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User:Robofish/Thoughts on inclusionism and deletionism - Wikipedia
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id="mw-content-subtitle"><div class="subpages">< <bdi dir="ltr"><a href="/wiki/User:Robofish" title="User:Robofish">User:Robofish</a></bdi></div></div> </div> <div id="bodyContent" class="content"> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><script>function mfTempOpenSection(id){var block=document.getElementById("mf-section-"+id);block.className+=" open-block";block.previousSibling.className+=" open-block";}</script><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><section class="mf-section-0" id="mf-section-0"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238436933">.mw-parser-output .ombox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #a2a9b1;background-color:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa);box-sizing:border-box;color:var(--color-base,#202122)}.mw-parser-output .ombox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .ombox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .ombox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .ombox-content{border:1px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .ombox-style{border:1px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .ombox-move{border:1px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .ombox-protection{border:2px solid #a2a9b1}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-invalid-type{text-align:center}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .ombox{margin:4px 10%}.mw-parser-output .ombox.mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;width:238px}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.ombox img{max-width:none!important}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .ombox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .ombox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}</style><table class="plainlinks ombox ombox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Essay.svg/30px-Essay.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="36" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Essay.svg/45px-Essay.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Essay.svg/60px-Essay.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="35" data-file-height="42"></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><div style="padding-top: 6px; padding-bottom: 5px;"><b>This is an <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Essays" title="Wikipedia:Essays">essay</a>.</b><br><div style="font-size: 90%;">It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines">Wikipedia's policies or guidelines</a>, as it has not been <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus#Levels_of_consensus" title="Wikipedia:Consensus">thoroughly vetted by the community</a>. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints.</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table> <p>Originally taken from <a href="/wiki/User_talk:FeydHuxtable/AfD_is_not_a_war_zone" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:FeydHuxtable/AfD is not a war zone">User talk:FeydHuxtable/AfD is not a war zone</a>. </p> </section><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 section-heading" onclick="mfTempOpenSection(1)"><span class="indicator mf-icon mf-icon-expand mf-icon--small"></span><h2 id="Thoughts_on_this_essay">Thoughts on this essay</h2><span class="mw-editsection"> <a role="button" href="/w/index.php?title=User:Robofish/Thoughts_on_inclusionism_and_deletionism&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Thoughts on this essay" class="cdx-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--icon-only cdx-button--weight-quiet "> <span class="minerva-icon minerva-icon--edit"></span> <span>edit</span> </a> </span> </div><section class="mf-section-1 collapsible-block" id="mf-section-1"> <p>This is a good essay, and should hopefully do something to cool down the hot tempers at AfD; but I worry that in a way, while trying to defuse the 'inclusionist-deletionist conflict', it is in its own way perpetuating it. While this essay states 'AfD is not a war zone', from the way it describes it, one gets the sense that AfD <i>is</i> a war zone, a neverending war between two diametrically opposing fronts. I admit it can feel that way at times, but I don't think it's helpful to think about things in this way. This is a bit of a truism, but part of the reason the 'battleground approach' to AfD persists is because so many people think it is one. </p><p>I think we need to move away from labels like 'inclusionist' and 'deletionist' entirely. Those descriptions don't help anyone; they give the impression of a conflict based on ideology, rather than evidence and reasoned argument. In my view, calling someone a 'deletionist' or 'inclusionist' (unless they have self-described as such) is a failure to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AGF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AGF">assume good faith</a>, as it implies they are arguing for their position for grand wikipolitical reasons rather than because of a careful consideration of the article in question. Of course, sometimes that <i>is</i> the case, but telling people so isn't likely to improve matters. </p><p>It's worth remembering that the vast majority of editors participating at AfD are not part of any formal 'inclusionist' or 'deletionist' groups, and probably can't be fitted into any simple category; any given editor will want to delete some articles and keep others, but exactly <i>which</i> articles differs from one editor to another, and very few indeed subscribe to a strict creed like 'all articles on fictional subjects <i>must</i> be deleted!' or 'all articles on real things <i>must</i> be kept!'. Most of us aren't part of any 'inclusionist-deletionist war', and have no wish to be. </p><p>AfD (and the other deletion discussion pages) should not be characterised as a war, but as a series of evidence-based discussions over what is best for the encyclopaedia. (That is always what is most important, and some editors would do well to keep it in mind.) If this view was more widely adopted, then surely the stress level at AfD would fall, and it would be a better editing environment for everyone. </p><p>In the meantime, editors who see themselves as inclusionists or deletionists - or worse, describe others as such - should take a good look at themselves, and ask: am I here to fight a war, or am I here to improve the encyclopaedia? <a href="/wiki/User:Robofish" title="User:Robofish">Robofish</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robofish" title="User talk:Robofish">talk</a>) 23:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>Hi, it was good to read your thoughts, interesting perspective. I started the essay as Id become aware of an RFC that had arisen out of the AfD conflict, where several were calling for a very excellent and veteran editor to be perma – banned! So youre right, a premise of the essay is that AfD is actually a war zone for some. Its aimed not at the moderate and neutral like your good self but at those who do see AfD as a kind of battle- in the hope that if both extremes could recognise that their counterparts have the good of the encyclopaedia in mind , in might reduce some hostility.</dd> <dd>I personally find the words inclusionists & deletionists useful descriptive terms- I think the hostility would still be there if we stopped using them, and might even be worse at it would be more formless. But thats just me. 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title="User:ViperSnake151/Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion (Human Readable Version)">User:ViperSnake151/Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion (Human Readable Version)</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Yunshui/Deletion_for_beginners" title="User:Yunshui/Deletion for beginners">User:Yunshui/Deletion for beginners</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr></tbody></table><div></div></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="navbox-list navbox-odd hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"></div><table class="nowraplinks mw-collapsible mw-collapsed navbox-subgroup" style="border-spacing:0"><tbody><tr><th scope="col" class="navbox-title" colspan="2"><div id="User_essays_on_dispute_resolution" style="font-size:114%;margin:0 4em"><a href="/wiki/Category:User_essays_on_dispute_resolution" title="Category:User essays on dispute resolution">User essays on dispute resolution</a></div></th></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="navbox-list navbox-odd" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/User:AGK/Arbitration_and_content" class="mw-redirect" title="User:AGK/Arbitration and content">User:AGK/Arbitration and content</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Alexia_Death/Community_Court_for_community_issues" title="User:Alexia Death/Community Court for community issues">User:Alexia Death/Community Court for community issues</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:ASCIIn2Bme/Verifiability_and_plagiarism_are_the_hammer_and_anvil_of_astute_wikilawyers" title="User:ASCIIn2Bme/Verifiability and plagiarism are the hammer and anvil of astute wikilawyers">User:ASCIIn2Bme/Verifiability and plagiarism are the hammer and anvil of astute wikilawyers</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:ASCIIn2Bme/What_%22no_consensus%22_really_means" title='User:ASCIIn2Bme/What "no consensus" really means'>User:ASCIIn2Bme/What "no consensus" really means</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:GTBacchus/A_recurring_problem" title="User:GTBacchus/A recurring problem">User:GTBacchus/A recurring problem</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Jnc/Astronomer_vs_Amateur" title="User:Jnc/Astronomer vs Amateur">User:Jnc/Astronomer vs Amateur</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Beeblebrox/The_perfect_policy_proposal" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Beeblebrox/The perfect policy proposal">User:Beeblebrox/The perfect policy proposal</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:SMcCandlish/Discretionary_sanctions_2013%E2%80%932018_review" title="User:SMcCandlish/Discretionary sanctions 2013–2018 review">User:SMcCandlish/Discretionary sanctions 2013–2018 review</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/One_against_many" title="User:Guy Macon/One against many">User:Guy Macon/One against many</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Orlady/Getting_your_way_at_Wikipedia" title="User:Orlady/Getting your way at Wikipedia">User:Orlady/Getting your way at Wikipedia</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Robert_McClenon/Crisis" title="User:Robert McClenon/Crisis">User:Robert McClenon/Crisis</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:RGloucester/Sanctions" title="User:RGloucester/Sanctions">User:RGloucester/Sanctions</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Skomorokh/First_rule" title="User:Skomorokh/First rule">User:Skomorokh/First rule</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:The_Bushranger/Lob_a_grenade_and_run_away" title="User:The Bushranger/Lob a grenade and run away">User:The Bushranger/Lob a grenade and run away</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Unblockables" title="Wikipedia:Unblockables">Wikipedia:Unblockables</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:AGK/AE_improvements" class="mw-redirect" title="User:AGK/AE improvements">User:AGK/AE improvements</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Vincentvikram/Always_keep_context_in_mind_when_arguing_claims" title="User:Vincentvikram/Always keep context in mind when arguing claims">User:Vincentvikram/Always keep context in mind when arguing claims</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr></tbody></table><div></div></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="navbox-list navbox-odd hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"></div><table class="nowraplinks mw-collapsible mw-collapsed navbox-subgroup" style="border-spacing:0"><tbody><tr><th scope="col" class="navbox-title" colspan="2"><div id="User_essays_on_notability" style="font-size:114%;margin:0 4em"><a href="/wiki/Category:User_essays_on_notability" title="Category:User essays on notability">User essays on notability</a></div></th></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="navbox-list navbox-odd" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/User:HowardBGolden/Abuse_of_the_General_Notability_Guideline_in_Deletion_Discussions" title="User:HowardBGolden/Abuse of the General Notability Guideline in Deletion Discussions">User:HowardBGolden/Abuse of the General Notability Guideline in Deletion Discussions</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Philtweir/Academic_communities_articles_and_notability" title="User:Philtweir/Academic communities articles and notability">User:Philtweir/Academic communities articles and notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Robert_McClenon/Acceptance_of_Biographies" title="User:Robert McClenon/Acceptance of Biographies">User:Robert McClenon/Acceptance of Biographies</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Alex_Noble/AFC_is_about_notability" title="User:Alex Noble/AFC is about notability">User:Alex Noble/AFC is about notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Masem/Alternate_Take_on_Notability" title="User:Masem/Alternate Take on Notability">User:Masem/Alternate Take on Notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Chrislk02/anarticleaboutaschoolthatcantfindagermanteacherisnotnotable" title="User:Chrislk02/anarticleaboutaschoolthatcantfindagermanteacherisnotnotable">User:Chrislk02/anarticleaboutaschoolthatcantfindagermanteacherisnotnotable</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:ReaderofthePack/Author_notability" title="User:ReaderofthePack/Author notability">User:ReaderofthePack/Author notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Gryllida/BiographyNotability" title="User:Gryllida/BiographyNotability">User:Gryllida/BiographyNotability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Czarkoff/essays/Businesses_are_rarely_notable" title="User:Czarkoff/essays/Businesses are rarely notable">User:Czarkoff/essays/Businesses are rarely notable</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Northamerica1000/Churnalism" title="User:Northamerica1000/Churnalism">User:Northamerica1000/Churnalism</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:ReaderofthePack/Common_notability_arguments" title="User:ReaderofthePack/Common notability arguments">User:ReaderofthePack/Common notability arguments</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Lagrange613/Coverage_is_not_notability" title="User:Lagrange613/Coverage is not notability">User:Lagrange613/Coverage is not notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Bahamut0013/deletion" title="User:Bahamut0013/deletion">User:Bahamut0013/deletion</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_assume_lasting_significance_for_crime_articles" title="Wikipedia:Don't assume lasting significance for crime articles">Wikipedia:Don't assume lasting significance for crime articles</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_assume_lasting_significance_for_instances_of_self-harm" title="Wikipedia:Don't assume lasting significance for instances of self-harm">Wikipedia:Don't assume lasting significance for instances of self-harm</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:MalwareSmarts/Don%27t_confuse_non-notability_with_a_hoax" title="User:MalwareSmarts/Don't confuse non-notability with a hoax">User:MalwareSmarts/Don't confuse non-notability with a hoax</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Basket_of_Puppies/Editorials" title="User:Basket of Puppies/Editorials">User:Basket of Puppies/Editorials</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Anon126/Explaining_notability_to_newcomers" title="User:Anon126/Explaining notability to newcomers">User:Anon126/Explaining notability to newcomers</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:AliveFreeHappy/Notability_(firearms)" title="User:AliveFreeHappy/Notability (firearms)">User:AliveFreeHappy/Notability (firearms)</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:League_Octopus/Club_notability_tables_(and_test)" title="User:League Octopus/Club notability tables (and test)">User:League Octopus/Club notability tables (and test)</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:ArsenalFan700/Indian_Football_Notability" title="User:ArsenalFan700/Indian Football Notability">User:ArsenalFan700/Indian Football Notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Phil_Sandifer/History_of_notability" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Phil Sandifer/History of notability">User:Phil Sandifer/History of notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Mike_Cline/Imagining_a_new_way_to_look_at_the_question_of_Notability" title="User:Mike Cline/Imagining a new way to look at the question of Notability">User:Mike Cline/Imagining a new way to look at the question of Notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Davidwr/Inherent_Notability_as_a_slang_term" title="User:Davidwr/Inherent Notability as a slang term">User:Davidwr/Inherent Notability as a slang term</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Robert_McClenon/Internet_celebrities" title="User:Robert McClenon/Internet celebrities">User:Robert McClenon/Internet celebrities</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Joe_Decker/IsThisNotable" title="User:Joe Decker/IsThisNotable">User:Joe Decker/IsThisNotable</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Trackinfo/sandbox/NHSL" title="User:Trackinfo/sandbox/NHSL">User:Trackinfo/sandbox/NHSL</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Brainy_J/No_Exceptions_to_Notability" title="User:Brainy J/No Exceptions to Notability">User:Brainy J/No Exceptions to Notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Davidwr/No_topic_deserves_to_be_in_Wikipedia" title="User:Davidwr/No topic deserves to be in Wikipedia">User:Davidwr/No topic deserves to be in Wikipedia</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Esquivalience/Notability" title="User:Esquivalience/Notability">User:Esquivalience/Notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Glades12/Notability_is_temporary" title="User:Glades12/Notability is temporary">User:Glades12/Notability is temporary</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Herostratus/%22Notable_people%22_sections" title='User:Herostratus/"Notable people" sections'>User:Herostratus/"Notable people" sections</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Uncle_G/On_notability" title="User:Uncle G/On notability">User:Uncle G/On notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:PorkchopGMX/Popularity_doesn%E2%80%99t_always_equal_notability" class="mw-redirect" title="User:PorkchopGMX/Popularity doesn’t always equal notability">User:PorkchopGMX/Popularity doesn’t always equal notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:RoySmith/essays/Presumption_of_Notability" title="User:RoySmith/essays/Presumption of Notability">User:RoySmith/essays/Presumption of Notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Geo_Swan/Evaluating_notability_for_lesser_prizes_and_awards" title="User:Geo Swan/Evaluating notability for lesser prizes and awards">User:Geo Swan/Evaluating notability for lesser prizes and awards</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:RoySmith/Three_best_sources" title="User:RoySmith/Three best sources">User:RoySmith/Three best sources</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Esquivalience/Essay_on_notability" title="User:Esquivalience/Essay on notability">User:Esquivalience/Essay on notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Fleets/RLN" title="User:Fleets/RLN">User:Fleets/RLN</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Fleets/sandboxWPRL_notability" title="User:Fleets/sandboxWPRL notability">User:Fleets/sandboxWPRL notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Moray_An_Par/b" title="User:Moray An Par/b">User:Moray An Par/b</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:ReaderofthePack/YouTube_notability" title="User:ReaderofthePack/YouTube notability">User:ReaderofthePack/YouTube notability</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Seraphimblade/sandbox2/3" title="User:Seraphimblade/sandbox2/3">User:Seraphimblade/sandbox2/3</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:MichaelQSchmidt/The_general_notability_guide_versus_subject-specific_notability_guidelines" title="User:MichaelQSchmidt/The general notability guide versus subject-specific notability guidelines">User:MichaelQSchmidt/The general notability guide versus subject-specific notability guidelines</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Voorts/The_spectrum_of_coverage" title="User:Voorts/The spectrum of coverage">User:voorts/The spectrum of coverage</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr></tbody></table><div></div></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="navbox-list navbox-odd hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"></div><table class="nowraplinks mw-collapsible mw-collapsed navbox-subgroup" style="border-spacing:0"><tbody><tr><th scope="col" class="navbox-title" colspan="2"><div id="Humorous_essays" style="font-size:114%;margin:0 4em">Humorous essays</div></th></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="navbox-list navbox-odd" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/User:Ilovejames5/Assume_the_assumption_of_the_assumption_of_the_assumption_of_the_assumption_of_bad_faith" title="User:Ilovejames5/Assume the assumption of the assumption of the assumption of the assumption of bad faith">Assume the assumption of the assumption of the assumption of the assumption of bad faith</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ilovejames5/Avoid_headings" title="User:Ilovejames5/Avoid headings">Avoid headings</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien/Letters_from_the_editors" title="User:Thebiguglyalien/Letters from the editors">Letters from the editors</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/User:Ilovejames5/Nomination_of_Wikipedia_for_speedy_deletion" title="User:Ilovejames5/Nomination of Wikipedia for speedy deletion">Nomination of Wikipedia for speedy deletion</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr></tbody></table><div></div></td></tr><tr><td class="navbox-abovebelow" colspan="2"><div>Note: The <a href="/wiki/Category:User_essays" title="Category:User essays">User essays</a> category page has many more, listed below the subcategories section on the pages.</div></td></tr></tbody></table></div> <!-- NewPP limit report Parsed by mw‐web.codfw.main‐6df7948d6c‐prv2v Cached time: 20241127145937 Cache expiry: 2592000 Reduced expiry: false Complications: [] CPU time usage: 0.187 seconds Real time usage: 0.230 seconds Preprocessor visited node count: 218/1000000 Post‐expand include size: 39299/2097152 bytes Template argument size: 282/2097152 bytes Highest expansion depth: 9/100 Expensive parser function count: 0/500 Unstrip recursion depth: 0/20 Unstrip post‐expand size: 10092/5000000 bytes Lua time usage: 0.110/10.000 seconds Lua memory usage: 1479130/52428800 bytes Number of Wikibase entities loaded: 0/400 --> <!-- Transclusion expansion time report (%,ms,calls,template) 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