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href="#Qubad_Talabani_page_is_just_copy-pasted_from_his_own_website,_and_is_hence_severely_violating_npov"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 4 Qubad Talabani page is just copy-pasted from his own website, and is hence severely violating npov </div> </a> 3 comments <ul id="toc-Qubad_Talabani_page_is_just_copy-pasted_from_his_own_website,_and_is_hence_severely_violating_npov-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Claus_Spreckels:_Accusations_of_slave_ownership" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Claus_Spreckels:_Accusations_of_slave_ownership"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 5 Claus Spreckels: Accusations of slave ownership </div> </a> 30 comments <button aria-controls="toc-Claus_Spreckels:_Accusations_of_slave_ownership-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> Toggle Claus Spreckels: Accusations of slave ownership subsection </button> <ul 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vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Yasuke_samurai_status"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 8 Yasuke samurai status </div> </a> 6 comments <ul id="toc-Yasuke_samurai_status-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Lumi_(currency)" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Lumi_(currency)"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 9 Lumi (currency) </div> </a> 9 comments <ul id="toc-Lumi_(currency)-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-At_all_times" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#At_all_times"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 10 At all times </div> </a> 2 comments <ul id="toc-At_all_times-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Trump_bankruptcy" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" 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cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> Toggle Slavery as a positive good in the United States subsection </button> <ul id="toc-Slavery_as_a_positive_good_in_the_United_States-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-original_author" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#original_author"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 18.1 original author </div> </a> <ul id="toc-original_author-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Regarding_Reversion_of_Other_Scholarly_Perspectives_on_Safi-ad-Din_Ardabili’s_Lineage" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Regarding_Reversion_of_Other_Scholarly_Perspectives_on_Safi-ad-Din_Ardabili’s_Lineage"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> 19 Regarding Reversion of Other Scholarly Perspectives on Safi-ad-Din Ardabili’s Lineage </div> </a> 2 comments <ul 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style="font-size:114%;margin:0 4em"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Noticeboards" title="Wikipedia:Noticeboards">Noticeboards</a></div></th></tr><tr><td class="navbox-abovebelow" colspan="2" style="{{{groupstyle}}}"><div>Wikipedia's centralized <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Request_directory" title="Wikipedia:Request directory">discussion, request, and help venues</a>. 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title="Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard">Fringe theories</a></li> <li><a class="mw-selflink selflink">Neutral point of view</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard">Original research</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Pending_changes" title="Wikipedia talk:Pending changes">Pending changes</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard">Reliable sources</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request">Resource requests</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SVG_help" title="Wikipedia:SVG help">Scalable vector graphics</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam">Spam</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist" title="MediaWiki 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discussion">Templates</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Files_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Files for discussion">Files</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion" title="Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion">Miscellany</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion" title="Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion">Undeletion</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr><tr><th scope="row" class="navbox-group" style="width:1%">User conduct</th><td class="navbox-list-with-group navbox-list navbox-even hlist" style="width:100%;padding:0"><div style="padding:0 0.25em"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard" title="Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard">Conflict of interest</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contributor_copyright_investigations" title="Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations">Contributor copyright</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring" title="Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring">Edit warring and 3RR</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Sanctions" title="Wikipedia:Sanctions">Sanctions</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Editing_restrictions" title="Wikipedia:Editing restrictions">Personal restrictions</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:General_sanctions" title="Wikipedia:General sanctions">General sanctions</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contentious_topics" title="Wikipedia:Contentious topics">Contentious topics</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations" title="Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations">Sockpuppets</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Usernames_for_administrator_attention" title="Wikipedia:Usernames for administrator attention">Usernames</a> (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/User_names" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User names">Requests for comment</a>)</li> <li><a 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filter/Requested">Requested</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_filter/False_positives" title="Wikipedia:Edit filter/False positives">False positives</a></li></ul></li> <li>Questions <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk" title="Wikipedia:Help desk">Help desk</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse" title="Wikipedia:Teahouse">Teahouse</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk" title="Wikipedia:Reference desk">Reference desk</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk">New articles</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/All" title="Wikipedia:Requests for comment/All">Requests for comment</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump" title="Wikipedia:Village pump">Village pump</a> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)">Policy</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)">Technical</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)">Proposals</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)">Idea lab</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(WMF)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF)">WMF</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)">Miscellaneous</a></li></ul></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals">WikiProject proposals</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Discussions_for_discussion" title="Wikipedia:Discussions for discussion">Discussions for discussion</a></li></ul> </div></td></tr><tr><td class="navbox-abovebelow" colspan="2" style="{{{groupstyle}}}"><div> <a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_noticeboards" title="Category:Wikipedia noticeboards">Category:Wikipedia noticeboards</a></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1214005174">body.skin-vector-2022 .mw-parser-output .skip-to-toc,body.skin-timeless .mw-parser-output .skip-to-bottom,.mw-parser-output .skip-to-bottom-timeless{display:none}body.skin-timeless .mw-parser-output .skip-to-bottom-timeless{display:inline}</style> <ul></ul> <table style="background:transparent; width:100%; margin: 2px 0; border:1px solid #FFDFAE; background-color: #F0F8FF; padding:4px;"> <tbody><tr> <th colspan="3" style="text-align:center; padding:2px 2px 2px 10px; font-size:150%; background:#FFD092;">Welcome — ask about adherence to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">neutral point of view</a> in context! </th></tr> <tr> <td colspan="3"> <table width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td> <table width="100%" style="margin-bottom:5px; background:#F5FAFF; border:2px solid #FFD092; padding:10px;"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom:none; padding:2px 2px 2px 10px; font-size:110%;"> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1252059228">.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxplain{float:right;margin:0 0 0 1em;border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);background-color:var(--background-color-base,#fff);padding:0.3em 0.6em 0.2em 0.6em;text-align:center;font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxleft{float:left;margin:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutlist{display:inline-block;border-bottom:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);margin-bottom:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutboxplain ul{font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .module-shortcutanchordiv{position:relative;top:-3em}.mw-parser-output li .module-shortcutanchordiv{float:right}.mw-parser-output .mbox-imageright .module-shortcutboxplain{padding:0.4em 1em 0.4em 1em;line-height:1.3;margin:0}</style><div class="module-shortcutanchordiv"></div><div class="module-shortcutboxplain noprint" role="note"><div class="module-shortcutlist"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Shortcut" title="Wikipedia:Shortcut">Shortcuts</a></div><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1126788409">.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul{line-height:inherit;list-style:none;margin:0;padding:0}.mw-parser-output .plainlist ol li,.mw-parser-output .plainlist ul li{margin-bottom:0}</style><div class="plainlist"><ul><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:NPOVN&redirect=no">WP:NPOVN</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:NPOV/N&redirect=no">WP:NPOV/N</a></li><li><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:RFN&redirect=no">WP:RFN</a></li></ul></div></div>Before posting here, consult the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">neutral point of view policy page</a> and the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/FAQ">FAQ explainer</a>. Also, make sure to discuss the disagreement at the article's talk page. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FRINGE">Fringe theories</a> often involve questions about neutral point of view. These should be discussed <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FTN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FTN">at the dedicated noticeboard</a>. You must notify any editor who is the subject of a discussion. You may use <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:NPOVN-notice" title="Template:NPOVN-notice">subst:NPOVN-notice</a>}}</code> to do so. <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238436933">.mw-parser-output .ombox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #a2a9b1;background-color:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa);box-sizing:border-box;color:var(--color-base,#202122)}.mw-parser-output .ombox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .ombox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .ombox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .ombox-content{border:1px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .ombox-style{border:1px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .ombox-move{border:1px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .ombox-protection{border:2px solid #a2a9b1}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .ombox .mbox-invalid-type{text-align:center}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .ombox{margin:4px 10%}.mw-parser-output .ombox.mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;width:238px}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.ombox img{max-width:none!important}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .ombox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .ombox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}</style><table class="plainlinks ombox ombox-notice" role="presentation" style="width=750px;"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td><td class="mbox-text"><div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-inputbox-input mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard" name="prefix"/> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search the noticeboard archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> <div style="text-align: center;" class="nomobile"> Sections older than 21 days <a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">archived</a> by <a href="/wiki/User:Lowercase_sigmabot_III" title="User:Lowercase sigmabot III">Lowercase sigmabot III</a>. List of archives <div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed">, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_1" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_2" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 2">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_3" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 3">3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_4" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 4">4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_5" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 5">5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_6" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 6">6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_7" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 7">7</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_8" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 8">8</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_9" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 9">9</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_10" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 10">10</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_11" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 11">11</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_12" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 12">12</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_13" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 13">13</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_14" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 14">14</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_15" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 15">15</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_16" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 16">16</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_17" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 17">17</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_18" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 18">18</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_19" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 19">19</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_20" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 20">20</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_21" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 21">21</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_22" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 22">22</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_23" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 23">23</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_24" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 24">24</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_25" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 25">25</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_26" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 26">26</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_27" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 27">27</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_28" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 28">28</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_29" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 29">29</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_30" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 30">30</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_31" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 31">31</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_32" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 32">32</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_33" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 33">33</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_34" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 34">34</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_35" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 35">35</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_36" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 36">36</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_37" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 37">37</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_38" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 38">38</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_39" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 39">39</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_40" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 40">40</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_41" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 41">41</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_42" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 42">42</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_43" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 43">43</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_44" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 44">44</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_45" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 45">45</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_46" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 46">46</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_47" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 47">47</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_48" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 48">48</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_49" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 49">49</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_50" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 50">50</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_51" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 51">51</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_52" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 52">52</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_53" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 53">53</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_54" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 54">54</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_55" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 55">55</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_56" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 56">56</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_57" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 57">57</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_58" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 58">58</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_59" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 59">59</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_60" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 60">60</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_61" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 61">61</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_62" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 62">62</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_63" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 63">63</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_64" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 64">64</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_65" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 65">65</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_66" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 66">66</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_67" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 67">67</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_68" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 68">68</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_69" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 69">69</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_70" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 70">70</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_71" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 71">71</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_72" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 72">72</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_73" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 73">73</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_74" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 74">74</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_75" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 75">75</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_76" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 76">76</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_77" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 77">77</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_78" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 78">78</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_79" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 79">79</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_80" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 80">80</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_81" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 81">81</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_82" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 82">82</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_83" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 83">83</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_84" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 84">84</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_85" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 85">85</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_86" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 86">86</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_87" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 87">87</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_88" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 88">88</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_89" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 89">89</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_90" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 90">90</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_91" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 91">91</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_92" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 92">92</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_93" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 93">93</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_94" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 94">94</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_95" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 95">95</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_96" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 96">96</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_97" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 97">97</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_98" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 98">98</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_99" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 99">99</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_100" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 100">100</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_101" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 101">101</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_102" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 102">102</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_103" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 103">103</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_104" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 104">104</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_105" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 105">105</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_106" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 106">106</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_107" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 107">107</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_108" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 108">108</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_109" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 109">109</a> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_110" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 110">110</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_111" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 111">111</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_112" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 112">112</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_113" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 113">113</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_114" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 114">114</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_115" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 115">115</a></div> </div></td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr> <tr> <td colspan="3">Additional notes: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus" title="Wikipedia:Consensus">Consensus</a> is assessed based on the weight of policy-based arguments, not on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:!VOTE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:!VOTE">vote count</a> or sheer size of argument.</li> <li>Consensus in previous discussions does not make <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:POLICY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:POLICY">policy</a>, but you can generally rely on it.</li> <li>The list of articles where users flagged a point-of-view concern <a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_neutral_point_of_view_disputes" title="Category:Wikipedia neutral point of view disputes">is here</a>.</li> <li>This page is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTFORUM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTFORUM">not a forum</a> for discussions unrelated to the neutral point of view. We have a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NORN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NORN">separate noticeboard</a> for concerns about <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">original research</a> (material made up by a Wikipedia editor), and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RSN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RSN">another dedicated noticeboard</a> for questions about <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">contextual reliability of a source</a>.</li></ul> </td></tr> <tr> <td align="center" style="padding:3px 0 0 0;"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=new">Start a new discussion</a> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="2024_United_States_presidential_election" data-mw-thread-id="h-2024_United_States_presidential_election-20250108214600">2024 United States presidential election</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: 2024 United States presidential election">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> Multiple editors have raised concerns over NPOV on <a href="/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election" title="2024 United States presidential election">2024 United States presidential election</a> I will list here some of there concerns and WP policy related to them. <ol><li>Trump is talked about way more then Harris to the point that almost only he about him. My suggestion here is to add more about Harris or remove/shorten some of things about Trump. The article also is having size issues so this would help fix those.</li> <li>The article does not follow <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch">WP:WORDS</a> when talking about Trump. As it often says Trump claimed... which needs to corrected to follow <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch">WP:WORDS</a>.</li> <li>It hardly every talks about the election from a Republican view point. Which per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">WP:NPOV</a> should be included as it is at least a large minority view point.</li></ol> This is not a complete list of things that have been discussed on <a href="/wiki/Talk:2024_United_States_presidential_election" title="Talk:2024 United States presidential election">talk:2024 United States presidential election</a>. At this current point there has been an attempt to put a notice on the article about NPOV issues, but has been reverted. There have been multiple discussions about NPOV on its talk page over the last few months. So since it kept coming up and did not appear to be getting resolved I decided to bring it here. Thank you for taking the time to look at this. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250108214600-2024_United_States_presidential_election" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>On point 3, you are arguing for an equal balance which is not what NPOV says. We look to present a neutral point of view based on what reliable sources say, and the largest problem is that most sources that would report on the Republican view are not reliable (eg sites like Fox News). We don't create a false balance if the support isn't there in RSes. — <a href="/wiki/User:Masem" title="User:Masem">Masem</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Masem" title="User talk:Masem">t</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Masem-20250108220500-Sheriff_U3-20250108214600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Another factor… over the last few years, Trump dominated the news (either to extol his virtues or condemn his flaws, depending on the outlet)… the simple fact is that the Media didn’t discuss Harris to the extent that they discussed Trump. This imbalance in coverage by the media impacts our own coverage. <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Blueboar-20250108221900-Masem-20250108220500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:19, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Harris was only a candidate from July 2024 on, Trump declared his candidacy in November 2022. – <a href="/wiki/User:Muboshgu" title="User:Muboshgu">Muboshgu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Muboshgu#top" title="User talk:Muboshgu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Muboshgu-20250108223000-Blueboar-20250108221900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Masem" title="User:Masem">Masem</a> Let me quote what <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">WP:NPOV</a> says:</dd> <dd>"Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views. For example, the article on the Earth does not directly mention modern support for the flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct (and minuscule) minority; to do so would give undue weight to it."</dd> <dd>Also see <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Writing_for_the_opponent" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/FAQ">Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Writing_for_the_opponent</a> as it talks more about this.</dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> Correct but there is almost nothing on Harris, just read the article and you will see what I mean. So we may have to do more digging then with Trump.</dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Muboshgu" title="User:Muboshgu">Muboshgu</a> Can you describe your comment more? <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250108223500-Blueboar-20250108221900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Much digital ink was spilled on Trump's candidacy starting in November 2022. Then it was "Biden vs. Trump" until Biden dropped out. Of course the media talked less about Harris' candidacy, and trying to even out the page between Trump and Harris would be a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FALSEBALANCE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FALSEBALANCE">WP:FALSEBALANCE</a>. – <a href="/wiki/User:Muboshgu" title="User:Muboshgu">Muboshgu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Muboshgu#top" title="User talk:Muboshgu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Muboshgu-20250108224000-Sheriff_U3-20250108223500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:40, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Ok I see what you mean there, and agree with you on that point. The main issue that I saw was on Point 2, as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch">WP:WORDS</a> clearly states that such words should avoided/not used. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250109163400-Muboshgu-20250108224000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>That being said, I do think the page needs some rewriting. Some things, like January 6 and Trump's criminal trials, ended up not mattering nearly as much as our page gives them weight. – <a href="/wiki/User:Muboshgu" title="User:Muboshgu">Muboshgu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Muboshgu#top" title="User talk:Muboshgu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Muboshgu-20250108224100-Sheriff_U3-20250108223500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Key in what you quoted is "in reliable sources". The bulk of sourcing for the GOP viewpoint on the election cones from unreliable sources. Hence we already have our hands tied. Yes, we should try to include what RSes did say, but per Due, the weight of coverage is based on the predominance of viewpoints as published in RSes. Anything else is creating a false balance. — <a href="/wiki/User:Masem" title="User:Masem">Masem</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Masem" title="User talk:Masem">t</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Masem-20250108224500-Sheriff_U3-20250108223500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>There is much misinformation online, even from reliable sources. We don’t have to rely completely on news articles, we can rely on other things like statistics and other reliable sources. Much of the news is heavily biased one way or another, and at least I believe that neutrality is more important than perfect balance. <a href="/wiki/User:LessHuman" title="User:LessHuman">LessHuman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LessHuman" title="User talk:LessHuman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-LessHuman-20250110164400-Masem-20250108224500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:44, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Not sources need to be neutral and not just reliable. You could then say that CNN isn’t a viable source either like Fox News. Most of the sources used, whether reliable or not, are highly biased, mostly to Kamala Harris / Joe Biden. <a href="/wiki/User:LessHuman" title="User:LessHuman">LessHuman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LessHuman" title="User talk:LessHuman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-LessHuman-20250110164000-Masem-20250108220500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>It usually takes a few years before American politics articles are no longer <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Civil_POV_pushing" title="Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing">closely watched</a> by people who want to show how awful the other side is (whether they be <a href="/wiki/Trumpist" class="mw-redirect" title="Trumpist">Trumpist</a> trolls or <a href="/wiki/The_Resistance_(American_political_movement)" title="The Resistance (American political movement)">#Resistance</a> trolls). And it's around then that we get <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien/Avoid_contemporary_sources" title="User:Thebiguglyalien/Avoid contemporary sources">proper retrospective sourcing</a> which can then be used to indicate balance. I agree that someone should go through and fix any WTW issues, but besides that I don't have much hope that it's going to give a proper overview of the topic any time soon and don't see a point in maintenance tags if there isn't an identifiable, fixable issue. <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Thebiguglyalien-20250109010000-Sheriff_U3-20250108214600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>I agree with <a href="/wiki/User:Muboshgu" title="User:Muboshgu">Muboshgu</a>'s comment above - the article currently contains a lot of information about things that didn't end up being as important as they're made out to be. I do think that it's fair for the article to talk about Trump more often, simply by nature of there being more to say about him, and it's also fine to give fair weight to his enduring controversies in the context of their impact on the election.</dd> <dd>I'm in favor of adding the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOVD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOVD">WP:NPOVD</a> template to the article because 1) the issue has been brought up multiple times and continues to be brought up, and 2) as long as editors are engaged in a discussion regarding the disputed neutrality of the article, like we are right now, there should be a notification stating that fact on the article - which would also help encourage other editors to offer their input.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a> I almost entirely agree with you here but I'm genuinely curious - is there some sort of unspoken "time limit" for how long a NPOVD tag should be on an article? I feel like I've seen them stay up for a pretty long time before but I could be wrong. To be honest it was one of the things that originally got me interested in editing, after seeing the notification at the top of a page and starting to go down the talk page rabbit hole. <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250109030500-Sheriff_U3-20250108214600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Generally they're supposed to stay up while discussion takes place, but in practice they can hang around longer. On a wider point, this sort of article I would expect to always have some sort of balance or weight issue. That is, an article that was an upcoming or current event turning into a past event. It has the issues of being written while in the news, which means a lot of coverage of perhaps minor or trivial points, combined with being shortly in the past which means being reformatted into a new style while maintaining all these hangovers from the upcoming/current event style. As TBUA says, it takes awhile for things to settle down source-wise. <a href="/wiki/User:Chipmunkdavis" title="User:Chipmunkdavis">CMD</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chipmunkdavis" title="User talk:Chipmunkdavis">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Chipmunkdavis-20250109033500-Big_Thumpus-20250109030500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>My thought process isn't that there should be an "end time" for the tags so much as a "start time". Right now, the tag can't be meaningfully resolved. So there's no real upside to including it, but there is the downside of people arguing about the tag. Of course, if there's an active discussion on the article's talk page about an actionable proposal, then it would be good to add the most applicable tag linking people to the discussion. <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Thebiguglyalien-20250110175000-Big_Thumpus-20250109030500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>NPOV doesnt mean equal balance. It means fair balance to both parties, according to reliable sources. The article is pretty neutral with that <a href="/wiki/User:EarthDude" title="User:EarthDude">EarthDude</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EarthDude" title="User talk:EarthDude">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-EarthDude-20250109045700-Sheriff_U3-20250108214600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>As one of the largest contributors on this page, there have been frequent claims of bias going back for months now. All discussions that were raised resulted in consensus that the concerns had been addressed or were rejected on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FALSEBALANCE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FALSEBALANCE">false balance</a> grounds. Concerns raised by individuals largely failed to address specific changes they would like to be made, instead making broad generalizations about bias without much discussion on the reliable sources used. Several of those alleging bias are repeat users who make a new talk page post rehashing prior points after a few weeks. Recent comments on the page include several broad generalizations and declarations that "this is a biased and unencyclopedic article" and that "a Democrat partisan wrote it" without providing much detailed discussion on specific examples or sources that are used. <a href="/wiki/User:BootsED" title="User:BootsED">BootsED</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BootsED" title="User talk:BootsED">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-BootsED-20250110015300-Sheriff_U3-20250108214600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:53, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Thank you for all the work you did in contributing to the page. With respect, I don't think that we should be surprised that the talk page discussion hasn't gone into much specific detail - the talk page discussion is about whether or not the NPOVD template should be added to the article, in order to formally begin the discussion on neutralizing aspects of the article. The template was placed but then removed 15 minutes later by one of the editors involved in the discussion.</dd> <dd>If the neutrality of the article has come into question multiple times, the neutrality is disputed by definition. As far as I'm aware, the NPOVD template hasn't ever been on the page, and the entire point of the template is to encourage further discussion. Who knows, maybe nothing changes once a discussion is had - but we can't know until that happens. <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250110023100-BootsED-20250110015300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:31, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>The discussion has already happened several times and has been resolved. The same user starting the same discussion over and over does not qualify as a serious dispute of neutrality. <a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Prcc27" title="User talk:Prcc27">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Prcc27-20250110025000-Big_Thumpus-20250110023100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>If the issue was actually resolved as you say it is, there would not be an equal number of editors in favor of and against adding the NPOVD template. If the article was truly neutral, there would not be people showing up every few days trying to discuss it. This would be open-and-shut, otherwise. <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250110030400-Prcc27-20250110025000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>My understanding is that this whole discussion over whether to include a NPOV tag is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DRIVEBY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DRIVEBY">WP:DRIVEBY</a>. The reasons raised for adding a tag have been discussed multiple times in the past and dismissed. I'm not really seeing any specifics of what people have an issue with and providing specific examples of what they think fail NPOV. All discussion is in broad, vague terms about the page being biased and some arguments that have been repeatedly dismissed as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FALSEBALANCE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FALSEBALANCE">false balance</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:BootsED" title="User:BootsED">BootsED</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BootsED" title="User talk:BootsED">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-BootsED-20250110033000-Big_Thumpus-20250110030400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>The !votes are equal due to canvassing, to say the least. There is no consensus for a dispute tag. <a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Prcc27" title="User talk:Prcc27">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Prcc27-20250110040100-Big_Thumpus-20250110030400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:01, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a>, you have accused others of canvassing, sockpuppetry, SPA, bludgeoning and disruptive editing in almost every single post throughout this discussion. Some might say that this is legitimately disruptive and uncivil. If you're really concerned about canvassing or one of the other offenses, take it to ANI. But otherwise, please stop trying to shut the discussion down. <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250110130200-Prcc27-20250110040100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I won't accuse anyone of canvassing, but I was very surprised that curtesy pings that were sent out by a user who I know is aware of me due to our several interactions and disagreements on the talk page in the past failed to include me in their pings to re-debate neutrality on the page. <a href="/wiki/User:BootsED" title="User:BootsED">BootsED</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BootsED" title="User talk:BootsED">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-BootsED-20250110131700-Big_Thumpus-20250110130200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>In fairness to that user, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Goodtiming8871#c-Goodtiming8871-20250110114100-Prcc27-20250110041800" title="User talk:Goodtiming8871">they seem to be occupied in their personal life and have committed to broadening the scope of future pings</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250110132300-BootsED-20250110131700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:23, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>In fairness, that user admits their pings were limited. So they basically admitted to violating <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CANVASS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CANVASS">WP:CANVASS</a>, even if unintentional. I would say the “accusation” was warranted. <a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Prcc27" title="User talk:Prcc27">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Prcc27-20250110192000-Big_Thumpus-20250110132300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> I am sorry, but this is the first discussion I have started. And I am mostly concerned with the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch">WP:WORDS</a> issue. You also have <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest" title="Wikipedia:Conflict of interest">COI</a> on this topic as you are a democratic official that ran for election. You also have commented multiple times on other discussions about how you strongly feel against this tag. You also have made many claims of other users for things like sockpuppetry, canvassing, and much more. And at this point there is no need for you to keep trying to make your point.</dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:BootsED" title="User:BootsED">BootsED</a> Are you saying that the WP:WORDS issue is not a problem? Cause I don't see how it can be any clearer. Here is some text examples:</dd> <dd>"Trump made false claims of voter fraud in the 2020 presidential election, and continued denying the election results."</dd> <dd>"In the lead up to the 2024 election, the Republican Party made false claims of massive "noncitizen voting" by immigrants in an attempt to delegitimize the election in the event of a Trump defeat. The claims were made as part of larger Republican Party efforts to disrupt the 2024 election and election denial movement. Trump continued spreading his "big lie" of a stolen election and predicted without evidence that the 2024 election would be rigged against him. Trump also falsely accused Biden of "weaponizing" the Justice Department to target him in relation to his criminal trials. Trump and several Republicans stated they would not accept the results of the 2024 election if they believe they are "unfair"."</dd> <dd>"Trump's previous comments suggesting he can "terminate" the Constitution to reverse his election loss, his claim that he would only be a dictator on "day one" of his presidency and not after,"</dd> <dd>"Trump and many Republicans have made numerous false and misleading statements regarding Trump's criminal trials, including false claims that they are "rigged" or "election interference" orchestrated by Biden and the Democratic Party, of which there is no evidence." Here I would like to note that the last section of this sentence sounds like an opinion.</dd> <dd>I could list more if you wish, but it appears to me that this is does not comply with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch">WP:WORDS</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250110235400-Prcc27-20250110025000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>There's some clunky phrasing in the four examples you've listed -- and the second one in particular (where I recommend cutting the phrase "big lie," true as it may be, because of its loaded connotations) -- but they are accurate in their essentials and generally cite to reputable sources. To take just the first example, Donald Trump did say many times from November 2020 until at least November 2024 that he would have won the 2020 election if not for voter fraud. He went to court repeatedly to make that case in 2020 and lost every time, so it is correct to characterize his statements as false. And it is significant, i.e., worth mentioning in an article on the 2024 election, that one of the candidates was repeatedly making false claims about his previous election. But perhaps you could suggest an alternate way of writing that sentence that, in your view, comports with Wikipedia's guidance on unbiased language? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250111013700-Sheriff_U3-20250110235400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Here is how I would word them: <ol><li>Trump stated there was voter fraud in the 2020 presidential election, and that election results were incorrect. (Please keep in mind that this is saying what Trump said and does not mean that he is correct.)</li> <li>In the lead up to the 2024 election, the Republican Party said there were massive "noncitizen voting" by immigrants. Trump continued stating that the election would be stolen and that the 2024 election would be rigged against him. Trump also accused Biden of "weaponizing" the Justice Department to target him in relation to he criminal trials. Trump and several Republicans stated they would not except the results of the 2024 election if they believe they are unfair.</li> <li>Trump's comments suggested he can "terminate" the Constitution to reverse his election loss, he stated he would be a dictator on "day one" of his presidency and not after,</li> <li>Trump and many Republicans have made numerous statements regarding Trump's criminal trials, including statements that they were "rigged" or "election interference" orchestrated by Biden and the Democratic Party.</li></ol></dd> <dd>There is some room for other ways for wording it too, as I used a less aggressive tone towards Trump then some people may think I should have. The parts in (...) are not to be included they are just a note for this discussion. The main issue I see with how it is worded currently is that it sounds like a biased statement against him and not a neutral perspective, which is what WP is trying to do. In which I understand there are many sources that use a very aggressive tone towards Trump. I am not against saying bad things about Trump I just think that we need to tone down the article in it's current form, to comply with WP policies. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250111052000-NME_Frigate-20250111013700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Thanks for these suggestions. Nos. 1, 2, and 4 are all of a kind:</dd> <dd>1. If Donald Trump said during the 2024 campaign that the world was flat, should it be noted in this article that was he said was incorrect?</dd> <dd>2. If the Republican Party said the sun revolved around the earth and Donald Trump said that Antarctica was located in the northern hemisphere, should it be noted in this article that was they said was incorrect?</dd> <dd>4. If Republicans had said that forest fires were being started by Jewish space lasers, should it be noted in this article that what they said was incorrect?</dd> <dd>What Donald Trump and some of his supporters actually said were every bit as incorrect as my examples and should be treated the same way that Wikipedia would treat any such statements. If that means not using accurate descriptors like "false," so be it. But then let's all be clear-headed about giving up the truth.</dd> <dd>Turning to no. 3: this one is a bit tricky. You've taken two phrases and turned them into a (run-on) sentence, but you've omitted the point of the original sentence. Here is the full original sentence, with my emphasis to show what it's actually about:</dd> <dd>Trump's previous comments suggesting he can "terminate" the Constitution to reverse his election loss, his claim that he would only be a dictator on "day one" of his presidency and not after, his promise to use the Justice Department to go after his political enemies, his plan to use the Insurrection Act of 1807 to deploy the military for law enforcement in primarily Democratic cities and states, attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election, continued Republican efforts to restrict voting following the 2020 presidential election, Trump's baseless predictions of voter fraud in the 2024 election, and Trump's public embrace and celebration of the January 6 United States Capitol attack, raised concerns over the state of democracy in the United States.</dd> <dd>In other words, the sentence consists of a list of eight statements and actions that Donald Trump (and some Republicans) made and took, which collectively suggested to some notable observers (per their comments during the election) that Trump intends to take the U.S. in the direction of Russia or Syria, which are (were) democracies in name only: there are elections, but the incumbent (until December in Syria) always wins by a ridiculous margin that no one believes is real. Those commentators may have been wrong to interpret Trump's statements that way, but this alarm over how Trump seemed (to many) to be intending to change the U.S. was a major campaign theme.</dd> <dd>And that list (and as far as I can tell, the whole article) doesn't even mention (1) that Trump and his allies suggested in 2024 that if he won, he ought to be able to run again in 2028 -- regardless of the 22nd Amendment -- because he was supposedly "cheated" out of the 2020 election and (2) that Trump said that his supporters, if they voted for him in 2024, need never vote again. These examples would further strengthen the impression of a not insignificant segment of the public that Trump hopes to bring democracy to an end. (Whether he really intended to make that impression is unknowable. Whether he means to follow up on those apparent plans, and whether is capable of doing so, remains to be seen.)</dd> <dd>My big problem with that paragraph-long sentence is this phrase: "his claim that he would only be a dictator on 'day one' of his presidency and not after". This would more aptly read "his claim that he would temporarily act as a dictator".</dd> <dd>Here's what the editors are up against: there have long been a collection of norms within U.S. politics -- and generally agreed-upon framework of acceptable behavior -- that Donald Trump completely breaks. Almost all politicians lie a little bit. By contrast, Trump tells the truth a little bit. If that's the new normal, Wikipedia isn't really built for it.</dd> <dd>So for example, Trump's comment about temporarily becoming a U.S. dictator was made when Sean Hannity, a television news host who is very friendly toward Trump, was trying to give Trump the opportunity to rebut what Hannity thought was a ridiculous claim being made about Trump by some Democrats: that Trump wanted to be a dictator. Hannity expected Trump to say something like, "Of course not. That's an example of how out of touch with reality Democrats are, that they would suggest I wanted to be a dictator." It was a softball question. The answer Hannity expected was the answer that every single Democrat or Republican presidential candidate would have given. Instead, Trump said he did intend (temporarily) to be a dictator.</dd> <dd>That's not normal. Your proposed language suggests that this article should be written as if it is normal. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250112071400-Sheriff_U3-20250111052000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:14, 12 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Where in the world (pun intended) did you hear this? (Quoted from above comment by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a>) "And that list (and as far as I can tell, the whole article) doesn't even mention (1) that Trump and his allies suggested in 2024 that if he won, he ought to be able to run again in 2028 -- regardless of the 22nd Amendment -- because he was supposedly "cheated" out of the 2020 election and (2) that Trump said that his supporters, if they voted for him in 2024, need never vote again. These examples would further strengthen the impression of a not insignificant segment of the public that Trump hopes to bring democracy to an end. (Whether he really intended to make that impression is unknowable. Whether he means to follow up on those apparent plans, and whether is capable of doing so, remains to be seen.)"</dd> <dd>Ok so my version is quite soft on Trump. I am ok if someone rewrites it with a more aggressive tone, as long as WP rules are followed. The issue I saw was with the use of the word "claims" since WP:WORDS clearly states that it should be avoided quite heavily. I sadly can't write an article well, I am much better at fixing spelling and grammar.</dd> <dd>I understand the issue we have, Trump is very different from any other president that we know, and so people and WP don't know how to respond. At the same time though we should not sound like a newspaper article. With the current way it is written it looks and sounds like something I would read in a anti-Trump newspaper, which needs to be corrected. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250112083000-NME_Frigate-20250112071400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:30, 12 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Regarding Donald Trump having suggested several times over the past four years that he might run for a third term, here's the headline and subheadline of just one article, published in November by the New York Times:</dd> <dd>"No, Trump Cannot Run for Re-election Again in 2028. The Constitution sets a two-term limit for presidents. Still, Donald J. Trump has repeatedly floated the idea that he might like to stay in the White House beyond his next term."</dd> <dd>link: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/18/us/politics/trump-third-term-2028-constitution.html">https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/18/us/politics/trump-third-term-2028-constitution.html</a></dd> <dd>There are multiple other sources confirming what he said about this over the years. I follow the news a fair bit and heard him say these things at the time he said them.</dd> <dd>Regarding Donald Trump suggesting on one occasion that his supporters would never need to vote again if they voted for him in 2024, here's a quick summary with links to original reporting and evidence that his comment got a lot of attention from alarmed observers:</dd> <dd>link: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/vote-four-years/">https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/vote-four-years/</a></dd> <dd>What did he mean by that comment? As noted at the link, he was asked by Laura Ingraham in a subsequent Fox News interview to clarify, and he responded with this: "So with respect to like a statement like I made that statement is very simple. I said, vote for me. You're not going to have to do it ever again. It's true, because we have to get the vote out. Christians are not known as a big voting group. They don't vote, and I'm explaining that to them: You never vote — this time, vote. I'll straighten out the country. You won't have to vote anymore. I won't need your vote. You can go back."</dd> <dd>That's very hard to interpret. If Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden or Kamala Harris had said during one of their presidential campaigns that, say, union members who voted for them would never need to vote again because "I'll straighten the country out," conservatives would be making similar inferences. Because what can a president do that can never be undone by a later president or Congress? Nothing, unless there are no later presidents or Congresses.</dd> <dd>And then Ingraham, who supports Trump, clearly recognized the risk of his comment being interpreted as she would interpret a similar comment from a Democrat, because she followed up with Trump, noting that his statement about never voting again is "being interpreted, as you are not surprised to hear, by the left as, 'Well, they're never going to have another election."' So, can you even just respond?"</dd> <dd>Once again, a Fox host was giving Trump a softball opportunity to clarify his point and mock critics who were alarmed by what he said. Any other Republican would have said, "Of course we'll have another election in 2028. It's crazy the Democrats would suggest otherwise."</dd> <dd>But Trump didn't say that. He didn't address that point at all. He just reiterated his first answer.</dd> <dd>So there you have it: the man who will be president in eight days would not confirm, not even to a very friendly interviewer, that there will be an election in 2028. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250112211100-Sheriff_U3-20250112083000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I actually think what he's getting at with the "won't have to vote anymore" comment is pretty clear, which is that he's asking what he sees as a traditionally non-voting group to come out in force for a particular election in order to ensure that a party which supports their viewpoints is elected - and then they [that specific group, previously referred to] "won't need to vote anymore" since, when in power, he will "straighten the country out" and enact enduring policy that reflects those viewpoints. <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250112235400-NME_Frigate-20250112211100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>If it were that clear, then (1) a friendly Fox News interviewer wouldn't twice have asked him to clarify and (2) he would have responded to her straightforward question with a clear answer. If Laura Ingraham (on this point) and Sean Hannity (on the "dictator" point) think a Republican presidential candidate has gone too far and needs to clean up his statements, that's newsworthy. And this comment was even more alarming (and much discussed at the time!) when considered in the context of the previous item I mentioned: his repeated references to being eligible for a third term.</dd> <dd>We really must stop pretending any of this is normal. Here are two further examples of how much this Wikipedia article on the 2024 election is bending over backward to be generous to Donald Trump:</dd> <dd>1. A *lot* of people thought there was one very obvious reason that Trump ran for a second term. It was brought up repeatedly in the media. Here's one example from the BBC: "Is Trump Running for Office Mostly to Avoid Prison?" (link: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66402180">https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66402180</a>)</dd> <dd>Here's another example: Congressman Will Hurd, a Republican from Texas, said in 2023 that Trump was "running for president to stay out of prison." (link: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://thehill.com/homenews/4222638-hurd-trump-only-running-to-stay-out-of-prison/">https://thehill.com/homenews/4222638-hurd-trump-only-running-to-stay-out-of-prison/</a>).</dd> <dd>Yet nowhere does this article mention that.</dd> <dd>2. As Joe Biden's advanced age became a major issue during the campaign (a subject which is discussed in this article), quite a few people pointed out that Trump, should he win in 2024, would be even older upon taking office than Biden was in 2021. Nikki Haley had raised this concern about both Trump and Biden during her presidential campaign. And that concern about Trump predated the campaign: Elon Musk had tweeted in 2022 that Trump would be too old at the end of a second term. Again, there is absolutely no reference to those concerns in this article. (There is one passing reference to the simple fact that Trump will be the oldest man ever to take the oath, but nothing about why prominent people thought that might be an issue.) <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250113033100-Big_Thumpus-20250112235400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>According to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">WP:NPOV</a> "Articles should not take sides, but should explain sides fairly and without editorial bias. This applies to both what you say and how you say it." It is a the top of the page. Also WP:NPOV policy has to be followed no matter what, even if consensus states other wise. Also <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Writing_for_the_opponent" title="Wikipedia:Writing for the opponent">WP:ENEMY</a> states that "Editors must present both sides of any <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Controversy" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Controversy">controversy</a>. To leave out one side amounts to promoting the other side's point of view." <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250113193400-NME_Frigate-20250113033100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>These two points I've mentioned were widely discussed leading up to and during the campaign. As I've noted, a prominent member of Donald Trump's own party said that Trump was running for office in order to make himself immune from criminal prosecution. But at the moment, neither side of that issue (or the issue of Trump's advanced age, which, again, was cited by a prominent member of his own party and by the man who is now one of Trump's top associates) is presented in this article.</dd> <dd>Omission is a kind of bias too. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250114023200-Sheriff_U3-20250113193400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>And now, not weeks later, one Republican member of Congress has introduced a Constitutional amendment that would allow Donald Trump to run for a third term: the very idea that Trump previously floated. It's not going to happen (just look at the history of the Equal Rights Amendment), and the Congressman perhaps has personal reasons for doing this (look it up), but it emphasizes that there were reasons to take the "dictator" talk seriously. Also the article notes something I missed before: Trump said *after* the election that he might want to run again in 2028.</dd> <dd>source: <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5104133-rep-andy-ogles-proposes-trump-third-term-amendment/">Tennessee Republican proposes amendment to allow Trump to serve third term</a> <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250124010200-Sheriff_U3-20250112083000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:02, 24 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Yeah except someone isn't a "dictator" if they're democratically elected. I agree that the proposed amendment has little chance of passing, but even if it did, that would in no way make Donald Trump a "dictator". <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250124182300-NME_Frigate-20250124010200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:23, 24 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Hitler was democratically elected. Then he made himself a dictator. – <a href="/wiki/User:Muboshgu" title="User:Muboshgu">Muboshgu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Muboshgu#top" title="User talk:Muboshgu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Muboshgu-20250124223800-Big_Thumpus-20250124182300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:38, 24 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Vladimir Putin and Bashar Assad won many "elections," and by large margins. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250125063700-Big_Thumpus-20250124182300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:37, 25 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> But that is with only one party, the US has two (not counting the smaller ones). <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">Sheriff U3</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Con</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250125070000-NME_Frigate-20250125063700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:00, 25 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>There were four parties in the election that Vladimir Putin won last year. There were two parties on the ballot in Syria's most recent election, won by Bashar al-Assad in 2021. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250126045700-Sheriff_U3-20250125070000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:57, 26 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Ok I stand corrected, I did not know that there were "four" parties. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">Sheriff U3</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Con</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250128000600-NME_Frigate-20250126045700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:06, 28 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>He would still be a president and would have to elected again. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">Sheriff U3</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Con</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250124223500-NME_Frigate-20250124010200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:35, 24 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>I am sure many users are registered with a political party, and ergo, affiliated with a party one way or another. I happen to have been elected to a local leadership role (I haven’t even taken office yet), but I do not anticipate being involved in federal politics. I think it’s pathetic to insinuate I oppose the template because of my party affiliation. Many users, including myself, took the neutrality concerns very seriously, and I even made a suggestion on how we could potentially improve the lead. However, we do not tolerate disruptive editing on Wikipedia, and that is why I take great issue with the template. Not because of my political affiliation, but because the consensus was already decided, whether we like it or not. FWIW, I was actually accused of being biased in favor of a Republicans in 2020 when I advocated for waiting to color Georgia blue until all major media organizations made a unanimous projection. I guess that’s the thanks I get for being a productive user that strives to edit neutrally. <a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Prcc27" title="User talk:Prcc27">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Prcc27-20250111015400-Sheriff_U3-20250110235400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>I will say again that it only makes sense to put the NPOVD template on the page if we're this far into a thread about the disputed neutrality of the language of the page. If we're getting into specific language that needs to be changed, the template should be on the page. It doesn't make sense to not do it at this point. <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250112235700-Sheriff_U3-20250108214600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:57, 12 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>No. If that were the case, the template would be on the article indefinitely. We shouldn’t have a badge of shame, every time a user (and the same user(s) at that) has a neutrality concern. <a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Prcc27" title="User talk:Prcc27">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Prcc27-20250113163600-Big_Thumpus-20250112235700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I have to side with <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> on this one. <a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> WP policy makes it clear that template should be on the page. Also WP:NPOV states in the lead that the policy is not non-negotiable and can not be superseded by consensus. So any "consensus" that you claim was established before has no power then or now. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250113180300-Prcc27-20250113163600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:03, 13 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Where in WP Policy does it say that the template is a "badge of shame"? It is to help with correcting NPOV issues. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250113193800-Prcc27-20250113163600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>The article is neutral, so nothing is being superseded. <a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Prcc27" title="User talk:Prcc27">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Prcc27-20250113213000-Sheriff_U3-20250113193800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Then why are there WP:WORDS violations & multiple NPOV discussions? Oh wait you say it is neutral so it is? You don't determine whether that article is neutral or not. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250113215800-Prcc27-20250113213000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>There are multiple NPOV discussions, because the same person keeps starting new discussions on the matter. <a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Prcc27" title="User talk:Prcc27">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Prcc27-20250114060600-Sheriff_U3-20250113215800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>At this point I'm getting a bit of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IDHT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IDHT">WP:IDHT</a>. It's okay for you to personally disagree with other points of view; it's not okay to just continuously insinuate that this entire discussion is pointless and that other editors are somehow in the wrong for attempting to abide by clear policies in an attempt to make the encyclopedia more neutral. <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250113221000-Prcc27-20250113213000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Impressive that a new user such as yourself would be familiar with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:IDHT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:IDHT">WP:IDHT</a>. This whole discussion could have been avoided if Goodtiming would have taken a hint. Accusing me of disruptive editing seems like projection. <a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Prcc27" title="User talk:Prcc27">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Prcc27-20250114061100-Big_Thumpus-20250113221000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> I am not so sure, you do seem disruptive and should cease and desist. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250114065500-Prcc27-20250114061100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I would be more than happy to “cease and desist” (whatever that means). I think now would be a great time to end the discussion, and refocus our attention to more pressing issues. <a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Prcc27" title="User talk:Prcc27">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Prcc27-20250114191300-Sheriff_U3-20250114065500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>He also describes on his user page that he has not been able to log into his account. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250114065700-Prcc27-20250114061100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I can log in, it's all good - I just wanted to document the attempts to get into my account somewhere public. Just in case someone is successful in hijacking my account and my posts suddenly get strange. <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250114132200-Sheriff_U3-20250114065700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Some users can't help that they are new. When WP was started I was not born even, so I can't claim to have 12 years of experience. But it is nice when people don't try to make it seem that you don't know anything just because you are new (though advice is usually welcomed, if treated as though one knows at least something). <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250114070400-Prcc27-20250114061100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>You have been engaging behaviour that could be classified as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BITE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BITE">biting</a> towards @<a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> since the start of the debate about stuff any competent editor is expected to know week one. @<a href="/wiki/User:Goodtiming8871" title="User:Goodtiming8871">Goodtiming8871</a> has departed the debate for quite a bit now. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fantastic_Mr._Fox" title="User talk:Fantastic Mr. Fox">Fantastic Mr. Fox</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20250114073000-Prcc27-20250114061100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I am currently participating in the sedition and treason case of <a href="/wiki/Impeachment_of_Yoon_Suk_Yeol" title="Impeachment of Yoon Suk Yeol">Yoon Suk Yeol</a>, who attempted to put the Republic of Korea at risk of war, and has been impeached by the National Assembly, so it is difficult for me to participate in this topic. <a href="/wiki/User:Goodtiming8871" title="User:Goodtiming8871">Goodtiming8871</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Goodtiming8871" title="User talk:Goodtiming8871">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Goodtiming8871-20250114121700-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20250114073000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Googtiming8871, you created a section on a talk page to start a discussion, then left it shortly afterwards, eventually leading to another noticeboard discussion. Please be more careful in the future when starting contentious discussions. --<a href="/wiki/User:Super_Goku_V" title="User:Super Goku V">Super Goku V</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Super_Goku_V" title="User talk:Super Goku V">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Super_Goku_V-20250115110900-Goodtiming8871-20250114121700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>I hope this wasn’t directed at me. I complimented Big Thumpus on getting a firm grasp on policy so soon. <a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Prcc27" title="User talk:Prcc27">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Prcc27-20250114191600-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20250114073000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Sorry I thought it was not, I should have assumed good faith. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250114214100-Prcc27-20250114191600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">Sheriff U3</a> and <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a>: Regarding the confusion with the words "Badge of Shame", it refers to maintenance templates placed on articles without attempting to resolve the issue or to leave it there for a longer period of time than necessary. <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=0&ns1=1&ns3=1&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns7=1&ns9=1&ns10=1&ns11=1&ns13=1&ns15=1&ns101=1&ns119=1&ns127=1&ns711=1&ns829=1&search=%22badge+of+shame%22+maintenance+template">This search shows the connection between the phrase and discussion of the templates.</a> I included the Template namespace as some templates like <a href="/wiki/Template:Multiple_issues#General_notes" title="Template:Multiple issues">Template:Multiple issues</a> directly mention not using these as a Badge of Shame. --<a href="/wiki/User:Super_Goku_V" title="User:Super Goku V">Super Goku V</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Super_Goku_V" title="User talk:Super Goku V">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Super_Goku_V-20250115112400-Sheriff_U3-20250113193800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Great, so it makes sense that we should not call it a "Badge of Shame" since we've been engaged in an attempt to resolve the issue for two weeks.</dd> <dd>On the other hand, it makes absolutely zero sense that the template isn't on the page right now. We are literally doing exactly what the template requires. <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250115135600-Super_Goku_V-20250115112400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:56, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>The only issue I see discussed is if we want to include a template or not instead of a discussion as to what changes are suggested. Regardless of that, now you know what the meaning is by some users of the phrase "Badge of Shame" regarding a number of the maintenance templates. --<a href="/wiki/User:Super_Goku_V" title="User:Super Goku V">Super Goku V</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Super_Goku_V" title="User talk:Super Goku V">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Super_Goku_V-20250116015600-Big_Thumpus-20250115135600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Ok thanks for stating this, I did not know there was a reference. But we are in a current neutrality discussion. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250115170100-Super_Goku_V-20250115112400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:01, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>If "neutrality discussion" refers to a discussion on the NPoV noticeboard, then yes. I am replying to your own quote along with letting another user know what it means. --<a href="/wiki/User:Super_Goku_V" title="User:Super Goku V">Super Goku V</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Super_Goku_V" title="User talk:Super Goku V">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Super_Goku_V-20250116015300-Sheriff_U3-20250115170100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>I will note that some of the apparent bias is a combination of NOTNEWS and RECENTISM problems that plague many current event articles for the last ten years on WP. When the media put a story under a microscope, writing article after article for days and days about it, that the s to lead to editors to try to incorporate every twist a d turn that comes from that reporting, the clear evidence being oroseline-style writing that simply try to document an event on a time line rather than a cohesive narrative. Because editors are put every detail in, it can give the impression of bias towards the default left leaning media. Add that edits as a whole love to point out faults of any person or group that has engaged in wrongdoing (regardless of any actual court finding), this approach allows editors to pile on every bit of negative coverage about a topic because they are only following what RSes have said. We need stronger adherence to getting event articles away from writing in this newspaper style and instead try to write towards a broader narrative approach that makes sense of how the topic likely will be covered far down the road, in the same manner if we were writing about a past event from scratch just now. That way, we can eliminate some of the apparent bias caused by the highly focused media and how that propagate to WP. — <a href="/wiki/User:Masem" title="User:Masem">Masem</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Masem" title="User talk:Masem">t</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Masem-20250114145600-Sheriff_U3-20250108214600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Well said! I think you hit the nail on the head with that one. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250114175700-Masem-20250114145600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>We've already had this discussion so many times on the article itself, and common consensus has been that the article is neutral and fair. Having the same discussion time and time again, with the same results is tiring. Can we just close this? <a href="/wiki/User:EarthDude" title="User:EarthDude">EarthDude</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EarthDude" title="User talk:EarthDude">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-EarthDude-20250116160000-Sheriff_U3-20250108214600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I think <a class="mw-selflink-fragment" href="#c-Cambalachero-20250114221400-2024_United_States_presidential_election">this comment</a> is a good reply to what you've mentioned <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250116164400-EarthDude-20250116160000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Just noting here that the original thread about adding the NPOVD template has now been archived. I believe a majority of the replying editors supported adding the template. I don't think it makes any sense to have this thread open and not add the template. <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250120134200-Sheriff_U3-20250108214600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>It probably should have been restored then if it got archived too early. It has been over a week, but I guess if it is restored than that would be fine. I just wish there were more text suggestions to consider than a battle over the template. --<a href="/wiki/User:Super_Goku_V" title="User:Super Goku V">Super Goku V</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Super_Goku_V" title="User talk:Super Goku V">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Super_Goku_V-20250128212800-Big_Thumpus-20250120134200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:28, 28 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl> I won't repeat every here, but I advise people to look over my comments at <a href="/wiki/Talk:2024_United_States_presidential_election" title="Talk:2024 United States presidential election">Talk:2024 United States presidential election</a> for a more detailed understanding on my position on the neutrality of the article. The TLDR of my view is is that sources do exist that aren't being used. Some people are claiming using them is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:FALSEBALANCE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:FALSEBALANCE">WP:FALSEBALANCE</a> but this ignores the context that Trump's entire campaign hinges on media attention. Plus, there is a just a tad of emotive language thrown in. Case and Point: <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">Trump called on House and Senate Republicans to kill the bill arguing it would hurt his and Republican's reelection campaigns and deny them the ability to run on immigration as a campaign issue.</q> This ignores all the other points brought up in the referenced sources, but okay. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Harris was tasked by Biden with protecting democracy through voting rights legislation through her work on the For the People Act.</q> I would call this <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PUFFERY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PUFFERY">WP:PUFFERY</a>. I struggle to find how Harris was important with creating the bill other than voting for the bill. The article never mentions any criticisms of Harris either, to my knowledge. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fantastic_Mr._Fox" title="User talk:Fantastic Mr. Fox">Fantastic Mr. Fox</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20250110175700-2024_United_States_presidential_election" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:57, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>A couple more examples:</dd> <dd>- The lead states that <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">The Trump campaign was noted for... engaging in anti-immigrant fear mongering</q> even though the next paragraph mentions that illegal immigration was one of the biggest issues for Americans during the election.</dd> <dd>- <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Numerous election offices are dealing with an increase in retirements and are overwhelmed with public records requests, owing in part to the electoral mistrust planted by former President Trump's loss in the 2020 election</q> Aside from being in an odd tense that reads like a news article, the two sources cited in order to associate Trump with the overwhelmed election offices actually spend more time detailing the lack of appropriate funding and increasing work requirements for election workers. One source is even from 2022.</dd> <dd>The article is full of stuff like this. Stuff that may have seemed meaningful in the lead up to the election, but after Trump's win feels more like sour grapes and mudslinging. I think it's entirely possible for an encyclopedia to inform readers of Trump's flaws without bloating out the article about the election. <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250110183800-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20250110175700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>My advice… give it time. The election is still fairly recent, and so dispassionate analysis has not yet occurred. Currently, all we have to go on is what is said in the news media, which tends towards hype and exaggerated things that end up not being important. However, as time passes, historians will write about it - and they will sort out which events were important and which were not. Once that occurs, we can (and should) completely rewrite the article. We can cut the fluff and hype of recent news media, and instead focus on what historians have to say. <a href="/wiki/User:Blueboar" title="User:Blueboar">Blueboar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blueboar" title="User talk:Blueboar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Blueboar-20250110191100-Big_Thumpus-20250110183800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>It's nice to see some specific examples. Regarding the third example: can't it be true both that immigration was a major concern of voters and that Donald Trump's specific comments about immigrants trafficked in fear? Here are two well-known examples from 2024: (1) Trump claimed without evidence that Haitian immigrants living in Springfield, Ohio were eating people's cats and dogs. (2) Trump said that immigrants were "poisoning the blood of our country." I cannot recall similar comments about immigrants from any major party presidential nominee (except Trump himself in 2016) over the past 50 years. Both comments seemed beyond the pale to many people, which is why they were the subject of so much media attention, and thus worthy of one sentence mentioning them in the lead. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250110223700-Big_Thumpus-20250110183800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:37, 10 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>These statements are only made with the consensus of reliable sources. We have numerous reliable sources that say as such, which is why we say it. Due to the exceptional nature of some of the statements, we have dozens of citations in ref bundles to back them up. It is not biased to say that Trump's claims of election fraud are false or without evidence, and this is not an opinion. Again, it's all backed up with multiple reliable sources. You also say that the statements ignore the other sources, but what sources? <a href="/wiki/User:BootsED" title="User:BootsED">BootsED</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BootsED" title="User talk:BootsED">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-BootsED-20250111034100-Big_Thumpus-20250110183800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:41, 11 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">These statements are only made with the consensus of reliable sources.</q></li> <li>Answer: Aside from the fact I am able to find <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS">WP:SYNTHESIS</a> statements and statements that look very oddly phrased to not mention of what the sources also says, just because a certain collection of sources say that someone is secretly the devil themself doesn't translate to us calling that person the devil as a fact, since that is defamatory and also completely bogus. The same logic can be applied to Trump. It may deserve a mention, but as mentioned by others above right now the phrasing of the statements looks like mudslinging.</li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">It is not biased to say that Trump's claims of election fraud are false or without evidence, and this is not an opinion</q></li> <li>Answer:Correct but it is worth mentioning and it's widely accepted by sources that such claims are false, not "passing mentions in the context of a article that says other things on the subject too" or <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS">WP:SYNTHESIS</a></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">You also say that the statements ignore the other sources, but what sources?</q></li> <li>Answer: I'm not sure what you refering to here. If you are referring to my first quotation, exactly one source attached reads "kill the bill" while the others mention it as a side reason for Trump opposing the bill and focuses on several different reasons for the bill being opposed by Trump and the Republican Party.</li></ul></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fantastic_Mr._Fox" title="User talk:Fantastic Mr. Fox">Fantastic Mr. Fox</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20250111095900-BootsED-20250111034100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:59, 11 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I think there's something to what you're saying. Some of the writing in this article is shallow and insufficiently sourced, and it's that aspect, more than anything else, which gives it a sense of being biased against Donald Trump. A better article, as this one will probably become with the benefit of time, would probably present an even darker view of Trump but would feel more "balanced" because it would be deeper and better sourced. And I think the reason the article reads as it does is that, since by necessity editing had to be restricted lest the trolls wreck it, there was just too much to keep up with, especially in the face of the enormous amount of misinformation being pushed (mostly but not only by Trump and his supporters).</dd> <dd>Take this phrase from the "Border security and immigration" section, whence comes the "kill the bill" comment that you flag: "Polling showed that most Americans want to reduce immigration".</dd> <dd>This is true, but what that sentence and indeed that whole section omits is that the percentage of the American public who wanted increased immigration had been climbing slowly from less than 10% in the early 1990s -- when 65% of Americans wanted less immigration -- to above 30% in the late 2010s. In 2019, for the first time since polling on this issue started in the 1960s, that number (34%) was higher than the percentage of Americans who wanted decreased immigration (28%). The Biden-Harris administration, although taking a hard line on immigration in some ways (Harris famously told would-be immigrants "Don't come" in June of 2021), didn't prioritize action to tighten immigration because they thought the public wanted looser immigration. But then public opinion shifted very rapidly. It had taken 26 years of changing opinion for Americans to prefer "more immigration" to "less immigration," but in just four years, almost that entire transformation in opinion was undone: by 2023, "more immigration" had fallen to 16% and "less immigration" had climbed to 55%. That's when Democrats and Republicans began negotiating the bill that was put forward in Feb. 2024, which would have been the toughest immigration bill in many decades. If the Biden/Harris administration had recognized the changing public mood sooner, that bill probably would have been introduced earlier, and maybe Trump wouldn't have blocked it.</dd> <dd>Now obviously this article can't include all of that -- it probably can't even include the name "Lankford" -- and the top of that section does include links to articles specifically about U.S. immigration policy generally and the 2023 immigration "crisis" specifically -- but that one sentence about polling paints such a tiny picture of the truth, and maybe there's a way to get this nuance in. I suggest this:</dd> <dd>"Polling, in a reversion to levels before 2019, showed that most Americans want to reduce immigration."</dd> <dd>(And of course lately we have seen one of Trump's best-known associates, Elon Musk, say that he wants more foreign nationals in the U.S., much to the consternation of some of Trump's other associates, like Steve Bannon, who has lately described Musk as "a truly evil guy," vowed that he "will have Elon Musk run out of here," and called for Musk to "go back to South Africa." Musk seems to be fairly influential: will American views shift again?)</dd> <dd>A quick note about a different sentence in that section: "In 2023 and early 2024, a surge of migrants entering through the border with Mexico occurred." That's awkward. Make it: "In 2023 and early 2024, a surge of migrants entered though the border with Mexico." <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250112080400-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20250111095900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:04, 12 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>One note to make is that people in the US are upset about illegal-immigrants not the legal ones. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250112083500-NME_Frigate-20250112080400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Actually, the survey I mentioned asks about all immigrants not just illegal immigrants: "Thinking now about immigrants -- that is, people who come from other countries to live here in the United States, in your view, should immigration be kept at its present level, increased or decreased?"</dd> <dd>At present, 41% (16% + 25%) want immigration increased or kept at present levels, and 55% want immigration decreased.</dd> <dd>link: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://news.gallup.com/poll/1660/immigration.aspx">https://news.gallup.com/poll/1660/immigration.aspx</a></dd> <dd>And the controversy between Elon Musk and Steve Bannon that I just referenced was also about foreign nationals who are or would be legally in the U.S. (on H-1B visas).</dd> <dd>Now it's possible that people responding to the survey are answering based on their opinions regarding illegal immigrants and not all immigrants. And also, people are not always consistent in how they respond to polls: they don't think about all the implications of their answers. The same poll also finds that 64% of Americans think that immigration is a "good thing" while 32% think it's a "bad thing," that 47% favor and 51% oppose "deporting all immigrants who are living in the United States illegally back to their home country," that 53% favor and 46% oppose "significantly expanding the construction of walls along the U.S.-Mexico border," that 70% favor and 30% oppose "allowing immigrants living in the U.S. illegally the chance to become U.S. citizens if they meet certain requirements over a period of time," that 76% favor and 23% oppose "hiring significantly more border patrol agents" (funding for that was in the bipartisan bill that Congress blocked at Donald Trump's request), that 81% favor and 19% oppose "allowing immigrants, who were brought to the U.S. illegally as children, the chance to become U.S. citizens if they meet certain requirements over a period of time," and that 63% favor and 32% oppose "allowing the president and secretary of Homeland Security to temporarily prohibit individuals from seeking asylum when the Southwest border is overwhelmed" (that also was in the bill that Trump killed).</dd> <dd>People are complicated! As you can see, some of these findings contradict one another.</dd> <dd>For example, 47% support deporting all immigrants who are here illegally.</dd> <dd>But 70% support allowing illegal immigrants the change to become U.S. citizens and 81% support allowing the Dreamers (who are illegal immigrants, albeit not by their own choice) that opportunity.</dd> <dd>Which suggests that some poll respondents think there are different kinds of illegal immigrants, some who should be deported and some who should get the chance to become citizens. Maybe some of them don't want farm workers deported, even if they're here illegally, because they fear that U.S. crops won't get picked. (That actually happened in California this week when immigration agents starting arresting migrants near a grape orchard, following which that orchard found itself 75% short of the number of people it needed to pick the grapes.) <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250112213600-Sheriff_U3-20250112083500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:36, 12 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>This is quite interesting, did not know they had made a poll on this topic. Thank you for posting it! <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250112222600-NME_Frigate-20250112213600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>First off looking at emotive language you've mentioned, kill the bill is a common way of saying to get rid of a bill. For protecting democracy while it is loaded language and we very much could improve on the wording I think it is an apt description of protecting voter rights and doesn't really seem like Puffery to me. Also for the anti immigration fear mongering, the sources says he did that so we say he did that. Also @<a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> I don't think we should necessarily change articles' descriptions of things simply because of who won the election. <a href="/wiki/User:Akechi_The_Agent_Of_Chaos" title="User:Akechi The Agent Of Chaos">Akechi The Agent Of Chaos</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Akechi_The_Agent_Of_Chaos" title="User talk:Akechi The Agent Of Chaos">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Akechi_The_Agent_Of_Chaos-20250112020400-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20250110175700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:04, 12 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>"kill the bill" seems a bit aggressive to my knowledge. As for the "protecting democracy" bit, the statement itself isn't puffery, but Kamela Harris being involved in drafting it is misleading, since it was being worked on primarily by people other than Harris (based on what I read the Wikipedia page for the For The People Act). <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fantastic_Mr._Fox" title="User talk:Fantastic Mr. Fox">Fantastic Mr. Fox</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20250112093200-Akechi_The_Agent_Of_Chaos-20250112020400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:32, 12 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>"Kill the bill" & "killing a bill" are both well known and used terms in US politics. What them mean is you or someone else wants to stop the bill before it passes. There are many ways to "kill a bill". If you are in congress you can vote against it and try to convince others to vote against it, if you are the vice-president then you can "kill it" if there is a tie in the Senate. The President can veto the bill when he receives it which also "kills the bill". I think that should be a good overview of what "kill the bill" and related terms mean in US politics. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250112101000-Fantastic_Mr._Fox-20250112093200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:10, 12 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I incline toward not using the phrase "kill the bill" in this instance unless it can be shown that Donald Trump or a prominent ally actually used that language themselves as regards the bipartisan immigration bill that was negotiated for months between Democrats and Republicans only to wither on the vine after Trump opposed it.</dd> <dd>That said, "kill the bill" is indeed commonly used. For example, last month, Elon Musk urged Congress to "kill the bill" in reference to a bill that was to have funded the government. After Donald Trump supported Musk's request, that particular bill, which had been negotiated by House Republicans and Democrats, was indeed voted down. Musk had further urged that Congress pass no bills for a month until Donald Trump's inauguration and said that the government could be shut down during that time. (That probably would have prevented Trump from having a public inaugural ceremony.) Then Musk and Trump urged Congress to pass a different funding bill. Trump in particular wanted the bill to lift the debt ceiling for an extended period of time. Musk seems to have been most eager to have certain regulatory items removed from the bill. That effort also failed. Finally, on their third try, Congress passed a funding bill that split the difference but mostly gave Musk what he wanted while not giving Trump the debt ceiling relief he asked for. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250112214600-Sheriff_U3-20250112101000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:46, 12 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Then it should be avoided per <a href="/wiki/MOS:IDIOM" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:IDIOM">MOS:IDIOM</a>. As the guideline points, idioms may be well known somewhere but not so much in other English-speaking places, or for users with English as a second language. And an idiom with the word "kill" in it should be at the top of idioms to avoid, for the way it sounds to someone who ignores it's an idiom and reads it literally. <a href="/wiki/User:Cambalachero" title="User:Cambalachero">Cambalachero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cambalachero" title="User talk:Cambalachero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Cambalachero-20250114144900-Sheriff_U3-20250112101000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>You are correct there thinking on it. I am from the US, so I did not know what other nations used or think when they heard this term. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250114180000-Cambalachero-20250114144900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>It may be notable that the phrase "kill the bill" was used in news reports at the time. Here are three passages from a January 2024 story from the Fox affiliate in Tulsa, Oklahoma. One of Oklahoma's two Republican senators, Jim Lankford, was a leading proponent of the bill:</dd> <dd>"WASHINGTON D.C. — Oklahoma U.S. Senator James Lankford (R) is working on a large bill to overhaul the current conditions of U.S.-Mexico border, but he is facing pushback from Former President Donald Trump who is encouraging the Republican controlled House of Representatives to kill the bill." ...</dd> <dd>"However, Trump is now calling for the bill to be killed and is promising to do better if re-elected in November." ...</dd> <dd>"Republican senators supportive of Lankford's efforts have openly accused Trump of trying to kill the bill in order to have a talking point to use in the 2024 election."</dd> <dd>source: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.fox23.com/news/sen-lankford-working-on-immigration-bill-trump-wants-republican-house-to-kill/article_669ff9ea-bef2-11ee-96e8-1fbe4889dae4.html">https://www.fox23.com/news/sen-lankford-working-on-immigration-bill-trump-wants-republican-house-to-kill/article_669ff9ea-bef2-11ee-96e8-1fbe4889dae4.html</a> <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250114194600-Cambalachero-20250114144900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>And a quick search (for immigration lankford "kill the bill") finds many more examples from USA Today, ABC, The Oklahoman, The New Republic, The Washington Examiner, CNN, NBC, and more.</dd> <dd>Charlie Kirk, a Republican activist who didn't like the bill (which he refers to as the product of that mythical creature called the "Uniparty"), wrote that Trump wasn't to blame for the bill failing to pass, but even Kirk uses "kill the bill" to describe what happened. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250114195100-Cambalachero-20250114144900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>It is used to describe bills all the time when a person feels strongly against a bill. It would be wise not to use it though since <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:MOS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:MOS">MOS</a> says to avoid it. It would be better to use a different description in place of "kill the bill", such as "stop the bill". <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250114215200-NME_Frigate-20250114195100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Yes, "kill the bill" is an idiom with huge use. Nobody said another thing. And if you want to keep it, you should explain in which way the article is harmed if "kill the bill" is replaced by some literal expression like "stop the proposed legislation" that do not even change the meaning of the sentence. <a href="/wiki/User:Cambalachero" title="User:Cambalachero">Cambalachero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cambalachero" title="User talk:Cambalachero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Cambalachero-20250114220400-NME_Frigate-20250114195100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>We're kind of talking in circles here. As I said farther up this thread, I too recommended taking out the phrase "kill the bill" unless Donald Trump himself had used it in this instance. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NME_Frigate&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NME Frigate (page does not exist)">NME Frigate</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NME_Frigate" title="User talk:NME Frigate">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NME_Frigate-20250115035800-Cambalachero-20250114220400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> A common thing said on the talk page is "there is consensus in reliable sources over this". Meaning, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS/AC" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS/AC">academic consensus</a>. And so, citing both views would be false balance. But if there truly is such consensus, it is not enough to cite some sources, or even several, holding that view: we need sources that actually say there is such consensus. If no such source can be found, if the academic consensus can not be proven, then we have to assume there isn't, and act in consequence. Meaning, explain both viewpoints, without supporting either in wikivoice, the way NPOV requires. <a href="/wiki/User:Cambalachero" title="User:Cambalachero">Cambalachero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cambalachero" title="User talk:Cambalachero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Cambalachero-20250114221400-2024_United_States_presidential_election" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Which reliable sources have reported on a significant controversy of Kamala Harris? What controversies would those be? Genuinely curious. <a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Prcc27" title="User talk:Prcc27">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Prcc27-20250114234900-Cambalachero-20250114221400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Harris has "word salads" for one, not sure if it was reported on by RS though. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250115170300-Prcc27-20250114234900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:03, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>If she had as many gaffes as Biden, maybe then I could understand adding her word salads to the article body. To the lead? I feel like it would have to be a major controversy. I do not support adding minor controversies for either candidate. We don’t mention Trump’s word salads in the lead, do we? <a href="/wiki/User:Prcc27" title="User:Prcc27">Prcc27</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Prcc27" title="User talk:Prcc27">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Prcc27-20250115191100-Sheriff_U3-20250115170300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>True it was not a huge thing, and I agree with you that we should not add the small stuff. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250116162800-Prcc27-20250115191100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>A word-salad "controversy"? Source? <a href="/wiki/User:Darknipples" title="User:Darknipples">DN</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Darknipples" title="User talk:Darknipples">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Darknipples-20250125000400-Sheriff_U3-20250115170300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:04, 25 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I don't have a RS off-hand and have moved on to different topics. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">Sheriff U3</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> | <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Con</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250125035900-Darknipples-20250125000400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:59, 25 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>Would we not talk about the winner more? <a href="/wiki/User:Slatersteven" title="User:Slatersteven">Slatersteven</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Slatersteven" title="User talk:Slatersteven">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Slatersteven-20250115135800-Cambalachero-20250114221400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>But should we not talk about it from their POV and about their opponent? Harris only gets some passing remarks for the most of it, even when talking about the election in general. <a href="/wiki/User:Sheriff_U3" title="User:Sheriff U3">User Page</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sheriff_U3" title="User talk:Sheriff U3">Talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheriff_U3" title="Special:Contributions/Sheriff U3">Contributions</a> Sheriff U3 <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Sheriff_U3-20250115170600-Slatersteven-20250115135800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Neutrality isn't about giving equal representation to both sides, it is about giving fair representation to both sides, as per reliable sources. For example, the articles on the 1932 German elections talk more about the Nazi Party than other parties, simply because they engaged in more notable rhetoric and events, and because there are more reliable sources for it all <a href="/wiki/User:EarthDude" title="User:EarthDude">EarthDude</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EarthDude" title="User talk:EarthDude">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-EarthDude-20250117011900-Sheriff_U3-20250115170600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I'm reading this thread and a lot of it is veering into a general forum about personal beliefs, and is unmoored in policy or substantive discussion. An editors personal opinion on what a politician meant when they said something is irrelevant. There are frequent claims of bias from certain editors and that "there are other sources" that prove their point, but there have been little if any provision of said sources or specific, proposed changes to the article at hand other than simply removing whole sections claiming that "other sources" disprove it.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I agree, with time and a few years, this article will probably need to be rewritten with some more academic sources, but this will take time. It will probably be 2028 by the time enough academic sources and time has passed before we have enough material to work on the page. There will doubtlessly be much research on this election in future years. So why rush? There is no time limit. <a href="/wiki/User:BootsED" title="User:BootsED">BootsED</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:BootsED" title="User talk:BootsED">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-BootsED-20250118005500-EarthDude-20250117011900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>This thread was started because putting the NPOVD template on the article was brought up, in order to start the actual discussion about neutralizing the article. Now we've been having a meta discussion on whether or not the neutrality is disputed, for over two weeks. I think it's pretty fair to say that the neutrality is in dispute, and the template should be on the page so we can appropriately start having the real discussion. <a href="/wiki/User:Big_Thumpus" title="User:Big Thumpus">Big Thumpus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Big_Thumpus" title="User talk:Big Thumpus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Big_Thumpus-20250118161400-BootsED-20250118005500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:14, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I think what we should be discussing is whether or not putting NPOVD on the article is really necessary and if there are any good arguments for why the article doesn't fit NPOV. <a href="/wiki/User:Akechi_The_Agent_Of_Chaos" title="User:Akechi The Agent Of Chaos">Akechi The Agent Of Chaos</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Akechi_The_Agent_Of_Chaos" title="User talk:Akechi The Agent Of Chaos">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Akechi_The_Agent_Of_Chaos-20250119005800-Big_Thumpus-20250118161400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Agreed. <a href="/wiki/User:Darknipples" title="User:Darknipples">DN</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Darknipples" title="User talk:Darknipples">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Darknipples-20250125000500-Akechi_The_Agent_Of_Chaos-20250119005800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:05, 25 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>"only he about him" What the heck does that mean? <a href="/wiki/User:Dimadick" title="User:Dimadick">Dimadick</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dimadick" title="User talk:Dimadick">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Dimadick-20250118172900-Cambalachero-20250114221400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>"It hardly every talks about the election from a Republican view point." That is a good thing. Why would we write from a <a href="/wiki/Neo-fascist" class="mw-redirect" title="Neo-fascist">neo-fascist</a> POV? <a href="/wiki/User:Dimadick" title="User:Dimadick">Dimadick</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dimadick" title="User talk:Dimadick">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Dimadick-20250118173000-Cambalachero-20250114221400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Political insults do not help anyone <a href="/wiki/User:Cambalachero" title="User:Cambalachero">Cambalachero</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cambalachero" title="User talk:Cambalachero">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Cambalachero-20250118173700-Dimadick-20250118173000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Friedersdorf_from_the_Atlantic_on_a_DEI_resignation" data-mw-thread-id="h-Friedersdorf_from_the_Atlantic_on_a_DEI_resignation-20250121032100">Friedersdorf from the Atlantic on a DEI resignation</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Friedersdorf from the Atlantic on a DEI resignation">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> Does <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/09/the-unorthodox-solution-to-the-worlds-migration-woes/671598/">this Atlantic article</a> (along with <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://reason.com/2022/09/30/mandated-diversity-statement-drives-jonathan-haidt-to-quit-academic-society/">this editorial</a> from reason.com, which according to RSN consensus should be evaluated for due weight so it might not really count) give enough DueWeight to include the following sentence before the sentence that ends <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">the other half saw it as "an ideological litmus test that violates academic freedom"</q> in the article <a href="/wiki/Diversity,_equity,_and_inclusion" title="Diversity, equity, and inclusion">diversity, equity, and inclusion</a>? <div style="display:inline-block;border-style: solid;padding: 3px;border-color: black;border-width: 2px;background-color: white;color: black;margin: 3px;">Social psychologist <a href="/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt" title="Jonathan Haidt">Jonathan Haidt</a>, who resigned from the <a href="/wiki/Society_for_Personality_and_Social_Psychology" title="Society for Personality and Social Psychology">Society for Personality and Social Psychology</a> in protest against mandatory diversity statements, has stated that "most academic work has nothing to do with diversity, so these mandatory statements force many academics to betray their quasi-fiduciary duty to the truth by spinning, twisting, or otherwise inventing some tenuous connection to diversity".</div> <a href="/wiki/User:Aaron_Liu" title="User:Aaron Liu">Aaron Liu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aaron_Liu#top" title="User talk:Aaron Liu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Aaron_Liu-20250121032100-Friedersdorf_from_the_Atlantic_on_a_DEI_resignation" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>that's a gigantic quote for a tiny resignation from some specific society. would not be due weight as is.</dd> <dd>is there a conservative opinion piece from some place such as national review or nytimes critiquing all of DEI in education? would be more useful to use that as a source and just do a quick line about how conservatives criticize dei. <a href="/wiki/User:Bluethricecreamman" title="User:Bluethricecreamman">Bluethricecreamman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bluethricecreamman" title="User talk:Bluethricecreamman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250121040200-Aaron_Liu-20250121032100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>While I now agree that we should ideally seek an independent summary, Haidt and this society are in no way specific/insignificant. It seems Haidt co-proposed and popularized "<a href="/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory" title="Moral foundations theory">Moral foundations theory</a>" and a ton of new theories and models. Recently, he's been famous with his book <a href="/wiki/The_Anxious_Generation" title="The Anxious Generation">The Anxious Generation</a>. Said society is also the largest society of social psychology, Haidt's field. <a href="/wiki/User:Aaron_Liu" title="User:Aaron Liu">Aaron Liu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aaron_Liu#top" title="User talk:Aaron Liu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Aaron_Liu-20250122134800-Bluethricecreamman-20250121040200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>I don't see that the Reason article is an editorial or is any more or less due than the Atlantic article. I'm less certain how this fits into the DEI article as a whole. In what context is it being included? Is the view of Jonathan Haidt prominent or is this just an example of an academic expressing this view? Looking at the paragraph containing the sentence I could see it being included but perhaps with half the words (the existing sentence about the other scholar also seems long). Fundamentally the material appears DUE in context of supporting the idea that people were opposing these mandatory statements. A summary of the concerns would be due but extended quotes move away from summary and might suggest that the quoted individuals are inherently notable in this context. <a href="/wiki/User:Springee" title="User:Springee">Springee</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Springee" title="User talk:Springee">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Springee-20250121043800-Aaron_Liu-20250121032100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> <ul><li>Per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RSP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RSP">WP:RSP</a>, the Atlantic does not always clearly distinguish between reporting and opinion; that piece, described as <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">a newsletter by <a href="/wiki/Conor_Friedersdorf" title="Conor Friedersdorf">Conor Friedersdorf</a></q> and which is written in the first person, is obviously opinion. Reason, of course, as noted in RSP, is also <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">a biased or opinionated source that primarily publishes commentary, analysis, and opinion articles</q>. This doesn't make either of them unreliable, but it does affect their due weight - in practice this is two people who work for Team Purple, quoting another member of Team Purple saying Team Yellow's Policies Suck And This Is Why. Things like that are usually <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">WP:UNDUE</a> unless they're by experts on the topic bringing up substantive new points of obvious relevance, which isn't the case here - this is just a reiteration of their party line on DEI, which is already referenced and cited in the article to a better-quality secondary source (the article already says that <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">A 1,500-person survey conducted by FIRE reported that the issue is highly polarizing for faculty members, with half saying their view more closely aligns with the description of diversity statements as "a justifiable requirement for a job at a university", while the other half saw it as "an ideological litmus test that violates academic freedom"</q>.) Piling on quotes from the same people saying substantially the same thing doesn't make the article more balanced, especially when it's people whose only real expertise is "has strong opinions about this." --<a href="/wiki/User:Aquillion" title="User:Aquillion">Aquillion</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aquillion" title="User talk:Aquillion">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Aquillion-20250121052800-Aaron_Liu-20250121032100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li> <li>As per my comments at article talk I also don't think that the opinion author - Connor Friedersdorf - has any sort of expertise or special insight into the subject to make his opinions due inclusion. <a href="/wiki/User:Simonm223" title="User:Simonm223">Simonm223</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simonm223" title="User talk:Simonm223">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Simonm223-20250121123900-Aaron_Liu-20250121032100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>What kind of expertise do you expect for this kind of page? Would a professor do? I don't see how that would be any better than a secondary source. <a href="/wiki/User:Oort1" title="User:Oort1">Hi!</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Oort1" title="User talk:Oort1">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Oort1-20250122050100-Simonm223-20250121123900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></li> <li>I argue that individual opinions from specific people shouldn't be included on articles like this at all unless they're critical to the topic's history. Doubly so for quotations. This topic is extensively written about, find general sources that describe criticisms. Stop using Google to find sources and start using <a href="/wiki/Google_Scholar" title="Google Scholar">Google Scholar</a> or the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TWL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TWL">Wikipedia Library</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Thebiguglyalien-20250121171500-Aaron_Liu-20250121032100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Ideally both in conjunction since you can directly link to Google Scholar and pull full article text from Wikipedia Library. <a href="/wiki/User:Simonm223" title="User:Simonm223">Simonm223</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simonm223" title="User talk:Simonm223">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Simonm223-20250121171600-Thebiguglyalien-20250121171500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:16, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>That's a brilliant idea! I've only tried the latter alone yesterday, which wasn't fruitful. I'll try your way later. <a href="/wiki/User:Aaron_Liu" title="User:Aaron Liu">Aaron Liu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Aaron_Liu#top" title="User talk:Aaron Liu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Aaron_Liu-20250121183400-Simonm223-20250121171600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Yeah when I first started using Wikipedia Library I didn't know about the links from it not working. So cross-referencing against google scholar really helps if you're working principally with academic sources. Which I strongly encourage. ;) <a href="/wiki/User:Simonm223" title="User:Simonm223">Simonm223</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simonm223" title="User talk:Simonm223">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Simonm223-20250122135000-Aaron_Liu-20250121183400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></li></ul> <ul><li>I agree with Aquillon (whose Purple Team comment is extremely apt for this and so many other pages here which get filled up with opinion), Simonm223 and Thebiguglyalien. Very much undue. <a href="/wiki/User:Bobfrombrockley" title="User:Bobfrombrockley">BobFromBrockley</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bobfrombrockley" title="User talk:Bobfrombrockley">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Bobfrombrockley-20250206205900-Aaron_Liu-20250121032100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:59, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Can_someone_neutral_add_'2024_Australian_Jewish_doxxing_incident'_to_their_watchlist?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Can_someone_neutral_add_'2024_Australian_Jewish_doxxing_incident'_to_their_watch-20250125012000">Can someone neutral add '2024 Australian Jewish doxxing incident' to their watchlist?</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Can someone neutral add '2024 Australian Jewish doxxing incident' to their watchlist?">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> I've deliberately avoided the <a href="/wiki/Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict" title="Arab–Israeli conflict">Arab–Israeli conflict</a> conflict on Wikipedia for over 16 years, but I've unfortunately found myself unintentionally brought into it this week. Quick, possibly irrelevant backstory paragraph: I do have an interest in articles about writers so I have been editing the article for <a href="/wiki/Clementine_Ford_(writer)" title="Clementine Ford (writer)">Clementine Ford (writer)</a> since 2017, long before her article had any involvement in the I/A conflict herself. Someone manipulated the information attributed to a source at that article to say something was only "alleged" in relation to the I/A conflict, when the source explicitly said otherwise: <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clementine_Ford_%28writer%29&diff=1269826802&oldid=1268154159">[1]</a>. Shortly after, someone linked to the new article <a href="/wiki/2024_Australian_Jewish_doxxing_incident" title="2024 Australian Jewish doxxing incident">2024 Australian Jewish doxxing incident</a> at the article for Ford. I went to look at it out of curiosity, and I noticed it was also saying that specific incident was alleged, when even the sources used at that article said otherwise. I then noticed many other POV edits. If you want, have a look at the article before my first edit <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Australian_Jewish_doxxing_incident&oldid=1270845347">[2]</a>, and then look at my edits to the article and their summaries for examples. The article was written by someone who can only be assumed to feel very strongly about one side of the conflict. A second editor whose edits make it apparent they feel the same way is the only other person besides myself involved. Examples of edits I find concerning. <ul><li>For balance I added some opposing views to the article, but the paragraph was completely deleted by one of the other two editors <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Australian_Jewish_doxxing_incident&diff=1271307667&oldid=1271016239">[3]</a> on the justification that "we cannot have a flood of opinion articles here". The irony is the article is flooded with conservative opinions (which would be fine as long as they adhere to WP:DUE), but only the paragraph offering opposing opinions was deleted with this justification.</li> <li>That same editor felt the need to label a writer who signed a statement of solidarity with Palestine as a "pro-Palestinian individual" <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Australian_Jewish_doxxing_incident&diff=1270208817&oldid=1270208483">[4]</a>, yet the article uses many conservative and pro-Israeli sources, such as <a href="/wiki/Tablet_(magazine)" title="Tablet (magazine)">Tablet (magazine)</a>, without the need to clarify those writers are 'pro-Israeli individuals'.</li></ul> Here are outstanding issues that I can see after asking for advice from a neutral party who also didn't want to get involved (they recommended I bring up the issue here instead). <ul><li>The phrases "individuals describing themselves as pro-Palestine activists" and "a group describing themselves as pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist activists". Is this meant to cast doubt on the activists?</li> <li>The over-reliance on conservative sources which are not likely to provide balanced coverage of the issue. For example, there are ten citations to <a href="/wiki/The_Australian" title="The Australian">The Australian</a>. Here's a scholarly source which analysed language from that publication and concluded they have a bias against Palestine: <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://theconversation.com/australian-medias-instagram-posts-on-gaza-war-have-an-anti-palestine-bias-that-has-real-world-consequences-221609">[5]</a></li> <li>We cannot find the direct quote "First Nations people and anti-zionist Jews" in the <a href="/wiki/Times_of_Israel" class="mw-redirect" title="Times of Israel">Times of Israel</a> source provided.</li> <li>Does the jumbled phrase "continuing the use of using Zio as a racist slur to refer to the Jewish community" come from a source or is it an editor's opinion?</li> <li>The use of the cherry-picked block quote seems like UNDUE weight, just because it's a block quote. I think this should just be prose. I could easily add a block quote of what one of the members of WhatsApp group said about Palestinian activists, but I think that would be inappropriate as well.</li></ul> I don't want to monitor this article for biased edits by myself, in fact I don't want to monitor it at all. If anyone is willing to add the article to their watchlist, or decide whether a NPOV tag is warranted or edits are needed, please consider doing so. Full disclosure; I get told I'm a <a href="/wiki/Subject-matter_expert" title="Subject-matter expert">subject-matter expert</a> on imprisonment, and last year I gave a public talk about Palestinians held by Israel in <a href="/wiki/Administrative_detention" title="Administrative detention">Administrative detention</a>, because I feel strongly about people being imprisoned without charge. While I do think I can edit about the conflict in a neutral manner, I don't want to as I don't think people who feel strongly about one side should be writing about this topic at all. I just can't bring myself to remove myself from the article while there's no other oversight. Quite frankly, I want to pass the baton for this and leave. <a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Damien_Linnane" title="User talk:Damien Linnane">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Damien_Linnane-20250125012000-Can_someone_neutral_add_'2024_Australian_Jewish_doxxing_incident'_to_their_watch" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:20, 25 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Seems like another current events PIA article where everyone and their mother wants to spam it with info and try to shape it. It looks like this is already covered in <a href="/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Australia" title="Antisemitism in Australia">Antisemitism in Australia</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Thebiguglyalien-20250126212800-Damien_Linnane-20250125012000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:28, 26 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Made a merge proposal at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Antisemitism_in_Australia" title="Talk:Antisemitism in Australia">Talk:Antisemitism in Australia</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hemiauchenia" title="User talk:Hemiauchenia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Hemiauchenia-20250127122800-Thebiguglyalien-20250126212800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:28, 27 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a>: Note, the editor currently opposing your merge proposal at that talk page is the same editor who made both the edits I listed above which I find concerning, and is in my opinion the reason the article needs neutral oversight in the first place. <a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Damien_Linnane" title="User talk:Damien Linnane">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Damien_Linnane-20250128020900-Hemiauchenia-20250127122800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:09, 28 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a>: @<a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a>: I'm not surprised that the merge proposal isn't being received well. Considering that, and that you're the only two people who responded to my post, would either of you be willing to look at and/or add the article to your watchlist since it very much looks like it's here to stay?</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a>, I absolutely understand your assessment, but I think what's happening is a group of editors who feel very strongly about the incident are writing the article, and I just plain don't want to be the only person reverting the manipulation and cherry-picking of sources. Here's another new example of changing the incident I originally referred to back to "alleged", when the source explicitly says otherwise <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Australian_Jewish_doxxing_incident&diff=1272348935&oldid=1272348372">[6]</a>. The history of the page shows that edits that attribute false statement to sources are left intact by the writers of the article. Here's an example of a false statement being attributed to a source (the source actually says the exact opposite of what was added here <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Australian_Jewish_doxxing_incident&diff=1270959565&oldid=1270958916">[7]</a>, but note that the original writer of the article leaves this intact when continuing to make changes. Any kind of neutral oversight at the article would be appreciated. <a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Damien_Linnane" title="User talk:Damien Linnane">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Damien_Linnane-20250129234300-Hemiauchenia-20250127122800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:43, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>The correct solution is to report those people at AE. Which is impotent when it comes to POV pushing and will do nothing, but at least it will be the admins' fault then instead of ours. <a href="/wiki/User:Thebiguglyalien" title="User:Thebiguglyalien">Thebiguglyalien</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Thebiguglyalien" title="User talk:Thebiguglyalien">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Thebiguglyalien-20250129235300-Damien_Linnane-20250129234300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:53, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>I'm not surprised to see someone else has just nominated the article for deletion: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/2024_Australian_Jewish_doxxing_incident" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2024 Australian Jewish doxxing incident">Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2024 Australian Jewish doxxing incident</a>. Comments are welcome. <a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Damien_Linnane" title="User talk:Damien Linnane">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Damien_Linnane-20250205225700-Thebiguglyalien-20250129235300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:57, 5 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a>, per the big notice at the top of the page, if you're going to link to an editor's diffs and effectively make the case that they're engaged in POV-pushing, you need to notify them. I will now do so. With that said, I find the case made here compelling, especially taken together with attempts to railroad the discussion at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Antisemitism_in_Australia#Note_re:_close" title="Talk:Antisemitism in Australia">Talk:Antisemitism_in_Australia#Note_re:_close</a>, and am currently of the opinion that a topic ban is warranted pending a really good explanation from <a href="/wiki/User:%D7%93%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99.%D7%94%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9D" title="User:דברי.הימים">דברי.הימים</a>. signed, <a href="/wiki/User:Rosguill" title="User:Rosguill">Rosguill</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rosguill" title="User talk:Rosguill">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rosguill-20250205231700-Damien_Linnane-20250125012000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:17, 5 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Hi <a href="/wiki/User:Rosguill" title="User:Rosguill">Rosguill</a>. Thanks for letting me know. I am guilty of being too lazy to read the notice. I don't think I've ever posted here before. I assumed, poorly, that I didn't have to ping them if I wasn't asking for action to be taken against them. At the time I was only pointing out why I wanted someone neutral to watch the page. That being said, I've since actually gone through some of their other edits which show a very consistent form of behaviour regarding this topic. I'll take the case to AIN later today, with diffs, unless you had plans to initiate a discussion there or somewhere else in the meantime. <a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Damien_Linnane" title="User talk:Damien Linnane">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Damien_Linnane-20250206001600-Rosguill-20250205231700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:16, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Discussion could just continue here, it's within my discretion as admin to take action so there's no need to flag down an admin to look at the discussion. Usually disciplinary cases are brought up elsewhere, but this board is clearly suitable for it (hence the notice). signed, <a href="/wiki/User:Rosguill" title="User:Rosguill">Rosguill</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rosguill" title="User talk:Rosguill">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rosguill-20250206002000-Damien_Linnane-20250206001600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:20, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Good to know <a href="/wiki/User:Rosguill" title="User:Rosguill">Rosguill</a>, I'm very happy for discussion to just continue here, where people have already been pinged.</dd> <dd>In that case, you may find this interesting <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clementine_Ford_%28writer%29&diff=1210140054&oldid=1209766940">[8]</a>. This is the the first ever set of edits to the page <a href="/wiki/Clementine_Ford_(writer)" title="Clementine Ford (writer)">Clementine Ford (writer)</a> from <a href="/wiki/User:%D7%93%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99.%D7%94%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9D" title="User:דברי.הימים">דברי.הימים</a>.</dd> <dd>To make things simpler, here is before their edits (<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clementine_Ford_(writer)&oldid=1209766940">[9]</a>) and here is immediately after: <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clementine_Ford_(writer)&oldid=1210140054">[10]</a></dd> <dd>Note that before the edits, the relevant section states, with high quality sources, "as the group grew significantly, a minority began discussing campaigns against pro-Palestinian figures, including Ford", and "According to Ford, the information had been leaked from the WhatsApp group by pro-Palestinian anti-Zionist Jews". This was removed, as was another statement made by Ford defending her position (granted this only had a primary source). One of Ford's statements related to the group was removed on the grounds it was "excess detail" <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clementine_Ford_(writer)&diff=next&oldid=1210120601">[11]</a>, but information about why the group whose information she shared was founded was added in: <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clementine_Ford_(writer)&diff=next&oldid=1210120123">[12]</a>. I'm not actually overly opposed to adding that latter information in. The point is that this editor chose to remove that members of this group campaigned against Ford, which is extremely relevant to her actions, though information about why the group was initially created, which is either not (or at least less) relevant to her actions, was added in. <a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Damien_Linnane" title="User talk:Damien Linnane">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Damien_Linnane-20250206064500-Rosguill-20250206002000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:45, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>This <a href="/wiki/Special:Diff/1274223878" title="Special:Diff/1274223878">diff</a> from דברי.הימים following my notification of them does not inspire confidence. I'm willing to wait a few days in case "short" really does mean short, but absent a reply I think there is enough evidence here to justify a topic ban from the PIA topics broadly construed. signed, <a href="/wiki/User:Rosguill" title="User:Rosguill">Rosguill</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rosguill" title="User talk:Rosguill">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rosguill-20250206185900-Damien_Linnane-20250206064500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:59, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Rosguill" title="User:Rosguill">Rosguill</a>@<a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a> Concerns about this user go back a while:</dd> <dd>See <a href="/wiki/Template_talk:Islam_in_Australia_sidebar" title="Template talk:Islam in Australia sidebar">1</a></dd> <dd>Also a couple of other incidents:</dd> <dd><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jenny_Leong&diff=prev&oldid=1210123383">2</a> adding "antisemitism in Australia" category to a politician's BLP</dd> <dd><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jenny_Leong&diff=prev&oldid=1209001540">3</a> adding pretty obvious POV "apologized for saying it on camera, rather than just thinking it or bringing it up at a Greens Party meeting." <a href="/wiki/User:GraziePrego" title="User:GraziePrego">GraziePrego</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GraziePrego" title="User talk:GraziePrego">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-GraziePrego-20250207003900-Rosguill-20250206185900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:39, 7 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <ul><li>was curious about this user if they are just new, but they have 20k+ edits.</li> <li>also is gathering a literal table of edits they term "antisemitic" on their talk page, which is neither the appropriate venue, nor does it seem like AGF.</li></ul></dd> <dd>they seem productive outside the topic area, but topic ban seems useful. <a href="/wiki/User:Bluethricecreamman" title="User:Bluethricecreamman">User:Bluethricecreamman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bluethricecreamman" title="User talk:Bluethricecreamman">Talk</a>·<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman" title="Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman">Contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250207004600-Rosguill-20250206185900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:46, 7 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>They also added the "antisemitism in Australia" category to the writer's BLP: <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clementine_Ford_%28writer%29&diff=1210117462&oldid=1209766940">[13]</a></dd> <dd>They do appear to edit outside this area in a productive manner, so a topic ban seems appropriate to me. <a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Damien_Linnane" title="User talk:Damien Linnane">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Damien_Linnane-20250207055300-Bluethricecreamman-20250207004600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:53, 7 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Hi again <a href="/wiki/User:Rosguill" title="User:Rosguill">Rosguill</a>. Just following this up if you've reached a decision. No worries if you need more time. If you need more diffs I am willing to do a slightly deeper dive into edit history. I don't know how things usually work here but as far as I'm concerned once you make a decision, whatever that is, I'm happy for this thread to be archived, if that suits. The article would definitely benefit from more people at least adding it to their watchlist for oversight and some more minor POV issues remain, but as far as I'm concerned the editor in question and their willingness/ability to make similar edits here and elsewhere is the only major outstanding issue. Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Damien_Linnane" title="User talk:Damien Linnane">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Damien_Linnane-20250210035300-Damien_Linnane-20250207055300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:53, 10 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>As I indicated earlier, I think that the evidence thus far already merits a t-ban. At this point, I'm less deliberating than just waiting a respectful amount of time for דיברי.הימים to offer a statement in their defense, and I don't intend to wait much past this weekend. I am admittedly going back and forth on whether the apparent <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ANIFLU" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ANIFLU">WP:ANIFLU</a> on their part warrants further sanctions (e.g. a mainspace block) or if they can be trusted to follow a topic ban. signed, <a href="/wiki/User:Rosguill" title="User:Rosguill">Rosguill</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rosguill" title="User talk:Rosguill">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rosguill-20250210040300-Damien_Linnane-20250210035300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:03, 10 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I've now issued and logged a topic-ban, so I believe there is nothing further to be done in this thread at this time. signed, <a href="/wiki/User:Rosguill" title="User:Rosguill">Rosguill</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rosguill" title="User talk:Rosguill">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rosguill-20250210143100-Rosguill-20250210040300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:31, 10 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Agreed. I'm happy for this thread to be archived. <a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Damien_Linnane" title="User talk:Damien Linnane">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Damien_Linnane-20250211035200-Rosguill-20250210143100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:52, 11 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Rosguill" title="User:Rosguill">Rosguill</a> Just to clarify, does this ban the user from editing in relation to antisemitism in general, or just specifically about the conflict? I worry that their POV editing stretches into general editing about antisemitism, not just specifically about the conflict, so I think it would be appropriate to prevent them editing about antisemitism in general too. <a href="/wiki/User:GraziePrego" title="User:GraziePrego">GraziePrego</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GraziePrego" title="User talk:GraziePrego">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-GraziePrego-20250211043800-Rosguill-20250210143100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:38, 11 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:GraziePrego" title="User:GraziePrego">GraziePrego</a>, it is not a ban from antisemitism more broadly; first, antisemitism writ large is not covered by <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CTOP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CTOP">WP:CTOP</a>, so it would require a more formal proposal and community discussion to approve. Second, the evidence presented here relating to <a href="/wiki/2024_Australian_Jewish_doxxing_incident" title="2024 Australian Jewish doxxing incident">2024 Australian Jewish doxxing incident</a> all concerns Arab-Israeli conflict material, so it's my view that additional evidence of disruption outside the overlap with Arab-Israeli conflict would be necessary to justify such an expansion. signed, <a href="/wiki/User:Rosguill" title="User:Rosguill">Rosguill</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rosguill" title="User talk:Rosguill">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rosguill-20250211143200-GraziePrego-20250211043800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:32, 11 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:GraziePrego" title="User:GraziePrego">GraziePrego</a>, my read of the terms of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BROADLY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BROADLY">WP:BROADLY</a> is that if an editor was <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TBAN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TBAN">WP:TBAN</a>'ed from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ARBPIA" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ARBPIA">WP:ARBPIA</a>, that they'd be playing with fire if they were to start engaging in any discussion involving antisemitism. <a href="/wiki/User:TarnishedPath" class="mw-redirect" title="User:TarnishedPath">TarnishedPath</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TarnishedPath" title="User talk:TarnishedPath">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-TarnishedPath-20250211144500-Rosguill-20250211143200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:45, 11 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <ul><li>hi all. There were a couple of edits that weren't useful. There was no need to label Copland a "pro-Palestinian" academic for one. I discussed these points with <a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien_Linnane</a>.</li></ul></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Noteduck" title="User:Noteduck">Noteduck</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Noteduck" title="User talk:Noteduck">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Noteduck-20250207063700-Damien_Linnane-20250125012000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:37, 7 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:Noteduck" title="User:Noteduck">Noteduck</a>'s conversation with me on the talk page, after I originally posted here, has indeed been constructive and helpful in improving the article. <a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Damien_Linnane" title="User talk:Damien Linnane">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Damien_Linnane-20250207130400-Noteduck-20250207063700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:04, 7 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a>, if the article is full of opinion pieces, presuming they aren't authoritative opinions of subject matter experts, remove them per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RSOPINION" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RSOPINION">WP:RSOPINION</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:TarnishedPath" class="mw-redirect" title="User:TarnishedPath">TarnishedPath</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:TarnishedPath" title="User talk:TarnishedPath">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-TarnishedPath-20250211044700-Damien_Linnane-20250125012000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:47, 11 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I know, but because it's part of a contentious topic I'm hesitant to entrench myself further as the only editor opposing how the article was originally written. Now that one main contributor of the article has been topic banned, the only two major contributors are the creator and myself, and frankly I think I've reached my peak of how bold I want to be in making changes. As mentioned at the initial post, I've avoided this topic on here until now, and wasn't planning to get involved in this article; I've found it to be quite stressful already and I don't know how people have the stamina to actively edit in contentious areas. Thankfully most (though not all) of the POV prose issues have indeed been addressed since I started this discussion, though an uninvolved editor at the deletion nomination did say a large number of the sources currently in the article should not be used. I was hoping a neutral editor would want to become involved, though I can't say I blame anyone for not wanting to. <a href="/wiki/User:Damien_Linnane" title="User:Damien Linnane">Damien Linnane</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Damien_Linnane" title="User talk:Damien Linnane">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Damien_Linnane-20250211152600-TarnishedPath-20250211044700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:26, 11 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Qubad_Talabani_page_is_just_copy-pasted_from_his_own_website,_and_is_hence_severely_violating_npov" data-mw-thread-id="h-Qubad_Talabani_page_is_just_copy-pasted_from_his_own_website,_and_is_hence_sever-20250128133600">Qubad Talabani page is just copy-pasted from his own website, and is hence severely violating npov</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Qubad Talabani page is just copy-pasted from his own website, and is hence severely violating npov">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> Sorry if this is the wrong place, I don't use Wikipedia community mechanisms often and I am not too familiar with them, so please correct me if needed. Nevertheless, the severity of the overall bad-ness of this article simply cannot be ignored. This article clearly violates the fundamental rule of Wikipedia: "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." The article is exceptionally biased and reads as if it's written by a PR firm for Qubad Talabani. Pretty much the whole article is like this, but I shall show a few quotes: "In every aspect of his work, Talabani believes the government is first and foremost a servant of the Kurdish people, according to the highest standards of contemporary governance. In being this, Talabani believes government officials must rise above partisan political conflicts." (No sources). "Talabani's efforts in these areas are accompanied by staunch support of key social issues in the Kurdistan Region. He has worked to improve the region's legal framework, so that it is easier to combat violence against women. He also always stresses the importance of supporting and celebrating young Kurdish people in whatever sector they're in. Talabani has also helped develop agriculture and tourism in the region." (No sources). "For Qubad Talabani, the ultimate goal of politics is to create a free and just society." Obvious bias, and this whole section is pretty much just taken from his own website, (<a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://qubadtalabani.krd/about/vision?lang=en">https://qubadtalabani.krd/about/vision?lang=en</a>). Because it's presumably just copy-pasted, the formatting is all wrong and just uses bold text rather than subheadings. Frankly, though, that section should just be wiped and the entire article ought to be re-written from scratch. Also, as I hinted earlier, there is a severe lack of sourcing in general, with all 3 sources being...from his own website. I may, if I have time, try to do this myself, though I am quite busy and may struggle to do so. I encourage others who have more time and energy to do it before me, or at least to reduce the content to a stub. Thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:LevatorScapulaeSyndrome" title="User:LevatorScapulaeSyndrome">LevatorScapulaeSyndrome</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LevatorScapulaeSyndrome" title="User talk:LevatorScapulaeSyndrome">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-LevatorScapulaeSyndrome-20250128133600-Qubad_Talabani_page_is_just_copy-pasted_from_his_own_website,_and_is_hence_sever" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:36, 28 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Here is a link to the article for other readers: <a href="/wiki/Qubad_Talabani" title="Qubad Talabani">Qubad Talabani</a></dd> <dd>I think the main issue is that the entire thing is a copyright violation of Talabani's website. I'll try and do something about that. <a href="/wiki/User:Reconrabbit" title="User:Reconrabbit">Recon</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Reconrabbit" title="User talk:Reconrabbit">rabbit</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Reconrabbit-20250128205900-LevatorScapulaeSyndrome-20250128133600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:59, 28 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Thank you, the page has been greatly improved. Jolly good! <a href="/wiki/User:LevatorScapulaeSyndrome" title="User:LevatorScapulaeSyndrome">LevatorScapulaeSyndrome</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LevatorScapulaeSyndrome" title="User talk:LevatorScapulaeSyndrome">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-LevatorScapulaeSyndrome-20250201201300-Reconrabbit-20250128205900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:13, 1 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Claus_Spreckels:_Accusations_of_slave_ownership" data-mw-thread-id="h-Claus_Spreckels:_Accusations_of_slave_ownership-20250129030800"><a href="/wiki/Claus_Spreckels" title="Claus Spreckels">Claus Spreckels</a>: Accusations of slave ownership</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Claus Spreckels: Accusations of slave ownership">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> There's an issue with a recent set of edits to the article on 19th-20th Century sugar magnate <a href="/wiki/Claus_Spreckles" class="mw-redirect" title="Claus Spreckles">Claus Spreckles</a> and the accusation that he was a slave owner, stated in the lede and supported by a section who's only source is a New York Times article from 1900. I reverted this as plainly violating Wikipedia's standards on NPOV and sourcing, but the other editor has disputed this and reverted. I don't want to get into an editing war, but I've put up some content dispute templates and am adding a notice here to get more eyes on the subject. My answer to this dispute - there are no less than two biographies of Spreckles, including one that just came out last year. Why are these not being consulted as to whether he was a slave owner, the nature of his labor practices in the context of the time? Not to mention his relationship with other sugar industrialists and the San Francisco Chronicle of that era, which I've read was the source of much of his bad press historically. I think this article should adhere to the consensus of later historians and use primary sources only as backup to that. <a href="/wiki/User:Peter_G_Werner" title="User:Peter G Werner">Peter G Werner</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Peter_G_Werner" title="User talk:Peter G Werner">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Peter_G_Werner-20250129030800-Claus_Spreckels:_Accusations_of_slave_ownership" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:08, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>NYTimes is a significant source that cannot be dismissed unless its shown it was factually wrong.</dd> <dd>Omission of the fact by a biography isnt enough. you need to show nytimes got it wrong <a href="/wiki/User:Bluethricecreamman" title="User:Bluethricecreamman">Bluethricecreamman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bluethricecreamman" title="User talk:Bluethricecreamman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250129031200-Peter_G_Werner-20250129030800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:12, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>My case about ignoring secondary sources in favor of primary ones stands. One single article from 1900, even in the New York Times, cannot be considered definitive. <a href="/wiki/User:Peter_G_Werner" title="User:Peter G Werner">Peter G Werner</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Peter_G_Werner" title="User talk:Peter G Werner">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Peter_G_Werner-20250129031500-Bluethricecreamman-20250129031200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:15, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>… but new york times isnt a primary source <a href="/wiki/User:Bluethricecreamman" title="User:Bluethricecreamman">Bluethricecreamman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bluethricecreamman" title="User talk:Bluethricecreamman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250129032200-Peter_G_Werner-20250129031500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:22, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Don't gaslight me please. A SINGLE article from 1900, devoid of any other context or references to historical work published since then, is by definition favoring a primary source, per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PRIMARY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PRIMARY">WP:PRIMARY</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Peter_G_Werner" title="User:Peter G Werner">Peter G Werner</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Peter_G_Werner" title="User talk:Peter G Werner">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Peter_G_Werner-20250129035700-Bluethricecreamman-20250129032200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:57, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I don't see anything wrong with their interpretation of PRIMARY, but if you feel this still qualifies, take it to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RSN" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RSN">WP:RSN</a>. As far as accusing others of gaslighting please read <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:AGF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:AGF">WP:AGF</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Darknipples" title="User:Darknipples">DN</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Darknipples" title="User talk:Darknipples">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Darknipples-20250129064500-Peter_G_Werner-20250129035700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:45, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I should be allowed to respond to other people's aggressive behavior. Bluethricecreamman is *extremely* out of line here and I should not be called out simply because I don't have the patience of a saint. <a href="/wiki/User:Peter_G_Werner" title="User:Peter G Werner">Peter G Werner</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Peter_G_Werner" title="User talk:Peter G Werner">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Peter_G_Werner-20250129201400-Darknipples-20250129064500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:14, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I disagree that they were calling you out, they seemed to simply restate that the NYT is not a PRIMARY, which seems correct, though, I will leave it up to them to decide if they feel the need to reconcile that. Back to the topic at hand, their statement that "Omission of the fact by a biography isnt enough" also seems to be correct. Do you have any sources that directly and explicitly dispute the "accusation" as you put it? Cheers. <a href="/wiki/User:Darknipples" title="User:Darknipples">DN</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Darknipples" title="User talk:Darknipples">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Darknipples-20250129215100-Peter_G_Werner-20250129201400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:51, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>There is a discussion taking place now over at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Claus_Spreckels" title="Talk:Claus Spreckels">Talk:Claus Spreckels</a>. At issue is the poorly-supported statement "Claus Spreckels was a slave owner", which most certainly does raise NPOV issues given that no such statement is made in other historical works about Claus Spreckels. Also at issue, and this is to do with reliable sources, is how a signal newspaper article can be said to override subsequent biographical and historical work on the same subject. And yes, as a matter of fact, I have found other material on the Puerto Rican laborers in question, detailed over at the talk page, and there is zero evidence that these people were unfree laborers in Hawaii, and hence cannot be said to have been anybody's property, de facto or de jure, and are not evidence for someone being a "slave owner". <a href="/wiki/User:Peter_G_Werner" title="User:Peter G Werner">Peter G Werner</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Peter_G_Werner" title="User talk:Peter G Werner">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Peter_G_Werner-20250129235000-Darknipples-20250129215100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:50, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Just to clarify, the concern they seem to be raising here is the use of absence of evidence to dispute NYT, otherwise known as the <a href="/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance" title="Argument from ignorance">Argument from ignorance</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Darknipples" title="User:Darknipples">DN</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Darknipples" title="User talk:Darknipples">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Darknipples-20250130001800-Peter_G_Werner-20250129235000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:18, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>The pdf you provided there has ample evidence of slavery. I just left a comment with quotations from it. <a href="/wiki/User:Delectopierre" title="User:Delectopierre">Delectopierre</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Delectopierre" title="User talk:Delectopierre">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Delectopierre-20250130033000-Peter_G_Werner-20250129235000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:30, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><s>Hey could you explain this definition of primary? I’ve asked them a few times and haven't gotten a reply.</s> Scratch that. I misunderstood your statement. <a href="/wiki/User:Delectopierre" title="User:Delectopierre">Delectopierre</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Delectopierre" title="User talk:Delectopierre">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Delectopierre-20250130033500-Darknipples-20250129064500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:35, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>The Times is a secondary source here, but absolutely modern scholarship takes precedence over a 120-year-old article. It shouldn't be relied upon (let alone so heavily quoted.) A cursory GBooks search brings up multiple sources that address the subject in context and while I cannot read enough of the excerpts to answer the question, those are what should be consulted and preferred. <a href="/wiki/User:David_Fuchs" title="User:David Fuchs">Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_Fuchs" title="User talk:David Fuchs">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-David_Fuchs-20250129235600-Peter_G_Werner-20250129030800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:56, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Is this really not mentioned in those biographies? <a href="/wiki/Adolph_B._Spreckels" title="Adolph B. Spreckels">Adolph B. Spreckels</a> attempted to assassinate the editor of <a href="/wiki/The_San_Francisco_Chronicle" class="mw-redirect" title="The San Francisco Chronicle">The San Francisco Chronicle</a> (<a href="/wiki/Charles_de_Young" title="Charles de Young">Charles de Young</a>) over the claims against his father so I can't imagine that they wouldn't be mentioned in any legitimate biography. <a href="/wiki/User:Horse_Eye%27s_Back" title="User:Horse Eye's Back">Horse Eye's Back</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Horse_Eye%27s_Back" title="User talk:Horse Eye's Back">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20250130002800-Peter_G_Werner-20250129030800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:28, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I haven't checked sources, but the articles state the shooting was in 1884 and the article published in 1900, so it wouldn't have been that particular claim. I'd be inclined to edit the section down to a more Wikipedian style, and change the section title to "Allegations of blackbirding" as what is described there sounds more like <a href="/wiki/Blackbirding" title="Blackbirding">Blackbirding</a> than slavery as it was practiced in the continental USA. Which isn't to say it's not slavery, but that it's a specific type of slavery. <a href="/wiki/User:Daveosaurus" title="User:Daveosaurus">Daveosaurus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Daveosaurus" title="User talk:Daveosaurus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Daveosaurus-20250130014400-Horse_Eye's_Back-20250130002800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:44, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Oh its certainly a different incident, but I think the underlying claim (that Spreckels uses unfree labor on his plantations) is the same... So this isn't just one thing that happened in 1900 its decades of stuff which should show up in the biographies (even if to say that the claims were blown out of proportion). <a href="/wiki/User:Horse_Eye%27s_Back" title="User:Horse Eye's Back">Horse Eye's Back</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Horse_Eye%27s_Back" title="User talk:Horse Eye's Back">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20250130015500-Daveosaurus-20250130014400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:55, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>While Adolph B. Spreckels Sr. Wouldn’t ever say “here’s why I shot Mike de Young” in any credible way, this is all part of the lead up to the shooting.</dd> <dd>There were numerous, lengthy articles in various papers about Claus’s labor practices. I just linked to another on the talk page.</dd> <dd>The labor scandals though, were part of the years long lead up to the shooting.</dd> <dd>The shooting occurred 1 or 2 days after the chronicle published an account of an annual meeting where stockholders found out that their stock was worthless (or at least worth much less) on account of claus owning all the land, water infrastructure, etc. in Hawaii. The stockholders purchased stock at $60 or $65 with the understanding the company owned the assets and claus finally revealed the company had to take out a loan to pay for its losses. Turns out claus himself owned all the assets and the company was paying for the privilege to use them. <a href="/wiki/User:Delectopierre" title="User:Delectopierre">Delectopierre</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Delectopierre" title="User talk:Delectopierre">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Delectopierre-20250130032900-Horse_Eye's_Back-20250130015500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:29, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>I think adding that he had slaves via blackbirding is helpful. <a href="/wiki/User:Delectopierre" title="User:Delectopierre">Delectopierre</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Delectopierre" title="User talk:Delectopierre">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Delectopierre-20250130044800-Daveosaurus-20250130014400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:48, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>It's...sort of mentioned in the 2024 biography. Even that's generous, and I don't believe the author seriously engaged with the source material as there are logical errors in her account. <a href="/wiki/Talk:Claus_Spreckels#c-Delectopierre-20250129053400-Peter_G_Werner-20250129024900" title="Talk:Claus Spreckels">See this comment.</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Delectopierre" title="User:Delectopierre">Delectopierre</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Delectopierre" title="User talk:Delectopierre">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Delectopierre-20250130061900-Horse_Eye's_Back-20250130002800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:19, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Okay, here's yet another source. This time available via the wikipedia library. Emphasis mine. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/login?auth=production&url=https://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=a9h&AN=45974332&site=eds-live&scope=site">2000: 100 Years of Borinquen in Hawai`i, Centro Journal, April 1, 2001.</a></dd> <dd>Camacho Souza (1984: 167) describes the harsh reality of the boricua newcomers to Hawai‘i with an appropriate phrase: “trabajo y tristeza” (work and sorrow). Carr (1989:185, 366) suggests that early boricua immigrants considered themselves slaves for good reason: their contract prohibited them from freely moving from one plantation to another and the all-powerful owner could sell their contracts to another plantation without consent. The plantation manager was the ultimate authority in their lives and the “lunas” (supervisors) ruled with impunity, often treating workers abusively. Don Carlos reflects on these conditions in the poem “Despierta, pueblo dormido” with phrases such as “la prisión que te esclaviza”; “la cárcel de la pobreza”; “el yugo que le esclaviza”; “el esclavista tirano.”4 Like many other leaders that emerge from the upper classes, it is not surprising that Fraticelli was outraged by the inhuman treatment of his fellow countrymen since he was not accustomed to being treated abusively. <a href="/wiki/User:Delectopierre" title="User:Delectopierre">Delectopierre</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Delectopierre" title="User talk:Delectopierre">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Delectopierre-20250130080000-Peter_G_Werner-20250129030800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:00, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I doubt this clears a path to calling Spreckels a slave owner in the lead, but it seems a good candidate for the section in the body as long as it keeps the attribution, "Carr suggested that early boricua immigrants considered themselves slaves." <a href="/wiki/User:Darknipples" title="User:Darknipples">DN</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Darknipples" title="User talk:Darknipples">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Darknipples-20250130090200-Delectopierre-20250130080000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:02, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>That seems reasonable. <a href="/wiki/User:Delectopierre" title="User:Delectopierre">Delectopierre</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Delectopierre" title="User talk:Delectopierre">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Delectopierre-20250130175100-Darknipples-20250130090200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:51, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="Arbitrary_Break" data-mw-thread-id="h-Arbitrary_Break-Claus_Spreckels:_Accusations_of_slave_ownership-20250130041100">Arbitrary Break</h3>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Arbitrary Break">edit</a>]</div> per <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369183X.2020.1774115?casa_token=2M-W7ash1xoAAAAA%3ApAB61lhD0yScEBJH0XTUQ9obcnbG_he_1iEQMt4IvspZ-nItJqDrr7pS_wDZ92gJbHvQzbLhDtjy#d1e571">[14]</a>, it seems to indicate that the term “slave” was regularly thrown around, especially with regards to ethnic minorities. I don’t think NYTime source can be dismissed unless there is factual evidence to prove it was a fabrication, but was this a case where the word in the paper changed meaning? <a href="/wiki/User:Bluethricecreamman" title="User:Bluethricecreamman">Bluethricecreamman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bluethricecreamman" title="User talk:Bluethricecreamman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250130041100-Arbitrary_Break" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:11, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I don't have access to that article, and it doesn't appear that wikipedia library provides it. Are you able to provide the relevant section?</dd> <dd>This article (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.ezproxy.sfpl.org/login?url=https://www.proquest.com/hnpuswest/historical-newspapers/december-13-1900-page-1-14/docview/2132343929/sem-2?accountid=35117">Page 1</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.ezproxy.sfpl.org/login?url=https://www.proquest.com/hnpuswest/historical-newspapers/december-13-1900-page-2-14/docview/2132345629/sem-2?accountid=35117">Page 2</a>) in the SF Examiner also refers to them as slaves. It then provides interviews with two of the Puerto Ricans who confirm they were tricked, one confirms they were not paid as they were promised, and wishes to return home. The other details how they're not free to speak to outsiders while on the train.</dd> <dd>Selection from interview 1:</dd> <dd>Q.-What are your wishes? A.-That I be at liberty to depart at pleasure. I do not wish to go to Hawaii. No writing has been given to me, and I do not wish to live where Spanish ways and Spanish language are not.</dd> <dd>Q.But it has cost much money to convey you hither. What of that? A.-I have thought of it, senor. But it is not by the truth that I am here, and if truth had been said to me no money need have been expended in my case. But as it is, if the laws of the Americans are so, then I will work for whatever time is need to earn the money to pay back the cost for me and afterward I shall return to Porto Rico.</dd> <dd>Q.-Are you willing to do this work in Hawaii? A.-No, senor; not for the persons who have spoken falsely. But elsewhere and for others, yes. I do not wish to go further from Porto Rico unless I can where true words are spoken and I can be understood.</dd> <dd>While the term may have been thrown around, I don't see how this can be seen as anything but slavery. <a href="/wiki/User:Delectopierre" title="User:Delectopierre">Delectopierre</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Delectopierre" title="User talk:Delectopierre">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Delectopierre-20250130044600-Bluethricecreamman-20250130041100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:46, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>This Q and A reads more like a PRIMARY source than NYT. On top of that, it is not explicitly stated that they are a slave, or that Spreckels is a slave owner. <a href="/wiki/User:Darknipples" title="User:Darknipples">DN</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Darknipples" title="User talk:Darknipples">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Darknipples-20250130054500-Delectopierre-20250130044600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:45, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I agree with both points you make. I realize now that I forgot to include the part of the article where it says the word slave. Doh!</dd> <dd>From earlier in that article: <dl><dd><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1244412712">.mw-parser-output .templatequote{overflow:hidden;margin:1em 0;padding:0 32px}.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{line-height:1.5em;text-align:left;margin-top:0}@media(min-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{padding-left:1.6em}}</style><blockquote class="templatequote"></blockquote></dd> <dd>AFRAID OF PUBLICITY</dd> <dd>The slave traders are afraid of publicity.</dd> <dd>"Things done well and with a care, exempt themselves from fear": but here there is a palpable shrinking from the digest, and the speed of a Southern Pacific locomotive is apparently depended upon as their principal protection from further inquiry.</dd> <dd></dd></dl></dd> <dd>The context as that this article is written as a dispatch from Indio CA. The headline is RECORD-BREAKING RUN TO BE MADE BY EXILE TRAIN and it's an update to the ongoing story of the Puerto Ricans being trafficked. This particular dispatch is about how the trains will attempt a record breaking speed from Indio to Oakland so that they can get them onto the steamer Rio de Janeiro with no down time after arriving in Oakland such that they might escape. <a href="/wiki/User:Delectopierre" title="User:Delectopierre">Delectopierre</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Delectopierre" title="User talk:Delectopierre">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Delectopierre-20250130061400-Darknipples-20250130054500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:14, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I see. Unfortunately I do not have access to it. <a href="/wiki/User:Darknipples" title="User:Darknipples">DN</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Darknipples" title="User talk:Darknipples">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Darknipples-20250130061700-Delectopierre-20250130061400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:17, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>There's no way for me to upload a PDF, right? <a href="/wiki/User:Delectopierre" title="User:Delectopierre">Delectopierre</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Delectopierre" title="User talk:Delectopierre">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Delectopierre-20250130061900-Darknipples-20250130061700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:19, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I don't believe so, that likely goes into <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OR">WP:OR</a> territory. <a href="/wiki/User:Darknipples" title="User:Darknipples">DN</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Darknipples" title="User talk:Darknipples">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Darknipples-20250130085500-Delectopierre-20250130061900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:55, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>First that’s what I thought about pdfs. Second, though, do you OR for PDFs in general, or specifically this instance? Because I wanted to share the SF Chronicle article. <a href="/wiki/User:Delectopierre" title="User:Delectopierre">Delectopierre</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Delectopierre" title="User talk:Delectopierre">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Delectopierre-20250130175400-Darknipples-20250130085500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:54, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Artur_Granz" data-mw-thread-id="h-Artur_Granz-20250129172900"><a href="/wiki/Artur_Granz" title="Artur Granz">Artur Granz</a></h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Artur Granz">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> I would like to request advice about this article. I have watchlisted it because I saw it had been edited by a sock from a large UPE sock group. Since then, IPs have repeatedly tried to remove the "Controversy" section without any explanation. I have repeatedly reverted them and asked for an explanation, but the only response I have ever got was saying that I was a sock and spreaded "black pr". I alone am not sure whether the "Controversy" section is neutral, as I know nothing about reliability of Ukrainian newspapers, and it does make some tenuous claims. But removing it completely is certainly wrong, especially without giving any reason, because many sources (Just search the internet for his name.) seem to cover a sort of controversy related to him. I would greatly appreciate some help about this situation. <a href="/wiki/User:Janhrach" title="User:Janhrach">Janhrach</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Janhrach" title="User talk:Janhrach">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Janhrach-20250129172900-Artur_Granz" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:29, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Janhrach" title="User:Janhrach">Janhrach</a>, I checked the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://fakty.ua/ru/429911-vladelcy-ukrainskogo-i-rossijskogo-forbes-mogli-zaklyuchit-pakt-o-nenapadenii-do-vojny---politolog">first citation</a> in the <a href="/wiki/Artur_Granz#Schemes_in_Boryspil_Airport" title="Artur Granz">Artur_Granz#Schemes_in_Boryspil_Airport</a> section and it says literally nothing about the Boryspil airport. In addition to that the whole Controversy section is written in a non-neutral and non-encyclopaedic style, I believe that <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:TNT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:TNT">WP:TNT</a> is the best solution here.</dd> <dd>Some sources, like <a href="/wiki/Ukrainska_Pravda" title="Ukrainska Pravda">Ukrainska Pravda</a> are okay, but someone will have to check that they are cited faithfully and it may be easier just to start the whole thing anew. <a href="/wiki/User:Alaexis" title="User:Alaexis">Alaexis</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Alaexis" title="User talk:Alaexis">¿question?</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Alaexis-20250130222600-Janhrach-20250129172900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:26, 30 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Alaexis" title="User:Alaexis">Alaexis</a>: Thank you, I removed the section. If you think the article should TNTed as a whole, then please go ahead. <a href="/wiki/User:Janhrach" title="User:Janhrach">Janhrach</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Janhrach" title="User talk:Janhrach">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Janhrach-20250131141900-Alaexis-20250130222600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:19, 31 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Alleged?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Alleged?-20250129192700">Alleged?</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Alleged?">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> If a non-"white" person is alleged to have committed a crime in 1912 in the United States, should Wikipedia act as if they definitely did it? It feels weird that <a href="/wiki/Virginia_Christian" title="Virginia Christian">Virginia Christian</a> calls her a criminal, while we have no reliable sources (I wouldn't describe contemporary sources as reliable) to base that on. And the article says <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Belote is alleged to have mistreated and abused Christian</q> which is even weirder. We can use alleged for one side but not the other? A non-"white" person in 1912 in the United States would not get a fair trial right? Especially a minor (16) from a poor family. And neither would a "white" person from a poor family. Or a rich person, but for different reasons. <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Polygnotus-20250129192700-Alleged?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:27, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I don't understand your post. Christian was convicted and executed. Are there sources that suggest that she was innocent? <a href="/wiki/User:Schazjmd" title="User:Schazjmd">Schazjmd</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Schazjmd" title="User talk:Schazjmd">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Schazjmd-20250129215700-Polygnotus-20250129192700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:57, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>No, we don't have reliable sources that say that she was innocent. We also don't have reliable source that say she was guilty. That is the problem. <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Polygnotus-20250129220000-Schazjmd-20250129215700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:00, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Have you tried editing the article to achieve what you think is more appropriate wording to comply with NPOV? <a href="/wiki/User:Schazjmd" title="User:Schazjmd">Schazjmd</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Schazjmd" title="User talk:Schazjmd">(talk)</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Schazjmd-20250129223100-Polygnotus-20250129220000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:31, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Not yet, I noticed the problem while waiting for the train. I am also unsure what the convention is in cases like this. There are of course many people who are convicted under questionable circumstances, and some countries have famously corrupt and otherwise flawed judicical systems. <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Polygnotus-20250129223500-Schazjmd-20250129223100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:35, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>It sounds like she was charged and tried on those crimes, and phrasing it like that does not lend to whether we state in wiki voice if she did or didn't do it, allegedly or not, only that the judge found her guilty and sentenced her to death. <a href="/wiki/User:Masem" title="User:Masem">Masem</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Masem" title="User talk:Masem">t</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Masem-20250129224300-Polygnotus-20250129223500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:43, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Masem" title="User:Masem">Masem</a>: Exactly. So <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virginia_Christian&diff=1272707516&oldid=1262619065">this</a> is an improvement, right? <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Polygnotus-20250129224700-Masem-20250129224300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:47, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Yes, there's changes elsewhere that could be maee. I don't know if it is possible to include an analysis or similar section that exposes the doubt and concerns over her trial (that it seemed unfair) but that would help why softer language is used. Eg, she might be a criminal by the legal process but if history treats her far more fairly with doubt to the situation, that should be explained. — <a href="/wiki/User:Masem" title="User:Masem">Masem</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Masem" title="User talk:Masem">t</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Masem-20250129234600-Polygnotus-20250129224700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:46, 29 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Yasuke_samurai_status" data-mw-thread-id="h-Yasuke_samurai_status-20250131040200">Yasuke samurai status</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Yasuke samurai status">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1250141580">.mw-parser-output .archive-top{background-color:#EDEAFF;color:inherit;padding:0 0.6em;border:1px solid #8779DD}.mw-parser-output .archive-top-result .side-box-abovebelow{background-color:#c3c3c3;color:inherit;text-align:center;font-size:110%;font-weight:bold}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .archive-top{background-color:#181424;border:1px solid #8072d6;color:#fff}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .archive-top-result .side-box-abovebelow{background-color:#141126;color:#fff}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .archive-top{background-color:#181424;border:1px solid #8072d6;color:#fff}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .archive-top-result .side-box-abovebelow{background-color:#141126;color:#fff}}@media(min-width:640px){.mw-parser-output .archive-top-result{width:30%}}</style><div class="boilerplate archived archive-top mw-archivedtalk" style=""><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1235681985">.mw-parser-output .side-box{margin:4px 0;box-sizing:border-box;border:1px solid #aaa;font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em;background-color:var(--background-color-interactive-subtle,#f8f9fa);display:flow-root}.mw-parser-output .side-box-abovebelow,.mw-parser-output .side-box-text{padding:0.25em 0.9em}.mw-parser-output .side-box-image{padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .side-box-imageright{padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}@media(min-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .side-box-flex{display:flex;align-items:center}.mw-parser-output .side-box-text{flex:1;min-width:0}}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .side-box{width:238px}.mw-parser-output .side-box-right{clear:right;float:right;margin-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .side-box-left{margin-right:1em}}</style><div class="side-box metadata side-box-right archive-top-result" style="padding: 10px; line-height: inherit;"> <div class="side-box-flex"> <div class="side-box-text" style="padding: 0;">We've had this convo multiple times. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke#Prior_dispute_resolution" title="Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke">Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke#Prior_dispute_resolution</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Bluethricecreamman" title="User:Bluethricecreamman">Bluethricecreamman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bluethricecreamman" title="User talk:Bluethricecreamman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250131041900-Yasuke_samurai_status" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:19, 31 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</div></div> </div> <div class="boilerplate-header" style="margin-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic;"> The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. </div> <hr/> On <a href="/wiki/Yasuke" title="Yasuke">Yasuke</a> article, there was disagreement between <a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren">Silver seren</a> and me (or perhaps <a href="/wiki/User:RelmC" title="User:RelmC">RelmC</a>) about placing Yasuke's samurai assertations. On this article, there has been long dispute whether Yasuke was a samurai or not. Particularly, "As a samurai" phrase in the lede has been modified/reverted frequently. It often has been pointed out that "samurai" word is not seen in primary source. However, in the current lede, it is described as if "samurai" word can be seen in "historical accounts" by "As a samurai, he was granted a sword". I also noticed that the other 2 samurai assertation are in "Documented life in Japan". Clearly, they are not (historically) "documented" ones, either. I decided to move samurai assertations into a new section, but this edit was reverted. Any edits about Yasuke's samurai status repetedly has been reverted by "against consensus" or "no consensus". It would be impossible to resolve this conflict on talk page. Although it is short after this edit war has started, I request this help. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NakajKak&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NakajKak (page does not exist)">NakajKak</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NakajKak" title="User talk:NakajKak">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NakajKak-20250131040200-Yasuke_samurai_status" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:02, 31 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] Sorry for adding comment, but this edit conflict is not whether Yasuke was a samurai or not, but how the information should be placed. — Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NakajKak&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NakajKak (page does not exist)">NakajKak</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NakajKak#top" title="User talk:NakajKak">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/NakajKak" title="Special:Contributions/NakajKak">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NakajKak-20250131042500-Yasuke_samurai_status" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:25, 31 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Unfortunately other people have already spent way too much time and effort talking about this topic. So we don't want to talk about it anymore. Sorry. So please drop it, thank you. <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Polygnotus-20250131075600-NakajKak-20250131042500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:56, 31 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Sorry for bothering you repetedly for this topic, but I guess this conflict would not take so much time. If someone here could state such that "historian's analysis cannot be described as if it were written in historical records", it would be resolved immidiately. I think this is a specific version of "Avoid stating opinions as facts" of npov. Let me explain the problem briefly.</dd> <dd>First, "whether Yasuke was a sumurai or not" is historian's opinions, and not something that is written in hiscorical records. In Britanica article <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.britannica.com/biography/Yasuke">"Yasuke"</a>, which is probably most cited in the article, it is said as following,</dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1244412712"><blockquote class="templatequote">Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians to be the first recorded “samurai” of foreign birth, although this has been disputed by some people</blockquote></dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1244412712"><blockquote class="templatequote">Ōta states that Nobunaga made Yasuke a vassal, giving him a house, servants, a sword, and a stipend. During this period, the definition of samurai was ambiguous, but historians think that this would contemporaneously have been seen as the bestowing of warrior or “samurai” rank. This is where the claim that Yasuke was a samurai originates.</blockquote></dd> <dd>However, in wikipedia article <a href="/wiki/Yasuke" title="Yasuke">Yasuke</a>, the opinion is described as if it were written in historical records as following,</dd> <dd>(in the lede)</dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1244412712"><blockquote class="templatequote">According to historical accounts, ... As a samurai, he was granted a sword, a house and a stipend....There are no subsequent records of his life.</blockquote></dd> <dd>("Documented life in Japan" section)</dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1244412712"><blockquote class="templatequote">...and made him the first recorded foreigner to receive the rank of samurai.</blockquote></dd> <dd>I think if this point is evaluated by this noticeboard, the most dispute will be resolved soon. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:NakajKak&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:NakajKak (page does not exist)">NakajKak</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:NakajKak" title="User talk:NakajKak">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-NakajKak-20250201045400-Polygnotus-20250131075600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:54, 1 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I am sorry. We do not care. Other people have already spent way too much time and effort talking about this topic. We don't want to talk about it anymore. Please stop talking about this subject. Thank you. <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Polygnotus-20250201045500-NakajKak-20250201045400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:55, 1 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div> </div><div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Lumi_(currency)" data-mw-thread-id="h-Lumi_(currency)-20250131074400"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Lumi_(currency)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Lumi (currency) (page does not exist)">Lumi (currency)</a></h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Lumi (currency)">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> I just removed the article from <a href="/wiki/Category:Currencies_of_Africa" title="Category:Currencies of Africa">Currencies of Africa</a> and <a href="/wiki/Category:Circulating_currencies" title="Category:Circulating currencies">Circulating currencies</a> for being an obvious <a href="/wiki/Private_currency" title="Private currency">private currency</a>, but right from the lead the article seems to be a very serious case of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PROMOTION" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PROMOTION">WP:PROMOTION</a>. The only usable source I have on file is <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/business/20210411/boj-warns-against-lumi-again">https://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/business/20210411/boj-warns-against-lumi-again</a>, which tells a completely different story. So I think I need more than myself to see what can be salvaged from the article since I am currently working on improving the new Athens Suburban Railway line articles. --<a href="/wiki/User:Minoa" title="User:Minoa">Minoa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Minoa" title="User talk:Minoa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Minoa-20250131074400-Lumi_(currency)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:44, 31 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Is it notable when no one other than a handful of believers have reported on its existence? <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Polygnotus-20250131080200-Minoa-20250131074400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:02, 31 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I might also consider <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20191213105200/https://www.jamaicaobserver.com/front-page/maroons-queen-must-pay-say-monarch-has-breached-1738-peace-treaty-demand-end-to-bauxite-mining-in-cockpit-country_175064">this archived source</a>, but it looks like it is either not notable, or it should be repositioned as another variant of the <a href="/wiki/Redemption_movement" title="Redemption movement">redemption movement</a> that takes place mostly in Jamaica. --<a href="/wiki/User:Minoa" title="User:Minoa">Minoa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Minoa" title="User talk:Minoa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Minoa-20250131105000-Polygnotus-20250131080200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:50, 31 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Well at least it was fun to see the local chief <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Timothy_E._McPherson_Jr.&diff=prev&oldid=1013982449">state</a> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">I Chief Richard Currie do hereby Declare that the Trelawny Town Maroons of The Sovereign State of Accompong unequivocally and unreservedly distances themselves from <a href="/wiki/Timothy_E._McPherson_Jr." title="Timothy E. McPherson Jr.">Timothy McPherson</a></q>. I do like the idea of inventing a currency and then immediately handing out a <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.modernghana.com/news/1061007/the-birth-of-the-lumi-an-introduction.html">6 trillion dollar stimulus package</a>. They claim that each LUMI is worth 100Kwh of solar energy so that stimulus package is probably backed by a secret Dyson sphere. <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Polygnotus-20250131151200-Minoa-20250131074400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:12, 31 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> <dl><dd>Yo @<a href="/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare" title="User:GorillaWarfare">GorillaWarfare</a>: Now that every web3 scam has been tried in the western world they are trying to find new targets. It looks like the underlying scam is something called <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://news.cision.com/reltime-as/r/swifin-unveils-new-app-connecting-africa-to-the-global-digital-economy,c4089176">Swifin</a> which is "built on" Reltime. They appear to be handing out money (fake or real) to set up silly currencies. Should I just nominate <a href="/w/index.php?title=Lumi_(currency)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Lumi (currency) (page does not exist)">Lumi (currency)</a> for deletion? It appears to be a CBDC without a (real) bank. And a stimulus fund of 6 trillion USD without the 6 trillion USD, which they think they can fix by <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://connect.swifin.com/docs/conversion/when-will-the-next-akl-stimulus-payment-be-made/">handing</a> out fake money and <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://connect.swifin.com/docs/conversion/why-should-i-keep-my-balance-in-akl-instead-of-converting/">pretending</a> its worth <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://connect.swifin.com/docs/access-channels/where-can-i-use-lumi-akl/">real</a> money. The Central Solar Reserve Bank of Accompong does not exist and the African Diaspora Central Bank is just some guy. <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Polygnotus-20250131221900-Minoa-20250131074400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:19, 31 January 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>May require a {{<a href="/wiki/Template:Db-hoax" title="Template:Db-hoax">db-hoax</a>}} given the apparent fabrications. <a href="/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare" title="User:GorillaWarfare">GorillaWarfare</a> (she/her • <a href="/wiki/User_talk:GorillaWarfare" title="User talk:GorillaWarfare">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-GorillaWarfare-20250201202900-Polygnotus-20250131221900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:29, 1 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I don't know how far Timothy McPherson is involved in the Lumi, but I would consider tagging Lumi for deletion and have someone uninvolved rewriting <a href="/wiki/Timothy_E._McPherson_Jr." title="Timothy E. McPherson Jr.">Timothy E. McPherson Jr.</a> from scratch to address what looks like serious COI issues. Thoughts? --<a href="/wiki/User:Minoa" title="User:Minoa">Minoa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Minoa" title="User talk:Minoa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Minoa-20250201205800-GorillaWarfare-20250201202900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:58, 1 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Minoa" title="User:Minoa">Minoa</a> and <a href="/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare" title="User:GorillaWarfare">GorillaWarfare</a>: I have nominated <a href="/w/index.php?title=Lumi_(currency)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Lumi (currency) (page does not exist)">Lumi (currency)</a> for deletion. Someone should probably also nominate <a href="/wiki/Timothy_E._McPherson_Jr." title="Timothy E. McPherson Jr.">Timothy E. McPherson Jr.</a> and check out <a href="/wiki/User:Spiddyock" title="User:Spiddyock">User:Spiddyock</a>'s contributions. <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Polygnotus-20250201223700-Minoa-20250201205800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:37, 1 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>User <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Leviathan1619&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Leviathan1619 (page does not exist)">Leviathan1619</a> may have also been involved in making promotional edits according to <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lumi_(currency)&oldid=1223622160">this edit</a> (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20250204131618/https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lumi_(currency)&diff=prev&oldid=1223622160">archived</a>). In <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Lumi_(currency)" title="Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lumi (currency)">Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lumi (currency)</a>, the user still makes the false claim of the "lumi" being a "regional currency" issued by some made-up central bank that the African Union probably never heard. --<a href="/wiki/User:Minoa" title="User:Minoa">Minoa</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Minoa" title="User talk:Minoa">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Minoa-20250206064000-Polygnotus-20250201223700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:40, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="At_all_times" data-mw-thread-id="h-At_all_times-20250202132700">At all times</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: At all times">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <a href="/wiki/Italic" class="mw-disambig" title="Italic">Italic</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2001:16A4:30:1899:2:1:E7B7:F2BE" title="Special:Contributions/2001:16A4:30:1899:2:1:E7B7:F2BE">2001:16A4:30:1899:2:1:E7B7:F2BE</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2001:16A4:30:1899:2:1:E7B7:F2BE&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2001:16A4:30:1899:2:1:E7B7:F2BE (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-2001:16A4:30:1899:2:1:E7B7:F2BE-20250202132700-At_all_times" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:27, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>What? <a href="/wiki/User:Slatersteven" title="User:Slatersteven">Slatersteven</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Slatersteven" title="User talk:Slatersteven">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Slatersteven-20250202132900-2001:16A4:30:1899:2:1:E7B7:F2BE-20250202132700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:29, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Trump_bankruptcy" data-mw-thread-id="h-Trump_bankruptcy-20250202165100">Trump bankruptcy</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: Trump bankruptcy">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/jun/21/hillary-clinton/yep-donald-trumps-companies-have-declared-bankrupt/">A 2016 piece in PolitiFact</a> fact checked a comment on Trump being responsible for six business bankruptcies. In the piece, they confirmed he had six bankruptcies up to that point, while emphasizing: <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Experts told us during the primary season Trump alone didn’t cause the bankruptcies. While six in 25 years is a lot, five were tied to a struggling gaming industry. Trump was acting, they said, as any investor would.</q> The <a href="/wiki/Donald_Trump#Business_career" title="Donald Trump">Business career</a> section of <a href="/wiki/Donald_Trump" title="Donald Trump">Donald Trump</a> devotes a lot of words, in addition to a separate section discussing his bankruptcies in this period. In addition to the information on bankruptcies in the article, is an attributed mention of the business context (a struggling gaming industry) DUE per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:YESPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:YESPOV">WP:YESPOV</a>? Some prior discussion <a href="/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_188#Continuing_discussion_on_bankruptcy" title="Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 188">here</a>. To summarise: editors thought we were giving Trump special treatment by including this, a separate point was made on the bankruptcy section understating his bankruptcies, some points on Trump being incompetent in this period to contest that he was acting "as any investor would". A claim was made contesting that the gaming industry was struggling in this period (this was not sourced). Pinging editors in that discussion <a href="/wiki/User:Slatersteven" title="User:Slatersteven">Slatersteven</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Space4Time3Continuum2x" title="User:Space4Time3Continuum2x">Space4Time3Continuum2x</a> and <a href="/wiki/User:Objective3000" title="User:Objective3000">Objective3000</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User:Rollinginhisgrave">Rollinginhisgrave</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User talk:Rollinginhisgrave">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20250202165100-Trump_bankruptcy" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:51, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>So do we make this point on any other pages about bankrupts? <a href="/wiki/User:Slatersteven" title="User:Slatersteven">Slatersteven</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Slatersteven" title="User talk:Slatersteven">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Slatersteven-20250202165500-Rollinginhisgrave-20250202165100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:55, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I don't know. I don't know if other pages about bankruptcies have sources emphasizing economic conditions. If they do, I would support such inclusion to reflect weighting of RS. If they don't, I don't. <a href="/wiki/User:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User:Rollinginhisgrave">Rollinginhisgrave</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User talk:Rollinginhisgrave">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20250202170300-Slatersteven-20250202165500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:03, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Mike_Tyson" title="Mike Tyson">Mike Tyson</a>, nope we just say filed, <a href="/wiki/Elizabeth_Holmes" title="Elizabeth Holmes">Elizabeth Holmes</a>, nope we just say Bankrupt, OK so, no we do not. <a href="/wiki/User:Slatersteven" title="User:Slatersteven">Slatersteven</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Slatersteven" title="User talk:Slatersteven">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Slatersteven-20250202181300-Rollinginhisgrave-20250202170300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:13, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Do you understand my point on reflecting sourcing? <a href="/wiki/User:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User:Rollinginhisgrave">Rollinginhisgrave</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User talk:Rollinginhisgrave">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20250202181500-Slatersteven-20250202181300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:15, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Do you understand that WE do not treat anyone any differently from anyone else, its called NPOV? <a href="/wiki/User:Slatersteven" title="User:Slatersteven">Slatersteven</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Slatersteven" title="User talk:Slatersteven">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Slatersteven-20250203123000-Rollinginhisgrave-20250202181500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:30, 3 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>That's not what NPOV means. Such a comment can only be true if identical sourcing existed for two subjects and we then proceed to treat them differently. <a href="/wiki/User:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User:Rollinginhisgrave">Rollinginhisgrave</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User talk:Rollinginhisgrave">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20250203132000-Slatersteven-20250203123000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:20, 3 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I disagree, we treat all subjects the same, if we have a source that explains away one subject's actions but not another that may well just be biased on the part of the one source "making excuses". <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Undue" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Undue">wp:undue</a> also comes into it, why is it "exceptional" in this person's case (which it does not seem to be as the claim seems to be it is standard practice). Indeed if it is "standard practice" this should be included in the article about bankruptcy, and not just on any one bankrupts page, and then we only need to link to the article. But this is my last word, as this is beginning to look like <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Bludgeoning" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Bludgeoning">wp:bludgeoning</a>, <a href="/wiki/User:Slatersteven" title="User:Slatersteven">Slatersteven</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Slatersteven" title="User talk:Slatersteven">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Slatersteven-20250203141700-Rollinginhisgrave-20250203132000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:17, 3 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>No worries if you don't want to continue replying. I'll leave some points here, and if other editors can/want to help me with understanding Steven's points I might be missing or NPOV more generally, reply here or on my talk page. Some things I don't see mentioned in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a>: <ul><li>When non-identical sourcing exists, we should treat subjects the same regardless</li> <li>Material is excluded where bias can explain content even when no evidence for bias exists</li> <li>Material must "exceptionally" apply to a subject to be DUE (might be misunderstanding this one)</li></ul></dd> <dd>Thanks, <a href="/wiki/User:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User:Rollinginhisgrave">Rollinginhisgrave</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User talk:Rollinginhisgrave">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20250203160900-Slatersteven-20250203141700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:09, 3 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Slatersteven" title="User:Slatersteven"></a>I've reread my comment from yesterday; it comes off as patronising/snarky, which I didn't intend. If you read it in that tone, I'm sorry, you seem like a smart and experienced editor and I'm not talking down to you. And if you didn't, ignore this message. <a href="/wiki/User:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User:Rollinginhisgrave">Rollinginhisgrave</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User talk:Rollinginhisgrave">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20250203135600-Slatersteven-20250203123000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:56, 3 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>There's quite a lot of media coverage of Trump's history and his connection to bankruptcy of his businesses. With massively more detail than this Politifact article gives. I'm not sure if a single article with a claim like that is good enough to even acknowledge. Furthermore, the article claiming "Experts" seems overblown, since within the article, it appears commentary was given solely by Adam Levitin. There are plenty of other law professors and experts quoted in other sources with the exact opposite opinion. So in terms of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DUE">WP:DUE</a>, how much strength should we give to this one opinion? <a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren">Silver</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Silver_seren" title="User talk:Silver seren">seren</a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Silver_seren" title="Special:Contributions/Silver seren">C</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Silver_seren-20250202170600-Rollinginhisgrave-20250202165100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:06, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Thanks <a href="/wiki/User:Silver_seren" title="User:Silver seren">Silver seren</a>. My thinking was the weighting was justified by virtue of multiple experts being cited, and a consensus among them. As in how a meta-analysis is one source, but it's summarizing that of multiple sources and thus deserves more weight.</dd> <dd>I didn't read that the commentary was solely by Adam Levitin, but that he was quoted as representative; I find it strange to not believe the source that multiple experts quoted this. I also haven't seen experts in other sources quoting the inverse. Anyway, thankyou for opining, I'll leave this here, and if you read what I say and disagree, I'll drop the matter. <a href="/wiki/User:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User:Rollinginhisgrave">Rollinginhisgrave</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User talk:Rollinginhisgrave">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20250202171100-Silver_seren-20250202170600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:11, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd> <dd>Some background: <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-05-18/trump-business-partners-outline-his-failed-deals">[15]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://news.temple.edu/news/2016-10-25/bankruptcy-expert-studies-trump-casinos">[16]</a><a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/debtwire/2015/08/18/a-trip-down-donald-trumps-bankruptcy-memory-lane/">[17]</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Objective3000" title="User:Objective3000">O3000, Ret.</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Objective3000" title="User talk:Objective3000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Objective3000-20250202171200-Rollinginhisgrave-20250202165100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:12, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>You're bringing this to the NPOV Noticeboard? This is what the article's <a href="/wiki/Donald_Trump#Real_estate" title="Donald Trump">Donald Trump#Real estate</a> and Real estate's subsections "Manhattan and Chicago developments" and "Atlantic City casinos" say about the bankruptcies:</dd> <dd><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237805129">.mw-parser-output .talkquote{color:var(--color-base,#202122);background-color:#eaf8f4;border-left:3px solid #008560;padding:0 .8em;margin:0}.mw-parser-output .talkquote-by,.mw-parser-output .talkquote-source{margin-left:1.6em}.mw-parser-output .skin-vector-2022 .talkquote>:last-child{padding-bottom:0}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .talkquote{background-color:#0d261f}}</style><blockquote class="talkquote">Between 1991 and 2009, he filed for <a href="/wiki/Chapter_11" class="mw-redirect" title="Chapter 11">Chapter 11</a> bankruptcy protection for six of his businesses: the <a href="/wiki/Plaza_Hotel" title="Plaza Hotel">Plaza Hotel</a> in Manhattan, the casinos in <a href="/wiki/Atlantic_City,_New_Jersey" title="Atlantic City, New Jersey">Atlantic City, New Jersey</a>, and the <a href="/wiki/Trump_Hotels_%26_Casino_Resorts" class="mw-redirect" title="Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts">Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts</a> company.<a href="#cite_note-1">[1]</a></blockquote></dd> <dd>Manhattan and Chicago developments:</dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"><blockquote class="talkquote">In 1988, Trump acquired the Plaza Hotel with a loan from a consortium of 16 banks.<a href="#cite_note-2">[2]</a> The hotel filed for bankruptcy protection in 1992, and a reorganization plan was approved a month later, with the banks taking control of the property.<a href="#cite_note-3">[3]</a> In 1995, he defaulted on over $3 billion of bank loans, and the lenders seized the Plaza Hotel along with most of his other properties in a "vast and humiliating restructuring" that allowed him to avoid personal bankruptcy.<a href="#cite_note-plaza-4">[4]</a><a href="#cite_note-5">[5]</a> The lead bank's attorney said of the banks' decision that they "all agreed that he'd be better alive than dead".<a href="#cite_note-plaza-4">[4]</a></blockquote></dd> <dd>Atlantic City casinos:</dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237805129"><blockquote class="talkquote">In 1984, Trump opened <a href="/wiki/Harrah%27s_at_Trump_Plaza" class="mw-redirect" title="Harrah's at Trump Plaza">Harrah's at Trump Plaza</a>, a hotel and casino, with financing and management help from the <a href="/wiki/Holiday_Corporation" class="mw-redirect" title="Holiday Corporation">Holiday Corporation</a>.<a href="#cite_note-fall-6">[6]</a> It was unprofitable, and he paid Holiday $70 million in May 1986 to take sole control.<a href="#cite_note-FOOTNOTEKranishFisher2017[httpsbooksgooglecombooksidx2jUDQAAQBAJpgPA128_128]-7">[7]</a> In 1985, he bought the unopened Atlantic City Hilton Hotel and renamed it <a href="/wiki/Trump_Castle" class="mw-redirect" title="Trump Castle">Trump Castle</a>.<a href="#cite_note-8">[8]</a> Both casinos filed for <a href="/wiki/Chapter_11" class="mw-redirect" title="Chapter 11">Chapter 11</a> bankruptcy protection in 1992.<a href="#cite_note-9">[9]</a> Trump bought a third Atlantic City venue in 1988, the <a href="/wiki/Trump_Taj_Mahal" class="mw-redirect" title="Trump Taj Mahal">Trump Taj Mahal</a>. It was financed with $675 million in <a href="/wiki/Junk_bonds" class="mw-redirect" title="Junk bonds">junk bonds</a> and completed for $1.1 billion, opening in April 1990.<a href="#cite_note-fall-6">[6]</a> He filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in 1991. Under the provisions of the restructuring agreement, he gave up half his initial stake and personally guaranteed future performance.<a href="#cite_note-10">[10]</a> ... In 1995, Trump founded Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts (THCR), which assumed ownership of the Trump Plaza.<a href="#cite_note-11">[11]</a> THCR purchased the Taj Mahal and the Trump Castle in 1996 and went bankrupt in 2004 and 2009, leaving him with 10 percent ownership.<a href="#cite_note-fall-6">[6]</a></blockquote> <a href="/wiki/User:Space4Time3Continuum2x" title="User:Space4Time3Continuum2x">Space4TCatHerder</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x" title="User talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x">🖖</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Space4Time3Continuum2x-20250202172900-Rollinginhisgrave-20250202165100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:29, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>The Talk page discussion that started this: <a href="/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_187#This_is_the_most_biased_article_in_the_entire_Wikipedia" title="Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 187">Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_187#This is the most biased article in the entire Wikipedia</a>, continued at: <a href="/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_188#Continuing_discussion_on_bankruptcy" title="Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 188">Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_188#Continuing discussion on bankruptcy</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Space4Time3Continuum2x" title="User:Space4Time3Continuum2x">Space4TCatHerder</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x" title="User talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x">🖖</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Space4Time3Continuum2x-20250202175500-Rollinginhisgrave-20250202165100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:55, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">This is the most biased article in the entire Wikipedia.</q> On how many articles have we seen this claim? <a href="/wiki/User:Objective3000" title="User:Objective3000">O3000, Ret.</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Objective3000" title="User talk:Objective3000">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Objective3000-20250202180400-Space4Time3Continuum2x-20250202175500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:04, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>See <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=%22most+biased+article%22&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns1=1&ns3=1&ns5=1&ns7=1&ns9=1&ns11=1&ns13=1&ns15=1&ns101=1&ns119=1&ns127=1&ns711=1&ns829=1">here</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Polygnotus-20250204080500-Objective3000-20250202180400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:05, 4 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd>As an uninvolved editor, I think it's reasonable to give the context if, and only if, there are multiple reliable sources for the context. As far as I can tell from here that's not true, there's only the one Politifact article on it. There's definitely plenty of sources on the bankruptcies themselves, so as far as I can tell the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WEIGHT" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WEIGHT">WP:WEIGHT</a> doesn't justify this, though I am very much convinceable if you can come up with more than just the one somewhat marginal source. <a href="/wiki/User:LokiTheLiar" title="User:LokiTheLiar">Loki</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LokiTheLiar" title="User talk:LokiTheLiar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-LokiTheLiar-20250206003000-Rollinginhisgrave-20250202165100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:30, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Thanks <a href="/wiki/User:LokiTheLiar" title="User:LokiTheLiar">Loki</a>. The lines I was thinking along was that each expert constituted a reliable source, and their plurality and consensus gave weight, along the same lines as a how a <a href="/wiki/Meta-analysis" title="Meta-analysis">meta-analysis</a> is not just "one" reliable source. It appears from the response here that such thinking is out of line with the community's approach, which is interesting and something to take on board. <a href="/wiki/User:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User:Rollinginhisgrave">Rollinginhisgrave</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User talk:Rollinginhisgrave">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20250206004200-LokiTheLiar-20250206003000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:42, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>A meta-analysis is one reliable source. It's one very reliable source, usually, but still only one source.</dd> <dd>Any source can say they contacted multiple experts, so the claim they contacted experts is not something we evaluate or give extra weight to. A meta-analysis isn't quite the same in that it necessarily involves multiple other studies, so we do treat them as extra reliable, but it's possible to do a bad meta-analysis by badly analyzing other studies, so a meta-analysis still doesn't override the overall weight of sources by itself. <a href="/wiki/User:LokiTheLiar" title="User:LokiTheLiar">Loki</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:LokiTheLiar" title="User talk:LokiTheLiar">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-LokiTheLiar-20250206005400-Rollinginhisgrave-20250206004200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:54, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/User:LokiTheLiar" title="User:LokiTheLiar">LokiTheLiar</a> (last ping) A meta-analysis is one reliable source, but the extra weight we give it I think shows that sources are not all equal and it's not simply a game of "there's only one PolitiFact article on it". Other (potentially more significant) considerations apply to weight.</dd> <dd>There's two reasons I understand meta-analysis are preferred over the sources they're summarizing: 1) they're secondary, 2) We want to assess the weight of sources, and they're doing that for us, with such weighting being peer reviewed. I think this is analogous (the writer is a secondary source reporting on the experts as primary sources, they're assessing the weight of the sources, and they have editorial control). The difference is that the sources a peer-reviewed paper is reviewing are <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Published" title="Wikipedia:Published">published</a>, which is certainly important for Wikipedia's sourcing purposes. I might ping @<a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a>: and hopefully get their thoughts on my thinking here.</dd> <dd>I am quite opposed to your point on "any source can say they contacted multiple experts", I'm not sure why this particular claim by a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GREL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GREL">WP:GREL</a> source is treated with such scepticism. Maybe you could elaborate. It is possible for a meta-analysis to badly analyse sources, I'm not an expert on where the line of OR there is in criticising elements of a meta-analysis. I would probably mark one down for reliability based on the journal, if there was other papers commenting negatively on the meta-analysis and if it contradicted other meta-analysis. Thanks again for weighing in here, I understand if you aren't interested in engaging further and appreciate what you've given thus far. <a href="/wiki/User:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User:Rollinginhisgrave">Rollinginhisgrave</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User talk:Rollinginhisgrave">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20250206011900-LokiTheLiar-20250206005400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:19, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>My main thought is that a meta-analysis involves a lot more structure and a lot more math than this source appears to have used.</dd> <dd>The bigger problem is that AIUI there are a lot of sources about Trump's business history, and if this is the only one that gives this explanation (and many of those also cited experts), then it ... just doesn't matter very much. If 99% of the sources about ____ don't bother trying to make excuses for _____, then neither should Wikipedia. That's true for Trump's bankruptcies or anything else.</dd> <dd>Your path forward, if you want to add this, is to find multiple sources that say the same/similar things. Without that, it's hard to believe that it is important. <a href="/wiki/User:WhatamIdoing" title="User:WhatamIdoing">WhatamIdoing</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:WhatamIdoing" title="User talk:WhatamIdoing">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-WhatamIdoing-20250206042900-Rollinginhisgrave-20250206011900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:29, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Deeply appreciated. <a href="/wiki/User:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User:Rollinginhisgrave">Rollinginhisgrave</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rollinginhisgrave" title="User talk:Rollinginhisgrave">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20250206043400-WhatamIdoing-20250206042900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:34, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> References <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239543626"><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap mw-references-columns"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-1"><a href="#cite_ref-1">^</a> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite id="CITEREFQiu2016" class="citation news cs1">Qiu, Linda (June 21, 2016). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/jun/21/hillary-clinton/yep-donald-trumps-companies-have-declared-bankrupt/">"Yep, Donald Trump's companies have declared bankruptcy...more than four times"</a>. <a href="/wiki/PolitiFact" title="PolitiFact">PolitiFact</a>. 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Retrieved May 25, 2023.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=The+New+York+Times&rft.atitle=Trump+Buys+Hilton%27s+Hotel+in+Atlantic+City&rft.date=1986-04-28&rft.aulast=Saxon&rft.aufirst=Wolfgang&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F1985%2F04%2F28%2Fnyregion%2Ftrump-buys-hilton-s-hotel-in-atlantic-city.html&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3ANeutral+point+of+view%2FNoticeboard" class="Z3988"> </li> <li id="cite_note-9"><a href="#cite_ref-9">^</a> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite class="citation news cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.upi.com/Archives/1992/03/09/Trumps-Castle-and-Plaza-file-for-bankruptcy/3105700117200/">"Trump's Castle and Plaza file for bankruptcy"</a>. <a href="/wiki/United_Press_International" title="United Press International">United Press International</a>. March 9, 1992. Retrieved May 25, 2023.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=United+Press+International&rft.atitle=Trump%27s+Castle+and+Plaza+file+for+bankruptcy&rft.date=1992-03-09&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.upi.com%2FArchives%2F1992%2F03%2F09%2FTrumps-Castle-and-Plaza-file-for-bankruptcy%2F3105700117200%2F&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3ANeutral+point+of+view%2FNoticeboard" class="Z3988"> </li> <li id="cite_note-10"><a href="#cite_ref-10">^</a> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite class="citation news cs1"><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/05/business/company-news-taj-mahal-is-out-of-bankruptcy.html">"Company News; Taj Mahal is out of Bankruptcy"</a>. <a href="/wiki/The_New_York_Times" title="The New York Times">The New York Times</a>. October 5, 1991. Retrieved May 22, 2008.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=The+New+York+Times&rft.atitle=Company+News%3B+Taj+Mahal+is+out+of+Bankruptcy&rft.date=1991-10-05&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F1991%2F10%2F05%2Fbusiness%2Fcompany-news-taj-mahal-is-out-of-bankruptcy.html&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3ANeutral+point+of+view%2FNoticeboard" class="Z3988"> </li> <li id="cite_note-11"><a href="#cite_ref-11">^</a> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFNorris1995" class="citation news cs1"><a href="/wiki/Floyd_Norris" title="Floyd Norris">Norris, Floyd</a> (June 7, 1995). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/07/business/trump-plaza-casino-stock-trades-today-on-big-board.html">"Trump Plaza casino stock trades today on Big Board"</a>. <a href="/wiki/The_New_York_Times" title="The New York Times">The New York Times</a>. Retrieved December 14, 2014.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=The+New+York+Times&rft.atitle=Trump+Plaza+casino+stock+trades+today+on+Big+Board&rft.date=1995-06-07&rft.aulast=Norris&rft.aufirst=Floyd&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F1995%2F06%2F07%2Fbusiness%2Ftrump-plaza-casino-stock-trades-today-on-big-board.html&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3ANeutral+point+of+view%2FNoticeboard" class="Z3988"> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Third_anglo-afghan_war" data-mw-thread-id="h-Third_anglo-afghan_war-20250204135600">Third anglo-afghan war</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: Third anglo-afghan war">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1250141580"><div class="boilerplate archived archive-top mw-archivedtalk" style=""><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1235681985"><div class="side-box metadata side-box-right archive-top-result" style="padding: 10px; line-height: inherit;"> <div class="side-box-flex"> <div class="side-box-text" style="padding: 0;">Sockpuppet. (Non-administrator comment) <a href="/wiki/User:Bluethricecreamman" title="User:Bluethricecreamman">User:Bluethricecreamman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bluethricecreamman" title="User talk:Bluethricecreamman">Talk</a>·<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman" title="Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman">Contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250206044700-Third_anglo-afghan_war" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:47, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</div></div> </div> <div class="boilerplate-header" style="margin-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic;"> The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. </div> <hr/> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1235781174">.mw-parser-output .hmbox-outer{margin-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .hmbox-inner{display:inline-block;color:var(--color-base,#202122);border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);background-color:var(--background-color-interactive-subtle,#f8f9fa);margin-right:0.5em;padding:0.3em 0.5em}</style><div role="note" class="hmbox-outer unresolved"><div class="hmbox-inner"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Purple_arrow_down.svg/20px-Purple_arrow_down.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Purple_arrow_down.svg/30px-Purple_arrow_down.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Purple_arrow_down.svg/40px-Purple_arrow_down.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="250"/> Moved from <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view">Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view</a></div></div> Hi, can you help me and another user in the article third anglo-afghan war? Because some people keep changing the result of the war and now some admin protected the page. But I asked and if we agree we can change it so can you help us please because the sources and even the article imply that the war was Inconclusive or a minor British tactical victory <a href="/wiki/User:Panekasos" title="User:Panekasos">Panekasos</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Panekasos" title="User talk:Panekasos">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Panekasos-20250204135600-Third_anglo-afghan_war" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:56, 4 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <ul><li>Reverted and commented. - <a href="/wiki/User:Ratnahastin" title="User:Ratnahastin">Ratnahastin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Ratnahastin" title="User talk:Ratnahastin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Ratnahastin-20250204143700-Panekasos-20250204135600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:37, 4 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li></ul> <ul><li>Panekasos was indeffed. <a href="/wiki/User:Polygnotus" title="User:Polygnotus">Polygnotus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Polygnotus" title="User talk:Polygnotus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Polygnotus-20250204180500-Panekasos-20250204135600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:05, 4 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li></ul> <div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div> </div><div style="clear:both;" class=""></div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Al_Jazeera_Media_Network" data-mw-thread-id="h-Al_Jazeera_Media_Network-20250206015600">Al Jazeera Media Network</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=14" title="Edit section: Al Jazeera Media Network">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> There is an ongoing dispute between two users at <a href="/wiki/Al_Jazeera_Media_Network" title="Al Jazeera Media Network">Al Jazeera Media Network</a> and its associated talkpage (see <a href="/wiki/Talk:Al_Jazeera_Media_Network#Editorial_independence_section" title="Talk:Al Jazeera Media Network">Talk:Al_Jazeera_Media_Network#Editorial_independence_section</a>) over how the the Qatari state's alleged influence over the broadcaster should be described and framed. Input from other users would be appreciated. <a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hemiauchenia" title="User talk:Hemiauchenia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Hemiauchenia-20250206015600-Al_Jazeera_Media_Network" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:56, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Amin_Abu_Rashid" data-mw-thread-id="h-Amin_Abu_Rashid-20250206032700">Amin Abu Rashid</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=15" title="Edit section: Amin Abu Rashid">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> I'd appreciate it if other editors could take a look at <a href="/wiki/Amin_Abu_Rashid" title="Amin Abu Rashid">Amin Abu Rashid</a>, which I've just applied ECP protection to as a general PIA measure. It pretty clearly has at least a bit of a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DUE">WP:DUE</a> problem, but it's not immediately clear how much of one. signed, <a href="/wiki/User:Rosguill" title="User:Rosguill">Rosguill</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rosguill" title="User talk:Rosguill">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Rosguill-20250206032700-Amin_Abu_Rashid" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:27, 6 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I've trimmed it a bit. <a href="/wiki/User:Alaexis" title="User:Alaexis">Alaexis</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Alaexis" title="User talk:Alaexis">¿question?</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Alaexis-20250207203900-Rosguill-20250206032700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:39, 7 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom,_insertion_of_material_around_Muslim/Asian_grooming_gangs,_generally_other_issues_as_well" data-mw-thread-id="h-Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom,_insertion_of_material_around_Muslim/Asian-20250208232300"><a href="/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom" title="Race and crime in the United Kingdom">Race and crime in the United Kingdom</a>, insertion of material around Muslim/Asian grooming gangs, generally other issues as well</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=16" title="Edit section: Race and crime in the United Kingdom, insertion of material around Muslim/Asian grooming gangs, generally other issues as well">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> pinging @<a href="/wiki/User:Kioj156" title="User:Kioj156">Kioj156</a> See also debacle previously with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_113#Muslim_grooming_gangs_in_the_United_Kingdom" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 113"> Muslim grooming gangs</a> I think generally, this entire article was significant issues which apparently haven't been addressed for a decade or more. <a href="/wiki/User:Bluethricecreamman" title="User:Bluethricecreamman">User:Bluethricecreamman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bluethricecreamman" title="User talk:Bluethricecreamman">Talk</a>·<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman" title="Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman">Contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250208232300-Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom,_insertion_of_material_around_Muslim/Asian" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:23, 8 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Yeah, Kioj156 was the user who "expanded" the grooming gangs article so that it fit right -wing narratives, giving excessive space to criticism of the home office report that suggested that there was no evidence that Muslims/South Asians were overrepresented. I would say just chuck the lot, as their contributions are obviously partisan and not objective. <a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hemiauchenia" title="User talk:Hemiauchenia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Hemiauchenia-20250208235100-Bluethricecreamman-20250208232300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:51, 8 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Article apparently has had multiple maintenance tags since 2010s. Will give it another look thru later to clean it up. <a href="/wiki/User:Bluethricecreamman" title="User:Bluethricecreamman">User:Bluethricecreamman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bluethricecreamman" title="User talk:Bluethricecreamman">Talk</a>·<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman" title="Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman">Contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250208235700-Hemiauchenia-20250208235100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:57, 8 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>also noting Kioj156 is literally copy pasting from his preferred version of Muslim grooming gangs article <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kioj156/sandbox">stored in his sandbox</a> into <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom&diff=prev&oldid=1273511819">this diff</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Bluethricecreamman" title="User:Bluethricecreamman">User:Bluethricecreamman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bluethricecreamman" title="User talk:Bluethricecreamman">Talk</a>·<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman" title="Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman">Contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250209000000-Hemiauchenia-20250208235100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:00, 9 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I've just replaced the entire section with an excerpt from the IMO now quite well written <a href="/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_in_the_United_Kingdom" title="Child sexual abuse in the United Kingdom">Child sexual abuse in the United Kingdom</a> article. <a href="/wiki/User:Hemiauchenia" title="User:Hemiauchenia">Hemiauchenia</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Hemiauchenia" title="User talk:Hemiauchenia">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Hemiauchenia-20250209000200-Bluethricecreamman-20250209000000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:02, 9 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Good to know I'm not going mad, as I read that version I was sure I had seen it before. A bit late to the discussion, but I support replacing it with an excerpt. -- LCU <a href="/wiki/User:ActivelyDisinterested" title="User:ActivelyDisinterested">ActivelyDisinterested</a> «<a href="/wiki/User_talk:ActivelyDisinterested" title="User talk:ActivelyDisinterested">@</a>» °<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested" title="Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested">∆t</a>° <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-ActivelyDisinterested-20250212221800-Bluethricecreamman-20250209000000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:18, 12 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Gospel" data-mw-thread-id="h-Gospel-20250213072900"><a href="/wiki/Gospel" title="Gospel">Gospel</a></h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=17" title="Edit section: Gospel">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> This is about <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=&diff=prev&oldid=1275466935">[18]</a> and <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=&diff=prev&oldid=1275254202">[19]</a>. There are two <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> which have not been mentioned at those diffs: <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFTheissenMaloney2011" class="citation book cs1">Theissen, Gerd; Maloney, Linda M. (2011). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=AZdAxLt4lVUC&pg=PT109">The New Testament: A Literary History</a>. G - Reference, Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series. Fortress Press. p. unpaginated. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-8006-9785-3" title="Special:BookSources/978-0-8006-9785-3"><bdi>978-0-8006-9785-3</bdi></a>. Retrieved 11 February 2025. <q>In the case of Mark and John</q></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=The+New+Testament%3A+A+Literary+History&rft.series=G+-+Reference%2C+Information+and+Interdisciplinary+Subjects+Series&rft.pages=unpaginated&rft.pub=Fortress+Press&rft.date=2011&rft.isbn=978-0-8006-9785-3&rft.aulast=Theissen&rft.aufirst=Gerd&rft.au=Maloney%2C+Linda+M.&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DAZdAxLt4lVUC%26pg%3DPT109&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3ANeutral+point+of+view%2FNoticeboard" class="Z3988"></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFCharlesworthMcDonald2014" class="citation book cs1">Charlesworth, James H.; McDonald, Lee Martin (2014). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.nl/books?id=ATBjAwAAQBAJ&pg=PR22">Sacra Scriptura: How "Non-Canonical" Texts Functioned in Early Judaism and Early Christianity</a>. Jewish and Christian Texts. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. xxii fn. 28. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-567-29668-9" title="Special:BookSources/978-0-567-29668-9"><bdi>978-0-567-29668-9</bdi></a>. Retrieved 13 February 2025.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Sacra+Scriptura%3A+How+%22Non-Canonical%22+Texts+Functioned+in+Early+Judaism+and+Early+Christianity&rft.series=Jewish+and+Christian+Texts&rft.pages=xxii+fn.+28&rft.pub=Bloomsbury+Publishing&rft.date=2014&rft.isbn=978-0-567-29668-9&rft.aulast=Charlesworth&rft.aufirst=James+H.&rft.au=McDonald%2C+Lee+Martin&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.nl%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DATBjAwAAQBAJ%26pg%3DPR22&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3ANeutral+point+of+view%2FNoticeboard" class="Z3988"></li></ul> Note that I'm not opposed to stating it with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ATTRIBUTEPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ATTRIBUTEPOV">WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV</a>. The book by Oegema and Charlesworth is unpaginated at Google Books. <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250213072900-Gospel" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:29, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>No one is disputing the reliability of these sources. ~ <a href="/wiki/User:Pbritti" title="User:Pbritti">Pbritti</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pbritti" title="User talk:Pbritti">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Pbritti-20250213114600-Tgeorgescu-20250213072900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:46, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>You wrote <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">If your arguments were convincing, I'd have changed my position. But they weren't, especially in light of you being contradicted several times by the very sources you've mustered—something I've repeated since the first message in this section.</q> at <a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=&diff=prev&oldid=1275500817">[20]</a>. Do convince us that my sources do contradict me. As I said, you mentioned one page, whose message about false attributions is murky, so I don't see that page as contradicting my claim. Maybe there are other pages of that 312 pages book, which would contradict my claim.</dd> <dd>As I said, that book was published in 2011, so quite probably did not address Ehrman's two books about false attributions (published in 2011 and 2013). Barring prophecy and time travel, it probably didn't.</dd> <dd>Further, you are denying a descriptive label for historical facts that you don't seem to deny.</dd> <dd>Your claim that those <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> contradict me is simply put <a href="/wiki/Ipse_dixit" title="Ipse dixit">ipse dixit</a>. It is just something you say without mentioning any evidence for why you say that.</dd> <dd>Just to be sure: the page which would allegedly contradict me is the page preceding <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=p-7KDwAAQBAJ&pg=PR29">https://books.google.com/books?id=p-7KDwAAQBAJ&pg=PR29</a> at Google Books.</dd> <dd>Your edit summary for reverting my edit is <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Cited sources do not support the claim "false attribution" for all four Gospels (though verify such terminology application towards Matthew and, to a lesser degree, Mark)</q>. Which I take it to mean you're accusing me of playing fast and loose with <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V">WP:V</a>. As far as I can see it, your accusation is false. One RS does mention only one gospel as falsely attributed, but it would be odd to construe the other two RS as not meaning all four New Testament gospels. <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250213132800-Pbritti-20250213114600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:28, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I have made no such accusation; if anything, I think you only slightly misinterpreted two sources and applied undue weight to others. I recommend returning to the article talk page. Anyone else who wants to offer their thoughts is encouraged to do so. ~ <a href="/wiki/User:Pbritti" title="User:Pbritti">Pbritti</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pbritti" title="User talk:Pbritti">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Pbritti-20250213134000-Tgeorgescu-20250213132800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:40, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>That's the only way I can construe the statement <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Cited sources do not support the claim "false attribution" for all four Gospels (though verify such terminology application towards Matthew and, to a lesser degree, Mark)</q> (emphasis mine). My opinion is that your statement is flat-out false. Ehrman and Burke do claim that all 4 NT gospels are false attributions. <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250213134700-Pbritti-20250213134000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:47, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Could you please provide relevant page numbers and / or quotes from the text? <a href="/wiki/User:Simonm223" title="User:Simonm223">Simonm223</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simonm223" title="User talk:Simonm223">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Simonm223-20250213145100-Tgeorgescu-20250213134700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:51, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>"I have not dealt at any length with false attribution here, even though it affects a number of the writings of the New Testament (the Gospels, 2 and 3 John), not to mention later writers (Pseudo-Justin, Pseudo-Tertullian, Pseudo-Chrysostom, and on and on). In many instances the attributions may have been made in full cognizance that there were no real grounds for making the ascriptions (the Gospel of Matthew); in other instances they were probably simply made by mistake (Pseudo-Justin)." From the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CITED" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CITED">WP:CITED</a> book by Ehrman. A quote from Burke will follow a tad later. <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250213150100-Simonm223-20250213145100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:01, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1244412712"><blockquote class="templatequote">While biblical scholars have been hesitant to use the term "forgery" to describe biblical pseudepigrapha (often preferring to label them "pious frauds"),51 they have been far less timid in their assessment of noncanonical pseudepigrapha, particularly texts written in late antique or medieval times.52 From as early as the late second century, texts not accepted by the Roman church have been characterized using the terminology of forgery: nothön, pseudos, falsa, and, of course, apokryphös (Irenaeus, Haer. 1.13.1 ; 1.20.1; 5.21.2; Tertullian, Pud. 10.12; Res. 63; Eusebius, Hist. eccl. 2.23.24; 3-3; 3.25; 4.11.8; 4.22.9•, Athanasius, Ep. 39).53 But few of these texts actually bear false attributions—some, like the canonical Gospels, were originally anonymous and acquired apostolic credentials late in the manuscript transmission; others are written about early Christian figures, not by them. They are "false" principally because the early Roman church did not like their contents, not because of their claims of authorship.54 That said, some apocryphal texts have at times approached the canonical in estimation. For example, 3 Corinthians, though not valued in the West, was canonical in Eastern churches for centuries; Paul's Epistle to the Laodiceans appears in over 100 Vulgate manuscripts;55 Eusebius, an authority on canon in the<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>50. For suspicious qualities about Simonides' manuscripts see Farrer, Literary Forgeries, 48-49, 55-56; on the Shapira Scroll, see Rabinowicz, "Shapria Scroll," 9—10, 14-15 51. Metzger, "Literary Forgeries," 15—19 surveys some of the literature; see also Ehrman, Forgery, 35—43.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>52. On forgery and apocrypha see Chambers, History and Motives, 12—14; Frarrer, Literary Forgeries, 126—44; and inter alia Ehrman, Forgery.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>53. For a comprehensive discussion of the terminology as applied to Christian apocrypha, see T6th, "Way Out of the Tunnel?" 50—63; also Speyer, Die literarische Fälschung, 185—86. Speyer incorporates a variety of early Christian apocrypha in his study but particularly noteworthy is his excursus on apocryphal acts (ibid., 210—18). Brox (Falsche Verfasserangaben, 26—36) surveys a range of examples of pseudepigraphy in Christian apocrypha and church orders, focusing, like Speyer on the motives for attribution and noting that in some cases, attributions are due to secondary efforts to determine authorship rather than an intention to deceive.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>54. See Metzger, "Literary Forgeries," 14—15.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>55. The manuscript sources are provided in Berger, Histoire de la Vulgate. 9<div class="templatequotecite">— <cite>Burke, op. cit</cite></div></blockquote></dd> <dd>Hyphens have been omitted. Quoted by <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250213151000-Simonm223-20250213145100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:10, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>Just to make sure, the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> are: <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFBrakke2016" class="citation journal cs1">Brakke, David (2016). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/26543540">"Early Christian Lies and the Lying Liars Who Wrote Them: Bart Ehrman's Forgery and Counterforgery"</a>. The Journal of Religion. 96 (3). The University of Chicago Press: 378–390. <a href="/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISSN (identifier)">ISSN</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://search.worldcat.org/issn/0022-4189">0022-4189</a>. <a href="/wiki/JSTOR_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="JSTOR (identifier)">JSTOR</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/26543540">26543540</a>. Retrieved 13 February 2025.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.jtitle=The+Journal+of+Religion&rft.atitle=Early+Christian+Lies+and+the+Lying+Liars+Who+Wrote+Them%3A+Bart+Ehrman%27s+Forgery+and+Counterforgery&rft.volume=96&rft.issue=3&rft.pages=%3Cspan+class%3D%22nowrap%22%3E378-%3C%2Fspan%3E390&rft.date=2016&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jstor.org%2Fstable%2F26543540%23id-name%3DJSTOR&rft.issn=00224189&rft.aulast=Brakke&rft.aufirst=David&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jstor.org%2Fstable%2F26543540&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3ANeutral+point+of+view%2FNoticeboard" class="Z3988"></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFBurkeGregory2017" class="citation book cs1">Burke, Tony; Gregory, Andrew (2017). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=XfbEDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA9">Fakes, Forgeries, and Fictions: Writing Ancient and Modern Christian Apocrypha: Proceedings from the 2015 York Christian Apocrypha Symposium</a>. Cascade Books. p. 9. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-1-5326-0373-0" title="Special:BookSources/978-1-5326-0373-0"><bdi>978-1-5326-0373-0</bdi></a>. Retrieved 13 February 2025.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Fakes%2C+Forgeries%2C+and+Fictions%3A+Writing+Ancient+and+Modern+Christian+Apocrypha%3A+Proceedings+from+the+2015+York+Christian+Apocrypha+Symposium&rft.pages=9&rft.pub=Cascade+Books&rft.date=2017&rft.isbn=978-1-5326-0373-0&rft.aulast=Burke&rft.aufirst=Tony&rft.au=Gregory%2C+Andrew&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DXfbEDgAAQBAJ%26pg%3DPA9&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3ANeutral+point+of+view%2FNoticeboard" class="Z3988"></li> <li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFEhrman2012" class="citation book cs1">Ehrman, Bart D. (2012). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=DtjrofIFO04C&pg=PA534">Forgery and Counterforgery: The Use of Literary Deceit in Early Christian Polemics</a>. Oxford University Press. p. 534 fn. 14. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-19-998689-7" title="Special:BookSources/978-0-19-998689-7"><bdi>978-0-19-998689-7</bdi></a>. Retrieved 13 February 2025.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Forgery+and+Counterforgery%3A+The+Use+of+Literary+Deceit+in+Early+Christian+Polemics&rft.pages=534+fn.+14&rft.pub=Oxford+University+Press&rft.date=2012&rft.isbn=978-0-19-998689-7&rft.aulast=Ehrman&rft.aufirst=Bart+D.&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DDtjrofIFO04C%26pg%3DPA534&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AWikipedia%3ANeutral+point+of+view%2FNoticeboard" class="Z3988"> <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250213152700-Simonm223-20250213145100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:27, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</li></ul></dd> <dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1244412712"><blockquote class="templatequote">But as it turns out, there are also two kinds of pseudepigraphal writings. Sometimes a writing was published anonymously, with no author’s name attached, for example, the Gospel of Matthew. But later readers and copyists asserted that they knew who had written it and claimed it was by a well-known, authoritative person, in this case the disciple Matthew. In writings of this sort, which are wrongly attributed to a well-known person, the author is not trying to deceive anyone.14 He or she remained anonymous. It is only later readers who claimed that the author was someone else. This kind of pseudepigraphy, then, involves a “false ascription” a work is “ascribed” to someone who didn’t write it.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>Whereas some pseudepigrapha—writings under a “false name”—are forgeries, others involve “false attributions” in this case someone other than the author claims that an anonymous writing was written by a well-known person, when in fact it was not. Sometimes, to be sure, that can be a form of deception (though not by the author). Other times it is just a well-intentioned mistake.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div>So, for example, four early Gospels that were all anonymous began to be circulated under the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John about a century after they were written. The book of Acts was known to have been written by the author of the Third Gospel, so it too was assigned to Luke.<div class="templatequotecite">— <cite><a href="/wiki/Forged_(book)" title="Forged (book)">Forged (book)</a></cite></div></blockquote></dd> <dd>Quoted by <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250213153700-Simonm223-20250213145100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:37, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>For copyright reasons, I'm not allowed to cite everything, but I can assure you that the statement about Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is under the subtitle False Attributions, and in a context which explains what false attributions are. <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250213160200-Simonm223-20250213145100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:02, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I do find the quotations from the second source pretty compelling. <a href="/wiki/User:Simonm223" title="User:Simonm223">Simonm223</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simonm223" title="User talk:Simonm223">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Simonm223-20250213160600-Tgeorgescu-20250213160200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:06, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>About Ehrman's book: Google Books says it was published in 2012, but the book itself says it was published in 2013. <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250213161900-Simonm223-20250213160600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:19, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"></div>This discussion isn't about Ehrman, but that the term "false attributions" is disputed and considered misleading by other scholarship. See <a href="/wiki/James_H._Charlesworth" title="James H. Charlesworth">James H. Charlesworth</a>, "The Parables of Enoch and the Apocalypse of John", <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=p-7KDwAAQBAJ&pg=PR2#v=onepage&q&f=false">The Pseudepigrapha and Christian Origins: Essays from the Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas</a> (<a href="/wiki/Bloomsbury_Publishing" title="Bloomsbury Publishing">Bloomsbury Publishing</a>, 2011): "The assumption that 'pseudepigraphical' means 'false' attribution and therefore not important needs to be dismissed." ~ <a href="/wiki/User:Pbritti" title="User:Pbritti">Pbritti</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pbritti" title="User talk:Pbritti">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Pbritti-20250213164000-Gospel" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:40, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Now I'm the unconvinced one. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">the term "false attributions" is disputed and considered misleading by other scholarship</q> fails <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V">WP:V</a> in the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> just given. The RS rejects "not important", but does not reject "false attributions". The RS is a collection of papers from 2001 to 2006, so obviously it does not address books published in 2011 and 2013. As explained by Burke above, "false" traditionally does not mean "false authorship", but "false teachings, according to the Roman church". The reevaluation of "not important" works is lambasted by Rodney J. Decker in "The Rehabilitation of Heresy: 'Misquoting' Earliest Christianity". Just for the record, I don't agree with Decker, but he represents traditional Christian thinking.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>Or, if the quote you offered does not fail <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V">WP:V</a>, it is at least a cryptic statement, which can be interpreted in various ways. <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250214005900-Pbritti-20250213164000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:59, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">Roman church</q>? What are you talking about? ~ <a href="/wiki/User:Pbritti" title="User:Pbritti">Pbritti</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pbritti" title="User talk:Pbritti">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Pbritti-20250214010400-Tgeorgescu-20250214005900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:04, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I'm talking about the quote from Burke, posted above. <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250214010500-Pbritti-20250214010400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:05, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>So Burke and Charlesworth object to the term of "false" in this context. I think we've established scholarly object to the term, which is the crux of the issue here. ~ <a href="/wiki/User:Pbritti" title="User:Pbritti">Pbritti</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pbritti" title="User talk:Pbritti">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Pbritti-20250214011600-Tgeorgescu-20250214010500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:16, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Again: that's only an interpretation, your interpretation. You're reading your own views into those quotes. But I will let other Wikipedians be the judge of that.</dd> <dd>The broader problem is the lack of a realistic alternative. Suppose those should not be called "false attributions" or "wrong attributions". Do state how those should be called, instead of that. <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250214020700-Pbritti-20250214011600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:07, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd> <dd>WTF <a href="/wiki/User:Pbritti" title="User:Pbritti">Pbritti</a>, looking at the three sources you've given here i would say if not a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CIR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CIR">WP:CIR</a> issue then sanctionable misrepresentation. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20250214022000-Pbritti-20250214011600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:20, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>@<a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">Fiveby</a>: cool it. Both you and tgeorgescu have been insistent on making this personal. If you have a rationale for your comment, provide it. ~ <a href="/wiki/User:Pbritti" title="User:Pbritti">Pbritti</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pbritti" title="User talk:Pbritti">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Pbritti-20250214022700-Fiveby-20250214022000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:27, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I'm calling it "an interpretation" or "reading into". I don't know how to state it otherwise, in order to avoid a possible <a href="/wiki/Ad_hominem" title="Ad hominem">ad hominem</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250214023800-Pbritti-20250214022700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:38, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Well, as an example, when an editor claims an author is arguing the gospels are not falsely attributed, and provides a link to text which includes <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">In the New Testament "false attribution" applies notably to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John,...</q> i'll call it lack of competence or misrepresentation. <a href="/wiki/User:Fiveby" title="User:Fiveby">fiveby</a>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fiveby" title="User talk:Fiveby">zero</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Fiveby-20250214024800-Tgeorgescu-20250214023800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:48, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Can definitely say that launching an ANI and referring to my edits as <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">pontificating</q> ;(<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gospel#c-Tgeorgescu-20250213113900-Pbritti-20250213053800">[21]</a>) had a very personal chilling effect. Fiveby, your reading of the source is not perfect in the context of the paragraph before it. It's not worth fixing this issue if I have to deal with personal attacks. I'm tapping out. ~ <a href="/wiki/User:Pbritti" title="User:Pbritti">Pbritti</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pbritti" title="User talk:Pbritti">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Pbritti-20250214025200-Fiveby-20250214024800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:52, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>"Pontificating", because the only <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:V" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:V">WP:V</a> statement you have produced is a multi-interpretable statement, from a paper preceding by at least five years the publication of <a href="/wiki/Forged_(book)" title="Forged (book)">Forged (book)</a>.</dd> <dd>So, there is no evidence that Ehrman got sidelined, five to seven years before publishing his germane claims.</dd> <dd>And you complain of personal attacks, while for me: (i) it is not clear what your evidence is about <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">considered misleading</q>, or about Ehrman got sidelined (ii) you have been falsely accusing me of making rookie mistakes, namely making claims which are not supported by the sources.</dd> <dd>I'm not saying that I don't make mistakes. But sometimes the accusation that I made a mistake could be itself mistaken. And you could have avoided all this fuss by declaring that you made a mistake. You could see me as mercilessly attacking you, while I only ask you to admit you made a mistake. <a href="/wiki/User:Tgeorgescu" title="User:Tgeorgescu">tgeorgescu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tgeorgescu" title="User talk:Tgeorgescu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Tgeorgescu-20250214085200-Pbritti-20250214025200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:52, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="New_Tang_Dynasty_Television" data-mw-thread-id="h-New_Tang_Dynasty_Television-20250213192500">New Tang Dynasty Television</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=18" title="Edit section: New Tang Dynasty Television">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> Recently an editor has made a few efforts to significantly alter the POV at <a href="/wiki/New_Tang_Dynasty_Television" title="New Tang Dynasty Television">New Tang Dynasty Television</a> - a TV station affiliated with the Falun Gong. Eyes would be good. <a href="/wiki/User:Simonm223" title="User:Simonm223">Simonm223</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simonm223" title="User talk:Simonm223">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Simonm223-20250213192500-New_Tang_Dynasty_Television" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:25, 13 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Slavery_as_a_positive_good_in_the_United_States" data-mw-thread-id="h-Slavery_as_a_positive_good_in_the_United_States-20250214103400">Slavery as a positive good in the United States</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=19" title="Edit section: Slavery as a positive good in the United States">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> See <a href="/wiki/Slavery_as_a_positive_good_in_the_United_States" title="Slavery as a positive good in the United States">Slavery as a positive good in the United States</a>... This title seems extremely editorialized and without RS to justify it. Literally identifying any subject as a "positive good", let alone slavery, seems extremely misleading and or non-neutral... Thoughts?.... <a href="/wiki/User:Darknipples" title="User:Darknipples">DN</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Darknipples" title="User talk:Darknipples">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Darknipples-20250214103400-Slavery_as_a_positive_good_in_the_United_States" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:34, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I don't think the title is editorialized, it's discussing viewpoints that held American slavery as ultimately at least "better than the alternative" to much more enthusiastic support for the institution. The question is really whether there are enough modern sources discussing slavery in that framing, and if the level of detail is summary style, and that's where I find nothing that justifies the article's existence (on a trip down Gbooks and Jstor I didn't find papers or books that discuss just this aspect of the slavery question in America) and think it's excessively wordy. It's ultimately a POV fork and duplicative of content that should discussed holistically; <a href="/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States" title="Slavery in the United States">Slavery in the United States</a> currently already links to <a href="/wiki/American_proslavery_movement" class="mw-redirect" title="American proslavery movement">American proslavery movement</a> and those two articles already cover the majority of what's in this discussed article. A merge seems most appropriate. <a href="/wiki/User:David_Fuchs" title="User:David Fuchs">Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:David_Fuchs" title="User talk:David Fuchs">talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-David_Fuchs-20250214111200-Darknipples-20250214103400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:12, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>There are much better titles available, which are more consistent with the way this topic is discussed in mainstream scholarly sources. I've suggested <a href="/w/index.php?title=Pro-slavery_ideology_in_the_United_States&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Pro-slavery ideology in the United States (page does not exist)">Pro-slavery ideology in the United States</a> and created a move request <a href="/wiki/Talk:Slavery_as_a_positive_good_in_the_United_States#Requested_move_14_February_2025" title="Talk:Slavery as a positive good in the United States">on the talk page.</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Generalrelative" title="User:Generalrelative">Generalrelative</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Generalrelative" title="User talk:Generalrelative">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Generalrelative-20250214120700-David_Fuchs-20250214111200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:07, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>I agree with Generalrelative. That name is non-neutral and should be changed. <a href="/wiki/User:Simonm223" title="User:Simonm223">Simonm223</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simonm223" title="User talk:Simonm223">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Simonm223-20250214121000-Generalrelative-20250214120700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:10, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>To clarify: as it stands, <a href="/wiki/American_proslavery_movement" class="mw-redirect" title="American proslavery movement">American proslavery movement</a> redirects to a section of <a href="/wiki/Proslavery_thought" title="Proslavery thought">Proslavery thought</a>. I would be fine with a merge to Proslavery thought, as David Fuchs suggests, in principle. But if the consensus is that there is enough notable material for a full article on proslavery thought in America specifically, I'm fine with that too. But that article should have a better title. <a href="/wiki/User:Generalrelative" title="User:Generalrelative">Generalrelative</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Generalrelative" title="User talk:Generalrelative">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Generalrelative-20250214122700-Simonm223-20250214121000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:27, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>My knee-jerk reaction is that there is probably enough material for a separate "US-pro-slavery" article. US-slavery is covered like no other kind. <a href="/wiki/User:Gr%C3%A5bergs_Gr%C3%A5a_S%C3%A5ng" title="User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång">Gråbergs Gråa Sång</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gr%C3%A5bergs_Gr%C3%A5a_S%C3%A5ng" title="User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Gråbergs_Gråa_Sång-20250214134200-Generalrelative-20250214122700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:42, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"></div> The <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RM" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RM">WP:RM</a> discussion is up now at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Slavery_as_a_positive_good_in_the_United_States#Requested_move_14_February_2025" title="Talk:Slavery as a positive good in the United States">Talk:Slavery as a positive good in the United States#Requested move 14 February 2025</a>...Thanks Generalrelative. Cheers. <a href="/wiki/User:Darknipples" title="User:Darknipples">DN</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Darknipples" title="User talk:Darknipples">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Darknipples-20250215023200-Slavery_as_a_positive_good_in_the_United_States" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:32, 15 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="original_author" data-mw-thread-id="h-original_author-Slavery_as_a_positive_good_in_the_United_States-20250215032200">original author</h3>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=20" title="Edit section: original author">edit</a>]</div> the person who originally created that article is @<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:DoomedToRepeatHistory&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:DoomedToRepeatHistory (page does not exist)">DoomedToRepeatHistory</a>, who appears to be inactive. In addition that article, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://xtools.wmcloud.org/pages/en.wikipedia.org/DoomedToRepeatHistory">they created</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Revolutionary_nationalism" title="Revolutionary nationalism">Revolutionary nationalism</a>, which included equating Mussolini to revolutionary nationalism, and has an OR tag on it.</li> <li><a href="/w/index.php?title=Controversy_over_Hitler%27s_participation_in_the_Bavarian_Soviet_Republic&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Controversy over Hitler's participation in the Bavarian Soviet Republic (page does not exist)">Controversy over Hitler's participation in the Bavarian Soviet Republic</a>, which is apparently a theory to suggest that Hitler supported communism (he def did not)</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Fascist_syndicalism" title="Fascist syndicalism">Fascist syndicalism</a>, another thing suggesting fascism incorporated marxist ideals</li> <li>any number of libertarian articles...</li></ul> all of these deserve discussion at NPOVN as well, many have the essay maintenance tag on them. <a href="/wiki/User:Bluethricecreamman" title="User:Bluethricecreamman">User:Bluethricecreamman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bluethricecreamman" title="User talk:Bluethricecreamman">Talk</a>·<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman" title="Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman">Contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250215032200-original_author" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:22, 15 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>much of these edits are mostly in terms of trying to equate marxism with fascism, and promoting libertarianism. <a href="/wiki/User:Bluethricecreamman" title="User:Bluethricecreamman">User:Bluethricecreamman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bluethricecreamman" title="User talk:Bluethricecreamman">Talk</a>·<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman" title="Special:Contributions/Bluethricecreamman">Contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250215032800-Bluethricecreamman-20250215032200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:28, 15 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>Sounds like serial POV. <a href="/wiki/User:Darknipples" title="User:Darknipples">DN</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Darknipples" title="User talk:Darknipples">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Darknipples-20250215042400-Bluethricecreamman-20250215032800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:24, 15 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Regarding_Reversion_of_Other_Scholarly_Perspectives_on_Safi-ad-Din_Ardabili’s_Lineage" data-mw-thread-id="h-Regarding_Reversion_of_Other_Scholarly_Perspectives_on_Safi-ad-Din_Ardabili’s-20250214134800">Regarding Reversion of Other Scholarly Perspectives on Safi-ad-Din Ardabili’s Lineage</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=21" title="Edit section: Regarding Reversion of Other Scholarly Perspectives on Safi-ad-Din Ardabili’s Lineage">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> An experienced editor <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Safi-ad-Din_Ardabili&diff=1275599789&oldid=1275023784">reverted the content I added</a>. The inclusion of different historians' views on the genealogy of Safi-ad-Din Ardabili is being prevented. As you can see from the messages in <a href="/wiki/Talk:Safi-ad-Din_Ardabili#Reversal_of_the_inclusion_of_different_opinions_in_the_article" title="Talk:Safi-ad-Din Ardabili">talk page</a>, it seems unlikely that I will reach a consensus with the editor on the talk page. Despite asking the editor how I could contribute, @<a href="/wiki/User:HistoryofIran" title="User:HistoryofIran">HistoryofIran</a> did not provide constructive feedback. Moreover, I believe @HistoryofIran overlooked policies such as <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CONTEXTMATTERS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CONTEXTMATTERS">WP:CONTEXTMATTERS</a> ,</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view" title="Wikipedia:Neutral point of view">Wikipedia:Neutral point of view</a>,</li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Ownership_of_content" title="Wikipedia:Ownership of content">Wikipedia:Ownership of content</a>,</li> <li>@HistoryofIran is particularly disregarding the fact that <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DUE">WP:DUE</a> states that a viewpoint can be included in the article even if it represents a minority opinion (which is not the case for minority here).</li></ul> Chronologically: <ol><li>@ <a href="/wiki/User:HistoryofIran" title="User:HistoryofIran"><bdi>HistoryofIran</bdi></a> reverted <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Safi-ad-Din_Ardabili&diff=1275599789&oldid=1275023784">my edits</a> with <ol><li>disregarding the other <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> and instead putting forward a source from 1980 to present it as "disputed" is not an improvement. Savory, whom you are relying on a lot, said later in 1997 that they were of Kurdish origin https://iranicaonline.org/articles/ebn-bazzaz.</li></ol></li> <li>The most fundamental problem with this revert is that, as I later asked on the talk page, it did not demonstrate that Savory's views had changed after 1997. Moreover, I had not added any opinion for or against Savory's view, particularly the one case referenced in the Encyclopedia Iranica.</li> <li>My edits was mostly about the differing views of various historians regarding the lineage of Safi-ad-Din Ardabili were written with clear attribution to who held which perspective. Among these historians were notable figures such as <a href="https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_Hinz" class="extiw" title="de:Walther Hinz">Hinz</a>, <a href="/wiki/David_Ayalon" title="David Ayalon">Ayalon</a>, <a href="/wiki/Zeki_Velidi_Togan" title="Zeki Velidi Togan">Togan</a>, <a href="/wiki/James_L._Gelvin" title="James L. Gelvin">Gelvin</a>, whose significance is unquestionable.</li> <li>@ <a href="/wiki/User:HistoryofIran" title="User:HistoryofIran"><bdi>HistoryofIran</bdi></a> claimed in talk page: <ol><li>Rudi Matthee, one of the most prominent scholars for Safavid studies, also say that they were originally of Kurdish origin <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://iranicaonline.org/articles/safavids">[8]</a></li> <li>Quote (2008): while ethnic Persians, called Tajiks, were dominant in the areas of administration and culture. As Persians of Kurdish ancestry and of a non-tribal background, the Safavids did not fit this pattern, though the state they set up with the assistance of Turkmen tribal forces of eastern Anatolia closely resembled this division in its makeup.</li></ol></li> <li>As you can see, the quote above is not directly related with Safi-ad-Din Ardabili.</li> <li>However, I brought a quote from Rudi Matthee's compilation book (2011), which has a title in a chapter directly focuses on Safi-ad-Din Ardabili's lineage. Quote: postulate various other possibilities for the family’s ethnic and linguistic background, including Arab and Kurdish.</li> <li>I brought an attention to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them.</a></li> <li>Despite asking how I could contribute to the article to reach a consensus, I have not received a clear response.</li> <li>I asked in which of my edits I had made comments on whether Savory was Kurdish or not. No response given back.</li> <li>Additionally, if we look at the statements made by @HistoryofIran on the talk page in 2020, it could be inferred that he attempted to assert <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Ownership_of_content" title="Wikipedia:Ownership of content">Wikipedia:Ownership of content</a> . <ol><li>"There is no dispute for the original origin of the Safavids, which was indeed Kurdish, and is acknowledged by the majority of scholarship"</li></ol></li></ol> <a href="/wiki/User:TarantaBabu" title="User:TarantaBabu">TarantaBabu</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TarantaBabu" title="User talk:TarantaBabu">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-TarantaBabu-20250214134800-Regarding_Reversion_of_Other_Scholarly_Perspectives_on_Safi-ad-Din_Ardabili’s" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:48, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <dl><dd>If TarantaBabu could put the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BATTLEGROUND" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BATTLEGROUND">WP:BATTLEGROUND</a> pitchfork down for a second and actually take their time to read my comments, they would consider this report an oddity. It makes it a bit more difficult to have <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GF">WP:GF</a> when you are such in a hurry to spin a false narrative of me. Possible <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:OUCH" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:OUCH">WP:OUCH</a> and even <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GAMING" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GAMING">WP:GAMING</a> here.</dd> <dd>1. Which you did.</dd> <dd>2. and 3. See 9.</dd> <dd>4 and 5. That so, who does Rudi Matthee talk about then? Perhaps you know something others don't?</dd> <dd>6. That chapter is still not written by Rudi Matthee, which you keep omitting. Though he indeed edit the book. But as I said, I'm not sure what to make out of this, as I have no problem with showing uncertainty and even being wrong. And instead of replying to that, you keep being combative.</dd> <dd>7. On whose realm you're tip toeing.</dd> <dd>8. You never asked this, this is blatant falsehood, and again makes me question your <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:GF" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:GF">WP:GF</a> even more. I even openly said <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Safi-ad-Din_Ardabili&diff=prev&oldid=1275677036">"You might have a point, but the execution was, respectfully, not good."</a> This is the part where you continue having a proper discussion and tone, and thus, a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CONSENSUS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CONSENSUS">WP:CONSENSUS</a>.</dd> <dd>9. Sigh.. you're heavily relying on a 1980 source by Savory in which he presents the origin of the ancestor of the Safavids, <a href="/wiki/Safi-ad-Din_Ardabili" title="Safi-ad-Din Ardabili">Safi-ad-Din Ardabili</a> as disputed. However, a decade later, he no longer considered that to be the case and outright said that they were Kurds, as shown in the talk page.</dd> <dd>10. I'm not sure how you find a diff from 5 years ago relevant to cite, I didn't even remember that comment, not that I find anything wrong with it. We ultimately rely on <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> says and its consensus, which I'm sure I was aware of back in 2020, despite how you are trying to misrepresent it. You also omitted the first part of that comment, in which I mentioned that the IP was misusing sources, or did that not with fit with your narrative of me? I would like to remind you of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ASPERSIONS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ASPERSIONS">WP:ASPERSIONS</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BATTLEGROUND" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BATTLEGROUND">WP:BATTLEGROUND</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:HistoryofIran" title="User:HistoryofIran">HistoryofIran</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:HistoryofIran" title="User talk:HistoryofIran">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-HistoryofIran-20250214140800-TarantaBabu-20250214134800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:08, 14 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="An_editor_is_referencing_the_Media_and_Journalism_Research_Center_across_Wikipedia_to_classify_news_media_as_state_media_or_not." data-mw-thread-id="h-An_editor_is_referencing_the_Media_and_Journalism_Research_Center_across_Wikiped-20250215075800">An editor is referencing the Media and Journalism Research Center across Wikipedia to classify news media as state media or not.</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=22" title="Edit section: An editor is referencing the Media and Journalism Research Center across Wikipedia to classify news media as state media or not.">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> @<a href="/wiki/User:CommonKnowledgeCreator" class="mw-redirect" title="User:CommonKnowledgeCreator">CommonKnowledgeCreator</a> is making edits on 100's wiki to establish Media and Journalism Research Center as a central authority to classify news media as state media or not. This can be violating <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DUE">WP:DUE</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BALASP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BALASP">WP:BALASP</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NPOV">WP:NPOV</a> I dont think Media and Journalism Research Center as <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:REPUTABLE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:REPUTABLE">WP:REPUTABLE</a> or a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RS">WP:RS</a> Please see related conversation : <a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#An_editor_is_referencing_the_Media_and_Journalism_Research_Center_across_Wikipedia_to_classify_news_media_as_state_media_or_not">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#An_editor_is_referencing_the_Media_and_Journalism_Research_Center_across_Wikipedia_to_classify_news_media_as_state_media_or_not</a>. Their edits : Please see <a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=People%27s_Daily&diff=prev&oldid=1270307767">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=People%27s_Daily&diff=prev&oldid=1270307767</a> <a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=China_Internet_Information_Center&diff=prev&oldid=1270458534">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=China_Internet_Information_Center&diff=prev&oldid=1270458534</a> <a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=TVB_Jade&diff=prev&oldid=1270521962">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=TVB_Jade&diff=prev&oldid=1270521962</a> <a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=China_Media_Group&diff=prev&oldid=1270307086">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=China_Media_Group&diff=prev&oldid=1270307086</a> <a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oriental_Sports_Daily&diff=prev&oldid=1270461804">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oriental_Sports_Daily&diff=prev&oldid=1270461804</a> <a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_France&diff=prev&oldid=1269532532">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_France&diff=prev&oldid=1269532532</a> and more <a href="/wiki/User:Astropulse" title="User:Astropulse">Astropulse</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Astropulse" title="User talk:Astropulse">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Astropulse-20250215075800-An_editor_is_referencing_the_Media_and_Journalism_Research_Center_across_Wikiped" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:58, 15 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>] <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="RfC_on_images_containing_Islamic_honorifics_or_calligraphy" data-mw-thread-id="h-RfC_on_images_containing_Islamic_honorifics_or_calligraphy-20250216112000">RfC on images containing Islamic honorifics or calligraphy</h2>[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&action=edit&section=23" title="Edit section: RfC on images containing Islamic honorifics or calligraphy">edit</a>]<div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <figure class="mw-halign-left" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Information.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/45px-Information.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/60px-Information.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="256" data-file-height="256"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure> There is an RfC at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Islam-related_articles#RfC_on_images_containing_Islamic_honorifics_or_calligraphy" title="Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles">Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles#RfC on images containing Islamic honorifics or calligraphy</a>, offering various proposals on the text of <a href="/wiki/MOS:CALLIGRAPHY" class="mw-redirect" title="MOS:CALLIGRAPHY">MOS:CALLIGRAPHY</a>. Editors are kindly invited to comment there. ☿ <a href="/wiki/User:Apaugasma" title="User:Apaugasma">Apaugasma</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Apaugasma" title="User talk:Apaugasma">talk</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Apaugasma" title="Special:Contributions/Apaugasma">☉</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#c-Apaugasma-20250216112000-RfC_on_images_containing_Islamic_honorifics_or_calligraphy" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:20, 16 February 2025 (UTC)</a>[<a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a>]    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?useformat=desktop&type=1x1&usesul3=0" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&oldid=1276012708">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&oldid=1276012708</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_noticeboards" title="Category:Wikipedia noticeboards">Wikipedia noticeboards</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_dispute_resolution" title="Category:Wikipedia dispute resolution">Wikipedia dispute resolution</a></li></ul></div><div id="mw-hidden-catlinks" class="mw-hidden-catlinks mw-hidden-cats-hidden">Hidden category: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Non-talk_pages_that_are_automatically_signed" title="Category:Non-talk pages that are automatically signed">Non-talk pages that are automatically signed</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 16 February 2025, at 11:20 (UTC).</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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