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<?xml version="1.0"?> <feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xml:lang="en"> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=HJ+Mitchell</id> <title>Wikipedia - User contributions [en]</title> <link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=HJ+Mitchell"/> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/HJ_Mitchell"/> <updated>2024-11-27T16:44:21Z</updated> <subtitle>User contributions</subtitle> <generator>MediaWiki 1.44.0-wmf.4</generator> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chatappsmart&diff=1259850019</id> <title>User talk:Chatappsmart</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chatappsmart&diff=1259850019"/> <updated>2024-11-27T12:05:50Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been indefinitely blocked from editing because your account is being used only for spam, advertising, or promotion. <hr /> <div>== November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;You have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing because your account is being used only for [[Wikipedia:Spam|advertising or promotion]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:05, 27 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;[[Category:Wikipedians who are indefinitely blocked for advertising|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;!-- Template:Uw-soablock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:176.74.124.39&diff=1259849887</id> <title>User talk:176.74.124.39</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:176.74.124.39&diff=1259849887"/> <updated>2024-11-27T12:04:37Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. <hr /> <div> == November 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|left|25px|alt=]] Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. 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Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-attempt2 --&gt; &lt;span style=&quot;color: #4169E1&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Synorem|Synorem]]'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:Synorem|talk]]) 06:50, 22 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; == November 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|left|25px|alt=]] Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a message letting you know that one or more of your recent edits to [[:Aby Rosen]] have been undone by an automated computer program called [[User:ClueBot NG|ClueBot NG]]. {{clear}} * ClueBot NG makes very few mistakes, but it does happen. 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If you continue to [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Paddy Pimblett]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. &lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism3 --&gt; [[User:TheM1sty|TheM1sty]] ([[User talk:TheM1sty|talk]]) 10:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; &lt;div style=clear: both&gt;&lt;/div&gt;[[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|alt=|link=]] You may be '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further warning''' the next time you violate Wikipedia's [[WP:BLP|biographies of living persons policy]], as you did with &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paddy%20Pimblett&amp;diff=1259840998 this edit]&lt;/span&gt; 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margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]], as done at [[:Paddy_Pimblett]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:04, 27 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pattukkottai_Kalyanasundaram&diff=1259836990</id> <title>Pattukkottai Kalyanasundaram</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pattukkottai_Kalyanasundaram&diff=1259836990"/> <updated>2024-11-27T09:46:55Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: Reverted edit by Israrkhan32 (talk) to last version by Jevansen <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Indian Tamil poet and lyricist}} {{more citations needed|date=October 2016}} {{peacock|date=December 2016}} {{Use dmy dates|date=August 2020}} {{Use Indian English|date=August 2020}} {{Infobox writer &lt;!-- for more information see [[:Template:Infobox writer/doc]] --&gt; | name = Pattukkottai Kalyanasundaram | image = File:PattuKalayn.jpg | imagesize = | alt = | caption = | pseudonym = | birth_name = Kalyanasundaram | birth_date = {{Birth date|df=yes|1930|04|13}} | birth_place = [[Thamarankottai]], composite [[Tanjore District (Madras Presidency)|Tanjore District]], [[Madras Presidency]], [[British India]] (now [[Thanjavur District]], [[Tamil Nadu]], [[India]]) | death_date = {{Death date and age|df=yes|1959|10|08|1930|04|14}} | death_place = [[Madras]], [[Madras State]] (now [[Chennai]], [[Tamil Nadu]]), [[India]] | occupation = [[poet]], [[lyricist]], [[activist]] | period = 1930–1959 | movement = [[Dravidian movement]], [[Communism]] | notableworks = | spouse = Gowrawammal | children = Kumaravelu | website = {{URL|pattukkottaiyar.com/site}} | portaldisp = | language = Tamil }} '''Pattukkottai Kalyanasundaram''' (13 April 1930&amp;nbsp;– 8 October 1959) also known as '''Pattukottaiyar'''&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=வி.ராம்ஜி |title=பாட்டுக்கோட்டை கட்டிய பட்டுக்கோட்டையார்! |url=https://kamadenu.hindutamil.in/cinema/pattukkottai-kalyanasundaram-memories |access-date=2022-11-30 |website=காமதேனு |date=8 October 2022 |language=ta}}&lt;/ref&gt; was an Indian [[Tamils|Tamil]] [[poet]] and lyricist, penning over 250 songs within a six year period.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Rajasekaran |first=Ilangovan |date=Jun 11, 2014 |title=Songs of the Soil |url=https://frontline.thehindu.com/arts-and-culture/cinema/songs-of-the-soil/article6100786.ece |website=FrontLine}}&lt;/ref&gt; He is best known for writing various song lyrics for [[M. G. Ramachandran]]’s movies from the year 1956 until his death in 1959.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.sangam.org/2010/04/Kalyanasundaram.php| title=Poet Pattukottai Kalyanasundaram; 80th Birthday Remembrance|website=www.sangam.org|access-date=2019-03-24}}&lt;/ref&gt;These lyrics were famed for their biting social commentary and their connection to [[M. G. Ramachandran|Ramachandram]], who later became a Chief Minister.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Dhasarathy |first=Srikkanth |date=28 Apr 2016 |title=Might of His Pen is Alive Even Today |url=https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/chennai/2016/Apr/28/might-of-his-pen-is-alive-even-today-930105.html |website=The New Indian Express}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Early life == Pattukottaiyar was born on April 13th, 1930 in Sengam Padaithan Kadu, a small village located southeast of the town of [[Pattukkottai]], [[Thanjavur District]]. His parents Arunachalam Pillai and Visalakshi Ammal were humble farmers and could not give a formal education to Pattukottaiyar. However, throughout his childhood he learned how to read and write thanks to his father who was formally a Tamil scholar and folk poet.{{Citation needed|date=November 2024}} Pattukottaiyar also had an elder brother, Ganapathisundaram and a sister, Vedhanayaki. == Career == Prior to his movie career, Kalyanasundaram worked for ''Kuyil'', a Tamil magazine run by his mentor, [[Bharathidasan]]. He first wrote lyrics for a Tamil movie ''[[Paditha Penn]],'' penning five songs that were released ahead on November 13th, 1955 under the music director, [[G. Ramanathan]]. The following year he wrote for six movies including ''[[Paditha Penn|Paditha Penn and]] [[Pasavalai]],'' both receiving moderate success. As his career grew he was able to write for larger directors and took more liberty to write more political and social critiques through his songs, most notably with [[M. G. Ramachandran]], an actor/director who moved on to become the 3rd Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu in the 1980s. Kalyanasundaram was very active and successful in the [[Tamil cinema|Tamil film industry]] during the years 1954–1959 and wrote around 250 songs, including several songs for two leading Tamil [[movie star]]s of that period– MGR and Sivaji Ganesan. == Later life == He married a woman named Gowravammal from a village neighboring his home town, [[Athikkottai]]. His mentor [[Bharathidasan]] presided over his marriage on September 11, 1957 in [[Chennai|Madras]], India.{{citation needed|date=December 2011}}&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Pattukkottai Kalyanasundaram |url=https://pattukkottaikalyanasundaram.blogspot.com/2014/10/ |date=12 October 2014}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1959, the couple gave birth to a baby, named Kumaravelu.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.pattukkottaiyar.com/site/?page_id=100|title=Biographical Note|website=www.pattukkottaiyar.com|access-date=2016-12-06}}&lt;/ref&gt; After suffering severe [[migraine]] attacks, Kalyanasundaram underwent surgery on his nose in September 1959. A few days following the operation, he died of a [[cerebral haemorrhage]] on 8 October 1959, at the age of 29.&lt;ref name=&quot;auto&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Ilangovan |first=BY R. |date=2014-06-11 |title=Songs of the soil |url=http://www.frontline.in/arts-and-culture/cinema/songs-of-the-soil/article6100786.ece#test |access-date=2016-12-06 |newspaper=Frontline}}&lt;/ref&gt; == List of films for which Kalyanasundaram wrote lyrics == #''[[Maheswari (film)|Maheswari (1955)]]'' #''[[Paditha Penn]] (1956)'' #''[[Pasavalai|Pasavalai (1956)]]'' #''[[Marma Veeran]] (1956)'' #''[[Kula Deivam (1956 film)|Kula Dheivam (1956)]]'' #''[[Paasavalai]] (1956)'' #''[[Rangoon Radha]] (1956)'' #''[[Chakravarthi Thirumagal]] (1957)'' #''[[Makkalai Petra Magarasi]] (1957)'' #''[[Allavuddin Adbhuta Deepam|Allavudeenum Arputha Vilakkum (1957)]]'' #''[[Karpukkarasi]] (1957)'' #''[[Soubhagyavathi|Sowbagyawathi (1957)]]'' #''[[Aaravalli]] (1957)'' #''[[Ambikapathy (1957 film)|Ambikapathy (1957)]]'' #''[[Mahadhevi]] (1957)'' #''[[Pudhaiyal]] (1957)'' #''[[Kanniyin Sabatham]] (1958)'' #''[[Uthama Puthiran (1958 film)|Uthama Puthiran (1958)]]'' #''[[Pillai Kaniyamudhu]] (1958)'' #''[[Petra Maganai Vitra Annai]] (1958)'' #''[[Thedi Vandha Selvam]] (1958)'' #''[[Thirumanam]] (1958)'' #''[[Nadodi Mannan]] (1958)'' #''[[Naan Valartha Thangai]] (1958)'' #''[[Anbu Engey]] (1958)'' #''[[Pathi Bakthi]] (1958)'' #''[[Thanga Padhumai]] (1959)'' #''[[Pandithevan]] (1959)'' #''[[Nalla Theerpu]] (1959)'' #''[[Kalyana Parisu]] (1959)'' #''[[Kalyanikku Kalyanam]] (1959)'' #''[[Pudhumai Penn (1959 film)|Pudhumai Penn (1959)]]'' #''[[Vaazha Vaitha Deivam]] (1959)'' #Ulagam Sirikirathu ''(1959)'' #''[[Aval Yaar]] (1959)'' #''[[Bhaaga Pirivinai]] (1959)'' #''[[Kan Thiranthathu]] (1959)'' #''[[Amudhavalli]]'' (1959) #''[[Thalai Koduthaan Thambi]] (1959)'' #''Ponn Vilaiyum Boomi (1959)'' #''[[Kalaivaanan]] (1959)'' #''[[Irumbu Thirai (1960 film)|Irumbu Thirai]] (1960)'' #''Rathinapuri Ilavarasi (1960)'' #''Mahalakshmi (1960)'' #Sangili Devan ''(1960)'' #''[[Ellorum Innaattu Mannar]] (1960)'' #''[[Ondrupattal Undu Vazhvu]] (1960)'' #''[[Aalukkoru Veedu]] (1960)'' #''[[Paadhai Theriyudhu Paar]] (1960)'' #''[[Veerakkanal (1960 film)|Veerakkanal]] (1960'') #''[[Arasilangkumari]] (1961)'' #''[[Punar Jenmam]] (1961)'' #''[[Thirudadhe]] (1961)'' #''[[Kumara Raja (1961 film)|Kumara Raja]] (1961)'' #''[[Vikramaadhithan]] (1962)'' #''[[Ethaiyum Thangum Ithaiyam]] (1962)'' #''[[Kalai Arasi]] (1963)'' #''[[Maganey Kel]] (1965)''&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.pattukkottaiyar.com/site/?p=744|title=» Blog Archive » பாடல் வெளியான படங்கள்|website=www.pattukkottaiyar.com|access-date=2018-01-20}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Legacy == The first compilation of Kalyanasundaram's songs appeared in 1965 in printed form. Comparative studies and criticism have also been published in the form of books by several authors, such as Paa. Udayakumar, Ki. Sembiyan, [[Solomon Pappaiah]], Irakuladasan, M. P. Manivel, Pandian, Paa. Veeramani and others.{{citation needed|date=December 2011}} Tamil Nadu Murpokku Ezhuthalar Sangam, brought out souvenirs on Pattukkottaiyaar's 50th, 56th and 60th birthdays. A bronze statue was unveiled at a busy junction in Pattukkottai town and a special souvenir was released on the statue unveiling ceremony in 1995.{{citation needed|date=December 2011}}. The government of India brought out a souvenir on the occasion of the Silver Jubilee of India's Independence recognizing Mahakavi Subramaniya Bharathi, Pavendhar Bharathidasan and Makkal Kavignar Pattukkottai Kalyanasundaram as the three foremost Tamil poets of the 20th century. In 1981, the Chief Minister of Tamilnadu, M. G. Ramachandran conferred posthumously the prestigious Bharathidasan Award to Pattukkottaiyaar.{{citation needed|date=December 2011}} Later in 1993,the then Chief Minister Jayalalithaa declared nationalization of Pattukkottaiyaar's literary works.{{citation needed|date=December 2011}} In 2000, a memorial structure, Pattukkottai Kalyanasundaram Manimandapam, was erected in Pattukkottai and was inaugurated by the then Chief Minister Muthuvel Karunanidhi.{{citation needed|date=December 2011}} == References == {{Reflist}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Kalyanasundaram, Pattukkottai}} &lt;!--- Categories ---&gt; [[Category:1930 births]] [[Category:1959 deaths]] [[Category:Tamil film poets]] [[Category:20th-century Indian composers]] [[Category:20th-century Indian musicians]]</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Document_camera&diff=1259836963</id> <title>Document camera</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Document_camera&diff=1259836963"/> <updated>2024-11-27T09:46:40Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: Reverted edit by Israrkhan32 (talk) to last version by Mister Onion <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Real-time image capture devices for displaying an object to a large audience}} {{Multiple issues| {{more citations needed|date=November 2011}} {{peacock|date=November 2011}} {{cleanup|date=May 2011}} }} '''Document [[Camera|cameras]]''', also known as '''visual presenters''', '''visualizers''', '''digital overheads''', or '''docucams''', are [[Image resolution|high-resolution]] real-time [[image]] capture devices used to display an object to a large audience, such as in a [[classroom]] or a [[lecture hall]]. They can also serve as replacements for image scanners. Similar to [[opaque projector]]s, document cameras can [[Magnification|magnify]] and project the images of actual, [[Solid geometry|three-dimensional objects]], as well as [[Transparency (projection)|transparencies]].&lt;ref name=Everhart&gt;{{Citation |last1=Everhart |first1=N. L. |last2= Everhart |first2= H.|year=2000 |title=Big: When it Comes to Enlarging Electronic Images, There's Nothing Like a Data Projector |journal=School Library Journal |volume=46 |issue=6 |pages=46–49}}&lt;/ref&gt; To operate a document camera, a [[webcam]] is mounted on arms, allowing them to be positioned over a page. The camera connects to a [[projector]] or similar video streaming system, enabling a presenter to write on a sheet of paper or display a two- or three-dimensional object while the audience watches. Larger objects, for instance, can be positioned in front of the camera, which can then be rotated as needed. Alternatively, a ceiling-mounted document camera can create a larger working area. ==Uses== Typical uses include: * In a lecture hall or classroom * Presentation of material in conferences, meetings, and training sessions * [[Videoconferencing]] and [[telepresence]] * Presentation of evidence in courtrooms * Various medical applications ([[telemedicine]], [[telepathology]], display of [[radiology]] images) Document cameras replaced [[epidiascope]]s and [[overhead projector]]s, which were formerly used for this purpose. By means of the zoom feature, a document camera can enlarge the small print in books and project a printed page as if it were a traditional transparency. Document cameras do not require the lights to be dimmed in the room they are used in, contrary to what overhead projectors require to be visible.&lt;ref name=Everhart/&gt; Most document cameras can also send a [[video signal]] to a computer via a [[USB|USB cable]]. Sometimes document cameras are connected to an [[interactive whiteboard]] instead of a standard screen. == History == [[File:Video Loop 1974.jpg|thumb|Video Lupe 1974, manufactured by Wolf Audio Visuals - document camera prototype model]] [[File:Video Loop (Wolf Audio Visuals) AV installation c.1975.jpg|thumb|A Video Lupe AV installation (1975) prototype document camera]] [[File:ELMO releases first Visualiser ( Document Camera-Visual Presenter).gif|thumb|Elmo releases its first Visualiser EV-308]] Document cameras were developed to meet increased demand for the ability to project and present original documents, plans, drawings, and objects directly rather than necessitating the prior preparation required for their use as part of an overhead projector-based presentation. The first Visualizer/Document camera was developed by the companies [[WolfVision]] and [[Elmo (company)|Elmo]] and was launched at the [[photokina 1988|Photokina]] Trade Fair in 1988.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.wolfvision.com/visualizer/index.php/en/company-1/history|title = Presentation, Collaboration &amp; Visualizer Systems}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal | title = Visual Presenter with 8-Power Zoom Lens | journal = New Technology Japan | volume = 16 | pages = 37 | publisher = Japan External Trade Organization, Machinery and Technology Dept | date = 1988 | url = https://books.google.com/books?id=585VAAAAMAAJ&amp;q=%22ELMO%22 | accessdate = 2014-04-21}}&lt;/ref&gt; The widespread use of computers, projectors, and popular presentation programs such as [[Microsoft PowerPoint]] in meeting rooms meant that overhead projectors became less frequently used. The first attempts and prototypes were mostly simple [[Video camera|video cameras]] on a copystand. During the mid-1970s, these were assembled and equipped with additional lighting to provide a consistent quality of the projected image, as well as enable use in a darkened room. Toward the end of the 1990s, progressive scan cameras were introduced. Many visualizers available on the market today are capable of an output of at least 30 frames per second. ==Technology== The design and specification of a document camera are a combination of several different technologies. The quality of the recorded image is dependent on the primary components, which are: optics, camera, lighting system, and [[motherboard]] with appropriate firmware ([[software]]). The finished product is then realized by the production of different mechanical designs by individual manufacturers. Some document cameras offer [[HDMI]] output, audio/video recording, and Wi-Fi connectivity. === Optics === Optics are one of the most critical components relating to image quality, and the quality of the optical system used will largely depend on the planned cost of the device. Simple or highly complex optical systems can be used, which can differ significantly in quality and size. The iris or aperture is another important component of the optics. The iris controls and regulates the amount of light that passes through the lens onto the image sensor. A lens will focus on exactly one point of an object to be imaged onto the sensor. However, there is also an area in front of and behind the point of focus that will be perceived as being in sharp focus by the human eye. This is called the [[depth of field]], and it is dependent upon the size of the iris or aperture. The smaller the aperture, the greater the depth of field. === Camera === Progressive scan cameras use either [[Charge-coupled device|CCD sensors]] or [[Active-pixel sensor|CMOS sensors]]. The general advantage of progressive scanning over the interlaced method is the much higher resolution. A progressive scan camera captures all scan lines at the same time, whereas an interlaced camera uses alternating sets of lines. Image sensors provide only monochrome images. With a 1-chip camera, color information can be obtained through the use of color filters over each pixel. With 1-chip cameras, the [[Bayer filter]] is very commonly used. Red, green and blue filters are arranged in a pattern, where the number of green pixels is twice as large as that of the blue or red; thus, the higher sensitivity and resolution of the human eye is replicated. To get a color image, different algorithms are then used to interpolate the missing color information. A [[Three-CCD camera|3CCD camera]] module is another way to produce color images. A prism is used to split white light into its red, green, blue components, and a separate sensor is then used for each color. This complex camera technology is used in 3-chip cameras and allows for excellent color reproduction at very high resolutions. Modern camera systems used in a document camera are able to provide high-resolution color images at 30 frames per second. In a 3-chip camera, the measured resolution may be up to 1500 lines. In addition, the image can be adapted to fit common display aspect ratios of 4:3, 16:9, and 16:10. === Lighting system === Lighting is an essential part of a document camera. To ensure good color rendition, the lighting system to illuminate the image capture area should be uniform. * The greater the light intensity, the more independent the document camera is from ambient light sources. * Using powerful lighting systems enables smaller apertures to be used, and this, in turn, provides a significant increase in the depth of field that can be achieved by the document camera. * Also, the higher the quality of the light source, the more light will reach the camera sensor, which results in less noticeable noise; therefore, the quality of the image will not be degraded. Some document camera models integrate additional functionality into the light system, such as a synchronized light field that indicates to the user at all times, by way of an illuminated image capture area or laser markers, the size and position of the imaging area, which adjusts simultaneously as the lens zooms in or out. === Motherboard and firmware === The [[motherboard]] plays an important role in [[image processing]] and it has a major influence on the quality of the eventual image that is produced. Larger and larger resolutions and high [[refresh rate]]s generate large amounts of data that must be processed in real time. Document cameras have various sophisticated automated systems designed to make the user experience as easy as possible. Permanent autofocus detection, for example, automatically adjusts the focus settings when a new object is displayed, with no need for user intervention. Other important features include automatic auto iris, auto exposure, white balance, and automatic control gain. Modern motherboards have a variety of connections to ensure flexibility of use. In addition to [[HDMI]], [[Digital Visual Interface|DVI]] and [[Video Graphics Array|VGA]] ports for connecting to displays, (projectors, monitors and video conferencing systems) there are also several interfaces provided to facilitate connection to a computer or interactive whiteboard. These interfaces are most commonly [[Universal Serial Bus|USB]], Network (LAN) and serial. In addition, an external PC or laptop can be connected to the document camera to allow for switching between a [[Microsoft PowerPoint|Power Point]] presentation and a live demonstration. Some models can also handle external storage devices and play files directly from a [[USB flash drive]], or save images taken during the presentation onto it. Some document camera manufacturers also provide for regular [[firmware]] upgrades. ==Document camera types== Document cameras are generally divided into three groups: * Portable: Smaller and lightweight models. * Desktop: Larger, sturdier and more stable units. * Visualizers: Ceiling-mounted above a tabletop or podium. === Portable and desktop models === Portable and desktop models allow a working environment similar to an overhead projector. Many document camera users appreciate the added flexibility regarding the variety of objects that can be displayed to an audience. Portable devices can be used in multiple locations without requiring any prior installation. === Ceiling models === [[File:App03 telepresence 01 with light.jpg|thumb|Ceiling visualizer in use in a typical telepresence installation.]] Ceiling-mounted document cameras/visualizers are a variation from the traditional desktop models and allow for larger objects to be displayed. There is no desktop technical equipment to restrict the views of the speaker and audience, as the technology is installed unobtrusively in the ceiling. Ceiling models are often used to support [[videoconferencing]] or [[telepresence]] systems to further enhance the immersive experience for participants. === Document camera scanners === [[File:SilverCreations - model &quot;sceyeX&quot; 10MP Document Scanner 03-2013.jpg|thumb|SceyeX document camera]] Document cameras have also been used as replacements for [[image scanner]]s.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web | last=Juniper | first=Adam | date=April 11, 2024 | url=https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/buying-guides/best-document-camera | title=Best document camera in 2024: which visualizer is the right one for you? | work=Digital Camera World | publisher=Future Publishing}}&lt;/ref&gt; Capturing images on document cameras differs from that of flatbed and automatic document feeder scanners in that there are no moving parts required to scan the object. Conventionally either the illumination/reflector rod inside the scanner must be moved over the document (such as for a flatbed scanner), or the document must be passed over the rod (such as for feeder scanners) in order to produce a scan of a whole image. Document cameras capture the whole document or object in one step, usually instantly. Typically, documents are placed on a flat surface, usually the office desk, underneath the capture area of the document camera. The process of whole-surface-at-once capturing has the benefit of increasing reaction time for the workflow of scanning. After being captured, the images are usually processed through [[software]] that may enhance the image and perform such tasks like automatically rotating, cropping, and straightening them.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=sceye® - an innovative document scanner for the professional desktop.|url=http://graphics.kodak.com/docimaging/GB/en/products/document_scanners/document_cameras/sceyex/index.htm?_requestid=3705|publisher=Kodak|access-date=6 March 2013|url-status=dead|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130518075034/http://graphics.kodak.com/docimaging/GB/en/products/document_scanners/document_cameras/sceyex/index.htm?_requestid=3705|archive-date=18 May 2013}}&lt;/ref&gt; The documents or objects being scanned are not required to make contact with the document camera, increasing the flexibility of the types of documents that can be checked. Objects that have previously been difficult to scan on conventional scanners can now do so with one device. This includes, in particular, documents of varying sizes and shapes, stapled, in folders, bent, or crumpled, which may get jammed in a feed scanner. Other objects include books, magazines, receipts, letters, tickets, etc. No moving parts can also remove the need for maintenance, a consideration in the [[total cost of ownership]], which includes the continuing operational costs of scanners. Increased reaction time whilst scanning also has benefits in the realm of context-scanning. ADF scanners, whilst very fast and very good at batch scanning, also require pre and post-processing of the documents. Document cameras can be integrated directly into a [[workflow]] or process, for example, a teller at a bank. The document is scanned directly in the context of the customer, in which it is to be placed or used. Reaction time is an advantage in these situations. Document cameras usually also require a small amount of space and are often portable.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Why should you choose sceye?|url=http://www.sceye.eu/en/product/why-choose-sceye|publisher=SilverCreations Ag|access-date=1 March 2013}}&lt;/ref&gt; While scanning with document cameras may have a quick reaction time, large batch scanning of even and unstapled documents is more efficient with an ADF scanner. This kind of technology faces challenges regarding external factors (such as lighting) that may influence the scan results. How these issues are resolved firmly depends on the sophistication of the product and how it deals with these issues. == See also == * [[Planetary scanner]] == References == {{reflist}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Document Camera}} [[Category:Cameras]]</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Israrkhan32&diff=1259836881</id> <title>User talk:Israrkhan32</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Israrkhan32&diff=1259836881"/> <updated>2024-11-27T09:45:25Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for using Wikipedia for spam purposes. <hr /> <div>== November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;You have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing for adding [[Wikipedia:Spam|spam]] links. Persistent spammers will have their websites [[Wikipedia:Spam blacklist|blacklisted]] from Wikipedia and potentially penalized by search engines. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:45, 27 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;[[Category:Wikipedians who are indefinitely blocked for advertising|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;!-- Template:uw-sblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Closed-circuit_television&diff=1259836756</id> <title>Closed-circuit television</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Closed-circuit_television&diff=1259836756"/> <updated>2024-11-27T09:44:22Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: Reverted edit by Israrkhan32 (talk) to last version by ArglebargleIV <hr /> <div>{{short description|Use of video cameras to transmit a signal to a specific place on a limited set of monitors}} {{redirect|CCTV|the broadcasting company in China|China Central Television|other uses|CCTV (disambiguation)}} {{Distinguish|Closed captioning}} {{Use dmy dates|date=April 2019}} [[File:Three Surveillance cameras.jpg|thumb|Surveillance cameras on the corner of a building]] [[File:Cámara CCTV.jpg|thumb|Surveillance camera in a residential community]] '''Closed-circuit television''' ('''CCTV'''), also known as '''video surveillance''',&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|editor1-last=Kumar|editor1-first=Vikas|editor2-last=Svensson|editor2-first=Jakob|title=Promoting Social Change and Democracy Through Information Technology|date=2015|publisher=IGI Global|isbn=9781466685031|page=75|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=jkdLCgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA75}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last1=Dempsey|first1=John S.|title=Introduction to private security|date=2008|publisher=Thomson Wadsworth|location=Belmont, CA|isbn=9780534558734|page=78|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=qQo7oDMSVXgC&amp;pg=PA78}}&lt;/ref&gt; is the use of [[closed-circuit television camera]]s to transmit a signal to a specific place, on a limited set of monitors. It differs from [[broadcast television]] in that the signal is not openly transmitted, though it may employ point-to-point, point-to-multipoint (P2MP), or [[Mesh networking|mesh]] wired or [[Wireless|wireless links]]. Even though almost all video cameras fit this definition, the term is most often applied to those used for [[surveillance]] in areas that require additional security or ongoing monitoring ([[videotelephony]] is seldom called &quot;CCTV&quot;&lt;ref&gt;Verman, Romesh. [https://books.google.com/books?id=1VUU-eRAObAC Distance Education In Technological Age], Anmol Publications Pvt. Ltd., 2005, pp.166, {{ISBN|81-261-2210-2}}, {{ISBN|978-81-261-2210-3}}.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;&quot;Distance education in Asia and the Pacific: Proceedings Of The Regional Seminar On Distance Education, 26 November – 3 December 1986&quot;, Asian Development Bank, Bangkok, Thailand, Volume 2, 1987&lt;/ref&gt;). Surveillance of the public using CCTV is common in many areas around the world. Video surveillance has generated significant debate about balancing its use with individuals' [[right to privacy]] even when in public.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=What's wrong with public video surveillance?|url=https://www.aclu.org/other/whats-wrong-public-video-surveillance|publisher=ACLU|access-date=5 January 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Surveillance Cameras and the Right to Privacy|url=http://www.cbsnews.com/news/surveillance-cameras-and-the-right-to-privacy/|access-date=5 January 2017|work=CBS News|date=13 August 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Best PoE Security Camera System|url=https://top10reviewss.com/best-poe-security-camera-system-reviews/|access-date=5 January 2017|work=CBS News|date=9 November 2019|archive-date=28 January 2022|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220128025924/https://top10reviewss.com/best-poe-security-camera-system-reviews/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; In [[Factory|industrial plants]], CCTV equipment may be used to observe parts of a process from a central [[control room]], especially if the environments observed are dangerous or inaccessible to humans. CCTV systems may operate continuously or only as required to monitor a particular event. A more advanced form of CCTV, using [[digital video recorder]]s (DVRs), provides recording for possibly many years, with a variety of quality and performance options and extra features (such as [[motion detection]] and email alerts). More recently, decentralized [[IP camera]]s, perhaps equipped with megapixel sensors, support recording directly to [[network-attached storage]] devices, or internal flash for completely stand-alone operation. The deployment of this technology has facilitated significant growth in state surveillance, a substantial rise in the methods of advanced social monitoring and control, and a host of crime prevention measures throughout the world.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|title=Encyclopedia of the City|last=Caves|first=R. W.|publisher=Routledge|year=2004|pages=114}}&lt;/ref&gt; == History == [[File:THE CENTRAL POLICE CONTROL STATION, MANNED 24 HOURS A DAY CONTROLS ALL TRAFFIC LIGHTS, RECEIVES REMOTE TV INPUTS FROM... - NARA - 551905.tif|thumb|Closed circuit TV monitoring at the Central Police Control Station, Munich, Germany in 1973]] [[File:Cameratoezichtcentrale politie nederland.jpg|thumb|Desk in one of the regional control-rooms of the National Police in the Netherlands in 2017]] [[File:CCTV control room monitor wall.jpg|thumb|CCTV control-room monitor wall for 176 open-street cameras in 2017]] An early [[Mechanical television|mechanical]] CCTV system was developed in June 1927 by Russian physicist [[Léon Theremin]]&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite book|title=Theremin : ether music and espionage|last=Glinsky, Albert.|date=2000|publisher=University of Illinois Press|isbn=0252025822|location=Urbana|pages=46–47|oclc=43286443}}&lt;/ref&gt; (cf. [[Television in the Soviet Union]]). Originally requested by CTO (the Soviet [[Council of Labor and Defense]]), the system consisted of a manually-operated scanning-transmitting camera and wireless shortwave transmitter and receiver, with a resolution of a hundred lines. Having been commandeered by [[Kliment Voroshilov]], Theremin's CCTV system was demonstrated to [[Joseph Stalin]], [[Semyon Budyonny]], and [[Sergo Ordzhonikidze]], and subsequently installed in the courtyard of the [[Moscow Kremlin]] to monitor approaching visitors.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; Another early CCTV system was installed by [[Siemens|Siemens AG]] at [[Test Stand VII]] in [[Peenemünde]], Nazi Germany in 1942, for observing the launch of [[V-2 rocket]]s.&lt;ref name=&quot;dornberger&quot;&gt;[[Walter Dornberger|Dornberger, Walter]]: ''V-2'', [[Ballantine Books]] 1954, ASIN: B000P6L1ES, page 14.&lt;/ref&gt; In the United States, the first commercial closed-circuit television system became available in 1949 from [[Remington Rand]] and designed by [[CBS Laboratories]], called &quot;Vericon&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;[https://www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/nyt_8-16-50_agreement_is_seen_to_spur_color_tv.pdf '' &quot;Agreement Seen Spur to Color TV&quot; '', August 16, 1950,, New York Times]&lt;/ref&gt; Vericon was advertised as not requiring a government permit, due to the system using cabled connections between camera and monitor rather than over-the-air transmission.&lt;ref&gt;[https://books.google.com/books?id=pCQDAAAAMBAJ&amp;pg=PA179 '' &quot;Television Rides Wires&quot; '', February 1949, Popular Science] small article, bottom of page 179&lt;/ref&gt; === Technology === The earliest video surveillance systems involved constant monitoring because there was no way to record and store information. The development of reel-to-reel media enabled the recording of surveillance footage. These systems required magnetic tapes to be changed manually, which was a time-consuming, expensive and unreliable process, with the operator having to manually thread the tape from the tape reel through the recorder onto a take-up reel. Due to these shortcomings, video surveillance was not widespread. [[VCR]] technology became available in the 1970s, making it easier to record and erase information, and the use of video surveillance became more common.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=DaQY8CrmqFcC&amp;pg=PA276 |title=CCTV Surveillance|isbn=9780080468181|last1=Kruegle|first1=Herman|date=15 March 2011|publisher=Elsevier }}&lt;/ref&gt; During the 1990s, digital [[multiplexing]] was developed, allowing several cameras to record at once, as well as [[Time lapse photography|time lapse]] and motion-only recording. This saved time and money which then led to an increase in the use of CCTV.&lt;ref name=&quot;wecusurveillance.com&quot;/&gt; Recently CCTV technology has been enhanced with a shift toward Internet-based products and systems, and other technological developments.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web | url=http://fennoturvapalvelut.com/ | title=Internet based CCTV on cloud services|language=fi|date=27 March 2015|publisher=fennoturvapalvelut}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Application === Early CCTV systems were installed in central London by the Metropolitan Police between 1960 and 1965.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://professionalsecurity.co.uk/news/case-studies/polices-1960s-cctv-experiments-part-1/ |title=Police's 1960s CCTV experiments, part 1 |website=Professional Security Magazine Online |date=2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; By 1963, CCTV was being used in Munich to monitor traffic.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://professionalsecurity.co.uk/news/case-studies/polices-1960s-cctv-experiments-part-2/ |title=Police's 1960s CCTV experiments, part 2 |website=Professional Security Magazine Online |date=2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Closed-circuit television was used as a form of [[pay-per-view]] [[theatre television]] for sports such as [[professional boxing]] and [[professional wrestling]], and from 1964 through 1970, the [[Indianapolis 500]] automobile race. Boxing telecasts were broadcast live to a select number of venues, mostly theaters, with arenas, stadiums, schools, and convention centers also being less often used venues, where viewers paid for tickets to watch the fight live.&lt;ref name=&quot;Ezra&quot;&gt;{{cite book|last=Ezra|first=Michael|title=The Economic Civil Rights Movement: African Americans and the Struggle for Economic Power|date=2013|publisher=[[Routledge]]|isbn=9781136274756|page=105|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=DL41bsCigZcC&amp;pg=PA105|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;bloodyelbow&quot;&gt;{{cite news|title=History of Prizefighting's Biggest Money Fights|url=https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2017/8/24/16170894/history-of-prizefightings-biggest-money-fights-boxing-mma-ufc|work=[[Bloody Elbow]]|agency=[[SB Nation]]|date=24 August 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; The first fight with a closed-circuit telecast was [[Joe Louis]] vs. [[Jersey Joe Walcott|Joe Walcott]] in 1948.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|title=Television|date=1965|publisher=Frederick A. Kugel Company|page=78|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=it0aAQAAMAAJ&amp;q=Louis+Walcott|language=en|quote=Teleprompter's main-spring, Irving B. Kahn (he's chairman of the board and president), had a taste of closed circuit operations as early as 1948. That summer, Kahn, then a vice president of 20th Century-Fox, negotiated what was probably the first inter-city closed circuit telecast in history, a pickup of the Joe Louis-Joe Walcott fight.}}&lt;/ref&gt; Closed-circuit telecasts peaked in popularity with [[Muhammad Ali]] in the 1960s and 1970s,&lt;ref name=&quot;Ezra&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;bloodyelbow&quot; /&gt; with &quot;[[The Rumble in the Jungle]]&quot; fight drawing 50{{nbsp}}million CCTV viewers worldwide in 1974,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Zaire's fight promotion opens new gold mines|url=https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/28336306/|work=[[The Morning Herald]]|date=18 November 1974|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; and the &quot;[[Thrilla in Manila]]&quot; drawing 100{{nbsp}}million CCTV viewers worldwide in 1975.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal|title=Karriem Allah|journal=[[Black Belt (magazine)|Black Belt]]|date=1976|page=35|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=XtUDAAAAMBAJ&amp;pg=PA35|publisher=Active Interest Media, Inc.|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1985, the [[WrestleMania I]] professional wrestling show was seen by over one million viewers with this scheme.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Wrestlemania In Photographs: 1-10|url=https://www.sportskeeda.com/wwe/wrestlemania-in-photographs-1-10|work=Sportskeeda|date=1 April 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; As late as 1996, the [[Julio César Chávez vs. Oscar De La Hoya]] boxing fight had 750,000 viewers.&lt;ref&gt;[https://www.chicagotribune.com/1996/06/07/chavez-de-la-hoya-fight-is-a-bout-about-contrasts/ Chavez-De La Hoya Fight Is A Bout About Contrasts], Chicago Tribune article, 1996-06-07, Retrieved on 2015-02-23&lt;/ref&gt; Although closed-circuit television was gradually replaced by [[pay-per-view]] home [[cable television]] in the 1980s and 1990s, it is still in use today for most awards shows and other events that are transmitted live to most venues but do not air as such on network television, and later re-edited for broadcast.&lt;ref name=&quot;bloodyelbow&quot; /&gt; In September 1968, [[Olean, New York]] was the first city in the United States to install CCTV video cameras along its main business street in an effort to fight crime.&lt;ref name=&quot;Robb, Gary C. 1979 pg. 571-602&quot;&gt;[Robb, Gary C. (1979) &quot;Police Use of CCTV Surveillance: Constitutional Implications and Proposed Regulations&quot; University of Michigan Journal of Law Reform. pg. 572]&lt;/ref&gt; [[Marie Van Brittan Brown]] received a patent for the design of a CCTV-based home security system in 1969. (''{{US patent|3482037}}''). Another early appearance was in 1973 in [[Times Square]] in [[New York City]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Yesil, Bilge&quot;&gt;[Yesil, Bilge. (2006) &quot;Watching Ourselves&quot; Cultural Studies. Vol 20(4-5) pp. 400-416]&lt;/ref&gt; The NYPD installed it to deter crime in the area; however, crime rates did not appear to drop much due to the cameras.&lt;ref name=&quot;Yesil, Bilge&quot;/&gt; Nevertheless, during the 1980s video surveillance began to spread across the country specifically targeting public areas.&lt;ref name=&quot;wecusurveillance.com&quot;&gt;Roberts, Lucy. &quot;[http://www.wecusurveillance.com/cctvhistory History of Video Surveillance and CCTV] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20191221172303/http://www.wecusurveillance.com/cctvhistory |date=21 December 2019 }}&quot; We C U Surveillance Retrieved 2011-10-20&lt;/ref&gt; It was seen as a cheaper way to deter crime compared to increasing the size of the police departments.&lt;ref name=&quot;Yesil, Bilge&quot;/&gt; Some businesses as well, especially those that were prone to theft, began to use video surveillance.&lt;ref name=&quot;Yesil, Bilge&quot;/&gt; From the mid-1990s on, police departments across the country installed an increasing number of cameras in various public spaces including housing projects, schools and public parks.&lt;ref name=&quot;Yesil, Bilge&quot;/&gt; CCTV later became common in banks and stores to discourage theft, by recording evidence of criminal activity. In 1997, 3,100 CCTV systems were installed in public housing and residential areas in New York City.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|url=https://www.nyclu.org/sites/default/files/publications/nyclu_pub_whos_watching.pdf |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20221009/https://www.nyclu.org/sites/default/files/publications/nyclu_pub_whos_watching.pdf |archive-date=2022-10-09 |url-status=live|title=Who's Watching? Video Camera Surveillance in New York City and the Need for Public Oversight|year=2006|pages=5|access-date=January 30, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; Experiments in the UK during the 1970s and 1980s, including outdoor CCTV in [[Bournemouth]] in 1985, led to several larger trial programs later that decade. The first use by local government was in [[King's Lynn]], Norfolk, in 1987.&lt;ref name=wndc&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.west-norfolk.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=21697|title=CCTV|last=Staff|date=August 2007|publisher=Borough Council of King's Lynn &amp; West Norfolk|access-date=2008-12-14|url-status=dead|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20090523184010/http://www.west-norfolk.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=21697|archive-date=23 May 2009}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Uses == === Crime prevention === [[File:Bulger cctv.jpg|thumb|The two-year-old [[Murder of James Bulger|James Bulger]] being led away by his killers, recorded on shopping centre CCTV in 1993; this [[narrow-bandwidth television]] system had a low [[frame rate]]]] [[File:Video surveillance sign.jpg|thumb|Sign warning that premises are watched by CCTV cameras]] {{further|crime prevention|predictive policing}} A 2009 systematic review by researchers from [[Northeastern University]] and [[University of Cambridge]] used [[meta-analysis|meta-analytic]] techniques to pool the average effect of CCTV on crime across 41 different studies.&lt;ref name=&quot;Public&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url = http://journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/housing/surveillance-cameras-and-crime/ |title = Public Area CCTV and Crime Prevention: An Updated Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis |publisher = Journalist's Resource.org |date = 11 February 2014 }}&lt;/ref&gt; The studies included in the meta-analysis used [[quasi-experiment|quasi-experimental evaluation designs]] that involve before-and-after measures of crime in experimental and control areas.&lt;ref name=&quot;Public&quot;/&gt; However, several researchers have pointed to methodological problems associated with this research literature. First, researchers have argued that the British car park studies included in the meta-analysis cannot accurately control for the fact that CCTV was introduced simultaneously with a range of other security-related measures.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|title = The economics of subjective security and camera surveillance|url = https://wwz.unibas.ch/fileadmin/wwz/redaktion/wipo/Alois_Stutzer/Zehnder_B-099.pdf |date = 2009|last = Zehnder|journal = WWZ Research Paper|access-date = 27 October 2017|archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20170706060053/https://wwz.unibas.ch/fileadmin/wwz/redaktion/wipo/Alois_Stutzer/Zehnder_B-099.pdf|archive-date = 6 July 2017|url-status = dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; Second, some have noted that, in many of the studies, there may be issues with [[selection bias]] since the introduction of CCTV was potentially [[Endogeneity (econometrics)|endogenous]] to previous crime trends.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|title = The Effects of Surveillance Cameras on Crime: Evidence from the Stockholm Subway|journal = The Economic Journal|date = 1 November 2015|issn = 1468-0297|pages = F289–F305|volume = 125|issue = 588|doi = 10.1111/ecoj.12327|first = Mikael|last = Priks|s2cid = 96452277}}&lt;/ref&gt; In particular, the estimated effects may be biased if CCTV is introduced in response to crime trends.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|title = Is camera surveillance an effective measure of counterterrorism?|journal = Defence and Peace Economics|date = 2013|pages = 1–14|volume = 24|doi = 10.1080/10242694.2011.650481|last = Stutzer|doi-access = free}}&lt;/ref&gt; It has been argued that problems of selection bias and endogeneity can be addressed by stronger research designs such as [[randomized controlled trials]] and [[natural experiments]]. A 2017 review published in [[Journal of Scandinavian Studies in Criminology and Crime Prevention]] compiles seven studies that use such research designs. The studies included in the review found that CCTV reduced crime by 24–28% in public streets and urban subway stations. It also found that CCTV could decrease unruly behaviour in football stadiums and theft in supermarkets/mass merchant stores. However, there was no evidence of CCTV having desirable effects in parking facilities or suburban subway stations. Furthermore, the review indicates that CCTV is more effective in preventing property crimes than in violent crimes.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|title = Surveillance cameras and crime: a review of randomized and natural experiments|journal = Journal of Scandinavian Studies in Criminology and Crime Prevention|date = 2017|pages = 210–222|volume = 18|issue = 2| author = Gustav Alexandrie|doi = 10.1080/14043858.2017.1387410|s2cid = 149144413}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Alexis Navy Yard 012 1dsLQLVk7nY.jpg|thumb|left|Closed circuit television cameras captured the perpetrator of the [[Washington Navy Yard shooting]], Aaron Alexis, during his rampage]] Another question in the effectiveness of CCTV for policing is around uptime of the system; in 2013 City of Philadelphia Auditor found that the $15M system was operational only 32% of the time.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.viakoo.com/orphaned-video-system-in-philadelphia/|title=Orphaned Video System in Philadelphia?|date=May 2015|access-date=29 July 2015|archive-date=28 October 2017|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20171028042359/https://www.viakoo.com/orphaned-video-system-in-philadelphia/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; There is strong anecdotal evidence that CCTV aids in detection and conviction of offenders; for example, UK police forces routinely seek CCTV recordings after crimes.&lt;ref&gt;[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10512087/10484338Police-are-failing-to-recover-crucial-CCTV-footage-new-figures-suggest.html?fbHow&amp;goback=%2Egde_1889337_member_5817222616544473092 &quot;Police are failing to recover crucial CCTV footage, new figures suggest&quot;], The Daily Telegraph&lt;/ref&gt; Moreover, CCTV has played a crucial role in tracing the movements of suspects or victims and is widely regarded by anti-terrorist officers as a fundamental tool in tracking terrorist suspects. Large-scale CCTV installations have played a key part of the defenses against terrorism since the 1970s. Cameras have also been installed on [[public transport]] in the hope of deterring crime.&lt;ref&gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/3101016.stm &quot;CCTV to drive down cab attacks&quot;], BBC&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/4295859.stm &quot;Taxi CCTV cameras are installed&quot;], BBC&lt;/ref&gt; A more open question is whether most CCTV is cost-effective. While low-quality domestic kits are cheap, the professional installation and maintenance of high definition CCTV is expensive.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.allthings.com.au/Catalogue/cctv%20security%20surveillance%20ip%20network%20dome%20camera%20articles/Tip%20Sheet%205.pdf|title=National community Crime Prevention Programme|access-date=2016-03-30|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160229022046/http://www.allthings.com.au/Catalogue/cctv%20security%20surveillance%20ip%20network%20dome%20camera%20articles/Tip%20Sheet%205.pdf|archive-date=29 February 2016|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; Gill and Spriggs did a [[Cost-effectiveness analysis]] (CEA) of CCTV in crime prevention that showed little monetary saving with the installation of CCTV as most of the crimes prevented resulted in little monetary loss.&lt;ref name=&quot;Assessing&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/rdsolr1205.pdf|archive-url=http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/rdsolr1205.pdf|url-status=dead|archive-date=2011-02-18|title=Assessing the impact of CCTV|access-date=2011-10-16}}&lt;/ref&gt; Critics however noted that benefits of non-monetary value cannot be captured in a traditional Cost Effectiveness Analysis and were omitted from their study.&lt;ref name =&quot;Assessing&quot; /&gt; A 2008 Report by UK Police Chiefs concluded that only 3% of crimes were solved by CCTV.&lt;ref&gt;[http://forward-edge.net/the-big-question-are-cctv-cameras-a-waste-of-money-in-the-fight-against-crime-822079.html &quot;Are CCTV cameras a waste of money in the fight against crime?&quot;] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160304061337/http://www.forward-edge.net/the-big-question-are-cctv-cameras-a-waste-of-money-in-the-fight-against-crime-822079.html |date=4 March 2016 }} Forward Edge, 7 May 2008&lt;/ref&gt; In London, a [[Metropolitan Police]] report showed that in 2008 only one crime was solved per 1000 cameras.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |title=CCTV in the spotlight: one crime solved for every 1,000 cameras |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cctv-in-the-spotlight-one-crime-solved-for-every-1000-cameras-1776774.html|last=Hughe|first=Mark|date=25 August 2009|publisher=Independent News and Media Limited}}&lt;/ref&gt; In some cases CCTV cameras have become a target of attacks themselves.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/3676550.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/]&quot; BBC&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Omar Habhan Westgate attack.webp|thumb|235x235px|[[Omar Nabhan]], as seen on CCTV during the [[Westgate shopping mall attack]] that resulted in the deaths of 71 people. Authorities observed the attack via the cameras within the mall.]] Cities such as Manchester in the UK are using [[Digital video recorder|DVR]]-based technology to improve accessibility for crime prevention.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2070312.stm Digital CCTV Scheme Switches On],&quot; ''BBC''&lt;/ref&gt; In October 2009, an &quot;Internet Eyes&quot; website was announced which would pay members of the public to view CCTV camera images from their homes and report any crimes they witnessed. The site aimed to add &quot;more eyes&quot; to cameras which might be insufficiently monitored. Civil liberties campaigners criticized the idea as &quot;a distasteful and a worrying development&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8293784.stm Public to Monitor CCTV From Home], ''[[BBC]]''&lt;/ref&gt; In 2013, [[Oaxaca]] hired deaf police officers to [[lip reading|lip read]] conversations to uncover criminal conspiracies.&lt;ref&gt;[https://archive.today/20131121124759/http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/oaxacas-angels-of-silence-deaf-police-officers-see-crime-where-others-dont/article15520263/?service=mobile Angels of Silence see crime where others don't] Globe &amp; Mail, 20 November 2013&lt;/ref&gt; In Singapore, since 2012, thousands of CCTV cameras have helped deter loan sharks, nab litterbugs, and stop illegal parking, according to government figures.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/network-of-cctv-cameras-proving-effective|title=Network of CCTV cameras proving effective | publisher= straitstimes|access-date=2017-02-06|date=8 March 2016 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Russia has implemented a video surveillance system called 'Safe City', which has the capability to recognize facial features and moving objects, sending the data automatically to government authorities. However, the widespread tracking of individuals through video surveillance has raised significant privacy issues.&lt;ref&gt;Artificial intelligence in local government services: Public perceptions from Australia and Hong Kong, Government Information Quarterly, Volume 40, Issue 3, June 2023, 101833&lt;/ref&gt; ===Crime solving=== {{further|Criminal investigation}} CCTV can also be used to help solve crimes. In London alone, six crimes are solved each day on average using CCTV footage.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-12080487|title='Six crimes a day' solved by CCTV, Met says|work=BBC News |date=26 December 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Body worn === {{Main|Body worn video}} In recent years, the use of [[body worn video]] cameras has been introduced for a number of uses. For example, as a new form of surveillance in law enforcement, with cameras located on a police officer's chest or head.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last1=Bayley|first1=David H.|last2=Stenning|first2=Philip C.|title=Governing the Police: Experience in Six Democracies|date=2016|publisher=Transaction Publishers|isbn=978-1412862318|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=klW5CwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT100}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=Hung&gt;{{cite web|last1=Hung |last2=Babin |last3=Coberly |first1=Vivian |first2=Steven |first3=Jacqueline|title=A Market Survey on Body Worn Camera Technologies|url=https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/250381.pdf |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20221009/https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/250381.pdf |archive-date=2022-10-09 |url-status=live|website=The Department of Justice's National Institute of Justice|publisher=Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Traffic flow monitoring === ===Vehicle traffic=== {{Main|Traffic camera}} Many cities and [[motorway]] networks have extensive traffic-monitoring systems, using closed-circuit television to detect congestion and notice accidents.&lt;ref&gt;Motorway Cameras in England, http://www.motorwaycameras.co.uk&lt;/ref&gt;{{Unreliable source?|date=August 2013}} Many of these cameras however, are owned by private companies and transmit data to drivers' [[GPS]] systems. [[Highways England]] has a publicly owned CCTV network of over 3000 Pan-Tilt-Zoom cameras covering the British motorway and trunk road network. These cameras are primarily used to monitor traffic conditions and are not used as [[speed cameras]]. With the addition of fixed cameras for the [[active traffic management]] system, the number of cameras on the Highways England's CCTV network is likely to increase significantly over the next few years.&lt;ref&gt;Networx Security. &quot;[https://www.networxsecurity.org/members-area/glossary/c/cctv.html Closed Circuit Television].&quot; Retrieved 7 March 2019.&lt;/ref&gt; The [[London congestion charge]] is enforced by cameras positioned at the boundaries of and inside the congestion charge zone, which automatically read the number plates of vehicles that enter the zone. If the driver does not pay the charge then a fine will be imposed.&lt;ref&gt;Kablenet, The Register. &quot;[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/06/congestion_charge_tags/ TfL hands out contracts for congestion charge tags].&quot; 6 June 2008. Retrieved 7 March 2019.&lt;/ref&gt; Similar systems are being developed as a means of locating cars reported stolen.&lt;ref&gt;Rowena Coetsee, Bay Area News Group. &quot;[https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/08/11/new-surveillance-cameras-doing-their-job-antiochs-top-cop-says/ New surveillance cameras doing their job, Antioch's top cop says].&quot; 11 August 2017. Retrieved 8 March 2019.&lt;/ref&gt; Other surveillance cameras serve as [[traffic enforcement camera]]s.&lt;ref&gt;Prof. Eugene Volokh, The Wall Street Journal. &quot;[http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/cameras.htm Traffic Enforcement Cameras].&quot; 26 March 2002. Retrieved 8 March 2019.&lt;/ref&gt; ===Pedestrian traffic=== [[File:CCTV dome camera subway Rotterdam.jpg|thumb|upright|Dome camera in [[Rotterdam Centraal station|Rotterdam central metro station]]]] In [[Mecca]], CCTV cameras are used for monitoring (and thus [[Crowd control|managing]]) the flow of crowds.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2016/05/26/Saudi-Arabia-installs-new-security-cameras-in-Makkah|title=Saudi Arabia installs new security cameras in Makkah|date=26 May 2016|website=Al Arabiya English}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the Philippines, barangay San Antonio used CCTV cameras and artificial intelligence software to detect the [[Social distancing|formation of crowds]] during an [[Disease outbreak|outbreak of a disease]]. Security personnel were sent whenever a crowd formed at a particular location in the city.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://sovereignph.com/2020/03/12/pasig-village-well-on-its-way-to-becoming-smart-barangay/|title=Pasig village well on its way to becoming 'smart barangay'|date=12 March 2020|website=SovereignPH}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.topgear.com.ph/news/motoring-news/san-antonio-pasig-street-monitoring-system-a4354-20200327|title=AI-equipped CCTV cameras enable a barangay to monitor people out on the streets|website=www.topgear.com.ph}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.msn.com/en-ph/news/national/pasig-mayor-vico-sotto-turns-to-smart-cctv-to-enforce-social-distancing/|title=Pasig Mayor Vico Sotto turns to smart CCTV to enforce social distancing|website=[[MSN]] }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.gmanetwork.com/news/topstories/metro/731619/pasig-mayor-vico-sotto-turns-to-smart-cctv-to-enforce-social-distancing/story/|title=Pasig barangay turns to smart CCTV to enforce social distancing| archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20220107201859/https://www.gmanetwork.com/news/topstories/metro/731619/pasig-mayor-vico-sotto-turns-to-smart-cctv-to-enforce-social-distancing/story/ |location = Philippines| date = 27 March 2020 | archive-date = 7 January 2022 |website=GMA News Online}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Management of infection=== {{Further|Government by algorithm#Management of infection}} === Increasing safety and security in public transport === [[File:SISS VPU3400 8-channel 20080502.jpg|thumb|right|Digital Video Recorder for Public Transport]] On a [[One-man operation|driver-only operated]] train, CCTV cameras may allow the driver to confirm that people are clear of doors before closing them and starting the train.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite AV media|title=FCC Train Dispatch training video|date=25 March 2013|url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k9n6WVihu0| archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140630053044/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k9n6WVihu0| archive-date=2014-06-30 | url-status=dead|access-date=2018-07-26|via=[[YouTube]]}} (From 7:35 the video explains about DOO train dispatch anddescribes the use of CCTV at stations.)&lt;/ref&gt; A trial by [[Rotterdamse Elektrische Tram|RET]] in 2011 with [[Facial recognition system|facial recognition]] cameras mounted on trams made sure that people who were banned from them did not sneak on anyway.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2011/09/facial_recognition_cameras_to/|title=Facial recognition cameras to be installed on Rotterdam trams|date=11 September 2011}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Sporting events === Many sporting events in the United States use CCTV inside the venue, either to display on the stadium or arena's [[scoreboard]], or in the concourse or restroom areas to allow fans to view action outside the seating bowl. The cameras send the feed to a central control center where a producer selects feeds to send to the television monitors that fans can view. CCTV monitors for viewing the event by attendees are often placed in lounges, hallways, and restrooms. In a trial with CCTV cameras, football club fans no longer needed to identify themselves manually, but could pass freely after being authorized by the facial recognition system.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.heracles.nl/2019/03/26/doe-mee-aan-de-proef-met-gezichtsherkenning/|title=Doe mee aan de proef met gezichtsherkenning|date=26 March 2019|website=Heracles}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Employee monitoring === {{See also|Employee monitoring}} Organizations use CCTV to monitor the actions of workers. Every action is recorded as an information block with subtitles that explain the performed operation. This helps to track the actions of workers, especially when they are making critical financial transactions, such as correcting or cancelling of a sale, withdrawing money, or altering personal information. Actions which an employer may wish to monitor could include: * Scanning of goods, selection of goods, introduction of price and quantity; * Input and output of operators in the system when entering passwords; * Deleting operations and modifying existing documents; * Implementation of certain operations, such as financial statements or operations with cash; * Moving goods, revaluation scrapping and counting; * Control in the kitchen of fast food restaurants; * Change of settings, reports and other official functions. Each of these operations is transmitted with a description, allowing detailed monitoring of all actions of the operator. Some systems allow the user to search for a specific event by time of occurrence and text description, and perform statistical evaluation of operator behaviour. This allows the software to predict deviations from the standard workflow and record only anomalous behaviour.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.icaew.com/en/archive/library/subject-gateways/business-management/smes/small-business-update/2015-01/using-cctv-to-monitor-the-workplace|title=Using CCTV to monitor the workplace|publisher=icaew|access-date=2016-09-18|archive-date=14 October 2016|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161014052835/http://www.icaew.com/en/archive/library/subject-gateways/business-management/smes/small-business-update/2015-01/using-cctv-to-monitor-the-workplace|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Use in schools=== {{further|Video surveillance in schools}} [[File:Andover Tornado CCTV.webm|left|thumb|250x250px|Surveillance video of the [[2022 Andover tornado]] as it passed by a school. Several cameras in and outside of the building captured the event.]] In the United States, Britain, Canada,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.atl.org.uk/policy-and-campaigns/policy-posts/use-cctv-surveillance-schools?resetmyATL=true|title=Use of CCTV surveillance in schools|author=ATL|access-date=8 November 2016|publisher=ATL the education union|date=22 October 2013|archive-date=9 November 2016|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161109021738/https://www.atl.org.uk/policy-and-campaigns/policy-posts/use-cctv-surveillance-schools?resetmyATL=true|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; Australia&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/school-security-cctv-puts-bullies-on-pause/story-e6freuzi-1226311797645|title= School security CCTV puts bullies on pause | author= Bruce McDougall and Katherine Danks |access-date=8 November 2016|newspaper= The Daily Telegraph|date=28 March 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; and New Zealand, CCTV is widely used in schools due to its success in preventing [[bullying]], [[vandalism]], monitoring visitors and maintaining a record of evidence of a crime. There are some restrictions, cameras not being installed in areas where there is a &quot;reasonable [[expectation of privacy]]&quot;, such as bathrooms, gym locker areas, and private offices (unless consent by the office occupant is given). Cameras are generally acceptable in hallways, parking lots, front offices where students, employees, and parents come and go, gymnasiums, cafeterias, supply rooms, and classrooms. Some teachers object to the installation of cameras.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url = https://www.ncjrs.gov/school/ch2a_18.html/|title = Legal aspects of the use of video cameras in schools =|access-date = 25 March 2014|archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160215174520/https://www.ncjrs.gov/school/ch2a_18.html/|archive-date = 15 February 2016|url-status = dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; A study of high school students in Israeli schools shows that students' views on CCTV used in school are based on how they think of their teachers, school, and authorities.&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last1=Birnhack|first1=Michael D.|last2=Perry-Hazan|first2=Lotem|date=2020|title=School Surveillance in Context: High School Students' Perspectives on CCTV, Privacy, and Security|url=http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3587450|journal=SSRN Electronic Journal|doi=10.2139/ssrn.3587450|s2cid=234991261|issn=1556-5068}}&lt;/ref&gt; It also stated that most students do not want CCTV installed inside a classroom.&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot; /&gt; ===Use in private homes=== Many homeowners choose to install CCTV systems either inside or outside their own homes, sometimes both. CCTV cameras are an effective deterrent to potential intruders as their use increases the risk of identification through the camera footage.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Surette|first=Ray|title=The thinking eye: Pros and cons of second generation CCTV surveillance systems|journal=Policing: An International Journal of Police Strategies &amp; Management}}&lt;/ref&gt; If someone scouts through an affluent suburb seeking the easiest house to break into, having an obvious CCTV system, alarm or another security measure, makes the house appear to be a more difficult target so they will likely move on to the next house. Modern CCTV systems can be monitored through mobile phone apps which allows people to view live footage of their house from anywhere they have internet coverage. Some systems provide motion detection so when movement is detected, an alert can be sent to a phone.&lt;ref name=&quot;cnet&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last1=Wollerton |first1=Megan |title=Turn an old phone into a security camera in 3 steps. Here's how to do it |url=https://www.cnet.com/home/security/turn-old-phone-into-security-camera-in-3-steps-heres-how-android-iphone/ |website=cnet.com |publisher=Cnet |access-date=18 June 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Criminal use === Criminals may use surveillance cameras to monitor the public. For example, a hidden camera at an [[Automated Teller Machine|ATM]] can capture people's [[Personal Identification Number|PINs]] as they are entered, without their knowledge. The devices are small enough not to be noticed, and are placed where they can monitor the keypad of the machine as people enter their PINs. Images may be transmitted wirelessly to the criminal. Even lawful surveillance cameras sometimes have their data go into the hands of people who have no legal right to receive it.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.letelegramme.fr/france/benalla-trois-policiers-suspendus-pour-avoir-transmis-des-images-de-videosurveillance-20-07-2018-12032279.php|title=Benalla. Trois policiers suspendus pour avoir transmis des images de vidéosurveillance|date=20 July 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Use in shopping malls and retail stores === Theft is a huge concern for many department stores and shopping malls. CCTV helps to protect stores' assets, and ensures the safety of employees and customers.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.videosurveillance.com/retail-surveillance-systems.asp|title=Retail surveillance systems|website=videosurveillance.com|accessdate=18 July 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Counter-terrorism === {{further|War on terror}} Material collected by surveillance cameras has been used as a tool in post-event forensics to identify tactics, techniques, and perpetrators of [[terrorist attack]]s. Furthermore, there are various projects − such as [[INDECT]] − that aim to detect suspicious behaviours of individuals and crowds.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal|last1=Mould|first1=Nick|last2=Regens|first2=James L.|last3=Jensen|first3=Carl J.|last4=Edger|first4=David N.|title=Video surveillance and counterterrorism: the application of suspicious activity recognition in visual surveillance systems to counterterrorism|journal=Journal of Policing, Intelligence and Counter Terrorism|date=30 August 2014|volume=9|issue=2|pages=151–175|doi=10.1080/18335330.2014.940819|s2cid=62710484}}&lt;/ref&gt; It has been argued that terrorists will not be deterred by cameras, that terror attacks are not really the subject of the current use of video surveillance and that terrorists might even see it as an extra channel for [[propaganda]] and publication of their acts.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine|title=In the Petabyte Age of Surveillance, Software Polices|url=http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/security/how-to/a5776/surveillance-cameras-and-data/|magazine=Popular Mechanics|access-date=4 January 2017|date=10 May 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Mehr Videoüberwachung gegen Terroristen - WDR aktuell - Sendung - Video - Mediathek - WDR|url=http://www1.wdr.de/mediathek/video/sendungen/wdr-aktuell/video-mehr-videoueberwachung-gegen-terroristen-100.html|publisher=WDR|access-date=4 January 2017|date=26 October 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; In Germany calls for extended video surveillance by the country's main political parties, [[Social Democratic Party of Germany|SPD]], [[Christian Democratic Union of Germany|CDU]], and [[Christian Social Union in Bavaria|CSU]] have been dismissed as &quot;little more than a [[placebo]] for a subjective feeling of security&quot; by a member of the Left party.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Calls increase for sweeping surveillance after Berlin attack|url=http://www.dw.com/en/calls-increase-for-sweeping-surveillance-after-berlin-attack/a-36854715|publisher=Deutsche Welle|access-date=4 January 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Prevalence == [[File:Surveillance cameras mapped.png|thumb|left|A crowdsourced map of CCTV cameras near [[Grande Arche]] using [[OpenStreetMap]] data&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://osmcamera.tk/index.php?lat=48.89280064&amp;lon=2.2415328&amp;zoom=17&amp;layer=osm |title=The CCTV Map |website=osmcamera |author=khris78 |access-date=2 August 2014 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20141025180244/http://osmcamera.tk/index.php?lat=48.89280064&amp;lon=2.2415328&amp;zoom=17&amp;layer=osm |archive-date=25 October 2014 }}&lt;/ref&gt;]] [[File:SurveillanceCamera2.jpg|thumb|Surveillance camera mounted on the walls of Rosenbad, one of the Swedish's government buildings in central Stockholm, which houses the Prime Minister's office; one of the parliament's (Riksdagen) building can be seen in the background]] [[File:SurveillanceCamera4.jpg|thumb|upright|A surveillance camera, aimed at a public street (Kungsgatan) in Stockholm, Sweden, mounted on top of the pole]] [[File:UnitedNationsNewYork.JPG|thumb|right| The [[headquarters of the United Nations]] in New York, with cameras visible on the side of the [[United Nations General Assembly Building|UN General Assembly Building]]]] === Asia === About 65% of CCTV cameras in the world are installed in Asia.&lt;ref name=&quot;SDM2016&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.sdmmag.com/articles/92407-rise-of-surveillance-camera-installed-base-slows |website=SDM Magazine |title=Rise of Surveillance Camera Installed Base Slows|date=5 May 2016|access-date=5 January 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; In Asia, different human activities attracted the use of surveillance camera systems and services, including but not limited to business and related industries,{{citation needed|date=February 2016}}&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|last=Walton, Greg|title=China's Golden Shield: corporations and the development of surveillance technology in the People's Republic of China|publisher=Rights &amp; Democracy|year=2001}}&lt;/ref&gt; transportation,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.futuregov.asia/articles/australian-state-government-to-expand-cctv-use-across-transport-network|title=Australian state government to expand CCTV use across transport network|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150402091654/http://www.futuregov.asia/articles/australian-state-government-to-expand-cctv-use-across-transport-network|archive-date=2 April 2015|url-status=dead|access-date=2015-03-11}}&lt;/ref&gt; sports,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/early-doors/chinese-tv-station-cctv-provide--old-school--analysis-of-afc-asian-cup-match-133815624.html|title=Chinese TV station CCTV provide 'old school' analysis of AFC Asian Cup match|access-date=2015-03-11}}&lt;/ref&gt; and care for the environment.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web| last = Ng | first = Kelly|url=http://www.futuregov.asia/articles/4530-indian-state-government-uses-cctv-to-cut-forest-crimes|title=Indian state government uses CCTV to cut forest crimes|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20141011012135/http://www.futuregov.asia/articles/4530-indian-state-government-uses-cctv-to-cut-forest-crimes|date = 11 October 2014 |archive-date=11 October 2014|url-status=dead|access-date=2015-03-11}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2018, China was reported to have [[Mass surveillance in China|a huge surveillance network]] of over 170 million CCTV cameras with 400 million new cameras expected be installed in the next three years, many of which use facial recognition technology.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-43751276|title=Smart cameras catch man in 60,000 crowd|date=13 April 2018|work=BBC News|access-date=2018-04-13|language=en-GB}}&lt;/ref&gt; In [[Japan]], CCTV cameras are often referred to as &quot;surveillance cameras&quot; or &quot;security cameras&quot;. [[Nikkei Business Publications|Nikkei Business]] estimated that the total number of security cameras in Japan is approximately 5 million in 2018.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://business.nikkei.com/atcl/report/16/110800252/111200002/ |title=日本の防犯カメラ、500万台に迫る |last=吉野 |first=次郎 |date=13 November 2018 |access-date=5 February 2023 |language=ja}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===United States=== [[File:2017-08-13 Sunriver Airport 18.jpg|thumb|Surveillance camera mounted on a tripod in [[Sunriver, Oregon]]]] There were an estimated 30 million surveillance cameras in the United States in 2011.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|title=Technocreep : the surrender of privacy and the capitalization of intimacy.|date=2014|publisher=Greystone Books|location=[S.l.]|isbn=978-1771641227|page=28|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=RExHBAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA28|postscript=none}}; {{cite news|title=Surveillance Society: New High-Tech Cameras Are Watching You|url=http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a2398/4236865/|access-date=31 October 2015|work=Popular Mechanics|date=30 September 2009|postscript=none}}; {{cite news|title=Lawmakers want more surveillance on the ground -- and in the sky|url=http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/20/17830619-lawmakers-want-more-surveillance-on-the-ground-and-in-the-sky?lite|access-date=31 October 2015|work=NBC News|date=20 April 2013|postscript=none}}; {{cite book|last1=Dempsey|first1=John|last2=Forst|first2=Linda|title=An Introduction to Policing|date=2015|publisher=Cengage Learning|isbn=9781305544680|page=485|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=W4TCBAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA485}}&lt;/ref&gt; Video surveillance has been common in the United States since the 1990s; for example, one manufacturer reported net earnings of $120 million in 1995.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Public Video Surveillance: Is It An Effective Crime Prevention Tool?|url=http://www.library.ca.gov/crb/97/05/|publisher=California Research Bureau|access-date=5 February 2015|date=June 1997|quote=The popularity of CCTV security systems has not gone unnoticed by the manufacturers of camera surveillance systems. ...A leading CCTV manufacturer reported net earnings of $120 million in 1995, compared with net earnings of $16 million the previous year. ...Over 50 percent of all CCTV surveillance equipment sales are to industrial and commercial clients. CCTV surveillance is also very common in the American workplace.|archive-date=17 April 2017|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170417005043/http://www.library.ca.gov/CRB/97/05/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; With lower cost and easier installation, sales of home security cameras increased in the early 21st century. Following the [[September 11 attacks]], the use of video surveillance in public places became more common to deter future terrorist attacks.&lt;ref name=&quot;Yesil, Bilge&quot;/&gt; Under the [[Homeland Security Grant Program]], government grants are available for cities to install surveillance camera networks.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last1=Minoli|first1=Daniel|title=Building the internet of things with IPv6 and MIPv6 the evolving world of M2M communications|date=2013|publisher=Wiley|location=New Jersey|isbn=9781118647134|page=86|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=6DW8UbAiaLEC&amp;pg=PT85}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine|title=The great surveillance boom|url=http://fortune.com/2013/04/26/the-great-surveillance-boom/|magazine=Fortune|access-date=24 January 2016|date=26 April 2013}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Privacy Fears Grow as Cities Increase Surveillance|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/14/technology/privacy-fears-as-surveillance-grows-in-cities.html|access-date=5 January 2017|work=The New York Times|date=13 October 2013}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2009, there were an estimated 15,000 CCTV systems in [[Chicago]], many linked to an integrated camera network.&lt;ref name=WSJ2009&gt;{{cite news|title=Chicago's Camera Network Is Everywhere|url=https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704538404574539910412824756|access-date=5 January 2017|work=[[The Wall Street Journal]]|date=17 November 2009}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://abc7chicago.com/archive/7370352/|title=Chicago Links Police, Private Cameras|publisher=[[WLS-TV]]|year=2010|access-date=2010-08-16|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20100406171238/http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news%2Flocal&amp;id=7370352|archive-date=6 April 2010|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Chicago's Video SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS: A PERVASIVE AND UNREGULATED THREAT TO OUR PRIVACY|url=http://www.aclu-il.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Surveillance-Camera-Report1.pdf|publisher=ACLU of Illinois|access-date=5 January 2017|date=February 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160327043725/http://www.aclu-il.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Surveillance-Camera-Report1.pdf|archive-date=27 March 2016|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; New York City's [[Domain Awareness System]] has 6,000 video surveillance cameras linked together,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=NYPD expands surveillance net to fight crime as well as terrorism|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-ny-surveillance-idUSL2N0EV0D220130621|access-date=31 October 2015|work=Reuters|date=21 June 2013}}&lt;/ref&gt; there are over 4,000 cameras on the subway system (although nearly half of them do not work),&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Lack of Video Slows Hunt for a Killer in the Subway|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/nyregion/30subway.html|access-date=31 October 2015|work=The New York Times|date=29 March 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; and two-thirds of large apartment and commercial buildings use video surveillance cameras.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=The State Of Surveillance|url=https://www.bloomberg.com/bw/stories/2005-08-07/the-state-of-surveillance|access-date=31 October 2015|work=Bloomberg Business|date=7 August 2005}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=The Building Has 1,000 Eyes|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/realestate/more-surveillance-cameras-at-new-york-residences.html|access-date=5 January 2017|work=The New York Times|date=4 October 2013}}&lt;/ref&gt; In [[Washington, D.C.]] there are more than 30,000 surveillance cameras in schools,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=30,000 Surveillance Cameras Monitor D.C.-Area Public Schools|url=http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/30000-Surveillance-Cameras-Monitor-DC-Area-Public-Schools-287297041.html|access-date=31 October 2015|work=NBC Washington|date=1 January 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151006071902/http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/30000-Surveillance-Cameras-Monitor-DC-Area-Public-Schools-287297041.html|archive-date=6 October 2015|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; and the [[Washington Metro|Metro]] has nearly 6,000 cameras in use across the system.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Metro Plans to Triple Number of Security Cameras|url=http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Metro-Plans-to-Triple-Number-of-Security-Cameras-200859881.html|access-date=31 October 2015|work=NBC Washington|date=1 April 2013}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===United Kingdom=== In the United Kingdom, the vast majority of CCTV cameras are operated not by government bodies, but by private individuals or companies, especially to monitor the interiors of shops and businesses. According to the [[Freedom of Information Act 2000]] requests, the total number of local government operated CCTV cameras was around 52,000 over the entirety of the UK.&lt;ref name=refBBW1&gt;{{cite web|title= The Price of Privacy: How local authorities spent £515m on CCTV in four years|url= http://www.bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/files/priceofprivacy/Price_of_privacy_2012.pdf|publisher= Big Brother Watch|date= February 2012|page= 30|access-date= 4 February 2015|archive-date= 23 September 2015|archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20150923185058/http://www.bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/files/priceofprivacy/Price_of_privacy_2012.pdf|url-status= dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; An article published in ''CCTV Image'' magazine estimated the number of private and local government operated cameras in the United Kingdom was 1.85 million in 2011. The estimate was based on extrapolating from a comprehensive survey of public and private cameras within the Cheshire Constabulary jurisdiction. This works out as an average of one camera for every 32 people in the UK, although the density of cameras varies greatly from place to place. The Cheshire report also claims that the average person on a typical day would be seen by 70 CCTV cameras.&lt;ref name=Guardian2011&gt;{{cite news|title=You're being watched: there's one CCTV camera for every 32 people in UK - Research shows 1.85m machines across Britain, most of them indoors and privately operated|url= https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/mar/02/cctv-cameras-watching-surveillance|access-date=7 January 2017|newspaper=The Guardian|date=2 March 2011}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Cheshire figure is regarded as more dependable than a previous study by Michael McCahill and Clive Norris of ''UrbanEye'' published in 2002.&lt;ref name=Guardian2011/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.urbaneye.net/results/ue_wp6.pdf |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20221009/http://www.urbaneye.net/results/ue_wp6.pdf |archive-date=2022-10-09 |url-status=live|title=CCTV in London|access-date=22 July 2009}}&lt;/ref&gt; Based on a small sample in [[Putney]] High Street, McCahill and Norris extrapolated the number of surveillance cameras in [[London|Greater London]] to be around 500,000 and the total number of cameras in the UK to be around 4,200,000. According to their estimate the UK has one camera for every 14 people. Although it has been acknowledged for several years that the methodology behind this figure is flawed,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/factcheck+how+many+cctv+cameras/2291167|title=FactCheck: how many CCTV cameras?|publisher=Channel 4 News|date=18 June 2008|access-date=8 May 2009|archive-date=11 May 2010|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20100511054941/http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/factcheck+how+many+cctv+cameras/2291167|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; it has been widely quoted. Furthermore, the figure of 500,000 for Greater London is often confused with the figure for the police and local government operated cameras in the [[City of London]], which was about 650 in 2011.&lt;ref name=refBBW1 /&gt; The ''CCTV User Group'' estimated that there were around 1.5 million private and local government CCTV cameras in city centres, stations, airports, and major retail areas in the UK.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.cctvusergroup.com/art.php?art=94|title=How many cameras are there?|publisher=CCTV User Group|date=18 June 2008|access-date=8 May 2009|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20081023191646/http://www.cctvusergroup.com/art.php?art=94|archive-date=23 October 2008}}&lt;/ref&gt; Research conducted by the Scottish Centre for Crime and Justice Research and based on a survey of all Scottish local authorities, identified that there are over 2,200 public space CCTV cameras in Scotland.&lt;ref&gt;Bannister, J., Mackenzie, S. and Norris, P. [http://www.sccjr.ac.uk/pubs/Public-Space-CCTV-in-Scotland--Results-of-a-National-Survey-of-Scotlands-Local-Authorities/182 Public Space CCTV in Scotland] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120927060757/http://www.sccjr.ac.uk/pubs/Public-Space-CCTV-in-Scotland--Results-of-a-National-Survey-of-Scotlands-Local-Authorities/182 |date=27 September 2012 }}(2009), Scottish Centre for Crime and Justice Research (Research Report)&lt;/ref&gt; === Canada === Project SCRAM is a policing effort by the [[Halton Regional Police Service]] to register and help consumers understand the complex issues of privacy and safety that confront households when dealing with installations of home security systems. &quot;The SCRAM program enables community members to voluntarily identify and register their residential video surveillance equipment through a simple, secure, confidential, online form.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;One Vision, One Mission, One Team&quot;&gt;[http://haltonpolice.ca/CommunityPolicing/Pages/securitycameraregistration.aspx One Vision, One Mission, One Team] {{webarchive |url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160114161848/http://haltonpolice.ca/CommunityPolicing/Pages/securitycameraregistration.aspx |date=14 January 2016 }}(2014), Halton Regional Police Service&lt;/ref&gt; It has not been extended to commercial businesses. A wide-ranging effort to provide registration and monitoring of home security and systems. &quot;Security camera registration and monitoring is a community-based [[crime prevention]] opportunity and investigative tool that enlists the help of residents and can help prevent [[crime]] on three levels. Residential video surveillance cameras can deter criminals from entering the area, can prevent crimes from occurring and help solve crimes by providing valuable [[evidence]] to the [[police]].&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;One Vision, One Mission, One Team&quot;/&gt; === South Africa === In South Africa due to the [[Crime in South Africa|high crime rate]] CCTV surveillance is widely prevalent, but the country has been slow to implement the latest technology. For example, the first [[IP camera]] was released in 1996 by [[Axis Communications]] but IP cameras did not arrive in South Africa till 2008.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://intellisec.co.za/cctv-systems/|title=CCTV Systems|access-date=24 February 2017|archive-date=2 April 2017|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170402063442/http://intellisec.co.za/cctv-systems/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; To regulate the number of suppliers in 2001 the Private Security Industry Regulation Act was passed requiring all security companies to be registered with the Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority (PSIRA).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.psira.co.za/psira/images/Documents/Code_of_conduct/2014_psira_act.pdf |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20221009/http://www.psira.co.za/psira/images/Documents/Code_of_conduct/2014_psira_act.pdf |archive-date=2022-10-09 |url-status=live|title=PSIRA ACT|publisher=Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority|date=25 February 2002|access-date=2016-10-12}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Latin America=== In Latin America, the CCTV market is growing rapidly with the increase of property crime.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;[http://www.securitymagazine.com/Articles/SEC_Newswire/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000678960 Latin American Physical Security Market Growing Rapidly],&quot; 8 October 2009 ''Security Magazine''&lt;/ref&gt; Installation of CCTV camera is increasing day by day and the crime is somewhat controlled.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.nptechsolution.com/2019/09/cctv-camera-installation-guide.html|title=CCTV Camera Installation Guide|last=Sandip|website=NP Tech Solution|access-date=2019-12-28}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Russia=== [[File:Soviet Motorised CCTV camera - panoramio.jpg|thumb|Soviet motorized CCTV camera]] The number of CCTV cameras equipped with facial biometrics in Moscow's public surveillance network is set to grow by 70 times from the current 1,500 to 105,000 by the end of the year. The CCTV system in Moscow can now recognize faces using an algorithm based on neural networks. City camera recordings are analyzed in real-time. Faces on the screen are scanned and can be checked against several databases, such as the police database, to identify a suspect. This analytical system can also help police recreate a suspect's movements around the city. The system searches for related recordings from various CCTV cameras and identifies the same face from several sightings. The Moscow network includes 160,000 CCTV cameras and 95 percent of residential buildings. By the end of the year, residents will be able to install CCTV cameras on private buildings themselves while connecting them to the unified video observation system. This year, over 3,500 cameras have been connected to the General Centre for Data Storage and Processing. This includes cameras in entrance halls, schools and kindergartens, at MCC stations, stadiums, public transport stops and bus terminals, and in parks. Video recordings are used to solve 70 percent of offenses and crimes. The cameras also help monitor utility services. A department spokesperson added that Moscow has one of the largest security systems in the world with such a comprehensive identification system.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/09/29/facial-recognition-fitted-5000-cctv-cameras-moscow/ |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20220111/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/09/29/facial-recognition-fitted-5000-cctv-cameras-moscow/ |archive-date=11 January 2022 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|title=Facial recognition fitted to 5,000 CCTV cameras in Moscow|first=Cara|last=McGoogan|newspaper=The Telegraph |date=29 September 2017|via=www.telegraph.co.uk}}{{cbignore}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Privacy == [[File:Wfm cctv van.jpg|thumb|A mobile closed-circuit TV van monitoring a street market]]{{See also|Visual privacy}} Proponents of CCTV cameras argue that cameras are effective at deterring and solving crime, and that appropriate regulation and legal restrictions on surveillance of ''public'' spaces can provide sufficient protections so that an individual's [[right to privacy]] can reasonably be weighed against the benefits of surveillance.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last1=Kroener|first1=Inga|title=CCTV: A Technology Under the Radar?|date=2014|publisher=Ashgate Publishing |isbn= 9781472400963}}&lt;/ref&gt; However, [[anti-surveillance activists]] have held that there is a right to privacy in public areas. Furthermore, while it is true that there may be scenarios wherein a person's right to public privacy can be both reasonably and justifiably compromised, some scholars have argued that such situations are so rare as to not sufficiently warrant the frequent compromising of public privacy rights that occurs in regions with widespread CCTV surveillance. For example, in her book ''Setting the Watch: Privacy and the Ethics of CCTV Surveillance'', Beatrice von Silva-Tarouca Larsen argues that CCTV surveillance is ethically permissible only in &quot;certain restrictively defined situations&quot;, such as when a specific location has a &quot;comprehensively documented and significant criminal threat&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|author= Beatrice Von Silva-Tarouca Larsen|year=2011| title=Setting the watch: Privacy and the ethics of CCTV surveillance|publisher=Hart Publishing|isbn=9781849460842|page=160}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the [[United States]], the Constitution does not explicitly include the [[right to privacy]] although the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]] has said several of the amendments to the Constitution implicitly grant this right.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Your Right to Privacy|url=https://www.aclu.org/your-right-privacy|publisher=American Civil Liberties Union}}&lt;/ref&gt; Access to video surveillance recordings may require a judge's [[writ]], which is readily available.&lt;ref&gt;[[United States Department of Justice|Department of Justice]] - [https://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/7mcrm.htm Video Surveillance] Retrieved 6 August 1982&lt;/ref&gt; However, there is little legislation and regulation specific to video surveillance.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=What's Wrong With Public Video Surveillance|url=https://www.aclu.org/whats-wrong-public-video-surveillance|publisher=American Civil Liberties Union|access-date=24 January 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|author=Inga Kroener|title=CCTV: A Technology Under the Radar?|date=2014|publisher=Ashgate Publishing|isbn=9781472400963|page=110}}&lt;/ref&gt; All countries in the [[European Union]] are signatories to the [[European Convention on Human Rights]] which protects individual rights including the right to privacy. In the [[United Kingdom]], the [[Data Protection Act 1998]] imposes legal restrictions on the uses of CCTV recordings and mandates the registration of CCTV systems with the Data Protection Agency. In 2004, the successor to the Data Protection Agency, the [[Information Commissioner's Office]] clarified that this required registration of all CCTV systems with the Commissioner, and prompt deletion of archived recordings. However, subsequent case law (Durant vs. FSA) limited the scope of the protection provided by this law, and not all CCTV systems are currently regulated.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Memorandum by A A Adams, BSc, MSc, PhD, LLM, MBCS, CITP School of Systems Engineering|url=https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200809/ldselect/ldconst/18/18we03.htm|website=UK Parliament Constitution Committee - Written Evidence. Surveillance: Citizens and the State|date=January 2007}}&lt;/ref&gt; A 2007 report by the UK Information Commissioner's Office, highlighted the need for the public to be made more aware of the growing use of surveillance and the potential impact on civil liberties.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Privacy watchdog wants curbs on surveillance|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1550218/Privacy-watchdog-wants-curbs-on-surveillance.html |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20220111/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1550218/Privacy-watchdog-wants-curbs-on-surveillance.html |archive-date=11 January 2022 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|newspaper=The Telegraph|date=1 May 2007}}{{cbignore}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=CCTV, computers and the 'climate of fear'|url=https://www.standard.co.uk/news/cctv-computers-and-the-climate-of-fear-7204625.html|newspaper=Evening Standard|date=30 April 2007}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the same year, a campaign group claimed the majority of CCTV cameras in the UK are operated illegally or are in breach of privacy guidelines.&lt;ref name=Telegraph2007&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/31/ncamera131.xml|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20070602114448/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2007%2F05%2F31%2Fncamera131.xml|url-status=dead|archive-date=2 June 2007|title=Majority of UK's CCTV cameras 'are illegal'|date=31 May 2007|newspaper=The Telegraph|access-date=18 July 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; In response, the Information Commissioner's Office rebutted the claim and added that any reported abuses of the Data Protection Act are swiftly investigated.&lt;ref name=Telegraph2007 /&gt; Even if there are some concerns arising from the use of CCTV such as involving privacy,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/dec/11/home-surveillance-cctv-images-may-breach-data-protection-rules-european-court-judgment-says|title=Home surveillance CCTV images may breach data protection laws, ECJ rules|website=[[TheGuardian.com]]|date=11 December 2014|access-date=2015-03-11}}&lt;/ref&gt; more commercial establishments are still installing CCTV systems in the UK. In 2012, the UK government enacted the [[Protection of Freedoms Act 2012|Protection of Freedoms Act]] which includes several provisions related to controlling and restricting the collection, storage, retention, and use of information about individuals. Under this Act, the [[Home Office]] published a code of practice in 2013 for the use of surveillance cameras by government and local authorities. The aim of the code is to help ensure their use is &quot;characterised as surveillance by consent, and such consent on the part of the community must be informed consent and not assumed by a system operator. Surveillance by consent should be regarded as analogous to [[policing by consent]].&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Surveillance Camera Code of Practice|url=https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/204775/Surveillance_Camera_Code_of_Practice_WEB.pdf |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20221009/https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/204775/Surveillance_Camera_Code_of_Practice_WEB.pdf |archive-date=2022-10-09 |url-status=live|publisher=UK Government Home Office|access-date=1 December 2013|page=5|date=June 2013}}&lt;/ref&gt; In [[Canada]], the use of video surveillance has grown very rapidly. In [[Ontario]], both the ''municipal'' and ''provincial'' versions of the [[Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act (Ontario)|Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act]] outline very specific guidelines that control how ''images'' and ''[[information]]'' can be gathered by this method and or released.&lt;ref&gt;[https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90f31 Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act] {{webarchive |url=https://web.archive.org/web/20070924143038/http://www.ipc.on.ca/index.asp?navid=73 |date=24 September 2007 }} Text&lt;/ref&gt; In [[Sweden]], the use of CCTV in public spaces is regulated both nationally and via [[General Data Protection Regulation|GDPR]] (the European privacy act). The national legislation requires permits for public operators (except for law-enforcement agencies since 1 January 2020) to install CCTV in spaces that allow access to the general public. In an opinion poll commissioned by [[Lund University]] in August 2017, the general public of Sweden were asked to choose one measure that would ensure their need for privacy when subject to CCTV-operation in public spaces: 43% favored regulation in the form of clear routines for managing, storing and distributing image material generated from surveillance cameras, 39% favored regulation in the form of clear signage informing that camera surveillance in public spaces is present, 2% favored regulation in the form of having permits restricting the use of surveillance cameras during certain times of day/week, 10% favored regulation in the form of having restrictive policies for issuing permits for surveillance cameras in public spaces, and 6% were unsure or did not know.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Lahtinen|first1=Markus|title=The perception of surveillance cameras and privacy among the general public in Sweden|date=2017|publisher=LUSAX-research group, Lund University School of Economics and Management, Sweden|url=http://lusax.se/Lahtinen_2017_OpinionPoll_DataSheet.pdf |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20221009/http://lusax.se/Lahtinen_2017_OpinionPoll_DataSheet.pdf |archive-date=2022-10-09 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the [[Philippines]], the main laws governing CCTV usage are [[Data Privacy Act of 2012]] and the [[Cybercrime Prevention Act of 2012]]. The Data Privacy Act of 2012 (Republic Act No. 10173) is the primary law that governs data privacy in the Philippines. The Act mandates that the privacy of individuals must be respected and protected. The law applies to CCTV cameras as they collect and process personal data. This means that the use of CCTV cameras must respect the principles of transparency, legitimate purpose, and proportionality. The Cybercrime Prevention Act of 2012 (Republic Act No. 10175) includes provisions that apply to CCTV usage. Under the Act, the unauthorized access to, interception of, or interference with data is a criminal offense. This means that unauthorized access to CCTV footage could potentially be considered a cybercrime.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Manalo |first1=Dennes M. |last2=Mapoy |first2=Kim Alvin |last3=Villano |first3=Kim Joem K. |last4=Reyes |first4=Kenneth Angelo D. |last5=Bautista |first5=Merwina Lou A. |date=2015 |title=Status of Closed Circuit Television Camera Usage in Batangas City: Basis for Enhancement |url=https://research.lpubatangas.edu.ph/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/CRIM-2015-003-Status-of-Closed-Circuit-Television-Camera-Usage-in-Batangas-City.pdf |journal=College of Criminology Research Journal |volume=6 |via=Pubatangas}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Republic Act 10173 - Data Privacy Act of 2012 |url=https://www.privacy.gov.ph/data-privacy-act/ |website=National Privacy Commission}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Republic Act No. 10175 {{!}} GOVPH |url=https://www.officialgazette.gov.ph/2012/09/12/republic-act-no-10175/ |access-date=2023-05-11 |website=Official Gazette of the Republic of the Philippines |date=12 September 2012 |language=en-US |archive-date=9 December 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211209023224/https://www.officialgazette.gov.ph/2012/09/12/republic-act-no-10175/ |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt; == Technological developments == [[File:closed.circuit.camera.arp.750pix.jpg|thumb|Surveillance camera at London Heathrow Airport with a wiper for clear images during rain]] === Computer-controlled analytics and identification === Computer-controlled cameras can identify, [[video tracking|track]], and categorize objects in their field of view.&lt;ref&gt;James Vincent, The Verge. &quot;[https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/23/16907238/artificial-intelligence-surveillance-cameras-security Artificial Intelligence Is Going To Supercharge Surveillance].&quot; 23 January 2018. Retrieved 25 March 2019&lt;/ref&gt; [[Video content analysis]], also referred to as video analytics, is the capability of automatically analyzing [[video]] to detect and determine temporal events not based on a single image, but rather [[object classification]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|title=2018 9th International Conference on Information and Communication Systems (ICICS) : 3-5 April 2018, Jordan University of Science and Technology, Irbid, Jordan.|others=Jordan University of Science &amp; Technology, Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. Jordan Section, Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers|year=2018 |isbn=9781538643662|location=Piscataway, New Jersey}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the last decade, improved VCA features have been developed. Beyond recognizing specific shapes and colors, VCA applications now can analyze more complex scenarios. Advanced VCA applications can accurately classify object types based on their shape and motion behavior and they can also measure object speed. Some video analytics applications can be used to virtually apply rules to designated areas. These rules can relate to access control. For example, they can describe which objects can enter into a specific area, when they are allowed to enter or within what circumstances. Virtually applied rules can also relate to various motion situations. VCA based CCTV systems can be set to detect anomalies in a crowd, for instance a person moving in the opposite direction in which they are normally expected (e.g. debarking from a plane at an airport or exiting through an entrance in a subway).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.mate.co.il/page.asp?newsid=53&amp;type=6&amp;cat=28&amp;lang=1|title=MATE's Analytics Integrate with Hirsch Security Systems|access-date=28 March 2011|archive-date=16 February 2009|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20090216014657/http://www.mate.co.il/page.asp?newsid=53&amp;type=6&amp;cat=28&amp;lang=1|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; There are different approaches to implementing VCA technology. Data may be processed on the camera itself (edge processing) or by a centralized server. Both approaches have their pros and cons.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.ercim.eu/publication/ws-proceedings/DELOS4/oliveira.pdf |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20221009/http://www.ercim.eu/publication/ws-proceedings/DELOS4/oliveira.pdf |archive-date=2022-10-09 |url-status=live|title=Image Processing Techniques for Video Content Extraction}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Eye-in-the-sky083.jpg|thumb|upright|Eye-in-the-sky surveillance dome camera watching from a high steel pole]] To many, the development of CCTV in public areas, linked to computer databases of people's pictures and identity, presents a serious breach of [[civil liberties]]. Critics fear such technology will lead to the loss of [[anonymity]] in [[public place]]s.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|author=Todd Lewan|url=https://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/surveillance/2007-07-21-chips_N.htm |title=Microchips in humans spark privacy debate|newspaper=[[USAToday]]|date=7 July 2007|access-date=2012-06-07}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Retention, storage and preservation === There is a cost in the retention of the images produced by CCTV systems. The amount and quality of data stored on storage media is subject to compression ratios, images stored per second, image size, and is affected by the retention period of the videos or images.&lt;ref name=&quot;JVSG Video Compression Guide 2010&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title= MotionJPEG, JPEG2000, H.264 and MPEG-4 compression methods in CCTV|access-date=2011-05-01|url=http://www.jvsg.com/cctv-compression-guide/}}&lt;/ref&gt; DVRs store images in a variety of [[proprietary file format]]s. Recordings may be retained for a preset amount of time and then automatically archived, overwritten, or deleted, the period being determined by the organisation that generated them. === IP cameras === {{Main|IP camera}} [[File:Intellinet Network Solutions NSC11-WN Home Network IP Camera.jpg|thumb|Easy Connect Wireless [[IP camera]]]] A growing branch in CCTV is ''internet protocol'' cameras (IP cameras). It is estimated that 2014 was the first year that IP cameras outsold analog cameras.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.networkwebcams.co.uk/blog/2013/12/19/the-global-value-of-ip-camera-sales-is-close-to-50-of-total-cctv-cameras-sold-worldwide-but-they-are-not-yet-plug-and-play/|title=Global value of IP camera sales now close to 50% of CCTV cameras sold, but...|date=19 December 2013}}&lt;/ref&gt; IP cameras use the [[Internet Protocol]] (IP) used by most [[local area network]]s (LANs) to transmit video across data networks in digital form. IP can optionally be transmitted across the public internet, allowing users to view their cameras remotely on a computer or phone via an internet connection.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Remote Escort |url=https://www.securitasinc.com/services/remote-guarding/remote-escort/ |website=Securitas |access-date=14 June 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; For professional or public infrastructure security applications, IP video is restricted to within a private network or [[VPN]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.axis.com/files/articles/ar_10myths_secinfowatch_us_0512.pdf |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20221009/http://www.axis.com/files/articles/ar_10myths_secinfowatch_us_0512.pdf |archive-date=2022-10-09 |url-status=live|title=Dispelling the Top 10 Myths of IP Surveillance|access-date=30 March 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; IP cameras are considered part of the [[Internet of things|Internet of Things]] ([[Internet of things|IoT]]) and have many of the same benefits and security risks as other IP-enabled devices.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/mx/security/news/internet-of-things/securing-ip-surveillance-cameras-in-the-iot-ecosystem|title=Securing IP Surveillance Cameras in the IoT Ecosystem - Noticias de seguridad - Trend Micro MX|website=www.trendmicro.com|language=es|access-date=2020-02-18}}&lt;/ref&gt; Main types of IP cameras include: fixed cameras, [[Pan–tilt–zoom camera|pan-tilt-zoom]] (PTZ) cameras and multi-sensor cameras.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url= https://internationalsecurityjournal.com/selecting-most-suitable-cameras/ |title= Selecting the most suitable cameras to monitor large areas |website= internationalsecurityjournal.com |date= 19 November 2020 |publisher= International Security Journal |access-date= 2021-06-23}}&lt;/ref&gt; Fixed cameras' resolution can vary based on the application area, but typically does not exceed 20 MP. The main feature of a PTZ is its remote directional and optical zoom capability. With multi-sensor cameras, wider areas can be monitored and hundreds of [[megapixel]] resolution can be achieved. Industrial video surveillance systems use [[network video recorder]]s to support IP cameras. These devices are responsible for the recording, storage, video stream processing, and alarm management. Since 2008, IP video surveillance manufacturers can use a standardized network interface ([[ONVIF]]) to support compatibility between systems.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url= https://www.ifsecglobal.com/onvif/ |title= ONVIF: a guide to the open security platform |website= ifsecglobal.com |publisher= IFSEC Global |access-date= 2021-06-23}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Networking CCTV cameras === The city of [[Chicago]] operates a networked video surveillance system which combines CCTV video feeds of government agencies with those of the private sector, installed in city buses, businesses, public schools, subway stations, housing projects, etc.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=The City of Chicago's OEMC and IBM Launch Advanced Video Surveillance System|url=http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22385.wss|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20090524151923/http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22385.wss|url-status=dead|archive-date=24 May 2009|website=IBM News Room}}&lt;/ref&gt; Even homeowners are able to contribute footage. It is estimated to incorporate the video feeds of a total of 15,000 cameras.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704538404574539910412824756|title=Chicago's Camera Network Is Everywhere|author=William M. Bulkeley|newspaper=Wall Street Journal}}&lt;/ref&gt; The system is used by Chicago's [[Office of Emergency Management]] in case of an emergency call: it detects the caller's location and instantly displays the real-time video feed of the nearest security camera to the operator, not requiring any user intervention. While the system is far too vast to allow complete real-time monitoring, it stores the video data for use as evidence in criminal cases.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;[https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704538404574539910412824756 Chicago's Camera Network Is Everywhere]&quot;, The Wall Street Journal&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Integrated LCD DVR.jpg|thumb|An integrated systems unit]] === Wireless security cameras === {{Main|Wireless security camera}} [[File:Lorex digital wireless camera.jpg|thumb|[[Wireless security camera]]]] Many consumers are turning to wireless security cameras for home surveillance. Wireless cameras do not require a video cable for video/audio transmission, simply a cable for power. Wireless cameras are also easy and inexpensive to install, but they lack the reliability of hard-wired cameras.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=CCTV Camera Installation Guide |url=https://is3tech.com/commercial-security-camera-systems/cloud-based |access-date=2023-10-30 |website=iS3 Tech}}&lt;/ref&gt; Previous generations of wireless security cameras relied on analogue technology; modern wireless cameras use digital technology which delivers crisper audio, sharper video, and a secure and interference-free signal.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|title=Digital Video Essentials: Shoot, Transfer, Edit, Share By Erica Sadun|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=x_yb92nsqnUC&amp;q=video+digital+vs+analog&amp;pg=PA3|access-date=16 October 2013|isbn=9780470113196|last1=Sadun|first1=Erica|date=26 December 2006| publisher=John Wiley &amp; Sons }}&lt;/ref&gt; Nowadays, Smart dual light is used in cameras for night vision and to record brighter videos of dark rooms.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-03-27 |title=Smart Dual Light - thaiccd.com |url=https://thaiccd.com/smart-dual-light/ |access-date=2024-06-26 |language=th}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Talking CCTV === {{main|Talking CCTV}} In [[Wiltshire]], [[United Kingdom|UK]], 2003, a pilot scheme for what is now known as &quot;Talking CCTV&quot; was put into action, allowing operators of CCTV cameras to order offenders to stop their wrongdoings, ranging from ordering subjects to pick up their rubbish and put it in a bin to ordering groups of vandals to disperse. In 2005, Ray Mallon, the mayor and former senior police officer of [[Middlesbrough]] implemented &quot;Talking CCTV&quot; in his area.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tees/5353538.stm|title=Town trials talking CCTV cameras|work=BBC News|date=17 September 2006}}&lt;/ref&gt; Other towns have had such cameras installed. In 2007, several of the devices were installed in [[Bridlington]] town centre, [[East Riding of Yorkshire]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/6492925.stm|title='Talking' CCTV cameras are tested|work=BBC News|date=25 March 2007}}&lt;/ref&gt; === AI CCTV Cameras === [[Artificial intelligence|Artificial Intelligence]] (AI) has significantly advanced [[Closed-circuit television camera|Closed-Circuit Television]] (CCTV) systems, enhancing their capabilities beyond traditional surveillance. AI-powered CCTV cameras can analyze video footage in real-time, enabling features such as object detection, behavior analysis, and anomaly detection.{{citation needed}} These systems reduce false alarms by distinguishing normal activities from threats, improving security and efficiency.{{citation needed}} == Countermeasures == Due to the widespread implementation of surveillance cameras, glasses that can defeat CCTV cameras have been constructed. In December 2016, a form of anti-CCTV and facial recognition sunglasses called &quot;reflectacles&quot; were invented by a custom-spectacle-craftsman based in Chicago named Scott Urban.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.magneticmag.com/2016/12/be-seen-and-unseen-reflectacles-are-the-sunglasses-of-the-future/|title=Be Seen and Unseen! Reflectacles are the Sunglasses of the Future}}{{dead link|date=October 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; They reflect infrared and, optionally, visible light which makes the user's face a white blur to cameras. The project passed its funding goal of $28,000, and &quot;reflectacles&quot; became commercially available in June 2017.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/reflectacles/reflectacles-reflective-eyewear-and-sunglasses|title=Reflectacles - Reflective Eyewear and Sunglasses|website=Kickstarter}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:CCTV graffiti - geograph.org.uk - 977154.jpg|right|thumb|240px|Anti-CCTV graffiti]] == See also == {{div col|colwidth=30em}} * [[Artificial intelligence for video surveillance]] * [[Bugging]] * [[Cable TV|&quot;CATV&quot; as cable television]]—not to be confused with CCTV * [[Closed-circuit television camera]] * [[Day and night camera]] * [[Effio]], uncompressed analog streaming video format * [[Eye in the sky (camera)]] * [[Fake security camera]] * [[INDECT]] * [[IP camera]] * [[Security operations center]] * [[Security smoke]] * [[Smart camera]] * [[Sousveillance]] (inverse surveillance) * [[Surveillance]] * [[The Convention on Modern Liberty]] * [[TV Network Protocol]] * [[Under vehicle inspection]] * [[Video analytics]] * [[Video evidence]] * [[Videotelephony]] * [[Washington County Closed-Circuit Educational Television Project]] * [[Unmanned aerial vehicle#Applications|Surveillance Drone]] {{div col end}} == References == {{Reflist|30em}} ==Further reading== &lt;!-- * {{cite book|title=|publisher=|year=|isbn=|url=}} --&gt; * {{cite book|editor=Armstrong, Gary|title=The maximum surveillance society: the rise of CCTV|publisher=Berg (originally, University of Michigan Press)|year=1999|isbn=9781859732212|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=6gENAQAAMAAJ}} * {{cite book|author1=Fyfe, Nicholas|author2=Bannister, Jon|chapter=City Watching: Closed-Circuit Television in Public Spaces|editor=Fyfe, Nicholas |editor2=Kenny, Judith T.|title=The Urban Geography Reader|publisher=Psychology Press|year=2005|isbn=9780415307017|chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=box4yhB5TL4C&amp;pg=PA364|url-access=registration|url=https://archive.org/details/urbangeographyre0000unse}} * {{cite journal|author=Nassauer, Anne|title=How Robberies Succeed or Fail: Analyzing Crime Caught on CCTV|journal=[[Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency]]|year=2018|volume=55|issue=1|pages=125–154|doi=10.1177/0022427817715754|doi-access=free}} * {{cite book|author1=Newburn, Tim |author2=Hayman, Stephanie|title=Policing, Surveillance and Social Control: CCTV and police monitoring of suspects|publisher=Taylor &amp; Francis|year=2001|isbn=9781843924692|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=YaonBzDpUjIC}} * {{cite book|author=Norris, Clive|chapter=From Personal to Digital: CCTV, the panopticon, and the technological mediation of suspicion and social control|editor=Lyon, David|title=Surveillance as Social Sorting: Privacy, Risk, and Digital Discrimination|publisher=Psychology Press|year=2003|isbn=9780415278737|chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=yCLFBfZwl08C&amp;pg=PA249}} * Wei Qi Yan (2019). [https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-10713-0 Introduction to Intelligent Surveillance: Surveillance Data Capture, Transmission, and Analytics], Springer London. ==External links== {{Commons category|Closed-circuit television (CCTV)}} *[https://web.archive.org/web/20070212072806/http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hors292.pdf Assessing the Impact of CCTV, a UK Home office study on the effectiveness of closed-circuit television] {{privacy}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Closed-Circuit Television}} [[Category:Applications of computer vision]] [[Category:Assistive technology]] [[Category:Crime prevention]] [[Category:Law enforcement techniques]] [[Category:Physical security]] [[Category:Public safety]] [[Category:Security engineering]] [[Category:Security technology]] [[Category:Surveillance]] [[Category:Video surveillance]] [[Category:Video]] [[Category:Warning systems]] [[Category:Telecommunications-related introductions in 1942]]</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:157.15.11.13&diff=1259836485</id> <title>User talk:157.15.11.13</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:157.15.11.13&diff=1259836485"/> <updated>2024-11-27T09:41:30Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for disruptive editing. <hr /> <div>== November 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello! I'm [[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]]. Your recent edit(s) to the page [[:Classical languages of India]] appear to have added incorrect information, so they have been [[Help:Reverting|reverted]] for now. If you believe the information you added was correct, please [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|cite a reliable source]] or discuss your change on the article's talk page. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on [[User talk:Arjayay|my talk page]]. Thank you. &lt;!-- Template:uw-error1 --&gt; - [[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]] ([[User talk:Arjayay|talk]]) 20:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC) [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please do not add or change content, as you did at [[:Classical languages of India]], without citing a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]]. Please review the guidelines at [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]] and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-unsourced2 --&gt; - [[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]] ([[User talk:Arjayay|talk]]) 20:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC) [[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop. If you continue to add [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|unsourced or poorly sourced]] content, as you did at [[:Classical languages of India]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. &lt;!-- Template:uw-unsourced3 --&gt; - [[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]] ([[User talk:Arjayay|talk]]) 20:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC) [[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|alt=Stop icon]] You may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further warning''' the next time you [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia by deliberately introducing incorrect information, as you did at [[:Classical languages of India]]. &lt;!-- Template:uw-error4 --&gt; - [[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]] ([[User talk:Arjayay|talk]]) 22:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC) &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''1 week''' for persistently making [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|disruptive edits]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:41, 27 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-disruptblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:112.198.114.31&diff=1259836355</id> <title>User talk:112.198.114.31</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:112.198.114.31&diff=1259836355"/> <updated>2024-11-27T09:40:00Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. <hr /> <div> == November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:40, 27 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:188.236.169.79&diff=1259836165</id> <title>User talk:188.236.169.79</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:188.236.169.79&diff=1259836165"/> <updated>2024-11-27T09:37:47Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. <hr /> <div> == November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:37, 27 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Medcurity_HIPAA_Compliance&diff=1259765470</id> <title>User talk:Medcurity HIPAA Compliance</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Medcurity_HIPAA_Compliance&diff=1259765470"/> <updated>2024-11-26T22:54:46Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been indefinitely blocked from editing because your account is being used only for spam or advertising and your username is a violation of the username policy. (SUPG) <hr /> <div> &lt;!-- ##RW UNDERDATE## --&gt; ==Welcome!== [[File:Chocolate chip cookies.jpg|thumb|alt=A plate of chocolate chip cookies.|[[Help:Getting started|'''Welcome!''']]]] Hello, Medcurity HIPAA Compliance, and '''''[[Help:Getting started|welcome to Wikipedia]]'''''! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Below are some pages you might find helpful. 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[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;[[Category:Wikipedians who are indefinitely blocked for promotional user names|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;!-- Template:Uw-spamublock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Notability&diff=1259763049</id> <title>Wikipedia talk:Notability</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Notability&diff=1259763049"/> <updated>2024-11-26T22:35:10Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: /* This was thoroughly discussed in 2022 */ Reply <hr /> <div>{{see also|Wikipedia talk:Relevance}} {{Talk header|WT:N||noarchive=yes|search=no}} {{Notice|Before assessing if a subject has enough notability to create an article, check out if they have been assessed at [[Wikipedia:Source assessment]] first.}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{talk archive navigation}} |maxarchivesize = 300K |counter = 82 |algo = old(45d) |minthreadsleft = 1 |minthreadstoarchive = 1 |archive = Wikipedia talk:Notability/Archive %(counter)d }} {{Annual readership}} {{Press | collapsed = yes | title = Who really runs Wikipedia? | author = G.F. | date = 2013-05-06 | url = http://www.webcitation.org/6GPz3Wn9B | org = Make Use Of | title2 = Writing Women Back Into History | author2 = Alexandra Thom | date2 = {{date|16 July 2013}} | url2 = http://www.webcitation.org/6ITdt9XI4 | org2 = [[Brooklyn Museum]] | title3 = The Geography of Fame | author3 = Seth Stephans-Davidowitz | date3 = {{date|22 March 2014}} | org3 = [[The New York Times]] | url3 = http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/opinion/sunday/the-geography-of-fame.html | title4 = The Notability Blues | author4 = Stephen Harrison | date4 = {{date|26 March 2019}} | url4 = https://slate.com/technology/2019/03/wikipedia-women-history-notability-gender-gap.html | org4 = [[Slate (magazine)|Slate]] | title5 = How Wikipedia cancels Dalit icons | author5 = Sanghapali Aruna | date5 = {{date|15 December 2019}} | url5 = https://www.deccanchronicle.com/opinion/columnists/151219/how-wikipedia-cancels-dalit-icons.html | org5 = [[Deccan Chronicle]] | title6 = Canadian Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider bias, study finds | author6 = Manjula Selvarajah | date6 = {{date|19 August 2021}} | url6 = https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/wikipedia-bias-1.6129073 | org6 = [[CBC.ca|CBC]] }} {{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive &lt;#&gt; |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes }} {{Archive box|auto=yes|search=yes|bot=MiszaBot II|age=45|units=days|index=/Archive index }} == RfC: Notability and British Rail stations == &lt;!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 17:01, 15 October 2024 (UTC) --&gt;{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1729011668}} Should all British National rail stations be presumed notable as an exception to [[WP:NTRAINSTATION]]? —'''Matrix(!)''' &lt;nowiki&gt;{&lt;/nowiki&gt;''[[User:Matrix|user]] - [[User talk:Matrix|talk?]] - [[Special:Contribs/Matrix|&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;s&gt;useless&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;contributions]]''&lt;nowiki&gt;}&lt;/nowiki&gt; 16:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC) This is a follow-up to [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Riddlesdown railway station]], to which the main argument was that we have an article for every National Rail train station, so they should not be deleted for consistency. A previous discussion that may be useful is [[Special:Permalink/1099239489#Notability of train stations|the original discussion that led to NTRAINSTATION]] Main outcomes include: #All British National rail stations are inherently notable, and establish this as a [[WP:SNG|subject-specific notability guideline]] and an exception to [[WP:NTRAINSTATION]] #British National rail stations do not have inherent notability, and must be evaluated individually under [[WP:GNG|GNG]] or any other subject-specific notability guidelines. —'''Matrix(!)''' &lt;nowiki&gt;{&lt;/nowiki&gt;''[[User:Matrix|user]] - [[User talk:Matrix|talk?]] - [[Special:Contribs/Matrix|&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;s&gt;useless&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;contributions]]''&lt;nowiki&gt;}&lt;/nowiki&gt; 16:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC) :A related topic: This problem also seems pervasive in the train stations of other countries, like [[List of railway stations in Pakistan]]. Regarding the discussion regarding the British train stations, should '''1,''' the many of the train stations in [[List of railway stations]] that don't meet [[WP:NTRAINSTATION]] face deletion? A much simpler option would be to '''2,''' change notability requirements for train stations. [[User:Pygos|Pygos]] ([[User talk:Pygos|talk]]) 09:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC) ::If you can't find sources for an article about a railway station after looking for sources (including in books in the local language, which is where the majority of sources are going to be) then it should be merged to the next higher level article (usually the article about the line or system it's on). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 10:12, 17 September 2024 (UTC) :::There may be sources that exist in these articles, like for [[Khost railway station]], there's a reference to https://herald.dawn.com/news/1398873 , but such a source didn't show anything useful beyond the fact that the railway station exists (by the way, it doesn't seem to meet [[WP:SECONDARY]]). And such sources certainly don't adhere to [[WP:NTRAINSTATION]]. However, plenty of the railway stations only have sources of such levels, so should I merge them all? If I were to merge them, should I first put up AfDs or simply carry it out (which I'm certain will be offensive to many editors)? [[User:Pygos|Pygos]] ([[User talk:Pygos|talk]]) 12:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC) ::::Firstly this discussion is about railway stations in Great Britain, so a railway station in Pakistan is off-topic. Secondly, did you read what I wrote about sources that are offline and/or not in English. Thirdly, you cannot do research for one station and then apply the results to a whole set of stations. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 13:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC) :::::Sorry, then I will resort discussions of the topic to [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stations]]. I just wanted to mark that the problem resides beyond British and Pakistani train stations though (like [[Category:Railway stations in Malaysia]), so I seek a standardized solution to all the alike problems. [[User:Pygos|Pygos]] ([[User talk:Pygos|talk]]) 13:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::May be it does not exist. I am pretty well familiar with Russian and Dutch networks. I am sure I can find multiple reliable sources for every Dutch railway station. I am also sure many Russian stations are not notable on their own and are best organised in lists (which I am already planning to do). [[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:39, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::I agree with Thryduulf, but I add: Ask for help. {{xt|If you can't find sources for an article about a railway station after looking for sources (including in books in the local language, which is where the majority of sources are going to be) then}} – the problem might be with &quot;you can't find them&quot; rather than &quot;no reliable sources have ever been published&quot;. This is an area that Wikipedia does best when people work together, rather than one person thinking their result is definitive. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 05:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC) :This RfC is in the wrong place. It should be at [[Wikipedia talk:Notability (geographic features)]]. [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 00:04, 5 October 2024 (UTC) === Survey re Notability and British Rail stations === *'''Oppose''', no &quot;inherent&quot; notability for anything. Either there is a substantial quantity of reliable and independent source material available about something, or there isn't. There are certain things (as some examples, national leaders or chemical elements) where there ''in practice'' will always be such material about each one, but that's not &quot;inherent&quot; notability either, it just so happens that each member of such a set is ''actually'' notable. We do not need any more &quot;inherently notable&quot; permastubs. If each station is actually notable, that's fine, and if some are not, then that's also fine; they can be covered in a list or the like instead of in a separate &quot;article&quot; that's really just a few factoids. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:46, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:{{replyto|Seraphimblade}} Which permastubs are you thinking of? --[[User:Redrose64|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit&quot;&gt;Red&lt;/span&gt;rose64]] &amp;#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 21:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *::GEOLAND is probably the worst offender there (though sports gave it a run for the money before it got reined in). But really ''any'' time there's been any kind of &quot;inherent notability&quot; arrangement, someone scrapes a database, and the result is a ton of permastubs. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 22:07, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:::I wasn't asking about geoland or sports, and nor is this RfC. This RfC is specifically about British Rail stations, and that is what I am asking about. Which articles about '''British Rail stations''' are permastubs? --[[User:Redrose64|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit&quot;&gt;Red&lt;/span&gt;rose64]] &amp;#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *::::Your attitude is rather unnecessary, given that ''my'' comment was about inherent notability in general, and you did not specify &quot;British Rail&quot; in your question, so I answered about places where concepts of &quot;inherent notability&quot; have led to that problem. I do not have, nor need, specific examples to be in opposition to what the RfC is asking. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/small&gt; *:::::If your comment is not relevant to British railway stations then it's not relevant to this discussion and should be ignored. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 23:21, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *::::::It is. The RfC question is &quot;Should British railway stations be considered inherently notable?&quot;. The comment I made was entirely relevant to that&amp;mdash;specifically that no, they should not. I do not see how that would be anything but a directly relevant answer to the exact question being asked. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 08:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::::{{tpq|GEOLAND is probably the worst offender there (though sports gave it a run for the money before it got reined in).}} is not relevant to British railway stations. And you still haven't answered Redrose's question. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 17:14, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *'''No'''. Things aren't special just because they're British, notwithstanding the large group of editors that seems to think everything that exists in Britain is notable. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 16:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 1''' - to my knowledge we have here a complete set of 2,597 stations and this provides consistency to the reader and makes information easier to add (I've improved many station articles that previously had poor sourcing). Opening the floodgates to AfDs for each of these individually is not a good use of editor time, will provide a less consistent experience for readers, and will discourage the addition of new sources information (eg accessibility improvements, changes to service levels, platform extensions). [[User:Garuda3|Garuda3]] ([[User talk:Garuda3|talk]]) 16:48, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:{{tq|Opening the floodgates to AfDs for each of these individually is not a good use of editor time}} Let's delete all of them and recreate articles on only the notable ones (which probably amounts to a very low percentage of those 2,597 stations; I'd be surprised if 50 of them met GNG.) *:{{tq|discourage the addition of new sources information (eg accessibility improvements, changes to service levels, platform extensions).}} Wikipedia is [[WP:not|not]] a travel guide, railroad amenities database, or service map. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 16:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *::There's easily more than fifty stations that meet [[WP:GNG]]. In fact probably the vast majority would do based on books, newspapers etc. *::on your second point, we do list service improvements (or reductions) and changes to platforms, bridges etc. this info is regularly available with good sources. This doesn't make us a travel guide. [[User:Garuda3|Garuda3]] ([[User talk:Garuda3|talk]]) 16:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:::Are so many of these articles poorly sourced that it would open the floodgates? [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 17:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:::It's not often that I agree (partially) with Garuda3, but I have to concur that {{tq|There's easily more than fifty stations that meet WP:GNG.}} You could easily find more than 50 just in Greater London considering its extensive rail network and the Tube, and I say this as an American. Many if not most stations are notable. The issue I have personally is when editors say they're automatically notable just by virtue of existing and that Wikipedia policies don't apply. If anything, I'd be thrilled to have more train station articles on Wikipedia so long as they are referenced properly and meet GNG. *:::There's no conspiracy afoot to bring thousands of articles to AfD. What is true is that there are edge cases. Stations that were open for a few years. Proposed but never built stations. Stations mostly lost to history. Former stations on the site of or near a current station where the best choice from an editorial perspective is to include the former and current station within the same article. And quite frankly the occasional station that just plain does not meet GNG. Prescribing that all train stations are automatically entitled to an article is foolish and should not be done. I don't care if that's how it was in 2004, it's 2024 now. [[User:Trainsandotherthings|Trainsandotherthings]] ([[User talk:Trainsandotherthings|talk]]) 21:01, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *::At least 250 British stations are [[listed building]]s, and if you read [[WP:NGEO]] a few paragraphs before the one on train stations, you will find the statement ''Artificial geographical features that are officially assigned the status of cultural heritage or national heritage, or of any other protected status on a national level and for which verifiable information beyond simple statistics is available, are presumed to be notable''. So that is 250 stations that meet the criteria without any further argument, and that is 10% of the total. Incidentally, there are 400,000 listed buildings in England alone, and according to policy every one of them is automatically notable (although most don't actually have articles). That rather puts a discussion about 2,500 stations into perspective. -- [[User:Chris j wood|chris_j_wood]] ([[User talk:Chris j wood|talk]]) 15:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:::{{tq|So that is 250 stations that meet the criteria without any further argument, and that is 10% of the total. Incidentally, there are 400,000 listed buildings in England alone, and according to policy every one of them is automatically notable.}} Per the introductory paragraphs of NGEO, the section titled &quot;Sources&quot; on that page, and the section you're citing, adequate sourcing beyond the mere listing of a building is required to establish notability. Being listed alone, without more, does not warrant an article. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 16:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose / 2''' There's nothing inherently different about British train station from train stations in other countries, so there's no reason they shouldn't be subject to the consensus of the prior RFC. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 16:51, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:To clarify this RFC appears to be asking for British train stations alone to be exemptes from [[WP:NTRAINSTATION]], but train stations are train stations. Nothing about ''British'' train stations makes them different from the train stations found in other countries. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 16:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *::Well, I'm not asking for it (quite the opposite - I created this as a reaction to [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Riddlesdown railway station]]). I saw that was the main argument against deletion and wanted to see if it is valid and I figured an RfC was the best way to do that. Just wanted to clear that up. —'''Matrix(!)''' &lt;nowiki&gt;{&lt;/nowiki&gt;''[[User:Matrix|user]] - [[User talk:Matrix|talk?]] - [[Special:Contribs/Matrix|&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;s&gt;useless&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;contributions]]''&lt;nowiki&gt;}&lt;/nowiki&gt; 17:08, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:::The only seemingly valid argument in that AfD is the one saying the article passes GNG (I haven't checked the article to see if that's correct), the others appear to be based on the ideas already rejected by the prior RFC. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 22:07, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *::::@[[User:Matrix|Matrix]] if you firced me to AfD a British station I'd probably pick a boring south London suburban station like those so I don't blame you. But even then I'd be surprised if nobody found enough decent sources. Stations specifically aren't really my thing but I'm aware of the volume of material on the UK rail network. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *:Reading others comments I'll add I also don't expect any articles to go to AfD over this, there are endless reliable sources for British railways. Editors just need to show those sources. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 13:39, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2''' no topic has inherent notability. It can likely be said there is good reason that all British rail stations have GNG notability due to the history of British rail and rail fans in the UK, but that simply means that when such articles are created they should show sourcing that trends towards the GNG. But this should NOT (ETA this key work) be taken as allowance to create a lot of stubs on stations with the expectation they can be shown note later. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 17:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:I could argue that [[Shippea Hill railway station|Shippea Hill]] shouldn't have an article because of its low usage. However, it has been one of the quietest stations in Britain, and by looking at that article, its been reported by BBC, Guardian and Telegraph so it likely meets GNG (at least 3 reliable sources can be a safe bet). [[User:JuniperChill|JuniperChill]] ([[User talk:JuniperChill|talk]]) 17:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2''' [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Riddlesdown_railway_station|This AfD]] is effectively just a listing of [[Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions|arguments to avoid at deletion discussions]]. An absolute joke. No attempt to establish notability of the subject, just a complete rejection of our community-endorsed [[WP:NTRAINSTATION|notability guideline for train stations]]. An RfC [[Wikipedia_talk:Notability/Archive_65#h-Request_for_comment_on_train_station_notability-Train_stations-2019-06-08T18:48:00.000Z|explicitly determined]] that train stations, in whatever country, are not notable simply because they exist or existed. Unfortunately AfD suffers from minimal participation and [[WP:LOCALCONSENSUS|local consensus]] issues where a handful of participants prevent the overall consensus prevailing. A similar phenomenon has been observed with the false assertion that [[WP:ANYBIO]] #1 exempts recipients of many British honours from secondary source requirements, rather than providing a refutable likelihood. This seems a very British problem. Participants at the AfD repeatedly asserted that because it's a ''British'' railway station it must be notable. What about German, Brazilian, Chinese, or Indian railway stations? Any railway station without [[WP:GNG|significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject]] should be taken to AfD, if those sources cannot be located. [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 17:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:As the one who started the previous RfC, I really wish this one wasn't necessary. But a certain group of editors have decided that community consensus doesn't apply to them. Without context, an RfC so narrowly focused as the current one seems silly. But editor behavior has required it. I'd rather this than ANI, at least. I don't want to single out British editors, but I haven't seen any other group of editors otherwise in good standing so willing to flout policy, guidelines, and community consensus around notability. [[User:Trainsandotherthings|Trainsandotherthings]] ([[User talk:Trainsandotherthings|talk]]) 21:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2''' As proposer of the RfC I don't see how British train stations should be presumed notable per AusLondonder. —'''Matrix(!)''' &lt;nowiki&gt;{&lt;/nowiki&gt;''[[User:Matrix|user]] - [[User talk:Matrix|talk?]] - [[Special:Contribs/Matrix|&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;s&gt;useless&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;contributions]]''&lt;nowiki&gt;}&lt;/nowiki&gt; 17:22, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2 despite it's problematic wording''' There no such thing as &quot;inherent notability&quot; in Wikipedia so let's assume that they meant &quot;presumed notability&quot;, and rail stations don't and shouldn't have it.&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 17:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:Here's an example of a thoroughly discussed one: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Xingke Avenue station]]. A common argument is &quot;we created a bunch of these in a walled garden, and so now we need to be consistent with what's in the walled garden. They end up with nothing but an &quot;it exists&quot; statement with the address and a train schedule. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 17:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *::{{replyto|North8000}} This RfC is specifically about British Rail stations. Xingke Avenue station isn't British. --[[User:Redrose64|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit&quot;&gt;Red&lt;/span&gt;rose64]] &amp;#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 21:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:::I gave it as an example of a thorough example discussion about train stations.&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 15:13, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::That AfD is a perfect example as to why the original RfC was necessary, and by extension this one. Only one person supporting a keep actually tried to identify sources. If someone else had found another GNG qualifying source, that AfD might have closed differently, and I would be just fine with that. [[User:Trainsandotherthings|Trainsandotherthings]] ([[User talk:Trainsandotherthings|talk]]) 22:31, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *:I got the term &quot;inherent notability&quot; from [[Special:Permalink/1099239489#Notability of train stations|this RfC]], and inherent in this case should mean the same as &quot;presumed&quot; —'''Matrix(!)''' &lt;nowiki&gt;{&lt;/nowiki&gt;''[[User:Matrix|user]] - [[User talk:Matrix|talk?]] - [[Special:Contribs/Matrix|&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;s&gt;useless&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;contributions]]''&lt;nowiki&gt;}&lt;/nowiki&gt; 17:33, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2''', {{ec}}while railway stations can be helpful to readers, I think its safe to say that it should fall under GNG. Just like why we don't have an article on YouTubers with over 1 million subs. [https://www.youtube.com/@ThatMumboJumbo Mumbo Jumbo] with 9.4m subs is a good reason why something is popular, doesn't always deserve an article. It has been deleted not [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mumbo Jumbo (YouTuber)|once]], but [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mumbo Jumbo (YouTuber) (2nd nomination)|twice]]. However, we do have an article on [[Geoff Marshall]] with 335k subs, a railfan youtuber as he's been reported by the BBC multiple times. [[User:JuniperChill|JuniperChill]] ([[User talk:JuniperChill|talk]]) 17:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC) * '''Option 2''', with the caveat that I suspect every UK station meets the GNG anyway, given the volume of writing in English on UK railway topics. In that sense this RfC strikes me as a no-op; Option 2 reaffirms that status quo. I disagree emphatically with Voorts' suggestion that only fifty stations in the UK are notable and am curious what they're basing that on. [[User:Mackensen|Mackensen]] [[User_talk:Mackensen|(talk)]] 17:50, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:I doubt all nearly 3000 of the stations are notable. Also &quot;writing on UK railway topics&quot; broadly does not establish notability for each and every individual station. The main thing this RfC should establish is that arguments at AfD asserting all British railway stations are automatically notable without providing sources must be ignored and in fact be considered disruptive. [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 17:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:I said {{tq|I'd be surprised if 50 of them met GNG}}, not that only 50 of them actually meet GNG. I'm basing that on the fact that most railway stations in the world are small and not architecturally or culturally significant, and that most of what's written about individual railway stations are basic information like their schedules. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 18:08, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *::I agree. I'd guess 1% fully meet GNG and maybe 10% are &quot;close enough&quot; when given some leniency because they have a bit of a geographic component. The latter are when they have substantial sourcing with more depth of coverage. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 20:12, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:::@[[User:North8000|North8000]] A topic meets the GNG or it doesn't. You're saying that articles on 2,700 railway stations in the UK do not meet the GNG. I'm assured by my colleague below that no one's contemplating a purge. Please explain what you envision the future of these articles to be. [[User:Mackensen|Mackensen]] [[User_talk:Mackensen|(talk)]] 23:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *::::IMO nobody would would work on a mass purge. Maybe a few AFD's on current articles. The main thing is that it would reinforce/clarify that new articles are subject to that standard. Sincerely, &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 00:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::If editors wish to take particularly poorly sourced individual articles to AfD, I'd support that but it's something that should happen over time, not heaps at once to overwhelm AfD or editors. [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 08:49, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::::::Well... they really shouldn't. See [[WP:NEXIST]]. Notability doesn't depend on the number of sources [[WP:Glossary#cited]] in the article. It depends on the number of sources [[Wikipedia:Published]] in the real world. If you see poorly sourced individual articles on a subject that is likely to be notable (e.g., listed historical buildings or railway stations), then you could find and add sources yourself, or you could add a request like {{tl|more sources}} to encourage other editors to do that work, but you shouldn't take it to AFD, because [[Wikipedia:Deletion is not cleanup]]. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 23:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 1''' per the arguments of [[User:Garuda3|Garuda3]]. Anyone salivating at the prospect of deleting lots of stations are likely to be disappointed, as the sheer volume of printed material on the British railway system is such that even minor stations will have mentions in multiple books/almanacs etc. So I doubt this will get very far, but it is certainly a big and pointless waste of editor time and energy. [[User:G-13114|G-13114]] ([[User talk:G-13114|talk]]) 20:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:{{tq|such that even minor station will have mentions in multiple books/almanacs etc.}} &quot;Mentions&quot; are generally not significant coverage, per [[WP:SIGCOV]]: &quot;Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention&quot;. Being listed in a book or almanac, or even multiple books or almanacs, doesn't make a train station notable. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 20:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:(ec)Generally these end up with dealing with handling new articles rather that mass deletions, much less &quot;salivating&quot;. But the question and criteria is ''in-depth'' coverage by a published independent source, not mentions. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 20:22, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *::I have books which give at least a page or more of information regarding station's histories, architecture, layout etc. Given that most stations are 100+ years old, that's generally quite a lot of history. [[User:G-13114|G-13114]] ([[User talk:G-13114|talk]]) 20:33, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:::If a station has 1-2 pages of material in a source, that is something to invoke to establish GNG (or &quot;close enough&quot;) compliance. That's not what I've seen at the bulk of these articles.&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 00:15, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::::Sources are required to exist, not be present in every article right now. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 00:23, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Moot'''. Whether the stations are inherently notable or not is not a relevant question, because they are all actually notable. Only some stations have easily googleable in-depth coverage online, probably circa most have in-depth coverage online when you spend time looking in detail but I have yet to see any evidence that any currently open National Rail station in Great Britain has no significant coverage when people take the time to actually look for offline sources rather than just assume that because the first two pages on Google are filled with results aimed at rail passengers that represents the sum-total of information out there. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 20:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *:Of all the comments here, this one from @[[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] resonates the most with me. If you think that a British rail station has ever been created, even in some tiny town, without the nearest newspaper taking note of it – probably repeatedly, and probably the neighboring towns' papers, too, either to rejoice in the existence of a nearby service or to bemoan the fate that sent all that commercial bounty to another town – you've not been paying attention. Yes, it sometimes requires time and effort to find older sources. Yes, the article might need an editor whose source-finding skills (or perseverance) are a bit above average. But notability isn't restricted to &quot;subjects for which Prof Google provides obvious sources&quot;. It's for sources that require knowing about railway magazines and newspapers archives and local history books, too. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 05:07, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::That's fine, in that case the station will pass GNG. That's all people are asking for. But articles without sources frankly shouldn't be created. The [[WP:BURDEN|burden lies with the creator]] to add sources when creating articles. [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 08:45, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:::{{replyto|AusLondonder}} Are there any articles about British Rail stations that are without sources? If so, who has been creating them? If it's a newbie who has never created an article at all, and this is their first attempt, let's help them out. If it's somebody with years of evidence who is [[WP:MEATBOT]]ting out new unsourced articles, why are we not talking to them directly? --[[User:Redrose64|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit&quot;&gt;Red&lt;/span&gt;rose64]] &amp;#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 17:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::::Isn't the issue here that most od these articles were created two decades ago when sourcing/notability requirements were much looser, and now that some editors are bringing good faith AfD noms, the responses are &quot;keep it must be notable&quot; instead of actually providing those sources that are claimed to exist? [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 17:48, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::Probably not. [[:Category:Railway stations in Great Britain]] contains 9,745 articles (subcat depth of 3), and it has only 18 articles in [[:Category:Articles lacking sources]]. [https://petscan.wmcloud.org/?ns%5B0%5D=1&amp;pagepile=&amp;ores_prob_to=&amp;ores_prob_from=&amp;rxp_filter=&amp;templates_any=&amp;smaller=&amp;referrer_url=&amp;project=wikipedia&amp;edits%5Bflagged%5D=both&amp;outlinks_no=&amp;categories=Railway+stations+in+Great+Britain%0D%0AArticles+lacking+sources&amp;wikidata_item=no&amp;langs_labels_yes=&amp;min_redlink_count=1&amp;cb_labels_any_l=1&amp;sitelinks_no=&amp;depth=3&amp;manual_list_wiki=&amp;format=html&amp;interface_language=en&amp;show_soft_redirects=both&amp;output_compatability=catscan&amp;sortorder=ascending&amp;sortby=ns_title&amp;ns%5B1%5D=1&amp;minlinks=&amp;search_max_results=500&amp;maxlinks=&amp;links_to_any=&amp;cb_labels_yes_l=1&amp;search_wiki=&amp;edits%5Banons%5D=both&amp;language=en&amp;search_query=&amp;subpage_filter=either&amp;sitelinks_yes=&amp;referrer_name=&amp;common_wiki=auto&amp;active_tab=tab_categories&amp;cb_labels_no_l=1&amp;outlinks_yes=&amp;wpiu=any&amp;doit=] I haven't checked the numbers for a while, but I believe that one unref'd article out of every ~550 is a lower rate of unref'd articles than average. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 23:08, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2''' Full disclosure, I was the one who started the last train station notability RfC in 2022. I am dismayed to see people basically ignoring the consensus from that RfC. To those who claim &quot;so much has been written about these stations that they're all notable!&quot;, I say it should be very easy to show significant coverage in a few sources and show GNG is met for a given station if this is true. People cried that all the train stations would be purged last time, and that has not happened. Hardly anyone was calling for that, and I certainly wasn't then and I am not calling for that now. It would not happen after this RfC either. Many, if not most active train stations are notable ''because they clear GNG on their own merits'', not just because they are train stations. That is not a get out of jail free card to write stubs with 1 non-independent reference and then claim nobody can ever challenge said stubs on notability grounds. [[User:Trainsandotherthings|Trainsandotherthings]] ([[User talk:Trainsandotherthings|talk]]) 20:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2'''. This is far too specific and local of a category to have its own special notability cutout. They may well all be individually notable but that should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis through our regular notability guidelines rather than by fiat. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 23:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC) *Moot, per Thryduulf. I can see why someone would think a tiny rural halt or boring suburban station wouldn't be notable (as in the subject of in-depth coverage in reliable sources, not to be confused with &quot;I personally don't think this is important&quot;) but there is a huge volume of literature on the UK railway network, including full-length books on rural branch lines. Openings and closures are extensively documented in the local press and the railway magazines. Of course, many of them are over 150 years old so that coverage may not be easily found online, but most public buildings or infrastructure of that age will be notable. I dislike the concept of inherent or presumed notability but if we had 2,500 AfDs I can't imagine many of them resulting in deletion. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:Nobody's asking to have 2,500 AfDs. They're just asking that people not make spurious arguments during those AfD discussions. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 11:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::There's no need to make spurious arguments. The stations will almost all, if not all, be notable if anyone does the necessary research. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:07, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:::This RfC was sparked by an AfD where many of the !votes were effectively &quot;keep, every British train station is notable&quot;, notwithstanding the broader 2022 RfC that found no train station is inherently notable. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 13:30, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::::Every British railway station is notable. Not because they are inherently notable, but because so much has been written about them that in-depth sourcing is available for every single one if you take the time to look beyond page 2 of google. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 17:09, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::See my latest comment in the discussion section below. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 17:45, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2''' There is nothing specially encyclopaedic about British (or any other) railway stations, though in the UK they are so well covered by both historical and current news, and such an extensive literature has grown up around them, that it is hard to find one without decent coverage. We just need to go and find it, not create stubs and hope. &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Verbarson|Verbarson]] ([[User talk:Verbarson#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Verbarson|contribs]]) 11:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; *:It's a bit of a moot point, as all the articles already exist. [[User:Garuda3|Garuda3]] ([[User talk:Garuda3|talk]]) 12:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2''' being British (and I should know) does not confer automatic notability, they should be subject to our policies like every other station. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:31, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2''' there is no such thing as inherent notability. As for this being moot, maybe. But, the trick will be finding this more than passing coverage rather than vapidly stating that it much exist somewhere. --[[User:Guerillero|Guerillero]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Guerillero|&lt;span style=&quot;color: green;&quot;&gt;Parlez Moi&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2.''' I do not believe in the notion that they are inherently notable. Hypothetically if 200 stations exist, and 199 of them are notable and have coverage, and 1 does not have coverage at all and is not notable, it is not made notable by virtue of every other station being notable. Honestly, the idea that British stations '''''in particular''''' would be the exception to a rule feels a bit Anglocentric. Is every train station in Japan notable? Is every train station in China notable? India? Around the world? The argument presented is that a newspaper somewhere at some point surely mentioned it, and that much is also the case for most trainstations around the world and, yet, there is no exception being carved out for them. Inclusion in the encyclopedia required verifiability, and notability is established by verifiable sources. If such sources exist, they should be found and cited in the article, otherwise, it should not exist simply because &quot;all the others do&quot;. --&lt;b&gt;[[User:BrocadeRiverPoems|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:vivaldi; color:Purple;&quot;&gt;Brocade River Poems (She/They)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/b&gt; 19:10, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:How in any way does deleting one station article in a set of 200 benefit readers? It's going to cause confusion as to why one article isn't there and make it harder for people to find the information they're looking for. [[User:Garuda3|Garuda3]] ([[User talk:Garuda3|talk]]) 22:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::{{tq|How in any way does deleting one station article in a set of 200 benefit readers? It's going to cause confusion as to why one article isn't there}} *::Because if there are no verifiable sources, it does not go in the encyclopedia. Per [[WP:Verifiability]] {{tq|All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable.}} Per [[WP:BURDEN]] {{tq|The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material}} and per [[WP:N]] {{tq|Information on Wikipedia must be verifiable; if no reliable, independent sources can be found on a topic, then it should not have a separate article}}. *::Likewise [[WP:NRV]] {{tq|No subject is automatically or inherently notable merely because it exists}}. As [[WP:NOTDONE]] says, the Encyclopedia will never be finished, ergo, missing one station out of 200 is of no real harm. ''Carving out an exception for '''one specific country''' is wholly unnecessary''. &lt;b&gt;[[User:BrocadeRiverPoems|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:vivaldi; color:Purple;&quot;&gt;Brocade River Poems (She/They)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/b&gt; 02:27, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *:::It's possible for a subject to have &quot;verifiable sources&quot; and still &quot;not meet the [[WP:GNG]]&quot;. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 04:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *::::Yes, and in that case,'' it still doesn't belong in the encyclopedia'' even if all 199 other stations do. &lt;b&gt;[[User:BrocadeRiverPoems|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:vivaldi; color:Purple;&quot;&gt;Brocade River Poems (She/They)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/b&gt; 05:25, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::I believe you will find that [[WP:FAILN]] and [[WP:EP]] have different ideas about whether verifiable information belongs &quot;in the encyclopedia&quot;. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 06:26, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *::::::Frankly, I do not understand what you are even arguing. If a subject fails [[WP:GNG]], it usually doesn't have verifiable sources. None of what you are posting, or linking, contradicts what I have said. Material with no verifiable sources automatically fails [[WP:GNG]] and does not go in the encyclopedia. GNG quite literally says {{tq|A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list '''''when it has received &lt;u&gt;significant coverage in reliable sources&lt;/u&gt; that are independent of the subject'''''.}} *::::::Per [[WP:RS]] {{tq|Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). '''&lt;u&gt;If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it&lt;/u&gt;'''.}} *::::::&amp;&amp; *::::::{{tq|The policy on sourcing is Wikipedia:Verifiability, which requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations. The verifiability policy is strictly applied to all material in the mainspace—articles, lists, and sections of articles—without exception, and in particular to biographies of living persons, which states:}} *::::::Emphasis my own. *::::::Reliable sources are how we establish verifiability. If there are no verifiable sources the article ipso facto fails notability and does not belong in the encyclopedia. Saying if there are no verifiable sources the article does not go in the encyclopedia is not the same anything that is verifiable does. *::::::If a source does not have any verifiable sources, it is not notable. At no point did I say anything with a verifiable source goes in the encyclopedia. &lt;b&gt;[[User:BrocadeRiverPoems|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:vivaldi; color:Purple;&quot;&gt;Brocade River Poems (She/They)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/b&gt; 00:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::::Hello, @[[User:BrocadeRiverPoems|BrocadeRiverPoems]], *:::::::Sorry for my confusing reply. I would have explained in more detail if I'd noticed earlier that your account is only six weeks old. We get used to talking in confusing [[WP:UPPERCASE]] jargon and forget that there are helpful new people trying to make sense of it. *:::::::You are correct that everything must be [[WP:Glossary#verifiable]]. Verifiable means that at least one source has been [[WP:Published]] in the real world (←absolute requirement, all content, with zero exceptions), and that this source is considered &quot;reliable&quot; [[Wikipedia:RSCONTEXT|for the specific statement]]. It is the best practice (but ''not'' technically a requirement, except for [[Wikipedia:MINREF|four common and important types of content]]) [[Wikipedia:Glossary#cited|to cite]] at least one reliable source that [[WP:Directly supports]] the specific statement. *:::::::It's possible to have a source that is reliable for a given statement, but which does not confer notability. For example, {{tl|Cite tweet}} is used for verifiability purposes in 41,000 articles, but it is not the kind of source that the [[WP:GNG]] accepts. Similarly, we use {{tl|cite press release}} in 73,000 articles (and more [[press releases]] are cited without using the template), but a press release never counts towards notability. *:::::::For example: if the sentence is &quot;Mayor Ma announced that she is retiring&quot;, then you could cite that to a social media post or press release from Mayor Ma herself. Those sources would be ''reliable''. But the mayor talking about herself does not make her ''notable'' (←no [[Wikipedia:Separate, stand-alone article]] about her). *:::::::When you have sources that verify the content but do not confer notability, then it is sometimes best to put the content in a related article about a notable subject. For example, if we decide that Mayor Ma is not notable, then perhaps we would put the verifiable information in an article about the {{fake link|Mayors of Smallville}} or in {{fake link|Smallville#Mayors}}. That approach keeps in the information &quot;in the encyclopedia&quot; without creating an article on a non-notable subject. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 04:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *::::::::Understood! Thank you! &lt;b&gt;[[User:BrocadeRiverPoems|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:vivaldi; color:Purple;&quot;&gt;Brocade River Poems (She/They)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/b&gt; 04:37, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::Your answer doesn't address how it benefits readers. We're talking about a completed set here so you're not preventing any new articles being created. What is the benefit to readers of deleting one article in a completed set? I can name some drawbacks: *:::::*Inconsistency - there may be confusion as the casual reader expects to find a page (through Wikipedia or through Google) but there isn't one there *:::::*Wasted editor time arguing about deletion and then having to restore the article should we decide we actually do want an article on the subject *:::::*The article won't appear in [[Special:Nearby]] making it harder to discover for people who use that feature *:::::[[User:Garuda3|Garuda3]] ([[User talk:Garuda3|talk]]) 08:10, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *::::::This isn't about deleting any article, though, and is grossly offtopic. This is about whether or not the British National Rail should get special privileges. Nothing is innately notable. [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]]. There is no requirement to have {{tq|a complete set}} of anything if it is not notable. Notability is the basic requirement for inclusion. If it is inherently notable on the basis that a source exists somewhere, then find the source. An article doesn't get to exist just because other articles of a similar nature exist. There is nothing inherently special about '''''British railway stations''''' that necessitates carving out an exception specifically for them. It borders on [[WP:NATIONALIST]] to infer that the British National Rail system is somehow exceptional compared to every other rail system, so much so that it is above the rules which everything else is held to. You are arguing about how does it help the user, and I am telling you that according to policy having unverified information hurts the encyclopedia. &lt;b&gt;[[User:BrocadeRiverPoems|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:vivaldi; color:Purple;&quot;&gt;Brocade River Poems (She/They)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/b&gt; 00:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::::There is no unverified information here - National Rail has information on all stations. Train Operating Companies will have information on the stations they serve. We have photos of every station. It's not exceptional because it's British, its exceptional because all articles ''already exist''. The reason why this RfC was setup in the first place was because an article was nominated for deletion and the result was keep - it's clear this is about wanting to delete articles. [[User:Garuda3|Garuda3]] ([[User talk:Garuda3|talk]]) 09:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *::::::::@[[User:BrocadeRiverPoems|BrocadeRiverPoems]] I think you're confusing notability (which tries to be an objective standard) with importance (which is subjective). This group of objects is notable in the sense that (almost?) all are the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent sources. I would imagine most stations in most other countries are probably notable as well because transport infrastructure tends to be well written about. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2'''. I will never accept the notion of inherent notability in any topic area and will oppose that concept whenever it comes up. And the notion that only ''British'' train stations are inherently notable as opposed to train stations in France or Germany or Spain or any other country is utterly bizarre. The English Wikipedia is the English language encyclopedia of the entire world, not the encyclopedia of the English speaking world. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 23:28, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:British railway stations being inherently notable would not imply anything about railway stations in any other part of the world. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 08:54, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *::It would imply that Wikipedia is Anglo-centric and makes special exceptions for British culture. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 11:44, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *:::Why on earth do you get that impression? X being inherently notable implies nothing about whether things that are not X are or are not inherently notable. It's a simple statement of provable fact that all British railway stations are notable based on the coverage in independent reliable sources. I would be surprised if the same were not true of some other country's stations too (I don't know enough about the literature regarding railways in other countries to be sure, but remember one would need to look at e.g. French language sources to determine this for France.). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 11:50, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *::::There is a big difference in principle between &quot;we have checked all examples of X and they all happen to meet our general notability standards&quot; and &quot;we are going to declare that all X are automatically notable and are not subject to our general notability standards&quot;, even when the outcome (that all X are notable) does not differ. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 13:18, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::There should though be some way of communicating {{tpq|we have checked all examples of X and they all happen to meet our general notability standards}} to editors such that they don't waste their and others time nominating them for deletion. Whether you call that &quot;inherent notability&quot; or something else, the effect is the same. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 20:35, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *::::::One way to communicate that would be to make sure that all those articles actually cite as references all of those in-depth sources that surely exist. Nominators are supposed to follow [[WP:BEFORE]] and find those references themselves but we all know they often don't. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 11:45, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::::Obviously all the articles citing the sources is ideal, but Wikipedia is a work in progress and there are far more stations than editors with access to those sources so even if everybody dropped everything else and worked full time on improving only articles about current National Rail stations it would take some time get it to that state (and articles about other notable subjects will be deleted in the meanwhile as these editors would not be defending them at AfD). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 12:26, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *::::: Create an SNG that says that. Also, ''has'' someone checked every single British rail station for notability? At least one good faith AfD nominator couldn't find sources during their BEFORE search, given the AfD that lead to this RfC, and others claiming that most British railroad stations are notable here have admitted during this discussion that there are at least a some British rail stations that lack notability. Finally, {{tq|we have checked all examples of X}} is in the eye of the beholder: there would have to be some sort of consensus, rather than a LOCALCON amongst editors who focus on Britain/railroads, that the sources that have been found do in fact establish notability. That does not exist right now. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 20:42, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *::::::An AfD nominator not finding sources during a BEFORE search is not evidence of a lack of sources, especially given the comments about how insubstantial the check is required to be (as much as something robustly asserted to be option can be said to be required). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 20:50, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::::{{tq|An AfD nominator not finding sources during a BEFORE search is not evidence of a lack of sources}} I am not saying that and I agree with that point. If you want people to have to do a SUPER-BEFORE search before bringing an AfD for a British railroad station, establish a consensus for that. Otherwise, once the BEFORE search is done, the burden shifts to the keep !voters to establish notability. As I have noted in other parts of this discussion, that means they need to say more than &quot;every British railroad station is notable&quot;; they need to actually provide some citations to SIGCOV in reliable sources. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 20:56, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *::::::::The problem with WP:BEFORE is this: you can't prove a negative. If somebody says &quot;there are no sources for this claim&quot;, you don't know whether it actually means &quot;I have spent several days checking various websites, books, magazines etc. and cannot find a single published source that supports the claim&quot; or &quot;I can't be bothered looking properly so instead I'll ''say'' that there are no sources, even if perhaps there really are&quot;. Also, when they say &quot;there are no sources for this claim&quot;, this will be defeated by the first person to find a reliable source which ''does'' support the claim. Negatives can't be proved, only disproved. --[[User:Redrose64|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit&quot;&gt;Red&lt;/span&gt;rose64]] &amp;#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 19:40, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::That's how the AfD system works. We presume that the nominator has done a good faith BEFORE search, and if nobody comes forward with a valid argument to keep or sources demonstrating notability, we delete the article or enact some other ATD. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 19:54, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::Also how the AfD system works: If you get a reputation for nominating articles about notable subjects for which sources are easily found, then we can [[WP:TBAN]] you. It takes a lot to reach this point, but it is possible. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 05:21, 18 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2''', which in effect means that option 1 covers 99%+ of all railway stations in the British Isles, even the [[Berney Arms railway station|smallest]] and those that [[Lullingstone railway station|never opened]]. [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 07:36, 12 September 2024 (UTC) * Obviously '''Option 2''', but this is moot - the level of literature that exists on British railway infrastructure and stations means that there will always be sources easily passing GNG for any station. As an example, my local station has only five trains a day, is used by &lt;10 people a day on average, is pretty much in the middle of nowhere and yet its article has eight good sources, including five books. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 19:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *:Who's publishing these books? Rail enthusiast organizations? The railroad itself? Academic presses? Did the books go through rigorous editorial processes or are they yarns spun by local historians? [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 20:44, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *::Taking a random small station, [[Brading railway station]], as an example there are no sources by enthusiasts, local historians, or any of the companies that have operated trains there. The two books sources were written by a respected author and subject matter expert published by a respected publishing house. Of the other sources, several are from [[Historic England]], several from news sources including BBC News and a local news website (whose standing I don't know), one source by the current tennant of the station buildings is used to verify the current use of the station buildings and one from [[National Rail]] (semi-independent of the operator) is being used only to verify the current service level and pattern. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 21:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *:::Thank you. I hope you can see why it's kind of frustrating when these discussions rely on claims about how all these sources about British rail stations exist, but only provide those sources when they're asked to. The burden is not on everyone else to become familiar with British railroad stations and the books about them. If the keep !votes in the AfD that sparked this RfC had provided sources in the first place instead of relying on &quot;keep, this thing is notable because all of them are notable&quot;, then we wouldn't be here having this discussion. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 21:12, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *::::The problem is that, while ''some'' (and perhaps even ''most'') small stations have plenty of sources to establish notability (I don’t think anyone was arguing that this doesn’t happen), we can not say that they ''all'' have similar sources. *::::The question is “what to do about those that DON’T have proper sourcing?” [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 21:51, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::''If'' there are any stations that don't have proper sourcing (and given that despite being repeatedly asked to, nobody has yet provided an example of a current National Rail station that fits this criteria) then we should do for every other non-notable member of a notable set of which at least a significant proportion of members are notable (something that unquestionably applies here): merge and redirect to the the most appropriate higher-level article (for railway stations that is usually the line or system they're a part of). The only exception to this would be if we couldn't verify the existence of the station, but even the first page of google hits will verify the existence of a current National Rail station, and ''[https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IwANAAAACAAJ&amp;redir_esc=y The Directory of Railway Stations]'' means that the existence of very nearly every station that existed prior to 1995 can be trivially verified. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 23:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *::::::If by &quot;proper sourcing&quot; Blueboar means something closer to &quot;little blue clicky numbers already in the article&quot;, rather than e.g., &quot;reliable sources in the library&quot;, and if I couldn't find sources myself, then I think for higher-income countries, I'd probably ask at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains]] before starting an AFD. *::::::That said, I once picked a long-defunct railroad station off a map somewhere in the middle of the US and had sources in hand within minutes. In my experience, it is not that hard to find sources, especially if your search strategy is more sophisticated than &quot;Go to www.google.com and see what's on the first page&quot;. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 04:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *::::{{replyto|Voorts}} {{tq|but only provide those sources when they're asked to}} - I have hundreds (not kidding) of books concerning the railways of Great Britain, but I really don't have time to go through every single one of our articles about British Rail stations, and add sources. I don't want to do a half-arsed job, so one by one is the best you can hope for. Name a station, and I'll work on it. But don't pretend that because I've not added sources at a different station's article that automatically means that I don't have the sources. --[[User:Redrose64|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit&quot;&gt;Red&lt;/span&gt;rose64]] &amp;#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 07:53, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::I'm talking about the context of an AfD discussion. I'm not asking you or anyone else to go fix every article right now. If an article is nominated at AfD, you should pull out your books and provide RSes to substantiate your keep !vote so that other editors can take a look at the sources and see if they agree that those sources meet GNG. We operate on consensus, not promises of &quot;I have sources, they provide SIGCOV, but I don't have time to share them or even name them right now&quot;. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 17:12, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *::::::If you're going to !vote keep, your [[WP:NPRESUME|burden]] is to provide evidence of SIGCOV in RSes. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 17:14, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *::::{{replyto|Voorts}} Also, re {{tq|If the keep !votes in the AfD that sparked this RfC had provided sources in the first place instead of relying on &quot;keep, this thing is notable because all of them are notable&quot;}} - does this mean that my making {{diff|Riddlesdown railway station|1244063018|1243766573|these edits}} ''after'' {{diff|Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Riddlesdown railway station|prev|1244053471|my !vote}} renders my !vote invalid? --[[User:Redrose64|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit&quot;&gt;Red&lt;/span&gt;rose64]] &amp;#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 15:09, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *:::::Yes. You could have made the edits first and given a policy based rationale for keeping instead of making several arguments listed at arguments to avoid. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 17:09, 13 September 2024 (UTC) *::::::I disagree. *::::::I sometimes list sources in the AFD discussion; there is a poorer chance of those sources getting added to the article than I could wish. Other times, I add them to the article but don't name them in the AFD. There is no reason to think that one approach demonstrates notability better than the other, and it's just silly to say that the order of the edits, especially when the edits are made within an hour of each other, makes any difference at all. *::::::The fact is that there are subjects for which notability is widely understood to be demonstrable. You do not need to show up at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Earth]] with a new list of sources. Anyone familiar with the subject area knows what the outcome will be. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 05:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 2'''—absolutely, undeniably obviously. [[User:AirshipJungleman29|&amp;#126;~ AirshipJungleman29]] ([[User talk:AirshipJungleman29|talk]]) 10:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC) *:Why is it &quot;undeniably obviously&quot;? Given that there are good faith arguments given above for option 1, it clearly isn't either undeniable or obvious to everyone. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 10:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC) :'''Option 1''' per Garuda and G-13114. [[User:Cremastra|Cremastra]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 02:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC) :'''Option 2'''. We have no evidence that 95%+ of these stations are likely to meet GNG. Bare assertions that they ''do'', based on the assumption that they would have garnered local press, are not evidence, they are personal opinions. The status quo -- achieved recently, via very wide consensus -- is to require GNG be met, so the onus is entirely on anyone wishing to change it to demonstrate the change is warranted. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 23:02, 17 September 2024 (UTC) :'''Option 2'''. They do not have inherent notability but can be included in a list of stations as suggested by several other editors. [[User:CurryCity|CurryCity]] ([[User talk:CurryCity|talk]]) 20:15, 20 September 2024 (UTC) :'''Option 2'''. Per the general rule of no inherent notability and taking WP:BURDEN seriously is the foundation on which content policies can even begin to function. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 13:48, 21 September 2024 (UTC) *I don't much agree with the current notability guidelines, but if there was consensus about it, then... ok (I don't know how much time needs to pass before you can try to change the existing consensus). But British National rail stations are not inherently notable simply because they are British. Regarding consistency for a reader, all content about non-notable stations should be merged into one general article about the line/route.--[[User:Oloddin|Oloddin]] ([[User talk:Oloddin|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Comment'''. I'm not sure we need a specific note to the effect, but in fact they're all notable. Vast amounts have been written about the British railway network, covering every single passenger station. They all clearly meet [[WP:GNG]]. This is in no way &quot;it's British so it's notable&quot;, but &quot;it meets GNG so it's notable&quot;. There's no reason whatsoever for any British passenger station to be brought to AfD. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 10:45, 2 October 2024 (UTC) * '''Oppose''' (as a railfan who used to sing ''The SLow Train'' from memory). Notability is established by the number of reliable sources directly about the subject. There is no such thing as &quot;inherent notability&quot;, because Wikipedia is not a directory. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' &lt;small&gt;([[user talk:JzG|help!]] - [[User:JzG/Typos|typo?]])&lt;/small&gt; 21:32, 2 October 2024 (UTC) *All open mainline British railway stations are going to be notable and we shouldn’t be pretending they are not. A subject specific notability guide is useful in this case because a lot of the sources exist only in dead tree form so hammering a search engine of your choice will miss a lot. For anyone wanting to question this go check out the local history section of any British library. Its actually rather frustrating since you can be having a hard time finding wider local history but the railway stuff is extremely well covered. The articles all already exist (ok a handful of new stations open every year but that's minor) so its not a question of new page patrol but avoiding a bunch of pointless AFDs.[[User:Geni|©Geni]] ([[User talk:Geni|talk]]) 06:40, 19 October 2024 (UTC) *:New station openings these days make national news, cf. [[Ashley Down railway station]]. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 14:43, 19 October 2024 (UTC) * ''De jure'' the answer may be Option 2, but ''de facto'' (as others have noted) it is going to be '''Option 1'''. &lt;br /&gt;It's also interesting to me to look at the article that was sent to AfD that precipitated this discussion. Here's the state of it when it was nominated: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Riddlesdown_railway_station&amp;oldid=1243766573]. It seems to me that, even in that state, there is a lot of information on that article that is useful to our readers: where the station is on the map, a view of the location, which Travelcard zone it is in, which line it is on, when it opened, which train operating company runs it at the moment, how much it has been used over the last 5 years, etc, etc. It seems to me that the best way to present this information is as a self-standing article, rather than having to lose some of it, and/or jam it into an omnibus article as one topic amongst many. And the same is going to be true for any station on the UK network. I think I can understand the frustration of some who might wish the article had had more references, and who might wish to motivate others to try to find them, or to dig out more information about the station, both its history and any other information about its current nature / activity / status. But the reality is that if articles like this get sent to AfD they are not going to be deleted. And they should not be. [[User:Jheald|Jheald]] ([[User talk:Jheald|talk]]) 19:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC) * '''Option 2''' Topics aren't inherently notable. They need sources to avoid misinformation and bias. I might grant that many of these do have sources, somewhere. But certainly not all. And there is a [[WP:BURDEN]] to provide sources if something is contested. I don't want this to be a call for mass deletion, but nor is it a pass for endless stubs and unsourced material. It is still important to document best practices, and hopefully editors can work collaboratively in this topic area. (e.g.: consider alternatives like merging, redirecting, re-organizing, giving ample time for improvement with reasonable timelines...) [[User:Shooterwalker|Shooterwalker]] ([[User talk:Shooterwalker|talk]]) 14:08, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *:{{tpq| I might grant that many of these do have sources, somewhere. But certainly not all.}} so why has nobody been able to find a single instance of such a station not having sources, despite many attempts by many people over several years? [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 14:13, 20 November 2024 (UTC) Did a quick count (it did say it was a poll) after 10 weeks. (Rounding) 14% said Option 1, 79% said option #2 (not inherently/presumed notable) and 7% said &quot;moot&quot; without choosing one of the others. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 15:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC) === Discussion re Notability and British Rail stations=== Is it worthwhile pinging participants of the prior RFC? -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 16:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC) :Probably not. I would advertise this at TCENT and VPP. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 16:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC) ::I've advertised this at VPP, I think TCENT is unnecessary since it's not that big of a policy change. —'''Matrix(!)''' &lt;nowiki&gt;{&lt;/nowiki&gt;''[[User:Matrix|user]] - [[User talk:Matrix|talk?]] - [[Special:Contribs/Matrix|&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;s&gt;useless&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;contributions]]''&lt;nowiki&gt;}&lt;/nowiki&gt; 20:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC) I only have a moment before I have to log off, but before I prepare a more considered response in the next few days could I ask please what sort of sources would be considered {{xt|reliable sources '''that are independent of the subject'''}} (my emphasis) in this context? Or, to turn it round, what sort of sources would not be considered sufficiently independent? I am thinking particularly of book sources, not online sources. &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Helvetica;&quot;&gt;[[User:Hassocks5489|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #00BFFF;&quot;&gt;Hassocks&lt;/b&gt;]][[User talk:Hassocks5489|&lt;span style=&quot;color: #228B22;&quot;&gt;5489&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color: #C71585;&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt; (Floreat Hova!)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 17:51, 10 September 2024 (UTC) :Same as any other case, really&amp;mdash;was the source (in this case the book) written and published ''independently'' of the rail operator? If someone who studies mass transit or the like, but is unaffiliated with the railway operator and was not directed in what they were doing by them, writes a book, that's an independent source. Similarly if, for instance, someone unaffiliated with the railway writes a book about the history of an area, and mentions the importance of the train station in context of that, then that would be independent. If the railway writes or publishes a book, or commissions someone to do so, that is not independent. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 18:07, 10 September 2024 (UTC) :There's quite extensive scholarship around trains pretty much everywhere, but the British in particular love writing about them. You can find reliable secondary sources on almost anything regarding trains in the U.K. These are books often written by enthusiasts, but if there are the things we normally look for like editorial control and independence they are absolutely usable sources. There are also many periodicals which can be used as sources. I'm American so I can't really name any in particular, but there are sources out there for most train stations. What we can't use are things like timetables or self-published fan sites. Directory or database listings seldom mean anything for GNG. There are directories of every station to ever exist in the U.K., but if all they have is an opening and closing date and where the station was located, that doesn't help notability at all. [[User:Trainsandotherthings|Trainsandotherthings]] ([[User talk:Trainsandotherthings|talk]]) 21:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC) :{{replyto|Hassocks5489}} Can you point to any articles about British Rail stations that are based ''purely'' on non-independent sources? If you can't, can you suggest any where the majority of the content is from non-independent sources? --[[User:Redrose64|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit&quot;&gt;Red&lt;/span&gt;rose64]] &amp;#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 21:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC) ::I haven't looked in detail at any station articles since this discussion started, as I have been away from home; I just wanted to seek clarification over what &quot;independent&quot; means in relation to this particular topic, and [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]]'s comment confirmed that what I thought was correct. I didn't want to start listing books that have substantial coverage (or using them to edit station articles) only to find that they were not considered independent. &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Helvetica;&quot;&gt;[[User:Hassocks5489|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #00BFFF;&quot;&gt;Hassocks&lt;/b&gt;]][[User talk:Hassocks5489|&lt;span style=&quot;color: #228B22;&quot;&gt;5489&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color: #C71585;&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt; (Floreat Hova!)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 08:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC) I'm one of those old school Wikipedia editors who cannot believe that these discussions are being held. Having created some of those articles right at the start of my Wikipedia 'career' I watched as the format editors created alongside me was adopted for all 2,000+ stations here and overseas. To now consider that all that work is to be expunged is deeply depressing. This is not what Wikipedia was supposed to be about. [[User:Doktorbuk|doktorb]] &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Doktorbuk|words]]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Doktorbuk|deeds]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC) :Notability guidelines were way looser back then, and for better or for worse, the community has tightened them up. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 20:17, 10 September 2024 (UTC) ::In most (but not all) cases, significantly for the worse. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 20:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC) :::Complete agreement. We worked to make an encyclopedia. Now apparently it's just a greatest hits. Disappointed. [[User:Doktorbuk|doktorb]] &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Doktorbuk|words]]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Doktorbuk|deeds]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:18, 10 September 2024 (UTC) ::::An encyclopaedia is not for original writing. For our own credibility as a source what we publish simply must be verified by reliable sources. [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 08:51, 11 September 2024 (UTC) :::::{{replyto|Doktorbuk}} &quot;all that work is to be expunged is deeply depressing&quot; - are you suggesting that all or most of the railway station articles that exist in Britain currently do not demonstrate meeting GNG and even with a search for sources won't meet GNG? [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 08:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::I'm saying that I can see where the wind is blowing. Wikipedia is no longer about being encyclopedic, it's clearly about mass deletion of work which doesn't fit very narrow, very exclusive &quot;notability&quot; guidelines. Having articles showing each and every UK railway station is what this place used to promote, including building projects and cooperation. Now it's about pressing delete. I'm too tired and depressed to fight against the new era of this website. Of course we should keep every single UK railway station article, they're a long standing central core of an encyclopedia. But if that makes me an outdated dinosaur, I'm too old to battle against consensus. [[User:Doktorbuk|doktorb]] &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Doktorbuk|words]]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Doktorbuk|deeds]]&lt;/sup&gt; 11:51, 11 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::We used to have articles on each individual Pokemon species too, but we've since tighten our belt to avoid looking like a pop culture catalog. Instead, we want to make sure we serve a broad readership, making sure that we have standalone articles based on significant coverage where possible, and using lists where that cant be done (as would be the case for rail stations). At the same time, UK rail history has been discussed in numerous sources, so that there is a strong likelihood every station could have a standalone page, there just needs to be enough evidence to show that trend towards meeting the GNG for these. If they can't be shown, they can be moved into a list, and we'd still cover them too. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 12:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Drawing parallels between UK railway stations and Pokémon is ridiculous. [[User:Doktorbuk|doktorb]] &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Doktorbuk|words]]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Doktorbuk|deeds]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Not really, both are areas where there are dedicated people extremely well versed in the area and likely have caraloged lots of information gleamed from primary sources that they could write guides on every single one, but where in many cases there is a lack of significant coverage in secondary sources to show us why one specific instance has drawn attention from reliable sources. We allow those article with such coverage to remain and collaose the rest to lists with future potential to expand if more sour ING can be found, using soft redirects to preserve the original articles.&lt;span id=&quot;Masem:1726067494690:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNNotability&quot; class=&quot;FTTCmt&quot;&gt; —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 15:11, 11 September 2024 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt; ::::::: I'm sorry that you feel defeated here, but the requirement that there be at least two or three secondary, independent and reliable sources that significantly cover a topic is not {{tq|narrow}} or {{tq|very exclusive}}. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 11:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::::{{replyto|Doktorbuk}} Should we have articles for ''every'' train station in Japan, Germany, India and China? That's around 30,000 articles. I'd argue no country is exempt from GNG, we should have articles only for stations in any country demonstrated to meet GNG. [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 12:58, 11 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::::I don't know enough about the literature about stations in those countries, but every topic that meets the GNG should have an article. If that means we have an article about every railway station in those countries then that's a good thing. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 17:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::While we have to keep in mind things like [[WP:NOPAGE]], I'm generally in agreement with Thryduulf here. I can't speak as to if the sourcing is there for those stations, but personally I have no opposition to train station articles so long as they meet GNG. For example, we are better off as an encyclopedia by having [[Beijing railway station]] as an article than if we did not. It would be pretty weird for someone with my username to want to delete all the train stations. [[User:Trainsandotherthings|Trainsandotherthings]] ([[User talk:Trainsandotherthings|talk]]) 23:39, 11 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::::@[[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] as I say, I feel deflated and beaten by discussions like this, so really you can do what you will at this point. I created these articles, worked with editors to promote the articles, and now you've come along to delete them all. I'm one man. Just one editor. I've no power. I've no strength. I've no fight. You've won. Delete, delete, delete, you're the victor, I used to matter and I used to count. Wikipedia isn't for creators anymore, you're in charge now. [[User:Doktorbuk|doktorb]] &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Doktorbuk|words]]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Doktorbuk|deeds]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::{{tq|Wikipedia isn't for creators anymore}} I find it rather insulting (as do others in this discussion, I am sure) to be painted as someone who only cares about deleting things just because I don't think British train stations (or any others for that matter) should be exempt from our notability policies. I have spent easily [[User:Trainsandotherthings/Work|hundreds of hours]] of my time creating and expanding articles. AusLondonder has [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AContributions&amp;target=AusLondonder&amp;namespace=0&amp;tagfilter=&amp;newOnly=1&amp;start=&amp;end=&amp;limit=50 created several hundred articles]. It is simply unfair to label anyone who disagrees with you as an evil deletionist who doesn't care about building an encyclopedia. Being a [[doomer]] about Wikipedia doesn't achieve anything. If you choose to stop creating articles or editing altogether, that's your choice, but nobody is kicking you out. I certainly don't think you giving up will help the encyclopedia. And for the record, only one editor here is calling for mass deletions of train station articles, and I commented in opposition to them. [[User:Trainsandotherthings|Trainsandotherthings]] ([[User talk:Trainsandotherthings|talk]]) 23:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *'''Comment''': If any stations were not able to be shown to meet GNG, then merging to (eg) line or locality article should be used over deletion (though sending to AFD rather than locally agreed merge would almost certainly be necessary). That said, if there is actually universal SIGCOV, it would likely be helpful for there to be more than one work listed at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_UK_Railways/Sources#Books]] (and possibly a brief comment of how detailed coverage for [minor] stations is). &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 80%;color:blue&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;~&lt;/sup&gt;[[User:Hydronium Hydroxide|Hydronium&lt;sup&gt;~&lt;/sup&gt;Hydroxide]]&lt;sup&gt;~[[User talk:Hydronium Hydroxide|(Talk)]]~&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:55, 11 September 2024 (UTC) **I am happy to make a start on this as soon as I get home tonight. Based on the discussion above about what counts as independent, which confirms what I thought, I can say that for every station in southeast England at least, I can name at least 5 books which qualify as independent sources and which feature substantial coverage of the station (without just regurgitating the same information.) &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Helvetica;&quot;&gt;[[User:Hassocks5489|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #00BFFF;&quot;&gt;Hassocks&lt;/b&gt;]][[User talk:Hassocks5489|&lt;span style=&quot;color: #228B22;&quot;&gt;5489&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color: #C71585;&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt; (Floreat Hova!)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 08:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:I also agree that the [[Wikipedia:Editing policy]] exists, and that it applies to encyclopedic content that doesn't qualify for a separate article. Content like this should generally be [[WP:PRESERVED]]. *:I add that even if a given station is shown to meet GNG, editors can always follow the notability [[WP:PAGEDECIDE]] model and agree to merge it up to a larger topic just because they think that will be best in some way. I believe this is the typical approach to a [[Request stop]] (=a place that isn't a proper station, but trains stop there upon request). [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 05:14, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::In practise there aren't any request stops in the UK that don't have proper platforms at least. [[User:Garuda3|Garuda3]] ([[User talk:Garuda3|talk]]) 08:38, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:::{{replyto|Garuda3}} There aren't any more, but way back 100 years or so, the Great Western Railway (and possibly other railways) were fitting retractable steps (see [[:File:GWR coach A38 231 retractable steps.jpg|this pic]]) to some of their [[GWR autocoach|auto-trailers]] so that they could pick up/set down at level crossings. Such services didn't stop simply anywhere, but only at those points explicity named in the timetable, and only on request. --[[User:Redrose64|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit&quot;&gt;Red&lt;/span&gt;rose64]] &amp;#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 17:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::::Good clarification, and it's odd bits of info like that that bring me back to Wikipedia. It's the deletion discussions that push me away. [[User:Garuda3|Garuda3]] ([[User talk:Garuda3|talk]]) 22:53, 11 September 2024 (UTC) * '''Question''' Can anyone show me an example of the British station that's claimed to be ''non-''notable ? Before we theorise on how best to hunt them down, do these [[woozle]]s really exist? [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 12:53, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:This should be in the discussion section below. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 13:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:It's right at the top of the RfC. [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Riddlesdown railway station|Riddlesdown station]] is a station I believe is not notable. I checked the [https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk British Newspaper Archive] and [https://www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/search/results/?country=gb&amp;keyword=riddlesdown+station Newspapers.com] and only found passing mentions, notices of greater renovations on the rest of the network, adverts, anecdots etc. Not really SIGCOV. I'm planning to nominate it for deletion later, and same with [[Purley Oaks railway station]] for similar reasons. —'''Matrix(!)''' &lt;nowiki&gt;{&lt;/nowiki&gt;''[[User:Matrix|user]] - [[User talk:Matrix|talk?]] - [[Special:Contribs/Matrix|&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;s&gt;useless&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;contributions]]''&lt;nowiki&gt;}&lt;/nowiki&gt; 17:41, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::* The one that went to AfD and closed as Keep? ''That's'' the one that's the exemplar for non-notability of stations? [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 17:49, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::*:{{ping|Andy Dingley}} I closed it myself as keep as I saw people weren't listening. Per AusLondonder, the AfD just recited arguments not to use in deletion discussions. Then I started this RfC. I plan to start another one later. —'''Matrix(!)''' &lt;nowiki&gt;{&lt;/nowiki&gt;''[[User:Matrix|user]] - [[User talk:Matrix|talk?]] - [[Special:Contribs/Matrix|&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;s&gt;useless&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;contributions]]''&lt;nowiki&gt;}&lt;/nowiki&gt; 17:53, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::*::I don't think that's a good idea. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 23:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::Why - what benefit is there to having a handful of stations missing in what is otherwise a complete set? It creates an inconsistent state for readers and wastes editor time should someone want/need to recreate those station articles in the future. [[User:Garuda3|Garuda3]] ([[User talk:Garuda3|talk]]) 22:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:::'Missing' stations belong in articles about the line (if the line itself is notable), optionally with a redirect from the station name. There is no requirement for every subject covered by WP to have its own article. &lt;span class=&quot;nowrap&quot;&gt;[[User:Verbarson|--&amp;nbsp;Verbarson&amp;nbsp;]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Verbarson|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Verbarson|edits]]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 08:15, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *::::That's all well and good but often there's several historical rail companies plus an article about the modern line plus a town or village article it could be merged to. And you haven't considered how deleting one station article actually benefits the reader. [[User:Garuda3|Garuda3]] ([[User talk:Garuda3|talk]]) 09:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC) :: You should have checked for sources on Riddlesdown Station before you nominated it and after closing the AfD as Keep because you didn't like the thrust of the discussion re-nominating it shortly after could be seen as disruptive in my view, [[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]] ([[User talk:Atlantic306|talk]]) 18:42, 11 September 2024 (UTC) :::{{ping|Atlantic306}} Per above, I did try to check sources. If everyone is saying &quot;keep&quot; there's no point letting the discussion drag on. But of course new information will occur in this RfC that might invalidate previous arguments, and therefore we may re-nominate it. Unrelated sidenote, but if you could avoid [https://www.butte.edu/departments/cas/tipsheets/grammar/run_ons.html run on] sentences this would improve your clarity in the future. —'''Matrix(!)''' &lt;nowiki&gt;{&lt;/nowiki&gt;''[[User:Matrix|user]] - [[User talk:Matrix|talk?]] - [[Special:Contribs/Matrix|&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;s&gt;useless&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;contributions]]''&lt;nowiki&gt;}&lt;/nowiki&gt; 18:49, 11 September 2024 (UTC) ::::Thanks for the grammar link. Where is the guideline that suggests the nominator can close an AfD in order to renominate it later when it has been given more publicity ? [[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]] ([[User talk:Atlantic306|talk]]) 19:00, 11 September 2024 (UTC) :::::As long as no other editor has advanced a delete or redirect rationale, an editor may withdraw their AfD nomination and close it as [[WP:SPEEDYKEEP|speedy keep]]. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 19:15, 11 September 2024 (UTC) :::::: Agree, it's the re-nominating shortly after that is problematic in my view [[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]] ([[User talk:Atlantic306|talk]]) 19:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::Such re-nominations tend to result in people digging in their heels, and more people piling on with accusations that the nom has [[WP:IDHT]] problems. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 23:16, 11 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::::{{ping|WhatamIdoing}} to be honest I withdraw my idea to renominate the article given the sourcing by Redrose64. I do think it is helpful to have this RfC though to avoid future arguments like those present in the initial AfD. —'''Matrix(!)''' &lt;nowiki&gt;{&lt;/nowiki&gt;''[[User:Matrix|user]] - [[User talk:Matrix|talk?]] - [[Special:Contribs/Matrix|&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;&lt;s&gt;useless&lt;/s&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;contributions]]''&lt;nowiki&gt;}&lt;/nowiki&gt; 17:32, 12 September 2024 (UTC) *If all this sourcing exists, then we do not need a special exception as they will pass anyway. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:11, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *:Agree. Some editors have made claims like &quot;I have a dozen books on British railroada that give each station at least 2 pages of coverage&quot; (these books must be at least 10k pages, since presumably they cover other things), but nobody has provided a cite to a single book in this discussion as far as I can see. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 17:42, 11 September 2024 (UTC) *::Very few books will cover every railway station. Consider: there are presently a little over 2,500 railway stations in Great Britain. If one book were to devote one page to each individual station, that book (if printed on 80 gsm paper) would be about five inches thick. It would be much thicker if it also included the thousands of stations that were once open but are now closed. Rather, there are books about railway companies, or railway lines, that often describe the individual stations. There's a prolific series from [https://www.middletonpress.co.uk/ Middleton Press] that has now passed 600 books, and Riddlesdown, the original trigger for this, is given coverahe in their book [https://www.middletonpress.co.uk/books/railways/country-railway-routes/croydon-to-east-grinstead.html Country Railway Routes: Croydon to East Grinstead - including Woodside to Selsdon] along with 17 other stations or locations. --[[User:Redrose64|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit&quot;&gt;Red&lt;/span&gt;rose64]] &amp;#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 17:59, 11 September 2024 (UTC) ::* Quick count on my shelves is that I have [https://www.librarything.com/catalog/Andy_Dingley?tag=railway%20line%20histories 80 books tagged as 'railway line histories'], i.e. those that will be specifically listing stations. Maybe two bookshelves of them. There are also books like Butt that are specifically directories of stations. ::: One point to remember is that there are very few really ''small'' British stations. Those that were are termed 'halts' rather than stations, and practice here (AFAIR) has always been that stations were assumed notable but that halts would have to demonstrate it individually (plenty of halts have been notable for some specific reason). [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 19:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC) ::While I have voted against the idea that British Railways are inherently notable, it is worth noting that there are verifiable sources that mention the station subject of the AfD. [https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Railway_Magazine/oHFIAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=Riddlesdown+Station&amp;pg=PA239&amp;printsec=frontcover] [https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Oxted_Line/VpKGAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;bsq=Riddlesdown+Station&amp;dq=Riddlesdown+Station&amp;printsec=frontcover][https://www.google.com/books/edition/Locomotive_Railway_Carriage_and_Wagon_Re/2pm8xsGXC_EC?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=Riddlesdown+Station&amp;pg=PA231&amp;printsec=frontcover] [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Railways_of_the_Southern_Region/ZEZGAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;bsq=Riddlesdown+railway+station&amp;dq=Riddlesdown+railway+station&amp;printsec=frontcover] &lt;b&gt;[[User:BrocadeRiverPoems|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:vivaldi; color:Purple;&quot;&gt;Brocade River Poems (She/They)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/b&gt; 20:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC) About the RFC: &quot;The question&quot; as shown on the RFC pages is IMO okay, but the expanded version underneath turns it into a [[Double-barreled question]] by introducing the concept of [[Wikipedia:Inherent notability]]. It also provides a [[False dilemma]]. Editors are asked originally whether a specific small subset of articles should be exempt from the relevant SNG. Then this gets expanded and twisted, so that the options are not &quot;Yes, exempt from the relevant SNG&quot; versus &quot;No, not exempt from the relevant SNG&quot;, but instead are &quot;Inherently notable &lt;u&gt;and&lt;/u&gt; exempt from the &lt;u&gt;G&lt;/u&gt;NG&quot; versus &quot;Not inherently notable &lt;u&gt;and&lt;/u&gt; must conform to the &lt;u&gt;G&lt;/u&gt;NG&quot;. There is no space for &quot;Nothing is inherently notable, but it's the &lt;u&gt;S&lt;/u&gt;NG (which names three separate methods of qualifying, only one of which is the &lt;u&gt;G&lt;/u&gt;NG) that applies&quot;, which I suspect is the actual majority POV in the community, much less for &quot;Nothing is inherently notable, but there's no practical difference between inherent notability and the way I understand the GNG (which, for example, actually says that 'multiple sources are generally expected', rather than 'multiple sources are always required', even if editors like [[User:Voorts|voorts]] sometimes claim the GNG has a 'requirement that there be at least two or three')&quot;. I don't think this is a serious enough problem to re-write it, but anyone who tries to write a closing summary is going to have a more complicated task than was necessary. Editors can help the future closer by being as clear as possible about what they think, and avoiding overreliance on voting-type statements. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 06:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC) :Huh? NTRAINSTATION itself uses the phrase inherently notable, says train stations are not that, and says they need to meet a relevant SNG or the GNG. Option 2 says the same thing. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 11:38, 12 September 2024 (UTC) ::You're right, Option 2 says that – but the editors discussing this don't. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 17:54, 12 September 2024 (UTC) :::People aren't bound to the exact text of an RfC option. A good closer will read what people are actually saying rather than closing the discuss as &quot;25 bolded option 2s means those people support exactly waht option 2 says&quot;. People often agree to a proposition with caveats or proposed amendments, even in the best designed RfCs. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 18:31, 12 September 2024 (UTC) :I also think my understanding of the GNG is pretty generally accepted, but I respect that others have different readings of it and occasionally I'm willing to IAR on that point; categorically exempting British railway stations is not one of those occasions. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 11:49, 12 September 2024 (UTC) :We want to avoid saying &quot;all X are inherently notable&quot; as that will drive editors to create mass stubs as well as lead other editors to look for ways to identifies adjacent topics to type X as inherently notable too. It's fine if the practical effect of saying &quot;inherent notability&quot; and and SNG that presumes notability is the same, that all topics in X get articles, but at lease with the basis in an SNG, then we have less problems should the presumption fail and AFD is used. It's very hard to AFD a poor article if it falls under a claim of &quot;inhereted notability&quot; [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 13:43, 12 September 2024 (UTC) ::{{tpq|It's very hard to AFD a poor article if it falls under a claim of &quot;inhereted notability&quot;}} &quot;poor articles&quot; shouldn't be taken to AfD, they should be improved, but &quot;inherited notability&quot; and &quot;inherent notability&quot; are two very different things. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 13:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC) :::I meant for AFD that if one did a proper BEFORE search and failed to find further sourcing for a stub created on basis of &quot;inherent notability&quot;, it would still be difficult to have editors agree to delete or merge that at AFD. (and yes I did mean to stick to inherent notability in my statement above. We don't do inherited notability either but that's for different reasons) [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 14:05, 12 September 2024 (UTC) ::Personally, I think that nothing – not chemical elements, not US presidents, not even [[Encyclopedia]] – is ''inherently'' notable, but I also think that editors sometimes use that language to say &quot;Look, we've been through this before: anyone who does a thorough search will be able to find the sources, so if you haven't found them, that is more likely to indicate that your search skills are poor than to prove that the sources don't exist in the real world. Stop wasting our time with these AFDs, because they're not going to result in deletion&quot;. That can be a valuable thing for an AFD nom to hear, even if it's unpleasant and even if (IMO the more important failing) it could result in a story could around that some things qualify for articles merely because they exist. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 17:59, 12 September 2024 (UTC) :::Yes, that is how it operates, but sometimes those people are wrong and it's straight up not true that the thing people are claiming is inherently notable is in fact notable at all. Indeed, in this discussion, even the most railroad stations are notable crowd has admitted some of them are just not notable. A BEFORE search is not required to be extemeley in depth; we don't require editors to go to the local library or village archives and pour through microfiche. Telling good faith AfD noms that they're wrong and that X thing ''must'' be notable without providing evidence to substantiate that claim is basically gaslighting them. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 18:28, 12 September 2024 (UTC) ::::Nobody in this discussion is arguing that all railway stations are individually notable, just that every currently-open National Rail station in Great Britain has sufficient coverage in reliable sources that they are all notable (a very significantly lesser claim than your strawman). However, I've never seen an AfD for any subject that verifiably is or was a railway station located on a line or system that has an article result in deletion - every single one I am aware of has ended as &quot;keep&quot;, &quot;merge&quot; or &quot;redirect&quot; and the same is true for most articles about future railway stations (certainly nothing where construction has started has been deleted). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 20:43, 12 September 2024 (UTC) :::::I&quot;m not strawmanning; I thought it was implied that we were talking about British railroad stations, not global ones, given the topic of this RfC. {{tq|However, I've never seen an AfD for any subject that verifiably is or was a railway station located on a line or system that has an article result in deletion - every single one I am aware of has ended as &quot;keep&quot;, &quot;merge&quot; or &quot;redirect&quot; and the same is true for most articles about future railway stations (certainly nothing where construction has started has been deleted).}} That's fine, but I think it's beside the point, which is that editors think it sufficient to say &quot;Keep, all railroad stations in Britain meet GNG&quot; when there is no consensus that that is an adequate rationale in an AfD discussion for railroads in general; it appears that this RfC will now establish that such a carveout does not exist for British railroad stations. There's no harm in requiring editors to actually provide sources when a good faith AfD nomination is brought, instead of !votes that are effectively &quot;trust me bro, I know of the existence of 15 books on railroad stations in Britain&quot;. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 20:51, 12 September 2024 (UTC) :::With 15 NPP'ers doing 90% of the reviews, and 10,000 article backlog, why would it be &quot;valuable&quot; to hear a complaint that somebody thinks that they didn't do an extensive enough wp:before? Doubly so when the person making the complaint hasn't looked for or found any GNG sources, which is usually the case. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 18:40, 12 September 2024 (UTC) ::::I often think that we need a [[WP:AFTER]] guideline to compliment [[WP:BEFORE]] - when an under-sourced article has survived an AFD (based on the fact that sources actually DO exist) it should be incumbent upon those who vote “Keep” to improve the article and actually ''add'' the relevant sources. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 12:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC) :::::Why only those who vote “Keep”? Surely the others are at least as concerned that the article is undersourced. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 12:41, 13 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::I've thought it through and am of two minds on wp:before. I think that it should still exist, but that w need to make it the norm that the main part of building a new article is finding and including suitable sources, and a norm for those advocating &quot;keep&quot; is to find '''''and include''''' them. Two reasons why wp:before is needed is that there are extreme deletionists out there, and the norm is that GNG-dependent articles don't meet the strictest interpretation of GNG, thus being vulnerable to extreme deletionists. But for NPP it causes problems in many ways, including people beating up overloaded NPP'ers instead of finding the sources that they claim exist. And for most of those, GNG sources don't exist, their &quot;coverage exists&quot; (note the omission of &quot;GNG&quot; before &quot;coverage&quot; ) claim is referring to non-GNG coverage. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 13:13, 13 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::I am looking at this from the other side: You do a lousy BEFORE search (or skip it, because it's not actually required). You've spent 30 seconds on this. :::::::I present you with a list of sources on the proverbial silver platter. It probably took me 15 to 60 minutes. Having already spent my time on a task I'm not interested in, and which I did only because your sloppy work set a seven-day timer was ticking, why shouldn't you have to go back to the article and add the sources? :::::::Think of it as a form of penance for having done a lousy BEFORE search. It might even discourage people from trying to use AFD as a form of clean up. We've all seen the occasional editor who thinks that &quot;Speedy keep, according to the four sources I've just added to this article&quot; is a win. He spent 30 seconds on an AFD nom statement and has a shiny new set of refs in the article, bringing it up to his personal standard without having to do any of the actual work himself. What could be better or easier? [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 05:35, 18 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::::+1. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 06:15, 18 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::::&lt;small&gt;(On a related note: Thank you, David, for the multiple hours you've spent helping me assess notability for NPROF and other subjects.)&lt;/small&gt; [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 17:50, 18 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I don't understand your post at all. Could you explain, including who/what roles the hypothetical people are? &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 18:04, 18 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Would a story help? :::::::::Spamhunter Sally has found another uncited (or under-cited) article about an organization. As you know, [[Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)]] sets a higher than average bar. As you also know, some editors dedicate themselves to protecting the wiki from :::::::::The org that Sal has in their sights this time is a large organization in a non-English speaking country, so it's difficult to find relevant search results, especially if your search strategy is to put the English transliteration of the name into your favorite web search engine, without quotes, with English-only filters enabled, so you get a lot of irrelevant hits. The AFD rationale says says &quot;Nobody has cited this article for five years! I did a BEFORE search and didn't find any sources. We should delete it.&quot; :::::::::Alice says &quot;Here are three sources in Arabic about this org&quot;. Bob says &quot;Here is a good source in French about this org, and I've nicely formatted the citation for you&quot;. Chris says &quot;I'm finding lots of sources when I search on the non-English local name&quot;. David says &quot;It's mentioned in a report by the UK government&quot;. The article is kept. :::::::::What's next? The options are: :::::::::* The article remains uncited (or under-cited). :::::::::* The closer adds the citations to the article. :::::::::* The nom adds the citations to the article :::::::::* One of the AFD participants adds the citations to the article. :::::::::What's your choice? Note that I'm deliberately leaving out &quot;Someone who didn't edit the AFD page noticed that there were sources listed there that are not in the article&quot;, as that's unrealistic. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 21:00, 18 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::{{Ping|WhatamIdoing}} Thanks for the response. There are so many unspecified or non-typical things in that that I'm hesitant to respond. But maybe I'll add a few assumptions and respond. Let's assume that by &quot;undercited&quot; you mean does not have the included sources to satisfy ncorp-GNG on a GNG-dependent article. (which would be the only basis for AFD'ing that article.) And let's assume that since you used the word &quot;organization&quot; instead of company, that it is a not a for-profit organization. And the respondents at AFD operated based on [[Wikipedia:How Wikipedia notability works]], they say that it was a highly enclyclopedic topic, that it was real-world-notable, recognized that the unusually stringent standards of Ncorp are intended for for-profit corporations and not for the case at hand, and allowed a more lenient interpretation of ncorp GNG and decided &quot;keep&quot;. In that case my answer is that all is settled; the article can exists as-is. (Like any article, it can be improved ) &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 21:35, 20 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::(The particular AFD I had in mind was one of the largest [[Research hospital|research hospitals]] in the world, and I think it was technically a government agency.) :::::::::::You would leave the article un-/under-cited. I would also be content with that outcome (though, obviously, it's best if someone does that extra step). However, I saw complaints about an AFD not too many weeks ago whose rationale basically consisted of an editor complaining that the sources identified in the previous AFD had not been added to the article, so it was time to delete it, so some people apparently don't agree with us. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 00:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Per WP:BURDEN, wouldn’t it be the responsibility of those editors who want to keep the article to add the relevant sources. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 13:05, 21 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::No. [[WP:BURDEN]] says {{tq|The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material.}} This says nothing about sharing the responsibility with people who are discussing the article content, let alone those who are discussing whether the article should be deleted or kept. --[[User:Redrose64|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit&quot;&gt;Red&lt;/span&gt;rose64]] &amp;#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 14:09, 21 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::Verifiability is required for all content: the reliable source ''must'' already exist, and the burden of identifying the reliable source is on the keeper or adder. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 14:15, 21 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::Exactly. Assuming the nominator has done a reasonable BEFORE search for sources, an AFD can be considered a challenge to the article’s Verifiability (specifically, the Verifiability of any statements as to why the topic is notable). Thus BURDEN applies. It is the responsibility of the editors who wish to retain the article to supply sources. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 14:25, 21 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::::Right, but unfortunately the BEFORE is often turned into a catch-22: ''You must do before, so we can smugly tell you, you don't know what you are doing.'' [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 14:33, 21 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::::^ This. The fact is that not everyone has the knowledge or skills necessary to do a decent BEFORE search. A search that seems reasonable to the nom won't necessarily seem reasonable to someone who knows about the subject area. Sometimes it's hard. The nom of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White cake]] made a 100% genuine effort to find sources. I don't fault him one bit. He just didn't happen to have the specialist knowledge necessary to find reliable sources amid all the recipes. [[White cake]] now names 22 sources and has a couple hundred words about its history. An ordinary BEFORE search doesn't help you find that. Noms do sometimes need help (that's why we're a collaborative project, right?), and we are not always kind to noms who need help. :::::::::::::::That said, some noms have unusual ideas about what constitutes a reliable source. A couple of years ago, I saw a TBAN proposal for a frequent nom who appeared to have a personal belief that if a source contains a single sentence about anything in the long list at [[Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#Examples of trivial coverage]], then the entire rest of the source is invalidated. You could have a thousand-word source about the some detail of a market-roiling corporate merger, and he'd reject that source as merely &quot;routine coverage&quot;. So you could have someone do a good BEFORE search but do an idiosyncratic review of the sources they've found and come to a different conclusion. I find this far more irritating than the person who looked through 10 screenfuls of basic web search results before concluding that he couldn't find any sources. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 18:35, 21 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::Remember that we are judging sources that have been identified and written down, which can include sources on a talk page as well as sources at an AFD; ultimately they should be included as in line citations (and even accepting as bare url ones), but a proper BEFORE review will consider these other locations in addition to what can be found off site and in print. :::::::Of course if an edit claims they have a copy of a difficult-to-obtain source, there should be some onus on them to include that since they positively identified themselves as having access to it. We can't require that but can urge that. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 20:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::::If a difficult-to-access source is identified but not turned into an inline citation by someone who knows what it says (and therefore which sentences in the article it can actually support), someone else might be able to list the source in ==Further reading==. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 21:05, 18 September 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Sources in foreign languages that are difficult to interpret may become the soil for hoaxes, see [[Zhemao hoaxes]]. [[User:Pygos|Pygos]] ([[User talk:Pygos|talk]]) 02:24, 19 September 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::[[WP:V#Accessibility]] covers both difficult-to-access sources and sources in foreign languages. --[[User:Redrose64|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit&quot;&gt;Red&lt;/span&gt;rose64]] &amp;#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 06:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC) === Book list === Belatedly, as promised above, I have started compiling a list of sources at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject UK Railways/Sources#Railway stations]], focused specifically on the extent of coverage of railway stations. More to come throughout the day. Editors who have books in their own collections are welcome to add details. It may also be worth writing up some &quot;test cases&quot;: picking some stations, going through each book and identifying exactly how much is written about them. &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Helvetica;&quot;&gt;[[User:Hassocks5489|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #00BFFF;&quot;&gt;Hassocks&lt;/b&gt;]][[User talk:Hassocks5489|&lt;span style=&quot;color: #228B22;&quot;&gt;5489&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color: #C71585;&quot;&gt;&lt;small&gt; (Floreat Hova!)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 08:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC) :There should be a central repository of editors with libraries they are willing to share. Sort it by categories and it would be an invaluable benefit to the improvement of articles. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 16:27, 12 September 2024 (UTC) ::I have a vague recollection that there is/used to be something like this. I can't remember what it is/was called though and a quick search hasn't found what I'm thinking of unfortunately. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 16:33, 12 September 2024 (UTC) :::[[WP:RX]] [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 16:49, 12 September 2024 (UTC) ::::I knew about Resource Exchange but not [[WP:SHARED]], which is exactly what I was suggesting. Something that could use more advertising. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 17:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC) :::::That's helpful too. I didn't know about that one. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 17:52, 12 September 2024 (UTC) :Might I suggest that someone whip up a simple Wikiproject-level talk page template which can be added to all British rail pages with those book sources, and then use some automated tool to add that template to the talk pages of all existing British rail station pages (eg all those in [[:Category:Railway stations in Great Britain]]), such that 1) those sources become available to all such pages so they can be used for improvement, and 2) helps to address any BEFORE concerns, since those are likely sources that can be used and become appropriately identified within the article's talk page. --[[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 16:14, 13 September 2024 (UTC) :'''Option 2''', the fact they’re British is completely irrelevant to policy, this looks like [[exceptionalism]]. [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 19:35, 2 October 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] may I respectfully suggest that you read what other people have written in this RfC instead of arguing against a strawman? I don't see anybody arguing for British exceptionalism. I do see people making well-reasoned arguments (backed up by an [[WP:UKT/S|ever-growing list of sources]]) that all British stations already satisfy the GNG, and I've yet to see anybody point to a station they believe isn't notable so that interested editors can add sources. All of which leads me to believe that this discussion is a waste of bandwith. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:54, 2 October 2024 (UTC) :::This RfC is about whether they are &quot;inherently notable&quot; or whether they should remain subject to the same standards as other articles. If no one can find a station that doesn’t meet the criteria then there’s something to be said for option 1, but I find that hard to believe. If this is to stop lazy AfDs then I could support it, but it still looks exceptionalist lol [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 21:00, 2 October 2024 (UTC) ::::You are not the first person to say that it's hard to believe every station is actually notable, but nobody has actually managed to find a station that isn't - despite ''many'' requests, almost nobody actually even ''tries'', they just presume that the subject matter experts must be wrong (perhaps because they're biased). I doubt that the British railway network is unique in being so highly covered in reliable sources, it's just that there are enough people editing the English Wikipedia who know about and have access to the sources about the British network. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 21:16, 2 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Quite. I would imagine most French and German stations are notable (though much of the source material won't be in English of course), they were early adopters of railways and built extensive networks. Maybe Spain and Portugal. A lot of stations on railways built for the British Empire and possibly other European empires will be notable. Railways in North America tended to be built more cheaply at first (partly because of the vast distances of course, compared to one small island) and were more ephemeral but I would still imagine any passenger station with a regular service would satisfy the GNG. There's a plethora of material on railways in general and stations in particular, and I doubt that's a uniquely British phenomenon. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:34, 2 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I hope the closer focuses on the quality of arguments made. [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 21:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC) === Tram stops, too? === It looks like we also have an endless collection of British tram stops, for example [[Baguley tram stop]]. Yes, that's right. A place a tram stops. Not even a building. [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 00:36, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :All of the people arguing above that of course all British transportation infrastructure has enormous amounts of book-length secondary-source coverage are welcome to supply proper sourcing for this article. Currently it has only primary sources. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 00:45, 3 October 2024 (UTC) ::Indeed. No doubt a book about tram stops would have been an incredible bestseller. [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 00:48, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] [[WP:STRAWMAN|nobody is arguing that]] - some infrastructure is not notable, but railway stations do have lots of secondary sourcing. Tram stops are more complicated than railway stations - some are notable, some aren't and they need to be assessed individually (2 minutes on google is not sufficient). Most (but not all) tram stops in Manchester were converted from railway stations and thus (unsurprisingly to anyone who has actually read and understood the discussion above, rather than just assumed it must about British exceptionalism) have sufficient coverage to demonstrate notability (remember notability is not temporary). Whether this new-build tram stop is notable I don't know (I haven't looked), but comments such as {{tpq|No doubt a book about tram stops would have been an incredible bestseller.}} are neither collegiate nor helpful. Tram stops can be little more than signs on a post (e.g. many of the first generation ones in Blackpool) or they can be more significant infrastructure projects than some stations (e.g. the former Station Street stop in Nottingham). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 00:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :: Yeah, what Thryduulf said. Until the expansion of the Manchester Metrolink, the vast majority of stops were former heavy rail stations that were converted and will therefore have a significant amount of literature in the same way as current stations ([[Timperley tram stop]], for example, was opened in 1849). The new-build stuff is of course different and will of course need citing from newer sources. I've looked at a few of them and the sourcing seems pretty routine, but I'm sure it can probably be improved as well as few people appear to have actually edited a lot of them since their original creation. I'd be more concerned about entire new-build systems, for example Croydon Tramlink, for which [[Therapia Lane tram stop]] seems to be a typical article - the sourcing there is ... not great. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 20:51, 3 October 2024 (UTC) ::: Would it not still be better to have a single article covering the tram stops in a particular city, with individual stops to be split out into separate articles ''iff'' the content on them becomes large enough and well-cited enough to merit separate treatment? [[User:BD2412|&lt;span style=&quot;background:gold&quot;&gt;'''''BD2412'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 21:19, 3 October 2024 (UTC) ::::In many cases, probably yes. However I wouldn't use Manchester as the example for that approach, nor would I recommend merging without discussion (redirecting without any attempt at merging is likely to lead to drama, nominating for deletion is about the worst thing you could do for the cause given there is a strong consensus that verified existence is sufficient for at least a redirect). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 21:25, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Yeah tram stops are hit and miss. There are books on the Manchester Metrolink so I wouldn't be shocked if most of those stations but some of the new-built Croydon ones might well not be. My general preference would be for one bigger article over dozens of cookie-cutter small articles but certainly some will have enough coverage to write a more substantial article [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Thryduulf: If attempted prods and [[WP:BLAR]] redirects on badly-sourced content such as [[Baguley tram stop]] have led only to reversion to their badly-sourced state, with no improvement, what alternative is there but a full AfD? Any attempt on the article page to discuss redirect/merge is unlikely to receive a less-obstructionist response. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 21:30, 4 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{tpq|Any attempt on the article page to discuss redirect/merge is unlikely to receive a less-obstructionist response}} {{fake citation needed}} but discussions on talk pages and especially WikiProject pages are exactly the right venue when approached with a constructive attitude, willingness to listen and no time limit. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 22:15, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::Your linking Wikibullying in the first word of your first response to me in this section does not convince me that &quot;a constructive attitude, willingness to listen&quot; is to be found in your responses in this venue, which you describe as &quot;exactly the right venue&quot;. And the repeated attacks against every single process for cleaning up this mess, including your characterization of discussion here as bullying, the immediate and unhelpful reversions of the PROD and BLAR at Baguley, and the bizarre claim at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Street tram stop]] that individual tram stops are somehow exempt from AfD, are convincing me that there is no approach to this mess that will not be attacked as the wrong approach. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 23:29, 4 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::This is getting ridiculous. When alleging people are not listening it is better not to, in the very same comment no less, provide evidence that you are not listening to what people are saying. Nobody in that discussion is claiming that individual tram stops are exempt from AfD, they are explaining (as has been done in multiple other discussions, including here) why discussing them as a set makes more sense. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 23:44, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::A &quot;keep&quot; claiming that &quot;notability of these stops should be discussed as a set, not by individual AfDs&quot; is somehow different from claiming that individual tram stops are somehow exempt from AfD?? Ok, if you say so. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 00:04, 5 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I guess for most cases this is the desired format, with a few tram stops from the list having their own articles. There is of course some semantics involved (what we call a tram), but I currently can not imagine a tram system in which all stops are notable on their own and have information beyond the opening date, infrastructure, and the lines. [[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:30, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Is it really a problem if an article about a piece of transit infrastructure &quot;only&quot; has information on what it is, when it was used, and how it relates to other pieces of transit infrastructure? I'm not sure what else would be wanted in an article. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 00:16, 5 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::I would say history (beyond a simple opening date) and architecture of the infrastructure (name of the architect, style, similarities etc, not just having one island platform period). Ideally of course also mentions in popular culture but we do not have that for most stations or tram stops. [[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 04:31, 5 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::It sounds like you would rather not have articles about transit infrastructure unless there's something unusual or interesting about them. What if there really isn't any interesting history, the architecture is boring, the architect is an unknown government employee, and the style is just like all the others? :::::::It might be convenient if all notable locations could host some suitably dramatic moment (a photogenic protest over its construction, say), and it would be desirable if they featured some bit of public art, but I'm not sure that &quot;being an interesting subject&quot; is something that the GNG cares about. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:19, 6 October 2024 (UTC) :::It's weird how we keep being told there's such a tremendous amount of literature available about individual stations and now some tram stops but it's not present at the articles ([[Timperley tram stop]] is an example) and the literature is never really presented for review? [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 21:20, 3 October 2024 (UTC) ::::It's not at all weird when you realise that Wikipedia is a work in progress and most of these articles were written many years before the current fad for insisting that everything meet much higher standards right now or else it must be deleted. [[Timperley tram stop]] is an odd example to use, given that the article has existed since 2006 and includes a book source. Do consider that the time spent on endless discussions like this one where the same answers are given to the same people (who are rarely [[WP:SATISFY|satisfied]]) time and again, is time not spent improving the articles you are complaining about. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 21:32, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I didn't start the discussion. Notability is not a fad, it's an integral part of how we operate and I'm surprised you dismiss notability requirements so flippantly. [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 21:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::The fad is not notability, but insisting that articles must demonstrate notability by presence of sources in the article ''now'' contrasts with the [[WP:NEXIST]] philosophy that served Wikipedia well for the first 15 or so years. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 22:25, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::I have to question whether NEXIST has actually served Wikipedia ''well'' for those 15 years. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 22:44, 3 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Given that it enabled Wikipedia to grow from nothing to the world's largest encyclopaedia I think it's indisputable. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 22:48, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::If we were starting again, I'd insist that all articles contain at least one third-party source that verifies the subject's existence but we can't apply today's standards retroactively to 15- or 20-year-ood articles. So I support efforts like [[WP:UKT/S]] to compile sources and improve crap articles. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::How can we claim one way or the other that the same thing ''wouldn't'' have occurred if we'd required sources from the start? Either the editor adding content is basing it off a source they have in-hand, and thus could add the barest of citations (or even a description of a citation) somewhere, or they're basing it off memory and their contribution is as verifiable as a forum post. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 23:32, 3 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::You're conflating multiple different things here. Just because someone writes something without direct reference to a source does not mean it is unverifiable, let alone that it is incorrect. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 00:20, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::I didn't say it was unverifiable. I said it was ''as verifiable'' as a forum post. It could be accurate content for which others would have to do the work to find sourcing, or it could be a hazy misremembered synthesis whose origin is the editor's brain rather than any published work. Providing a source lets us compare it to the editor's summary; if the added content is not supported then we can conclude that it is at least not verifiable to the purported source, and sometimes that's all we need to determine it's not verifiable at all (e.g. it's an obvious misinterpretation). Without a source, we don't know whether the content is verifiable or even falsifiable. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 16:48, 4 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Well mostly because Wikipedia didn't really worry about sourcing until 2004 or so by which point it had made its initial climb in the alexa ranks and Nupedia was dead and buried.[[User:Geni|©Geni]] ([[User talk:Geni|talk]]) 15:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC) :Nope. The only stop on the blackpool tram network with an article is the railway station. See [[List of Blackpool Tramway tram stops]].[[User:Geni|©Geni]] ([[User talk:Geni|talk]]) 16:35, 4 October 2024 (UTC) So somebody is saying that there's no need to establish notability (via specific sources) for GNG-dependent articles at inception of an article? That would certainly change Wikipedia. Get ready for an upload of a few billion resumes/CV and business advertisements. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 12:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :The only articles that are ''required'' to have a source are BLPs. Subjects need to be notable, but they are not required to demonstrate that by means of including sources unless and until notability is challenged. If that were not the case then there would be a speedy deletion criterion for articles that don't include sources (A7 and A9 require articles about certain subjects to claim notability, not demonstrate it). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 13:13, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::Again, I'm finding your arguments quite troubling. This is particularly concerning: {{tq|Just because someone writes something without direct reference to a source does not mean it is unverifiable, let alone that it is incorrect.}} Without sources, we have absolutely no way to verify that we're not publishing misinformation or hoaxes. I remember being at school in the early 2000s and teachers would always say &quot;don't visit Wikipedia, it's all made up and written by anyone.&quot; We've come a long way in addressing the credibility issue but attitudes like yours are completely at odds with what the community expects regarding notability. &quot;{{tq|The only articles that are ''required'' to have a source are BLPs}}&quot; - this is completely contrary to the spirit of [[WP:N]] and importantly also [[WP:V]]: &quot;In the English Wikipedia, verifiability means people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than editors' beliefs, opinions, experiences, or previously unpublished ideas or information. Even if you are sure something is true, it must have been previously published in a reliable source before you can add it.&quot; Again, this is the absolute, complete opposite of what you have written above: {{tq|Just because someone writes something without direct reference to a source does not mean it is unverifiable, let alone that it is incorrect.}} I have challenged the notability of [[Church Street tram stop]] and you have responded &quot;{{tq|doing this randomly to one stop in isolation would look ridiculous}}&quot;. So we can't challenge notability of tram stops as a whole because some &quot;might be&quot; notable but we also can't challenge notability of tram stops individually because that's &quot;ridiculous&quot;? [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 15:18, 4 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Yet again you are confusing &quot;verifiable&quot; with &quot;verified&quot; and conflating &quot;unverified&quot; with &quot;incorrect&quot;. Until you learn the difference it's pointless continuing to discuss any of those things with you. As for Church Street tram stop, you are ignoring that there are multiple levels between an individual tram stop and all tram stops, in the context of that edit summary I was referring to systematically discussing stops on Croydon Tramlink (I could have been clearer about that), but even if you think picking stops at random is a good idea (and if you do, please explain why) then deletion is not the appropriate response to a tram-stop (or indeed railway station) that is not individually notable. The correct response is to merge the content to a broader article and redirect the title to there. There have been probably hundreds of AfDs about stations and tram stops over the years, and the only times I'm aware that they have ended in delete are (a) when it could not be verified they exist(ed) (including articles about speculative proposals), or (b) when there was no article to merge the content to. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 15:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I had a very quick look and the best I could find on Church Street is a few mentions in [https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Croydon_Tramlink/-bTZDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gl=GB Croydon Tramlink: A Definitive History]. One of those mentions talks about a turnback loop for use when there are problems in Croydon town centre so there might be enough for a couple of paragraphs. I'm happy to be proven wrong but my gut feeling is that most of the Croydon tram stops probably don't meet the GNG. The best way to proceed is probably to start a discussion on a wikiproject talk page to see if anyone knows of sources that have been overlooked and if not I'd support merging and redirecting them. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:29, 4 October 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]], this seems to be a fairly common point of confusion these days, so maybe it bears explaining. We have a policy at [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion of biographies of living people]] that says this about BLPs: ::::* {{xt|If the biography remains unsourced after seven days, the biography may be deleted.}} ::::There is no similar statement for any other subject. If you want to write an unsourced article on [[Christmas candy]], then by policy you are free to do so. We have tried a couple of times recently to introduce such a requirement, and they've failed. (Links to the most recent RFCs are in the middle of [[Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/FAQ]], if you'd like to read them and try again.) ::::WP:V requires that it be ''possible to'' cite everything. WP:V does not require that everything ''be cited''. WP:V requires inline citations for four specified kinds of material (e.g., direct quotations), but anything that doesn't fall into those four categories is not required to have a citation ever – even though everything must be verifiable. The gap here is that WP:V requires that {{xt|people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source}}, but it does not require that this be possible {{!xt|without going to a library, using a search engine, or otherwise finding a reliable source all by themselves}}. ::::Similarly, [[WP:NRVE]] says &quot;there must be [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiable]], objective evidence that the subject has received significant attention from independent sources&quot;, but it does not say that this objective evidence must be cited in the article. The evidence just has to ''exist'', (quoting from NOR) {{xt|By &quot;exist&quot;, the community means that the reliable source must have been published and still exist—somewhere in the world, in any language, whether or not it is reachable online—even if no source is currently named in the article.}} Editors at AFD are not required to believe hand-wavy assertions that sources exist, but they're also not prohibited from either making or accepting such assertions. Nobody who grew up in the Western world actually needs a source to tell them that Christmas candy is a thing, and no policy requires them to pretend that they have no prior knowledge (quite the opposite, in fact). ::::[[WP:Glossary#verifiable]] and [[WP:Glossary#uncited]] may be useful. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 00:34, 5 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I think you're taking a very 2008 view of Wikipedia. The community has become much less tolerant of unsourced content. We've also moved on from the days of inherent notability of topics as diverse as radio stations, schools, and train stations. All those topics were effectively presumed inherently notable prior to RfCs which attracted major, community-wide participation. &quot;{{tq|WP:V requires inline citations for four specified kinds of material (e.g., direct quotations), but anything that doesn't fall into those four categories is not required to have a citation ever}}&quot; one of those four situations is &quot;material whose verifiability has been challenged&quot; - that's exactly what multiple editors are doing. Let's go back to the most basic of Wikipedia policies here - GNG. &quot;A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list when it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.&quot; [[WP:WHYN]], part of GNG states: &quot;We require &quot;significant coverage&quot; in reliable sources so that we can actually write a whole article, rather than half a paragraph or a definition of that topic. If only a few sentences could be written and supported by sources about the subject, that subject does not qualify for a separate page, but should instead be merged into an article about a larger topic or relevant list.&quot; - highly relevant to individual tram stops and many train stations. [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 06:41, 5 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::I'm taking a very &quot;2024 view&quot; when I say that we have repeatedly tried and failed – including twice just this year, in [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deletion of uncited articles#Adding a policy bias against articles without sources|January 2024]] and [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 211#Deprecating new unsourced articles|March 2024]] – to get any sentence into any policy that says unsourced articles are not okay. ::::::Hopefully the ideas that our written policies and guidelines should accurately reflect the real rules and that we should not operate with unnecessary reliance on [[unwritten rules]] has not been relegated to the territory [[Wikipedia:Old-fashioned Wikipedian values]]. But if &quot;write down the real rules&quot; is a &quot;2008 view&quot; and the shiny new modern approach is to refuse to disclose important rules and then complain that people didn't magically know that they needed to comply with the secret rules, then I will admit that I prefer the old approach. It's more honest, for one thing. ::::::Declaring that you think an article is not [[WP:Notable]] is not the same as &quot;challenging the verifiability of the material&quot;. A subject can be non-notable even when the material in the article is 100% verifiable. Or even if it is 100% cited. A verifiability [[WP:CHALLENGE]] usually looks like {{tl|fact}}, and does not usually look like an AFD page. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:12, 6 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::You're really mischaracterising those discussions. For example the March discussion was only about new articles and had editors opposing because the NPP and draftify process already work well for new articles and many others opposing because they did not support a grandfather clause for existing articles/only applying the policy to articles created after April. Relatively few argued that unsourced articles are acceptable going forward. [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 06:43, 6 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Comment''' So we've been told repeatedly above with regards to tram stops that &quot;{{tq|some are notable, some aren't and they need to be assessed individually}}&quot; which was endorsed by several editors. As a result, I began [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Street tram stop]] about a raised piece of concrete tram stop. Now I'm told &quot;There was clear consensus....notability of these stops should be discussed as a set.&quot; So at a combined AfD if a couple of tram stop out of a set of 30 tram stops is notable, they'll all be kept. But individual non-notable stops also cannot be taken to AfD. This is a [[WP:LOCALCONSENSUS]] absolutely refusing to accept Wikipedia policy and broader community consensus. [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 16:51, 4 October 2024 (UTC) *:That local consensus makes as much sense as holding an AFD for a chemist with no recorded accomplishments and finding that people are arguing that if some chemists rate articles, all chemists rate articles. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 17:50, 4 October 2024 (UTC) *::Yet again I find myself misquoted, my words distorted and responded to in a way that makes me wonder whether any attempt was even made to consider what other people are saying. The comparison to chemists is a fallacious absurdity. What has actually been said is that where there is a tightly defined, finite set (such as tram stops on Croydon Tramlink) where the members are interlinked (e.g. by sequential navboxes) it makes sense to discus the set as a set. It is also the case that where some members of such a set are notable, that all members are plausible search terms. Before responding further, please educate yourself on the difference between an article and a redirect. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 18:25, 4 October 2024 (UTC) *:::I was neither quoting nor responding to you. And I'm not willing to accept that the desire to make navboxes comprehensive in their categories, which is not policy, trumps the notability rule, which is. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 19:26, 4 October 2024 (UTC) *::::Yet again you have completely failed to understand the difference between an article and a redirect. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 20:17, 4 October 2024 (UTC) Can we please read [[wp:point]]. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:30, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :I think this is a reasonable discussion here, even though it might have started with wp:point. [[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:33, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :Coming to this late, but I really think everyone can agree that an article having more reliable sources is a better thing. Wikipedia's quality has gone up over the years through the hard work of many volunteer editors. I'm well aware of and do not dispute the fact that British railways have been the subject of extensive coverage in literature. This is a good thing and allows us to write better articles, and British editors have contributed, and continue to contribute, plenty of recognized quality articles covering trains. However, that doesn't mean every single tram stop in the U.K. has been the subject of significant coverage. There are certainly plenty of examples of tram stops that are notable, be it solely for being tram stops or for those with a previous history of heavy rail use. At the same time, many are little more than the equivalent of a bus shelter and have not been covered extensively. :What I think many editors object to is the argument that tram stops are ''automatically notable'' instead of being analyzed on a case by case basis. I'm of the belief that essentially any full sized railroad (not a scale model) that has ever operated in the United States is notable, but I would oppose making this a formal rule. Instead, I find sources to prove notability beyond a reasonable doubt, and it's not an issue. It is not unreasonable to ask for at least one source showing some level of coverage beyond basic details such as opening date and service frequency. [[New Haven Union Station]], to name an example local to me, is clearly notable because its history, including its design and operations, has been extensively discussed in reliable sources. I am sure the same can be said for many British stations, and if such an article were to go to AfD it should be fairly simple to provide a handful of sources showing a GNG pass. But I cannot support an extremely broad carve-out saying stations are automatically notable just for existing. We should be guided by the presence of lack thereof of significant coverage. Sometimes that means a tram station or a request stop is better covered within a broader article. [[User:Trainsandotherthings|Trainsandotherthings]] ([[User talk:Trainsandotherthings|talk]]) 21:07, 9 October 2024 (UTC) ===This was thoroughly discussed in 2022=== This was thoroughly discussed in 2022 ( [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Notability/Archive_76]] ) and it was decided (and essentially a wp:snow close) that train stations are not inherently wp:notable. Sincerely, &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 22:28, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :I'm still not seeing anyone arguing that they are (although this thread has been dormant for a month and a half). Just that most or all of them meet the GNG (at least on some countries' networks) but that you might not know it from the first page of Google. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:35, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Notability feels weird == I recently got a &quot;this article may not meet notability guidelines&quot; on my article for [[The New Order: Last Days of Europe (mod)|''The New Order: Last Days of Europe'' (mod)]], which confuses me. The mod has tons of downloads and is the 8th most subscribed mod for HOI4. That somehow isn't notable. Yet there are articles on random villages in the middle east with less than 10 people in them? They also are barely two or three sentences long, and have some random census document as their source. How is that more notable than a major video game mod? I just don't quite understand. Help would be appriciated. [[User:PhoenixCaelestis|&amp;#45;Emily (PhoenixCaelestis)]] ([[User talk:PhoenixCaelestis|talk]]) 13:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :Notability is based on what significant coverage that reliable secondary sources say about a topic. It is not about popularity or fame or recognizition, though those are elements that may lead to secondary sourcing.&lt;span id=&quot;Masem:1729087623923:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNNotability&quot; class=&quot;FTTCmt&quot;&gt; —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 14:07, 16 October 2024 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt; ::Additionally, populated settlements with legal recognition are presumed to be notable per [[WP:GEOLAND]], as it is virtually inevitable that such places will generate coverage in secondary sources. &lt;sub&gt;signed, &lt;/sub&gt;[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC) ::also notability has to be independent of a game, unless it gets (in its own right) significant third-party coverage. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :::[[User:Slatersteven]], your “unless” part is confusing. Are you implying a difference between “independent” and “third-party”? Can you explain? [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 23:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Independent of the game means that the coverage must be of the mod in its own right (excluding just brief mentions of the game it is a mod for). Third-party means the sources can't be from anyone connected to the mod or the game. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC) :To me it feels weird that an encyclopedia should not cover real-life villages but cover a video game mod (something concerning a &lt;s&gt;fucking&lt;/s&gt; ''game'', not even the game itself). It is because of such differences of opinion that guidelines are used. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 14:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :Have others written about this mod? [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 23:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC) ::In terms of media outlets, not that I am aware of. However, the mod has a very dedicated fanbase (I should state that I am ''not'' part of it), and has been quite popular since its release. There are also hundreds of YouTube videos on it. I doubt the average media outlet has staff that just sit down and download random mods for strategy games from 2016, but I think there's a couple of gaming-specific outlets that have reported on it. I'll see what more I can find. [[User:PhoenixCaelestis|&amp;#45;Emily (PhoenixCaelestis)]] ([[User talk:PhoenixCaelestis|talk]]) 23:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:PhoenixCaelestis|PhoenixCaelestis]], check out [[Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library]] for access to some sources. It leans scholarly, but you might find something. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources]] is specific to video games. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 23:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :::Have others written about this mod? “not that I am aware of”. That’s the crux. Wikipedia must not be the first ''other'' to write about it. Wikipedia covers what ''others'' have already covered. It’s not weird, unless you mean Wikipedia’s choice of the word “notability”, in which case I think everyone agrees with you. [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 00:37, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ::::See also [[WP:POPULARITY]]. &quot;The mod has a very dedicated fanbase ... and has been quite popular since its release&quot; are things one could say about it based on reliable published sources that say the same thing. They are not a basis for notability themselves. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 01:28, 17 October 2024 (UTC) :I would guess you received that notification because the article you created does not cite many independent secondary sources that come across as probably being rigorous and reliable. You cite ''Wargamer'', which is a publication that covers wargames, but all the other sources will raise the eyebrow of many a Wikipedian concerned about notability. The ''Vandegrift Voice'' is a student newspaper (this is not automatically disqualifying for a source, but can you understand how it doesn't lend us much sense of prominence as coverage in, say, a regional newspaper like the ''Chicago Tribune''?), IGDB is a database that provides limited information that some editors won't consider [[WP:SIGCOV|significant coverage]] establishing notability, and the other sources are primary sources, like citing the mod's steam page or a forum post.{{pb}}Notability on Wikipedia as currently outlined in our guidelines isn't synonymous with 'how popular a thing is'. Rather, the guidelines consider a topic notable if it has been [[WP:SIGCOV|significantly covered]] by multiple [[secondary sources]] that are [[WP:IS|independent]] and [[WP:RS|reliable]]. What coverage counts as 'significant' and how many 'multiple' has to be are matters that editors sometimes disagree about, but that's the gist. In some sense, when we say 'notability' we kind of mean 'coveredness'—has this topic been ''covered'' (written about) by enough sources that we could write an article about it citing those sources? (There are some exceptions, such as [[WP:NPROF]], but for the [[WP:GNG|general notability guideline]], this is somewhat the idea.) So although [[Martha Ballard]] was very obscure during her lifetime, historians' interest in her diary and life means she has been covered by independent, reliable secondary sources, making her notable. And although ''The New Order: Last Days of Europe'' gets a lot of downloads, it doesn't seem to have gotten a lot of attention from scholars or journalists—which is, on Wikipedia, not notable. [[User:Hydrangeans|Hydrangeans]] ([[She (pronoun)|she/her]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:Hydrangeans#top|talk]] &amp;#124; [[Special:Contributions/Hydrangeans|edits]]) 02:21, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ::And, perhaps the most important point: Just because (if) it doesn't qualify for a [[Wikipedia:Separate, stand-alone article]] (&quot;Notability&quot;), it can still be in Wikipedia. 'Non-notable' subjects can be a paragraph or even a whole ==Section== inside a larger topic. If a thorough search convinces you that it doesn't qualify for a separate article, then see [[Wikipedia:Proposed article mergers]]. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 17:54, 17 October 2024 (UTC) :I'm not a fan of using &quot;notability&quot; as a term because it's confusing outside of Wikipedia. This guideline is really about &quot;significant coverage&quot; ([[WP:SIGCOV]]) from [[WP:RELIABLESOURCES]]. Wikipedia is supposed to summarize what other reliable sources have said about a topic. Without a significant amount of verified facts from reliable sources, we can't write a reliable, neutral article. In fact, creating an article based on blog posts, store pages, and unverified wikis can be biased, misleading, or even harmful. [[User:Shooterwalker|Shooterwalker]] ([[User talk:Shooterwalker|talk]]) 15:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC) :It is weird because, we have used a word &quot;notability&quot; that is not fit for purpose and used weirdly. It is not your fault, it is Wikipedia's fault. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 15:53, 18 October 2024 (UTC) == Straw poll on our jargon == {{discussion top|reason=Thank you for sharing your insights. Please suggest alternatives '''at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)#Describing Notability in plain English]]'''. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 21:07, 22 October 2024 (UTC)}} We've had several comments recently about using the name 'Notability' for this concept. I'd really like to take a moment to find out what you all think. So this is a quick, absolutely non-binding, unofficial [[straw poll]]: '''Do you wish that we would change the name of this guideline/this concept?''' I don't need explanations either way – just a quick '''Keep''' the old name or '''Change''' to a different/better name. * '''Change'''. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 18:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Change'''. As someone who does NPP/deletion work, even with patient explanation to new editors, it is difficult to persuade someone that an ordinary word has a very unordinary meaning. Just change it to the &quot;article creation criteria&quot; or something. We don't need a single word. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 18:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *I've been saying for quite some time we should change it. People get confused when we use a word in a very different way than they commonly understand it. If we called it something like &quot;article suitability criteria&quot;, they would understand that's something specific to Wikipedia, and not come into it with preconceived notions. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 18:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Keep''' without having any suggestion for what to change it too. This has been a PEREN on this talk pages, and among various suggestions, there's pros and cons. I wouldn't be against a change, and if thus poll is meant to determine it worthwhile to explore options, then yes, but there's far too much inertia behind &quot;notability&quot; as a term to be able to commit to a change without knowing what it is. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 18:54, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *:This is not any type of commitment. No decision is being made. Obviously, editors could very easily wish to see it changed in principle and still dislike particular names (including disliking all suggested alternatives). If a lot of editors are thinking &quot;Keep, because it's traditional/cool/what we're used to/whatever&quot;, then there would be no point in discussing it further. If a lot of editors are thinking &quot;Change&quot; (no matter where the fall on the spectrum from &quot;Change, but only to this exact thing&quot; to &quot;Change because literally anything would be better than this&quot;), then we should have that discussion (but later). [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 19:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *::I can't commit to &quot;do I wish we could change the name&quot; without knowing what options we are talking about. I think &quot;notability&quot; works and has a history which is a resistance to change, but I would only say we should change it if there's a clear obvious improvement. It would have been far better as a straw poll to ask &quot;should we try to seek out alternate names for notability?&quot; which I would agree too. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 19:18, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *:::I provided one above: article creation criteria. Do you have suggestions? [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 22:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *Sorry, but I can't (even in a quick, absolutely non-binding, unofficial [[straw poll]]) give a one-word answer. I wish that we could change it, but don't think, given how much this word is entrenched, that we can. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 19:13, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *:That more or less summarizes my view as well. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 19:47, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *:I don't think thats's really an argument not to change it. Editors will get used to any change. I imagine the main argument in opposition to any change will be &quot;this is a solution in search of a problem&quot;, which obviously isn't true. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 22:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC) * If I could go back in time, to when WP was new, I would suggest “Notedness” as an alternative… but I agree with Phil -the current terminology is too entrenched to change now. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 20:07, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *:If you got into a time machine and discovered that two years from now, this page was called [[Wikipedia:Notedness]]/your favorite alternative name instead, would you be sorry about that change? I could imagine someone feeling a sense of loss over tradition, for example, even if they don't really think the current name is good. But I wouldn't want the perceived impossibility of the task to prevent editors from saying that we wish it would happen. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:18, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Change''' I'm not sure what one word you could use instead - perhaps instead of trying to summarise into one word we should be asking simply &quot;Is the subject written about in reliable sources?&quot; That's what &quot;notability&quot; boils down to. I get tired of seeing so many abbreviations and all-caps links thrown around. [[User:Garuda3|Garuda3]] ([[User talk:Garuda3|talk]]) 22:36, 17 October 2024 (UTC) * Brainstorm alternatives first, before undermining the status quo. :* “Stand-alone topic criterion 1”? (Passing the GNG does not mean the topic must have its own page) :* “New topic test”? :* “Own page threshold test”? : —- [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 22:47, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ::The big problem with all of these is that they fail to specify that GNG is only one of multiple tests for wiki-notability. It is the main one, but not the only one, and should not have a name that blurs that issue. [[Wikipedia:Notability]] and [[WP:GNG]] are the same page, but not the same thing, and we should keep that clear. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 00:03, 18 October 2024 (UTC) :::&quot;Article creation guideline&quot; for WP:N. &quot;Guideline for when a topic should have its own article&quot; for GNG. &quot;When to create an article about X&quot; for each SNG. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 00:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Well, that certainly shouldn't be the case. The question about writing a standalone article is &quot;Do we have enough source material to write more than a permastub about this?&quot;. So, it would ''be'' GNG, it just wouldn't be ''called'' that. But changing the name would also get rid of the idea that &quot;Oh, but this thing is ''notable'' even if there's not enough sources...&quot;. Well, no, there's a substantial amount of reliable and independent source material, or there's not. If not, we can't write an article about it, because there's not enough to write it from. In that case, it still could be a list entry or mentioned elsewhere, it just shouldn't be a standalone &quot;article&quot; that will never actually be one. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 00:30, 18 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Notability is '''not''' an article creation guideline of any sort. We purposely have placed no limits on when articles can be created, and notability served to judge on review like at PROD or AFD. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 01:03, 18 October 2024 (UTC) :::::That's one of the issues, 'notability is not', 'notability is not', 'notability is not' is a broken record and has been for a long time. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 16:02, 18 October 2024 (UTC) :::David, I had the opposite thought, especially for &quot;Stand-alone topic criterion 1&quot;. That implies that there is at least a &quot;Criterion 2&quot; somewhere else. Perhaps &quot;Stand-alone topic criteria&quot; would be the more general, non-GNG parts of the concept. But I don't think we need to worry about potential titles; if we decide this is worth exploring in greater detail, then we can talk about things we value (e.g., is a single word better than a longer phrase?) and how to make it all work. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:25, 18 October 2024 (UTC) ::::That was in my mind. More specifically, I was remembering the &quot;primary notability criterion&quot;, [[User:Uncle G/On notability]]. Uncle G was weaving and merging the PNC into WP:NOT, with implications that notability should be considered first, before even WP:NOT, but not in any way detracting from WP:NOT. [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 02:54, 18 October 2024 (UTC) ::Source availability maybe? or source depth? [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 03:30, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Change''' Collectively, we have already discussed multiple alternatives. There is no better time than now (and that will be true tomorrow, too). [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 00:05, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Keep''' don't see the problem with it. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''&lt;span style=&quot;border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *:Thank you for being the first to defend the old/current name for its own sake. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:25, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Change'''. It's a jargon that is confusing to newcomers (and sometimes even to folks who aren't that new). I'm open to at least discussing some possible alternatives. [[User:Hydrangeans|Hydrangeans]] ([[She (pronoun)|she/her]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:Hydrangeans#top|talk]] &amp;#124; [[Special:Contributions/Hydrangeans|edits]]) 01:26, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Keep''' I have been helping at the Teahouse and the Help Desk for many years, and our concept of notability is not that difficult to explain to those willing to listen. I suspect that there will be equivalent problems and complaints about any alternative terminology. I believe that our firm insistence on the concept of notability is what keeps us a Top Ten website worldwide. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 01:33, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *:I agree that our firm insistence on the concept of notability is a very good thing. *:I agree that we do a pretty good job of working with all people who are willing to listen (please speak up with counter examples). The perceived problem comes from arguing with others who want to include unsuitable material. *:Would we change all instances of “notability” to the “Wikipedia concept of notability”? I think no, but maybe once, the lead sentence. Change *:: “On Wikipedia, '''notability''' is a test used by editors to decide whether a given topic warrants its own article” to *:: “The Wikipedia concept of '''notability''' is a test used &lt;s&gt;by editors&lt;/s&gt; to decide whether a given topic warrants its own article.” *:- [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 02:48, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *::I'm not sure about these, but it might not be amiss to have a sentence somewhere near the front about how, on Wikipedia, notability is used as a term of art that is not the same as its colloquial usage. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 04:18, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *:::We lead with &quot;On Wikipedia, notability is a test used by editors to decide whether a given topic warrants its own article.&quot; which begs an immediate statement that would be &quot;Unlike the common definition of notability, 'the fact or quality of being notable', 'notability' on WP refers to how we judge what has been written about a topic through reliable sources to determine if the topic merits a standalone article.&quot; [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 11:36, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *::Article Test Guideline &quot;Article Test&quot; is used by editors to decide whether a given article . . . There is a general test and specific tests *::Article Concept Guideline This &quot;Article Concept&quot; guide is used by editors decide whether a given article . . . There is a general concept guide and, specific concept guides. *::Etc. Etc. There are multiple fine ones, and notability is not fine, it is basically silly (as is any attachment to the word). *::Nor should one really credit, that people in the Wikipedia club are weirdly wedded to only one word. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 16:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC) * '''Change''' We should at least be open a discussion on whether there is a better title. --[[User:Enos733|Enos733]] ([[User talk:Enos733|talk]]) 04:36, 18 October 2024 (UTC) * '''Keep''' [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 04:53, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Keep:''' For one thing, the concept of &quot;notability&quot; on Wikipedia has such a broad and fundamental reach that making such a change requires a far broader RfC than just this talk page. For another, c'mon folks. If there's as few as fifty concepts/jargon that confuse newbies, I'd be surprised. Any change will be highly controversial, involve significant disruption, unnecessarily consume a great deal of editors' attention over a long period, and result in just as many complaints and just as much confusion all the same ... all so that instead of us explaining that no, &quot;notability&quot; doesn't mean here what the newbies want it to mean, we're explaining that no, this is what &quot;Own page threshold test&quot; means. Six of one, half dozen of another. [[User talk:Ravenswing|'''&lt;span style=&quot;background:#2B22AA;color:#E285FF&quot;&gt; '' Ravenswing '' &lt;/span&gt;''' ]] 08:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *:Come on -- no one has any preconceived conceptualization of &quot;article threshold&quot; or any of the others. And really &quot;controversy&quot;, is that another word for people disagreeing, because it sounds way over-the-top for changing the word for a made-up concept or test to something else. And fundamental -- also dramatic overstatement for a word. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 15:45, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *::I agree with Ravenswing in these ways: *::* The process for making any such change would not be an informal, non-RFC straw poll on this talk page; it would need a proper [[WP:PROPOSAL]], and given the volume we could expect from such a discussion, it should happen on a dedicated page like [[WP:Proposal to rename notability guidelines]] (or something like that). *::* Any change would be require a lot of work (e.g., moving pages, copyediting pages, updating welcoming templates). Much of this work could be done slowly over time, and we would likely use both old and new terms for a while, so there wouldn't have to be a sudden rush to make everything perfect by a set [[WP:DEADLINE]], but it would still be a lot of work in the end. *::* One of the things editors will have to decide is whether the amount of effort to make the change is greater or less than the amount of effort to not make the change. If the name alone costs us only 10 minutes a week, then how much does that add up to over the years? At what point does the endless drip-drip-drip of explaining the name exceed the one-time cost of changing it? The only thing I'm sure of here is that the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, and the second best time is now. I don't want to first dribble away our time for the next 20 years and then have the one-time cost of changing it. *::I disagree on this one point: *::* I believe that changing the name would reduce confusion. Right now, newbies can and do point to reliable sources that say &quot;Alice is a &lt;u&gt;notable&lt;/u&gt; musician&quot;, to which we often reply that Alice might be &quot;notable&quot;, but she's not &quot;Wikipedia:Notable&quot;. If we change the name to something like &quot;Guidelines for separate, stand-alone articles&quot;, newbies will not be showing up with sources that say &quot;Alice is a guided-to-have-a-separate-stand-alone-article musician&quot;, and so we will eliminate one source of confusion. (Of course, if we switched it to something like &quot;Wikipedia:Valuable topics&quot; or &quot;Wikipedia:Significance of subjects&quot;, then we'd have the same problem, so if we change the name, let's not pick a name like that.) *::[[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 18:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *:::Fine, (except thousands, millions? of changes a day happen so change is not hard) and none of that supports over-the-top drama. It's also more than that too, we get rid of the useless sterile discussions about so-called notability in article text. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 19:01, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *::::I suspect that a lot of editors have forgotten about this, but [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=340726004 in 2010], we renamed the [[Wikipedia:Article titles]] policy. The amount of effort was minimal, and the amount of confusion since then has been negligible. It wasn't controversial, it didn't involve any disruption (so far as I remember, anyway), and it didn't consume editors' attention. All the old names were kept as redirects. It just wasn't a big deal. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 19:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::Part of the inertia that &quot;notability&quot; has is the SNGs, and into other policies and guidelines. It's hard to count search results in just the WP namespace (ignoring talk pages) because of how noticeboards filter in, but even just comparing &quot;WP:Notability&quot; to &quot;WP:Article Titles&quot;, there's far more repercussions of changing the name of this page than there would be for article titles. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 19:34, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::Part of the inertia that &quot;Naming conventions&quot; had is the specific naming conventions, and the way it's used in other policies and guidelines. It's hard to count, but [[:Category:Wikipedia naming conventions]] looks like it has a couple hundred pages, compared to the mere twelve (12) SNGs. I'd say that the repercussions are about the same: Renaming a page results in nothing breaking (because we would keep the redirects), and over time everyone would get used to using different language. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 20:30, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::Except that the only page that was moved with the change to &quot;article titles&quot; was the main NC page. All those other pages are ''still'' at &quot;Naming conventions (field)&quot; (eg [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)]]). It makes sense that only the article title page was moved as that's advice broadly about article titles and less about specific naming conventions, while all the other naming convention pages are very specific naming conventions that work within the advice of &quot;article titles&quot;. In essence, that move separated MOS-type aspects of article titles from the naming conventions of specific fields *:::::::If we change notability to something else, we're going to have to determine how that language will affect all pages that use &quot;notability guidelines (field)&quot;. Which I think is far more difficult to split because of how engrained the GNG and SNG tests are for reviewing notability. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 20:54, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::Those guidelines could be moved if editors wanted to move them; we just haven't seen any need to do so. This particular guideline (WP:N itself) contains both advice broadly about how we decide which topics get separate articles and which don't, and less about very specific rules that work within the general advice about which do and which don't. *::::::::I agree that if we change ''notability'' to something else, we're going to have to determine how that language would affect all pages. However, I don't think that changing SNGs would be difficult at all. If we took Blueboar's suggestion of &quot;Notedness&quot;, for example, much of it could be done with a simple search-and-replace. If we picked something else, we could still re-write them. For example, &quot;If it's &lt;u&gt;not notable&lt;/u&gt;&quot; could become &quot;If it &lt;u&gt;does not qualify for a separate article&lt;/u&gt;&quot;. This is all do-able; copyediting is something most Wikipedians are good at. Also, just like we change WP:NC to WP:AT and didn't change any of the others, we could also change this one and none of the SNGs. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 02:39, 19 October 2024 (UTC) * What to? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:05, 18 October 2024 (UTC) * If we could start from scratch, yeah, I'd '''change''' it to something like 'inclusion criteria'. Notability isn't a bad name for the concept this page describes, but in retrospect it was a mistake to base our main inclusion guideline on a single concept. It gives the illusion that what is and isn't allowed is determined by some objective external reality, instead of something we decide ourselves. I think that's a big reason why people started acting like the GNG was handed down on stone tablets and that otherwise unobjectionable articles on obscure subjects were a stain to be expunged. &amp;ndash;&amp;#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 18:02, 18 October 2024 (UTC) * '''It's fine the way it is.''' [[User:GreenMeansGo|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Impact&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#07CB4B&quot;&gt;G&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#449351&quot;&gt;M&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#35683d&quot;&gt;G&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|&lt;sup style=&quot;color:#000;font-family:Impact&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:59, 18 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Change''' I don't know how many times an editor will post, &quot;It belongs in the article because it is [[WP:NOTABLE]].&quot; Or they say, &quot;It's notable because it's important,&quot; even if it has received minimal covered in rs. :These editors of course don't explain why it meets notability, but just cite the policy as if its a magic word. :Far too many editors look at the name of a policy, guideline or other direction without reading it, wasting time for other editors. Why not have a clear, descriptive name, such as &quot;Criteria for article creation?&quot; :[[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 00:44, 19 October 2024 (UTC) *'''keep''' for now at least. This term has been used for roughly 24 years now and is within the Wikipedia community an established term (even if it might irritate the occasional new editor). I might get convinced of a change, if i see a clearly better concrete alternative covering the same content. However some of the suggestions above do not convince me in that regard.--[[User:Kmhkmh|Kmhkmh]] ([[User talk:Kmhkmh|talk]]) 05:15, 19 October 2024 (UTC) * '''Change''' With the frequency that some new editor (or even an obtuse veteran editor) proclaims &quot;how is this not notable?&quot;, it would be so much easier to call this guideline something to do with the minimum quality/quantity coverage needed for a stand-alone article. : The hard part, in my opinion, is finding a consensus on what would be better. But if you skip passed the jargon, the most prominent parts of the guideline have some recurring words for what the plain meaning of this guideline is. :* From the (IMO) buried lead: {{xt|A topic is presumed to be suitable for a '''stand-alone article''' or list when it has received '''significant coverage''' in reliable '''sources that are independent''' of the subject.}} :* From the current lead: {{xt|&quot;Information on Wikipedia must be verifiable; if no reliable, '''independent sources''' can be found on a topic, then it should not have a '''separate article'''.&quot;}} :* From the nutshell: {{xt|&quot;We consider '''evidence from reliable and independent sources''' to gauge this attention.}} : Assuming we can find a consensus to give this guideline a more plain and clear title, we can overcome two decades of intertia with a redirect, a hatnote, and a shorter introduction. The substance of the guideline would not need to change. [[User:Shooterwalker|Shooterwalker]] ([[User talk:Shooterwalker|talk]]) 23:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC) ::Perhaps, after this, we brainstorm put forward 5 or so new titles (like &quot;Article Sourcing Test&quot;, &quot;Page Sourcing guide&quot; &quot;Stand Alone concept&quot;, etc.), ask people to discuss their pros and especially their cons, pick the strongest, and then do a rank choice of 3 or 4 alternatives against the current title. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 10:43, 21 October 2024 (UTC) :::Shall we do that in a new section, or on a new page? [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 16:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I suppose after this, I would suggest moving to VPProposals. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 19:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Or maybe [[Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)]] for the brainstorming phase. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 22:50, 21 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Keep''' Yes, it somewhat conflicts with the real-world meaning of the term (which causes problems), but there's no better word for the wiki-meaning of the term which is defined by the complex wp:notability ecosystem. Trying to tidy up wp:notability will take some fundamental work (starting with understanding/acknowledging how it actually works) not attempting an impossible word change. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 19:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC) *:impossible what? [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 19:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC) *::Impossible to find a better word to describe what wp:notability is. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 17:03, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *:::That sounds like an argument for using &quot;a phrase&quot; instead of &quot;a word&quot;. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 17:25, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *::::I don't think that even a phrase would be enough. Despite ostensibly being only about the core guidelines / GNG, the operative meaning is that it is a term for a crowd decision which is often based primarily on degree of GNG compliance, sometimes based primarily on degree of enclyclopedicness (per a few SNG's), also influenced by degree of compliance with [[wp:not]] (which is a measure of enclyclopecicness), and slightly influenced by real-world notability. If you can get all of that into a phrase, you are a magician. :-) &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 18:21, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::Well, I'll conflict with myself and give a phrase for what it really is....the WP: Separate Article Criteria. WP:SAC :- &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 18:27, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::I would go with &quot;Stand Alone Article Criteria&quot; - [[User:Enos733|Enos733]] ([[User talk:Enos733|talk]]) 18:31, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::Yes, that's better. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 20:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::: Except, both imply that if the criteria is met then the topic ''should'' have a separate page, when some related topics should stay merged. —[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 21:20, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Keep''' since I don't think I have put my opinion here in bold. All the calls to change it without any idea what it is going to change to are fatuous, and all of the suggested long-winded phrasal titles like &quot;guide to which topics should be included as articles on Wikipedia&quot; are non-starters; we need something short and snappy. Which we have already. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 17:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Keep''' until / unless we have a better option. Perhaps a better name could be found, but you've gotta actually find it; I don't want to end up in a situation where people are like &quot;we have a consensus to change it!&quot; for the next year or so with no actual agreement on what to change it to. And there's inherent disruption to changing long-standing terminology, so we'd need a ''specific'', clearly-better name before we could talk seriously about changing it. I'm also not really convinced that this problem is real - what it boils down to is inexperienced users not understanding that we determine notability via [[WP:RS]] coverage, the same way we determine everything else. That's something they're going to have to learn eventually and isn't something that can be fixed with a name change. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 18:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *:I think that ''one'' of the problems boils down to inexperienced users not understanding that ''notability'' (the Wikipedia jargon) does not mean ''notability'' (the dictionary definition). Most of our in-universe jargon has some relationship to the dictionary definition, and a plain-English understanding will take you in the right direction. That's not the case with ''notability''. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 18:51, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *::Which as others have stated above, most new users get once the concept is explained to them including the difference between real world and our definition of the term. And I don't think our definition is that far off, it just requires reliance on other Wikipedia-centric terms like secondary and reliable sources. *::It is similar in the same vein that our non-free content policy varies from fair use. Some may see the terms similar but on wiki they are very different, and after a brief explanation, most get it. *::Which is why if it is easy to clear up the confusion of the real world and Wikipedia version of the notability term, in addition to how engrained the term is, there better be a significantly major improvement for the replacement term to justify all the necessary edits and checks to make that change. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 19:10, 22 October 2024 (UTC) {{discussion bottom}} == At some point this just needs to be fixed == One a a few (maybe 4 or 5) simple yet huge problems with the core Wikipedia rules, is that for something to be notable it has to be already noted somewhere else ''and'' that somewhere else has to be reliable. Most reliable sources (ie. the news) only mainly talk about important things. There are thousand of places online where you can talk about things that have millions of fans. Yet they don't get a Wikipedia page because the news originations QBF and YXH haven't talked about it. &quot;Oh but we need reliable sources so we can get information from somewhere.&quot;, you might be saying. Do you think the so called reliable sources we source just get their information handed to them from god. Like it is objectively good to sight sources when possible (especially when that source is ''where the information comes from'') but like if they can get their information from somewhere, why can't we do the same? &quot;oh but its original research!1!&quot;- no. Its not original research to say &quot;this web show is made by these people and its about this&quot; or to say &quot;this is a popular mod for this video game that allows you to do this&quot;. And then we can't even source some things like youtube video essays from reliable people (some of which are some of the most knowledgeable people on a subject). Something major needs to be fixed here. [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]] ([[User talk:2007GabrielT|talk]]) 21:44, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :Hi [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]]. It is permissible to use primary sources to verify straightforward statements of fact ([[WP:PRIMARY]]). The reason why we use secondary sources is because the community has decided that it is not appropriate for an encyclopedic work to be purely an indiscriminate and context-free collection of facts ([[WP:NOTDATABASE]]/[[WP:NOTSTATS]]) and thus secondary analytic or evaluative claims are required to provide context. Since such secondary claims by definition require the interpretation, rather than mere restatement of primary source material, it is not possible to do so without original research, for which we require to come from an reliable published source. (Youtube video essays {{em|may}} qualify as reliable if the author is a {{em|recognised}} expert with publications in the field, which would be the kind of thing you'd need to prove being the most knowledgeable person on the subject, see [[WP:EXPERTSPS]]) :It is unlikely that the project will reverse course on such a fundamental aspect of policy, especially since the trend seems to be going in rather the opposite direction, however, you may find other projects with more compatible goals built with wiki software. For example, [[Everything2]] is another wiki that actually predates Wikipedia and [[MediaWiki]] software, without any of our policies on subject matter (as I understand it). There are also similar projects using MediaWiki software (or extensions like [[Wikibase]], or potentially [[Wikifunctions]]) which also have different scopes to this one (for example, wiki hosting hubs like Miraheze). Ultimately, there is a fairly broad consensus that this encyclopedia is not intended to be everything ([[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]]) and while it might be unfortunate, it is not considered something that can or likely will be fixed. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 23:25, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :One of the strange things to come out of the internet in the last decade is obscurity. I follow several content creators who get millions of views, but they are basically unknown outside of that in-group. If you polled the general populus on these things they would have no idea what you meant. Although the internet has given visibility to such figures or group it is to only a tiny part of a vastly expanded viewership, the end result is paradoxically having much greater range and engagement while still remaining obscure and unknown. :Unless Wikipedia is to become an indiscriminate collection of stuff it will have to rely on how other sources responded to that phenomenon, until then there are always other wikis. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 00:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::Other “''valid sources''” don't talk about a lot of those things. But like thats due to what we consider a valid source. The news or academic papers aren’t going to talk about a somewhat popular video game mod or youtube series or other user generated content. But, as you said, that doesn’t stop them from being well known things in their community. [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]] ([[User talk:2007GabrielT|talk]]) 16:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::You really believe academic sources haven't studied video game mods and popular YouTube content? Because, they most certainly do and have. [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&amp;as_sdt=0%2C6&amp;q=game+modding&amp;btnG=] [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&amp;as_sdt=0%2C6&amp;q=youtube+popularity&amp;btnG=] [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::They don’t document the mods or the youtube content themselves in any way. At most they would mention a few by name. [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]] ([[User talk:2007GabrielT|talk]]) 17:04, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::::True. And so, those are not appropriate subjects for full articles on Wikipedia. As has been explained to you many times, Wikipedia is not the only website on the Internet. If you want to write about them, you would just need to use some other venue to do that, be it a site of your own, a blog, social media, a [[wiki farm]], whatever have you. We have a certain scope, and that's not likely to change, but that doesn't mean you can't write about it ''anywhere'', just not here. Similarly, some people want to write their own opinions about a subject. They [[WP:NPOV|can't do that here]], but that doesn't mean they can't do it anywhere; many sites would welcome such material, and of course if you set up your own website than you make the rules there. It's just out of scope here. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 22:17, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::I ''could'' make my own encyclopedia. But do you really want that? What good would that accomplish. In the therortical best case scenario we end up with a wiki with all the information on Wikipedia rewritten (which takes a very long time) with some more information included and maybe slightly different formatting. Or we could just use the wiki we have and make it better [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]] ([[User talk:2007GabrielT|talk]]) 13:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::You are aware that there are numerous other wikis out there for specialized topics, where this type of content can be included? Wikipedia is not meant to catalog everything (per [[WP:NOT#IINFO]]), but these specialized wikis are far better for this type of content. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 14:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Yea and most of them have information that shouldn't ever be on Wikipedia (eg. the Minecraft Wiki, Wookieepedia). In fact I can only think of one wiki with information that could theoretically be on Wikipedia, the Polytope Wiki (not to say that there aren't). Also what even is &quot;this topic&quot;? [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]] ([[User talk:2007GabrielT|talk]]) 23:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :::Error OK then, valid sources. It still doesn't change my point. The internet exposes media to potentially billions of views, having millions of views in that context isn't very noteworthy. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 17:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :As has been said elsewhere, something having a lot of fans does not mean it has been discussed in a way that WP could use to write an article. Random anonymous forum posts or youtube comments on popular items like BFDI (which this post seems to be about) are never the basis for academic tertiary resources, so why should they be acceptable for Wikipedia? [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 02:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::I’m not saying any old anonymous forum posts or youtube comments should be vaild sources but when its a video essay by a reliable YouTuber I think that should count [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]] ([[User talk:2007GabrielT|talk]]) 16:37, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::What is a &quot;reliable YouTuber&quot;? We do consider some select non journalistic content creators to be reliable but typically because other reliable sources frequently refer to the persons content and deem it factual in the past. But just claiming a YouTube is reliable is not going to cut it. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 16:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::A &quot;reliable YouTuber&quot; can be determined the same way you determine if anything else is reliable, no? And the amount of independently made high quality sources of information that exist in the word is only going to keep increasing at a faster and faster rate. Its not going to be logical to not include them. [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]] ([[User talk:2007GabrielT|talk]]) 16:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::::The standard for &quot;reliable&quot; is when they have separate editorial oversight, who has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. So there are some YouTube channels that meet this standard, but most don't. [[User:Shooterwalker|Shooterwalker]] ([[User talk:Shooterwalker|talk]]) 17:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::I concur with User:Shooterwalker on this specific point. The point of [[WP:V]] and [[WP:RS]] as elaborated upon by [[Wikipedia:Identifying and using self-published works]] is that we treat certain sources as more reliable because their stories had to pass through editorial oversight before they went live. We do not treat certain [[contributor network]]s (e.g., ''Forbes'') as reliable sources (except as self-published sources to the extent they are speaking only about themselves) because those networks allow contributors to publish posts that go live immediately with no editorial review before publication. In general, an editor is able to enforce a consistent tone and reject stories or passages inconsistent with that tone, and the knowledge that one will need to run that gauntlet to get a story published serves as an additional check on writers. If a topic is truly notable and is newsworthy or worthy of academic study, there is no shortage of writers and editors who can and will publish a source that qualifies as a reliable source under [[WP:RS]]. Yes, these rules can be very frustrating at times, but they are what keeps WP from degenerating into just another wildly inaccurate blog. --[[User:Coolcaesar|Coolcaesar]] ([[User talk:Coolcaesar|talk]]) 16:29, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::Editors would never agree on applying weight or original research required to complete an article. And creating an article would promote the fame of the youtuber and his views. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 17:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::No more than having a page about a train station would promote the fame of the train station [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]] ([[User talk:2007GabrielT|talk]]) 17:57, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Not a good example… the notability of train stations is a HUGE debate around here. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 18:09, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::Oh of course it is 😒 [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]] ([[User talk:2007GabrielT|talk]]) 21:34, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I don't think we officially care about whether &quot;creating an article would promote the fame of&quot; any subject (or the infamy, as the case may be). If the subject qualifies for a separate article, and some volunteer wants to write it, then we shouldn't be worrying about whether the subject could benefit. ::::Years ago, [[Molly Ivins]] wrote about a Texas politician she despised: [https://www.npr.org/2019/09/15/760632698/a-portrait-of-molly-ivins-maverick-texas-journalist-in-raise-hell &quot;I think the meanest thing I ever said about one of them was that he ran on all fours, sucked eggs and had no sense of humor,&quot; she said. &quot;And I swear I saw him in the Capitol the next day and all he said was, 'Baby, you put my name in your paper!'&quot;] We shouldn't be in the business of caring whether a subject might be pleased ''or'' displeased about the existence of an article. If a verifiable, neutral article about a notable subject makes all the dreams come true – or if it dashes all their hopes – then We. Should. Not. Care. ::::Also, purely as a practical matter, the median Wikipedia article gets one page view per week. Half of our articles get 50 readers per year ''or less''. That's hardly &quot;promoting the fame&quot; of the subjects. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 04:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::Depends on what you mean by promoting, if it is the Wikipedian doing the promoting, it is promoting; if what Molly Ivens did also had the effect of promoting, even were that not her purpose, we are more interested in her purpose, as evidenced by her mode of publishing, platform and organization (and, of course, opinion content altogether has more specialized things, we care about, like even more emphasis on weight). Besides, we should under BLP care and often do care about privacy interests of subjects, even by deciding what's private and what's not (and who is private and who is not), which in part may often go back to who published, and why, how and where the info is published. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 10:25, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::Ivins blatantly insulted a politician (probably in [[The Dallas Morning News|''The Dallas Morning News'']]), and the target of her insults was happy about it, because he believed that &quot;any publicity is good publicity&quot;. :::::::Wikipedia editors should not take the same view. Wikipedia editors should not take the view that {{xt|a verifiable, neutral article}} (take careful note of those words) is promotional. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 02:25, 26 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::'Verifiable, neutral' is in part another way to say 'not promotional' so your argument is a tautology. To test 'verifiable, neutral' as with 'not promotional', as I indicated above, examination of the quality and strength of sourcing, together with sourcing-to-text congruence, is needed. That way you address bias, if the bias or the original research of the Wikipedia writer is to promote, or other biases. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 15:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::No neutral article is promotional. A verifiable one can be, but a neutral article can't be. [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]] ([[User talk:2007GabrielT|talk]]) 22:01, 26 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::What a silly line of argument. Are we all done here, having said what we needed to get said? &lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Avenir, sans-serif&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;&lt;span style=&quot;border-radius:5px;padding:.1em .4em;background:#faeded&quot;&gt;[[User:HTGS|HTGS]]&lt;/span&gt;&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:HTGS|talk]])&lt;/span&gt; 03:26, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::If it's true – and we have just agreed that it is – that a verifiable, neutral article is not promotional, then it is ''not'' true that {{!xt|&quot;creating an article would promote the fame of&quot;}} the subject, [[Wikipedia talk:Notability#c-The Four Deuces-20241024171300-2007GabrielT-20241024163700|as claimed above]]. Only creating a ''promotional'' article would &quot;promote the fame of&quot; the subject, at least in any way that Wikipedia editors should be caring about. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 07:10, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::But that was said in the context of original research and weak sourcing, so the concern regarding promotion is a natural concern of Wikipedia editors -- something to care about. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 15:26, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Literally all of this was the result of the OP likely complaining about the lack of [[WP:BFDI|BFDI]] on Wikipedia and probably not reading the reasons as to why it doesn't have an article. There was barely anything to be said in the first place... &lt;span style=&quot;border:#000000;border:2px solid #000000;padding:2px&quot;&gt;'''λ''' [[User:NegativeMP1|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#264e85&quot;&gt;'''Negative'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:NegativeMP1|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7d43b5&quot;&gt;'''MP1'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 16:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::BFDI is just collateral damage to the bigger problem at play here. I don't even like BFDI lol [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]] ([[User talk:2007GabrielT|talk]]) 20:26, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :here's an idea, open and establish a reliable publication which focuses on the YouTubers. In a few years time, let's revisit creating BLPs for these people. [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 04:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::Apparently this is a hot take, but I believe that if something is important enough to have a page it would be important irregardless of if it has sources. Step one is to find out if it ''should'' have a page. [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]] ([[User talk:2007GabrielT|talk]]) 21:08, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::[[Wikipedia:Notability|Little do you know that we came up with a pretty functional solution to determine whether or not something is &quot;important enough&quot; to have a page]]. It's unfortunate that you refuse to acknowledge it, and [[Wikipedia:No original research|why sources are required on Wikipedia]]. &lt;span style=&quot;border:#000000;border:2px solid #000000;padding:2px&quot;&gt;'''λ''' [[User:NegativeMP1|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#264e85&quot;&gt;'''Negative'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:NegativeMP1|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7d43b5&quot;&gt;'''MP1'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:44, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I acknowledge that its flawed [[User:2007GabrielT|2007GabrielT]] ([[User talk:2007GabrielT|talk]]) 13:01, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::2007, editors here have spent years developing and refining policy on your step one: significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the article subject is the minimum standard. You may disagree with the settled policy and think it &quot;just needs to be fixed&quot;, but the vast majority of editors don't. That unfortunately means you're tilting at windmills here. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 13:18, 28 October 2024 (UTC) == Discussion on suggestion to revise the SNG [[WP:NBAND]] == I believe it's way too lenient and inclusive. Just started a discussion on updating the rule. [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Issues_with_antiquated_guideline_for_WP:NBAND_that_essentially_cause_run_of_the_mill_non-notable_items_to_be_kept|Discussion]] [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 06:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :Can you point to cases where [[WP:NBAND]] was met but the AfD decision was a consensus to delete? [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 11:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC) == Challenged notability template == The template [[Template:Notability/doc|guideline]] reads &quot;The template must not be re-added. &quot; What policy is this based on? If notability is in doubt and discussion is being held about it, but an editor removes the template without really satisfying [[WP:WTRMT]], it would side with unwarranted template removal and leaves no option but to take it to AfD. The article that lead to this issue is [[Pacific Repertory Theatre]] whose notability is in question and the discussion in progress is hardly a consensus. Could we remove the &quot;must not&quot; and change it to something like must adhere to [[WP:3RR]] unless that &quot;must not remove&quot; is supported with a policy? [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 05:28, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Just to be clear: [[Template:Notability]]. &amp;ndash;&amp;#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 07:00, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::To be clear, I did leave an explanation in my edit summary when removing the tag. I also pointed out a lack of notability issue on the talk page. I added multiple sources with significant coverage; enough to satisfy both [[WP:SIGCOV]] and [[WP:NONPROFIT]]. The tag is no longer appropriate. I think taking it to [[WP:AFD]] is obviously inappropriate, and would be [[WP:POINTY]] in light of the referencing but welcome it if only to end the conflict decisively. Graywalls has not been acting in good faith on the talk page, and I don’t see this being sorted through further discussion there. AFD would probably be the best next step.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 07:54, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I don't know about anyone else, but things like {{tq|Graywalls has not been acting in good faith on the talk page}} should be brought up at a venue like AN, because if you bring them up at AfD I know I'm not going to want to touch them with a ten foot stick. If you're {{em|not}} going to bring it up at AN then either keep it to user talk pages (and not article or guideline talk pages) or strike them. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 08:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::::@{{u|Alpha3031}} I think under the circumstances it’s justified. Sources from reputable academic publications are being challenged as insignificant under [[WP:ONUS]] when they contain relevant significant coverage while simultaneously claims are being made that no significant coverage exists. It’s impossible to work with someone who’s claiming for example an academic case study on the Pacific Repertory Theatre published by [[Routledge]] (clearly a high quality source under [[WP:SIGCOV]]) should be excluded as irrelevant while they are simultaneously demanding evidence of significant coverage. Look at the talk page. I cannot work with someone who isn’t willing to recognize a quality source with independent significant coverage when it’s brought forward, and actively works to remove and exclude it from the article.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 08:51, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::That's a content dispute there. While I was enlightened to the matter right now from that discussion, it's a different issue. [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 11:06, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::If this is a content dispute I suggest [[WP:Dispute resolution]] and if it's behaviour [[WP:ANI]]. Neither are going to be resolved here. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 12:26, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Ignoring the other aspects it is a bit odd to have one template that is like this, while all other similar templates don't have this restriction. If an editor removed the template five years ago, but the issues remain why couldn't a new editor unrelated to the first discussion added it?-- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 12:28, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::The language was changed on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Notability/doc&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1008251907 this edit] in 2021 by {{user|Hawkeye7}}. I see nothing in talk page discussions for that change. I would revert it, but being clear that edit-warring over the tag shouldn't be done. --[[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 12:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::&quot;Must&quot; is rarely used in policies and guidelines, so it seems odd to have such a definitive command in a template documentation. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 12:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::True: You're much more likely to find the word ''must'' in style guidelines. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 05:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{re|Masem}}, shouldn't it be under the same [[WP:3RR]] like everything else? It's odd how that template is designated into its own 1RR [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 14:54, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::done. I noted that it was delayed discovery. [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 15:00, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::What happened was that an article was tagged, and then taken to AfD, where it was kept. The tag was then removed, but the original editor who had tagged the article re-added it, saying that his opinion was what was most important, not consensus. [[User:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#800082&quot;&gt;Hawkeye7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User_talk:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;(discuss)&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:36, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::That's a local issue. I disagree with adjusting the policy on a template that is in used in tens of thousands of articles based on one experience. I think such a sweeping change calls for consensus from a broad community by formal RfC. [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 18:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Fair enough. But the advice in the template that it can never be removed, even after an AfD, was not subject to an RfC either. [[User:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#800082&quot;&gt;Hawkeye7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User_talk:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;(discuss)&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:50, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::I don't think it's odd. We have a formalized process to resolve notability disputes called [[WP:AFD]], which isn't something that's true of other tags. &amp;mdash; &lt;samp&gt;[[User:Rhododendrites|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:90%;letter-spacing:1px;text-shadow:0px -1px 0px Indigo;&quot;&gt;Rhododendrites&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-size:80%;&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/samp&gt; \\ 13:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::I think that nominating for deletion is a good alternative to re-adding the template. I do, however, think that the language in the template documentation should be tweaked to clarify that re-adding the template shortly after a &quot;no consensus&quot; AfD close is appropriate. (Since &quot;no consensus&quot; does not determine to be notable, but an immediate renomination is not appropriate.) [[User:Russ Woodroofe|Russ Woodroofe]] ([[User talk:Russ Woodroofe|talk]]) 13:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Mixed feelings, but tend to disagree. This puts all of the power -- to remove the tag and to escalate -- with the person who places the tag (and presumably failed to find consensus that the subject isn't notable). It becomes a game of satisfying that person. Renomination is always a possibility, after all, but the person who wants to remove the tag has no power -- they have to appease the person who added it. They can't even really renominate it themselves, as we don't accept nominations based on &quot;I think it should be kept&quot;. &amp;mdash; &lt;samp&gt;[[User:Rhododendrites|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:90%;letter-spacing:1px;text-shadow:0px -1px 0px Indigo;&quot;&gt;Rhododendrites&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-size:80%;&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/samp&gt; \\ 13:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::::We should be treating the notability temple the same as {{tl|more citations needed}}... It is a call to get editors to boost the sourcing for improving the presumption of notability. Even if the article survives an AFD say due to scraping by on an SNG, the tag is still appropriate to use to indicate that further improvement to notability can be made. This the large about &quot;not re-added&quot; doesn't make any sense. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 13:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::If you think it means {{tl|more citations needed}}, use {{tl|more citations needed}}. &amp;mdash; &lt;samp&gt;[[User:Rhododendrites|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:90%;letter-spacing:1px;text-shadow:0px -1px 0px Indigo;&quot;&gt;Rhododendrites&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-size:80%;&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/samp&gt; \\ 14:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::I mean in the sense both those templates are asking for additional sourcing of sone type to be added. If the topic appears motae but lacks sources the use the more citations needed template to get editors to add more. If the topic appears to be lacking notability, add the notability template to get editors to add more sources demonstrating notability. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 15:13, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::But again, if you're using it to &quot;ask for additional sourcing&quot;, use &quot;more citations needed&quot;. Notability isn't about what sources are cited, but what sources exist. No amount of editing will change notability. A notability tag doesn't say &quot;not enough sources in the article&quot; but &quot;not enough sources exist&quot;. Someone can dispute that without adding citations, at which point it should go to AfD (where there will be additional burden put on those who argue to keep it). &amp;mdash; &lt;samp&gt;[[User:Rhododendrites|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:90%;letter-spacing:1px;text-shadow:0px -1px 0px Indigo;&quot;&gt;Rhododendrites&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-size:80%;&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/samp&gt; \\ 15:40, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::For notability, sources have to be identified, even if not included in the article but listed on the talk page. Ideally they should also be included to give an idea of the type of significant coverage they give, but at bare minimum is showing they exist. So an article only resting on one or two sources for notability and editors argue more sources must exist, the tag says they should do they work to at least ID them. And if they can actually do that, that's a good reason to remove the tag. That's also why BEFORE is an essential part of a good AFD mom, to prove that claim was misguided. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 15:54, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::{{tq|Notability requires only that suitable independent, reliable sources exist in the real world; it does not require their immediate presence or citation in an article.}} So again, tagging for notability just asserts that those sources don't exist. Someone else can remove asserting they do exist. Then it's resolved via AfD. &amp;mdash; &lt;samp&gt;[[User:Rhododendrites|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:90%;letter-spacing:1px;text-shadow:0px -1px 0px Indigo;&quot;&gt;Rhododendrites&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-size:80%;&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/samp&gt; \\ 15:57, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::If someone claims they exist but do not provide any evidence to that end (which at minimum would be sufficient citation or links to those sources, somewhere on the talk page), that's not a valid challenge to the tag. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 17:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::The only place where providing evidence of those alleged sources is required is at AFD. There is no rule that says articles have to &quot;demonstrate&quot; notability. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 05:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{ping| Rhododendrites}} I'm speaking only in the period immediately following a &quot;no consensus&quot; close, when it's not appropriate to renominate for deletion. After a month or two has passed, then I think it falls back to &quot;do not re-add, instead nominate for AfD&quot;. I hear your concerns, but also tend to think that if someone was unable to convince the community of a keep, then the tag is not unwarranted. It is a narrow situation, but arose e.g. with [[Kevin Knuth]]. [[User:Russ Woodroofe|Russ Woodroofe]] ([[User talk:Russ Woodroofe|talk]]) 18:40, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I like the idea by Russ Woodroofe, it is inappropriate to readd the template in certain situations and the language is much more fitting for a template. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 23:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Trying to use template documentation to control disruptive behaviour issues is just a bad idea. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 23:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::Not necessarily. The /doc pages for {{tl|POV}} tags have done a pretty good job of controlling disruptive behavior. The rules there say that if there's no active discussion going on, then the POV tag can be removed by any editor. This rule has caused many editors to start a discussion. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 05:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::That would be a much better solution here than the current one. That discussion is required is already part of policy. A template saying that it can be removed unless there is discussion, is a better idea than a template that says it mustn't be added. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 11:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::In the general case, I agree (for any set of rules on removing; it needn't necessarily be &quot;discussion is required&quot; for every maintenance tag). ::::::::In the particular case, I believe there has occasionally been a problem in the past with the article being tagged as a public protest against AFD's refusal to delete it. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::In that case [[WP:POINT]] exists, there's no need to try and reinforce it in template documentation, and any template can be removed if an editor believes it's no longer valid. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 08:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::While that's true, there are a lot of (newer) editors who seem to believe that tag removal requires some Official Process™. I think [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Notability/doc&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1254548872 the recent change] is good enough to resolve this one. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 19:43, 18 November 2024 (UTC) I think that, if an editor insists that the notability of a topic is dubious but this template is removed, then the recourse should be AfD, not edit-warring to reinstate a banner-of-shame on the article. The banner should remain off the article to avoid prejudicing the AfD, and once the AfD is concluded with a consensus, notability will have been determined. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 14:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Calling it a &quot;banner if shame&quot; is a remnant of the inclusionist/deletionists war as well as from the ARS fallout, and we shouldnt try to trivialize it like that. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 15:10, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::That was probably an overstatement but it's presence does leave / influence impressions about the article. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 16:02, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::It has nothing to do with inclusionism or deletionism. I think editor-facing content like that should be on talk pages. In articles (especially those about living people) airing our dirty laundry in front of the readers like that puts negative and unsourced content about the subject front-and-center, before the actual intended content of the article. If we are to do that, it should only be for limited time periods while the article is actively changing, or in cases where a public warning about the reliability of the content is warranted. Semi-permanent notability tags are neither of those things. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 17:02, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::That argument could apply to all maintence tags. The point of those tags is both to help editors to know there are issues to resolve, and to see if readers can positively help to correct. None of that is dirty laundry, but essential for building the work. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 17:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::::The problem is that some editors believe that the tags are a means of personal expression, and that regardless of the outcome of an AfD, they are entitled to keep the banner on the page. Whether you want to call it &quot;banner of shame&quot; or not, the banner bars the article from DYK, GA, FAC etc, and therefore blocks the article from ever being improved. [[User:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#800082&quot;&gt;Hawkeye7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User_talk:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;(discuss)&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::That's nonsense. You're seriously claiming that no one will bother to improve an article unless it can be nominated for DYK/GA/FAC? Really? [[User talk:Ravenswing|'''&lt;span style=&quot;background:#2B22AA;color:#E285FF&quot;&gt; '' Ravenswing '' &lt;/span&gt;''' ]] 20:09, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::That is the usual route for improvement. Someone could always decide to improve it on their own bat, but it would definitely be discouraged. Why improve an article with a permanent maintenance banner in preference to one that is not? As Masem says, the point of those tags should be to help editors to know there are issues to resolve, and to see if readers can positively help to correct. But correction of notability is not possible, because notability has nothing to do with the actual content of the article. Notability is about whether sources exist. [[User:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#800082&quot;&gt;Hawkeye7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User_talk:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;(discuss)&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:25, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::The vast majority of editors have no interest in nominating anything for DYK/GA, yet they still improve pages... [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 21:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Exactly. I'm not concerned with DYK/GA/FAC and am not required to care. [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 23:56, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::No, it's far from it. I've taken an article to DYK/FA/GA about three dozen times. I've been working on articles for twenty years now, without any such goal in mind. Doing so without going for glory might &quot;definitely be discouraged&quot; in your own head, but tens of thousands of editors do just that, every single day. [[User talk:Ravenswing|'''&lt;span style=&quot;background:#2B22AA;color:#E285FF&quot;&gt; '' Ravenswing '' &lt;/span&gt;''' ]] 12:59, 1 November 2024 (UTC) Theoretically wp:notability is an attribute of the ''topic'' rather than the article. Operationally it means that it is doubted and has not been confirmed / established. There are many many scenarios, reasons and directions it can go. But let's narrow it to the situation implicit in the OP. Which is that someone thinks that the tag should not be there. Then all of the normal &quot;debate&quot; rules about tags in general apply and the zillions of possibilities. This is despite the difference that arises from it being about attribute of the ''subject'' so the two routes are adding GNG sources or to debate the tag &amp; notability of the subject. So the normal tag debate process applies rather than there being any simple categorical rule about keeping/removing. But the normal process does lean a bit towards keep (the tag) on an edge case. The other fundamental difference does not really change this which is that it is ultimately about the existence of the article rather than improvement of the article. And availability of AFD as the ultimate arbiter of that. Sincerely, &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 20:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :{{PING|North8000}} &lt;s&gt;Graywalls has asserted that AFD is ''not'' &quot;the ultimate arbiter&quot; of notability and &quot;such a drastic change&quot; to make it so will require an RFC ie cannot be decided by local consensus here.&lt;/s&gt; [[User:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#800082&quot;&gt;Hawkeye7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User_talk:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;(discuss)&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:49, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::{{re|Hawkeye7}}, where's the diff where I said such a thing? I was talking about the need for an RfC before you gone ahead and unilaterally modified the instructions [[Special:Diff/1008251907|here]]. [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 23:13, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::You said it above: &quot;I think such a sweeping change calls for consensus from a broad community by formal RfC&quot;. The change that asserted that AFD was the ultimate arbiter of notability. It came after an editor insisted on re-applying the banner after the article was kept on AFD. Now we are back to the template documentation saying that if the banner is re-added after the article is marked as kept at AFD, the banner may not be removed. [[User:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#800082&quot;&gt;Hawkeye7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User_talk:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;(discuss)&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::{{re|Hawkeye7}}, I asserted nothing about AFD. I was specifically addressing your unilateral change to template documentation. I ask that you strike out that statement in [[Wikipedia_talk:Notability#c-Hawkeye7-20241031214900-North8000-20241031204200]] [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 23:52, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I have stricken for you, but do not understand your position. The template documentation change asserted that AFD was the ultimate arbiter of notability. Are you opposed to that or not? Do we need an RFC? [[User:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#800082&quot;&gt;Hawkeye7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User_talk:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;(discuss)&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC) *It sounds like we need a slightly different tag… one that says notability has been ''asserted'', but additional sources are needed to ''verify'' the assertions. THAT is a WP:Verifiability (and thus a content) issue. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 00:21, 1 November 2024 (UTC) *:A different tag will not change the issue, that when there is an intractable difference of opinion regarding notability, there is no maintenance that can be done that will change the issue, so a maintenance tag on the article has no purpose other than to discourage readers and make the anti-notability side of the dispute feel happy for being allowed to express their feelings. Those are not encyclopedic purposes. Notability tags should be very temporary, on articles in progress where notability might reasonably be made more clear by further editing. For long-established articles, if there is still a dispute it needs to be resolved by AfD or some such consensus-establishing process rather than allowing the notability tag to stand essentially permanently. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 00:30, 1 November 2024 (UTC) *:{{tl|sources exist}}? [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 02:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC) Everyone seems to be focused on sourcing issues, but in this case there are no valid sourcing problems. A large number of sources have been located and added to the [[Pacific Repertory Theatre]] article (also a list of additional refs on the talk page), and we still have people questioning notability even after providing lots of evidence of independent significant coverage that extends way beyond the minimum sourcing requirement to prove notability. We need to recognize that there will always be cases of editors making non-notability claims that just aren’t reasonable or based in reality or policy language. There are cases like these where there is clear evidence of notability to high quality sources with inline citations in the article where editors continue to erroneously make claims of non notability and pursue an inappropriate path even when faced with a mountain of evidence that that path is not justified under Wikipedia’s own policies and guidelines regarding notability.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 07:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC) :This appears to be part of the walled garden of Carmel content discussed in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1163#Topic_Ban_or_Site_Block,_Greghenderson2006]. Not all Carmel topics are non-notable but I suspect the background to the linked discussion may be driving some of the animus towards this article. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 17:46, 1 November 2024 (UTC) ::@{{u|David Eppstein}} Yikes. I wasn't aware of that drama. To add to this, another editor was apparently paid to edit the article. I understood the animosity to the article to begin with due to the paid editing, but you would think once this was brought to [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musical Theatre]] (which is how I got involved) and longtime wikipedians from that project worked to source, re-write, and improve the article that others would see the value of the page to the encylopedia and be able to let go of that animus in light of the quality of the sourcing. Best.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 22:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC) *A user who knowingly adds a notability tag to an article that has survived AfD where notability was discussed and assessed is editing disruptively against consensus. If the repeated template was a mistake, remove it. If the user believes it should be there because AfD got it wrong, then DRV or AfD again per RENOM, after removing the template in the mean time. All maintenance templates should be added and removed in good faith, and demonstrated non-good-faith (not just disagreement) should be dealt with as a user conduct issue in a user conduct forum (e.g., ANI). [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 22:29, 1 November 2024 (UTC) *:I had experienced difficulty with using the tag, because one invoked &quot;must not be added&quot; pointing to the template doc. That was not shortly after &quot;keep&quot; finding. Basically, it was being treated like PROD where once put on, it can't be put on. [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 04:48, 2 November 2024 (UTC) *::In such cases, I suggest just ...not caring about whether there is a tag on the article. The tags have relatively limited utility, and there is nothing you can do with the tag that you can't equally well do without it. If you really believe that it's not notable, then take it to AFD and get the question settled. If you don't believe that, then you shouldn't be trying to tag it as being non-notable in the first place. *::Before you go back to the article to think about your chances at AFD, please note this line in the GNG: {{xt|&quot;Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material&quot;}}. All those sources whose main topic is a person or a production associated with the theater, but which also provide some information about the theater itself (some people use the standard of [[Wikipedia:One hundred words]] for this), count as demonstrating notability under the GNG rules. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 05:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == Notability and oldest people == Should all notable centenarians, supercentenarians can be presumed notable per [[WP:NPEOPLE]] and [[WP:NLIST]], unless if uses [[WP:WTAF]] guideline. [[User:Absolutiva|Absolutiva]] ([[User talk:Absolutiva|talk]]) 13:22, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Probably should be at [[WP:NBIO]] but I don't believe we should ever have automatic notability. Just because someone reaches 100 is not necessarily a reason for them to be notable. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 13:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :No. Just add them to a list of oldest people and redirect the name. We don't need a dozen articles where the only sources are world record books and listicles about how these people don't eat red meat and drink a single shot of whiskey before they go to bed. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 14:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::If there is no article, better should write a new article before they create links before adding to the list. Even if there is unverified longevity claims. [[User:Absolutiva|Absolutiva]] ([[User talk:Absolutiva|talk]]) 14:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::No, better to not mention them on Wikipedia at all if the longevity claims are unverified. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 18:46, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Note the levels of probable error and fraud in this area.[https://theconversation.com/the-data-on-extreme-human-ageing-is-rotten-from-the-inside-out-ig-nobel-winner-saul-justin-newman-239023][https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/704080v3] &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 80%;color:blue&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;~&lt;/sup&gt;[[User:Hydronium Hydroxide|Hydronium&lt;sup&gt;~&lt;/sup&gt;Hydroxide]]&lt;sup&gt;~[[User talk:Hydronium Hydroxide|(Talk)]]~&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 14:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::What about in case of [[WP:BLPNAME]]? [[User:Absolutiva|Absolutiva]] ([[User talk:Absolutiva|talk]]) 14:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC) We're blending many different questions here, even within the OP. Just to clarify, wp:notability is a requirement for having a separate article on the topic. Dissecting the OP, while meeting [[WP:NPEOPLE]] would be sufficient, saying &quot;per [[WP:NPEOPLE]]&quot; is not correct because [[WP:NPEOPLE]] does not say that. [[WP:NLIST]] is not relevant because it is about wp:notability of the entire list, not of the elements in it. [[WP:WTAF]] is an essay, not a guideline, but either way I don't think that it reflects directly on this. I'm guessing that maybe Absolutiva was really thinking about is having one of those folks get a spot on a list. Wikipedia lacks guidance on this. Rules for being on the list are mostly determined by consensus at the list article. I can't imagine any list article that would categorically allow all centurians (even just the living ones would be over 300,000 people) but I could easily imagine a list that allowed all supercentenarians. Even after being allowed by the list rules, an entry would still need to meet wp:verifiability, keeping in mind that being on the the list is implicitly a statement/ claim that they meet the criteria of the list. Sincerely, &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 19:53, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :The criteria in our [[WP:PEOPLELIST]] guideline are pretty clear... [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 22:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::That's good guidance but is widely ignored/ bent. Sincerely, &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 03:56, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::North, I'm not sure that's really the case. The guidance lists a pair of criteria that are &quot;typically&quot; chosen, and then goes on to say &quot;There are some common exceptions...&quot;. The full guidance expects and endorses significant variation. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Again, it's good guidance. The core of it is that the individuals on it have wp:notability but says there are exceptions. From what I've seen exceptions are the norm For example every person who participated in a sporting evetn, every individaul that has coached a particulr team,, every individual who has received a certain award or recognition etc. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 20:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I think the first set was written with the [[List of people from New York City]] in mind, rather than the [[Team rosters for the 2001 South American Youth Championship]]. (Consider the first words: &quot;Because the subject of many lists is broad...&quot; A team roster is not a &quot;broad&quot; list.) We probably have more &quot;narrow&quot; lists than &quot;broad&quot; ones, particularly for sports and awards. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 21:14, 18 November 2024 (UTC) == Notability and youngest people == I have a concern for notability for [[List of youngest killers]]. Should all children and young people (who are criminals) can be presumed notable per [[WP:NPEOPLE]] and [[WP:NLIST]], unless if uses [[WP:WTAF]] guideline. Even that violates [[WP:BLPLIST]] and [[WP:MINORS]] policy. [[User:Absolutiva|Absolutiva]] ([[User talk:Absolutiva|talk]]) 00:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :I think there is an argument to be made that the list does not have adequate [[WP:LSC|selection criteria]] and that the extensive lack of BLP citations requires deletion, but I think that it would likely be kept at AfD. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 01:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:Absolutiva|Absolutiva]], welcome to Wikipedia. When we say &quot;notable&quot;, we mean &quot;qualifies for a separate, stand-alone article&quot;. Nobody in the [[List of youngest killers]] is &quot;presumed notable&quot;; if we did presume them notable, we'd be saying &quot;Not only should all of these people's names be listed in the [[List of youngest killers]], but there should additionally be a separate article about each and every one of them.&quot; Merely putting someone in a list doesn't mean that they're notable (presumed or otherwise). ::Also, many of the perpetrators are unnamed and/or dead, so including them cannot violate any BLP policies. ::I'd suggest that the first thing to do with that list is to remove all the teenagers. More than 500 American minors – mostly teens – killed someone last year.[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/10/18/guns-juveniles-crime-homicide-increase/75349011007/] That's 10 a week; it's &quot;newsworthy&quot; but it's not unusual. Teenagers have served in armies throughout history, and therefore killed people throughout history; again, it may be deplorable but it's not unusual. Compare [[List of youngest fathers]], which has a cutoff of age 14, and see [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of youngest birth mothers]] for information about a list which we eventually deleted. An admin could check, but I think that list had a cutoff around age 10 or so. ::I think that some clarity around selection criteria would help, but my main suggestion would be to make sure that it's focused on &quot;youngest&quot; (which is going to mean blanking most of it), and that editors decide whether the standard is [[homicide]] (which includes &quot;accidents&quot; like dropping a loaded gun) or if it's an actual [[Murder|murder conviction]] (which requires wanting the person to end up dead, which in turn requires the killer to be old enough to understand what death is). [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 06:10, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::In the [[list of youngest fathers]], to describe males for notable cases of [[spermarche]]. For cases of [[precocious puberty]], only one is notable, and for [[teenage pregnancy]], but several are notable. But for previous deletion, these articles cannot be made compliant with [[WP:NLIST]], [[WP:NOTNEWS]]/[[WP:NOTNP]], [[WP:BLPNAME]], and [[WP:INDISCRIMINATE]]. :::Also in the [[list of youngest killers]], it does meet criteria with [[WP:EXEMPT1E]]. [[User:Absolutiva|Absolutiva]] ([[User talk:Absolutiva|talk]]) 08:53, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I don't think that the [[List of youngest fathers]] is describing notable cases of 'starting to produce sperm'. It's describing mostly royalty who got married at a very young age. [[Teenage pregnancy]] used to have a similar list ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Teenage_pregnancy&amp;oldid=481982047#History example]) but is now focused on [[Teenage pregnancy#Notable people|modern celebrities]] instead. ::::I think that a [[List of youngest killers]] can fully comply with every policy. I understand that [[WP:YOUDONTLIKEIT]], but it's a valid subject for a list (because, e.g., reliable sources write about what to do with very young children who have killed someone); it is not turning Wikipedia articles into news stories (maybe go read the links you're posting?); the killer's name is not the name of some &quot;loosely involved, otherwise low-profile person&quot; and they are very much &quot;directly involved in an article's topic&quot;; and a list of killers by age is a narrowly curated collection of information instead of &quot;an indiscriminate collection of information&quot;. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 21:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC) == Standalone list being to introduce contents unsuitable for an article == The idea of NLIST is still a bit murky to me. A pattern that I've found is the creation of exhaustive catalog/discography of non-notable/marginally notable imprint or a record labels like &quot;Five legged Red Pandas Recordings&quot; alongside &quot;Discography of Five legged Red Pandas Recordings&quot; often from editors whose editing pattern suggest promotional/marketing editing. [[WP:NOTADIRECTORY]] #6 guides that such a list of products by publisher is not appropriate. However, when such list gets spawned out into article space as a standalone list, how do we evaluate the appropriateness. [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 17:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC) Example of what I consider to be a stand alone &quot;product catalog&quot; [[Facedown Records discography]]. [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 01:43, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :Since you've read NLIST, what about it do you find unclear? I think knowing that would help with addressing your question. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 18:17, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::NLISTS discusses the notability of list itself, while [[WP:CSC]] 2 suggests something like list of paracetamol brands as valid. CSC 3 opens up concerns about causing product catalogs to be created, such as discography of a hole in wall record label citing reliable sources that merely verify the existence of the albums to justify such a list. [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 18:52, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :NLIST only says that notability doesn't apply, but all other content policies do. So a list that is against WP:NOT or even wp:v (if only sourced to primary works) would not be appropriate as standalone.&lt;span id=&quot;Masem:1732132510870:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNNotability&quot; class=&quot;FTTCmt&quot;&gt; —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 19:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt; ::It is acceptable to source the list (or indeed any article) only to primary works. It still passes [[WP:GNG]] so long it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. But they don't actually need to be used in the article. That's a common mistake that people often make at AfD, and the reason we have [[WP:BEFORE]]. [[User:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#800082&quot;&gt;Hawkeye7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User_talk:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;(discuss)&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:17, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::A label may be notable but that doesn't make the list of all album produced by it notable. And NLIST suggests that some significant coverage discussing the range or albums published should be identified. The cases I've seen show very limit support to discuss the specific albums as a list. Now, artists signed to a label, that's far more common to be covered, and that's a reasonable way to demonstrate the labels scope that meets NLIST.&lt;span id=&quot;Masem:1732143907182:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNNotability&quot; class=&quot;FTTCmt&quot;&gt; —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 23:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt; :I think you might be reading both too much and too little into [[WP:NOTPRICE]] (#6). The relevant bits say: :'''&quot;'''Lists of creative works are permitted. Thus, for example, Wikipedia should not include a list of all books published by [[HarperCollins]], but may include a bibliography of books written by HarperCollins author [[Veronica Roth#Bibliography|Veronica Roth]].&quot; :Discographies are &quot;lists of creative works&quot;, which are explicitly permitted. Ergo, there is no conflict between the policy and writing a discography. :The choice of example is more informative than you may have realized. [[HarperCollins]], which has been in business for two centuries, has published something like a quarter million works (including books published by businesses it acquired). We do not need a list with a quarter million items in it, no matter what the items are. But if it's a [[small press]], or if we're talking about a small subset (e.g., just the one author), then there's nothing wrong with having a list of all 12 or all 25 books. :NB also that the example given is not a stand-alone list, and therefore NLIST is irrelevant. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 23:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::[the distinction is about the creative aspects involved. Harper Collins doesn't direct the creative direction of what is published outside of copy edit services, so there's no reason to list every book they published. Lising every book written by an author makes far more sense since they are creatively involved for each one. Labels tend to be more outside creative aspects though there are likely smaller labels that provide more creative input in terms of mixing and production, but we should have awareness if such labels are directly part of the creative process or just pass throughs.&lt;span id=&quot;Masem:1732144108866:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNNotability&quot; class=&quot;FTTCmt&quot;&gt; —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 23:08, 20 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt; :::Hmm, I'm not sure that's true. My impression is that HarperCollins provides far more in the way of author services than just copyediting. For example, book design, illustration, and cover design are all part of the usual package of author services from a major publisher, and those are creative inputs. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 23:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Which is extremely minor in terms of the bulk creative effort in writing. We would not consider Harper to have creative imput into that. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 23:32, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::You might not, but others would. I'd say that it depends on the type of book. Illustration is an important creative input for a [[picture book]], after all. I'd also consider the &quot;copyediting&quot; done by [[Maxwell Perkins]] to be a very significant creative input. Perhaps you'd like to read about [[Developmental editor|developmental editors]] before making sweeping assertions about how little they contribute? [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 00:25, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == Requiring a neutral source == [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Notability&amp;curid=6888715&amp;diff=1257345314&amp;oldid=1257299012 At the moment], we have a footnote with an unusual requirement: {{xt|In the absence of multiple sources, it must be possible to verify that the source reflects a neutral point of view, is credible and provides sufficient detail for a comprehensive article.}} This is unusual because [[WP:ALLOWEDBIAS]] and [[WP:BIASED]] say that non-neutral sources are not required at all. But I have been thinking about this a little further: If there's (really) only reliable source, then how do you &quot;verify that the source reflects a neutral point of view&quot;? I don't think that's possible, or perhaps it's better to say that it's not a pointful type of evaluation. &quot;Neutral&quot; is defined in [[WP:NPOV]] as whatever point of view is put forward by the balance of reliable sources, so if only one reliable source exists, then that source's POV is the neutral one – automatically and by definition. I therefore think that we should take these words out. If this is meant to refer to a situation in which only one RS has been identified, then it's pointless; if this is meant to refer to a situation in which multiple RS are known to exist in the real world, but only one is being cited, then it's inconsistent with our content policies. Either way, it's not appropriate. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 00:42, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I'm not sure that's accurate either. We expect all sources to be factual. But we don't expect sources to be neutral. The encyclopedia is neutral, but we often include biased opinions, with attribution. I am not sure why it needs to be addressed here, at our Notability guideline. [[User:Shooterwalker|Shooterwalker]] ([[User talk:Shooterwalker|talk]]) 16:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :Let's say SPLC or ADL put out an article detailing a hate group, and is the only significant source that goes in significant coverage in the group. Now, both these groups generally write reliably but with a clear bias and tone against hate groups, and both groups in the past are known to aggressive categorize groups this way that don't align with other RSes in some isolated cases. I would be vary wary of being able to write a NPOV compliant article with that as the single source due to that view. Hence why that footnote is necessary.&lt;span id=&quot;Masem:1732206035689:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNNotability&quot; class=&quot;FTTCmt&quot;&gt; —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 16:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt; ::The sentence says &quot;it must be possible to verify&quot;. ''How'' does one verify whether a source reflects a neutral point of view? Don't tell me that you think it's important. Tell me the practical, step-by-step actions I can take to determine whether an article in a newspaper, or a book on a library shelf, reflects a neutral point of view when there are no other sources to compare its contents against. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 16:47, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::Is it an [[wp:sps]], for a starter, if not, Does it have a clear [[wp:cir]], those are two ways. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I was under the impression that the GNG doesn't accept self-published sources at all, so I assumed that was a given. I'm not sure why you linked to [[Wikipedia:Competence is required]], which is about &quot;people who contribute to the English-language Wikipedia&quot;. Perhaps you meant a different page? [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 16:53, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::It does not stop people trying it on. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::This is where being a responsible WP editor comes into play, we have to look at bigger pictures and historical aspects of the sources. We know SPLC and ADL are generally good but we also know they have specific advocacy roles behind what they do. We also know that in a few cases their rush to classify groups as Haye groups have been met with concern not just from said group but by other media and advocacy groups. So that tells me that while both groups may be reliable, in absence if any other sources that show agreement, they should be immediately taken as the &quot;neutral&quot; view. :::In contrast, if a BBC or NYTimes piece was the only source for a topic, these are not considered publishers with any clear bias and thus there would be less concern about using that for notability. :::This is part of what a research's job needs to include, being aware of the larger picture around topics and how those topics are covered. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 17:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Are you suggesting that editors determine whether the content is neutral, not on what the NPOV policy says (which is that content is neutral if it fairly reflects the views of all reliable sources), but instead on the reputation of the publisher? That would mean that any book published by [[HarperCollins]] is going to be okay, because they publish a wide variety of POVs in the course of a year; any book published by a small press that specializes in a POV is not. ::::I would expect editors to do some [[Opposition research]] on the author as well, if they personally dislike the content. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 17:38, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :Yes it has to be neutral as we all think we are important. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::&lt;small&gt;That sounds like it needs &lt;sarcasm&gt; tags.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 16:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::NO, it is saying that at least two policies tell us a source has to be neutral, I.E. not have a possible bias. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Which two policies do you refer to? [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 16:53, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::&lt;small&gt;That sounds like it needs &lt;sarcasm&gt; tags.&lt;/small&gt;, and with that I am out of here with a firm no. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::AFAICT, we have one policy at [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Bias in sources]] (&quot;WP:ALLOWEDBIAS&quot;) that says sources do not have to be neutral (&quot;However, biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone...&quot;), one guideline at [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Biased or opinionated sources]] (&quot;WP:RSBIAS&quot;) that says sources do not have not be neutral (&quot;reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources...&quot;), and no policies or guidelines – except this disputed footnote – that say sources have to be neutral. ::::::AFAICT we also have no policies or guidelines that say the definition of neutral is &quot;not have a possible bias&quot;. ::::::If I've overlooked something, I would be grateful for a link proving me wrong. With the information I have, however, I am forced to conclude that your statements are incorrect. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 17:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::It cones down a lot to how we state what NPOV us, it is not &quot;all sides must be presented equally&quot;, but that we should present the most prevailing views in proportion to the number of sources behind those views, with exceptions made for fringe and pseudoscience topics. If you only have one source, it is near impossible to know where the neutral POV point of balance is unless you are certain the source itself is mostly free of bias. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 17:35, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::If neutrality is measured &quot;in proportion to the number of sources&quot;, and there is only one source, then the view in that source ''is'' neutral. ::::::::What you seem to be saying is something like this: ::::::::If we have a dozen reliable sources, and 100% of them present one view, then I'll keep my own personal POV out of it. Whatever 100% of sources say is 'neutral'. ::::::::But if there's only one reliable source, and 100% of the one source present one view, then now is the time for all good editors to come to the aid of neutrality by injecting their personal POVs into deciding whether whatever 100% of reliable sources say is 'neutral'. ::::::::That doesn't align with the NPOV policy, and &quot;compare the source against my own POV&quot; – which, I remind you, this sentence says you ''must'' do – is an extremely bad way of &quot;verifying&quot; that the source is actually neutral. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 17:58, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Leaving aside the anti-values idea that we must decide whether a source is neutral based on our personal perception – because we're always going to have editors who believe that SPLC engages in [[reverse discrimination]] against white men – rather than by what the NPOV policy says (which is about whether the source matches others, which means that a source that has a very bad or very biased reputation could still be fully neutral for our purposes), I think this kind of misses the point. :::::::::Imagine that the source is hopelessly biased. Imagine that the source is &quot;Why I Think This Company Owes Me a Billion Dollars&quot; or &quot;This Politician is a Pointy-Haired Poopy-Head&quot;. :::::::::But imagine, too, that you can write a purely factual article from it, by skipping over the bits about &quot;I suffered irreparable damage when their maliciously defective product exploded on my kitchen table&quot; and focusing instead on the bits like &quot;Third-party testing from [[Underwriters' Laboratories]] determined that at a temperature of -40°C, the blue-green widget emits light with a wavelength around 550 nm&quot; or &quot;Here is a complete transcript of Paul Politician's speech that night, with notes in the margin highlighting the classical rhetorical devices he uses, including alliteration and rhyming schemes&quot;. :::::::::Why would you reject a source from which it's easy to write a purely factual article? [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 18:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Part of how NPOV is approached is the basis that the views taken by reliable sources generally align in distribution by the views of all, the latter which is impossible to quantify. We are using what RS say a sample points of the larger take on a topic. With multiple RSes, we can be pretty confident that there aggregate views likely represent the same proportion of views on the topic held by all, even with biases in sources. The more sources, the better this assumption. But with only one source, that is not an assurance that view is capturing the broader unpublished view on the topic, unless we know that source generally remains unbiased. :::::::::No we can never know what the broad views on a topic can possibly be, but having multiple RSes is what gets us there. With only one, it's really difficult to make that claim. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 18:25, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::So you argue that with a sufficiently small number of sources, it's better to rely on editors' personal POVs to determine neutrality than to reply on sources. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 18:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::I expect editors to use the skills as researchers, setting aside any POV they may have, as to evaluate sources, as we expect in all situations. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 19:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::Surely notability should be supported by more than one single source - regardless of the neutrality issue. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 20:19, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::That depends in part on whether we're talking about ''demonstrating'' notability or just ''being'' notable. We theoretically don't require demonstrating notability at all, so one might cite a source that is wholly inadequate from the GNG perspective (which is where this footnote resides) even if others are available. :::::::::::::The usual story for having one source is that for some historical subjects, the [[Dictionary of National Biography|''Dictionary of National Biography'']] might be the only source that is presently known to editors. Due to what we know about that book's inclusion criteria, it has generally been accepted as evidence that we should be able to find primary sources (e.g., 19th-century newspaper articles). [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 20:28, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::Surely notability, Wikipedia-notability, requires more than a single source. Absolutely. Where an article is acceptable with only a single source, it will be an inherently encyclopedic topic not subject to the WP:N guideline. WP:N should not pretend to cover all articles. [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 07:52, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::I would approve of telling editors to &quot;evaluate sources&quot;, but the footnote doesn't say that. The footnote ''says'' that they must [[WP:Verify]] that the source has the right POV. Do you actually think it should say that? [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 22:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC) I think that if taken in the context of it being in the GNG section of the Notability guideline, and with the realistic understanding that the ''recognition'' shown by a suitable source when they decide to provide in-depth coverage of the topic matters, then it makes more sense.....the recognition is meaningless if the source is not independent. Sincerely, &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 20:45, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I would agree with that, but it doesn't say &quot;independent&quot;. It says that it has to be verifiably neutral. We apparently don't intend for the neutrality to be verified (since we suggest no mechanism for doing that), and IMO we shouldn't be demanding neutrality (because it conflicts with [[WP:NPOV]]). :Note that this is an actual ''must'' statement, being strongly defended by Masem, who [[Wikipedia talk:No original research#c-Masem-20240825133500-Remsense-20240825071900|told us a couple of months ago]] that &quot;we generally only use such absolutes like &quot;you do not&quot; or &quot;must not&quot; in those policies with some legal ramifications&quot;. I don't think it's possible to comply with it. The sentence, as written, says you must be able to ''verify'' that the contents are neutral. So far, the best Masem's come up with is that editors should express their best editorial judgment about about whether the publisher is neutral. That's not the same thing. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 20:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::You are right. I added &quot;independent&quot; because I think that it was the type of neutrality intended in this context. Sort of like the decision to create the in-depth coverage of the topic was neutral rather than saying that the content must be neutral. (so it's not a publicity release or something written by their record label) I wasn't arguing to keep the exact same wording, just trying to see the intent of it. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 21:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::I imagine that, if it wasn't added to game a specific dispute, the intent was probably something like &quot;If you're going to [[wiktionary:en:put_all_one's_eggs_in_one_basket|put all your eggs in one basket]], then you need to be using a really trustworthy basket&quot;. The problem is that what they wrote is remarkably different from that. The actual rule says: :::* Editors must evaluate the source based on its POV (=&quot;the source reflects a neutral point of view&quot;). Only a source with the Right™ POV is acceptable. I can't think of a single other instance in which a policy or guideline tell editors to determine the suitability of a source by seeing whether it has the Right™ POV, but maybe there's something in [[WP:FRINGE]] along those lines. :::* Editors must ''verify'' that the source's POV is the right one. Usually when we talk about verifying something, we're talking about finding other sources (e.g., a book review that says the book is a good one). So instead of saying &quot;Well, I personally think that advocacy group isn't neutral&quot;, to which the next editor may reply &quot;Well, I personally think that they're extremely neutral, so there!&quot;, the wording of this footnote says we're supposed to be finding sources that say they're neutral or not. :::* But this sets us up for the fundamental logic problem: :::*# NPOV defines 'neutral' as whatever the sources say. :::*# The context of this sentence stipulates that there are no other sources. :::* So either you can have only one source, or you can have a source that verifies that the contents of the first source are neutral, but you cannot actually have a situation in which there is only one source and you are able to verify that the contents of that lone source are neutral. If you can actually 'verify' the neutrality of the contents (as opposed to, e.g., 'opine about it' or 'express my indisputably excellent editorial judgment about it'), then you no longer have a single source. :::So IMO it's wrong as written (because IMO it should follow the [[WP:ALLOWEDBIAS]] policy), and it's also self-disproving as written. The latter point could be solved by re-writing, but the first step is admitting that we have a problem. :::I'd suggest this as a way of solving problem problems: {{difftext|In the absence of multiple sources, it must be possible to verify that the source reflects a neutral point of view, is credible and provides sufficient detail for a comprehensive article.|In the absence of multiple sources, the source should be credible and provide sufficient detail for a comprehensive article. }} :::That would remove all the problems (e.g., saying that we '''must''' [[WP:Verify]] that the POV is the right one) and still let editors argue that various advocacy groups aren't sufficiently &quot;credible&quot;. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 22:04, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The issue with &quot;must&quot; is fine to fix but I think that's it's still that we want editors to be aware that using a nominally reliable but biased source as the only evidence that can be found to support notability is questionable, but to add on from what you said above, if such a source is used to stick to facts and avoid subjective content in that work's voice. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 22:42, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I think this sentence should be eliminated. GNG does not require that a source be secondary, so this could result in articles that are based entirely on a detailed primary source story in a magazine that receives no follow-up coverage. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 01:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Or, for example, it would allow for the creation of an article about an obscure historical concept covered in only a single secondary source. In order to be compliant with [[WP:NPOV]], editors would have to phrase the entire article as &quot;According to Jane Smith, '''XYZ''' is a concept. In her book, ''XYZ: A Concept'', Jane Smith wrote&amp;nbsp;.... Smith said&amp;nbsp;.... She also said&amp;nbsp;....&quot; [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 01:35, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I'm not sure what you hope to achieve. The sentence is about a neutral+credible+detailed. It doesn't say anything about primary or secondary sources. Removing it should have no effect at all on primary/secondary sources. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 02:33, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Yes, my point was GNG in general says only that secondary sources are preferred, but not required. Thus, this sentence could (and likely will) be interpreted by editors to allow an article to be written based on a single primary source so long as it is &quot;credible&quot; and &quot;detailed&quot;. The problem is that it's impossible to write a neutral article that way and it's OR. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 13:56, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::@[[User:Voorts|Voorts]], could you explain that last bit more? If you write something based upon a reliable source, then it's not OR. If you write something based upon a single reliable source, it's literally impossible for it to be SYNTH. For example: ::::::::* Reliable primary source says: &quot;Alice Expert is an expert at expertness. She graduated from Big U. with a degree in expertise and now serves as the president of the Important Academic Society.&quot; ::::::::* Wikipedia stub says: &quot;'''Alice Expert''' is the president of the {{fakelink|Important Academic Society}}.{{dummy ref}}&quot; ::::::::* Amount of material that violates NOR: Zero. ::::::::* Best guess at neutrality: It's fine (though I'd have my doubts if I tried to write something 50x this size). ::::::::I've no particular objection to removing the sentence entirely, but I think it's possible to write a ''short'' stub on most subjects from one or two really weak sources and still not violate any core content policies. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 17:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::People and scholars have different notability guidelines. NBIO makes clear multiple secondary sources are required, and NPROF relaxes the rules. So the example of the business person you provided probably wouldn't meet NBIO if only a single source exists, and the example of the head of the academic society probably meets NPROF. :::::::::To return to the example of a concept, which can only be notable under GNG, writing an article based on a single secondary source, where no other secondary sources exist, would not be neutral because it's impossible to get a second point of view. I think it would also encourage OR; some editors might be tempted to analyze the primary source documents used by the secondary source to analyze the concepts. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 18:21, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::I'm not sure that a second point of view is necessary, if the article is sufficiently short. Consider: ::::::::::* Reliable primary source: &quot;Bob Business is the founder of Big Business, Inc., which is known around the world for the quality of their blue-green widgets. Starting the business on his birthday in 1974 with money he had saved up from washing cars, he built the business from the ground up, learning as he went. Now he is the head of a company that employs hundreds of people...&quot; ::::::::::* Wikipedia article: &quot;Bob Business founded {{fake link|Big Business, Inc.}} in 1974.{{dummy ref}} ::::::::::What neutrality concerns could an editor reasonably have about this? Are we realistically going to find a &quot;second point of view&quot; about this sentence? ::::::::::I'm not sure that we'd want to have such an article, but I suggest to you that the reason to avoid this is &quot;we don't want it&quot; and not because &quot;This apparently neutral sentence, which match the contents of the cited source very closely, still somehow violates the NOR and NPOV policies, even though there isn't a single sentence in those policies that it doesn't comply with&quot;. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 21:26, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{outdent|8}} As I noted, people are different from things covered by GNG. In your example, Bob Business shouldn't have an article because if we truly only have one reliable primary source, the subject is not notable under NBASIC; this footnote and GNG wouldn't come into play. The proposed footnote text indicates to editors that it's okay to have an article based on one source so long as the source is credible and provides sufficient detail. I think the hypothetical I've provided indicates why that's not a good idea. I also agree with what @[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] said below. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 21:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::What I'm trying to understand is why, instead of saying just &quot;That's not probably notable&quot; (which I'd agree with, assuming the cited source were the only one in the world [as contrasted with the only one a Wikipedia editor had typed into the article so far]), you were earlier saying that it would violate NOR and NPOV. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 22:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::That example would not violate NPOV or NOR. I think the example I gave of the concept would, since it would be based entirely on one scholar's historical research and perspective. The article would violate NPOV because it would be based on a single point of view: it would have to be written as &quot;X scholar said Y about concept C&quot; ad nauseam. I think to be more precise about NOR, it wouldn't necessarily violate that policy, but I think some editors would view it as license to dig into the primary sources that X used and provide their own OR version of what C is or means. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 22:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Who says the only way neutrality can be assessed is via IRS sources with SIGCOV? If multiple HQRS have passing mentions of the topic that characterize it as &quot;bad&quot;, but we have one biased SIGCOV source that characterizes it as &quot;good&quot;, I don't think it would be NPOV to base the article on the SIGCOV source. In such a case, no matter how detailed the SIGCOV, we just shouldn't have an article on the topic due to it not being possible to write both comprehensively and reflect a neutral POV. The topic can be covered in another article where more context is available and there is no need to be comprehensive. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 02:53, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::&lt;small&gt;(Though if you change your mind on not having articles that are difficult to write neutrally, [[I've Got a Little List]] of endlessly disputed articles that never would be missed. A handful in ARBPIA, rather more in GENSEX, at least two about autism...)&lt;/small&gt; [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 03:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::Your proposed change looks fine. There is no need for the source to represent a neutral point view. [[User:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#800082&quot;&gt;Hawkeye7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User_talk:Hawkeye7|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;(discuss)&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :BadlyDrawnJeff. {{tq| It is generally preferable to have multiple sources, however, one substantial source can demonstrate notability. In this case extreme care should be given to verify that the source reflects a neutral point of view and is credible.}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ANotability&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=118258330] :He was prone to arguing too many lines in parallel, and ina big tentative edit he slipped these dubious words into a footnote where no one but a wikilawyer looks. :I reckon “reflects a neutral point of view” was a reasonable stringent phrase intending to be stronger than “independent”, maybe “substantially independent” but trying to avoid repeating words. Strongly independent? It doesn’t quite flow right. :I dislike that the change further opens the crack for the GNG to be met by a single source. I think these words allow for an exception that would be allowed already, and that it is better to delete the note, which nobody but wikilawyers read anyway. [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 07:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::“provide[s] sufficient detail for a comprehensive article” is an invitation to accept non-notable topics. “Sufficient detail” is tautological. It is not useful guideance. [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 07:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == RFC: School Notability Criteria == I believe it's important to revisit the notability standards for schools on Wikipedia. There are numerous school articles, many of which are mere stubs that resemble directory listings rather than encyclopedia entries. This raises questions about whether the current notability guidelines effectively ensure that only genuinely notable schools are included. I suggest we discuss potential improvements or clarifications to these guidelines to maintain the quality and relevance of Wikipedia's content. [[User:1keyhole|1keyhole]] ([[User talk:1keyhole|talk]]) 16:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :The guideline is that they need to meet GNG or NCORP. See [[WP:NSCHOOLS]]. Some editors are of the view that all secondary schools and above are notable, and will express that view at AfD, resulting in articles being kept. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 16:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::[[WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES]] ''used'' to imply all secondary schools were kept, but that has since been changed, and editors that !vote without acknowledging the change to meet GNG or NCORP need to be reminded of that. [[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 17:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::I could never understand why &quot;or NCORP&quot; needed to be specified. Surely any topic that meets it meets the general notability guideline anyway? It doesn't do any harm by being there, but it's just redundant. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 18:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::NCORP is slightly stronger in that it limits potentially promotional sources, which might exist for for-profit schools.&lt;span id=&quot;Masem:1732543980966:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNNotability&quot; class=&quot;FTTCmt&quot;&gt; —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 14:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt; :::::That's precisely my point. If NCORP is stronger then there is no need to specify it. &quot;Meets [[WP:GNG]]&quot; is exactly the same as &quot;meets [[WP:GNG]] or [[WP:NCORP]] or both&quot;. Of course for-profit schools are different, but they only account for a small proportion of child education world-wide. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 20:32, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::NCORP would not apply to public schools, only to for profit ones. Public schools have been GNG otherwise.&lt;span id=&quot;Masem:1732567869644:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNNotability&quot; class=&quot;FTTCmt&quot;&gt; —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 20:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt; :::::::Agree. (I went a bit further than that below) &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 23:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Public/private (leaving aside the British English definition of a &quot;public school&quot;) is very different from not-for-profit/for-profit. Nearly all private schools, apart from adult training institutes, are not for profit. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 21:30, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::There's absolutely nothing we can do to compel editors to vote in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines. The only thing we ''can'' do is direct closers to close in accordance with them. [[User talk:Ravenswing|'''&lt;span style=&quot;background:#2B22AA;color:#E285FF&quot;&gt; '' Ravenswing '' &lt;/span&gt;''' ]] 22:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::What we need is for those who close AfD discussions to take absolutely zero notice of any arguments ignoring the clear notability requirements. I agree with the initial post that there are far too many very poor quality directory listings and perma stubs about schools. [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 14:08, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Agreed, though unfortunately when the same editors who try to obstruct all efforts to tighten guidelines are also among the ones most active at DRV it gets a lot harder to enforce these standards. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 00:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC) I try to go by the middle of the road community interpretation. First, NCORP can structurally taken in two ways. One is as conditions for using the SNG &quot;way in&quot;. The other would be toughening the requirements for applying GNG / the GNG &quot;way in&quot;. IMO the community applies a slightly more lenient interpretation for schools and not-for profit organizations than it does for for-profit businesses. And if it is about a single significant facility, additional consideration is given for NGEO possibilities. IMO the middle of the road interpretation for a school (that is not mostly a for-profit business) is to have some near-GNG sources (something more than just factoids and sports team results) and some real content resultant from them. I know that until we acknowledge how wp:notability actually works this does not fit neatly into any flowchart / binary decisions of the guidelines, and also would have a hard time tidying this up. But IMO until then this has been the middle-of-the-road of how the community treats it. Also, in deciding that there is no SNG &quot;easy way in&quot; the community decided that it does not want huge amounts of stubs created based on an SNG / merely for being a school. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 15:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :I find myself questioning the premise that we truly ''need'' to {{xt|effectively ensure that only genuinely notable schools are included}}. :@[[User:1keyhole|1keyhole]], I wonder if you've ever read the [[Wikipedia:Editing policy]]. It says, fairly early on, that {{xt|As a rule, the more accepted knowledge [Wikipedia] contains, the better.}} Your comment makes me think that your POV is &quot;the less knowledge, the better&quot;, which is the opposite of our long-standing policy. :With that in mind, I'd like you to explore the idea that our actual, policy-based goal is to &quot;include&quot; as much factual information about as many schools as we can. That needn't always look like a completely separate article for every school, but it also doesn't look like setting up a high bar, in which only &quot;genuinely notable&quot; schools are included and all the others – ordinary-notable schools? borderline-notable schools? merge-worthy non-notable ones? – are excluded. :Thinking about this in [[WP:WHYN]] terms, if &quot;genuine notability&quot; looks like a long article with lots of sources, you've already made a mistake. The median article has four refs in it. NB: &quot;four refs&quot;, not &quot;four WP:INDY WP:SECONDARY WP:SIRS refs with WP:SIGCOV&quot;. Just four of any kind, including non-independent primary sources and sources that don't mention the subject. The median article also has 13 sentences. If you're looking at a school article that's anywhere near that median, I suggest to you that it's not making Wikipedia &quot;worse&quot;, and you should probably leave it alone. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 23:19, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::A long standing problem of how some editors envision WP and notability is a notable topic ''must'' have a standalone article, whereas WP:N says that's only a necessary condition for a standalone. School articles, particularly public, govt-backed ones, nearly always can be associated with a geographic place like a city, town, township, or county (or equivalent), and that makes an ideal place to discuss the school system at that level, including individual schools, if the standalone article can only be backed by a few sources and have maybe two or three Para of prose, using redirects as necessary. WP has no aversion to talking about schools, just that need for the sepearate article is often not needed ( and this applies to a lot more topic areas than just schools)&lt;span id=&quot;Masem:1732580060967:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNNotability&quot; class=&quot;FTTCmt&quot;&gt; —&amp;nbsp;[[User:Masem|M&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant: small-caps&quot;&gt;asem&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 00:14, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/span&gt; ::Were you trying to leave the most condescending possible reply? @[[User:1keyhole|1keyhole]] raises the valid and obvious point that we have a lot of contentless school stubs that likely don't meet our guidelines, and your response is to recommend they &quot;follow editing policy&quot; because they &quot;seem&quot; to believe &quot;the less knowledge, the better&quot;, imply their goal isn't policy-based, bring up utterly irrelevant statistics about the abysmal median sourcing on pages in general, and then suggest they just leave crappy stubs alone if they have any kind of sourcing at all. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 00:26, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::I think this misunderstands 1keyhole point, at no point do they discuss removing information. This is about when a stand alone article should exist, information about the school could still be included in other articles. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 00:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::I think if you looked at [https://afdstats.toolforge.org/afdstats.py?name=1keyhole&amp;max=100 AFDstats] (voted to delete 92% of the time; articles actually deleted only 34% of the time, which is well below average) and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AContributions&amp;target=1keyhole&amp;namespace=4&amp;tagfilter=&amp;start=&amp;end=&amp;limit=250 their contribs], e.g., their comments in [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/McAdam High School]] or [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Simon Kenton High School]] or [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jewel and Esk College]], you might have a different perception. It sounds like they're looking for a subjective sense of importance (&quot;Why is this particular school notable?&quot;, newsworthy events don't &quot;augment the significance of these institutions&quot;, wanting editors to explain why schools &quot;merit&quot; articles). [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 02:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I see lots of editors making invalid arguments in those AfDs, I'm guessing that's why they posted here. If you believe they have a behavioural issue then I suggest this isn't the correct place to make accusations. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 11:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I am making no accusations of behavioral problems. I am instead using information that is easily found but not on this page (unlike some of the editors who replied to me?) to form an opinion about what the OP is thinking. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 18:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::The OP raised a discussion point, personal opinions about the OP don't add anything to it. -- &lt;small&gt;LCU&lt;/small&gt; '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A&lt;small&gt;ctively&lt;/small&gt;D&lt;small&gt;isinterested&lt;/small&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''&lt;/small&gt; 19:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::I believe [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not|WP:NOT]] states, &quot;However, Wikipedia is not a directory of everything in the universe that exists or has existed.&quot; This is why there aren't 700 separate entries for each individual London bus route—though I'm sure many bus enthusiasts would appreciate having that many articles dedicated to London buses. [[User:1keyhole|1keyhole]] ([[User talk:1keyhole|talk]]) 20:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::However, there are 700+ redirects to [[List of bus routes in London]]. This is what we do when we discover an article on a real but basically unsuitable subject: bus routes get redirected to the transit system, schools get redirected to the city/school district, music videos get redirected to the band, and so forth. :::The targeted article gets just enough information that future editors can see that the redirect isn't silly vandalism: &quot;Bus Route 12&quot; gets put in the list, the city gets an ==Education== section that says there are schools &quot;such as _____&quot;, the band's article gets a line that says &quot;They released their 'Stupid Banana Art' music video in 2024&quot;, and so forth. This is quick, easy, simple, and doesn't require AFD or the deletion button at all. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 21:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::It does sometimes require AfD. As has been noted in this discussion, some editors continue to flout SCHOOLOUTCOMES and insist on keeping an article, even where a merge and redirect should be uncontroversial. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 21:48, 26 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Comment'''. Honestly it has gotten so much better at AFD since the RFC overturned [[WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES]] in 2017. It was ridiculous before then. Pre-2017 if a school was brought to AFD it was closed almost immediately as keep no matter how bad the sourcing was. There are still a lot of bad school articles as a leftover of the old days, but when they are brought to AFD they are either improved with more referencing or they are deleted. It's been a long time since I have personally seen a school pass an AFD without solid referencing being produced. My impression is schools aren't getting free passes anymore. Obviously I haven't looked at every deletion discussion involving schools. Best.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 02:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::I'm an active NPP'er and would agree. But IMO the biggest change has been to reduce the mass production of these articles (rather than a shift of what happens at AFD.) IMO the defacto standard is to have sources that sort of 3/4 meet a stringent interpretation of GNG. &lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 19:24, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::I hear you, but focusing on article creation is a losing strategy. We are fundamentally an encyclopedia anyone can edit and that isn’t going to change. With that comes the creation of many poorly thought through articles, which is one reason AFD is such an active place. One could argue for stricter article creation processes but these have always failed when brought to an RFC for the barriers they place both on experienced content creators and in discouraging new editors. Not to mention the already large backload at [[WP:AFC]] review. I don’t think the current system is perfect, but I also don’t see any obvious improvements that are likely to gain traction in a community wide discussion. Best.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 19:40, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I agree 100% that the current system regarding schools is working pretty good. I think you misunderstood my point. If the criteria are reasonably good, that has effects everywhere....AFD, NPP, AFC, and whether or not editors are creating lots of articles that don't meet the (newish) criteria.&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0000cc;&quot;&gt;''North8000''&lt;/b&gt; ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 20:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Changes to WP:NMOTORSPORTS == '''INTRODUCTION:''' Hello, I would like to bring up the current state of the SNG [[WP:NMOTORSPORTS]] and how it should be changed. My original idea for the changes can be viewed [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport#Update needed for notability criteria|here]], at the WikiProject talk page; however, it did not receive much traffic and I wish to create a more formal post regarding my proposal. '''BACKGROUND:''' I'll try to summarize the situation as best as possible since most editors are not aware of this niche editing area: Within recent months, there has been a growing number of editors, pages, and work overall done to motorsports single series ([[FIA Formula 2 Championship|FIA Formula 2]], [[FIA Formula 3 Championship|FIA Formula 3]], [[Formula Regional]], and [[Formula 4]], herein referred to as feeder series). This includes myself, as this is the main area where I edit. To my interpretation, WP:NMOTORSPORTS was intended as a rough guide on who ''may'' have significant coverage, and not as a ''definitive list'' to determine who is and who is not notable in the motorsports world. However, the guideline has been misinterpreted as the latter, and WP:NMOTORSPORTS is '''frequently''' cited at AfCs and AfDs as a definitive criteria in addition to GNG. This makes thing especially frustrating for feeder series drivers' articles, since there is no specific criteria, and the current criteria is out of date. There are plenty of examples of this, but one that caught my eye specifically is [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vittorio Zoboli]] (although not a feeder series article), which shows how editors frequently misinterpret the policy (not shaming any editors, but that's what ends up happening). '''PROPOSAL:''' &lt;u&gt;AMEND:&lt;/u&gt; &quot;A top-level feeder series to Formula One or MotoGP, such as the [[GP2 Series]] or the [[Moto2]] World Championship&quot; to &quot;A top-level feeder series to Formula One or MotoGP, such as the [[FIA Formula 2 Championship|FIA Formula Two]], [[FIA Formula 3 Championship|FIA Formula 3]], [[Indy NXT]] or the [[Moto2]] World Championship&quot; &lt;u&gt;SINGLE SEATER CRTIERIA:&lt;/u&gt; &quot;10. Meet the following criteria for the the respective single seater series:&quot; * Completion of one full season ''or'' a race winner in a [[Formula Regional]] series * Completion of one full season ''or'' a race winner in [[W Series (championship)|W Series]]/[[F1 Academy]] * Podium finish in the [[Macau Grand Prix]] (single seater) * Champion or vice champion in a [[Formula 4]] series&quot; '''IMPACT:''' If the above changes were implemented, there would be a lot more continuity regarding who might and who might not qualify for an article. Obviously GNG takes precedence, but there is currently a lot of confusion regarding the gap in the guideline. It would also help out to delete/decline less notable drivers who might not deserve an article yet. '''IMPLEMENTATION/CONCLUSION:''' I'm not sure exactly how this can be implemented, as I am still new to Wikipedia guidelines and am not very good at writing proposals (if you couldn't tell). I think what I have outlined in the proposal section would be a massive improvement, and would help benefit the feeder series editing community. I would be more than happy to answer or respond to any questions or concerns, as I am aware this is a very niche topic. Thank you for reading! :) [[User:GalacticVelocity08|GalacticVelocity08]] ([[User talk:GalacticVelocity08|talk]]) 22:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :The way to fix the problem you've identified is not to expand the list, but to add something like &quot;meeting these criteria does not establish notability and you need to provide significant coverage in reliable sources to actually show that this topic is notable if notability is challenged.&quot; [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 22:16, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::That would be a possible solution to add, I agree, however; ::I'm not sure exactly when the guideline was written, but given the fact it says GP2 Series, it is likely before 2016. This section of Wikipedia would not of existed 8 years ago, as the program as a whole has expanded within the last decade. I feel that the guideline should be expanded to reflect on the real life changes to the program, especially considering how many articles there are relating to it. [[User:GalacticVelocity08|GalacticVelocity08]] ([[User talk:GalacticVelocity08|talk]]) 22:21, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::but it's been happening too much and edit wars are happening as a result of people strictly following the notability list [[User:Motorsportfan100|Motorsportfan100]] ([[User talk:Motorsportfan100|talk]]) 22:21, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SGPR_Resturant&diff=1259730556</id> <title>User talk:SGPR Resturant</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SGPR_Resturant&diff=1259730556"/> <updated>2024-11-26T19:16:13Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been indefinitely blocked from editing because your account is being used only for spam or advertising and your username is a violation of the username policy. (SUPG) <hr /> <div> == Welcome! == Hello, SGPR Resturant, and [[Help:Introduction|welcome]] to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of the pages you created, such as [[:User:SGPR Resturant]], may not conform to some of Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Core content policies|content policies]] and may not be retained. In short, the topic of an article must be [[Wikipedia:Notability|notable]] and have already been the subject of publication by [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable]] and [[Wikipedia:Independent sources|independent sources]]. Please review '''[[Help:Your first article|Your first article]]''' for an overview of the [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|article creation process]]. The '''[[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]]''' is available to help you create an article, where it will be reviewed and considered for publication. For information on how to request a new article that can be created by someone else, see '''[[Wikipedia:Requested articles|Requested articles]].''' If you are stuck, come to the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', where experienced Wikipedians can help you through the processes. New to Wikipedia? Please consider taking a look at [[Help:Introduction|our introductory tutorial]] or reviewing the [[Wikipedia:Contributing to Wikipedia|contributing to Wikipedia]] page to learn the basics about editing. Below are a few other good pages about article creation. * [[Wikipedia:Article development|Article development]] * [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout|Standard layout]] * [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section|Lead section]] * [[Wikipedia:The perfect article|The perfect article]] * [[Wikipedia:Task Center|Task Center]]{{snd}}need some ideas of what kind of things need doing? Go here. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians|Wikipedian]]! Please [[Wikipedia:Signatures|sign your name]] on talk pages using four tildes (&lt;nowiki&gt;~~~~&lt;/nowiki&gt;); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, ask me on my talk page. You can also type '''{{tl|help me}}''' on this page, followed by your question, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!&lt;!-- Template:First article --&gt;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Helpful Raccoon|Helpful Raccoon]] ([[User talk:Helpful Raccoon|talk]]) 19:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ==[[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy deletion]] nomination of [[:User:SGPR Resturant]]== [[File:Ambox warning pn.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]] A tag has been placed on your user page, [[:User:SGPR Resturant]], requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G11|section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion]], because the page appears to be advertising which only promotes or publicises someone or something. Promotional editing of any kind is not permitted, whether it be promotion of a person, company, product, group, service, belief, or anything else. This is a violation of our policies regarding acceptable use of user pages — user pages are intended for active '''editors''' of Wikipedia to communicate with one another as part of the process of creating encyclopedic content, and should not be mistaken for free [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#WEBHOST|webhosting resources]] or [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#ADVERTISING|advertising space]]. Please read [[Wikipedia:Spam|the guidelines on spam]], [[Wikipedia:User pages|the guidelines on user pages]], and, especially, our [[Wikipedia:FAQ/Organizations|FAQ for Organizations]]. If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may '''contest the nomination''' by [[:User:SGPR Resturant|visiting the page]] and clicking the button labelled &quot;Contest this speedy deletion&quot;. This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]]. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the {{Querylink|Special:Log|qs=type=delete&amp;page=User%3ASGPR+Resturant|deleting administrator}}. &lt;!-- Template:Db-spamuser-notice --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --&gt; [[User:Helpful Raccoon|Helpful Raccoon]] ([[User talk:Helpful Raccoon|talk]]) 19:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block uw-spamublock&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt; [[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=|link=]]Your account has been '''[[WP:Blocking policy#Indefinite blocks|indefinitely blocked]]''' from editing because it has been used for [[WP:Spam|advertising or promotion]], which is [[WP:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion|contrary]] to the [[WP:Five pillars|purpose of Wikipedia]]. Also, your username gives the impression that the account represents a business, organisation, group, or website, which is against the [[Wikipedia:Username policy|username policy]]. If you intend to make useful contributions instead of promoting your business or organization, you may request unblock and a username change. In your reasons, '''you must follow all these steps''': #'''Disclose''' any compensation you may receive for your contributions in accordance with the [[Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure|paid-contribution disclosure]] requirement; and #'''Convince''' us that you understand the reason for your block and that you will not repeat the kind of edits for which you were blocked; and #'''Describe''' in general terms the contributions that you intend to make if you are unblocked; and #'''Provide''' a new username. To do this, insert the text &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock-spamun|Your proposed new username|Your reason here}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; at the bottom of your talk page. Replace the text &quot;Your proposed new username&quot; with your new username and replace the text &quot;Your reason here&quot; with your reasons to be unblocked. Please note that the new username you choose cannot already be taken and in use by another account. You can [[Special:CentralAuth|search]] to see if the username you'd like to choose is available. If the search returns that no global account with that username exists, that means it is still available. '''Appeals:''' If, after reviewing the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], you believe this block was made in error, you may [[WP:Appealing a block|appeal it]] by adding the text &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; at the bottom of your talk page. Replace the text &quot;Your reason here&quot; with the reasons you believe the block was an error, and publish the page. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:16, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;[[Category:Wikipedians who are indefinitely blocked for promotional user names|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;!-- Template:Uw-spamublock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&diff=1259730354</id> <title>Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&diff=1259730354"/> <updated>2024-11-26T19:15:16Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: /* User-reported */ pblocked <hr /> <div>&lt;noinclude&gt;{{Short description|Noticeboard for persistent vandalism}}__NONEWSECTIONLINK__ &lt;!-- Adds protection template automatically if page is semi-protected, inside the noinclude, because this page is transcluded. --&gt;{{#ifeq:{{PROTECTIONLEVEL:edit}}|autoconfirmed|{{pp|1=vandalism|action=edit|small=yes|expiry=}}}}&lt;!-- {{Noticeboard protected|reason=Persistent [[WP:vandalism|vandalism]]}}--&gt;[[Category:Pages that should not be manually archived]]&lt;!-- prevent accidental archiving with OneClickArchiver --&gt; {{/Header}}&lt;!-- usually no need to manually edit the following line. Please see the talk page for more details if you wish to manually force the removal of the backlog indicator, rather than removing it. --&gt; {{noadminbacklog|bot=HBC AIV helperbot14}}&lt;!-- v2.0.29 RemoveBlocked=On MergeDuplicates=On AutoMark=On FixInstructions=On AutoBacklog=On AddLimit=4 RemoveLimit=2 --&gt; &lt;/noinclude&gt; == Reports == {{Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism/TB2}} === User-reported === &lt;!-- Please copy and paste the following to the *VERY BOTTOM* of the page to report a User or IP. * {{Vandal|Username or IP address}} brief reason for listing (keep it short) ~~~~ --&gt; *{{vandal|70.82.12.90}} &amp;ndash; vandalism after final warning. [[User:WikiOriginal-9|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;'''''~WikiOriginal-9~'''''&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:WikiOriginal-9|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]) 16:01, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:IndoWarrior_Security&diff=1259728866</id> <title>User talk:IndoWarrior Security</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:IndoWarrior_Security&diff=1259728866"/> <updated>2024-11-26T19:07:39Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been indefinitely blocked from editing because your account is being used only for spam or advertising and your username is a violation of the username policy. (SUPG) <hr /> <div> == Welcome! == Hello, IndoWarrior Security, and [[Help:Introduction|welcome]] to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of the pages you created, such as [[:User:IndoWarrior Security/sandbox]], may not conform to some of Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Core content policies|content policies]] and may not be retained. In short, the topic of an article must be [[Wikipedia:Notability|notable]] and have already been the subject of publication by [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable]] and [[Wikipedia:Independent sources|independent sources]]. Please review '''[[Help:Your first article|Your first article]]''' for an overview of the [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|article creation process]]. The '''[[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]]''' is available to help you create an article, where it will be reviewed and considered for publication. For information on how to request a new article that can be created by someone else, see '''[[Wikipedia:Requested articles|Requested articles]].''' If you are stuck, come to the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', where experienced Wikipedians can help you through the processes. New to Wikipedia? Please consider taking a look at [[Help:Introduction|our introductory tutorial]] or reviewing the [[Wikipedia:Contributing to Wikipedia|contributing to Wikipedia]] page to learn the basics about editing. Below are a few other good pages about article creation. * [[Wikipedia:Article development|Article development]] * [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout|Standard layout]] * [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section|Lead section]] * [[Wikipedia:The perfect article|The perfect article]] * [[Wikipedia:Task Center|Task Center]]{{snd}}need some ideas of what kind of things need doing? Go here. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians|Wikipedian]]! Please [[Wikipedia:Signatures|sign your name]] on talk pages using four tildes (&lt;nowiki&gt;~~~~&lt;/nowiki&gt;); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, ask me on my talk page. You can also type '''{{tl|help me}}''' on this page, followed by your question, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!&lt;!-- Template:First article --&gt;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Helpful Raccoon|Helpful Raccoon]] ([[User talk:Helpful Raccoon|talk]]) 19:07, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ==[[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy deletion]] nomination of [[:User:IndoWarrior Security/sandbox]]== [[File:Ambox warning pn.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]] A tag has been placed on your user page, [[:User:IndoWarrior Security/sandbox]], requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G11|section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion]], because the page appears to be advertising which only promotes or publicises someone or something. Promotional editing of any kind is not permitted, whether it be promotion of a person, company, product, group, service, belief, or anything else. This is a violation of our policies regarding acceptable use of user pages — user pages are intended for active '''editors''' of Wikipedia to communicate with one another as part of the process of creating encyclopedic content, and should not be mistaken for free [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#WEBHOST|webhosting resources]] or [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#ADVERTISING|advertising space]]. Please read [[Wikipedia:Spam|the guidelines on spam]], [[Wikipedia:User pages|the guidelines on user pages]], and, especially, our [[Wikipedia:FAQ/Organizations|FAQ for Organizations]]. If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may '''contest the nomination''' by [[:User:IndoWarrior Security/sandbox|visiting the page]] and clicking the button labelled &quot;Contest this speedy deletion&quot;. This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]]. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the {{Querylink|Special:Log|qs=type=delete&amp;page=User%3AIndoWarrior+Security%2Fsandbox|deleting administrator}}. &lt;!-- Template:Db-spamuser-notice --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --&gt; [[User:Helpful Raccoon|Helpful Raccoon]] ([[User talk:Helpful Raccoon|talk]]) 19:07, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block uw-spamublock&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt; [[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=|link=]]Your account has been '''[[WP:Blocking policy#Indefinite blocks|indefinitely blocked]]''' from editing because it has been used for [[WP:Spam|advertising or promotion]], which is [[WP:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion|contrary]] to the [[WP:Five pillars|purpose of Wikipedia]]. Also, your username gives the impression that the account represents a business, organisation, group, or website, which is against the [[Wikipedia:Username policy|username policy]]. If you intend to make useful contributions instead of promoting your business or organization, you may request unblock and a username change. In your reasons, '''you must follow all these steps''': #'''Disclose''' any compensation you may receive for your contributions in accordance with the [[Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure|paid-contribution disclosure]] requirement; and #'''Convince''' us that you understand the reason for your block and that you will not repeat the kind of edits for which you were blocked; and #'''Describe''' in general terms the contributions that you intend to make if you are unblocked; and #'''Provide''' a new username. To do this, insert the text &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock-spamun|Your proposed new username|Your reason here}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; at the bottom of your talk page. Replace the text &quot;Your proposed new username&quot; with your new username and replace the text &quot;Your reason here&quot; with your reasons to be unblocked. Please note that the new username you choose cannot already be taken and in use by another account. You can [[Special:CentralAuth|search]] to see if the username you'd like to choose is available. If the search returns that no global account with that username exists, that means it is still available. '''Appeals:''' If, after reviewing the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], you believe this block was made in error, you may [[WP:Appealing a block|appeal it]] by adding the text &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; at the bottom of your talk page. Replace the text &quot;Your reason here&quot; with the reasons you believe the block was an error, and publish the page. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:07, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;[[Category:Wikipedians who are indefinitely blocked for promotional user names|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;!-- Template:Uw-spamublock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:EvergreenFir&diff=1259728303</id> <title>User talk:EvergreenFir</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:EvergreenFir&diff=1259728303"/> <updated>2024-11-26T19:04:23Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: /* Proxies */ Reply <hr /> <div>{{archives|auto=yes|search=yes|}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{talk archive navigation}} |maxarchivesize = 150K |counter = 24 |minthreadsleft = 3 |minthreadstoarchive = 1 |algo = old(14d) |archive = User talk:EvergreenFir/Archive %(counter)d }} == Kid's shows == I don't even understand. I know everyone needs a hobby, but why? [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 23:20, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] maybe [[Perseveration#Associated_conditions_and_manifestations|perseveration]]? Or just a child editor. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] 23:36, 11 November 2024 (UTC) == Reminder to participate in Wikipedia research == Hello, I recently invited you to take a survey about administration on Wikipedia. If you haven’t yet had a chance, there is still time to participate– we’d truly appreciate your feedback. The survey is anonymous and should take about 10-15 minutes to complete. You may read more about the study on its [[m:Special:MyLanguage/Research:Wikipedia Administrator Recruitment, Retention, and Attrition|Meta page]] and view its [[wmf:Special:MyLanguage/Legal:Administrator Experiences 2024 Survey Privacy Statement|privacy statement]]. Take the survey '''[https://wikimediafoundation.limesurvey.net/294789?lang=en here]'''. Kind Regards, [[mw:Special:MyLanguage/Wikimedia Research|WMF Research Team]] &lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;[[User:BGerdemann (WMF)|BGerdemann (WMF)]] ([[User talk:BGerdemann (WMF)|talk]]) 00:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) &lt;/bdi&gt; &lt;!-- Message sent by User:UOzurumba (WMF)@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=UOzurumba_(WMF)/sandbox_Research_announcement_list_for_enwiki_Current_Admins_(reminders)&amp;oldid=27744339 --&gt; == Feedback request: Wikipedia policies and guidelines request for comment == [[File:Internet-group-chat.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]Your feedback is requested &amp;#32;at [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#rfc_1982343|'''Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard'''&amp;#32; on a &quot;Wikipedia policies and guidelines&quot; request for comment]]. Thank you for helping out!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;small&gt;You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of [[WP:FRS|Feedback Request Service]] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by [[WP:FRS|removing your name]].&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!-- Template:FRS notification --&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;paragraphbreak&quot; style=&quot;margin-top:0.5em&quot;&gt;&lt;/div&gt; Message delivered to you with love by [[User:Yapperbot|Yapperbot]] :) &amp;#124; Is this wrong? Contact [[User talk:Naypta|my bot operator]]. &amp;#124; Sent at 06:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == Your block of Pschaeffer == I have added an indefinite NOTHERE block for {{noping|Pschaeffer}} on top of your AE block as a standard admin action. Just wanted to drop you a note to let you know. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 12:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment == [[File:Internet-group-chat.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]Your feedback is requested &amp;#32;at [[Talk:Banaras Hindu University#rfc_54D9659|'''Talk:Banaras Hindu University'''&amp;#32; on a &quot;Politics, government, and law&quot; request for comment]]. Thank you for helping out!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;small&gt;You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of [[WP:FRS|Feedback Request Service]] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by [[WP:FRS|removing your name]].&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!-- Template:FRS notification --&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;paragraphbreak&quot; style=&quot;margin-top:0.5em&quot;&gt;&lt;/div&gt; Message delivered to you with love by [[User:Yapperbot|Yapperbot]] :) &amp;#124; Is this wrong? Contact [[User talk:Naypta|my bot operator]]. &amp;#124; Sent at 16:31, 15 November 2024 (UTC) == Feedback request: History and geography request for comment == [[File:Internet-group-chat.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]Your feedback is requested &amp;#32;at [[Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#rfc_7A6EDE0|'''Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant'''&amp;#32; on a &quot;History and geography&quot; request for comment]]. Thank you for helping out!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;small&gt;You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of [[WP:FRS|Feedback Request Service]] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by [[WP:FRS|removing your name]].&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!-- Template:FRS notification --&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;paragraphbreak&quot; style=&quot;margin-top:0.5em&quot;&gt;&lt;/div&gt; Message delivered to you with love by [[User:Yapperbot|Yapperbot]] :) &amp;#124; Is this wrong? Contact [[User talk:Naypta|my bot operator]]. &amp;#124; Sent at 18:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC) == ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message == &lt;div class=&quot;ivmbox &quot; style=&quot;margin-bottom: 1em; border: 1px solid #a2a9b1; background-color: #fdf2d5; padding: 0.5em; display: flex; align-items: center; &quot;&gt; &lt;div class=&quot;ivmbox-image noresize&quot; style=&quot;padding-left:1px; padding-right:0.5em;&quot;&gt;[[File:Scale of justice 2.svg|40px]]&lt;/div&gt; &lt;div class=&quot;ivmbox-text&quot;&gt; Hello! Voting in the '''[[WP:ACE2024|2024 Arbitration Committee elections]]''' is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on {{#time:l, j F Y|{{Arbitration Committee candidate/data|2024|end}}-1 day}}. All '''[[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2024#Election timeline|eligible users]]''' are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The [[WP:ARBCOM|Arbitration Committee]] is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration|Wikipedia arbitration process]]. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose [[WP:BAN|site bans]], [[WP:TBAN|topic bans]], editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy|arbitration policy]] describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2024 election, please review [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2024/Candidates|the candidates]] and submit your choices on the '''[[Special:SecurePoll/vote/{{Arbitration Committee candidate/data|2024|poll}}|voting page]]'''. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{tlx|NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. &lt;small&gt;[[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 00:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; &lt;/div&gt; &lt;/div&gt; &lt;!-- Message sent by User:Cyberpower678@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2024/Coordination/MM/04&amp;oldid=1258243549 --&gt; == Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment == [[File:Internet-group-chat.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]Your feedback is requested &amp;#32;at [[Talk:Berbers#rfc_0DFCE66|'''Talk:Berbers'''&amp;#32; on a &quot;All RFCs&quot; request for comment]]. Thank you for helping out!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;small&gt;You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of [[WP:FRS|Feedback Request Service]] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by [[WP:FRS|removing your name]].&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!-- Template:FRS notification --&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;paragraphbreak&quot; style=&quot;margin-top:0.5em&quot;&gt;&lt;/div&gt; Message delivered to you with love by [[User:Yapperbot|Yapperbot]] :) &amp;#124; Is this wrong? Contact [[User talk:Naypta|my bot operator]]. &amp;#124; Sent at 23:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC) == Feedback request: Media, the arts, and architecture request for comment == [[File:Internet-group-chat.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]Your feedback is requested &amp;#32;at [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#rfc_B87823D|'''Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard'''&amp;#32; on a &quot;Media, the arts, and architecture&quot; request for comment]]. Thank you for helping out!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;small&gt;You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of [[WP:FRS|Feedback Request Service]] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by [[WP:FRS|removing your name]].&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!-- Template:FRS notification --&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;paragraphbreak&quot; style=&quot;margin-top:0.5em&quot;&gt;&lt;/div&gt; Message delivered to you with love by [[User:Yapperbot|Yapperbot]] :) &amp;#124; Is this wrong? Contact [[User talk:Naypta|my bot operator]]. &amp;#124; Sent at 13:30, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Proxies == Hi, those IPs are all proxies. Long-term, hard blocks are advisable. Best, [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:HJ Mitchell|HJ Mitchell]] Ah, thanks for the info. I have a meeting in 5 minutes. You are welcome to update the blocks if you wish. Otherwise I'll try to get to them afterwards. :Is there a specific way to tell if they are proxies? [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] 18:53, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::I've upgraded the two I spotted. I didn't go looking for any others. I'm not stalking your block log, just watching AIV! ;) You can click the &quot;proxy checker&quot; link in the toolbar at the bottom of the contribs page, which opens [https://ipcheck.toolforge.org/index.php?ip=182.165.67.91 this Toolforge tool]. It can be hit and miss but it's pretty good at picking up these VPNGate IPs, though with this particular person it's safe to assume any IP they're using is an open proxy. Best, [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Teahouse&diff=1259726215</id> <title>Wikipedia:Teahouse</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Teahouse&diff=1259726215"/> <updated>2024-11-26T18:52:00Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: Reverted edit by 182.165.67.91 (talk) to last version by Therguy10 <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Community Q&amp;A hub for new editors}}{{pp-vandalism|small=yes}} {{skip to top and bottom}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{Automatic archive navigator}} |maxarchivesize = 400K |counter = 1241 |minthreadsleft = 10 |minthreadstoarchive = 45 |algo = old(48h) |archive = Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive %(counter)d }} {{clear}} {{Wikipedia:Teahouse/Header}} &lt;!-- Questions go here. Please post new questions at the BOTTOM of the page. --&gt; == How to edit page and add citations? == I’ve been trying to add new information on the Wikipedia article regarding Illinois’s Protect Illinois Communities Act, though I don’t know how to edit via the simple and direct way (without the brackets and other characters used for Wikipedia functions). If someone could help me out with adding this information or do it for me, that would be great. [[User:LordOfWalruses|LordOfWalruses]] ([[User talk:LordOfWalruses|talk]]) 01:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :If you {{querylink|qs=title=Protect_Illinois_Communities_Act&amp;veaction=edit|2=use VisualEditor on the Protect Illinois Communities Act article}}, does that allow [[User:LordOfWalruses|you]] to edit it? [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 01:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::That helped with adding the information, though I don’t know how to cite the source. ::(This is the source in case you’re wondering: https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/chicago/news/illinois-assault-weapons-ban-ruled-unconstitutional/ ) [[User:LordOfWalruses|LordOfWalruses]] ([[User talk:LordOfWalruses|talk]]) 03:08, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::Hello, {{u|LordOfWalruses}}. If you want to contribute to Wikipedia, then you need to learn how to create references to reliable sources. It is not that difficult. Please read and study [[WP:REFBEGIN|Referencing for beginners]], and if you have any ''specific'' questions, ask then here at the Teahouse. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 03:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Sure thing; I apologize for any inconvenience or confusion I caused amongst other users. If you could send that link to my talk page so that I can always know how to access it (even when this conversation is removed), that would be great. [[User:LordOfWalruses|LordOfWalruses]] ([[User talk:LordOfWalruses|talk]]) 05:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Sent. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 09:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::: {{Ping|LordOfWalruses}} Please don't apologise. This page exists ''specifically'' for new editors to ask questions like yours. Ask as many as you like. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:40, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::@[[User:LordOfWalruses|LordOfWalruses]], if it helps, you can put links to any handy Wikipedia things you want to be able to find easily on your user page. You can access your user page by clicking on your name either at the end of comments or on the top right of your screen. Your user page link is currently red, which means the page doesn't exist yet, so you'll start off by simply creating the page and adding whatever you like. Mine is full of links I find useful; you're welcome to investigate and use 'edit source' to see the Wikipedia coding I used. That should help you understand how all the linking shenanigans work! Feel free to post on my talk page if you have any questions about how I set it up. Welcome and happy editing! [[User:StartGrammarTime|StartGrammarTime]] ([[User talk:StartGrammarTime|talk]]) 21:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Dear StratGrammarTime, I would like to ask you for help. I use the icon in the upper left corner of the page to link information and quotes from external websites. For example, I am currently trying to create a page about the academic painter [[Stano Bubán]] ::::::Editors keep pointing out to me that I am using the wrong way of linking. I have asked several times in various discussion places to send me a link to generate the correct templates. So far, no one has sent me such a link. My question is: Is there a template generator to link to external websites? I assume that there certainly is one. Please, could you send me a link to generate the correct templates? Thank you. Have a nice day. [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 00:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Hi! Do you use the [[File:MediaWiki 2024-11-26 14-10-19.png|frameless|none]] symbol to cite? Are you using automatic or just using [[Wikipedia:Bare URLs|A bare URL?]] [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 14:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Redirects and Sources == A while ago I was looking at the page for [[Xylocopa aerata]] when I noticed one of the plants it is described feeding at, [[Pultenaea elliptica]], was at the time a redlink. Thinking it would be an interesting project as my first real page, I did some research and discovered it is actually the previous name for [[Pultenaea tuberculata]]. I've already made Pultenaea elliptica a redirect to the correct page. I know this is probably a stupid question, but do I change the link in Xylocopa aerata from the redirect to the correct name, even though that was probably the name used in the source? [[User:PineappleWizard123|PineappleWizard123]] ([[User talk:PineappleWizard123|talk]]) 03:42, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, {{u|PineappleWizard123}}. In my opinion, the best solution is to display the name used in the cited source. If that name redirects to a more current name for the same species, there is nothing wrong with that. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 04:24, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:PineappleWizard123|PineappleWizard123]] An alternative if you didn't want to create the redirect would have been to use a [[WP:PIPED|piped link]]. The syntax &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[[Pultenaea tuberculata|Pultenaea elliptica]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; would give a blue-link direct to the correct article but would appear to the reader in the old name. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|PineappleWizard123}} [[WT:WikiProject Plants]] would be a good place to get subject-specialist advice. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|PineappleWizard123}} I can't seem to find any mention that that ''X. aerata'' feeds on any ''Pultenaea'' species online, as only Wikipedia mirrors report that. I would recommend just changing it to [[Pultenaea tuberculata]] (since the old name is from the 19th century and obsolete) and adding a {{cn}} (&lt;nowiki&gt;{{CN}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) tag to the statement, or locating a source(s), which I can't seem to find. [[User:Memer15151|&lt;span style=&quot;color: darkred&quot;&gt;User&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color: darkgreen&quot;&gt;Memer&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:Memer15151|&lt;span style=&quot;color: maroon&quot;&gt;chat&lt;/span&gt;]]) [[Special:Contributions/Memer15151|&lt;span style=&quot;color: darkgreen&quot;&gt;Tribs&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:42, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Something I think deserves a page. . . == There's a fantastic little game called ''Smile For Me'', developed by ''LimboLane''. I bet you're wondering &quot;Hey, if you want this to have a page so badly, why not do it yourself!?&quot; I gladly would, but I am severely inexperienced. As you may not know, I have only been on Wikipedia as an editor for less than a week. I just wanted to bring this fantastic little game to light and hope some people agree with me. Thanks, Wikipedians! [[User:Shovel Shenanigans|Shovel Shenanigans]] ([[User talk:Shovel Shenanigans|talk]]) 19:11, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :I had a similar situation with the game Redout 2. If there aren't any major publications like IGN or Kotaku running multiple articles on it, then any article made about your game will get nuked when it's checked for notability. [[User:ApteryxRainWing|ApteryxRainWing]] | [[User talk:ApteryxRainWing|Roar at me]] | [[Special:contribs/User:ApteryxRainWing|My contributions]] 19:14, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::Looking at the search results, there are articles about it on both of those sites, as well as Metacritic. So there's hope! [[User:Shovel Shenanigans|Shovel Shenanigans]] ([[User talk:Shovel Shenanigans|talk]]) 21:48, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::I have no experience with using this tool myself, but you can check out [[WP:AfC]] and see if they have any resources to help you develop this article. Don't be afraid to contribute, people are very willing to help! [[User:GracenC|/home/gracen/]] (yell at me [[User talk:GracenC|here]]) 20:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::That definitely helps. I'll probably get around to it eventually when I have more experience :) [[User:Shovel Shenanigans|Shovel Shenanigans]] ([[User talk:Shovel Shenanigans|talk]]) 21:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:GracenC|GracenC]], I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;tool&quot;? AfC isn't a tool, it's a process that editors who cannot create articles in mainspace can use to create articles. Experienced editors review the articles and accept or decline them based on whether they meet some basic standards, like [[WP:N]]. I wouldn't suggest that anyone use AfC if they don't have to - if you create an unsuitable article in mainspace, the patrollers from [[WP:NPP]] will notice it and give you suggestions or move it to draft space. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 03:16, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Apologies, that was poor word choice on my part. Also, thanks for the information; I was under the impression it was recommended for ''all'' new editors to go through AfC rather than just publishing to mainspace. [[User:GracenC|/home/gracen/]] (yell at me [[User talk:GracenC|here]]) 03:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Personally, as an AfC reviewer I wouldn't recommend it. If you submit to AfC, you have to wait until a reviewer sees and accepts your article for it to get to mainspace. Sometimes that can be a long wait. Meanwhile, if you create directly in mainspace and your article wouldn't pass AfC, NPP will draftify it (so, you'll end up in the AfC queue in the end anyway), and if it would pass, they'll mark it as patrolled, maybe with some maintenance tags, and you won't have had to wait in the AfC queue. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 03:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I have to disagree with asilvering. I also review AFC articles. And even though I am an experienced editor, I have submitted an article or two to AFC just to get a reviewer's eyes on it to gain suggestions for improvement. NPP is overwhelmed, they do not catch every problem, and a lot of junk that should never have been in main space ends up staying there. ::::::[[WP:DEADLINE|There are no deadlines on Wikipedia]] for stuff like this. If I have to wait 3 months for a draft to be reviewed, so be it, I don't care, I am in no hurry to get my articles published. ::::::Yes, it is recommended for new editors to go through AFC. Bypassing AFC potentially creates needless work for others to clean up after you, if what you created in main space isn't actually ready for publication there. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 04:14, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::@[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]], you're autopatrolled. NPP will miss ''all'' of your articles, because they aren't looking at them. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 04:16, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I wasn't referring to my own articles in the context of NPP. Looking at what I wrote, I can see how it would come across that way. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 05:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} If the above exchange confuses any new Wikipedians: I think it shows an acceptable difference in opinion. If anyone wants yet another, I would've suggested going to [[WP:VG|the Video games WikiProject]], showing them [[WP:three|three]] sources, and asking if the subject seems to satisfy criteria for a standalone article (what Wikipedia calls &quot;[[WP:notability|notability]]&quot;). Especially with the changing landscape of gaming journalism (the and video game industry in general), what sources are [[WP:VG/RS|reliable or not]] may not be obvious. If the answer is &quot;not notable&quot;, then it [[WP:AKON|saves you the effort]] of writing a draft (per Anachronist) or an article (per asilvering). [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 14:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :This definitely clears up the issue for me. All input is greatly appreciated, but thank you for dusting it off! [[User:Shovel Shenanigans|Shovel Shenanigans]] ([[User talk:Shovel Shenanigans|talk]]) 17:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == MA dissertation == Hi, is an MA dissertation with a professor advisor a reliable source ? One is being referenced at [[Nosso Senhor dos Passos Chapel]], regards [[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]] ([[User talk:Atlantic306|talk]]) 20:42, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi @[[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]], usually no. We require the sources to be ''published'', and MA dissertations are rarely published. Doctorate dissertations ''are'' sometimes published, but should be used with care. More info at [[WP:DISSERTATION]]. &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;qcne&lt;/span&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :: Thanks for that advice, i'll ask the article editor to find a replacement reference, regards [[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]] ([[User talk:Atlantic306|talk]]) 21:04, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{U|Qcne}}, I'm not sure I've got the same working definition of {{tqq|published}}. This source may never have been printed off after being added to the university's records, but it is clearly ''publically accessible'', and even has an {{HDL|10183/202436}} and declared licensing (CC-BY-NC-SA). We had a convo about the acceptability of MA dissertations recently at {{slink|Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 58|Allowing Master's theses when not used to dispute more reliable sources}} (May 2024), which I'll not attempt to summarise since I participated. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 11:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Thanks @[[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] - that's really interesting and I guess my knowledge was out of date. &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;qcne&lt;/span&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 14:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Rule of thumb: [[WP:DISSERTATION|no]]. Real answer: [[WP:TIERS|it depends]]. For uncontroversial claims, no reason not to allow it. [[User:Closed Limelike Curves|– Closed Limelike Curves]] ([[User talk:Closed Limelike Curves|talk]]) 22:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Page of painter Stano Bubán == Dear editors, I would like to ask some questions about page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stano_Bub%C3%A1n. How I can generate links to external sources on the Internet in this way?: &lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=THE WALKER |url=https://danubiana.sk/en/vystavy/chodec |access-date=2024-11-21 |website=Danubiana}}&lt;/ref&gt; I use the technique of linking to external sources using the icon on the page bar. Please, could you send me a link to generate a link using your technique? I would also like to ask, why the bar still appears on the page: &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Unreferenced section|date=November 2024}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;? When I added additional external sources confirming my published information. Many links to the cited opening of exhibitions, that Stano Bubán participated in as an exhibitor, are not on the Internet, so I cannot document all. But I used information about exhibitions from public sources. For example, from the source of the Academy of Fine Arts, Bratislava, Slovakia. This source is official. The website of the Academy of Fine Arts contains only verified information. Similarly, the cited study stays do not have Internet links, so they cannot be documented, but Stano Bubán, as a university teacher, had to document all the information I provided on his Webside page and the page of the Academy of Fine Arts, Bratislava, Slovakia. I gathered information about his family from communication with him. Such information about his family (name of mother, sisters, daughters etc. is not available on the internet. Thank you very much for your help....... [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 09:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :I suppressed the coding displaying the maintenance tag, as placing it here tags this page. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|Jozef Heriban}} If information is not in a published [[WP:RS|reliable source]] that can be [[WP:V|verified]], it cannot be on Wikipedia. :Since you are in communication with the subject regarding the article about him, you should declare a [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]]. Articles are typically written without any involvement from, or even the knowledge of, the subject. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:40, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thanks for your answer. But I still don't understand, why the bar &quot;This section does not cite any sources&quot; keeps appearing in the sections Selected exhibitions, Study stays, Awards... I added credible links to realized exhibitions and links to clearly credible sources. Please, can you advise me, what else I should do to remove those bars? ::Regarding information about the family. There are many pages on Wikipedia, mainly of actors, directors, designers, artists, which contain information about their family members. I have not noticed anywhere that this information is questioned and is also not supported by external sources. Please, can you explain me, why this information is questioned in my case? Thank you. Greetings... [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 09:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Jozef Heriban}} It's being questioned because it was pointed out to us. As this is a volunteer project where people do what they can when they can, we can only address what we know about. It is possible for inappropriate content to get by us, even for years. Inappropriate content existing on one article does not mean that it can exist on another(see [[WP:OSE|other stuff exists]]). If you know of other articles with improperly sourced information, please point those out so we can take action. We need the help. :::You added some sources, but many are still unsourced. I'm actually skeptical the article should list his entire work history at all- but if its going to, it needs to be sourced. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 10:12, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::Hello, @[[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]]: to reply to your specific question: tags such as {{tl|unsourced section}} are not automatic: they are applied by an editor, and removed by an editor. Since those sections now have some citations, I have replaced {{tl|unsourced section}} with {{tl|more citations needed section}}. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 10:26, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Dear ColinFine, I would like to ask you for help. I use the icon in the upper left corner of the page to link information and quotes from external websites. For example, I am currently trying to create a page about the academic painter [[Stano Bubán]] ::::Your colleagues keep pointing out to me that I am using the wrong way of linking. I have asked several times in various places intended for discussion of your colleagues to send me a link to generate the correct templates. So far, no one has sent me such a link. My question is: Is there a template generator that I can use when creating pages on Wikipedia to link to external websites? I assume that there certainly is one. Please, could you send me a link to generate the correct templates? Thank you. Have a nice evening. [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 23:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::@[[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] You seem to be using the {{tl|cite web}} template correctly judging by the example you used. There is a really useful tool called citer at [https://citer.toolforge.org/ this toolforge link]. It can take URL or various other inputs and generate a pretty good citation to use as a footnote in an article. Sometimes you need to tweak the output a bit but it speeds things up. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Dear Michael, thank you very much for your support. I struggled a lot until I managed to get a link to generate templates. So I'm posting the link here, so that others don't have to read the criticism on their pages about how they can't link to external sources correctly. Template generator link: https://citer.toolforge.org/ [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 19:13, 24 November 2024 (UTC) {{reflist-talk}} == Re-submitting an Article == Hi guys, I recently submitted an article on the &quot;Worldview International Foundation&quot; which got rejected due to lack of quality references. I have adjusted the article according to my knowledge. I was thinking of resubmitting the article but I am not sure if it will be completely scrapped if it gets rejected again. I was wondering if another senior editor can see that and let me know if anything is wrong. Or whether I should simply re-submit and wait for evaluation? Thanks in advance! [[User:EditorSenpai|EditorSenpai]] ([[User talk:EditorSenpai|talk]]) 09:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :The best way to get feedback is to resubmit the draft. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you! I appreciate the comment. I think I will submit the draft and see. [[User:EditorSenpai|EditorSenpai]] ([[User talk:EditorSenpai|talk]]) 20:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :The only secondary source I see giving significant coverage of the subject is &quot;Global Issues&quot;, which is clearly not reliable. Other sources do not mention the subject or do so briefly. &lt;span style=&quot;border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F&quot;&gt;[[User:Remsense|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;'''Remsense'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;‥&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;[[User talk:Remsense|&lt;span lang=&quot;zh&quot; style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;'''论'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::FYI - [[Draft:Worldview International Foundation]] was Declined, which is less severe than Rejected. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 15:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yes and I have adjusted accordingly. :::I have decided to resubmit the article again and see whether it has merit or further issues to fix. :::It is the first article I am writing on Wikipedia and I really appreciate all the help and guidance! [[User:EditorSenpai|EditorSenpai]] ([[User talk:EditorSenpai|talk]]) 21:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you for your feedback! ::I do have a genuine concern as the article I am working on is about is a well-established NGO that is working towards mangrove restoration but has rarely been studied within scholarly articles. ::Please let me know if there are any specific recommendations you would suggest for me to overcome this issue. [[User:EditorSenpai|EditorSenpai]] ([[User talk:EditorSenpai|talk]]) 21:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Content deliverer/s == When a source's URL is an article at JSTOR uploaded to the Internet Archive should &quot;[[JSTOR]] via the [[Internet Archive]]&quot; be in the Content deliverer field (leading to &quot;via [[JSTOR]] via the [[Internet Archive]]&quot; in the citation) or would it be better only to enter [[Internet Archive]] in the field and mention [[JSTOR]] in a postscript note? [[User:Mcljlm|Mcljlm]] ([[User talk:Mcljlm|talk]]) 11:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello Mcljlm. Just mentioning the Internet Archive should be fine. [[User:TheWikipede|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family: monospace; color: blue; text-shadow: 0px 0px 10px lightblue;&quot;&gt;TheWikipede&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:TheWikipede|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family: monospace; color: blue;&quot;&gt;''talk''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Reverting a long-time user's revision == Hello, and sorry for taking up your time! I haven't been in Wikipedia for long and my revisions had only been somewhat minor (mostly fixing grammars and deleting words that are inaccurate to the sources). I found that the [[Majapahit]] article which I had been watching was edited in a way that I believe is mostly damaging by a long-time user. I reverted their revisions but they reverted it back. How should I respond to this? The safest way that I can think of is to edit the current article to be more similar to the previous version, but that will include most things except the infobox. Should I just revert everything again, especially considering that I'm new? And is there a way to prevent said user (and others) from changing the article in a similar manner? Thank you. [[User:Miserableed|Miserableed]] ([[User talk:Miserableed|talk]]) 13:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :I'd recommend reading (or at least skimming) [[WP:EDITWAR]] before deciding to get into a conflict with a more experienced editor. I'd also recommend asking them why they chose to revert your edits by either starting a new topic on their user talk page, or by mentioning them on the article's talk page (you can do this by linking to their user page). As more general advice (not saying you did this here), don't take it as an attack when someone reverts your edits. It's just them saying that they disagree, and you can always try to convince them otherwise (see [[WP:GOODFAITH]]). [[User:GracenC|/home/gracen/]] (yell at me [[User talk:GracenC|here]]) 20:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Miserableed}} Further to the correct answer above, the process to follow is described at [[WP:DR]]. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Reliable references == Hi, My article was rejected due to a lack of reliable references. As my topic is somewhat obscure (a sculpture), the references are equally obscure but I tried hard to find real references. Any thoughts? [[Draft:Chrinitoid]]. [[User:Tompayne36|Tompayne36]] ([[User talk:Tompayne36|talk]]) 15:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :It's not so much that the references are obscure as much as the references are all closely connected to RIP or Rickey themselves. It seems appropriate where it is in Rickey's article, but I think I'd have to agree that the sourcing isn't sufficient to show the sculpture should have an article of its own. I wonder if you'd find more extensive, independent coverage from the Troy Record or another paper in the Capital District. [[User:CoffeeCrumbs|CoffeeCrumbs]] ([[User talk:CoffeeCrumbs|talk]]) 16:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Tompayne36}} For a subject like that you might need to refer to contemporary newspaper sources. When you have been here a while longer, you can use [[WP:LIBRARY]] to access some archives that are otherwise paywalled. Perhaps the university had its own publication, or a student paper? You could contact them directly. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::@pigsonthewing Hi. I referenced the RPI Alumni Magazine. It was an article I wrote, but they did publish it. There was also a reference in the campus humor magazine and the unofficial “Not the Rensselaer Handbook” [[User:Tompayne36|Tompayne36]] ([[User talk:Tompayne36|talk]]) 21:13, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::It was also referenced in the student newspaper (The Polytechnic)https://www.tumblr.com/witnessmoderations/85215827917/in-search-of-the-chrinitoid [[User:Tompayne36|Tompayne36]] ([[User talk:Tompayne36|talk]]) 21:18, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Fan Zhibo == [[:ru:Jibo]] Hello. Please help me create a Wikipedia page for Fan Zhibo in English. [[User:TanyaGroot|TanyaGroot]] ([[User talk:TanyaGroot|talk]]) 15:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:TanyaGroot|TanyaGroot]], and welcome to the Teahouse. The Teahouse is not really a place to look for collaborators. Have you read [[WP:Translation|Translation]]? [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 20:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Fonts and citations == # first, is there a settings thing to change the font into something [[Sans-serif#Geometric|Geometric]]? because it's easier to read then Arial for me # is there a way to hide citations? it was annoying when I first started Wikipedia, I never use them, and it's just annoying when copy-pasting or printing [[User:Saarabout|Saarabout]] ([[User talk:Saarabout|talk]]) 22:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :To answer your first question, I believe that Wikipedia uses the default font that your browser does, so you can just change it there. I don't know about the second question, though. [[User:GracenC|/home/gracen/]] (yell at me [[User talk:GracenC|here]]) 00:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello [[User:Saarabout|Saarabout]], there is a pretty straightforward way to remove the footnotes from copied text. Do you use a text editor with [[regular expression]]s? If so, you can replace &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;\[\d*\]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; with nothing and it will scrub the footnotes from the article. I do this sometimes to use spelling/grammar checkers. There are some online tools that you can use for this as well.[https://coding.tools/regex-replace][https://regex101.com/r/kUW4Ug/1] This is an [https://rextester.com/replace/UXKAM97759 example using a random paragraph] from ''[[Night of the Living Dead]]''. :Hiding the footnotes across the site is more awkward. There isn't a straightforward way to do it, both because most editors would not want to hide the citations and because not all footnotes are made the same way. To hide nearly all footnotes go to [[Special:MyPage/common.css]], create the page, copy just this line &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;sup.reference {display:none;}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; and save the page. To turn the footnotes back on, go to [[Special:MyPage/common.css]], click edit, and delete or comment out that line. I realize that's a weird solution, [[User:Rjjiii|&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps;&quot;&gt;Rjj&lt;sup&gt;iii&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:Rjjiii|talk]]) 02:42, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Unsure as to whether article is actually been submitted for review. == I’ve completed a draft, and seemingly published it, but i can’t find it in the list of articles submitted for review. Have i submitted correctly? [[Draft:Kieran Howe]] [[User:MyNameIsGeorgeHale|MyNameIsGeorgeHale]] ([[User talk:MyNameIsGeorgeHale|talk]]) 01:11, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Yes, you successfully submitted it. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 01:25, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::And it has been declined, reasons given by the reviewer and Comments. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 23:28, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Submitting a bio == I need to get a bio of my pastor on Wikipedia, but I don't really have a way to footnote anything. He has books with bios on the back cover and he has an outdated bio on his own website. I made a simple bio on Wikimedia Commons site for Dr. Larry Ollison, and that's about all I really need on Wikipedia. I need it because on the streaming site for LarryOllisonRadio.com, when you click on Larry's name, the software searches for that name on Wikipedia. Right now it finds Barry White who has a son, with the name Ollison. Can anyone here help me create this bio on the main site? Jim McDermott [[User:Jimmcdcmm|Jimmcdcmm]] ([[User talk:Jimmcdcmm|talk]]) 01:47, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :I'm afraid &quot;I need it&quot; is not a real reason for anyone to create an article. What is needed is evidence of [[WP:N|notability]] via [[WP:SIGCOV|significant coverage]] from [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::Follow up question: would this website be a reliable source? https://www.faithandflame.com/collections/harrison-house-books/products/hidden-mysteries-and-the-bible-secrets-revealed-aliens-ufos-giants-time-travel-multiverse-ai-other-unexplained-phenomena-paperback-october-1-2024. There are quotes there by other authors about Dr. Ollison and a picture of his book with a bio on the book. [[User:Jimmcdcmm|Jimmcdcmm]] ([[User talk:Jimmcdcmm|talk]]) 03:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::A &quot;buy it here&quot; page? No. An article about a person needs to cite sources that provide in-depth coverage ''about'' that person. See [[Wikipedia:Golden Rule]] for the kinds of sources required. That one you cited doesn't meet the criteria, because none of the information there is independent of the author or the book, and none of it constitutes &quot;coverage&quot;. Even if all you could find were book reviews, that suggests that the book may be notable, but not the author. :::Also, what you're asking is basically to use Wikipedia as a publicity platform (or a way to fix technical problems you are having with publicity that isn't a problem for Wikipedia), and that sort of purpose is prohibited. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 04:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Jimmcdcmm}} If your pastor is pressuring you to do this, you can refer him to [[WP:BOSS]]. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :If the image is free, then it can exist on commons and does not need to be on enwiki also. If it is non-free, it is forbidden to be on commons and also does not seem to satisfy the limited cases where non-free content is allowed on enwiki. The licensing and origin really needs to be clarified, and usually only the photographer (or someone else specified by a contract the photographer has) can make a valid license release. Please see [[Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials]] for information about how to figure out who owns the license and how they can release it for use. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 01:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Hasn't been said, but Teahouse Hosts are here to advise, not to co-author. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 20:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Doubt == Hello, could someone please tell me that if there is a politician with name &quot;example politician&quot; and his page is already available but there is one more politician from another constituency who has been elected and his name is also &quot;example politician&quot; than what to do? [[User:AstuteFlicker|AstuteFlicker]] ([[User talk:AstuteFlicker|talk]]) 01:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :I'm assuming this is not meant to be taken literally and you mean there might be a &quot;John Smith&quot; elected in Florida and another in England, or whatever? [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation]] would be the answer. If there are just two notable persons by the same name we would usually add qualifiers to the page titles and [[WP:HATNOTE|HATNOTE]]s at the top of both pages. If there are several we would create a disambiguation page listing them all. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:12, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::I far as I know there are just two people because one already had a page the second one has recently been elected. If you don't mind once I create the page I'll let you know and if you could just see that part it would be very helpful for me because I don't have much idea of it. But for that first, I need to have a title for it because both the titles are same and the page cannot be created because it already has a article with that name '''what should the name be given'''? [[User:AstuteFlicker|AstuteFlicker]] ([[User talk:AstuteFlicker|talk]]) 02:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::For the second article, it can simply be &quot;John Smith (another constituency)&quot;. And for the first article that is already existing, if it has been the only article with that title, we can apply a hatnote to direct readers to the new article for a start per [[WP:TWODAB]]. Why not create the article first and let us help you evaluate which title the article(s) should reside at? [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 03:05, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@{{u|Robertsky}} I have created [[Ashok Kumar Singh (Ramgarh)]] there is one more page named [[Ashok Kumar Singh]] please do the needful. Also, is the name fine? If not, please feel free to move it.. [[User:AstuteFlicker|AstuteFlicker]] ([[User talk:AstuteFlicker|talk]]) 05:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::[[Ashok Kumar Singh]] is now a disambiguation page that links to both articles. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 05:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{u|AstuteFlicker}}, the article title seems to be fine but the article itself tells us nothing about this person other than their name, the legislative office they hold, and their political party affiliation. The article is more like a directory or database listing than an encyclopedia article. When and where was he born? What is his educational background? Where did he work before becoming a politician? What are his unique political positions and legislative plans? Was his electoral victory tough or easy? Does he have other leadership roles in his community or his political party? Is he married? Does he have children? And so on. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 05:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::@[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] Thank you very much for your valuable attention to this article. The articles which I am creating right know are all stubs about the MLAs who had been elected very recently. The elected MLAs are mostly new and that is the reason why, much information about them ain't available right know. With time, when more sources about them will be published I will make sure to add or update it. Meanwhile, the other editors can also contribute to it if they wish to. [[User:AstuteFlicker|AstuteFlicker]] ([[User talk:AstuteFlicker|talk]]) 05:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::{{u|AstuteFlicker}}, nothing that you have done is contrary to policy but I happen to believe quite firmly that it is a far greater service to the encyclopedia to create five well-referenced, informative start class articles than 50 microstubs. People can easily consult legislative directories to get this basic database information. Encyclopedia articles should be much more informative. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 05:57, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::@[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] unfortunately, this is a by-product of the [[WP:NPOL]]. One can only hope that the article will expand correspondingly when more details about the elected politician are released. [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 14:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Thanks @[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] for following up on this. [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 14:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Article Edit Assist == Hey there! I created an article on Imagine Dragons song, Take Me To The Beach. It’s my first article, so I’d appreciate some feedback/editing if that’s ok? [[Draft:Take Me To The Beach (Imagine Dragons song)]] [[User:ImagineDragonsFan101|ImagineDragonsFan101]] ([[User talk:ImagineDragonsFan101|talk]]) 01:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Your draft is almopst certainly going to be declined for lacking [[WP:RS|relaible sources]] that include [[WP:SIGCOV|significant coverage]] of the song. YouTube is not a reliable source. Apple Music is not a reliable source. And so on. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:07, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Local wiki upload == I am trying to upload an image (the first one on the left of the page) from https://www.gpchicago.com/architecture/paramount/ under [[Wikipedia:Non-free content|fair use]] to use in [[Paramount Tower (Nashville)]]. Wikimedia Commons says [[Commons:Fair use|fair use images should be uploaded to a local wiki]] (which should be English Wikipedia?) I believe the image fits all criteria and there are no free replacements as it is a render of a building that has only just started construction. So how do I upload it to English Wikipedia specifically? [[User:King airaglub|King airaglub]] ([[User talk:King airaglub|talk]]) 03:14, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, {{u|King airaglub}}. That image appears to be a copyrighted [[architectural rendering]] of a future building. The opportunity for a free replacement is obvious: wait until construction is complete and take a photo of the actual building. Or even take and freely license a photo of the half completed building under construction or the jobsite consisting of a hole in the ground with earth moving equipment around it. I fail to see how non-free use of this copyrighted rendering image complies with the relevant policy language at [[WP:NFCI|Non-free content - images]]. We do not need to be in a rush to have an image of this building. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 04:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::To me that is not a good solution. For one, there are many other articles of proposed buildings that have renderings shown under fair use in the same manner as what I am trying to do, such as [[4/C]], [[Legends Tower]], and [[One Bayfront Plaza]]. Besides, a picture of an empty construction hole would not add encyclopedic value. [[User:King airaglub|King airaglub]] ([[User talk:King airaglub|talk]]) 14:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == I would like to open a page with information about myself and my career, can anyone help? == I would like to open a page with information about myself and my career, can anyone help? [[User:Dragan Mihailovic|Dragan Mihailovic]] ([[User talk:Dragan Mihailovic|talk]]) 05:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, {{u|Dragan Mihailovic}}. I have got to tell you that this is almost certainly a really bad idea that leads to failure and time wasting and bad feelings about 99.9% of the time. Read [[WP:AUTOBIOGRAPHY]] for a much more detailed explanation. Your time would be better spent telling the world about you on various social media platforms rather than in an encyclopedia. Self promotion is forbidden on Wikipedia but welcomed and encouraged elsewhere. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 05:44, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::thank you @[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]], very kind of you!! [[User:Dragan Mihailovic|Dragan Mihailovic]] ([[User talk:Dragan Mihailovic|talk]]) 06:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == wikipidia search == what is the difference between &quot;disambiguation&quot; and &quot;topics refered to by the same term&quot;? [[User:YisroelB501|YisroelB501]] ([[User talk:YisroelB501|talk]]) 07:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC) : {{u|YisroelB501}} Can you please supply a link to the page with the text that is confusing you, so we can see the context of your question? [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 08:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ping|YisroelB501}} Do you refer to search suggestions like below while you are typing in the search box? &lt;pre&gt;Titanic (disambiguation) Topics referred to by the same term &lt;/pre&gt; :The first line gives the full page name &quot;[[Titanic (disambiguation)]]&quot;. The second line gives a [[Wikipedia:Short description]] of the page. For disambiguation pages the short description &quot;Topics referred to by the same term&quot; is automatically added by {{tl|Disambiguation}}. It's possible to override it but we rarely do that. Short descriptions are shown together with the page name so there is no need to repeat &quot;Titanic&quot;. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 10:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :If there is no [[WP:PTOPIC|primary topic]] then a disambiguation page doesn't get &quot;(disambiguation)&quot; in the page name but still gets the short description &quot;Topics referred to by the same term&quot;, e.g. [[Stay]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 10:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == When will the newly created page be searchable on Google? == On Wednesday, I created a page for academic painter Stano Bubán on the English Wikipedia [[Stano Bubán]]. I want to ask when this page will be searchable via Google? It can be searched on Wikipedia, but it is not searchable via Google yet. Thank you for your answer. [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 08:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Your article will be patrolled first and after review, it takes about a week before your article is ranked on goggle [[User:Tesleemah|Tesleemah]] ([[User talk:Tesleemah|talk]]) 08:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::I'm fairly sure it can sometimes take more than a week. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] If the [[WP:NPP|new page patrol]] don't get to it, and they are heavily backlogged, it will become indexable by search engines after 90 days. I find that, once patrolled, indexing happens very quickly, especially if anyone adds an edit. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 15:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Dear Turnbull, thank you very much for your reply... have a nice day... [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 15:51, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::Dear Tesleemah, thank you very much for your reply... have a nice day... [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 15:52, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::The article [[Stano Bubán]] looks like it is in good condition, but there are two problems. 1. there are no links to it from anywhere else on the website, and 2. it does not seem clear that you own the copyright to the photos of him, particularly his first photo that looks like it was professionally done and the painting he did at the end of the page. [[User:Reconrabbit|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6BAD2D&quot;&gt;Recon&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Reconrabbit|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#2F3833&quot;&gt;rabbit&lt;/span&gt;]] 16:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC) *{{re|Jozef Heriban}} Hi. Google, and Wikipedia are two different websites. An article becomes eligible for being indexed by Google (or any other search engines) after it is &quot;reviewed&quot; here. The time taken to be indexed after the review, is totally up to that particular search engine. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 17:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == About an Edit by the User == States in India do not have flags or banners, they have their emblems or seals, most containing the Emblem of India. In the Page of [[Government of Punjab, India]], Due to no evidence, I deleted the image claiming to be the banner of the State Government. I 've never seen it in use in any of the Offices, Website, Notifications, Events, Buildings of the Government (I've been to many). The user is the uploader of the said file, he was the one who first added it, and he did the same again. What should be done? [[User:VeritasVanguard|VeritasVanguard]] ''&quot;Seeking truth in every edit&quot;'' 14:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi! I suggest starting a discussion with the user on the article's talk page to see if they can provide a reliable source that explicitly supports the claim that the image in question is the state's banner. See [[WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS]] and [[WP:original research]]. [[User:Perception312|Perception312]] ([[User talk:Perception312|talk]]) 15:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC) === Use of a banner in an Infobox === Recently i added a Government banner in the infobox of the [[Government of Punjab, India]], but now an user keep deleting it citing that Indian states don't use banners but in reality Indian state governments use banners to represent the state government. We have a whole article on Wikipedia on this topic ([[List of Indian state flags#Banners of the states and union territories|List of Indian state flags]]), I don't want to start an editing war, what i can do now? [[User:Shubhdeep Sandhu|Shubhdeep Sandhu]] ([[User talk:Shubhdeep Sandhu|talk]]) 08:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :{{re|Shubhdeep Sandhu}} I've moved a related discussion down and put your question under it. The [[Wikipedia:Teahouse#c-Perception312-20241121150000-VeritasVanguard-20241121141400|above advice]] applies to you, too: {{tq|[start] a discussion with the user on the article's talk page to ... provide a reliable source that explicitly supports the claim that the image in question is the state's banner}}. [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 10:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Since that advice was given, you received {{querylink|qs=diff=1259272200&amp;oldid=1258302727|2=some user talk messages}} on the matter; I've found no discussions at [[Talk:Government of Punjab, India]] or the [[Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics|Noticeboard for India-related topics]]. As of this reply, the edit summary of the [[Special:Diff/1259272160|most recent revert]] says {{tq|Unreliable and irrelevant source}}, so it seems like the source you provided is inadequate. [[List of Indian state flags]] is [[WP:RSPWP|similarly unsuitable]] because anyone can edit it. [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 10:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] I have said , and will state again 'That states in India do not have flags', they have seals/emblems that they use. This is misleading to upload a file namely 'Banner of Punjab' when there is no use by the said government. The user in its Commons File deletion gives 'Indiamart' a selling platform, vexilla-mundi.com &amp; other unknown, Facebook (unreliable) sources. '''[[User:VeritasVanguard|Veritas]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:darkblue;&quot;&gt;Vanguard&lt;/span&gt;''': &lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;''&quot;Seeking truth in every edit&quot;''&lt;/span&gt; 14:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :[[User:Shubhdeep Sandhu|Shubhdeep Sandhu]], I have replied to you on [[Talk:Government of Punjab, India]]. [[User:Jeraxmoira|Jeraxmoira🐉]] ([[User talk:Jeraxmoira|talk]]) 14:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Review == Greetings, Any professional editor able to review and provide suggestions to get my article published? Thanks a million, Annie [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 09:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :[[User:Anniebeau]] Welcome to the Teahouse. I assume you are referring to [[Draft:Dan Yessian]]. The article has been reviewed twice. There are several suggestions at the top of that draft. Is there a specific suggestion that you do not understand?&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]] ([[User talk:Shantavira#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Shantavira|contribs]]) 09:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; ::@[[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] I have removed all the external links from the body text, as these are not normally allowed. I also fixed a couple of archive errors and did a bit of tidying up. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 15:16, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Mike, :::I appreciate you! Thank you! :::Andrea [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 15:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::This version is much different than the initial draft. [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 15:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Declined again. There is still a lot of unreferenced content. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 23:32, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I am unsure what is considered &quot;unreferenced&quot; as I ensured each bit of information was noted with a reference. That is why I have about 18 news articles documented. ::::Can anyone please guide me as to what information is considered unreferenced? [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 23:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::@[[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]], you have quite a lot of sentences in the Career section that appear to be unreferenced. If they are in fact all referenced by the next given citation, you may want to think about combing them into paragraphs and/or using [[WP:REFNAME|named references]] so it's clear where the information comes from. Generally, if there's no citation on the end of a sentence, and it's not a part of a longer piece of information, that sentence is likely to be considered unreferenced. [[User:StartGrammarTime|StartGrammarTime]] ([[User talk:StartGrammarTime|talk]]) 02:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Thank you for your time and guidance! [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 11:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Mike, ::::Are you talking about the note on the draft from last week, or do you mean today? [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 01:00, 25 November 2024 (UTC) In the current version, here is some of the unreferenced text: *A 1967 graduate of Wayne State University, Yessian taught speech and English for four years at Detroit's Redford High School. He left education to pursue a music career. *In 1971, Yessian Music opened in a 300-square-foot office, once an old bait shop in Farmington. He called local car dealers hoping to interest them in purchasing a custom jingle to promote their business. *Yessian wrote theme songs for sports organizations including Detroit Pistons, Detroit Red Wings, Detroit Tigers and Los Angeles Dodgers. *In the 1980s, Yessian met songwriter David Barrett (Composer &quot;One Shining Moment&quot;) with whom he composed numerous songs including a collaboration on &quot;I See Wings&quot; a song written for Yessian's documentary and symphonic work &quot;An Armenian Trilogy&quot;. There is more. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 03:37, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :David, :You are absolutely right. I will correct. :Thanks again! [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 11:27, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Wikidata tangle == I've been trying to fix the wikidata linking around [[Tambourin]], but I think it may not be possible. The situation is: * en:Tambourin covers the Provence drum &amp; dance * en:Tabor (instrument) covers the Provence drum and Catalan drum, and a Welsh version, as a superset * fr:Tambourin (sur fût) covers the Provence drum and Catalan drum * fr:Tambourin (danse) covers the dance * fr:Timbal (musique catalane) covers a Catalan version On wikidata: * &quot;tambori&quot; links to en:Tambori and fr:Tambourin (sur fût) * &quot;tambourin&quot; describes the dance; linked to fr:Tambourin (danse) and I've linked to en:Tambourin (danse), a redirect to en:Tambourin * &quot;tambourin (Provencal)&quot; (created by me) describes the drum and links to en:Tambourin * &quot;tabor&quot; links to en:Tabor (instrument) and fr:Timbal (musique catalan) Essentially, both tambori and tambourin (Provencal) need to link to fr:Tambourin (sur fût); tabor may also need to link there but doesn't appear to really have a good target; and both tambourin and tambourin (Provencal) need to link to en:Tambourin, but wikidata only allows one item to link to a given article. As you can see above I've created a redirect to fix one bit, but wikidata tries to stop you from adding these and I'm pretty sure it's not the intended solution. Does wikidata have a way of solving this? [[User:Mrfoogles|Mrfoogles]] ([[User talk:Mrfoogles|talk]]) 16:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Mrfoogles|Mrfoogles]] That sounds like a problem better handled by the experts at Wikidata. There is [[:d:WD:IWC|a place to report interwiki conflicts]]. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Conflict of Interest, New Editor, Already made edits - eek! == I am an associate member of the Society of Graphic Fine Art, and was asked by the committee to update the Wikipedia page. I have made significant changes to the article, which contained inaccurate and inadequate information. Naturally, I believe that I maintained a neutral position, but I am aware that it is not my place to judge this. I need help with this, please! I know that I need to declare this conflict of interest. I located the [[Template:UserboxCOI|UserCOI template]] and I understand that this goes on my user page - but where and how? What do I do about the edited page? I think I need to put a COI declaration on [[Society of Graphic Fine Art]] - again, I'm not sure where or how. Does another, impartial editor review my changes? Or do the changes need to be rescinded? I now know that I should not make any more edits on the Society's page (apart from very minor ones). [[User:AmandaJBates|AmandaJBates]] ([[User talk:AmandaJBates|talk]]) 18:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Don't worry all your edits were reverted as &quot;not an imporvement at all&quot;. In future please request edits with the template {{t|edit COI}}. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 18:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|AmandaJBates}} Your user page is on the one that is (currently) a read link at the end of your comment here. It will go blue when you add some content there. You can also declare your COI in a comment on [[Talk:Society of Graphic Fine Art]] (the discussion page, as opposed to the article itself), which is also where you can request future changes. You may find these pages helpful: [[WP:BOSS]] and [[WP:FAQAS|our FAQ for article subjects]]. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|AmandaJBates}}: just to note that Andy must mean &quot;red link&quot; above, not &quot;read link&quot;. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 21:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::I have no idea why somebody thought it was a good idea to list roughly 150 artists who participated in the organization's 1921 exhibition, referenced to the organization's own 1921 catalogue. Wikipedia articles about an organization should summarize what reliable sources entirely ''independent'' of the organization say about it, with very limited exceptions. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 23:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::My first thought is the fact that so many of the artists who participated in the first exhibition (1921) are subjects of Wikipedia articles reflects on the importance of the organization at its origin, BUT it is possible, nay likely, that these people became Wikipedia-notable for careers that extended long past 1921. So delete the list! [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 23:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The list will be going if I have my way, on account if its irrelevance if nothing else. [[Special:Contributions/80.41.63.175|80.41.63.175]] ([[User talk:80.41.63.175|talk]]) 10:48, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Sorry, that was me.&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:AmandaJBates|AmandaJBates]] ([[User talk:AmandaJBates|talk]]) 10:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Sadly, there is very little available material that doesn't trace back to the Society, one way or another. It's a little bit ... niche, should we say. I take it that mission statements etc are one of your exceptions? ::::&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:AmandaJBates|AmandaJBates]] ([[User talk:AmandaJBates|talk]]) 11:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Addition == if anyone’s watch the 900 days without Annabelle documentary, I feel like Rafael who was the first president of his country also tried very hard to help this case and I think that deserved to be realized in his page! I just don’t know how to write it good..[[Rafael Escuredo]] [[Special:Contributions/66.129.196.190|66.129.196.190]] ([[User talk:66.129.196.190|talk]]) 20:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, IP user. If you have an improvement to suggest to an article, the article's talk page is the best place to make the suggestion. Your suggestion is more likely to be taken seriously if you cite a [[WP:RS|reliable published source]] for any information you wish to add. (I have no idea who Rafael is, or what that documentary is about, but if you want to cite it you need to establish that it was published/aired by somebody with a reputation for editorial control and fact checking). [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 20:44, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :[[Special:Diff/1259388389|Done]]. I can't add much more because a) the ''Heraldo'' piece is [[paywalled]] and the preview doesn't say much more about [[Rafael Escuredo]]'s role and actions in the negotiations for the [[kidnapping of Anabel Segura]] and b) as @[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] said, information needs to be supported by {{tq|somebody with a reputation for editorial control and fact checking}}, and I know nothing about the production of the ''[[900 Days Without Anabel]]'' Netflix docuseries. Cheers, [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 22:03, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :: {{Ping|Rotideypoc41352}} You an request access to paywalled sources at [[WP:RX]]. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 14:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == does a COI still exist if you haven't had contact with someone for 25 years? == I'm thinking about improving the article of someone for whom I worked 25 years ago. Is that still a COI, or is the COI no longer significant, since it was decades ago? Thanks, [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 20:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :I haven't had contact with my dead grandfather for longer than that, and I'd still have a COI. :On the other hand, I'm thinking of the supervisor I had 25 years ago, and if he was clearly notable, I believe I could write a decent neutral article. I think you should be fine, just remember [[WP:NOTMEMORIAL|Wikipedia is not to be used for memorializing]]. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 20:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::You're right, I worded the question in my heading poorly, as some kinds of COIs clearly continue to exist no matter how much time has passed. I'm not going to memorialize him, just try to improve his article a bit, as it's currently a stub. I believe that I can be neutral, but am trying to figure out whether I need to declare a COI and only post edit requests. [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 21:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Base what you write on what others have published, rather on what you know. Then there should be less bias introduced by you. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 00:29, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thanks [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]], I do understand that. And thanks to [[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] as well. [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 00:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{u|FactOrOpinion}}, as I see it, the question of a conflict of interest is not a yes-or-no, black-or-white question in most cases of writing new articles or major expansions of existing articles. Instead, it is a continuum. If an editor is motivated to do the work of finding and evaluating and summarizing the reliable sources about a topic that interests them, then it can be said that they have at least a weak or mild conflict of interest about that topic. I was born and raised in Michigan and have lived in California for over 50 years, and have worked on many articles related to those two states. Back in June, my wife and I had a wonderful ten day visit to Alaska and I have since written and expanded several articles about Alaska. My favorite article that I have written about Alaska is [[Wooden halibut hook]], a topic that I had never heard of six months ago but which fascinated me when I saw them in two museums in Alaska. I think that my conflict of interest is mild even though I took two of the photos in that article. When I was a young man, I was a California mountaineer. As a new editor, I wrote a biography of [[Jules Eichorn]], a climber that I took a two week trip with, along with about 15 other climbers in the late 1970s, and I took the photo in the article of him as an older man, 40 years older than me. And now I am older than he was then. I never heard from him again. I suppose I have a conflict of interest but I think that it is minor, because the article includes none of my personal experiences, and instead summarizes the reliable sources that I cited. :::::A major problem occurs when the conflict goes beyond minor or mild, and interferes with the editor's ability to comply with Wikipedia's core content policies. The relevant language in the [[WP:COI]] policy is {{tpq|While editing Wikipedia, an editor's primary role is to further the interests of the encyclopedia. When an external role or relationship could reasonably be said to undermine that primary role, the editor has a conflict of interest similar to how a judge's primary role as an impartial adjudicator would be undermined if they were married to one of the parties. Any external relationship—personal, religious, political, academic, legal, or financial (including holding a cryptocurrency)—can trigger a COI. How close the relationship needs to be before it becomes a concern on Wikipedia is governed by common sense.}} So, we need to use common sense and recognize that &quot;can trigger a COI&quot; is not equivalent to &quot;always triggers a COI&quot;. If an editor can and does write content that is [[WP:V|verifiable]], that avoids [[WP:OR|original research]], and that complies with the [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]], then common sense tells us that the conflict of interest is mild and manageable. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 07:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]], thank you for that elaboration. I always try to abide by WP's PAGs and seek guidance when I need it. I appreciate how much time you and other experienced editors invest in helping people out. [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 15:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Request for Feedback and Assistance in Revising Draft == Dear Expert Team I hope you're doing well. I am reaching out to request your help in improving my draft article, [[Draft:Sarbjit_Singh_Jhinjher]], in light of the recent feedback provided. The reviewer pointed out that the submission does not adhere to the formal tone expected for an encyclopedia article, and I would greatly appreciate your advice on how to rewrite it in a more neutral and encyclopedic format. Additionally, I have been advised to refer to a broader range of independent, reliable, and published sources to strengthen the article. Could you please assist me by reviewing the draft, particularly focusing on: * Ensuring the tone is formal and neutral * Avoiding any &quot;peacock&quot; terms or language that promotes the subject * Suggesting improvements to improve the overall quality and adherence to Wikipedia's standards Your input would be incredibly valuable in helping me align the draft with Wikipedia's guidelines. Thank you in advance for your time and assistance. I look forward to your feedback. Best regards, [[Special:Contributions/49.156.107.234|49.156.107.234]] ([[User talk:49.156.107.234|talk]]) 20:44, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :A sample (the section &quot;Village Leadership&quot;): {{Blue|From 2013 to 2018, Jhinjer served as}} [Why &quot;served as&quot; rather than plain &quot;was&quot;?] {{Blue|the '''Sarpanch'''}} [There is no reason for this to be boldface.] {{Blue|(village head) of Jhinjran, where he contributed}} [''What'' did he contribute?] {{Blue|to the development of infrastructure}} [Water, electricity, sewerage, phone, wireless LAN, ...?] {{Blue|and improvements}} [What kind(s) of improvements?] {{Blue|in the village’s quality of life.}} And what is the (reliable and disinterested) source for all of this? -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 22:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::A different view: {{tpq|served as}} is correct and normal and commonplace English usage. In American English (at least), it is the standard way to refer to a person holding a political office, a judgeship, or a military rank. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 22:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == How is an articles importance in a Wikiproject debated? == Recently, I added articles such as [[Colossal Biosciences]], [[Arava Institute for Environmental Studies|Arava Institute for Enviromental Studies]], [[Northern white rhinoceros]], [[Ivory-billed woodpecker]], [[Vaquita]], and [[Judean date palm]] to the extinction wikiproject, as the first two are organisations known for de-extinction, the three animals are glaring examples of pure manmade declines and functional extinctions in modern times, and the date tree is the first known successful de-extinction. How do these pages have their importance rated by a Wikiproject? All of them should be given high or mid-importance due to the reasons that I stated above. [[User:Edelgardvonhresvelg|Edelgardvonhresvelg]] ([[User talk:Edelgardvonhresvelg|talk]]) 23:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :I believe we used to have an actual scale for determining the importance, but in my experience it is usually very much &quot;in the eye of the beholder&quot;, in other words, one persons' opinion. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::How do I rate their importance then? I doubt that many are interested in any of the subjects besides Colossal Biosciences due to them constantly making headlines, being endorsed by various governments, educational institutions, and celebrities. Judean date palm is also a plant, which doesn't gain much attention as a de-extinct animal as [[Pyrenean ibex|bucardo]] or soon to be de-extinct such as the [[Revival of the woolly mammoth|woolly mammoth]] or [[thylacine]]. [[User:Edelgardvonhresvelg|Edelgardvonhresvelg]] ([[User talk:Edelgardvonhresvelg|talk]]) 02:48, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Some wikiprojects have specific criteria for rating importance, such as [[WP:DOGS]] on their Assessment page, but no such criteria seem to be established for WikiProject Extinction, other than major extinction events are &quot;top&quot; importance. I would rate the importance of the mentioned articles based on how much literature on the subject appears to exist at a glance, or as Just Step Sideways stated above, however important you believe them to be. If it ends up being controversial, then the resulting discussion can start to establish what each level of importance should be applied to. [[User:Reconrabbit|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6BAD2D&quot;&gt;Recon&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Reconrabbit|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#2F3833&quot;&gt;rabbit&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::How do I give the articles importance on the Wikiproject? I doubt that the articles would be controversial for mid to high imporance. [[User:Edelgardvonhresvelg|Edelgardvonhresvelg]] ([[User talk:Edelgardvonhresvelg|talk]]) 16:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC) {| class = &quot;wikitable&quot; style = &quot;float:right; margin-left:15px&quot; |- |'''Need'''||The article is of priority or importance, regardless of its quality |- |{{Top-Class}}||Subject is a must-have for a print encyclopedia |- |{{High-Class}}||Subject contributes a depth of knowledge |- |{{Mid-Class}}||Subject fills in more minor details |- |{{Low-Class}}||Subject is mainly of specialist interest. |- |{{Bottom-Class}}||(Optional) Subject has no real significance to the project. |- |align=center|'''No'''||(Optional) Subject is a disambiguation or redirect page, residing in article space. |} I foiund this old thing, it's probably not binding on anyone but gives some idea of how it is supposed to work. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :I will add that most readers or editors do not bother looking at the importance. So it is not worthwhile to get too stressed about the rating. For top or high importance, it may reault in the article being selected in a subset publication for some purpose. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 01:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Unfortunately the table is of little help. What are the criteria for &quot;must-have&quot;, &quot;minor&quot;, etc? Importance could be defined in terms of number of accesses -- via which, of course, [[Taylor Swift]] would be of vastly more importance than, say, [[Universe]]. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 01:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Draft:Prince and Family == Hi, Would you please approve this page [[Draft:Prince and Family]]. Prince and Family is upcoming malayalam film. Thank you. [[User:FrancisMathew2255|FrancisMathew2255]] ([[User talk:FrancisMathew2255|talk]]) 09:43, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:FrancisMathew2255|FrancisMathew2255]] the draft is currently pending review. Please be patient, as there are hundreds of other drafts in the queue. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 09:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Sure. ::Thank you for your response. [[User:FrancisMathew2255|FrancisMathew2255]] ([[User talk:FrancisMathew2255|talk]]) 10:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Help with page publication == Hello, Can someone please help me with the following page which was declined twice? Italian Dopolavoro Ferroviario (DLF) [[Draft:Italian Dopolavoro Ferroviario]] Thank you, Simone [[User:Smnczz|Smnczz]] ([[User talk:Smnczz|talk]]) 10:44, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:Smnczz|Smnczz]], and welcome to the Teahouse. Please read the links in the decline notice. In summary: your citations are not properly formatted (bare URL's) which makes them hard to evaluate (see [[WP:REFB]]). But &quot;Gazzetta Officiale&quot; is almost certainly a [[WP:primary source|primary source]], and does not contribute to establishing [[WP:notability|notability]]. You need most of your citations to meet the triple criteria in [[WP:42]]. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 11:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Can Chatgpt/similar GPT be fused with Wikipedia? Will help in solving instant doubts == I am an active user of Wikipedia and this question recently struck my mind. I wanted to convey this idea to Wikipedia community to bring up a creative update. Good work folk! Keep it up! [[Special:Contributions/117.250.64.129|117.250.64.129]] ([[User talk:117.250.64.129|talk]]) 10:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, IP user. Generally, no. See [[WP:CHATGPT]] for more detail. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 11:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :If the community was interested in having ChatGPT write Wikipedia, then the community would have likely already made bots that do so. We are interested in the sum of human knowledge, not the sum of what knowledge LLMs predict humans to possess. [[User:CoffeeCrumbs|CoffeeCrumbs]] ([[User talk:CoffeeCrumbs|talk]]) 12:39, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Note that AI is notoriously unreliable. They make stuff up. See [[Hallucination (artificial intelligence)]]. [[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]]|[[User talk:Shantavira|&lt;sup&gt;feed me&lt;/sup&gt;]] 14:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::I didn't understand your question exactly, but ChatGPT has entire Wikipedia (only mainspace) in its datasets. It also may have other sections/namespaces in its datasets. Gemini accesses Wikipedia in real-time. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 16:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Academic Notability == Before I ([[User:RomanVilgut]]) post my question, I would like to be transparent about my background. I am a communications officer at the University of Graz, the second largest university in Austria with over 400 years of academic history (~28,000 students, ~3,200 academic staff including teaching). My role is not primarily editorial, it is not my main job to edit Wikipedia. However, now that I have a user, I have been asked several times to help with Wikipedia. I have therefore marked myself as a 'paid editor' in order to demonstrate my commitment to maintaining the highest standards of transparency within the Wiki community. One of our professors in the field of nano-robotics and nano-chemistry has requested my assistance in translating his Wikipedia page on the German Wikipedia ([[:de:Leonhard Grill]]) to the English Wikipedia. He is a full professor with an impressive publication record in top-tier scientific journals, including Nature and Science. He has also received numerous accolades, particularly the ERC Advanced Grant, the most prestigious grant in the European Union. Upon reviewing the notability criteria for the English Wikipedia ([[Wikipedia:Notability (academics)]]), I came to the conclusion that Criteria 1 a, d, e and Criteria 5 a, b, c appeared to be met. I therefore proceeded to create the page on the English Wikipedia [[Leonhard Grill]]. Some days later, a user added a maintenance template to the page, offering constructive feedback on the notability and citations. I added some important citations and initiated a dialogue with the user on the talk page, [[Talk:Leonhard Grill]]. The user set the bar quite high in terms of notability and told me about his extensive experience in reviewing academic pages. I then asked which criteria he felt had not been met, and the response I received made me a little cautious. I then checked the user page, where I discovered that he had revealed his true identity (which I also did). I believe he is a researcher in nano-robotics, emeritus. It would seem that he is engaged in the same scientific field as Leonhard Grill. I am also somewhat sceptical because when I look at the pages of faculty members at his university, I notice that those very high standards he is using are not always met. I feel he may be applying different standards. However, I felt that users who are not familiar with me might perceive a potential conflict of interest on my part (which I personally do not see), and so I decided to step away from the discussion. I would therefore be grateful if the wider Wikipedia community could take a look at the page and the talk. I would be grateful for any support from experienced wiki users who might conclude that the notability is high enough. I would also appreciate any tips and tricks they could share, as well as guidance on which sources should be added. We already have plenty of sources, but I would prefer not to overwhelm the reference page. But if experienced wiki users conclude that the notability is not high enough, I will respect their decision and not challenge the deletion of the page. &lt;nowiki&gt;*&lt;/nowiki&gt;Disclaimer: Since I am not a native english speaker, I used the DeepL Write to improve this text* [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 11:15, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :What is lacking are references to what people have published about him. In English Wikipedia, describing his research, with references to his sci poblications, adds nothing to establishing Wikipedia-notability. OK to list minor awards, but again, not estabilshing notability. Delete the Weblinks section for same reason. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 11:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you very much. So to conclude for me. It makes no sence to cite all his papers, that proof in what groups he worked? Cited should be works, that cite his work? ::What still puzzles me: How can a habilitation paper on the FU Berlin be no proof for habilitation (plus the fact, that he is a faculty member - I found the official journal of his appointment and cited it)? What other proof would be acceptable, a scan of the document? [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 12:46, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::2nd Question. For undergrad and Phd there is a &quot;citation needed&quot;. Both Papers are avaiable as hard copy in the library of the university of Graz. Is the link to the entry in the library-catalogue accepted as citation? [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 12:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] Regarding [[WP:NACADEMIC|notability]], we only require ''one'' of the listed criteria to be met. In my opinion, his award of the [[Feynman Prize in Nanotechnology]] is sufficient to pass criterion #2. The article can cite self-published sources (e.g. your website) for non-controversial material: see the guidance at [[WP:ABOUTSELF]] and of course can give a limited account of Grill's research. However, the biography should mainly cover his background, education and personal life. The article should not aim to be a cv but can mention highly cited papers, for example. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::As it has been mentioned that the article will be, at least partly, be translated from an article on DE-Wikipedia, [[Help:Translation]] might be of some interest...attribution etc. [[User:Lectonar|Lectonar]] ([[User talk:Lectonar|talk]]) 13:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::Per comment from Mike Turnbull, common to have a section titled Selected works, to include perhaps 5-7 publications. For academics, the university they work at often has a biographical sketch for faculty members, with information such as education; that would serve as a citation. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 17:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::I will look in the Translation-Help and try to make a selected works - section. As of citation I can use this [https://nano-lab.uni-graz.at/en/about-us/leonhard-grill/ Leonhard Grill, Professor an der Universität Graz - nano-lab.uni-graz.at] - and as mentioned, we have his graduation-papers in our library-catalogue (in hardcopy, as it was customary in the 1990ies) [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 07:53, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Tank you! We never planned a cv, just a short biography with background [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 07:51, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Reliable sources for a topic in software development == It's extremely hard if not impossible to find any source other than primary sources or a topic in software development. So I added a few sources that are not &quot;reliable&quot; just to satisfy secondary sources rule. What exactly counts as a reliable source and is it possible to make a secondary source rule exception for topics are related to software development since an unbiased view is less of concern due to rational nature of software development compared to things like politics and past events. Here is my draft [[Draft:Kestrel Web Server]] [[Special:Contributions/78.190.51.205|78.190.51.205]] ([[User talk:78.190.51.205|talk]]) 14:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. Wikipedia isn't a place to just tell about something- it's a place to summarize what independent [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] with significant coverage have chosen on their own to say about something, showing how it meets the [[WP:N|special Wikipedia definition of notability]]. If a topic isn't written about by independent reliable sources, it can't be on Wikipedia. There are other websites with less stringent requirements where people can just tell about something. :You can certainly work to obtain [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] for a carve-out in policy for software development, but it would be a long, difficult process- and I don't think it would work, as it would lead to every topic seeking a carve-out, rendering policies meaningless. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 14:27, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::But this policy has been created to reduce amount of bias right? ::While I do agree, I think software development should get a exception due to sometimes only source being the project itself. ::And when I try to seek for &quot;secondary&quot; sources they are not reliable, would a random blog post be reliable? I bet It's not. [[Special:Contributions/78.190.51.205|78.190.51.205]] ([[User talk:78.190.51.205|talk]]) 14:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::No. [[Wikipedia:GOLDENRULE]] is fundamental to how (and why) Wikipedia works. [[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]]|[[User talk:Shantavira|&lt;sup&gt;feed me&lt;/sup&gt;]] 14:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == How to add the cookies/brownies/tea/cofee/others == Hi all, I remember seeing the proper syntax and usage for all of the mentioned items above, but sometimes struggle remembering things. I would greatly appreciate any help! 15:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Luke Elaine Burke|Luke Elaine Burke]] ([[User talk:Luke Elaine Burke|talk]]) 15:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Luke Elaine Burke|Luke Elaine Burke]] Welcome to the Teahouse. These things are most easily added via templates. Take a look at {{tl|Cookies}} and you can probably guess the others. They are all in [[:Category:Food WikiLove templates]]. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 15:21, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you Micheal, have a great day! ::15:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Luke Elaine Burke|Luke Elaine Burke]] ([[User talk:Luke Elaine Burke|talk]]) 15:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Luke Elaine Burke}}Welcome to the teahouse. These are WikiLoves, and can be seen with a symbol of a heart on user talk pages (might change depending on your theme set). Thanks, [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 15:43, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you, your photography is incredible! ::[[User:Luke Elaine Burke|Luke Elaine Burke]] ([[User talk:Luke Elaine Burke|talk]]) 15:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == What are user talk pages really for? == I know what article talk pages are for, but what about user talk pages? So far, mine only has trout notifications and some notifications from a bot who harasses me every time one of my Teahouse threads gets archived. I had one person stop by and leave a message about an article I was working on at the time as well. Are user talk pages specifically for Wikipedia-related things or can I use mine for more general conversations and small talk with anyone who stops by? I ask because I saw someone else's talk page and they were talking with someone about their favorite character from a book series like it was a normal forum thread. [[User:ApteryxRainWing|ApteryxRainWing]] | [[User talk:ApteryxRainWing|Roar at me]] | [[Special:contribs/User:ApteryxRainWing|My contributions]] 15:28, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :{{Ping|ApteryxRainWing}} User talk pages are normally for delivering messages such as &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Tb}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, or even WikiLoves. They are used as a form of communication, such as alerts from AfC, etc. They can be used for notifications of a revert, warnings, etc. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 15:38, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{re|ApteryxRainWing}} user talk pages are for communication between editors regarding Wikipedia. The communication should generally take place on article's talk page, or concerned/relevant wikiproject, or venue where it can be seen by a larger group of people who might be interested in that discussion/situation. User talk pages are mostly used for notifications, and one-on-one communication. Also, I'm not sure if you know the exact meaning of &quot;harassment&quot;. If you want to stop the bot, there are clear instructions in the message itself. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 16:46, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::Not for chat, forum threads, jokes, etc. And with a few exceptions, you can archive or delete what you have been sent. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 17:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Editor change? == I was trying to work on an article the other day when I noticed a difference in how I edited. Previously, I had the visual editor, but instead I now was editing the source of the page itself. I'm pretty limited in my ability with the source code, and is there anyways to revert back to the visual editor? Did I accidentally change something in my settings? [[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] ([[User talk:Therguy10|talk]]) 16:22, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] When you're in the source editor, there's a little pen button on the right, if you click on that, you can select the visual editor. You can also change the URL directly by changing &quot;&amp;action=edit&quot; to &quot;&amp;veaction=edit&quot;. I hope this helps! [[User:Myrealnamm-alt|Myrealnamm&amp;#39;s Alternate Account]] ([[User talk:Myrealnamm-alt|talk]]) 16:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi. If you are on a talk page, VisualEditor does not work. If you are editing an article, just go to the dropdown menu as listed here :[[File:VisualEditor edit tab-en.png|300px|VisualEditor edit tab-en]] :{{pb}}I hope this helps. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 16:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Myrealnamm-alt|Myrealnamm-alt]] @[[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] Thank you! That's exactly what I needed and I really appreciate it! [[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] ([[User talk:Therguy10|talk]]) 16:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::No problem! I hope you enjoy Wikipedia! [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 17:00, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == I translated information from a different language to an article, but the original information is uncited - is this okay? == I translated the information from https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_Institute to add to [[The Interactive Institute]], as the English article is of low quality. The original article has no citations (well it has one, but it is not related to what I copied). Is this acceptable? If anyone wants to add citations to the article, I put some possible places citations could be found on the article's talk page. Thanks, [[User:The Neco-Arc|The Neco-Arc]] ([[User talk:The Neco-Arc|talk]]) 18:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :You more than doubled the length of the English article without adding any references. I do not see why the article should not be nominated for deletion. Are there no refs in the Swedish version that would help verify the English version? [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 18:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Yes, there are no references in the Swedish version that would help verify the English version. The Swedish page only has a reference for a different statement I did not translate. [[User:The Neco-Arc|The Neco-Arc]] ([[User talk:The Neco-Arc|talk]]) 05:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ping|The Neco-Arc}} Thanks for trying to improve the article, but I think it needs sources more than anything else. Wikipedia articles need to be based on [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] that are [[WP:IS|independent]] of the article's subject. You [[Talk:The Interactive Institute#Lack of references|suggested]] https://monoskop.org/Interactive_Institute, but that is a [[WP:UGC|user-generated]] wiki (i.e. unreliable), and the links there are all associated with the Interactive Institute (i.e. not independent). If there are no independent reliable sources that cover the Interactive Institute, the article will be deleted, so expanding it is like [[wikt:rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic|rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic]]. Also, while this is a moot point if the article is deleted, this paragraph [[Special:Diff/1259532546|you added]] has a very [[WP:NOTPROMO|promotional tone]]: {{tqb|The institute creates results by combining art, design and technology. By exploring and integrating these three areas, the institute strives to achieve innovative results that not only develop and question interaction and communication between people and their environment, but also challenge traditional perspectives and ways of thinking.}} Articles are improved by using a [[WP:NPOV|neutral tone]] and sticking to encyclopedic, [[WP:V|verifiable]] facts. [[User:Jlwoodwa|jlwoodwa]] ([[User talk:Jlwoodwa|talk]]) 18:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Each Wikipedia language has its own standards for neutral-point-of-view content and references, so even if what you added was a translation from the Swedish Wikipedia, the wording (and lack of independent references) cannot exist in English. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 20:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::True, it has a promotional tone. I did not know that that website is a user-generated wiki, and I cannot find any information about it other than that page, other than its website (through wayback machine, as the original website has been merged into another) and a page about a project by the institute, with little information on the institute other than some pictures of its project. As I cannot find any reliable sources on this institute itself, but it is part of RISE, I will redirect it to [[Research Institutes of Sweden]]. Thanks, [[User:The Neco-Arc|The Neco-Arc]] ([[User talk:The Neco-Arc|talk]]) 05:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Bookmarking oft-visited WP sites possible? == I now have a lot of sites I want to visit on occasion, such as my mentor's Talk page, some of the policy and guidance information like conflict of interest, and how to add images. Does Wikipedia have a Bookmark feature, as do Chrome, Safari, and other browsers? [[User:Augnablik|Augnablik]] ([[User talk:Augnablik|talk]]) 19:23, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Augnablik|Augnablik]] To a point, yes, you can add them to your [[WP:W|watchlist]]. :As for stuff that's unlikely to be updated but that you want to keep track of, I, as an Opera GX user, tend to simply have the tabs open in one of my workspaces so I don't have to go rummaging through my regular browser bookmarks. [[User:CommissarDoggo|&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008&quot;&gt;Commissar&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Doggo&lt;/b&gt;]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|&lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Talk?&lt;/sup&gt;]]'' 19:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:Augnablik|Augnablik]]. Another possibility is to add a list of links to your favourite pages on your user page (or a user subpage). [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 19:34, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:CommissarDoggo|CommissarDoggo]] and @[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]], thank you both for your ideas. I think Colin’s suggestion comes a little closer to what I was thinking of, but I should mention that after I posted this question here in the Teahouse, I thought to ask my mentor if perhaps there was a way to make a request of the tekkies to create a feature. ::In his reply, he mentioned the Wishlist. I’ll probably try that, though I know there’s no guarantee of a Wiki Bookmark feature ever being created — and of course that will take awhile. So I’ll try out all 3 of your suggestions, starting by trying to set up a User sub-page first. [[User:Augnablik|Augnablik]] ([[User talk:Augnablik|talk]]) 17:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == I want to upload a photo == I found an image that is crucial for illustrating early COVID-19 cases in Wuhan, which is directly relevant to an article on Wikipedia about the origins of the pandemic. What is the rationale that it's legal to upload this image under a fair use claim? The image is copyrighted, but I believe it falls under fair use for educational purposes. Does this justify uploading it? How can I ensure that I meet the requirements for fair use on Wikipedia, and are there any additional considerations or guidelines I should be aware of? The image is located at the following webpage: Worobey, M. (2021). Dissecting the early COVID-19 cases in Wuhan: Elucidating the origin of the pandemic requires understanding of the Wuhan outbreak. Science, 374(6572), 1202–1204. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.abm4454&amp;nbsp;[[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 20:47, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi {{u|Lardlegwarmers}}. There's information on this in [[:Wikipedia:Non-free content]] and [[:Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria]]; however, please understand that [[:fair use]] and non-free content use aren't exactly the same thing when it comes to Wikipedia, and Wikipedia's non-free content use policy [[:WP:NFC#Background|has been intentionally set up to be more restrictive than fair use]]. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 21:24, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::If you're asking about [https://www.science.org/cms/10.1126/science.abm4454/asset/a71068b5-36dc-4cf5-b1ff-5896a3f0ffb0/assets/graphic/science.abm4454-f1.svg this map], then I think you're going to have are time justifying it's non-free use per [[:WP:FREER]] and [[:WP:NFC#CS]]. The map of China itself is almost certainly not eligible for copyright protection per [[:c:COM:CB#Maps and satellite imagery]] because outlines of countries and place names are elements typically considered eligible for copyright protection; so, someone could essentially create their own map if they want. It's the way the data the map's based on is expressed visually that might be eligible for copyright protection, but the same information doesn't necessarily need to be expressed using this particular map or any map at all for Wikipedia's purposes; it could be expressed as plain text, in a [[:Wikipedia:Table]] or in some other form. If this map itself, however, was the subject of sourced critical commentary in reliable sources (either because others thought it to be accurate or perhaps thought it to be inaccurate), then that might be a way to justify its non-free use, but just wanting to show it as a map because it's a map is probably not going to be enough. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 00:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Reverting on mobile == How do I revert an article to a previous edit on mobile, as well as undo an edit? I am on an iPhone. [[User:AlexTheWikipedian|AlexTheWikipedian]] ([[User talk:AlexTheWikipedian|talk]]) 22:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi {{u|AlexTheWikipedian}}. I believe if you scroll all the way down to the bottom of a Wikipedia page while using the mobile Wikipedia site, I'm pretty sure you're given the option to view the page in &quot;Desktop mode&quot;. If you click this, you should see the page as you would see it using the regular Wikipedia set up, and be able to edit just like you would edit any Wikipedia. Be aware, though, that your mobie service provider might be using an IP proxy that is blocked from making edits per [[:Wikipedia:Open proxies]]; you can view pages fine, but you just can't edit them. So, if you go to desktop mode and still can't edit because the IP address your account is using has been blocked, there might not be much you can do except try [[:Wikipedia:IP block exemption]]. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 01:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == U.S. govt sources not credible for bio of U.S. diplomat? == Hi folks, I’ve been working on a bio page for a prominent international official, [[Draft:Mary Beth Goodman|draft here]]. The sources myself and other drafters have cited to document her career history are mostly from the U.S. government (the White House, the Congress, the Department of State) or from auxiliary roles she held in international bodies as a diplomat. Existing wiki bio pages for U.S. officials who have held the same position(s) or even more junior ones use the same types of sources. I’ve linked to examples of those bio pages in the draft’s talk page. However, I’m stuck. Several editors have rejected the draft bio because the sources aren’t sufficiently independent or credible, and they’ve suggested newspapers as alternative sources. Unfortunately news coverage of most diplomats’ careers doesn’t exist, so beyond what’s included in the media section of her page, I haven’t found sources such as the type they have recommended. How do I reconcile the reality of the sourcing (which has seemed legitimate enough to substantiate other bio pages) with the recommendations from editors? I’d appreciate advice re: what makes the existing sources in the draft not credible, and overall, what kinds of additional sources are needed to verify a living person’s bio when the majority of their career is documented by government and government-adjacent sources. Thanks in advance for the guidance. 🙏🙏 This is my first attempt at major drafting and it seems this is a bigger project than I had intended. [[User:Lfdigests|Lfdigests]] ([[User talk:Lfdigests|talk]]) 23:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :You need more articles from reliable sources to confirm notability. See [[WP: NOTABILITY]]. [[User:Ahri Boy|Ahri Boy]] ([[User talk:Ahri Boy|talk]]) 00:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :[[User:Lfdigests|Lfdigests]], I'm going to leave a message for one of the reviewers on the Talk page for your draft. I'm not going to have a lot of time during the next week, but will try to check back. I would think that she should be presumed notable by virtue of her high position in the OECD, though I could be wrong about that (and I'll ask about that on the Talk page). I don't have time to dig in on the references, etc., but I suggest that you look through the &quot;Publications, remarks, and media&quot; section (which you'll need to trim) and see if some of those confirm her notability (per WP's definition of [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]]), in which case you can use them as references. For example, I would think that the 4 minute NPR interview with her about the US's global COVID response is that sort of reference (the interview isn't about her, but she's seen as an expert, and NPR is an independent reliable source). &lt;small&gt;Edited to add: As I think about this more, I'm less certain that that helps establish her notability, since it's not significant coverage of ''her'', only significant coverage of the US international COVID response; I've asked SafariScribe about that on the Draft Talk page.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 02:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Automatic search for red links == Hello ! Anybody can say me if there are a way for an automatic search for red links ? When I see an article with red links. If there are articles about the topic available in another language than English. &lt;br /&gt; I create an interlanguage link. I'm unable to translate into English because I'm not a native speaker of this language and my translations could be too literal. &lt;br /&gt; I can translate from English into French but not the reverse. Therefore , create an interlanguage link is a good beginning but I don't know if we can search these links with internal search engine of Wikipedia. [[User:Anatole-berthe|Anatole-berthe]] ([[User talk:Anatole-berthe|talk]]) 23:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :You might ask any MediaWiki dev about your idea. [[User:Ahri Boy|Ahri Boy]] ([[User talk:Ahri Boy|talk]]) 00:01, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thanks for your answer ! &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; ::I don't know where to find a developper. ::I don't ever known where can I look to find one of them. ::Can you help me ? [[User:Anatole-berthe|Anatole-berthe]] ([[User talk:Anatole-berthe|talk]]) 00:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::See [[mw:Project:Support desk]]. [[User:Ahri Boy|Ahri Boy]] ([[User talk:Ahri Boy|talk]]) 00:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thanks you ! [[User:Anatole-berthe|Anatole-berthe]] ([[User talk:Anatole-berthe|talk]]) 02:23, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Anatole-berthe}} You could try this in {{yourjs}} to search Wikidata for the page name you are on, also if it's a red link: :::::&lt;syntaxhighlight lang=&quot;javascript&quot;&gt; mw.loader.using(['mediawiki.util'], function () { mw.util.addPortletLink( 'p-tb', '//www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=' + encodeURIComponent( mw.config.get('wgPageName') ), 'Wikidata search', 't-wikidatasearch', 'Search the page name in Wikidata', null, '#t-wikibase' ); }); &lt;/syntaxhighlight&gt; :::::It may not find other spellings and scripts. On [[Igor Artemov]] it gives [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Igor_Artemov Wikidata search] which finds {{Q|Q4070423}}. On [[Alexander Saliy]] it gives [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Alexander_Saliy Wikidata search] which doesn't find {{Q|Q16335510}}. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 02:24, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If I understood rightly. I create a page in my user's subpage '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js&quot;'''. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::Then , I can create a subpage inside '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js&quot;&quot;''' and for example I name it '''&quot;Finders&quot;'''. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::In '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js/Finders&quot;''' I can create a subpage named '''&quot;redlinkfinder.js&quot;'''. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::When I'll go to '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js/ScriptsJS/redlinkfinder.js&quot;'''. I'll be able to use the script if I copy and paste the code there. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::I'm not certain to understand if the script can be in the subpage of a subpage. ::::I prefer to organise my '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js&quot;'''. with subpages for a better organisation. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::I say you thanks because even if this script have the limits you exposed. It's better than nothing. [[User:Anatole-berthe|Anatole-berthe]] ([[User talk:Anatole-berthe|talk]]) 02:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Anatole-berthe}} I have made it a user script with installation instructions: [[User:PrimeHunter/Wikidata search.js]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 14:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Combine Blank Page with Draft Page == {{Blockquote|Hi, and thank you for [[Special:Contributions/Teahouse|your contributions]] to Wikipedia. It appears that you tried to give [[:Draft:Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal]] a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into [[:Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal]]. This is known as a &quot;[[Wikipedia:History merging|cut-and-paste move]]&quot;, and it is undesirable because it splits the [[Help:Page history|page history]], which is [[Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia|legally required for attribution]]. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be ''moved'' to a new title together with their edit history. In most cases for registered users, once your account is [[Wikipedia:User access levels#Autoconfirmed and confirmed users|four days old and has ten edits]], you should be able to move an article yourself using the [[Wikipedia:Moving a page|&quot;Move&quot; tab]] at the top of the page (the tab may be [[:File:Vector hidden move button.png|hidden in a dropdown menu]] for you). This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect]] from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested moves]] to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at [[Wikipedia:Requests for history merge]]. Thank you.}} -- [[User:KaabiiRamen|KaabiiRamen]] ([[User talk:KaabiiRamen|talk]]) 02:18, 26 November 2024 (UTC) : Hi {{u|KaabiiRamen}}. Do you have a question about how to use [[:Template:uw-c&amp;pmove]]? Do you have a question as to why [[:WP:HISTMERGE|copy and paste page moves]] are generally not recommended? Do you have a question about [[:Draft:Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal]] or {{no redirect|Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal}}? It will be easier for others to try and help you if you can clarify why you started this discussion. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 02:33, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Hello! I created the Draft page but then realized a page for it already existed that all it did was redirect. So i thought the best course of action would to move the draft data to the existing article. But it recommended tranferring which I can't do because the page already exists. So i was hoping to add the draft data to the existing article. [[User:KaabiiRamen|KaabiiRamen]] ([[User talk:KaabiiRamen|talk]]) 03:12, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::Thank you for clarifying {{u|KaabiiRamen}}. Given that the draft you want to move has already been declined once by an AfC reviewer, it's probably not a good idea for you to try to do so yourself even though it might be technically possible for you to do. Moving the page yourself at this point could lead to it being nominated for deletion if another user shares the AfC reviewer's concerns about the draft. If you're not sure what those concerns are or how to address them, you could ask the AfC reviewer who declined the draft for clarification, or you could ask for help at [[:WP:AFCHELP]]. For what it's worth, there's no limit on the number of times a draft can be submitted for AfC review as long as the same declined version doesn't keep being resubmitted over and over again. Moreover, if an AfC reviewer approves the draft, they will take care of all the cleanup associated with moving the page. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 04:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::Hi again KaabiiRamen. Given the comment just added to the draft's page by {{u|Anachronist}}, I definitely don't recommend you try to move the draft to the mainspace, but instead try to look for better sources to help establish the subject's Wikipedia notability per [[:WP:NSOFTWARE]]. Moving the draft to the mainspace yourself almost will certainly, at the very least, lead to it being [[:WP:DRAFTIFY|draftified]] but could also lead to the article being [[:WP:AFD|nominated for deletion]]. If you're having a hard time finding appropriate sources yourself, you could try asking for help at [[:WT:VG]]. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 05:26, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ==[[Markus Paterson]]== I noticed he is in digital romantic comedy series on YouTube and he has a small role maybe a guest role. I want to add this on his filmography but the only source i can find is the full episode on YouTube. What can I do if he officially appeared but there are no other sources regarding this. What can I do? [[Special:Contributions/122.55.235.127|122.55.235.127]] ([[User talk:122.55.235.127|talk]]) 03:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :If the actual owner of the show published it on their own YouTube channel, then you could consider it an 'official' primary source and cite it. If it's just a video that some random youtuber uploaded, then you can't cite it. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 04:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ec}} Hi IP 122.55.235.127. If there are no potential copyright violation issues per [[:WP:YOUTUBE]] and [[:WP:COPYLINK]], you can cite YouTube as the source. You can use a [[:WP:CT|citation template]] like [[:Template:Cite serial]] or [[:Template:Cite episode]] for that if you want and use the YouTube url for the {{para|url}} parameter. If there's a problem linking to YouTube, you can still cite the series or episode itself without providing a link by just leaving the {{para|url}} blank. [[:WP:OFFLINE|Wikipedia doesn't require sources cited be available online]], but it does require that they be [[:WP:RS|reliable]] and [[:WP:V|verifiable]], and offline sources are fine as long as you provide sufficient information about the source being cited. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 04:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Nomination of Malik Jamroz Khan for deletion == Good Morning I created this page regarding a know figure of our small area, who also happens to be my great grand father. The article contained only his bio and achievements made during his life time. It was created more than a decade ago. There was nothing controversial since it only had the bio of a known person with zero material objectionable to anybody. I know now been informed that the article has been ' nominated for deletion'. One wonders how can that be?? How can a non-controversial person, passed away in 1964, with few words written on his bio can be nominated for deletion???? [[User:Mujeebkanju1|Mujeebkanju1]] ([[User talk:Mujeebkanju1|talk]]) 04:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Being controversial isn't why articles are nominated for deletion nor is being harmless a reason to keep an article. Articles are nominated for deletion when they don't meet our standards for notability. Many older articles fell through the cracks and nobody got around to nominating them for deletion; there are nearly seven million articles here. The editors who discussed it all concluded that it was complete missing reliable, independent sources about Khan and that no improvements had been made to remedy the situation for 15 years. Can you provide three good sources that are primarily ''about'' Khan and that are both reliable and independent? If so, you can always try and write a new, compliant article and submit it to Articles for Creation. [[User:CoffeeCrumbs|CoffeeCrumbs]] ([[User talk:CoffeeCrumbs|talk]]) 05:09, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi, and welcome to Wikipedia, however, I think you may be operating under misperceptions of how our [[WP:deletion policy|deletion policy]] works. We [[WP:NOTCENSORED|do not]] delete articles because they are &quot;controversial.&quot; In your case, the article was deleted because it was found that Malik Jamroz Khan was not sufficiently [[WP:NPERSON|notable]] for inclusion in Wikipedia. For notability, [[WP:42|there must be significant coverage of the subject in independent, reliable, secondary sources]], which was not the case for this article. [[User:JJPMaster|JJP]]&lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:JJPMaster|Mas]]&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/JJPMaster|ter]]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt; ([[She (pronoun)|she]]/[[Singular they|they]]) 05:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Hi! I tried to nominate the article for deletion. Never done that, not sure if I did it right. == Hi! I tried to nominate the article. Google said to place the code, I tried. Let me know if that is the right way to do it. Thank you, guys. [[Earmilk]]. [[Special:Contributions/172.115.16.132|172.115.16.132]] ([[User talk:172.115.16.132|talk]]) 05:30, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi 172.115.16.132, you have to &quot;[[WP:subst|subst]]&quot; the template, so it should start like this: &lt;nowiki&gt;{{subst:Proposed deletion&lt;/nowiki&gt; [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 05:35, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::I did, but nothing changed. Can you take a look? [[Special:Contributions/172.115.16.132|172.115.16.132]] ([[User talk:172.115.16.132|talk]]) 05:37, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::An administrator named {{u|Queen of Hearts}} fixed the template's syntax; however, there's a difference between [[:WP:PROD|proposing an article for deletion]] (what you did) and [[:WP:AFD|nominating an article for deletion]]. Anyone may [[:WP:DEPROD]] the article (i.e. remove the proposed deletion template you added) for any reason or no reason at all; if that happens, don't re-add the template because an article can only be proposed for deletion once. If, at that point, you still feel the article should be deleted, you will need to start a regular AfD discussion and explain why. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 06:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{user|Queen of Hearts}} fixed the template, but I've contested the PROD for reasons given in my [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Earmilk&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259632598 edit summary]. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 06:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::&lt;nowiki&gt;I apologize. I still cannot understand how it is done. I do not understand where to add this {{&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[Template:Afd|subst:afd]]&lt;nowiki&gt;|Weather in London}}, and how to create the discussion.&lt;/nowiki&gt; [[Special:Contributions/2600:382:1153:E2F8:C09A:943E:E69E:6064|2600:382:1153:E2F8:C09A:943E:E69E:6064]] ([[User talk:2600:382:1153:E2F8:C09A:943E:E69E:6064|talk]]) 07:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Looks like you [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Earmilk|figured it out]]? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 08:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::yes, I am sorry for many repeated edits. I could not understand the instructions. [[User:Moondust534|Moondust534]] ([[User talk:Moondust534|talk]]) 08:05, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::No worries - those instructions are indeed a bit too complicated for beginners. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 08:09, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == [[Arturo Muñoz (intelligence)]] == Can anyone support another editor with [[Arturo Muñoz (intelligence)]]? The subject of the article, {{User|Arturo Guillermo Munoz}}, is not happy about the hyperbole in the article. There is also a lot of unsourced information. I started stripping it down but realised there wouldn't be a lot left, and his career is not something I'd have the expertise to find new references about. The user suggests that maybe there shouldn't be an article on him at all; I'm not able to judge notability in this topic area. Many thanks, [[User:Tacyarg|Tacyarg]] ([[User talk:Tacyarg|talk]]) 07:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Tacyarg}} This seems to be in hand, but for future reference [[WP:BLPN]] is a page dedicated to such matters. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 13:39, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == touch n go == i want mt statement but im already lost my account [[Special:Contributions/2001:D08:1420:7E23:90D1:BDA0:CFD8:F57E|2001:D08:1420:7E23:90D1:BDA0:CFD8:F57E]] ([[User talk:2001:D08:1420:7E23:90D1:BDA0:CFD8:F57E|talk]]) 09:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, it is unclear what question you are asking. Please rephrase? &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;qcne&lt;/span&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:02, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :{{welcometea}} If this is about the Malaysian Touch 'n Go card, we cannot help you. —[[User:Tenryuu|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#556B2F&quot;&gt;Tenryuu&amp;nbsp;🐲&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;(&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&amp;nbsp;•&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&amp;nbsp;) 10:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::I think the OP meant to say 'my' as the letters 'T' and 'Y' are next to each other and its not in uppercase. In that case, if you provided an email and have access to it, you should reset your password. Otherwise, you have no choice but to create a new account and (if you remember the username) remember to state somewhere that you were formerly edited under another username and to explain the situation, [[WP:COMPSOCK]]. [[User:JuniperChill|JuniperChill]] ([[User talk:JuniperChill|talk]]) 17:17, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Validity of an Wikipedia:Notability § Stand-alone lists article == &lt;s&gt;I would like to consult your views regarding a discussion on [[:tr:Vikipedi:Silinmeye_aday_sayfalar/Aydın'daki_ilköğretim_okulları_listesi|Turkish Wikipedia]] about an article deletion request. I am advocating for it to '''keep''', while the other editor argues for its '''deletion'''. Although Wikipedia in one language does not directly bind another language, I need to ask this because the editor in favor deletion has referenced a rule from English Wikipedia.&lt;/s&gt; To eliminate any confusion, I am crossing out the irrelevant parts. My question is related to the status of the article on English Wikipedia. I'm asking for your views about the article of [[List of public elementary schools in New York City]]. The other editor thinks that [[List of public elementary schools in New York City]]: * the article should be deleted, * or the listed schools should be removed, as they believe the list can only include entries with blue links. (Thinks that blue links indicates notability. However, [[WP:CSC]] explicitly contradicts.) * and cites [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists#LISTTYPES]] dynamic list section. I will explain the position I am advocating for based your views. For now, I would like to know in your opinion schools in NYC article complies with the rules in terms of its list feature and the schools it includes. [[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] ([[User talk:TarantaBabu|talk]]) 10:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]]: {{welcometea}} We can't provide feedback on the policies of other language Wikipedias, even if users decide to cite something from here. The most I can tell you to do is to be familiar with the Turkish Wikipedia's policies and base any argument you have on those. —[[User:Tenryuu|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#556B2F&quot;&gt;Tenryuu&amp;nbsp;🐲&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;(&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&amp;nbsp;•&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&amp;nbsp;) 10:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you but I'm not asking for feedbacks on the policies of Turkish Wikipedia. To be precise: [[List of public elementary schools in New York City]] in here whether it is legit article or not. The author thinks otherwise. [[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] ([[User talk:TarantaBabu|talk]]) 10:32, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::Just to clarify, are you asking whether we think the list is notable, because the Turkish version of is undergoinging a deletion discussion? If so, we can't help you with that - every wiki has their own policies and notability guidelines. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 10:47, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Of course but you can skip Turkish part, since I wanted elaborate context of the question. Based on English Wikipedia policies and notability guidelines, is the [[list of public elementary schools in New York City]] valid or not? It is the question of mine. [[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] ([[User talk:TarantaBabu|talk]]) 10:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Per [[WP:NLIST]], yes, it's a valid list. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 11:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Thank you for your view. I, also, think so. I am still up for other comments. [[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] ([[User talk:TarantaBabu|talk]]) 11:39, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Sourcing question == In the article for [[Walmart]], I wrote a sentence in the History section about them ending their DEI program and delisting gender affirming products for minors. I originally cited an ABC News article, but I found an article from the Associated Press, which I believe is a more reliable source when it comes to current events. As of my edit, both sources are there to back up my sentence but I kind of want to get rid of the ABC citation since AP is a better source. Should I get rid of it and leave the AP citation, or leave it alone with two citations? Additionally, to avoid any confusion in the future, does Wikipedia have some sort of tierlist or something for sources that ranks how accurate and reliable they are? I know we have one for bias, but I am not sure about accuracy. [[User:ApteryxRainWing|ApteryxRainWing]] | [[User talk:ApteryxRainWing|Roar at me]] | [[Special:contribs/User:ApteryxRainWing|My contributions]] 14:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi! If this is a problem, both sources, should be clear, as said by the reliability chart. I have placed some screenshots below to show you. [[File:ABC news reliability list 1.png]] [[File:AP News reliability result 1.png]] I would suggest to keep both, but it all comes down to the reference. For the full list of common references, click [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources|here]] Thanks, [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 14:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Thank you. For future reference, is it a good idea to have multiple citations on a claim, especially one about a recent and/or controversial development? On the surface it sounds like it adds credibility to my statement but having too many sources might impact readability because of all the blue superscript numbers. [[User:ApteryxRainWing|ApteryxRainWing]] | [[User talk:ApteryxRainWing|Roar at me]] | [[Special:contribs/User:ApteryxRainWing|My contributions]] 14:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:ApteryxRainWing|User:ApteryxRainWing]] I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Walmart&amp;diff=1259709496&amp;oldid=1259690979 fixed your ABC News citation]. One consideration is whether readers can access one source better than another source when there are two equivalent ones you could use. That isn't relevant here, as both are live weblinks. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:12, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::Would website stability contribute to that factor? AP has a lot of ads that slow the site down but ABC runs smoothly even on my terrible chromebook [[User:ApteryxRainWing|ApteryxRainWing]] | [[User talk:ApteryxRainWing|Roar with me!!!]] | [[Special:contribs/User:ApteryxRainWing|My contributions]] 17:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Would the LMU Open Science Center be notable for an Wikipedia article? == Is the [https://www.osc.uni-muenchen.de/index.html LMU Open Science Center] notable enough for the English Wikipedia? It is an independent part of the [[Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich|LMU]] in [[Munich]]. I'm not sure which notability criteria would apply to a semi independent part of a university, with its own staff etc. There are external sources about it, but not much as it often happens with academic institutions themself. Here would be some additional sources: * https://www.lmu.de/en/newsroom/news-overview/news/bringing-transparency-to-research-practice.html * https://explore.openaire.eu/search/publication?pid=10.5281%2Fzenodo.10285395 * https://network.febs.org/posts/embedding-open-research-in-institutional-practices * https://portal.volkswagenstiftung.de/search/projectDetails.do?ref=9D211 [[User:Kristbaum|Kristbaum]] ([[User talk:Kristbaum|talk]]) 14:28, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:Kristbaum|Kristbaum]], and welcome to the Teahouse. The four sources above contribute absolutely nothing to notability for the Centre, as the first three are not independent, and the last is a mere listing (and probably not independent either). You need three or more sources each of which meets ''all three'' of the criteria in [[WP:42]]. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 17:52, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Searching for a good place for article creation ideas == Hello TeaHouse!, I am new to editing and writing on wikipedia but there are some topics that I believe should have articles but don't. I am afraid to write an article on some of the topics as I am by no means an expert. However, I was wondering if there was a forum, talk page, or any kind of location that I could post some of these ideas in hopes that someone may want to write an article but is looking for an article to write. What is the most appropriate place to post suggestions like that? [[User:Middle Mac CJM|'''Middle Mac CJM''']] ([[User talk:Middle Mac CJM|talk]]) 15:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Middle Mac CJM|Middle Mac CJM]] To my knowledge, the best place would be the [[WP:SUGGEST|requested articles]] page. [[User:CommissarDoggo|&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008&quot;&gt;Commissar&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Doggo&lt;/b&gt;]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|&lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Talk?&lt;/sup&gt;]]'' 15:09, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you!!! [[User:Middle Mac CJM|'''Middle Mac CJM''']] ([[User talk:Middle Mac CJM|talk]]) 15:24, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Middle Mac CJM|Middle Mac CJM]] While in theory that should work, the reality is that there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of proposed article topics and very, very rarely are any taken up. If you believe a topic deserves an article then [[WP:YFA]] is the path. That said, there is a strong recommendation to gain experience improving existing articles before essaying to create. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 18:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == wikipedias user == whats Wikipedias user [[User:TheSmartWikiOne|TheSmartWikiOne]] ([[User talk:TheSmartWikiOne|talk]]) 16:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello @[[User:TheSmartWikiOne|TheSmartWikiOne]], and welcome to Wikipedia. It's unclear what exactly you're asking; can you please rephrase? [[User:CoconutOctopus|&lt;span style=&quot;color: purple&quot;&gt;CoconutOctopus&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:CoconutOctopus|&lt;span style=&quot;color: pink&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]] 16:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == About and other templates == In [[aliasing (factorial experiments)]], I want to modify the headnote to read: ''This article is about aliasing in statistics, in particular fractional factorial designs. For other uses, see [[Aliasing (disambiguation)]].'' If I try to do this using the &quot;About&quot; template, I get: ''This article is about aliasing in statistics, in particular fractional factorial designs. For other uses, see [[Aliasing (factorial experiments) (disambiguation)]].'' There is no such disambiguation page. I don't see a way to use extra arguments to do what I want. The templates &quot;Other uses&quot; and &quot;For&quot; are not helpful here, either, and I'm assuming that I would need to write a unique headnote for this purpose. I'd appreciate some assistance in this. [[User:Johsebb|Johsebb]] ([[User talk:Johsebb|talk]]) 16:32, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Johsebb|Johsebb]] What you need is &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{About|aliasing in statistics, in particular fractional factorial designs|other uses, see|Aliasing (disambiguation)}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. Copy/paste this directly from the rendered text, as you don't need the nowiki etc. you see in the source code. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:01, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == How to cite a PDF? == I'm trying to cite this PDF:https://www.deped.gov.ph/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/DO_s2008_060.pdf for the [[Philippine English]] article's starting paragraph, but I don't know how to cite stuff manually. [[User:BadEditor93|BadEditor93]] ([[User talk:BadEditor93|talk]]) 16:47, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:BadEditor93|BadEditor93]] The easiest template to use is {{tl|cite web}}. See that link for the parameters it takes. The URL for the .pdf goes into the &lt;code&gt;|url=&lt;/code&gt; parameter and you fill out others like the title, date and authors from the content of the .pdf itself. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 16:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == I found a somewhat suspicious user. It seems as though they're editing things to advertise a business. == I do know that the user is actually contributing, or at least... it looks like it. I'm not really experienced enough to what to do from here. Can someone help me out? [[User:AmrAlWatan|AmrAlWatan]]([[User_talk:AmrAlWatan|🗣️]]|[[Special:Contributions/AmrAlWatan|📝]]) 16:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:AmrAlWatan|AmrAlWatan]] Could you link what you're referencing for us? [[User:CommissarDoggo|&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008&quot;&gt;Commissar&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Doggo&lt;/b&gt;]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|&lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Talk?&lt;/sup&gt;]]'' 16:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == How would you mark an article for good? == I know that some articles are marked as &quot;good&quot; across the website. (about 0.53%?) How would I go about trying to nominate an article for being good? And if it's rejected, would I be given feedback on how to improve said article? (In my case I'm trying to nominate [[Millennium Force]]; it's an article I've poured time into and am really passionate about) [[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] ([[User talk:Therguy10|talk]]) 16:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] See [[WP:GA]]. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 17:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] That article is already a [[WP:FA|featured article]]. [[WP:GA|Good articles]] are actually of a lower standard! [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Details, details. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 17:05, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Michael D. Turnbull]] Oh wow! That makes me pretty happy! ::Well into the future, if I was to try to make a different article good status, how would that work? I really don't have any article in mind but for future reference that could be helpful. [[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] ([[User talk:Therguy10|talk]]) 17:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::The links to [[WP:GA]] that have already been provided give full details. Note the various tabs for instructions/nomination/etc. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] @[[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Michael D. Turnbull]] Oh whoops I didn't see that. Thank you both! [[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] ([[User talk:Therguy10|talk]]) 17:18, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Why does wiki sometimes show &quot;Edit&quot; and other times show &quot;Edit Source&quot;? == Its annoying for my 2 braincells, since I'm horrible at source editing, but it always shows up, unless for suggested edits. Is there a way to toggle this? [[User:BlazeFlames|BlazeFlames]] ([[User talk:BlazeFlames|talk]]) 18:31, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:BlazeFlames|BlazeFlames]], are you having this problem on article pages or only elsewhere? There is no Visual Editor support for talk pages, for example, so it's only edit source available there. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 18:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Why do some categories on some pages seem unremovable? == Recently I discovered that the [[1910 United States census|1910 United States Census]] was in the category [[:Category:Cities in the United States|Cities in the United States]]. I attempted to remove the category using visual editor, but it didn't show up in the category box while editing. I then went to source editor, and it didn't appear in the source code. Does anyone have any idea why this is the case? &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Arial; padding: 2px 3px 1px 3px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Gaismagorm|&lt;span style=&quot;color: teal&quot;&gt;Gaismagorm&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Gaismagorm|&lt;span style=&quot;color: teal&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:40, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Might be a category that comes with a template. If someone else [here] doesn't beat me to it, I'll take a look later today or early tomorrow. [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 18:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :I think it's because of [[Template:United States Cities Labeled Map 1910 Large]]. I don't know how to stop it doing it though. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 18:46, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Is enough info for an article/stub? == Hey Teahouse! I have some question regarding an article I'm debating on creating. The article I am debating is on the effects of [[Millennium Force]], particularly in the station and queue. Throughout the main article on Millennium Force, there are some references and notes regarding station effects and history, a lot of which was added by me. However, that only scratches the surface of what there actually is and has been. I'm just unsure as to whether it fits in the main article, and I believe I could create a sub-article of sorts explaining the information in a much, much better way than there is now. For example, under the &quot;station&quot; heading, a note is mentioned about 3 sets of dispatch audio. It had citations to the audio and the fact that there may be more, but that's it. In reality, those audio sets have a deeper history, such as the decade old promos that they came in. This is prevalent again with the in-station projectors. I mentioned that they had been brought back in a new but limited fashion, but didn't get to touch on the history of them, or why they weren't even working on the time. (I even emailed Cedar Point's spokesperson regarding this and got a good answer with info!) There is just so much interesting and deep history regarding the queue, station, and cable lift effects that don't get mentioned at all in the main article. I have and can get more citations for all of the info, but I just don't know if it would qualify for Wikipedia. Like would I have to take some existing information regarding the effects from the main page? Or could there be some brief info on the main page with all of the in-depth info on a &quot;sub-page&quot;? I would love some feedback on this! [[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] ([[User talk:Therguy10|talk]]) 18:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:EvergreenFir&diff=1259725893</id> <title>User talk:EvergreenFir</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:EvergreenFir&diff=1259725893"/> <updated>2024-11-26T18:50:05Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: /* Proxies */ new section <hr /> <div>{{archives|auto=yes|search=yes|}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{talk archive navigation}} |maxarchivesize = 150K |counter = 24 |minthreadsleft = 3 |minthreadstoarchive = 1 |algo = old(14d) |archive = User talk:EvergreenFir/Archive %(counter)d }} == Kid's shows == I don't even understand. I know everyone needs a hobby, but why? [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 23:20, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] maybe [[Perseveration#Associated_conditions_and_manifestations|perseveration]]? Or just a child editor. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#8b00ff;&quot;&gt;Eve&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6528c2;&quot;&gt;rgr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#3f5184;&quot;&gt;een&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#197947;&quot;&gt;Fir&lt;/span&gt;''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] 23:36, 11 November 2024 (UTC) == Reminder to participate in Wikipedia research == Hello, I recently invited you to take a survey about administration on Wikipedia. If you haven’t yet had a chance, there is still time to participate– we’d truly appreciate your feedback. The survey is anonymous and should take about 10-15 minutes to complete. 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Best, [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Teahouse&diff=1259724867</id> <title>Wikipedia:Teahouse</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Teahouse&diff=1259724867"/> <updated>2024-11-26T18:43:51Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: find something better to do with your life, please <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Community Q&amp;A hub for new editors}}{{pp-vandalism|small=yes}} {{pp-vandalism|small=yes}} {{skip to top and bottom}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{Automatic archive navigator}} |maxarchivesize = 400K |counter = 1241 |minthreadsleft = 10 |minthreadstoarchive = 45 |algo = old(48h) |archive = Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive %(counter)d }} {{clear}} {{Wikipedia:Teahouse/Header}} &lt;!-- Questions go here. Please post new questions at the BOTTOM of the page. --&gt; == How to edit page and add citations? == I’ve been trying to add new information on the Wikipedia article regarding Illinois’s Protect Illinois Communities Act, though I don’t know how to edit via the simple and direct way (without the brackets and other characters used for Wikipedia functions). If someone could help me out with adding this information or do it for me, that would be great. [[User:LordOfWalruses|LordOfWalruses]] ([[User talk:LordOfWalruses|talk]]) 01:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :If you {{querylink|qs=title=Protect_Illinois_Communities_Act&amp;veaction=edit|2=use VisualEditor on the Protect Illinois Communities Act article}}, does that allow [[User:LordOfWalruses|you]] to edit it? [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 01:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::That helped with adding the information, though I don’t know how to cite the source. ::(This is the source in case you’re wondering: https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/chicago/news/illinois-assault-weapons-ban-ruled-unconstitutional/ ) [[User:LordOfWalruses|LordOfWalruses]] ([[User talk:LordOfWalruses|talk]]) 03:08, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::Hello, {{u|LordOfWalruses}}. If you want to contribute to Wikipedia, then you need to learn how to create references to reliable sources. It is not that difficult. Please read and study [[WP:REFBEGIN|Referencing for beginners]], and if you have any ''specific'' questions, ask then here at the Teahouse. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 03:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Sure thing; I apologize for any inconvenience or confusion I caused amongst other users. If you could send that link to my talk page so that I can always know how to access it (even when this conversation is removed), that would be great. [[User:LordOfWalruses|LordOfWalruses]] ([[User talk:LordOfWalruses|talk]]) 05:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Sent. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 09:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::: {{Ping|LordOfWalruses}} Please don't apologise. This page exists ''specifically'' for new editors to ask questions like yours. Ask as many as you like. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:40, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::@[[User:LordOfWalruses|LordOfWalruses]], if it helps, you can put links to any handy Wikipedia things you want to be able to find easily on your user page. You can access your user page by clicking on your name either at the end of comments or on the top right of your screen. Your user page link is currently red, which means the page doesn't exist yet, so you'll start off by simply creating the page and adding whatever you like. Mine is full of links I find useful; you're welcome to investigate and use 'edit source' to see the Wikipedia coding I used. That should help you understand how all the linking shenanigans work! Feel free to post on my talk page if you have any questions about how I set it up. Welcome and happy editing! [[User:StartGrammarTime|StartGrammarTime]] ([[User talk:StartGrammarTime|talk]]) 21:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Dear StratGrammarTime, I would like to ask you for help. I use the icon in the upper left corner of the page to link information and quotes from external websites. For example, I am currently trying to create a page about the academic painter [[Stano Bubán]] ::::::Editors keep pointing out to me that I am using the wrong way of linking. I have asked several times in various discussion places to send me a link to generate the correct templates. So far, no one has sent me such a link. My question is: Is there a template generator to link to external websites? I assume that there certainly is one. Please, could you send me a link to generate the correct templates? Thank you. Have a nice day. [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 00:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Hi! Do you use the [[File:MediaWiki 2024-11-26 14-10-19.png|frameless|none]] symbol to cite? Are you using automatic or just using [[Wikipedia:Bare URLs|A bare URL?]] [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 14:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Redirects and Sources == A while ago I was looking at the page for [[Xylocopa aerata]] when I noticed one of the plants it is described feeding at, [[Pultenaea elliptica]], was at the time a redlink. Thinking it would be an interesting project as my first real page, I did some research and discovered it is actually the previous name for [[Pultenaea tuberculata]]. I've already made Pultenaea elliptica a redirect to the correct page. I know this is probably a stupid question, but do I change the link in Xylocopa aerata from the redirect to the correct name, even though that was probably the name used in the source? [[User:PineappleWizard123|PineappleWizard123]] ([[User talk:PineappleWizard123|talk]]) 03:42, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, {{u|PineappleWizard123}}. In my opinion, the best solution is to display the name used in the cited source. If that name redirects to a more current name for the same species, there is nothing wrong with that. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 04:24, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:PineappleWizard123|PineappleWizard123]] An alternative if you didn't want to create the redirect would have been to use a [[WP:PIPED|piped link]]. The syntax &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[[Pultenaea tuberculata|Pultenaea elliptica]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; would give a blue-link direct to the correct article but would appear to the reader in the old name. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|PineappleWizard123}} [[WT:WikiProject Plants]] would be a good place to get subject-specialist advice. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|PineappleWizard123}} I can't seem to find any mention that that ''X. aerata'' feeds on any ''Pultenaea'' species online, as only Wikipedia mirrors report that. I would recommend just changing it to [[Pultenaea tuberculata]] (since the old name is from the 19th century and obsolete) and adding a {{cn}} (&lt;nowiki&gt;{{CN}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) tag to the statement, or locating a source(s), which I can't seem to find. [[User:Memer15151|&lt;span style=&quot;color: darkred&quot;&gt;User&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color: darkgreen&quot;&gt;Memer&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:Memer15151|&lt;span style=&quot;color: maroon&quot;&gt;chat&lt;/span&gt;]]) [[Special:Contributions/Memer15151|&lt;span style=&quot;color: darkgreen&quot;&gt;Tribs&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:42, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Something I think deserves a page. . . == There's a fantastic little game called ''Smile For Me'', developed by ''LimboLane''. I bet you're wondering &quot;Hey, if you want this to have a page so badly, why not do it yourself!?&quot; I gladly would, but I am severely inexperienced. As you may not know, I have only been on Wikipedia as an editor for less than a week. I just wanted to bring this fantastic little game to light and hope some people agree with me. Thanks, Wikipedians! [[User:Shovel Shenanigans|Shovel Shenanigans]] ([[User talk:Shovel Shenanigans|talk]]) 19:11, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :I had a similar situation with the game Redout 2. If there aren't any major publications like IGN or Kotaku running multiple articles on it, then any article made about your game will get nuked when it's checked for notability. [[User:ApteryxRainWing|ApteryxRainWing]] | [[User talk:ApteryxRainWing|Roar at me]] | [[Special:contribs/User:ApteryxRainWing|My contributions]] 19:14, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::Looking at the search results, there are articles about it on both of those sites, as well as Metacritic. So there's hope! [[User:Shovel Shenanigans|Shovel Shenanigans]] ([[User talk:Shovel Shenanigans|talk]]) 21:48, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::I have no experience with using this tool myself, but you can check out [[WP:AfC]] and see if they have any resources to help you develop this article. Don't be afraid to contribute, people are very willing to help! [[User:GracenC|/home/gracen/]] (yell at me [[User talk:GracenC|here]]) 20:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::That definitely helps. I'll probably get around to it eventually when I have more experience :) [[User:Shovel Shenanigans|Shovel Shenanigans]] ([[User talk:Shovel Shenanigans|talk]]) 21:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:GracenC|GracenC]], I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;tool&quot;? AfC isn't a tool, it's a process that editors who cannot create articles in mainspace can use to create articles. Experienced editors review the articles and accept or decline them based on whether they meet some basic standards, like [[WP:N]]. I wouldn't suggest that anyone use AfC if they don't have to - if you create an unsuitable article in mainspace, the patrollers from [[WP:NPP]] will notice it and give you suggestions or move it to draft space. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 03:16, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Apologies, that was poor word choice on my part. Also, thanks for the information; I was under the impression it was recommended for ''all'' new editors to go through AfC rather than just publishing to mainspace. [[User:GracenC|/home/gracen/]] (yell at me [[User talk:GracenC|here]]) 03:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Personally, as an AfC reviewer I wouldn't recommend it. If you submit to AfC, you have to wait until a reviewer sees and accepts your article for it to get to mainspace. Sometimes that can be a long wait. Meanwhile, if you create directly in mainspace and your article wouldn't pass AfC, NPP will draftify it (so, you'll end up in the AfC queue in the end anyway), and if it would pass, they'll mark it as patrolled, maybe with some maintenance tags, and you won't have had to wait in the AfC queue. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 03:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I have to disagree with asilvering. I also review AFC articles. And even though I am an experienced editor, I have submitted an article or two to AFC just to get a reviewer's eyes on it to gain suggestions for improvement. NPP is overwhelmed, they do not catch every problem, and a lot of junk that should never have been in main space ends up staying there. ::::::[[WP:DEADLINE|There are no deadlines on Wikipedia]] for stuff like this. If I have to wait 3 months for a draft to be reviewed, so be it, I don't care, I am in no hurry to get my articles published. ::::::Yes, it is recommended for new editors to go through AFC. Bypassing AFC potentially creates needless work for others to clean up after you, if what you created in main space isn't actually ready for publication there. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 04:14, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::@[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]], you're autopatrolled. NPP will miss ''all'' of your articles, because they aren't looking at them. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 04:16, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I wasn't referring to my own articles in the context of NPP. Looking at what I wrote, I can see how it would come across that way. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 05:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} If the above exchange confuses any new Wikipedians: I think it shows an acceptable difference in opinion. If anyone wants yet another, I would've suggested going to [[WP:VG|the Video games WikiProject]], showing them [[WP:three|three]] sources, and asking if the subject seems to satisfy criteria for a standalone article (what Wikipedia calls &quot;[[WP:notability|notability]]&quot;). Especially with the changing landscape of gaming journalism (the and video game industry in general), what sources are [[WP:VG/RS|reliable or not]] may not be obvious. If the answer is &quot;not notable&quot;, then it [[WP:AKON|saves you the effort]] of writing a draft (per Anachronist) or an article (per asilvering). [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 14:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :This definitely clears up the issue for me. All input is greatly appreciated, but thank you for dusting it off! [[User:Shovel Shenanigans|Shovel Shenanigans]] ([[User talk:Shovel Shenanigans|talk]]) 17:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == MA dissertation == Hi, is an MA dissertation with a professor advisor a reliable source ? One is being referenced at [[Nosso Senhor dos Passos Chapel]], regards [[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]] ([[User talk:Atlantic306|talk]]) 20:42, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi @[[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]], usually no. We require the sources to be ''published'', and MA dissertations are rarely published. Doctorate dissertations ''are'' sometimes published, but should be used with care. More info at [[WP:DISSERTATION]]. &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;qcne&lt;/span&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :: Thanks for that advice, i'll ask the article editor to find a replacement reference, regards [[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]] ([[User talk:Atlantic306|talk]]) 21:04, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{U|Qcne}}, I'm not sure I've got the same working definition of {{tqq|published}}. This source may never have been printed off after being added to the university's records, but it is clearly ''publically accessible'', and even has an {{HDL|10183/202436}} and declared licensing (CC-BY-NC-SA). We had a convo about the acceptability of MA dissertations recently at {{slink|Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 58|Allowing Master's theses when not used to dispute more reliable sources}} (May 2024), which I'll not attempt to summarise since I participated. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 11:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Thanks @[[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] - that's really interesting and I guess my knowledge was out of date. &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;qcne&lt;/span&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 14:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Rule of thumb: [[WP:DISSERTATION|no]]. Real answer: [[WP:TIERS|it depends]]. For uncontroversial claims, no reason not to allow it. [[User:Closed Limelike Curves|– Closed Limelike Curves]] ([[User talk:Closed Limelike Curves|talk]]) 22:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Page of painter Stano Bubán == Dear editors, I would like to ask some questions about page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stano_Bub%C3%A1n. How I can generate links to external sources on the Internet in this way?: &lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=THE WALKER |url=https://danubiana.sk/en/vystavy/chodec |access-date=2024-11-21 |website=Danubiana}}&lt;/ref&gt; I use the technique of linking to external sources using the icon on the page bar. Please, could you send me a link to generate a link using your technique? I would also like to ask, why the bar still appears on the page: &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Unreferenced section|date=November 2024}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;? When I added additional external sources confirming my published information. Many links to the cited opening of exhibitions, that Stano Bubán participated in as an exhibitor, are not on the Internet, so I cannot document all. But I used information about exhibitions from public sources. For example, from the source of the Academy of Fine Arts, Bratislava, Slovakia. This source is official. The website of the Academy of Fine Arts contains only verified information. Similarly, the cited study stays do not have Internet links, so they cannot be documented, but Stano Bubán, as a university teacher, had to document all the information I provided on his Webside page and the page of the Academy of Fine Arts, Bratislava, Slovakia. I gathered information about his family from communication with him. Such information about his family (name of mother, sisters, daughters etc. is not available on the internet. Thank you very much for your help....... [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 09:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :I suppressed the coding displaying the maintenance tag, as placing it here tags this page. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|Jozef Heriban}} If information is not in a published [[WP:RS|reliable source]] that can be [[WP:V|verified]], it cannot be on Wikipedia. :Since you are in communication with the subject regarding the article about him, you should declare a [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]]. Articles are typically written without any involvement from, or even the knowledge of, the subject. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:40, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thanks for your answer. But I still don't understand, why the bar &quot;This section does not cite any sources&quot; keeps appearing in the sections Selected exhibitions, Study stays, Awards... I added credible links to realized exhibitions and links to clearly credible sources. Please, can you advise me, what else I should do to remove those bars? ::Regarding information about the family. There are many pages on Wikipedia, mainly of actors, directors, designers, artists, which contain information about their family members. I have not noticed anywhere that this information is questioned and is also not supported by external sources. Please, can you explain me, why this information is questioned in my case? Thank you. Greetings... [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 09:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Jozef Heriban}} It's being questioned because it was pointed out to us. As this is a volunteer project where people do what they can when they can, we can only address what we know about. It is possible for inappropriate content to get by us, even for years. Inappropriate content existing on one article does not mean that it can exist on another(see [[WP:OSE|other stuff exists]]). If you know of other articles with improperly sourced information, please point those out so we can take action. We need the help. :::You added some sources, but many are still unsourced. I'm actually skeptical the article should list his entire work history at all- but if its going to, it needs to be sourced. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 10:12, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::Hello, @[[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]]: to reply to your specific question: tags such as {{tl|unsourced section}} are not automatic: they are applied by an editor, and removed by an editor. Since those sections now have some citations, I have replaced {{tl|unsourced section}} with {{tl|more citations needed section}}. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 10:26, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Dear ColinFine, I would like to ask you for help. I use the icon in the upper left corner of the page to link information and quotes from external websites. For example, I am currently trying to create a page about the academic painter [[Stano Bubán]] ::::Your colleagues keep pointing out to me that I am using the wrong way of linking. I have asked several times in various places intended for discussion of your colleagues to send me a link to generate the correct templates. So far, no one has sent me such a link. My question is: Is there a template generator that I can use when creating pages on Wikipedia to link to external websites? I assume that there certainly is one. Please, could you send me a link to generate the correct templates? Thank you. Have a nice evening. [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 23:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::@[[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] You seem to be using the {{tl|cite web}} template correctly judging by the example you used. There is a really useful tool called citer at [https://citer.toolforge.org/ this toolforge link]. It can take URL or various other inputs and generate a pretty good citation to use as a footnote in an article. Sometimes you need to tweak the output a bit but it speeds things up. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Dear Michael, thank you very much for your support. I struggled a lot until I managed to get a link to generate templates. So I'm posting the link here, so that others don't have to read the criticism on their pages about how they can't link to external sources correctly. Template generator link: https://citer.toolforge.org/ [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 19:13, 24 November 2024 (UTC) {{reflist-talk}} == Re-submitting an Article == Hi guys, I recently submitted an article on the &quot;Worldview International Foundation&quot; which got rejected due to lack of quality references. I have adjusted the article according to my knowledge. I was thinking of resubmitting the article but I am not sure if it will be completely scrapped if it gets rejected again. I was wondering if another senior editor can see that and let me know if anything is wrong. Or whether I should simply re-submit and wait for evaluation? Thanks in advance! [[User:EditorSenpai|EditorSenpai]] ([[User talk:EditorSenpai|talk]]) 09:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :The best way to get feedback is to resubmit the draft. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you! I appreciate the comment. I think I will submit the draft and see. [[User:EditorSenpai|EditorSenpai]] ([[User talk:EditorSenpai|talk]]) 20:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :The only secondary source I see giving significant coverage of the subject is &quot;Global Issues&quot;, which is clearly not reliable. Other sources do not mention the subject or do so briefly. &lt;span style=&quot;border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F&quot;&gt;[[User:Remsense|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;'''Remsense'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;‥&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;[[User talk:Remsense|&lt;span lang=&quot;zh&quot; style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;'''论'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::FYI - [[Draft:Worldview International Foundation]] was Declined, which is less severe than Rejected. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 15:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yes and I have adjusted accordingly. :::I have decided to resubmit the article again and see whether it has merit or further issues to fix. :::It is the first article I am writing on Wikipedia and I really appreciate all the help and guidance! [[User:EditorSenpai|EditorSenpai]] ([[User talk:EditorSenpai|talk]]) 21:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you for your feedback! ::I do have a genuine concern as the article I am working on is about is a well-established NGO that is working towards mangrove restoration but has rarely been studied within scholarly articles. ::Please let me know if there are any specific recommendations you would suggest for me to overcome this issue. [[User:EditorSenpai|EditorSenpai]] ([[User talk:EditorSenpai|talk]]) 21:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Content deliverer/s == When a source's URL is an article at JSTOR uploaded to the Internet Archive should &quot;[[JSTOR]] via the [[Internet Archive]]&quot; be in the Content deliverer field (leading to &quot;via [[JSTOR]] via the [[Internet Archive]]&quot; in the citation) or would it be better only to enter [[Internet Archive]] in the field and mention [[JSTOR]] in a postscript note? [[User:Mcljlm|Mcljlm]] ([[User talk:Mcljlm|talk]]) 11:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello Mcljlm. Just mentioning the Internet Archive should be fine. [[User:TheWikipede|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family: monospace; color: blue; text-shadow: 0px 0px 10px lightblue;&quot;&gt;TheWikipede&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:TheWikipede|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family: monospace; color: blue;&quot;&gt;''talk''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Reverting a long-time user's revision == Hello, and sorry for taking up your time! I haven't been in Wikipedia for long and my revisions had only been somewhat minor (mostly fixing grammars and deleting words that are inaccurate to the sources). I found that the [[Majapahit]] article which I had been watching was edited in a way that I believe is mostly damaging by a long-time user. I reverted their revisions but they reverted it back. How should I respond to this? The safest way that I can think of is to edit the current article to be more similar to the previous version, but that will include most things except the infobox. Should I just revert everything again, especially considering that I'm new? And is there a way to prevent said user (and others) from changing the article in a similar manner? Thank you. [[User:Miserableed|Miserableed]] ([[User talk:Miserableed|talk]]) 13:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :I'd recommend reading (or at least skimming) [[WP:EDITWAR]] before deciding to get into a conflict with a more experienced editor. I'd also recommend asking them why they chose to revert your edits by either starting a new topic on their user talk page, or by mentioning them on the article's talk page (you can do this by linking to their user page). As more general advice (not saying you did this here), don't take it as an attack when someone reverts your edits. It's just them saying that they disagree, and you can always try to convince them otherwise (see [[WP:GOODFAITH]]). [[User:GracenC|/home/gracen/]] (yell at me [[User talk:GracenC|here]]) 20:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Miserableed}} Further to the correct answer above, the process to follow is described at [[WP:DR]]. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Reliable references == Hi, My article was rejected due to a lack of reliable references. As my topic is somewhat obscure (a sculpture), the references are equally obscure but I tried hard to find real references. Any thoughts? [[Draft:Chrinitoid]]. [[User:Tompayne36|Tompayne36]] ([[User talk:Tompayne36|talk]]) 15:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :It's not so much that the references are obscure as much as the references are all closely connected to RIP or Rickey themselves. It seems appropriate where it is in Rickey's article, but I think I'd have to agree that the sourcing isn't sufficient to show the sculpture should have an article of its own. I wonder if you'd find more extensive, independent coverage from the Troy Record or another paper in the Capital District. [[User:CoffeeCrumbs|CoffeeCrumbs]] ([[User talk:CoffeeCrumbs|talk]]) 16:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Tompayne36}} For a subject like that you might need to refer to contemporary newspaper sources. When you have been here a while longer, you can use [[WP:LIBRARY]] to access some archives that are otherwise paywalled. Perhaps the university had its own publication, or a student paper? You could contact them directly. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::@pigsonthewing Hi. I referenced the RPI Alumni Magazine. It was an article I wrote, but they did publish it. There was also a reference in the campus humor magazine and the unofficial “Not the Rensselaer Handbook” [[User:Tompayne36|Tompayne36]] ([[User talk:Tompayne36|talk]]) 21:13, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::It was also referenced in the student newspaper (The Polytechnic)https://www.tumblr.com/witnessmoderations/85215827917/in-search-of-the-chrinitoid [[User:Tompayne36|Tompayne36]] ([[User talk:Tompayne36|talk]]) 21:18, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Fan Zhibo == [[:ru:Jibo]] Hello. Please help me create a Wikipedia page for Fan Zhibo in English. [[User:TanyaGroot|TanyaGroot]] ([[User talk:TanyaGroot|talk]]) 15:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:TanyaGroot|TanyaGroot]], and welcome to the Teahouse. The Teahouse is not really a place to look for collaborators. Have you read [[WP:Translation|Translation]]? [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 20:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Fonts and citations == # first, is there a settings thing to change the font into something [[Sans-serif#Geometric|Geometric]]? because it's easier to read then Arial for me # is there a way to hide citations? it was annoying when I first started Wikipedia, I never use them, and it's just annoying when copy-pasting or printing [[User:Saarabout|Saarabout]] ([[User talk:Saarabout|talk]]) 22:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :To answer your first question, I believe that Wikipedia uses the default font that your browser does, so you can just change it there. I don't know about the second question, though. [[User:GracenC|/home/gracen/]] (yell at me [[User talk:GracenC|here]]) 00:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello [[User:Saarabout|Saarabout]], there is a pretty straightforward way to remove the footnotes from copied text. Do you use a text editor with [[regular expression]]s? If so, you can replace &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;\[\d*\]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; with nothing and it will scrub the footnotes from the article. I do this sometimes to use spelling/grammar checkers. There are some online tools that you can use for this as well.[https://coding.tools/regex-replace][https://regex101.com/r/kUW4Ug/1] This is an [https://rextester.com/replace/UXKAM97759 example using a random paragraph] from ''[[Night of the Living Dead]]''. :Hiding the footnotes across the site is more awkward. There isn't a straightforward way to do it, both because most editors would not want to hide the citations and because not all footnotes are made the same way. To hide nearly all footnotes go to [[Special:MyPage/common.css]], create the page, copy just this line &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;sup.reference {display:none;}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; and save the page. To turn the footnotes back on, go to [[Special:MyPage/common.css]], click edit, and delete or comment out that line. I realize that's a weird solution, [[User:Rjjiii|&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps;&quot;&gt;Rjj&lt;sup&gt;iii&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:Rjjiii|talk]]) 02:42, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Unsure as to whether article is actually been submitted for review. == I’ve completed a draft, and seemingly published it, but i can’t find it in the list of articles submitted for review. Have i submitted correctly? [[Draft:Kieran Howe]] [[User:MyNameIsGeorgeHale|MyNameIsGeorgeHale]] ([[User talk:MyNameIsGeorgeHale|talk]]) 01:11, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Yes, you successfully submitted it. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 01:25, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::And it has been declined, reasons given by the reviewer and Comments. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 23:28, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Submitting a bio == I need to get a bio of my pastor on Wikipedia, but I don't really have a way to footnote anything. He has books with bios on the back cover and he has an outdated bio on his own website. I made a simple bio on Wikimedia Commons site for Dr. Larry Ollison, and that's about all I really need on Wikipedia. I need it because on the streaming site for LarryOllisonRadio.com, when you click on Larry's name, the software searches for that name on Wikipedia. Right now it finds Barry White who has a son, with the name Ollison. Can anyone here help me create this bio on the main site? Jim McDermott [[User:Jimmcdcmm|Jimmcdcmm]] ([[User talk:Jimmcdcmm|talk]]) 01:47, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :I'm afraid &quot;I need it&quot; is not a real reason for anyone to create an article. What is needed is evidence of [[WP:N|notability]] via [[WP:SIGCOV|significant coverage]] from [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::Follow up question: would this website be a reliable source? https://www.faithandflame.com/collections/harrison-house-books/products/hidden-mysteries-and-the-bible-secrets-revealed-aliens-ufos-giants-time-travel-multiverse-ai-other-unexplained-phenomena-paperback-october-1-2024. There are quotes there by other authors about Dr. Ollison and a picture of his book with a bio on the book. [[User:Jimmcdcmm|Jimmcdcmm]] ([[User talk:Jimmcdcmm|talk]]) 03:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::A &quot;buy it here&quot; page? No. An article about a person needs to cite sources that provide in-depth coverage ''about'' that person. See [[Wikipedia:Golden Rule]] for the kinds of sources required. That one you cited doesn't meet the criteria, because none of the information there is independent of the author or the book, and none of it constitutes &quot;coverage&quot;. Even if all you could find were book reviews, that suggests that the book may be notable, but not the author. :::Also, what you're asking is basically to use Wikipedia as a publicity platform (or a way to fix technical problems you are having with publicity that isn't a problem for Wikipedia), and that sort of purpose is prohibited. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 04:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Jimmcdcmm}} If your pastor is pressuring you to do this, you can refer him to [[WP:BOSS]]. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :If the image is free, then it can exist on commons and does not need to be on enwiki also. If it is non-free, it is forbidden to be on commons and also does not seem to satisfy the limited cases where non-free content is allowed on enwiki. The licensing and origin really needs to be clarified, and usually only the photographer (or someone else specified by a contract the photographer has) can make a valid license release. Please see [[Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials]] for information about how to figure out who owns the license and how they can release it for use. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 01:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Hasn't been said, but Teahouse Hosts are here to advise, not to co-author. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 20:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Doubt == Hello, could someone please tell me that if there is a politician with name &quot;example politician&quot; and his page is already available but there is one more politician from another constituency who has been elected and his name is also &quot;example politician&quot; than what to do? [[User:AstuteFlicker|AstuteFlicker]] ([[User talk:AstuteFlicker|talk]]) 01:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :I'm assuming this is not meant to be taken literally and you mean there might be a &quot;John Smith&quot; elected in Florida and another in England, or whatever? [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation]] would be the answer. If there are just two notable persons by the same name we would usually add qualifiers to the page titles and [[WP:HATNOTE|HATNOTE]]s at the top of both pages. If there are several we would create a disambiguation page listing them all. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:12, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::I far as I know there are just two people because one already had a page the second one has recently been elected. If you don't mind once I create the page I'll let you know and if you could just see that part it would be very helpful for me because I don't have much idea of it. But for that first, I need to have a title for it because both the titles are same and the page cannot be created because it already has a article with that name '''what should the name be given'''? [[User:AstuteFlicker|AstuteFlicker]] ([[User talk:AstuteFlicker|talk]]) 02:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::For the second article, it can simply be &quot;John Smith (another constituency)&quot;. And for the first article that is already existing, if it has been the only article with that title, we can apply a hatnote to direct readers to the new article for a start per [[WP:TWODAB]]. Why not create the article first and let us help you evaluate which title the article(s) should reside at? [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 03:05, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@{{u|Robertsky}} I have created [[Ashok Kumar Singh (Ramgarh)]] there is one more page named [[Ashok Kumar Singh]] please do the needful. Also, is the name fine? If not, please feel free to move it.. [[User:AstuteFlicker|AstuteFlicker]] ([[User talk:AstuteFlicker|talk]]) 05:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::[[Ashok Kumar Singh]] is now a disambiguation page that links to both articles. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 05:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{u|AstuteFlicker}}, the article title seems to be fine but the article itself tells us nothing about this person other than their name, the legislative office they hold, and their political party affiliation. The article is more like a directory or database listing than an encyclopedia article. When and where was he born? What is his educational background? Where did he work before becoming a politician? What are his unique political positions and legislative plans? Was his electoral victory tough or easy? Does he have other leadership roles in his community or his political party? Is he married? Does he have children? And so on. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 05:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::@[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] Thank you very much for your valuable attention to this article. The articles which I am creating right know are all stubs about the MLAs who had been elected very recently. The elected MLAs are mostly new and that is the reason why, much information about them ain't available right know. With time, when more sources about them will be published I will make sure to add or update it. Meanwhile, the other editors can also contribute to it if they wish to. [[User:AstuteFlicker|AstuteFlicker]] ([[User talk:AstuteFlicker|talk]]) 05:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::{{u|AstuteFlicker}}, nothing that you have done is contrary to policy but I happen to believe quite firmly that it is a far greater service to the encyclopedia to create five well-referenced, informative start class articles than 50 microstubs. People can easily consult legislative directories to get this basic database information. Encyclopedia articles should be much more informative. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 05:57, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::@[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] unfortunately, this is a by-product of the [[WP:NPOL]]. One can only hope that the article will expand correspondingly when more details about the elected politician are released. [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 14:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Thanks @[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] for following up on this. [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 14:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Article Edit Assist == Hey there! I created an article on Imagine Dragons song, Take Me To The Beach. It’s my first article, so I’d appreciate some feedback/editing if that’s ok? [[Draft:Take Me To The Beach (Imagine Dragons song)]] [[User:ImagineDragonsFan101|ImagineDragonsFan101]] ([[User talk:ImagineDragonsFan101|talk]]) 01:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Your draft is almopst certainly going to be declined for lacking [[WP:RS|relaible sources]] that include [[WP:SIGCOV|significant coverage]] of the song. YouTube is not a reliable source. Apple Music is not a reliable source. And so on. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:07, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Local wiki upload == I am trying to upload an image (the first one on the left of the page) from https://www.gpchicago.com/architecture/paramount/ under [[Wikipedia:Non-free content|fair use]] to use in [[Paramount Tower (Nashville)]]. Wikimedia Commons says [[Commons:Fair use|fair use images should be uploaded to a local wiki]] (which should be English Wikipedia?) I believe the image fits all criteria and there are no free replacements as it is a render of a building that has only just started construction. So how do I upload it to English Wikipedia specifically? [[User:King airaglub|King airaglub]] ([[User talk:King airaglub|talk]]) 03:14, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, {{u|King airaglub}}. That image appears to be a copyrighted [[architectural rendering]] of a future building. The opportunity for a free replacement is obvious: wait until construction is complete and take a photo of the actual building. Or even take and freely license a photo of the half completed building under construction or the jobsite consisting of a hole in the ground with earth moving equipment around it. I fail to see how non-free use of this copyrighted rendering image complies with the relevant policy language at [[WP:NFCI|Non-free content - images]]. We do not need to be in a rush to have an image of this building. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 04:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::To me that is not a good solution. For one, there are many other articles of proposed buildings that have renderings shown under fair use in the same manner as what I am trying to do, such as [[4/C]], [[Legends Tower]], and [[One Bayfront Plaza]]. Besides, a picture of an empty construction hole would not add encyclopedic value. [[User:King airaglub|King airaglub]] ([[User talk:King airaglub|talk]]) 14:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == I would like to open a page with information about myself and my career, can anyone help? == I would like to open a page with information about myself and my career, can anyone help? [[User:Dragan Mihailovic|Dragan Mihailovic]] ([[User talk:Dragan Mihailovic|talk]]) 05:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, {{u|Dragan Mihailovic}}. I have got to tell you that this is almost certainly a really bad idea that leads to failure and time wasting and bad feelings about 99.9% of the time. Read [[WP:AUTOBIOGRAPHY]] for a much more detailed explanation. Your time would be better spent telling the world about you on various social media platforms rather than in an encyclopedia. Self promotion is forbidden on Wikipedia but welcomed and encouraged elsewhere. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 05:44, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::thank you @[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]], very kind of you!! [[User:Dragan Mihailovic|Dragan Mihailovic]] ([[User talk:Dragan Mihailovic|talk]]) 06:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == wikipidia search == what is the difference between &quot;disambiguation&quot; and &quot;topics refered to by the same term&quot;? [[User:YisroelB501|YisroelB501]] ([[User talk:YisroelB501|talk]]) 07:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC) : {{u|YisroelB501}} Can you please supply a link to the page with the text that is confusing you, so we can see the context of your question? [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 08:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ping|YisroelB501}} Do you refer to search suggestions like below while you are typing in the search box? &lt;pre&gt;Titanic (disambiguation) Topics referred to by the same term &lt;/pre&gt; :The first line gives the full page name &quot;[[Titanic (disambiguation)]]&quot;. The second line gives a [[Wikipedia:Short description]] of the page. For disambiguation pages the short description &quot;Topics referred to by the same term&quot; is automatically added by {{tl|Disambiguation}}. It's possible to override it but we rarely do that. Short descriptions are shown together with the page name so there is no need to repeat &quot;Titanic&quot;. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 10:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :If there is no [[WP:PTOPIC|primary topic]] then a disambiguation page doesn't get &quot;(disambiguation)&quot; in the page name but still gets the short description &quot;Topics referred to by the same term&quot;, e.g. [[Stay]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 10:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == When will the newly created page be searchable on Google? == On Wednesday, I created a page for academic painter Stano Bubán on the English Wikipedia [[Stano Bubán]]. I want to ask when this page will be searchable via Google? It can be searched on Wikipedia, but it is not searchable via Google yet. Thank you for your answer. [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 08:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Your article will be patrolled first and after review, it takes about a week before your article is ranked on goggle [[User:Tesleemah|Tesleemah]] ([[User talk:Tesleemah|talk]]) 08:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::I'm fairly sure it can sometimes take more than a week. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] If the [[WP:NPP|new page patrol]] don't get to it, and they are heavily backlogged, it will become indexable by search engines after 90 days. I find that, once patrolled, indexing happens very quickly, especially if anyone adds an edit. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 15:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Dear Turnbull, thank you very much for your reply... have a nice day... [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 15:51, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::Dear Tesleemah, thank you very much for your reply... have a nice day... [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 15:52, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::The article [[Stano Bubán]] looks like it is in good condition, but there are two problems. 1. there are no links to it from anywhere else on the website, and 2. it does not seem clear that you own the copyright to the photos of him, particularly his first photo that looks like it was professionally done and the painting he did at the end of the page. [[User:Reconrabbit|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6BAD2D&quot;&gt;Recon&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Reconrabbit|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#2F3833&quot;&gt;rabbit&lt;/span&gt;]] 16:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC) *{{re|Jozef Heriban}} Hi. Google, and Wikipedia are two different websites. An article becomes eligible for being indexed by Google (or any other search engines) after it is &quot;reviewed&quot; here. The time taken to be indexed after the review, is totally up to that particular search engine. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 17:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == About an Edit by the User == States in India do not have flags or banners, they have their emblems or seals, most containing the Emblem of India. In the Page of [[Government of Punjab, India]], Due to no evidence, I deleted the image claiming to be the banner of the State Government. I 've never seen it in use in any of the Offices, Website, Notifications, Events, Buildings of the Government (I've been to many). The user is the uploader of the said file, he was the one who first added it, and he did the same again. What should be done? [[User:VeritasVanguard|VeritasVanguard]] ''&quot;Seeking truth in every edit&quot;'' 14:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi! I suggest starting a discussion with the user on the article's talk page to see if they can provide a reliable source that explicitly supports the claim that the image in question is the state's banner. See [[WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS]] and [[WP:original research]]. [[User:Perception312|Perception312]] ([[User talk:Perception312|talk]]) 15:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC) === Use of a banner in an Infobox === Recently i added a Government banner in the infobox of the [[Government of Punjab, India]], but now an user keep deleting it citing that Indian states don't use banners but in reality Indian state governments use banners to represent the state government. We have a whole article on Wikipedia on this topic ([[List of Indian state flags#Banners of the states and union territories|List of Indian state flags]]), I don't want to start an editing war, what i can do now? [[User:Shubhdeep Sandhu|Shubhdeep Sandhu]] ([[User talk:Shubhdeep Sandhu|talk]]) 08:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :{{re|Shubhdeep Sandhu}} I've moved a related discussion down and put your question under it. The [[Wikipedia:Teahouse#c-Perception312-20241121150000-VeritasVanguard-20241121141400|above advice]] applies to you, too: {{tq|[start] a discussion with the user on the article's talk page to ... provide a reliable source that explicitly supports the claim that the image in question is the state's banner}}. [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 10:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Since that advice was given, you received {{querylink|qs=diff=1259272200&amp;oldid=1258302727|2=some user talk messages}} on the matter; I've found no discussions at [[Talk:Government of Punjab, India]] or the [[Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics|Noticeboard for India-related topics]]. As of this reply, the edit summary of the [[Special:Diff/1259272160|most recent revert]] says {{tq|Unreliable and irrelevant source}}, so it seems like the source you provided is inadequate. [[List of Indian state flags]] is [[WP:RSPWP|similarly unsuitable]] because anyone can edit it. [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 10:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] I have said , and will state again 'That states in India do not have flags', they have seals/emblems that they use. This is misleading to upload a file namely 'Banner of Punjab' when there is no use by the said government. The user in its Commons File deletion gives 'Indiamart' a selling platform, vexilla-mundi.com &amp; other unknown, Facebook (unreliable) sources. '''[[User:VeritasVanguard|Veritas]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:darkblue;&quot;&gt;Vanguard&lt;/span&gt;''': &lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;''&quot;Seeking truth in every edit&quot;''&lt;/span&gt; 14:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :[[User:Shubhdeep Sandhu|Shubhdeep Sandhu]], I have replied to you on [[Talk:Government of Punjab, India]]. [[User:Jeraxmoira|Jeraxmoira🐉]] ([[User talk:Jeraxmoira|talk]]) 14:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Review == Greetings, Any professional editor able to review and provide suggestions to get my article published? Thanks a million, Annie [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 09:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :[[User:Anniebeau]] Welcome to the Teahouse. I assume you are referring to [[Draft:Dan Yessian]]. The article has been reviewed twice. There are several suggestions at the top of that draft. Is there a specific suggestion that you do not understand?&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]] ([[User talk:Shantavira#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Shantavira|contribs]]) 09:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; ::@[[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] I have removed all the external links from the body text, as these are not normally allowed. I also fixed a couple of archive errors and did a bit of tidying up. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 15:16, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Mike, :::I appreciate you! Thank you! :::Andrea [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 15:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::This version is much different than the initial draft. [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 15:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Declined again. There is still a lot of unreferenced content. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 23:32, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I am unsure what is considered &quot;unreferenced&quot; as I ensured each bit of information was noted with a reference. That is why I have about 18 news articles documented. ::::Can anyone please guide me as to what information is considered unreferenced? [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 23:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::@[[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]], you have quite a lot of sentences in the Career section that appear to be unreferenced. If they are in fact all referenced by the next given citation, you may want to think about combing them into paragraphs and/or using [[WP:REFNAME|named references]] so it's clear where the information comes from. Generally, if there's no citation on the end of a sentence, and it's not a part of a longer piece of information, that sentence is likely to be considered unreferenced. [[User:StartGrammarTime|StartGrammarTime]] ([[User talk:StartGrammarTime|talk]]) 02:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Thank you for your time and guidance! [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 11:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Mike, ::::Are you talking about the note on the draft from last week, or do you mean today? [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 01:00, 25 November 2024 (UTC) In the current version, here is some of the unreferenced text: *A 1967 graduate of Wayne State University, Yessian taught speech and English for four years at Detroit's Redford High School. He left education to pursue a music career. *In 1971, Yessian Music opened in a 300-square-foot office, once an old bait shop in Farmington. He called local car dealers hoping to interest them in purchasing a custom jingle to promote their business. *Yessian wrote theme songs for sports organizations including Detroit Pistons, Detroit Red Wings, Detroit Tigers and Los Angeles Dodgers. *In the 1980s, Yessian met songwriter David Barrett (Composer &quot;One Shining Moment&quot;) with whom he composed numerous songs including a collaboration on &quot;I See Wings&quot; a song written for Yessian's documentary and symphonic work &quot;An Armenian Trilogy&quot;. There is more. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 03:37, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :David, :You are absolutely right. I will correct. :Thanks again! [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 11:27, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Wikidata tangle == I've been trying to fix the wikidata linking around [[Tambourin]], but I think it may not be possible. The situation is: * en:Tambourin covers the Provence drum &amp; dance * en:Tabor (instrument) covers the Provence drum and Catalan drum, and a Welsh version, as a superset * fr:Tambourin (sur fût) covers the Provence drum and Catalan drum * fr:Tambourin (danse) covers the dance * fr:Timbal (musique catalane) covers a Catalan version On wikidata: * &quot;tambori&quot; links to en:Tambori and fr:Tambourin (sur fût) * &quot;tambourin&quot; describes the dance; linked to fr:Tambourin (danse) and I've linked to en:Tambourin (danse), a redirect to en:Tambourin * &quot;tambourin (Provencal)&quot; (created by me) describes the drum and links to en:Tambourin * &quot;tabor&quot; links to en:Tabor (instrument) and fr:Timbal (musique catalan) Essentially, both tambori and tambourin (Provencal) need to link to fr:Tambourin (sur fût); tabor may also need to link there but doesn't appear to really have a good target; and both tambourin and tambourin (Provencal) need to link to en:Tambourin, but wikidata only allows one item to link to a given article. As you can see above I've created a redirect to fix one bit, but wikidata tries to stop you from adding these and I'm pretty sure it's not the intended solution. Does wikidata have a way of solving this? [[User:Mrfoogles|Mrfoogles]] ([[User talk:Mrfoogles|talk]]) 16:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Mrfoogles|Mrfoogles]] That sounds like a problem better handled by the experts at Wikidata. There is [[:d:WD:IWC|a place to report interwiki conflicts]]. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Conflict of Interest, New Editor, Already made edits - eek! == I am an associate member of the Society of Graphic Fine Art, and was asked by the committee to update the Wikipedia page. I have made significant changes to the article, which contained inaccurate and inadequate information. Naturally, I believe that I maintained a neutral position, but I am aware that it is not my place to judge this. I need help with this, please! I know that I need to declare this conflict of interest. I located the [[Template:UserboxCOI|UserCOI template]] and I understand that this goes on my user page - but where and how? What do I do about the edited page? I think I need to put a COI declaration on [[Society of Graphic Fine Art]] - again, I'm not sure where or how. Does another, impartial editor review my changes? Or do the changes need to be rescinded? I now know that I should not make any more edits on the Society's page (apart from very minor ones). [[User:AmandaJBates|AmandaJBates]] ([[User talk:AmandaJBates|talk]]) 18:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Don't worry all your edits were reverted as &quot;not an imporvement at all&quot;. In future please request edits with the template {{t|edit COI}}. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 18:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|AmandaJBates}} Your user page is on the one that is (currently) a read link at the end of your comment here. It will go blue when you add some content there. You can also declare your COI in a comment on [[Talk:Society of Graphic Fine Art]] (the discussion page, as opposed to the article itself), which is also where you can request future changes. You may find these pages helpful: [[WP:BOSS]] and [[WP:FAQAS|our FAQ for article subjects]]. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|AmandaJBates}}: just to note that Andy must mean &quot;red link&quot; above, not &quot;read link&quot;. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 21:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::I have no idea why somebody thought it was a good idea to list roughly 150 artists who participated in the organization's 1921 exhibition, referenced to the organization's own 1921 catalogue. Wikipedia articles about an organization should summarize what reliable sources entirely ''independent'' of the organization say about it, with very limited exceptions. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 23:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::My first thought is the fact that so many of the artists who participated in the first exhibition (1921) are subjects of Wikipedia articles reflects on the importance of the organization at its origin, BUT it is possible, nay likely, that these people became Wikipedia-notable for careers that extended long past 1921. So delete the list! [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 23:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The list will be going if I have my way, on account if its irrelevance if nothing else. [[Special:Contributions/80.41.63.175|80.41.63.175]] ([[User talk:80.41.63.175|talk]]) 10:48, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Sorry, that was me.&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:AmandaJBates|AmandaJBates]] ([[User talk:AmandaJBates|talk]]) 10:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Sadly, there is very little available material that doesn't trace back to the Society, one way or another. It's a little bit ... niche, should we say. I take it that mission statements etc are one of your exceptions? ::::&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:AmandaJBates|AmandaJBates]] ([[User talk:AmandaJBates|talk]]) 11:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Addition == if anyone’s watch the 900 days without Annabelle documentary, I feel like Rafael who was the first president of his country also tried very hard to help this case and I think that deserved to be realized in his page! I just don’t know how to write it good..[[Rafael Escuredo]] [[Special:Contributions/66.129.196.190|66.129.196.190]] ([[User talk:66.129.196.190|talk]]) 20:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, IP user. If you have an improvement to suggest to an article, the article's talk page is the best place to make the suggestion. Your suggestion is more likely to be taken seriously if you cite a [[WP:RS|reliable published source]] for any information you wish to add. (I have no idea who Rafael is, or what that documentary is about, but if you want to cite it you need to establish that it was published/aired by somebody with a reputation for editorial control and fact checking). [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 20:44, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :[[Special:Diff/1259388389|Done]]. I can't add much more because a) the ''Heraldo'' piece is [[paywalled]] and the preview doesn't say much more about [[Rafael Escuredo]]'s role and actions in the negotiations for the [[kidnapping of Anabel Segura]] and b) as @[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] said, information needs to be supported by {{tq|somebody with a reputation for editorial control and fact checking}}, and I know nothing about the production of the ''[[900 Days Without Anabel]]'' Netflix docuseries. Cheers, [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 22:03, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :: {{Ping|Rotideypoc41352}} You an request access to paywalled sources at [[WP:RX]]. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 14:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == does a COI still exist if you haven't had contact with someone for 25 years? == I'm thinking about improving the article of someone for whom I worked 25 years ago. Is that still a COI, or is the COI no longer significant, since it was decades ago? Thanks, [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 20:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :I haven't had contact with my dead grandfather for longer than that, and I'd still have a COI. :On the other hand, I'm thinking of the supervisor I had 25 years ago, and if he was clearly notable, I believe I could write a decent neutral article. I think you should be fine, just remember [[WP:NOTMEMORIAL|Wikipedia is not to be used for memorializing]]. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 20:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::You're right, I worded the question in my heading poorly, as some kinds of COIs clearly continue to exist no matter how much time has passed. I'm not going to memorialize him, just try to improve his article a bit, as it's currently a stub. I believe that I can be neutral, but am trying to figure out whether I need to declare a COI and only post edit requests. [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 21:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Base what you write on what others have published, rather on what you know. Then there should be less bias introduced by you. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 00:29, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thanks [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]], I do understand that. And thanks to [[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] as well. [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 00:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{u|FactOrOpinion}}, as I see it, the question of a conflict of interest is not a yes-or-no, black-or-white question in most cases of writing new articles or major expansions of existing articles. Instead, it is a continuum. If an editor is motivated to do the work of finding and evaluating and summarizing the reliable sources about a topic that interests them, then it can be said that they have at least a weak or mild conflict of interest about that topic. I was born and raised in Michigan and have lived in California for over 50 years, and have worked on many articles related to those two states. Back in June, my wife and I had a wonderful ten day visit to Alaska and I have since written and expanded several articles about Alaska. My favorite article that I have written about Alaska is [[Wooden halibut hook]], a topic that I had never heard of six months ago but which fascinated me when I saw them in two museums in Alaska. I think that my conflict of interest is mild even though I took two of the photos in that article. When I was a young man, I was a California mountaineer. As a new editor, I wrote a biography of [[Jules Eichorn]], a climber that I took a two week trip with, along with about 15 other climbers in the late 1970s, and I took the photo in the article of him as an older man, 40 years older than me. And now I am older than he was then. I never heard from him again. I suppose I have a conflict of interest but I think that it is minor, because the article includes none of my personal experiences, and instead summarizes the reliable sources that I cited. :::::A major problem occurs when the conflict goes beyond minor or mild, and interferes with the editor's ability to comply with Wikipedia's core content policies. The relevant language in the [[WP:COI]] policy is {{tpq|While editing Wikipedia, an editor's primary role is to further the interests of the encyclopedia. When an external role or relationship could reasonably be said to undermine that primary role, the editor has a conflict of interest similar to how a judge's primary role as an impartial adjudicator would be undermined if they were married to one of the parties. Any external relationship—personal, religious, political, academic, legal, or financial (including holding a cryptocurrency)—can trigger a COI. How close the relationship needs to be before it becomes a concern on Wikipedia is governed by common sense.}} So, we need to use common sense and recognize that &quot;can trigger a COI&quot; is not equivalent to &quot;always triggers a COI&quot;. If an editor can and does write content that is [[WP:V|verifiable]], that avoids [[WP:OR|original research]], and that complies with the [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]], then common sense tells us that the conflict of interest is mild and manageable. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 07:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]], thank you for that elaboration. I always try to abide by WP's PAGs and seek guidance when I need it. I appreciate how much time you and other experienced editors invest in helping people out. [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 15:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Request for Feedback and Assistance in Revising Draft == Dear Expert Team I hope you're doing well. I am reaching out to request your help in improving my draft article, [[Draft:Sarbjit_Singh_Jhinjher]], in light of the recent feedback provided. The reviewer pointed out that the submission does not adhere to the formal tone expected for an encyclopedia article, and I would greatly appreciate your advice on how to rewrite it in a more neutral and encyclopedic format. Additionally, I have been advised to refer to a broader range of independent, reliable, and published sources to strengthen the article. Could you please assist me by reviewing the draft, particularly focusing on: * Ensuring the tone is formal and neutral * Avoiding any &quot;peacock&quot; terms or language that promotes the subject * Suggesting improvements to improve the overall quality and adherence to Wikipedia's standards Your input would be incredibly valuable in helping me align the draft with Wikipedia's guidelines. Thank you in advance for your time and assistance. I look forward to your feedback. Best regards, [[Special:Contributions/49.156.107.234|49.156.107.234]] ([[User talk:49.156.107.234|talk]]) 20:44, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :A sample (the section &quot;Village Leadership&quot;): {{Blue|From 2013 to 2018, Jhinjer served as}} [Why &quot;served as&quot; rather than plain &quot;was&quot;?] {{Blue|the '''Sarpanch'''}} [There is no reason for this to be boldface.] {{Blue|(village head) of Jhinjran, where he contributed}} [''What'' did he contribute?] {{Blue|to the development of infrastructure}} [Water, electricity, sewerage, phone, wireless LAN, ...?] {{Blue|and improvements}} [What kind(s) of improvements?] {{Blue|in the village’s quality of life.}} And what is the (reliable and disinterested) source for all of this? -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 22:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::A different view: {{tpq|served as}} is correct and normal and commonplace English usage. In American English (at least), it is the standard way to refer to a person holding a political office, a judgeship, or a military rank. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 22:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == How is an articles importance in a Wikiproject debated? == Recently, I added articles such as [[Colossal Biosciences]], [[Arava Institute for Environmental Studies|Arava Institute for Enviromental Studies]], [[Northern white rhinoceros]], [[Ivory-billed woodpecker]], [[Vaquita]], and [[Judean date palm]] to the extinction wikiproject, as the first two are organisations known for de-extinction, the three animals are glaring examples of pure manmade declines and functional extinctions in modern times, and the date tree is the first known successful de-extinction. How do these pages have their importance rated by a Wikiproject? All of them should be given high or mid-importance due to the reasons that I stated above. [[User:Edelgardvonhresvelg|Edelgardvonhresvelg]] ([[User talk:Edelgardvonhresvelg|talk]]) 23:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :I believe we used to have an actual scale for determining the importance, but in my experience it is usually very much &quot;in the eye of the beholder&quot;, in other words, one persons' opinion. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::How do I rate their importance then? I doubt that many are interested in any of the subjects besides Colossal Biosciences due to them constantly making headlines, being endorsed by various governments, educational institutions, and celebrities. Judean date palm is also a plant, which doesn't gain much attention as a de-extinct animal as [[Pyrenean ibex|bucardo]] or soon to be de-extinct such as the [[Revival of the woolly mammoth|woolly mammoth]] or [[thylacine]]. [[User:Edelgardvonhresvelg|Edelgardvonhresvelg]] ([[User talk:Edelgardvonhresvelg|talk]]) 02:48, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Some wikiprojects have specific criteria for rating importance, such as [[WP:DOGS]] on their Assessment page, but no such criteria seem to be established for WikiProject Extinction, other than major extinction events are &quot;top&quot; importance. I would rate the importance of the mentioned articles based on how much literature on the subject appears to exist at a glance, or as Just Step Sideways stated above, however important you believe them to be. If it ends up being controversial, then the resulting discussion can start to establish what each level of importance should be applied to. [[User:Reconrabbit|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6BAD2D&quot;&gt;Recon&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Reconrabbit|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#2F3833&quot;&gt;rabbit&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::How do I give the articles importance on the Wikiproject? I doubt that the articles would be controversial for mid to high imporance. [[User:Edelgardvonhresvelg|Edelgardvonhresvelg]] ([[User talk:Edelgardvonhresvelg|talk]]) 16:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC) {| class = &quot;wikitable&quot; style = &quot;float:right; margin-left:15px&quot; |- |'''Need'''||The article is of priority or importance, regardless of its quality |- |{{Top-Class}}||Subject is a must-have for a print encyclopedia |- |{{High-Class}}||Subject contributes a depth of knowledge |- |{{Mid-Class}}||Subject fills in more minor details |- |{{Low-Class}}||Subject is mainly of specialist interest. |- |{{Bottom-Class}}||(Optional) Subject has no real significance to the project. |- |align=center|'''No'''||(Optional) Subject is a disambiguation or redirect page, residing in article space. |} I foiund this old thing, it's probably not binding on anyone but gives some idea of how it is supposed to work. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :I will add that most readers or editors do not bother looking at the importance. So it is not worthwhile to get too stressed about the rating. For top or high importance, it may reault in the article being selected in a subset publication for some purpose. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 01:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Unfortunately the table is of little help. What are the criteria for &quot;must-have&quot;, &quot;minor&quot;, etc? Importance could be defined in terms of number of accesses -- via which, of course, [[Taylor Swift]] would be of vastly more importance than, say, [[Universe]]. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 01:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Draft:Prince and Family == Hi, Would you please approve this page [[Draft:Prince and Family]]. Prince and Family is upcoming malayalam film. Thank you. [[User:FrancisMathew2255|FrancisMathew2255]] ([[User talk:FrancisMathew2255|talk]]) 09:43, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:FrancisMathew2255|FrancisMathew2255]] the draft is currently pending review. Please be patient, as there are hundreds of other drafts in the queue. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 09:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Sure. ::Thank you for your response. [[User:FrancisMathew2255|FrancisMathew2255]] ([[User talk:FrancisMathew2255|talk]]) 10:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Help with page publication == Hello, Can someone please help me with the following page which was declined twice? Italian Dopolavoro Ferroviario (DLF) [[Draft:Italian Dopolavoro Ferroviario]] Thank you, Simone [[User:Smnczz|Smnczz]] ([[User talk:Smnczz|talk]]) 10:44, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:Smnczz|Smnczz]], and welcome to the Teahouse. Please read the links in the decline notice. In summary: your citations are not properly formatted (bare URL's) which makes them hard to evaluate (see [[WP:REFB]]). But &quot;Gazzetta Officiale&quot; is almost certainly a [[WP:primary source|primary source]], and does not contribute to establishing [[WP:notability|notability]]. You need most of your citations to meet the triple criteria in [[WP:42]]. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 11:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Can Chatgpt/similar GPT be fused with Wikipedia? Will help in solving instant doubts == I am an active user of Wikipedia and this question recently struck my mind. I wanted to convey this idea to Wikipedia community to bring up a creative update. Good work folk! Keep it up! [[Special:Contributions/117.250.64.129|117.250.64.129]] ([[User talk:117.250.64.129|talk]]) 10:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, IP user. Generally, no. See [[WP:CHATGPT]] for more detail. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 11:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :If the community was interested in having ChatGPT write Wikipedia, then the community would have likely already made bots that do so. We are interested in the sum of human knowledge, not the sum of what knowledge LLMs predict humans to possess. [[User:CoffeeCrumbs|CoffeeCrumbs]] ([[User talk:CoffeeCrumbs|talk]]) 12:39, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Note that AI is notoriously unreliable. They make stuff up. See [[Hallucination (artificial intelligence)]]. [[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]]|[[User talk:Shantavira|&lt;sup&gt;feed me&lt;/sup&gt;]] 14:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::I didn't understand your question exactly, but ChatGPT has entire Wikipedia (only mainspace) in its datasets. It also may have other sections/namespaces in its datasets. Gemini accesses Wikipedia in real-time. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 16:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Academic Notability == Before I ([[User:RomanVilgut]]) post my question, I would like to be transparent about my background. I am a communications officer at the University of Graz, the second largest university in Austria with over 400 years of academic history (~28,000 students, ~3,200 academic staff including teaching). My role is not primarily editorial, it is not my main job to edit Wikipedia. However, now that I have a user, I have been asked several times to help with Wikipedia. I have therefore marked myself as a 'paid editor' in order to demonstrate my commitment to maintaining the highest standards of transparency within the Wiki community. One of our professors in the field of nano-robotics and nano-chemistry has requested my assistance in translating his Wikipedia page on the German Wikipedia ([[:de:Leonhard Grill]]) to the English Wikipedia. He is a full professor with an impressive publication record in top-tier scientific journals, including Nature and Science. He has also received numerous accolades, particularly the ERC Advanced Grant, the most prestigious grant in the European Union. Upon reviewing the notability criteria for the English Wikipedia ([[Wikipedia:Notability (academics)]]), I came to the conclusion that Criteria 1 a, d, e and Criteria 5 a, b, c appeared to be met. I therefore proceeded to create the page on the English Wikipedia [[Leonhard Grill]]. Some days later, a user added a maintenance template to the page, offering constructive feedback on the notability and citations. I added some important citations and initiated a dialogue with the user on the talk page, [[Talk:Leonhard Grill]]. The user set the bar quite high in terms of notability and told me about his extensive experience in reviewing academic pages. I then asked which criteria he felt had not been met, and the response I received made me a little cautious. I then checked the user page, where I discovered that he had revealed his true identity (which I also did). I believe he is a researcher in nano-robotics, emeritus. It would seem that he is engaged in the same scientific field as Leonhard Grill. I am also somewhat sceptical because when I look at the pages of faculty members at his university, I notice that those very high standards he is using are not always met. I feel he may be applying different standards. However, I felt that users who are not familiar with me might perceive a potential conflict of interest on my part (which I personally do not see), and so I decided to step away from the discussion. I would therefore be grateful if the wider Wikipedia community could take a look at the page and the talk. I would be grateful for any support from experienced wiki users who might conclude that the notability is high enough. I would also appreciate any tips and tricks they could share, as well as guidance on which sources should be added. We already have plenty of sources, but I would prefer not to overwhelm the reference page. But if experienced wiki users conclude that the notability is not high enough, I will respect their decision and not challenge the deletion of the page. &lt;nowiki&gt;*&lt;/nowiki&gt;Disclaimer: Since I am not a native english speaker, I used the DeepL Write to improve this text* [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 11:15, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :What is lacking are references to what people have published about him. In English Wikipedia, describing his research, with references to his sci poblications, adds nothing to establishing Wikipedia-notability. OK to list minor awards, but again, not estabilshing notability. Delete the Weblinks section for same reason. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 11:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you very much. So to conclude for me. It makes no sence to cite all his papers, that proof in what groups he worked? Cited should be works, that cite his work? ::What still puzzles me: How can a habilitation paper on the FU Berlin be no proof for habilitation (plus the fact, that he is a faculty member - I found the official journal of his appointment and cited it)? What other proof would be acceptable, a scan of the document? [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 12:46, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::2nd Question. For undergrad and Phd there is a &quot;citation needed&quot;. Both Papers are avaiable as hard copy in the library of the university of Graz. Is the link to the entry in the library-catalogue accepted as citation? [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 12:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] Regarding [[WP:NACADEMIC|notability]], we only require ''one'' of the listed criteria to be met. In my opinion, his award of the [[Feynman Prize in Nanotechnology]] is sufficient to pass criterion #2. The article can cite self-published sources (e.g. your website) for non-controversial material: see the guidance at [[WP:ABOUTSELF]] and of course can give a limited account of Grill's research. However, the biography should mainly cover his background, education and personal life. The article should not aim to be a cv but can mention highly cited papers, for example. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::As it has been mentioned that the article will be, at least partly, be translated from an article on DE-Wikipedia, [[Help:Translation]] might be of some interest...attribution etc. [[User:Lectonar|Lectonar]] ([[User talk:Lectonar|talk]]) 13:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::Per comment from Mike Turnbull, common to have a section titled Selected works, to include perhaps 5-7 publications. For academics, the university they work at often has a biographical sketch for faculty members, with information such as education; that would serve as a citation. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 17:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::I will look in the Translation-Help and try to make a selected works - section. As of citation I can use this [https://nano-lab.uni-graz.at/en/about-us/leonhard-grill/ Leonhard Grill, Professor an der Universität Graz - nano-lab.uni-graz.at] - and as mentioned, we have his graduation-papers in our library-catalogue (in hardcopy, as it was customary in the 1990ies) [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 07:53, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Tank you! We never planned a cv, just a short biography with background [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 07:51, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Reliable sources for a topic in software development == It's extremely hard if not impossible to find any source other than primary sources or a topic in software development. So I added a few sources that are not &quot;reliable&quot; just to satisfy secondary sources rule. What exactly counts as a reliable source and is it possible to make a secondary source rule exception for topics are related to software development since an unbiased view is less of concern due to rational nature of software development compared to things like politics and past events. Here is my draft [[Draft:Kestrel Web Server]] [[Special:Contributions/78.190.51.205|78.190.51.205]] ([[User talk:78.190.51.205|talk]]) 14:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. Wikipedia isn't a place to just tell about something- it's a place to summarize what independent [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] with significant coverage have chosen on their own to say about something, showing how it meets the [[WP:N|special Wikipedia definition of notability]]. If a topic isn't written about by independent reliable sources, it can't be on Wikipedia. There are other websites with less stringent requirements where people can just tell about something. :You can certainly work to obtain [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] for a carve-out in policy for software development, but it would be a long, difficult process- and I don't think it would work, as it would lead to every topic seeking a carve-out, rendering policies meaningless. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 14:27, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::But this policy has been created to reduce amount of bias right? ::While I do agree, I think software development should get a exception due to sometimes only source being the project itself. ::And when I try to seek for &quot;secondary&quot; sources they are not reliable, would a random blog post be reliable? I bet It's not. [[Special:Contributions/78.190.51.205|78.190.51.205]] ([[User talk:78.190.51.205|talk]]) 14:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::No. [[Wikipedia:GOLDENRULE]] is fundamental to how (and why) Wikipedia works. [[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]]|[[User talk:Shantavira|&lt;sup&gt;feed me&lt;/sup&gt;]] 14:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == How to add the cookies/brownies/tea/cofee/others == Hi all, I remember seeing the proper syntax and usage for all of the mentioned items above, but sometimes struggle remembering things. I would greatly appreciate any help! 15:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Luke Elaine Burke|Luke Elaine Burke]] ([[User talk:Luke Elaine Burke|talk]]) 15:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Luke Elaine Burke|Luke Elaine Burke]] Welcome to the Teahouse. These things are most easily added via templates. Take a look at {{tl|Cookies}} and you can probably guess the others. They are all in [[:Category:Food WikiLove templates]]. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 15:21, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you Micheal, have a great day! ::15:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Luke Elaine Burke|Luke Elaine Burke]] ([[User talk:Luke Elaine Burke|talk]]) 15:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Luke Elaine Burke}}Welcome to the teahouse. These are WikiLoves, and can be seen with a symbol of a heart on user talk pages (might change depending on your theme set). Thanks, [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 15:43, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you, your photography is incredible! ::[[User:Luke Elaine Burke|Luke Elaine Burke]] ([[User talk:Luke Elaine Burke|talk]]) 15:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == What are user talk pages really for? == I know what article talk pages are for, but what about user talk pages? So far, mine only has trout notifications and some notifications from a bot who harasses me every time one of my Teahouse threads gets archived. I had one person stop by and leave a message about an article I was working on at the time as well. Are user talk pages specifically for Wikipedia-related things or can I use mine for more general conversations and small talk with anyone who stops by? I ask because I saw someone else's talk page and they were talking with someone about their favorite character from a book series like it was a normal forum thread. [[User:ApteryxRainWing|ApteryxRainWing]] | [[User talk:ApteryxRainWing|Roar at me]] | [[Special:contribs/User:ApteryxRainWing|My contributions]] 15:28, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :{{Ping|ApteryxRainWing}} User talk pages are normally for delivering messages such as &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Tb}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, or even WikiLoves. They are used as a form of communication, such as alerts from AfC, etc. They can be used for notifications of a revert, warnings, etc. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 15:38, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{re|ApteryxRainWing}} user talk pages are for communication between editors regarding Wikipedia. The communication should generally take place on article's talk page, or concerned/relevant wikiproject, or venue where it can be seen by a larger group of people who might be interested in that discussion/situation. User talk pages are mostly used for notifications, and one-on-one communication. Also, I'm not sure if you know the exact meaning of &quot;harassment&quot;. If you want to stop the bot, there are clear instructions in the message itself. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 16:46, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::Not for chat, forum threads, jokes, etc. And with a few exceptions, you can archive or delete what you have been sent. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 17:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Editor change? == I was trying to work on an article the other day when I noticed a difference in how I edited. Previously, I had the visual editor, but instead I now was editing the source of the page itself. I'm pretty limited in my ability with the source code, and is there anyways to revert back to the visual editor? Did I accidentally change something in my settings? [[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] ([[User talk:Therguy10|talk]]) 16:22, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] When you're in the source editor, there's a little pen button on the right, if you click on that, you can select the visual editor. You can also change the URL directly by changing &quot;&amp;action=edit&quot; to &quot;&amp;veaction=edit&quot;. I hope this helps! [[User:Myrealnamm-alt|Myrealnamm&amp;#39;s Alternate Account]] ([[User talk:Myrealnamm-alt|talk]]) 16:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi. If you are on a talk page, VisualEditor does not work. If you are editing an article, just go to the dropdown menu as listed here :[[File:VisualEditor edit tab-en.png|300px|VisualEditor edit tab-en]] :{{pb}}I hope this helps. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 16:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Myrealnamm-alt|Myrealnamm-alt]] @[[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] Thank you! That's exactly what I needed and I really appreciate it! [[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] ([[User talk:Therguy10|talk]]) 16:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::No problem! I hope you enjoy Wikipedia! [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 17:00, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == I translated information from a different language to an article, but the original information is uncited - is this okay? == I translated the information from https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_Institute to add to [[The Interactive Institute]], as the English article is of low quality. The original article has no citations (well it has one, but it is not related to what I copied). Is this acceptable? If anyone wants to add citations to the article, I put some possible places citations could be found on the article's talk page. Thanks, [[User:The Neco-Arc|The Neco-Arc]] ([[User talk:The Neco-Arc|talk]]) 18:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :You more than doubled the length of the English article without adding any references. I do not see why the article should not be nominated for deletion. Are there no refs in the Swedish version that would help verify the English version? [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 18:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Yes, there are no references in the Swedish version that would help verify the English version. The Swedish page only has a reference for a different statement I did not translate. [[User:The Neco-Arc|The Neco-Arc]] ([[User talk:The Neco-Arc|talk]]) 05:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ping|The Neco-Arc}} Thanks for trying to improve the article, but I think it needs sources more than anything else. Wikipedia articles need to be based on [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] that are [[WP:IS|independent]] of the article's subject. You [[Talk:The Interactive Institute#Lack of references|suggested]] https://monoskop.org/Interactive_Institute, but that is a [[WP:UGC|user-generated]] wiki (i.e. unreliable), and the links there are all associated with the Interactive Institute (i.e. not independent). If there are no independent reliable sources that cover the Interactive Institute, the article will be deleted, so expanding it is like [[wikt:rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic|rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic]]. Also, while this is a moot point if the article is deleted, this paragraph [[Special:Diff/1259532546|you added]] has a very [[WP:NOTPROMO|promotional tone]]: {{tqb|The institute creates results by combining art, design and technology. By exploring and integrating these three areas, the institute strives to achieve innovative results that not only develop and question interaction and communication between people and their environment, but also challenge traditional perspectives and ways of thinking.}} Articles are improved by using a [[WP:NPOV|neutral tone]] and sticking to encyclopedic, [[WP:V|verifiable]] facts. [[User:Jlwoodwa|jlwoodwa]] ([[User talk:Jlwoodwa|talk]]) 18:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Each Wikipedia language has its own standards for neutral-point-of-view content and references, so even if what you added was a translation from the Swedish Wikipedia, the wording (and lack of independent references) cannot exist in English. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 20:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::True, it has a promotional tone. I did not know that that website is a user-generated wiki, and I cannot find any information about it other than that page, other than its website (through wayback machine, as the original website has been merged into another) and a page about a project by the institute, with little information on the institute other than some pictures of its project. As I cannot find any reliable sources on this institute itself, but it is part of RISE, I will redirect it to [[Research Institutes of Sweden]]. Thanks, [[User:The Neco-Arc|The Neco-Arc]] ([[User talk:The Neco-Arc|talk]]) 05:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Bookmarking oft-visited WP sites possible? == I now have a lot of sites I want to visit on occasion, such as my mentor's Talk page, some of the policy and guidance information like conflict of interest, and how to add images. Does Wikipedia have a Bookmark feature, as do Chrome, Safari, and other browsers? [[User:Augnablik|Augnablik]] ([[User talk:Augnablik|talk]]) 19:23, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Augnablik|Augnablik]] To a point, yes, you can add them to your [[WP:W|watchlist]]. :As for stuff that's unlikely to be updated but that you want to keep track of, I, as an Opera GX user, tend to simply have the tabs open in one of my workspaces so I don't have to go rummaging through my regular browser bookmarks. [[User:CommissarDoggo|&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008&quot;&gt;Commissar&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Doggo&lt;/b&gt;]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|&lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Talk?&lt;/sup&gt;]]'' 19:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:Augnablik|Augnablik]]. Another possibility is to add a list of links to your favourite pages on your user page (or a user subpage). [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 19:34, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:CommissarDoggo|CommissarDoggo]] and @[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]], thank you both for your ideas. I think Colin’s suggestion comes a little closer to what I was thinking of, but I should mention that after I posted this question here in the Teahouse, I thought to ask my mentor if perhaps there was a way to make a request of the tekkies to create a feature. ::In his reply, he mentioned the Wishlist. I’ll probably try that, though I know there’s no guarantee of a Wiki Bookmark feature ever being created — and of course that will take awhile. So I’ll try out all 3 of your suggestions, starting by trying to set up a User sub-page first. [[User:Augnablik|Augnablik]] ([[User talk:Augnablik|talk]]) 17:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == I want to upload a photo == I found an image that is crucial for illustrating early COVID-19 cases in Wuhan, which is directly relevant to an article on Wikipedia about the origins of the pandemic. What is the rationale that it's legal to upload this image under a fair use claim? The image is copyrighted, but I believe it falls under fair use for educational purposes. Does this justify uploading it? How can I ensure that I meet the requirements for fair use on Wikipedia, and are there any additional considerations or guidelines I should be aware of? The image is located at the following webpage: Worobey, M. (2021). Dissecting the early COVID-19 cases in Wuhan: Elucidating the origin of the pandemic requires understanding of the Wuhan outbreak. Science, 374(6572), 1202–1204. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.abm4454&amp;nbsp;[[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 20:47, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi {{u|Lardlegwarmers}}. There's information on this in [[:Wikipedia:Non-free content]] and [[:Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria]]; however, please understand that [[:fair use]] and non-free content use aren't exactly the same thing when it comes to Wikipedia, and Wikipedia's non-free content use policy [[:WP:NFC#Background|has been intentionally set up to be more restrictive than fair use]]. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 21:24, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::If you're asking about [https://www.science.org/cms/10.1126/science.abm4454/asset/a71068b5-36dc-4cf5-b1ff-5896a3f0ffb0/assets/graphic/science.abm4454-f1.svg this map], then I think you're going to have are time justifying it's non-free use per [[:WP:FREER]] and [[:WP:NFC#CS]]. The map of China itself is almost certainly not eligible for copyright protection per [[:c:COM:CB#Maps and satellite imagery]] because outlines of countries and place names are elements typically considered eligible for copyright protection; so, someone could essentially create their own map if they want. It's the way the data the map's based on is expressed visually that might be eligible for copyright protection, but the same information doesn't necessarily need to be expressed using this particular map or any map at all for Wikipedia's purposes; it could be expressed as plain text, in a [[:Wikipedia:Table]] or in some other form. If this map itself, however, was the subject of sourced critical commentary in reliable sources (either because others thought it to be accurate or perhaps thought it to be inaccurate), then that might be a way to justify its non-free use, but just wanting to show it as a map because it's a map is probably not going to be enough. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 00:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Reverting on mobile == How do I revert an article to a previous edit on mobile, as well as undo an edit? I am on an iPhone. [[User:AlexTheWikipedian|AlexTheWikipedian]] ([[User talk:AlexTheWikipedian|talk]]) 22:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi {{u|AlexTheWikipedian}}. I believe if you scroll all the way down to the bottom of a Wikipedia page while using the mobile Wikipedia site, I'm pretty sure you're given the option to view the page in &quot;Desktop mode&quot;. If you click this, you should see the page as you would see it using the regular Wikipedia set up, and be able to edit just like you would edit any Wikipedia. Be aware, though, that your mobie service provider might be using an IP proxy that is blocked from making edits per [[:Wikipedia:Open proxies]]; you can view pages fine, but you just can't edit them. So, if you go to desktop mode and still can't edit because the IP address your account is using has been blocked, there might not be much you can do except try [[:Wikipedia:IP block exemption]]. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 01:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == U.S. govt sources not credible for bio of U.S. diplomat? == Hi folks, I’ve been working on a bio page for a prominent international official, [[Draft:Mary Beth Goodman|draft here]]. The sources myself and other drafters have cited to document her career history are mostly from the U.S. government (the White House, the Congress, the Department of State) or from auxiliary roles she held in international bodies as a diplomat. Existing wiki bio pages for U.S. officials who have held the same position(s) or even more junior ones use the same types of sources. I’ve linked to examples of those bio pages in the draft’s talk page. However, I’m stuck. Several editors have rejected the draft bio because the sources aren’t sufficiently independent or credible, and they’ve suggested newspapers as alternative sources. Unfortunately news coverage of most diplomats’ careers doesn’t exist, so beyond what’s included in the media section of her page, I haven’t found sources such as the type they have recommended. How do I reconcile the reality of the sourcing (which has seemed legitimate enough to substantiate other bio pages) with the recommendations from editors? I’d appreciate advice re: what makes the existing sources in the draft not credible, and overall, what kinds of additional sources are needed to verify a living person’s bio when the majority of their career is documented by government and government-adjacent sources. Thanks in advance for the guidance. 🙏🙏 This is my first attempt at major drafting and it seems this is a bigger project than I had intended. [[User:Lfdigests|Lfdigests]] ([[User talk:Lfdigests|talk]]) 23:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :You need more articles from reliable sources to confirm notability. See [[WP: NOTABILITY]]. [[User:Ahri Boy|Ahri Boy]] ([[User talk:Ahri Boy|talk]]) 00:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :[[User:Lfdigests|Lfdigests]], I'm going to leave a message for one of the reviewers on the Talk page for your draft. I'm not going to have a lot of time during the next week, but will try to check back. I would think that she should be presumed notable by virtue of her high position in the OECD, though I could be wrong about that (and I'll ask about that on the Talk page). I don't have time to dig in on the references, etc., but I suggest that you look through the &quot;Publications, remarks, and media&quot; section (which you'll need to trim) and see if some of those confirm her notability (per WP's definition of [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]]), in which case you can use them as references. For example, I would think that the 4 minute NPR interview with her about the US's global COVID response is that sort of reference (the interview isn't about her, but she's seen as an expert, and NPR is an independent reliable source). &lt;small&gt;Edited to add: As I think about this more, I'm less certain that that helps establish her notability, since it's not significant coverage of ''her'', only significant coverage of the US international COVID response; I've asked SafariScribe about that on the Draft Talk page.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 02:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Automatic search for red links == Hello ! Anybody can say me if there are a way for an automatic search for red links ? When I see an article with red links. If there are articles about the topic available in another language than English. &lt;br /&gt; I create an interlanguage link. I'm unable to translate into English because I'm not a native speaker of this language and my translations could be too literal. &lt;br /&gt; I can translate from English into French but not the reverse. Therefore , create an interlanguage link is a good beginning but I don't know if we can search these links with internal search engine of Wikipedia. [[User:Anatole-berthe|Anatole-berthe]] ([[User talk:Anatole-berthe|talk]]) 23:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :You might ask any MediaWiki dev about your idea. [[User:Ahri Boy|Ahri Boy]] ([[User talk:Ahri Boy|talk]]) 00:01, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thanks for your answer ! &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; ::I don't know where to find a developper. ::I don't ever known where can I look to find one of them. ::Can you help me ? [[User:Anatole-berthe|Anatole-berthe]] ([[User talk:Anatole-berthe|talk]]) 00:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::See [[mw:Project:Support desk]]. [[User:Ahri Boy|Ahri Boy]] ([[User talk:Ahri Boy|talk]]) 00:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thanks you ! [[User:Anatole-berthe|Anatole-berthe]] ([[User talk:Anatole-berthe|talk]]) 02:23, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Anatole-berthe}} You could try this in {{yourjs}} to search Wikidata for the page name you are on, also if it's a red link: :::::&lt;syntaxhighlight lang=&quot;javascript&quot;&gt; mw.loader.using(['mediawiki.util'], function () { mw.util.addPortletLink( 'p-tb', '//www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=' + encodeURIComponent( mw.config.get('wgPageName') ), 'Wikidata search', 't-wikidatasearch', 'Search the page name in Wikidata', null, '#t-wikibase' ); }); &lt;/syntaxhighlight&gt; :::::It may not find other spellings and scripts. On [[Igor Artemov]] it gives [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Igor_Artemov Wikidata search] which finds {{Q|Q4070423}}. On [[Alexander Saliy]] it gives [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Alexander_Saliy Wikidata search] which doesn't find {{Q|Q16335510}}. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 02:24, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If I understood rightly. I create a page in my user's subpage '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js&quot;'''. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::Then , I can create a subpage inside '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js&quot;&quot;''' and for example I name it '''&quot;Finders&quot;'''. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::In '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js/Finders&quot;''' I can create a subpage named '''&quot;redlinkfinder.js&quot;'''. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::When I'll go to '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js/ScriptsJS/redlinkfinder.js&quot;'''. I'll be able to use the script if I copy and paste the code there. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::I'm not certain to understand if the script can be in the subpage of a subpage. ::::I prefer to organise my '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js&quot;'''. with subpages for a better organisation. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::I say you thanks because even if this script have the limits you exposed. It's better than nothing. [[User:Anatole-berthe|Anatole-berthe]] ([[User talk:Anatole-berthe|talk]]) 02:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Anatole-berthe}} I have made it a user script with installation instructions: [[User:PrimeHunter/Wikidata search.js]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 14:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Combine Blank Page with Draft Page == {{Blockquote|Hi, and thank you for [[Special:Contributions/Teahouse|your contributions]] to Wikipedia. It appears that you tried to give [[:Draft:Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal]] a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into [[:Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal]]. This is known as a &quot;[[Wikipedia:History merging|cut-and-paste move]]&quot;, and it is undesirable because it splits the [[Help:Page history|page history]], which is [[Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia|legally required for attribution]]. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be ''moved'' to a new title together with their edit history. In most cases for registered users, once your account is [[Wikipedia:User access levels#Autoconfirmed and confirmed users|four days old and has ten edits]], you should be able to move an article yourself using the [[Wikipedia:Moving a page|&quot;Move&quot; tab]] at the top of the page (the tab may be [[:File:Vector hidden move button.png|hidden in a dropdown menu]] for you). This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect]] from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested moves]] to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at [[Wikipedia:Requests for history merge]]. Thank you.}} -- [[User:KaabiiRamen|KaabiiRamen]] ([[User talk:KaabiiRamen|talk]]) 02:18, 26 November 2024 (UTC) : Hi {{u|KaabiiRamen}}. Do you have a question about how to use [[:Template:uw-c&amp;pmove]]? Do you have a question as to why [[:WP:HISTMERGE|copy and paste page moves]] are generally not recommended? Do you have a question about [[:Draft:Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal]] or {{no redirect|Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal}}? It will be easier for others to try and help you if you can clarify why you started this discussion. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 02:33, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Hello! I created the Draft page but then realized a page for it already existed that all it did was redirect. So i thought the best course of action would to move the draft data to the existing article. But it recommended tranferring which I can't do because the page already exists. So i was hoping to add the draft data to the existing article. [[User:KaabiiRamen|KaabiiRamen]] ([[User talk:KaabiiRamen|talk]]) 03:12, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::Thank you for clarifying {{u|KaabiiRamen}}. Given that the draft you want to move has already been declined once by an AfC reviewer, it's probably not a good idea for you to try to do so yourself even though it might be technically possible for you to do. Moving the page yourself at this point could lead to it being nominated for deletion if another user shares the AfC reviewer's concerns about the draft. If you're not sure what those concerns are or how to address them, you could ask the AfC reviewer who declined the draft for clarification, or you could ask for help at [[:WP:AFCHELP]]. For what it's worth, there's no limit on the number of times a draft can be submitted for AfC review as long as the same declined version doesn't keep being resubmitted over and over again. Moreover, if an AfC reviewer approves the draft, they will take care of all the cleanup associated with moving the page. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 04:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::Hi again KaabiiRamen. Given the comment just added to the draft's page by {{u|Anachronist}}, I definitely don't recommend you try to move the draft to the mainspace, but instead try to look for better sources to help establish the subject's Wikipedia notability per [[:WP:NSOFTWARE]]. Moving the draft to the mainspace yourself almost will certainly, at the very least, lead to it being [[:WP:DRAFTIFY|draftified]] but could also lead to the article being [[:WP:AFD|nominated for deletion]]. If you're having a hard time finding appropriate sources yourself, you could try asking for help at [[:WT:VG]]. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 05:26, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ==[[Markus Paterson]]== I noticed he is in digital romantic comedy series on YouTube and he has a small role maybe a guest role. I want to add this on his filmography but the only source i can find is the full episode on YouTube. What can I do if he officially appeared but there are no other sources regarding this. What can I do? [[Special:Contributions/122.55.235.127|122.55.235.127]] ([[User talk:122.55.235.127|talk]]) 03:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :If the actual owner of the show published it on their own YouTube channel, then you could consider it an 'official' primary source and cite it. If it's just a video that some random youtuber uploaded, then you can't cite it. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 04:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ec}} Hi IP 122.55.235.127. If there are no potential copyright violation issues per [[:WP:YOUTUBE]] and [[:WP:COPYLINK]], you can cite YouTube as the source. You can use a [[:WP:CT|citation template]] like [[:Template:Cite serial]] or [[:Template:Cite episode]] for that if you want and use the YouTube url for the {{para|url}} parameter. If there's a problem linking to YouTube, you can still cite the series or episode itself without providing a link by just leaving the {{para|url}} blank. [[:WP:OFFLINE|Wikipedia doesn't require sources cited be available online]], but it does require that they be [[:WP:RS|reliable]] and [[:WP:V|verifiable]], and offline sources are fine as long as you provide sufficient information about the source being cited. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 04:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Nomination of Malik Jamroz Khan for deletion == Good Morning I created this page regarding a know figure of our small area, who also happens to be my great grand father. The article contained only his bio and achievements made during his life time. It was created more than a decade ago. There was nothing controversial since it only had the bio of a known person with zero material objectionable to anybody. I know now been informed that the article has been ' nominated for deletion'. One wonders how can that be?? How can a non-controversial person, passed away in 1964, with few words written on his bio can be nominated for deletion???? [[User:Mujeebkanju1|Mujeebkanju1]] ([[User talk:Mujeebkanju1|talk]]) 04:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Being controversial isn't why articles are nominated for deletion nor is being harmless a reason to keep an article. Articles are nominated for deletion when they don't meet our standards for notability. Many older articles fell through the cracks and nobody got around to nominating them for deletion; there are nearly seven million articles here. The editors who discussed it all concluded that it was complete missing reliable, independent sources about Khan and that no improvements had been made to remedy the situation for 15 years. Can you provide three good sources that are primarily ''about'' Khan and that are both reliable and independent? If so, you can always try and write a new, compliant article and submit it to Articles for Creation. [[User:CoffeeCrumbs|CoffeeCrumbs]] ([[User talk:CoffeeCrumbs|talk]]) 05:09, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi, and welcome to Wikipedia, however, I think you may be operating under misperceptions of how our [[WP:deletion policy|deletion policy]] works. We [[WP:NOTCENSORED|do not]] delete articles because they are &quot;controversial.&quot; In your case, the article was deleted because it was found that Malik Jamroz Khan was not sufficiently [[WP:NPERSON|notable]] for inclusion in Wikipedia. For notability, [[WP:42|there must be significant coverage of the subject in independent, reliable, secondary sources]], which was not the case for this article. [[User:JJPMaster|JJP]]&lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:JJPMaster|Mas]]&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/JJPMaster|ter]]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt; ([[She (pronoun)|she]]/[[Singular they|they]]) 05:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Hi! I tried to nominate the article for deletion. Never done that, not sure if I did it right. == Hi! I tried to nominate the article. Google said to place the code, I tried. Let me know if that is the right way to do it. Thank you, guys. [[Earmilk]]. [[Special:Contributions/172.115.16.132|172.115.16.132]] ([[User talk:172.115.16.132|talk]]) 05:30, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi 172.115.16.132, you have to &quot;[[WP:subst|subst]]&quot; the template, so it should start like this: &lt;nowiki&gt;{{subst:Proposed deletion&lt;/nowiki&gt; [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 05:35, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::I did, but nothing changed. Can you take a look? [[Special:Contributions/172.115.16.132|172.115.16.132]] ([[User talk:172.115.16.132|talk]]) 05:37, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::An administrator named {{u|Queen of Hearts}} fixed the template's syntax; however, there's a difference between [[:WP:PROD|proposing an article for deletion]] (what you did) and [[:WP:AFD|nominating an article for deletion]]. Anyone may [[:WP:DEPROD]] the article (i.e. remove the proposed deletion template you added) for any reason or no reason at all; if that happens, don't re-add the template because an article can only be proposed for deletion once. If, at that point, you still feel the article should be deleted, you will need to start a regular AfD discussion and explain why. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 06:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{user|Queen of Hearts}} fixed the template, but I've contested the PROD for reasons given in my [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Earmilk&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259632598 edit summary]. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 06:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::&lt;nowiki&gt;I apologize. I still cannot understand how it is done. I do not understand where to add this {{&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[Template:Afd|subst:afd]]&lt;nowiki&gt;|Weather in London}}, and how to create the discussion.&lt;/nowiki&gt; [[Special:Contributions/2600:382:1153:E2F8:C09A:943E:E69E:6064|2600:382:1153:E2F8:C09A:943E:E69E:6064]] ([[User talk:2600:382:1153:E2F8:C09A:943E:E69E:6064|talk]]) 07:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Looks like you [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Earmilk|figured it out]]? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 08:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::yes, I am sorry for many repeated edits. I could not understand the instructions. [[User:Moondust534|Moondust534]] ([[User talk:Moondust534|talk]]) 08:05, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::No worries - those instructions are indeed a bit too complicated for beginners. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 08:09, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == [[Arturo Muñoz (intelligence)]] == Can anyone support another editor with [[Arturo Muñoz (intelligence)]]? The subject of the article, {{User|Arturo Guillermo Munoz}}, is not happy about the hyperbole in the article. There is also a lot of unsourced information. I started stripping it down but realised there wouldn't be a lot left, and his career is not something I'd have the expertise to find new references about. The user suggests that maybe there shouldn't be an article on him at all; I'm not able to judge notability in this topic area. Many thanks, [[User:Tacyarg|Tacyarg]] ([[User talk:Tacyarg|talk]]) 07:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Tacyarg}} This seems to be in hand, but for future reference [[WP:BLPN]] is a page dedicated to such matters. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 13:39, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == touch n go == i want mt statement but im already lost my account [[Special:Contributions/2001:D08:1420:7E23:90D1:BDA0:CFD8:F57E|2001:D08:1420:7E23:90D1:BDA0:CFD8:F57E]] ([[User talk:2001:D08:1420:7E23:90D1:BDA0:CFD8:F57E|talk]]) 09:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, it is unclear what question you are asking. Please rephrase? &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;qcne&lt;/span&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:02, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :{{welcometea}} If this is about the Malaysian Touch 'n Go card, we cannot help you. —[[User:Tenryuu|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#556B2F&quot;&gt;Tenryuu&amp;nbsp;🐲&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;(&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&amp;nbsp;•&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&amp;nbsp;) 10:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::I think the OP meant to say 'my' as the letters 'T' and 'Y' are next to each other and its not in uppercase. In that case, if you provided an email and have access to it, you should reset your password. Otherwise, you have no choice but to create a new account and (if you remember the username) remember to state somewhere that you were formerly edited under another username and to explain the situation, [[WP:COMPSOCK]]. [[User:JuniperChill|JuniperChill]] ([[User talk:JuniperChill|talk]]) 17:17, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Validity of an Wikipedia:Notability § Stand-alone lists article == &lt;s&gt;I would like to consult your views regarding a discussion on [[:tr:Vikipedi:Silinmeye_aday_sayfalar/Aydın'daki_ilköğretim_okulları_listesi|Turkish Wikipedia]] about an article deletion request. I am advocating for it to '''keep''', while the other editor argues for its '''deletion'''. Although Wikipedia in one language does not directly bind another language, I need to ask this because the editor in favor deletion has referenced a rule from English Wikipedia.&lt;/s&gt; To eliminate any confusion, I am crossing out the irrelevant parts. My question is related to the status of the article on English Wikipedia. I'm asking for your views about the article of [[List of public elementary schools in New York City]]. The other editor thinks that [[List of public elementary schools in New York City]]: * the article should be deleted, * or the listed schools should be removed, as they believe the list can only include entries with blue links. (Thinks that blue links indicates notability. However, [[WP:CSC]] explicitly contradicts.) * and cites [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists#LISTTYPES]] dynamic list section. I will explain the position I am advocating for based your views. For now, I would like to know in your opinion schools in NYC article complies with the rules in terms of its list feature and the schools it includes. [[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] ([[User talk:TarantaBabu|talk]]) 10:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]]: {{welcometea}} We can't provide feedback on the policies of other language Wikipedias, even if users decide to cite something from here. The most I can tell you to do is to be familiar with the Turkish Wikipedia's policies and base any argument you have on those. —[[User:Tenryuu|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#556B2F&quot;&gt;Tenryuu&amp;nbsp;🐲&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;(&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&amp;nbsp;•&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&amp;nbsp;) 10:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you but I'm not asking for feedbacks on the policies of Turkish Wikipedia. To be precise: [[List of public elementary schools in New York City]] in here whether it is legit article or not. The author thinks otherwise. [[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] ([[User talk:TarantaBabu|talk]]) 10:32, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::Just to clarify, are you asking whether we think the list is notable, because the Turkish version of is undergoinging a deletion discussion? If so, we can't help you with that - every wiki has their own policies and notability guidelines. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 10:47, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Of course but you can skip Turkish part, since I wanted elaborate context of the question. Based on English Wikipedia policies and notability guidelines, is the [[list of public elementary schools in New York City]] valid or not? It is the question of mine. [[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] ([[User talk:TarantaBabu|talk]]) 10:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Per [[WP:NLIST]], yes, it's a valid list. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 11:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Thank you for your view. I, also, think so. I am still up for other comments. [[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] ([[User talk:TarantaBabu|talk]]) 11:39, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Sourcing question == In the article for [[Walmart]], I wrote a sentence in the History section about them ending their DEI program and delisting gender affirming products for minors. I originally cited an ABC News article, but I found an article from the Associated Press, which I believe is a more reliable source when it comes to current events. As of my edit, both sources are there to back up my sentence but I kind of want to get rid of the ABC citation since AP is a better source. Should I get rid of it and leave the AP citation, or leave it alone with two citations? Additionally, to avoid any confusion in the future, does Wikipedia have some sort of tierlist or something for sources that ranks how accurate and reliable they are? I know we have one for bias, but I am not sure about accuracy. [[User:ApteryxRainWing|ApteryxRainWing]] | [[User talk:ApteryxRainWing|Roar at me]] | [[Special:contribs/User:ApteryxRainWing|My contributions]] 14:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi! If this is a problem, both sources, should be clear, as said by the reliability chart. I have placed some screenshots below to show you. [[File:ABC news reliability list 1.png]] [[File:AP News reliability result 1.png]] I would suggest to keep both, but it all comes down to the reference. For the full list of common references, click [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources|here]] Thanks, [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 14:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Thank you. For future reference, is it a good idea to have multiple citations on a claim, especially one about a recent and/or controversial development? On the surface it sounds like it adds credibility to my statement but having too many sources might impact readability because of all the blue superscript numbers. [[User:ApteryxRainWing|ApteryxRainWing]] | [[User talk:ApteryxRainWing|Roar at me]] | [[Special:contribs/User:ApteryxRainWing|My contributions]] 14:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:ApteryxRainWing|User:ApteryxRainWing]] I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Walmart&amp;diff=1259709496&amp;oldid=1259690979 fixed your ABC News citation]. One consideration is whether readers can access one source better than another source when there are two equivalent ones you could use. That isn't relevant here, as both are live weblinks. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:12, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::Would website stability contribute to that factor? AP has a lot of ads that slow the site down but ABC runs smoothly even on my terrible chromebook [[User:ApteryxRainWing|ApteryxRainWing]] | [[User talk:ApteryxRainWing|Roar with me!!!]] | [[Special:contribs/User:ApteryxRainWing|My contributions]] 17:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Would the LMU Open Science Center be notable for an Wikipedia article? == Is the [https://www.osc.uni-muenchen.de/index.html LMU Open Science Center] notable enough for the English Wikipedia? It is an independent part of the [[Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich|LMU]] in [[Munich]]. I'm not sure which notability criteria would apply to a semi independent part of a university, with its own staff etc. There are external sources about it, but not much as it often happens with academic institutions themself. Here would be some additional sources: * https://www.lmu.de/en/newsroom/news-overview/news/bringing-transparency-to-research-practice.html * https://explore.openaire.eu/search/publication?pid=10.5281%2Fzenodo.10285395 * https://network.febs.org/posts/embedding-open-research-in-institutional-practices * https://portal.volkswagenstiftung.de/search/projectDetails.do?ref=9D211 [[User:Kristbaum|Kristbaum]] ([[User talk:Kristbaum|talk]]) 14:28, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:Kristbaum|Kristbaum]], and welcome to the Teahouse. The four sources above contribute absolutely nothing to notability for the Centre, as the first three are not independent, and the last is a mere listing (and probably not independent either). You need three or more sources each of which meets ''all three'' of the criteria in [[WP:42]]. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 17:52, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Searching for a good place for article creation ideas == Hello TeaHouse!, I am new to editing and writing on wikipedia but there are some topics that I believe should have articles but don't. I am afraid to write an article on some of the topics as I am by no means an expert. However, I was wondering if there was a forum, talk page, or any kind of location that I could post some of these ideas in hopes that someone may want to write an article but is looking for an article to write. What is the most appropriate place to post suggestions like that? [[User:Middle Mac CJM|'''Middle Mac CJM''']] ([[User talk:Middle Mac CJM|talk]]) 15:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Middle Mac CJM|Middle Mac CJM]] To my knowledge, the best place would be the [[WP:SUGGEST|requested articles]] page. [[User:CommissarDoggo|&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008&quot;&gt;Commissar&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Doggo&lt;/b&gt;]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|&lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Talk?&lt;/sup&gt;]]'' 15:09, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you!!! [[User:Middle Mac CJM|'''Middle Mac CJM''']] ([[User talk:Middle Mac CJM|talk]]) 15:24, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Middle Mac CJM|Middle Mac CJM]] While in theory that should work, the reality is that there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of proposed article topics and very, very rarely are any taken up. If you believe a topic deserves an article then [[WP:YFA]] is the path. That said, there is a strong recommendation to gain experience improving existing articles before essaying to create. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 18:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == wikipedias user == whats Wikipedias user [[User:TheSmartWikiOne|TheSmartWikiOne]] ([[User talk:TheSmartWikiOne|talk]]) 16:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello @[[User:TheSmartWikiOne|TheSmartWikiOne]], and welcome to Wikipedia. It's unclear what exactly you're asking; can you please rephrase? [[User:CoconutOctopus|&lt;span style=&quot;color: purple&quot;&gt;CoconutOctopus&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:CoconutOctopus|&lt;span style=&quot;color: pink&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]] 16:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == About and other templates == In [[aliasing (factorial experiments)]], I want to modify the headnote to read: ''This article is about aliasing in statistics, in particular fractional factorial designs. For other uses, see [[Aliasing (disambiguation)]].'' If I try to do this using the &quot;About&quot; template, I get: ''This article is about aliasing in statistics, in particular fractional factorial designs. For other uses, see [[Aliasing (factorial experiments) (disambiguation)]].'' There is no such disambiguation page. I don't see a way to use extra arguments to do what I want. The templates &quot;Other uses&quot; and &quot;For&quot; are not helpful here, either, and I'm assuming that I would need to write a unique headnote for this purpose. I'd appreciate some assistance in this. [[User:Johsebb|Johsebb]] ([[User talk:Johsebb|talk]]) 16:32, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Johsebb|Johsebb]] What you need is &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{About|aliasing in statistics, in particular fractional factorial designs|other uses, see|Aliasing (disambiguation)}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. Copy/paste this directly from the rendered text, as you don't need the nowiki etc. you see in the source code. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:01, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == How to cite a PDF? == I'm trying to cite this PDF:https://www.deped.gov.ph/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/DO_s2008_060.pdf for the [[Philippine English]] article's starting paragraph, but I don't know how to cite stuff manually. [[User:BadEditor93|BadEditor93]] ([[User talk:BadEditor93|talk]]) 16:47, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:BadEditor93|BadEditor93]] The easiest template to use is {{tl|cite web}}. See that link for the parameters it takes. The URL for the .pdf goes into the &lt;code&gt;|url=&lt;/code&gt; parameter and you fill out others like the title, date and authors from the content of the .pdf itself. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 16:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == I found a somewhat suspicious user. It seems as though they're editing things to advertise a business. == I do know that the user is actually contributing, or at least... it looks like it. I'm not really experienced enough to what to do from here. Can someone help me out? [[User:AmrAlWatan|AmrAlWatan]]([[User_talk:AmrAlWatan|🗣️]]|[[Special:Contributions/AmrAlWatan|📝]]) 16:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:AmrAlWatan|AmrAlWatan]] Could you link what you're referencing for us? [[User:CommissarDoggo|&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008&quot;&gt;Commissar&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Doggo&lt;/b&gt;]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|&lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Talk?&lt;/sup&gt;]]'' 16:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == How would you mark an article for good? == I know that some articles are marked as &quot;good&quot; across the website. (about 0.53%?) How would I go about trying to nominate an article for being good? And if it's rejected, would I be given feedback on how to improve said article? (In my case I'm trying to nominate [[Millennium Force]]; it's an article I've poured time into and am really passionate about) [[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] ([[User talk:Therguy10|talk]]) 16:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] See [[WP:GA]]. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 17:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] That article is already a [[WP:FA|featured article]]. [[WP:GA|Good articles]] are actually of a lower standard! [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Details, details. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 17:05, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Michael D. Turnbull]] Oh wow! That makes me pretty happy! ::Well into the future, if I was to try to make a different article good status, how would that work? I really don't have any article in mind but for future reference that could be helpful. [[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] ([[User talk:Therguy10|talk]]) 17:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::The links to [[WP:GA]] that have already been provided give full details. Note the various tabs for instructions/nomination/etc. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] @[[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Michael D. Turnbull]] Oh whoops I didn't see that. Thank you both! [[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] ([[User talk:Therguy10|talk]]) 17:18, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Why does wiki sometimes show &quot;Edit&quot; and other times show &quot;Edit Source&quot;? == Its annoying for my 2 braincells, since I'm horrible at source editing, but it always shows up, unless for suggested edits. Is there a way to toggle this? [[User:BlazeFlames|BlazeFlames]] ([[User talk:BlazeFlames|talk]]) 18:31, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:BlazeFlames|BlazeFlames]], are you having this problem on article pages or only elsewhere? There is no Visual Editor support for talk pages, for example, so it's only edit source available there. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 18:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Why do some categories on some pages seem unremovable? == Recently I discovered that the [[1910 United States census|1910 United States Census]] was in the category [[:Category:Cities in the United States|Cities in the United States]]. I attempted to remove the category using visual editor, but it didn't show up in the category box while editing. I then went to source editor, and it didn't appear in the source code. Does anyone have any idea why this is the case? &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Arial; padding: 2px 3px 1px 3px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Gaismagorm|&lt;span style=&quot;color: teal&quot;&gt;Gaismagorm&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Gaismagorm|&lt;span style=&quot;color: teal&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:40, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Work_motivation&diff=1259717311</id> <title>Work motivation</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Work_motivation&diff=1259717311"/> <updated>2024-11-26T17:57:27Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: Reverted edit by 154.74.144.19 (talk) to last version by Citation bot <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Forces that originate both within an individual's being, to initiate work-related behavior}} {{For|general motivation|Motivation}} '''Work motivation''' is a person's internal disposition toward work. To further this, an ''incentive'' is the anticipated reward or aversive event available in the environment.&lt;ref name=&quot;Dec&quot;&gt;Deckers, L. (2010). Motivation; Biological, Psychological and Environmental. (3rd ed., pp. 2–3). Boston, MA: Pearson.&lt;/ref&gt; While motivation can often be used as a tool to help predict behavior, it varies greatly among individuals and must often be combined with ability and [[environmental factors]] to actually influence behavior and performance. Results from a 2012 study, which examined age-related differences in work motivation, suggest a &quot;shift in people's motives&quot; rather than a general decline in motivation with age. That is, it seemed that older employees were less motivated by extrinsically related features of a job, but more by intrinsically rewarding job features.&lt;ref&gt;Inceoglu, I., Segers, J., &amp; Bartram, D (2012). Age-related differences in work motivation''Journal of Occupational and Organizational Psychology, 85''(2), 300-329.&lt;/ref&gt; Work motivation is strongly influenced by certain cultural characteristics. Between countries with comparable levels of [[economic development]], [[Collectivism and individualism|collectivist]] countries tend to have higher levels of work motivation than do countries that tend toward [[individualism]]. Similarly measured, higher levels of work motivation can be found in countries that exhibit a long versus a short-term orientation. Also, while national income is not itself a strong predictor of work motivation, indicators that describe a nation's economic strength and stability, such as life expectancy, are. Work motivation decreases as a nation's long-term economic strength increases.&lt;ref&gt;Klonoski, R. (2011). Work motivation, culture, and economic development: Is work motivation shaped by its socio-economic context? International Journal of Management &amp; Information Systems, 15(4), 91-97.&lt;/ref&gt; Currently work motivation research has explored motivation that may not be consciously driven. This method goal setting is referred to as goal [[Priming (psychology)|priming]]. It is important for [[organizations]] to understand and to structure the work environment to encourage productive behaviors and discourage those that are unproductive given work motivation's role in influencing workplace behavior and performance.&lt;ref name=&quot;Jex&quot;&gt;Jex, S.M. &amp; Britt, T.W. (2008). Organizational Psychology. Hoboke, New Jersey: John Wiley &amp; Sons, Inc.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Mitchell&quot;&gt;Mitchell, T.R.; Daniels, D. 2003. Motivation. ''Handbook of Psychology'', Vol. 12. Industrial Organizational Psychology, ed. W.C. Borman, D.R. Ilgen, R.J. Klimoski, pp. 225–54. New York: Wiley.&lt;/ref&gt; Motivational systems are at the center of behavioral organization.&lt;ref name=&quot;Emmons&quot;&gt;Emmons 1999; Steers, Mowday &amp; Shapiro, 2004; Schein, 1980; and Knopf, 1967&lt;/ref&gt; Emmons states, “Behavior is a discrepancy-reduction process, whereby individuals act to minimize the discrepancy between their present condition and a desired standard or goal” (1999, p.&amp;nbsp;28). If we look at this from the standpoint of how leaders can motivate their followers to enhance their performance, participation in any organization involves exercising choice; a person chooses among alternatives, responding to the motivation to perform or ignore what is offered. This suggests that a follower's consideration of personal interests and the desire to expand knowledge and skill has significant motivational impact, requiring the leader to consider motivating strategies to enhance performance.&lt;ref name=&quot;Casteli&quot;&gt;&quot;Casteli,P., Castronova, F, Stavros, J. Galloway, J.(2007) Leaders and Followers: The Role of Achievement Motives and Their Effects on Motivating Strategies for Enhancing Performance, pg. 3.&lt;/ref&gt; There is general [[Scientific consensus|consensus]] that motivation involves three psychological processes: [[arousal]], direction, and intensity. Arousal is what initiates action. It is fueled by a person's need or desire for something that is missing from their lives at a given moment, either totally or partially. Direction refers to the path employees take in accomplishing the goals they set for themselves. Finally, intensity is the vigor and amount of energy employees put into this goal-directed work performance. The level of intensity is based on the importance and difficulty of the goal. These psychological processes result in four outcomes. First, motivation serves to direct [[attention]], focusing on particular issues, people, tasks, etc. It also serves to stimulate an employee to put forth effort. Next, motivation results in [[Persistence (psychology)|persistence]], preventing one from deviating from the goal-seeking behavior. Finally, motivation results in task strategies, which as defined by Mitchell &amp; Daniels, are &quot;patterns of behavior produced to reach a particular goal&quot;. ==Theories== A number of various theories attempt to describe [[employee motivation]] within the discipline of [[industrial and organizational psychology]]. At the macro level, work motivation can be categorized into two types, endogenous process (individual, cognitive) theories and exogenous cause (environmental) theories.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last1=Grant |first1=Adam |last2=Shin |first2=Jihae |title=Work motivation: Directing, energizing, and maintaining effort (and research). Forthcoming in R.M. Ryan (Ed.), Oxford handbook of motivation |date=2011 |publisher=Oxford University Press |location=USA |isbn=978-0-19-539982-0 |pages=505–519}}&lt;/ref&gt; Many theories fit simply into one type, but hybrid types such as [[self-determination theory]] attempt to account for both. It can be helpful to further divide theories into the four broad categories of need-based, [[cognitive process]], [[behavioral]], and job-based.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; ===Need-based theories=== Need-based theories of motivation focus on an employee's drive to satisfy a variety of needs through their work. These needs range from basic physiological needs for survival to higher psychoemotional needs like belonging and self-actualization. ====Maslow's hierarchy of needs==== {{Further|Maslow's hierarchy of needs}} [[Image:Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.svg|thumb|right|350px|An interpretation of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, represented as a pyramid with the more basic needs at the bottom.]] [[Abraham Maslow]]'s Hierarchy of Needs (1943) was applied to offer an explanation of how the work environment motivates employees. In accordance with Maslow's theory, which was not specifically developed to explain behavior in the workplace, employees strive to satisfy their needs in a [[hierarchical]] order.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; At the most basic level, an employee is motivated to work in order to satisfy basic physiological needs for survival, such as having enough money to purchase food. The next level of need in the hierarchy is [[safety]], which could be interpreted to mean adequate housing or living in a safe neighborhood. The next three levels in Maslow's theory relate to intellectual and psycho-emotional needs: love and belonging, esteem (which refers to competence and mastery), and finally the highest order need, [[self-actualization]]. Although Maslow's theory is widely known, in the workplace it has proven to be a poor predictor of employee behavior.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; Maslow theorized that people will not seek to satisfy a higher level need until their lower level needs are met. There has been little [[empirical]] support for the idea that employees in the workplace strive to meet their needs only in the hierarchical order prescribed by Maslow. Building on Maslow's theory, [[Clayton Alderfer]] (1959) collapsed the levels in Maslow's theory from five to three: existence, relatedness and growth. This theory, called the ERG theory, does not propose that employees attempt to satisfy these needs in a strictly hierarchical manner. Empirical support for this theory has been mixed.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; ====Need for achievement==== Atkinson &amp; McClelland's Need for Achievement Theory is the most relevant and applicable need-based theory in the I–O psychologist's arsenal. Unlike other need-based theories, which try to interpret every need, Need for Achievement allows the I–O psychologist to concentrate research into a tighter focus. Studies show those who have a high need for achievement prefer moderate levels of [[risk]], seek [[feedback]], and are likely to immerse themselves in their work{{citation needed|date=December 2018}}. Achievement motivation can be broken down into three types: *Achievement – seeks position advancement, feedback, and sense of accomplishment *Authority – need to lead, make an impact and be heard by others *Affiliation – need for friendly social interactions and to be liked. Because most individuals have a combination of these three types (in various proportions), an understanding of these achievement motivation characteristics can be a useful assistance to management in [[job placement]], [[recruitment]], etc.&lt;ref&gt;McClelland, D. (1965). Toward a theory of motive acquisition. ''American Psychologist'', 20, 321–33.&lt;/ref&gt; The theory is referred to as Need for Achievement because these individuals are theorized to be the most effective employees and leaders in the workplace. These individuals strive to achieve their goals and advance in the organization. They tend to be dedicated to their work and strive hard to succeed. Such individuals also demonstrate a strong desire for increasing their knowledge and for feedback on their performance, often in the form of [[performance appraisal]] .&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; The Need for Achievement is in many ways similar to the need for mastery and self-actualization in Maslow's hierarchy of needs and growth in the ERG theory. The achievement orientation has garnered more research interest as compared to the need for affiliation or power. ===Cognitive process theories=== ====Equity theory==== {{Further|Equity theory}} Equity Theory is derived from [[social exchange theory]]. It explains motivation in the workplace as a cognitive process of evaluation, whereby the employee seeks to achieve a balance between inputs or efforts in the workplace and the outcomes or rewards received or anticipated. In particular, Equity Theory research has tested employee sentiments regarding equitable compensation. Employee inputs take the form of work volume and quality, performance, knowledge, skills, attributes and behaviors. The company-generated outcomes include rewards such as compensation, praise and advancement opportunities. The employee compares their inputs relative to outcomes; and, then, extrapolating to the social context, the employee compares their input/outcome ratio with the perceived ratios of others. If the employee perceives an inequity, the theory posits that the employee will adjust their behavior to bring things into balance. Equity Theory has proven relevance in situations where an employee is under-compensated. If an employee perceives that they are under-compensated, they can adjust their behavior to achieve equilibrium in several different ways: * reduce input to a level they believe better matches their level of compensation * change or adjust the comparative standard to which they are comparing their situation * cognitively adjust their [[perception]] of their inputs or the outcomes received * withdraw * ask their employer for increased compensation * engage in employee theft If the employee is able to achieve a [[ratio]] of inputs to outputs that they perceive to be equitable, then the employee will be satisfied. The employee's evaluation of input-to-output ratios and subsequent striving to achieve equilibrium is an ongoing process. While it has been established that Equity Theory provides insight into scenarios of under-compensation, the theory has generally failed to demonstrate its usefulness in understanding [[scenarios]] of overcompensation.&lt;ref name=&quot;Ambrose&quot;&gt;Ambrose, M. &amp; Kulik, C. (1999). Old friends, new faces: Motivation research in the 1990s. ''Journal of Management'', 25(3), 231–92.&lt;/ref&gt; In this way, it could be said Equity Theory is more useful in describing factors that contribute to a lack of motivation rather than increasing motivation in the workplace. Concepts of organizational justice later expanded upon the fundamentals of Equity Theory and pointed to the importance of fairness perceptions in the workplace. There are four fairness perceptions applied to organizational settings: # Distributive justice, or the perception of equality of an individual's outcomes # Procedural justice, or the fairness of the procedures used to determine one's outcomes # [[Interactional justice]], or the perception that one has been treated fairly with dignity and respect&lt;ref name=Mitchell/&gt; # Informational Justice, or the perception that one has been given all the information one needs in order to best perform their jobs When workplace processes are perceived as fair, the benefits to an organization can be high. In such environments, employees are more likely to comply with policies even if their personal outcome is less than optimal. When workplace policies are perceived as unfair, risks for retaliation and related behaviors such as sabotage and workplace violence can increase.&lt;ref name=Mitchell/&gt; Leventhal (1980) described six criteria for creating fair procedures in an organization. He proposed that procedures and policies should be:&lt;ref name=Mitchell/&gt; # consistently applied to everyone in the organization # free from [[bias]] # accurate # correctable # representative of all concerns # based on prevailing [[ethics]] ====Expectancy theory==== {{Further|Expectancy theory}} According to Vroom's Expectancy Theory, an employee will work smarter and/or harder if they believe their additional efforts will lead to valued rewards. Expectancy theory explains this increased output of effort by means of the equation {{math|''F'' {{=}} ''E'' (Σ ''I'' × ''V'')}} whereas: ''F'' (Effort or Motivational Force) = Effort the employee will expend to achieve the desired performance;&lt;br&gt; ''E'' (Expectancy) = Belief that effort will result in desired level of performance;&lt;br&gt; ''I'' (Instrumentality) = Belief that desired level of performance will result in desired outcome;&lt;br&gt; ''V'' (Valence) = Value of the outcome to the employee&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; Expectancy theory has been shown to have useful applications in designing a [[reward system]]. If policies are consistently, clearly and fairly implemented, then the instrumentality would be high. If the rewards are substantial enough to be meaningful to an employee, then the valence would be also considered high. A precursor to motivation is that the employee finds the reward(s) attractive. In some instances, the reward or outcome might inadvertently be unattractive, such as increased workload or demanding travel that may come with a promotion. In such an instance, the valence might be lower for individuals who feel work–life balance is important, for example. Expectancy theory posits employee satisfaction to be an outcome of performance rather than the cause of performance. However, if a pattern is established whereas an employee understands his performance will lead to certain desired rewards, an employee's motivation can be strengthened based on anticipation.&lt;ref name=&quot;Lawler&quot;&gt;Lawler, E.E. &amp; Jenkins, G.D. (1992). Strategic reward systems. In M.D. Dunnette and L.M. Hough (eds.), ''Handbook of industrial and organizational psychology'' (2nd ed., 1009–55). Palo Alto, CA: Consulting Psychologists Pres&lt;/ref&gt; If the employees foresee a high probability that they can successfully carry out a desired behavior, and that their behavior will lead to a valued outcome, then they will direct their efforts toward that end. Expectancy theory has been shown to have greater validity in research in within-subject designs rather than between-subjects designs. That is, it is more useful in predicting how an employee might choose among competing choices for their time and energy, rather than predicting the choices two different employees might make.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; ====Goal-setting theory{{anchor|Goal Setting}}==== {{See also|Goal setting}} An I–O psychologist can assist an employer in designing task-related goals for their employees that are * attainable * specific * appropriately difficult, * feedback providing in hopes of rousing tunnel vision focus in the employees.&lt;ref&gt;Locke, E.A. &amp; Latham, G.P. (1990). ''A theory of goal setting and task performance''. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall.&lt;/ref&gt; Following [[SMART criteria|S.M.A.R.T criteria]] is also suggested. {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; ! Letter ! Major Term ! Minor Terms |- | S | Specific | Significant, Stretching, Simple |- | M | Measurable | Meaningful, Motivational, Manageable |- | A | Attainable | Appropriate, Achievable, Agreed, Assignable, Actionable, Ambitious, Aligned, Aspirational, Acceptable, Action-focused |- | R | Relevant | Results-oriented, Realistic, Resourced, Resonant |- | T | Timely | Time-oriented, Time framed, Timed, Time-based, Timeboxed, Time-bound, Time-Specific, Timetabled, Time limited, Trackable, Tangible |} Studies have shown both feedback from the employer and [[self-efficacy]] (belief in one's capabilities to achieve a goal) within the employee must be present for goal-setting to be effective.&lt;ref name=&quot;Wright&quot;&gt;Wright, P.M. (1992). An examination of the relationships among monetary incentives, goal level, goal commitment, and performance. ''Journal of Management'', 18, 677–93.&lt;/ref&gt; However, because of the tunnel vision focus created by goal-setting theory, several studies have shown this motivational theory may not be applicable in all situations. In fact, in tasks that require creative on-the-spot improvising, goal-setting can even be counterproductive.&lt;ref name=&quot;Staw&quot;&gt;Staw, B.M. &amp; Boettger, R.D. (1990). Task revision: A neglected form of work performance. ''Academy of Management Journal'', 33, 534–59.&lt;/ref&gt; Furthermore, because clear goal specificity is essential to a properly designed goal-setting task, multiple goals can create confusion for the employee and the result is a muted overall drive.&lt;ref&gt;Gilliland, S.W. &amp; Landis, R.S. (1992). Quality and quantity goals in a complex decision task: Strategies and outcomes. ''Journal of Applied Psychology'', 77, 672–81.&lt;/ref&gt; Despite its flaws, Goal-setting Theory is arguably the most dominant theory in the field of I–O psychology; over one thousand articles and reviews published in just over thirty years.&lt;ref name=Mitchell/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Pinder&quot;&gt;Latham, G. &amp; Pinder, C. (2005). Work motivation theory and research at the dawn of the twenty-first century. ''Annual Review of Psychology'', 56, 485–516.&lt;/ref&gt; Locke suggested several reasons why goals are motivating: they direct attention, lead to task persistence and the development of task strategies for accomplishing the goal. In order for a goal to be motivating, the employee or work group must first accept the goal. While difficult goals can be more motivating, a goal still needs to appear achievable, which in turn will lead to greater goal acceptance. The person or group should have the necessary skills and resources to achieve the goal, or goal acceptance could be negatively impacted. Specific goals that set a performance expectation are more motivating than those that are vague. Similarly, more proximal goals have greater motivation impact than those that are very long range or distal goals.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; There are three types of factors that influence goal commitment: * External- The external factors that affect it are authority, peer influence and external rewards. Complying with the dictates of an authority figure such as boss has been shown to be an inducement to high goal commitment. Goal commitment increases when the authority figure is physically present, supportive, pay increases, peer pressure and external rewards. * Interactive- The factors that influence commitment here are competition and the opportunity to participate in setting goals. It has been shown to be an inducement to setting higher goals and working harder to reach them. * Internal- these come from self-administered rewards and the expectation of success. The commitment decreases when the expectation to achieve is decreased. From: Psychology and Work Today by Schultz and Schultz.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last=Schultz &amp; Schultz|first=Duane|title=Psychology and work today|year=2010|publisher=Prentice Hall|location=New York|isbn=978-0-205-68358-1|pages=38–39(10th ed. ed)}}&lt;/ref&gt; Feedback while the employee or group is striving for the goal is seen as crucial. Feedback keeps employees on track and reinforces the importance of the goal as well as supporting the employees in adjusting their task strategies. Goal-setting Theory has strong empirical support dating back thirty years. However, there are some boundary conditions that indicate in some situations, goal-setting can be detrimental to performance on certain types of tasks. Goals require a narrowing of one's focus, so for more complex or [[creativity|creative]] tasks, goals can actually inhibit performance because they demand cognitive resources. Similarly, when someone is learning a new task, performance-related goals can distract from the learning process. During the [[learning process]], it may be better to focus on mastering the task than achieving a particular result.&lt;ref name= Mitchell/&gt; Finally, too many goals can become distracting and counterproductive, especially if they conflict with one another. ====Social cognitive theory==== {{Further|Social cognitive theory}} Bandura's Social Cognitive Theory is another cognitive process theory that offers the important concept of self-efficacy for explaining employee's level of motivation relative to workplace tasks or goals. Self-efficacy is an individual's belief in their ability to achieve results in a given scenario. Empirically, studies have shown a strong correlation between self-efficacy and performance. The concept has been extended to group efficacy, which is a group's belief that it can achieve success with a given task or project.&lt;ref name=Mitchell/&gt; Self-efficacy is seen to mediate important aspects of how an employee undertakes a given task, such as the level of effort and persistence.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; An employee with high self-efficacy is confident that effort they put forth has a high likelihood of resulting in success. In anticipation of success, an employee is willing to put forth more effort, persist longer, remain focused on the task, seek feedback and choose more effective task strategies. The antecedents of self-efficacy may be influenced by expectations, training or past experience and requires further research. It has been shown that setting high expectations can lead to improved performance, known as the [[Pygmalion effect]]. Low expectations can lower self-efficacy and is referred to as the [[golem effect]].&lt;ref name=Mitchell/&gt; Relative to training, a mastery-oriented approach has been shown to be an effective way to bolster self-efficacy. In such an approach, the goal of training is to focus on mastering skills or tasks rather than focusing on an immediate performance-related outcome. Individuals who believe that mastery can be achieved through training and practice are more likely to develop greater self-efficacy than those who see mastery as a product of inherent talent than is largely immutable.&lt;ref name=Mitchell/&gt; Major concepts of Social Cognitive Theory correlated with the effect of individual behavior change:&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.ruralhealthinfo.org/toolkits/health-promotion/2/theories-and-models/social-cognitive |title=Social Cognitive theory |author=&lt;!--Not stated--&gt; |date=n.d. |website=Rural Health Information Hub |access-date=12 December 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; *Self-efficacy, or an individual's confidence in accomplishing a behavior *Behavioral capability, or knowledge and skill to execute a behavior *Expectations, or anticipation of outcomes of a behavior *Expectancies, or giving values to the outcome of behavior change *Self-control, or regulating behavior or performance *Observational learning, or watching the actions and outcomes performed by others *Reinforcements, or encouraging motivations and rewards to promote behavior change ===Behavioral approach to motivation=== The behavioral approach to workplace motivation is known as Organizational Behavioral Modification. This approach applies the tenets of behaviorism developed by [[B.F. Skinner]] to promote employee behaviors that an employer deems beneficial and discourage those that are not. Any [[Stimulus (physiology)|stimulus]] that increases the likelihood of a behavior increasing is a reinforcer. An effective use of [[positive reinforcement]] would be frequent praise while an employee is learning a new task. An employee's behavior can also be shaped during the learning process if approximations of the ideal behavior are praised or rewarded. The frequency of reinforcement is an important consideration. While frequent praise during the learning process can be beneficial, it can be hard to sustain indefinitely.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; A variable-ratio schedule of reinforcement, where the frequency of reinforcement varies unpredictably, also can be highly effective if used in instances where it is ethical to do so. Providing praise on a variable-ratio schedule would be appropriate, whereas paying an employee on an unpredictable variable-ratio schedule would not be. Compensation and other reward programs provide behavioral reinforcement, and if carefully crafted, can provide powerful incentives to employees. Behavioral principles can also be used to address undesirable behaviors in the workplace, but punishment should be used judiciously. If overused, punishment can negatively impact employee's perception of fairness in the workplace.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; In general, the less time that elapses between a behavior and its consequence, the more impactful a consequence is likely to be. ===Job-based theories=== The job-based theories hold that the key to motivation is within an employee's job itself. Generally, these theories say that jobs can be motivating by their very design. This is a particularly useful view for organizations, because the practices set out in the theories can be implemented more practically in an organization. Ultimately, according to the job-based theories, the key to finding motivation through one's job is being able to derive satisfaction from the job content.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; ====Motivation–hygiene theory==== {{Main|Two-factor theory}} Herzberg's Motivation–Hygiene Theory holds that the content of a person's job is the primary source of motivation. In other words, he argued against the commonly held belief that money and other compensation is the most effective form of motivation to an employee. Instead, Herzberg posed that high levels of what he dubbed hygiene factors (pay, [[job security]], status, [[working conditions]], [[fringe benefits]], job policies, and relations with co-workers) could only reduce employee dissatisfaction (not create satisfaction). Motivation factors (level of challenge, the work itself, responsibility, recognition, advancement, [[intrinsic]] interest, [[autonomy]], and opportunities for creativity) however, could stimulate satisfaction within the employee, provided that minimum levels of the hygiene factors were reached. For an organization to take full advantage of Herzberg's theory, they must design jobs in such a way that motivators are built in, and thus are intrinsically rewarding. While the Motivation–Hygiene Theory was the first to focus on job content, it has not been strongly supported through empirical studies.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; Frederick Herzberg also came up with the concept of '''job enrichment''', which expands jobs to give employees a greater role in planning, performing, and evaluating their work, thus providing the chance to satisfy their motivators needs. Some suggested ways would be to remove some management control, provide regular and continuously [[feedback]]. Proper job enrichment, therefore, involves more than simply giving the workers extra tasks to perform. It means expanding the level of knowledge and skills needed to perform the job.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last=Schultz|first=Duane P. Schultz, Sydney Ellen|title=Psychology and work today : an introduction to industrial and organizational psychology|year=2010|publisher=Prentice Hall|location=Upper Saddle River, N.J.|isbn=978-0205683581|page=71|edition=10th}}&lt;/ref&gt; ====Job characteristics theory==== Shortly after Herzberg's Two-factor theory, Hackman and Oldham contributed their own, more refined, job-based theory; [[Job characteristic theory]] (JCT). JCT attempts to define the association between core job dimensions, the critical psychological states that occur as a result of these dimensions, the personal and work outcomes, and growth-need strength. Core job dimensions are the characteristics of a person's job. The core job dimensions are linked directly to the critical psychological states. The [[Job satisfaction#Job characteristics model|Job Characteristics Model]] (JCM), as designed by Hackman and Oldham attempts to use job design to improve employee intrinsic motivation. They show that any job can be described in terms of five key job characteristics:&lt;ref name=HackmanOldham1980&gt;J.R. Hackman and G.R. Oldham. Work Redesign. Upper Saddle River, N.J.: Pearson Education, Inc, 1980; pp 78-80.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=RalphKatz2013&gt;Katz, Ralph. Motivating Technical Professionals Today. ''[[IEEE Technology Management Council|IEEE Engineering Management Review]]'', Vol. 41, No. 1, March 2013, pp. 28-38&lt;/ref&gt; According to the JCT, an organization that provides workers with sufficient levels of ''skill variety'' (using different skills and talents in performing work), ''task identity'' (contributing to a clearly identifiable larger project), and ''task significance'' (impacting the lives or work of other people) is likely to have workers who feel their work has meaning and value. Sufficiently high levels of ''autonomy'' (independence, freedom and discretion in carrying out the job) will inspire the worker to feel responsibility for the work; and sufficiently high levels of ''Task Feedback'' (receiving timely, clear, specific, detailed, ''[[Action item|actionable]]'' information about the effectiveness of their job performance) will inspire the worker to feel the organization is authentically interested in helping to foster their professional development and growth. The combined effect of these psychological states results in desired personal and work outcomes: intrinsic motivation, [[job satisfaction]], performance quality, low absenteeism, and low turnover rate.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt;&lt;ref name=HackmanOldham1980/&gt;&lt;ref name=RalphKatz2013/&gt; Lastly, the glue of this theory is the &quot;growth-need strength&quot; factor which ultimately determines the effectiveness of the core job dimensions on the psychological states, and likewise the effectiveness of the critical psychological states on the affective outcomes.&lt;ref name=&quot;Wright&quot;/&gt; Further analysis of Job Characteristics Theory can be found in the Work Design section below. Hackman and Oldman created the '''Job Diagnostic Survey''' (JDS) which measures three parts of their theory. #Employees views of the job characteristics #The level of growth needed by each employee #Employees overall [[job satisfaction]] JDS is the most frequently and commonly used tool to measure job and [[work design]]. JDS is a self-report which has small detailed phrases for the different job characteristics. An employee will be asked to fill out the JDS and rate how precise each statement describes their job. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last=Schultz|first=Duane P. Schultz, Sydney Ellen|title=Psychology and work today : an introduction to industrial and organizational psychology|year=2010|publisher=Prentice Hall|location=Upper Saddle River, N.J.|isbn=978-0205683581|page=227|edition=10th}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Self-regulation theory=== A theory based in self-efficacy, Self Regulation is &quot;A theory of motivation based on the setting of goals and the receipt of accurate feedback that is monitored to enhance the likelihood of goal attainment&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Mu&quot;&gt;Munchinsky, Paul M. (2012). Psychology Applied to Work. Summerfield, North Carolina: Hypergraph Press, Inc.&lt;/ref&gt; It is presumed that people consciously set goals for themselves that guide and direct their behavior toward the attainment of these goals. These people also engage in self-monitoring or self-evaluation. Self-evaluation can be helped along if feedback is given when a person is working on their goals because it can align how a person feels about how they are doing to achieve a goal and what they are actually doing to achieve their goals. In short, feedback provides an &quot;error&quot; message that a person who is off-track can reevaluate their goal.&lt;ref name=&quot;Mu&quot;/&gt; This theory has been linked to [[Goal setting]] and Goal Setting Theory, which has been mentioned [[Work motivation#Goal-setting theory|above]]. ===Work engagement=== {{See also|Work engagement|Flow (psychology)}} A new approach to work motivation is the idea of Work Engagement or &quot;A conception of motivation whereby individuals are physically immersed in emotionally and intellectually fulfilling work.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Mu&quot;/&gt; This theory draws on many aspects of I/O Psychology. This theory proposes that motivation taps into [[Energy (psychological)|energy]] where it allows a person to focus on a task. According to Schaufeli and Bakker&lt;ref name=&quot;Scha&quot;&gt;Schaufeli, W. B., &amp; Bakker, A. B. (2010), Defining and measuring work engagement:Bringing clarity to the concept. In A.B. Bakker &amp; M.P. Leither (Eds.) 'work engagement:A handbook of essential theory and research' (pp10-24). New York: Psychological Press&lt;/ref&gt; there are three dimensions to work engagement. *Vigor- a sense of personal energy for work *Dedication- experiencing a sense of pride in one's work and challenge from it *Absorption- The Capacity to be engrossed in work and experiencing a sense of flow. Work Engagement forwards the notion that individuals have the ability to contribute more to their own productivity than organizations typically allow. An example would be to allow workers to take some risks and not punish them if the risks leads to unsuccessful outcomes. &quot;In short, work engagement can be thought of as an interaction of individuals and work. Engagement can occur when both facilitate each other, and engagement will not occur when either (or both) thwarts each other.&quot;&lt;ref name=Mu/&gt; Some critics of work engagement say that this is nothing new, just &quot;old wine in a new bottle.&quot; ==Applications of motivation== ===Organizational reward systems=== Organizational reward systems have a significant impact on employees' level of motivation. Rewards can be either [[tangible]] or intangible. Various forms of pay, such as [[salary]], commissions, bonuses, employee ownership programs and various types of profit or gain sharing programs, are all important tangible rewards. While fringe benefits have a positive impact on attraction and retention, their direct impact on motivation and performance is not well-defined.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; Salaries play a crucial role in the tangible reward system. They are an important factor in attracting new talent to an organization as well as retaining talent. Compensating employees well is one way for an organization to reinforce an employee's value to the organization. If an organization is known for paying their employees top dollar, then they may develop a positive reputation in the job market as a result. Through incentive compensation structures, employees can be guided to focus their attention and efforts on certain organizational goals. The goals that are reinforced through incentive pay should be carefully considered to make sure they are in alignment with the organizational objectives. If there are multiple rewards programs, it is important to consider if there might be any conflicting goals. For example, individual and team-based rewards can sometime work at cross-purposes. Important forms of intangible rewards include praise, recognition and rewards. Intangible rewards are ones from which an employee does not derive any material gain.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; Such rewards have the greatest impact when they soon follow the desired behavior and are closely tied to the performance. If an organization wants to use praise or other intangible rewards effectively, praise should be offered for a high level of performance and for things that they employee has control over. Some studies have shown that praise can be as effective as tangible rewards.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; Other forms of intangible performance include status symbols, such as a corner office, and increased autonomy and freedom. Increased autonomy demonstrates trust in an employee, may decrease [[occupational stress]] and improve [[job satisfaction]]. A 2010 study found positive relationships between job satisfaction and [[life satisfaction]], [[happiness at work]], positive affect, and the absence of negative affect which may also be interrelated with work motivation.&lt;ref&gt;Bowling, K., Eschleman, J., &amp; Wang, Q (2010). A meta-analytic examination of the relationship between job satisfaction and subjective well-being. ''Journal of Occupational and Organizational Psychology, 83''(4), 915-934.&lt;/ref&gt; Since it may be hard for an employee to achieve a similar level of trust in a new organization, increased autonomy may also help improve retention.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; ===Motivation through design of work=== Reward-based systems are certainly the more common practice for attempting to influence motivation within an organization, but some employers strive to design the work itself to be more conducive. There are multiple ways an organization can leverage job design principles to increase motivation. Three of the predominant approaches will be discussed here: the Humanistic Approach, the Job Characteristics Approach, and the Interdisciplinary Approach.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; ;Humanistic Approach The Humanistic Approach to job design was a reaction to &quot;worker dissatisfaction over Scientific Management&quot; and focused on providing employees with more input and an opportunity to maximize their personal achievement as referenced by Jex and Britt. Jobs should also provide intellectual stimulation, opportunities for creativity, and greater discretion over work-related activities. Two approaches used in the Humanistic Approach to job design are job rotation and job enrichment. Job rotation allows employees to switch to different jobs which allows them to learn new skills and provides them with greater variety. According to Jex and Britt, this would be most effective for simple jobs that can become mundane and boring over time. Job enrichment is focused on leveraging those aspects of jobs that are labeled motivators, such as control, intellectual challenge, and creativity. The most common form of job enrichment is vertical loading where additional tasks or discretion enhances the initial job design. While there is some evidence to support that job enrichment improves motivation, it is important to note that it is not effective for all people. Some employees are not more motivated by enriched jobs.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; ;Job Characteristics Approach The Job Characteristics Approach to job design is based on how core dimensions affect motivation. These dimensions include autonomy, variety, significance, feedback, and identity. The goal of JCT job design is to utilize specific interventions in an effort to enhance these core dimensions. # Vertical Loading – Like the tactic used in the Humanistic Job Enrichment approach, this intervention is designed to enhance autonomy, task identity, task significance, and skill variety by increasing the number of tasks and providing greater levels of control over how those tasks are completed. # Task Combination – By combining tasks into larger units of work and responsibility, task identity may be improved. # Natural Work Units – A form of task combination that represents a logical body of work and responsibility that may enhance both task significance and task identity. # Establishing Client Relationships – Designs interactions between employees and customers, both internal and external, to enhance task identity, feedback, and task significance. This is accomplished by improving the visibility of beneficial effects on customers. # Feedback – By designing open feedback channels, this intervention attempts to increase the amount and value of feedback received. The process of designing work so as to enhance individual motivation to perform the work is called [[Job enrichment]]&lt;ref name=&quot;Mu&quot;/&gt; While the JCT approach to job design has a significant impact on [[job satisfaction]], the effects on performance are more mixed. Much of the success of implementation of JCT practices is dependent on the organization carefully planning interventions and changes to ensure impact throughout the organization is anticipated. Many companies may have difficulty implementing JCT changes throughout the organization due to its high cost and complexity.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; ;Interdisciplinary Approach One of the most recent approaches to work design, the Interdisciplinary Approach is based on the use of careful assessment of current job design, followed by a cost/benefit analysis, and finally changes based on the area in which a job is lacking. The assessment is conducted using the Multi-method Job Design Questionnaire, which is used to determine if the job is deficient in the areas of motivational, mechanistic, biological, or perceptual motor support. Motivational improvements are aligned with the Job Characteristics theory dimensions. Mechanistic improvements are focused on improving the efficiency of the job design. Biological improvements focus on improvements to ergonomics, health conditions, and employee comfort. Finally, perceptual motor improvements focus on the nature and presentation of the information an employee must work with. If improvements are identified using the questionnaire, the company then evaluates the cost of making the improvements and determines if the potential gains in motivation and performance justify those costs. Because of the analysis and cost/benefit components of the Interdisciplinary Approach, it is often less costly for organizations and implementations can be more effective. Only changes deemed to be appropriate investments are made, thus improving motivation, productivity, and [[job satisfaction]] while controlling costs.&lt;ref name=Jex/&gt; ==Other factors affecting motivation== ===Creativity=== On the cutting edge of research pertaining to motivation in the workplace is the integration of motivation and creativity. Essentially, according to Ambrose and Kulik,&lt;ref name=&quot;Ambrose&quot; /&gt; the same variables that predict intrinsic motivation are associated with creativity. This is a helpful conclusion in that organizations can measure and influence both creativity and motivation simultaneously. Further, allowing employees to choose creative and challenging jobs/tasks has been shown to improve motivation.&lt;ref name=&quot;Pinder&quot; /&gt; Malmelin and Virta indicate creating new processes or procedures goes along with the jobs/task.&lt;ref&gt;Malmelin &amp; Virta (2016). Managing creativity in change: Motivations and constrains of creative work in a media organization. Journalism Practice.&lt;/ref&gt; In order to increase creativity, setting &quot;creativity goals&quot; can positively influence the process, along with allowing more autonomy (i.e., giving employees freedom to feel/be creative). Other studies have found that team support may enable more creativity in a group setting,&lt;ref&gt;West, M.; Anderson, N. (1996). Innovation in top management teams. ''Journal of Applied Psychology'', 81, 680–93.&lt;/ref&gt; also increasing motivation. Keeping creative employees productive and satisfied could be the key to retaining even the most difficult employees.&lt;ref&gt;Chamorro-Premuzic, Tomas; Seven rules for managing creative-but-difficult people. HBR&lt;/ref&gt; ===Groups and teams=== As the workplace is changing to include more group-based systems, researching motivation within these groups is of growing importance. To date, a great amount of research has focused on the Job characteristic theory and the Goal-setting Theory. While more research is needed that draws on a broader range of motivation theories, research thus far has concluded several things: (a) semi-autonomous groups report higher levels of job scope (related to intrinsic [[job satisfaction]]), extrinsic satisfaction, and [[organizational commitment]]; and (b) developmentally mature teams have higher job motivation and innovation. Further, voluntarily formed work teams report high work motivation.&lt;ref name=&quot;Ambrose&quot;/&gt; Though research shows that appropriate goal-setting influences group motivation and performance, more research is needed in this area (group goals, individual goals, cohesiveness, etc.). There are inseparable mediating variables consisting of group cohesiveness, commitment, and performance. As the workplace environment calls for more and more teams to be formed, research into motivation of teams is ever-pressing. Thus far, overarching research merely suggests that individual-level and team-level sources of motivation are congruent with each other.&lt;ref&gt;Kozlowski, S. &amp; Bell, B. (2003). Work groups and teams in organizations. ''Handbook of Psychology'' (12): Industrial and Organizational Psychology, 333–75.&lt;/ref&gt; Consequently, research should be expanded to apply more theories of motivation; look at group dynamics; and essentially conclude how groups can be most impacted to increase motivation and, consequently, performance. ===Culture=== [[Organizational culture]]s can be broken down into three groups: Strong, Strategically Appropriate, and Adaptive.&lt;ref name=&quot;Kotter&quot;&gt;Kotter, J. &amp; Heskett, J. (1992). ''Corporate Culture and Performance''. New York, NY: The Free Press.&lt;/ref&gt; Each has been identified with high performing organizations and has particular implications on motivation in the workplace. ;Strength The most widely reported effect of culture on performance is that strong cultures result in high performance.&lt;ref name=&quot;Kotter&quot;/&gt; The three reasons for this are goal alignment, motivation, and the resulting structure provided. Goal alignment is driven by the proposed unified voice that drives employees in the same direction. Motivation comes from the strength of values and principles in such a culture. And structure is provided by these same attributes which obviate the need for formal controls that could stifle employees. There are questions that concern researchers about causality and the veracity of the driving voice of a strong culture. ;Strategic Appropriateness A strategically appropriate culture motivates due to the direct support for performance in the market and industry: &quot;The better the fit, the better the performance; the poorer the fit, the poorer the performance,&quot; state Kotter &amp; Heskett.&lt;ref name=&quot;Kotter&quot;/&gt; There is an appeal to the idea that cultures are designed around the operations conditions a firm encounters although an outstanding issue is the question of adapting culture to changes in the environment. ;Adaptability Another perspective in culture literature asserts that in order for an organization to perform at a high level over a long period of time, it must be able to adapt to changes in the environment. According to Ralph Kilmann, in such a culture &quot;there is a shared feeling of confidence: the members believe, without a doubt, that they can effectively manage whatever new problems and opportunities will come their way.&quot; In effect, the culture is infused with a high degree of self-efficacy and confidence. As with the strong culture, critics point to the fact that the theory provides nothing in the way of appropriate direction of adaptation that leads to high performance. ;Competing Values Framework Another perspective on culture and motivation comes from the work of Cameron &amp; Quinn&lt;ref name=&quot;Cameron&quot;&gt;Cameron, Kim &amp; Quinn, Robert, (2006). ''Diagnosing and Changing Organizational Culture: Based on the Competing Values Framework''. San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass.&lt;/ref&gt; and the Competing Values Framework. They divide cultures into four quadrants: Clan, Adhocracy, Market, Hierarchy, with particular characteristics that directly affect employee motivation. * ''Clan'' cultures are collaborative and driven by values such as commitment, communication, and individual development. Motivation results from human development, employee engagement, and a high degree of open communication. * ''Adhocracy'' cultures are creative and innovative. Motivation in such cultures arises from finding creative solutions to problems, continually improving, and empowering agility. * ''Market'' cultures focus on value to the customer and are typically competitive and aggressive. Motivation in the market culture results from winning in the marketplace and creating external partnerships. * And finally, ''Hierarchy'' cultures value control, efficiency, and predictability. Motivation in such a culture relies on effectiveness, capability, and consistency. Effective hierarchy cultures have developed mature and capable processes which support smooth operations. Culture has been shown to directly affect organizational performance. When viewed through the lens of accepted behaviors and ingrained values, culture also profoundly affects motivation. Whether one looks at the type of culture—strong, strategically appropriate, or adaptive—as Kotter &amp; Heskett do,&lt;ref name=&quot;Kotter&quot;/&gt; or at the style of culture—Clan, Adhocracy, Market, or Hierarchy—as Cameron &amp; Quinn do,&lt;ref name= &quot;Cameron&quot;/&gt; the connection between culture and motivation becomes clear and provides insights into how to hire, task, and motivate employees. '''Personality Approach''' Personality traits, pre-dispositions, and behaviors can have an outcome on work motivation. Influences can be conceptualized in the Big Five trait theory (Barrick &amp; Mount, 1991; John &amp; Srivastava, 1999). There are two types of personalities: Type A and Type B. Type A's are considered more dominant, aggressive, and work oriented. Type B's are detail focused, task oriented, and possess higher self-control. Individual perceptions may differ based on the job stressor or outcome (Day, &amp; Jreige, 2002).&lt;ref&gt;Day, &amp; Jreige, (2002). Examining type A behavior pattern to explain the relationship between job stressors and psychosocial outcomes. Journal of Occupational Health Psychology.&lt;/ref&gt; Work demands that reflect on personality attributes can depend on tasks, job complexity, relationships, and work stress. The personality attributes most important for your workplace comes down to understanding the organizational work behaviors, characteristics of the jobs, and future strategies of the company.&lt;ref&gt;Sackett &amp; Walmsley. (2014). Which personality attributes are most important in the workplace? Perspectives on Psychological Science.&lt;/ref&gt; Personalities can be an influence on creativity in the workforce and behavioral expectations. ==See also== *[[Public service motivation]] ==References== {{Reflist|30em}} {{Authority control}} [[Category:Motivation]] [[Category:Industrial and organizational psychology]] [[Category:Workplace]] [[zh-yue:工作動機]]</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:176.98.41.150&diff=1259696391</id> <title>User talk:176.98.41.150</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:176.98.41.150&diff=1259696391"/> <updated>2024-11-26T15:50:32Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing to prevent further vandalism. <hr /> <div>== November 2024 == [[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop. If you continue to blank out or remove portions of page content, templates, or other materials from Wikipedia without adequate explanation, you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. &lt;!-- Template:uw-delete3 --&gt; &lt;span style=&quot;border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F&quot;&gt;[[User:Remsense|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;'''Remsense'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;‥&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;[[User talk:Remsense|&lt;span lang=&quot;zh&quot; style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;'''论'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 10:28, 22 November 2024 (UTC) [[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|alt=Stop icon]] You may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further warning''' the next time you [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia. &lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism4 --&gt; &lt;span style=&quot;border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F&quot;&gt;[[User:Remsense|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;'''Remsense'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;‥&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;[[User talk:Remsense|&lt;span lang=&quot;zh&quot; style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;'''论'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 10:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC) &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:Widr|Widr]] ([[User talk:Widr|talk]]) 10:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt; [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for reverting your recent experiment. Please take a look at the [[Help:Introduction|welcome page]] to learn more about contributing to the encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment further, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]] instead, as someone could see your edit before you revert it. Thank you. &lt;!-- Template:uw-selfrevert --&gt; &lt;!-- Template:uw-cluebotwarning1 --&gt; — [[User:Red-tailed hawk|&lt;span style=&quot;color: #660000&quot;&gt;Red-tailed&amp;nbsp;hawk&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Red-tailed hawk|&lt;span style=&quot;color: #660000&quot;&gt;(nest)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 15:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''1 week''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 15:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism/TB2&diff=1259694040</id> <title>Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism/TB2</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism/TB2&diff=1259694040"/> <updated>2024-11-26T15:34:14Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: /* Bot-reported */ Reply <hr /> <div>&lt;noinclude&gt;{{pp-semi|small=yes}}{{pp-move-indef}}{{Noticeboard links}}{{noadminbacklog|bot=HBC AIV helperbot14}}&lt;!-- v2.0.29 RemoveBlocked=On MergeDuplicates=On AutoMark=On FixInstructions=Off AutoBacklog=On AddLimit=5 RemoveLimit=2 --&gt;&lt;/noinclude&gt; === [[Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism/TB2|Bot-reported]] === * {{IPvandal|103.178.205.237}} – Tripped [[Special:AbuseFilter/809|filter 809]] twice in the last 5 minutes (Possible SPI/Project space disruption, [{{fullurl:Special:AbuseLog|wpSearchUser=103.178.205.237}} details]). {{False positive other/Link|username=103.178.205.237|description=Reported by DatBot to AIV/TB2|filterid=809}}. [[User:DatBot|DatBot]] ([[User talk:DatBot|talk]]) 14:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC) * {{Vandal|1=Ravan009}} – Tripped [[Special:AbuseFilter/809|filter 809]] twice in the last 5 minutes (Possible SPI/Project space disruption, [{{fullurl:Special:AbuseLog|wpSearchUser=Ravan009}} details]). {{False positive other/Link|username=Ravan009|description=Reported by DatBot to AIV/TB2|filterid=809}}. [[User:DatBot|DatBot]] ([[User talk:DatBot|talk]]) 14:47, 26 November 2024 (UTC) * {{Vandal|1=Xoontor}} – Tripped [[Special:AbuseFilter/1311|filter 1311]] (LTA 1311, [{{fullurl:Special:AbuseLog|wpSearchUser=Xoontor}} details]). Note: Please see the comment(s) at the top of filter 1311 before taking any action. {{False positive other/Link|username=Xoontor|description=Reported by DatBot to AIV/TB2|filterid=1311|logid=39338975|page=User talk:72.2.158.140}}. [[User:DatBot|DatBot]] ([[User talk:DatBot|talk]]) 15:16, 26 November 2024 (UTC) *:{{aiv|fp}} [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 15:34, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:112.160.19.106&diff=1259688413</id> <title>User talk:112.160.19.106</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:112.160.19.106&diff=1259688413"/> <updated>2024-11-26T14:55:55Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. <hr /> <div>== November 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:Paper9oll|Paper9oll]]. I wanted to let you know that one or more of [[Special:Contributions/112.160.19.106|your recent contributions]] have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the [[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]] or the [[Wikipedia:Help desk|Help desk]]. Thanks.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --&gt; '''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f535aa&quot;&gt;—&lt;/span&gt; [[User:Paper9oll|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#f535aa;color:#fff;padding:2px;border-radius:5px&quot;&gt;Paper9oll&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;color:#f535aa&quot;&gt;([[User talk:Paper9oll|🔔]] • [[Special:Contributions/Paper9oll|📝]])&lt;/span&gt;''' 14:09, 26 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Minji (singer)]]. Your edits appear to constitute [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]] and have been [[Help:Reverting|reverted]]. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. Repeated vandalism may result in the [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|loss of editing privileges]]. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism2 --&gt; '''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f535aa&quot;&gt;—&lt;/span&gt; [[User:Paper9oll|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#f535aa;color:#fff;padding:2px;border-radius:5px&quot;&gt;Paper9oll&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;color:#f535aa&quot;&gt;([[User talk:Paper9oll|🔔]] • [[Special:Contributions/Paper9oll|📝]])&lt;/span&gt;''' 14:09, 26 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]], as done at [[:Hyein]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 14:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki_talk:Titleblacklist&diff=1259685802</id> <title>MediaWiki talk:Titleblacklist</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki_talk:Titleblacklist&diff=1259685802"/> <updated>2024-11-26T14:38:43Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: Reverted edit by 95.191.32.63 (talk) to last version by HJ Mitchell <hr /> <div>{{Request edit button}} {{Interface explanation|[[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist]], the disallowed titles list, is used to prevent uploads, page moves, or creations/edits to certain pages. Depending on the entry in the disallowed titles list, some page titles can be edited by [[WP:autoconfirmed users|autoconfirmed users]] as well.}} {{Noticeboard links}} &lt;div style=&quot;background-color: #ecfcf4; border: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 2px 0;padding: 1em;&quot;&gt; :''The following instructions were copied from [[mw:Extension:Title Blacklist]].'' The disallowed titles list is maintained as a system message [[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist]]. This page consists of regular expressions, each on a separate line. For example: Foo &lt;autoconfirmed|noedit|errmsg=blacklisted-testpage&gt; Bar #No one should create article about it There is no need to use &quot;^&quot; at the beginning and &quot;$&quot; at the end; these are added automatically. Each entry may also contain optional attributes, enclosed in &lt;code&gt;&amp;lt;&amp;gt;&lt;/code&gt; and divided by &lt;code&gt;|&lt;/code&gt; * '''autoconfirmed''' — only non-autoconfirmed users are unable to create/upload/move such pages * '''noedit''' — users are also unable to edit this page * '''casesensitive''' — don't ignore case when checking title for being disallowed * '''errmsg''' — the name of the message that should be displayed instead of standard When the action is blocked, one of the following messages is displayed together with the filter row (as $1): [[MediaWiki:titleblacklist-forbidden-edit|titleblacklist-forbidden-edit]], [[MediaWiki:titleblacklist-forbidden-move|titleblacklist-forbidden-move]], [[MediaWiki:titleblacklist-forbidden-new-account|titleblacklist-forbidden-new-account]] or [[MediaWiki:titleblacklist-forbidden-upload|titleblacklist-forbidden-upload]]. Generic filenames have their own custom error message, [[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-custom-imagename]]. There is also [[MediaWiki:Titlewhitelist]] and a [[m:Title blacklist|global title blacklist]]. Only [[Wikipedia:Administrators|administrators]], [[Wikipedia:Page mover|page movers]] and [[Wikipedia:Template editor|template editors]] can override this list on all actions. When they override this list when creating or editing a page, [[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-warning]] is displayed. [[Wikipedia:Account creator|Account creators]] can override this list on account creations only. The disallowed usernames list is handled at [[meta:Title blacklist]] by adding entries with the &lt;newaccountonly&gt; parameter. &lt;/div&gt; {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{Aan}} |maxarchivesize = 100K |counter = 7 |minthreadsleft = 5 |algo = old(180d) |archive = MediaWiki talk:Titleblacklist/Archive %(counter)d }} {{Archives|search=yes|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III|age=180}} __TOC__ == Blacklist curly quote? == Per [[MOS:CURLY]], we should almost always use straight quotes in titles. There are currently ~20 articles with curly quotes in the title, and for a while I was moving one every few days to use the proper symbol, indicating that the rule is being rampantly ignored. I suggest we enforce it by adding &lt;code&gt;’&lt;/code&gt; (which seems to be much more common than the other characters) to the title blacklist, with a custom error message and possibly with restrictions on namespace. Thoughts? [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 04:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC) : We already have a similar in spirit rule for blacklisting full-width characters, and have since 2008 ([[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-custom-fullwidth]]). [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 04:50, 31 March 2024 (UTC) :: I've created an error message at [[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-custom-curly-quote]] (not currently used). The exact rule to add would be &lt;code&gt;.*’.* &lt;errmsg=titleblacklist-custom-curly-quote&lt;/code&gt;. Does this seem reasonable to anyone else here? [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 02:21, 20 April 2024 (UTC) ::: I intend to add this in a few days if there are no further comments. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 16:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC) :::: {{done}} [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 23:24, 30 May 2024 (UTC) :I recognize I'm late to the discussion, but I would like to raise an objection&amp;mdash;redirects. :As an example, the page [[Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland]] (with the curly mark; redirects to [[Alice's Adventures in Wonderland]]) received about [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&amp;platform=all-access&amp;agent=user&amp;redirects=0&amp;start=2024-03-29&amp;end=2024-06-27&amp;pages=Alice%E2%80%99s_Adventures_in_Wonderland 48&amp;nbsp;pageviews in the 90&amp;nbsp;days before 28&amp;nbsp;June&amp;nbsp;2024]. I'd say that's more than enough people to accomodate. They're finding the page by using the curly apostrophe, and that means that the redirects are useful. If the redirects don't exist, then a user will simply be shown a confusing and unhelpful 404 page. :On the date of [[Wikipedia:Today's featured article/May 31, 2024|31&amp;nbsp;May&amp;nbsp;2024's featured article highlight]], where the page [[Hundred Years' War]] was linked to (although it was not the featured article itself), there were [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&amp;platform=all-access&amp;agent=user&amp;redirects=0&amp;start=2024-03-29&amp;end=2024-06-27&amp;pages=Hundred_Years%E2%80%99_War 209&amp;nbsp;pageviews] of the redirect with the curly mark ([[Hundred Years’ War]]), even though the redirect itself was not linked to. I don't know exactly what this means, but the redirect here is also clearly very useful. :Many of the redirects do ''already'' exist, but for future articles (and several current articles) they may not. That means that users have to ask someone with permissions to create the page, which, unfortunately, people usually don't take time to do, meaning that the redirect doesn't get created, meaning THE END OF THE WORLD! :The Wikipedia search bar converts curly marks to straight marks (just like how it's case-insensitive) if needed, but if an ''exact'' match exists instead (such as a redirect) it will take the user there instead; so some of these pageviews might have been okay even without the redirects. However, links and direct URLs are ''not'' converted, resulting in the confusion I was talking about earlier. :I suggest that the protection level for the &lt;code&gt;’&lt;/code&gt; mark should at least be leveled down to allow autoconfirmed users to create the page, so that redirects with curly apostrophes can be created. &lt;span lang=&quot;en&quot;&gt;&amp;mdash;&amp;nbsp;[[:User:Gabldotink|gabldotink]] &lt;small&gt;[&amp;nbsp;[[:User talk:Gabldotink|talk]]&amp;nbsp;&amp;#124;&amp;nbsp;[[:Special:Contributions/Gabldotink|contribs]]&amp;nbsp;&amp;#124;&amp;nbsp;[[m:Special:CentralAuth/Gabldotink|global account]]&amp;nbsp;]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:07, 28 June 2024 (UTC) :: I've added the curly quote to [[Template:New page DYM]] so titles with curly quotes show a &quot;did you mean&quot; box even if no redirect exists like [[Second Hundred Years’ War]]. Does that satisfy you? And for the record the search bar in my interface will automatically take you to the version with the straight quote even if no redirect exists. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 04:21, 29 June 2024 (UTC) == Request preemptive creation protection of &quot;Aleksandar Saša Trajkovski&quot; variations == At least two variations have been targets of global lock evasion by [[Special:Diff/1208672085|self-professed promoter]] or [[Special:Diff/1208723707|promoters]] using self-created sourcing: [[Aleksandar Saša Trajkovski]] and [[Aleksandar Sasha Trajkovski]] (the latter was a [[WP:GAMENAME]] and [[WP:PGAME]] creation). They are running a scheme going many years back (see AfD for an old article by the same individual/group: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Irena Jordanova]]; there also may be something at [[Talk:Irena Jordanova]]). An incident is described at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1149#Promoter generates online coverage in real time]]. Recently at [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Мкдвики]]. Plausible targets are &quot;Saša Trajkovski (writer)&quot; and &quot;Aleksandar S. Trajkovski&quot; (see [[Draft:Saša Trajkovski (writer)]]), plausibly &quot;Sasha Trajkovski (writer)&quot;, etc. [[Aleksandar Trajkovski]] is a footballer. {{pb}}{{u|Star Mississippi}} made a reference to salting in the SPI, but I don't think that anything was ever salted; this gave me an idea to ask for action here. I think that there was significant discussion, with multiple editors expressing concern over this activity. From where I see it, blacklisting should be a net positive. Thanks for considering. —[[User talk:Alalch E.|Alalch E.]] 14:46, 21 July 2024 (UTC) :I misread the logs and thought @[[User:CactusWriter|CactusWriter]] had SALTed it. :In the deleted history from {{userlinks|Doktortrajkovski}} there's reference to Александар Саша Трајковски on Macedonian wiki but it [https://mk.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=4651858 appears deleted]. (Not sure whether anyone reads Macedonian) so likely cross wiki spam. :Not helpful on the tech side at all, but I support any action here. [[User:Star Mississippi|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#be33ff;&quot;&gt;Star&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Star Mississippi|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff33da;&quot;&gt;Mississippi&lt;/span&gt;]] 15:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC) ::The legitimate [[Aleksandar Trajkovski]] article greatly limits what we're able to do here without interfering with its talk page archives and other subpages, and (more hypothetically) nominations for deletion. (Lots of other {{search link|intitle:Trajkovski|titles containing &quot;Trajkovski&quot;}}, too.) I suppose we could blacklist everywhere except in the talk and Wikipedia namespaces. Trying to look for disambiguators would be futile.{{pb}}Initial analysis [[quarry:query/84985|here]]. Are the draft pages (deleted) and/or user pages (not deleted) problematic? Anything whose creation should have been prevented that doesn't show up on that list? —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 15:58, 21 July 2024 (UTC) :::There's been a Cyrillic-titled draft at [[Draft:Александар Саша Трајковски]], so perhaps what should also be prevented, that is not in the list, are the following: Mainspace page with titles including Александар Саша Трајковски, Александар С. Трајковски, Саша Трајковски. In general, variations without &quot;Aleksandar&quot;, i.e. Saša Trajkovski, Sasha Trajkovski and Саша Трајковски seem plausible to me.{{pb}}Creation of drafts and user pages is not a real concern in my view. Blacklisting everywhere except in talk and project would be great, and blacklisting only in mainspace seems OK to me as well.{{pb}}(Side note: the oldest page in the list is [[User:Primarius Dr.Aleksandar Trajkovski|from 2010]]). —[[User talk:Alalch E.|Alalch E.]] 17:24, 21 July 2024 (UTC) ::::The first two non-Aleksandar variations are caught by the &lt;code&gt;sa\w+a\b&lt;/code&gt; alternative. Cyrillic titles would have to be blacklisted separately, and since false positives are less harmful here - we can handle edit requests to create redirects, which is all they should ever be - they can be covered with something like &lt;code&gt;(Александар|Саша).*Трајковски&lt;/code&gt;. Blacklisting in mainspace only is difficult, since the match is done on the full page title and mainspace titles are defined by ''not'' having any of a long list of other namespaces' prefixes; but easy enough to allow Draft: in addition to the Talk: and Wikipedia: and Wikipedia talk: mentioned in the description of my query. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 17:57, 21 July 2024 (UTC) :::::Got it. Thank you. —[[User talk:Alalch E.|Alalch E.]] 21:21, 21 July 2024 (UTC) ::Following closure of the SPI and the subsequent G5 deletion, both [[Aleksandar Sasha Trajkovski]] and [[Aleksandar Saša Trajkovski]] are now salted. &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: tahoma;&quot;&gt; — [[User:CactusWriter|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#008000&quot;&gt;Cactus&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#CC5500&quot;&gt;Writer &lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:CactusWriter|(talk)]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 17:07, 22 July 2024 (UTC) :[[Special:Diff/1236060562|Done]]. The salting at [[Aleksandar Sasha Trajkovski]] isn't entirely redundant (blacklisted titles can also be created by pagemovers and templateeditors); but I see no protection at [[Aleksandar Saša Trajkovski]]. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 17:48, 22 July 2024 (UTC) ::{{done}} Resalted. &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: tahoma;&quot;&gt; — [[User:CactusWriter|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#008000&quot;&gt;Cactus&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#CC5500&quot;&gt;Writer &lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:CactusWriter|(talk)]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:10, 23 July 2024 (UTC) == Request preemptive creation protection of &quot;American Communist Party&quot; == After a unanimous vote for deletion. The same author of the deleted page has started recreating the same content in different titles. [[User:Ahri Boy|Ahri Boy]] ([[User talk:Ahri Boy|talk]]) 01:48, 27 July 2024 (UTC) :Also at [[WP:ANI#User continually recreating salted page at different titles]] ([[Special:Permalink/1236884377|permalink]]). Three titles, by a single user (currently blocked from creating pages), over a period of just three and a half days, doesn't usually merit a blacklisting. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 02:00, 27 July 2024 (UTC) == Edit request 27 July 2024 == {{edit fully-protected|answered=y}} '''Description of suggested change:''' Please add [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/talk]] and its subpages (and possibly also [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/Talk]] and its subpages) to the title blacklist. I see that [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/talk]] (subpage level 1), [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/talk/talk]] (subpage level 2), and [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/talk/talk/talk]] (subpage level 3) have all been created by sockpuppets. If the pattern continues, then [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/talk/talk/talk/talk]] (subpage level 4), [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/talk/talk/talk/talk/talk]] (subpage level 5), etc. could then also possibly be created by similar sockpuppets. '''Diff:''' {{TextDiff|1=|2=Wikipedia talk:Discord\/[Tt]alk.*}} [[User:GTrang|GTrang]] ([[User talk:GTrang|talk]]) 03:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC) :That regex won't match any of your redlinks (nor any other pages that have been created, whether existing or deleted). [[quarry:query/85144]] shows hits for &lt;code&gt;Wikipedia talk:discord\/talk.*&lt;/code&gt;. No strong position on the merits, but they do look slim to me. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 04:01, 27 July 2024 (UTC) :I have fixed my regex by removing the mistakenly added colon. [[User:GTrang|GTrang]] ([[User talk:GTrang|talk]]) 04:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC) ::[tT] isn't needed either; the regexes here are case-insensitive.{{pb}}Having looked at the deleted content, this looks like the sort of abuse that'll just move to a different title. See [[Wikipedia:Salting is usually a bad idea]]. That said, still I don't have a strong objection if some other admin wants to do this. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 04:16, 27 July 2024 (UTC) :::Don't think this is that useful, those disrupters will just create a different title - and I'd rather have them create nonsense buried there where it is easy to find, delete, and block them. — [[User:Xaosflux|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;&quot;&gt;xaosflux&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Xaosflux|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#009933;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 11:44, 27 July 2024 (UTC) :[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for this alteration '''[[Wikipedia:Edit requests|before]]''' using the {{Tlx|Edit protected}} template.&lt;!-- Template:EP --&gt; [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 21:57, 28 July 2024 (UTC) == Edit request 30 September 2024 == {{Edit fully-protected|answered=yes}} '''Description of suggested change:''' The first two entries in the &quot;excessive punctuation and repetition&quot; section look like they're trying to use lookahead assertions, but they use incorrect syntax; lookahead assertions should use equals signs where these rules use less-than signs. However, it's not really necessary to use lookahead assertions here anyway, so we should just replace these malformed lookahead assertions with strings of exclamation marks. '''Diff:''' {{TextDiff|1=.*[!?‽¿]{3}(?&lt;!!!!).* .*[!?‽¿]{2}(?&lt;!!!).* &lt;moveonly&gt;|2=.*[!?‽¿]{3}!!!!.* .*[!?‽¿]{2}!!!.* &lt;moveonly&gt;}} [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 19:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC) :No, they don't look like they're trying to use lookahead assertions. They look like - and are - negative lookbehind assertions. &lt;code&gt;[!?‽¿]{3}(?&lt;!!!!)&lt;/code&gt; matches any sequence of three &lt;code&gt;!&lt;/code&gt;, &lt;code&gt;?&lt;/code&gt;, &lt;code&gt;‽&lt;/code&gt;, or &lt;code&gt;¿&lt;/code&gt; characters in a row ''except'' three of &lt;code&gt;!&lt;/code&gt; - for example, [[Foo???]] and [[Foo?!!]] and [[Foo?!‽]] are all matched, but [[Foo!!!]] deliberately is not. It's not immediately obvious ''why'' that behavior is intended, but it clearly is; and your patterns would for example forbid [[Foo‽‽!!!!!]] but not [[Foo!!!!!‽‽]], which is nonsensical. The move-only pattern works the same for sequences of two or more. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 20:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC) : There are legitimate articles titled with three exclamation marks in a row like ''[[No, Thank You!!!]]''. That's probably why it wants to exclude that specifically. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 20:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC) ::[[Special:Diff/213415771|Here's the diff]] deliberately allowing !!!. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 20:13, 30 September 2024 (UTC) :My bad, for some reason I didn't read the first exclamation mark in each bracket as part of the assertion syntax&amp;mdash;I read it as part of the assertion text itself. [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 10:02, 5 October 2024 (UTC) == Protected edit request on 9 October 2024 == {{edit fully-protected|MediaWiki:Titleblacklist|answered=yes}} Combine these two rules: &lt;code&gt; .*on hueels.*&lt;br&gt; .*onhueels.* &lt;/code&gt;&lt;br&gt; That is, replace them with this: &lt;code&gt; .*on ?hueels.* &lt;/code&gt;&lt;br&gt; [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 18:48, 9 October 2024 (UTC) : {{done}} [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 16:10, 9 November 2024 (UTC) == Error message for accidental creation of WikiProjects in article space == The rule &lt;code&gt;WikiProject:.*&lt;/code&gt; doesn't specify a custom error message, so it will just use the default error message. How about we create a more helpful error message with text like 'You cannot create [[WikiProject:Foo]]&amp;mdash;creation of pages with titles starting with &quot;WikiProject:&quot; is forbidden because [[Wikipedia:WikiProject|WikiProject]]s are meant to go in the Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:Namespace|namespace]]. Please create the new WikiProject at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Foo]] instead.'? [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 20:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC) == Protected edit request on 29 October 2024 == {{edit fully-protected|MediaWiki:Titleblacklist|answered=yes}} Please add &lt;code&gt;.*blake.*alma.*&lt;/code&gt; per [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Blake Alma (numismatist) (2nd nomination)]]. Thanks. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 22:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :Done. (How did this take eleven years to blacklist?) —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 05:56, 30 October 2024 (UTC) == Unblack list Request == Hey, I was creating a list of articles today and found that the title [[Neeraj Singh Lodhi]] is blacklisted from being created. Could someone remove the blacklist so I can create the article or move my draft from [[User:GrabUp/sandbox/article]] to that title? [[User:GrabUp|&lt;span style=&quot;color:blue;&quot;&gt;Grab&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:red; font-size:larger;&quot;&gt;Up&lt;/span&gt;]] - [[User talk:GrabUp|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:20, 5 November 2024 (UTC) == Un-Blacklist Request == I tried to create a new article today called ''Dissenting POWs: From Vietnam’s Hoa Lo Prison to America Today'' and found that it is on the title blacklist. I have the article ready to go in my Sandbox. Please remove this title from the blacklist. Also, can you help me understand how this happened?[[User:JohnKent|JohnKent]] ([[User talk:JohnKent|talk]]) 17:03, 16 November 2024 (UTC) : Use a standard apostrophe rather than a curly quote. [[Dissenting POWs: From Vietnam's Hoa Lo Prison to America Today]] [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 17:20, 16 November 2024 (UTC) == Protected edit request on 17 November 2024 == {{edit fully-protected|MediaWiki:Titleblacklist|answered=yes}} Let's replace &lt;code&gt;.* shitt?ing in .*'?s? mouth&lt;/code&gt; with &lt;code&gt;.* shitt?ing in .* mouth&lt;/code&gt;&amp;mdash;&lt;code&gt;'?s?&lt;/code&gt; is redundant with &lt;code&gt;.*&lt;/code&gt;. [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 19:24, 17 November 2024 (UTC) : {{done}}. I wonder whether this rule needs to be here at all - it sounds like something one specific vandal wrote once and they're long gone. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 21:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::[[Special:Diff/416693018|Diff]]. We won't be getting any answers out of the admin who added it, and the pages must've been oversighted (surprise!) since there's no matches in the deletion or move logs for the preceding year. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 20:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::: That inspired me to dig deeper. And I found [[phab:T380322]], which I realized was a security vulnerability, but didn't get me anywhere closer to the goal. {{pb}} Then I looked at their [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?type=&amp;user=Od_Mishehu&amp;page=&amp;wpdate=2011-03-02&amp;tagfilter=&amp;wpfilters%5B%5D=newusers&amp;wpFormIdentifier=logeventslist logged actions at the time] and found a pretty interesting picture. And, well, I found the intended target there. {{pb}} Doesn't change my opinion that the rule is targeting a long-gone vandal and so not that useful. But also harmless, I guess. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 20:48, 19 November 2024 (UTC) == Protected edit request on 19 November 2024 == {{edit fully-protected|MediaWiki:Titleblacklist|answered=yes}} Let's remove &lt;code&gt;.*\.\.\.\.H.* &lt;moveonly&gt;&lt;/code&gt;, because it's redundant with &lt;code&gt;.*\.\.\.H.* &lt;moveonly&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 10:01, 19 November 2024 (UTC) : {{done}} [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 14:30, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:Pppery|Pppery]] It seems like you've removed the one with three dots rather than the one with four dots by mistake, so you've actually unblocked some page moves that were previously blocked. [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 19:23, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::: Hardly matters, but I've fixed it now. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 19:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::This kind of illustrates why I haven't been actioning these requests - it works as-is, the changes shouldn't have any effect, but making any sort of change might break it. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 20:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki_talk:Titleblacklist&diff=1259685334</id> <title>MediaWiki talk:Titleblacklist</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki_talk:Titleblacklist&diff=1259685334"/> <updated>2024-11-26T14:35:37Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: Reverted edit by 178.211.178.204 (talk) to last version by Pppery <hr /> <div>{{Request edit button}} {{Interface explanation|[[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist]], the disallowed titles list, is used to prevent uploads, page moves, or creations/edits to certain pages. Depending on the entry in the disallowed titles list, some page titles can be edited by [[WP:autoconfirmed users|autoconfirmed users]] as well.}} {{Noticeboard links}} &lt;div style=&quot;background-color: #ecfcf4; border: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 2px 0;padding: 1em;&quot;&gt; :''The following instructions were copied from [[mw:Extension:Title Blacklist]].'' The disallowed titles list is maintained as a system message [[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist]]. This page consists of regular expressions, each on a separate line. For example: Foo &lt;autoconfirmed|noedit|errmsg=blacklisted-testpage&gt; Bar #No one should create article about it There is no need to use &quot;^&quot; at the beginning and &quot;$&quot; at the end; these are added automatically. Each entry may also contain optional attributes, enclosed in &lt;code&gt;&amp;lt;&amp;gt;&lt;/code&gt; and divided by &lt;code&gt;|&lt;/code&gt; * '''autoconfirmed''' — only non-autoconfirmed users are unable to create/upload/move such pages * '''noedit''' — users are also unable to edit this page * '''casesensitive''' — don't ignore case when checking title for being disallowed * '''errmsg''' — the name of the message that should be displayed instead of standard When the action is blocked, one of the following messages is displayed together with the filter row (as $1): [[MediaWiki:titleblacklist-forbidden-edit|titleblacklist-forbidden-edit]], [[MediaWiki:titleblacklist-forbidden-move|titleblacklist-forbidden-move]], [[MediaWiki:titleblacklist-forbidden-new-account|titleblacklist-forbidden-new-account]] or [[MediaWiki:titleblacklist-forbidden-upload|titleblacklist-forbidden-upload]]. Generic filenames have their own custom error message, [[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-custom-imagename]]. There is also [[MediaWiki:Titlewhitelist]] and a [[m:Title blacklist|global title blacklist]]. Only [[Wikipedia:Administrators|administrators]], [[Wikipedia:Page mover|page movers]] and [[Wikipedia:Template editor|template editors]] can override this list on all actions. When they override this list when creating or editing a page, [[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-warning]] is displayed. [[Wikipedia:Account creator|Account creators]] can override this list on account creations only. The disallowed usernames list is handled at [[meta:Title blacklist]] by adding entries with the &lt;newaccountonly&gt; parameter. &lt;/div&gt; {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{Aan}} |maxarchivesize = 100K |counter = 7 |minthreadsleft = 5 |algo = old(180d) |archive = MediaWiki talk:Titleblacklist/Archive %(counter)d }} {{Archives|search=yes|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III|age=180}} __TOC__ == Blacklist curly quote? == Per [[MOS:CURLY]], we should almost always use straight quotes in titles. There are currently ~20 articles with curly quotes in the title, and for a while I was moving one every few days to use the proper symbol, indicating that the rule is being rampantly ignored. I suggest we enforce it by adding &lt;code&gt;’&lt;/code&gt; (which seems to be much more common than the other characters) to the title blacklist, with a custom error message and possibly with restrictions on namespace. Thoughts? [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 04:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC) : We already have a similar in spirit rule for blacklisting full-width characters, and have since 2008 ([[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-custom-fullwidth]]). [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 04:50, 31 March 2024 (UTC) :: I've created an error message at [[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-custom-curly-quote]] (not currently used). The exact rule to add would be &lt;code&gt;.*’.* &lt;errmsg=titleblacklist-custom-curly-quote&lt;/code&gt;. Does this seem reasonable to anyone else here? [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 02:21, 20 April 2024 (UTC) ::: I intend to add this in a few days if there are no further comments. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 16:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC) :::: {{done}} [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 23:24, 30 May 2024 (UTC) :I recognize I'm late to the discussion, but I would like to raise an objection&amp;mdash;redirects. :As an example, the page [[Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland]] (with the curly mark; redirects to [[Alice's Adventures in Wonderland]]) received about [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&amp;platform=all-access&amp;agent=user&amp;redirects=0&amp;start=2024-03-29&amp;end=2024-06-27&amp;pages=Alice%E2%80%99s_Adventures_in_Wonderland 48&amp;nbsp;pageviews in the 90&amp;nbsp;days before 28&amp;nbsp;June&amp;nbsp;2024]. I'd say that's more than enough people to accomodate. They're finding the page by using the curly apostrophe, and that means that the redirects are useful. If the redirects don't exist, then a user will simply be shown a confusing and unhelpful 404 page. :On the date of [[Wikipedia:Today's featured article/May 31, 2024|31&amp;nbsp;May&amp;nbsp;2024's featured article highlight]], where the page [[Hundred Years' War]] was linked to (although it was not the featured article itself), there were [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&amp;platform=all-access&amp;agent=user&amp;redirects=0&amp;start=2024-03-29&amp;end=2024-06-27&amp;pages=Hundred_Years%E2%80%99_War 209&amp;nbsp;pageviews] of the redirect with the curly mark ([[Hundred Years’ War]]), even though the redirect itself was not linked to. I don't know exactly what this means, but the redirect here is also clearly very useful. :Many of the redirects do ''already'' exist, but for future articles (and several current articles) they may not. That means that users have to ask someone with permissions to create the page, which, unfortunately, people usually don't take time to do, meaning that the redirect doesn't get created, meaning THE END OF THE WORLD! :The Wikipedia search bar converts curly marks to straight marks (just like how it's case-insensitive) if needed, but if an ''exact'' match exists instead (such as a redirect) it will take the user there instead; so some of these pageviews might have been okay even without the redirects. However, links and direct URLs are ''not'' converted, resulting in the confusion I was talking about earlier. :I suggest that the protection level for the &lt;code&gt;’&lt;/code&gt; mark should at least be leveled down to allow autoconfirmed users to create the page, so that redirects with curly apostrophes can be created. &lt;span lang=&quot;en&quot;&gt;&amp;mdash;&amp;nbsp;[[:User:Gabldotink|gabldotink]] &lt;small&gt;[&amp;nbsp;[[:User talk:Gabldotink|talk]]&amp;nbsp;&amp;#124;&amp;nbsp;[[:Special:Contributions/Gabldotink|contribs]]&amp;nbsp;&amp;#124;&amp;nbsp;[[m:Special:CentralAuth/Gabldotink|global account]]&amp;nbsp;]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:07, 28 June 2024 (UTC) :: I've added the curly quote to [[Template:New page DYM]] so titles with curly quotes show a &quot;did you mean&quot; box even if no redirect exists like [[Second Hundred Years’ War]]. Does that satisfy you? And for the record the search bar in my interface will automatically take you to the version with the straight quote even if no redirect exists. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 04:21, 29 June 2024 (UTC) == Request preemptive creation protection of &quot;Aleksandar Saša Trajkovski&quot; variations == At least two variations have been targets of global lock evasion by [[Special:Diff/1208672085|self-professed promoter]] or [[Special:Diff/1208723707|promoters]] using self-created sourcing: [[Aleksandar Saša Trajkovski]] and [[Aleksandar Sasha Trajkovski]] (the latter was a [[WP:GAMENAME]] and [[WP:PGAME]] creation). They are running a scheme going many years back (see AfD for an old article by the same individual/group: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Irena Jordanova]]; there also may be something at [[Talk:Irena Jordanova]]). An incident is described at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1149#Promoter generates online coverage in real time]]. Recently at [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Мкдвики]]. Plausible targets are &quot;Saša Trajkovski (writer)&quot; and &quot;Aleksandar S. Trajkovski&quot; (see [[Draft:Saša Trajkovski (writer)]]), plausibly &quot;Sasha Trajkovski (writer)&quot;, etc. [[Aleksandar Trajkovski]] is a footballer. {{pb}}{{u|Star Mississippi}} made a reference to salting in the SPI, but I don't think that anything was ever salted; this gave me an idea to ask for action here. I think that there was significant discussion, with multiple editors expressing concern over this activity. From where I see it, blacklisting should be a net positive. Thanks for considering. —[[User talk:Alalch E.|Alalch E.]] 14:46, 21 July 2024 (UTC) :I misread the logs and thought @[[User:CactusWriter|CactusWriter]] had SALTed it. :In the deleted history from {{userlinks|Doktortrajkovski}} there's reference to Александар Саша Трајковски on Macedonian wiki but it [https://mk.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=4651858 appears deleted]. (Not sure whether anyone reads Macedonian) so likely cross wiki spam. :Not helpful on the tech side at all, but I support any action here. [[User:Star Mississippi|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#be33ff;&quot;&gt;Star&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Star Mississippi|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff33da;&quot;&gt;Mississippi&lt;/span&gt;]] 15:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC) ::The legitimate [[Aleksandar Trajkovski]] article greatly limits what we're able to do here without interfering with its talk page archives and other subpages, and (more hypothetically) nominations for deletion. (Lots of other {{search link|intitle:Trajkovski|titles containing &quot;Trajkovski&quot;}}, too.) I suppose we could blacklist everywhere except in the talk and Wikipedia namespaces. Trying to look for disambiguators would be futile.{{pb}}Initial analysis [[quarry:query/84985|here]]. Are the draft pages (deleted) and/or user pages (not deleted) problematic? Anything whose creation should have been prevented that doesn't show up on that list? —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 15:58, 21 July 2024 (UTC) :::There's been a Cyrillic-titled draft at [[Draft:Александар Саша Трајковски]], so perhaps what should also be prevented, that is not in the list, are the following: Mainspace page with titles including Александар Саша Трајковски, Александар С. Трајковски, Саша Трајковски. In general, variations without &quot;Aleksandar&quot;, i.e. Saša Trajkovski, Sasha Trajkovski and Саша Трајковски seem plausible to me.{{pb}}Creation of drafts and user pages is not a real concern in my view. Blacklisting everywhere except in talk and project would be great, and blacklisting only in mainspace seems OK to me as well.{{pb}}(Side note: the oldest page in the list is [[User:Primarius Dr.Aleksandar Trajkovski|from 2010]]). —[[User talk:Alalch E.|Alalch E.]] 17:24, 21 July 2024 (UTC) ::::The first two non-Aleksandar variations are caught by the &lt;code&gt;sa\w+a\b&lt;/code&gt; alternative. Cyrillic titles would have to be blacklisted separately, and since false positives are less harmful here - we can handle edit requests to create redirects, which is all they should ever be - they can be covered with something like &lt;code&gt;(Александар|Саша).*Трајковски&lt;/code&gt;. Blacklisting in mainspace only is difficult, since the match is done on the full page title and mainspace titles are defined by ''not'' having any of a long list of other namespaces' prefixes; but easy enough to allow Draft: in addition to the Talk: and Wikipedia: and Wikipedia talk: mentioned in the description of my query. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 17:57, 21 July 2024 (UTC) :::::Got it. Thank you. —[[User talk:Alalch E.|Alalch E.]] 21:21, 21 July 2024 (UTC) ::Following closure of the SPI and the subsequent G5 deletion, both [[Aleksandar Sasha Trajkovski]] and [[Aleksandar Saša Trajkovski]] are now salted. &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: tahoma;&quot;&gt; — [[User:CactusWriter|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#008000&quot;&gt;Cactus&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#CC5500&quot;&gt;Writer &lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:CactusWriter|(talk)]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 17:07, 22 July 2024 (UTC) :[[Special:Diff/1236060562|Done]]. The salting at [[Aleksandar Sasha Trajkovski]] isn't entirely redundant (blacklisted titles can also be created by pagemovers and templateeditors); but I see no protection at [[Aleksandar Saša Trajkovski]]. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 17:48, 22 July 2024 (UTC) ::{{done}} Resalted. &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: tahoma;&quot;&gt; — [[User:CactusWriter|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#008000&quot;&gt;Cactus&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:#CC5500&quot;&gt;Writer &lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:CactusWriter|(talk)]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:10, 23 July 2024 (UTC) == Request preemptive creation protection of &quot;American Communist Party&quot; == After a unanimous vote for deletion. The same author of the deleted page has started recreating the same content in different titles. [[User:Ahri Boy|Ahri Boy]] ([[User talk:Ahri Boy|talk]]) 01:48, 27 July 2024 (UTC) :Also at [[WP:ANI#User continually recreating salted page at different titles]] ([[Special:Permalink/1236884377|permalink]]). Three titles, by a single user (currently blocked from creating pages), over a period of just three and a half days, doesn't usually merit a blacklisting. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 02:00, 27 July 2024 (UTC) == Edit request 27 July 2024 == {{edit fully-protected|answered=y}} '''Description of suggested change:''' Please add [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/talk]] and its subpages (and possibly also [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/Talk]] and its subpages) to the title blacklist. I see that [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/talk]] (subpage level 1), [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/talk/talk]] (subpage level 2), and [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/talk/talk/talk]] (subpage level 3) have all been created by sockpuppets. If the pattern continues, then [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/talk/talk/talk/talk]] (subpage level 4), [[Wikipedia talk:Discord/talk/talk/talk/talk/talk]] (subpage level 5), etc. could then also possibly be created by similar sockpuppets. '''Diff:''' {{TextDiff|1=|2=Wikipedia talk:Discord\/[Tt]alk.*}} [[User:GTrang|GTrang]] ([[User talk:GTrang|talk]]) 03:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC) :That regex won't match any of your redlinks (nor any other pages that have been created, whether existing or deleted). [[quarry:query/85144]] shows hits for &lt;code&gt;Wikipedia talk:discord\/talk.*&lt;/code&gt;. No strong position on the merits, but they do look slim to me. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 04:01, 27 July 2024 (UTC) :I have fixed my regex by removing the mistakenly added colon. [[User:GTrang|GTrang]] ([[User talk:GTrang|talk]]) 04:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC) ::[tT] isn't needed either; the regexes here are case-insensitive.{{pb}}Having looked at the deleted content, this looks like the sort of abuse that'll just move to a different title. See [[Wikipedia:Salting is usually a bad idea]]. That said, still I don't have a strong objection if some other admin wants to do this. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 04:16, 27 July 2024 (UTC) :::Don't think this is that useful, those disrupters will just create a different title - and I'd rather have them create nonsense buried there where it is easy to find, delete, and block them. — [[User:Xaosflux|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;&quot;&gt;xaosflux&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Xaosflux|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#009933;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 11:44, 27 July 2024 (UTC) :[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for this alteration '''[[Wikipedia:Edit requests|before]]''' using the {{Tlx|Edit protected}} template.&lt;!-- Template:EP --&gt; [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 21:57, 28 July 2024 (UTC) == Edit request 30 September 2024 == {{Edit fully-protected|answered=yes}} '''Description of suggested change:''' The first two entries in the &quot;excessive punctuation and repetition&quot; section look like they're trying to use lookahead assertions, but they use incorrect syntax; lookahead assertions should use equals signs where these rules use less-than signs. However, it's not really necessary to use lookahead assertions here anyway, so we should just replace these malformed lookahead assertions with strings of exclamation marks. '''Diff:''' {{TextDiff|1=.*[!?‽¿]{3}(?&lt;!!!!).* .*[!?‽¿]{2}(?&lt;!!!).* &lt;moveonly&gt;|2=.*[!?‽¿]{3}!!!!.* .*[!?‽¿]{2}!!!.* &lt;moveonly&gt;}} [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 19:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC) :No, they don't look like they're trying to use lookahead assertions. They look like - and are - negative lookbehind assertions. &lt;code&gt;[!?‽¿]{3}(?&lt;!!!!)&lt;/code&gt; matches any sequence of three &lt;code&gt;!&lt;/code&gt;, &lt;code&gt;?&lt;/code&gt;, &lt;code&gt;‽&lt;/code&gt;, or &lt;code&gt;¿&lt;/code&gt; characters in a row ''except'' three of &lt;code&gt;!&lt;/code&gt; - for example, [[Foo???]] and [[Foo?!!]] and [[Foo?!‽]] are all matched, but [[Foo!!!]] deliberately is not. It's not immediately obvious ''why'' that behavior is intended, but it clearly is; and your patterns would for example forbid [[Foo‽‽!!!!!]] but not [[Foo!!!!!‽‽]], which is nonsensical. The move-only pattern works the same for sequences of two or more. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 20:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC) : There are legitimate articles titled with three exclamation marks in a row like ''[[No, Thank You!!!]]''. That's probably why it wants to exclude that specifically. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 20:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC) ::[[Special:Diff/213415771|Here's the diff]] deliberately allowing !!!. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 20:13, 30 September 2024 (UTC) :My bad, for some reason I didn't read the first exclamation mark in each bracket as part of the assertion syntax&amp;mdash;I read it as part of the assertion text itself. [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 10:02, 5 October 2024 (UTC) == Protected edit request on 9 October 2024 == {{edit fully-protected|MediaWiki:Titleblacklist|answered=yes}} Combine these two rules: &lt;code&gt; .*on hueels.*&lt;br&gt; .*onhueels.* &lt;/code&gt;&lt;br&gt; That is, replace them with this: &lt;code&gt; .*on ?hueels.* &lt;/code&gt;&lt;br&gt; [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 18:48, 9 October 2024 (UTC) : {{done}} [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 16:10, 9 November 2024 (UTC) == Error message for accidental creation of WikiProjects in article space == The rule &lt;code&gt;WikiProject:.*&lt;/code&gt; doesn't specify a custom error message, so it will just use the default error message. How about we create a more helpful error message with text like 'You cannot create [[WikiProject:Foo]]&amp;mdash;creation of pages with titles starting with &quot;WikiProject:&quot; is forbidden because [[Wikipedia:WikiProject|WikiProject]]s are meant to go in the Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:Namespace|namespace]]. Please create the new WikiProject at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Foo]] instead.'? [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 20:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC) == Protected edit request on 29 October 2024 == {{edit fully-protected|MediaWiki:Titleblacklist|answered=yes}} Please add &lt;code&gt;.*blake.*alma.*&lt;/code&gt; per [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Blake Alma (numismatist) (2nd nomination)]]. Thanks. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 22:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :Done. (How did this take eleven years to blacklist?) —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 05:56, 30 October 2024 (UTC) == Unblack list Request == Hey, I was creating a list of articles today and found that the title [[Neeraj Singh Lodhi]] is blacklisted from being created. Could someone remove the blacklist so I can create the article or move my draft from [[User:GrabUp/sandbox/article]] to that title? [[User:GrabUp|&lt;span style=&quot;color:blue;&quot;&gt;Grab&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:red; font-size:larger;&quot;&gt;Up&lt;/span&gt;]] - [[User talk:GrabUp|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:20, 5 November 2024 (UTC) == Un-Blacklist Request == I tried to create a new article today called ''Dissenting POWs: From Vietnam’s Hoa Lo Prison to America Today'' and found that it is on the title blacklist. I have the article ready to go in my Sandbox. Please remove this title from the blacklist. Also, can you help me understand how this happened?[[User:JohnKent|JohnKent]] ([[User talk:JohnKent|talk]]) 17:03, 16 November 2024 (UTC) : Use a standard apostrophe rather than a curly quote. [[Dissenting POWs: From Vietnam's Hoa Lo Prison to America Today]] [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 17:20, 16 November 2024 (UTC) == Protected edit request on 17 November 2024 == {{edit fully-protected|MediaWiki:Titleblacklist|answered=yes}} Let's replace &lt;code&gt;.* shitt?ing in .*'?s? mouth&lt;/code&gt; with &lt;code&gt;.* shitt?ing in .* mouth&lt;/code&gt;&amp;mdash;&lt;code&gt;'?s?&lt;/code&gt; is redundant with &lt;code&gt;.*&lt;/code&gt;. [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 19:24, 17 November 2024 (UTC) : {{done}}. I wonder whether this rule needs to be here at all - it sounds like something one specific vandal wrote once and they're long gone. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 21:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::[[Special:Diff/416693018|Diff]]. We won't be getting any answers out of the admin who added it, and the pages must've been oversighted (surprise!) since there's no matches in the deletion or move logs for the preceding year. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 20:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::: That inspired me to dig deeper. And I found [[phab:T380322]], which I realized was a security vulnerability, but didn't get me anywhere closer to the goal. {{pb}} Then I looked at their [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?type=&amp;user=Od_Mishehu&amp;page=&amp;wpdate=2011-03-02&amp;tagfilter=&amp;wpfilters%5B%5D=newusers&amp;wpFormIdentifier=logeventslist logged actions at the time] and found a pretty interesting picture. And, well, I found the intended target there. {{pb}} Doesn't change my opinion that the rule is targeting a long-gone vandal and so not that useful. But also harmless, I guess. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 20:48, 19 November 2024 (UTC) == Protected edit request on 19 November 2024 == {{edit fully-protected|MediaWiki:Titleblacklist|answered=yes}} Let's remove &lt;code&gt;.*\.\.\.\.H.* &lt;moveonly&gt;&lt;/code&gt;, because it's redundant with &lt;code&gt;.*\.\.\.H.* &lt;moveonly&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 10:01, 19 November 2024 (UTC) : {{done}} [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 14:30, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:Pppery|Pppery]] It seems like you've removed the one with three dots rather than the one with four dots by mistake, so you've actually unblocked some page moves that were previously blocked. [[User:TTWIDEE|TTWIDEE]] ([[User talk:TTWIDEE|talk]]) 19:23, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::: Hardly matters, but I've fixed it now. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 19:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::This kind of illustrates why I haven't been actioning these requests - it works as-is, the changes shouldn't have any effect, but making any sort of change might break it. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 20:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&diff=1259682479</id> <title>Wikipedia:Help desk</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&diff=1259682479"/> <updated>2024-11-26T14:15:22Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: Reverted edit by 103.229.40.146 (talk) to last version by MusikBot II <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Page for questions relating to Wikipedia}} {{/Header}} {{skip to top and bottom}} [[Category:Wikipedia help pages with dated sections]] &lt;div style=&quot;width:51%;&quot;&gt;__TOC__&lt;/div&gt; &lt;!-- This page is for the answers you need to know about the use of Wikipedia! --&gt; &lt;!-- For queries and general knowledge questions, please use the [[Wikipedia:Reference Desk]]! --&gt; &lt;!-- Ask your question at the bottom of this page and it will be answered shortly! --&gt; = November 23 = == Scraping Wikipedia for AI Training == It is ok to using scraper to scrape Wikipedia for AI Training? [[User:6D|6D]] ([[User talk:6D|talk]]) 04:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi [[User:6D|6D]]. If you want to download a large number of Wikipedia pages, please do not use a web crawler, as the servers use considerable resources to convert [[wikimarkup]] to HTML. If you're downloading a {{em|small}} number of pages, leaving a small delay (at least a second per request) might be considered more reasonable, see also the page about [[Wikipedia:Database download#Why not just retrieve data from wikipedia.org at runtime?|database downloads]], which has more information about this and how to get a database download instead. You are legally allowed to use content under the CC BY-SA 3.0 licence. You can also reach out to the Wikimedia Foundation's Machine Learning Team ([[mw:Machine Learning]]) if you think there's anything you can contribute back. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 06:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::It will get IP blocked if you scarping too fast? [[User:6D|6D]] ([[User talk:6D|talk]]) 06:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::It is possible that you might get blocked or rate limited. You will be able to do AI training much faster if you use [[Wikipedia:Database download|Database download]] instead. [[User:Tiggerjay|&lt;span style='color:DarkOrange'&gt;'''Tigger'''&lt;/span&gt;'''Jay''']]&amp;thinsp;[[User talk:Tiggerjay|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:85%;color:Purple&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == sir dr raj shekhawat has a famous celebrity and political backgroud but have not any wiki pedia page he also karni sena president this should be fixxed == sir dr raj shekhawat has a famous celebrity and political backgroud but have not any wiki pedia page he also karni sena president this should be fixed [[Special:Contributions/2402:A00:408:1B0D:8024:1C3A:D4EB:EB6E|2402:A00:408:1B0D:8024:1C3A:D4EB:EB6E]] ([[User talk:2402:A00:408:1B0D:8024:1C3A:D4EB:EB6E|talk]]) 05:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :You can request that an article be created over at [[Wikipedia:Requested articles]], alternately you can consider [[Wikipedia:Article_wizard|writing the article yourself]]. [[User:Tiggerjay|&lt;span style='color:DarkOrange'&gt;'''Tigger'''&lt;/span&gt;'''Jay''']]&amp;thinsp;[[User talk:Tiggerjay|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:85%;color:Purple&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == How do I make a proper bulleted list in a blockquote? == At [[Design Law Treaty#Legal provisions]], I am unable to make the first bullet being displayed as a bullet (and not as a &quot;*&quot;) without putting a &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt; before it. Could someone please show me how to? [[User:Veverve|Veverve]] ([[User talk:Veverve|talk]]) 11:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Change the text on {{tl|blockquote}} to use a {{tl|flowlist}} template: :{{pre|&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Blockquote|text={{flowlist|&lt;/nowiki&gt;}} :Don't forget to add the {{tl|flowlist}}'s closing {{code|&lt;nowiki&gt;}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;}} before those of {{tl|blockquote}} [[User:Bazza_7|Bazza&amp;nbsp;&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;7&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User_talk:Bazza_7|talk]]) 12:12, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Watchlist filter == Hi, how can I hide the changes by one user on my watchlist? I've searched the available filters, is there a script? Cheers. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus]] [[User talk:Nimbus227|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#2F4F4F;&quot;&gt;(Cumulus&lt;/span&gt; &lt;span style=&quot;color:#708090;&quot;&gt;nimbus&lt;/span&gt; &lt;span style=&quot;color:#D3D3D3;&quot;&gt;floats by)&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:51, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :As far as I know there is no built in way to filter on a specific user other than your own contributes. Perhaps someone else can chime in on a custom, unofficial script to accomplish this. [[User:Tiggerjay|&lt;span style='color:DarkOrange'&gt;'''Tigger'''&lt;/span&gt;'''Jay''']]&amp;thinsp;[[User talk:Tiggerjay|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:85%;color:Purple&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::I found [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T167224 this work on a user filter from 2017], it seems to have been abandoned. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus]] [[User talk:Nimbus227|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#2F4F4F;&quot;&gt;(Cumulus&lt;/span&gt; &lt;span style=&quot;color:#708090;&quot;&gt;nimbus&lt;/span&gt; &lt;span style=&quot;color:#D3D3D3;&quot;&gt;floats by)&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:11, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::FWIW {{U|Nimbus227}}, whatever the third word of your custom sig's usertalk linktext is, it's wholly invisible on my device (I use the [[Wikipedia:Dark mode (gadget)|dark mode gadget]]). Please consider restyling it to comply with [[MOS:CONTRAST]]. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 11:11, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've modified it, visible in dark mode on PC and mobile devices for me. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus]] [[User talk:Nimbus227|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#2F4F4F;&quot;&gt;(Cumulus&lt;/span&gt; &lt;span style=&quot;color:#708090;&quot;&gt;nimbus&lt;/span&gt; &lt;span style=&quot;color:#A9A9A9 ;&quot;&gt;floats by)&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Thank you! Confirming I can see it as well. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 12:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Chester Braddock deGavre == I am trying to edit my draft. I cannot edit it. Can you please tell me why?? [[User:Robert T. deGavre|Robert T. deGavre]] ([[User talk:Robert T. deGavre|talk]]) 21:18, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:Robert T. deGavre|Robert T. deGavre]]. What do you mean when you say you can't edit it? What actually happens when you try to edit [[Draft:Chester Braddock deGavre]]? [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 21:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :[[Draft:Chester Braddock deGavre]] :Here you are. Please note it's currently in draftspace - the non-public holding place for incomplete and work in progress articles - and isn't likely to be published and moved to mainspace in its current state. [[User:Departure–|Departure–]] ([[User talk:Departure–|talk]]) 21:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Yo i got a question on how to make a page? == . [[User:PostRhythmRecords|PostRhythmRecords]] ([[User talk:PostRhythmRecords|talk]]) 22:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:PostRhythmRecords|PostRhythmRecords]] Very few folk here respond well to &quot;yo&quot;, but I will attempt it. Please read [[HELP:YFA]]. I have one caveat, which is your user name. It suggests that you are a business. If it is then you will need to consider changing it, the more so if it reflects your business. You will also need to comply with [[WP:PAID]] if writing about this putative business. In any case you may not promote that business 🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User:Timtrent|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#800&quot;&gt;Fiddle&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;Timtrent&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#070&quot;&gt;Faddle&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;Talk&amp;nbsp;to&amp;nbsp;me&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦 22:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:PostRhythmRecords|PostRhythmRecords]]. While &quot;make a page&quot; is not a completely wrong description of what we do here, using it suggests that (like many people) you have a misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is and how it works. :A better description is &quot;write an encyclopaedia article about&quot;. An article should be a summary of what ''independent'' published sources say about a subject, and little else. {{HD/WINI}} :It is also the case that trying to create a new article before you have spent time learning about Wikipedia's policy and practices is often very disappointing and frustrating. {{User:ColinFine/PractiseFirst}} :Judging from your username, as FiddleFaddle says, I would advise you to read [[WP:BOSS]], [[WP:COI]], [[WP:PAID]], and [[WP:Username policy]] straight away. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 22:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC) = November 24 = == Please remind me—how should I deal with an anonymous reversion of an edit of mine? == Greetings and felicitations. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=So_I%27m_a_Spider%2C_So_What%3F&amp;oldid=prev&amp;diff=1254584858 An edit of mine] was reverted by a [[Special:Contributions/2603:8081:5900:16A1:DD8A:31B6:350B:5828|MAC-address user]]. How do I deal with this, please? —[[User:DocWatson42|DocWatson42]] ([[User talk:DocWatson42|talk]]) 05:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :I see that you posted about this on the article talk page on 1 November to look for consensus, which would have been my first suggestion. It would be helpful to explain the reason for the edit on the talk page, was your edit a manual of style correction? [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 05:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :On the talk page, you should cite [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Dashes]], which explicitly recommens &quot;An em dash is ''unspaced'' on both sides&quot;. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 09:06, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :On an unrelated note, please be aware that it was reverted by an [[IPv6]] user, not a MAC address, they look similar but are indeed different things. [[User:Tiggerjay|&lt;span style='color:DarkOrange'&gt;'''Tigger'''&lt;/span&gt;'''Jay''']]&amp;thinsp;[[User talk:Tiggerjay|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:85%;color:Purple&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == I would be happy to donate by check, but do not use electronic methods of payment. Please let me know how to donate. My email address is &lt;redacted&gt;. Thank you. == I would be happy to donate by check, but do not use electronic methods of payment. Please let me know how to donate. My email address is &lt;redacted&gt;. Thank you. [[Special:Contributions/208.254.116.194|208.254.116.194]] ([[User talk:208.254.116.194|talk]]) 06:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC) : See [[donate:Donate by mail]]. But do note that the Wikimedia Foundation generally has more than enough money. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|&lt;sub style=&quot;color:#800000&quot;&gt;it has begun...&lt;/sub&gt;]] 06:12, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Template:Antisemitism sidebar == Can we get a few eyes over at [[Template talk:Antisemitism sidebar#People section (Nov 2024)]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold;color:darkblue&quot;&gt;[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]&lt;/span&gt;🍁 07:18, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Appears to be well at hand. Does it need EC protection? &lt;span style=&quot;color:#7E790E;&quot;&gt;2601AC47&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:2601AC47|talk]]&lt;big&gt;·&lt;/big&gt;[[Special:Contributions/2601AC47|contribs]]&lt;big&gt;·&lt;/big&gt;[[Special:UserRights/2601AC47|my rights]]) &lt;span style=&quot;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;Isn't a IP anon&lt;/span&gt; 17:47, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Citation template == It seems that the preferred way of referencing has changed over time. For instance, I started up earlier this year the WP article titled, &quot;[[American Junior Red Cross]].&quot; I used the old referencing method. What is the purpose of inserting retrieval dates? They serve no purpose when links go to depositories like HathiTrust. The content in printed newspapers and magazines can't be updated. Is the current citation template now preferred in all instances? Should my references at &quot;American Junior Red Cross&quot; be rewritten? (The only reference there using the standard template is not mine.) Thanks. [[User:JimPercy|JimPercy]] ([[User talk:JimPercy|talk]]) 14:14, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :{{U|JimPercy}}, {{para|access-date}} is entirely unnecessary cruft when applied to print sources. Not only are you not required to add it, but you can remove it or comment it out from citations to print sources if you prefer. It tends to get added to everything by scripts that don't know any better. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 17:08, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::Relevant discussion at {{slink|Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 91|Do we need &amp;#124;access-date ?}} (November 2023). [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 17:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :There is guidance on changing citation styles at [[WP:CITEVAR]], which starts by saying {{tq|Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style, merely on the grounds of personal preference or to make it match other articles, without first seeking consensus for the change}}. [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 17:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thanks for both replies. I know that an article's citation style should not be altered. But some people might still think that modernization is in order. That discussion page was interesting. I will have to go over the different thoughts again later. Someone said something about how there should be a template that automatically deletes access dates for magazines and newspapers. [[User:JimPercy|JimPercy]] ([[User talk:JimPercy|talk]]) 21:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Struggling with merging and moving articles in relation to the Emily Prentiss article. == I have been struggling with merging and moving the Emily Prentiss article. I have a draft for Emily Prentiss (a Criminal Minds character) that I'd like to move to mainspace, but the only way I know how to do that would be to copy and paste the content onto the current page for Emily Prentiss, which serves as a redirect to the List of Criminal Minds characters. However, I think I might have accidentally messed that up, and now I'm confused on what to do. '''Here are the links to the articles in question if someone can help:''' [[List of Criminal Minds characters]] [[Emily Prentiss (Criminal Minds)|Emily Prentiss]] [[Emily Prentiss (Criminal Minds)]] [[Draft:Emily Prentiss]] [[User:DocZach|DocZach]] ([[User talk:DocZach|talk]]) 17:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:DocZach|DocZach]]. I'm not seeing why this character meets Wikipedia's criteria for [[WP:notability|notability]]; but if you think she does, the way to proceed to [[WP:move|move]] a draft over a redirect is to post a request at [[WP:RM/T]]. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 17:37, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Retain or remove citation indicators in quoted text? == Example article text: : There are &quot;two ways to go about this¹ that deserve consideration&quot;,¹ one of them &quot;far more preferable for enlightenment purposes (Gergen, 1990) than the other low-information approach.&quot;² The direct quotes from two cited sources each use different citation indicator styles, one with superscripts the other with parentheses. My question is, for readability, can I remove one or both of the citation indicators, ie: ¹, (Gergen, 1990)? Thanks! [[User:Tsavage|Tsavage]] ([[User talk:Tsavage|talk]]) 19:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Tsavage|Tsavage]], it looks like the the parenthetical reference is part of the quoted material rather than a citation in Wikipedia, while the numbers are for Wikipedia citations. It might help to know what article this is from to see the context. [[User:StarryGrandma|StarryGrandma]] ([[User talk:StarryGrandma|talk]]) 20:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thanks. There's no particular context, it's a general question, with a made-up example. I'm referring to citations &lt;u&gt;as they appear in quoted material&lt;/u&gt;, not citations created in Wikipedia. ::My understanding right now (which could be wrong), is that superscript and parentheses are equivalent citation styles, both intended for exactly the same purpose of pointing to a footnoted source; although the parenthetical style provides extra information (eg: author, year), that is not intentional, it's not meant to add to the text. [[User:Tsavage|Tsavage]] ([[User talk:Tsavage|talk]]) 22:08, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::This wouldn't be the correct place to ask a question for things that are outside of Wikipedia. But if you were thinking about bringing a quotation into Wikipedia, then inline citations that are part of the quote itself, such as Gergen above, could be kept as they are the quoted source materials reference. However the superscript reference would be replaced with a natural wikipedia based reference tag. [[User:Tiggerjay|&lt;span style='color:DarkOrange'&gt;'''Tigger'''&lt;/span&gt;'''Jay''']]&amp;thinsp;[[User talk:Tiggerjay|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:85%;color:Purple&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:36, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::|| the superscript reference would be replaced with a natural wikipedia based reference tag ::::If the source text uses citations in the superscript number style, are you suggesting that I recreate those citations in the quoted material in Wikipedia? ::::All I'm asking is whether it is accepted practice to remove the citation indicators, regardless of what style they're in, when quoting material in the text of a Wikipedia article? [[User:Tsavage|Tsavage]] ([[User talk:Tsavage|talk]]) 01:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::::@[[User:Tsavage|Tsavage]], I think the answer is likely to depend on the details of a particular article, so it would be better to come back with a real example if you find one. Wikipedia only uses {{tq|Brief quotations of copyrighted text}}, see [[Wikipedia:Non-free content#Text]], so putting the content into your own words may be preferable. [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 04:46, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Thanks. There's no &quot;real example&quot;, I'm trying to find out if there's a Wikipedia convention for this situation. I think the general, or at least safest, answer is to preserve citation indicators in quoted text, in order to fully represent the source. Which is what I'll do! [[User:Tsavage|Tsavage]] ([[User talk:Tsavage|talk]]) 11:19, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::@[[User:Tsavage|Tsavage]], I agree that preserving citation indicators is safest. The question is somewhat obscure, so you could try the [[WP:MOS]] talk page when you have a real example. [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 11:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Searching Wikipedia with Regex with Capture? == I have a more complicated use case, but I'm wondering whether any of the message of searching Wikipedia would allow for searching *with* capture, so for example if I'd like to find pages where AAA Pan BBB Pan CCC would be found because it is Pan in both places, but *not* AAA Pan BBB Pot CCC because Pan and Pot are different. (Actual use case, looking for pages with entries like &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Omega Psi Phi|Omega Psi Phi fraternity]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; so regex would be &lt;code&gt; /\[\[[A-Z][a-z]* [A-Z][a-z]* [A-Z][a-z]*\|\1 / &lt;/code&gt; ) Is Cirrus my only option (or would even *that* allow it) [[User:Naraht|Naraht]] ([[User talk:Naraht|talk]]) 22:56, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Cirrus doesn't support it, no - its regex engine is frustratingly impractical for anything even a little more complex than toy examples. And I'm not aware of any other way to search wikitext without expending a huge amount of effort, namely, downloading a dump of mainspace, either importing it into a sql engine or parsing it yourself or with [[WP:AWB]], and searching ''that''. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 23:25, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :[[Wikipedia:Request a query]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 04:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Would tell you to come back here or [[WP:VPT]]. &quot;Quarry does not have access to page content, so queries which require checking wikitext cannot be answered with Quarry.&quot; We'd be able to see pages with links to [[Omega Psi Phi]], but not the text it's piped to, or even that it's piped. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 07:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :{{Ping|Naraht}} See [[Wikipedia_talk:AutoWikiBrowser#AutoWikiBrowser_and_searching_for_pages_with_capture_regex.]] -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 08:21, 25 November 2024 (UTC) {{helped}}[[User:Naraht|Naraht]] ([[User talk:Naraht|talk]]) 13:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC) = November 25 = ==[[Dara Huang]]== Re number 5 is not quite right. Please fix - I cannot do this, sorry. [[User:Srbernadette|Srbernadette]] ([[User talk:Srbernadette|talk]]) 03:00, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Srbernadette|Srbernadette]] Fixed. There was a special character in the date parameter, and the date was incomplete. [[User:Sandcat555|Sandcat555]] ([[User talk:Sandcat555|talk]]) 03:47, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Automated edit count? == Would anyone know if it's possible to automate the edit count figure on [[User:Sandcat555|my user page]]? [[User:Sandcat555|Sandcat555]] ([[User talk:Sandcat555|talk]]) 03:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :perhaps with a bot or something? [[User:Sandcat555|Sandcat555]] ([[User talk:Sandcat555|talk]]) 03:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::I could have sworn this was possible, but the best I can find for you right now is [[Template:Editcount]]. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 04:35, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::Various stats for your account are available here: https://xtools.wmcloud.org/ec/en.wikipedia.org/Sandcat555 and are usually up to date (occasionally there can be a lag of a couple of minutes). [[User:Feline Hymnic|Feline Hymnic]] ([[User talk:Feline Hymnic|talk]]) 12:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Yes, but that won't automate the edit count on someone's userpage. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 16:44, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::::@[[User:Asilvering|Asilvering]] Would a bot somehow be able to see the wmcloud page and then auto edit my userpage? [[User:Sandcat555|Sandcat555]] ([[User talk:Sandcat555|talk]]) 21:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::See [[Wikipedia:Bot requests/Frequently denied bots#Bots to update edit counts]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 22:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::@[[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] Dang. I was really hoping this was a thing. [[User:Sandcat555|Sandcat555]] ([[User talk:Sandcat555|talk]]) 03:28, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Feline Hymnic|Feline Hymnic]] I already have that linked on my userpage. I was wondering if the actual number can be automatically updated [[User:Sandcat555|Sandcat555]] ([[User talk:Sandcat555|talk]]) 21:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::::@[[User:Sandcat555|Sandcat555]] If you activate the gadget [[WP:POP|navigation popups]] then one of the things you get when you hover over another user's name (or your own) is information including edit count. That's all I need to see you are currently at 765 edits. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == (untitled) == I gave you $110 a few years ago. Seeing that you're constantly begging for a $2.75 &quot;donation&quot;, I should be exempt for the next 33+ years. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:F100:6520:FD88:3207:2D2:B365|2600:1700:F100:6520:FD88:3207:2D2:B365]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:F100:6520:FD88:3207:2D2:B365|talk]]) 07:36, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Wikipedia has no way to link donations to a specific account or IP address. You are not obliged to donate, and if you don't want to, you can always close the annoying ads. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 07:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::One of the problems with IP editing is that you do get to see regular messages asking for donations. If you are logged in as a user, you can avoid this.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|&lt;span style=&quot;background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;♦Ian&lt;span style=&quot;background:#99c&quot;&gt;Ma&lt;span style=&quot;background:#aad&quot;&gt;c&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;M♦&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]&lt;/sup&gt;''''' 07:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::&lt;small&gt;You both read my mind; FYI, see what I said above about concerns over donations.&lt;/small&gt; &lt;span style=&quot;color:#7E790E;&quot;&gt;2601AC47&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:2601AC47|talk]]&lt;big&gt;·&lt;/big&gt;[[Special:Contributions/2601AC47|contribs]]&lt;big&gt;·&lt;/big&gt;[[Special:UserRights/2601AC47|my rights]]) &lt;span style=&quot;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;Isn't a IP anon&lt;/span&gt; 13:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Help with NPS sources == Hello, NPS nomination forms have a section for &quot;representation in existing surveys,&quot; as seen [https://www.dhr.virginia.gov/VLR_to_transfer/PDFNoms/043-0019_Walkerton_1984_Final_Nomination.pdf here] on the bottom of the first page. What does this mean? Does it have something to do with a broader area-wide geographic survey, or a more specific historical site survey? Thanks so much! [[User:JuxtaposedJacob|JuxtaposedJacob]] ([[User talk:JuxtaposedJacob|talk]]) &amp;#124; :) &amp;#124; he/him &amp;#124; 09:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ==Signature== Hello, I'm trying to make my signature but it can't be fixed. Here's what my signature should look like: '''&lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Times New Roman;&quot;&gt;[[User:Garudam|&lt;span style=&quot;color: black;&quot;&gt;'''Garudam'''&lt;/span&gt;]] '''&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Garudam|&lt;span style=&quot;color: gray;&quot;&gt;'''''Talk!''''']]&lt;/sup&gt; But as you can see it's currently messed. Please someone tell me how it can be fixed? And what error I'm making in this syntax: [[User:Garudam|&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#60;span style&amp;#61;&amp;#34;font-family:&amp;#34;Times New Roman&amp;#59;&amp;#34;&amp;#62;&amp;#91;&amp;#91;User:Garudam&amp;#124;&amp;#60;span style&amp;#61;&amp;#34;color:black&amp;#34;&amp;#62;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;Garudam&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#60;/span&amp;#62;&amp;#93;&amp;#93;&amp;#60;sup&amp;#62;&amp;#91;&amp;#91;User talk:Garudam&amp;#124;&amp;#60;span style&amp;#61;&amp;#34;color: gray&amp;#59;&amp;#34;&amp;#62;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;Talk!&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#93;&amp;#93;&amp;#60;/sup&amp;#62;&amp;#60;/span&amp;#62;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;]] ([[User talk:Garudam|talk]]) 12:23, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ping|Garudam}} Select &quot;Treat the above as wiki markup&quot; below the signature field. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 12:53, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] I did exactly but it shows some syntax error like &quot;span&quot; [[User:Garudam|&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#60;span style&amp;#61;&amp;#34;font-family:&amp;#34;Times New Roman&amp;#59;&amp;#34;&amp;#62;&amp;#91;&amp;#91;User:Garudam&amp;#124;&amp;#60;span style&amp;#61;&amp;#34;color:black&amp;#34;&amp;#62;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;Garudam&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#60;/span&amp;#62;&amp;#93;&amp;#93;&amp;#60;sup&amp;#62;&amp;#91;&amp;#91;User talk:Garudam&amp;#124;&amp;#60;span style&amp;#61;&amp;#34;color: gray&amp;#59;&amp;#34;&amp;#62;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;Talk!&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#93;&amp;#93;&amp;#60;/sup&amp;#62;&amp;#60;/span&amp;#62;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;&amp;#39;]] ([[User talk:Garudam|talk]]) 12:54, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{ping|Garudam}} You are missing two &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; as the message should say. Adding them should work: &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;'''&lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Times New Roman;&quot;&gt;[[User:Garudam|&lt;span style=&quot;color: black;&quot;&gt;'''Garudam'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; '''&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Garudam|&lt;span style=&quot;color: gray;&quot;&gt;'''''Talk!'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 13:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::That helps @[[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] Thanks. '''&lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Times New Roman;&quot;&gt;[[User:Garudam|&lt;span style=&quot;color: black;&quot;&gt;'''Garudam'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; '''&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Garudam|&lt;span style=&quot;color: gray;&quot;&gt;'''''Talk!'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:08, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == John Perrot Quaker - Add image == Hi, I have uploaded a copyright free Wikimedia Commons image of the above but am struggling to incorporate it in the article. Your help would be much appreciated, I used to be able to do this but I'm getting old! https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Perrot_Quaker.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Perrot_(Quaker) [[User:Horatius At The Bridge|Horatius At The Bridge]] ([[User talk:Horatius At The Bridge|talk]]) 12:53, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ping|Horatius At The Bridge}} I have added it to {{tl|Infobox person}} with &lt;code&gt;|image=&lt;/code&gt;.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Perrot_(Quaker)&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259488317] [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 13:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Many thanks [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ::[[User:Horatius At The Bridge|Horatius At The Bridge]] ([[User talk:Horatius At The Bridge|talk]]) 13:37, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == [[Margaret Greville]] == There are two pages about Margaret Greville. I am a Research Historian - as a Volunteer at Polesden Lacey. I have written a book also which is the Maggie Greville Story. I have researched for more than thirteen years the history of Maggie Greville, her father William McEwan and Polesden Lacey. I wish to change the existing article totally.It contains misinformation. It is not correct. I have a huge number of references to prove my research. How can I remove the existing article and provide a new article which tells the truth, and is far more interesting? [[User:13truthknown|13truthknown]] ([[User talk:13truthknown|talk]]) 14:11, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:13truthknown|13truthknown]] You do not start a new article, you improve the existing one, one bit at a time. A WP-article on any subject is meant to be a summary of reliable sources ([[WP:RS]]) on that subject, and if you wish to make edits that can &quot;stick&quot;, you need to understand what sources are considered reliable around here, and guidance like [[WP:SELFCITE]]. You need to know how to add references correctly in the WP-environment, this is ''essential'', [[WP:TUTORIAL]] has a start on that. :My suggestion is: start small. Make a few edits, see what happens, then make a few more. If other editors react, [[WP:COMMUNICATE]]. Do not throw out existing sources in favor of your book. If your book is [[WP:SELFPUB]], don't use it as a source at all. Hope this helps some. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 14:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Btw, if you meant there are two WP-articles about [[Margaret Greville]], which is the other one, please? That might need fixing. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 14:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:13truthknown|13truthknown]] Incidentally, Wikipedia doesn't claim to give readers the [[WP:TRUTH|truth]] (see that link). Instead, by policy, we ensure that facts in our articles can be [[WP:VERIFY|verified]] from the sources we quote. The article on Margaret Greville was first created in 2007 and has been improved incrementally by many editors since then, which is why you should follow Gråbergs Gråa Sång's advice. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 15:08, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:13truthknown|13truthknown]], as has already been said, a self-written book, particularly if self-published or published by a vanity press is never going to be an acceptable source. If you have access to proper [[Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources|independent verifiable sources]], by all means use them to improve the article, but no [[WP:OR|original research ]] please [[User:Jimfbleak|&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Lucida;color:red&quot;&gt;Jimfbleak&lt;/b&gt;]] - [[User talk:Jimfbleak|&lt;i style=&quot;font-family:arial;color:green&quot;&gt;talk to me?&lt;/i&gt;]] 16:19, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::[[Margaret Greville, 6th Baroness Willoughby de Broke]] is a different person [[User:Jimfbleak|&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Lucida;color:red&quot;&gt;Jimfbleak&lt;/b&gt;]] - [[User talk:Jimfbleak|&lt;i style=&quot;font-family:arial;color:green&quot;&gt;talk to me?&lt;/i&gt;]] 16:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Just a heads-up that an SPA removed a referenced section regarding Greville's pro-Nazi inclinations [[User:Jimfbleak|&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Lucida;color:red&quot;&gt;Jimfbleak&lt;/b&gt;]] - [[User talk:Jimfbleak|&lt;i style=&quot;font-family:arial;color:green&quot;&gt;talk to me?&lt;/i&gt;]] 11:17, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Username == Help please every username I offer has been taken no matter how random [[User:Gnasher24|Gnasher24]] ([[User talk:Gnasher24|talk]]) 16:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi @[[User:Gnasher24|Gnasher24]], you already have a Wikipedia account (your username is @[[User:Gnasher24|Gnasher24]]). So unsure what you are asking here? &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;qcne&lt;/span&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 16:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Also, WP has over 116 million registered user-accounts, that's quite a lot of taken user-names. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 16:15, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Gnasher24|Gnasher24]] Gnasher25 is available (etc). [[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]]|[[User talk:Shantavira|&lt;sup&gt;feed me&lt;/sup&gt;]] 17:39, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:Gnasher24|Gnasher24]] You can use [[Special:ListUsers]] to search over existing usernames and see what might be available. Read the instructions at the top of that page carefully. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:25, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::A username can also be rejected if it looks too similar to an existing name. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 12:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Suggested edits paused == Hello, I noticed that my suggested edits have been paused until December 1, 2024. The notification mentioned some contributions were reverted, but I wasn't provided with specific details. Could someone please help clarify why this happened and how I can resolve it? Thank you. [[User : Lokkyboy|Lokkyboy]] ([User talk : Lokkyboy|talk]) 17:39, 25 November 2024 (UTC) &lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Lokkyboy|Lokkyboy]] ([[User talk:Lokkyboy#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lokkyboy|contribs]]) &lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; :I can't tell what you are referring to. Please clarify: where did you make these suggested edits? [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 19:48, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::I think they are referring to the '''Suggested edits''' widget on [[Special:Homepage]] &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;qcne&lt;/span&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 20:15, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{ping|Lokkyboy}} You have apparently encountered a feature specific to the Android app: [[:mw:Wikimedia Apps/Team/Android/AppEditorTasks#Suggested Edits 3.0 - Improved Suggested Edits Homescreen and Feature Pausing (released 25 November 2019)]]. I had not heard about it before and don't know what triggered it. The only edits at [[Special:Contributions/Lokkyboy]] with the &quot;Reverted&quot; tag are four edits in April and May 2022. I don't know whether the feature looks back so far when you have few edits since then. I suggest you just try again after December 1 if you want to use suggested edits. You are free to edit in other ways, e.g. finding tasks at [[Wikipedia:Community portal#Help out]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 21:54, 25 November 2024 (UTC) = November 26 = == Asking for views about validity of an List of public elementary schools in New York City == I was unsure where to ask this question, so I would like to post a redirection from here to my question. [[Wikipedia:Teahouse#Validity_of_an_Wikipedia:Notability_§_Stand-alone_lists_article]] It is a question of the validity of an article in English. [[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] ([[User talk:TarantaBabu|talk]]) 10:35, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] no need to crosspost. Both the Teahouse and Help desk are for asking questions related to editing Wikipedia. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 10:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S24&diff=1259681850</id> <title>Samsung Galaxy S24</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S24&diff=1259681850"/> <updated>2024-11-26T14:10:32Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: Reverted edit by 2405:ACC0:1204:67BC:1879:91DB:6F43:A4B4 (talk) to last version by WikiCleanerBot <hr /> <div>{{Short description|2024 flagship smartphones by Samsung Electronics}} {{Infobox mobile phone | name = Samsung Galaxy S24&lt;br /&gt;Samsung Galaxy S24+&lt;br /&gt;Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra&lt;br /&gt;Samsung Galaxy S24 FE | logo = [[File:Galaxy S24 Logo.svg|frameless|class=skin-invert]] | logosize = &lt;!-- include &quot;px&quot; - Uses users default image size if omitted --&gt; | image = Samsung S24 Ultra Phone.png | imagesize = &lt;!-- include &quot;px&quot; - Uses users default image size if omitted --&gt; | alt = | caption = Galaxy S24 Ultra shown in Titanium Gray | manufacturer = [[Samsung Electronics]] | colors = '''S24/S24+:''' Onyx Black, Marble Grey, Cobalt Violet, Amber Yellow, Jade Green, Sandstone Orange, Sapphire Blue&lt;br /&gt;'''S24 Ultra:''' Titanium Black, Titanium Gray, Titanium Violet, Titanium Yellow, Titanium Blue, Titanium Green, Titanium Orange&lt;br /&gt;'''S24 FE:''' Blue, Graphite, Gray, Mint, Yellow | series = [[Samsung Galaxy S series]] | family = [[Samsung Galaxy]] | networks = 2G [[GSM]] and [[EDGE]] / [[CDMA]] / 3G [[High Speed Packet Access|HSPA]] / [[EVDO]] / [[4G LTE]] / [[5G NR]] | released = {{Start date and age|2024|01|31}} | discontinued = &lt;!-- {{End date|YYYY|MM|DD}} --&gt; | predecessor = [[Samsung Galaxy S23]] | successor = | related = [[Samsung Galaxy Z Flip 6]], [[Samsung Galaxy Z Fold 6]] | type = [[Smartphone]] | form = [[Slate phone|Slate]] | size = {{unbulleted list | '''S24''': {{convert|147|mm|in|abbr=on}} H &lt;br /&gt; {{convert|70.6|mm|in|abbr=on}} W &lt;br /&gt; {{convert|7.6|mm|in|abbr=on}} D | '''S24+''': {{convert|158.5|mm|in|abbr=on}} H &lt;br /&gt; {{convert|75.9|mm|in|abbr=on}} W &lt;br /&gt; {{convert|7.7|mm|in|abbr=on}} D | '''S24 Ultra''': {{convert|162.3|mm|in|abbr=on}} H &lt;br /&gt; {{convert|79|mm|in|abbr=on}} W &lt;br /&gt; {{convert|8.6|mm|in|abbr=on}} D | '''S24 FE''': {{convert|162.0|mm|in|abbr=on}} H &lt;br /&gt; {{convert|77.3|mm|in|abbr=on}} W &lt;br /&gt; {{convert|8.0|mm|in|abbr=on}} D }} | weight = {{unbulleted list | '''S24''': {{convert|168|g|oz|abbr=on}} | '''S24+''': {{convert|197|g|oz|abbr=on}} | '''S24 Ultra''': {{convert|233|g|oz|abbr=on}} | '''S24 FE''': {{convert|213|g|oz|abbr=on}}}} | os = [[Android 14]] (64 bit) with [[One UI|One UI 6.1]] (upgradable to 6.1.1) | soc = '''S24/S24+ North America/East Asia (exc. South Korea) &amp; S24 Ultra Worldwide''': [[List_of_Qualcomm_Snapdragon_systems_on_chips#Snapdragon_8/8s_Gen_3_(2024) | Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 (4 nm)]]&lt;br/&gt;'''S24/S24+ Worldwide''': [[Samsung Exynos]] 2400 (4 nm)&lt;br/&gt;'''S24 FE Worldwide''': [[Samsung Exynos]] 2400e (4 nm) | cpu = '''Snapdragon''': Octa-core (1x3.3 GHz Cortex-X4 &amp; 5x3.2 GHz Cortex-A720 &amp; 2x2.3 GHz Cortex-A520)&lt;br/&gt;'''Exynos''': Deca-core (1x3.2GHz Cortex-X4 &amp; 2x2.9GHz Cortex-A720 &amp; 3x2.6GHz Cortex-A720 &amp; 4x1.95GHz Cortex-A520) | gpu = '''Snapdragon''': [[Adreno]] 750&lt;br/&gt;'''Exynos''': [[Xclipse]] 940 (based on [[AMD RDNA 3]]) | modem = '''Snapdragon''': [[List of Qualcomm Snapdragon modems#Snapdragon X75 5G Modem|Snapdragon X75 5G]]&lt;br&gt;'''Exynos''': [[Exynos 5300]] | memory = 8 or 12{{Nbsp}}GB [[LPDDR5X]]-4800 [[Random Access Memory|RAM]] | storage = {{ubl |'''S24:''' 128/256/512 GB |'''S24+:''' 256/512 GB |'''S24 Ultra:''' 256/512 GB, 1 TB |'''S24 FE:''' 128/256 GB |{{Nowrap|[[UFS 3.1]] (128{{Nbsp}}GB), [[UFS 4.0|4.0]] (256+{{Nbsp}}GB)}} }} | memory_card = | sim = 1x or 2x [[Nano-SIM]] and 1x [[eSIM]] | battery = {{unbulleted list | '''S24''': Li-ion 4000 mAh | '''S24+''': Li-ion 4900 mAh | '''S24 Ultra''': Li-ion 5000 mAh | '''S24 FE''': Li-ion 4700 mAh }} | charging = {{unbulleted list | '''S24/S24 FE:''' Super fast charging at 25W | '''S24+/S24 Ultra:''' Super fast charging 2.0 at 45W | '''All:''' [[Qi (standard)|Qi]]-certified Fast wireless charging at 15W | [[Reverse charging]] at 4.5W (both wired and wireless) }} | input = * [[S Pen]] stylus (S24 Ultra) * [[Accelerometer]] * [[Barometer]] * [[Fingerprint scanner]] (under display, optical on S24 FE and ultrasonic on other models) * [[Pressure sensor]] * [[Magnetometer]] * [[Gyroscope]] * [[Hall sensor]] * [[Proximity sensor]] * [[RGB color model|RGB]] light sensor * Dual band [[Satellite navigation|GNSS]] ([[GPS]]/[[GLONASS]]/[[BeiDou Navigation Satellite System|BeiDou]]/[[Galileo (satellite navigation)|Galileo]]) | display = {{unbulleted list | Dynamic [[AMOLED]] 2X, Infinity-O, capacitive touchscreen, [[HDR10+]], 1B colors, peak brightness 2600 nits | '''S24''': {{convert|6.2|in|mm|abbr=on}} {{resx|2340|1080}} (416 ppi), 19.5:9 [[Display aspect ratio|aspect ratio]], 120&amp;nbsp;Hz [[refresh rate]] LTPO | '''S24+''': {{convert|6.7|in|mm|abbr=on}} {{resx|3120|1440}} (513 ppi), 19.5:9 aspect ratio, 120 Hz LTPO | '''S24 Ultra''': {{convert|6.8|in|mm|abbr=on}} {{resx|3120|1440}} (505 ppi), 19.5:9 aspect ratio, 120&amp;nbsp;Hz LTPO | '''S24 FE''': {{convert|6.7|in|mm|abbr=on}} {{resx|2340|1080}} (385 ppi), 19.5:9 aspect ratio, 120&amp;nbsp;Hz LTPS }} | rear_camera = {{unbulleted list |'''S24/S24+''': 50 MP, f/1.8, 23mm (wide), 1/1.56&quot;, 1.0µm, Dual Pixel PDAF, OIS |10 MP, f/2.4, 70mm (telephoto), 1/3.94&quot;, 1.0µm, PDAF, 3× optical tele |12 MP, f/2.2, 13mm, 120˚ (ultrawide), 1/2.55&quot; 1.4µm, Super Steady video |'''S24 Ultra''': 200 MP, f/1.7, 23mm (wide), 1/1.3&quot;, 0.6µm, PDAF, Laser AF, OIS |50 MP, f/3.4, 115mm (periscope telephoto), 1/2.6&quot;, 0.7µm, dual pixel PDAF, OIS, 5× optical tele |10 MP, f/2.4, 70mm (telephoto), 1/3.52&quot;, 1.12µm, dual pixel PDAF, OIS, 3× optical tele |12 MP, f/2.2, 13mm, 120˚ (ultrawide), 1/2.55&quot;, 1.4µm, dual pixel PDAF |'''S24 FE''': 50 MP, f/1.8, 24mm (wide), dual pixel PDAF, OIS |8 MP, f/2.4, 75mm (telephoto), PDAF, OIS, 3x optical zoom |12 MP, f/2.2, 123˚ (ultrawide) }} | front_camera = {{unbulleted list |12 MP, f/2.2, 25mm (wide), PDAF | Dual video call, Auto-HDR, HDR10+ | 4K@30/60fps, 1080p@30/60fps }} | sound = [[Stereo speakers]], [[Dolby Atmos]] | connectivity = [[Wi-Fi 6E]] 802.11 a/b/g/n/ac/ax(6E)(/be: S24 Ultra, [[Wi-Fi 7]]), tri-band, [[Wi-Fi Direct]]&lt;br /&gt;[[Bluetooth 5.3]], A2DP, LE &lt;br /&gt;'''S24 Ultra''': [[Ultra-wideband|UWB]]&lt;br /&gt;'''US models only''': 5G mmWave | water_resist = [[IP68]] dust/water resistant (up to 1.5m for 30 min) | hac = M3, T3 | website = * {{URL|https://www.samsung.com/us/galaxy/galaxy-s24/|Galaxy S24 &amp; S24+}} * {{URL|https://www.samsung.com/us/galaxy/galaxy-s24-ultra/|Galaxy S24 Ultra}} * {{URL|https://www.samsung.com/us/smartphones/galaxy-s24-fe/buy/galaxy-s24-fe-128gb-unlocked-sm-s721uzkaxaa/|Galaxy S24 FE}} | references = &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url= https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s24-12773.php|title= Samsung Galaxy S24|website= GSMArena|access-date= }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url= https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s24+-12772.php|title= Samsung Galaxy S24+|website= GSMArena|access-date= }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url= https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s24_ultra-12771.php|title= Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra|website= GSMArena|access-date= }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url= https://www.samsung.com/in/smartphones/galaxy-s24/specs/|title= Galaxy S24 - Specs|last= |first= |date= 17 January 2024|website= Samsung Electronics|publisher= |access-date= |quote=}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Matei |first=Mihai |url=https://www.sammobile.com/news/samsung-eureka-moment-developing-galaxy-s24/|title= Galaxy S24 series codename change |date=28 August 2023|website=SamMobile|access-date=29 June 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; }} The '''Samsung Galaxy S24''' is a series of high-end [[Android (operating system)|Android]]-based [[smartphone]]s developed, manufactured, and marketed by [[Samsung Electronics]] as part of its flagship [[Samsung Galaxy S series|Galaxy S series]]. They collectively serve as the successor to the [[Samsung Galaxy S23|Galaxy S23]] series.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Spence |first=Ewan |title=How Samsung's Galaxy S24 Ultra Will Change Smartphones Forever |url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2024/01/10/samsung-galaxy-s24-ultra-secrets-camera-ai-decision-specs/ |access-date=2024-01-11 |website=[[Forbes]] |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-01-10 |title=Here are all the cases Samsung will release for the Galaxy S24 series |url=https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-galaxy-s24-series-official-cases-leak-3401702/ |access-date=2024-01-11 |website=Android Authority |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The phones were announced on January 17, 2024, at the [[Galaxy Unpacked]] event in [[San Jose, California]] and subsequently released on January 31, 2024.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Martin |first=Alan |date=December 2, 2023 |title=Samsung Galaxy S24 specs: Everything we know so far |url=https://www.tomsguide.com/news/samsung-galaxy-s24-specs-everything-we-know-so-far |access-date=January 2, 2024 |website=Tom's Guide |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Akhtar |first=Iyaz |date=January 2, 2024 |title=Samsung Galaxy S24 Unpacked Event Set for Jan. 17 |url=https://www.pcmag.com/news/samsung-galaxy-s24-unpacked-event-set-for-jan-17 |access-date=January 2, 2024 |magazine=[[PCMag]] |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; The S24 FE was announced on September 26, 2024, and was released on October 3, 2024.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Samsung Galaxy S24 FE quietly launches in Singapore with tons of pre-launch specials |url=https://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/tech-news-samsung-galaxy-s24-fe-singapore-price-specs-promotion-preorder |website=www.hardwarezone.com.sg |access-date=6 October 2024 |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Lineup == The Galaxy S24 series includes three devices, which share the same lineup and screen sizes as the previous [[Samsung Galaxy S23|Galaxy S23]] series. The flagship Galaxy S24 features a flat 6.2-inch (155&amp;nbsp;mm) display. The Galaxy S24+ features similar hardware in a 6.7-inch (168&amp;nbsp;mm) form factor. The Galaxy S24 Ultra features a flat 6.8-inch (173&amp;nbsp;mm) display, with sharp edges, distinct from its base model counterpart. The S24 and S24+ phones are powered by [[List of Qualcomm Snapdragon systems on chips#Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 (2024)|Snapdragon 8 Gen 3]] in the USA, Canada, China, Macau, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Japan, while a [[Exynos]] 2400 is used in the rest of the world. The S24 Ultra is equipped with the Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 in every market.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Schoon |first=Ben |date=2024-01-17 |title=Exynos returns to Galaxy S24 as Samsung ditches Snapdragon-only after just one year |url=https://9to5google.com/2024/01/17/samsung-galaxy-s24-exynos/ |access-date=2024-01-18 |website=9to5Google |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-01-18 |title=Glaxy S24 Series:Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 vs Exynos 2400 Launch Countries|url=https://www.gizchina.com/2024/01/18/galaxy-s24-series-snapdragon-8-gen-3-vs-exynos-2400-launch-countries/ |access-date=2024-03-28 |website=Gizchina |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; Conversely, the S24 FE comes with an [[Underclocking|underclocked]] variant of the Exynos 2400 called the Exynos 2400e in every market including North America.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|date=2024-09-26|title=Galaxy S24 Series Expands With S24 FE: A Premium Experience That Makes Full Galaxy AI Capabilities Attainable for More Users|url=https://news.samsung.com/us/galaxy-s24-series-expands-with-s24-fe-a-premium-experience-that-makes-full-galaxy-ai-capabilities-attainable-for-more-users/|access-date=2024-09-29|website=Samsung US Newsroom|language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Design == &lt;!-- Don't forget to add S24 FE --&gt; The Galaxy S24 and S24+ have aluminum and matte glass versions and are available in four standard colors: Amber Yellow, Marble Gray, Cobalt Violet, and Onyx Black, with three additional colors available only through Samsung's website: Jade Green, Sapphire Blue and Sandstone Orange. The S24 Ultra features titanium versions of these colors.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Compare Samsung Galaxy S24 vs. Samsung Galaxy S24+ vs. Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra - GSMArena.com |url=https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=12773&amp;idPhone2=12772&amp;idPhone3=12771 |access-date=2024-01-23 |website=www.gsmarena.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; {| class=&quot;wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed&quot; ! colspan=&quot;3&quot; style=&quot;text-align: center&quot; |'''Galaxy S24 and S24+''' ! colspan=&quot;3&quot; style=&quot;text-align: center&quot; |'''Galaxy S24 Ultra''' |- !Color !Name !Online exclusive !Color !Name !Online exclusive |- | bgcolor=&quot;#3e3e3e&quot; | | [[Black|Onyx Black]] | {{na}} | bgcolor=&quot;#3e3e3e&quot; | | [[Black|Titanium Black]] | {{na}} |- | bgcolor=&quot;#c7c5c6&quot; | | Marble Grey | {{na}} | bgcolor=&quot;#c7c5c6&quot; | | Titanium Grey | {{na}} |- | bgcolor=&quot;#f4e9cb&quot; | | Amber Yellow | {{na}} | bgcolor=&quot;#f4e9cb&quot; | | Titanium Yellow | {{na}} |- | bgcolor=&quot;#615c7a&quot; | | Cobalt Violet | {{na}} | bgcolor=&quot;#615c7a&quot; | | Titanium Violet | {{na}} |- | bgcolor=&quot;#d9e5d1&quot; | | Jade Green | {{ya}} | bgcolor=&quot;#d9e5d1&quot; | | Titanium Green | {{ya}} |- | bgcolor=&quot;#cbd1df&quot; | | Sapphire Blue | {{ya}} | bgcolor=&quot;#cbd1df&quot; | | Titanium Blue | {{ya}} |- | bgcolor=&quot;#dc9c6e&quot; | | Sandstone Orange | {{ya}} | bgcolor=&quot;#dc9c6e&quot; | | Titanium Orange | {{ya}} |} === Display === The Galaxy S24 and S24+ use a &quot;Dynamic [[AMOLED]] 2X&quot; display with [[HDR10+]] support, 2600 nits of peak brightness, [[Low-temperature polycrystalline silicon|LTPO]] backplane, &quot;dynamic tone mapping&quot; technology, and [[Corning Gorilla Glass]] Victus 2.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=What is a Dynamic AMOLED Screen?|url= https://www.samsung.com/uk/mobile-phone-buying-guide/what-is-dynamic-amoled-screen/ |access-date=2024-02-10 |website=samsung.com |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Galaxy S24 FE has 1900 nits of peak brightness and [[Low-temperature polycrystalline silicon|LTPS]] backplane. All models use an ultrasonic in-screen [[fingerprint sensor]], except the S24 FE which uses an optical in-screen fingerprint sensor. The S24 series uses a variable refresh rate display with a range of 1 Hz or 24 Hz to 120 Hz,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Samsung Galaxy S24 refresh rates |url=https://www.samsung.com/ae/support/mobile-devices/what-are-the-refresh-rates-and-ppi-for-the-new-s24-series/ |access-date=2024-02-10 |website=samsung.com |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; except the S24 FE which has a range of 48 Hz to 120 Hz{{Cn|date=November 2024}}. The Galaxy S24 Ultra, in addition to the features of the S24+, uses [[Gorilla Glass|Corning Gorilla Glass]] Armor glass on its display, but it drops the curved edges seen in the Galaxy S23 Ultra.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=Corning Gorilla Armor |url=https://www.corning.com/gorillaglass/worldwide/en/corning-gorilla-armor.html |access-date=2024-01-25 |website=www.corning.com |language=en-us}}&lt;/ref&gt; {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; !Model ![[Display size]] ![[Display resolution|Resolution]] ![[Pixel density|Density]] ![[Display aspect ratio|Aspect ratio]] !Max [[refresh rate]] ![[Variable refresh rate]] !Shape |- |S24 |{{convert|6.2|in|0|abbr=on}} |2340×1080 |~416 ppi | rowspan=&quot;4&quot; |19.5:9 | rowspan=&quot;4&quot; |120&amp;nbsp;Hz | rowspan=&quot;3&quot; |1&amp;nbsp;Hz to 120&amp;nbsp;Hz | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |Rounded corners, flat sides |- |S24+ |{{convert|6.7|in|0|abbr=on}} | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |3120×1440 |~513 ppi |- |S24 Ultra |{{convert|6.8|in|0|abbr=on}} |~505 ppi |Sharp corners, flat sides |- |S24 FE |{{convert|6.7|in|0|abbr=on}} |2340x1080 |~385 ppi |48&amp;nbsp;Hz to 120&amp;nbsp;Hz&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Samsung S24 FE Price in Pakistan and Specs - November 2024 |url=https://phonebolee.com/Samsung-Galaxy-S24-FE-Price-in-Pakistan/ |access-date=2024-11-15 |website=Phonebolee |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; |Rounded corners, flat sides |} === Camera ===&lt;!-- Don't forget to add S24 FE --&gt; The Galaxy S24 and S24+ have a 50&amp;nbsp;MP wide sensor, a 10&amp;nbsp;MP 3x telephoto sensor and a 12&amp;nbsp;MP ultrawide sensor. The S24 Ultra has a 200&amp;nbsp;MP wide sensor, 50&amp;nbsp;MP 5× periscope telephoto sensor, 10&amp;nbsp;MP 3x telephoto sensor, and a 12&amp;nbsp;MP ultrawide sensor. The front camera uses a 12&amp;nbsp;MP sensor on all three models. {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot; |+Camera comparison on the Galaxy S24 series&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url= https://www.samsung.com/uk/mobile-phone-buying-guide/samsung-galaxy-s24-camera-specs-explained/|title= Samsung Galaxy S24 Camera Specs Explained|last= |first= |date= 17 January 2024|website= Samsung Electronics|publisher= |access-date= |quote=}}&lt;/ref&gt; ! colspan=&quot;2&quot; |Models !Galaxy S24 &amp; S24+ !Galaxy S24 Ultra |- ! rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |Wide !Specs |50&amp;nbsp;MP, f/1.8, 23&amp;nbsp;mm, 1/1.56&quot;, Dual Pixel PDAF, OIS |200&amp;nbsp;MP, f/1.7, 23&amp;nbsp;mm, 1/1.3&quot;, PDAF, Laser AF, OIS |- !Model |Samsung S5KGN3 |Samsung S5KHP2 |- ! rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |Ultrawide !Specs | colspan=&quot;2&quot; |12&amp;nbsp;MP, f/2.2, 13&amp;nbsp;mm, 1/2.55&quot;, PDAF, 0.6x to 0.9x optical |- !Model | colspan=&quot;2&quot; |Sony IMX563 |- ! rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |Telephoto !Specs |10&amp;nbsp;MP, f/2.4, 70&amp;nbsp;mm, 1/3.94&quot;, PDAF,&lt;br /&gt;OIS, 3× optical tele, 30x digital zoom |10&amp;nbsp;MP, f/2.4, 70&amp;nbsp;mm, 1/3.52&quot;, Dual Pixel PDAF,&lt;br /&gt;OIS, 3× optical tele, 30x digital zoom |- !Model |Samsung S5K3K1 |Sony IMX754 |- ! rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |[[Periscope lens|Periscope&lt;br /&gt;telephoto]] !Specs |– |50&amp;nbsp;MP, f/3.4, 115&amp;nbsp;mm, 1/2.52&quot;, Dual Pixel PDAF,&lt;br /&gt;OIS, 5× optical tele, 100x digital zoom |- !Model |– |Sony IMX854 |- ! rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |Front !Specs | colspan=&quot;2&quot; |12&amp;nbsp;MP, f/2.2, 25&amp;nbsp;mm, PDAF |- !Model | colspan=&quot;2&quot; {{Unknown}} |} === Batteries === The Galaxy S24, S24+, S24 Ultra, and S24 FE contain internal 4,000&amp;nbsp;mAh, 4,900&amp;nbsp;mAh, 5,000&amp;nbsp;mAh, and 4,700&amp;nbsp;mAh [[Lithium-ion|Li-ion]] batteries respectively. The S24 and S24 FE only charges at 25 watts, while the S24+ and S24 Ultra charge up at 45 watts charging. === Connectivity === The Galaxy S24, S24+, and S24 FE support [[5G]] SA/NSA/Sub6, [[Wi-Fi 6E]], and [[Bluetooth 5.3]] connectivity, while the Galaxy S24 Ultra additionally supports [[IEEE 802.11be|Wi-Fi 7]] and [[ultra-wideband]] (UWB).&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-01-17 |title=Samsung Galaxy S24 series specs: Everything you need to know |url=https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-galaxy-s24-specs-3401897/ |access-date=2024-01-24 |website=Android Authority |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; All models support 5G mmWave exclusively in the US. === Memory and storage === The Galaxy S24 phones feature 4,800&amp;nbsp;[[MT/s]] [[LPDDR5X]] memory and [[Universal Flash Storage]] 3.1 with 128&amp;nbsp;GB or version 4.0 with 256&amp;nbsp;GB and above. {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; ! rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |Models ! colspan=&quot;2&quot; |Galaxy S24 ! colspan=&quot;2&quot; |Galaxy S24+ ! colspan=&quot;2&quot; |Galaxy S24 Ultra ! colspan=&quot;2&quot; |Galaxy S24 FE |- ![[Random Access Memory|RAM]] !Storage ![[Random Access Memory|RAM]] !Storage ![[Random Access Memory|RAM]] !Storage ![[Random Access Memory|RAM]] !Storage |- !Variant 1 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |8{{Nbsp}}GB |128{{Nbsp}}GB | – | – | rowspan=&quot;3&quot; |12{{Nbsp}}GB |256{{Nbsp}}GB | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |8 GB |128 GB |- !Variant 2 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |256{{Nbsp}}GB | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |12{{Nbsp}}GB |256{{Nbsp}}GB |512{{Nbsp}}GB |256 GB |- !Variant 3 |12{{Nbsp}}GB |512{{Nbsp}}GB |1{{Nbsp}}TB | - | - |- !Variant 4 | 8{{Nbsp}}GB | 512{{Nbsp}}GB | – | – | - | - | - | - |} === Software === The Galaxy S24 phones were released with [[Android 14]] with Samsung's [[One UI]] 6.1 user experience. Samsung has promised 7 years of security patches and OS upgrades.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=McGregor |first=Janhoi |title=Samsung Is Giving A Surprise Android Boost To All Galaxy S24 Owners |url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/jaymcgregor/2024/01/18/samsung-galaxy-s24-new-android-update-policy-seven-years/ |access-date=2024-01-18 |website=Forbes |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; All phones use Google's on-device [[Gemini (language model)|Gemini Nano]], already used by their own [[Pixel 8 Pro]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Akash |first=Sriram |date=January 17, 2024 |title=Samsung to embed Google's generative AI tech in S24 smartphone series |url=https://www.reuters.com/technology/samsung-embed-googles-generative-ai-tech-s24-smartphone-series-2024-01-17/ |website=[[Reuters]] |place=Bengaluru}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Reception== === S Pen bad smell === Some users noted the unpleasant smell of the Galaxy S24 Ultra's [[S Pen]], likened to &quot;burnt plastic&quot;. A moderator on Samsung's EU forums said the smell was a normal part of the pen's operation, and &quot;isn't anything to be concerned about&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/03/users-complain-that-the-samsung-galaxy-s24-stylus-smells-bad/|title=Samsung users ask, &quot;Why does the S-Pen smell so bad?&quot;|date=March 23, 2024|access-date=April 21, 2024|website=[[Ars Technica]]|last=Amadeo|first=Ron}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/22/24108848/samsung-galaxy-s24-ultra-s-pen-stylus-smell|title=Confirmed: the S Pen smells kind of bad|date=March 23, 2024|access-date=April 23, 2024|website=[[The Verge]]|last=Johnson|first=Allison}}&lt;/ref&gt; == See also == * [[Samsung Galaxy S series]] * [[List of longest smartphone telephoto lenses]] == References == {{reflist}} == External links == * [https://www.samsung.com/global/galaxy/galaxy-s24/ Galaxy S24 &amp; S24+] – official website * [https://www.samsung.com/global/galaxy/galaxy-s24-ultra/ Galaxy S24 Ultra] – official website {{S-start}} {{S-bef| before = [[Samsung Galaxy S23]]}} {{S-ttl| title = Samsung Galaxy S24| years = 2024}} {{S-inc| recent}} {{S-end}} {{Samsung phones}} {{Samsung Galaxy S|smartphones=yes|tablets =yes}} [[Category:Android (operating system) devices]] [[Category:Samsung Galaxy]] [[Category:Flagship smartphones]] [[Category:Samsung smartphones]] [[Category:Mobile phones with multiple rear cameras]] [[Category:Mobile phones introduced in 2024]] [[Category:Phablets]] [[Category:Mobile phones with 8K video recording]] [[Category:Mobile phones with stylus]]</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:50.248.134.38&diff=1259680465</id> <title>User talk:50.248.134.38</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:50.248.134.38&diff=1259680465"/> <updated>2024-11-26T13:58:52Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. <hr /> <div>[[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:Eridian314|Eridian314]]. An edit that you recently made seemed to be a test and has been removed. If you want to practice editing, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. If you think a mistake was made, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on [[User talk:Eridian314|my talk page]]. Thanks!&lt;!-- Template:uw-test1 --&gt; == November 2024 == [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Wicked (musical)]]. Your edits appear to constitute [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]] and have been [[Help:Reverting|reverted]]. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. Repeated vandalism may result in the [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|loss of editing privileges]]. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism2 --&gt; [[User:Entranced98|Entranced98]] ([[User talk:Entranced98|talk]]) 13:47, 26 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; [[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop. If you continue to [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Dana Fox]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. &lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism3 --&gt; [[User:Entranced98|Entranced98]] ([[User talk:Entranced98|talk]]) 13:48, 26 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:112.202.152.31&diff=1259680219</id> <title>User talk:112.202.152.31</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:112.202.152.31&diff=1259680219"/> <updated>2024-11-26T13:56:38Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. <hr /> <div>Maharilka fund Corporation 63736736376736383773837383837738 million 52626276373637638272863826283683638383993 million == November 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:Annh07|Annh07]]. I wanted to let you know that one or more of [[Special:Contributions/112.202.152.31|your recent contributions]]&amp;#32;to [[:Economy of the Philippines]] have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the [[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]] or the [[Wikipedia:Help desk|Help desk]]. Thanks.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --&gt; [[User:Annh07|Annh07]] ([[User talk:Annh07|talk]]) 13:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC) [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please refrain from attempting to make unconstructive edits to Wikipedia. Your edits appear to be [[WP:DE|disruptive]] and have been &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[{{fullurl:Special:AbuseLog|wpSearchUser=112.202.152.31}} disallowed by an edit filter.]&lt;/span&gt; If you would like to experiment, please use [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|the sandbox]]. Repeatedly attempting to perform disruptive actions may result in the [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|loss of editing privileges]]. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-attempt2 --&gt; [[User:WiiUf|&lt;span title=&quot;WiiUf&quot; style=&quot;15px Segoe Script;color:#FFF;background:linear-gradient(120deg,#00F207,#00C5C2);box-shadow:border:1px #FFF solid;border-radius:300px;padding:0 15px;font-family: Segoe Script;&quot;&gt;WiiUf&lt;/span&gt;]][[User Talk:WiiUf|🐉]] 13:13, 21 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; [[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop. If you continue to &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;attempt to make [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|disruptive]] edits to Wikipedia&lt;/span&gt;, as you did at [[:Maharlika Wealth Fund]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. &lt;!-- Template:uw-attempt3 --&gt; [[User:Annh07|Annh07]] ([[User talk:Annh07|talk]]) 13:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC) [[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|alt=Stop icon]] You may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further warning''' the next time you &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;attempt to make [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|disruptive edits]] to Wikipedia and trigger the [[Wikipedia:Edit_filter|edit filter]]&lt;/span&gt;. &lt;!-- Template:uw-attempt4 --&gt; [[User:Annh07|Annh07]] ([[User talk:Annh07|talk]]) 08:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC) &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]], as done at [[:RC_Cola]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:56, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:193.5.248.1&diff=1259680176</id> <title>User talk:193.5.248.1</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:193.5.248.1&diff=1259680176"/> <updated>2024-11-26T13:56:08Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. <hr /> <div>== November 2024 == [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia. Your edits appear to constitute [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]] and have been [[Help:Reverting|reverted]]. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. Repeated vandalism may result in the [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|loss of editing privileges]]. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism2 --&gt; [[User:Euryalus|Euryalus]] ([[User talk:Euryalus|talk]]) 13:30, 26 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:56, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:80.195.73.149&diff=1259679019</id> <title>User talk:80.195.73.149</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:80.195.73.149&diff=1259679019"/> <updated>2024-11-26T13:45:33Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing to prevent further vandalism. <hr /> <div> == June 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|left|25px|alt=]] Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a message letting you know that one or more of your recent edits to [[:Concorde aircraft histories]] have been undone by an automated computer program called [[User:ClueBot NG|ClueBot NG]]. {{clear}} * ClueBot NG makes very few mistakes, but it does happen. If you believe the change you made was constructive, please [[User:ClueBot NG#Information About False Positives|read about it]], [{{User:ClueBot NG/Warnings/FPReport|4332680}} report it here], remove this message from your talk page, and then make the edit again. * If you need help, please see the [[Help:Introduction|Introduction to Wikipedia]], and if you can't find what you are looking for there, place {{Tld|Help me}} on [[Special:EditPage/User talk:80.195.73.149|your talk page]] and someone will drop by to help. * The following is the log entry regarding this message: [[Concorde aircraft histories]] was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Concorde+aircraft+histories&amp;diff=1231079288&amp;oldid=1231079146 changed] by [[Special:Contributions/80.195.73.149|80.195.73.149]] [[User:80.195.73.149|(u)]] [[User talk:80.195.73.149|(t)]] ANN scored at 0.938054 on 2024-06-26T10:16:10+00:00 &lt;!-- MySQL ID: 4332680 --&gt; Thank you. &lt;!-- Template:uw-cluebotwarning1 --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --&gt; [[User:ClueBot NG|ClueBot NG]] ([[User talk:ClueBot NG|talk]]) 10:16, 26 June 2024 (UTC) [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Pratt &amp; Whitney]]. 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Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism2 --&gt; &lt;span style=&quot;text-decoration:underline;&quot;&gt;[[User:Apollogetticax|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;&quot;&gt;Apollo&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:blue;&quot;&gt;getticax&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;|&lt;sup style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Apollogetticax|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:55, 27 June 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; &lt;div class=&quot;user-block uw-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt; == November 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:DoebLoggs|DoebLoggs]]. I wanted to let you know that one or more of [[Special:Contributions/80.195.73.149|your recent contributions]]&amp;#32;to [[:Carl Linnaeus bibliography]] have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the [[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]] or the [[Wikipedia:Help desk|Help desk]]. Thanks.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --&gt; [[User:DoebLoggs|DoebLoggs]] ([[User talk:DoebLoggs|talk]]) 13:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''1 week''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:195.158.15.3&diff=1259678098</id> <title>User talk:195.158.15.3</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:195.158.15.3&diff=1259678098"/> <updated>2024-11-26T13:37:40Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. <hr /> <div> == November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:37, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:UrbanCabin&diff=1259675279</id> <title>User talk:UrbanCabin</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:UrbanCabin&diff=1259675279"/> <updated>2024-11-26T13:14:03Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been indefinitely blocked from editing because your account is being used only for spam or advertising and your username is a violation of the username policy. <hr /> <div>== November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block uw-spamublock&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt; [[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=|link=]]Your account has been '''[[WP:Blocking policy#Indefinite blocks|indefinitely blocked]]''' from editing because it has been used for [[WP:Spam|advertising or promotion]], which is [[WP:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion|contrary]] to the [[WP:Five pillars|purpose of Wikipedia]]. Also, your username gives the impression that the account represents a business, organisation, group, or website, which is against the [[Wikipedia:Username policy|username policy]]. If you intend to make useful contributions instead of promoting your business or organization, you may request unblock and a username change. In your reasons, '''you must follow all these steps''': #'''Disclose''' any compensation you may receive for your contributions in accordance with the [[Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure|paid-contribution disclosure]] requirement; and #'''Convince''' us that you understand the reason for your block and that you will not repeat the kind of edits for which you were blocked; and #'''Describe''' in general terms the contributions that you intend to make if you are unblocked; and #'''Provide''' a new username. To do this, insert the text &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock-spamun|Your proposed new username|Your reason here}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; at the bottom of your talk page. Replace the text &quot;Your proposed new username&quot; with your new username and replace the text &quot;Your reason here&quot; with your reasons to be unblocked. Please note that the new username you choose cannot already be taken and in use by another account. You can [[Special:CentralAuth|search]] to see if the username you'd like to choose is available. If the search returns that no global account with that username exists, that means it is still available. '''Appeals:''' If, after reviewing the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], you believe this block was made in error, you may [[WP:Appealing a block|appeal it]] by adding the text &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; at the bottom of your talk page. Replace the text &quot;Your reason here&quot; with the reasons you believe the block was an error, and publish the page. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:14, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;[[Category:Wikipedians who are indefinitely blocked for promotional user names|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;!-- Template:Uw-spamublock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:109.166.133.84&diff=1259675231</id> <title>User talk:109.166.133.84</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:109.166.133.84&diff=1259675231"/> <updated>2024-11-26T13:13:43Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. <hr /> <div> == November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Office&diff=1259675180</id> <title>Office</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Office&diff=1259675180"/> <updated>2024-11-26T13:13:19Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: Reverted edit by UrbanCabin (talk) to last version by HJ Mitchell <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Room where administrative work is performed}} {{Other uses}} {{More citations needed|date=May 2024|reason=Substantial portions of this article are unsourced or rely on sources not strong enough to support the broad statements being made}} [[File:West side of Manhattan from Hudson Commons (95103p).jpg|thumb|upright=1.5|[[Midtown Manhattan]] in [[New York City]] is the largest [[central business district]] in the world, comprising over 350 million square feet of office space.]] An '''office''' is a space where the [[employee]]s of an [[organization]] perform [[Business administration|administrative]] [[Work (human activity)|work]] in order to support and realize the various goals of the organization. The word &quot;office&quot; may also denote a position within an organization with specific duties attached to it (see [[officer]] or [[official]]); the latter is an earlier usage, as &quot;office&quot; originally referred to the location of one's duty. In its [[adjective]] form, the term &quot;office&quot; may refer to [[business]]-related tasks. In [[legal|law]], a [[company]] or organization has offices in any place where it has an official presence, even if that presence consists of a [[storage silo]], for example, instead of a more traditional establishment with a [[desk]] and [[office chair|chair]]. An office is also an [[architectural]] and [[design]] phenomenon, including small offices, such as a [[Bench (furniture)|bench]] in the corner of a [[small business]] or a room in someone's home (see [[small office/home office]]), entire floors of buildings, and massive buildings dedicated entirely to one company. In modern terms, an office is usually the location where [[white-collar worker]]s carry out their functions. In [[classical antiquity]], offices were often part of a palace complex or a large temple. In the [[High Middle Ages]] (1000–1300), the medieval [[Chancery (medieval office)|chancery]] acted as a sort of office, serving as the space where records and laws were stored and copied. With the growth of large, complex organizations in the 18th century, the first purpose-built office spaces were constructed. As the [[Industrial Revolution]] intensified in the 18th and 19th centuries, the industries of [[bank]]ing, [[rail transport|rail]], [[insurance]], [[retail]], [[petroleum]], and [[telegraph]]y grew dramatically, requiring many clerks. As a result, more office space was assigned to house their activities. The [[time and motion study|time-and-motion study]], pioneered in manufacturing by [[F. W. Taylor]] (1856–1915), led to the &quot;Modern Efficiency Desk&quot; of 1915. Its flat top, with drawers below, was designed to allow managers an easy view of their workers.&lt;ref&gt; {{cite book|access-date=2018-09-08|author-link1=Joe Moran (social historian)|chapter=3: A lifetime behind a desk|chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=A-bRJ94wLGIC|first1=Joe|isbn=9781847650658|last1=Moran|location=London|page=36|publication-date=2010|publisher=Profile Books|quote=[...] the Modern Efficiency Desk, first made in 1915 by Steelcase Inc. for the New York offices of Equitable Assurance. This desk, consisting of a simple, rectangular table with small drawers, replaced the cabinet-like desks, with their high backs made up of little drawers and cubby holes, which dominated office life before the First World War. At their new efficiency desks, office workers could be watched, monitored and subjected to time-and-motion studies.|title=Queuing for Beginners: The Story of Daily Life From Breakfast to Bedtime|year=2007}} &lt;/ref&gt; By the middle of the 20th century, it became apparent that an efficient office required additional control over [[privacy]], and gradually the [[cubicle]] system evolved. [[File:Channel 1 Israel DSC0021.jpg|thumb|right|300px|A typical modern office, in [[Israel]]]] ==History== [[File:JackLondon-office-1916.jpg|thumb|[[Jack London]] in his office, 1916]] The word &quot;office&quot; stems from the Latin &quot;[[Officium (Ancient Rome)|officium]]&quot; and its equivalents in various [[Romance languages]]. An officium was not necessarily a place, but often referred instead to human staff members of an organization, or even the abstract notion of a formal position like a magistrate. The elaborate Roman bureaucracy would not be equaled for centuries in the West after the fall of [[Rome]], with areas partially reverting to illiteracy.{{Citation needed|date=April 2023}} Further east, the Byzantine Empire and varying Islamic [[caliphate|caliphates]] preserved a more sophisticated administrative culture.{{Citation needed|date=May 2024}} Offices in classical antiquity were often part of a palace complex or a large temple. There was often a room where [[Scroll (parchment)|scrolls]] were kept and [[scribe|scribes]] did their work. Ancient texts mentioning the work of scribes allude to the existence of such &quot;offices&quot;. These rooms are sometimes called &quot;libraries&quot; by some archaeologists because of scrolls' association with literature. They were, however, closer to modern offices because the scrolls were meant for record-keeping and other management functions, not for poetry or works of fiction.{{Citation needed|date=April 2023}} ===Middle Ages=== [[File:Office 1719.jpg|thumb|An early [[Europe]]an office, 1719]] The [[High Middle Ages]] (1000–1300) saw the rise of the medieval [[Chancery (medieval office)|chancery]], which was the place where most government letters were written and laws were copied within a kingdom. The rooms of the chancery often had walls full of pigeonholes, constructed to hold rolled-up pieces of parchment for safekeeping or ready reference. This kind of structure was a precursor to the modern bookshelf. The introduction of the [[printing press]] during the [[Renaissance]] did not impact the setup and function of these government offices significantly.{{Citation needed|date=May 2024}} Medieval paintings and tapestries often show people in their private offices handling record-keeping books or writing on scrolls of [[parchment]]. Before the invention of the [[printing press]] and its wider distribution, there was often no clear cultural distinction between a private office and a private [[library]]; books were both read and written at the same [[desk]] or [[Table (furniture)|table]], as were personal and professional accounts and letters. During the 13th century, the English word &quot;office&quot; first began to appear when referring to a position involving specific professional duties (for example, &quot;the office of the....&quot;) [[Geoffrey Chaucer]] appears to have first used the word in 1395 to mean a place where business is transacted in ''[[The Canterbury Tales]]''.{{cn|date=May 2024}} As [[mercantilism]] became the dominant economic theory of the [[Renaissance]], merchants tended to conduct their business in buildings that also sometimes housed people doing retail sales, warehousing, and clerical work. During the 15th century, the population density in many cities reached a point where merchants began to use stand-alone buildings to conduct their business. A distinction began to develop between religious, administrative/military, and commercial uses for buildings.&lt;ref name=Long&gt;{{cite book | last=Long | first=Kim | pages=14–16 | title=User Effective Buildings | location=Denver | publisher=Aardex Corporation | year=2004 | isbn=978-0975552407}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===The emergence of the modern office=== The first purpose-built office spaces were constructed in the 18th century to suit the needs of large and growing organizations such as the [[Royal Navy]] and the [[East India Company]]. The Old Admiralty ([[Ripley Building]]) was built in 1726 and was the first purpose-built office building in Great Britain. As well as offices, the building housed a board room and [[apartment]]s for the Lords of the Admiralty. In the 1770s, many scattered offices for the [[Royal Navy]] were gathered into [[Somerset House]], the first block purpose-built for office work.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=8S4yyAkysYgC|title=The Making of the Modern Admiralty:British Naval Policy-Making, 1805-1927|author=Hamilton, C.I|year=2011|publisher=Cambridge University Press|page=15|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160617003219/https://books.google.com/books?id=8S4yyAkysYgC|archive-date=2016-06-17|isbn=9781139496544}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Contradictory inline|reason=two paragraphs down, the same claim is made about the Brunswick Building|date=April 2023}} [[File:East India House by Thomas Malton the Younger.jpg|thumb|left|The sprawling complex of the extended [[East India House]] {{Circa|1800}}. The company employed a plethora of bureaucrats to administer its territories in India.]] The [[East India House]] was built in 1729 on [[Leadenhall Street]] as the headquarters from which the East India Company administered its [[British Raj|Indian colonial possessions]]. The Company developed a very complex bureaucracy for the task, necessitating thousands of office employees to process the required paperwork. The Company recognized the benefits of centralized administration and required that all workers sign in and out at the central office each day.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23372401|title=How the office was invented|publisher=BBC|access-date=2012-12-17|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130722013846/http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23372401|archive-date=2013-07-22}}&lt;/ref&gt; As the [[Industrial Revolution]] intensified in the 18th and 19th centuries, the industries of [[bank]]ing, [[rail transport|rail]], [[insurance]], [[retail]], [[petroleum]], and [[telegraph]]y dramatically grew in size and complexity. Increasingly large number of clerks were needed to handle order processing, accounting, and document filing, and these clerks needed to be housed in increasingly specialized spaces. Most of the desks of the era were top-heavy and had a cubicle-like appearance, with paper storage bins extending above the desk-work area, offering workers some degree of privacy. The relatively high price of land in the central core of cities led to the first multi-story buildings, which were limited to about 10 stories until the use of [[Cast-iron architecture|iron and steel]] allowed for higher structures. The first purpose-built office block was the Brunswick Building, built in [[Liverpool]] in 1841.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.liverpoolwiki.org/Liverpool_Firsts|title=Liverpool Firsts|access-date=2012-12-17|url-status=dead|archive-url=https://archive.today/20131220134929/http://www.liverpoolwiki.org/Liverpool_Firsts|archive-date=2013-12-20}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Contradictory inline|reason=two paragraphs up, the same claim is made about the Somerset House|date=April 2023}} The invention of the safety [[Screw-drive elevator|elevator]] in 1852 by [[Elisha Otis]] enabled the rapid upward escalation of buildings.&lt;ref name=Long/&gt; By the end of the 19th century, larger office buildings frequently contained large glass [[atrium (architecture)|atrium]]s to allow light into the complex and improve air circulation. ===20th century=== [[File:Office speaking tubes 1903.jpg|right|thumb|An office in 1903, equipped with [[speaking tube]]s]] By 1906, [[Sears]], Roebuck, and Co. had opened their headquarters operation in a {{convert|3000000|sqft|m2|adj=on}} building in Chicago, at the time the largest building in the world.{{cn|date=May 2024}} The [[time and motion study]], pioneered in manufacturing by [[F. W. Taylor]] and later applied to the office environment by [[Frank Bunker Gilbreth|Frank]] and [[Lillian Moller Gilbreth|Lillian Gilbreth]], led to the idea that managers needed to play an active role in directing the work of subordinates to increase the efficiency of the workplace. F.W. Taylor advocated the use of large, open floor plans and desks that faced supervisors.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Psychology of the Office Space|url=http://appliedpsychologydegree.usc.edu/psychology-of-the-office-space/|website=University of Southern California Master of Science in Applied Psychology|access-date=28 January 2015|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150127105128/http://appliedpsychologydegree.usc.edu/psychology-of-the-office-space/|archive-date=27 January 2015}}&lt;/ref&gt; As a result, in 1915, the [[Equitable Life Insurance Company]] in New York City introduced the &quot;Modern Efficiency Desk&quot; with a flat top and drawers below, designed to allow managers an easy view of the workers. This led to a demand for large square footage per floor in buildings, and a return to the open spaces that were seen in pre–industrial revolution buildings.&lt;ref name=Long/&gt; [[File:Photograph of the Division of Classification and Cataloging, 1937.tif|right|thumb|1937 image of the Division of Classification and Cataloging, [[National Archives]], [[United States]]]] However, by the midpoint of the 20th century, it became apparent that an efficient office required more privacy in order to combat tedium, increase productivity, and encourage creativity. In 1964, the [[Herman Miller (office equipment)]] company contracted [[Robert Propst (inventor)|Robert Propst]], a prolific industrial designer. Propst came up with the concept of the [[Action Office]], which later evolved into the [[cubicle]] office furniture system.&lt;ref name=Long/&gt; Offices in Japan have developed unique characteristics partly as a result of the country's unique business culture. Japanese offices tend to follow [[open plan]] layouts in an 'island-style' arrangement, which promotes teamwork and top-down management.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal | last1 = Noro | first1 = Kageyu | last2 = Fujimaki | first2 = Goroh | last3 = Kishi | first3 = Shinsuke | title = Evidence-based ergonomics: a comparison of Japanese and American office layouts | journal = International Journal of Occupational Safety and Ergonomics | volume = 9 | issue = 4 | pages = 527&amp;ndash;538 | doi = 10.1080/10803548.2003.11076588 | pmid = 14675524 | date = 2003 | s2cid = 32155122 | doi-access = free }}&lt;/ref&gt; They also use ''uchi-awase'' (informal meetings) and ''ringi-sho'' (consensus systems) to encourage input on policies from as many groups throughout the office as possible.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book | last = Lewis | first = Richard D. | title = When cultures collide: leading across cultures | page = [https://archive.org/details/whenculturescoll00lewi_0/page/511 511] | publisher = Nicholas Brealey | location = Bostion | year = 2015 | edition = 3rd | isbn = 9781904838029 | url-access = registration | url = https://archive.org/details/whenculturescoll00lewi_0/page/511 }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Office spaces== {{unreferenced section|date=September 2021}} {{importance section|date=May 2024|reason=This seemingly unsourced typology of office spaces may do more harm than good in describing office layouts, as their design is often fluid, adaptable, and not easily confined to these rigid categories. Also potentially original research/editorializing?}} The main purpose of an office environment&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2022-12-08 |title=Office Environment {{!}} NIOSH {{!}} CDC |url=https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/office-environment/about/index.html |access-date=2024-05-17 |website=www.cdc.gov |language=en-us}}&lt;/ref&gt; is to support its occupants in performing their jobs—preferably at minimum cost and with maximum satisfaction. Different people performing different tasks will require different office spaces, or spaces that can handle a variety of uses. To aid decision-making in workplace and office design, one can distinguish three different types of office spaces: workspaces, meeting spaces, and support spaces. For new or developing businesses, remote satellite offices and project rooms, or [[serviced offices]], can provide a simple solution and provide all of the former types of space. ===Workspaces=== Workspaces in an office are typically used for conventional office activities such as reading, writing, and computer work. There are {{According to whom|nine generic types of workspaces,|date=May 2024}} each supporting different activities. &lt;gallery&gt; File:open office.png|Open office File:team space.png|Team space File:cubicle.png|Cubicle &lt;/gallery&gt; '''Open office''': an open workspace for more than ten people; suitable for activities that demand frequent communication or routine activities that need relatively little concentration. '''Team space''': a semi-enclosed workspace for two to eight people; suitable for teamwork which demands frequent internal communication and a medium level of concentration. '''Cubicle''': a semi-enclosed workspace for one person; suitable for activities that demand medium concentration and medium interaction. '''Office Pod''': ideal for fostering privacy in today's bustling open-plan offices. It provides a cost-effective and efficient way to ensure privacy and continuity during conversations, calls, and video conferences. &lt;gallery&gt; File:private office.png|Private office File:shared office.png|Shared office File:team room.png|Team room &lt;/gallery&gt; '''Private office''': an enclosed workspace for one person; suitable for activities that are confidential, demand a lot of concentration, or include many small meetings. '''Shared office''': a compact, semi-private workspace designed for two or three individuals, facilitating both focused work and small group collaboration. '''Team room''': an enclosed workspace for four to ten people; suitable for teamwork that may be confidential and demands frequent internal communication. &lt;gallery&gt; File:study booth.png|Study booth File:work lounge.png|Work lounge File:touch down.png|Touch down &lt;/gallery&gt; '''Study booth''': an enclosed workspace for one person; suitable for short-term activities that demand concentration or confidentiality. '''Work lounge''': a lounge-like workspace for two to six people; suitable for short-term activities that demand collaboration and/or allow impromptu interaction. '''Touch down''': an open workspace for one person; suitable for short-term activities that require little concentration and low interaction. ===Meeting spaces=== Meeting spaces in an office typically use interactive processes, be they quick conversations or intensive brainstorming. There are {{According to whom|six generic types of meeting spaces,|date=May 2024}} each supporting different activities. &lt;gallery&gt; File:small meeting room.png|Small meeting room File:large meeting room.png|Large meeting room File:small meeting space.png|Small meeting space &lt;/gallery&gt; '''Small meeting room''': an enclosed meeting space for two to four people; suitable for both formal and informal interaction. '''Medium meeting room''': an enclosed meeting space for four to ten people; suitable for both formal and informal interaction. '''Large meeting room''': an enclosed meeting space for ten or more people; suitable for formal interaction. '''Small meeting space''': an open or semi-open meeting space for two to four persons; suitable for short, informal interaction. &lt;gallery&gt; File:large meeting space.png|Large meeting space File:brainstorm room.png|Brainstorm room File:meeting point.png|Meeting point &lt;/gallery&gt; '''Medium meeting space''': an open or semi-open meeting space for four to ten persons; suitable for short, informal interaction. '''Large meeting space''': an open or semi-open meeting space for ten or more people people; suitable for short, informal interaction. '''Brainstorm room''': an enclosed meeting space for five to twelve people; suitable for brainstorming sessions and workshops. '''Meeting point''': an open meeting point for two to four people; suitable for ad hoc, informal meetings. ===Support spaces=== Support spaces in an office are typically used for secondary activities such as filing documents or taking breaks. There are {{According to whom|twelve generic types of support spaces,|date=May 2024}} each supporting different activities. &lt;gallery&gt; File:filing space.png|Filing space File:storage sapce.png|Storage space File:print and copy area.png|Print and copy area &lt;/gallery&gt; '''Filing space''': an open or enclosed support space for the storage of frequently used files and documents. '''Storage space''': an open or enclosed support space for the storage of commonly used office supplies. '''Print and copy area''': an open or enclosed support space with facilities for printing, scanning and copying. &lt;gallery&gt; File:mail area.png|Mail area File:pantry area.png|Pantry area File:break area.png|Break area &lt;/gallery&gt; '''Mail area''': an open or semi-open support space where employees can pick up or deliver their mail. '''Pantry area''': an open or enclosed support space where employees can get refreshments and where supplies for visitor hospitality are kept. '''Break area''': a semi-open or enclosed support space where employees can take a break from their work. &lt;gallery&gt; File:locker area.png|Locker area File:smoking room.png|Smoking room File:office library.png|Library &lt;/gallery&gt; '''Locker area''': an open or semi-open support space where employees can store their personal belongings. '''Smoking room''': an enclosed support space where employees can smoke a cigarette. '''Library''': a semi-open or enclosed support space for reading books, journals and magazines. &lt;gallery&gt; File:games room.png|Games room File:waiting area.png|Waiting area File:circulation space.png|Circulation space &lt;/gallery&gt; '''Games room''': an enclosed support space where employees can play games, such as pool or darts. '''Waiting area''': an open or semi-open support space where visitors can be received and wait for their appointment. '''Circulation space''': support space which is required for circulation on office floors, linking all major functions. '''[[Lactation room|Lactation rooms]]''' are also support spaces that are legally mandatory for companies in the United States, as of the 2010 Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.{{cn|date=May 2024}} ==Office structure== [[File:TradeMe offices.jpg|thumb|right|Open plan [[TradeMe]] offices, above [[NZX]], Wellington, New Zealand]] There are many different ways of arranging the space in an office. Managerial styles and the culture of specific companies are important factors in how office space will ultimately be used. One example of diverging office layout philosophies concerns how many people will work within the same room. At one extreme, each individual worker might have their own room; at the other extreme, a large [[open plan]] office might see tens or hundreds of people working in the same room. Open-plan offices put multiple workers together in the same space, and some studies{{which|date=May 2024}} have shown that they can improve short-term productivity, i.e. within a single [[software]] [[project]]. At the same time, the loss of privacy and security can increase the incidence of theft and loss of company secrets.{{cn|date=May 2024}} A type of compromise between open plan and individual rooms is provided by the [[cubicle desk]], possibly made most famous by the ''[[Dilbert]]'' cartoon series, which solves [[visual privacy]] to some extent but often fails on acoustic separation and security. Most cubicles also require the occupant to sit with their back towards anyone who might be approaching. Workers in walled offices typically try to position their normal work seats and desks so that they can see someone entering, and if that goal is not feasible, some install tiny mirrors on things such as computer monitors.{{nonspecific|date=May 2024|reason=Unclear how to verify this; does it need to be part of this section?}} According to research, open-plan offices are associated with increased stress, a rise in electronic communication, a 70% decrease in face-to-face interactions, a 25% uptick in negative moods, and up to a 20% drop in productivity due to distractions. In contrast, post-pandemic trends are favoring private &quot;cell-office plans,&quot; which address health precautions and have been reported to enhance productivity by up to 22%.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/open-plan-offices-arent-just-dumbest-management-fad-of-all-time-research-shows-they-also-make-people-sick.html |last=Haden | first=Jeff |title=Open Plan Offices Aren't Just the 'Dumbest Management Fad of All Time.' |work=inc.com |date=Jan 14, 2022 |access-date=Sep 7, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220114143936/https://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/open-plan-offices-arent-just-dumbest-management-fad-of-all-time-research-shows-they-also-make-people-sick.html |archive-date=January 14, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/stephaniesarkis/2021/01/17/post-pandemic-fight-for-an-end-to-the-open-plan-office/ |last=Sarkis | first=Stephanie |title=Post-Pandemic: Fight For An End To The Open-Plan Office |work=forbes.com |date=Jan 17, 2021 |access-date=Sep 7, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210118014956/https://www.forbes.com/sites/stephaniesarkis/2021/01/17/post-pandemic-fight-for-an-end-to-the-open-plan-office/ |archive-date=January 18, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/open-plan-office-noise-stress-mental-health-mood-work-employment-employees-welfare |last=Sander | first=Libby |title=The surprising toll open-plan offices have on our mental health |work=World Economic Forum |date=Jul 6, 2021 |access-date=Sep 7, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210706122728/https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/open-plan-office-noise-stress-mental-health-mood-work-employment-employees-welfare/ |archive-date=July 6, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Office buildings==&lt;!-- This section is linked from the redirect page &quot;Office building&quot;, linked from many articles --&gt; [[File:Salinas Office.jpg|thumb|A small office building in [[Salinas, California]], [[United States]]]] [[File:Alandia Trade Center, 2019 (01).jpg|thumb|Alandia Trade Center, a [[real estate]] office building in [[Mariehamn]], [[Åland]]]] [[File:Apple_park_cupertino_2019.jpg|thumb|[[Apple Inc.]] headquarters of [[neo-futuristic]] architecture at [[Apple Park]] in [[Cupertino, California]], [[United States]]]] [[File:View to One World Trade Center.jpg|thumb|upright|The [[One World Trade Center]] in [[Manhattan]] is a high-rise office building, the tallest of its kind in the U.S.]] While offices can be set up in almost any location and in almost any building, some modern requirements for offices make this more difficult. These requirements can be legal (such as sufficient light levels) or technical (such as requirements for computer networking). Other needs, such as security and layout flexibility, have prompted the creation of special [[building|buildings]] which are dedicated primarily for use as offices. An office building, also known as an office block or business center, is a form of [[commercial building]] which contains spaces mainly designed to be used for offices. The primary purpose of an office building is to provide a workplace and working environment primarily for administrative and managerial workers. These workers usually occupy set areas within the office building, and usually are provided with desks, PCs and other equipment they may need within their areas. An office building may be divided into sections for different companies, or it may be dedicated to one company. In either case, each company will typically have a reception area, one or several meeting rooms, singular or open-plan offices, and service rooms such as restrooms. Many office buildings also have kitchen facilities and a staff room, where workers can have lunch or take a short break. Some office spaces are now also [[serviced office]] spaces, allowing for those occupying a space or building to share facilities. ==Office and retail rental rates== Rental rates for office and retail space are typically quoted in terms of cost per floor-area–time, usually cost per floor-area per year or month. For example, the rate for a particular property may be $29 per square-foot per year ($29/sq. ft/yr) or $290 per square-meter per year ($290/m&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;/yr). In many countries, rent is typically paid monthly, even if usually discussed in terms of years.{{cn|date=May 2024}} Examples: * A particular 2,000 sq. ft space is priced at $15/sq. ft/yr, ultimately costing (2,000 sq. ft) × ($15/sq. ft/yr) / (12 mo/yr) = $2500 per month * A particular 200 m&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; space is priced at $150/m&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;/yr, ultimately costing (200 m&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;) × ($150/m&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;/yr) / (12 mo/yr) = $2500 per month In a ''gross lease'', the rate quoted is an all-inclusive rate. The renter pays a set amount of rent per time and the landlord is responsible for all other expenses, including payments for utilities, taxes, insurance, maintenance, and repairs. The ''triple net'' lease is one in which the tenant is liable for a share of various expenses such as property taxes, insurance, maintenance, utilities, climate control, repairs, janitorial services and landscaping. Office rents in the United States are still recovering from the high vacancy rates that occurred in the wake of the [[Great Recession|2008 depression]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.baruch.cuny.edu/realestate/pdf/This-Recovery%20-Explained.pdf |title=This Recovery Explained |publisher=The Steven L. Newman Real Estate Institute |date=Spring 2011 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130517045600/http://www.baruch.cuny.edu/realestate/pdf/This-Recovery%20-Explained.pdf |archive-date=2013-05-17 }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Grading== The Building Owners and Managers Association (BOMA) classifies office space into three categories: Class A, Class B, and Class C.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news | author=Kennedy Smith | title=Categorization of office space is flexible | url=http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4185/is_20060630/ai_n16516895/ | work=St. Louis Daily Record &amp; St. Louis Countian | date=30 June 2006 | access-date=9 September 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; According to BOMA, Class A office buildings have the &quot;most prestigious buildings competing for premier office users with rents above average for the area.&quot; BOMA states that Class A facilities have &quot;high-quality standard finishes, state of the art systems, exceptional accessibility and a definite market presence.&quot; BOMA describes Class B office buildings as those that compete &quot;for a wide range of users with rents in the average range for the area.&quot; BOMA states that Class B buildings have &quot;adequate systems&quot; and finishes that &quot;are fair to good for the area,&quot; but that the buildings do not compete at the same price rates as Class A buildings. According to BOMA, Class C buildings are aimed towards &quot;tenants requiring functional space at rents below the average for the area.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.boma.org/research/Pages/building-class-definitions.aspx|access-date=18 July 2013|title=Building Class Definitions|url-status=dead|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130827220305/http://www.boma.org/research/Pages/building-class-definitions.aspx|archive-date=27 August 2013}}&lt;/ref&gt; The lack of specifics allows considerable room for pushing the boundaries of these BOMA categories. Oftentimes, they are further modified by adding the plus or minus sign to create subclasses, such as Class A+ or Class B-.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=CLASS A+ OFFICE SPACE|url=http://www.cbre.us/o/indianapolis/AssetLibrary/RiverNorth_Flyer.pdf|website=cbre.us|access-date=21 September 2016|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161009000131/http://www.cbre.us/o/indianapolis/AssetLibrary/RiverNorth_Flyer.pdf|archive-date=9 October 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; == See also == {{col-begin}} {{col-break}} ; Physical *[[Business park]] *[[Corner office]] *[[Executive suite]] *[[Factory]] *[[Office space planning]] *[[Office supplies]] *[[Over-illumination]] *[[Steel building]]s *[[Warehouse]] {{col-break}} {{Portal|Business|Architecture}} ; Soft issues *[[Business attire]] *[[Office management]] *[[Workplace politics|Office politics]] *[[Sick building syndrome]] {{col-end}} ==References== {{Reflist}} ==Further reading== * {{cite book | last = Adams | first = Scott | title = What do you call a sociopath in a cubicle? (answer, a coworker) | publisher = Andrews McMeel Pub. | location = Kansas City, Missouri | year = 2002}} * {{cite book | editor-last1 = Duffy | editor-first1 = Francis | editor-last2 = Cave | editor-first2 = Colin | editor-last3 = Worthington | editor-first3 = John | title = Planning Office Space | publisher = The Architectural Press Ltd. | location = London | year = 1976}} * {{cite book | last = Klein | first = Judy Graf | title = The Office Book | url = https://archive.org/details/officebookideasa00klei | url-access = registration | publisher = Facts on File Inc. | location = New York | year = 1982| isbn = 9780871964991 }} * {{cite book | last1 = van Meel | first1 = Juriaan | last2 = Martens | first2 = Yuri | last3 = van Ree | first3 = Hermen Jan | title = Planning Office Spaces: a practical guide for manager and designers | publisher = Laurence King Publishing | location = London | year = 2010}} * {{cite book | last = Saval | first = Nikil | title = Cubed: A Secret History of the Workplace | publisher = Doubleday | year = 2014}} * {{Cite journal |last= Roderick |first= Ian |title=Representing affective labour and gender performativity in knowledge work: a multimodal critical discourse analysis |journal=[[Gender and Language]] |volume=10 |issue=3 |pages=340&amp;ndash;363 |doi=10.1558/genl.v10i3.32040 |year=2016 }} ==External links== {{Commons category|Offices}} * [http://www.officemuseum.com/ Early Office Museum] {{Office types}} {{Workplace}} {{Authority control}} [[Category:Office administration| ]] [[Category:Office buildings| ]] [[Category:Rooms]]</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:194.38.172.194&diff=1259674064</id> <title>User talk:194.38.172.194</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:194.38.172.194&diff=1259674064"/> <updated>2024-11-26T13:04:38Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for disruptive editing. <hr /> <div>==November 2023== Please do not change 'Catalan' to 'Spanish' as you did [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Carles_Puigdemont&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1187480260 here]. National and regional origins can be a very sensitive issue, and changes like this are [[:WP:DISRUPT|disruptive]] in articles with a strong connection to a particular region or country. Thank you. [[User:BlackcurrantTea|BlackcurrantTea]] ([[User talk:BlackcurrantTea|talk]]) 17:01, 29 November 2023 (UTC) :Please do not erase illegal as the referendum as illegal. [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 12:30, 30 November 2023 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=|link=]] Hello, I'm [[User:Adakiko|Adakiko]]. Wikipedia is written by people who have a wide diversity of opinions, but we try hard to make sure articles have a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]]. Your recent edit to [[:Carles Puigdemont]] seemed less than neutral to me, so I removed it for now. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on [[User_talk:Adakiko|my talk page]]. Thank you. &lt;!-- Template:Huggle/warn-npov-1 --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-npov1 --&gt;[[User:Adakiko|Adakiko]] ([[User talk:Adakiko|talk]]) 12:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC) :Hi [[User:Adakiko|Adakiko]]. Mr. Puigdemont has a Spanish passport not a Catalan passport. Catalonia is not an official country recognized by the UN whereas Spain is. [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 15:07, 24 September 2024 (UTC) == January 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:Jamedeus|Jamedeus]]. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, [[:Luís da Cunha]], but you didn't provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]]. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|include a citation]] and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at [[Help:Referencing for beginners|referencing for beginners]]. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on [[User talk:Jamedeus|my talk page]]. Thank you. &lt;!-- Template:uw-unsourced1 --&gt; [[User:Jamedeus|Jamedeus]] ([[User talk:Jamedeus|talk]]) 00:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC) :Hi Jamadeus. I found his name here https://www.slavevoyages.org/voyage/database#results data come from here '''AHU,Guiné,Cx.1,D.52: ''Arquivo Historico Ultramarino'' (Lisbon), SEMU-DGU. You can put his name in the database and you will find him.''' [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 15:12, 24 September 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; == July 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]]. I wanted to let you know that one or more of [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|your recent contributions]]&amp;#32;to [[:Francisco Menéndez (black soldier)]] have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the [[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]] or the [[Wikipedia:Help desk|Help desk]]. Thanks.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --&gt; [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 15:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; == Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Speaking community to trans atlantic african slaves traded ratio|Speaking community to trans atlantic african slaves traded ratio]] (September 24) == &lt;div style=&quot;border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;&quot;&gt; [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.&lt;nowiki&gt; &lt;/nowiki&gt;The reason left by Qcne was: {{divbox|gray|3=This submission is not suitable for Wikipedia. Please read [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not|&quot;What Wikipedia is not&quot;]] for more information.|}}&lt;!-- -- --&gt; Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''. {{clear}} * If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:Speaking community to trans atlantic african slaves traded ratio]] and click on the &quot;Edit&quot; tab at the top of the window. * If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]]. * If you need any assistance, or have experienced any [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Scam warning|untoward behavior]] associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&amp;withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&amp;page=Draft:Speaking_community_to_trans_atlantic_african_slaves_traded_ratio '''Articles for creation help desk''']&lt;/span&gt;, on the &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Qcne&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new&amp;nosummary=1&amp;preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&amp;preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:Speaking_community_to_trans_atlantic_african_slaves_traded_ratio '''reviewer's talk page''']&lt;/span&gt; or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors]]. &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;Qcne&lt;/span&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 15:31, 24 September 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;!--Template:AfC decline--&gt; {| style=&quot;margin: 0.4em 2em;&quot; |- style=&quot;vertical-align: top;&quot; | [[File:WP teahouse logo 2.png|alt=Teahouse logo]] | &lt;div style=&quot;background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;&quot;&gt;Hello, '''194.38.172.194'''! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;Qcne&lt;/span&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 15:31, 24 September 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt; |}&lt;!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --&gt; [[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]] == October 2024 == [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please do not remove content or templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Slavery in colonial Spanish America]], without giving a valid reason for the removal in the [[Help:Edit summary|edit summary]]. Your content removal does not appear to be constructive and has been [[Help:Reverting|reverted]]. If you only meant to make a test edit, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]] for that. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-delete2 --&gt; [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 14:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC) :Hi Drmies, many of the references cited are to literature and not historical documents, as well as to literary blogs with no historical connection. Please be more rigorous in the references used since wikipedia has rules that must be followed. [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 14:54, 8 October 2024 (UTC) ::You may argue your point on the article talk page. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 15:06, 8 October 2024 (UTC) :::Done thank you. Please check the references! [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 14:07, 14 October 2024 (UTC) [[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=|link=]] Please stop your [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|disruptive editing]]. * If you are engaged in an article [[Wikipedia:Editing policy|content dispute]] with another editor, discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the [[:Talk:Slavery in Colombia|article's talk page]], and seek [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] with them. Alternatively you can read Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]] page, and ask for independent help at one of the [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution#Ask for help at a relevant noticeboard|relevant noticeboards]]. * If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, seek assistance at Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents|Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]]. If you continue to disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Slavery in Colombia]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. ''You may argue your point on the talk page.''&lt;!-- Template:uw-disruptive3 --&gt; [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 17:19, 14 October 2024 (UTC) :Drmies is threatening to report me in my talk page if I change the version of this article he wants to publish even though the version I want to publish has academic references and is a literal translation of the article in Spanish. Please help me with this injustice. [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 12:56, 15 October 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Drmies|Drmies]] Please check the version I am publishing as it has more academic references. [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 13:01, 15 October 2024 (UTC) :I have revised the text in accordance with your suggestion. You were correct; I did not write it properly at first. [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 14:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC) ::You were reverted by another editor, [[User:Babysharkboss2]]. I think it's time to actually discuss these edits on the article talk page, and do it piecemeal. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 14:47, 15 October 2024 (UTC) [[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|left|alt=Stop icon]] Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an [[Wikipedia:Edit warring|edit war]]; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the [[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines|talk page]] to work toward making a version that represents [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about [[WP:EPTALK|how this is done]]. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant [[Wikipedia:Noticeboards|noticeboard]] or seek [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]]. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary [[Wikipedia:Protection policy|page protection]]. '''Being involved in an edit war can result in you being [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]'''&amp;mdash;especially if you violate the [[Wikipedia:Edit warring#The three-revert rule|three-revert rule]], which states that an editor must not perform more than three [[Help:Reverting|reverts]] on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring&amp;mdash;'''even if you do not violate the three-revert rule'''&amp;mdash;should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.&lt;!-- Template:uw-3rr --&gt; [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 20:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC) :Dear Drmies, I addressed the issue that Babysharkboss2 pointed out regarding the opinion, while retaining all the other referenced content. I simply translated the content from the Spanish page. I kindly ask that you review my edits, as I put in a lot of effort. I am a bit puzzled by your mention of an edit war, as I believe I have only added valuable content with proper sources to the page. Thank you for your understanding. [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 06:37, 16 October 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; == Fish! == {| style=&quot;margin: 2em auto; text-align: center;&quot; |- | [[File:Rainbow trout transparent.png|175px|link=Wikipedia:Trout]] | style=&quot;width: 280px; vertical-align: middle; padding-top: 0.5em;&quot; | &lt;p style=&quot;font-size: 225%; color: Red;&quot;&gt;'''''Whack!'''''&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p style=&quot;font-size: 115%;&quot;&gt;''You've been [[Wikipedia:Whacking with a wet trout|whacked with a wet trout]].''&lt;/p&gt;&lt;small&gt;Being ''too'' silly&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!--Template:Trout--&gt; |} [[User:Babysharkboss2|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red; font-family: Comic Sans MS;&quot;&gt;Babysharkboss2!!&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;Actin' like a maniac!&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/sup&gt; 13:54, 15 October 2024 (UTC) :I have revised the text in accordance with Drmies suggestion. He was correct; I did not write it properly at first. [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 14:39, 15 October 2024 (UTC) == Your edits of [[Carles Puigdemont]] == In case I was too brief in the edit description, I want to explain my revert of your edits in more detail, because I see that you have reinstated your edits multiple times now without addressing the issues described. Firstly, it's not appropriate to insert multiple wikilinks to the same word in one article, especially for a very easily-understood word such as &quot;Spain&quot;. Please familiarise yourself with the guidelines at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Linking#What_generally_should_not_be_linked Manual of Style: Overlinking] and especially note: # &quot;major examples of the following categories should generally not be linked: Countries&quot; # &quot;The purpose of linking is to clarify and to provide reasonable navigation opportunities, not to emphasize a particular word. Do not link solely to draw attention to certain words or ideas, or as a mark of respect.&quot; Secondly, your assertion that someone has to have a &quot;Catalan passport&quot; to be considered [[Catalans|Catalan]] is not logical. The page itself describes what is meant by the term. I do not believe you are attempting to assert that there is evidence that the term was misapplied, only that you do not think the term has value. The [[Carles Puigdemont]] article is not the right place for this. Please familiarise yourself with the guidelines at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Context Manual of Style: Biography] and particularly: * &quot;A 2018 RfC on Spanish regional identity in the lead resulted in consensus to use the regional identity that reliable sources use most often and with which the subject identifies.&quot; I will again revert your most recent edit, which additionally introduced an incorrect wikilink from the text (of the former link) '[[Catalan declaration of independence]]' to '[[illegal]]' instead. Please refrain from repeatedly making such edits to this and other articles. [[User:Turtlecrown|Turtlecrown]] ([[User talk:Turtlecrown|talk]]) 14:38, 15 October 2024 (UTC) :I do not agree with your assertions. As you can see in my latest edition, I have rectified the repetitive allusions to your Spanish nationality, and I have appended 'illegal' to the unilateral referendum, which was indeed illegal. I urge you to review my edit and give it due consideration before criticizing the previously corrected edit. Thank you [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 14:46, 15 October 2024 (UTC) ::You are mistaken. Specifically, the revert you just made, again: ::* introduces six wikilinks to Spain ::* changes the link to the referendum so that it wrongly points to the page called '[[illegal]]' ::The edit only reverted to the same version without addressing any of the issues cited above. Maybe you need to double-check which content you are reverting, especially when doing so repeatedly and with multiple editors. I have given detailed consideration to your edit above. In the same spirit, I urge you to review the guidelines, and give them the same consideration. [[User:Turtlecrown|Turtlecrown]] ([[User talk:Turtlecrown|talk]]) 15:59, 15 October 2024 (UTC) :::Dear @[[User:Turtlecrown|Turtlecrown]], Thank you for your message. I have revised the reference to the illegal independence referendum to comply with the editing guidelines. I apologize for not paying attention to that. Your guidance is much appreciated. [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 06:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC) == ANI == [[File:Information icon4.svg|link=|25px|alt=Information icon]] There is currently a discussion at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.&lt;!--Template:Discussion notice--&gt;&lt;!--Template:ANI-notice--&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Obi2canibe|Obi2canibe]] ([[User talk:Obi2canibe|talk)]] 20:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC) == Edit warring == [[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|left|alt=Stop icon]] Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an [[Wikipedia:Edit warring|edit war]]; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the [[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines|talk page]] to work toward making a version that represents [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about [[WP:EPTALK|how this is done]]. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant [[Wikipedia:Noticeboards|noticeboard]] or seek [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]]. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary [[Wikipedia:Protection policy|page protection]]. '''Being involved in an edit war can result in you being [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]'''&amp;mdash;especially if you violate the [[Wikipedia:Edit warring#The three-revert rule|three-revert rule]], which states that an editor must not perform more than three [[Help:Reverting|reverts]] on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring&amp;mdash;'''even if you do not violate the three-revert rule'''&amp;mdash;should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.&lt;!-- Template:uw-3rr --&gt; [[User:Theklan|Theklan]] ([[User talk:Theklan|talk]]) 20:31, 17 October 2024 (UTC) == October 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''36 hours''' for [[WP:Edit warring|edit warring]], as done at [[:Carles Puigdemont]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;During a dispute, you should first try to [[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines|discuss controversial changes]] and seek [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]]. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]], and in some cases it may be appropriate to request [[Wikipedia:Protection policy|page protection]].&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 21:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-ewblock --&gt; [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello. Regarding the recent revert you made&amp;#32;to [[:Aimeé García Marrero]]: you may already know about them, but you might find [[Wikipedia:Template index/User talk namespace]] useful. After a revert, these can be placed on the user's talk page to let them know you considered their edit inappropriate, and also direct new users towards the [[Wikipedia:sandbox|sandbox]]. They can also be used to give a stern warning to a [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandal]] when they've been previously warned. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:Uw-warn --&gt; [[User:Smasongarrison|Mason]] ([[User talk:Smasongarrison|talk]]) 23:27, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :my mistake. Thanks [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 13:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; == Your edit to Francisco Menéndez (black soldier) == Please start a discussion on [[Talk:Francisco Menéndez (black soldier)]] before editing the article again. Avoid [[WP:Edit warring|edit warring]]. Please see [[WP:BRD|BOLD, revert, discuss cycle]], which offers advice on how to manage disputes that many of us support. Abstracts are not considered good sources because they often leave out important details. You seem intent on blaming the British for Menéndez's enslavement, which may be a [[WP:NPOV|point-of-view]] issue. As I say, please discuss the change(s) you want to make and wait for a consensus to form on the talk page to so. As it stands, there are two of us who have reverted your edits. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 16:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :It is important to acknowledge that he was subjected to enslavement by the British, a claim substantiated by the provided references. I kindly request that further reversions of this content be avoided, as it has escalated into an edit war. Should you wish to propose any modifications, please ensure that you provide corresponding references to support your claims, and refrain from repeatedly reverting my contributions. I’d appreciate it if you could take a moment to look over the references I’m sharing, starting with [https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/112/3/764/27608 this one] and [https://books.google.ch/books?id=V1V7EAAAQBAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;hl=es&amp;source=gbs_ge_summary_r&amp;cad=0 this one] ! Your insights would mean a lot. [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 08:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC) == CS1 error on [[Francisco Menéndez (black soldier)]] == [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=|link=]] Hello, I'm [[User:Qwerfjkl (bot)|Qwerfjkl (bot)]]. I have '''automatically detected''' that [[Special:Diff/1255515181|this edit]] performed by you, on the page [[:Francisco Menéndez (black soldier)]], may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows: * A [[:Category:CS1 errors: bare URL|bare URL]] error. References show this error when one of the URL-containing parameters cannot be paired with an associated title. Please edit the article to add the appropriate title parameter to the reference. ([//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Francisco_Men%C3%A9ndez_(black_soldier)&amp;action=edit&amp;minor=minor&amp;summary=Fixing+reference+error+raised+by+%5B%5BUser%3AQwerfjkl%20(bot)%7CQwerfjkl%20(bot)%5D%5D Fix] | [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new&amp;preload=User:Qwerfjkl%20(bot)/helpform&amp;preloadtitle=Referencing%20errors%20on%20%5B%5BSpecial%3ADiff%2F1255515181%7CFrancisco%20Menéndez%20(black%20soldier)%5D%5D Ask for help]) Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a [[false positive]], you can [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&amp;preload=User:Qwerfjkl/Botpreload&amp;editintro=User:Qwerfjkl/boteditintro&amp;minor=&amp;title=User_talk:Qwerfjkl&amp;preloadtitle=Qwerfjkl%20(bot)%20–%20194.38.172.194&amp;section=new&amp;preloadparams%5b%5d={{FULLPAGENAMEE:Francisco Menéndez (black soldier)}}&amp;preloadparams%5b%5d=1255515181 report it to my operator]. Thanks, &lt;!-- User:Qwerfjkl (bot)/inform --&gt;[[User:Qwerfjkl (bot)|Qwerfjkl (bot)]] ([[User talk:Qwerfjkl (bot)|talk]]) 09:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi I just fixed it! [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 11:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC) == November 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello. I have noticed that you {{usertalk other|[https://xtools.wmflabs.org/editsummary/en.wikipedia.org/{{urlencode:194.38.172.194|PATH}} often]|often}} edit without using an [[Help:Edit summary|edit summary]]. Please do your best to '''always fill in the summary field'''. This helps your fellow editors use their time more productively, rather than spending it unnecessarily scrutinizing and verifying your work. Even a short summary is better than no summary, and summaries are particularly important for large, complex, or potentially controversial edits. To help yourself remember, you may wish to check the &quot;prompt me when entering a blank edit summary&quot; box in [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing|your preferences]]. Thanks! &lt;!-- Template:Uw-editsummary2 --&gt; [[User:Smasongarrison|&lt;sup&gt;S&lt;/sup&gt;Mason&lt;sub&gt;Garrison&lt;/sub&gt;]] 21:19, 5 November 2024 (UTC) :Thank you! [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 14:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; [[File:Ambox warning pn.svg|30px|link=]] You currently appear to be engaged in an [[WP:Edit warring|edit war]]&amp;#32; according to the reverts you have made on [[:Francisco Menéndez (black soldier)]]. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to [[Wikipedia:Consensus#In talk pages|collaborate]] with others, to avoid editing [[WP:Disruptive editing|disruptively]], and to [[WP:Consensus|try to reach a consensus]], rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement. Points to note: # '''Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;''' # '''Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.''' If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's [[Help:Talk pages|talk page]] to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an [[WP:Noticeboards|appropriate noticeboard]] or seek [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]]. In some cases, it may be appropriate to [[WP:Requests for page protection|request temporary page protection]]. If you engage in an edit war, you '''may be [[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]] from editing.''' &lt;!-- Template:uw-ew --&gt; [[User:YesI'mOnFire|🔥&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;'''Yes'''&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:orangered&quot;&gt;'''I'mOnFire'''&lt;/span&gt;🔥]]&lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:YesI'mOnFire|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#00008B&quot;&gt;ContainThis&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;'''Ember?'''&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/sup&gt; 15:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi YesI'mOnnFire. This [[User:DonBeroni|user]] is undoing all my edits without even giving a reason [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 15:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :I’m at a loss here. It’s frustrating to see someone trying to rewrite history on their own terms without offering any solid explanations. I’m really disappointed with the Wikipedia system and how it allows these kinds of bully users to thrive. It’s disheartening when the integrity of information is compromised like this. [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 16:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::You really should take this to the talk page. Most of the edits that you have added are being questioned in the talk page, and you haven't truly addressed them or replied to the editors. ::I will revert the latest good version before you two started to edit, please start a discussion in the talk page. I will try to persuade him to try to discuss this with you, alright? [[User:YesI'mOnFire|🔥&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;'''Yes'''&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:orangered&quot;&gt;'''I'mOnFire'''&lt;/span&gt;🔥]]&lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:YesI'mOnFire|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#00008B&quot;&gt;ContainThis&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;'''Ember?'''&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/sup&gt; 16:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::Thanks so much for your help! I’ll make sure to include as many references as I can. [[Special:Contributions/194.38.172.194|194.38.172.194]] ([[User talk:194.38.172.194#top|talk]]) 16:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; == Unconstructive edits == [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Afro–Latin Americans]]. Your edits appear to be [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|disruptive]] and have been or will be [[Help:Reverting|reverted]]. * If you are engaged in an article [[Wikipedia:Editing policy|content dispute]] with another editor, please discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the [[:Talk:Afro–Latin Americans|article's talk page]], and seek [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] with them. Alternatively, you can read Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]] page, and ask for independent help at one of the [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution requests|relevant noticeboards]]. * If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, please seek assistance at Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents|Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]]. Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:List of policies|policies and guidelines]], and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|loss of editing privileges]]. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-disruptive2 --&gt; [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 20:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC) &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;You have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''2 weeks''' for [[WP:Edit warring|edit warring]]. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to [[WP:Five pillars|make useful contributions]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;During a dispute, you should first try to [[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines|discuss controversial changes]] and seek [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]]. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]], and in some cases it may be appropriate to request [[Wikipedia:Protection policy|page protection]].&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:Ponyo|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Navy;&quot;&gt;'''Ponyo'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Ponyo|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Navy;&quot;&gt;''bons mots''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-ewblock --&gt; == Slavery in colonial Spanish America == [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Slavery in colonial Spanish America]]. Your edits appear to be [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|disruptive]] and have been or will be [[Help:Reverting|reverted]]. * If you are engaged in an article [[Wikipedia:Editing policy|content dispute]] with another editor, please discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the [[:Talk:Slavery in colonial Spanish America|article's talk page]], and seek [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] with them. Alternatively, you can read Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]] page, and ask for independent help at one of the [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution requests|relevant noticeboards]]. * If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, please seek assistance at Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents|Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]]. Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:List of policies|policies and guidelines]], and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|loss of editing privileges]]. As this is not the first time you have been warned about this issue, you may need to brush up on the relevant policy before making further edits to the same pages. Where there is disagreement, you should always attempt to reach consensus on the talk page. I have also commented on the page in question, so feel free to join in the discussion there. When there is edit warring, or a dispute between editors, it's common practice to rollback the article to its last &quot;stable&quot; state (i.e., before you began editing it). This isn't siding with anyone, but to ensure any subsequent changes have consensus.&lt;!-- Template:uw-disruptive2 --&gt; [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 11:16, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :I am quite disappointed in you IP. After I left some dummy edits, which deliberately told that 'improving the article '''after the discussion''' ', you just jump right back into readding the content that you have been repeatedly reverted without reaching any consensus in the corresponding talk page. :Please, next time, try to reach any consensus before you repeatedly add information that other editors disagree with. Hopefully the 2-week block will help you come to your senses. :PS: At least I am glad that you actually tried to discuss with other editors instead of ignoring my advice. Really hope that you can continue contributing to Wikipedia. [[User:YesI'mOnFire|🔥&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;'''Yes'''&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:orangered&quot;&gt;'''I'mOnFire'''&lt;/span&gt;🔥]]&lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:YesI'mOnFire|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#00008B&quot;&gt;ContainThis&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;'''Ember?'''&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/sup&gt; 14:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC) == November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''1 month''' for persistently making [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|disruptive edits]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-disruptblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:12mrcel&diff=1259672708</id> <title>User talk:12mrcel</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:12mrcel&diff=1259672708"/> <updated>2024-11-26T12:54:46Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been indefinitely blocked from editing because your account is being used only for vandalism. <hr /> <div>== November 2024 == [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, 12mrcel, [[Help:Getting started|welcome to Wikipedia]] and thank you for [[Special:Contributions/12mrcel|your contributions]]. Your editing pattern indicates that you may be using multiple accounts or coordinating editing with people outside Wikipedia, such as {{User|LebronJananes}}. Our [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry|policy on multiple accounts]] usually does not allow this, and users who misuse multiple accounts may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. If you operate multiple accounts directly or with the help of another person, please [[:Category:Alternative Wikipedia account user templates|disclose]] these connections. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-agf-sock --&gt; [[User:AntiDionysius|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;AntiDionysius&lt;/span&gt;]] (&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;[[User talk:AntiDionysius|talk]]&lt;/span&gt;) 12:34, 26 November 2024 (UTC) [[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop. If you continue to [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Vrettos]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. &lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism3 --&gt; [[User:AntiDionysius|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;AntiDionysius&lt;/span&gt;]] (&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;[[User talk:AntiDionysius|talk]]&lt;/span&gt;) 12:51, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ==[[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy deletion]] nomination of [[:Marcel Papaharalambus-Vrettos]]== [[File:Ambox warning pn.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]] {{Quote box|quote=&lt;p&gt;If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read [[WP:Your first article|the guide to writing your first article]].&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You may want to consider using the [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]] to help you create articles.&lt;/p&gt;|width=20%|align=right}} A tag has been placed on [[:Marcel Papaharalambus-Vrettos]], requesting that it be deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under two or more of the [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|criteria for speedy deletion]], by which pages can be deleted at any time, without discussion. If the page meets any of these strictly defined criteria, then it may soon be deleted by an administrator. The reasons it has been tagged are: *It appears to be about a person, organization (band, club, company, ''etc.''), individual animal, or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. (See [[WP:CSD#A7|section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion]].) Such articles may be deleted at any time. Please [[Wikipedia:Notability|see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable]]. *It appears to be about [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not for things made up one day|something made up]], and it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. (See [[WP:CSD#A11|section A11 of the criteria for speedy deletion]].) If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may '''contest the nomination''' by [[:Marcel Papaharalambus-Vrettos|visiting the page]] and clicking the button labelled &quot;Contest this speedy deletion&quot;. This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]]. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the {{Querylink|Special:Log|qs=type=delete&amp;page=Marcel+Papaharalambus-Vrettos|deleting administrator}}, or if you have already done so, you can place a request [[WP:RFUD|here]]. [[User:AntiDionysius|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;AntiDionysius&lt;/span&gt;]] (&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;[[User talk:AntiDionysius|talk]]&lt;/span&gt;) 12:34, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ==[[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy deletion]] nomination of [[:Draft:Ioannis Vrettos II]]== [[File:Ambox warning pn.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]] Although everyone is welcome to contribute to Wikipedia, introducing hoaxes, such as [[:Draft:Ioannis Vrettos II]], is considered to be [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]] and is [[Wikipedia:Do not create hoaxes|prohibited]]. If you are interested in how accurate Wikipedia is, a more constructive test method would be to try to find inaccurate statements that are already in Wikipedia—and then to correct them if possible. If you would like to make test edits, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. Under [[Wikipedia:CSD#G3|section G3 of the criteria for speedy deletion]], the page has been nominated for deletion. Repeated vandalism may result in the '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|loss of editing privileges]]'''. If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may '''contest the nomination''' by [[:Draft:Ioannis Vrettos II|visiting the page]] and clicking the button labelled &quot;Contest this speedy deletion&quot;. This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]]. &lt;!-- Template:Db-hoax-notice --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --&gt; [[User:AntiDionysius|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;AntiDionysius&lt;/span&gt;]] (&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;[[User talk:AntiDionysius|talk]]&lt;/span&gt;) 12:35, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;You have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing because your account is [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Disruption-only|being used only for vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-voablock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LebronJananes&diff=1259672637</id> <title>User talk:LebronJananes</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LebronJananes&diff=1259672637"/> <updated>2024-11-26T12:54:14Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been indefinitely blocked from editing because your account is being used only for vandalism. <hr /> <div>== November 2024 == [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, LebronJananes, [[Help:Getting started|welcome to Wikipedia]] and thank you for [[Special:Contributions/LebronJananes|your contributions]]. Your editing pattern indicates that you may be using multiple accounts or coordinating editing with people outside Wikipedia, such as {{User|12mrcel}}. Our [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry|policy on multiple accounts]] usually does not allow this, and users who misuse multiple accounts may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. If you operate multiple accounts directly or with the help of another person, please [[:Category:Alternative Wikipedia account user templates|disclose]] these connections. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-agf-sock --&gt; [[User:AntiDionysius|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;AntiDionysius&lt;/span&gt;]] (&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;[[User talk:AntiDionysius|talk]]&lt;/span&gt;) 12:33, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ==[[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy deletion]] nomination of [[:Draft:Uzbekistan Basketball League]]== [[File:Ambox warning pn.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]] Although everyone is welcome to contribute to Wikipedia, introducing hoaxes, such as [[:Draft:Uzbekistan Basketball League]], is considered to be [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]] and is [[Wikipedia:Do not create hoaxes|prohibited]]. If you are interested in how accurate Wikipedia is, a more constructive test method would be to try to find inaccurate statements that are already in Wikipedia—and then to correct them if possible. If you would like to make test edits, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. Under [[Wikipedia:CSD#G3|section G3 of the criteria for speedy deletion]], the page has been nominated for deletion. Repeated vandalism may result in the '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|loss of editing privileges]]'''. If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may '''contest the nomination''' by [[:Draft:Uzbekistan Basketball League|visiting the page]] and clicking the button labelled &quot;Contest this speedy deletion&quot;. This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]]. &lt;!-- Template:Db-hoax-notice --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --&gt; [[User:AntiDionysius|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;AntiDionysius&lt;/span&gt;]] (&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps&quot;&gt;[[User talk:AntiDionysius|talk]]&lt;/span&gt;) 12:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Uzbekistan Basketball League|Uzbekistan Basketball League]] (November 26) == &lt;div style=&quot;border: solid 1px #F99; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;&quot;&gt; [[File:Dialog-STOP.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission has been rejected and cannot be resubmitted. If you have further questions, you can ask at the &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&amp;withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&amp;page=Draft:Uzbekistan_Basketball_League '''Articles for creation help desk''']&lt;/span&gt; or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help]].&lt;nowiki&gt; &lt;/nowiki&gt;The reason&lt;!-- pluralize &quot;reason&quot; --&gt;&lt;!--empty--&gt; left by TyphoonAmpil was: This submission is [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia]].&lt;!-- -- --&gt; {{clear}} [[User:TyphoonAmpil|&lt;span style=&quot;color:navy;&quot;&gt;'''Ampil'''&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:TyphoonAmpil|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FF738A;&quot;&gt;'''Ταικ'''&lt;/span&gt;]] • [[Special:Contributions/TyphoonAmpil|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#fcacb9;&quot;&gt;'''Cοnτribυτιοns'''&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/sup&gt; 12:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;!--Template:AfC reject--&gt; == Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Theo Stathoulis|Theo Stathoulis]] (November 26) == &lt;div style=&quot;border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;&quot;&gt; [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.&lt;nowiki&gt; &lt;/nowiki&gt;The reason left by KylieTastic was: {{divbox|gray|3=This submission's references do not show that the subject [[Wikipedia:Notability|qualifies for a Wikipedia article]]—that is, they do not show ''significant'' coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in ''published'', [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|''reliable'']], [[Wikipedia:No_original_research#Secondary|''secondary'']] sources that are ''[[Wikipedia:Independent sources|independent]]'' of the subject (see the [[Wikipedia:Notability (sports)|guidelines for sports persons and athletes]]). Before any resubmission, additional references meeting these criteria should be added (see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|technical help]] and learn about [[Wikipedia:Common sourcing mistakes (notability)|mistakes to avoid]] when addressing this issue). If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.|}}&lt;!-- -- --&gt; Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''. {{clear}} * If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:Theo Stathoulis]] and click on the &quot;Edit&quot; tab at the top of the window. * If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]]. * If you need any assistance, or have experienced any [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Scam warning|untoward behavior]] associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&amp;withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&amp;page=Draft:Theo_Stathoulis '''Articles for creation help desk''']&lt;/span&gt;, on the &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:KylieTastic&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new&amp;nosummary=1&amp;preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&amp;preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:Theo_Stathoulis '''reviewer's talk page''']&lt;/span&gt; or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors]]. [[User:KylieTastic|KylieTastic]] ([[User talk:KylieTastic|talk]]) 12:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;!--Template:AfC decline--&gt; {| style=&quot;margin: 0.4em 2em;&quot; |- style=&quot;vertical-align: top;&quot; | [[File:WP teahouse logo 2.png|alt=Teahouse logo]] | &lt;div style=&quot;background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;&quot;&gt;Hello, '''LebronJananes'''! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:KylieTastic|KylieTastic]] ([[User talk:KylieTastic|talk]]) 12:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt; |}&lt;!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --&gt; [[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]] == November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;You have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing because your account is [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Disruption-only|being used only for vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-voablock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Fhiuhsuhvwd&diff=1259672322</id> <title>User talk:Fhiuhsuhvwd</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Fhiuhsuhvwd&diff=1259672322"/> <updated>2024-11-26T12:51:38Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. <hr /> <div> == November 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|left|25px|alt=]] Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a message letting you know that one or more of your recent edits to [[:Anton Anton]] have been undone by an automated computer program called [[User:ClueBot NG|ClueBot NG]]. {{clear}} * ClueBot NG makes very few mistakes, but it does happen. If you believe the change you made was constructive, please [[User:ClueBot NG#Information About False Positives|read about it]], [{{User:ClueBot NG/Warnings/FPReport|4360399}} report it here], remove this message from your talk page, and then make the edit again. * If you need help, please see the [[Help:Introduction|Introduction to Wikipedia]], and if you can't find what you are looking for there, place {{Tld|Help me}} on [[Special:EditPage/User talk:Fhiuhsuhvwd|your talk page]] and someone will drop by to help. * The following is the log entry regarding this message: [[Anton Anton]] was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anton+Anton&amp;diff=1259670215&amp;oldid=1259670107 changed] by [[Special:Contributions/Fhiuhsuhvwd|Fhiuhsuhvwd]] [[User:Fhiuhsuhvwd|(u)]] [[User talk:Fhiuhsuhvwd|(t)]] ANN scored at 0.973211 on 2024-11-26T12:35:20+00:00 &lt;!-- MySQL ID: 4360399 --&gt; Thank you. &lt;!-- Template:uw-cluebotwarning1 --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --&gt; [[User:ClueBot NG|ClueBot NG]] ([[User talk:ClueBot NG|talk]]) 12:35, 26 November 2024 (UTC) &lt;div style=clear: both&gt;&lt;/div&gt;[[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=|link=]] Please do not [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|attack]] other editors, as you did with &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1259670262&amp;diff=1259670286 this edit]&lt;/span&gt; to [[:Anton Anton]]. Comment on ''content'', not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please [[Wikipedia:Staying cool when the editing gets hot|stay cool]] and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. &lt;!-- Template:Huggle/warn-attack-2 --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-npa2 --&gt;[[User:Langusto|Langusto]] ([[User talk:Langusto|talk]]) 12:35, 26 November 2024 (UTC) &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;You have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]], as you did at [[:Anton_Anton]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:51, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:HJ_Mitchell&diff=1259669716</id> <title>User talk:HJ Mitchell</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:HJ_Mitchell&diff=1259669716"/> <updated>2024-11-26T12:31:10Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: /* Bbb23 */ Reply <hr /> <div>{{Administrator topicon}}{{oversight topicon}} {{User:HJ Mitchell/header}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}} |maxarchivesize = 100K |counter = 137 |minthreadsleft = 1 |minthreadstoarchive = 1 |algo = old(150h) |archive = User talk:HJ Mitchell/Archive %(counter)d }}{{bots|deny=SineBot}} &lt;!-- ******New messages go AT THE BOTTOM. Please don't edit above this line. Thank you.****** --&gt; {{-}} == Nominations now open for the WikiProject Military history newcomer of the year and military historian of the year == Nominations now open for the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military History|WikiProject Military History]] [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Awards/MHNOTY|newcomer of the year]] and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Awards/MHOTY|military historian of the year]] awards for 2024! The the top editors will be awarded the coveted Gold Wiki. Nominations are open [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Nominations for military history newcomer of the year for 2024 are open!|here]] and [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Nominations for military historian of the year for 2024 are open!|here]] respectively. The nomination period closes at 23:59 on 30 November 2024 when voting begins. On behalf of the coordinators, wishing you the very best for the festive season and the new year. MediaWiki message delivery via [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 04:20, 16 November 2024 (UTC) &lt;!-- Message sent by User:Hawkeye7@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Members/Active&amp;oldid=1257656862 --&gt; :i would like to vote for others as the clerk [[User:Amogelang22|Amogelang22]] ([[User talk:Amogelang22|talk]]) 18:22, 20 November 2024 (UTC) == ip vandal == Hello, i assume you struck two BLP violation edits that [[Special:Contributions/69.11.41.241|69.11.41.241]] made. There is a third edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Strawman_theory&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1258446796] that is basically the same as the two struck ones—[[user:blindlynx|blindlynx]] 23:10, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Blindlynx|Blindlynx]] thanks, that one's gone as well now. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:32, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you!—[[user:blindlynx|blindlynx]] 01:53, 20 November 2024 (UTC) == Teahouse question about WP:PERM == Hi HJ Mitchell. I came across [[:WP:THQ#Question on why this happened]] at the Teahouse and for some reason the OP [[:Special:diff/PEPSI697/1258529758|restored their request]] even though it had been [[:Special:diff/MusikBot/1258411494|archived by a bot]] earlier that same day. The bot has already [[:Special:diff/MusikBot/1258530116|tagged it again]]. It seems a bit odd that the OP would re-add a request that had already been [[:Special:diff/Elli/1248708246|declined]] and [[:Special:diff/MusikBot/1249269491|archived]] almost a month and a half ago. Anyway, since you're active on that noticeboard, perhaps you could try to help the OP at the Teahouse and explain what happened (if you yourself understand what happened). It seems like the OP's re-adding of the request was just a misunderstanding on their part, but I'm not too familiar with how the PERM stuff works. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 11:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] I'm not really sure what happened there to be honest. {{ping|Ahecht}} made the edit. It ''looks'' like they edited an old version of the page or possibly edit-conflicted with the archiving bot. I'm certain there was no malicious intent. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:52, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] I replied over at Teahouse, but I'm as confused as you are as to what I did. I must've somehow gotten on an old revision of the page and edited it, but no idea how I got there without realizing it. &lt;span class=&quot;nowrap&quot;&gt;--[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:middle;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center&quot;&gt;TALK&lt;br /&gt;PAGE&lt;/b&gt;]])&lt;/span&gt; 14:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{ping|Ahecht}} No worries from me. I'm sure whatever happened didn't happen out of malice towards the OP or anyone else and was just mistake. I'm not sure why the OP felt they couldn't ask you directly about but that's probably something you could ask the OP about if you really want to know. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 21:08, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::@HJ Mitchell. Thanks for helping to sort this out. I've been editing for a long time and never had much of a need for these kinds of rights; so, I don't really understand all of the details of how they work. Since you did grant the TH OP's request, I defer to your judgment; however, the fact that they felt unable to discuss this with Ahecht (apparently not due to anything Ahecht has done) is kind of a red flag to me. Someone requesting one of these &quot;advanced&quot; permissions should be willing/confident enough to discuss things with others. The &quot;notice&quot; at the top of the OP's user talk page seems benign perhaps but it could also be a concern. This user seems to be doing lots of good things in patrolling for vandalism/non-constructive edits, and is placing lots of warnings on the user talk pages of others. It's great when someone decides to do that, but it also invariably can lead to confrontational and contentious discussions. Someone stating they &quot;can be very sensitive to certain things posted&quot; on their user talk page is one thing, but for the same person to also post they &quot;don't feel very comfortable&quot; discussing things on another user's talk page, even when they know that person to be an admin, at a place like the Teahouse could mean they might've chosen the wrong areas to try to help out in. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 21:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] Meh, pending-changes reviewer is probably the one you (one) can do the least harm with and the one least likely to get you into confrontational situations. You just review pending edits on pending-protected articles and accept them if they're not vandalism. We give it out pretty liberally. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Understand and thanks for clarifying. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 00:02, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == That's like three in a row == Normally I just thank when I go to block and see someone is already blocked, but there's been a few in a row now and that deserves a real message. Thanks! [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 12:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == A barnstar for you! == {| style=&quot;border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;&quot; |rowspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;vertical-align:middle;&quot; | [[File:Admin Barnstar.png|100px]] |rowspan=&quot;2&quot; | |style=&quot;font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;&quot; | '''The Admin's Barnstar''' |- |style=&quot;vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;&quot; | For taking care of the vandalism [[User talk:Skibidisigma271|here]]. Nice job! Though I suppose [[User:Pickersgill-Cunliffe]] deserves this too... 😉 [[User:JeffSpaceman|JeffSpaceman]] ([[User talk:JeffSpaceman|talk]]) 14:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC) |} == HJ Mitchell's Long-Lost Cousin == Plz tell your cuz I said hi. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 00:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :Ha! I wonder if that's related to the next entry in the cu log, the one with the interesting username. Did you find anything interesting? I'm on mobile and I hate CU'ing from a phone. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{talk page watcher}} Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. I'm getting this quote from [[Curly Howard]]. I won't lie, it was absolutely hilarious to see that name appear. Like really, I can't stop laughing. [[User:NoobThreePointOh|NoobThreePointOh]] ([[User talk:NoobThreePointOh|talk]]) 00:58, 22 November 2024 (UTC) == IP socks == Hi, it is regarding unsourced edits by possible IP-socks of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/106.203.140.36 this IP] that you blocked yesterday. They have been making similar edits like the blocked one, including the change of census figures [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Diphu&amp;diff=1258927717&amp;oldid=1258923882] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Diphu&amp;diff=1258931502&amp;oldid=1258928683] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Diphu&amp;diff=1259148646&amp;oldid=1259140298]. I'd like to request page protection [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Diphu&amp;action=history]. Thanks. - [[User:Fylindfotberserk|Fylindfotberserk]] ([[User talk:Fylindfotberserk|talk]]) 17:22, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tps}} I put a month of semiprotection on [[Diphu]]. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 17:49, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == A kitten for you! == [[File:Cute grey kitten.jpg|left|150px]] Your passion for history and learning is inspiring! [[User:LukeEverhardt|LukeEverhardt]] ([[User talk:LukeEverhardt|talk]]) 20:56, 24 November 2024 (UTC) &lt;br style=&quot;clear: both;&quot;/&gt; == [[Bbb23]] == Could you template as r from acronym or similar &lt;span style=&quot;color: #1a237e; background-color: #fff176; font-weight: bold;&quot;&gt;[[User:JayCubby|JayCubby]]&lt;/span&gt; &lt;span style=&quot;color: #fff176; background-color: #1a237e; font-weight: bold;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:JayCubby|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:JayCubby|JayCubby]] I'm not convinced that's useful or necessary, but done. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:31, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == A barnstar for you! == {| style=&quot;background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;&quot; |rowspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;&quot; | [[File:Barnstar of Reversion Hires.png|100px]] |style=&quot;font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;&quot; | '''The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar''' |- |style=&quot;vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;&quot; | I have seen you have been reverting vandalism very well. I reward you with this barnstar. Well done. [[User:OneTrueKingLives|OneTrueKingLives]] ([[User talk:OneTrueKingLives|talk]]) 09:31, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |}</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bbb23&diff=1259669562</id> <title>Bbb23</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bbb23&diff=1259669562"/> <updated>2024-11-26T12:30:01Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: per request on my talk page <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[Big Brother Brasil 23]] {{R from abbreviation}} {{pp|small=yes}}</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:149.62.101.124&diff=1259667609</id> <title>User talk:149.62.101.124</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:149.62.101.124&diff=1259667609"/> <updated>2024-11-26T12:13:11Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. <hr /> <div> == November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HTTPS&diff=1259667580</id> <title>HTTPS</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HTTPS&diff=1259667580"/> <updated>2024-11-26T12:12:53Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: Reverted edit by 200.53.241.83 (talk) to last version by Favonian <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Extension of the HTTP communications protocol to support TLS encryption}} {{pp-pc}} {{Use dmy dates|date=November 2021}} {{IPstack}} {{HTTP}} '''Hypertext Transfer Protocol Secure''' ('''HTTPS''') is an extension of the [[Hypertext Transfer Protocol]] (HTTP). It uses [[encryption]] for [[Secure communications|secure communication]] over a [[computer network]], and is widely used on the [[Internet]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/6073543?hl=en |publisher=Google Inc. |work=Google Support |access-date=20 October 2018 |title=Secure your site with HTTPS |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150301023624/https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/6073543?hl=en |archive-date=1 March 2015 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.instantssl.com/ssl-certificate-products/https.html |publisher=[[Comodo Group|Comodo CA Limited]] |quote=Hyper Text Transfer Protocol Secure (HTTPS) is the secure version of HTTP [...] |access-date=20 October 2018 |title=What is HTTPS? |url-status=unfit |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150212105201/https://www.instantssl.com/ssl-certificate-products/https.html |archive-date=12 February 2015 }}&lt;/ref&gt; In HTTPS, the [[communication protocol]] is encrypted using [[Transport Layer Security]] (TLS) or, formerly, Secure Sockets Layer (SSL). The protocol is therefore also referred to as '''HTTP over TLS''',&lt;ref&gt;{{cite IETF |title=HTTP Semantics |rfc=9110 |sectionname=https URI Scheme |section=4.2.2 |date=June 2022 |publisher=[[Internet Engineering Task Force|IETF]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; or '''HTTP over SSL'''. The principal motivations for HTTPS are [[authentication]] of the accessed [[website]] and protection of the [[Information privacy|privacy]] and [[Data integrity|integrity]] of the exchanged data while it is in transit. It protects against [[man-in-the-middle attack]]s, and the bidirectional [[Block cipher mode of operation|block cipher encryption]] of communications between a client and server protects the communications against [[eavesdropping]] and [[Tamper-evident#Tampering|tampering]].&lt;ref name=httpse&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere/faq |title=HTTPS Everywhere FAQ |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181114011956/https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere/faq/ |archive-date=14 November 2018 |url-status=live |date=8 November 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/ce-httpsdefault/all/all|title=Usage Statistics of Default protocol https for Websites, July 2019|website=w3techs.com|access-date=20 July 2019|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190801134536/https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/ce-httpsdefault/all/all|archive-date=1 August 2019|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; The authentication aspect of HTTPS requires a trusted third party to sign server-side [[Public key certificate|digital certificates]]. This was historically an expensive operation, which meant fully authenticated HTTPS connections were usually found only on secured payment transaction services and other secured corporate information systems on the [[World Wide Web]]. In 2016, a campaign by the [[Electronic Frontier Foundation]] with the support of [[web browser]] developers led to the protocol becoming more prevalent.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Encrypting the Web |url=https://www.eff.org/encrypt-the-web |website=Electronic Frontier Foundation |access-date=19 November 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20191118094200/https://www.eff.org/encrypt-the-web |archive-date=18 November 2019 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; HTTPS is now used more often by web users than the original, non-secure HTTP, primarily to protect page authenticity on all types of websites, secure accounts, and keep user communications, identity, and web browsing private. ==Overview== {{Further|topic=|Transport Layer Security|||category=}} [[File:Internet2.jpg|thumb|[[URL]] beginning with the HTTPS scheme and the [[World Wide Web|WWW]] domain name label]] The [[Uniform Resource Identifier]] (URI) scheme ''HTTPS'' has identical usage syntax to the HTTP scheme. However, HTTPS signals the browser to use an added encryption layer of SSL/TLS to protect the traffic. SSL/TLS is especially suited for HTTP, since it can provide some protection even if only one side of the communication is [[authentication|authenticated]]. This is the case with HTTP transactions over the Internet, where typically only the [[Web server|server]] is authenticated (by the client examining the server's [[public key certificate|certificate]]). HTTPS creates a secure channel over an insecure network. This ensures reasonable protection from [[eavesdropping|eavesdroppers]] and [[man-in-the-middle attack]]s, provided that adequate [[cipher suite]]s are used and that the server certificate is verified and trusted. Because HTTPS piggybacks HTTP entirely on top of TLS, the entirety of the underlying HTTP protocol can be encrypted. This includes the request's [[URL]], query parameters, headers, and cookies (which often contain identifying information about the user). However, because website addresses and [[Port (computer networking)|port]] numbers are necessarily part of the underlying [[TCP/IP]] protocols, HTTPS cannot protect their disclosure. In practice this means that even on a correctly configured web server, eavesdroppers can infer the IP address and port number of the web server, and sometimes even the domain name (e.g. www.example.org, but not the rest of the URL) that a user is communicating with, along with the amount of data transferred and the duration of the communication, though not the content of the communication.&lt;ref name=httpse/&gt; Web browsers know how to trust HTTPS websites based on [[Certificate authority|certificate authorities]] that come pre-installed in their software. Certificate authorities are in this way being trusted by web browser creators to provide valid certificates. Therefore, a user should trust an HTTPS connection to a website [[if and only if]] all of the following are true: * The user trusts that their device, hosting the browser and the method to get the browser itself, is not compromised (i.e. there is no [[supply chain attack]]). * The user trusts that the browser software correctly implements HTTPS with correctly pre-installed certificate authorities. * The user trusts the certificate authority to vouch only for legitimate websites (i.e. the certificate authority is not compromised and there is no mis-issuance of certificates). * The website provides a valid certificate, which means it was signed by a trusted authority. * The certificate correctly identifies the website (e.g., when the browser visits &quot;https://example.com&quot;, the received certificate is properly for &quot;example.com&quot; and not some other entity). * The user trusts that the protocol's encryption layer (SSL/TLS) is sufficiently secure against eavesdroppers. HTTPS is especially important over insecure networks and networks that may be subject to tampering. Insecure networks, such as public [[Wi-Fi]] access points, allow anyone on the same local network to [[packet analyzer|packet-sniff]] and discover sensitive information not protected by HTTPS. Additionally, some free-to-use and paid [[wireless LAN|WLAN]] networks have been observed tampering with webpages by engaging in [[packet injection]] in order to serve their own ads on other websites. This practice can be exploited maliciously in many ways, such as by injecting [[malware]] onto webpages and stealing users' private information.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Hotel Wifi JavaScript Injection |url=https://justinsomnia.org/2012/04/hotel-wifi-javascript-injection/ |date=3 April 2012 |work=JustInsomnia |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181118154608/https://justinsomnia.org/2012/04/hotel-wifi-javascript-injection/ |archive-date=18 November 2018 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; HTTPS is also important for connections over the [[Tor (network)|Tor network]], as malicious Tor nodes could otherwise damage or alter the contents passing through them in an insecure fashion and inject malware into the connection. This is one reason why the [[Electronic Frontier Foundation]] and [[the Tor Project]] started the development of [[HTTPS Everywhere]],&lt;ref name=httpse/&gt; which is included in Tor Browser.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser.html.en |title=What is Tor Browser? |author=The Tor Project, Inc. |work=TorProject.org |access-date=30 May 2012 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20130717222709/https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser.html.en |archive-date=17 July 2013 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; As more information is revealed about global [[mass surveillance]] and criminals stealing personal information, the use of HTTPS security on all websites is becoming increasingly important regardless of the type of Internet connection being used.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://open.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/13/embracing-https/ |title=Embracing HTTPS |work=The New York Times |date=13 November 2014 |access-date=20 October 2018 |last1=Konigsburg |first1=Eitan |last2=Pant |first2=Rajiv |last3=Kvochko |first3=Elena |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190108190000/https://open.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/13/embracing-https/ |archive-date=8 January 2019 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://freedom.press/news-advocacy/fifteen-months-after-the-nsa-revelations-why-arenat-more-news-organizations-using-https/ |title=Fifteen Months After the NSA Revelations, Why Aren't More News Organizations Using HTTPS? |publisher=Freedom of the Press Foundation |date=12 September 2014 |access-date=20 October 2018 |last=Gallagher |first=Kevin |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180810204919/https://freedom.press/news-advocacy/fifteen-months-after-the-nsa-revelations-why-arenat-more-news-organizations-using-https/ |archive-date=10 August 2018 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Even though [[metadata]] about individual pages that a user visits might not be considered sensitive, when aggregated it can reveal a lot about the user and compromise the user's privacy.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://webmasters.googleblog.com/2014/08/https-as-ranking-signal.html |title=HTTPS as a ranking signal |date=6 August 2014 |publisher=Google Inc. |quote=You can make your site secure with HTTPS (Hypertext Transfer Protocol Secure) [...] |work=Google Webmaster Central Blog |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181017052432/https://webmasters.googleblog.com/2014/08/https-as-ranking-signal.html |archive-date=17 October 2018 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBhZ6S0PFCY |title=Google I/O 2014 - HTTPS Everywhere |publisher=Google Developers |date=26 June 2014 |access-date=20 October 2018 |last1=Grigorik |first1=Ilya |last2=Far |first2=Pierre |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181120144918/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBhZ6S0PFCY |archive-date=20 November 2018 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=deployhttpscorrectly/&gt; Deploying HTTPS also allows the use of [[HTTP/2]] and [[HTTP/3]] (and their predecessors [[SPDY]] and [[QUIC]]), which are new HTTP versions designed to reduce page load times, size, and latency. It is recommended to use [[HTTP Strict Transport Security]] (HSTS) with HTTPS to protect users from man-in-the-middle attacks, especially [[Moxie Marlinspike#SSL stripping|SSL stripping]].&lt;ref name=deployhttpscorrectly&gt;{{cite web |title=How to Deploy HTTPS Correctly |url=https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere/deploying-https |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181010233702/https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere/deploying-https |archive-date=10 October 2018 |url-status=live |date=15 November 2010 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Strict-Transport-Security |title=HTTP Strict Transport Security |work=Mozilla Developer Network |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181019171534/https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Strict-Transport-Security |archive-date=19 October 2018 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; HTTPS should not be confused with the seldom-used [[Secure Hypertext Transfer Protocol|Secure HTTP]] (S-HTTP) specified in RFC 2660. ===Usage in websites=== {{As of|2018|04}}, 33.2%&lt;!-- percentages not show; calculated from 331889 sites stated--&gt; of Alexa top 1,000,000 websites use HTTPS as default&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://statoperator.com/research/https-usage-statistics-on-top-websites/ |title=HTTPS usage statistics on top 1M websites |website=StatOperator.com |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190209055130/https://statoperator.com/research/https-usage-statistics-on-top-websites/ |archive-date=9 February 2019 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; and 70%&lt;!-- 78.68% for the US only--&gt; of page loads (measured by Firefox Telemetry) use HTTPS.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://letsencrypt.org/stats/ |title=Let's Encrypt Stats |website=LetsEncrypt.org |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181019221028/https://letsencrypt.org/stats/ |archive-date=19 October 2018 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; {{As of|2022|12}}, 58.4% of the Internet's 135,422 most popular websites have a secure implementation of HTTPS,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.ssllabs.com/ssl-pulse/ |title=Qualys SSL Labs - SSL Pulse |website=www.ssllabs.com |date=4 December 2022 |access-date=7 December 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221207004823/https://www.ssllabs.com/ssl-pulse/ |archive-date=7 December 2022 |url-status=live }}.&lt;/ref&gt; However, despite TLS 1.3's release in 2018, adoption has been slow, with many still remaining on the older TLS 1.2 protocol.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2020-04-06 |title=TLS 1.3: Slow adoption of stronger web encryption is empowering the bad guys |url=https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2020/04/06/tls-1-3-adoption/ |access-date=2022-05-23 |website=Help Net Security |language=en-US |archive-date=24 May 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220524002257/https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2020/04/06/tls-1-3-adoption/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Browser integration=== Most [[Web browser|browsers]] display a warning if they receive an invalid certificate. Older browsers, when connecting to a site with an invalid certificate, would present the user with a [[dialog box]] asking whether they wanted to continue. Newer browsers display a warning across the entire window. Newer browsers also prominently display the site's security information in the [[address bar]]. [[Extended validation certificate]]s show the legal entity on the certificate information. Most browsers also display a warning to the user when visiting a site that contains a mixture of encrypted and unencrypted content. Additionally, many [[Content-control software|web filters]] return a security warning when visiting prohibited websites. {{gallery |title=Comparison between different kinds of [[Transport Layer Security|SSL/TLS]] certificates&lt;br&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Using [[Firefox]] as an example)&lt;/small&gt; |height=170 |width=300 |align=center |File:Extended Validation on Firefox 89 screenshot.png|Many web browsers, including Firefox (shown here), use the [[address bar]] to tell the user that their connection is secure, an [[Extended Validation Certificate]] should identify the legal entity for the certificate. |File:HTTPS on Firefox 89 screenshot.png|When accessing a site only with a common certificate, on the address bar of [[Firefox]] and other [[Web browser|browser]]s, a &quot;lock&quot; sign appears. |File:Self-signed certificate warning on Firefox 89 screenshot.png|Most web browsers alert the user when visiting sites that have invalid security certificates. }} The [[Electronic Frontier Foundation]], opining that &quot;In an ideal world, every web request could be defaulted to HTTPS&quot;, has provided an add-on called HTTPS Everywhere for [[Mozilla Firefox]], [[Google Chrome]], [[Chromium (web browser)|Chromium]], and [[Android (operating system)|Android]], which enables HTTPS by default for hundreds of frequently used websites.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |first=Peter |last=Eckersley |url=https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/06/encrypt-web-https-everywhere-firefox-extension |title=Encrypt the Web with the HTTPS Everywhere Firefox Extension |work=EFF blog |date=17 June 2010 |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181125102636/https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/06/encrypt-web-https-everywhere-firefox-extension |archive-date=25 November 2018 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere |title=HTTPS Everywhere. |work=EFF projects |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110605022218/https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere |archive-date=5 June 2011 |url-status=live |date=7 October 2011 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Forcing a web browser to load only HTTPS content has been supported in Firefox starting in version 83.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=HTTPS-Only Mode in Firefox|url=https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/https-only-prefs|url-status=live|access-date=12 November 2021|archive-date=12 November 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211112222245/https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/https-only-prefs}}&lt;/ref&gt; Starting in version 94, Google Chrome is able to &quot;always use secure connections&quot; if toggled in the browser's settings.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Manage Chrome safety and security - Android - Google Chrome Help |url=https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/10468685?hl=en&amp;co=GENIE.Platform=Android |access-date=2022-03-07 |website=support.google.com |archive-date=7 March 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220307190622/https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/10468685?hl=en&amp;co=GENIE.Platform=Android |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2021-07-19 |title=Hands on Chrome's HTTPS-First Mode |url=https://techdows.com/2021/07/hands-on-chromes-https-first-mode.html |access-date=2022-03-07 |website=Techdows |language=en-US |archive-date=7 March 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220307190617/https://techdows.com/2021/07/hands-on-chromes-https-first-mode.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Security== {{Main|Transport Layer Security#Security}} The security of HTTPS is that of the underlying TLS, which typically uses long-term [[Public-key cryptography|public]] and private keys to generate a short-term [[session key]], which is then used to encrypt the data flow between the client and the server. [[X.509]] certificates are used to authenticate the server (and sometimes the client as well). As a consequence, [[certificate authority|certificate authorities]] and [[public key certificate]]s are necessary to verify the relation between the certificate and its owner, as well as to generate, sign, and administer the validity of certificates. While this can be more beneficial than verifying the identities via a [[web of trust]], the [[2013 mass surveillance disclosures]] drew attention to certificate authorities as a potential weak point allowing [[man-in-the-middle attack]]s.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine |url=https://www.wired.com/2010/03/packet-forensics/ |title=Law Enforcement Appliance Subverts SSL |magazine=Wired |date=24 March 2010 |first=Ryan |last=Singel |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190117142906/https://www.wired.com/2010/03/packet-forensics/ |archive-date=17 January 2019 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/03/researchers-reveal-likelihood-governments-fake-ssl |title=New Research Suggests That Governments May Fake SSL Certificates |first=Seth |last=Schoen |work=EFF |date=24 March 2010 |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160104234608/https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/03/researchers-reveal-likelihood-governments-fake-ssl |archive-date=4 January 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; An important property in this context is [[forward secrecy]], which ensures that encrypted communications recorded in the past cannot be retrieved and decrypted should long-term secret keys or passwords be compromised in the future. Not all web servers provide forward secrecy.&lt;ref name=ecdhe&gt;{{cite web |url=https://news.netcraft.com/archives/2013/06/25/ssl-intercepted-today-decrypted-tomorrow.html |title=SSL: Intercepted today, decrypted tomorrow |work=Netcraft |date=25 June 2013 |first=Robert |last=Duncan |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181006021916/https://news.netcraft.com/archives/2013/06/25/ssl-intercepted-today-decrypted-tomorrow.html |archive-date=6 October 2018 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Update inline|reason=Does this still hold in 2015?|date=February 2015}} For HTTPS to be effective, a site must be completely hosted over HTTPS. If some of the site's contents are loaded over HTTP (scripts or images, for example), or if only a certain page that contains sensitive information, such as a log-in page, is loaded over HTTPS while the rest of the site is loaded over plain HTTP, the user will be vulnerable to attacks and surveillance. Additionally, [[HTTP cookie|cookies]] on a site served through HTTPS must have the [[secure cookie|secure attribute]] enabled. On a site that has sensitive information on it, the user and the session will get exposed every time that site is accessed with HTTP instead of HTTPS.&lt;ref name=deployhttpscorrectly/&gt; ==Technical== ===Difference from HTTP=== HTTPS [[URL]]s begin with &quot;https://&quot; and use [[List of TCP and UDP port numbers|port]] 443 by default, whereas, [[HTTP]] URLs begin with &quot;http://&quot; and use port 80 by default. HTTP is not encrypted and thus is vulnerable to [[man-in-the-middle]] and [[eavesdropping attack]]s, which can let attackers gain access to website accounts and sensitive information, and modify webpages to inject [[malware]] or advertisements. HTTPS is designed to withstand such attacks and is considered secure against them (with the exception of HTTPS implementations that use deprecated versions of SSL). ===Network layers=== HTTP operates at the highest layer of the [[TCP/IP model]]—the [[application layer]]; as does the [[Transport Layer Security|TLS]] security protocol (operating as a lower sublayer of the same layer), which encrypts an HTTP message prior to transmission and decrypts a message upon arrival. Strictly speaking, HTTPS is not a separate protocol, but refers to the use of ordinary [[HTTP]] over an [[encryption|encrypted]] SSL/TLS connection. HTTPS encrypts all message contents, including the HTTP headers and the request/response data. With the exception of the possible [[Chosen-ciphertext attack|CCA]] cryptographic attack described in the [[#Limitations|limitations]] section below, an attacker should at most be able to discover that a connection is taking place between two parties, along with their domain names and IP addresses. ===Server setup=== To prepare a web server to accept HTTPS connections, the administrator must create a [[public key certificate]] for the web server. This certificate must be signed by a trusted [[certificate authority]] for the web browser to accept it without warning. The authority certifies that the certificate holder is the operator of the web server that presents it. Web browsers are generally distributed with a list of [[root certificate|signing certificates of major certificate authorities]] so that they can verify certificates signed by them. ====Acquiring certificates==== A number of commercial [[Certificate authority|certificate authorities]] exist, offering paid-for SSL/TLS certificates of a number of types, including [[Extended Validation Certificate]]s. [[Let's Encrypt]], launched in April 2016,&lt;ref name=&quot;softpedia-launch&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url=https://news.softpedia.com/news/let-s-encrypt-launched-today-currently-protects-3-8-million-domains-502857.shtml |title=Let's Encrypt Launched Today, Currently Protects 3.8 Million Domains |publisher=Softpedia News |first=Catalin |last=Cimpanu |date=12 April 2016 |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190209055129/https://news.softpedia.com/news/let-s-encrypt-launched-today-currently-protects-3-8-million-domains-502857.shtml |archive-date=9 February 2019 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; provides free and automated service that delivers basic SSL/TLS certificates to websites.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.eweek.com/security/let-s-encrypt-effort-aims-to-improve-internet-security |title=Let's Encrypt Effort Aims to Improve Internet Security |publisher=Quinstreet Enterprise |website=eWeek.com |date=18 November 2014 |access-date=20 October 2018 |last=Kerner |first=Sean Michael |archive-date=2 April 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230402154948/https://www.eweek.com/security/let-s-encrypt-effort-aims-to-improve-internet-security/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; According to the [[Electronic Frontier Foundation]], Let's Encrypt will make switching from HTTP to HTTPS &quot;as easy as issuing one command, or clicking one button.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/certificate-authority-encrypt-entire-web |title=Launching in 2015: A Certificate Authority to Encrypt the Entire Web |publisher=[[Electronic Frontier Foundation]] |date=18 November 2014 |access-date=20 October 2018 |last=Eckersley |first=Peter |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181118160126/https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/certificate-authority-encrypt-entire-web |archive-date=18 November 2018 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The majority of web hosts and cloud providers now leverage Let's Encrypt, providing free certificates to their customers. ====Use as access control==== The system can also be used for client [[authentication]] in order to limit access to a web server to authorized users. To do this, the site administrator typically creates a certificate for each user, which the user loads into their browser. Normally, the certificate contains the name and e-mail address of the authorized user and is automatically checked by the server on each connection to verify the user's identity, potentially without even requiring a password. ====In case of compromised secret (private) key==== An important property in this context is [[forward secrecy|perfect forward secrecy]] (PFS). Possessing one of the long-term asymmetric secret keys used to establish an HTTPS session should not make it easier to derive the short-term session key to then decrypt the conversation, even at a later time. [[Diffie–Hellman key exchange]] (DHE) and [[Elliptic-curve Diffie–Hellman]] key exchange (ECDHE) are in 2013 the only schemes known to have that property. In 2013, only 30% of Firefox, Opera, and Chromium Browser sessions used it, and nearly 0% of Apple's [[Safari (web browser)|Safari]] and [[Internet Explorer|Microsoft Internet Explorer]] sessions.&lt;ref name=ecdhe/&gt; TLS 1.3, published in August 2018, dropped support for ciphers without forward secrecy. {{As of|2019|02|df=US}}, 96.6% of web servers surveyed support some form of forward secrecy, and 52.1% will use forward secrecy with most browsers.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |author1=Qualys SSL Labs |title=SSL Pulse |url=https://www.ssllabs.com/ssl-pulse/ |access-date=25 February 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190215213454/https://www.ssllabs.com/ssl-pulse/ |archive-date=15 February 2019 |format=3 February 2019|author1-link=Qualys }}&lt;/ref&gt; {{As of|2023|07|df=US}}, 99.6% of web servers surveyed support some form of forward secrecy, and 75.2% will use forward secrecy with most browsers.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Qualys SSL Labs - SSL Pulse |url=https://www.ssllabs.com/ssl-pulse/ |access-date=2023-09-04 |website=www.ssllabs.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; =====Certificate revocation===== {{main|Certificate revocation}} A certificate may be revoked before it expires, for example because the secrecy of the private key has been compromised. Newer versions of popular browsers such as [[Firefox]],&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/ |title=Mozilla Firefox Privacy Policy |publisher=[[Mozilla Foundation]] |date=27 April 2009 |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181018063732/https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/ |archive-date=18 October 2018 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Opera (web browser)|Opera]],&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=https://news.softpedia.com/news/Opera-8-launched-on-FTP-1330.shtml |title=Opera 8 launched on FTP |publisher=[[Softpedia]] |date=19 April 2005 |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190209055128/https://news.softpedia.com/news/Opera-8-launched-on-FTP-1330.shtml |archive-date=9 February 2019 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; and [[Internet Explorer]] on [[Windows Vista]]&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Lawrence |first=Eric |date=31 January 2006 |url=https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/aa980989(v=msdn.10) |title=HTTPS Security Improvements in Internet Explorer 7 |website=[[Microsoft Docs]] |access-date=24 October 2021 |archive-date=24 October 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211024181937/https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/aa980989(v=msdn.10) |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; implement the [[Online Certificate Status Protocol]] (OCSP) to verify that this is not the case. The browser sends the certificate's serial number to the certificate authority or its delegate via OCSP (Online Certificate Status Protocol) and the authority responds, telling the browser whether the certificate is still valid or not.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2560 |title=Online Certificate Status Protocol – OCSP |publisher=[[Internet Engineering Task Force]] |date=20 June 1999 |last1=Myers |first1=Michael |last2=Ankney |first2=Rich |last3=Malpani |first3=Ambarish |last4=Galperin |first4=Slava |last5=Adams |first5=Carlisle |doi=10.17487/RFC2560 |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110825095059/http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2560 |archive-date=25 August 2011 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The CA may also issue a [[Certificate revocation list|CRL]] to tell people that these certificates are revoked. CRLs are no longer required by the CA/Browser forum,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://cabforum.org/baseline-requirements-documents/ |title=Baseline Requirements |date=4 September 2013 |publisher=CAB Forum |access-date=1 November 2021 |url-status=live |archive-date=20 October 2014 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20141020234802/https://cabforum.org/baseline-requirements-documents/ }}&lt;/ref&gt; nevertheless, they are still widely used by the CAs. Most revocation statuses on the Internet disappear soon after the expiration of the certificates.&lt;ref name=RS_1&gt;{{cite book| author1=Korzhitskii, N.| author2=Carlsson, N.| title=Passive and Active Measurement| chapter=Revocation Statuses on the Internet| series=Lecture Notes in Computer Science| date=30 March 2021| volume=12671| pages=175–191| doi=10.1007/978-3-030-72582-2_11| arxiv=2102.04288| isbn=978-3-030-72581-5}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Limitations=== SSL (Secure Sockets Layer) and TLS (Transport Layer Security) encryption can be configured in two modes: ''simple'' and ''mutual''. In simple mode, authentication is only performed by the server. The mutual version requires the user to install a personal [[client certificate]] in the web browser for user authentication.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6080885?hl=en |title=Manage client certificates on Chrome devices – Chrome for business and education Help |website=support.google.com |access-date=2018-10-20 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190209055127/https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6080885?hl=en |archive-date=2019-02-09 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In either case, the level of protection depends on the correctness of the [[implementation]] of the software and the [[cipher|cryptographic algorithms]] in use.{{fact|date=April 2024}} SSL/TLS does not prevent the indexing of the site by a [[web crawler]], and in some cases the [[Uniform resource identifier|URI]] of the encrypted resource can be inferred by knowing only the intercepted request/response size.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.exploit-db.com/docs/english/13026-the-pirate-bay-un-ssl.pdf |title=The Pirate Bay un-SSL |last=Pusep |first=Stanislaw |date=2008-07-31 |access-date=2018-10-20 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180620001518/https://www.exploit-db.com/docs/english/13026-the-pirate-bay-un-ssl.pdf |archive-date=2018-06-20 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; This allows an attacker to have access to the [[plaintext]] (the publicly available static content), and the [[ciphertext|encrypted text]] (the encrypted version of the static content), permitting a [[Chosen-ciphertext attack|cryptographic attack]].{{fact|date=April 2024}} Because [[Transport Layer Security|TLS]] operates at a protocol level below that of HTTP and has no knowledge of the higher-level protocols, TLS servers can only strictly present one certificate for a particular address and port combination.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/ssl/ssl_faq.html#vhosts |title=SSL/TLS Strong Encryption: FAQ |work=apache.org |access-date=2018-10-20 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181019105423/http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/ssl/ssl_faq.html#vhosts |archive-date=2018-10-19 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In the past, this meant that it was not feasible to use [[Virtual hosting#Name-based|name-based virtual hosting]] with HTTPS. A solution called [[Server Name Indication]] (SNI) exists, which sends the hostname to the server before encrypting the connection, although many old browsers do not support this extension. Support for SNI is available since [[Firefox]] 2, [[Opera (web browser)|Opera]] 8, [[Safari (web browser)|Apple Safari]] 2.1, [[Google Chrome]] 6, and [[Internet Explorer 7]] on [[Windows Vista]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/ie/2005/10/22/upcoming-https-improvements-in-internet-explorer-7-beta-2/ |title=Upcoming HTTPS Improvements in Internet Explorer 7 Beta 2 |last=Lawrence |first=Eric |publisher=[[Microsoft]] |date=2005-10-22 |access-date=2018-10-20 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180920113838/https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/ie/2005/10/22/upcoming-https-improvements-in-internet-explorer-7-beta-2/ |archive-date=2018-09-20 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://blog.ebrahim.org/2006/02/21/server-name-indication-sni/ |title=Server Name Indication (SNI) |work=inside aebrahim's head |date=2006-02-21 |access-date=2018-10-20 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180810173628/https://blog.ebrahim.org/2006/02/21/server-name-indication-sni/ |archive-date=10 August 2018 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116169 |title=Browser support for TLS server name indication |access-date=2018-10-20 |last=Pierre |first=Julien |date=2001-12-19 |work=Bugzilla |publisher=Mozilla Foundation |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181008070112/https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116169 |archive-date=2018-10-08 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; A sophisticated type of [[man-in-the-middle attack]] called SSL stripping was presented at the 2009 [[Black Hat Briefings|Blackhat Conference]]. This type of attack defeats the security provided by HTTPS by changing the {{code|https:}} link into an {{code|http:}} link, taking advantage of the fact that few Internet users actually type &quot;https&quot; into their browser interface: they get to a secure site by clicking on a link, and thus are fooled into thinking that they are using HTTPS when in fact they are using HTTP. The attacker then communicates in clear with the client.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://moxie.org/software/sslstrip/index.html |title=sslstrip 0.9 |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180620042059/https://moxie.org/software/sslstrip/index.html |archive-date=20 June 2018 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; This prompted the development of a countermeasure in HTTP called [[HTTP Strict Transport Security]].{{fact|date=April 2024}} HTTPS has been shown to be vulnerable to a range of [[traffic analysis]] attacks. Traffic analysis attacks are a type of [[side-channel attack]] that relies on variations in the timing and size of traffic in order to infer properties about the encrypted traffic itself. Traffic analysis is possible because SSL/TLS encryption changes the contents of traffic, but has minimal impact on the size and timing of traffic. In May 2010, a research paper by researchers from [[Microsoft Research]] and [[Indiana University Bloomington|Indiana University]] discovered that detailed sensitive user data can be inferred from side channels such as packet sizes. The researchers found that, despite HTTPS protection in several high-profile, top-of-the-line web applications in healthcare, taxation, investment, and web search, an eavesdropper could infer the illnesses/medications/surgeries of the user, his/her family income, and investment secrets.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |url=https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/side-channel-leaks-in-web-applications-a-reality-today-a-challenge-tomorrow/ |title=Side-Channel Leaks in Web Applications: a Reality Today, a Challenge Tomorrow |journal=Microsoft Research |publisher=[[Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers|IEEE]] Symposium on Security &amp; Privacy 2010 |date=2010-05-20 |author1=Shuo Chen |author2=Rui Wang |author3=XiaoFeng Wang |author4=Kehuan Zhang |access-date=2018-10-20 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180722120329/https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/side-channel-leaks-in-web-applications-a-reality-today-a-challenge-tomorrow/ |archive-date=22 July 2018 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The fact that most modern websites, including Google, Yahoo!, and Amazon, use HTTPS causes problems for many users trying to access public Wi-Fi hot spots, because a [[captive portal]] Wi-Fi hot spot login page fails to load if the user tries to open an HTTPS resource.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |first=Matthew |last=Guaay |url=https://zapier.com/blog/open-wifi-login-page/ |title=How to Force a Public Wi-Fi Network Login Page to Open |date=2017-09-21 |access-date=2018-10-20 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180810143254/https://zapier.com/blog/open-wifi-login-page/ |archive-date=2018-08-10 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Several websites, such as NeverSSL,&lt;ref name=&quot;neverssl&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url=http://neverssl.com |title=NeverSSL }}&lt;/ref&gt; guarantee that they will always remain accessible by HTTP.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://neverssl.com/ |title=NeverSSL |access-date=2018-10-20 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180901224536/http://neverssl.com/ |archive-date=2018-09-01 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==History== {{Main|Transport Layer Security#History and development}} [[Netscape Communications]] created HTTPS in 1994 for its [[Netscape Navigator]] web browser.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=FLvsis4_QhEC&amp;pg=PA344 |title=Embedded Software: The Works |last=Walls |first=Colin |year=2005 |pages=344 |isbn=0-7506-7954-9 |publisher=Newnes |access-date=20 October 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190209055124/https://books.google.com/books?id=FLvsis4_QhEC&amp;pg=PA344 |archive-date=9 February 2019 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Originally, HTTPS was used with the [[Secure Sockets Layer|SSL]] protocol. As SSL evolved into [[Transport Layer Security]] (TLS), HTTPS was formally specified by RFC 2818 in May 2000. Google announced in February 2018 that its Chrome browser would mark HTTP sites as &quot;Not Secure&quot; after July 2018.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://blog.chromium.org/2018/02/a-secure-web-is-here-to-stay.html|title=A secure web is here to stay|website=Chromium Blog|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190424215132/https://blog.chromium.org/2018/02/a-secure-web-is-here-to-stay.html|archive-date=24 April 2019|access-date=22 April 2019|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; This move was to encourage website owners to implement HTTPS, as an effort to make the [[World Wide Web]] more secure. ==See also== * [[Transport Layer Security]] * [[Bullrun (decryption program)]]{{snd}} a secret anti-encryption program run by the US [[National Security Agency]] * [[Computer security]] * [[HTTP Strict Transport Security|HSTS]] * [[Opportunistic encryption]] * [[Stunnel]] ==References== {{reflist}} ==External links== {{commons category}} *{{IETF RFC|8446|link=no}}: The Transport Layer Security (TLS) Protocol Version 1.3 {{Web interfaces}} {{Web browsers|fsp}} {{URI scheme}} {{SSL/TLS}} {{Internet censorship circumvention technologies}} [[Category:Hypertext Transfer Protocol]] [[Category:Cryptographic protocols]] [[Category:Secure communication]] [[Category:URI schemes]] [[Category:Transport Layer Security]] [[Category:Internet properties established in 1994]]</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:188.39.249.210&diff=1259665973</id> <title>User talk:188.39.249.210</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:188.39.249.210&diff=1259665973"/> <updated>2024-11-26T11:57:34Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing to prevent further vandalism. <hr /> <div>== November 2022 == [[Image:Information.svg|25px|alt=|link=]] Hello, I'm [[User:Materialscientist|Materialscientist]]. I noticed that you made a change to an article, [[:Syston]], but you didn't provide a source. I’ve removed it for now, but if you’d like to [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|include a citation]] to a reliable source and re-add it, please do so! If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on [[User talk:Materialscientist|my talk page]]. Thanks. &lt;!-- Template:Huggle/warn-unsor-1 --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-unsourced1 --&gt; [[User:Materialscientist|Materialscientist]] ([[User talk:Materialscientist|talk]]) 12:26, 18 November 2022 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; &lt;div style=&quot;clear: both&quot;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;[[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did with &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Syston&amp;diff=1122600071 this edit]&lt;/span&gt; to [[:Syston]]. Your edits appear to be [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]] and have been [[Help:Reverting|reverted]] or removed. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. Repeated vandalism can result in the [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|loss of editing privileges]]. Thank you. &lt;!-- Template:Huggle/warn-2 --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism2 --&gt;[[User:Materialscientist|Materialscientist]] ([[User talk:Materialscientist|talk]]) 12:28, 18 November 2022 (UTC) == Notification: Blocked == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt; [[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=|link=]] You have been '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of 31 hours for [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|Vandalism]]. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to [[WP:Five pillars|make useful contributions]]. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may [[WP:Appealing a block|request an unblock]] by first reading the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then adding &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{&lt;/nowiki&gt;unblock|''your reason here''}}&lt;/code&gt; below.&lt;!-- Template:uw-huggleblock1 --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-block --&gt; [[User:Materialscientist|Materialscientist]] ([[User talk:Materialscientist|talk]]) 12:29, 18 November 2022 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt; == November 2022 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''72 hours''' for making (or attempting to make) [[WP:Disruptive editing|disruptive edits]] that triggered the [[Wikipedia:Edit filter|edit filter]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;'''&lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User:Acroterion|&lt;span style=&quot;color: black;&quot;&gt;Acroterion&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Acroterion|&lt;span style=&quot;color: gray;&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''' 14:55, 25 November 2022 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-efblock --&gt; == October 2023 == [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:NoobThreePointOh|NoobThreePointOh]]. I wanted to let you know that one or more of [[Special:Contributions/188.39.249.210|your recent contributions]]&amp;#32;to [[:Trench]] have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the [[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]] or the [[Wikipedia:Help desk|Help desk]]. Thanks.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --&gt; [[User:NoobThreePointOh|NoobThreePointOh]] ([[User talk:NoobThreePointOh|talk]]) 13:12, 3 October 2023 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; == December 2023 == [[File:Information.svg|left|25px|alt=]] Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a message letting you know that one or more of your recent edits to [[:List of slave owners]] have been undone by an automated computer program called [[User:ClueBot NG|ClueBot NG]]. {{clear}} * ClueBot NG makes very few [[User:ClueBot NG#Information About False Positives|mistakes]], but it does happen. If you believe the change you made was constructive, please [[User:ClueBot NG#Information About False Positives|read about it]], [{{User:ClueBot NG/Warnings/FPReport|4290731}} report it here], remove this message from your talk page, and then make the edit again. * For help, take a look at the [[Wikipedia:Introduction|introduction]]. * The following is the log entry regarding this message: [[List of slave owners]] was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List+of+slave+owners&amp;diff=1190702056&amp;oldid=1190026257 changed] by [[Special:Contributions/188.39.249.210|188.39.249.210]] [[User:188.39.249.210|(u)]] [[User talk:188.39.249.210|(t)]] ANN scored at 0.943344 on 2023-12-19T09:54:17+00:00 &lt;!-- MySQL ID: 4290731 --&gt; Thank you. &lt;!-- Template:uw-cluebotwarning1 --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --&gt; [[User:ClueBot NG|ClueBot NG]] ([[User talk:ClueBot NG|talk]]) 09:54, 19 December 2023 (UTC) == November 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:Osarius|Osarius]]. I wanted to let you know that one or more of [[Special:Contributions/188.39.249.210|your recent contributions]]&amp;#32;to [[:Roger Moore]] have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the [[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]] or the [[Wikipedia:Help desk|Help desk]]. Thanks.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --&gt; '''''[[User:Osarius|Os]][[User talk:Osarius|ari]][[Special:Contributions/Osarius|us]]''''' 10:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC) [[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop. If you continue to [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Raheem Sterling]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. &lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism3 --&gt; [[User:Devchar|Devchar]] ([[User talk:Devchar|talk]]) 11:47, 26 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; &lt;div style=clear: both&gt;&lt;/div&gt;[[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px]] You may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further warning''' the next time you vandalize Wikipedia, as you did with &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1259664924&amp;diff=1259665556 this edit]&lt;/span&gt; to [[:Raheem Sterling]].&lt;!-- Template:Huggle/warn-4 --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism4 --&gt; [[User:Borhan|Borhan]] ([[User talk:Borhan|talk]]) 11:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC) &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''1 month''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ushabuilders&diff=1259665317</id> <title>User talk:Ushabuilders</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ushabuilders&diff=1259665317"/> <updated>2024-11-26T11:51:14Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been indefinitely blocked from editing because your account is being used only for spam or advertising and your username is a violation of the username policy. <hr /> <div>== November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block uw-spamublock&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt; [[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=|link=]]Your account has been '''[[WP:Blocking policy#Indefinite blocks|indefinitely blocked]]''' from editing because it has been used for [[WP:Spam|advertising or promotion]], which is [[WP:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion|contrary]] to the [[WP:Five pillars|purpose of Wikipedia]]. Also, your username gives the impression that the account represents a business, organisation, group, or website, which is against the [[Wikipedia:Username policy|username policy]]. If you intend to make useful contributions instead of promoting your business or organization, you may request unblock and a username change. In your reasons, '''you must follow all these steps''': #'''Disclose''' any compensation you may receive for your contributions in accordance with the [[Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure|paid-contribution disclosure]] requirement; and #'''Convince''' us that you understand the reason for your block and that you will not repeat the kind of edits for which you were blocked; and #'''Describe''' in general terms the contributions that you intend to make if you are unblocked; and #'''Provide''' a new username. To do this, insert the text &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock-spamun|Your proposed new username|Your reason here}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; at the bottom of your talk page. Replace the text &quot;Your proposed new username&quot; with your new username and replace the text &quot;Your reason here&quot; with your reasons to be unblocked. Please note that the new username you choose cannot already be taken and in use by another account. You can [[Special:CentralAuth|search]] to see if the username you'd like to choose is available. If the search returns that no global account with that username exists, that means it is still available. '''Appeals:''' If, after reviewing the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], you believe this block was made in error, you may [[WP:Appealing a block|appeal it]] by adding the text &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; at the bottom of your talk page. Replace the text &quot;Your reason here&quot; with the reasons you believe the block was an error, and publish the page. [[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:51, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;[[Category:Wikipedians who are indefinitely blocked for promotional user names|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;!-- Template:Uw-spamublock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:72.92.130.247&diff=1259664889</id> <title>User talk:72.92.130.247</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:72.92.130.247&diff=1259664889"/> <updated>2024-11-26T11:47:20Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. <hr /> <div> == November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:47, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Teahouse&diff=1259664789</id> <title>Wikipedia:Teahouse</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Teahouse&diff=1259664789"/> <updated>2024-11-26T11:46:16Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: Reverted edit by 176.96.249.5 (talk) to last version by CommissarDoggo <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Community Q&amp;A hub for new editors}}{{skip to top and bottom}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{Automatic archive navigator}} |maxarchivesize = 400K |counter = 1241 |minthreadsleft = 10 |minthreadstoarchive = 45 |algo = old(48h) |archive = Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive %(counter)d }} {{clear}} {{Wikipedia:Teahouse/Header}} &lt;!-- Questions go here. Please post new questions at the BOTTOM of the page. --&gt; == How to edit page and add citations? == I’ve been trying to add new information on the Wikipedia article regarding Illinois’s Protect Illinois Communities Act, though I don’t know how to edit via the simple and direct way (without the brackets and other characters used for Wikipedia functions). If someone could help me out with adding this information or do it for me, that would be great. [[User:LordOfWalruses|LordOfWalruses]] ([[User talk:LordOfWalruses|talk]]) 01:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :If you {{querylink|qs=title=Protect_Illinois_Communities_Act&amp;veaction=edit|2=use VisualEditor on the Protect Illinois Communities Act article}}, does that allow [[User:LordOfWalruses|you]] to edit it? [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 01:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::That helped with adding the information, though I don’t know how to cite the source. ::(This is the source in case you’re wondering: https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/chicago/news/illinois-assault-weapons-ban-ruled-unconstitutional/ ) [[User:LordOfWalruses|LordOfWalruses]] ([[User talk:LordOfWalruses|talk]]) 03:08, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::Hello, {{u|LordOfWalruses}}. If you want to contribute to Wikipedia, then you need to learn how to create references to reliable sources. It is not that difficult. Please read and study [[WP:REFBEGIN|Referencing for beginners]], and if you have any ''specific'' questions, ask then here at the Teahouse. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 03:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Sure thing; I apologize for any inconvenience or confusion I caused amongst other users. If you could send that link to my talk page so that I can always know how to access it (even when this conversation is removed), that would be great. [[User:LordOfWalruses|LordOfWalruses]] ([[User talk:LordOfWalruses|talk]]) 05:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Sent. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 09:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::: {{Ping|LordOfWalruses}} Please don't apologise. This page exists ''specifically'' for new editors to ask questions like yours. Ask as many as you like. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:40, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::@[[User:LordOfWalruses|LordOfWalruses]], if it helps, you can put links to any handy Wikipedia things you want to be able to find easily on your user page. You can access your user page by clicking on your name either at the end of comments or on the top right of your screen. Your user page link is currently red, which means the page doesn't exist yet, so you'll start off by simply creating the page and adding whatever you like. Mine is full of links I find useful; you're welcome to investigate and use 'edit source' to see the Wikipedia coding I used. That should help you understand how all the linking shenanigans work! Feel free to post on my talk page if you have any questions about how I set it up. Welcome and happy editing! [[User:StartGrammarTime|StartGrammarTime]] ([[User talk:StartGrammarTime|talk]]) 21:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Dear StratGrammarTime, I would like to ask you for help. I use the icon in the upper left corner of the page to link information and quotes from external websites. For example, I am currently trying to create a page about the academic painter [[Stano Bubán]] ::::::Editors keep pointing out to me that I am using the wrong way of linking. I have asked several times in various discussion places to send me a link to generate the correct templates. So far, no one has sent me such a link. My question is: Is there a template generator to link to external websites? I assume that there certainly is one. Please, could you send me a link to generate the correct templates? Thank you. Have a nice day. [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 00:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Redirects and Sources == A while ago I was looking at the page for [[Xylocopa aerata]] when I noticed one of the plants it is described feeding at, [[Pultenaea elliptica]], was at the time a redlink. Thinking it would be an interesting project as my first real page, I did some research and discovered it is actually the previous name for [[Pultenaea tuberculata]]. I've already made Pultenaea elliptica a redirect to the correct page. I know this is probably a stupid question, but do I change the link in Xylocopa aerata from the redirect to the correct name, even though that was probably the name used in the source? [[User:PineappleWizard123|PineappleWizard123]] ([[User talk:PineappleWizard123|talk]]) 03:42, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, {{u|PineappleWizard123}}. In my opinion, the best solution is to display the name used in the cited source. If that name redirects to a more current name for the same species, there is nothing wrong with that. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 04:24, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:PineappleWizard123|PineappleWizard123]] An alternative if you didn't want to create the redirect would have been to use a [[WP:PIPED|piped link]]. The syntax &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[[Pultenaea tuberculata|Pultenaea elliptica]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; would give a blue-link direct to the correct article but would appear to the reader in the old name. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|PineappleWizard123}} [[WT:WikiProject Plants]] would be a good place to get subject-specialist advice. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|PineappleWizard123}} I can't seem to find any mention that that ''X. aerata'' feeds on any ''Pultenaea'' species online, as only Wikipedia mirrors report that. I would recommend just changing it to [[Pultenaea tuberculata]] (since the old name is from the 19th century and obsolete) and adding a {{cn}} (&lt;nowiki&gt;{{CN}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) tag to the statement, or locating a source(s), which I can't seem to find. [[User:Memer15151|&lt;span style=&quot;color: darkred&quot;&gt;User&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color: darkgreen&quot;&gt;Memer&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:Memer15151|&lt;span style=&quot;color: maroon&quot;&gt;chat&lt;/span&gt;]]) [[Special:Contributions/Memer15151|&lt;span style=&quot;color: darkgreen&quot;&gt;Tribs&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:42, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Something I think deserves a page. . . == There's a fantastic little game called ''Smile For Me'', developed by ''LimboLane''. I bet you're wondering &quot;Hey, if you want this to have a page so badly, why not do it yourself!?&quot; I gladly would, but I am severely inexperienced. As you may not know, I have only been on Wikipedia as an editor for less than a week. I just wanted to bring this fantastic little game to light and hope some people agree with me. Thanks, Wikipedians! [[User:Shovel Shenanigans|Shovel Shenanigans]] ([[User talk:Shovel Shenanigans|talk]]) 19:11, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :I had a similar situation with the game Redout 2. If there aren't any major publications like IGN or Kotaku running multiple articles on it, then any article made about your game will get nuked when it's checked for notability. [[User:ApteryxRainWing|ApteryxRainWing]] | [[User talk:ApteryxRainWing|Roar at me]] | [[Special:contribs/User:ApteryxRainWing|My contributions]] 19:14, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::Looking at the search results, there are articles about it on both of those sites, as well as Metacritic. So there's hope! [[User:Shovel Shenanigans|Shovel Shenanigans]] ([[User talk:Shovel Shenanigans|talk]]) 21:48, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::I have no experience with using this tool myself, but you can check out [[WP:AfC]] and see if they have any resources to help you develop this article. Don't be afraid to contribute, people are very willing to help! [[User:GracenC|/home/gracen/]] (yell at me [[User talk:GracenC|here]]) 20:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::That definitely helps. I'll probably get around to it eventually when I have more experience :) [[User:Shovel Shenanigans|Shovel Shenanigans]] ([[User talk:Shovel Shenanigans|talk]]) 21:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:GracenC|GracenC]], I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;tool&quot;? AfC isn't a tool, it's a process that editors who cannot create articles in mainspace can use to create articles. Experienced editors review the articles and accept or decline them based on whether they meet some basic standards, like [[WP:N]]. I wouldn't suggest that anyone use AfC if they don't have to - if you create an unsuitable article in mainspace, the patrollers from [[WP:NPP]] will notice it and give you suggestions or move it to draft space. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 03:16, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Apologies, that was poor word choice on my part. Also, thanks for the information; I was under the impression it was recommended for ''all'' new editors to go through AfC rather than just publishing to mainspace. [[User:GracenC|/home/gracen/]] (yell at me [[User talk:GracenC|here]]) 03:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Personally, as an AfC reviewer I wouldn't recommend it. If you submit to AfC, you have to wait until a reviewer sees and accepts your article for it to get to mainspace. Sometimes that can be a long wait. Meanwhile, if you create directly in mainspace and your article wouldn't pass AfC, NPP will draftify it (so, you'll end up in the AfC queue in the end anyway), and if it would pass, they'll mark it as patrolled, maybe with some maintenance tags, and you won't have had to wait in the AfC queue. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 03:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I have to disagree with asilvering. I also review AFC articles. And even though I am an experienced editor, I have submitted an article or two to AFC just to get a reviewer's eyes on it to gain suggestions for improvement. NPP is overwhelmed, they do not catch every problem, and a lot of junk that should never have been in main space ends up staying there. ::::::[[WP:DEADLINE|There are no deadlines on Wikipedia]] for stuff like this. If I have to wait 3 months for a draft to be reviewed, so be it, I don't care, I am in no hurry to get my articles published. ::::::Yes, it is recommended for new editors to go through AFC. Bypassing AFC potentially creates needless work for others to clean up after you, if what you created in main space isn't actually ready for publication there. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 04:14, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::@[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]], you're autopatrolled. NPP will miss ''all'' of your articles, because they aren't looking at them. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 04:16, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I wasn't referring to my own articles in the context of NPP. Looking at what I wrote, I can see how it would come across that way. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 05:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} If the above exchange confuses any new Wikipedians: I think it shows an acceptable difference in opinion. If anyone wants yet another, I would've suggested going to [[WP:VG|the Video games WikiProject]], showing them [[WP:three|three]] sources, and asking if the subject seems to satisfy criteria for a standalone article (what Wikipedia calls &quot;[[WP:notability|notability]]&quot;). Especially with the changing landscape of gaming journalism (the and video game industry in general), what sources are [[WP:VG/RS|reliable or not]] may not be obvious. If the answer is &quot;not notable&quot;, then it [[WP:AKON|saves you the effort]] of writing a draft (per Anachronist) or an article (per asilvering). [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 14:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :This definitely clears up the issue for me. All input is greatly appreciated, but thank you for dusting it off! [[User:Shovel Shenanigans|Shovel Shenanigans]] ([[User talk:Shovel Shenanigans|talk]]) 17:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == MA dissertation == Hi, is an MA dissertation with a professor advisor a reliable source ? One is being referenced at [[Nosso Senhor dos Passos Chapel]], regards [[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]] ([[User talk:Atlantic306|talk]]) 20:42, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi @[[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]], usually no. We require the sources to be ''published'', and MA dissertations are rarely published. Doctorate dissertations ''are'' sometimes published, but should be used with care. More info at [[WP:DISSERTATION]]. &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;qcne&lt;/span&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :: Thanks for that advice, i'll ask the article editor to find a replacement reference, regards [[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]] ([[User talk:Atlantic306|talk]]) 21:04, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{U|Qcne}}, I'm not sure I've got the same working definition of {{tqq|published}}. This source may never have been printed off after being added to the university's records, but it is clearly ''publically accessible'', and even has an {{HDL|10183/202436}} and declared licensing (CC-BY-NC-SA). We had a convo about the acceptability of MA dissertations recently at {{slink|Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 58|Allowing Master's theses when not used to dispute more reliable sources}} (May 2024), which I'll not attempt to summarise since I participated. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 11:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Thanks @[[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] - that's really interesting and I guess my knowledge was out of date. &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;qcne&lt;/span&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 14:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Rule of thumb: [[WP:DISSERTATION|no]]. Real answer: [[WP:TIERS|it depends]]. For uncontroversial claims, no reason not to allow it. [[User:Closed Limelike Curves|– Closed Limelike Curves]] ([[User talk:Closed Limelike Curves|talk]]) 22:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Page of painter Stano Bubán == Dear editors, I would like to ask some questions about page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stano_Bub%C3%A1n. How I can generate links to external sources on the Internet in this way?: &lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=THE WALKER |url=https://danubiana.sk/en/vystavy/chodec |access-date=2024-11-21 |website=Danubiana}}&lt;/ref&gt; I use the technique of linking to external sources using the icon on the page bar. Please, could you send me a link to generate a link using your technique? I would also like to ask, why the bar still appears on the page: &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Unreferenced section|date=November 2024}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;? When I added additional external sources confirming my published information. Many links to the cited opening of exhibitions, that Stano Bubán participated in as an exhibitor, are not on the Internet, so I cannot document all. But I used information about exhibitions from public sources. For example, from the source of the Academy of Fine Arts, Bratislava, Slovakia. This source is official. The website of the Academy of Fine Arts contains only verified information. Similarly, the cited study stays do not have Internet links, so they cannot be documented, but Stano Bubán, as a university teacher, had to document all the information I provided on his Webside page and the page of the Academy of Fine Arts, Bratislava, Slovakia. I gathered information about his family from communication with him. Such information about his family (name of mother, sisters, daughters etc. is not available on the internet. Thank you very much for your help....... [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 09:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :I suppressed the coding displaying the maintenance tag, as placing it here tags this page. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|Jozef Heriban}} If information is not in a published [[WP:RS|reliable source]] that can be [[WP:V|verified]], it cannot be on Wikipedia. :Since you are in communication with the subject regarding the article about him, you should declare a [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]]. Articles are typically written without any involvement from, or even the knowledge of, the subject. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:40, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thanks for your answer. But I still don't understand, why the bar &quot;This section does not cite any sources&quot; keeps appearing in the sections Selected exhibitions, Study stays, Awards... I added credible links to realized exhibitions and links to clearly credible sources. Please, can you advise me, what else I should do to remove those bars? ::Regarding information about the family. There are many pages on Wikipedia, mainly of actors, directors, designers, artists, which contain information about their family members. I have not noticed anywhere that this information is questioned and is also not supported by external sources. Please, can you explain me, why this information is questioned in my case? Thank you. Greetings... [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 09:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Jozef Heriban}} It's being questioned because it was pointed out to us. As this is a volunteer project where people do what they can when they can, we can only address what we know about. It is possible for inappropriate content to get by us, even for years. Inappropriate content existing on one article does not mean that it can exist on another(see [[WP:OSE|other stuff exists]]). If you know of other articles with improperly sourced information, please point those out so we can take action. We need the help. :::You added some sources, but many are still unsourced. I'm actually skeptical the article should list his entire work history at all- but if its going to, it needs to be sourced. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 10:12, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::Hello, @[[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]]: to reply to your specific question: tags such as {{tl|unsourced section}} are not automatic: they are applied by an editor, and removed by an editor. Since those sections now have some citations, I have replaced {{tl|unsourced section}} with {{tl|more citations needed section}}. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 10:26, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Dear ColinFine, I would like to ask you for help. I use the icon in the upper left corner of the page to link information and quotes from external websites. For example, I am currently trying to create a page about the academic painter [[Stano Bubán]] ::::Your colleagues keep pointing out to me that I am using the wrong way of linking. I have asked several times in various places intended for discussion of your colleagues to send me a link to generate the correct templates. So far, no one has sent me such a link. My question is: Is there a template generator that I can use when creating pages on Wikipedia to link to external websites? I assume that there certainly is one. Please, could you send me a link to generate the correct templates? Thank you. Have a nice evening. [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 23:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::@[[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] You seem to be using the {{tl|cite web}} template correctly judging by the example you used. There is a really useful tool called citer at [https://citer.toolforge.org/ this toolforge link]. It can take URL or various other inputs and generate a pretty good citation to use as a footnote in an article. Sometimes you need to tweak the output a bit but it speeds things up. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Dear Michael, thank you very much for your support. I struggled a lot until I managed to get a link to generate templates. So I'm posting the link here, so that others don't have to read the criticism on their pages about how they can't link to external sources correctly. Template generator link: https://citer.toolforge.org/ [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 19:13, 24 November 2024 (UTC) {{reflist-talk}} == Re-submitting an Article == Hi guys, I recently submitted an article on the &quot;Worldview International Foundation&quot; which got rejected due to lack of quality references. I have adjusted the article according to my knowledge. I was thinking of resubmitting the article but I am not sure if it will be completely scrapped if it gets rejected again. I was wondering if another senior editor can see that and let me know if anything is wrong. Or whether I should simply re-submit and wait for evaluation? Thanks in advance! [[User:EditorSenpai|EditorSenpai]] ([[User talk:EditorSenpai|talk]]) 09:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :The best way to get feedback is to resubmit the draft. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you! I appreciate the comment. I think I will submit the draft and see. [[User:EditorSenpai|EditorSenpai]] ([[User talk:EditorSenpai|talk]]) 20:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :The only secondary source I see giving significant coverage of the subject is &quot;Global Issues&quot;, which is clearly not reliable. Other sources do not mention the subject or do so briefly. &lt;span style=&quot;border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F&quot;&gt;[[User:Remsense|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;'''Remsense'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;‥&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;[[User talk:Remsense|&lt;span lang=&quot;zh&quot; style=&quot;color:#fff&quot;&gt;'''论'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::FYI - [[Draft:Worldview International Foundation]] was Declined, which is less severe than Rejected. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 15:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yes and I have adjusted accordingly. :::I have decided to resubmit the article again and see whether it has merit or further issues to fix. :::It is the first article I am writing on Wikipedia and I really appreciate all the help and guidance! [[User:EditorSenpai|EditorSenpai]] ([[User talk:EditorSenpai|talk]]) 21:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you for your feedback! ::I do have a genuine concern as the article I am working on is about is a well-established NGO that is working towards mangrove restoration but has rarely been studied within scholarly articles. ::Please let me know if there are any specific recommendations you would suggest for me to overcome this issue. [[User:EditorSenpai|EditorSenpai]] ([[User talk:EditorSenpai|talk]]) 21:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Content deliverer/s == When a source's URL is an article at JSTOR uploaded to the Internet Archive should &quot;[[JSTOR]] via the [[Internet Archive]]&quot; be in the Content deliverer field (leading to &quot;via [[JSTOR]] via the [[Internet Archive]]&quot; in the citation) or would it be better only to enter [[Internet Archive]] in the field and mention [[JSTOR]] in a postscript note? [[User:Mcljlm|Mcljlm]] ([[User talk:Mcljlm|talk]]) 11:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello Mcljlm. Just mentioning the Internet Archive should be fine. [[User:TheWikipede|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family: monospace; color: blue; text-shadow: 0px 0px 10px lightblue;&quot;&gt;TheWikipede&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:TheWikipede|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family: monospace; color: blue;&quot;&gt;''talk''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Reverting a long-time user's revision == Hello, and sorry for taking up your time! I haven't been in Wikipedia for long and my revisions had only been somewhat minor (mostly fixing grammars and deleting words that are inaccurate to the sources). I found that the [[Majapahit]] article which I had been watching was edited in a way that I believe is mostly damaging by a long-time user. I reverted their revisions but they reverted it back. How should I respond to this? The safest way that I can think of is to edit the current article to be more similar to the previous version, but that will include most things except the infobox. Should I just revert everything again, especially considering that I'm new? And is there a way to prevent said user (and others) from changing the article in a similar manner? Thank you. [[User:Miserableed|Miserableed]] ([[User talk:Miserableed|talk]]) 13:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :I'd recommend reading (or at least skimming) [[WP:EDITWAR]] before deciding to get into a conflict with a more experienced editor. I'd also recommend asking them why they chose to revert your edits by either starting a new topic on their user talk page, or by mentioning them on the article's talk page (you can do this by linking to their user page). As more general advice (not saying you did this here), don't take it as an attack when someone reverts your edits. It's just them saying that they disagree, and you can always try to convince them otherwise (see [[WP:GOODFAITH]]). [[User:GracenC|/home/gracen/]] (yell at me [[User talk:GracenC|here]]) 20:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Miserableed}} Further to the correct answer above, the process to follow is described at [[WP:DR]]. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Reliable references == Hi, My article was rejected due to a lack of reliable references. As my topic is somewhat obscure (a sculpture), the references are equally obscure but I tried hard to find real references. Any thoughts? [[Draft:Chrinitoid]]. [[User:Tompayne36|Tompayne36]] ([[User talk:Tompayne36|talk]]) 15:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :It's not so much that the references are obscure as much as the references are all closely connected to RIP or Rickey themselves. It seems appropriate where it is in Rickey's article, but I think I'd have to agree that the sourcing isn't sufficient to show the sculpture should have an article of its own. I wonder if you'd find more extensive, independent coverage from the Troy Record or another paper in the Capital District. [[User:CoffeeCrumbs|CoffeeCrumbs]] ([[User talk:CoffeeCrumbs|talk]]) 16:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Tompayne36}} For a subject like that you might need to refer to contemporary newspaper sources. When you have been here a while longer, you can use [[WP:LIBRARY]] to access some archives that are otherwise paywalled. Perhaps the university had its own publication, or a student paper? You could contact them directly. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::@pigsonthewing Hi. I referenced the RPI Alumni Magazine. It was an article I wrote, but they did publish it. There was also a reference in the campus humor magazine and the unofficial “Not the Rensselaer Handbook” [[User:Tompayne36|Tompayne36]] ([[User talk:Tompayne36|talk]]) 21:13, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::It was also referenced in the student newspaper (The Polytechnic)https://www.tumblr.com/witnessmoderations/85215827917/in-search-of-the-chrinitoid [[User:Tompayne36|Tompayne36]] ([[User talk:Tompayne36|talk]]) 21:18, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Fan Zhibo == [[:ru:Jibo]] Hello. Please help me create a Wikipedia page for Fan Zhibo in English. [[User:TanyaGroot|TanyaGroot]] ([[User talk:TanyaGroot|talk]]) 15:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:TanyaGroot|TanyaGroot]], and welcome to the Teahouse. The Teahouse is not really a place to look for collaborators. Have you read [[WP:Translation|Translation]]? [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 20:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Fonts and citations == # first, is there a settings thing to change the font into something [[Sans-serif#Geometric|Geometric]]? because it's easier to read then Arial for me # is there a way to hide citations? it was annoying when I first started Wikipedia, I never use them, and it's just annoying when copy-pasting or printing [[User:Saarabout|Saarabout]] ([[User talk:Saarabout|talk]]) 22:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :To answer your first question, I believe that Wikipedia uses the default font that your browser does, so you can just change it there. I don't know about the second question, though. [[User:GracenC|/home/gracen/]] (yell at me [[User talk:GracenC|here]]) 00:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello [[User:Saarabout|Saarabout]], there is a pretty straightforward way to remove the footnotes from copied text. Do you use a text editor with [[regular expression]]s? If so, you can replace &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;\[\d*\]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; with nothing and it will scrub the footnotes from the article. I do this sometimes to use spelling/grammar checkers. There are some online tools that you can use for this as well.[https://coding.tools/regex-replace][https://regex101.com/r/kUW4Ug/1] This is an [https://rextester.com/replace/UXKAM97759 example using a random paragraph] from ''[[Night of the Living Dead]]''. :Hiding the footnotes across the site is more awkward. There isn't a straightforward way to do it, both because most editors would not want to hide the citations and because not all footnotes are made the same way. To hide nearly all footnotes go to [[Special:MyPage/common.css]], create the page, copy just this line &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;sup.reference {display:none;}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; and save the page. To turn the footnotes back on, go to [[Special:MyPage/common.css]], click edit, and delete or comment out that line. I realize that's a weird solution, [[User:Rjjiii|&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps;&quot;&gt;Rjj&lt;sup&gt;iii&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:Rjjiii|talk]]) 02:42, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Unsure as to whether article is actually been submitted for review. == I’ve completed a draft, and seemingly published it, but i can’t find it in the list of articles submitted for review. Have i submitted correctly? [[Draft:Kieran Howe]] [[User:MyNameIsGeorgeHale|MyNameIsGeorgeHale]] ([[User talk:MyNameIsGeorgeHale|talk]]) 01:11, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Yes, you successfully submitted it. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 01:25, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::And it has been declined, reasons given by the reviewer and Comments. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 23:28, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Submitting a bio == I need to get a bio of my pastor on Wikipedia, but I don't really have a way to footnote anything. He has books with bios on the back cover and he has an outdated bio on his own website. I made a simple bio on Wikimedia Commons site for Dr. Larry Ollison, and that's about all I really need on Wikipedia. I need it because on the streaming site for LarryOllisonRadio.com, when you click on Larry's name, the software searches for that name on Wikipedia. Right now it finds Barry White who has a son, with the name Ollison. Can anyone here help me create this bio on the main site? Jim McDermott [[User:Jimmcdcmm|Jimmcdcmm]] ([[User talk:Jimmcdcmm|talk]]) 01:47, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :I'm afraid &quot;I need it&quot; is not a real reason for anyone to create an article. What is needed is evidence of [[WP:N|notability]] via [[WP:SIGCOV|significant coverage]] from [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::Follow up question: would this website be a reliable source? https://www.faithandflame.com/collections/harrison-house-books/products/hidden-mysteries-and-the-bible-secrets-revealed-aliens-ufos-giants-time-travel-multiverse-ai-other-unexplained-phenomena-paperback-october-1-2024. There are quotes there by other authors about Dr. Ollison and a picture of his book with a bio on the book. [[User:Jimmcdcmm|Jimmcdcmm]] ([[User talk:Jimmcdcmm|talk]]) 03:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::A &quot;buy it here&quot; page? No. An article about a person needs to cite sources that provide in-depth coverage ''about'' that person. See [[Wikipedia:Golden Rule]] for the kinds of sources required. That one you cited doesn't meet the criteria, because none of the information there is independent of the author or the book, and none of it constitutes &quot;coverage&quot;. Even if all you could find were book reviews, that suggests that the book may be notable, but not the author. :::Also, what you're asking is basically to use Wikipedia as a publicity platform (or a way to fix technical problems you are having with publicity that isn't a problem for Wikipedia), and that sort of purpose is prohibited. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 04:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Jimmcdcmm}} If your pastor is pressuring you to do this, you can refer him to [[WP:BOSS]]. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :If the image is free, then it can exist on commons and does not need to be on enwiki also. If it is non-free, it is forbidden to be on commons and also does not seem to satisfy the limited cases where non-free content is allowed on enwiki. The licensing and origin really needs to be clarified, and usually only the photographer (or someone else specified by a contract the photographer has) can make a valid license release. Please see [[Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials]] for information about how to figure out who owns the license and how they can release it for use. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 01:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Hasn't been said, but Teahouse Hosts are here to advise, not to co-author. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 20:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Doubt == Hello, could someone please tell me that if there is a politician with name &quot;example politician&quot; and his page is already available but there is one more politician from another constituency who has been elected and his name is also &quot;example politician&quot; than what to do? [[User:AstuteFlicker|AstuteFlicker]] ([[User talk:AstuteFlicker|talk]]) 01:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :I'm assuming this is not meant to be taken literally and you mean there might be a &quot;John Smith&quot; elected in Florida and another in England, or whatever? [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation]] would be the answer. If there are just two notable persons by the same name we would usually add qualifiers to the page titles and [[WP:HATNOTE|HATNOTE]]s at the top of both pages. If there are several we would create a disambiguation page listing them all. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:12, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::I far as I know there are just two people because one already had a page the second one has recently been elected. If you don't mind once I create the page I'll let you know and if you could just see that part it would be very helpful for me because I don't have much idea of it. But for that first, I need to have a title for it because both the titles are same and the page cannot be created because it already has a article with that name '''what should the name be given'''? [[User:AstuteFlicker|AstuteFlicker]] ([[User talk:AstuteFlicker|talk]]) 02:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::For the second article, it can simply be &quot;John Smith (another constituency)&quot;. And for the first article that is already existing, if it has been the only article with that title, we can apply a hatnote to direct readers to the new article for a start per [[WP:TWODAB]]. Why not create the article first and let us help you evaluate which title the article(s) should reside at? [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 03:05, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@{{u|Robertsky}} I have created [[Ashok Kumar Singh (Ramgarh)]] there is one more page named [[Ashok Kumar Singh]] please do the needful. Also, is the name fine? If not, please feel free to move it.. [[User:AstuteFlicker|AstuteFlicker]] ([[User talk:AstuteFlicker|talk]]) 05:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::[[Ashok Kumar Singh]] is now a disambiguation page that links to both articles. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 05:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{u|AstuteFlicker}}, the article title seems to be fine but the article itself tells us nothing about this person other than their name, the legislative office they hold, and their political party affiliation. The article is more like a directory or database listing than an encyclopedia article. When and where was he born? What is his educational background? Where did he work before becoming a politician? What are his unique political positions and legislative plans? Was his electoral victory tough or easy? Does he have other leadership roles in his community or his political party? Is he married? Does he have children? And so on. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 05:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::@[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] Thank you very much for your valuable attention to this article. The articles which I am creating right know are all stubs about the MLAs who had been elected very recently. The elected MLAs are mostly new and that is the reason why, much information about them ain't available right know. With time, when more sources about them will be published I will make sure to add or update it. Meanwhile, the other editors can also contribute to it if they wish to. [[User:AstuteFlicker|AstuteFlicker]] ([[User talk:AstuteFlicker|talk]]) 05:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::{{u|AstuteFlicker}}, nothing that you have done is contrary to policy but I happen to believe quite firmly that it is a far greater service to the encyclopedia to create five well-referenced, informative start class articles than 50 microstubs. People can easily consult legislative directories to get this basic database information. Encyclopedia articles should be much more informative. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 05:57, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::@[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] unfortunately, this is a by-product of the [[WP:NPOL]]. One can only hope that the article will expand correspondingly when more details about the elected politician are released. [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 14:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Thanks @[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] for following up on this. [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 14:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Article Edit Assist == Hey there! I created an article on Imagine Dragons song, Take Me To The Beach. It’s my first article, so I’d appreciate some feedback/editing if that’s ok? [[Draft:Take Me To The Beach (Imagine Dragons song)]] [[User:ImagineDragonsFan101|ImagineDragonsFan101]] ([[User talk:ImagineDragonsFan101|talk]]) 01:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Your draft is almopst certainly going to be declined for lacking [[WP:RS|relaible sources]] that include [[WP:SIGCOV|significant coverage]] of the song. YouTube is not a reliable source. Apple Music is not a reliable source. And so on. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 02:07, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Local wiki upload == I am trying to upload an image (the first one on the left of the page) from https://www.gpchicago.com/architecture/paramount/ under [[Wikipedia:Non-free content|fair use]] to use in [[Paramount Tower (Nashville)]]. Wikimedia Commons says [[Commons:Fair use|fair use images should be uploaded to a local wiki]] (which should be English Wikipedia?) I believe the image fits all criteria and there are no free replacements as it is a render of a building that has only just started construction. So how do I upload it to English Wikipedia specifically? [[User:King airaglub|King airaglub]] ([[User talk:King airaglub|talk]]) 03:14, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, {{u|King airaglub}}. That image appears to be a copyrighted [[architectural rendering]] of a future building. The opportunity for a free replacement is obvious: wait until construction is complete and take a photo of the actual building. Or even take and freely license a photo of the half completed building under construction or the jobsite consisting of a hole in the ground with earth moving equipment around it. I fail to see how non-free use of this copyrighted rendering image complies with the relevant policy language at [[WP:NFCI|Non-free content - images]]. We do not need to be in a rush to have an image of this building. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 04:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::To me that is not a good solution. For one, there are many other articles of proposed buildings that have renderings shown under fair use in the same manner as what I am trying to do, such as [[4/C]], [[Legends Tower]], and [[One Bayfront Plaza]]. Besides, a picture of an empty construction hole would not add encyclopedic value. [[User:King airaglub|King airaglub]] ([[User talk:King airaglub|talk]]) 14:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == I would like to open a page with information about myself and my career, can anyone help? == I would like to open a page with information about myself and my career, can anyone help? [[User:Dragan Mihailovic|Dragan Mihailovic]] ([[User talk:Dragan Mihailovic|talk]]) 05:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, {{u|Dragan Mihailovic}}. I have got to tell you that this is almost certainly a really bad idea that leads to failure and time wasting and bad feelings about 99.9% of the time. Read [[WP:AUTOBIOGRAPHY]] for a much more detailed explanation. Your time would be better spent telling the world about you on various social media platforms rather than in an encyclopedia. Self promotion is forbidden on Wikipedia but welcomed and encouraged elsewhere. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 05:44, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::thank you @[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]], very kind of you!! [[User:Dragan Mihailovic|Dragan Mihailovic]] ([[User talk:Dragan Mihailovic|talk]]) 06:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == wikipidia search == what is the difference between &quot;disambiguation&quot; and &quot;topics refered to by the same term&quot;? [[User:YisroelB501|YisroelB501]] ([[User talk:YisroelB501|talk]]) 07:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC) : {{u|YisroelB501}} Can you please supply a link to the page with the text that is confusing you, so we can see the context of your question? [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 08:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ping|YisroelB501}} Do you refer to search suggestions like below while you are typing in the search box? &lt;pre&gt;Titanic (disambiguation) Topics referred to by the same term &lt;/pre&gt; :The first line gives the full page name &quot;[[Titanic (disambiguation)]]&quot;. The second line gives a [[Wikipedia:Short description]] of the page. For disambiguation pages the short description &quot;Topics referred to by the same term&quot; is automatically added by {{tl|Disambiguation}}. It's possible to override it but we rarely do that. Short descriptions are shown together with the page name so there is no need to repeat &quot;Titanic&quot;. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 10:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :If there is no [[WP:PTOPIC|primary topic]] then a disambiguation page doesn't get &quot;(disambiguation)&quot; in the page name but still gets the short description &quot;Topics referred to by the same term&quot;, e.g. [[Stay]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 10:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == When will the newly created page be searchable on Google? == On Wednesday, I created a page for academic painter Stano Bubán on the English Wikipedia [[Stano Bubán]]. I want to ask when this page will be searchable via Google? It can be searched on Wikipedia, but it is not searchable via Google yet. Thank you for your answer. [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 08:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Your article will be patrolled first and after review, it takes about a week before your article is ranked on goggle [[User:Tesleemah|Tesleemah]] ([[User talk:Tesleemah|talk]]) 08:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::I'm fairly sure it can sometimes take more than a week. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] If the [[WP:NPP|new page patrol]] don't get to it, and they are heavily backlogged, it will become indexable by search engines after 90 days. I find that, once patrolled, indexing happens very quickly, especially if anyone adds an edit. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 15:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Dear Turnbull, thank you very much for your reply... have a nice day... [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 15:51, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::Dear Tesleemah, thank you very much for your reply... have a nice day... [[User:Jozef Heriban|Jozef Heriban]] ([[User talk:Jozef Heriban|talk]]) 15:52, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::The article [[Stano Bubán]] looks like it is in good condition, but there are two problems. 1. there are no links to it from anywhere else on the website, and 2. it does not seem clear that you own the copyright to the photos of him, particularly his first photo that looks like it was professionally done and the painting he did at the end of the page. [[User:Reconrabbit|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6BAD2D&quot;&gt;Recon&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Reconrabbit|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#2F3833&quot;&gt;rabbit&lt;/span&gt;]] 16:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC) *{{re|Jozef Heriban}} Hi. Google, and Wikipedia are two different websites. An article becomes eligible for being indexed by Google (or any other search engines) after it is &quot;reviewed&quot; here. The time taken to be indexed after the review, is totally up to that particular search engine. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 17:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == About an Edit by the User == States in India do not have flags or banners, they have their emblems or seals, most containing the Emblem of India. In the Page of [[Government of Punjab, India]], Due to no evidence, I deleted the image claiming to be the banner of the State Government. I 've never seen it in use in any of the Offices, Website, Notifications, Events, Buildings of the Government (I've been to many). The user is the uploader of the said file, he was the one who first added it, and he did the same again. What should be done? [[User:VeritasVanguard|VeritasVanguard]] ''&quot;Seeking truth in every edit&quot;'' 14:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi! I suggest starting a discussion with the user on the article's talk page to see if they can provide a reliable source that explicitly supports the claim that the image in question is the state's banner. See [[WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS]] and [[WP:original research]]. [[User:Perception312|Perception312]] ([[User talk:Perception312|talk]]) 15:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC) === Use of a banner in an Infobox === Recently i added a Government banner in the infobox of the [[Government of Punjab, India]], but now an user keep deleting it citing that Indian states don't use banners but in reality Indian state governments use banners to represent the state government. We have a whole article on Wikipedia on this topic ([[List of Indian state flags#Banners of the states and union territories|List of Indian state flags]]), I don't want to start an editing war, what i can do now? [[User:Shubhdeep Sandhu|Shubhdeep Sandhu]] ([[User talk:Shubhdeep Sandhu|talk]]) 08:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :{{re|Shubhdeep Sandhu}} I've moved a related discussion down and put your question under it. The [[Wikipedia:Teahouse#c-Perception312-20241121150000-VeritasVanguard-20241121141400|above advice]] applies to you, too: {{tq|[start] a discussion with the user on the article's talk page to ... provide a reliable source that explicitly supports the claim that the image in question is the state's banner}}. [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 10:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Since that advice was given, you received {{querylink|qs=diff=1259272200&amp;oldid=1258302727|2=some user talk messages}} on the matter; I've found no discussions at [[Talk:Government of Punjab, India]] or the [[Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics|Noticeboard for India-related topics]]. As of this reply, the edit summary of the [[Special:Diff/1259272160|most recent revert]] says {{tq|Unreliable and irrelevant source}}, so it seems like the source you provided is inadequate. [[List of Indian state flags]] is [[WP:RSPWP|similarly unsuitable]] because anyone can edit it. [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 10:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] I have said , and will state again 'That states in India do not have flags', they have seals/emblems that they use. This is misleading to upload a file namely 'Banner of Punjab' when there is no use by the said government. The user in its Commons File deletion gives 'Indiamart' a selling platform, vexilla-mundi.com &amp; other unknown, Facebook (unreliable) sources. '''[[User:VeritasVanguard|Veritas]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:darkblue;&quot;&gt;Vanguard&lt;/span&gt;''': &lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;''&quot;Seeking truth in every edit&quot;''&lt;/span&gt; 14:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :[[User:Shubhdeep Sandhu|Shubhdeep Sandhu]], I have replied to you on [[Talk:Government of Punjab, India]]. [[User:Jeraxmoira|Jeraxmoira🐉]] ([[User talk:Jeraxmoira|talk]]) 14:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Review == Greetings, Any professional editor able to review and provide suggestions to get my article published? Thanks a million, Annie [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 09:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :[[User:Anniebeau]] Welcome to the Teahouse. I assume you are referring to [[Draft:Dan Yessian]]. The article has been reviewed twice. There are several suggestions at the top of that draft. Is there a specific suggestion that you do not understand?&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]] ([[User talk:Shantavira#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Shantavira|contribs]]) 09:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; ::@[[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] I have removed all the external links from the body text, as these are not normally allowed. I also fixed a couple of archive errors and did a bit of tidying up. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 15:16, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Mike, :::I appreciate you! Thank you! :::Andrea [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 15:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::This version is much different than the initial draft. [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 15:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Declined again. There is still a lot of unreferenced content. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 23:32, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I am unsure what is considered &quot;unreferenced&quot; as I ensured each bit of information was noted with a reference. That is why I have about 18 news articles documented. ::::Can anyone please guide me as to what information is considered unreferenced? [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 23:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::@[[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]], you have quite a lot of sentences in the Career section that appear to be unreferenced. If they are in fact all referenced by the next given citation, you may want to think about combing them into paragraphs and/or using [[WP:REFNAME|named references]] so it's clear where the information comes from. Generally, if there's no citation on the end of a sentence, and it's not a part of a longer piece of information, that sentence is likely to be considered unreferenced. [[User:StartGrammarTime|StartGrammarTime]] ([[User talk:StartGrammarTime|talk]]) 02:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Thank you for your time and guidance! [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 11:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Mike, ::::Are you talking about the note on the draft from last week, or do you mean today? [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 01:00, 25 November 2024 (UTC) In the current version, here is some of the unreferenced text: *A 1967 graduate of Wayne State University, Yessian taught speech and English for four years at Detroit's Redford High School. He left education to pursue a music career. *In 1971, Yessian Music opened in a 300-square-foot office, once an old bait shop in Farmington. He called local car dealers hoping to interest them in purchasing a custom jingle to promote their business. *Yessian wrote theme songs for sports organizations including Detroit Pistons, Detroit Red Wings, Detroit Tigers and Los Angeles Dodgers. *In the 1980s, Yessian met songwriter David Barrett (Composer &quot;One Shining Moment&quot;) with whom he composed numerous songs including a collaboration on &quot;I See Wings&quot; a song written for Yessian's documentary and symphonic work &quot;An Armenian Trilogy&quot;. There is more. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 03:37, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :David, :You are absolutely right. I will correct. :Thanks again! [[User:Anniebeau|Anniebeau]] ([[User talk:Anniebeau|talk]]) 11:27, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Wikidata tangle == I've been trying to fix the wikidata linking around [[Tambourin]], but I think it may not be possible. The situation is: * en:Tambourin covers the Provence drum &amp; dance * en:Tabor (instrument) covers the Provence drum and Catalan drum, and a Welsh version, as a superset * fr:Tambourin (sur fût) covers the Provence drum and Catalan drum * fr:Tambourin (danse) covers the dance * fr:Timbal (musique catalane) covers a Catalan version On wikidata: * &quot;tambori&quot; links to en:Tambori and fr:Tambourin (sur fût) * &quot;tambourin&quot; describes the dance; linked to fr:Tambourin (danse) and I've linked to en:Tambourin (danse), a redirect to en:Tambourin * &quot;tambourin (Provencal)&quot; (created by me) describes the drum and links to en:Tambourin * &quot;tabor&quot; links to en:Tabor (instrument) and fr:Timbal (musique catalan) Essentially, both tambori and tambourin (Provencal) need to link to fr:Tambourin (sur fût); tabor may also need to link there but doesn't appear to really have a good target; and both tambourin and tambourin (Provencal) need to link to en:Tambourin, but wikidata only allows one item to link to a given article. As you can see above I've created a redirect to fix one bit, but wikidata tries to stop you from adding these and I'm pretty sure it's not the intended solution. Does wikidata have a way of solving this? [[User:Mrfoogles|Mrfoogles]] ([[User talk:Mrfoogles|talk]]) 16:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Mrfoogles|Mrfoogles]] That sounds like a problem better handled by the experts at Wikidata. There is [[:d:WD:IWC|a place to report interwiki conflicts]]. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Conflict of Interest, New Editor, Already made edits - eek! == I am an associate member of the Society of Graphic Fine Art, and was asked by the committee to update the Wikipedia page. I have made significant changes to the article, which contained inaccurate and inadequate information. Naturally, I believe that I maintained a neutral position, but I am aware that it is not my place to judge this. I need help with this, please! I know that I need to declare this conflict of interest. I located the [[Template:UserboxCOI|UserCOI template]] and I understand that this goes on my user page - but where and how? What do I do about the edited page? I think I need to put a COI declaration on [[Society of Graphic Fine Art]] - again, I'm not sure where or how. Does another, impartial editor review my changes? Or do the changes need to be rescinded? I now know that I should not make any more edits on the Society's page (apart from very minor ones). [[User:AmandaJBates|AmandaJBates]] ([[User talk:AmandaJBates|talk]]) 18:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Don't worry all your edits were reverted as &quot;not an imporvement at all&quot;. In future please request edits with the template {{t|edit COI}}. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 18:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|AmandaJBates}} Your user page is on the one that is (currently) a read link at the end of your comment here. It will go blue when you add some content there. You can also declare your COI in a comment on [[Talk:Society of Graphic Fine Art]] (the discussion page, as opposed to the article itself), which is also where you can request future changes. You may find these pages helpful: [[WP:BOSS]] and [[WP:FAQAS|our FAQ for article subjects]]. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|AmandaJBates}}: just to note that Andy must mean &quot;red link&quot; above, not &quot;read link&quot;. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 21:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::I have no idea why somebody thought it was a good idea to list roughly 150 artists who participated in the organization's 1921 exhibition, referenced to the organization's own 1921 catalogue. Wikipedia articles about an organization should summarize what reliable sources entirely ''independent'' of the organization say about it, with very limited exceptions. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 23:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::My first thought is the fact that so many of the artists who participated in the first exhibition (1921) are subjects of Wikipedia articles reflects on the importance of the organization at its origin, BUT it is possible, nay likely, that these people became Wikipedia-notable for careers that extended long past 1921. So delete the list! [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 23:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The list will be going if I have my way, on account if its irrelevance if nothing else. [[Special:Contributions/80.41.63.175|80.41.63.175]] ([[User talk:80.41.63.175|talk]]) 10:48, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Sorry, that was me.&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:AmandaJBates|AmandaJBates]] ([[User talk:AmandaJBates|talk]]) 10:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Sadly, there is very little available material that doesn't trace back to the Society, one way or another. It's a little bit ... niche, should we say. I take it that mission statements etc are one of your exceptions? ::::&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:AmandaJBates|AmandaJBates]] ([[User talk:AmandaJBates|talk]]) 11:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Addition == if anyone’s watch the 900 days without Annabelle documentary, I feel like Rafael who was the first president of his country also tried very hard to help this case and I think that deserved to be realized in his page! I just don’t know how to write it good..[[Rafael Escuredo]] [[Special:Contributions/66.129.196.190|66.129.196.190]] ([[User talk:66.129.196.190|talk]]) 20:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, IP user. If you have an improvement to suggest to an article, the article's talk page is the best place to make the suggestion. Your suggestion is more likely to be taken seriously if you cite a [[WP:RS|reliable published source]] for any information you wish to add. (I have no idea who Rafael is, or what that documentary is about, but if you want to cite it you need to establish that it was published/aired by somebody with a reputation for editorial control and fact checking). [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 20:44, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :[[Special:Diff/1259388389|Done]]. I can't add much more because a) the ''Heraldo'' piece is [[paywalled]] and the preview doesn't say much more about [[Rafael Escuredo]]'s role and actions in the negotiations for the [[kidnapping of Anabel Segura]] and b) as @[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] said, information needs to be supported by {{tq|somebody with a reputation for editorial control and fact checking}}, and I know nothing about the production of the ''[[900 Days Without Anabel]]'' Netflix docuseries. Cheers, [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 22:03, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :: {{Ping|Rotideypoc41352}} You an request access to paywalled sources at [[WP:RX]]. &lt;span class=&quot;vcard&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;fn&quot;&gt;[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]&lt;/span&gt; (&lt;span class=&quot;nickname&quot;&gt;Pigsonthewing&lt;/span&gt;); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]&lt;/span&gt; 14:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == does a COI still exist if you haven't had contact with someone for 25 years? == I'm thinking about improving the article of someone for whom I worked 25 years ago. Is that still a COI, or is the COI no longer significant, since it was decades ago? Thanks, [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 20:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :I haven't had contact with my dead grandfather for longer than that, and I'd still have a COI. :On the other hand, I'm thinking of the supervisor I had 25 years ago, and if he was clearly notable, I believe I could write a decent neutral article. I think you should be fine, just remember [[WP:NOTMEMORIAL|Wikipedia is not to be used for memorializing]]. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 20:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::You're right, I worded the question in my heading poorly, as some kinds of COIs clearly continue to exist no matter how much time has passed. I'm not going to memorialize him, just try to improve his article a bit, as it's currently a stub. I believe that I can be neutral, but am trying to figure out whether I need to declare a COI and only post edit requests. [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 21:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::Base what you write on what others have published, rather on what you know. Then there should be less bias introduced by you. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 00:29, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thanks [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]], I do understand that. And thanks to [[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] as well. [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 00:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{u|FactOrOpinion}}, as I see it, the question of a conflict of interest is not a yes-or-no, black-or-white question in most cases of writing new articles or major expansions of existing articles. Instead, it is a continuum. If an editor is motivated to do the work of finding and evaluating and summarizing the reliable sources about a topic that interests them, then it can be said that they have at least a weak or mild conflict of interest about that topic. I was born and raised in Michigan and have lived in California for over 50 years, and have worked on many articles related to those two states. Back in June, my wife and I had a wonderful ten day visit to Alaska and I have since written and expanded several articles about Alaska. My favorite article that I have written about Alaska is [[Wooden halibut hook]], a topic that I had never heard of six months ago but which fascinated me when I saw them in two museums in Alaska. I think that my conflict of interest is mild even though I took two of the photos in that article. When I was a young man, I was a California mountaineer. As a new editor, I wrote a biography of [[Jules Eichorn]], a climber that I took a two week trip with, along with about 15 other climbers in the late 1970s, and I took the photo in the article of him as an older man, 40 years older than me. And now I am older than he was then. I never heard from him again. I suppose I have a conflict of interest but I think that it is minor, because the article includes none of my personal experiences, and instead summarizes the reliable sources that I cited. :::::A major problem occurs when the conflict goes beyond minor or mild, and interferes with the editor's ability to comply with Wikipedia's core content policies. The relevant language in the [[WP:COI]] policy is {{tpq|While editing Wikipedia, an editor's primary role is to further the interests of the encyclopedia. When an external role or relationship could reasonably be said to undermine that primary role, the editor has a conflict of interest similar to how a judge's primary role as an impartial adjudicator would be undermined if they were married to one of the parties. Any external relationship—personal, religious, political, academic, legal, or financial (including holding a cryptocurrency)—can trigger a COI. How close the relationship needs to be before it becomes a concern on Wikipedia is governed by common sense.}} So, we need to use common sense and recognize that &quot;can trigger a COI&quot; is not equivalent to &quot;always triggers a COI&quot;. If an editor can and does write content that is [[WP:V|verifiable]], that avoids [[WP:OR|original research]], and that complies with the [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]], then common sense tells us that the conflict of interest is mild and manageable. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 07:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]], thank you for that elaboration. I always try to abide by WP's PAGs and seek guidance when I need it. I appreciate how much time you and other experienced editors invest in helping people out. [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 15:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Request for Feedback and Assistance in Revising Draft == Dear Expert Team I hope you're doing well. I am reaching out to request your help in improving my draft article, [[Draft:Sarbjit_Singh_Jhinjher]], in light of the recent feedback provided. The reviewer pointed out that the submission does not adhere to the formal tone expected for an encyclopedia article, and I would greatly appreciate your advice on how to rewrite it in a more neutral and encyclopedic format. Additionally, I have been advised to refer to a broader range of independent, reliable, and published sources to strengthen the article. Could you please assist me by reviewing the draft, particularly focusing on: * Ensuring the tone is formal and neutral * Avoiding any &quot;peacock&quot; terms or language that promotes the subject * Suggesting improvements to improve the overall quality and adherence to Wikipedia's standards Your input would be incredibly valuable in helping me align the draft with Wikipedia's guidelines. Thank you in advance for your time and assistance. I look forward to your feedback. Best regards, [[Special:Contributions/49.156.107.234|49.156.107.234]] ([[User talk:49.156.107.234|talk]]) 20:44, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :A sample (the section &quot;Village Leadership&quot;): {{Blue|From 2013 to 2018, Jhinjer served as}} [Why &quot;served as&quot; rather than plain &quot;was&quot;?] {{Blue|the '''Sarpanch'''}} [There is no reason for this to be boldface.] {{Blue|(village head) of Jhinjran, where he contributed}} [''What'' did he contribute?] {{Blue|to the development of infrastructure}} [Water, electricity, sewerage, phone, wireless LAN, ...?] {{Blue|and improvements}} [What kind(s) of improvements?] {{Blue|in the village’s quality of life.}} And what is the (reliable and disinterested) source for all of this? -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 22:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::A different view: {{tpq|served as}} is correct and normal and commonplace English usage. In American English (at least), it is the standard way to refer to a person holding a political office, a judgeship, or a military rank. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 22:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == How is an articles importance in a Wikiproject debated? == Recently, I added articles such as [[Colossal Biosciences]], [[Arava Institute for Environmental Studies|Arava Institute for Enviromental Studies]], [[Northern white rhinoceros]], [[Ivory-billed woodpecker]], [[Vaquita]], and [[Judean date palm]] to the extinction wikiproject, as the first two are organisations known for de-extinction, the three animals are glaring examples of pure manmade declines and functional extinctions in modern times, and the date tree is the first known successful de-extinction. How do these pages have their importance rated by a Wikiproject? All of them should be given high or mid-importance due to the reasons that I stated above. [[User:Edelgardvonhresvelg|Edelgardvonhresvelg]] ([[User talk:Edelgardvonhresvelg|talk]]) 23:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :I believe we used to have an actual scale for determining the importance, but in my experience it is usually very much &quot;in the eye of the beholder&quot;, in other words, one persons' opinion. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::How do I rate their importance then? I doubt that many are interested in any of the subjects besides Colossal Biosciences due to them constantly making headlines, being endorsed by various governments, educational institutions, and celebrities. Judean date palm is also a plant, which doesn't gain much attention as a de-extinct animal as [[Pyrenean ibex|bucardo]] or soon to be de-extinct such as the [[Revival of the woolly mammoth|woolly mammoth]] or [[thylacine]]. [[User:Edelgardvonhresvelg|Edelgardvonhresvelg]] ([[User talk:Edelgardvonhresvelg|talk]]) 02:48, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Some wikiprojects have specific criteria for rating importance, such as [[WP:DOGS]] on their Assessment page, but no such criteria seem to be established for WikiProject Extinction, other than major extinction events are &quot;top&quot; importance. I would rate the importance of the mentioned articles based on how much literature on the subject appears to exist at a glance, or as Just Step Sideways stated above, however important you believe them to be. If it ends up being controversial, then the resulting discussion can start to establish what each level of importance should be applied to. [[User:Reconrabbit|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#6BAD2D&quot;&gt;Recon&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Reconrabbit|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#2F3833&quot;&gt;rabbit&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::How do I give the articles importance on the Wikiproject? I doubt that the articles would be controversial for mid to high imporance. [[User:Edelgardvonhresvelg|Edelgardvonhresvelg]] ([[User talk:Edelgardvonhresvelg|talk]]) 16:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC) {| class = &quot;wikitable&quot; style = &quot;float:right; margin-left:15px&quot; |- |'''Need'''||The article is of priority or importance, regardless of its quality |- |{{Top-Class}}||Subject is a must-have for a print encyclopedia |- |{{High-Class}}||Subject contributes a depth of knowledge |- |{{Mid-Class}}||Subject fills in more minor details |- |{{Low-Class}}||Subject is mainly of specialist interest. |- |{{Bottom-Class}}||(Optional) Subject has no real significance to the project. |- |align=center|'''No'''||(Optional) Subject is a disambiguation or redirect page, residing in article space. |} I foiund this old thing, it's probably not binding on anyone but gives some idea of how it is supposed to work. [[User:Just Step Sideways|Just Step Sideways]] [[User talk:Just Step Sideways|&lt;sup&gt;from this world ..... today&lt;/sup&gt;]] 00:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :I will add that most readers or editors do not bother looking at the importance. So it is not worthwhile to get too stressed about the rating. For top or high importance, it may reault in the article being selected in a subset publication for some purpose. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 01:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Unfortunately the table is of little help. What are the criteria for &quot;must-have&quot;, &quot;minor&quot;, etc? Importance could be defined in terms of number of accesses -- via which, of course, [[Taylor Swift]] would be of vastly more importance than, say, [[Universe]]. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 01:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Draft:Prince and Family == Hi, Would you please approve this page [[Draft:Prince and Family]]. Prince and Family is upcoming malayalam film. Thank you. [[User:FrancisMathew2255|FrancisMathew2255]] ([[User talk:FrancisMathew2255|talk]]) 09:43, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:FrancisMathew2255|FrancisMathew2255]] the draft is currently pending review. Please be patient, as there are hundreds of other drafts in the queue. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 09:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Sure. ::Thank you for your response. [[User:FrancisMathew2255|FrancisMathew2255]] ([[User talk:FrancisMathew2255|talk]]) 10:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Help with page publication == Hello, Can someone please help me with the following page which was declined twice? Italian Dopolavoro Ferroviario (DLF) [[Draft:Italian Dopolavoro Ferroviario]] Thank you, Simone [[User:Smnczz|Smnczz]] ([[User talk:Smnczz|talk]]) 10:44, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:Smnczz|Smnczz]], and welcome to the Teahouse. Please read the links in the decline notice. In summary: your citations are not properly formatted (bare URL's) which makes them hard to evaluate (see [[WP:REFB]]). But &quot;Gazzetta Officiale&quot; is almost certainly a [[WP:primary source|primary source]], and does not contribute to establishing [[WP:notability|notability]]. You need most of your citations to meet the triple criteria in [[WP:42]]. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 11:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Can Chatgpt/similar GPT be fused with Wikipedia? Will help in solving instant doubts == I am an active user of Wikipedia and this question recently struck my mind. I wanted to convey this idea to Wikipedia community to bring up a creative update. Good work folk! Keep it up! [[Special:Contributions/117.250.64.129|117.250.64.129]] ([[User talk:117.250.64.129|talk]]) 10:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, IP user. Generally, no. See [[WP:CHATGPT]] for more detail. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 11:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :If the community was interested in having ChatGPT write Wikipedia, then the community would have likely already made bots that do so. We are interested in the sum of human knowledge, not the sum of what knowledge LLMs predict humans to possess. [[User:CoffeeCrumbs|CoffeeCrumbs]] ([[User talk:CoffeeCrumbs|talk]]) 12:39, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Note that AI is notoriously unreliable. They make stuff up. See [[Hallucination (artificial intelligence)]]. [[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]]|[[User talk:Shantavira|&lt;sup&gt;feed me&lt;/sup&gt;]] 14:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::I didn't understand your question exactly, but ChatGPT has entire Wikipedia (only mainspace) in its datasets. It also may have other sections/namespaces in its datasets. Gemini accesses Wikipedia in real-time. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 16:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Academic Notability == Before I ([[User:RomanVilgut]]) post my question, I would like to be transparent about my background. I am a communications officer at the University of Graz, the second largest university in Austria with over 400 years of academic history (~28,000 students, ~3,200 academic staff including teaching). My role is not primarily editorial, it is not my main job to edit Wikipedia. However, now that I have a user, I have been asked several times to help with Wikipedia. I have therefore marked myself as a 'paid editor' in order to demonstrate my commitment to maintaining the highest standards of transparency within the Wiki community. One of our professors in the field of nano-robotics and nano-chemistry has requested my assistance in translating his Wikipedia page on the German Wikipedia ([[:de:Leonhard Grill]]) to the English Wikipedia. He is a full professor with an impressive publication record in top-tier scientific journals, including Nature and Science. He has also received numerous accolades, particularly the ERC Advanced Grant, the most prestigious grant in the European Union. Upon reviewing the notability criteria for the English Wikipedia ([[Wikipedia:Notability (academics)]]), I came to the conclusion that Criteria 1 a, d, e and Criteria 5 a, b, c appeared to be met. I therefore proceeded to create the page on the English Wikipedia [[Leonhard Grill]]. Some days later, a user added a maintenance template to the page, offering constructive feedback on the notability and citations. I added some important citations and initiated a dialogue with the user on the talk page, [[Talk:Leonhard Grill]]. The user set the bar quite high in terms of notability and told me about his extensive experience in reviewing academic pages. I then asked which criteria he felt had not been met, and the response I received made me a little cautious. I then checked the user page, where I discovered that he had revealed his true identity (which I also did). I believe he is a researcher in nano-robotics, emeritus. It would seem that he is engaged in the same scientific field as Leonhard Grill. I am also somewhat sceptical because when I look at the pages of faculty members at his university, I notice that those very high standards he is using are not always met. I feel he may be applying different standards. However, I felt that users who are not familiar with me might perceive a potential conflict of interest on my part (which I personally do not see), and so I decided to step away from the discussion. I would therefore be grateful if the wider Wikipedia community could take a look at the page and the talk. I would be grateful for any support from experienced wiki users who might conclude that the notability is high enough. I would also appreciate any tips and tricks they could share, as well as guidance on which sources should be added. We already have plenty of sources, but I would prefer not to overwhelm the reference page. But if experienced wiki users conclude that the notability is not high enough, I will respect their decision and not challenge the deletion of the page. &lt;nowiki&gt;*&lt;/nowiki&gt;Disclaimer: Since I am not a native english speaker, I used the DeepL Write to improve this text* [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 11:15, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :What is lacking are references to what people have published about him. In English Wikipedia, describing his research, with references to his sci poblications, adds nothing to establishing Wikipedia-notability. OK to list minor awards, but again, not estabilshing notability. Delete the Weblinks section for same reason. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 11:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you very much. So to conclude for me. It makes no sence to cite all his papers, that proof in what groups he worked? Cited should be works, that cite his work? ::What still puzzles me: How can a habilitation paper on the FU Berlin be no proof for habilitation (plus the fact, that he is a faculty member - I found the official journal of his appointment and cited it)? What other proof would be acceptable, a scan of the document? [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 12:46, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::2nd Question. For undergrad and Phd there is a &quot;citation needed&quot;. Both Papers are avaiable as hard copy in the library of the university of Graz. Is the link to the entry in the library-catalogue accepted as citation? [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 12:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] Regarding [[WP:NACADEMIC|notability]], we only require ''one'' of the listed criteria to be met. In my opinion, his award of the [[Feynman Prize in Nanotechnology]] is sufficient to pass criterion #2. The article can cite self-published sources (e.g. your website) for non-controversial material: see the guidance at [[WP:ABOUTSELF]] and of course can give a limited account of Grill's research. However, the biography should mainly cover his background, education and personal life. The article should not aim to be a cv but can mention highly cited papers, for example. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::As it has been mentioned that the article will be, at least partly, be translated from an article on DE-Wikipedia, [[Help:Translation]] might be of some interest...attribution etc. [[User:Lectonar|Lectonar]] ([[User talk:Lectonar|talk]]) 13:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::Per comment from Mike Turnbull, common to have a section titled Selected works, to include perhaps 5-7 publications. For academics, the university they work at often has a biographical sketch for faculty members, with information such as education; that would serve as a citation. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 17:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::I will look in the Translation-Help and try to make a selected works - section. As of citation I can use this [https://nano-lab.uni-graz.at/en/about-us/leonhard-grill/ Leonhard Grill, Professor an der Universität Graz - nano-lab.uni-graz.at] - and as mentioned, we have his graduation-papers in our library-catalogue (in hardcopy, as it was customary in the 1990ies) [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 07:53, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Tank you! We never planned a cv, just a short biography with background [[User:RomanVilgut|RomanVilgut]] ([[User talk:RomanVilgut|talk]]) 07:51, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Reliable sources for a topic in software development == It's extremely hard if not impossible to find any source other than primary sources or a topic in software development. So I added a few sources that are not &quot;reliable&quot; just to satisfy secondary sources rule. What exactly counts as a reliable source and is it possible to make a secondary source rule exception for topics are related to software development since an unbiased view is less of concern due to rational nature of software development compared to things like politics and past events. Here is my draft [[Draft:Kestrel Web Server]] [[Special:Contributions/78.190.51.205|78.190.51.205]] ([[User talk:78.190.51.205|talk]]) 14:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. Wikipedia isn't a place to just tell about something- it's a place to summarize what independent [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] with significant coverage have chosen on their own to say about something, showing how it meets the [[WP:N|special Wikipedia definition of notability]]. If a topic isn't written about by independent reliable sources, it can't be on Wikipedia. There are other websites with less stringent requirements where people can just tell about something. :You can certainly work to obtain [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] for a carve-out in policy for software development, but it would be a long, difficult process- and I don't think it would work, as it would lead to every topic seeking a carve-out, rendering policies meaningless. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 14:27, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::But this policy has been created to reduce amount of bias right? ::While I do agree, I think software development should get a exception due to sometimes only source being the project itself. ::And when I try to seek for &quot;secondary&quot; sources they are not reliable, would a random blog post be reliable? I bet It's not. [[Special:Contributions/78.190.51.205|78.190.51.205]] ([[User talk:78.190.51.205|talk]]) 14:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::No. [[Wikipedia:GOLDENRULE]] is fundamental to how (and why) Wikipedia works. [[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]]|[[User talk:Shantavira|&lt;sup&gt;feed me&lt;/sup&gt;]] 14:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == How to add the cookies/brownies/tea/cofee/others == Hi all, I remember seeing the proper syntax and usage for all of the mentioned items above, but sometimes struggle remembering things. I would greatly appreciate any help! 15:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Luke Elaine Burke|Luke Elaine Burke]] ([[User talk:Luke Elaine Burke|talk]]) 15:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Luke Elaine Burke|Luke Elaine Burke]] Welcome to the Teahouse. These things are most easily added via templates. Take a look at {{tl|Cookies}} and you can probably guess the others. They are all in [[:Category:Food WikiLove templates]]. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 15:21, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you Micheal, have a great day! ::15:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Luke Elaine Burke|Luke Elaine Burke]] ([[User talk:Luke Elaine Burke|talk]]) 15:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC) : {{Ping|Luke Elaine Burke}}Welcome to the teahouse. These are WikiLoves, and can be seen with a symbol of a heart on user talk pages (might change depending on your theme set). Thanks, [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 15:43, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you, your photography is incredible! ::[[User:Luke Elaine Burke|Luke Elaine Burke]] ([[User talk:Luke Elaine Burke|talk]]) 15:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == What are user talk pages really for? == I know what article talk pages are for, but what about user talk pages? So far, mine only has trout notifications and some notifications from a bot who harasses me every time one of my Teahouse threads gets archived. I had one person stop by and leave a message about an article I was working on at the time as well. Are user talk pages specifically for Wikipedia-related things or can I use mine for more general conversations and small talk with anyone who stops by? I ask because I saw someone else's talk page and they were talking with someone about their favorite character from a book series like it was a normal forum thread. [[User:ApteryxRainWing|ApteryxRainWing]] | [[User talk:ApteryxRainWing|Roar at me]] | [[Special:contribs/User:ApteryxRainWing|My contributions]] 15:28, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :{{Ping|ApteryxRainWing}} User talk pages are normally for delivering messages such as &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Tb}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, or even WikiLoves. They are used as a form of communication, such as alerts from AfC, etc. They can be used for notifications of a revert, warnings, etc. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 15:38, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{re|ApteryxRainWing}} user talk pages are for communication between editors regarding Wikipedia. The communication should generally take place on article's talk page, or concerned/relevant wikiproject, or venue where it can be seen by a larger group of people who might be interested in that discussion/situation. User talk pages are mostly used for notifications, and one-on-one communication. Also, I'm not sure if you know the exact meaning of &quot;harassment&quot;. If you want to stop the bot, there are clear instructions in the message itself. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 16:46, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :::Not for chat, forum threads, jokes, etc. And with a few exceptions, you can archive or delete what you have been sent. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 17:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == Editor change? == I was trying to work on an article the other day when I noticed a difference in how I edited. Previously, I had the visual editor, but instead I now was editing the source of the page itself. I'm pretty limited in my ability with the source code, and is there anyways to revert back to the visual editor? Did I accidentally change something in my settings? [[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] ([[User talk:Therguy10|talk]]) 16:22, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] When you're in the source editor, there's a little pen button on the right, if you click on that, you can select the visual editor. You can also change the URL directly by changing &quot;&amp;action=edit&quot; to &quot;&amp;veaction=edit&quot;. I hope this helps! [[User:Myrealnamm-alt|Myrealnamm&amp;#39;s Alternate Account]] ([[User talk:Myrealnamm-alt|talk]]) 16:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi. If you are on a talk page, VisualEditor does not work. If you are editing an article, just go to the dropdown menu as listed here :[[File:VisualEditor edit tab-en.png|300px|VisualEditor edit tab-en]] :{{pb}}I hope this helps. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 16:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Myrealnamm-alt|Myrealnamm-alt]] @[[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] Thank you! That's exactly what I needed and I really appreciate it! [[User:Therguy10|Therguy10]] ([[User talk:Therguy10|talk]]) 16:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::No problem! I hope you enjoy Wikipedia! [[User:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;Cooldudeseven7&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|&lt;sub&gt;join in on the tea talk&lt;/sub&gt;]] 17:00, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == I translated information from a different language to an article, but the original information is uncited - is this okay? == I translated the information from https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_Institute to add to [[The Interactive Institute]], as the English article is of low quality. The original article has no citations (well it has one, but it is not related to what I copied). Is this acceptable? If anyone wants to add citations to the article, I put some possible places citations could be found on the article's talk page. Thanks, [[User:The Neco-Arc|The Neco-Arc]] ([[User talk:The Neco-Arc|talk]]) 18:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :You more than doubled the length of the English article without adding any references. I do not see why the article should not be nominated for deletion. Are there no refs in the Swedish version that would help verify the English version? [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 18:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Yes, there are no references in the Swedish version that would help verify the English version. The Swedish page only has a reference for a different statement I did not translate. [[User:The Neco-Arc|The Neco-Arc]] ([[User talk:The Neco-Arc|talk]]) 05:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ping|The Neco-Arc}} Thanks for trying to improve the article, but I think it needs sources more than anything else. Wikipedia articles need to be based on [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] that are [[WP:IS|independent]] of the article's subject. You [[Talk:The Interactive Institute#Lack of references|suggested]] https://monoskop.org/Interactive_Institute, but that is a [[WP:UGC|user-generated]] wiki (i.e. unreliable), and the links there are all associated with the Interactive Institute (i.e. not independent). If there are no independent reliable sources that cover the Interactive Institute, the article will be deleted, so expanding it is like [[wikt:rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic|rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic]]. Also, while this is a moot point if the article is deleted, this paragraph [[Special:Diff/1259532546|you added]] has a very [[WP:NOTPROMO|promotional tone]]: {{tqb|The institute creates results by combining art, design and technology. By exploring and integrating these three areas, the institute strives to achieve innovative results that not only develop and question interaction and communication between people and their environment, but also challenge traditional perspectives and ways of thinking.}} Articles are improved by using a [[WP:NPOV|neutral tone]] and sticking to encyclopedic, [[WP:V|verifiable]] facts. [[User:Jlwoodwa|jlwoodwa]] ([[User talk:Jlwoodwa|talk]]) 18:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::Each Wikipedia language has its own standards for neutral-point-of-view content and references, so even if what you added was a translation from the Swedish Wikipedia, the wording (and lack of independent references) cannot exist in English. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 20:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::True, it has a promotional tone. I did not know that that website is a user-generated wiki, and I cannot find any information about it other than that page, other than its website (through wayback machine, as the original website has been merged into another) and a page about a project by the institute, with little information on the institute other than some pictures of its project. As I cannot find any reliable sources on this institute itself, but it is part of RISE, I will redirect it to [[Research Institutes of Sweden]]. Thanks, [[User:The Neco-Arc|The Neco-Arc]] ([[User talk:The Neco-Arc|talk]]) 05:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Bookmarking oft-visited WP sites possible? == I now have a lot of sites I want to visit on occasion, such as my mentor's Talk page, some of the policy and guidance information like conflict of interest, and how to add images. Does Wikipedia have a Bookmark feature, as do Chrome, Safari, and other browsers? [[User:Augnablik|Augnablik]] ([[User talk:Augnablik|talk]]) 19:23, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Augnablik|Augnablik]] To a point, yes, you can add them to your [[WP:W|watchlist]]. :As for stuff that's unlikely to be updated but that you want to keep track of, I, as an Opera GX user, tend to simply have the tabs open in one of my workspaces so I don't have to go rummaging through my regular browser bookmarks. [[User:CommissarDoggo|&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008&quot;&gt;Commissar&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Doggo&lt;/b&gt;]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|&lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff&quot;&gt;Talk?&lt;/sup&gt;]]'' 19:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, @[[User:Augnablik|Augnablik]]. Another possibility is to add a list of links to your favourite pages on your user page (or a user subpage). [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 19:34, 25 November 2024 (UTC) == I want to upload a photo == I found an image that is crucial for illustrating early COVID-19 cases in Wuhan, which is directly relevant to an article on Wikipedia about the origins of the pandemic. What is the rationale that it's legal to upload this image under a fair use claim? The image is copyrighted, but I believe it falls under fair use for educational purposes. Does this justify uploading it? How can I ensure that I meet the requirements for fair use on Wikipedia, and are there any additional considerations or guidelines I should be aware of? The image is located at the following webpage: Worobey, M. (2021). Dissecting the early COVID-19 cases in Wuhan: Elucidating the origin of the pandemic requires understanding of the Wuhan outbreak. Science, 374(6572), 1202–1204. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.abm4454&amp;nbsp;[[User:Lardlegwarmers|Lardlegwarmers]] ([[User talk:Lardlegwarmers|talk]]) 20:47, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi {{u|Lardlegwarmers}}. There's information on this in [[:Wikipedia:Non-free content]] and [[:Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria]]; however, please understand that [[:fair use]] and non-free content use aren't exactly the same thing when it comes to Wikipedia, and Wikipedia's non-free content use policy [[:WP:NFC#Background|has been intentionally set up to be more restrictive than fair use]]. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 21:24, 25 November 2024 (UTC) ::If you're asking about [https://www.science.org/cms/10.1126/science.abm4454/asset/a71068b5-36dc-4cf5-b1ff-5896a3f0ffb0/assets/graphic/science.abm4454-f1.svg this map], then I think you're going to have are time justifying it's non-free use per [[:WP:FREER]] and [[:WP:NFC#CS]]. The map of China itself is almost certainly not eligible for copyright protection per [[:c:COM:CB#Maps and satellite imagery]] because outlines of countries and place names are elements typically considered eligible for copyright protection; so, someone could essentially create their own map if they want. It's the way the data the map's based on is expressed visually that might be eligible for copyright protection, but the same information doesn't necessarily need to be expressed using this particular map or any map at all for Wikipedia's purposes; it could be expressed as plain text, in a [[:Wikipedia:Table]] or in some other form. If this map itself, however, was the subject of sourced critical commentary in reliable sources (either because others thought it to be accurate or perhaps thought it to be inaccurate), then that might be a way to justify its non-free use, but just wanting to show it as a map because it's a map is probably not going to be enough. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 00:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Reverting on mobile == How do I revert an article to a previous edit on mobile, as well as undo an edit? I am on an iPhone. [[User:AlexTheWikipedian|AlexTheWikipedian]] ([[User talk:AlexTheWikipedian|talk]]) 22:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi {{u|AlexTheWikipedian}}. I believe if you scroll all the way down to the bottom of a Wikipedia page while using the mobile Wikipedia site, I'm pretty sure you're given the option to view the page in &quot;Desktop mode&quot;. If you click this, you should see the page as you would see it using the regular Wikipedia set up, and be able to edit just like you would edit any Wikipedia. Be aware, though, that your mobie service provider might be using an IP proxy that is blocked from making edits per [[:Wikipedia:Open proxies]]; you can view pages fine, but you just can't edit them. So, if you go to desktop mode and still can't edit because the IP address your account is using has been blocked, there might not be much you can do except try [[:Wikipedia:IP block exemption]]. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 01:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == U.S. govt sources not credible for bio of U.S. diplomat? == Hi folks, I’ve been working on a bio page for a prominent international official, [[Draft:Mary Beth Goodman|draft here]]. The sources myself and other drafters have cited to document her career history are mostly from the U.S. government (the White House, the Congress, the Department of State) or from auxiliary roles she held in international bodies as a diplomat. Existing wiki bio pages for U.S. officials who have held the same position(s) or even more junior ones use the same types of sources. I’ve linked to examples of those bio pages in the draft’s talk page. However, I’m stuck. Several editors have rejected the draft bio because the sources aren’t sufficiently independent or credible, and they’ve suggested newspapers as alternative sources. Unfortunately news coverage of most diplomats’ careers doesn’t exist, so beyond what’s included in the media section of her page, I haven’t found sources such as the type they have recommended. How do I reconcile the reality of the sourcing (which has seemed legitimate enough to substantiate other bio pages) with the recommendations from editors? I’d appreciate advice re: what makes the existing sources in the draft not credible, and overall, what kinds of additional sources are needed to verify a living person’s bio when the majority of their career is documented by government and government-adjacent sources. Thanks in advance for the guidance. 🙏🙏 This is my first attempt at major drafting and it seems this is a bigger project than I had intended. [[User:Lfdigests|Lfdigests]] ([[User talk:Lfdigests|talk]]) 23:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :You need more articles from reliable sources to confirm notability. See [[WP: NOTABILITY]]. [[User:Ahri Boy|Ahri Boy]] ([[User talk:Ahri Boy|talk]]) 00:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :[[User:Lfdigests|Lfdigests]], I'm going to leave a message for one of the reviewers on the Talk page for your draft. I'm not going to have a lot of time during the next week, but will try to check back. I would think that she should be presumed notable by virtue of her high position in the OECD, though I could be wrong about that (and I'll ask about that on the Talk page). I don't have time to dig in on the references, etc., but I suggest that you look through the &quot;Publications, remarks, and media&quot; section (which you'll need to trim) and see if some of those confirm her notability (per WP's definition of [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]]), in which case you can use them as references. For example, I would think that the 4 minute NPR interview with her about the US's global COVID response is that sort of reference (the interview isn't about her, but she's seen as an expert, and NPR is an independent reliable source). &lt;small&gt;Edited to add: As I think about this more, I'm less certain that that helps establish her notability, since it's not significant coverage of ''her'', only significant coverage of the US international COVID response; I've asked SafariScribe about that on the Draft Talk page.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:FactOrOpinion|FactOrOpinion]] ([[User talk:FactOrOpinion|talk]]) 02:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Automatic search for red links == Hello ! Anybody can say me if there are a way for an automatic search for red links ? When I see an article with red links. If there are articles about the topic available in another language than English. &lt;br /&gt; I create an interlanguage link. I'm unable to translate into English because I'm not a native speaker of this language and my translations could be too literal. &lt;br /&gt; I can translate from English into French but not the reverse. Therefore , create an interlanguage link is a good beginning but I don't know if we can search these links with internal search engine of Wikipedia. [[User:Anatole-berthe|Anatole-berthe]] ([[User talk:Anatole-berthe|talk]]) 23:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC) :You might ask any MediaWiki dev about your idea. [[User:Ahri Boy|Ahri Boy]] ([[User talk:Ahri Boy|talk]]) 00:01, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thanks for your answer ! &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; ::I don't know where to find a developper. ::I don't ever known where can I look to find one of them. ::Can you help me ? [[User:Anatole-berthe|Anatole-berthe]] ([[User talk:Anatole-berthe|talk]]) 00:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::See [[mw:Project:Support desk]]. [[User:Ahri Boy|Ahri Boy]] ([[User talk:Ahri Boy|talk]]) 00:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thanks you ! [[User:Anatole-berthe|Anatole-berthe]] ([[User talk:Anatole-berthe|talk]]) 02:23, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Anatole-berthe}} You could try this in {{yourjs}} to search Wikidata for the page name you are on, also if it's a red link: :::::&lt;syntaxhighlight lang=&quot;javascript&quot;&gt; mw.loader.using(['mediawiki.util'], function () { mw.util.addPortletLink( 'p-tb', '//www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=' + encodeURIComponent( mw.config.get('wgPageName') ), 'Wikidata search', 't-wikidatasearch', 'Search the page name in Wikidata', null, '#t-wikibase' ); }); &lt;/syntaxhighlight&gt; :::::It may not find other spellings and scripts. On [[Igor Artemov]] it gives [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Igor_Artemov Wikidata search] which finds {{Q|Q4070423}}. On [[Alexander Saliy]] it gives [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Alexander_Saliy Wikidata search] which doesn't find {{Q|Q16335510}}. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 02:24, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If I understood rightly. I create a page in my user's subpage '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js&quot;'''. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::Then , I can create a subpage inside '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js&quot;&quot;''' and for example I name it '''&quot;Finders&quot;'''. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::In '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js/Finders&quot;''' I can create a subpage named '''&quot;redlinkfinder.js&quot;'''. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::When I'll go to '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js/ScriptsJS/redlinkfinder.js&quot;'''. I'll be able to use the script if I copy and paste the code there. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::I'm not certain to understand if the script can be in the subpage of a subpage. ::::I prefer to organise my '''&quot;Anatole-berthe/common.js&quot;'''. with subpages for a better organisation. ::::&lt;br /&gt; ::::I say you thanks because even if this script have the limits you exposed. It's better than nothing. [[User:Anatole-berthe|Anatole-berthe]] ([[User talk:Anatole-berthe|talk]]) 02:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Combine Blank Page with Draft Page == &lt;pre&gt; [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hi, and thank you for [[Special:Contributions/Teahouse|your contributions]] to Wikipedia. It appears that you tried to give [[:Draft:Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal]] a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into [[:Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal]]. This is known as a &quot;[[Wikipedia:History merging|cut-and-paste move]]&quot;, and it is undesirable because it splits the [[Help:Page history|page history]], which is [[Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia|legally required for attribution]]. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be ''moved'' to a new title together with their edit history. In most cases for registered users, once your account is [[Wikipedia:User access levels#Autoconfirmed and confirmed users|four days old and has ten edits]], you should be able to move an article yourself using the [[Wikipedia:Moving a page|&quot;Move&quot; tab]] at the top of the page (the tab may be [[:File:Vector hidden move button.png|hidden in a dropdown menu]] for you). This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect]] from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested moves]] to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at [[Wikipedia:Requests for history merge]]. Thank you. &lt;!-- Template:uw-c&amp;pmove --&gt; &lt;/pre&gt; [[User:KaabiiRamen|KaabiiRamen]] ([[User talk:KaabiiRamen|talk]]) 02:18, 26 November 2024 (UTC) : Hi {{u|KaabiiRamen}}. Do you have a question about how to use [[:Template:uw-c&amp;pmove]]? Do you have a question as to why [[:WP:HISTMERGE|copy and paste page moves]] are generally not recommended? Do you have a question about [[:Draft:Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal]] or {{no redirect|Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal}}? It will be easier for others to try and help you if you can clarify why you started this discussion. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 02:33, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Hello! I created the Draft page but then realized a page for it already existed that all it did was redirect. So i thought the best course of action would to move the draft data to the existing article. But it recommended tranferring which I can't do because the page already exists. So i was hoping to add the draft data to the existing article. [[User:KaabiiRamen|KaabiiRamen]] ([[User talk:KaabiiRamen|talk]]) 03:12, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::Thank you for clarifying {{u|KaabiiRamen}}. Given that the draft you want to move has already been declined once by an AfC reviewer, it's probably not a good idea for you to try to do so yourself even though it might be technically possible for you to do. Moving the page yourself at this point could lead to it being nominated for deletion if another user shares the AfC reviewer's concerns about the draft. If you're not sure what those concerns are or how to address them, you could ask the AfC reviewer who declined the draft for clarification, or you could ask for help at [[:WP:AFCHELP]]. For what it's worth, there's no limit on the number of times a draft can be submitted for AfC review as long as the same declined version doesn't keep being resubmitted over and over again. Moreover, if an AfC reviewer approves the draft, they will take care of all the cleanup associated with moving the page. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 04:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::Hi again KaabiiRamen. Given the comment just added to the draft's page by {{u|Anachronist}}, I definitely don't recommend you try to move the draft to the mainspace, but instead try to look for better sources to help establish the subject's Wikipedia notability per [[:WP:NSOFTWARE]]. Moving the draft to the mainspace yourself almost will certainly, at the very least, lead to it being [[:WP:DRAFTIFY|draftified]] but could also lead to the article being [[:WP:AFD|nominated for deletion]]. If you're having a hard time finding appropriate sources yourself, you could try asking for help at [[:WT:VG]]. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 05:26, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ==[[Markus Paterson]]== I noticed he is in digital romantic comedy series on YouTube and he has a small role maybe a guest role. I want to add this on his filmography but the only source i can find is the full episode on YouTube. What can I do if he officially appeared but there are no other sources regarding this. What can I do? [[Special:Contributions/122.55.235.127|122.55.235.127]] ([[User talk:122.55.235.127|talk]]) 03:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :If the actual owner of the show published it on their own YouTube channel, then you could consider it an 'official' primary source and cite it. If it's just a video that some random youtuber uploaded, then you can't cite it. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 04:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ec}} Hi IP 122.55.235.127. If there are no potential copyright violation issues per [[:WP:YOUTUBE]] and [[:WP:COPYLINK]], you can cite YouTube as the source. You can use a [[:WP:CT|citation template]] like [[:Template:Cite serial]] or [[:Template:Cite episode]] for that if you want and use the YouTube url for the {{para|url}} parameter. If there's a problem linking to YouTube, you can still cite the series or episode itself without providing a link by just leaving the {{para|url}} blank. [[:WP:OFFLINE|Wikipedia doesn't require sources cited be available online]], but it does require that they be [[:WP:RS|reliable]] and [[:WP:V|verifiable]], and offline sources are fine as long as you provide sufficient information about the source being cited. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 04:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Nomination of Malik Jamroz Khan for deletion == Good Morning I created this page regarding a know figure of our small area, who also happens to be my great grand father. The article contained only his bio and achievements made during his life time. It was created more than a decade ago. There was nothing controversial since it only had the bio of a known person with zero material objectionable to anybody. I know now been informed that the article has been ' nominated for deletion'. One wonders how can that be?? How can a non-controversial person, passed away in 1964, with few words written on his bio can be nominated for deletion???? [[User:Mujeebkanju1|Mujeebkanju1]] ([[User talk:Mujeebkanju1|talk]]) 04:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Being controversial isn't why articles are nominated for deletion nor is being harmless a reason to keep an article. Articles are nominated for deletion when they don't meet our standards for notability. Many older articles fell through the cracks and nobody got around to nominating them for deletion; there are nearly seven million articles here. The editors who discussed it all concluded that it was complete missing reliable, independent sources about Khan and that no improvements had been made to remedy the situation for 15 years. Can you provide three good sources that are primarily ''about'' Khan and that are both reliable and independent? If so, you can always try and write a new, compliant article and submit it to Articles for Creation. [[User:CoffeeCrumbs|CoffeeCrumbs]] ([[User talk:CoffeeCrumbs|talk]]) 05:09, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi, and welcome to Wikipedia, however, I think you may be operating under misperceptions of how our [[WP:deletion policy|deletion policy]] works. We [[WP:NOTCENSORED|do not]] delete articles because they are &quot;controversial.&quot; In your case, the article was deleted because it was found that Malik Jamroz Khan was not sufficiently [[WP:NPERSON|notable]] for inclusion in Wikipedia. For notability, [[WP:42|there must be significant coverage of the subject in independent, reliable, secondary sources]], which was not the case for this article. [[User:JJPMaster|JJP]]&lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:JJPMaster|Mas]]&lt;sub&gt;[[Special:Contributions/JJPMaster|ter]]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt; ([[She (pronoun)|she]]/[[Singular they|they]]) 05:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Hi! I tried to nominate the article for deletion. Never done that, not sure if I did it right. == Hi! I tried to nominate the article. Google said to place the code, I tried. Let me know if that is the right way to do it. Thank you, guys. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earmilk&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/172.115.16.132|172.115.16.132]] ([[User talk:172.115.16.132|talk]]) 05:30, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hi 172.115.16.132, you have to &quot;[[WP:subst|subst]]&quot; the template, so it should start like this: &lt;nowiki&gt;{{subst:Proposed deletion&lt;/nowiki&gt; [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 05:35, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::I did, but nothing changed. Can you take a look? [[Special:Contributions/172.115.16.132|172.115.16.132]] ([[User talk:172.115.16.132|talk]]) 05:37, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::An administrator named {{u|Queen of Hearts}} fixed the template's syntax; however, there's a difference between [[:WP:PROD|proposing an article for deletion]] (what you did) and [[:WP:AFD|nominating an article for deletion]]. Anyone may [[:WP:DEPROD]] the article (i.e. remove the proposed deletion template you added) for any reason or no reason at all; if that happens, don't re-add the template because an article can only be proposed for deletion once. If, at that point, you still feel the article should be deleted, you will need to start a regular AfD discussion and explain why. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 06:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{user|Queen of Hearts}} fixed the template, but I've contested the PROD for reasons given in my [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Earmilk&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259632598 edit summary]. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 06:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::&lt;nowiki&gt;I apologize. I still cannot understand how it is done. I do not understand where to add this {{&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[Template:Afd|subst:afd]]&lt;nowiki&gt;|Weather in London}}, and how to create the discussion.&lt;/nowiki&gt; [[Special:Contributions/2600:382:1153:E2F8:C09A:943E:E69E:6064|2600:382:1153:E2F8:C09A:943E:E69E:6064]] ([[User talk:2600:382:1153:E2F8:C09A:943E:E69E:6064|talk]]) 07:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Looks like you [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Earmilk|figured it out]]? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 08:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::yes, I am sorry for many repeated edits. I could not understand the instructions. [[User:Moondust534|Moondust534]] ([[User talk:Moondust534|talk]]) 08:05, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::No worries - those instructions are indeed a bit too complicated for beginners. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 08:09, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == [[Arturo Muñoz (intelligence)]] == Can anyone support another editor with [[Arturo Muñoz (intelligence)]]? The subject of the article, {{User|Arturo Guillermo Munoz}}, is not happy about the hyperbole in the article. There is also a lot of unsourced information. I started stripping it down but realised there wouldn't be a lot left, and his career is not something I'd have the expertise to find new references about. The user suggests that maybe there shouldn't be an article on him at all; I'm not able to judge notability in this topic area. Many thanks, [[User:Tacyarg|Tacyarg]] ([[User talk:Tacyarg|talk]]) 07:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == touch n go == i want mt statement but im already lost my account [[Special:Contributions/2001:D08:1420:7E23:90D1:BDA0:CFD8:F57E|2001:D08:1420:7E23:90D1:BDA0:CFD8:F57E]] ([[User talk:2001:D08:1420:7E23:90D1:BDA0:CFD8:F57E|talk]]) 09:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :Hello, it is unclear what question you are asking. Please rephrase? &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;&quot;&gt;'''[[User:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;qcne&lt;/span&gt;]]''' &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Qcne|&lt;span style=&quot;color: GhostWhite&quot;&gt;(talk)&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:02, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :{{welcometea}} If this is about the Malaysian Touch 'n Go card, we cannot help you. —[[User:Tenryuu|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#556B2F&quot;&gt;Tenryuu&amp;nbsp;🐲&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;(&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&amp;nbsp;•&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&amp;nbsp;) 10:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC) == Validity of an Wikipedia:Notability § Stand-alone lists article == &lt;s&gt;I would like to consult your views regarding a discussion on [[:tr:Vikipedi:Silinmeye_aday_sayfalar/Aydın'daki_ilköğretim_okulları_listesi|Turkish Wikipedia]] about an article deletion request. I am advocating for it to '''keep''', while the other editor argues for its '''deletion'''. Although Wikipedia in one language does not directly bind another language, I need to ask this because the editor in favor deletion has referenced a rule from English Wikipedia.&lt;/s&gt; To eliminate any confusion, I am crossing out the irrelevant parts. My question is related to the status of the article on English Wikipedia. I'm asking for your views about the article of [[List of public elementary schools in New York City]]. The other editor thinks that [[List of public elementary schools in New York City]]: * the article should be deleted, * or the listed schools should be removed, as they believe the list can only include entries with blue links. (Thinks that blue links indicates notability. However, [[WP:CSC]] explicitly contradicts.) * and cites [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists#LISTTYPES]] dynamic list section. I will explain the position I am advocating for based your views. For now, I would like to know in your opinion schools in NYC article complies with the rules in terms of its list feature and the schools it includes. [[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] ([[User talk:TarantaBabu|talk]]) 10:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]]: {{welcometea}} We can't provide feedback on the policies of other language Wikipedias, even if users decide to cite something from here. The most I can tell you to do is to be familiar with the Turkish Wikipedia's policies and base any argument you have on those. —[[User:Tenryuu|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#556B2F&quot;&gt;Tenryuu&amp;nbsp;🐲&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;(&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&amp;nbsp;•&amp;nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&amp;nbsp;) 10:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::Thank you but I'm not asking for feedbacks on the policies of Turkish Wikipedia. To be precise: [[List of public elementary schools in New York City]] in here whether it is legit article or not. The author thinks otherwise. [[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] ([[User talk:TarantaBabu|talk]]) 10:32, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::Just to clarify, are you asking whether we think the list is notable, because the Turkish version of is undergoinging a deletion discussion? If so, we can't help you with that - every wiki has their own policies and notability guidelines. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 10:47, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Of course but you can skip Turkish part, since I wanted elaborate context of the question. Based on English Wikipedia policies and notability guidelines, is the [[list of public elementary schools in New York City]] valid or not? It is the question of mine. [[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] ([[User talk:TarantaBabu|talk]]) 10:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Per [[WP:NLIST]], yes, it's a valid list. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:monospace&quot;&gt;'''&lt;nowiki&gt;'''[[&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[User:CanonNi]]&lt;nowiki&gt;]]'''&lt;/nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/span&gt; ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 11:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Thank you for your view. I, also, think so. I am still up for other comments. [[User:TarantaBabu|TarantaBabu]] ([[User talk:TarantaBabu|talk]]) 11:39, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:187.190.166.194&diff=1259664521</id> <title>User talk:187.190.166.194</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:187.190.166.194&diff=1259664521"/> <updated>2024-11-26T11:43:14Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing to prevent further vandalism. <hr /> <div> == October 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 16:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt; == November 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:Allthefoxes|Allthefoxes]]. I wanted to let you know that I reverted one of [[Special:Contributions/187.190.166.194|your recent contributions]]—specifically &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=UFC%20311&amp;diff=1259622400 this edit]&lt;/span&gt; to [[:UFC 311]]—because it did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the [[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]] or the [[Wikipedia:Help desk|Help desk]]. Thanks. &lt;!-- Template:Huggle/warn-1 --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --&gt;--[[User:Allthefoxes|allthefoxes]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User_talk:Allthefoxes|Talk]])&lt;/sup&gt; 04:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''1 week''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:43, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Muhammadusman321&diff=1259664388</id> <title>User talk:Muhammadusman321</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Muhammadusman321&diff=1259664388"/> <updated>2024-11-26T11:42:25Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for using Wikipedia for spam purposes. <hr /> <div>== November 2024 == [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please do not add inappropriate [[Wikipedia:External links|external links]] to Wikipedia, as you did to [[:Sales]]. [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#LINK|Wikipedia is not a collection of links]], nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include, but are not limited to, links to personal websites, links to websites with which you are affiliated (whether as a link in article text, or a citation in an article), and links that attract visitors to a website or promote a product. See [[Wikipedia:External links|the external links guideline]] and [[Wikipedia:Spam|spam guideline]] for further explanations. Because Wikipedia uses the [[nofollow]] attribute value, its external links are disregarded by most search engines. If you feel the link should be added to the page, please discuss it on the associated talk page rather than re-adding it. Thank you.[[Category:User talk pages with Uw-spam2 notices|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;!-- Template:uw-spam2 --&gt; [[User:Apparition11|Apparition&lt;sup&gt;11&lt;/sup&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User Talk:Apparition11|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;/&lt;small&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Apparition11|Contribs]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:59, 26 November 2024 (UTC) &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;You have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing for adding [[Wikipedia:Spam|spam]] links. Persistent spammers will have their websites [[Wikipedia:Spam blacklist|blacklisted]] from Wikipedia and potentially penalized by search engines. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;[[Category:Wikipedians who are indefinitely blocked for advertising|{{PAGENAME}}]]&lt;!-- Template:uw-sblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:196.132.74.220&diff=1259664078</id> <title>User talk:196.132.74.220</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:196.132.74.220&diff=1259664078"/> <updated>2024-11-26T11:39:00Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing for persistent vandalism. <hr /> <div> == November 2024 == &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:39, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:72.255.171.225&diff=1259662624</id> <title>User talk:72.255.171.225</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:72.255.171.225&diff=1259662624"/> <updated>2024-11-26T11:22:59Z</updated> <summary type="html">HJ Mitchell: You have been blocked from editing to prevent further vandalism. <hr /> <div> == August 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|left|25px|alt=]] Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a message letting you know that one or more of your recent edits to [[:Improvisational theatre]] have been undone by an automated computer program called [[User:ClueBot NG|ClueBot NG]]. {{clear}} * ClueBot NG makes very few mistakes, but it does happen. 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I wanted to let you know that one or more of [[Special:Contributions/72.255.171.225|your recent contributions]]&amp;#32;to [[:JT]] have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the [[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]] or the [[Wikipedia:Help desk|Help desk]]. Thanks.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --&gt; [[User:Entranced98|Entranced98]] ([[User talk:Entranced98|talk]]) 14:42, 9 September 2024 (UTC) [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Ice-T]]. Your edits appear to constitute [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]] and have been [[Help:Reverting|reverted]]. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. Repeated vandalism may result in the [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|loss of editing privileges]]. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism2 --&gt; [[User:Entranced98|Entranced98]] ([[User talk:Entranced98|talk]]) 14:48, 9 September 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''31 hours''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 14:53, 9 September 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt; &lt;div style=clear: both&gt;&lt;/div&gt;[[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop your [[WP:Disruptive editing|disruptive editing]]. If you continue to [[WP:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia, as you did with &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lisa%20Loeb&amp;diff=1245239467 this edit]&lt;/span&gt; to [[:Lisa Loeb]], you may be [[WP:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. &lt;!-- Template:Huggle/warn-3 --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism3 --&gt;[[User:Ternera|Ternera]] ([[User talk:Ternera|talk]]) 20:58, 11 September 2024 (UTC) == October 2024 == [[File:Information.svg|left|25px|alt=]] Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a message letting you know that one or more of your recent edits to [[:Lisa Loeb]] have been undone by an automated computer program called [[User:ClueBot NG|ClueBot NG]]. {{clear}} * ClueBot NG makes very few mistakes, but it does happen. If you believe the change you made was constructive, please [[User:ClueBot NG#Information About False Positives|read about it]], [{{User:ClueBot NG/Warnings/FPReport|4353090}} report it here], remove this message from your talk page, and then make the edit again. * If you need help, please see the [[Help:Introduction|Introduction to Wikipedia]], and if you can't find what you are looking for there, place {{Tld|Help me}} on [[Special:EditPage/User talk:72.255.171.225|your talk page]] and someone will drop by to help. * The following is the log entry regarding this message: [[Lisa Loeb]] was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lisa+Loeb&amp;diff=1253093203&amp;oldid=1253026376 changed] by [[Special:Contributions/72.255.171.225|72.255.171.225]] [[User:72.255.171.225|(u)]] [[User talk:72.255.171.225|(t)]] ANN scored at 0.940746 on 2024-10-24T09:21:27+00:00 &lt;!-- MySQL ID: 4353090 --&gt; Thank you. &lt;!-- Template:uw-cluebotwarning1 --&gt;&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --&gt; [[User:ClueBot NG|ClueBot NG]] ([[User talk:ClueBot NG|talk]]) 09:21, 24 October 2024 (UTC) &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''1 week''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt; == November 2024 == [[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at [[:BT]]. Your edits appear to constitute [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]] and have been [[Help:Reverting|reverted]]. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. Repeated vandalism may result in the [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|loss of editing privileges]]. Thank you.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vandalism2 --&gt; [[User:Entranced98|Entranced98]] ([[User talk:Entranced98|talk]]) 08:00, 26 November 2024 (UTC) {{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}&lt;!-- Template:Shared IP advice --&gt; &lt;div class=&quot;user-block&quot; style=&quot;padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid var(--border-color-base, #a2ab91); background-color: var(--background-color-warning-subtle, #fef6e7); color:inherit; min-height: 40px&quot;&gt;[[File:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]]&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;Anonymous users from this IP address have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' from editing for a period of '''1 month''' to prevent further [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;margin-left:45px&quot;&gt;If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: &lt;!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. --&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. &amp;nbsp;[[User:HJ Mitchell|&lt;b style=&quot;color: teal; font-family: Tahoma&quot;&gt;HJ&amp;nbsp;Mitchell&lt;/b&gt;]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|&lt;span style=&quot;color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman&quot; title=&quot;(Talk page)&quot;&gt;Penny for your thoughts?&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; : ''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]] and you are an uninvolved editor with a registered account, you may continue to edit by [[Special:Userlogin|logging in]]''.&lt;!-- Template:uw-vblock --&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>HJ Mitchell</name></author> </entry> </feed>