_mean?' data-mw-thread-id='h-What_does_"no_substantial_edits_by_others_not_subject_to_the_ban_or_sanctions"_m-20241127003800'>What does "no substantial edits by others not subject to the ban or sanctions" mean?</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=edit&section=15" title='Edit section: What does "no substantial edits by others not subject to the ban or sanctions" mean?' class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-149' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Rosguill-20241127005000-JJPMaster-20241127003800">6 days ago</a>2 comments2 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-7 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-7"> G5 says that a page can only be deleted under that criterion if there are "no substantial edits by others not subject to the ban or sanctions". However, if the sanction being violated is a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CT">CT</a> restriction, does this refer to no editors not subject to the sanction, or no editors other than the original author not subject to the sanction? For instance, if two non-EC editors collaborate on an <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RUSUKR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RUSUKR">RUSUKR</a> page, is that G5able? <a href="/wiki/User:JJPMaster" title="User:JJPMaster">JJP</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:JJPMaster" title="User talk:JJPMaster">Mas</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/JJPMaster" title="Special:Contributions/JJPMaster">ter</a> (<a href="/wiki/She_(pronoun)" title="She (pronoun)">she</a>/<a href="/wiki/Singular_they" title="Singular they">they</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-JJPMaster-20241127003800-What_does_%22no_substantial_edits_by_others_not_subject_to_the_ban_or_sanctions%22_m" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:38, 27 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-118" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Yes, if two non-EC editors collaborate to create a RUSUKR or other EC topic, it is G5able. signed, <a href="/wiki/User:Rosguill" title="User:Rosguill">Rosguill</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rosguill" title="User talk:Rosguill">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Rosguill-20241127005000-JJPMaster-20241127003800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:50, 27 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-119" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(8)"><h2 id="Circumventing_a_salted_title:_G4_or_not?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Circumventing_a_salted_title:_G4_or_not?-20241128173500">Circumventing a salted title: G4 or not?</h2> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&action=edit&section=16" title="Edit section: Circumventing a salted title: G4 or not?" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> edit </a> <span id='ooui-php-150' class='ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-buttonWidget' data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonMenuSelectWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"ellipsis","data":{"itemConfigs":[{"id":"edit","data":{"id":"edit"},"icon":"edit","label":"Edit"}],"resourceLoaderModules":[]},"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-section-overflowMenuButton"]}'><a role='button' tabindex='0' rel='nofollow' class='oo-ui-buttonElement-button'></a><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata">Latest comment: <a href="#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241203191600-Tamzin-20241201203300">4 hours ago</a>23 comments7 people in discussion</div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div><section class="mf-section-8 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-8"> It isn't very rare to see salted pages being recreated at variants of their original title, for instance <a href="/w/index.php?title=Arshin_Mehta_Actress&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Arshin Mehta Actress (page does not exist)">Arshin Mehta Actress</a> today (as <a href="/w/index.php?title=Arshin_Mehta&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Arshin Mehta (page does not exist)">Arshin Mehta</a> is fully protected from recreation). In these cases, I've seen G4 be used, although it might not necessarily fit if the content isn't the same as the deleted one. Does G4 still apply, should it be expanded/another criterion added, or is that something that shouldn't be in the purview of CSD? <a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby">Chaotic Enby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chaotic_Enby" title="User talk:Chaotic Enby">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chaotic_Enby" title="Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241128173500-Circumventing_a_salted_title:_G4_or_not?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:35, 28 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-120" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>G4 applies since there was an AFD on the same topic (assuming concerns haven't been addressed) but not simply because of the salt. <a href="/wiki/User:Crouch,_Swale" title="User:Crouch, Swale">Crouch, Swale</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crouch,_Swale" title="User talk:Crouch, Swale">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Crouch,_Swale-20241128173800-Chaotic_Enby-20241128173500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:38, 28 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-121" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Still surprised that evading a salted title isn't considered an explicit CSD criterion, since the salting is usually there to prevent users from recreating any page on the topic to begin with, not just a substantially similar one. Although I don't have the numbers to check how frequently it happens. <a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby">Chaotic Enby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chaotic_Enby" title="User talk:Chaotic Enby">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chaotic_Enby" title="Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241128174200-Crouch,_Swale-20241128173800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:42, 28 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-122" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_88#Proposed_new_or_modified_criterion:_clear_SALT_evasion" title="Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 88">/Archive 88#Proposed new or modified criterion: clear SALT evasion</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20241128174400-Chaotic_Enby-20241128174200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:44, 28 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-123" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Thanks for both the previous proposal and the false positive list! <a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby">Chaotic Enby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chaotic_Enby" title="User talk:Chaotic Enby">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chaotic_Enby" title="Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241128195500-Pppery-20241128174400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:55, 28 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-124" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>(<a href="/wiki/Help:Edit_conflict" title="Help:Edit conflict">edit conflict</a>) I've G4-deleted the recreation and blocked the account (which was the same one that created the version at AfD) as spam/advertising-only. I came extremely close to <a href="/wiki/MediaWiki:Titleblacklist" title="MediaWiki:Titleblacklist">title blacklisting</a>, but decided that step isn't quite warranted unless they evade the block and create another version at a different title. <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20241128174300-Crouch,_Swale-20241128173800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:43, 28 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-125" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd> <dd>I have a database report I look at every day or two that finds articles at titles that are a suffix of a salted title. There are <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery/Salt_evasion" title="User:Pppery/Salt evasion">a lot of false positives</a>, but also a lot of stuff needing attention. And while G4 is my most common reaction, I have also created redirects or given name pages over obsolete saltings, started AfDs where I wasn't convinced enough that G4 applies, and done a lot of other stuff. <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20241128175500-Chaotic_Enby-20241128173500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:55, 28 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-126" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The issue is that, if we don't have a G4 equivalent for salt evasion, it means running through a new AfD each time someone tries to give a different title to the same topic, which goes against the point of salting to begin with. Often, the fact that the content might be technically different (since non-admin reviewers can't see the content) means that G4 won't necessarily be applied, even if it doesn't address the issues of the previous AfD at all.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>In the case of obsolete saltings, I believe the best course of action would be to ask to create the page at the original title – if it is still the same topic, I don't see why creating the page under a different title would be necessary (and, if it is a different topic like in your given name page example, then it's not salt evasion to begin with). <a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby">Chaotic Enby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chaotic_Enby" title="User talk:Chaotic Enby">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chaotic_Enby" title="Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241128195400-Pppery-20241128175500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:54, 28 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-127" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>If there has been an AFD for the previous salted title then G4 applies regardless of title (unless concerns have addressed) otherwise G5, A7 or G11 often apply if not then AFD is probably the best thing to do. In the case of Arshin Mehta Actress G4 applied (G5 might also have applied but I don't know) and was used even though it had a different title to the article deleted at AFD. <a href="/wiki/User:Crouch,_Swale" title="User:Crouch, Swale">Crouch, Swale</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crouch,_Swale" title="User talk:Crouch, Swale">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Crouch,_Swale-20241128215800-Chaotic_Enby-20241128195400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:58, 28 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-128" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>True, but the issue is that G4 currently explicitly refers to <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">sufficiently identical copies</q>, something a non-admin patroller can't check, rather than any recreation not addressing concerns. <a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby">Chaotic Enby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chaotic_Enby" title="User talk:Chaotic Enby">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chaotic_Enby" title="Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241129134700-Crouch,_Swale-20241128215800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:47, 29 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-129" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>If you're not sure if G4 applies then you can tag the page with {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Salt" title="Template:Salt">salt</a>}}, ask the deleting admin (or another admin) or just tag it with G4 and see if the new admin thinks G4 applies. <a href="/wiki/User:Crouch,_Swale" title="User:Crouch, Swale">Crouch, Swale</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crouch,_Swale" title="User talk:Crouch, Swale">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Crouch,_Swale-20241130203600-Chaotic_Enby-20241129134700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:36, 30 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-130" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>As far as I can tell, {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Salt" title="Template:Salt">salt</a>}} on its own doesn't add any categories to a page. <a href="/wiki/User:Jlwoodwa" title="User:Jlwoodwa">jlwoodwa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jlwoodwa" title="User talk:Jlwoodwa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Jlwoodwa-20241201051800-Crouch,_Swale-20241130203600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:18, 1 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-131" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Well that could be something useful to have. Given the specific title, I wonder if it should add the category itself or if there should be a similar maintenance template for "possible salt evasion" that would add it? <a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby">Chaotic Enby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chaotic_Enby" title="User talk:Chaotic Enby">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chaotic_Enby" title="Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241201201900-Jlwoodwa-20241201051800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:19, 1 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-132" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Sometimes there'll be an archived copy of a deleted page to compare against, for instance <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20241109045405/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arshin_Mehta">[1]</a>. Sometimes there'll be visible past versions in the edit filter log, for instance <a href="/wiki/Special:AbuseLog/39211633" title="Special:AbuseLog/39211633">Special:AbuseLog/39211633</a>. In other cases, you can ask an admin. There's usually someone around on IRC or Discord who wouldn't mind assessing for G4ability. (Not me. Don't ask me. I hate doing G4s.) That said, I wouldn't oppose the creation of a template that says essentially "This page was created in apparent evasion of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SALT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SALT">creation protection</a> at <code>{{{1}}}</code>, and an admin is asked to assess whether it should a) be deleted under <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CSD_G4" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CSD G4">CSD G4</a> or b) treated as valid and moved to the correct title". I don't think that's something non-admins should be doing every time they see a recreated page, but when there's clear salt evasion I think it's reasonable to presume admin attention is needed. (All that said, obligatory plug for my essay <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOSALT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOSALT">WP:NOSALT</a>. G4s are easier to trace when there's no salting to evade!) -- <a href="/wiki/User:Tamzin" title="User:Tamzin">Tamzin</a>[<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tamzin" title="User talk:Tamzin">cetacean needed</a>] (<a href="/wiki/User:Tamzin/%F0%9F%A4%B7" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Tamzin/🤷">they|xe|🤷</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Tamzin-20241201203300-Chaotic_Enby-20241129134700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:33, 1 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-133" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I to question how useful salting actually is especially how easy it is to use a qualified title or typo etc. But in addition to false positives with the title blacklist I'd point out that while indefinite salting may be useful for generic vandalism titles or if a title like <a href="/wiki/Articles_for_deletion" class="mw-redirect" title="Articles for deletion">Articles for deletion</a> before it was a mainspace redirect that different people are likely to keep creating, many indefinitely salted articles are those created by sockpuppeteers, spammers or SPAs years ago where the person may well have long left or the topic may have become notable or a different topic with the same name may need the title. I'd suggest we should perhaps recommend only salting for a year or so for many NN topics. <a href="/wiki/User:Crouch,_Swale" title="User:Crouch, Swale">Crouch, Swale</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Crouch,_Swale" title="User talk:Crouch, Swale">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Crouch,_Swale-20241201213600-Tamzin-20241201203300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:36, 1 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-134" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I think the easiest solution to the general problem you describe would be a sentence at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SALT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SALT">WP:SALT</a> saying that salted titles that could plausibly refer to more than one thing may be unsalted, without needing to talk to the protecting admin, if there is no apparent relevant disruption in the past five years. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Tamzin" title="User:Tamzin">Tamzin</a>[<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tamzin" title="User talk:Tamzin">cetacean needed</a>] (<a href="/wiki/User:Tamzin/%F0%9F%A4%B7" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Tamzin/🤷">they|xe|🤷</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Tamzin-20241201215400-Crouch,_Swale-20241201213600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-135" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Apparent to who? If a title's salted, there's not going to be any further disruption there. (Well, maybe on its talk page, but almost nobody persists after the first G8, and when they do, that usually gets salted too.) Most of the point of talking to the protecting admin is because they're likely to be more familiar with the situation as a whole, and if it's been five years, taking another day or two to ask and make sure isn't going to hurt anybody. —<a href="/wiki/User:Cryptic" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Cryptic">Cryptic</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Cryptic-20241201233200-Tamzin-20241201215400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:32, 1 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-136" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>The issue is that normal <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RAAA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RAAA">WP:RAAA</a> requirements make it essentially impossible to clean up pointless old saltings at scale. A while ago I tried to do a review of indef IP blocks, and quickly ran into this problem. For each block, if I wasn't 100% confident they'd just pressed the wrong button, I had to go to the blocking admin's talkpage, and then check back a few days later, and then if they object, even for an invalid reason, it has to go to AN or XRV to resolve the minor question of some random IP's block, so in practice no one does this, and bad IP indefs accumulate over time. The same is happening with saltings, and will continue to happen so long as there's a multi-step bureaucracy in order to unsalt a relatively common name like <a href="/w/index.php?title=Jimmie_Harris&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Jimmie Harris (page does not exist)">Jimmie Harris</a> or <a href="/w/index.php?title=Luke_Barber&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Luke Barber (page does not exist)">Luke Barber</a>, to pick two examples that have been salted for almost 17 years and have a ~0% chance of being recreated about the same person as before. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Tamzin" title="User:Tamzin">Tamzin</a>[<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tamzin" title="User talk:Tamzin">cetacean needed</a>] (<a href="/wiki/User:Tamzin/%F0%9F%A4%B7" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Tamzin/🤷">they|xe|🤷</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Tamzin-20241201235300-Cryptic-20241201233200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:53, 1 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-137" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>And, of course, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive229#Quick_stats_on_salted_pages" title="Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive229">Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive229#Quick stats on salted pages</a>. The protecting admin for both of your examples is no longer an admin, so you should be free to unsalt them. <a href="/wiki/User:Pppery" title="User:Pppery">* Pppery *</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pppery" title="User talk:Pppery">it has begun...</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Pppery-20241202001000-Tamzin-20241201235300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:10, 2 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-138" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd> <dd>To clean up old SALTing, where there’s any doubt you should go to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFUP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFUP">WP:RFUP</a>. True, you should ask the deleting admin first, but the text would be near identical in both places, should the old admin not answer or you not agree with their answer.</dd> <dd>Do this a couple of dozen times, and then talk about the need for streamlining the process. <a href="/wiki/User:SmokeyJoe" title="User:SmokeyJoe">SmokeyJoe</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SmokeyJoe" title="User talk:SmokeyJoe">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-SmokeyJoe-20241202044700-Tamzin-20241201235300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-139" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>I don't think admins need to ask at RFUP before they unsalt pages. <a href="/wiki/User:Jlwoodwa" title="User:Jlwoodwa">jlwoodwa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jlwoodwa" title="User talk:Jlwoodwa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Jlwoodwa-20241202045200-SmokeyJoe-20241202044700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-140" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a> <dl><dd>Except where stated otherwise in policy, any reversion of an admin action is governed by <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RAAA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RAAA">WP:RAAA</a>. The way that policy is usually interpreted, that means that if the reversion is because of a clear change in circumstance, it can be done unilaterally; I did that with <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Willy_on_Wheels&redirect=no">Willy on Wheels</a>, the relevant change there having been the emergence of a suitable redirect target. But if it's because some admin thinks the title just doesn't need to be protected anymore, then RAAA's expectation of discussion applies (if the protecting admin is still active). <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IAR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IAR">WP:IAR</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTBURO" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTBURO">WP:NOTBURO</a> might cover some common-sense cases, but wouldn't apply to a systematic effort. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Tamzin" title="User:Tamzin">Tamzin</a>[<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tamzin" title="User talk:Tamzin">cetacean needed</a>] (<a href="/wiki/User:Tamzin/%F0%9F%A4%B7" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Tamzin/🤷">they|xe|🤷</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Tamzin-20241202051900-Jlwoodwa-20241202045200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-141" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" class="oo-ui-buttonElement-button">Reply</a></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Agree with your essay! For the case where we already have a salted title and there is possible of salt evasion, I made a prototype template at {{<a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby/Salt_evasion" title="User:Chaotic Enby/Salt evasion">User:Chaotic Enby/Salt evasion</a>}} based on your wording (and the design of {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Salt" title="Template:Salt">Salt</a>}}), happy to hear any feedback on whether it should be implemented! (presumably, with a corresponding tracking category) <a href="/wiki/User:Chaotic_Enby" title="User:Chaotic Enby">Chaotic Enby</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chaotic_Enby" title="User talk:Chaotic Enby">talk</a> · <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chaotic_Enby" title="Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#c-Chaotic_Enby-20241203191600-Tamzin-20241201203300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:16, 3 December 2024 (UTC)</a><span id="ooui-php-142" class="ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-buttonElement oo-ui-buttonElement-frameless oo-ui-iconElement oo-ui-labelElement oo-ui-flaggedElement-progressive oo-ui-buttonWidget" data-ooui='{"_":"OO.ui.ButtonWidget","rel":["nofollow"],"framed":false,"icon":"share","label":"Reply","flags":["progressive"],"classes":["ext-discussiontools-init-replybutton"]}'><a role="button" tabindex="0" rel="nofollow" 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