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Round 15</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">5 comments</span> <ul id="toc-"The_First_What?"_Round_15-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Contents-at-top" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Contents-at-top"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Contents-at-top</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Contents-at-top-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-ENIAC_designed_and_used_to_be_Turing-complete?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#ENIAC_designed_and_used_to_be_Turing-complete?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>ENIAC designed and used to be Turing-complete?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-ENIAC_designed_and_used_to_be_Turing-complete?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>The Women who Programmed ENIAC</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">7 comments</span> <ul id="toc-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-First_para_rephrase" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#First_para_rephrase"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>First para rephrase</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-First_para_rephrase-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Tube_failures" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Tube_failures"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>Tube failures</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Tube_failures-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Added_hidden_suggestion" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Added_hidden_suggestion"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>Added hidden suggestion</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Added_hidden_suggestion-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Comparison?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Comparison?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>Comparison?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Comparison?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-History" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#History"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11</span> <span>History</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-History-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Intro_again" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Intro_again"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">12</span> <span>Intro again</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">12 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Intro_again-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-False_information?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#False_information?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">13</span> <span>False information?</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-False_information?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Reference_required" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Reference_required"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">14</span> <span>Reference required</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">8 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Reference_required-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Image_caption_vandalsim?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Image_caption_vandalsim?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15</span> <span>Image caption vandalsim?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Image_caption_vandalsim?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">16</span> <span>When was ENIAC first shown to work?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Comparison_table" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Comparison_table"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">17</span> <span>Comparison table</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">5 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Comparison_table-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">18</span> <span>Honeywell v. Sperry Rand Ruling summary</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">5 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"Rewiring_to_reprogram"_vs._Turing-completeness_of_ENIAC?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"Rewiring_to_reprogram"_vs._Turing-completeness_of_ENIAC?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">19</span> <span>"Rewiring to reprogram" vs. Turing-completeness of ENIAC?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-"Rewiring_to_reprogram"_vs._Turing-completeness_of_ENIAC?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Electronic_Numerical_Integrator_and_Calculator?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Electronic_Numerical_Integrator_and_Calculator?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">20</span> <span>Electronic Numerical Integrator and <i>Calculator</i>?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Electronic_Numerical_Integrator_and_Calculator?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Court_case" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Court_case"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">21</span> <span>Court case</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Court_case-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Picture" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Picture"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">22</span> <span>Picture</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Picture-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Z3_part_of_war_effort?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Z3_part_of_war_effort?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">23</span> <span>Z3 part of war effort?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Z3_part_of_war_effort?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Speed" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Speed"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">24</span> <span>Speed</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Speed-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Architecture!" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Architecture!"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">25</span> <span>Architecture!</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <button aria-controls="toc-Architecture!-sublist" class="cdx-button cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only vector-toc-toggle"> <span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-expand"></span> <span>Toggle Architecture! subsection</span> </button> <ul id="toc-Architecture!-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> <li id="toc-An_uncommon_perspective_on_origins_of_the_ENIAC's_architecture" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-2"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#An_uncommon_perspective_on_origins_of_the_ENIAC's_architecture"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">25.1</span> <span>An uncommon perspective on origins of the ENIAC's architecture</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-An_uncommon_perspective_on_origins_of_the_ENIAC's_architecture-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Turing_completeness" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Turing_completeness"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">26</span> <span>Turing completeness</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Turing_completeness-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Programmability_and_von_Neumann" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Programmability_and_von_Neumann"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">27</span> <span>Programmability and von Neumann</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Programmability_and_von_Neumann-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-The_Story_Interview" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#The_Story_Interview"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">28</span> <span>The Story Interview</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-The_Story_Interview-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-First_sentence_claims" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#First_sentence_claims"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">29</span> <span>First sentence claims</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">8 comments</span> <ul id="toc-First_sentence_claims-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Coders_or_Programmers" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Coders_or_Programmers"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">30</span> <span>Coders or Programmers</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Coders_or_Programmers-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Programming" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Programming"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">31</span> <span>Programming</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">7 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Programming-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Size_and_Reliability" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Size_and_Reliability"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">32</span> <span>Size and Reliability</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Size_and_Reliability-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">33</span> <span>Colossus computer a few months earlier than ENIAC</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">7 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-...and_Calculator,_or_..._and_Computer" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#...and_Calculator,_or_..._and_Computer"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">34</span> <span>...and Calculator, or ... and Computer</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">5 comments</span> <ul id="toc-...and_Calculator,_or_..._and_Computer-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Tube_failures_again" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Tube_failures_again"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">35</span> <span>Tube failures again</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Tube_failures_again-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Mention_of_hydrogen_bomb_belongs_in_lead?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Mention_of_hydrogen_bomb_belongs_in_lead?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">36</span> <span>Mention of hydrogen bomb belongs in lead?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">9 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Mention_of_hydrogen_bomb_belongs_in_lead?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Inexact_information?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Inexact_information?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">37</span> <span>Inexact information?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Inexact_information?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Lack_of_Information" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Lack_of_Information"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">38</span> <span>Lack of Information</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Lack_of_Information-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Error_in_caption?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Error_in_caption?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">39</span> <span>Error in caption?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Error_in_caption?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Programming_(first_2_paragraphs)" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Programming_(first_2_paragraphs)"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">40</span> <span>Programming (first 2 paragraphs)</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Programming_(first_2_paragraphs)-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Glen_Beck_in_picture" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Glen_Beck_in_picture"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">41</span> <span>Glen Beck in picture</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Glen_Beck_in_picture-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Not_A_Computer" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Not_A_Computer"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">42</span> <span>Not A Computer</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Not_A_Computer-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Suggested_addition_to_"Parts_on_Display"" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Suggested_addition_to_"Parts_on_Display""> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">43</span> <span>Suggested addition to "Parts on Display"</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Suggested_addition_to_"Parts_on_Display"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"Artificially_darkened"_photo?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"Artificially_darkened"_photo?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">44</span> <span>"Artificially darkened" photo?</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-"Artificially_darkened"_photo?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-External_links_modified" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#External_links_modified"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">45</span> <span>External links modified</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-External_links_modified-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"Betty_Holberton_(née_Snyder)_continued_on_to_invent_the_first_sorting_algorithm"" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"Betty_Holberton_(née_Snyder)_continued_on_to_invent_the_first_sorting_algorithm""> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">46</span> <span>"Betty Holberton (née Snyder) continued on to invent the first sorting algorithm"</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-"Betty_Holberton_(née_Snyder)_continued_on_to_invent_the_first_sorting_algorithm"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-First_put_to_work_in_1945_or_1946?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#First_put_to_work_in_1945_or_1946?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">47</span> <span>First put to work in 1945 or 1946?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-First_put_to_work_in_1945_or_1946?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Wrong_information_on_tube_count?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Wrong_information_on_tube_count?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">48</span> <span>Wrong information on tube count?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Wrong_information_on_tube_count?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-There_was_no_crawling" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#There_was_no_crawling"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">49</span> <span>There was no crawling</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">7 comments</span> <ul id="toc-There_was_no_crawling-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Colossus" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Colossus"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">50</span> <span>Colossus</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">6 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Colossus-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agenda" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agenda"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">51</span> <span>Typical American Centric nonsensical const6ructed history with a political agenda</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agenda-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Cost" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Cost"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">52</span> <span>Cost</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Cost-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Who_had_the_idea_of_the_stored-program_computer?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Who_had_the_idea_of_the_stored-program_computer?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">53</span> <span>Who had the idea of the stored-program computer?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Who_had_the_idea_of_the_stored-program_computer?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Acronym" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Acronym"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">54</span> <span>Acronym</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">12 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Acronym-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Order_of_the_names" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Order_of_the_names"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">55</span> <span>Order of the names</span> </div> </a> <span 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.class-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .class-category{background-color:#FFDB58}.mw-parser-output .class-disambig{background-color:#00FA9A}.mw-parser-output .class-draft{background-color:#E7B198}.mw-parser-output .class-file{background-color:#DDCCFF}.mw-parser-output .class-future{background-color:#B4BBFF}.mw-parser-output .class-portal{background-color:#DDB1BC}.mw-parser-output .class-project{background-color:#C0C090}.mw-parser-output .class-redirect{background-color:#C0C0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-sia{background-color:#E9DAFF}.mw-parser-output .class-user{background-color:#DDD06A}.mw-parser-output .class-template{background-color:#FBCEB1}.mw-parser-output .class-unassessed{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .conflict{border:0.2em solid red}.mw-parser-output .inactive-wikiproject .wpb-header-bubbles{color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_kcontrol.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Crystal_kcontrol.svg/25px-Crystal_kcontrol.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Crystal_kcontrol.svg/38px-Crystal_kcontrol.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Crystal_kcontrol.svg/50px-Crystal_kcontrol.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computing" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Computing">Computing</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-high">High‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_kcontrol.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Crystal_kcontrol.svg/70px-Crystal_kcontrol.svg.png" decoding="async" width="70" height="70" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Crystal_kcontrol.svg/105px-Crystal_kcontrol.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Crystal_kcontrol.svg/140px-Crystal_kcontrol.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computing" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Computing">WikiProject Computing</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Computer" title="Computer">computers</a>, <a href="/wiki/Computing" title="Computing">computing</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Information_technology" title="Information technology">information technology</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Computing" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Computing">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Computing</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Computing</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Computing</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Computing</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-high"><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_Computing_articles" title="Category:High-importance Computing articles">High</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>High-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computing/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Computing/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Analizator_rownan_rozniczkowych.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Analizator_rownan_rozniczkowych.jpg/44px-Analizator_rownan_rozniczkowych.jpg" decoding="async" width="44" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Analizator_rownan_rozniczkowych.jpg/67px-Analizator_rownan_rozniczkowych.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Analizator_rownan_rozniczkowych.jpg/88px-Analizator_rownan_rozniczkowych.jpg 2x" data-file-width="800" data-file-height="459"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computing/Early_computers_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Computing/Early computers task force">Early computers task force</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Early_computers_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Early computers articles">Top-importance</a>).</td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_ksim.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Nuvola_apps_ksim.png/25px-Nuvola_apps_ksim.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Nuvola_apps_ksim.png/38px-Nuvola_apps_ksim.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Nuvola_apps_ksim.png/50px-Nuvola_apps_ksim.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computing/Computer_hardware_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Computing/Computer hardware task force">Computer hardware task force</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:Top-importance_Computer_hardware_articles" title="Category:Top-importance Computer hardware articles">Top-importance</a>).</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:BillyPenn.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/BillyPenn.jpg/35px-BillyPenn.jpg" decoding="async" width="35" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/BillyPenn.jpg/53px-BillyPenn.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/BillyPenn.jpg/70px-BillyPenn.jpg 2x" data-file-width="350" data-file-height="245"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philadelphia" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philadelphia">Philadelphia</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-high">High‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:BillyPenn.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/BillyPenn.jpg/80px-BillyPenn.jpg" decoding="async" width="80" height="56" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/BillyPenn.jpg/120px-BillyPenn.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/BillyPenn.jpg/160px-BillyPenn.jpg 2x" data-file-width="350" data-file-height="245"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1259569809">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Flag_of_Philadelphia%2C_Pennsylvania.svg/32px-Flag_of_Philadelphia%2C_Pennsylvania.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Flag_of_Philadelphia%2C_Pennsylvania.svg/48px-Flag_of_Philadelphia%2C_Pennsylvania.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Flag_of_Philadelphia%2C_Pennsylvania.svg/64px-Flag_of_Philadelphia%2C_Pennsylvania.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="800" data-file-height="533"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Philadelphia" title="Portal:Philadelphia">Philadelphia portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philadelphia" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philadelphia">WikiProject Philadelphia</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Philadelphia" title="Philadelphia">Philadelphia</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Philadelphia" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Philadelphia">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Philadelphia</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Philadelphia</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Philadelphia</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Philadelphia</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-high"><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_Philadelphia_articles" title="Category:High-importance Philadelphia articles">High</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>High-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philadelphia/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philadelphia/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg/29px-UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg.png" decoding="async" width="29" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg/44px-UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg/58px-UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="216"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_University_of_Pennsylvania" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject University of Pennsylvania">University of Pennsylvania</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-low">Low‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg/80px-UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="69" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg/120px-UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg/160px-UPenn_shield_with_banner.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="250" data-file-height="216"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_University_of_Pennsylvania" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject University of Pennsylvania">WikiProject University of Pennsylvania</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/University_of_Pennsylvania" title="University of Pennsylvania">University of Pennsylvania</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_University_of_Pennsylvania" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject University of Pennsylvania">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">University of Pennsylvania</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject University of Pennsylvania</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject University of Pennsylvania</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">University of Pennsylvania</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-low"><a href="/wiki/Category:Low-importance_University_of_Pennsylvania_articles" title="Category:Low-importance University of Pennsylvania articles">Low</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Low-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team/Assessment#Importance_scale" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Waricon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/25px-Waricon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/38px-Waricon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/50px-Waricon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="140" data-file-height="140"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history">Military history</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Military_science,_technology,_and_theory_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Military science, technology, and theory task force">Technology</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/North_American_military_history_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/North American military history task force">North America</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/United_States_military_history_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/United States military history task force">United States</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/World_War_II_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/World War II task force">World War II</a></span> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Waricon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/50px-Waricon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/75px-Waricon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Waricon.svg/100px-Waricon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="140" data-file-height="140"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history">Military history WikiProject</a></b>. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Open_tasks" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Open tasks">list of open tasks</a>. To use this banner, please see the <a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Military_history" title="Template:WikiProject Military history">full instructions</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Military history</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Military history</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">military history</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess-b" style="padding-bottom:5px"><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment/B-Class_criteria" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment/B-Class criteria"><img alt="B checklist" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Bclass-checklist.svg/20px-Bclass-checklist.svg.png" decoding="async" width="20" height="20" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Bclass-checklist.svg/30px-Bclass-checklist.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Bclass-checklist.svg/40px-Bclass-checklist.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="100" data-file-height="100"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="wpb-collapsed-notes"><table class="plainlinks mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><tbody><tr><th class="wpb-collapsed-head mbox-text" colspan="3" style="font-weight:normal">This article has been checked against the following <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Assessment#Quality_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment">criteria</a></b> for B-class status:</th><td style="min-width:3em"></td></tr><tr><td style="font-size:90%"><ol><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Referencing and citation: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Coverage and accuracy: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" 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style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li><li><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/16px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/24px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/32px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span> Supporting materials: <span style="font-style:italic">criterion met</span></li></ol></td><td style="font-size:88%"></td><td class="empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" class="wpb-collapsed-notes"><table class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"><tbody><tr><th colspan="3" class="wpb-collapsed-head">Associated task forces:</th></tr><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-gutter" style="min-width:50px"><span class="wpb-iefix">/ </span></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Fire_and_movement.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Fire_and_movement.svg/43px-Fire_and_movement.svg.png" decoding="async" width="43" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Fire_and_movement.svg/64px-Fire_and_movement.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Fire_and_movement.svg/85px-Fire_and_movement.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="842" data-file-height="595"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Military_science,_technology,_and_theory_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Military science, technology, and theory task force">Military science, technology, and theory task force</a></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:North_America_satellite_orthographic.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/North_America_satellite_orthographic.jpg/28px-North_America_satellite_orthographic.jpg" decoding="async" width="28" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/North_America_satellite_orthographic.jpg/42px-North_America_satellite_orthographic.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/North_America_satellite_orthographic.jpg/56px-North_America_satellite_orthographic.jpg 2x" data-file-width="1624" data-file-height="1748"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/North_American_military_history_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/North American military history task force">North American military history task force</a></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:United_States_Arms.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/United_States_Arms.svg/27px-United_States_Arms.svg.png" decoding="async" width="27" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/United_States_Arms.svg/41px-United_States_Arms.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/United_States_Arms.svg/54px-United_States_Arms.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="660"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/United_States_military_history_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/United States military history task force">United States military history task force</a></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Sherman_Tank_WW2.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/Sherman_Tank_WW2.jpg/43px-Sherman_Tank_WW2.jpg" decoding="async" width="43" height="24" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/Sherman_Tank_WW2.jpg/65px-Sherman_Tank_WW2.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/Sherman_Tank_WW2.jpg/86px-Sherman_Tank_WW2.jpg 2x" data-file-width="997" data-file-height="557"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/World_War_II_task_force" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/World War II task force">World War II task force</a></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="How_to_get_access_source?" data-mw-thread-id="h-How_to_get_access_source?"><span id="How_to_get_access_source.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-How_to_get_access_source?"></span>How to get access source?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-How_to_get_access_source?"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: How to get access source?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>How do I get access sources like Goldstine, p. 22<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup>? </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="World's_First?" data-mw-thread-id="h-World's_First?-2012-10-28T20:51:00.000Z"><span id="World.27s_First.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-World's_First?-2012-10-28T20:51:00.000Z"></span>World's First?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-World's_First?-2012-10-28T20:51:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: World's First?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Fdsdh1-2012-10-28T20:51:00.000Z-World's_First?"></span>The British produced 2 computers during WW2, Collossus and another more advanced one I can't remember the name of (<a href="/wiki/User:Fdsdh1" title="User:Fdsdh1">Fdsdh1</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Fdsdh1" title="User talk:Fdsdh1">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Fdsdh1-2012-10-28T20:51:00.000Z-World's_First?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:51, 28 October 2012 (UTC)</a>)<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Fdsdh1-2012-10-28T20:51:00.000Z-World's_First?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Fdsdh1-2012-10-28T20:51:00.000Z-World's_First?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wa3frp-2012-10-28T21:14:00.000Z-Fdsdh1-2012-10-28T20:51:00.000Z"></span>The ten British Colossus computers (used for cryptanalysis starting in 1943) were designed by Tommy Flowers. The Colossus computers were digital, electronic, and were programmed by plugboard and switches, but they were dedicated to code breaking and not general purpose.<a href="/wiki/User:Wa3frp" title="User:Wa3frp">Wa3frp</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wa3frp" title="User talk:Wa3frp">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Wa3frp-2012-10-28T21:14:00.000Z-Fdsdh1-2012-10-28T20:51:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wa3frp-2012-10-28T21:14:00.000Z-Fdsdh1-2012-10-28T20:51:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wa3frp-2012-10-28T21:14:00.000Z-Fdsdh1-2012-10-28T20:51:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:44:00.000Z-Wa3frp-2012-10-28T21:14:00.000Z"></span>Sorry the ENIAC was rather a giant electronic calculating machine not general purpose in the modern sense so using that definition the Colossus position stands and before that came the Manchester SSEM. <a href="/wiki/User:Twobells" title="User:Twobells">Twobells</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Twobells" title="User talk:Twobells">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:44:00.000Z-Wa3frp-2012-10-28T21:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:44, 31 August 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:44:00.000Z-Wa3frp-2012-10-28T21:14:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:44:00.000Z-Wa3frp-2012-10-28T21:14:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Brianetta-2013-02-11T10:53:00.000Z-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:44:00.000Z"></span>I think it's probably the case that the dedication to code breaking wasn't so much a technical fact, as simply being the purpose for which they were built. They didn't do other things because that wasn't what the British government was paying that department to do.<a href="/wiki/User:Brianetta" title="User:Brianetta">Brianetta</a> <sup><i>Brian Ronald, UK.</i> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Brianetta" title="User talk:Brianetta">Talk here</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Brianetta-2013-02-11T10:53:00.000Z-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:53, 11 February 2013 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Brianetta-2013-02-11T10:53:00.000Z-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Brianetta-2013-02-11T10:53:00.000Z-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:44:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Oscar111811-20231004233200-Brianetta-2013-02-11T10:53:00.000Z"></span>the ABC (Atanasoff Berry Computer) was the first the first automatic electronic digital computer not the ENIAC. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Oscar111811&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Oscar111811 (page does not exist)">Oscar111811</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Oscar111811" title="User talk:Oscar111811">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Oscar111811-20231004233200-Brianetta-2013-02-11T10:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:32, 4 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Oscar111811-20231004233200-Brianetta-2013-02-11T10:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Oscar111811-20231004233200-Brianetta-2013-02-11T10:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-20231005001700-Oscar111811-20231004233200"></span>That was a special-purpose machine. All it could do was solve a system of linear equations. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-20231005001700-Oscar111811-20231004233200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:17, 5 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-20231005001700-Oscar111811-20231004233200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-20231005001700-Oscar111811-20231004233200"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-130.123.189.140-2013-10-14T23:57:00.000Z-World's_First?"></span>Agreed. This article wants to describe ENIAC as the first electronic computer (which is how it was described when launched in 1946) but it was by no means the first and the technology was not invented or developed by the ENIAC builders, rather coped from the British colossus thanks to a deal done over atomic technology. I think the problem is that colossus was a secret for 40 years so the lie of ENIAC being the first was told so often that it has become the truth in some peoples minds. Colossus was kept secret because the Russians were re-using captured German encoding machines and the British continued to intercept and decipher Russian communications until the 60s. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/130.123.189.140" title="Special:Contributions/130.123.189.140">130.123.189.140</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:130.123.189.140&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:130.123.189.140 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-130.123.189.140-2013-10-14T23:57:00.000Z-World's_First?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:57, 14 October 2013 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-130.123.189.140-2013-10-14T23:57:00.000Z-World's_First?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-130.123.189.140-2013-10-14T23:57:00.000Z-World's_First?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Oscar111811-20231004233400-130.123.189.140-2013-10-14T23:57:00.000Z"></span>the ABC (Atanasoff Berry Computer) was the first the first automatic electronic digital computer not the ENIAC. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Oscar111811&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Oscar111811 (page does not exist)">Oscar111811</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Oscar111811" title="User talk:Oscar111811">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Oscar111811-20231004233400-130.123.189.140-2013-10-14T23:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:34, 4 October 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Oscar111811-20231004233400-130.123.189.140-2013-10-14T23:57:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Oscar111811-20231004233400-130.123.189.140-2013-10-14T23:57:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sobewong-2016-03-04T18:59:00.000Z-World's_First?"></span>Even the Colossus was not the first electronic computer, as the Berry-Atanasoff computer had been built and tested over a year before the Colossus. It is true though that the Colossus was programmable, but only partially so, and was designed for a very specific task. The ENIAC was the first 'fully' programmable electronic computer. the article is accurate in describing as the first 'general use' computer.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>Wouldn't the Mark 1 be considered first over the ENIAC? The Mark 1 was officially presented by Harvard university on August 24, 1944 (found in Mark 1 wikipedia article) which was before the official presentation of ENIAC. Would it not be considered first because they are in different categories if they are in different categories of computer? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Sobewong&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Sobewong (page does not exist)">Sobewong</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sobewong&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Sobewong (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Sobewong-2016-03-04T18:59:00.000Z-World's_First?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:59, 4 March 2016 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sobewong-2016-03-04T18:59:00.000Z-World's_First?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sobewong-2016-03-04T18:59:00.000Z-World's_First?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TedColes-2016-03-05T13:07:00.000Z-Sobewong-2016-03-04T18:59:00.000Z"></span>The <a href="/wiki/Harvard_Mark_I" title="Harvard Mark I">Harvard Mark I</a> was an electromechanical, not an electronic device, as was the <a href="/wiki/Z3_(computer)" title="Z3 (computer)">Z3</a>. The <a href="/wiki/Atanasoff%E2%80%93Berry_computer" title="Atanasoff–Berry computer">Atanasoff–Berry computer</a> was not programmable and its development was abandoned before it worked satisfactorily. So Colossus's claim to be the first computer is dependent on the set of adjectives used before the word "computer". Colossus was digital, electronic and binary, but it was programmed by setting switches and connecting patch leads, as was ENIAC. It counted the result of a wide range of <a href="/wiki/Boolean_function" title="Boolean function">Boolean functions</a> but did not have the range of <a href="/wiki/Arithmetic_function" title="Arithmetic function">arithmetic functions</a> of ENIAC which had units for addition and subtraction, multiplication, division and square rooting. ENIAC could therefore perform a greater range of functions and can arguably add "general-purpose" to the set of adjectives, although it did use decimal rather than binary arithmetic. <a href="/wiki/User:TedColes" title="User:TedColes">TedColes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TedColes" title="User talk:TedColes">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-TedColes-2016-03-05T13:07:00.000Z-Sobewong-2016-03-04T18:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:07, 5 March 2016 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TedColes-2016-03-05T13:07:00.000Z-Sobewong-2016-03-04T18:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TedColes-2016-03-05T13:07:00.000Z-Sobewong-2016-03-04T18:59:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-211.28.193.236-2016-08-31T10:32:00.000Z-World's_First?"></span>The definition of a computer is 'an electronic device which is capable of receiving information (data) in a particular form and of performing a sequence of operations in accordance with a predetermined but variable set of procedural instructions (program) to produce a result in the form of information or signals.'<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-2"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> Colossus fits this definition perfectly and came before ENIAC, claiming otherwise is simply bias. Claiming ENIAC is first is factually incorrect (I'd argue it was 11th but donn't want to waste the time). I would suggest it's claim to be first be more carefully documented. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/211.28.193.236" title="Special:Contributions/211.28.193.236">211.28.193.236</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:211.28.193.236&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:211.28.193.236 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-211.28.193.236-2016-08-31T10:32:00.000Z-World's_First?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:32, 31 August 2016 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-211.28.193.236-2016-08-31T10:32:00.000Z-World's_First?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-211.28.193.236-2016-08-31T10:32:00.000Z-World's_First?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""The_First_What?"_Round_15" data-mw-thread-id="h-"The_First_What?"_Round_15-2019-03-27T00:50:00.000Z"><span id=".22The_First_What.3F.22_Round_15"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"The_First_What?"_Round_15-2019-03-27T00:50:00.000Z"></span>"The First What?" Round 15<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"The_First_What?"_Round_15-2019-03-27T00:50:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: "The First What?" Round 15"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zebbie-2019-03-27T00:50:00.000Z-"The_First_What?"_Round_15"></span>I am proposing (that we revert to): ENIAC was the first electronic general-purpose computer. For a little while, but not too long, the ENIAC page has opened: "ENIAC was amongst the earliest electronic general-purpose computers made. " This is incorrect, there were no other computers at that time that were both electronic and general-purpose, so it was "the first" of that description. "It was amongst the earliest computers" might also be correct - but all of the other early computers on Wikipedia are proudly opening with a bold first. For example -- here's the current rundown, as of March 27, 2019: </p><p>The Atanasoff–Berry computer (ABC) was the first automatic electronic digital computer. Colossus is thus regarded[3] as the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer The Z3 was the world's first working programmable, fully automatic digital computer. The Manchester Baby, was the world's first electronic stored-program computer. </p><p>So in line with that, we go back to the two adjectives that set it apart from the others: ENIAC was the first electronic general-purpose computer. </p><p>I realize there has been a war between "the first computers" on Wikipedia, going back a decade or more, so I do not do this "lightly." I think this accurately reflects what the majority of historians and Wikipedia editors think. I was considering also adding that it was the biggest and most bad-ass looking, but refrained. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Zebbie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Zebbie (page does not exist)">Zebbie</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Zebbie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Zebbie (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Zebbie-2019-03-27T00:50:00.000Z-"The_First_What?"_Round_15" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:50, 27 March 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zebbie-2019-03-27T00:50:00.000Z-"The_First_What?"_Round_15"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zebbie-2019-03-27T00:50:00.000Z-"The_First_What?"_Round_15"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-2019-03-27T02:42:00.000Z-Zebbie-2019-03-27T00:50:00.000Z"></span>I agree that it was the first electronic general-purpose computer. Earlier general-purpose computers were electo-mechanical. ABC and Colossus were special-purpose computers. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-2019-03-27T02:42:00.000Z-Zebbie-2019-03-27T00:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:42, 27 March 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-2019-03-27T02:42:00.000Z-Zebbie-2019-03-27T00:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-2019-03-27T02:42:00.000Z-Zebbie-2019-03-27T00:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chadnibal-2020-10-15T11:53:00.000Z-"The_First_What?"_Round_15"></span>I don't agree, artillery tables and bomb calculations aren't what I could call general purpose. General purpose computer isn't a clearly defined, common term. I was disturbed this entry currently seems like all the books I read growing up which made the mistake ENIAC was first because Colossus was still secret. I think we have a very good argument for first electronic digital Turing-complete computer, perhaps general purpose with the later addition of stored programs, but it wasn't the first at that either. I really feel it would be better to go back to mentioning Colossus in the introduction. I'm American, but after visiting Bletchley Park I really feel Tommy Flowers should get his proper due and we shouldn't mince definitions like Chekhov from Star Trek to give the US more credit than it deserves. "it vas Russian, Sergey Lebedev, who invented fyirst computer" </p><p>Is there clear proof that the ENIAC team knew about and built onto the design of Colossus or not? <a href="/wiki/User:Chadnibal" title="User:Chadnibal">Chadnibal</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chadnibal" title="User talk:Chadnibal">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Chadnibal-2020-10-15T11:53:00.000Z-"The_First_What?"_Round_15" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:53, 15 October 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chadnibal-2020-10-15T11:53:00.000Z-"The_First_What?"_Round_15"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chadnibal-2020-10-15T11:53:00.000Z-"The_First_What?"_Round_15"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-2020-10-15T16:53:00.000Z-Chadnibal-2020-10-15T11:53:00.000Z"></span>Colossus was definitely a special-purpose machine. ENIAC was built for calculating artillery tables but it wasn't limited to that. The first major work done by ENIAC was on calculations for the design of the hydrogen bomb (nothing like artillery tables). In at least one of the books about ENIAC there is a list of all of the different types of programs it ran. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-2020-10-15T16:53:00.000Z-Chadnibal-2020-10-15T11:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:53, 15 October 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-2020-10-15T16:53:00.000Z-Chadnibal-2020-10-15T11:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-2020-10-15T16:53:00.000Z-Chadnibal-2020-10-15T11:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2406:E002:6CBA:EB01:89B1:FA73:359C:C0FD-20220805002200-"The_First_What?"_Round_15"></span>It's pretty clear that there is no actual consensus or authoritative source for what was the "first" computer in this context and it's kind of ridiculous that multiple Wikipedia pages make competing claims. It would actually make more sense, and be less confusing for readers, if they were ALL edited to say something along the lines of "amongst the earliest electronic general-purpose computers made". <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2406:E002:6CBA:EB01:89B1:FA73:359C:C0FD" title="Special:Contributions/2406:E002:6CBA:EB01:89B1:FA73:359C:C0FD">2406:E002:6CBA:EB01:89B1:FA73:359C:C0FD</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2406:E002:6CBA:EB01:89B1:FA73:359C:C0FD&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2406:E002:6CBA:EB01:89B1:FA73:359C:C0FD (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-2406:E002:6CBA:EB01:89B1:FA73:359C:C0FD-20220805002200-"The_First_What?"_Round_15" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:22, 5 August 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2406:E002:6CBA:EB01:89B1:FA73:359C:C0FD-20220805002200-"The_First_What?"_Round_15"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2406:E002:6CBA:EB01:89B1:FA73:359C:C0FD-20220805002200-"The_First_What?"_Round_15"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Contents-at-top" data-mw-thread-id="h-Contents-at-top"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Contents-at-top"></span>Contents-at-top<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Contents-at-top"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Contents-at-top"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>I believe there is some controversy wether the ENIAC was a full-featured computer or just a powerful calculator. Who knows more about it ? </p><p>I believe the Atanasoff-Berry people sued in court and won for the title of <i>first electronic computer</i> <a href="/wiki/User:Vera_Cruz" title="User:Vera Cruz">Vera Cruz</a> </p> <dl><dd>It was a full computer, but very primitive by our standards. It was even the machine that first implemented "branching" of the program based on tests performed on its data (as program and data were both coded as pulse streams all that was needed to implement this feature was to connect an output data pulse stream from one unit into a program input of another unit, this idea was much less obvious to implement on earlier calculators that represented program and data entirely differently). --- <a href="/wiki/User:RTC" title="User:RTC">RTC</a> 22:43 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd>Actually it was Honeywell that brought the lawsuit and it was not for title of <i>first electronic computer</i>, it was to break the Univac computer patent by proving it was derived from prior art and thus not a valid patent. --- <a href="/wiki/User:RTC" title="User:RTC">RTC</a> 22:43 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)</dd></dl> <p>I seem to remember an actual lawsuit over which was the first electronic computer, and ENIAC lost. <a href="/wiki/User:Vera_Cruz" title="User:Vera Cruz">Vera Cruz</a> </p> <dl><dd>Yes, but it was a patent suit over <i>deritive work from prior art</i> not over the title of <b>first</b> of anything. The major difference however that ENIAC did have that the Atanasoff-Berry machine did not was that ENIAC was programable. --- <a href="/wiki/User:RTC" title="User:RTC">RTC</a> 22:50 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)</dd></dl> <p>So is ENIAC the first electronic computer or not? Cuz I remember a lawsuit that settled that question... <a href="/wiki/User:Vera_Cruz" title="User:Vera Cruz">Vera Cruz</a> </p> <dl><dd>No. But it was the first <i>programable</i> electronic digital computer. --- <a href="/wiki/User:RTC" title="User:RTC">RTC</a> 22:53 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd>(at least in the US, I believe the British Colossus actually beat in on that title, but that was a special purpose machine and remaind classified until about 1970. Lets call ENIAC the first general purpose programmable electronic digital computer. --- <a href="/wiki/User:RTC" title="User:RTC">RTC</a> 22:56 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>"first general purpose programmable electronic digital computer" --- man that is a long title :-) <a href="/wiki/User:RTC" title="User:RTC">RTC</a> 22:58 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>So? You can have "biggest little town in the state:. :) <a href="/wiki/User:Tannin" title="User:Tannin">Tannin</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p>The we also have "first general purpose <i>freely</i> programmable electronic digital computer" ;-) // ~~¨ </p><p>The Colossus was programmable and general... "Colossus was the world's first electronic digital programmable computer.[7] It used a large number of valves (vacuum tubes). It had paper-tape input and was capable of being configured to perform a variety of boolean logical operations on its data, but it was not Turing-complete."<a href="/wiki/User:Chrisp7" title="User:Chrisp7">Chrisp7</a> 22:58 May 30, 2014 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd>It was not 'general' in that its programmable capabilities were very limited, and was designed for specific task, whereas the ENIAC was not.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="ENIAC_designed_and_used_to_be_Turing-complete?" data-mw-thread-id="h-ENIAC_designed_and_used_to_be_Turing-complete?-2009-02-01T10:16:00.000Z"><span id="ENIAC_designed_and_used_to_be_Turing-complete.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-ENIAC_designed_and_used_to_be_Turing-complete?-2009-02-01T10:16:00.000Z"></span>ENIAC designed and used to be Turing-complete?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-ENIAC_designed_and_used_to_be_Turing-complete?-2009-02-01T10:16:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: ENIAC designed and used to be Turing-complete?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lawdroid-2009-02-01T10:16:00.000Z-ENIAC_designed_and_used_to_be_Turing-complete?"></span>Someone wrote: "ENIAC also differed from earlier calculating devices in that it was designed and used to be Turing-complete — that is, a truly universal computing device". What is the evidence for this claim? ENIAC was meant to solve differential equations etc., and to my knowledge its builders were not interested in Turing-completeness, although maybe they got it as a by-product. Are there any documents supporting this statement? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Z3&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Z3 (page does not exist)">Z3</a> 16:33, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>The issue is not documenting the statement, but tuning it to say what it surely intends. The point of the Turing-machine model is that it takes almost nothing to be Turing complete, but that near-nothing is the important distinction between a calculator and a fully programmable device. Yes, they cared about it: they were responsible engineers who knew of Turing's work, and they would not consider a programmable device short of T-C one, unless they already knew <i><b>exactly</b></i> what program they were going to use.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>Numerical approximation, including diff-equ, was a well-researched subject, and they knew they would do a lot of optimizing of algorithms. T-C is not all that they would have considered bcz efficiency of computation is also crucial, but they absolutely wanted to know they weren't going to get bitten from behind when they tried to tune the thing up, by the one thing they knew how to guarantee: every flow of control is possible, even if not efficient. If this is not clear, it's a sign of the need for an article on something like <a href="/w/index.php?title=Foundations_of_engineering_design&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Foundations of engineering design (page does not exist)">Foundations of engineering design</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Jerzy" title="User:Jerzy">Jerzy</a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jerzy" title="User talk:Jerzy">(t)</a> 20:14, 2004 Mar 22 (UTC)</dd></dl> <dl><dd>Well, the reason why I am bringing this up: <a href="/wiki/Konrad_Zuse" title="Konrad Zuse">Konrad Zuse</a>'s earlier Z3 also was Turing-equivalent, but back then Zuse and others didn't care and didn't even know; they just wanted to be able to program their machines for the typical engineering applications of that era. None of these old machines had enough storage to exploit Turing completeness, as suggested by the current version of the <a href="/wiki/ENIAC" title="ENIAC">ENIAC</a> article. As far as I know, none of them was used to implement compilers translating one language into another (language independence is the central aspect of Turing completeness). I guess one should delete this. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Z3&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Z3 (page does not exist)">Z3</a> 09:31, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)</dd></dl> <p>The sign at the Eniac museum at the Moore School of Electrical Engineering states that Eniac was the world's first "Electronic Large-Scale, General-Purpose Digital Computer", and I believe that all the qualifiers are necessary to make the statement true. Colossus was an electronic, large-scale digital computer, but not general-purpose. The Z3 was a large-scale general-purpose digital computer, but not electronic. The Atanasoff-Berry device was an electronic digital computer, but was not general-purpose, and perhaps not large-scale. I cannot think offhand of an electronic large-scale general-purpose non-digital computer. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Dominus" title="User:Dominus">Dominus</a> 14:44, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>ENIAC was general-purpose, but not [Turing complete]. This is because no finite computational device meets that standard. <a href="/wiki/User:Lawdroid" title="User:Lawdroid">Lawdroid</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Lawdroid" title="User talk:Lawdroid">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Lawdroid-2009-02-01T10:16:00.000Z-ENIAC_designed_and_used_to_be_Turing-complete?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:16, 1 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lawdroid-2009-02-01T10:16:00.000Z-ENIAC_designed_and_used_to_be_Turing-complete?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lawdroid-2009-02-01T10:16:00.000Z-ENIAC_designed_and_used_to_be_Turing-complete?"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2009-02-03T08:21:00.000Z-Lawdroid-2009-02-01T10:16:00.000Z"></span>The above statement limits the term "Turing complete" in a way that (a) is not in line with the term's typical use and (b) renders the term meaningless as applied to practical devices. When the term "Turing complete" is applied to a computing device, it means that a computer would have all the capabilities of a universal Turing machine given infinite memory store. The <a href="/wiki/Turing_completeness" title="Turing completeness">Turing completeness</a> article covers this. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2009-02-03T08:21:00.000Z-Lawdroid-2009-02-01T10:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:21, 3 February 2009 (UTC)</a>.<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2009-02-03T08:21:00.000Z-Lawdroid-2009-02-01T10:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2009-02-03T08:21:00.000Z-Lawdroid-2009-02-01T10:16:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC" data-mw-thread-id="h-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC-2005-07-20T06:05:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC-2005-07-20T06:05:00.000Z"></span>The Women who Programmed ENIAC<span data-mw-comment-end="h-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC-2005-07-20T06:05:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: The Women who Programmed ENIAC"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rob*-2005-07-20T06:05:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC"></span>"Two women operating ENIAC" is all we have to say about the women who programmed ENIAC? The source site for the image (<a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://ftp.arl.mil/ftp/historic-computers/">http://ftp.arl.mil/ftp/historic-computers/</a>) captions it as follows: </p> <blockquote> <p>Two women operating the ENIAC's main control panel while the machine was still located at the Moore School. "U.S. Army Photo" from the archives of the ARL Technical Library. Left: Betty Jennings (Mrs. Bryant) Right: Frances Bilas (Mrs. Spence) </p> </blockquote> <p>We should at least mention the two best-known ENIAC programmers, Betty (Snyder) Holberton and Jean (Jennings) Bartik. </p><p>Betty Holberton <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.livewirecom.com/columns/97.05.html">http://www.livewirecom.com/columns/97.05.html</a> </p><p>Jean Bartik <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blbartik.htm">http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blbartik.htm</a> </p><p><i>The front lines: History of software begins with the work of some brainy women</i> Petzinger, Thomas Jr; The Wall Street Journal; Nov 15, 1996; B1; <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.haven.org/~dkap/writings/History_of_computers">http://www.haven.org/~dkap/writings/History_of_computers</a> (wsj.com confirms that an article with this title and author was published, but they don't post archive full-text online) </p><p>--<a href="/wiki/User:Rob*" title="User:Rob*">Rob*</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Rob*-2005-07-20T06:05:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:05, 20 July 2005 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rob*-2005-07-20T06:05:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rob*-2005-07-20T06:05:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:55:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC"></span>Check out "The Women of ENIAC" in IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, 18:13-28 (1996), and also <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,3711,00.html">http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,3711,00.html</a> and <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.witi.com/center/witimuseum/halloffame/1997/eniac.php">http://www.witi.com/center/witimuseum/halloffame/1997/eniac.php</a>. </p><p>The six women who did most of the actual programming of ENIAC were inducted in 1997 into the Women in Technology International Hall of Fame. They were Kathleen McNulty Mauchly Antonelli, Jean Jennings Bartik, Frances Snyder Holberton, Marlyn Wescoff Meltzer, Frances Bilas Spence and Ruth Lichterman Teitelbaum. (These are their married names, from the 1997 induction.) </p><p>-- B.Kell, 1 Dec 2005 </p> <dl><dd>I think the most helpful thing to do would be to refer to the ENIAC programmers by their contemporary names, and leave their married names to be elaborated in their individual articles. Otherwise we put ourselves in the position of referring to Kay McNulty as "Kathleen Rita McNulty Mauchly Antonelli," which is a mouthful, or Betty Jean Jennings (who now calls herself Jean Bartik) as something like "Elizabeth Jean Jennings Bartik," which is, in addition to being overlong, also incorrect, as Jean Bartik's birth name was "Betty Jean," not "Elizabeth Jean," contrary to what is printed in one popular source (McCartney). <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:55:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:55:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:55:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Alpine_Joy-2011-04-09T16:00:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC"></span>I wonder if the order of the people in the photo is correct. In the New York Times Obituary, Jean Bartik is identified as the person on the right, and Kay McNulty Antonelli as the woman on the left. Which is correct? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Alpine_Joy&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Alpine Joy (page does not exist)">Alpine Joy</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Alpine_Joy" title="User talk:Alpine Joy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Alpine_Joy-2011-04-09T16:00:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:00, 9 April 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Alpine_Joy-2011-04-09T16:00:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Alpine_Joy-2011-04-09T16:00:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-04-10T02:39:00.000Z-Alpine_Joy-2011-04-09T16:00:00.000Z"></span>The pictures in this article are captioned correctly. Your confusion may stem from an error in the NYT article that was subsequently corrected. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/08/business/08bartik.html">[1]</a> <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2011-04-10T02:39:00.000Z-Alpine_Joy-2011-04-09T16:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:39, 10 April 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-04-10T02:39:00.000Z-Alpine_Joy-2011-04-09T16:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2011-04-10T02:39:00.000Z-Alpine_Joy-2011-04-09T16:00:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JanderVK-2015-05-28T01:09:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC"></span>I think the women collectively should have its own article. This article, not surprisingly, downplays the significance of these women and their role in the history of technology and gender. <a href="/wiki/User:JanderVK" title="User:JanderVK">JanderVK</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JanderVK" title="User talk:JanderVK">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JanderVK-2015-05-28T01:09:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:09, 28 May 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JanderVK-2015-05-28T01:09:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JanderVK-2015-05-28T01:09:00.000Z-The_Women_who_Programmed_ENIAC"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wa3frp-2015-05-28T15:00:00.000Z-JanderVK-2015-05-28T01:09:00.000Z"></span>One of the important points about Wikipedia is everyone's opportunity to write new articles and to edit and improve existing articles. You have brought up an issue that should be addressed. I hope that you address all of the issues that you just described by both writing the new article and editing any copy that you feel "...downplays the significance of these women and their role in the history of technology and gender..." <a href="/wiki/User:Wa3frp" title="User:Wa3frp">Wa3frp</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wa3frp" title="User talk:Wa3frp">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Wa3frp-2015-05-28T15:00:00.000Z-JanderVK-2015-05-28T01:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:00, 28 May 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wa3frp-2015-05-28T15:00:00.000Z-JanderVK-2015-05-28T01:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wa3frp-2015-05-28T15:00:00.000Z-JanderVK-2015-05-28T01:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Alialiac-2018-09-27T02:53:00.000Z-JanderVK-2015-05-28T01:09:00.000Z"></span>However it is edited, feminist "us against them" ideology and criticism should be left out. This article's main, if not only, purpose should be to describe a piece of technology; politics and ideology need not enter into it. <a href="/wiki/User:Alialiac" title="User:Alialiac">Alialiac</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Alialiac" title="User talk:Alialiac">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Alialiac-2018-09-27T02:53:00.000Z-JanderVK-2015-05-28T01:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:53, 27 September 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Alialiac-2018-09-27T02:53:00.000Z-JanderVK-2015-05-28T01:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Alialiac-2018-09-27T02:53:00.000Z-JanderVK-2015-05-28T01:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="First_para_rephrase" data-mw-thread-id="h-First_para_rephrase-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-First_para_rephrase-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z"></span>First para rephrase<span data-mw-comment-end="h-First_para_rephrase-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: First para rephrase"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z-First_para_rephrase"></span>First para is currently confusing: was ENIAC actually the first to fulfill all the qualities in this sentence, or was it first thought to fulfill one set of criteria, and is now known to fulfill a different set? I've had a bash at clarifying, using the article and above discussions. <b>Please correct if I've introduced errors.</b> </p> <blockquote> <p><b>ENIAC</b>, short for <b>Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer</b>, was long thought to have been the first <a href="/wiki/Turing-complete" class="mw-redirect" title="Turing-complete">Turing-complete</a> electronic <a href="/wiki/Computer" title="Computer">computer</a>. It is now known to be the first large-scale, electronic, digital computer capable of being reprogrammed to solve a full range of computing problems. Earlier computers included the German <a href="/wiki/Z3" class="mw-disambig" title="Z3">Z3</a>, designed in <a href="/wiki/1941" title="1941">1941</a> by <a href="/wiki/Konrad_Zuse" title="Konrad Zuse">Konrad Zuse</a>, and the British <a href="/wiki/Colossus_computer" title="Colossus computer">Colossus computer</a> of 1944, designed by <a href="/wiki/Tommy_Flowers" title="Tommy Flowers">Tommy Flowers</a>. The Z3 was the world's first general purpose, electro-mechanical computer. It was Turing-complete, fully programmable by tape and used <a href="/wiki/Relay" title="Relay">relays</a> for all functions, so was not electronic; Colossus was all-electronic and could be reprogrammed by rewiring, but was not fully general purpose. Until 1948, ENIAC also required rewiring to reprogram. Both ENIAC and Colossus used <a href="/wiki/Thermionic_valve" class="mw-redirect" title="Thermionic valve">thermionic valves</a>, that is, <a href="/wiki/Vacuum_tube" title="Vacuum tube">vacuum tubes</a>. The confusion as to priority arose because the machines were developed independently as part of each country's war effort in WWII. The Z3 was destroyed by Allied bombing of Berlin in 1944, and although selected US teams were introduced to the Colossus, its existence remained classified until the 1970s. </p> </blockquote> <p>It might be appropriate to move most of the material about the Z3 and Colossus further down, as per the <a href="/wiki/Z3" class="mw-disambig" title="Z3">Z3</a> article. Thoughts please... <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z-First_para_rephrase" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z-First_para_rephrase"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z-First_para_rephrase"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-RTC-2006-02-12T21:36:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z"></span>Looks good. -- <a href="/wiki/User:RTC" title="User:RTC">RTC</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-RTC-2006-02-12T21:36:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-RTC-2006-02-12T21:36:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-RTC-2006-02-12T21:36:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dominus-2006-02-12T22:14:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z"></span>I agree that the other stuff should be moved. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Dominus" title="User:Dominus">Dominus</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Dominus-2006-02-12T22:14:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dominus-2006-02-12T22:14:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dominus-2006-02-12T22:14:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-02-12T20:03:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-02-13T01:02:00.000Z-First_para_rephrase"></span>The University of Pennsylvania (where it was built and still resides) bills it as the first "large-scale general-purpose electronic digital computer", which I believe is correct, although all the qualifiers are needed there. For example, Colossus was a large-scale electronic digital computer, but was not general-purpose; Z3 was a general-purpose digital computer, but was not electronic; an so forth. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Dominus" title="User:Dominus">Dominus</a> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd>OK, I've done the changes in two steps. The first drops the above § in for the intro, the second rearranges the material to make the intro more about ENIAC, less about other machines. If the result isn't satisfactory, pls feel free to revert to step 1. Thanks for watching over these changes :-) <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-02-13T01:02:00.000Z-First_para_rephrase" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:02, 13 February 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-02-13T01:02:00.000Z-First_para_rephrase"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-02-13T01:02:00.000Z-First_para_rephrase"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Tube_failures" data-mw-thread-id="h-Tube_failures-2006-02-15T01:10:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Tube_failures-2006-02-15T01:10:00.000Z"></span>Tube failures<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Tube_failures-2006-02-15T01:10:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Tube failures"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-RTC-2006-02-15T01:10:00.000Z-Tube_failures"></span>The article states: </p> <dl><dd>Some electronics experts predicted that tube failures would occur so frequently that the machine would never be useful. This prediction turned out to be partially correct: several tubes burned out almost every day, leaving it nonfunctional about half the time. (According to a 1989 interview with Eckert the continuously failing tubes story was a myth: "We had <i><b>a tube fail about every two days</b></i> and we could locate the problem within 15 minutes.") Special high-reliability tubes were not available until 1948. Most of these failures, however, occurred during the warm-up and cool-down periods, when the tube heaters and cathodes were under the most thermal stress. By the simple (if expensive) expedient of never turning the machine off, the engineers reduced ENIAC's tube failures to the more acceptable rate of <i><b>one tube every two days</b></i>. In 1954, the longest continuous period of operation without a failure was 116 hours (close to five days). Given the technology available at the time, this failure rate was remarkably low, and stands as a tribute to the precise engineering of ENIAC.</dd></dl> <p>I have highlighted both Eckert's recalled failure rate and the rate previously in the article (before the addition of the Eckert comment) and they look identical to me. Perhaps Eckert was recalling only the later rate of failure instead of initial problems before the solution of leaving the machine on was discovered... -- <a href="/wiki/User:RTC" title="User:RTC">RTC</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-RTC-2006-02-15T01:10:00.000Z-Tube_failures" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-RTC-2006-02-15T01:10:00.000Z-Tube_failures"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-RTC-2006-02-15T01:10:00.000Z-Tube_failures"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Msiddalingaiah-2006-03-21T23:14:00.000Z-Tube_failures"></span>In a television interview, I remember either Eckert or Mauchly admitting they knew about the possibility of poor reliability. To deal with it, they adjusted the design to improve reliability. Most notably, they were very conservative and chose to operate tube filaments considerably lower than their ratings. Can anyone confirm this? <a href="/wiki/User:Msiddalingaiah" title="User:Msiddalingaiah">Madhu</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Msiddalingaiah-2006-03-21T23:14:00.000Z-Tube_failures" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Msiddalingaiah-2006-03-21T23:14:00.000Z-Tube_failures"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Msiddalingaiah-2006-03-21T23:14:00.000Z-Tube_failures"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mungo_Shuntbox-2012-07-29T07:31:00.000Z-Tube_failures"></span>I have read several times the book Colossus, and think it's interesting to mention that in the use of valves, Tommy Flowers is credited with recognising that the way to keep them running reliably is never to turn them off. I think the book states that it was the warm up and cool down of valves that degraded the metals inside them until they eventually failed; isn't this a bit like light bulbs by the way? Anyhow I don't think this needs mentioning in the main article but just thought I'd slip it in for information that Colossus had addressed the reliability of valves before ENIAC came to the same solution. I also am tickled by the debates over the definition debate to keep ENIAC as a first... I can't actually spot what defines a machine as general purpose, but as far as I can see ENIAC did the ballistic calculations it was created for, then was headhunted to perform atomic calculations; is that what makes it general purpose? I'll re-read the book as I am pretty sure Colossus was reprogrammed to take on different tasks. Hmm. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Mungo_Shuntbox&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Mungo Shuntbox (page does not exist)">Mungo Shuntbox</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mungo_Shuntbox" title="User talk:Mungo Shuntbox">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Mungo_Shuntbox-2012-07-29T07:31:00.000Z-Tube_failures" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:31, 29 July 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mungo_Shuntbox-2012-07-29T07:31:00.000Z-Tube_failures"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mungo_Shuntbox-2012-07-29T07:31:00.000Z-Tube_failures"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Added_hidden_suggestion" data-mw-thread-id="h-Added_hidden_suggestion-2006-02-17T00:18:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Added_hidden_suggestion-2006-02-17T00:18:00.000Z"></span>Added hidden suggestion<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Added_hidden_suggestion-2006-02-17T00:18:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Added hidden suggestion"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-02-17T00:18:00.000Z-Added_hidden_suggestion"></span>I've added a concealed comment to the sections that mention other computers, because these seem to attract edits that might be more appropriate for those machines' specialist articles. Comment is: "THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT ENIAC. If you wish to add very detailed material about other computers, please consider adding it to that computer's own article or <a href="/wiki/History_of_computing_hardware" title="History of computing hardware">History of computing hardware</a>. Happy editing!" Hope this doesn't ruffle any feathers - pls remove if it does. Cheers, <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-02-17T00:18:00.000Z-Added_hidden_suggestion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:18, 17 February 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-02-17T00:18:00.000Z-Added_hidden_suggestion"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-02-17T00:18:00.000Z-Added_hidden_suggestion"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Comparison?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Comparison?-2006-02-17T01:08:00.000Z"><span id="Comparison.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Comparison?-2006-02-17T01:08:00.000Z"></span>Comparison?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Comparison?-2006-02-17T01:08:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Comparison?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <dl><dd><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-02-17T01:08:00.000Z-Comparison?"></span>The idea of the <a href="/wiki/Von_Neumann_architecture" title="Von Neumann architecture">stored-program</a> computer with combined memory for program and data was conceived during the development of the ENIAC, but it was not implemented at that time because World War II priorities required the machine to be completed quickly, and it was realized that 20 storage locations for memory and programs would be much too small.</i></dd> <dd>Currently, this is under Comparison, but it doesn't do much comparing. I'd be more comfortable if either (a) context were added to compare to the other machines (I can't do ths bit), or (b) the sentence went back into Description. Opinions? <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-02-17T01:08:00.000Z-Comparison?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-02-17T01:08:00.000Z-Comparison?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-02-17T01:08:00.000Z-Comparison?"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JettaMann-2006-07-10T16:45:00.000Z-Comparison?"></span>Come on guys, the thing about Konrad Zuse's Z3 not being electronic because it used relays is a joke! The only difference between a vaccuum tube and a relay is that one is mechanical and one is solid state. The Z3 is what we would call the first modern day computer, bar none. The Z3 needs to be featured more prominently and explicitly stated in this article that is was the first. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:JettaMann&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:JettaMann (page does not exist)">JettaMann</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JettaMann-2006-07-10T16:45:00.000Z-Comparison?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JettaMann-2006-07-10T16:45:00.000Z-Comparison?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JettaMann-2006-07-10T16:45:00.000Z-Comparison?"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-07-10T17:49:00.000Z-Comparison?"></span>No, this article is <b>about ENIAC</b>. The main material about the Z3 should be under <a href="/wiki/Z3" class="mw-disambig" title="Z3">Z3</a>, and the main <b>comparison</b> of the different machines should be under <a href="/wiki/History_of_computing_hardware" title="History of computing hardware">History of computing hardware</a>, as a daughter page if necessary. That article currently needs a little structural work, and a feature-by-feature comparison job of the early machines would be a plus, so if you felt like wading in that would be wonderful. <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:JackyR" title="User talk:JackyR">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-07-10T17:49:00.000Z-Comparison?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-07-10T17:49:00.000Z-Comparison?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-07-10T17:49:00.000Z-Comparison?"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JettaMann-2006-07-27T17:25:00.000Z-Comparison?"></span>I agree actually. The comparison section seems fine as it does in fact mention the Z3, which is all that is required. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:JettaMann&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:JettaMann (page does not exist)">JettaMann</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JettaMann-2006-07-27T17:25:00.000Z-Comparison?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JettaMann-2006-07-27T17:25:00.000Z-Comparison?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JettaMann-2006-07-27T17:25:00.000Z-Comparison?"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="History" data-mw-thread-id="h-History-2006-03-07T22:11:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-History-2006-03-07T22:11:00.000Z"></span>History<span data-mw-comment-end="h-History-2006-03-07T22:11:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: History"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pictureuploader-2006-03-07T22:11:00.000Z-History"></span>Do we know if ENIAC still exists? What happened to it after the 1950s? Are its pieces in a museum? <a href="/wiki/User:Pictureuploader" title="User:Pictureuploader">Pictureuploader</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Pictureuploader-2006-03-07T22:11:00.000Z-History" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:11, 7 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pictureuploader-2006-03-07T22:11:00.000Z-History"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pictureuploader-2006-03-07T22:11:00.000Z-History"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-RTC-2006-03-16T07:20:00.000Z-Pictureuploader-2006-03-07T22:11:00.000Z"></span>Several portions still exist. The <a href="/wiki/University_of_Pennsylvania" title="University of Pennsylvania">University of Pennsylvania</a> where it was built has four units operational (the Cycling Unit, the Master Programmer Unit, an accumulator, and one Function Table), the <a href="/wiki/Smithsonian" class="mw-redirect" title="Smithsonian">Smithsonian</a> has some of it, the <a href="/wiki/Computer_History_Museum" title="Computer History Museum">Computer History Museum</a> has one Function Table Panel (on loan from the Smithsonian). -- <a href="/wiki/User:RTC" title="User:RTC">RTC</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-RTC-2006-03-16T07:20:00.000Z-Pictureuploader-2006-03-07T22:11:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-RTC-2006-03-16T07:20:00.000Z-Pictureuploader-2006-03-07T22:11:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-RTC-2006-03-16T07:20:00.000Z-Pictureuploader-2006-03-07T22:11:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:39:00.000Z-RTC-2006-03-16T07:20:00.000Z"></span>Much of the ENIAC still exists; not all of it has been restored for display, and of the pieces that have been, the Smithsonian is not aware of the locations of all of them. An exhaustive worldwide search for ENIAC components would be a worthwhile endeavor, one which I attempted at one point but proved to be overwhelming. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:39:00.000Z-RTC-2006-03-16T07:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:39:00.000Z-RTC-2006-03-16T07:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:39:00.000Z-RTC-2006-03-16T07:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Intro_again" data-mw-thread-id="h-Intro_again-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Intro_again-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z"></span>Intro again<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Intro_again-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: Intro again"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z-Intro_again"></span>I'm not enthusiastic about having a 1976 work cited in the first § to show ENIAC's form of priority. <a href="/wiki/User:Gnetwerker" title="User:Gnetwerker">Gnetwerker</a>, can you tell us <i>exactly</i> what the source claims? Is it pre- or post- the revelations about Colossus? Do the authors know anything about the Z3? As stated further down, a lot of histories of computing were <b>factually wrong</b> because of the secrecy surrounding these projects. Unless this book's authors display accurate knowledge of the other machines, I wouldn't use it for backing up priority claims. <a href="/wiki/User:Blainster" title="User:Blainster">Blainster</a> has edited the § so that WP records the priorities correctly: does this now make the book citation false? Please to check, everyone... Cheers, <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z-Intro_again" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z-Intro_again"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z-Intro_again"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-15T01:09:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z"></span>I grabbed that off the bookshelf because it was handy. Of course, 1976 seems recent to me! I can't type in the whole text, but it references the Z3 (noting it was built from telephone relays), talks about the Harvard Mark I and other "electro-mechanical" machines, then says that the ABC was "the earliest known electronic digital computing device", but notes that it was special-purpose, then mentioned ENIAC and EDVAC, noting (pg. 491) "the concept of the large-scale electronic computer is due to ...Eckert and Mauchly". On pg. 540 it says "It (ENIAC) was the first electronic automatic computer". Finally, <i>Engines of the Mind</i> (Shurkin) devotes an entire chapter to the ABC vs. ENIAC controversy, and finally says (pg. 298) "Who invented the modern computer? Eckert and Mauchly."</dd> <dd>This has been discussed at least half to death on the ABC and Computer pages, and I have provided complete references there as well. Shurkin's book is from 1996. The comprehensive sources all say: <dl><dd><ol><li>Harvard Mark I and pre-war Zuse machines were "program-controlled calculators"</li> <li>Mark I and Z3 were "electro-mechanical";</li> <li>ABC was special-purpose, but the first digital electronic computer;</li> <li>ENIAC was the first electronic, general-purpose, reprogrammable digital computer.</li></ol></dd></dl></dd> <dd>The <i>Encyclopedia of Computer Science</i> goes to some trouble to define <i>digital</i>, <i>general-purpose</i>, <i>electronic</i> and <i>automatic</i> in the process of making its definitions. I don't think much has changed since 1976. The ridiculous "first computer" battle (here and elsewhere) is over definitions, not facts. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Gnetwerker" title="User:Gnetwerker">Gnetwerker</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-15T01:09:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-15T01:09:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-15T01:09:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-15T01:13:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z"></span>P.s.</b> -- The aforementioned <i>Encyclopedia of CS</i> has a full (two column) page and a large photo devoted to Zuse, and mentions the Z1, Z2, Z3, Z4, Z11, Z22, Z23, and Z64 (plotter). -- <a href="/wiki/User:Gnetwerker" title="User:Gnetwerker">Gnetwerker</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-15T01:13:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-15T01:13:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-15T01:13:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-15T00:25:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-03-15T16:09:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-15T01:13:00.000Z"></span>Many thanks for that. Yes, I'm in no way impugning ENIAC's credentials - but from what you say I'm now pretty sure the ref is not good: could we use Shurkin's 1996 book (or one of the other"comprehensive sources" you mention) as the intro ref instead? The reason being that the <i>Enc of CS</i> clearly has not heard of Colossus and the statement "the concept of the large-scale electronic computer is due to ...Eckert and Mauchly", is now known to be false (unless it adds "in the US": it's manifestly untrue for Britain). Do we really want to refer readers to a book which contains (through no fault of its own) inaccuracies?</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>(I didn't pick up on 1976 because of not being recent, but because the first person to break the secrecy about <a href="/wiki/Bletchley_Park" title="Bletchley Park">Bletchley Park</a> published in 74, and didn't write much about Colussus anyway. Details of that, and the public realisation that the Manchester and Cambridge teams <i>knew</i> where they were going, came later).</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Sorry to be nit-picky, but given, as you say, the ridiculous squabbling about so-called "first computers", I'm trying to make this article bomb-proof. Cheers for your patience! <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-03-15T16:09:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-15T01:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-03-15T16:09:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-15T01:13:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-03-15T16:09:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-15T01:13:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blainster-2006-03-15T22:36:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-15T16:09:00.000Z"></span>I should have just removed the Encyclopedia citation when I took out the sentence it was attached to. I did not write the first sentence in the article— it was already there— I just moved it to the front of the paragraph where it originally was. The present description in the article explains the overlapping nature of the various computing inventions better than a lot of outside references do. Each of the above machines could probably be labeled as "first" with the right qualifiers. I will add another new book to the "further reading" list. <i>Electronic Brains</i> not only discusses these machines, but the first Russian computer, an early Australian computer, the British LEO, and an interesting hydraulic computer built at Cambridge. The last chapter of the book tells the tale: "It's not about being first". --<a href="/wiki/User:Blainster" title="User:Blainster">Blainster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Blainster-2006-03-15T22:36:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-15T16:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:36, 15 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blainster-2006-03-15T22:36:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-15T16:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blainster-2006-03-15T22:36:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-15T16:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-03-15T23:35:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-03-15T22:36:00.000Z"></span>Bravo! I shall retire for the evening with the weight lifted from my heart :-) <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-03-15T23:35:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-03-15T22:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-03-15T23:35:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-03-15T22:36:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-03-15T23:35:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-03-15T22:36:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-03-15T23:43:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-03-15T22:36:00.000Z"></span>Or I will, if Gnetworker is OK about changing the ref. Sorry folks, I have <i>none</i> of these books myself, so can't do that bit. <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-03-15T23:43:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-03-15T22:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:43, 15 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-03-15T23:43:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-03-15T22:36:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-03-15T23:43:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-03-15T22:36:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T00:17:00.000Z-Intro_again"></span>(De-Indent) You are correct, <i>Enc CS</i> doesn't mention Collosus (didn't know that was in play), but <i>Engines of the Mind</i> (1996) and <i>Computer: A history of the Information Machine</i> both do. I am not an ENIAC zealot, and the latter (<i>Computer</i>) comments that the 1948 Machester computer <i>"established incontrovertibly the feasibility of the stored-program computer"</i> and talks about it leading to EDSAC (1949). <i>Engines</i> gives a little more coverage to COLOSSUS (spelled there in all caps). It says: <i>"By any standards, COLOSSUS was a working electronic computer, perhaps the world's first. The machine was limited because it was designed for a particular function and was virtually useless for anything else."</i> (pg. 143). This is in the same chapter as the Z3 discussion. <b>I would not in any way object to changing or removing the reference,</b> but the important point is that, with deference to the many other "firsts", the ENIAC is the (for lack of a better term) grand-daddy of modern computing, notwithstanding earlier efforts. </p><p>Part of the problem is that we have had an ABC activist over on the ABC page, saying things like "binary is the same as digital" and throwing up lots of smoke from the 1973 Mauchly vs. Atanasoff proxy fight (Sperry v. IBM I think). I think all of this is making the collection of early computer pages inconsistent and of lower quality. Perhaps we need a page <a href="/w/index.php?title=First_Computers&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="First Computers (page does not exist)">First Computers</a> that goes into it all in detail. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Gnetwerker" title="User:Gnetwerker">Gnetwerker</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T00:17:00.000Z-Intro_again" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:17, 16 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T00:17:00.000Z-Intro_again"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T00:17:00.000Z-Intro_again"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-03-16T01:00:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T00:17:00.000Z"></span>Ref changed - I pasted in the Shurkin from ABC (hope OK). Re <a href="/w/index.php?title=First_computers&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="First computers (page does not exist)">First computers</a>, actually <a href="/wiki/History_of_computing_hardware" title="History of computing hardware">History of computing hardware</a> ain't bad - and is the natural home for such. But it's not great, either. You're quite right about the inconsistency: a lot of these articles seem to be from different planets - which I guess reflects very accurately the original circumstances of the machines, and their historiographies! What was Wiki born for, if not to make all clear? <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-03-16T01:00:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T00:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-03-16T01:00:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T00:17:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-03-16T01:00:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T00:17:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-03-16T01:00:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T00:17:00.000Z-1"></span>PS I didn't mention Colossus?! RTQ! ;-) <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-03-16T01:00:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T00:17:00.000Z-1" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-03-16T01:00:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T00:17:00.000Z-1"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-03-16T01:00:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T00:17:00.000Z-1"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T02:00:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-16T01:00:00.000Z"></span>I meant that Colossus wasn't really in the running as "first computer". Was it? -- <a href="/wiki/User:Gnetwerker" title="User:Gnetwerker">Gnetwerker</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T02:00:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-16T01:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T02:00:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-16T01:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T02:00:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-03-16T01:00:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-03-16T17:33:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T02:00:00.000Z"></span>Isn't that the "historiography" thing again? Colossus wasn't in the running for anything - cos no-one writing the history had heard of it. In technical terms, it seems to be in the same grouping: was reprogrammable but not general purpose, seems to be an earlier use than ENIAC of valves, etc. And I've just checked: someone has made a "first" claim at <a href="/wiki/Tommy_Flowers" title="Tommy Flowers">Tommy Flowers</a> (looks OK). And <a href="/wiki/History_of_computing_hardware#1940s:_first_electrical_digital_computers" title="History of computing hardware">History of computing hardware#1940s: first electrical digital computers</a> describes it as one of the "first-generation computers", along with the Z3 and ABC.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Btw: there's also a bit that seems to be missing from all the WP accounts: <a href="/wiki/Tommy_Flowers" title="Tommy Flowers">Tommy Flowers</a> built the Colossus <i>against</i> the wishes of his bosses, who didn't believe a worth-while machine could be made using valves, because of their unreliability when switched on and off. Flowers took out personal loans and built the thing in secret (from early 1943), to present as a fait-accompli. I know this from first big documentary on Bletchley but don't have books so can't add it - if someone has the refs, some work is needed here. But this has nowt to do with ENIAC.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Why am I a Colossus cheerleader (other than being British)? Because I'm a Tommy Flowers fan: he spent his own money (never fully recompensed) and personal loans to build a machine that had been rubbished by his superiors; shortened the war by, they say, 2 years; dismantled his creation and burnt the plans with his own hands; swore never to speak of the machine's existence; and spent the remainder of his life as an obscure Post Office technician hearing other people credited for "inventing" computers. During the interview for "Station X" (doc), this 90-year-old man was almost in tears describing how he destroyed his machine. Again, I'm on the wrong page for this, but you can see why I bang the drum when histories ask: Was it the ABC or ENIAC?! <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-03-16T17:33:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T02:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-03-16T17:33:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T02:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-03-16T17:33:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-03-16T02:00:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="False_information?" data-mw-thread-id="h-False_information?"><span id="False_information.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-False_information?"></span>False information?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-False_information?"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: False information?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>the article says "ENIAC was developed and built by the >U.S. Army< for their Ballistics Research Laboratory,." this is not entirely true, John Mauchly and J Presper Eckert developed the ENIAC. The U.S. military only sponsored their research. look it up. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Reference_required" data-mw-thread-id="h-Reference_required-2006-03-26T21:59:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Reference_required-2006-03-26T21:59:00.000Z"></span>Reference required<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Reference_required-2006-03-26T21:59:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=14" title="Edit section: Reference required"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Colin99-2006-03-26T21:59:00.000Z-Reference_required"></span>"As of 2004, a chip of silicon measuring 0.02 inches (0.5 mm) square holds the same capacity as the ENIAC, which occupied a large room." Can this be supported? <a href="/wiki/User:Colin99" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Colin99">Colin99</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Colin99-2006-03-26T21:59:00.000Z-Reference_required" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:59, 26 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Colin99-2006-03-26T21:59:00.000Z-Reference_required"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Colin99-2006-03-26T21:59:00.000Z-Reference_required"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blainster-2006-04-11T19:17:00.000Z-Colin99-2006-03-26T21:59:00.000Z"></span>The "ENIAC-on-a-chip" built by the Moore school in 1997 was 7x5 mm with 175,000 transistors <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://www.ee.upenn.edu/~jan/eniacproj.html">[2]</a>. So the statement can be changed to reflect this unless someone can update it to reflect additional "shrinkage" in the last nine years. --<a href="/wiki/User:Blainster" title="User:Blainster">Blainster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Blainster-2006-04-11T19:17:00.000Z-Colin99-2006-03-26T21:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blainster-2006-04-11T19:17:00.000Z-Colin99-2006-03-26T21:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blainster-2006-04-11T19:17:00.000Z-Colin99-2006-03-26T21:59:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zebbie-2006-04-11T16:39:00.000Z-Reference_required"></span>"Mauchly had borrowed some ideas from the Atanasoff-Berry Computer." This statement has been challenged in enough places that it demands support. Unless someone can really state, in a simple sentence, one definite "idea" that was borrowed, I suggest we delete this. (hint: "computing with tubes" is not a specific or a stealable idea.)--<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Zebbie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Zebbie (page does not exist)">Zebbie</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Zebbie-2006-04-11T16:39:00.000Z-Reference_required" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zebbie-2006-04-11T16:39:00.000Z-Reference_required"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zebbie-2006-04-11T16:39:00.000Z-Reference_required"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gnetwerker-2006-04-11T18:54:00.000Z-Zebbie-2006-04-11T16:39:00.000Z"></span>The <a href="/wiki/Atanasoff%E2%80%93Berry_Computer" class="mw-redirect" title="Atanasoff–Berry Computer">ABC</a> proponents will start quoting to you from the court case that found in favor of Atanasoff. There are a lot of problems with that court case, and with the judge's conclusions, but on its face it does support that statement, despite Mauchly's later denials. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Gnetwerker" title="User:Gnetwerker">Gnetwerker</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Gnetwerker-2006-04-11T18:54:00.000Z-Zebbie-2006-04-11T16:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gnetwerker-2006-04-11T18:54:00.000Z-Zebbie-2006-04-11T16:39:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gnetwerker-2006-04-11T18:54:00.000Z-Zebbie-2006-04-11T16:39:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blainster-2006-04-11T19:17:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-04-11T18:54:00.000Z"></span>Here is the relevant section from the judgement, which was never challenged by Univac/Sperry: "3.1.3: Honewell has proved that the claimed subject matter of the ENIAC patent relied on in support of the counterclaim herein is not patentable over the <i>subject matter derived by Mauchly from Atanasoff</i>. As a representative example, Honeywell has shown that the subject matter of detailed claims 88 and 89 of the ENIAC patent corresponds to the work of Atanasoff which was known to Mauchly before any effort pertinent to the ENIAC machine began." – Honeywell Inc. v. Sperry Rand Corp. et al. <a href="/wiki/October_19" title="October 19">October 19</a>, <a href="/wiki/1973" title="1973">1973</a>. (emphasis added)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>The main idea that Mauchly "borrowed" is the idea of a <i>digital</i> computer. The court showed that Mauchly had no concept of a digital computer prior to seeing the ABC. He had only worked on analog devices up till then, and throughout the years leading up to and through the trial, he was never able to find a witness or provide a document showing that he had broached the concept of digital computing prior to his visit to Iowa in June of 1941. This does not denigrate Mauchly and Eckert's fine work on the ENIAC, which used many concepts distinct from the ABC due to their engineering prowess. --<a href="/wiki/User:Blainster" title="User:Blainster">Blainster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Blainster-2006-04-11T19:17:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-04-11T18:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blainster-2006-04-11T19:17:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-04-11T18:54:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blainster-2006-04-11T19:17:00.000Z-Gnetwerker-2006-04-11T18:54:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zebbie-2006-04-20T16:45:00.000Z-Zebbie-2006-04-11T16:39:00.000Z"></span>Thanks for the answers, but I can't get behind them. I know what the court said, and it is the judge's inability to articulate a definition of computer that has caused much of the controversy. No doubt you are aware of the lengthy debate at [Computer | Talk] about the definition of computer. In brief, if the judge meant "a digital computing device" then the category includes Babbage, Stibitz, and every IBM tabulator. If the judge meant "a machine designed for manipulating data according to a list of instructions known as a program" (Wikipedia's definition) then Atanasoff's machine does not qualify as a computer.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>I'm looking for the specific definition of a computer feature that originated in the ABC and is found in the ENIAC. For example, "Mauchly had borrowed the idea of using tubes to perform binary addition" or "Mauchly had borrowed the idea of using a series of digital pulses to represent a number" or "manipulating data according to a list of instructions." Something concrete.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>In other words, ignore the judge. With 60 years of hindsight, what important idea was borrowed from the ABC and included in the ENIAC? Is it claim 88? --<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Zebbie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Zebbie (page does not exist)">Zebbie</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Zebbie-2006-04-20T16:45:00.000Z-Zebbie-2006-04-11T16:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zebbie-2006-04-20T16:45:00.000Z-Zebbie-2006-04-11T16:39:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zebbie-2006-04-20T16:45:00.000Z-Zebbie-2006-04-11T16:39:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Ken_Estabrook-2007-07-01T05:27:00.000Z-Zebbie-2006-04-20T16:45:00.000Z"></span>I think your question was answered. Without meeting Atanasoff, examining the ABC, and discussing Atanasoff and Berry's invention with them, Mauchly wouldn't have invented ENIAC, at least not as early as he did. Mauchly's own words in a letter to Atanasoff after his June 1941 examination of the ABC: "A number of different ideas have come to me recently anent (regarding) computing circuits, some of which are more or less hybrids, combining your methods with other things, and some of which are nothing like your machine." <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Ken_Estabrook&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Ken Estabrook (page does not exist)">Ken Estabrook</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Ken_Estabrook-2007-07-01T05:27:00.000Z-Zebbie-2006-04-20T16:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Ken_Estabrook-2007-07-01T05:27:00.000Z-Zebbie-2006-04-20T16:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Ken_Estabrook-2007-07-01T05:27:00.000Z-Zebbie-2006-04-20T16:45:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Lusid42-2007-10-23T20:11:00.000Z-Reference_required"></span>I was always under the impression that the two had met after Atanasoff approached Mauchly. Why would he locate Mauchly after a lecture and ask him to come look at his machine if Mauchly had not already proposed similar ideas? Why would he suppose Mauchly would have insights into this type of computing if it was not something Mauchly was known to be an authority on, or at the very least interested in? It would be strange to travel to visit another professor, listen to his lecture, and then ask his advice on a topic that you have no reason to believe he could help with. <small>—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Lusid42&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Lusid42 (page does not exist)">Lusid42</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Lusid42&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Lusid42 (page does not exist)">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Lusid42" title="Special:Contributions/Lusid42">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Lusid42-2007-10-23T20:11:00.000Z-Reference_required" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Lusid42-2007-10-23T20:11:00.000Z-Reference_required"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Lusid42-2007-10-23T20:11:00.000Z-Reference_required"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Image_caption_vandalsim?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Image_caption_vandalsim?-2006-05-09T15:10:00.000Z"><span id="Image_caption_vandalsim.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Image_caption_vandalsim?-2006-05-09T15:10:00.000Z"></span>Image caption vandalsim?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Image_caption_vandalsim?-2006-05-09T15:10:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=15" title="Edit section: Image caption vandalsim?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-155.198.63.111-2006-05-09T15:10:00.000Z-Image_caption_vandalsim?"></span>The image caption reads "<b>Two women about to get boned by the ENIAC</b>" - is this some term I am not aware of, or is it somebody trying to be funny?? <i>- <a href="/wiki/User:Dawidl" title="User:Dawidl">User:Dawidl</a></i> </p><p>I thought that, but checking the history shows it was vandalism, I've reverted the page. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:155.198.63.111&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:155.198.63.111 (page does not exist)">155.198.63.111</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-155.198.63.111-2006-05-09T15:10:00.000Z-Image_caption_vandalsim?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-155.198.63.111-2006-05-09T15:10:00.000Z-Image_caption_vandalsim?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-155.198.63.111-2006-05-09T15:10:00.000Z-Image_caption_vandalsim?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?" data-mw-thread-id="h-When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?-2006-06-07T10:46:00.000Z"><span id="When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?-2006-06-07T10:46:00.000Z"></span>When was ENIAC first shown to work?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?-2006-06-07T10:46:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=16" title="Edit section: When was ENIAC first shown to work?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blainster-2006-06-07T10:46:00.000Z-When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?"></span>I came to this article hoping to find out when ENIAC was first working but I'm confused by the intro. Can someone help clarify this? </p><p>First it says ENIAC was built by the Army in 1942. (Does that mean it was working then?) Then it says it was commissioned in 1943. (There's a link from "commissioned" to the explanation of the meaning of "putting a ship into service". But does this mean it was put into service; or is it the other meaning of "commissioned", that an order was placed?) Then it says it was constructed by Penn's Moore School of Electrical Engineering from mid-1944. (Does this mean it was working in 1944?) Then the intro says it was "unveiled" in 1946. (Does this mean it was working for the first time in 1946?) </p><p>If anyone can come up with an answer that would be a great help? <small>—The preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Sign_your_posts_on_talk_pages" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages">unsigned</a> comment was added by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:82.35.173.37&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:82.35.173.37 (page does not exist)">82.35.173.37</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:82.35.173.37&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:82.35.173.37 (page does not exist)">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/82.35.173.37" title="Special:Contributions/82.35.173.37">contribs</a>) 15:14, June 6, 2006 (UTC)</small> </p> <dl><dd>Some errors recently crept into the article. ENIAC was built for the Army by engineers at the Moore School of the University of Pennsylvania. The 1942 date was incorrect. The article should have said that the project was approved for construction in mid-1943. Design work took about a year, and the computer was built over 18 months from mid-1944 to the end of 1945. Final assembly was undertaken in the fall of 1945. For example, the divider and square root modules were installed in October 1945. Parts of it were working prior to that, but you could say the full machine was not functional until the last couple of months of 1945, with formal acceptance at the February 1946 public event. --<a href="/wiki/User:Blainster" title="User:Blainster">Blainster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Blainster-2006-06-07T10:46:00.000Z-When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blainster-2006-06-07T10:46:00.000Z-When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blainster-2006-06-07T10:46:00.000Z-When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><strike><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T15:48:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-06-07T10:46:00.000Z"></span>Incidentally, the "February 1946 public event" Blainster references above took place on February 15, not 14 as cited by McCartney and possibly several other secondary sources. Primary sources, such as the event invitation, show that nothing was scheduled for the 14th.</strike> <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> 15:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC) I've revised my thinking on this since my remark (stricken, above). The formal dedication was certainly the 15th but there may have been a demonstration event on the 14th, since that is the date remembered by the women <a href="/wiki/Human_computer" class="mw-redirect" title="Human computer">computers</a>, according to Kathy Kleiman, who extensively researched and compiled their stories. To my knowledge, no written evidence of an event scheduled for the 14th has surfaced, but I would be interested in it should someone come across a written schedule of dedication events. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T15:48:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-06-07T10:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T15:48:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-06-07T10:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T15:48:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-06-07T10:46:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-01-31T16:04:00.000Z-When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?"></span>The issue of when ENIAC was first shown to work was an important one in <i><a href="/wiki/Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand" class="mw-redirect" title="Honeywell v. Sperry Rand">Honeywell v. Sperry Rand</a></i>, and Judge Larson made findings on this matter (see especially 1.1.3). At this point I cannot find any contemporary or primary source which supports a Feb. 14th unveiling date. Rather, Feb. 14, 1946 was the date on which ENIAC's programmers worked frantically to get all of the bugs out of the system for the public dedication the following day. The program for the unveiling, which was entered into evidence in the patent case and is therefore available in the microfilm record, shows that the date was February 15. The judge found no disclosure activity took place on February 14th. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2011-01-31T16:04:00.000Z-When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-01-31T16:04:00.000Z-When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2011-01-31T16:04:00.000Z-When_was_ENIAC_first_shown_to_work?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.fi.edu/learn/case-files/eckertmauchly/design.html"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-01-31T16:29:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-01-31T16:04:00.000Z"></span>Here</a> is a <i>New York Times</i> article indicating that the machine was "announced" on the evening of February 14, 1946, even though the formal dedication and public demonstration was not until the following day. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2011-01-31T16:29:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-01-31T16:04:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:29, 31 January 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-01-31T16:29:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-01-31T16:04:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2011-01-31T16:29:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-01-31T16:04:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Comparison_table" data-mw-thread-id="h-Comparison_table-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Comparison_table-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z"></span>Comparison table<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Comparison_table-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=17" title="Edit section: Comparison table"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z-Comparison_table"></span>Table is great: it should also be at <a href="/wiki/History_of_computing_hardware" title="History of computing hardware">History of computing hardware</a>, where this subject should be expanded on (any volunteers?). But please don't try to simplify ENIAC's particular "first" claim - you end up with a statement that is untrue. (It's not true, for example, that ENIAC "combined for the first time both high-speed and rudimentary programmability", as the Colossus was both of these and was fully functional earlier.) <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:JackyR" title="User talk:JackyR">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z-Comparison_table" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z-Comparison_table"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z-Comparison_table"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T15:50:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z"></span>The simplest claim of priority would be "first general-purpose electronic digital computer," a designation agreed upon by Arthur and Alice Burks. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T15:50:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T15:50:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T15:50:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adrian_Robson-2006-08-03T10:14:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T15:50:00.000Z"></span>Nice to see the table to make comparison easier. As I mentioned on <a href="/wiki/Talk:Computer#Comparable_dates" title="Talk:Computer">Talk:Computer#Comparable_dates</a> I think the dates need to be made as comparable as possible. In particular, the ABC date of 1937-42 makes it look much earlier than the detailed information suggests it actually was. Making the date column heading more specific as "Shown working" would, I think, put the ABC date at around 1941. Including 1937, when it was only at the concept stage, doesn't look comparable to the other dates - concept dates for the other computers are earlier.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>I think it would also be nice to have a column saying what each of these machines was first to do. They are all tremendous achievements and it would be good to say in two or three words what "first" each one achieved. <a href="/wiki/User:Adrian_Robson" title="User:Adrian Robson">Adrian Robson</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Adrian_Robson-2006-08-03T10:14:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T15:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adrian_Robson-2006-08-03T10:14:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T15:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adrian_Robson-2006-08-03T10:14:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T15:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JackyR-2006-08-03T14:08:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z"></span>Currently we're using the "first" designation used at the Moore School (<a href="#ENIAC_designed_and_used_to_be_Turing-complete?">#ENIAC designed and used to be Turing-complete?</a> above). I'd be inclined to stick with that, as it's very specific. I believe "general purpose" is actually shorthand for "theoretically Turing-complete", rather than "could in practice be used for any purpose" (pls correct me if I've got that wrong): so let's use the technical designation rather than the potentially misleading shorthand.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>I'd also not be keen on a "first in what" column, as it gives the impression of single track progress, whereas early computers experimented with a range of solutions, some of which were later abandoned (eg ENIAC's use of decimal rather than binary puts it). And to put ENIAC's "first" in context, one would have to include EDVAC, EDSAC and LEO - really beyond the scope of the ENIAC page but very proper for the <a href="/wiki/History_of_computing_hardware" title="History of computing hardware">History of computing hardware</a>.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>Overall, the purpose of these pages on Wikipedia is to give a thorough, neutral-as-possible view of the different machines in the history of computing, and any inter-relations, whereas the purpose of some of the source material may be to champion a particular machine and prove it was somehow the "best". <a href="/wiki/User:JackyR" title="User:JackyR">JackyR</a> | <a href="/wiki/User_talk:JackyR" title="User talk:JackyR">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JackyR-2006-08-03T14:08:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JackyR-2006-08-03T14:08:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JackyR-2006-08-03T14:08:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-07-30T22:36:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-03T15:19:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-08-03T14:08:00.000Z"></span>Jacky, thanks for this clarification on your interpretation of "general-purpose." I can see how it may be more ambiguous than the terms currently being used. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-03T15:19:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-08-03T14:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:19, 3 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-03T15:19:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-08-03T14:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-03T15:19:00.000Z-JackyR-2006-08-03T14:08:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary" data-mw-thread-id="h-Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary-2006-08-02T14:34:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary-2006-08-02T14:34:00.000Z"></span>Honeywell v. Sperry Rand Ruling summary<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary-2006-08-02T14:34:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=18" title="Edit section: Honeywell v. Sperry Rand Ruling summary"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:34:00.000Z-Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary"></span>"...voided the 1964 ENIAC patent as derivative of John Atanasoff's ABC Computer." </p><p>Other than the (double!) redundancy at the end of this remark, it is misleading as it is a simplification of the ruling, omitting what were actually numerous reasons cited for the invalidation of the ENIAC patent (among several other Eckert-Mauchly patents). If Blainster does not object, I will reword. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:34:00.000Z-Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:34:00.000Z-Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:34:00.000Z-Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blainster-2006-08-03T18:20:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:34:00.000Z"></span>The phrase could be improved. I'm OK with "John Atanasoff's computer" or the "Atanasoff Berry Computer" instead of the the "ABC Computer". Just saying "Atanasoff's ABC" leaves the reader in a quandry. But the intro paragragh should be kept very simple. The details are present in the articles on Mauchly and Atanasoff, where they are more appropriate. We should just mention the patent problem and link to details in other articles. --<a href="/wiki/User:Blainster" title="User:Blainster">Blainster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Blainster-2006-08-03T18:20:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:34:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blainster-2006-08-03T18:20:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:34:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blainster-2006-08-03T18:20:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2006-08-02T14:34:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-03T18:59:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-08-03T18:20:00.000Z"></span>I agree. As-is, the wording is not controversy-neutral, which the article should try to be. Ultimately, perhaps, there should be a <a href="/wiki/Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand" class="mw-redirect" title="Honeywell v. Sperry Rand">Honeywell v. Sperry Rand</a> page and any article will just be able to link to it with a minimum of explication and be done with it. Any further duking out over the interpretations of the ruling can be done there. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-03T18:59:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-08-03T18:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-03T18:59:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-08-03T18:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-03T18:59:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-08-03T18:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blainster-2006-08-03T22:19:00.000Z-Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary"></span>Your recent wording is fine on its own, except that it eliminated the WP internal links to existing discussion of the court case (eliminating the external link from an introductory par. is a good move, though). That prevents a reader from learning more about it. We should either redirect the redlink to an existing article, create the caselaw article, or otherwise link to the WP info about it. --<a href="/wiki/User:Blainster" title="User:Blainster">Blainster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Blainster-2006-08-03T22:19:00.000Z-Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:19, 3 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blainster-2006-08-03T22:19:00.000Z-Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blainster-2006-08-03T22:19:00.000Z-Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand_Ruling_summary"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-05T08:51:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-08-03T22:19:00.000Z"></span>Caselaw article created. Please feel free to improve it. I hope additions and corrections will make the article <i>more neutral</i> rather than <i>less neutral</i>. It is not my intention to have created a place for controversy to blossom into vandalism, reverts, airing of unsubstantiated claims, etc. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-05T08:51:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-08-03T22:19:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-05T08:51:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-08-03T22:19:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-05T08:51:00.000Z-Blainster-2006-08-03T22:19:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""Rewiring_to_reprogram"_vs._Turing-completeness_of_ENIAC?" data-mw-thread-id="h-"Rewiring_to_reprogram"_vs._Turing-completeness_of_ENIAC?-2006-08-13T08:41:00.000Z"><span id=".22Rewiring_to_reprogram.22_vs._Turing-completeness_of_ENIAC.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"Rewiring_to_reprogram"_vs._Turing-completeness_of_ENIAC?-2006-08-13T08:41:00.000Z"></span>"Rewiring to reprogram" vs. Turing-completeness of ENIAC?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"Rewiring_to_reprogram"_vs._Turing-completeness_of_ENIAC?-2006-08-13T08:41:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=19" title="Edit section: "Rewiring to reprogram" vs. Turing-completeness of ENIAC?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Michael_Zimmermann-2006-08-13T08:41:00.000Z-"Rewiring_to_reprogram"_vs._Turing-completeness_of_ENIAC?"></span>Until 1948, ENIAC required rewiring to reprogram, like the Colossus.</i> </p><p>How does this "rewiring to reprogram" relate to the Turing-completeness of ENIAC? Unfortunately, I can't find any information about this in the article, except that the comparison table says "yes". - Was this proven by anyone, like the Turing-completeness of the Z3? Without Turing-completeness you can hardly speak of a true general purpose computer. <a href="/wiki/User:Michael_Zimmermann" title="User:Michael Zimmermann">MikeZ</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Michael_Zimmermann-2006-08-13T08:41:00.000Z-"Rewiring_to_reprogram"_vs._Turing-completeness_of_ENIAC?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Michael_Zimmermann-2006-08-13T08:41:00.000Z-"Rewiring_to_reprogram"_vs._Turing-completeness_of_ENIAC?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Michael_Zimmermann-2006-08-13T08:41:00.000Z-"Rewiring_to_reprogram"_vs._Turing-completeness_of_ENIAC?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Vaughan_Pratt-2008-03-26T20:29:00.000Z-Michael_Zimmermann-2006-08-13T08:41:00.000Z"></span>This thought occurred to me too when I read the article, so I was happy to find the question already raised here. However I don't believe it is problematic if understood as follows. A Turing machine U is universal when there exists a convention for encoding any Turing machine T as a word e(T) such that for any Turing machine T, when U is started on a tape containing e(T) followed by w, U halts if and only if T halts when started on a tape containing w, and if U halts it leaves the tape in the same configuration T would have left it in when it halted. (So U's task ostensibly is to decode e(T), run T on w, and if T halts clean up all the tape except for T's output.) Universal Turing machines exist, however most Turing machines are not universal in that sense: their finite state control is typically "prewired" to perform some more particular task. Now if it is possible to rewire the ENIAC with a program for reading a list of tuples describing a Turing machine and then emulating that machine, the ENIAC <i>with that rewiring</i> would be as universal as a universal Turing machine. Thus if we understand the ENIAC as a class of computers, and a particular wiring of the ENIAC as making it a particular computer, it is fair to say that the ENIAC is as universal as a Turing machine. From that perspective one can no more say that all rewirings of the ENIAC are universal than that all Turing machines are universal. The crucial distinction from the Colossus is that while the ENIAC was designed to be rewired <i>by its users</i> as a normal part of its operation, the corresponding rewiring of the Colossus would have to be done "at the factory" with a soldering iron and additional vacuum tubes. If you could claim that the Colossus was programmable in that sense, you could equally well call a sedan a convertible because one can saw off the roof. If the user of the ENIAC can program it to read Turing machine tuples, the ENIAC is as universal as the Turing machine. --<a href="/wiki/User:Vaughan_Pratt" title="User:Vaughan Pratt">Vaughan Pratt</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Vaughan_Pratt" title="User talk:Vaughan Pratt">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Vaughan_Pratt-2008-03-26T20:29:00.000Z-Michael_Zimmermann-2006-08-13T08:41:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Vaughan_Pratt-2008-03-26T20:29:00.000Z-Michael_Zimmermann-2006-08-13T08:41:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Vaughan_Pratt-2008-03-26T20:29:00.000Z-Michael_Zimmermann-2006-08-13T08:41:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Electronic_Numerical_Integrator_and_Calculator?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Electronic_Numerical_Integrator_and_Calculator?-2006-08-16T02:23:00.000Z"><span id="Electronic_Numerical_Integrator_and_Calculator.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Electronic_Numerical_Integrator_and_Calculator?-2006-08-16T02:23:00.000Z"></span>Electronic Numerical Integrator and <i>Calculator</i>?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Electronic_Numerical_Integrator_and_Calculator?-2006-08-16T02:23:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=20" title="Edit section: Electronic Numerical Integrator and Calculator?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-16T02:23:00.000Z-Electronic_Numerical_Integrator_and_Calculator?"></span>There have been several attempts today to alter the acronym expansion in the first paragraph of the article, replacing "..and Computer" with "...and Calculator." I'm not sure if this is out of a desire to denigrate the ENIAC, placing it in a lower status than later stored-program machines, or if the editor came across this expansion in bona fide contemporary sources (of which I'm sure several examples exist); in either case, it is assuredly incorrect. The earliest documents refer to the machine as "...and Computer," or in some cases, "...and Computor," which seems to be a misspelling preferred by Mauchly, and the one that made it onto the plaque affixed to the ENIAC, a fact that I don't think bears mentioning in the article proper. In hopes of remedying the vandalism I have added a footnote reference to the Goldstine book. While Goldstine was wrong about several things, on this matter he should be considered authoritative, as he was present at the BRL meeting that proposed the machine and had a clear memory of the device's name (whether or not it originated with Col. Gillon). <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-16T02:23:00.000Z-Electronic_Numerical_Integrator_and_Calculator?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-16T02:23:00.000Z-Electronic_Numerical_Integrator_and_Calculator?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2006-08-16T02:23:00.000Z-Electronic_Numerical_Integrator_and_Calculator?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dominus-2010-07-01T14:23:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2006-08-16T02:23:00.000Z"></span>Someone tried this again today. I checked the cited reference (<style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite id="CITEREFGoldstine1972" class="citation book cs1"><a href="/wiki/Herman_Goldstine" title="Herman Goldstine">Goldstine, Herman H.</a> (1972). <i>The Computer: from Pascal to von Neumann</i>. Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-691-02367-0" title="Special:BookSources/0-691-02367-0"><bdi>0-691-02367-0</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=The+Computer%3A+from+Pascal+to+von+Neumann&rft.place=Princeton%2C+New+Jersey&rft.pub=Princeton+University+Press&rft.date=1972&rft.isbn=0-691-02367-0&rft.aulast=Goldstine&rft.aufirst=Herman+H.&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AENIAC" class="Z3988"></span>), which unvaryingly uses "computer". For example, "At this meeting, Gillon named the proposed machine the Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer and gave it the acronym ENIAC." (Page 150). Goldstine also cites many earlier documents that all use "computer". For example, <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFGoldstineGoldstine1946" class="citation book cs1">Goldstine, H.H; Goldstine, Adele (1946). "The Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer (ENIAC)". <i>Mathematical Tables and Other Aids to Computation</i>. Vol. II. pp. 97–110.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=The+Electronic+Numerical+Integrator+and+Computer+%28ENIAC%29&rft.btitle=Mathematical+Tables+and+Other+Aids+to+Computation&rft.pages=97-110&rft.date=1946&rft.aulast=Goldstine&rft.aufirst=H.H&rft.au=Goldstine%2C+Adele&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AENIAC" class="Z3988"></span>. —<a href="/wiki/User:Dominus" title="User:Dominus">Mark Dominus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dominus" title="User talk:Dominus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Dominus-2010-07-01T14:23:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2006-08-16T02:23:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:23, 1 July 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dominus-2010-07-01T14:23:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2006-08-16T02:23:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dominus-2010-07-01T14:23:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2006-08-16T02:23:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Court_case" data-mw-thread-id="h-Court_case-2006-09-02T05:01:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Court_case-2006-09-02T05:01:00.000Z"></span>Court case<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Court_case-2006-09-02T05:01:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=21" title="Edit section: Court case"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-220.239.157.232-2006-09-02T05:01:00.000Z-Court_case"></span>I believe a section should be added highlighting the court case and the fact that for a significant period of history, it was believed to be the first modern computer. The related section on the <a href="/wiki/Atanasoff%E2%80%93Berry_Computer#Controversy" class="mw-redirect" title="Atanasoff–Berry Computer">Atanasoff–Berry Computer#Controversy</a> page would do for a simple copy and paste job! Would a Controversy section do the trick? <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:220.239.157.232&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:220.239.157.232 (page does not exist)">220.239.157.232</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-220.239.157.232-2006-09-02T05:01:00.000Z-Court_case" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-220.239.157.232-2006-09-02T05:01:00.000Z-Court_case"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-220.239.157.232-2006-09-02T05:01:00.000Z-Court_case"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blainster-2006-09-06T22:25:00.000Z-220.239.157.232-2006-09-02T05:01:00.000Z"></span>An entire article discusses this (linked in the third paragraph of this article). Please see <a href="/wiki/Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand" class="mw-redirect" title="Honeywell v. Sperry Rand">Honeywell v. Sperry Rand</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:Blainster" title="User:Blainster">Blainster</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Blainster-2006-09-06T22:25:00.000Z-220.239.157.232-2006-09-02T05:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blainster-2006-09-06T22:25:00.000Z-220.239.157.232-2006-09-02T05:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blainster-2006-09-06T22:25:00.000Z-220.239.157.232-2006-09-02T05:01:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Picture" data-mw-thread-id="h-Picture-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Picture-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z"></span>Picture<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Picture-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=22" title="Edit section: Picture"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z-Picture"></span>Not my turf, guys, but maybe you could be interested in this picture: </p><p><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Women_holding_parts_of_the_first_four_Army_computers.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Women_holding_parts_of_the_first_four_Army_computers.jpg/200px-Women_holding_parts_of_the_first_four_Army_computers.jpg" decoding="async" width="200" height="159" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Women_holding_parts_of_the_first_four_Army_computers.jpg/300px-Women_holding_parts_of_the_first_four_Army_computers.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Women_holding_parts_of_the_first_four_Army_computers.jpg/400px-Women_holding_parts_of_the_first_four_Army_computers.jpg 2x" data-file-width="3793" data-file-height="3009"/></a></span> </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Randroide" title="User:Randroide">Randroide</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z-Picture" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z-Picture"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z-Picture"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-12-03T00:14:00.000Z-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z"></span>Yep, fun picture, more relevant to a discussion of the evolution of computer hardware than the ENIAC itself. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2006-12-03T00:14:00.000Z-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2006-12-03T00:14:00.000Z-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2006-12-03T00:14:00.000Z-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-199.250.57.231-2015-08-18T01:51:00.000Z-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z"></span>The third woman from the left is (perhaps mistakenly) identified in this picture as "Mrs. Milly Beck." However, this woman's face (cropped from this very photo) is used as the image for "Ruth Teitelbaum." See: <a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Teitelbaum">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Teitelbaum</a> <sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-3"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/199.250.57.231" title="Special:Contributions/199.250.57.231">199.250.57.231</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:199.250.57.231" title="User talk:199.250.57.231">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-199.250.57.231-2015-08-18T01:51:00.000Z-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:51, 18 August 2015 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-199.250.57.231-2015-08-18T01:51:00.000Z-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z"></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-199.250.57.231-2015-08-18T01:51:00.000Z-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></li></ul> <ul><li><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T16:39:00.000Z-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z"></span>The first woman from the left has a module of 1 byte of memory in their hands. (perhaps mistakenly) I think every women on the picture is presenting 1 byte of memory of diffrent ages.</li></ul> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Just to be clear, the person third from left is not Ruth Teitelbaum. That ID and upload, which stayed up on the <a href="/wiki/Ruth_Teitelbaum" title="Ruth Teitelbaum">Ruth Teitelbaum</a> article for years without being caught, was made by an account that has since been deleted for sockpuppet activity. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T16:39:00.000Z-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:39, 16 November 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T16:39:00.000Z-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T16:39:00.000Z-Randroide-2006-12-02T17:44:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Z3_part_of_war_effort?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Z3_part_of_war_effort?-2006-12-04T09:46:00.000Z"><span id="Z3_part_of_war_effort.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Z3_part_of_war_effort?-2006-12-04T09:46:00.000Z"></span>Z3 part of war effort?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Z3_part_of_war_effort?-2006-12-04T09:46:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=23" title="Edit section: Z3 part of war effort?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adrian_Robson-2006-12-04T09:46:00.000Z-Z3_part_of_war_effort?"></span>The article says: "The Z3, Colossus and ENIAC were developed independently and in secret as part of each country's war effort in World War II. The Z3 was destroyed by Allied bombing of Berlin in 1944.... For these reasons, histories of computing formerly mentioned only ENIAC and the Harvard Mark I from this period." </p><p>Certainly Colossus was part of the war effort but is this true for the Z3? The Z3 article is rather sparse and doesn't mention it. But the <a href="/wiki/Konrad_Zuse" title="Konrad Zuse">Konrad Zuse</a> article says: "Zuse never received the official support that computer pioneers in Allied countries, such as Alan Turing, managed to get. The telephone relays used in his machines were largely collected from discarded stock. A request by his co-worker Helmut Schreyer to the war-time government for federal funding for an electronic successor to the Z3 was denied as 'strategically unimportant'." </p><p>Does anyone know which article is correct? Was the Z3 part of the war effort or not? As for "histories of computing (mentioning) only ENIAC and the Harvard Mark I", maybe this statement is just based on English language histories. Is it certain that German language histories of computing mentioned only ENIAC and the Harvard Mark I? <a href="/wiki/User:Adrian_Robson" title="User:Adrian Robson">Adrian Robson</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Adrian_Robson-2006-12-04T09:46:00.000Z-Z3_part_of_war_effort?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adrian_Robson-2006-12-04T09:46:00.000Z-Z3_part_of_war_effort?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adrian_Robson-2006-12-04T09:46:00.000Z-Z3_part_of_war_effort?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adrian_Robson-2007-01-26T09:50:00.000Z-Adrian_Robson-2006-12-04T09:46:00.000Z"></span>Question answered on <a href="/wiki/Talk:Z3" title="Talk:Z3">Talk:Z3</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Adrian_Robson" title="User:Adrian Robson">Adrian Robson</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Adrian_Robson-2007-01-26T09:50:00.000Z-Adrian_Robson-2006-12-04T09:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adrian_Robson-2007-01-26T09:50:00.000Z-Adrian_Robson-2006-12-04T09:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adrian_Robson-2007-01-26T09:50:00.000Z-Adrian_Robson-2006-12-04T09:46:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Schily-2015-08-18T10:41:00.000Z-Adrian_Robson-2007-01-26T09:50:00.000Z"></span>AFAIK, Zuse received his funding from developing special computers for the <a href="/wiki/Henschel_Hs_293" title="Henschel Hs 293">Henschel Hs 293</a>, the precursor of today's cruise missiles. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Schily&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Schily (page does not exist)">Schily</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Schily" title="User talk:Schily">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Schily-2015-08-18T10:41:00.000Z-Adrian_Robson-2007-01-26T09:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:41, 18 August 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Schily-2015-08-18T10:41:00.000Z-Adrian_Robson-2007-01-26T09:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Schily-2015-08-18T10:41:00.000Z-Adrian_Robson-2007-01-26T09:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Speed" data-mw-thread-id="h-Speed-2007-01-14T20:42:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Speed-2007-01-14T20:42:00.000Z"></span>Speed<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Speed-2007-01-14T20:42:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=24" title="Edit section: Speed"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Linus_M.-2007-01-14T20:42:00.000Z-Speed"></span>Does anyone know how fast the ENIAC was in <a href="/wiki/Megahertz" class="mw-redirect" title="Megahertz">MHz</a>, or a comparable unit? <a href="/wiki/User:Linus_M." title="User:Linus M.">Hey, my warranty didn't run out after all!</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Linus_M.-2007-01-14T20:42:00.000Z-Speed" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Linus_M.-2007-01-14T20:42:00.000Z-Speed"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Linus_M.-2007-01-14T20:42:00.000Z-Speed"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2007-01-14T21:00:00.000Z-Linus_M.-2007-01-14T20:42:00.000Z"></span>That information is in the third paragraph of the description. The ENIAC machine cycle speed cannot be compared directly to modern CPU clock cycles because (for the problems it was designed to run) it was so much more parallel than today's typical architectures. Possibly the closest comparison would be to the <a href="/wiki/Cell_microprocessor" class="mw-redirect" title="Cell microprocessor">Cell microprocessor</a> found in the <a href="/wiki/PlayStation_3" title="PlayStation 3">PlayStation 3</a>, which uses a master Power Processor Element to control, in parallel, its eight Synergistic Processor Elements, which is broadly analogous to the way the ENIAC's master control panel could control its many accumulators, high-speed multiplier, divider/square-rooter, <i>etc.</i> <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2007-01-14T21:00:00.000Z-Linus_M.-2007-01-14T20:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2007-01-14T21:00:00.000Z-Linus_M.-2007-01-14T20:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2007-01-14T21:00:00.000Z-Linus_M.-2007-01-14T20:42:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-68.3.63.127-2010-11-10T04:37:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2007-01-14T21:00:00.000Z"></span>Then how about math operations per second? Any kind of measurement is better than none at all. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/68.3.63.127" title="Special:Contributions/68.3.63.127">68.3.63.127</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:68.3.63.127&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:68.3.63.127 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-68.3.63.127-2010-11-10T04:37:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2007-01-14T21:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-68.3.63.127-2010-11-10T04:37:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2007-01-14T21:00:00.000Z"></span></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-68.3.63.127-2010-11-10T04:37:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2007-01-14T21:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Architecture!" data-mw-thread-id="h-Architecture!-2007-11-11T03:39:00.000Z"><span id="Architecture.21"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Architecture!-2007-11-11T03:39:00.000Z"></span>Architecture!<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Architecture!-2007-11-11T03:39:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=25" title="Edit section: Architecture!"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2007-11-11T03:39:00.000Z-Architecture!"></span>The one thing this article lacks is a description of how ENIAC actually worked. A fetishistic listing of its size, weight, number of valves and panoply of functional units does not tell you this. Rather, you need to know about how the bits fitted together, and how they were configured and controlled. This is difficult, because ENIAC is so different from modern post-<a href="/wiki/Manchester_Small-Scale_Experimental_Machine" class="mw-redirect" title="Manchester Small-Scale Experimental Machine"> Baby</a> computers, but it has to be done. This is absolutely crucial to understanding ENIAC's place as a transitional form between things like differential analysers and the modern concept of a computer, and deciding whether you think it was truly a programmable machine: before von Neumann's 1948 modifications, there was no stored program, but rather an implicit program embodied in the way the largely autonomous functional units were cabled together. </p><p>The only good account of ENIAC's architecture written for modern readers that i've found is in a paper by <a href="/w/index.php?title=Atsushi_Akera&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Atsushi Akera (page does not exist)">Atsushi Akera</a>: </p><p>Exploring the architecture of an early machine: the historical relevance of the Eniac machine architecture - A. Akera, M. Marcus (1996); IEEE Annals of the History of Computing 18(1):17 </p><p>Which is sadly behind a subscription wall. I've read it, but still don't understand it well enough to be able to write a good description of the architecture. Does anyone fancy doing this? Pleeeeeease? </p><p>-- Tom Anderson 2007-07-17 21:50 +0100 </p> <dl><dd>Re: "But it has to be done"--such a functional description of the ENIAC, any more than one or two paragraphs (which I think would be insufficient for the type of description you seek), is quite beyond the scope of this article. The 1981 Burks & Burks article for the <i>Annals</i> is well over a hundred pages and barely scratches the surface in this regard. Those looking for information about how the ENIAC worked would be advised to seek more complete, more authoritative sources than a Wikipedia article. It is enough for this article to say what the computer was, what function it served, who built it, and some of the particulars of its technological and political history. In other words, its significance to the history of computing as a whole. (In the details of its implementation, it lends little to that history, as virtually everything about its logical and electronic design was quickly superseded.) <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2007-11-11T03:39:00.000Z-Architecture!" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2007-11-11T03:39:00.000Z-Architecture!"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2007-11-11T03:39:00.000Z-Architecture!"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading3"><h3 id="An_uncommon_perspective_on_origins_of_the_ENIAC's_architecture" data-mw-thread-id="h-An_uncommon_perspective_on_origins_of_the_ENIAC's_architecture-Architecture!-2012-12-06T10:25:00.000Z"><span id="An_uncommon_perspective_on_origins_of_the_ENIAC.27s_architecture"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-An_uncommon_perspective_on_origins_of_the_ENIAC's_architecture-Architecture!-2012-12-06T10:25:00.000Z"></span>An uncommon perspective on origins of the ENIAC's architecture<span data-mw-comment-end="h-An_uncommon_perspective_on_origins_of_the_ENIAC's_architecture-Architecture!-2012-12-06T10:25:00.000Z"></span></h3><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=26" title="Edit section: An uncommon perspective on origins of the ENIAC's architecture"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TedColes-2012-12-06T10:25:00.000Z-An_uncommon_perspective_on_origins_of_the_ENIAC's_architecture"></span>From reading in past years, I rather vividly recall how lots of Friden four-function desktop calculators (Perhaps model STWs, or possibly STs) were operated by women. Despite their best efforts (and I do believe they were quite conscientious), the whole operation went awfully slowly. Apparently there were many stages of computation, and the results read from the calculator carriage dials had to be transcribed and manually entered into other calculators designated to handle a later stage of the problem. Earlier in my life, I learned about details of the Friden mechanical line, and have had a sustained (but waning!) interest in mechanical calculators. As well, I have been relatively well informed about electronics, having once seen schematics of the ENIAC decimal accumulators (probably in the IEEE Annals / Hist. / Computing). Most of my lifetime work was as an electronic technician. </p><p>What seems quite evident, although I have never read this idea explicitly, was that a major bottleneck in the slowness of the bank-of-calculators effort was the time required to transfer the contents of one calculator's result dials to another calculator's keyboard to be used for a calculation. </p><p>I strongly suspect that the basic concept of ENIAC was to "simulate" ten places of the Friden 20-place result (accumulator) dials, or the 10-place quotient dials. This was done by the 10-digit decimal accumulators. Cables interconnected the ENIAC accumulators, tremendously speeding up transfer of intermediate results. As well, Fridens were limited to 10 operations per second; even the wondrously ingenious and sophisticated Marchants operated at only 1300 cycles per minute. As well, entering numbers manually took seconds per calculation. </p><p>It seems to me that the ENIAC designers wanted to interconnect the decimal accumulators via pluggable cables, with the specific arrangement depending upon the problem to be solved. As well, calculation speed was hardly a trivial enhancement, in particular for mult., division, and square root. (Was the Friden SRW, which did square root, developed to assist in ballistics calculations? Would be interesting to know!) (The SRW used the division mechanism, with a quite-modest increase in complexity of the total machine, perhaps 10% or so. Think of it as a division operation, but with a constantly-increasing number in the keyboard.) </p><p>After WW II, (almost certain), Friden sold Computypers, business/accounting machines with Flexowriter input and output. Those were via paper tape or edge-punched cards, the latter using paper tape standards, as well as keyboard and typed documents. Inside the machine was an STW mechanism with solenoids operating the keystems and rotary switches on the shafts of the result dials -- it had electrical input, output, and commands. It's just possible that the electrical I/O had its origins in trying to speed up the earlier partly-human effort. (Of course, the actual computations were no faster in the Computyper than in a desktop calculator.) </p><p>Regards, Nikevich 10:08, 6 December 2012 (UTC) </p> <dl><dd>What a fascinting speculation. But are there any souces that can be cited to provide evidence?--<a href="/wiki/User:TedColes" title="User:TedColes">TedColes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TedColes" title="User talk:TedColes">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-TedColes-2012-12-06T10:25:00.000Z-An_uncommon_perspective_on_origins_of_the_ENIAC's_architecture" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:25, 6 December 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TedColes-2012-12-06T10:25:00.000Z-An_uncommon_perspective_on_origins_of_the_ENIAC's_architecture"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TedColes-2012-12-06T10:25:00.000Z-An_uncommon_perspective_on_origins_of_the_ENIAC's_architecture"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Turing_completeness" data-mw-thread-id="h-Turing_completeness-2007-09-14T13:08:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Turing_completeness-2007-09-14T13:08:00.000Z"></span>Turing completeness<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Turing_completeness-2007-09-14T13:08:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=27" title="Edit section: Turing completeness"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Phrood-2007-09-14T13:08:00.000Z-Turing_completeness"></span>I have a few questions (please give references when answering): </p> <ul><li>Was the ENIAC <i>designed</i> to be Turing complete?</li> <li>If not, which was the first machine <i>designed</i> to be Turing complete?</li> <li>When was it first shown that the ENIAC was Turing complete?</li></ul> <p>Thanks, --<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Phrood&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Phrood (page does not exist)">Phrood</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Phrood-2007-09-14T13:08:00.000Z-Turing_completeness" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Phrood-2007-09-14T13:08:00.000Z-Turing_completeness"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Phrood-2007-09-14T13:08:00.000Z-Turing_completeness"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tsf-2016-02-14T16:22:00.000Z-Turing_completeness"></span>I doubt ENIAC designers Mauchly (a physicist) and Eckert (an engineer) even new about Turing's paper which introduced the notion of a universal machine, later called Turing machine. This theoretical paper was published in 1936 in a mathematical journal and it took quite a few years to be known outside of a very specialised community of logicians. On the other hand, it is known that John von Neumann was familiar with this work, but it is not clear whether the design of EDVAC in which he took part was influenced by Turing's ideas. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Tsf&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Tsf (page does not exist)">Tsf</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tsf" title="User talk:Tsf">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Tsf-2016-02-14T16:22:00.000Z-Turing_completeness" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:22, 14 February 2016 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tsf-2016-02-14T16:22:00.000Z-Turing_completeness"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tsf-2016-02-14T16:22:00.000Z-Turing_completeness"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Programmability_and_von_Neumann" data-mw-thread-id="h-Programmability_and_von_Neumann-2007-11-10T20:08:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Programmability_and_von_Neumann-2007-11-10T20:08:00.000Z"></span>Programmability and von Neumann<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Programmability_and_von_Neumann-2007-11-10T20:08:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=28" title="Edit section: Programmability and von Neumann"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stuidge-2007-11-10T20:08:00.000Z-Programmability_and_von_Neumann"></span>The third paragraph in this section is largely wrong. Von Neumann never intended to take credit for himself, and it was well known by Eckert and Mauchly that he was writing a report. They gave him the go ahead. It was a draft and was released prematurely by the Moore school (Goldstine specifically) because of the large amount of doubt in other academics that the project would succeed. Having such an influential man behind it added a lot of credibilty. This section cites no sources, and needs to be edited drastically. Sadly I have no time at the moment. </p><p>See Mauchly, "Amending the EDVAC story" for verification of the above. <a href="/wiki/User:Stuidge" title="User:Stuidge">Stuk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Stuidge-2007-11-10T20:08:00.000Z-Programmability_and_von_Neumann" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:08, 10 November 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stuidge-2007-11-10T20:08:00.000Z-Programmability_and_von_Neumann"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stuidge-2007-11-10T20:08:00.000Z-Programmability_and_von_Neumann"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2007-11-11T01:52:00.000Z-Stuidge-2007-11-10T20:08:00.000Z"></span>Well, I've tried to pare down some of the unsourced "POV"-y material. Feel free to take another stab at it/provide sourcing. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2007-11-11T01:52:00.000Z-Stuidge-2007-11-10T20:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:52, 11 November 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2007-11-11T01:52:00.000Z-Stuidge-2007-11-10T20:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2007-11-11T01:52:00.000Z-Stuidge-2007-11-10T20:08:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="The_Story_Interview" data-mw-thread-id="h-The_Story_Interview-2008-01-16T18:43:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-The_Story_Interview-2008-01-16T18:43:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/The_Story_with_Dick_Gordon" title="The Story with Dick Gordon">The Story</a> Interview<span data-mw-comment-end="h-The_Story_Interview-2008-01-16T18:43:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=29" title="Edit section: The Story Interview"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/The_Story_with_Dick_Gordon" title="The Story with Dick Gordon"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jouster-2008-01-16T18:43:00.000Z-The_Story_Interview"></span>The Story</a> recently <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://thestory.org/archive/search_media?review_state=published&start.query:record:list:date=2008-01-16%2023%3A59%3A59&start.range:record=max&end.query:record:list:date=2008-01-16%2000%3A00%3A00&end.range:record=min&month:int=1&year:int=2008">interviewed</a> Mrs. Bartik, and may provide some additional information or references for this article. <span style="font-family: monospace"><a href="/wiki/User:Jouster" title="User:Jouster">Jouster</a></span> (<span style="font-size: smaller; background: black;"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jouster" title="User talk:Jouster"><span style="color:white">whisper</span></a></span>) 18:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC) <font size="1pt">This post restored after vandalism</font> <a href="/wiki/User:Cuddlyable3" title="User:Cuddlyable3">Cuddlyable3</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cuddlyable3" title="User talk:Cuddlyable3">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Jouster-2008-01-16T18:43:00.000Z-The_Story_Interview" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jouster-2008-01-16T18:43:00.000Z-The_Story_Interview"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jouster-2008-01-16T18:43:00.000Z-The_Story_Interview"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="First_sentence_claims" data-mw-thread-id="h-First_sentence_claims-2008-10-10T11:58:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-First_sentence_claims-2008-10-10T11:58:00.000Z"></span>First sentence claims<span data-mw-comment-end="h-First_sentence_claims-2008-10-10T11:58:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=30" title="Edit section: First sentence claims"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bugfindersolas-2008-10-10T11:58:00.000Z-First_sentence_claims"></span>The article states that "[Eniac] was the first Turing-complete, digital computer capable of being reprogrammed to solve a full range of computing problems". This is not the case however. The German Z3 computer, built in 1941, was Turing complete. I present this source: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/wrapper.jsp?arnumber=707574">http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/wrapper.jsp?arnumber=707574</a> </p><p>The source, from 1996, claiming otherwise is outdated, since Z3 was proven Turing complete in 1998 <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Bugfindersolas&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Bugfindersolas (page does not exist)">Bugfindersolas</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bugfindersolas&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Bugfindersolas (page does not exist)">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bugfindersolas" title="Special:Contributions/Bugfindersolas">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bugfindersolas-2008-10-10T11:58:00.000Z-First_sentence_claims" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)</a></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bugfindersolas-2008-10-10T11:58:00.000Z-First_sentence_claims"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bugfindersolas-2008-10-10T11:58:00.000Z-First_sentence_claims"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jfgrcar-2009-02-24T22:31:00.000Z-First_sentence_claims"></span>As many commentators have noted, this article is somewhat misleading regarding the claims of first this or that. A modern computer has 3 attributes: 1) digital, 2) electronic, ie, operating without moving parts, and 3) programmable, which means running off of an electronically stored program. Neither the ENIAC (as first designed) nor the Colossus were programmable. The first machine that satisfied all 3 criteria is generally presumed to have been the Manchester Baby. <a href="/wiki/User:Jfgrcar" title="User:Jfgrcar">Jfgrcar</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jfgrcar" title="User talk:Jfgrcar">talk</a>) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">undated</a> comment was added on <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Jfgrcar-2009-02-24T22:31:00.000Z-First_sentence_claims" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:31, 24 February 2009 (UTC)</a>.</span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jfgrcar-2009-02-24T22:31:00.000Z-First_sentence_claims"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jfgrcar-2009-02-24T22:31:00.000Z-First_sentence_claims"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SimonTrew-2009-02-28T15:16:00.000Z-Jfgrcar-2009-02-24T22:31:00.000Z"></span>In the LEO article I added, I thought fairly reaonably, "contender as the" to the bald assertion that ENIAC was the "first general-purpose electronic computer". This has now been reverted twice. Opinions? Really this talk is more suitable to be discussed in the LEO talk pages but since have been told by the editor making the reverts to discuss it here, that is what I shall do. I see less harm in this article making the bald statemenet (though I disagree with it) but I can't see why it should spread out into other articles. It was marked as "weasel words" but I don't think indicating, OUTSIDE OF THE ENIAC ARTICLE ITSELF, that it is not a bald fact. <a href="/wiki/User:SimonTrew" title="User:SimonTrew">SimonTrew</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SimonTrew" title="User talk:SimonTrew">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-SimonTrew-2009-02-28T15:16:00.000Z-Jfgrcar-2009-02-24T22:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:16, 28 February 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SimonTrew-2009-02-28T15:16:00.000Z-Jfgrcar-2009-02-24T22:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SimonTrew-2009-02-28T15:16:00.000Z-Jfgrcar-2009-02-24T22:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zebbie-2009-03-16T20:46:00.000Z-SimonTrew-2009-02-28T15:16:00.000Z"></span>It is indeed "the first general-purpose electronic computer". Regarding "a" vs "the": If the ENIAC was "a" general-purpose electronic computer then it had to be "the first." There are no claims that the ABC, the Colossus, or the Z3 were "other" general-purpose electronic computers. The ABC and the Colossus were clearly not general-purpose, without multipliers, branching or even a sequence of instructions. The Z3 was clearly not electronic, running at 5 Hz. Programmability is essential; however the significance of the stored-program is greatly misunderstood. Its importance was speed. Paper tape was the conventional method of sequencing machines at the time. It could never, ever keep up with electronics. The breakthrough was a sequencing method that was NOT mechanical, allowing machines to run at Megahertz speeds. The ENIAC managed to do this without using precious RAM; only plugboards and switches. That did not make it a less capable machine; in fact it was much faster than the first few EDVAC-type machines like the Baby. I think it is proper to demand that a computer must be programmable and general-purpose, and both the ENIAC and Z3 qualify. Of those, one was electronic and 1000 times faster. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Zebbie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Zebbie (page does not exist)">Zebbie</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Zebbie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Zebbie (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Zebbie-2009-03-16T20:46:00.000Z-SimonTrew-2009-02-28T15:16:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zebbie-2009-03-16T20:46:00.000Z-SimonTrew-2009-02-28T15:16:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zebbie-2009-03-16T20:46:00.000Z-SimonTrew-2009-02-28T15:16:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SimonTrew-2009-03-16T21:08:00.000Z-Zebbie-2009-03-16T20:46:00.000Z"></span>[Regarding ENIAC being "the first general-purpose electronic computer"] I and many others regard that as an opinion rather than a fact, hence our discussion. [Regarding the "a" vs. "the first" distinction] That makes no sense. Either it was the first general purpose electronic computer or it was just another computer. [Regarding the "no claims" that previous computers were both electronic and general-purpose] There are many such claims. My digital watch runs at not much more than 5Hz, are you claiming that is not electronic? [Regarding the assertion that the ENIAC's important advance was its speed] No. Its importance is the Von Neumann architecture, and particularly, the ability to write self-modifying code-- something we still all rely on (a program loader is, after all, self-modifying code, although the technique outside of that particular function is now generally frowned upon). [Regarding paper tape sequencing being the conventional method of sequencing] Some Bletchley peripherals used photoelectic cells to read tape quicker than could be done mechanically. So, no prior claim there. [Regarding the ENIAC being faster than the Z3] Being faster doesn't make it the first— in fact almost by definition you have accepted there were earlier computers. The claim that Z3 was not electronic, I think that's indisputably correct. I think others here have well expressed their terms of definition more succinctly than I could. I don't really mind the claim of being "first" on the ENIAC page (well I am not too happy about it, but it will just be a constant edit war); I dislike that other pages for Colossus, LEO, etc get changed when I put down that they "have a claim to be the first" or language like that. Others might see that as weasel words, but they are not: the claim may, in some eyes, not stand up to scrutiny, but the fact is many have claimed it. <a href="/wiki/User:SimonTrew" title="User:SimonTrew">SimonTrew</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SimonTrew" title="User talk:SimonTrew">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-SimonTrew-2009-03-16T21:08:00.000Z-Zebbie-2009-03-16T20:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SimonTrew-2009-03-16T21:08:00.000Z-Zebbie-2009-03-16T20:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SimonTrew-2009-03-16T21:08:00.000Z-Zebbie-2009-03-16T20:46:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2009-03-17T20:15:00.000Z-SimonTrew-2009-03-16T21:08:00.000Z"></span>Regarding Zebbie's remark about the "electronic" primacy claim and SimonTrew's follow-up, "My digital watch runs at not much more than 5Hz, are you claiming that is not electronic?": What Zebbie is saying is that, in order for a computer's priority claim of being electronic to have any substantial meaning, it must be able to operate so as to take advantage of electronic speeds. The mere presence of electronic components does not render a device "electronic"; if it did, then the <a href="/wiki/Differential_analyzer" class="mw-redirect" title="Differential analyzer">differential analyzer</a> in the basement of the <a href="/wiki/Moore_School" class="mw-redirect" title="Moore School">Moore School</a> was an electronic computer, because Eckert modified it to use electronic torque amplifiers. The ABC computed electronically but operated at ~60 Hz electrical speeds because of the way its memory rotation was timed. I wouldn't argue that that disqualifies calling it an "electronic computer", but even so, it was not a general-purpose electronic computer, and nor were the Z3 or the Colossi. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2009-03-17T20:15:00.000Z-SimonTrew-2009-03-16T21:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2009-03-17T20:15:00.000Z-SimonTrew-2009-03-16T21:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2009-03-17T20:15:00.000Z-SimonTrew-2009-03-16T21:08:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Zebbie-2009-03-20T22:32:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2009-03-17T20:15:00.000Z"></span>I see now my discussion of articles (a and the) was, well, too wordy. I was trying to convey a logic, and that is: <dl><dd>0) Given that the ABC, the Z3, the Colossus, the Mark I and the ENIAC were computers,</dd> <dd>1) The ABC was not general-purpose;</dd> <dd>2) The Colossus was not general-purpose;</dd> <dd>3) The Z3 was not electronic;</dd> <dd>4) The Harvard Mark I was not electronic;</dd> <dd>5) The ENIAC was both general-purpose and electronic.</dd> <dd>6) Therefore it is safe to say that the ENIAC is the ONLY general-purpose electronic computer in this group.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Since it is "the only", it is indeed "the first", and not simply "a."</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Of the above statements, Items 1 through 5 are "bald facts;" I don't know of a challenge to that. There have certainly been many arguments over statement zero (0). Perhaps they are not all "computers." (Most of the arguments spring from a lack of precision in the definition of the word "computer.") <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Zebbie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Zebbie (page does not exist)">Zebbie</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Zebbie&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Zebbie (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Zebbie-2009-03-20T22:32:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2009-03-17T20:15:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:32, 20 March 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Zebbie-2009-03-20T22:32:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2009-03-17T20:15:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Zebbie-2009-03-20T22:32:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2009-03-17T20:15:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-93.97.184.230-2012-07-29T20:50:00.000Z-Zebbie-2009-03-20T22:32:00.000Z"></span>Everything in the above comment is true - but irrelevant because it omits one of the contenders. The SSEM ("Manchester Baby") was digital, electronic, and programmable, the three criteria for a computer listed at the top of this thread. At the time the SSEM was built, ENIAC was not yet programmable (the source in the article for the addition of "a primitive read-only stored programming mechanism" comes from September 1948, and talks of the new facilities being available "by December"; the Manchester Baby had already run its first program in June). <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/93.97.184.230" title="Special:Contributions/93.97.184.230">93.97.184.230</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:93.97.184.230" title="User talk:93.97.184.230">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-93.97.184.230-2012-07-29T20:50:00.000Z-Zebbie-2009-03-20T22:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:50, 29 July 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-93.97.184.230-2012-07-29T20:50:00.000Z-Zebbie-2009-03-20T22:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-93.97.184.230-2012-07-29T20:50:00.000Z-Zebbie-2009-03-20T22:32:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Coders_or_Programmers" data-mw-thread-id="h-Coders_or_Programmers-2009-04-14T11:50:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Coders_or_Programmers-2009-04-14T11:50:00.000Z"></span>Coders or Programmers<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Coders_or_Programmers-2009-04-14T11:50:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=31" title="Edit section: Coders or Programmers"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wallie-2009-04-14T11:50:00.000Z-Coders_or_Programmers"></span>I actually met two of these ladies who worked on Eniac. I was studying computers, and they were introduced in a lecture. They said they were Coders and that there was no such thing as Programmers at the time. They said jokingly that Programnming was invented in the 50s so that men could do computing as well. They explained that women were far more intelligent and it was they who did coding. The coding consisted of series of 0s and 1s, whereas programming was issuing instructions which were translated into 0s and 1s. <a href="/wiki/User:Wallie" title="User:Wallie">Wallie</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wallie" title="User talk:Wallie">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Wallie-2009-04-14T11:50:00.000Z-Coders_or_Programmers" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:50, 14 April 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wallie-2009-04-14T11:50:00.000Z-Coders_or_Programmers"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wallie-2009-04-14T11:50:00.000Z-Coders_or_Programmers"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wtshymanski-2011-01-24T14:06:00.000Z-Coders_or_Programmers"></span>Given that it was 6 women who were writing code for quite some time for ENIAC, there is very little about them in the article. How can the 6 people who used it day-to-day be so marginalized? Wtf people? Seems sexism is alive and well after all... </p> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:BOLD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:BOLD">Cite it and write it.</a> If you know this to be a problem with the article, then you can fix the article. --<a href="/wiki/User:Wtshymanski" title="User:Wtshymanski">Wtshymanski</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wtshymanski" title="User talk:Wtshymanski">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Wtshymanski-2011-01-24T14:06:00.000Z-Coders_or_Programmers" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:06, 24 January 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wtshymanski-2011-01-24T14:06:00.000Z-Coders_or_Programmers"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wtshymanski-2011-01-24T14:06:00.000Z-Coders_or_Programmers"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Programming" data-mw-thread-id="h-Programming-2009-07-08T11:46:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Programming-2009-07-08T11:46:00.000Z"></span>Programming<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Programming-2009-07-08T11:46:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=32" title="Edit section: Programming"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TedColes-2009-07-08T11:46:00.000Z-Programming"></span>Surely <a href="/wiki/John_von_Neumann" title="John von Neumann">von Neumann's</a> early ENIAC programming was on the <a href="/wiki/Atom_bomb" class="mw-redirect" title="Atom bomb">atom bomb</a> not the <a href="/wiki/Hydrogen_bomb" class="mw-redirect" title="Hydrogen bomb">hydrogen bomb</a>? --<a href="/wiki/User:TedColes" title="User:TedColes">TedColes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TedColes" title="User talk:TedColes">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-TedColes-2009-07-08T11:46:00.000Z-Programming" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:46, 8 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TedColes-2009-07-08T11:46:00.000Z-Programming"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TedColes-2009-07-08T11:46:00.000Z-Programming"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2009-07-08T12:45:00.000Z-TedColes-2009-07-08T11:46:00.000Z"></span>It was the hydrogen bomb, and von Neumann wasn't involved. The program was run by Frankel and Metropolis. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2009-07-08T12:45:00.000Z-TedColes-2009-07-08T11:46:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2009-07-08T12:45:00.000Z-TedColes-2009-07-08T11:46:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2009-07-08T12:45:00.000Z-TedColes-2009-07-08T11:46:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TedColes-2009-07-08T15:36:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2009-07-08T12:45:00.000Z"></span>So are you saying that <a href="/wiki/User:GroveGuy" title="User:GroveGuy">GroveGuy's</a> recently added paragraph is quite wrong? --<a href="/wiki/User:TedColes" title="User:TedColes">TedColes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TedColes" title="User talk:TedColes">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-TedColes-2009-07-08T15:36:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2009-07-08T12:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:36, 8 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TedColes-2009-07-08T15:36:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2009-07-08T12:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TedColes-2009-07-08T15:36:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2009-07-08T12:45:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GroveGuy-2009-07-08T22:03:00.000Z-Programming"></span>Sirs: I was reading a book about the H-bomb and saw references to ENIAC. I looked at the wiki article and other articles about ENIAC and was amazed that there was no mention of the H-bomb. I read Goldstine and came to the conclusion that when the Los Alamos people became aware of ENIAC they kind of took over the project - not in terms of design or construction - they simply wanted to use the machine. Indeed, in Goldstine there is no mention of any use of the computer during construction except to run the H-bomb problem. Even after completion most of the production time was spent on H-bomb calculations. Ballistic calculations just got the leftover time slots. When ENIAC was completed its secret classification was removed. But the H-bomb was still ultra secrect. I believe that is why the literature on ENIAC doesn't mention the H-bomb. So, the sentences I added to the ENIAC article were to explain the relationship of ENIAC to the H-bomb project. <a href="/wiki/User:GroveGuy" title="User:GroveGuy">GroveGuy</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GroveGuy" title="User talk:GroveGuy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-GroveGuy-2009-07-08T22:03:00.000Z-Programming" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:03, 8 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GroveGuy-2009-07-08T22:03:00.000Z-Programming"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GroveGuy-2009-07-08T22:03:00.000Z-Programming"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Blainster-2009-07-09T05:08:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2009-07-08T22:03:00.000Z"></span>I moved GroveGuy's addition on the H-bomb calculations from the lede paragraph because the intro is already too long. He objected so I added a brief mention back in. The info in this <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/eniac.html">external link</a> on the article page attributed to the Computer History Museum says that the program run at the public unveiling in Feb 46 was a ballistics trajectory program. But of course how would anyone have known? --<a href="/wiki/User:Blainster" title="User:Blainster">Blainster</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Blainster" title="User talk:Blainster">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Blainster-2009-07-09T05:08:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2009-07-08T22:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:08, 9 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Blainster-2009-07-09T05:08:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2009-07-08T22:03:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Blainster-2009-07-09T05:08:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2009-07-08T22:03:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GroveGuy-2009-07-09T08:41:00.000Z-Blainster-2009-07-09T05:08:00.000Z"></span>Bainster - I am sorry you characterize my words as "complaining". I was trying to use rigorous logic to support having my contribution remain in the lead paragraph. It really doesn't belong in the programming section. As for what was running on the computer on the day it was unveiled, I think they were telling a white lie. <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/96summary/index.html">This article</a> says they postponed moving ENIAC to Aberdeen (until November 1946) in order to complete the test of the H-bomb calculations. A million punch cards - it boggles the mind. <a href="/wiki/User:GroveGuy" title="User:GroveGuy">GroveGuy</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GroveGuy" title="User talk:GroveGuy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-GroveGuy-2009-07-09T08:41:00.000Z-Blainster-2009-07-09T05:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:41, 9 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GroveGuy-2009-07-09T08:41:00.000Z-Blainster-2009-07-09T05:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GroveGuy-2009-07-09T08:41:00.000Z-Blainster-2009-07-09T05:08:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2009-07-09T14:07:00.000Z-Programming"></span>Metropolis and Frankel ran the hydrogen bomb problem from December 1945 to February 1946. AFAIK the whole ENIAC construction staff and programming team was involved with the problem inasmuch as the problem represented a shakedown cruise of the ENIAC architecture, though no one outside of Los Alamos was apprised of the calculations' significance or the meaning of the result. With hostilities concluded, the firing tables were less of a priority than the Los Alamos work, so it was only natural that the ENIAC would be put to this use as a shakedown problem. It was assuredly not the first test problem run on the ENIAC hardware (e.g., <a href="/wiki/Derrick_Henry_Lehmer" class="mw-redirect" title="Derrick Henry Lehmer">Lehmer</a> ran one of his number sieves over the previous Thanksgiving weekend) but it was probably the first major problem of military importance. Little is known about the calculations since they remain unreleased, but several sources, including McCartney (page 104), indicate that the results of the problem run on the ENIAC showed that Teller's proposed formulation was flawed and prompted a revised theory. Judge Larson's decision <a href="/wiki/Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand" class="mw-redirect" title="Honeywell v. Sperry Rand">invalidating the ENIAC patent</a> was justified in part on this H-bomb shakedown cruise, calling it a "non-experimental public use" that occurred prior to the patent filing's critical date. Hope this clarifies. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2009-07-09T14:07:00.000Z-Programming" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2009-07-09T14:07:00.000Z-Programming"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2009-07-09T14:07:00.000Z-Programming"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Size_and_Reliability" data-mw-thread-id="h-Size_and_Reliability-2009-11-15T11:22:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Size_and_Reliability-2009-11-15T11:22:00.000Z"></span>Size and Reliability<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Size_and_Reliability-2009-11-15T11:22:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=33" title="Edit section: Size and Reliability"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jgrudin-2009-11-15T11:22:00.000Z-Size_and_Reliability"></span>The article says ENIAC occupied about 680 sq. feet. However, the dimensions provided would put it at around 2000 sq feet, and the specifications in a cited article indicate that it is 1800 sq feet. Could someone resolve this significant discrepancy? I have read claims that someone patrolled with a shopping cart of vacuum tubes, but current reports of tube failure make that seem unlikely, if anyone has a definitive statement I would be interested. <a href="/wiki/User:Jgrudin" title="User:Jgrudin">Jgrudin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jgrudin" title="User talk:Jgrudin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Jgrudin-2009-11-15T11:22:00.000Z-Size_and_Reliability" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:22, 15 November 2009 (UTC)</a>jgrudin<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jgrudin-2009-11-15T11:22:00.000Z-Size_and_Reliability"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jgrudin-2009-11-15T11:22:00.000Z-Size_and_Reliability"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC" data-mw-thread-id="h-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z"></span><a href="/wiki/Colossus_computer" title="Colossus computer">Colossus computer</a> a few months earlier than <a href="/wiki/ENIAC" title="ENIAC">ENIAC</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=34" title="Edit section: Colossus computer a few months earlier than ENIAC"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-78.144.207.126-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC"></span>If you read and compare the <a href="/wiki/Colossus_computer" title="Colossus computer">Colossus computer</a> and <a href="/wiki/ENIAC" title="ENIAC">ENIAC</a> articles in detail, it appears that the Colossus computer was earlier. Thus the claim of ENIAC being the first computer is debatable. But I suppose you could add lots of qualifications to your definition of computer to make ENIAC earlier. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/78.144.207.126" title="Special:Contributions/78.144.207.126">78.144.207.126</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:78.144.207.126&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:78.144.207.126 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-78.144.207.126-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-78.144.207.126-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-78.144.207.126-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TedColes-2009-12-15T23:11:00.000Z-78.144.207.126-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z"></span>There is no doubt that Colossus was working and serving its end users in February 1944, at least two years before the same could be said to be true of ENIAC. The problem lies in defining 'computer'. ENIAC had more of the characteristics of today's computers than Colossus did, but did not have its program stored in volatile memory as was the case with the <a href="/wiki/Manchester_Small-Scale_Experimental_Machine" class="mw-redirect" title="Manchester Small-Scale Experimental Machine">SSEM</a>. <strike>Colossus</strike> ENIAC was, however a general-purpose machine whereas Colossus was designed and implemented for a narrow range of special purposes. The phrase 'the first computer' is not very helpful, and the apparent suggestion that the definition of 'computer' should be qualified to ensure that ENIAC comes out as the first, does not do justice to the various parallel developments in different places that happened in the 1940s.--<a href="/wiki/User:TedColes" title="User:TedColes">TedColes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TedColes" title="User talk:TedColes">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-TedColes-2009-12-15T23:11:00.000Z-78.144.207.126-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:11, 15 December 2009 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TedColes-2009-12-15T23:11:00.000Z-78.144.207.126-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TedColes-2009-12-15T23:11:00.000Z-78.144.207.126-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jpaulm-2010-06-12T15:44:00.000Z-78.144.207.126-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z"></span>"Colossus was, however a general-purpose machine whereas Colossus was designed and implemented for a narrow range of special purposes." Which was it? General-purpose or special purpose? <a href="/wiki/User:Jpaulm" title="User:Jpaulm">Jpaulm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jpaulm" title="User talk:Jpaulm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Jpaulm-2010-06-12T15:44:00.000Z-78.144.207.126-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:44, 12 June 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jpaulm-2010-06-12T15:44:00.000Z-78.144.207.126-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jpaulm-2010-06-12T15:44:00.000Z-78.144.207.126-2009-12-15T22:37:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GroveGuy-2010-06-12T20:09:00.000Z-Jpaulm-2010-06-12T15:44:00.000Z"></span>I'm sure this was a typo. Ted must have meant to say "ENIAC was, however a general-purpose machine whereas Colossus was designed and implemented for a narrow range of special purposes." <a href="/wiki/User:GroveGuy" title="User:GroveGuy">GroveGuy</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GroveGuy" title="User talk:GroveGuy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-GroveGuy-2010-06-12T20:09:00.000Z-Jpaulm-2010-06-12T15:44:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:09, 12 June 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GroveGuy-2010-06-12T20:09:00.000Z-Jpaulm-2010-06-12T15:44:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GroveGuy-2010-06-12T20:09:00.000Z-Jpaulm-2010-06-12T15:44:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TedColes-2010-06-12T22:37:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2010-06-12T20:09:00.000Z"></span>Yes, that is what I meant to say. My apologies. --<a href="/wiki/User:TedColes" title="User:TedColes">TedColes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TedColes" title="User talk:TedColes">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-TedColes-2010-06-12T22:37:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2010-06-12T20:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:37, 12 June 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TedColes-2010-06-12T22:37:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2010-06-12T20:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TedColes-2010-06-12T22:37:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2010-06-12T20:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Quantumelfmage-2010-07-29T22:42:00.000Z-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC"></span>Both the Colossus and the <a href="/wiki/Zuse_Z3" class="mw-redirect" title="Zuse Z3">Zuse Z3</a> were earlier computers under different definitions of computers. I think it's misleading to describe ENIAC as the first computer using a highly qualified definition. ~~<a href="/wiki/User:Quantumelfmage" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Quantumelfmage">Andrew Keenan Richardson</a>~~ <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Quantumelfmage-2010-07-29T22:42:00.000Z-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:42, 29 July 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Quantumelfmage-2010-07-29T22:42:00.000Z-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Quantumelfmage-2010-07-29T22:42:00.000Z-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JamesGeddes-2014-08-20T20:21:00.000Z-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC"></span>ENIAC should <b>not</b> be described as the first computer. Colossus most certainly came before it and it provided a significantly more remarkable service to humanity than ENIAC. <a href="/wiki/User:Quantumelfmage" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Quantumelfmage">Andrew Keenan Richardson</a> is right, using a highly qualified definition to allow it to be called the first is misleading. <a href="/wiki/User:JamesGeddes" title="User:JamesGeddes">JamesGeddes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JamesGeddes" title="User talk:JamesGeddes">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-JamesGeddes-2014-08-20T20:21:00.000Z-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:21, 20 August 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JamesGeddes-2014-08-20T20:21:00.000Z-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JamesGeddes-2014-08-20T20:21:00.000Z-Colossus_computer_a_few_months_earlier_than_ENIAC"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="...and_Calculator,_or_..._and_Computer" data-mw-thread-id="h-...and_Calculator,_or_..._and_Computer-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z"><span id="...and_Calculator.2C_or_..._and_Computer"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-...and_Calculator,_or_..._and_Computer-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z"></span>...and Calculator, or ... and Computer<span data-mw-comment-end="h-...and_Calculator,_or_..._and_Computer-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=35" title="Edit section: ...and Calculator, or ... and Computer"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-141.153.57.114-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z-...and_Calculator,_or_..._and_Computer"></span>I am a Computer Science major from the 90's. I read many books on the history of computers and I dedicated their related acronyms to memory. </p><p>Memory serves that ENIAC was an acronym for "Electronic Numerical Integrator And Calculator"... not "and computer" as shown on Wiki. Perhaps an oversight? Perhaps I'm incorrect? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/141.153.57.114" title="Special:Contributions/141.153.57.114">141.153.57.114</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:141.153.57.114&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:141.153.57.114 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-141.153.57.114-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z-...and_Calculator,_or_..._and_Computer" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:27, 5 August 2010 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-141.153.57.114-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z-...and_Calculator,_or_..._and_Computer"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-141.153.57.114-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z-...and_Calculator,_or_..._and_Computer"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wa3frp-2010-08-05T19:54:00.000Z-141.153.57.114-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z"></span>This link is from the University of Pennsylvania Archives: <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.archives.upenn.edu/faids/upd/eniactrial/upd8_10.html">http://www.archives.upenn.edu/faids/upd/eniactrial/upd8_10.html</a><a href="/wiki/User:Wa3frp" title="User:Wa3frp">Wa3frp</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wa3frp" title="User talk:Wa3frp">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Wa3frp-2010-08-05T19:54:00.000Z-141.153.57.114-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:54, 5 August 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wa3frp-2010-08-05T19:54:00.000Z-141.153.57.114-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wa3frp-2010-08-05T19:54:00.000Z-141.153.57.114-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dominus-2010-08-05T22:58:00.000Z-141.153.57.114-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z"></span>Also <a href="#Electronic_Numerical_Integrator_and_Calculator.3F">see the discussion of this above</a>. —<a href="/wiki/User:Dominus" title="User:Dominus">Mark Dominus</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dominus" title="User talk:Dominus">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Dominus-2010-08-05T22:58:00.000Z-141.153.57.114-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:58, 5 August 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dominus-2010-08-05T22:58:00.000Z-141.153.57.114-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dominus-2010-08-05T22:58:00.000Z-141.153.57.114-2010-08-05T19:27:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GroveGuy-2010-09-13T20:47:00.000Z-Dominus-2010-08-05T22:58:00.000Z"></span>Today's reverted edit is about the twentieth time someone wants to substitute "calculator" for "computer". I wonder why this tendency is so strong? <a href="/wiki/User:GroveGuy" title="User:GroveGuy">GroveGuy</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GroveGuy" title="User talk:GroveGuy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-GroveGuy-2010-09-13T20:47:00.000Z-Dominus-2010-08-05T22:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GroveGuy-2010-09-13T20:47:00.000Z-Dominus-2010-08-05T22:58:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GroveGuy-2010-09-13T20:47:00.000Z-Dominus-2010-08-05T22:58:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-67.188.20.134-2018-11-03T01:13:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2010-09-13T20:47:00.000Z"></span>Feel-good revisionism? <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/67.188.20.134" title="Special:Contributions/67.188.20.134">67.188.20.134</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:67.188.20.134&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:67.188.20.134 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-67.188.20.134-2018-11-03T01:13:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2010-09-13T20:47:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:13, 3 November 2018 (UTC)</a><span data-mw-comment-end="c-67.188.20.134-2018-11-03T01:13:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2010-09-13T20:47:00.000Z"></span></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-67.188.20.134-2018-11-03T01:13:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2010-09-13T20:47:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Tube_failures_again" data-mw-thread-id="h-Tube_failures_again-2010-11-19T08:42:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Tube_failures_again-2010-11-19T08:42:00.000Z"></span>Tube failures again<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Tube_failures_again-2010-11-19T08:42:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=36" title="Edit section: Tube failures again"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-East_of_Borschov-2010-11-19T08:42:00.000Z-Tube_failures_again"></span>"Most of these failures, however, occurred during the <b>warm-up</b> and cool-down periods, when the tube heaters and cathodes were under the most thermal stress" </p><p>Warmup failures are usually addressed with slow-start circuitry. Today, silicon regulators and timing relays for tube gear are cheap, and back in the fourties they could use <a href="/wiki/Variac" class="mw-redirect" title="Variac">variacs</a> for slow-starting. Fairly big variacs indeed but was still practical. </p><p>I'm sure that they <i>had</i> to consider variacs - but what happened then? Did they actually try it, and if yes - did it improve anything? </p><p>Cheers, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:East_of_Borschov" title="User talk:East of Borschov">East of Borschov</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-East_of_Borschov-2010-11-19T08:42:00.000Z-Tube_failures_again" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:42, 19 November 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-East_of_Borschov-2010-11-19T08:42:00.000Z-Tube_failures_again"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-East_of_Borschov-2010-11-19T08:42:00.000Z-Tube_failures_again"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2010-11-19T22:53:00.000Z-East_of_Borschov-2010-11-19T08:42:00.000Z"></span>(1) I've never heard of them doing this, but I can't answer definitely. (2) How do/did Variacs work? "Tube gear" today tends to mean amplification, wherein the amplifiers have one or a few tubes. Here we are talking about counting and switching circuits with many tubes. Would implementation of Variacs still be practical? Are Variacs devices that are likewise susceptible to breakage and would thus introduce just yet another point of failure? <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2010-11-19T22:53:00.000Z-East_of_Borschov-2010-11-19T08:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2010-11-19T22:53:00.000Z-East_of_Borschov-2010-11-19T08:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2010-11-19T22:53:00.000Z-East_of_Borschov-2010-11-19T08:42:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wtshymanski-2010-11-20T01:29:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2010-11-19T22:53:00.000Z"></span>If you haven't already, try searching for <a href="/wiki/Variac" class="mw-redirect" title="Variac">Variac</a>. We're speculating here, we'd need a reference that variable autotransformers were used, or not used, with early computers. I've seen a variac as big as 30 kva, which would run a large number of 6SN7 heaters. --<a href="/wiki/User:Wtshymanski" title="User:Wtshymanski">Wtshymanski</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wtshymanski" title="User talk:Wtshymanski">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Wtshymanski-2010-11-20T01:29:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2010-11-19T22:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:29, 20 November 2010 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wtshymanski-2010-11-20T01:29:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2010-11-19T22:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wtshymanski-2010-11-20T01:29:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2010-11-19T22:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Mention_of_hydrogen_bomb_belongs_in_lead?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Mention_of_hydrogen_bomb_belongs_in_lead?-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z"><span id="Mention_of_hydrogen_bomb_belongs_in_lead.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Mention_of_hydrogen_bomb_belongs_in_lead?-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z"></span>Mention of hydrogen bomb belongs in lead?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Mention_of_hydrogen_bomb_belongs_in_lead?-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=37" title="Edit section: Mention of hydrogen bomb belongs in lead?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z-Mention_of_hydrogen_bomb_belongs_in_lead?"></span>Re: <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ENIAC&diff=prev&oldid=411176876">this edit</a>, GroveGuy believes it is important to include in the lead that ENIAC's first problem was for the <a href="/wiki/Hydrogen_bomb" class="mw-redirect" title="Hydrogen bomb">hydrogen bomb</a>. I see this as more of a parenthetical that would be more appropriate to mention and fully discuss later in the article. Any other thoughts on this? <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:LEAD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:LEAD">WP:LEAD</a>, and especially the section on "Relative emphasis", is relevant here. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z-Mention_of_hydrogen_bomb_belongs_in_lead?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:59, 4 February 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z-Mention_of_hydrogen_bomb_belongs_in_lead?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z-Mention_of_hydrogen_bomb_belongs_in_lead?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Quota-2011-02-04T13:52:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z"></span>If true, then it would seem absolutely correct to mention that in the intro; the current intro gives a very different impression which is seriously misleading if in fact ENIAC was first used for something quite different than is stated now. <a href="/wiki/User:Quota" title="User:Quota">quota</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Quota" title="User talk:Quota">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Quota-2011-02-04T13:52:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:52, 4 February 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Quota-2011-02-04T13:52:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Quota-2011-02-04T13:52:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T22:02:00.000Z-Quota-2011-02-04T13:52:00.000Z"></span>But be careful! "First used" is ambiguous phraseology. It could mean "initial purpose", but here, it does not. That a hydrogen bomb-related problem happened to be the first task to which the ENIAC was put to work was an accidental or coincidental sort of thing. It wasn't "essential" to the ENIAC in that it doesn't explain any of the major who-what-when-where-why-how questions that a well-written lead is supposed to address. In that sense, it's sort of interesting trivia, a fun aside, but not proper material for the lead. Yes, it's fascinating information in an "oh-by-the-way" sense. Good to have in the article? Surely. But the lead? Does it address one of those major questions? Given that it was a one-time thing, and the ENIAC wasn't built specifically for it, why is it appropriate content for the lead? In my opinion, if included there, it is more misleading than helpful. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T22:02:00.000Z-Quota-2011-02-04T13:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:02, 4 February 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T22:02:00.000Z-Quota-2011-02-04T13:52:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T22:02:00.000Z-Quota-2011-02-04T13:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GroveGuy-2011-02-08T22:48:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z"></span>I believe that the change in sponsorship of ENIAC belongs in the lead paragraph. Today ENIAC is on the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/02/08/women.rosies.math/index.html?hpt=C2">front page of CNN</a> and they again promulgate the myth of the artillery firing tables.One year into the ENIAC project it came to the attention of the atomic bomb people. From that point forward the lion's share of the computations done on the project were atomic bomb calculations. Other calculation got the leftover time on weekends and holidays. It went from a $61,000 to a $486,000 project over three years. Notice that the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ushistory.org/more/eniac/public.htm">patent dispute</a> says "The Los Alamos calculations which commenced December 10, 1945, were the first problem placed on the ENIAC machine. When the first problem was put on the machine, it was the first time that the machine as a whole was being used.". The atomic bomb was the largest and the most secret project of World War II. Let's do the right thing here and restore ENIAC's association with the bomb. <a href="/wiki/User:GroveGuy" title="User:GroveGuy">GroveGuy</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GroveGuy" title="User talk:GroveGuy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-GroveGuy-2011-02-08T22:48:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:48, 8 February 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GroveGuy-2011-02-08T22:48:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GroveGuy-2011-02-08T22:48:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wtshymanski-2011-02-08T22:58:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2011-02-08T22:48:00.000Z"></span>We're debating *which* way the ENIAC was devoted to killing people? Does it really matter? Weaons all have the same ultimate purpose. Artillery tables must have paled in importance after the bomb came out. --<a href="/wiki/User:Wtshymanski" title="User:Wtshymanski">Wtshymanski</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wtshymanski" title="User talk:Wtshymanski">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Wtshymanski-2011-02-08T22:58:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2011-02-08T22:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:58, 8 February 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wtshymanski-2011-02-08T22:58:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2011-02-08T22:48:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wtshymanski-2011-02-08T22:58:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2011-02-08T22:48:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-09T01:28:00.000Z-Wtshymanski-2011-02-08T22:58:00.000Z"></span>GroveGuy, sorry, but your response is only misinformation or confusion. There was never a "change in sponsorship" of the ENIAC. From beginning to end the project was financed by the Ballistics Research Laboratory based in Aberdeen, Maryland. It is not true that "the lion's share of the computations done on the project were atomic bomb calculations". I can't tell whether your response really confuses the atomic bomb and the hydrogen bomb or whether you're only mixing up terminology. In any case, the first problem to be run on the ENIAC which took advantage of the entire machine was a problem run by Stanley Frankel and Nicholas Metropolis for the hydrogen bomb. The gradual increase in the project's budget that you make reference to was by request of the Army as additional accumulator units and features were requested so that the machine would be capable of handling broader classes of problems, not specifically hydrodynamics problems or problems of interest to nuclear weapons scientists. Your statement "Other calculation got the leftover time on weekends and holidays" seems to be conflating into your own new theory other elements of the story: John Mauchly on a few occasions made use of the machine on weekends and holidays to run hobby problems of academic interest, such as <a href="/wiki/Derrick_Henry_Lehmer" class="mw-redirect" title="Derrick Henry Lehmer">Dick Lehmer</a>'s number sieves. The fact that "the atomic bomb was the largest and most secret project of World War II" is of no moment whatsoever since both atom bombs were dropped in August 1945 without the aid of ENIAC, which wasn't finished until months afterward in November. Also, I don't think there's any evidence that the hydrogen bomb people ever ran a problem on the ENIAC again after that first run; perhaps they did, but we're not here to speculate—we are bound with what is verifiable in the record. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-09T01:28:00.000Z-Wtshymanski-2011-02-08T22:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:28, 9 February 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-09T01:28:00.000Z-Wtshymanski-2011-02-08T22:58:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-09T01:28:00.000Z-Wtshymanski-2011-02-08T22:58:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GroveGuy-2011-02-09T07:21:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z"></span>Robert - You are quite right. I read Goldstine's book and was struck by the fact that while the Ballistics Research Laboratory initiated this project Goldstine says on page 214 the problem being computed was hydrodynamics. Goldstine says on page 226 "that first run" was a million punch cards. That's a thousand boxes of cards. It boggles the mind. And to have a project's budget doubled and doubled and doubled again seems pretty extraordinary. So, reading between the lines, so to speak, it seemed to me the h-bomb people had taken over the project. I don't have a source to quote that exactly says this, but it seems to me that that's what happended. And if we're looking for consensus, note that both quota and Wtshymanski support me. <a href="/wiki/User:GroveGuy" title="User:GroveGuy">GroveGuy</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GroveGuy" title="User talk:GroveGuy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-GroveGuy-2011-02-09T07:21:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GroveGuy-2011-02-09T07:21:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GroveGuy-2011-02-09T07:21:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2011-02-04T12:59:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Wtshymanski-2011-02-09T14:41:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2011-02-09T07:21:00.000Z"></span>Goldstine's book doesn't literally say what the calculations were for; he points out that he and other ENIAC personnel weren't cleared for weapons research and so no-one told them exactly what the calculations were used for, but Los Alamos wasn't working on improving watch dials. --<a href="/wiki/User:Wtshymanski" title="User:Wtshymanski">Wtshymanski</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Wtshymanski" title="User talk:Wtshymanski">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Wtshymanski-2011-02-09T14:41:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2011-02-09T07:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:41, 9 February 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Wtshymanski-2011-02-09T14:41:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2011-02-09T07:21:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Wtshymanski-2011-02-09T14:41:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2011-02-09T07:21:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-10T00:44:00.000Z-Wtshymanski-2011-02-09T14:41:00.000Z"></span>While we don't know exactly what the mathematical-physical nature of the Los Alamos problem, it is not true that we don't know its general nature as a simulation of a theory for the hydrogen bomb--Teller's theory, in fact. <a href="/wiki/Edward_Teller" title="Edward Teller">Edward Teller</a> testified about the problem in <i><a href="/wiki/Honeywell_v._Sperry_Rand" class="mw-redirect" title="Honeywell v. Sperry Rand">Honeywell v. Sperry Rand</a></i>, years before Goldstine wrote his book. See, e.g., McCartney page 104. As for GroveGuy's "reading between the lines", it is not accurate. It is true that Los Alamos heard about the ENIAC's successful completion and was eager to run a problem on it, and was granted priority to get the first major problem as soon as the machine was finished being tested out. It is not true that this problem was responsible for the expansion of the ENIAC contract and the increase in its budget. Actually, the budget increase and expansion of the project to enhance the computer's capabilities was anticipated from the very beginning of the contract by Colonel Gillon, among others, as Goldstine, Mauchly, Eckert and others related on numerous occasions. Cheers, <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-10T00:44:00.000Z-Wtshymanski-2011-02-09T14:41:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:44, 10 February 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-10T00:44:00.000Z-Wtshymanski-2011-02-09T14:41:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2011-02-10T00:44:00.000Z-Wtshymanski-2011-02-09T14:41:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Inexact_information?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Inexact_information?-2011-12-14T20:48:00.000Z"><span id="Inexact_information.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Inexact_information?-2011-12-14T20:48:00.000Z"></span>Inexact information?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Inexact_information?-2011-12-14T20:48:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=38" title="Edit section: Inexact information?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Laplandian-2011-12-14T20:48:00.000Z-Inexact_information?"></span>The comparative table of the first computers contains some information that may be inexact. </p><p>1. ENIAC became operational in November 1945, when it ran a series of calculations for the hydrogen bomb. ENIAC was secretly operating a few months before it was introduced to the public in July 1946. </p><p>2. According to the book "Origins of Cyberspace: A Library on the History of Computing, Networking and Telecommunications" by Diana H. Hook and Jeremy M. Norman, Zuse Z4 did not have conditional branching in its original 1945 version. Z4 became Turing-complete only in its final version, which became operational in 1949-1950. Well, one may argue that the same odd hack that is described in Raul Rojas's paper on Z3's purely theoretical "Turing-completeness" could work also with Z4, but that's not the way how Konrad Zuse himself had implemented the branching later. </p><p>3. I am not sure that "Modified ENIAC" deserves a separate entry in the table. All those computers, including ENIAC, were modified significantly a number of times through their history, but there was no such machine called "Modified ENIAC". These modifications were just a part of ENIAC's development, followed by a series of other modifications. </p><p>I am not going to change any of these details, but I think someone who is an expert in computer history should check it out. <a href="/wiki/User:Laplandian" title="User:Laplandian">Laplandian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Laplandian" title="User talk:Laplandian">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Laplandian-2011-12-14T20:48:00.000Z-Inexact_information?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:48, 14 December 2011 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Laplandian-2011-12-14T20:48:00.000Z-Inexact_information?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Laplandian-2011-12-14T20:48:00.000Z-Inexact_information?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TedColes-2012-02-14T12:07:00.000Z-Laplandian-2011-12-14T20:48:00.000Z"></span>I agree that it would be appropriate for someone who is an expert on the history of computing to improve the table. It is, however, a free-standing entity within Wikipedia, a 'Template' under the titile of "Early computer characteristics" that is 'transcluded' into this article and a number of others. I am therefore going to copy this section into the talk page for it which is at <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Early_computer_characteristics">Template talk:Early computer characteristics</a>. --<a href="/wiki/User:TedColes" title="User:TedColes">TedColes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TedColes" title="User talk:TedColes">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-TedColes-2012-02-14T12:07:00.000Z-Laplandian-2011-12-14T20:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:07, 14 February 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TedColes-2012-02-14T12:07:00.000Z-Laplandian-2011-12-14T20:48:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TedColes-2012-02-14T12:07:00.000Z-Laplandian-2011-12-14T20:48:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TedColes-2012-04-06T09:20:00.000Z-TedColes-2012-02-14T12:07:00.000Z"></span>What is the source for (1) above? As regards (2)I am concerned that Turing compatability is given undue prominence in the table. Perhaps it would be better replaced with the number of machines constructed, but that would, I think, be one for all except Colossus Mark 2. Alternatively 'Memory size' might be useful, if an agreed definition of memory in these machines could be agreed. Re. (3), I agree that the 'Modified ENIAC' row of the table could well be deleted similarly the Mark 1 and Mark 2 Colossus could be merged into a single row. --<a href="/wiki/User:TedColes" title="User:TedColes">TedColes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TedColes" title="User talk:TedColes">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-TedColes-2012-04-06T09:20:00.000Z-TedColes-2012-02-14T12:07:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:20, 6 April 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TedColes-2012-04-06T09:20:00.000Z-TedColes-2012-02-14T12:07:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TedColes-2012-04-06T09:20:00.000Z-TedColes-2012-02-14T12:07:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2012-11-30T16:51:00.000Z-TedColes-2012-04-06T09:20:00.000Z"></span>No comment on (1) or (2) (no quibbles from me) but as to (3): while it may be true that a number of computing machines were modified throughout their lifetime, the ENIAC modification was a striking one that significantly changed the way the machine was used forever. In one sense, it hobbled the machine by preventing the full range of use for which it was designed. On the other hand, it permitted for faster set-up times. The machine no longer required more than a day's worth of re-cabling setup for a new problem. Essentially the only thing that needed to be changed was to enter the "program" by means of setting the dials on the function tables. This modification fundamentally changed the way the machine was used, and the machine was never used the old way again. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2012-11-30T16:51:00.000Z-TedColes-2012-04-06T09:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:51, 30 November 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2012-11-30T16:51:00.000Z-TedColes-2012-04-06T09:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2012-11-30T16:51:00.000Z-TedColes-2012-04-06T09:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Lack_of_Information" data-mw-thread-id="h-Lack_of_Information-2012-02-14T08:19:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Lack_of_Information-2012-02-14T08:19:00.000Z"></span>Lack of Information<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Lack_of_Information-2012-02-14T08:19:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=39" title="Edit section: Lack of Information"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gune-2012-02-14T08:19:00.000Z-Lack_of_Information"></span>The history section is incomplete. There's no mention at all about when it stopped being used or what happened to it exactly. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Gune&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Gune (page does not exist)">Gune</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Gune" title="User talk:Gune">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Gune-2012-02-14T08:19:00.000Z-Lack_of_Information" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:19, 14 February 2012 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gune-2012-02-14T08:19:00.000Z-Lack_of_Information"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gune-2012-02-14T08:19:00.000Z-Lack_of_Information"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Error_in_caption?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Error_in_caption?-2012-07-29T06:52:00.000Z"><span id="Error_in_caption.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Error_in_caption?-2012-07-29T06:52:00.000Z"></span>Error in caption?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Error_in_caption?-2012-07-29T06:52:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=40" title="Edit section: Error in caption?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-75.81.31.29-2012-07-29T06:52:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?"></span>It seems that the close-up photos of the "tubes" is not actually of vacuum tubes at all . . . But rather they are metal-can electrolytic capacitors. The mounting clamp is clearly a common VR style that's been traditionally used for this purpose, and the gooey paper stuff between them and the capacitor is most likely an insulation material to keep the negative side of the capacitors insulated from the chassis (i.e. for a negative supply rail). <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/75.81.31.29" title="Special:Contributions/75.81.31.29">75.81.31.29</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:75.81.31.29&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:75.81.31.29 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-75.81.31.29-2012-07-29T06:52:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:52, 29 July 2012 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-75.81.31.29-2012-07-29T06:52:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-75.81.31.29-2012-07-29T06:52:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rainglasz-2015-01-30T19:59:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?"></span>I'm really puzzled by this comment; it must refer to a photo that has been replaced by the current one, which shows the orange glow from the heaters and cathodes of the tubes. I'm 76, and when I was young, octal-based tubes (such as 6L6s in some of today's guitar amplifiers) were the most common. The non-circular details in the orange glows are created by the mica supports inside the tubes.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>It's likely that not all tubes look alike, because several types were used, and perhaps because those of a given type were made by several companies.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>My first impression when I saw the photo was that the tubes are so closely spaced that cooling must have been of real concern. Then, I thought of total heater power...</dd></dl> <p>Regards, Nikevich 09:31, 6 December 2012 (UTC) </p><p>These are definitely not tubes, but electrolytic capacitors. The orignal rack is in the HNF Computermuseum in Paderborn, which I have just today checked there. The original picture was 90° rotated, as in reality. Thus, I will remove picture, at least here. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Rainglasz" title="User:Rainglasz">Rainglasz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rainglasz" title="User talk:Rainglasz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Rainglasz-2015-01-30T19:59:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:59, 30 January 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rainglasz-2015-01-30T19:59:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rainglasz-2015-01-30T19:59:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rainglasz-2015-01-31T19:18:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?"></span>Have reverted the removal, as it is used in many other articles, and will next week coordinate with the museum that has the original, and eventually file a renaming request in WikiMedia. <a href="/wiki/User:Rainglasz" title="User:Rainglasz">Rainglasz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rainglasz" title="User talk:Rainglasz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Rainglasz-2015-01-31T19:18:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:18, 31 January 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rainglasz-2015-01-31T19:18:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rainglasz-2015-01-31T19:18:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rainglasz-2015-02-03T16:49:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?"></span>Verified with Museum (where the orignals are on exhibition) that these are not tubes. Picture finally removed. <a href="/wiki/User:Rainglasz" title="User:Rainglasz">Rainglasz</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rainglasz" title="User talk:Rainglasz">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Rainglasz-2015-02-03T16:49:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:49, 3 February 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rainglasz-2015-02-03T16:49:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rainglasz-2015-02-03T16:49:00.000Z-Error_in_caption?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Programming_(first_2_paragraphs)" data-mw-thread-id="h-Programming_(first_2_paragraphs)-2014-02-01T03:48:00.000Z"><span id="Programming_.28first_2_paragraphs.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Programming_(first_2_paragraphs)-2014-02-01T03:48:00.000Z"></span>Programming (first 2 paragraphs)<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Programming_(first_2_paragraphs)-2014-02-01T03:48:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=41" title="Edit section: Programming (first 2 paragraphs)"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-C0h3n-2014-02-01T13:31:00.000Z-Programming_(first_2_paragraphs)"></span>Hello GroveGuy, If you feel that my edits are changing the meaning of a sentence or are not constructive, please explain why. I've carefully made these edits to make the meaning of the paragraphs more clear by improving the flow of the sentences. I'm guessing you wrote these paragraphs and that's why you have such an interest in maintaining them, but this is a public encyclopedia, not a personal project, so all work is subject to revision and change. If anyone else has opinions, here is the <span class="plainlinks"><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ENIAC&diff=593341368&oldid=593291329">diff</a></span>, and please do share. <a href="/wiki/User:C0h3n" title="User:C0h3n">C0h3n</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:C0h3n" title="User talk:C0h3n">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-C0h3n-2014-02-01T13:31:00.000Z-Programming_(first_2_paragraphs)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:31, 1 February 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-C0h3n-2014-02-01T13:31:00.000Z-Programming_(first_2_paragraphs)"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-C0h3n-2014-02-01T13:31:00.000Z-Programming_(first_2_paragraphs)"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GroveGuy-2014-02-01T03:48:00.000Z-C0h3n-2014-02-01T13:31:00.000Z"></span>C0h3n - the common belief is that they were running programs on ENIAC for artillery tables. I believe Goldstein says that the project got taken over early on by the Atomic Bomb people. Your change takes away from the conflict of the table people vs the bomb people. In the second change single stepping the machine is not the same as executing the program step by step. It is a level lower. I, too, invite others to give their opinions. Don't forget to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">sign your comments</a> on talk pages. <a href="/wiki/User:GroveGuy" title="User:GroveGuy">GroveGuy</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:GroveGuy" title="User talk:GroveGuy">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-GroveGuy-2014-02-01T03:48:00.000Z-C0h3n-2014-02-01T13:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:48, 1 February 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GroveGuy-2014-02-01T03:48:00.000Z-C0h3n-2014-02-01T13:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GroveGuy-2014-02-01T03:48:00.000Z-C0h3n-2014-02-01T13:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-C0h3n-2014-02-01T13:31:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2014-02-01T03:48:00.000Z"></span>I'm not sure what single stepping the machine is in that case, but perhaps a brief explanation would be in order. I'll add the artillery tables part back in. <a href="/wiki/User:C0h3n" title="User:C0h3n">C0h3n</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:C0h3n" title="User talk:C0h3n">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-C0h3n-2014-02-01T13:31:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2014-02-01T03:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:31, 1 February 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-C0h3n-2014-02-01T13:31:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2014-02-01T03:48:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-C0h3n-2014-02-01T13:31:00.000Z-GroveGuy-2014-02-01T03:48:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Glen_Beck_in_picture" data-mw-thread-id="h-Glen_Beck_in_picture-2014-01-24T18:45:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Glen_Beck_in_picture-2014-01-24T18:45:00.000Z"></span>Glen Beck in picture<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Glen_Beck_in_picture-2014-01-24T18:45:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=42" title="Edit section: Glen Beck in picture"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MadScientistX11-2014-01-24T18:45:00.000Z-Glen_Beck_in_picture"></span>On the first image, the caption reads "Glen Beck (background) and Betty Snyder (foreground) program ENIAC in BRL building 328. (U.S. Army photo)" Who is this Glen Beck? (not to be confused with <a href="/wiki/Glenn_Beck" title="Glenn Beck">Glenn Beck</a> the US conservative commentator) There is no re-direct page at Glenn Beck's page towards Glen Beck; let alone a page, even a stub in Wikipedia that depicts his life. Even a quick Google search is befuddled with results from the contemporary Beck. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:76.252.179.230&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:76.252.179.230 (page does not exist)">76.252.179.230</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:76.252.179.230&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:76.252.179.230 (page does not exist)">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/76.252.179.230" title="Special:Contributions/76.252.179.230">contribs</a>) 2013-01-26T15:17:29‎</span></small> </p> <dl><dd>I just noticed this as well. I'm pretty computer literate, although don't know that much about the very earliest days and I've never heard of a computer scientist named Glen Beck. My guess is someone vandalized the page. I'm going to be <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Bold" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Bold">wp:bold</a> and change it and just leave Betty's name. --<a href="/wiki/User:MadScientistX11" title="User:MadScientistX11">MadScientistX11</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MadScientistX11" title="User talk:MadScientistX11">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-MadScientistX11-2014-01-24T18:45:00.000Z-Glen_Beck_in_picture" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:45, 24 January 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MadScientistX11-2014-01-24T18:45:00.000Z-Glen_Beck_in_picture"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MadScientistX11-2014-01-24T18:45:00.000Z-Glen_Beck_in_picture"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2014-02-06T13:39:00.000Z-MadScientistX11-2014-01-24T18:45:00.000Z"></span>The name is accurate and genuine. <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="http://ftp.arl.army.mil/ftp/historic-computers/">[3]</a> We might also surmise that Beck's wife's name was Milly. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2014-02-06T13:39:00.000Z-MadScientistX11-2014-01-24T18:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:39, 6 February 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2014-02-06T13:39:00.000Z-MadScientistX11-2014-01-24T18:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2014-02-06T13:39:00.000Z-MadScientistX11-2014-01-24T18:45:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T16:31:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2014-02-06T13:39:00.000Z"></span>A <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD0648479.pdf">recently uncovered primary source</a> shows that this person's name is, contrary to the caption on Mike Muuss's photo page, actually spelled with two "N"s. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T16:31:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2014-02-06T13:39:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:31, 16 November 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T16:31:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2014-02-06T13:39:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T16:31:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2014-02-06T13:39:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/218056313/glenn-arthur-beck"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T18:37:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T16:31:00.000Z"></span>Here</a> is a find-a-grave for the same Glenn A. Beck (1930-2001). <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T18:37:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T16:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:37, 16 November 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T18:37:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T16:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T18:37:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2021-11-16T16:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Not_A_Computer" data-mw-thread-id="h-Not_A_Computer-2014-08-31T09:36:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Not_A_Computer-2014-08-31T09:36:00.000Z"></span>Not A Computer<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Not_A_Computer-2014-08-31T09:36:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=43" title="Edit section: Not A Computer"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:36:00.000Z-Not_A_Computer"></span>ENIAC was an electronic calculating machine, in no way was it a 'computer', the first actual computers were designed by Kilburn, Blackett and Newman at Manchester, on the Manchester SSEM. Why MUST American's try and grab every first irrespective of the facts??? <a href="/wiki/User:Twobells" title="User:Twobells">Twobells</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Twobells" title="User talk:Twobells">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:36:00.000Z-Not_A_Computer" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:36, 31 August 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:36:00.000Z-Not_A_Computer"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:36:00.000Z-Not_A_Computer"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Twobells-2014-09-01T09:53:00.000Z-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:36:00.000Z"></span>Someone keeps reverting 'electronic calculating machine' to 'computer', ENIAC was NOT a computer in any sense of the word.<a href="/wiki/User:Twobells" title="User:Twobells">Twobells</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Twobells" title="User talk:Twobells">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Twobells-2014-09-01T09:53:00.000Z-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:36:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)</a><sup class="noprint Inline-Template Template-Fact" style="white-space:nowrap;">[<i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed" title="Wikipedia:Citation needed"><span title="This claim needs references to reliable sources.">citation needed</span></a></i>]</sup><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Twobells-2014-09-01T09:53:00.000Z-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:36:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Twobells-2014-09-01T09:53:00.000Z-Twobells-2014-08-31T09:36:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2015-03-23T20:11:00.000Z-Twobells-2014-09-01T09:53:00.000Z"></span>That opinion is not the historical consensus, and it does not have any consensus here on Wikipedia. Even in its first iteration, ENIAC was programmable to run a full range of computing problems, and could run them at electronic speeds. ENIAC is referred to widely in the literature as a computer, and even has the word "computer" in the expansion of its acronymic name. From its very inception, it was referred to as a computer. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2015-03-23T20:11:00.000Z-Twobells-2014-09-01T09:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:11, 23 March 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2015-03-23T20:11:00.000Z-Twobells-2014-09-01T09:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2015-03-23T20:11:00.000Z-Twobells-2014-09-01T09:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Suggested_addition_to_"Parts_on_Display"" data-mw-thread-id="h-Suggested_addition_to_"Parts_on_Display"-2015-11-06T23:34:00.000Z"><span id="Suggested_addition_to_.22Parts_on_Display.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Suggested_addition_to_"Parts_on_Display"-2015-11-06T23:34:00.000Z"></span>Suggested addition to "Parts on Display"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Suggested_addition_to_"Parts_on_Display"-2015-11-06T23:34:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=44" title="Edit section: Suggested addition to "Parts on Display""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Laanderman-2015-11-06T23:34:00.000Z-Suggested_addition_to_"Parts_on_Display""></span>Hi. I work for the Bradbury Science Museum that is part of Los Alamos National Laboratory here in (surprise) Los Alamos, NM. </p><p>The person who is working with our artifacts pointed out that we have a contribution to the "Parts on Display" section. </p><p>Here is the language she thought should be included: </p><p>“The Bradbury Science Museum in Los Alamos, New Mexico has a data register unit with vacuum tubes.” </p><p>Link=<a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.lanl.gov/museum/index.php">http://www.lanl.gov/museum/index.php</a> </p><p>I'm including a couple of photos that show it is part of our computing display. </p><p>I did not want to edit the page directly and have trouble with COI. </p><p>I can be contacted at anderman@lanl.gov 505-665-9196 if there are any questions. </p><p><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Laanderman&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Laanderman (page does not exist)">Laanderman</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Laanderman&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:Laanderman (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Laanderman-2015-11-06T23:34:00.000Z-Suggested_addition_to_"Parts_on_Display"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:34, 6 November 2015 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Laanderman-2015-11-06T23:34:00.000Z-Suggested_addition_to_"Parts_on_Display""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Laanderman-2015-11-06T23:34:00.000Z-Suggested_addition_to_"Parts_on_Display""></span> </p> <figure class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File/Thumb"><a href="/wiki/File:ENIAC.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/ENIAC.jpg/220px-ENIAC.jpg" decoding="async" width="220" height="147" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/ENIAC.jpg/330px-ENIAC.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/ENIAC.jpg/440px-ENIAC.jpg 2x" data-file-width="3888" data-file-height="2592"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure> <figure class="mw-default-size" typeof="mw:File/Thumb"><a href="/wiki/File:Eniac-on-exhibit_.jpg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Eniac-on-exhibit_.jpg/220px-Eniac-on-exhibit_.jpg" decoding="async" width="220" height="147" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Eniac-on-exhibit_.jpg/330px-Eniac-on-exhibit_.jpg 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Eniac-on-exhibit_.jpg/440px-Eniac-on-exhibit_.jpg 2x" data-file-width="3888" data-file-height="2592"/></a><figcaption>At the Bradbury Science </figcaption></figure> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""Artificially_darkened"_photo?" data-mw-thread-id="h-"Artificially_darkened"_photo?"><span id=".22Artificially_darkened.22_photo.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"Artificially_darkened"_photo?"></span>"Artificially darkened" photo?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"Artificially_darkened"_photo?"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=45" title="Edit section: "Artificially darkened" photo?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>One of the photos has this caption: "This photo has been artificially darkened, obscuring details such as the women who were present and the IBM equipment in use." Why is Wikipedia using this darkened photo, especially considering the source link has a non-darkened photo? Who darkened it and why? There are people on offsite links using this as proof of some sort of gigantic government conspiracy to conceal the fact that women worked with the ENIAC. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="External_links_modified" data-mw-thread-id="h-External_links_modified-2017-09-15T17:19:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-External_links_modified-2017-09-15T17:19:00.000Z"></span>External links modified<span data-mw-comment-end="h-External_links_modified-2017-09-15T17:19:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=46" title="Edit section: External links modified"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-InternetArchiveBot-2017-09-15T17:19:00.000Z-External_links_modified"></span>Hello fellow Wikipedians, </p><p>I have just modified 8 external links on <a href="/wiki/ENIAC" title="ENIAC">ENIAC</a>. Please take a moment to review <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=800785823">my edit</a>. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit <a href="/wiki/User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot" title="User:Cyberpower678/FaQs">this simple FaQ</a> for additional information. I made the following changes: </p> <ul><li>Added archive <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20110814181522/http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/eniac-story.html">https://web.archive.org/web/20110814181522/http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/eniac-story.html</a> to <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/eniac-story.html">http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/eniac-story.html</a></li> <li>Added archive <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20132218401700/http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/96summary/index.html">https://web.archive.org/web/20132218401700/http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/96summary/index.html</a> to <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/96summary/index.html">http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/96summary/index.html</a></li> <li>Added archive <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20160304052225/http://www.eg.bucknell.edu/~csci203/2012-fall/hw/hw06/assets/womenOfENIAC.pdf">https://web.archive.org/web/20160304052225/http://www.eg.bucknell.edu/~csci203/2012-fall/hw/hw06/assets/womenOfENIAC.pdf</a> to <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.eg.bucknell.edu/~csci203/2012-fall/hw/hw06/assets/womenOfENIAC.pdf">http://www.eg.bucknell.edu/~csci203/2012-fall/hw/hw06/assets/womenOfENIAC.pdf</a></li> <li>Added archive <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20100103050402/http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/48eniac-coding/">https://web.archive.org/web/20100103050402/http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/48eniac-coding/</a> to <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/48eniac-coding/">http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/48eniac-coding/</a></li> <li>Added archive <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20090123114642/http://www.eniacprogrammers.org/index.shtml">https://web.archive.org/web/20090123114642/http://www.eniacprogrammers.org/index.shtml</a> to <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://eniacprogrammers.org/index.shtml">http://eniacprogrammers.org/index.shtml</a></li> <li>Added archive <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20060909174756/http://ftp.arl.army.mil/~mike/comphist/48eniac-coding/">https://web.archive.org/web/20060909174756/http://ftp.arl.army.mil/~mike/comphist/48eniac-coding/</a>.. to <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://ftp.arl.army.mil/~mike/comphist/">http://ftp.arl.army.mil/~mike/comphist/</a></li> <li>Added archive <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20040803150905/http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/61ordnance/chap2.html">https://web.archive.org/web/20040803150905/http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/61ordnance/chap2.html</a> to <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/61ordnance/chap2.html">http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/61ordnance/chap2.html</a></li> <li>Added archive <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20110814181522/http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/eniac-story.html">https://web.archive.org/web/20110814181522/http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/eniac-story.html</a> to <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/eniac-story.html">http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/eniac-story.html</a></li></ul> <p>When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. </p><p>This message was posted before February 2018. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_145#Disable_messages_left_by_InternetArchiveBot" title="Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 145">After February 2018</a>, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by <b><span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span></b>. 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This message is updated dynamically through the template <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Source_check" title="Template:Source check">source check</a>}}</code> <small>(last update: 5 June 2024)</small>. </p> <ul><li>If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://iabot.wmcloud.org/index.php?page=reportfalsepositive">this tool</a>.</li> <li>If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://iabot.wmcloud.org/index.php?page=manageurlsingle">this tool</a>.</li></ul> <p>Cheers.—<a href="/wiki/User:InternetArchiveBot" title="User:InternetArchiveBot"><b><span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span></b></a> <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:InternetArchiveBot" title="User talk:InternetArchiveBot">Report bug</a>)</span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-InternetArchiveBot-2017-09-15T17:19:00.000Z-External_links_modified" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:19, 15 September 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-InternetArchiveBot-2017-09-15T17:19:00.000Z-External_links_modified"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-InternetArchiveBot-2017-09-15T17:19:00.000Z-External_links_modified"></span> </p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-1">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><a href="#CITEREFGoldstine">Goldstine</a>, p. 226<span class="error harv-error" style="display: none; font-size:100%"> harvnb error: no target: CITEREFGoldstine (<a href="/wiki/Category:Harv_and_Sfn_template_errors" title="Category:Harv and Sfn template errors">help</a>)</span></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-2"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-2">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/computer">http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/computer</a></span> </li> <li id="cite_note-3"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-3">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Teitelbaum">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Teitelbaum</a></span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""Betty_Holberton_(née_Snyder)_continued_on_to_invent_the_first_sorting_algorithm"" data-mw-thread-id="h-"Betty_Holberton_(née_Snyder)_continued_on_to_invent_the_first_sorting_algorith-2018-02-23T15:46:00.000Z"><span id=".22Betty_Holberton_.28n.C3.A9e_Snyder.29_continued_on_to_invent_the_first_sorting_algorithm.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"Betty_Holberton_(née_Snyder)_continued_on_to_invent_the_first_sorting_algorith-2018-02-23T15:46:00.000Z"></span>"Betty Holberton (née Snyder) continued on to invent the first sorting algorithm"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"Betty_Holberton_(née_Snyder)_continued_on_to_invent_the_first_sorting_algorith-2018-02-23T15:46:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=47" title="Edit section: "Betty Holberton (née Snyder) continued on to invent the first sorting algorithm""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SloppyG-2018-02-23T15:46:00.000Z-"Betty_Holberton_(née_Snyder)_continued_on_to_invent_the_first_sorting_algorith"></span>I'm not really well versed on the historical details surrounding algorithms, but this sentence immediately read as incorrect to me: "Betty Holberton (née Snyder) continued on to invent the first sorting algorithm". </p><p>Sorting algorithms date back to antiquity, so she certainly did not invent the first sorting algorithm. Additionally, the first non-trivial sorting algorithm described academically is Merge sort which is widely credited to <a href="/wiki/Jon_von_Neumann" class="mw-redirect" title="Jon von Neumann">Jon von Neumann</a>. Holberton undoubtedly played some significant role related to the history of merge sort, but I don't see any evidence crediting her as the inventor of any particular algorithm. </p><p><a href="/wiki/Betty_Holberton" title="Betty Holberton">Her own wiki article</a> currently mentions that "she was one of those who wrote the first generative programming system (<a href="/wiki/Merge_sort#Use_with_tape_drives" title="Merge sort">SORT/MERGE</a>)" which is verifiable, unlike the unqualified claim currently in the article. I will update this article to replace the unqualified claim with this qualified claim from her page. <a href="/wiki/User:SloppyG" title="User:SloppyG">SloppyG</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SloppyG" title="User talk:SloppyG">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-SloppyG-2018-02-23T15:46:00.000Z-"Betty_Holberton_(née_Snyder)_continued_on_to_invent_the_first_sorting_algorith" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:46, 23 February 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SloppyG-2018-02-23T15:46:00.000Z-"Betty_Holberton_(née_Snyder)_continued_on_to_invent_the_first_sorting_algorith"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SloppyG-2018-02-23T15:46:00.000Z-"Betty_Holberton_(née_Snyder)_continued_on_to_invent_the_first_sorting_algorith"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="First_put_to_work_in_1945_or_1946?" data-mw-thread-id="h-First_put_to_work_in_1945_or_1946?-2018-05-16T18:40:00.000Z"><span id="First_put_to_work_in_1945_or_1946.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-First_put_to_work_in_1945_or_1946?-2018-05-16T18:40:00.000Z"></span>First put to work in 1945 or 1946?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-First_put_to_work_in_1945_or_1946?-2018-05-16T18:40:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=48" title="Edit section: First put to work in 1945 or 1946?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-TedColes-2018-05-16T18:40:00.000Z-First_put_to_work_in_1945_or_1946?"></span>An anonymous editor has recently claimed that ENIAC was first put to use in 1945, with a reference that does not support that assertion. What is the correct date (preferably supported by a reliable reference)? --<a href="/wiki/User:TedColes" title="User:TedColes">TedColes</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:TedColes" title="User talk:TedColes">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-TedColes-2018-05-16T18:40:00.000Z-First_put_to_work_in_1945_or_1946?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:40, 16 May 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-TedColes-2018-05-16T18:40:00.000Z-First_put_to_work_in_1945_or_1946?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-TedColes-2018-05-16T18:40:00.000Z-First_put_to_work_in_1945_or_1946?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://www.ushistory.org/more/eniac/public.htm"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:21:00.000Z-TedColes-2018-05-16T18:40:00.000Z"></span>The source claims</a> that this is from a public trial; I haven't looked further into who claims the following in the trial:</dd> <dd>"<b>2.</b> The ENIAC machine was constructed by mid-November, 1945.</dd> <dd>1. The design for the ENIAC machine was frozen prior to the end of 1944 so that the construction of the machine could be completed as rapidly as possible to confirm the usefulness of electronic computation with such large machines.</dd> <dd>2. By mid-1945, the construction of the various ENIAC units, was complete and testing of the completed units was commenced.</dd> <dd>3. The ENIAC was <b>placed in operation as a system in mid-November, 1945</b>.</dd> <dd>4. Moore School and Army Ordnance representatives considered that the ENIAC machine <b>was being operated rather than tested after December 1, 1945</b>." --<a href="/wiki/User:Jhertel" title="User:Jhertel">Jhertel</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jhertel" title="User talk:Jhertel">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:21:00.000Z-TedColes-2018-05-16T18:40:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:21, 16 May 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:21:00.000Z-TedColes-2018-05-16T18:40:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:21:00.000Z-TedColes-2018-05-16T18:40:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:28:00.000Z-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:21:00.000Z"></span>Also, on the same page, which appears to be court findings:</dd> <dd>"<b>4.</b> The Los Alamos calculations which commenced December 10, 1945, were the first problem placed on the ENIAC machine. When the first problem was put on the machine, it was the first time that the machine as a whole was being used. It was fully expected that the problem would be solved. It was.</dd> <dd>1. <b>The ENIAC machine, </b>and hence any invention claimed in the ENIAC patent,<b> was reduced to practice no later than the date of commencement of the use of the machine for the Los Alamos calculations, December 10, 1945</b>." --<a href="/wiki/User:Jhertel" title="User:Jhertel">Jhertel</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Jhertel" title="User talk:Jhertel">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:28:00.000Z-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:28, 16 May 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:28:00.000Z-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:21:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:28:00.000Z-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:21:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-89.25.210.104-2018-05-17T22:33:00.000Z-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:28:00.000Z"></span>Related with: <a href="/wiki/Honeywell,_Inc._v._Sperry_Rand_Corp." title="Honeywell, Inc. v. Sperry Rand Corp.">Honeywell, Inc. v. Sperry Rand Corp.</a>--<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/89.25.210.104" title="Special:Contributions/89.25.210.104">89.25.210.104</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:89.25.210.104" title="User talk:89.25.210.104">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-89.25.210.104-2018-05-17T22:33:00.000Z-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:33, 17 May 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-89.25.210.104-2018-05-17T22:33:00.000Z-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:28:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-89.25.210.104-2018-05-17T22:33:00.000Z-Jhertel-2018-05-16T19:28:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Wrong_information_on_tube_count?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Wrong_information_on_tube_count?-2018-12-03T00:09:00.000Z"><span id="Wrong_information_on_tube_count.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Wrong_information_on_tube_count?-2018-12-03T00:09:00.000Z"></span>Wrong information on tube count?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Wrong_information_on_tube_count?-2018-12-03T00:09:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=49" title="Edit section: Wrong information on tube count?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-5rockhopper4-2018-12-03T00:09:00.000Z-Wrong_information_on_tube_count?"></span>Under "Contents", the article states that ENIAC contained 20,000 vacuum tubes, but both of the sources that are sited in-line both claim lesser counts, both stating 17,468 or 18,000. </p><p>Any thoughts? <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:5rockhopper4&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:5rockhopper4 (page does not exist)">5rockhopper4</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:5rockhopper4#top" title="User talk:5rockhopper4">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/5rockhopper4" title="Special:Contributions/5rockhopper4">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-5rockhopper4-2018-12-03T00:09:00.000Z-Wrong_information_on_tube_count?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:09, 3 December 2018 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-5rockhopper4-2018-12-03T00:09:00.000Z-Wrong_information_on_tube_count?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-5rockhopper4-2018-12-03T00:09:00.000Z-Wrong_information_on_tube_count?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dicklyon-2018-12-03T00:47:00.000Z-5rockhopper4-2018-12-03T00:09:00.000Z"></span>Sounds like people like to round up. Change it to "nearly 18000" or "over 17000" or something like that if you like. <a href="/wiki/User:Dicklyon" title="User:Dicklyon">Dicklyon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dicklyon" title="User talk:Dicklyon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Dicklyon-2018-12-03T00:47:00.000Z-5rockhopper4-2018-12-03T00:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:47, 3 December 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dicklyon-2018-12-03T00:47:00.000Z-5rockhopper4-2018-12-03T00:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dicklyon-2018-12-03T00:47:00.000Z-5rockhopper4-2018-12-03T00:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="There_was_no_crawling" data-mw-thread-id="h-There_was_no_crawling-2019-03-26T19:13:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-There_was_no_crawling-2019-03-26T19:13:00.000Z"></span>There was no crawling<span data-mw-comment-end="h-There_was_no_crawling-2019-03-26T19:13:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=50" title="Edit section: There was no crawling"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2019-03-26T19:13:00.000Z-There_was_no_crawling"></span>A statement in the article that the ENIAC programmers (or "operators", as they have sometimes been called) crawled around inside the machine to search for defective joints or tubes is not supported by the cited reference, nor does it appear to be factually accurate. Unfortunately, this statement has by now been picked up by a number of secondary sources (web articles and the like), apparently trusting the Wikipedia statement to be accurate. However, no primary source has been located that would support the supposition that the ENIAC programmers ever "crawled," inside the machine or otherwise. Those familiar with the architecture of the ENIAC would understand readily that it would be impossible to fit a human being inside any of the ENIAC's units. Potentially, it might be necessary to <i>crouch</i> in order to access one of the ENIAC's panels from behind, in a narrow space between the back of the panel and the wall of the room, but this would not have been done by a programmer, since the programmers were not authorized to make interior hardware repairs or component replacements, including of vacuum tubes. This would have been done by an engineer or technician, sometimes at the suggestion of a programmer. I have edited the "crawling" language to a statement better supported by the cited reference. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2019-03-26T19:13:00.000Z-There_was_no_crawling" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:13, 26 March 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2019-03-26T19:13:00.000Z-There_was_no_crawling"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2019-03-26T19:13:00.000Z-There_was_no_crawling"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-2019-03-26T19:48:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2019-03-26T19:13:00.000Z"></span>Yes, I've seen most of it (at the Smithsonian when they had it on display, at U Penn, Aberdeen, and Ft. Sill), and it wasn't built in a way that would allow literally crawling inside. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-2019-03-26T19:48:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2019-03-26T19:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:48, 26 March 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-2019-03-26T19:48:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2019-03-26T19:13:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-2019-03-26T19:48:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2019-03-26T19:13:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Guy_Macon-2019-03-26T21:20:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-03-26T19:48:00.000Z"></span>This is from memory, so correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the museum displays only had a portion of ENIAC, not the whole thing. Also, not sure that programmer/operator and engineer/technician were separate jobs, or whether there was some crossover in the tasks tasks they performed. --<a href="/wiki/User:Guy_Macon" title="User:Guy Macon">Guy Macon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Guy_Macon" title="User talk:Guy Macon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Guy_Macon-2019-03-26T21:20:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-03-26T19:48:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:20, 26 March 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Guy_Macon-2019-03-26T21:20:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-03-26T19:48:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Guy_Macon-2019-03-26T21:20:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-03-26T19:48:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2019-03-28T15:26:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-03-26T21:20:00.000Z"></span>They were definitely separate jobs, and I can say with some confidence that none of the engineers or technicians were women. Yes, the ENIAC is in pieces today, but that is irrelevant. Aside from its function tables, card reader, and other ancillary equipment (none of which could be crawled in), the machine comprised 40 panels each 2 feet wide by 2 feet deep by 8 feet high, arranged together in a room in a large U shape. None of these panels could be crawled around in. It would simply be impossible. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2019-03-28T15:26:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-03-26T21:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:26, 28 March 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2019-03-28T15:26:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-03-26T21:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2019-03-28T15:26:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-03-26T21:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-2019-03-28T18:08:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-03-26T21:20:00.000Z"></span>Yes, ENIAC is in pieces. I saw a major part of it when the Smithsonian had it on display in the 1960s and 1970s. (The last time I was there, it wasn't on display and I don't think it is now). U of Penn has four panels and a function table, I've seen that. Aberdeen has a function table, I've seen that. Fort Sill has, I think, seven panels, and I've seen that. I've seen them from the front and back, and there is no room to crawl in them, unless you removed a lot of stuff. And I don't think that was done. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-2019-03-28T18:08:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-03-26T21:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-2019-03-28T18:08:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-03-26T21:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-2019-03-28T18:08:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-03-26T21:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Guy_Macon-2019-03-28T22:43:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-03-28T18:08:00.000Z"></span>That's good enough for me. --<a href="/wiki/User:Guy_Macon" title="User:Guy Macon">Guy Macon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Guy_Macon" title="User talk:Guy Macon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Guy_Macon-2019-03-28T22:43:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-03-28T18:08:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:43, 28 March 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Guy_Macon-2019-03-28T22:43:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-03-28T18:08:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Guy_Macon-2019-03-28T22:43:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-03-28T18:08:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-20240301005000-There_was_no_crawling"></span>ENIAC was in a 33' by 55' room, according to page 72 of </p> <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFDyson2012" class="citation cs2">Dyson, George (2012), <i>Turing's Cathedral</i>, Vintage Books, <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-1-4000-7599-7" title="Special:BookSources/978-1-4000-7599-7"><bdi>978-1-4000-7599-7</bdi></a></cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Turing%27s+Cathedral&rft.pub=Vintage+Books&rft.date=2012&rft.isbn=978-1-4000-7599-7&rft.aulast=Dyson&rft.aufirst=George&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3AENIAC" class="Z3988"></span> <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-20240301005000-There_was_no_crawling" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-20240301005000-There_was_no_crawling"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-20240301005000-There_was_no_crawling"></span></li></ul> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Colossus" data-mw-thread-id="h-Colossus-2019-04-06T17:06:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Colossus-2019-04-06T17:06:00.000Z"></span>Colossus<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Colossus-2019-04-06T17:06:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=51" title="Edit section: Colossus"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-2019-04-06T17:06:00.000Z-Colossus"></span>I'm not sure that Colossus was a general-purpose computer. Most sources say that it was not. For instance, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/colossus/index.htm">this</a> says that it was a fixed-program computer. I bought the book <i>Colossus: The secrets of Bletchley Park's code-breaking computers</i> in 2011 but I haven't been able to find it. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-2019-04-06T17:06:00.000Z-Colossus" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:06, 6 April 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-2019-04-06T17:06:00.000Z-Colossus"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-2019-04-06T17:06:00.000Z-Colossus"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-2019-04-06T18:22:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-04-06T17:06:00.000Z"></span>And <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HH-asvLAj4">this video</a> says that Colossus was a special-purpose computer, as does <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkSxC9pFGZs">this video</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-2019-04-06T18:22:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-04-06T17:06:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:22, 6 April 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-2019-04-06T18:22:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-04-06T17:06:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-2019-04-06T18:22:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-04-06T17:06:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Guy_Macon-2019-04-06T18:58:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-04-06T18:22:00.000Z"></span>In my opinion, we need an article or a section in an article that talks about the various definitions of "first" we are using on various pages.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>As an example, Bubba73 is correct in saying that Colossus was a fixed program computer, but a more accurate description would be that Colossus was not a stored-program computer. "fixed" implies that you cannot change the program. With Colossus, the program resided in the switches and plugs/jack and could be changed. The same is true of the early versions of ENIAC.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>I do not believe that Colossus wasn't a general-purpose computer. General purpose is not the same as stored program. And "used for a special purpose" is not the same as "cannot be used as a general purpose device". The microcontrollers in your mouse and keyboard are general purpose devices used for a special purpose.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>See this revert:<a class="external autonumber" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ENIAC&curid=66572&diff=891239328&oldid=891233954">[4]</a></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>See the description of Colossus at our <a href="/wiki/Colossus#computing" class="mw-disambig" title="Colossus">Colossus#computing</a> disambiguation page.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>See <a href="/wiki/ENIAC" title="ENIAC">ENIAC</a> (1945)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>See <a href="/wiki/Colossus_computer" title="Colossus computer">Colossus computer</a> (1943)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>See <a href="/wiki/Atanasoff%E2%80%93Berry_computer" title="Atanasoff–Berry computer">Atanasoff–Berry computer</a> (1942)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>See <a href="/wiki/Z1_(computer)" title="Z1 (computer)">Z1 (computer)</a> (1938) and <a href="/wiki/Z3_(computer)" title="Z3 (computer)">Z3 (computer)</a> (1941)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>See <a href="/wiki/Pascal%27s_calculator" title="Pascal's calculator">Pascal's calculator</a> (1645)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>See <a href="/wiki/Analytical_Engine" class="mw-redirect" title="Analytical Engine">Analytical Engine</a> (Designed in 1837, never built [ but we are getting close<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://plan28.org/">[5]</a> ] )</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Our <a href="/wiki/History_of_computing_hardware" title="History of computing hardware">History of computing hardware</a> article says "The castle clock, a hydropowered mechanical astronomical clock invented by Ismail al-Jazari in 1206, was the first programmable analog computer." (1206)</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>--<a href="/wiki/User:Guy_Macon" title="User:Guy Macon">Guy Macon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Guy_Macon" title="User talk:Guy Macon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Guy_Macon-2019-04-06T18:58:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-04-06T18:22:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:58, 6 April 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Guy_Macon-2019-04-06T18:58:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-04-06T18:22:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Guy_Macon-2019-04-06T18:58:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-04-06T18:22:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-2019-04-07T00:00:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-04-06T18:58:00.000Z"></span>A "general-purpose" computer is Turing-complete. See <a href="/wiki/Colossus_computer#Influence_and_fate" title="Colossus computer">Colossus_computer#Influence and fate</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-2019-04-07T00:00:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-04-06T18:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:00, 7 April 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-2019-04-07T00:00:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-04-06T18:58:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-2019-04-07T00:00:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-04-06T18:58:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Guy_Macon-2019-04-22T20:49:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-04-07T00:00:00.000Z"></span>But <b>why</b> do you define a "general-purpose" computer as being Turing-complete instead of the obvious "able to be reprogrammed for a wide variety of purposes"? --<a href="/wiki/User:Guy_Macon" title="User:Guy Macon">Guy Macon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Guy_Macon" title="User talk:Guy Macon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Guy_Macon-2019-04-22T20:49:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-04-07T00:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:49, 22 April 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Guy_Macon-2019-04-22T20:49:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-04-07T00:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Guy_Macon-2019-04-22T20:49:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-04-07T00:00:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-2019-04-22T21:22:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-04-22T20:49:00.000Z"></span>A Turing-complete computer corresponds to our notion of what a computer is capable of doing, as in the <a href="/wiki/Church-Turing_Thesis" class="mw-redirect" title="Church-Turing Thesis">Church-Turing Thesis</a>. And a "wide variety" is not as broad. A general-purpose computer isn't limited in the domain of things that it can do. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-2019-04-22T21:22:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-04-22T20:49:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:22, 22 April 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-2019-04-22T21:22:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-04-22T20:49:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-2019-04-22T21:22:00.000Z-Guy_Macon-2019-04-22T20:49:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agenda" data-mw-thread-id="h-Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agend-2019-04-22T19:18:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agend-2019-04-22T19:18:00.000Z"></span>Typical American Centric nonsensical const6ructed history with a political agenda<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agend-2019-04-22T19:18:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=52" title="Edit section: Typical American Centric nonsensical const6ructed history with a political agenda"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Pickypedian-2019-04-22T19:18:00.000Z-Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agend"></span>Article is woeful and reeks of 2017- onward social justice movement diatribe, history adjusted to suit political fads of gender equality and other US fixations on whitewashing to remedy the unfortunate actual past of humans being largely unpleasant to one another based on race, religion and sex. Readers are lead to believe Wikipedia is an electronic equivalent to Encyclopedia Britannica, an unbiased and historical source free from whatever contemporary foul winds of politics may blow- in this case Intersectionality. It is a great injustice to the reader and history in general that the plain unvarnished truth simply be told as is, a collection of dates and facts without the US inclination to "interpret history", "subjectivity of truth", etc as per Adorno and other members of the New Frankfurt School, Deconstructionism and Intersectionality. <br/> </p><p>Credit to the first computer should neither go to Colossus nor Babbage or any Bletchley Park code-cracking speciality machines- total and utter rubbish and classic British Royal Institue style over-reach-ophilia claiming fame for every major invention under the sun along with their beloved alchemist Newton (yes the majority of Newton's (<i><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_last_magician_isaac_newtons_dark_secrets">https://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_last_magician_isaac_newtons_dark_secrets</a></i>: " <i>Newton the Alchemist: Science, Enigma, and the Quest for Nature's "Secret Fire</i>"; "'<b>Isaac Newton and the Transmutation of Alchemy</b>; "<i>Isaac the Alchemist: Secrets of Isaac Newton, Reveal'd</i>", <i>The Foundations of Newton's Alchemy</i>), output was Alchemy- he was a John Dee admirer very probably a consumer of Royal Kings' Drops (distilled cadaver cranium) and a certifiable lunatic)., <br/> but the genius of Konrad Zuse, whose Z2 In September 1940 to experts of the Deutsche Versuchsanstalt für Luftfahrt (DVL; i.e. German Research Institute for Aviation) where Germany had multiple supersonic wind tunnels, and the Allies none, as they were at least a decade behind German aeronautics- see Whittle vs Ohain on the jet turbine, and how we to this day use Ohain and have rejected the Whittle concept of the radial to the Ohain axial compressor. The peer-reviewed S<i>pringer Journal of IFIP WG 9.7 International Conference on the History of Computing (Arthur Tatnall, Tilly Blyth, Roger Johnson Springer: 6 Des 2013: ISBN 9783642416507</i>) held by <b>academics in Computing History</b> in esteem <b>MUST THEREFORE BE ACCORDINGLY RESPECTED BY WIKIPEDIA AMATEUR HISTORIANS and HISTORIOGRAPHERS</b> regardless of their personal biases. I quote the preface: "The HC 2013, held in London, UK, in June 2013, where 29 revised full papers presented were carefully reviewed and selected from numerous submissions. The papers cover a wide range of topics related to the history of computing and offer a number of different approaches to making this history relevant..." This is the academia of History of Computing- their journals and publishing must rank as absolutely last-word in the area of computer history, no matter the opinions of non Computer Historians- their opinion, unless published and peer-reviewed, is mere anecdote and hearsay.<br/> </p><p>I quote from our learned friends of Springer : <i>"Making the History of Computing Relevant: IFIP WG 9.7 International Conference, HC 2013, London, UK, June 17-18, 2013, Revised Selected Papers: </i> page 287: Horst Zuse (author)<i>, url: <a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://books.google.com/books?id=Y5e6BQAAQBAJ">[6]</a>: </i> "In this paper we describe the reconstruction of the Konrad Zuse Machine Z3 by the author Horst Zuse in 2008: "Today in the whole world, <b>Konrad Zuse is almost unanimously accepted as the creator/inventor of the first free programmable computer with a binary floating point and switching system that really worked.</b> <br/> </p><p>This machine called the Z3- was completed in his small workshop in Berlin (Krezberg) in 1941. Zuse's first thoughts about the logical and technical principles go back to 1934. Zonrad Zuse also created the first programming language (1942-1945) in the world called the Plankalkül. In 1949, he founded the company Zuse KG in Neukirchen (close to Fulda) and built till 1964 more than 250 computers for universities and research facilities. In 1934 Konrad Zuse formulated the first ideas on computing. The reason was the expensive calculations as a civil engineer. His idea was such stupid calculations should be done by machines and not by human beings. The first question, which Konrad Zuse discussed in 1934 was: "W<i>hat mathematical problems should a computing machine solve</i>?"<br/> </p><p>His answer was the following definition of computing (1936): "<i>To build new specifications from given specifications by a prescription</i>". In the year 1943 he expanded the definitions to: "<i>Computing is the deviation of result specifications to any specifications by a prescription</i>". From these definitions Konrad Zuse defined the logical architecture of his computers Z1 (1936-1938), Z2 (1938) and Z3 (1941-1945). From the beginning it was clear to him, that his computers should be freely programmable. This means they should read an arbitrary meaningful sequence of instructions from a punch tape and the machines should work in the binary digit system, because Konrad Zuse wanted to construct his computers with binary switching elements. Not only should the numbers be represented in a binary form, but the whole logic of the machine should work in a binary switching mechanism (0-1 principle)_ He planned a high performance binary floating point unit which allowed calculating very small and very big numbers with sufficient precision. He implemented a high performance adder with a one-step carry-ahead and precise arithmetic exceptions handling. He developed a memory where each cell could be addressed by the punch tape and could store arbitrary data, Finally, he constructed a control unity which controlled the whole machine and implement input and output devices from the binary to decimal number system and vice versa. <br/> </p><p><b>Parallel Machine</b>: The Z3 was a parallel working machine. The 22 bits from the memory to Register R1 and vice evrsas were moved in one step (cycle). The same holds for the binary arithmetic unit, where among others, two parallel adders (exponent, mantissa) were used. </p><p><b>Memory</b>: The memory of Z3 consisted of 64 words of 22-bits. Each word was directly addressable by the instructions Pr z or PS z, where z is the address in the range of 64<z<1. For each bit, a relay was needed<br/> </p><p><b>Floating point numbers</b>: Konrad Zuse used floating point numbers .<br/> </p><p><b>Instructions</b>: The Z3 disposed of the nine instructions<br/> </p><p><b>Arithmetic Unit and Carry Ahead</b>: The arithmetic unit of the Z3 is Konrad Zuse's masterstroke. For the realization of addition (subtraction is an additions of the complement of one number and the number) Konrad Zuse implements a special switch because he wanted avoid too many cycles for the addition of two binary floating point numbers. USig the special switch, he could reduce the addition from at least 14 cycles with a serial addition down to three cycles with a parallel addition. Although there were only five instructions (Ls1, Ls2, Lm, Li and Lw) for arithmetic operations some more operations were implemented which could be called from the input device. He also simplified the execution of the arithmetic operations with consequences controlled by stepwise relays." (pages 287-290)<br/> </p><p>Our learned friends in Wikipedai [History of Computer Hardware} state: "In 1941, Zuse followed his earlier machine up with the Z3,[58] the world's first working electromechanical programmable, fully automatic digital computer. The Z3 was built with 2000 relays, implementing a 22-bit word length that operated at a clock frequency of about 5–10 Hz. Program code and data were stored on punched film. It was quite similar to modern machines in some respects, pioneering numerous advances such as floating point numbers. Replacement of the hard-to-implement decimal system (used in Charles Babbage's earlier design) by the simpler binary system meant that Zuse's machines were easier to build and potentially more reliable, given the technologies available at that time.[61] The Z3 was probably a Turing-complete machine. In two 1936 patent applications, Zuse also anticipated that machine instructions could be stored in the same storage used for data—the key insight of what became known as the von Neumann architecture, first implemented in 1948 in America in the electromechanical IBM SSEC and in Britain in the fully electronic Manchester Baby."<br/> </p><p>"Zuse suffered setbacks during World War II when some of his machines were destroyed in the course of Allied bombing campaigns. Apparently his work remained largely unknown to engineers in the UK and US until much later, although <b>at least IBM was aware of it as it financed his post-war startup company in 1946 in return for an option on Zuse's patents</b>. "<br/> </p><p>I have demonstrated teat ENIAC's claims are based in wishful and magical thinking not fact, and that Colossus while a massive resource dump for British Intelligence and a major national ego back-pat, is not acknowledged by the computer history academia as being as Horst Zuse states: "Today, the Z3 is widely acknowledged as being the first fully functional automatic digital computer"<br/> </p><p>Furthermore Colossus was not one computer but a set of computers and let's notice the paradoxes of the opening paragraph of the Wikipedia article: "Colossus <b>was a set of computers</b> developed by British codebreakers in the years <b>1943–1945</b> to help in the <b>cryptanalysis of the Lorenz cipher.</b> Colossus used thermionic valves (vacuum tubes) to perform Boolean and counting operations. Colossus is thus regarded[3] as the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer, <b>although it was programmed by switches and plugs and not by a stored program</b>.[4] ALTHOUGH IT WAS PROGRAMMED BY SWITCHES AND PLUGS NOT A STORED PROGRAM NOR LANGUAGE. The prototype, Colossus Mark 1, was shown to be <b>working in December 1943 and was in use at Bletchley Park by early 1944</b>. An improved Colossus Mark 2 that used shift registers to quintuple the processing speed, first worked on 1 June 1944, just in time for the Normandy landings on D-Day. Ten Colossi were in use by the end of the war and an eleventh was being commissioned.[7] Bletchley Park's use of these machines allowed the Allies to obtain a vast amount of high-level military intelligence from intercepted radiotelegraphy messages between the German High Command (OKW) and their army commands throughout occupied Europe." <br/> </p><p>Z1, Z2 and Z3 (1941) all predate Colossus (1943), all used a binary system and a programmable language of Zuse own contrivance Plantalkül (Plan Calculus). Colossus therefore excludes itself as " it was programmed by switches and plugs and not by a stored program".<br/> </p><p><br/> Further buttressing Zuse's neglected position in computer history is the following material from the Wikipedia article {Konrad Zuse]: "Plantalkül slightly influenced the design of ALGOL 58[29] but was itself implemented only in 1975 in a dissertation by Joachim Hohmann.[30] Heinz Rutishauser, one of the inventors of ALGOL, wrote: "The very first attempt to devise an algorithmic language was undertaken in 1948 by K. Zuse. His notation was quite general, but the proposal never attained the consideration it deserved"." <br/> From [History of computer hardware] "Zuse suffered setbacks during World War II when some of his machines were destroyed in the course of Allied bombing campaigns. Apparently his work remained largely unknown to engineers in the UK and US until much later, although at least IBM was aware of it as it financed his post-war startup company in 1946 in return for an option on Zuse's patents." </p><p>Let's grow up and give credit due to whom it is due.<a href="/wiki/User:Pickypedian" title="User:Pickypedian">Pickypedian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Pickypedian" title="User talk:Pickypedian">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Pickypedian-2019-04-22T19:18:00.000Z-Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agend" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:18, 22 April 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Pickypedian-2019-04-22T19:18:00.000Z-Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agend"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Pickypedian-2019-04-22T19:18:00.000Z-Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agend"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Guy_Macon-2019-04-22T21:01:00.000Z-Pickypedian-2019-04-22T19:18:00.000Z"></span>...Because walking into a talk page where experienced editors are working towards making a good, accurate article and unloading a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RIGHTGREATWRONGS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RIGHTGREATWRONGS">WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS</a> wall of text and insulting everybody who is working on the article is a <b>great</b> way to improve Wikipedia. Your only problem is that you didn't go far enough. You need to call us a bedwetting telemarketing nazi cabal. That will surely<a rel="nofollow" class="external autonumber" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixljWVyPby0">[7]</a> convince everyone! --<a href="/wiki/User:Guy_Macon" title="User:Guy Macon">Guy Macon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Guy_Macon" title="User talk:Guy Macon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Guy_Macon-2019-04-22T21:01:00.000Z-Pickypedian-2019-04-22T19:18:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:01, 22 April 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Guy_Macon-2019-04-22T21:01:00.000Z-Pickypedian-2019-04-22T19:18:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Guy_Macon-2019-04-22T21:01:00.000Z-Pickypedian-2019-04-22T19:18:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <p><br/> <i><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-69.181.160.12-2019-06-16T11:20:00.000Z-Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agend"></span>Multiple</i> supersonic wind tunnels?!? <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/69.181.160.12" title="Special:Contributions/69.181.160.12">69.181.160.12</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:69.181.160.12&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:69.181.160.12 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-69.181.160.12-2019-06-16T11:20:00.000Z-Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agend" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:20, 16 June 2019 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-69.181.160.12-2019-06-16T11:20:00.000Z-Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agend"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-69.181.160.12-2019-06-16T11:20:00.000Z-Typical_American_Centric_nonsensical_const6ructed_history_with_a_political_agend"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Cost" data-mw-thread-id="h-Cost-2019-04-27T08:12:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Cost-2019-04-27T08:12:00.000Z"></span>Cost<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Cost-2019-04-27T08:12:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=53" title="Edit section: Cost"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-04-27T08:12:00.000Z-Cost"></span>The article has the following cost amounts: </p> <ol><li>"having cost almost $500,000 (approximately $6,300,000 today)" done as plain text with an unknown date sometime in the past for "today"</li> <li>"The total cost was about $487,000, equivalent to $7,051,000 in 2018" calculated via <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Inflation" title="Template:Inflation">inflation</a>}}</code> based on 1943 dollars</li> <li>"the final cost was almost $500,000 (approximately $6,400,000 today)" calculated via <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Inflation" title="Template:Inflation">inflation</a>}}</code> based on 1946 dollars</li></ol> <p>Assuming $487,000 was rounded to $500,000 and acknowledging the problems of calculating 194x dollars as equivalent 2019 dollars, can anybody provide a consistent figure for today's cost? <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Stepho-wrs-2019-04-27T08:12:00.000Z-Cost" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:12, 27 April 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-04-27T08:12:00.000Z-Cost"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-04-27T08:12:00.000Z-Cost"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-2019-04-27T18:21:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-04-27T08:12:00.000Z"></span>The <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm">CPI calculator</a> gives $487,000 in 1944 US dollars as about $7,045,000 in 2019. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-2019-04-27T18:21:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-04-27T08:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:21, 27 April 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-2019-04-27T18:21:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-04-27T08:12:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-2019-04-27T18:21:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-04-27T08:12:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Who_had_the_idea_of_the_stored-program_computer?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Who_had_the_idea_of_the_stored-program_computer?-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z"><span id="Who_had_the_idea_of_the_stored-program_computer.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Who_had_the_idea_of_the_stored-program_computer?-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z"></span>Who had the idea of the stored-program computer?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Who_had_the_idea_of_the_stored-program_computer?-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=54" title="Edit section: Who had the idea of the stored-program computer?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z-Who_had_the_idea_of_the_stored-program_computer?"></span>The article states: </p> <dl><dd><i>Though the idea of a stored-program computer with combined memory for program and data was conceived during the development of ENIAC, it was not initially implemented in ENIAC because World War II priorities required the machine to be completed quickly, and ENIAC's 20 storage locations would be too small to hold data and programs</i></dd></dl> <p>I'd be surprised if Turing was not aware of the value of combining program and data in the same memory well before WW2 (he sees no need in his original ACE proposal to spell out the value of computers being able to execute instructions they have calculated when he indicates his design makes it possible) and I guess that Zuse had also appreciated this before designing the Z3 (Zuse saw that compiling his Plankalkul was the kind of mechanical operation a souped-up Z3 could tackle). This quote should make clear who it was on the ENIAC team who had the stored-program idea we are talking about exactly. A source would be nice. </p><p>An annoying thing about the literature is how 'siloed' it seems to be: people who write about US computing machinery are generally distinct from those who write about the UK's, and then again about Zuse's work, and they use somewhat different language and emphases. I have some familiarity with the technical details of the ACE and Deuce and my reaction to reading about the US and German work is to ask questions like "in what way is it Turing complete?" (i.e., what does a translation from a standard TC-complete formalism to what the programmers input into the machine look like) and "how did the machine transform its input (e.g., Hollerith cards) into the internal electronic representation it worked with?"; this article's references do not indicate clearly which sources I should look at to get answers. I plan on providing better coverage for the ACE & Deuce machines, and with help from others, I think that Wikipedia could provide a well-grounded and cosmopolitan view. — <a href="/wiki/User:Chalst" title="User:Chalst"><i>Charles Stewart</i></a> <small><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chalst" title="User talk:Chalst">(talk)</a></small> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z-Who_had_the_idea_of_the_stored-program_computer?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:20, 16 May 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z-Who_had_the_idea_of_the_stored-program_computer?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z-Who_had_the_idea_of_the_stored-program_computer?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dicklyon-2019-05-17T04:50:00.000Z-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z"></span>Part of the reason for the siloed and incomplete history of British computing is that everything that happened at Bletchley Park was hidden by the official secrets law until something like 1975, and even then not everything came out. The book <i>Colossus</i> edited by B. Jack Copeland is a must-read. It probably will answer some of your questions. He has also written a lot more on Turing. Good idea to work on this in WP. <a href="/wiki/User:Dicklyon" title="User:Dicklyon">Dicklyon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dicklyon" title="User talk:Dicklyon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Dicklyon-2019-05-17T04:50:00.000Z-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:50, 17 May 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dicklyon-2019-05-17T04:50:00.000Z-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dicklyon-2019-05-17T04:50:00.000Z-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z"></span></dd> <dd><a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored-program_computer#cite_note-Reilly2003-3"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dicklyon-2019-05-17T04:59:00.000Z-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z"></span>Ref 3 at Stored-program computer</a>] says Presper and Eckert were well aware of the stored-program concept and advantages before the built ENIAC. <a href="/wiki/User:Dicklyon" title="User:Dicklyon">Dicklyon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dicklyon" title="User talk:Dicklyon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Dicklyon-2019-05-17T04:59:00.000Z-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:59, 17 May 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dicklyon-2019-05-17T04:59:00.000Z-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dicklyon-2019-05-17T04:59:00.000Z-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-2019-05-17T05:06:00.000Z-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z"></span>"I'd be surprised if Turing was not aware of the value of combining program and data in the same memory..." Putting the program and data in the same memory is not the same as a stored program. For instance, the <a href="/wiki/Harvard_architecture" title="Harvard architecture">Harvard architecture</a> has data in memory but the program stored in different memory (which kind of makes better sense). <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-2019-05-17T05:06:00.000Z-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:06, 17 May 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-2019-05-17T05:06:00.000Z-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-2019-05-17T05:06:00.000Z-Chalst-2019-05-16T11:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Acronym" data-mw-thread-id="h-Acronym-2019-06-29T03:00:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Acronym-2019-06-29T03:00:00.000Z"></span>Acronym<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Acronym-2019-06-29T03:00:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=55" title="Edit section: Acronym"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T03:00:00.000Z-Acronym"></span>I was getting annoyed by the recent too-ing and fro-ing between "Electronic Numerical Integrator And Computer" and "Electronic Numerical Integrator And Automatic Computer", so I went to the 1947 patent at <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://patents.google.com/patent/US3120606A/en">https://patents.google.com/patent/US3120606A/en</a> . It is listed there as "ELECTRONIC NUMERICAL INTEGRATOR AND COMPUTER". <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T03:00:00.000Z-Acronym" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:00, 29 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T03:00:00.000Z-Acronym"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T03:00:00.000Z-Acronym"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Robert_K_S-2019-06-29T03:53:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T03:00:00.000Z"></span>It is not like there are not two linked ref superscripts right after the name. This falls into the category of obvious vandalism, although there are some who refuse to acknowledge that. <a href="/wiki/User:Robert_K_S" title="User:Robert K S">Robert K S</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Robert_K_S" title="User talk:Robert K S">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Robert_K_S-2019-06-29T03:53:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T03:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:53, 29 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Robert_K_S-2019-06-29T03:53:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T03:00:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Robert_K_S-2019-06-29T03:53:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T03:00:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T04:13:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2019-06-29T03:53:00.000Z"></span>Sometimes it has to be made blatantly obvious. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T04:13:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2019-06-29T03:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:13, 29 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T04:13:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2019-06-29T03:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T04:13:00.000Z-Robert_K_S-2019-06-29T03:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AussieLegend-2019-06-29T07:53:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T04:13:00.000Z"></span>You are correct <a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs">Stepho-wrs</a> but the confusion has always been there. Back when I was doing my electronics training back in the late 70s, by which time I had worked on <a href="/wiki/PDP-8" title="PDP-8">PDP-8</a>, <a href="/wiki/PDP-11" title="PDP-11">PDP-11</a>, <a href="/wiki/CDC_160_series" title="CDC 160 series">CDC 160 A</a> and built my own <a href="/wiki/EDUC-8" title="EDUC-8">EDUC-8</a>, even some of the textbooks (not that there were many then!) included both "Analyzer" and "Automatic" with "Automatic" being the far more common of the two. The anonymous editor's edits today were certainly not vandalism, they were just misinformed/misguided. Jim Rowe, who designed the EDUC-8, had similar issues with people calling it the "E-DuCk-8". Fun times. --<a href="/wiki/User:AussieLegend" title="User:AussieLegend"><b><span style="color:#008751;">Aussie</span><span style="color:#fcd116;">Legend</span></b></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AussieLegend#top" title="User talk:AussieLegend"><big>✉</big></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-AussieLegend-2019-06-29T07:53:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T04:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:53, 29 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AussieLegend-2019-06-29T07:53:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T04:13:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AussieLegend-2019-06-29T07:53:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-29T04:13:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z-AussieLegend-2019-06-29T07:53:00.000Z"></span>While I don't have any knowledge about the particulars of this I can suggest that you consider a footnote to explain the discrepancy between the wording used. One example is how the infobox mention of Wendy/Walter Carlos is dealt with at the <a href="/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange_(film)" title="A Clockwork Orange (film)">A Clockwork Orange (film)</a> article. Just a suggestion mind if the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CONSENSUS" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CONSENSUS">WP:CONSENSUS</a> is to leave things as they are that is fine as well. <a href="/wiki/User:MarnetteD" title="User:MarnetteD">MarnetteD</a>|<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MarnetteD" title="User talk:MarnetteD">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z-AussieLegend-2019-06-29T07:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:43, 29 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z-AussieLegend-2019-06-29T07:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z-AussieLegend-2019-06-29T07:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z"></span>Since the IPs aren't joining this thread you might ask for a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFPP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFPP">WP:RFPP</a> until they do. <a href="/wiki/User:MarnetteD" title="User:MarnetteD">MarnetteD</a>|<a href="/wiki/User_talk:MarnetteD" title="User talk:MarnetteD">Talk</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:43, 29 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-2019-06-29T16:29:00.000Z-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z"></span>The most recent book on it, the thoroughly researched <i>ENIAC in Action</i>, says "... Integrator And Computer" (page 1). <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-2019-06-29T16:29:00.000Z-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:29, 29 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-2019-06-29T16:29:00.000Z-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-2019-06-29T16:29:00.000Z-MarnetteD-2019-06-29T14:43:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-2019-06-29T17:01:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-06-29T16:29:00.000Z"></span>My two computer science textbooks from the 1970s plus <i>Encyclopedia of Computer Science</i> agree. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-2019-06-29T17:01:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-06-29T16:29:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:01, 29 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-2019-06-29T17:01:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-06-29T16:29:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-2019-06-29T17:01:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-06-29T16:29:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T02:14:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-06-29T17:01:00.000Z"></span>I added a short hidden comment (visible only when editing) to the article saying "Official sources (eg, the US patent) have 'And' for the 'A'. Not 'Analyzer' or 'Automatic'." It probably wont stop every change but at least now we can say that they had to skip over something blatantly obvious when they changed it. I don't feel that it is worth cluttering up the reader visible article with explanations but I also won't stand in the way if others feel such an explanation is wanted. As suggested above, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:RFPP" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:RFPP">WP:RFPP</a> page protection may help in the short term. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T02:14:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-06-29T17:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:14, 30 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T02:14:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-06-29T17:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T02:14:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-06-29T17:01:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-2019-06-30T04:28:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T02:14:00.000Z"></span>I'm leaning toward putting a footnote for the reader. Others may wonder about it, or it may conflict with what they've gotten from another source. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-2019-06-30T04:28:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T02:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:28, 30 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-2019-06-30T04:28:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T02:14:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-2019-06-30T04:28:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T02:14:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T04:31:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-06-30T04:28:00.000Z"></span>The type of people that get confused by this sort of thing very rarely read footnotes. If you want to make it clear to all readers then it has to be inline with the main text. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T04:31:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-06-30T04:28:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">04:31, 30 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T04:31:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-06-30T04:28:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T04:31:00.000Z-Bubba73-2019-06-30T04:28:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-AussieLegend-2019-06-30T06:46:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T04:31:00.000Z"></span>My experience from TV articles is that it's a losing battle but you always have to try. --<a href="/wiki/User:AussieLegend" title="User:AussieLegend"><b><span style="color:#008751;">Aussie</span><span style="color:#fcd116;">Legend</span></b></a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:AussieLegend#top" title="User talk:AussieLegend"><big>✉</big></a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-AussieLegend-2019-06-30T06:46:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T04:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:46, 30 June 2019 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-AussieLegend-2019-06-30T06:46:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T04:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-AussieLegend-2019-06-30T06:46:00.000Z-Stepho-wrs-2019-06-30T04:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Order_of_the_names" data-mw-thread-id="h-Order_of_the_names-2020-02-15T18:16:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Order_of_the_names-2020-02-15T18:16:00.000Z"></span>Order of the names<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Order_of_the_names-2020-02-15T18:16:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=56" title="Edit section: Order of the names"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Simsong-2020-02-15T18:16:00.000Z-Order_of_the_names"></span>Why are the names <a href="/wiki/Kathleen_Antonelli" title="Kathleen Antonelli">Kay McNulty</a>, <a href="/wiki/Jean_Bartik" title="Jean Bartik">Betty Jennings</a>, <a href="/wiki/Betty_Holberton" title="Betty Holberton">Betty Snyder</a>, <a href="/wiki/Marlyn_Wescoff" class="mw-redirect" title="Marlyn Wescoff">Marlyn Meltzer</a>, <a href="/wiki/Frances_Spence" title="Frances Spence">Fran Bilas</a>, and <a href="/wiki/Ruth_Teitelbaum" title="Ruth Teitelbaum">Ruth Lichterman</a> not presented in alphabetical order? <a href="/wiki/User:Simsong" title="User:Simsong">Simsong</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Simsong" title="User talk:Simsong">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Simsong-2020-02-15T18:16:00.000Z-Order_of_the_names" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:16, 15 February 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Simsong-2020-02-15T18:16:00.000Z-Order_of_the_names"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Simsong-2020-02-15T18:16:00.000Z-Order_of_the_names"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Recent_edit/revert_to_lede_,_"fifteen_seconds"" data-mw-thread-id="h-Recent_edit/revert_to_lede_,_"fifteen_seconds"-2020-03-25T12:27:00.000Z"><span id="Recent_edit.2Frevert_to_lede_.2C_.22fifteen_seconds.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Recent_edit/revert_to_lede_,_"fifteen_seconds"-2020-03-25T12:27:00.000Z"></span>Recent edit/revert to lede , "fifteen seconds"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Recent_edit/revert_to_lede_,_"fifteen_seconds"-2020-03-25T12:27:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=57" title="Edit section: Recent edit/revert to lede , "fifteen seconds""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Dgorsline-2020-03-25T12:27:00.000Z-Recent_edit/revert_to_lede_,_"fifteen_seconds""></span>A source for "The Eniac did it in exactly fifteen seconds." T. R. Kennedy, Jr., "Electronic Computer Flashes Answers, May Speed Up Engineering," <i>The New York Times</i>, 15 February 1946, <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://www.nytimes.com/1946/02/15/archives/electronic-computer-flashes-answers-may-speed-engineering-new.html">https://www.nytimes.com/1946/02/15/archives/electronic-computer-flashes-answers-may-speed-engineering-new.html</a> and <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1946/02/15/93052340.pdf">https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1946/02/15/93052340.pdf</a> Also from the story, "... a very difficult wartime problem... The Eniac completed the task in two hours." This <i>Times</i> story is also cited in the Later developments section of the present article. <a href="/wiki/User:Dgorsline" title="User:Dgorsline">Dgorsline</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Dgorsline" title="User talk:Dgorsline">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Dgorsline-2020-03-25T12:27:00.000Z-Recent_edit/revert_to_lede_,_"fifteen_seconds"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:27, 25 March 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Dgorsline-2020-03-25T12:27:00.000Z-Recent_edit/revert_to_lede_,_"fifteen_seconds""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Dgorsline-2020-03-25T12:27:00.000Z-Recent_edit/revert_to_lede_,_"fifteen_seconds""></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Dead_Links" data-mw-thread-id="h-Dead_Links-2022-03-15T16:52:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Dead_Links-2022-03-15T16:52:00.000Z"></span>Dead Links<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Dead_Links-2022-03-15T16:52:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=58" title="Edit section: Dead Links"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-LuckyMiner01-2022-03-15T16:52:00.000Z-Dead_Links"></span>Cite 3, 4 and 11 links are dead (404 errors), there are way back machine archives, but im not sure how to go about implementing them: <br/> [3] <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.phy.ornl.gov/csep/ov/node10.html">https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.phy.ornl.gov/csep/ov/node10.html</a> <br/> [4] <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/2021*/https://www.ushistory.org/more/eniac/public.htm">https://web.archive.org/web/2021*/https://www.ushistory.org/more/eniac/public.htm</a> <br/> [11] <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://web.archive.org/web/2021*/https://www.ushistory.org/more/eniac/public.htm">https://web.archive.org/web/2021*/https://www.ushistory.org/more/eniac/public.htm</a> <br/> <a href="/wiki/User:LuckyMiner01" title="User:LuckyMiner01">LuckyMiner01</a> | I'm new here, so if I make a mistake, please tell me, <a href="/wiki/User_talk:LuckyMiner01" title="User talk:LuckyMiner01">here,</a> so I can learn from it. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-LuckyMiner01-2022-03-15T16:52:00.000Z-Dead_Links" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:52, 15 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-LuckyMiner01-2022-03-15T16:52:00.000Z-Dead_Links"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-LuckyMiner01-2022-03-15T16:52:00.000Z-Dead_Links"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-2022-03-15T21:07:00.000Z-LuckyMiner01-2022-03-15T16:52:00.000Z"></span>Look at reference 2 "The ENIAC story". It has archive-url and archive-date. Do the same thing for references 3,4 and 11. We will help out if you have trouble, so be bold! There is some documentation at <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_journal" title="Template:Cite journal">cite journal</a>}}</code>, <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_news" title="Template:Cite news">cite news</a>}}</code> and <code>{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_web" title="Template:Cite web">cite web</a>}}</code>. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Stepho-wrs-2022-03-15T21:07:00.000Z-LuckyMiner01-2022-03-15T16:52:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:07, 15 March 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-2022-03-15T21:07:00.000Z-LuckyMiner01-2022-03-15T16:52:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-2022-03-15T21:07:00.000Z-LuckyMiner01-2022-03-15T16:52:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="1800_sq_ft" data-mw-thread-id="h-1800_sq_ft-20230903023200"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-1800_sq_ft-20230903023200"></span>1800 sq ft<span data-mw-comment-end="h-1800_sq_ft-20230903023200"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:ENIAC&action=edit&section=59" title="Edit section: 1800 sq ft"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20230903023200-1800_sq_ft"></span>There seems to be some confusion over the size of 1800 sq ft. <span class="nowrap">Rcallen7<span class="mw-no-invert"><span class="skin-invert" typeof="mw:File"><span title="@"><img alt="@" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/At_sign.svg/15px-At_sign.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/At_sign.svg/23px-At_sign.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/At_sign.svg/30px-At_sign.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="145" data-file-height="145"/></span></span></span></span> contends that the 1800 figure was derived from the physical dimensions of 3 ft x 8 ft x 100 ft. But those dimensions give 2400 cu ft, not 1800. The 1800 sq ft figure comes from the reference <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="https://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL-e-h.html#ENIAC">https://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL-e-h.html#ENIAC</a> which states "Space occupied, Computer 1800 sq ft". I take this to be the floor space of the entire main room that the computer sits in, with maybe a hint that other spaces are used for air conditioning plants, power generating/conditioning plants, etc. Looking at the photos of that room, 1800 sq ft (about 42 feet x 42 feet) for that room looks reasonable. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Stepho-wrs-20230903023200-1800_sq_ft" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:32, 3 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20230903023200-1800_sq_ft"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20230903023200-1800_sq_ft"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-20230903031700-Stepho-wrs-20230903023200"></span>I'm working from memory here, but the main part consisted of 40 cabinets (not counting the function tables and periphials), I think they were 3 feet deep and 2.5 feet wide (I need to look that up). That is about 300 square feet for the footprint of ENIAC. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-20230903031700-Stepho-wrs-20230903023200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:17, 3 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-20230903031700-Stepho-wrs-20230903023200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-20230903031700-Stepho-wrs-20230903023200"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-20230903035000-Stepho-wrs-20230903023200"></span>Page 92 of the book <i>ENIAC</i> by <a href="/wiki/Scott_McCartney" title="Scott McCartney">Scott McCartney</a> gives a diagram of how ENIAC was laid out in the room, in a U shape. The back wall held eight cabinets, and there were about 3.5 feet on each side, so the back wall was about 27 feet wide. There were 16 cabinets along each side wall, so that makes 40 feet, but the diagram shows the card equipment extending beyond that, so the room is more than 50 feet long. So that makes the room at least about 1400 square feet. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-20230903035000-Stepho-wrs-20230903023200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:50, 3 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-20230903035000-Stepho-wrs-20230903023200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-20230903035000-Stepho-wrs-20230903023200"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-20230903051600-Bubba73-20230903035000"></span>Actually the room has to have been wider than that because they had to get to the back of the cabinets for servicing, so the room must have been at least 35x50, which is 1,750 square feet, which is in good agreement with the 1800 figure. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-20230903051600-Bubba73-20230903035000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">05:16, 3 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-20230903051600-Bubba73-20230903035000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-20230903051600-Bubba73-20230903035000"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bubba73-20230909181700-1800_sq_ft"></span>{{outdent} </p><p>Do we need to say that it occupied 300 square feet? That can be directly calculated from the length and depth. <a href="/wiki/User:Bubba73" title="User:Bubba73">Bubba73</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bubba73" title="User talk:Bubba73">You talkin' to me?</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Bubba73-20230909181700-1800_sq_ft" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:17, 9 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bubba73-20230909181700-1800_sq_ft"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bubba73-20230909181700-1800_sq_ft"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20230910000700-Bubba73-20230909181700"></span>Agreed. Although we should clarify that 1800 sqft is for the room rather than the machine itself. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ENIAC#c-Stepho-wrs-20230910000700-Bubba73-20230909181700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:07, 10 September 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20230910000700-Bubba73-20230909181700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span 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