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var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Azure%2C_a_bend_Or.svg/25px-Azure%2C_a_bend_Or.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="28" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Azure%2C_a_bend_Or.svg/38px-Azure%2C_a_bend_Or.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Azure%2C_a_bend_Or.svg/51px-Azure%2C_a_bend_Or.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="660"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Heraldry" title="Portal:Heraldry">Heraldry portal</a></span></li></ul><b>Template:Heraldry</b> is within the scope of the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Heraldry_and_vexillology" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology">Heraldry and vexillology WikiProject</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of heraldry and vexillology. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Heraldry_and_vexillology/Tasks" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology/Tasks">list of open tasks</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Heraldry and vexillology</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">heraldry and vexillology</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Clipboard.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Clipboard.svg/40px-Clipboard.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Clipboard.svg/60px-Clipboard.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Clipboard.svg/80px-Clipboard.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="48" data-file-height="48"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This template was considered for <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Merging" title="Wikipedia:Merging">merging</a> with <a href="/w/index.php?title=Template:Heraldic_tinctures&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Template:Heraldic tinctures (page does not exist)">Template:Heraldic tinctures</a> on <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2018-12-29">2018 December 29</span>. The result of the <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2018_December_29#Template:Heraldic_tinctures" title="Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2018 December 29">discussion</a></b> was "<b>keep</b>".</td></tr></tbody></table> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Too_much" data-mw-thread-id="h-Too_much-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Too_much-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z"></span>Too much<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Too_much-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Heraldry&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Too much"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z-Too_much"></span>This template now contains far too many links for a single navigation template, and there is lots, lots more out there on heraldry in templates. This merging should be reconsidered and discussed. --<a href="/wiki/User:EncycloPetey" title="User:EncycloPetey">EncycloPetey</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EncycloPetey" title="User talk:EncycloPetey">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z-Too_much" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:54, 26 September 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z-Too_much"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z-Too_much"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T14:01:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z"></span>The idea is not to merge all, but notably the ones about charges and related. There are still templates around that are larger. Typically, it isn't too large if it fits well within the frame of a typical computer screen size. So there is arguably even some space left for extentionals. However, per <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Notfinished" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Notfinished">WP:Notfinished</a>, if it gets too heavy later on, it could indeed use a split. <a href="/wiki/User:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Chicbyaccident">Chicbyaccident</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Chicbyaccident">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T14:01:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:01, 26 September 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T14:01:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T14:01:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T16:38:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T14:01:00.000Z"></span>Even merging just the ones about charges would create a monster-sized template. We have to think not only about "typical" computer screens, but what is available in schools, laptops, and mobile devices. This is already well over the size on many mobile devices. --<a href="/wiki/User:EncycloPetey" title="User:EncycloPetey">EncycloPetey</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EncycloPetey" title="User talk:EncycloPetey">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T16:38:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T14:01:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:38, 26 September 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T16:38:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T14:01:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T16:38:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T14:01:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T17:03:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T16:38:00.000Z"></span>Mobile devices don't include navboxes. There are plenty of navboxes that are much larger than this one. A collected overview is justified, until it becomes to extensive. Then it could use some division. <a href="/wiki/User:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Chicbyaccident">Chicbyaccident</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Chicbyaccident">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T17:03:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T16:38:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:03, 26 September 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T17:03:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T16:38:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T17:03:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T16:38:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T00:05:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T17:03:00.000Z"></span>It already did get too big in the past. That's why it was divided up into separate nav boxes. There is no need to repeat that process; it has already happened. --<a href="/wiki/User:EncycloPetey" title="User:EncycloPetey">EncycloPetey</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EncycloPetey" title="User talk:EncycloPetey">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T00:05:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T17:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:05, 27 September 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T00:05:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T17:03:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T00:05:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T17:03:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-27T10:32:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T00:05:00.000Z"></span>The collective overview has its merits. When, and if, it becomes too big, it should be splitted. Until, however, there are too many other navboxes that are as big or bigger. See for instance <a href="/wiki/Template:Greek_religion" title="Template:Greek religion">Template:Greek religion</a>, etc. I can't see any prevailing arguments for an exception in this case. <a href="/wiki/User:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Chicbyaccident">Chicbyaccident</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Chicbyaccident">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-27T10:32:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T00:05:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">10:32, 27 September 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-27T10:32:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T00:05:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-27T10:32:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T00:05:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T13:02:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-27T10:32:00.000Z"></span>I can't see any reason to merge, but the choice was already made in the past to split. You have given to reason to reverse that decision. Th fact that some other templates out there are too big is not a reason to make this one too big as well. That kind of reasoning has never been valid. --<a href="/wiki/User:EncycloPetey" title="User:EncycloPetey">EncycloPetey</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EncycloPetey" title="User talk:EncycloPetey">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T13:02:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-27T10:32:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:02, 27 September 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T13:02:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-27T10:32:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T13:02:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-27T10:32:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-28T18:12:00.000Z-Too_much"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:EncycloPetey" title="User:EncycloPetey">EncycloPetey</a>:</span> I have taken your objections into account. How about splitting it in two, with one navbox footer titled "Heraldic achievement", including "Escutcheon (shield)", "Tinctures", "Creatures", "Knots" as groups, along with the image to the right? <a href="/wiki/User:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Chicbyaccident">Chicbyaccident</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Chicbyaccident">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-28T18:12:00.000Z-Too_much" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:12, 28 September 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-28T18:12:00.000Z-Too_much"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-28T18:12:00.000Z-Too_much"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-29T01:02:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-28T18:12:00.000Z"></span>I don't understand how you are proposing to divide this up, or how additional content that isn't yet in the template(s) would be allotted. I would think that the Heraldic tinctures would be an entirely separate navbox, for one. There is no overlap into the other sections of the template, but it is necessary to set the heraldic tincture series apart from the countless "color" pages on Wikipedia. --<a href="/wiki/User:EncycloPetey" title="User:EncycloPetey">EncycloPetey</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EncycloPetey" title="User talk:EncycloPetey">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-29T01:02:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-28T18:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:02, 29 September 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-29T01:02:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-28T18:12:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-29T01:02:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-28T18:12:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Re5x-2017-09-30T08:38:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-29T01:02:00.000Z"></span>I agree with EncycloPetey. This navbox is now just too crowded :( ... Simplicity is key and this template should be about a general overview on heraldry. The reasoning that other templates are larger is quite a poor one... --<a href="/wiki/User:Re5x" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Re5x">Re5x</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Re5x" title="User talk:Re5x">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Re5x-2017-09-30T08:38:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-29T01:02:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:38, 30 September 2017 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Re5x-2017-09-30T08:38:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-29T01:02:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Re5x-2017-09-30T08:38:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-29T01:02:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template" data-mw-thread-id="h-Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z"></span>Suggestion to remove the image from the template<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Heraldry&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Suggestion to remove the image from the template"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bensin-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z-Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template"></span>I suggest removing the image from the template. The image is educational, but too large for a navigation template. The image belongs in the article <a href="/wiki/Coat_of_arms" title="Coat of arms">Coat of arms</a>, where it is also appropriately placed at the top. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bensin" title="User:Bensin">Bensin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bensin" title="User talk:Bensin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Bensin-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z-Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:59, 23 June 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bensin-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z-Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bensin-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z-Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-23T22:55:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z"></span>One could argue that are plenty of larger navigational boxes that are much larger. Together with the illustration, the navigations box is a fairly complete overview of the subject. Without it, it doesn't. Without it, the idea of the subject is not illustrated. The idea of Wikipedia is arguably to present content - not to erase content because there is too much content. <a href="/wiki/User:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Chicbyaccident">Chicbyaccident</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Chicbyaccident">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-23T22:55:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:55, 23 June 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-23T22:55:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-23T22:55:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bensin-2018-06-24T00:35:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-23T22:55:00.000Z"></span>The purpose of navigation templates is not to illustrate the subject. It is to help users navigate between related articles. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bensin" title="User:Bensin">Bensin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bensin" title="User talk:Bensin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Bensin-2018-06-24T00:35:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-23T22:55:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:35, 24 June 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bensin-2018-06-24T00:35:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-23T22:55:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bensin-2018-06-24T00:35:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-23T22:55:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-24T16:14:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-24T00:35:00.000Z"></span>Since this is after all a visual topic, arguably the illstration helps particularly well here. <a href="/wiki/User:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Chicbyaccident">Chicbyaccident</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Chicbyaccident">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-24T16:14:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-24T00:35:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:14, 24 June 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-24T16:14:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-24T00:35:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-24T16:14:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-24T00:35:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bensin-2018-06-24T22:21:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-24T16:14:00.000Z"></span>I am all for adding useful content, but the best place for this image may not be in a navigation template. Consider that it will show up on every single article that uses this template. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bensin" title="User:Bensin">Bensin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bensin" title="User talk:Bensin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Bensin-2018-06-24T22:21:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-24T16:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:21, 24 June 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bensin-2018-06-24T22:21:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-24T16:14:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bensin-2018-06-24T22:21:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-24T16:14:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-25T08:21:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-24T22:21:00.000Z"></span>Perhaps a third opinion would do. <a href="/wiki/User:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Chicbyaccident">Chicbyaccident</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Chicbyaccident">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-25T08:21:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-24T22:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:21, 25 June 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-25T08:21:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-24T22:21:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-25T08:21:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-24T22:21:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bensin-2018-07-03T22:27:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-25T08:21:00.000Z"></span>Sure! Fresh perspectives are always welcome. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bensin" title="User:Bensin">Bensin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bensin" title="User talk:Bensin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Bensin-2018-07-03T22:27:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-25T08:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:27, 3 July 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bensin-2018-07-03T22:27:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-25T08:21:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bensin-2018-07-03T22:27:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-25T08:21:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="outdent-template" style="position:relative;left:1px;"><span style="display:block;width:9.6em;height:0.5em;border-bottom:1px solid #a2a9b1;border-right:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span><span style="display:block;width:9.6em;height:0.5em;border-left:1px solid #a2a9b1;"></span></div><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Finnusertop-2018-07-03T23:53:00.000Z-Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template"></span> If I've ever seen a useful way to employ an image in a navigation template, it's here. But I agree, it's a bit large and does not fit well within the template. <s>One solution would be to split the image to a navigation sidebar template.</s> Edit, we already have <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Heraldic_achievement" title="Template:Heraldic achievement">Heraldic achievement</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> where it fits better. I think the image should be removed from the footer.<span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– <a href="/wiki/User:Finnusertop" title="User:Finnusertop">Finnusertop</a></span> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Finnusertop" title="User talk:Finnusertop">talk</a> ⋅ <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/Finnusertop" title="Special:Contributions/Finnusertop">contribs</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Finnusertop-2018-07-03T23:53:00.000Z-Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:53, 3 July 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Finnusertop-2018-07-03T23:53:00.000Z-Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Finnusertop-2018-07-03T23:53:00.000Z-Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template"></span> </p><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-09T12:14:00.000Z-Finnusertop-2018-07-03T23:53:00.000Z"></span>Although it may be a bit larger than most templates, there are also other templates that are even larger. Along with the image, the template becomes a complete overview of the subject, which notably does pertain precisely to visual culture as illustrated. Without the image, that would not be the case. <a href="/wiki/User:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Chicbyaccident">Chicbyaccident</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Chicbyaccident">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-09T12:14:00.000Z-Finnusertop-2018-07-03T23:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:14, 9 July 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-09T12:14:00.000Z-Finnusertop-2018-07-03T23:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-09T12:14:00.000Z-Finnusertop-2018-07-03T23:53:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bensin-2018-07-15T00:57:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-09T12:14:00.000Z"></span>There may be templates that are larger. Their layout can be discussed on their respective talk pages. Lets focus this talk about this particular template. The purpose of the template (or any other navigation template) is not to provide a complete overview of the subject. That is what the main article about the subject should do. The purpose of a navigation templates is to assist the user in navigating between articles within the same topic. I suggest removing the image from the template and add a new section to the template called "Coat of arms" where all the elements from the image are listed on one row. --<a href="/wiki/User:Bensin" title="User:Bensin">Bensin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bensin" title="User talk:Bensin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Bensin-2018-07-15T00:57:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-09T12:14:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:57, 15 July 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bensin-2018-07-15T00:57:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-09T12:14:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bensin-2018-07-15T00:57:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-09T12:14:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-15T06:37:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-07-15T00:57:00.000Z"></span>Do you have any more arguments than size concern for the omitting of the overview completing image? <a href="/wiki/User:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Chicbyaccident">Chicbyaccident</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Chicbyaccident" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:Chicbyaccident">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-15T06:37:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-07-15T00:57:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:37, 15 July 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-15T06:37:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-07-15T00:57:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-15T06:37:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-07-15T00:57:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Bensin-2018-07-26T06:36:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-15T06:37:00.000Z"></span>Not that I can think of. Do you agree we should replace the image with its text? --<a href="/wiki/User:Bensin" title="User:Bensin">Bensin</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Bensin" title="User talk:Bensin">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Heraldry#c-Bensin-2018-07-26T06:36:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-15T06:37:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:36, 26 July 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Bensin-2018-07-26T06:36:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-15T06:37:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Bensin-2018-07-26T06:36:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-15T06:37:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?useformat=desktop&type=1x1&usesul3=0" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Heraldry&oldid=1262298518">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Heraldry&oldid=1262298518</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:NA-Class_heraldry_and_vexillology_articles" title="Category:NA-Class heraldry and vexillology articles">NA-Class heraldry and vexillology articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:WikiProject_Heraldry_and_vexillology_articles" title="Category:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology articles">WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology articles</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 10 December 2024, at 17:45<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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