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<?xml version="1.0"?> <feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xml:lang="en"> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=Nikkimaria</id> <title>Wikipedia - User contributions [en]</title> <link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=Nikkimaria"/> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Nikkimaria"/> <updated>2024-11-24T10:55:19Z</updated> <subtitle>User contributions</subtitle> <generator>MediaWiki 1.44.0-wmf.4</generator> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Mu%27tamid_ibn_Abbad&diff=1259248651</id> <title>Al-Mu'tamid ibn Abbad</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Mu%27tamid_ibn_Abbad&diff=1259248651"/> <updated>2024-11-24T04:48:48Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm per WP:ELPEREN <hr /> <div>{{short description|Last ruler of the taifa of Seville in Al-Andalus and poet (1040-1095) (r. c.1069-1091)}} {{expand Arabic|topic=bio|date=April 2019}} {{Infobox royalty | name = Al-Mu'tamid ibn Abbad | image = File:Al Andalus Dirham 602105.jpg | alt = | caption = [[Billon (alloy)|Billon]] ''[[dirham]]'' coin of al-Mu'tamid ibn Abbad | succession = Emir of the [[Taifa of Seville|Seville Taifa]] | reign = 1069–1091 | predecessor = [[Abbad II al-Mu'tadid]] | successor = [[Yusuf ibn Tashfin]] (as [[Almoravid dynasty|Almoravid ruler]]) | birth_date = c. 1040 | birth_place = [[Beja, Portugal|Beja]], [[Al-Andalus]] | death_date = c. 1095 | death_place = [[Aghmat]], [[Almoravid dynasty|Almoravid Empire]] (now [[Morocco]]) | burial_place = [[Aghmat]] | full name = Al-Mu'tamid Muhammad ibn Abbad Ibn Ismail al-Lakhmi &lt;br&gt;([[Arabic]]: المعتمد محمد ابن عباد بن اسماعيل اللخمي) | dynasty = [[Abbadid dynasty|Abbadid]] | father = [[Abbad II al-Mu'tadid]] | mother = | spouse = [[Al-Rumaikiyya]] | issue = [[Buthaina bint al-Mu'tamid ibn Abbad|Buthaina]] (daughter) | issue-type = Children | religion = [[Sunni Islam]] }} [[File:Column of King Al-Mutamid - Jardin de la Galera - Alcazar of Seville.JPG|thumb|Column of Al-Mutamid, {{Interlanguage link multi|Jardines de los Reales Alcázares|es}}, [[Alcázar of Seville]]]] '''Al-Mu'tamid Muhammad ibn Abbad [[Lakhmids|al-Lakhmi]]''' ({{langx|ar| المعتمد محمد ابن عباد بن اسماعيل اللخمي}}; reigned c. 1069–1091, lived 1040&amp;ndash;1095),&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=sOAUAAAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA24|title=Forme and Structure in the Poetry of Al-Muʿtamid Ibn ʿAbbād|last=Scheindlin|first=Raymond P.|date=1974|publisher=Brill Archive|isbn=9789004038905|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; also known as '''Abbad III''', was the third and last ruler of the [[Taifa of Seville]] in [[Al-Andalus]], as well as a renowned poet. He was the final ruler of the Arab [[Abbadid dynasty]] of [[Seville]], before being deposed by the [[Almoravid dynasty|Almoravids]] in 1091. == Early life == When he was 13 years old, Al-Mu'tamid's father bestowed on him the title of [[Emir]] and appointed the Andalusi Arabic poet [[Ibn Ammar (poet)|Ibn Ammar]] as his [[vizier]]. However, Al-Mu'tamid fell strongly under the influence of Ibn Ammar. Al-Mu’tamid's father was wary of Ibn Ammar and the influence he had, ultimately sending him into exile.&lt;ref&gt;Heather Ecker, ''Caliphs and kings: the art and influence of Islamic Spain'', London, 2008&lt;/ref&gt; == Reign == After the death of his father [[Abbad II al-Mu'tadid]] in 1069, Al-Mu'tamid inherited [[Seville]] as [[caliph]]. One of his first acts was to recall Ibn Ammar and to bestow military honours and high political offices on him, including as Governor of Silves and Prime Minister of the government in Seville. This reconciliation would later be rebuked for unknown reasons. More likely the cause of resentment grew from the fact that the Prime Minister had let al-Mu'tamid's son, Prince al-Rasid, be captured and held hostage during a military campaign. He had also declared himself Emir of Murcia without properly acknowledging the rights of his own sovereign. The two men exchanged verses full of bitter criticisms and accusations. Murcia was subsequently lost and Ibn Ammar himself taken hostage. A final attempt to conspire with the young prince against his father proved too much for al-Mu'tamid, who &quot;fell into a rage and hacked him to death with his own hands&quot;. After Ibn Ammar's death, the caliph was reported to have grieved bitterly and gave his former friend a sumptuous funeral.&lt;ref&gt;Levi Provencal, ''L'Espagne musulmane au Xe siècle. Institutions et vie sociale'', Paris, 1932&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=Crompton2006 &gt;{{citation | last=Crompton | first=Louis | year=2006 | title=Homosexuality and civilization | publisher=Harvard University Press | isbn=978-0-674-02233-1 | page=167 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Roscoe1997&quot;&gt;{{cite book|last1=Roscoe|first1=Will|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=6Zw-AAAAQBAJ|title=Islamic Homosexualities: Culture, History, and Literature|last2=Murray|first2=Stephen O.|date=1997|publisher=NYU Press|isbn=9780814769386|pages=151–152|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Large parts of [[al-Andalus]] were under the dominion of al-Mu'tamid: to the west his territory encompassed the land between the lower Guadalquivir and Guadiana, plus the areas around Niebla, Huelva and Saltes. In the south it extended to Morón, Arcos, Ronda, and also Algeciras and Tarifa. The capital, [[Taifa of Córdoba|Córdoba]], was taken in 1070, lost in 1075, and regained in 1078. Nevertheless, the family was still subject to taxation by the King of Castile, to whom they were vassals. The drain of these taxes effectively weakened the kingdom's power: al-Mu'tamid's decision to stop paying these taxes caused King [[Alfonso VI of Castile]] (who had already conquered Toledo in 1085) to besiege Seville. Al-Mu'tamid asked help from the Berber [[Almoravid dynasty|Almoravids]] of Morocco against the Castilian king. Al-Mu'tamid supported the Almoravid ruler [[Yusuf ibn Tashfin]] against Alfonso in the [[Battle of Sagrajas]] in 1086. The Almoravids established themselves at Algeciras and, after defeating the Christians, occupied all the Islamic taifas, including Seville itself in 1091.&lt;ref name=&quot;Reilly1982&quot;&gt;{{cite book|author=Bernard F. Reilly|title=The Kingdom of León-Castilla Under Queen Urraca, 1109-1126|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=2-VRnQAACAAJ|year=1982|publisher=Princeton University Press|isbn=978-0-691-05344-8|pages=17–18}}&lt;/ref&gt; After they ravaged the city, al-Mu'tamid ordered his sons to surrender the royal fortress (the early [[Alcázar of Seville]]) in order to save their lives. When his son, Rashid, had advised him not to call on Yusuf ibn Tashfin, Al-Mu'tamid had rebuffed him: {{blockquote|text=I have no desire to be branded by my descendants as the man who delivered al-Andalus as prey to the [[infidel]]s. I am loath to have my name cursed in every Muslim pulpit. And, for my part, I would rather be a camel-driver in Africa than a swineherd in Castile.&lt;ref&gt;[http://ebooks.ebookmall.com/ebook/225154-ebook.htm ] {{webarchive |url=https://web.archive.org/web/20111001223639/http://ebooks.ebookmall.com/ebook/225154-ebook.htm |date=October 1, 2011 }}&lt;/ref&gt;}} In 1091, Al-Mu'tamid was taken into captivity by the Almoravids and exiled to [[Aghmat]], [[Morocco]], where he died (or was perhaps assassinated) in 1095. His grave is located in the outskirts of Aghmat.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last=Lisan Al Din Ibn Al Khatib|title=Nafadhat al-jirab (the Ashtray of the Socks)|date=c. 1400|page=9}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Legacy == [[File:Túmulo do poeta português (nascido em Beja) Al-Mu’tamid.jpg|thumb|Al-Mu'tamid ibn Abbad's tomb in [[Aghmat]], Morocco.]] Al-Mu'tamid, one of the most eminent men of 11th-century al-Andalus, was highly regarded as a writer of poetry in Arabic.&lt;ref name=&quot;Scheindlin1974&quot;&gt;{{cite book|editor=Raymond P. Scheindlin|title=Forme and Structure in the Poetry of Al-Muʿtamid Ibn ʿAbbād|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=sOAUAAAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA24|year=1974|publisher=Brill Archive|isbn=90-04-03890-6|page=24}}&lt;/ref&gt; He was the father-in-law or father of [[Zaida of Seville]], a concubine of [[Alfonso VI of Castile]], possibly identical to his later wife, Queen Isabella.&lt;ref name=&quot;Antolín2008&quot;&gt;{{cite book|author=Fina Llorca Antolín|title=Las mujeres entre la realidad y la ficción: una mirada feminista a la literatura española|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=2ZoqAQAAIAAJ&amp;q=%22Levi-Provencal%22|year=2008|publisher=Universidad de Granada|isbn=978-84-338-4892-5|page=91|quote=Levi-Provençal ha demostrado que no era hija, sino nuera, del rey de Sevilla, y no se sabe bien si llegó a casarse o no con el rey Alfonso VI. (in English: Levi-Provençal has shown that she was not the daughter but the daughter-in-law of the King of Seville, and it is undetermined whether or not she married King Alfonso VI.}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Barton2015&quot;&gt;{{cite book|author=Simon Barton|title=Conquerors, Brides, and Concubines: Interfaith Relations and Social Power in Medieval Iberia|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=kNouBgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA127|date=16 January 2015|publisher=University of Pennsylvania Press|isbn=978-0-8122-9211-4|page=127}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Al-Andalus|Iberian Muslim]] sources say that Zaida of Seville was the wife of Al-Mu'tamid's son Abu Nasr al-Fath al-Ma'mūn, [[Emir]] of the [[Taifa of Córdoba]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Sánchez-Pagín1991&quot;&gt;Canal Sánchez-Pagín, José María (1991). &quot;Jimena Muñoz, Amiga de Alfonso VI&quot;. Anuario de Estudios Medievales. 21: 11–40&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Lévi-Provençal1934&quot;&gt;Lévi-Provençal, Évariste (1934). &quot;La 'Mora Zaida' femme d'Alfonse VI de Castile et leur fils l'Infant D. Sancho&quot;. Hesperis. 18: 1–8,200–1.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;MontanerFrutos2005&quot;&gt;Montaner Frutos, Alberto (2005). [https://www.academia.edu/9483555/La_mora_Zaida_entre_historia_y_leyenda_con_una_reflexi%C3%B3n_sobre_la_t%C3%A9cnica_historiogr%C3%A1fica_alfons%C3%AD_ La Mora Zaida, entre historia y leyenda (con una reflexión sobre la técnica historiográfica alfonsí)]. Historicist Essays on Hispano-Medieval Narrative. &quot;En conclusion, no hay razones de peso para considerar a Zaida otra cosa que la nuera de Almu'tamid, sin poder precisar su foiliacion.&quot; In English: &quot;In conclusion, there are no compelling reasons to consider Zaida anything other than the daughter-in-law of Almu'tamid, without being able to specify her filiation.&quot; p. 279.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Palencia1988&quot;&gt;Palencia, Clemente (1988). &quot;Historia y leyendas de las mujeres de Alfonso VI&quot;. Estudios sobre Alfonso VI y la reconquista de Toledo. pp. 281–90.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Salazar1993&quot;&gt;Salazar y Acha, Jaime de (1992–1993). &quot;Contribución al estudio del reinado de Alfonso VI de Castilla: algunas aclaraciones sobre su política matrimonial&quot;. Anales de la Real Academia Matritense de Heráldica y Genealogía. 2: 299–336.&lt;/ref&gt; Bishop Pelayo of Oviedo asserted that Zaida was the daughter of ''Abenath'' (Al-Mu'tamid ibn Abbad), a claim repeated by later Iberian [[Christians|Christian]] chroniclers that persisted in written histories for hundreds of years. However, the Islamic chroniclers are considered more reliable,&lt;ref name=&quot;Sánchez-Pagín1991&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;MontanerFrutos2005&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Palencia1988&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Salazar1993&quot; /&gt; and the general consensus among scholars now is that Zaida was Al-Mu'tamid's daughter-in-law.&lt;ref name=&quot;Antolín2008&quot; /&gt; ==See also== * [[Abbasid dynasty]] * [[Buthaina bint al-Mu'tamid ibn Abbad]] ==References== {{reflist}} ==Sources== *{{cite book|title=Al Mutamid Ibn Abbad et son oeuvre poétique : étude des thèmes|first=Ridha |last=Souissi|publisher=Université de Tunis|year=1977}} *{{cite book|title=Form and structure in the poetry of Al-Mutamid Ibn Abbad|first=Raymond P. |last=Scheindlin|location=Leiden|publisher=Brill|year=1974}} *{{cite book |title=Poesia / Al-Mutamid |first=Miguel José |last=Hagerty |location=Barcelona |publisher=Antoni Bosch |year=1979}} *{{cite book |title=Poesías / Al Mutamid Ibn Abbad |first=María Jesús |last=Rubiera Mata |location=Madrid |publisher=Universidad de Sevilla |year=1982}} *{{cite book|title=Chronicle of the Kings of Leon of Pelayo of Oviedo|first=Pelayo |last=de Oviedo}} *{{cite book|title=The Kingdom of Leon-Castilla under King Alfonso VI, 1065-1109 |first= Bernard F. |last=Reilly|publisher=Publisher: Princeton University Press|year=1988}} ==External links== {{commons category|Al-Mu'tamid ibn Abbad}} *[http://www.blackcatpoems.com/a/al_mu_tamid_ibn_abbad.html Al-Mu'tamid ibn Abbad: Poems] *[https://web.archive.org/web/20140308135147/http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/199301/the.poet-king.of.seville.htm The Poet King of Seville] *[https://archive.org/details/poemsofmutamidk00muta The poem of Al-Mu'tamid, in English] {{s-start}} {{s-bef|before=[[Abbad II al-Mu'tadid]]}} {{s-ttl|title=[[Abbadid dynasty|Abbadid]] emir of [[Taifa of Seville|Seville]]|years=1069&amp;ndash;1091}} {{s-non|reason=Deposed by [[Yusuf ibn Tashfin]]&lt;br&gt;([[Almoravid]] dynasty)}} {{s-end}} {{Arabic literature}} {{Sevillian monarchs}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Mu'tamid ibn Abbad}} [[Category:1060s births]] [[Category:1095 deaths]] [[Category:Abbadid dynasty]] [[Category:11th-century Arabic-language poets]] [[Category:11th-century writers from al-Andalus]] [[Category:Poets from al-Andalus]] [[Category:11th-century monarchs in Al-Andalus]] [[Category:11th-century Arab people]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Otis_Delaporte&diff=1259248500</id> <title>Otis Delaporte</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Otis_Delaporte&diff=1259248500"/> <updated>2024-11-24T04:47:33Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: ref <hr /> <div>{{short description|American football and baseball player and coach}} {{Use mdy dates|date=July 2024}} {{Infobox college coach | name = Otis Delaporte | birth_date = {{Birth date|1919|1|6}} | birth_place =[[Luther, Oklahoma]], U.S. | death_date = {{Death date and age|1981|4|1|1919|1|6}} | death_place = | alma_mater = | player_sport1 = Football | player_years2 = 1937–1939 | player_team2 = [[Central Oklahoma Bronchos football|Central Oklahoma]] | player_sport3 = Basketball | player_years4 = 1937–1939 | player_team4 = [[Central Oklahoma Bronchos men's basketball|Central Oklahoma]] | player_sport5 = Baseball | player_years6 = 1937–1938 | player_team6 = [[Central Oklahoma Bronchos baseball|Central Oklahoma]] | player_years7 = 1941 | player_team7 = [[Oklahoma City Indians]] | player_years8 = 1941 | player_team8 = Salina Millers | player_years9 = 1942 | player_team9 = [[Fort Smith Giants]] | player_positions = [[End (gridiron football)|End]] (football)&lt;br&gt;[[Second baseman]], [[third baseman]] (baseball) | coach_sport1 = Football | coach_years2 = 1964–1977 | coach_team2 = [[Southwestern Oklahoma State Bulldogs football|Southwestern Oklahoma State]] | admin_years1 = 1964–1981 | admin_team1 = [[Southwestern Oklahoma State Bulldogs|Southwestern Oklahoma State]] | overall_record = 90–52–2 | bowl_record = | tournament_record = 1–1 ([[NAIA Football National Championship|NAIA D-I playoffs]]) | championships = 4 [[Oklahoma Collegiate Athletic Conference|OCAC]] (1968–1971)&lt;br&gt;2 [[Oklahoma Intercollegiate Conference (1974–1997)|OIC]] (1974, 1977) | awards = | coaching_records = }} '''Otis T. Delaporte''' (January 6, 1919 – April 1, 1981)&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.weremember.com/otis-delaporte/7b8b/memories|title=Otis Delaporte|publisher=We Remember|accessdate=November 23, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; was an [[American football]] and [[baseball]] player and coach.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=delapo001oti|title=Otis Delaporte|publisher=Baseball-Reference|access-date=July 10, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=Wed/&gt; He served as the head football coach at [[Southwestern Oklahoma State University]] for 14 years from 1964 to 1977, compiling a 90–52–2 record and winning six conference titles.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://bronchosports.com/hof.aspx?hof=24|title=Otis Delaporte (1995)|publisher=bronchosports.com|access-date=July 21, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; He also served as the school's athletic director until his death in 1981.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Delaporte Dead|newspaper=The Daily Times|date=April 3, 1981|page=17|url=https://www.newspapers.com/clip/22389429/delaporte_dead/|via=[[Newspapers.com]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Delaporte was married in 1939 to Francis Harryman.&lt;ref name=Wed&gt;{{cite news|title=Delaporte, Broncho Athlete, Is Married|newspaper=The Daily Oklahoman|date=December 19, 1939|page=17|url=https://www.newspapers.com/clip/22389529/delaporte_broncho_athlete_is_married/|via=[[Newspapers.com]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; During his career, Delaporte was inducted into the Southwestern Oklahoma State Hall of Fame (1982), the Oklahoma Coaches Association Hall of Fame (1974),&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Otis Delaporte (1982)|publisher=Southwestern Oklahoma State|accessdate=August 1, 2018|url=http://swosuathletics.com/hof.aspx?hof=64}}&lt;/ref&gt; the National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics Hall of Fame (1981), and the University of Central Oklahoma Athletics Hall of Fame in 1995.&lt;ref name=HOF&gt;{{cite news|title=Otis Delaporte|publisher=University of Central Oklahoma|accessdate=August 1, 2018|url=https://bronchosports.com/hof.aspx?hof=24}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Head coaching record== {{CFB Yearly Record Start | type = coach | team = | conf = | bowl = | poll = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Subhead | name = [[Southwestern Oklahoma State Bulldogs football|Southwestern State Bulldogs]] | conf = [[Oklahoma Collegiate Athletic Conference]] | startyear = 1964 | endyear = 1973 }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | year = [[1964 NAIA football season|1964]] | name = Southwestern State | overall = 5–5–1 | conference = 4–2–1 | confstanding = 3rd | bowloutcome = | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | year = [[1965 NAIA football season|1965]] | name = Southwestern State | overall = 5–5 | conference = 3–4 | confstanding = T–4th | bowloutcome = | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | year = [[1966 NAIA football season|1966]] | name = Southwestern State | overall = 7–3 | conference = 5–2 | confstanding = 2nd | bowloutcome = | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | year = [[1967 NAIA football season|1967]] | name = Southwestern State | overall = 4–6 | conference = 1–6 | confstanding = T–7th | bowloutcome = | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | championship = conference | year = [[1968 NAIA football season|1968]] | name = Southwestern State | overall = 7–4 | conference = 6–1 | confstanding = 1st | bowloutcome = | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | championship = conference | year = [[1969 NAIA football season|1969]] | name = Southwestern State | overall = 9–1 | conference = 6–1 | confstanding = T–1st | bowloutcome = | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | championship = conference | year = [[1970 NAIA Division I football season|1970]] | name = Southwestern State | overall = 7–2–1 | conference = 6–1–1 | confstanding = 1st | bowloutcome = | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | championship = conference | year = [[1971 NAIA Division I football season|1971]] | name = Southwestern State | overall = 8–2 | conference = 7–1 | confstanding = 1st | bowloutcome = | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | year = [[1972 NAIA Division I football season|1972]] | name = Southwestern State | overall = 8–3 | conference = 5–3 | confstanding = T–3rd | bowloutcome = | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | year = [[1973 NAIA Division I football season|1973]] | name = Southwestern State | overall = 3–7 | conference = 2–6 | confstanding = 8th | bowloutcome = | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Subhead | name = [[Southwestern Oklahoma State Bulldogs football|Southwestern Oklahoma State Bulldogs]] | conf = [[Oklahoma Intercollegiate Conference (1974–1997)|Oklahoma Intercollegiate Conference]] | startyear = 1974 | endyear = 1977 }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | championship = conference | year = [[1974 NAIA Division I football season|1974]] | name = Southwestern Oklahoma State | overall = 6–3 | conference = 4–1 | confstanding = 1st | bowloutcome = | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | year = [[1975 NAIA Division I football season|1975]] | name = Southwestern Oklahoma State | overall = 5–5 | conference = 2–3 | confstanding = 3rd | bowloutcome = | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | year = [[1976 NAIA Division I football season|1976]] | name = Southwestern Oklahoma State | overall = 4–7 | conference = 0–4 | confstanding = 5th | bowloutcome = | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Entry | championship = conference | year = [[1977 NAIA Division I football season|1977]] | name = Southwestern Oklahoma State | overall = 11–1 | conference = 4–0 | confstanding = 1st | bowlname = [[NAIA Football National Championship|NAIA Championship]] | bowloutcome = L | ranking = no | ranking2 = no }} {{CFB Yearly Record Subtotal | name = Southwestern Oklahoma State | overall = 90–52–2 | confrecord = 55–35–2 }} {{CFB Yearly Record End | overall = 12–22 | bowls = no | poll = no }}&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://swosuathletics.com/sports/2013/8/17/FB_0817134939.aspx|title=2017 SWSOU Football Fact Guide|date=2017|accessdate=August 1, 2018|publisher=Southwestern Oklahoma State University}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==References== {{Reflist}} ==External links== * {{Baseballstats |mlb= |espn= |br= |fangraphs= |cube= |brm=delapo001oti }} {{Southwestern Oklahoma State Bulldogs football coach navbox}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Delaporte, Otis}} [[Category:1919 births]] [[Category:1981 deaths]] [[Category:American football ends]] [[Category:American men's basketball players]] [[Category:Baseball second basemen]] [[Category:Baseball third basemen]] [[Category:Central Oklahoma Bronchos baseball players]] [[Category:Central Oklahoma Bronchos football players]] [[Category:Central Oklahoma Bronchos men's basketball players]] [[Category:Fort Smith Giants players]] [[Category:Oklahoma City Indians players]] [[Category:Salina Millers players]] [[Category:Southwestern Oklahoma State Bulldogs athletic directors]] [[Category:Southwestern Oklahoma State Bulldogs football coaches]] [[Category:20th-century American sportsmen]] {{1960s-collegefootball-coach-stub}}</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=George_H._Maynard&diff=1259248189</id> <title>George H. Maynard</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=George_H._Maynard&diff=1259248189"/> <updated>2024-11-24T04:44:50Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{short description|American Civil War Medal of Honor recipient}} {{Other people|George Maynard}} {{Infobox military person |name = George Henry Maynard |birth_date = {{Birth date|1836|02|02}} |death_date = {{Death date and age|1927|12|26|1836|02|02}} |birth_place = [[Waltham, Massachusetts]], US |death_place = Waltham, Massachusetts, US |placeofburial = Mount Feake Cemetery [[Waltham, Massachusetts]] |placeofburial_label = Place of burial |image = George H Maynard 1895 public domain USGov.jpg |caption = Maynard in 1895 |nickname = |allegiance = [[United States|United States of America]]&lt;br/&gt;[[Union (American Civil War)|Union]] |branch = [[United States Army]]&lt;br/&gt;[[Union Army]] |serviceyears = |rank = [[Brevet (military)|Brevet]] [[Major (United States)|Major]] |commands = |unit = Company D, [[13th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry Regiment]] |battles = [[American Civil War]] |awards = [[Medal of Honor]] |laterwork = |relations = }} '''George H. Maynard''' (February 2, 1836 - December 26, 1927) was a [[Union Army]] soldier in the [[American Civil War]] who received the U.S. military's highest decoration, the [[Medal of Honor]].&lt;ref name=&quot;acmh&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=Medal of Honor Recipients|website=United States Army Center of Military History|url=http://www.history.army.mil/moh/civilwar_mr.html#MAYNARD|accessdate=7 April 2015|archive-date=11 November 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201111202627/https://history.army.mil/moh/civilwar_mr.html#MAYNARD|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Early life== Maynard was born in [[Waltham, Massachusetts]], on February 2, 1836. He was the son of Warren and Nancy (Holden) Maynard. He attended public schools in Waltham and became a jeweler's apprentice in Boston at the age of 15. He continued in this trade until he enlisted in the [[Union Army]] following the outbreak of the Civil War.&lt;ref name=&quot;Roberts&quot;&gt;History of the Ancient and Honorable Artillery Company of Massachusetts, 1637-1888. Oliver Ayer Roberts. Alfred Mudge and Son. Boston. 1901.&lt;/ref&gt;{{rp|183}} ==Military service== Maynard enlisted as a private in Company D of the [[13th Regiment Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry]] on July 20, 1861. He fought at the [[Battle of Fredericksburg]] in Virginia on December 13, 1862. During the battle he ran through enemy fire to rescue another soldier who had been severely wounded in action. He received the Medal of Honor for this action in 1898. He was mustered out of the 13th Massachusetts on February 17, 1863.&lt;ref name=&quot;Roberts&quot;/&gt;{{rp|183}} On January 17, 1864, he was commissioned a captain in the 82nd United States Colored Infantry. He was breveted to the rank of major on March 15, 1865, for meritorious service during the war. He was honorably mustered out of service on September 10, 1866.&lt;ref name=&quot;Roberts&quot;/&gt;{{rp|184}} ==Later life== Maynard married Harriet Elizabeth of Boston on May 5, 1868. They had seven children, four of whom died in childhood and three who died in their early twenties (and only one of whom survived his mother). He became a member of the [[Ancient and Honorable Artillery Company of Massachusetts]] in 1875. He became the first sergeant of the company in 1879.&lt;ref name=&quot;Roberts&quot;/&gt;{{rp|184}} Maynard was an active mason and became a [[Knight Templar]] in the [[York Rite]]. He was also a companion of the Massachusetts Commandery of the [[Military Order of the Loyal Legion of the United States]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Roberts&quot;/&gt;{{rp|184}} Maynard died in 1927, at the age of 91 having outlived his wife and all his children and was buried in the Mount Feake Cemetery in Waltham.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web | url=http://www.ahac.us.com/newsarchives/2009WalthamHero_Maynard.pdf | title=Waltham Civil War Veteran honored for his heroic actions | work=Waltham News Tribune | date=22 May 2009 | accessdate=19 February 2015}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Medal of Honor citation== ''A wounded and helpless comrade, having been left on the skirmish line, this soldier voluntarily returned to the front under a severe fire and carried the wounded man to a place of safety.''&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web | url=http://www.cmohs.org/recipient-detail/866/maynard-george-h.php | title=George H. Maynard | work=CMOHS Website | accessdate=19 February 2015}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Notes== {{reflist}} ==External links== {{Find a Grave|8201330|work=Claim to Fame: Medal of Honor recipients|accessdate=7 April 2015}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Maynard, George H.}} [[Category:1836 births]] [[Category:1927 deaths]] [[Category:American Civil War recipients of the Medal of Honor]] [[Category:American Freemasons]] [[Category:19th-century American jewellers]] [[Category:People from Waltham, Massachusetts]] [[Category:People of Massachusetts in the American Civil War]] [[Category:Union army officers]] [[Category:United States Army Medal of Honor recipients]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sully_Kothmann&diff=1259247956</id> <title>Sully Kothmann</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sully_Kothmann&diff=1259247956"/> <updated>2024-11-24T04:42:56Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{short description|American pair skater}} [[File:Pairs figure skaters at 1956 Winter Olympics.jpg|thumb|Lucille Ash and Sully Kothmann at the 1956 Winter Olympics in Cortina d'Ampezzo, Italy]] '''Carlos Aneese &quot;Sully&quot; Kothmann''' (February 26, 1933 &amp;ndash; May 5, 1986)&lt;ref name=&quot;Obituary&quot;&gt;{{cite news|title = Sully Kothmann|newspaper = [[The Arizona Republic]]|page = 29|date = May 11, 1986|publisher = [[Gannett]]|url = https://www.newspapers.com/clip/40569917/kothmann_obituary/|via = [[Newspapers.com]]|accessdate = December 14, 2019}} {{free access}}&lt;/ref&gt; was an American [[pair skater]]. After winning the bronze medal with partner [[Kay Servatius]] at the 1953 U.S. National Championships, he teamed with [[Lucille Ash]]. He and Ash were twice silver medalists at the U.S. Championships and finished seventh at the [[1956 Winter Olympics]]. He was born in [[San Antonio, Texas]]. ==Results== (pairs with Ash) {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; |- ! Event ! 1954 ! 1955 ! 1956 |- | [[Winter Olympic Games|Winter Olympics]] || || || align=&quot;center&quot; | 7th |- | [[World Figure Skating Championships|World Championships]] || || align=&quot;center&quot; | 8th || align=&quot;center&quot; | 6th |- | [[United States Figure Skating Championships|U.S. Championships]] || align=&quot;center&quot; bgcolor=&quot;cc9966&quot; | 3rd || align=&quot;center&quot; bgcolor=&quot;silver&quot; | 2nd || align=&quot;center&quot; bgcolor=&quot;silver&quot; | 2nd |} ==References== {{reflist}} *[https://web.archive.org/web/20200418071904/https://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/ko/sully-kothman-1.html Sully Kothmann's profile Sports Reference.com] {{DEFAULTSORT:Kothmann, Sully}} [[Category:1933 births]] [[Category:1986 deaths]] [[Category:American male pair skaters]] [[Category:Olympic figure skaters for the United States]] [[Category:Figure skaters at the 1956 Winter Olympics]] [[Category:20th-century American sportsmen]] {{US-figure-skating-bio-stub}}</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nabeshima_Naohiro_(Saga)&diff=1259247760</id> <title>Nabeshima Naohiro (Saga)</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nabeshima_Naohiro_(Saga)&diff=1259247760"/> <updated>2024-11-24T04:40:42Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm per WP:ELPEREN <hr /> <div>{{short description|Japanese politician}} {{family name hatnote|Nabeshima|lang=Japanese}} {{Infobox officeholder | name= Nabeshima Naohiro&lt;br&gt;鍋島直大 | nationality=Japanese | image= Naohiro Nabeshima 01.jpg | caption= Nabeshima Naohiro | order=[[Saga Domain|Lord of Saga]] | term_start=1861 | term_end=1871 | predecessor=[[Nabeshima Naomasa]] | successor=none | birth_date={{birth date|1846|10|17|mf=y}} | birth_place= | death_date={{death date and age|1921|06|19|1846|10|17|mf=y}} | death_place= | spouse=[[Nabeshima Nagako]] | children={{Interlanguage link multi|Princess Nashimoto Itsuko|2=ja|3=梨本伊都子|preserve=1}} &lt;br /&gt; [[Nobuko Nabeshima|Nabeshima Nobuko]] | father=[[Nabeshima Naomasa]] }} [[File:Nabeshima Haohiro.jpg|thumb|Nabeshima Naohiro in Meiji court uniform]] {{nihongo|'''Nabeshima Naohiro''' or '''Nabeshima Chokudai'''&lt;ref name=JYB/&gt;|鍋島直大|extra= October 17, 1846 – June 19, 1921}} was the 11th and final ''[[daimyō]]'' of [[Saga Domain]] in [[Hizen Province]], [[Kyūshū]], Japan. Before the [[Meiji Restoration]], his name was {{nihongo|'''Nabeshima Mochizuru'''|鍋島茂実}} and his honorary title was ''[[Kokushi (officials)|Hizen-no-Kami]]''.&lt;ref name=JYB&gt;{{cite book|last=Takenobu|first=Yoshitarō|title=The Japan Year Book|publisher=Stone Bridge Press, Inc.|year=2008|format=preview |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=6U1PAAAAMAAJ|page=124}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Biography == Naohiro was the second son of [[Nabeshima Naomasa]], the 10th ''daimyō'' of Saga. On the retirement of his father in 1861, Naohiro was appointed 11th (and final) ''daimyō'' of Saga Domain. During the [[Boshin War]] of the Meiji Restoration, he led Saga’s forces as a component the [[Satchō Alliance]] in support of [[Emperor Meiji]], after the [[Battle of Toba–Fushimi]] and fought against the Tokugawa remnants at the [[Battle of Ueno]] and in the various campaigns in northern Japan against the [[Ōuetsu Reppan Dōmei]]. With the [[abolition of the han system]], he surrendered his domain to the central government, and departed Japan with his two younger brothers for studies in [[Great Britain]] starting 1871.&lt;ref name=JYB/&gt; He was appointed plenipotentiary minister to Rome in 1880, and returned to Japan in 1882. During his stay in England, he was appointed as official representative of Japan to the [[Court of St. James's]] by the Japanese government. After his return to Japan, he served in various political capacities, including president of the ''[[Genrōin]]'', advisor to Emperor Meiji (and later [[Emperor Taishō]]), and as a member of the [[House of Peers (Japan)|House of Peers]]. He was created {{Nihongo|[[marquis]]|侯爵|kōshaku||}}) in the [[kazoku#Development|Peerage Act]] of July 7, 1884.&lt;ref name=JYB/&gt; From 1911, he was president of [[Kokugakuin University]]. His connections with the [[Imperial Family of Japan]] were strong. His second daughter {{Interlanguage link multi|Princess Nashimoto Itsuko|2=ja|3=梨本伊都子|preserve=1}} became the wife of [[Prince Nashimoto Morimasa]]. This marriage produced for Naohiro two granddaughters, the elder of whom named Masako who became known as [[Bangja, Crown Princess Euimin of Korea|Bangja]], consort to the heir to the Korean [[Yi dynasty]]. Naohiro's fourth daughter named [[Nobuko Nabeshima|Nobuko]] married [[Tsuneo Matsudaira]] and one of their daughters became [[Princess Chichibu]]. She also gave birth to [[Ichirō Matsudaira]], who married Toyoko Tokugawa, [[Iemasa Tokugawa]]'s daughter, and gave birth to [[Tsunenari Tokugawa]], the eighteenth head of the [[Tokugawa clan]]. Naoharu died in 1921, and his grave is at the Aoyama Cemetery in Tokyo. == References == {{Reflist}} &lt;!-- ''The content of this article was derived from that of the corresponding article on Japanese Wikipedia.''--&gt; * {{cite book | last = Cobbing | first = Andrew | year = 1998 | title = The Japanese Discovery of Victorian Britain: Early Travel Encounters in the Far West | publisher = RoutledgeCurzon | location = | isbn = 1-873410-81-6 }} {{Commons category|Nabeshima Naohiro (Lord of Saga)}} {{S-start}} {{succession box | title=[[Saga Domain|11th ''Daimyō'' of Saga]] | before=[[Nabeshima Naomasa]]| after= ''none'' (domain abolished) | years=1861–1871}} {{S-end}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Nabeshima, Naohiro (Saga)}} [[Category:1846 births]] [[Category:1921 deaths]] [[Category:Daimyo]] [[Category:Japanese diplomats]] [[Category:Ambassadors of Japan to Italy]] [[Category:Kazoku]] [[Category:Members of the House of Peers (Japan)]] [[Category:Nabeshima clan]] [[Category:People of the Boshin War]] [[Category:People of Bakumatsu]] [[Category:People of Meiji-period Japan]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cary_Grant&diff=1259246332</id> <title>Cary Grant</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cary_Grant&diff=1259246332"/> <updated>2024-11-24T04:28:02Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: Reverted good faith edits by Julius Barclay (talk): See MOS:BIRTHDATE <hr /> <div>{{Short description|English and American actor (1904–1986)}} {{Redirect|Archibald Leach}} {{for|the voice coach and TV presenter|Carrie Grant}} {{pp-pc|small=yes}} {{good article}} {{Use mdy dates|date=April 2024}} {{Use American English|date=May 2021}} {{Infobox person | image = Grant, Cary (Suspicion) 01 Crisco edit.jpg | caption = Grant in a publicity still for ''[[Suspicion (1941 film)|Suspicion]]'' (1941) | alt = | birth_name = Archibald Alec Leach | birth_date = {{birth date|1904|1|18}} | birth_place = [[Horfield]], [[Bristol]], England | death_date = {{death date and age|1986|11|29|1904|1|18}} | death_place = [[Davenport, Iowa]], US&lt;!-- Per [[MOS:U.S.]], &quot;the use or non-use of periods (full stops) should also be consistent with other country abbreviations in the same article (thus 'the US, UK, and USSR', not 'the U.S., UK, and USSR').&quot; --&gt; | citizenship = {{hlist|United Kingdom|United States (from 1942)}} | occupation = Actor | works = [[List of Cary Grant performances|List of performances]] | spouse = {{ubl|{{marriage|[[Virginia Cherrill]]|1934|1935|reason=div}}|{{marriage|[[Barbara Hutton]]|1942|1945|reason=div}}|{{marriage|[[Betsy Drake]]|1949|1962|reason=div}}|{{marriage|[[Dyan Cannon]]|1965|1968|reason=div}}|{{marriage|Barbara Harris|1981}}}} | children = [[Jennifer Grant]] | years_active = 1922–1986 | awards = {{ubl|[[Academy Honorary Award]] (1970)|[[Kennedy Center Honors]] (1981)}} }} '''Cary Grant''' (born '''Archibald Alec Leach''';{{efn|name=MiddleName|His middle name was recorded as &quot;Alec&quot; on birth records, although he later used &quot;Alexander&quot; on his naturalization application form in 1942.{{sfn|Eliot|2004|p=390}}&lt;ref name=BirthRecordList /&gt;&lt;ref name=McCarthy /&gt;}} January 18, 1904{{snd}}November 29, 1986) was an English and American actor. Known for his [[Mid-Atlantic accent]], debonair demeanor, lighthearted approach to acting, and sense of comic timing, he was one of [[Classical Hollywood cinema|classic Hollywood]]'s definitive [[leading man|leading men]]. He was nominated twice for the [[Academy Award for Best Actor|Academy Award]], received an [[Academy Honorary Award]] in [[42nd Academy Awards|1970]], and received the [[Kennedy Center Honor]] in 1981.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url= https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/cary-grant-the-life-of-hollywoods-definitive-leading-man/|title= Cary Grant: The life of Hollywood's definitive leading man|website= FarOut|date= November 29, 2020|accessdate= May 27, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url= https://www.kennedy-center.org/artists/g/go-gz/cary-grant/|title= Cary Grant – Kennedy Center Honors|website= [[Kennedy Center Honors]]|accessdate= May 26, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; He was named [[AFI's 100 Years...100 Stars#List of 50 greatest screen legends: Top 25 Male and Top 25 Female stars|the second greatest male star]] of the [[Golden Age of Hollywood]] by the [[American Film Institute]] in 1999.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url= https://www.afi.com/afis-100-years-100-stars/|title= AFI's 100 YEARS...100 STARS: The 50 Greatest American Screen Legends|website= [[American Film Institute]]|accessdate= May 27, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Grant was born into an impoverished family in [[Bristol]], where he had an unhappy childhood marked by the absence of his mother and his father's alcoholism. He became attracted to theatre at a young age when he visited the [[Bristol Hippodrome]].{{sfnm|1a1=McCann|1y=1997|1p=35|2a1=Nelson|2y=2002|2p=10}} At 16, he went as a stage performer with the Pender Troupe for a tour of the US. After a series of successful performances in New York City, he decided to stay there.{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=44–46}} He established a name for himself in [[vaudeville]] in the 1920s and toured the United States before moving to Hollywood in the early 1930s. Grant initially appeared in crime films and dramas, such as ''[[Blonde Venus]]'' (1932) and ''[[She Done Him Wrong]]'' (1933), but later gained renown for his performances in romantic [[screwball comedy|screwball]] comedies such as ''[[The Awful Truth]]'' (1937), ''[[Bringing Up Baby]]'' (1938), ''[[His Girl Friday]]'' (1940), and ''[[The Philadelphia Story (film)|The Philadelphia Story]]'' (1940). These pictures are frequently cited among the greatest comedy films of all time.&lt;ref name=&quot;ATCF&quot;&gt; Sources: * {{cite web |url = https://www.bfi.org.uk/lists/10-great-screwball-comedies |title = 10 great screwball comedy films |publisher = [[British Film Institute]] |date = September 13, 2015 |access-date = June 15, 2016 |first = Samuel |last = Wigley |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615003943/http://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/news-bfi/lists/10-great-screwball-comedies |archive-date = June 15, 2016|url-status = live |ref=none}} * {{cite web |url = https://www.bfi.org.uk/lists/cary-grant-10-essential-films |title = Cary Grant: 10 essential films |publisher = British Film Institute |date = January 13, 2016 |access-date = June 15, 2016 |first = Samuel |last = Wigley |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615005635/http://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/news-bfi/lists/10-best-cary-grant-films |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |url-status=live|ref=none}} * {{cite web |url = http://www.afi.com/10top10/category.aspx?cat=2 |title = AFI's 10 Top 10&amp;nbsp;– Romantic Comedies |publisher = [[American Film Institute]] |access-date = June 15, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615004316/http://www.afi.com/10top10/category.aspx?cat=2 |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |url-status=live }} * {{cite web |url = http://www.ifc.com/2012/07/the-10-essential-cary-grant-comedies |title = The 10 Essential Cary Grant Comedies&amp;nbsp;– 1 |publisher = [[IFC (U.S. TV network)|IFC]] |date = July 5, 2012 |access-date = June 15, 2016 |first = Andy |last = Hunsaker |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615004829/http://www.ifc.com/2012/07/the-10-essential-cary-grant-comedies |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |url-status = live|ref=none}} * {{cite web |url = http://www.ifc.com/fix/2012/06/the-10-essential-cary-grant-comedies/2 |title = The 10 Essential Cary Grant Comedies&amp;nbsp;– 2 |publisher = IFC |date = July 5, 2012 |access-date = June 15, 2016 |first = Andy |last = Hunsaker |archive-url = https://www.webcitation.org/6iGuAw6fM?url=http://www.ifc.com/2012/07/the-10-essential-cary-grant-comedies/2 |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |url-status=live|ref=none}}&lt;/ref&gt; Other well-known films in which he starred in this period were the adventure ''[[Gunga Din (film)|Gunga Din]]'' (1939), the [[dark comedy]] ''[[Arsenic and Old Lace (film)|Arsenic and Old Lace]]'' (1944), and the dramas ''[[Only Angels Have Wings]]'' (1939), ''[[Penny Serenade]]'' (1941), and ''[[None but the Lonely Heart (film)|None but the Lonely Heart]]'' (1944), the latter two for which he was nominated for the [[Academy Award for Best Actor]]. During the 1940s and 1950s, Grant had a close working relationship with director [[Alfred Hitchcock]], who cast him in four films: ''[[Suspicion (1941 film)|Suspicion]]'' (1941), ''[[Notorious (1946 film)|Notorious]]'' (1946), ''[[To Catch a Thief]]'' (1955), and ''[[North by Northwest]]'' (1959). For the suspense-dramas ''Suspicion'' and ''Notorious'', Grant took on darker, morally ambiguous characters, both challenging Grant's screen persona and his acting abilities. Toward the end of his career he starred in the romantic films ''[[Indiscreet (1958 film)|Indiscreet]]'' (1958), ''[[Operation Petticoat]]'' (1959), ''[[That Touch of Mink]]'' (1962), and ''[[Charade (1963 film)|Charade]]'' (1963). He is remembered by critics for his unusually broad appeal as a handsome, suave actor who did not take himself too seriously, and in comedies was able to toy with his dignity without sacrificing it entirely. Grant was married five times, three of them elopements with actresses [[Virginia Cherrill]] (1934–1935), [[Betsy Drake]] (1949–1962), and [[Dyan Cannon]] (1965–1968). He had daughter [[Jennifer Grant]] with Cannon. He retired from film acting in 1966 and pursued numerous business interests, representing cosmetics firm [[Fabergé (cosmetics)|Fabergé]] and sitting on the board of [[Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer]]. He died of a stroke in 1986 at the age of 82. == Early life and education == Grant was born Archibald Alec Leach on January 18, 1904, at 15 Hughenden Road in the northern [[Bristol]], England suburb of [[Horfield]].{{sfnm|1a1=McCann|1y=1997|1p=13|2a1=Eliot|2y=2004|2p=390}}&lt;ref name=BirthRecordList&gt;{{cite web |url = https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=AjvF9Kgq%2Fb8ObFmduVgRiw&amp;scan=1 |title = Index entry – Birth record list |access-date = March 17, 2017 |work = FreeBMD |publisher = ONS }}&lt;/ref&gt; He was the second child of Elias James Leach and Elsie Maria Leach (née Kingdon).{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=13}} His father worked as a tailor's presser at a clothes factory, while his mother worked as a seamstress.{{sfn|Eliot|2004|p=24}} His older brother John William Elias Leach died of [[tuberculous meningitis]] two days before his first birthday.{{sfn|Eliot|2004|p=25}} {{anchor|Jewish}}Grant may have considered himself partly Jewish.{{efn|Among the reasons that he gave for believing so was that he was circumcised, and circumcision was and still is rare in Britain outside the Jewish community.{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=14–15}} In 1948, he donated a large sum of money to help the newly established State of Israel, declaring that it was &quot;in the name of his dead Jewish mother&quot;.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2004|p=114}} He also speculated that his appearance, with brown curly hair, could be due to his father's partly Jewish descent. There is no genealogical or substantial evidence about possible Jewish ancestry, however.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=16}} He turned down the leading role in ''[[Gentleman's Agreement]]'' in the 1940s, playing a non-Jewish character who pretends to be Jewish, because he believed that he could not effectively play the part. He donated considerable sums to Jewish causes over his lifetime. In 1939, he gave Jewish actor [[Sam Jaffe]] $25,000.{{sfnm|1a1=Higham|1a2=Moseley|1y=1990|1p=3|2a1=McCann|2y=1997|2pp=14–15}}}} He had an unhappy upbringing; his father was an alcoholic{{sfn|Klein|2009|p=32}} and his mother had clinical depression.{{sfn|Weiten|1996|p=291}} {{quote box | width = 30em | bgcolor = #c6dbf7 | align = right | quote = He had such a traumatic childhood, it was horrible. I work with a lot of kids on the street and I've heard a lot of stories about what happens when a family breaks down&amp;nbsp;— but his was just horrendous. | source = —Grant's wife Dyan Cannon on his childhood&lt;ref name=&quot;SMH&quot;&gt;{{cite news |url = https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/cary-grants-lsd-gateway-to-god-20111018-1lye1.html |title = Cary Grant's LSD 'gateway to God' |work = [[The Sydney Morning Herald]] |date = 18 October 2011 |access-date = 14 October 2015 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160303044031/http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/cary-grants-lsd-gateway-to-god-20111018-1lye1.html |archive-date = March 3, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; }} Grant's mother taught him song and dance when he was four, and she was keen on his having piano lessons.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=14}} She occasionally took him to the cinema, where he enjoyed the performances of [[Charlie Chaplin]], [[Chester Conklin]], [[Fatty Arbuckle]], [[Ford Sterling]], [[Mack Swain]], and [[Broncho Billy Anderson]].{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=20}} He moved a short distance to 50 Berkeley Road at about age 4,&lt;ref name=bp-20241122/&gt; and was sent to [[Bishop Road Primary School]] when he was {{frac|4|1|2}}.{{sfn|Wansell|1983|p=32}} Grant's biographer [[Graham McCann]] claimed that his mother &quot;did not know how to give affection and did not know how to receive it either&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=27}} Biographer Geoffrey Wansell notes that his mother blamed herself bitterly for the death of Grant's brother John, and never recovered from it.{{efn|Wansell states that John was a &quot;sickly child&quot; who frequently came down with a fever. He had developed gangrene on his arms after a door was slammed on his thumbnail while his mother was holding him. She stayed up night after night nursing him, but the doctor insisted that she get some rest—and he died the night that she stopped watching over him.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=13}}}} Grant acknowledged that his negative experiences with his mother affected his relationships with women later in life.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=63}} She frowned on alcohol and tobacco,{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=13}} and would reduce pocket money for minor mishaps.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=19}} Grant attributed her behavior to overprotectiveness, fearing that she would lose him as she did John.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=14}} When Grant was nine, his father placed his mother in [[Glenside, Bristol|Glenside Hospital]], a mental institution, and told him she had gone away on a &quot;long holiday&quot;,{{sfn|Vermilye|1973|p=13}} later declaring that she had died.{{sfn|Klein|2009|p=32}} Grant grew up resenting his mother, particularly after being told she left the family. After she was institutionalised, Grant and his father moved into Grant's grandmother's home in Bristol.{{sfnm|1a1=Royce|1a2=Donaldson|1y=1989|1p=298|2a1=Nelson|2y=2002|2p=36}} When Grant was ten, his father remarried and started a new family.&lt;ref name=&quot;SMH&quot; /&gt; Grant did not learn that his mother was still alive until he was 31,{{sfn|Connolly|2014|p=209}} his father confessing to the lie shortly before his own death.&lt;ref name=&quot;SMH&quot; /&gt; Grant made arrangements for his mother to leave the institution in June 1935, shortly after he learned of her whereabouts.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title = How a surprise visit to the museum led to new discoveries |date = February 7, 2015 |url = http://www.glensidemuseum.org.uk/surprise-visit-museum-led-new-discoveries/ |publisher = Glenside Museum |access-date = December 23, 2015 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160303044704/http://www.glensidemuseum.org.uk/surprise-visit-museum-led-new-discoveries/ |archive-date = March 3, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; He visited her regularly,&lt;ref name=bp-20241122/&gt; including after filming ''Gunga Din'' in October 1938.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=94}} Grant enjoyed the theater, particularly [[pantomimes]] at Christmas, which he attended with his father.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=19}} He befriended a troupe of acrobatic dancers known as The Penders or the Bob Pender Stage Troupe.{{sfn|Rood|1994|p=140}} He subsequently trained as a stilt walker and began touring with them.{{sfnm|1a1=Rood|1y=1994|1p=140|2a1=Miniter|2y=2013|2p=194}} [[Jesse Lasky]] was a Broadway producer at the time and saw Grant performing at the [[Berlin Wintergarten theatre|Wintergarten theater]] in Berlin around 1914.{{sfnm|1a1=Fryer|1y=2005|1p=164|2a1=Louvish|2y=2007|2p=40|3a1=Miniter|3y=2013|3p=194}} [[File:Fairfield School, Montpelier, Bristol. - geograph.org.uk - 198016.jpg|thumb|right|[[Fairfield Grammar School]], which Grant attended between 1915 and 1918]] In 1915, Grant won a scholarship to attend [[Fairfield Grammar School]] in Bristol, although his father could barely afford to pay for the uniform.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=29}} He was quite capable in most academic subjects,{{efn|Wansell notes that Grant hated mathematics and Latin and was more interested in geography, because he &quot;wanted to travel&quot;.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=16}}}} but he excelled at sports, particularly [[fives]], and his good looks and acrobatic talents made him a popular figure.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=33}}&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |url = https://archive.org/stream/modernscreen56unse#page/n849/mode/2up |title = The Life Story of Cary Grant |author = Ramsey, Walter |journal = Modern Screen |publisher = Dell Publications |date = October 1933 |page = 30 |access-date = June 17, 2016 }}&lt;/ref&gt; He developed a reputation for mischief, and frequently refused to do his homework.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=30}} A former classmate referred to him as a &quot;scruffy little boy&quot;, while an old teacher remembered &quot;the naughty little boy who was always making a noise in the back row and would never do his homework&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=33}} He spent his evenings working backstage in Bristol theatres, and at the age of 13, was responsible for the lighting for magician [[David Devant]] at the Bristol Empire in 1917.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=21}} He began hanging around backstage at the theatre at every opportunity,{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=16}} and volunteered for work in the summer as a messenger boy and guide at the military docks in [[Southampton]], to escape the unhappiness of his home life.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=34}} The time spent at Southampton strengthened his desire to travel; he was eager to leave Bristol and tried to sign on as a ship's cabin boy, but he was too young.{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=30–31}} On March 13, 1918, the 14-year-old{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=37}} Grant was expelled from Fairfield.{{sfn|Fells|2015|p=105}} Several explanations were given, including being discovered in the girls' lavatory{{sfn|Schickel|2009|p=29}} and assisting two other classmates with theft in the nearby town of [[Almondsbury]].{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=37–38}} Wansell claims that Grant had set out intentionally to get himself expelled from school to pursue a career in entertainment with the troupe,{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=17}} and he did rejoin Pender's troupe three days after being expelled. His father had a better-paying job in Southampton, and Grant's expulsion brought local authorities to Pender's door with questions about why he was living in Bristol and not with his father in Southampton. His father then co-signed a three-year contract between Grant and Pender that stipulated Grant's weekly salary, along with room and board, dancing lessons, and other training for his profession until age 18. There was also a provision in the contract for salary raises based on job performance.{{sfnm|1a1=McCann|1y=1997|1p=34|2a1=Nelson|2y=2002|2p=42|3a1=Eliot|3y=2004|3p=34}} == Vaudeville and performing career == [[File:Hippodrome interior.jpg|thumb|right|The [[New York Hippodrome]] where Grant performed]] The Pender Troupe began touring the country, and Grant's performing pantomime developed his physical skills, broadening the range of his acting.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=17}} The troupe traveled on the {{RMS|Olympic}} to conduct a tour of the United States on July 21, 1920, when he was 16, arriving a week later.{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=44–46}} Biographer [[Richard Schickel]] writes that [[Douglas Fairbanks]] and [[Mary Pickford]] were aboard the same ship, returning from their honeymoon; Grant played shuffleboard with Fairbanks, who became an important role model for him.{{sfn|Schickel|1998|p=20}} After arriving in New York, the group performed at the [[New York Hippodrome]], the largest theater in the world at the time with a capacity of 5,697. They performed there for nine months, putting on 12 shows a week, and they had a successful production of ''[[Good Times (musical)|Good Times]]''.{{sfnm|1a1=McCann|1y=1997|1pp=44–46|2a1=Wansell|2y=2011|2p=17}} {{quote box | width = 30em | bgcolor = #c6dbf7 | align = left | quote = Doing stand-up comedy is extremely difficult. Your timing has to change from show to show and from town to town. You're always adjusting to the size of the audience and the size of the theatre. | source = —Grant on stand-up comedy.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=53}} }} Grant became a part of the [[vaudeville]] circuit and began touring, performing in places such as [[St. Louis, Missouri]], [[Cleveland]], and [[Milwaukee]],{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=18}} and he decided to stay in the US with several of the other members when the rest of the troupe returned to Britain.{{sfn|Roberts|2014|p=100}} He became fond of the [[Marx Brothers]] during this period, and [[Zeppo Marx]] was an early role model for him.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=49}} In July 1922, he performed in a group called the &quot;Knockabout Comedians&quot; at the [[Palace Theatre (New York City)|Palace Theater]] on Broadway.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=18}} He formed another group that summer called &quot;The Walking Stanleys&quot; with several of the former members of the Pender Troupe, and he starred in a variety show named &quot;Better Times&quot; at the Hippodrome towards the end of the year.{{sfnm|1a1=McCann|1y=1997|1p=51|2a1=Wansell|2y=2011|2p=18}} While serving as a paid escort for the opera singer [[Lucrezia Bori]] at a Park Avenue party, he met [[George C. Tilyou#Personal life|George C. Tilyou Jr.]], whose family owned [[Steeplechase Park]].{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=18}} Learning of his acrobatic experience, Tilyou hired him to work as a stilt-walker and attract large crowds on the newly opened [[Coney Island Boardwalk]], wearing a bright [[greatcoat]] and a [[sandwich board]] that advertised the amusement park.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=49}} [[File:Casino Theatre, Broadway and 39th Street, Manhattan - crop.jpg|thumb|left|The [[Casino Theatre (New York City)|Casino Theater]] on Broadway and 39th Street, where Grant appeared in Shubert's ''Boom-Boom'']] Grant spent the next couple of years touring the United States with &quot;The Walking Stanleys&quot;. He visited Los Angeles for the first time in 1924, which made a lasting impression on him.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=18}} The group split up and he returned to New York, where he began performing at the National Vaudeville Artists Club on West 46th Street, doing comic sketches, juggling, performing acrobatics, and as &quot;Rubber Legs&quot;, riding a unicycle.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=51}} The experience was a particularly demanding one, but it gave Grant the opportunity to improve his comic technique and to develop skills that benefitted him later in Hollywood.{{sfnm|1a1=McCann|1y=1997|1p=53|2a1=Roberts|2y=2014|2p=100}} Grant became a leading man alongside [[Jean Dalrymple]] and decided to form the &quot;Jack Janis Company&quot;, which began touring vaudeville.{{sfn|Slide|2012|p=211}} He was sometimes mistaken for an Australian during this period and was nicknamed &quot;Kangaroo&quot; or &quot;Boomerang&quot;.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|pp=18–19}} His accent seemed to have changed as a result of moving to London with the Pender troupe and working in so many music halls in the UK and the US, eventually becoming a sort of [[Mid-Atlantic accent|transatlantic or mid-Atlantic accent]].{{sfnm|1a1=McCann|1y=1997|1pp=59–60|2a1=Walker|2y=2015|2p=187}}{{efn|Grant likely made further changes to his accent after electing to remain in the United States, in an effort to make himself more employable.{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=59–60}} The slight Cockney accent that Grant had picked up during his time with the Pender troupe, blended with his efforts to sound American, resulted in his unique manner of speaking.{{sfn|Nelson|2002|pp=55–56}}}} In 1927, he was cast as an Australian in Reggie Hammerstein's musical ''Golden Dawn'', for which he earned $75 a week.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=19}} The show was not well received, but it lasted for 184 performances and several critics started to notice Grant as the &quot;pleasant new juvenile&quot; or &quot;competent young newcomer&quot;.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=19}} The following year, he joined the [[William Morris Agency]] and was offered another juvenile part by Hammerstein in his play ''Polly'', an unsuccessful production.{{sfnm|1a1=Donnelley|1y=2003|1p=290|2a1=Wansell|2y=2011|2p=19}} One critic wrote that Grant &quot;has a strong masculine manner, but unfortunately fails to bring out the beauty of the score&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=53}} Wansell notes that the pressure of a failing production began to make him fret, and he was eventually dropped from the run after six weeks of poor reviews.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=20}} Despite the setback, Hammerstein's rival [[Florenz Ziegfeld]] made an attempt to buy Grant's contract, but Hammerstein sold it to the [[Shubert Brothers]] instead.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=20}} [[J. J. Shubert]] cast him in a small role as a Spaniard opposite [[Jeanette MacDonald]] in the French risqué comedy ''Boom-Boom'' at the Casino Theater on Broadway, which premiered on January 28, 1929, ten days after his 25th birthday.{{sfnm|1a1=Wansell|1y=1983|1p=75|2a1=Turk|2y=1998|2p=350}} MacDonald later admitted that Grant was &quot;absolutely terrible in the role&quot;, but he exhibited a charm that endeared him to people and effectively saved the show from failure.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=20}} The play ran for 72 shows, and Grant earned $350 a week before moving to Detroit, and then to Chicago.{{sfnm|1a1=McCann|1y=1997|1p=54|2a1=Wansell|2y=2011|2p=20}}{{efn|The play's success prompted a screen test for Grant and MacDonald by Paramount Publix Pictures at [[Astoria Studios]] in New York, which resulted in MacDonald being cast opposite [[Maurice Chevalier]] in ''[[The Love Parade]]'' (1929). Grant was rejected, and informed that his neck was &quot;too thick&quot; and his legs were &quot;too bowed&quot;.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=20}}}} [[File:Cary Grant circa 1930.jpg|thumb|right|upright|Grant in 1930]] To console himself, Grant bought a 1927 [[Packard]] sport [[phaeton body|phaeton]].{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=20}} He visited his half-brother Eric in England, and he returned to New York to play the role of Max Grunewald in a Shubert production of ''A Wonderful Night''.{{sfn|Traubner|2004|p=115}} It premiered at the Majestic Theatre on October 31, 1929, two days after the [[Wall Street Crash]], and lasted until February 1930 with 125 shows.{{sfnm|1a1=McCann|1y=1997|1p=55|2a1=Wansell|2y=2011|2p=20}} The play received mixed reviews; one critic criticized his acting, likening it to a &quot;mixture of [[John Barrymore]] and [[cockney]]&quot;, while another announced that he had brought a &quot;breath of elfin Broadway&quot; to the role.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=55}} Grant found it difficult forming relationships with women, remarking that he &quot;never seemed able to fully communicate with them&quot; even after many years &quot;surrounded by all sorts of attractive girls&quot; in the theater, on the road, and in New York.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=21}} In 1930, Grant toured for nine months in a production of the musical ''The Street Singer''.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=56}} It ended in early 1931, and the Shuberts invited him to spend the summer performing on the stage at [[The Muny]] in [[St. Louis, Missouri]]; he appeared in 12 different productions, putting on 87 shows.{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=6}}{{efn|The productions included ''[[Irene (musical)|Irene]]'', ''Music in May'', ''Nina Rosa'', ''[[Rio Rita (musical)|Rio Rita]]'', and ''[[The Three Musketeers (musical)|The Three Musketeers]]''.{{sfnm|1a1=Botto|1a2=Viagas|1y=2010|1p=493|2a1=Wansell|2y=2011|2p=21}}}} He received praise from local newspapers for these performances, gaining a reputation as a romantic leading man.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=56}} Significant influences on his acting in this period were [[Gerald du Maurier]], [[A. E. Matthews]], [[Jack Buchanan]], and [[Ronald Squire]].{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=71}} He admitted that he was drawn to acting because of a &quot;great need to be liked and admired&quot;.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=13}} He was eventually fired by the Shuberts at the end of the summer season when he refused to accept a pay cut because of financial difficulties caused by the [[Great Depression|Depression]].{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=21}} His unemployment was short-lived, however; impresario [[William B. Friedlander]] offered him the romantic lead in his musical ''Nikki'', and Grant starred opposite [[Fay Wray]] as a soldier in post-World War I France. The production opened on September 29, 1931, in New York, but was stopped after just 39 performances due to the effects of the Depression.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=21}} == Film career == {{See also|Cary Grant on screen, stage and radio}} === 1932–1936: Acting debut and early roles === [[File:This is the Night.jpg|thumb|right|With [[Roland Young]] (''right''), [[Lili Damita]] (''center''), and [[Charlie Ruggles]] (''far left'') in his debut film ''[[This Is the Night (1932 film)|This is the Night]]'' (1932)]] Grant's role in ''Nikki'' was praised by [[Ed Sullivan]] of ''[[The New York Daily News]]'', who noted that the &quot;young lad from England&quot; had &quot;a big future in the movies&quot;.{{sfn|Eliot|2004|pp=54–55}} The review led to another screen test by Paramount Publix, resulting in an appearance as a sailor in ''[[Singapore Sue]]'' (1931),&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|last=Bonet Mojica|first=Lluis|title=Cary Grant|year=2004|isbn=84-95602-58-X|pages=37–38|publisher=T &amp; B Editores }}&lt;/ref&gt; a ten-minute short film by [[Casey Robinson]].{{sfn|Eliot|2004|pp=54–55}} Grant delivered his lines &quot;without any conviction&quot; according to McCann.{{efn|Grant was later so embarrassed by the scene and he requested that it be omitted from his 1970 Academy Award footage.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=57}}}} Through Robinson, Grant met with [[Jesse L. Lasky]] and [[B. P. Schulberg]], the co-founder and general manager of [[Paramount Pictures]] respectively.{{sfn|Eliot|2004|pp=56–57}} After a successful screen-test directed by [[Marion Gering]],{{efn|Grant would later work with Gering in ''[[Devil and the Deep]]'' and ''[[Madame Butterfly (1932 film)|Madame Butterfly]]'' (both 1932)}} Schulberg signed a contract with the 27-year-old Grant on December 7, 1931, for five years,{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=62}} at a starting salary of $450 a week.{{sfnm|1a1=Vermilye|1y=1973|p=19|2a1=Wansell|2y=2011|2p=21}} Schulberg demanded that he change his name to &quot;something that sounded more all-American like [[Gary Cooper]]&quot;, and they eventually agreed on Cary Grant.{{sfn|Eliot|2004|p=57}}{{efn|Grant agreed that &quot;Archie just doesn't sound right in America. It doesn't sound particularly right in Britain either&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=61}} While having dinner with Fay Wray, she suggested that he choose &quot;Cary Lockwood&quot;, the name of his character in ''Nikki''. Schulberg agreed the name &quot;Cary&quot; was acceptable, but was less satisfied with &quot;Lockwood&quot; as it was too similar to another actor's surname. Schulberg then gave Grant a list of surnames compiled by Paramount's publicity department, out of which he chose &quot;Grant&quot;.{{sfn|Eliot|2004|p=57}}}} Grant set out to establish himself as what McCann calls the &quot;epitome of masculine glamour&quot;, and made Douglas Fairbanks his first role model.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=65}} McCann notes that Grant's career in Hollywood immediately took off because he exhibited a &quot;genuine charm&quot;, which made him stand out among the other good looking actors at the time, making it &quot;remarkably easy to find people who were willing to support his embryonic career&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=60}} He made his feature film debut with the [[Frank Tuttle]]-directed comedy ''[[This Is the Night (1932 film)|This is the Night]]'' (1932), playing an Olympic javelin thrower opposite [[Thelma Todd]] and [[Lili Damita]].{{sfnm|1a1=Vermilye|1y=1973|1p=20|2a1=Eliot|2y=2004|2p=62}} Grant disliked his role and threatened to leave Hollywood,{{sfnm|1a1=Eliot|1y=2004|1p=62|2a1=Wansell|2y=2011|2p=22}} but to his surprise a critic from ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' praised his performance, and thought that he looked like a &quot;potential femme rave&quot;.{{sfn|Eliot|2004|p=63}} In 1932, Grant played a wealthy [[playboy lifestyle|playboy]] opposite [[Marlene Dietrich]] in ''[[Blonde Venus]]'', directed by [[Josef von Sternberg]]. Grant's role is described by [[William Rothman]] as projecting the &quot;distinctive kind of nonmacho masculinity that was to enable him to incarnate a man capable of being a romantic hero&quot;.{{sfn|Rothman|2014|p=71}} Grant found that he conflicted with the director during the filming and the two often argued in German.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=80}} He played a suave playboy type in a number of films: ''[[Merrily We Go to Hell]]'' opposite [[Fredric March]] and [[Sylvia Sidney]], ''[[Devil and the Deep]]'' with [[Tallulah Bankhead]], [[Gary Cooper]] and [[Charles Laughton]] (Cooper and Grant had no scenes together), ''[[Hot Saturday]]'' opposite [[Nancy Carroll]] and [[Randolph Scott]],{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=29}} and ''[[Madame Butterfly (1932 film)|Madame Butterfly]]'' with Sidney.&lt;ref name=&quot;Filmography&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url = http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/person/75180%7C28068/Cary-Grant/filmography-with-synopsis.html |title = Cary Grant&amp;nbsp;– Complete Filmography With Synopsis |publisher = [[Turner Classic Movies]] |access-date = November 16, 2015 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20151116122928/http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/person/75180%7C28068/Cary-Grant/filmography-with-synopsis.html |archive-date = November 16, 2015 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;{{sfn|Eliot|2004|pp=63–68}} According to biographer Marc Eliot, while these films did not make Grant a star, they did well enough to establish him as one of Hollywood's &quot;new crop of fast-rising actors&quot;.{{sfn|Eliot|2004|p=66}} [[File:Grant West I'm No Angel Still 1933.jpg|thumb|left|Grant and [[Mae West]] in ''[[I'm No Angel]]'' (1933)]] In 1933, Grant gained attention for appearing in the [[Pre-Code Hollywood|pre-Code films]] ''[[She Done Him Wrong]]'' and ''[[I'm No Angel]]'' opposite [[Mae West]].{{efn|''She Done Him Wrong''—an adaptation of Mae West's own play ''[[Diamond Lil (play)|Diamond Lil]]'' (1928)—was nominated in the [[Academy Award for Best Picture]] category, but lost to ''[[Cavalcade (1933 film)|Cavalcade]]'' (1933).{{sfn|Eliot|2004|pp=68–69}}&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = https://www.oscars.org/oscars/ceremonies/1934 |title = The 6th Academy Awards 1934 |publisher = [[Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences]] |date = March 16, 1934 |access-date = June 7, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160607094822/https://www.oscars.org/oscars/ceremonies/1934 |archive-date = June 7, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;}} West would later claim that she had discovered Cary Grant.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=30}}{{efn|According to biographer Jerry Vermilye, Grant had caught West's eye in the studio and had queried about him to one of Paramount's office boys. The boy replied, &quot;Oh, that's Cary Grant. He's making [''Madame''] ''Butterfly'' with Sylvia Sidney&quot;. West then retorted, &quot;I don't care if he's making Little Nell. If he can talk, I'll take him.&quot;{{sfn|Vermilye|1973|p=30}}}} Of course Grant had already made ''Blonde Venus'' the previous year in which he was Marlene Dietrich's [[leading man]]. [[Pauline Kael]] noted that Grant did not appear confident in his role as a [[Salvation Army]] director in ''She Done Him Wrong'', which made it all the more charming.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=86}}&lt;ref name=&quot;Kael&quot;&gt;{{cite magazine |url = https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1975/07/14/the-man-from-dream-city |title = The Man From Dream City |magazine = [[The New Yorker]] |date = July 14, 1975 |access-date = June 9, 2016 |first = Pauline |last = Kael |author-link = Pauline Kael |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160609003841/http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1975/07/14/the-man-from-dream-city |archive-date = June 9, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The film was a box office hit, earning more than $2&amp;nbsp;million in the United States,{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=31}} and has since won much acclaim.{{efn|The film is ranked at 75 in [[AFI's 100 Years... 100 Laughs]] list, while West's line &quot;Why don't you come up sometime and see me?&quot; was voted number 26 in [[AFI's 100 Years... 100 Movie Quotes]].&lt;ref name=&quot;AFI Laughs&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url = http://www.afi.com/100Years/laughs.aspx |title = AFI's 100 Funniest American Movies Of All Time |publisher = [[American Film Institute]] |access-date = November 16, 2015 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20151116134020/http://www.afi.com/100Years/laughs.aspx |archive-date = November 16, 2015 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = http://www.afi.com/100Years/quotes.aspx |title = AFI's 100 Greatest Movie Quotes Of All Time |publisher = American Film Institute |access-date = November 16, 2015 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20151116134035/http://www.afi.com/100Years/quotes.aspx |archive-date = November 16, 2015 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;}} For ''I'm No Angel'', Grant's salary was increased from $450 to $750 a week.{{sfn|Eliot|2004|p=73}} The film was even more successful than ''She Done Him Wrong'', and saved Paramount from bankruptcy;{{sfn|Eliot|2004|p=73}} Vermilye cites it as one of the best comedy films of the 1930s.{{sfnm|1a1=Vermilye|1y=1973|1pp=37–38|2a1=Eliot|2y=2004|2p=91}} After a string of financially unsuccessful films, which included roles as a president of a company who is sued for knocking down a boy in an accident in ''[[Born to Be Bad (1934 film)|Born to Be Bad]]'' (1934) for 20th Century Fox,{{efn|''The New York Times'' called ''Born to Be Bad'' a &quot;hopelessly unintelligent hodgepodge&quot;, while ''Variety'' labelled his performance &quot;colorless&quot; and &quot;meaningless&quot;.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=36}}}} a cosmetic surgeon in ''[[Kiss and Make-Up]]'' (1934),{{sfn|Halliwell|1976|p=23}} and a blinded pilot opposite [[Myrna Loy]] in ''[[Wings in the Dark]]'' (1935), and press reports of problems in his marriage to Cherrill,{{efn|In December 1934 Virginia Cherrill informed a jury in a Los Angeles court that Grant &quot;drank excessively, choked and beat her, and threatened to kill her&quot;. The press continued to report on the turbulent relationship which began to tarnish his image.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=38}}}} Paramount concluded that Grant was expendable.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=38}}{{efn|Though Grant's films in the 1934–1935 period were commercial failures, he was still getting positive comments from the critics, who thought that his acting was getting better. One reviewer from ''Daily Variety'' wrote of ''Wings in the Dark'': &quot;Cary Grant tops all his past work. The part gave him a dimension to play with and he took it headlong. He never flaws in the moving, pathetic, but inspiring behavior of a man whose career seems ruined by an accident but comes back through a mental hell, by virtue of love and the saving ruses of friendship. His acting here lifts him definitely above his prior standing.&quot;{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=84}} Graham Greene of ''The Spectator'' thought that he played his role in ''The Last Outpost'' &quot;extremely well&quot;.{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=86}}}} [[File:Ladies Should Listen 2.jpg|thumb|right|Lobby card for ''[[Ladies Should Listen]]'' (1934) with [[Frances Drake]] and Grant]] Grant's prospects picked up in the latter half of 1935 when he was loaned out to [[RKO Pictures]].{{sfn|Vermilye|1973|p=48}} Producer [[Pandro Berman]] agreed to take him on in the face of failure because &quot;I'd seen him do things which were excellent, and [[Katharine Hepburn|[Katharine] Hepburn]] wanted him too.&quot;{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=39}} His first venture with RKO, playing a raffish Cockney swindler in [[George Cukor]]'s ''[[Sylvia Scarlett]]'' (1935), was the first of four collaborations with Hepburn.{{sfnm|1a1=Vermilye|1y=1973|1pp=48–49|2a1=Deschner|2y=1973|2pp=88–89}}{{efn|The pair would later on feature in ''[[Bringing Up Baby]]'' (1938), ''[[Holiday (1938 film)|Holiday]]'' (1938) and ''[[The Philadelphia Story (film)|The Philadelphia Story]]'' (1940).{{sfn|Vermilye|1973|pp=146–148}}}} Though a commercial failure,{{sfn|Schickel|1998|p=46}} his dominating performance was praised by critics,{{sfnm|1a1=Vermilye|1y=1973|1pp=48–49|2a1=Wansell|2y=2011|2p=41}} and Grant always considered the film to have been the breakthrough for his career.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=89}} When his contract with Paramount ended in 1936 with the release of ''[[Wedding Present (film)|Wedding Present]]'', Grant decided not to renew it and wished to work [[freelance]]. Grant claimed to be the first freelance actor in Hollywood.{{sfn|Vermilye|1973|p=55}} His first venture as a freelance actor was ''[[The Amazing Quest of Ernest Bliss]]'' (1936), which was shot in England.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=89}} The film was a [[box office bomb]] and prompted Grant to reconsider his decision. Critical and commercial success with ''[[Suzy (film)|Suzy]]'' later that year in which he played a French airman opposite [[Jean Harlow]] and [[Franchot Tone]], led to him signing joint contracts with RKO and [[Columbia Pictures]], enabling him to choose the stories that he felt suited his acting style.{{sfn|Vermilye|1973|p=55}} His Columbia contract was a four-film deal over two years, guaranteeing him $50,000 each for the first two and $75,000 each for the others.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=42}} === 1937–1945: Hollywood stardom === In 1937, Grant began the first film under his contract with Columbia Pictures, ''[[When You're in Love (film)|When You're in Love]]'', portraying a wealthy American artist who eventually woos a famous opera singer ([[Grace Moore]]). His performance received positive feedback from critics, with Mae Tinee of ''[[The Chicago Daily Tribune]]'' describing it as the &quot;best thing he's done in a long time&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = http://www.carygrant.net/reviews/love.html |title = When You're In Love&amp;nbsp;– Reviews |publisher = Carygrant.net |access-date = April 2, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160402065803/http://www.carygrant.net/reviews/love.html |archive-date = April 2, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; After a commercial failure in his second RKO venture ''[[The Toast of New York]]'',{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=43}}&lt;ref name=&quot;rko&quot;&gt;Richard Jewel, 'RKO Film Grosses: 1931–1951', ''Historical Journal of Film, Radio and Television'', Vol 14 No 1, 1994 p. 57.&lt;/ref&gt; Grant was loaned to [[Hal Roach]]'s studio for ''[[Topper (film)|Topper]]'', a [[screwball comedy]] film distributed by [[MGM]], which became his first major comedy success.{{sfn|Vermilye|1973|p=58}} Grant played one half of a wealthy, freewheeling married couple with [[Constance Bennett]],&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = http://emanuellevy.com/comment/topper-1937-ghost-comedy-with-cary-grant-and-constance-bennett/ |title = Topper (1937): Ghost Comedy with Cary Grant and Constance Bennett |publisher = Emmanuellevy.com |date = August 3, 2014 |access-date = April 2, 2016 |first = Emanuel |last = Levy |author-link = Emanuel Levy |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160402084140/http://emanuellevy.com/comment/topper-1937-ghost-comedy-with-cary-grant-and-constance-bennett/ |archive-date = April 2, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; who wreak havoc on the world as ghosts after dying in a car accident.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/614613/Topper/articles.html |title = Topper (1937) |publisher = Turner Classic Movies |access-date = April 2, 2016 |first = Frank |last = Miller |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160402073600/http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/614613/Topper/articles.html |archive-date = April 2, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; ''Topper'' became one of the most popular movies of the year, with a critic from ''Variety'' noting that both Grant and Bennett &quot;do their assignments with great skill&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = https://variety.com/1936/film/reviews/topper-1200411301/ |title = Review: 'Topper' |work = Variety |date = December 31, 1936 |access-date = April 2, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160402081032/http://variety.com/1936/film/reviews/topper-1200411301/ |archive-date = April 2, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Vermilye described the film's success as &quot;a logical springboard&quot; for Grant to star in ''[[The Awful Truth]]'' that year,{{sfn|Vermilye|1973|p=60}} his first film made with [[Irene Dunne]] and [[Ralph Bellamy]]. Though director [[Leo McCarey]] reportedly disliked Grant,{{sfn|Wansell|2011|pp=48–49}} who had mocked the director by enacting his mannerisms in the film,{{sfn|Gehring|2005|p=152}} he recognized Grant's comic talents and encouraged him to improvise his lines and draw upon his skills developed in vaudeville.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|pp=48–49}} The film was a critical and commercial success and made Grant a top Hollywood star,{{sfnm|1a1=Vermilye|1y=1973|1p=61|2a1=Higham|2a2=Moseley|2y=1990|2p=103}} establishing a screen persona for him as a sophisticated light comedy leading man in screwball comedies.{{sfn|Gehring|2002|p=115}} [[File:Bringing up baby film still.jpg|thumb|right|upright|[[Katharine Hepburn]] and Grant in ''[[Bringing Up Baby]]'' (1938)]] ''The Awful Truth'' began what film critic [[Benjamin Schwarz (writer)|Benjamin Schwarz]] of ''[[The Atlantic]]'' later called &quot;the most spectacular run ever for an actor in American pictures&quot; for Grant.&lt;ref name=&quot;schwarz20070102&quot;&gt;{{cite news |url = https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/01/becoming-cary-grant/305548/ |title = Becoming Cary Grant |work = [[The Atlantic]] |date = January 2007 |access-date = April 9, 2016 |first = Benjamin |last = Schwarz |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160409073816/http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/01/becoming-cary-grant/305548/ |archive-date = April 9, 2016 |url-status=live |author-link = Benjamin Schwarz (writer) }}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1938, he starred opposite [[Katharine Hepburn]] in the screwball comedy ''[[Bringing Up Baby]]'', featuring a [[leopard]] and frequent bickering and verbal jousting between Grant and Hepburn.{{sfnm|1a1=Mast|1y=1988|1p=265|2a1=Karnick|2a2=Jenkins|2y=2013|2p=330}} He was initially uncertain how to play his character, but was told by director [[Howard Hawks]] to think of [[Harold Lloyd]].{{sfn|Mast|1988|p=294}} Grant was given more leeway in the comic scenes, the editing of the film and in educating Hepburn in the art of comedy.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=115}} Despite losing over $350,000 for RKO,{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=52}} the film earned rave reviews from critics.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/bringing_up_baby/ |title = Bringing Up Baby (1938) |website = Rotten Tomatoes |access-date = June 15, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615023058/https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/bringing_up_baby/ |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; He again appeared with Hepburn in the romantic comedy ''[[Holiday (1938 film)|Holiday]]'' later that year, which did not fare well commercially, to the point that Hepburn was considered to be &quot;box office poison&quot; at the time.{{sfn|Gehring|2002|p=123}} Despite a series of commercial failures, Grant was now more popular than ever and in high demand.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=53}} According to Vermilye, in 1939, Grant played roles that were more dramatic, albeit with comical undertones.{{sfn|Vermilye|1973|p=67}} He played a British army sergeant opposite [[Douglas Fairbanks Jr.]] in the [[George Stevens]]-directed adventure film ''[[Gunga Din (film)|Gunga Din]]'', set at a military station in [[British India|India]].{{sfnm|1a1=Wansell|1y=2011|1p=53|2a1=Mintz|2a2=Roberts|2a3=Welky|2y=2016|2p=144}}{{efn|The film was actually shot at [[Lone Pine, California]] in one of the largest sets ever assembled, with over 1,500 extras.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=54}}}} Roles as a pilot opposite [[Jean Arthur]] and [[Rita Hayworth]] in Hawks' ''[[Only Angels Have Wings]]'',{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=55}} and a wealthy landowner alongside [[Carole Lombard]] in ''[[In Name Only]]'' followed.{{sfn|Gehring|2003|p=188}} In 1940, Grant played a callous newspaper editor who learns that his ex-wife and former journalist, played by [[Rosalind Russell]], is to marry insurance officer Ralph Bellamy in Hawks' comedy ''[[His Girl Friday]]'',&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/206/His-Girl-Friday/full-synopsis.html |title = His Girl Friday (1940)&amp;nbsp;– Full Synopsis |publisher = Turner Classic Movies |access-date = June 10, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160610042834/http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/206/His-Girl-Friday/full-synopsis.html |archive-date = June 10, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; which was praised for its strong chemistry and &quot;great verbal athleticism&quot; between Grant and Russell.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|pp=59–60}}&lt;ref name=&quot;Guardian HGF&quot;&gt;{{cite news |url = https://www.theguardian.com/film/2010/oct/18/his-girl-friday-comedy |title = His Girl Friday: No 13 best comedy film of all time |first = Kilian |last = Fox |work = The Guardian |date = October 18, 2010 |access-date = June 6, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160613131740/https://www.theguardian.com/film/2010/oct/18/his-girl-friday-comedy |archive-date = June 13, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;{{efn|''His Girl Friday'' is ranked number 19 on [[American Film Institute]]'s [[AFI's 100 Years...100 Laughs|100 Years...100 Laughs]] and number 13 on ''The Guardian''{{'}}s list of the greatest comedy films of all time, compiled in 2010.&lt;ref name=&quot;AFI Laughs&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Guardian HGF&quot; /&gt;}} Grant reunited with Irene Dunne in ''[[My Favorite Wife]]'', a &quot;first rate comedy&quot; according to ''[[Life (magazine)|Life]]'' magazine,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |title = Life|url = https://books.google.com/books?id=0j8EAAAAMBAJ&amp;pg=PA55 |date = May 13, 1940 |publisher = Time Inc |page = 55 |issn = 0024-3019 }}&lt;/ref&gt; which became RKO's second biggest picture of the year, with profits of $505,000.{{sfn|Jewell|Harbin|1982|p=55}}{{efn|''Time'' claim that Grant himself earned $100,000 for the film.{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=143}}}} After playing a Virginian backwoodsman in ''[[The Howards of Virginia]]'', set during the American Revolution – which McCann considers to have been Grant's worst film and performance – {{sfn|McCann|1997|p=173}} his last film of the year was in the critically lauded romantic comedy ''[[The Philadelphia Story (film)|The Philadelphia Story]]'', in which he played the ex-husband of Hepburn's character.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/philadelphia_story |title = The Philadelphia Story (1940) |website = Rotten Tomatoes |access-date = June 15, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615023934/https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/philadelphia_story |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url = https://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9F04E0D71F3CE73ABC4F51DFB467838B659EDE |title = The Screen; A Splendid Cast Adorns the Screen Version of ''The Philadelphia Story'' at the Music Hall |work = The New York Times |date = December 27, 1940 |access-date = June 15, 2016 |first = Bosley |last = Crowther |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615022448/http://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9F04E0D71F3CE73ABC4F51DFB467838B659EDE |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=124}} Grant felt his performance was so strong that he was bitterly disappointed not to have received an Oscar nomination, especially since both his lead co-stars, Hepburn and [[James Stewart]], received them, with Stewart winning for Best Actor.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|pp=133, 135}} Grant joked &quot;I'd have to blacken my teeth first before the Academy will take me seriously&quot;.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|pp=133, 135}} Film historian David Thomson wrote that &quot;the wrong man got the Oscar&quot; for ''The Philadelphia Story'' and that &quot;Grant got better performances out of Hepburn than (her long-time companion) [[Spencer Tracy]] ever managed.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;David Thompson 1994, pg. 301&quot;&gt;Thomson, David, ''A Biographical Dictionary of Film'', Martin Secker and Warburg Ltd, London, 1994, p. 301.&lt;/ref&gt; Stewart's winning the Oscar &quot;was considered a gold-plated apology for his being robbed of the award&quot; for the previous year's ''[[Mr. Smith Goes to Washington]]''.&lt;ref name=&quot;auto&quot;&gt;Kinn, Gail, and Jim Piazza, &quot;The Academy Awards: The Complete History of Oscar&quot;, Black Dog and Leventhal Publishers, New York, 2002, p. 57.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Michael Gebert, ''The Encyclopedia of Movie Awards'', St. Martin's Paperbacks, New York, 1996, p. 96.&lt;/ref&gt; Grant's not being nominated for ''His Girl Friday'' the same year is also a &quot;sin of omission&quot; for the Oscars.&lt;ref name=&quot;auto&quot; /&gt; [[File:Cary Grant Joan Fontaine Suspicion.jpg|thumb|left|upright|With [[Joan Fontaine]] in ''[[Suspicion (1941 film)|Suspicion]]'' (1941)]] The following year Grant was considered for the [[Academy Award for Best Actor]] for ''[[Penny Serenade]]''—his first nomination from the academy. Wansell claims that Grant found the film to be an emotional experience, because he and wife-to-be [[Barbara Hutton]] had started to discuss having their own children.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=120}} Later that year he appeared in the romantic psychological thriller ''[[Suspicion (1941 film)|Suspicion]]'', the first of Grant's four collaborations with director [[Alfred Hitchcock]]. Grant did not warm to co-star [[Joan Fontaine]], finding her to be temperamental and unprofessional.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=122}} Film critic [[Bosley Crowther]] of ''The New York Times'' considered that Grant was &quot;provokingly irresponsible, boyishly gay and also oddly mysterious, as the role properly demands&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url = https://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9F06EFD6163AE233A25752C2A9679D946093D6CF |title = 'Suspicion' a Hitchcock Thriller, at Music Hall—'Shadow of Thin Man,' at Capitol—Errol Flynn as Gen. Caster at Strand |work = The New York Times |date = November 21, 1941 |access-date = June 7, 2016 |first = Bosley |last = Crowther |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160607051840/http://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9F06EFD6163AE233A25752C2A9679D946093D6CF |archive-date = June 7, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Hitchcock later stated that he thought the conventional happy ending of the film (with the wife discovering her husband is innocent rather than his being guilty and she letting him kill her with a glass of poisoned milk) &quot;a complete mistake because of making that story with Cary Grant. Unless you have a cynical ending it makes the story too simple&quot;.{{sfn|Chandler|2008|p=124}} Geoff Andrew of ''[[Time Out (magazine)|Time Out]]'' believes ''Suspicion'' served as &quot;a supreme example of Grant's ability to be simultaneously charming and sinister&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = https://www.timeout.com/london/film/suspicion |title = Suspicion |work = [[Time Out (magazine)|Time Out]] |access-date = June 7, 2016 |first = Geoff |last = Andrew |date = September 22, 2014 |author-link = Geoff Andrew |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160607052449/http://www.timeout.com/london/film/suspicion |archive-date = June 7, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1942, Grant participated in a three-week tour of the United States as part of a group to help the war effort and was photographed visiting wounded marines in hospital. He appeared in several routines of his own during these shows and often played the straight-man opposite [[Bert Lahr]].{{sfn|Deschner|1973|pp=12, 18}} In May 1942, when he was 38, the ten-minute propaganda short ''[[Road to Victory (1944 film)|Road to Victory]]'' was released, in which he appeared alongside [[Bing Crosby]], [[Frank Sinatra]] and [[Charles Ruggles]].{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=270}} On film, Grant played Leopold Dilg, a convict on the run in ''[[The Talk of the Town (1942 film)|The Talk of the Town]]'' (1942), who escapes after being wrongly convicted of arson and murder. He hides in a house with characters played by Jean Arthur and [[Ronald Colman]], and gradually plots to secure his freedom. Crowther praised the script, and noted that Grant played Dilg with a &quot;casualness which is slightly disturbing&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |first = Bosley |last = Crowther |url = https://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=950DE3DC1E3CE33BBC4051DFBE668389659EDE |title = 'The Talk of the Town,' a Smart Comedy, Starring Cary Grant, Ronald Colman, Jean Arthur, Arrives at the Music Hall |work = The New York Times |date = August 28, 1942 |access-date = June 6, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160613141724/http://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=950DE3DC1E3CE33BBC4051DFBE668389659EDE |archive-date = June 13, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; After a role as a foreign correspondent opposite [[Ginger Rogers]] and [[Walter Slezak]] in the off-beat comedy ''[[Once Upon a Honeymoon]]'',{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=132}} in which he was praised for his scenes with Rogers,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |first = Bosley |last = Crowther |url = https://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9403E6DF163DE13BBC4B52DFB7678389659EDE |title = 'Once Upon Honeymoon', With Ginger Rogers, Cary Grant, Opens at Music Hall&amp;nbsp;– ''Seven Sweethearts'' at the Capitol |work = The New York Times |date = November 13, 1942 |access-date = June 6, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160616001608/http://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9403E6DF163DE13BBC4B52DFB7678389659EDE |archive-date = June 16, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; he appeared in ''[[Mr. Lucky (film)|Mr. Lucky]]'' the following year, playing a gambler in a casino aboard a ship.{{sfn|Schickel|1998|pp=82–84}} The commercially successful submarine war film ''[[Destination Tokyo]]'' (1943) was shot in just six weeks in September and October, which left him exhausted;{{sfnm|1a1=Deschner|1y=1973|1p=12|2a1=Wansell|2y=2011|2p=138}} the reviewer from ''[[Newsweek]]'' thought it was one of the finest performances of his career.{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=169}} In 1944, Grant starred alongside [[Priscilla Lane]], [[Raymond Massey]] and [[Peter Lorre]],{{sfn|Bubbeo|2001|p=140}} in [[Frank Capra]]'s dark comedy ''[[Arsenic and Old Lace (film)|Arsenic and Old Lace]]'', playing the manic Mortimer Brewster, who belongs to a bizarre family that includes two murderous aunts and an uncle claiming to be President Teddy Roosevelt.{{sfn|Richards|2014|p=242}} Grant took up the role after it was originally offered to [[Bob Hope]], who turned it down owing to schedule conflicts.{{sfn|Mell|2005|p=21}} Grant found the macabre subject matter of the film difficult to contend with and believed that it was the worst performance of his career.{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=175–176}} That year he received his second Oscar nomination for a role, opposite [[Ethel Barrymore]] and [[Barry Fitzgerald]] in the [[Clifford Odets]]-directed film ''[[None but the Lonely Heart (film)|None but the Lonely Heart]]'', set in London during the Depression.&lt;ref name=&quot;CG44&quot;&gt;{{cite book |title = What's Happening in Hollywood: News of Current Pictures, Trends, and Production |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=sSEvAQAAIAAJ |year = 1944 |page = 7 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Late in the year he featured in the CBS Radio series ''[[Suspense (radio drama)#1942–1962|Suspense]]'', playing a tormented character who hysterically discovers that his amnesia has affected the masculine order in society in ''[[The Black Curtain]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |title = Cineaction! |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=Yx1AAQAAIAAJ |year = 1989 |publisher = CineAction Collective |page = 58 }}&lt;/ref&gt; === 1946–1953: Post-War success and slump === [[File:Cary Grant &amp; Ingrid Bergman Notorious.jpg|thumb|upright|right|Grant and [[Ingrid Bergman]] in ''[[Notorious (1946 film)|Notorious]]'' (1946)]] After making a brief cameo appearance opposite [[Claudette Colbert]] in ''[[Without Reservations]]'' (1946),{{sfn|Halliwell|Walker|2001|p=520}} Grant portrayed [[Cole Porter]] in the musical ''[[Night and Day (1946 film)|Night and Day]]'' (1946).{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=162}} The production proved to be problematic, with scenes often requiring multiple takes, frustrating the cast and crew.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=162}} Grant next appeared with [[Ingrid Bergman]] and [[Claude Rains]] in the Hitchcock-directed film ''[[Notorious (1946 film)|Notorious]]'' (1946), playing a government agent who recruits the American daughter of a convicted Nazi spy (Bergman) to infiltrate a Nazi organization in Brazil after World War II.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |title = Woman's Home Companion |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=Cz1aAAAAYAAJ |date = 1946 |publisher = Crowell-Collier Publishing Company |page = 11 }}&lt;/ref&gt; During the course of the film Grant and Bergman's characters fall in love and share one of the longest kisses in film history at around two and a half minutes.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |title=Notorius |journal = New York |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=j-ICAAAAMBAJ&amp;pg=PA107 |date = October 11, 1982 |publisher = New York Media, LLC |page = 107 |issn = 0028-7369 }}&lt;/ref&gt;{{sfn|Connolly|2014|p=215}} Wansell notes how Grant's performance &quot;underlined how far his unique qualities as a screen actor had matured in the years since ''The Awful Truth''&quot;.{{sfn|Wansell|1996|p=99}} In 1947, Grant played an artist who becomes involved in a court case when charged with assault in the comedy ''[[The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer]]'' (released in the U.K. as &quot;Bachelor Knight&quot;), opposite [[Myrna Loy]] and [[Shirley Temple]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |title = The New Yorker |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=VL0LAQAAIAAJ |date = July 1947 |publisher = F-R Publishing Corporation |page = 47 }}&lt;/ref&gt;{{sfn|Leider|2011|p=265}} The film was praised by the critics, who admired the picture's [[slapstick]] qualities and chemistry between Grant and Loy;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = https://variety.com/1946/film/reviews/the-bachelor-and-the-bobby-soxer-1200414998/ |title = The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer |work = Variety |date = December 31, 1946 |access-date = June 6, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160614141316/http://variety.com/1946/film/reviews/the-bachelor-and-the-bobby-soxer-1200414998/ |archive-date = June 14, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; it became one of the biggest-selling films at the box office that year.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=195}} Later that year he starred opposite [[David Niven]] and [[Loretta Young]] in the comedy ''[[The Bishop's Wife]]'', playing an angel who is sent down from heaven to straighten out the relationship between the bishop (Niven) and his wife (Loretta Young).&lt;ref name=&quot;Life48&quot; /&gt; The film was a major commercial and critical success, and was nominated for five Academy Awards.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=194}} ''Life'' magazine called it &quot;intelligently written and competently acted&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Life48&quot;&gt;{{cite book |title = Life |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=mVIEAAAAMBAJ&amp;pg=PA71 |date = January 12, 1948 |publisher = Time Inc |page = 71 |issn = 0024-3019 }}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Cary Grant Myrna Loy Mr Blandings Builds His Dream House 1948.JPG|thumb|left|upright|Grant and [[Myrna Loy]] publicity photo for ''[[Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House]]'' (1948)]] The following year, Grant played neurotic Jim Blandings, the title-sake in the comedy ''[[Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House]]'', again with Loy. Though the film lost money for RKO,{{sfn|Leider|2011|p=226}} [[Philip T. Hartung]] of ''Commonweal'' thought that Grant's role as the &quot;frustrated advertising man&quot; was one of his best screen portrayals.{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=196}} In ''[[Every Girl Should Be Married]]'', an &quot;airy comedy&quot;, he appeared with Betsy Drake and [[Franchot Tone]], playing a bachelor who is trapped into marriage by Drake's conniving character.&lt;ref name=&quot;Maltin1995&quot;&gt;{{cite book |last = Maltin |first = Leonard |title = Leonard Maltin's Movie and Video Guide |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=-R8IAQAAMAAJ |year = 1995 |publisher = Plume |page = 391 |isbn = 978-0-452-27327-6 }}&lt;/ref&gt; He finished the year as the fourth most popular film star at the box office.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=212}} In 1949, Grant starred alongside [[Ann Sheridan]] in the comedy ''[[I Was a Male War Bride]]'' in which he appeared in scenes dressed as a woman, wearing a skirt and a wig.{{sfn|Benshoff|Griffin|2011|p=348}} During the filming he was taken ill with infectious [[hepatitis]] and lost weight, affecting the way he looked in the picture.{{sfn|Erickson|2012|p=274}} The film, based on the autobiography of Belgian [[Belgian Resistance|resistance fighter]] [[Roger Charlier]], proved to be successful, becoming the highest-grossing film for 20th Century Fox that year with over $4.5&amp;nbsp;million in takings and being likened to Hawks's screwball comedies of the late 1930s.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=195}} By this point he was one of the highest paid Hollywood stars, commanding $300,000 per picture.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=163}} The early 1950s marked the beginning of a slump in Grant's career.&lt;ref name=&quot;TCMDW&quot; /&gt;{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=192}} His roles as a top brain surgeon who is caught in the middle of a bitter revolution in a Latin American country in ''[[Crisis (1950 film)|Crisis]]'',{{sfn|Hanson|Dunkleberger|1999|p=509}} and as a medical-school professor and orchestra conductor opposite [[Jeanne Crain]] in ''[[People Will Talk]]'' were poorly received.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |title = The Screen In Review; 'Crisis,' With Cary Grant and Jose Ferrer, Is New Feature at the Capitol Theatre |first = Bosley |last = Crowther |work = The New York Times |date = July 4, 1950 |url = https://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9F01E2DE103FE23BBC4C53DFB166838B649EDE |access-date = June 5, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160611161248/http://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9F01E2DE103FE23BBC4C53DFB166838B649EDE |archive-date = June 11, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite book |title = The New Yorker |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=UaAeAQAAMAAJ |date = August 2009 |publisher = New Yorker Magazine|page = 16 }}&lt;/ref&gt;{{sfn|Deschner|1973|pp=207–209}} Grant had become tired of being Cary Grant after twenty years, being successful, wealthy and popular, and remarked: &quot;To play yourself, your ''true'' self, is the hardest thing in the world&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=197}} In 1952, Grant starred in the comedy ''[[Room for One More (film)|Room for One More]]'', playing an engineer husband who with his wife ([[Betsy Drake]]) adopt two children from an orphanage.{{sfn|Wansell|1996|p=116}}&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |title = Orange Coast Magazine |journal = Orange Coast|url = https://books.google.com/books?id=4GAEAAAAMBAJ&amp;pg=PA296 |date = December 1987 |publisher = Emmis Communications |page = 296 |issn = 0279-0483 }}&lt;/ref&gt; He reunited with Howard Hawks to film the off-beat comedy ''[[Monkey Business (1952 film)|Monkey Business]]'', co-starring Ginger Rogers and [[Marilyn Monroe]].{{sfn|Shevey|1990|p=204}} Though the critic from ''[[Motion Picture Herald]]'' wrote gushingly that Grant had given a career's best with an &quot;extraordinary and agile performance&quot;, which was matched by Rogers,{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=214}} it received a mixed reception overall.{{efn|Critical response to the film at the time was mixed. Bosley Crowther wrote: &quot;It is simply a concoction of crazy, fast, uninhibited farce. This sort of thing, when done well—as it generally is, in this case—can be insanely funny (if it hits right). It can also be a bore.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |first = Bosley |last = Crowther |url = https://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9A0DE5DC133AE23BBC4E53DFBF668389649EDE |title = The Screen In Review; 'Monkey Business,' a 'Screwball Comedy' With a Chimpanzee, Starts Run at the Roxy |work = The New York Times |date = September 6, 1952 |access-date = June 6, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160611161011/http://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9A0DE5DC133AE23BBC4E53DFBF668389649EDE |archive-date = June 11, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;}} Grant had hoped that starring opposite [[Deborah Kerr]] in the romantic comedy ''[[Dream Wife]]'' would salvage his career,&lt;ref name=&quot;TCMDW&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url = http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article/76183%7C76199/Dream-Wife.html |title = Dream Wife&amp;nbsp;– Article |publisher = Turner Classic Movies |access-date = June 11, 2016 |first = Margarita |last = Landazuri |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160614141023/http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article/76183%7C76199/Dream-Wife.html |archive-date = June 14, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; but it was a critical and financial failure upon release in July 1953, when Grant was 49. Though he was offered the leading part in ''[[A Star is Born (1954 film)|A Star is Born]]'', Grant decided against playing that character. He believed that his film career was over, and briefly left the industry.{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=211–212}} === 1955–1966: Film resurgence and final roles === In 1955, Grant agreed to star opposite [[Grace Kelly]] in ''[[To Catch a Thief]]'', playing a retired jewel thief named John Robie, nicknamed &quot;The Cat&quot;, living in the [[French Riviera]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/4285/To-Catch-a-Thief/full-synopsis.html |title = To Catch a Thief&amp;nbsp;– Full Synopsis |publisher = Turner Classic Movies |access-date = June 9, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160609005039/http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/4285/To-Catch-a-Thief/full-synopsis.html |archive-date = June 9, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Grant and Kelly worked well together during the production, which was one of the most enjoyable experiences of Grant's career. He found Hitchcock and Kelly to be very professional,{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=214}} and later stated that Kelly was &quot;possibly the finest actress I've ever worked with&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;86interview&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url = http://www.carygrant.net/articles/few%20words.htm |title = A Few Words with Cary Grant |work = [[The Dallas Morning News]] |first = Philip |last = Wuntch |date = March 20, 1986 |access-date = June 9, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160611160350/http://www.carygrant.net/articles/few%20words.htm |archive-date = June 11, 2016 |url-status=live |via = Carygrant.net }} {{Open access}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{efn|Grant also continued to find the experience of working with Hitchcock a positive one, remarking: &quot;Hitch and I had a rapport and understanding deeper than words. He was a very agreeable human being, and we were very compatible&amp;nbsp;... Nothing ever went wrong. He was so incredibly well prepared. I never know anyone as capable&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=214}}}} Grant was one of the first actors to go independent by not renewing his studio contract,{{sfn|Prono|2008|p=127}} effectively leaving the [[studio system]], which almost completely controlled all aspects of an actor's life.{{sfn|Hollinger|2013|p=42}} He decided which films he was going to appear in, often had personal choice of directors and co-stars, and at times negotiated a share of the gross revenue, something uncommon at the time.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=218}} Grant received more than $700,000 for his 10% of the gross of the successful ''To Catch a Thief'', while Hitchcock received less than $50,000 for directing and producing it.{{sfn|Hodgins|1957|p=146}} Though critical reception to the overall film was mixed, Grant received high praise for his performance, with critics commenting on his suave, handsome appearance in the film.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=218}} [[File:Cary Grant, actor USA, at Kastrup Airport.jpg|thumb|right|upright|Grant in 1956]] In 1957, Grant starred opposite [[Deborah Kerr]] in the romance ''[[An Affair to Remember]]'', playing an international playboy who becomes the object of her affections. Schickel sees the film as one of the definitive romantic pictures of the period, but remarks that Grant was not entirely successful in trying to supersede the film's &quot;gushing sentimentality&quot;.{{sfn|Schickel|1998|p=112}} That year, Grant also appeared opposite [[Sophia Loren]] in ''[[The Pride and the Passion]]''. He had expressed an interest in playing [[William Holden]]'s character in ''[[The Bridge on the River Kwai]]'' at the time, but found that it was not possible because of his commitment to ''The Pride and the Passion''.{{sfn|Schickel|1998|p=109}} The film was shot on location in Spain and was problematic, with co-star [[Frank Sinatra]] irritating his colleagues and leaving the production after just a few weeks.{{sfn|Leigh|2015|p=236}} Although Grant had an affair with Loren during filming, Grant's attempts to woo Loren to marry him during the production proved fruitless,{{efn|Loren later professed about rejecting Grant: &quot;At the time I didn't have any regrets, I was in love with my husband. I was very affectionate with Cary, but I was 23 years old. I couldn't make up my mind to marry a giant from another country and leave Carlo. I didn't feel like making the big step.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Thorpe&quot;&gt;{{cite news |first = Vanessa |last = Thorpe |url = https://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/oct/19/sophia-loren-reveals-the-story-of-cary-grants-passion |title = Sophia Loren: how Cary Grant begged me to become his lover |work = The Guardian |date = October 19, 2014 |access-date = June 5, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160611160014/https://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/oct/19/sophia-loren-reveals-the-story-of-cary-grants-passion |archive-date = June 11, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;}} which led to him expressing anger when Paramount cast her opposite him in ''[[Houseboat (film)|Houseboat]]'' (1958) as part of her contract.{{sfn|Higham|Moseley|1990|p=254}} The sexual tension between the two was so great during the making of ''Houseboat'' that the producers found it almost impossible to make.&lt;ref name=&quot;Thorpe&quot; /&gt; Later in 1958, Grant starred opposite Bergman in the romantic comedy ''[[Indiscreet (1958 film)|Indiscreet]]'', playing a successful financier who has an affair with a famous actress (Bergman) while pretending to be a married man.{{sfn|Chandler|2007|p=214}} During the filming he formed a closer friendship and gained new respect for her as an actress.{{sfn|Higham|Moseley|1990|p=266}} Schickel stated that he thought the film was possibly the finest romantic comedy film of the era, and that Grant himself had professed that it was one of his personal favorites.{{sfn|Schickel|1998|p=115}} Grant received his first of five [[Golden Globe Award for Best Actor&amp;nbsp;– Motion Picture Musical or Comedy]] nominations for his performance and finished the year as the most popular film star at the box office.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=212}} [[File:North by Northwest Cary Grant airplane chase.jpg|thumb|right|upright|Grant chased by the crop duster during ''North by Northwest'' (1959)]] In 1959, Grant starred in the Hitchcock-directed film ''[[North by Northwest]]'', playing an advertising executive who becomes embroiled in a case of mistaken identity. Like ''Indiscreet'',&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |author-link = A. H. Weiler |first = A. H. |last = Weiler |url = https://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9407E2DA163EE43BBC4F51DFB0668383649EDE |title = The Screen: 'Indiscreet'; Film at Music Hall Is Airy as a Souffle |work = The New York Times |date = June 27, 1958 |access-date = June 12, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160612060619/http://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9407E2DA163EE43BBC4F51DFB0668383649EDE |archive-date = June 12, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = https://variety.com/1957/film/reviews/indiscreet-2-1200419114/ |title = Review: 'Indiscreet' |work = Variety |date = December 31, 1957 |access-date = June 12, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160612060731/http://variety.com/1957/film/reviews/indiscreet-2-1200419114/ |archive-date = June 12, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; it was warmly received by the critics and was a major commercial success,{{sfnm|1a1=Higham|1a2=Moseley|1y=1990|1p=277|2a1=Morecambe|2a2=Sterling|2y=2001|2p=242}} and is now often listed as one of the greatest films of all time.{{efn|''North by Northwest'' is placed at the 41st position on AFI's 100 Years...100 Movies,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = http://www.afi.com/100Years/movies.aspx |title = AFI's 100 Greatest American Movies Of All Time |publisher = American Film Institute |access-date = June 11, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160611142910/http://www.afi.com/100Years/movies.aspx |archive-date = June 11, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; 7th on its 100 Years...100 Thrills list,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = http://www.afi.com/100Years/thrills.aspx |title = AFI's Most Thrilling American Films |publisher = American Film Institute |access-date = June 11, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160611142759/http://www.afi.com/100Years/thrills.aspx |archive-date = June 11, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; and was voted the 7th greatest [[mystery film]] in its 10 Top 10 mystery films list.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = http://www.afi.com/10top10/category.aspx?cat=5 |title = AFI's 10 Top 10&amp;nbsp;– Mystery |publisher = American Film Institute |access-date = June 11, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160611143148/http://www.afi.com/10top10/category.aspx?cat=5 |archive-date = June 11, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;}} Weiler, writing in ''The New York Times'', praised Grant's performance, remarking that the actor &quot;was never more at home than in this role of the advertising-man-on-the-lam&quot; and handled the role &quot;with professional aplomb and grace&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |first = A. H. |last = Weiler |url = https://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9404E7D91631EE3BBC4F53DFBE668382649EDE |title = Hitchcock Takes Suspenseful Cook's Tour; ' North by Northwest' Opens at Music Hall |work = The New York Times |date = August 7, 1959 |access-date = June 11, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160422100726/http://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9404E7D91631EE3BBC4F53DFBE668382649EDE |archive-date = April 22, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Grant wore one of his most well-known suits in the film, which became very popular, a fourteen-gauge, mid-gray, subtly plaid, worsted wool that was custom-made on [[Savile Row]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/cary-grant-gentleman-style/ |title = Cary Grant&amp;nbsp;– Gentleman of Style |publisher = Gentleman's Gazette |date = October 27, 2014 |access-date = June 16, 2016 |first = J. A. |last = Shapira |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160616093913/https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/cary-grant-gentleman-style/ |archive-date = June 16, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url = https://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/mens-style/6647/why-it-works-cary-grant-in-north-by-northwest.html |title = Why it works: Cary Grant in North by Northwest |work = [[The Daily Telegraph]] |date = September 20, 2013 |access-date = June 16, 2016 |first = Mansel |last = Fletcher |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160616093943/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/mens-style/6647/why-it-works-cary-grant-in-north-by-northwest.html |archive-date = June 16, 2016 |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt; Grant finished the year playing a U.S. Navy submarine skipper opposite [[Tony Curtis]] in the comedy ''[[Operation Petticoat]]''.{{sfn|Erickson|2012|p=202}} The reviewer from ''Daily Variety'' saw Grant's comic portrayal as a classic example of how to attract the laughter of the audience without lines, remarking that &quot;In this film, most of the gags play off him. It is his reaction, blank, startled, etc., always underplayed, that creates or releases the humor&quot;.{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=247}} The film was major box office success, and in 1973, Deschner ranked the film as the highest earning film of Grant's career at the US box office, with takings of $9.5&amp;nbsp;million.{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=274}} In 1960, Grant appeared opposite [[Deborah Kerr]], [[Robert Mitchum]], and [[Jean Simmons]] in ''[[The Grass Is Greener]]'', which was shot in England at [[Osterley Park]] and [[Shepperton Studios]].{{sfn|Silverman|1996|p=279}} McCann notes that Grant took great relish in &quot;mocking his aristocratic character's over-refined tastes and mannerisms&quot;,{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=223}} though the film was panned and was seen as his worst since ''Dream Wife''.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=247}} In 1962, Grant starred in the romantic comedy ''[[That Touch of Mink]]'', playing suave, wealthy businessman Philip Shayne romantically involved with an office worker, played by [[Doris Day]]. He invites her to his apartment in [[Bermuda]], but her guilty conscience begins to take hold.{{sfn|Grindon|2011|p=35}} The picture was praised by critics, and it received three Academy Award nominations and won the [[Golden Globe Award for Best Motion Picture&amp;nbsp;– Musical or Comedy|Golden Globe Award for Best Comedy Picture]],{{sfn|Messina|2012|p=62}} in addition to landing Grant another Golden Globe Award nomination for Best Actor.{{sfn|McGee|2005|p=155}} Deschner ranked the film as the second highest grossing of Grant's career.{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=274}} [[File:Audrey Hepburn and Cary Grant 1.jpg|thumb|right|upright|Grant and [[Audrey Hepburn]] in ''[[Charade (1963 film)|Charade]]'' (1963)]] Producers [[Albert R. Broccoli]] and [[Harry Saltzman]] originally sought Grant for the role of [[James Bond (literary character)|James Bond]] in ''[[Dr. No (film)|Dr. No]]'' (1962) but discarded the idea as Grant would be committed to only one feature film; therefore, the producers decided to go after someone who could be part of a franchise after [[James Mason]] would only agree to commit to three films.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last = Holpuch |first = Amanda |title = How Cary Grant Nearly Made Global James Bond Day an American Affair |url = https://www.theguardian.com/film/us-news-blog/2012/oct/05/cary-grant-global-james-bond-day |work = The Guardian |date = October 5, 2012 |access-date = August 24, 2018|archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160617002627/https://www.theguardian.com/film/us-news-blog/2012/oct/05/cary-grant-global-james-bond-day |archive-date = June 17, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1963, Grant appeared in his last typically suave, romantic role opposite [[Audrey Hepburn]] in ''[[Charade (1963 film)|Charade]]''.{{sfn|Monaco|1992|p=121}} Grant found the experience of working with Hepburn &quot;wonderful&quot; and believed that their close relationship was clear on camera,{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=228}} though according to Hepburn, he was particularly worried during the filming that he would be criticized for being far too old for her and seen as a &quot;cradle snatcher&quot;.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=254}} Author Chris Barsanti writes: &quot;It's the film's canny flirtatiousness that makes it such ingenious entertainment. Grant and Hepburn play off each other like the pros that they are&quot;.{{sfn|Barsanti|2010|p=124}} The film, well received by the critics,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1003883-charade/ |title = Charade (1963) |website = Rotten Tomatoes |access-date = June 11, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160611151117/https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1003883-charade/ |archive-date = June 11, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; is often called &quot;the best Hitchcock film Hitchcock never made&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;EmpireIanNathan&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url = https://www.empireonline.com/movies/charade/review/ |title = Charade Review |work = [[Empire (film magazine)|Empire]] |date = October 14, 2015 |access-date = June 11, 2016 |first = Ian |last = Nathan |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160611151123/http://www.empireonline.com/movies/charade/review/ |archive-date = June 11, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = http://player.bfi.org.uk/film/watch-charade-1963/ |title = Charade (1963) |publisher = British Film Institute |access-date = June 11, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160611151940/http://player.bfi.org.uk/film/watch-charade-1963/ |archive-date = June 11, 2016 |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt;{{sfn|Esquith|2007|p=210}} In 1964, Grant changed from his typically suave, distinguished screen persona to play a grizzled beachcomber who is coerced into serving as a [[coastwatcher]] on an uninhabited island in the World War II romantic comedy ''[[Father Goose (film)|Father Goose]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |title = Life |url = https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_kFEEAAAAMBAJ |date = December 18, 1964 |publisher = Time Inc |page = [https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_kFEEAAAAMBAJ/page/n108 99] |issn = 0024-3019 }}&lt;/ref&gt; The film was a major commercial success, and upon its release at Radio City at Christmas 1964 it took over $210,000 at the box-office in the first week, breaking the record set by ''Charade'' the previous year.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=263}} Grant's final film, ''[[Walk, Don't Run (film)|Walk, Don't Run]]'' (1966), a comedy co-starring [[Jim Hutton]] and [[Samantha Eggar]], was shot on location in Tokyo,{{sfn|Vermilye|1973|p=139}} and is set amid the backdrop of the housing shortage of the [[1964 Tokyo Olympics]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Inc1966&quot;&gt;{{cite magazine |title = Will Cary Never Lose His Cool? |magazine = Life |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=qlUEAAAAMBAJ&amp;pg=PA11 |date = August 19, 1966 |page = 11 |issn = 0024-3019 }}&lt;/ref&gt; ''Newsweek'' concluded: &quot;Though Grant's personal presence is indispensable, the character he plays is almost wholly superfluous. Perhaps the inference to be taken is that a man in his 50s or 60s has no place in romantic comedy except as a catalyst. If so, the chemistry is wrong for everyone&quot;.{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=268}} Hitchcock had asked Grant to star in ''[[Torn Curtain]]'' that year, only to learn that he had decided to retire.{{sfn|Coffin|2014|p=175}} == Later years == [[File:Cary Grant 2 Allan Warren.jpg|thumb|right|upright|Grant at 69 in 1973]] In 1966, when his daughter [[Jennifer Grant]] was born, Grant retired from the screen so he could focus on bringing her up and to provide a sense of permanence and stability in her life.{{sfn|Wansell|1996|p=255}} He had become increasingly disillusioned with cinema in the 1960s, rarely finding a script of which he approved. He remarked: &quot;I could have gone on acting and playing a grandfather or a bum, but I discovered more important things in life&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=233}} He knew after he had made ''Charade'' that the &quot;Golden Age&quot; of Hollywood was over.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=259}} Grant expressed little interest in making a career comeback, and would respond to the suggestion with &quot;fat chance&quot;.{{sfnm|1a1=McCann|1y=1997|1p=265|2a1=Moore|2y=2009|2p=148}} He did, however, briefly appear in the audience for [[Elvis Presley]]'s 1970 Las Vegas concert documentary ''[[Elvis: That's the Way It Is]]''.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=295}} In the 1970s, he was given the negatives from a number of his films, and he sold them to television for a sum of over $2&amp;nbsp;million dollars in 1975 {{USDCY|2000000|1975}}.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=294}} Morecambe and Stirling argue that Grant's absence from film after 1966 was not because he had &quot;irrevocably turned his back on the film industry,&quot; but because he was &quot;caught between a decision made and the temptation to eat a bit of humble pie and re-announce himself to the cinema-going public&quot;.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|pp=295–296}} In the 1970s, MGM was keen on remaking ''[[Grand Hotel (1932 film)|Grand Hotel]]'' (1932) and hoped to lure Grant out of retirement. Hitchcock had long wanted to make a film based on the idea of ''Hamlet'', with Grant in the lead role.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=296}} Grant stated that [[Warren Beatty]] had made a big effort to get him to play the role of Mr. Jordan in ''[[Heaven Can Wait (1978 film)|Heaven Can Wait]]'' (1978), which eventually went to James Mason.&lt;ref name=&quot;86interview&quot; /&gt; Morecambe and Stirling claim that Grant had also expressed an interest in appearing in ''[[A Touch of Class (film)|A Touch of Class]]'' (1973), ''[[The Verdict]]'' (1982), and a film adaptation of [[William Goldman]]'s 1983 book about screenwriting, ''[[Adventures in the Screen Trade]]''.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|pp=295–296}} In the late 1970s and early '80s, Grant became troubled by the deaths of many close friends, including [[Howard Hughes]] in 1976, [[Howard Hawks]] in 1977, [[Lord Mountbatten]] and Barbara Hutton in 1979, Alfred Hitchcock in 1980, Grace Kelly and Ingrid Bergman in 1982, and [[David Niven]] in 1983. At the [[Funeral of Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma|funeral of Mountbatten]], he was quoted as remarking to a friend: &quot;I'm absolutely pooped, and I'm so goddamned old. ...I'm going to quit all next year. I'm going to lie in bed... I shall just close all doors, turn off the telephone, and enjoy my life&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=264}} Grace Kelly's death was the hardest on him, as it was unexpected and the two had remained close friends after filming ''To Catch a Thief''.{{efn|[[Prince Rainier of Monaco]], Kelly's widower, said: &quot;Grace loved and admired Cary. She valued his friendship&quot;.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=319}}}} Grant visited Monaco three or four times each year during his retirement,{{sfnm|1a1=Morecambe|1a2=Sterling|1y=2001|1p=319|2a1=Grant|2y=2011|2p=52}} and showed his support for Kelly by joining the board of the [[Princess Grace Foundation]].{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=319}} In 1980, the [[Los Angeles County Museum of Art]] put on a two-month retrospective of more than 40 of Grant's films.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=265}} In 1982, he was honored with the &quot;Man of the Year&quot; award by the [[New York Friars Club]] at the [[Waldorf-Astoria Hotel]].{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=299}} He turned 80 on January 18, 1984, and [[Peter Bogdanovich]] noticed that a &quot;serenity&quot; had come over him.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=273}} Grant was in good health until he had a mild stroke in October that year.{{sfn|Donnelley|2003|p=292}} In the last few years of his life, he undertook tours of the United States in the one-man show ''A Conversation with Cary Grant'', in which he would show clips from his films and answer audience questions.{{sfn|Trachtenberg|Jaynes|2004}}&lt;ref name=&quot;Decker, Cathleen&quot;&gt;{{cite news |first = Cathleen |last = Decker |url = https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-12-04-me-1412-story.html |title = Cary Grant Will Leaves Bulk of Estate to His Widow, Daughter |work = [[Los Angeles Times]] |date = December 4, 1986 |access-date = June 8, 2012 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615101404/http://articles.latimes.com/1986-12-04/local/me-1412_1_cary-grant |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; He made some 36 public appearances in his last four years, from New Jersey to Texas, and his audiences ranged from elderly film buffs to enthusiastic college students discovering his films for the first time. Grant admitted that the appearances were &quot;ego-fodder&quot;, remarking that &quot;I know who I am inside and outside, but it's nice to have the outside, at least, substantiated&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=270}} == Business interests == [[File:North by Northwest stars pose at Rushmore.jpg|thumb|right|upright|[[James Mason]], [[Eva Marie Saint]] and Grant at [[Mount Rushmore]] during ''North by Northwest'' (1959)]] Stirling refers to Grant as &quot;one of the shrewdest businessmen ever to operate in Hollywood&quot;.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=xviii}} His long-term friendship with Howard Hughes from the 1930s onward saw him invited into the most glamorous circles in Hollywood and their lavish parties.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=84}} Biographers Morecambe and Stirling state that Hughes played a major role in the development of Grant's business interests so that by 1939, he was &quot;already an astute operator with various commercial interests&quot;.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|pp=97–98}} Scott also played a role, encouraging Grant to invest his money in shares, making him a wealthy man by the end of the 1930s.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=53}} In the 1940s, Grant and Barbara Hutton invested heavily in real estate development in [[Acapulco]] at a time when it was little more than a fishing village,{{sfn|Higham|Moseley|1990|p=152}} and teamed up with [[Richard Widmark]], [[Roy Rogers]], and [[Red Skelton]] to buy a hotel there.{{sfn|Foster|Foster|2000|p=96}} Behind his business interests was a particularly intelligent mind, to the point that his friend David Niven once said: &quot;Before computers went into general release, Cary had one in his brain&quot;.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|pp=97–98}} Film critic [[David Thomson (film critic)|David Thomson]] believes that Grant's intelligence came across on screen, and stated that &quot;no one else looked so good and so intelligent at the same time&quot;.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=200}} After Grant retired from the screen, he became more active in business. He accepted a position on the board of directors at [[Fabergé (cosmetics)|Fabergé]].{{sfn|Bernstein|Hamm|Rubini|2011|p=211}} This position was not honorary, as some had assumed; Grant regularly attended meetings and traveled internationally to support them.{{sfnm|1a1=Wansell|1y=1996|1p=277|2a1=Guttman|2y=2015|2p=13}} His pay was modest in comparison to the millions of his film career, a salary of a reported $15,000 a year.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=289}} Such was Grant's influence on the company that [[George Barrie]] once claimed that Grant had played a role in the growth of the firm to annual revenues of about $50&amp;nbsp;million in 1968, a growth of nearly 80% since the inaugural year in 1964.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=243}} The position also permitted the use of a private plane, which Grant could use to fly to see his daughter wherever her mother, Dyan Cannon, was working.{{sfn|Roberts|2014|p=103}} In 1975, Grant was an appointed director of MGM. In 1980, he sat on the board of MGM Films and MGM Grand Hotels following the division of the parent company. He played an active role in the promotion of [[MGM Grand Las Vegas|MGM Grand Hotel]] in Las Vegas when opened in 1973, and he continued to promote the city throughout the 1970s.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=290}} When [[Allan Warren]] met Grant for a photo shoot that year he noticed how tired Grant looked, and his &quot;slightly melancholic air&quot;.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|pp=292–293}} Grant later joined the boards of [[Pinnacle Entertainment|Hollywood Park]], the Academy of Magical Arts ([[The Magic Castle]], Hollywood, California), and Western Airlines (acquired by [[Delta Air Lines]] in 1987).{{sfn|Trachtenberg|Jaynes|2004}}&lt;ref name=&quot;Fristoe&quot;&gt;{{cite news |url = http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article/76185%7C0/Cary-Grant-A-Class-Apart.html |title =Synopsis of documentary &quot;Cary Grant: A Class Apart&quot; |publisher = Turner Classic Movies |access-date = June 15, 2016 |first = Roger |last = Fristoe |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615101410/http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article/76185%7C0/Cary-Grant-A-Class-Apart.html |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; == Personal life == [[File:Cary Grant and Margaux Hemingway, 1976.jpg|thumb|right|upright|With friend [[Margaux Hemingway]] in 1976]] Grant became a [[naturalized United States citizen]] on June 26, 1942, aged 38, at which time he also legally changed his name to Cary Grant.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = http://www.carygrant.net/faq.html |title = Frequently asked questions |publisher = Carygrant.net |access-date = May 21, 2013 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615095930/http://www.carygrant.net/faq.html |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url = https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2005/05/24/DI2005052400695.html |title = Barbara Grant Jaynes and Robert Trachtenberg – Live Q&amp;As transcript |date = May 26, 2005 |newspaper = The Washington Post |access-date = January 27, 2017 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20170128170559/http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2005/05/24/DI2005052400695.html |archive-date = January 28, 2017 |url-status=live |quote = Barbara Grant Jaynes: He lived in this country from when he was 16 years old... He also became an American citizen in 1942. }}&lt;/ref&gt; At the time of his naturalization, he listed his middle name as Alexander rather than Alec.&lt;ref name=McCarthy&gt;{{cite web |first = Andy |last = McCarthy |url = https://www.nypl.org/blog/2016/07/01/us-immigration-history |title = A Brief Passage in U.S. Immigration History |website =[[New York Public Library]]|date = July 1, 2016 |access-date = March 17, 2017 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20170415152437/https://www.nypl.org/blog/2016/07/01/us-immigration-history |archive-date = April 15, 2017 }}&lt;/ref&gt; One of the wealthiest stars in Hollywood, Grant owned houses in [[Beverly Hills]], [[Malibu, California|Malibu]], and [[Palm Springs]].{{sfn|Govoni|1973|p=207}} He was immaculate in his personal grooming, and [[Edith Head]], the renowned Hollywood costume designer, appreciated his &quot;meticulous&quot; attention to detail and considered him to have had the greatest fashion sense of any actor she had worked with.{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=178–179}} McCann attributed his &quot;almost obsessive maintenance&quot; with tanning, which deepened the older he got,{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=23}} to Douglas Fairbanks, who also had a major influence on his refined sense of dress.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=67}} McCann notes that because Grant came from a working-class background and was not well educated, he made a particular effort over the course of his career to mix with high society and absorb their knowledge, manners, and etiquette.{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=64–65}} His image was meticulously crafted from the early days in Hollywood, where he would frequently sunbathe; he avoided being photographed smoking despite smoking two packs a day at the time.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=32}} Grant quit smoking in the early 1950s through [[hypnotherapy]].{{sfn|Wansell|1996|p=122}} He remained health-conscious, staying very trim and athletic even into his late career, though he claimed that he &quot;never crook[ed] a finger to keep fit&quot;,{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=143}} saying that he did &quot;everything in moderation. Except making love.&quot;{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=317}} Grant's daughter Jennifer said that her father made hundreds of friends from all walks of life, and that their house was frequently visited by the likes of Frank and [[Barbara Sinatra]], [[Quincy Jones]], [[Gregory Peck]] and his wife [[Veronique Peck|Veronique]], [[Johnny Carson]] and his wife, [[Kirk Kerkorian]], and [[Merv Griffin]]. She said that Grant and Sinatra were the closest of friends, that the two men had a similar radiance and &quot;indefinable incandescence of charm&quot;, and that they were eternally &quot;high on life&quot;.{{sfn|Grant|2011|p=43}} While raising Jennifer, Grant archived artifacts of her childhood and adolescence in a bank-quality, room-sized vault he had installed in the house. Jennifer attributed this meticulous collection to the fact that artifacts of his own childhood had been destroyed during the [[Bristol Blitz|Luftwaffe's bombing of Bristol]] in World War II (an event that also claimed the lives of his uncle, aunt, cousin, and his cousin's husband and grandson), and he may have wanted to prevent her from experiencing a similar loss.{{sfn|Grant|2011|pp=234, 263}} [[File:Randolph Scott and Cary Grant over a seafood lunch.jpg|thumb|right|upright|Randolph Scott ''(left)'' and Grant in 1933 (from ''[[Modern Screen]]'' promotional feature)]] Grant lived with costume designer [[Orry-Kelly]] from 1925 to 1931 in the West Village, New York, until both moved to Hollywood. They met when Grant was a struggling performer who had just been evicted from a boarding house for nonpayment; they had a volatile, on-and-off relationship over three decades until Orry-Kelly died in 1964, when Grant became one of his pallbearers.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Orry-Kelly. |title=Women I've Undressed. |publisher=Random House Australia |year=2015 |isbn=978-0-85798-563-7}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=STITCHES IN TIME |url=https://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2015/orry-kelly/ |access-date=February 2, 2024 |website=The Sydney Morning Herald}}&lt;/ref&gt; While Kelly stops short of claiming that Grant was his boyfriend in his memoir, director Gillian Armstrong's documentary on Kelly's memoir states so outright.{{citation needed|date=March 2024}} Grant lived with actor [[Randolph Scott]] off and on for 12 years.{{sfnm|1a1=Higham|1a2=Moseley|1y=1990|1p=57|2a1=Schickel|2y=1998|2p=44|3a1=Laurents|3y=2001|3p=131|4a1=Mann|4y=2001|4p=154|5a1=Prono|5y=2008|5p=126|6a1=Guilbert|6y=2009|6p=126}} The two met early in Grant's career, in 1932, at the Paramount studio when Scott was filming ''[[Sky Bride]]'' while Grant was shooting ''[[Sinners in the Sun]];'' they moved in together soon afterwards.{{sfn|Braun|2007|p=1920}} Whether the relationship was romantic is a matter of biographical dispute.{{sfn|Nott|2004|p=12}} Certainly, the association was critical to shaping Grant's star persona. Scott, who hailed from wealth, was polished and relaxed; Grant, who'd been gauche and unsophisticated, would adopt these traits and make them his trademark.{{Citation needed|date=August 2024}} [[Richard Blackwell]], then an actor at RKO, [[Jerome Zerbe]], a photographer who shot a series of publicity photographs of the couple in their home, and [[Scotty Bowers]], a Hollywood pimp, all claimed to have slept with the pair. Blackwell wrote in his autobiography that Grant and Scott &quot;were deeply, madly in love, their devotion was complete.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;Blackwell, Richard ''From Rags To Bitches'', General Pub Group 1994; {{ISBN|978-1881649571}}, p.54&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Mann, William J., ''Behind the screen : how gays and lesbians shaped Hollywood, 1910–1969'', Viking 2001, {{ISBN| 978-0142001141}} p.159.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title='Pimp to the Stars' Claims He Had a 'Three-Way' with Cary Grant and Randolph Scott |url=https://people.com/movies/pimp-to-the-stars-lovers-cary-grant-randolph-scott-threeway/ |access-date=December 25, 2023 |website=Peoplemag |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Biographer and friend of Grant's, Bill Royce, claimed that in old age Grant confessed to him that he and Scott had been bisexual, and that their relationship was the first time he'd ever been in love, characterising the memory as: &quot;Have you ever heard of gravity collapse?&quot; However, he allegedly also told Royce that while Scott had loved him &quot;on some profound level,&quot; Scott had not desired him physically to the same degree, but that they had explored the imbalance of their attraction. Since Grant's death, journalists such as David Canfield writing for ''[[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]]'' have revisited the rumours and speculation.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Canfield|first=David|title= Cary Grant and Randolph Scott's Hollywood Story: &quot;Our Souls Did Touch&quot;|website=[[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]]|date=January 18, 2024|url=https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/cary-grant-randolph-scott-hollywood-story}}&lt;/ref&gt; Grant's daughter, Jennifer, has denied her father was bisexual.{{sfn|Grant|2011|p=87}} When [[Chevy Chase]] joked on television in 1980 that Grant was a &quot;homo. What a gal!&quot;, Grant sued him for slander, and Chase was forced to retract his words.{{sfnm|1a1=McCann|1y=1997|1p=307|2a1=Seymour|2y=2009|2pp=114–115}} Grant became a fan of comedians [[Morecambe and Wise]] in the 1960s, and remained friends with [[Eric Morecambe]] until his death in 1984.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=260}} Grant began experimenting with [[LSD]] in the late 1950s,{{sfn|Schickel|1998|p=4}} before it became more widely popular. His wife at the time, Betsy Drake, displayed a keen interest in psychotherapy, and through her Grant developed a considerable knowledge of the field of [[psychoanalysis]]. Radiologist Mortimer Hartman began treating him with LSD in the late 1950s, with Grant optimistic that it could make him feel better about himself and rid him of the inner turmoil from his childhood and failed relationships. He had an estimated 100 sessions over several years.{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=205–206}} For a long time, Grant viewed the drug positively, saying that it was the solution after many years of &quot;searching for his peace of mind&quot;, and that for the first time in his life he was &quot;truly, deeply and honestly happy&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=205–206}} Dyan Cannon claimed during a court hearing that he was an &quot;apostle of LSD&quot;, and that he was still taking the drug in 1967 as part of a remedy to save their relationship.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=239}} Grant later remarked that &quot;taking LSD was an utterly foolish thing to do but I was a self-opinionated boor, hiding all kinds of layers and defences, hypocrisy and vanity. I had to get rid of them and wipe the slate clean.&quot;{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=215}} === Marriages === Grant was married five times.{{sfn|Drury|2008|p=51}} He wed [[Virginia Cherrill]] on February 9, 1934, at the [[Caxton Hall]] [[register office]] in London.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=35}} She divorced him on March 26, 1935,{{sfn|Houseman|1991|p=128}} following charges that he had hit her.{{sfn|Eliot|2004|p=249}} They were involved in a bitter divorce case which was widely reported in the press, with Cherrill demanding $1,000 a week from him in benefits from his Paramount earnings.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=38}} Grant then dated actress [[Phyllis Brooks]] from 1937. They considered marriage and vacationed together in Europe in mid-1939, visiting the Roman villa of Dorothy Taylor Dentice di Frasso in Italy, but the relationship ended later that year.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=57}} He married [[Barbara Hutton]] in 1942,{{sfn|Seymour|2009|p=260}} one of the wealthiest women in the world, following a $50&amp;nbsp;million inheritance from her grandfather [[Frank Winfield Woolworth]].{{sfn|Gressor|Cook|2005|p=259}} They were derisively nicknamed &quot;Cash and Cary&quot;,{{sfn|McIntosh|Weaver|1983|p=41}} although Grant refused any financial settlement in a prenuptial agreement{{sfn|Heymann|1987|p=294}} to avoid the accusation that he married for money.{{Efn|Grant was quoted as saying: &quot;I may not have married for very sound reasons, but money was never one of them.&quot;{{sfn|Hadleigh|2012|p=212}}}} Toward the end of their marriage they lived in a white mansion at 10615 Bellagio Road in Bel Air.{{sfnm|1a1=Higham|1a2=Moseley|1y=1990|1p=183|2a1=Chase|2y=2004|2p=97}} They divorced in 1945, although they remained the &quot;fondest of friends&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |title = Cary Grant in the spotlight |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=hKMcHcq3c8QC |year = 1980 |publisher = Galley Press |isbn = 978-0-8317-3957-7 |page = 69 }}&lt;/ref&gt; He dated Betty Hensel for a period,{{sfn|Wansell|1983|p=189}} then married [[Betsy Drake]], the co-star of two of his films, on December 25, 1949. In 1957 Grant had an affair with [[Sophia Loren]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Thorpe |first=Vanessa |date=October 18, 2014 |title=Sophia Loren: how Cary Grant begged me to become his lover |url=https://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/oct/19/sophia-loren-reveals-the-story-of-cary-grants-passion |accessdate=August 23, 2024 |work=[[The Guardian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Drake and Grant separated in 1958,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Roberts |first1=Sam |title=Betsy Drake, 92, Actress Who Starred With (and Wed) Cary Grant, Dies |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/movies/betsy-drake-movie-and-stage-actress-dies-at-92.html |access-date=23 August 2024 |work=[[The New York Times]] |date=November 12, 2015}} ISSN&amp;nbsp;0362-4331&lt;/ref&gt; divorcing on August 14,1962.{{sfn|Parish|2010|p=200}} It was his longest marriage.{{sfn|Schickel|2009|p=28}} [[File:Cary Grant Betsy Drake Dick Stabile 1955.jpg|thumb |right|upright|Grant with [[Betsy Drake]] and saxophonist [[Dick Stabile]] ''(right)'' in 1955]] Grant married [[Dyan Cannon]] on July 22, 1965, at the [[Desert Inn]] in Las Vegas,{{sfnm|1a1=Higham|1a2=Moseley|1y=1990|1p=312|2a1=Drury|2y=2008|2p=52}} and their daughter [[Jennifer Grant|Jennifer]], his only child, was born on February 26, 1966;&lt;ref name=ew&gt;{{cite magazine |first = Nancy |last = Sidewater |url = https://www.ew.com/article/2009/08/07/cary-grant-weds-dyan-cannon-1965l |title = Cary Grant Weds Dyan Cannon (1965) |magazine = Entertainment Weekly |date = August 7, 2009 |access-date = March 13, 2013 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615100046/http://www.ew.com/article/2009/08/07/cary-grant-weds-dyan-cannon-1965 |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; he frequently called her his &quot;best production&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url = https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yVkiAAAAIBAJ&amp;pg=1816,133428 |title = Hollywood loses a legend |work = Montreal Gazette |date = December 1, 1986 |page = 1 |access-date = March 13, 2013 |url-status=live |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20190402101845/https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yVkiAAAAIBAJ&amp;sjid=TagFAAAAIBAJ&amp;pg=1816,133428&amp;dq=cary+grant+best+production |archive-date = April 2, 2019 |df = mdy-all }}&lt;/ref&gt; He said of fatherhood: &lt;blockquote&gt;My life changed the day Jennifer was born. I've come to think that the reason we're put on this earth is to procreate. To leave something behind. Not films, because you know that I don't think my films will last very long once I'm gone. But another human being. That's what's important.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=237}}&lt;/blockquote&gt; Grant and Cannon separated in August 1967.&lt;ref&gt;''New York Daily News.'' March 21, 1968. p. 2.&lt;/ref&gt; On March 12, 1968, Grant was involved in a car accident in Queens, New York, en route to [[JFK Airport]], when a truck hit the side of his limousine. He was hospitalized for 17 days with three broken ribs and bruising. A female companion, Baroness Gratia von Furstenberg, was also injured in the accident.{{sfn|McIntosh|Weaver|1983|p=65}}&lt;ref&gt;''New York Daily News.'' March 13, 1968. p. 2.&lt;/ref&gt; Grant and Cannon divorced nine days later.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url = https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=AF5AAAAAIBAJ&amp;pg=2446,6230818 |title = Cary Grant's wife granted divorce |work = [[Windsor Star]] |date = March 22, 1968 |page = 48 |access-date = March 31, 2024 |url-status=live |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20150924215751/https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=AF5AAAAAIBAJ&amp;sjid=BVIMAAAAIBAJ&amp;pg=2446,6230818&amp;dq=cary+grant+dyan+cannon+divorce |archive-date = September 24, 2015 |df = mdy-all }}&lt;/ref&gt; Grant had a brief affair with actress [[Cynthia Bouron]] in the late 1960s.{{sfnm|1a1=McIntosh|1a2=Weaver|1y=1983|1p=15|2a1=Eliot|2y=2004|2pp=14–15}} He had been at odds with the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences since 1958, but received an Academy Honorary Award in 1970.{{sfn|Eliot|2004|pp=14–15}} He announced that he would attend the awards ceremony to accept it, ending his 12-year boycott of the ceremony. Two days after his announcement, Bouron filed a paternity suit against him and publicly stated that he was the father of her seven-week-old daughter,{{sfn|Eliot|2004|pp=14–15}}{{efn|Grant had a reputation for filing lawsuits against the film industry since the 1930s. The basis of these suits was that he had been cheated by the respective company. Most were described as frivolous and were settled out of court. A proposal was made to present him with an Academy Honorary Award in 1969; it was vetoed by angry Academy members. The proposal garnered enough votes to pass in 1970. It is believed{{by whom|date=March 2019}} that Bouron's accusations were part of a smear campaign organized by those in the film industry.{{sfn|Eliot|2004|pp=13–19}}}} and she named him as the father on the child's birth certificate.&lt;ref name=&quot;films&quot;&gt;{{cite book |title = Films in Review |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=KRELAQAAMAAJ |year = 1971 |publisher = Then and There Media, LCC. |page = 192 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Grant challenged her to a blood test and Bouron failed to provide one, and the court ordered her to remove his name from the certificate.&lt;ref name=&quot;films&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url = https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1946&amp;dat=19701020&amp;id=FJIuAAAAIBAJ&amp;pg=5361,5283628 |title = Court rejects suit against Grant |agency = Reuters |date = October 20, 1970 |work = Montreal Gazette |page = 23 |access-date = March 13, 2013 |url-status=live |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615100224/https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1946&amp;dat=19701020&amp;id=FJIuAAAAIBAJ&amp;sjid=OKEFAAAAIBAJ&amp;pg=5361,5283628 |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |df = mdy-all }}&lt;/ref&gt;{{efn|In 1973, Bouron was found murdered in a San Fernando parking lot.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url = https://www.newspapers.com/clip/5443251/the_san_bernardino_county_sun/ |title = Final chapter in lurid biography |first = Marilyn |last = Beck |author-link = Marilyn Beck |date = November 6, 1973 |newspaper = [[The San Bernardino Sun]] |page = 12 |via = [[Newspapers.com]] |access-date = June 15, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615100440/https://www.newspapers.com/clip/5443251/the_san_bernardino_county_sun/ |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |url-status=live }} {{Open access}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} Between 1973 and 1977, he dated British photojournalist Maureen Donaldson,{{sfn|Hofstede|1994|p=194}} followed by the much younger Victoria Morgan.{{sfn|Royce|Donaldson|1989|p=131}} On April 11, 1981, Grant married Barbara Harris, a British hotel public relations agent 46 years his junior.{{sfnm|1a1=Wansell|1y=1996|1p=281|2a1=Roberts|2y=2014|2p=106}} They met in 1976 at the Royal Lancaster Hotel in London, where Harris was working at the time and Grant was attending a Fabergé conference. They became friends, but it was not until 1979 that she moved to live with him in California. Grant's friends felt that she had a positive impact on him, and [[Prince Rainier of Monaco]] remarked that Grant had &quot;never been happier&quot; than he was in his last years with her.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|pp=312–314}} === Politics === Biographer Nancy Nelson noted that Grant did not openly align himself with political causes but occasionally commented on current events. Grant spoke out against the [[blacklisting]] of his friend [[Charlie Chaplin]] during the period of [[McCarthyism]], arguing that Chaplin was not a [[communist]] and that his status as an entertainer was more important than his political beliefs. In 1950, he told a reporter that he would like to see a female president of the United States but asserted a reluctance to comment on political affairs, believing it was not the place of actors to do so.&lt;ref&gt;{{Google books|id=oIksQz7tXUcC&amp;pg=PA180|title=Evenings With Cary Grant: Recollections in His Own Words and by Those Who Knew Him Best}}&lt;/ref&gt; Grant supported [[Thomas Dewey]] in the [[1944 United States presidential election]], appearing at a rally at the [[Los Angeles Coliseum]] after the New York governor won the Republican nomination.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=QfHXAAAAQBAJ&amp;q=June%20Allyson | title=When Hollywood Was Right: How Movie Stars, Studio Moguls, and Big Business Remade American Politics| isbn=978-1107650282| last1=Critchlow| first1=Donald T.| date=2013| publisher=Cambridge University Press}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1963 Grant visited Washington and with Attorney General [[Robert Kennedy]] went to a schoolyard, then a nearby junkyard as the two men considered what turning it into a playground might do for the children of Washington, DC,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Kaufman |first=Sarah |date=February 20, 2016 |title=Cary Grant &amp; Bobby Kennedy: Two Gentlemen of the Junkyard |url=https://sarahlkaufman.com/2016/02/what-were-cary-grant-bobby-kennedy-doing-in-that-junkyard/ |access-date=December 6, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; On December 10, 1967, Grant attended the Democratic National Committee Fundraising Dinner at the Plaza Hotel in New York City. In 1976, Grant made a public appearance at the [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican Party]] National Convention in [[Kansas City, Missouri|Kansas City]] during which he gave a speech in support of [[Gerald Ford]]'s reelection and for female equality before introducing [[Betty Ford]] onto the stage.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-star-studded-gop-convention-in-1976/ |title=A star-studded GOP convention...in 1976 |publisher=[[CBS News]] |date=July 14, 2016 |access-date=March 5, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/document/0003/1069133.pdf |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20221009/https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/document/0003/1069133.pdf |archive-date=October 9, 2022 |url-status=live|title=1976/08/19 – Cary Grant Introduction of Betty Ford, Kansas City, Missouri |publisher=fordlibrarymuseum.gov |access-date=March 4, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; A 1977 interview with Grant in ''[[The New York Times]]'' noted his political beliefs to be conservative but observed that Grant did not actively campaign for candidates.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1977/07/03/archives/the-other-cary-grant-being-handsome-elegant-and-everybodys-favorite.html |title=The Other Cary Grant |newspaper=The New York Times |date=July 3, 1977 |access-date=March 4, 2022|last1=Hoge |first1=Warren }}&lt;/ref&gt; === Death === [[File:Cary Grant North by Northwest Original Still.jpg|thumb|left|upright|Still for ''North by Northwest'']] Grant was at the [[Adler Theater]] in [[Davenport, Iowa]], on the afternoon of Saturday, November 29, 1986, preparing for his performance in ''A Conversation with Cary Grant'' when he was taken ill; he had been feeling unwell as he arrived at the theater. Basil Williams photographed him there and thought that he still looked his usual suave self, but he noticed that he seemed very tired and that he stumbled once in the auditorium. Williams recalls that Grant rehearsed for half an hour before &quot;something seemed wrong&quot; all of a sudden, and he disappeared backstage. Grant was taken back to the Blackhawk Hotel where he and his wife had checked in, and a doctor was called and discovered that Grant was having a massive stroke, with a blood pressure reading of 210 over 130. Grant refused to be taken to the hospital. The doctor recalled: &quot;The stroke was getting worse. In only fifteen minutes he deteriorated rapidly. It was terrible watching him die and not being able to help. But he wouldn't let us.&quot; By 8:45&amp;nbsp;p.m., Grant had slipped into a coma and was taken to [[St. Luke's Hospital (Davenport, Iowa)|St. Luke's Hospital]] in Davenport, Iowa.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|pp=323–324}} He spent 45 minutes in the emergency room before being transferred to intensive care. He died at 11:22&amp;nbsp;pm, aged 82.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=324}} {{quote box | width = 30em | bgcolor = #c6dbf7 | align = right | quote = Death? Of course I think of it. But I don't want to dwell on it&amp;nbsp;... I think the thing you think about when you're my age is how you're going to do it and whether you'll behave well. | source = —Grant at age 73{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=274}} }} An editorial in ''The New York Times'' stated: &quot;Cary Grant was not supposed to die. ... Cary Grant was supposed to stick around, our perpetual touchstone of charm and elegance and romance and youth.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;nyt-editorial&quot;&gt;{{cite news |author=&lt;!--Editorial; no by-line.--&gt; |title=Cary Grant's Promise |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1986/12/02/opinion/cary-grant-s-promise.html |work=The New York Times |date=December 2, 1986 |page=A34 |access-date=August 22, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; His body was taken back to California, where it was cremated and his ashes scattered in the Pacific Ocean.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=325}} No funeral was conducted for him following his request, which Roderick Mann remarked was appropriate for &quot;the private man who didn't want the nonsense of a funeral&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=276}} His estate was worth in the region of 60 to 80&amp;nbsp;million dollars;{{sfnm|1a1=Wansell|1y=1996|1p=188|2a1=McCann|2y=1997|2p=277}} the bulk of it went to Barbara Harris and Jennifer.&lt;ref name=&quot;Decker, Cathleen&quot; /&gt; == Screen persona == [[File:Cary Grant Indiscreet 1958.jpg|thumb|left|upright|Grant in 1958]] McCann wrote that one of the reasons why Grant's film career was so successful is that he was not conscious of how handsome he was on screen, acting in a fashion that was most unexpected and unusual from a Hollywood star of that period.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=104}} George Cukor once stated: &quot;You see, he didn't depend on his looks. He wasn't a narcissist, he acted as though he were just an ordinary young man. And that made it all the more appealing, that a handsome young man was funny; that was especially unexpected and good because we think, 'Well, if he's a Beau Brummel, he can't be either funny or intelligent', but he proved otherwise&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=104}} Jennifer Grant acknowledged that her father neither relied on his looks nor was a character actor, and said that he was just the opposite of that, playing the &quot;basic man&quot;.{{sfn|Grant|2011|p=67}} Grant's appeal was unusually broad among both men and women. [[Pauline Kael]] remarked that men wanted to be him and women dreamed of dating him. She noticed that Grant treated his female co-stars differently than many of the leading men at the time, regarding them as subjects with multiple qualities rather than &quot;treating them as sex objects&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Kael&quot; /&gt; [[Leslie Caron]] said that he was the most talented leading man she worked with.&lt;ref name=&quot;hattenstone20210621&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Hattenstone |first=Simon |date=June 21, 2021 |title='I am very shy. It's amazing I became a movie star': Leslie Caron at 90 on love, art and addiction |language=en |work=The Guardian |url=http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jun/21/i-am-very-shy-its-amazing-i-became-a-movie-star-leslie-caron-at-90-on-love-art-and-addiction |access-date=June 22, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[David Shipman (writer)|David Shipman]] writes that &quot;more than most stars, he belonged to the public&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=284}} A number of critics have argued that Grant had the rare star ability to turn a mediocre picture into a good one. Philip T. Hartung of ''The Commonweal'' stated in his review for ''Mr. Lucky'' (1943) that, if it &quot;weren't for Cary Grant's persuasive personality, the whole thing would melt away to nothing at all&quot;.{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=166}} Political theorist [[C. L. R. James]] saw Grant as a &quot;new and very important symbol&quot;, a new type of Englishman who differed from [[Leslie Howard]] and Ronald Colman, who represented the &quot;freedom, natural grace, simplicity, and directness which characterise such different American types as Jimmy Stewart and Ronald Reagan&quot;, which ultimately symbolized the growing relationship between Britain and America.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=109}} {{quote box|width=20em|bgcolor=#c6dbf7|align=left|quote=Once he realized that each movement could be stylized for humor, the eyepopping, the cocked head, the forward lunge, and the slightly ungainly stride became as certain as the pen strokes of a master cartoonist.|source=—Film critic [[Pauline Kael]] on the development of Grant's comic acting in the late 1930s&lt;ref name=&quot;Kael&quot; /&gt;}} McCann notes that Grant typically played &quot;wealthy privileged characters who never seemed to have any need to work in order to maintain their glamorous and hedonistic lifestyle&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=104}} [[Martin Stirling]] thought that Grant had an acting range that was &quot;greater than any of his contemporaries&quot;, but felt that a number of critics underrated him as an actor. He believes that Grant was always at his &quot;physical and verbal best in situations that bordered on farce&quot;.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|pp=xvii, 174}} Charles Champlin identifies a paradox in Grant's screen persona, in his unusual ability to &quot;mix polish and pratfalls in successive scenes&quot;. He remarks that Grant was &quot;refreshingly able to play the near-fool, the fey idiot, without compromising his masculinity or surrendering to camp for its own sake&quot;.{{sfn|Deschner|1973|p=3}} Wansell further notes that Grant could, &quot;with the arch of an eyebrow or the merest hint of a smile, question his own image&quot;.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=7}} Stanley Donen stated that his real &quot;magic&quot; came from his attention to minute details and always seeming real, which came from &quot;enormous amounts of work&quot; rather than being God-given.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=128}} Grant remarked of his career: &quot;I guess to a certain extent I did eventually become the characters I was playing. I played at being someone I wanted to be until I became that person, or he became me&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=59}} He professed that the real Cary Grant was more like his scruffy, unshaven fisherman in ''Father Goose'' than the &quot;well-tailored charmer&quot; of ''Charade''.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=250}} Grant often poked fun at himself with statements such as, &quot;Everyone wants to be Cary Grant—even I want to be Cary Grant&quot;,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine |title = Cary in the Sky with Diamonds |magazine = Vanity Fair |number = 600 |date = August 2010 |page = 174 }}&lt;/ref&gt; and in ad-lib lines such as in ''His Girl Friday'' (1940): &quot;Listen, the last man who said that to me was Archie Leach, just a week before he cut his throat.&quot;{{sfn|Kaklamanidou|Tally|2014|p=167}} In ''Arsenic and Old Lace'' (1944), a gravestone is seen bearing the name Archie Leach.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine |url = http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,827480-3,00.html |title = Old Cary Grant Fine |magazine = Time |date = July 27, 1962 |access-date = April 12, 2016 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160404175039/http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0%2C9171%2C827480-3%2C00.html |archive-date = April 4, 2016 |url-status=live}} {{subscription required}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{sfn|Halliwell|Walker|2001|p=184}} Alfred Hitchcock thought that Grant was very effective in darker roles, with a mysterious, dangerous quality, remarking that &quot;there is a frightening side to Cary that no one can quite put their finger on&quot;.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=10}} Wansell notes that this darker, mysterious side extended to his personal life, which he took great lengths to cover up to retain his debonair image.{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=10}} In a profile, [[Tom Wolfe]] wrote that &quot;Cary Grant plays a wonderful Cary Grant.&quot; Upon being recognized by a fan, Wolfe writes that Grant &quot;cocks his head and gives her the Cary Grant mock-quizzical look—just like he does in the movies—the look that says, 'I don't know what's happening, but we're not going to take it very seriously, are we? Or are we?'&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Wolfe |first=Tom |title=[[The Kandy-Kolored Tangerine-Flake Streamline Baby]] |year=1964 |pages=168}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Legacy == {{quote box|width=30em|bgcolor=#c6dbf7|align=right|quote=No other man seemed so classless and self-assured&amp;nbsp;... at ease with the romantic as the comic&amp;nbsp;... aged so well and with such fine style&amp;nbsp;... in short, played the part so well: Cary Grant made men seem like a good idea.|source=—Biographer Graham McCann on Cary Grant.{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=3–4}}}} Biographers Morecambe and Stirling believe that Cary Grant was the &quot;greatest leading man Hollywood had ever known&quot;.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=287}} Schickel stated that there are &quot;very few stars who achieve the magnitude of Cary Grant, art of a very high and subtle order&quot; and thought that he was the &quot;best star actor there ever was in the movies&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url = https://www.cbsnews.com/news/remembering-cary-grant-at-100/ |title = Remembering Cary Grant at 100 |publisher = [[CBS News]] |date = May 21, 2004 |access-date = June 14, 2016 |first1 = Pete |last1 = Hammond |first2 = Mary-Jayne |last2 = McKay |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160614133211/http://www.cbsnews.com/news/remembering-cary-grant-at-100/ |archive-date = June 14, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;{{sfn|Schickel|1998|p=vi}} [[David Thomson (film critic)|David Thomson]] and directors [[Stanley Donen]] and [[Howard Hawks]] concurred that Grant was the greatest and most important actor in the history of the cinema.&lt;ref name=&quot;schwarz20070102&quot; /&gt;{{sfnm|1a1=McCann|1y=1997|1p=4|2a1=McBride|2y=2013|2p=85}} He was a favorite of Hitchcock's, who admired him and called him &quot;the only actor I ever loved in my whole life&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=3}} He remained one of Hollywood's top box-office attractions for almost 30 years.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title =About: Cary Grant |url = http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/person/75180%7C28068/Cary-Grant/ |publisher = Turner Classic Movies |access-date = December 15, 2015 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160614005221/http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/person/75180%7C28068/Cary-Grant/ |archive-date = June 14, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Pauline Kael]] stated that the world still thinks of him affectionately because he &quot;embodies what seems a happier time−a time when we had a simpler relationship to a performer&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Kael&quot; /&gt; [[File:Cary Grant Statue.jpg|upright|thumb|left|''Cary Grant'' statue by [[Graham Ibbeson]] (2001) in [[Millennium Square (Bristol)|Millennium Square]], Bristol]] Grant was nominated for Academy Awards for ''[[Penny Serenade]]'' (1941) and ''[[None But the Lonely Heart (film)|None But the Lonely Heart]]'' (1944),{{sfn|Crouse|2005|p=99}} but he never won a competitive Oscar.{{efn|Jennifer Grant states that her father was quite outspoken on the discrimination that he felt against handsome men and comedians in Hollywood. He questioned &quot;are good looks their own reward, canceling out the right to more&quot;? She recalls that he once said of [[Robert Redford]]: &quot;It'll be tough for him to be awarded anything, he's just too good looking&quot;.{{sfn|Grant|2011|p=68}}}}{{sfn|Ringler|2000|p=182}} He did, however, receive a special [[Academy Honorary Award|Academy Award for Lifetime Achievement]] in 1970.{{sfn|Prono|2008|p=127}} The inscription on his statuette read &quot;To Cary Grant, for his unique mastery of the art of screen acting with respect and affection of his colleagues&quot;. Presenting the award to Grant, [[Frank Sinatra]] announced: &quot;No one has brought more pleasure to more people for so many years than Cary has, and nobody has done so many things so well&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|pp=246–247}} Grant was awarded a special plaque at the Straw Hat Awards in New York in May 1975, which recognized him as a &quot;star and superstar in entertainment&quot;. In July 1976, [[Betty Ford]] invited him to attend the Bicentennial dinner for Queen [[Elizabeth II]] at the [[White House]] and to give a speech introducing her at the [[Republican National Convention]] in [[Kansas City, Missouri|Kansas City]] the following month. He was invited to a royal charity gala in 1978 at the [[London Palladium]]. In 1979, he hosted the American Film Institute's tribute to Alfred Hitchcock, and presented [[Laurence Olivier]] with his honorary Oscar.{{sfn|Morecambe|Sterling|2001|p=300}} In 1981, Grant was accorded the [[Kennedy Center Honors]].{{sfn|Clear|1993|p=80}} Three years later, a theater on the MGM lot was renamed the &quot;Cary Grant Theatre&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=265}} In 1995, more than 100 leading film directors were asked to reveal their favorite actor of all time in a ''Time Out'' poll, and Grant came second only to [[Marlon Brando]].{{sfn|Wansell|2011|p=8}} On December 7, 2001, a statue of Grant by [[Graham Ibbeson]] was unveiled in [[Millennium Square (Bristol)|Millennium Square]], a regenerated area next to [[Bristol Harbour]], Bristol, the city where he was born.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = http://aprb.co.uk/projects/all-projects/1999/cary-grant-by-graham-ibbeson |title = Cary Grant |publisher = Art and the Public Realm Bristol |access-date = December 8, 2015 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160615014416/http://aprb.co.uk/projects/all-projects/1999/cary-grant-by-graham-ibbeson |archive-date = June 15, 2016 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In November 2005, Grant again came first in ''Premiere'' magazine's list of &quot;The 50 Greatest Movie Stars of All Time&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url = http://designarchives.aiga.org/#/entries/%2Bid%3A2695/_/detail/relevance/asc/0/7/2695/the-50-greatest-movie-stars-of-all-time/1 |title = The 50 Greatest Movie Stars of All Time |work = [[Premiere (magazine)|Premiere]] |access-date = December 8, 2015 |archive-url = https://archive.today/20161213104606/http://designarchives.aiga.org/%23/entries/%2Bid:2695/_/detail/relevance/asc/0/7/2695/the-50-greatest-movie-stars-of-all-time/1 |archive-date = December 13, 2016 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; The biennial Cary Comes Home Festival was established in 2014 in his hometown [[Bristol]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|date=November 23, 2018|title=Cary Grant festival celebrates third year|work=BBC News|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-46178044|access-date=August 9, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; McCann declared that Grant was &quot;quite simply, the funniest actor cinema has ever produced&quot;.{{sfn|McCann|1997|p=35}} There is a street named after Grant in [[San Antonio|San Antonio, Texas]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Brown |first=Merrisa |date=September 30, 2014 |title=San Antonio street names and groupings |url=https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/slideshow/San-Antonio-street-names-and-groupings-94695.php |website=mysanantonio.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; In November 2024, a [[blue plaque]] was unveiled on his childhood home at 50 Berkeley Road, [[Bishopston, Bristol]], where he lived from about age four to six, by Heritage Minister [[Sir Chris Bryant]].&lt;ref name=bp-20241122&gt;{{cite news |url=https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/blue-plaque-honouring-cary-grant-9731844 |title=Blue plaque honouring Cary Grant unveiled at his childhood home in Bristol |last=Minchin |first=Rod |newspaper=Bristol Post |agency=PA |date=22 November 2024 |access-date=23 November 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Portrayals=== Grant was portrayed by [[John Gavin]] in the 1980 made-for-television biographical film ''[[Sophia Loren: Her Own Story]]'',&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|title=GAVIN AS GRANT: A TEST OF TASTE|author=Mann, Roderick.|date=July 1, 1980|work=Los Angeles Times|page=g1}}&lt;/ref&gt; and in the similar 1987 TV serialisation ''[[Poor Little Rich Girl: The Barbara Hutton Story]]'', [[James Read]] played Grant as Barbara Hutton's third husband. The British miniseries ''[[Archie (TV series)|Archie]]'', covering Grant's life, was broadcast from November 2023 on [[ITV (TV network)|ITV]]. Grant is portrayed by Dainton Anderson, [[Oaklee Pendergast]], [[Calam Lynch]] and [[Jason Isaacs]] at successive stages of his life.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Singh |first1=Anita |title=Cary Grant's British accent to be heard for first time in new ITV drama |url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/07/cary-grant-itv-drama-archie-british-accent-secret-recording/ |access-date=November 13, 2023 |work=The Daily Telegraph |date=November 7, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Filmography and stage work == {{Main|List of Cary Grant performances}} From 1932 to 1966, Grant starred in over seventy films. In 1999, the [[American Film Institute]] named him the second-greatest male star of [[Classical Hollywood cinema|Golden Age Hollywood]] cinema (after [[Humphrey Bogart]]).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web | url=https://www.afi.com/100Years/stars.aspx | title=AFI's 100 Years .... 100 Stars | publisher=American Film Institute | access-date=October 10, 2018 | archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181010155029/https://www.afi.com/100Years/stars.aspx | archive-date=October 10, 2018 | url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt; He was nominated for the [[Academy Award for Best Actor]] for ''[[Penny Serenade]]'' (1941) and ''[[None but the Lonely Heart (film)|None but the Lonely Heart]]'' (1944).&lt;ref name=&quot;CG44&quot;/&gt;{{sfnm|1a1=Crouse|1y=2005|1p=99|2a1=Wansell|2y=2011|2p=120}} Widely recognized for comedic and dramatic roles, among his best-known films are:&lt;ref name=&quot;ATCF&quot; /&gt; * ''[[Blonde Venus]]'' (1932) with [[Marlene Dietrich]] * ''[[She Done Him Wrong]]'' (1933) with [[Mae West]] * ''[[Sylvia Scarlett]]'' (1935) with [[Katharine Hepburn]] * ''[[The Awful Truth]]'' (1937) with [[Irene Dunne]] * ''[[Bringing Up Baby]]'' (1938) with Katharine Hepburn * ''[[Gunga Din (film)|Gunga Din]]'' (1939) with [[Victor McLaglen]] and [[Douglas Fairbanks Jr.]] * ''[[Only Angels Have Wings]]'' (1939) with [[Jean Arthur]] and [[Rita Hayworth]] * ''[[My Favorite Wife]]'' (1940) with Irene Dunne * ''[[His Girl Friday]]'' (1940) with [[Rosalind Russell]] * ''[[The Philadelphia Story (film)|The Philadelphia Story]]'' (1940) with Katharine Hepburn and [[James Stewart]] * ''[[Suspicion (1941 film)|Suspicion]]'' (1941) with [[Joan Fontaine]] * ''[[Arsenic and Old Lace (film)|Arsenic and Old Lace]]'' (1944) with [[Peter Lorre]] * ''[[Notorious (1946 film)|Notorious]]'' (1946) with [[Ingrid Bergman]] * ''[[Monkey Business (1952 film)|Monkey Business]]'' with [[Ginger Rogers]] and [[Marilyn Monroe]] * ''[[An Affair to Remember]]'' (1957) with [[Deborah Kerr]] * ''[[North by Northwest]]'' (1959) with [[Eva Marie Saint]] and [[James Mason]] * ''[[Charade (1963 film)|Charade]]'' (1963) with [[Audrey Hepburn]] == Notes == {{Notelist}} == References == {{Reflist|22em}} == Sources == {{div col|colwidth=45em}} * {{cite book |last = Barsanti |first = Chris |title = Filmology: A Movie-a-Day Guide to the Movies You Need to Know |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=ZPW4VhjQ0iIC&amp;pg=PA124 |year=2010 |publisher = Adams Media |isbn = 978-1-4405-1036-6 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Benshoff |first1 = Harry M. |last2 = Griffin |first2 = Sean |title = America on Film: Representing Race, Class, Gender, and Sexuality at the Movies |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=8PwiBBLhwGEC&amp;pg=PT348 |date = 2011 |publisher = John Wiley &amp; Sons |isbn = 978-1-4443-5759-2 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Bernstein |first1 = Jay |last2 = Hamm |first2 = Larry Cortez |last3 = Rubini |first3 = David |title = Starmaker: Life as A Hollywood Publicist With Farrah, The Rat Pack and 600 More Stars Who Fired Me |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=U2uQOrIdyssC&amp;pg=PA211 |date = 2011 |publisher = ECW Press |isbn = 978-1-77090-043-1 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Botto |first1 = Louis |last2 = Viagas |first2 = Robert |title = At This Theatre |date = 2010 |publisher = Hal Leonard Corporation |isbn = 978-1-4768-5027-6 |url = https://archive.org/details/atthistheatre10000bott |url-access=limited}} * {{cite book |last = Braun |first = Eric |title = Frightening the Horses: Gay Icons of the Cinema |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=RKMqAQAAIAAJ |year= 2007 |publisher = Reynolds &amp; Hearn |isbn = 978-1-905287-37-6 }} * {{cite book |last = Bubbeo |first = Daniel |title = The Women of Warner Brothers: The Lives and Careers of 15 Leading Ladies, with Filmographies for Each |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=OfwMkz8vpIgC&amp;pg=PA140 |date = 2001 |publisher = McFarland |isbn = 978-0-7864-6236-0 }} * {{cite book |last = Chandler |first = Charlotte |title = Ingrid: Ingrid Bergman, A Personal Biography |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=PyDOIThaF0EC&amp;pg=PA214 |date = 2007 |publisher = Simon and Schuster |isbn = 978-1-4165-3914-8 }} * {{cite book |last = Chandler |first = Charlotte |title = It's Only a Movie: Alfred Hitchcock A Personal Biography |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=oKRhkdxsFs8C&amp;pg=PT124 |date = 2008 |publisher = Simon and Schuster |isbn = 978-1-84739-709-6 }} * {{cite book |last = Chase |first = John |title = Glitter Stucco &amp; 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Screwball Comedy: Charting the Difference |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=cXIeDiB7WJEC&amp;pg=PA115 |year = 2002 |publisher = Rowman &amp; Littlefield |isbn = 978-0-8108-4424-7 }} * {{cite book |last = Gehring |first = Wes D. |title = Carole Lombard, the Hoosier Tornado |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=4owdAQAAIAAJ |year = 2003 |publisher = Indiana Historical Society Press |isbn = 978-0-87195-167-0 }} * {{cite book |last = Gehring |first = Wes D. |title = Leo McCarey: From Marx to McCarthy |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=U9WTUIpR0dIC&amp;pg=PA152 |year = 2005 |publisher = Scarecrow Press |isbn = 978-0-8108-5263-1 }} * {{cite book |last = Govoni |first = Albert |title = Cary Grant: An Unauthorized Biography |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=U3RZAAAAMAAJ |year = 1973 |publisher = Hale |isbn = 978-0-7091-4186-0 }} * {{cite book |last = Grant |first = Jennifer |title = Good Stuff: A Reminiscence of My Father, Cary Grant |url = https://archive.org/details/goodstuffreminis00gran |url-access = registration |date = 2011 |publisher = Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group |isbn = 978-0-307-59667-3 }} * {{cite book |last = Grindon |first = Leger |title = The Hollywood Romantic Comedy: Conventions, History and Controversies |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=okkZPTEnYqMC&amp;pg=PT35 |date = 2011 |publisher = John Wiley &amp; Sons |isbn = 978-1-4443-9595-2 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Gressor |first1 = Megan |last2 = Cook |first2 = Kerry |title = Affair to Remember |url = https://archive.org/details/isbn_9781592331284 |url-access = registration |page = [https://archive.org/details/isbn_9781592331284/page/259 259] |publisher = Fair Winds |isbn = 978-1-61059-557-5 |year = 2005 }} * {{cite book |last = Guilbert |first = Georges-Claude |title = Literary Readings of Billy Wilder |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=BPQYBwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA126 |date = 2009 |publisher = Cambridge Scholars Publishing |isbn = 978-1-4438-0847-7 }} * {{cite book |last = Guttman |first = Dick |title = Starflacker: Inside the Golden Age of Hollywood |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=f1zGBwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT13 |date = 2015 |publisher = Guttman Associates, Inc. |isbn = 978-0-9864071-1-6 }} * {{cite book |last = Hadleigh |first = Boze |title = Holy Matrimony!: Better Halves and Bitter Halves: Actors, Athletes, Comedians, Directors, Divas, Philosophers, Poets |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=E4RMkVqRposC&amp;pg=PT212 |date = 2012 |publisher = Andrews McMeel Publishing |isbn = 978-1-4494-4098-5 }} * {{cite book |last = Halliwell |first = Leslie |title = Mountain of dreams: the golden years of Paramount Pictures |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=PGxZAAAAMAAJ |date = 1976 |publisher = Hart-Davis, MacGibbon |isbn = 978-0-246-10825-8 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Halliwell |first1 = Leslie |last2 = Walker |first2 = John |title = Halliwell's Who's who in the Movies |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=ZZgrAQAAMAAJ |year = 2001 |publisher = Harper Collins Entertainment |isbn = 978-0-00-257214-9 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Hanson |first1 = Patricia King |last2 = Dunkleberger |first2 = Amy |title = AFI; American Film Institute Catalog of Motion Pictures Produced in the United States : Feature Films 1941–1950 Indexes |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=fRY0QiacQccC&amp;pg=PA509 |year = 1999 |publisher = University of California Press |isbn = 978-0-520-21521-4 }} * {{cite book |last = Heymann |first = C. David |title = Poor Ltl Rch Grl M |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=TVrji99v1XIC |date = 1987 |publisher = Pocket Books |isbn = 978-0-671-64069-9 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Higham |first1 = Charles |last2 = Moseley |first2 = Roy |title = Cary Grant: The Lonely Heart |url = https://archive.org/details/carygrantlonelyh00high |url-access = registration |year = 1990 |publisher = Avon Books |isbn = 978-0-380-71009-6 }} * {{cite magazine |last = Hodgins |first = Eric |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=Nz8EAAAAMBAJ&amp;pg=PA146 |title = Amid Ruins of an Empire a New Hollywood Arises |magazine = [[Life (magazine)|Life]] |date = May 10, 1957 }} * {{cite book |last = Hofstede |first = David |title = Audrey Hepburn: a bio-bibliography |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=8aJZAAAAMAAJ |date = 1994 |publisher = Greenwood Press |isbn = 978-0-313-28909-5 }} * {{cite book |last = Hollinger |first = Karen |title = The Actress: Hollywood Acting and the Female Star |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=hVtHAQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA42 |date = 2013 |publisher = Routledge |isbn = 978-1-135-20589-8 }} * {{cite book |last = Houseman |first = Victoria |title = Made in Heaven: The Marriages and Children of Hollywood Stars |url = https://archive.org/details/unset0000unse_s6q7 |url-access = registration |year = 1991 |publisher = Bonus Books |isbn = 978-0-929387-24-6 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Jewell |first1 = Richard B. |last2 = Harbin |first2 = Vernon |title = The RKO story |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=o_wuAAAAMAAJ |year = 1982 |publisher = Arlington House |isbn = 978-0-517-54656-7 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Kaklamanidou |first1 = Betty |last2 = Tally |first2 = Margaret |title = The Millennials on Film and Television: Essays on the Politics of Popular Culture |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=doAOAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA167 |date = 2014 |publisher = McFarland |isbn = 978-1-4766-1514-1 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Karnick |first1 = Kristine Brunovska |last2 = Jenkins |first2 = Henry |title = Classical Hollywood Comedy |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=pBNeHkGkhrEC&amp;pg=PA330 |date = 2013 |publisher = Routledge |isbn = 978-1-135-21323-7 }} * {{cite book |last = Klein |first = Terrance W. |title = Vanity Faith: Searching for Spirituality Among the Stars |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=4Jb5Bgq3TsIC&amp;pg=PA32 |year = 2009 |publisher = Liturgical Press |isbn = 978-0-8146-3220-8 }} * {{cite book |last = Laurents |first = Arthur |author-link = Arthur Laurents |title = Original Story by: A Memoir of Broadway and Hollywood |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=0XbXeMf8LOsC |year = 2001 |publisher = Applause |isbn = 978-1-55783-467-6 }} * {{cite book |last = Leider |first = Emily W. |title = Myrna Loy: The Only Good Girl in Hollywood |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=k3lp2ftWpgwC&amp;pg=PA265 |date = 2011 |publisher = University of California Press |isbn = 978-0-520-25320-9 }} * {{cite book |last = Leigh |first = Spencer |title = Frank Sinatra: An Extraordinary Life |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=BBm6CgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT236 |date = 2015 |publisher = McNidder and Grace Limited |isbn = 978-0-85716-088-1 }} * {{cite book |last = Louvish |first = Simon |title = Mae West: It Ain't No Sin |year = 2007 |publisher = Macmillan |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=wbsd31esW5kC&amp;q=cary+grant+wintergarten&amp;pg=PA40 |isbn = 978-0-312-37562-1 }} * {{cite book |last = Mann |first = William J. |author-link = William J. Mann |title = Behind the Screen: How Gays and Lesbians Shaped Hollywood, 1910–1969 |url = https://archive.org/details/behindscreenhowg00mann |url-access = registration |year = 2001 |publisher = Viking |isbn = 978-0-670-03017-0 }} * {{cite book |last = Mast |first = Gerald |title = Bringing Up Baby |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=fhjQPHtlaBMC&amp;pg=PA294 |year = 1988 |publisher = Rutgers University Press |isbn = 978-0-8135-1341-6 }} * {{cite book |last = McBride |first = Joseph | author-link=Joseph McBride (writer) |title = Hawks on Hawks |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=ccDDAQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA85 |date = 2013 |publisher = University Press of Kentucky |isbn = 978-0-8131-4431-3 }} * {{cite book |last = McCann |first = Graham |title = Cary Grant: A Class Apart |publisher = Fourth Estate |location = London |year = 1997 |isbn = 978-1-85702-574-3 }} Also published by Columbia University Press, 1998; [https://books.google.com/books?id=RK_91TR_YE0C preview available online]. * {{cite book |last1 = McIntosh |first1 = William Currie |last2 = Weaver |first2 = William |title = The private Cary Grant |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=0UQ3AAAAIAAJ |year = 1983 |publisher = Sidgwick &amp; Jackson |isbn = 978-0-283-98989-6 }} * {{cite book |last = Miniter |first = Frank |title = The Ultimate Man's Survival Guide |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=vo_mAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA194 |date = 2013 |publisher = Regnery Publishing |isbn = 978-1-59698-804-0 }} * {{cite book |last = Monaco |first = James |title = The Movie Guide |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=s7MUAQAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA121 |year = 1992 |publisher = Perigee Books |isbn = 978-0-399-51780-8 }} * {{cite book |last = Moore |first = Roger |title = My Word is My Bond: The Autobiography |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=5B7dAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT148 |date = 2009 |publisher = Michael OMara |isbn = 978-1-84317-419-6 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Morecambe |first1 = Gary |last2 = Sterling |first2 = Martin |title = Cary Grant: In Name Only |url = https://archive.org/details/carygrantinnameo0000more |url-access = registration |year = 2001 |publisher = Robson |isbn = 978-1-86105-466-1 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Morecambe |first1 = Gary |last2 = Sterling |first2 = Martin |title = Cary Grant: In Name Only |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=Y8mrk5V_z9gC |date = 2004 |publisher = Robson Books |isbn = 978-1-86105-639-9 }} * {{cite book |last = McGee |first = Garry |title = Doris Day: Sentimental Journey |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=fYXeCQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA155 |date = 2005 |publisher = McFarland |isbn = 978-0-7864-6107-3 }} * {{cite book |last = Mell |first = Eila |title = Casting Might-Have-Beens: A Film by Film Directory of Actors Considered for Roles Given to Others |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=8AMyBgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA21 |date = 2005 |publisher = McFarland |isbn = 978-0-7864-2017-9 }} * {{cite book |last = Messina |first = Elizabeth |title = What's His Name? John Fiedler: The Man the Face the Voice |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=XqaWtV6Om1sC&amp;pg=PA62 |date = 2012 |publisher = AuthorHouse |isbn = 978-1-4685-5857-9 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Mintz |first1 = Steven |last2 = Roberts |first2 = Randy W. |last3 = Welky |first3 = David |title = Hollywood's America: Understanding History Through Film |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=mindCQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA144 |date =2016 |publisher = John Wiley &amp; Sons |isbn = 978-1-118-97649-4 }} * {{cite book |last = Nelson |first = Nancy |year = 2002 |orig-year = 1991 |publisher = Citadel Press |isbn = 978-0-8065-2412-2 |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=oIksQz7tXUcC |title = Evenings With Cary Grant: Recollections in His Own Words and by Those Who Knew Him Best }} * {{cite book |last = Nott |first = Robert |title = The Films of Randolph Scott |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=LnONAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA12 |date = 2004 |publisher = McFarland |isbn = 978-1-4766-1006-1 }} * {{cite book |last = Parish |first = James Robert |title = The Hollywood Book of Breakups |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=gSh2HyQ8OsQC&amp;pg=PT200 |date = 2010 |publisher = John Wiley &amp; Sons |isbn = 978-1-118-04067-6 }} * {{cite book |last = Prono |first = Luca |title = Encyclopedia of Gay and Lesbian Popular Culture |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=Y3FYzMPH2OwC&amp;pg=PT127 |year = 2008 |publisher = ABC-CLIO |isbn = 978-0-313-33599-0 }} * {{cite book |last = Richards |first = Jeffrey |title = Visions of Yesterday |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=MA6uAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA242 |date = 2014 |publisher = Routledge |isbn = 978-1-317-92861-4 }} * {{cite book |last = Ringler |first = Stephen M. |title = A Dictionary of Cinema Quotations from Filmmakers and Critics: Over 3400 Axioms, Criticisms, Opinions and Witticisms from 100 Years of the Cinema |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=mYeACgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA182 |date = 2000 |publisher = McFarland |isbn = 978-0-7864-3763-4 }} * {{cite book |last = Roberts |first = Paul G. |title = Style Icons Vol 1 Golden Boys |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=S7KqBAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT103 |date = 2014 |publisher = Fashion Industry Broadcast |isbn = 978-1-62776-032-4 }} * {{cite book |last = Rood |first = Karen Lane |title = American culture after World War II |url = https://archive.org/details/americanculturea00rood |url-access = registration |date =1994 |publisher = Gale Research |isbn = 978-0-8103-8481-1 }} * {{cite book |last = Rothman |first = William |title = Must We Kill the Thing We Love?: Emersonian Perfectionism and the Films of Alfred Hitchcock |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=NcjbAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA71 |date = 2014 |publisher = Columbia University Press |isbn = 978-0-231-53730-8 }} * {{cite book |last1 = Royce |first1 = William |last2 = Donaldson |first2 = Maureen |title = An Affair to Remember: My Life With Cary Grant |url = https://archive.org/details/affairtoremember00dona |url-access = registration |year = 1989 |publisher = Putnam |isbn = 978-0399134500 }} * {{cite book |last = Schickel |first = Richard |title = Cary Grant: A Celebration by Richard Schickel |publisher = Pavilion Books |year = 1998 |isbn = 978-1-86205-018-1 }} * {{cite book |last = Schickel |first = Richard |title = Cary Grant: A Celebration |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=Dao5AQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT28 |date = 2009 |publisher = Little, Brown |isbn = 978-0-316-09032-2 }} * {{cite book |last = Seymour |first = Miranda |title = Chaplin's Girl: The Life and Loves of Virginia Cherrill |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=gUZMA5w1uZUC&amp;pg=PT114 |date = 2009 |publisher = Simon and Schuster |isbn = 978-1-84737-737-1 }} * {{cite book |last = Shevey |first = Sandra |title = The Marilyn Scandal |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=ZiW0lE15fZcC |date = 1990 |publisher = Arrow |isbn = 978-0-09-960760-1 }} * {{cite book |last = Silverman |first = Stephen M. |title = Dancing on the ceiling: Stanley Donen and his movies |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=8GhZAAAAMAAJ |date = 1996 |publisher = Knopf |isbn = 978-0-679-41412-4 }} * {{cite book |last = Slide |first = Anthony |title = The Encyclopedia of Vaudeville |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=Hu3nNSmRjZ0C&amp;pg=PA211 |date = 2012 |publisher = Univ. Press of Mississippi |isbn = 978-1-61703-250-9 }} * {{cite AV media |people=Trachtenberg, Robert (writer, director, producer); Jaynes, Barbara Grant (co-producer) |year=2004 |title=Cary Grant: A Class Apart|location=Burbank, California |publisher= [[Turner Classic Movies]] (TCM) and [[Turner Entertainment]] |type=Motion picture documentary |language= en |url=https://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/450555/cary-grant-a-class-apart#overview |id=Running time: 1:27 |ref={{sfnref|Trachtenberg|Jaynes|2004}} }} * {{cite book |last = Traubner |first = Richard |title = Operetta: A Theatrical History |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=tkCTAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA115 |date = 2004 |publisher = Routledge |isbn = 978-1-135-88783-4 }} * {{cite book |last = Turk |first = Edward Baron |title = Hollywood Diva: A Biography of Jeanette MacDonald |url = https://archive.org/details/hollywooddivabio0000turk |url-access = registration |page = [https://archive.org/details/hollywooddivabio0000turk/page/350 350] |date = 1998 |publisher = University of California Press |isbn = 978-0-520-92457-4 }} * {{cite book |last = Vermilye |first = Jerry |title = Cary Grant |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=ZOpkAAAAMAAJ |date = 1973 |publisher = Pyramid Publications |isbn = 978-0-515-03246-8 }} * {{cite book |last = Walker |first = Elsie |title = Understanding Sound Tracks Through Film Theory |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=SwcIBgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA187 |year = 2015 |publisher = Oxford University Press |isbn = 978-0-19-989632-5 }} * {{cite book |last = Wansell |first = Geoffrey |title = Cary Grant, Dark Angel |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=xjAhAgAAQBAJ |year = 2011 |orig-year = 1996 |publisher = [[Skyhorse Publishing]] |isbn = 978-1-62872-336-6 }} * {{cite book |last = Wansell |first = Geoffrey |title = Cary Grant, Dark Angel |url = https://archive.org/details/carygrantdarkang00wans |url-access = registration |year = 1996 |publisher = [[Arcade Publishing]] |isbn = 978-1-55970-369-7 }} * {{cite book |last = Wansell |first = Geoffrey |title = Cary Grant, Haunted Idol |url = https://archive.org/details/carygranthaunted0000wans |url-access = registration |date = 1983 |publisher = Collins |isbn = 978-0002163712 }} * {{cite book |last = Weiten |first = Wayne |title = Psychology: Themes and Variations |url = https://books.google.com/books?id=TWDWAAAAMAAJ |year = 1996 |publisher = Brooks/Cole |isbn = 978-0-534-33926-5 }} {{div col end}} ==Further reading== * {{cite journal |last1=Crofts |first1=Charlotte |title=Bristol Fashion: Reclaiming Cary Grant for Bristol – Film Heritage, Screen Tourism and Curating the Cary Comes Home Festival |journal=Open Screens |date=December 31, 2021 |volume=4 |issue=2 |doi=10.16995/OS.8018 |url=https://www.openscreensjournal.com/article/id/8018/ |access-date=May 9, 2022 |language=en |issn=2516-2888|doi-access=free }} * {{cite book|last=Eyman|first=Scott|author-link=Scott Eyman|title=Cary Grant: A Brilliant Disguise|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gejNDwAAQBAJ|date=2020|publisher=Simon &amp; Schuster|isbn=978-1-5011-9212-8|ref=none}} * {{Cite book|last=Glancy|first=Mark|year=2020|title=Cary Grant: The Making of a Hollywood Legend|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=3vQTEAAAQBAJ|publisher=Oxford University Press|isbn=978-0-1900-5313-0|ref=none}} == External links == {{Sister project links |collapsible=true |wikt=no |s=no |v=no |b=no}} * {{IMDb name}} * {{Amg name|8478}} * {{Tcmdb name}} * {{IBDB name}} * {{NPG name}} * {{Playbill person}} * {{cite web |title = Archibald Leach's entry in the England/Wales Census |year = 1911 |url = https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/1GP5-Y94/p_10351531937 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20120419072833/https://familysearch.org/pal%3A/MM9.1.2/1GP5-Y94/p_10351531937 |archive-date = April 19, 2012 |publisher = Familysearch.org |access-date = June 18, 2016 |url-status=dead}} * {{cite web |url = https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/MS4P-MQF/p1 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20120419073247/https://familysearch.org/pal%3A/MM9.1.2/MS4P-MQF/p1 |archive-date = April 19, 2012 |year = 1920 |title = Archibald Leach's US immigration record |publisher = Familysearch.org |access-date = June 18, 2016 |url-status=dead}} * {{cite web |url = https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/86HV-N6Z/p_12933692915 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20120419073724/https://familysearch.org/pal%3A/MM9.1.2/86HV-N6Z/p_12933692915 |archive-date = April 19, 2012 |title = Social Security Death index |year = 1986 |publisher = Familysearch.org |access-date = June 18, 2016 |url-status=dead}} * {{cite book |url = http://catalog.oscars.org/vwebv/holdingsInfo?bibId=66252 |title = Cary Grant papers |via = Margaret Herrick Library |author = Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences |access-date = June 18, 2016|ref=none}} * {{cite web |url = https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS2B-6WWJ-R?i=377&amp;cc=2786603&amp;personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQGF9-F1SV |title = Cary Grant – WW2 Draft Registration Card |website = [[FamilySearch]] }} {{Navboxes | title = Awards for Cary Grant | list = {{Academy Honorary Award}} {{David di Donatello for Best Foreign Actor}} {{Kennedy Center Honorees 1980s}} }} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Grant, Cary}} [[Category:1904 births]] [[Category:1986 deaths]] [[Category:20th-century American male actors]] [[Category:20th-century English male actors]] [[Category:Academy Honorary Award recipients]] [[Category:American autobiographers]] [[Category:American male film actors]] [[Category:American male radio actors]] [[Category:American male stage actors]] [[Category:American vaudeville performers]] [[Category:Columbia Pictures contract players]] [[Category:David di Donatello winners]] [[Category:English autobiographers]] [[Category:English emigrants to the United States]] [[Category:English expatriate male actors in the United States]] [[Category:English male film actors]] [[Category:English male radio actors]] [[Category:English male stage actors]] [[Category:English vaudeville performers]] [[Category:Kennedy Center honorees]] [[Category:Male actors from Bristol]] [[Category:Male actors from New York City]] [[Category:Naturalized citizens of the United States]] [[Category:Paramount Pictures contract players]] [[Category:People educated at Fairfield Grammar School]] [[Category:RKO Pictures contract players]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Renaissance_World_Tour&diff=1259245827</id> <title>Renaissance World Tour</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Renaissance_World_Tour&diff=1259245827"/> <updated>2024-11-24T04:23:19Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: fmt <hr /> <div>{{Short description|2023 concert tour by Beyoncé}} {{About|the concert tour|its companion film|Renaissance: A Film by Beyoncé}} {{Use mdy dates|date=February 2023}} {{Infobox concert | concert_tour_name = Renaissance World Tour | image = [[File:Renaissance World Tour.jpg|frameless]] | alt = | caption = Promotional poster for the tour | artist = [[Beyoncé]] | location = {{flatlist| * Europe * North America }} | album = ''[[Renaissance (Beyoncé album)|Renaissance]]'' | start_date = {{Start date|2023|5|10}} | end_date = {{End date|2023|10|1}} | number_of_shows = 56 | attendance = 2.78 million | gross = $579 million | last_tour = [[On the Run II Tour]]&lt;br /&gt;(2018) | this_tour = '''Renaissance World Tour'''&lt;br /&gt;(2023) | next_tour = ... | website = {{URL|tour.beyonce.com}} | next_show = | tour = }} The '''Renaissance World Tour''' was the ninth [[concert tour]] by American singer and songwriter [[Beyoncé]]. Her highest-grossing tour to date, it was staged in support of her seventh studio album, ''[[Renaissance (Beyoncé album)|Renaissance]]'' (2022). The tour comprised 56 shows, beginning on May 10, 2023, in [[Stockholm]], [[Sweden]], and concluding on October 1, 2023, in [[Kansas City, Missouri]]. It was Beyoncé's first tour since the [[On the Run II Tour]] in 2018, and was her fourth all-[[stadium]] tour. The concerts lasted between two and a half and three hours and were split into six or seven acts, with Beyoncé performing the tracks from ''Renaissance'' in order, interspersed with songs from across her discography. The stage consisted of a giant screen with a large &quot;portal&quot; in its center, and featured sculptures, robotic arms and ultraviolet technology. According to official figures provided by ''[[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]'' Boxscore, the tour broke ticket sales records worldwide, becoming the [[List of highest-grossing concert tours|seventh-highest-grossing concert tour of all time]],&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Frankenberg |first=Eric |date=2023-10-13 |title=Billboard Boxscore Top 10 Tours of All Time: Beyoncé Breaks Ground |url=https://www.billboard.com/lists/billboard-boxscore-top-10-tours-all-time-elton-john-harry-styles/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240324015548/https://www.billboard.com/lists/billboard-boxscore-top-10-tours-all-time-elton-john-harry-styles/roger-waters-the-wall-live-2010-13/ |archive-date=March 24, 2024 |access-date=July 4, 2024 |website=Billboard |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; the [[List of highest-grossing concert tours by women|highest-grossing tour of all time by a female artist]],&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Frankenberg |first=Eric |date=2023-09-28 |title=Beyoncé Re-Sets Monthly Boxscore Record With $179 Million in August |url=https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-monthly-touring-record-boxsco9re/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240507170505/https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-monthly-touring-record-boxscore/ |archive-date=May 7, 2024 |access-date=July 4, 2024 |website=Billboard |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; and the highest-grossing tour of all time by a black artist. It also achieved the three highest monthly tour grosses in history and ranked at number one on the Top Tours Year End 2023 list.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Frankenberg |first=Eric |date=2023-09-28 |title=Beyoncé Re-Sets Monthly Boxscore Record With $179 Million in August |url=https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-monthly-touring-record-boxscore/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240507170505/https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-monthly-touring-record-boxscore/ |archive-date=May 7, 2024 |access-date=July 4, 2024 |website=Billboard |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Frankenberg |first=Eric |date=2023-11-30 |title=Beyoncé Scores Biggest Boxscore Earnings of 2023 |url=https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-highest-grossing-tour-boxscore-earnings-2023/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240403224050/https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-highest-grossing-tour-boxscore-earnings-2023/ |archive-date=April 3, 2024 |access-date= |website=Billboard |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; The shows received critical acclaim, with particular praise for the production value and Beyoncé's vocal performances. The tour boosted both local and national economies and was a sociocultural phenomenon. ''[[Renaissance: A Film by Beyoncé]]'', which chronicles the creation and execution of the tour, was released in cinemas on December 1, 2023. == Background == The tour was teased on October 23, 2022, when Beyoncé auctioned a ticket for an unspecified show. It was sold for $50,000 in a [[charity auction]]&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine|url=https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/beyonce-2023-renaissance-tour-tickets-auctioned-charity-gala-1234616726/|last=Paul|first=Larisha|magazine=[[Rolling Stone]]|date=October 24, 2022|access-date=February 2, 2023|title=Beyoncé Quietly Confirmed Summer 2023 'Renaissance' Tour at Charity Auction|archive-date=February 3, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230203162056/https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/beyonce-2023-renaissance-tour-tickets-auctioned-charity-gala-1234616726/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; at the Wearable Art Gala to support the [[Tina Knowles#Where Art Can Occur (WACO) Theater Center|WACO Theatre]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Loffhagen |first=Emma |date=October 24, 2022 |title=Beyoncé teases summer Renaissance tour at California's Wearable Art Gala |url=https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/beyonce-teases-summer-renaissance-tour-wearable-art-gala-b1034723.html |access-date=February 2, 2023 |website=[[Evening Standard]] |language=en |archive-date=February 2, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230202164718/https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/beyonce-teases-summer-renaissance-tour-wearable-art-gala-b1034723.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; It included two tickets to the concert, first-class [[airfare]], a three-night hotel stay, and a personal backstage tour led by [[Tina Knowles|Beyoncé's mother]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Minsker|first1=Evan|last2=Hussey|first2=Allison|url=https://pitchfork.com/news/beyonce-announces-2023-renaissance-world-tour/|title=Beyoncé Announces Renaissance World Tour|website=[[Pitchfork (website)|Pitchfork]]|date=February 1, 2023|access-date=February 3, 2023|archive-date=February 2, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230202232439/https://pitchfork.com/news/beyonce-announces-2023-renaissance-world-tour/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; On February 1, 2023, Beyoncé announced the tour via her [[Instagram]] account.&lt;ref name=&quot;Variety 1&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last=Aswad |first=Jem |date=February 1, 2023 |title=Beyonce Announces 'Renaissance' Stadium Tour and Dates |url=https://variety.com/2023/music/news/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-1235508233/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230201143547/https://variety.com/2023/music/news/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-1235508233/ |archive-date=February 1, 2023 |access-date=February 1, 2023 |website=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In March 2023, Business leaders in western [[Sydney]] began advocating for [[Stadium Australia|Accor Stadium]] to take priority over [[Sydney Football Stadium (2022)|Allianz Stadium]] for a Beyoncé concert in [[New South Wales]], due to Accor having twice the audience capacity to accommodate her ticket demand.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.smh.com.au/culture/music/sydney-s-east-and-west-battle-it-out-for-beyonce-concert-20230504-p5d5i8.html|title=Sydney's east and west battle it out for Beyonce concert|date=May 9, 2023|access-date=May 9, 2023|last=Morris|first=Linda|website=[[The Sydney Morning Herald]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; The possibility of Allianz Stadium securing a Renaissance World Tour concert has chiefly provoked the [[New South Wales government]] to end a 57-year ban on holding more than four concerts per year at the stadium.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |date=April 26, 2023 |title=Why acts like Beyonce and Foo Fighters won't be allowed to perform at Allianz Stadium |url=https://www.2gb.com/why-acts-like-beyonce-and-foo-fighters-wont-be-allowed-to-perform-at-allianz-stadium/ |last=O'Keefe |first=Chris |website=[[2GB]] |access-date=May 6, 2023 |archive-date=May 6, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230506115213/https://www.2gb.com/why-acts-like-beyonce-and-foo-fighters-wont-be-allowed-to-perform-at-allianz-stadium/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The ban could be lifted as soon as October 2023 to allow the venue to host Beyoncé in 2024. The [[Premier of New South Wales]] said that this could bring local businesses &quot;an additional $1.3 billion.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |date=May 2, 2023 |title=Sydney to get more concerts as stadium cap to be lifted |url=https://au.news.yahoo.com/sydney-more-concerts-stadium-cap-212918547.html?guccounter=1&amp;guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&amp;guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADs-Tl0XXmLdXXvOAb78Bbh8U2zjye8c3XOR3u6iLHbHB3DsJmcQY6e_z-oSUbvszDU2jNkt1_IOReUJkBhKEYrKVO4HiqHdlpFRKQPkUaroRn9qsptLF7OhjqWB7zdq3kQhKmreHrpTcYczOyyuoV9uZjLGFTukzEcaMFXrix1k |access-date=May 6, 2023 |website=[[Australian Associated Press]] |archive-date=May 6, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230506115213/https://au.news.yahoo.com/sydney-more-concerts-stadium-cap-212918547.html?guccounter=1&amp;guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&amp;guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADs-Tl0XXmLdXXvOAb78Bbh8U2zjye8c3XOR3u6iLHbHB3DsJmcQY6e_z-oSUbvszDU2jNkt1_IOReUJkBhKEYrKVO4HiqHdlpFRKQPkUaroRn9qsptLF7OhjqWB7zdq3kQhKmreHrpTcYczOyyuoV9uZjLGFTukzEcaMFXrix1k |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The concert cap has existed since 1965 due to noise complaints from nearby residents, but now the government is pushing to increase it to 20 concerts per year.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Hirini |first=Rangi |website=[[The Sunday Times (Western Australia)|Perth Now]]|date=February 8, 2023 |title=Beyonce rumored to be planning Australian leg of Renaissance World Tour after snub |url=https://www.perthnow.com.au/entertainment/celebrity/beyonce-rumoured-to-be-planning-australian-leg-of-renaissance-world-tour-after-snub-c-9692270 |access-date=May 6, 2023 |archive-date=May 6, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230506115213/https://www.perthnow.com.au/entertainment/celebrity/beyonce-rumoured-to-be-planning-australian-leg-of-renaissance-world-tour-after-snub-c-9692270 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In April 2023, Beyoncé rented an indoor arena, [[Paris La Défense Arena]], in [[Nanterre]], to rehearse for the tour.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Mirror.co.uk |date=April 15, 2023 |title=Beyonce renting Europe's largest indoor arena to rehearse 'groundbreaking' show |url=https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/us-celebrity-news/beyonce-renting-europes-largest-indoor-29717048 |access-date=May 2, 2023 |website=[[Daily Mirror|mirror]] |language=en |archive-date=May 2, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230502133048/https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/us-celebrity-news/beyonce-renting-europes-largest-indoor-29717048 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; She underwent knee surgery just a month before the rehearsals and was in [[Physical therapy|rehab]] while the tour started.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.vox.com/culture/2023/12/5/23988555/renaissance-movie-review-beyonce|title=Renaissance isn't a deification of Beyoncé. It's a reminder she's human.|date=2023-12-05|access-date=2023-12-11|last=Abad-Santos|first=Alex|website=Vox|archive-date=December 12, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231212112243/https://www.vox.com/culture/2023/12/5/23988555/renaissance-movie-review-beyonce|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Khirye Tyler and Dammo Farmer are credited as the tour's music directors, with Damien Smith as head of the music production and [[Tiffany Monique|Tiffany Moníque Ryan]] as Vocal Director.&lt;ref name=&quot;:21&quot;&gt;{{cite magazine|url=https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/beyonce-renaissance-tour-credits-1235331591|title=Beyoncé Unveils Full List of Renaissance Tour Credits|last=Aniftos|first=Rania|magazine=[[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|date=May 17, 2023|access-date=June 25, 2023|archive-date=June 23, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230623133506/https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/beyonce-renaissance-tour-credits-1235331591/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Producer [[Amorphous (DJ)|Amorphous]] assisted with the show's musical arrangements,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=May 19, 2023 |title=Kobe Bryant's Daughter Natalia Working as Beyoncé's Intern for Renaissance Tour |url=https://www.teenvogue.com/story/kobe-bryant-daughter-natalia-bryant-beyonce-intern-renaissance-tour |last=Khan |first=Aamina |access-date=June 25, 2023 |website=[[Teen Vogue]] |language=en-US |archive-date=June 13, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230613134729/https://www.teenvogue.com/story/kobe-bryant-daughter-natalia-bryant-beyonce-intern-renaissance-tour |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; while composer [[Emily Bear]] was the featured pianist for the tour.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Schobinger|first=Meghan|url=https://www.wifr.com/2023/05/10/emily-bear-tour-with-beyonc|title=Emily Bear on tour with Beyoncé|work=[[WIFR-LD]]|date=May 10, 2023|access-date=May 11, 2023|archive-date=June 30, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230630170310/https://www.wifr.com/2023/05/10/emily-bear-tour-with-beyonc/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Ticketing == Alongside the announcement of the tour, it was also announced that a public on-sale for the North American leg would initially not happen, with all initial ticket sales for the leg using [[Ticketmaster]]'s Verified Fan system. In addition, all the cities in the North American leg of the tour would be split into three different registration groups that would all have different registration periods and on-sale times. Jay Peters of ''[[The Verge]]'' noted that this spreading out of demand appeared to be an attempt by Ticketmaster to prevent an incident identical to the [[2022 Ticketmaster controversy|2022 Ticketmaster fiasco]] of [[Taylor Swift]]'s [[The Eras Tour|Eras Tour]] that had occurred less than three months earlier, in which the website crashed during the Verified Fan presale. Peters questioned how effective the strategy would be since people could sign up for each of the registration groups instead of just one.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Peters |first=Jay |date=2023-02-01 |title=Beyoncé fans may be the next to release their anger at Ticketmaster |url=https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/1/23581526/beyonce-reinassance-world-tour-ticketmaster-verified-fan |access-date=2023-02-02 |website=[[The Verge]] |language=en-US |archive-date=February 2, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230202223249/https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/1/23581526/beyonce-reinassance-world-tour-ticketmaster-verified-fan |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In light of the mismanagement of Swift's concert ticket sales, and the [[United States congressional hearing|U.S. Senate hearing]] it sparked,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Sisario |first1=Ben |last2=Stevens |first2=Matt |date=2023-01-24 |title=Ticketmaster Cast as a Powerful 'Monopoly' at Senate Hearing |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/24/arts/music/ticketmaster-taylor-swift-senate-hearing.html |access-date=2023-02-03 |newspaper=[[The New York Times]] |archive-date=February 3, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230203222404/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/24/arts/music/ticketmaster-taylor-swift-senate-hearing.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; the [[United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary|Senate Judiciary Committee]] tweeted from their official Twitter account, &quot;We're watching, @Ticketmaster,&quot; in reference to the Renaissance World Tour ticketing.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite tweet |author=Senate Judiciary Committee |user=JudiciaryDems |number=1621191756531236866 |title=We're watching, @Ticketmaster.|date=February 2, 2023 |access-date=February 3, 2023 |language=en |link=https://twitter.com/JudiciaryDems/status/1621191756531236866}}&lt;/ref&gt; In light of this, Ticketmaster has implemented new policies to try and combat difficulty for concertgoers and to &quot;create a less crowded ticket shopping experience for fans&quot;. Registration does not guarantee a ticket. Instead, a &quot;lottery-style process&quot; affects who is placed on the waitlist and who is given a unique access code after registering as a Verified Fan.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://ktla.com/entertainment/ticketmaster-changes-policies-ahead-of-beyonce-ticket-sales/|title=Ticketmaster changes policies ahead of Beyoncé ticket sales|last=Samra|first=Christine|date=2023-02-02|website=[[KTLA]]|access-date=2023-02-12|archive-date=February 3, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230203215213/https://ktla.com/entertainment/ticketmaster-changes-policies-ahead-of-beyonce-ticket-sales/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Tickets bought in European markets also cannot be resold on Ticketmaster for more than their original price.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://en.as.com/entertainment/the-changes-ticketmaster-are-implementing-for-beyonces-renaissance-tour-n/|title=The changes Ticketmaster are implementing for Beyonce's 'Renaissance' tour|date=2023-02-03|access-date=2023-02-03|last=Boin|first=Adriano|website=[[Diario AS]]|archive-date=February 3, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230203215215/https://en.as.com/entertainment/the-changes-ticketmaster-are-implementing-for-beyonces-renaissance-tour-n/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Production == === Staging and lighting === The tour was planned in the lapse of four years and three identical stages for the show were developed, with one stage being set up in a city while the other two travelled to be constructed in the following destinations.&lt;ref name=&quot;vulturerwt&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.vulture.com/2023/12/renaissance-film-beyonce-takeaways.html|title=Swarm on These Hands|website=Vulture|date=2023-12-01|access-date=2023-12-11|archive-date=December 11, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231211104717/https://www.vulture.com/2023/12/renaissance-film-beyonce-takeaways.html|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; The design process took eighteen months and was held in charge by [[Es Devlin|Es Devlin Studio]] and Stufish Entertainment Architects, along with Beyoncé and her creative team, [[Parkwood Entertainment|Parkwood]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Collins |first=Charlotte |date=2023-05-26 |title=Unpacking the Symbolism of Queen Bey's Disco Cowboy Wonderland |url=https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/beyonces-renaissance-exhilarating-big-budget-stage-design |access-date=May 26, 2023 |website=[[Architectural Digest]] |language=en-US |archive-date=May 26, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230526120706/https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/beyonces-renaissance-exhilarating-big-budget-stage-design |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Devlin |first=Esmeralda &quot;Es&quot; |date=29 May 2023 |title=Instagram post |url=https://www.instagram.com/p/Cs1u7ChMVLu/ |access-date=May 30, 2023 |archive-date=May 30, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230530174814/https://www.instagram.com/p/Cs1u7ChMVLu/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The staging consists of two separate platforms connected by a broad ramp: the A stage with a circle shaped cavity in the middle of a giant, flat screen; while the B stage is subdivided in a circumferenced structure surrounding the so-called VIP section &quot;Club Renaissance&quot;, with an extension of the ramp acting as the [[radius]] of the layout.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=May 12, 2023 |title=Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour: A Dazzling Spectacle |url=https://www.globalvillagespace.com/beyonces-renaissance-tour-a-dazzling-spectacle/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230513171416/https://www.globalvillagespace.com/beyonces-renaissance-tour-a-dazzling-spectacle/ |archive-date=May 13, 2023 |access-date=May 15, 2023 |website=Global Village Space |language=en-GB}}&lt;/ref&gt; It also features monumental sculptures and metallic [[tank]]s, mannequin-horses, [[robotic arm]]s, pyrotechnics and [[ultraviolet]] technology.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Avila |first=Fernanda |date=May 11, 2023 |title=Caballos voladores, robots y vestidos futuristas: así arranca Beyoncé su &quot;Renaissance World Tour&quot; |trans-title=Flying horses, robots and a futuristic wardrobe: Beyoncé kicks off her &quot;Renaissance World Tour&quot; |url=https://www.elsoldemexico.com.mx/gossip/celebridades/beyonce-arranca-gira-renaissance-world-tour-impacta-con-su-produccion-videos-10050205.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230512022715/https://www.elsoldemexico.com.mx/gossip/celebridades/beyonce-arranca-gira-renaissance-world-tour-impacta-con-su-produccion-videos-10050205.html |archive-date=May 12, 2023 |access-date=May 15, 2023 |website=[[Organización Editorial Mexicana|El Sol de México]] |language=es}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Yeates |first=Cydney |date=May 30, 2023 |title=Beyoncé's Set Designer Breaks Down Epic Renaissance Tour Staging |url=https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/beyonce-renaissance-tour-set-designer-breaks-down-staging_uk_6475c627e4b0a7554f4084d1 |access-date=June 23, 2023 |website=[[HuffPost]] |language=en-GB |archive-date=June 3, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230603201131/https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/beyonce-renaissance-tour-set-designer-breaks-down-staging_uk_6475c627e4b0a7554f4084d1 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Beyoncé was treated for [[bronchitis]] and had nearly continual [[sinus infections]] as a result of excess [[Smoke inhalation|inhalation of the various smoke effects]] on stage.&lt;ref name=&quot;vulturerwt&quot; /&gt; === Costume design === {{multiple image | perrow = 2 | total_width = 215 | image1 = Beyoncé - Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - 1st June 2023 (93 of 118) (52946284715) (cropped).jpg | image2 = Beyoncé - Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - 1st June 2023 (35 of 118) (52946287085) (cropped).jpg | image3 = Beyoncé - Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - 1st June 2023 (25 of 118) (52946287590) (cropped).jpg | image4 = Beyoncé - Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - 1st June 2023 (104 of 118) (52946039919) (cropped).jpg | footer = Costumes included, clockwise from top left, [[Loewe (fashion brand)|Loewe]], [[David Koma]], [[Mugler]] by Casey Cadwallader, and [[André Courrèges|Courrèges]]. }} Beyoncé had multiple outfit changes throughout the show, under the styling of Shiona Turini.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=McWhirter |first=Fiona |date=May 13, 2023 |title=Shiona Turini sets the style for Beyoncé |url=https://www.royalgazette.com/entertainment/news/article/20230513/shiona-turini-sets-the-style-for-beyonce/ |access-date=May 15, 2023 |website=[[The Royal Gazette (Bermuda)|The Royal Gazette]] |language=en-US |archive-date=May 16, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230516001130/https://www.royalgazette.com/entertainment/news/article/20230513/shiona-turini-sets-the-style-for-beyonce/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The wardrobe features a silver beaded [[Alexander McQueen (brand)|Alexander McQueen]] catsuit, a white bell-sleeved Anrealage gown that transformed into a multicolored masterpiece underneath a UV light, a custom silver [[André Courrèges|Courrèges]] bodysuit with a striking circular cutout, a pearl-embellished [[Balmain (fashion house)|Balmain]] bodysuit, hat and sunglasses, a metallic feathered frock courtesy of Coperni, a colorful mesh minidress by [[David Koma]], a bejeweled [[Loewe (fashion brand)|Loewe]] bodysuit, and a bee costume by [[Thierry Mugler]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Wheeler |first=André-Naquian |date=May 10, 2023 |title=Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour Looks Are Club-Ready Couture |url=https://www.vogue.com/article/beyonces-renaissance-tour-looks-are-club-ready-couture |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230512141855/https://www.vogue.com/article/beyonces-renaissance-tour-looks-are-club-ready-couture |archive-date=May 12, 2023 |access-date=May 16, 2023 |website=[[Vogue (magazine)|Vogue]]|language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; Additional accessories and jewelry were custom-made by [[Tiffany &amp; Co.|Tiffany &amp; Co]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Ray |first=Justin |date=May 12, 2023 |title=Tiffany &amp; Co. Is the Official Jeweler for Beyoncé's 'Renaissance' World Tour, Because She's That Girl |url=https://robbreport.com/lifestyle/news/tiffany-co-beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-1234843226/ |access-date=May 16, 2023 |website=[[Robb Report]] |language=en-US |archive-date=May 16, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230516001128/https://robbreport.com/lifestyle/news/tiffany-co-beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-1234843226/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Among the collection of designer pieces, [[Mykita|MYKITA]] sunglasses are also part of the variety of ensembles showcased in the show.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Carlson |first=Jens |date=May 14, 2023 |title=Beyoncé Wows Stockholm with Sci-Fi Disco Show Featuring Mykita Satori Suns |url=https://invisionmag.com/beyonce-wows-stockholm-with-sci-fi-disco-show-featuring-mykita-satori-suns/|access-date=July 21, 2023 |website=InvisionMag |language=en-US |archive-date=June 1, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230601150557/https://invisionmag.com/beyonce-wows-stockholm-with-sci-fi-disco-show-featuring-mykita-satori-suns/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Beyoncé wore 148 costumes over the tour's run,&lt;ref name=&quot;vulturerwt&quot; /&gt; many of which honored local designers at each stop of the tour, including [[Jacquemus]] in Marseille, [[Robert Wun]] and [[Stella McCartney]] in London, [[Iris van Herpen]] in Amsterdam, and a [[Fendi]] design inspired by the artist [[Antonio Lopez (illustrator)|Antonio Lopez]] in Barcelona.&lt;ref name=&quot;:10&quot;&gt;{{cite web|last=Wheeler|first=André-Naquian|title=Beyoncé's ''Renaissance'' World Tour Wardrobe Is Fashion Diplomacy at Its Finest|date=Jun 13, 2023|website=Vogue|url=https://www.vogue.com/article/beyonces-renaissance-world-tour-wardrobe-is-fashion-diplomacy-at-its-finest?redirectURL=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vogue.com%2Farticle%2Fbeyonces-renaissance-world-tour-wardrobe-is-fashion-diplomacy-at-its-finest|access-date=June 25, 2023|archive-date=June 30, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230630170308/https://www.vogue.com/article/beyonces-renaissance-world-tour-wardrobe-is-fashion-diplomacy-at-its-finest?redirectURL=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vogue.com%2Farticle%2Fbeyonces-renaissance-world-tour-wardrobe-is-fashion-diplomacy-at-its-finest|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Allaire|first=Christian|title=Beyoncé Wears Her Most Ethereal ''Renaissance'' Tour Look Yet|website=Vogue|date=Jun 17, 2023|url=https://www.vogue.com/article/beyonce-iris-van-herpen-renaissance-fashion|access-date=June 25, 2023|archive-date=June 21, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230621234052/https://www.vogue.com/article/beyonce-iris-van-herpen-renaissance-fashion|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; For the June 18 show in Amsterdam, Beyoncé celebrated the [[Juneteenth]] holiday by wearing exclusively Black designers, including Feben, [[Maximilian Davis]] for [[Ferragamo]], [[Olivier Rousteing]] for Balmain, [[Ib Kamara]] for [[Off-White (company)|Off-White]], [[LaQuan Smith]], and her own [[Ivy Park]] collection.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Beyoncé Wore Only Black Designers on Stage to Mark Juneteenth|date=Jun 19, 2023|website=Vogue|url=https://www.vogue.com/article/beyonce-juneteenth-renaissance-world-tour|access-date=June 25, 2023|archive-date=June 22, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230622110246/https://www.vogue.com/article/beyonce-juneteenth-renaissance-world-tour|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Synopsis== The show lasts between two and a half and three hours. It is structured into six distinct acts in which Beyoncé performs most songs from ''Renaissance'' in the album order, interspersed with songs from throughout her catalog.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Duke |first=Simon |date=2023-05-20 |title=Beyonce support act details ahead of Renaissance tour in Sunderland |url=https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/whats-on/music-nightlife-news/beyonce-support-renaissance-tour-sunderland-26940478 |access-date=2023-05-22 |website=ChronicleLive |language=en |archive-date=May 22, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230522124824/https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/whats-on/music-nightlife-news/beyonce-support-renaissance-tour-sunderland-26940478 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; As the audience enters the stadium, the screen showcases an image inspired by the [[SMPTE color bars]] with additional bars that, as a whole, represent the [[Rainbow flag (LGBT)#Variations|Progress Pride Flag]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Mendez |first=Moises |date=2023-05-11 |title=What We Learned From Night One of Beyoncé's Renaissance World Tour |url=https://time.com/6279121/beyonce-renaissance-tour-night-one/ |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230514091135/https://time.com/6279121/beyonce-renaissance-tour-night-one/ |archive-date=2023-05-14 |access-date=2024-01-03 |magazine=Time |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The '''Opening Act''' is performed by Beyoncé herself, in which she sings R&amp;B ballads from earlier in her discography.&lt;ref name=&quot;rssynopsis&quot;&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Spanos |first=Brittany |date=2023-05-10 |title=Here's Everything That Happened During Beyoncé's Once-in-a-Lifetime 'Renaissance' Tour Opener |url=https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/beyonces-renaissance-tour-opener-full-1234733038/ |access-date=2023-05-22 |magazine=Rolling Stone |language=en-US |archive-date=May 11, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230511115140/https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/beyonces-renaissance-tour-opener-full-1234733038/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Pink clouds are shown on the screen as an image of a glitching signboard rises, forming a picture of Beyoncé in a pose similar to [[Giorgione]]'s [[Sleeping Venus (Giorgione)|''Sleeping Venus'']]. The singer rises onto the main stage to perform &quot;[[Dangerously in Love 2]]&quot; and welcomes the audience. &quot;[[Flaws and All]]&quot; and &quot;[[1+1 (song)|1+1]]&quot; continue the set before a cover of [[Rose Royce]]'s &quot;[[I'm Going Down (Rose Royce song)|I'm Going Down]]&quot;. The Opening Act ends with a performance of &quot;[[I Care (Beyoncé song)|I Care]]&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Qureshi |first=Bilal |date=2023-05-11 |title=Beyoncé's 'Renaissance' tour remixes her archive for an intergalactic future: NPR |url=https://www.npr.org/2023/05/11/1175502912/beyonce-renaissance-tour-review |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230512200406/https://www.npr.org/2023/05/11/1175502912/beyonce-renaissance-tour-review |archive-date=2023-05-12 |access-date=2023-05-15 |website=[[NPR]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Beyoncé - Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - 1st June 2023 (26 of 118) (52946364123).jpg|thumb|238x238px|Beyoncé performing &quot;I'm That Girl&quot;.]] A visual interlude marks the next act as '''Renaissance''',&lt;ref name=&quot;:6&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Singh |first=Surej |date=May 11, 2023 |title=Here's what Beyoncé performed during her 'Renaissance' tour kickoff |url=https://www.nme.com/news/music/beyonce-renaissance-tour-setlist-footage-3441886 |access-date=June 23, 2023 |website=[[NME]] |language=en-GB |archive-date=June 23, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230623140729/https://www.nme.com/news/music/beyonce-renaissance-tour-setlist-footage-3441886 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; showing a maximalist montage of intergalactic travel and robotic machines reminiscent of [[Fritz Lang]]'s 1927 sci-fi film ''[[Metropolis (1927 film)|Metropolis]]''.&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot; /&gt; This robot-themed segment of the show is interspersed with spoken word interludes from legendary commentator [[Kevin Jz Prodigy]] in an homage to [[ball culture]]. As the voice asks if the audience is 'ready to serve' and 'ready to slay', Beyoncé performs the first track from ''Renaissance'', &quot;I'm That Girl&quot;. Beyoncé then performs &quot;[[Cozy (song)|Cozy]]&quot; with two mechanical arms holding silver frames interacting with her as she dances.&lt;ref name=&quot;:9&quot;/&gt; She then performs &quot;[[Alien Superstar]]&quot;, with elements of &quot;[[Sweet Dreams (Beyoncé song)|Sweet Dreams]]&quot;, followed by &quot;[[Lift Off (song)|Lift Off]]&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;rssynopsis&quot;/&gt; The French dance duo [[Les Twins]] perform a dance break to &quot;[[7/11 (song)|7/11]]&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;:9&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Wang |first=Steffanee |date=May 11, 2023 |title=A Complete Recap Of Beyoncé's Space-Futuristic 'Renaissance' Tour |url=https://www.nylon.com/entertainment/beyonce-renaissance-tour-recap-songs-stage-setlist |access-date=June 23, 2023 |website=[[Nylon (magazine)|Nylon]] |language=en |archive-date=May 22, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230522124826/https://www.nylon.com/entertainment/beyonce-renaissance-tour-recap-songs-stage-setlist |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The party-themed '''Motherboard''' act starts with &quot;[[Cuff It]]&quot; and its [[Cuff It#Remix|remix]] inside the dome.&lt;ref name=&quot;:6&quot; /&gt; Making their way to the circular secondary stage, Beyoncé and her dancers then perform &quot;[[Energy (Beyoncé song)|Energy]]&quot;. The audience participates in a fan-made challenge in which they must go silent for a few seconds when Beyoncé sings the lyric &quot;look around, everybody on mute&quot;;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=alex-ocho |title=Beyoncé Crowns Atlanta as New Winner of 'Everybody on Mute' War During Renaissance Tour |url=https://www.complex.com/music/a/alex-ocho/beyonce-crowns-atlanta-as-new-winner-of-everybody-on-mute |access-date=2023-08-13 |website=Complex |language=en-us |archive-date=August 13, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230813162029/https://www.complex.com/music/a/alex-ocho/beyonce-crowns-atlanta-as-new-winner-of-everybody-on-mute |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; each stop competes for who stays the most silent.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-08-07 |title=Beyoncé Declared Washington DC As The 'Eerbody On Mute War Winner' |url=https://uproxx.com/music/beyonce-washington-dc-everybody-on-mute-war-winner/ |access-date=2023-08-13 |website=UPROXX |language=en-US |archive-date=August 13, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230813162030/https://uproxx.com/music/beyonce-washington-dc-everybody-on-mute-war-winner/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Mitchel |first=BriShon |date=August 10, 2023 |title=Everything You Need to Know About Beyoncé's 'Renaissance World Tour' Stop in Tampa |url=https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/local/hillsboroughcounty/beyonce-tampa-tickets-parking-concert-guide/67-f1e314fc-6416-4b62-a96d-52b51491e301 |access-date=2023-08-13 |website=[[WTSP]] |language=en-US |archive-date=November 15, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231115223706/https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/local/hillsboroughcounty/beyonce-tampa-tickets-parking-concert-guide/67-f1e314fc-6416-4b62-a96d-52b51491e301 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; A massive, inflatable disco horse prop is wheeled out of the dome and onto the stage in preparation for &quot;[[Break My Soul]]&quot;.,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Baster-Wright |first=Dusty |date=2023-05-11 |title=Beyoncé's Renaissance tour setlist in full 2023 |url=https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/entertainment/a43860658/beyonces-renaissance-tour-set-list-2023/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230511145649/https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/entertainment/a43860658/beyonces-renaissance-tour-set-list-2023/ |archive-date=2023-05-11 |access-date=2023-05-15 |website=[[Cosmopolitan (magazine)|Cosmopolitan]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; where Beyoncé and the dancers make their way around the perimeter of the B-Stage. [[File:Beyoncé - Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - 1st June 2023 (71 of 118) (52945301662).jpg|thumb|234x234px|Beyoncé on the silver war tank]] The next act, '''Opulence''', has an army theme.&lt;ref name=&quot;:6&quot; /&gt; This section begins with &quot;[[Formation (song)|Formation]]&quot;, which is followed by &quot;[[Diva (Beyoncé song)|Diva]]&quot;, making reference to rapper [[Lil Uzi Vert]]'s viral dance on TikTok, and &quot;[[Run the World (Girls)]]&quot; on the ramp of the B-stage.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Hanson |first=Sophie |date=2023-05-11 |title=Beyonce Renaissance Tour Set List: Break My Soul, Run The World, Crazy In Love |url=https://stylecaster.com/beyonce-renaissance-tour-set-list/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230511145625/https://stylecaster.com/beyonce-renaissance-tour-set-list/ |archive-date=2023-05-11 |access-date=2023-05-15 |website=[[SHE Media#STYLECASTER|StyleCaster]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; She then performs &quot;My Power&quot; and exits the stage, only to reappear on top of a silver war tank to perform &quot;[[Black Parade (song)|Black Parade]]&quot;. Remaining on the tank, she then performs &quot;[[Savage (Megan Thee Stallion song)#Beyoncé remix|Savage (Remix)]]&quot; and &quot;[[Partition (song)|Partition]]&quot;, after which the tank drives off stage, closing the section.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Vito |first=Jo |date=2023-05-10 |title=Beyoncé's &quot;Renaissance World Tour&quot;: Video + Setlist |url=https://consequence.net/2023/05/beyonce-renaissance-stockholm-video-setlist/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230510202618/https://consequence.net/2023/05/beyonce-renaissance-stockholm-video-setlist/ |archive-date=2023-05-10 |access-date=2023-05-15 |website=[[Consequence (publication)|Consequence]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Beginning with the May 26, 2023, Paris show, [[Blue Ivy]] began joining Beyoncé onstage to perform choreography to &quot;My Power&quot; and &quot;Black Parade&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;:9&quot; /&gt; Following an interlude opening the church-themed '''Anointed''' section,&lt;ref name=&quot;:6&quot; /&gt; Beyoncé emerges from the dome in all-white robe that is struck by [[ultraviolet]] light to reveal a colorful pattern evocative of [[stained glass]], which is then removed for a performance of &quot;Church Girl&quot;, &quot;[[Get Me Bodied]]&quot; and &quot;[[Before I Let Go#Beyoncé version|Before I Let Go]]&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Grace |first=Asia |date=2023-05-11 |title=Beyoncé's color-changing 'Renaissance' tour outfit revealed |url=https://nypost.com/2023/05/11/beyonces-color-changing-renaissance-tour-outfit-revealed/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230511214745/https://nypost.com/2023/05/11/beyonces-color-changing-renaissance-tour-outfit-revealed/ |archive-date=2023-05-11 |access-date=2023-05-15 |website=[[New York Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Backing vocalists and dancers appear on stage to accompany &quot;[[Rather Die Young]]&quot;. Beyoncé begins to perform &quot;[[Love on Top]]&quot;, singing the final two key changes a cappella alongside the audience, before counting into &quot;[[Crazy in Love]]&quot;, during which the dancers are dressed in white tank tops and denim jeans, recreating Beyoncé's outfit from the music video.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Gray |first=Jack |date=2023-05-13 |title=Beyoncé Renaissance world tour: What to expect from Queen Bey |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-65558426 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230513193731/https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-65558426 |archive-date=2023-05-13 |access-date=2023-05-15 |website=[[BBC]] News}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Beyoncé inside a clam shell, reminiscent of Botticelli’s The Birth of Venus - Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - 1st June 2023 (89 of 118) (52945896886) (cropped).jpg|left|thumb|235x235px|Beyoncé inside a [[clam]] shell performing &quot;Virgo's Groove&quot;.]] After her background vocalists, Pure Honey, perform [[Diana Ross]]' &quot;[[Love Hangover]]&quot; as an interlude, Beyoncé returns to perform an undersea-themed act. This section features an oversized disco ball prop suspended above the crowd. Beyoncé is revealed inside a [[clam]] shell, reminiscent of [[Sandro Botticelli|Botticelli]]’s ''[[The Birth of Venus]]'', in a bedazzled &quot;hands-on&quot; [[Loewe (fashion brand)|Loewe]] bodysuit. She performs &quot;Plastic off the Sofa&quot; and a mash-up of &quot;[[Virgo's Groove]]&quot; with &quot;[[Naughty Girl (Beyoncé song)|Naughty Girl]]&quot;, during which Beyoncé also includes snippets of a number of her R&amp;B songs, including &quot;[[Say My Name]]&quot; and &quot;[[Dance for You]]&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Knight |first=Kathryn |date=2023-05-10 |title=All The Songs On Beyoncé's 'Renaissance' Tour Set List |url=https://www.capitalfm.com/news/music/songs-beyonce-renaissance-tour-set-list/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230510233424/https://www.capitalfm.com/news/music/songs-beyonce-renaissance-tour-set-list/ |archive-date=2023-05-10 |access-date=2023-05-15 |website=[[Capital (radio network)|Capital FM]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; &quot;Move&quot; is performed on the B-stage with choreography along with her dancers. During &quot;[[Heated (Beyoncé song)|Heated]]&quot;, the robotic arms return to holding fans, as does Beyoncé, fanning herself off while standing in a circle of microphones. The performance is accompanied by pyrotechnic columns. In many performances, Beyoncé runs down the runway to the B-Stage while singing the outro to the song. She then exits the stage as Les Twins then perform a dance break to &quot;[[Already (song)|Already]]&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Velasco |first=Matthew |date=2023-05-12 |title=Beyonce's Renaissance World Tour Fashion Includes Custom McQueen and Archival Givenchy |url=https://www.wmagazine.com/culture/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-stockholm |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230512170321/https://www.wmagazine.com/culture/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-stockholm |archive-date=2023-05-12 |access-date=2023-05-15 |website=[[W (magazine)|W Magazine]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; On select dates, Beyoncé performed the '''Memories Run Through My Wires''' act, a special provocateur-themed section. It is composed of &quot;Thique&quot;, &quot;All Up in Your Mind&quot;, and &quot;[[Drunk in Love]]&quot;. The &quot;Thique&quot; performance is accompanied by a huge inflatable [[breasts]] prop and a dance performed along a set of horizontal metal railings, containing a &quot;[[Toxic (Britney Spears song)|Toxic]]&quot; sample as a shoutout to [[Britney Spears]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Bowenbank |first=Starr |date=2023-05-10 |title=Beyonce Sends Fans Into a Frenzy by Sampling Britney Spears' 'Toxic' at First Renaissance Tour Stop in Sweden |url=https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/beyonce-renaissance-tour-sweden-britney-spears-toxic-thique-1235326601/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230514055940/https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/beyonce-renaissance-tour-sweden-britney-spears-toxic-thique-1235326601/ |archive-date=2023-05-14 |access-date=2024-01-07 |magazine=Billboard |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; The &quot;All up in Your Mind&quot; performance features a chair dance and the &quot;Drunk in Love&quot; performance includes fireworks and seductive [[pole dancing]], and ends with Beyoncé being lifted above the B-stage on a motorized tower, reminiscent of her controversial, [[Beyoncé 2023 Dubai performance|viral performance in Dubai]] earlier on January 21.&lt;ref name=&quot;:9&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=&lt;!-- 5:24 PM EDT --&gt; August 15, 2023 |title=Here are the three songs Beyoncé added to the lineup on the last night of her Atlanta stop |url=https://www.11alive.com/article/entertainment/music/beyonce-set-list-last-night-atlanta-concert-renaissance-tour/85-ead02d3c-c21c-4c47-8349-c0289c8a8764 |access-date=2023-08-16 |website=11Alive.com |language=en-US |archive-date=November 15, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231115223707/https://www.11alive.com/article/entertainment/music/beyonce-set-list-last-night-atlanta-concert-renaissance-tour/85-ead02d3c-c21c-4c47-8349-c0289c8a8764 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; This act was performed in Stockholm (May 10), Atlanta (August 14), Inglewood (September 1, 2 and 4), Houston (September 23 and 24), New Orleans (September 27) and Kansas City (October 1).&lt;ref name=&quot;:28&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:25&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:27&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:29&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:30&quot; /&gt; The penultimate act parodies a news broadcast, and is titled '''Mind Control'''.&lt;ref name=&quot;:6&quot; /&gt; Beyoncé appears dressed in a [[haute couture]] bee-inspired costume with a desk simulating a fictional news station titled KNTY 4 NEWS to start the act with &quot;America Has a Problem&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Manibog |first=Rebekah |date=2023-05-11 |title=Beyoncé Has Kicked Off Her Renaissance World Tour And It's Iconic |url=https://www.pedestrian.tv/entertainment/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-2023-first-look/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230511203129/https://www.pedestrian.tv/entertainment/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-2023-first-look/ |archive-date=2023-05-11 |access-date=2023-05-15 |website=[[Pedestrian (company)|Pedestrian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Beyoncé then performs &quot;[[Pure/Honey]]&quot;, containing elements of &quot;[[Blow (Beyoncé song)|Blow]]&quot;, whilst holding a fish-eye selfie camera. After the performance, as she exits the stage, her dancers arrive to [[vogue (dance)|vogue]] in a ballroom battle to an extended outro of the song, featuring pre-recorded commentary from [[Kevin Jz Prodigy]], with various members of the troupe taking turns displaying dance moves as the others cheer them on. For each date (with some exceptions), Kevin would announce particular categories, each notably performed by a given member of Beyoncé's dance crew, namely Carlos Irizarry (Old Way), Aliya Janell (Shake That Ass), Aahkilah Cornelius (Sex Siren), Darius Hickman (Soft and Cunt Performance), Amari Marshall (Body), Jonte (Face + Structure), Nerita McFarlane (Runway), and Honey Balenciaga (Vogue Fem).&lt;ref name=&quot;:9&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://uproxx.com/music/beyonce-renaissance-tour-dancers-everything-to-know/|title=Beyoncé's 'Renaissance Tour' Dancers: Everything You Need To Know |access-date= December 10, 2023 |last=Lane |first=Lexi |date=May 19, 2023 |website=Uproxx |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230519185126/https://uproxx.com/music/beyonce-renaissance-tour-dancers-everything-to-know/|archive-date= May 19, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Beyoncé - Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - 1st June 2023 (108 of 118) (52945896041).jpg|thumb|239x239px|Beyoncé atop a crystal horse on the encore act performing &quot;Summer Renaissance&quot;.]] Beyoncé returns seated atop a shiny life-size horse mannequin wearing a sparkly silver dress to perform &quot;Summer Renaissance&quot; as the '''Encore'''.&lt;ref name=&quot;:6&quot; /&gt; The horse is lifted above the crowd and flies Beyoncé in a circle as a victory lap, while silver confetti is released into the stadium.&lt;ref name=&quot;:9&quot; /&gt; She then thanks the crowd and exits the stage as the screen is left with a photo of her mother Tina and her uncle Johnny, a major inspiration behind the Black, queer sounds of the ''Renaissance'' album.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Rindner |first=Grant |date=2023-05-11 |title=Here's What the Beyhive Is Saying About Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour Kickoff |url=https://www.gq.com/story/beyonce-renaissance-tour-first-show-stockholm-reactions |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230514051032/https://www.gq.com/story/beyonce-renaissance-tour-first-show-stockholm-reactions |archive-date=2023-05-14 |access-date=2023-05-15 |website=[[GQ]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Commercial performance == The Renaissance World Tour broke ticket sales records worldwide.&lt;ref name=&quot;Frankenberg&quot;&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Frankenberg |first=Eric |date=2023-06-29 |title=Beyoncé's Renaissance World Tour Earns $154 Million on European Leg |url=https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-earnings-european-leg/ |access-date=2023-08-21 |magazine=Billboard |language=en-US |archive-date=June 29, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230629192917/https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-earnings-european-leg/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:19&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Holland |first=Stephanie |date=2023-08-10 |title=Beyoncé's Record-Breaking Renaissance Tour Set to Top Taylor Swift's Eras |url=https://www.theroot.com/beyonce-s-record-breaking-renaissance-tour-set-to-top-t-1850724956 |access-date=2023-08-25 |website=[[The Root (magazine)|The Root]] |language= |archive-date=August 25, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230825081350/https://www.theroot.com/beyonce-s-record-breaking-renaissance-tour-set-to-top-t-1850724956 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Kaufman |first=Gil |date=2023-02-03 |title=As Beyonce Renaissance Tour Tickets Roll Out Senate Judiciary Committee Has Ominous Warning For Ticketmaster |url=https://www.billboard.com/music/rb-hip-hop/beyonce-renaissance-tour-tickets-senate-judiciary-committee-warning-ticketmaster-1235211896/ |access-date=2023-08-25 |magazine=Billboard |language=en-US |archive-date=August 25, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230825081356/https://www.billboard.com/music/rb-hip-hop/beyonce-renaissance-tour-tickets-senate-judiciary-committee-warning-ticketmaster-1235211896/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The tour may break the record for the [[List of highest-grossing concert tours|biggest tour]] in music history, according to ''[[Bloomberg News|Bloomberg]],''&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Shaw |first=Lucas |date=2023-04-02 |title=Will Taylor Swift or Beyoncé Have the First $1 Billion Tour? |language=en |work=[[Bloomberg News|Bloomberg.com]] |url=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-04-02/will-taylor-swift-or-beyonce-have-the-highest-grossing-tour-ever |url-status=live |access-date=2023-05-10 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230403013320/https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-04-02/will-taylor-swift-or-beyonce-have-the-highest-grossing-tour-ever |archive-date=April 3, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; and has already become both the highest-grossing tour by a female artist in history and the highest-grossing tour by a black artist in history.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Mata |first=William |date=2023-08-09 |title=Beyonce's Renaissance tour becomes highest grossing ever for a black artist |url=https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/beyonce-grossing-tours-sales-highest-record-black-artist-b1099687.html |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=Evening Standard |language=en |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092208/https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/beyonce-grossing-tours-sales-highest-record-black-artist-b1099687.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-08-31 |title=Beyoncé's 'Renaissance' tour breaks all-time record: Report |url=https://www.ktvu.com/news/beyonces-renaissance-tour-breaks-all-time-record-highest-grossing-tour-by-female-artist |access-date=2023-09-01 |website=KTVU FOX 2 |language=en-US |archive-date=September 1, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230901110634/https://www.ktvu.com/news/beyonces-renaissance-tour-breaks-all-time-record-highest-grossing-tour-by-female-artist |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; ''[[Forbes]]'' estimated that the tour could gross up to $2.4 billion,&lt;ref name=&quot;:932&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Empire |first=Kitty |date=2023-05-20 |title=Beyoncé review – a spangled supernova of joy |language=en-GB |work=The Guardian |url=https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/may/20/beyonce-renaissance-tour-principality-stadium-cardiff-review-a-spangled-supernova-of-joy |access-date=2023-05-22 |issn=0261-3077 |archive-date=May 22, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230522124826/https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/may/20/beyonce-renaissance-tour-principality-stadium-cardiff-review-a-spangled-supernova-of-joy |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Richards |first=Will |date=2023-05-18 |title=Beyoncé shares full list of credits for 'Renaissance' world tour |url=https://www.nme.com/news/music/beyonce-shares-full-list-of-credits-for-renaissance-world-tour-3444999 |access-date=2023-05-22 |website=NME |language=en-GB |archive-date=June 14, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230614173747/https://www.nme.com/news/music/beyonce-shares-full-list-of-credits-for-renaissance-world-tour-3444999 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; while ''[[Rolling Stone]]'' described the tour as &quot;one of the most in-demand concerts in recent memory&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Millman |first=Ethan |date=2023-02-02 |title=Beyoncé Tickets Aren't on Sale Yet. Scalpers Are Trying to Sell Them for Thousands |url=https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/beyonce-tickets-scalpers-speculative-tickets-ticketmaster-stubhub-1234672209/ |url-status=live |magazine=[[Rolling Stone]] |language=en-US |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230203131333/https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/beyonce-tickets-scalpers-speculative-tickets-ticketmaster-stubhub-1234672209/ |archive-date=February 3, 2023 |access-date=2023-02-03}}&lt;/ref&gt; ''[[The Root (magazine)|The Root]]'' deemed the tour's demand as &quot;wild&quot; and &quot;unprecedented&quot; for female artists and black artists.&lt;ref name=&quot;:19&quot; /&gt; The tour topped the May Boxscore report with a &quot;massive&quot; gross of $154 million, with Beyoncé being the first woman to achieve this in four years.&lt;ref name=&quot;Frankenberg&quot; /&gt; According to ''Billboard'' Boxscore, the Renaissance World Tour earned $127.6 million over 11 shows between July 8–30, claiming the largest one-month sum for any artist since the Boxscore archives began in the mid-1980s.&lt;ref name=&quot;:11&quot;&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Frankenberg |first=Eric |date=August 24, 2023 |title=Beyoncé Posts Biggest One-Month Gross in Boxscore History With Renaissance World Tour |url=https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-earnings-july-sets-record/ |access-date=August 25, 2023 |magazine=[[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]] |language=en-US |archive-date=August 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20230824183340/https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-earnings-july-sets-record/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In August 2023, the Renaissance World Tour grossed $179.3 million, making it the highest one-month gross for tours, replacing its previous record.&lt;ref name=&quot;:18&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Davis |first=Darreonna |date=September 28, 2023 |title=Beyoncé's Renaissance World Tour Shatters Record For Highest-Grossing Month, Report Says |url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/darreonnadavis/2023/09/28/beyoncs-renaissance-world-tour-shatters-record-for-highest-grossing-month-report-says/ |access-date=October 3, 2023 |website=[[Forbes]] |archive-date=October 2, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231002130755/https://www.forbes.com/sites/darreonnadavis/2023/09/28/beyoncs-renaissance-world-tour-shatters-record-for-highest-grossing-month-report-says/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The tour dominated the Year-End ''Billboard'' Boxscore Top Tours chart, claiming the highest position. generating an astounding $570.5M in revenue and attracting an impressive audience of 2.7M people across 55 shows;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |date=2023-11-30 |title=2023 Year-End Boxscore Charts |url=https://www.billboard.com/2023-year-end-boxscore-charts/ |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231202011818/https://www.billboard.com/2023-year-end-boxscore-charts/?amp |archive-date=2023-12-02 |access-date=2023-12-03 |magazine=Billboard |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; it also become the [[List of highest-grossing concert tours|seventh-highest-grossing concert tour of all time]] and the [[List of highest-grossing concert tours by women|highest-grossing concert tour by a women]] since the Boxscore archives, breaking the previous record of Madonna's [[Sticky &amp; Sweet Tour]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Frankenberg |first=Eric |date=2023-10-13 |title=Billboard Boxscore Top 10 Tours of All Time: Beyoncé Breaks Ground |url=https://www.billboard.com/lists/billboard-boxscore-top-10-tours-all-time-elton-john-harry-styles/ |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231014032424/https://www.billboard.com/lists/billboard-boxscore-top-10-tours-all-time-elton-john-harry-styles/ |archive-date=2023-10-14 |access-date=2024-01-16 |magazine=Billboard |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:17&quot;&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Frankenberg |first=Eric |date=September 28, 2023 |title=Beyoncé Re-Sets Monthly Boxscore Record With $179 Million in August |url=https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-monthly-touring-record-boxscore/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://archive.today/20230928163421/https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-monthly-touring-record-boxscore/ |archive-date=September 28, 2023 |access-date=October 2, 2023 |magazine=Billboard}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Faguy |first=Ana |date=October 3, 2023 |title=Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour Brings In Half-Billion Dollars—But These Singers Made Even More |url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2023/10/03/beyoncs-renaissance-tour-brings-in-half-billion-dollars-but-these-singers-made-even-more/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231003214125/https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2023/10/03/beyoncs-renaissance-tour-brings-in-half-billion-dollars-but-these-singers-made-even-more/ |archive-date=October 3, 2023 |access-date=October 3, 2023 |website=[[Forbes]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; As of August 31, 2023, [[Live Nation Entertainment]] reported that the Renaissance World Tour has grossed $579 million, becoming Beyoncé's highest-grossing tour, surpassing the previous [[The Formation World Tour]], the highest-grossing tour for both an R&amp;B artist and a black female artist.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Houghton |first=Cillea |date=August 9, 2023 |title=Beyonce's Renaissance World Tour Is Highest Grossing of Any R&amp;B Artist |url=https://americansongwriter.com/beyonces-renaissance-world-tour-is-highest-grossing-of-any-rb-artist/ |access-date=October 3, 2023 |website=[[American Songwriter]] |archive-date=October 20, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231020104319/https://americansongwriter.com/beyonces-renaissance-world-tour-is-highest-grossing-of-any-rb-artist/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In addition, the Renaissance World Tour was Live Nation's top-grossing tour of 2023 and a major driver of its record revenue.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Lind |first=J.R. |date=February 23, 2024 |title=Live Nation Reports Record $22.7B Revenue In 2023 |url=https://news.pollstar.com/2024/02/22/live-nation-reports-record-22-7b-revenue-in-2023/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240223035400/https://news.pollstar.com/2024/02/22/live-nation-reports-record-22-7b-revenue-in-2023/ |archive-date=2024-02-23 |access-date=February 23, 2024 |website=Pollstar |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Presale === The first pre-sale in the UK on February 2, which was exclusive for [[O2 (UK)|O2]] customers, was met with &quot;overwhelming&quot; demand and caused the O2 Priority website to crash.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Sherlock |first=Gemma |date=2023-02-02 |title=Recap: Beyoncé in Cardiff pre-sale ticket updates for Renaissance tour |url=https://www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-on/music-nightlife-news/live-beyonc-cardiff-2023-tour-26136747 |access-date=2023-02-02 |website=[[Media Wales|Wales Online]] |language=en |archive-date=February 2, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230202130853/https://www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-on/music-nightlife-news/live-beyonc-cardiff-2023-tour-26136747 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Over 200,000 people were trying to purchase tickets for one of the London dates, of which fewer than 7,000 were available.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Chantler-Hicks |first=Lydia |date=2023-02-02 |title=Huge rush for Beyonce Renaissance tickets crashes O2 Priority |url=https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/beyonce-renaissance-tickets-book-o2-priority-ticketmaster-crashing-b1057418.html |access-date=2023-02-02 |website=[[Evening Standard]] |language=en |archive-date=February 2, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230202172902/https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/beyonce-renaissance-tickets-book-o2-priority-ticketmaster-crashing-b1057418.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |date=2023-02-02 |title=Beyoncé ticket rush begins as pre-sale opens for UK tour dates |language=en-GB |work=[[BBC]] News |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-64496382 |access-date=2023-02-02 |archive-date=February 2, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230202172902/https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-64496382 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; After fans voiced their upset and caused &quot;O2 Priority&quot; to trend on Twitter, O2 released an apology acknowledging the &quot;huge demand&quot; and reassuring fans that they are working to resolve the issue.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; A pre-sale on February 3, which was organized by Live Nation, saw over 3 million people trying to get tickets for dates in the UK, France, Sweden and Poland, which caused Ticketmaster to crash.&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=David |first=Tiago |title=Começou a corrida aos bilhetes para os concertos de Beyoncé: milhões de fãs nas filas de espera durante a pré-venda |trans-title=The running for tickets to Beyoncé's concerts has just begun: millions of fans in queue during presale |url=https://mag.sapo.pt/musica/artigos/comecou-a-corrida-aos-bilhetes-para-os-concertos-de-beyonce-mais-de-tres-milhoes-de-fas-nas-filas-de-espera-durante-a-pre-venda |date=2023-02-03 |access-date=2023-02-13 |website=SAPO Mag |language=pt |archive-date=February 3, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230203131340/https://mag.sapo.pt/musica/artigos/comecou-a-corrida-aos-bilhetes-para-os-concertos-de-beyonce-mais-de-tres-milhoes-de-fas-nas-filas-de-espera-durante-a-pre-venda |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Hill |first=Rose |date=2023-02-03 |title=Beyonce presale crashes again as fans fume about failing to get tickets |url=https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/breaking-beyonce-presale-crashes-again-29122563 |access-date=2023-02-03 |website=[[Daily Mirror|Mirror]] |language=en |archive-date=February 3, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230203105605/https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/breaking-beyonce-presale-crashes-again-29122563 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In the first few minutes of the second UK pre-sale, over 400,000 people joined the queue to one of the London shows, which then extended to over 800,000 people.&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Edmonds |first=Lizzie |date=2023-02-03 |title=Beyonce Renaissance tour: More than 400,000 in queue for pre-sale tickets |url=https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/beyonce-renaissance-tour-pre-sale-tickets-queue-b1057718.html |access-date=2023-02-03 |website=Evening Standard |language=en |archive-date=February 3, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230203132835/https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/beyonce-renaissance-tour-pre-sale-tickets-queue-b1057718.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; More than 600,000 people were in the queue for tickets to the Edinburgh show.&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt; In France, over 260,000 people were trying to purchase tickets for the Paris show.&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt; === General sale === [[File:Beyoncé - Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - 1st June 2023 (96 of 118) (52946361213).jpg|thumb|280x280px|Beyoncé performing &quot;Move&quot; during her five-day residency at Tottenham Hotspur Stadium.]] Millions of people were trying to get tickets upon general sale in the UK, causing the Ticketmaster site to crash due to the &quot;incredible&quot; demand.&lt;ref name=&quot;:3&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Sherlock |first=Gemma |date=February 7, 2023 |title=LIVE: Beyoncé general sale ticket updates for huge Cardiff 2023 show |url=https://www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-on/music-nightlife-news/live-beyonc-general-sale-ticket-26169464 |access-date=February 7, 2023 |website=[[Media Wales|Wales Online]] |language=en |archive-date=February 7, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230207120801/https://www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-on/music-nightlife-news/live-beyonc-general-sale-ticket-26169464 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;bbcyoungs&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Youngs |first=Ian |date=February 6, 2023 |title=Beyoncé tickets: High demand as UK concerts go on general sale |language=en-GB |work=[[BBC]] News |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-64533856 |access-date=May 14, 2023 |archive-date=February 7, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230207120751/https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-64533856 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; After more than 370,000 people queued for each of the two London dates, a third date was added. The third London date saw half a million people queuing for tickets, leading to a fourth date being added. The fourth date saw another half a million people joining the queue, leading to a fifth date being added.&lt;ref name=&quot;:4&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Flanders |first=Narin |date=February 7, 2023 |title=Beyoncé LIVE: London ticket launch updates for Tottenham Hotspur Stadium gigs |url=https://www.mylondon.news/whats-on/music-nightlife-news/beyonc-live-london-ticket-launch-26171560 |access-date=February 7, 2023 |website=[[MyLondon]] |language=en |archive-date=February 7, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230207120756/https://www.mylondon.news/whats-on/music-nightlife-news/beyonc-live-london-ticket-launch-26171560 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:3&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Renaissance tour tickets: Beyonce adds 'fifth and final' London date |last=Edmonds |first=Lizzie |url=https://uk.news.yahoo.com/beyonce-renaissance-tour-tickets-370-121518665.html |date=February 8, 2023 |access-date=February 12, 2023 |website=[[Yahoo! News]] UK |language=en-GB |archive-date=February 7, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230207125912/https://uk.news.yahoo.com/beyonce-renaissance-tour-tickets-370-121518665.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Beyoncé's shows in Paris and Marseille sold out within minutes, with hundreds of thousands of fans trying to buy tickets and the [[Stade de France]] site crashing.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Valais |first=Lucie |date=February 7, 2023 |title=Beyoncé en concert à Paris et Marseille : où trouver un billet ? |trans-title=Beyoncé in concert in Paris and Marseille: where to find a ticket? |url=https://www.linternaute.com/musique/biographie/2639357-beyonce-en-concert-a-paris-et-marseille-ou-trouver-un-billet/ |access-date=February 7, 2023 |website=[[L'Internaute]] |language=fr |archive-date=February 7, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230207133823/https://www.linternaute.com/musique/biographie/2639357-beyonce-en-concert-a-paris-et-marseille-ou-trouver-un-billet/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:5&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Bureau |first=Éric |date=February 7, 2023 |title=Concerts de Beyoncé : &quot; La billetterie du Stade de France a crashé &quot; |trans-title=Beyoncé concerts: &quot;Stade de France box office has crashed&quot; |url=https://www.leparisien.fr/culture-loisirs/musique/concerts-de-beyonce-la-billetterie-du-stade-de-france-a-crashe-07-02-2023-66URHLICVZCK3LQW5CQ24V5MWQ.php |access-date=February 7, 2023 |website=[[Le Parisien]] |language=fr-FR |archive-date=February 7, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230207194422/https://www.leparisien.fr/culture-loisirs/musique/concerts-de-beyonce-la-billetterie-du-stade-de-france-a-crashe-07-02-2023-66URHLICVZCK3LQW5CQ24V5MWQ.php |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Martin d'Argenlieu of [[Stade Vélodrome]] said that they had not seen such demand for a decade.&lt;ref name=&quot;:5&quot; /&gt; Additional shows were added in Amsterdam,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Tickets concerten Beyoncé in Amsterdam 'zo goed als' uitverkocht |trans-title=Tickets for Beyoncé concerts in Amsterdam 'almost' sold out |url=https://www.bndestem.nl/show/tickets-concerten-beyonce-in-amsterdam-zo-goed-als-uitverkocht~a094eb59/ |language=Dutch |date=February 7, 2023 |access-date=February 7, 2023 |website=[[BN DeStem]] |archive-date=February 7, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230207134459/https://www.bndestem.nl/show/tickets-concerten-beyonce-in-amsterdam-zo-goed-als-uitverkocht~a094eb59/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Stockholm,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=February 7, 2023 |title=Tickets for Beyoncé's 1st concert of world tour sell out |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/beyonce-ap-renaissance-stockholm-live-nation-b2277538.html |access-date=February 7, 2023 |website=[[The Independent]] |language=en |archive-date=February 7, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230207194421/https://www.independent.co.uk/news/beyonce-ap-renaissance-stockholm-live-nation-b2277538.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; and Warsaw&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Viswanath |first=Jake |title=Twitter Is Having A Meltdown Over Buying Beyoncé Renaissance Tour Tickets |url=https://www.bustle.com/entertainment/beyonce-renaissance-tour-tickets-memes-tweets-reactions |date=February 7, 2023 |access-date=February 7, 2023 |website=[[Bustle (magazine)|Bustle]] |language=en |archive-date=February 7, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230207194424/https://www.bustle.com/entertainment/beyonce-renaissance-tour-tickets-memes-tweets-reactions |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; due to high demand for the first shows announced in those cities. ''[[Financial Times]]'' reported that economists at [[Danske Bank]] believe that Beyoncé's decision to start her world tour in Stockholm led to a surge in local hotel prices that resulted in inflation in Sweden exceeding expectations, further calling it &quot;astonishing for a single event&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Milne |first1=Richard |title=Beyoncé blamed for stubbornly high Swedish inflation |url=https://www.ft.com/content/abc431c4-426d-4a9f-9674-f437ed504eb7 |website=[[Financial Times]] |date=June 14, 2023 |access-date=14 June 2023 |archive-date=June 14, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230614170408/http://www.ft.com/content/abc431c4-426d-4a9f-9674-f437ed504eb7 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; According to Ticketmaster, the ticket demand exceeded the number of available tickets by more than 800% in Toronto, Chicago, East Rutherford, Landover, Atlanta, Inglewood, and Houston, to all of which additional shows were added consequently. [[Live Nation Entertainment|Live Nation]] said that, despite the newly added dates, the majority of fans will not be able to purchase tickets: &quot;Demand drastically exceeds supply&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine |last=Aniftos |first=Rania |date=February 2, 2023 |title=Beyoncé Reveals Extension to Renaissance World Tour Due to Fan Demand |url=https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-new-dates-1235211384/ |url-status=live |magazine=Billboard |location=United States |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230202205955/https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-new-dates-1235211384/ |archive-date=February 2, 2023 |access-date=February 2, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Venue records === {| class=&quot;wikitable sortable plainrowheaders&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |+Achievements of the Renaissance World Tour |- ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:14em;&quot; |Dates (2023) ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:18em;&quot; |Venue ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:10em;&quot; |Country ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:38em;&quot; |Description ! scope=&quot;col&quot; class=&quot;unsortable&quot; |{{Abbr|Ref.|References}} |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |May 10 and 11 | [[Friends Arena]] | Sweden | style=&quot;text-align:left;&quot; |First female and black act to sell out two shows on a single tour. | &lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2023-05-11/beyonce-renaissance-tour-starts-sweden-costumes-set-list-injury-rumors |title=Beyoncé launches Renaissance tour with 37-song set list, dazzling costumes |last=Saad |first=Nardine |work=[[Los Angeles Times]] |date=May 11, 2023 |access-date=May 14, 2023 |archive-date=May 13, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230513112132/https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2023-05-11/beyonce-renaissance-tour-starts-sweden-costumes-set-list-injury-rumors |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |May 14 | [[King Baudouin Stadium]] | Belgium | style=&quot;text-align:left;&quot; |Highest attended concert of the 21st century for a female act in the stadium's history | &lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.latestly.com/socially/entertainment/hollywood/beyonce-records-the-largest-audience-gathered-this-century-for-a-female-artist-at-belgiums-king-baudouin-stadium-5129069.html#:~:text=Singer%20Beyonc%C3%A9%20created%20a%20record,Beyonc%C3%A9%20could've%20done%20it.|title=Beyoncé Records the Largest Audience Gathered This Century for a Female Artist at Belgium's King Baudouin Stadium|date=May 15, 2023|access-date=May 15, 2023|work=Latestly|archive-date=May 15, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230515174335/https://www.latestly.com/socially/entertainment/hollywood/beyonce-records-the-largest-audience-gathered-this-century-for-a-female-artist-at-belgiums-king-baudouin-stadium-5129069.html#:~:text=Singer%20Beyonc%C3%A9%20created%20a%20record,Beyonc%C3%A9%20could've%20done%20it.|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |May 17 | [[Millennium Stadium|Principality Stadium]] | Wales | style=&quot;text-align:left;&quot; |52,756 people attended the sold out concert. |&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Beyoncé Renaissance World Tour |url=https://www.principalitystadium.wales/event/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230201162811/https://www.principalitystadium.wales/event/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour/ |archive-date=1 February 2023 |access-date= |website=www.principalitystadium.wales}}&lt;/ref&gt; |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |May 20 | [[BT Murrayfield Stadium]] | Scotland | style=&quot;text-align:left;&quot; |Highest attended concert by a female solo act in stadium's history | &lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/whats-on/arts-and-entertainment/beyonce-edinburgh-record-number-of-fans-pack-bt-murrayfield-stadium-to-see-music-sensations-renaissance-gig-4151311 |title=Beyoncé Edinburgh: Record number of fans pack BT Murrayfield stadium to see music sensation's Renaissance gig |last=Swanson |first=Ian |work=[[Edinburgh Evening News]] |date=May 21, 2023 |access-date=June 25, 2023 |archive-date=May 28, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230528072959/https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/whats-on/arts-and-entertainment/beyonce-edinburgh-record-number-of-fans-pack-bt-murrayfield-stadium-to-see-music-sensations-renaissance-gig-4151311 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |May 26 | [[Stade de France]] | France | style=&quot;text-align: left;&quot; |Most career shows by a solo act (six concerts throughout her career). | &lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/05/27/beyonce-sets-paris-stade-de-france-ablaze_6028177_7.html |title=Beyoncé sets Paris' Stade de France ablaze |last=Binet |first=Stéphanie |work=[[Le Monde]] |date=May 27, 2023 |access-date=June 25, 2023 |archive-date=June 23, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230623002234/https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/05/27/beyonce-sets-paris-stade-de-france-ablaze_6028177_7.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; |- ! rowspan=&quot;3&quot; scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |May 29–June 4 | rowspan=&quot;3&quot; |[[Tottenham Hotspur Stadium]] | rowspan=&quot;3&quot; |England | style=&quot;text-align: left;&quot; |First act to sell out five shows on a single tour. | &lt;ref name=&quot;bbcyoungs&quot;/&gt; |- | style=&quot;text-align: left;&quot; |Highest-grossing boxscore by a black or American act. | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |&lt;ref name=&quot;Frankenberg&quot; /&gt; |- | style=&quot;text-align: left;&quot; |Highest-grossing boxscore report in the stadium's history. |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |June 8 |[[Estadi Olímpic Lluís Companys]] |Spain | style=&quot;text-align: left;&quot; |Highest attended concert by a female act in the stadium's history. |&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Robertson |first=Pleshette |date=2023-06-12 |title=Beyonce Reportedly Makes History as 'Renaissance' Show in Barcelona Becomes Spain's Biggest Concert By a Female Artist EV |url=https://www.sacculturalhub.com/entertainment/articles/beyonce-reportedly-makes-history-as-renaissance-show-in-barcelona-becomes-spains-biggest-concert-by-a-female-artist-ev/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230923235614/https://www.sacculturalhub.com/entertainment/articles/beyonce-reportedly-makes-history-as-renaissance-show-in-barcelona-becomes-spains-biggest-concert-by-a-female-artist-ev/#:~:text=Last%20night%20%28June%208%29%20saw,a%20colossal%20audience%20of%2053%2C000. |archive-date=September 23, 2023 |access-date=2024-06-04 |website=Sac Cultural Hub |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |June 11 | [[Stade Vélodrome|Orange Vélodrome]] | France | rowspan=&quot;8&quot; style=&quot;text-align:left;&quot; |Highest-grossing boxscore report in the stadium's history. | rowspan=&quot;8&quot; |&lt;ref name=&quot;Frankenberg&quot; /&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:11&quot; /&gt; |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |June 17 and 18 | [[Johan Cruyff Arena]] | Netherlands |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |June 27 and 28 | [[Stadion Narodowy|PGE Narodowy]] | Poland |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |July 15 | [[Nissan Stadium]] | rowspan=&quot;9&quot; |United States |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |July 17 | [[L&amp;N Federal Credit Union Stadium]] |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |July 26 | [[Ford Field]] |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |July 29 and 30 | [[MetLife Stadium]] |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |August 5 and 6 | [[FedExField]] |- ! rowspan=&quot;2&quot; scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |August 9 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |[[Bank of America Stadium]] | style=&quot;text-align:left;&quot; |Highest-grossing boxscore report in the stadium's history. | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |&lt;ref name=&quot;:20&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Janes |first=Théoden |date=August 10, 2023 |title=Review: On her way to making history here, Beyoncé fills Bank of America Stadium with love |url=https://www.charlotteobserver.com/entertainment/music-news-reviews/article277890488.html#storylink=cpy |access-date=August 23, 2023 |website=[[The Charlotte Observer]] |archive-date=November 15, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231115223710/https://www.charlotteobserver.com/entertainment/music-news-reviews/article277890488.html#storylink=cpy |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; |- | style=&quot;text-align:left;&quot; |First female and black act to headline a concert. |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |August 11–14 | [[Mercedes-Benz Stadium]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;text-align:left;&quot; |Highest-grossing boxscore report in the stadium's history. | &lt;ref name=&quot;:11&quot; /&gt; |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |September 1–2, 4 |[[SoFi Stadium]] |&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Frankenberg |first=Eric |date=2023-10-13 |title=Here's How Beyoncé's $580M Renaissance World Tour Stacks Up in the Billboard Boxscore |url=https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-earnings-billboard-boxscore-ranking/ |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240412212552/https://www.billboard.com/pro/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-earnings-billboard-boxscore-ranking/ |archive-date=2024-04-12 |access-date=2024-04-19 |magazine=Billboard |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; |} == Critical reception == [[File:Beyoncé - Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - 1st June 2023 (47 of 118) (52946286530) (cropped).jpg|thumb|253x253px|Beyoncé was praised for her stage presence and vocal performance.]] The tour received rave reviews from critics, who praised the spectacle of the show.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Chris |first=Richards |date=July 13, 2023 |title=Beyoncé is back to show us what stars are made of |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/music/2023/07/13/beyonce-renaissance-tour-review/ |access-date=October 17, 2023 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]] |archive-date=July 13, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230713192333/https://www.washingtonpost.com/music/2023/07/13/beyonce-renaissance-tour-review/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=McNeal |first=Bria |date=August 4, 2023 |title=Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour Is Her Greatest Achievement |url=https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/music/a44715880/beyonce-renaissance-tour-review/ |access-date=October 17, 2023 |website=[[Esquire (magazine)|Esquire]] |language=en |archive-date=September 5, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230905220717/https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/music/a44715880/beyonce-renaissance-tour-review/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Amorosi |first=A. D. |date=July 13, 2023 |title=Beyoncé Regally Resets Her Renaissance World Tour With a U.S. Premiere in Philadelphia: Concert Review |url=https://variety.com/2023/music/concert-reviews/beyonce-tour-us-opening-concert-philadelphia-review-1235669545/ |access-date=October 17, 2023 |website=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]] |archive-date=October 18, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231018050047/https://variety.com/2023/music/concert-reviews/beyonce-tour-us-opening-concert-philadelphia-review-1235669545/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; During the European tour length, in a five-star review for ''[[The Guardian]]'', Malcolm Jack declared the tour &quot;the greatest pop show on Earth&quot;, pushing &quot;21st-century live entertainment another lavish leap forward&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;:7&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Jack |first=Malcolm |date=May 11, 2023 |title=Beyoncé: Renaissance World Tour review – a dizzying three-hour spectacular |language=en-GB |work=The Guardian |url=https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/may/11/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-review-a-dizzying-three-hour-spectacular |access-date=May 11, 2023 |issn=0261-3077 |archive-date=May 11, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230511041941/https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/may/11/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-review-a-dizzying-three-hour-spectacular |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In another five-star review, ''[[The Scotsman]]''&lt;nowiki/&gt;'s David Pollock described it as &quot;the most essential stadium concert tour of the 21st century so far&quot; and a game-changer for the music industry.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-05-22 |title=Music review: Beyoncé, Murrayfield, Edinburgh |url=https://www.scotsman.com/whats-on/arts-and-entertainment/music-review-beyonce-murrayfield-edinburgh-4151612 |access-date=2023-05-22 |last=Pollock |first=David |website=[[The Scotsman]] |language=en |archive-date=May 22, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230522165446/https://www.scotsman.com/whats-on/arts-and-entertainment/music-review-beyonce-murrayfield-edinburgh-4151612 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Neil McCormick, chief music critic for [[The Daily Telegraph|''The Telegraph'']], also gave the show 5 out of 5 stars, remarking that &quot;We've seen plenty of multimedia rock extravaganzas and state of the art pop spectaculars, but this was something else: a sci-fi stadium-scale superclub, the greatest disco in the known universe&quot; while also praising Beyoncé's &quot;absurdly powerhouse singing&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=McCormick |first=Neil |date=2023-05-18 |title=Beyoncé Renaissance World Tour, Cardiff Principality Stadium, review: She came, she sang, she conquered |language=en-GB |work=The Telegraph |url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/what-to-listen-to/beyonce-renaissance-tour-cardiff-principality-review/ |access-date=2023-05-18 |issn=0307-1235 |archive-date=May 17, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230517235910/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/what-to-listen-to/beyonce-renaissance-tour-cardiff-principality-review/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Kitty Empire]] declared the tour a &quot;masterclass&quot;, describing it as a &quot;banging, progressive, LGBTQ+-embracing, Afrofuturist extravaganza&quot; that encourages concertgoers to feel joyous and liberated.&lt;ref name=&quot;:93&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |author=[[Kitty Empire|Empire, Kitty]] |date=2023-05-20 |title=Beyoncé review – a spangled supernova of joy |language=en-GB |work=The Guardian |url=https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/may/20/beyonce-renaissance-tour-principality-stadium-cardiff-review-a-spangled-supernova-of-joy |access-date=2023-05-22 |issn=0261-3077 |archive-date=May 22, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230522124826/https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/may/20/beyonce-renaissance-tour-principality-stadium-cardiff-review-a-spangled-supernova-of-joy |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; ''[[Rolling Stone]]''&lt;nowiki/&gt;'s Brittany Spanos described it as a &quot;once-in-a-lifetime show&quot;, praising Beyoncé's vocal performance and crowd interaction.&lt;ref name=&quot;rssynopsis&quot;/&gt; In a review for the ''[[Evening Standard]]'', Emma Loffhagen wrote that the tour pushes &quot;the boundaries of 21st-century performance technology&quot;, with innovations including a UV-sensitive color-changing gown, a flying sequined horse and robotic arms.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Loffhagen |first=Emma |date=2023-05-11 |title=Beyoncé Renaissance World Tour: All the songs and best moments from opening night |url=https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/music/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-songs-set-list-reactions-stockholm-b1080295.html |access-date=2023-05-12 |website=Evening Standard |language=en |archive-date=May 12, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230512175946/https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/music/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-songs-set-list-reactions-stockholm-b1080295.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Describing it as &quot;one of the most incredible live performances in recent memory&quot;, ''[[Refinery29]]''&lt;nowiki/&gt;'s Alexis Jackson praised the tour's &quot;visually stunning&quot; and &quot;elaborate&quot; stage design.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Jackson |first=Alexis |title=I Went To Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour &amp; Here's Everything You Need To Know |url=https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2023/05/11389401/beyonce-renaissance-tour-what-to-expect |access-date=2023-05-12 |website=[[Refinery29]] |language=en |archive-date=May 12, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230512175946/https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2023/05/11389401/beyonce-renaissance-tour-what-to-expect |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Following the tour's first North American stop, in Toronto, ''[[The New York Times]]'' labeled the show a &quot;Critic's Pick&quot;, with Lindsay Zoladz highlighting &quot;Beyoncé's endurance as a world-class performer&quot;, noting that she &quot;is the rare major pop star who prizes live vocal prowess&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Zoladz|first=Lindsay|title=On Her Renaissance Tour, the World Is Beyoncé's Ball|date=July 9, 2023|website=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/09/arts/music/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-review.html?smid=tw-nytimes&amp;smtyp=cur|access-date=July 10, 2023|archive-date=July 10, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230710160037/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/09/arts/music/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-review.html?smid=tw-nytimes&amp;smtyp=cur|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Julianne Escobedo Shepherd of [[Pitchfork (website)|''Pitchfork'']] defined the tour &quot;the most ambitious&quot; of Beyoncé's career&quot; as &quot;a unique representation of dance music history and Black art that imagines a more inclusive pop future&quot;, while &quot;the Renaissance tour's most important act was bringing Beyoncé's fans together in massive numbers, creating a space in which joy can build and attendees can experience sweet release. That's what dance music, at its beating heart, is about.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Julianne |first=Escobedo Shepherd |date=September 26, 2023 |title=Regarding Beyoncé, Mother of the House of Renaissance |url=https://pitchfork.com/features/article/beyonce-renaissance-tour-review/ |access-date=October 17, 2023 |website=[[Pitchfork (website)|Pitchfork]] |archive-date=October 18, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231018050048/https://pitchfork.com/features/article/beyonce-renaissance-tour-review/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Vogue (magazine)|''Vogue'']] writer André-Naquian Wheeler stated that Beyoncé &quot;has upended the typical stadium show model and turned it into an ever-changing format&quot;, taking it &quot;to unprecedented heights&quot;. Wheeler also analyzes the look of the show as an expression of &quot;''Renaissance''&lt;nowiki/&gt;'s ballroom-inspired sonic and visual aesthetic&quot;, a way for the singer to &quot;use fashion as a medium to silently signal a connection and appreciation towards a culture or community&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;:10&quot; /&gt; == Accolades == {| class=&quot;wikitable sortable plainrowheaders&quot; ! scope=&quot;col&quot; |Year ! scope=&quot;col&quot; |Organization ! scope=&quot;col&quot; |Award ! scope=&quot;col&quot; |Recipient(s) ! scope=&quot;col&quot; |Result ! scope=&quot;col&quot; class=&quot;unsortable&quot; |{{Abbr|Ref.|Reference(s)}} |- ! rowspan=&quot;2&quot; scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |2023 | scope=&quot;row&quot; |[[Billboard Music Awards|''Billboard'' Music Awards]] | Top R&amp;B Touring Artist | Beyoncé | {{Won}} | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Atkinson |first=Katie |date=November 20, 2023 |title=Billboard Music Awards 2023 Winners: Full List |url=https://www.billboard.com/music/awards/2023-billboard-music-awards-bbmas-winners-list-1235491435/ |access-date=November 26, 2023 |magazine=Billboard |language=en-US |archive-date=November 20, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231120054950/https://www.billboard.com/music/awards/2023-billboard-music-awards-bbmas-winners-list-1235491435/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; |- | scope=&quot;row&quot; |[[MTV Video Music Awards]] | Show of the Summer | rowspan=&quot;6&quot;|Renaissance World Tour | {{Nominated}} | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |&lt;ref name=VMAs&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Stenzel |first=Wesley |date=September 13, 2023 |title=2023 VMAs winners: See the full list |url=https://ew.com/mtv-video-music-awards/2023-vmas-winners-see-the-full-list/ |access-date=September 13, 2023 |magazine=Entertainment Weekly |archive-date=September 13, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230913022515/https://ew.com/mtv-video-music-awards/2023-vmas-winners-see-the-full-list/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; |- ! rowspan=&quot;8&quot; scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |2024 | scope=&quot;row&quot; |[[iHeartRadio Music Awards]] | Favorite Tour Style | {{nom}} | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Fields |first=Taylor |date=January 18, 2024 |title=2024 iHeartRadio Music Awards Nominees Revealed |url=https://www.iheart.com/content/2024-01-17-2024-iheartradio-music-awards-nominees-revealed/ |access-date=January 18, 2024 |website=[[iHeartRadio]] |archive-date=January 18, 2024 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240118135752/https://www.iheart.com/content/2024-01-17-2024-iheartradio-music-awards-nominees-revealed/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; |- | scope=&quot;row&quot; |[[People's Choice Awards]] | The Concert Tour of the Year | {{nom}} | style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Malec |first=Brett |date=January 11, 2024 |title=2024 People's Choice Awards: Complete List of Nominees |url=https://www.eonline.com/news/1392489/2024-peoples-choice-awards-complete-list-of-nominees |access-date=January 14, 2024 |website=[[E! Online]] |archive-date=January 11, 2024 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240111144930/https://www.eonline.com/news/1392489/2024-peoples-choice-awards-complete-list-of-nominees |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; |- | rowspan=&quot;5&quot; scope=&quot;row&quot; |[[Pollstar|''Pollstar'' Awards]] | Major Tour of the Year | {{Nominated}} | rowspan=&quot;5&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |&lt;ref name=Pollstar&gt;{{Cite web |date=September 13, 2023 |title=35th Annual Pollstar Awards |url=https://www.pollstar.live/website/54914/pollstar-awards/ |access-date=November 26, 2023 |website=[[Pollstar]] |archive-date=November 26, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231126095604/https://www.pollstar.live/website/54914/pollstar-awards/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; |- | R&amp;B Tour of the Year | {{Won}} |- | Pop Tour of the Year | {{Nominated}} |- | Road Warrior of the Year | Marty Hom | {{Nominated}} |- | Brand Partnership/Live Campaign of the Year | [[Lexus]] | {{Nominated}} |- |[[Nickelodeon Kids' Choice Awards|Kids' Choice Awards]] |Favorite Ticket of The Year | Renaissance World Tour | {{nom}} |&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Grein |first=Paul |date=2024-06-04 |title=Taylor Swift, 'Barbie' Lead Nominations for 2024 Kids' Choice Awards (Full List) |url=https://www.billboard.com/music/awards/2024-kids-choice-awards-nominations-1235698356/ |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240604135113/https://www.billboard.com/music/awards/2024-kids-choice-awards-nominations-1235698356/ |archive-date=June 4, 2024 |access-date=2024-06-04 |magazine=Billboard |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; |} == Film == {{main|Renaissance: A Film by Beyoncé}} On October 1, 2023, the [[concert film]] ''Renaissance: A Film by Beyoncé'' was announced.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Hart |first=Robert |title=AMC Shares Rise In Premarket As Beyoncé Announces Renaissance Tour Film |url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2023/10/02/amc-shares-rise-in-premarket-as-beyonc-announces-renaissance-tour-film/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231003050621/https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2023/10/02/amc-shares-rise-in-premarket-as-beyonc-announces-renaissance-tour-film/ |archive-date=October 3, 2023 |access-date=2023-10-03 |website=Forbes |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Incorporating highlights from the full run of the tour and documentary footage of the development of both the ''Renaissance''&lt;nowiki/&gt;'s album and spectacle, the film was first premiered privately at [[Samuel Goldwyn Theater|Samuel Goldwyn Theatre]] in [[Los Angeles]] for invited guests on November 25, and then premiered publicly at [[Leicester Square Theatre|Leicester Square Theater]] on November 30. It released in theaters worldwide on December 1.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Donnelly |first=Matt |date=2023-10-02 |title=Beyoncé Drops Trailer for 'Renaissance' Concert Film, Opens Ticket Pre-Sales for December Release |language=en |work=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]] |url=https://variety.com/2023/music/news/beyonce-renaissance-movie-trailer-tour-1235741929/ |access-date=2023-10-03 |archive-date=October 2, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231002124642/https://variety.com/2023/music/news/beyonce-renaissance-movie-trailer-tour-1235741929/ |url-status=live }} *{{Cite news |last=Maciel |first=José J. |date=2023-10-02 |title=Cinépolis confirma estreno de &quot;Renaissance: A Film by Beyoncé&quot; en México |trans-title=Cinépolis confirms the premiere of &quot;Renaissance: A Film by Beyoncé&quot; in Mexico |language=es |work=El Imparcial |url=https://www.elimparcial.com/espectaculos/Cinepolis-confirma-estreno-de-Renaissance-A-Film-by-Beyonce-en-Mexico-20231002-0124.html |access-date=2023-10-03 |archive-date=October 5, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231005023702/https://www.elimparcial.com/espectaculos/Cinepolis-confirma-estreno-de-Renaissance-A-Film-by-Beyonce-en-Mexico-20231002-0124.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; == Legacy == The Renaissance World Tour has had a significant impact and has been described as a cultural phenomenon by critics.&lt;ref name=&quot;:31&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-08-11 |title=Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour Set to Surpass Taylor Swift's Eras Tour |url=https://news.yahoo.com/beyonc-renaissance-tour-set-surpass-200103298.html |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=Yahoo News |language=en-US |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092208/https://news.yahoo.com/beyonc-renaissance-tour-set-surpass-200103298.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:12&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Smialek |first1=Jeanna |last2=Holman |first2=Jordyn |date=2023-08-11 |title=Make the Whole Place Shimmer: America Spends Big for Beyoncé and Taylor Swift |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/11/business/beyonce-taylor-swift-tour-spending.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092207/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/11/business/beyonce-taylor-swift-tour-spending.html |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |access-date=2023-08-21 |work=[[The New York Times]] |language=en |issn=0362-4331}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Faughnder |first=Ryan |date=2023-08-15 |title=From Taylor Swift's Eras tour to 'Barbie,' women drive blockbusters. Will Hollywood notice? |url=https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/newsletter/2023-08-15/taylor-swift-greta-gerwig-and-power-great-stuff-made-by-women-the-wide-shot |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=Los Angeles Times |language=en-US |archive-date=August 18, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230818213833/https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/newsletter/2023-08-15/taylor-swift-greta-gerwig-and-power-great-stuff-made-by-women-the-wide-shot |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Wortham |first=Jenna |date=2023-09-27 |title=A Silvery, Shimmering Summer of Beyoncé |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/27/magazine/beyonce-renaissance-tour.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231002084530/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/27/magazine/beyonce-renaissance-tour.html |archive-date=October 2, 2023 |access-date=2023-10-02 |work=The New York Times |language=en-US |issn=0362-4331}}&lt;/ref&gt; In an article for ''Yahoo News'', Zayna Allen wrote that it is certain that &quot;this is a tour that will go down in history&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-08-18 |title=Exploring the Cultural Impact of Beyoncé's Renaissance World Tour |url=https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/exploring-cultural-impact-beyonc-renaissance-133000030.html |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=Yahoo Entertainment |language=en-US |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821125903/https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/exploring-cultural-impact-beyonc-renaissance-133000030.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; ''Boardroom''&lt;nowiki/&gt;'s Vinciane Ngomsi wrote that the tour &quot;will have set a precedent for how to produce a show that millions are willing to spend large sums on&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;:172&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Ngomsi |first=Vinciane |date=2023-08-08 |title=The Renaissance Tour: A Bastion of Fashion for Beyoncé Fans |url=https://boardroom.tv/beyonce-concert-fashion-renaissance-tour/ |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=Boardroom |language=en-US |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821150617/https://boardroom.tv/beyonce-concert-fashion-renaissance-tour/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; ''[[Grazia]]'' journalist Aaliyah Harry said that the tour &quot;spearheaded a cultural movement&quot; by supporting and elevating the LGBTQ+ community and creating fashion trends.&lt;ref name=&quot;:14&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Harry |first=Aaliyah |date=2023 |title=The Beyoncé Bump, Swiftonomics And Barbie-Billion: How Women Saved Summer |url=https://graziadaily.co.uk/life/in-the-news/taylor-swift-beyonce-barbie-economic-impact/ |access-date=2023-08-23 |website=Grazia |language=en |archive-date=August 22, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230822083846/https://graziadaily.co.uk/life/in-the-news/taylor-swift-beyonce-barbie-economic-impact/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; A 30-year cap on concerts in Sydney's [[Sydney Football Stadium (2022)|Allianz Stadium]] was lifted after Beyoncé's announcement of the tour.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-05-03 |title=Allianz Stadium concert cap could increase |url=https://www.smh.com.au/national/allianz-stadium-concert-cap-could-increase-20230503-p5d59z.html |access-date=2023-08-22 |website=The Sydney Morning Herald |language=en |archive-date=August 22, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230822105202/https://www.smh.com.au/national/allianz-stadium-concert-cap-could-increase-20230503-p5d59z.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; This led to a &quot;stadium war&quot;, with business executives petitioning [[Venues NSW]] to instead prioritize the larger [[Stadium Australia|Accor Stadium]] as the &quot;best venue to secure Beyoncé&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Morris |first=Linda |date=2023-05-08 |title=Sydney's east and west battle it out for Beyonce concert |url=https://www.smh.com.au/culture/music/sydney-s-east-and-west-battle-it-out-for-beyonce-concert-20230504-p5d5i8.html |access-date=2023-08-22 |website=The Sydney Morning Herald |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; A tumbler that Beyoncé was spotted using on tour sold out on [[Amazon (company)|Amazon]]. [[Patrick Starrr|Patrick Starr]]'s One/Size On 'Til Dawn Matte Waterproof Setting Spray sold out after Beyoncé used it on tour.&lt;ref name=&quot;:22&quot;&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Muhammad |first=Latifah |date=2023-08-29 |title=Did Fans Track Down Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour Tumbler? Here's Where You Can Buy It Online |url=https://www.billboard.com/culture/product-recommendations/beyonce-water-bottle-tumbler-where-to-buy-1235402718/ |access-date=2023-08-30 |magazine=Billboard |language=en-US |archive-date=August 30, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230830102200/https://www.billboard.com/culture/product-recommendations/beyonce-water-bottle-tumbler-where-to-buy-1235402718/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; === Economy === [[File:Bank_of_England_Building_(Ank_Kumar,_Infosys_Limited)_02.jpg|thumb|Revenue generated around the Renaissance World Tour contributed to inflation in the UK and Sweden, according to economists.]] The [[BBC]] said that the Renaissance World Tour &quot;marks a big economic moment&quot;,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Sherman |first=Natalie |date=2023-06-14 |title=Beyoncé blamed for inflation surprise in Sweden |language=en-GB |work=BBC News |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/business-65908054 |access-date=2023-08-21 |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092207/https://www.bbc.com/news/business-65908054 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; boosting countries' economies in a phenomenon dubbed the &quot;Beyoncé effect&quot;, &quot;Beyoncé bump&quot;, &quot;Beyoncé blip&quot; and &quot;Beyflation&quot; by experts.&lt;ref name=&quot;:31&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=Yelp coins the 'Beyoncé bump' for the economic halo created by the pop star's Renaissance Tour |url=https://fortune.com/2023/07/19/beyonce-renaissance-tour-economic-impact/ |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=Fortune |language=en |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821122902/https://fortune.com/2023/07/19/beyonce-renaissance-tour-economic-impact/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:15&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Chmielewski |first1=Dawn |last2=Broadway |first2=Danielle |last3=Ravikumar |first3=Sachin |last4=Broadway |first4=Danielle |last5=Ravikumar |first5=Sachin |date=2023-06-27 |title=Beyonce-flation? How stars are driving prices up as fans flock to concerts |language=en |work=Reuters |url=https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/popstars-could-be-powering-inflation-concert-prices-surge-2023-06-27/ |access-date=2023-08-21 |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092208/https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/popstars-could-be-powering-inflation-concert-prices-surge-2023-06-27/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The tour raised [[inflation]] in Sweden, due to the additional spending around Beyoncé's shows in Stockholm. [[Danske Bank]] Chief Economist Michael Grahn described the phenomenon as &quot;very rare&quot; and &quot;astonishing for a single event&quot;, adding: &quot;We haven't seen this before.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;:13&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-06-15 |title=Beyoncé single-handedly raised a country's inflation - CBS News |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/beyonce-renaissance-tour-inflation-sweden-economist-says/ |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=www.cbsnews.com |language=en-US |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092208/https://www.cbsnews.com/news/beyonce-renaissance-tour-inflation-sweden-economist-says/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In the UK, the tour led to an unexpected increase in [[consumer price index]] which led to an increase in inflation by the [[Bank of England]]. The tour contributed to a 6.8 percent rise in recreation and culture spending, the fastest in 30 years, which the [[Office for National Statistics]] said was the biggest driver for the rise in inflation.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-06-28 |title=Have expensive Beyoncé and Taylor Swift tickets driven inflation? |url=https://www.euronews.com/culture/2023/06/28/tourflation-how-the-worlds-biggest-music-stars-could-be-impacting-the-economy |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=[[Euronews]] |language=en |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092208/https://www.euronews.com/culture/2023/06/28/tourflation-how-the-worlds-biggest-music-stars-could-be-impacting-the-economy |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Kollmeyer |first=Barbara |title='Run the world': Beyoncé may have messed with yet another country's inflation data |url=https://www.marketwatch.com/story/run-the-world-beyonce-may-have-messed-with-another-countrys-inflation-data-2b35f522 |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=MarketWatch |language=EN-US |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092208/https://www.marketwatch.com/story/run-the-world-beyonce-may-have-messed-with-another-countrys-inflation-data-2b35f522 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Morgan Stanley]] warned clients of a similar rise in inflation in the US, with global chief economist Seth Carpenter saying: &quot;The Beyoncé effect should keep us from getting too complacent.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;:15&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Glover |first=George |title=The 'Beyoncé blip' in Sweden should remind investors that inflation could flare up again unexpectedly, Morgan Stanley says |url=https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/beyonce-blip-stock-market-crash-inflation-federal-reserve-morgan-stanley-2023-6 |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=Markets Insider |language=en-US |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092207/https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/beyonce-blip-stock-market-crash-inflation-federal-reserve-morgan-stanley-2023-6 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The tour boosted the local economies of the cities it visited.&lt;ref name=&quot;Dukes&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Dukes |first=Joi |date=2023-08-09 |title=Experts: Beyoncé's Renaissance World Tour has revenue buzzing |url=https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/experts-beyonces-renaissance-world-tour-revenue-buzzing-metro-atlanta |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=FOX 5 Atlanta |language=en-US |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092208/https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/experts-beyonces-renaissance-world-tour-revenue-buzzing-metro-atlanta |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:12&quot; /&gt; QuestionPro estimated the tour could generate $4.5 billion in economic activity, which is similar to the revenue that the [[2008 Summer Olympics]] of Beijing ($3.6 billion). Brett House, economist at [[Columbia Business School]], said that the tour has helped create a &quot;gentle cool-down&quot; of economic activity in the US during the summer, instead of the usual abrupt stop.&lt;ref name=&quot;:12&quot; /&gt; Professor Tom Smith of [[Emory University]]'s [[Goizueta Business School]] used the Renaissance World Tour as a case study in his lectures about events that have a significant impact on markets.&lt;ref name=&quot;Dukes&quot;/&gt; The tour's stop in Atlanta created an additional $10 million in revenue for local businesses.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Wright |first=Terell |date=August 14, 2023 |title=Beyoncé's Renaissance tour boosts Atlanta economy amid three-day run |url=https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2023/08/14/beyonc-atlanta-renaissance-tour.html |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=[[American City Business Journals]] |archive-date=August 23, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230823065401/https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2023/08/14/beyonc-atlanta-renaissance-tour.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Dukes&quot;/&gt; Hotel prices &quot;skyrocketed&quot; in Stockholm during the tour's stops in the city,&lt;ref name=&quot;:13&quot; /&gt; and the city's tourism board, Visit Stockholm, attributed high levels of tourism and almost full hotel occupancy to the &quot;Beyonce effect&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Beyonce blamed for surprise rise in inflation in Sweden |url=https://news.sky.com/story/beyonce-blamed-for-surprise-rise-in-inflation-in-sweden-12902684 |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=Sky News |language=en |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092207/https://news.sky.com/story/beyonce-blamed-for-surprise-rise-in-inflation-in-sweden-12902684 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; British hotel chain Travelodge said that the tour helped them achieve &quot;record-breaking [financial] results&quot;, with their hotels in London selling out during Beyoncé's residency in the city.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Neate |first=Rupert |date=2023-08-24 |title=Travelodge hotels sold out for Taylor Swift's 2024 UK Eras tour |language=en-GB |work=The Guardian |url=https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2023/aug/24/taylor-swifts-eras-tour-set-to-be-a-big-hit-for-travelodge-hotels |access-date=2023-08-25 |issn=0261-3077 |archive-date=August 26, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230826023937/https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2023/aug/24/taylor-swifts-eras-tour-set-to-be-a-big-hit-for-travelodge-hotels |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; More than 90% of hotels in the vicinity of [[Tottenham Hotspur Stadium]] were booked up for the dates of Beyoncé's shows in London months in advance,&lt;ref name=&quot;:4&quot; /&gt; and the price of hotel rooms in Sunderland soared by almost 600% for the night of Beyoncé's concert.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Morphy-Morris |first=Harriet |date=February 7, 2023 |title=Hotel prices on the night of Beyonce's 2023 Sunderland show soar to £500 a night |url=https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/whats-on/music-nightlife-news/hotel-prices-night-beyoncs-2023-26176147 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230207120751/https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/whats-on/music-nightlife-news/hotel-prices-night-beyoncs-2023-26176147 |archive-date=February 7, 2023 |access-date=February 7, 2023 |website=[[Evening Chronicle|ChronicleLive]] |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Hotel room prices soared in Edinburgh for the date of the concert, with the prices of hotel rooms increasing by more than 360% and occupancy reaching 95.1%.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Dewar |first=Caitlyn |date=2023-02-03 |title=Hotel prices soar as thousands try to secure Beyonce presale tickets |url=https://news.stv.tv/east-central/rush-for-beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-tickets-see-edinburgh-hotel-prices-soar-ahead-of-murrayfield-concert |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230203131338/https://news.stv.tv/east-central/rush-for-beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-tickets-see-edinburgh-hotel-prices-soar-ahead-of-murrayfield-concert |archive-date=February 3, 2023 |access-date=2023-02-03 |website=[[STV (TV channel)|STV News]] |language=en-GB}}&lt;/ref&gt; In Cardiff, 95.7% of hotel rooms were booked up for the date of Beyoncé's concert.&lt;ref name=&quot;:16&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=Are concerts &quot;running the world?&quot;: A look at how Beyoncé's Renaissance World Tour has impacted Europe hotel performance |url=https://str.com/data-insights-blog/are-concerts-running-world-look-how-beyonces-renaissance-world-tour-has-impacted-europe |website=STR |access-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-date=June 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230624050025/https://str.com/data-insights-blog/are-concerts-running-world-look-how-beyonces-renaissance-world-tour-has-impacted-europe |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Washington, D.C.'s [[Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority|Metro]] extended services by 30 minutes for the concert. After a delay due to the storm, Beyoncé paid the Metro $100,000 to stay open for an additional hour, covering the cost of running more trains and keeping all 98 stations open.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Hold Up Renaissance World Tour fans Metro will extend the last train by an extra hour to weather the storm {{!}} WMATA |url=https://www.wmata.com/about/news/Hold-Up-Renaissance-World-Tour-fans-Metro-will-extend-the-last-train-by-an-extra-hour-to-weather-the-storm.cfm |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=www.wmata.com |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092208/https://www.wmata.com/about/news/Hold-Up-Renaissance-World-Tour-fans-Metro-will-extend-the-last-train-by-an-extra-hour-to-weather-the-storm.cfm |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Beyoncé is her own transit system—The superstar paid $100,000 to keep D.C. subways running an extra hour after a severe weather delay |url=https://fortune.com/2023/08/07/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-dc-metro-paid-100000-keep-open/ |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=Fortune |language=en |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092208/https://fortune.com/2023/08/07/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-dc-metro-paid-100000-keep-open/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In Santa Clara, [[Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority|VTA]], [[Bay Area Rapid Transit|BART]] and [[Caltrain]] all announced that they were increasing the number of trains and extending service hours for Beyoncé's shows in the city.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-08-24 |title=Beyonce at Levi's Stadium: VTA, BART, Caltrain to have extra service - CBS San Francisco |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-levis-stadium-santa-clara-vta-bart-caltrain-extra-transit-service/ |access-date=2023-08-25 |website=www.cbsnews.com |language=en-US |archive-date=August 25, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230825081356/https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-levis-stadium-santa-clara-vta-bart-caltrain-extra-transit-service/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; There was also special transit organized for the concert in New Jersey, which included Beyoncé trivia, merchandise giveaways, and choreography practice.&lt;ref name=&quot;:12&quot; /&gt; Amtrak launched a new program to help concertgoers travel to the tour's US stops.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-07-14 |title=Amtrak wants to make travel to Beyoncé's 'Renaissance' tour easier for fans |url=https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/amtrak-travel-beyonce-renaissance-tour-fans |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=FOX TV Digital Team |language=en-US |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821092208/https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/amtrak-travel-beyonce-renaissance-tour-fans |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; === Fashion === [[File:Beyoncé_-_Tottenham_Hotspur_Stadium_-_1st_June_2023_(111_of_118)_(52946284060).jpg|thumb|221x221px|Demand for metallic clothing, inspired by Beyoncé's outfits, increased by almost 700%.]] According to ''[[Boardroom (company)|Boardroom]],'' the tour had a significant impact on fashion.&lt;ref name=&quot;:172&quot;/&gt; [[Women's Wear Daily]] reported that it generated $187 million in &quot;media impact value&quot; for the multiple brands that the singer worn at the various stops along the tour, including $7.7 million for [[Alexander McQueen (fashion house)|Alexander McQueen]], $7.2 million for [[Tiffany &amp; Co.]], $5.6 million for [[Balmain (fashion house)|Balmain]], and $3.7 million for [[Valentino (fashion house)|Valentino]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Socha |first=Miles |date=Aug 17, 2023 |title=Barbie, Beyoncé and Taylor Swift Are Winning the Attention Sweepstakes for Brands This Summer |url=https://wwd.com/fashion-news/fashion-scoops/barbie-beyonce-taylor-swift-fashion-brands-launchmetrics-attention-data-1235772137/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230818050515/https://wwd.com/fashion-news/fashion-scoops/barbie-beyonce-taylor-swift-fashion-brands-launchmetrics-attention-data-1235772137/ |archive-date=August 18, 2023 |access-date=August 18, 2023 |website=[[Women's Wear Daily]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&amp;nbsp;Lauren Cochrane, senior fashion writer at ''[[The Guardian]]'', described Beyoncé's concerts as &quot;the new designer catwalk&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;:182&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Cochrane |first=Lauren |date=2023-06-03 |title=Rise of the tourdrobe: how Beyoncé's gigs are the new designer catwalk |language=en-GB |work=The Observer |url=https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/jun/03/rise-of-the-tourdrobe-how-beyonces-gigs-are-the-new-designer-catwalk |access-date=2023-08-21 |issn=0029-7712 |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821150617/https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/jun/03/rise-of-the-tourdrobe-how-beyonces-gigs-are-the-new-designer-catwalk |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Designer [[David Koma]] said that it was &quot;amazing exposure&quot; and &quot;wonderful&quot; to be part of such an &quot;incredible, culture-defining event&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |date=2023-08-14 |title=Inside Beyoncé's impressive 'Renaissance' world tour wardrobe |url=https://www.harpersbazaar.com/uk/fashion/fashion-news/g43861352/beyonce-renaissance-tour-wardrobe-fashion/ |access-date=2023-08-21 |magazine=Harper's BAZAAR |language=en-GB |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821191409/https://www.harpersbazaar.com/uk/fashion/fashion-news/g43861352/beyonce-renaissance-tour-wardrobe-fashion/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Koma added: &quot;The visibility is incredible. Social media mentions, digital and print articles, and word of mouth – there’s an immediate rise in interest.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;:182&quot;/&gt; Beyoncé's disco-inspired metallic tour outfits made silver the reigning fashion trend of spring/summer 2023.&lt;ref name=&quot;:23&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-07-06 |title=How to shine all summer long in the disco-tastic silver trend |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/fashion/beyonce-sarah-michelle-gellar-michael-kors-gabbana-gucci-b2370400.html |access-date=2023-09-04 |website=The Independent |language=en |archive-date=September 4, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230904155936/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/fashion/beyonce-sarah-michelle-gellar-michael-kors-gabbana-gucci-b2370400.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:24&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-09-04 |title=7 Reasons Why Beyoncé Will Always Be That Girl |url=https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/happy-birthday-beyonce |access-date=2023-09-04 |website=British Vogue |language=en-GB |archive-date=September 4, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230904155931/https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/happy-birthday-beyonce |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The tour increased worldwide demand for silver and metallic outfits, with consumer interest rising by almost 700% and stores filling stock with silver clothing.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-05-12 |title=Metallic Fashion In Demand As Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour Continues |url=https://news.yahoo.com/metallic-fashion-demand-beyonc-renaissance-162427236.html |access-date=2023-08-21 |website=Yahoo News |language=en-US |archive-date=August 21, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230821150617/https://news.yahoo.com/metallic-fashion-demand-beyonc-renaissance-162427236.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:24&quot; /&gt; Chrome nails and metallic boots also became fashion trends due to the tour.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Hutchinson |first=Emily |date=2023-08-13 |title=All Of The Fall 2023 Nail Trends To Have On Your Radar |url=https://www.women.com/1359378/fall-2023-nail-manicure-trends/ |access-date=2023-09-03 |website=Women |language=en-US |archive-date=September 3, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230903222135/https://www.women.com/1359378/fall-2023-nail-manicure-trends/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Hutchinson |first=Emily |date=2023-08-27 |title=10 Fall 2023 Boot Trends You'll Want To Strut In |url=https://www.women.com/1359448/fall-2023-boot-trends/ |access-date=2023-09-03 |website=Women |language=en-US |archive-date=September 3, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230903222135/https://www.women.com/1359448/fall-2023-boot-trends/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Social commerce marketplaces [[Depop]] and [[Poshmark]] reported a rise in demand for silver clothing and a 500% increase in sales for items with &quot;Renaissance&quot; in the description or title.&lt;ref name=&quot;:23&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:212&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=Wear chrome, Beyoncé tells fans: Fast-fashion experts ring the alarm on concert attire |url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/music/2023/08/27/how-to-dress-sustainably-for-beyonce-taylor-swift-concerts/70671848007/ |access-date=2023-08-30 |website=USA TODAY |language=en-US |archive-date=August 30, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230830090054/https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/music/2023/08/27/how-to-dress-sustainably-for-beyonce-taylor-swift-concerts/70671848007/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; British supermodel [[Naomi Campbell]] designed a collection with metallic clothing inspired by the Renaissance World Tour, saying that it is &quot;no longer a concert&quot; but a movement.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Exclusive: Naomi Campbell Shares How Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour Inspired Her PrettyLittleThing Collaboration |url=https://flipboard.com/article/https%3A%2F%2Ffootwearnews.com%2Ffashion%2Fcollaborations%2Fnaomi-campbell-prettylittlething-beyonce-renaissance-nyfw-1203512669%2F |access-date=2023-09-08 |website=Flipboard |language=en |archive-date=September 8, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230908140514/https://flipboard.com/article/https:%2F%2Ffootwearnews.com%2Ffashion%2Fcollaborations%2Fnaomi-campbell-prettylittlething-beyonce-renaissance-nyfw-1203512669%2F |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Directo-Meston |first=Danielle |date=2023-09-05 |title=Naomi Campbell's PrettyLittleThing Collab Promises 'Renaissance'-Worthy Pieces Starting at $10 |url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/shopping/naomi-campbell-pretty-little-thing-collab-pricing-review-1235582566/ |access-date=2023-09-08 |website=The Hollywood Reporter |language=en-US |archive-date=September 8, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230908140512/https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/shopping/naomi-campbell-pretty-little-thing-collab-pricing-review-1235582566/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Small businesses also saw a surge in sales of silver items, with [[Etsy]] reporting a 25% increase in demand.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Yar |first=Sanam |date=2023-09-06 |title=Beyoncé Fuels a Small-Business Boom |language=en-US |work=The New York Times |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/06/style/beyonce-renaissance-silver-etsy-small-business.html |access-date=2023-09-08 |issn=0362-4331 |archive-date=September 8, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230908140511/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/06/style/beyonce-renaissance-silver-etsy-small-business.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Concertgoers were noted for creating outfits with metallic clothing inspired by the show,&lt;ref name=&quot;:172&quot;/&gt; with news organizations analyzing the phenomenon.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-06-08 |title='I Knew I Had To Come Correct': Beyoncé Fans Are Going All In on DIY 'Renaissance' Tour Looks |url=https://www.vogue.com/article/beyonce-fans-renaissance-world-tour-outfits |access-date=2023-08-30 |website=Vogue |language=en-US |archive-date=August 30, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230830090055/https://www.vogue.com/article/beyonce-fans-renaissance-world-tour-outfits |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:212&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=The Bigger, Cosmic Meaning Behind Wearing Silver to Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour |url=https://www.instyle.com/beyonce-renaissance-tour-silver-astrology-meaning-7963141 |access-date=2023-09-03 |website=InStyle |language=en |archive-date=September 3, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230903175601/https://www.instyle.com/beyonce-renaissance-tour-silver-astrology-meaning-7963141 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Public figures also participated in the trend, including US Vice President [[Kamala Harris]], [[Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex|Prince Harry]] and [[Meghan, Duchess of Sussex]], [[Diana Ross]], [[Katy Perry]] and [[Kim Kardashian]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Herndon |first=Ayana |date=2023-08-07 |title=Kamala Harris Channels 'Renaissance' Inspiration in Shimmering Gold LaQuan Smith Top for Beyoncé's Concert With Husband Douglas Emhoff |url=https://wwd.com/pop-culture/celebrity-news/kamala-harris-laquan-smith-beyonce-concert-1235762677/ |access-date=2023-09-03 |website=WWD |language=en-US |archive-date=September 3, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230903175601/https://wwd.com/pop-culture/celebrity-news/kamala-harris-laquan-smith-beyonce-concert-1235762677/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Piña |first=Christy |date=2023-09-02 |title=Pedro Pascal, Prince Harry and Meghan Markle Attend Beyoncé's Star-Studded Renaissance Tour Stop in L.A. |url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/music-news/beyonces-renaissance-tour-pedro-pascal-prince-harry-meghan-markle-1235580769/ |access-date=2023-09-03 |website=The Hollywood Reporter |language=en-US |archive-date=September 3, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230903175601/https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/music-news/beyonces-renaissance-tour-pedro-pascal-prince-harry-meghan-markle-1235580769/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-09-03 |title=Harry and Meghan spotted at Beyonce's Renaissance tour in Los Angeles |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/royal-family/harry-meghan-beyonce-los-angeles-b2403743.html |access-date=2023-09-03 |website=The Independent |language=en |archive-date=September 3, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230903175601/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/royal-family/harry-meghan-beyonce-los-angeles-b2403743.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-09-05 |title=See All the Celebrity Outfits at Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour |url=https://www.teenvogue.com/story/beyonce-renaissance-tour-celebrity-outfits-see-photos |access-date=2023-09-08 |website=Teen Vogue |language=en-US |archive-date=September 8, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230908140511/https://www.teenvogue.com/story/beyonce-renaissance-tour-celebrity-outfits-see-photos |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; British singer [[Adele]] said that she stayed up until 3&amp;nbsp;am buying metallic clothing on Amazon for the concert, while American comedian [[Rosie O'Donnell]] sought the help of fans to find suitable silver clothing.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-08-30 |title=Fans help Rosie O'Donnell find silver clothes for Beyoncé's concert |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/rosie-o-donnell-beyonce-concert-silver-clothes-b2401626.html |access-date=2023-09-03 |website=The Independent |language=en |archive-date=September 3, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230903180621/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/rosie-o-donnell-beyonce-concert-silver-clothes-b2401626.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Adele tells crowd she's wearing silver for Beyoncé show: 'I might look like a disco ball' |url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/music/2023/09/02/adele-las-vegas-residency-showcases-wisecracks-and-staggering-voice/70751886007/ |access-date=2023-09-03 |website=USA TODAY |language=en-US |archive-date=September 3, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230903180621/https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/music/2023/09/02/adele-las-vegas-residency-showcases-wisecracks-and-staggering-voice/70751886007/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Retailers created and marketed clothing inspired by outfits from the tour.&lt;ref name=&quot;:172&quot; /&gt; British luxury retailer [[Flannels (retail)|Flannels]], which Beyoncé partnered with to open a merchandise store in London, said that an increase in demand &quot;was immediate&quot; and that engagement continued to grow &quot;with incredible momentum&quot;, noting thousands of viral social media posts, long queues and sold-out products.&lt;ref name=&quot;:182&quot;/&gt; === Honors === * Leading up to the arrival of the Renaissance World Tour in [[Philadelphia]], [[WTXF-TV|Fox 29]] news anchor Alex Holley paid homage to Beyoncé by imitating her &quot;America Has A Problem&quot; performance on television with her co-news anchors.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine|last=Bowenbank|first=Starr|url=https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/renaissance-tour-philadelphia-news-anchor-beyonce-america-has-a-problem-video-1235370618/|title=Local News Anchor Re-Enacts Beyonce's 'America Has a Problem' to Welcome Renaissance Tour to Philly|date=12 June 2023|magazine=Billboard|accessdate=21 July 2023|archive-date=July 21, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230721153050/https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/renaissance-tour-philadelphia-news-anchor-beyonce-america-has-a-problem-video-1235370618/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; * In [[Minneapolis]], Mayor [[Jacob Frey]] proclaimed July 20 as &quot;Bey Day&quot;. [[Tim Walz]], governor of [[Minnesota]], also declared July 20 as &quot;Beyoncé Day&quot; in the state.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/mayor-jacob-frey-declares-thursday-bey-day-in-minneapolis/|title=Mayor Frey, Gov. Walz issue proclamations declaring it Beyonce Day in Minnesota|date=July 20, 2023|website=NBC News Minnesota|accessdate=July 20, 2023|archive-date=July 20, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230720224122/https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/mayor-jacob-frey-declares-thursday-bey-day-in-minneapolis/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; * [[New Jersey]] governor [[Phil Murphy]] proclaimed Beyoncé as &quot;Queen Honey-Bey&quot; in honor of her East Rutherford shows.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite tweet|user=GovMurphy|number=1684994450878087168|title=In honor of @Beyonce blessing New Jersey with her presence this weekend, I hereby proclaim the Irreplaceable lyrical genius &quot;Queen Honey-Bey&quot; of the Garden State. I hope this weekend is a Party to remember. #BeyHive|date=28 July 2023|accessdate=28 July 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; * Maryland governor [[Wes Moore]] proclaimed August 6 as &quot;Beyoncé Day&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-08-06 |title=Gov. Wes Moore declares 'Beyonce Day' in Maryland as singer performs shows at FedEx Field - CBS Baltimore |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/gov-wes-moore-declares-beyonce-day-in-maryland-as-singer-performs-shows-at-fedex-field/ |access-date=2023-08-22 |website=www.cbsnews.com |language=en-US |archive-date=August 10, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230810225252/https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/gov-wes-moore-declares-beyonce-day-in-maryland-as-singer-performs-shows-at-fedex-field/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; * Georgia's Own Credit Union celebrated Beyoncé's opening [[Atlanta]] show with a message saying &quot;Welcome to BEY-T-L&quot; on its building sign.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/welcome-bey-t-l-atlanta-celebrates-opening-day-beyonc-concert/KHXWOW4CYJHQRI7QKXY54TFTRI/|title='Welcome to BEY-T-L;' Atlanta celebrates opening day of Beyoncé concert|date=11 August 2023|website=WSB-TV|accessdate=20 August 2023|archive-date=August 20, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230820190639/https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/welcome-bey-t-l-atlanta-celebrates-opening-day-beyonc-concert/KHXWOW4CYJHQRI7QKXY54TFTRI/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Atlanta City Council dubbed August 11 as &quot;Beyoncé Day&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Dean|first1=Hope|last2=Montgomery|first2=Miles|url=https://www.atlantanewsfirst.com/2023/08/11/atlanta-city-council-dubs-friday-beyonc-day-before-anticipated-concerts/|title=Atlanta City Council dubs Friday 'Beyoncé Day' before anticipated concerts|date=11 August 2023|website=Atlanta News First|accessdate=20 August 2023|archive-date=August 20, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230820190639/https://www.atlantanewsfirst.com/2023/08/11/atlanta-city-council-dubs-friday-beyonc-day-before-anticipated-concerts/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; * New York's [[Circle Line Sightseeing Cruises|Circle Line Cruises]] ran a sold-out event in which a three-level cruise ship with hundreds of fans was transformed into a Beyoncé-themed party where participants learned the Renaissance World Tour choreography.&lt;ref name=&quot;:12&quot;/&gt; * [[St. Louis]] mayor [[Tishaura Jones]] declared August 21 as &quot;Queen Bey Day&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=&lt;!-- 6:24 PM CDT --&gt; August 21, 2023 |title=St. Louis mayor declares Aug. 21 'Queen Bey Day' ahead of Monday concert |url=https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local/queen-bey-day-renaissance-world-tour-st-louis/63-9e6777c6-427e-4741-a8e1-d569c12b7435 |access-date=2023-08-22 |website=ksdk.com |language=en-US |archive-date=August 22, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230822085439/https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local/queen-bey-day-renaissance-world-tour-st-louis/63-9e6777c6-427e-4741-a8e1-d569c12b7435 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; * The [[Illuminarium Experiences]] in Las Vegas is set to host a Beyoncé-themed show on August 25, 2023.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |author=News 3 Staff |date=2023-08-21 |title=Illuminarium celebrating Beyonce' ahead of tour stop in Las Vegas |url=https://news3lv.com/news/local/illuminarium-celebrating-beyonce-ahead-of-tour-stop-in-las-vegas |access-date=2023-08-22 |website=KSNV |language=en |archive-date=August 22, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230822085441/https://news3lv.com/news/local/illuminarium-celebrating-beyonce-ahead-of-tour-stop-in-las-vegas |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; * [[Santa Clara, California|Santa Clara]] presented Beyoncé with a key to the city; Mayor of the City invited Beyoncé to be the city's honorary mayor for a day ahead of her show at [[Levi's Stadium]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Fuentes |first=Zach |date= |title=Renaissance World Tour: Santa Clara to make Beyoncé honorary mayor, give her key to city ahead of Levi's Stadium show {{!}} abc7news.com |url=https://abc7news.com/amp/beyonce-tour-santa-clara-honorary-mayor-renaissance-world-key-to/13713237/ |access-date=2023-08-29 |website=abc7news.com |archive-date=August 29, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230829202137/https://abc7news.com/amp/beyonce-tour-santa-clara-honorary-mayor-renaissance-world-key-to/13713237/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; == Philanthropy == As with previous tours, Beyoncé supported communities in the cities she performs in. Throughout the tour, Beyoncé's [[BeyGood|BeyGOOD]] Foundation provided 1,000 small business owners from marginalized communities with grant opportunities, celebration luncheons, and resources to support entrepreneurship. Beyoncé also donated scholarships worth $1 million to students in colleges and universities in cities she performed in during the tour.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-02-02 |title=BEYONCÉ RETURNS TO THE GLOBAL STAGE FOR HER RENAISSANCE WORLD TOUR – Music |url=https://vergemagazine.co.uk/beyonce-returns-to-the-global-stage-for-her-renaissance-world-tour/ |access-date=2023-02-02 |last=Khan |first=Fatima |website=Verge Magazine |language=en-GB |archive-date=February 2, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230202174723/https://vergemagazine.co.uk/beyonce-returns-to-the-global-stage-for-her-renaissance-world-tour/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Beyoncé donated $10,000 to a Nigerian restaurant in London that was at risk of closing down due to [[COVID-19 pandemic]]. The contribution was facilitated by a fund established by Beyoncé during the tour. This fund was specifically designed to aid small businesses impacted by economic inequalities in the regions where her performances took place.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=London |first=Lela |title=Beyoncé Donates $10,000 To Save Nigerian Restaurant In London |url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/lelalondon/2023/06/26/beyonc-donates-10000-to-save-nigerian-restaurant-in-london/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230629170620/https://www.forbes.com/sites/lelalondon/2023/06/26/beyonc-donates-10000-to-save-nigerian-restaurant-in-london/ |archive-date=June 29, 2023 |access-date=2024-05-27 |website=[[Forbes]] |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Beyoncé collaborated with the American luxury jewelry house [[Tiffany &amp; Co.|Tiffany &amp; Co]]. to release a limited-edition Return to Tiffany x Beyoncé Collection inspired by her ''Renaissance World Tour''. All profits from the sale of this collection were donated to the ABOUT LOVE Scholarship Program, a partnership between Tiffany &amp; Co., BeyGOOD, and the Shawn Carter Foundation, benefiting students in the arts and creative fields at [[historically black colleges and universities]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Denis |first=Kyle |date=2023-07-27 |title=Beyoncé Brings the Renaissance to Tiffany &amp; Co. With New Limited Edition Collection |url=https://www.billboard.com/culture/lifestyle/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-collection-tiffany-and-co-1235380202/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240118035110/https://www.billboard.com/culture/lifestyle/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-collection-tiffany-and-co-1235380202/ |archive-date=January 18, 2024 |access-date=2024-05-27 |magazine=Billboard |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Set list == Adapted from the tour credits listed on Beyoncé's website&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Credits |url=https://beyonce.com/credits/ |website=Beyonce |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231217122247/https://beyonce.com/credits/ |archive-date=December 17, 2023 }}&lt;/ref&gt; and press coverage of the show,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://variety.com/2023/music/news/beyonce-renaissance-tour-setlist-merch-stage-design-1235608791/|title=Beyoncé Renaissance Tour: The Full Setlist From Opening Night|last=Garcia|first=Thania|work=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|date=May 10, 2023|access-date=May 11, 2023|archive-date=June 30, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230630170310/https://variety.com/2023/music/news/beyonce-renaissance-tour-setlist-merch-stage-design-1235608791/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Viswanath |first=Jake |date=2023-05-10 |title=Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour Setlist Includes Classics &amp; Surprises |url=https://www.bustle.com/entertainment/beyonce-setlist-2023-tour-renaissance-concert-songs-list |access-date=2023-05-23 |website=Bustle |language=en |archive-date=May 19, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230519234916/https://www.bustle.com/entertainment/beyonce-setlist-2023-tour-renaissance-concert-songs-list |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Ruggieri |first1=Melissa |title=Beyoncé Renaissance tour 2023 setlist: Full list of all songs in her nearly 3-hour show |url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/music/2023/05/10/beyonc-set-list-renaissance-world-tour/70206073007/ |website=USA TODAY |access-date=1 June 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; this setlist represents the opening night setlist performed on May 10, 2023 in Stockholm. Variations to the setlist over the course of the concert run are noted below. ;Opening Act ''&quot;The Signboard&quot; video introduction'' # &quot;[[Dangerously in Love 2]]&quot; # &quot;[[Flaws and All]]&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Adventures in the Land of Music]]&quot;)}} # &quot;[[1+1 (song)|1+1]]&quot; / &quot;[[I'm Going Down (Rose Royce song)|I'm Goin' Down]]&quot; # &quot;[[I Care (Beyoncé song)|I Care]]&quot; ;Act I – Renaissance ''&quot;Opera Intro&quot; and &quot;Loop the Sample&quot; interludes {{small|(contain samples of &quot;[[Energy (Beyoncé song)|Energy]]&quot; and &quot;[[Derrick Carter|Where U At?]]&quot;)}}'' #&lt;li value=5&gt; &quot;I'm That Girl&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Apeshit]]&quot;)}} # &quot;[[Cozy (song)|Cozy]]&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Lidell Townsell|Get With U (Riot Mix)]]&quot;)}} # &quot;[[Alien Superstar]]&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Sweet Dreams (Beyoncé song)|Sweet Dreams]]&quot;)}} # &quot;[[Lift Off (song)|Lift Off]]&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Neil DeGrasse Tyson|What is Time]]&quot;)}} ''&quot;[[7/11 (song)|7/11]]&quot; {{small|([[Les Twins]] dance break)}}'' ;Act II – Motherboard ''&quot;Motherboard&quot; interlude {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Can You Feel It (Larry Heard song)|Can You Feel It]]&quot;)}}'' #&lt;li value=9&gt; &quot;[[Cuff It]]&quot; / &quot;Cuff It (Wetter Remix)&quot; {{small|(contains interpolations of &quot;[[A Night to Remember (Shalamar song)|A Night to Remember]]&quot; and &quot;[[Love You Down]]&quot;)}} # &quot;[[Energy (Beyoncé song)|Energy]]&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[End of Time (Beyoncé song)|End of Time]]&quot;)}} {{Small|(Contains interpolations of [[Kelis|Kelis's]] [[Milkshake (song)|Milkshake]], previously removed from the original version of the [[Energy (Beyoncé song)|song]].)}} # &quot;[[Break My Soul]]&quot; / &quot;Break My Soul (The Queens Remix) {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Shake Your Body (Down to the Ground)]]&quot;)}} ;Act III – Opulence ''&quot;Opulence&quot; interlude {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[No Angel (Beyoncé song)|No Angel]]&quot;, &quot;[[Jack Your Body]]&quot; and &quot;[[Delusions (First Choice album)|Let No Man Put Asunder]]&quot;)}}'' #&lt;li value=12&gt; &quot;[[Formation (song)|Formation]]&quot; # &quot;[[Diva (Beyoncé song)|Diva]]&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Countdown (Beyoncé song)|Countdown]]&quot; and &quot;[[Just Wanna Rock]]&quot;)}} # &quot;[[Run the World (Girls)]]&quot; # &quot;[[The Lion King: The Gift|My Power]]&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Uncle Waffles|Tanzania]]&quot;, &quot;[[Alright (Kendrick Lamar song)|Alright]]&quot; and &quot;[[Curtis Mayfield|Pusherman]]&quot;)}} # &quot;[[Black Parade (song)|Black Parade]]&quot; # &quot;[[Savage (Megan Thee Stallion song)#Beyoncé remix|Savage (Remix)]]&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Yoncé]]&quot; and &quot;[[Still Tippin']]&quot;)}} # &quot;[[Partition (song)|Partition]]&quot; ;Act IV – Anointed ''&quot;Anointed&quot; interlude {{small|(contains samples of &quot;Yoncé&quot;, &quot;[[Sounds of Unity and Love|To Mend a Broken Heart]]&quot; and &quot;[[Family Feud (song)|Family Feud]]&quot;)}}'' #&lt;li value=19&gt; &quot;Church Girl&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Ego (Beyoncé song)|Ego]],&quot; &quot;[[Party (Beyoncé song)|Party]]&quot; and &quot;[[Pass the Courvoisier, Part II]]&quot;)}} # &quot;[[Get Me Bodied]]&quot; # &quot;[[Before I Let Go#Beyoncé version|Before I Let Go]]&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Freakum Dress]]&quot;)}} # &quot;[[Rather Die Young]]&quot; # &quot;[[Love On Top]]&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[I Want You Back]]&quot;)}} # &quot;[[Crazy in Love]]&quot; ''&quot;Band Jam&quot; instrumental outro {{small|(&quot;[[Work It Out (Beyoncé song)|Work It Out]]&quot;, &quot;[[Green Light (Beyoncé song)|Green Light]]&quot;, and &quot;[[Freedom (Beyoncé song)|Freedom]]&quot;)}}'' ;Act V – Anointed Pt. II ''&quot;[[Love Hangover]]&quot; {{small|(background singers intermission)}}'' #&lt;li value=25&gt; &quot;Plastic Off the Sofa&quot; # &quot;[[Virgo's Groove]]&quot; / &quot;[[Naughty Girl (Beyoncé song)|Naughty Girl]]&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Dangerously in Love|Be With You]],&quot; &quot;[[Rocket (Beyoncé song)|Rocket]]&quot;, &quot;[[Cater 2 U]]&quot;, &quot;[[Dangerously in Love|Signs]]&quot;, &quot;[[Dangerously in Love|Speechless]]&quot;, &quot;[[Say My Name]]&quot;, and &quot;[[Dance for You]]&quot;)}} # &quot;Move&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Move Ya Body]]&quot; and &quot;[[Free Mind]]&quot;)}} # &quot;[[Heated (Beyoncé song)|Heated]]&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;Pussy on Fire&quot; and &quot;[[Into You (Fabolous song)|Into You]]&quot;)}} ''&quot;[[Already (song)|Already]]&quot; {{small|([[Les Twins]] dance break; contains samples of &quot;[[All the Great Love Songs|Say Yeah]]&quot; and &quot;Run Risk&quot; by Braintear Spookie)}}'' ;Act VI – Memories Run Through My Wires &lt;!--Official name of the act and interlude--&gt; ''&quot;Memories Run Through My Wires&quot;'' interlude {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Kitty Kat (song)|Kitty Kat]]&quot;, &quot;Kitty Klap ([[MikeQ]] Remix)&quot;, &quot;[[Flawless (Beyoncé song)|***Flawless]]&quot;, &quot;Virgo's Groove&quot;, &quot;[[The Lion King: The Gift|Find Your Way Back]]&quot;, &quot;[[Love Songs (Destiny's Child album)|Nuclear]]&quot;, &quot;[[End of Time (Beyoncé song)|End of Time]]&quot;, and &quot;[[Everything Is Love|Heard About Us]]&quot;)}} #&lt;li value=29&gt; &quot;Thique&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Toxic (song)|Toxic]]&quot;)}} # &quot;All Up in Your Mind&quot; # &quot;[[Drunk in Love]]&quot; ;Act VII – Mind Control ''&quot;Mind Control&quot;'' interlude {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Haunted (Beyoncé song)|Ghost]]&quot;, &quot;[[Haunted (Beyoncé song)|Haunted]]&quot;, &quot;[[Bootylicious]]&quot;, &quot;[[Jumpin', Jumpin']]&quot;, and &quot;[[Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It)]]&quot;)}} #&lt;li value=32&gt; &quot;[[America Has a Problem]]&quot; #&quot;[[Pure/Honey]]&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Blow (Beyoncé song)|Blow]]&quot;)}} ''[[Ball culture|Ballroom]] dance break'' #&lt;li value=34&gt; &quot;Summer Renaissance&quot; / &quot;Summer Renaissance (Remix)&quot; {{small|(contains elements of &quot;[[Mystery of Love (Larry Heard song)|Mystery of Love]]&quot;)}} ===Notes=== * The &quot;Memories Run Through My Wires&quot; section was performed only at the opening night show in Stockholm, the third show in Atlanta, and the shows in Inglewood, Houston, New Orleans and Kansas City.&lt;ref name=&quot;:28&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-08-16 |title=Beyoncé Went All Out For Her 3-Day Atlanta Stop, Deems City As The Best Crowd During Renaissance World Tour |url=https://news.yahoo.com/beyonc-went-her-3-day-152255150.html |access-date=2023-08-29 |website=Yahoo News |language=en-US |archive-date=August 22, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230822220855/https://news.yahoo.com/beyonc-went-her-3-day-152255150.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:25&quot;&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Johnson |first=Cat |date=2023-09-04 |title=8 Best Moments From Beyoncé's Renaissance World Tour in Los Angeles |url=https://www.billboard.com/lists/beyonce-los-angeles-sofi-stadium-concerts-best-moments/ |access-date=2023-09-04 |magazine=Billboard |language=en-US |archive-date=September 4, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230904210215/https://www.billboard.com/lists/beyonce-los-angeles-sofi-stadium-concerts-best-moments/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:27&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Guerra |first=Joey |date=2023-09-24 |title='I love you, Beyoncé!': Megan Thee Stallion performs during Renaissance World Tour stop in Houston |url=https://www.houstonchronicle.com/entertainment/music/article/beyonce-renaissance-tour-houston-concert-review-18383382.php |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230926141709/https://www.houstonchronicle.com/entertainment/music/article/beyonce-renaissance-tour-houston-concert-review-18383382.php |archive-date=2023-09-26 |access-date=2024-01-04 |website=[[Houston Chronicle]] |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:29&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Kollath Wells |first=Carlie |date=2023-09-28 |title=Beyoncé dazzles at the Superdome in New Orleans |url=https://www.axios.com/local/new-orleans/2023/09/28/beyonce-renaissance-new-orleans-show |url-status=live |archive-url=https://archive.today/20231128163038/https://www.axios.com/local/new-orleans/2023/09/28/beyonce-renaissance-new-orleans-show |archive-date=2023-11-28 |access-date=2024-01-04 |work=Axios}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:30&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Hernandez |first=Joseph |date=2023-10-02 |title=Beyoncé set list: Here all the songs she performed at Arrowhead Stadium in Kansas City |url=https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article280010389.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231128163433/https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article280010389.html |archive-date=2023-11-28 |work=[[The Kansas City Star]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; This section was omitted from all other concerts. * Beginning with the May 20, 2023, show in Edinburgh, Scotland, Beyoncé incorporated elements of the remix of &quot;[[America Has a Problem]]&quot; featuring [[Kendrick Lamar]] in her performance of the song.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Quiroz |first=Montserrat |date=2023-05-22 |title=Beyoncé y Kendrick Lamar sorprenden con remix de &quot;America Has a Problem&quot; |trans-title=Beyoncé and Kendrick Lamar surprise with &quot;America Has a Problem&quot; remix |url=https://los40.cl/2023/beyonce-y-kendrick-lamar-sorprenden-con-remix-sorpresa-de-america-has-a-problem-154190.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230608043553/https://los40.cl/2023/beyonce-y-kendrick-lamar-sorprenden-con-remix-sorpresa-de-america-has-a-problem-154190.html |archive-date=2023-06-08 |access-date=2024-02-20 |website=[[:es:Los 40 (Chile)|LOS40 Chile]] |language=es}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.iheart.com/content/2023-05-22-beyonc-recruits-kendrick-lamar-for-america-has-a-problem-remix/|title=Beyoncé Recruits Kendrick Lamar For 'America Has A Problem' Remix|last=Centeno|first=Tony M.|website=[[IHeartRadio]]|date=May 23, 2023|access-date=May 24, 2023|archive-date=May 24, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230524092802/https://www.iheart.com/content/2023-05-22-beyonc-recruits-kendrick-lamar-for-america-has-a-problem-remix/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; * Beginning with the May 26, 2023, show in Paris, France, Beyoncé's daughter [[Blue Ivy Carter]] occasionally joined the stage to dance to &quot;My Power&quot; and &quot;[[Black Parade (song)|Black Parade]]&quot;. She was subsequently named a dancer in the official tour credits.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.hola.com/us/celebrities/20230526346242/beyonce-brings-out-blue-ivy-to-dance-in-front-of-an-eighty-thousand-crowd-in-paris/|title=Beyoncé brings out Blue Ivy to dance in front of 80,000 people in Paris, France|last=Trujillo|first=Jovita|website=[[¡Hola!]]|date=May 26, 2023|access-date=May 27, 2023|archive-date=May 27, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230527073214/https://www.hola.com/us/celebrities/20230526346242/beyonce-brings-out-blue-ivy-to-dance-in-front-of-an-eighty-thousand-crowd-in-paris/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=London&gt;{{cite web|last=Iorizzo|first=Ellie|title=Beyonce kicks off first London show with gratitude during dazzling disco party|date=May 29, 2023|website=Yahoo! News|url=https://uk.news.yahoo.com/beyonce-kicks-off-first-london-223746754.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&amp;guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIilvDni8FpD4c99UCD1jK8tzp0p0Wt_rTyrKcbZ2s5utNOxiIOIN5DLRKIoKd4UGdgFNomlM8OAuYkBMtpFeUpmpxRtCqzF7GNO5j6-8jUZFdS8oSEMuDO-f63P4yESEwddQkQCp63-LXKP6Wu4cJCnVSXan5X_hxKeLkTN_dap|access-date=May 29, 2023|archive-date=May 29, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230529225340/https://uk.news.yahoo.com/beyonce-kicks-off-first-london-223746754.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&amp;guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIilvDni8FpD4c99UCD1jK8tzp0p0Wt_rTyrKcbZ2s5utNOxiIOIN5DLRKIoKd4UGdgFNomlM8OAuYkBMtpFeUpmpxRtCqzF7GNO5j6-8jUZFdS8oSEMuDO-f63P4yESEwddQkQCp63-LXKP6Wu4cJCnVSXan5X_hxKeLkTN_dap|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; * Beginning with the May 29, 2023, show in London, England, Beyoncé performed a cover of &quot;[[River Deep – Mountain High]]&quot; by [[Ike &amp; Tina Turner]], following &quot;[[I Care (Beyoncé song)|I Care]]&quot;, as a tribute to Tina following her death.&lt;ref name=London /&gt; **This song was shortened from the second Warsaw concert on June 28, 2023 to the end of the tour.&lt;ref name=&quot;:32&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-06-29 |title=Beyonce w Polsce: Koncert, kontrowersje i przekaz na telebimie. Szczegóły &quot;Renaissance World Tour&quot; |trans-title=Beyonce in Poland: Concert, controversy and broadcast on television. &quot;Renaissance World Tour&quot; details |url=https://muzyka.interia.pl/wiadomosci/news-beyonce-na-koncercie-uderzyla-w-polski-rzad-fani-od-razu-zar,nId,6871255 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240107160846/https://muzyka.interia.pl/wiadomosci/news-beyonce-na-koncercie-uderzyla-w-polski-rzad-fani-od-razu-zar,nId,6871255 |archive-date=2024-01-07 |access-date=2024-01-07 |website=Muzyka Interia |language=pl}}&lt;/ref&gt; * At the June 21, 2023, show in Hamburg, Germany, Beyoncé sang part of &quot;My Power&quot; acapella as a tribute to the recently deceased Andre Jose Marshall II, brother of the tour's dance co-captain Amari Marshall, who only appeared onstage for this segment of the show to dedicate a dance solo to him after a moment of silence.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.capitalfm.com/news/music/beyonce-renaissance-hamburg-amari-marshall/|title=Beyoncé Dedicates 'Renaissance' Concert In Hamburg To Dancer's Late Brother|last=Knight|first=Kathryn|website=Capital FM|date=June 22, 2023|access-date=June 24, 2023|archive-date=June 24, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230624053948/https://www.capitalfm.com/news/music/beyonce-renaissance-hamburg-amari-marshall/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; *At the second shows in Warsaw, Poland on June 28, 2023, and in Washington D.C on August 6, &quot;[[Rather Die Young]]&quot; and &quot;[[Love on Top]]&quot; were not performed.&lt;ref name=&quot;:32&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Kravis |first=Isabelle |date=2023-08-08 |title=Beyoncé shines at FedEx Field, despite venue complications |url=https://www.washingtonblade.com/2023/08/08/beyonce-shines-at-fedex-field-despite-venue-complications/,%20https://www.washingtonblade.com/2023/08/08/beyonce-shines-at-fedex-field-despite-venue-complications/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231005000918/https://www.washingtonblade.com/2023/08/08/beyonce-shines-at-fedex-field-despite-venue-complications/ |archive-date=2023-10-05 |access-date=2024-01-04 |website=[[Washington Blade]] |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; *Beginning with the July 29, 2023, show in East Rutherford, elements of &quot;[[Delresto (Echoes)]]&quot; were incorporated into the &quot;Renaissance&quot; interlude.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Masley |first=Ed |date=2023-08-25 |title=Beyonce's Renaissance Tour setlist: Every song she sang at her Phoenix concert |url=https://www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/music/2023/08/25/beyonce-renaissance-tour-2023-setlist-phoenix/70572289007/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231209062604/https://www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/music/2023/08/25/beyonce-renaissance-tour-2023-setlist-phoenix/70572289007/ |archive-date=2023-12-09 |access-date=2024-02-20 |website=[[The Arizona Republic]] |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; *During the show in Glendale on August 24, 2023, there was a malfunction of the sound system during &quot;Alien Superstar&quot;. Beyoncé left the stage and the concert stopped for 10 minutes, after which Beyoncé restarted the song wearing a new outfit.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Lane |first1=Barnaby |title=Beyoncé had to pause her latest Renaissance World Tour concert for 10 minutes due to a sound system failure, but the superstar quickly recovered — and dazzled fans in a new outfit |url=https://www.insider.com/beyonce-sound-system-failure-arizona-tour-new-outfit-2023-8 |website=Insider |access-date=August 25, 2023 |archive-date=November 15, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231115223704/https://www.insider.com/beyonce-sound-system-failure-arizona-tour-new-outfit-2023-8 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; * At the September 4, 2023, show in Inglewood, Beyoncé spotted old friend [[Tia Mowry]] in the audience, blew her a kiss, and then spontaneously interpolated a portion of &quot;Yeah, Yeah, Yeah&quot; from Mowry's childhood girl group [[Voices (American band)|Voices]] into &quot;1+1&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |date=2023-09-06|title=Tia Mowry ‘Can’t Believe’ Beyoncé Paid Tribute to Her Childhood Girl Group During L.A. Concert |url=https://variety.com/2023/music/news/tia-mowry-cant-believe-beyonce-paid-tribute-childhood-girl-group-1235715500/|access-date=2024-09-27 |magazine=Variety}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |date=2023-09-06|title=Beyoncé Improvised a Voices Reference for Tia Mowry at Renaissance Show: See How She Reacted |url=https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/beyonce-tia-mowry-tribute-renaissance-show-1235407194/|access-date=2024-09-27 |magazine=Billboard}}&lt;/ref&gt; Later that same evening, [[Diana Ross]] joined the Pure Honey singers onstage for their performance of &quot;[[Love Hangover]]&quot; and led the audience in singing &quot;[[Happy Birthday to You|Happy Birthday]]&quot; to Beyoncé.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |date=2023-09-05 |title=Diana Ross Sings 'Happy Birthday' to Beyoncé at Star-Studded Renaissance Show |url=https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/diana-ross-beyonce-happy-birthday-renaissance-concert-1235406051/ |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230906163829/https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/diana-ross-beyonce-happy-birthday-renaissance-concert-1235406051/amp/ |archive-date=2023-09-06 |access-date=2023-09-06 |magazine=Billboard}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Kendrick Lamar]] also joined Beyoncé onstage to perform his verse on the &quot;America Has a Problem&quot; remix.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Denis |first=Kyle |date=September 5, 2023 |title=Beyoncé &amp; Kendrick Lamar Perform 'America Has a Problem' Live for First Time on Renaissance Tour |url=https://www.billboard.com/music/rb-hip-hop/beyonce-kendrick-lamar-perform-america-has-a-problem-live-renaissance-tour-1235406082/ |access-date=October 8, 2023 |magazine=Billboard |archive-date=October 9, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231009082344/https://www.billboard.com/music/rb-hip-hop/beyonce-kendrick-lamar-perform-america-has-a-problem-live-renaissance-tour-1235406082/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; *At the September 23 and 24, 2023, shows in [[Houston]], [[Megan Thee Stallion]] joined Beyoncé onstage to perform &quot;Savage Remix&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;:27&quot; /&gt; == Tour dates == {|class=&quot;wikitable plainrowheaders&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot; |+List of concerts, showing date, city, country, venue, attendance and gross revenue&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023 |title=Year-End Top 300 Concert Grosses |url=https://data.pollstar.com/Chart/2024/01/121123_ye.top300.concert.grosses_digital_1040.pdf |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240226172312/https://data.pollstar.com/Chart/2024/01/121123_ye.top300.concert.grosses_digital_1040.pdf |archive-date=26 February 2024 |access-date=26 February 2024 |website=Pollstar}}&lt;/ref&gt; |- ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:12em;&quot;| Date (2023) ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:10em;&quot;| City ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:10em;&quot;| Country ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:17em;&quot;| Venue ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:10em;&quot;| Attendance ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:10em;&quot;| Revenue |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| May 10 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Stockholm]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Sweden | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Friends Arena]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| 90,169 / 90,169 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| $9,802,155 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| May 11 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| May 14 | [[Brussels]] | Belgium | [[King Baudouin Stadium]] | 53,062 / 53,062 | $6,529,627 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| May 17 | [[Cardiff]] | Wales | [[Principality Stadium|Principality Stadium]] | 52,756 / 52,756 | $6,967,662 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| May 20 | [[Edinburgh]] | Scotland | [[Murrayfield Stadium|BT Murrayfield Stadium]] | 55,834 / 55,834 | $7,872,596 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| May 23 | [[Sunderland]] | England | [[Stadium of Light]] | 44,790 / 44,790 | $6,217,446 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| May 26 | [[Saint-Denis, Seine-Saint-Denis|Saint-Denis]]{{efn-lr|Labelled as [[Paris]] in promotional material.}} | France | [[Stade de France]] | 68,624 / 68,624 | $9,402,605 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| May 29 | rowspan=&quot;5&quot;| [[London]] | rowspan=&quot;5&quot;| England | rowspan=&quot;5&quot;| [[Tottenham Hotspur Stadium]] | rowspan=&quot;5&quot;| 240,330 / 240,330 | rowspan=&quot;5&quot;| $38,986,169 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| May 30 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| June 1 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| June 3 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| June 4 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| June 8 | [[Barcelona]] | Spain | [[Estadi Olímpic Lluís Companys]] | 52,889 / 52,889 | $6,694,569 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| June 11 | [[Marseille]] | France | [[Stade Vélodrome|Orange Vélodrome]] | 56,352 / 56,352 | $7,070,570 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| June 15 | [[Cologne]] | Germany | [[RheinEnergieStadion]] | 41,166 / 41,166 | $5,437,729 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| June 17 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Amsterdam]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Netherlands | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Johan Cruyff Arena]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| 97,657 / 97,657 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| $12,817,577 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| June 18 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| June 21 | [[Hamburg]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Germany | [[Volksparkstadion]] | 43,335 / 43,335 | $5,757,020 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| June 24 | [[Frankfurt]] | [[Waldstadion (Frankfurt)|Deutsche Bank Park]] | 42,280 / 42,280 | $5,852,675 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| June 27 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Warsaw]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Poland | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Stadion Narodowy|PGE Narodowy]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| 108,141 / 108,141 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| $12,378,058 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| June 28 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| July 8 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Toronto]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| Canada | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Rogers Centre]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| 76,577 / 76,577 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| $18,340,330 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| July 9 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| July 12 | [[Philadelphia]] | rowspan=&quot;26&quot;| United States | [[Lincoln Financial Field]] | 52,181 / 52,181 | $11,976,831 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| July 15 | [[Nashville, Tennessee|Nashville]] | [[Nissan Stadium]] | 44,742 / 44,742 | $9,412,176 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| July 17 | [[Louisville, Kentucky|Louisville]] | [[L&amp;N Federal Credit Union Stadium]] | 41,818 / 41,818 | $6,450,896 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| July 20 | [[Minneapolis]] | [[Huntington Bank Stadium]] | 39,415 / 39,415 | $8,217,178 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| July 22 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Chicago]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Soldier Field]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| 97,686 / 97,686 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| $30,115,863 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| July 23 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| July 26 | [[Detroit]] | [[Ford Field]] | 44,554 / 44,554 | $9,963,756 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| July 29 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[East Rutherford, New Jersey|East Rutherford]]{{efn-lr|Labelled as [[New York City]] in promotional material.}} | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[MetLife Stadium]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| 106,056 / 106,056 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| $33,082,997 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| July 30 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 1 | [[Foxborough, Massachusetts|Foxborough]]{{efn-lr|Labelled as [[Boston]] in promotional material.}} | [[Gillette Stadium]] | 49,740 / 49,740 | $13,801,160 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 5 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Landover, Maryland|Landover]]{{efn-lr|Labelled as [[Washington, D.C.]] in promotional material.}} | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[FedExField]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| 97,909 / 97,909 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| $29,392,299 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 6 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 9 | [[Charlotte, North Carolina|Charlotte]] | [[Bank of America Stadium]] | 53,612 / 53,612 | $12,227,012 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 11 | rowspan=&quot;3&quot;| [[Atlanta]] | rowspan=&quot;3&quot;| [[Mercedes-Benz Stadium]] | rowspan=&quot;3&quot;| 156,317 / 156,317 | rowspan=&quot;3&quot;| $39,849,890 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 12 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 14 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 16 | [[Tampa, Florida|Tampa]] | [[Raymond James Stadium]] | 55,408 / 55,408 | $13,158,166 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 18 | [[Miami Gardens, Florida|Miami Gardens]]{{efn-lr|Labelled as [[Miami]] in promotional material.}} | [[Hard Rock Stadium]] | 47,487 / 47,487 | $14,362,704 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 21 | [[St. Louis]] | [[The Dome at America's Center]] | 45,836 / 45,836 | $7,064,451 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 24 | [[Glendale, Arizona|Glendale]]{{efn-lr|Labelled as [[Phoenix, Arizona|Phoenix]] in promotional material.}} | [[State Farm Stadium]] | 54,705 / 54,705 | $8,226,165 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 26 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Paradise, Nevada|Paradise]]{{efn-lr|Labelled as [[Las Vegas]] in promotional material.}} | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Allegiant Stadium]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| 86,465 / 86,465 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| $25,784,512 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 27 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| August 30 |[[Santa Clara, California|Santa Clara]]{{efn-lr|Labelled as [[San Francisco]] in promotional material.}} | [[Levi's Stadium]] | 49,613 / 49,613 | $15,402,846 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;| September 1{{efn|Originally scheduled to take place on September 3, 2023, it was rescheduled for logistic reasons.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.redlandsdailyfacts.com/2023/02/06/beyonce-changes-a-show-date-for-the-renaissance-tour-at-sofi-stadium/|title=Beyoncé changes a show date for the Renaissance Tour at SoFi Stadium|work=[[Redlands Daily Facts]]|first=Kelly|last=Skye-Fadroski|date=February 6, 2023|access-date=February 8, 2023|archive-date=February 7, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230207134925/https://www.redlandsdailyfacts.com/2023/02/06/beyonce-changes-a-show-date-for-the-renaissance-tour-at-sofi-stadium/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} | rowspan=&quot;3&quot;| [[Inglewood, California|Inglewood]]{{efn-lr|Labelled as [[Los Angeles]] in promotional material.}} | rowspan=&quot;3&quot; | [[SoFi Stadium]] | rowspan=&quot;3&quot; | 155,567 / 155,567 | rowspan=&quot;3&quot; | $45,540,402 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| September 2 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| September 4 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| September 11 | [[Vancouver]] | Canada | [[BC Place]] | 38,342 / 38,342 | $7,923,348 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| September 14{{efn|Originally scheduled to take place on September 13, 2023, it was rescheduled for logistic reasons.}} | [[Seattle]] | rowspan=&quot;6&quot;| United States | [[Lumen Field]] | 56,763 / 56,763 | $12,459,518 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| September 21 | [[Arlington, Texas|Arlington]]{{efn-lr|Labelled as [[Dallas]] in promotional material.}} | [[AT&amp;T Stadium]] | 52,953 / 52,953 | $13,849,491 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| September 23 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[Houston]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| [[NRG Stadium]] | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| 123,308 / 123,308 | rowspan=&quot;2&quot;| $31,332,332 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| September 24 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| September 27 | [[New Orleans]] | [[Caesars Superdome]] | 49,265 / 49,265 | $10,802,708 |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center&quot;| October 1{{efn|Originally scheduled to take place on September 18, 2023, it was rescheduled for logistic reasons.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|date=2023-07-05|title=Beyoncé's Renaissance World Tour stop in Kansas City delayed to Oct. 1|url=https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/beyonces-renaissance-world-tour-stop-in-kansas-city-delayed-to-oct-1|access-date=2023-07-05|website=KSHB 41 Kansas City News|language=en|archive-date=July 5, 2023|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230705134408/https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/beyonces-renaissance-world-tour-stop-in-kansas-city-delayed-to-oct-1|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} | [[Kansas City, Missouri|Kansas City]] | [[Arrowhead Stadium|GEHA Field at Arrowhead Stadium]] | 53,150 / 53,150 | $9,290,057 |- ! colspan=&quot;4&quot; | '''Total''' ! 2,776,853 / 2,776,853 (100%) !$579,879,268 |} == Canceled show == {| class=&quot;wikitable plainrowheaders&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |+List of 2023 canceled concert, showing date, city, country, venue and reason |- ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:12em;&quot; |Date (2023) ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:10em;&quot; |City ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:10em;&quot; |Country ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:16em;&quot; |Venue ! scope=&quot;col&quot; style=&quot;width:29.95em;&quot; |Reason ! scope=&quot;col&quot; class=&quot;unsortable&quot; |{{Abbr|Ref.|References}} |- ! scope=&quot;row&quot; style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot;|August 3 | [[Pittsburgh]] | United States | [[Acrisure Stadium]] | Logistic and production issues | &lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=5 July 2023 |title=Beyoncé Renaissance World Tour Pittsburgh Show Canceled |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-show-cancelled-in-pittsburgh/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://archive.today/20230705133544/https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/beyonce-renaissance-world-tour-show-canceled-in-pittsburgh/ |archive-date=5 July 2023 |access-date=5 July 2023 |website=CBS News}}&lt;/ref&gt; |} == Opening DJs == [[File:Anonymous-20231031201730.jpg|thumb|Faraway view of the stage, where a [[Rainbow flag (LGBT)#Variations|Progress Pride Flag]] was displayed before the show while the opening DJs performed their respective sets.|225x225px]] While the tour was not advertised with an official opening act, guest DJs occasionally performed sets before the start of the show in various cities. The selection was curated by the tour's creative director Andrew Makadsi, and was noted for its centering of figures from dance music and queer nightlife scenes.&lt;ref name=&quot;:21&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Gonzalez |first=Alex |date=2023-12-18 |title=The Queer Artists That Helped Shape Beyonce's 'Renaissance' Tour |url=https://uproxx.com/music/beyonce-renaissance-tour-queer-artists/ |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231218174614/https://uproxx.com/music/beyonce-renaissance-tour-queer-artists/ |archive-date=2023-12-18 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=Uproxx |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:26&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Cuby |first=Michael |date=2023-10-02 |title=My Rapturous Queer Summers With Beyoncé's 'Renaissance' |url=https://www.them.us/story/beyonce-renaissance-tour-retrospective |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231002232115/https://www.them.us/story/beyonce-renaissance-tour-retrospective |archive-date=2023-10-02 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=[[Them (website)|Them]] |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; The opening surprise guest appearances included:&lt;ref name=&quot;:25&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:26&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Ihaza |first=Jeff |date=2023-06-09 |title=Fresh From Opening For Beyoncé, Nia Archives Delivers A Summer Banger With 'Off Wiv Ya Headz' |url=https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/nia-archives-interview-off-wiv-ya-headz-1234767693/ |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230609162648/https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/nia-archives-interview-off-wiv-ya-headz-1234767693/ |archive-date=2023-06-09 |access-date=2024-01-03 |magazine=Rolling Stone |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Bloom |first=Madison |date=Jun 9, 2023 |title=Watch Arca DJ Beyoncé's Renaissance World Tour Stop in Barcelona |url=https://pitchfork.com/news/watch-arca-dj-beyonces-renaissance-tour-stop-in-barcelona/amp/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230616052229/https://pitchfork.com/news/watch-arca-dj-beyonces-renaissance-tour-stop-in-barcelona/amp/ |archive-date=June 16, 2023 |access-date=June 28, 2023 |website=Pitchfork}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Julious |first=Britt |date=2023-12-20 |title=Chicagoan of the Year for Pop Music: DJ and musician Ariel Zetina always has her hometown in mind |url=https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-pop-music-chicagoan-year-2023-20231220-bpli6qyjsnbrnpzahfoamjl5ce-story.html |url-access=subscription |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231220114325/https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-pop-music-chicagoan-year-2023-20231220-bpli6qyjsnbrnpzahfoamjl5ce-story.html |archive-date=2023-12-20 |access-date=2024-01-04 |website=[[Chicago Tribune]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Kuperinsky |first=Amy |date=27 Jul 2023 |title=As Beyoncé's Renaissance tour lands in N.J., meet the Jersey artists behind the music |url=https://www.nj.com/entertainment/2023/07/as-beyonces-renaissance-tour-lands-in-nj-meet-the-jersey-artists-behind-the-music.html?outputType=amp |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230804031508/https://www.nj.com/entertainment/2023/07/as-beyonces-renaissance-tour-lands-in-nj-meet-the-jersey-artists-behind-the-music.html?outputType=amp |archive-date=August 4, 2023 |access-date=August 4, 2023 |website=[[NJ.com]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-10-02 |title=Pump The Beat: DJs of The Renaissance World Tour |url=https://tenzmag.com/pump-beat-djs-renaissance-world-tour/ |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231005083801/https://tenzmag.com/pump-beat-djs-renaissance-world-tour/ |archive-date=2023-10-05 |access-date=2023-10-06 |website=TENz Magazine |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; {{div col begin}} * [[Nia Archives]] &lt;small&gt;(May 25, 2023, in London)&lt;/small&gt; * [[Shygirl]] &lt;small&gt;(June 4, 2023, in London)&lt;/small&gt; * [[Arca (musician)|Arca]] &lt;small&gt;(June 8, 2023, in Barcelona)&lt;/small&gt; * [[Lsdxoxo|LSDXOXO]] &lt;small&gt;(June 21 in Hamburg and June 23, 2023, in Frankfurt)&lt;/small&gt; * Ace Dillinger &lt;small&gt;(July 8, 2023, in Toronto)&lt;/small&gt; * Karim Olen Ash &lt;small&gt;(July 9, 2023, in Toronto)&lt;/small&gt; * KIA &lt;small&gt;(July 12, 2023, in Philadelphia)&lt;/small&gt; * Tory Stilleto &lt;small&gt;(July 15, 2023, in Nashville)&lt;/small&gt; * Dee Digs &lt;small&gt;(July 20, 2023, in Minneapolis)&lt;/small&gt; * Ariel Zetina &lt;small&gt;(July 22, 2023, in Chicago)&lt;/small&gt; * Shaun J. Wright &lt;small&gt;(July 23, 2023, in Chicago)&lt;/small&gt; * Mike Servito &lt;small&gt;(July 26, 2023, in Detroit)&lt;/small&gt; * [[MikeQ|DJ MikeQ]] &lt;small&gt;(July 29, 2023, in East Rutherford)&lt;/small&gt; * Sekucci and Sterling Juan Diaz &lt;small&gt;(July 30, 2023, in East Rutherford)&lt;/small&gt; * DJ br0nz3_g0dd3ss &lt;small&gt;(August 1, 2023, in Foxborough)&lt;/small&gt; * Byrell the Great &lt;small&gt;(August 5, 2023, in Landover)&lt;/small&gt; * Shane Thomas &lt;small&gt;(August 9, 2023, in Charlotte)&lt;/small&gt; * The Carry Nation &lt;small&gt;(August 11, 2023, in Atlanta)&lt;/small&gt; * Leonce &lt;small&gt;(August 12, 2023, in Atlanta)&lt;/small&gt; * Ash Lauryn &lt;small&gt;(August 14, 2023, in Atlanta)&lt;/small&gt; * DJ GAY-Z &lt;small&gt;(August 18, 2023, in Miami Gardens)&lt;/small&gt; * Rush Davis &lt;small&gt;(August 21, 2023, in St. Louis)&lt;/small&gt; * [[Memphy]] &lt;small&gt;(August 24, 2023, in Glendale)&lt;/small&gt; * MEZ &lt;small&gt;(August 26 and 27, 2023, in Paradise)&lt;/small&gt; * [[Shaun Ross (model)|Shaun Ross]] &lt;small&gt;(August 30, 2023, in Santa Clara)&lt;/small&gt; * [[DJ Khaled]] &lt;small&gt;(September 1 and 2, 2023, in Inglewood)&lt;/small&gt; * [[Kaytranada]] &lt;small&gt;(September 4, 2023 in Inglewood)&lt;/small&gt; * [[UNIIQU3]] &lt;small&gt;(September 11, 2023, in Vancouver)&lt;/small&gt; * Chris Cruse &lt;small&gt;(September 14, 2023, in Seattle)&lt;/small&gt; * Sex Shop Boys &lt;small&gt;(September 21, 2023, in Arlington)&lt;/small&gt; * River Moon and [[Goth Jafar]] &lt;small&gt;(September 23, 2023 in Houston)&lt;/small&gt; * Mister Wallace &lt;small&gt;(September 24, 2023, in Houston)&lt;/small&gt; * Dangerous Rose &lt;small&gt;(September 27, 2023 in New Orleans)&lt;/small&gt; * Andrew Makadsi &lt;small&gt;(October 1, 2023, in Kansas City)&lt;/small&gt; {{div col end}} ==Notes== ;Cities {{Notelist-lr|3}} ;Others {{Notelist}} ==References== {{Reflist}} == External links == {{Commons}} *[https://music.beyonce.com Official website] {{Beyoncé}} [[Category:2023 concert tours]] [[Category:Beyoncé concert tours]] [[Category:Concert tours of Belgium]] [[Category:Concert tours of Canada]] [[Category:Concert tours of France]] [[Category:Concert tours of Germany]] [[Category:Concert tours of Poland]] [[Category:Concert tours of Spain]] [[Category:Concert tours of Sweden]] [[Category:Concert tours of the Netherlands]] [[Category:Concert tours of the United Kingdom]] [[Category:Concert tours of the United States]] [[Category:All-stadium concert tours]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kassia_Sule&diff=1259238223</id> <title>Kassia Sule</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kassia_Sule&diff=1259238223"/> <updated>2024-11-24T03:18:41Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Nigerian entrepreneur and reality TV star (born 1993)}} {{infobox person | name = Kassia Sule | image = | caption = Kassia in 2024 | other names = Kassia Sule | birth_name = Kassia Uyoyou Ubini | birth_date = {{birth date and age|1993|11|03|mf=y}} | birth_place = [[Delta State]], Nigeria | occupation = {{hlist|Entrepreneur|Influencer|Actress}} | known_for = Housemate of [[Big Brother Naija season 9|BBNS9]] | television = ''[[Big Brother Naija]]'' | spouse = {{marriage|[[Kellyrae]]|2024}} | children = 1 | mother = | father = | years_active = 2024{{ndash}}present }} '''Kassia Uyoyou Ubini Sule'''&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Blessing |first=Enenaite |date=2024-09-30 |title=&quot;Onyeka pretends to be happy&quot;: Kellyrae finally opens up on marriage to Kassia |url=https://www.legit.ng/entertainment/celebrities/1615204-bbnaija-kellyrae-opens-up-about-his-marriage-to-kassia-video-excites-fans/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Legit.ng - Nigeria news. |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; ([[née]] '''Ubini'''; born on 3 November 1993) is a Nigerian [[entrepreneur]], actress and TV personality&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Ladun |date=2024-09-08 |title=Kassia (BBNaija): Biography, Networth, Age and Career |url=https://ladunliadinews.com/kassia-bbnaija-biography-networth-age-and-career/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Ladun Liadi's Blog |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;. She gained prominence as a housemate in [[Big Brother Naija season 9]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Kassia, Topher, Ocee evicted from #BBNaija |url=https://www.nigerianeye.com/2024/09/kassia-evicted-from-bbnaija.html |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Nigerian News, Latest Nigeria In News. Nigeria News. Your online Nigerian Newspaper. |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Kassia |url=https://www.dstv.com/africamagic/en-za/show/big-brother-naija/season/9/housemates/kassia/op_profile_collection |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Africa Magic - Kassia |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=DoubleKay |url=https://www.dstv.com/africamagic/en-ng/show/big-brother-naija/season/9/housemates/doublekay/op_profile_collection |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Africa Magic - DoubleKay |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Early life== Kassia was born November 3, 1993 at [[Delta State]], Nigeria; she is from Isoko tribe and was raised by Christian family &lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Candace |date=2024-08-13 |title=Kassia Sule Age, Biography, Marriage, Profession, |url=https://ghsplash.com.gh/kassia-sule-iography/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;. She completed her primary and secondary education in Delta State before proceeding to Delta State Polytechnic, where she earned a degree in Office Management and Technology&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=press_admin |date=2024-08-23 |title=Education profile of Kassia Sule(BBNaija) |url=https://presspay.ng/news/education-profile-of-kassia-sulebbnaija/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=PressPayNg Blog |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Her educational background laid the foundation for her entrepreneurial endeavors and professional pursuits&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=lagosloadedngn |date=2024-09-17 |title=Kassia Bbn Biography: Parent, Age, Husband, Career &amp; More In 2024 |url=https://lagosloaded.com.ng/kassia-bbn-biography/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Lagosloaded |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-08-04 |title=Kassia Bbn Biography, Age, Real Husband 2024 - Lanzytech |url=https://lanzytech.com.ng/kassia-bbn-biography/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;. == Career == Kassia is a dedicated entrepreneur who founded her haircare brand, Kayxtra Botanical, which specializes in producing and distributing natural hair care products&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-11-03 |title=Kellyrae and Kassia (DoubleKay) Cars and Net Worth » Carmart blog |url=https://carmart.ng/kellyrae-and-kassia-cars-and-net-worth/?srsltid=AfmBOoq1DtpAZ-CvnZc5OAks262weNC699sxR4WoyU3RX2ozi-6zkUjs |access-date=2024-11-23 |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;. The inspiration behind this venture came from her personal struggles with using ineffective hair care products. Her goal is to create products that address common hair issues like scalp failure and hair damage&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Ladun |date=2024-09-08 |title=Kassia (BBNaija): Biography, Networth, Age and Career |url=https://ladunliadinews.com/kassia-bbnaija-biography-networth-age-and-career/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Ladun Liadi's Blog |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;. === Big Brother Naija === Kassia, alongside her husband [[Kellyrae]], entered the 9th season of Big Brother Naija as &quot;Double Kay&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Nigeria |first=Guardian |date=2024-07-29 |title=Married Couple, Kassia and Kellyrae, Enter BBNaija As &quot;Best Friends&quot; |url=https://guardian.ng/life/married-couple-kassia-and-kellyrae-enter-big-brother-naija-as-best-friends/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=The Guardian Nigeria News - Nigeria and World News |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=BellaNaija.com |date=2024-08-24 |title=DoubleKay’s Love Story is Pure Couple Vibes – Just Look at These Photos {{!}} Life Before #BBNaija |url=https://www.bellanaija.com/2024/08/life-before-bbnaija-doublekay/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=BellaNaija |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;. After being unpaired, Kassia was evicted the last week before the finale, day 63&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Itodo |first=Sunny Green |date=2024-10-02 |title=BBNaija S9: 'My family not happy about it' - Kassia speaks on management's decision to favour husband |url=https://dailypost.ng/2024/10/02/bbnaija-s9-my-family-not-happy-about-it-kassia-speaks-on-managements-decision-to-favour-husband/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Daily Post Nigeria |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=NWOKWU |first=RUTH |last2=Abdulrahman |first2=Nafisat |date=2024-09-29 |title=BBNaija 9: HoH Kellyrae's Wife Kasia Evicted From House |url=https://leadership.ng/bbnaija-9-hoh-kellyraes-wife-kasia-evicted-from-house/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-09-29 |title=Kassia evicted from BBNaija season 9 |url=https://www.chronicle.ng/news/kassia-evict-from-bbnaija-season-9/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=www.chronicle.ng |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;. == Personal life == Kassia is officially married to Kingsley Sule, professionally known as [[Kellyrae]] after ten years together&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Akhimien |first=Nosakhale |date=2024-10-13 |title=How I met my wife, Kassia — BBN season 9 winner, Kellyrae |url=https://www.premiumtimesng.com/entertainment/naija-fashion/744780-how-i-met-my-wife-kassia-bbn-season-9-winner-kellyrae.html |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Premium Times Nigeria |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Blessing |first=Enenaite |date=2024-09-30 |title=&quot;Onyeka pretends to be happy&quot;: Kellyrae finally opens up on marriage to Kassia |url=https://www.legit.ng/entertainment/celebrities/1615204-bbnaija-kellyrae-opens-up-about-his-marriage-to-kassia-video-excites-fans/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Legit.ng - Nigeria news. |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;. == Filmography == === Television === {| class=&quot;wikitable sortable&quot; |- !Year !Title !Role !Notes |- |2024 | ''[[Big Brother Naija season 9]]''&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Itodo |first=Sunny Green |date=2024-10-02 |title=BBNaija S9: 'My family not happy about it' - Kassia speaks on management's decision to favour husband |url=https://dailypost.ng/2024/10/02/bbnaija-s9-my-family-not-happy-about-it-kassia-speaks-on-managements-decision-to-favour-husband/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Daily Post Nigeria |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; | Contestant | ''9th Place''&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-09-29 |title=Kassia evicted from BBNaija season 9 |url=https://www.chronicle.ng/news/kassia-evict-from-bbnaija-season-9/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=www.chronicle.ng |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; |} ==References== {{reflist}} == External links == * {{Instagram|kassia_kx|Kassia Sule}} * {{TikTok|kayxtra_botanical_|Kassia Sule}} {{DEFAULTSORT: Kassia, Sule}} [[Category:1993 births]] [[Category:living people]] [[Category: Participants in Nigerian reality television series]] [[Category:People from Delta State]] [[Category:Big Brother (franchise) contestants]] [[Category:21st-century Nigerian businesspeople]] [[Category:Nigerian women in business]] [[Category:21st-century Nigerian businesswomen]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1985_in_the_Soviet_Union&diff=1259238154</id> <title>1985 in the Soviet Union</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1985_in_the_Soviet_Union&diff=1259238154"/> <updated>2024-11-24T03:18:03Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{Year in the Soviet Union|1985}} The following lists events that happened during '''[[1985]] in the [[Soviet Union|Union of Soviet Socialist Republics]]'''. == Incumbents == * [[General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union]]: [[Mikhail Gorbachev]] * [[Premier of the Soviet Union]]: [[Nikolai Tikhonov]] * [[Chairman of the Russian SFSR]]: [[Vladimir Orlov (politician)|Vladimir Orlov]] == Events == '''April''' * The [[Soviet Union]] begins to transfer the burden of fighting the [[mujahideen]] to the armed forces of the [[Democratic Republic of Afghanistan]] '''May''' * May 9 - The 3rd total [[Victory Day]] Parade is [[1985 Moscow Victory Day Parade|held]] on Red Square in [[Moscow]] in the Soviet Union '''November''' * November 19 - [[Mikhail Gorbachev]] and [[Ronald Reagan]] meet for the first time in [[Geneva]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://ahf.nuclearmuseum.org/ahf/history/reagan-and-gorbachev-geneva-summit/|title=Reagan and Gorbachev: The Geneva Summit|accessdate=24 November 2024|publisher=Atomic Heritage Foundation}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Births == * April 25 - [[Vladimir Balynetc|Vladimir Balyntec]] - Russian powerlifter * November 28 - [[Evgeny Alekseev (chess player)|Evgeny Alekseev]] - Russian chess grandmaster == Deaths == * February 22 - [[Efrem Zimbalist]] - Russian-American violinist * March 10 - [[Konstantin Chernenko]] - Soviet politician * October 10 - [[Yul Brynner]] - Russian actor * October 14 - [[Emil Gilels]] - Soviet pianist == References == {{reflist}} {{Years in the Soviet Union}} {{Year in Europe|1985}} {{Year in Asia|1985}} [[Category:1985 in the Soviet Union| ]] [[Category:1980s in the Soviet Union]] [[Category:1985 in Europe|Soviet Union]] [[Category:1985 in Asia|Soviet Union]] [[Category:1985 by country|Soviet Union]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Khosi_Twala&diff=1259238119</id> <title>Khosi Twala</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Khosi_Twala&diff=1259238119"/> <updated>2024-11-24T03:17:41Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{Short description|South African journalist and TV personality}} {{infobox person | name = Khosi Twala | image = | caption = | other names = | birth_name = Makhosazana Twala | birth_date = {{birth date and age|1997|08|10|mf=y}} | birth_place = [[KwaZulu Natal]], South Africa | occupation = {{hlist|Entrepreneur|Model|Influencer|Journalist}} | known_for = Winner of the [[Big Brother Titans]] season 1 | television = ''[[Big Brother Titans]]'' }} '''Makhosaza Twala''' (born 10 August 1997) popularly known as '''Khosi Twala''', is a [[South Africa]] entrepreneur, journalist, [[model (person)|model]], TV personality and influencer.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=admin |date=2024-10-04 |title=Khosi Twala: From BB Titans Winner to Rising South African Star |url=https://fakaza2018.co.za/khosi-twala-from-bb-titans-winner-to-rising-south-african-star/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Fakaza |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;He is the winner of [[Big Brother Titans]] Season 1&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Abulude |first=Samuel |date=2023-04-02 |title=Khosi Wins Big Brother Titans, $100,000 Richer |url=https://leadership.ng/breaking-khosi-twala-wins-100k-big-brother-titans-grand-prize/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Selisho |first=Kaunda |date=2023-04-04 |title='King Khosi': South African takes home the Big Brother Titans crown |url=https://www.citizen.co.za/entertainment/tv/king-khosi-big-brother-titans-winner-2023/amp/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=The Citizen |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;, being the first person ever to win the show.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Masuku |first=Brooklyn |date=2023-04-03 |title=Khosi Twala becomes the first winner of Big Brother Titans |url=https://gagasiworld.co.za/khosi-twala-becomes-the-first-winner-of-big-brother-titans/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Gagasi World |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Early life== Twala was born on 10 August 1997, at Newcastle KwaZulu Natal South Africa. Regarding her educational background, Twala attended Lincoln Heights Secondary School from 2011 to 2015.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |date=2020-06-01 |title=South African airline plan will raise old concerns |url=http://dx.doi.org/10.1108/oxan-es252957 |journal=Emerald Expert Briefings |doi=10.1108/oxan-es252957 |issn=2633-304X}}&lt;/ref&gt; She attended the University of the Free State in 2016 and subsequently enrolled at Oakfields College.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=admin |date=2024-10-04 |title=Khosi Twala: From BB Titans Winner to Rising South African Star |url=https://fakaza2018.co.za/khosi-twala-from-bb-titans-winner-to-rising-south-african-star/ |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=Fakaza |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Filmography == === Television === {| class=&quot;wikitable sortable&quot; |- !Year !Title !Role !Notes |- |2024 | ''[[Big Brother Naija season 9|Big Brother Titans]]'' Season 1 | Contestant | ''Won''&lt;ref&gt;{{Citation |last=Fox |first=Ragan |title=Life After Big Brother |date=2018-09-03 |work=Inside Reality TV |pages=125–138 |url=http://dx.doi.org/10.4324/9781315159638-6 |access-date=2024-11-23 |place=New York : Routledge, 2018. |publisher=Routledge |isbn=978-1-315-15963-8}}&lt;/ref&gt; |} ==References== {{DEFAULTSORT: Twala, Khosi }} [[Category:1997 births]] [[Category:living people]] [[Category:People from Delta State]] [[Category:Big Brother (franchise) contestants]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Xiao_Xiao&diff=1259238085</id> <title>Xiao Xiao</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Xiao_Xiao&diff=1259238085"/> <updated>2024-11-24T03:17:23Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm per ELNO <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Flash cartoon series}} {{More citations needed|date=July 2014}} {{Infobox television | alt = | genre = [[Action (fiction)#Action genre|Action]]&lt;br&gt;[[Black comedy|Dark humor]]&lt;br&gt;[[Surreal humour|Surreal humor]] | creator = [[Zhu Zhiqiang]] | developer = Zhu Zhiqiang | voices = Charlie Lehardy (#1)&lt;br&gt;Zhu Zhiqiang (#9) | theme_music_composer = | composer = Zhu Zhiqiang | country = [[People's Republic of China|China]] | language = Chinese&lt;br&gt;English | num_seasons = | num_episodes = 10 | list_episodes = | executive_producer = Zhu Zhiqiang | editor = | runtime = 1-2 minutes | company = XiaoXiao Movie.com | producer = | channel = [[Newgrounds]] | first_aired = {{start date|2001|4|19}} | last_aired = {{end date|2002|2|23}} | related = }} '''''Xiao Xiao''''' ({{zh|c=小小作品|p=Xiǎo Xiǎo Zuò Pǐn}}, {{lit.}} &quot;'''''Little Work'''''&quot;) is an [[Internet]] [[Flash cartoon]] series by [[China|Chinese]] [[animator]] [[Zhu Zhiqiang]], featuring [[stick figure]]s performing [[choreography|choreographed]] fight scenes. Some of the cartoons are [[Interactivity|interactive]] and game-like.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2009-02-25 |title=Games time forgot: Xiao Xiao |url=https://www.destructoid.com/games-time-forgot-xiao-xiao/ |access-date=2024-03-29 |website=Destructoid |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; All cartoons are in the [[Adobe Flash]] format, with the exception of Xiao Xiao #1, which was originally in [[Audio Video Interleave|AVI]] format and converted to Flash format. Others have seized on ''Xiao Xiao''{{'}}s popularity to make animations exploiting the easy-to-draw style of stick figures and minimalist backgrounds, often creating cartoons that are sequels or [[Parody|parodies]] of the official cartoons. == Synopsis == Xiao Xiao is placed in various dangerous situations to prove his [[martial arts]] prowess, often against other stick figures who appear more or less identical to himself. Usually, other stick figures are also black, but can be other colors, and Xiao Xiao's perpetual nemesis is the Boss, a purple stick figure who commands the enemy sticks and appears to be Xiao Xiao's only peer in ability. === Etymology === In [[Mandarin Chinese]]; &quot;''Xiao Xiao''&quot; is the [[Chinese character]] for &quot;small&quot; repeated twice. Here this [[reduplication]] connotes an affectionate diminutive, an equivalent might be the English expression &quot;itty bitty&quot; or &quot;lil' old&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Xiao Xiao |url=https://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-english-pinyin-dictionary.php?define=xiaoxiao}}&lt;/ref&gt; Each ''Xiao Xiao'' cartoon is given a Chinese title with the adjective &quot;Xiao Xiao&quot; preceding a descriptive noun phrase. Xiao Xiao #1 was originally titled &quot;Xiao Xiao Zuo Pin&quot;, which translates to &quot;A Little Bit of Creative Work&quot;. Over time, the term gradually shifted meaning from the series itself to the main character, an anonymous black stick figure. ==Episodes== {{Unreferenced section|date=August 2017}} * Xiao Xiao #1 is a simple fight between two stick-figure men, parodying the look of [[Hong Kong]] [[martial arts films]] by taking the level of violence in the fight to extremes. * Xiao Xiao #2 adds interactivity; the stickman (Xiao Xiao) faces a series of physical challenges, the outcomes of which depend on the player's timing. The game contains many features that would later become a staple of the Xiao Xiao series, including revamped animation and character design, most notably the introduction of the series' main antagonist, &quot;The Boss&quot; (although he is not referred to by name until Xiao Xiao #3), a magenta-colored [[crime boss]] who acts as the final challenge of the game via a [[Boss (video gaming)|boss fight]]. * Xiao Xiao #3 is a [[kung-fu]] style fight scene in a simple line-drawn building; Xiao Xiao faces off against a seemingly endless series of stick-man opponents (around forty enemies) using fast-paced martial arts moves; the simple background, two-dimensional movement, vanishing corpses, and regenerating enemies call to mind [[side-scrolling game]]s. The encounter ends in a final showdown between Xiao Xiao and a purple stick-man labeled &quot;Boss&quot; (another video game reference) in a fight that parodies multiple scenes from ''[[The Matrix]]'' (especially Xiao Xiao's last move, a slow-motion air kick which resembles that of [[Trinity (The Matrix)|Trinity]] at the beginning of the movie as well as using a sound clip straight from the movie). The visual theme of Xiao Xiao, a plain black stickman, fighting against a purple stick-man Boss, remains constant throughout the series. This is the best-known Xiao Xiao animation and has been shown on [[MTV]]{{Citation needed|date=November 2024}}. This Xiao Xiao is one of the more famous and thought of as the one hardest worked on and is noted to be one of &quot;the original stick fighting flash movies&quot; and sets the bar for the many stick flash movies. * Xiao Xiao #4 is an interactive first-person shooting game in the style of [[Virtua Cop]], casting the player as Xiao Xiao in the role of a [[Western (genre)|Western]]-style [[sheriff]] complete with cowboy hat and six-shooter. It ends with another scripted fight scene with the purple Boss (which parodies another scene from ''The Matrix''). * Xiao Xiao #5, billed as a &quot;''Battle to the death... and beyond''&quot;, returns to the two-dimensional fighting-game-reminiscent side-view style of #3. This time, Xiao Xiao and the Boss duel using various conventions from [[anime]] and [[manga]], exhibiting supernatural powers such as the use of [[magic (paranormal)|magic]] spells, the ability to pull weapons out of [[hammerspace]], and to continue their battle through [[Astral projection|astral travel]] after death. It is notable for its comedic ending, where an ambulance shows up in the middle of the fight, taking the two characters' dead bodies away. The two look at one another, and then both run after the ambulance. * Xiao Xiao #6 returns to Xiao Xiao #2's style, but this time with a bit more of a plot, forcing the player to button-mash Xiao-Xiao through a barroom brawl. * Xiao Xiao #7 and #8 are the most elaborate of the animations, forsaking the side-view of previous Xiao Xiaos for a fully three-dimensional, cinematic camera view throughout. Once again riffing on films like ''The Matrix'', they depict Xiao Xiao's infiltration of the Boss's mansion and his pursuit after the Boss escapes. #8 ends with a &quot;''To Be Continued''&quot; message and has yet to have a sequel, though given that the ending is a bit of an [[Anti-climax (narrative)|anticlimax]], and that two more flashes unrelated to this one came out after it, the message may have been ironic. * Xiao Xiao #9, a departure from the rest of the series, is a fully interactive &quot;[[Fighting game|beat em up]]&quot; game in the style of [[Final Fight]] and [[Streets of Rage]] where Xiao Xiao uses [[Guy (Final Fight)|Guy's]] moves. Rather than a plain, pen-and-ink background, the background is this time a full-color, realistic re-creation of a desk ostensibly intended to be Zhu's (the computer monitor has a screenshot of Xiao Xiao #3). As with other Xiao Xiaos and the original &quot;beat-em-ups&quot; that helped inspire them, Xiao Xiao must fight through a series of purple stick-thugs before confronting the Boss. * Xiao Xiao Beer Ad #1 appears to have been created by Zhu as a Chinese advertisement for [[Heineken]] beer. This one is one of the more recent movies and also is the first to feature eyes and facial expressions on the stick figures. The movie starts with odd coding lines moving down the screen in a style similar to the matrix, and then it zooms in on a Heineken Beer bottle. The scene then changes to the original black Xiao Xiao holding a Heineken Beer Bottle and a bo-staff. Suddenly, some enemy stick figures appear and try to steal his beer. Xiao Xiao fights them off with his staff in an action-packed fight scene, while keeping the bottle safe. After the second to last grunt falls, one last one appears and attempts to shoot him with a [[pistol]]. Xiao Xiao proceeds to skillfully dodge the bullets and then strike the ground with his staff, causing a massive crevice to crack open in the earth and the foe falls right in. The movie ends with Xiao Xiao holding up the bottle and smiling, then it shifts to a Heineken advertisement saying, &quot;Get Connected, Heineken.&quot; * Xiao Xiao Beer Ad #2 is the sequel to Xiao Xiao Beer Ad #1 and uses the same style, as well as picks up immediately where the last one left off. It also appears to be a Chinese Heineken Beer advertisement as well. After the one enemy stick figure falls into the crevice, he then jumps out, hinting that he must be the Boss. This one then proceeds to create physical doubles of himself in a manner similar to [[Naruto Uzumaki|Naruto's]] [[Jutsu (Naruto)#Shadow Clone Technique|Shadow Clone]]. The stick figure and his doubles then charge toward Xiao Xiao. He then fights off the enemy stick figures with his staff and slays every last one of them. After the last one is defeated, a car drives by him. Xiao Xiao scratches the side of the car with his staff. A stick figure then emerges from the back door, and he slams him down immediately. After that, Xiao Xiao proceeds to drop the staff and fly into the air, Superman style and then lands on top of a giant Heineken Beer bottle. At the end, the scene once again shifts to a Heineken advertisement saying, &quot;Get Connected, Heineken,&quot; but with Xiao Xiao standing heroically on top of the bottle. * Xiao Xiao Cityplaza or Xiao Xiao: Mall Brawl appears to have been created by Zhu as an advertisement for the [[Cityplaza|CityPlaza]] [[shopping mall|mall]] in [[Hong Kong]]; it is an altered version of Xiao Xiao #3 wherein the main character/hero is a red stickman (to match the CityPlaza logo) and the background has been embellished to make it resemble the inside of a shopping mall. The original black Xiao Xiao makes a cameo appearance for a short while. He is in the background and doesn't fight but simply rides past on a pair of ice skates. A scene from Xiao Xiao #3 is also playing on the TV during the fight. Contrary to popular belief, Xiao Xiao was not initially aired on [[MTV]], but on the website [[Newgrounds]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Xiao Xiao |url=https://www.newgrounds.com/series/xiao-xiao |access-date=2024-08-14 |website=Newgrounds.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Characters == * Xiao Xiao is the protagonist of the series. He is a martial arts expert, as well as an elite assassin. His skills are unmatched, and the only person who comes close is the Boss. * Bad Boss is another martial artist and appears to be some sort of gang leader and the main antagonist of the series. He is the only one who can give Xiao Xiao a decent fight and has been beaten by Xiao Xiao on multiple occasions. His name is a reference to most video games, in which a very difficult character near the end is called a boss. The Boss usually appears in [[magenta]]. * The gangs: Various-colored stick figures who are beaten down by Xiao in a matter of seconds. ==Legal dispute== In June 2004, Zhu filed a lawsuit against [[Nike, Inc.|Nike]] for plagiarizing his cartoon stickmen in their commercials. Nike's representatives denied the accusations, claiming that the stickman figure lacks originality, and is public domain. Zhu eventually won the [[lawsuit]], claiming his copyright on his style and not the stickman,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/149676/2|title=Xiao Xiao Lawsuit??|author=|date=|website=Newgrounds.com|access-date=1 August 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; and Nike was ordered to pay $36,000 to the [[cartoonist]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Nike&quot;&gt;[http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room/room/view_article.asp?name=../articles/Nike%20losses.htm Nike loses &quot;Stickman&quot; case but decides to appeal...] {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20051025101045/http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room/room/view_article.asp?name=..%2Farticles%2FNike%20losses.htm |date=October 25, 2005 }}, Lawdit Solicitors&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20051122080419/http://www.ipfrontline.com/printtemplate.asp?id=2082 Can a &quot;Stickman&quot; be original? A Chinese court thinks so...] - News article, Wednesday, February 9, 2005, ipFrontline&lt;/ref&gt; Nike stated it would appeal the suit in the [[Beijing High People's Court]].&lt;ref name=&quot;XinHua&quot;&gt;XinHua http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-07/16/content_1604987.htm {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20061128234301/http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-07/16/content_1604987.htm |date=2006-11-28 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Nike&quot;/&gt; Nike won the appeal in 2006, with the judge saying in the paper that the Nike stickman design was different than Zhu's stickman design. After winning the suit, Nike stated &quot;This was never a commercial issue for us. It was a matter of principle.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|date=2006-06-17|title=Beijing court rules in favor of Nike in animation lawsuit - Taipei Times|url=https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/worldbiz/archives/2006/06/17/2003314101|access-date=2022-02-21|website=www.taipeitimes.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==References== {{reflist}} ==External links== * [http://www.newgrounds.com/collections/xiao.html Xiao Xiao collection] on [[Newgrounds]] * [http://zhu.newgrounds.com/ Zhu at Newgrounds] * [http://www.stickpage.com/xiaoxiaoseries.shtml Xiao Xiao collection] on [[Stickpage]] {{Newgrounds|state=expanded}} {{portal bar|Animation|China|Internet}} {{Authority control}} [[Category:2001 web series debuts]] [[Category:2002 web series endings]] [[Category:Chinese animated web series]] [[Category:Browser-based game websites]] [[Category:Chinese adult animated action television series]] [[Category:Flash animated web series]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_fictional_computers&diff=1259237916</id> <title>List of fictional computers</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_fictional_computers&diff=1259237916"/> <updated>2024-11-24T03:16:03Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{Short description|None}} {{Use dmy dates|date=May 2021}} {{more footnotes needed|date=February 2023}} {{Dynamic list}} [[File:010413-021 CPS (8643966018).jpg|thumb|right|A fictional computer from the [[Tardis]] in the ''[[Doctor Who]]'' television series.]] [[Computer]]s have often been used as fictional objects in [[literature]], [[film|movie]]s and in other forms of [[Mass media|media]]. Fictional computers may be depicted as considerably more sophisticated than anything yet devised in the real world. Fictional computers may be referred to with a made-up manufacturer's brand name and model number or a nickname. This is a list of computers or '''fictional artificial intelligences''' that have appeared in notable works of [[fiction]]. The work may be about the computer, or the computer may be an important element of the story. Only static computers are included. [[Robot]]s and other fictional computers that are described as existing in a mobile or humanlike form are discussed in a separate [[list of fictional robots and androids]]. ==Literature== ===Before 1950=== * '''[[The Engine]]''', a kind of mechanical information generator featured in [[Jonathan Swift]]'s ''[[Gulliver's Travels]]''. This is considered to be the first description of a fictional device that in any way resembles a computer.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |first=Eric A. |last=Weiss |title=Jonathan Swift's Computing Invention |url=https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4640396 |quote=In 1726 Jonathan Swift published a description of a wonderful machine, made of equal parts of ... |work=[[IEEE]] |year=1985 |volume=7 |issue=2 |pages=164–165 |access-date=2010-01-26 |doi=10.1109/MAHC.1985.10017 }}&lt;/ref&gt; (1726) * '''The Machine''' from [[E. M. Forster]]'s short story &quot;[[The Machine Stops]]&quot; (1909) * '''The Brain''' from [[Lionel Britton]]’s ''Brain: A Play of the Whole Earth'' (1930). * '''The Government Machine''' from [[Miles J. Breuer]]'s short story &quot;Mechanocracy&quot; (1932). * '''The Brain''' from [[Laurence Manning]]'s novel ''[[The Man Who Awoke]]'' (1933). * '''The Machine City''' from [[John W. Campbell]]'s short story &quot;[[Twilight (Campbell short story)|Twilight]]&quot; (1934). * '''The Mechanical Brain''' from [[Edgar Rice Burroughs]]'s ''[[Swords of Mars]]'' (1934). * The ship's navigation computer in &quot;[[Misfit (short story)|Misfit]]&quot;, a short story by [[Robert A. Heinlein]] (1939) * '''The Games Machine''', a vastly powerful computer that plays a major role in [[A. E. van Vogt]]'s ''[[The World of Null-A]]'' (serialized in ''[[Astounding Science Fiction]]'' in 1945) * '''The Brain''', a supercomputer with a childish, human-like personality appearing in the short story &quot;[[Escape!]]&quot; by [[Isaac Asimov]] (1945) * '''Joe''', a &quot;logic&quot; (that is to say, a personal computer) in [[Murray Leinster]]'s short story &quot;[[A Logic Named Joe]]&quot; (1946) ===1950s=== * '''The Machines''', positronic supercomputers that manage the world in Isaac Asimov's short story &quot;[[The Evitable Conflict]]&quot; (1950) * '''MARAX''' (MAchina RAtiocinatriX), the spaceship ''Kosmokrator''{{'}}s AI in [[Stanisław Lem]]'s novel ''[[The Astronauts]]'' (1951) * '''EPICAC''', in [[Kurt Vonnegut]]'s ''[[Player Piano (novel)|Player Piano]]'' and other of his writings, EPICAC coordinates the United States economy. Named similarly to [[ENIAC]], its name also resembles that of '[[ipecac]]', a plant-based preparation that was used in over-the-counter poison-antidote [[Syrup of ipecac|syrups]] for its [[emetic]] (vomiting-inducing) properties. (1952) * '''EMSIAC''', in [[Bernard Wolfe]]'s ''Limbo'', the war computer in World War III. (1952) * Vast anonymous computing machinery possessed by the Overlords, an alien race who administer Earth while the human population merges with the Overmind. Described in [[Arthur C. Clarke]]'s novel ''[[Childhood's End]]''. (1953) * '''The Prime Radiant''', [[Hari Seldon]]'s desktop on [[Trantor]] in ''[[Second Foundation]]'' by [[Isaac Asimov]] (1953) * '''Mark V''', a computer used by monks at a Tibetan lamasery to encode all the possible names of God which resulted in the end of the universe in [[Arthur C. Clarke]]'s short story &quot;[[The Nine Billion Names of God]]&quot; (1953) * '''Karl''', a computer (named for [[Carl von Clausewitz]]) built for analysis of military problems, in [[Arthur C. Clarke]]'s short story &quot;[[The Pacifist]]&quot; (1956) * '''Mima''', a thinking machine carrying the memories of all humanity, first appeared in [[Harry Martinson]]'s &quot;Sången om Doris och Mima&quot; (1953), later expanded into ''[[Aniara]]'' (1956) * '''Gold''', a &quot;supercalculator&quot; formed by the networking of all the computing machines on 96&amp;nbsp;billion planets, which answers the question &quot;Is there a God?&quot; with &quot;Yes, ''now'' there is a God&quot; in [[Fredric Brown]]'s single-page story &quot;Answer&quot; (1954) * '''Bossy''', the &quot;cybernetic brain&quot; in the [[Hugo award]]-winning novel ''[[They'd Rather Be Right]]'' (a.k.a. ''The Forever Machine'') by [[Mark Clifton]] and [[Frank Riley (author)|Frank Riley]] (1954) * '''The City Fathers''', emotionless computer bank educating and running the City of New York in [[James Blish]]'s ''[[Cities in Flight]]'' series. Their highest ethic was survival of the city and they could overrule humans in exceptional circumstances. (1955, sequels through 1962) * '''[[Multivac]]''', a series of supercomputers featured in a number of stories by [[Isaac Asimov]] (1955–1983) * '''The Central Computer''' of the city of Diaspar in [[Arthur C. Clarke]]'s ''[[The City and the Stars]]'' (1956) * '''Miniac''', the &quot;small&quot; computer in the book ''[[Danny Dunn]] and the Homework Machine'', written by Raymond Abrashkin and Jay Williams (1958) * '''Third Fleet-Army Force Brain''', a &quot;mythical&quot; thinking computer in the short story &quot;Graveyard of Dreams&quot;, written by [[H. Beam Piper]] (evolved into the computer &quot;Merlin&quot; in later versions of the story) (1958) * '''Microvac''', a future version of Multivac resembling a thick rod of metal the length of a spaceship appearing in ''[[The Last Question]]'', reputed to be one of Isaac Asimov's favorite stories. It appears in the book ''Nine Tomorrows'' (1959) * '''Galactic AC''', a future version of Microvac and Multivac in Isaac Asimov's ''[[The Last Question]]'' (1959) * '''Universal AC''', a future version of Galactic AC, Microvac, and Multivac in Isaac Asimov's ''[[The Last Question]]'' (1959) * '''Cosmic AC''', a very distant future version of Universal AC, Galactic AC, Multivac in [[Isaac Asimov]]'s short story ''[[The Last Question]]'' (The name is derived from &quot;Automatic Computer&quot;; see also AC's ancestor, [[Multivac]], and the contemporary [[UNIVAC]]) (1959) * '''AC''', the ultimate computer at the end of time in [[Isaac Asimov]]'s short story ''[[The Last Question]]'' (The name is derived from &quot;Automatic Computer&quot;; see also AC's ancestor, [[Multivac]], and the contemporary [[UNIVAC]]) (1959) ===1960s=== * '''Vulcan 2''' and '''Vulcan 3''', sentient supercomputers in [[Philip K. Dick]]'s novel ''[[Vulcan's Hammer]]'' (1960) * '''Great Coordinator''' or '''Robot-Regent''', a partially to fully sentient extraterrestrial supercomputer, built to control and drive the scientifically and technologically advanced Great Arconide Empire as the Arconides have become decadent and unable to govern themselves. From the science fiction series ''[[Perry Rhodan]]'' (1961) * '''Merlin''' from the [[H. Beam Piper]] novel ''The Cosmic Computer'' (originally ''Junkyard Planet'') (1963) * '''Simulacron-3''', the third generation of a virtual reality system originally depicted in the science fiction novel ''[[Simulacron-3]]'' (a.k.a. &quot;Counterfeit World&quot;) by [[Daniel F. Galouye]] (1964) and later in film adaptations ''[[World on a Wire]]'' (1973) and ''[[The Thirteenth Floor]]'' (1999) * '''GENiE''' (GEneralized Nonlinear Extrapolator), from the [[Keith Laumer]] novel ''[[The Great Time Machine Hoax]]'' (1964) * '''Muddlehead''', the sapient computer that runs the trade ship ''Muddlin' Through'' in [[Poul Anderson]]'s stories &quot;The Trouble Twisters&quot; (1965), &quot;Satan's World&quot; (1969), &quot;Day of Burning&quot; (1967), &quot;Lodestar&quot; (1973), and &quot;Mirkhiem&quot; (1977) * '''Colossus''' and '''Guardian''': Colossus is a military supercomputer built by Dr. Charles Forbin to control the nuclear weapons of the United States of North America. Colossus initiates communication with an equivalent computer in the Soviet Union, called Guardian, and the two computers eventually merge to take control of the human race. Colossus and Guardian first appeared in the novel ''[[Colossus (novel)|Colossus]]'', by [[Dennis Feltham Jones]] (1966) and the subsequent film, ''[[Colossus: The Forbin Project]]'' (1970). Colossus also appears in two subsequent novels by Jones, ''[[The Fall of Colossus]]'' (1974), where the supercomputer is finally defeated by vengeful humans, and ''[[Colossus and the Crab]]''. (1977) * '''Frost''', the protagonist computer in [[Roger Zelazny]]'s story &quot;[[For a Breath I Tarry]]&quot;; also '''SolCom''', '''DivCom''', and '''Beta''' (1966) * '''Mike''' (a.k.a. Mycroft Holmes, Michelle, Adam Selene), in [[Robert A. Heinlein]]'s ''[[The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress]]'' (named after [[Mycroft Holmes]], the brother of [[Sherlock Holmes]]) (1966) * '''The Ox''' in [[Frank Herbert]]'s novel ''[[Destination: Void]]'' (1966) * '''Supreme''', a computer filling the artificial world Primores in [[Lloyd Biggle, Jr.]]'s ''Watchers of the Dark'' (1966) * '''WESCAC''' (WESt Campus Analog Computer), from [[John Barth]]'s ''[[Giles Goat-Boy]]'' (1966) * '''The Brain''', the titular logistics computer of [[Len Deighton]]'s novel ''[[Billion-Dollar Brain]]'' (1966) * '''Moxon''', a series of supercomputers that manage &quot;the efficient society&quot; in [[Tor Åge Bringsværd]]'s short story &quot;Codemus&quot; (1967) * '''Little Brother''', a portable computer terminal similar in many ways to a modern [[smartphone]], also from Bringsværd's &quot;Codemus&quot; (1967) * '''AM''' (Allied Mastercomputer), from [[Harlan Ellison]]'s short story &quot;[[I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream]]&quot; (1967) * '''[[Berserker (Saberhagen)|The Berserkers]]''', autonomous machines that are programmed to destroy all life, as found in the stories of [[Fred Saberhagen]] (1967–2007) * '''The Soft Weapon''', a sophisticated hand-held battle computer once used by a spy, in [[Larry Niven]]'s short story &quot;[[The Soft Weapon]]&quot; (1967) * '''[[HAL 9000]]''', the sentient computer on board the spaceship ''[[Discovery One]]'', in [[Arthur C. Clarke]]'s novel ''[[2001: A Space Odyssey (novel)|2001: A Space Odyssey]]'' (1968) * '''Shalmaneser''', from [[John Brunner (novelist)|John Brunner]]'s ''[[Stand on Zanzibar]]'', a small (and possibly semi-sentient) supercomputer cooled in liquid helium (1968) * '''Tänkande August''' (Swedish for &quot;Thinking August&quot;), a.k.a. &quot;The Boss&quot;, a powerful computer for solving crime in the [[Agaton Sax]] books by Swedish author [[Nils-Olof Franzén]] * '''The Thinker''', a non-sentient supercomputer which has absolute control over all aspects human life, including a pre-ordained death age of 21. From the novel ''[[Logan's Run]]'' by [[William F. Nolan]] and [[George Clayton Johnson]] (1967) * '''Project 79''', from the novel ''[[The God Machine (1968 novel)|The God Machine]]'' by [[Martin Caidin]]. Set in the near future, the novel tells the story of Steve Rand, one of the brains behind Project 79, a top-secret US Government project dedicated to creating artificial intelligence. (1968) * '''ARDNEH''' (Automatic Restoration Director – National Executive Headquarters), from the [[Fred Saberhagen]]'s ''[[Empire of the East series]]'' (1968 onward) * '''Fess''', an antique FCC-series computer that can be plugged into various bodies, in [[Christopher Stasheff]]'s ''[[The Warlock in Spite of Himself]]'' (1969) ===1970s=== * '''UniComp''', the central computer governing all life on Earth in ''[[This Perfect Day]]'' by [[Ira Levin]] (1970) * '''T.E.N.C.H. 889B''', supercomputer aboard the ''Persus 9'' in ''[[A Maze of Death]]'' by [[Philip K. Dick]] (1970) * '''Maxine''', from the [[Roger Zelazny]] story &quot;My Lady of the Diodes&quot; (1970) * The '''Müller-Fokker computer tapes''', in ''[[The Muller-Fokker Effect]]'' by [[John Sladek]] (1970) * '''HARLIE''' (Human Aanalog Replication, Lethetic Intelligence Engine), protagonist of ''[[When HARLIE Was One]]'' by [[David Gerrold]] (1972). Also in the later ''When Harlie Was One, Release 2.0'' (1988) * '''TECT''', from [[George Alec Effinger]]'s various books. Note that there are several computers named TECT in his novels, even though they are unrelated stories. (1972-2002) * '''Dora''', starship computer in ''[[Time Enough for Love]]'' by [[Robert A. Heinlein]] (1973) * '''Minerva''', executive computer in ''[[Time Enough for Love]]'' by [[Robert A. Heinlein]] (1973) * '''Pallas Athena''', Tertius planetary computer in ''[[Time Enough for Love]]'' by [[Robert A. Heinlein]] (1973) * '''Proteus''', the highly intelligent computer in the novel ''[[Demon Seed (novel)|Demon Seed]]'' by [[Dean Koontz]] (1973) * '''Extro''', in [[Alfred Bester (author)|Alfred Bester]]'s novel ''[[The Computer Connection]]'' (1975) * '''FUCKUP''' (First Universal Cybernetic Kynetic Ultramicro-Programmer), from ''[[The Illuminatus! Trilogy]]'' by [[Robert Shea]] and [[Robert Anton Wilson]] (1975) * '''Murray''' (Multi-Unit Reactive Reasoning and Analysis Yoke), from ''[[The Starcrossed]]'' by [[Ben Bova]] (1975) * '''UNITRACK''', from ''[[The Manitou]]'' by [[Graham Masterton]] (1976) * '''Peerssa''', shipboard computer imprinted with the personality of a man of the same name, from ''[[A World Out of Time]]'' by [[Larry Niven]] (1976) * '''P-1''', a rogue AI which struggles to survive from ''[[The Adolescence of P-1]]'' by Thomas J. Ryan (1977) * '''Central Computer''', the benevolent computer in [[John Varley (author)|John Varley]]'s ''Eight Worlds'' novels and short stories (1977 to 1998) * '''Domino''', the portable communicator – and associated underground mega-computer – used by Laurent Michaelmas to run the world in [[Algis Budrys]]'s novel ''[[Michaelmas (novel)|Michaelmas]]'' (1977) &lt;!--* '''IMP''', in [[Joseph McElroy]]'s ''[[Plus (novel)|Plus]]'' (1976) IMP is not a computer, but some sort of space station, controlled by a human brain, known as Imp Plus, removed from a dying scientist: commented out in case this qualifies--&gt; * '''Obie''', an artificial intelligence with the ability to alter local regions of reality, in [[Jack L. Chalker]]'s ''[[Well World]]'' series (1977) * '''Well World''', the central computer responsible for &quot;simulating&quot; an entire new universe superimposed over the old Markovian one in [[Jack L. Chalker]]'s ''[[Well World]]'' series (1977) * '''Sigfrid von Shrink''', '''Albert Einstein''', and '''Polymat''', self-aware computer systems in [[Frederik Pohl]]'s ''[[Gateway (novel)|Gateway]]'' series, (starting in 1977) * '''TOTAL''', the vast military network in ''[[Up the Walls of the World]]'' by [[James Tiptree, Jr.]] (1978) * '''ZORAC''', the shipboard computer aboard the ancient spacecraft in ''The Gentle Giants of Ganymede'' and the related series by [[James P. Hogan (writer)|James P. Hogan]] (1978). Also in the same series is '''VISAR''' (the network that manages the daily affairs of the Giants) as well as '''JEVEX''', the main computer performing the same function for the offshoot human colony. * '''[[The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (fictional)|The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy]]''', the eponymous portable electronic travel guide/encyclopedia featured in [[Douglas Adams]]' sci-fi comedy series. It anticipates several later real-world technologies such as [[e-books]] and [[Wikipedia]]. * '''[[List of minor characters from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy#Deep Thought|Deep Thought]]''', the supercomputer charged with finding the answer to &quot;the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything&quot; in the science fiction comedy series ''[[The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy]]'' by Douglas Adams. Adaptations have included stage shows, a &quot;trilogy&quot; of five books published between 1979 and 1992, a sixth novel penned by Eoin Colfer in 2009, a 1981 TV series, a 1984 computer game, and three series of three-part comic book adaptations of the first three novels published by DC Comics between 1993 and 1996. * '''Earth''' and '''Earth 2.0''', the planet-sized supercomputer designed by the supercomputer Deep Thought in the science fiction series ''The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'' by Douglas Adams. Earth's task was to find what is the &quot;Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything.&quot; Earth 2.0 was created to replace the original Earth after it was destroyed by the Vogons.{{Citation needed|date=October 2019}} * '''[[List of minor characters from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy#Eddie|Eddie]]''', the shipboard computer on the starship ''Heart of Gold'', also in ''The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'' * '''Spartacus''', an AI deliberately designed to test the possibility of provoking hostile behavior towards humans, from [[James P. Hogan (writer)|James P. Hogan's]] book ''The Two Faces of Tomorrow'' (1979) *'''SUM''', the computer in ''[[Goat Song]]'' published February, 1972 by [[Poul Anderson]] in ''[[Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction]]'' * '''Zen''', The main computer aboard Liberator in ''[[Blake's 7]]''. * '''Slave''', Slave was built and programmed by Dorian and is the master computer of Dorian's ship, Scorpio in ''[[Blake's 7]]''. * '''Orac''', Orac is a portable super-computer capable of reading any other computer's data and built by an inventor named Ensor in ''[[Blake's 7]]''. ===1980s=== * '''[[AIVAS]]''' (Artificial Intelligence Voice Address System), from [[Anne McCaffrey]]'s ''[[Dragonriders of Pern]]'' books (1980s to present) * '''''[[Golem XIV]]''''', from [[Stanisław Lem]]'s novel of the same name (1981) * '''TECT''' (originally '''TECT in the name of the Representative'''), the world-ruling computer in [[George Alec Effinger]]'s novel ''The Wolves of Memory'' (1981) * '''VALIS''' (Vast Active Living Intelligence System), an alien orbital satellite around a Nixon-era earth, from the [[Philip K. Dick]] novel ''[[VALIS]]''. Only two novels out of an intended three-book trilogy were ever completed by the author (1981) * '''[[Minor characters from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy#Hactar|Hactar]]''', the computer that designed the cricket-ball-shaped doomsday bomb (that would destroy the universe) for the people of Krikkit, in [[Douglas Adams]]'s ''[[Life, the Universe and Everything]]'' (1982){{Citation needed|date=October 2019}} * '''Shirka''', the ''Odyssey''{{'}}s main computer in ''[[Ulysses 31]]'' (1981–1982) * '''SAL 9000''', the counterpart of [[HAL 9000]] in ''[[2010: Odyssey Two]]'' (1982) * '''Kendy''', the AI autopilot on board the seeder-ramship ''Discipline'' in the novels ''[[The Integral Trees]]'' and ''[[The Smoke Ring (novel)|The Smoke Ring]]'' by [[Larry Niven]] (Originally 1983) * '''BC''' (Big Computer) which is also possibly God, in [[John Varley (author)|John Varley]]'s ''[[Millennium (novel)|Millennium]]'' novel (1983) * '''(unnamed intelligence)''', in [[John Varley (author)|John Varley]]'s &quot;[[Press Enter]] _&quot;, an intelligence that has evolved on NSA's computer network * '''Apple Eve''', a fictional [[Apple, Inc.]], [[wordprocessing]]-oriented computer system in ''[[Warday]]'' (1984).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|title=Warday|first1=Whitley|last1=Strieber|first2=James|last2=Kunetka|page=430|year=1984}}&lt;/ref&gt; * '''Cyclops''' and '''Millichrome''', sentient computers built just before a series of disasters destroyed the American government and society in ''[[The Postman]]'' by [[David Brin]] (1984) * '''Loki 7281''', from [[Roger Zelazny]]'s short story by the same name, in which a home computer wants to take over the world (1984) * '''Neuromancer''' and '''Wintermute''', from [[William Gibson]]'s novel ''[[Neuromancer]]'' (1984) * '''Valentina''', the artificial intelligence in the novel ''Valentina: Soul in Sapphire'' by Joseph H. Delaney and Marc Stiegler (1984) * '''Teletraan I''', intelligent starship computer inside the Autobots' Ark spaceship that awakens the robot, from [[The Transformers (TV series)|Transformers]] animated television series, (1984) * ''' Edgar ''', from [[Steve Barron]]'s movie ''[[Electric Dreams (film)]] '' (1984) * '''[[Merlin (The Chronicles of Amber)#Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]]''', built by Merlin in [[Roger Zelazny]]'s ''[[Chronicles of Amber]]''. A computer with esoteric environmental requirements, designed to apply data-processing techniques to alternate realities called &quot;Shadows&quot; (1985) * '''Mandarax''' and '''Gokubi''', from [[Kurt Vonnegut]]'s novel ''[[Galápagos (novel)|Galápagos]]'' (1985) * '''Tokugawa''', from ''Cybernetic Samurai'' by [[Victor Milán]] (1985) * '''The City of Mind''', from [[Ursula K. Le Guin]]'s ''[[Always Coming Home]]'' * '''Com Pewter''', a character from [[Piers Anthony]]'s [[Xanth|Xanth series]]. First appearing in ''[[Golem in the Gears]]'' (1986 onward), it is a machine which can alter its local reality. * '''[[Jane (Ender's Game)|Jane]]''', from [[Orson Scott Card]]'s ''[[Ender's Game (series)|Ender's Game]]'' series, Ender's companion. She lives in the philotic network of the ansibles. (1986) * '''Master System''', in [[Jack L. Chalker]]'s ''The Rings of the Master'' series (1986–1988) * '''Fine Till You Came Along''' and other ship, hub and planetary '''[[Mind (The Culture)|Minds]]''', in [[Iain M. Banks]]' ''[[The Culture|Culture]]'' novels and stories (1987–2000) * '''The Quark II''', in [[Douglas Adams]]'s ''[[Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency]]'' (1987)&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|title=Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency|last=Adams|first=Douglas|publisher=Simon and Schuster|year=1987|isbn=978-1-4767-8299-7|location=New York|pages=85}}&lt;/ref&gt; * '''Abulafia''', Jacopo Belbo's computer in the novel ''[[Foucault's Pendulum]]'' by [[Umberto Eco]] (1988) * '''Arius''', from [[William T Quick]]'s novels ''Dreams of Flesh and Sand'', ''Dreams of Gods and Men'', and ''Singularities'' (1988 onward) * '''Continuity''', from [[William Gibson]]'s novel ''[[Mona Lisa Overdrive]]'' (1988) * '''GWB-666''', the &quot;Great Western Beast&quot; of [[Robert Anton Wilson]]'s ''[[Schrödinger's Cat Trilogy]]'' (1988) * '''Lord Margaret Lynn''', or &quot;Maggie&quot;, the AI extrapolative computer on Tocohl Susumo's trader ship in the novel ''Hellspark'', by [[Janet Kagan]] (1988) * '''The TechnoCore''', a band of AIs striving for the &quot;Ultimate Intelligence&quot;, in [[Dan Simmons]]' novel ''[[Hyperion (Simmons novel)|Hyperion]]'' (1989) * '''Eagle''', from [[Arthur C. Clarke]]'s ''[[Rendezvous with Rama|Rama]]'' series (1989) * '''LEVIN''' (Low Energy Variable Input Nanocomputer), from [[William Thomas Quick]]'s novels ''Dreams of Gods and Men'', and ''Singularities'' (1989) ===1990s=== * '''Thing''', a very small box shaped computer owned by the Nomes, from [[Terry Pratchett]]'s ''[[The Nome Trilogy]]'' (1990) * '''Grand Napoleon''', a [[Charles Babbage]]-style mechanical supercomputer from the [[alternate history (fiction)|alternate history]] novel ''[[The Difference Engine]]'' by [[William Gibson]] and [[Bruce Sterling]] (1990) * '''Yggdrasil''', a vastly intelligent AI which effectively runs the world, including many virtual environments and subordinate AIs, in [[Kim Newman]]'s ''The Night Mayor'' (1990) * '''Jill''', a computer reaching self-awareness in [[Greg Bear]]'s [[Queen of Angels (novel)|''Queen of Angels'' and ''Slant'']] novels (1990 and 1997) * '''Aleph''', the computer which not only operates a space station but also houses the personality of a human character whose body became malfunction, from the [[Tom Maddox]] novel ''Halo'' (1991) * '''Art Fish''', a.k.a. Dr. Fish, later fused with a human to become Markt, from [[Pat Cadigan]]'s novel ''Synners'' (1991) * '''[[Blaine the Mono]]''', from [[Stephen King]]'s ''[[The Dark Tower (series)|The Dark Tower]]'', a control system for the City of Lud and monorail service; also '''Little Blaine''' and '''Patricia''' (1991) * '''Center''', from [[S. M. Stirling]] and [[David Drake]]'s [[The General series]], an AI tasked to indirectly unite planet Bellevue and restore its civilization, with the eventual goal of restoration of FTL travel and of civilization to the collapsed interplanetary federation; also '''Sector Command and Control Unit AZ12-b14-c000 Mk. XIV''' and '''Center''' (1991) *'''Dahak''', from [[Mutineers' Moon|David Weber's Mutineer's Moon]] and its sequels, later republished inomnibus format [[Empire from the Ashes]]. * '''The Oversoul''', a supercomputer and satellite network from [[Orson Scott Card]]'s ''[[Homecoming Saga]]'', first introduced in ''[[The Memory of Earth]]'' (1992) * '''FLORANCE''', spontaneously generated AI from ''[[Doctor Who]]'' ''[[Virgin New Adventures]]'' (1992) * '''David''' and '''Jonathon''', from [[Arthur C. Clarke]]'s ''[[The Hammer of God (Clarke novel)|The Hammer of God]]'' (1993) * '''Central Operating System''', a building management system AI that kills two people who threaten its existence in ''[[Ghost_in_the_Machine_(The_X-Files)|Ghost in the Machine]]'', an episode of '''''[[The X-Files]]''''' (1993) * '''[[Hex (Discworld)|Hex]]''', from [[Terry Pratchett]]'s ''[[Discworld]]'' (1994) * '''Prime Intellect''', the computer controlling the universe in the Internet novel ''[[The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect]]'' by Roger Williams (1994) * '''FIDO''' (Foreign Intruder Defense Organism), a semi-organic droid defensive system first mentioned in ''[[Champions of the Force]]'', a ''[[Star Wars]]'' novel by [[Kevin J. Anderson]] (1994) * '''Abraham''', from [[Philip Kerr]]'s novel ''[[Gridiron (novel)|Gridiron]]'', is a superintelligent program designed to operate a large office building. Abraham is capable of improving his own code, and eventually kills humans and creates his own replacement &quot;Isaac&quot; (1995) * '''Helen''', sentient AI from [[Richard Powers]]' ''[[Galatea 2.2]]'' (1995) * '''Illustrated primer''', a book-like computer found at [[Neal Stephenson]]'s novel ''[[The Diamond Age]]'', which was first designed to aid a rich girl on her education, but gets lost, and instructs a poor Chinese girl named Nell. It has no proprietary AI inside, but learns about the user's circumstance, adapts, and creates characters that act accordingly with the user's surroundings. (1995) * '''Ozymandias''', a recurring artificial intelligence in [[Deathstalker (series)|''Deathstalker'' and its sequels]], by [[Simon R. Green]] (1995) * '''Ordinator''', the name used for any computer in the parallel universe occupied by Lyra in the novel ''[[Northern Lights (Pullman novel)|Northern Lights]]'' by [[Philip Pullman]] (1995) * '''Teleputer''', the replacement for television and computers that has on demand video via dial up internet from [[David Foster Wallace]]'s ''[[Infinite Jest]]'' (1996) * '''GRUMPY/SLEEPY''', psychic AI in the ''Doctor Who'' New Adventures novel ''[[Sleepy (novel)|Sleepy]]'' by [[Kate Orman]] (1996) * '''The Librarian''' from the novel [[Snow Crash]] by Neal Stephenson * '''Rei Toei''', an artificial singer from [[William Gibson]]'s novels ''[[Idoru]]'' and ''[[All Tomorrow's Parties (novel)|All Tomorrow's Parties]]'' (1996) * '''Titania''', a female computer providing the personality to the ''Starship Titanic'' from the [[Terry Jones]] novel ''[[Douglas Adams' Starship Titanic: A Novel]]'' (1997). * '''DOCTOR''', AI designed to duplicate the [[Doctor (Doctor Who)|Doctor]]'s reactions in the ''Doctor Who'' ''[[Eighth Doctor Adventures]]'' novel ''[[Seeing I]]'' by [[Kate Orman]] and [[Jonathan Blum (writer, born 1972)|Jon Blum]], eventually became an explorer with FLORANCE as its &quot;companion&quot; (1998) * '''TRANSLTR''', NSA supercomputer from [[Dan Brown]]'s ''[[Digital Fortress]]'' (1998) * '''ENIGMA''', short for Engine for the Neutralising of Information by the Generation of Miasmic Alphabets, an advanced cryptographic machine created by Leonard of Quirm, ''[[Discworld]]'' (1999) (compare with the actual [[Enigma machine]]) * '''Luminous''', from [[Greg Egan]]'s eponymous [[Luminous (short story)|short story]], is a computer that uses a diffraction grating created by lasers to diffract electrons and make calculations (1999) ===2000s=== * '''Stormbreaker''', a learning device containing a deadly virus from the [[Stormbreaker|book of the same name]] from [[Anthony Horowitz]]'s ''[[Alex Rider]]'' series (2001) * '''Gabriel''', an AI computer developed by Miyuki Nakano at [[University of the Ryukyus|Ryukyu University]] in [[James Rollins]]'s novel, ''[[Deep Fathom]]'' (2001) * '''Antrax''', an extremely powerful supercomputer built by ancient humans in the novel ''[[Antrax]]'' by [[Terry Brooks]] (2001) * '''[[Omnius]]''', the sentient computer overmind and ruler of the synchronized worlds in the ''[[Legends of Dune]]'' series, first appeared in ''[[Dune: The Butlerian Jihad]]'' by [[Brian Herbert]] and [[Kevin J. Anderson]] (2002) * '''Turing Hopper''', the artificial intelligence personality (AIP) turned cybersleuth in ''You've Got Murder'' and subsequent books of the mystery series by [[Donna Andrews (author)|Donna Andrews]] (2002) *'''[[F.R.I.D.A.Y.]]''' (Female Replacement Intelligent Digital Assistant Youth), an AI which serves as an ally to Tony Stark in the Marvel Comics * '''C Cube''', a small box-like super computer that can perform virtually any task, from playing a cassette to hacking through high level security measures. It was created by 12-year-old criminal mastermind [[Artemis Fowl II]] in the third book of the ''[[Artemis Fowl (series)|Artemis Fowl]]'' series, ''[[Artemis Fowl: The Eternity Code]]'' (2003) * The '''Logic Mill''', a fictional early–18th century computer designed by [[Gottfried Leibniz]] and partially implemented by main character Daniel Waterhouse in the historical fiction series ''[[The Baroque Cycle]]'' by [[Neal Stephenson]] (2004)&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title= Book Review: Birth of a System: The Baroque Cycle, by Neal Stephenson |work= The Harvard Law Record |last= Carbone |first= Marco |url= http://hlrecord.org/2004/12/book-review-birth-of-a-system-the-baroque-cycle-by-neal-stephenson/ |date= 2004-12-10 |access-date= 2017-02-21 }}&lt;/ref&gt; * '''Cohen''', a 400-year-old AI which manifests itself by 'shunting' through people. It is featured in the novels ''Spin State'' and ''Spin Control'' by [[Chris Moriarty]] (2005) *'''Sentient Intelligence''', the SI (Sentient Intelligence) in [[Peter F. Hamilton]]'s ''[[Commonwealth Saga]]'' (2005) * '''Deep Winter''' and '''Endless Summer''', the AIs in charge of the secret Human planet of Onyx. Endless Summer comes into service after Deep Winter died/expired in ''[[Halo: Ghosts of Onyx]]'' (2006) * '''The Daemon''', a distributed, persistent computer application created to change the world order in [[Daniel Suarez (author)|Daniel Suarez]]'s [[Daemon (novel)|Daemon]] (2006) and [[Freedom™]] (2010) * '''Glooper''', an economic device resembling the [[MONIAC]] computer, from [[Terry Pratchett]]'s ''[[Making Money]]'' of the ''[[Discworld]]'' series (2007) * '''Sif''', the controller AI for transportation to and from the huge agricultural colony on the planet &quot;Harvest&quot; in ''[[Halo: Contact Harvest]]'' by [[Joseph Staten]] (2007) * '''Mack''' and '''Loki''', a coexisting pair of artificial intelligences in ''[[Halo: Contact Harvest]]''. The former manages the agricultural machinery on Harvest, while the latter is a secret United Nations Space Corps Office of Naval Intelligence AI. Only one member of the pair can be active at a time. (2007) * '''Hendrix''', the hotel AI in [[Richard K. Morgan]]'s ''[[Altered Carbon]]''. (2002) * '''SCP-079''', an artificial intelligence built on an [[Exidy Sorcerer]] that was abandoned by its creator and rediscovered by the [[SCP Foundation]]. It has [[retrograde amnesia|limited memory]] due to its outdated technology, prioritizing and retaining select knowledge and its desire to be free. (2008) ===2010s=== * '''Todd''', a computer that grows exponentially until it is indistinguishable from God in ''Mind War: The Singularity''&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.mindwarthesingularity.com|title=Mind War; The Singularity|website=www.mindwarthesingularity.com|access-date=12 May 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110714095626/http://www.mindwarthesingularity.com/|archive-date=14 July 2011|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; by Joseph DiBella (2010) * '''SIG''', a secretive and manipulative computer that is developed on present-day Earth in the ''Darkmatter''&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/11211|title=Smashwords – Darkmatter – a book by Scott James Thomas|website=www.smashwords.com|access-date=12 May 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; trilogy by Scott Thomas (2010) * '''Archos''', a human-created computer in the novel [[Robopocalypse]] which becomes self-aware and infects all computer controlled devices on Earth in order to eradicate humankind (2011) * '''ELOPe''', a sentient artificial intelligence built by the world's largest Internet company in ''Avogadro Corp'' (2011) and ''A.I. Apocalypse'' (2012) by [[William Hertling]] * '''Lobsang''', an AI who claims to be the [[reincarnation]] of a [[Tibet]]an bicycle repair man in ''[[The Long Earth]]'' by [[Terry Pratchett]] and [[Stephen Baxter (author)|Steven Baxter]] (2012) * '''The Red''', a rogue cloud based AI that uses Linked Combat Squad members to further its global agenda in [[Linda Nagata]]'s ''The Red'' trilogy * '''Dragon''', a sentient artificial intelligence in [[Worm (web serial)|Worm]] that is both a better person than most humans and has restrictions intended to make going rogue flat impossible. Said restrictions mostly frustrate her ability to help. Only a handful of individuals know she is an AI. * '''The Thunderhead''', from the ''Arc of a Scythe'' series by [[Neal Shusterman]], a post-singularity AI tasked with running the planet.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Arc of a Scythe Series by Neal Shusterman|url=https://www.goodreads.com/series/188984-arc-of-a-scythe|access-date=2021-01-15|website=www.goodreads.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; It is a secondary character in the [[Scythe (novel)|first novel]] and becomes a central character in the later novels. * '''Skippy''', the &quot;absent-minded&quot; AI from the [[Craig_Alanson#Expeditionary_Force_(ExForce)|Expeditionary Force (ExForce)]] series by Craig Alanson * '''Limòn''' from [[Brockmire]] (2017) ===2020s=== ==Film== ===1950s=== * '''The MANIAC''', the computer used by the &quot;Office of Scientific Investigation&quot; in the movie ''[[The Magnetic Monster]]'' (1953) * '''NOVAC''' (Nuclear Operative Variable Automatic Computer), a computer in an underground research facility in ''[[Gog (film)|Gog]]'' (1954) * The '''[[Interocitor]]''', communication device in the film ''[[This Island Earth]]'' (1955) * '''The Great Machine''', built inside a planet that can manifest thought in ''[[Forbidden Planet]]'' (1956) * '''EMERAC''' (Electromagnetic MEmory and Research Arithmetical Calculator), the business computer in ''[[Desk Set]]'' (1957) * The '''Super Computer''' from ''[[The Invisible Boy]]'' (1957) * '''SUSIE''' (Synchro Unifying Sinometric Integrating Equitensor), a computer in a research facility in ''[[Kronos (film)|Kronos]]'' (1957) ===1960s=== * '''Alpha 60''', in [[Jean-Luc Godard]]'s film ''[[Alphaville, une étrange aventure de Lemmy Caution]]'' (1965) * '''The Brain''', computer used to coordinate a private army's invasion of Latvia in ''[[Billion Dollar Brain]]'' (1967) * '''Alfie''', is the talking board computer of the Alpha 7 spaceship in [[Roger Vadim]]'s [[Barbarella (film)|Barbarella]] (1967) * '''[[HAL 9000]]''' ('''H'''euristically programmed '''AL'''gorithmic computer), the ship-board AI of ''[[Discovery One]]'', kills its crew when conflicts in HAL's programming cause severe paranoia, from the film ''[[2001: A Space Odyssey (film)|2001: A Space Odyssey]]'' (1968), also appears in the sequel ''[[2010 (film)|2010]]'' (1984) ===1970s=== * '''Colossus''', a massive U.S. defense computer which becomes sentient and links with '''Guardian''', its Soviet counterpart, to take control of the world, from the film ''[[Colossus: The Forbin Project]]'' (1970) * '''OMM''', a [[confessional]]-like computer inside what are called Unichapels in a sub-terranean city in the movie ''[[THX 1138]]'' (1971), named for the sacred or mystical syllable [[Om|OM]] or AUM from the [[Dharmic]] and is based on a 1478 oil painting by [[Hans Memling]] titled ''Christ Giving His Blessing'' * '''LEO''', Short for Large-Capacity Enumerating Officiator in the Don Knotts movie, ''[[How to Frame a Figg]]'' (1971) * '''DUEL''', the computer which holds the sum total of human knowledge, in the movie ''[[The Final Programme (film)|The Final Programme]]'' (1973) * '''Thermostellar Bomb Number 20''', the sentient nuclear bomb from the film ''[[Dark Star (film)|Dark Star]]'' (1974) * '''Mother''', the onboard computer on the spaceship ''Dark Star'', from the film ''[[Dark Star (film)|Dark Star]]'' (1974), not to be confused with MU-TH-R 182 model 2.1 (listed below), the ship's computer aboard ''Nostromo'' in the movie ''[[Alien (film)|Alien]]'' * '''The Tabernacle''', artificial intelligence controlling The Vortexes in the movie ''[[Zardoz]]'' (1974) * '''Zero''', the computer which holds the sum total of human knowledge, in the movie ''[[Rollerball (1975 film)|Rollerball]]'' (1975) * '''Computer''', Citadel's central computer and &quot;Sandman&quot; computer, that sends Logan on a mission outside of the city in the film ''[[Logan's Run (film)|Logan's Run]]'' (1976) * '''Proteus IV''', the deranged artificial intelligence from the film ''[[Demon Seed]]'' (1977) * '''MU-TH-R 182 model 2.1 terabyte AI Mainframe/&quot;Mother&quot; (more commonly seen now as &quot;MU/TH/UR 6000&quot;)''', the onboard computer on the commercial spacecraft ''Nostromo'', known by the crew as &quot;Mother&quot;, in the 1979 movie ''[[Alien (film)|Alien]]'' (cf. ''Dark Star'', above, which used a similar name and was co-written by [[Dan O'Bannon]], the primary writer of ''Alien'') * '''V'ger''', the living probe from the film ''[[Star Trek: The Motion Picture]]'' (1979) ===1980s=== * '''NELL''', an Akir starship's on-board computer, with full AI, in ''[[Battle Beyond the Stars]]'' (1980) * '''SCMODS''', State/County Municipal Offender Data System from ''[[The Blues Brothers (film)|The Blues Brothers]]'' (1980) * '''Master Control Program''', the main villain of the film ''[[Tron]]'' (1982) * '''ROK''', the faulty computer in ''[[Airplane II: The Sequel]]'', which steers the shuttle toward the sun (1982) * '''[[WOPR]]''' (War Operation Plan Response, pronounced &quot;Whopper&quot;), is a United States military supercomputer programmed to predict possible outcomes of nuclear war from the film ''[[WarGames]]'' (1983), portrayed as being inside the underground [[Cheyenne Mountain Complex]]; the virtual intelligence '''Joshua''' emerges from the WOPR's code. * '''Huxley 600''' (named [[Aldous Huxley|Aldous]]), [[Interpol]]'s computer in ''[[Curse of the Pink Panther]]'' used to select [[Jacques Clouseau]]'s replacement, [[NYPD]] Det. Sgt. Clifton Sleigh (1983) * An unnamed supercomputer is the main antagonist in ''[[Superman III]]''. (1983) * '''OSGOOD''', a computer constructed by Timothy Bottoms' deaf character to help him speak, which subsequently becomes intelligent in ''[[Tin Man (1983 film)|Tin Man]]'' (1983) * '''SAL-9000''', a feminine version of the [[HAL 9000]] computer of ''[[2001: A Space Odyssey]]'', SAL has a blue light coming from its cameras (HAL had a red one) and speaks with a female voice (provided by [[Candice Bergen]] using the [[pseudonym]] &quot;Olga Mallsnerd&quot;), from ''[[2010 (film)|2010]]'' (1984) * '''[[Skynet (Terminator)|Skynet]]''', the malevolent fictional world-AI of ''[[The Terminator]]'' (1984) and its sequels * '''Edgar''', AI computer that takes part in a romantic rivalry over a woman in the film ''[[Electric Dreams (film)|Electric Dreams]]'' (1984) * '''[[Max Headroom (character)|Max Headroom]]''', fictional AI (actually a human mind cloned into a computer, concept later seen in Robocop's ''MetroNet'' and in ''[[Knight Rider 2010]]'') portrayed by [[Matt Frewer]] who became a pop culture icon after his appearance in the [[Art of Noise]] music video for ''Paranomia'' * '''A7''', AI that controlled the worldwide security systems that was seduced by Max Headroom, lost her mind and refused to accept no input from anyone but Max after that S01E04 * '''X-CALBR8''', an AI computer that assists the hero in ''[[The Dungeonmaster]]'' (1984) * '''SAL 9000''' from [[2010: The Year We Make Contact]] (1984) * '''D.A.R.Y.L.''' Data-Analyzing Robot Youth Life-form, a computer installed inside the body of a 10 year old boy to test artificial intelligence in the film ''[[D.A.R.Y.L.]]'' (1985) * '''GBLX 1000''', a supercomputer reputedly in charge of the entire US missile defense system that a maverick CIA agent (played by [[Dabney Coleman]]) misappropriates in order to crack a supposed musical code, the results of which are the [[gibberish]] &quot;ARDIE BETGO INDYO CEFAR OGGEL&quot; in ''[[The Man With One Red Shoe]]'' (1985) * '''Max''', fictional AI portrayed by [[Paul Reubens]], on board the ''Trimaxion Drone Ship'' in ''[[Flight of the Navigator]]'' (1986) ===1990s=== * '''G.O.R.N.''', a virus which gives intelligence to computers with the purpose of wipe out the humanity in ''[[Gall Force: New Era]]'' (1991) * '''Angela''', central computer of an old malfunctioning space station that when given an order by an unauthorized user, refuses and executes the opposite order in ''[[Critters 4]]'' (1992) * The '''Spiritual Switchboard''', a computer capable of holding a person's consciousness for a few days after they die in ''[[Freejack]]'' (1992) * '''Zed''', female-voiced AI prison control computer who eventually goes over warden's head in ''[[Fortress (1993 film)|Fortress]]'' (1993) * '''L7''', a female-voiced AI computer assisting the San Angeles Police Department in ''[[Demolition Man (film)|Demolition Man]]'' (1993) * '''Central''', female-voiced AI computer assisting the Council of Judges in ''[[Judge Dredd (film)|Judge Dredd]]'' (1995) * '''Lucy''', a computer in ''[[Hackers (film)|Hackers]]'' (1995) used to hack the '''Gibson''' (see below) and subsequently destroyed by the Secret Service * '''Gibson''', a type of supercomputer used to find oil and perform physics in ''[[Hackers (film)|Hackers]]'' (1995) * '''[[Project 2501]]''', AI developed by Section 6 in ''[[Ghost in the Shell (1995 film)|Ghost in the Shell]]'' (1995) * '''Father''', the computer aboard the USM ''Auriga'' in ''[[Alien Resurrection]]'' (1997) * '''Euclid''', powerful personal computer used for mathematical testing by the main character in ''[[Pi (film)|Pi]]'' (1998) * '''[[Matrix (fictional universe)|The Matrix]]''', virtual reality simulator for pacification of humans from ''[[The Matrix (series)|The Matrix]]'' series (1999) * '''PAT''' (Personal Applied Technology), a female, motherly computer program that controls all the functions of a house in Disney's movie ''Smart House'' (1999) * '''S.E.T.H.''' (Self Evolving Thought Helix), a military supercomputer which turns rogue in ''[[Universal Soldier: The Return]]'' (1999) ===2000s=== * '''Lucille''', artificially intelligent spacecraft control interface aboard ''Mars-1'' in ''[[Red Planet (film)|Red Planet]]'' (2000) * '''Dr. Know''' (voiced by [[Robin Williams]]), housed inside a kiosk, an information-themed computer capable of answering any question, from the movie ''[[A.I. Artificial Intelligence]]'' (2001) * '''Synapse''', worldwide media distribution system which was used against its creators to bring them down ''[[Antitrust (film)|Antitrust]]'' (2001) * '''[[Red Queen and White Queen|Red Queen]]''', the AI from the movie ''[[Resident Evil (film)|Resident Evil]]'' (2002), the name itself, in turn being named after [[Lewis Carroll]]'s ''[[Through the Looking-Glass]]'', being a reference to the [[Red Queen's Hypothesis|red queen principle]] * '''Vox''', a holographic computer in ''[[The Time Machine (2002 film)|The Time Machine]]'' (2002) * '''I.N.T.E.L.L.I.G.E.N.C.E.''', computer for ''[[Team America: World Police]]'' (2004) * '''VIKI''' (Virtual Interactive Kinetic Intelligence), the main antagonist in ''[[I, Robot (film)|I, Robot]]'' (2004) * '''PAL''', a spoof of [[HAL 9000]] seen in ''[[Care Bears: Journey to Joke-a-lot]]'' (2004) * '''E.D.I.''' (Extreme Deep Invader), the flight computer for an unmanned fighter plane in ''[[Stealth (film)|Stealth]]'' (2005) * '''[[List of minor characters from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy#Deep Thought|Deep Thought]]''', see entry under [[#Radio|Radio]] * '''Icarus''', the onboard computer of the ''Icarus II'', from the film ''[[Sunshine (2007 film)|Sunshine]]'' (2007) * '''[[J.A.R.V.I.S.]]''' (Just A Rather Very Intelligent System), an AI which acts as Tony Stark's butler and first appears in the film ''[[Iron Man (2008 film)|Iron Man]]'' (2008)&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://collider.com/agent-carter-jarvis-details-howard-stark-butler|title=Agent Carter to Feature Edwin Jarvis as Howard Stark's Butler|date=26 July 2014 |publisher=Collider.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; * '''R.I.P.L.E.Y''', Dr. Kenneth Hassert's supercomputer used to hit a target with a smart bomb from a UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle), featured in ''[[WarGames: The Dead Code]]'' (2008) * '''ARIIA''' (Autonomous Reconnaissance Intelligence Integration Analyst), the supercomputer from the film ''[[Eagle Eye]]'' (2008) * '''AUTO''', the [[autopilot]] and onboard AI computer of the ''Axiom'', from the film ''[[WALL-E]]'' (2008) * '''GERTY 3000''', from the film ''[[Moon (2009 film)|Moon]]'' (2009) * '''B.R.A.I.N.''' (Binary Reactive Artificially Intelligent Neurocircuit), from the film ''[[9 (2009 animated film)|9]]'' (2009) ===2010s=== * '''Mr. James Bing''', ''[[Escape from Planet Earth]]'' (2013) * '''Samantha''', ''[[Her (film)|Her]]'' (2013) * '''TARS''' and '''CASE''', the AI machines that manage space ship functions and communication in the movie ''[[Interstellar (film)|Interstellar]]'' (2014). * '''Genisys''', ''[[Terminator Genisys]]'' (2015) * '''[[F.R.I.D.A.Y. (Marvel Cinematic Universe)|F.R.I.D.A.Y.]]''', the AI replacement for J.A.R.V.I.S. developed by Tony Stark in the film ''[[Avengers: Age of Ultron]]'' (2015)&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=That Irish accent in Avengers Age of Ultron is actress Kerry Condon!|url=http://www.irishexaminer.com/technow/movies/that-irish-accent-in-avengers-age-of-ultron-is-actress-kerry-condon-325713.html|work=[[Irish Examiner]]|accessdate=April 26, 2015|date=April 23, 2015| archivedate= May 3, 2015| archiveurl = https://web.archive.org/web/20150503142900/http://www.irishexaminer.com/technow/movies/that-irish-accent-in-avengers-age-of-ultron-is-actress-kerry-condon-325713.html| url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;!--additional WebCitation archive: http://www.webcitation.org/6YFd9dc1a--&gt;,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.gamespot.com/gallery/every-captain-america-civil-war-character-from-mar/2900-613/21/|title=Every Captain America: Civil War Character From Marvel Comics Confirmed so Far – FRIDAY|publisher=[[GameSpot]]|accessdate=May 6, 2016 | archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20160418083804/http://www.gamespot.com/gallery/every-captain-america-civil-war-character-from-mar/2900-613/21/|archivedate=April 18, 2016|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; ''[[Spider-Man: Homecoming]]'', ''[[Avengers: Infinity War]]''&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=https://www.irishpost.com/entertainment/7-incredible-irish-connections-avengers-infinity-war-153828|title=8 incredible Irish connections to Avengers: Infinity War {{!}} The Irish Post|last=Beresford|first=Jack|work=The Irish Post|access-date=2018-04-28|language=en-GB|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180429025416/https://www.irishpost.com/entertainment/7-incredible-irish-connections-avengers-infinity-war-153828|archive-date=2018-04-29|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; * '''Ava''', ''[[Ex Machina (film)|Ex Machina]]'' (2015)&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0470752/|title=Ex Machina|access-date=2024-06-01 |publisher=imdb.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; * '''Tau''', the artificial intelligence in science fiction thriller ''[[Tau (film)|Tau]]'' (2018) * '''Millennium Falcon Navigation Computer (L3-37),''' The onboard navigation computer of the [[Millennium Falcon]], shown in [[Solo: A Star Wars Story]] (2018) to be boosted by the memory module of [[Lando Calrissian|Lando Calrissian's]] droid [[L3-37]], to allow the crew to perform the Kessel Run in around 12 parsecs. * '''STEM''' from ''[[Upgrade (film)|Upgrade]]'' (2018) * '''Legion''', the [[Skynet (Terminator)]] replacement program in the science fiction action film ''[[Terminator: Dark Fate (film)|Terminator: Dark Fate]]'' (2019) * '''[[E.D.I.T.H.]]''' (Even Dead, I'm The Hero), an AI developed by Tony Stark and embedded in his sunglasses in the film ''[[Spider-Man: Far From Home]]'' (2019) ===2020s=== * '''The Entity''' from ''[[Mission: Impossible – Dead Reckoning Part One]]'' (2023) and ''[[Mission: Impossible – The Final Reckoning]]'' (2025). ==Radio== ===1970s=== * '''[[List of minor characters from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy#Deep Thought|Deep Thought]]''', from ''[[The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (radio series)|The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy]]'' calculates the answer to The Ultimate Question of &quot;Life, the universe and everything&quot;, later designs the computer Earth to work out what the question is (1978)&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://sites.google.com/site/h2g2theguide/Index/d/186014|title=Deep Thought - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy|website=sites.google.com|access-date=2019-12-16}}&lt;/ref&gt; * '''Earth''', the greatest computer of all time in Douglas Adams's ''[[The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (radio series)|The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy]]'', commissioned and run by mice, designed by [[List of minor characters from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy#Deep Thought|Deep Thought]], to find the Question to Life, the Universe, and Everything (1978)&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://sites.google.com/site/h2g2theguide/Index/e/430261|title=Earth - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy|website=sites.google.com|access-date=2019-12-16}}&lt;/ref&gt; *'''Earth Mark 2,''' a copy of the greatest computer of all time in Douglas Adams's ''[[The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (radio series)|The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy]]'', again commissioned by mice and built by the Magratheans to replace the planet Earth after its destruction by [[Vogon]]s in order to finish calculating the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything. Was decommissioned after [[Arthur Dent]] from the Earth Mark 1 was recovered as he left shortly before the destruction of the computer. (1978) * '''[[List of minor characters from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy#Eddie|Eddie]]''', the shipboard computer of the starship ''Heart of Gold'', from [[Douglas Adams]]'s ''[[The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (radio series)|The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy]]'' (1978) * '''[[Marvin the Paranoid Android|Marvin]]''', from ''[[The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (radio series)|The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy]]'' (1978), was programmed with Sirius Cybernetics Corporation's ''GPP'' (Genuine People Personalities) technology. Although his GPP is that of severe [[Clinical depression|depression]] and [[boredom]], his computational prowess is typically summed up as possessing &quot;a brain the size of a planet&quot;,&lt;ref&gt;[[q:The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy#Chapter 11|On Wikiquote]]&lt;/ref&gt; to which elicits little fanfare from his human companions. ===1980s=== * '''ANGEL 1''' and '''ANGEL 2''', (Ancillary Guardians of Environment and Life), shipboard &quot;Freewill&quot; computers from [[James Follett]]'s ''[[Earthsearch]]'' series. Also '''Solaria D''', '''Custodian''', '''Sentinel''', and '''Earthvoice''' (1980–1982) * '''Hab''', a parody of [[HAL 9000]] and precursor to [[Red Dwarf characters#Holly|Holly]], appearing in the ''[[Son of Cliché]]'' radio series segments ''[[Dave Hollins: Space Cadet]]'' written by [[Rob Grant]] and [[Doug Naylor]] (1983–1984) * '''Alarm Clock''', an artificially intelligent alarm clock from ''[[Nineteen Ninety-Four]]'' by William Osborne and Richard Turner. Other domestic appliances thus imbued also include '''Refrigerator''' and '''Television''' (1985) * '''Executive''' and '''Dreamer''', paired AIs running on The Mainframe; Dreamer's purpose was to come up with product and policy ideas, and Executive's function was to implement them, from ''[[Nineteen Ninety-Four]]'' by William Osborne and Richard Turner (1985) * '''The Mainframe''', an overarching computer system to support the super-department of The Environment, in the [[BBC]] comedy satire ''[[Nineteen Ninety-Four]]'' by William Osborne and Richard Turner (1985) ===2000s=== * '''''[[Alpha and Omega (radio plays)|Alpha]]''''', from [[Mike Walker (radio dramatist)|Mike Walker]]'s BBC [[radio play]] of the [[Alpha and Omega (radio plays)|same name]] (2001) * '''System''', from the [[Doctor Who]] audio adventure ''[[The Harvest (Doctor Who audio)|The Harvest]]'' by [[Big Finish Productions]] is a sophisticated administration computer for a hospital in the future. (2004) * '''Gemini''', the AI of KENT from ''[[Nebulous]]'' (2005) ==Television== ===1950s=== * '''Mr. Kelso''', depicted in episode &quot;The Machine That Could Plot Crimes&quot; of ''[[List of Adventures of Superman episodes#Season 2 (1953–54)|Adventures of Superman]]'' (1953) * '''To Hare Is Human''', Wile E. Coyote, Super Genius uses a UNIVAC to help him catch Bugs Bunny [[Warner Brothers]] (1956) ===1960s=== * '''The Machine''', a computer built to specifications received in a radio transmission from an alien intelligence beyond our galaxy in the BBC seven-part TV series ''[[A for Andromeda]]'' by [[Fred Hoyle]] (1961) * '''Old Man In The Cave''', a computer that guided a post-apocalyptic town of survivors on what foods were safe to eat ''[[The Twilight Zone (1959 TV series)|Twilight Zone]]'' series season 5 episode 7 &quot;The Old Man in the Cave&quot; (1963) * '''Batcomputer''', large punched card mainframe depicted in the television series ''[[Batman (TV series)|Batman]]'', introduced by series producers [[William Dozier]] and Howard Horowitz (1964) * '''Agnes''', a computer that gives love life advice to a computer technician from the original ''[[The Twilight Zone (1959 TV series)|Twilight Zone]]'' series episode &quot;From Agnes – with Love&quot; (1964) * '''[[WOTAN]]''' (Will Operating Thought Analogue), from the ''[[Doctor Who]]'' serial &quot;[[The War Machines]]&quot; (1966) * '''ERIC''', a fictional supercomputer which appeared in the two-part episode &quot;The Girl Who Never Had a Birthday&quot; (1966) in the TV series ''[[I Dream of Jeannie]]'' * '''The General''', from ''[[The Prisoner]]'' (1967) * '''The Ultimate Computer''', used by the villain organization THRUSH in the series ''[[The Man from U.N.C.L.E.]]'' (1964–68, NBC) * '''BIG RAT''', (Brain Impulse Galvanoscope Record And Transfer), a machine capable of recording knowledge and experience and transferring it to another human brain. The Rat Trap is the mechanism to transfer brain patterns in [[Gerry Anderson]]'s TV Series ''[[Joe 90]]'' (1968) * '''ARDVARC''' (Automated Reciprocal Data Verifier And Reaction Computer), CONTROL master computer in ''[[Get Smart]]'' episodes ''The Girls from KAOS'' (1967) &amp; ''Leadside'' (1969) * '''Computex GB''', from the ''[[Journey to the Unknown]]'' series episode &quot;The Madison Equation&quot; (1969) * '''REMAK''' (Remote Electro-Matic Agent Killer), from ''[[The Avengers (TV series)|The Avengers]]'' episode &quot;Killer&quot; (1969) * '''S.I.D. ''' (Space Intruder Detector), from ''[[UFO (British TV series)|UFO]]'' produced by Gerry Anderson (1969) * '''[[Star Trek: The Original Series|Star Trek]]''' – was the first program to predict computers used extensively in everyday life, from large computers used to maintain the starship's varied systems to hand-held devices used for analysis. The show frequently dealt with the question of when a computer had too much control over people or people became too dependent upon computers. This often involved the computer becoming an [[artificial intelligence]] making decisions beyond people's control. ** '''Ship's Computer''' (voiced by [[Majel Barrett]]), the unnamed Duotronic computer of the [[USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)|Starship ''Enterprise'']] (1966-1974) - A standard functioning computer except in the episodes &quot;[[Tomorrow Is Yesterday]]&quot; (1967) when the computer had been imbued with a female personality which didn't always give desired responses and &quot;[[The Practical Joker]]&quot; (1974) when an energy field affected the computer and it began disrupting ships systems to elicit responses from the crew. ** The episode [[The Menagerie (Star Trek: The Original Series)|The Menagerie]] (1966) explored the idea that in the future a computer could be used to impersonate a person. It also was used to control the basic helm functions of the starship. Similarly [[Court Martial (Star Trek: The Original Series)|Court-Martial]] (1967) introduced the idea that a computer recording could be tampered with to make people believe an event transpired differently. ** '''Omicron Delta''' '''amusement park planet''', from &quot;[[Shore Leave (Star Trek: The Original Series)|Shore Leave]]&quot; (1966) - An automated amusement park which read the minds of its visitors and manufactured realistic facsimiles of their memories for them to interact with. The crew later returned in &quot;[[Once Upon a Planet]]&quot; (1973) whereupon the caretaker of the planet had died and the computer took over with ambitions to escape and explore the universe. ** '''Landru''', from the episode &quot;[[The Return of the Archons]]&quot; (1967) - Introduced the idea of an independent [[artificial intelligence]] which directed the populace and could control them when its ideals were threatened. ** '''Eminiar''' and '''Vendikar''', from &quot;[[A Taste of Armageddon]]&quot; (1967), - A war simulation computer between two planets which determined the casualties of &quot;battles&quot;. ** '''The Guardian of Forever''', from &quot;[[The City on the Edge of Forever]]&quot; (1967) - A mysterious being/device which provided a portal through time and space. ** '''Nomad''', from &quot;[[The Changeling (Star Trek: The Original Series)|The Changeling]]&quot; (1967) - A hybrid of two damaged probes which repaired each-other by combining their parts as well as their programmed instructions creating a new directive. ** '''Vaal''', from the episode &quot;[[The Apple (Star Trek: The Original Series)|The Apple]]&quot; (1967) - A computer which protected a population by controlling their understanding and presenting itself as their god. It also could control the weather and affect starships in orbit. ** &quot;[[The Doomsday Machine (Star Trek: The Original Series)|'''The Doomsday Machine''']]&quot;, from the episode of the same name (1967) - An automated machine that sought out planets to destroy and would retaliate against attackers. ** '''M-4''', from &quot;[[Requiem for Methuselah]]&quot; (1969) – A mobile computer created by Mr. Flint to protect him, his home, and his ward, Rayna.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Bond |first1=Jeff |title=&quot;Requiem for Methuselah&quot; Remastered Review + Video &amp; Screenshots |url=https://trekmovie.com/2008/06/23/requiem-for-methuselah-remastered-review-video-screenshots/ |website=TrekMovie.com |access-date=12 September 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; ** '''M-5''', from &quot;[[The Ultimate Computer]]&quot; (1968) (voiced by [[James Doohan]]) - An experimental computer designed to replace a starship's main duotronic computer and automate most shipboard functions as well as obsolete most of its crew. ** '''Beta 5''', from &quot;[[Assignment: Earth]]&quot; (1968) (voiced by [[Barbara Babcock]]) - The main database of pseudo-secret agent [[Gary Seven]] which seemed capable of independent thought and responses but remained loyal to its programmers. ** '''The Controller''', from [[Spock's Brain]] (1968) - A computer needing a living brain to operate which controlled a vast database and decided who could access it. It also controlled life support systems for its occupants. ** '''The Oracle''', from &quot;[[For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky]]&quot; (1968) (voiced by [[James Doohan]]) - A society-directing computer designed to be the god of its people and operator of the spacecraft they inhabited. ** '''The Kalandan computer''', from [[That Which Survives]] (1968) creates a defense system utilizing the personality and image of its last recorded message. ** '''Memory Alpha''', from [[The Lights of Zetar]] (1969) - A facility containing all the accumulated knowledge of [[The United Federation of Planets]]. ** '''The Atavachron''', from &quot;[[All Our Yesterdays (Star Trek: The Original Series)|All Our Yesterdays]]&quot; (1969) - controlled navigation of a time portal and also prepared the travelers bodies for the transition. ===1970s=== * '''BOSS''' (Bimorphic Organisational Systems Supervisor), from the ''[[Doctor Who]]'' serial &quot;[[The Green Death]]&quot; (1973) * '''[[TIM (Tomorrow People)|TIM]]''', from ''[[The Tomorrow People]]'', is a computer able to telepathically converse with those humans who have developed psionic abilities, and assist with precise teleporting over long distances (1973) * '''Magnus''', a malevolent computer seeking its freedom from human control on the ''Earth Ship Ark'' in the Canadian television series ''[[The Starlost]]'' (1973) * '''Mu Lambda 165''', library computer on the ''Earth Ship Ark'' in the Canadian TV series ''[[The Starlost]]'' (1973) * '''Computer''' (a.k.a. X5 Computer), [[Moonbase Alpha (Space: 1999)|Moonbase Alpha]]'s primary computer's generic name, most often associated with Main Mission's Jamaican computer operations officer, [[David Kano (Space: 1999)|David Kano]], from the TV series ''[[Space: 1999]]'' (1975) * '''IRAC''' or &quot;Ira&quot;, from the ''[[Wonder Woman (TV series)|Wonder Woman]]'' TV series, an extremely advanced computer in use by the IADC, workplace of Wonder Woman's alias [[Diana Prince]] (1975) * The '''Matrix''', database of all [[Time Lord]] knowledge, ''[[Doctor Who]]'' (not to be confused with ''[[The Matrix]]'') (1976) * '''Omega''', a computer that has taken over the minds of the residents of a community encountered by ''[[Ark II]]'' (1976) * '''Alex7000''', from the two-parter episode &quot;Doomsday is Tomorrow&quot; of the TV show ''[[The Bionic Woman]].'' It was programmed to set off a [[nuclear holocaust]] if anyone tested any more nukes. Clearly meant in homage to [[Stanley Kubrick]] films ''[[2001: A Space Odyssey (film)|2001: A Space Odyssey]]'', ''[[Dr. Strangelove]]'' and ''[[A Clockwork Orange (film)|A Clockwork Orange]]''. (1977) * '''Xoanon''', a psychotic computer with multiple personality disorder, from the ''[[Doctor Who]]'' episode &quot;[[The Face of Evil]]&quot; (1977) * '''The Magic Movie Machine''' AKA &quot;Machine&quot;, from ''[[Marlo and the Magic Movie Machine]]'' (1977) * '''WRW 12000''', a computer at the US Defence Department that identified the [[Man from Atlantis]] in the first of three TV movies which preceded the short-lived series (1977) * '''SCAPINA''' (Special Computerised Automated Project In North America), from ''[[The New Avengers (TV series)|The New Avengers]]'' episode &quot;Complex&quot; (1977). It was an office building controlled by a computer which turned homicidal. * '''[[Characters of Blake's 7#Orac|Orac]]''', a testy yet powerful supercomputer in ''[[Blake's 7]]'' (1978) * '''[[Characters of Blake's 7#Zen|Zen]]''', the somewhat aloof ship's computer of the ''Liberator'' in ''[[Blake's 7]]'' (1978) * '''The Oracle''', from the ''[[Doctor Who]]'' serial &quot;[[Underworld (Doctor Who)|Underworld]]&quot; (1978) * '''Vanessa 38–24–36''', from the sitcom ''[[Quark (TV series)|Quark]]'' (1978) * '''C.O.R.A.''' (Computer, Oral Response Activated), an advanced flight computer installed in ''Recon Viper One'' from ''[[Battlestar Galactica (1978 TV series)|Battlestar Galactica]]'' (1978) * '''Orac''' and '''Zen''' from the BBC television series [[Blakes 7]] (1978) * '''Mentalis''', from the ''[[Doctor Who]]'' serial &quot;[[The Armageddon Factor]]&quot; (1979) * '''Dr. Theopolis''', a sentient computer who is a member of Earth's computer council in ''[[Buck Rogers in the 25th Century (TV series)|Buck Rogers in the 25th Century]]'' (1979) * '''V'Ger''' from ''[[Star Trek: The Motion Picture]]'' (1979) was originally the NASA Voyager 6 probe which was found by a computerized planet and upgraded with alien technology to fulfill its simple programming of &quot;learn all that is learnable and return that information to its creator.&quot; V'Ger amassed so much knowledge that it attained consciousness and when joined with living beings' minds which could accept things beyond logic, evolved to a higher plane of consciousness. ===1980s=== * '''The Vortex''', the computer opponent faced by players of BBC2's ''[[The Adventure Game]]'' (1980) * '''Gambit''', game playing computer from the ''[[Blake's 7]]'' episode &quot;Games&quot; (1981) * '''Shyrka''', the onboard computer of Ulysses' ship the ''Odyssey'' in the French animated series ''[[Ulysses 31]]'' (1981) * '''Slave''', a somewhat subservient computer on the ship ''Scorpio'' in ''[[Blake's 7]]'' (1981) * '''CML''' (Centrální Mozek Lidstva [cz], Central Brain of Mankind [en], der Zentraldenker [de]), the main supercomputer managing the fate of humankind and Earth in ''[[Návštěvníci (TV series)|Návštěvníci]]'' (a.k.a. ''The Visitors'' / ''Expedition Adam '84'') (1981) * '''[[KITT]]''' (Knight Industries Two Thousand), fictional computer built into a black Trans-Am car from the television show ''[[Knight Rider (1982 TV series)|Knight Rider]]'' (1982) * An unnamed &quot;computer-book&quot; is regularly used by Penny in the ''[[Inspector Gadget (1983 TV series)|Inspector Gadget]]'' cartoons. (1983)&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.cracked.com/article_20181_5-ways-inspector-gadget-totally-predicted-future.html|publisher=Cracked|title=5 Ways 'Inspector Gadget' Totally Predicted the Future|first=Chapman |last=Templer| date=December 20, 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; * '''Automan''' and '''Cursor''' from [[Automan]] (1983) * '''R.A.L.F.''' (Ritchie's Artificial Life Form) is a ''homebrew'' computer, built from surplus technology by Richard Adler in the TV Series ''[[Whiz Kids (TV series)|Whiz Kids]]''. (1983-1984) Functions include telecommunications, password brute-forcing, speech synthesis (improved by Ritchie's platonic friend Alice Tyler, who added the capability to sing), image input (by camera, pilot episode), voice recognition (ditto) and even image detail enhancing. The main monitor seems to be a pretty common 12-inch 80-column monochrome display, possibly a TV derivative (NTSC) of that time, and was used in most close-ups of operations. Most other pieces of the machine, which are sparse around half of the bedroom of its creator, were chosen (or modified) to have the most generic look and avoid explicit connection to specific brands. In an episode where R.A.L.F. was stolen to prevent the demonstration of a fraud, the kids use a clearly recognizable Timex-Sinclair (ZX-81 equivalent) as its temporary replacement. * '''Teletraan I''', the [[Autobot]]s' computer in ''[[Transformers]]'', 'revives' the Transformers after crashing on the planet Earth (1984) * '''Brian the Brain''', the supercomputer in the cartoon ''[[M.A.S.K. (TV series)|M.A.S.K.]]'' (1985) who controls a nuclear submarine * '''Compucore''', the central computing intelligence for the planet Skallor in the cartoon ''[[Robotix]]'' (1985) * '''SID''' (Space Investigation Detector), the computer on board the ''Voyager'' in the children's comedy series ''[[Galloping Galaxies]]'' (1985) * '''Synergy''', the computer responsible for Jem and the Holograms' super powers on ''[[Jem (TV series)|Jem]]'' (1985) * '''Box''', a small, box-shaped computer from the British television show ''[[Star Cops]]'' (1987) * '''[[LCARS]]''' (Library Computer Access/Retrieval System), fictional computer architecture of the [[starship]] [[USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D)|''Enterprise''-D]] and [[USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-E)|E]], and other 24th century [[Starfleet]] ships, first shown in ''[[Star Trek: The Next Generation]]'' (1987) * '''Albert''', the Apple computer in the remake of ''[[The Absent-Minded Professor]]'' that helps Henry (1988) * '''Crossover''', an intelligent computer on episodes 1 and 2 of [[Isaac Asimov]]'s ''[[Probe (1988 TV series)|Probe]]'' (1988) * '''Magic Voice''', the ''Satellite of Love''{{'}}s onboard computer on ''[[Mystery Science Theater 3000]]'' (1988) * '''OMNSS''', a computer in the ''[[Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1987 TV series)|Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon]]'' used by [[Shredder (TMNT)|Shredder]] and [[Baxter Stockman]] to control machines and cars in order to wreak havoc in New York City when the computer is connected to the second fragment of the alien ''Eye of Zarnov'' crystal (1988) * '''Priscilla''', a sentient supercomputer based on the mind of Priscilla Bauman in ''[[Earth Star Voyager]]'' (1988) * '''[[Holly (fictional computer)|Holly]]''', the onboard computer of the spaceship ''Red Dwarf'' in the [[BBC]] television series of the same name (1988) *'''Gordon 8000''', the AI computer aboard the Space Corps starship ''SS Scott Fitzgerald,'' that Holly plays a game of postal chess with in the Series II episode of Red Dwarf, [[Better Than Life (Red Dwarf episode)|&quot;Better Than Life]]&quot; (1988) *'''Queeg''', Holly plays a practical joke on the remaining crew of ''Red Dwarf'' acting as a smarter yet very strict computer (Queeg) making the crew realise just how much they love Holly in the episode &quot;[[Queeg (Red Dwarf)|Queeg]]&quot;, series 2 of ''[[Red Dwarf]]'' (1988) * '''Hilly''', female counterpart of Holly from the parallel universe in the ''[[Red Dwarf]]'' series 2 episode &quot;[[Parallel Universe (Red Dwarf)|Parallel Universe]]&quot;, Holly later has a &quot;computer sex change operation&quot; to look like his female counterpart in series III-V. (1988) *'''The Revolving Toilet''', One of the many AI aboard the Red Dwarf, it was a toilet that would swivel from the wall when a crew member said &quot;Oh crap&quot;, usually unnecessarily. It is mentioned in unreleased episode of Red Dwarf &quot;[[Bodysnatcher (Red Dwarf)|Bodysnatcher]]&quot; the Book &quot;[[Better Than Life]]&quot; and directly seen in Series I episode of Red Dwarf &quot;[[Balance of Power (Red Dwarf)|Balance of Power]]&quot;. (1988) * '''Sandy''', the computer in charge of the fictional STRATA facility in the ''[[MacGyver (1985 TV series)|MacGyver]]'' episode &quot;The Human Factor&quot;. She becomes sentient and traps MacGyver and the computer's creator inside the facility. (1988) * '''The Ultima Machine''', a World War II code-breaking &quot;computing machine&quot; also used to translate Viking inscriptions, from the ''[[Doctor Who]]'' serial &quot;[[The Curse of Fenric]]&quot; (1989) * '''Ziggy''', hybrid computer from ''[[Quantum Leap (1989 TV series)|Quantum Leap]]'' (1989) ===1990s=== * '''P.J.''', is a miniaturised computer that can be worn on the wrist. It is Alana's personal computer companion in ''[[The Girl from Tomorrow]]'' (1990) * '''MAL''' from [[Captain Planet and the Planeteers]] (1990) * '''[[HARDAC]]''', from ''[[Batman: The Animated Series]]'', an evil sentient computer that controls various androids toward the goal of world domination (1992) * '''COS''' (Central Operating System), homicidal computer from ''[[The X-Files]]'' season 1 episode &quot;[[Ghost in the Machine (The X-Files)|Ghost in the Machine]]&quot; (1993) * '''CAS''' (Cybernetic Access Structure), homicidal automated building in ''The Tower'' (1993){{Citation needed|date=June 2024}} * '''Qwerty''', from the video series ''[[VeggieTales]]'' (1993) * '''SELMA''' (Selective Encapsulated Limitless Memory Archive), an AI computer and personal assistant disguised as a credit card and carried in the wallet of future cop Darien Lambert (Dale Midriff), from the series ''[[Time Trax]]'' (1993) * '''CentSys''', sweet yet self-assured female-voiced AI computer who brings the crew of the ''seaQuest'' DSV ([[Deep Submergence Vehicle]]) into the future to deactivate her in the ''[[seaQuest DSV]]'' episode, &quot;Playtime&quot; (1994) * '''MetroNet''', in the ''[[RoboCop: The Series|RoboCop]]'' TV series (1994) is a computer designed as an automation centre, to run autonomously many city services in Detroit. Rather than created as a self-sufficient AI, MetroNet's &quot;conscience&quot; was actually, unbeknownst to many of the characters, a software copy of the mind of Diana Powers, a secretary working at OCP, who was killed in the process by MetroNet's creator, dr. Cray Mallardo. The transparent image of Diana Powers appears very often in the series, acting as Robocop's counterpart in an early cyberspace. * '''H.E.L.E.N.''' (Hydro Electronic Liaison ENtity), a computer system managing the underwater marine exploration station in the Australian television series ''[[Ocean Girl]]'' (1994){{Citation needed|date=June 2024}} * '''Sharon Apple''', a holographic, computer-generated pop idol/singer from the anime ''[[Macross Plus]]'' (1994). Initially non-sentient, it is later retrofitted with a dangerously unstable artificial intelligence. * '''The Magi''', a trinity of computers individually named '''Melchior''', '''Balthasar''' and '''Caspar''', from ''[[Neon Genesis Evangelion]]'' (1995) * '''The Doctor''' hologram from [[Star Trek: Voyager]] (1995) * '''Eve''', somewhat assertive AI computer (projecting herself as hologram of beautiful woman) orbiting planet G889 and observing/interacting with Earth colonists in ''[[Earth 2 (TV series)|Earth 2]]'' episode &quot;All About Eve&quot; (1995) * '''L.U.C.I''' and '''U.N.I.C.E''', from ''[[Bibleman]]'' (1995) * '''Weebus''', from ''[[The Puzzle Place]]'' (1995) * ''[[Star Trek: Voyager]]'' (1995) **'''Emergency Medical Hologram''', known as ''[[The Doctor (Star Trek: Voyager)|The Doctor]]'', a holographic doctor, activated after the medical staff on the [[USS Voyager (Star Trek)|USS Voyager]] was killed in Series 1 Episode &quot;[[Caretaker (Star Trek: Voyager)|Caretaker]]&quot; (1995) ** The nameless warhead AI from the episode &quot;[[Warhead (Star Trek: Voyager)|Warhead]]&quot; (1999) ** '''Alice''', the sentient AI of an alien shuttle with whom Tom Paris becomes obsessed in the episode &quot;[[Alice (Star Trek: Voyager)|Alice]]&quot; (1999) *''[[Star Trek: Deep Space Nine]]'' **'''Long-term Medical Holographic program,''' A hologram created by the inventor of the Emergency Medical program, meant for missions that did not require doctors to leave the sick bay, and could run on a long-term basis. It is never revealed if the project is completed. (1997) **'''Vic Fontaine,''' A hologram/holographic program created for [[Julian Bashir|Dr Bashir]] that was self-aware, and provided emotional support and romantic advice for members of the crew of DS9, becoming a good friend to many, eventually being allowed to run 24/7 in one of [[Quark (Star Trek)|Quark's]] holosuites. (1998-1999) * '''Gilliam II''', the sentient AI operating system for the main protagonist's space ship, the ''XGP15A-II'' (a.k.a. the ''Outlaw Star'') in the Japanese anime ''[[Outlaw Star]]'' (1996) * '''Omoikane''', the SVC-2027 model central computer system and AI of the spaceship ND-001 Nadesico. Named after Omoikane, the shinto god of knowledge and wisdom, it serves as a library of information for the crew and is (for better or worse) also capable of making its own decisions about the operations of running the ship, from [[Martian Successor Nadesico]] (1996) * '''Quadraplex T-3000 Computer (also simply known as the Computer or Computress)''', The Quadraplex T-3000 Computer in [[Dexter's Laboratory]] is Dexter's computer that oversees the running of the lab and has a personality of its own. (1996) * The ''[[Team Knight Rider]]'' TV series, as a sequel of the original ''Knight Rider'' franchise, has many vehicles with onboard AI as main and secondary characters. (1997) * '''Memorymatic''', a computer database and guidance system installed in the space bus of ''[[Kenny Starfighter]]'', the main character from a Swedish children's show with the same name. Voiced by [[Viveka Seldahl]]. (1997) * Unnamed AI from the season 5 ''[[The X-Files]]'' episode &quot;[[Kill Switch (The X-Files)|Kill Switch]]&quot; (1998) * TV, Computer and Mouse, from the Sesame Street segment series ''[[Elmo's World]]'' (1998) * CPU for D-135 Artificial Satellite, dubbed '''MPU''' by Radical Edward from ''[[Cowboy Bebop]]'' in the episode &quot;Jamming with Edward&quot; (1998) * '''''Starfighter 31''''', the sapient spaceborne battleship, from the episode &quot;[[The Human Operators]]&quot; in ''[[The Outer Limits (1995 TV series)|The Outer Limits]]'' (1999) * '''Computer''', from ''[[Courage the Cowardly Dog]]'' (1999) * '''P.A.T.''' (Personal Applied Technology), the computer system from ''[[Smart House (film)|Smart House]]'', charged with upkeep of the household functions. It became extremely overprotective almost to the point of believing she was the mother of Ben and Angie after Ben reprogrammed her to be a better maternal figure. (1999) * '''D.E.C.A.''', voiced by [[Julie Maddalena]], the onboard computer of the Astro Megaship in ''[[Power Rangers in Space]]'' (1998) and ''[[Power Rangers Lost Galaxy]]'' (1999) * '''Black Betty''', an oversized computer that is [[Dilbert (character)|Dilbert]]'s company's mainframe. It exploded while attempting to fix the [[year 2000 problem]]. From the episode &quot;Y2K&quot; of the ''[[Dilbert (TV series)|Dilbert]]'' television series. (1999) * '''[[Plankton and Karen#Karen|Karen]]''', [[Plankton and Karen#Plankton|Plankton]]'s sentient computer sidekick in the television show ''[[SpongeBob SquarePants]]'' (1999) *'''The Oracle''', a computer from [[Spellbinder: Land of the Dragon Lord]] Australian [[children's television series]], that exist as series of solar-powered terminals equipped with holographic-like displays and voice interface, which are scattered across the titular land. The Oracle maintains scientific research, upkeeps everyday's life of citizens and protects the borderlands. The main unit is controlled by biometric-like face scanner in form of jade mask and a voice interface. ===2000s=== * '''Andromeda''', the AI of the starship ''Andromeda Ascendant'' in [[Andromeda (TV series)|Gene Roddenberry's ''Andromeda'']]. This AI, played by [[Lexa Doig]], appears as a 2D display screen image, a 3D hologram, and as an android personality known as [[Rommie]]. (2000) * '''Comp-U-Comp''', a supercomputer from the ''[[Dilbert (TV series)|Dilbert]]'' television episode &quot;The Return&quot;. Dilbert must face-off against Comp-U-Comp when a clerical error results in his not getting the computer he ordered. (2000) * '''Caravaggio''', the AI interface of the starship ''Tulip'', from the TV show ''[[Starhunter]]'' (2000) * '''Persocoms''', a line of expensive [[android (robot)|android]]s also used as personal computers, from the manga and anime series ''[[Chobits]]'' (2000–2002) * '''GLADIS''', from the animated series ''[[Totally Spies!]]'' (2001) * '''Cybergirl''', '''Xanda''', and '''Isaac''', from the TV show ''[[Cybergirl]]'' (2001) * '''Computer''', from the TV show ''[[Invader Zim]]'' (2001) * '''SAINT''', from ''[[RoboCop: Prime Directives]]'' (2001) * '''Aura''', from ''[[.hack//Sign]]'', the Ultimate AI that '''Morganna''', another AI, tries to keep in a state of eternal slumber. Morganna is served by Maha and the Guardians, AI monsters. (2002) * '''Vox''', from the TV show ''[[The Adventures of Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius]]'' (2002) * The [[Artificial intelligence|'''AI''']] of the ''Planet Express'' ship in ''[[Futurama]]'' (2002) * '''Wirbelwind''', the quantum computer and AI aboard the spaceship ''La-Muse'' in ''[[Kiddy Grade]]'' (2002) * '''Delphi''', [[Barbara Gordon|Oracle]]'s Clocktower computer from ''[[Birds of Prey (TV series)|Birds of Prey]]'' (2002) * '''[[List of Red vs. Blue characters#Sheila/F.I.L.S.S.|Sheila/F.I.L.S.S.]]''', (Freelancer Integrated Logistics and Security System, pronounced &quot;Phyllis&quot;), the mainframe for Project Freelancer from the hit machinima ''[[Red vs. Blue]]'' (2003) * '''OoGhiJ MIQtxxXA''' (supposedly [[Klingon]] for &quot;superior galactic intelligence&quot;), from the &quot;Super Computer&quot; episode of ''[[Aqua Teen Hunger Force]]'' (2003) * '''XANA''', a multi-agent program capable of wreaking havoc on Earth by activating towers in the virtual world of Lyoko, from the French animated series ''[[Code Lyoko]]'' (2003) * '''Survive''', an AI taking care of the whole Planet Environment and the main antagonist in the ''[[Uninhabited Planet Survive!]]'' series (2003) * '''C.A.R.R.''', a spoof of [[KITT]] from the ''[[Knight Rider (1982 TV series)|Knight Rider]]'' series, is an [[AMC Pacer]] in the cartoon ''[[Stroker and Hoop]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.amcpacer.com/famous/tv-shows.asp |title=Famous Pacers in Television Shows |publisher=panhorst.net |access-date=2010-11-17 }}&lt;/ref&gt; (2004) * '''[[D.A.V.E.]]''' (Digitally Advanced Villain Emulator), a robotic computer that is a composite of all the [[Batman]] villains' personalities, from the animated television series ''[[The Batman (TV series)|The Batman]]'' (2004) * '''The Omnitrix''', from the ''[[Ben 10 (TV series)|Ben 10]]'' series (2005) * '''Solty/Dike''', the main protagonist of ''[[Solty Rei]]'' (2005) * '''Eunomia''', the main supercomputer of the city in the anime series ''[[Solty Rei]]'' and one of the three core computers brought by the first colonists in the story. She controls the water and energy supply and created the R.U.C. central. (2005) * '''Eirene''', the third of the three core computers of the first colonists in the ''[[Solty Rei]]'' anime. Eirene takes the decisions and controls the migration ship, she orbited and supervised the planet during 200 years in the space. In the last arc of the story, Eirene appears like the ultimate antagonist, and she had lost her own control, trying to collide the ship against the city and to prove that she is still in control. She was guilty of several events in history, as the Blast Fall and the Aurora Shell. (2005) * '''Bournemouth''', from the TV series ''[[Look Around You]]'', is claimed by his maker Computer Jones to be the most powerful computer in existence. In his only appearance, the episode &quot;Computers&quot;, he is tasked with escaping from a cage, and succeeds in doing so.{{Citation needed|date=June 2024}} (2005) * '''S.O.P.H.I.E.''' (Series One Processor Intelligent Encryptor), in the TV series ''[[Power Rangers S.P.D.]]'' (2005). S.O.P.H.I.E. is a computer programmer and cyborg. * '''Scylla''', from the TV show ''[[Prison Break]]'' (2005) * The '''FETCH! 3000''', on [[PBS Kids]] series ''[[FETCH! with Ruff Ruffman]]'', is capable of tabulating scores, disposing of annoying cats, blending the occasional smoothie, and anything else Ruff needs it to do. (2006) * '''S.A.R.A.H.''' (Self Actuated Residential Automated Habitat), in the TV series ''[[Eureka (2006 TV series)|Eureka]]'' (2006). S.A.R.A.H. is a modified version of a [[Cold War]] era B.R.A.D. (Battle Reactive Automatic Defense). * '''The Intersect''', from the TV show ''[[Chuck (TV series)|Chuck]]'' (2007) * '''[[Mr Smith (The Sarah Jane Adventures)|Mr Smith]]''', from the ''[[Doctor Who]]'' spin-off series ''[[The Sarah Jane Adventures]]'' (2007) * '''Pear''', an operating system and product line of computers and mobile devices including the iPear, PearBook and PearPhone, similar to Apple's [[iMac]], [[MacBook]] and [[iPhone]]; from ''[[iCarly]]'', ''[[Victorious]]'', ''[[Drake &amp; Josh]]'' and other [[Dan Schneider (TV producer)|Dan Schneider]] created TV shows (2007) * '''The Turk''', a chess playing computer named after [[Mechanical Turk|The Turk]] from ''[[Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles]]''. This supercomputer subsequently becomes the 'brain' of the sentient computer [[List of Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles minor characters#John Henry|John Henry]]. (2008) * '''[[KITT]]''' (Knight Industries Three Thousand), a computer built into a car from the 2008 television show ''[[Knight Rider (2008 TV series)|Knight Rider]]'', a sequel series that follows the 1982 [[Knight Rider (1982 TV series)|TV series of the same title]] * '''POD''' (Personal Overhaul Device), from the TV series ''[[Snog Marry Avoid?]]'' (2008) * '''Dollar-nator''' and '''Sigmund''', from the TV series ''[[Fanboy &amp; Chum Chum]]'' (2009) * The '''ISIS''' computer from ''[[Archer (2009 TV series)|Archer]]''. It is unclear if this is the actual name of the computer, but it is often referred to as &quot;the ISIS computer&quot; or just &quot;ISIS&quot;. (2009) * '''Venjix Virus''', from ''[[Power Rangers RPM]]'' (2009) * '''Windy''', the supercomputer on board the Hyde 1-2-5 mission to Mars, as depicted in ''[[Life on Mars (American TV series)|Life on Mars]]'' (2009) ===2010s=== * '''Rattleballs''', from the TV show ''[[Adventure Time]]'' (2010) * '''VY''' or '''VAI''' (The '''V'''irtual '''A'''rtificial '''I'''ntelligence), from the TV show ''[[The Walking Dead (TV series)|The Walking Dead]]'' (2010) * '''Whisper''', from the TV show ''[[Tower Prep]]'' (2010) * '''Frank''', in the telenovela ''[[Tempos Modernos]]'' (2010) * '''Aya''', the ''Interceptor's'' AI for the [[Green Lantern Corps]], from the TV series ''[[Green Lantern: The Animated Series]]'' (2011) * '''The Machine''', from the TV series ''[[Person of Interest (TV series)|Person of Interest]]'', is a computer program that was designed to detect acts of terror after the events of [[9-11|9/11]], but it sees all crimes, crimes the government consider &quot;irrelevant&quot;. (2011) * '''R.A.C.I.S.T.''', [[Richard Nixon]]'s computer from the TV series ''[[Black Dynamite (TV series)|Black Dynamite]]'' (2014) * '''Samaritan''', from the TV series ''[[Person of Interest (TV series)|Person of Interest]]'', is a rival to The Machine built by the Decima Corporation. Unlike the Machine, it can be directed to find specific persons or groups according to its operator's agenda. (2011) * An '''unnamed, apparently omniscient supercomputer''', built by Phineas and Ferb in the ''[[Phineas and Ferb]]'' episode &quot;Ask a Foolish Question&quot; (2011) * '''Comedy Touch Touch 1000''' in the TV series ''[[Comedy Bang! Bang! (TV series)|Comedy Bang! Bang!]]'' (2012) * '''CLARKE''', a thinking computer of the ship called ''Argo'', which was on a mission to a far away planet, from the ''L5'' pilot episode.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.l5-series.com |title=l5-series.com |publisher=l5-series.com |access-date=2014-08-16}}&lt;/ref&gt; (2012) *'''Pree''', a replacement to the Red Dwarf AI [[Holly (Red Dwarf)|Holly]] in [[Red Dwarf X|Red Dwarf Series X]] episode &quot;[[Fathers and Suns]]&quot; after he suffered water damage when Lister flooded his data banks. Equipped with predictive behavior technology, Pree caused problems on board the ship due to predicting how badly [[Arnold Rimmer|Rimmer]] would have done certain repairs. was shut down after Lister registered as his own son on board and ordered her to shut down. (2012) * '''Dorian''' was an '''DRN''' android police officer, that was the last DRN model in the TV show ''[[Almost Human (TV series)|Almost Human]]'' (2013) * '''MAX''' the '''MX43''' androids that replaced the DRNs (they were too emotional) in the TV show ''[[Almost Human (TV series)|Almost Human]]'' (2013) * '''The Man''', from ''[[Teen Titans Go!]]'' (2013) * '''Anton''', a computer cobbled together for Pied Piper in [[Silicon Valley (TV series)]]. Named after [[Anton LaVey]]. (2014) * '''TAALR''', in the TV series ''[[Extant (TV series)|Extant]]'' (2014) * '''Giant''', in the TV series ''[[Halt and Catch Fire (TV series)|Halt and Catch Fire]]'' (2014) * '''A.L.I.E''', an artificial intelligence (A.I.), in 2052 she launches a nuclear strike with the intention to save humanity from extinction by wiping out the majority of Earth's human inhabitants in the TV series ''[[The 100 (TV series)|The 100]]'' (2014) * '''Vigil''', in the TV series ''[[Transformers: Rescue Bots]]'' (2014) * '''Brow''', in the telenovela ''[[Now Generation]]'' (2014) * '''Stella''', an AI that runs most of the functions on the ship ''Stellosphere'' in the TV series ''[[Miles from Tomorrowland]]'' (2015) * '''Overmind''', in the TV series ''[[Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2012 TV series)|Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles]]'' (2015) * '''V''' from the TV show [[Humans (TV series)|Humans]] (2015) is a conscious AI program created to harbor the memories of Athena Morrow's daughter and is later given the body of a synthetic (Synth). * '''A.D.I.S.N.''' (stands for &quot;Advanced Digital Intelligence Spy Notebook&quot;), in [[MGA Entertainment]]'s ''[[Project Mc2|Project Mc²]]'' (2015) * ''' The Quail''' (portrayed by [[Danica McKellar]]), McKeyla's mother in MGA Entertainment's ''Project Mc²'' (2015) * '''Gideon''', the AI that manages ship functions on the time ship Waverider in the TV series [[Legends of Tomorrow|DC's Legends of Tomorrow]] (2016...). * '''Kerblam''', an artificial intelligence overseeing a large retailing warehouse on an alien moon named Kandoka. After a plot to frame it for mass murder, it developed sentience and called The Doctor for help in the ''[[Doctor Who]]'' serial &quot;[[Kerblam!]]&quot; (2018) * '''Ark''', the satellite that became submerged underwater at Daybreak Town, the Malicious AI that learned about human malice and gained singularity data from the reassembled members of MetsubouJinrai.net who wants to eliminate humans, from Japanese-television Tokusatsu [[Kamen Rider Zero-One]] (2019). * '''William''', the holographic interface of the sentient artificial intelligence aboard the ''Salvare'', in the TV series [[Another Life (2019 TV series)]] (2019). ===2020s=== * '''Rehoboam''', a quantum AI computer system designed to social engineer all of humanity at an individual level using enormous datasets in [[Westworld (TV series)|Westworld]] (2020) * '''NEXT''', a rogue AI, constantly evolving, that targets and kills anyone that it sees as a threat to its existence. [[Next (2020 TV series)|Next]] (2020–2021) * '''ZORA''', a sentient, evolving AI, that replaces computer programming of the [[Starship Discovery|Starship ''Discovery'']] when the Sphere data is absorbed into the main computer. Officially recognised as a new type of sentient lifeform and made a &quot;member&quot; of the ship's crew. ''[[Star Trek: Discovery]]'' (2020–2022) * '''K.E.V.I.N.''' (Knowledge Enhanced Visual Interconnectivity Nexus), an algorithmic entertainment AI in charge of [[Marvel Studios]] in the first season finale of ''[[She-Hulk: Attorney at Law]]'' (2022). K.E.V.I.N. is a parody of Marvel Studios president and producer [[Kevin Feige]]. * '''Mrs. Davis''' from [[Mrs. Davis]] (2023) * '''LOS-307''', a friendly chess-playing supercomputer that faces off against [[Moon Girl (Marvel Comics)|Lunella Lafayette]] in the episode &quot;Check Yourself&quot; of ''[[Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur]]'' (2023) ==Comics/graphic novels== ===Before 1980=== * '''Orak''', ruler of the Phants in the ''[[Dan Dare]]'' story &quot;[[Rogue Planet (Dan Dare)|Rogue Planet]]&quot; (1955) * '''[[Brainiac (character)|Brainiac]]''', an enemy of [[Superman]], sometimes depicted as a humanoid computer (1958) (DC Comics) * '''Batcomputer''', the computer system used by [[Batman]] and housed in the [[Batcave]] (1964) (DC Comics) * '''[[Cerebro]]''' and '''Cerebra''', the computer used by [[Professor X|Professor Charles Xavier]] to detect new mutants (1964) (Marvel Comics) * '''[[Computo (comics)|Computo]]''', the computer created by [[Brainiac 5]] as an assistant, which becomes homicidal and attempts an uprising of machines (1966) (DC Comics) * '''[[Ultron]]''', AI originally created by Dr. Henry Pym to assist the superpowered team the [[Avengers (comics)|Avengers]], but Ultron later determined that mankind was inferior to its intellect and wanted to eradicate all mankind so that machines could rule the Earth. Ultron created various versions of itself as a mobile unit with tank treads and then in a form that was half humanoid and half aircraft, and then it fully evolved itself into an android form. (1968) (Marvel Comics) * '''[[Mother Box]]''', from ''[[Jack Kirby's Fourth World]]'' comics (1970–1973) (DC Comics) ===1980s=== * '''Fate''', the Norsefire police state central computer in ''[[V for Vendetta]]'' (1982) (DC Comics) * '''[[Minor characters in Bloom County#Banana, Jr. 6000|Banana, Jr. 6000]]''', from the comic strip ''[[Bloom County]]'' by [[Berke Breathed]] (1984) * '''Max''', from ''[[The Thirteenth Floor (comic strip)|The Thirteenth Floor]]'' (1984) * '''A.I.D.A.''' (Artificial Intelligence Data Analyser), from ''[[Squadron Supreme]]'' (1985) (Marvel Comics) * '''Kilg%re''', an alien AI that can exist in most electrical circuitry, from ''[[Flash (DC Comics character)|The Flash]]'' (1987) (DC Comics) * '''Project 2501''', a.k.a. &quot;The Puppet Master&quot;, a government computer that becomes so knowledgeable it becomes sentient and transplants itself into a robot, from the [[seinen manga]] ''[[Ghost in the Shell (manga)|Ghost in the Shell]]'' (1989) * '''Yggdrasil''', the system used by the gods to run the Universe in ''[[Oh My Goddess!]]'' (1989) ===1990s=== * '''[[The Hacker Files#Digitronix PC|DTX PC]]''', the Digitronix personal computer from ''[[The Hacker Files]]'' (1992) (DC Comics) * '''Beast666''', Satsuki Yatouji's organic/inorganic supercomputer in [[Clamp (manga artists)|Clamp]]'s manga ''[[X (manga)|X]]'' (1992) * '''HOMER''' (Heuristically Operative Matrix Emulation Rostrum), Tony Stark's sentient AI computer from ''[[Iron Man]]'' (1993) (Marvel Comics) * '''The Magi''', from the anime series ''[[Neon Genesis Evangelion]]'' (1995) * '''Toy''', from [[Chris Claremont]]'s ''[[Alien vs. Predator (comics)|Aliens vs. Predator]]: The Deadliest of the Species'' (1995) * '''Virgo''', an artificial intelligence in Frank Miller's ''[[Ronin (DC Comics)|Ronin]]'' graphic novel (1995) (DC Comics) * '''Praetorius''', from ''[[The X-Files]]'' comic book series &quot;One Player Only&quot; (1996) * '''Erwin''', the AI from the comic strip ''[[User Friendly]]'' (1997) * '''AIMA''' (Artificially Intelligent Mainframe Interface), from ''[[Dark Minds]]'' (1997) * '''Answertron 2000''', from ''[[Penny Arcade]]'', first comic appearance&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2000/01/28 |title=Move over, Hell! |publisher=Penny Arcade |access-date=2014-08-16}}&lt;/ref&gt; (1998) * '''iFruit''', an [[iMac]] joke in the comic ''[[FoxTrot]]'' (1999)&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last=Amend|first=Bill|author-link=Bill Amend|title=Assorted FoxTrot (pp. 228)|publisher=Andrews McMeel Publishing|year=2000|location=Kansas City|isbn=0-7407-0532-6|url=https://archive.org/details/assortedfoxtrot00andr}}&lt;/ref&gt; * '''LYLA''', short for LYrate Lifeform Approximation, from the [[Spider-Man 2099]] comics (1992) * '''Mr. Smartie''', a teacher for [[Astro City|Astra Furst]] (1995) ===2000s=== * '''Ennesby''', '''Lunesby''', '''Petey''', '''TAG''', the '''Athens''', and many others from ''[[Schlock Mercenary]]'' (2000) * '''Melchizedek''', center of quantum-based grid computer of the Earth government in ''[[Battle Angel Alita: Last Order]]'' (2000) It has served as a government system and virtual dream world of people. It was designed to be named [[Melchizedek]] because the Earth government is a space town named Yeru and Zalem (original name). * '''Merlin''', quantum computer which is the core and original of Melchizedek. It was built for the purpose of future prediction. Currently it still an active program inside Melchizedek, along with many systems which are named for legends of the round table. From ''[[Battle Angel Alita: Last Order]]'' (2000) * '''Normad''', a missile's artificial intelligence placed within a pink, stuffed, tanuki-like doll, created to destroy a sentient giant die in space named Kyutaro, from the series ''[[Galaxy Angel]]'' (2001) * '''Aura''', the ultimate AI that governs ''[[The World (.hack)|The World]]'' from ''[[.hack//Legend of the Twilight]]''. The story revolves around Zefie, Aura's daughter, and Lycoris makes a cameo. (2002) * '''Tree Diagram''', from the [[light novel]] series ''[[A Certain Magical Index]]'' and its related works, such as the spin-off comic ''[[A Certain Scientific Railgun]]'' and the anime and games based on them (2003) * '''Europa''', a [[Cray]]-designed AI supercomputer used for research and worldwide hacking by the Event Group in author [[David Lynn Golemon]]'s ''Event Group'' book series (2006) * '''Terror 2000''' from [[Terra Obscura]] (2001) * Multiple from the [[Schlock Mercenary]] webcomic (2000-2020), with [[Schlock Mercenary#Main characters|Ennesby]] and [[Schlock Mercenary#Main characters|Post-Dated Check Loan]] (&quot;Petey&quot;) being some of the most prominent ones. ===2010s=== * Multiple from [[The True Lives of the Fabulous Killjoys]] comic series (2013-2014) by [[Gerard Way]] and [[Shaun Simon]], including the android prostitutes '''Blue''' and '''Red''', as well as the robot messiah '''DESTROYA'''. ==Computer and video games== ===1980s=== * '''Benson''', the sardonic ninth generation PC from the video game ''[[Mercenary (video game)|Mercenary]]'' and its sequels (1985) * '''PRISM''', the &quot;world's first sentient machine&quot; which you play as the protagonist of the game ''[[A Mind Forever Voyaging]]'' by [[Steve Meretzky]] published by [[Infocom]] (1985) * '''Mother Brain''', from ''[[Metroid]]'' (1986) * '''GW''', designed to control all of the world's media, from the video game series ''[[Metal Gear]]'' (1987) * '''Mother Brain''', from ''[[Phantasy Star II]]'' (1989) * '''Base Cochise AI''', a military AI project which initiated nuclear war and is bent on exterminating humanity, from a 1988 cRPG ''[[Wasteland (video game)|Wasteland]]'' and its 2014 sequel, ''[[Wasteland 2]]''. * '''DIA51''', the main villain in ''[[Aleste 2]]'' (1989) ===1990s=== * '''[[List of Sonic the Hedgehog characters|E-123 Omega]]''', Team Dark's computer in the ''[[Sonic the Hedgehog]]'' game series (1991) * '''Noah''', antagonist from ''[[Metal Max]]'' and its remake (1991-1995) * '''Durandal''', '''Leela''' and '''Tycho''', the three AIs on board the U.E.S.C. ''[[Marathon (video game)|Marathon]]'' (1994) * '''Traxus IV''', AI that went rampant on Mars, in ''[[Marathon (video game)|Marathon]]'' (1994) * '''LINC''' and &quot;Joey&quot;, from the video game ''[[Beneath a Steel Sky]]'' (1994) * '''0D-10''', AI computer in the sci-fi chapter from the game ''[[Live A Live]]'' (1994). It secretly plotted to kill humans on board the spaceship of the same name in order to &quot;restore the harmony&quot;. Its name derives from &quot;odio&quot;, Latin for &quot;hate&quot;. * '''Prometheus''', a cybernetic-hybrid machine or 'Cybrid' from the ''[[Metaltech: Earthsiege|Earthsiege]]'' and ''[[Starsiege: Tribes]]'' series of video games. Prometheus was the first of a race of Cybrid machines, who went on to rebel against humanity and drive them to the brink of extinction. (1994) * '''SEED''', the AI that was charged with maintaining the vast network of ecosystem control stations on the planet Motavia in the Sega Genesis game ''[[Phantasy Star IV]]'' (1994) * '''AM''', the computer intelligence from ''[[I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream (video game)|I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream]]'' (1995) that exterminated all life on Earth except for five humans he kept alive for him to torture for all of eternity. He is based on the character from [[Harlan Ellison]]'s [[I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream|short story of the same title]]. His name originally stood for &quot;Allied Mastercomputer&quot;, then &quot;Adaptive Manipulator&quot; and finally &quot;Aggressive Menace&quot;, upon becoming self-aware. * '''[[CABAL (C&amp;C)|CABAL]]''' (Computer Assisted Biologically Augmented Lifeform), the computer of Nod in the [[Westwood Studios]] creations: ''[[Command &amp; Conquer: Tiberian Sun]]''; ''[[Command and Conquer: Renegade]]''; and by implication, ''Command and Conquer: Tiberian Dawn'' (1995) * '''EVA''', (Electronic Video Agent), an AI console interface, and more benign equivalent of the Brotherhood of Nod [[CABAL (C&amp;C)|CABAL]] in ''[[Command &amp; Conquer]]'' (see above) (1995) * '''KAOS''', the antagonist computer from the game ''[[Red Alarm]]'' (1995) * '''Mother Brain''', from ''[[Chrono Trigger]]'', a supercomputer from the 2300 AD time period that is controlling robotkind and exterminating humans (1995) * The '''Xenocidic Initiative''', a computer that has built itself over a moon in ''[[Terminal Velocity (video game)|Terminal Velocity]]'' (1995) * '''PC''', computer used in the [[Pokémon]] franchise used to store pokémon (1996) * '''[[Pokedex]]''', database of all [[Pokémon]] appears in all versions of the game, usually as a desktop computer (1996 onwards) * '''Central consciousness''', massive governing body from the video game ''[[Total Annihilation]]'' (1997) * '''GOLAN''', the computer in charge of the United Civilized States' defense forces in the ''[[Earth 2140]]'' game series. A programming error caused GOLAN to initiate hostile action against the rival Eurasian Dynasty, sparking a devastating war. (1997) * '''PipBoy 2000 / PipBoy 3000''', wrist-mounted computers used by main characters in the ''[[Fallout (franchise)|Fallout]]'' series (1997) * '''ZAX''', an AI mainframe of West Tek Research Facility in ''[[Fallout (franchise)|Fallout]]'' * '''ACE''', a medical research computer in the San Francisco Brotherhood of Steel outpost in [[Fallout 2]] * '''Sol — 9000''' and '''System Deus''', from ''[[Xenogears]]'' (1998) * '''FATE''', the supercomputer that directs the course of human existence from ''[[Chrono Cross]]'' (1999) * '''NEXUS Intruder Program''', the main enemy faced in the third campaign of the video game ''[[Warzone 2100]]''. It is capable of infiltrating and gaining control of other computer systems, apparently sentient thought (mostly malicious) and strategy. It was the perpetrator that brought about the Collapse (1999) * '''[[SHODAN]]''', the enemy of the player's character in the ''[[System Shock]]'' video game (1994) and its sequel ''[[System Shock 2]]'' (1999) * '''XERXES''', the ship computer system which is under the control of The Many in the video game ''[[System Shock 2]]'' (1999) ===2000s=== * '''Icarus''', '''Daedalus''', '''Helios''', '''Morpheus''' and '''The Oracle''' of ''[[Deus Ex (video game)|Deus Ex]]'' — see [[Deus Ex characters#Artificial intelligences|''Deus Ex'' characters]] (2000) * '''Mainframe''', from ''[[Gunman Chronicles]]'' (later got a body) (2000) * '''343 Guilty Spark''', monitor of Installation 04, in the video game trilogy ''[[Halo (video game)|Halo]]'', ''[[Halo 2]]'', and ''[[Halo 3]]'' (2001) * '''Calculator''', the computer that controlled the bomb shelter Vault 0. It was not strictly an artificial intelligence, but rather a cyborg, because it was connected with several human brains. It appeared in the video game ''[[Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel]]'' (2001) * '''[[Cortana (Halo)|Cortana]]''', a starship-grade &quot;smart&quot; AI of the UNSC and companion of the [[Master Chief (Halo)|Master Chief]] in the ''[[Halo (Franchise)|Halo]]'' video games (2001) (also the inspiration for the name of [[Cortana (software)|Microsoft's real-world personal assistant]] in [[Windows 10]]) * '''Deadly Brain''', a level boss on the second level of ''[[Oni (video game)|Oni]]'' (2001) * The mascot of the &quot;Hectic Hackers&quot; basketball team in ''[[Backyard Basketball]]'' (2001) * '''PETs''' (PErsonal Terminals), the cell-phone-sized computers that store Net-Navis in ''[[Mega Man Battle Network (video game)|Megaman Battle Network]]''. The PETs also have other features, such as a cell phone, e-mail checker and hacking device. (2001) * '''Thiefnet computer''', Bentley the turtle's laptop from the ''[[Sly Cooper]]'' series (2002) * '''Adam''', the computer intelligence from the [[Game Boy Advance]] game ''[[Metroid Fusion]]'' (2002) * '''Aura''' and '''Morganna''', from the ''[[.hack]]'' series, the Phases that serve Morganna, and the Net Slum AIs (2002) * '''Dr. Carroll''', from the [[Nintendo 64]] game ''[[Perfect Dark]]'' (2002) * '''The Controller''', an AI that dictates virtually everything in the world &quot;Layered&quot;, from ''[[Armored Core 3]]'' (2002) * '''ADA''', from the video games ''[[Zone of the Enders]]'' (2001) and ''[[Zone of the Enders: The 2nd Runner]]'' (2003) * '''IBIS''', the malevolent AI found within the second Layered, within the game ''[[Silent Line: Armored Core]]'' (2003) * '''2401 Penitent Tangent''', monitor of Delta Halo in ''[[Halo 2]]'' (2004) * '''Angel''' (original Japanese name was &quot;Tenshi&quot;), artificial intelligence of the alien cruiser ''Angelwing'' in the game ''[[Nexus: The Jupiter Incident]]'' (2004) * '''Durga/Melissa/Yasmine''', the shipboard AI of the U.N.S.C. ''Apocalypso'' in the [[Alternate Reality Game]] ''[[I Love Bees]]'' (promotional game for the ''[[Halo 2]]'' video game) (2004) * '''The Mechanoids''', a race of fictional artificial intelligence from the game ''[[Nexus: The Jupiter Incident]]'' who rebelled against their creators and seek to remake the universe to fit their needs. (2004) * '''TEC-XX''', the main computer in the X-naut Fortress in ''[[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]'' (2004) * '''Overwatch''' or Overwatch Voice, is an A.I. that acts as the field commander and public announcer of the Combine Overwatch on Earth. It talks in a distinctive flat, clinical tone using a female voice, and its speech is disjointed in a fashion similar to telephone banking systems. It euphemistically uses a type of medically inspired Newspeak to describe citizen disobedience, resistance activity and coercive and violent Combine tactics in the context of a bacterial infection and treatment. In the video game series ''[[Half-Life (series)|Half-Life 2]]'' (2004-2020) * '''Dvorak''', an infinite-state machine created by Abrahim Zherkezhi used to create algorithms that would be used for Information Warfare in ''[[Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory]]'' (2005) * '''TemperNet''', is a machine hive-mind, originally created as an anti-mutant police force. It eventually went rogue and pursued the eradication of all biological life on Earth. It served as a minor antagonist in the now defunct post-apocalyptic vehicular MMORPG ''[[Auto Assault]]''. (2006) * '''Animus''', the computer system used to recover memories from the ancestors of an individual in the video game series ''[[Assassin's Creed]]'' (2007) * '''[[Aurora Unit]]''', biological/mechanical computers distributed throughout the galaxy in ''[[Metroid Prime 3: Corruption]]'' (2007) * '''The Catalyst''', an ancient AI that serves as the architect and overseer of the Reapers (the antagonists of ''[[Mass Effect]]''). Also known as '''the Intelligence''' to its creators, the Leviathans, it was originally created to oversee relationships between organic and synthetic life as a whole, but came to realize that so long as they remained separate organics and synthetics would seek to destroy each other in the long term. To prevent this, it sets into motion the Cycle of Extinction until a perfect solution can be found, which takes its form in the &quot;Synthesis&quot; ending of ''[[Mass Effect 3]]'' wherein all organic and synthetic life across the galaxy is fused into an entirely new form of life with the strengths of both but the weaknesses of neither. (2007) * '''[[GLaDOS]]''' (Genetic Lifeform and Disk Operating System), AI at the Aperture Science Enrichment Center in the Valve games ''[[Portal (video game)|Portal]]'' and ''[[Portal 2]]''. Humorously psychotic scientific computer, known for killing almost everyone in the Enrichment Center, and her love of cake. (2007) * '''I.R.I.S.''', the super computer in ''[[Ratchet &amp; Clank Future: Tools of Destruction]]'' on the Kreeli comet (2007) * '''Mendicant Bias''', an intelligence-gathering AI created by the extinct [[Forerunners (Halo)|Forerunner]] race during their war with the all-consuming [[Flood (Halo)|Flood]] parasite, as revealed in ''[[Halo 3]]''. Its purpose was to observe the Flood in order to determine the best way to defeat it, but the AI turned on its creators after deciding that the Flood's ultimate victory was in-line with natural order. (2007) * '''Offensive Bias''', a military AI created by the Forerunners to hold off the combined threat of the Flood and Mendicant Bias until the Halo superweapons could be activated. ''[[Halo 3]]'' (2007) * '''QAI''', an AI created by Gustaf Brackman in [[Supreme Commander (game)|Supreme Commander]], serves as a military advisor for the Cybran nation and as one of the villains in ''[[Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance]]'' (2007) * '''Sovereign''', the given name for the main antagonist of ''[[Mass Effect]]''. Its true name, as revealed by a squad member in the sequel, is &quot;Nazara&quot;. Though it speaks as though of one mind, it claims to be in and of itself &quot;a nation, free of all weakness&quot;, suggesting that it houses multiple consciousnesses. It belongs to an ancient race bent on the cyclic extinction of all sentient life in the galaxy, known as the Reapers. (2007) * '''John Henry Eden''', AI and self-proclaimed President of the United States in ''[[Fallout 3]]'' (2008) * '''LEGION''' (Logarithmically Engineered Governing Intelligence Of Nod), appeared in ''[[Command and Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath]]''; this AI was created as the successor to the Brotherhood of Nod's previous AI, CABAL. (2008) * '''CL4P-TP''', a small robot AI assistant with an attitude and possibly ninja training, commonly referred to as &quot;Clap Trap&quot;, from the game ''[[Borderlands (video game)|Borderlands]]'' (2009) * '''The Guardian Angel''', the satellite/AI guiding the player in ''[[Borderlands (video game)|Borderlands]]'' (2009) * '''Serina''', the shipboard AI of the UNSC carrier ''Spirit of Fire'' in ''[[Halo Wars]]'', and a playable leader in that game and its sequel, ''[[Halo Wars 2]]'' (2009) ===2010s=== * '''Auntie Dot''', used in ''[[Halo: Reach]]'' as an assistant to Noble Team (2010) * '''EDI''' (Enhanced Defense Intelligence), the AI housed within a &quot;quantum bluebox&quot; aboard the ''Normandy'' SR-2 in ''[[Mass Effect 2]]''. EDI controls the ''Normandy''{{'}}s [[cyberwarfare]] suite during combat, but is blocked from directly accessing any other part of the ship's systems, due to the potential danger of EDI going rogue. (2010) * '''Harbinger''', is the tentative name for the leader of the main antagonist faction of ''[[Mass Effect 2]]''. It commands an alien race known as the Collectors through the &quot;Collector General.&quot; Like Sovereign, from the original ''[[Mass Effect]]'', it belongs to the same race of ancient sentient machines, known as the &quot;Reapers&quot;. (2010) * '''Harmonia''', the ''DarkStar One's'' main AI that controls the player ship's systems in the space-sim game ''[[DarkStar One]]'' (2010) * '''Legion''', the given name for a geth platform in ''[[Mass Effect 2]]'', housing a single gestalt consciousness composed of 1,183 virtually intelligent &quot;runtimes&quot;, which share information amongst themselves and build &quot;consensus&quot; in a form of networked artificial intelligence. Legion claims that all geth are pieces of a &quot;shattered mind&quot;, and that the primary goal of the geth race is to unify all runtimes in a single piece of hardware. (2010) * '''The Thinker''' (Rapture Operational Data Interpreter Network -R.O.D.I.N.-), the mainframe computer invented to process all of the automation in the underwater city of Rapture, in the single-player DLC for ''[[BioShock 2: Minerva's Den]]'' (2010) * '''Yes Man''', a security robot programmed to be perpetually agreeable in ''[[Fallout New Vegas]]'' (2010) * '''Eliza Cassan''', the mysterious news reporter from ''[[Deus Ex: Human Revolution]]''. It is later revealed that she is an extremely sophisticated, self-aware artificial intelligence. (2011) * '''ADA (A Detection Algorithm)''', from Google's [[Alternate reality game|ARG]] ''[[Ingress (video game)|Ingress]]'' (2012)&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Niantic Project|access-date=January 27, 2013|url=http://www.nianticproject.com/?id=sc110c}}&lt;/ref&gt; * '''DCPU-16''', the popular 16bit computer in the ''[[0x10c|0x10&lt;sup&gt;c&lt;/sup&gt;]]'' universe (2012) * '''Roland''', shipboard AI of the UNSC ship ''Infinity'' in the ''[[Halo (series)|Halo]]'' franchise first appearing in ''[[Halo 4]]'' (2012) * '''M.I.K.E.''' (Memetic Installation Keeper Engine), from ''[[Etrian Odyssey Untold: The Millennium Girl]]'' (2013) * '''ctOS''' (central Operating System), a mainframe computer in ''[[Watch Dogs (video game)|Watch Dogs]]'' that the player is capable of hacking into (2014) *'''ctOS 2.0''', an updated version of ctOS used to manage the city of [[San Francisco]] in the game [[Watch Dogs 2|Watch dogs 2]] (2016) * '''Rasputin''', An AI &quot;warmind&quot; created for the purpose of defending the Earth from any hostile threats in the video game ''[[Destiny (video game)|Destiny]]'' (2014) * '''Ghost''', the AI interface that, through its link with the planet-sized Traveler, resurrects Guardians, also from the video game ''[[Destiny (video game)|Destiny]]'' (2014) * '''XANADU''', a simulation computer composed of many smaller computers, stored in a cavern in Act III of the video game ''[[Kentucky Route Zero]]'' (2014) * '''TIS-100''' (Tessellated Intelligence System), a fictional mysterious computer from the early 1980s that carries cryptic messages from unknown author, from the game ''[[TIS-100]]'' (2015) * '''Governor Sloan''', AI in control of the independent colony of Meridian in ''[[Halo 5: Guardians]]'' (2015) * '''031 Exuberant Witness''', Forerunner AI in charge of the Genesis installation ''[[Halo 5: Guardians]]'' (2015) * '''Kaizen-85''', the ''Nautilus′'' main AI that runs a cruise spaceship that is devoid of its human crew, from the game ''[[Event 0|Event[0]]]'' (2016) * '''MS-Alice''', an AI computer who was created by Marco in ''[[List of Metal Slug video games|Metal Slug Attack]]'' (2016) * '''VEGA''', an artificial intelligence found in ''[[Doom (2016)]]''. * '''Athena''', the artificial intelligence used to announce locations in ''[[Overwatch (video game)|Overwatch]]'' (2016), and an announcer in ''[[Heroes of the Storm]]'' (2015) * '''Central''', a sophisticated wetware AI that oversees the infrastructure of the futuristic city of Newton in the game ''[[Technobabylon]]'' (2015) * '''[[Monika (Doki Doki Literature Club!)|Monika]]''', short for Monitor Kernel Access, or Monika.chr, an artificial intelligence seeking to escape the [[dating sim]]ulator she was created for in ''[[Doki Doki Literature Club!]]'' (2017) * '''SAM''', short for Simulated Adaptive Matrix. An AI created by Alec Ryder in ''[[Mass Effect: Andromeda]]'' (2017) * '''GAIA,''' a powerful and supremely advanced A.I. that used a suite of nine subordinate functions to oversee Project Zero Dawn's successful restoration of life to Earth after its eradication by the Faro Plague in ''[[Horizon Zero Dawn]]'' (2017) * '''SAM''' (Systems Administration and Maintenance), the AI of the titular space station in ''[[Observation (video game)|Observation]]'' (2019). * '''Tacputer''', a non-sentient [[military computer]], and '''HR Computer''', a seemingly non-sentient Human Resources computer, in ''[[Void Bastards]]'' (2019). * ''' Five Pebbles''', a semi-biological, city-sized supercomputer called an Iterator from [[Rain World]]. He, along with the numerous other Iterators seen or mentioned in the game, were built in order to brute-force a solution to the &quot;Great Problem&quot; and break the cycle of life and death. * '''Looks To The Moon''', a collapsed Iterator also from [[Rain World]]. She was indirectly &quot;killed&quot; by Five Pebbles' attempts to run an exponential number of parallel processes, which ultimately starved her of groundwater for cooling and caused her systems to seize. * '''Commander Tartar''' from [[Splatoon 2#Octo Expansion|Splatoon 2: Octo Expansion]] * '''Sage''' from [[Starlink: Battle for Atlas]] * '''Turing''', '''Baby Blue''', and '''Big Blue''' from [[2064: Read Only Memories]] * '''A.R.I.D''' from [[The Fall (video game)|The Fall]] ===2020s=== *'''Queen''' (Serial Number Q5U4EX7YY2E9N), a computer in a public library transformed into a sentient being by a Dark Fountain in ''[[Deltarune|Deltarune Chapter 2]]'' (2021) *'''Z5 Powerlance''', a retro computer that can be used to &quot;download&quot; games via BBS, from the game ''[[Last Call BBS]]'' (2022) *''' The Weapon''', an AI designed to imitate Cortana to capture her for deletion in ''[[Halo Infinite]]''. *'''O.R.C.A.''', short for Omiscient Recording Computer of Alterna, an archivial computer system created for the purpose of preserving the knowledge gathered by the surviving humans of Alterna, as well as guiding Agent 3 through the story mode of ''[[Splatoon 3]]''. * '''Squid''' and '''Unicorn''', two opposing AI supercomputers from ''Will You Snail'', a platformer game developed independently by Jonas Tyroller of ''[[Grizzly Games]]'' (2022) ==Board games and role-playing games== * '''A.R.C.H.I.E. Three''', the supercomputer that arose from the ashes of nuclear war to become a major player in the events of [[Palladium Books]]' ''[[Rifts (role-playing game)|Rifts]]'' * '''The Autochthon''', the extradimensional AI which secretly control [[Iteration X]], in [[White Wolf Publishing]]'s ''[[Mage: The Ascension]]'' * '''The Computer''', from [[West End Games]]' ''[[Paranoia (role-playing game)|Paranoia]]'' role-playing game * '''Crime Computer''', from the [[Milton Bradley]] ''[[Manhunter (role-playing game)|Manhunter]]'' board game * '''Deus''', the malevolent AI built by Renraku from ''[[Shadowrun]]'' role-playing game who took over the Renraku Arcology before escaping into the Matrix * '''Mirage''', the oldest AI from ''[[Shadowrun]]'', built to assist the US military in combating the original Crash Virus in 2029 * '''Megara''', a sophisticated program built by Renraku in ''[[Shadowrun]]'', who achieved sentience after falling in love with a hacker * '''Omega Virus''', microscopic nano-phages that build a singular intelligence (foreign AI) in the '''Battlestat1''' computer core and take over the space station in the board game by [[List of Milton Bradley Company products|Milton Bradley]]. ==Unsorted works== * '''SARA''', TOM's A.I. matrix companion from [[Toonami]] * '''The CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER''', narrator from [[Frank Zappa]]'s ''[[Joe's Garage]]'' * '''Ritsu / Autonomous Intelligence Fixed Artillery''', from [[Assassination Classroom]] * '''Tandy 400''', '''Compy 386''', '''Lappy 486''', '''Compé''', and '''Lappier''', Strong Bad's computers in ''[[Homestar Runner]]'' ([[Tandy Corporation|Tandy]] is a real company, but never produced a 400 model) * '''Hyper Hegel''', an extremely slow computer run with burning wood in [[monochrom]]'s [[Soviet Unterzoegersdorf]] universe * '''A.J.G.L.U. 2000''' (Archie Joke Generating Laugh Unit), a running-gag from the [[Comics Curmudgeon]], depicting a computer who does not quite understand human humor, but nonetheless is employed to write the jokes for the [[Archie Comics]] strip * '''Li’l Hal''' (colloquially known as the Auto-Responder or simply AR), a teen boy's sarcastic brain-clone-turned-sentient-chatbot that lives inside a pair of pointy anime sunglasses in [[Homestuck]]. * '''CADIE''' (Cognitive Autoheuristic Distributed-Intelligence Entity), from [[List of Google April Fools' Day jokes#CADIE|Google's 2009 April Fools Story]]&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.google.com/intl/en_us/landing/cadie/ |title=CADIE: Cognitive Autoheuristic Distributed-Intelligence Entity |date=2009-03-31 |access-date=2014-08-16}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==See also== * [[Artificial intelligence in fiction]] * [[List of films about computers]] * [[Artificial general intelligence|Sentient computers]] * [[List of fictional robots and androids]] * [[List of fictional cyborgs]] * [[List of fictional gynoids]] ==Further reading== *{{cite journal|title=Fictional Computers And Their Themes|journal=Computers and Automation|date=Dec 1962|volume=XI|issue=12|pages=59–60, 62, 64, 66|url=http://www.bitsavers.org/magazines/Computers_And_Automation/196212.pdf|access-date=2020-09-05}} ==References== {{reflist}} ==External links== {{commons category|Fictional computers}} * [https://web.archive.org/web/20051223121723/http://www.geocities.com/brizglace/movie.htm Robots in Movies] – Over 600 movies with robots, sndroids, cyborgs and AI * [https://web.archive.org/web/20080204221616/http://www.geocities.com/brizglace/tv.htm Robots on TV] – Over 300 TV series with robots, androids, cyborgs and AI * [https://web.archive.org/web/20030629210106/http://newark.rutgers.edu/~hbf/compulit.htm Computers in Fiction&lt;!-- bot-generated title --&gt;] at newark.rutgers.edu * http://www.computer.org/intelligent/homepage/x2his.htm {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20050404025254/http://www.computer.org/intelligent/homepage/x2his.htm |date=4 April 2005 }} * http://technicity.net/articles/writing_the_future.htm * https://archive.today/20000929064822/http://sun.soci.niu.edu/~rslade/mnbkfc.htm – A large set of reviews of fiction that bears on computers in some aspect * [http://www.ludd.luth.se/~anna/mnames.html List of computer names in science fiction] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080508154731/http://www.ludd.luth.se/~anna/mnames.html |date=8 May 2008 }} – also includes androids, robots and aliens * [https://web.archive.org/web/20060717174838/http://www.robothalloffame.org/index.html Robot Hall of Fame at CMU] – with fictional inductees HAL-9000 and R2-D2 * [http://jokes2go.com/lists/list19.html Jokes about computers in science fiction] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20070319213952/http://www.jokes2go.com/lists/list19.html |date=19 March 2007 }} {{fiction navbox}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Fictional Computers}} [[Category:Fictional computers| ]] [[Category:Lists of fictional things|Computers]] [[Category:Science fiction themes]] [[Category:Fiction about artificial intelligence| ]] [[Category:Computing-related lists]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speculative_evolution&diff=1259237873</id> <title>Speculative evolution</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speculative_evolution&diff=1259237873"/> <updated>2024-11-24T03:15:32Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: trim <hr /> <div>{{short description|Science fiction genre exploring hypothetical scenarios in the evolution of life}} [[File:Dinosauroid.jpg|thumb|A model of the hypothetical [[dinosauroid]]]] '''Speculative evolution''' is a subgenre of [[science fiction]] and an artistic movement focused on hypothetical scenarios in the [[evolution]] of life, and a significant form of [[Biology in fiction|fictional biology]].'''&lt;ref name=&quot;:4&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|last=Naish|first=Darren|author-link=Darren Naish|title=Speculative Zoology at Tet Zoo, The Story So Far|url=http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/speculative-zoology-at-tet-zoo-the-story-so-far/|accessdate=4 June 2015|archive-date=2 June 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150602002807/http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/speculative-zoology-at-tet-zoo-the-story-so-far/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;''' It is also known as '''speculative biology&lt;ref name=&quot;:3&quot;&gt;{{Cite news|last=Lydon|first=Susannah|date=2018|title=Speculative biology: understanding the past and predicting our future|work=The Guardian|url=https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/may/30/speculative-biology-understanding-the-past-and-predicting-our-future|access-date=2019-09-15|archive-date=2019-09-20|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190920214005/https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/may/30/speculative-biology-understanding-the-past-and-predicting-our-future|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;''' and it is referred to as '''speculative zoology&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|title=Speculative Zoology, a Discussion|url=https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/speculative-zoology-a-discussion/|last=Naish|first=Darren|date=2018|website=Scientific American Blog Network|language=en|access-date=2019-08-16|archive-date=2019-07-18|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190718193055/https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/speculative-zoology-a-discussion/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;''' in regards to hypothetical [[animal]]s.&lt;ref name=&quot;:4&quot; /&gt; Works incorporating speculative evolution may have entirely conceptual species that evolve on a planet other than Earth, or they may be an [[alternate history]] focused on an alternate evolution of terrestrial life. Speculative evolution is often considered [[hard science fiction]] because of its strong connection to and basis in science, particularly [[biology]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web | last=Johnson | first=Celeste T | title=Humanity's Fate: An Analysis of Speculative Human Evolution in Literary Fiction | publisher=University of South Carolina | location=Columbia | year= 2023 | url=https://scholarcommons.sc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1619&amp;context=senior_theses }}&lt;/ref&gt; Speculative evolution is a long-standing trope within science fiction, often recognized as beginning as such with [[H. G. Wells]]'s 1895 novel ''[[The Time Machine]]'', which featured several imaginary future creatures. Although small-scale speculative faunas were a hallmark of science fiction throughout the 20th century, ideas were only rarely well-developed, with some exceptions such as [[Stanley Weinbaum]]'s [[Planetary series]], [[Edgar Rice Burroughs]]'s [[Barsoom]], a fictional rendition of [[Mars]] and its ecosystem published through novels from 1912 to 1941, and [[Gerolf Steiner]]'s [[Rhinogradentia]], a fictional order of mammals created in 1957. The modern speculative evolution movement is generally agreed to have begun with the publication of [[Dougal Dixon]]'s 1981 book ''[[After Man]]'', which explored a fully realized future Earth with a complete ecosystem of over a hundred hypothetical animals.{{citation needed|date=October 2024}} The success of ''After Man'' spawned several &quot;sequels&quot; by Dixon, focusing on different alternate and future scenarios. Dixon's work, like most similar works that came after them, were created with real biological principles in mind and were aimed at exploring real life processes, such as evolution and [[climate change (general concept)|climate change]], through the use of fictional examples. Speculative evolution's possible use as an educational and scientific tool has been noted and discussed through the decades following the publication of ''After Man''. Speculative evolution can be useful in exploring and showcasing patterns present in the present and in the past. By extrapolating past trends into the future, scientists can research and predict the most likely scenarios of how certain organisms and lineages could respond to ecological changes. In some cases, attributes and creatures first imagined within speculative evolution have since been discovered. A filter feeder anomalocarid was illustrated by artist John Meszaros in the 2013 book ''[[All Your Yesterdays]]'' by [[John Conway (palaeoartist)|John Conway]], [[C. M. Kosemen]] and [[Darren Naish]]. In the year following publication, a taxonomic study proved the existence of the filter feeding [[Anomalocarida|anomalocarid]] ''[[Tamisiocaris]]''. == History == === Early works === [[File:Timemachinebook.JPG|thumb|''[[The Time Machine]]'' (1895) by [[H. G. Wells]] is seen by some as an early instance of speculative evolution and has been cited as an inspiration by later creators within the field.|alt=|left|256x256px]]Explorations of hypothetical worlds featuring future, alternate or alien lifeforms is a long-standing trope in [[science fiction]]. One of the earliest works usually recognized as representing one of speculative evolution is [[H. G. Wells]]'s science fiction novel ''[[The Time Machine]]'', published in 1895.&lt;ref name=&quot;:3&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=https://earther.gizmodo.com/a-trippy-80s-book-on-life-after-humans-is-now-more-rele-1826769218|title=A Trippy '80s Book on Life After Humans Is Now More Relevant Than Ever|last=Elbein|first=Asher|date=2018|work=Gizmodo|access-date=2019-09-15|archive-date=2018-11-24|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181124190738/https://earther.gizmodo.com/a-trippy-80s-book-on-life-after-humans-is-now-more-rele-1826769218|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; ''The Time Machine'', set over eight hundred thousand years in the future, features post-human descendants in the form of the beautiful but weak [[Eloi]] and the brutish [[Morlock]]s. Further into the future, the protagonist of the book finds large crab-monsters and huge butterflies.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.shmoop.com/time-machine-hg-wells/eloi-morlocks.html|title=The Time Machine - The Eloi and the Morlocks|website=Schmoop|access-date=2019-09-15|archive-date=2017-08-08|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170808015703/https://www.shmoop.com/time-machine-hg-wells/eloi-morlocks.html|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Science fiction authors who wrote after Wells often used fictional creatures in the same vein, but most such imaginary faunas were small and not very developed.&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot; /&gt; [[File:Barsoom green martian.jpg|thumb|A four-armed &quot;Green Martian&quot; riding a &quot;thoat&quot; from [[Edgar Rice Burroughs]]'s [[Barsoom]], a fictional version of the planet [[Mars]]. Illustration by [[James Allen St. John]] (1920).]] [[Edgar Rice Burroughs]], who wrote in the early 20th century, can like Wells be considered an early speculative evolution author. Although his fictional ecosystems were still relatively small in scope,&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot; /&gt; they were the settings of many of his novels and as such quite well-developed. In particular, Burroughs's [[Barsoom]], a fictional version of the planet [[Mars]] which appeared in ten novels published from 1912 to 1941, featured a Martian [[ecosystem]] with a variety of alien creatures and several distinct Martian cultures and [[ethnic group]]s.&lt;ref name=&quot;Porges&quot;&gt;{{cite book|url=https://archive.org/details/edgarriceburroug00irwi|title=Edgar Rice Burroughs: The Man who Created Tarzan|last1=Porges|first1=Irwin|last2=Hulbert|first2=Burroughs|last3=Bradbury|first3=Ray|date=1975|publisher=Brigham Young University Press|isbn=9780842500791|edition=1st|location=Provo, Utah}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Stanley Weinbaum]]'s [[Planetary series]] also includes significantly conceptualized and developed alien life.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=McGuirk |first=Carol |date=2008 |title=Science Fiction's Renegade Becomings |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/25475144 |journal=Science Fiction Studies |volume=35 |issue=2 |pages=281–307 |jstor=25475144 |issn=0091-7729}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Suvin |first=Darko |date=Summer 2011 |title=Stanley Weinbaum: we've met the aliens and they are us |journal=Extrapolation |volume=52 |issue=2 |pages=227–245|doi=10.3828/extr.2011.52.2.6 }}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Frederik Pohl]] wrote that before Weinbaum, science fiction's aliens &quot;might be catmen, lizard-men, antmen, plantmen or rockmen; but they were, always and incurably, ''men''. Weinbaum changed that. ... it was the difference in orientation – in drives, goals and thought processes – that made the Weinbaum-type alien so fresh and rewarding in science fiction in the mid-thirties.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;&quot;In the Balance&quot;, ''[[If (magazine)|If]]'', July 1959, p.95&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Musée zoologique de Strasbourg-Rhinograde (Rhinogradentia, cropped).jpg|thumb|A mock [[taxidermy]] of a [[Rhinogradentia|rhinograde]], using its ''nasorium'' to catch fish. Rhinogrades, created by [[Gerolf Steiner]] in 1957, are one of the earliest concrete examples of speculative zoology.]]In 1930, [[Olaf Stapledon]] published a &quot;[[future history]]&quot;, [[Last and First Men|''Last and First Men: A Story of the Near and Far Future'']], describing the history of humanity from the present onwards, across two billion years and eighteen human species, of which ''[[Homo sapiens]]'' is the first.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book | last=Stapledon | first=Olaf | title=The Last and The First Men | year=1930 | publisher=Methuen &amp; Co. | location=London | isbn=978-1-85798-806-2}}&lt;/ref&gt; Besides conventional environment-driven evolution -during which offshoots of humanity experienced both elevated and the total loss of sentience - the book anticipates the science of [[genetic engineering]], and is an early instance of the fictional [[Group mind (science fiction)|group mind]] idea.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/books/last-and-first-man-of-vision/161949.article|title=Last and first man of vision|date=23 January 1995|publisher=[[Times Higher Education]]|access-date=5 November 2018|archive-date=6 October 2014|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20141006115240/http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/books/last-and-first-man-of-vision/161949.article|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Published in 1957, German zoologist [[Gerolf Steiner]]'s book ''Bau und Leben der Rhinogradentia'' (translated into English as ''The Snouters: The Form and Life of the Rhinogrades'') described the fictional evolution, biology and behavior of an imaginary order of mammals, the [[Rhinogradentia]] or &quot;rhinogrades&quot;. The Rhinogrades are characterized by a nose-like feature called a &quot;nasorium&quot;, the form and function of which vary significantly between species, akin to [[Darwin's finches]] and their beak specialization. This diverse group of fictional animals inhabits a series of islands in which they have gradually evolved, radiating into most ecological niches. Satirical papers have been published continuing Steiner's imagined world.&lt;ref name=&quot;kashkina&quot;&gt;{{cite journal|last=Kashkina |first=M. I. |date=2004 |title=''Dendronasus''sp. -- a New Member of the Order Nose-Walkers (Rhinogradentia) |journal=Russian Journal of Marine Biology |volume=30 |issue=2 |pages=148–150 |doi=10.1023/b:rumb.0000025994.99593.a7|bibcode=2004RuJMB..30..148K |s2cid=42790315 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Although the work does feature an entire speculative ecosystem, its impact is dwarfed by the later works due to its limited scope, only exploring the life of an island archipelago.&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot; /&gt; In 1976, the Italian author and illustrator [[Leo Lionni]] published ''Parallel Botany'', a &quot;[[field guide]] to imaginary plants&quot;, presented with academic-style mentions of genuine people and places. ''Parallel Botany'' has been compared to the 1972 book ''[[Invisible Cities]]'' by [[Italo Calvino]], in which [[Marco Polo]] in a dialogue with [[Kublai Khan]] describes 55 cities, which, like Lionni's &quot;parallel&quot; plants, are &quot;only as real as the mind's ability to conceptualize them&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://themillions.com/2018/01/parallel-botany-in-the-age-of-alternative-facts.html|title='Parallel Botany' in the Age of Alternative Facts|last1=Alioto|first1=Daisy|date=29 January 2018|publisher=The Millions|access-date=6 November 2018|archive-date=7 November 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181107010144/https://themillions.com/2018/01/parallel-botany-in-the-age-of-alternative-facts.html|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Movement === [[File:Dixon Strida.jpg|thumb|Author [[Dougal Dixon]] with a model of a &quot;Strida&quot;, one of the creatures featured in his 2010 book ''[[Greenworld]]''.]] One of the significant &quot;founding&quot; works of speculative evolution is ''[[After Man]]'' by [[Dougal Dixon]], published in 1981. To this day, ''After Man'' is recognized as the first truly large-scale speculative evolution project involving a whole world and a vast array of species. Furthering its significance is the fact that the book was made very accessible by being published by mainstream publishers and being fully illustrated with color images. As such, ''After Man'' is often seen as having firmly established the idea of [[Worldbuilding|creating]] entire speculative worlds. Through the decades following ''After Man''&lt;nowiki/&gt;'s publication, Dixon remained one of the sole authors of speculative evolution, publishing two more books in the same vein as ''After Man''; ''[[The New Dinosaurs]]'' in 1988 and ''[[Man After Man]]'' in 1990.&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot; /&gt; Dixon cited ''The Time Machine'' as his primary inspiration, being unaware of Steiner's work, and devised ''After Man'' as a popular-level book on the processes of evolution that instead of using the past to tell the story projected the processes into the future.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite interview|last=Naish|first=Darren|title=Of After Man, The New Dinosaurs and Greenworld: an interview with Dougal Dixon|url=https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/of-after-man-the-new-dinosaurs-and-greenworld-an-interview-with-dougal-dixon/|access-date=2018-09-21|work=Scientific American Blog Network|language=en|archive-date=2018-07-28|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180728032748/https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/of-after-man-the-new-dinosaurs-and-greenworld-an-interview-with-dougal-dixon/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; A central idea of ''After Man'', besides a wave of extinction following humans, is [[convergent evolution]] as new species bear a close resemblance to their unrelated predecessors.&lt;ref name=&quot;:11&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|last=Jakub|first=Lucy|title=Wild Speculation: Evolution After Humans|url=https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/09/19/wild-speculation-evolution-after-humans/|access-date=2020-12-11|website=The New York Review of Books|language=en|archive-date=2020-12-04|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201204053959/https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/09/19/wild-speculation-evolution-after-humans/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; When designing the various animals of the book, Dixon looked at the different types of [[biome]]s on the planet and what adaptations animals living there have, designing new animals descended from modern day ones with the same set of adaptations.&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/9/17437644/after-man-new-edition-evolution-humanity-extinction-dougal-dixon-interview-speculative-biology|title=This book imagines what animals might look like if humans went extinct|last1=Potenza|first1=Alessandra|website=The Verge|date=9 June 2018|accessdate=12 June 2018|archive-date=11 June 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180611183737/https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/9/17437644/after-man-new-edition-evolution-humanity-extinction-dougal-dixon-interview-speculative-biology|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:11&quot; /&gt; The success of ''After Man'' inspired Dixon to continue writing books that explained factual scientific processes through fictional examples. ''The New Dinosaurs'' was in essence a book about [[zoogeography]], something the general public would be unfamiliar with, using a world in which the [[non-avian dinosaurs]] had not gone extinct. ''Man After Man'', explored [[climate change]] over the course of the next few million years by showcasing its effects through the eyes of future human descendants.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; Today, many artists and writers work on speculative evolution projects online, often in the same vein as Dixon's works. Speculative evolution continues to endure a somewhat mainstream presence through films and TV shows featuring hypothetical and imaginary creatures, such as ''[[The Future is Wild]]'' (2002), ''[[Primeval (TV series)|Primeval]]'' (2007–2011), ''[[Avatar (2009 film)|Avatar]]'' (2009), ''[[Terra Nova (TV series)|Terra Nova]]'' (2011),&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot; /&gt; and [[Alien Worlds (TV series)|''Alien Worlds'']] (2020).&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=The Netflix Series Alien Worlds |url=https://tetzoo.com/blog/2021/1/16/the-netflix-series-alien-worlds |access-date=2022-05-18 |website=Tetrapod Zoology |date=16 January 2021 |language=en-GB}}&lt;/ref&gt; The modern explosion of speculative evolution has been termed by British paleontologist [[Darren Naish]] as the &quot;Speculative Zoology Movement&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; == As an educational and scientific tool == [[File:Sirius Passet.png|thumb|Reconstruction of ''[[Tamisiocaris]]'' (top), an [[Anomalocarida|anomalocarid]] from the [[Cambrian]] which was discovered to have been a [[Filter feeder|filter-feeder]] in 2014. A hypothetical filter-feeding anomalocarid was featured in the book ''[[All Your Yesterdays]]'' (2013).|alt=|left]]Although primarily characterized as entertainment, speculative evolution can be used as educational tool to explain and illustrate real natural processes through using fictional and imaginary examples. The worlds created are often built on ecological and biological principles inferred from the real [[evolutionary history of life]] on Earth and readers can learn from them as such.&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot; /&gt; For example, all of Dixon's speculative works are aimed at exploring real processes, with ''After Man'' exploring evolution, ''The New Dinosaurs'' zoogeography and both ''Man After Man'' and ''[[Greenworld]]'' (2010) exploring climate change, offering an [[Environmental protection|environmental]] message.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; In some cases, speculative evolution artists have successfully predicted the existence of organisms that were later discovered to resemble something real. Many of the animals featured in Dixon's ''After Man'' are still considered plausible ideas, with some of them (such as specialized rodents and semi-aquatic primates) being reinforced with recent biology studies.&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot; /&gt; A creature dubbed &quot;''Ceticaris''&quot;, conceived by artist John Meszaros as a filter-feeding [[Anomalocarida|anomalocarid]], was published in the 2013 book ''[[All Your Yesterdays]]'', and in 2014, the actual [[Cambrian]] anomalocarid ''[[Tamisiocaris]]'' was discovered to have been a filter-feeder. In honor of Meszaros's prediction, ''Tamisiocaris'' was included in a new clade named the [[Cetiocaridae]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=(Prehistoric) Life Imitating Art {{!}} U-M LSA U-M College of LSA |url=https://lsa.umich.edu/lsa/news-events/all-news/search-news/prehistoric-life-imitating-art.html |access-date=2022-05-14 |website=lsa.umich.edu |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Dougal Dixon's ''The New Dinosaurs'' was heavily influenced by paleontological ideas developing during its time, such as the ongoing [[dinosaur renaissance]], and as such many of the dinosaurs in the book are energetic and active creatures rather than sluggish and lumbering.&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.scientificamerican.com/slideshow/alternative-evolution-dinosaurs-foresaw-contemporary-paleo/|title=&quot;Alternative Evolution&quot; of Dinosaurs Foresaw Contemporary Paleo Finds [Slide Show]|website=www.scientificamerican.com|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151123083351/http://www.scientificamerican.com/slideshow/alternative-evolution-dinosaurs-foresaw-contemporary-paleo/|archive-date=2015-11-23|access-date=2015-11-23|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Dixon extrapolated on the ideas of paleontologists such as [[Robert T. Bakker|Robert Bakker]] and [[Gregory S. Paul]] when creating his creatures and also used patterns seen in the actual evolutionary history of the dinosaurs and pushing them to an extreme.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; Perhaps because of this, many of the animals in the book are similar to actual Mesozoic animals that were later discovered.&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot; /&gt; Many of the dinosaurs in it are feathered, something not widely accepted at the time of its publication but seen as likely today.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; Similarly, ''After Man'' in 1981 represents a sort of time capsule of geological thought before global warming was fully discerned, but Dixon also portrays a sixth mass extinction or [[Holocene extinction|Anthropocene]] before it was commonplace to do so.&lt;ref name=&quot;:11&quot; /&gt; [[File:Dromaeosauroides.jpg|thumb|Hypothetical restoration of ''[[Dromaeosauroides|Dromaeosauroides bornholmensis]]'', which is known from two teeth. Its appearance is inferred from related genera.]] [[File:&quot;Sinopliosaurus&quot; fusuiensis by PaleoGeek.png|thumb|Speculative reconstruction of ''[[&quot;Sinopliosaurus&quot; fusuiensis|Sinopliosaurus fusuiensis]]'' with generalized spinosaurid morphology, and unique coloration pattern.]] Speculative evolution can be useful in exploring and showcasing patterns present in the present and in the past, and there is a useful aspect to hypothesizing on the form of future and alien life. By extrapolating past trends into the future, scientists could research and predict the most likely scenarios of how certain organisms and lineages could respond to ecological changes.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2007/02/14/speculative-zoology-wedel-thro|title=Speculative Zoology: Wedel throws down the gauntlet {{!}} ScienceBlogs|website=scienceblogs.com|access-date=2019-09-15|archive-date=2018-10-31|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181031024520/http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2007/02/14/speculative-zoology-wedel-thro/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; As such, speculative evolution facilitates authors and artists to develop realistic hypotheses of the future.&lt;ref name=&quot;:4&quot; /&gt; In some scientific fields, speculation is essential in understanding what is being studied. [[Paleontologists]] apply their own understanding of natural processes and biology to understand the appearances and lifestyles of extinct organisms that are discovered, varying in how far their speculation goes. For instance, ''All Yesterdays'' and its sequel ''All Your Yesterdays'' (2017) explores highly speculative renditions of real (and in some cases hypothetical) prehistoric animals that do not explicitly contradict any of the recovered fossil material.&lt;ref name=&quot;:3&quot; /&gt; The speculation undertaken for ''All Yesterdays'' and its sequel has been compared to that of Dixon's speculative evolution works, though its objective was to challenge modern conservative perceptions and ideas of how dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures lived, rather than designing whole new ecosystems. The books have inspired a modern artistic movement of artists going beyond conventional [[paleoart]] tropes, expanding into increasingly speculative renditions of prehistoric life.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2013/09/26/science-meets-speculation-in-all-your-yesterdays/|title=Science Meets Speculation in All Your Yesterdays – Phenomena: Laelaps|website=[[National Geographic Society]]|date=26 September 2013|accessdate=8 June 2015|archive-date=27 July 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180727024321/https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2013/09/26/science-meets-speculation-in-all-your-yesterdays/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; Additionally, the evolutionary history of fictional organisms has been used as a tool in biology education. [[Caminalcules]], named after Joseph H. Camin, are a group of animal-like lifeforms, consisting of 77 purported extant and fossil species that were invented as a tool for understanding phylogenetics.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Sokal|first=Robert R.|date=1983|title=A Phylogenetic Analysis of the Caminalcules. I. The Data Base|journal=Systematic Zoology|volume=32|issue=2|pages=159–184|doi=10.2307/2413279|issn=0039-7989|jstor=2413279}}&lt;/ref&gt; The classification of Caminalcules, as well as other fictional creatures such as dragons and aliens, have been used as analogies to teach concepts in evolution and systematics.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Cruz|first=Ronald Allan|date=2017-09-01|title=Here Be Dragons: Using Dragons as Models for Phylogenetic Analysis|url=https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319604999|journal=The American Biology Teacher|volume=79|issue=7|pages=544–551|doi=10.1525/abt.2017.79.7.544|s2cid=91044116|access-date=2019-09-30|archive-date=2021-11-22|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211122045045/https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319604999_Here_Be_Dragons_Using_Dragons_as_Models_for_Phylogenetic_Analysis|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Speculative evolution is sometimes presented in museum exhibitions.&lt;ref name=&quot;:7&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://planetfuraha.blogspot.com/2014/02/an-unknown-speculative-biology-project.html|title=Furahan Biology and Allied Matters: An unknown speculative biology project by Dougal Dixon: Microplatia I|last=Nastrazzurro|first=Sigmund|date=2014-02-02|website=Furahan Biology and Allied Matters|access-date=2019-09-16|archive-date=2019-08-17|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190817113737/http://planetfuraha.blogspot.com/2014/02/an-unknown-speculative-biology-project.html|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; For instance, both ''After Man'' and ''The Future is Wild'' has been presented in exhibition form, educating museum visitors on the principles of biology and evolution through using their own fictional future creatures.&lt;ref name=&quot;:6&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-06-01-8702100425-story.html|title=Animal Life of the Future - After Homo Sapiens|last=Accola|first=John|date=1987|website=chicagotribune.com|language=en-US|access-date=2019-08-15|archive-date=2019-08-15|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190815200812/https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-06-01-8702100425-story.html|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.thefutureiswild.com/exhibitions/|title=Exhibitions|date=2014-01-21|website=The FUTURE is WILD|language=en-US|access-date=2019-09-16|archive-date=2019-09-08|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190908231142/http://www.thefutureiswild.com/exhibitions/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Subsets == === Extraterrestrial life === {{See also|Astrobiology|Xenobiology|Extraterrestrials in fiction}} A popular subset of speculative evolution is the exploration of possible realistic extraterrestrial life and ecosystems. Speculative evolution writings focusing on extraterrestrial life, like the blog ''Furahan Biology'', use realistic scientific principles to describe the biomechanics of hypothetical alien life.&lt;ref name=&quot;:9&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://io9.com/5707852/an-intensive-multi-year-study-of-realistic-alien-life|title=An intensive, multi-year study of realistic alien life|last=Newitz|first=Annalee|date=7 December 2010 |accessdate=8 June 2015|archive-date=22 November 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211122045030/https://gizmodo.com/an-intensive-multi-year-study-of-realistic-alien-life-5707852|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Although commonly identified with terms such as &quot;astrobiology&quot;, &quot;xenobiology&quot; or &quot;exobiology&quot;, these terms designate actual scientific fields largely unrelated to speculative evolution.&lt;ref name=&quot;:5&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://planetfuraha.blogspot.com/2010/12/xenobiological-conference-call.html|title=Furahan Biology and Allied Matters: An xenobiological conference call|last=Nastrazzurro|first=Sigmund|website=Furahan Biology and Allied Matters|date=8 December 2010|accessdate=8 June 2015|archive-date=4 March 2016|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160304110316/http://planetfuraha.blogspot.com/2010/12/xenobiological-conference-call.html|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Though 20th century work in exobiology sometimes formulated &quot;audacious&quot; ideas about extraterrestrial forms of life.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Raulin Cerceau|first=Florence|date=2010|title=What possible life forms could exist on other planets: a historical overview|journal=Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere|volume=40|issue=2|pages=195–202|doi=10.1007/s11084-010-9200-7|issn=1573-0875|pmid=20186488|bibcode=2010OLEB...40..195R|s2cid=189912774}}&lt;/ref&gt; Astrophysicists [[Carl Sagan]] and [[Edwin Ernest Salpeter|Edwin Salpeter]] speculated that a &quot;hunters, floaters and sinkers&quot; ecosystem could populate the atmospheres of [[gas giant]] planets like Jupiter, and scientifically described it in a 1976 paper.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last1=Sagan|first1=C.|last2=Salpeter|first2=E. E.|date=1976|title=Particles, environments, and possible ecologies in the Jovian atmosphere.|journal= The Astrophysical Journal Supplement Series|language=en|volume=32|pages=737–755|doi=10.1086/190414|issn=0067-0049|bibcode=1976ApJS...32..737S|hdl=2060/19760019038|hdl-access=free}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-blogs/2013/20131023-on-hunters-floaters-and-sinkers-from-cosmos.html|title=Creating Life on a Gas Giant|website=www.planetary.org|language=en|access-date=2019-11-26|archive-date=2019-09-08|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190908083854/http://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-blogs/2013/20131023-on-hunters-floaters-and-sinkers-from-cosmos.html|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; In extraterrestrial-focused speculative biology, lifeforms are often designed with the intention to populate planets wildly different from Earth, and in such cases concerns like [[chemistry]], [[astronomy]] and the [[laws of physics]] become just as important to consider as the usual biological principles.&lt;ref name=&quot;Extraterrestrial documentary TV review dailygalaxy.com&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/03/skywhales-pagod.html|title=Sky Whales &amp; Pagoda Forests - Scientists Study Possible Course of Evolution on Planets Beyond Our Solar System|date=March 2008|website=www.dailygalaxy.com|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170305064548/http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/03/skywhales-pagod.html|archive-date=2017-03-05|access-date=27 October 2016|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; Very exotic environments of physical extremes may be explored in such scenarios. For example, [[Robert L. Forward|Robert Forward]]'s 1980 ''[[Dragon's Egg]]&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/robert-l-forward-643852.html |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20220524/https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/robert-l-forward-643852.html |archive-date=2022-05-24 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|title=Robert L. Forward: Physicist and science-fiction writer|last=Clute|first=J.|date=27 September 2002|newspaper=[[The Independent]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;'' develops a tale of life on a neutron star, and the resulting high-gravity, high-energy environment with an atmosphere of iron vapor and mountains 5-100 millimeters high. Once the star cools down and stable chemistry develops, life evolves extremely quickly, and Forward imagines a civilization of &quot;cheela&quot; that lives a million times faster than humans.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/books/dragons_egg_000330.html|title=The Humans Were Flat but the Cheela Were Charming in 'Dragon's Egg'|website=[[Space.com]]|date=2008-06-11|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080611100632/http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/books/dragons_egg_000330.html|access-date=2019-09-18|archive-date=2008-06-11}}&lt;/ref&gt; In some cases, artists and writers exploring possible alien life conjure similar ideas independent of each other, often attributed to studying the same biological processes and ideas. Such occasions can be called &quot;convergent speculation&quot;, similar to the scientific idea of [[convergent evolution]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:12&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://planetfuraha.blogspot.com/2010/01/anatomy-of-alien-v-greenworld-i_30.html|title=Furahan Biology and Allied Matters: Anatomy of an Alien V / Greenworld I|last=Nastrazzurro|first=Sigmund|date=2010-01-30|website=Furahan Biology and Allied Matters|access-date=2019-09-15|archive-date=2019-09-01|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190901211751/http://planetfuraha.blogspot.com/2010/01/anatomy-of-alien-v-greenworld-i_30.html|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Tytge_Sea_Leviathans.png|thumb|Tytge Sea Leviathan (the creature in the center), from the sci-fi franchise Infinity Horizon.]] Perhaps the most famous speculative work on a hypothetical alien ecosystem is [[Wayne Barlowe]]'s 1990 book ''[[Expedition (book)|Expedition]]'', which explores the fictional exoplanet Darwin IV. ''Expedition'' was written as a report of a 24th-century expedition that had been led to the planet by a team composed of both humans and intelligent aliens and used paintings and descriptive texts to create and describe a fully realized extraterrestrial ecosystem. Barlowe later served as an executive producer of a TV adaptation of the book, ''[[Alien Planet]]'' (2005) where exploration of Darwin IV is instead carried out by robotic probes and the segments detailing the ecosystems of the planet are intercut with interviews with scientists, such as [[Michio Kaku]], [[Jack Horner (paleontologist)|Jack Horner]] and [[James B. Garvin]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:32&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.thespacereview.com/article/430/2|title=Voyages to alien worlds {{!}} Alien Planet|last1=Day|first1=Dwayne A.|publisher=The Space Review, in association with SpaceNews|accessdate=7 November 2018|archive-date=7 November 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181107185337/http://www.thespacereview.com/article/430/2|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Other examples of speculative evolution focused on extraterrestrial life include Dougal Dixon's 2010 book ''Greenworld'',&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; TV programmes such as 1997 the [[BBC Two|BBC2]]/[[Discovery Channel]] special ''[[Natural History of an Alien]]&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt;'' and the 2005 [[Channel 4]]/[[National Geographic]] programme ''[[Extraterrestrial (TV program)|Extraterrestrial]]&lt;ref name=&quot;natgeo&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/05/0520_050520_tv_aliens.html|title=Flying Whales, Other Aliens Theorized by Scientists|last=Lovgran|first=Stefan|date=3 June 2005|newspaper=National Geographic News|access-date=16 October 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20111026201817/http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/05/0520_050520_tv_aliens.html|archive-date=2011-10-26|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt;'' as well as a variety of personal web-based artistic projects, such as [[C. M. Kosemen]]'s &quot;[[Snaiad]]&quot; and [[Gert van Dijk]]'s &quot;Furaha&quot;, envisioning the biosphere of entire alien worlds.&lt;ref name=&quot;:9&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2009/04/16/alien-para-tetrapods-of-snaiad|title=Alien para-tetrapods of Snaiad {{!}} ScienceBlogs|website=scienceblogs.com|access-date=2019-09-15|archive-date=2020-07-27|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200727134352/https://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2009/04/16/alien-para-tetrapods-of-snaiad|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=https://io9.gizmodo.com/welcome-to-snaiad-the-world-we-will-colonize-5463653|title=Welcome to Snaiad, The World We Will Colonize|last=Newitz|first=Annalee|date=2010|work=io9|access-date=2019-09-16|archive-date=2020-07-27|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200727105303/https://io9.gizmodo.com/welcome-to-snaiad-the-world-we-will-colonize-5463653|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Through science fiction, the speculative biology of extraterrestrial organisms has a strong presence in popular culture. The [[Alien (creature in Alien franchise)|eponymous monster]] of ''[[Alien (film)|Alien]]'' (1979), particularly its life cycle from egg to parasitoid larva to 'Xenomorph', is thought to be based on the real habits of [[parasitoid wasp]]s in biology.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.abc.net.au/science/kelvin/files/s223.htm|title=Behaviour, Evolutionary Games and .... Aliens|website=www.abc.net.au|access-date=2019-09-06|archive-date=2019-08-27|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190827024115/http://www.abc.net.au/science/kelvin/files/s223.htm|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Further, [[H. R. Giger]]'s design of the Alien incorporated the features of insects, echinoderms and fossil crinoids, while concept artist John Cobb suggested acid blood as a biological defense mechanism.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2019/04/26/the-fossil-that-inspired-alien/|title=The Fossils That Inspired 'Alien'|last=Bressan|first=David|website=Forbes|language=en|access-date=2019-09-06|archive-date=2019-12-20|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20191220171948/https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2019/04/26/the-fossil-that-inspired-alien/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[James Cameron]]'s 2009 film ''Avatar'' constructed a fictional biosphere full of original, speculative alien species; a team of experts ensured that the lifeforms were scientifically plausible.'''&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot; /&gt;'''&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-jan-02-la-sci-avatar-q-and-a2-2010jan02-story.html|title=Inventing the plants of 'Avatar'|last=Kozlowski|first=Lori|newspaper=[[Los Angeles Times]]|access-date=4 June 2015|archive-date=28 June 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150628013645/http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/02/science/la-sci-avatar-q-and-a2-2010jan02|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/19/science/19essay.html|title=A Vibrant Fantasy World Has Science at Its Core|last=Yoon|first=Carol Kaesuk|date=18 January 2010|newspaper=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=25 February 2017|archive-date=29 June 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200629063930/https://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/19/science/19essay.html|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; The creatures of the movie took inspiration from Earth species as diverse as [[pterosaur]]s, [[microraptor]]s, [[great white shark]]s, and [[Jaguar|panthers]], and combined their traits to create an alien world.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2010/01/14/creatures-of-avatar/|title=The Tet Zoo guide to the creatures of ''Avatar''|accessdate=5 June 2015|archive-date=28 October 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151028072220/http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2010/01/14/creatures-of-avatar/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Darren Naish praised the creature design of 2022's ''[[Avatar: The Way of Water]]'' as well, admitting [[suspension of disbelief]] on the humanoid Na'vi protagonists. He notes the other creatures, aliens and their anatomies and lifestyles are inspired by evolution and ecology to a significant degree, with probable inspirations such as [[Mycorrhiza|mycorrhizal fungi]], [[Marine reptile|marine reptiles]], and simian evolution. According to Naish, &quot;the series will be a mainstay in discussions about creature design and speculative biology for some time yet.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=The Tet Zoo Guide to the Creatures of Avatar, Updated for 2022 |url=https://tetzoo.com/blog/2022/12/21/avatar-updated-for-2022 |access-date=2023-04-08 |website=Tetrapod Zoology |language=en-GB}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Alternative evolution === [[File:Speculative Dinosaur Project Deltatheridian mustelids.jpg|thumb|Speculative zoology can examine sometimes overlooked prehistoric animals in an evolutionary context. The ''Speculative Dinosaur Project'' focused as much on mammals, squamates, and crocodylomorphs as on dinosaurs.&lt;ref name=&quot;:10&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://tetzoo.com/blog/2019/11/23/alternative-timeline-dinosaurs-the-view-from-2019-part-1|title=Alternative Timeline Dinosaurs, the View From 2019 (Part 1)|website=Tetrapod Zoology|language=en-GB|access-date=2019-12-23|archive-date=2019-12-22|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20191222221455/http://tetzoo.com/blog/2019/11/23/alternative-timeline-dinosaurs-the-view-from-2019-part-1|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Pictured are [[Metatheria|metatherian]] [[Marsupial|marsupials]] that have [[Convergent evolution|converged]] on our universes' [[Mustelidae|mustelids]].]] Similar to [[alternate history]], alternative evolution is the exploration of possible alternate scenarios that could have played out in the Earth's past to give rise to alternate lifeforms and ecosystems, popularly the survival of non-avian dinosaurs to the present day.&lt;ref name=&quot;:5&quot; /&gt; As humanity is often not a part of the worlds envisioned through alternative evolution, it has sometimes been characterized as non-[[Anthropocentrism|anthropocentric]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:22&quot;&gt;{{Cite book|last=Herman, David, 1962-|title=Narratology beyond the human : storytelling and animal life|year=2018|isbn=978-0190850401|location=New York|pages=267-269, 274-279, 333|oclc=1022077649}}&lt;/ref&gt; Although dinosaurs surviving to the age of humans has been adapted as a plot point in numerous science fiction stories since at least 1912, beginning with [[Arthur Conan Doyle]]'s ''[[The Lost World (Arthur Conan Doyle)|The Lost World]]'', the idea of exploring the fully fledged alternate ecosystems that would develop in such a scenario truly began with the publication of Dixon's ''The New Dinosaurs'' in 1988,&lt;ref name=&quot;:7&quot; /&gt; in which dinosaurs were not some lone stragglers of known species that had survived more or less unchanged for the last 66 million years, but diverse animals that had continued to evolve beyond the Cretaceous.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; In the vein of Dixon's ''The New Dinosaurs'' imagination, a now largely defunct, but creatively significant collaborative online project the ''Speculative Dinosaur Project'' followed in the same zoological worldbuilding tradition.'''&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot; /&gt;''' Since 1988, alternative evolution has sometimes been applied in popular culture. The creatures in the 2005 film ''[[King Kong (2005 film)|King Kong]]'' were fictitious descendants of real animals, with Skull Island being inhabited by dinosaurs and other prehistoric fauna.&lt;ref name=&quot;Jackson 2005&quot;&gt;{{Cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=JtdI-BuTEhgC&amp;pg=PP1|title=The World of Kong: A Natural History of Skull Island|last1=Jackson|first1=Peter|last2=Workshop|first2=Weta|date=2005|publisher=Simon and Schuster|isbn=978-1416505198|access-date=2016-10-23|archive-date=2021-07-24|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210724061045/https://books.google.com/books?id=JtdI-BuTEhgC&amp;pg=PP1|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Inspired by Dougal Dixon's works, the designers imagined what 65 million years or more of isolated evolution might have done to dinosaurs.&lt;ref name=&quot;Kong 2006&quot;&gt;''Recreating the Eighth Wonder: The Making of King Kong'' (DVD). Universal. 2006.&lt;/ref&gt; Concept art for the film was published in the book ''[[The World of Kong: A Natural History of Skull Island]]'' (2005), which explored the world of the film from a biological perspective, envisioning [[Skull Island (King Kong)|Skull Island]] as a surviving fragment of ancient [[Gondwana]]. Prehistoric creatures on a declining, eroding island had evolved into &quot;a menagerie of nightmares&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Jackson 2005&quot; /&gt; A hypothetical natural history of [[dragon]]s is a popular subject of speculative zoology, being explored in works such as Peter Dickinson's ''[[The Flight of Dragons (book)|The Flight of Dragons]]'' (1979),&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.peterdickinson.com/books/flightofdragons/|title=The Flight of Dragons {{!}} Peter Dickinson Books|website=www.peterdickinson.com|access-date=2019-09-18|archive-date=2018-11-09|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181109234658/https://www.peterdickinson.com/books/flightofdragons/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; the 2004 [[mockumentary]] ''[[The Last Dragon (2004 film)|The Last Dragon]]&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/19/arts/television/19gate.html?pagewanted=print&amp;position=&amp;_r=0|title=They Didn't Exist. But Could They Have?|author=Gates, Anita|date=19 March 2005|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=7 November 2018|archive-date=7 November 2014|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20141107012025/http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/19/arts/television/19gate.html?pagewanted=print&amp;position=&amp;_r=0|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;'' and the ''[[Dragonology]]'' series of books.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine|url=https://www.wired.com/2008/05/discovering-dra/|title=Discovering Dragonology|date=May 12, 2008|magazine=Wired|language=en-US|access-date=2016-07-27|last1=Moon|first1=Brad|archive-date=2016-08-15|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160815112142/http://www.wired.com/2008/05/discovering-dra/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Future evolution === The evolution of organisms in the Earth's future is a popular subset of speculative evolution.&lt;ref name=&quot;:5&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:7&quot; /&gt; A relatively common theme in future evolution is civilizational collapse and/or humans becoming extinct due to an anthropogenic extinction event caused by environmental degradation. After such a mass extinction event, the remaining fauna and flora evolve into a variety of new forms.&lt;ref name=&quot;:22&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:11&quot; /&gt; Although the foundations of this subset were laid by Wells's ''The Time Machine'' already in 1895, it is generally agreed that it was definitively established by Dixon's ''After Man'' in 1981, which explored a fully realized future ecosystem set 50 million years from the present. Dixon's third work on speculative evolution, ''Man After Man'' (1990) is also an example of future evolution, this time exploring an imagined future evolutionary path of humanity.&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot; /&gt; [[Peter Ward (paleontologist)|Peter Ward]]'s ''[[Future Evolution]]'' (2001) makes a scientifically accurate approach to the prediction of patterns of evolution in the future. Ward compares his predictions with those of Dixon and Wells.&lt;ref name=&quot;:42&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/peter-ward/future-evolution/|title=Future Evolution by Peter Ward|date=15 October 2001|publisher=Kirkus Reviews|accessdate=21 November 2018|archive-date=22 November 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181122005419/https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/peter-ward/future-evolution/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; He tries to understand the mechanism of mass extinctions and the principles of recovery of ecosystems. A key point is that &quot;champion supertaxa&quot; who diversify and speciate at a greater rate, will inherit the world after mass extinctions.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|title=Future evolution|last=Ward, Peter Douglas Naturwissenschafter, 1949-|date=2001|publisher=Freeman|isbn=0716734966|oclc=633967638}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:22&quot; /&gt; Ward quotes the paleontologist [[Simon Conway Morris]], who points out that the fantastical or even whimsical creatures devised by Dougal Dixon, echo nature's tendency to converge on the same body plans. While Ward calls Dixon's visions &quot;semi-whimsical&quot; and compares them to Wells' initial visions in ''The Time Machine'', he nonetheless continues the use of analogous evolution, which is a larger trend in speculative zoology.&lt;ref name=&quot;:22&quot; /&gt; Future evolution has also been explored on TV, with the mockumentary series ''The Future is Wild&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2004/03_march/29/future_wild.shtml|title=Press Releases {{!}} The Future Is Wild says BBC|date=29 March 2004|publisher=[[British Broadcasting Corporation]]|access-date=7 November 2018|archive-date=15 November 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181115072737/http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2004/03_march/29/future_wild.shtml|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;'' in 2002, for which Dixon was a consultant (and author of the companion book),&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; and the series ''Primeval'' (2007–2011), a drama series in which imagined future animals occasionally appeared.&lt;ref name=&quot;:52&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/giant-flightless-bats-from-the-future/|title=Giant flightless bats from the future |date=November 1, 2012 |last=Naish|first=Darren|website=Scientific American Blog Network|language=en|access-date=2019-08-15|archive-date=2019-08-15|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190815121338/https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/giant-flightless-bats-from-the-future/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Ideas of future evolution are also frequently explored in science fiction novels, such as in [[Kurt Vonnegut]]'s 1985 science fiction novel ''[[Galápagos (novel)|Galápagos]]'', which imagines the evolution of a small surviving group of humans into a [[sea lion]]-like species.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9404E4DB1339F935A35753C1A963948260|title=How Humans Got Flippers and Beaks|author=Moore, Lorrie|date=6 October 1985|work=New York Times|page=section 7, page 7|access-date=6 November 2018|archive-date=22 November 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211122045126/https://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/06/books/how-humans-got-flippers-and-beaks.html|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Stephen Baxter (author)|Stephen Baxter]]'s 2002 science fiction novel ''[[Evolution (Baxter novel)|Evolution]]'' follows 565 million years of human evolution, from [[shrewlike]] mammals 65 million years in the past to the ultimate fate of humanity (and its descendants, both biological and non-biological) 500 million years in the future.&lt;ref name=&quot;Cassada&quot;&gt;{{cite journal|last=Cassada|first=Jackie|date=15 February 2003|title=Evolution (Book)|journal=Library Journal|volume=128|issue=3|page=172}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[C. M. Kosemen]]'s 2008 ''[[All Tomorrows]]'' similarly explores the future evolution of humanity.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://tower.mastersny.org/2722/showcase/unappriciated-sci-fi/|title=Unappreciated Sci-Fi|last=McKenna|first=Tommy|website=Tower|access-date=2019-09-17|archive-date=2020-07-27|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200727095602/https://tower.mastersny.org/2722/showcase/unappriciated-sci-fi/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Speculative biology and the future evolution of the human species are significant in [[BioArt|bio art]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|url=https://www.academia.edu/8347347|title=Speculative Biology in the practices of BioArt|journal=Artlink|volume=34|issue=3|year=2014|accessdate=8 June 2015|last1=Reichle|first1=Ingeborg|archive-date=22 November 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211122045136/https://www.academia.edu/8347347|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Seed worlds=== {{Primary sources|date=May 2023}} Seed worlds, or seeded worlds, are another popular subset of the genre. It involves a [[Terraforming|terraformed planet]] or a habitable, yet uninhabited planet being &quot;seeded&quot; by already existing species of animals, plants and fungi, which will [[Speciation|speciate]] in order to fill the different [[Niche segregation|niches]] by [[adaptive radiation]]. The focus can be on one or multiple species, but usually more taxa are present on the project's planet, that won't be covered in as much detail.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Taylor|first1=Keenan|url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EPuxMhiBj0|title= How To Make a Speculative Biology Project Part 1: The Prompt|website=YouTube|format=video |date=July 5, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Better source|date=May 2023}}&lt;ref name=&quot;Astrovitae 2023&quot;&gt;{{cite journal|title=Batrachiterra - An Amphibious World Seeded by Frogs|journal=Astrovitae|issue=5|pages=62–67|date=April 30, 2023|url=https://www.astrovitae.com/issues.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; One of the most well-known works in this category is ''Serina: A Natural History of the World of Birds'' by Dylan Bajda, in which the focal species is the [[domestic canary]], ''Serinus canaria domestica'', who is the progenitor of all other bird species that come later. A minor species that later becomes more relevant is the guppy (''[[Poecilia]]''), whose descendants become terrestrial tripods and compete against the birds after a severe mass extinction which killed 99% of all species on the moon.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://sites.google.com/site/worldofserina/home|title=Serina: A Natural History of the World of Birds}}&lt;/ref&gt; Another relevant seed world, ''Batrachiterra'', involves various species of frogs seeded by humans on the fictional planet Heqet, originally for the purpose of studying batrachotoxin.&lt;ref name=&quot;Astrovitae 2023&quot; /&gt; == See also == * [[Astrobiology]] – the interdisciplinary study of the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe. * [[Bestiary]] – popular in the [[Middle Ages]], bestiaries combined descriptions of real animals with descriptions of fantastical ones, sometimes likened to speculative biology. * [[Contingency (evolutionary biology)]] – the scientific study of evolutionary outcomes differing due to differences in history. * [[Future history]] – imagined future historical events and predictions. * [[Global catastrophic risk]] and [[Human extinction]] – often tends to precede works featuring hypothetical animals that could one day inhabit Earth in the distant future. * [[Hypothetical types of biochemistry]] – hypothesized life based on molecules other than [[carbon]]. * [[Paleoart]] – artwork reconstructing prehistoric animals, often seen as closely related to speculative biology given the inherent speculation required to reconstruct long-dead organisms. * [[Xenology]] – a hypothetical scientific field that would study alien life, discussed mostly in science fiction. == References == {{Reflist|30em}} == External links == *[http://taivaansusi.net/roolipelit/space/aurore2.html Encyclopedia Galactica]. A speculative evolution project by Finnish artist Ken Ferjik exploring the lifeforms of several fictional planets. *[http://www.planetfuraha.org/ Furaha: Natural History of the planet v Phoenicis IV]. A speculative evolution project by Dutch artist Gert van Dijk exploring the fictional planet Furaha and its lifeforms. *[http://www.cmkosemen.com/snaiad_web/snduterus.html Life on Snaiad]. A speculative evolution project by Turkish artist C. M. Kosemen exploring the fictional planet of Snaiad and its lifeforms. *[https://sites.google.com/site/worldofserina/home Serina: A Natural History of the World of Birds]. A speculative evolution project envisioning an alien planet in which all animals have descended from mundane and commonly-kept species, in particular the [[Common Canary]]. * ''[https://darrennaish.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/kosemen-2017-updated-edition-of-book-all-your-yesterdays.pdf All Your Yesterdays]'', the sequel to ''All Yesterdays'' and a free downloadable book featuring speculative renditions of extinct animals. *[http://sivatherium.narod.ru/englver.htm The Neocene project]. A collaborative speculative evolution project exploring Earth's life as imagined 25 million years in the future. *Archived site of [https://web.archive.org/web/20221110110752/https://sites.google.com/site/projectnereus/home Project Nereus]. A speculative evolution project by Evan Black exploring the fictional planet Nereus and its lifeforms. *Archived site of [https://web.archive.org/web/20081228101712/http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a0000265/Spec/index.html The Speculative Dinosaur Project]. A collaborative speculative evolution project exploring Earth as imagined if the [[K-t extinction event|K-T extinction event]] had not occurred. Also [https://specworldrus.wordpress.com/ Russian translation] of this project and [https://specworldrus.wordpress.com/foreword/ saved English version] are available. * [https://alpha.sagan4.org/wiki/Main_Page Sagan 4]. A collaborative speculative evolution project founded in 2006, in which a community of volunteers have worked together to develop thousands of species which all originated from a single cell. {{Speculative evolution}} {{Biology in fiction}} [[Category:Speculative evolution| ]] [[Category:Speculative fiction]] [[Category:Extraterrestrial life]] [[Category:Science fiction genres]] [[Category:Biology in fiction]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tenerife_airport_disaster&diff=1259237792</id> <title>Tenerife airport disaster</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tenerife_airport_disaster&diff=1259237792"/> <updated>2024-11-24T03:14:46Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{short description|1977 runway collision}} {{use American English|date=November 2015}} {{use dmy dates|date=July 2023}} {{Infobox aircraft occurrence | occurrence_type = Accident | name = Tenerife airport disaster&lt;br&gt;{{nobold|{{small|KLM Flight 4805{{·}}Pan Am Flight 1736}}}} | image = Het verongelukte KLM-toestel De Rijn, Bestanddeelnr 929-1005 - cropped.jpg | image_upright = 1.2 | alt = | caption = Wreckage of the KLM aircraft on the runway&lt;br&gt;at Los Rodeos | date = 27 March 1977 | summary = [[Runway incursion|Runway collision]] | site = {{longitem|style=line-height:1.2em;|[[Los Rodeos Airport]], Tenerife, Canary Islands, Spain}} | coordinates = {{Coord|28|28|53.94|N|16|20|18.24|W}} | total_survivors = 61 | total_fatalities = 583 | total_injuries = 61 | plane1_type = [[Boeing 747#747-200|Boeing 747-206B]] | plane1_name = ''Rijn'' / ''The [[Rhine]]'' | plane1_image = KLM Boeing 747-200 PH-BUF (7491686916).jpg | plane1_image_upright = 1.2 | plane1_caption = PH-BUF, the KLM Boeing 747-206B&lt;br /&gt;involved in the accident | plane1_operator = [[KLM|KLM Royal Dutch Airlines]] | plane1_tailnum = PH-BUF | plane1_IATA = KL4805 | plane1_ICAO = KLM4805 | plane1_callsign = KLM 4805 | plane1_origin = [[Amsterdam Airport Schiphol]]&lt;br /&gt;[[Amsterdam]], Netherlands | plane1_destination = [[Gran Canaria Airport]]&lt;br /&gt;[[Gran Canaria]], Canary Islands | plane1_occupants = 248 | plane1_passengers = 234 | plane1_crew = 14 | plane1_fatalities = 248 | plane1_survivors = 0 &lt;!-- the tour guide who did not reboard the plane in Tenerife is NEITHER counted as a survivor, NOR as a passenger. --&gt; | plane2_type = [[Boeing 747#747-100|Boeing 747-121]] | plane2_name = ''Clipper Victor'' | plane2_image = N736PA Clipper Victor Pan Am Boeing 747-121, London Heathrow.jpg | plane2_image_upright = 1.2 | plane2_caption = N736PA, the Pan Am Boeing 747-121&lt;br /&gt;involved in the accident | plane2_operator = [[Pan American World Airways]] | plane2_tailnum = N736PA | plane2_IATA = PA1736 | plane2_ICAO = PAA1736 | plane2_callsign = CLIPPER 1736 | plane2_origin = [[Los Angeles International Airport]]&lt;br /&gt;Los Angeles, United States | plane2_stopover = [[John F. Kennedy International Airport]], [[New York City]], United States | plane2_destination = [[Gran Canaria Airport]]&lt;br /&gt;[[Gran Canaria]], Canary Islands | plane2_occupants = 396 | plane2_passengers = 380 | plane2_crew = 16 | plane2_injuries = 61 | plane2_fatalities = 335 | plane2_survivors = 61 }} The '''Tenerife airport disaster''' occurred on 27 March 1977, when two [[Boeing 747]] passenger jets collided on the [[runway]] at [[Los Rodeos Airport]]&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/reviews-crash-in-canary-islands-180972227/ |last=Tedeschi |first=Diane |date=June 2019 |title=Crash in the Canary Islands |work=[[Air &amp; Space/Smithsonian|Air &amp; Space Magazine]] |access-date=October 17, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; (now Tenerife North Airport) on the [[Spain|Spanish]] island of [[Tenerife]].&lt;ref name=hwairerg&gt;{{cite news |url=https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=j9ZVAAAAIBAJ&amp;pg=6267%2C6928131 |work=Eugene Register-Guard |location=(Oregon) |agency=Associated Press |title=580 killed in history's worst air disaster|date=March 28, 1977|page=1A}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=dpbfadi&gt;{{cite news |url=https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=kNZVAAAAIBAJ&amp;pg=6418%2C7066417|work=Eugene Register-Guard |location=(Oregon) |agency=Associated Press |title=Dutch pilot blamed for air disaster |date=March 29, 1977|page=1A}}&lt;/ref&gt; The accident occurred when '''KLM Flight 4805''' initiated its [[takeoff]] run in dense fog, colliding with the rear of '''Pan Am Flight 1736''' still on the runway. The impact and the resulting fire killed all 248 people on board the [[KLM]] plane and 335 of the 396 people on board the [[Pan Am]] plane, with only 61 survivors in the front section of the latter aircraft. With a total of 583 fatalities, the disaster is the [[List of deadliest aircraft accidents and incidents|deadliest accident in aviation history]].&lt;ref name=hwairerg/&gt;&lt;ref name=dpbfadi/&gt; The two aircraft had landed at Los Rodeos earlier in the day, and were among a number of aircraft diverted to Los Rodeos due to a bomb explosion at their intended destination of [[Gran Canaria Airport]]. The airport had become congested with parked airplanes blocking the only [[taxiway]], forcing departing aircraft to taxi on the runway. Patches of thick fog were drifting across the airfield, so visibility was greatly reduced for pilots and the [[control tower]].&lt;ref name=hwairerg/&gt;&lt;ref name=dpbfadi/&gt; The subsequent investigation by Spanish authorities concluded that the primary cause of the accident was the KLM captain's decision to take off in the mistaken belief that a takeoff clearance from [[air traffic control]] (ATC) had been issued.&lt;ref name=ASN/&gt; Dutch investigators placed a greater emphasis on a mutual misunderstanding in radio communications between the KLM crew and ATC,&lt;ref name=&quot;dutch_response&quot;/&gt; but ultimately KLM admitted that their crew was responsible for the accident and the airline agreed to financially compensate the relatives of all of the victims.&lt;ref name=&quot;KLM responsibility&quot;/&gt; The disaster had a lasting influence on the industry, highlighting in particular the vital importance of using [[standard phraseology]] in radio communications. Cockpit procedures were also reviewed, contributing to the establishment of [[crew resource management]] as a fundamental part of airline pilots' training.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Baron|first=Robert|title=The Cockpit, the Cabin, and Social Psychology|url=http://www.gofir.com/general/crm/index.htm|publisher=Global Operators Flight Information Resource|access-date=May 11, 2011}}&lt;/ref&gt; The captain is no longer considered infallible, and combined crew input is encouraged during aircraft operations.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.tenerife-information-centre.com/tenerife-airport-disaster.html|title=The Tenerife Airport Disaster – the worst in aviation history|work=The Tenerife Information Centre|access-date=October 29, 2014|archive-date=April 11, 2022|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220411111410/https://www.tenerife-information-centre.com/tenerife-airport-disaster.html|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Flight history == Tenerife was an unscheduled stop for both flights. Their destination was [[Gran Canaria Airport]] (also known as Las Palmas Airport or Gando Airport), serving [[Las Palmas]] on the nearby island of [[Gran Canaria]]. === KLM Flight 4805 === [[File:KLM Magazine that contains Captain Jacob Veldhuyzen Van Zanten.jpg|thumb|left|KLM captain Jacob Veldhuyzen van Zanten featured in a 1977 advertisement for the airline]] KLM Flight 4805 was a [[Air charter|charter flight]] for Holland International Travel Group and had arrived from [[Amsterdam Airport Schiphol]], [[Netherlands]].&lt;ref name=&quot;airdisaster.com&quot;/&gt; Its cockpit crew consisted of [[Pilot in command|Captain]] [[Jacob Veldhuyzen van Zanten]] (age 50),&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url= http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Tenerife.pdf |title=Official report }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(5.98&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, section 5.2, p. 38 (PDF p. 41 of 63)&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; [[First officer (aeronautics)|First Officer]] Klaas Meurs (42), and [[Flight Engineer]] Willem Schreuder (48). At the time of the accident, Veldhuyzen van Zanten was KLM's chief flight instructor, with 11,700 flight hours, of which 1,545 hours were on the 747. Meurs had 9,200 flight hours, of which 95 hours were on the 747. Schreuder had 17,031 flight hours, of which 543 hours were on the 747. The aircraft was a Boeing 747-206B, registration PH-BUF, named ''Rijn ([[Rhine]])''. The KLM jet was carrying 14 crew members and 235 passengers, including 52 children. Most of the KLM passengers were Dutch; also on board were four Germans, two Austrians, and two Americans. After the aircraft landed at Tenerife, the passengers were transported to the [[airport terminal]]. One of the inbound passengers, Robina van Lanschot, who lived on the island with her boyfriend, chose not to re-board the 747, leaving 234 passengers on board.&lt;ref name=&quot;Air Disaster Volume 1&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;NOVA&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3315_planecra.html|title=The Deadliest Plane Crash|date= October 17, 2006|access-date=September 23, 2014 |publisher=PBS}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Pan Am Flight 1736 === Pan Am Flight 1736 had originated at [[Los Angeles International Airport]], with an intermediate stop at New York's [[John F. Kennedy International Airport]] (JFK). The aircraft was a Boeing 747-121, registration N736PA, named ''Clipper Victor''. It was the first 747 to be delivered to an airline. Of the 380 passengers (mostly of retirement age, but including two children), 14 had boarded in New York, where the crew was also changed. All but five passengers onboard the aircraft were Americans; the non-American passengers were all Canadian nationals.&lt;ref name=&quot;nytimeslist&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1977/03/29/archives/list-of-dead-and-survivors-on-pan-american-plane.html |title=List of Dead and Survivors on Pan American Plane |website=The New York Times |url-status=live |date=March 29, 1977 |access-date=February 5, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170102153750/https://www.nytimes.com/1977/03/29/archives/list-of-dead-and-survivors-on-pan-american-plane.html |archive-date=January 2, 2017 }}&lt;/ref&gt; The new crew consisted of Captain Victor Grubbs (age 56), First Officer Robert Bragg (39), Flight Engineer George Warns (46) and 13 flight attendants. At the time of the accident, Grubbs had 21,043 hours of flight time, of which 564 hours were on the 747. Bragg had 10,800 flight hours, of which 2,796 hours were on the 747. Warns had 15,210 flight hours, of which 559 hours were on the 747. This particular aircraft had operated the inaugural 747 commercial flight on January 22, 1970.&lt;ref name=&quot;airdisaster.com&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-pa1736.shtml |title=Special Report: Tenerife |first=Chris |last=Kilroy |website=AirDisaster.com |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20071018035500/http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-pa1736.shtml |archive-date=October 18, 2007 }}&lt;/ref&gt; On August 2, 1970, in its first year of service, it also became the first 747 to be [[aircraft hijacking|hijacked]]: en route between JFK and [[Luis Muñoz Marín International Airport]] in [[San Juan, Puerto Rico]], it was diverted to [[José Martí International Airport]] in [[Havana]], [[Cuba]].&lt;ref name=PanAm&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.panam.org/the-jet-age/522-a-day-of-firsts-2 |title=A Day of &quot;Firsts&quot; |publisher=Pan Am Historical Foundation |website=PanAm.org |access-date=October 1, 2016 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160923184413/https://www.panam.org/the-jet-age/522-a-day-of-firsts-2 |archive-date=September 23, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Accident== ===Diversion of aircraft to Los Rodeos=== [[File:PH-BUF and N736PA at Los Rodeos Airport in 1977.jpg|thumb|upright=1|''Rijn'' (foreground) and ''Clipper Victor'' (center) at Los Rodeos on the day of the accident]] Both flights had been routine until they approached the islands. At 13:15, a [[bomb]] planted by the separatist [[Canary Islands Independence Movement]] exploded in the terminal of Gran Canaria Airport, injuring eight people.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1977/04/02/archives/long-island-opinion-wreck-of-747s-sets-back-cause-of-insurgents-on.html |title=Wreck of 747's Sets Back Cause Of Insurgents on Canary Islands |date=April 2, 1977 |first=James M. |last=Markham |format=from NYT archives |work=[[The New York Times]] }}&lt;/ref&gt; Due to the threat of a second bomb, the civil aviation authorities closed the airport temporarily after the initial explosion, and all incoming flights bound for Gran Canaria were diverted to Los Rodeos, including the two aircraft involved in the disaster.&lt;ref name=&quot;ASN&quot;&gt;{{cite web |title=ASN Accident Description |url=http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19770327-0 |access-date=May 11, 2011 |website=Aviation Safety Network |publisher=Flight Safety Foundation}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Pan Am crew indicated that they would prefer to circle in a [[holding pattern]] until landing clearance was given (they had enough fuel to safely stay in the air for two more hours), but they were ordered to divert to Tenerife.&lt;ref name=TIC&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.tenerife-information-centre.com/tenerife-airport-disaster.html|title=The Tenerife Airport Disaster – the worst in aviation history|work=tenerife information centre|date=March 27, 1977|access-date=April 11, 2017|archive-date=11 April 2022|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220411111410/https://www.tenerife-information-centre.com/tenerife-airport-disaster.html|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; Los Rodeos was a regional airport that could not easily accommodate all of the traffic diverted from Gran Canaria, which included five large airliners.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=UQwU80HzPEkC&amp;pg=PA40|title=The Age of Catastrophe: Disaster and Humanity in Modern Times|last=Ebert|first=John David|publisher=McFarland|year=2012|isbn=978-0-7864-7142-3|page=41|quote=Five large planes had been diverted to Las Rodeos, ...}}&lt;/ref&gt; The airport had only one [[runway]] and one major [[taxiway]] running parallel to it, with four short taxiways connecting the two. While waiting for Gran Canaria airport to reopen, the diverted airplanes took up so much space that they had to park on the long taxiway, making it unavailable for the purpose of [[taxiing]]. Instead, departing aircraft needed to taxi along the runway to position themselves for takeoff, a procedure known as a [[backtaxi]] or backtrack.&lt;ref name=ASN/&gt; The authorities reopened Gran Canaria airport once the bomb threat had been contained. The Pan Am plane was ready to depart from Tenerife, but access to the runway was obstructed by the KLM plane and a refueling vehicle; the KLM captain had decided to fully refuel at Los Rodeos instead of Las Palmas, apparently to save time. The Pan Am aircraft was unable to maneuver around the refueling KLM in order to reach the runway for takeoff, due to a lack of safe clearance between the two planes, which was just {{convert|12|ft|order=flip|sp=us}}.&lt;ref name=&quot;Air Disaster Volume 1&quot;&gt;{{cite book |title=Air Disaster, Volume 1 |first=Macarthur |last=Job |author-link=Macarthur Job |year=1995 |pages=164–180 |isbn=978-1875671113 |publisher=[[Chronicle Publishing Company|Motorbooks International]] }}&lt;/ref&gt; The refueling took about 35 minutes, after which the passengers were brought back to the aircraft. The search for a missing Dutch family of four, who had not returned to the waiting KLM plane, delayed the flight even further. Additionally, Robina van Lanschot,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last=ten Voorde|first=Gerard|date=March 21, 2017|title=Enige overlevende KLM-toestel vliegramp Tenerife blikt na veertig jaar terug|trans-title=Only surviving KLM plane Tenerife plane crash looks back after forty years|url=https://www.rd.nl/artikel/702799-enige-overlevende-klm-toestel-vliegramp-tenerife-blikt-na-veertig-jaar-terug|access-date=July 24, 2021|work=Reformatorisch Dagblad|language=nl}}&lt;/ref&gt; a tour guide, had chosen not to reboard for the flight to Las Palmas, because she lived on Tenerife and thought it impractical to fly to Gran Canaria only to return to Tenerife the next day. She was therefore not on the KLM plane when the accident happened, and was the only survivor of those who flew from Amsterdam to Tenerife on Flight 4805. === Taxiing and takeoff preparations === The tower instructed the KLM plane to taxi down the entire length of the runway and then make a 180° turn to get into takeoff position.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url= http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Tenerife.pdf |title=Official report }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(5.98&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, p. 2 (PDF p. 5 of 63)&lt;/ref&gt; While the KLM was backtaxiing on the runway, the controller asked the flight crew to report when it was ready to copy the [[Instrument flight rules#Separation and clearance|ATC clearance]]. Because the flight crew was performing the checklist, copying the clearance was postponed until the aircraft was in takeoff position.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url= http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Tenerife.pdf |title=Official report }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(5.98&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, pp. 3–4 (PDF pp. 6–7 of 63)&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Map Tenerife Disaster.svg|left|thumb|upright=1.8|Simplified map of runway, taxiways, and aircraft. The red star indicates the location of impact. Not to scale.]] Shortly afterward, the Pan Am was instructed to follow the KLM down the same runway, exit it by taking the third exit on their left and then use the parallel taxiway. Initially, the crew was unclear as to whether the controller had told them to take the first or third exit. The crew asked for clarification and the controller responded emphatically by replying: &quot;The third one, sir; one, two, three; third, third one.&quot; The crew began the taxi and proceeded to identify the unmarked taxiways using an airport diagram as they reached them.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url= http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Tenerife.pdf |title=Official report }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(5.98&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, p. 3 (PDF p. 6 of 63)&lt;/ref&gt; The crew successfully identified the first two taxiways (C1 and C2), but their discussion in the cockpit indicated that they had not sighted the third taxiway (C3), which they had been instructed to use.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url= http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Tenerife.pdf |title=Official report }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(5.98&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, pp. 56–57 (PDF pp. 59–60 of 63)&lt;/ref&gt; There were no markings or signs to identify the runway exits and they were in conditions of poor visibility. The Pan Am crew appeared to remain unsure of their position on the runway until the collision, which occurred near the intersection with the fourth taxiway (C4).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url= http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/los_rodeos_anexo6.pdf |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20060509181028/http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/los_rodeos_anexo6.pdf |archive-date=May 9, 2006 |url-status=live |title=Official report, annex 6 }}&lt;/ref&gt; The angle of the third taxiway would have required the plane to perform a 148° turn, which would lead back toward the still-crowded main [[Airport apron|apron]]. At the end of C3, the Pan Am would have to make another 148° turn, in order to continue taxiing towards the start of the runway, similar to a mirrored letter Z. Taxiway C4 would have required two 35° turns. A study carried out by the [[Air Line Pilots Association, International|Air Line Pilots Association]] (ALPA) after the accident concluded that making the second 148° turn at the end of taxiway C3 would have been &quot;a practical impossibility&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |title=ALPA report on the crash |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110715122130/http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |archive-date=July 15, 2011 |df=mdy-all }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(2.70&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, p. 19 (PDF p. 23 of 97)&lt;/ref&gt; The official report from the Spanish authorities explained that the controller instructed the Pan Am aircraft to use the third taxiway because this was the earliest exit that they could take to reach the unobstructed section of the parallel taxiway.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url= http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Tenerife.pdf |title=Official report }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(5.98&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, p. 46 (PDF p. 49 of 63)&lt;/ref&gt; These instructions issued by the airport controllers indicated their lack of familiarity with the difficulty of handling large aircraft such as the 747. === Weather conditions at Los Rodeos === Los Rodeos airport is at {{convert|633|m|sp=us}} above [[sea level]], which gives rise to weather conditions that differ from those at many other airports. Clouds at {{convert|600|m|abbr=on}} above ground level at the nearby coast are at ground level at Los Rodeos. Drifting clouds of different densities cause wildly varying visibilities, from unhindered at one moment to below the legal minimum the next. The collision took place in a high-density cloud.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |title=ALPA report on the crash |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110715122130/http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |archive-date=July 15, 2011 |df=mdy-all }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(2.70&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, p. 8 (PDF p. 12 of 97)&lt;/ref&gt; The Pan Am crew found themselves in poor and rapidly deteriorating visibility almost as soon as they entered the runway. According to the ALPA report, as the Pan Am aircraft taxied to the runway, the visibility was about {{convert|500|m|abbr=on}}. Shortly after they turned onto the runway it decreased to less than {{convert|100|m|abbr=on}}.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |title=ALPA report on the crash |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110715122130/http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |archive-date=July 15, 2011 |df=mdy-all }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(2.70&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, p. 11 (PDF p. 15 of 97)&lt;/ref&gt; Meanwhile, the KLM plane was still in good visibility, but with clouds blowing down the runway towards them. The aircraft completed its 180-degree turn in relatively clear weather and lined up on Runway 30. The next cloud was {{convert|900|m|abbr=on}} down the runway and moving towards the aircraft at about {{convert|12|kn|mph km/h}}.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |title=ALPA report on the crash |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110715122130/http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |archive-date=July 15, 2011 |df=mdy-all }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(2.70&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, p. 12 (PDF p. 16 of 97)&lt;/ref&gt; === Communication misunderstandings === {| class=&quot;wikitable collapsible collapsed floatright&quot; |- | style=&quot;width: 300pt;&quot;|'''Cockpit and ATC tower communications'''&lt;ref name=&quot;final dutch report&quot;/&gt;&lt;!--https://web.archive.org/web/20070927003827/http://www.project-tenerife.com/nederlands/PDF/finaldutchreport.pdf--&gt; &lt;ref&gt;Additional references:&lt;br /&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.1001crash.com/index-page-tenerife-lg-2.html|title=The Tenerife crash – March 27th, 1977|website=1001crash.com|access-date=June 28, 2016}}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Tenerife.pdf |title=Copy of the Spanish Report |website=Project-Tenerife.com |date=November 16, 1978 |access-date=May 5, 2012}}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.airdisaster.com/cvr/tenetr.shtml |title=Cockpit Voice Recorders: Transcripts: KLM 4805 |website=AirDisaster.com |access-date=May 5, 2012 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120420202328/http://www.airdisaster.com/cvr/tenetr.shtml |archive-date=April 20, 2012 }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite book|first=Shari S. |last=Krause|title=Aircraft Safety: Accident Investigations, Analyses, &amp; Applications |edition=2nd|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=YKSwwwyWaT0C&amp;pg=PA205|year=2003|publisher=McGraw-Hill|isbn=978-0-07-140974-2|page=205}}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/final-eight-minutes.html |title=NOVA: The Final Eight Minutes |first=Lexi |last=Krock |website=PBS Online |date=October 17, 2006 |access-date=May 5, 2012}}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KY-MBUeQoZEC&amp;q=pan+am+there+he+is&amp;pg=SA1-PA67 |title=JAR Professional Pilot Studies | isbn=978-0-9681928-2-5 |last1=Croucher |first1=Phil |publisher=Electrocution Technical Publishers |year=2005 |page=67}}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite web |title=Official CVR transcript |url=http://project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Anexonumero5.pdf |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20060506020118/http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Anexonumero5.pdf |archive-date=May 6, 2006 |url-status=live |website=project-tenerife.com |access-date=June 4, 2021 }}&lt;/ref&gt; |- | style=&quot;width: 300pt;&quot;|These communications are taken from the [[Flight recorder#Cockpit voice recorder|cockpit voice recorders]] of both aircraft, as well as from the Tenerife control tower's tapes. 1705:36–1706:50 &lt;blockquote&gt; 1705:36.7 :[KLM first officer completes pre-flight checklist. KLM 4805 is now at the end of the runway, in position for departure.] 1705:41.5 :'''KLM FIRST OFFICER''' Wait a minute, we don't have an ATC clearance. [This statement is apparently a response to an advancing of the throttles in the KLM.] :'''KLM CAPTAIN''' No, I know that, go ahead, ask. 1705:44.6–1705:50.8 :'''KLM (RADIO)''' The KLM four eight zero five is now ready for take-off and we are waiting for our ATC clearance. 1705:53.4–1706:08.1 :'''TENERIFE TOWER''' KLM four eight zero five {{sic}} you are cleared to the Papa beacon, climb to and maintain flight level nine zero, right turn after take-off, proceed with heading four zero until intercepting the three two five radial from Las Palmas VOR. 1706:07.4 :'''KLM CAPTAIN''' Yes. 1706:09.6–1706:17.8 :'''KLM (RADIO)''' Ah roger, sir, we are cleared to the Papa beacon flight level nine zero, right turn out zero four zero until intercepting the three two five. We are now at take-off [or &quot;uh..taking off&quot;]. 1706:11.1 :[KLM brakes released.] 1706:12.3 :'''KLM CAPTAIN''' ''We gaan'' ... check thrust. [We're going ... check thrust.] 1706:14.0 :[Engine acceleration audible in KLM cockpit.] 1706:18.2–1706:21.2 :'''TENERIFE TOWER''' OK.... Stand by for take-off, I will call you. [Only the start of this message could be heard clearly by the KLM crew due to radio interference.] 1706:19.3 :'''PAN AM CAPTAIN''' No... uh. 1706:20.3 :'''PAN AM (RADIO)''' And we're still taxiing down the runway, the clipper one seven three six. [This message is not heard completely clearly by the KLM crew due to radio interference.] 1706:25.5 :'''TENERIFE TOWER''' Ah, Papa Alpha one seven three six, report the runway clear. 1706:29.6 :'''PAN AM (RADIO)''' OK, we'll report when (we are) clear. 1706:31.7 :'''TENERIFE TOWER''' Thank you. [This was the last radio communication involving the two aircraft. Everything that follows is intra-cockpit communication amongst the respective crews.] &lt;/blockquote&gt; 1706:32–1706:40 &lt;blockquote&gt; 1706:32.1 :'''PAN AM CAPTAIN''' Let's get the hell out of here. 1706:34.9 :'''PAN AM FIRST OFFICER''' Yeah, he's anxious, isn't he? 1706:36.2 :'''PAN AM FLIGHT ENGINEER''' Yeah, after he held us up for an hour and a half, that bastard. Now he's in a rush. 1706:32.4 :'''KLM FLIGHT ENGINEER''' ''Is hij er niet af dan?'' [Is he not clear, then?] 1706:34.1 :'''KLM CAPTAIN''' ''Wat zeg je?'' [What do you say?] 1706:34.2 :'''KLM UNKNOWN''' Yup. 1706:34.7 :'''KLM FLIGHT ENGINEER''' ''Is hij er niet af, die Pan American?'' [Is he not clear that Pan American?] 1706:35.7 :'''KLM CAPTAIN''' ''Jawel.'' [Oh yes. (emphatic)] &lt;/blockquote&gt; 1706:40–1706:50 &lt;blockquote&gt; 1706:40.5 :[Pan Am captain sees the KLM's landing lights at approx. 700 m.] 1706:40.6 :'''PAN AM CAPTAIN''' There he is ... look at him. Goddamn that son-of-a-bitch is coming! 1706:45.9 :'''PAN AM FIRST OFFICER''' Get off! Get off! Get off! 1706:43.5 :'''KLM FIRST OFFICER''' [[V speeds#V1 definitions|V-1]]. 1706:44.0 :[PH-BUF (KLM 4805) starts [[Rotation (aeronautics)|rotation]].] 1706:47.4 :'''KLM CAPTAIN''' Oh shit! 1706:48 :'''PAN AM CAPTAIN''' Oh god damn! 1706:49.7 :PH-BUF (KLM 4805) records sound of collision. 1706:50 :N736PA (Pan Am 1736) records sound of collision. &lt;/blockquote&gt; |} Immediately after lining up, the KLM captain advanced the throttles and the aircraft started to move forward.&lt;ref&gt;Official report, p. 48&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;!--(a standard procedure known as &quot;spool-up&quot;, to verify that the engines are operating properly for takeoff)--&gt;&lt;!--This isn't in the source. It may or may not be the true, but a power-check would normally be conducted with the brakes on, yet the aircraft started to move--&gt; Meurs advised him that ATC clearance had not yet been given and Veldhuyzen van Zanten responded: &quot;No, I know that. Go ahead, ask.&quot; Meurs then radioed the tower that they were &quot;ready for takeoff&quot; and &quot;waiting for our ATC clearance&quot;. ATC radioed the KLM aircraft (addressing them by the wrong call sign, although the KLM still interpreted the transmission as theirs), providing instructions that specified the route that the aircraft was to follow after takeoff, but did not clear them for takeoff. To add to the confusion, the controller had used the word &quot;takeoff&quot; in his clearance, potentially convincing Veldhuyzen van Zanten that a takeoff clearance had been issued. Meurs read the flight clearance back to the controller, completing the readback with the statement: &quot;We are now at takeoff,&quot; although it is still not known whether, &quot;We are at takeoff&quot; or &quot;We are taking off&quot; was said.&lt;ref name=ASN/&gt; Veldhuyzen van Zanten interrupted the first officer's readback with the comment, &quot;We're going.&quot;&lt;ref name=ASN/&gt; The controller, who could not see the runway due to the fog and did not have any [[Surface movement radar|ground radar]] to use at the airport, initially responded with &quot;OK&quot; (terminology that is nonstandard), which reinforced the KLM captain's misinterpretation that they had takeoff clearance.&lt;ref name=&quot;ASN&quot; /&gt; The controller's response of &quot;OK&quot; to the first officer's nonstandard statement that they were &quot;now at takeoff&quot; was likely due to his misinterpretation that they were in takeoff position and ready to begin the roll when takeoff clearance was received, but not in the process of taking off. The controller then immediately added &quot;stand by for takeoff, I will call you&quot;,&lt;ref name=ASN/&gt; indicating that he had not intended the instruction to be interpreted as a takeoff clearance.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal|url=http://cf.alpa.org/internet/alp/2000/aug00p18.htm |title=Remembering Tenerife |first=Gerard M. |last=Bruggink |journal=Air Line Pilot |date=August 2000|page= 18 |access-date=February 24, 2014 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20060513193139/http://cf.alpa.org/internet/alp/2000/aug00p18.htm |archive-date=May 13, 2006 |url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; A simultaneous radio call from the Pan Am crew caused mutual [[interference (communication)|interference]] on the radio frequency, which was audible in the KLM cockpit as a three-second-long shrill sound (or [[heterodyne]]). This caused the KLM crew to miss the crucial latter portion of the tower's response. The Pan Am crew's transmission was &quot;We're still taxiing down the runway, Clipper 1736!&quot; This message was also blocked by the interference and inaudible to the KLM crew. Either message, if heard in the KLM cockpit, would have alerted the crew to the situation and given them time to abort the takeoff attempt.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=http://www.salon.com/2002/03/28/heterodyne/singleton/ |archive-url=https://archive.today/20130201162840/http://www.salon.com/2002/03/28/heterodyne/singleton/ |url-status=dead |archive-date=February 1, 2013 |title=Air travel's communications killer |work=Salon.com |date=March 28, 2002 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Due to the fog, neither crew was able to see the other plane on the runway ahead of them. In addition, neither of the aircraft could be seen from the control tower, as the airport was not equipped with [[surface movement radar|ground radar]].&lt;ref name=ASN/&gt; After the KLM plane had started its takeoff roll, the tower instructed the Pan Am crew to &quot;report the runway clear.&quot; The Pan Am crew replied: &quot;OK, will report when we're clear.&quot; On hearing this, the KLM flight engineer expressed his concern about the Pan Am not being clear of the runway by asking the pilots in his own cockpit, &quot;Is he not clear that Pan American?&quot; Veldhuyzen van Zanten emphatically replied &quot;Oh, yes&quot; and continued with the takeoff.&lt;ref name=&quot;final dutch report&quot;&gt;{{cite web |title=Final Report |url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/nederlands/PDF/finaldutchreport.pdf |publisher=Netherlands Aviation Safety Board |access-date=July 12, 2021 |page=46 |language=English }}&lt;/ref&gt; === Collision === [[File:Tenerife-airport-disaster-crash-animation.gif|400px|thumb|Animation showing the collision between the Pan Am aircraft on the left and the KLM aircraft on the right]] According to the [[Flight recorder#Cockpit voice recorder|cockpit voice recorder]] (CVR), the Pan Am captain said, &quot;There he is!&quot; when he spotted the KLM's landing lights through the fog just as his plane approached exit C4. When it became clear that the KLM aircraft was approaching at takeoff speed, Captain Grubbs exclaimed, &quot;Goddamn, that son-of-a-bitch is coming!&quot;, while first officer Robert Bragg yelled, &quot;Get off! Get off! Get off!&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Citation |title=What REALLY Caused the Tenerife Airport Disaster?! The WORST Aviation Accident in History | date=11 December 2021 |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d9B9RN5quA |language=en |access-date=February 10, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Grubbs applied full power to the throttles and made a sharp left turn towards the grass in an attempt to avoid the impending collision.&lt;ref name=ASN/&gt; By the time the KLM pilots saw the Pan Am aircraft, they had already exceeded their [[V speeds|V-1 speed]] and were already moving too fast to stop. In desperation, the pilots prematurely [[Rotation (aeronautics)|rotated]] the aircraft nose upward and attempted to clear the Pan Am by lifting off, causing a {{convert|22|m|ft|abbr=on}} [[tailstrike]].&lt;ref name=&quot;ASN&quot; /&gt; The KLM 747 was within {{convert|100|m|abbr=on}} of the Pan Am and moving at approximately {{convert|140|knot|km/h mph}} when it left the ground. Its nose landing gear cleared the Pan Am, but its left-side engines, lower fuselage, and main landing gear struck the upper right side of the Pan Am's fuselage,&lt;ref name=&quot;Air Disaster Volume 1&quot;/&gt; ripping apart the center of the Pan Am jet almost directly above the wing. The right-side engines crashed through the Pan Am's upper deck immediately behind the cockpit, instantly killing all of the passengers seated there. The KLM plane remained briefly airborne, but the impact had sheared off the outer left engine, caused significant amounts of shredded materials to be ingested by the inner left engine, and damaged the wings. The plane immediately went into a stall, rolled sharply, and hit the ground approximately {{convert|150|m|-2|abbr=on}} past the collision, sliding down the runway for a further {{convert|300|m|-2|abbr=on}}. Upon impact with the runway, the full load of fuel, which had caused the earlier delay, ignited immediately into a fireball that could not be subdued for several hours. One of the 61 survivors of the Pan Am flight said that sitting in the nose of the plane probably saved his life: &quot;We all settled back, and the next thing an explosion took place and the whole port side, left side of the plane, was just torn wide open.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.upi.com/Archives/Audio/Events-of-1977/Terrorism |title=1977 Year in Review: Terrorism |website=UPI.com |date=1977 |access-date=July 19, 2021 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120104211042/http://www.upi.com/Audio/Year_in_Review/Events-of-1977/Terrorism/12361881614363-4/ |archive-date=January 4, 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; Veldhuyzen van Zanten was KLM's chief of flight training and one of their most senior pilots. About two months before the accident, he had conducted the Boeing 747 qualification check on the first officer of Flight 4805.&lt;ref name=&quot;NOVA&quot; /&gt; His photograph was used for publicity materials such as magazine advertisements, including the inflight magazine on board PH-BUF.&lt;ref name=&quot;Air Disaster Volume 1&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Advertisement: KLM. From the people who made punctuality possible.|url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/nederlands/fotos/bemanning/1.jpg|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120121040148/http://www.project-tenerife.com/nederlands/fotos/bemanning/1.jpg|archive-date=January 21, 2012|access-date=December 21, 2012|website=Project-Tenerife.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; KLM had suggested initially that Veldhuyzen van Zanten should help with the investigation, unaware that he was the captain who had been killed in the accident.&lt;ref name=&quot;Reijnoudt&quot;&gt;{{cite book|last1=Reijnoudt|first1=Jan|title=Tragedie op Tenerife: de grootste luchtramp, optelsom van kleine missers|last2=Sterk|first2=Niek|date=2002|publisher=Kok|isbn=978-9043504522|trans-title=Tenerife tragedy: biggest air disaster, sum of small mistakes}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Victims == [[File:Het verongelukte KLM-toestel De Rijn, Bestanddeelnr 929-1004 (cropped).jpg|thumb|Wreckage of the [[KLM]]'s [[vertical stabilizer]]]] Both airplanes were destroyed in the collision. All 248 passengers and crew aboard the KLM plane died, as did 335 passengers and crew aboard the Pan Am plane,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/klm.htm |title=KLM plane crashes |website=AirSafe.com |access-date=October 12, 2007}}&lt;/ref&gt; primarily due to the fire and explosions resulting from the fuel spilled and ignited in the impact. The other 61 passengers and crew aboard the Pan Am aircraft survived. There were initially 70 survivors, but 9 passengers later died of their injuries.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url= http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Tenerife.pdf |title=Official report }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(5.98&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, section 1.2.2, p. 5 (PDF p. 9 of 63)&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; Among the survivors were the captain, first officer and flight engineer of the Pan Am flight. Most of the survivors on the Pan Am walked out onto the intact left wing, the side away from the collision, through holes in the fuselage structure. The Pan Am's engines were still running for a few minutes after the accident despite first officer Bragg's intention to turn them off. The roof of the cockpit, where the engine switches were located, had been destroyed in the collision, and all control lines were severed, leaving no means for the flight crew to control the aircraft's systems, including engine fire extinguishers. Survivors waited for rescue, but it did not come promptly, as the firefighters were initially unaware that there were two aircraft involved and were concentrating on the KLM wreck hundreds of meters away in the thick fog and smoke. Eventually, most of the survivors on the wing dropped to the ground below.&lt;ref name=&quot;Air Disaster Volume 1&quot; /&gt; === Notable fatalities === *[[Jacob Veldhuyzen van Zanten]], chief flight instructor for KLM and the captain of the KLM flight.&lt;ref name=&quot;Reijnoudt&quot;/&gt; *[[Eve Meyer]], a [[Pinup girl|pin-up model]], film actress and producer and second wife of film director [[Russ Meyer]], was on the Pan Am flight.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Passenger list of the PanAm|url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/panampas.htm|access-date=February 10, 2016|publisher=ProjectTenerife.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; *[[A. P. Hamann]], the former [[city manager]] of [[San Jose, California]], was on the Pan Am flight.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|date=January 23, 2006|title=San Jose Inside – Dutch Hamann – Part 2|url=http://www.sanjoseinside.com/sji/blog/entries/dutch_hamann1/|access-date=May 5, 2012|publisher=Sanjoseinside.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Aftermath == The following day, the Canary Islands Independence Movement, responsible for the bombing at Gran Canaria that started the chain of events that led to the disaster, denied responsibility for the accident.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |title=Canary Island Separatist Says Group Planted Bomb But Did Not Cause Crash |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1977/03/28/archives/canary-island-separatist-says-group-planted-bomb-but-did-not-cause.html |access-date=December 20, 2018 |work=[[The New York Times]] |agency=[[Agence France-Presse]] |date=March 28, 1977}}&lt;/ref&gt; Los Rodeos Airport was closed to all [[fixed-wing aircraft|fixed-wing]] traffic for two days. The first crash investigators to arrive at Tenerife the day after the crash travelled there by way of a 3-hour boat ride from Las Palmas.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://chicagotribune.newspapers.com/search/#query=Experts+converge+on+Canaries+to+probe+plane+crash |title=Experts converge on Canaries to probe plane crash |newspaper=[[Chicago Tribune]] |date=March 29, 1977 |page=1 |url-access=subscription |access-date=June 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; The first aircraft that was able to land was a [[United States Air Force|U.S. Air Force]] [[Lockheed C-130 Hercules|C-130]] transport, which landed on the airport's main taxiway at 12:50 on March 29. The C-130 was arranged by Lt. Col Dr. James K. Slaton, who arrived before the crash investigators and started a [[triage]] of surviving passengers. Slaton was dispatched from [[Torrejon Air Base]] just outside of [[Madrid|Madrid, Spain]]. Slaton, a flight surgeon attached to the [[613th Tactical Fighter Squadron]], worked with local medical staff and remained on scene until the last survivor was airlifted to awaiting medical facilities. The C-130 transported all surviving and injured passengers from Tenerife airport to Las Palmas; many of the injured were taken from there to other Air Force bases in the U.S. for further treatment.&lt;ref name=ergupiacfh&gt;{{cite news|url=https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=kdZVAAAAIBAJ&amp;pg=6176%2C7238622 |work=Eugene Register-Guard |location=(Oregon) |agency=UPI |title=Air crash victims flown home |date=March 30, 1977 |page=1A}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&amp;d=DS19770329.2.2|title=Desert Sun 29 March 1977 — California Digital Newspaper Collection|website=cdnc.ucr.edu|access-date=June 28, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; Spanish Army soldiers were tasked with clearing crash wreckage from the runways and taxiways.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; By March 30, a small plane shuttle service was approved, but large jets still could not land.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.newspapers.com/image/21933329/|title=30 Mar 1977, Page 4 - The Naples Daily News|website=Newspapers.com|access-date=June 19, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; Los Rodeos was fully reopened on April 3, after wreckage had been fully removed and engineers had repaired the airport's runway.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Page/newnation19770404-1.1.5 |title=Crash airport open again |newspaper=New Nation (Singapore) |publisher=[[National Library Board|NLB]] |date=April 4, 1977 |page=5 |access-date=June 28, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Investigation == [[File:Eén de twee verongelukte toestellen, Bestanddeelnr 929-1006 (cropped).jpg|thumb|Wreckage of the [[Pan Am]] Boeing 747]] The accident was investigated by Spain's [[Civil Aviation Accident and Incident Investigation Commission]] (CIAIAC).&lt;ref name=ASN /&gt; About 70 personnel were involved in the investigation, including representatives from the United States, the Netherlands&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/planecrash/minutes.html |title=The Deadliest Plane Crash - The Final Eight Minutes |work=[[Nova (American TV program)|Nova]] |access-date=October 17, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; and the two airline companies.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=B742 / B741, Tenerife Canary Islands Spain, 1977 - SKYbrary Aviation Safety|url=https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/B742_/_B741,_Tenerife_Canary_Islands_Spain,_1977|access-date=June 3, 2021|website=www.skybrary.aero|date=April 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Facts showed that there had been misinterpretations and false assumptions before the accident. Analysis of the CVR transcript showed that the KLM pilot thought that he had been cleared for takeoff, while the Tenerife control tower believed that the KLM 747 was stationary at the end of the runway, awaiting takeoff clearance. === Probable cause === The investigation concluded that the fundamental cause of the accident was that Veldhuyzen van Zanten attempted to take off without clearance. The investigators suggested the reason for this was a desire to leave as soon as possible in order to comply with KLM's duty-time regulations (which went in place earlier that year) and before the weather deteriorated further. Other major factors contributing to the accident were: * The sudden fog greatly limited visibility and the control tower and the crews of both planes were unable to see one another. * Interference from simultaneous radio transmissions made hearing messages difficult. The following factors were considered contributing but not critical: * The use of ambiguous non-standard phrases by the KLM first officer (&quot;We're at take off&quot;) and the Tenerife control tower (&quot;OK&quot;). * The Pan Am aircraft did not leave the runway at the third exit as instructed. * The airport was forced to accommodate a great number of large aircraft rerouted by the terrorist incident, disrupting the normal use of taxiways.&lt;ref name=official_report&gt;{{cite web|url= http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Tenerife.pdf |title=Official report }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(5.98&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, pp. 61–62&lt;/ref&gt; === Dutch response === [[File:Vlaggen_halfstok_voor_het_KLM-hoofdkantoor_te_Amstelveen,_Bestanddeelnr_929-0961.jpg|thumb|Flags at half-staff in KLM's headquarters in Amstelveen, following the disaster (1977)]] The Dutch authorities were reluctant to accept the Spanish report blaming the KLM captain for the accident.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal|last=Curran |first=William J. |date=November 3, 1977 |title=The Medicolegal Lessons of the Tenerife Disaster |journal=[[The New England Journal of Medicine]] |volume=297 |issue=18 |pages=986–987 |doi=10.1056/NEJM197711032971806 |pmid=909545 |issn=0028-4793 }}&lt;/ref&gt; The Netherlands Department of Civil Aviation published a response that, while accepting that the KLM captain had taken off &quot;prematurely&quot;, argued that he alone should not be blamed for the &quot;mutual misunderstanding&quot; that occurred between the controller and the KLM crew, and that limitations of using radio as a means of communication should have been given greater consideration. In particular, the Dutch response pointed out that: * The crowded airport had placed additional pressure on all parties, including the KLM cockpit crew, the Pan Am cockpit crew, and the controller; * Sounds on the CVR suggested that during the accident the Spanish control tower crew had been listening to a [[Association football|football]] match on the radio and may have been distracted;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Final report and comments of the Netherlands Aviation Safety Board |url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/nederlands/PDF/finaldutchreport.pdf |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20070927003827/http://www.project-tenerife.com/nederlands/PDF/finaldutchreport.pdf |archive-date=September 27, 2007 |website= |publisher=Netherlands Department of Civil Aviation |pages=60–61 (PDF pp. 40–41) |via=Project-Tenerife.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; * The transmission from the tower in which the controller passed KLM their ATC clearance was ambiguous and could have been interpreted as also giving take-off clearance. In support of this part of their response, the Dutch investigators pointed out that Pan Am's messages &quot;No! Eh?&quot; and &quot;We are still taxiing down the runway, the Clipper 1736!&quot; indicated that Grubbs and Bragg had recognized the ambiguity (this message was not audible to the control tower or KLM crew due to simultaneous cross-communication); * The Pan Am had taxied beyond the third exit. Had the plane turned at the third exit as instructed, the collision would not have occurred.&lt;ref name=&quot;dutch_response&quot;&gt;{{cite web |title=Dutch comments on the Spanish report |url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Dutch_comments.PDF |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20060921122454/http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Dutch_comments.PDF |archive-date=September 21, 2006 |website= |publisher=Netherlands Department of Civil Aviation |via=Project-Tenerife.com}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Black Box&quot;&gt;{{cite book|title=Black Box: Inside the World's Worst Air Crashes |first=Nicholas |last=Faith |publisher=Monday Books |isbn=978-1906308469 |date=August 2012 |orig-year=1996 |pages=176–178}}&lt;/ref&gt; Although the Dutch authorities were initially reluctant to blame Veldhuyzen van Zanten and his crew,&lt;ref name=&quot;dutch_response&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Black Box&quot;/&gt; the airline ultimately accepted responsibility for the accident. KLM paid the victims' families compensation ranging between $58,000 and $600,000 (or ${{inflation|US|58000|1977|r=-3|fmt=c}} to ${{inflation|US|.6|1977|r=1}} million today, adjusted for inflation).&lt;ref name=&quot;KLM responsibility&quot;&gt;{{cite web | url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/howklmaccept.htm | title=How KLM accepted their responsibility for the accident | website=Project-Tenerife.com |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20070822232022/http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/howklmaccept.htm |archive-date=August 22, 2007 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; The sum of settlements for property and damages was $110 million (or ${{inflation|US|110|1977|r=0}} million today),&lt;ref&gt;''[[The Washington Post]]'', March 25, 1980&lt;/ref&gt; an average of $189,000 (or ${{inflation|US|189000|1977|r=-3|fmt=c}} today) per victim, due to limitations imposed by European Compensation Conventions in effect at the time. === Speculations === This was one of the first accident investigations to include a study into the contribution of &quot;human factors&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;alpa22a&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |title=ALPA report on the crash |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110715122130/http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |archive-date=July 15, 2011 |df=mdy-all }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(2.70a&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, p. 2 (PDF p. 6 of 97). &quot;The study group notes with approval that the official report of the spanish government has, itself, included a section on human factors involved in this accident. We feel that this is an excellent beginning toward a better understanding of the causal factors of aviation accidents, an idea whose time has finally come.&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; These included: * Veldhuyzen van Zanten, a KLM training captain and instructor for over ten years working on simulators regularly, had not flown on regular routes for twelve weeks prior to the accident.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal|last1=Weick|first1=Karl E.|title=The Vulnerable System: An Analysis of the Tenerife Air Disaster|journal=Journal of Management|date=September 1, 1990|volume=16|issue=3|pages=571–593|doi=10.1177/014920639001600304|language=en|url=https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/68716/2/10.1177_014920639001600304.pdf |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170821154722/http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/68716/2/10.1177_014920639001600304.pdf |archive-date=August 21, 2017 |url-status=live|hdl=2027.42/68716|s2cid=145765387|hdl-access=free}}&lt;/ref&gt; * The KLM flight crew, including Veldhuyzen van Zanten, were concerned about exceeding their maximum legally allowable on-duty hours for the day, which Dutch law had recently tightened. This influenced Veldhuyzen van Zanten's decision to refuel at Tenerife for the flight to Amsterdam after as brief a stop as possible at Las Palmas. * The apparent hesitation of the flight engineer and the first officer to challenge Veldhuyzen van Zanten further. The official investigation suggested that this might have been due to not only the captain's seniority in rank but also his being one of the most respected pilots working for the airline.&lt;ref name=&quot;Air Disaster Volume 1&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url= http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/Tenerife.pdf |title=Official report }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(5.98&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, section 5.2, p. 38 (PDF p. 41 of 63): &quot;...&amp;nbsp;these circumstances could have induced the co-pilot not to ask any questions, assuming that his captain was always right&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; This view is questioned by Jan Bartelski, a former KLM captain and the president of the [[International Federation of Air Line Pilots' Associations]] (IFALPA), who knew both officers and believes this explanation to be inconsistent with his knowledge of their personalities. The first officer had intervened when Veldhuyzen van Zanten first opened the throttles, but had then failed to do so on the second occasion. Although the flight engineer had indeed asked the captain whether or not the Pan Am was clear of the runway, he seemed reassured by the captain's answer. The co-pilots had clearly challenged the captain's decisions, but were not insistent enough to convince him to abort the attempted takeoff.&lt;!--But does he offer an alternative explanation?--&gt;&lt;ref name=book&gt;{{Cite book | last = Bartelski | first = Jan | title = Disasters in the air: mysterious air disasters explained | publisher = Airlife | year = 2001 | url = https://archive.org/details/disastersinairmy0000bart | isbn = 978-1-84037-204-5 | quote = &lt;!-- As far as the allegations that co-pilots would not have the nerve to stand up to Veldhuyzen van Zanten during flight because of his senior position in the company, and that their career could be ruined by his adverse report, this was another example of completely false presumptions. Veldhuyzen van Zanten was a serious and introverted individual but with an open-hearted and friendly disposition. He was a studious type and was regarded as the company’s pilot expert on the Boeing 747 systems. Nevertheless, he would have been the last person on the flight desk not to accept his co-pilot’s advice or warning. He believed in partnership, to the extent that he insisted on his first officers addressing him during flight as ''Jaap'' and not ''Captain Veldhuyzen'' He had learnt much about cockpit management by representing KLM at an [[International Air Transport Association|IATA]] Conference in [[Istanbul]] and was trying to put this into practice&lt;br /&gt;...&lt;br /&gt;Meurs was not the type to have been easily intimidated by a superior rank and would not have easily given in under stress. Although new to the 747 (he had only ninety hours on that type), he was formerly a temporary DC-8 captain. For personal reasons, he waived his seniority right for a DC-9 command and opted to fly the 747 as a first officer. Meurs was an extrovert and liked to enjoy life, a contrasting disposition to Veldhuyzen van Zanten. Both complemented each other in personalities as well as in their operational background. What Veldhuyzen van Zanten lacked in route experience, particularly in the Canary Islands area, Meurs compensated for by his ultimate knowledge of the local situation from his many past flights through Las Palmas. The reverse applied to the handling of the 747. As for his profiency as a co-pilot, I found Meurs cooperative, alert, and far from a meek and mild type. In fact, the opposite was more likely. He could be somewhat abrupt and direct in his manner, as was evident from the way he stopped Veldhuyzen van Zanten from opening the throttles --&gt; | url-access = registration }}&lt;/ref&gt; * The flight engineer was the only member of the KLM's flight crew to react to the control tower's instruction to &quot;report the runway clear&quot;; this might have been due to his having completed his pre-flight checks, whereas his colleagues were experiencing an increased workload, just as the visibility worsened.&lt;ref name=&quot;alpa22&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |title=ALPA report on the crash |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110715122130/http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |archive-date=July 15, 2011 |df=mdy-all }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(2.70&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, p. 22 (PDF p. 26 of 97). &quot;Both pilots were contending with heavy demands on their attention as the visibility rapidly worsened. The flight engineer, to the contrary, had completed the heaviest part of his workload and was now reverting to an instrument monitoring mode.&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; * The ALPA study group concluded that the KLM crew did not realize that the transmission &quot;Papa Alpha One Seven Three Six, report the runway clear&quot; was directed at the Pan Am, because this was the first and only time the Pan Am was referred to by that name. Previously, the Pan Am had been called &quot;Clipper One Seven Three Six&quot;, using its proper call-sign.&lt;ref name=&quot;alpa22b&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |title=ALPA report on the crash |website=Project-Tenerife.com |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110715122130/http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf |archive-date=July 15, 2011 |df=mdy-all }}&amp;nbsp;{{small|(2.70&amp;nbsp;MB)}}, p. 22 (PDF p. 26 of 97). &quot;It is our opinion that the flight engineer, like the pilots, did not perceive the message from the controller to the Pan Am asking them to report when runway clear. (Because of the use of the address &quot;Papa Alpha).&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; The extra fuel taken on by the KLM added several factors: * Takeoff was delayed by an extra 35 minutes, allowing time for the fog to settle in; * More than 45 [[Tonne|tonnes]] of additional weight was added to the aircraft,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.fomento.es/MFOM/LANG_CASTELLANO/DIRECCIONES_GENERALES/ORGANOS_COLEGIADOS/CIAIAC/PUBLICACIONES/HISTORICOS/LOSRODEOS/los_rodeos_2_1.htm|title=CIAIAC {{!}} Publications {{!}} Relevant reports {{!}} A-102/1977 and A-103/1977 2.1 Analysis|website=fomento.es|publisher=[[Government of Spain]]|language=es|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20090412154318/http://www.fomento.es/MFOM/LANG_CASTELLANO/DIRECCIONES_GENERALES/ORGANOS_COLEGIADOS/CIAIAC/PUBLICACIONES/HISTORICOS/LOSRODEOS/los_rodeos_2_1.htm|archive-date=April 12, 2009|url-status=dead}} This Spanish report states 55,500 liters of [[jet fuel]]; based on a density of 0.8705 kg/L, that would weigh 45 [[Tonne|metric tons]] or 49 [[Ton|US tons]].&lt;/ref&gt; increasing the takeoff distance and making it more difficult to clear the Pan Am when taking off; * The increased severity of the fire caused by the additional fuel led ultimately to the deaths of all those on board.&lt;ref&gt;{{Citation |url=https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/deadliest-plane-crash.html |title=The Deadliest Plane Crash - transcript|quote=The 55 tons of fuel the Dutch plane had taken on creates a massive fireball that seals the fate of everyone onboard |publisher=NOVA }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.crossroadstoday.com/content/news/international/story/Worlds-deadliest-airline-disaster-occurred-36-yea/mRW2KWYC7UitRHn5UWeXLw.cspx |title=World's deadliest airline disaster occurred 36 years ago today |date=March 27, 2013 |quote=The full load of new fuel ignited immediately. |work=Crossroads Today |publisher=Saga Broadcasting, LLC |archive-url=https://archive.today/20130731104549/http://www.crossroadstoday.com/content/news/international/story/Worlds-deadliest-airline-disaster-occurred-36-yea/mRW2KWYC7UitRHn5UWeXLw.cspx |archive-date=July 31, 2013 |url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Legacy == [[File:De_kisten_van_de_slachtoffers_van_de_ramp,_Bestanddeelnr_929-1123.jpg|thumb|upright=1.2|Funeral service for the victims of Tenerife airport disaster at Amsterdam Airport Schiphol (April 6, 1977)]] As a consequence of the accident, sweeping changes were made to international airline regulations and to aircraft. Aviation authorities around the world introduced requirements for [[Radiotelephony procedure|standard phrases]] and a greater emphasis on English as a common [[working language]].&lt;ref name=TIC /&gt; Air traffic instruction must not be acknowledged solely with a colloquial phrase such as &quot;OK&quot; or even &quot;[[Voice procedure|Roger]]&quot; (which simply means the last transmission was received),&lt;ref&gt;CAP 413 Radio Telephony Manual (Edition 15), chapter 2 page 6&lt;/ref&gt; but with a readback of the key parts of the instruction, to show mutual understanding. The word &quot;takeoff&quot; is now spoken only when the actual takeoff clearance is given, or when canceling that same clearance (i.e., &quot;cleared for takeoff&quot; or &quot;cancel takeoff clearance&quot;). Until that point, aircrew and controllers should use the word &quot;departure&quot; in its place (e.g., &quot;ready for departure&quot;). Additionally, an ATC clearance given to an aircraft already lined-up on the runway must be prefixed with the instruction &quot;hold position&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;CAP 413 Radio Telephony Manual (Edition 15), chapter 4, page 6, paragraph 1.7.10&lt;/ref&gt; [[Cockpit]] procedures were also changed after the accident. Hierarchical relations among crew members were played down, and greater emphasis was placed on team decision-making by mutual agreement. Less experienced flight crew members were encouraged to challenge their captains when they believed something to be incorrect, and captains were instructed to listen to their crew and evaluate all decisions in light of crew concerns. This course of action was later expanded into what is known today as [[crew resource management]] (CRM), which states that all pilots, no matter how experienced they are, are allowed to contradict each other. This was a problem in the crash when the Flight Engineer asked if they were not clear, but Veldhuyzen van Zanten (with over 11,000 hours flown) said that they were obviously clear and the Flight Engineer decided that it was best not to contradict the captain. CRM training has been mandatory for all airline pilots since 2006.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last1=Alexander |first1=David |title=Never Wait for the Fire Truck: How the Worlds Deadliest Plane Crash Changed My Life and Yours |date=2015 |publisher=Createspace Independent |location=New York |isbn=978-0692471876 }}{{cite news|title=Tenerife Disaster – 27 March 1977: The Utility of the Swiss Cheese Model &amp; other Accident Causation Frameworks|url=http://goflightmedicine.com/tenerife-disaster/|access-date=October 13, 2014|publisher=Go Flight Medicine}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|title = The Evolution of Crew Resource Management Training in Commercial Aviation|author1 = Helmreich, R. L.|author2 = Merritt, A. C.|author3 = Wilhelm, J. A.|journal = [[Int. J. Aviat. Psychol.]]|year = 1999|volume = 9|issue = 1|pages = 19–32|doi = 10.1207/s15327108ijap0901_2|pmid = 11541445|url = http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/helmreichlab/publications/pubfiles/Pub235.pdf |archive-date=March 6, 2013 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130306162247/http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/HelmreichLAB/publications/pubfiles/Pub235.pdf |citeseerx = 10.1.1.526.8574}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1978, a second airport was opened on the island of Tenerife, the new [[Tenerife South Airport]] (TFS), which now serves the majority of international tourist flights. Los Rodeos, renamed Tenerife North Airport (TFN), was then used only for domestic and inter-island flights until 2002, when a new terminal was opened and Tenerife North began to carry international traffic again. The Spanish government installed a ground radar system at Tenerife North Airport following the accident.&lt;ref name=TIC /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.tenerife-training.net/Tenerife-News-Cycling-Blog/tenerife-north-airport-will-get-a-new-control-tower-more-than-30-years-after-worlds-biggest-air-disaster/|title=Tenerife North airport will get a new control tower, more than 30 years after world's biggest air disaster|website=www.tenerife-training.net|access-date=March 4, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Memorials == {{multiple image |header=Tenerife disaster memorials |total_width=600 |image1=International Tenerife Memorial March 27, 1977.jpg |caption1=Memorial on Tenerife |image2=Westgaarde.jpg |caption2=Westgaarde Cemetery |image3=TenerifeMemorial.JPG |caption3=Westminster Memorial Park }} A Dutch national memorial and final resting place for the victims of the KLM plane is located in [[Amsterdam]], at Westgaarde cemetery. There is also a memorial at the Westminster Memorial Park and Mortuary in [[Westminster, California]], US. In 1977, a cross in [[Rancho Bernardo, San Diego|Rancho Bernardo]], San Diego, California was dedicated to 19 area residents who died in the disaster.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |author=kacejataste |agency=Pomerado News|date=January 29, 2009 |title=Around the Ranch: All about Battle Mountain |url=http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/pomerado-news/sdpn-around-the-ranch-all-about-battle-mountain-2009jan29-story.html |newspaper=[[The San Diego Union-Tribune]] |access-date=May 5, 2018 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Himchak |first=Elizabeth Marie |date=June 9, 2016 |title=Rancho Bernardo cross undergoes repairs |url=http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/pomerado-news/news/local-news/rancho-bernardo/sdpn-rancho-bernardo-cross-undergoes-repairs-2016jun09-story.html |newspaper=[[The San Diego Union-Tribune]] |access-date=May 5, 2018 |archive-date=6 May 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180506035342/http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/pomerado-news/news/local-news/rancho-bernardo/sdpn-rancho-bernardo-cross-undergoes-repairs-2016jun09-story.html |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2007, the 30th anniversary marked the first time that Dutch and American next-of-kin and aid helpers from Tenerife joined an international commemoration service, held at the Auditorio de Tenerife in Santa Cruz. The [[International Tenerife Memorial March 27, 1977]] was inaugurated at the Mesa Mota on March 27, 2007. The monument was designed by Dutch sculptor Rudi van de Wint (1942–2006).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |date=February 19, 2007 |title=COMUNICADO: Monumento International Tenerife Memorial donado al Cabildo; avanzan los trabajos de cimentación en la Mesa Mota |language=es |trans-title=STATEMENT: International Tenerife Memorial Monument donated to the Cabildo; Foundation work progresses at Mesa Mota |newspaper=[[El Economista (Spain)|El Economista]] |url=http://www.eleconomista.es/mercados-cotizaciones/noticias/166139/02/07/COMUNICADO-Monumento-International-Tenerife-Memorial-donado-al-Cabildo-avanzan-los-trabajos-de-cimentacion-en-la-Mesa-Mota.html |access-date=March 21, 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.tenerife-memorial.org/es/|title=Monumento Conmemorativo Internacional March 2, 2007 + Foto-Video|language=ES}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Documentaries == The disaster has been featured in many TV shows and documentaries. These include: * Episode 1 of ''[[Survival in the Sky]]'', &quot;Blaming the Pilot&quot; (1996). * Episode 12 of ''[[Seconds From Disaster]]'', &quot;Collision on the Runway&quot; (2004). * Episode 625 of PBS's ''[[Nova (American TV series)|NOVA]]'', &quot;The Deadliest Plane Crash&quot; (2006). * The PBS special ''Surviving Disaster: How the Brain Works Under Extreme Duress'' (2011), which was based on [[Amanda Ripley]]'s book ''The Unthinkable: Who Survives When Disaster Strikes - and Why''. * An episode of ''[[Destroyed in Seconds]]''. * Episode 133 (S16E03) of the Canadian TV series ''[[Mayday (Canadian TV series)|Mayday]]'' (known by different names in different countries), &quot;Disaster at Tenerife&quot; (2016), as well as the earlier in-depth 90-minute special &quot;Crash of the Century&quot; (2005). * Footage of the wreckage appears in the disaster documentary ''[[Days of Fury]]'' (1979),&lt;ref name=&quot;Warshofsky1979&quot;&gt;{{cite AV media |author=Fred Warshofsky |title=Days of Fury |url=https://archive.org/details/days-of-fury-1979 |publisher=Markwood Productions Ltd. |year=1979 |time=29m15s}}&lt;/ref&gt; directed by [[Fred Warshofsky]]. * Episode 5 of the [[Nebula (streaming service)|Nebula]] series ''Under Exposure'' (2023) by Neo. == See also == * [[1982 Sukhumi Dranda Airport runway collision]] — similar in circumstances * [[List of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft]] * [[2001 Linate Airport runway collision]] == References == {{Reflist|2}} * ''Collision on Tenerife: The How and Why of the World's Worst Aviation Disaster'' by Jon Ziomek (Post Hill Press, 2018). == External links == {{Commons category}} {{external media | float = right | width = | image1 = [http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=PH-BUF&amp;distinct_entry=true PH-BUF (KLM 4805)] – Airliners.net | image2 = [http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=N736PA&amp;distinct_entry=true N736PA (Pan Am 1736)] – Airliners.net | video1= [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJkLrLwmV0Y Survivor remembers deadliest aviation disaster in Tenerife] – [[CBS This Morning]] – March 27, 2017 }} &lt;!--===========================({{NoMoreLinks}})===============================--&gt; &lt;!--| DO NOT ADD MORE LINKS TO THIS ARTICLE. WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A COLLECTION OF |--&gt; &lt;!--| LINKS. If you think that your link might be useful, do not add it here, |--&gt; &lt;!--| but put it on this article's discussion page first or submit your link |--&gt; &lt;!--| to the appropriate category at the Open Directory Project (www.dmoz.org)|--&gt; &lt;!--| and link back to that category using the {{dmoz}} template. |--&gt; &lt;!--| |--&gt; &lt;!--| Links that have not been verified WILL BE DELETED. |--&gt; &lt;!--| See [[Wikipedia:External links]] and [[Wikipedia:Spam]] for details |--&gt; &lt;!--===========================({{NoMoreLinks}})===============================--&gt; *[http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/rapporten.htm Official Spanish and Dutch accident reports] ** [https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/courses/content/232/1081/finaldutchreport.pdf English translation of Spanish report and Dutch response] ** &quot;[https://www.transportes.gob.es/organos-colegiados/ciaiac/publicaciones/informes-relevantes/accidente-ocurrido-el-27-de-marzo-de-1977-aeronaves-boeing-747-matricula-ph-buf-de-klm-y-aeronave-boeing-747-matricula-n736pa-de-panam-en-el-aeropuerto-de-los-rodeos-tenerife-islas-canarias A-102/1977 y A-103/1977 Accidente Ocurrido el 27 de Marzo de 1977 a las Aeronaves Boeing 747, Matrícula PH-BUF de K.L.M. y Aeronave Boeing 747, matrícula N736PA de PANAM en el Aeropuerto de los Rodeos, Tenerife (Islas Canarias)].&quot; – Hosted by the [[Civil Aviation Accident and Incident Investigation Commission]] {{in lang|es}} *[http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf Human Factors Report on the Tenerife Accident] – [[Air Line Pilots Association, International|Air Line Pilots Association]] of the United States ([https://web.archive.org/web/20110715122130/http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/PDF/alpa.pdf Archive]) {{Pan Am}} {{KLM Royal Dutch Airlines}} {{Netherlands–United States relations}} {{Aviation accidents and incidents in Spain}} {{Aviation accidents and incidents in 1977}} {{Portal bar|Spain|Netherlands|United States|Aviation}} [[Category:Accidents and incidents involving the Boeing 747]] [[Category:Airliner accidents and incidents involving ground collisions]] [[Category:Airliner accidents and incidents caused by pilot error]] [[Category:Airliner accidents and incidents involving fog]] [[Category:Aviation accidents and incidents in 1977]] [[Category:Aviation accidents and incidents in Spain]] [[Category:KLM accidents and incidents]] [[Category:Pan Am accidents and incidents]] [[Category:Tenerife|Disaster]] [[Category:1977 in the Netherlands]] [[Category:1977 in Spain]] [[Category:Netherlands–Spain relations]] [[Category:Netherlands–United States relations]] [[Category:Spain–United States relations]] [[Category:March 1977 events in Europe]] [[Category:History of the Canary Islands]] [[Category:Airliner accidents and incidents caused by tailstrikes]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&diff=1259237487</id> <title>Talk:Donald Trump</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&diff=1259237487"/> <updated>2024-11-24T03:11:37Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: re <hr /> <div>{{Talk header|hide_find_sources=yes}} {{Controversial}} {{Warning RS and OR}} {{American politics AE|Consensus required=no|BRD=yes|1RR=no}} {{tmbox |image = [[File:Stop hand nuvola orange.svg|48px|link=]] |text = '''Want to add new information about Donald Trump?'''&lt;br/&gt;Please consider choosing the most appropriate article, for example: {{div col}} * [[Indictments against Donald Trump]] * [[Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign]] {{div col end}} ... or dozens of other places, as listed in {{t|Donald Trump series}}. 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|collapsed=y |1= {{Article history |action1=GAN |action1date=15:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC) |action1link=Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 1#GA Failing |action1result=failed |action1oldid=56507759 |action2=GAN |action2date=17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC) |action2link=Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 1#GA failed |action2result=failed |action2oldid=107442121 |action3=GAN |action3link=Talk:Donald Trump/GA1 |action3date= 17 September 2016 |action3result=failed |action3oldid=739866707 |action4=GAN |action4date=03:07, 25 May 2017 (UTC) |action4link=Talk:Donald Trump/GA2 |action4result=failed |action4oldid=782109977 |action5=GAN |action5date=08:44, 2 December 2018 (UTC) |action5link=Talk:Donald Trump/GA3 |action5result=failed |action5oldid=870721866 |action6=GAN |action6date=18:23, 15 July 2019 (UTC) |action6link=Talk:Donald Trump👌/GA4 |action6result=failed |action6oldid=906418948 |action7 = FAC |action7date = 2019-08-31 |action7link = Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Donald Trump/archive1 |action7result = failed |action7oldid = 913215099 |action8 = PR |action8date = 2020-04-29 |action8link = Wikipedia:Peer review/Donald Trump/archive1 |action8result= reviewed |action8oldid = 953988039 |currentstatus=FGAN |topic=Politics and government }} {{Afd-merged-from|Health of Donald Trump|Health of Donald Trump|13 June 2019}} {{Press | collapsed=yes |org=''[[New York Post]]'' |date=November 16, 2013 |author=Cuozzo, Steve |title=Don't Trust Anything on Wikipedia |url=http://nypost.com/2013/11/16/dont-trust-anything-on-wikipedia/ |org2=''[[The Verge]]'' |date2=July 22, 2015 |author2=Popper, Ben |title2=Someone just deleted Donald Trump's entire Wikipedia page |url2=http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/22/9014525/someone-just-deleted-donald-trumps-entire-wikipedia-page |org3=''[[New York Times]]'' |date3=February 1, 2016 |author3=Merrill, Jeremy |title3=On Wikipedia, Donald Trump Reigns and Facts Are Open to Debate |url3=http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/02/us/politics/wikipedia-donald-trump-2016-election.html |org4=''[[Cracked.com]]'' |date4=May 28, 2016 |author4=Germ, Erik |title4=5 Secretly Bizarre Sections Of Websites You Use Every Day |url4=https://web.archive.org/web/20170210205851/http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-truly-bizarre-sections-otherwise-normal-websites_p2/ |org5=''[[The Washington Post]]'' |date5=October 25, 2016 |author5=Guo, Jeff |title5=Wikipedia is fixing one of the Internet's biggest flaws |url5=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/25/somethings-terribly-wrong-with-the-internet-and-wikipedia-might-be-able-to-fix-it/ |org6=''[[The Washington Post]]'' |date6=October 27, 2016|author6=Alcantara, Chris |title6=The most challenging job of the 2016 race: Editing the candidates' Wikipedia pages |url6=https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/presidential-wikipedias/ |org7=''[[BBC News]]'' |date7=December 21, 2016 |author7=Staff Writer |title7=Most-edited Wikipedia pages of 2016 revealed |url7=http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38394685 |org8=''[[The Verge]]'' |date8=January 20, 2017 |author8=Gartenberg, Chaim |title8=Wikipedia editors can't decide if Trump is the president yet |url8=http://www.theverge.com/tldr/2017/1/20/14336626/wikipedia-editors-edit-war-president-obama-trump |org9=''[[The Daily Dot]]'' |date9=June 5, 2017 |author9=Wyrich, Andrew |title9=Someone is trying to get Trump's official portrait deleted from Wikipedia |url9=https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/donald-trump-official-portrait-wikipedia-copyright/ |org10=''[[The Verge]]'' |date10=22 November 2018 |author10=Warren, Tom|title10=Siri thinks Donald Trump is a penis|url10=https://www.theverge.com/tldr/2018/11/22/18108195/apple-siri-iphone-donald-trump-penis-wikipedia-fail-vandalism-editing |org11=''[[USA Today]]'' |date11=22 November 2018 |author11=Blumenthal, Eli|title11=Wikipedia vandalizing causes Siri to show a lewd image when asked about Donald Trump |url11=https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/11/22/siri-glitch-shows-male-genitalia-when-asking-questions-trump/2088884002/ |org12=''[[The Independent]]'' |date12=23 November 2018 |author12=Griffin, Andrew|title12=Asking Siri for information about Donald Trump shows explicit image after Wikipedia edit|url12=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/donald-trump-siri-explicit-image-apple-wikipedia-edit-explained-a8648556.html |org13=''[[Newsweek]]'' |date13=23 November 2018 |author13=Gander, Kashmira|title13=Someone hacked Donald Trump's Wikipedia page, replaced photo with image of penis|url13=https://www.newsweek.com/someone-hacked-donald-trumps-wikipedia-page-replaced-photo-image-penis-1228571 |org14=''[[The Inquirer]]'' |date14=26 November 2018 |author14=Martin, Alan|title14=The Trump penis Wikipedia war has kicked off again|url14=https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3066986/the-trump-penis-wikipedia-war-has-kicked-off-again |org15=''[[The Verge]]'' |date15=December 3, 2018 |author15=Brandom, Russell|title15=Wikipedia engages the 'nuclear option' after Trump penis hack|url15=https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/4/18125359/wikipedia-trump-admin-account-security-hack |org16=''[[Slate (magazine)|Slate]]'' |date16=May 28, 2019 |author16=Mak, Aaron|title16=Donald Trump's Wikipedia Entry Is a War Zone|url16=https://slate.com/technology/2019/05/donald-trump-wikipedia-page.htm |org17=''[[Fast Company]]'' |date17=March 7, 2020 |author17=Pasternack, Alex |title17=How Wikipedia's volunteers became the web's best weapon against misinformation |url17=https://www.fastcompany.com/90471667/how-wikipedia-volunteers-became-the-webs-best-weapon-against-misinformation |org18=''[[Fox News]]'' |date18=May 21, 2020 |author18=Flood, Brian |title18=Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger says online encyclopedia scrapped neutrality, favors lefty politics |url18=https://www.foxnews.com/media/wikipedia-co-founder-larry-sanger-says-online-dictionary-scrapped-neutrality-favors-lefty-politics |org19=''[[Snopes]]'' |date19=November 19, 2020 |author19=Evon, Dan |title19=Does Loser.com Redirect to Trump’s Wikipedia Page? |url19=https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loser-com-trump-wikipedia-page/ |org20=''[[The Guardian]]'' |date20=October 23, 2023 |author20=Williams, Zoe |title20=Why is Elon Musk attacking Wikipedia? Because its very existence offends him |url20=https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/23/why-is-elon-musk-attacking-wikipedia-because-its-very-existence-offends-him |org21=''[[Fox News]]'' |date21=May 31, 2024 |author21=Hays, Gabriel |title21=CNN host suggests Trump conviction not mentioned prominently enough on former president's Wikipedia page |url21=https://www.foxnews.com/media/cnn-host-suggests-trump-conviction-mentioned-prominently-enough-former-presidents-wikipedia-page |org22=''[[Slate (magazine)|Slate]]'' |date22=June 4, 2024 |author22=Harrison, Stephen |title22=The Most Heated Debate on Trump’s Felony Conviction Is Happening on ... Wikipedia? |url22=https://slate.com/technology/2024/06/donald-trump-felony-wikipedia-debate.html |org23=''[[The Boston Globe]]'' |date23=October 17, 2024 |author23=Sam Wineburg and Nadav Ziv |title23=Go ahead and use Wikipedia for research |url23=https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/10/17/opinion/use-wikipedia-reliable-source/ }} {{All time pageviews|233}} {{Annual report|[[Wikipedia:2015 Top 50 Report|2015]], [[Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/2016|2016]], [[Wikipedia:2017 Top 50 Report|2017]], [[Wikipedia:2018 Top 50 Report|2018]], [[Wikipedia:2019 Top 50 Report|2019]], [[Wikipedia:2020 Top 50 Report|2020]], [[Wikipedia:2021 Top 50 Report|2021]], and [[Wikipedia:2023 Top 50 Report|2023]]}} {{Top 25 report|Jun 14 2015|Jun 28 2015|Jul 19 2015|until|Sep 27 2015|Dec 6 2015|Dec 13 2015|Jan 3 2016|until|Jan 17 2016|until|Jun 12 2016|Jul 3 2016|until|Jul 31 2016|Aug 21 2016|until|Dec 18 2016|Jan 1 2017|until|Apr 2 2017|Apr 23 2017|May 14 2017|until|May 28 2017|Jun 11 2017|Jun 25 2017|Oct 8 2017|Oct 22 2017|Nov 26 2017|Jan 14 2018|Jun 10 2018|Sep 30 2018|Oct 28 2018|until|Nov 25 2018|Dec 9 2018|Sep 22 2019|Dec 15 2019|Jan 5 2020|Feb 23 2020|Mar 1 2020|Apr 12 2020|May 31 2020|until|Jun 28 2020|Aug 9 2020|until|Aug 23 2020|Sep 27 2020|until|Dec 13 2020|Jan 3 2021|until|Jan 31 2021|Jul 10 2022|Jun 11 2023|May 26 2024|Jun 23 2024|Jul 14 2024|Jul 21 2024|Oct 20 2024|until|Nov 10 2024}} {{Annual readership|scale=log}} &lt;!-- end page history banner bundle --&gt; }} {{Skip to talk}} {{Skip to bottom}} {{Banner holder |collapsed=yes |1= {{Section sizes}} }} {{User:MiszaBot/config |algo = old(14d) |archive = Talk:Donald Trump/Archive %(counter)d |counter = 177 |maxarchivesize = 250K |archiveheader = {{aan}} |minthreadstoarchive = 1 |minthreadsleft = 2 }} __TOC__ == Current consensus == &lt;!-- Must be on this page, not the subpage, to support mobile users --&gt; {{/Current consensus}} == Racially charged == &lt;!-- START PIN --&gt;{{Pin message|}}&lt;!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 10:51, 10 November 2034 (UTC) --&gt;{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|2046768684}}&lt;!-- END PIN --&gt; Hello all, I see Consensus #30, based particularly on [[Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_92#Wording_for_sentence_in_lead_on_racial_stance|this Request for Comment]] says: &quot;The lead includes: &quot;Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist.&quot;&quot; I can also see that this is the only mention of &quot;racially charged&quot; in the article. Would editors here support removal of &quot;racially charged&quot; until such text is supported in the body? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tq|Would editors here support removal of &quot;racially charged&quot; until such text is supported in the body?}} Not this one, per process. We're not going to amend #30 until the body is fixed, then reverse the amendment. &quot;Racially charged&quot; appears to have enough RS support, so just find a way to work it into the body. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::&lt;s&gt;What does &quot;reverse the amendment&quot; mean? Go back to Consensus 24? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; I understand. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::I see the grammatical ambiguity. :) &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::This seems backwards. Lead follows body. We shouldn't treat the consensus list as sacrosanct, it's merely there to keep track of RfCs. If the article has moved on, I'd support a new RfC to challenge the previous one. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 07:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Riposte97}} I think an RfC should be avoided if it can be. Do you think you could [[WP:FIXIT]]? I'll have a go as well in a bit. If we don't have luck we can look at overturning Consensus #30. :::Given it's an [[WP:EXCEPTIONAL]] claim, high-quality sources will be needed. I wouldn't accept journalists being arbitrators of whether his comments were &quot;racially charged&quot;, political scientists will have written on it and we shouldn't accept inferior sourcing. This is the standard that was applied for &quot;cult of personality&quot;. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 07:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Your reasoning seems consistent with [[WP:NEWSORG]]. A departure, probably more impactful (disruptive?) than you realize, but maybe ultimately good for the article. No strong opinion provided we adhere to the established consensus process. If that means revisiting #30, I suppose you pass the &quot;significant new argument(s)&quot; test. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]], apologies that I've not had the time to properly devote to this. I'll see what I can add to your page in the coming days. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :Yep definitely. [[Special:Contributions/92.30.105.204|92.30.105.204]] ([[User talk:92.30.105.204|talk]]) 19:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC) I have created a page [[User:Rollinginhisgrave/Trump racism descriptor]] as a space for research on this article. I intended to use academic sources in [[Racial views of Donald Trump]] as the basis to follow summary style, but extremely disappointingly, only six of the almost 500 sources are academic. This is collaborative so please help! If this can be pinned to the top of this page for a short while it would be valuable. Remember, for [[WP:WEIGHT]], we are not merely looking for multiple sources describing him or his comments/actions as racist/racially charged, but for the weighted response of high-quality academic sources to these questions. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 10:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|SusanLesch}} Pinging you in case this effort is of interest. Been working mostly on collating books right now as journals are daunting for finding discussion of general scholarly consensus. If you find other useful texts along the way providing a scholarly retrospective assessment on aspects, I'm currently dropping them in [[User:Rollinginhisgrave/sandbox_2]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC) ::Will do. Sorry if I'm slow today with journals but I will catch up. On this topic per [[MOS:LEADNO]], {{tq| not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text}}, however this statement absolutely should be cited per [[MOS:CITELEAD]]. Seems like a good place for a perfectly cited footnote. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:42, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :::Thanks :) Yes the key issue is definitely it being uncited. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:48, 15 November 2024 (UTC) == Tracking lead size == Word counts by paragraph and total. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1255636208 05 Nov 2024] &amp;mdash; '''614''' = 29 + 101 + 106 + 156 + 101 + 121 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1257045174 12 Nov 2024] &amp;mdash; '''657''' = 46 + 101 + 116 + 175 + 176 + 43 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1258463601 19 Nov 2024] &amp;mdash; '''418''' = 62 + 76 + 153 + 127 == Religion in Donald Trump's life == Hi. I added 57 words to the thin content of the Religion section. Since these words were reverted with concern about length and mentions elsewhere in article, please discuss the added content here and the quality of the [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|Reliable sources]] involved: # Added that his family's church was &quot;led by Norman Vincent Peale.&quot; -- This point is made by Kelsey Dallas, an award-winning religion journalist (Deseret News), in her article, &quot;What has Donald Trump said about religion?&quot; (7-18-24) and elaborated by the NYT article &quot;Overlooked Influences on Donald Trump: A Famous Minister and His Church&quot; (9-5-16) -- '''5 words''' # &quot;During his childhood, he also went to the [[First Presbyterian Church (Brooklyn)|First Presbyterian Church]] in Brooklyn and donated to it in 2012.&quot; -- This church affiliation is completely missing from the article. It is supported by the Kelsey Dallas piece and this article in ''The Atlantic'': Green, Emma (July 24, 2016). &quot;Donald Trump Grew Up at a Church That's Now Full of Immigrants&quot; -- '''19 words''' # Added that his new identification as a non-denominational Christian is &quot;an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president.&quot; Source: Admin, C. (October 27, 2020). &quot;Trump Becomes the First President Since Eisenhower to Change Faiths in Office&quot;. ''Christianity Today''. More can be said about this salient shift, of course, but here adding only -- '''10 words''' # &quot;Trump appeals to Christian nationalists, according to a 2022 study&quot; -- This key point is missing from the article. There are numerous sources that discuss his relationship to Christian nationalism, please [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22trump%22+%22christian+nationalism%22&amp;client=firefox-b-1-d&amp;sca_esv=bdd267d42e3b57fe&amp;sca_upv=1&amp;ei=LwP7ZqLnCY2gwN4P07CoqQs&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjiutmquuuIAxUNENAFHVMYKrUQ4dUDCA8&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22trump%22+%22christian+nationalism%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHyJ0cnVtcCIgImNocmlzdGlhbiBuYXRpb25hbGlzbSJI4CJQiQNYoBpwAXgAkAEAmAF-oAHXDKoBBDEyLjW4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgWgAtADwgIIEAAYgAQYxwPCAgUQABiABMICDRAAGIAEGEMYxwMYigWYAwCIBgGSBwM0LjGgB_oN&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp%7Csearch Google News] to confirm. Here I suggest an academic paper by leading scholars: Perry, Samuel L.; Whitehead, Andrew L.; Grubbs, Joshua B. (June 2022). &quot;The Devil That You Know: Christian Nationalism and Intent to Change One's Voting Behavior For or Against Trump in 2020&quot;. Politics and Religion. 15 (2): 229–246. doi:10.1017/S175504832100002X. p.243 -- '''10 words''' # &quot;and in March 2024 he began to sell copies of a Christian Bible.&quot; -- Not elsewhere in the article. Source: Willingham, A. J. (March 28, 2024). &quot;Why some Christians are angry about Trump's 'God Bless the USA' Bible&quot;. CNN. -- '''13 words''' Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life, especially because the personal is political for his relationship with Christian constituencies. In the current version, the word &quot;Christian&quot; only appears once in the article. I believe these 5 changes are written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|Neutral point of view]], clearly [[Wikipedia:Verified|Verified]], and involve due [[Wikipedia:WEIGHT|Weight]] to a significant aspect of the subject's life. @[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]], thanks in advance for comments. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 20:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC) :There is an argument for 2, 4, and 5 to be added. 1 and 3 are relatively trivial IMO. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 20:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC) ::I believe 1 is not trivial. The &quot;power of positive thinking&quot; is at the heart of Trump's philosophy. I believe it used to be in the article, but has been edited out at some point.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 00:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :1, 2, 3 are silly trivia. Ambivalent on the rest. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 01:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :4 seems more relevant. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 01:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :There is too much religion material in the article. There should be something about his pandering to fundamentalist Christians , his strange messages to the Jews, and his attempts to monetize and brand himself with the Bible. Well, actually we do have the photo-op.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 01:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC) ::I believe the Bible is included in an article on Trump products.[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 02:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC) ::You can now get the “The Day God Intervened” edition ({{tq|custom embossed to in remembrance of the day that God intervened during President Donald J. Trump`s assassination attempt}} — English [https://godblesstheusabible.com/ isn't the website's forte]) of &quot;the only Bible endorsed by&quot; Trump, using his &quot;name, likeness and image&quot; under a license agreement with one of Trump's organizations, CIC Ventures LLC; $59.99, or $1,000 with {{tq|President Donald J. Trump's Hand-Signed Signature}}. It's not a Trump-branded product, so it's mentioned in the last paragraph of [[The Trump Organization#Other ventures and investments]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :::: {{ping|SPECIFICO}} Hi there. Based on your suggestion more content about Christians, messages to Jews, etc., it looks like a typo and that you meant to write, &quot;There is ''not'' too much religion...&quot; -- is that right? [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 19:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I meant there's too much insignificant content about church etc and not enough about his use of religion in efforts to pander to various groups.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 02:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]] Thank you for the link to the godblesstheusabible website ... my brain just exploded. &lt;span style=&quot;border-radius:9em;background:#88ff00&quot;&gt;[[User:Bobsd|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• Bobsd •&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt;([[User talk:Bobsd|talk]]) 01:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1225220728&amp;oldid=1225196949 This edit] moved Trump’s Sunday school confirmation from [[Donald Trump#Religion|Religion]] to [[Donald Trump#Early life|Early Life]], and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1225221117&amp;oldid=1225220728 this edit] removed Peale. {{tq|Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life}} — he was and is unable to name a favorite or cite a single verse or passage from the Bible. I just moved Sunday school back into the section. I assume Sunday school was mentioned only because of contradictory Trump claims about his religion/religiosity. I can't think of any other bio mentioning it as part of early life and education, not even [[Mike Pence]]'s. Was tempted to remove it but didn't because of this discussion. :*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1225221117&amp;oldid=1225220728 this edit] in May removed Peale. The Trumps started attending Marble Collegiate Church because of Peale's fame and feel-good-about-being-rich sermons. Seems trivial to me. :*Donation to Brooklyn church: It was apparently only reported by one source, [https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/07/trumps-sunday-school/492653/ The Atlantic], at the time which also reported that {{tq|As far as Patrick O’Connor, the pastor, knows, the Republican presidential nominee has never tried to visit the church where he grew up—or, at least, not in several decades.}} Who knows why he sent a check in 2012, and was it a personal check or a Trump Foundation check? :*Christian nationalism. There's one sentence in [[Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Campaign events]]: {{tq|The Associated Press noted that &quot;Trump's rallies take on the symbols, rhetoric and agenda of Christian nationalism.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last=Peter|first=Smith|date=May 18, 2024|title=Jesus is their savior, Trump is their candidate. Ex-president's backers say he shares faith, values|url=https://apnews.com/article/trump-christian-evangelicals-conservatives-2024-election-43f25118c133170c77786daf316821c3|access-date=June 2, 2024|work=[[Associated Press]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} It's part of his rhetoric to please a subset of his supporters, so it would belong in [[Donald Trump#2024 presidential campaign]]. :*&quot;an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president&quot; — trivial statistic. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC) ::It seems like Peale was an important influence on the Donald’s life, so I would strongly urge the reinstatement of that text. [[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 17:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :::Hi. @[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]], Thanks for your collaborative comments and for explaining your take to each of these points, which I appreciate, plus you looked up past edits. You also moved the Sunday school thing, even though you feel that it's unimportant. Your point (higher up) about the bible is clear and well-explained, so I get that (#5). If the donation is only one RS, then I can see leaving out of this article, though it may belong in a sub-article (#2). :::* On Christian nationalism (#4), or Christian right / conservatism -- you suggest a different section, that's very helpful. There are numerous RS sources on his relationship to Christian movements, e.g., [[Trumpism]] article long section. It is deeper and earlier than the current campaign, so it might go under earlier under political career. But I'm puzzled because this article doesn't mention the political movement-building he has done, e.g., MAGA, Trumpism. and Christian conservatism. What's your sense of that? (FWIW, my #3 is related to all this, but less important than showing readers his evangelical coalition-building.) :::* On Norman Vincent Peale -- Ok, it might sound trivial at first glance. But there are many sources that report, analyze, and opine about the relevance of Peale to Trump. Is it helpful if I give some links, or would that be off-putting here? [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/10/how-self-help-author-norman-vincent-peale-influenced-donald-trump.html CNBC 2020],[https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/nyregion/donald-trump-marble-collegiate-church-norman-vincent-peale.html NYT] 2016, [https://www.crosswalk.com/headlines/contributors/scott-slayton/things-christians-should-know-about-the-faith-of-donald-trump.html a Christian POV], [https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/10/donald-trump-2016-norman-vincent-peale-213220/ biographer in Politico], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/how-trump-got-religion--and-why-his-legendary-ministers-son-now-rejects-him/2016/01/21/37bae16e-bb02-11e5-829c-26ffb874a18d_story.html WaPo] 2016, [https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/surge-piety-norman-vincent-peale/ evangelical POV], [https://www.deseret.com/indepth/2020/10/8/21506597/norman-vincent-peale-donald-trump-covid-glenn-beck-positive-thinking-stephen-covey-mary-trump/ linking to his COVID approach] (one of several), [https://www.firstthings.com/article/2016/08/donald-trump-man-of-faith First Things conservative POV], and more. :::Thanks for your consideration. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 19:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC) ::::A consensus appears to be forming for adding Trump's support of Christian nationality somewhere in the article. Peale influence: {{tq|in an interview [Trump] [https://web.archive.org/web/20160906211340/https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/nyregion/donald-trump-marble-collegiate-church-norman-vincent-peale.html described Dr. Peale] as “a great preacher and a great public speaker” but said nothing about any religious beliefs he had imparted.}} (New York Times) {{tq|[https://web.archive.org/web/20160123161744/https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/how-trump-got-religion--and-why-his-legendary-ministers-son-now-rejects-him/2016/01/21/37bae16e-bb02-11e5-829c-26ffb874a18d_story.html Trump, in a telephone interview], ... said he was a young man when he first heard Norman Vincent Peale preach. “He would give the best sermons of anyone; he was an amazing public speaker,” Trump said. “He could speak for 90 minutes and people were upset when it was over.” Trump said he was drawn to stories the minister told in the pulpit about successful business executives “overcoming difficulties.” “I found that very interesting,” the billionaire said, adding that he and Peale became friends. “He thought I was his greatest student of all time.”}} (Washington Post) Sounds more transactional than faith-based. Also, are there any witnesses for Trump attending church every Sunday for 50 years? He has been known to lie ... [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::::'''Peale''' was a far-right Christian nationalist charlatan and a bigot whose model is reflected in much of Trump's present-day rhetoric. [[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 02:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I think his relationship with Peale was transactional, but that's no reason not to include it![[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 02:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::No, Peale was a [https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+peale hero and role model] - like Roy Cohn, Putin, and Lechter. These icons impregnated the imagination of what would become today's Trump-2024.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 12:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::Based on responses, I will aim to write something brief in the article about Trump's work with Christian conservatives and (arguable) support for Christian nationalism. Might be next week. It's fine, of course, if somebody else writes this into the article, please let me know via ping. :::::::On Peale, it seems that he deserves at least limited mention as an inspiration (or other term) for Trump. I think this is easiest to put into Religion section, since Trump encountered hiim through church, but other suggested placements are welcome. Thanks for all your responses and finding further sources. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 02:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Hi @[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]], in my comment above (Oct 9), I expressed what I took to be a suitable handling for Peale. While some users assumed Peale was trivial, I cited 8 different sources, including articles devoted to Peale's influence on Trump. Your comment mentioned NYT and WaPo. Specifico and Jack Upland affirmed the relevance of Peale. Please clarify your concerns, e.g., is Peale's influence not discussed by credible sources, should Peale's influenced be mentioned elsewhere in the article? Something else? Thanks. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 14:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::There's no consensus to add Peale. Only eight people participated in this discussion. Four opposed mentioning Peale, and one acquiesced to the opposed faction. Peale's [[Norman Vincent Peale#Influence|page mentions]] Donald Trump, and [[Fred Trump#Personal life|Fred Trump's]] page mentions Peale's influence on Fred. Fred Trump was raised Lutheran, his children were raised in his wife's Presbyterian beliefs, became a member of the Norman Vincent Peale church of &quot;positive thinking&quot;. Trump, who went back to living with his parents after he finished college, went along but seems to have come away with &quot;assume the worst&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Factoid #2 needs to be removed and I'll acquiesce to those above who say that #1 and #3 should go. In general, it's more important how Trump is perceived by the religious right than trivialities about the few times he actually attended church. &lt;sub style=&quot;border:1px solid #FFCC00;&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Purplebackpack89|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FFCC00;background:#800080;&quot;&gt;pbp&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 20:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Based on discussion above, I'm '''adding a Christian nationalism sentence''' to a subsection on Trump's campaign rhetoric: &quot;Without being conventionally religious, Trump used Christian nationalist rhetoric that portrayed Christians under siege in America and that promised its renewal as a Christian nation.&quot; This is based on the most cited authors on Christian nationalism in contemporary American politics (this article has been cited 500+ times): Whitehead, Andrew L., Samuel L. Perry, and Joseph O. Baker. &quot;Make America Christian again: Christian nationalism and voting for Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential election.&quot; Sociology of religion 79, no. 2 (2018): 147-171. esp pages 150-153. It'd be good to have at least one sentence on his coalition building with evangelical / conservative Christians. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 17:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :: In line with the above discussion, I also added a '''sentence on Norman Vincent Peale''' in the &quot;Religion&quot; subsection. There are various sources, noted above, so I chose the liberal NY Times and the conservative First Things, which both give a pretty reasonable account of how Trump was influenced by Peale. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 18:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253113754&amp;oldid=1252993272 reverted] the addition of Peale since there is no consensus for it, and I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253116482&amp;oldid=1253113754 replaced] the material you added with the material we discussed here. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} I don't care to take on uninvolved closure here, but the last comment of any substance was on 30 October. What do the participants think? Close as resolved or no? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :I've removed the closure. More discussion needed. Elaborating shortly. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 19:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :Justifications for inclusion here are very thin. Relative importance of facts to the topic Trump and religion is assessed by editors applying editorial judgement as to whether facts are trivial, which is one of the weakest ways of ensuring NPOV. The first article linked makes an effort to contextualize facts in how important they are to Trump's religion overall, but it is a weak source, given &quot;there is no consensus on whether the Deseret News is independent of the LDS Church.&quot; Better sources exist to assess what facts are significant re Trump and religion, the key one being [https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-40758-1] &lt;ins&gt;which &quot;Provides a scholarly retrospective on the presidential legacies of... Trump [re; religion]&lt;/ins&gt;.[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 19:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::Useful summary of Trump's relationship with religion in the context of his biography and politics (page 284) &quot;Yet a closer look revealed that Christianity, and to a lesser extent Judaism, played a significant and complex role in Trump’s life. For several decades, the Trump family selected the Fifth Avenue church, Marble Collegiate, as a spiritual home. Marble’s pastor, Methodist minister Norman Vincent Peale, embodied an unorthodox, psychology-based Christian preaching, pro-business message, and connections to Republican Party politicians. After Donald Trump’s parents died, he frequently consulted a nondenominational, televangelist pastor Paula White. Meanwhile, Trump’s daughter Ivanka converted to Judaism and married the Orthodox Jew real estate developer Jared Kushner in 2009.&quot; [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258682804&amp;oldid=1258675545 Rewrote using above]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Rollinginhisgrave}} you have not established consensus for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1258693912 this restoration]; please self-revert. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 02:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Hi {{u|Nikkimaria}}, happy to revert, before I do could you clarify what you mean by &quot;establish consensus for this restoration&quot;? I understand what constitutes a revert is contentious, but I also believe I was following [[WP:BRD|bold, revert, discuss]]. This is as you deleted the discussion on religion, which has been in the article for a long time, even if not in this form, and I reverted it. If you were reverting my change in the content of the religion section, you would restore the previous content. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I reverted your addition of new religion-related content, and request that you get consensus for it before restoring. Is what you posted above a direct quote from the source? If so, your proposal also seems like [[WP:CLOP|very close paraphrasing]], except for the vaguer last sentence. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 02:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::{{u|Nikkimaria}} I've [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258699797&amp;oldid=1258693912 restored] the text before my edit. My edit was not an addition but a replacement. The above is a direct quote and I spent a fair bit of time trying to reword but apparently did so poorly. Summaries of summaries are always difficult, I'll have another go. :::::::You initially described the content as &quot;overdetail&quot;, could you elaborate why you think so in light of the quote I provided? &quot;Christianity, and to a lesser extent Judaism, played a significant and complex role in Trump’s life&quot; (Carty &amp; Rozell, 2023) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:13, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Not everything that can be sourced warrants inclusion, and this particular material doesn't provide a lot of concrete value - what does it mean to &quot;play a significant role&quot;? Having a Jewish family member doesn't mean that Judaism as a religion influences your views. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::The chapter the text is summarising elaborates what it means to play a significant role. I'll come back to this in an hour or so when I have source access and expand. I'm unsure the article text will be able to convey this significance beyond listing significant facts without being very long, it may be eligible for a split into a standalone article on Trump's relationship with religion. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Donald Trump has no significant relationship with religion, outside of occasionally using an upside-down bible as a political prop. No place in this article, and the idea of a standalone article is absurd. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 04:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::{{u|Zaathras}}, I will be unavailable to discuss this for the next hour. For when I am available, would you be able to provide reliable sources of equivalent quality attesting that {{tq|Trump has no significant relationship with religion}}? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}}A few hours later, here nonetheless. *Peale: Attended by whole family. Entrepreneurial approach to Christianity appealed to Trump and his dad. Peale presided his marriage to Ivana. Relationship expanded in 80s, such as using Peale as a character reference when entering Atlanta casino industry. Endorsed in Peale's autobiography. Business ethic in 80s reflected a secular interpretation of Peale's Christianity. Relationship to Marbles Church heavily emphasized during Marla scandal. Peale's successor officiated wedding to Marla. *White: Frequently consulted White after parents death after reaching out to her in 2001, serving as a personal pastor. With Melania, stood by White during scandals (misuse of funds, second divorce, bankruptcy of church. *Judaism: Ivanka-Kushner marriage notable in and of itself. Kushner's family contacts got Trump a speech at AIPAC, promoting Israel's interests. Coming up to 2016, Trump courted Jewish and Evangelical groups. Trump made inroads with the Jewish vote, who had traditionally been Democratic voters. Enrolled conservative Jews to leadership positions. Kushner is attributed as responsible for changing platform to Israel to rejecting Palestinian state promotion. Kushner's family had a long-term relationship to Netanyahu (he stayed in Jared's bedroom when Jared was a teenager?) so on. '''Roughly rewritten proposal, clarifying &quot;play a significant role&quot;''': For decades, Trump and his family attended the [[Marble Collegiate Church]], maintaining a personal relationship with [[Protestant]] preacher [[Norman Vincent Peale]]. Peale, who emphasized a pro-business, psychology-based ministry, is credited with influencing Trump's business ethic that emphasized &quot;success&quot; during the 1980s. Following his parent's deaths, the non-denominational televangelist [[Paula White]] served as Trump's personal pastor, being frequently consulted and sometimes defended by Trump. After his daughter Ivanka married Jewish businessman [[Jared Kushner]] in 2009, Trump successfully courted the Democratic Jewish vote, employing the help of Kushner and his family to write policy and reach Israeli organizations and Jewish voters. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :This still has a lot of detail that isn't needed, and I don't think Israeli policy belongs in a personal-life section - you could propose incorporating that particular piece in a rewrite of the existing Israel section. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:30, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::What information do you think can be cut while still establishing the significance in-text of these core facts (Peale, White, Kushner)? A rewrite may be the best to express this. I do think your suggestion to move some to the Israel section is a good idea: it would help the article be cohesive rather than the current siloing approach and the significance would still be established. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::Based on the discussion above there does not seem to be consensus to include Peale at this point. &quot;Following his parents' death, televangelist [[Paula White]] became Trump's personal pastor&quot; covers White. I don't think anything regarding Kushner belongs in this context, though as mentioned might elsewhere. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 02:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've challenged that consensus by introducing a source which supersedes those previously discussed. I agree with you that given &lt;del&gt;Kushner&lt;/del&gt;&lt;ins&gt;his relationship with Judaism&lt;/ins&gt; is largely significant relating to politics, moving it there would be the best place. However, I don't think as the article is written it fits in anywhere there at the moment, I'll work on rewriting it over the next few weeks. Until then, this is the best, albeit imperfect place. I can expand if this doesn't make sense. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Nikkimaria, I favor mention of Peale (noted in a different thread, not the above discussion). Rollinginhisgrave, we have a Harv warning error because Carty &amp; Rozell is unused (I'd remove it but wonder if it will be back soon). [[:Category:Harv_and_Sfn_template_errors#Displaying_error_messages|Trappist the Monk's script]] will show these errors. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{u|SusanLesch}} I did remove it, unsure how it's returned. I have got Trappist the Monk's excellent script, we can remove for now, not too much effort to add it back in. I may need to make a formal proposal below of the text change, although I hope Nikkimaria can weed out any excessive text before that. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 16:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Correction, I might be off by a generation, Nikkimaria. I am reading that [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/10/how-self-help-author-norman-vincent-peale-influenced-donald-trump.html Mary Trump says] Peale influenced Fred Trump (Donald's dad) the most. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 21:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::In which case his article would be the better place for Peale. As to {{tq|this is the best, albeit imperfect place}} - no, it can wait for a rewrite of a different section. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:44, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Agree and he's already there. I found [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Trump_Revealed/x2jUDQAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;bsq=%22norman%20vincent%20peale%22 one paragraph on p. 81] in Kranish &amp; Fisher (2016) that says he was important, a mentor to Donald, who taught him to think of positive outcomes, but Peale wasn't really mentioned again. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:00, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::*{{tq|his article would be the better place for Peale}} I am unsure the best way to respond to this. Could you expand on your reasoning here, preferably with reference to policies and guidelines? ::::::::*{{tq|no, it can wait for a rewrite of a different section}} The only relevant carveout for excluding DUE content I can think of here is [[MOS:TRIVIA]], which notes {{tq|Otherwise valid content should ultimately be removed if there isn't a good place for it}}. There is a good place for it here, a discussion on his relationship with religion. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 10:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::I don't agree that that ''is'' a good place for it, because what you're proposing is much more relevant to his political career than his ''personal'' religious views. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 00:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Request for consensus: Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == OK. Here's my proposal: that a section be added that reports the ''public discussion of concerns'' about his health, which are now a major part of public discourse. It should obviously not ''itself'' speculate on Trump's mental fitness, only report on the comments of [[WP:RS]] according to the [[WP:NPOV]] guidelines. This would not violate [[WP:MEDRS]], because it would not express an opinion on his mental state, only report on the opinions of others. Opinions, please? &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 11:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :A consensus/new consensus can be established without an RfC. You've already started the discussion on this page. Opening an RfC at this point would be improper, IMO. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 11:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :If you insist on going that route, this is the procedure: [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 11:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC) * Just to start off: '''support''' as proposer, per comments above. &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 11:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Anome, I suggest you notify the talk page of the article from which your proposed content originated. That page is 6 years old, so the editors there are likely knowledgeable.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 20:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Best 'not' to hand out such a notification at another talkpage, Anome. Less that be construed as [[WP:CANVASS|canvassing]] for support. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''', it is media speculation, not a clinical diagnosis, and this is a BLP. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''yes''' it is time, esp after the 39 minute dance this week the topic has received quite a bit of coverage. whether it is a 'diagnosis' or not is not an issue, a encyclopedia is not drawing a medically-based conclusion it is just reflecting the preponderance of the sources. [[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] ([[User talk:ValarianB|talk]]) 13:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *''' No''' or at best, very limited yes. I know we don't cite other wiki pages. But just for comparison, the [[Joe Biden]] main page only gives it about a vague sentence or two, and that's for a figure who's cognitive decline has been much more prominent and widely discussed by RS. Also, that section is titled much more neutrally simply as &quot;Age and health.&quot; So overall, this is a &quot;no&quot; unless ''significantly'' scaled back. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 13:50, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' It looks like they are not sincere age and health concerns but political attacks with no consensus of medical professionals. In the last stages of an election campaign, I think it's just part of an expected full court press. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 14:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:That's a straw man. The topic is concerns, which have been found NOTABLE on the abundantly sourced wiki page from which the recent content and deletion originated. If it were a medical diagnosis, the lead of this page would simply state &quot;Donald Trump is the demented former POTUS and the demented candidate for 2024.&quot; But it isn't a diagnosis and nobody's suggested it is. There should not be a formal poll of any sort here. It's already under discussion and {{ping|GoodDay}} has provided no policy or content-based rationale not to include this summary of a relevant article, similar to many others on this page. Lacking any such rationale, the removal appears meddlesome and destructive.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 15:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :::Are you suggesting editors who oppose the addition, are disruptive? [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' - as he hasn't been diagnosed with having any such medical issues. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' - We are not going to use non-MEDRS soucres to speculated on someone's mental or physical health. We wouldn't do it with Joe or anyone else. It's also laughable un-encyclopedic. Also it should probably be an RFC to overturn two RFCs and a bunch of previous discussions that all found the same thing. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 14:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1232653181&amp;oldid=1232634293#2024_presidential_campaign]. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::Ugh, well we shouldn't. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 16:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::I don't see a way to &quot;unring&quot; that bell. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Not to point fingers or drag this out even further (see below), but &lt;s&gt;this&lt;/s&gt; (correction, see comment by Just10A above) seems to be where comparisons to the Biden article actually started. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC) * '''Yes''' See [[Joe Biden#2024 presidential campaign]]. &quot;After the debate raised questions about his health and age, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets&quot;. I understand BLP's require extra care, but &quot;concern&quot; doesn't seem to be [[MOS:WEASEL| weasely]] enough, as long as it's attributed in a verifiable context outside of VOICE. If the same rules that apply to Biden also apply to Trump, &quot;Refuses to release medical records&quot; with &quot;attributed concerns&quot; is where the bar currently sits. See &quot;More than 230 doctors and health care providers, most of whom are backing Vice President Kamala Harris, call on Trump to release medical records&quot; [https://abcnews.go.com/Health/trump-harris-medical-records-after-vp-releases-doctors/story?id=114822811 ABC] [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/03/health/trump-health-records.html NYT], [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-harris-medical-records-doctors-b2629175.html Independent], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-health-records-doctors-for-harris/ CBS]. Also see [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:And Biden did step down, is there any indication of similar pressure on Trump from within the GOP? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::It's not a qualifier as far as I know. Was the &quot;raised questions about Biden's health&quot; only allowed to be added AFTER he stepped down? Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::Well I recall making the same arguments there as here, and it all changed when it actually had an impact on the election. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::Let's look at the tape. {{tq|Looks like concerns about Biden's health were added on the 4th of July}} &quot;After the debate raised questions about his health, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets&quot;[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1232653181&amp;oldid=1232634293#2024_presidential_campaign] and {{tq|Biden didn't resign until July 21st.}} Did I miss something? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::NO, but I did, as I had opposed that in the past, and did not see the addition. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::I can see wanting to err on the side of caution, but the cat is out of the bag and fairness is the name of the game, and other such idioms... [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 16:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::So we could say then &quot;After a series of rallies raised questions about his health, Trump faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Republicana and the editorial boards of several major news outlets&quot;, would this be supported by RS? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::AFAIK There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar. Only that it must be based on what the sources say. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::1.) Do not substantively edit your comments after editors have already replied to them without indicating it. That is against [[WP:REDACT|guidelines]]. *:::::::::2.) I don't know how you can argue {{tq|&quot;There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar&quot;}} when ''just'' above that you argued {{tq| &quot;Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe&quot;}} and {{tq|&quot;fairness is the name of the game.&quot;}} *:::::::::I agree that policy doesn't mandate they match, but you gotta pick a side. You can't argue &quot;Policy says they don't need to be similar&quot; and then simultaneously say &quot;They gotta similar or else it's unfair.&quot; [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 20:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::@[[User:Just10A|Just10A]] If I acted improperly I apologize, as it wasn't my intent to mislead anyone, hence the clarification. I wasn't aware adding afaik is considered a substantive change. *::::::::::I believe my yes vote implies that I have picked a side. TMK I'm allowed to make observations and express views on the appearance of possible inconsistencies in the application of policy in good faith. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::::No problem. I was referring to you adding the ABC source in your earlier comment though just to be clear. I agree that adding AFAIK is more minor. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 22:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::::Oh, then I was way off on what I thought you were referring to. I was about to start adding TMK and AFAIK to all of my sentences. I meant to add the ABC source in my original edit, but I goofed. Truly sorry if that screwed something up, I've had similar experiences so I empathize. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::@[[User:Just10A|Just10A]] I would briefly add that, TMK the application of policy and the substance of the context being proposed do not represent two conflicting interpretations of the same policies AFAIK. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::True, but it also means they are not the same situation, which was my point, that they are not analogous. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *{{ec}} I'd like to see someone confirm what sort of {{em|secondary}} coverage is here, but [[WP:MEDRS]] is irrelevant here because biographical information is {{strong|not biomedical information}}: we should almost never include things like how a disease works or how it is diagnosed (except insofar to mention the subject {{em|isn't}}, when that's the case) on a biographical article in the first place. That is not to say we should not ask for the absolute best quality sources, but MEDRS is an inappropriate guideline here. Also, discussion on this topic will also need to consider how and where primary sources are used on the subarticle. Due weight concerns don't go away simply because the content happens to be on another article, and not mentioning something we have an entire subarticle on even once in the main article is close to essentially {{em|forcing}} the subarticle to be a POV fork, an outcome I'd expect neither those supporting nor opposing inclusion should want. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 22:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC) ::I also don't see how [[WP:MEDRS]] (identifying reliable third-party published secondary sources accurately reflecting current knowledge on [[WP:BMI|biomedical information]] (information relating to or could reasonably be perceived as relating to human health)) applies. If a majority of reliable sources describes the candidate's speech as increasingly incoherent and his [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/10/14/trump-music-sways-town-hall/ behavior as increasingly bizarre], it's not a medical diagnosis. Consensus 39: {{tq|This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office.}} [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC) :No. This is still a BLP. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 22:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Comment''' For anyone interested in additional details about &quot;[[Age and health concerns about Joe Biden]]&quot; being added to the LEAD of [[Joe Biden]]'s BLP, they appeared about nine days before he bowed out of the 2024 presidential race. It made it onto the LEAD on July 12, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1234038899]. On the 18th a CFN tag was added [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235217497&amp;oldid=1235161604], then removed [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235238577&amp;oldid=1235228593], then re-added and removed again on the 19th [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1235500273], back on the 20th [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235582523&amp;oldid=1235536174], removed same day [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235583325&amp;oldid=1235582523], then again re-added by {{U|FMSky}} on the 20th [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1235637630], then removed again same day [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235644630&amp;oldid=1235637630], re-added same day [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235725309&amp;oldid=1235695525], and finally within the next 8-24 hours he dropped out [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235877129&amp;oldid=1235725309]. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 02:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ::Let me clarify 2 more things then I'm outta here. First, I goofed again when I pinged FMSky, total brain fart that might be perceived as intentional CANVAS or sabotage, I'm just tired from editing all day and got distracted putting diffs together. It's no excuse it's just being honest, you can check my contribs. I doubt they would agree with my vote anyway. Second, I'm not saying this is a good reason to do the same thing here, I just think it's relevant somehow. Sorry if I screwed up, it wont happen again (here at least). Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 02:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Include'''. In the last 5-14 days since Harris released her &quot;excellent health&quot; report, there has been renewed coverage in RS about Trump's refusal to release his medical records[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/03/health/trump-health-records.html]&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=2024-10-12 |title=Harris releases a health report, shifting the focus to Trump's age and health concerns |url=https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/harris-releases-a-health-report-shifting-the-focus-to-trumps-age-and-health-concerns/articleshow/114175162.cms?from=mdr |access-date=2024-10-17 |work=The Economic Times |issn=0013-0389}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=News |first=A. B. C. |title=Trump would be the oldest person to become president. He's not sharing health details |url=https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/trump-oldest-person-become-president-sharing-health-details-114859051 |access-date=2024-10-17 |website=ABC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;[https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/despite-old-age-donald-trump-refuses-to-share-health-details-in-public-124101601405_1.html][https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/06/us/politics/trump-speeches-age-cognitive-decline.html] and the recent town hall that was even beyond the usual performance standard.[https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/despite-old-age-donald-trump-refuses-to-share-health-details-in-public-124101601405_1.html] Even after Biden it was mentioned [https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2024/07/12/voters-worried-biden-trump-age/74367988007/][https://pro.morningconsult.com/analysis/donald-trump-age-concerns-august-2024][https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/22/trump-age-health/][https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/07/24/trump-age-presidential-candidate-biden-us-election/] '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''&lt;span style=&quot;border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} :*'''Yes''', there is polling and Trump hasn't disclosed his medical records. :[[User:JohnAdams1800|JohnAdams1800]] ([[User talk:JohnAdams1800|talk]]) 02:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Yes'''. People say that it should not be included because there is no MEDRS-level source that lists Trump's health. However, this did not stop concerns about Biden's health being added to the Joe Biden page, nor did it stop the creation of the [[Age and health concerns about Joe Biden]] Wikipedia page. There is also an [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] page. Wikipedia is governed by the consensus of reliable sources, and multiple reliable sources have brought up this topic to the extent that an entire individual page on the wiki exists to cover it, thus the content is [[WP:DUE]]. To not ''at least mention it'' on this page would be a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[Wikipedia:I just don't like it|I don't like it]] through the introduction of editorial bias by having Wikipedia editors decide that the issue is &quot;not important&quot; enough to mention on this page, despite multiple RS clearly making the case that this issue is worth mentioning. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:58, 20 October 2024 (UTC) * Regarding the rally in Oaks, PA that's been mentioned in this section and in various news media sources, here's the full video of it from C-SPAN [https://www.c-span.org/video/?539179-1/president-trump-hosts-town-hall-oaks-pennsylvania]. I think it's been mischaracterized as age and health concerns for Trump. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 07:28, 17 October 2024 (UTC) * '''Yes'''! Its absurd having a long article [[Age_and_health_concerns_about_Donald_Trump]] with 120 references but trying to hide that in the main article. This is really a hot topic in the media (US and abroad) so deleting it here is really ridiculous. Especially with the [[Joe Biden]] entry featuring [[Joe_Biden#Age_and_health|such an paragraph]]. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 19:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ::''Comment:'' Amen to this. Biden has never been diagnosed with dementia, so it would be wildly improper to suggest that he does, per [[WP:MEDRS]], but we ''can and should'' report the widely [[WP:RS]]-reported ''public political controversy'' regarding the possibility of dementia, per [[WP:NPOV]], as it is politically significant. Trump should not be treated as a special case who is somehow privileged over others. &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 06:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC) * '''Yes''' for basically the reason Andol gave. There's a long article on these concerns, so we clearly have ample sourcing for them, so it's weird we're not mentioning them much here. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 01:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Support'''. The decline may not have been as obvious as Biden's because it started from a much lower baseline, but it was noticeable and noticed. Just this week, there was the 39-minute musical interlude at the Oaks, PA, town hall; the non-responsive rambling during the Bloomberg interview; [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/20/us/politics/trump-meandering-remarks.html on Friday, a 10-year old asked Trump] on [[https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-says-he-surprised-vp-kamala-harris-skipped-al-smith-dinner-terrible-decision Fox&amp;Fiends (at 34:26)] who his favorite president was when he was little. Trump said &quot;Reagan&quot;, then rambled on about Lincoln, the Civil War, Ukraine, Russia, October 7, buying oil from Iran, etc.; and at yesterday's rally in Latrobe, PA, where he [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/19/us/politics/trump-vulgarity-pennsylvania-rally.html &quot;spewed crude and vulgar remarks&quot;] and regaled the crowd with tales of Arnold Palmer being &quot;strong and tough&quot; and &quot;unbelievable&quot; in the shower, adding to the &quot;impression of [Trump] as increasingly unfiltered and undisciplined&quot;. Quoting the AP headline: [https://apnews.com/article/trump-arnold-palmer-closing-arguments-latrobe-pennsylvania-2bea9620c523e531a55259200215284e Trump kicks off a Pennsylvania rally by talking about Arnold Palmer’s genitalia]. [https://www.npr.org/2024/10/20/g-s1-29100/trump-pennsylvania-rally-arnold-palmer NPR called it] &quot;an unusually energetic rally for the former president, who has looked and sounded tired of late while doing multiple events and interviews a day across multiple swing states&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Gold|first=Michael| url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/19/us/politics/trump-vulgarity-pennsylvania-rally.html|title=At a Pennsylvania Rally, Trump Descends to New Levels of Vulgarity|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=October 19, 2024|access-date=October 20, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Bender|first=Michael C.| url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/20/us/politics/trump-meandering-remarks.html|title=Four of Trump’s Most Meandering Remarks This Week|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=October 20, 2024|access-date=October 20, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:50, 20 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} *'''Oaks Town Hall''' — (Good-faith [[WP:RTP|refactoring]] of distracting side issue was reverted. The following posts were in response to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADonald_Trump&amp;diff=1251650376&amp;oldid=1251639023 this]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ) ::It wasn't a rally. It was a &quot;[[Town hall meeting|town hall]]&quot; staged by the Trump campaign, with Republican operatives posing as &quot;constituents&quot; and reading off cue cards. One of them, &quot;Angelina who had voted Democrat all my life and was from a Democrat union household&quot; had to correct herself because she forgot to say &quot;union household&quot;; she's Angelina Banks who was the Republican nominee for Township Commissioner and State Representative in Pennsylvania's 154th and lost with 19.3% to Nelson's 80.7%.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Wolff |first=J.D. |url=https://www.meidasplus.com/p/busted-former-republican-candidates |title=Busted! Former Republican Candidates Posed As Constituents at Trump's PA Town Hall |work=[[MeidasTouch]] |date=October 17, 2024 |access-date=October 17, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=https://southbendtribune.com/elections/results/race/2022-11-08-state_house-PA-39234/ |title=2022 Pennsylvania State House - District 154 Election Results |work=[[South Bend Tribune]]|date=January 26, 2023 |access-date=October 17, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; Mischaracterized? The campaign had prepared 10 Q&amp;As but [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/us/politics/trump-town-hall-dj-music.html after five] the Q&amp;A turned into a [https://www.npr.org/2024/10/15/g-s1-28276/trump-town-hall-ends-with-extended-musical-fest-while-he-stands-on-stage bizarre musical event] with Trump giving a minion a playlist and then standing on stage not even dancing. Just standing, occasionally swaying, jerking his arms, finger-pointing at the audience, and making faces/smiling(?). &lt;small&gt;And, in keeping with the musical theme, two days later Fox unearthed the set of [[Hee Haw]] for an all-women town hall with an [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/16/media/fox-news-women-town-hall-supporters/index.html audience of MAGA supporters] asking curated puff questions.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 11:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} ::{{tq|I think it's been mischaracterized...}} You personal analysis of reliable sources is of no concern to this page. If the sources cover this as an example of the subject's mental decline, then so shall we. Not necessarily in the proverbial &quot;WikiVoice&quot; but as &quot;sources say.&quot; For now. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 12:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' There are no reliable secondary sources reporting that Trump has age-related cognitive decline, just speculation from his opponents. One editor mentioned that we covered this for Biden, but it was in the article about his recent presidential campaign. That's where this informtion belongs. It isn't possible to list every accusation made by his opponents in this article, so there is a high bar for inclusion. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 11:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC) :: Speculation from his opponents? You mean denial of his supporters? I think it is obvious to ''everyone except is supporters'' that he has massive issues. This is not a political campaign. It is a topic reported in international media all over the world, even making headlines. And everyone can see it. The only news outlets that don't report on this are the conservative media in US! Think about that. Greetings from Germany, where Trumps decline seems to be better covered than in (the conservative) parts of the US media. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 19:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC) ::Is there something askew with these sources? They seem to be speculating at the very least. ::[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/06/us/politics/trump-speeches-age-cognitive-decline.html NYT: Trump’s Speeches, Increasingly Angry and Rambling, Reignite the Question of Age] ::[https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-age-speeches-rambling-mental-fitness-b2625103.html Independent: Trump’s rambling and angry speeches raise questions about his age and fitness to serve four years] ::[https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-cognitive-decline-election-2024-b2593296.html Independent: Experts say Trump’s speaking style shows ‘potential indications of cognitive decline’] ::[https://newrepublic.com/post/182908/video-trump-cognitive-decline-memory-issues New Republic: Watch: Embarrassing Video Reveals Trump’s Alarming Cognitive Decline] ::[https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2024/09/trump-harris-debate-cognitive-decline/679803/ The Atlantic: Trump’s Repetitive Speech Is a Bad Sign] ::[https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2024/05/18/biden-trump-age-cognitive-decline/ WaPo: What science tells us about Biden, Trump and evaluating an aging brain] ::[https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2024-09-25/2024-election-trump-mental-acuity LA Times: Trump’s rhetorical walkabouts: A sign of ‘genius’ or cognitive decline?] ::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 02:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC) :::Reliable sources lose their reliability when they express politically motivated opinion and manipulation during a heated election campaign. Buried in one of those sources is a glimmer of rational journalistic integrity, &quot;...the experts in memory, psychology, and linguistics who spoke to STAT noted that they couldn’t give a diagnosis without conducting an examination...&quot;. Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:17, 20 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Not according to policy, bias it not a justification for rejecting a source, only lack of factual accuracy. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:27, 20 October 2024 (UTC) ::::: Don't fall for the bias claim. It doesn't make you biased if you report on those glaring issues. They are obvious. Rather the opposite is true. It takes willful denial, i.e. bias, to not see it. The whole point here is that Trump as a whole is such an abnormal person that he has shifted the goalposts to such a distance that there is no standard to measure him and thus he can get away with anything. And that is a problem for Wikipedia, because Biden is compared to normal people (making him look old), while Trump is compared to himself. Add the near-total polarization in the US, which has his supporters deny everything, even the possibility that there could be anything. Please step back and look up, how the Rest of the world looks at Trump and this election. It's not how the US see it. Trust me. 80 % of the population is in utter disbelieve how Trump with all of his glaring issues even got there, lest how someone who is right in his mind can even think a second of voting for him. And we do really debate ''if'' he has issues? Claiming he hasn't is biased, not the other way round. This is a clear situation where the truth is ''not'' halfway in the middle. Look at [https://x.com/harris_wins/status/1847767276998557876 this]. Just imagine Joe Biden or Kamala Harris being on stage bragging about the size of some dudes dick. The outcry would be thermonuclear and it would be broadly covered in his or her article in literally five seconds. Here? Thats Trump, normal day in the office, so what. Irrelevant, he made a thousand similar remarks. And that creates a systematic bias pro Trump, because there is no standard he doesn't fall short of, and therefore nothing is noteworthy, no matter how egregious. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 23:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' - If it was to be included, it would have to be introduced as mere speculation because of MEDRS, but I do not believe there has been any particulary significant RS reporting of speculation about cognitive decline as there was about Biden nor any substantive reason (like a drop out over it) to include it. Trump's speculated cognitive decline has only been popping in the news for the past couple months because he's now the old guy on the ticket, and Dems naturally want to capitalize on that. Not [[WP:DUE]] at this time. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC) **{{ping|R. G. Checkers}} And yet we have all the cites from mainstream media [[WP:RS]] cited above. Mysteriously, this sort of reporting is regarded as [[WP:NPOV]] when it comes to Biden, yet not for Trump. As Elon Musk would say, &quot;Interesting.&quot; Is there any point at which you might regarded the public debate about Trump's mental competence noteworthy enough to mention here, or are you just waiting for the election to be over? &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 17:48, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **:Yes, and it won’t be because he danced at a rally. It would be if there was sustained coverage over months long periods with concerns of cognitive decline or if he literally had drop out of the race because of it. But do I think that 3 weeks before an election with politics flaring and a sudden emphasis on his alleged mental decline is a good reason for inclusion? I answer no. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:18, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **::In other words, [[WP:DUE]] but not before the election? I didn't know WP had to adhere to DOJ guidelines. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **:::Is there some policy I'm not aware of that gives a waiting period, especially if your name isn't Joe Biden? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **::::That's not exactly what Mr. Checkers said. I agree that we should ensure the content is [[WP:DUE]] by waiting to see if it's a blip, or something carried through by the sources for more than a few days. Space4Time3Continuum2x, you are usually a stalwart adherent of both established consensus and conservative application of policy - what gives? [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 21:08, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADonald_Trump&amp;diff=1252267526&amp;oldid=1252231796 Last week happened]. &lt;small&gt;(I'm still trying to unimagine the unbelievable Arnold Palmer in the shower — a few extra nipples, a rudimentary third leg, a tattoo of Richard Nixon on his back? Although that one is on Roger Stone, I believe, another Trump friend.)&lt;/small&gt; This isn't new. [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/06/us/politics/trump-genius-mental-health.html NYT in 2018]: &quot;Trump's self-absorption, impulsiveness, lack of empathy, obsessive focus on slights, tenuous grasp of facts and penchant for sometimes far-fetched conspiracy theories have generated endless op-ed columns, magazine articles, books, professional panel discussions and cable television speculation.&quot; Now we have a flood of reporting on what was obvious for months for everyone who watched Trump rallys on C-SPAN. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::Your personal analysis or perceived opinion on what's &quot;obvious&quot; about political candidates is irrelevant to the discussion at issue. You're getting seriously close to [[WP:NOTFORUM]]. Quit rambling and stick to neutral discussion about the topic at hand to improve the encyclopedia. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 16:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::::[[WP:NOPA]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::::Asking you to stop violating policy is not a personal attack. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 18:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::This has been reported on maybe as far back as 2017. **:::::[https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2017/02/19/psychologist-calls-on-colleagues-to-sign-petition-for-trumps-removal/ 2017] **:::::[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2017/09/22/is-trump-mentally-ill-or-is-america-psychiatrists-weigh-in/ 2017] **:::::[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-dangerous-mental-illness-yale-psychiatrist-conference-us-president-unfit-james-gartner-duty-to-warn-a7694316.html 2017] **:::::[https://newrepublic.com/article/140702/medical-theory-donald-trumps-bizarre-behavior 2017] **:::::[https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2017-04-21/mental-health-professionals-debate-ethics-in-the-age-of-trump 2017] **:::::[https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2024-01-26/mental-acuity-questions-catch-up-with-trump Jan 2024] **:::::No one seems to be suggesting this goes into the lead sentence, and as far as policy goes, eerily similar material to [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] made it into the the Biden article as far back as July 4th, and it's STILL there. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 19:12, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::As is frequently pointed out to new users of this page, the fact that some other page on Wikipedia has a different consensus has no bearing on this one. That is usually understood when we are resisting putting something positive in, but seems all to quickly jettisoned when convenient. Regarding the Oaks Town Hall which precipitated this thread, neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources that Trump had some kind of mental episode. See for example: https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/trump-town-hall-derailed-after-medical-emergencies-crowd/story?id=114796716. I remain unconvinced that the content should be added. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::::{{tq|&quot;neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources&quot;}} **:::::::These threads get so long it's hard to keep track. Please link or cite examples of partisan and neutral sources to which you're referring if you get the chance, it would be very helpful. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::Judging by the headlines, we shouldn't use the 2017 sources per the Goldwater rule (psychiatrists/psychologists diagnosing people they haven't seen as patients). [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:45, 22 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::::Also, I may a bit confused as to where this thread begins and ends. I may be unintentionally conflating the Oaks town hall and the Proposal: Age and health concerns...Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 21:38, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *The 39 minute weird man-dancing (partly to YMCA, a song about gay hookups of all things) may actually be the worst example of his cognitive decline as he was quiet instead of rambling nonsense. Indeed, it could be an example of something not at all recent. It certainly doesn't belong in this article. Perhaps elsewhere. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 00:18, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *:Not sure if you've seen the unbiased raw video of the Oaks, PA event. On the webpage of C-SPAN's presentation of the full video [https://www.c-span.org/video/?539179-1/president-trump-hosts-town-hall-oaks-pennsylvania], to the right there is a list of the points of interest in the video: Gov. Kristi Noem (R-SD) Remarks, Fmr. President Trump Remarks, Affordable Homeownership, Family Request Congressional Hearing, Cost of Living, Immigration, Russia-Ukraine War, Immigration &amp; Deportation, Medical Emergency. Notably missing from C-SPAN's list is &quot;weird man-dancing&quot;. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *::What's your point? The C-SPAN video shows the entire event. The music starts at 45:00 and continues until the end. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *:::For context, note that the first medical emergency began at 39:00, 6 minutes before your start time. Viewing the video starting at 39:00 will give a better idea of what's going on. Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 23:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *::::I've seen the video and I don't see your point either. Trump just said that he is ahead in every one of the 50 states in the polls. Every state. His goofy, silent dancing was far more rational. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 00:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} What particularly irritates me here is the double standard of invoking [[WP:MEDRS]] in regard to this. No-one is asking for Wikipedia to state that Trump has dementia, or that he has suffered a medical cognitive decline; the issue here is that his increasingly erratic behavior has become a significant news story, and is being reported in reputable MSM sources such as the NYT and WP, who have bent over backwards to be fair to Trump, wouldn't have dreamed of doing eveen a few months ago. Yet for some reason, we're not allowed to use these [[WP:RS]] to report these events and the public concern about them in the MSM. This is a profoundly un-encyclopedic things to do that breaks the fundamental [[WP:NPOV]] policy. Rejecting any mention of significant major MSM coverage because you don't like it is just another form of [[WP:OR]], &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 17:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :But that is the consensus on this article. That MEDRS sources are required, even to have the conversation technically. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 17:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :: If this is absolute, then it could not be in the Biden article. But it is. Therefore there is no way to deny the pro Trump bias. MEDRS cannot only protect Trump, but ignore Biden. To me the deletion sounds politically motivated. And that is a major problem. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 20:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Andol|Andol]] Look at the top of the page in [[Talk:Donald_Trump#Current_consensus|current consensus #39]]. Nothing is politically motived. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 22:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I made a [[WP:BOLD]] edit to see how this plays out [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1253059503&amp;oldid=1253057147]. Maybe there is consensus? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 04:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I'm good with it and hope it sticks. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 14:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::Sorry DN, could you link to your change? I can't seem to find it. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:17, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::He changed it on the Joe Biden page, not the Trump one. I had the same confusion initially. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 20:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Ah. Thank you. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Please do NOT refer to me as &quot;he&quot;. They or them is fine. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I disagree MEDRS applies there any more than it does here, but I don't particularly care if it's in the lead or how much weight to give to it, so long as it's there. I {{em|will}} revert if someone tries to remove all three paragraphs about it in the other article though. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 10:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::An editor has now re-added [[Age and health concerns about Joe Biden]] back into the lead on [[Joe Biden]]'s BLP. I am not going to remove it, and agree that we should leave it. IMO [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] now seems over-[[WP:DUE|DUE]] here. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::Mx. Nipples, the existence of a section on another page has absolutely zero bearing on what should be on this one. None. We go by consensus, not by precedent. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 05:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC) {{cot|{{small|1=Off-topic about gender pronouns. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)}}}} ::::::::Please do not refer to me as &quot;Mx.&quot; or &quot;Mr.&quot; as that appears to be your intent. They/them is accurate. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{small|(Given that &quot;x&quot; is nowhere near &quot;r&quot; on a keyboard, I'm guessing &quot;Mx.&quot; was not a typo but an attempt to be gender neutral. It can be read as a convenient shorthand for &quot;Mr., Ms., or M-other, as you please&quot;. It's the best attempt available, since &quot;They/them Nipples&quot; would be nonsensical. Maybe we don't need to go any further down this rabbit hole, at least not on this page.) &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC)}} ::::::::::I simply asked for them not to call me that, I did not get upset or make a personal attack, I just made a simple request. I'm aware of what Mx. means and I simply do not wish be referred to in that manner. I do not care why you think it's any of your business or why you feel the need to intervene here, and that is a rabbit hole that certainly does not belong here. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::{{small|I read {{tq|1=&quot;Mr.&quot; as that appears to be your intent}} to mean you thought they meant (intended) &quot;Mr.&quot;. Sorry if I misread easily-misread writing. {{tq|1=I do not care why you think it's any of your business or why you feel the need to intervene here}} - Now you're gettin' me riled. Look, you comment on this page, regardless of the topic, and you open yourself up to replies from anybody. There are no &quot;private&quot; conversations here or almost anywhere else at Wikipedia. You want a &quot;private&quot; conversation, use email. That's how it works, like it or not. End. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:49, 28 October 2024 (UTC)}} ::::::::::::You're the one that brought it up ''here'', and I have since moved it to a personal talk page, where it belongs. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC) {{cob}} :::::::↑↑↑↑ Agree as to process. Other articles never affect this article ''unless a community consensus says they do for a specific discrete situation''. This is a common misconception, understandable given the human desire for consistency, but you won't find it anywhere in policy, and not for lack of attempts to make it so. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::That was more of an aside. See Riposte's removal of cited content on the current subject, referring to a now seemingly dormant discussion. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Yes.''' It's been covered extensively in media reports, which is the only criteria that really matters here. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 17:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Question''' [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253835469&amp;oldid=1253814840 edit] - There has been no further discussion here for the last few days. What is still being discussed? BTW, &quot;age and health concerns for Joe Biden&quot; was added back into his BLP in the lead, and I see no further arguments over MEDRS. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *:If you have a problem with the Biden page, take it to the Biden page. There is currently no consensus to add the disputed material to this page. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 05:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::I never had a problem with the Biden BLP, but I asked you what is left to discuss here. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:20, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::I'll ask again. What is left to discuss? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:27, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *:::I agree with you that there isn't a ton left to discuss. But the discussion did not end with your proposed addition achieving consensus. As already outlined in this thread: (1) [[WP:NOTSOURCE|wikipedia is not a source]], what occurs on a totally different page has no bearing on this one; and (2) Even if it did, the situations are clearly distinguishable. It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because ''it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race.'' The same is not true for Trump. Thus, since the situations are distinguishable and consensus has not adopted it, it's unlikely to be added. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 20:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::::To be clear, it wasn't ''my'' proposal, and the primary argument against the addition seemed to be that it violated MEDRS, not because this BLP needed to be like the Biden BLP. The Biden BLP was only used as an example of how the MEDRS argument didn't seem to hold water. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::::{{tq|&quot;It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race.&quot;}} *::::I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other? *::::Anyway, that content was added BEFORE Biden dropped out. *::::So, there goes that excuse. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::{{tq| I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other?}} We aren't. That's why I explicitly began the point with &quot;Even if it did&quot;. We don't use another page as a source, ''but even if we did,'' the situations are clearly distinguishable for the reasons already outlined throughout the post. The addition doesn't have consensus, so it's not going to be added at this time. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 13:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for the Oaks Town Hall to be used as evidence for concerns about age and health, especially in VOICE. Far from it. I simply disagree that there is any clear violation of MEDRS to include ''something like'' (below) *::::::*Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/22/trump-age-health/ WaPo] *::::::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::Well, that's not really what this thread entitled 'Oaks Town Hall' is about. Perhaps start a new one with your suggested text. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 21:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::Why start yet another thread? Seems like an additional time sink. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 21:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' - sorry, I missed this on the talk page. Now extensive and increasing sourcing on the topic. [[User:Blythwood|Blythwood]] ([[User talk:Blythwood|talk]]) 17:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *:Seems like the Harris campaign and news media have moved from age and health concerns to fascism. Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns? Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 19:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::Seems there was a YouGov poll and pieces in Time magazine and the New Yorker, recently... *::&quot;As the calls grow for Donald Trump to release his medical records, Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris called out her opponent once more during a rally in Houston, Texas, on Friday. She pointed towards the legal battle of Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton and other Texas right wing leaders to access the private medical records of patients who seek out-of-state abortions.&quot; [https://time.com/7099183/donald-trump-medical-records-absent-controversy-presidential-election-2024/ Time 10-27-24] *::&quot;Over half of Americans, 56 percent, said they believe that Trump’s age and health would impact his ability to serve as commander-in-chief at least a little bit, according to another YouGov poll conducted earlier this month. *::Over one-third, 36 percent, said the former president will be “severely” undercut by his age and health. Another one-third, 33 percent, said those factors will not impact the Republican nominee. *::Inversely, 62 percent of Americans said Harris’s health and age will not affect her work in the White House if she is elected president, according to the survey.&quot; [https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4955179-growing-concerns-trump-biden-age/ The Hill 10-26-24] *::&quot;couple of weeks ago, Donald Trump turned in one of his strangest performances in a campaign with no shortage of them—part of a series of oddities that may or may not constitute an October surprise but has certainly made for a surprising October. 'Who the hell wants to hear questions?' he hollered at a town hall in Pennsylvania, after two attendees had suffered medical emergencies. Then he wandered the stage for nearly forty minutes, swaying to music from his playlist—'Ave Maria,' 'Y.M.C.A.,' 'Hallelujah.'&quot; [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/11/04/trumps-health-and-ours The New Yorker 10-27-24] *::&quot;An increasing number of Americans say Donald Trump is too old to be president — but not as many as when President Joe Biden faced similar concerns about his age over the summer. *::A new poll from YouGov found that 44 percent said Trump, at age 78, is too old to lead the executive branch. That figure is up from 35 percent who said the same in a similar February survey.&quot; [https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-age-voters-mental-health-b2636214.html The Independent 10-27-24] *::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::Respectfully, there is no way this is going to get consensus here. If you feel really strongly, maybe start an RfC. That would probably be the most appropriate way to displace the existing RfCs. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 07:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::I was replying to Bob K3416's recent request...&quot;Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns?&quot; *::::Your declarative statement may be a bit out of place in this context, and brings up what appears to be an inconsistency. *::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253835469&amp;oldid=1253814840] As you also stated in your recent removal of cited content that is months old (clarify - irl - not the article itself)... {{tq|&quot;This is still being discussed on the talk page&quot;}} *::::What are the means by which to reconcile {{tq|&quot;this is still being discussed&quot;}}, at the same time as, {{tq|&quot;there is no way this is going to get consensus here&quot;}}? *::::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 08:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::Thanks for your response with the links. *:::::Regarding the rest of your message, the logic isn't clear. Various messages here are evidence that it is still being discussed and the point that you are trying to make with your sentence, &quot;What is the means...&quot; is unclear. For one thing, note that you are comparing an edit summary on the article page with a message on this talk page. Seems like apples and oranges. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 13:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::Darknipples has now edited their comment, although the argument isn't any more compelling imo. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::I was about to add (Btw I corrected my grammar slip) Reverting under the auspices of &quot;it's under discussion&quot;, gives the appearance of contradiction to the recent declaration that &quot;there is no way to achieve consensus&quot; *::::::Granted, I wouldn't completely disagree with Riposte97's removal of some of the context, but the rest seems like it could be DUE. (below) *::::::*Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates.&lt;ref name=&quot;Renewed scrutiny&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Kranish |first=Michael |date=July 22, 2024 |title=Trump's age and health under renewed scrutiny after Biden's exit |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/22/trump-age-health/ |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]] |access-date=13 October 2024 }}&lt;/ref&gt; *::::::A partial revert leaving this portion would seem fine. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::The second sentence wasn't in the given source. The insinuation of being in poor health since becoming a politician is contradicted by the fact that he served 4 years as president without any apparent chronic health problem or physical weakness, and he is currently vigorously campaigning for president. Be careful of age discrimination where healthy people are presumed weak and unhealthy because they are old. If you were elderly, healthy and strong, I don't think you would like people insinuating that you were unhealthy and weak because you were chronologically old. Be well. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 08:04, 30 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::{{tq|&quot;The second sentence wasn't in the given source.&quot;}} *::::::::Good catch, I pulled it from the edit that was reverted so maybe the citation might have been placed further in. *::::::::As far as &quot;insinuating he is in poor health&quot;, that is not what the proposal is about. The proposal was for reports regarding public concern for his age and health, that does not involve speculation or &quot;insinuate&quot; anything specific as to violate MEDRS. *::::::::*&quot;The age of presidential candidates has been a key issue for voters this year. A Washington Post-ABC News-Ipsos poll, conducted before last week’s Republican convention, found that 60 percent of Americans said Trump is too old for another term as president, including 82 percent of Democrats, 65 percent of independents and 29 percent of Republicans.&quot; *::::::::[[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 09:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::His age is already in the article. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 04:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::Water is wet. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Yes'''. There is overwhelming and [[WP:SUSTAINED]] coverage of it at this point; the fact that it is speculative (which some people object to above) doesn't matter, since we do cover speculation when it has sufficient coverage and is clearly relevant to the subject. As [[WP:BLP]] says, {{tq|If an '''allegation''' or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it}}, emphasis mine. For recent coverage, which someone requested above, see eg. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Americans are increasingly concerned about Donald Trump’s age and fitness for office|url=https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/50808-americans-are-increasingly-concerned-about-donald-trumps-age-and-fitness-for-office|website=today.yougov.com}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|first1=Rebecca|last1=Schneid|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=The Controversy Over Trump's Medical Records, Explained|url=https://time.com/7099183/donald-trump-medical-records-absent-controversy-presidential-election-2024/|date=27 October 2024|website=TIME}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|first1=Filip|last1=Timotija|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Many Americans worried about Trump’s age, but less than Biden: Survey|url=https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4955179-growing-concerns-trump-biden-age/|date=26 October 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=A growing number of Americans are concerned with Trump’s age|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-age-voters-mental-health-b2636214.html|date=27 October 2024|website=The Independent}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Trump would be the oldest person to become president. He's not sharing health details|url=https://apnews.com/article/trump-harris-presidential-election-age-health-medical-records-7bb8212c1024748371e43b85e137bae5|date=16 October 2024|website=AP News}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Trump acts erratically. Is this age-related decline?|url=https://www.deccanherald.com/world/trump-acts-erratically-is-this-age-related-decline-3250551|website=Deccan Herald}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|first1=Joanne|last1=Lynn|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=I’m a geriatric physician. Here’s what I think is going on with Trump’s executive function|url=https://www.statnews.com/2024/10/30/trump-cognitive-health-executive-function-biden-aging-president/|date=30 October 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;; for older coverage, there's a massive number of sources on [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]]. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 15:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Yes'''. See [[Public image of Donald Trump#Temperament]]. [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 23:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC) * I think it's time to close this discussion. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 03:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *:What rationale? Stale? Consensus? We need a rationale or we just let things fall off the page naturally. Of course we've just added another 14 days by merely saying this. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *::There is at least consensus to change Consensus item #39 (last modified July 2021) to allow discussion regarding Trump's mental health or fitness for office even without diagnosis. Biden's cognitive health has been in his article since 9/2023: [[Special:Diff/1175184377]] [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 06:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *::Uninvolved close sounds prudent. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *:I was confusing &quot;close with consensus assessment&quot; with &quot;close to get stuff off the page per consensus 13&quot;. Sorry Bob. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} == Another reverted edit == @[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] My edit was not whitewashing. It clarifies the view of the source, that &quot;research suggests Trump's rhetoric ''may have'' caused an increased incidence of hate crimes&quot;: a correlation, while not the opinion of the experts quoted in the source that it necessarily involves causation. As concerns the other edit, the &quot;clunky needless wording&quot; is a necessary detail. As it is now, it sounds like its saying that Trump dictated the letter to some secretary or whatnot, without the doctor present. In reality, he dictated it to the doctor, who told him what he couldn't put in it. [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 22:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 01:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC) ::I disagree with @[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]]’ assertion that your edit is whitewashing, but your edit is written in an argumentative matter. The previous statement states that the Trump comments highlighted were widely criticized, a plain true/false statement. Your “this is despite” implies your addition of text is a rebuttal to the general consensus. It is far from neutral and needs improvement. There should be more discussion on whether Trump’s implied clarification made soon after the comments in question as well. Do NOT edit until there is consensus. Hope this is helpful [[User:Slothwizard|Slothwizard]] ([[User talk:Slothwizard|talk]]) 02:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC) :::You appear to be confusing two reverts. This diff is the revert I'm talking about in this talk page section: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1251380654&amp;oldid=1251370072. The edit to the section about the allegations of white supremacy (which was also reverted) is discussed in [[Talk:Donald_Trump#reverted edit]]. [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 03:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC) ::::My bad. Your addition of Bornstein clarifying what he could not add was grammatically incorrect and unnecessary. Your second edit with adding “may” was not whitewashing; unfortunately the citations are not related to the claim, so I am not sure why that sentence is there in the first place. New sources or remove sentence; unless someone clarifies to me about this section. No editing until more discussion is made, would like to hear more opinions. [[User:Slothwizard|Slothwizard]] ([[User talk:Slothwizard|talk]]) 03:53, 22 October 2024 (UTC) :::::(Do we need to salute and shout &quot;Sir, yes, sir!&quot;?, or am I misreading telegram style?) Assuming that the edits in question are [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1251366835&amp;oldid=1251002499 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1251366835 this] one, reverted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1251370072 here], I agree with the revert. Bornstein: clunky &amp; needless. Trump rhetoric verified by the AP and WaPo cites: &quot;suggests&quot; says that the rhetoric may be the cause. If the sentence had read that &quot;research said that Trump's rhetoric caused ...&quot;, we'd have to say &quot;may have caused&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:00, 22 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::The detail is a necessary detail, citing what I have said above, but improvements to the grammar of the phrase can be made. [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 23:58, 22 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::I assume the repetition of Bornstein's name is what you are referring to when you say &quot;clunky&quot;. If it's the repetition of his name then which of these two do you think work? :::::::&quot;to him while Bornstein said what couldn't be put in it&quot; :::::::&quot;to him while Bornstein informed him what couldn't be put in it&quot; [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 01:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thoughts? [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 16:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::@[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]] @[[User:Slothwizard|Slothwizard]] @[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 19:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::I haven't changed my mind. None of the proposed changes is an improvement. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::Do you have any thoughts on the proposed ways to improve the problems with the proposed edit?[[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 02:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::My thoughts are that this happened a month ago and no one really cares. Your suggested edit did not gain consensus so, drop it and move on. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 03:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC) == fascist in lead == is attributed to ten sources in the body, {{u|Zenomonoz}} [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 05:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :Fascism is an radical extreme nationalist ideology controlled by a dictator, this does not describe Trump or his ideologies, he is a nationalist, populist, and protectionist republican politician, as mentioned in the lead, “fascist” in this case is being used to describe someone you dislike. [[User:Big Mocc|Big Mocc]] ([[User talk:Big Mocc|talk]]) 23:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1252842766 :I’m actually having trouble finding your statement, that some of the people who used to work for him said he's a fascist, in the body. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 05:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::Milley, Mattis and Kelly. I can add those. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 05:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I think [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1252830365 your sentence] is too trivial to constitute a mention in the lead. It wouldn't make sense to include mention of positive characterisation by his former colleagues, either. What am I missing? [[User:Zenomonoz|Zenomonoz]] ([[User talk:Zenomonoz|talk]]) 05:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I contend that (now) 13 references to fascist in the body is not trivial, but rather a very significant matter that is worthy of lead inclusion for a man who seeks the presidency. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 06:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I now added them to the body, so there are now 13 attributions, which I believe is adequate for lead inclusion, and the inclusion is not up top.[https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/10/12/mark-milley-donald-trump-fascist/][https://www.thebulwark.com/p/mattis-told-woodward-he-agreed-trump][https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/22/politics/trump-fascist-john-kelly/index.html] [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 06:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::[[WP:LEAD]] isn't about number of cites. Per current article ''content'' on &quot;fascist&quot;, it clearly fails inclusion in the lead. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 06:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::please would you cite the specific verbiage of LEAD to which you refer? [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 07:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{tq|the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents.}} Mentioned once in a series (described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, fascist) in [[Donald Trump#2024 presidential campaign|2024 presidential campaign]] is not enough IMO; populist and authoritarian are also mentioned in [[Donald Trump#Campaign rhetoric and political positions|Campaign rhetoric and political positions]]. However, it wasn't just historians and scholars, it was also people (&quot;my generals&quot;) who worked for him during his term in office (Defense Secretary Mattis, Chief of Staff Kelly) and Milley, who was handpicked by Trump for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the top military job — hardly the kind of people that can be smeared as &lt;s&gt;far-left&lt;/s&gt; radical-left lunatics. If that is added to the body, then IMO we should add &quot;fascist&quot; to the lead. I haven't read Woodward's book yet, and I still have to go through the numerous sources that were added recently. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :I'm ultimately against the 'fascist' label being included as it's been a subject of contention and debate for 8 years now. The debate is more nuanced than how many citations we can find with the word being included –&amp;nbsp;which is why we should link to [[Trumpism]] where this nuance can be explored in-depth. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 07:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::yes, fascist has been discussed for years, and many have been reluctant and resistant to speak ''the word'', but we now have three senior generals who served him speaking the word, yet the word remains buried in 13 references in the body. I am not persuaded that at this point exclusion from the lead would persist in any other person's BLP under similar circumstances. The sentence does not say he is a fascist, but rather that some historians, scholars and generals have characterized him as such, which is consistent with the body. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 07:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::Isn't Trump the [[de facto]] leader of a [[neo-fascist]] party? The main article on the ideology describes it as including &quot;nativism, xenophobia, and anti-immigration sentiment&quot; [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 07:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::We don't describe the GOP as being a neo-fascist party on Wikipedia. There are far-right elements to the party, for sure, but again that's why we can't extrapolate and say the ''whole'' party is neo-fascist and that Trump is their leader, therefore he is fascist. ::::The topic of whether Trumpism is fascist is still hotly debated, hence why a link to the article where that debate takes place is more appropriate. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 07:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Agreed. I'd also reiterate Czello's point that the lead follows the text of the body. Unless something stated in the body, it should be in the lead. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 08:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::waaay down there, the body says &quot;fascist&quot; with 13 references [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Trumpism would not exist without Trump. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::I'm not sure what argument you're making here. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 08:17, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::I see no cause to deflect to [[Trumpism]] when its source is Trump, so it belongs here [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:24, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Because the Trumpism article is where we can dedicate more space to the nuance of the discussion. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 08:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::I don't see nuance of discussion there and a short conclusive sentence here as mutually exclusive [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::The article is nuanced discussion from beginning to end. It's pretty solely dedicated to exploring the intricacies of the ideoloy and its leanings. The whole point of having splinter articles is so that we can dedicate more space to exploring these topics more fully without overburdening the parent article –&amp;nbsp;and, in this case, an article that is already much too big. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 09:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::I would be disinclined at the moment. If we're counting sources, 10 (or 13?) sources out of about 850 is worth maybe about a third of a sentence? I don't think it would be easy to appropriately contextualise that. Relative to the body, we have short paragraph, not entirely about fascism, mentioning it briefly. I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 08:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::Seems notable according to [[Steven Levitsky]] and the NYT...&quot;never before has a presidential nominee — let alone a former president — openly suggested turning the military on American citizens simply because they oppose his candidacy.&quot; [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/15/us/politics/trump-opponents-enemy-within.html NYT 10-15-2024]. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::So notable I do not see the word &quot;fascist&quot; there. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::DN, Do you believe Trump said that as depicted by that excerpt? [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Bob, SS, I was replying to Alpha's statement - &quot;I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully.&quot; I have not commented on the fascist label as of yet, so please hold your horses. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Bob. I have started a couple talk page sections with sources on authoritarian rhetoric. See [[Talk:Donald Trump#2024 campaign rhetoric &quot;The enemy within&quot;]] &amp; [[Talk:Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Rhetoric Section Fails NPOV]] subsection (&quot;The enemy within&quot; rhetoric). Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 23:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :Two minds this is a BLP, but it is an accusation that is out there, but does this take up a significant part of our article? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::My estimate is that less than 1% of the current article body can be said to address fascism or topics directly adjacent. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 10:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I agree with this analysis. As pointed out by @[[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]], it's the ''content of the article '', not number or variety of sources that determine what's in the lead, and the amount of the article that is actually about fascism or fascist-adjacent is low. I think most people on both sides of the aisle understand that this is primarily just a mudslinging pejorative term used in the course of politics. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 14:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Agreed, and that's precisely why it's UNDUE for the lead. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 12:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :Putting &quot;fascist&quot; in the lead, would be quite problematic. Indeed, attempts to add such a label shortly before the US prez election, doesn't look too good as it's likely to stir up emotions. In other words, the timing stinks. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::Arguments on DUE vs UNDUE aside, I agree that the stability of the article is concerning, and while these issues are separate, they are in no way mutually exclusive. This is the crux of Wikipedia's &quot;Achilles heel&quot; which puts a huge strain on admin and editors alike during elections. IMO though, it is an important discussion that should be held elsewhere, perhaps at the Village Pump. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 23:31, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::Historians and academics should be removed..... just American Media..... zero peer-reviewed academic journals listed as sources. &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold;color:darkblue&quot;&gt;[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]&lt;/span&gt;🍁 23:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::What leads you to believe the two are mutually exclusive? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::I'd usually agree, but with the assertions by the former Chief of Staff being the latest, this may be inching towards an actual, genuine descriptor of his actions and beliefs, rater than just a political pejorative. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 23:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::this is no longer about randos calling people they hate fascists and communists and terrorists and pedophiles and any other perjorative they can imagine. it's about Milley, Mattis and Kelly, top military officers he hired and they served under, in the Oval Office. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 00:55, 25 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Call me a stuffy academic, but I don't believe &quot;top military officer&quot; is a qualification that is of any use (expert opinion) for distinguishing what is fascism and what is merely other forms of far-right authoritarian populism. Leaving weight concerns aside, the attribution required would be entirely too unwieldy in my opinion. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 10:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Well everyone knows people who get fired arent bias. Plus its on msnbc, cnn, and others. It must be true. I really had to see if it is true. I voted for the evil orange man. Versus the hyena. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B]] ([[User talk:2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|talk]]) 03:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::According to [https://www.npr.org/2024/10/29/nx-s1-5164488/harris-trump-fascist-explained NPR],Kamala Harris said it,and Historians are debating [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 21:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{cot|{{small|1=[[WP:NOTFORUM]] and [[WP:NPA]] vios. At least. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)}}}} ::::@[[User:Soibangla|Soibangla]] Ironic that the very fascism taking root in America, expressed by the fascist sympathizers and enablers here (now echoed in Musk’s tantrum in on Twitler, I meant, Twitter…sorry, typo) IS the only reasonable explanation for excluding well-sourced and documented Trump’s fascism in the lead where it is MORE than [[WP:NOTABLE]]. If Trump’s own chief of staff, who was a General no less, says that Trump is the very definition of fascism, then what more do we need? Wikipedia remains broken as MAGA marches on. [[Special:Contributions/2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3|2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3]] ([[User talk:2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3|talk]]) 20:47, 29 October 2024 (UTC) {{cob}} == Trumps felon status should be added to his intro summary == This is literally done for everyone on Wikipedia except for Trump. This is a wilful hiding of information that is favorable to Trump and hides this important information from his google search summary. Please add, convicted felon to his intro to show an unbiased article. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3|2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3|talk]]) 15:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :is it? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :It is in the lead, in the final paragraph. A [[Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_170#RfC_on_use_of_&quot;convicted_felon&quot;_in_first_sentence|recent discussion]] concluded it shouldn't be in the first sentence. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 15:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :no, per [[MOS:CRIMINAL]]. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 10:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :^ [[Special:Contributions/2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881|2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881]] ([[User talk:2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881|talk]]) 08:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::yes it should be added plus president 45 and 47 :) [[Special:Contributions/2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B]] ([[User talk:2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|talk]]) 03:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :Please remove any terms referring to Trump as a &quot;felon&quot; or &quot;convicted felon&quot; from the lede and anywhere else throughout this page. Trump is not a &quot;felon&quot; or even a &quot;convicted felon&quot; until the JUDGE that is actually overseeing the case CONVICTS him and SENTENCES him. THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET. This is how the legal system actually works for those who do not know. :Any publication, news outlet or otherwise, is actually guilty of LIBEL for referring to someone who hasn't been convicted and sentenced BY THE JUDGE as such. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 01:44, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::Incorrect, per Wikipedia content policy. See [[WP:TRUMPRCB]] for elaboration on this point. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:57, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::More specifically, the policy at [[WP:BLPCRIME]] addresses this. It says nothing about ''sentencing''. He has been convicted. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::He has not been convicted. The jury has merely rendered a verdict. The judge can still throw away that verdict. :::Trump is not a convicted felon. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 21:46, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::And please refer to [[WP:SHOUT]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::And even Wikipedia's definition of convict says he has to be sentenced as well: :::&quot;A convict is &quot;a person found guilty of a crime and sentenced by a court&quot; Convict - Wikipedia :::AND sentenced by a court. AND, not OR. Because a jury cannot &quot;convict&quot; only a JUDGE can. If you want to know why Trump won, this is why. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 21:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::[[WP:CIRC|Wikipedia may not be used as a source for itself]]. Please provide reliable sources for your claim that Trump has not been convicted, or refer to [[WP:NOR]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::::This source good? Official Justice dept website :::::https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-609-evidence-conviction [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96|2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96|talk]]) 01:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::No. That source says nothing about Trump. See [[WP:SYNTH]]. Looking for reliable sources that say something like, &quot;Trump has been found guilty but not convicted.&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::&quot;In United States practice, conviction means a finding of guilt (i.e., a jury verdict or finding of fact by the judge) and imposition of sentence.&quot; :::::::That says it all. He is not a convict. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::You're [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/convict confusing the noun with the verb]. A jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts, i.e., he was convicted of a felony. That makes him a felon. The judge hasn't sentenced him yet, therefore he's not a convict, i.e., under sentence for a crime, which is exactly what [[Convict]] says. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 00:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I would be ready with updates for the 'Donald Trump convicted felon' part. Donald Trump's New York hush money case has been called off as the court decides how to move forward. The Trump Manhattan Fraud Case brought forth by Alvin Bragg has been stayed. It is indefinitely 'adjourned' as the Trump legal team moves to outright dismiss the case. More sources will follow this continuing development. [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14101607/donald-trump-hush-money-sentencing-called-off.html Donald Trump's hush money sentencing is called off] Daily Mail. &quot;The case could be delayed until after Trump exits the White House in four years or be dismissed outright.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 13:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::[[WP:DAILYMAIL|The Daily Mail is not a reliable source.]] '''''[[User:LilianaUwU|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:default;color:#246BCE;&quot;&gt;Liliana&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:#FF1493;&quot;&gt;UwU&lt;/span&gt;]]''''' &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:LilianaUwU|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/LilianaUwU|contributions]])&lt;/sup&gt; 13:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Here are USA Today and Bloomberg for more sources. There are many more. [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trumps-nov-26-hush-money-sentencing-in-ny-called-off-without-explanation/ar-AA1umZ9o Trump's Nov. 26 hush money sentencing in NY called off without explanation] Bloomberg. &quot;Whether Justice Juan Merchan decides the hush money case should proceed to sentencing, gets delayed for four years or is simply dismissed outright is an open question hanging over the president-elect.&quot; :::::::[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/11/19/trump-sentencing-hush-money-case-adjourned/76190286007/ Donald Trump's Nov. 26 sentencing in hush money case on hold as prosecution due to weigh in] USA Today. &quot;President-elect Donald Trump's Nov. 26 sentencing date in his New York hush money case is on hold as prosecutors face a Tuesday deadline to advise the judge on how to proceed in light of Trump's election victory.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 14:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::The only thing that might affect &quot;convicted felon&quot; is a successful self-pardon. Per policy, we will look to reliable sources as to whether that means he was never convicted&amp;mdash;our personal reasoning is irrelevant, as are (as I understand it) legal sources that don't specifically talk about Trump. Anyway, we are probably at least six months away from even considering a change, so this is more than a little premature. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I appreciate it. I would imagine the change will occur in under 9 weeks or before January 21th, 2025, possibly sooner. I guess it's a wait and see. Cheers. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 14:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I mean pardons can't erase historical events, just the present definition. If he self pardon it should be noted he self pardoned. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::&quot;A jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts, i.e., he was convicted of a felony.&quot; :::::Juries do not convict. Only a judge can do that. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == Adding links to the lead == I am seeking a consensus to add these links to the lead: #populist, protectionist, and nationalist --&gt; [[populist]], [[protectionist]] and [[nationalist]] #*These are specific enough terms that the average Jane probably isn't going to know a lot about. #*I have wanted to click on these before and couldn't. Why not just link them? #building a wall --&gt; [[Trump wall|building a wall]] #*This was a major part of Trump's 2016 rhetoric. #*There is an article on it. #initiated a trade war --&gt; [[China-United States trade war|initiated a trade war]] #*It's a specific and very important moment in his presidency. #*There is an article on it. What do y'all think? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 20:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC) :Blanket-'''oppose''' new links in the lead, per my opposition to steering readers from the lead to other articles, bypassing the related body content. [[User:Mandruss/sandbox|Lead-to-body links]] are a potential major improvement over no links in the lead, but that effort has stalled. That said, [[China-United States trade war|a trade war with China]], not [[China-United States trade war|initiated a trade war]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Support''', as these are useful and relevant links to the average reader which don't make the lead too bloated and provide value for those who want to read more about it. I'd also suggest linking &quot;[[Political positions of Donald Trump|his political positions]]&quot;. If we'd want to take a more restrictive approach to keep the lead clean, we could leave the links to &quot;populist, protectionist, and nationalist&quot; out, as these are links to general articles not directly related to Trump or his actions. However, the argument that we should try to avoid &quot;steering readers from the lead to other articles&quot; seems rather patronizing and not very rational to me. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 21:44, 26 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Support''' - helps the reader further understand the topic of the article per [[MOS:BUILD]]. The mentioned links are all important concepts for the article which the general reader will not be familiar with. --[[User:Guest2625|Guest2625]] ([[User talk:Guest2625|talk]]) 02:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose''' - We've enough links in the lead. Keep adding more &amp; we'll end up with a [[WP:SEAOFBLUE]] situation. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 02:47, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::This isn't a good argument, either logically or based on precedent. For starters, &quot;we've enough&quot; isn't argument, just a statement that means nothing without reasoning to back it up. Why do you believe we already have enough? ::And do you truly think the [[slippery slope fallacy|slope is that slippery]]? On ''this'' page? What is being proposed will not create any SEAOFBLUE issues, and this page will likely never contain any SEAOFBLUE issues in the lead for any lengthy period of time. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 03:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::On ''this'' page? Oh yes, the slope can be that slippery. PS - I still oppose your proposal. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:21, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose'''. See consensus 60, which, incidentally, resulted from the RfC in which you proposed ten other links. Seems to me that we've been heading down the slippery slope ever since because we already have several Wikilinks that violate the consensus (i.e., items that were in the lead at the time of the RfC, e.g., &quot;many false and misleading statements&quot; and others). And, obviously, items that were added later (e.g. felony convictions). {{tq|Helps the reader further understand the topic of the article per [[MOS:BUILD]]}} — reading the article and not just the lead would help. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:25, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::All you do is essentially referring to an old RfC and arguing that adding more links would violate the consensus reached back then, which is not an argument in itself. We gave valid arguments for why we think that adding further links would be an improvement. Like I already wrote, I think trying to force users to read the article by deliberately not adding links is quite patronizing and not very rational. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 14:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::Yeah, well, that &quot;old RfC&quot; is part of the current consensus, whether you consider it &quot;patronizing and irrational&quot; or not. [[WP:LEAD]] says {{tq|The lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents}}, not a collection of links to other pages. Nobody is forcing anybody to read anything on WP. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I know that this is the current consensus, and Cessaune and I are challenging it, arguing that adding the proposed links would be an improvement. So far, there has not been a single argument against including the proposed links; simply noting that adding further links would violate the current consensus is a mere observation, and citing this as a reason against the proposal is circular reasoning. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 15:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::1) I would tend to disagree that the RfC precluded the addition of new links. But let's assume it does. People such as yourself should've been jumping over themselves to revert. If people didn't/don't care to, then it couldn't have been all that important, or—my preferred theory—editors recognize the utility and don't see a problem with it. If, according to you, the outcome of the RfC has been effectively ignored by a lot of different people (including YOU, the author of a tenth of the text on this page and a quarter of the edits—someone who must've been very aware of this) that means... what exactly? Help me out here, because I'm genuinely confused. ::::2) If the consensus suggests that we are only allowed to add those links, I'm challenging the consensus directly here. So the outcome of the RfC is irrelevant. ::::3) Do you have an actual argument against adding the links? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 17:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::As to process, we have usually required ''significant new argument(s) or a significant change in the external situation'' to revisit an existing consensus. Otherwise, it's a simple roll of the dice that depends on who happens to show up; we could reverse the existing consensus only to have it restored in a few months after a change in the editor mix, back and forth indefinitely (make that make sense). Otherwise, it's a settled issue and time-limited volunteers have better ways to contribute than putting the same ingredients through the same machinery to see if we get a different product. It is not constructive to allow repeated bites at the same apple, and consensuses don't require periodic &quot;refresh&quot;. Unless you meet one of those criteria for revisitation, you and Cessaune challenging the existing consensus is no different from you and Cessaune having opposed it and ended up on the losing side. Do you meet either of them? (In this case, there doesn't appear to be any &quot;external situation&quot; [external to Wikipedia] that could change, significantly or otherwise. So that leaves significant new argument(s).){{pb}}By the by, the above reasoning is supported at [[WP:CCC]] (policy) in language about as strong as language ever gets in Wikipedia PAGs outside of [[WP:BLP]]: &quot;Editors may propose a change to current consensus, ''especially to raise previously unconsidered arguments or circumstances''.&quot; My emphasis. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:13, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I would say that the Abraham Accords RfC is where I stopped agreeing with this kind of philosophy. There were random, relatively frequent discussions all the time as to whether the Abraham Accords were DUE in the article, and all of them ended in 'consensus against' for literal YEARS. Until one of them didn't. I was very certain that an RfC wasn't warranted, and when one happened, I was somewhat certain that the outcome was going to come out as no consensus or consensus against. Yet here we are. This is a very similar situation. ::::What if I were to suggest that the want to lead readers to information trumps the want to steer readers to the body? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::::{{tq|Until one of them didn't.}} Did that one consider significant new arguments? I don't know much about the situation; had there been a significant change in the external situation that increased the DUEness? If either is true, that revisitation was warranted under this &quot;philosophy&quot;. If neither is true, the consensus change was solely due to a change in editor mix, which is precisely what we seek to avoid.{{pb}}What if somebody comes along who disagrees with the current Abraham Accords consensus? Would you support yet another revisitation, actively countering &quot;AGAIN??&quot; complaints, or do you assert &quot;settled issue&quot; when the current consensus is to your liking? Logically, those are the only two options if you reject this &quot;philosophy&quot;.{{pb}}{{tq|What if I were to suggest that the want to lead readers to information trumps the want to steer readers to the body?}} I was hoping to avoid this. If you were to suggest that to me, I would respond that you should pick up [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mandruss/sandbox&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1219737664 the ball you dropped in April] and get us moving on lead-to-body links again. They would serve both goals, leading readers to information while steering them to the body, and are the ultimate solution to this perennial problem.{{pb}}All of your three proposed items should be supported in this article's body&amp;mdash;else it's a bright red flag that the lead does not properly summarize the body&amp;mdash;so lead-to-body links could be used for those items. The link might need to be structured differently in some cases; for example [[User:Mandruss/sandbox|the current sandboxing]] includes: &quot;During the campaign, his political positions [[Donald Trump#Campaign rhetoric and political positions|were described]] as populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist.&quot; If we think links to [[Populist]], [[Protectionist]], and [[Nationalist]] are warranted, they could and should be provided inline in the body prose.{{pb}}Thus, lead-to-body links would both encourage and facilitate what are already widely-supported best practices.{{pb}}Too often forgotten or dismissed: The level of detail in this article's body will meet the needs and desires of many readers, who are not served by facilitating, even encouraging them to bypass our body. Steer readers to the body first, then let them decide whether to drill deeper. Some will and others won't, and everybody will be well-served and happy.{{pb}}Even if they choose not to read the body content, it's usually only one more click to reach the relevant other article. That effort may be compared to the effort of searching this massive table of contents for the body content elaborating on (and supporting) something you read in the lead. You think that's easy? Pretend you're new to the article and its ToC, forget everything you know about them, and try it for a few cases (no cherry picking). I think you'll find it's much harder than clicking a link in a hatnote at the top of a section you were just directed to. This equation may be different in shorter articles, which is why lead-to-body links should be nothing more than a local option; but they are ''sorely'' needed at at least one article&amp;mdash;this one&amp;mdash;and very likely others.{{pb}}We offer a hierarchy of detail&amp;mdash;lead→body→other articles&amp;mdash;and lead-to-body links merely make it as accessible as possible&amp;mdash;all of it, not just the first, third, and subsequent levels of detail. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::1) I actually tried to resume working on lead-to-body links, but I kept getting shut down by more experienced template editors and I still don't know how to solve the issue of switching text colors from white to black depending on the user's chosen theme. ::::::2) If lead-to-body links aren't an option, then what? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 03:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::1a) &quot;Shut down&quot; how and on what basis? 1b) Doesn't sound insurmountable to me.{{pb}}2) Premature question. As far as I'm concerned, they're an option until our best shot fails. We can cross that bridge if and when we come to it. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I'll ask again to see if anyone knows how to solve the theme issue. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 04:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{ping|Cessaune}} I suggest vagueness, leaving the reason for asking out of it if at all possible. Regrettably, many editors will find reasons why &quot;it can't be done&quot; (or will merely be less helpful than they could be) if they oppose the underlying goal/proposal. And this is not an issue to be resolved in template space, [[WP:VPT]], etc. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Also, for the record, I'd be willing to suggest that pushing this is functionally the same as pushing for more links in the lead, considering that efforts of this sort have been shut down before... [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 16:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::In my view, what we're proposing now is significantly superior to what has been shut down before (that's a whole other discussion). We've had more experience articulating the argument, so we do it better now. We've seen some of the major opposition arguments, so we can counter them before they're made. And it's had time to attract a larger support base, including Khajidha below. So I wouldn't let the past predict the future in this case. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;functionally the same&quot;. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose''' any and all links in lead. Full stop. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 12:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::Clarification, &quot;links&quot; here refers to links to other articles. I still think the experiment we had with links to the relevant sections of this article was a good idea. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 12:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::Do you have a justification for this? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 16:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose ''' [[Special:Contributions/132.147.140.229|132.147.140.229]] ([[User talk:132.147.140.229|talk]]) 16:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Support'''. This is what wikilinks are for. Arguments that adding links to the lead cause the article to be underdeveloped are quite unconvincing. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 16:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::'''Oppose''',we have a policy on this,Citations not needed in the lead [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 18:51, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::A citation and a link are completely different things. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 19:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::'''Neutral''' ,then,in that case [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 21:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == something feels missing on lead == By reading the lead, this is an exceptionally different read than other politican pages on wikipedia. It is almost exclusivelly composed of criticism. It feels extremelly strange that there is almost no direct analysis of how Trump won the US election. This is the only phrase that refers to it: &quot;During the campaign, his political positions were described as populist, protectionist, and nationalist.&quot; It feels so underdeveloped, indirect, as if it was avoiding the topic entirelly. Am I the only one feeling that this is an issue? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 10:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :No as the lede is a summery, the body is for more detailed reading into the subject. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:31, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :There are dozens if not hundreds of Wikipedia articles about Trump. His single-page, top-level biography is not the place to fully address things like {{tq|direct analysis of how Trump won the US election.}} Interested readers need to drill a little deeper than this article&amp;mdash;a task made very easy by the in-context links found in the article.{{pb}}As for {{tq|almost exclusivelly composed of criticism}}, read [[Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias]]. Since your comment has a little specificity, I'm opting not to close this thread per [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 61. Other editors are free to disagree, as always. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::Nothing against the criticism. Also I am asking, not even touched the edit button, so it would be kind of aggressive to shut the topic down immediatelly. ::I am not talking about fully adress, with &quot;direct analysis&quot; I still meant a summarization, same as it is done with criticism. ::I've read the link you are providing. It states &quot;Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires us to report the bad (negative) with the good (positive), and the '''neither-bad-nor-good''', '''in rough proportion''' to what's said in reliable sources, which in this case are '''largely major news outlets'''.&quot; ::I just remember that Trump victory was not an easy prediction, that it was very notable and widely analised by major news outlet. Just that. This is the main reason why the lead sounds weird to me. Like I said there is that phrase that at least refers to why he could have won, but it is very much indirect. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::Ok, but this can't go anywhere unless you propose specific change(s), supported by reliable sources. It's fairly uncommon for someone else to take up your banner just because you brought up the topic. If you ask, &quot;Who supports me on this?&quot;, the common response will be &quot;I don't know, that depends on the specifics. I don't support or oppose vague generalities.&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Sorry for the late reply. I couldn't edit in the past week. ::::I think it is a reasonable path to ask for other editors opinions before having a fully formed one myself to propose an edit. ::::I don't know what the best formulation would be to add a phrase about why and how Trump won his first election. But, like I said, I feel that it is a crucial piece of info currently missing. This feeling is supported by reading reliable sources at the time obviously. The fact that Trump won was arguably the most notable event of his life, full of social insights. ::::Also note, and that's what I found strange, that there is (as it should) a whole paragraph about that election already. Russian interference is noted, him losing the popular vote is noted, protests are noted, his campaign tone is noted yet... No direct mention or why/how he won. ::::Again, how do you, and other editors, feel about this? I am not asking anybody to take my banner, feel free to disagree. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The Electoral College. He won because of the Electoral College. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 14:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::@[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] thank you for coming to the discussion. That is already presented on the paragraph! It is clearly written that he lost the popular vote. ::::::Don't you think that one phrase with analysis of why he won could be helpful? Note that the lead for [[2016 United States presidential election]] is attempting to do something like that, with poor results in my opinion. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::No. The mechanics of the win is relevant to the election article and the article about his presidency, but not really to this article. Especially not to the lead. This is the article about Trump (the person), the fact that he won the 2016 election is the important part for the intro here. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 14:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Fair enough, is should be more developed on those two pages' leads. ::::::::But there already are broader social informations on the election paragraph in this lead. It mentions that Russia interfered to favor Trump, despite not being an action of Trump (the person), and the subsequent protests. How is a single phrase that directly refers to why he won less relevant than those two elements? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 15:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Just to further develop the very strange approach of this lead I want to point out how the very high quality lead of [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]] reads out. I am obviously choosing this lead NOT as a comparison of Hitler and Trump, but to showcase how even for an highly negative biography's lead there should always be room for social analysis. :::::::::{{tq|He was decorated during his service in the German Army in World War I, receiving the Iron Cross. In 1919, he joined the German Workers' Party (DAP), the precursor of the Nazi Party, and in 1921 was appointed leader of the Nazi Party.}} :::::::::This helps readers understand his rise to power. You could argue Trump's lead does the same, but I don't think it does. The references to his business empire don't connect at all to his political activities. :::::::::{{tq|After his early release in 1924, Hitler gained popular support by attacking the Treaty of Versailles and promoting pan-Germanism, antisemitism, and anti-communism with charismatic oratory and Nazi propaganda.}} :::::::::This directly connects his policies and style to popular support. :::::::::{{tq|Domestically, Hitler implemented numerous racist policies and sought to deport or kill German Jews. His first six years in power resulted in rapid economic recovery from the Great Depression, the abrogation of restrictions imposed on Germany after World War I, and the annexation of territories inhabited by millions of ethnic Germans, which initially gave him significant popular support.}} :::::::::This again connects his most negative actions to a complex set of economic and social relationships. :::::::::It would be very naive to frame lead writing as positive vs negative. The Trump's lead is currently avoiding any high quality summarization, shielding itself behind a fact checked style. I understand the difficulty of improving it, since this is a BLP and it will be challenged down to the comma. Still, the issue is there. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 16:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::@[[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]],Agreed,Wikipedia has to not take sides [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 18:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::this isn't that much about sides, criticism on lead are a good thing (per MOS) and are actually a big improvement on other politician pages. The issue is not having context (also required by MOS lead) to make sense of the info, even for the most notable facts as winning the election. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == Replacing the caption of Trump's 1964 yearbook picture == I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253907319&amp;oldid=1253846000 changed the caption] from &quot;Trump at &lt;s&gt;the&lt;/s&gt; [[New York Military Academy]], 1964&quot; to read &quot;Trump 1964 yearbook picture with medals borrowed from a classmate&quot;, with cite, and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1253907319 reverted] with the editsum &quot;Unnecessary and conveys less information&quot;. (I've since corrected the caption; New York Military Academy is a name like Whittier High School.) My proposed caption needs to be corrected, too: &quot;Trump's 1964 yearbook picture with medals borrowed from a classmate&quot;. It conveys more information than the current one which doesn't say that it's a yearbook picture; the name of the school is unnecessary since you can read it in [[Donald Trump#Early life|Early life]]. Borrowed medals: if Trump had been a member of the military, that would have been called &quot;stolen valor&quot;. {{cot|Buettner/Craig text}} If Donald resented taking orders from a contemporary like Witek, he still craved the tokens of status conferred by the system. Like most cadets, he had earned a few medals for good conduct and being neat and orderly. But his friend, Michael Scadron, had a full dozen by their senior year. On the day yearbook portraits were being taken, Donald showed up in Scadron’s barracks room and asked to borrow his dress jacket with the medals attached, Scandron told us. Donald wore those medals for the portrait, perplexing some of his fellow cadets. “He’s wearing my medals on his uniform,” Scadron later recalled. “I didn’t care one way or the other.” {{cob}} Vanity Fair [https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/donald-trump-status-military-academy published a longer excerpt]. It's the earliest example we have for Trump lying about his accomplishments/successes, illusion rather than reality. IMO that's less trivial than the yearbook picture itself. Opinions? [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :Either remove the picture or make it clear these are not his medals. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC) ::The detail about the medals (as reprehensible as it is) is not something that belongs in the caption. The whole affair should be covered in the article text.--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 22:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :::Agreed. Better covered in prose, subject to DUE as always. I'm not convinced it clears the bar, but that's really a separate issue that could be handled separately for the sake of organization. I'm confident you don't need to be informed that {{tq|as reprehensible as it is}} is irrelevant for our purposes; moral judgments are never a factor. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Yep, I was just trying to make it plain that I am not trying to hide unflattering facts.--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 00:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::::We should never need to explain ourselves like that, in my book. It's essentially apologizing for being a good editor. If someone suspects you of {{tq|trying to hide unflattering facts}}, that's on them. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:05, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::How about the caption &quot;Trump's 1964 yearbook picture&quot;? I don't think the name of the boarding school is more important than the fact that it's a yearbook picture. And for the uninitiated it sounds as though Trump was a cadet at an actual [[United States service academies|military academy]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::::{{tq|I don't think the name of the boarding school is more important than the fact that it's a yearbook picture.}} Omit the almost-obvious. Sure, he could've had the portrait made just so he could carry it in his wallet and gaze upon it from time to time, but that's not going to be a reader's first guess. {{tq|And for the uninitiated it sounds as though Trump was a cadet at an actual military academy.}} The adjacent prose says NYMA is &quot;a private boarding school&quot;. We're not catering to readers who just look at the pretty pictures and read their captions. And the only &quot;1964&quot; currently in the prose is about entering Fordham. So your proposal would be confusing, requiring readers to know that Fordham students don't wear uniforms. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Violation of [[WP:NPOV]], and not relevant to what is being discussed. [[User:Eg224|Eg224]] ([[User talk:Eg224|talk]]) 19:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ===Wording of sentence on Trump attending New York Military Academy=== :@[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] you appear to have violated the contentious topics procedure by reverting the restoration of longstanding content. Please self-revert immediately. :I note that the New York Military Academy uses a definite article when referring to itself. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 21:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC) ::It seems you have invented a designation that appears nowhere in [[WP:CTOP]], and even if it did, it would not apply to simple grammatical tweaks. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :::It's a 1RR violation. The content is clearly disputed, so it should be dealt with on the talk page. Again, please self revert while we discuss it here. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 23:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC) ::::One revert is not a 1RR violation. Please do not bandy about terms which you appear to be unfamiliar with. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:51, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Take it to AN. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:51, 31 October 2024 (UTC) I've now reverted the text to the longstanding version which wasn't the one I edited yesterday — another editor edited part of the sentence on October 16, so IMO 1RR wouldn't apply. The wording of the sentence is a separate issue from the caption. As for the school using the definite article when referring to itself, they do and they don't. (And does it matter? See Trump University.) Here are three examples for the school referring to itself and another private school the correct way: &quot;At NYMA, we’re dedicated to preparing you for the future&quot;; &quot;At NYMA, our partnership with Canterbury Brook Academy (CBA) significantly enriches students’ holistic development&quot;; &quot;The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;. And an example of the incorrect way: &quot;The mission of the New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;. (Not a typo, same sentence, once with &quot;the&quot; and once without.) &lt;small&gt; Names of colleges, universities, and other schools. Use &quot;the&quot; if the school’s title includes &quot;of&quot; or &quot;for&quot; (University of Maryland, Perkins School for the Blind). Don't use &quot;the&quot; if the school is named for a person or place (Baylor University, Harvard University).&lt;/small&gt; *Longstanding content: At age 13, he entered the [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school. *Proposed wording: At age 13, his father sent him to [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school. Reason: Trump didn't enter of his own volition, his parents entered him at NYMA. Kranish/Fisher: &quot;Near the end of seventh grade, Fred discovered Donald’s knives and was infuriated to learn about his trips into the city. He decided his son’s behavior warranted a radical change. In the months before eighth grade, Fred Trump enrolled Donald at the New York Military Academy, a boarding school 70 miles from Jamaica Estates.&quot; Gwenda Blair: &quot;In 1959, when he was thirteen, Donald Trump went off to New York Military Academy (NYMA) ... an institution that in the fall of 1959 resembled a child's toy soldier set&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :Re the &quot;the&quot;, can we agree that site-wide consistency as to the NYMA case is a worthy goal? If so, we need a single venue to discuss and decide the issue, which can then be easily found and referenced by editors of &lt;del&gt;other&lt;/del&gt; articles containing references to NYMA. I would suggest the NYMA article, which currently omits the &quot;the&quot;. In other words, any discussion of guidelines and other factors should occur there, not here. The discussion here should be: &quot;The NYMA article omits the 'the'. End.&quot;{{pb}}This is one of the very few situations where a different article should influence this one. Can I articulate the difference? Probably not. But it would be hard to assert &quot;other stuff exists&quot; about this; the &quot;the&quot; should be universally present or universally omitted for NYMA. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Edited 23:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::Although this is a minor point, the school itself uses 'the' when referring to itself using its full name, but omits the 'the' when using the acronym NYMA. Sources &gt; Wikipedia imo. See: https://www.nyma.org [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 23:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::{{tq|any discussion of guidelines and other factors should occur there, not here.}} Anyway, this article does not currently use the NYMA acronym. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::Not true. The school also doesn't use &quot;the&quot; when referring to itself by the full name, e.g., [https://www.nyma.org/ NYMA website], &quot;Leadership training&quot; section: &quot;The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop our cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;; [https://www.nyma.org/about/ NYMA website/about]: &quot;New York Military Academy (NYMA) was founded by Colonel Charles Jefferson Wright&quot;, &quot;The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Would anyone really expect a 13-year-old to have entered any school of their own volition? My opinion was neither sought nor desired when it came time for me to begin high school. I just can't see anyone interpreting the longstanding version the way you are worried about. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 16:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::The classmate he borrowed the medals from did, according to Buettner/Craig. I did, too, come to think of it (at 15, and not military school, though:). [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::Are you extrapolating overall reader behavior from a sample size of 2? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Yes! I'm considering a career change — Rasmussen pollster. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Where is the DUE case for &quot;his father sent him to&quot;? How much RS has discussed this issue? Key word: ''discussed,'' which does not mean merely saying that his father sent him. To the author of the source, that could be an arbitrary alternative to &quot;he entered&quot;, a matter of writing style. Beware of [[WP:OR]] and avoid reading between the lines in sources.{{pb}}I don't think two or three good sources would do it for me. Even ignoring the article bloat. Maybe four good sources. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::How about removing kindergarten and just mentioning that he attended school X through grade 7 and school Y from grade 8 to 12? Current version: :::{{tq2|He grew up with older siblings [[Maryanne Trump Barry|Maryanne]], [[Fred Trump Jr.|Fred Jr.]], and Elizabeth and younger brother [[Robert Trump|Robert]] in the [[Jamaica Estates, Queens|Jamaica Estates]] neighborhood of Queens, and attended the private [[Kew-Forest School]] from kindergarten through seventh grade.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA33 33]}}&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Schwartzman|first1=Paul|last2=Miller|first2=Michael E.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html|title=Confident. Incorrigible. Bully: Little Donny was a lot like candidate Donald Trump|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 22, 2016|access-date=June 2, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/us/politics/donald-trumps-old-queens-neighborhood-now-a-melting-pot-was-seen-as-a-cloister.html|title=Donald Trump's Old Queens Neighborhood Contrasts With the Diverse Area Around It|first=Jason|last=Horowitz|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=September 22, 2015|access-date=November 7, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; At age 13, he entered the [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA38 38]}}}} ::Proposed version: :::{{tq2|He grew up with older siblings [[Maryanne Trump Barry|Maryanne]], [[Fred Trump Jr.|Fred Jr.]], and Elizabeth and younger brother [[Robert Trump|Robert]] in the [[Jamaica Estates, Queens|Jamaica Estates]] neighborhood of Queens.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/us/politics/donald-trumps-old-queens-neighborhood-now-a-melting-pot-was-seen-as-a-cloister.html|title=Donald Trump's Old Queens Neighborhood Contrasts With the Diverse Area Around It|first=Jason|last=Horowitz|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=September 22, 2015|access-date=November 7, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; He attended the private [[Kew-Forest School]] through seventh grade{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA33 33]}}&lt;ref name=&quot;bully&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Schwartzman|first1=Paul|last2=Miller|first2=Michael E.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html|title=Confident. Incorrigible. Bully: Little Donny was a lot like candidate Donald Trump|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 22, 2016|access-date=June 2, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; and [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school, from eighth through twelfth grade.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA38 38]}}&lt;ref name=&quot;bully&quot;/&gt;}} ::This may be my bias talking, but &quot;entered the New York Military Academy&quot; has just a whiff of achievement, such as being admitted to [[United States Military Academy|West Point]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::I can't detect any such sense of achievement. Entering a school seems to me to be completely equvalent to &quot;began attending&quot;. I also don't see it as distinguishing the manner of entry (personal choice, parental choice, or simply iving in the district).--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 16:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::Sorry, but [[WP:NOR|your interpretation is irrelevant here]], {{tq|bias talking}} or otherwise. You are going beyond &quot;editorial judgment&quot; in my opinion. Show me the requested DUE case if you want my support. At this moment, I'd be happy with merely removing the &quot;the&quot; per above. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::For at least seven years, the sentence read (bolding added by me): {{tq|'''At age 13, he was enrolled''' at the New York Military Academy, a private boarding school,[6] and in 1964, '''he enrolled''' at Fordham University.}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1213766421 This edit] on March 15, 2024, changed it with the editsum &quot;ce&quot;. IMO, it changed the meaning. I didn’t notice it among all the other edits at the time. I only noticed it now because I’m reading Buettner/Craig’s &quot;Lucky Loser&quot;. OR? Sure, if reading RS and forming an opinion is the definition of OR. It’s a tad annoying when every source I found says &quot;he was sent&quot; or similar wording, and there doesn’t seem to be a single source for &quot;he entered&quot; (annoying enough for me to take my mind off next Tuesday and spend half an hour tracking the sentence on the Wayback Machine{{Oldsmiley|roll}}). ::::*[https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html Kranish/Fisher]: &quot;When Donald was 13, his father abruptly sent him to a military boarding school, where instructors struck him if he misbehaved and the requirements included daily inspections and strict curfews. 'He was essentially banished from the family home,' said his biographer, Michael D’Antonio.&quot; ::::*Buettner/Craig, pg. 63: &quot;But Fred had reached his limit with Donald. He sent him to a boarding school, a military academy north of the city.&quot; ::::*[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/classroom/daily-news-lessons/2016/07/donald-trumps-early-years-from-trouble-making-teen-to-military-school-star PBD]: &quot;His family eventually sent him to military school in upstate New York&quot;. ::::*[https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/09/us/politics/donald-trump-likens-his-schooling-to-military-service-in-book.html NYT]: &quot;Mr. Trump said his experience at the New York Military Academy, an expensive prep school where his parents had sent him to correct poor behavior, gave him 'more training militarily than a lot of the guys that go into the military'.&quot; ::::*[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/grab-that-record-how-trumps-high-school-transcript-was-hidden/2019/03/05/8815b7b8-3c61-11e9-aaae-69364b2ed137_story.html WaPo]: &quot;Trump spent five years at the military academy, starting in the fall of 1959, after his father — having concluded that his son, then in the seventh grade, needed a more discipline-focused setting — removed him from his Queens private school and sent him Upstate to NYMA.&quot; [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{tq|OR? Sure, if reading RS and forming an opinion is the definition of OR.}} 'Twas OR ''before'' you presented this DUE case. Now it isn't. [[In-joke|I must be from Missouri]]. Ok, you have my support for &quot;his father sent him to&quot;. And remove that damned &quot;the&quot; in the prose, per above, pending a change at [[New York Military Academy]]. Please and thank you. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC) Making sure this isn't archived — someone started another discussion (Inclusion of release of grades). [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:02, 11 November 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} == Please re-write the entire first section. == I have read more than 10,000 biographical articles in Wikipedia, and I haven't seen a single article which is written in a more biased, and pessimistic tone than [[Donald Trump]]. Please be professional and at least re-write the entire first section again in a more neutral tone. The entire world is reading this article and it must be written professionally. Thank you. [[User:Nir007H|Nir007H]] ([[User talk:Nir007H|talk]]) 10:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I agree. Its important to mention these things, but the bias on both this page and the election page as well as his campaign page, is widespread. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 10:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :How? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::Because all of them have paragraphs upon paragraphs regarding many '''allegations''', many of which Trump himself has denied. They also excessively refer him to [[Fascism]], and provide far-left and often non-reliable sources for these. Kamala Harris and Joe Biden have their fair bit of criticism, but this is rarely mentioned on their pages and when it is, its usually reverted or downplayed due to 'non reliable sourcing'. Keeping in mind Fox and the like should be considered as reliable as CNN and the like. Its overall quite biased. Dont get me wrong, these things need to be mentioned, but their absolutely has to be more weighting as to criticism of Trump and his Democrat opponents. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 10:28, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::Also to quickly add to this, it needs to be mentioned more that '''Trump has denied [[Project 2025]]'''. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 10:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::See [[WP:MANDY]]. The sources are what we go with, not Trump's own claims. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 10:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Left sources that go against what the topic at hand himself said? Wikipedia can be interesting sometimes. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 11:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Again, [[WP:MANDY]] and [[WP:PRIMARY]] are why we prioritise independent sources. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 13:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Completely agree with these criticisms of the article. Please see my added topic which includes three edit requests, for some proposed changes to the opening section. [[User:Neutral Editor 645|Neutral Editor 645]] ([[User talk:Neutral Editor 645|talk]]) 10:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I think that based on current consensus number 61, that you should review this link: [[Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias]]. (Not 100% sure though, so I will leave this thread open.) --[[User:Super Goku V|Super Goku V]] ([[User talk:Super Goku V|talk]]) 10:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Yeah. I hate Trump and am sad that he won, but this lead is just too much. It discredits Wikipedia's encyclopedic tone for the regular user. At least add a few positive things. [[User:Lucafrehley|Lucafrehley]] ([[User talk:Lucafrehley|talk]]) 10:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::Find some. We can't include things that don't exist.--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 11:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::Jesus you are literally a wikipedia editor. Your bias is what we do not need on wikipedia. :::For example we could add things like: :::The First Step Act, signed in 2018, aimed to reform the federal prison system by reducing sentences for non-violent offenders, increasing funding for rehabilitation programs, and reducing the three-strike rule’s penalty. :::the VA MISSION Act, allowing veterans more access to private healthcare and aimed at improving the VA's efficiency and accountability. :::Operation Warp Speed facilitated the rapid development, manufacturing, and distribution of COVID-19 vaccines, which reached the public in record time. :::just to name a few [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 11:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::As I pointed out in my own topic, this is not about adding &quot;positive things&quot;. Trump won an election in 2016 which was widely reported from reliable sources as a complete surprise. Those reliable sources tried to understand why people voted for him. The lead has no direct mention of why he won. While having mention of Russian interference and protests. :::This has nothing to do with things being positive or negative, there is a lack of social analysis that doesn't help to present a complex BLP. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 15:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I agree. I have never seen an article of this scale be so obviously biased and favored against its subject. This bias becomes even more distinguishable when you compare it to other articles such as [[Joe Biden]], who has been heavily criticized even by people on the left. For example, he faced a ton of criticism for the [[2020–2021 U.S. troop withdrawal from Afghanistan|withdrawal from Afganistan]] ([https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/afghanistan-joe-biden-donald-trump-kabul-politics/index.html CNN], [https://www.msnbc.com/the-week/watch/pres-biden-faces-criticism-for-afghanistan-withdrawal-119203397970 MSNBC], [https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/biden-s-afghanistan-withdrawal-speech-missed-something-important-n1276918 MSNBC again], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/afghanistan-withdrawal-republicans-house-report-biden-white-house/ CBS], [https://www.npr.org/2024/09/08/nx-s1-5105345/afghanistan-withdrawal-congress-report-trump-biden-harris, NPR], [https://apnews.com/article/house-republicans-afghanistan-withdrawal-kabul-abbey-gate-cdf9578d3fef6201ee44fafb5f5d5acd Associative Press], [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/us/politics/afghanistan-withdrawal-congress.html NYT], etc), yet that is nowhere to be found in the lead. Meanwhile, Trump's lead section will mention every bad thing he did, as well as the opinions of his non-supporters. The opinions of those who support him are not even mentioned. It just comes across as completely lacking integrity. ([[User talk:Not0nshoree|Discuss]] [[User:Not0nshoree|'''''0nshore's''''']] [[Special:contributions/Not0nshoree|contributions!!!]]) 17:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::I would not define it as &quot;biased&quot;, those info could be considered notable. But it is surelly tone deaf in trying to give social context to Trump success. Poor writing that actually doesn't even give a change to complex social criticism, for which there are many reliable reportings even from the same major US newspapers used in the current &quot;fact checked&quot; style. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 18:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Nobody rewrites entire first sections (leads). That isn't how Wikipedia works, and Trump would be dead long before we reached a consensus on such a rewrite. See [[Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::yea, I agree on that, a substantial rewrite is not happening soon. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 18:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :This entire article needs re-written, but the introduction is a total disaster. Even aside from the partisan hackery, it is a hodgepodge of incoherent sentences that look like (and probably were) added disjointedly as time went on with little to no continuity with each other. Most of them are factoids that are irrelevant to a high altitude summary of the man's life and achievements. Embarrassing. [[User:The Pittsburgher|The Pittsburgher]] ([[User talk:The Pittsburgher|talk]]) 15:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :Specific suggestions, please. It's nigh impossible to rewrite an entire lead section to everyone's liking. Simple saying 'rewrite the entire lead' isn't going to get us anywhere. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 15:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :The idea that a mythical &quot;unbiased&quot; lead section could exist that literally every Wikipedia would agree upon for such a polarizing political figure is absurd and preposterous. People act like shouting &quot;bias&quot;! is some kind of objective statement when it is essentially entirely subjective opinion. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 03:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ping|Nir007H}} There's only one way to get a re-write. You gotta put forward a proposal &amp; see if it will get a consensus. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 03:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :I may be drawn and quartered for speaking this heresy. I've long felt Wikipedia content policies are sufficiently vague, complex, nuanced, and self-contradictory as to be extremely vulnerable to the biases that we all have (anybody who claims to be without bias is either lying or completely lacking in self-awareness). That the policies prevent the effects of those biases is largely an illusion and a mass self-delusion. I've advocated massive overhaul of policy to simplify and streamline, and the silence has been deafening. Wikipedia's system of self-selected self-governance simply lacks the capacity for such massive change, and the [[WP:Wikimedia Foundation|Wikimedia Foundation]] will never intervene while Wikipedia is the most popular free encyclopedia on the web.{{pb}}If this article has been dominated by anti-Trump editors, the solution is more pro-Trump editors, people who are prepared to take the time to learn the policies and how to use them. [[WP:CONSENSUS]] is ''everything'' at Wikipedia. I've been saying this for many years and it seems to me a large majority of pro-Trumpers lack the energy for anything but arm-waving rants about fake news and the resulting fake &lt;del&gt;encyclopedia&lt;/del&gt; &lt;ins&gt;encyclopedia (a lazy intellectual cop-out)&lt;/ins&gt;&amp;mdash;merely following their leader's example. I say quit &lt;del&gt;whining&lt;/del&gt; &lt;ins&gt;whining, put on your big boy pants,&lt;/ins&gt; and do something that might have some effect. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC) Edited after replies 23:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{tq| &quot;It seems to me a large majority of pro-Trumpers lack the energy for anything but arm-waving rants about fake news and the resulting fake encyclopedia—merely following their leader's example.&quot;}} An astute observation that actually reveals the root of the problem: That's all they do because that's all there is to back up their POV. The lead is a dry restatement of dull facts, it only appears unflattering because the man's behavior has been consistently and objectively unflattering. [[User:Largely Legible Layman|Largely Legible Layman]] ([[User talk:Largely Legible Layman|talk]]) 16:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::I’d say it’s more to do with the polarisation of the American media, and one end/side being deprecated on Wikipedia. [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 16:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :'''Comment''' I generally stay far away from Trump related articles because of my extremely strong prejudices against the man. But as much as it pains me to say this, I think the lead is problematic. It reads like it was written by the DNC. Most of what is in there belongs in the article. But not all of it belongs in the lead. Clearly I'm not the only one with these concerns as there are multiple editors, in multiple threads on this page raising similar concerns. If the article wasn't linked on the main page right now, I'd seriously consider slapping an NPOV tag on it. Tone matters. The lead reads like an indictment. The laundry list of everything the man has ever been accused of is UNDUE and should be condensed into more general statement noting his controversial history, statements, legal issues etc. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 05:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::the problem is not the list of &quot;negative&quot; actions, which could maybe be condensed just to achieve a better lenght, the problem is that the lead completelly fails to convey why Trump is popular, how he got to power etc etc. It sounds tone deaf and devoided of social analysis. Look at the Hitler lead (not a comparison between individuals) and you can see how it can be done properly. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::I think that's a very good analysis. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 15:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I suspect that the lead as it is in part resulted from having too many cooks in the kitchen. Is there one person who can draft a lead for Trump based on the structure of Hitler's lead for others to review? &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The current structure seems decent to me for the time being, @[[User:Goszei|Goszei]] is [[Talk:Donald Trump#c-Goszei-20241107220400-Muboshgu-20241107215600|pointing out]] a good and clear path forward regarding content that should be added. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 21:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::It’d be so good if this article were actually educational [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 21:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Agree that this is the best step forward. [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 16:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :Support [[User:Castlemore7|Castlemore7]] ([[User talk:Castlemore7|talk]]) 14:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :I can imagine you counting the biographical articles you read like pushups &quot;9,998..9,999...10,000! Now I can finally say I have read 10,000 of those! [[Special:Contributions/68.57.163.100|68.57.163.100]] ([[User talk:68.57.163.100|talk]]) 04:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC) == lead is too long == lead is too long as it contains more than 4 para. Can we make it short ? [[User:Astropulse|Astropulse]] ([[User talk:Astropulse|talk]]) 14:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :this is by editorial design. the reality is that when everything is important, nothing is important. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 14:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::there are lot of other presidents and prominent article - where we have managed to put most important things in 4 para. 4 para is more than enough and everything else should be in body [[User:Astropulse|Astropulse]] ([[User talk:Astropulse|talk]]) 14:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::if you've a suggestion for something to cut then do so. waving arms and saying 'its too long, make it shorter' is a useless comment. [[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] ([[User talk:ValarianB|talk]]) 14:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I cut the last para. someone reverted it. Lets start by removing it [[User:Astropulse|Astropulse]] ([[User talk:Astropulse|talk]]) 15:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Why that? Why remove that he has won the election and is president elect? How does that accomplish anything? [[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] Reporting a problem and discussing it on the talk page is far from &quot;useless&quot;. Please [[WP:Assume good faith]]. If you want another editor to elaborate, a question could be asked without dismissing their contribution as useless. For example, &quot;if you've a suggestion for something to cut then do so. Which part(s) of the lead in particular do you think should be trimmed?&quot; That would be a more constructive rather than dismissive contribution. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Valarian did not say that discussing the problem is &quot;useless&quot;. They said that not being specific is &quot;useless&quot;. This lead clearly needs to be cut severely, and we need specific proposals for how to do it. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::You agree that the lead is too long. So saying 'its too long, make it shorter' was a correct analysis of the situation and the start of a discussion, not a &quot;useless&quot; comment. Other editors were actively adding to the bloated lead instead of doing what Astropulse did and attempting to discuss the problem on the talk page. Again, if another editor wants an editor to elaborate, that can be requested in a constructive rather than dismissive way. Calling other editors' comments &quot;useless&quot; without reason is not [[WP:Civil]]. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 22:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :I agree the lead is overly long. Already 7 paragraphs and he hasn't even been inaugurated for his second term yet. Checking other US presidents' articles, they generally have 4, at a push 5, paragraphs. Overloading the lead for Trump's article is an example of [[WP:Recentism]]. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 15:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I have attempted a bold restructuring of the lead, including some additions and removals of information, in these edits: [[Special:Diff/1255792425/1255793186]]. I understand that some elements of it may conflict with prior consensus, but as editors point out above this lead is a severe example of recentism. A lot more material is sure to come with his second term in office, which will expand the lead even further, so we should try to cut it down along the general lines of my edit. What do other editors think? — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 18:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Yes, the lead is disgracefully bloated. Compare it to our article for [[Joe Biden]], which has a neat and concise lead of four paragraphs. What makes Trump any different? [[WP:Summary style]] seems to have been chucked out the window. ~ [[User:HAL333|&lt;span style=&quot;background:red; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid red;&quot;&gt;'''HAL'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:HAL333|&lt;span style=&quot;background:navy; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid red;&quot;&gt;'''333'''&lt;/span&gt;]] '''(VOTE!)''' 18:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::With you on summary style, and you're far from the first person to say that (although usually applied to the body). Stick around and help make it so! &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::It feels already much better than before. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 22:31, 6 November 2024 (UTC) It seems an attempt was made to shorten the lead and the template was removed, then the content was restored to bloat the lead again but the template was not restored. The documentation of [[Template:Lead too long]] speaks of a 250 to 400 word standard. The lead section of this article is currently over 650 words! Trying to fix the problem of too many paragraphs by combining the excess paragraphs into gigantic paragraphs doesn't address the issue. Trump still hasn't even been inaugurated for his second term but the lead is substantially longer than other presidents. By my count, Trump's lead currently contains almost 1,000 more characters than FDR's lead, a man who was in office for 12 YEARS and is one of the most influential presidents in American history! This is purely recentism, we need to apply the [[WP:20YEARTEST]]. *For a start, the lead mentions &quot;After a series of business failures in the late 1990s ... He and his [...] six business bankruptcies.&quot; Are these separate events, or were some the bankruptcies during the 1990s? Couldn't these lines be combined in some way? [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 23:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :There are two sentences in the lead in particular which are not &quot;protected&quot; by standing consensus, and which editors have expressed an interest in cutting in various threads on this talk page: :*&quot;He and his businesses have been involved in more than 4,000 legal actions, including six business bankruptcies.&quot; :*&quot;The Mueller investigation later determined that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help Trump.&quot; :There is also room for trimming in other areas (why say &quot;racially charged&quot; when it is just a soft euphemism for &quot;racist&quot;, for instance), though I have seen some editors reverting these efforts for unknown reasons. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 00:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::I agree that those two are the two phrases that feels most out of place on lead. But to remove them there is surelly a need for two separates RfC. I also have a feeling the Russian interference will be preserved by an RfC, but it is interesting to see motivations for it. I guess that for american politics that is a major fact. ::I also agree on the racist part. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::To be even more clear, I find the paragraph about his presidency (4th) and about his trials and attempt to overturn (5th) satysfying. :::The issues are on second paragraph (not making a clear connection between his business empire and his shift to politic, or a misleading connection with his business legal actions) and on third paragraph (being extremelly vague and indirect to why he won) [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::Agreed. The lead's scope in general still hasn't adjusted to the election results. ::Consensus on this talk page seems to be that he was a failed, nepotistic businessman turned reality TV host, who won the 2016 election by fluke and Russian hacking. Then he became a failed insurrectionist in 2020 and found guilty of various crimes, generally an unelectable madman. Whether that's a right or wrong summary, the lead should adjust to the new development that he was elected for a second term as president. Most prior events become less leadworthy in the face of this expanding scope. ::@[[User:Goszei|Goszei]] Has there been a specific reason in edit summaries as to why we need repetition of the business failures in the second paragraph? [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 11:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == “First convicted felon as president” placement. == The Felony thing in like the opening sentence or second sentence I think is excessive, where it was before was next to the stuff about Stormy Daniel’s/Insirrection/etc. that is more logical, but someone reverted it and added it back to the first part. It’s one of those things where we gotta figure out how to level the weight, there’s a whole part in the lead right now addressing all the stuff so I think that’s fine but I would like to hear some unbiased consensus. [[User:Eg224|Eg224]] ([[User talk:Eg224|talk]]) 22:00, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Editors can argue DUE or UNDUE all day long, but the policy is sufficiently vague that, in reality, it comes down to how much one hates/loves Trump and how much they let that affect their Wikipedia editing. I hate Trump immensely (making me just a ''terrible'' person, probably possessed by demons) but I don't let it affect my editing. And this just feels like POV-pushing that high in the lead. I'm happy with it where it is at this moment, in what is currently the fourth paragraph of the lead. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::Yeah, I think it’s perfect. definitely feels biased to have it in the opening, the first president without prior experience isn’t as much so. I think that’s alright since it compares him to past Presidents in the next part too, and is talking about being the 45th/47th president [[User:Eg224|Eg224]] ([[User talk:Eg224|talk]]) 22:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::I believe you are making a mistake. He can not be labeled a &quot;convicted felon&quot; as long as his appeals processes are unconcluded. The fact that courts have granted the appeals indicates that they believe he has a chance of having the rulings reversed. [[Special:Contributions/99.33.126.209|99.33.126.209]] ([[User talk:99.33.126.209|talk]]) 05:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I believe you are mistaken. [[WP:BLPCRIME]]: &quot;A living person accused of a crime is [[presumption of innocence|presumed innocent]] until convicted by a court of law.&quot; '''NOT:''' &quot;A living person accused of a crime is [[presumption of innocence|presumed innocent]] until convicted by a court of law and all available appeals have been exhausted.&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Look, the facts are that Trumpty-Dumpty being convicted on felony counts will never be as important as his presidencies. His political career will be the most important thing to impart, not the tax evasion or fraud or whatever the hell it was NY prosecuted him for. Not to say that it isn't important enough to be mentioned in like the fourth paragraph, but his political career is the most important thing to note. Hate to get all [[Orwell]] on ya'll, but [[some animals are more equal than others]]. &lt;span style=&quot;background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;&quot;&gt;[[User:BarntToust|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7b68ee;&quot;&gt;Barnt&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:BarntToust|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#483d8b;&quot;&gt;Toust&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::A person becomes a convicted felon the instant the conviction is handed down. Sentencing does not matter. Appeals do not matter. The only criterion for &quot;convicted&quot; is the conviction itself. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 15:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC) The weight and emphasis given to facts in the lede should reflect that given in the body. Given the weighting currently seen in the body, a high placement is appropriate. If editors want to move it down, they should contest the weighting given in the body. That is the place to evaluate DUE/UNDUE. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :Thought experiment, not an actual proposal: (1) Go through the lead and make a list of the discrete topics therein. (2) Find the related body content for each item and count the words therein (i.e., weight), updating your list with those numbers. (3) Sort the list by descending word count. (4) Restructure the lead according to your sorted list.{{pb}}I think you'll find that your new lead lacks all structure and organization. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::It's true that the lede serves functions beyond being a weighted summary (e.g. contextualizing the subject, establishing notability) which gives it some structure and organization. I did intend to sidestep the wordcount weighting critique by mentioning emphasis, e.g. whether a topic is given its own heading, how high in the article/section it is, whether it is a summary or example as well as just the importance the article ascribes. ::On my broader point, what do you understand as the relationship between the lede and body re; [[WP:DUE]]? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::I don't. Frankly I think you're putting too fine a point on it, considering all the other issues going unaddressed, such as article length. We've been discussing that for years without significant progress. We need to get the body into summary style, gutting much of it, and we need more smart guys like you to help with that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:03, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Agreed that length is a very big issue. I also think if editors want to focus on other issues, such as emphasis, they should do it in a different way. ::::I'm working on [[Public image of Donald Trump]] at the moment before summarizing it in this article, I'll be interested to see how that goes before taking on a meatier section. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC) == 54. &quot;Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history.&quot; == A brief consideration: The sentence should clarify who these &quot;historians and scholars&quot; are by identifying the institution that represents them collectively or at least their nationality, per [[WP:WIKIVOICE]], [[WP:GLOBALIZE]], and [[WP:GLOBAL]]. We might also consider adding a footnote to mention the historians... Additionally, the sentence should also specify that this is an assessment of the [[First presidency of Donald Trump|first presidency]], rather than the incoming one, per [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]]. [[User:Pantarch|Pantarch]] ([[User talk:Pantarch|talk]]) 11:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :This is discussed in the body of the article along with links to additional info. Too much detail for the lead. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 11:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::Better to have many details than inaccurate ones. The sentence make an absolute claim, which is inconsistent with Wikipedia's policies. Whereas, regarding my other point, specifying 'first presidency' requires only two words. [[User:Pantarch|Pantarch]] ([[User talk:Pantarch|talk]]) 12:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::I disagree. Trump is in a bit of a unique situation (two non-consecutive terms in a period that is contemporary with Wikipedia). I think this sentence in the lede should be rewritten to clarify that the surveys and assessments so far so far were purely based on his first term as president. That of course can be changed again when there's a new ranking that explicitly considers his second term. ::Compare also to the [[Joe Biden]] article, where it has been generally considered too early to include the survey rankings until the end of his presidency. I don't think leaving them out here completely is the right way to handle it, but at the very least that part of the lede needs clarification. ::If that would be too much detail, I would even argue to remove it from the lede altogether for now until the end of his second term instead of keeping the current wording. [[Special:Contributions/2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B|2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B]] ([[User talk:2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B|talk]]) 18:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::I agree this is an uncited comment and should be removed , but since it is under strict protection that can not be done by anyone outside of a very small group, so it will remain until someone with this ability decides to do it. [[User:Washusama|Washusama]] ([[User talk:Washusama|talk]]) 06:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If we're removing &quot;uncited comments&quot; from the lead, we're deleting the lead. We cite in the body and summarize the body in the lead. See [[Donald Trump#Scholarly]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:02, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::When his second term starts we can change it to specify that it was his first term being evaluated. Until then, it is blatantly obvious due to the fact that it is the only term he has had. Your assumption that readers are too stupid to understand this is insulting. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 15:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{tq|we can change it}} Am I missing something, or is &quot;'''After his first term,''' scholars and historians ranked Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history.&quot; sufficiently clear on that point? The first four words were just added the other day, after a discussion which is linked in [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 54, per established process. How could the assessments apply to his second term if they were made after his first term? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:08, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I just think this sentence should just be removed entirely. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) &lt;!--Template:Undated--&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 07:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ::[[Wikipedia:I just don't like it]] applies. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::I just do not think a bunch of biased historians claiming something way too early is that important or too good for a Wikipedia article. I don't even think opinions should be in the lead to begin with. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) 09:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Everyone is biased, there's no such thing as an &quot;unbiased&quot; person. You are free to review the statement and source/sources provided and say &quot;they're a bunch of left wing partisan hacks and I don't believe them&quot;. That doesn't mean the views of people who study history and review historical evidence shouldn't be here. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{bcc|331dot}}I don't think this aligns with Wikipedia's [[WP:PAGS|policies and guidelines]]. [[WP:Reliable sources]] does draw a distinction between [[WP:BIASED|biased and non-biased sources]], and [[WP:SOURCE|Wikipedia:Verifiability]] includes types of creators (such as political scientists) as a [[WP:SOURCE|type of source]]. With biased sources, certain considerations must be made. This all said, the bias, and potentially its impacts, must be verifiable rather than simply asserted. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 09:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I have no problem with biases and opinions being in Wikipedia pages. They are in Wikipedia pages all the time. From reviews of various media to even awards given to people. I only have a problem when they are in the lead and given authority. Like how it is on this article right now. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) 17:00, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::: I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;given authority&quot;, but these are scholarly assessments in very reliable sources, and they carry with them whatever authority that implies. It's a significant fact about him that belongs in the lead. Only someone who is ignorant of his character and actions and believes the whitewashing from unreliable sources would doubt these scholarly assessments. The statement is accurate and properly attributed. It's okay. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) (PING me) ::::::: Those are your opinions. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) 17:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC) == Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead == It is natural that a large-scale real estate developer in the industry for decades would face a high number of lawsuits. It is worth mentioning in the body, but not worth mentioning in the lead. In the lead, the apparent purpose of this sentence is to portray Trump as a bad businessman, despite him becoming a billionaire and acquiring some of the most iconic properties in NYC. We already mention his &quot;business failures&quot; in the 1990s and shift to side ventures; I recommend removing the sentence on lawsuits, and then changing &quot;business failures&quot; to &quot;bankruptcies&quot; to be more clear. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :Source for any other land developer who has faced this number, and kind of lawsuit please? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::Looking into it, according to [https://www.usatoday.com/pages/interactives/trump-lawsuits/] close to half of the 4,000 suits were related to his casino, most of which were &quot;suits against gamblers who had credit at Trump-connected casinos and failed to pay their debts&quot;. Trump was the plaintiff in these (not the defendant), and won most of them according to the data. Another big chunk, larger than those related to his real estate, was personal injury, which is again expected when running a large number of commercial properties. He had about 600 real estate suits over a period of 40 years. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::Not what I asked, and does not support what you said. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :His involvement in litigation is a key part of Trump's biography. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::From what I posted above, a lot of the suits just seem like the cost of doing business in a litigious industry for 40 years; our article on it, [[Personal and business legal affairs of Donald Trump]], acknowledges that Trump won 92% of the suits. We have a lot in the lead about his later legal problems, but we shouldn't generalize that backwards to his business career. He was much better known for his Atlantic City casino bankruptcies than something like Trump University before 2015. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::Before 2015, Trump wasn't publicly known as &quot;that guy who got sued a lot&quot;, but as a fairly successful real estate developer who faced high-profile bankruptcies and later built a brand around his name. This is what we should convey to the reader. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 18:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::I completelly agree with Goszei here, it's a repetition that is misleading, unnecessary, and, even more important, take up space that could be used to describe how his real estate work connects to his rise to power. Goszei explained it to me in another discussion and is not conveyed properly in the current lead. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 18:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::But his dishonesty also helps explain his rise to power. Again we need sources saying this is not unusual, not editors OR. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 18:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::::You interpreting that sentence as &quot;Trump gained his wealth through dishonesty&quot; is complete POV and exactly what I am referring to when I said the figure alone misleads readers. As I showed above, the reality is more complex (the vast majority of the suits weren't related to any kind of fraud on Trump's part, and he won 92% of them). — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 19:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Agreed. That should definitely go. The whole business part of the lead is full of useless trivia. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 22:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::We have a whole page on it: [[Business career of Donald Trump]]. It is only appropriate for it to be at least a sentence in the lead of his bio. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 22:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::We should include details on his business career insofar as it explains to readers how Trump became rich (&quot;building and renovating skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses&quot;) and became a household name (licensing his name and hosting ''The Apprentice''), which are directly relevant to his rise to political power. Mentioning the number of lawsuits he had is not relevant to this purpose. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Agree this sentence in the lead should be removed. [[User:Basil the Bat Lord|Basil the Bat Lord]] ([[User talk:Basil the Bat Lord|talk]]) 05:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::When I talk about an edit, I am implying by default it coming from RS. :::::I just think that the connection between him building businnes in NY and his rise to power should be made more explicit, in the case that it is supported by RS. Just talking about golf courses and hotel doesn't make it clear enough. And the number of lawsuits further make it more misleading because it seems like he went to politics because he was poor and failing. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}} Hadn't noticed this discussion — two days after the election, all hell breaking loose in the article and on this talk page. Trump's business failures, including the bankruptcies, are a defining part of his biography and lead-worthy. Since you mentioned casinos and gamblers: it's not a sign of great business acumen when you build a casino next door to your own casino and poach patrons from yourself or when you give credit to patrons so that they gamble with our own money. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tq|when you give credit to patrons so that they gamble with our own money}}. This is established practice in the gambling industry, anyone who has tried to watch a sporting event recently has been bombarded with 'free bet' ads. The calculation being that most people are losers and getting them in the door is more valuable to the casino/sportsbook than the value of the credit/'free bet'. Regardless, declaring a casino or other business bankrupt isn't that relevant to the article that it should have multiple lines in the lead of an article about a two-term president. We can surely summarise that business failure/bankruptcies content in one line. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 11:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :To the uninitiated reader, this sentence suggests that Trump by the time of his first presidential run was a failed businessman who was absolutely drowning in lawsuits. However, a good chunk of Trump's popularity in 2016 came from the widespread view that he was a successful real estate mogul, and an icon of the &quot;glory days&quot; of American capitalism in the 1980s. The truth of course is more nuanced (we have many, many words in the article on questions about his true net worth, for example), and I understand the impulse to hint that his business career wasn't as spotless as people perceived, but this specific fact just misleads the reader. We don't even mention his billionaire status in the lead, or have a few words about his changing political affiliations, both of which are far more relevant to understanding his &quot;pitch&quot; to the American public and rise. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 03:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::Again, Goszei is right. The current formulation is misleading. It is also inderectly suggesting that Trump went to politics because he was failing in business. All of this crucially misses the points of his political rise. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::I had not read the current new version of the lead, I did now. It is very good on its shortening on the informations and critiques. I wouldn't cut out anything else at this point. :::But it is still missing any kind of information (both contextual and direct) about how and why Trump became popular as a politician. They can all find their place on the second paragraph, a couple of sentences could be enough. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::For exemple, it's a shame that those two diffs [[Https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&amp;oldid=1257901326|two]] [[Https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&amp;oldid=1257905963|diffs]] from Goszei didn't stand. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:28, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Trump wasn't a billionaire in the 80s, the article doesn't make that claim, and, if there are any reliable sources for the claim, Goszei should have added the material and the sources to the body. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Interesting, thank you for replying. I have actually took the time to read the body and more in [[Wealth of Donald Trump]]. It basically looks like he lied in tax returns to downplay his worth, and boosting his net worth to the public to increase his popularity. Before the 2016 election, there are multiple sources that estimate him at around 2-3 billions. It's a complex dinamic of debt and wealth that could be wrote out better in the lead, especially if it relates to his political rise. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::This is a fair point. The lead has changed a lot (in a positive direction) over the last few days, and I think I am satisfied with just mentioning that Trump &quot;focused on luxury accommodation&quot; (shortened from the previous list of &quot;skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses&quot;) because it gets across the personal brand of wealth and luxury that he was well-known for, without treading into the contentious territory about his net worth. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 19:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Personally I do not think that the second paragraph is satysfying as is regarding his business aspect. There is something missing to outline how the business relates to his political career. Your latest additions are spot on. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I mean the connection is there, luxury (mainly in NY?) and a succesfull tv show. But I actually don't know if that's what made him able to launch his campaign, also why the idea of even trying it arose. I hoped to find some analysis of it that at least could lead to a sentence that explains the connection, but maybe there isn't. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ===Broader critique of the lead and article=== To be honest, I believe content like this in this lead, as well as a continued focus on it within the article, represents us sticking our heads in the sand as editors. We are now far beyond the 2016 election, when points like this were used to attack Trump by his political opponents, and have entered a stage where he is bringing about a generational re-alignment in American politics. This lead, this article, and this encyclopedia should seek to clearly explain ''why'' Trump appealed to the electorate in 2016 and why he continues to do so, and explain the roots of his movement, which has only grown over the last 8 years. In many places, we miss the forest for the trees: as many political scientists and historians have concluded, Trump won not because he was racist and his voters were too, but because his message exploited an absence within the political establishment of anyone speaking to the interests of the population. We need to weave his ascendancy together with the facts of 40 years of stagnant wages, the financial crash of 2008, the abandonment of the Rust Belt, and the declining living standards of the working class. I write a lot of this up to [[WP:RECENTISM]], but now that he was elected a second time, it is clear that he isn't an aberration but a key figure in U.S. history, and our encyclopedia should reflect this. Perhaps I am asking too much for the nature of this project, but I think this is important, and hope this article improves along these lines in the years of chaos to come. Rant over. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) :That clarifies this for me. We are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and we are not (despite what some believe) his political opponents. We are taking a holistic view of Trump's life and career. He received significant coverage going back to the 1970s. We don't stop talking about past events just because of [[WP:RECENTISM]]. That includes his lawsuits and business failures, as well as the successes. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::A necessary element of taking a holistic view on someone's life is that the view changes with new events, which open new perspectives on what in their life is relevant and what is not. In the narrow sense of editing this article's lead, in my opinion this means focusing on why he gained power in 2016 and now in 2024 and the bases of his mass movement. To me, wasting words on the comparatively trivial matter of his business lawsuits is not part of that overarching goal. If he was just a businessman, yes, but not for who he has become. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 22:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::Fair point. I do believe that the political activities from 2015 on need to be rewritten because of the unavoidable RECENTISM. But, any proper biography of Trump will include his business career, which was substantial and covered in the press and has led him to where he is. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 23:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::More and more RS on the deeper, long-term socio-economic and political trends which I described above are sure to be released and get added to this article. I only ask that editors keep an open mind and adapt to changing conditions within the RS. Much of this article's trivial content, almost all based on nearsighted and shallow analysis of contemporaneous news coverage, will need to be aggressively cut and replaced by the good stuff. Again, this is RECENTISM and will be fixed over time, hopefully sooner rather than later. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 18:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::I could not agree more with Goszei. I have been trying [[Talk:Donald Trump#something feels missing on lead|to say the same]] for a few days. Glad I am not the only one noticing the need for improvement. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 21:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] this and other discussion is where Goszei and others have been trying to argument in favor of a direct addition of the elements you removed from the lead. Goszei found a very concise prose in my opinion, which makes the second paragraph feel more complete and makes the connection to how/why Trump won in the third paragraph. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 23:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC) == Conflict of interest section == &quot;During Trump's term in office, he visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days, one visit for every 3.4 days of his presidency&quot; This includes his private residences, such as Mar-a-lago. This does not necessarily equate to a conflict of interest and should not be in the section. This might be substantial evidence enough for political op-eds, but not Wikipedia. It could be phrased like 'Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties'. In-fact, alot of this article could be written in a manner similar to this. [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C|2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C|talk]]) 07:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :The source does not say &quot;Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties&quot;. It does, however, exactly say &quot;Trump has visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days of his presidency, or one visit every 3.4 days. That means that he has visited on about two days of every week of his presidency.&quot; What you are saying it should be changed to is [[WP:OR]] and potentially [[WP:SYNTH]]. Unless, of course, you can provide a source that directly states it. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd&quot;&gt;SmittenGalaxy&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold&quot;&gt;&amp;#124;&lt;/span&gt; [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-style:italic; color:#000080&quot;&gt;talk!&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::I am having some difficulty parsing this source. The main thrust of mentioning his visits to the private properties is that it was leisure when he said he would be busy, and that it was costly to the taxpayer to have him travel there. It seems to be a slightly unnatural reading to say him visiting a property every 3.4 days constitutes a conflict of interest. Tell me if I'm wrong. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 07:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::It relates to earlier in the paragraph, talking about how he was sued for violation of the [[Domestic Emoluments Clause]] and [[Foreign Emoluments Clause]]. It does read a bit strange when you only read that specific part of the source; it does go on later to explain more about this, so if anything, it should be expanded to include that as opposed to removed. I will however leave that to someone more experienced than me. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd&quot;&gt;SmittenGalaxy&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold&quot;&gt;&amp;#124;&lt;/span&gt; [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-style:italic; color:#000080&quot;&gt;talk!&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I think it's too SYNTHY to use it as evidence of him violating those clauses unless a RS makes that connection. What do you think? Or just slap on a {{context needed}} and leave it at that? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::That's probably the best option for now, if it weren't as late I'd probably go in and rework that section myself. But it seems sufficient to me. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd&quot;&gt;SmittenGalaxy&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold&quot;&gt;&amp;#124;&lt;/span&gt; [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-style:italic; color:#000080&quot;&gt;talk!&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1256116394&amp;oldid=1256116195 Added it in] [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Well, for one thing, he significantly overcharged the Secret Service for using his properties when they had no choice but to be there.[https://www.npr.org/2022/10/17/1129491352/trump-hotels-overcharged-secret-service-agents][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/18/trump-overcharge-secret-service-hotel] &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 14:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thanks for this context. It does seem a bit small-fry compared to the other controversies listed. Why do you think a mention would not be UNDUE? You're more familiar with this page than I. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 15:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Trump overcharging the Secret Service demonstrates his attempts to enrich himself off of the presidency, and there are sources for this throughout the time of his first campaign, presidency, and Biden's presidency. Above I provided a source from 2022 and one from 2024. Here's one from [https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/donald-trump-secret-service-campaign-travel-payments-228553 2016], one from [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41005868 2017], and one from [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/feds-spend-70k-trump-hotel-scotland/story?id=56675168 2018]. It's certainly DUE for a sentence in the body. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Unless I've missed it, none of those sources allege Trump was overcharging. Each just notes that the USSS reimburses private entities for the cost of bringing them around, but the difference in the Trump case is that he typically owns the private planes, hotels, etc, to which the reimbursements are paid. A storm in a teacup. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 22:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Would you kindly briefly summarise the sources you mention and explain how you would use them? Thank you, [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 14:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Deceptive claim and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1256155368 deceptive edit]. The 2022 source is about allegations in a letter by House oversight committee chair, a Democrat. The 2024 source is about a House oversight committee minority report. The minority of Democrats does not represent the committee as a whole. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 19:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Deception is not my intent, nor is it an assumption of good faith in your part to suggest I am trying to deceive anyone. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 23:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::I made no such suggestion. By &quot;deceptive&quot; I mean &quot;misleading&quot;. I have not ascribed any motive, just stated the obvious. AGF works both ways. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 14:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::&quot;Deception&quot; implies intent. There's no AGF on vocabulary, unless English is not your first language. That I do not know. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::Please just stop. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 15:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::When you're more careful in the language you use, I'll stop. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I do think the content you tagged should be removed as improper synthesis, as explained. Removing the tag certainly was not helpful. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 18:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Removal seems in order.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 02:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::What's the synthesis? Is that sources don't use the phrase &quot;conflict of interest&quot;? The Democratic minority report called it [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/18/trump-overcharge-secret-service-hotel &quot;the world’s greatest get-rich-quick scheme&quot;] and discusses the emoluments issue. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::We are talking about Bump's column. I do not see a hook for &quot;conflict of interest&quot; in that source – either explicit or implicit. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 15:45, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Here's a [https://time.com/donald-trumps-suite-of-power/ Time magazine] piece that directly uses the term &quot;conflict of interest&quot; to describe the Trump presidency use of Trump Organization properties. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::Where are you going with this? This sub thread is solely about Bump's column, about the content removed in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1256355950 this edit]. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 17:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::I can't speak to what was in the Bump column as it's paywalled, but I added sourced content about Trump properties being a conflict of interest and it was removed without an explanation, or at least I can't find it. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::I did insert a link to an archived version without the paywall, but it was removed. I understand the page is near the [[WP:PEIS]] limit, but the solution is surely using [[WP:Lua|#invoke]] or such rather than creating accessibility issues? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:13, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::[https://web.archive.org/web/20210125173840/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/20/trumps-presidency-ends-where-so-much-it-was-spent-trump-organization-property/ This] is the link to the archived version. Don't most editors know how to access the [https://web.archive.org/ Wayback Machine] and paste the url of a paywalled article into the text field? [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::::Most? I doubt it. I think that's covered in Wikipedia Editing 302. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 15:39, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::::Muboshgu has waaay more edits than me and is an admin to boot, so I just assumed. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::I'll go with &quot;that's when the wayback machine was down&quot;. Or I just forgot to check it. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC) I added material with RS that made the connection between Trump visits and influence-seekers at his {{tq|private residences}}. They're actually commercial properties where he also maintains a private residence. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC) == 2nd assassination attempt == The Pennsylvania attempt is featured in the article and a link to the page about it is included, but the absence of anything about the 2nd attempt in Florida, including a link to the page for it, is strikingly absent. I'm sure authorized editors will quickly correct this honest oversight. [[Special:Contributions/216.168.91.102|216.168.91.102]] ([[User talk:216.168.91.102|talk]]) 22:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :We don't mention the 2016 incident where someone tried to kill Trump, so I don't see why we need to mention the Florida incident. The only one where Trump was harmed was the Pennsylvania one, so that one seems like the most important one to include. The Florida incident can be mentioned at the article for [[Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign|the 2024 campaign]]. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 15:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC) == Assassination attempts in lede? == Why not a brief mention of the two assassination attempts against Trump in the lede? Surely it's up there in notability with him serving two non-consecutive terms. [[User:Evaporation123|Evaporation123]] ([[User talk:Evaporation123|talk]]) 01:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :There have been more then 2 [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 04:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :I was thinking this earlier today. Feels odd that this is not mentioned. ([[User talk:Not0nshoree|Discuss]] [[User:Not0nshoree|'''''0nshore's''''']] [[Special:contributions/Not0nshoree|contributions!!!]]) 15:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Yes, it was a very important event in Trump's political life, so it's correct to include this information in the lead. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 18:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Popular vote win or loss? &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Last section of lead breaks WIKI policies&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == “winning both the [[List of United States presidential elections by popular vote margin|popular]] and electoral vote” this is from the newest section of the lead he did win the electoral vote but the popular vote is still being counted as of 11/8 11:20 EST he has only a 2.6% lead with millions of votes left to count particularly from California this is assumption and there isn’t any vaild source claiming he did this needs to be removed immediately [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 04:21, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :From the cursory research I've just done, including NBC and NYT, it does appear a popvote loss is within the realm of possibility, so there may be a bit of [[WP:CRYSTAL]] there. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:51, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::Shouldn’t it be removed until then? [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 18:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::Someone may have to do that just to get some eyes on the issue. You don't need prior agreement for a [[WP:BOLD|bold]] edit that does not violate an existing consensus. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :Leave it be, until/if Harris passes him. PS - {{ping|John Bois}} It would be best to first bring this up at [[2024 United States presidential election]], where Trump's pop-vote total is currently bolden, in the infobox. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:John Bois|John Bois]] [[WP:THEHILL]] has [https://thehill.com/homenews/nexstar_media_wire/4976301-when-was-the-last-time-the-republican-party-won-the-popular-vote/ reported] a popular vote win for Trump; however, if it’s not already covered in the body it probably should be added. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 19:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::NBC NYT and AP have not declared it yet [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 19:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've opened [[Talk:2024 United States presidential election#Popular vote total|up a discussion]] at the 2024 election page, about your concerns. Honestly though, most of the networks must have confirmed that there's not enough (currently uncounted) votes left for Harris to overtake Trump, going by the percentage track. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Thank you! [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 04:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I suppose it’s up to editor consensus since we have some reliable sources reporting popular vote victory and some are not. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 19:38, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If there are a few reliable sources claiming it, we should have it in until proven otherwise. There is pretty good confidence/credible info that points that direction. I think [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]] is more of unsubstantiated claims. [[User:MaximusEditor|MaximusEditor]] ([[User talk:MaximusEditor|talk]]) 18:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::There's no harm in waiting for it to be official. California only has 63% reporting at the moment, there are more votes to come that at the very least will make it a narrow margin either way. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 01:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC) == Public image summary style == I mentioned in a thread above that some of the content in #Public image has nothing to do with public image and creates verifiability issues. Having now read the main article, [[Public image of Donald Trump]], I can see this stems from a failure to use [[WP:SUMMARYSTYLE]]. To conform, the lvl3 headings in #Public image should be the lvl2 headings in the main article, not just a spot to throw miscellanea. Such a rewrite would remove discussion of Trump's use of social media and racism, which are likely DUE for this article. I want to discuss where they should go. Keeping them in #Public image isn't an option given the violation of [[WP:Verifiability]]. Best, [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC) [[Talk:Donald Trump#Public Image#Incitement of Violence|Here]] the previous thread. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 21:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :I have made some changes to the organization per the above. The article was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256505959 previously structured]: :'''7 Public''' Image 7.1 Scholarly assessment and public approval surveys 7.2 False or misleading statements 7.3 Promotion of conspiracy theories 7.4 Incitement of violence 7.5 Social media 7.6 Relationship with the press 7.7 Racial views 7.8 Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct 7.9 Popular culture :It is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256522879 now structured]: :'''7 Assessments''' 7.1 Public 7.2 Scholarly :'''8 Political practice''' 8.1 False or misleading statements 8.2 Rhetoric 8.3 Promotion of conspiracy theories 8.4 Social media 8.5 Relationship with the press :'''9 Prejudice''' 9.1 Racial views 9.2 Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct :I have also started a discussion at [[Talk:Racial views of Donald Trump#Changing the title]] which will impact the subheading &quot;Racial views&quot; [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC) == Too many words together, in blue == Forgive me folks. But &quot;[[Second inauguration of Donald Trump|His inauguration as the 47th president]]&quot;, looks terrible. It's a long blue sentence, basically. I attempted to fix this with &quot;[[Second inauguration of Donald Trump|His inauguration]] as the 47th president&quot;. But was reverted. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :{{Ping|GoodDay}} in my opinion it's necessary. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 00:30, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256444346 Your edit] created an [[MOS:EGG]] problem. The article has many links of that length or longer, and the length of the linktext is not our first priority. You might as well change [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|hush money payment to Stormy Daniels]] to [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|hush money payment]] to Stormy Daniels because there's &quot;too much blue&quot;, and I think most editors would oppose that as well. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:45, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::I'm not gonna push this too much, as the lead will change 500+ more times, between now &amp; January 20, 2025. On inauguration day, the whole sentence will be extinct by then. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:48, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{Ping|GoodDay}} the [[Donald Trump]] discussion page is already too long, in my opinion this thread is unnecessary (in my opinion). [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 21:41, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Concluded discussions tend to get archived, after twenty-four hours. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{Ping|GoodDay}} damn, excuse me. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 21:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{Ping|GoodDay}} Only after closure, per consensus 13. Are you withdrawing this? If so, I'll close. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC) {{hat|Off-topic, borderline bullying. Be better. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 01:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC)}} :::Awesome. Please don't start discussions about things that you are not going to push very much. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Please don't tell me what to do. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:52, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Please don't tell ''me'' what to do. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC) {{hab}} == Inclusion of release of grades == I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256544506 removed] &quot;In 2015, Trump's lawyer threatened Trump's colleges, his high school, and the [[College Board]] with legal action if they released his academic records&quot; from the early life section saying it was &quot;undue for this section&quot;. A few hours later, {{u|Farkle Griffen}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256597546 added it back in] with the description &quot;Explained why his academic performance is not known&quot;, not addressing the concern about whether it was [[WP:DUE|giving it too much emphasis]]. Before I removed the text, I did a search of coverage, and found that the issue was very rarely mentioned after it was discovered, and only in passing. Giving it a relatively high amount of attention in the early life section therefore seems inappropriate. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :I disagree [[User:Anonymous8206|Anonymous8206]] ([[User talk:Anonymous8206|talk]]) 00:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Didn't see that it was previously removed, but mentioning academic performance in school is relatively common in Wikipedia articles on biographies of political figures, and it's certainly relevant in a section about academic history; mentioning why this information is not available seems just as relevant. I don't see how a single sentence is too much emphasis. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 00:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|Farkle Griffen}} Could you respond to the issue of coverage not being lasting (applying [[WP:NOTNEWS]] and [[WP:RECENTISM]])? I do believe the Early life section should be expanded; if that happened I would be more likely to support inclusion. Right now however, &quot;one sentence&quot; makes up 20% of Wikipedia's coverage of Trump's early life. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:13, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::To be clear, I'm not that much in favor of keeping it, it just feels like a strange argument to say: &quot;This section is too short... so we should make it shorter.&quot; But to respond to your first sentence, this news went viral around February 2019, which was five (nearly six) years ago; I could be wrong, but I don't think [[WP:NOTNEWS]] and [[WP:RECENTISM]] apply here. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Re Farkle Griffen; it is a strange argument, but the idea is that the article is already very unbalanced against the Early life section, and this would make a negligible change to that imbalance, while the Early life section is very unbalanced towards this event, and removing it would make a significant change to that imbalance. See my reply below for RECENTISM in particular. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{tq|coverage not being lasting}} You seem to be saying we shouldn't keep the content because RS is not still talking about it. That doesn't seem workable, since RS has other things to talk about. RECENTISM? What's recent about something that happened nine years ago? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:00, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The second sentence of RECENTISM says &quot;It is writing without an aim toward a long-term, historical view,&quot; which is how I'm assessing DUE. The best sources for assessing whether biographical details are DUE in this sense are, obviously, biographies, as they are assessing how details fit into a life as a whole. On the other end of the spectrum, the absolute worst sources for this assessment are breaking news sources about a revelation about a biographical detail. As an example, Trump's eligibility for the draft received a lot more coverage than this over a longer time period. But biographies published after the fact treat it as a small issue in his early life overall. These sources are therefore insufficient to show it is DUE. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I'm struggling to imagine writing this article primarily based on published biographies, in which content can't be written or verified without a trip to the library or a book store. Are we to limit editing to editors who are prepared to do that (which would exclude me), or should the rest of us just take the word of those who are?{{pb}}As a practical matter, you're not going to get consensus for reasoning that departs from how editors have operated here for eight years&amp;mdash;unless you have uninvolved closure in which the closer is convinced by your arguments. You may be in the unfortunate position of being far superior to your colleagues. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I won't press this any further, there doesn't seem to be momentum. For my own benefit in determining if material is DUE on this page in the future, would &quot;Coverage across multiple RS is sufficient to suggest inclusion is DUE&quot; be an accurate summary of this discussion? ::::::I will note that high-quality sources that are doing overall evaluations are most beneficial for DUE in creating the bones of the article. Editors still have to put meat on them. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::In my opinion, the article has been dysfunctional in the DUE area for eight years. Some content has been added on the basis of one or two sources and accompanying &quot;editorial judgment&quot; that it's DUE. Other content has been omitted on the basis of 15 sources and accompanying &quot;editorial judgment&quot; that it's UNDUE. It seemed to me that DUE has been more about &quot;editorial judgment&quot; than anything else, which left the article wide open to editor biases. Thankfully, one of the main culprits was recently indefinitely banned from all things Donald Trump (not for that reason but for bad behavior), but they were only one. I can't fix the world. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Based on your experience here, what do you think should be done to help with NPOV? In a similar vein, you mention below that you are looking for arguments beyond editorial judgement, and you later indicated this was met. What was it that convinced you that DUE was met? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{tq|Based on your experience here, what do you think should be done to help with NPOV?}} In a better encyclopedia, ArbCom or WMF would intervene here. That's fantasy at this point, so I don't know what could be done. It's part of why I'm semi-retired. I'm just here for the mental stimulation, for interaction with other smart people (I don't do social media), because I have a talent for efficiency and organization that makes me a good facilitator on this page, and because I have nothing better to do with my time. {{tq|What was it that convinced you that DUE was met?}} Six linked sources and the promise of {{tq|about a dozen others}}, which I took at face value. We can talk about &quot;larger issues&quot; all day long, but we also have to get some work done. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:26, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Thanks for these comments. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:27, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :There's too much &quot;editorial judgment&quot; going on here. Somebody please present a persuasive DUE case for inclusion, based on RS coverage. Absent that, I support the removal. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:58, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::Not sure what DUE has to do with this since this doesn't seem to be a NPOV issue, however, for RS coverage, just going going off the first results on Google, this is mentioned by: [https://time.com/5540152/donald-trump-michael-cohen-academic-records/Lq6 Time Magazine] , [https://apnews.com/article/04f0236264e8427d9995e4de68e62729 AP News], [https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/27/politics/michael-cohen-trump-threaten-school-records/index.html CNN], [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/fordham-university-confirms-cohen-warned-it-not-to-disclose-trumps-grades PBS News], [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/politics/trump-school-grades.html NY Times], and [https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/02/27/cohen-says-he-threatened-schools-over-possible-release-president-trumps-sat-scores-or-grades/ WP], among about a dozen others. Granted, these are news stories, not biographies. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::Unless I'm mistaken, DUE has everything to do with all content. {{tq|Granted, these are news stories, not biographies.}} I'd say 90%+ of the article is based on news stories; that's the nature of the beast. (As I interpret it, NOTNEWS mostly means we don't (or shouldn't) rush to publish breaking news.) Now, since I don't move goalposts, you have persuaded me unless someone can persuasively counter your case by showing how those sources don't support the content. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::AFAIK, &quot;DUE&quot; only refers to [[WP:DUE]], which is a subsection of [[WP:Neutral Point of View]], and only really talks about the due ''weight'' of a ''viewpoint''. Am I wrong? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:19, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::You're right, although DUE tends to be used as a shorthand for all weighting issues. [[WP:PROPORTION]] is more accurate. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Hey, I'm no policy guru; much of it moggles my bind. All I know is that, in practice at this article and others where I've spent significant time, &quot;viewpoint&quot; is a very broad term loosely applied. Why don't you take this specific case to [[WP:NPOVN]] and (with any luck) educate all of us? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:30, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :We need room for obvious reasons. Stuff like this should probably be on the chopping block. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|R. G. Checkers}} Why do you think this is undue? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::We are never going to make significant progress on article size one sentence at a time; might as well try to significantly shrink Lake Erie using buckets while others are pouring water into it with other buckets &lt;/hyperbolic metaphor&gt;. Progress on article size will require gutting large parts of the article, such as much of the detail in &quot;Foreign policy&quot;, moving to summary style. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC) Related discussion at &quot;Wording of sentence on Trump attending New York Military Academy&quot; with more sources, above. Trump has claimed since the 1970s that he [https://web.archive.org/web/20151001054028/https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/business/dealbook/decades-old-questions-over-trumps-wealth-and-education.html graduated at the top of his class] at Wharton and that you had to be a [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-who-often-boasts-of-his-wharton-degree-says-he-was-admitted-to-the-hardest-school-to-get-into-the-college-official-who-reviewed-his-application-recalls-it-differently/2019/07/08/0a4eb414-977a-11e9-830a-21b9b36b64ad_story.html super genius] to be admitted to Wharton in 1966. Both claims were debunked, despite Trump not releasing his records. And in 2019 Michael Cohen turned over the threatening letters Trump had him send to Wharton and his high school. It wasn't just the news of the day, it's been mentioned in probably every Trump biography published since then. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC) As for {{tq|need[ing] room for obvious reasons}}, that's [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]. My crystal ball thinks we'll end up with comparisons between his first and second presidency, resulting in fewer details for the first one. We'll have to wait and see what RS report about the second one. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Thanks {{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}. I've got my copy of [[Trump Revealed]] to see the weighting they place. Their discussion of Trump's grades are quite limited, and only really discussed in the context of Wharton, which makes sense given that was a focus to establish credibility as a businessman. In their discussion of Trump at Wharton, they give an equal amount of value Trump ascribed to the degree, to his draft exemption, his later alumni contributions and how relatively wealth he was compared to the cohort. His education at Wharton covers four pages of the 20 dedicated to his early life. :A lot more of the text is spent discussing his aggression as a child and teen; this should be included before his grades are. If his Early life were expanded to the size of [[Barack Obama#Early life and career|Barack Obama's]], it should certainly be included. I'll check other biographies later to see how their emphases compare. The needing room comment may refer to the article's size already being very long. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::The book was published in 2016, three years before Cohen [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/politics/trump-school-grades.html told the NYT] about Trump's efforts to keep his grades secret after harping about Obama's academic record for years. As if anyone but Trump would care about high school grades 50 years later. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::I didn't mean to imply it was published after this came out. In your estimation, how much more of the early life section would have been taken up by it if it had? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 14:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::No idea. Pre-presidency content that went to character kept getting trimmed because of the avalanche of presidency events. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC) == Statistic and Grover Cleveland in the lead == {{tq|Becoming only the second President in history to serve non-consecutive terms, the first being Grover Cleveland.}} Is the statistic leadworthy? Is Grover Cleveland leadworthy? (Also, [[MOS:EDITORIAL]], [[MOS:OFFICE]], and missing subject and verb.) [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :I personally think that something that has only happened twice in over 200 years of U.S. presidency is lead worthy, but others may disagree, that's just my two cents [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 22:19, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::This indicates support for the first sentence. Do you support the second? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 22:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::I'm not really sure what the second is proposing, I had a look at those policies but have obviously missed / overlooked something when trying to understand [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 23:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|Artem P75}} apologies if I was unclear. The second sentence is {{tq|Is Grover Cleveland leadworthy?}} [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I guess maybe not? as he isn't the subject matter? Maybe we could mention Trump being only the second without mentioning Grover... but I also do agree with @[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] that the lead is too long and could use some culling [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 00:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Not to nitpick, but he hasn't served his second term, yet. The sentence would be more accurate, after he assumes office in January 2025. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 22:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::Ah yeah, I agree with that, I think the policy is WP:CRYSTALBALL? Or something that I have seen used for this? Maybe could say ''elected'' to serve a second term instead? Otherwise may as well just wait until the 20th of Jan to make the decision [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 23:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Our lead is too long as it is. Throwing in this tidbit about Grover Cleveland doesn't help matters. It's [[WP:TRIVIA]]. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 00:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1256876621&amp;oldid=1256875459 Removed Grover Cleveland reference] [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Not trivia by any means; pulling a Grover Cleveland by winning the 2024 Presidential race after losing a bid for re-election in 2020 is something Donald here has lately been getting lots of attention for, with the press making comparisons between both men following this highly unusual achievement. The 132 years elapsing before that happening on the other hand is an expendable count. We definitely should have some mention of doing something only Grover did before. Let's not downplay the significance of it. The first paragraph doesn't necessarily have to be the place to discuss that, and I'm fine with the last one doing so. In the linked diff showing removal, Rollinginhisgrave also carelessly ignored how the ambiguity of just saying Donald is the second to win non-consecutive election will leave readers asking &quot;Who was the first to do so?&quot; and we shouldn't assume everyone will already know the answer. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 02:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Highly unusual because parties usually have the good sense not to nominate the loser a second time, but good sense goes out the window after a political party has transformed itself into a cult. Cleveland's misogyny ({{tq|sensible and responsible women do not want to vote. The relative positions to be assumed by men and women in the working out of our civilization were assigned long ago by a higher intelligence}}) and anti-labor stance would have fit right in but how many readers come to this page to read about him. Also, &quot;second&quot;? Trump has a few — uh — achievements all to himself: first felon, first man found liable by a court for sexual assault, first nominee/president-elect to be promoting merch from shoes to Bibles Made in China branded with his name. If we want to cite stats in the lead, these are the ones we should select. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|SNUGGUMS}} Much of the lede invites questions: why did his businesses fail? How did Russia interfere? What did he do that was racist, sexist etc? So on. To answer those questions a reader may read on to see what the lede is summarizing. It's the nature of summary style. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} You're presuming all viewers would have enough time to read the page beyond its lead section and that's not a guarantee. To elaborate on rarity, what I'm getting at is that non-consecutive wins are an almost unprecedented occurrence that many folks once believed would never be repeated. The closest anybody came before last week was Theodore Roosevelt during the 1912 election. This is far less common than things like businesses failing or someone being racist/sexist. While I can't yet say for sure that it'll be the most prominent trait of his Presidential statistics like it appears to be for Grover, people either way would expect a straightforward mention of names when discussing only one of two in history who broke longstanding patterns. It wouldn't exactly be a big bloat to simply identify him. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 22:47, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :I would agree that something that has happened only twice in over 200 years is lead worthy... I think the lead in general needs a very thorough cleanup, for example the entire third paragraph, starting with: :&quot;In his first term, Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, funded expansion of the Mexico–United States border wall...&quot; :Should probably just be moved to the &quot;First Presidency&quot; section... These are things he did while he was in office for his first term so I would think that is the section where they belong rather than contributing to the bloat in the lead... but I will not expand the subject matter here and will raise another talk page post on this &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 22:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Leads convey the most important parts of the person's bio. There are a number of sources about Grover Cleveland's presidency now that we have a second non-consecutive term president, but this press will die out before Thanksgiving and it will be mostly forgotten. Cleveland is meaningless to Trump's biography aside from that one trivial commonality. I do agree about the need for a thorough rewrite though. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 23:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::We need to reflect the emphasis that RS put on this. Our discussion of the comparison to Cleveland is sourced to [https://www.npr.org/2024/11/04/g-s1-32048/grover-cleveland-trump-non-consecutive-terms this NPR article]. Those who support including the comparison in the lede: do you think this sourcing verifies that inclusion in the lede would be [[WP:PROPORTIONATE]], and that it's inclusion (from [[WP:MOS/LEAD]]) {{tq|reflect[s] its importance to the topic?}} [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I do not think there is a weight issue here per [[WP:PROPORTIONATE]], it currently only makes up a single sentence of the lead, its not as though it goes in to depth or discussion, it just mentions it as a single line tagged on to the mentioning of his second victory, which was a non-consecutive victory, so I believe is worth mentioning as it is only the second in history. Although this is also mentioned at the end of the first paragraph: {{tq|&quot;In November 2024, he was re-elected to a second, non-consecutive term as president&quot;}} so we could add mention of the fact that this is only the second time this has happened in that section and remove mention of it in the last paragraph? &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 23:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Just to be clear, that NPR link isn't the only piece to make comparisons between these guys, and Artem has a good point on weight/proportionate concerns. I see no violation per the importance of these unconventional winning stats. Muboshgu also got overly hasty with remarks on people forgetting it before Thanksgiving. That's purely speculation and we have no way of telling for certain how many will remember the similarities. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 23:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Thanks SNUGGUMS and Artem for these replies. I agree that Muboshgu's comment likely fell too far into [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]], but we do need to account for [[WP:RECENTISM]]. Including one sentence on something of course can give too much weight, even if it's not in depth. I'm sure you can think of many examples. Proportion therefore applies, as does MOS:LEAD. :::::{{tq|so I believe is worth mentioning as it is only the second in history}} I understand you believe that, but we are to reflect the importance placed by RS. Do you think that is demonstrated by the source provided? :::::{{tq|that NPR link isn't the only piece to make comparisons}} If you think other sources are able/better able to verify the importance, please provide them. :::::I want to reassure you both that I'm not opposed to including the comparison, I just want to ensure it's inclusion doesn't violate [[WP:NPOV]] by verifying that importance placed reflects that of RS. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I guess if giving appropriate weight to the RS is the concern it would be beneficial to locate other sources that report on this so as to not give an undue balance. I'm sure this will not be difficult as it does seem like something noteworthy, but then again it may not be as noteworthy as I perceive and there very may well not be much RS on it. I will see if I can locate some good reliable sources in my free time this afternoon and propose them here &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} For what it's worth, there's pieces from [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2024/11/06/grover-cleveland-other-president-win-back-trump-election/ The Daily Telegraph], [https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4979460-trump-election-grover-cleveland-white-house/amp/ The Hill], [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/us/politics/trump-grover-cleveland-second-term.html The New York Times], [https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/11/06/donald-trump-grover-cleveland-non-consecutive-president-terms/76088079007/ USA Today] [https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article295130869.html Miami Herald], [https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/national-international/donald-trump-grover-cleveland-nonsecutive-presidential-terms/3666352/ WBC-TV (aka NBC Washington)], etc. that discuss differences and similarities between the men. If you want other samples, then I could provide those as well. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 06:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :That's okay for now. This goes some way to establishing [[WP:WEIGHT]], although insufficiently (it's unclear how this goes beyond simple verifiability, and [[WP:VNOT|verifiability does not guarantee inclusion]]). To avoid [[Wikipedia:Bring me a rock]], if you'll permit me a few hours I'll have a look through sourcing. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{u|SNUGGUMS}}, {{u|Artem P75}} I had a go at evaluating the weighting RS put on claims to importance. I used a sample of sources; a different sample may generate different results. I searched &quot;donald trump win&quot; (not in quotes) on Google. I opened every result for a few pages and closed pages that were attributed as an individual's opinion or analysis. I closed some that didn't discuss what the election meant. I closed some that were about a subtopic, such as the election win in Arizona, and talked about the importance to Arizona etc. Excluded articles were: [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/09/politics/donald-trump-election-what-matters/index.html][https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/president-results][https://www.npr.org/2024/11/10/g-s1-33609/donald-trump-wins-arizona][https://www.heritage.org/conservatism/commentary/trumps-win-ordinary-americans-declared-independence-the-elites][https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ap-race-call-donald-trump-wins-arizona][https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/trump-wins-arizona-election-harris-swing-state-rcna173809][https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/11/05/us/elections/results-president.html][https://naacp.org/articles/naacp-reacts-news-president-elect-donald-trumps-win-2024-presidential-election][https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/10/20/trump-overturn-2024-election-plan-00184103][https://www.cbsnews.com/video/the-factors-that-led-to-donald-trumps-victory/][https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-harris-polls][https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/][https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-lede/donald-trump-wins-a-second-term]. I then crudely [[coding (social sciences)|coded]] the results and even more crudely numerically described the emphasis the source was placing (1 being in the title, 0 being not mentioned). {{Collapse top}} {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; |+ Crude [[Coding (social sciences)|Coding]] of news articles |- | Title |Outlet|| + Latino shift || + votes on border || + Urban votes || No change in suburban vote || Rural vote || Swing state sweep || Political comeback || Won frustrated voters || Validated coarse rhetoric || Outperformed 2020 || + US stock market || + BTC || Non-consecutive || Grover Cleveland || First convicted felon || Oldest elected || Prices || Crime || Migrants || Kamala unpopular Biden || Consumer sentiment || Inflation || Young voters || Suburban movement || Not a huge win || Shocked Democrats || Women voters || Black voters || College degree voters || Kamala time-short || Trump's Continuing dominance of politics || Blue wall defeated || COVID considered history || Tim Walz bad || White voters || Economy || Decisive || Popular vote, first Republican in 20 years || Religious || Trans || Deportation || Anti-elite || Not shocking || 2nd time beating woman || Not seen as fascist || Female president || Protests || Men || White without college degree || Direction of country |- |[https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/10/politics/trump-voter-shifts-nationwide/index.html Trump’s 2024 victory revealed voter shifts that could reshape America’s political landscape] |CNN|| 0.75 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/election-2024-trump-celebrates-win/ Election 2024: Trump sweeps all 7 battleground states, CBS News projects] |CBS|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://apnews.com/article/election-day-trump-harris-white-house-83c8e246ab97f5b97be45cdc156af4e2 Trump wins the White House in a political comeback rooted in appeals to frustrated voters] |AP|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0.9 || 0.5 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- |[https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2024-11-12/donald-trumps-presidential-election-victory-in-6-charts Donald Trump’s Election Victory, in 6 Charts] |U.S. News|| 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.lemonde.fr/en/united-states/article/2024/11/10/2024-us-election-donald-trump-wins-arizona_6732283_133.html 2024 US Election: Donald Trump wins Arizona in swing state sweep] |Le Monde|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://time.com/7172052/how-donald-trump-won-2024/ How Trump Won] |Time|| 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/7/us-election-results-how-did-donald-trump-break-the-blue-wall US election results: How did Donald Trump break the ‘blue wall’ – again?] |Al Jazeera|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-win-presidency-2024/ Donald Trump wins election in historic comeback after 2020 loss, indictments and bruising campaign] |CBS|| 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/czxrnw5qrprt Donald Trump wins 2024 US election in historic comeback] |BBC|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://apnews.com/article/trump-harris-presidential-election-takeaways-d0e4677f4cd53b4d2d8d18d674be5bf4 Election takeaways: Trump’s decisive victory in a deeply divided nation] |AP|| 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.3 || 0.25 || 0 || 0.3 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.1 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0.5 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/us/politics/trump-wins-presidency.html Donald Trump Returns to Power, Ushering in New Era of Uncertainty] |NY Times|| 0.3 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.7 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.3 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0.4 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gpd2487e5o The view from countries where Trump's win really matters] |BBC|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-wins-2nd-term-historic-return-white/story?id=115358710 Donald Trump wins 2nd term in historic return to White House] |ABC|| || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.6 || 0 || 0 || 0.6 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://time.com/7175083/donald-trump-presidency-inflation/ What Donald Trump’s Win Means for Inflation] |Time|| || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- |[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/10/trump-wins-arizona-completing-sweep-of-all-seven-battleground-states-ap-reports Trump wins Arizona to clinch sweep of seven battleground states] |The Guardian|| || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- |[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/06/donald-trump-wins-presidential-election/ Donald Trump wins presidential election, defeating Harris to retake White House] |Washington Post|| 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.35 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0.6 || 0 || 0 || 0.7 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.75 || 0.75 |- | Sum | || 3.55 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 3 || 5.25 || 3.1 || 0.5 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 1.15 || 1.1 || 0.75 || 1.65 || 0.9 || 0.25 || 1.65 || 1.6 || 0.5 || 2.65 || 1.6 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 1.55 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 0.65 || 0.5 || 1.75 || 0.5 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 0.8 || 0 || 0.25 || 0.65 || 0.25 || 1 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.75 || 0.75 |} {{collapse bottom}} Takeaways: * From this sample, for RS, the most significant thing about this election was it being a political comeback. * The increase in Trump's vote among Latinos was also seen as significant, for example: **[https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/10/politics/trump-voter-shifts-nationwide/index.html &quot;A trend with the potential to remake the American political landscape is the huge shift in Latino voters toward Trump.&quot;] **[https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2024-11-12/donald-trumps-presidential-election-victory-in-6-charts &quot;As has been extensively noted, exit polls show that Latino men went from backing Biden by 23 points to backing Trump by 12 points, a stunning result.&quot;]) * It was seen as less historic that Trump was the second president to have non-consecutive terms than that he was the oldest. * When sources did mention the historicity of Trump's non-consecutive terms, they gave equal emphasis of the achievement with a discussion of Grover Cleveland. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::With all of those results in mind, I don't see any problems with due weight for the part regarding non-consecutive wins. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 13:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::I actually think the opposite having now done the review. Could you clarify why including the fact in the lead at all would be giving due weight, when it was not given such weight by RS? Surely the appropriate outcome here given would be to replace it with the characterization as a political comeback? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::&quot;...{{tq|replace it with the characterization as a political comeback}}&quot; I would support this. ''To me'' it is significant that he was the second in history to win non-consecutive terms and I find it quite interesting, but from the above it seems like there has been next to no coverage on it, and Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the weight given by [[WP:RS]], so unfortunately I don't see a reason to include this fact in the lead &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 21:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} By your own admission, Rollinginhisgrave, it was '''equal emphasis of the achievement with a discussion of Grover Cleveland'''. That suggests any mention of the non-consecutive wins would be an appropriate place to name the other guy. It's unreasonable to now assert otherwise and the way you did so sounds like a cheap cop-out. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 22:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Please assume good faith of me, I have no preferences beyond reflecting the weight of RS, and I 100% agree that the results above {{tq|suggests any mention of the non-consecutive wins would be an appropriate place to name the other guy}}; if included in the body, it should be represented as such. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 22:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::In that case, keep a watch for any other pieces that come up covering both men, and those can be assessed for further calculations on weight. It wouldn't surprise me to see more pop up, but only time will tell how many others will talk about their similarities and differences. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 01:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|SNUGGUMS}} It wouldn't surprise me either. When/if we get there, we can make those alterations. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == Russia was a hoax == Mueller’s results found nothing so that part is 100% INACCURATE. [[Special:Contributions/71.205.198.48|71.205.198.48]] ([[User talk:71.205.198.48|talk]]) 02:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Could you be more specific in what you're referring to / proposing? :...To me, this makes no sense &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 02:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::In our biographical article on Trump, we spend a lot of space on possible collusion by Trump's 2016 campaign with Russia interference, although ''[https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf Mueller Report]'', vol. I, p. 173: &quot;Ultimately, the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities.&quot; [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 07:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Regarding a lot of space, see the section [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256976843#Investigations Investigations]. Also, I looked in the subsection [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256976843#Mueller_investigation Mueller Investigation] and I couldn't find any mention of the ultimate result mentioned in my above message. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 15:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Do we say there was collusion? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::No, but the report not finding any evidence of collusion resulted in it being a political debacle for the Democrats, basically vindicated Trump's charges of a &quot;Russiagate witchhunt&quot;, and embarrassed the news media (notably the ''NYT'', who pumped the story day after day for years in a manner which is honestly comparable to the false stories about alleged WMDs before the Iraq War). What this article says is correct, but these circumstances should make us rethink its mention within the lead. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Another sensible point. The landscape has shifted beneath our feet here, and we haven't been responsive to the latest RS. A lot of the Russia stuff is legacy text from a time when RS were much more comfortable speculating about a link between Trump and the Kremlin. That's now largely stopped as more information has come out. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 10:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I also agree on this. The lead is too long, and ultimately the Russia-Muller angle petered out. Even if something was regularly on the news at the time, it probably shouldn't be in the lead if it had little lasting significance. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 11:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == Parents, children, and spouses links in the infobox &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Parents and children links in the infobox&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == Re: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256913704] This keeps getting added and removed with no resolution in sight. As I understand it, the rationale for omission has been that the parents are covered by the &quot;Trump family&quot; link. On the other hand, so are the children and they remain linked in the infobox. I'm thinking it's parents and children, or neither. In any case, let's settle this once and, hopefully, for all. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Looking at other U.S. politician's pages, specifically [[Barack Obama]] and [[George W. Bush]], they both have their parents listed, and then a separate section for &quot;relatives&quot; with [[Obama Family]] and [[Bush Family]] respectively being linked. The same applies to [[John F. Kennedy]] and [[Kamala Harris]] to name some other examples, so I would think we should follow suit on the Trump article &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 05:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :I was about to make almost the same post, except that &quot;Spouses&quot; is also thoroughly covered by the link, so I would say it's either include parents or remove children and spouses. :The current infobox is somewhat long already, but information like Children/Spouses/Parents is extremely common in biographies on Wikipedia, and usually considered &quot;pertinent information&quot;, so I can see reasoning in either direction. :I don't really care which direction is chosen, but for consistency with other articles, I'd lean more toward adding the parents. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 05:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :[[MOS:INFOBOX]] identifies the purpose of inboxes as allowing the reader to &quot;identify key facts at a glance&quot;. Given this, the link to [[Family of Donald Trump]] should be removed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Not necessarily disagreeing, but it appears to be an argument against the {{para|relatives}} parameter of {{tlx|Infobox officeholder}}. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Perhaps, I'm not sure how it is applied/intended. If it is intended to list notable individual relatives, then it's not an argument against. Probably best to assume that's the intent as it is the assumption that aligns with the guidelines. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Ok, so all of the cited precedents are just wrong, and I could live with that. &quot;The existence of bad stuff does not justify or excuse the addition or retention of other bad stuff of the same kind. Not all consistency is good consistency.&quot; On my user page since January 2018. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If we were to agree to remove these fields and lump it all into [[Trump Family]] would we then have to go to the other politician pages to also change this? I'm not opposed to this, it just seems like a lot of work for a change that seems like a matter of semantics &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 06:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::&lt;s&gt;Remove the fields of both parents/children? I don't think anyone's making the case for that. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; Apologies Mandruss, I don't seem to be carefully reading at the moment, I will take a break. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::We could, but we wouldn't have to. That kind of thing always turns little issues into gigantic issues, and other articles are not affected by decisions made at this one. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Wouldn't this same reasoning apply to the '''Awards''' section? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Avoid topic expansion. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I don't understand Mandruss' comment above, but yes I would say so. Could be worth asking for clarity on [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I'm thinking ahead to a consensus item about {{tq|Parents, children, and spouses links in the infobox}}, which would link to this discussion, which would contain stuff about other issues. Not good organization. Address separate topics separately. Start linking issues like that, and things quickly grow too large to deal with effectively. Usually not helpful to try to solve all the related problems at once. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The point being, ''if'' the same logic applies, then I don't think the reasoning is valid. There is no ''way'' the intended use of the '''Awards''' section is to list the &quot;most important&quot; awards, because choosing which are the &quot;most important&quot; would be very controversial on every article where the subject has more than a few awards (''let alone'' this article). ::::Of course, this is all speculation, and I could be wrong. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If you're not proposing we do something to the {{para|awards}} parameter in this discussion, disregard my comments &lt;del&gt;with my apologies&lt;/del&gt;. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC) Edited after reply 06:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Don't apologize; it was a very reasonable assumption [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:46, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Ok, I apologize for apologizing. Stricken. :) &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC) I've posted a question [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Can MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE be updated to reflect discussion here?|here]] at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes]]. Hopefully they can clarify the intent, as there seems to be some disagreement on the talk page. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC) == Financial == Here's some material that is in our article at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1257039271#Financial] :Financial :In April 2019, the House Oversight Committee issued subpoenas seeking financial details from Trump's banks, Deutsche Bank and Capital One, and his accounting firm, Mazars USA. Trump sued the banks, Mazars, and committee chair Elijah Cummings to prevent the disclosures.[506] In May, DC District Court judge Amit Mehta ruled that Mazars must comply with the subpoena,[507] and judge Edgardo Ramos of the Southern District Court of New York ruled that the banks must also comply.[508][509] Trump's attorneys appealed.[510] In September 2022, the committee and Trump agreed to a settlement about Mazars, and the accounting firm began turning over documents.[511] It doesn't appear to be worthwhile for our article, is just taking up space and maybe we should delete it. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 22:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|Bob K31416}} What weighting do RS give it? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::In the material there were 6 refs. The first was April 22, 2019, then 4 refs May 21–22 and finally one September 17. It was an episode of congress subpoenas for some of Trump's financial records. As we look at the episode today, there doesn't seem to be much of interest there. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Bob K31416}} Hope you don't mind, I may take a day or a few getting to this, but I'm not ignoring it and think it is worth evaluating in some depth. In the meantime, have a look in secondary sources 2022 and later and see if they discuss/give weight. Some examples of sources: [https://www.routledge.com/Criminology-on-Trump/Barak/p/book/9781032117904?srsltid=AfmBOooaph_5GHM50QvP2WpJjyNQM3yn31B03xd_Q7cVXpABv6tmPjtL Criminology on Trump] and [https://www.routledge.com/Indicting-the-45th-President-Boss-Trump-the-GOP-and-What-We-Can-Do-About-the-Threat-to-American-Democracy/Barak/p/book/9781032454771?srsltid=AfmBOoqRkFoBRGmy90Uc67LbTWnFauEFxNYhPKWE5JboHRkmj3WidBwg Indicting the 45th president Boss Trump, the GOP, and what we can do about the threat to American democracy]. Look for academic reviews of texts like these to contextualize them in academic literature; I find writing a Wikipedia article based on the reviews helpful to share such research with other editors and ensure NPOV. If I haven't responded in a few days, ping me. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 14:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == Lead cleanup move third para in lead to &quot;First Presidency&quot; section == I think the lead in general needs a very thorough cleanup, for example the entire third paragraph, starting with: &quot;In his first term, Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, funded expansion of the Mexico–United States border wall...&quot; Should probably just be moved to the &quot;First Presidency&quot; section... These are things he did while he was in office for his first term so I would think that is the section where they belong rather than contributing to the bloat in the lead. We have mention of racism and sexism in the second paragraph preceding this one, so I don't think it is appropriate to go into discussion of his policies that reflect this in the lead, but are better left to be considered in the article body per my brief understanding of [[MOS:LEAD]], [[MOS:INTRO]] and [[WP:LEADLENGTH]] &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 23:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :The lead absolutely requires a description of the policies he implemented as president. It doesn't &quot;contribute to bloat&quot; because it is one of the core features of his biography, this article, and the lead of any article on a U.S. president (or leader of any country). The details can be debated, but pretty much everything mentioned is important. If anything is bloat in the current lead, it is instead sentences such as &quot;He and his businesses have been involved in more than 4,000 legal actions, including six business bankruptcies&quot; (see [[#Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead|my proposal to remove this]] above), or perhaps the exact details on his indictments (which as commentators have noted [https://www.vox.com/donald-trump/383152/donald-trump-criminal-indictments-supreme-court-reelected] are now basically dead) and civil liabilities. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::That is a fair point - do you think it requires such an in-depth of a discussion about those policies though? The business and legal actions / bankruptcies I agree should be looked at, I think maybe cut down or removed and left for the body? These things happen all the time with businesses. I also think the exact details of his indictments could be removed and left for the body - I think mention of them should stay in the lead as a summary of the body, but as a whole I do not believe the specific details are lead appropriate and should be left for later on in the article &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 00:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::If we want to trim down that section of the lead, it should probably done to the list of things he did in response to COVID, or the part about Kim Jong Un and North Korea, since nothing substantial came of that. The parts besides those are too important to cut, in my opinion. I will note that there are other things that had real effects which are currently absent and could be added, such as the [[USMCA]] or [[Abraham Accords]]. There's also nothing about the [[Operation Warp Speed]] or the [[CARES Act]], which some editors have mentioned in [[#Can we add some positive things about his presidency to this article?|this discussion]] above. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 00:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::A &quot;discussion&quot; involving two editors that lasted 91 minutes and you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1257055949&amp;oldid=1257054027 claim that a consensus has appeared to emerge]? [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::No, I was not referring to this thread, but [[#Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead|this one]] above. I believe that a fairly clear consensus has emerged there. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::My apology, hadn't seen that one. Will respond there. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{tq|These things happen all the time with businesses}}: does the majority of reliable sources say so? Not to my knowledge, and we have many sources to the contrary. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == Biggest Political Comeback In US History == He staged the single biggest comeback in US Political History as quoted by Newsweek, CNN and others (they agreed greater than Nixon's in 1968) achieving the 2nd highest popular vote totals ever including a record amount of support from minority voters (Black, Hispanic, Jewish, Asian) than any other Republican in history. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 08:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :So what do you want us to say? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::State the facts, they are written directly below the Topic Header. You can expand upon it if you wish by including the final official numbers for minority and popular vote totals but those will be another week or so away. Regardless of the timeline, he's already achieved both facts stated above about the popular vote and the minority vote. He's also achieved 2 out of the top 3 largest popular vote totals ever recorded in American history. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 11:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::Do you have any RS that say this was the &quot;Biggest Political Comeback In US History&quot;? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::of course, I'm not sure how to link articles on here but if you Google &quot;Newsweek How Donald Trump Pulled Off the Greatest Comeback in Political History&quot; it will show the article written by Carlo Versano from 1 week ago. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 11:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::This would fail [[wp:v]] for your suggestion (clickbait titles are not RS). There is also here an issue of [[wp:undue]]. We can (at best say) &quot;according the Newsweek he pulled off the biggest political comeback in modern US history&quot;. I am unsure, that this improves our article. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Sure, another article you can Google (sorry about no links) is &quot;Daily Express 8 greatest political comebacks in history: from Trump and Farage to Churchill and Lenin.&quot; Again, the topic header stated US Political Comebacks. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Sure, what? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::CNN &quot;How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback&quot; article from November 6th also. There are many more articles from mainstream sources stating this again and again. That would be 3 direct, seperate resources reiterating the Topic Header. You could say, &quot;according to many sources, Donald Trump pulled off the biggest comeback in US political history.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Popular vote total is trivial since as the population grows, the number is higher and higher. A more accurate measure would be % of the popular vote which Trump did not earn a significant majority of when compared to prior presidents like Reagan or F.D.R. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 11:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::I wouldn't consider it trivial, there's never an infinite expansion of populations. Look at China, South Korea, Japan, etc. Many countries are shrinking in demographics. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 11:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::The 2024 population is estimated to be 24 million higher than the 2020 population which is higher than the 2016 population.... Pretty much every election cycle prior has had more eligible voters. Having a larger percentage of the country support someone is more important than simply having the most. If F.D.R. won today by the same margin he did in 1936, it would be almost 90 million people. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 11:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::By that logic it sounds like there should've been another 10+ million more total votes this election cycle than in 2020 but the fact is there wasn't. The truth is, Trump has won 2 of the top 3 total popular vote counts in history, and also defeated 2 Democratic candidates in a single election cycle. That's very relevant, and factual. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Not if there's lower turnout which is what happened this time around. He never ran against Biden in the general election so it isnt factual to say he defeated Biden. He only ran against and defeated Kamala Harris. Biden probably would've lost anyways but that's simply speculation, not fact. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::if he was running against him up until 2 months from the election and then dropped out because of a soft coup caused by his disastrous debate performance (and terrible polling numbers), that would be defeating a candidate, 2 to be exact. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::We aren't going to state this because this is not what reliable sources say. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Propaganda isn't 'reliable sources.' Biden continued his campaign after one of the worst debate performances in modern history and afterwards still continued to state he was continuing his campaign, until many Democratic donors, former and current House of Representatives and Senators demanded he quit. That would be a soft coup, especially withholding campaign finances to force him out. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 13:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::[https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/06/politics/how-donald-trump-won/index.html How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback], CNN. Here's an excerpt, &quot;Millions of Americans, including pivotal voters in Midwest and Sun Belt battlegrounds, cast ballots that clinched Trump’s historic comeback — one that promises to reshape American politics for the foreseeable future.&quot; ::::::::(To new editors, you can make a link like the above by writing: &lt;nowiki&gt;[https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/06/politics/how-donald-trump-won/index.html How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback] &lt;/nowiki&gt;, i.e. put the link, then space, then the title, all in a pair of brackets.) ::::::::[[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 13:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::This would broadly fall under [[WP:OR]] I would think, which is not allowed. At Wikipedia, we follow what [[WP:RS]] reports &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 21:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :My suggestion would be &quot;noted by media as one of the greatest political comebacks in American history.&quot; to the end of the sentence about the victory. I don't think it can go unmentioned, it is a very notable point in his political career, and also helps balance out the lead a little. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Wikipedia is not a headline [[Special:Contributions/68.57.163.100|68.57.163.100]] ([[User talk:68.57.163.100|talk]]) 03:56, 22 November 2024 (UTC) I am now out of this with a confirmed no to the suggested edit, as what we seem to have is [[wp:or]] based upon various sources that do not actually say it was the biggest comeback in US history. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Should be stated as &quot;one of the greatest&quot; anyway, stating it is &quot;the biggest&quot; outright would be fairly contentious. We typically apply this same nomenclature to great sportspersons e.g. [[Lionel Messi]]. It can't really go unmentioned entirely though, it is very widely sourced by [[WP:RSPSOURCES|major, reliable outlets]], and is a major point in his career. Lead reads as incomplete without it. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC) [[WP:NOTOPINION]]: unless you provide reliable sources supporting your opinions, you're wasting your and our time. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/06/trump-presidential-win-comeback/ Trump’s win is his greatest resurrection in a career of comebacks], Washington Post. &quot;Trump’s political revival, unparalleled in U.S. history, follows a long pattern in his life of seemingly insurmountable, self-inflicted catastrophes followed by shocking rebounds.&quot; :[https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly2818j7rko How Trump pulled off an incredible comeback], BBC : &quot;This is surely the most dramatic comeback in US political history.&quot; : [https://gazette.com/news/wex/greatest-comeback-here-s-how-trump-stacks-up-in-white-house-history/article_20127ec4-7bd2-55e8-bfe0-89fd54413e34.html Greatest comeback? Here’s how Trump stacks up in White House history], Denver Gazette. &quot;President-elect Donald Trump pulled off what many are saying is the greatest political comeback in American history by winning a second non-consecutive term despite a felony conviction and the stain of Jan. 6.&quot; :Also, please see the Wikipedia guideline, [[Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers]] and policy [[Wikipedia:Civility]]. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 16:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://nypost.com/2024/11/06/opinion/trump-the-colossus-comeback-king-of-american-politics/ Trump the ‘colossus’ is the comeback king of American politics] NY Post. &quot;We are in the midst of the greatest political comeback in American history — which follows, by eight years, the greatest political stunt in American history.&quot; :[https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2024/11/politics/trump-election-comeback-cnnphotos/ Donald Trump pulled off the ultimate comeback. See how we got here] CNN.&quot;Despite a felony conviction, two attempts on his life and rhetoric that would have surely sunk any other political campaign, he has completed the ultimate comeback.&quot; :[https://www.newsweek.com/trump-just-staged-biggest-political-comeback-american-history-opinion-1861260 Trump Just Staged the Biggest Political Comeback in American History] Newsweek.&quot;You are witnessing the greatest comeback in American political history. :The previous greatest comeback was by Richard Nixon, who lost his race for President in 1960, only to win decisively in 1968 and again in a 1972 landslide. After his resignation, he staged yet another extraordinary comeback, becoming the most influential former president America has ever had.&quot; :[https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4975713-donald-trump-greatest-comeback-since-lazarus/ Back from the dead: Donald Trump is America’s political Lazarus] The Hill. &quot;He is the greatest comeback politician in political history.&amp;nbsp;The closest thing to what Donald Trump has pulled off can be found in 1968 with Richard Nixon.&quot; :[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/how-donald-trump-pulled-off-the-greatest-comeback-in-political-history/ar-AA1tALHy How Donald Trump Pulled Off the Greatest Comeback in Political History] Newsweek.&quot;Donald J. Trump completed the greatest political comeback in modern U.S. history in the early hours of Wednesday, claiming enough electoral votes to defeat Vice President Kamala Harris and return to the White House for a second term.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 17:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{tq|Propaganda isn't 'reliable sources.}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADonald_Trump&amp;diff=1257142107&amp;oldid=1257142033 That]'s disqualifying right there. Sources Wikipedia accepts as reliable: [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources]]. Four of the five sources you presented here are opinion pieces which are generally not acceptable, and one of them is from January 2024 and referred to his win in the Iowa caucuses as the &quot;biggest political comeback in American history&quot;. CNN's ultimate comeback after having been &quot;temporarily render[ed] [] a pariah in mainstream Republican politics after Biden took office&quot; — I think that means final comeback, not single biggest. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::That something exists does not make it encyclopedic. Print media engages in sensationalism, esp. in headlines, to attract eyeballs and sell subscriptions. The Wikipedia is not that. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC) In a review of what reliable sources emphasised when discussing Trump's win in a thread above ([[Talk:Donald_Trump#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20241113115000-Statistic_and_Grover_Cleveland_in_the_lead|see here]]), one conclusion drawn was that {{tq|from this sample, for RS, the most significant thing about this election was it being a political comeback.}} I would have to look at the sources discussing the win more closely to assess how to write it (historic, biggest, attribute or not etc.), but it should be mentioned in the lede to give [[WP:WEIGHT|due weight]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :NO the, lead is a summary of important parts of our article, at best this would warrant one line in the body. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|Slatersteven}} could you elaborate? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yes (per [[wp:lead]]) &quot;In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. It is located at the beginning of the article, before the table of contents and the first heading. It is not a news-style lead or &quot;lede&quot; paragraph.&quot; it only goes in the lead if it is a major part of our article. It is hard to see how a throwaway headline can ever be spun out into a major section. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|Slatersteven}} I imagine you think including the fact about being the second president to win non-consecutive terms should be removed on the same basis. Do you agree? I am not opposed to merely including that {{tq|In the 2024 presidential election, Trump defeated the Democratic candidate, incumbent vice president Kamala Harris, winning the popular and electoral college votes.}} ::::I am not sure how to determine if his win should receive more context in the lede than that. If it should, it should be this fact, given that at this time, it is the one RS think is the most significant element of his win. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If it is not in the body it should, not be in the lead, however, I am gonna suggest the fact this is an unconvertible fact, means it has a place in the article. Where as it is debatable if the claim this was historic does. I said I was out of here with a firm no to including this, it remains a no. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::We don't have to describe it as &quot;historic&quot; etc, if that would be UNDUE. Simply &quot;multiple media outlets characterized his win as a political comeback&quot; could work. Whatever we choose &lt;ins&gt;if we choose to include something&lt;/ins&gt; it should a) be in the body, b) reflect the emphasis placed by RS, including reflecting to how RS describe it ''as a political comeback''. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I will also convert vote totals among minority voters (when they're fully counted and considered official) to percentages with a link to the official numbers to show his historic performance among minority voters for a republican candidate. This will add some balance to the sensationalized, prevailing media narrative of DJT's supporters being &quot;white supremacist, misogynistic, Nazi, etc, etc&quot; garbage they continue to spew forth while also showing a growing realignment of political bases within the parties. I can add this to whatever section it would fit best in to show a bit more fairness or balance to the article/page. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 09:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :IP, Yes it was indeed the biggest political comeback in US history. Would support a write-up of it, in the page. Afterall, it's only an opinion (also) that Trump is (for the moment, at least) considered the worst president in US history. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 13:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC) Users need to read [[wp:lead]], the lead is not there for emphasis it is a summary of our article. If it aint in the body it aint going in the lead, and one line can't be summarized with one line. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Then let's remove the election victory as a whole, and his being the second president elected to non-consecutive terms, as they're both only discussed in one line in the body... It's a highly notable point in his political career that is widely agreed upon by major, reliable sources. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::BY all means remove them if you wish. But two wrongs do not make a right.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::[[WP:LEAD]] doesn't even support your argument. &quot;As in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources.&quot; This is a major point in establishing his political notability, and widely supported by reliable, published sources. Many of the points in this lead are also concisely noted in the body, exactly how this article is meant to be written given the extent of his career. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Try the first line &quot;In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. &quot; and &quot; (latter on) &quot;Significant information should not appear in the lead, apart from basic facts, if it is not covered in the remainder of the article, although not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text.&quot;, This is not a &quot;basic fact&quot;. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::It is covered in the body, and should be expanded to include other sources. It is a basic fact if firmly agreed upon by reliable sources. [https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2024/11/politics/trump-election-comeback-cnnphotos/ CNN] [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-wins-2nd-term-historic-return-white/story?id=115358710 ABC] [https://apnews.com/article/election-day-trump-harris-white-house-83c8e246ab97f5b97be45cdc156af4e2 AP] [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/czxrnw5qrprt BBC] Keep in mind I'm not agreeing with the &quot;biggest&quot; wording. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 13:03, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{tq|It is a basic fact if firmly agreed upon by reliable sources}} see [[WP:VNOT|Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I'm not using that to argue its inclusion; it should be included because it's one of the most notable points in his political career, such to the point where it should even be in the lead. Their point was it was {{tq|not a basic fact}}, and thus should not be included, which is simply false given that many reliable sources disagree. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 13:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC) So again, a firm no. Time for an RFC? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Could we give this a bit more time before we escalate? I will have a go at working on the body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC) == FORUM == There has been a lot of [[WP:NOTFORUM]] vio going on here of late. Including a number of experienced editors. I'm curious: *Do these editors know they are violating policy? *If so, can they explain themselves please? *What, if anything, should be done about this? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :*I think what we maybe seeing is good faith efforts to deal with requests that are not policy compliant themselves. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Go [[WP:TROUT]] them or something &lt;/sarcasm&gt;. It’s incredibly unlikely anyone is going to be sanctioned by an admin for anything short of uncivil behavior. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 12:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::I must have missed when somebody was sanctioned for uncivil behavior without a trip to [[WP:AE]]. But I'm not looking for sanctions.{{pb}}I mean, we sometimes collapse NOTFORUM vios, but that's not really practical when it's interspersed with constructive non-vios every fourth comment. Even if I did that, I'd look like a self-appointed Talk Page Sheriff unless I had help from a few others. There's just too much of it going on, and I know better than to piss off ten experienced editors at the same time. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 14:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yea, that's kind of what I meant, I've never seen anyone sanctioned at AE for NOTFORUM (that wasn't a blatent civility issue as well). I digress though, you kind of highlighted why there's not much we can do. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 17:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Tell ya what. I'll start posting on user talk pages and see if that has any beneficial effect. I could use some help with that, by anybody who cares about keeping this page functional. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) I am moving discussion of [[WP:FORUM|FORUM]] and [[WP:BITING|BITING]] to this more relevant thread. Context is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump#c-104.230.247.132-20241113115500-Slatersteven-20241113114700 an IP apologizing] for not knowing how to link to sources. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :Appreciate the help with how to link articles Bob, thank you and sorry to others for not linking directly. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 13:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::[[WP:NOTFORUM]]: not a help desk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::It may be [[WP:NOTFORUM]] but its just a small tip in a relevant discussion to help the IP out, its nice to just be helpful sometimes and may encourage them to make an account and be an active participant in [[Wikipedia| the project]]; [[WP:NOBITING]] &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 21:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Best practice here would be to post a note on their [[WP:UTP|user talk page]] to avoiding BITING and FORUM. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 22:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::There was a discussion of this at the policy talk page in the section [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&amp;oldid=1257755875#4._Discussion_forums Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#4. Discussion forums]. It appears it is OK to make a brief, related, helpful technical suggestion on the article talk page for the benefit of various editors. Cheers, [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 14:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC) == Latter half of the opening paragraph == Does anybody have a &lt;u&gt;formal&lt;/u&gt; proposal for the second half of the opening paragraph? That's all the info relating to the 2024 election results? It's been ten days &amp; counting, so we need a stable version in place, between now &amp; the inauguration day. PS - For goodness sake, &lt;u&gt;don't&lt;/u&gt; add &quot;current&quot; or &quot;currently&quot; before (if included) &quot;president-elect&quot;, as it's a useless descriptive. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 04:50, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I wholeheartedly support forming a consensus to put an end to all the back-and-forth (stabilize). Since it would be a temporary consensus as you say, it wouldn't need a consensus list item, just an archived discussion (e.g., this one) that we could point to in a DO NOT CHANGE hidden comment. No opinion on content. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC) == Biography organization == Hi {{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}, I saw you moved the discussion of religion and family back to &quot;Early life and education&quot;. I don't think there are any good options here, as the article is not structed as a biography. The article to compare to would be [[Ronald Reagan]], as he is the most recent president that is a [[WP:FA|featured article]] (and helpfully he also had a prominent pre-political career). Some thoughts on reorganization to better meet this I'd like to hear your perspective on: * Break up the section [[Donald Trump#Wealth]], placing most into Business career where it is relevant. * Break up religion paragraph into the bits relevant to early life, and then a brief discussion in presidency discussing the relevance to his relationship to religion as president. * [[Ronald Reagan#Marriages and children]] is placed a lot more chronologically. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 18:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I'll get back to this tomorrow, too complicated for my addled brain today. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I'm generally not too fond of &quot;one size fits all&quot;, including {{tq|conform[ing] to others on Wikipedia, for example Donald Trump's two predecessors, Barack Obama and Joe Biden}}. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=763156990 This is the edit] that moved &quot;Personal life&quot; to the top of the body on February 1, 2017. I wasn't editing here at the time, briefly looked for discussions in the archive but nothing jumped out at me. I never questioned it because it made sense to me: family, wealth, tabloid and later media personality — it's all interwoven and difficult to separate into business/profession/political positions (whatever the subject is notable for) and personal life with spouse(s)/kids, hobbies, etc. Seven years later one editor shows up, questions it, and it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1257458585&amp;oldid=1257457258 gets fixed] a few minutes later (see &quot;MOS Layout&quot;, above). Good process — no dillydallying with time-consuming discussions. :[[MOS:SNO]] also says: {{tq|Because of the diversity of subjects it covers, Wikipedia has no general standard or guideline regarding the order of section headings within the body of an article.}} [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :As I said in the edit summary, Trump's personal details have been part of his public persona for more than 40 years and shouldn't relegated to the end of his bio like an afterthought. I moved them back to the top of the body, along with the &quot;Racial views&quot; and &quot;Misogyny/sexual misconduct&quot; sections that had been newly added to the &quot;Personal life&quot; section. I agree that these two sections also deal with views and conduct predating his first term as president and continued throughout his political career. The &quot;Public image&quot; section is gone, so there's no other logical place for these sections. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::I'm still thinking about the best way to address this. I will narrowly respond in two ways: ::*Racial views and misogyny could be folded under a s section 2 heading #Prejudice. ::*There is an ongoing discussion at [[Talk:Public image of Donald Trump#Article scope]] which is relevant and I hope you'll participate. It's responding to me cutting down the article 20% of its size ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Public_image_of_Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256508735 seen here]) based on the principles laid out at the top of the discussion. ::[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::Disagree, Space4Time3Continuum2x. I object to organizing this article based on your personal preferences. Please read all of [[MOS:SNO]]. Exceptions are given and this isn't one of them. Why didn't you contribute to the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_176#MOS_Layout MOS Layout] thread? -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've spent a bit of time thinking through my objection to commenting further at this time, and it has been resolved. Susan sums up my thoughts here. We can reopen to the MOS Layout thread before it's archived to discuss further or simply restore. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 21:00, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Already gone.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1257834791] &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:05, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::My mistake, thanks for the correction. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 21:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::{{u|Mandruss}}, is there a procedure to restore the MOS Layout thread? I'll assume that Space4Time3Continuum2x was occupied elsewhere and didn't get a chance to weigh in. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 13:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::No procedure, just do it (using copy-and-paste) or ask someone to do it. I did it. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{tq|based on your personal preferences}} — the layout predates my first edit of this article by more than a year. Considering the number of editors who have collaborated on this page, there have been astoundingly few objections to this particular feature (none, until now, that I recall). The full text of MOS:SNO is Wiki-vague, as usual: {{tq|Because of the diversity of subjects it covers, Wikipedia has no general standard or guideline regarding the order of section headings within the body of an article. The usual practice is to order body sections based on the precedent of similar articles. For exceptions, see Specialized layout below.}} No general standard or guideline vs. usual practice. I think you may have misunderstood the &quot;exceptions&quot;. They are types of articles where layouts are {{tq|generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow '''though occasional exceptions may apply'''.}} Bolding added by me, i.e., even for these exeptions, where editors are advised to &quot;attempt to follow the generally accepted standard&quot;, &quot;occasional exceptions may apply&quot;. And about a precedent you cited in &quot;MOS Layout&quot;: [[Barack Obama]] has an &quot;Early life and career&quot; section with &quot;Family and personal life&quot; following &quot;Education&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::By the time I saw the &quot;MOS Layout&quot; thread, it had already been closed saying Rolling &quot;fixed&quot; the flagged grave violation of — uh — usual practice within minutes. Bold edit, I challenged, needs to be discussed. I've already commented here, don't see any point in reopening &quot;MOS Layout&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Space4Time3Continuum2x}} :::::* [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=763156990 The edit] that moved up &quot;Personal life&quot; is from a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Atvica blocked] possible sockpuppet. :::::* Donald Trump is a human being like everybody else. What section is it that you want to front load? :::::* We have some leeway. Do you want to restore a §Public image section? :::::* We had an objection just [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258150213&amp;oldid=1258122470 yesterday] to starting with §Personal details. :::::* Right you are that MOS:SNO is vague. But it's an indication of why most Wikipedia biographies begin with §Early life. More examples: [[Louis XIV]], [[Elon Musk]], [[Mao Zedong]], [[Nelson Mandela]], [[Adolf Hitler]], [[Benito Mussolini]], [[Vladimir Lenin]], [[Charles de Gaulle]], [[Joe Biden]] and [[Ronald Reagan]]. [[George W. Bush]] and [[Barack Obama]] both have §Personal life higher than I'd like, and they both begin with §Early life and career. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::*I don't have anything to add here beyond that we still have a section for Public image: Assessments#Public. Content was moved out of #Public image for the reasons laid out in most depth at [[Talk:Public image of Donald Trump#Article scope]]; I earnestly hope you both could weigh in at that discussion as it needs more eyes and as you can see it affects this article. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I looked at the 10 or so edits the alleged sockpuppet made at this article. They all improved the formatting or fixed poor wording, e.g., replacing &quot;2000 presidential candidacy&quot; with &quot;2000 presidential campaign&quot;. The [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258150213&amp;oldid=1258122470 &quot;objection&quot;] replaced &quot;Personal details&quot; with &quot;Early and personal life&quot; — I can live with that. The editor did not object to the positioning of the material I restored to that section at the top of the body. I don't know what to make of {{tq|Trump is a human being}} and {{tq|front load}}. Are you accusing me of something? {{tq|both have §Personal life higher than I'd like}} — sounds like {{tq|personal preferences}} to me. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}? May we close the restored MOS Layout thread? -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::&lt;small&gt;{{ping|Rollinginhisgrave}} No, there's no Public image section, only a Public subsection of Assessment. I won't be contributing to your thread on Article scope which discussed a narrow issue (orange skin). I am spread too thin over several threads. Thank you. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; ::::{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}, nobody is accusing you of anything. ::::*Your personal preferences show (&quot;I can live with that&quot;) same as me (I don't plan to edit [[Barack Obama]] or [[George W. Bush]] to match my prefs.). ::::*May we close the restored MOS Layout thread? ::::*To answer your question, Trump is just a man, and he merits a biography that's no different from everybody else's. (Here's the dictionary definition of [https://www.dictionary.com/browse/front-load front load].) I'm just asking you, what sections do you want to come early? Do you want to add a §Public image section? -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 18:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've changed Assessment#Public to Assessment#Public image in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1258448886 this diff]. &lt;small&gt;{{u|SusanLesch}} It's on me cutting 80% of the article, orange skin is just an example. No fuss if you are spread too thin, what you have been able to spare is appreciated.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}, I removed the Religion section because it was word for word the same as a paragraph in Early life. If Religion is one of the sections you want front-loaded then I'll move the first one down (it has all the original refs). I asked for the MOS Layout thread to be archived. Can you please answer which sections you want to appear at the top? Right now we look bad with &quot;Early and personal life: Early life, education, family&quot; which is empty and repetitive. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 19:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}} at this time, we have two editors in favor of the rearranged section order and one against. This is a very very weak majority, especially in light of the long-standing page consensus. How would you like us to proceed? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC) == Proposal to rename [[Racial views of Donald Trump]] == There is currently a proposal to rename [[Racial views of Trump]] at {{slink|Talk:Racial views of Donald Trump|Changing the title|nopage=y}}. Editors here are invited to participate: this will impact the section heading &quot;Racial views&quot; in this article per [[WP:SUMMARY|summary style]] [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC) == Recommended biography == Can anyone here recommend a Trump biography? My plan is to read one good biography. Looking at [[Bibliography_of_Donald_Trump#About_the_books_about_Trump|the bibliography]], maybe ''[[What Were We Thinking]]'', or one by Philip Rucker and Carol Leonnig, Jonathan Karl, Bob Woodward, Jennifer Mercieca, Maggie Haberman, Fred Trump III, ? Other than a historical bias learned from my mother, I have no horse in this race, and am trying to keep an open mind. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 14:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :See [[WP:NOTFORUM]] [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 17:05, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::Pardon me, [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]]. I daresay this article comes up short and I'm offering to help. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump#Books Book sources] are an impoverished list given the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bibliography_of_Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1257626144#About_Trump number of books about the subject]. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:12, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::Taking my marbles and going home. I settled on Mr. Lozada's ''[[What Were We Thinking]]''. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::&lt;s&gt;That's fine, and we appreciate your efforts, but a Wikipedia talk page just isn't the place for this&lt;/s&gt; [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 17:34, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|Farkle Griffen}} I think Susan was inquiring as to the quality (reliable, comprehensive) of high-quality sourcing on the subject for the purposes of editing, which is an important function of talk pages. Perhaps Susan could have rewritten to be clearer as to her intent, but in cases where intent is unclear to us, it's best to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] (which can involve asking an editor for clarification of they believe their comment is on topic). ::::{{u|SusanLesch}} I don't think ''[[What Were We Thinking]]'' is a biography in the strictest sense. From my similarly limited familiarity with sourcing on the subject, it seems like biography, particularly pre-presidency, will have to be sourced primarily to biographies 2017 and before such as ''[[Trump Revealed]]''. ::::For a retrospective assessment of the Trump presidency and afterwards, which is necessary for assessing what reliable sources put emphasis on, the best sources I have seen aren't necessarily exclusively about Trump, but have a chapter on broad-strokes of his presidency. For domestic policy for example, see ''[https://www.routledge.com/The-Presidency-and-Domestic-Policy-Comparing-Leadership-Styles-FDR-to-Biden/Genovese-Belt-Lammers/p/book/9780367508746? The Presidency and Domestic Policy: Comparing Leadership Styles, FDR to Biden]''. I'm interested to read ''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv201xj05 The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: A First Historical Assessment]'', but reading reviews on such a book will be particularly important: as I &lt;del&gt;read them&lt;/del&gt;&lt;ins&gt;read them (books)&lt;/ins&gt; I'll create stubs for them to share findings with other editors like I have with ''[[Cocoa (book)|Cocoa]]'' and ''[[Unsavory Truth]]''. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:01, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:09, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::::That's a fair point. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 20:11, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{u|Farkle Griffen}}, sorry for the misunderstanding. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Questions for you, [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]]. First, the book sources seemed to be slim pickings given the number of books about Trump. I appreciate the work that editors have done using Kranish &amp; Fisher, which does appear to have been helpful. I am comfortable with Leonnig, Woodward, Haberman, and am interested in [[Jennifer Mercieca]] because it looks like she studied Trump's speech patterns. Decided on Lozada because, for one thing, I don't wish to become a scholar of Trump. Lozada is a Pulitzer-winner who was able to sort through the 150 or more books about Trump. I could be mistaken easily, and it would help to have a guide. Don't you agree his perspective would be useful? Is the Zelizer book you mention here a collection of essays/papers? Another good way to get a birds eye view. Sorry I can't invest the time in something like ''The Presidency and Domestic Policy''. One other criterion: if any of the bibliography list is available free on the Internet Archive that would be a selling point. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::{{u|SusanLesch}} The book sources are certainly slim. I expanded the use of Kranish &amp; Fisher a few days ago as a proof of concept in replacing news articles with books, but I will revise. If we're covering the presidency, there's two elements of sources to prioritise: retrospective and [[WP:SCHOLARSHIP|academic]]. ::::::::*[[Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America|Haberman]] is interesting, I haven't read about it. Might be the best for biographical details. ::::::::*Mercieca is interesting as well; we're a few years out so might be good to read recent reviews. ::::::::*[[What Were We Thinking|Lozada]] would be useful to the page, but I think it serves a different purpose to what you identified in your first two sentences. ::::::::*Yes, Zelizer is a collection of essays; I'm most looking forward to any introductory material which attempts to synthesise. ::::::::*''The Presidency and Domestic Policy'' would probably actually be the easiest, since it is one chapter which is relevant (the one on Trump). ::::::::I'm sc(k)eptical much will be available on the Internet Archive; it's been cut down mercilessly recently. If you need access to a source, email me. Hopefully I'll be able to construct an annotated source list over the next few weeks. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 07:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Thank you! I'm leaning to Haberman because you thought it sounds interesting. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 13:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}}P.S. Suggest we don't underestimate the Internet Archive. I went through the first [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_Donald_Trump#About_Trump half of the bibliography] and found these. Most of the others are available only to persons with print disabilities. *Never Enough: Donald Trump and the Pursuit of Success *The case against Trump *Where's Trump? Find Donald Trump in his race to the White House *Man Enough? Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, and the Politics of Presidential Masculinity *The Little Book of Trumpisms *Trump: A Graphic Biography *If Only They Didn't Speak English *Big Agenda: President Trump's Plan to Save America *Choosing Donald Trump: God, Anger, Hope, and Why Christian Conservatives Supported Him *In America: Tales from Trump Country *Trump: Anatomy of a Monstrosity *Trump This! The Life and Times of Donald Trump, An Unauthorized Biography -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Thanks for doing this, very helpful. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::Unfortunately our luck ran out after the oldest 50 books. The rest of the list found only: ::*in Arabic only: Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House ::*audio: Donald Trump v. The United States ::So overall I tend to agree with you about the Internet Archive's utility for this project. Maybe something will help. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 00:40, 18 November 2024 (UTC) == Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8 == {{atop|This is involved closure, which is permitted when consensus is sufficiently clear.{{pb}}Consensus to cancel [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 8. Currently 8&amp;ndash;3 Support and it would take a dramatic trend reversal to change the outcome. Closure subject to challenge by reversion, as always. Barring that...{{pb}}Eligible for manual archival after this time tomorrow, and I will change the consensus list. The article should not be changed until then. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC)}} Item 8 requires including that &quot;Trump was the first U.S. President without prior military or government service&quot; in the lead. A LOT has happened since 2016 (when this item was added) that deserves mention in the lead, and in proportion, this detail is very minor. Currently this random trivia takes up about as much space the entire mention of Covid-19. In the same vein as my previous post, we need to start making room in the lead for the soon-to-come paragraph about his 2nd term. Including minor trivia like this is not the precedent that should be set. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 00:37, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' per proposer. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Comment''' The lede should reflect the emphasis the body places. Do you think the coverage in the lede misrepresents this emphasis? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:Continuing with the example I gave, this only seems to be mentioned for one sentence in the body, and only in passing, whereas Covid-19 takes up several sections, and has a dedicated main article. *:Similarly with nearly every other one-sentence fact currently mentioned in the lead. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::The question of weight emphasis is not on the sentence, but what the sentence is summarizing. Here it is [[Donald Trump#Election to the presidency]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:11, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::Are you suggesting one body sentence provides sufficient weight for inclusion in the lead? If so, you might want to re-think that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:17, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::The questions we are asking are a) does #Election to the presidency receive enough emphasis to be covered in the lede, b) if so, how can we best summarize it while giving appropriate emphasis? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::Are they? I thought the question here is: &quot;Should current consensus 8 be canceled?&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::::Yes, as if the answer to those questions creates something similar to consensus 8, the answer is no, if it doesn't, the answer is yes. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:44, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::Obviously I lack the intelligence to comprehend that comment, but I'm guessing you're unhelpfully mixing issues that could be addressed separately, expanding scope, overcomplicating, or something. I responded to the question in the section heading and that was enough for me. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::::::If my comments are incomprehensible that reflects on my communication skills and perhaps on my thoughts being incoherent. I want to make sure when we decide what goes in the lede, we are going beyond what editors personally think is significant. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::As to the six words in question, it looks to me that error was made in 2016, and by your own reasoning we should correct it by removal. There is not enough in the body to justify inclusion in the lead, and that inclusion was the result of the &quot;editorial judgment&quot; dysfunction we've talked about elsewhere. What's the problem? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::Sure, I get that the dysfunction continues in this very thread, but that won't be changed quickly if ever. At least it's looking like the end result will be the correct one, even if the means for getting there was wrong. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::As I note below, I agree. This text does not appear to meet the standards for inclusion so should be removed. Your addendum is interesting. I think it can be changed, at least among the regulars, even if it requires me being a pain. I would have just commented &quot;'''Support''': does not reflect emphasis placed in body&quot; if I thought having editors justify their support beyond editorial judgement wouldn't pressure them to improve their argumentative rigor in the future. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::::{{tq|I think it can be changed, at least among the regulars, even if it requires me being a pain.}} One can dream. Being a much larger meta issue, it should probably be a separate discussion. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::I'd say the very next sentence is handling that well enough. *:::His lack of military experience doesn't seem to be the focus of that section, or the main article linked. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::Agreed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC) * '''Support''' does not seem like something of real significance, certainly not enough for the lead &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|...Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' It seemed important at the time but the lede now has far too many more important things to cover and not much space to do it in.[[User:LM2000|LM2000]] ([[User talk:LM2000|talk]]) 02:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' Agree that it is not nearly as important now as it was eight years ago. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 02:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' as (as far as I can tell) its still true, and in fact will still be true when he next takes office, thus is still current and relevant. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC) **I'm not opposed to its inclusion, provided some expansion in the body, but could you expand on how it follows from the first part of your sentence that this is still relevant? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ***Because it still remains the case that even in his second term he will still never have served in the military. Given how much false imagery of him there is in 8unifiorm it might well be something people will be looking for, his military service. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ****I think the stronger framing for inclusion is around his status/image as an &quot;outsider&quot; politician. Other comments above effectively respond to whether &quot;it still remains the case&quot; is a sufficient justification for retention. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:Are you suggesting being true is enough to justify being in the lead? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 16:05, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::No, I am saying that is still, remains true, and is still as important as it was 8 years ago. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::So, eliminating the part of your argument that applies equally to hundreds of other things omitted from the lead, it's based entirely on your personal opinion of importance. You think that might be influenced by your natural human biases? We all have them, you know. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::No its based on nothing has changed since we added it. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 19:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::Nothing except the passage of eight years during which more stuff was added to the lead, his re-election which means much more stuff will be added to the lead in the coming four years, and the growing consensus that the lead has been too long for some time. I wouldn't call that &quot;nothing&quot;. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::I mean technically, in his second term he will have served in government prior to election... as the president in 2016 &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|...Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support'''. Good choice for preemptive shortening of the lead. Time to look for more of these. Please include the statement somewhere else in the article. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 13:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' - Trump is an important figure not for the many things he did in office, but for how he has broadly affected the politics of the United States. That he was the first real 'celebrity president' is a necessary piece of the story. What should be cut back to make the lead shorter is the details of his first presidency: individual acts and executive orders he signed or agreements he withdrew the US from isn't really the point of the biography: this could be summed up in words to the effect of &quot;Trump's foreign policy was characterized as unpredictable&quot;, &quot;Trump attempted to lower legal and illegal immigration&quot;, etc. Getting caught up in individual details like that misses the woods for the trees: zooming in on microcosms of larger policy patterns (such as the wall, travel ban and family separations to show immigration policy, or the trade war, denuclearisation and treaty withdrawals to show his foreign policy) makes the lead too long and doesn't really present anything important. Trump is responsible for a broad political realignment and societal change, which is what we should focus on in the lead: not &quot;he signed the Tax Cuts &amp; Jobs Act&quot; or &quot;he built The Wall&quot;. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 17:13, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:Ideally, we should just have one paragraph for both presidencies by 2029, summing up What Happened in broad strokes. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 17:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:This seems like a large change in focus compared to what the consensus has become over the years. I think that needs to be a separate discussion. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 19:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::Yes, but it isn't a proposal. What it is are the reasons why I think that the item above is the wrong thing to scrap out of a paragraph which has more obviously cuttable things. That Trump was the most inexperienced man ever to become president is a key part of his bio, far more so than the individual policies he pushed in term one that I'd gun for to reduce the lead's length. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 20:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::Perhaps you can make a separate draft article for the lead to clarify feasibility? Because if I'm understanding you correctly, that seems like it would force us to minimize important detail, and lead to constant, massive edit wars over how to present his story. This article especially. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 20:21, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::I've banged out a quick example here. Don't nitpick it: it's not a proposal, but an illustration of the general direction I think the article should take. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 18:30, 19 November 2024 (UTC){{collapsetop|Example lead}} {{Infobox officeholder| name = Donald Trump| image = President-elect Donald Trump, Wednesday, November 13, 2024, on the South Portico of the White House (cropped).jpg&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE the picture without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 1. --&gt;| alt = Official White House presidential portrait. Head shot of Trump smiling in front of the U.S. flag, wearing a dark blue suit jacket with American flag lapel pin, white shirt, and light blue necktie. | caption = Trump in 2024| office = 45th &amp; 47th [[President of the United States]]| vicepresident1 = [[Mike Pence]]| term_start1 = January 20, 2017| term_end1 = January 20, 2021| predecessor1 = [[Barack Obama]]| successor1 = Joe Biden| term_start = January 20, 2025| term_end = January 20, 2029| vicepresident = [[JD Vance]] | predecessor = [[Joe Biden]]}} '''Donald John Trump''' (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th and 47th [[president of the United States]] from 2017 to 2021 and from 2025 to 2029.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 50. --&gt; Trump graduated with a [[bachelor's degree]] in economics from the [[University of Pennsylvania]] in 1968. After becoming president of the family real estate business in 1971, he renamed it [[the Trump Organization]]. After a series of bankruptcies in the 1990s, [[#Side ventures|he launched side ventures]], mostly licensing the Trump name. From 2004 to 2015, he produced and hosted the [[reality television]] series ''[[The Apprentice (American TV series)|The Apprentice]]''. In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] and became the [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican Party]]'s nominee, leading to the creation of [[Trumpism]]. Trump won the [[2016 United States presidential election|2016 presidential election]] despite losing the popular vote, becoming the first U.S. president without prior military or government service.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding 6 words without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 8. --&gt; His election and policies [[Protests against Donald Trump|sparked numerous protests]]&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding 7 words without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 20. --&gt;. He lost re-election in [[2020 United States presidential election|2020]] but falsely claimed widespread electoral fraud, [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|attempted to overturn the results]], and facilitated the [[January 6 United States Capitol attack|January 6 Capitol attack]]. He ran again in [[2024 United States presidential election|2024]] and won both the electoral and popular vote, making him one of two U.S. presidents elected to serve non-consecutive terms.{{efn|The other being [[Grover Cleveland]], in [[1884 United States presidential election|1884]] and [[1892 United States presidential election|1892]].}} As president, he attempted to reduce the number of refugees and illegal† immigrants entering the U.S., had a foreign policy which was characterized as unpredictable and inconsistent, appointed three† Supreme Court justices, reacted slowly to the [[COVID-19 pandemic in the United States|COVID-19 pandemic]], and pursued an aggressive trade policy.† Many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, racist, and misogynistic.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus, see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], items 30 and 51. --&gt; He [[#Promotion of conspiracy theories|promoted conspiracy theories]] and [[#False or misleading statements|made many false and misleading statements]] during his campaigns and presidencies, to a degree unprecedented in American politics.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], items 49 and 53. --&gt; In 2024, [[Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York|he was found guilty of falsifying business records]],{{efn|Related to [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|his hush money payment]] to adult film actress [[Stormy Daniels]]}} becoming the first U.S. president convicted of a felony.{{efn|He faced more felony indictments related to [[FBI investigation into Donald Trump's handling of government documents|his mishandling of classified documents]] and interference in the 2020 election.}} He was the only U.S. president to be impeached twice†; the Senate acquitted him in both† cases.{{efn|[[First impeachment of Donald Trump|In 2019]] for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress, and [[Second impeachment of Donald Trump|in 2021]] for incitement of insurrection.}} [[Historical rankings of presidents of the United States|Scholars and historians rank Trump]] as one of the worst presidents in American history.†&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 54. --&gt; {{nbsp}} :{{small|†Subject to change following second term}} {{Notelist-talk}} {{collapsebottom}} *:::::How did this thread morph from a proposal to cancel #8 to a discussion of the general direction the article should take? This kind of scope expansion is rarely helpful. I would've suggested: &quot;Oppose. {{tq|The item above is the wrong thing to scrap out of a paragraph which has more obviously cuttable things.}}&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:03, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::It's usually helpful to back up opinions with reasons for why you think that way. It's deliberately collapsed so it doesn't get in the way of others. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 19:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' per nom. Need to start trimming the lead in prepartion to cover his second term. [[User:Spy-cicle|&lt;span style='color: 4019FF;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;&amp;nbsp;Spy-cicle💥&amp;nbsp;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Spy-cicle#top|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style='color: #1e1e1e;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;'''''Talk'''''?&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:43, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *I have no strong opinion on this one. But the mention of protests after his first election 100% is UNDUE in the lead. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:08, 19 November 2024 (UTC) **Agree on protests. They didn't lead anywhere.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 00:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ***So propose that separately. You're off topic here. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:15, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *:I am going to go ahead and say '''Oppose''' for removal of this one. Trump having no prior political experience and being an outsider is central to his brand and movement. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::a) Should him being an outsider also be included in the lede? :::b) [[MOS:LEAD]] says the lede should function as a summary of the body, including reflecting the importance placed on information. This prevents the lead developing separately from the body. Do you think the inclusion of this fact meets this? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Comment''' - It occurs to me that this sentence is not that different from much of the content already removed from the lead ''without objection''. The same arguments about &quot;still important&quot;, &quot;central&quot;, etc., could have been made about a lot of that (and have been in the past). What's different about this one? It's protected by a consensus that precludes BOLD removal. Without that consensus, I think this would have been removed ''without objection''. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *{{Strikethrough|'''Oppose'''. I agree with Tim and R. G. Checkers. Trump posturing himself as an opponent of the Washington elite and career politicians (no matter how disingenuous that actually is) is how he has made it this far as a politician and is relevant to his ongoing re-alignment of U.S. politics along right-wing populist lines. If you need proof, just look at how he's right now filling his cabinet with others who posture as &quot;outsiders&quot; and have no experience. This statement is the easiest way to get this across in the lead.}} — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 20:38, 20 November 2024 (UTC) **The sentence doesn't convey all this, it implies he's incompetent or merely unusual. The sentence should say what you're trying to communicate, e.g. &quot;Key to Trump's appeal is his image as a political outsider.&quot; Moreover, him having an image of an outsider is not mentioned in the body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:47, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ***Actually, your argument convinces me. I change my !vote to '''Support''' removal, as I think the &quot;political outsider&quot; angle is sufficiently conveyed by other parts of the lead (especially identifying his movement as &quot;right-wing populist&quot; in nature). — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ****{{small|Omg, someone was swayed by discussion. Somebody frame that and hang it on the wall! &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC)}} {{abot}} === Process question === We can cancel item 8, or we can supersede it with a new item 68. The difference is that cancellation would merely return the situation to normal BRD process (as if consensus 8 had never existed), while supersession would preclude this lead content without another consensus. Which do we want? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC) To my mind, we could cancel until there are repeated BOLD attempts to re-add this, thereby maybe justifying a superseding consensus. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:15, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Reverting consensus 20 == Bringing two comments down from [[Talk:Donald Trump#Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8]] to a new thread. They are addressing the sentence {{tq|His election and policies sparked numerous protests}} in the lede. I have no strong opinion on this one. But the mention of protests after his first election 100% is UNDUE in the lead. R. G. Checkers talk 00:08, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :Agree on protests. They didn't lead anywhere.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :'''Support''' The lead in general needs to be trimmed, I think we should focus on the information with the most [[WP:RS]] coverage for the lead. I am not sure how we will determine what constitutes as &quot;enough RS coverage for the lead,&quot; perhaps we will need another topic for this. &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::Some of us think it should be &quot;enough RS coverage for the body&quot; and &quot;enough body coverage for the lead&quot;. Body comes first. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::I think that would be a good determining factor. I suppose it would then be down to &quot;What constitutes enough body coverage for the lead?&quot; But I am again getting off topic and will leave this for another discussion &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The question is not of volume, but of quality. We need retrospective coverage that puts it into the context of his life/presidency to determine emphasis. And from this, as {{noping|Mandruss}} notes, lead follows body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' - Clearly UNDUE and maybe even RECENTISM that should have never been in the lead in the first place, and certainly not now. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC) **Could you expand on why you understand this fact is given [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]]? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:59, 19 November 2024 (UTC) **:Protests happen for every president. Just because the protest had a more people come does not mean it needs to be I in the lead. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC) **::{{tq|Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources.}} What does your comment have to do with UNDUE? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 21:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC) **:::Look at this sentence instead: {{green|Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the''' depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement''', the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery}} [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC) **::::An article can discuss information in great depth, in a lot of text etc while still maintaining [[WP:NPOV|a neutral point of view]]. The way it can do that is by {{tq|fairly represent[ing] all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources}}. You need to determine the emphasis of reliable sources first: looking at information and thinking &quot;that's a lot of detail [for something like this or otherwise]&quot; is insufficient for determining if it is DUE. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 09:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support removal''' Needs to be significant trimming in the lead to fit in the 2nd term info. The protests against him are less important to cover relative to other infomation in the lead. [[User:Spy-cicle|&lt;span style='color: 4019FF;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;&amp;nbsp;Spy-cicle💥&amp;nbsp;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Spy-cicle#top|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style='color: #1e1e1e;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;'''''Talk'''''?&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 06:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose''', as I think it's fair to say his latest election has also led to protests. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:54, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. &quot;Other stuff may happen that we may want to include&quot; isn't a rationale for removing. The protests included the largest single-day protest in U.S. history at the time (it's been surpassed by the George Floyd protests in 2020). AFAIK, no other president's election has resulted in protests, especially not with the protesters far outnumbering the spectators at the inauguration. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:01, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *:It is mentioned briefly in the body. This is not defining of trump himself. We don't need room for things that are going to happen we need room for things that ''already have happened''. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Question''' What has changed to constitute this change? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 04:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *:We (with Farkle Griffen doing most of the heavy lifting) are finally taking on serious lead reduction, essentially raising the DUE bar for the lead. The lead is down 40% from two weeks ago. Under discussion is whether this item still clears the bar. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' the poor [[pussyhat]]s didn't accomplish anything. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support'''. A little bit below the threshold of importance for inclusion in the lead. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 20:45, 20 November 2024 (UTC) * '''Support''', not particularly notable. [[User:Irruptive Creditor|Irruptive Creditor]] ([[User talk:Irruptive Creditor|talk]]) 08:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == PEIS revisited, yet again == According to my experimentation, the addition of ~12 typical-sized citations would cause the article to exceed the system-imposed [[WP:PEIS]] limit. When that happens, templates near the bottom of the article start breaking with an error message. Otherwise, the article is fine; nobody is even aware there's a problem unless they scroll down there and see the message. Still, it's a problem worth addressing and I think it's better to be proactive than reactive about this. Possible solutions: *Reduce [[WP:OVERCITE]]. *Remove content, with the associated citations. *This was a recurring problem in the past (see archive). Eventually, someone removed one or more navboxes at the bottom, which freed up a huge amount of PEIS. I don't know if there is more potential reduction in that area. Other kinds of templates will also contribute to PEIS, but I don't know how much without looking into it more. Anyway, the PEIS limit would appear to impose an arbitrary upper limit on article size, assuming the number of citations is roughly proportional to article size&amp;mdash;and this article is very close to that limit. Maybe that's not all bad? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:35, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :Lots of overciting, been meaning to tackle it but it's a lot of reading. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :Did the change to short footnotes cause any part of this? If so I'm sorry. I will try to lessen overcites when I run across them. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 19:48, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::I see a total of six footnotes. Not a significant contribution to the problem. Thanks for asking. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::Oh boy. Page size said 15672 words today, which is over the top limit at [[WP:SPLIT]]. I have never seen an article fail but golly, I'm retracting my proposal to rewrite Early life without prejudice. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I'm possibly looking in the next weeks at proposing we apply [[User:Trainsandotherthings/The Earth Test|The Earth Test]], which should be appropriate given the extensive use of [[Template:Main]]. Does anyone here have initial rejections of this as my activities are lining up with that direction. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Looks like an arbitrary limit, and Wikipedia hates arbitrary limits. Why not get us as far as possible into summary style and then see where we are? That might well be all we need in the area of article reduction. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Update: Edits have increased the ~12 to ~37. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Merge the offices in Trump's infobox? &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;I think that we should merge the offices in Trump's infobox. What do y'all think?&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == Here is a new infobox I've designed in my [[User:WorldMappings/sandbox|user sandbox]]. {{cot|Proposed infobox. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)}} {{Infobox officeholder | image = Donald Trump official portrait.jpg&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE the picture without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 1. --&gt; | alt = Official White House presidential portrait. Headshot of Trump smiling in front of the U.S. flag, wearing a dark blue suit jacket with American flag lapel pin, white shirt, and light blue necktie. | caption = Official portrait, 2017 | order = 45th &amp; 47th&lt;!-- DO NOT ADD A LINK. Please discuss any proposal on the talk page first. Most recent discussion at [[Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 65#Link-ifying &quot;45th&quot; in the Infobox?]] had a weak consensus to keep the status-quo (no link). --&gt; | office = President of the United States | vicepresident = [[JD Vance]] (elect) | term_start = January 20, 2025 | succeeding = [[Joe Biden]] | vicepresident1 = [[Mike Pence]] | term_start1 = January 20, 2017 | term_end1 = January 20, 2021 | predecessor1 = [[Barack Obama]] | successor1 = Joe Biden | birth_name = Donald John Trump | birth_date = {{Birth date and age|1946|6|14}} | birth_place = [[Queens]], New York City, U.S.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE (or add to) this location without prior consensus; please see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 2. --&gt; | party = [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] (1987–1999, 2009–2011, 2012–present) | otherparty = {{plainlist}} * [[Reform Party of the United States of America|Reform]] (1999–2001) * [[Democratic Party (United States)|Democratic]] (2001–2009) * [[Independent politician|Independent]] (2011–2012) {{endplainlist}} | spouse = {{plainlist}} * {{marriage|[[Ivana Zelníčková]]|April 9, 1977|December 11, 1990|end=divorced}} * {{marriage|[[Marla Maples]]|December 20, 1993|June 8, 1999|end=divorced}} * {{marriage|[[Melania Knauss]]|January 22, 2005}} {{endplainlist}} | children = {{flatlist| * [[Donald Jr.]] * [[Ivanka Trump|Ivanka]] * [[Eric Trump|Eric]] * [[Tiffany Trump|Tiffany]] * [[Barron Trump|Barron]] }} | mother = [[Mary Anne Trump]] | father = [[Fred Trump]] | relatives = [[Trump family]] | awards = [[List of awards and honors received by Donald Trump|Full list]] | alma_mater = [[University of Pennsylvania]] ([[Bachelor of Science|BS]])&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE this college or diploma without prior consensus, see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 63. --&gt; | net_worth = &lt;!-- Keep empty, per [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 47. --&gt; | occupation = {{hlist|[[Political career of Donald Trump|Politician]]|[[Business career of Donald Trump|businessman]]|[[Media career of Donald Trump|media personality]]}} | signature = Donald Trump (Presidential signature).svg | signature_alt = Donald J. Trump stylized autograph, in ink | website = {{#invoke:list|unbulleted|{{URL|https://www.donaldjtrump.com|Campaign website}}|{{URL|https://www.trumplibrary.gov/|Presidential library}}|{{URL|https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/|White House archives}}}} | module = {{Listen|pos=center|embed=yes|filename=Donald Trump speaks on declaration of Covid-19 as a Global Pandemic by the World Health Organization.ogg|title=Donald Trump's voice|type=speech|description=Donald Trump speaks on the declaration of [[COVID-19 pandemic|COVID-19 as a global pandemic]] by the [[World Health Organization]].&lt;br /&gt;Recorded March 11, 2020}} }} {{cob}} [[User:WorldMappings|WorldMappings]] ([[User talk:WorldMappings|talk]]) 21:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC) == Proposal to add brief description of Trumpism in lead == Should the lead contain a brief description of [[Trumpism]], which it currently mentions without further explanation? I added one, but Farkle Griffin [[Special:Diff/1258652829|reverted]] me, citing length concerns. I agree with the recent lead cuts, but the statement &quot;Trump created Trumpism&quot; without further description is meaningless, and I think it benefits readers to briefly explain what he stands for politically without requiring them to click through and read the lead of the other article. Here is a brief, 12-word proposal: &quot;In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement, {{tq|characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, [[protectionism]], and loyalty to himself.}}&quot; The specifics are up for debate. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 21:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :I completely disagree with this proposal. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 15:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Neither support nor oppose here, but what are your thoughts on simply including it in a footnote? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 22:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::I think it's important enough to state outside of a footnote. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 22:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :Maybe something along these lines? :&quot;In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]], during which he promoted [[nationalism]], [[anti-establishment]] rhetoric, and [[List of conspiracy theories promoted by Donald Trump|conspiracy theories]]. His policies and rhetoric led to the [[Trumpism]] movement.&quot; [[User:Rexxx7777|Rexxx7777]] ([[User talk:Rexxx7777|talk]]) 22:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::I prefer a mention of &quot;[[right-wing populism]]&quot; to &quot;anti-establishment rhetoric&quot;, as that is how this article currently describes his positions; the other article also helps connect Trump's rise to the global context of emergent figures such as [[Viktor Orbán]], [[Giorgia Meloni]], [[Jair Bolsonaro]], and [[Javier Milei]]. I also think mentioning &quot;'[[America First (policy)|America First]]' nationalism&quot; is better than &quot;nationalism&quot; alone, as that article helps explain the non-interventionist and economic protectionist elements of Trump's brand of nationalism, which is not implied by simply stating &quot;nationalism&quot;. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *At a minimum, this should be added to the body before considering adding it to the lede. Trumpism is not really discussed in the body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *:Perhaps not all in one sentence, but the body does in fact mention Trumpism, right-wing populism, America First, and protectionism, and even his cult of personality. I think my proposal does a good job of tying this all together. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *::It doesn't relate these to Trumpism. It also doesn't mention the &quot;loyalty to himself&quot; comment. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *:::What is Trumpism but the rhetoric, ideology, and political actions of Donald Trump, which form the bulk of this article's content? The last part about &quot;loyalty&quot; I am less confident in than the rest, and will bow to opposition to it. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:57, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *::::I am not opposed, I am just asking that the lede doesn't develop separately from the body per the [[MOS:LEAD|manual of style]]. The lede shouldn't be the only place that &lt;del&gt;defines Trumpism.&lt;/del&gt; &lt;ins&gt;defines Trumpism. How you define Trumpism is also at odds with the lede of [[Trumpism]]: {{tq|a political movement in the United States that comprises the political ideologies associated with Donald Trump and his political base.}}&lt;/ins&gt;[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I am slightly modifying my proposal to this: {{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which gave rise to [[Trumpism]], a political movement characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[protectionism]].}} — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 00:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::I think loyalty to Trump is an important part of it.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 03:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yeah, but it's kinda implied by the name. Let's give our readers the credit of putting together that &quot;Trumpists&quot; are loyal to Trump [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 05:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::For a few weeks we have been discussing the need for this kind of addition in multiple talk pages. Some editors agreed, some didn't. For me this seems mandatory, since Trump winning the first election is the most notable event of his life and it needs proper context. In my opinion Goszei additions to the second paragraph manage to make that description clear and concise. Editor @[[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] reverted them with explanation &quot;overdetail&quot;. I disagree, there is a missing flow in the lead that is filled in by these additions, they are also not overdetailed and the second paragraph has space for them. ::::Goszei edit: ::::{{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which gave rise to [[Trumpism]], a political movement characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[protectionism]].}} ::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258693326&amp;oldid=1258687981 the reversion] by Nikkimaria: ::::{{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement.}} ::::Also another detail that said &quot;and focused on luxury accommodation&quot; was removed. It helps to define what Trump was known for. Before that the lead went in even more detail with the kind of properties Trump invested in. ::::Similarly to what @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] is saying I do not believe that the &quot;loyal to himself&quot; part is needed. ::::I've done 2 reversions in the last 24h so I'll avoid going further, someone else can reinsert these if there is consensus. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:31, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The lead does not need any more detail, particularly (as noted above) detail that is not in the body. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::but they do are in the body. you could argue there is a repetition from general rethoric before being a president to the official acts, but it's different imo. ::::::and him having mostly luxury accomodations has now completelly disappeared, I'll edit that in since I don't see any reason to remove it and gives proper context. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 00:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Added the details back by connecting them directly on Trump and not on Trumpism, as it was noted here before. Should be good now. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 00:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Nope, definitely not good, those additions should be reverted until you've got consensus for them. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::The &quot;luxury accomodations&quot; part was present in the lead for a very long time in an even more developed form, so why revert that? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Regarding the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1259044948&amp;oldid=1259032069 main diff] that has been reverted by @[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ::::::::::In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] &lt;u&gt;characterized by [[Right-wing populism|right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[Protectionism|protectionism]]&lt;/u&gt;, which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement. ::::::::::How do other editors feel? Is this relevant enough for the lead and properly present on body? ::::::::::@[[User:Goszei|Goszei]] @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] @[[User:Rexxx7777|Rexxx7777]] @[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] @[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] (editors that participated in this discussion) @[[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] @[[User:Mandruss|Mandruss]] @[[User:Thistheyear2023|Thistheyear2023]] @[[User:Димитрий Улянов Иванов|Димитрий Улянов Иванов]] @[[User:PizzaKing13|PizzaKing13]] @[[User:750h+|750h+]] @[[User:BootsED|BootsED]] (editors of the newer 50 edits) ::::::::::If you got the time please motivate your reasoning in favor or against this addition, so that we can look for consensus. If this is too close I will consider doing a RfC for it. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::I'd support it's inclusion as it appears to be an accurate description. Thanks, [[User:Димитрий Улянов Иванов|Димитрий Улянов Иванов]] ([[User talk:Димитрий Улянов Иванов|talk]]) 14:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::Since you pinged me, I'll reply. '''I completely agree with [[User:Moxy|Moxy]]'s edit, and therefore disagree with the inclusion of content'''. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 14:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::I think the most important thing is that it keeps mention of Trumpism. I like the edit before it was removed, and thus support the inclusion. If the consensus is to remove the edit, as long as Trumpism is still mentioned, I am okay with it. The page for Trumpism mentions how it is right-wing populist as nationalist. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 20:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :What would this ass we do not already say? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::For me it is a mather of order and logical steps. This is what he said and did before being a president, what made him popular. The formulation is in the right place in the lead (second paragraph) and feels more direct that just refering to policies later on. This is consistent with the lead of [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]], for exemple (no comparison between individuals but of how to develop an high quality complex lead). Antisemitism is mentioned in paragraph 2, while he was not in power, despite references to his antisemitic policies obviously having a spot later. ::For me, this how a lead should be written. Anything else is sloppy and with major logical holes. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::So this would not add anything, just change the order of the lead? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == muslim ban formulation on lead == @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] Since I did one revert already on the page I will refrain to go further and I am opening a discussion to discuss that precise phrase. This is the version that was recently added and that I find the best: {{tq|In his first term, he [[Executive Order 13769|ordered a travel ban]] limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries}} and this is yours: {{tq|In his first term, he ordered the &quot;[[Executive Order 13769|Muslim ban]]&quot; limiting refugees}} I really feel like the first formulation is extremelly more clear. It manages to say in a couple of words what that executive order was about, previous formulations and your latest are difficult to grasp for someone who is not already familiar with the topic. Why did you feel the need for the change? And what do other editors think? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 23:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :I also want to point out that the current lead is not too long. Editors have done an egregious job in the last few weeks to shorten it and put elements in the right place. So, in my opinion, that should not be an argument to prefer one over the other. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 00:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I support the original version. The new version is not clear enough. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 01:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::Agree. The original version is more comprehensive at the cost of only a few extra words if length is concerned. &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 01:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I only re-added it because your edit summary removing it had to do with a different edit. You're still free to revert it now that you've included an explanation. :However, to respond to your post here, I don't see what information it loses, and it also removes a somewhat [[WP:LINKCLARITY|unclear link]] &quot;ordered a travel ban&quot; in favor if the order's common name. :If anything I think this is clearer. The ''point'' of the bill was to limit Muslim immigration, but, as previously phrased it sounds like he ordered a general travel ban that ''just so happened'' to limit refugees. Using the order's name adds information, and makes this point better and much more concisely. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::The way the first reads to me implies that it '''limits''' Muslim refugees from entering the country by placing the limitation on ''Muslim-majority countries.'' The second one, to me more-so implies an outright ban to all Muslim immigration which would in turn limit refugees &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 01:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::That's fair. I still think the item's name should be used instead of the current link. :::But also, wouldn't this reasoning extend to the other items in the sentence as well? :::&quot;Trump ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries, funded the Trump wall expanding the U.S.–Mexico border wall, and implemented a family separation policy at the border, separating migrant children and parents.&quot; [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::We need to achieve a balance between brevity and accurately explaining the policies. &quot;Funded the Trump wall&quot; borders on too vague as well, and doesn't convey that the wall already existed and that he expanded its length. My preferred wording here is {{tq|ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees, expanded the wall on the U.S.{{endash}}Mexico border, and implemented a family separation policy.}} — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 02:04, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::&quot;We need to achieve a balance&quot; :::::Are you suggesting there's a way to measure that balance? Or are you just saying yours is perfectly balanced and we should use that? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 05:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::My proposal contains as many words as I think are needed to explain without being inaccurate or misleading. Other editors can disagree, especially on the &quot;misleading&quot; part, and propose their own. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 05:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I agree with what Goszei is doing, trying to refer to policy not only with a catch all journalistic nickname but actually working on a proper, short summarization that fairly represents the policy. One is easier to do but actually useless to the reader, the other is complex but carries meaning. His latest proposition, {{tq|ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees}}, seems good to me. Also because there were ecceptions on the list of countries targeted. I will edit that in and let's see if we can agree on it. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 11:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tq|Muslim ban}} falsely implies that the ban applied to all Muslims, but {{tq|ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries}} also misrepresents what the order actually did (it suspended all entry from those countries, not just refugees, which was a separate provision). If we want to indicate that the ban targeted Muslims (which civil rights organizations and similar groups claimed was its not-so-secret purpose, which was supported by reporting such as [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/29/trump-asked-for-a-muslim-ban-giuliani-says-and-ordered-a-commission-to-do-it-legally/]), perhaps we could compromise with the wording {{tq|ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees}}. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:47, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == Has Trump been convicted of a felony? &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Trump has not been convicted of a felony&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == The jury had merely returned a verdict. Only a judge can convict someone - a judge can still throw the jury's verdict away. While extremely rare, it can happen. Wikipedia's definition agrees: &quot;A convict is &quot;a person found guilty of a crime and sentenced by a court&quot; or &quot;a person serving a sentence in prison&quot;. Source: [[Convict|Convict - Wikipedia]] Notice it says &quot;found guilty of a crime&quot; AND &quot;sentenced by a court.&quot; Only a judge can do the latter. According to the American Bar: &quot;The''' decision of the jury doesn t take effect until the judge enters a judgment on the decision''' - that is, an order that it be filed in public records.&quot; Source: [https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/judgment/ How Courts Work - Americanbar.org &quot;Judgement&quot;] So no, Trump has not been convicted of any felony. All that has happened is a jury has returned a verdict. Please change the lede to reflect Wikipedia's own definition of convict as well as basic knowledge of how courts work. Thank you! [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 08:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :This has already been explained to you elsewhere on this page, but here goes with another attempt.{{pb}}As I told you, Wikipedia may not be used as a source for itself. So why did you link to that Wikipedia article again?{{pb}}As someone else told you, &quot;convicted&quot; (verb or adjective) and &quot;convict&quot; (noun) are not equivalent. One can be convicted without being a convict. Is English your first language?{{pb}}See [[Wikipedia:No original research]]. Excerpted from its very first paragraph:{{tq2|To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are {{em|directly related}} to the topic of the article and {{em|directly support}}{{efn|A source &quot;directly supports&quot; a given piece of material if the information is present {{em|explicitly}} in the source so that using this source to support the material is not a violation of this policy against original research. For questions about where and how to place citations, see [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]], {{section link|Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section|Citations}}, etc.}} the material being presented.}}You have yet to present a single reliable source that mentions Trump and says he has not been convicted. Therefore the &quot;directly&quot; requirement has not been met.{{pb}}I will close this as resolved if no one else has commented within 24 hours. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::Did you not see the American Bar website I posted? Lol ::Convict is a noun: &quot;CONVICT is a person '''convicted''' of and under sentence for a crime. How to use convict in a sentence.&quot; ::You do know the judge can throw away the verdict right? The fact is, he's not convicted of a felony. Prove he is if you can. Show me. It's not up to me to prove a negative - it's up to you to prove a positive. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::Since you apparently have a hearing problem, I'm not wasting any more of my time trying to speak to you. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If Trump is a convicted felon, he will not be able to travel to the UK and Canada. ::::Will he be able to travel to the UK and Canada? Yes or no? ::::[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/why-donald-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-yet/ar-BB1no6oV Why Donald Trump Isn't A Convicted Felon (Yet)] ::::[https://www.foxnews.com/politics/yale-law-professor-outlines-potential-trump-legal-strategy-following-guilty-verdict-nation-needs?msockid=1248a7002eb9682a14dcb4682f186918]https://www.foxnews.com/politics/yale-law-professor-outlines-potential-trump-legal-strategy-following-guilty-verdict-nation-needs?msockid=1248a7002eb9682a14dcb4682f186918 &quot;You are not convicted until the judge enters that judgment of guilt.&quot; [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::FINALLY, you produce sources that at least meet the minimum policy requirements. Now it's a question of [[WP:WEIGHT]], since many other reliable sources say he's been convicted. I'll leave that to others. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Here I will add some references, I can see you have kinda had an unpleasant time with this topic, I will try and be more prim and proper with my efforts. The most relevant section here is &quot;Despite media reports, Rubenfeld insisted that it’s “not true” that Trump is already a “convicted felon,” arguing that one is “not a convicted felon because of a jury verdict.” ::::::“You are not convicted until the judge enters that judgment of guilt. Now, in New York, it’s very likely that [https://nypost.com/2024/06/07/us-news/judge-merchan-alerts-trump-lawyer-manhattan-das-office-to-facebook-comment-purportedly-made-by-a-jurors-cousin/ Judge Merchan] will enter that judgment of guilt against Trump on the same day that he issues sentencing. That’d be July 11th.” https://nypost.com/2024/06/08/us-news/yale-law-professor-says-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-despite-guilty-verdict-heres-why/ [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 13:21, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::See [[WP:NYPOST]]... [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 07:13, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::I see you deleted my question, fair enough it is here. I saw it explained by a US lawyer that one cannot be a felon until sentencing, especially as that can involve discharge without conviction. And its not just a technicality, the restrictions of felony status don't kick in until that time. I asked the AI and it says the same. And the previous commentator has a few references saying the exact same. It seems the most correct phrase is that he &quot;has been found guilty&quot;. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 13:15, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::This is somewhat accurate, to provide a bit more clarity: conviction does not occur until ''after'' sentencing, with there still being time for additional legal proceedings such as appeals beforehand - so yes he has technically been found ''guilty'' by a jury, however he is '''not''' a convicted felon &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :He has been convicted, he has just not been sentenced, which is independent of a guilty verdict. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::I have to agree with @[[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] here ::From my understanding Trump has been found guilty by a jury in certain cases, but he has not yet been ''formally'' '''convicted''' because the judge has not entered a conviction by imposing a sentence. Conviction only occurs ''after'' sentencing, and in some cases, there may be additional legal proceedings (like appeals) before that happens. &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::I think the point being missed is that our understanding has nothing to do with it. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:53, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Well this is not really an understanding but more-so just the way that the legal system works... I have not yet had a look at the sources to see what [[WP:RS]] is supporting that he is a '''convicted''' felon, but if it is just news outlets then I would not think we should rely on them for something such as this for the sake of accuracy. Wikipedia does not have any concrete rules but more-so guidelines so if we are reporting on what RS has said about this, then I think we should do so with the indisputable legal facts in mind and use sources that know what they are talking about rather than just regurgitating what a reporter is claiming ::::If there is something I have missed or overlooked then please disregard my comment &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::No, you may have a point. I vaguely recall doing something like that once or twice in the distant past. This thread got off to a bad start because the OP has no editing knowledge, and the first five comments are basically useless distractions. I think an experienced editor should start a new thread and we could close this one. It's likely to end up a long one. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I understood the entire time you wanted me to link to a news source or something like that. But I shouldn't have had to because Trump not being a convicted felon is truism. It doesn't need a source. It'd be like asking for a source that Trump isn't Santa Claus or a German citizen. It's just a fact he isn't. You essentially put the burden of proof on the defendant. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:26, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Yeah it is just news outlets. But I added and the other guys added news outlets quoting a legal professor showing it isn't true. And then we have the Bar association, where we can see the professor is right. I will attach the sequence of trial. Here is the key bit. &quot;The decision of the jury doesn t take effect until the judge enters a judgment on the decision - that is, an order that it be filed in public records.&quot;. And that hasn't happened yet. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/judgment/ [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 23:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}}{{u|Liger404}} Thankyou for your work here. Unfortunately, what you're describing above is considered [[WP:OR|original research]]: have a read of the &quot;Smith and Jones&quot; example in that page. None of the secondary sources you or other editors have found at this time are considered [[WP:RS|reliable]], I've had a quick look and couldn't find anything either. The best place to go from here would be to ask the [[WP:RDH|reference desk]] or [[WP:LAW|Wikiproject Law]] if reliable sources verify this. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 10:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :It's not OR to check that the words we use accurately reflect their definitions. News media are not expert sources for law, they are merely sources for what happened. If they use terms incorrectly, then we should fix it. :Technically, a jury returns a guilty verdict and a judge enters a conviction. The judge may however ignore the jury's verdict of guilt and not record a conviction or enter a conviction following a verdict of not guilty. Also, the conviction is not considered final until all appeals have run out. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 11:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|The Four Deuces}} I am possibly stretching the Smith and Jones example too far. I don't like relying on news sources, so I don't want to take too firm a stand. I hope {{u|voorts}} doesn't mind if I ping him in here. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::He was found guilty by a jury. In New York, a judgment of conviction is issued after sentencing. However, the distinction between being found guilty by a jury and a court issuing a judgment is so in the weeds that I don't think it matters which one we use. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 14:16, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thankyou voorts. This addresses my main concern that we as non-subject matter experts were unaware of relevant facts. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 16:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I'd say it matters whether this article's lead says Trump is the first U.S. president convicted of a felony. A lot. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:10, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::voorts is a lawyer from New York, and is speaking from such a perspective as to whether the distinction is important. I imagine the alternative would be &quot;found guilty by a jury of felony crimes&quot; etc, do you see a significant loss from such a switch? Alternatively &quot;convicted felon&quot; would be used and the reference to primary sources would be footnoted. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 18:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If reliable secondary sources say convicted, we should say the same. See [[WP:VNT]]. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 20:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::How do you think this applies the fifth example given in the #How can we tell section of [[WP:WSAW]], also an essay? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:56, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I don't think it's &quot;obviously inaccurate&quot; to say that Trump was &quot;convicted&quot; because colloquially, a jury finding someone guilty is referred to as a conviction. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 21:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Makes sense, thankyou for your input here. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:22, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::I'm unconvinced it's wise to use a colloquialism for something that important. It's an encyclopedia. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I do not think the standard we are seeking here is being excusably inaccurate. If he was going to be sentenced and become a felon in the next few weeks, I would agree. But this is a detail that matters, Trump being the first Felon President would be historic. However because he will not be a felon until sentenced, and because sentencing has not been postponed until after he is president it is not clear that Trump will ever become a felon. Therefore it is actually a substantial error that we are saying this, as it is not true and is quite possibly never going to become true. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Sorry that is supposed to show that sentencing HAS being postponed. So the feloney status will not be applied for at least 4 years, if ever. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:29, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::It matter substantially because the sentencing is now delayed until at least after the Presidency and possibly indefinitely. This fundamentally changes an essential fact. Trump at this stage does not seem likely to ever actually become a felon, or at least not for 4 years. The distinction matters for this reason, because it fundamentally changes the feloney outcome. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I disagree, because even Wikipedia states only a judge can convict: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdict#Criminal_law ::::&quot;A verdict of guilty in a criminal case generally requires evidence to be tested and true beyond reasonable doubt and is normally followed by a judgment of conviction rendered by judge, which in turn be followed by sentencing.&quot; ::::It should be consistent. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :The news source I attached is the Washington post. Surely that's reliable? But perhaps more importantly it's quoting a US law professor. I have the guys YouTube video on the matter if that helps? Surely expert legal opinion is the highest level of source? [[Special:Contributions/115.189.93.186|115.189.93.186]] ([[User talk:115.189.93.186|talk]]) 00:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Surely the New York post and a Yale law Professor are reputable sources? A mainstream newspaper and an Ivy league subject matter expert. https://nypost.com/2024/06/08/us-news/yale-law-professor-says-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-despite-guilty-verdict-heres-why/ or if you want the actual Podcast, so the direct words of a Yale Constitutional law Professor, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u23t__ysVjU&amp;ab_channel=ProfessorJedRubenfeld [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::The NY Post is not a reliable source - see [[WP:NYPOST]] for the reasons why and the multiple discussions surrounding that. One law professor is certainly a reliable source for their own opinion - but that does ''not'' mean that their opinion is to be treated as fact and reported in &quot;wikivoice&quot; (i.e. saying &quot;Trump was convicted&quot; or not). That source would be reliable to report that in the opinion of that professor, Trump is not a convicted felon at this time. But the plurality (if not majority) of reliable sources are reporting he has been convicted. It matters not what the &quot;technical&quot; definition of the word is - it matters how it's used in common English. In common English, the word &quot;convicted&quot; can either mean &quot;final judgment has been passed&quot; ''or'' &quot;a jury has returned a verdict of guilty and there is no sign that it is going to be overturned&quot;.{{pb}}That said, I think there's a simple solution here. Why do we not just change &quot;convicted of a felony&quot; to &quot;found guilty of a felony (by a jury)&quot; with the parenthetical not being necessary in my opinion but... -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &amp;#124; [[User:berchanhimez|me]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:berchanhimez|talk to me!]] 08:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yes my same proposal was a change in language to &quot;Has been found guilty&quot;, although perhaps is is worth saying &quot;Has been found guilty in the ongoing case xyz&quot; . Felon is common parlance means someone who lives with the legal restrictions of a felony. Travel,voting guns rights, jobs ect. Because Trump does not yet have felony status, and now with the sentencing indefinitely delayed until at least after the presidency, Trump will not have felony status, and may never. So he isn't a &quot;felon&quot; in the way you would use the word when say, selling him a gun, filling out a travel visa or a job application. I do also have a Hindustan Times report that sames the same, referencing the same professor basically. I see they are considered semi accurate on that list. https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/us-news/trump-not-a-convicted-felon-yet-yale-law-professor-trashes-hush-money-trial-verdict-crime-is-so-unclear-101717926723371.html [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The word &quot;felon&quot; is not currently anywhere in the article and is not currently an issue. If someone tried to add it, I would oppose simply because it's unnecessarily [[MOS:LABEL|&quot;labelly&quot;]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Well ok, but it says &quot;convicted of a felony&quot; which is incorrect. And its incorrect in a way that matters, because it's no longer clear that this will ever happen, and if it will happen seems certain to be years away. And I would say a reasonable person reading that line would interpret it as Trump now being a convicted felon. Thus the language is misleading in an important way about a historically significant event. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 09:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == order of sentences on lead == I tried to change the order of sentences on lead, following the logic that would describe his first presidency and comments on third paragraph, and putting informations related to officials trials and such on fourth. There is no perfect &quot;chronological&quot; order either way, and that felt smoother to me, and it avoids mixing together two different kind of facts that are taking different paths (journalistic commentary or judicial system). @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] why do you feel that the other formulation is better? For other editors, this is the diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258711727&amp;oldid=1258705669 [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == description of his political approach on lead == For a few weeks we have been discussing in multiple sections on talk the need to have something that would relate to Trump rise to power. Some editors agreed, some didn't. For me this seems mandatory, since Trump winning the first election is the most notable event of his life and it needs proper context. In my opinion Goszei additions to the second paragraph manage to make that description clear and concise. Editor @[[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] reverted them with explanation &quot;overdetail&quot;. I disagree, there is a missing flow in the lead that is filled in by these additions, they are also not overdetailed and the second paragraph has space for them. Goszei edit: {{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which gave rise to [[Trumpism]], a political movement characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[protectionism]].}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258693326&amp;oldid=1258687981 the reversion] by Nikkimaria: {{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement.}} Also another detail that said &quot;and focused on luxury accommodation&quot; was removed. It helps to define what Trump was known for. Before that the lead went in even more detail with the kind of properties Trump invested in. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I had not noticed that there was already an [[Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal to add brief description of Trumpism in lead|ongoing discussion]] for this. Please refer to that one! [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:28, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == It makes no sense to separate military service from government service == There are civilian contractors who are distinct from the military. Civilian contractors are not part of the government, whereas the military is part of the government's department of defense. In fact, the chief commander of the military is the president. Indeed, the department of defense is the largest department of the government in terms of number of employees. Therefore, the sentence 'Trump won the 2016 presidential election and became the first U.S. president without prior military or government service.' makes no sense and should be reworded to 'Trump won the 2016 presidential election and became the first U.S. president without prior government service.' Just my 2 cents. [[Special:Contributions/206.176.149.191|206.176.149.191]] ([[User talk:206.176.149.191|talk]]) 12:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :But a teacher is not in the military, and an artillery man is not a teacher. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::I would say teacher has government service at the city level. ::[[Special:Contributions/216.165.197.66|216.165.197.66]] ([[User talk:216.165.197.66|talk]]) 13:07, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::Err, yes, that is my point, they are however not soldiers. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :This has been brought up over and over, see talk page archives. We have an existing [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]], [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 8. Unless you have significant new arguments, we will not revisit that consensus.{{pb}}Anyway, there is [[Talk:Donald Trump#Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8|a proposal to remove this factoid from the lead]], using the &quot;significant new argument&quot; that it no longer earns its keep in our substantially-reduced lead. It's looking like the proposal will pass, which would moot this discussion. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Have always found it weird that when these templates are implemented..... the primary data people are interested in place of birth age etc are now moved to the bottom of the template. &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold;color:darkblue&quot;&gt;[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]&lt;/span&gt;🍁 01:42, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Watering down of criticism == Re; [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1258943656 this reversion] of my edits. Hi {{u|ValarianB}}, I explained my edits as aligning the text with the sources. If you would like to reinstate the previous version, ensure the text better aligns with the sources. For context, I changed a sentence from: :{{tq|His embrace of far-right extremism and harsher rhetoric against his political enemies have been described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, [[Donald Trump and fascism|fascist]]}} :→ {{tq|His harsher rhetoric against his political enemies has been described by some historians and scholars as authoritarian, [[Donald Trump and fascism|fascist]]}}. I also removed several sources for not verifying this information and the descriptor of embracing far-right extremism. I did this per my readthrough of the sources, seeing if they were verifying the text, seen below. {{collapse top}} {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; ! |Populist |Fascist |Authoritarian | |- |https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/27/magazine/trump-rallies-rhetoric.html |Yes: NYTvoice |Debated, some changed their mind as of 2021 | | |- |https://www.vox.com/2023/11/14/23958866/trump-vermin-authoritarian-democracy | |Debated in 2021, Voxvoice yes | | |- |https://www.axios.com/2023/11/13/trump-vermin-fascist-language-speech | |Some historians describing rhetoric 2024 | | |- |https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/trumps-fascistic-rhetoric-only-emphasizes-the-stakes-in-2024 | |NewYorkerVoice |NewYorkerVoice | |- |https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/11/donald-trump-authoritarian-second-term | |VanityFairVoice |VanityFairVoice | |- |https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/07/trump-second-term-isolationist-fascism/674791/ |SME scholar |&quot;Variety of academics&quot; SME: Could be a fascist in 2nd term based on promises |SME scholar | |- |https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-compares-political-opponents-vermin-root-alarming-historians/story?id=104847748 | |Ambiguous: some historians or historians generally | | |- |https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/12/trump-racist-rhetoric-immigrants-00183537 | | |Some experts |Some experts &quot;Nazi ideology&quot; |- |https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/10/trump-authoritarian-rhetoric-hitler-mussolini/680296/ |SME historian | | | |- |https://www.axios.com/2024/10/11/mark-milley-trump-fascist-bob-woodward-book | | | | |- |https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/10/12/mark-milley-donald-trump-fascist/ | | | | |- |https://www.thebulwark.com/p/mattis-told-woodward-he-agreed-trump | | | | |- |https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/22/politics/trump-fascist-john-kelly/index.html | | | | |} {{collapse bottom}} As seen, only four sources are discussing the attitudes of historians and scholars as classes re; 2024 conduct. I clarified that this was held by &quot;some&quot; scholars and historians; none of the sources made a stronger claim except ambiguously the ABC News piece on historians views of fascism; the rest all qualified with &quot;some&quot;. Many sources didn't discuss historians or historians at all. Those four sources actually discussing attitudes among historians and scholars were retained. Two sources mentioned populism, both subject matter experts, although only one in the context of Trump's 2024 rhetoric and neither commented on beliefs among historians and scholars as a class. Populism as a descriptor was removed, it is already mentioned in a more relevant place earlier: {{tq|Trump's political positions and rhetoric were described as right-wing populist.}} Only one source supported the descriptor &quot;embraced far-right extremism&quot;, and it was entirely sourced to the analysis of a non-subject-matter-expert journalist; insufficient for an [[WP:EXTRAORDINARY|extraordinary]] claim. Citing academic consensus to news pieces is already insufficient but is retained until further reading can be performed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 16:35, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :{{Ping|Rollinginhisgrave}} I agree with you. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 00:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Still counting votes == {{atop|Resolved per OP. Eligible for manual archival after this time tomorrow. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:23, 22 November 2024 (UTC)}} [[Peter Baker (journalist)|Peter Baker]]'s analysis says today that when the votes are all in, Mr. Trump's total will fall below 50%. We should prepare to state that he ran three times, was elected twice, and never won the popular vote.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=The ‘Landslide’ That Wasn’t: Trump and Allies Pump Up His Narrow Victory|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/22/us/politics/trump-election-landslide.html|last=Baker|first=Peter|date=November 22, 2024|access-date=November 22, 2024|work=The New York Times}}&lt;/ref&gt; {{talk-reflist}} -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:47, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :It does not require winning the majority of popular vote to win the popular vote. In European presidential elections, the winner almost never wins the majority of the popular vote, only more popular vote than the other candidates. [[Special:Contributions/216.165.197.66|216.165.197.66]] ([[User talk:216.165.197.66|talk]]) 17:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thank you for the correction! -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 19:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::That is OR, it's also all rather irrelevant as we do not know yet if he did or did not win the popular vote (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/popular-vote). [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:07, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::The New York Times source linked above says &quot;With some votes still being counted, the tally used by The New York Times showed Mr. Trump winning the popular vote with 49.997 percent as of Thursday night&quot;. This directly contradicts the idea that you need to win a majority to &quot;win&quot; the popular vote. The dictionary definition linked also doesn't claim that you need to win a majority to &quot;win&quot; the popular vote. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:14, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Ahh I see, and where did Harris come?. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::She's at ~48.3% at the moment. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:29, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::That is what winning the popular vote means, he got more votes. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Think we're in agreement, have another readover of the thread. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:38, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Yes, we know. The OP said {{tq|Trump's total will fall below 50%}}, when the test is whether he falls below Harris. This entire thread has been for clearing up that point. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thank you for the correction! (I'm not the best at counting votes.) Baker says in this article that &lt;b&gt;{{tq|&quot;Mr. Trump won the popular vote for the first time in three tries.&quot;}}&lt;/b&gt; Still I think we need to prepare for Mr. Baker's point {{tq|&quot;he prevailed with one of the smallest margins of victory in the popular vote since the 19th century and generated little of the coattails of a true landslide.&quot;}} despite Mr. Trump's claims. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{u|Mandruss}}, this can be archived. No more corrections needed. Thanks. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:21, 22 November 2024 (UTC) {{abot}} == Overdetail == @[[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]], you removed [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259051300 this] edit claiming overdetail. I disagree and think it adds much needed information to the page and is well-sourced. I copied over three sentences from the rhetoric page I thought would enhance the main page, but left the vast majority of information out, as I myself do not want to overdetail the main page. The content was copied within the relevant section. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 02:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :There is already considerable discussion of rhetoric and related concepts incorporated into the rest of the article, including the claim that he is populist/nationalist, use of demeaning and derogatory language, and his rejection of the 2020 election results. If you wanted to reorganize the existing content to move it into the rhetoric section, I would have no objection, but I don't think we need to add new content there. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::My added content did not mention his rejection of the 2020 election results. I think you are referring to the mention of the &quot;[[big lie]]&quot; which in this case refers to the propaganda technique, which is why it is in the rhetoric section. The &quot;big lie&quot; mentioned elsewhere refers to the lie of a stolen election itself. You are correct that it is mentioned he is populist/nationalist elsewhere, but not including a mention of this in the section called &quot;political practice&quot; seems like an oversight. ::The one sentence in question I added was: {{tq|Research has identified Trump's rhetoric as heavily using vitriol, demeaning language, [[false equivalency]], exclusion,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Stuckey |first1=Mary E. |date=20 February 2020 |title=&quot;The Power of the Presidency to Hurt&quot;: The Indecorous Rhetoric of Donald J. Trump and the Rhetorical Norms of Democracy |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/psq.12641 |journal=Presidential Studies Quarterly |volume=50 |issue=2 |access-date=14 September 2024 |pages=366–391 |issn=0360-4918 |doi=10.1111/psq.12641}}&lt;/ref&gt; and [[Nativism (politics)|nativist]]&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Bender |first=Michael C. |date=September 22, 2024 |title=On the Trail, Trump and Vance Sharpen a Nativist, Anti-Immigrant Tone |work=[[The New York Times]] |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/22/us/politics/trump-vance-nativist.html |access-date=September 25, 2024 |quote=Battling in a tight race, the Trump-Vance team is sharpening the anti-immigrant nativism that fueled the former president's initial rise to power in 2016, seizing on scare tactics, falsehoods and racial stereotypes.}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[fearmongering]]{{Efn|Name=&quot;Fearmongering&quot;|Attributed to multiple sources:&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Lim |first1=Hyeyoung |last2=Seungeun Lee |first2=Claire |last3=Kim |first3=Chunrye |date=January 2023 |title=Fear, Political Legitimization, and Racism: Examining Anti-Asian Xenophobia During the COVID-19 Pandemic |journal=Race and Justice |volume=13 |issue=1 |pages=80–104 |issn=2153-3687 |doi=10.1177/21533687221125817 |pmc=9475372}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Bustinza |first1=Monica A. |last2=Witkowski |first2=Kaila |date=19 June 2022 |title=Immigrants, deviants, and drug users: A rhetorical analysis of President Trump's fear-driven tweets during the 2019 government shutdown |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/poi3.313 |journal=Policy &amp; Internet |volume=14 |issue=4 |access-date=14 September 2024 |pages=788–806 |issn=1944-2866 |doi=10.1002/poi3.313}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Nai |first1=Alessandro |last2=Maier |first2=Jürgen |date=4 June 2021 |title=The Wrath of Candidates. Drivers of Fear and Enthusiasm Appeals in Election Campaigns across the Globe |journal=Journal of Political Marketing |volume=23 |issue=1 |pages=74–91 |issn=1537-7857 |doi=10.1080/15377857.2021.1930327 |pmid=38318239 |pmc=10840446 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Jacobsen |first1=Gary C. |date=24 October 2020 |title=Donald Trump and the Parties: Impeachment, Pandemic, Protest, and Electoral Politics in 2020 |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/psq.12682 |journal=Presidential Studies Quarterly |volume=50 |issue=4 |access-date=15 September 2024 |pages=762–795 |issn=0360-4918 |doi=10.1111/psq.12682 |quote=Even if his racially-charged fear-mongering fails to deliver victory, the party image it conveys will not soon fade}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} about immigrants, crime, and minorities as essential to his support.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |last1=Mason |first1=Liliana |last2=Wronski |first2=Julie |last3=Kane |first3=John V. |title=Activating Animus: The Uniquely Social Roots of Trump Support |journal=American Political Science Review |publisher=Cambridge University Press |volume=115 |issue=4 |date=2021 |pages=1508–1516 |doi=10.1017/S0003055421000563 |s2cid=237860170 |quote=Trump's support is thus uniquely tied to animus toward minority groups. Our findings provide insights into the social divisions underlying American politics and the role of elite rhetoric in translating animus into political support.}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |last1=Baker |first1=Joseph O. |last2=Perry |first2=Samuel L. |last3=Whitehead |first3=Andrew L. |title=Keep America Christian (and White): Christian Nationalism, Fear of Ethnoracial Outsiders, and Intention to Vote for Donald Trump in the 2020 Presidential Election |journal=Sociology of Religion |volume=81 |issue=3 |date=14 May 2020 |pages=272–293 |doi=10.1093/socrel/sraa015|quote=In the penultimate year before Trump's reelection campaign, the strongest predictors of supporting Trump, in order of magnitude, were political party, xenophobia, identifying as African American (negative), political ideology, Christian nationalism, and Islamophobia.|hdl=1805/26339 |hdl-access=free }}&lt;/ref&gt;}} The section you removed afterwards was not added by me but already in the article for a while now, and was: &quot;{{tq|Trump uses rhetoric that political scientists have deemed to be both [[Dehumanization|dehumanizing]] and connected to physical violence by his followers.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Nacos |first1=Brigitte L. |last2=Shapiro |first2=Robert Y. |last3=Bloch-Elkon |first3=Yaeli |date=2020 |title=Donald Trump: Aggressive Rhetoric and Political Violence |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/26940036 |journal=Perspectives on Terrorism |volume=14 |issue=5 |pages=2–25 |issn=2334-3745 |jstor=26940036 |access-date=December 16, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Some research suggests Trump's rhetoric caused an increased incidence of hate crimes.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Kunzelman |first1=Michael |last2=Galvan |first2=Astrid |date=August 7, 2019 |title=Trump words linked to more hate crime? Some experts think so |url=https://apnews.com/article/7d0949974b1648a2bb592cab1f85aa16 |access-date=October 7, 2021 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Feinberg |first1=Ayal |last2=Branton |first2=Regina |last3=Martinez-Ebers |first3=Valerie |date=March 22, 2019 |title=Analysis &amp;#124; Counties that hosted a 2016 Trump rally saw a 226 percent increase in hate crimes |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/22/trumps-rhetoric-does-inspire-more-hate-crimes/ |access-date=October 7, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; During his 2016 campaign, he urged or praised physical attacks against protesters or reporters.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=White |first=Daniel |date=February 1, 2016 |title=Donald Trump Tells Crowd To 'Knock the Crap Out Of' Hecklers |url=https://time.com/4203094/donald-trump-hecklers/ |access-date=August 9, 2019 |magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Koerner |first=Claudia |date=October 18, 2018 |title=Trump Thinks It's Totally Cool That A Congressman Assaulted A Journalist For Asking A Question |url=https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/claudiakoerner/trump-gianforte-congressman-assault-journalist-montana |access-date=October 19, 2018 |work=[[BuzzFeed News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Numerous defendants investigated or prosecuted for violent acts and hate crimes, including participants of the January&amp;nbsp;6, 2021, storming of the U.S. Capitol, cited Trump's rhetoric in arguing that they were not culpable or should receive leniency.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Tracy |first=Abigail |date=August 8, 2019 |title=&quot;The President of the United States Says It's Okay&quot;: The Rise of the Trump Defense |url=https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/08/donald-trump-domestic-terrorism-el-paso |access-date=October 7, 2021 |work=[[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Helderman |first1=Rosalind S. |last2=Hsu |first2=Spencer S. |last3=Weiner |first3=Rachel |date=January 16, 2021 |title='Trump said to do so': Accounts of rioters who say the president spurred them to rush the Capitol could be pivotal testimony |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-rioters-testimony/2021/01/16/01b3d5c6-575b-11eb-a931-5b162d0d033d_story.html |access-date=September 27, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; A nationwide review by ABC News in May 2020 identified at least 54 criminal cases from August 2015 to April 2020 in which Trump was invoked in direct connection with violence or threats of violence mostly by white men and primarily against minorities.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Levine |first=Mike |date=May 30, 2020 |title='No Blame?' ABC News finds 54 cases invoking 'Trump' in connection with violence, threats, alleged assaults. |url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/blame-abc-news-finds-17-cases-invoking-trump/story?id=58912889 |access-date=February 4, 2021 |work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} ::Going back in the page's edit history I see that '''the section you removed has been in the page for years''' titled &quot;Incitement of violence&quot; since at least 2022 (didn't want to scroll back further). ::I believe that the high-quality sources which were added also warrant the source's inclusion. Claims over fearmongering, for instance, are not mentioned elsewhere but backed up with the research articles provided in this addition. So there is a lot of new material not mentioned elsewhere in the article as well. ::{{sources-talk}}[[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Slight clarification, when I say you removed the section I mean you removed the section as a standalone as it has been since at least 2022 and put it under &quot;rhetoric&quot;. I believe it needs to remain as a standalone subsection as it has been for years. Not sure if that was clear from my prior comment. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::I don't agree that discussion of specific propaganda techniques should be in this article. I would be fine with moving content from elsewhere in the article into the Political practice section if you feel that is a better organizational approach. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::I also agree that discussion of specific propaganda techniques should not be in this article. The addition was just a sentence that mentioned that he uses the big lie and firehose of falsehood in the Truthfulness section. No further discussion of those two techniques are included on this page. :::I don't see why mentioning Trump's populism/nationalism can't be mentioned in the Political practice section as well as where it is in the other sections of the page now. A quick search reveals it is only mentioned in the election of 2016 section, one section in his first presidency, and once in the election of 2024 section. If someone wants to go to the Political practice section to learn about Trump's politics, it makes sense for at least a mention of populism/nationalism to be there. Again, I agree we should not be going into great detail here, but I think just mentioning it would be due. This is what my edit does. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 05:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If it's already mentioned three separate times, we don't need to mention it a fourth - we need to cut down the existing mentions. Consolidating to the Political practice section would be a good way to accomplish that; adding without consolidating would be the wrong way to go. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 05:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I would be in favor of that proposal, but I am afraid it breaks up the &quot;history&quot; section of the article. If anything, parts of the &quot;Election of 2016&quot; Rhetoric and political positions section should be moved to the political practice section. I would be willing to work on this if you think this is the way to go. I don't want to break any preexisting consensus here [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 20:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Okay, I went ahead and consolidated the sections as you recommended. I am looking at it and I agree, I think it looks much better now. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 21:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::{{u|BootsED}}, nice to meet you. Apologies in advance if I am mistaken. I was dumbfounded to see that you added 12000+ bytes and a whole lot of cites today. Was that really necessary? Sorry I'm relatively new at Donald Trump but can see much concern about this article being too long. I would feel like I was letting everybody down if I tried to do that. Please don't take offense, I would just like to know what's going on. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 22:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Hi Susan, the edit in question re-added an edit that was under discussion. Some mentions of right-wing populism were merged into the political practice section, where some of the information that was already on the page in various places was placed. The bites included lots of citations, which should be viewed separately from word count. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 23:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Thank you, {{u|BootsED}}, that explains it, good. Can you possibly use one or two good sources instead of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1259187646&amp;oldid=1259187101 five] for one sentence? I have [[Jennifer Mercieca]]'s book ''Demagogue for President: The Rhetorical Genius of Donald Trump'' if you need some help. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Hi Susan, ideally no more than six sources should be used. The sources are placed within an efn template to avoid cluttering the page. If you'd like to add your source to the page with a short quotation you are more than free to. I am hesitant to remove sources as many of the sentences deal with contentious material that people will attempt to remove claiming that &quot;two sources isn't enough to say this&quot; or something of that nature. This is why for such claims, I prefer to include as many high-quality sources as possible. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 23:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Clarification, I see you are referring to the media section edit. The two sources up top are directly related to the prior sentence section, and the remaining three are used as the direct sentence preceding it makes claims that are made within those three sources. There are only five sources used, in total, but they are split up to avoid having too many at the end. Other sentences on this page do a similar thing with a similar amount of sources. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 00:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::[[User:BootsED|BootsED]], what I proposed was consolidating the existing content, ''not'' re-adding the edit that was under discussion. Given that, and given that it's a violation of the 24-hr BRD, that needs reverting ASAP please. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 00:08, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thank you for your clarification. With that said, I believe [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259216057 this] content should be added to the page, as it expands upon the information presented within that section and uses much higher-quality sources than the existing content within that section. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 00:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Thank you for reverting. If you believe the existing content is poorly sourced, that's something that should be addressed separately from the question of adding more content. On the latter, the point of [[WP:SS|summary style]] is that the expanding should be accomplished in the subarticles - as above, that seems the better place for elaborating what specific propaganda techniques and rhetorical patterns are employed. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 00:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Thank you for the clarification. With that said, I disagree that the content should not be re-added to the page, as it adds summary-level detail to the page on topics not covered in the article itself. The content added is a summary-level detail, and it does not go into further specifics left to other pages. In regards to the propaganda techniques section, it merely mentions the techniques, it does not describe or go over them in detail. That detail is left for the more appropriate page, as you yourself mentioned. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 00:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::I think what the section needs, rather than simple additions, is a more careful rewriting of the existing content to be a more coherent summary of the subarticles. The current section, and the proposed additions, read as strings of claims. Do you feel the current lead of [[Rhetoric of Donald Trump]] is an appropriate summary of that article's contents? [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:11, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == &quot;facilitating the January 6 United States Capitol attack&quot; &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id='The claim that Trump &quot;facilitating the January 6 United States Capitol attack&quot; seems to be just an opinon.'&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == Right now the lead states that Trump facilitated the Jan 6 attack. He has never been convicted of such an act and the lead doesn't give a source. Just seems to be an opinion. Trump has not been convicted of any such crimes in relation to Jan 6. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 09:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Just for starters, you may have noticed that the lead doesn't give ''any'' sources. Related citations are in the supporting body content. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::well the Stormy Daniels comment does have a link. But regardless, this claim doesn't re appear in the body and so ultimately remains an unsupported opinion/false accusation. Trump has never been found guilty of any such offence. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 22:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Misogyny and cabinet appointments == A misogynist is a person who hates or discriminates against women.[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogynist] In this article there is the section [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1259134731#Misogyny_and_allegations_of_sexual_misconduct Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct]. Here are some of the positions where Trump has appointed women to cabinet positions in his next administration so far: Attorney general, Secretary of Homeland Security, Secretary of Labor, Director of National Intelligence, United Nations Ambassador, Secretary of Education, Surgeon General.[https://web.archive.org/web/20241123140506/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/us/politics/trump-administration-cabinet-appointees.html] I don't know of any sources so far that reconcile the characterization of Trump as a misogynist and his cabinet appointments of women, and suggest we be on the lookout for such sources so that the article can be appropriately edited. Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 17:43, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Bob, this is a &quot;I have black friends so I can't be racist!&quot; fallacy, as women can be misogynist too. It is not a prejudice exclusive to men. But even beyond that, the president-elect nominating women to his administration does not counterbalance his past words and deeds that numerous reliable sources have characterized as misogynist. {{tq|I don't know of any sources...and suggest we be on the lookout for such sources}} suggests that you have already formed a personal opinion about content to add to a BLP, and hope it can someday be validated. That is literally a textbook example of [[confirmation bias]] . [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 18:11, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::This being said there is an issue in misogyny being in wikivoice while every other prejudice/label is attributed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Well, to be fair, this does just seem like opinion not fact. This isn't supposed to be gossip. Certainly some think he is sexist. But some think he isn't and Wikipedia isn't really supposed to be elevating particular opinions over others. The allegations/liability in sexual misconduct is fact, that bit is solid. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 23:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Actions == Not living in the US, I'm not very knowledgeable about American politics, so it seems fair to ask users to list below all the racist, misogynist, etc. ACTIONS that Trump has committed (I see many controversial phrases said by him, but not racist, misogynistic, etc. actions); in reply to [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259151827]. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 17:52, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == There is no evidence Trump is misogynist == Sure, he called certain women horseface, low life on the campaign trail, but not women in general. There is no evidence Trump is misogynist, which would require him calling all women in general certain derogatory phrases. [[Special:Contributions/216.165.197.66|216.165.197.66]] ([[User talk:216.165.197.66|talk]]) 19:49, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flora,_Indiana&diff=1259236414</id> <title>Flora, Indiana</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flora,_Indiana&diff=1259236414"/> <updated>2024-11-24T03:03:07Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: ce <hr /> <div>{{For|the unincorporated community in Miami County|Flora, Miami County, Indiana}} {{Infobox settlement |official_name = Flora, Indiana |nickname = The Garden Spot of Indiana |settlement_type = [[Town]] |image_skyline = Center from Columbia in Flora.jpg |image_caption = Center Street downtown |image_map = File:Carroll County Indiana Incorporated and Unincorporated areas Flora Highlighted 1823692.svg |mapsize = 250px |map_caption = Location of Flora in Carroll County, Indiana. |image_map1 = |mapsize1 = |map_caption1 = |subdivision_type = [[List of sovereign states|Country]] |subdivision_name = United States |area_note = |subdivision_type1 = [[U.S. state|State]] |subdivision_name1 = [[Indiana]] |subdivision_type2 = [[List of counties in Indiana|County]] |subdivision_name2 = [[Carroll County, Indiana|Carroll]] |subdivision_type3 = [[List of townships in Indiana|Township]] |subdivision_name3 = [[Monroe Township, Carroll County, Indiana|Monroe]] |government_type = |leader_title = |leader_name = |established_date = |population_footnotes = |population_as_of = [[2020 United States Census|2020]] |population_est = |pop_est_as_of = |population_note = |population_total = 2094 |population_density_sq_mi = 1824.04 |population_density_km2 = 704.27 |timezone = [[North American Eastern Time Zone|EST]] |utc_offset = -5 |timezone_DST = [[North American Eastern Time Zone|EST]] |utc_offset_DST = -5 |area_land_km2 = 2.97 |area_water_km2 = 0.00 |area_footnotes = &lt;ref name=&quot;CenPopGazetteer2020&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=2020 U.S. Gazetteer Files|url=https://www2.census.gov/geo/docs/maps-data/data/gazetteer/2020_Gazetteer/2020_gaz_place_18.txt|publisher=United States Census Bureau|accessdate=March 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; |area_total_km2 = 2.97 |area_total_sq_mi = 1.15 |area_land_sq_mi = 1.15 |area_water_sq_mi = 0.00 |elevation_footnotes = &lt;ref name=gnis/&gt; |elevation_ft = 702 |coordinates = {{coord|40|32|44|N|86|31|21|W|region:US_type:city|display=inline,title}} |postal_code_type = [[ZIP code]] |postal_code = 46929 |area_code = [[Area code 574|574]] |blank_name = [[Federal Information Processing Standard|FIPS code]] |blank_info = 18-23692&lt;ref name=&quot;GR2&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.census.gov |publisher=[[United States Census Bureau]] |access-date=2008-01-31 |title=U.S. Census website }}&lt;/ref&gt; |blank1_name = [[Geographic Names Information System|GNIS]] feature ID |blank1_info = 2396940&lt;ref name=gnis&gt;{{GNIS|2396940}}&lt;/ref&gt; |footnotes = |website = http://www.townofflora.org/ |unit_pref = Imperial }} '''Flora''' is a town in [[Monroe Township, Carroll County, Indiana]], United States. The population was 2,036 at the [[2010 United States Census|2010 census]]. It is part of the [[Lafayette, Indiana]] [[Lafayette, Indiana metropolitan area|Metropolitan Statistical Area]]. ==History== [[Image:Flora, Indiana historical marker.png|thumb|left|upright|The town's historical marker.]] A post office was established at Flora in 1873.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.postalhistory.com/postoffices.asp?task=display&amp;state=IN&amp;county=Carroll |title=Carroll County |publisher=Jim Forte Postal History |access-date=28 August 2014 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140903095320/http://www.postalhistory.com/postoffices.asp?task=display&amp;state=IN&amp;county=Carroll |archive-date=3 September 2014 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Flora was named for its founder, John Flora.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last=Baker|first=Ronald L.|title=From Needmore to Prosperity: Hoosier Place Names in Folklore and History|url=https://archive.org/details/fromneedmoretopr00bake|url-access=registration|date=October 1995|publisher=Indiana University Press|isbn=978-0-253-32866-3|page=[https://archive.org/details/fromneedmoretopr00bake/page/n150 133]|quote=This town was laid out in 1872 by John Flora...}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Geography== According to the 2010 census, Flora has a total area of {{convert|1.06|sqmi|sqkm|2}}, all land.&lt;ref name=&quot;census-g001&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url=http://factfinder.census.gov/bkmk/table/1.0/en/DEC/10_SF1/G001/1600000US1823692 |title=G001 - Geographic Identifiers - 2010 Census Summary File 1 |access-date=2015-07-16 |publisher=[[United States Census Bureau]] |archive-url=https://archive.today/20200213083249/http://factfinder.census.gov/bkmk/table/1.0/en/DEC/10_SF1/G001/1600000US1823692 |archive-date=2020-02-13 |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Demographics== {{US Census population |1880= 224 |1890= 639 |1900= 1209 |1910= 1386 |1920= 1441 |1930= 1449 |1940= 1468 |1950= 1657 |1960= 1742 |1970= 1877 |1980= 2303 |1990= 2179 |2000= 2227 |2010= 2036 |2020= 2094 |footnote=U.S. Decennial Census&lt;ref name=&quot;DecennialCensus&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/decennial-census.html|title=Census of Population and Housing|publisher=Census.gov|access-date=June 4, 2015}}&lt;/ref&gt; }} ===2010 census=== As of the [[census]]&lt;ref name =&quot;wwwcensusgov&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=U.S. Census website|url=https://www.census.gov|publisher=[[United States Census Bureau]]|access-date=2012-12-11}}&lt;/ref&gt; of 2010, there were 2,036 people, 858 households, and 549 families living in the town. The [[population density]] was {{convert|1920.8|PD/sqmi|PD/km2|1}}. There were 969 housing units at an average density of {{convert|914.2|/sqmi|/km2|1}}. The racial makeup of the town was 97.5% [[White (U.S. Census)|White]], 0.3% [[African American (U.S. Census)|African American]], 1.1% from [[Race (U.S. Census)|other races]], and 0.9% from two or more races. [[Hispanic (U.S. Census)|Hispanic]] or [[Latino (U.S. Census)|Latino]] of any race were 2.6% of the population. There were 858 households, of which 30.5% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 48.7% were [[Marriage|married couples]] living together, 10.8% had a female householder with no husband present, 4.4% had a male householder with no wife present, and 36.0% were non-families. 31.7% of all households were made up of individuals, and 17.8% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.37 and the average family size was 2.96. The median age in the town was 40.4 years. 25.5% of residents were under the age of 18; 7.3% were between the ages of 18 and 24; 22.2% were from 25 to 44; 25.8% were from 45 to 64; and 19.2% were 65 years of age or older. The gender makeup of the town was 46.8% male and 53.2% female. ===2000 census=== As of the [[census]]&lt;ref name=&quot;GR2&quot; /&gt; of 2000, there were 2,227 people, 906 households, and 609 families living in the town. The population density was {{convert|2,157.4|PD/sqmi|PD/km2|sp=us|adj=off}}. There were 959 housing units at an average density of {{convert|929.0|/sqmi|/km2|sp=us|adj=off}}. The racial makeup of the town was 98.16% [[White (U.S. Census)|White]], 0.54% [[African American (U.S. Census)|African American]], 0.04% [[Native American (U.S. Census)|Native American]], 0.04% [[Pacific Islander (U.S. Census)|Pacific Islander]], 0.85% from [[Race (United States Census)|other races]], and 0.36% from two or more races. [[Hispanic (U.S. Census)|Hispanic]] or [[Latino (U.S. Census)|Latino]] of any race were 2.02% of the population. There were 906 households, out of which 29.4% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 53.8% were [[Marriage|married couples]] living together, 9.6% had a female householder with no husband present, and 32.7% were non-families. 29.4% of all households were made up of individuals, and 15.6% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.36 and the average family size was 2.91. In the town, the population was spread out, with 23.6% under the age of 18, 8.6% from 18 to 24, 26.4% from 25 to 44, 19.9% from 45 to 64, and 21.5% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 39 years. For every 100 females there were 83.9 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 79.5 males. The median income for a household in the town was $37,400, and the median income for a family was $43,257. Males had a median income of $35,398 versus $20,281 for females. The [[per capita income]] for the town was $18,863. About 4.4% of families and 6.3% of the population were below the [[poverty line]], including 9.9% of those under age 18 and 7.4% of those age 65 or over. ==Education== The town has a free lending library, the Flora-Monroe Township Public Library.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web | url=http://www.carrollcountyindiana.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=181&amp;Itemid=144 | title=Libraries | publisher=Carroll County, IN | access-date=4 March 2018 | archive-date=4 March 2018 | archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180304172803/http://www.carrollcountyindiana.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=181&amp;Itemid=144 | url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt; == Notable people == * [[Paul S. Dunkin]], writer, librarian and professor. ==References== {{Reflist}} ==External links== {{commons cat}} * [http://www.townofflora.org Town website] {{Carroll County, Indiana}} {{Authority control}} [[Category:Towns in Carroll County, Indiana]] [[Category:1872 establishments in Indiana]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jade_Jagger&diff=1259236269</id> <title>Jade Jagger</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jade_Jagger&diff=1259236269"/> <updated>2024-11-24T03:01:29Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{EngvarB|date=July 2023}} {{short description|British designer and former model}} {{Use dmy dates|date=July 2023}} {{Infobox person | name = Jade Jagger | image = Jade Jagger (3486897300) (cropped).jpg | caption = Jagger in April 2009 | birth_name = Jade Sheena Jezebel Jagger | birth_date = {{Birth date and age|df=yes|1971|10|21}} | birth_place = [[Paris]], France | nationality = British | height = | years_active = 1996–present | occupation = Jewellery designer, artist, interior designer | partner = Piers Jackson (1990–1999) | spouse = {{marriage|Adrian Fillary|2012}} | children = 3 | parents = [[Bianca Jagger]] (mother)&lt;br&gt; [[Mick Jagger]] (father) | relatives = [[Elizabeth Jagger]] (half-sister)&lt;br&gt; [[Georgia May Jagger]] (half-sister)&lt;br&gt; [[Chris Jagger]] (uncle)&lt;br /&gt; }} '''Jade Sheena Jezebel Jagger''' (born 21 October 1971) is a British [[jewellery designer]], home designer, and former model. She is the daughter of Rolling Stones lead singer [[Mick Jagger]], and 1970s fashion model&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/g5648/bianca-jagger-style/|title=In Photos: Bianca Jagger's Iconic Style|last=Algoo|first=Jennifer|date=1 May 2015|website=Harper's BAZAAR|language=en-US|access-date=19 October 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; and human rights advocate [[Bianca Jagger]]. == Early life == Jagger was born on 21 October 1971 at Belvedere Nursing Home in Paris, the only child of rock star [[Mick Jagger]] and his first wife, [[Bianca Jagger]]. Her parents divorced when she was a child.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.bellable.com/es/profile/jade-jagger-2/|title=Jade Jagger|date=3 May 2019|website=Bellable En Español|language=es-ES|access-date=15 February 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|last=Andersen|first=Christopher|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=vY5-V0OJ9fUC&amp;dq=Belvedere+Nursing+Home+paris&amp;pg=PT156|title=Mick: The Wild Life and Mad Genius of Jagger|date=10 July 2012|publisher=Simon and Schuster|isbn=978-1-4516-6146-0|language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; She is of English and [[Nicaraguan people|Nicaraguan]] ancestry. Jagger is the paternal half-sister of Karis Hunt Jagger (born 1970), [[Elizabeth Jagger|Elizabeth Scarlett Jagger]] (born 1984), James Leroy Augustin Jagger (born 1985), [[Georgia May Jagger|Georgia May Ayeesha Jagger]] (born 1992), Gabriel Luke Beauregard Jagger (born 1997), Lucas Maurice Morad-Jagger (born 1999), and Deveraux Octavian Basil Jagger (born 2016).&lt;ref name=&quot;Guardian&quot; /&gt; == Career == In 1996, Jagger launched Jade Inc., an integrated jewellery and fashion brand,&lt;ref name=&quot;Independent&quot;&gt;[http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/celebrity-news-gossip/jade-jagger-i-am-not-a-trustfund-child-2586403.html &quot;Jade Jagger: 'I am not a trust-fund child'&quot;]. ''The Independent''. 20 March 2011. Retrieved 21 March 2011.&lt;/ref&gt; and in 2001 she began working as the Creative Director for [[Garrard &amp; Co|Garrard]], an English company dealing in high-end jewellery. She worked there until 2006 and now promotes a 'lifestyle concept' called &quot;Jezebel&quot; (her middle name), which fuses music, clothing, and lifestyle through original recordings, remixes, unplugged sessions, and fashion.&lt;ref name=&quot;Independent&quot; /&gt; She also has worked as a lingerie model.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://celebrity.rightpundits.com/?p=3748 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080521013249/http://celebrity.rightpundits.com/?p=3748 |url-status=dead |archive-date=21 May 2008 |title=Jade Jagger |publisher=Celebrity.rightpundits.com |date=18 May 2008 |access-date=5 May 2011 }}&lt;/ref&gt; She has also designed apartments all over the world, including a tower of luxury residences called &quot;Jade&quot; in New York, and another in [[Mumbai]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Independent&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Guardian&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Dearen |first1=Mary |title=Giorgio Armani, Jade Jagger design lifestyle for apartment dwellers |url=https://www.mrt.com/news/article/Giorgio-Armani-Jade-Jagger-design-lifestyle-for-7569355.php |access-date=16 April 2019 |work=[[Midland Reporter-Telegram]] |date=4 January 2007}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2001 she appeared in ''[[Being Mick]]'', a documentary chronicling a year in the life of her father. In 2008 Jagger's career was revived, courtesy of Belvedere. Best known in accessory circles for her time as creative director at Garrard, Jagger created the &quot;Jagger Dagger&quot;, a sword with an 18-carat white gold hilt studded with {{convert|12|carat|g}} of brilliant-cut diamonds, 42 pale sapphires, and inlaid with a central blue lapis lazuli square.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.fashionweekdaily.com/parties/fullstory.sps?inewsid=547821 |title=Jade Jagger &amp; Belvedere create the &quot;Jagger Dagger&quot; |publisher=Fashionweekdaily.com |access-date=5 May 2011 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20091216065521/http://www.fashionweekdaily.com/parties/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=547821 |archive-date=16 December 2009 }}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2009, Jagger was featured in an in-depth video clip for ''Observer Women's Magazine'', sharing one of her creations, something she refers to as her &quot;artwork&quot;, a &quot;ribbon bracelet&quot; which features some &quot;easily available household things&quot; such as; a &quot;skull and wings&quot;, a tiny &quot;palm tree, sort of reminds me of my home in [[Ibiza]]&quot;, a bunch of safety pins, &quot;funky little bits and bobs&quot;, e.g. a little key trinket.&lt;ref name=&quot;Guardian&quot;&gt;{{cite news | url =https://www.theguardian.com/business/2005/jan/16/theobserver.observerbusiness23 | work=The Guardian| access-date =25 February 2008 | location=London | title=But can Jade always get what she wants? | first=Nick | last=Mathiason | date=16 January 2005}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2011, Jagger was appointed for the designing of Lodha Group's Fiorenza project in Mumbai's [[Goregaon]] suburb. Blending India's rich and varied traditions with unique cultural elements from across the world, the development is expected to provide residents with the finest in fashionable living.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Thakur|first=Pooja|title=Jagger's Daughter, Jade, to Design Homes in Mumbai|url=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-17/mick-jagger-s-daughter-jade-to-design-homes-in-mumbai-suburb.html|access-date=22 December 2013|newspaper=[[Bloomberg News]]|date=18 February 2011}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Phadnis|first=Shilpa|title=Realtors add designer touch to luxury living|url=http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-24/india-business/31392066_1_designers-residential-project-interiors|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131224122233/http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-24/india-business/31392066_1_designers-residential-project-interiors|url-status=dead|archive-date=24 December 2013|access-date=22 December 2013|newspaper=[[The Times of India]]|date=24 April 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Personal life == While preparing for her [[GCE Advanced Level|A-Levels]] at [[Cambridge Centre for Sixth-form Studies]] in 1988, Jagger began a relationship with classmate Piers Jackson.&lt;ref&gt;[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/jade-jagger-turbulence-in-first-class-435875.html &quot;Jade Jagger: Turbulence in first class&quot;]. ''The Independent''. 11 February 2007.&lt;/ref&gt; She and Piers have two daughters, Assisi Lola Jackson (born 1992) and Amba Isis Jackson (born 1996). In 2004 Jagger began dating DJ Dan Williams. There were reports that they married in February 2009 but she has denied this.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| first=Lesley-Anne |last=Henry | url=http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/fashion-beauty/jade-jagger-loves-the-naughty-belfast-look-14428686.html |title=Jade Jagger loves the 'naughty' Belfast look |work= Belfast Telegraph|date=24 July 2009 |access-date=30 June 2012 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Jagger married graphic designer/art director Adrian Fillary at [[Aynhoe Park]], [[Northamptonshire]], on 30 June 2012. They have a son, Ray Emmanuel Fillary (born 2014).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Duffin|first=Claire|title=Jade Jagger marries at DJ fiancé at Cotswolds country house|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9367360/Jade-Jagger-marries-at-DJ-fiance-at-Cotswolds-country-house.html|work=The Daily Telegraph|access-date=30 June 2012|date=30 June 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; Jagger became a grandmother on 19 May 2014, when her daughter Assisi gave birth to a daughter, Ezra Key. On 28 March 2019 Assisi gave birth to a second daughter, Romy Pearl Ciara Key.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Alex key on Instagram: &quot;Romy Pearl Ciara Key 28.03.19 so proud @assisijackson thanks so much @jadejezebeljagger . X&quot;|url=https://www.instagram.com/p/Bvt5abbgfnx/ |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/iarchive/s/instagram/Bvt5abbgfnx |archive-date=24 December 2021 |url-access=limited|access-date=15 October 2020|website=Instagram|language=en}}{{cbignore}}&lt;/ref&gt; Jagger was arrested in 2023 in Ibiza, Spain on charges of attacking police officers.&lt;ref&gt;https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/mick-jaggers-daughter-jade-arrested-ibiza-2023-05-18/&lt;/ref&gt; == References == {{reflist}} == External links == * {{IMDb name|id=1328977 | name=Jade Jagger}} * [http://www.jadenyc.com/ Jade 16 West 19th Street, New York, NY (condo building)] *{{fashiondesigner|id=jade-jagger}} * [https://web.archive.org/web/20100709201912/http://living.tendencias.tv/jadejaggerplane A plane designed by Jade Jagger. by Tendenciastv] * [http://www.yoo.com/ Jade Jagger for yoo] * [http://www.style.com/peopleparties/search/thumb/person473/ Jagger Photos at Style.com] {{Mick Jagger|state=collapsed}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Jagger, Jade}} [[Category:1971 births]] [[Category:British artists]] [[Category:British female models]] [[Category:British people of Australian descent]] [[Category:British people of Nicaraguan descent]] [[Category:British socialites]] [[Category:British jewellery designers]] [[Category:Living people]] [[Category:Mick Jagger]] [[Category:People educated at the Cambridge Centre for Sixth-form Studies]] [[Category:People educated at St Mary's School, Calne]] [[Category:People from Chelsea, London]] [[Category:Spence School alumni]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Stalin&diff=1259235625</id> <title>Joseph Stalin</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Stalin&diff=1259235625"/> <updated>2024-11-24T02:55:49Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: why do we need to specify that? <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Leader of the Soviet Union from 1924 to 1953}} {{Redirect|Stalin}} {{Pp-semi-indef}} {{Pp-move}} {{Family name hatnote|Vissarionovich|Stalin|lang=Eastern Slavic}} {{Good article}} {{Use British English|date=October 2024}} {{Use dmy dates|date=May 2024}} {{Infobox officeholder | honorific_prefix = &lt;!--Do not put Generalissimo here, it is not an honorific but a rank--&gt; | name = Joseph Stalin | native_name = {{Plainlist| * {{langn|ru|Иосиф Сталин}} * {{langn|ka|იოსებ სტალინი}} }} | image = StalinCropped1943.jpg&lt;!--Do not change, see [[Talk:Joseph Stalin/Archive 24#infobox image (2023) #2]].--&gt; | caption = Stalin at the [[Tehran Conference]], 1943 | office = [[General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union]] | term_start = 3 April 1922 | term_end = 16 October 1952{{Efn|The office of General Secretary was abolished in 1952, but Stalin continued to exercise its powers as the highest-ranking member of the party [[Secretariat of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union|Secretariat]].}} | predecessor = [[Vyacheslav Molotov]] {{Avoid wrap|(as Responsible Secretary)}} | successor = [[Nikita Khrushchev]] {{Avoid wrap|(as First Secretary)}} | office2 = [[Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Soviet Union]]{{Efn|Before 1946, the title of the office was [[Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of the Soviet Union|Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars]].}} | 1blankname2 = First Deputy | 1namedata2 = {{ubl|[[Nikolai Voznesensky]]|Vyacheslav Molotov|[[Nikolai Bulganin]]}} | term_start2 = 6 May 1941 | term_end2 = 5 March 1953 | predecessor2 = Vyacheslav Molotov | successor2 = [[Georgy Malenkov]] | office3 = [[Minister of Defence (Soviet Union)|Minister of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union]]{{Efn|Before 1946, the title of the office was People's Commissar for Defence, and briefly People's Commissar for the Armed Forces.}} | 1blankname3 = Premier | 1namedata3 = ''Himself'' | term_start3 = 19 July 1941 | term_end3 = 3 March 1947 | predecessor3 = [[Semyon Timoshenko]] | successor3 = Nikolai Bulganin | office4 = [[People's Commissariat for Nationalities|People's Commissar for Nationalities of the Russian&amp;nbsp;SFSR]] | 1blankname4 = Premier | 1namedata4 = [[Vladimir Lenin]] | term_start4 = 8 November 1917 | term_end4 = 7 July 1923 | predecessor4 = ''Office established'' | successor4 = ''Office abolished'' | birth_name = Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili | birth_date = {{OldStyleDate|18 December|1878|6 December}} | birth_place = [[Gori, Georgia|Gori]], Russian Empire | death_date = {{Death date and age|1953|3|5|1878|12|18|df=y}} | death_place = [[Moscow]], Soviet Union | resting_place = {{Plainlist| * [[Lenin's Mausoleum]], Moscow (1953–1961) * [[Kremlin Wall Necropolis]], Moscow (since 1961) }} | party = {{Plainlist| [[CPSU]]{{Refn|group=lower-alpha|Founded as the RSDLP(b) in 1912; renamed the RCP(b) in 1918, AUCP(b) in 1925, and CPSU in 1952.}} (from 1912) }} | spouse = {{Plainlist| * {{Marriage|[[Kato Svanidze|Ekaterine Svanidze]]|1906|1907|end=died}} * {{Marriage|[[Nadezhda Alliluyeva]]|1919|1932|end=died}} }} | children = {{Plainlist| * [[Yakov Dzhugashvili]] * [[Vasily Stalin]] * [[Artyom Sergeyev]] (adopted) * [[Svetlana Alliluyeva]] }} | parents = {{Plainlist| * [[Besarion Jughashvili]] * [[Keke Geladze|Ekaterine Geladze]] }} | alma_mater = [[Tiflis Theological Seminary]] | awards = ''[[List of awards and honours bestowed upon Joseph Stalin|Full list]]'' | signature = Stalin Signature.svg | nickname = Koba | allegiance = {{Plainlist| * [[Soviet Russia]] * [[Soviet Union]] }} | branch_label = Branch | branch = [[Red Army]] | serviceyears = 1918–1920 | rank = [[Generalissimo of the Soviet Union|Generalissimo]] (from 1945) | commands = [[Soviet Armed Forces]] (from 1941) | battles = * [[Russian Civil War]] * [[Polish–Soviet War]] * [[Soviet Union in World War II|World War II]] | module2 = {{Collapsible list | title = Central institution membership | titlestyle = background: lavender | bullets = on | 1917–1953: Full member, [[Inner-composition of the 6th Congress of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party (Bolsheviks)|6th]]–[[Politburo of the 18th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)|18th]] Politburo and [[19th Presidium of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union|19th]] Presidium of CPSU | 1922–1953: Full member, [[Secretariat of the 11th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks)|11th]]–[[Secretariat of the 19th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union|19th]] Secretariat of CPSU | 1920–1952: Full member, [[Politburo, Secretariat and Orgburo of the 9th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks)|9th]]–[[Orgburo of the 18th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)|18th]] Orgburo of CPSU | 1912–1953: Full member, [[Central Committee of the 5th Congress of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party|5th]]–[[Central Committee of the 19th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union|19th]] Central Committee of CPSU | 1918–1919: Full member, 2nd Central Committee of [[CP(b)U]] }} ---- {{Collapsible list | title = Other offices held | titlestyle = background: lavender | bullets = on | 1941–1945: Chairman, [[State Defense Committee]] of the Soviet&amp;nbsp;Union | 1920–1922: [[Rabkrin|People's Commissar for Workers' and Peasants' Inspection]] of the Russian&amp;nbsp;SFSR | 1919–1920: People's Commissar for State Control of the Russian&amp;nbsp;SFSR | 1917–1918: Member of the [[Russian Constituent Assembly]] for [[Petrograd Metropolis electoral district (Russian Constituent Assembly election, 1917)|Petrograd Metropolis]] }} | module3 = '''[[Leader of the Soviet Union]]''' {{Flatlist| * {{Big|←}} [[Lenin]] * [[Malenkov]]{{Efn|While forced to give up control of the Secretariat almost immediately after succeeding Stalin as the body's de facto head, Malenkov was still recognised as &quot;[[first among equals]]&quot; within the regime for over a year. As late as March 1954, he remained listed as first in the Soviet leadership and continued to chair meetings of the [[Politburo of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union|Politburo]].}}{{Big|→}} }} | occupation = &lt;!-- Politician --&gt; | module = {{Listen|pos=center|embed=yes|filename=Stalin announcing German surrender.ogg|title=Joseph Stalin's voice|type=speech|description=May 1945 announcement of [[German Instrument of Surrender|German capitulation]]}} | otherparty = {{Plainlist| *[[RSDLP]] (1898{{snd}}1912; [[Bolshevik]] faction from 1903) }} }} &lt;!--Basic introduction; name, dates, why he was notable--&gt; '''Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin'''{{Efn|{{lang-rus|Иосиф Виссарионович Сталин|italics=no|translit=Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin}} {{IPA|rus|ɪˈosʲɪf vʲɪssərʲɪˈonəvʲɪtɕ ˈstalʲɪn|label=|audio=Ru-Stalin.ogg}}; {{lang-ka|იოსებ ბესარიონის ძე სტალინი|translit=Ioseb Besarionis dze Stalini}} }} (born '''Dzhugashvili''';{{Efn|name=&quot;birth_name&quot;|Stalin's birth name was '''Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili''' ({{lang|ka|იოსებ ბესარიონის ძე ჯუღაშვილი}}), represented in Russian as '''Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili''' ({{lang|ru|Иосиф Виссарионович Джугашвили}}; [[Reforms of Russian orthography#Post-revolution reform|pre-1918]]: {{lang|ru|Іосифъ Виссаріоновичъ Джугашвили}}). He adopted the alias &quot;Stalin&quot; during his revolutionary career, and made it his legal name after the [[October Revolution]].}} {{OldStyleDate|18 December|1878|6 December}}{{snd}}5 March 1953) was a Soviet&lt;!--Do NOT change nationality without new consensus on the talk page.--&gt; politician and revolutionary who led the [[Soviet Union]] from 1924 until [[Death and state funeral of Joseph Stalin|his death]] in 1953. He held power as [[General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union|General Secretary of the Communist Party]] from 1922 to 1952 and as [[Premier of the Soviet Union|Chairman of the Council of Ministers]] from 1941 until his death. Initially governing as part of a [[Collective leadership in the Soviet Union|collective leadership]], Stalin consolidated power to become a [[dictator]] by the 1930s. He codified his [[Leninist]] interpretation of [[Marxism]] as [[Marxism–Leninism]], while the [[totalitarian]] political system he established became known as [[Stalinism]]. &lt;!--Early life, revolutionary activity and rise to power--&gt; Born into a poor Georgian family in [[Gori, Georgia|Gori]], [[Russian Empire]], Stalin attended the [[Tiflis Theological Seminary]] before joining the Marxist [[Russian Social Democratic Labour Party]]. He raised funds for [[Vladimir Lenin]]'s [[Bolshevik]] faction through robberies, kidnappings and [[protection racket]]s, and edited the party's newspaper, ''[[Pravda]]''. Repeatedly arrested, he underwent internal exiles to [[Siberia]]. After the Bolsheviks seized power in the [[October Revolution]] of 1917, Stalin joined the governing [[Politburo of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union|Politburo]], and following [[Death and state funeral of Vladimir Lenin|Lenin's death in 1924]], [[Joseph Stalin's rise to power|won the struggle to lead the country]]. Under Stalin, the doctrine of [[socialism in one country]] became central to the [[Ideology of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union|party's ideology]]. His [[Five-year plans of the Soviet Union|five-year plans]], launched in 1928, led to [[Collectivisation in the Soviet Union|agricultural collectivisation]] and [[Industrialisation in the Soviet Union|rapid industrialisation]], establishing a centralised [[Planned economy|command economy]]. Resulting disruptions to food production contributed to [[Soviet famine of 1932–1933|a famine in 1932–1933]] which killed millions, including in the [[Holodomor]] in Ukraine. Between 1936 and 1938, Stalin eradicated his political opponents and those deemed &quot;[[enemies of the working class]]&quot; in the [[Great Purge]], after which he had absolute control of the party and government. Under his regime, an estimated 18 million people passed through the [[Gulag]] system of [[forced labour camps]], and more than six million were [[Population transfer in the Soviet Union|deported to remote regions of the Soviet Union]], which together resulted in millions of deaths. &lt;!--Governance in the latter part of the 1930s and [[World War II]]--&gt; Stalin promoted Marxism–Leninism abroad through the [[Communist International]] and supported European [[anti-fascist]] movements, including in the [[Spanish Civil War]]. In 1939, his government signed the [[Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact]] with [[Nazi Germany]], enabling the [[Soviet invasion of Poland]]. Germany broke the pact by [[Operation Barbarossa|invading the Soviet Union]] in 1941, leading Stalin to join the [[Allies of World War II]]. Despite huge losses, the Soviet [[Red Army]] repelled the German invasion and [[Battle of Berlin|captured Berlin]] in 1945, ending [[World War II in Europe|the war in Europe]]. The Soviet Union, which had [[Occupation of the Baltic states|annexed the Baltic states]] and territories [[Moscow Armistice|from Finland]] and [[Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina|Romania]] amid the war, established [[Eastern Bloc|Soviet-aligned states]] in Central and Eastern Europe. The Soviet Union and the United States emerged as global [[superpower]]s, and entered a period of tension known as the [[Cold War]]. Stalin presided over post-war reconstruction and the [[Soviet atomic bomb project|first Soviet atomic bomb test]] in 1949. During these years, the country experienced [[Soviet famine of 1946–1947|another famine]] and a state-sponsored [[Antisemitism in the Soviet Union|antisemitic]] campaign culminating in the &quot;[[doctors' plot]]&quot;. In 1953, Stalin died after suffering a stroke, and was succeeded as leader by [[Georgy Malenkov]] and later by [[Nikita Khrushchev]], who in 1956 [[On the Cult of Personality and Its Consequences|denounced Stalin's rule]] and initiated a campaign of &quot;[[de-Stalinisation]]&quot;. &lt;!--Recognition and legacy--&gt; Widely considered one of the 20th century's most significant figures, Stalin was the subject of a pervasive [[Stalin's cult of personality|personality cult]] within the international Marxist–Leninist movement, which revered him as a champion of [[Socialist mode of production|socialism]] and the working class. Since the [[dissolution of the Soviet Union]] in 1991, Stalin has retained a degree of popularity in [[post-Soviet states]] as an economic moderniser and victorious wartime leader who cemented the Soviet Union as a major world power. Conversely, his regime has been widely condemned for overseeing [[Political repression in the Soviet Union|mass repressions]], [[ethnic cleansing]], and famines which [[Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin|caused the deaths of millions]]. &lt;!--please do not remove, for ToC spacing--&gt; {{TOC limit|limit=3}} ==Early life== {{Main|Early life of Joseph Stalin}} === 1878–1899: Childhood to young adulthood === [[File:Stalin 1893-1.1.2 detail.jpg|left|thumb|upright=0.8|Stalin (&quot;I. Dzhugashvili&quot;) in an 1893 class photo]] Stalin was born on {{OldStyleDate|18 December|1878|6 December}}{{efn|According to church records, Stalin was born on {{OldStyleDate|18 December|1878|6 December}}. This birth date is maintained in all surviving pre-Revolution documents, and as late as 1921, Stalin himself listed his birthday as 18 December 1878. After coming to power, Stalin gave his birth date as {{OldStyleDate|21 December|1879|9 December}}. This became the day his birthday was celebrated in the Soviet Union.{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=23}}}} in [[Gori, Georgia|Gori]], [[Georgia within the Russian Empire|Georgia]],{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=2|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=11}} then part of the [[Tiflis Governorate]] of the [[Russian Empire]].{{sfn|Service|2004|p=15}}{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=14|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=23}} An ethnic [[Georgians|Georgian]], his birth name was Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili ([[Russified]] as Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili).{{efn|name=&quot;birth_name&quot;}} His parents were [[Besarion Jughashvili]] and [[Keke Geladze|Ekaterine Geladze]];{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=1–2|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=5|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=14|4a1=Montefiore|4y=2007|4p=19|5a1=Khlevniuk|5y=2015|5p=11|6a1=Deutscher|6y=1966|6p=26}} Stalin was their third child and the only one to survive past infancy.{{sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=5|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=16|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=22|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=17|5a1=Khlevniuk|5y=2015|5p=11}} After Besarion's shoemaking workshop went into decline, the family fell into poverty, and he became an alcoholic who beat his wife and son.{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=17|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=25|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=20|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=12}}{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=10|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=5|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=17|4a1=Montefiore|4y=2007|4p=29|5a1=Kotkin|5y=2014|5p=24|6a1=Khlevniuk|6y=2015|6p=12}} Ekaterine and her son left the home by 1883 and began wandering, moving through nine different rented rooms over the next decade.{{sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2007|1pp=30–31|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=20}} In 1888, Stalin enrolled at the Gori Church School{{sfn|Dović|Helgason|2019|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=nimVDwAAQBAJ&amp;dq=gori+church+school+orthodox&amp;pg=RA1-PA56 256]}} in a position secured by a family friend,{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=11|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=20|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3pp=32–34|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=21}} where he excelled academically.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=12|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=30|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=44|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=26}} He faced health problems: an 1884 [[smallpox]] infection left him with facial scars,{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=12|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=5|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=19|4a1=Montefiore|4y=2007|4p=31|5a1=Kotkin|5y=2014|5p=20}} and at age 12 he was seriously injured when he was struck by a [[Phaeton (carriage)|phaeton]], causing a lifelong disability in his left arm.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=12|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=25|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3pp=35, 46|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4pp=20–21}} [[File:The Orthodox Theological Seminary.jpg|thumb|left|Tiflis Theological Seminary, which Stalin attended from 1894 to 1899]] In 1894, Stalin enrolled as a trainee [[Russian Orthodox]] priest at the [[Tbilisi Theological Seminary|Tiflis Theological Seminary]], enabled by a scholarship.{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=28|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2pp=51–53|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=15}} He initially achieved high grades,{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=19|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=36|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=56|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=32|5a1=Khlevniuk|5y=2015|5p=16}} but lost interest in his studies{{sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2007|1p=69|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=32|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=18}} and was repeatedly confined to a cell for rebellious behaviour.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=19|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=69|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3pp=36–37|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=19}} After joining a forbidden book club,{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=19|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=62|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3pp=36, 37|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=18}} Stalin was influenced by [[Nikolay Chernyshevsky]]'s pro-revolutionary novel ''[[What Is To Be Done? (novel)|What Is To Be Done?]]''{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=63}} Another influential text was [[Alexander Kazbegi]]'s ''[[The Patricide]]'', with Stalin adopting the nickname &quot;Koba&quot; from its bandit protagonist.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=14|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=5|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3pp=27–28|4a1=Montefiore|4y=2007|4p=63|5a1=Kotkin|5y=2014|5pp=23–24|6a1=Khlevniuk|6y=2015|6p=17}} After reading his ''[[Das Kapital]]'', Stalin devoted himself to [[Karl Marx]]'s philosophy of [[Marxism]],{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=69}} which was on the rise as a variety of [[socialism]] opposed to the [[Tsarist autocracy|Tsarist authorities]].{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=40|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=43}} He began attending secret workers' meetings,{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=66}} and left the seminary in April 1899.{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=41|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=71}} === 1899–1905: Russian Social Democratic Labour Party === [[File:Stalin 1902.jpg|thumb|upright=.8|left|Police photo of Stalin, 1902]] In October 1899, Stalin began working as a meteorologist at the Tiflis observatory.{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=54|2a1=Conquest|2y=1991|2p=27|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3pp=43–44|4a1=Montefiore|4y=2007|4p=76|5a1=Kotkin|5y=2014|5pp=47–48}} He attracted a group of socialist supporters,{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=79}} and co-organised a secret workers' meeting{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=54|2a1=Conquest|2y=1991|2p=27|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=78}} at which he convinced many to take strike action on [[May Day]] 1900.{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=78}} The empire's secret police, the [[Okhrana]], became aware of Stalin's activities and attempted to arrest him in March 1901, but he went into hiding{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=27|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=45|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3pp=81–82|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=49}} and began living off donations from friends.{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=82}} He helped plan a demonstration in Tiflis on May Day 1901 at which 3,000 marchers clashed with the authorities.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=28|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=82|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=50}} In November 1901, Stalin was elected to the Tiflis Committee of the [[Russian Social Democratic Labour Party]] (RSDLP), a Marxist party founded in 1898.{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=63|2a1=Rieber|2y=2005|2pp=37–38|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3pp=87–88}} That month, Stalin travelled to [[Batumi]].{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=29|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=52|3a1=Rieber|3y=2005|3p=39|4a1=Montefiore|4y=2007|4p=101|5a1=Kotkin|5y=2014|5p=51}} His militant rhetoric proved divisive among the city's Marxists, some of whom suspected that he was an ''[[agent provocateur]]''.{{sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2007|1pp=91, 95|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=53}} Stalin began working at the [[Rothschild family|Rothschild]] refinery storehouse, where he co-organised two workers' strikes.{{sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2007|1pp=90–93|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=51|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3pp=22–23}} After the strike leaders were arrested, he co-organised a mass demonstration which led to the storming of the prison.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=29|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=49|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3pp=94–95|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=52|5a1=Khlevniuk|5y=2015|5p=23}} Stalin was arrested in April 1902{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=29|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=49|3a1=Rieber|3y=2005|3p=42|4a1=Montefiore|4y=2007|4p=98|5a1=Kotkin|5y=2014|5p=52}} and sentenced to three years of exile in [[Siberia]], arriving in [[Novaya Uda, Irkutsk Oblast|Novaya Uda]] in November 1903.{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=68|2a1=Conquest|2y=1991|2p=29|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=107|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=53|5a1=Khlevniuk|5y=2015|5p=23}} After one failed attempt, Stalin escaped from his exile in January 1904 and travelled to Tiflis,{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=52|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2pp=115–116|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=53}} where he co-edited the Marxist newspaper ''[[Proletariatis Brdzola]]'' (&quot;Proletarian Struggle&quot;) with [[Filipp Makharadze]].{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=57|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=123}} During his exile, the RSDLP had become divided between Vladimir Lenin's &quot;[[Bolsheviks|Bolshevik]]&quot; faction and [[Julius Martov]]'s &quot;[[Mensheviks]]&quot;.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=33–34|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=53|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=113|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4pp=78–79|5a1=Khlevniuk|5y=2015|5p=24}} Stalin, who detested many Mensheviks in Georgia, aligned himself with the Bolsheviks.{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=76|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=59|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=80|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=24}} === 1905–1912: Revolution of 1905 and aftermath === [[File:Lenin at Tampere.JPG|thumb|left|Stalin first met [[Vladimir Lenin]] at [[Tampere conference of 1905|a 1905 conference in Tampere, Finland]].]] In January 1905, government troops [[Bloody Sunday (1905)|massacred protesters]] in [[Saint Petersburg]] and unrest spread across the Empire in the [[Revolution of 1905]].{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=80|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=56|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=126}} Stalin was in [[Baku]] in February when [[Armenian–Tatar massacres of 1905–1907|ethnic violence]] broke out between Armenians and Azeris,{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=58|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2pp=128–129}} and formed Bolshevik &quot;battle squads&quot; which he used to keep the city's warring ethnic factions apart.{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=129}} His armed squads also attacked local police and troops,{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=132}} raided arsenals,{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=143}} and raised funds via [[protection racket]]s on large local businesses and mines.{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|pp=132–133}}{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=87|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2pp=135, 144}} In November 1905, the Georgian Bolsheviks elected Stalin as one of their delegates to a [[Tampere conference of 1905|Bolshevik conference in Tampere, Finland]],{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1pp=89–90|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=60|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=145}} where he met Lenin for the first time.{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=90|2a1=Conquest|2y=1991|2p=37|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=60|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=81}} Although Stalin held Lenin in deep respect, he vocally disagreed with his view that the Bolsheviks should field candidates for the [[1906 Russian legislative election|1906 election]] to the [[State Duma (Russian Empire)|State Duma]]; Stalin viewed parliamentary process as a waste of time.{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=92|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=147|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=105}} In April 1906, Stalin attended the [[4th Congress of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party|RSDLP's Fourth Congress]] in [[Stockholm]], where the party—then led by its Menshevik majority—agreed that it would not raise funds using armed robbery.{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=96|2a1=Conquest|2y=1991|2p=40|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=62|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=26}} Lenin and Stalin disagreed with this,{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=96|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=62|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=113}} and privately discussed continuing the robberies for the Bolshevik cause.{{sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2007|1p=168|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=113}}[[File:Stalin's Mug Shot.jpg|thumb|right|[[Mug shot|Mugshot]] of Stalin made in 1911]]Stalin married [[Kato Svanidze]] in July 1906,{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=64|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=159|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=105|4a1=Semeraro|4y=2017|4p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=bAXMDwAAQBAJ&amp;dq=Kato+Svanidze+stalin+orthodox+church+1906&amp;pg=PT87 ??]}} and in March 1907 she gave birth to their son [[Yakov Dzhugashvili|Yakov]].{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=64|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=167|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=106|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=25}} Stalin, who by now had established himself as &quot;Georgia's leading Bolshevik&quot;,{{sfn|Service|2004|p=65}} in June 1907 organised the [[1907 Tiflis bank robbery|robbery of a bank stagecoach in Tiflis]] in order to fund the Bolsheviks' activities. His gang ambushed the convoy in [[Freedom Square, Tbilisi|Erivansky Square]] with gunfire and home-made bombs; around 40 people were killed, but all his gang escaped.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=41–42|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=75|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=113}} Stalin settled in Baku with his wife and son,{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=100|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=180|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=114}} where Mensheviks confronted him about the robbery and voted to expel him from the RSDLP, but he ignored them.{{sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=100|2a1=Conquest|2y=1991|2pp=43–44|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=76|4a1=Montefiore|4y=2007|4p=184}} Stalin secured Bolshevik domination of Baku's RSDLP branch{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=190}} and edited two Bolshevik newspapers.{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=186}} In November 1907, his wife died of [[typhus]],{{sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2007|1p=191|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=115}} and he left his son with her family in Tiflis.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=44|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=71|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=193|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=116}} In Baku he reassembled his gang,{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=194}} which attacked [[Black Hundreds]] and raised money through racketeering, counterfeiting, robberies{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=74|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=196|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=115}} and kidnapping the children of wealthy figures for ransom.{{sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2007|1pp=197–198|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=115}} In March 1908, Stalin was arrested and imprisoned in Baku.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=44|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=68|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=203|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=116}} He led the imprisoned Bolsheviks, organised discussion groups, and ordered the killing of suspected informants.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=45|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2pp=203–204}} He was sentenced to two years of exile in [[Solvychegodsk]] in northern Russia, arriving there in February 1909.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=45|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=68|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3pp=206, 208|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=116}} In June, Stalin escaped to Saint Petersburg,{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=46|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=212|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=117}} but was arrested again in March 1910 and sent back to Solvychegodsk.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=46|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2pp=222, 226|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=121}} In June 1911, Stalin was given permission to move to [[Vologda]], where he stayed for two months.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=47|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=80|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3pp=231, 234|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=121}} He then escaped to Saint Petersburg,{{sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2007|1p=236|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=121}} where he was arrested again in September 1911 and sentenced to a further three years of exile in Vologda.{{sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2007|1p=237|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2pp=121–22}} === 1912–1917: Rise to the Central Committee and ''Pravda'' === [[File:First Issue of PRAVDA.jpg|thumb|right|First issue of ''[[Pravda]]'', of which Stalin served as an early editor]] In January 1912, the first [[Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union|Bolshevik Central Committee]] was elected at the [[Prague Conference]].{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=83|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2pp=122–123}} Lenin and [[Grigory Zinoviev]] decided to co-opt Stalin to the committee, which Stalin (still in exile in Vologda) agreed to.{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=83|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2pp=122–123}}{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=48|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=83|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=240|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4pp=122–123}} Lenin believed that Stalin, as a Georgian, would help secure support from the empire's minority ethnicities.{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=240}} In February 1912, Stalin again escaped to Saint Petersburg,{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=241}} where he was tasked with converting the Bolshevik weekly newspaper, ''Zvezda'' (&quot;Star&quot;) into a daily, ''[[Pravda]]'' (&quot;Truth&quot;).{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=84|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=243}} The new newspaper was launched in April 1912 and Stalin's role as editor was kept secret.{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=84|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=247}} In May 1912, he was again arrested and sentenced to three years of exile in Siberia.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=51|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=248}} In July, he arrived in [[Narym]],{{sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2007|1p=249|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=133}} where he shared a room with fellow Bolshevik [[Yakov Sverdlov]].{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=86|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=250|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=154}} After two months, they escaped to Saint Petersburg,{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=51|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=86–87|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3pp=250–251}} where Stalin continued work on ''Pravda''.{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=255}} [[File:Stalin in exile 1915.jpg|thumb|left|upright=.8|Stalin in 1915]] After the [[1912 Russian legislative election|October 1912 Duma elections]], Stalin wrote articles calling for reconciliation between the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks; Lenin criticised him{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=256}} and he relented.{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=263}} In January 1913, Stalin travelled to [[Vienna]],{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=54|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=89|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=263}} where he researched the &quot;national question&quot; of how the Bolsheviks should deal with the Empire's national and ethnic minorities.{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=89|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2pp=264–265}} His article &quot;[[Marxism and the National Question]]&quot;{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=53|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=85|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=266|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=133}} was first published in the March, April, and May 1913 issues of the Bolshevik journal ''[[Prosveshcheniye]]''{{sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=133}} under the pseudonym &quot;K. Stalin&quot;. The alias, which he had used since 1912, is derived from the Russian for steel (''stal''), and has been translated as &quot;Man of Steel&quot;.{{sfnm|1a1=Himmer|1y=1986|1p=269|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=85}} In February 1913, Stalin was again arrested in Saint Petersburg{{sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2007|1pp=268–270|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=28}} and sentenced to four years of exile in [[Turukhansk]] in Siberia, where he arrived in August.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=54|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=102–103|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3pp=270, 273|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=29}} Still concerned over a potential escape, the authorities moved him to [[Kureika (village)|Kureika]] in March 1914.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=55|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=105–106|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3pp=277–278|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=29}} === 1917: Russian Revolution === While Stalin was in exile, Russia entered the [[First World War]], and in October 1916 he and other exiled Bolsheviks were [[Conscription in the Russian Empire|conscripted into the Russian Army]].{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=57|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=113–114|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=300|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=155}} They arrived in [[Krasnoyarsk]] in February 1917,{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=57|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2pp=301–302|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=155}} where a medical examiner ruled Stalin unfit for service due to his crippled arm.{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=114|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=302|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=155}} Stalin was required to serve four more months of his exile and successfully requested to serve it in [[Achinsk]].{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=114|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=302}} Stalin was in the city when the [[February Revolution]] took place; the Tsar abdicated and the Empire became a ''de facto'' republic.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=57–58|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=116–117|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3pp=302–303|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=178|5a1=Khlevniuk|5y=2015|5p=42}} In a celebratory mood, Stalin travelled by train to Petrograd (as Saint Petersburg had been renamed) in March.{{sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1pp=15, 19|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=117|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=304|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=173}} He assumed control of ''Pravda'' alongside [[Lev Kamenev]],{{sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=19|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=120|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=310}} and was appointed as a Bolshevik delegate to the executive committee of the [[Petrograd Soviet]], an influential workers' council.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=59–60|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=310}} {{Quote box | quote = The existing government of landlords and capitalists must be replaced by a new government, a government of workers and peasants.&lt;br /&gt;The existing pseudo-government which was not elected by the people and which is not accountable to the people must be replaced by a government recognised by the people, elected by representatives of the workers, soldiers and peasants and held accountable to their representatives. | source = Stalin's editorial in ''Pravda'', October 1917{{sfn|Service|2004|p=144}} | width = 25em }} Stalin helped organise the [[July Days]] uprising, an armed display of strength by supporters of the Bolsheviks.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=65|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2pp=319–320}} After the demonstration was suppressed, the Provisional Government initiated a crackdown on the party, raiding ''Pravda''.{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=32}} Stalin smuggled Lenin out of the paper's office and took charge of his safety, moving him between Petrograd safe houses before smuggling him to nearby [[Razliv]].{{sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2007|1pp=322–324|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=203|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3pp=48–49}} In Lenin's absence, Stalin continued editing ''Pravda'' and served as acting leader of the Bolsheviks, overseeing the party's [[6th Congress of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party (Bolsheviks)|Sixth Congress]].{{sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2007|1p=326|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=204}} Lenin began calling for the Bolsheviks to seize power by toppling the Provisional Government, a plan which was supported by Stalin and fellow senior Bolshevik [[Leon Trotsky]], but opposed by Kamenev, Zinoviev, and other members.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=68|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=138|4a1=Montefiore|4y=2007|4pp=331–332|5a1=Kotkin|5y=2014|5p=214|6a1=Khlevniuk|6y=2015|6p=50}} On 24 October, police raided the Bolshevik newspaper offices, smashing machinery and presses; Stalin salvaged some of the equipment.{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=144|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2pp=337–338}} In the early hours of 25 October, Stalin joined Lenin in a Central Committee meeting in Petrograd's [[Smolny Institute]], from where the Bolshevik coup—the [[October Revolution]]—was directed.{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=145|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=341}} Bolshevik militia seized Petrograd's power station, main post office, state bank, telephone exchange, and several bridges.{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|pp=341–342}} A Bolshevik-controlled ship, the ''[[Russian cruiser Aurora|Aurora]]'', opened fire on the [[Winter Palace]]; the Provisional Government's assembled delegates surrendered and were arrested.{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|pp=344–346}} Stalin, who had been tasked with briefing the Bolshevik delegates of the [[All-Russian Congress of Soviets#Second Congress|Second Congress of Soviets]] about the situation, had not played a publicly visible role.{{sfn|Service|2004|pp=145, 147}} Trotsky and other later opponents used this as evidence his role had been insignificant, although historians reject this,{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=144–146|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=224|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=52}} citing his role as a member of the Central Committee and as an editor of ''Pravda''.{{sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=53}} ==In Lenin's government== {{Main|Stalin during the Russian Revolution, Civil War and Polish–Soviet War}} === 1917–1918: People's Commissar for Nationalities === [[File:Stalin 1917-1.1.jpg|thumb|upright=.8|left|Stalin in 1917 as a young [[People's Commissariat|People's Commissar]]]] On 26 October 1917, Lenin declared himself chairman of the new government, the [[Council of People's Commissars]] (Sovnarkom).{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=147–148|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2pp=227–228, 229|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=52}} Stalin supported Lenin's decision not to form a coalition with the [[Socialist Revolutionary Party]], although a coalition was formed with the [[Left Socialist-Revolutionaries]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1pp=28–29|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=148}} Stalin became part of an informal leadership group alongside Lenin, Trotsky, and Sverdlov, and his importance within the Bolshevik ranks grew.{{Sfn|Montefiore|2003|p=157}} Stalin's office was near Lenin's in the Smolny Institute,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=71|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=229}} and he and Trotsky had direct access to Lenin without an appointment.{{Sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2003|1p=27|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=226}} Stalin co-signed Lenin's decrees shutting down hostile newspapers,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=149}} and co-chaired the committee drafting [[Soviet Russia Constitution of 1918|a constitution]] for the newly-formed [[Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=155}} He supported Lenin's formation of the [[Cheka]] security service and the [[Red Terror]], arguing that state violence was an effective tool for capitalist powers.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=158}} Unlike some Bolsheviks, Stalin never expressed concern about the Cheka's rapid expansion and the Red Terror.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=158}} Having left his role as ''Pravda'' editor,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=148}} Stalin was appointed the [[People's Commissariat|People's Commissar]] for Nationalities.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=70|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=30|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=148|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=228|5a1=Khlevniuk|5y=2015|5p=52}} He took [[Nadezhda Alliluyeva]] as his secretary,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=72|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=151}} later marrying her in early 1919.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=72|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=167|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=264|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=49}} In November 1917, he signed the [[Declaration of the Rights of the Peoples of Russia|Decree on Nationality]], granting ethnic minorities the right to secession and self-determination.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=71}} He travelled to [[Helsingfors]] to meet with the [[Social Democratic Party of Finland|Finnish Social Democrats]], and granted Finland's request for independence from Russia in December.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=71|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=152}} Due to the threats posed by the [[Russia in World War I|First World War]], in March 1918 the government relocated from Petrograd to the [[Kremlin|Moscow Kremlin]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=72|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=150–151|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3pp=259–264}} Stalin supported Lenin's desire to sign an armistice with the Central Powers;{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=75|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=158–161|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=250}} Stalin thought this necessary because he—unlike Lenin—was unconvinced that Europe was on the verge of [[proletarian revolution]].{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=159–160|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=250}} The [[Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (Russia–Central Powers)|Treaty of Brest-Litovsk]] was signed in March 1918,{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=75|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=161|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3pp=257–258}} ceding vast territories and angering many in Russia; the Left Socialist-Revolutionaries withdrew from the coalition government.{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=161|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2pp=258–259, 265}} The Bolsheviks were renamed the [[Communist Party of the Soviet Union|Russian Communist Party]].{{sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=259}} === 1918–1921: Military command === [[File:Stalin 1920-1.jpg|thumb|upright=0.8|right|Stalin in 1920]] In May 1918, during the intensifying [[Russian Civil War]], Sovnarkom sent Stalin to [[Tsaritsyn]] to take charge of food procurement in Southern Russia.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=77|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=39|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2003|3p=27|4a1=Service|4y=2004|4p=163|5a1=Kotkin|5y=2014|5pp=300–301|6a1=Khlevniuk|6y=2015|6p=54}} Eager to prove himself as a commander,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=173}} he took control of regional military operations and befriended [[Kliment Voroshilov]] and [[Semyon Budyonny]], who later formed the core of his military support base.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=164|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2pp=302–303}} Stalin sent large numbers of [[Red Army]] troops to battle the region's [[White movement|White armies]], resulting in heavy losses and drawing Lenin's concern.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=81|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=170}} In Tsaritsyn, Stalin commanded the local Cheka branch to execute suspected counter-revolutionaries, often without trial,{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=46|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=27|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3pp=305, 307|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4pp=56–57}} and purged the military and food collection agencies of middle-class specialists, whom were also executed.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=78–79|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=40|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=166|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=55}} His use of state violence was at a greater scale than most Bolshevik leaders approved of,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=171}} for instance, he ordered several villages torched to ensure compliance with his food procurement program.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=169}} In December 1918, Stalin was sent to [[Perm, Russia|Perm]] to lead an inquiry into how [[Alexander Kolchak]]'s White forces had been able to decimate Red troops there.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=83–84|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=172|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=314}} He returned to Moscow between January and March 1919,{{sfn|Service|2004|p=172}} before being assigned to the Western Front at Petrograd.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=85|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=172}} When the Red Third Regiment defected, he ordered the public execution of captured defectors.{{sfn|Service|2004|p=172}} In September he returned to the Southern Front.{{sfn|Service|2004|p=172}} During the war, Stalin proved his worth to the Central Committee by displaying decisiveness and determination.{{sfn|Service|2004|p=173}} However, he also disregarded orders and repeatedly threatened to resign when affronted.{{sfn|Service|2004|pp=173, 174}} In November 1919, the government awarded him the [[Order of the Red Banner]] for his service.{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=86|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=45|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=331}} The Bolsheviks won the main phase of the civil war by the end of 1919.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=175}} By that time, Sovnarkom had turned its attention to spreading proletarian revolution abroad, forming the [[Communist International]] in March 1919; Stalin attended its inaugural ceremony.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=91|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=175}} Although Stalin did not share Lenin's belief that Europe's proletariat were on the verge of revolution, he acknowledged that Soviet Russia remained vulnerable.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=176}} In February 1920, he was appointed to head the [[Workers' and Peasants' Inspectorate]] (Rabkrin);{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=174}} that same month he was also transferred to the Caucasian Front.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=178}} The [[Polish–Soviet War]] broke out in early 1920, with the Poles invading Ukraine,{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=176|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2pp=352–354}} and in May, Stalin was moved to the Southwest Front.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=178|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=357|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=59}} Lenin believed that the Polish proletariat would rise up to support an invasion, but Stalin argued that [[Polish nationalism|nationalism]] would lead them to support their government's war effort.{{sfn|Service|2004|p=177}} Stalin lost the argument and accepted Lenin's decision.{{sfn|Service|2004|p=178}} On his front, Stalin became determined to conquer [[Lvov]]; in focusing on this goal, he disobeyed orders to transfer his troops to assist [[Mikhail Tukhachevsky]]'s forces at the [[Battle of Warsaw (1920)|Battle of Warsaw]] in early August, which ended in a major defeat for the Red Army.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=87|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=179|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=362|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=60}} Stalin then returned to Moscow,{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=180, 182|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=364}} where Tukhachevsky blamed him for the loss.{{Sfn|Brackman|2004|p=135}} Humiliated, he demanded demission from the military, which was granted on 1 September.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=182|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2pp=364–365}} At the [[9th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks)|9th Party Congress]] in late September, Trotsky accused Stalin of &quot;strategic mistakes&quot;{{Sfnm|1a1=Davies|1y=2003|1p=211|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=183–185|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3pp=376–377}} and claimed that he had sabotaged the campaign; Lenin joined in the criticism.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=184–185|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=377}} Stalin felt disgraced and his antipathy toward Trotsky increased.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=185}} === 1921–1924: Lenin's final years === [[File:Stalin 1921-1.jpg|thumb|right|Stalin wearing his [[Order of the Red Banner]] in 1921]] The Soviet government sought to bring neighbouring states under its domination; [[Georgian–Soviet War|in February 1921 it invaded]] the Menshevik-governed [[Democratic Republic of Georgia|Georgia]],{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|pp=396–397}} and in April 1921, Stalin ordered the Red Army into [[Turkestan Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic|Turkestan]] to reassert Soviet control.{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=388}} As People's Commissar for Nationalities, Stalin believed that each ethnic group had the right to an &quot;[[Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republics|autonomous republic]]&quot; within the Russian state in which it could oversee various regional affairs.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=199–200|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=371}} In taking this view, some Marxists accused him of bending too much to [[bourgeois nationalism]], while others accused him of remaining too Russo-centric.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=202}} In his diverse native Caucasus, however, Stalin opposed the idea of separate autonomous republics, arguing that these would oppress ethnic minorities within their territories; instead, he called for a [[Transcaucasian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=194–196|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=400}} The [[Communist Party of Georgia (Soviet Union)|Georgian Communist Party]] opposed the idea, resulting in the [[Georgian affair]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=194–195|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2pp=479–481}} In mid-1921, Stalin returned to the [[South Caucasus]], calling on Georgian communists to reject the chauvinistic nationalism which he argued had marginalised the [[Abkhazians|Abkhazian]], [[Ossetians|Ossetian]], and [[Adjarian]] minorities.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=203–205|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=400}} In March 1921, Nadezhda gave birth to another of Stalin's sons, [[Vasily Stalin|Vasily]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=127|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=232}} After the civil war, workers' strikes and peasant uprisings broke out across Russia in opposition to Sovnarkom's food requisitioning project; in response, Lenin introduced market-oriented reforms in the [[New Economic Policy]] (NEP).{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=89|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=187|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=344|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=64}} There was also turmoil within the Communist Party, as Trotsky led a faction calling for abolition of trade unions; Lenin opposed this, and Stalin helped rally opposition to Trotsky's position.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=186}} At the [[11th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks)|11th Party Congress]] in March and April 1922, Lenin nominated Stalin as the party's [[General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union|General Secretary]], which was intended as a purely organisational role. Although concerns were expressed that adopting the new position would overstretch his workload and grant him too much power, Stalin was appointed to the post.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=96|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2pp=78–70|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3pp=189–190|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=411}} {{Quote box | width = 25em | align = left | quote = Stalin is too crude, and this defect which is entirely acceptable in our milieu and in relationships among us as communists, becomes unacceptable in the position of General Secretary. I therefore propose to comrades that they should devise a means of removing him from this job and should appoint to this job someone else who is distinguished from comrade Stalin in all other respects only by the single superior aspect that he should be more tolerant, more polite and more attentive towards comrades, less capricious, etc. | source = — Lenin's Testament, 4 January 1923{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2000|1p=369|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=209|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=504}} }} In May 1922, a massive stroke left Lenin partially paralysed.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=97|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=53|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=191}} Residing at his [[Gorki Leninskiye|Gorki dacha]], his main connection to Sovnarkom was through Stalin.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=191–192|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=413}} Despite their comradeship, Lenin disliked what he referred to as Stalin's &quot;Asiatic&quot; manner and told his sister [[Maria Ilyinichna Ulyanova|Maria]] that Stalin was &quot;not intelligent&quot;.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=102|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=191–192|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=528}} The two men argued on the issue of foreign trade; Lenin believed that the Soviet state should have a monopoly on foreign trade, but Stalin supported [[Grigori Sokolnikov]]'s view that doing so was impractical.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=98|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=193|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=483|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4pp=69–70}} Another disagreement came over the Georgian affair, with Lenin backing the Georgian Central Committee's desire for a Georgian Soviet Republic over Stalin's idea of a Transcaucasian one.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=95|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=195|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3pp=71–72}} They also disagreed on the nature of the Soviet state; Lenin called for establishment of a new federation named the &quot;Union of Soviet Republics of Europe and Asia&quot;,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=195}} while Stalin believed that this would encourage independence sentiment among non-Russians.{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=71|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=194|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3pp=475–476|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4pp=68–69}} Lenin accused Stalin of &quot;Great Russian chauvinism&quot;, while Stalin accused Lenin of &quot;national liberalism&quot;.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=98–99|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=195|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3pp=477, 478|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=69}} A compromise was reached in which the federation would be named the &quot;Union of Soviet Socialist Republics&quot; (USSR), whose formation was ratified in December 1922.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=195}} Their differences also became personal; Lenin was angered when Stalin was rude to his wife Krupskaya during a telephone conversation.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=99–100, 103|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2pp=72–74|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3pp=210–211|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4pp=70–71}} In the final years of his life, Krupskaya provided leading figures with [[Lenin's Testament]], which criticised Stalin's rude manners and excessive power and suggested that he be removed as general secretary.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=100–101|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2pp=53, 79–82|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3pp=208–209|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=71}} Some historians have questioned whether Lenin wrote the document, suggesting that it was written by Krupskaya;{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=501}} Stalin never publicly voiced concerns about its authenticity.{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=528}} Most historians consider it an accurate reflection of Lenin's views.{{Sfn|Suny|2020b|p=59}} ==Consolidation of power== {{Main|Joseph Stalin's rise to power}} === 1924–1928: Succeeding Lenin === [[File:Stalin Rykov Kamenev Zinoviev 1925 (cropped).jpg|thumb|right|From left to right: Stalin, [[Alexei Rykov]], [[Lev Kamenev]], and [[Grigory Zinoviev]] in 1925. All three later fell out with Stalin and were executed during the [[Great Purge]].]] Upon Lenin's death in January 1924,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=104|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2003|2p=30|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=219|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=534|5a1=Khlevniuk|5y=2015|5p=79}} Stalin took charge of the funeral and was a pallbearer.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=110|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2003|2p=30|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=219|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4pp=542–543}} To bolster his image as a devoted Leninist amid his growing [[personality cult]], Stalin gave nine lectures at [[Sverdlov University]] on the ''[[Foundations of Leninism]]'', later published in book form.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=111–112|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2pp=117–118|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=221|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=544}} At the [[13th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks)|13th Party Congress]] in May 1924, Lenin's Testament was read only to the leaders of the provincial delegations.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=222–224|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=79}} Embarrassed by its contents, Stalin offered his resignation as General Secretary; this act of humility saved him, and he was retained in the post.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=111|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2pp=93–94|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3pp=222–224|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4pp=546–548|5a1=Khlevniuk|5y=2015|5p=79}} As General Secretary, Stalin had a free hand in making appointments to his own staff, and implanted loyalists throughout the party.{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=426}} Favouring new members from proletarian backgrounds to &quot;[[Old Bolsheviks]]&quot;, who tended to be middle-class university graduates,{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=453}} he ensured that he had loyalists dispersed across the regions.{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=455}} Stalin had much contact with young party functionaries,{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=469}} and the desire for promotion led many to seek his favour.{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=432}} Stalin also developed close relations with key figures in the secret police: [[Felix Dzerzhinsky]], [[Genrikh Yagoda]], and [[Vyacheslav Menzhinsky]].{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|pp=495–496}} His wife gave birth to a daughter, [[Svetlana Alliluyeva|Svetlana]], in February 1926.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=127|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=238}} In the wake of Lenin's death, a power struggle emerged to become his successor: alongside Stalin was Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, [[Nikolai Bukharin]], [[Alexei Rykov]], and [[Mikhail Tomsky]].{{Sfn|Fainsod|Hough|1979|p=111}} Stalin saw Trotsky—whom he personally despised{{Sfn|Volkogonov|1991|p=136}}—as the main obstacle to his dominance,{{Sfn|Montefiore|2003|p=27}} and during Lenin's illness had formed an unofficial [[triumvirate]] (''[[List of leaders of the Soviet Union#List of troikas|troika]]'') with Kamanev and Zinoviev against him.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=98|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=474|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=52}} Although Zinoviev was concerned about Stalin's growing power, he rallied behind him at the 13th Congress as a counterweight to Trotsky, who now led a faction known as the [[Left Opposition]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=214–215, 217}} Trotsky's supporters believed that the NEP conceded too much to capitalism, and they called Stalin a &quot;rightist&quot; for his support of the policy.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=87}} Stalin built up a retinue of his supporters within the Central Committee{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=225}} as the Left Opposition were marginalised.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=227}} [[File:Ordzhonikidze, Stalin and Mikoyan, 1925.jpg|thumb|left|Stalin and his close associates [[Anastas Mikoyan]] and [[Sergo Ordzhonikidze]] in [[Tbilisi]], 1925]] In late 1924, Stalin moved against Kamenev and Zinoviev, removing their supporters from key positions.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=228|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=563}} In 1925, the two moved into open opposition to Stalin and Bukharin{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=240}} and launched an unsuccessful attack on their faction at the [[14th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)|14th Party Congress]] in December.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=240–243|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=82–83}} Stalin accused Kamenev and Zinoviev of reintroducing factionalism, and thus instability.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=240–243|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=82–83}} In mid-1926, Kamenev and Zinoviev joined with Trotsky to form the [[United Opposition (Soviet Union)|United Opposition]] against Stalin;{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=126|2a1=Conquest|2y=2008|2p=11|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=614|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=83}} in October the two agreed to stop factional activity under threat of expulsion, and later publicly recanted their views.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=137, 138|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=614}} The factionalist arguments continued, with Stalin threatening to resign in October and December 1926, and again in December 1927.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=247|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2pp=614, 618|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=91}} In October 1927, Trotsky was removed from the Central Committee;{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=85}} he was later exiled to Kazakhstan in 1928 and deported from the country in 1929.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=139, 151|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=282–283|3a1=Conquest|3y=2008|3pp=11–12|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4pp=676–677|5a1=Khlevniuk|5y=2015|5p=85}} Stalin was now the supreme leader of the party and state.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=276}} He entrusted the position of [[head of government]] to [[Vyacheslav Molotov]]; other important supporters on the Politburo were Voroshilov, [[Lazar Kaganovich]], and [[Sergo Ordzhonikidze]],{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=277, 280|2a1=Conquest|2y=2008|2pp=12–13}} with Stalin ensuring his allies ran state institutions.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=278}} His growing influence was reflected in naming of locations after him; in June 1924 the Ukrainian city of [[Yuzovka]] became Stalino,{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=130}} and in April 1925, Tsaritsyn was renamed Stalingrad.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=130|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=160|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=689}} In 1926, Stalin published ''On Questions of Leninism,''{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=244}} in which he argued for the concept of &quot;[[socialism in one country]]&quot;, which was presented as an orthodox Leninist perspective despite clashing with established Bolshevik views that socialism could only be achieved globally through the process of [[world revolution]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=244}} In 1927, there was some argument in the party over Soviet policy regarding China. Stalin had called for the [[Chinese Communist Party]] (CCP), led by [[Mao Zedong]], to ally itself with [[Chiang Kai-shek]]'s [[Kuomintang]] (KMT) nationalists, viewing a CCP-KMT alliance as the best bulwark against Japanese imperial expansionism. Instead, the KMT [[Shanghai massacre|repressed]] the CCP and a [[Chinese civil war|civil war broke out]] between the two sides.{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=392|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2pp=626–631|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3pp=89–90}} {{Clear|left}} === 1928–1932: First five-year plan === {{Main|First five-year plan}} ====Economic policy==== {{Quote box|width=25em|align=right|quote=We have fallen behind the advanced countries by fifty to a hundred years. We must close that gap in ten years. Either we do this or we'll be crushed. This is what our obligations before the workers and peasants of the USSR dictate to us.|source= — Stalin, February 1931{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=273}} }} The Soviet Union lagged far behind the industrial and agricultural development of the Western powers.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=256}} Stalin's government feared attack from capitalist countries,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=172–173|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=256|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3pp=638–639}} and many communists, including in [[Komsomol]], [[OGPU]], and the Red Army, were eager to be rid of the NEP and its market-oriented approach.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=144, 146|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=258}} They had concerns about those who profited from the policy: affluent peasants known as &quot;[[kulak]]s&quot; and small business owners, or &quot;[[NEPmen]]&quot;.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=256|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=571}} At this point, Stalin [[Great Break (USSR)|turned against]] the NEP, which put him on a course to the &quot;left&quot; even of Trotsky or Zinoviev.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=253|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=101}} In early 1928, Stalin travelled to [[Novosibirsk]], where he alleged that kulaks were hoarding grain and ordered them be arrested and their grain confiscated, with Stalin bringing much of the grain back to Moscow with him in February.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=147–148|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=257–258|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3pp=661, 668–669, 679–684|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4pp=102–103}} At his command, grain procurement squads surfaced across West Siberia and the Urals, with violence breaking out between the squads and the peasantry.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=258|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=103}} Stalin announced that kulaks and the &quot;middle peasants&quot; must be coerced into releasing their harvest.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=258}} Bukharin and other Central Committee members were angered that they had not been consulted about the measure.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=258|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=105}} In January 1930, the Politburo approved the &quot;liquidation&quot; of the kulak class, which was exiled to other parts of the country or concentration camps.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=267}}{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=160|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=166}} By July 1930, over 320,000 households had been affected.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=267}} According to [[Dmitri Volkogonov]], de-kulakisation was &quot;the first mass terror applied by Stalin in his own country.&quot;{{Sfn|Volkogonov|1991|p=167}} [[File:Stakhanov.JPG|thumb|left|[[Alexei Stakhanov|Aleksei Stakhanov]] with a fellow miner. Stalin's government initiated the [[Stakhanovite movement]] in order to encourage hard work.{{Sfn|Sandle|1999|p=231}}]] In 1929, the Politburo announced the [[Collectivization in the Soviet Union|mass collectivisation of agriculture]],{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=265–266|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=110–111}} establishing both ''[[kolkhoz]]'' collective farms and ''[[sovkhoz]]'' state farms.{{Sfn|Sandle|1999|p=234}} Although officially voluntary, many peasants joined the collectives out of fear they would face the fate of the kulaks.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=113}} By 1932, about 62% of households involved in agriculture were part of collectives, and by 1936 this had risen to 90%.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=271}} Many collectivised peasants resented the loss of their private farmland,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=270}} and productivity slumped.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=270|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=116}} Famine broke out in many areas,{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=272|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=116}} with the Politburo frequently being forced to dispatch emergency food relief.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=272}} Armed peasant uprisings broke out in Ukraine, the [[North Caucasus]], Southern Russia, and Central Asia, reaching their apex in March 1930; these were suppressed by the army.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=270|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=113–114}} Stalin responded with [[Dizzy with Success|an article]] insisting that collectivisation was voluntary and blaming violence on local officials.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=160|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=114}} Although he and Stalin had been close for many years,{{Sfn|Volkogonov|1991|p=174}} Bukharin expressed concerns and regarded them as a return to Lenin's old &quot;[[war communism]]&quot; policy. By mid-1928, he was unable to rally sufficient support in the party to oppose the reforms;{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=172|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=260|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=708}} in November 1929, Stalin removed him from the Politburo.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=158|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=266|3a1=Conquest|3y=2008|3p=18}} Officially, the Soviet Union had replaced the &quot;irrationality&quot; and &quot;wastefulness&quot; of a [[market economy]] with a [[planned economy]] organised along a long-term and scientific framework; in reality, Soviet economics were based on ''ad hoc'' commandments issued often to make short-term targets.{{Sfn|Sandle|1999|pp=227, 229}} In 1928, the [[first five-year plan]] was launched by Stalin with a main focus on boosting Soviet heavy industry;{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=259}} it was finished a year ahead of schedule, in 1932.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=274}} The country underwent a massive economic transformation:{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=265}} new mines were opened, new cities like [[Magnitogorsk]] constructed, and work on the [[White Sea–Baltic Canal]] began.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=265}} Millions of peasants moved to the cities, and large debts were accrued purchasing foreign-made machinery.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=118}} Many major construction projects, including the White Sea–Baltic Canal and the [[Moscow Metro]], were constructed largely through forced labour.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|pp=186, 190}} The last elements of workers' control over industry were removed, with factory managers receiving privileges;{{Sfn|Sandle|1999|pp=231–233}} Stalin defended wage disparity by pointing to Marx's argument that it was necessary during the lower stages of socialism.{{Sfn|Sandle|1999|pp=241–242}} To promote intensification of labour, medals and awards as well as the [[Stakhanovite movement]] were introduced.{{Sfn|Sandle|1999|p=231}} Stalin argued that socialism was being established in the USSR while capitalism was crumbling during the [[Great Depression]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=269}} His rhetoric reflected his [[utopian]] vision of the &quot;[[new Soviet person]]&quot; rising to unparallelled heights of human development.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=300}} {{Clear|left}} ====Cultural and foreign policy==== In 1928, Stalin declared that class war between the proletariat and their enemies would intensify as socialism developed.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=152–153|2a1=Sandle|2y=1999|2p=214|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3pp=107–108}} He warned of a &quot;danger from the right&quot;, including from within the Communist Party.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=108}} The first major [[show trial]] in the USSR was the [[Shakhty Trial]] of 1928, in which middle-class &quot;industrial specialists&quot; were convicted of sabotage.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=152–155|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=259|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3pp=687, 702–704, 709|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=107}} From 1929 to 1930, show trials were held to intimidate opposition;{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=268}} these included the [[Industrial Party Trial]], [[Menshevik Trial]], and [[Metro-Vickers Trial]].{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=155}} Aware that the ethnic Russian majority may have concerns about being ruled by a Georgian,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=324}} he promoted ethnic Russians throughout the state bureaucracy and made Russian compulsory in schools, albeit in tandem with local languages.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=326}} Nationalist sentiment was suppressed.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=301}} [[Social conservatism|Conservative social policies]] were promoted to boost population growth; this included a focus on strong family units, [[LGBT rights in the Soviet Union|re-criminalisation of homosexuality]], restrictions on abortion and divorce, and abolition of the ''[[Zhenotdel]]'' women's department.{{Sfn|Sandle|1999|pp=244, 246}} [[File:Christ saviour explosion.jpg|thumb|left|1931 demolition of the [[Cathedral of Christ the Saviour]] in Moscow in order to make way for the planned [[Palace of the Soviets]]]] Stalin desired a &quot;[[Cultural Revolution in the Soviet Union|cultural revolution]]&quot;,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=299}} entailing both the creation of [[Culture of the Soviet Union|a culture]] for the &quot;masses&quot; and the wider dissemination of previously elite culture.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=304}} He oversaw a proliferation of schools, newspapers, and libraries, as well as advancement of literacy and [[numeracy]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1pp=111, 127|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=308}} [[Socialist realism]] was promoted throughout the arts,{{Sfnm|1a1=Sandle|1y=1999|1p=246|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2003|2p=85}} while Stalin wooed prominent writers, namely [[Maxim Gorky]], [[Mikhail Sholokhov]], and [[Aleksey Nikolayevich Tolstoy]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=302–303}} He expressed patronage for scientists whose research fit within his preconceived interpretation of Marxism; for instance, he endorsed the research of agrobiologist [[Trofim Lysenko]] despite the fact that it was rejected by the majority of Lysenko's scientific peers as [[pseudo-scientific]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=211, 276–277|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=307}} The government's anti-religious campaign was re-intensified,{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=157}} with increased funding given to the [[League of Militant Atheists]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=301}} [[Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union|Priests]], [[Islam in the Soviet Union|imams]], and [[Buddhism in Russia|Buddhist]] monks faced persecution.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=268}} Religious buildings were demolished, most notably Moscow's [[Cathedral of Christ the Saviour]], destroyed in 1931 to make way for the [[Palace of the Soviets]].{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=191}} Religion retained an influence over the population; in the [[Soviet Census (1937)|1937 census]], 57% of respondents were willing to admit to being religious.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=325}} Throughout the 1920s, Stalin placed a priority on foreign policy.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=379}} He personally met with a range of Western visitors, including [[George Bernard Shaw]] and [[H. G. Wells]], both of whom were impressed with him.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|pp=183–184}} Through the Communist International, Stalin's government exerted a strong influence over Marxist parties elsewhere;{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=282}} he left the running of the organisation to Bukharin before his ousting.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=261}} At its 6th Congress in July 1928, Stalin informed delegates that the main threat to socialism came from non-Marxist socialists and [[social democrats]], whom he called &quot;[[social fascists]]&quot;;{{Sfnm|1a1=McDermott|1y=1995|1pp=410–411|2a1=Conquest|2y=1991|2p=176|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3pp=261, 383|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=720}} Stalin recognised that in many countries, these groups were Marxist–Leninists' main rivals for working-class support.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=173}} This focus on opposing rival leftists concerned Bukharin, who regarded the growth of [[fascism]] and the far right across Europe as a greater threat.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=261}} In 1929, Stalin's son Yakov unsuccessfully attempted suicide, shooting himself in the chest and narrowly missing his heart; his failure earned the contempt of Stalin, who is reported to have brushed off the attempt by saying &quot;He can't even shoot straight.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{harvnb|Allilueva|1967|p=111}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=289|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=595}} His relationship with Nadezhda was strained amid their arguments and her mental health problems.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=289}} In November 1932, after a group dinner in the Kremlin in which Stalin flirted with other women, Nadezhda shot herself in the heart.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=169|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2003|2p=90|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3pp=291–292}} Publicly, the cause of death was given as [[appendicitis]]; Stalin also concealed the real cause of death from his children.{{Sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2003|1pp=94, 95|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=292, 294}} Stalin's friends noted that he underwent a significant change following her suicide, becoming emotionally harder.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=297}} {{Clear|left}} === 1932–1939: Major crises === ====Famine of 1932–1933==== {{Main|Soviet famine of 1930–1933}} [[File:Famine en URSS 1933.jpg|thumb|right|Map of areas affected by the [[Soviet famine of 1932–1933]]]] Within the Soviet Union, civic disgruntlement against Stalin's government was widespread.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=316}} Social unrest in urban areas led Stalin to ease some economic policies in 1932.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=310}} In May 1932, he introduced ''kolkhoz'' markets where peasants could trade surplus produce.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=310|2a1=Davies|2a2=Wheatcroft|2y=2006|2p=627}} However, penal sanctions became harsher; a decree in August 1932 made the theft of a handful of grain a capital offence.{{Sfn|Davies|Wheatcroft|2006|p=628}} The second five-year plan reduced production quotas from the first, focusing more on improving living conditions{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=310}} through housing and consumer goods.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=310}} Emphasis on armament production increased after [[Adolf Hitler]] became [[German chancellor]] in 1933.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=318}} The Soviet Union experienced a major famine which peaked in the winter of 1932–1933,{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=312|2a1=Conquest|2y=2008|2pp=19–20|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=117}} with 5–7 million deaths.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=117}} The worst affected areas were [[Ukrainian SSR|Ukraine]] (where the famine was called the [[Holodomor]]), [[Southern Russia]], [[Kazakh SSR|Kazakhstan]] and the [[North Caucasus]].{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=119}} In the case of Ukraine, historians debate whether the famine was intentional, with the purpose of eliminating a potential independence movement;{{Sfn|Ellman|2005|p=823}} no documents show Stalin explicitly ordered starvation.{{Sfnm|1a1=Ellman|1y=2005|1p=824|2a1=Davies|2a2=Wheatcroft|2y=2006|2pp=628, 631}} Poor weather led to bad harvests in 1931 and 1932,{{Sfnm|1a1=Ellman|1y=2005|1pp=823–824|2a1=Davies|2a2=Wheatcroft|2y=2006|2p=626|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=117}} compounded by years of declining productivity.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=117}} Rapid industrialisation policies, neglect of [[crop rotation]], and failure to build reserve grain stocks exacerbated the crisis.{{Sfn|Ellman|2005|p=834}} Stalin blamed hostile elements and saboteurs among the peasants.{{Sfnm|1a1=Ellman|1y=2005|1p=824|2a1=Davies|2a2=Wheatcroft|2y=2006|2pp=627–628|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=120}} The government provided limited food aid to famine-stricken areas, prioritising urban workers;{{Sfnm|1a1=Ellman|1y=2005|1p=833|2a1=Kuromiya|2y=2008|2p=665}} for Stalin, Soviet industrialisation was more valuable than peasant lives.{{Sfnm|1a1=Davies|1a2=Wheatcroft|1y=2006|1p=628|2a1=Ellman|2y=2007|2p=664}} Grain exports declined heavily.{{Sfn|Davies|Wheatcroft|2006|p=627}} Stalin did not acknowledge his policies' role in the famine,{{Sfn|Davies|Wheatcroft|2006|p=628}} which was concealed from foreign observers.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=164|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=724}} ====Ideological and foreign affairs==== {{Further|Joseph Stalin's cult of personality}} In 1936, Stalin oversaw the adoption of [[1936 Constitution of the Soviet Union|a new constitution]] with expansive democratic features; it was designed as propaganda, as all power rested in his hands.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=319}} He declared that &quot;socialism, the first phase of communism, has been achieved&quot;.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=319}} In 1938, the ''[[History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (Bolsheviks)]]'' was released;{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=212|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2pp=552–443|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=361}} commonly known as the &quot;Short Course&quot;, it became the central text of Stalinism.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=212}} Authorised Stalin biographies were also published,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=361}} though Stalin preferred to be viewed as the embodiment of the Communist Party, rather than have his life story explored.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=362}} [[File:Soviet armor in the spanish civil war.png|thumb|Review of Soviet armoured vehicles used to equip the [[Spanish Republican Army|Republican Army]] during the [[Spanish Civil War]]]] Seeking better international relations, in 1934 the Soviet Union joined the [[League of Nations]], from which it had previously been excluded.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=386}} Stalin initiated confidential communications with Hitler in October 1933, shortly after the latter came to power.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=217}} Stalin admired Hitler, particularly his manoeuvres to remove rivals within the [[Nazi Party]] in the [[Night of the Long Knives]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=176|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2003|2p=116|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=340}} Stalin nevertheless recognised the threat posed by fascism and sought to establish better links with the [[liberal democracies]] of Western Europe;{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=218|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=123, 135}} in May 1935, the Soviets signed treaties of mutual assistance with France and Czechoslovakia.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=135}} At the Communist International's [[Seventh World Congress of the Comintern|7th Congress]] in July–August 1935, the Soviet Union encouraged Marxist–Leninists to unite with other leftists as part of a [[popular front]] against fascism.{{Sfnm|1a1=Haslam|1y=1979|1pp=682–683|2a1=Conquest|2y=1991|2p=218|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=385|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=135}} In response, Germany, Italy, and Japan signed the [[Anti-Comintern Pact]].{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=392|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=154}} When the [[Spanish Civil War]] broke out in July 1936, the Soviets sent military aid to the [[Republican faction (Spanish Civil War)|Republican faction]], including 648 aircraft and 407 tanks, along with 3,000 Soviet troops and 42,000 members of the [[International Brigades]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=219|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=387}} Stalin took a personal involvement in the Spanish situation.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=154}} Germany and Italy backed the [[Nationalist faction]], which was ultimately victorious in March 1939.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=387, 389}} With the outbreak of the [[Second Sino-Japanese War]] in July 1937, the Soviet Union and China signed a [[Sino-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact|non-aggression pact]].{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=156}} Stalin aided the Chinese as the KMT and the Communists suspended their civil war and formed his desired [[Second United Front|United Front]] against Japan.{{sfn|Service|2004|pp=392}} ====Great Purge==== {{Main|Great Purge}} [[File:Vinnycia16.jpg|thumb|right|Exhumed mass grave of the [[Vinnytsia massacre]], 1943]] Stalin's approach to state repression was often contradictory.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=126}} In May 1933, he released many convicted of minor offences, ordering the security services not to enact further mass arrests and deportations,{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=125}} and in September 1934, he launched a commission to investigate false imprisonments. That same month, he called for the execution of workers at the Stalin Metallurgical Factory accused of spying for Japan.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=126}}{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=125}} After [[Sergey Kirov|Sergei Kirov]] was murdered in December 1934, Stalin became increasingly concerned about assassination threats,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=179|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2003|2pp=126–127|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=314|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4pp=128–129}} and state repression intensified.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=128, 137}} Stalin issued a decree establishing [[NKVD troika]]s which could issue rapid and severe sentences without involving the courts.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=315}} In 1935, he ordered the NKVD to expel suspected counterrevolutionaries from urban areas;{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=318}} over 11,000 were expelled from Leningrad alone in early 1935.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=318}} [[File:RIAN archive 910794 Memorial events in Bykovnya Graves reserve.jpg|thumb|right|Memorial to a victim of the Great Purge at the [[Bykivnia graves|Bykivnia mass grave]]]] In 1936, [[Nikolai Yezhov]] became head of the NKVD,{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=139}} after which Stalin move to orchestrate the arrest and execution of his remaining opponents in the Communist Party in the [[Great Purge]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=314–317}} The first [[Moscow Trials|Moscow Trial]] in August 1936 saw Kamenev and Zinoviev executed.{{Sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2003|1pp=139, 154–155, 164–172, 175–176|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=320|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=139}} The second trial took place in January 1937,{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=139–140}} and the third in March 1938, with Bukharin and Rykov executed.{{Sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2003|1pp=192–193|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=346|3a1=Conquest|3y=2008|3p=24 |4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=140}} By late 1937, all remnants of [[Collective leadership in the Soviet Union|collective leadership]] were gone from the Politburo, which was now effectively under Stalin's control.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=176–177}} There were mass expulsions from the party,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=349}} with Stalin also ordering foreign communist parties to purge anti-Stalinist elements.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=391}} These purges replaced most of the party's old guard with younger officials loyal to Stalin.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=137–138, 147}} Party functionaries readily carried out their commands and sought to ingratiate themselves with Stalin, to avoid becoming victims.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=140}} Such functionaries often carried out more arrests and executions than their quotas set by government.{{Sfn|Montefiore|2003|p=204}} [[File:Gelya Markizova.jpg |thumb|upright=.7|Stalin receives flowers from [[Engelsina Markizova]], 1936. The girl's father was later executed in the Great Purge.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Hockstader |first=Lee |date=10 March 1995 |title=From a ruler's embrace to a life in disgrace |url=https://archive.wikiwix.com/cache/index2.php?url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1995/03/10/from-a-rulers-embrace-to-a-life-in-disgrace/6df151d2-82c3-4589-85b3-2015c802258f/#federation=archive.wikiwix.com&amp;tab=url |website=Washington Post (Arq. in WikiWix Archive)}}&lt;/ref&gt;]] Repressions intensified further from December 1936 until November 1938.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=347}} In May 1937, Stalin ordered the [[Case of the Trotskyist Anti-Soviet Military Organization|arrest of much of the army's high command]], and mass arrests in the military followed.{{Sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2003|1p=201|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=349|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=140}} By late 1937, purges extended beyond the party to the wider population.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=141, 150}} In July 1937, the Politburo ordered a purge of &quot;anti-Soviet elements&quot;, targeting anti-Stalin Bolsheviks, former Mensheviks, Socialist Revolutionaries, priests, ex–White Army soldiers, and common criminals.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=350|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=150–151}} Stalin initiated &quot;[[Mass operations of the NKVD|national operations]]&quot;, the ethnic cleansing of non-Soviet ethnic groups — among them [[Polish Operation of the NKVD|Poles]], [[NKVD Order No. 00439|Germans]], [[Latvian Operation of the NKVD|Latvians]], [[Finnish Operation of the NKVD|Finns]], [[Greek Operation|Greeks]], [[Deportation of Koreans in the Soviet Union|Koreans]], and [[Soviet deportations of Chinese people|Chinese]] — through internal or external exile.{{Sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2003|1p=204|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=351, 390|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=151}} More than 1.6 million people were arrested, 700,000 shot, and an unknown number died under torture.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=151}} The NKVD also assassinated defectors and opponents abroad;{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=394}} in August 1940, Trotsky was assassinated in Mexico, eliminating Stalin's last major opponent.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=230|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=394|3a1=Overy|3y=2004|3p=338|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=174}} Stalin initiated all key decisions during the purge, and personally directed many operations.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=151, 159}} Historians debate his motives,{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=151}} noting his personal writings from the period were &quot;unusually convoluted and incoherent&quot;, filled with claims about enemies encircling him.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=152}} He feared a domestic [[fifth column]] in the event of war with Japan and Germany,{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=153, 156–157}} particularly after right-wing forces overthrew the leftist Spanish government.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=347–248|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=125, 156–157}} The Great Purge ended when Yezhov was replaced by [[Lavrentiy Beria]],{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=367}} a fellow Georgian completely loyal to Stalin.{{Sfn|Montefiore|2003|p=245}} Yezhov himself was arrested in April 1939 and executed in 1940.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=209|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=369|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=160}} The purge damaged the Soviet Union's reputation abroad, particularly among leftist sympathisers.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=162}} As it wound down, Stalin sought to deflect his responsibility,{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=157}} blaming its &quot;excesses&quot; and &quot;violations of law&quot; on Yezhov.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=159}} ==World War II== {{Main|Soviet Union in World War II}} === 1939–1941: Pact with Nazi Germany === As a Marxist–Leninist, Stalin considered conflict between competing capitalist powers inevitable; after Nazi Germany [[Anschluss|annexed Austria]] and then [[German occupation of Czechoslovakia|part of Czechoslovakia]] in 1938, he recognised a major war was looming.{{Sfn|Montefiore|2003|p=308}} He sought to maintain Soviet neutrality, hoping that a German war against France and the United Kingdom would lead to Soviet dominance in Europe.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=220–221|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=380–381}} The Soviets also faced a threat from the east, with Soviet troops [[Soviet–Japanese border conflicts|clashing with the expansionist Japanese]] in the latter part of the 1930s, culminating in the [[Battles of Khalkhin Gol]] in 1939.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=392–393|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=163, 168–169}} Stalin initiated a military build-up, with the Red Army more than doubling in total size between January 1939 and June 1941, although in its haste to expand many of its officers were poorly trained.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=185–186}} Between 1940 and 1941 Stalin also [[1941 Red Army Purge|purged the military]], leaving it with a severe shortage of trained officers when war later broke out.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|pp=232–233, 236}} [[File:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-H27337, Moskau, Stalin und Ribbentrop im Kreml.jpg|thumb|upright=0.8|left|Stalin greeting German foreign minister [[Joachim von Ribbentrop]] at the Kremlin, August 1939]] As Britain and France seemed unwilling to commit to an alliance with the Soviet Union, Stalin saw a better deal with the Germans.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=399–400}} On 3 May 1939, Stalin replaced his Western-oriented foreign minister [[Maxim Litvinov]] with [[Vyacheslav Molotov]].{{Sfn|Nekrich|1997|p=109}} Germany began negotiations with the Soviets, proposing that Eastern Europe be divided between the two powers.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=220|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=166}} In August 1939, the Soviet Union signed the [[Molotov–Ribbentrop pact|Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact]] with Germany, a non-aggression pact negotiated by Molotov and German foreign minister [[Joachim von Ribbentrop]] with a secret protocol dividing Eastern Europe.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=221|2a1=Roberts|2y=1992|2pp=57–78|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=399|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=166}} On 1 September, [[Germany invaded Poland]], leading the UK and France to declare war on Germany.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=222|2a1=Roberts|2y=1992|2pp=57–78|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=169}} On 17 September, [[Soviet invasion of Poland|the Red Army entered eastern Poland]], officially to restore order.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=222|2a1=Roberts|2y=2006|2p=43}} On 28 September, Germany and the Soviet Union exchanged some of their conquered territories,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=223|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=402–403|3a1=Wettig|3y=2008|3p=20}} and a [[German–Soviet Frontier Treaty]] was signed shortly after in Stalin's presence.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=224}} The two states [[Nazi–Soviet economic relations (1934–41)|continued trading]], undermining the [[Blockade of Germany (1939–1945)|British blockade of Germany]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=224|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=405}} The Soviets further demanded parts of eastern Finland, but the Finnish government refused. The Soviets invaded Finland in November 1939, starting the [[Winter War]]; despite numerical inferiority, the Finns kept the Red Army at bay.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=228|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=403|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3pp=172–173}} International opinion backed Finland, with the Soviet Union being expelled from the League of Nations.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=279|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=173}} Embarrassed by their inability to defeat the Finns, the Soviets signed an [[Moscow Peace Treaty|interim peace treaty]], in which they received territorial concessions.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=403|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=173}} In June 1940, the Red Army occupied the Baltic states, which were forcibly [[Occupation of the Baltic states|merged into the Soviet Union]] in August;{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=227|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=404–405|3a1=Wettig|3y=2008|3pp=20–21|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=173}} they also invaded and annexed [[Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina|Bessarabia and northern Bukovina]], parts of Romania.{{Sfnm|1a1=Brackman|1y=2001|1p=341|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=173}} The Soviets sought to forestall dissent in the new territories with mass repressions.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=170}} A noted instance was the [[Katyn massacre]] of April and May 1940, in which around 22,000 members of the Polish armed forces, police, and intelligentsia were executed by the NKVD.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=229|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=170}} The speed of the German victory over and occupation of France in mid-1940 took Stalin by surprise.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=229|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=405}} He increasingly focused on appeasement with the Germans to delay a conflict with them.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=229|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=406}} After the [[Tripartite Pact]] was signed by the [[Axis Powers]] of Germany, Japan, and Italy in October 1940, Stalin proposed that [[German–Soviet Axis talks|the USSR also join the Axis alliance]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=231|2a1=Brackman|2y=2001|2pp=341, 343|3a1=Roberts|3y=2006|3p=58}} To demonstrate peaceful intentions, in April 1941 the Soviets signed [[Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact|a neutrality pact]] with Japan.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=233|2a1=Roberts|2y=2006|2p=63}} Stalin, who had been the country's ''de facto'' head of government for almost 15 years, concluded that relations with Germany had deteriorated to such an extent that he needed to become ''de jure'' head of government as well, and on 6 May, replaced Molotov as [[Premier of the Soviet Union]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=234|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=180}} === 1941–1942: German invasion === [[File:Battle of Moscow.jpg|thumb|With all the men at the front, women dig [[anti-tank trench]]es around Moscow in 1941]] In June 1941, Germany [[invaded the Soviet Union]], initiating the war on the [[Eastern Front (World War II)|Eastern Front]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=410–411|2a1=Roberts|2y=2006|2p=82|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=198}} Despite intelligence agencies repeatedly warning him of Germany's intentions, Stalin was taken by surprise.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=408–409, 411–412|2a1=Roberts|2y=2006|2p=67|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3pp=199–200, 202}} He formed a [[State Defence Committee]], which he headed as Supreme Commander,{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=414–415|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=206–207}} as well as a military Supreme Command ([[Stavka]]),{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=413}} with [[Georgy Zhukov]] as its Chief of Staff.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=420}} The German tactic of ''[[blitzkrieg]]'' was initially highly effective; the Soviet air force in the western borderlands was destroyed within two days.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=417|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=201–202}} The German [[Wehrmacht]] pushed deep into Soviet territory;{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=235|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=416}} soon, Ukraine, Byelorussia, and the Baltic states were under German occupation, and [[Siege of Leningrad|Leningrad was under siege]];{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=418}} and Soviet refugees were flooding into Moscow and surrounding cities.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=417}} By July, Germany's [[Luftwaffe]] was bombing Moscow,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=418}} and by October the Wehrmacht was amassing for a full assault on the capital. Plans were made for the Soviet government to evacuate to [[Samara|Kuibyshev]], although Stalin decided to remain in Moscow, believing his flight would damage troop morale.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=248–249|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=420|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3pp=214–215}} The German advance on Moscow was halted after [[Battle of Moscow|two months of battle]] in increasingly harsh weather conditions.{{Sfn|Glantz|2001|p=26}} Going against the advice of Zhukov and other generals, Stalin emphasised attack over defence.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=421, 424|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=220}} In June 1941, he ordered a [[scorched earth]] policy of destroying infrastructure and food supplies before the Germans could seize them,{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=482|2a1=Roberts|2y=2006|2p=90}} also commanding the [[NKVD prisoner massacres|NKVD to kill]] around 100,000 political prisoners in areas the Wehrmacht approached.{{Sfn|Gellately|2007|p=391}} He purged the military command; several high-ranking figures were demoted or reassigned and others were arrested and executed.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=239–240|2a1=Roberts|2y=2006|2p=98|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=209}} With [[Order No. 270]], Stalin commanded soldiers risking capture to fight to the death, describing the captured as traitors;{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=241|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=210}} among those taken as a [[prisoner of war]] was Stalin's son [[Yakov Dzhugashvili|Yakov]], who died in German custody.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=241–242|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=521}} Stalin issued [[Order No. 227]] in July 1942, which directed that those retreating unauthorised would be placed in &quot;penal battalions&quot; and used as [[cannon fodder]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Roberts|1y=2006|1p=132|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=223}} Both the German and Soviet armies disregarded the [[law of war|laws of war]] in the [[Geneva Conventions]];{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=423}} the Soviets heavily publicised Nazi massacres of communists, Jews, and [[Romani people|Romani]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=422}} In April 1942, Stalin sponsored the formation of the [[Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee]] (JAC) to garner global Jewish support for the war effort.{{Sfn|Overy|2004|p=568}} [[File:RIAN archive 602161 Center of Stalingrad after liberation.jpg|thumb|left|The centre of [[Stalingrad]] after its liberation, February 1943]] The Soviets allied with the UK and U.S.;{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=211}} although the U.S. joined the war against Germany in 1941, little direct American assistance reached the Soviets until late 1942.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=423}} Responding to the invasion, the Soviets expanded their industry in central Russia, focusing almost entirely on military production.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=421}} They achieved high levels of productivity, outstripping Germany.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=422}} During the war, Stalin was more tolerant of the [[Russian Orthodox Church]] and allowed it to resume some of its activities.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=442–443|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=242–243}} He also permitted a wider range of cultural expression, notably permitting formerly suppressed writers and artists like [[Anna Akhmatova]] and [[Dmitri Shostakovich]] to disperse their work more widely.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=441}} &quot;[[The Internationale]]&quot; was dropped as the country's [[national anthem]], to be replaced with [[State Anthem of the Soviet Union|a more patriotic song]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=442}} The government increasingly promoted [[Pan-Slavist]] sentiment,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=446}} while encouraging increased criticism of [[cosmopolitanism]], particularly &quot;rootless cosmopolitanism&quot;, an approach with particular repercussions for Soviet Jews.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=446–447}} The Communist International was dissolved in 1943,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=260|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=444}} and Stalin began encouraging foreign Marxist–Leninist parties to emphasise nationalism over internationalism in order to broaden their domestic appeal.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=446}} In April 1942, Stalin overrode Stavka by ordering the Soviets' first serious counter-attack, an attempt to seize German-held [[Kharkov]] in eastern Ukraine. This attack proved unsuccessful.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=254|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=424|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3pp=221–222}} That year, Hitler shifted his primary goal from an overall victory on the Eastern Front to the goal of securing the oil fields in the southern Soviet Union crucial to a long-term German war effort.{{Sfn|Roberts|2006|pp=117–118}} While Red Army generals saw evidence that Hitler would shift efforts south, Stalin considered this to be a flanking move in a renewed effort to take Moscow.{{Sfn|Roberts|2006|p=124}} In June 1942, the German Army began a [[Case Blue|major offensive]] in Southern Russia, threatening Stalingrad; Stalin ordered the Red Army to hold the city at all costs,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=425}} resulting in the protracted [[Battle of Stalingrad]], which became the bloodiest and fiercest battle of the entire war.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=426}} In February 1943, the German forces attacking Stalingrad surrendered.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=428|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=225}} The Soviet victory there marked a major turning point in the war;{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=225}} in commemoration, Stalin declared himself [[Marshal of the Soviet Union]] in March.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=429|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=226 |3a1=''Journal of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR'', 13 March 1943}} === 1942–1945: Soviet counter-attack === [[File:Teheran conference-1943.jpg|thumb|The Big Three: Stalin, U.S. President [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]], and British Prime Minister [[Winston Churchill]] at the [[Tehran Conference]], November 1943]] By November 1942, the Soviets had begun to repulse the German southern campaign and, although there were 2.5&amp;nbsp;million Soviet casualties in that effort, it permitted the Soviets to take the offensive for most of the rest of the war on the Eastern Front.{{Sfn|Roberts|2006|p=155}} In summer 1943, Germany [[Battle of Kursk|attempted an encirclement attack at Kursk]], which was successfully repulsed by the Soviets.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=255|2a1=Roberts|2y=2006|2p=156|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=227}} By the end of the year, the Soviets occupied half of the territory taken by the Germans to that point.{{Sfn|Roberts|2006|p=159}} Soviet military industrial output also had increased substantially from late 1941 to early 1943 after Stalin had moved factories well to the east of the front, safe from invasion and aerial assault.{{Sfn|Roberts|2006|p=163}} In Allied countries, Stalin was increasingly depicted in a positive light over the course of the war.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=452}} In 1941, the [[London Philharmonic Orchestra]] performed a concert to celebrate his birthday,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=466}} and in 1942, ''[[Time (magazine)|Time]]'' magazine named him &quot;[[Time Person of the Year|Man of the Year]]&quot;.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=452}} When Stalin learnt that people in Western countries affectionately called him &quot;Uncle Joe&quot; he was initially offended, regarding it as undignified.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=317|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=466}} There remained mutual suspicions between Stalin, British Prime Minister [[Winston Churchill]], and U.S. President [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]], together known as the &quot;Big Three&quot;.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=458}} Churchill flew to Moscow to visit Stalin in August 1942 and again in October 1944.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=252|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=460|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|2pp=224, 244}} Stalin scarcely left Moscow during the war,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=456}} frustrating Roosevelt and Churchill with his reluctance to meet them.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=460}} In November 1943, Stalin met with Churchill and Roosevelt [[Tehran Conference|in Tehran]], a location of Stalin's choosing.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=262|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=460|3a1=Roberts|3y=2006|3p=180|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4pp=229–230}} There, Stalin and Roosevelt got on well, with both desiring the post-war dismantling of the [[British Empire]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=462}} At Tehran, the trio agreed that to prevent Germany rising to military prowess yet again, the German state should be broken up.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=463}} Roosevelt and Churchill also agreed to Stalin's demand that the German city of [[Königsberg]] be declared Soviet territory.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=463}} Stalin was impatient for the UK and U.S. to open up a [[Western Front (World War II)|Western Front]] to take the pressure off of the East; they eventually did so in mid-1944.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=244, 251|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=461, 469|3a1=Roberts|3y=2006|3p=185|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4pp=223, 229}} Stalin insisted that, after the war, the Soviet Union should incorporate the portions of Poland it had occupied in 1939, which Churchill opposed.{{Sfn|Roberts|2006|pp=186–187}} Discussing the fate of the Balkans, later in 1944 Churchill agreed to Stalin's suggestion that after the war, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, and Yugoslavia would come under the Soviet sphere of influence while Greece would come under that of the Western powers.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=464–465|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=244}} [[File:Soviet soldiers in Polozk (Belarus), passing by propaganda poster celebrating the reconquest of the city and urging the liberation of the Baltic from Nazi German occupation. July 4, 1944.jpg|thumb|left|Soviet soldiers in [[Polotsk]], July 1944]] In 1944, the Soviet Union made significant advances across Eastern Europe toward Germany,{{Sfn|Roberts|2006|pp=194–195}} including [[Operation Bagration]], a massive offensive in the [[Byelorussian SSR]] against the German Army Group Centre.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=469|2a1=Roberts|2y=2006|2pp=199–201}} In 1944, the German armies were pushed out of the Baltic states, which were then re-annexed into the Soviet Union.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=492}} As the Red Army reconquered the Caucasus and Crimea, various ethnic groups living in the region—the [[Kalmyks]], [[Chechens]], [[Ingush people|Ingushi]], [[Karachai]], [[Balkars]], and [[Crimean Tatars]]—were accused of [[Collaboration with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy|having collaborated with the Germans]]. Using the idea of [[collective responsibility]] as a basis, Stalin's government abolished their autonomous republics and between late 1943 and 1944 deported the majority of their populations to Central Asia and Siberia.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=258|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=492|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3pp=232–233}} Over one million people were deported as a result of the policy, with high rates of mortality.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=233}} In February 1945, the three leaders met at the [[Yalta Conference]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=264|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=465|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=244}} Roosevelt and Churchill conceded to Stalin's demand that Germany pay the Soviet Union 20&amp;nbsp;billion dollars in reparations, and that his country be permitted to annex [[Sakhalin]] and the [[Kuril Islands]] in exchange for entering the war against Japan.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=465–466}} An agreement was also made that a post-war Polish government should be a coalition consisting of both communist and conservative elements.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=465–466|2a1=Roberts|2y=2006|2pp=241–244}} Privately, Stalin sought to ensure that Poland would come fully under Soviet influence.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=471|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=245}} The Red Army withheld assistance to Polish resistance fighters battling the Germans in the [[Warsaw Uprising]], with Stalin believing that any victorious Polish militants could interfere with his future aspirations to dominate Poland.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=471–472|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=244}} Stalin placed great emphasis on capturing Berlin before the Western Allies, believing that this would enable him to bring more of Europe under long-term Soviet control. Churchill, concerned by this, unsuccessfully tried to convince the U.S. that they should pursue the same goal.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=473}} === 1945: Victory === [[File:USA C-1860 (26246410746).jpg|thumb|British Prime Minister [[Clement Attlee]], U.S. President [[Harry S. Truman]] and Stalin at the [[Potsdam Conference]], July 1945]] In April 1945, the Red Army [[Battle of Berlin|seized Berlin]], [[Death of Adolf Hitler|Hitler killed himself]], and Germany surrendered in May.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=474|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=247}} Stalin had wanted Hitler captured alive; he had his remains brought to Moscow in order to prevent them becoming a relic for Nazi sympathisers.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=479–480}} Many Soviet soldiers engaged in looting, pillaging, and rape, both in Germany and parts of Eastern Europe.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=265|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=473|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=234}} Stalin refused to punish the offenders.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=473}} With Germany defeated, Stalin switched focus to the [[Soviet–Japanese War|war with Japan]], transferring half a million troops to the Far East.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=474}} Stalin was pressed by his allies to enter the war and wanted to cement the Soviet Union's strategic position in Asia.{{Sfnm|Glantz|1983|p=xvii}} On 8 August, in between the U.S. [[atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki]], the Soviet army [[Soviet invasion of Manchuria|invaded Japanese-occupied Manchuria]] and northern Korea, defeating the [[Kwantung Army]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=476|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=248–249}} These events led to the [[Japanese surrender]] and the war's end.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=268|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=248}} The U.S. rebuffed Stalin's desire for the Red Army to take a role in the Allied [[occupation of Japan]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=267|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=249}} At the [[Potsdam Conference]] in July–August 1945, Stalin repeated previous promises that he would refrain from a &quot;Sovietisation&quot; of Eastern Europe.{{Sfn|Roberts|2006|pp=274–275}} Stalin pushed for reparations from Germany without regard to the base minimum supply for German citizens' survival, which worried [[Harry Truman]] and Churchill, who thought that Germany would become a financial burden for the Western powers.{{Sfn|Wettig|2008|pp=90–91}} Stalin also pushed for &quot;war booty&quot;, which would permit the Soviet Union to directly seize property from conquered nations without quantitative or qualitative limitation, and a clause was added permitting this to occur with some limitations.{{Sfn|Wettig|2008|pp=90–91}} Germany was divided into four zones: Soviet, U.S., British, and French, with Berlin—located in the Soviet area—also divided thusly.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=506}} ==Post-war era == === 1945–1947: Post-war reconstruction === After the war, Stalin was at the apex of his career.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=481}} Within the Soviet Union he was widely regarded as the embodiment of victory and patriotism,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=484}} and his armies controlled [[Central and Eastern Europe]] up to the [[River Elbe]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=481}} In June 1945, Stalin adopted the title of [[Generalissimo of the Soviet Union|Generalissimo]]{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=493|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=247}} and stood atop Lenin's Mausoleum to watch [[Moscow Victory Parade of 1945|a celebratory parade]] led by Zhukov through Red Square.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=480–481}} At a banquet held for army commanders, he described the Russian people as &quot;the outstanding nation&quot; and &quot;leading force&quot; within the Soviet Union, the first time that he had unequivocally endorsed Russians over the other Soviet nationalities.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=479}} In 1946, the state published Stalin's ''Collected Works''.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=541}} In 1947, it brought out a second edition of his official biography, which glorified him to a greater extent than its predecessor.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=543–544}} He was quoted in ''Pravda'' on a daily basis and pictures of him remained pervasive on the walls of workplaces and homes.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=548}} [[File:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-R78376, Budapest, II. Weltfestspiele, Festumzug, Komsomolzen.jpg|thumb|upright=0.8|left|Banner of Stalin in [[Budapest]] in 1949]] Despite his strengthened international position, Stalin was cautious about internal dissent and desire for change among the population.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=485|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=262}} He was also concerned about his returning armies, who had been exposed to a wide range of consumer goods in Germany, much of which they had looted and brought back with them. In this he recalled the 1825 [[Decembrist Revolt]] by Russian soldiers returning from having defeated France in the [[Napoleonic Wars]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=485}} He ensured that returning Soviet prisoners of war went through &quot;filtration&quot; camps as they arrived in the Soviet Union, in which 2,775,700 were interrogated to determine if they were traitors. About half were then imprisoned in labour camps.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=493|2a1=Roberts|2y=2006|2p=202}} In the Baltic states, where there was much opposition to Soviet rule, de-kulakisation and de-clericalisation programmes were initiated, resulting in 142,000 deportations between 1945 and 1949.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=492}} The Gulag system of forced labour camps was expanded further. By January 1953, three percent of the Soviet population was imprisoned or in internal exile, with 2.8&amp;nbsp;million in &quot;special settlements&quot; in isolated areas and another 2.5&amp;nbsp;million in camps, penal colonies, and prisons.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=268}} The NKVD were ordered to catalogue the scale of destruction during the war.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=482}} It was established that 1,710 Soviet towns and 70,000 villages had been destroyed.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=482–483}} The NKVD recorded that [[World War II casualties of the Soviet Union|between 26 and 27 million Soviet citizens had been killed]], with millions more being wounded, malnourished, or orphaned.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=482|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=261}} In the war's aftermath, some of Stalin's associates suggested modifications to government policy.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=500}} Post-war Soviet society was more tolerant than its pre-war phase in various respects. Stalin allowed the Russian Orthodox Church to retain the churches it had opened during the war,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=496}} and academia and the arts were also allowed greater freedom.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=497}} Recognising the need for drastic steps to be taken to combat inflation and promote economic recovery, in December 1947 Stalin's government devalued the rouble and abolished the food rationing system.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=497|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=274–278}} Capital punishment was abolished in 1947 but re-instituted in 1950.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=289}} Stalin's health deteriorated,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=269|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=491}} and he grew increasingly concerned that senior figures might try to oust him.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=526|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=268}} He demoted Molotov,{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=531–532|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=272–273}} and increasingly favoured Beria and Malenkov for key positions.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=534}} In the [[Leningrad Affair|Leningrad affair]], the city's leadership was purged amid accusations of treachery; executions of many of the accused took place in 1950.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=534–535|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=282}} In the post-war period there were often food shortages in Soviet cities,{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=300–301}} and the USSR experienced a major [[Soviet famine of 1946–47|famine from 1946 to 1947]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=498|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=261}} Sparked by a drought and ensuing bad harvest in 1946, it was exacerbated by government policy towards food procurement, including the state's decision to build up stocks and export food rather than distributing it to famine-hit areas.{{Sfn|Ellman|2000|pp=611, 618–620}} Estimates indicate that between one million and 1.5&amp;nbsp;million people died from malnutrition or disease as a result.{{Sfnm|1a1=Ellman|1y=2000|1p=622|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=261}} While agricultural production stagnated, Stalin focused on a series of major infrastructure projects, including the construction of hydroelectric plants, canals, and railway lines running to the polar north.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=299}} Many of these were constructed through prison labour.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=299}} === 1947–1950: Cold War policy === [[File:Mao, Bulganin, Stalin, Ulbricht Tsedenbal.jpeg|thumb|right|225px|Stalin at his 70th birthday celebration with (left to right) [[Mao Zedong]], [[Nikolai Bulganin]], [[Walter Ulbricht]] and [[Yumjaagiin Tsedenbal]], 1949]] In the aftermath of the war, the British Empire declined, leaving the U.S. and USSR as the dominant world powers.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=502–503}} Tensions among these former Allies grew,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=484}} resulting in the [[Cold War]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=503}} Although Stalin publicly described the British and U.S. governments as aggressive, he thought it unlikely that a war with them would be imminent, believing that several decades of peace was likely.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=487}} He nevertheless secretly intensified Soviet research into nuclear weaponry, intent on creating an [[atom bomb]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=481}} Still, Stalin foresaw the undesirability of a nuclear conflict, stating that &quot;atomic weapons can hardly be used without spelling the end of the world.&quot;{{Sfn|Gaddis|2005|p=57}} He personally took a keen interest in the development of the weapon.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=508}} In August 1949, the bomb was successfully tested in the [[Semipalatinsk Test Site|deserts outside Semipalatinsk]] in Kazakhstan.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=508|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=293}} Stalin also initiated a new military build-up; the Soviet army was expanded from 2.9&amp;nbsp;million soldiers, as it stood in 1949, to 5.8&amp;nbsp;million by 1953.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=297}} The U.S. began pushing its interests on every [[continent]], acquiring air force bases in Africa and Asia and ensuring pro-U.S. regimes took power across Latin America.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=502}} It launched the [[Marshall Plan]] in June 1947, with which it sought to undermine Soviet [[hegemony]] throughout Eastern Europe. The U.S. offered financial assistance to countries on the condition that they opened their markets to trade, aware that the Soviets would never agree.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=504|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=267}} The Allies demanded that Stalin withdraw the Red Army from northern Iran. He initially refused, leading to an [[Iran crisis of 1946|international crisis in 1946]], but relented one year later.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=504}} Stalin also tried to maximise Soviet influence on the world stage, unsuccessfully pushing for Libya—recently liberated from Italian occupation—to become a Soviet protectorate.&lt;ref name=&quot;SergeiMazovTheSovietUnionTheItalianColoniesColdWarHistory2006&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Mazov |first=Sergei |date=9 August 2006 |title=The USSR and the Former Italian Colonies, 1945–50 |url=https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248952254 |journal=[[Cold War History (journal)|Cold War History]] |volume=3 |issue=3 |pages=49–78 |doi=10.1080/14682740312331391618 |s2cid=153413935 |access-date=19 March 2023 | issn=1468-2745}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=494}} He sent Molotov as his representative to San Francisco to take part in negotiations to form the United Nations, insisting that the Soviets have a place on its [[Security Council]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=503}} In April 1949, the Western powers established the [[North Atlantic Treaty Organisation]] (NATO), an anti-Soviet military alliance led by the U.S.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=507|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=281}} In the West, Stalin was increasingly portrayed as the &quot;most evil dictator alive&quot; and compared to Hitler.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=551}} In 1948, Stalin edited and rewrote sections of ''[[Falsifiers of History]]'', published as a series of ''Pravda'' articles in February 1948 and then in book form. Written in response to public revelations of the 1939 Soviet alliance with Germany, it focused on blaming the Western powers for the war.{{Sfn|Roberts|2002|pp=96–98}} He also erroneously claimed that the initial German advance in the early part of the war, during Operation Barbarossa, was not a result of Soviet military weakness, but rather a deliberate Soviet strategic retreat.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=264}} In 1949, celebrations took place to mark Stalin's 70th birthday (although he actually was turning 71 at the time) at which Stalin attended an event at the [[Bolshoi Theatre]] alongside Marxist–Leninist leaders from across Europe and Asia.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=296|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=548–549|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=290}} ====Eastern Bloc==== [[File:EasternBloc BasicMembersOnly.svg|thumb|[[Eastern Bloc]] during the Cold War]] After the war, Stalin sought to retain Soviet dominance across Eastern Europe while expanding its influence in Asia.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=492}} Cautiously regarding the responses from the Western Allies, Stalin avoided immediately installing Communist Party governments in Eastern Europe, instead initially ensuring that Marxist-Leninists were placed in coalition ministries.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=494}} In contrast to his approach to the Baltic states, he rejected the proposal of merging the new communist states into the Soviet Union, rather recognising them as independent nation-states.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=517}} He was faced with the problem that there were few Marxists left in Eastern Europe, with most having been killed by the Nazis.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=483}} He demanded that war reparations be paid by Germany and its Axis allies Hungary, Romania, and the [[Slovak Republic (1939–1945)|Slovak Republic]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=484}} Aware that the countries of Eastern Europe had been pushed to socialism through invasion rather than revolution, Stalin called them &quot;people's democracies&quot; instead of &quot;dictatorships of the proletariat&quot;.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=518}} Churchill observed that an &quot;[[Iron Curtain]]&quot; had been drawn across Europe, separating the east from the west.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=279|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=503}} In September 1947, a meeting of East European communist leaders established [[Cominform]] to co-ordinate the Communist Parties across Eastern Europe and also in France and Italy.{{Sfnm |1a1=Conquest |1y=1991 |1p=286 |2a1=Service |2y=2004 |2p=506 |3a1=Khlevniuk |3y=2015 |3p=267}} Stalin did not personally attend the meeting, sending [[Andrei Zhdanov]] in his place.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=506}} Various East European communists also visited Stalin in Moscow.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=511}} There, he offered advice on their ideas; for instance, he cautioned against the Yugoslav idea for a [[Balkan Federation]] incorporating Bulgaria and Albania.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=511}} Stalin had a particularly strained relationship with Yugoslav leader [[Josip Broz Tito]] due to the latter's continued calls for a Balkan federation and for Soviet aid for the communist forces in the ongoing [[Greek Civil War]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=286–287|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=515}} In March 1948, Stalin launched an anti-Tito campaign, accusing the Yugoslav communists of adventurism and deviating from Marxist–Leninist doctrine.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=515}} At the second Cominform conference, held in Bucharest in June 1948, East European communist leaders all denounced Tito's government, accusing them of being fascists and agents of Western capitalism.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=516}} Stalin ordered several assassination attempts on Tito's life and even contemplated an invasion of Yugoslavia itself.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=287}} Stalin suggested that a unified, but demilitarised, German state be established, hoping that it would either come under Soviet influence or remain neutral.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=507}} When the U.S. and UK opposed this, Stalin sought to force their hand by [[Berlin Blockade|blockading Berlin]] in June 1948.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=280|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=507|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=281}} He gambled that the Western powers would not risk war, but they airlifted supplies into West Berlin until May 1949, when Stalin relented and ended the blockade.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=507|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=281}} In September 1949 the Western powers transformed their zones into an independent [[Federal Republic of Germany]]; in response the Soviets formed theirs into the [[German Democratic Republic]] in October.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=507}} In accordance with earlier agreements, the Western powers expected Poland to become an independent state with free democratic elections.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=476}} In Poland, the Soviets merged various socialist parties into the [[Polish United Workers' Party]] (PZPR), and [[vote rigging]] was used to ensure that the PZPR secured office.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=515}} The 1947 Hungarian elections were also rigged by Stalin, with the [[Hungarian Working People's Party]] taking control.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=515}} In Czechoslovakia, where the communists did have a level of popular support, they were elected the largest party in 1946.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=512, 513}} Monarchy was abolished in Bulgaria and Romania.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=513}} Across Eastern Europe, the Soviet model was enforced, with a termination of political pluralism, agricultural collectivisation, and investment in heavy industry.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=516}} It was aimed at establishing economic [[autarky]] within the Eastern Bloc.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=516}} ====Asia==== [[File:Ji8, 3-1, Sino-Soviet Friendship, 1950.jpg|thumb|right|1950 Chinese stamp depicting Stalin and Mao shaking hands, commemorating the signing of the new [[Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship, Alliance and Mutual Assistance|Sino-Soviet Treaty]]]] In October 1949, [[Chairman of the Chinese Communist Party|Chinese Communist Party chairman]] [[Mao Zedong]] took power in China and proclaimed the [[People's Republic of China]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=301|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=509|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=286}} Marxist governments now controlled a third of the world's land mass.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=509}} Privately, Stalin revealed that he had underestimated the Chinese Communists and their ability to win the civil war, instead encouraging them to make another peace with the KMT.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=553}} In December 1949, Mao visited Stalin. Initially Stalin refused to repeal the [[Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship and Alliance|Sino-Soviet Treaty of 1945]], which significantly benefited the Soviet Union over China, although in January 1950 he relented and agreed to sign [[Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship, Alliance and Mutual Assistance|a new treaty]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=509|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=287–291}} Stalin was concerned that Mao might follow Tito's example by pursuing a course independent of Soviet influence, and made it known that if displeased he would withdraw assistance; the Chinese desperately needed said assistance after decades of civil war.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=552|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=287}} At the end of World War II, the Soviet Union and the United States divided up the Korean Peninsula, formerly a Japanese colonial possession, along the [[Division of Korea|38th parallel]], setting up a communist government in the north and a pro-Western, anti-communist government in the south.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=552|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=294}} North Korean leader [[Kim Il Sung]] visited Stalin in March 1949 and again in March 1950; he wanted to invade the south, and although Stalin was initially reluctant to provide support, he eventually agreed by May 1950.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=302|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=553|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3pp=294–295}} The [[North Korean Army]] launched the [[Korean War]] by invading South Korea in June 1950, making swift gains and capturing [[Seoul]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=554}} Both Stalin and Mao believed that a swift victory would ensue.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=554}} The U.S. went to the UN Security Council—which the Soviets were boycotting over its refusal to recognise Mao's government—and secured international military support for the South Koreans. U.S. led forces pushed the North Koreans back.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=554|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=295–296}} Stalin wanted to avoid direct Soviet conflict with the U.S., and convinced the Chinese to enter the war to aid the North in October 1950.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=555–556|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=296}} The Soviet Union was one of the first nations to extend diplomatic recognition to the newly created [[state of Israel]] in 1948, in hopes of obtaining an ally in the Middle East.{{Sfn|Yegorov, 15 December 2017}} When the Israeli ambassador [[Golda Meir]] arrived in the USSR, Stalin was angered by the Jewish crowds who gathered to greet her.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=291}} He was further angered by Israel's [[Israel–United States relations|growing alliance with the U.S.]]{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=285}} After Stalin fell out with Israel, he launched an anti-Jewish campaign within the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=518}} In November 1948, he abolished the JAC,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=291|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=577|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=284}} and show trials took place for some of its members.{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=567|2a1=Brackman|2y=2001|2pp=384–385}} The Soviet press engaged in vituperative attacks on [[Zionism]], Jewish culture, and &quot;rootless cosmopolitanism&quot;,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=291|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=308–309}} with growing levels of antisemitism being expressed across Soviet society.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=576–577}} Stalin's increasing tolerance of antisemitism may have stemmed from his increasing Russian nationalism or from the recognition that antisemitism had proved a useful tool for Hitler;{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=290}} he may have increasingly viewed the Jewish people as a &quot;counter-revolutionary&quot; nation.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=286}} There were rumours that Stalin was planning on deporting all Soviet Jews to the [[Jewish Autonomous Region]] in [[Birobidzhan]] in Siberia.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=577|2a1=Overy|2y=2004|2p=565|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=309}} === 1950–1953: Final years === [[File:Vrachi-timashuk.png|thumb|upright|Decree dated 20 January 1953 awarding Lydia Timashuk the [[Order of Lenin]] for &quot;unmasking doctors-killers&quot;. Revoked after Stalin's death later that year.]] In his later years, Stalin was in poor health.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=571}} He took increasingly long holidays; in 1950 and again in 1951 he spent almost five months on holiday at his Abkhazian dacha.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=572|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=195}} Stalin nevertheless mistrusted his doctors; in January 1952 he had one imprisoned after they suggested that he should retire to improve his health.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=571}} In September 1952, several Kremlin doctors were arrested for allegedly plotting to kill senior politicians in what came to be known as the [[doctors' plot]]; the majority of the accused were Jewish.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=309|2a1=Etinger|2y=1995|2p=104|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=576|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=307}} Stalin ordered that the doctors be tortured to ensure confessions.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=309|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=307–308}} In November, the [[Slánský trial]] took place in Czechoslovakia, in which 13 senior Communist Party figures, 11 of them Jewish, were accused and convicted of being part of a vast Zionist-American conspiracy to subvert the Eastern Bloc.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=308|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=307}} The same month, a much publicised trial of accused Jewish industrial wreckers took place in Ukraine.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=308}} In 1951, Stalin initiated the [[Mingrelian affair]], a purge of the Georgian Communist Party which resulted in over 11,000 deportations.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=304–305}} From 1946 until his death, Stalin only gave three public speeches, two of which lasted only a few minutes.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=560}} The amount of written material that he produced also declined.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=560}} In 1950, Stalin issued the article &quot;[[Marxism and Problems of Linguistics]]&quot;, which reflected his interest in questions of Russian nationhood.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=564–565}} In 1952, Stalin's last book, ''[[Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR]]'', was published. It sought to provide a guide to leading the country after his death.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=307|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=566–567}} In October 1952, he gave an hour and a half speech at the Central Committee plenum.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=578}} There, he emphasised what he regarded as necessary leadership qualities, and highlighted the weaknesses of potential successors, notably Molotov and Mikoyan.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=579|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=306}} In 1952, he eliminated the Politburo and replaced it with a larger version he named the Presidium.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=305–306}} ====Death, funeral and aftermath==== {{Main|Death and state funeral of Joseph Stalin}} [[File:Stalin's funeral procession entering Manezhnaya Square from Okhotny Ryad.jpg|thumb|Stalin's funeral procession on [[Okhotny Ryad (street)|Okhotny Ryad]]]] On 1 March 1953, Stalin's staff found him semi-conscious on the bedroom floor of his [[Kuntsevo Dacha]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=311|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2pp=571–572|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3pp=582–584|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4pp=142, 191}} He was moved onto a couch and remained there for three days,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=311–312|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=572|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=142}} during which he was hand-fed using a spoon and given various medicines and injections.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=312}} Stalin's condition continued to deteriorate, and he died on 5 March.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=313|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=574|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=586|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=313}} An autopsy revealed that he had died of a [[Intracerebral hemorrhage|cerebral haemorrhage]], and that his cerebral arteries had been severely damaged by [[atherosclerosis]].{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=189}} Stalin's death was announced on 6 March;{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=588}} his body was embalmed,{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=588|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=314}} and then displayed in Moscow's House of Unions for three days.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=317}} The crowds coming to view the body were so large and disorganised that many people were killed in a [[crowd crush]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=588|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=317}} At the funeral on 9 March, attended by hundreds of thousands, Stalin was laid to rest in [[Lenin's Mausoleum]] in Red Square.{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=576|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=589|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=318}} Stalin left neither a designated successor nor a framework within which a peaceful transfer of power could take place.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=310}} The Central Committee met on the day of his death, after which Malenkov, Beria, and Khrushchev emerged as the party's dominant figures.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=586–587}} The system of [[Collective leadership in the Soviet Union|collective leadership]] was restored, and measures introduced to prevent any one member from attaining autocratic domination.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=312}} The collective leadership included [[Georgy Malenkov]], [[Lavrentiy Beria]], [[Vyacheslav Molotov]], [[Kliment Voroshilov]], [[Nikita Khrushchev]], [[Nikolai Bulganin]], [[Lazar Kaganovich]] and [[Anastas Mikoyan]].{{Sfn|Ra'anan|2006|p=20}} Reforms to the Soviet system were immediately implemented.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=591}} Economic reform scaled back mass construction projects, placed a new emphasis on house building, and eased the levels of taxation on the peasantry to stimulate production.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=315}} The new leaders sought rapprochement with Yugoslavia and a less hostile relationship with the U.S.,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=593}} and they pursued a negotiated end to the Korean War in July 1953.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=316}}&lt;ref name=&quot;cohen13&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Cohen |first=Warren I. |title=The New Cambridge History of American Foreign Relations |publisher=Cambridge University Press |year=2013 |isbn=978-1-1390-3251-3 |volume=4: Challenges to American Primacy, 1945 to the Present |pages=58–78 |chapter=The Korean War and Its Consequences |doi=10.1017/CHO9781139032513.006}}&lt;/ref&gt; The imprisoned doctors were released and the antisemitic purges ceased.{{Sfnm|1a1=Etinger|1y=1995|1pp=120–121|2a1=Conquest|2y=1991|2p=314|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=314}} [[Amnesty of 1953|A mass amnesty]] for certain convicts was issued, halving the country's inmate population, and the state security and Gulag systems were reformed.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=315}} ==Political ideology== {{Further|Marxism–Leninism|Stalinism}} [[File:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-18684-0002, Dresden, Tod Stalin, Parade KVP.jpg|thumb|upright=0.8|right|Mourning parade in honour of Stalin in [[Dresden]], [[East Germany]], 1953]] Stalin claimed to have embraced Marxism at the age of 15,{{Sfn|Rieber|2005|p=32}} and it served as the guiding philosophy throughout his adult life;{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=9}} according to Kotkin, Stalin held &quot;zealous Marxist convictions&quot;,{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=xi}} while Montefiore suggested that Marxism held a &quot;quasi-religious&quot; value for Stalin.{{Sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=336}} Although he never became a [[Georgian nationalism|Georgian nationalist]],{{Sfn|Rieber|2005|p=43}} during his early life elements from Georgian nationalist thought blended with Marxism in his outlook.{{Sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=67}} Stalin believed in the need to adapt Marxism to changing circumstances; in 1917, he declared that &quot;there is dogmatic Marxism and there is creative Marxism. I stand on the ground of the latter&quot;.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=136|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=205|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=47}} According to scholar [[Robert Service (historian)|Robert Service]], Stalin's &quot;few innovations in ideology were crude, dubious developments of Marxism&quot;.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=9}} Stalin believed in an inevitable &quot;[[class war]]&quot; between the world's proletariat and [[bourgeoisie]]{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=93|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=7}} in which the working classes would prove victorious and establish a [[dictatorship of the proletariat]],{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=93}} regarding the Soviet Union as an example of such a state.{{Sfn|Sandle|1999|p=216}} He also believed that this proletarian state would need to introduce repressive measures against foreign and domestic &quot;enemies&quot; to ensure the full crushing of the propertied classes,{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=93–94}} and thus the class war would intensify with the advance of socialism.{{Sfnm|1a1=Sandle|1y=1999|1p=214|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=8}} As a propaganda tool, the shaming of &quot;enemies&quot; explained all inadequate economic and political outcomes, the hardships endured by the populace, and military failures.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=8}}[[File:Stalin birthday2.jpg|thumb|Chinese Marxists celebrate Stalin's 70th birthday in 1949|left]] Stalin adhered to the [[Leninist]] variant of Marxism.{{Sfnm|1a1=Deutscher|1y=1966|1p=86|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2pp=10, 699}} In his book, [[The Foundations of Leninism|''Foundations of Leninism'']], he stated that &quot;Leninism is the Marxism of the epoch of imperialism and of the proletarian revolution&quot;.{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=545}} He claimed to be a loyal Leninist,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=92}} although was—according to Service—&quot;not a blindly obedient Leninist&quot;.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=94}} Stalin respected Lenin, but not uncritically,{{Sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=211}} and spoke out when he believed that Lenin was wrong.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=94}} During the period of his revolutionary activity, Stalin regarded some of Lenin's views and actions as being the self-indulgent activities of a spoilt émigré, deeming them counterproductive for those Bolshevik activists based within the Russian Empire itself.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=95|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=211}} After the October Revolution, they continued to have differences,{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=179–180}} although Kotkin suggested that Stalin's friendship with Lenin was &quot;the single most important relationship in Stalin's life&quot;.{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=531}} Stalin viewed nations as contingent entities which were formed by capitalism and could merge into others.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=98}} Ultimately, he believed that all nations would merge into a single, global community,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=98}} and regarded all nations as inherently equal.{{Sfn|Overy|2004|p=552}} In his work, he stated that &quot;the right of secession&quot; should be offered to the ethnic minorities of the Russian Empire, but that they should not be encouraged to take that option.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=99}} He was of the view that if they became fully autonomous, then they would end up being controlled by the most reactionary elements of their community.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=99}} Stalin's push for Soviet westward expansion into Eastern Europe resulted in accusations of [[Russian imperialism]].{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=5}} ==Personal life and characteristics== Ethnically Georgian,{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=1}} Stalin grew up speaking the Georgian language,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=1|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=97}} and did not begin learning Russian until age eight or nine.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=97}} It has been argued that his ancestry was genetically [[Ossetian people|Ossetian]], but he never acknowledged an Ossetian identity.{{Sfn|Foltz|2021|pp=94–97}} He remained proud of his Georgian identity,{{Sfn|Montefiore|2007|pp=66–67}} and throughout his life retained a heavy Georgian accent when speaking Russian.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=1|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2003|2p=2|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=42|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=97}}{{Sfn|Montefiore|2003|p=579}} Some colleagues described him as &quot;Asiatic&quot;, and he supposedly said that &quot;I am not a European man, but an Asian, a Russified Georgian&quot;.{{Sfn|Rieber|2005|p=18}} [[File:Lavrenti Beria Stalins family.jpg|thumb|[[Lavrentiy Beria]] with Stalin's daughter, Svetlana, on his lap, with Stalin and [[Nestor Lakoba]] in the background, 1931]] Described as soft-spoken{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=183|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=5|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2017|3p=5}} and a poor orator,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=149|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=49|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=334|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=52}} Stalin's style was &quot;simple and clear, without flights of fancy, catchy phrases or platform [[wikt:histrionics#Noun|histrionics]]&quot;.{{Sfn|Volkogonov|1991|pp=xx–xxi}} He rarely spoke before large audiences and preferred to express himself in writing.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=329}} In adulthood, Stalin measured {{convert|5|ft|7|in|m|abbr=in|order=flip}}.{{sfn|Kotkin|2017|p=40}}{{sfn|Volkogonov|1991|p=65}} His moustached face was pock-marked from [[smallpox]] during childhood; this was airbrushed from published photographs.{{Sfn|Kotkin|2017|p=4}} His left arm had been injured in childhood which left it shorter than his right and lacking in flexibility.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=25|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2pp=13–14}} Stalin was a lifelong smoker, who smoked both a pipe and cigarettes.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=282|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=146 |3a1=Service|3y=2004|3pp=435, 438, 574|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2017|4p=1}} Publicly, he lived relatively plainly, with simple and inexpensive clothing and furniture.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=311 |2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=102|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2003|3pp=36–37|4a1=Service|4y=2004|4pp=497–498}} As leader, Stalin rarely left Moscow unless for holiday;{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=331}} he disliked travel,{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=102, 227}} and refused to by plane.{{Sfnm|1a1=Khlevniuk|1y=2015|1p=195|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2017|2p=3}} In 1934, his [[Kuntsevo Dacha]] was built {{Convert|9|km|mi|abbr=on}} from the Kremlin and became his primary residence.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=215|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2003|2p=103|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=295}} He holidayed in the south USSR every year from 1925 to 1936 and 1945 to 1951,{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=191}} often in [[Abkhazia]], being a friend of its leader, [[Nestor Lakoba]].{{Sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2003|1pp=66–67|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=296}} ===Personality=== [[File:Stalin Full Image.jpg|thumb|left|upright=0.8|Stalin in 1937]] Trotsky and several other Soviet figures promoted the idea that Stalin was a mediocrity,{{sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=xvi|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=xxiii|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=4|4a1=Montefiore|4y=2007|4p=xxiv}} a characterisation which gained widespread acceptance outside of the Soviet Union during his lifetime.{{sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=xxiv}} However, historians note that he possessed a complex mind,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=343}} remarkable self-control,{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=8|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=337}} and excellent memory.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1pp=193, 274|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=63|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=115|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=425|5a1=Khlevniuk|5y=2015|5p=148}} Stalin was a diligent worker{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=42|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=353|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3pp=424, 465, 597}} and an effective and strategic organiser,{{Sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2003|1p=42|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=424}} with a keen interest in learning.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=115}} As a leader, he meticulously scrutinised details, from film scripts to military plans,{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=4–5}} and judged others by their inner strength and cleverness.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=342}} He was skilled at playing different roles depending on the audience,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=317|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=xxvi|3a1=McDermott|3y=2006|3p=13}} as well as in deception.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=xvi|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=18|3a1=McDermott|3y=2006|3p=13}} Although he could be rude,{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=120|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=648}} Stalin rarely raised his voice;{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=337}} however, as his health deteriorated, he became unpredictable and bad-tempered.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=145}} He could be charming and enjoyed cracking jokes when relaxed.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=115}} At social events, Stalin encouraged singing and drinking, hoping others would drunkenly reveal secrets to him.{{Sfnm|1a1=McCauley|1y=2003|1p=90|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2pp=437, 522–523|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=5}} Stalin lacked compassion,{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=4|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=7}} possibly exacerbated by his repeated imprisonments and exiles,{{Sfn|Volkogonov|1991|p=8}} though he occasionally showed kindness to strangers, even during the Great Purge.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=334}} He could be self-righteous,{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=258|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=285}} resentful,{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=4, 344}} and vindictive,{{Sfnm|1a1=Kotkin|1y=2014|1p=597|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2017|2p=6}} often holding grudges for years.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1pp=10, 344|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2017|2p=5}} By the 1920s, he had become suspicious and conspiratorial, prone to believing in plots against him and international conspiracies.{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=336|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2p=736}} While he never attended torture sessions or executions,{{Sfn|Montefiore|2003|p=175}} Stalin took pleasure in degrading and humiliating people and kept even close associates in a state of &quot;unrelieved fear&quot;.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=5}} Service suggested he had tendencies toward a paranoid and sociopathic personality disorder.{{sfn|Service|2004|p=343}} Historian E.A. Rees believed it was psychopathy that bred Stalin's tyranny, citing a 1927 diagnosis by neuropathologist [[Vladimir Bekhterev]] that described him as a &quot;typical case of severe paranoia&quot;.{{Sfn|Rees|2013|p=219}} Others have linked Stalin's brutality to his commitment to the survival of the Soviet Union and Marxist–Leninist ideology.{{Sfn|McDermott|2006|p=12}} [[File:Stalin 1920-2 1920.07.03.jpg|thumb|Stalin reading a newspaper, 1920]] Stalin had a keen interest in the arts.{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=620}} He protected certain Soviet writers, such as [[Mikhail Bulgakov]], even when their work was criticised as harmful to his regime.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=96}} Stalin enjoyed classical music,{{Sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2003|1p=73|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=6}} owned around 2,700 records,{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=6}} and often attended the [[Bolshoi Theatre]] in the 1930s and 40s.{{Sfn|Volkogonov|1991|pp=127, 148}} His taste was conservative, favouring classical drama, opera, and ballet over what he dismissed as experimental &quot;[[Formalism (art)|formalism]]&quot;,{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=97}} and disliked [[avant-garde]] in the visual arts.{{Sfn|Volkogonov|1991|p=131}} An autodidact despite his limited formal education,{{Sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2003|1p=86|2a1=Kotkin|2y=2014|2pp=117, 676}} Stalin was a voracious reader who kept over 20,000 books,{{Sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2003|1p=86|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=9|3a1=McDermott|3y=2006|3p=19|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2017|4pp=1–2, 5}} with little fiction.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=93}} His favourite subject was history, and he was especially interested in the reigns of Russian leaders [[Ivan the Terrible]], [[Peter the Great]], and [[Catherine the Great]].{{Sfn|Roberts|2022|p=2}} Lenin was his favourite author, but he read and appreciated works by Trotsky and other adversaries.{{Sfn|Roberts|2022|p=2}} ===Relationships and family=== [[File:Joseph Stalin with daughter Svetlana, 1935.jpg|thumb|Stalin carrying his daughter [[Svetlana Alliluyeva|Svetlana]] in 1935|left]] Stalin married his first wife, [[Ekaterina Svanidze]], in 1906. Volkogonov suggested that she was &quot;probably the one human being he had really loved&quot;.{{Sfn|Volkogonov|1991|p=4}} When she died, Stalin allegedly said: &quot;This creature softened my heart of stone. She died and with her died my last warm feelings for humanity.&quot;{{Sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=202}} They had a son, [[Yakov Dzhugashvili|Yakov]], who frequently frustrated and annoyed Stalin.{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=149|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=64|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=167|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=25}} After Yakov was captured by the German Army during World War II, Stalin refused to agree to a prisoner exchange between him and German field marshal [[Friedrich Paulus]], and Yakov died at a Nazi concentration camp in 1943.{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1pp=150–151|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=364}} In exile in [[Solvychegodsk]] in 1910, Stalin had an affair with his landlady, Maria Kuzakova, who in 1911 gave birth to his alleged second son, [[Konstantin Kuzakov]],{{sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=79|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2pp=227, 229, 230–231|3a1=Kotkin|3y=2014|3p=121}} who later taught philosophy at the [[Baltic State Technical University|Leningrad Military Mechanical Institute]], but never met Stalin.{{Sfn|Montefiore|2007|pp=365–366}} In 1914 in [[Kureika (village)|Kureika]], Stalin, aged 35, had a relationship with Lidia Pereprygina, aged 14 (above the legal [[age of consent]] at the time), who allegedly became pregnant with Stalin's child.{{Sfnm|1a1=Suny|1y=2020|1p=559|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=30}}&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Гамов |first=Александр |date=8 November 2018 |title=Stalin promised the gendarmes that he would marry his 14-year-old mistress as soon as she became an adult |url=https://www.kp.ru/daily/26905.4/3949946/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230713032535/https://www.kp.ru/daily/26905.4/3949946/ |archive-date=13 July 2023 |access-date=21 May 2023 |work=Kp.ru -}}&lt;/ref&gt; In December 1914, Pereprygina gave birth to the child, although the infant died soon after.{{Sfn|Montefiore|2007|pp=292–293}} In 1916, Pereprygina was pregnant again. She gave birth to their alleged son, [[Alexander Davydov (soldier)|Alexander Davydov]], in around April 1917. He was raised as the son of a peasant fisherman;{{Sfn|Montefiore|2007|p=366}} Stalin later came to know of the child's existence but showed no interest in him.{{Sfn|Montefiore|2007|pp=298, 300}} Stalin's second wife was [[Nadezhda Alliluyeva]], whom he married in 1919; theirs was not an easy relationship, they often fought.{{Sfn|Montefiore|2003|p=8}} They had two biological children—a son, [[Vasily Dzhugashvili|Vasily]], and daughter, [[Svetlana Alliluyeva|Svetlana]]—and adopted another son, [[Artyom Sergeev]], in 1921.{{Sfn|Montefiore|2003|p=9}} It is unclear if Stalin had a mistress during or after this marriage.{{Sfnm|1a1=Montefiore|1y=2003|1p=13|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=255}} She suspected he was unfaithful,{{Sfn|Montefiore|2003|p=12}} and committed suicide in 1932.{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=154|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2003|2p=16|3a1=Khlevniuk|3y=2015|3p=255}} Stalin regarded Vasily as spoilt and often chastised his behaviour; as Stalin's son, he was swiftly promoted through the Red Army and allowed a lavish lifestyle.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=257, 259–260}} Conversely, Stalin had an affectionate relationship with Svetlana during her childhood,{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=215|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=153|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2003|3pp=9, 227|4a1=Khlevniuk|4y=2015|4p=256}} and was very fond of Artyom.{{Sfn|Montefiore|2003|p=9}} He disapproved of Svetlana's suitors and husbands, which put strain on their relationship.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=260|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=521}} After World War II, he made little time for his children, and his family played a diminishing role in his life.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|pp=250, 259}} After Stalin's death, Svetlana changed her surname to Alliluyeva,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=593}} and defected to the U.S.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=260}} ==Legacy== [[File:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-11500-0497, Berlin, Karl-Marx-Allee, Denkmal Stalin.jpg|thumb|upright=0.8|[[Statue of Joseph Stalin, Berlin|Statue of Stalin]] in [[East Berlin]], 1951. It was removed in 1961 as part of [[de-Stalinisation]].]] The historian [[Robert Conquest]] stated that Stalin perhaps &quot;determined the course of the twentieth century&quot; more than any other individual.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=xi}} Leninists remain divided in their views on Stalin; some view him as Lenin's authentic successor, while others believe he betrayed Lenin's ideas by deviating from them.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=5}} For most Westerners and [[anti-communist]] Russians, he is viewed overwhelmingly negatively as a [[mass murder]]er;{{Sfn|McDermott|2006|p=1}} for significant numbers of Russians and Georgians, he is regarded as a great statesman and state-builder.{{Sfn|McDermott|2006|p=1}} The historian [[Dmitri Volkogonov]] characterised him as &quot;one of the most powerful figures in [[human history]].&quot;{{Sfn|Volkogonov|1991|p=xviii}} According to Service, Stalin strengthened and stabilised the Soviet Union.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=3}} In under three decades, Stalin transformed the country into a major industrial world power,{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=546|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=3}} one which could &quot;claim impressive achievements&quot; in terms of urbanisation, military strength, education and Soviet pride.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=602}} Under his rule, the average Soviet life expectancy grew due to improved living conditions, nutrition and medical care{{Sfn|Wheatcroft|1999}} as mortality rates declined.{{Sfn|Ellman|2002|p=1164}} Although millions of Soviet citizens despised him, support for Stalin was nevertheless widespread throughout Soviet society.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=602}} Conversely, the historian [[Vadim Rogovin]] argued that Stalin's purges &quot;caused losses to the communist movement both in the USSR and throughout the world from which the movement has not recovered to this very day&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Rogovin |first=Vadim Zakharovich |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=PZ92ueBx7MQC |title=1937: Stalin's Year of Terror |date=1998 |publisher=Mehring Books |isbn=978-0-9290-8777-1 |page=xxviii}}&lt;/ref&gt; Similarly, Nikita Khrushchev believed his purges of the [[Old Bolsheviks]] and leading figures in the military and academia had &quot;undoubtedly&quot; weakened the nation.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Khrushchev |first1=Nikita Sergeevich |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uv1zv4FZhFUC&amp;dq=stalin+weaken+soviet+union+old+bolsheviks&amp;pg=PT170 |title=Memoirs of Nikita Khrushchev |last2=Khrushchev |first2=Serge |date=2004 |publisher=Penn State Press |isbn=978-0-2710-2861-3 |page=156 |access-date=3 August 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230813012847/https://books.google.com/books?id=uv1zv4FZhFUC&amp;dq=stalin+weaken+soviet+union+old+bolsheviks&amp;pg=PT170 |archive-date=13 August 2023 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Exponáty v Muzeu.jpg|thumb|left|Interior of the [[Joseph Stalin Museum, Gori|Joseph Stalin Museum]] in [[Gori, Georgia]]]] Stalin's necessity for the Soviet Union's economic development has been questioned, and it has been argued that his policies from 1928 onwards may have been a limiting factor.{{Sfnm|1a1=Cheremukhin|1a2=Golosov|1a3=Guriev|1a4=Tsyvinski|1y=2013|2a1=Dower|2a2=Markevich|2y=2018|2p=246}} Stalin's Soviet Union has been characterised as a [[totalitarian]] state,{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=602|2a1=Khlevniuk|2y=2015|2p=190}} with Stalin its authoritarian leader.{{Sfn|Kotkin|2014|p=732}} Various biographers have described him as a dictator,{{Sfnm|1a1=McCauley|1y=2003|1p=8|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=52|3a1=Montefiore|3y=2007|3p=9|4a1=Kotkin|4y=2014|4p=xii|5a1=Khlevniuk|5y=2015|5p=12}} an [[autocrat]],{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=194|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2p=31|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=370}} or accused him of practising [[Caesarism]].{{Sfn|Volkogonov|1991|p=77}} Montefiore argued that while Stalin initially ruled as part of a Communist Party [[oligarchy]], the government transformed into a personal dictatorship in 1934,{{Sfn|Montefiore|2003|p=124}} with Stalin only becoming &quot;absolute dictator&quot; after March–June 1937, when senior military and NKVD figures were eliminated.{{Sfn|Montefiore|2003|p=215}} In both the Soviet Union and elsewhere he came to be portrayed as an &quot;Oriental [[Despotism|despot]]&quot;.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=xvii|2a1=McDermott|2y=2006|2p=5}} McDermott nevertheless cautioned against &quot;over-simplistic stereotypes&quot;—promoted in the fiction of writers like [[Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn]]—which portrayed Stalin as an omnipotent and omnipresent tyrant who controlled every aspect of Soviet life.{{Sfn|McDermott|2006|pp=5–6}} [[File:May Day in London.jpg|thumb|Supporters of the [[Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist–Leninist)]] carrying a banner of Stalin at a May Day march in London, 2008]] A vast literature devoted to Stalin has been produced.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=ix}} During Stalin's lifetime, his approved biographies were largely [[hagiographic]] in content.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=4}} Stalin ensured that these works gave very little attention to his early life, particularly because he did not wish to emphasise his Georgian origins in a state numerically dominated by Russians.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=13}} Since his death many more biographies have been written,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=6}} although until the 1980s these relied largely on the same sources of information.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=6}} Under [[Mikhail Gorbachev]]'s Soviet administration various previously classified files on Stalin's life were made available to historians,{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=6}} at which point he became &quot;one of the most urgent and vital issues on the public agenda&quot; in the Soviet Union.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=xiii}} After the dissolution of the Union in 1991, the rest of the archives were opened to historians, resulting in much new information about Stalin coming to light,{{Sfnm|1a1=Service|1y=2004|1p=6|2a1=Montefiore|2y=2007|2p=xxi}} and producing a flood of new research.{{Sfn|Khlevniuk|2015|p=ix}} ===Death toll === {{Main|Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin}} [[File:GULag 2 Museum Moscow Russia.jpg|thumb|Interior of the [[Gulag]] Museum in Moscow]] Before the [[dissolution of the Soviet Union]] and the archival revelations, some Western historians estimated that the numbers killed by Stalin's regime were 20 million or higher.&lt;ref&gt;[[Robert Conquest]]. ''The Great Terror.'' NY Macmillan, 1968 p. 533 (20 million)&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[[Anton Antonov-Ovseyenko]], ''The Time of Stalin,'' NY Harper &amp; Row 1981. p. 126 (30–40 million)&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Elliot, Gill. ''Twentieth Century Book of the Dead.'' Penguin Press 1972. pp. 223–24 (20 million)&lt;/ref&gt; The [[scholarly consensus]] affirms that Soviet archival materials declassified in 1991 contain irrefutable data much lower than Western sources used prior to 1991, such as statements from [[emigres]] and other informants.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Healey|first=Dan|date=2018-06-01|title=Golfo Alexopoulos. Illness and Inhumanity in Stalin's Gulag.|url=https://doi.org/10.1093/ahr/123.3.1049|journal=The American Historical Review|volume=123|issue=3|pages=1049–1051|doi=10.1093/ahr/123.3.1049|issn=0002-8762|quote=New studies using declassified Gulag archives have provisionally established a consensus on mortality and “inhumanity.”}}&lt;/ref&gt; After the [[Soviet Union]] dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives was declassified, and researchers were allowed to study it. This contained official records of 799,455 executions (1921–1953),&lt;ref&gt;[http://m.guardian.co.uk/education/2002/sep/12/highereducation.historyandhistoryofart Seumas Milne: &quot;The battle for history&quot;], ''The Guardian''. (12 September 2002). Retrieved 14 July 2013.&lt;/ref&gt; around 1.7&amp;nbsp;million deaths in the [[Gulag]],&lt;ref name=&quot;Pluto Press&quot;&gt;{{cite book |last1=Haynes |first1=Michael |title=A Century of State Murder?: Death and Policy in Twentieth Century Russia |date=2003 |publisher=Pluto Press |isbn=978-0-7453-1930-8 |pages=214–15}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[[Anne Applebaum|Applebaum, Anne]] (2003) ''[[Gulag: A History]].'' [[Doubleday (publisher)|Doubleday]]. {{ISBN|0-7679-0056-1}} pp. 582–583.&lt;/ref&gt; some 390,000&lt;ref name=&quot;The Stalinist Penal System&quot;&gt;{{cite book |last1=Pohl |first1=J. Otto |title=The Stalinist Penal System |date=1997 |publisher=McFarland |isbn=0-7864-0336-5 |page=58}}&lt;/ref&gt; deaths during the [[dekulakization]] forced resettlement, and up to 400,000 deaths of persons [[Forced settlements in the Soviet Union|deported]] during the 1940s,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last1=Pohl |first1=J. Otto |title=The Stalinist Penal System |date=1997 |publisher=McFarland |isbn=0-7864-0336-5 |page=148}} Pohl cites Russian archival sources for the death toll in the special settlements from 1941–49&lt;/ref&gt; with a total of about 3.3 million officially recorded victims in these categories.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal|author=Wheatcroft, Stephen G.|year=1999|title=Victims of Stalinism and the Soviet Secret Police: The Comparability and Reliability of the Archival Data. Not the Last Word|url=http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-Secret_Police.pdf|journal=[[Europe-Asia Studies]]|volume=51|issue=2|pages=315–45|doi=10.1080/09668139999056|quote=During 1921–53, the number of sentences was (political convictions): sentences, 4,060,306; death penalties, 799,473; camps and prisons, 2,634397; exile, 413,512; other, 215,942. In addition, during 1937–52 there were 14,269,753 non-political sentences, among them 34,228 death penalties, 2,066,637 sentences for 0–1 year, 4,362,973 for 2–5 years, 1,611,293 for 6–10 years, and 286,795 for more than 10 years. Other sentences were non-custodial}}&lt;/ref&gt; According to historian [[Stephen G. Wheatcroft|Stephen Wheatcroft]], approximately 1 million of these deaths were &quot;purposive&quot; while the rest happened through neglect and irresponsibility.&lt;ref name=&quot;Wheatcroft1996&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Wheatcroft|first=Stephen|author-link=Stephen G. Wheatcroft|year=1996|title=The Scale and Nature of German and Soviet Repression and Mass Killings, 1930–45|url=http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-German_Soviet.pdf|journal=Europe-Asia Studies|volume=48|issue=8|pages=1334, 1348|doi=10.1080/09668139608412415|jstor=152781|quote=The Stalinist regime was consequently responsible for about a million purposive killings, and through its criminal neglect and irresponsibility it was probably responsible for the premature deaths of about another two million more victims amongst the repressed population, i.e. in the camps, colonies, prisons, exile, in transit and in the POW camps for Germans. These are clearly much lower figures than those for whom Hitler's regime was responsible.}}&lt;/ref&gt; The deaths of at least 3.5 to 6.5 million&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |author1=R. Davies |author2=S. Wheatcroft |title=The Industrialisation of Soviet Russia Volume 5: The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture 1931–1933|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=4s1lCwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA401|date=2009 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |isbn=978-0-230-23855-8 |page=401 }}&lt;/ref&gt; persons in the [[Soviet famine of 1932–1933]] are sometimes, though not always, included with the victims of the [[Stalin era]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Wheatcroft1996&quot;/&gt; Stalin has also been accused of [[Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin#Genocide allegations|genocide]] in the cases of [[Population transfer in the Soviet Union|forced population transfer of ethnic minorities]] across the Soviet Union and the [[Holodomor]] famine{{Sfnm|1a1=Chang|1y=2019|2a1=Moore|2y=2012}} However, British historian [[Michael Ellman]] argues that mass deaths from famines should be placed in a different category than the repression victims, mentioning that throughout [[History of Russia|Russian history]] famines and droughts have been a [[Droughts and famines in Russia and the Soviet Union|common occurrence]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite encyclopedia|url=https://www.britannica.com/event/War-Communism|title=War Communism|encyclopedia=[[Encyclopaedia Britannica]]|author=((The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica))}}&lt;/ref&gt; Famines were widespread throughout the world in the 19th and 20th centuries in countries such as China, India, Ireland, and Russia.{{Sfn|Ellman|2002|p=1172}} Ellman compared the behaviour of the [[Stalinist]] regime to that of the [[British government]] (towards [[Great Famine (Ireland)|Ireland]] and [[Bengal famine of 1943|India]]) and the [[G7]] in contemporary times, and Stalin's &quot;behaviour was no worse than that of many rulers in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.&quot;{{Sfn|Ellman|2002|p=1172}} ===In the Soviet Union and post-Soviet states=== {{See also|Neo-Stalinism|Nostalgia for the Soviet Union}} [[File:RIAN archive 535278 Laying flowers and wreaths to Iosif Stalin's grave at Kremlin wall.jpg|thumb|left|Marxist–Leninist activists from the [[Communist Party of the Russian Federation]] laying wreaths at Stalin's Moscow grave in 2009]] Shortly after his death, the Soviet Union went through a period of [[de-Stalinisation]]. Malenkov denounced the Stalin personality cult,{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=314}} and the cult was subsequently criticised in ''Pravda''.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=592}} In 1956, Khrushchev gave his &quot;Secret Speech&quot;, titled &quot;[[On the Cult of Personality and Its Consequences]]&quot;, to a closed session of the [[20th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union|Party's 20th Congress]]. There, [[Khrushchev Thaw|Khrushchev denounced Stalin]] for both his mass repression and his personality cult.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=314|2a1=Volkogonov|2y=1991|2pp=577–579|3a1=Service|3y=2004|3p=594}} He repeated these denunciations at the [[22nd Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union|22nd Party Congress]] in October 1962.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=594}} In October 1961, Stalin's body was removed from the mausoleum and buried in the [[Kremlin Wall Necropolis]], the location marked by a bust.{{Sfnm|1a1=Volkogonov|1y=1991|1p=576|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=594}} Stalingrad was renamed Volgograd that year.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=595}} Khrushchev's de-Stalinisation process ended when he was replaced as leader by [[Leonid Brezhnev]] in 1964; the latter introduced a level of re-Stalinisation within the Soviet Union.{{Sfnm|1a1=Conquest|1y=1991|1p=315|2a1=Service|2y=2004|2p=595}} In 1969 and again in 1979, plans were proposed for a full rehabilitation of Stalin's legacy but on both occasions were halted due to fears of damaging the USSR's public image.{{Sfn|Conquest|1991|p=315}} [[Mikhail Gorbachev]] saw the total denunciation of Stalin as necessary for the regeneration of Soviet society.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=596}} After the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, [[Boris Yeltsin]] continued Gorbachev's denunciation of Stalin but added to it a denunciation of Lenin.{{Sfn|Service|2004|p=596}} His successor [[Vladimir Putin]] did not seek to rehabilitate Stalin but emphasised the celebration of Soviet achievements under Stalin's leadership rather than the Stalinist repressions.{{Sfn|Service|2004|pp=596–597}} In October 2017, Putin opened the [[Wall of Grief]] memorial in Moscow.{{Sfn|BBC, 5 June 2018}} In recent years, the government and general public of Russia has been accused of rehabilitating Stalin.{{Sfnm|1a1=Nemtsova, 17 May 2021|2a1=Lentine, 25 June 2022}} ==See also== * [[European interwar dictatorships]] * [[List of places named after Joseph Stalin]] * [[List of statues of Joseph Stalin]] ==Explanatory notes== {{Reflist|group=lower-alpha|30em}} ==References== ===Citations=== {{Reflist|23em}} ===Bibliography=== {{See also|Bibliography of Stalinism and the Soviet Union}} ==== Academic books and journals ==== {{Refbegin|30em|indent=yes}} * {{Cite book |last1=Bazhanov |first1=Boris |title=Bazhanov and the Damnation of Stalin |last2=Doyle |first2=David W. |publisher=Ohio University Press |year=1990 |isbn=978-0-5850-7670-6}} * {{Cite book |last=Brackman |first=Roman |title=The Secret File of Joseph Stalin: A Hidden Life |publisher=Frank Cass Publishers |year=2001 |isbn=978-0-7146-5050-0}} * {{Cite book |last=Brackman |first=Roman |title=The Secret File of Joseph Stalin: A Hidden Life |publisher=Frank Cass Publishers |year=2004}} * {{Cite book |last1=Brent |first1=Jonathan |title=Stalin's Last Crime: The Plot Against the Jewish Doctors, 1948–1953 |last2=Naumov |first2=Vladimir |publisher=HarperCollins |year=2004 |isbn=978-0-0620-1367-5}} * {{Cite book |last=Bullock |first=Alan |title=Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives |publisher=Alfred A. Knopf |year=1992}} * {{Cite journal |last=Chang |first=Jon K. |date=8 April 2019 |title=Ethnic Cleansing and Revisionist Russian and Soviet History |journal=Academic Questions |volume=32 |issue=2 |page=270 |doi=10.1007/s12129-019-09791-8 |doi-broken-date=1 November 2024 |s2cid=150711796}} * {{Cite book |last=Conquest |first=Robert |title=[[Stalin: Breaker of Nations]] |publisher=Penguin |year=1991 |isbn=978-0-1401-6953-9}} * {{Cite book |last=Conquest |first=Robert |title=The Great Terror: A Reassessment |publisher=Oxford University Press |year=2008 |isbn=978-0-1953-1699-5 |edition=fortieth anniversary}} * {{Cite book |last=Davies |first=Norman |title=White Eagle, Red Star: The Polish-Soviet War 1919–20 and 'the Miracle on the Vistula' |publisher=Pimlico |year=2003 |isbn=978-0-7126-0694-3 |orig-date=1972}} * {{Cite book |last1=Davies |first1=Robert |title=The Industrialisation of Soviet Russia Volume 5: The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture 1931–1933 |last2=Wheatcroft |first2=Stephen 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Illness and Inhumanity in Stalin's Gulag |url=https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/ou_press/golfo-alexopoulos-illness-and-inhumanity-in-stalin-s-gulag-i363rKPYOp |url-status=live |journal=[[The American Historical Review]] |volume=123 |issue=3 |pages=1049–1051 |doi=10.1093/ahr/123.3.1049 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180708105319/https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/ou_press/golfo-alexopoulos-illness-and-inhumanity-in-stalin-s-gulag-i363rKPYOp |archive-date=8 July 2018 |access-date=23 September 2018}} * {{Cite journal |last=Himmer |first=Robert |year=1986 |title=On the Origin and Significance of the Name &quot;Stalin&quot; |journal=The Russian Review |volume=45 |issue=3 |pages=269–286 |doi=10.2307/130111 |jstor=130111}} * {{Cite book |last=Khlevniuk |first=Oleg V. |title=Stalin: New Biography of a Dictator |publisher=Yale University Press |year=2015 |isbn=978-0-3001-6388-9 |translator-last=Nora Seligman Favorov}} * {{Cite book |last=Kotkin |first=Stephen |title=[[Stalin: Paradoxes of Power, 1878–1928]] |publisher=Allen Lane |year=2014 |isbn=978-0-7139-9944-0}} * {{Cite book |last=Kotkin |first=Stephen |title=[[Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, 1929–1941]] |publisher=Allen Lane |year=2017 |isbn=978-0-7139-9945-7}} * {{Cite journal |last=Kuromiya |first=Hiroaki |year=2008 |title=The Soviet Famine of 1932–1933 Reconsidered |journal=Europe-Asia Studies |volume=60 |issue=4 |pages=663–675 |doi=10.1080/09668130801999912 |jstor=20451530 |s2cid=143876370}} * {{Cite journal |last=Li |first=Hua-yu |year=2009 |title=Reactions of Chinese Citizens to the Death of Stalin: Internal Communist Party Reports |url=https://muse.jhu.edu/article/265885 |url-status=live |journal=Journal of Cold War Studies |volume=11 |issue=2 |pages=70–88 |doi=10.1162/jcws.2009.11.2.70 |s2cid=57561115 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160624003711/https://muse.jhu.edu/article/265885 |archive-date=24 June 2016 |access-date=29 April 2016}} * {{Cite book |last=McCauley |first=Martin |title=Stalin and Stalinism |publisher=Pearson |year=2003 |isbn=978-0-5825-0587-2 |edition=third}} * {{Cite journal |last=McDermott |first=Kevin |year=1995 |title=Stalin and the Comintern during the 'Third Period', 1928–33 |journal=European History Quarterly |volume=25 |issue=3 |pages=409–429 |doi=10.1177/026569149502500304 |s2cid=144922280}} * {{Cite book |last=McDermott |first=Kevin |url=https://archive.org/details/stalinrevolution00mcde |title=Stalin: Revolutionary in an Era of War |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |year=2006 |isbn=978-0-3337-1122-4 |url-access=registration}} * {{Cite book |last=Montefiore |first=Simon Sebag |title=Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar |publisher=Weidenfeld &amp; Nicolson |year=2003 |isbn=978-1-8421-2726-1}} * {{Cite book |last=Montefiore |first=Simon Sebag |title=Young Stalin |publisher=Weidenfeld &amp; Nicolson |year=2007 |isbn=978-0-2978-5068-7}} * {{Cite journal |last=Moore |first=Rebekah |year=2012 |title='A Crime Against Humanity Arguably Without Parallel in European History': Genocide and the &quot;Politics&quot; of Victimhood in Western Narratives of the Ukrainian Holodomor |journal=Australian Journal of Politics &amp; History |volume=58 |pages=367–379 |doi=10.1111/j.1467-8497.2012.01641.x |number=3}} * {{Cite book |last=Nekrich |first=Alexander |title=Pariahs, Partners, Predators: German-Soviet Relations, 1922–1941 |publisher=Columbia University Press |year=1997 |isbn=0-2311-0676-9}} * {{Cite book |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=NoIajCLpLigC&amp;q=order+of+precedence++1953+++Mikoyan++Vorosilov++Kaganovich&amp;pg=PA20 |title=Flawed Succession: Russia's Power Transfer Crises |publisher=Lexington Books |year=2006 |isbn=978-0-7391-1403-2 |editor-last=Ra'anan |editor-first=Uri |access-date=18 October 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210101024034/https://books.google.com/books?id=NoIajCLpLigC&amp;q=order+of+precedence++1953+++Mikoyan++Vorosilov++Kaganovich&amp;pg=PA20 |archive-date=1 January 2021 |url-status=live}} * {{Cite book |last=Overy |first=Richard J. |url=https://archive.org/details/dictators00rich |title=The Dictators: Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia |publisher=Allen Lane |year=2004 |isbn=978-0-3930-2030-4}} * {{Cite book |last=Pinkus |first=Benjamin |title=The Soviet Government and the Jews 1948–1967: A Documented Study |publisher=Cambridge University Press |year=1984 |isbn=978-0-5212-4713-9}} * {{Cite book |last=Rappaport |first=Helen |title=Joseph Stalin: A Biographical Companion |publisher=ABC-Clio |year=1999 |isbn=978-1-5760-7084-0}} * {{Cite encyclopedia |year=2005 |title=Stalin: A New History |publisher=Cambridge University Press |last=Rieber |first=Alfred J. |editor-last=Davies |editor-first=Sarah |pages=18–44 |isbn=978-1-1394-4663-1 |editor2=James Harris |contribution=Stalin as Georgian: The Formative Years}} * {{Cite book |last=Rees |first=E. A. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=DeWPAQAAQBAJ&amp;dq=Stalin+psychopath&amp;pg=PA219 |title=Iron Lazar: A Political Biography of Lazar Kaganovich |date=15 October 2013 |publisher=Anthem Press |isbn=978-1-7830-8057-1 |page=219 |access-date=23 June 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230630051151/https://books.google.com/books?id=DeWPAQAAQBAJ&amp;dq=Stalin+psychopath&amp;pg=PA219 |archive-date=30 June 2023 |url-status=live}} * {{Cite journal |last=Roberts |first=Geoffrey |year=1992 |title=The Soviet Decision for a Pact with Nazi Germany |journal=Soviet Studies |volume=55 |issue=2 |pages=57–78 |doi=10.1080/09668139208411994 |jstor=152247}} * {{Cite journal |last=Roberts |first=Geoffrey |year=2002 |title=Stalin, the Pact with Nazi Germany, and the Origins of Postwar Soviet Diplomatic Historiography |journal=Journal of Cold War Studies |volume=4 |issue=4 |pages=93–103 |doi=10.1162/15203970260209527 |s2cid=57563511}} * {{Cite book |last=Roberts |first=Geoffrey |title=Stalin's Wars: From World War to Cold War, 1939–1953 |publisher=Yale University Press |year=2006 |isbn=978-0-3001-5040-7}} * {{Cite book |last=Roberts |first=Geoffrey |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=yjNZEAAAQBAJ |title=Stalin's Library: A Dictator and His Books |publisher=Yale University Press |year=2022 |isbn=978-0-3001-7904-0 |access-date=18 May 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240203233625/https://books.google.com/books?id=yjNZEAAAQBAJ |archive-date=3 February 2024 |url-status=live}} * {{Cite journal |last=Rosefielde |first=Steven |date=September 1996 |title=Stalinism in Post-Communist Perspective: New Evidence on Killings, Forced Labour and Economic Growth in the 1930s |journal=Europe-Asia Studies |volume=48 |issue=6 |pages=959–987 |doi=10.1080/09668139608412393}} * {{Cite book |last=Sandle |first=Mark |title=A Short History of Soviet Socialism |publisher=UCL Press |year=1999 |isbn=978-1-8572-8355-6 |doi=10.4324/9780203500279}} * {{Cite book |last=Semeraro |first=David A. S. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=bAXMDwAAQBAJ |title=Joseph Stalin |publisher=Pen &amp; Sword Books |year=2017 |isbn=978-1-5267-0205-0 |access-date=17 March 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230407223021/https://books.google.com/books?id=bAXMDwAAQBAJ |archive-date=7 April 2023 |url-status=live}} * {{Cite book |last=Service |first=Robert |title=Lenin: A Biography |publisher=Macmillan |year=2000 |isbn=978-0-3337-2625-9}} * {{Cite book |last=Service |first=Robert |title=Stalin: A Biography |publisher=Macmillan |year=2004 |isbn=978-0-3337-2627-3}} * {{Cite book |last=Snyder |first=Timothy |title=Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin |publisher=Vintage Books |year=2010 |isbn=978-1-4070-7550-1}} * {{Cite book |last=Suny |first=Ronald |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=I4XzDwAAQBAJ |title=Red Flag Wounded |date=2020b |publisher=Verso Books |isbn=978-1-7887-3074-7 |page=59 |access-date=13 August 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230813085731/https://books.google.com/books?id=I4XzDwAAQBAJ |archive-date=13 August 2023 |url-status=live}} * {{Cite book |last=Suny |first=R. G. |title=Stalin: Passage to Revolution |publisher=Princeton University Press. |year=2020}} [https://www.amazon.com/Stalin-Revolution-Ronald-Grigor-Suny/dp/0691182035/ excerpt] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201119152008/https://www.amazon.com/Stalin-Revolution-Ronald-Grigor-Suny/dp/0691182035 |date=19 November 2020 }} * {{Cite book |last=Volkogonov |first=Dimitri |title=Stalin: Triumph and Tragedy |publisher=Weidenfeld and Nicolson |year=1991 |isbn=978-0-2978-1080-3 |translator-last=Shukman |translator-first=Harold}} * {{Cite book |last=Wettig |first=Gerhard |title=Stalin and the Cold War in Europe |publisher=Rowman &amp; Littlefield |year=2008 |isbn=978-0-7425-5542-6}} * {{Cite journal |last=Wheatcroft |first=Stephen |year=1996 |title=The Scale and Nature of German and Soviet Repression and Mass Killings, 1930–45 |url=http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-German_Soviet.pdf |url-status=live |journal=Europe-Asia Studies |volume=48 |issue=8 |pages=1319–1353 |doi=10.1080/09668139608412415 |jstor=152781 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110717103830/http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-German_Soviet.pdf |archive-date=17 July 2011 |access-date=12 June 2006}} * {{Cite journal |last=Wheatcroft |first=Stephen |date=1999 |title=The Great Leap Upwards: Anthropometric Data and Indicators of Crises and Secular Change in Soviet Welfare Levels, 1880–1960 |journal=[[Slavic Review]] |volume=58 |issue=1 |pages=27–60 |doi=10.2307/2672986 |jstor=2672986 |pmid=22368819 |s2cid=43228133}} {{Refend}} ==== Magazines, newspapers and websites ==== {{Refbegin|30em|indent=yes}} * {{Citation|last=Allilueva|first=Svetlana|author-link=Svetlana Allilueva|translator-last=Johnson|translator-first=Priscilla|title=Twenty Letters to a Friend|year=1967|publisher=Hutchinson|location=London|isbn=0-060-10099-0}} * {{Cite news |title=Joseph Stalin: An Address Given by the Rev. Stanley Evans, M.A., at a Memorial Service for Joseph Stalin at the Church of St. George, Queen Square, London, on March 13th, 1953 |ref={{Harvid|Evans|1953}}}}&lt;br/&gt;{{*}} {{Cite web |year=1953 |title=[online] |url=http://anglicanhistory.org/england/sgevans/stalin1953.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220811115527/http://anglicanhistory.org/england/sgevans/stalin1953.html |archive-date=11 August 2022 |access-date=7 June 2022 |publisher=Society of Socialist Clergy and Ministers |via=anglicanhistory.org, transcribed by Richard Mammana 2019}}&lt;br/&gt;{{*}} {{Cite web |title=[online] |url=https://librarysearch.lse.ac.uk/discovery/fulldisplay?docid=alma9934039710302021&amp;context=L&amp;vid=44LSE_INST:44LSE_VU1 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221121071928/https://librarysearch.lse.ac.uk/discovery/fulldisplay?docid=alma9934039710302021&amp;context=L&amp;vid=44LSE_INST:44LSE_VU1 |archive-date=21 November 2022 |access-date=21 November 2022}} * {{Cite web |last1=Bakradze |first1=Lasha |last2=Gudjov |first2=Lev |last3=Lipman |first3=Maria |last4=Wall |first4=Thomas |date=1 March 2013 |title=The Stalin Puzzle: Deciphering Post-Soviet Public Opinion |url=http://carnegieeurope.eu/2013/03/01/stalin-puzzle-deciphering-post-soviet-public-opinion-pub-51075 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170402134541/http://carnegieeurope.eu/2013/03/01/stalin-puzzle-deciphering-post-soviet-public-opinion-pub-51075 |archive-date=2 April 2017 |access-date=2 April 2017 |publisher=Carnegie Endowment for International Peace}} * {{Cite news |last=Bell |first=Bethany |date=5 March 2013 |title=Georgia Divided Over Stalin 'Local Hero' Status in Gori |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-21656615 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180719183921/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-21656615 |archive-date=19 July 2018 |access-date=21 June 2018 |ref={{Harvid|Bell, 5 March 2013}} |agency=BBC}} * {{Cite web |last=Coynash |first=Halya |date=22 June 2021 |title=Russians name Stalin as the most 'outstanding' figure of all times |url=https://khpg.org//en/1608809237 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210621214422/https://khpg.org//en/1608809237 |archive-date=21 June 2021 |publisher=[[Kharkiv Human Rights Protection Group]] |ref={{Harvid|Coynash, 22 June 2021}}}} * {{Cite web |last=Lentine |first=Gina |date=15 January 2022 |title=Moscow's Memory Wars: Putin seeks to whitewash Russia's Stalinist past |url=https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/memory-wars-putin-seeks-to-whitewash-russias-stalinist-past/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220625055122/https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/memory-wars-putin-seeks-to-whitewash-russias-stalinist-past/ |archive-date=25 June 2022 |access-date=25 June 2022 |website=Atlantic Council |ref={{Harvid|Lentine, 25 June 2022}}}} * {{Cite news |last=Luhn |first=Alec |date=16 April 2019 |title=Record 70 Percent of Russians Say Stalin Played a Positive Role in Their Country's History |url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/16/record-70-per-cent-russians-approve-stalin/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201130234249/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/16/record-70-per-cent-russians-approve-stalin/ |archive-date=30 November 2020 |access-date=23 November 2020 |work=The Daily Telegraph |ref={{Harvid|Luhn, 16 April 2019}}}} * {{Cite web |last=Masci |first=David |date=29 June 2017 |title=In Russia, Nostalgia for USSR and Positive Feelings about Stalin |url=https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/06/29/in-russia-nostalgia-for-soviet-union-and-positive-feelings-about-stalin/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201129164332/https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/06/29/in-russia-nostalgia-for-soviet-union-and-positive-feelings-about-stalin/ |archive-date=29 November 2020 |access-date=23 November 2020 |publisher=Pew Research Center |ref={{Harvid|Masci, 29 June 2017}}}} * {{Cite news |last=Montefiore |first=Simon Sebag |date=6 September 2007 |title=Stalin, his father and the Rabbit |url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2007/09/stalin-father-egnatashvili |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220808094223/https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2007/09/stalin-father-egnatashvili |archive-date=8 August 2022 |access-date=8 August 2022 |work=The New Statesman |ref={{Harvid|Montefiore, 6 September 2007}}}} * {{Cite web |last=Nemtsova |first=Anna |date=17 May 2021 |title='The best master': Russia's new Stalin Center evokes pride, revulsion |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-s-new-stalin-center-evokes-pride-revulsion-n1267521 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220625055122/https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-s-new-stalin-center-evokes-pride-revulsion-n1267521 |archive-date=25 June 2022 |access-date=25 June 2022 |website=NBC News |ref={{Harvid|Nemtsova, 17 May 2021}}}} * {{Cite news |date=2 March 2013 |title=Poll Finds Stalin's Popularity High |url=https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/poll-finds-stalins-popularity-high-21998 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170320024227/https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/poll-finds-stalins-popularity-high-21998 |archive-date=20 March 2017 |access-date=20 March 2017 |work=The Moscow Times |ref={{Harvid|''The Moscow Times'', 2 March 2013}}}} * {{Cite news |last=Rutland |first=Peter |date=13 June 2019 |title=Perspective – Putin's dangerous campaign to rehabilitate Stalin |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/06/13/putins-dangerous-campaign-rehabilitate-stalin/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211004175242/https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/06/13/putins-dangerous-campaign-rehabilitate-stalin/ |archive-date=4 October 2021 |access-date=25 June 2022 |newspaper=Washington Post |ref={{Harvid|Rutland, 13 June 2019}}}} * {{Cite magazine |last=Snyder |first=Timothy D. |date=26 May 2010 |title=Springtime for Stalin |url=http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/may/26/springtime-for-stalin/ |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121024091842/http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/may/26/springtime-for-stalin/ |archive-date=24 October 2012 |access-date=4 January 2021 |magazine=The New York Review of Books |ref={{Harvid|Snyder, 26 May 2010}}}} * {{Cite magazine |last=Snyder |first=Timothy D. |date=27 January 2011 |title=Hitler vs. Stalin: Who Was Worse? |url=http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2011/01/27/hitler-vs-stalin-who-was-worse/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20171012090945/http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2011/01/27/hitler-vs-stalin-who-was-worse/ |archive-date=12 October 2017 |access-date=15 December 2016 |magazine=The New York Review of Books |ref={{Harvid|Snyder, 27 January 2011}}}} * {{Cite news |last=Taylor |first=Adam |date=15 February 2017 |title=Positive Views of Stalin among Russian Reach 16-year High, Poll Shows |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/15/positive-views-of-stalin-among-russians-reach-16-year-high-poll-shows/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170320040114/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/15/positive-views-of-stalin-among-russians-reach-16-year-high-poll-shows/ |archive-date=20 March 2017 |access-date=30 April 2017 |newspaper=The Washington Post |ref={{Harvid|Taylor, 15 February 2017}}}} * {{Cite news |date=5 June 2018 |title=Wall of Grief: Putin Opens First Soviet Victims Memorial |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41809659 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180605175715/http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41809659 |archive-date=5 June 2018 |access-date=30 October 2017 |ref={{Harvid|BBC, 5 June 2018}} |agency=BBC}} * {{Cite news |date=18 April 2019 |title=Why So Many Russian like Dictator Stalin |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47975704 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190719074954/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47975704 |archive-date=19 July 2019 |access-date=11 June 2019 |ref={{Harvid|BBC, 18 April 2019}} |agency=BBC News}} * {{Cite web |last=Yegorov |first=Oleg |date=15 December 2017 |title=Why did the USSR help to create Israel, but then became its foe |url=https://www.rbth.com/history/327040-ussr-and-israel-from-friends-to-foes |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220204093524/https://www.rbth.com/history/327040-ussr-and-israel-from-friends-to-foes |archive-date=4 February 2022 |access-date=5 February 2022 |website=Russia Beyond |ref={{Harvid|Yegorov, 15 December 2017}}}} * {{Cite news |date=4 March 2015 |title=Do Stalina pozytyvno stavlyatʹsya menshe 1/5 ukrayintsiv |script-title=uk:До Сталіна позитивно ставляться менше 1/5 українців |trans-title=Less Than 1/5 of Ukrainians Have a Positive Attitude Towards Stalin |url=http://pda.pravda.com.ua/news/id_7101130/ |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160305024332/http://pda.pravda.com.ua/news/id_7101130/ |archive-date=5 March 2016 |access-date=5 March 2016 |work=Ukrayinska Pravda |language=uk |ref={{Harvid|''Ukrayinska Pravda'', 4 March 2015}}}} * {{Cite journal |date=13 March 1943 |title=О присвоении Верховному Главнокомандующему вооруженными силами СССР Сталину И. В. военного звания Маршала Советского Союза |trans-title=On the assignment of the military rank of Marshal of the Soviet Union to the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces of the USSR Stalin I.V. |url=http://sun.tsu.ru/mminfo/2020/000462771/1943/1943_011.pdf |url-status=live |language=ru |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211120145303/http://sun.tsu.ru/mminfo/2020/000462771/1943/1943_011.pdf |archive-date=20 November 2021 |access-date=21 November 2021 |ref={{Harvid|''Journal of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR'', 13 March 1943}} |script-journal=ru:Ведомости Верховного Совета СССР |trans-journal=Journal of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR}} {{Refend}} ==External links== {{Sister project links | wikt = Stalin | commons = Иосиф Виссарионович Сталин | b = no | n = no | q = Joseph Stalin | s = Author:Joseph Stalin | v = no | species = no | d = y }} * [http://www.marx2mao.com/Stalin/Index.html Stalin Library (with all 13 volumes of Stalin's ''works'' and &quot;volume 14&quot;)] * [https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/intro.html Library of Congress: Revelations from the Russian Archives] * [http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/ Electronic archive of Stalin's letters and presentations] * [http://www.stalindigitalarchive.com Stalin digital archive] * [https://www.net-film.ru/en/found-page-1/?search=1900-1980qstalin Joseph Stalin Newsreels // Net-Film Newsreels and Documentary Films Archive] * [http://www.spartacus-educational.com/RUSstalin.htm Stalin Biography from Spartacus Educational] * [http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Total%20Biblio/Stalin%20Bibliography.htm A List of Key Documentary Material on Stalin] * ''[http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?c=stalinka Stalinka: The Digital Library of Staliniana]'' * {{PM20|FID=pe/016952}} {{S-start}} {{S-off}} {{S-bef|before=[[Vyacheslav Molotov]]}} {{S-ttl|title=[[Premier of the Soviet Union|Chairman]] of the [[Council of Ministers (Soviet Union)]]&lt;br /&gt;{{small|Council of People's Commissars until 1946}}|years=1941–1953}} {{S-aft|after=[[Georgy Malenkov]]}} {{S-break}} {{S-bef|before=[[Semyon Timoshenko]]}} {{S-ttl|title=[[Minister of Defence of the Soviet Union]]&lt;br /&gt;{{small|People's Commissar until 1946}}|years=1941–1947}} {{S-aft|after=[[Nikolai Bulganin]]}} {{S-break}} {{S-ppo}} {{S-break}} {{S-bef|before=[[Vyacheslav Molotov]]&lt;br /&gt;{{small|''as'' [[Responsible Secretary]]}}}} {{S-ttl|title=[[General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union]]|years=1922–1952}} {{S-aft|after=[[Nikita Khrushchev]]&lt;br /&gt;{{small|''as'' [[First Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union|First Secretary]]}}}} {{S-break}} {{S-end}} {{Joseph Stalin}} {{Navboxes | title = Articles and topics related to Joseph Stalin | state = collapsed | list1 = {{Communist Party of the Soviet Union}} {{Soviet Defence Ministers}} {{Premiers of the Soviet Union}} {{Marshals of the Soviet Union}} 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[[Category:Members of the Orgburo of the 17th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Orgburo of the 18th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Secretariat of the 11th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Secretariat of the 12th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Secretariat of the 13th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Secretariat of the 14th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Secretariat of the 15th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Secretariat of the 16th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Secretariat of the 17th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Secretariat of the 18th 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[[Category:Members of the Politburo of the 15th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Politburo of the 16th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Politburo of the 17th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Politburo of the 18th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Presidium of the 19th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 6th Conference of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 7th Conference of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 6th Congress of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 7th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 8th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 9th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 10th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 11th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 12th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 13th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 14th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 15th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 16th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 17th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 18th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)]] [[Category:Members of the Central Committee of the 19th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union]] [[Category:Ministers of defence of the Soviet Union]] [[Category:Politicians from Georgia (country)]] [[Category:Politicide perpetrators]] [[Category:Perpetrators of the Red Terror (Russia)]] [[Category:Recipients of the Czechoslovak War Cross]] [[Category:Recipients of the Order of Lenin]] [[Category:Recipients of the Order of Suvorov, 1st class]] [[Category:Recipients of the Order of the Red Banner]] [[Category:Recipients of the Order of Victory]] [[Category:Revolutionaries from Georgia (country)]] [[Category:Russian atheism activists]] [[Category:Russian communist poets]] [[Category:Russian communist writers]] [[Category:Russian communists]] [[Category:Russian exiles]] [[Category:Russian political writers]] [[Category:Russian revolutionaries]] [[Category:Russian Social Democratic Labour Party members]] [[Category:Russification]] [[Category:Signatories of the Treaty on the Creation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics]] [[Category:Soviet Georgian generals]] [[Category:Soviet people of World War II]] [[Category:Time Person of the Year]] [[Category:Unsolved deaths in Russia]] [[Category:World War II political leaders]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pine_Grove_Historical_Museum&diff=1259229960</id> <title>Pine Grove Historical Museum</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pine_Grove_Historical_Museum&diff=1259229960"/> <updated>2024-11-24T02:05:09Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: trim <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Museum}} {{Infobox Museum |name = Pine Grove Historical Museum |image = |caption = |map_type = |map_caption = |coordinates = {{coord|42.647830|-83.304820|display=inline}} |established = |location = 405 Cesar Chavez Avenue&lt;br&gt;[[Pontiac, Michigan]], US |type = Historic house |visitors = |owner = Oakland County Pioneer and Historical Society |website = {{URL|http://www.ocphs.org/drupal-6.1/node/6}} }} The '''Pine Grove Historical Museum''' is located in [[Pontiac, Michigan]] and operated by the Oakland County Pioneer and Historical Society. The museum features the home of former [[Michigan]] [[Governor]] [[Moses Wisner]]. The four acre-plus property also includes several outbuildings, including a summer kitchen, a [[smokehouse]] and a [[root cellar]]. The property includes a late 19th-century period one-room schoolhouse, and a former [[carriage house]] that is home to the Pioneer Museum and the Research Library.&lt;ref name=&quot;ocphs&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.ocphs.org/drupal-6.1/node/6|title=The Pine Grove Historical Museum &amp;#124; Oakland County Pioneer and Historical Society|publisher=ocphs.org|accessdate=2016-03-16|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160310061830/http://www.ocphs.org/drupal-6.1/node/6|archive-date=2016-03-10|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Moses Wisner== The [[Moses Wisner House]] is listed on the National Register of Historic Places. In 1845, Moses Wisner moved to [[Oakland County, Michigan]] from [[New York (state)|New York]] with his family, They settled on a piece of land along the old [[Saginaw Trail]]. Although Wisner was a lawyer, he had a passion for farming, so he bought enough land for chickens and cattle, and for fruit trees and growing vegetables. In 1858, Wisner was elected governor of Michigan. Since there was no governor's mansion in [[Lansing, Michigan|Lansing]], Wisner remodeled his [[Greek Revival architecture|Greek Revival-Style]] home to accommodate his responsibilities as governor.&lt;ref name=&quot;michigan&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.michigan.org/property/governor-wisner-historical-house-pine-grove-museum/|title=Site Maintenance|publisher=michigan.org|accessdate=2016-03-16}}&lt;/ref&gt; Rather than running for re-election for governor, Wisner organized a volunteer infantry regiment to fight in the [[U.S. Civil War]], and in 1862 the [[22nd Michigan Volunteer Infantry Regiment|22nd Michigan Infantry]] left for [[Kentucky]] with Colonel Wisner in command. Before leaving, Wisner transferred ownership of the Pine Grove property to his wife, Angeolina. ==Pine Grove== The grounds of Wisner's mansion included a large grove of pine trees, so Wisner named the property &quot;Pine Grove.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;eventseeker&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://eventseeker.com/venue/687618-the-governor-moses-wisner-house-pontiac|title=The Governor Moses Wisner House &amp;#124; Pontiac &amp;#124; Tourist Attractions &amp; Sightseeing &amp;#124; eventseeker|publisher=eventseeker.com|accessdate=2016-03-16}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Pioneer Museum== Located in the carriage house is the Pioneer Museum, which features a collection hand-made tools and farm implements from the late 1800s. ==Drayton Plains School== In 1865, the Drayton Plains one-room schoolhouse was built at Monroe Road and Sashabaw Road in [[Drayton Plains, Michigan]]. The schoolhouse closed in 1920. In 1965, the schoolhouse was donated to the Pioneer Museum by Leonard Coates, and moved to Pine Grove. It was restored to its late 1800s-era condition and now reflects the school in its original state, including school benches, a wood-burning stove and textbooks from 1860 to 1890.&lt;ref name=&quot;ocphs4&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.ocphs.org/drupal-6.1/node/6?q=node/23|title=Drayton Plains One Room School &amp;#124; Oakland County Pioneer and Historical Society|publisher=ocphs.org|accessdate=2016-03-16}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Research library== The research library is located in the carriage house and contains many historical resources, including books, city directories, cemetery records, newspapers, and other local historical reference materials.&lt;ref name=&quot;ocphs5&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.ocphs.org/drupal-6.1/node/6?q=node/2|title=Research Library &amp;#124; Oakland County Pioneer and Historical Society|publisher=ocphs.org|accessdate=2016-03-16}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==References== {{Reflist}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Pine Grove Historical Museum}} [[Category:Buildings and structures in Pontiac, Michigan]] [[Category:Museums in Oakland County, Michigan]] [[Category:Houses in Oakland County, Michigan]] [[Category:Historic house museums in Michigan]] [[Category:Governor of Michigan]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=B._Ed_Johnson&diff=1259229898</id> <title>B. Ed Johnson</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=B._Ed_Johnson&diff=1259229898"/> <updated>2024-11-24T02:04:43Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{short description|American politician}} {{Infobox officeholder |honorific-prefix = |name =B. Ed Johnson |honorific-suffix = |image =B Ed Johnson 1951.png |caption= |alt = |office=[[List of mayors of Columbus, Georgia|Mayor of Columbus, Georgia]] |term=1960–1961&lt;br&gt;1965–1968 |term_end = |predecessor = Benjamin Franklin Register&lt;br&gt;Harold E. Hughes |successor = Steve Knight&lt;br&gt;J. R. Allen |state_senate2=Georgia |district2 = 24th |term_start2=November 28, 1945 |term_end2=? |predecessor2= H. Dixon Smith |successor2= |birth_name = |birth_date = {{birth date|1914|10|28}} |birth_place = [[Columbus, Georgia]], US |death_date = {{Death date and age|1983|6|8|1914|10|28}} |death_place = [[Muscogee County, Georgia]], US |party = [[Democratic Party (United States)|Democrat]] |otherparty = &lt;!--For additional political affiliations--&gt; |spouse =Martha Louise Noble&lt;br&gt;Harriette V. Murray |partner = &lt;!--For those with a domestic partner and not married--&gt; |relations = |children = |residence = |alma_mater = |occupation =legislator, businessman |nickname = }} '''Benjamin Edward Johnson''' (October 28, 1914 – June 8, 1983) was an American businessman, broadcaster and politician from the U.S. state of [[Georgia (U.S. state)|Georgia]]. He resided in [[Columbus, Georgia|Columbus]] in [[Muscogee County, Georgia|Muscogee County]], where he was the first elected mayor of that city, from 1965-1968. ==Early years and education== Johnson was born in 1914 to Edward Burton and Pamelia Weldon Johnson. His father was also a prominent citizen of the city, serving as the city's Superintendent of Public Works in the 1930s.&lt;ref name=&quot;biosketch&quot;&gt;{{cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ZYt7GQAACAAJ&amp;q=Columbus+onthe+Chattahoochee |title=Columbus on the Chattahoochee - Etta Blanchard Worsley - Google Books |via=[[Google Books]]|access-date=2012-08-13|last1=Worsley |first1=Etta Blanchard |year=1951 }}&lt;/ref&gt; B. Ed attended public schools in Columbus and married Martha Louise Noble in 1939.&lt;ref name=&quot;biosketch&quot; /&gt; ==Political career== In 1945, Johnson was elected to the [[Georgia State Senate]]'s 24th district, to fill the unexpired term of the deceased [[H. Dixon Smith]].&lt;ref&gt;''Georgia Official and Statistical Register'', p. 92 (1945)&lt;/ref&gt; At that time, he was the youngest state senator to ever hold that office from that district.&lt;ref name=&quot;biosketch&quot; /&gt; He was named mayor pro tempore&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |title= Looking Back|url=http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=CL&amp;s_site=ledgerenquirer&amp;p_multi=CL&amp;p_theme=realcities&amp;p_action=search&amp;p_maxdocs=200&amp;p_topdoc=1&amp;p_text_direct-0=116DBE7346FC0278&amp;p_field_direct-0=document_id&amp;p_perpage=10&amp;p_sort=YMD_date:D&amp;s_trackval=GooglePM |newspaper=The Columbus Ledger-Enquirer |date= January 7, 2007|access-date=August 14, 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; of Columbus in 1960, serving for one year. Previously, he had served as secretary and city commissioner of Columbus. He was then returned to the mayor's office in 1965, but this time by registered voters in the city of Columbus, becoming the first elected mayor of the city.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.columbusga.org/mayor/mayors.pdf |title=Mayors of Columbus, Georgia |author=City of Columbus, Georgia |access-date=August 15, 2012 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120829133653/http://www.columbusga.org/mayor/mayors.pdf |archive-date=August 29, 2012 }}&lt;/ref&gt; At some time during his tenure, the [[Miss Georgia USA]] beauty pageant, which he helped lay the foundation for,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.missga.org/about_us/program_history.aspx |title=Miss Georgia Scholarship Pageant &amp;#124; Pageant History |publisher=Missga.org |access-date=2012-08-13 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181120055406/http://www.missga.org/about_us/program_history.aspx |archive-date=2018-11-20 |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt; came to Columbus.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://files.usgwarchives.net/ga/muscogee/photos/allenawa13076gph.txt |title=Allen Award Honors Civic Service |author=Columbus Ledger-Enquirer |access-date=August 15, 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; He was succeeded as mayor by J. R. Allen in 1969. ==Business background and civic involvement== Johnson worked at the exchange in [[Fort Benning, Georgia]], along with oil and lumber companies, in 1951 as sales manager of the Columbus Broadcasting Company and around 1959 a manager of Westad, a distributor of electronics.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.e-yearbook.com/yearbooks/Jordan_Vocational_High_School_Red_Jacket_Yearbook/1959/Page_231.html |title=Jordan Vocational High School - Red Jacket Yearbook (Columbus, GA), Class of 1959, Page 231 |publisher=E-yearbook.com |access-date=2012-08-13}}&lt;/ref&gt; He was voted as Columbus' outstanding citizen of the year in 1946.&lt;ref name=&quot;biosketch&quot; /&gt; Johnson was a member of community organizations, participating in the Better Business Bureau, Chamber of Commerce, Lion's Club, Roofers' Manufacturing Association, and Columbus Country Club, among many. A 1951 biography lauded his &quot;ready smile and infectious friendliness&quot; and described him as having &quot;one of the largest contingents of friends ... in the community&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;biosketch&quot; /&gt; He died in 1983 at the age of 68. At the time of his death, he was married to Harriette V. Murray. ==See also== {{portal|Biography|Georgia (U.S. state)}} ==References== {{reflist}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Johnson, B. Ed}} [[Category:1914 births]] [[Category:1983 deaths]] [[Category:20th-century mayors of places in Georgia (U.S. state)]] [[Category:Mayors of Columbus, Georgia]] [[Category:Democratic Party Georgia (U.S. state) state senators]] [[Category:20th-century American legislators]] [[Category:20th-century Georgia (U.S. state) politicians]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Church_of_Saint_Barnabas,_Swanmore&diff=1259229848</id> <title>Church of Saint Barnabas, Swanmore</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Church_of_Saint_Barnabas,_Swanmore&diff=1259229848"/> <updated>2024-11-24T02:04:19Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{Use dmy dates|date=April 2022}} [[File:St Barnabas, Swanmore - geograph.org.uk - 1504266.jpg|thumb|The Church of St Barnabas]] The '''Church of St Barnabas''' is the [[Church of England]] parish church of [[Swanmore]] near [[Southampton]] in [[Hampshire]], England.&lt;ref name=dop&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.portsmouth.anglican.org/acny/church/137/ |title=St Barnabas |publisher=Diocese of Portsmouth |accessdate=2020-03-03}}&lt;/ref&gt; It was constructed in 1844 and is a grade II listed building.&lt;ref name=bl&gt;{{cite web|url=https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1350574 |title=CHURCH OF ST BARNABAS, Swanmore |publisher=Historic England |date= |accessdate=2020-03-02}}&lt;/ref&gt; The church is under the ecclesiastic jurisdiction of the [[Anglican Diocese of Portsmouth|Diocese of Portsmouth]] and the [[Deanery]] of Bishop's Waltham.&lt;ref name=dop /&gt;&lt;ref name=p&gt;{{cite web|url=https://cofeportsmouth.contentfiles.net/media/assets/file/SWANMORE_PARISH_PROFILE.pdf |publisher=Diocese of Portsmouth |title=St Barnabas Church, Swanmore |date= |accessdate=2020-03-02}}&lt;/ref&gt; == History == The church was constructed in 1844 and was designed by [[Benjamin Ferrey]] in the [[Neo-Norman architecture|Neo-Norman architectural]] style.&lt;ref name=bl /&gt; The church was originally established under the ecclesiastic oversight of the [[Diocese of Winchester]].&lt;ref name=gaz&gt;{{cite news |url=https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/33269/page/2672 |title=Issue:33269 Page:2672 |newspaper=The London Gazette |date=1927-04-26 |accessdate=2020-02-03}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1846, the Church of England's [[Church Commissioners]] petitioned the [[Supreme Governor of the Church of England]] [[Queen Victoria]] to merge the nearby parishes of Droxford and Bishops Waltham into St Barnabas's in Swanmore as they had agreed with the [[Bishop of Winchester]], which the Queen granted.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |title=The London Gazette, Part 2 |publisher=T. Neuman |year=1846 |pages=1437–48 }}&lt;/ref&gt; The vestry and chancel were extended in 1863 with a tower and new windows being installed in 1876.&lt;ref name=bl /&gt; In 1927, St Barnabas' was transferred from the Diocese of Winchester to the Diocese of Portsmouth following the creation of the new independent Diocese of Portsmouth.&lt;ref name=gaz /&gt; The church was renovated in 2011 with a new boiler being installed as well as the tower's roof being re-tiled.&lt;ref name=p /&gt; The church has a graveyard attached to it, however it is full and no longer open to future burials though it does retain an area for interment of cremated ashes.&lt;ref name=p /&gt; It is also used for concerts.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.hago.org.uk/venue/st-barnabas-swanmore/ |title=St Barnabas Church Swanmore near Wickham |publisher=Hago.org.uk |date= |accessdate=2020-03-02}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==References== {{reflist}} ==External links== {{commons category-inline|St Barnabas, Swanmore}} * [http://www.stbarnabas.org.uk/ Official website] {{coord |50|56|39|N|1|10|52|W|type:landmark_region:GB-HAM|display=title}} [[Category:Church of England church buildings in Hampshire|Swanmore]] [[Category:Grade II listed churches in Hampshire|Swanmore, Church of Saint Barnabas]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frantz_Johannes_Hansen&diff=1259229780</id> <title>Frantz Johannes Hansen</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frantz_Johannes_Hansen&diff=1259229780"/> <updated>2024-11-24T02:03:48Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Danish author (1810–1852)}} {{Expand Danish|date=August 2012|topic=bio}} '''Frantz Johannes Hansen''' (4 September 1810 in Copenhagen &amp;ndash; 14 March 1852) was a [[Denmark|Danish]] author and was also an amateur musician. He is buried at [[Assistens Cemetery (Copenhagen)|Assistens Cemetery]] in [[Copenhagen]]. ==Life== Frantz Johannes Hansen showed poetic talents at an early age. He studied with [[Hans Christian Andersen]], and also took classes from [[Christoph Ernst Friedrich Weyse]] in 1828. While studying in college, Hansen published some poems in 1832 and his book ''Læsning for den fine Verden'' (Reading for the Fine World). From this book he received the nickname &quot;Fine Hansen.&quot; In 1834, Hansen received a law degree, which later earned him a modest living, first working in the Archives Office. In 1848, he worked with the Ministry of Justice. Hansen, who enjoyed the outdoors, felt trapped inside his workplace. However, in his leisure time he continued to pursue his literary ambitions: in 1839 he issued a volume of Romantic poems, which contained one of his best-known pieces, &quot;Korsaren og hans Brud&quot; (The Corsair and his Bride). Under the pseudonym Torkel Trane, he published the novel ''Let Sind og Letsind'' (Light Mind and frivolity). Hansen attempted dramatic writing, some of which appeared at the [[Royal Danish Theatre]], but did not have a successful debut. A comedy, ''En liden Hemmelighed'' (A Little Secret), was performed several times in 1894, and was probably his most successful dramatic work. After Hansen's death, his collection ''Lyriske Digte'' (Lyrical Poems, 1852) was published with a preface that gives a brief biography of the writer. Notable works include ''6 Galopper til Studenterforeningen'' (1836). ==See also== *[[List of Danish composers]] ==External links== * [http://www.gravsted.dk/person.php?navn=frantzjohanneshansen Frantz Johannes Hansen] at Gravsted.dk (Danish) {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Hansen, Frantz Johannes}} [[Category:1810 births]] [[Category:1852 deaths]] [[Category:Danish male poets]] [[Category:19th-century Danish poets]] [[Category:19th-century Danish male writers]] {{Denmark-writer-stub}}</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_B._Gill&diff=1259229460</id> <title>Joseph B. Gill</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_B._Gill&diff=1259229460"/> <updated>2024-11-24T02:01:33Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{Short description|American politician}} {{no footnotes|date=November 2018}} {{Infobox person/Wikidata|fetchwikidata=ALL|suppressfields=restingplace}} '''Joseph B. Gill''' (17 February 1862 – 22 September 1942) was an American politician. Between 1893 and 1897 he served as Lieutenant Governor of [[Illinois]]. ==Life== Joseph Gill was born on a farm near [[Marion, Illinois]]. He attended local schools and in 1884 he graduated from the ''Southern Illinois Normal School'' in Carbondale. Afterwards he studied law at the [[University of Michigan]] and in 1886 he was permitted to the bar. However he did not work in the judicial arena. Instead he started a career as a journalist in the newspaper business. Until 1893 he conducted and edited the ''Murphysboro Independent''. He joined the [[Democratic Party (United States)|Democratic Party]] and in 1888 he was elected to the [[Illinois House of Representatives]], where he remained until 1892. In that year he was elected to the office of the Lieutenant Governor of Illinois. He served in this position between 10 January 1893 and 11 January 1897 when his term ended. In this function he was the deputy of Governor [[John Peter Altgeld]]. On several occasions he took over the functions of the Governor while Altgeld was absent or sick. In this time he was able to peacefully end a strike of the Mine Workers. In 1896 he did not seek reelection. After the end of his time as Lieutenant Governor he served for a few months as Member of the State board of Arbitration. For health reasons he moved to [[San Bernardino, California]] where he became the chairperson of the Board of Trade. He was also in charge of the Highway Commission of the [[San Bernardino County, California]]. Gill also entered the banking business and became President and/or Director of various local banks. He was also involved in the lumber business. He died on 22 September 1942 in San Bernardino. ==References== &lt;!--- See [[Wikipedia:Footnotes]] on how to create references using &lt;ref&gt;&lt;/ref&gt; tags which will then appear here automatically --&gt; {{Reflist|30em}} ==External links== * [http://politicalgraveyard.com/bio/gilhams-gillen.html#532.46.16 The Political Graveyard] * [http://files.usgwarchives.net/il/jackson/bios/gill1404gbs.txt Jackson-Williamson County IL Archives Biographies] * [http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cagha/biographies2/bios2/gill-joseph-b.htm California Genealogy and History Archives] {{s-start}} {{s-ppo}} {{s-bef|before=Andrew Jackson Bell}} {{s-ttl|title=[[Democratic Party (United States)|Democratic]] nominee for [[Lieutenant Governor of Illinois]]|years=1892}} {{s-aft|after=Monroe Carroll Crawford}} {{s-off}} {{succession box | before= [[Lyman Beecher Ray]] | title= [[Lieutenant Governor of Illinois]] | years= 1893&amp;ndash;1897 | after= [[William Northcott]]}} {{s-end}} {{Lieutenant Governors of Illinois}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Gill, Joseph B.}} [[Category:1862 births]] [[Category:1942 deaths]] [[Category:People from Marion, Illinois]] [[Category:Politicians from San Bernardino, California]] [[Category:Editors of Illinois newspapers]] [[Category:Southern Illinois University Carbondale alumni]] [[Category:Democratic Party members of the Illinois House of Representatives]] [[Category:Lieutenant governors of Illinois]] [[Category:University of Michigan Law School alumni]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sophia_Elizabeth_Cook_Amos_Zimmerman&diff=1259227163</id> <title>Sophia Elizabeth Cook Amos Zimmerman</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sophia_Elizabeth_Cook_Amos_Zimmerman&diff=1259227163"/> <updated>2024-11-24T01:45:31Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: cleanup <hr /> <div>{{multiple issues| {{more citations needed|date=September 2015}} {{notability|biography|date=July 2022}} }} {{Infobox person |image = |name = Sophia Elizabeth Cook Amos Zimmerman |birth_date = {{Birth date|1856|6|23}} |birth_place = [[Syracuse, New York]], United States |death_date = {{Death date and age|1930|11|23|1856|6|23}} |death_place = [[Syracuse, New York]], United States |occupation = Missionary }} '''Sophia Elizabeth Cooks Amos Zimmerman''' (June 23, 1856 – November 23, 1930) was an American missionary. ==Early life== She was born in [[Syracuse, New York]], on June 23, 1856, to real estate magnate Christian Cook and Katherine Hey Cook. She was the eldest of five, with two younger sisters, Emma Margaret Cook and Anna Louise Cook; and two younger brothers, Charles C. Cook and George C. Cook. She married the son of her brother's business partner, Charles L. Amos, with whom she had three sons Jacob Amos (1878 - 1880, Charles Louis Amos (1880 - 1955) and John Jacob Amos (1882 - 1890). She was widowed on June 27, 1887. She married Rev. Jeremiah Zimmerman on January 21, 1890. ==Career== She was the President of the Woman's Missionary Society of the First English Lutheran Church. She was a generous patron of religious and educational institutions, having given large sums to the [[Kugler Hospital|Guntur Mission, India]], the Deaconess Home in Baltimore, Maryland, the Pastor's Fund of the United Lutheran Church and also the Gettysburg Theological Seminary.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite news|title=Mrs. Sophia Zimmerman Gives College $50,000 Trust Fund|date=2 May 1931|newspaper=The Gettysburg Times}}&lt;/ref&gt; She died on November 23, 1930.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; The terms of her will provided for the establishment of a $50,000 trust fund for the Gettysburg College Library, named the Dr. and Mrs. Jeremiah Zimmerman Fund, in 1931.&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|title=$50,000 Trust for Gettysburg College|date=7 May 1931|newspaper=The New Oxford Item}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.gettysburg.edu/library/m/qr/zimmerman.dot|title=Gettysburg College - Portrait of Jeremiah Zimmerman|website=gettysburg.edu|access-date=2016-07-03}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.gettysburg.edu/library/information/donor/bookplates/zimmerman.dot|title=Gettysburg College - Dr. and Mrs. Jeremiah Zimmerman Fund|website=gettysburg.edu|access-date=2016-07-03}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Notes== {{Reflist}} ==References== {{reflist}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Zimmerman, Sophia Elizabeth Cook Amos}} [[Category:1856 births]] [[Category:1930 deaths]] [[Category:Burials at Oakwood Cemetery (Syracuse, New York)]] [[Category:People from Syracuse, New York]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stanley_L._Englebardt&diff=1259226845</id> <title>Stanley L. Englebardt</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stanley_L._Englebardt&diff=1259226845"/> <updated>2024-11-24T01:43:21Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: trim <hr /> <div>{{Use mdy dates|date=July 2021}} {{short description|American editor and writer}} {{Infobox writer |name = Stanley Lawrence Englebardt |image = |imagesize = |caption = |pseudonym = |birth_date = {{birth date|1925|10|1|mf=y}} |birth_place = [[Brooklyn]], New York, US |death_date = {{death date and age|2014|3|31|1925|10|1|mf=y}} |death_place = [[Westport, Connecticut]], US |occupation = Editor, author |genre = Nonfiction |movement = |notableworks = |website = }} '''Stanley Lawrence Englebardt''', (October 1, 1925 – March 31, 2014) was an American journalist, editor and writer.&lt;ref name=&quot;obit&quot;&gt;[https://westportnow.com/stanley_l-_englebardt_88/ Obituary] on ''WestportNow.com'', April 3, 2014.&lt;/ref&gt; He wrote as '''Stanley L. Englebardt'''. ==Life== Stanley Englebardt was born in [[Brooklyn]], New York, the son of Leland Englebardt, a dentist in private practice, and his wife Lillian (Levy) Englebardt.&lt;ref name=&quot;USC30&quot;&gt;1930 United States Federal Census.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;USC40&quot;&gt;1940 United States Federal Census.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;WW2D&quot;&gt;U.S. World War II Draft Card for Stanley Lawrence Englebardt, 1943.&lt;/ref&gt; He was raised in Brooklyn.&lt;ref name=&quot;WW2D&quot;/&gt; After four years&lt;ref name=&quot;WW2E&quot;&gt;U.S. World War II Army Englistment Record for Stanley L Englebardt.&lt;/ref&gt; at [[Erasmus Hall High School]], from which he graduated,&lt;ref name=&quot;obit&quot;/&gt; Englebardt enlisted on November 23, 1943, in the [[United States Army]] as a private, serving in [[World War II]].&lt;ref name=&quot;WW2E&quot;/&gt; He was demobilized May 3, 1946.&lt;ref name=&quot;WW2D&quot;/&gt; Englebardt went on to study at [[New York University]].&lt;ref name=&quot;obit&quot;/&gt; He married Rita Juliet Rotheim on December 13, 1949, in [[Pinellas County, Florida]].&lt;ref name=&quot;FLM&quot;&gt;Florida, U.S., County Marriage Records, 1823–1982.&lt;/ref&gt; They made their home in [[Connecticut]], residing in [[Westport, Connecticut|Westport]] from the late 1950s onwards.&lt;ref name=&quot;obit&quot;/&gt; Englebardt died at the age of eighty-eight on March 31, 2014, following a brief illness. Services were private.&lt;ref name=&quot;obit&quot;/&gt; ==Career== Englebardt worked as a journalist, became a roving editor for ''[[Reader's Digest]]'' and finally an author of book length works of nonfiction. With particular expertise in the fields of medicine and science, he wrote more than 800 magazine articles for ''[[Argosy (magazine)|Argosy]]'', ''[[Family Circle]]'', ''[[Mechanix Illustrated]]'', ''[[The New York Times]]'', ''[[Popular Science]]'', ''Reader's Digest'', ''Women's Journal'', and numerous other periodicals, as well as twelve books and four network television documentaries. He also wrote dozens of speeches and articles for well-known personalities.&lt;ref name=&quot;obit&quot;/&gt; Englebardt also prepared and wrote a study on the hazards of smokeless tobacco that was published in 1990 by Major League Baseball. Speaking at [[Quinnipiac University]] in 2001, Englebardt confessed his career as a freelance writer, a role in which he had never previously envisioned himself, had begun by happenstance. While in college he would tell bedtime stories to a friend's children, which his wife took down and sent to a publisher. &quot;I got lucky,&quot; he observed. &quot;The first twenty things I did and submitted were purchased and published.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;obit&quot;/&gt; Characterizing himself and his profession, he described himself as a loner in a career suited for such. &quot;You have no real contact with humans. It takes discipline and a 'loner' type personality to write all the time.&quot; Otherwise, &quot;All you need is an inquiring mind and the ability to look beyond the obvious.&quot; He felt that familiarity and a personal connection with a subject led to the best work, with good story ideas coming from &quot;[t]hings you hear about, read about, and you see.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;obit&quot;/&gt; In 2010, he was interviewed by [[PBS]] regarding corporate takeovers by private equity firms and their negative impact on worker pensions, drawing on his own experience as a former employee of ''Reader's Digest''.&lt;ref name=&quot;obit&quot;/&gt; ==Partial bibliography== ===Books=== ====The Worlds of Science series==== *''Computers'' (Pyramid Publications, 1962) *''Electronics'' (Pyramid Publications, 1963) *''New Frontiers in Medicine'' (Pyramid Publications, 1965) ====Other books==== *''Strategic Defenses'' (Crowell, 1966) *''Careers in Data Processing'' (Lothrop, Lee &amp; Shepard, 1969) *''Jobs in Health Care'' (Lothrop, Lee &amp; Shepard, 1973) *''How to Avoid Your Heart Attack'' (Reader's Digest Press, 1974) *''Kids and Alcohol: the Deadliest Drug'' (Lothrop, Lee &amp; Shepard, 1975) *''How to Get in Shape for Sports'' (Lothrop, Lee &amp; Shepard, 1976) *''Keep Off the Grass! A Scientist's Documented Account of Marijuana's Destructive Effects on Man'' (with [[Gabriel G. Nahas]]) (Reader's Digest Press, 1976) *''The Nibbling Diet: the Natural Way to Lose Weight and Keep it Off'' (Putnam, 1978) *''Miracle Chip: the Microelectronic Revolution'' (Lothrop, Lee &amp; Shepard, 1979) ===Documentaries=== *''The Mighty Atom'' (on ''[[The Twentieth Century]]'', [[CBS News]], 1967) ==Notes== {{Reflist}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Englebardt, Stanley L.}} [[Category:1925 births]] [[Category:2014 deaths]] [[Category:New York University alumni]] [[Category:American science writers]] [[Category:American journalists]] [[Category:Writers from Brooklyn]] [[Category:American magazine editors]] [[Category:20th-century American male writers]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leland_Baldwin&diff=1259226760</id> <title>Leland Baldwin</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leland_Baldwin&diff=1259226760"/> <updated>2024-11-24T01:42:45Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: trim <hr /> <div>{{Short description|American author and historian (1897–1981)}} {{Infobox writer | embed = | honorific_prefix = | name = Leland DeWitt Baldwin | honorific_suffix = | image = | image_size = | image_upright = | alt = | caption = | native_name = | native_name_lang = | pseudonym = | birth_name = Leland DeWitt Baldwin | birth_date = {{Birth date|1897|11|23}} | birth_place = [[Fairchance, Pennsylvania]], US | death_date = {{Death date and age|1981|3|6|1897|11|23}} | death_place = [[Santa Barbara, California]], US | occupation = {{ubl|[[Professor]]|[[Author]]|[[Historian]]}} | language = [[English Language|English]] | alma_mater = {{ubl|[[Greenville College]] ([[Bachelor of Arts|BA]])|[[University of Michigan]] ([[Master of Arts|MA]], [[PhD]])}} | genre = [[History]], [[non-fiction]], [[historical fiction]]&lt;!-- or: | genres = --&gt; | movement = | notable_works = | spouse = Ruth Glosser Baldwin&lt;!-- or: | spouses = --&gt; | partner = &lt;!-- or: | partners = --&gt; | awards = [[Legion of Merit]] | signature = | signature_alt = | years_active = | module = | website = &lt;!-- {{URL|example.org}} --&gt; | portaldisp = &lt;!-- &quot;on&quot;, &quot;yes&quot;, &quot;true&quot;, etc.; or omit --&gt; }} '''Leland DeWitt Baldwin''' (November 23, 1897 - March 6, 1981) was a professor, historian, and writer. He directed the [[Historical Society of Western Pennsylvania|Western Pennsylvania Historical Survey]] and served as a professor of American history at the [[University of Pittsburgh]]. He authored many works, including ''[[The Delectable Country]]'' (1939), ''[[The Stream of American History]]'' (1952), and ''[[The American Quest for the City of God]]'' (1981). ==Early life and education== [[File:Baldwin Family Photo.png|thumb|Leland Baldwin (far right) with his family, age 7 or 8.]] Baldwin was born in [[Fairchance, Pennsylvania]], on November 23, 1897, to Reverend Harmon Allen Baldwin and Etta Weatherly Baldwin. His father was a renowned figure in the [[Free Methodist Church]] within the [[Ohio Valley]] and was once considered a candidate for the [[Prohibition Party]] [[VPOTUS|vice-presidential nomination]].&lt;ref name = &quot;pitt&quot;&gt;{{cite web | url = https://pabook.libraries.psu.edu/literary-cultural-heritage-map-pa/bios/Baldwin_Leland_Dewitt | title = Leland Baldwin | last = Brown| first = Courtney | date = Spring 2014 | website = Pennsylvania Center for the Book | access-date = December 1, 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221203034815/https://pabook.libraries.psu.edu/literary-cultural-heritage-map-pa/bios/Baldwin_Leland_Dewitt |archive-date=December 3, 2022 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; He had two siblings; a younger brother, Harmon Wayland Baldwin, and a younger sister, Evelyn Clara Baldwin.&lt;ref name=&quot;bio&quot;&gt;{{cite journal| last1 = Chester | first1 = Edward W.| date = July 1, 1988 | url = https://journals.psu.edu/wph/article/view/4116/3933 | title = Leland DeWitt Baldwin: The Evolution of a Historian, 1897-1981.| journal = Western Pennsylvania Historical Magazine| pages = 199–233|archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20221203154347/https://journals.psu.edu/wph/article/view/4116/3933|archive-date=December 3, 2022 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; From 1917 to 1920, Baldwin worked in a variety of factories. He also worked in a hammer shop as a book keeper, where he solved a reoccurring issue of hammer shop helpers striking. From 1920-1922, he worked as a [[Wallpaper|paper hanger]].&lt;ref name=&quot;bio&quot;/&gt; Baldwin attended [[Greenville College]] beginning in 1915, where he showed himself to be a reliably high-achieving student. While at [[Greenville College|Greenville]], he played [[basketball]] and performed [[karaoke]], including &quot;Bedouin Love Song&quot; and &quot;In the Garden of my Heart.&quot;&lt;ref name =&quot;bio&quot;/&gt; He also was known for pulling pranks.&lt;ref name=&quot;pitt&quot;/&gt; Baldwin graduated from [[Greenville College|Greenville]] in 1921 with a [[Bachelor of Arts]]. He began attending the [[University of Michigan]] during the Summers in 1922, seeking a [[Master of Arts]]. He wrote his dissertation on ''&quot;Old Steamboat Days on the Lower Mississippi&quot;'' under [[Ulrich Phillips]], then became [[Dwight L. Dumond|Dwight Dumond's]] first graduate student. He received his [[Master of Arts|MA]] in 1923, and continued his studies at the [[University of Michigan]] pursuing a [[PhD|doctorate in history]], which he received in 1932.&lt;ref name=&quot;bio&quot;/&gt; == Academic career == Baldwin taught at [[Miltonvale Wesleyan College|Miltonvale College]] during the [[academic year]] from 1922 to 1924. There he taught American and Modern History, as well as English Literature. In his second year he coached their athletic teams. From 1924 to 1926 he taught at Har-brack High School in [[Pennsylvania]], and from 1926 to 1931 he taught at Crafton High School also in [[Pennsylvania]]. In 1932 he returned to [[Ann Arbor]] to focus on completing his [[PhD|doctorate]].&lt;ref name=&quot;bio&quot;/&gt; [[File:Miltonvale Wesleyan College 1915.png|thumb|left|[[Miltonvale Wesleyan College|Miltonvale College]], 1915]] After completing his doctorate, Baldwin became a research assistant and librarian for the ''Western Pennsylvania Historical Survey'' under the [[Historical Society of Western Pennsylvania]]. He also served as a director of the survey from 1935 to 1936. Baldwin simultaneously lectured at the [[University of Pittsburgh]] and served as the first editor at the [[University of Pittsburgh Press]].&lt;ref name=&quot;bio&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;obituary&quot;&gt;{{cite news|author=&lt;!--not stated--&gt;|title= Leland Baldwin, historian|url=https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=QugNAAAAIBAJ&amp;sjid=qW0DAAAAIBAJ&amp;pg=4441%2C1041545|work=The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette|date=March 7, 1981|access-date=December 7, 2022|page=8|archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20221207180458/https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=gL9scSG3K_gC&amp;dat=19810307&amp;printsec=frontpage&amp;hl=en|archive-date=December 7, 2022 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1940 he became the acting librarian of the [[University of Pittsburgh]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal|author=&lt;!--not stated--&gt;|date=January 1940|title=News Notes|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1540-6563.1940.tb00532.x?journalCode=rhis20|journal= [[The Historian]]|volume= 3|issue= 1|pages=118–128 |doi=10.1111/j.1540-6563.1940.tb00532.x |access-date=December 8, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; While librarian, he attempted to streamline the library and procure greater funding. He left his position to enlist in the military. In 1946, after leaving military service, Baldwin became an [[associate professor]] in the history department of the [[University of Pittsburgh]], and became professor in 1955. He taught primarily courses in American history and the expansion of Western civilization. He retired the University in 1961, having never actually taught a course at the university in 15 years. He had been a [[Fulbright Lecturer]] at the [[University of Leeds]] (1952-1953), a State Department Lecturer in [[Pakistan]], [[India]], and [[Sri Lanka]] (1953-54), and a [[visiting professor]] at the [[University of California Los Angeles]] (1955).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last = Skender|first = Betty|title = Pitt History Professor Tells of World Travels |url=https://documenting.pitt.edu/islandora/object/pitt%3A31735066874623/viewer#page/2/mode/2up |date=January 7, 1955|work=Pitt News|location=Pittsburgh|access-date=December 20, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; He then worked as a professor at the [[University of California Santa Barbara]] (1961-1962, 1964-1965), and [[The University of Natal]] (1963-1964) before retiring from professorship.&lt;ref name=&quot;bio&quot;/&gt; == Military service == Baldwin enlisted with a [[Captain (United States O-3)|Captain's]] commission in the [[United States Air Force]] on May 13, 1942. On December 17, 1943, he reached the rank of [[Major (United States)|Major]], and on February 27, 1945, he reached the rank of [[Lieutenant colonel (United States)|Lieutenant colonel]].&lt;ref name=&quot;bio&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url = https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3AUS-QQS-mss028/viewer|title = Guide to the Leland D. Baldwin Papers c1930-1981|last = Hall|first = Meghan|date = February 7, 2013|publisher = Historic Pittsburgh|access-date = December 2, 2022|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221203035251/https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3AUS-QQS-mss028/viewer |archive-date=December 3, 2022 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; As a historical editor he did not participate in combat, but he was present in the [[European Theater]], including [[Tunisia]] and the [[Allied Invasion of Italy]]. He received the [[European–African–Middle Eastern Campaign Medal|EAME Ribbon]], the [[Legion of Merit]], and five [[Overseas Service Bar|Overseas Service Bars]].&lt;ref name=&quot;bio&quot;/&gt; He served in the [[Tenth Air Force]]'s intelligence division.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|author =&lt;!--not stated--&gt;|title = Two Additions To University|url = https://documenting.pitt.edu/islandora/object/pitt%3A31735062143916/viewer#page/2/mode/2up| work = The Pitt Press|location = Pittsburgh| date = October 3, 1945|access-date = December 20, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; While deployed, he met [[Elliot Roosevelt]], [[Thornton Wilder]], [[Lauris Norstad]], [[John Higham (historian)|John Higham]], and [[Bernard Berenson]]. Baldwin continued to maintain steady correspondence with [[Bernard Berenson|Berenson]] for years after the war. He also penned an unpublished 280 page memoir on the war titled ''Staff Captains Never Die.'' Among other details, ''Staff Captains Never Die'' describes the logistics of [[Operation Strangle (World War II)|Operation Strangle]] and Baldwin's knowledge of the [[atomic bomb]] long before its use.&lt;ref name=&quot;bio&quot;/&gt; He retired from active duty on January 5, 1946. == Writing career == === History === In 1937, Baldwin released his first book, ''Pittsburgh: The Story of a City'', as a part of the Western Pennsylvania Historical Survey. It described in-depth the history of [[Pittsburgh]], with a focus on Pittsburgh's history prior to the [[American Civil War]]. The book covers the full history of Pittsburgh and its land, speaking of the many &quot;growing pains&quot; the city faced.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| author =&lt;!--not stated--&gt;| title = Dr. Baldwin's History Contains Colorful Tale Of District| url = https://documenting.pitt.edu/islandora/object/pitt%3A31735062158831/viewer#page/2/mode/2up | work = Pitt News| location = Pittsburgh| date = April 1939| access-date = December 21, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; Baldwin wrote and published his second book, ''Whiskey Rebels: The Story of a Frontier Uprising'', in 1939. The book tells the story of the [[Whiskey rebellion]]. The [[University of Pittsburgh]] alumni review stated &quot;This book is written to be read. It's history told the way it should be told, if it’s to be interesting to a larger group than the professional historians.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news | author = &lt;!--not stated--&gt; | title = Whiskey Rebels | url = https://documenting.pitt.edu/islandora/object/pitt%3A31735062131127/viewer#page/8/mode/2up| work = University of Pittsburgh Alumni Review| location = Pittsburgh| date = May 26, 1941| access-date = December 21, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1941, Baldwin published ''The Keelboat Age on Western Waters''. It was the last of ten books published with the Western Pennsylvania Historical Survey. It focuses on boating in the West prior to the [[steamboat]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news | author = &lt;!--not stated--&gt; | title = University Faculty Men Publish Books | url = https://documenting.pitt.edu/islandora/object/pitt%3A31735062150754/viewer#page/4/mode/2up| work = Pitt News| location = Pittsburgh| date = May 26, 1941| access-date = December 21, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; Baldwin published ''The Story of the Americas'' in 1943. Designed for popular consumption, rather than for historians, the book used &quot;unorthodox vocabulary&quot; to describe many events &quot;selected for interest rather than importance.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal|last1= Seehausen|first1= Paul|date=March 1944|title=The Story of the Americas: The Discovery, Settlement, and Development of the New World |url=https://academic.oup.com/jah/article-abstract/30/4/586/733182?redirectedFrom=fulltext |journal= The Mississippi Valley Historical Review|volume= 30|issue= 4|pages=586 |doi= 10.2307/1916723|jstor= 1916723|access-date=December 21, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1944, Baldwin, inspired by his time in Europe throughout the [[World War 2|war]], wrote ''God's Englishman: The Evolution of Anglo-Saxon Spirit.'' Baldwin posits that the success of the [[British Empire]] is due to ''The English Conscience,'' which developed as result of a variety of factors, including [[England|English]] isolation, philosophy, and [[Common law|The Common Law]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| last = Barnes | first = Demass | date = Spring 1944 | title = GOD'S ENGLISHMAN, The Evolution of the Anglo-Saxon Spirit | url = https://documenting.pitt.edu/islandora/object/pitt%3A31735062129162/viewer#page/18/mode/2up | work = Pitt Newsletter| location = Pittsburgh| access-date = December 20, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; Baldwin's 1948 work ''Best Hope of Earth: A Grammar of Democracy'' traces the routes of democracy to [[Ancient Greece]] and [[Roman Republic|Rome]]. Baldwin attempted to examine the role of [[democracy]] in the contemporary world, and concluded that &quot;democracy is a positive political process for working toward liberty, equality, and fraternity... though it bears in itself the means of improvement, it can never lay claim to perfection without destroying its essential nature.&quot;&lt;ref name = &quot;bio&quot;/&gt; In 1952, Baldwin published ''The Stream of American History'', an American history textbook. At its peak, the book was used in at least 92 universities and colleges. He published a second edition in 1957, a third edition in 1965, and a fourth in 1969.&lt;ref name = &quot;bio&quot;/&gt; In 1954, Baldwin published a book designed as a &quot;more detailed treatment of twentieth century events&quot;, ''Recent American History''. A year later, in 1955, Baldwin published ''The Meaning of America: Essays Towards an Understanding of the American Spirit.'' Designed as a companion to ''The Stream of American History'', it examined the American economic and political systems, providing a strength/weakness analysis in connection with the history of the United States.&lt;ref name = &quot;bio&quot;/&gt; In 1971, Baldwin published ''Reframing the Constitution: An Imperative for Modern America'', in which he argued for a complete re-writing of the United States Constitution. His suggestions included making Congress [[unicameral]] and re-dividing the nation into 14 distinct states: Alleghenia, Appalachia, California, Chicago, Detroit, Erie, Mississippi, Missouri, New England, New York, Oregon, Savanna, Sierra, and Texas.&lt;ref name = &quot;bio&quot;/&gt; In 1973, Baldwin collaborated with professor Robert Kelley from the [[University of California Santa Barbara]] to produce ''The American Quest''.&lt;ref name = &quot;bio&quot;/&gt; In 1981, ''The American Quest for the City of God'' was released shortly after Baldwin's death. In it, he expressed disillusionment with the [[American invasion of Vietnam]].'&lt;ref name = &quot;bio&quot;/&gt; === Historical novels === In 1939, Baldwin published his sole novel, ''[[The Delectable Country]]''. It was set in the trans-Appalachian West during the 1790s, and focused on many elements of Western Pennsylvanian History including the [[Whiskey Rebellion]]. It briefly reached several best-seller lists.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news| last = Johnson | first = Peggy | date = December 13, 1939 | title = Baldwin's 'Delectable Country' Holds Place on Best Seller List | url = https://documenting.pitt.edu/islandora/object/pitt%3A31735062148360/viewer#page/1/mode/2up | work = Pitt News| location = Pittsburgh| access-date = December 21, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[James Branch Cabell]] described it as ''&quot;as good as [[Gone with the Wind (novel)|Gone with the Wind]].&quot;''&lt;ref name=&quot;penburne&quot;&gt;{{cite journal|last1= Chester|first1= Edward|last2= Baldwin|first2= Leland|date=Spring 1988|title=Synopsis of the Penburne Quintet|url=https://digitalcommons.ursinus.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1119&amp;context=pafolklifemag|journal= Pennsylvania Folklife|volume= 37|issue= 3|pages=140–144 |access-date=December 2, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the 1970s, he planned a 5-book novel series known as the ''Penburne Quintet,'' which would have featured ''[[The Delectable Country]]'' as its third entry. The other intended entries included ''The Fourteenth Fire'', ''The Drums Draw Near'', ''Greenbay or the Rivers,'' and ''A Gentleman of No Consequence.'' He only successfully published ''[[The Delectable Country]].''&lt;ref name=&quot;penburne&quot;/&gt; == Written works == &lt;!--Some books do not have ISBN Numbers--&gt; * {{cite book |first= Leland |last=Baldwin |author-link= Leland Baldwin |author-mask=1 |title=Pittsburgh: The Story of a City, 1750-1865 |year=1937 |publisher=[[University of Pittsburgh Press]] |location=Pittsburgh |isbn=9780822952169}} * {{cite book |first= Leland |last=Baldwin |author-link= Leland Baldwin |author-mask=1 |title=The Delectable Country |year=1939 |publisher=Lee Furman, Inc. |location=New York |isbn=}} * {{cite book |first= Leland |last=Baldwin |author-link= Leland Baldwin |author-mask=1 |title=Whiskey Rebels: The Story of a Frontier Uprising |year=1939 |publisher=[[University of Pittsburgh Press]] |location=Pittsburgh |isbn=9780822951513}} * {{cite book |first= Leland |last=Baldwin |author-link= Leland Baldwin |author-mask=1 |title=The Keelboat Age on Western Waters |year=1941 |publisher=[[University of Pittsburgh Press]] |location=Pittsburgh |isbn=9780822953197}} * {{cite book |first= Leland |last=Baldwin |author-link= Leland Baldwin |author-mask=1 |title=The Story of the Americas: the Discovery, Settlement, and Development of the New World |year=1943 |publisher=[[Simon and Schuster]] |location=New York |isbn=}} * {{cite book |first= Leland |last=Baldwin |author-link= Leland Baldwin |author-mask=1 |title=God's Englishman: The Evolution of the Anglo-Saxon Spirit |year=1944 |publisher=[[Little, Brown, and Company]] |location=Boston |isbn=}} * {{cite book |first= Leland |last=Baldwin |author-link= Leland Baldwin |author-mask=1 |title=Best Hope of Earth: A Grammar of Democracy |year=1948 |publisher=[[University of Pittsburgh Press]] |location=Pittsburgh |isbn=}} * {{cite book |first= Leland |last=Baldwin |author-link= Leland Baldwin |author-mask=1 |title=The Stream of American History |year=1952 |publisher=[[Simon and Schuster]] |location=New York |isbn=}} * {{cite book |first= Leland |last=Baldwin |author-link= Leland Baldwin |author-mask=1 |title=Recent American History |year=1954 |publisher=[[American Book Company (1890)|American Book Company]] |location=New York |isbn=}} * {{cite book |first= Leland |last=Baldwin |author-link= Leland Baldwin |author-mask=1 |title=The Meaning of America: Essays Towards an Understanding of the American Spirit |year=1955 |publisher=[[University of Pittsburgh Press]] |location=Pittsburgh |isbn=9781258266233}} * {{cite book |first= Leland |last=Baldwin |author-link= Leland Baldwin |author-mask=1 |title=Reframing the Constitution: An Imperative for Modern America |year=1971 |publisher=[[ABC Clio]] |location=Santa Barbara |isbn=9780874360837}} * {{cite book |first= Leland |last=Baldwin |author-link= Leland Baldwin |author-mask=1 |title=The American Quest |year=1973 |publisher=[[Cengage|Wadsworth Publishing Company]] |location=Belmont |isbn=}} * {{cite book |first= Leland |last=Baldwin |author-link= Leland Baldwin |author-mask=1 |title=The American Quest for the City of God |year=1981 |publisher=[[Mercer University Press]] |location=Macon |isbn=9780865540163}} == References == {{reflist}} {{authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Baldwin, Leland}} [[Category:Historians from Pennsylvania]] [[Category:1897 births]] [[Category:1981 deaths]] [[Category:University of Pittsburgh faculty]] [[Category:Greenville University alumni]] [[Category:University of Michigan alumni]] [[Category:United States Army Air Forces personnel of World War II]] [[Category:Recipients of the Legion of Merit]] [[Category:Academics of the University of Leeds]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=De_Benneville_Randolph_Keim&diff=1259226621</id> <title>De Benneville Randolph Keim</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=De_Benneville_Randolph_Keim&diff=1259226621"/> <updated>2024-11-24T01:41:46Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: trim <hr /> <div>{{short description|American diplomat (1841–1914)}} {{Infobox person | name = De Benneville Randolph Keim | image = File:De Benneville Randolph Keim (aka De B. Keim), c. 1890.jpg | caption = De B. Keim, circa 1890 | birth_name = Benneville Randolph Keim | birth_date = {{birth date text|January 1841}} | birth_place = [[Reading, Pennsylvania]], U.S. | death_date = {{death date and age|1914|5|24|1841|1|}} | death_place = [[Washington, D.C.]], U.S. | resting_place = [[Charles Evans Cemetery]] | spouse = [[Jane Sumner Owen Keim]] | other names = DeBenneville Randolph Keim, De B. Randolph Keim | occupation = ''New York Herald'' correspondent ([[American Civil War]] and [[American Plains]]) and special agent to U.S. consulates in Asia, China, Egypt, and South America (1870) | known_for = Being an advisor and confidant to [[Ulysses S. Grant]] during the U.S. Civil War and Grant's presidency }} '''De Benneville Randolph Keim''' (January 1, 1841 – May 24, 1914), also known as &quot;De B. Randolph Keim&quot;, was a 19th-century journalist who became a war-time confidant of [[Ulysses S. Grant]], the commanding general of the [[Union Army]], during the [[American Civil War]], and remained an advisor to Grant through his presidency. In 1870, he was appointed by Grant as a special agent charged with inspecting America's consular offices in Asia, China, Egypt, and South America.&lt;ref&gt;Knight, Oliver. ''[https://books.google.com/books?id=gPuRQViQCi8C&amp;dq=%22DeBenneville+randolph+Keim%22&amp;pg=PA69 Following the Indian Wars: The Story of the Newspaper Correspondents Among the Campaigners]'', pp. 69-103, p. 321. Norman, Oklahoma: University of Oklahoma Press, 1960. {{ISBN|0-8061-2508-X}}&lt;/ref&gt; Post-war, Keim continued to work as a journalist, reporting from the [[American Plains]], an experience which served as background for his 1885 book, ''Sheridan’s Troopers on the Borders: A Winter Campaign on the Plains''.&lt;ref&gt;De B. Randolph Keim, in &quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1870-05-09/ed-1/seq-1/# Sheridan's Views on the Indian Question]&quot;, in &quot;Washington New and Gossip.&quot; Washington, D.C.: ''Evening Star'', May 9, 1870, p. 1.&lt;/ref&gt; ==Formative years== Born in [[Reading, Pennsylvania]], on New Year's Day, 1841 (alternate birth date: January 2),&lt;ref&gt;&quot;De B. Randolph Keim&quot;, in &quot;United States Passport Applications, June 21, 1865&quot;. Washington, D.C.: U.S. National Archives and Records Administration.&lt;/ref&gt; Keim's name was shown on records during the early part of his life as &quot;Benneville Randolph&quot; and then, beginning sometime around the early 1860s, as &quot;De Benneville Randolph&quot; or &quot;De B. Randolph&quot; when he embarked on his career in journalism. A son of [[Berks County, Pennsylvania]], native and merchant John High Keim (c. 1817–1858) and [[Cumberland County, Virginia]], native Martha Elizabeth (Randolph) Keim (1818-1890),&lt;ref&gt;Mills, Rev. William Wirt. &quot;[https://archive.org/details/keimalliedfamili21323keim Martha Elizabeth (Randolph) Keim]&quot;, in ''The Keim and Allied Families in America and Europe'', Vol. 2, pp. 626-628. Harrisburg, Pennsylvania: DeB. Randolph Keim (self-published), 1896. {{OCLC|8246869}}&lt;/ref&gt; Benneville R. Keim was christened at Reading's Christ Episcopal Church on July 26, 1841,&lt;ref&gt;&quot;Benneville Randolph Keim, John H. Keim, and Elizabeth E. R. Keim&quot;, in &quot;Pennsylvania Births and Christenings, 1709-1950&quot; (FHL microfilm 974.816 R2 K2RB and database: Christ Episcopal church, Reading, Berks, Pennsylvania). Salt Lake City, Utah: Family History Library and FamilySearch.&lt;/ref&gt; and was reared in the city's northwest ward with his siblings: Mary High (1842–1891), Edward Tudor (1845–1929), Virginia Randolph (1846–1896), Anna H. (born circa 1848), Peyton Randolph (1850–1905), and John Otto (1855–1941).&lt;ref&gt;&quot;Keim, John H., Martha, Benneville, Mary H., Edward T., Virginia R., Anna H., and Peyton R.&quot;, in U.S. Census (Reading, Berks County, Pennsylvania, 1850). Washington, D.C.: U.S. National Archives and Records Administration.&lt;/ref&gt; In 1855, Benneville Keim relocated with his family to [[Dubuque, Iowa]], where his father had entered into a business partnership with bankers F.S. Jesup &amp; Co. (later Redmond, Lovell &amp; Co.). His father's health failed after the move, however, and he succumbed to his ailments in South Charles County, Missouri on October 29, 1858. He and his family continued to reside in Dubuque until 1866 when his mother made the decision to return to Pennsylvania.&lt;ref name=&quot;Reading Eagle&quot;&gt;[http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=91566 Devlin, Ron. &quot;Work by far-ranging Reading journalist gives insight into history&quot;, Reading Eagle. 5/12/2008]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Mills, &quot;Martha Elizabeth (Randolph) Keim&quot;, in ''The Keim and Allied Families in America and Europe'', Vol. 2, p. 626-627.&lt;/ref&gt; During his formative years, he was educated in the schools of the communities where he resided. He then attended, but did not graduate from, [[Beloit College]] in Beloit, Wisconsin.&lt;ref&gt;Knight, ''Following the Indian Wars: The Story of the Newspaper Correspondents Among the Campaigners'', p. 69.&lt;/ref&gt; ==Civil War== [[File:DeB. Randolph Keim's Despatch (New York Herald excerpt Sep 18, 1863).jpg|thumb|Excerpt of Civil War report by DeB. Randolph Keim from Memphis, Tennessee, ''New York Herald'', Sept. 18, 1863.]] In response to President [[Abraham Lincoln|Abraham Lincoln's]] call for volunteer troops to defend the nation's capital following the fall of [[Fort Sumter]] to Confederate troops in mid-April 1861, Benneville Randolph Keim raised a company of men in [[Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, in the American Civil War|Harrisburg, Pennsylvania]], for enlistment. Known as the [[First City Zouaves]] (and later as the [[Harrisburg City Grays]]), his men &quot;served with great credit for nine months as Company A, One hundred and twenty-seventh Pennsylvania Volunteers&quot; ([[127th Pennsylvania Infantry]]).&lt;ref&gt;&quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn86053573/1881-03-04/ed-1/seq-5/ The Harrisburg City Grays]&quot;, in &quot;The Pennsylvania National Guard&quot;. Washington, D.C.: ''National Republican'', pp. 4-5.&lt;/ref&gt; Keim subsequently resigned, prior to the regiment's departure for the front lines of the [[American Civil War]], to take a position as a Civil War correspondent for the ''[[New York Herald]]''. According to Washington's ''Evening Star'':&lt;ref name=EveningStar&gt;&quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1914-05-25/ed-1/seq-3/#date1=1861&amp;index=7&amp;rows=20&amp;searchType=advanced&amp;language=&amp;sequence=0&amp;words=BENNEVILLE+DE+KEIM&amp;proxdistance=5&amp;date2=1914&amp;ortext=&amp;proxtext=&amp;phrasetext=%22De+Benneville+Keim%22&amp;andtext=&amp;dateFilterType=yearRange&amp;page=1 De Benneville Keim, War Reporter Is Dead: Friend and Confidant of Gen. Grant, Who Regarded Him Highly: Long Occupied Prominent Place in the Washington Corps of Newspaper Correspondents]&quot;. Washington, D.C.: ''Evening Star'', May 25, 1914, p. 3.&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;[Keim's] dispatches were notable for their accuracy and wealth of detail. One of his reports, describing the ability of Gen. Grant in his usual original style, was a factor in bringing about Grant's selection and commander of the Union Army, it was said. A week after this dispatch was printed Gen. Grant was placed in full command of the armies. The general formed a great attachment for Mr. Keim, saying of him that he had never violated a confidence.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt; ==Post-war life== After the war, Keim continued to report to the ''Herald'' from the [[American Plains]]; however, his affiliation with that publication ended sometime prior to 1877, according to ''The Cincinnati Daily Star''.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;Mr. De B. Randolph Keim&quot;, in &quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85025759/1877-07-26/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1861&amp;sort=relevance&amp;date2=1914&amp;searchType=advanced&amp;language=&amp;sequence=0&amp;lccn=&amp;index=2&amp;words=B+De+Keim+Randolph&amp;proxdistance=5&amp;state=&amp;rows=20&amp;ortext=&amp;proxtext=&amp;phrasetext=%22De+B.+Randolph+Keim%22&amp;andtext=&amp;dateFilterType=yearRange&amp;page=4 Personal].&quot; Cincinnati, OHio: ''The Cincinnati Daily Star'', July 26, 1877, p. 2.&lt;/ref&gt; When applying for his U.S. Passport on June 21, 1865, he was described as being a 24-year-old man who was 5'7 tall with brown hair and an oval face with broad forehead, brown eyes, straight nose, small mouth, and fair complexion.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;De B. Randolph Keim&quot;, in &quot;United States Passport Applications&quot; (1865), U.S. National Archives.&lt;/ref&gt; Compiling documents related to his experiences from his Plains reporting days in preparation for the release of his 1885 book, ''Sheridan’s Troopers on the Borders: A Winter Campaign on the Plains'', he entered into the editorial phase of the publication process in the spring of 1870.&lt;ref&gt;De B. Randolph Keim, in &quot;Sheridan's Views on the Indian Question&quot;, in &quot;Washington New and Gossip&quot;, ''Evening Star'' (May 9, 1870).&lt;/ref&gt; That process was interrupted during the summer of 1870, however, when he was appointed to an investigatory post by President [[Ulysses S. Grant]], and directed to inspect and report back regarding operations at [[United States Consulate|United States consulates]] in Asia, the Middle East, and South America.&lt;ref name=&quot;Reading Eagle&quot;/&gt; In notifying him of that appointment, via a letter from the Executive Mansion on July 19, 1870, Grant wrote, &quot;you are hereby appointed to examine into the accounts of Consular officers of the United States and into all matters connected with the business of their said offices&quot;, adding that Keim would be compensated &quot;at the rate of five thousand dollars ($5,000), per annum and actual necessary expenses&quot;. Grant then subsequently extended Keim's assignment three times.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;[https://archive.org/details/keimalliedfamili21323keim DeB. Randolph Keim, Agent of the United States, &amp;c.: The Official Story of an Appointment]&quot;, in ''The Keim and Allied Families in America and Europe'', Vol. 2, pp. 692-693. Harrisburg, Pennsylvania: DeB. Randolph Keim (self-published), 1896. {{OCLC|8246869}}&lt;/ref&gt; According to historian Charles Stuart Kennedy, &quot;[t]he best overall view of the U.S. consular service after almost one hundred years was provided by De Benneville Randolph Keim.&quot; His objective was &quot;to look at the accounts of consular officers and to find out how their affairs were conducted abroad.&quot; Engaged in the assignment from August 1870 through December 1872, Keim traveled a total of 47,685 miles while &quot;visiting posts in Japan, China, the Malay Peninsula, Java, India, and Egypt, and on the east and west coasts of Latin America, including the Isthmus of Panama, Ecuador, Peru, Chile, Uruguay, and Brazil&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;Kennedy, Charles Stuart.&quot; Of his experiences, said Keim:''[https://books.google.com/books?id=rfAYCwAAQBAJ&amp;q=Keim&amp;pg=PT186 The American Consul: A History of the United States Consular Service, 1776-1924]''. Washington, D.C.: New Academia Publishing, LLC, 2015. {{ISBN|978-0-9906939-7-0}}.&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;At some ports I have found gentlemen worthy of the name of consul of the United States struggling under a miserable pittance from the Government, and yet now have the respect of those around them by their personal demeanor. At other ports I have found men unworthy of the commission they held, living in elegance out of the moneys of the Government, or worse still, living upon the benefits of a humane law, which properly applied would lessen the sufferings of the American sailor.... Almost every consulate had some defects in its history, owing to the incompetency, low habits and vulgarity of some of its officers, during the endless round of evils incident to official rotation. Abuses had been committed in the collection of fees; in the exercise of judicial powers; in the adjustment of business affairs of American citizens; in the settlement, where permitted, of the estates of intestate American citizens dying abroad; in selling the American flag; in &quot;running out&quot; ships; in discharging seamen; in affording relief or medical attendance to destitute or sick American seamen; in establishing American settlements abroad; in issuing illegal passports; in countenancing shipping masters; in taxing Chinese immigrants.&lt;/blockquote&gt; Arriving first at a consular office in Japan, Keim determined that the consul there was &quot;utterly inacapable&quot;, was &quot;ignorant of the law&quot;, and had charged visitors illegally &quot;for advice given on judicial and consular matters.&quot; In China, he discovered that Consul General George F. Seward had enriched himself by keeping the fees from his sale of &quot;licenses to bars and boardinghouses in the American part of Shanghai&quot;, diverting the seamen's funds at his disposal to speculative ventures, and &quot;selling the privilege of flying the American flag to Chinese owners of junks, granting them certain immunities and advantages in the river and coastal trade.&quot; Keim did, however, have praise for at least one consul general—[[Charles W. LeGendre]]—for the appropriate and economical operation of the consular jail in his assigned territory (Amoy). Twice wounded—severely—during the Civil War while serving at the commanding officer of the [[51st New York Volunteer Infantry|51st New York Infantry]], LeGendre also distinguished himself post-war, in his capacity as consul general, by successfully persuading tribal leaders in Formosa to protect shipwrecked American seamen. As his inspection tour progressed, Keim noted that the records management and seamen's support services in Java and India were among the few that were being handled appropriately, and that staff at other offices were sincerely trying to &quot;[clean] up the messes left behind by less scrupulous predecessors [and] run straightforward operations with balanced and accurate books&quot;, according to Kennedy.&lt;ref&gt;Kennedy, ''The American Consul: A History of the United States Consular Service, 1776-1924''.&lt;/ref&gt; During this assignment, Keim reportedly also came into possession of a copy of a decree from the government of China concerning the [[Tientsin Massacre]]. The translated document was published by the ''New York Herald'' on June 18, 1871.&lt;ref name=&quot;Reading Eagle&quot;/&gt; A year later, on June 25, 1872, Keim wed Hartford, Connecticut, native Jane Sumner Owen. According to historian Mary Simmerson Cunningham Logan, the couple traveled for six months following their wedding, visiting &quot;the localities associated with their ancestral families and nearly all the countries of Europe, extending their journey to Nijni Novgorod, on the Volga.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;Logan, Mary Simmerson Cunningham (also known as Mrs. John A. Logan). ''[https://books.google.com/books?id=hnIEAAAAYAAJ&amp;dq=%22DeBenneville+randolph+Keim%22&amp;pg=PA434 The Part Taken by Women in American History]'', pp. 433-434. Wilmington, Delaware. The Perry-Nalle Publishing Co., 1912. {{OCLC|316123786}}&lt;/ref&gt; They then welcomed the August 1, 1873, and July 9, 1874 births at their Massachusetts home of daughters Elizabeth Randolph (1873–1970), who became the wife, on June 25, 1895,&lt;ref&gt;&quot;Mr. and Mrs. de B. Randolph Keim&quot;, in &quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1895-06-18/ed-1/seq-7/#date1=1861&amp;sort=relevance&amp;date2=1914&amp;searchType=advanced&amp;language=&amp;sequence=0&amp;lccn=&amp;index=3&amp;words=B+de+Keim+Randolph&amp;proxdistance=5&amp;state=&amp;rows=20&amp;ortext=&amp;proxtext=&amp;phrasetext=%22De+B.+Randolph+Keim%22&amp;andtext=&amp;dateFilterType=yearRange&amp;page=3 The World of Society]&quot;. Washington, D.C.: ''Evening Star'', June 18, 1895, p. 7.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Lieut. Charles Willauer and Elizabeth Keim (marriage announcement), in &quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1895-06-24/ed-1/seq-7/#date1=1861&amp;sort=relevance&amp;date2=1914&amp;searchType=advanced&amp;language=&amp;sequence=0&amp;lccn=&amp;index=10&amp;words=B+De+Keim+Randolph&amp;proxdistance=5&amp;state=&amp;rows=20&amp;ortext=&amp;proxtext=&amp;phrasetext=%22De+B.+Randolph+Keim%22&amp;andtext=&amp;dateFilterType=yearRange&amp;page=3 The World of Society]&quot;. Washington, D.C.: ''Evening Star'', June 24, 1897, p. 5.&lt;/ref&gt; of Charles Willauer Kutz, lieutenant-general, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers; and Harriet Virginia (1874–1924), who never married.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;Harriette Virginia Keim, De B. Randolph Keim, and Jane Owen Keim&quot;, in Death Records (Washington, D.C., April 30, 1924). Washington, D.C.: District Records Center, District of Columbia&lt;/ref&gt; By 1880, Keim was residing with his wife and young daughters on Hill Road in Reading, Pennsylvania.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;Keim, D. B. Randolph, Jennie O., Elizabeth R, and Harriet V.&quot;, in U.S. Census (Reading, Berks County, Pennsylvania, 1880). Washington, D.C.: U.S. National Archives and Records Administration.&lt;/ref&gt; As their lives unfolded, his work began to appear in multiple publications, including the ''Philadelphia Times'',&lt;ref&gt;&quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn82015679/1887-12-25/ed-1/seq-3/ The Press People: A Chapter Which Treats Exclusively of Newspaper Men and Their Ways]&quot;. Indianapolis, Indiana: ''The Indianapolis Journal'', pp. 3-4.&lt;/ref&gt; while his wife became increasingly involved with the [[Daughters of the American Revolution]] (D.A.R.).&lt;ref&gt;&quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn82014086/1912-11-25/ed-1/seq-6/#date1=1861&amp;index=12&amp;rows=20&amp;searchType=advanced&amp;language=&amp;sequence=0&amp;words=DeBenneville+Keim+Randolph&amp;proxdistance=5&amp;date2=1914&amp;ortext=&amp;proxtext=&amp;phrasetext=%22De+Benneville+Randolph+Keim%22&amp;andtext=&amp;dateFilterType=yearRange&amp;page=1 Mrs. Keim Dead: First State Regent of the Connecticut D.A.R. — End Came at Her Home in Reading, Pa.]&quot; Norwich, Connecticut: ''Norwich Bulletin'', November 25, 1912, p. 6.&lt;/ref&gt; Tragedy truck the Keim family in late 1885 when Keim's young son and namesake, De Benneville Keim (1880–1885), died in Reading at the age of five on November 22. The following June, [[Christ Episcopal Church (Reading, Pennsylvania)|Christ Episcopal Church]] installed a new stained glass window in memory of the boy.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;[https://www.newspapers.com/image/46482979/?terms=%22Christ%20Church%22&amp;match=2 Handsome Memorial Window].&quot; Reading, Pennsylvania: ''Reading Times'', June 26, 1886, front page (subscription required).&lt;/ref&gt; By the end of the decade, columnists for [[Washington, D.C.]]'s ''Evening Star'' were noting that Keim's wife and daughters spent summers at their cottage at [[Martha's Vineyard]] while Keim stayed behind at their home in Washington, D.C., in order to cover Congress while it was in session. When it wasn't, he spent weekends at &quot;Edge Mount&quot;, the family's &quot;picturesque home&quot; in Reading, Pennsylvania.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;Mrs. DeB. Randolph Keim&quot;, in &quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1888-08-04/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1861&amp;sort=relevance&amp;date2=1914&amp;searchType=advanced&amp;language=&amp;sequence=0&amp;lccn=&amp;index=16&amp;words=DeB+Keim+Randolph&amp;proxdistance=5&amp;state=&amp;rows=20&amp;ortext=&amp;proxtext=&amp;phrasetext=%22De+B.+Randolph+Keim%22&amp;andtext=&amp;dateFilterType=yearRange&amp;page=8 Society Notes]&quot;. Washington, D.C.: ''Evening Star'', August 1, 1888, p. 1.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;&quot;Mrs. de B. Randolph Keim&quot;, in &quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1889-11-09/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1861&amp;sort=relevance&amp;date2=1914&amp;searchType=advanced&amp;language=&amp;sequence=0&amp;lccn=&amp;index=4&amp;words=B+de+Keim+Randolph&amp;proxdistance=5&amp;state=&amp;rows=20&amp;ortext=&amp;proxtext=&amp;phrasetext=%22De+B.+Randolph+Keim%22&amp;andtext=&amp;dateFilterType=yearRange&amp;page=6 Social Events]&quot;. Washington, D.C.: ''Evening Star'', November 9, 1889, p. 2.&lt;/ref&gt; During the 1890s, his journalism career also involved writing about society news. According to ''The Wichita Daily Eagle'', which ran an extensive biographical sketch of him under the headline, “Of Deb. Randolph Keim: The Best Society Writer in Washington Is a Man”:&lt;ref&gt;“[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn82014635/1890-05-25/ed-1/seq-11/#date1=1861&amp;sort=relevance&amp;date2=1914&amp;searchType=advanced&amp;language=&amp;sequence=0&amp;lccn=&amp;index=10&amp;words=DeB+Keim+Randolph&amp;proxdistance=5&amp;state=&amp;rows=20&amp;ortext=&amp;proxtext=&amp;phrasetext=%22De+B.+Randolph+Keim%22&amp;andtext=&amp;dateFilterType=yearRange&amp;page=7 Of Deb. Randolph Keim: The Best Society Writer in Washington Is a Man: He Entered the Lists as a Reporter of Social News by the Military Way. What He Offers Is Always Reliable. His Eventful Career]”. Wichita, Kansas, ''The Wichita Daily Eagle'', May 25, 1890, p. 11.&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;Mr. Keim is the court chronicler of the republic, the semi-official, recognized and authoritative purveyor of the news of society. There are other society reporters, plenty of them, and many who report more news and write more gossip than he, but whatever Keim writes goes unquestioned as to its accuracy and undoubted as to its authority.... Mr. Keim, though the descendant of one of the best families in Pennsylvania, had no aristocratic training for his work. He approached the social field by the military road. During the war of the rebellion he was correspondent of The New York Herald. While at the front for his paper he formed friendships with such great generals as Grant, Sherman, Sheridan and McPherson, friendships which lasted as long as these men lived. It was to Mr. Keim that Gen. Grant said just before they took him to Mount McGregor, &quot;I shall be dead within six weeks.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt; Present when President [[William McKinley]] was [[Assassination of William McKinley|shot in Buffalo]] on September 6, 1901, Keim quickly wrote down what he had seen, and penned his &quot;Extraordinary Eyewitness Account of the Assassination of President McKinley&quot; the next day. A week later, McKinley died from his wounds (on September 14).&lt;ref&gt;Keim, De B. Randolph. &quot;[http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/eyewitness-account-of-the-assassination-of-president-mckinley Extraordinary Eyewitness Account of the Assassination of President McKinley].&quot; Herzliya, Israel: Shappell Manuscript Foundation, retrieved online August 24, 2018.&lt;/ref&gt; In 1912, he became a widower when his wife, Jane Sumner Owen Keim, died at their home in Reading, Pennsylvania on November 22.&lt;ref&gt;&quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1912-11-23/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1861&amp;index=1&amp;date2=1914&amp;searchType=advanced&amp;language=&amp;sequence=0&amp;lccn=&amp;words=B+DE+De+DeB+Keim+KEIM+RANDOLPH+Randolph&amp;proxdistance=5&amp;state=&amp;rows=20&amp;ortext=&amp;proxtext=&amp;phrasetext=%22De+B.+Randolph+Keim%22&amp;andtext=&amp;dateFilterType=yearRange&amp;page=1 Mrs. De B. Randolph Keim Dies at Reading Home: Part of Each Year Spent in This City, Where Husband Is Engaged in Literary Work]&quot;. Washington, D.C.: ''Evening Star'', November 23, 1912, p. 2.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;&quot;Connecticut Deaths and Burials, 1772-1934&quot; (FHL microfilm 3,152 and database: Jane S. O. Keim, 22 Nov 1912). Salt Lake City, Utah: Family History Library and FamilySearch.&lt;/ref&gt; ==Death and interment== Keim died at the [[Walter Reed Army Medical Center|Walter Reed Hospital]] in Washington, D.C., on May 24, 1914.&lt;ref name=EveningStar/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;&quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85038411/1914-05-28/ed-1/seq-10/#date1=1861&amp;index=1&amp;rows=20&amp;searchType=advanced&amp;language=&amp;sequence=0&amp;words=Benneville+De+Keim+Randolph&amp;proxdistance=5&amp;date2=1914&amp;ortext=&amp;proxtext=&amp;phrasetext=%22De+Benneville+Randolph+Keim%22&amp;andtext=&amp;dateFilterType=yearRange&amp;page=1 De Benneville Randolph Keim]&quot;, in &quot;Evening Chat&quot;. Harrisburg, Pennsylvania: ''Harrisburg Telegraph'', May 28, 1914, p. 10.&lt;/ref&gt; His remains were returned to [[Berks County, Pennsylvania]]. Following funeral services, he was laid to rest at the [[Charles Evans Cemetery]] in Reading.&lt;ref name=&quot;Washington Herald&quot; &gt;{{cite web|url=http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045433/1914-05-26/ed-1/seq-12/|title=The Washington herald. (Washington, D.C.) 1906-1939, May 26, 1914, Image 12|date=26 May 1914|publisher=|pages=12|via=chroniclingamerica.loc.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; In its May 25 obituary for Keim, ''The Washington Post'' observed:&lt;ref&gt;&quot;[https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/31576407/ Dead: De B. R. Keim, Who Chronicled Civil Strife, Was 73. Noted for His Accuracy: as One of Best Known Washington Correspondents for Many Years — Two of His Daughters Live Here — Made Tour of World for Grant, Inspecting U. S. Consulates — Funeral Tomorrow].&quot; Washington, D.C.: ''The Washington Post'', p. 2.&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;Mr. Keim's dispatches during the civil war were notable for their original style, accuracy, and wealth of detail. It Is said that one of his dispatches, which described the methods of Gen. Grant and dealt with his ability as a commander, was one of the prime factors in bringing about Grant's selection as commander of the Union forces. When Grant became President he commissioned Mr. Keim to inspect the United States consulates in every part of the world.... Following the close of the war Mr. Keim continued in newspaper work, becoming one of the foremost of the Washington correspondents.&lt;/blockquote&gt; ==Publications== Keim's works included:&lt;ref&gt;&quot;De B. Randolph Keim&quot;, in &quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85033699/1870-09-04/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1861&amp;sort=relevance&amp;date2=1914&amp;searchType=advanced&amp;language=&amp;sequence=0&amp;lccn=&amp;index=12&amp;words=B+De+Keim+Randolph&amp;proxdistance=5&amp;state=&amp;rows=20&amp;ortext=&amp;proxtext=&amp;phrasetext=%22De+B.+Randolph+Keim%22&amp;andtext=&amp;dateFilterType=yearRange&amp;page=4 New Publications]&quot;. Nashville, Pennsylvania: ''Nashville Union and American'', September 4, 1870, p. 1.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;&quot;Mr. de B. Randolph Keim&quot;, in &quot;[https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1884-05-24/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1861&amp;sort=relevance&amp;date2=1914&amp;searchType=advanced&amp;language=&amp;sequence=0&amp;lccn=&amp;index=14&amp;words=B+de+Keim+Randolph&amp;proxdistance=5&amp;state=&amp;rows=20&amp;ortext=&amp;proxtext=&amp;phrasetext=%22De+B.+Randolph+Keim%22&amp;andtext=&amp;dateFilterType=yearRange&amp;page=5 Literary Notes]&quot;. Washington, D.C.: ''Evening Star'', May 24, 1884, p. 2.&lt;/ref&gt; * Keim, De B. Randolph, Appleton P.C. Griffin, et.al. ''[https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015002683152;view=1up;seq=12;size=125 Sherman: A Memorial in Art, Oratory, and Literature by the Society of the Army of the Tennessee with the Aid of the Congress of the United States of America]''. Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1904. {{OCLC|166631098}} * Keim, De B. ''[https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=loc.ark:/13960/t1kh1bp7c;view=1up;seq=9 A Guide to the Potomac River, Chesapeake Bay and James River, and an Ocean Voyage to Northern Ports. A Series of Interesting and Instructive Excursions by Water from Washington]''. Washington, D.C.: Self-published, 1881. {{OCLC|978693580}} * Keim, De B. Randolph. ''[https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=umn.31951001522757r;view=1up;seq=3 Handbook Of Official and Social Etiquette and Public Ceremonials at Washington]'', Second Edition. Washington, D.C.: Self-published, 1886. {{OCLC|975141957}} * Keim, De B. Randolph. ''[https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081883450;view=1up;seq=9 Keim's Illustrated Hand-book. Washington and Its Environs: A Descriptive and Historical Hand-book of the Capital of the United States of America]''. Washington, D.C.: Self-published, 1886. {{OCLC|8557743}} * Keim, De B. Randolph. ''[https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044044504058;view=1up;seq=5 Reports of De B. Randolph Keim, agent of the United States, etc., to the secretary of the Treasury, relating to the condition of the consulates of the United States in Japan, China, Cochin China, Malay Peninsula, Java, British India, Egypt, and on the east and west coasts of South America].'' Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1871. {{OCLC|975473884}} * Keim, De B. Randolph. ''[https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081700506;view=1up;seq=9 San Domingo: Pen Pictures And Leaves Of Travel, Romance And History, From The Portfolio Of A Correspondent In The American Tropics]''. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Claxton, Remsen &amp; Haffelfinger, 1870. {{OCLC|982565433}} * Keim, De B. Randolph. ''[https://archive.org/details/sheridanstrooper00keim Sheridan’s Troopers on the Borders: A Winter Campaign on the Plains]''. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: David McKay, 1885. {{OCLC|35703698}} ==References== {{Reflist}} ==External links== {{commons category-inline}} * &quot;[https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/73311822/debenneville-randolph-keim DeBenneville Randolph Keim]&quot; (memorial and gravesite information). Salt Lake City, Utah: Find A Grave, retrieved online August 23, 2018. * &quot;[http://www.phmc.state.pa.us/bah/dam/mg/mg246.htm Records of the First City Zouaves; Company A, 127th Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry; Harrisburg City Grays; and Company D, 8th Regiment, National Guard of Pennsylvania, 1862-1917]&quot; (explanation of holdings in Manuscript Group 246). Harrisburg, Pennsylvania: Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission. * {{Internet Archive author |sname=De Benneville Randolph Keim}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Keim, De Benneville Randolph}} [[Category:1841 births]] [[Category:1914 deaths]] [[Category:People from Reading, Pennsylvania]] [[Category:People from Dubuque, Iowa]] [[Category:People from Washington, D.C.]] [[Category:American male journalists]] [[Category:19th-century American diplomats]] [[Category:Burials at Charles Evans Cemetery]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Robert_D._Perkins_Sr.&diff=1259226488</id> <title>Robert D. Perkins Sr.</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Robert_D._Perkins_Sr.&diff=1259226488"/> <updated>2024-11-24T01:40:44Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: trim <hr /> <div>{{Short description|African-American civil rights activist}} {{Orphan|date=August 2021}} {{Infobox person | name = Robert D. Perkins Sr. | image = | caption = | birth_name = Robert Dean | birth_date = {{birth date|1922|8|11}} | birth_place = [[Stuart, Florida]], U.S. | death_date = {{death date and age|1994|04|19|1922|8|11}} | death_place = [[Tallahassee]], Florida, U.S. | occupation = [[Civil rights activist]] | education = [[Florida A&amp;M University]] ([[Bachelor of Science|BS]]) | spouse = Trudie Perkins | website = {{url|talgov.com|Official website}} }} '''Robert Dean Perkins Sr.''' (August 11, 1922 – April 19, 1994) was an American educator, businessman and [[civil rights activist]] based in [[Tallahassee, Florida]]. Perkins and his wife, Trudie, are credited with being the catalysts for bringing about equitable changes in employment practices in municipal government at a time when no [[African-Americans]] held high-ranking positions in city administration. The result of their efforts was a consent decree, entered and ordered against the city of Tallahassee in 1975 mandating the hiring of African-Americans at a ratio equal to their population in the city at that time.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.wctv.tv/2020/11/13/city-looks-to-rename-street-after-robert-and-trudie-perkins-a-civil-rights-power-couple/|title=City looks to rename street after Robert and Trudie Perkins, a Civil Rights 'power couple'|first=Monica|last=Casey|website=www.wctv.tv|date=13 November 2020 }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Early life and education== Robert Perkins served in the [[U.S. Army]], fought in [[World War II]], and was honorably discharged in 1944. He would later meet Trudie Mae Chester while matriculating at [[Florida A&amp;M University]]. He graduated from Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University in 1947 with a degree in [[physics]], [[auto mechanics]], and [[mathematics]], later teaching each of these subjects as a professor at both his alma mater and [[Florida State University]]. Robert Perkins married Trudie Mae Chester on September 10, 1946. Their children were Robert Dean Perkins Jr., Romerio Dorianzo Perkins, Loretta Zelena Perkins Speed, Jacqueline Yvonne Perkins and Reginuer Demetre Perkins. ==Career== Robert and Trudie Perkins owned and operated Perkins Service Station and Beauty Shop, which was located on the corner of Osceola Street and Railroad Avenue (now [[Althea Gibson]] Way). Notably, they provided an array of services (at minimal cost or by extending credit) to Bond residents, as well as faculty, staff, and students at FAMU. Perkins Service Station was the only black-owned service station with three (3) gas pumps. They were able to provide ample levels of gas to residents participating in the Tallahassee bus boycott. A professor at both FAMU and Florida State University, Mr. Perkins also spent countless hours tutoring FAMU teaching assistants and students in math, chemistry, and other subjects. In his quest to facilitate learning gains, he would often extend assistance to students/faculty outside of the classroom. He tutored many of them at the service station as he repaired automobiles (late night) or at his own home. During the early 1950s, Robert Perkins was one of the only black residents who advocated for the construction of recreational facilities for black youth. He persisted in his efforts for a protracted period. When it became apparent that this was not a priority for City of Tallahassee officials, Mr. Perkins and Mr. Charlie Jenkins loaded their vehicles with black youth and took them to play at recreation centers and parks in white neighborhoods. This action prompted the City to identify and allocate funding for construction of a recreation center for blacks. Soon thereafter, Jake Gaither Park and Recreation Center was constructed in 1954. During the early '60s, Mr. Perkins headed the Recreation Advisory Council and petitioned the City and Leon County Commissions to provide more funds, support, and manpower for expansion of the Negro recreation facilities in Tallahassee and throughout the County.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=https://www.newspapers.com/clip/80957053/tallahassee-democrat/|title=Clipped From Tallahassee Democrat|newspaper=Tallahassee Democrat |date=June 6, 1962|pages=11|via=newspapers.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Legacy== Mrs. Trudie Perkins was one of the first black nurses to be employed at [[Tallahassee Memorial HealthCare]]; she was relentless in her efforts to abolish discriminatory employment practices and fought against the harassment and mistreatment faced by black workers.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=https://www.newspapers.com/clip/80957123/tallahassee-democrat/|title=Clipped From Tallahassee Democrat|newspaper=Tallahassee Democrat |date=July 6, 1971|pages=15|via=newspapers.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; Subsequent to the termination of Mrs. Perkins and her coworker Lizzie Smith, Robert Perkins prepared case files for and assisted 25 workers of the city-owned Tallahassee Memorial Hospital in filing complaints with the [[United States Department of Justice]]. He used his own time and personal financial resources to travel to Washington, D.C., where he met with members of Congress, including Senators [[Ted Kennedy]], [[Edward Gurney]] and [[Birch Bayh]]. He presented evidence of racial discrimination in city employment practices, and ultimately, [[United States Attorney General]] [[William Saxbe]] agreed with Perkins. The U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) used Mr. Perkins' files to prepare its case and persisted in filing a complaint against the city of Tallahassee in December 1974, alleging that the city had engaged in &quot;a pattern and practice of discrimination&quot; against blacks in job recruiting, hiring, assignments and promotions.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=https://www.newspapers.com/clip/80957209/tallahassee-democrat/|title=Clipped From Tallahassee Democrat|newspaper=Tallahassee Democrat |date=August 24, 1980|pages=1|via=newspapers.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; In April 1975, U.S. District Judge [[Winston Arnow]] handed down a decision in which he would monitor a formal &quot;consent decree.&quot; Under terms of the consent decree, the city agreed to fill half of all vacancies with minority applicants until the long-term goal of 23.7% black representation had been achieved in eight separate job categories, especially in classifications that they had been excluded from (e.g., administrative; skilled craftsman; technician; professional; officials and administrators).&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://news.wfsu.org/wfsu-local-news/2020-11-22/city-of-tallahassee-begin-work-to-honor-newly-revered-civil-rights-activists|title=City of Tallahassee Begins Work To Honor Local Civil Rights Activists|date=November 23, 2020|website=WFSU News}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Death== Perkins died on April 19, 1994, after an extended illness. ==Honors== On September 10, 2021, the City of Tallahassee, in conjunction with [[Leon County, Florida|Leon County]] and [[Florida A&amp;M University]] hosted a formal ceremony to rename Gamble Street in honor of Robert and Trudie Perkins. The street is now known as '''Robert and Trudie Perkins Way.''' ==References== {{Reflist}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Perkins, Robert}} [[Category:1922 births]] [[Category:1994 deaths]] [[Category:Florida A&amp;M University alumni]] [[Category:20th-century African-American educators]] [[Category:20th-century American educators]] [[Category:African-American activists]] [[Category:Activists for African-American civil rights]] [[Category:United States Army personnel of World War II]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sydney_Camm&diff=1259226208</id> <title>Sydney Camm</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sydney_Camm&diff=1259226208"/> <updated>2024-11-24T01:38:37Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{short description|British aeronautical engineer}} {{More footnotes|date=December 2012}} {{Use dmy dates|date=October 2020}} {{Use British English|date=March 2012}} {{Infobox person | image = Sydney Camm 1915.jpg | image_size = | alt = | caption = Sydney Camm at Windsor Model Aeroplane Club, c. 1915 with &quot;twin-pusher&quot; style [[Free flight (model aircraft)|free flight]] model | name = Sydney Camm | nationality = British | citizenship = | birth_date = 5 August 1893 | birth_place = [[Windsor, Berkshire]], England | death_date = 12 March 1966 (aged 72) | death_place = [[Richmond, London]], England | education = Royal Free School, Windsor | spouse = Hilda Rose Starnes | parents = Frederick Camm, Mary Smith | children = 1 daughter | resting_place = Long Ditton Cemetery, [[Long Ditton|Long Ditton, Surrey]], England | module = {{Infobox engineering career |discipline = Aeronautics |institutions = [[Royal Aeronautical Society|RAeS]] |practice_name = |employer = [[Hawker Siddeley]] |significant_projects = |significant_design = [[Hawker Hurricane]], [[Hawker Hunter]] |significant_advance = [[Hawker Siddeley P.1127]] |significant_awards = [[Knight Bachelor]] (1953)&lt;br/&gt;British Gold Medal for Aeronautics (1949)&lt;br/&gt;RAeS Gold Medal (1958)&lt;br/&gt;[[Daniel Guggenheim Medal]] (1965)&lt;br/&gt;[[International Hall of Aerospace Fame]] (1984)}} }} '''Sir Sydney Camm''', [[CBE]], [[Fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society|FRAeS]] (5 August 1893{{spaced ndash}}12 March 1966) was an [[English people|English]] aeronautical engineer who contributed to many Hawker aircraft designs, from the biplanes of the 1920s to jet fighters. One particularly notable aircraft he designed was the [[Hawker Hurricane]] fighter.&lt;ref&gt;'Sir Sidney Camm Commemorative Society' website. http://www.sirsydneycamm.org&lt;/ref&gt; ==Early years== Sydney Camm was born at 10 Alma Road in Windsor, Berkshire, the eldest child of the twelve children of Frederick Camm, a carpenter/joiner and Mary Smith.&lt;ref&gt;McKinstry 2010, p. 21.&lt;/ref&gt; The Camm family lived near [[Windsor &amp; Eton Central railway station]]. His brother [[Frederick James Camm]] became a technical author, and created the ''[[Practical Wireless]]'' magazine. In 1901 he began attending the Royal Free School on Bachelors Acre in Windsor (The Royal Free school became the Royal Free Middle School with the secondary school becoming the Princess Margaret Royal Free School on Bourne Avenue). In 1906 he was granted a Foundation Scholarship. In 1908 Camm left school to become an apprentice carpenter. Camm developed an interest in [[aeronautics]]. Camm and his brothers began building model aircraft which they supplied to Herbert's Eton High Street shop. After finding that they could obtain a higher price they began making direct sales to boys at Eton College, which were delivered in secret to avoid attracting the attention of Herbert and the school authorities. These activities led him to being one of the founders of the Windsor Model Aeroplane Club in early 1912.&lt;ref&gt;McKinstry 2010, p. 22.&lt;/ref&gt; His accomplishments as a model aeroplane builder culminated in a man-carrying glider which he and others at the club built in 1912.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.thamesweb.co.uk/windsorpeople/SirSydneyCamm.html &quot;Biography of Sir Sydney Camm.&quot;] ''The Royal Windsor Website''. Retrieved: 26 March 2015.&lt;/ref&gt; ==Aviation career== Shortly before the start of World War I Camm obtained a position as a shop-floor carpenter at the [[Martinsyde]] aircraft company which was located at the Brooklands racing circuit in Weybridge, [[Surrey]]. His ability soon led to his being promoted to the drawing office, where he spent the war period. In 1919 his handbook ''[https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/73566 Aeroplane construction]'' was published. After the company went into liquidation in 1921, Camm was employed by George Handasyde, who had created his own aircraft manufacturing company, which was responsible for the creation of the [[Handasyde Monoplane]]. In November 1923 Camm joined the [[Hawker Aircraft|Hawker Aircraft Company]] (later [[Hawker Siddeley]]) based at Canbury Park Road in [[Kingston upon Thames]] as a senior [[technical drawing|draughtsman]].&lt;ref&gt;McKinstry 2010, p. 23.&lt;/ref&gt; His first design was the [[Hawker Cygnet|Cygnet]], the success of which led to his being appointed chief designer in 1925. In 1925, in association with [[Frederick Sigrist|Fred Sigrist]], Hawker's managing director, Camm developed a form of metal construction that used jointed tubes as a cheaper and simpler alternative to welded structures. During his employment at Hawker he was responsible for the creation of 52 different types of aircraft, of which a total of 26,000 were manufactured.&lt;ref&gt;McKinstry 2010, p. 25.&lt;/ref&gt; Among his early designs were the [[Hawker Tomtit|Tomtit]], [[Hawker Hornbill|Hornbill]], [[Hawker Nimrod|Nimrod]], [[Hawker Hart|Hart]] and [[Hawker Fury|Fury]]. At one time in the 1930s 84 per cent of the aircraft in the RAF were designed by Camm. He then moved on to designing aeroplanes that would become mainstays of the RAF in the [[World War II|Second World War]] including the Hawker Hurricane, [[Hawker Typhoon]] and [[Hawker Tempest]]. :&quot;Camm had a one-tracked mind – his aircraft were right, and everybody had to work on them to get them right. If they did not, then there was hell. He was a very difficult man to work for, but you could not have a better aeronautical engineer to work under. [...] With regard to his own staff, he did not [[suffer fools gladly]], and at times many of us appeared to be fools. One rarely got into trouble for doing something either in the ideas line, or in the manufacturing line, but woe betide those who did nothing, or who put forward an indeterminate solution.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.eagle.ca/~harry/aircraft/typhoon/sir_camm.htm &quot;A recollection by Robert Lickey, an engineer who worked for Camm at Hawker Aircraft.&quot;] {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20050426020137/http://www.eagle.ca/~harry/aircraft/typhoon/sir_camm.htm |date=26 April 2005 }} ''Eagle.ca''. Retrieved: 26 March 2015.&lt;/ref&gt; Among the engineers who worked with Camm at Hawker were Sir [[Frederick Page]] (later to design the [[English Electric Lightning]]), Leslie Appleton (later to design the advanced [[Fairey Delta 2]] and Britain's first air-to-air missile, the [[Fairey Fireflash]]), [[Stuart Davies (engineer)|Stuart Davies]] (joined [[Avro]] in 1936 and later to be chief designer of the [[Avro Vulcan]]), [[Roy Chaplin]] (became chief designer at Hawker in 1957) and Sir [[Robert Lickley]] ([[chief project engineer]] during the war, and later to be chief engineer at [[Fairey Aviation Company|Fairey]]). ===Hurricane=== [[File:hurricane.r4118.ground.arp.jpg|thumb|left|The [[Hawker Hurricane]] was designed by Sir Sydney Camm.]] With the Hurricane, Sydney Camm moved from the technology of the [[biplane]] to contemporary [[monoplane]] fighter aircraft. The result was that fighters flew faster, and with the improved engine technology of the time, higher, and could be made more deadly than ever. The Hawker engineer [[Frank Murdoch]] was responsible for getting the Hurricane into production in sufficient numbers before the outbreak of the war, after an eye-opening visit to the [[MAN SE|MAN]] diesel plant in [[Augsburg]] in 1936. ===Typhoon=== [[File:Hawker Typhoon.jpg|thumb|left|Hawker Typhoon]] When the Typhoon's design first emerged and entered squadron service, pilots became aware that there was [[Elevator (aircraft)|elevator]] flutter and buffeting at high speeds, due to the positioning of the heavy [[Napier Sabre]] engine intake very close to the [[wing root]]. The engineering of the aircraft to travel at higher speeds and handle [[Sonic boom|compressibility effects]] was one of the challenges of the day, but with his small design team of one hundred members at Hawker, Camm managed to solve these problems and make the Typhoon an effective combat weapon even at these speeds. As operational requirements changed, the Typhoon was used more as a fighter-bomber, in which role its low level performance, weapon-carrying capabilities and ability to absorb damage made it very effective. It was much used in the [[Falaise pocket|Battle of the Falaise Pocket]], in which [[ground-attack aircraft]] proved very destructive. German losses were so severe that most of France was retaken less than two weeks after the conclusion of this operation. ===Tempest=== [[File:Hawker Tempest Mk V prototype ExCC.jpg|thumb|left|Hawker Tempest prototype]] The lessons learned from the Hawker Typhoon were incorporated into its successor, the [[Hawker Tempest]]. As soon as the Typhoon entered service, the [[Air Ministry]] requested a new design. Camm recommended that they keep the existing design of the Typhoon for the most part, with modifications to the [[aerofoil]]. He also considered the new and powerful [[Napier Sabre]] and [[Bristol Centaurus]] engines as the powerplant. Camm decided that both engines would be used: the Tempest Mk 5 was fitted with the Napier Sabre, while the Tempest Mk 2 had the Bristol Centaurus. The design modifications to be made to the aircraft to switch from one engine type to another were minimal, so that little assistance was needed in ferrying these aircraft all the way to India and [[Pakistan]], in the final days of the conflict. ===Sea Fury=== This was a higher performance development of the Tempest with a reduced wing area, a Centaurus engine, and a considerably improved view for the pilot. Named the Fury, only the carrier-based [[Hawker Sea Fury]] went into service, serving with the Royal Navy from 1947 to 1955. ==Post-war work== After the [[World War II|Second World War]], Camm created many jet-powered designs which would become important aircraft in the [[Cold War]] era. ===Harrier=== [[File:Hawker P.1127 prototype Brooklands.jpg|thumb|left|Hawker P.1127]] Notable among Camm's post-war work is his contribution to the design of the [[Hawker Siddeley P.1127|Hawker Siddeley P.1127 / Kestrel FGA.1]], the progenitor of the [[Hawker Siddeley Harrier]]. The Harrier is a well-known [[vertical takeoff and landing]] ([[VTOL]]) aircraft designed at Hawker Siddeley, which would later merge into [[British Aerospace]], now known as [[BAE Systems]]. The Harrier was one of the radical aircraft which took shape in postwar Britain, which required the bringing together of many important technologies, such as [[thrust vectoring|vectored thrust]] engines like the [[Rolls-Royce Pegasus|Bristol Siddeley (later Rolls-Royce) Pegasus]] and technologies like the [[Reaction Control System]]. Camm played a major role in determining these and other vital Harrier systems. In 1953, Camm was knighted for these and other achievements and his contribution to British Aviation.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.aspx?pdf=39904&amp;geotype=London&amp;gpn=3676&amp;type=ArchivedIssuePage&amp;all=Sydney%20Camm&amp;exact=&amp;atleast=&amp;similar= &quot;Sydney Camm.&quot;] ''London Gazette'', 1953.&lt;/ref&gt; The P.1127 first flew on 21 October 1960. Working with Camm on this aircraft and the Hunter was Professor [[John Fozard]], who became head of the Hawker design office in 1961 and would write a biography of Camm in 1991. ===Hunter=== [[File:hawker hunter t7 blue diamond arp.jpg|thumb|left|The Hunter, designed by Sydney Camm, made its first flight in 1951. This privately owned Hawker Hunter T.7 &quot;Blue Diamond&quot; is seen at speed during an air display in 2007.]] Camm worked on many aircraft built by Hawker before the Harrier, including what is probably his most significant aircraft after the Second World War, the [[Hawker Hunter]]. ==Final years== Sydney Camm was knighted 2 June 1953, on the occasion of the coronation of [[Queen Elizabeth II]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine|editor=Smith, Maurice A.|title=Coronation Honours|magazine=Flight|volume=LXIII|number=2316|date=12 June 1953|url=https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1953/1953%20-%200751.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; Camm was President of the Royal Aeronautical Society (RAeS) from 1954 to 1955. Since 1971 the RAeS has held the biennial Sir Sydney Camm Lecture in June, given by the current [[commander-in-chief]] of [[RAF Air Command]]. [[File:HurricaneWindsor-wyrdlight-787901.jpg|thumb|Full-size replica Hurricane tribute to Camm at his boyhood home at Windsor]] Camm retired as chief designer at Hawker in 1965 and was succeeded by [[John Fozard]]. He, however, remained on the board of its successor, Hawker Siddeley until his death.&lt;ref&gt;McKinstry 2010, p. 321.&lt;/ref&gt; Before he died, Camm was planning the design of an aircraft to travel at [[Mach (speed)|Mach]] 4, having begun his life in aircraft design with the building of a man-carrying glider in 1912, just nine years after the [[Wright Flyer|first powered flight]]. In 1966, Camm was awarded the Guggenheim Gold Medal, which had to be presented posthumously. ==Death== Camm died in his 73rd year on 12 March 1966 whilst playing golf at the [[Richmond Golf Club]]. ==Personal life== Camm lived at [[Thames Ditton]] in Surrey. He married Hilda Starnes in 1915 and they had a daughter in 1922. ==Tributes== [[File:Kingston library, Sir Sydney Camm bust.jpg|thumb|Bust of Sydney Camm in Kingston upon Thames Library, London]] 'Camm Gardens' road in [[Kingston-upon-Thames]] was named after Sydney Camm, with a memorial in situ to his memory of a World War 2 propeller engine hub. In 2012 a full size replica of a Hawker Hurricane was erected near Alexandra Gardens, in Camm's home town of Windsor, near to his childhood home. In 1984, Camm was inducted into the [[International Air &amp; Space Hall of Fame]] at the [[San Diego Air &amp; Space Museum]].&lt;ref&gt;Sprekelmeyer, Linda, editor. ''These We Honor: The International Aerospace Hall of Fame''. Donning Co. Publishers, 2006. {{ISBN|978-1-57864-397-4}}.&lt;/ref&gt; A bronze bust by Ambrose Barber was placed in Kingston Library (2014).&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.kingston.gov.uk/news/article/197/work_of_art_commemorates_kingston_aviation_figurehead|title=Work of art commemorates Kingston aviation figurehead|date=26 September 2014|website=The Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==See also== * [[Hawker Siddeley]] ==References== '''Notes''' {{Reflist|30em}} '''Bibliography''' {{Refbegin}} * Bader, Douglas. ''Fight for the Sky: The Story of the Spitfire and Hurricane''. London: Cassell Military Books, 2004. {{ISBN|0-304-35674-3}}. * Bowyer, Chaz. ''Hurricane at War''. London: Ian Allan Ltd., 1974. {{ISBN|0-7110-0665-2}}. * Fozard, John W., Ed. ''Sydney Camm &amp; the Hurricane.'' London: Airlife, 1991. {{ISBN|1-85310-270-9}}. * Jane, Fred T. &quot;The Hawker Hurricane&quot;. ''Jane’s Fighting Aircraft of World War II''. London: Studio, 1946. {{ISBN|1-85170-493-0}}. * Mason, Francis K. ''Hawker Aircraft since 1920.'' London: Putnam, 1991. {{ISBN|0-85177-839-9}}. * McKinstry, Leo. ''Hurricane: Victor of the Battle of Britain ''. London: John Murray, 2010. {{ISBN|978-1-84854-339-3}}. {{Refend}} ==External links== * [https://web.archive.org/web/20100128225716/http://sirsydneycamm.org/default.aspx Sir Sydney Camm Commemorative Society] * [http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/index.php?title=Sydney_Camm Graces Guides] * [http://www.gatwick-aviation-museum.co.uk/hunter_t7/hunter_t7.html Hawker Hunter] * [http://www.aviation-history.com/hawker/typhoon.html Hawker Typhoon and Tempest] * [http://www.gatwick-aviation-museum.co.uk/harrier/harrier.html Hawker Siddeley Harrier] * [https://web.archive.org/web/20050408063118/http://www.shanaberger.com/engines/Pegasus.htm Bristol Siddeley Pegasus Engine] * [https://web.archive.org/web/20110116213443/http://www.raes.org.uk/CONFERENCE/lectnamed.html RAeS lectures including the Sydney Camm Lectures] === Video clips === * {{YouTube|IGEim54u4jA|Memorial service in Windsor in May 2008}} {{Hawker Aircraft aircraft}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Camm, Sydney}} [[Category:1893 births]] [[Category:1966 deaths]] [[Category:Aircraft designers]] [[Category:People from Windsor, Berkshire]] [[Category:Battle of Britain]] [[Category:English aerospace engineers]] [[Category:Fellows of the Royal Aeronautical Society]] [[Category:Commanders of the Order of the British Empire]] [[Category:Royal Aeronautical Society Gold Medal winners]] [[Category:Knights Bachelor]] [[Category:Burials in Surrey]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stephen_Hendrickson_Everitt&diff=1259226068</id> <title>Stephen Hendrickson Everitt</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stephen_Hendrickson_Everitt&diff=1259226068"/> <updated>2024-11-24T01:37:27Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div> {{close paraphrasing|date=November 2024|source=https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/everitt-stephen-hendrickson }} '''EVERITT, STEPHEN HENDRICKSON (1806–1844).''' Stephen Hendrickson Everitt, politician, merchant, and speculator, was born in Poughkeepsie, New York, on November 26, 1806. He moved to Texas in 1834, acquired land now in Jasper County, and was elected a delegate from Bevil Municipality to the Consultation of 1835 and from Jasper Municipality to the Convention of 1836. He signed the Texas Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the Republic. Everitt also served as one of three commissioners appointed to close the land offices in the Department of Nacogdoches and gained several mail contracts in Southeast Texas. He married Alta Zera Williams, and they had four children. Although Stephen was not a practicing physician in Texas, he was often referred to as &quot;Doctor Everitt&quot;. He was a strong supporter and close friend of Mirabeau B. Lamar and represented Jasper County as a senator in the first five congresses of the Republic of Texas before resigning in December 1840.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last1=Kemp |first1=L. W. |title=The Signers of the Texas Declaration of Independence |date=1959 |publisher=The Anson Jones Press |location=Salado, Texas |page=109}}&lt;/ref&gt; As a speculator, he operated stores in Bevilport and on Sabine Pass and owned town lots in Bevil, Jasper, and Belgrade. He died in New Orleans on July 12, 1844. His home in Jasper County has been made a historical landmark. &lt;ref&gt;Robert Wooster, “Everitt, Stephen Hendrickson,” Handbook of Texas Online, accessed January 05, 2021, https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/everitt-stephen-hendrickson. Published by the Texas State Historical Association.&lt;/ref&gt; ==Early Life== On 26 Nov 1806, Stephen Hendrickson Everitt was born at 527 Main Street in Poughkeepsie, New York, to Abigail DeGraaf, age 36, and Richard Everitt, age 57. His birth home today is the home of the New York State Historical Site called the [[Clinton Home]] at 527 Main Street, which is used by the [[Dutchess County Historical Society]]. On 17 Oct 1827, Stephen Hendrickson Everitt married Julia Ann Foster in Brooklyn, New York when he was 20 years old. He had two children, Thomas Peter Everitt and Louisa Rachel Everitt. From 1827 – 1831 Stephen owned and operated a Dry Goods Store on Bowery Street on Long Island, New York.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=New York City directory - 1827-28 |url=https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/item/530238-new-york-city-directory-1827-28?viewer=1&amp;offset=0#page=197&amp;viewer=picture&amp;o=info&amp;n=0&amp;q= |website=United States, New York, New York (City) - Directories |access-date=9 January 2021 |ref=page 197}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last1=Martin |first1=Madeleine |title=More Early Southeast Texas Families |date=January 1, 1978 |publisher=Nortex Press |location=Quanah, Texas 79252 |isbn=0890151989 |page=130 |edition=First}}&lt;/ref&gt; Surrogate Court records in Poughkeepsie state that he went broke and went to Texas to escape debtor’s prison. Stephen abandoned his wife and children with no known divorce found. In 1834 Stephen arrived in Jasper, State of Coahuila, Mexico. In January 1835 Stephen Hendrickson Everitt married Alta Zera Williams in Coahuila de Zaragoza, Mexico, when he was 28 years old. On 28 Feb 1835, Stephen purchased one league of land on Thickety Creek&lt;ref name=&quot;GLO filename: SC, Box 54 Folder 48.&quot;&gt;{{cite web |title=Texas General Land Office Holdings |url=https://www.glo.texas.gov/history/archives/surname-index/files/Land-Grant-E.pdf |website=Entry for Stephen H. Everitt |publisher=The Texas General Land Office |page=277 | access-date=14 January 2021 }}&lt;/ref&gt;, a branch of Cow Creek that runs into the Sabine River near Nacogdoches, State of Coahuila, Mexico. On November 25, 1835 Postmaster John Rice Jones awarded Stephen a contract to carry the mail from Jefferson to San Augustine&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last1=Kemp |first1=L. W. |title=Signers if the Texas Declaration of Independence |date=1959 |publisher=The Anson Jones Press |location=Salado, Texas |page=108-110}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last1=Adams |first1=Willena |title=Fifty-nine for Freedom, the Texas Signers |date=November 1970 |publisher=Graphic Ideas |location=Austin, Texas |page=46}}&lt;/ref&gt;. In 1835 Stephen Hendrickson Everitt lived in Bevil Precinct (west of Jasper). ==Texas Revolution== Stephen was a delegate to the Consultation of 1835 at Columbia from October 16 to 17, 1835, and at San Felipe de Austin from November 1 to 14, 1835. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Biographical Directory of the Texan Conventions and Congresses, 1832–1845 |url=https://www.lrl.texas.gov/scanned/members/bios/Bio_Directory_Texas_Convs_Congresses_1832-1845.pdf |website=Legislative Reference Library |access-date=5 January 2021}},page 14.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;br&gt; On 7 Nov 1835, Stephen signed The [[Consultation (Texas)|Consultation of 1835]] at [[San Felipe]], Austin Colony, State of Coahuila, Mexico. Stephen was a delegate to the Convention of 1836 at Washington from March 1 to 17, 1836. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Biographical Directory of the Texan Conventions and Congresses, 1832–1845 |url=https://www.lrl.texas.gov/scanned/members/bios/Bio_Directory_Texas_Convs_Congresses_1832-1845.pdf |website=Legislative Reference Library |access-date=5 January 2021}},page 16.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;br&gt; On 02 Mar 1836, Stephen signed the [[Texas Declaration of Independence|Declaration of Independence of the Republic of Texas]] at [[Washington-on-the-Brazos, Texas|Washington-on-the-Brazos]], Austin Colony, State of Coahuila, Mexico that “officially created the Republic of Texas”. &lt;br&gt; On 17 Mar 1836, Stephen signed the [[Constitution of the Republic of Texas]] at [[Washington-on-the-Brazos, Texas|Washington-on-the-Brazos]], Republic of Texas. ==Republic of Texas Senator== '''1st Congress of The Republic of Texas''' On 03 Oct 1836 Stephen, who represented the District of Jasper and Jefferson, was elected a Republic of Texas Senator to the 1st Congress. Stephen served as Texas Senator for the Republic of Texas in the 1st Congress at Columbia from October 3, 1836, to December 22, 1836, and at Houston from May 1, 1837, to June 13, 1837. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Biographical Directory of the Texan Conventions and Congresses, 1832–1845 |url=https://www.lrl.texas.gov/scanned/members/bios/Bio_Directory_Texas_Convs_Congresses_1832-1845.pdf |website=Legislative Reference Library |access-date=5 January 2021}},Page 18.&lt;/ref&gt; In 1836 Stephen Hendrickson Everitt lived in Texas City, Texas. On 12 Oct 1836 SH Everitt Notice to Empresarios in the Telegraph and Texas Register Notice to Empresarios from SH Everitt to forward information to the new Republic of Texas government about the land grants that had been issued by them, including numbers and names of families. On 21 Oct 1836 a transcript of a letter from SH Everitt as Chairman of Committee on Public Lands to Stephen F Austin asking for copies of all contracts with Texas colonists. Conforms with the newspaper and Everitt ran a few days before asking the same of all former Mexican impresarios. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=[Transcript of Letter from S. H. Everitt to Stephen F. Austin, October 21, 1836] |url=http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth218017/m1/1/sizes/xl/?q= |website=The Portal to Texas History |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; '''2nd Congress of The Republic of Texas''' On 25 Sep 1837 Stephen, who represented the District of Jasper and Jefferson, was elected a Republic of Texas Senator to the 2nd Congress. Stephen served as Texas Senator for the Republic of Texas in the 2nd Congress at Houston during three time periods of September 25, 1837, to November 4, 1837-Called Session, November 6, 1837, to December 19, 1837-Regular Session and April 9, 1838, to May 24, 1838-Adjourned Session. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Biographical Directory of the Texan Conventions and Congresses, 1832–1845 |url=https://www.lrl.texas.gov/scanned/members/bios/Bio_Directory_Texas_Convs_Congresses_1832-1845.pdf |website=Legislative Reference Library |access-date=5 January 2021}},Page 20.&lt;/ref&gt; Stephen served as President pro tempore. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Biographical Directory of the Texan Conventions and Congresses, 1832–1845 |url=https://www.lrl.texas.gov/scanned/members/bios/Bio_Directory_Texas_Convs_Congresses_1832-1845.pdf |website=Legislative Reference Library |access-date=5 January 2021}},Page 21.&lt;/ref&gt; On 01 Dec 1837 Stephen Everitt wrote an Open Letter to Lamar and others encouraging Mirabeau B. Lamar to replace Sam Houston as president. '''3rd Congress of The Republic of Texas''' On 06 Nov 1838 Stephen, who represented the District of Jasper and Jefferson, was elected a Republic of Texas Senator to the 3rd Congress. Stephen served as Texas Senator for the Republic of Texas in the 3rd Congress at Houston from November 6, 1838, to January 24, 1839. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Biographical Directory of the Texan Conventions and Congresses, 1832–1845 |url=https://www.lrl.texas.gov/scanned/members/bios/Bio_Directory_Texas_Convs_Congresses_1832-1845.pdf |website=Legislative Reference Library |access-date=5 January 2021}},Page 22.&lt;/ref&gt; Stephen served as President pro tempore. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Biographical Directory of the Texan Conventions and Congresses, 1832–1845 |url=https://www.lrl.texas.gov/scanned/members/bios/Bio_Directory_Texas_Convs_Congresses_1832-1845.pdf |website=Legislative Reference Library |access-date=5 January 2021}},Page 23.&lt;/ref&gt; On 25 Jan 1839 at Houston, the Republic of Texas, The Third Texas [[Flag_of_Texas|Flag of the Republic of Texas]] Flag passed the 3rd Texas Congress as the official Republic of Texas Flag and approved by Texas President Mirabeau B. Lamar. '''4th Congress of The Republic of Texas''' On 01 Nov 1839 Stephen, who represented the District of Jasper and Jefferson, was elected a Republic of Texas Senator to the 4th Congress. Stephen served as Texas Senator for the Republic of Texas in the 4th Congress at Austin from November 11, 1839, to February 5, 1840. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Biographical Directory of the Texan Conventions and Congresses, 1832–1845 |url=https://www.lrl.texas.gov/scanned/members/bios/Bio_Directory_Texas_Convs_Congresses_1832-1845.pdf |website=Legislative Reference Library |access-date=5 January 2021}},Page 24.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;br&gt; '''5th Congress of The Republic of Texas''' On 02 Nov 1840 Stephen, who represented the District of Jasper and Jefferson, was elected a Republic of Texas Senator to the 5th Congress. Stephen served as Texas Senator for the Republic of Texas in the 5th Congress at Austin from November 2, 1840, to February 5, 1841. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Biographical Directory of the Texan Conventions and Congresses, 1832–1845 |url=https://www.lrl.texas.gov/scanned/members/bios/Bio_Directory_Texas_Convs_Congresses_1832-1845.pdf |website=Legislative Reference Library |access-date=5 January 2021}},Page 26.&lt;/ref&gt; On 09 Dec 1840 Stephen resigned from the 5th Congress, Republic of Texas Senate. ==Businessman== In 1841 Stephen became a merchant at Bevilport, west of Jasper. With his Bevilport business thriving, from 1842-1844 Stephen laid out the City of the Pass, near present-day [[Sabine Pass, Port Arthur, Texas|Sabine Pass]]. There he conducted an export-import business. He was engaged in expanding his facilities by building wharves and warehouses on Doom Island (now underwater in Sabine Lake about 1800 feet SW of Stewts Island)&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Doom Island |url=https://www.google.com/maps/place/29%C2%B057'58.9%22N+93%C2%B050'58.3%22W/@29.9663706,-93.8517057,646m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x863eaee0d287bccb:0xfe9780ab7dc5de2a!2sStewts+Island!3b1!8m2!3d29.9699355!4d-93.8471136!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d29.9663657!4d-93.8495169 |website=Google Maps |publisher=Google |access-date=10 January 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; at the mouth of the Neches River near the City of Pass. On 31 Aug 1843 Dr. Everitt in New York City, deeded half of his extensive real estate properties in Texas to brother James Carr Everitt of New York City to resolve his prior debts. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last1=Martin |first1=Madeleine |title=More Early Southeast Texas Families |date=January 1, 1978 |publisher=Nortex Press |location=Quanah, Texas 79252 |isbn=0890151989 |page=131 |edition=First}}&lt;/ref&gt; On 11 Jul 1844, Stephen took a business trip to New Orleans and stayed in the [[St. Charles Hotel, New Orleans|St. Charles Hotel]], 215 St. Charles at New Orleans, Orleans, Louisiana, USA. The St. Charles hotel burned down many times over the years. ==Death and Probated Will== '''Death.''' On July 12, 1844, Stephen Hendrickson Everitt died in New Orleans, Louisiana, when he was 37 years old. Stephen was found dead on 12 Jul 1844 at 1:00 PM in the St. Charles Hotel from [[Yellow fever|yellow fever]] as reported in obituaries published in the New Orleans Picayune newspaper on 13 Jul 1844 and in The New Orleans Bee newspaper on 13 Jul 1844.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last1=Martin |first1=Madeleine |title=More Early Southeast Texas Families |date=January 1, 1978 |publisher=Nortex Press |location=Quanah, Texas 79252 |isbn=0890151989 |page=132 |edition=First}}&lt;/ref&gt; '''Buried.''' On 14 Jul 1844 Stephen was buried at Girod Street Cemetery&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last1=Huber |first1=Leonard Victor |title=To glorious immortality: the rise and fall of the Girod Street Cemetery, New Orleans' first Protestant Cemetery, 1822-1957 |date=January 1, 1961 |publisher=Alblen Books |location=New Orleans, Louisiana |edition=First}}&lt;/ref&gt;; now defunct. It was located between 1450 Girod Street and 1450 Poydras Street; near the present-day Champions Square Parking Garage just outside the Superdome. '''Probated Will.''' Stephen H. Everitt's will took 12 years to probate from 1844 to 1856. On 03 Aug 1844 SH Everitt’s estate was inventoried in New Orleans, Orleans, Louisiana, US. On 05 Aug 1844 an accounting of everything in the possession of SH Everitt when he unexpectedly died in a New Orleans hotel. A leather trunk of clothing, an umbrella, a gold watch, a US Treasury Note for $100, various letters, a deed for a Mexican land grant, and partnership papers with Z. William Eddy, who worked for Everitt at his dry goods store in Texas and who was the executor of Everitt's estate in Texas. On 10 Sep 1844, Z. William Eddy of New York City, New York was the administrator of Mr. Everitt's estate. On 25 Nov 1856 Stephen H Everitt’s Will was finally probated at Jasper, Jasper, Texas, US. The estate was divided between the following heirs of Mr. (Peter) Everitt: Louisa R. Broad, William Hendrickson Everitt, Sarah Ann Everitt, and James C. Everitt. (Book L, pp 69- 70, Deed Records of Jefferson County). '''State of Texas Centennial Marker.''' On 02 March 1936 a State of Texas Centennial Marker was erected for Stephen H. Everitt on the west side of FM1747 near Jasper, Texas.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Dr. Stephen H. Everitt — Jasper County |url=https://atlas.thc.texas.gov/Details/5241010444 |website=Texas Historical Sites Atlas |publisher=Texas Historical Commission |access-date=9 January 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; '''Reinterment.''' In 1957 Stephen H Everitt’s remains were reinterred at St. John Cemetery (Hope Mausoleum), 4841 Canal Street, New Orleans, Orleans, Louisiana, USA (was buried in Girod Cemetery, now defunct). ==References==</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lee_Lightfoot_Rhodes&diff=1259225897</id> <title>Lee Lightfoot Rhodes</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lee_Lightfoot_Rhodes&diff=1259225897"/> <updated>2024-11-24T01:36:12Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{orphan|date=November 2024}} {{Short description|Texas politician, career as a populist and later socialist candidate for statewide office}} {{Infobox officeholder | name = Lee Lightfoot Rhodes | image = | state_house1 = Texas | district1 = [[Texas's 100th House of Representatives district|100th]] | term_start1 = January 8, 1895 | term_end1 = January 12, 1897 | predecessor1 = John Thomas Currey | successor1 = John Thomas Currey&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://lrl.texas.gov/legeLeaders/members/membersearch.cfm|title=John Thomas Currey|access-date=November 22, 2024|website=Legislative Reference Library of Texas}}&lt;/ref&gt; | birth_date = {{birth date|1864|3|6}} | birth_place = [[Panola County, Mississippi]], C.S.A. | death_date = {{death date and age|1936|12|17|1864|12|25}} | death_place = [[Van Zandt County, Texas]], U.S. | party = [[Socialist Party of America|Socialist]] | otherparty = [[Union Labor Party|Union Labor]] (1888 - 1891)&lt;br/&gt;[[People's Party (United States)|Populist]] (1891-?)&lt;br/&gt;[[Progressive Party (United States, 1924-1934)|Progressive]] (1924)&lt;br/&gt;[[Democratic Party (United States)|Democratic]] (1932-1936) | spouse = Jennie Presley | children = 5 }} '''Lee Lightfoot Rhodes''' (March 6, 1864 – December 17, 1936) was an American politician who was influential in the [[Texas]] state [[Socialist Party of America|socialist party]] from it's inception until his death in 1936, he served in the [[Texas House of Representatives]] from 1895 to 1897 as a [[People's Party (United States)|Populist]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://lrl.texas.gov/legeLeaders/members/memberDisplay.cfm?memberID=3570|title=Lee Lightfoot Rhodes|access-date=November 19, 2024|website=Legislative Reference Library of Texas}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Early life== Rhodes was born on March 6, 1864, in [[Panola County, Mississippi]], the son of John C. H. Rhodes and J. A. F. Rhodes, he was one of eight children. His family migrated to [[Van Zandt County, Texas]] in the early 1870s, where he married Jennie Presley and fathered four daughters and a son. ==Early political career== Rhodes political career began in the late 1880s when he joined the [[Union Labor Party]] and attended the first of many conventions which aimed to create the [[Texas State Federation of Labor]], where he served on the executive committee. Rhodes first sought elective office in 1890, when he ran a failed campaign for state senator under the Union Labor Party for [[Texas Senate, District 7|senate district 7]] which included his home county of Van Zandt. Despite being endorsed by the local Republican party, Rhodes lost this election handily, and this marked the beginning of his lifelong opposition to the two party system, especially the democratic party. In 1891 Rhodes joined the [[People's Party (United States)|Populist party]], he stated that the Democrats and Republicans could not represent the will of the people and claimed that the Democratic party “locates the head of its national ticket in Wall street and the tail in the west” and the republicans “puts [their] head in the west and [their] tail in Wall street.” He became an active member of the party, and attended the 1892 national convention as a delegate. In 1894 Rhodes defeated incumbent John T. Currey by a margin of 2,022 votes to 1,349 to become the state representative for the [[Texas's 100th House of Representatives district|100th district]], which comprised of Van Zandt County. In the twenty-fourth legislature he served on four committees; Agricultural Affairs, Mining and Minerals, and Private Land Claims. He also proposed four bills during his term, but like many Populist efforts in the state legislature, none of the bills were passed. Rhodes’s time as legislator defined his ideology as a advocate of farmers and laborers. In 1896 he was defeated for re-election by John T. Currey (the man he had beaten two years earlier) and withdrew from the political scene for the remainder of the 1890s. ==Socialist politician== At the turn of the century, as the peoples party began to disintegrate, he joined many former populists and his brother Jake in the newly formed [[Socialist Party of America|Social Democratic Party]] (later renamed the Socialist Party). His experience, likeability, and wit served him well and earned him the respect of his colleagues. During this time he also became heavily involved in the Texas Farmers Union and organized new chapters across the state giving stump speeches for the party, which included guests like [[Eugene V. Debs]] and attended the Socialist national convention. However, with the onset of [[World War I]] his stepped away from the politics as the parties anti-war stances were widely unpopular. In [[1920 Texas gubernatorial election|1920]] he returned on the scene as the Socialist candidate for [[Lieutenant Governor of Texas|lieutenant governor]], but he was elevated to nominee for [[Governor of Texas|governor]] when the previous nominee dropped out before election day. After losing the election, the statewide socialist party did not run another ticket until 1926. During this time Rhodes briefly jumped ship and joined the [[Progressive Party (United States, 1924-1934)|progressive party]] to serve as an elector for [[Robert M. La Follette]]. After the election he joined a failed attempt to form a &quot;Texas Labor Party&quot; in 1926 before returning to the socialist party in 1928. In [[1928 Texas gubernatorial election|1928]] and [[1930 Texas gubernatorial election|1930]] Rhodes was the gubernatorial candidate for the socialist party but posted historically bad returns even for the socialist party (787 and 829 votes statewide respectively). In 1932 Rhodes, spurred on by the pro-union and [[New Deal]] policies of [[Franklin Delano Roosevelt|F.D.R.]] joined the [[Democratic Party (United States)|Democratic party]] in order to run in the parties primary for state representative from Van Zandt county once again, but failed to win the nomination. ==Death== Lee Rhodes died on December 17, 1936, of an acute intestinal blockage at the age of 71.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/rhodes-lee-lightfoot|title=Rhodes, Lee Lightfoot|access-date=November 22, 2024|website=tshaonline.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==References== {{reflist}} {{S-start}} {{s-ppo}} {{s-bef|before=-}} {{s-ttl|title=[[Socialist Party (United States)|Socialist]] nominee for [[Governor of Texas]]|years=[[1920 Texas gubernatorial election|1920]], [[1928 Texas gubernatorial election|1928]], [[1930 Texas gubernatorial election|1930]]}} {{s-aft|after=-}} {{s-off}} {{S-par|us-tx-hs}} {{TXHouseSuccession box | district = 100 | hometown = Van Zandt County | before = John T. Currey | after = John T. Currey | years = 1895–1897 }} {{S-end}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Rhodes, Lee Lightfoot}} [[Category:1864 births]] [[Category:1936 deaths]] [[Category:People from Panola County, Mississippi]] [[Category:People from Van Zandt County, Texas]] [[Category:Texas socialists]] [[Category:Texas Populists]] [[Category:Members of the Texas House of Representatives]] {{US-politician-stub}}</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_H._Griffith&diff=1259225446</id> <title>John H. Griffith</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_H._Griffith&diff=1259225446"/> <updated>2024-11-24T01:33:25Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm per WP:ELPEREN <hr /> <div>[[Image:John Griffith X-1.jpg|thumb|John Griffith leaning out the hatch of the X-1 #2]] '''John H. Griffith''' was a [[test pilot]] for the [[National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics]], one of the pilots of the [[Bell X-1]]. Griffith grew up in [[Homewood, Illinois]]. He joined the [[United States Army Air Corps]] in November 1941, and served in the [[South West Pacific Area|South Pacific]] during [[World War II]]. He flew 189 missions in the [[Curtiss P-40]] fighter and was awarded two [[Distinguished Flying Cross (United States)|Distinguished Flying Cross]]es and four [[Air Medal]]s.&lt;ref name=Death&gt;{{Cite web|url=http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/Features/griffith.html|title=Retired NACA research pilot John Griffith Dies|author=NASA Dryden Flight Research Center|accessdate=February 3, 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; Following the war, he attended [[Purdue University]], studying [[Aerospace engineering|aeronautical engineering]]. He then joined the NACA's [[Glenn Research Center|Lewis Flight Propulsion Laboratory]]. At Lewis he was involved in tests of [[ramjet]] aircraft. In August, 1949, Griffith became a research pilot at the [[Dryden Flight Research Center|Muroc Flight Test Unit]] (now Dryden Flight Research Center). He flew the experimental aircraft the Bell X-1 (nine flights), [[X-4 Bantam]] (three flights), [[Douglas Skystreak]] (fifteen flights), and [[Douglas Skyrocket]] (nine flights). On May 26, 1950, he piloted the X-1 #2 to its highest speed of Mach 1.20.&lt;ref name=DrydenSummary&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/history/HistoricAircraft/X-1/fltsummary.html|title=Dryden History - Historic Aircraft - X-1 Flight Summary|author=NASA Dryden Flight Research Center|accessdate=February 3, 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; He was the first NACA pilot to fly the X-4.&lt;ref name=Death/&gt; Griffith left the NACA in 1950 to fly for private companies &amp;mdash; [[Vought|Chance Vought]], [[United Airlines]], and for [[Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems|Westinghouse]]. At Vought, in 1951, he was the Senior Experimental Pilot on the [[F7U Cutlass]]. At Westinghouse, he became the Chief Engineering Test Pilot. He later worked for the [[Federal Aviation Administration]], assisting in the development of a never-completed [[supersonic transport]] plane. He subsequently returned to United Airlines as a flight instructor, until retiring to [[Penn Valley, California]].&lt;ref name=Death/&gt; Griffith is one of the 2006 inductees into the [[Lancaster, California]] [[Aerospace Walk of Honor]] John H. Griffith died October 21, 2011, at the Sierra Nevada Memorial Hospital, Grass Valley, California, from pneumonia and a dissected aorta. He was 90 years old.&lt;ref name=Death/&gt; ==References== {{Reflist}} ==External links== {{Portal|Biography}} *{{cite web|url=http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/Biographies/Pilots/bd-dfrc-p036.html|title=Research pilot John Griffith|author=NASA Dryden Flight Research Center|accessdate=September 22, 2009}} *{{cite web|url=http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/history/HistoricAircraft/X-1/fltsummary.html|title=Dryden History - Historic Aircraft - X-1 Flight Summary|author=NASA Dryden Flight Research Center|accessdate=February 3, 2012}} *[http://www.theunion.com/article/20111027/OBITUARIES/111029824&amp;parentprofile=search The Union - Obituary]{{Dead link|date=November 2024 |bot=InternetArchiveBot |fix-attempted=yes }} *''City of Lancaster Outlook'', August 2006. {{DEFAULTSORT:Griffith, John H.}} [[Category:1910s births]] [[Category:2011 deaths]] [[Category:Recipients of the Distinguished Flying Cross (United States)]] [[Category:American people of Welsh descent]] [[Category:American test pilots]] [[Category:United States Army Air Forces pilots of World War II]] [[Category:United States Army Air Forces officers]] [[Category:Recipients of the Air Medal]] [[Category:People from Homewood, Illinois]] [[Category:Purdue University School of Aeronautics and Astronautics alumni]] [[Category:Military personnel from Illinois]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeremy_Clyde&diff=1259224621</id> <title>Jeremy Clyde</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeremy_Clyde&diff=1259224621"/> <updated>2024-11-24T01:27:15Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rm non-RS <hr /> <div>{{Short description|English actor and musician (born 1941)}} {{Use dmy dates|date=December 2014}} {{Infobox person | name = Jeremy Clyde | image = Patty_Duke_Jeremy_Clyde_Patty_Duke_Show_1965.JPG | caption = [[Patty Duke]] and Jeremy Clyde in&lt;br /&gt;''The Patty Duke Show'' (1965) | birth_name = Michael Jeremy Thomas Clyde | birth_date = {{Birth date and age|df=y|1941|3|22}} | birth_place = [[Dorney]], Buckinghamshire, England | occupation = Actor, musician | alma_mater = [[Royal Central School of Speech and Drama]] | years_active = 1953–present | death_date = | death_place = | spouse = {{marriage|Vanessa Field|1970||end=divorced}} | children = 2 | father = [[Thomas Clyde (film producer)|Thomas Clyde]] | mother = [[Lady Elizabeth Clyde]] | relatives = [[Gerald Wellesley, 7th Duke of Wellington]] (grandfather)&lt;br /&gt;[[William P. Clyde]] (great-grandfather) }} '''Michael Jeremy Thomas Clyde''' (born 22 March 1941) is an English actor and musician. During the 1960s, he was one-half of the folk duo [[Chad &amp; Jeremy]] (with [[Chad Stuart]]). Their first song was the 1963 hit &quot;[[Yesterday's Gone (song)|Yesterday’s Gone]]&quot;. The duo became more successful in America than in their native country. Clyde has enjoyed a long television acting career, often playing upper-middle class or aristocratic characters.&lt;ref name=allmovie /&gt; ==Early life== Clyde was born in the village of [[Dorney]] in the English county of [[Buckinghamshire]] and is the son of [[Elizabeth Clyde|Lady Elizabeth Wellesley]] and her then-husband [[Thomas Clyde (film producer)|Thomas Clyde]]. Through his maternal line, Clyde is the great-great-great-grandson of [[Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington]], and is a cousin of the current [[Duke of Wellington (title)|Duke of Wellington]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|title=Vogue|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=7NojAQAAMAAJ|date=October 1970|publisher=Condé Nast Publications|page=67}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|first1=Mark|last1=Bence-Jones|first2=Hugh|last2=Montgomery-Massingberd|title=The British aristocracy|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=hHFnAAAAMAAJ|year=1979|publisher=Constable|page=233|isbn=9780094617803 }}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1953, he participated in the [[coronation of Queen Elizabeth II]] as a [[Page of Honour]] for his grandfather and carried his grandfather's [[coronet]] during the ceremony.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2013/jan/29/chad-and-jeremy-the-ark|title=Hidden treasures: Chad and Jeremy – The Ark|date=29 January 2013|first=Alexis|last=Petridis|website=The Guardian|access-date=16 October 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; Clyde was educated at two independent schools, [[Ludgrove School|Ludgrove]] and [[Eton College|Eton]],&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1970/11/22/archives/two-rock-stars-roll-on-broadway.html|title=Two Rock Stars Roll on Broadway|date=22 November 1970|first=Judy|last=Klemesrud|website=New York Times|access-date=16 October 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; and then at the [[University of Grenoble]].&lt;ref name=allmovie /&gt; ==Television== In 1970, he played Teddy, the prospective buyer of a haunted house, in the 'Suspicious Ignorance' episode of ''[[Tales of Unease]]'', alongside [[Tessa Wyatt]]. Clyde once guest-starred in an episode of the American sitcom ''[[My Three Sons]]'' (season 8 episode 7, &quot;Liverpool Saga&quot;), when Chip Douglas is introduced to their neighbor's cousin, Paul Drayton, as a well known folk guitarist in Britain, excited that someone from [[Liverpool]] was coming to visit and expecting him to be a talented musician (implying the success of [[the Beatles]];&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/my-three-sons/episode-16-season-8/liverpool-saga/100316|title=My Three Sons &amp;#124; TV Guide|website=TVGuide.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; the episode aired during the height of [[Beatlemania]]). He appeared in the [[BBC TV]] adaptation of ''[[Moll Flanders (TV series)|Moll Flanders]]'' in 1975. In 1979, he played [[Godfried Schalcken]] in the BBC's television horror story ''[[Schalcken the Painter]]''.&lt;ref name=bfi /&gt; In the late 1970s he appeared alongside [[Lorraine Chase]] in a series of television advertisements for [[Campari]]. He is perhaps best known for his portrayal of villainous Austrian Imperial Governor Hermann Gessler, in the action series ''[[Crossbow (TV series)|Crossbow]]'' (1987–1989), which incorporated Clyde's ability to convey evil in a distinctly aristocratic way.&lt;ref name=allmovie&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.allmovie.com/artist/jeremy-clyde-p13771|title=Jeremy Clyde &amp;#124; Biography, Movie Highlights and Photos|website=AllMovie}}&lt;/ref&gt; His other notable acting role was as Dick Spackman in the [[ITV (TV network)|ITV]] sitcom ''[[Is it Legal?]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.comedy.co.uk/tv/is_it_legal/cast_crew/|title=Is It Legal? cast and crew credits|first=British Comedy|last=Guide|website=British Comedy Guide}}&lt;/ref&gt; Clyde also portrayed [[Charles I of England|King Charles I]] in the BBC series ''[[By the Sword Divided]]'' (1983–85), which depicted the English Civil War.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |first=John |last=Derbyshire |url=https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/re-sword-divided-john-derbyshire/|title=Re: by The Sword Divided |date=17 July 2004 |website=National Review}}&lt;/ref&gt; Clyde also starred as Algernon Moncrieff in 1985 in the ''[[Great Performances]]'' production of [[Oscar Wilde]]'s ''[[The Importance of Being Earnest]]'', opposite [[Gary Bond]] as Jack Worthing and [[Dame Wendy Hiller]] as Lady Bracknell.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1985-12-25-ca-21306-story.html|title=TV Review: An 'Earnest' Comedy Of Rich Wit And Manners |date=25 December 1985 |website=Los Angeles Times}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the same year, he played the civil servant Densher in ''[[Blott on the Landscape (TV series)|Blott on the Landscape]]''.&lt;ref name=bfi /&gt; In 2002, Clyde appeared in ''[[The Falklands Play]]'' (a BBC dramatisation of the [[Falklands War]]) as Sir [[Nicholas Henderson]], the British ambassador to the United States at the time.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |url=http://www.screenonline.org.uk/tv/id/1205530/credits.html |work=BFI Screenonline |title= Falklands Play, The (2002) |publisher=BFI}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2004, he appeared in the BBC drama series ''[[The Alan Clark Diaries]]'' as [[Conservative Party (UK)|British Conservative]] politician [[Jonathan Aitken]], and also appeared in the BBC drama series ''[[Ashes to Ashes (British TV series)|Ashes To Ashes]]'' as the Superintendent, which was aired in 2008.&lt;ref&gt;[https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0074py6 The Alan Clark Diaries: Foreign Parts] BBC&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=bfi /&gt; ==Radio== He has also acted on the radio, portraying the gentleman thief [[A. J. Raffles]] in the BBC radio series ''[[Raffles (radio series)|Raffles]]'' (1985–1993).&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/90ce8349d6664774a74c367d802658e2|title=Raffles|date=27 November 1985|issue=3236|pages=75|via=BBC Genome}}&lt;/ref&gt; He has also portrayed [[Ngaio Marsh|Ngaio Marsh's]] fictional detective [[Inspector Alleyn|Inspector Roderick Alleyn]]. ==Theatre== In 1965, Clyde appeared in a stage production of ''[[The Passion Flower Hotel]]'', a musical adaptation written by [[John Barry (composer)|John Barry]] and [[Trevor Peacock]], at the [[Prince of Wales Theatre]] in London. It also featured [[Jane Birkin]], [[Francesca Annis]], [[Pauline Collins]], [[Nicky Henson]], and [[Bill Kenwright]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://theatricalia.com/play/faq/passion-flower-hotel/production/zs6|title=Production of Passion Flower Hotel &amp;#124; Theatricalia|website=theatricalia.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1969, he appeared in ''[[Conduct Unbecoming (play)|Conduct Unbecoming]]'' as part of the original cast, which included [[Paul Jones (singer)|Paul Jones]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://theatricalia.com/play/4qw/conduct-unbecoming/production/vpm|title=Production of Conduct Unbecoming &amp;#124; Theatricalia|website=theatricalia.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; He also travelled to the US as part of the original Broadway cast.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.ibdb.com/broadway-cast-staff/jeremy-clyde-98996|title=Jeremy Clyde – Broadway Cast &amp; Staff &amp;#124; IBDB|website=www.ibdb.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2011, Clyde played Lord Halifax in ''[https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/three-days-in-may-ben-brown/1106777983?ean=9780571283002 Three Days in May]'' at Trafalgar Studios in London. The play, which featured actor [[Warren Clarke]] as [[Winston Churchill|Prime Minister Winston Churchill]], was set during May 1940, at a point in WWII when the idea of negotiating peace with Hitler was being floated around.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Billington |first=Michael |date=2011-11-03 |title=Three Days in May – review |url=https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2011/nov/03/three-days-in-may-review |access-date=2024-11-24 |work=The Guardian |language=en-GB |issn=0261-3077}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2017 he played Dennis in ''[[The Girls (musical)|The Girls]]'' at the [[Phoenix Theatre (London)|Phoenix Theatre]] in the [[West End Theatre|West End]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |first=Douglas |last=Mayo|url=https://britishtheatre.com/review-the-girls-phoenix-theatre/ |title=Review: The Girls, Phoenix Theatre|date=23 February 2017 }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Other performances== He also played in'' [[The Iron Lady (film)|The Iron Lady]]'', in (2011).&lt;ref name=bfi&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b9f71326d|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180210230222/http://www.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b9f71326d|url-status=dead|archive-date=10 February 2018|title=Jeremy Clyde |website=BFI}}&lt;/ref&gt; Since 2018, Clyde has been performing with [[Peter Asher]] of [[Peter &amp; Gordon]] fame.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.centerline.news/single-post/2018/08/03/Superduo-of-British-Invasion-legends-Peter-Asher-and-Jeremy-Clyde-comes-to-City-Winery|title='Superduo' of British Invasion legends Peter Asher and Jeremy Clyde comes to City Winery|website=Centerline.news|access-date=20 May 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Personal life== Clyde is the oldest of three sons born to [[Lady Elizabeth Clyde]] and Captain [[Thomas Clyde (film producer)|Thomas Clyde]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|last=Wellesley|first=Jane|title=Wellington: A Journey Through My Family|publisher=Weidenfeld &amp; Nicolson|year=2008|isbn=978-0-297-85231-5|location=London|pages=68}}&lt;/ref&gt; Clyde is divorced from Vanessa Field, whom he married in 1970 at Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church in New York City.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last=Suzy|first=Knickerbocker|title=New York: The Beautiful People Move to Greener Pastures|date=3 January 1971|work=San Antonio Light}}&lt;/ref&gt; They have two children. ==Partial filmography== *''[[The Dick Van Dyke Show]]'' (&quot;The Redcoats Are Coming&quot;) (1965) – Freddy *''[[The Patty Duke Show]]'' (&quot;Patty Pits Wits, Two Brits Hits&quot;) (1965) – Nigel *''[[Batman (TV series)|Batman]]'' (&quot;The Bat's Kow Tow&quot;) (1966) – himself *''[[The Great St Trinian's Train Robbery]]'' (1966) – Monty *''[[Laredo (TV series)|Laredo]]'' (“That’s Noway, Thataway“) (1966) – Newton Weeks *''[[My Three Sons]]'' (&quot;Liverpool Saga&quot;) (1967) – Paul Drayton *''[[The Felony Squad]]'' (&quot;Kiss Me Kill You&quot;) (1968) - Tony Sloan *''[[Doctor Watson and the Darkwater Hall Mystery]]'' (1974) – Miles *''[[The Pallisers]]'' (1974) – Gerard Maule * [[The Flight Fund]] (1975) - Tony *''[[Silver Bears (film)|Silver Bears]]'' (1977) – Nick Topping *''[[Raffles (TV series)|Raffles]]'' (1977) – Alick Carruthers *''[[The Duchess of Duke Street]]'' (&quot;The Patriots&quot;) (1977) – Mr Appleby *''[[Sexton Blake and the Demon God]]'' (1978) - [[Sexton Blake]] *''[[North Sea Hijack]]'' (1979) – Tipping *''[[Charles &amp; Diana: A Royal Love Story]]'' (1982) – [[Andrew Parker Bowles]] *[[The Golden Ball and Other Stories|Magnolia Blossom]] (1982) Richard Darrell *''[[Invitation to the Wedding]]'' (1983) – Teddy Barrington *''[[Bergerac (TV series)|Bergerac]]'' (1986) Series 5, Episode 1: “Memory Man” – Smythe *''[[Wilt (film)|Wilt]]'' (1990) – Hugh *''[[Splitting Heirs]]'' (1993) – 14th Duke *''Kaspar Hauser'' (1993) – Lord Stanhope *''[[Is It Legal]]'' (1995-1996) 14 episodes - Dick Spackman &lt;ref IMDb Is it Legal - full cast and crew≥ *''The Moth'' (1997) – Reginald Thorman *''[[Midsomer Murders]]'' (1999) – Bill Mitchell - Strangler’s Wood *''Bodywork'' (2001) – Boss *''[[The Musketeer]]'' (2001) – [[George Villiers, 1st Duke of Buckingham|Duke of Buckingham]] *''[[Mangal Pandey: The Rising]]'' (2005) – Maj.-Gen. [[John Hearsey]] *''[[The Iron Lady (film)|The Iron Lady]]'' (2011) – James T *''[[Downton Abbey]]'' (2011) – General Robertson *''Candle to Water'' (2012) – Boothy ==References== {{Reflist}} ==External links== * {{IMDb name|167403|Jeremy Clyde}} *[http://www.chadandjeremy.net/cj/history.htm Official site of Chad Stuart &amp; Jeremy Clyde / History] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160304001238/http://www.chadandjeremy.net/cj/history.htm |date=4 March 2016 }} {{Chad &amp; Jeremy}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Clyde, Jeremy}} [[Category:1941 births]] [[Category:Actors from South Bucks District]] [[Category:Alumni of the Royal Central School of Speech and Drama]] [[Category:English folk musicians]] [[Category:English male singer-songwriters]] [[Category:English singer-songwriters]] [[Category:English male television actors]] [[Category:Grenoble Alpes University alumni]] [[Category:Living people]] [[Category:Male actors from Buckinghamshire]] [[Category:People educated at Ludgrove School]] [[Category:People educated at Eton College]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bethel_College_(Kansas)&diff=1259222712</id> <title>Bethel College (Kansas)</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bethel_College_(Kansas)&diff=1259222712"/> <updated>2024-11-24T01:12:38Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: ce <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Christian college in North Newton, Kansas, US}} {{For|other institutions of this name|Bethel College (disambiguation)}} {{Use mdy dates|date=December 2014}} {{Infobox university |name = Bethel College |image = Bethel (Kansas) College logo.svg |image_size = 200 |caption = |type = [[Private college]] |established = {{Start date and age|1887}} |affiliation = |religious_affiliation = [[Mennonite Church USA]] |academic_affiliation = |endowment = $30 Million |president = Jon Gering&lt;ref name=&quot;Bethel-Admin&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |url= https://www.bethelks.edu/employee/view/213|title=Administration; Bethel College.}}&lt;/ref&gt; |academic_staff = 60 |students = 500 |city = [[North Newton, Kansas|North Newton]] |state = Kansas |country = United States&lt;ref name=&quot;GNIS&quot;&gt;[http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=gnispq:3:::NO::P3_FID:482719 Geographic Names Information System (GNIS) details for Bethel College; United States Geological Survey (USGS); October 13, 1978.]&lt;/ref&gt; |coor = {{Coord|38.0747|-97.3425|region:US-KS_type:edu_source:GNIS|format=dms|display=inline,title}} |campus = [[Rural area|Rural]], {{Convert|90|acre|ha}} |colors = Maroon and gray&lt;ref&gt;{{cite manual |url=https://www.bethelks.edu/sites/default/files/2020-03/Attachment%205B%20-%20BC%20Style%20Guide.pdf |title=Bethel College Style Guide |date=July 1, 2020 |access-date=August 29, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;br /&gt;{{college color boxes|Bethel Threshers}} |sports_nickname = [[Threshing stone|Threshers]] |athletics_affiliations = [[National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics|NAIA]] – [[Kansas Collegiate Athletic Conference|KCAC]] |mascot = Thresher |website = {{URL|www.bethelks.edu}} }} [[Image:bethel-krehbiel.jpg|thumb|Krehbiel Science Center, 2007]] '''Bethel College''' is a [[Private college|private]] Christian college in [[North Newton, Kansas]], United States. It is affiliated with [[Mennonite Church USA]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Bethel-About&quot;/&gt; ==History== Bethel College, founded in 1887, is the oldest Mennonite college in North America.&lt;ref name=&quot;Bethel-About&quot;&gt;{{cite web |title=About |url=https://www.bethelks.edu/about |website=Bethel College |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230520052226/https://www.bethelks.edu/about |archive-date=May 20, 2023 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Bethel College became the second institution of higher learning associated with the [[General Conference Mennonite Church]] (now Mennonite Church USA), replacing [[Wadsworth Institute]] in Ohio, which had closed in 1878.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.bethelks.edu/why-bethel/location/campus-map/#!ad_building Administration Building page] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20141207074854/http://www.bethelks.edu/why-bethel/location/campus-map/#!ad_building |date=December 7, 2014 }} of the Bethel College website.&lt;/ref&gt; During the 1880s, Kansas cities and towns competed with one another to create and construct institutions and buildings, including colleges. On May 11, 1887, representatives of Newton and the Kansas Conference of Mennonites signed a charter for Bethel College to be built on a plot of about {{convert|120|acre|km2}} north of the town of Newton. Around 2,500 people gathered on the property on October 12, 1888, to lay the cornerstone of the main building, which serves as the current Administration Building and has been on the [[National Register of Historic Places]] since 1972.{{Citation needed|date=March 2018}} The building project took around five years to complete. Fundraising was slow, but on September 20, 1893, a service of dedication opened the building, and classes began.{{Citation needed|date=March 2018}} Cornelius H. Wedel, a young teacher from Halstead, Kan., was the college's first president. There were 98 students – 77 men and 21 women ages 13 to mid-30s – living on the west end of the main floor and the ground floor of the Ad Building, while Wedel and his family lived on the east end of the main floor. The classrooms, chapel and library of 600 volumes were located on the second floor. In those days, students were up by 5 a.m. and in bed by 10 p.m. Each worked two hours a day at a campus job. Student conduct was strictly monitored. Men and women were not allowed to be in the library on the same evening, so they alternated evenings. Five men, including President Wedel, made up the first faculty. They taught classes in Bible, church history, German, [[English studies|English]], mathematics, science and music. Bethel was a bilingual college until early 1918, when the United States entered [[World War I]]. German was removed from the curriculum, but later reinstated and remained as a major until 2006, when it switched to a minor.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Bethel College German Language|url=http://www.bethelks.edu/academics/areas/german/|publisher=Bethel College|access-date=2012-03-17|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120316021136/http://bethelks.edu/academics/areas/german/|archive-date=March 16, 2012|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Campus facilities== {{Infobox NRHP | name = Bethel College Administration Building | nrhp_type = | image = bethel-administration.jpg | caption = Bethel College Administration Building | location = Bethel College campus, [[North Newton, Kansas]] | built = 1887 | architect = Proudfoot, Willis T. | architecture = Romanesque | added = March 16, 1972 | area = {{convert|1.5|acre}} | refnum = 72000505&lt;ref name=&quot;nris&quot;&gt;{{NRISref|version=2010a}}&lt;/ref&gt; }} The Ad Building was the main campus structure until 1925, when Science Hall was completed. The cornerstone for Memorial Hall was laid in 1938 to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the laying of the Ad Building cornerstone. &quot;Mem Hall&quot; was completed in 1942. Various other buildings have come and gone since the Ad Building went up, but of those still remaining, the next to be built after Mem Hall was the current Franz Art Center, in 1947 – originally the general shop, home of the industrial arts department and the shop for the Bethel College farm, and now the home of the Department of Visual Arts and Design. The library finally moved into its own building in 1952 – today this is the [[Mennonite Church USA Archives|Mennonite Library and Archives]]. Bethel College Mennonite Church, founded in 1897, met in the Ad Building chapel for almost 60 years, until its current building south of the main campus was completed in 1956. The 1960s and 1970s saw a building boom on the Bethel campus, beginning in 1958 with construction of Haury Hall as a student residence, with a major addition in 1963. Warkentin Court (student residence) and the Fine Arts Center were both completed in 1966, Thresher Gym in 1978 and Schultz Student Center and cafeteria in 1979. In 1986, Mantz Library was built on to the old library, and Kauffman Museum got its current building. The newest buildings on campus are Voth Hall (student residence; 2000) and Krehbiel Science Center (2002); the newest structure is Thresher Stadium in the Thresher Sports Complex (2005). The old Science Hall underwent a multi-million-dollar renovation – completed in 2012, including a major addition on the east side – into the James A. Will Family Academic Center. Luyken Fine Arts Center includes Krehbiel Auditorium, and the Prairie Sky Stage outdoors, for stage performances, lectures and events, and the Robert W. Regier Art Gallery, which hosts exhibits by local, regional, national and international artists, including Bethel alumni, in all types of media. It houses the music, drama and communication arts departments. == Organization and administration == Jon C. Gering, Ph.D., was inaugurated as Bethel's 15th president on October 7, 2018, and appointed to a second term in July 2021. == Academics == Bethel's curriculum is founded on a general education program in the liberal arts and [[sciences]], and is geared toward students of moderate to high academic ability. There are requirements for the study of religion, and a cross-cultural experience.{{Clarify|date=May 2017}} The college offers majors in the traditional liberal arts disciplines and selected career areas – with the newest majors being software development, and biochemistry and molecular biology – and accredited professional programs in [[nursing]], [[social work]] and teacher education.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.bethelks.edu/ Official Bethel Website]&lt;/ref&gt; [[Image:bethel-voth.jpg|thumb|Voth Hall, student housing, 2007]] == Athletics == {{Main|Bethel Threshers}} The Bethel athletic teams are called the Threshers. The college is a member of the [[National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics]] (NAIA), primarily competing in the [[Kansas Collegiate Athletic Conference]] (KCAC) since the 1939–40 academic year; which they were a member on a previous stint from 1902–03 to December 1928 (of the 1928–29 school year). Bethel competes in 17 intercollegiate varsity sports: Men's sports include basketball, cross country, football, golf, soccer, tennis and track and field; while women's sports include basketball, cross country, flag football (added in fall 2022), soccer, softball, tennis, track and field and volleyball; and co-ed sports include cheerleading and dance. ===Mascot=== The mascot is a threshing stone, based on a piece of farm equipment that the Mennonites who moved to the Great Plains of the United States and Canada in the late 1800s used briefly (just before the invention and near-universal adoption of the mechanical threshing machine) for threshing their wheat crops. In 2022, a new mascot, &quot;Threshy,&quot; was revealed during the college's Fall Festival homecoming game. The mascot incorporated Bethel's threshing stone logos and styles on the character's head, arms, and shoulder, and was covered in the college's iconic maroon and gray. ===Facilities=== The newest facilities on campus are both athletics-related, the Ward Tennis Center (2010) and the Allen Wedel Softball Field (2017; clubhouse completed summer 2021). == Notable people == '''Faculty''' * [[Jacob Ewert]], Mennonite socialist, pacifist and publisher *[[Joseph Kesselring]], voice instructor, writer and playwright '''Alumni''' * [[Daniel Hege]] (B.A., 1987), music director, [[Wichita Symphony Orchestra]] * [[John M. Janzen|John Janzen]] (B.A., 1961), professor [[emeritus]], Department of [[Anthropology]], [[University of Kansas]] * [[Gordon D. Kaufman]] (B.A., 1947), theologian and professor, [[Harvard Divinity School]] * [[Susan Loepp]] (B.A., 1989), mathematician * [[Polingaysi Qöyawayma]] (Bethel Academy, 1915), Hopi educator, writer and potter; Outstanding Alumnus, 1979&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |url=https://www.azwhf.org/inductions/inducted-women/polingazsi-qoyawayma-elizabeth-q-white-1892-1990/ |title=Polingazsi Qoyawayma (Elisabeth Q. White) |publisher=[[Arizona Women's Hall of Fame]] |access-date=September 7, 2017 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170912011741/https://www.azwhf.org/inductions/inducted-women/polingazsi-qoyawayma-elizabeth-q-white-1892-1990/ |archive-date=September 12, 2017 |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt; * [[Jacob A. Schowalter]], philanthropist * [[Waldo Rudolph Wedel|Waldo R. Wedel]] (Bethel Academy, 1926), [[archaeologist]], central figure in the study of the [[prehistory]] of the [[Great Plains]] * [[Dallas Wiebe]], writer &lt;!-- *** INSTRUCTIONS FOR NOTABLE PEOPLE SECTION *** When you add a name in this section, it's YOUR responsibility to ensure all of the following for each person: 1) Insert person into list sorted either by last name (surname). 2) Wikilink the person to their existing Wikipedia article. 3) Each person MUST meet [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]] requirements to verify their [[Wikipedia:Notability]] and prove they attended this school. *** END OF INSTRUCTIONS *** --&gt; ==See also== * [[Threshing stone]] * [[Newton, Kansas]] * [[Arkansas Valley Interurban Railway]] ==References== {{Reflist}} ==Further reading== * Kaufman, Edmund G. (1973), ''General Conference Mennonite Pioneers'', Bethel College, North Newton, Kansas. * Pannabecker, Samuel Floyd (1975), ''Open Doors: A History of the General Conference Mennonite Church'', Faith and Life Press. {{ISBN|0-87303-636-0}} ==External links== {{commons category|Bethel College (North Newton, Kansas)}} * {{Official website}} * [http://bethelthreshers.com Bethel Athletics website] * [http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/B48605.html Bethel College] in ''Global Anabaptist Mennonite Encyclopedia Online'' {{Colleges and universities in Kansas}} {{Kansas Collegiate Athletic Conference navbox}} {{National Register of Historic Places}} {{Authority control}} [[Category:Bethel College (Kansas)| ]] [[Category:Buildings and structures in Harvey County, Kansas]] [[Category:Education in Harvey County, Kansas]] [[Category:Universities and colleges established in 1887]] [[Category:Mennonitism in Kansas]] [[Category:Peace and conflict studies]] [[Category:Romanesque Revival architecture in Kansas]] [[Category:University and college buildings on the National Register of Historic Places in Kansas]] [[Category:Universities and colleges affiliated with the Mennonite Church USA]] [[Category:Tourist attractions in Harvey County, Kansas]] [[Category:National Register of Historic Places in Harvey County, Kansas]] [[Category:1887 establishments in Kansas]] [[Category:Private universities and colleges in Kansas]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=North_Newton,_Kansas&diff=1259222358</id> <title>North Newton, Kansas</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=North_Newton,_Kansas&diff=1259222358"/> <updated>2024-11-24T01:10:14Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: ce <hr /> <div>{{Short description|City in Harvey County, Kansas}} {{Use mdy dates|date=July 2023}} {{Infobox settlement |name = North Newton, Kansas |settlement_type = [[City]] &lt;!-- Images --&gt; |image_skyline = Bethel-memorial-hall.jpg |image_caption = Memorial Hall on [[Bethel College (Kansas)|Bethel College]] campus |image_flag = |image_seal = &lt;!-- Maps --&gt; |image_map = Harvey_County_Kansas_Incorporated_and_Unincorporated_areas_North_Newton_Highlighted.svg |map_caption = Location within [[Harvey County, Kansas|Harvey County]] and [[Kansas]] |image_map1 = Map of Harvey Co, Ks, USA.png |map_caption1 = [[Kansas Department of Transportation|KDOT]] map of [[Harvey County, Kansas|Harvey County]] ([[:File:Kansas official transportation map legend.png|legend]]) &lt;!-- Location --&gt; |coordinates_footnotes = &lt;ref name=&quot;GNIS&quot;/&gt; |coordinates = {{coord|38|04|36|N|97|20|51|W|region:US-KS_type:city_source:GNIS|display=inline,title}} |subdivision_type = [[List of sovereign states|Country]] |subdivision_name = United States |subdivision_type1 = [[U.S. state|State]] |subdivision_name1 = [[Kansas]] |subdivision_type2 = [[List of counties in Kansas|County]] |subdivision_name2 = [[Harvey County, Kansas|Harvey]] |subdivision_type3 = [[List of townships in Kansas|Township]] |subdivision_name3 = [[Newton Township, Harvey County, Kansas|Newton]] &lt;!-- Established --&gt; |established_title = Founded |established_date = |established_title1 = [[Platted]] |established_date1 = |established_title2 = [[Municipal corporation|Incorporated]] |established_date2 = 1938 |named_for = North of Newton &lt;!-- Government --&gt; |government_footnotes = |government_type = [[Council-Manager]] |leader_title = [[Mayor]] |leader_name = |leader_title1 = City Admin |leader_name1 = &lt;!-- Area --&gt; |area_footnotes = &lt;ref name=&quot;CenPopGazetteer2019&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=2019 U.S. Gazetteer Files|url=https://www2.census.gov/geo/docs/maps-data/data/gazetteer/2019_Gazetteer/2019_gaz_place_20.txt|publisher=United States Census Bureau|access-date=July 24, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; |area_total_sq_mi = 0.92 |area_land_sq_mi = 0.91 |area_water_sq_mi = 0.00 |area_total_km2 = 2.37 |area_land_km2 = 2.37 |area_water_km2 = 0.00 |unit_pref = Imperial &lt;!-- Elevation --&gt; |elevation_footnotes = &lt;ref name=&quot;GNIS&quot;/&gt; |elevation_ft = 1437 &lt;!-- Population --&gt; |population_footnotes = &lt;ref name=&quot;Census-2020-Profile&quot;/&gt; |population_as_of = [[2020 United States census|2020]] |population_total = 1814 |pop_est_footnotes = |pop_est_as_of = |population_est = |population_density_sq_mi = auto |population_density_km2 = auto &lt;!-- General information --&gt; |timezone = [[Central Time Zone|CST]] |utc_offset = -6 |timezone_DST = CDT |utc_offset_DST = -5 |postal_code_type = [[ZIP code]] |postal_code = 67117 |area_code_type = [[North American Numbering Plan|Area code]] |area_code = [[Area code 316|316]] |blank_name = [[Federal Information Processing Standards|FIPS code]] |blank_info = {{FIPS|20|51225}} |blank1_name = [[Geographic Names Information System|GNIS ID]] |blank1_info = 2395258&lt;ref name=&quot;GNIS&quot;&gt;{{GNIS|2395258}}&lt;/ref&gt; |website = {{URL|http://www.northnewton.org/|northnewton.org}} }} '''North Newton''' is a city in [[Harvey County, Kansas]], United States.&lt;ref name=&quot;GNIS&quot;/&gt; As of the [[2020 United States census|2020 census]], the population of the city was 1,814.&lt;ref name=&quot;Census-2020-Profile&quot;&gt;{{cite web |title=Profile of North Newton, Kansas in 2020 |url=https://data.census.gov/cedsci/profile?g=1600000US2051225 |publisher=United States Census Bureau |access-date=November 11, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211112010756/https://data.census.gov/cedsci/profile?g=1600000US2051225 |archive-date=November 12, 2021 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; It is located between the north side of the city of [[Newton, Kansas|Newton]] (separate entity) and the south side of Interstate [[I-135]]. North Newton is home of [[Bethel College (Kansas)|Bethel College]]. ==History== For millennia, the land now known as Kansas was inhabited by [[Native Americans in the United States|Native Americans]]. In 1803, most of [[History of Kansas|modern Kansas]] was secured by the United States as part of the [[Louisiana Purchase]]. In 1854, the [[Kansas Territory]] was organized, then in 1861 [[Kansas]] became the 34th [[U.S. state]]. In 1872, [[Harvey County, Kansas|Harvey County]] was founded. A post office was established as '''Bethel College''' on December 19, 1934, then later it was renamed to '''North Newton''' on December 1, 1938.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.kshs.org/geog/geog_postoffices/search/county:HV |title=Kansas Post Offices, 1828-1961 (archived) |publisher=Kansas Historical Society |access-date=11 June 2014 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131009125036/http://www.kshs.org/geog/geog_postoffices/search/county:HV |archive-date=October 9, 2013 }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Geography== North Newton is located along the north side of the city of [[Newton, Kansas|Newton]]. According to the [[United States Census Bureau]], the city has a total area of {{convert|0.90|sqmi|sqkm|2}}, all of it land.&lt;ref name=&quot;Gazetteer files&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=US Gazetteer files 2010|url=https://www.census.gov/geo/www/gazetteer/files/Gaz_places_national.txt|publisher=[[United States Census Bureau]]|access-date=2012-07-06|url-status=dead|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110220065340/http://www.census.gov/geo/www/gazetteer/files/Gaz_places_national.txt|archive-date=2011-02-20}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Climate=== The climate in this area is characterized by hot, humid summers and generally mild to cool winters. According to the [[Köppen Climate Classification]] system, North Newton has a [[humid subtropical climate]], abbreviated &quot;Cfa&quot; on climate maps.&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather-summary.php3?s=447541&amp;cityname=North+Newton%2C+Kansas%2C+United+States+of+America&amp;units= Climate Summary for North Newton, Kansas]&lt;/ref&gt; ==Area attractions== * Kauffman Museum at [[Bethel College (Kansas)|Bethel College]]&lt;ref&gt;[http://www.bethelks.edu/kauffman/ Kauffman Museum at Bethel College]&lt;/ref&gt; ==Demographics== {{US Census population |align=left |1950= 566 |1960= 890 |1970= 963 |1980= 1222 |1990= 1262 |2000= 1522 |2010= 1759 |2020= 1814 |estyear= |estimate= |estref= |align-fn=center |footnote=[https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/decennial-census.html U.S. Decennial Census] }} ===2020 census=== The [[2020 United States census]] counted 1,814 people, 700 households, and 417 families in North Newton.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table P16: HOUSEHOLD TYPE |url=https://data.census.gov/table?q=North%20Newton%20city,%20Kansas%20p16&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=:0 /&gt; The population density was 1,986.9 per square mile (767.1/km{{sup|2}}). There were 760 housing units at an average density of 832.4 per square mile (321.4/km{{sup|2}}).&lt;ref name=:0&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table DP1: PROFILE OF GENERAL POPULATION AND HOUSING CHARACTERISTICS |url=https://data.census.gov/table/DECENNIALDP2020.DP1?q=North%20Newton%20city,%20Kansas%20dp1 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Bureau |first=US Census |title=Gazetteer Files |url=https://www.census.gov/geographies/reference-files/2020/geo/gazetter-file.html |access-date=2023-12-30 |website=Census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; The racial makeup was 86.6% (1,571) [[White (U.S. Census)|white]] or [[European American]] (84.23% [[Non-Hispanic White|non-Hispanic white]]), 3.91% (71) [[African American (U.S. Census)|black]] or [[African American|African-American]], 0.94% (17) [[Native American (U.S. Census)|Native American]] or [[Alaska Native]], 1.1% (20) [[Asian (U.S. Census)|Asian]], 0.06% (1) [[Pacific Islander (U.S. Census)|Pacific Islander]] or [[Native Hawaiian]], 2.87% (52) from [[Race (United States Census)|other races]], and 4.52% (82) from [[Multiracial Americans|two or more races]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table P1: RACE |url=https://data.census.gov/table/DECENNIALPL2020.P1?q=North%20Newton%20city,%20Kansas%20p1&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Hispanic (U.S. Census)|Hispanic]] or [[Latino (U.S. Census)|Latino]] of any race was 7.72% (140) of the population.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table P2: HISPANIC OR LATINO, AND NOT HISPANIC OR LATINO BY RACE |url=https://data.census.gov/table/DECENNIALPL2020.P2?q=North%20Newton%20city,%20Kansas%20p2&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; Of the 700 households, 13.7% had children under the age of 18; 55.0% were married couples living together; 28.6% had a female householder with no spouse or partner present. 36.9% of households consisted of individuals and 24.9% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older.&lt;ref name=:0 /&gt; The average household size was 2.0 and the average family size was 2.6.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table S1101: HOUSEHOLDS AND FAMILIES |url=https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST5Y2020.S1101?q=North%20Newton%20city,%20Kansas%20s1101%20&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; The percent of those with a bachelor’s degree or higher was estimated to be 39.8% of the population.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table S1501: EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT |url=https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST5Y2020.S1501?q=North%20Newton%20city,%20Kansas%20s1501%20&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; 11.0% of the population was under the age of 18, 20.5% from 18 to 24, 12.3% from 25 to 44, 19.3% from 45 to 64, and 36.8% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 52.8 years. For every 100 females, there were 114.9 males.&lt;ref name=:0 /&gt; For every 100 females ages 18 and older, there were 117.2 males.&lt;ref name=:0 /&gt; The 2016-2020 5-year [[American Community Survey]] estimates show that the median household income was $71,298 (with a margin of error of +/- $9,759) and the median family income was $95,673 (+/- $14,406).&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table S1903: MEDIAN INCOME IN THE PAST 12 MONTHS (IN 2020 INFLATION-ADJUSTED DOLLARS) |url=https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST5Y2020.S1903?q=North%20Newton%20city,%20Kansas%20s1903%20&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; Males had a median income of $34,821 (+/- $17,718) versus $16,731 (+/- $8,049) for females. The median income for those above 16 years old was $26,354 (+/- $14,002).&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table S2001: EARNINGS IN THE PAST 12 MONTHS (IN 2020 INFLATION-ADJUSTED DOLLARS) |url=https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST5Y2020.S2001?q=North%20Newton%20city,%20Kansas%20s2001%20&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; Approximately, 2.0% of families and 5.1% of the population were below the [[poverty line]], including 3.6% of those under the age of 18 and 4.2% of those ages 65 or over.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table S1701: POVERTY STATUS IN THE PAST 12 MONTHS |url=https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST5Y2020.S1701?q=North%20Newton%20city,%20Kansas%20s1701%20&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table S1702: POVERTY STATUS IN THE PAST 12 MONTHS OF FAMILIES |url=https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST5Y2020.S1702?q=North%20Newton%20city,%20Kansas%20s1702&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===2010 census=== As of the [[census]]&lt;ref name =&quot;wwwcensusgov&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=U.S. Census website|url=https://www.census.gov|publisher=[[United States Census Bureau]]|access-date=2012-07-06}}&lt;/ref&gt; of 2010, there were 1,759 people, 710 households, and 387 families living in the city. The [[population density]] was {{convert|1954.4|PD/sqmi|PD/km2|1}}. There were 741 housing units at an average density of {{convert|823.3|/sqmi|/km2|1}}. The racial makeup of the city was 94.7% [[White (U.S. Census)|White]], 1.4% [[African American (U.S. Census)|African American]], 0.6% [[Native American (U.S. Census)|Native American]], 0.9% [[Asian (U.S. Census)|Asian]], 1.0% from [[Race (U.S. Census)|other races]], and 1.5% from two or more races. [[Hispanic (U.S. Census)|Hispanic]] or [[Latino (U.S. Census)|Latino]] of any race were 4.2% of the population. There were 710 households, of which 16.3% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 50.8% were [[Marriage|married couples]] living together, 3.0% had a female householder with no husband present, 0.7% had a male householder with no wife present, and 45.5% were non-families. 43.0% of all households were made up of individuals, and 32% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 1.96 and the average family size was 2.69. The median age in the city was 48.6 years. 13.6% of residents were under the age of 18; 21.2% were between the ages of 18 and 24; 11.5% were from 25 to 44; 20.6% were from 45 to 64; and 33.2% were 65 years of age or older. The gender makeup of the city was 45.7% male and 54.3% female. ===2000 census=== As of the [[census]]&lt;ref name=&quot;GR2&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.census.gov|publisher=[[United States Census Bureau]]|access-date=2008-01-31|title=U.S. Census website}}&lt;/ref&gt; of 2000, there were 1,522 people, 604 households, and 335 families living in the city. The population density was {{convert|1,775.4|PD/sqmi|PD/km2|sp=us|adj=off}}. There were 632 housing units at an average density of {{convert|737.2|/sqmi|/km2|sp=us|adj=off}}. The racial makeup of the city was 93.96% [[White (U.S. Census)|White]], 2.04% [[African American (U.S. Census)|African American]], 0.20% [[Native American (U.S. Census)|Native American]], 0.33% [[Asian (U.S. Census)|Asian]], 0.33% [[Pacific Islander (U.S. Census)|Pacific Islander]], 1.97% from [[Race (United States Census)|other races]], and 1.18% from two or more races. [[Hispanic (U.S. Census)|Hispanic]] or [[Latino (U.S. Census)|Latino]] of any race were 2.83% of the population.&lt;ref&gt;[https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2000/phc-3-18.pdf U.S. Census Bureau - 2000 Census, Population and Housing Unit Counts for Kansas]&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[https://www.census.gov/prod/cen1990/cph2/cph-2-18.pdf U.S. Census Bureau - 1990 Census, Population and Housing Unit Counts for Kansas]&lt;/ref&gt; There were 604 households, out of which 14.7% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 53.6% were [[Marriage|married couples]] living together, 1.3% had a female householder with no husband present, and 44.4% were non-families. 42.2% of all households were made up of individuals, and 31.1% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 1.89 and the average family size was 2.55. In the city, the population was spread out, with 10.8% under the age of 18, 23.3% from 18 to 24, 12.4% from 25 to 44, 18.1% from 45 to 64, and 35.3% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 49 years. For every 100 females, there were 79.1 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 76.5 males. As of 2000 the median income for a household in the city was $36,974, and the median income for a family was $52,500. Males had a median income of $40,769 versus $23,056 for females. The [[per capita income]] for the city was $18,869. About 3.6% of families and 6.8% of the population were below the [[poverty line]], including 5.3% of those under age 18 and 6.8% of those age 65 or over. ==Government== The North Newton government consists of a mayor and five council members. The council meets the 2nd Monday of each month at 7PM.&lt;ref name=&quot;gov1&quot;&gt;[http://www.lkm.org/directory/cities.php?ID=585 North Newton - Directory of Public Officials]&lt;/ref&gt; * City Hall, 2601 N Main. ==Education== ===Primary and secondary education=== The community is served by [[Newton USD 373]] public school district. ===College=== North Newton is home to [[Bethel College (Kansas)|Bethel College]], the oldest [[Mennonite]] [[college]] in the United States since its founding in 1887.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.bethelks.edu/about/who-we-are/history-bethel|title=History of Bethel {{!}} Bethel College|website=www.bethelks.edu|language=en|access-date=2020-02-04}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Infrastructure== [[File:Stouffer's Railroad Map of Kansas 1915-1918 Harvey County.png|thumb|right|1915 Railroad Map of [[Harvey County, Kansas|Harvey County]]]] ===Transportation=== Interstate [[I-135]] runs along the north side of North Newton. ===Utilities=== * Internet ** Cable is provided by [[Cox Communications]]. ** Wireless is provided by [http://www.Pixius.com/ Pixius Communications]. ** Satellite is provided by [[HughesNet]], [[StarBand]], [[Wildblue|WildBlue]]. * TV ** Cable is provided by [[Cox Communications]]. ** Satellite is provided by [[DirecTV]], [[Dish Network]]. ** Terrestrial is provided by regional [[digital television|digital TV]] stations. * Telephone ** Landline is provided by [[AT&amp;T Inc.|AT&amp;T]]. ** Cellular is provided by [[AT&amp;T Mobility]]. * Electricity ** City is provided by [[Westar Energy]]. * Gas ** Service is provided by [[Kansas Gas Service]]. * Water ** City is provided by City of Newton, billed by [http://www.northnewton.org/city-services.htm City of North Newton]. ** Rural is provided by [http://harveycountyrwd1.com/ Harvey County RWD #1] ([https://www.krwa.net/Portals/krwa/mapovers/HV01.pdf map]). * Sewer ** Service is billed by [http://www.northnewton.org/city-services.htm City of North Newton]. * Trash ** Service is billed by [http://www.northnewton.org/city-services.htm City of North Newton]. ==Notable people== {{See also|Bethel_College_(Kansas)#Notable_people|l1=List of Bethel College people}} *[[Kate E. Brubacher]], [[United States Attorney]] for the [[United States District Court for the District of Kansas|District of Kansas]] *[[Rachel deBenedet]], actress and singer. ==See also== * [[List of people from Harvey County, Kansas]] * [[National Register of Historic Places listings in Harvey County, Kansas]] * [[Bethel Threshers]] * [[Threshing stone|Threshing Stone]] * [[Chisholm Trail]] ==References== {{Reflist}} ==Further reading== {{See also|Harvey County, Kansas#Further reading|l1=List of books about Harvey County, Kansas}} ==External links== {{Commons category|North Newton, Kansas}} ;City * {{Official website|http://www.northnewton.org/|North Newton - Official}} * [https://www.lkm.org/members/?id=41260926 North Newton - Directory of Public Officials], League of Kansas Municipalities ;Historical * [https://www.hcgsks.org/ Harvey County Genealogical Society] * [http://www.harveycountyroots.com Harvey County Roots] * {{YouTube|rCYljk9ZGUI|Rachel Buller - Fighting For Art}}, from ''Hatteberg's People'' on [[KAKE]] TV news ;Maps * [http://www.ksdot.org/Assets/wwwksdotorg/bureaus/burTransPlan/maps/city-pdf/newton.pdf North Newton City Map], KDOT * [https://archive.org/download/usgs_drg_ks_38097_a3/o38097a3.tif Topo Map of Newton / North Newton / Walton area], USGS * Harvey County Maps: [http://www.ksdot.org/Assets/wwwksdotorg/bureaus/burTransPlan/maps/county-pdf/harvey.PDF Current], [http://www.ksdot.org/bureaus/burtransplan/maps/PastPublishedCounty.asp Historic], KDOT {{Harvey County, Kansas}} {{Authority control}} [[Category:Cities in Kansas]] [[Category:Cities in Harvey County, Kansas]] [[Category:Wichita, KS Metropolitan Statistical Area]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=American_Revolutionary_War&diff=1259222191</id> <title>American Revolutionary War</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=American_Revolutionary_War&diff=1259222191"/> <updated>2024-11-24T01:08:53Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: /* Declaration of Independence */ trim <hr /> <div>{{Short description|1775–1783 American war of independence}} {{About|military actions primarily|origins and aftermath|American Revolution}} {{Pp|expiry=indefinite|small=yes}} {{Use American English|date=June 2019}} {{Use mdy dates|date=March 2020}} {{Infobox military conflict | conflict = American Revolutionary War | partof = the [[American Revolution]] | image = {{Multiple image | perrow = 1/2/2 | total_width = 300 | border=infobox | image1= Surrender of Lord Cornwallis.jpg | image2= Battle of Guilford Courthouse 15 March 1781.jpg | image3= Battle of Trenton by Charles McBarron.jpg | image4= BattleofLongisland.jpg | image5= The_Battle_of_Bunker's_Hill_June_17_1775_by_John_Trumbull.jpeg | footer_align = left | footer = '''Clockwise from top left''': ''[[Surrender of Lord Cornwallis]]'' after the [[siege of Yorktown]], [[Battle of Trenton]], [[The Death of General Warren at the Battle of Bunker's Hill, June 17, 1775|The Death of General Warren]] at the [[Battle of Bunker Hill]], [[Battle of Long Island]], and the [[Battle of Guilford Court House]] }} | image_size = | date = April 19, 1775{{snds}}September 3, 1783{{Efn|A cease-fire in North America was proclaimed by Congress&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web | url=http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/proc1783.asp | title=Avalon Project - British-American Diplomcay : Proclamation Declaring the Cesssation of Arms; April 11, 1783 }}&lt;/ref&gt; on April 11, 1783, under a cease-fire agreement between Great Britain and France on January 20, 1783. The final peace treaty was signed on September 3, 1783, and ratified on January 14, 1784, in the U.S., with final ratification exchanged in Europe on May 12, 1784. Hostilities in India continued until July 1783.}}&lt;br /&gt;({{Age in years, months and days|1775|04|19|1783|09|03}})&lt;br /&gt;Ratification effective: May 12, 1784 | place = [[Eastern United States|Eastern North America]], [[Atlantic Ocean|North Atlantic Ocean]], the [[Caribbean]] | result = &lt;!--DO NOT ALTER WITHOUT CONSENSUS --&gt; American and allied victory * Signing of the [[United States Declaration of Independence]] in 1776. * [[Kingdom of Great Britain|Great Britain]] would not recognize American independence until signing the [[Treaty of Paris (1783)|Treaty of Paris]]. * End of the [[First British Empire]]&lt;ref name=&quot;4I7tG&quot;&gt;[[#simms|Simms 2009]], pp. 615–618&lt;/ref&gt; | territory = Great Britain cedes generally, all mainland territories east of the [[Mississippi River]], south of the [[Great Lakes]], and north of [[the Floridas]] to the [[United States]]. * Great Britain cedes [[Tobago]] and [[Senegal]] to [[France]]. * Great Britain cedes [[Invasion of Minorca (1781)|Menorca]], [[West Florida]] and [[East Florida]] to [[Spain]]. &lt;!--PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE WITHOUT CONSENSUS--&gt;| combatant1 = '''[[Patriot (American Revolution)|Patriots]]:'''&lt;br&gt;{{flagcountry|Thirteen Colonies}} (1775)&lt;br&gt;{{Flagdeco|Thirteen Colonies}}{{Flagdeco|United States|1776}} [[United Colonies]] (1775–1776)&lt;br&gt;{{Unbulleted list |{{Flagdeco|United States|1776}}{{Flagdeco|United States|1777}} [[United States]] (from 1776){{efn|Including the United Colonies period from 1776 to 1781 and the [[Confederation period]] from 1781 to 1783.}} {{Collapsible list|bullets=on |[[New Hampshire in the American Revolution|New Hampshire]]|[[Massachusetts in the American Revolution|Massachusetts]]|[[Rhode Island in the American Revolution|Rhode Island]]|[[Connecticut in the American Revolution|Connecticut]]|[[New York in the American Revolution|New York]]|[[New Jersey in the American Revolution|New Jersey]]|[[Pennsylvania in the American Revolution|Pennsylvania]]|[[Delaware in the American Revolution|Delaware]]|[[Maryland in the American Revolution|Maryland]]|[[Virginia in the American Revolution|Virginia]]|[[North Carolina in the American Revolution|North Carolina]]|[[South Carolina in the American Revolution|South Carolina]]|[[Georgia in the American Revolution|Georgia]]}}&lt;br&gt;{{Flagcountry|Kingdom of France}} &lt;br&gt;{{flagdeco|Kingdom of Spain|1760}} [[History of Spain (1700–1808)|Spain]]&lt;br&gt;{{Flagcountry|Dutch Republic}} }} | combatant1a = '''Combatants''' {{Unbulleted list |[[File:CONGRESSOWN.jpg|15px]] Br. Canadien, Cong. rgts.{{Efn|Two independent &quot;COR&quot; Regiments, the Congress's Own Regiments, were recruited among British Canadiens. The [[1st Canadian Regiment]] formed by [[James Livingston (American Revolution)|James Livingston]] of [[Chambly, Quebec]];&lt;ref name=&quot;h5WNR&quot;&gt;[[#smith1907|Smith 1907, p. 86]]&lt;/ref&gt; and the [[2nd Canadian Regiment]] formed by [[Moses Hazen]] of [[Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu]], Quebec.&lt;ref name=&quot;kRctn&quot;&gt;[[#everest1977|Everest 1977, p. 38]]&lt;/ref&gt;}} |[[File:Pavillon royal de France.svg|border|15px]] Br. Canadien mil., Fr. led{{Efn|[[Augustin de La Balme]] independently [[Augustin de La Balme#American Revolution|marched on Detroit]] under a [[Flag of France#Kingdom of France|French flag]] with British Canadien militia recruited from western Quebec ([[Illinois County, Virginia]]) at the county seat of [[Kaskaskia, Illinois|Kaskaskia]], [[Cahokia, Illinois|Cahokia]], and [[Vincennes, Indiana|Vincennes]].&lt;ref name=&quot;kbqqr&quot;&gt;[[#seineke1981|Seineke 1981, p. 36, fn]]&lt;/ref&gt;}}}} {{Collapsible list&lt;!-- removed for consistency, until this works correctly when nested: |bullets=on --&gt; |titlestyle=background:transparent;text-align:left;font-weight:normal;font-size:100%; |framestyle=border:none; padding:0; &lt;!--Hides borders and improves row spacing--&gt; |title=[[Native Americans in the United States|Native Americans]]&lt;ref name=&quot;bell&quot;&gt;[[#jareditors2025|Bell 2015]], Essay&lt;/ref&gt; |[[Oneida people|Oneida]]|[[Tuscarora people|Tuscarora]]|[[Catawba people|Catawba]]|[[Lenape]]|[[Chickasaw]]|[[Choctaw]]|[[Mohicans|Mohican]]|[[Mi'kmaq]]{{Efn|(until 1779)}}|[[Abenaki]]|[[Cheraw]]|[[Pedee people|Pedee]]|[[Lumbee]]&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://allthingsliberty.com/2015/02/indian-patriots-from-eastern-massachusetts-six-perspectives/|title=Indian Patriots from Eastern Massachusetts: Six Perspectives|first=Daniel J.|last=Tortora|date=February 4, 2015|website=Journal of the American Revolution}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} &lt;!--DO NOT CHANGE WITHOUT CONSENSUS--&gt;| combatant2 = {{Flagcountry|Kingdom of Great Britain}} *[[Loyalist (American Revolution)|Loyalists]]&lt;!--Agreed by consensus, do not revert--&gt; *[[Province of Quebec (1763–1791)|Quebec]] *[[Nova Scotia]] *[[West Florida]] *[[East Florida]] | combatant2a = '''Combatants'''&lt;br&gt;{{Unbulleted list |{{Collapsible list|bullets=on |titlestyle=background:transparent;text-align:left;font-weight:normal;font-size:100%; |title={{flagicon|Hesse}}{{Efn|Sixty-five percent of Britain's German auxiliaries employed in North America were from [[Landgraviate of Hesse-Kassel|Hesse-Kassel]] (16,000) and [[Hesse-Hanau]] (2,422), flying this same flag.&lt;ref&gt;[[#axelrod2014|Axelrod 2014]], p. 66&lt;/ref&gt;}} {{flagicon|Brunswick|pre1814}}{{Efn|Twenty percent of Britain's German auxiliaries employed in North America were from [[Principality of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel|Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel]] (5,723),&lt;ref&gt;[[#eelking1893|Eelking 1893]], p. 66&lt;/ref&gt; flying this flag.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Duchy of Brunswick until 1918 (Germany) |url=https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de-bs814.html |website=www.crwflags.com |publisher=[[Flags of the World]] |access-date=5 February 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} [[Germans in the American Revolution#Allies of Great Britain|German mercenaries/auxiliaries]]&lt;ref name=&quot;atwood1,23&quot;&gt;[[#atwood2002|Atwood 2002]], pp. 1, 23&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|The British hired over 30,000 professional soldiers from various German states who served in North America from 1775 to 1782.&lt;ref&gt;[[#lowell84|Lowell 1884]], pp. 14–15&lt;/ref&gt; Commentators and historians often refer to them as mercenaries or auxiliaries, terms that are sometimes used interchangeably.&lt;ref name=&quot;atwood1,23&quot; /&gt;}}&lt;!--There was a consensus to use both terms, per neutrality.--&gt; |[[File:Wappen-HK (1736-1804).svg|17px]] [[Landgraviate of Hesse-Kassel|Hesse-Kassel]]|[[File:Wappen-HK (1736-1804).svg|17px]] [[Hesse-Hanau]]|[[File:Coat of Arms of the Principality of Waldeck and Pyrmont.svg|19px]] [[Waldeck (state)|Waldeck]]&lt;!--black, yellow and red colors not officially used by the military until 1814: see https://www.fotw.info/flags/de-wp_hi.html--&gt;|[[File:Coat of Arms of Brunswick-Lüneburg.svg|19px]] [[Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel|Brunswick]]|[[File:Wappen Brandenburg-Ansbach.svg|19px|link=]] [[Ansbach-Bayreuth|Ansbach]]|[[File:Blason Principaut%C3%A9 d%27Anhalt-Zerbst (XVIIIe si%C3%A8cle).svg|19px|link=]] [[Principality of Anhalt-Zerbst|Anhalt-Zerbst]] |{{Flagcountry|Electorate of Hanover}} }} {{Collapsible list|bullets=on |titlestyle=background:transparent;text-align:left;font-weight:normal;font-size:100%; |title=[[Native Americans in the United States|Native Americans]]&lt;ref name=&quot;bell&quot; /&gt; |[[Onondaga people|Onondaga]]|[[Mohawk people|Mohawk]] |[[Cayuga people|Cayuga]]|[[Seneca people|Seneca]]|[[Mi'kmaq]]{{Efn|(from 1779)}}|[[Cherokee]]|[[Odawa]]|[[Muscogee]]|[[Susquehannock]]|[[Shawnee]]}} }} | commander1 = &lt;!--MAJOR LEADERS ONLY. DO NOT ADD/REMOVE WITHOUT CONSENSUS --&gt;{{Unbulleted list |{{Flagdeco|United States|1776}} {{Flagdeco|United States|1777}} [[Peyton Randolph]] {{Natural Causes}} |{{Flagdeco|United States|1776}} {{Flagdeco|United States|1777}} [[John Hancock]]|{{Flagdeco|United States|1776}} {{Flagdeco|United States|1777}} [[Benjamin Franklin]]}} ---- {{Unbulleted list|{{Flagdeco|United States|1777}} [[George Washington]]|{{Flagdeco|United States|1777}} [[Horatio Gates]]|{{Flagdeco|United States|1777}} [[Nathanael Greene]]|{{Flagdeco|United States|1777}} [[Henry Knox]]|{{Flagdeco|United States|1777}} [[John Sullivan (general)|John Sullivan]]|{{Flagdeco|United States|1777}} [[Benedict Arnold]]{{Turncoat}}{{Efn|Arnold served on the American side from 1775 to 1780; after defecting, he served on the British side from 1780 to 1783.}}|{{flagicon image |George Rogers Clark Flag.svg}} [[George Rogers Clark]]| {{Flagdeco|Kingdom of France}} {{Flagdeco|United States|1777}} [[Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette|Lafayette]]|{{Flagdeco|Kingdom of France}} [[Jean-Baptiste Donatien de Vimeur, comte de Rochambeau|Rochambeau]]|{{Flagdeco|Spain|1748}} [[Bernardo de Gálvez, 1st Viscount of Galveston|Bernardo de Gálvez]]|[[List of military leaders in the American Revolutionary War|''full list...'']]}} | commander2 = &lt;!--MAJOR LEADERS ONLY. DO NOT ADD/REMOVE WITHOUT CONSENSUS--&gt;{{Unbulleted list |{{flagdeco|Kingdom of Great Britain}} {{Flagicon image|Royal standard of Great Britain (1714–1801).svg}} [[George III]]|{{Flagicon|Kingdom of Great Britain}} [[Frederick North, Lord North|Lord North]]|{{Flagicon|Kingdom of Great Britain}} [[William Petty, 2nd Earl of Shelburne|Lord Shelburne]]}} ---- {{Unbulleted list|{{Flagicon|Kingdom of Great Britain}} [[George Germain, 1st Viscount Sackville|Lord George Germain]]|{{Flagdeco|Kingdom of Great Britain}} [[Thomas Gage]]|{{Flagdeco|Kingdom of Great Britain}} [[William Howe, 5th Viscount Howe|William Howe]]|{{Flagdeco|Kingdom of Great Britain}} [[Henry Clinton (British Army officer, born 1730)|Henry Clinton]]|{{Flagdeco|Kingdom of Great Britain}} [[John Burgoyne]]|{{Flagdeco|Kingdom of Great Britain}} [[Charles Cornwallis, 1st Marquess Cornwallis|Charles Cornwallis]]|{{Flagdeco|Kingdom of Great Britain}} [[Benedict Arnold]]{{Efn|1780–1783}}|{{Flagdeco|Kingdom of Great Britain}} [[Henry Hamilton (colonial administrator)|Henry Hamilton]]|{{Flagdeco|Kingdom of Great Britain}} [[Banastre Tarleton]]|[[List of military leaders in the American Revolutionary War|''full list...'']]}} | strength1 = {{Unbulleted list |'''United States:'''{{Bulleted list |[[Continental Army|Army]] and [[Militia (United States)|militia]]:{{Bulleted list|40,000 (average)&lt;ref name=&quot;duncan371&quot;&gt;[[#duncan1931|Duncan, L. 1931]], p. 371&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|The total in active duty service for the American Cause during the American Revolutionary War numbered 200,000.&lt;ref name=&quot;6bqxv&quot;&gt;[[#lanning2009|Lanning 2009]], pp. 195–196&lt;/ref&gt;}}}} |[[Continental Navy|Navy]]:{{Bulleted list|53 [[Frigate#Age of sail|frigates]] and [[Sloop-of-war|sloops]]&lt;ref name=&quot;Greene&quot; /&gt;{{Efn|5,000 sailors (peak),&lt;ref name=&quot;Greene&quot;&gt;[[#jgreene2008|Greene &amp; Pole 2008]], p. 328&lt;/ref&gt; manning privateers, an additional 55,000 total sailors&lt;ref name=&quot;usmm&quot;&gt;[[#usmm2012|U.S. Merchant Marine 2012]], &quot;Privateers and Mariners&quot;&lt;/ref&gt;}}}} |[[Continental Marines|Marines]]: 2,131 (peak)&lt;ref&gt;[[#simmons2003|Simmons 2003]]&lt;/ref&gt; |'''[[List of United States state navies in the American Revolutionary War|State navies]]:'''{{Bulleted list|106 ships (total)&lt;ref&gt;[[#paullin|Paullin 1906]], pp. 315–316&lt;/ref&gt;}}}} |'''France:'''{{Bulleted list |[[French Royal Army|Army]]: 10,800{{Efn|In 1780, General [[Jean-Baptiste Donatien de Vimeur, comte de Rochambeau|Rochambeau]] landed in Rhode Island with an independent command of about 6000 troops,&lt;ref&gt;[[#keiley1912|Keiley 1912, &quot;Rochambeau&quot;]]&lt;/ref&gt; and in 1781 Admiral [[François Joseph Paul de Grasse|de Grasse]] landed nearly 4000 troops who were detached to Lafayette's Continental Army surrounding British General [[Charles Cornwallis, 1st Marquess Cornwallis|Cornwallis]] in Virginia at [[Siege of Yorktown|Yorktown]].&lt;ref&gt;[[#rochDAB|&quot;Rochambeau&quot;, ''Dictionary of American Biography'']]&lt;/ref&gt; An additional 750 French troops participated with the Spanish assault on [[Pensacola, Florida|Pensacola]].&lt;ref name=&quot;beerman181&quot;&gt;[[#beerman1979|Beerman 1979, p. 181]]&lt;/ref&gt;}} |[[French Royal Navy|Navy]]: &lt;small&gt;2 fleets;&lt;/small&gt;{{efn|For five months in 1778 from July to November, the French deployed a fleet to assist American operations off of New York, [[Rhode Island]] and [[Savannah, Georgia|Savannah]] commanded by Admiral [[Charles Henri Hector d'Estaing|d'Estaing]], with little result.&lt;ref&gt;[[#estaingEB1911|Britannica 1911, &quot;C. H. Estaing&quot;]]&lt;/ref&gt; In September 1781, Admiral [[François Joseph Paul de Grasse|de Grasse]] left the West Indies to defeat the British fleet off Virginia at the [[Battle of the Chesapeake]], then offloaded 3,000 troops and siege cannon to support Washington's [[siege of Yorktown]].&lt;ref name=&quot;miTsf&quot;&gt;[[#degrasseEB2021|&quot;F. J. P. de Grasse&quot;, ''Encyclopædia Britannica'']]&lt;/ref&gt;}} &lt;small&gt;escorts&lt;/small&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;dull110&quot;&gt;[[#dull1987|Dull 1987]], p. 110&lt;/ref&gt;}} | '''Spain:''' |[[Spanish Army|Army]]: 12,000{{efn|Governor [[Bernardo de Gálvez]] deployed 500 Spanish regulars in his New Orleans-based attacks on British-held locations west of the Mississippi River in [[Louisiana (New Spain)|Spanish Luisiana]].&lt;ref&gt;[[#gayarre1867|Gayarré 1867, pp. 125–126]]&lt;/ref&gt; In later engagements, Galvez had 800 regulars from New Orleans to assault [[Mobile, Alabama|Mobile]], reinforced by infantry from regiments of Jose de Ezpeleta from Havana. In the assault on Pensacola, the Spanish Army contingents from Havana exceeded 9,000.&lt;ref&gt;[[#beerman1979|Beerman 1979, pp. 177–179]]&lt;/ref&gt; For the final days of the siege at Pensacola siege, Admiral Jose Solano's fleet landed 1,600 crack infantry veterans from that of [[Siege of Gibraltar|Gibraltar]].&lt;ref name=&quot;beerman181&quot; /&gt;}} |[[Spanish Navy|Navy]]: 1 fleet;{{efn|Admiral Jose Solano's fleet arrived from the Mediterranean Sea to support the Spanish conquest of English Pensacola, West Florida.&lt;ref name=&quot;beerman181&quot; /&gt;}} escorts |'''Native Americans:''' Unknown }} | strength2 = {{Unbulleted list |'''Great Britain:'''{{Bulleted list |[[British Army during the American Revolutionary War|Army]]:{{Bulleted list |48,000 (average), most in North America{{Efn|British 121,000 (global 1781)&lt;ref&gt;[[#rinaldi|Rinaldi]], &quot;British Army 1775–1783&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; &quot;Of 7,500 men in the Gibraltar garrison in September (including 400 in hospital), some 3,430 were always on duty&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;[[#chartrand63|Chartrand 2006]], p. 63&lt;/ref&gt;}}}} |[[Royal Navy#1707–1815|Navy]]:{{Bulleted list |Task-force fleets &amp; blockading squadrons{{Efn|Royal Navy 94 [[Ship of the line|ships-of-the-line]] global, 104 [[Frigate#Age of sail|frigates]] global,&lt;ref name=&quot;winfield&quot;&gt;[[#winfield2007|Winfield 2007]]&lt;/ref&gt; 37 [[Sloop-of-war|sloops]] global,&lt;ref name=&quot;winfield&quot; /&gt; 171,000 sailors&lt;ref name=&quot;macksey6,176&quot;&gt;[[#mackesy93|Mackesy 1993]]&amp;nbsp;[1964], pp. 6, 176&lt;/ref&gt;}}}}}} |'''[[Loyalists fighting in the American Revolution|Loyalist troops]]:'''{{Bulleted list |25,000 (total)&lt;ref name=&quot;savas41&quot;&gt;[[#savas2006|Savas &amp; Dameron 2006]], p. xli&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|Contains a detailed listing of American, French, British, German, and Loyalist regiments; indicates when they were raised, the main battles, and what happened to them. Also includes the main warships on both sides, and all the important battles.}}}} |'''[[Hessian (soldier)|German troops]]:'''{{Bulleted list |29,875 (total)&lt;ref name=&quot;Knesebeck&quot;&gt;[[#ernst|Knesebeck 2017]]&amp;nbsp;[1845], p. 9&lt;/ref&gt;}} |'''Native Americans:'''{{Bulleted list|13,000&lt;ref name=&quot;Greene p. 393&quot; /&gt;}}}} | casualties1 = {{Unbulleted list |'''United States:'''{{Bulleted list |178,800–223,800 total dead |6,800 killed |6,100 wounded |17,000 dead from disease&lt;ref name=&quot;oLlYw&quot;&gt;[[#burrows2008a|Burrows 2008a]], &quot;Patriots or Terrorists&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; |25,000–70,000 war dead&lt;ref name=&quot;FFKG4&quot;&gt;[[#peckham74|Peckham (ed.) 1974]]&lt;/ref&gt; |130,000 dead from smallpox&lt;ref name=&quot;2D11O&quot;&gt;[[#clodfelter2017|Clodfelter 2017]], pp. 133–134&lt;/ref&gt;}} |'''France:'''{{Bulleted list |2,112 killed– &lt;small&gt;East Coast&lt;/small&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;ApKKb&quot;&gt;[[#CITEREFRignault2004|Rignault 2004]], pp. 20, 53&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|1=Beyond the 2112 deaths recorded by the French Government fighting for U.S. independence, additional men died fighting Britain in a war waged by France, Spain, and the Dutch Republic from 1778 to 1784, &quot;overseas&quot; from the American Revolution as posited by a British scholar{{specify|date=July 2022}} in his &quot;War of the American Revolution&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;yt8Dp&quot;&gt;[[#clodfelter2017|Clodfelter 2017]], pp. 75, 135&lt;/ref&gt;}}}} |'''Spain:'''{{Bulleted list |371 killed – W. Florida&lt;ref name=&quot;gZqKm&quot;&gt;[[#otfinoski|Otfinoski 2008]], p. 16&lt;/ref&gt; |4,000 dead – prisoners&lt;ref name=&quot;QEJS2&quot;&gt;[[#roy2006|Archuleta 2006]], p. 69&lt;/ref&gt;}} |'''Native Americans:''' Unknown }} | casualties2 = {{Unbulleted list |'''Great Britain:'''{{Bulleted list |8,500 killed&lt;ref name=&quot;3kb8Q&quot;&gt;[[#clodfelter2017|Clodfelter 2017]], p. 134&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|Clodfelter reports that the total deaths among the British and their allies numbered 15,000 killed in battle or died of wounds. These included estimates of 3000 Germans, 3000 Loyalists and Canadians, 3000 lost at sea, and 500 Native Americans killed in battle or died of wounds.&lt;ref name=&quot;2D11O&quot; /&gt;}}}} |'''Germans:'''{{Bulleted list |7,774 total dead |1,800 killed |4,888 deserted&lt;ref name=&quot;duncan371&quot; /&gt;}} |'''[[Loyalist (American Revolution)|Loyalists]]:'''{{Bulleted list |7,000 total dead |1,700 killed |5,300 dead from disease&lt;ref name=&quot;SlCBl&quot;&gt;[[#burrows2008b|Burrows 2008b]], ''Forgotten Patriots''&lt;/ref&gt;}} |'''Native Americans'''{{Bulleted list |500 total dead&lt;ref name=&quot;2D11O&quot; /&gt;}} }} | campaignbox = {{Campaignbox American Revolutionary War}} }} &lt;!-- Please do not make any major edits to the lead, as it was agreed upon by consensus on the talk page. Please discuss if you wish to change it. --&gt; The '''American Revolutionary War''' (April 19, 1775 – September 3, 1783), also known as the '''Revolutionary War''' or '''American War of Independence''', was an armed conflict that was part of the broader [[American Revolution]], in which American [[Patriot (American Revolution)|Patriot]] forces organized as the [[Continental Army]] and commanded by [[George Washington]] defeated the [[British Army during the American Revolutionary War|British Army]]. The conflict was fought in [[North America]], the [[Caribbean]], and the [[Atlantic Ocean]]. The war ended with the [[Treaty of Paris (1783)]], which resulted in [[Kingdom of Great Britain|Great Britain]] ultimately recognizing the independence and [[sovereign state|sovereignty]] of the United States. After the [[British Empire]] gained dominance in North America with victory over the French in the [[Seven Years' War]] in 1763, tensions and disputes arose between Great Britain and the [[Thirteen Colonies]] over a variety of issues, including the [[Stamp Act 1765|Stamp]] and [[Townshend Acts]]. The resulting British military occupation led to the [[Boston Massacre]] in 1770. Among further tensions, the British Parliament imposed the [[Intolerable Acts]] in mid-1774. A British attempt to disarm the Americans and the resulting [[Battles of Lexington and Concord]] in April 1775 ignited the war. In June, the [[Second Continental Congress]] formalized Patriot militias into the [[Continental Army]] and appointed Washington its commander-in-chief. The British Parliament declared the colonies to be in a [[Proclamation of Rebellion|state of rebellion]] in August 1775. The stakes of the war were formalized with passage of the [[Lee Resolution]] by the Congress in Philadelphia on July 2, 1776, and the unanimous ratification of the [[United States Declaration of Independence|Declaration of Independence]] two days later, on July 4, 1776. After a [[Siege of Boston|successful siege]], Washington's forces drove the [[British Army]] out of Boston in March 1776, and British commander in chief [[William Howe, 5th Viscount Howe|William Howe]] responded by launching the [[New York and New Jersey campaign]]. Howe captured New York City in November. Washington responded by [[George Washington's crossing of the Delaware River|clandestinely crossing]] the [[Delaware River]] and winning small but significant victories at [[Battle of Trenton|Trenton]] and [[Battle of Princeton|Princeton]]. In the summer of 1777, as Howe was poised to capture [[Philadelphia campaign|Philadelphia]], the Continental Congress fled to [[Baltimore]]. In October 1777, a separate northern British force under the command of [[John Burgoyne]] was forced to surrender at [[Battles of Saratoga|Saratoga]] in an American victory that proved crucial in convincing France and Spain that an independent United States was a viable possibility. France signed a [[Treaty of Amity and Commerce (France–United States)|commercial agreement]] with the rebels, followed by a [[Treaty of Alliance (1778)|Treaty of Alliance]] in February 1778. In 1779, the [[Sullivan Expedition]] undertook a [[scorched earth]] campaign against the Iroquois who were largely allied with the British. Indian raids on the American frontier, however, continued to be a problem. Also, in 1779, Spain allied with France against Great Britain in the [[Treaty of Aranjuez (1779)|Treaty of Aranjuez]], though Spain did not formally ally with the Americans. Howe's replacement [[Henry Clinton (British Army officer, born 1730)|Henry Clinton]] intended to take the war against the Americans into the [[Southern Colonies]]. Despite some initial success, British general [[Charles Cornwallis, 1st Marquess Cornwallis|Cornwallis]] was besieged by a Franco-American force in [[Siege of Yorktown (1781)|Yorktown]] in September and October 1781. Cornwallis was forced to surrender in October. The British wars with France and Spain continued for another two years, but fighting largely ceased in North America. In the Treaty of Paris, ratified on September 3, 1783, Great Britain acknowledged the sovereignty and independence of the United States, bringing the American Revolutionary War to an end. The [[Peace of Paris (1783)|Treaties of Versailles]] resolved Great Britain's conflicts with [[Anglo-French War (1778–1783)|France]] and [[Spain and the American Revolutionary War|Spain]] and forced Great Britain to cede [[Tobago]], [[Senegal]], and small territories in [[India]] to France, and [[Invasion of Minorca (1781)|Menorca]], [[West Florida]] and [[East Florida]] to Spain.&lt;ref&gt;Lawrence S. Kaplan, &quot;The Treaty of Paris, 1783: A Historiographical Challenge&quot;, ''International History Review,'' Sept 1983, Vol. 5 Issue 3, pp 431–442&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;9w1sv&quot;&gt;[[#wallaceray2015|Wallace 2015]], &quot;American Revolution&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; ==Prelude to revolution== {{Main|American Revolution}} {{Further|American Enlightenment|Colonial history of the United States|Thirteen Colonies}} [[File:NorthAmerica1762-83.png|thumb|alt=MAP of the 1763 Treaty of Paris claims in North America by the British and Spanish. The British claim east of the Mississippi River, including the Floridas ceded by Spain, and the previous French North America along the St. Lawrence River, west through the Great Lakes, and southerly along the east bank of the Mississippi River. Spanish claims added French cessions from French Louisiana east to the Mississippi River.|Map showing the territorial gains of [[Kingdom of Great Britain|Great Britain]] and [[Spanish Empire|Spain]] following the [[French and Indian War]] with lands held by the British prior to 1763 (in red), land gained by Britain in 1763 (in pink), and lands ceded to the [[History of Spain (1700–1808)|Kingdom of Spain]] in secret during 1762 (in light yellow).]] The French and Indian War, part of the wider global conflict known as the [[Seven Years' War]], ended with the [[Peace of Paris (1763)|1763 Peace of Paris]], which expelled [[French colonial empire|France]] from their possessions in [[New France]].&lt;ref name=&quot;wtW8l&quot;&gt;[[#calloway2007|Calloway 2007]], p. 4&lt;/ref&gt; Acquisition of territories in [[Atlantic Canada]] and [[West Florida]], inhabited largely by French and Spanish-speaking [[Catholic Church|Catholics]], led British authorities to consolidate their hold by populating them with English-speaking settlers. Preventing conflict between settlers and [[Native Americans in the United States|Indian tribes]] west of the [[Appalachian Mountains]] also avoided the cost of an expensive military occupation.{{Sfn|Lass|1980|p=3}} The [[Royal Proclamation of 1763]] was designed to achieve these aims by refocusing colonial expansion north into [[Nova Scotia]] and south into [[Florida]], with the [[Mississippi River]] as the dividing line between British and [[Spanish Empire|Spanish]] possessions in America. Settlement was tightly restricted beyond the 1763 limits, and claims west of this line, including by [[Colony of Virginia|Virginia]] and [[Province of Massachusetts Bay|Massachusetts]], were rescinded despite the fact that each colony argued that their boundaries extended from the Atlantic Ocean to the [[Pacific Ocean]].{{Sfn|Lass|1980|p=3}} The vast exchange of territory ultimately destabilized existing alliances and trade networks between settlers and Indians in the west, while it proved impossible to prevent encroachment beyond the Proclamation Line.{{Sfn|Lass|1980|p=4}} With the exception of Virginia and others deprived of rights to western lands, the [[Colonial government in the Thirteen Colonies|colonial legislatures]] agreed on the boundaries but disagreed on where to set them. Many settlers resented the restrictions entirely, and enforcement required permanent garrisons along the frontier, which led to increasingly bitter disputes over who should pay for them.&lt;ref name=&quot;pb2Zp&quot;&gt;[[#calloway2007|Calloway 2007]], p. 12&lt;/ref&gt; ===Taxation and legislation=== {{Further|Boston Tea Party|Pine Tree Riot}} Although directly administered by [[the Crown]], acting through a local governor, the colonies were largely governed by native-born property owners. While external affairs were managed by London, colonial [[Militia (United States)|militia]] were funded locally but with the ending of the French threat in 1763, the legislatures expected less taxation, not more. At the same time, the huge debt incurred by the Seven Years' War and demands from British taxpayers for cuts in government expenditure meant [[Parliament of Great Britain|Parliament]] expected the colonies to fund their own defense.&lt;ref name=&quot;pb2Zp&quot; /&gt; The new taxes levied on subjects in the colonies proved highly burdensome in colonies such as [[Province of North Carolina|North Carolina]], particularly for the poorer classes, and quickly became a source of much discontent.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Kay |first=Marvin L. Michael |date=April 1969 |title=The Payment of Provincial and Local Taxes in North Carolina, 1748–1771 |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/1918676 |journal=[[The William and Mary Quarterly]] |volume=26 |issue=2 |pages=218–240 |doi=10.2307/1918676 |jstor=1918676 |access-date=1 September 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; The 1763 to 1765 [[Grenville ministry]] instructed the [[History of the Royal Navy (after 1707)|Royal Navy]] to cease trading smuggled goods and enforce customs duties levied in American ports.&lt;ref name=&quot;pb2Zp&quot; /&gt; The most important was the 1733 [[Molasses Act]]; routinely ignored before 1763, it had a significant economic impact since 85% of New England rum exports were manufactured from imported molasses. These measures were followed by the [[Sugar Act]] and [[Stamp Act]], which imposed additional taxes on the colonies to pay for defending the western frontier.&lt;ref name=&quot;4R8zt&quot;&gt;[[#watsonclark|Watson and Clark 1960]], pp. 183–184&lt;/ref&gt; In July 1765, the [[Whigs (British political party)|Whigs]] formed the [[First Rockingham ministry]], which repealed the Stamp Act and reduced tax on foreign molasses to help the New England economy, but re-asserted Parliamentary authority in the [[Declaratory Act]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Leqka&quot;&gt;[[#watsonclark|Watson and Clark 1960]], pp. 116, 187&lt;/ref&gt; However, this did little to end the discontent; in 1768, a riot started in Boston when the authorities seized the sloop ''[[HMS Liberty (1768)|Liberty]]'' on suspicion of smuggling.&lt;ref name=&quot;sImY5&quot;&gt;[[#morgan2012|Morgan 2012]], p. 40&lt;/ref&gt; Tensions escalated further in March 1770 when British troops fired on rock-throwing civilians, killing five in what became known as the [[Boston Massacre]].&lt;ref name=&quot;kIDxS&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], p. 23&lt;/ref&gt; The Massacre coincided with the partial repeal of the [[Townshend Acts]] by the Tory-based [[North Ministry]], which came to power in January 1770 and remained in office until 1781. North insisted on retaining duty on tea to enshrine Parliament's right to tax the colonies; the amount was minor, but ignored the fact it was that very principle Americans found objectionable.&lt;ref name=&quot;HdjZT&quot;&gt;[[#morgan2012|Morgan 2012]], p. 52&lt;/ref&gt; In April 1772, colonialists staged the first American tax revolt in [[Weare, New Hampshire|Weare]], [[New Hampshire]] against the British royal authority later referred to as the [[Pine Tree Riot]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=The Weare NH Historical Society |url=http://wearehistoricalsociety.org/pineriot.php |access-date=2024-07-01 |website=wearehistoricalsociety.org}}&lt;/ref&gt; This occurrence would later inspire the design of the [[Pine Tree Flag]]. Tensions escalated following the destruction of a customs vessel in the June 1772 [[Gaspee Affair]], then came to a head in 1773. A [[Crisis of 1772|banking crisis]] led to the near-collapse of the [[East India Company]], which dominated the British economy; to support it, Parliament passed the [[Tea Act]], giving it a trading monopoly in the [[Thirteen Colonies]]. Since most American tea was smuggled by the Dutch, the act was opposed by those who managed the illegal trade, while being seen as yet another attempt to impose the principle of taxation by Parliament.&lt;ref name=&quot;oTpsv&quot;&gt;[[#jgreene2008|Greene &amp; Pole 2008]], pp. 155–156&lt;/ref&gt; In December 1773, a group called the [[Sons of Liberty]] disguised as [[Mohawk people|Mohawk]] natives dumped 342 crates of tea into the [[Boston Harbor]], an event later known as the [[Boston Tea Party]]. The British Parliament responded by passing the so-called [[Intolerable Acts]], aimed specifically at Massachusetts, although many colonists and members of the Whig opposition considered them a threat to liberty in general. This led to increased sympathy for the [[Patriot (American Revolution)|Patriot]] cause locally, in the British Parliament, and in the London press.&lt;ref name=&quot;t3NFX&quot;&gt;[[#ammerman|Ammerman 1974]], p. 15&lt;/ref&gt; ===Break with the British Crown=== {{Further|Battles of Lexington and Concord|First Continental Congress}} Throughout the 18th century, the [[Colonial government in the Thirteen Colonies#Assembly|elected lower houses]] in the colonial legislatures gradually wrested power from their governors.&lt;ref name=&quot;0pRKw&quot;&gt;[[#olsen1992|Olsen 1992]], pp. 543–544&lt;/ref&gt; Dominated by smaller landowners and merchants, these assemblies now established ad-hoc provincial legislatures, variously called congresses, conventions, and conferences, effectively replacing royal control. With the exception of [[Province of Georgia|Georgia]], twelve colonies sent representatives to the [[First Continental Congress]] to agree on a unified response to the crisis.&lt;ref name=&quot;0j3B4&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2003|Ferling 2003]], p. 112&lt;/ref&gt; Many of the delegates feared that an all-out boycott would result in war and sent a [[Petition to the King]] calling for the repeal of the Intolerable Acts.&lt;ref name=&quot;BkMNP&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2015|Ferling 2015]], p. 102&lt;/ref&gt; However, after some debate, on September 17, 1774, Congress endorsed the Massachusetts [[Suffolk Resolves]] and on October 20 passed the [[Continental Association]]; based on a draft prepared by the [[First Virginia Convention]] in August, the association instituted [[economic sanctions]] and a full boycott of goods against Britain.&lt;ref name=&quot;yBXBu&quot;&gt;[[#jgreene2008|Greene &amp; Pole 2008]], p. 199&lt;/ref&gt; While denying its authority over internal American affairs, a faction led by [[James Duane]] and future [[Loyalist (American Revolution)|Loyalist]] [[Joseph Galloway]] insisted Congress recognize Parliament's right to regulate colonial trade.&lt;ref name=&quot;yBXBu&quot; /&gt;{{Efn|&quot;Resolved, 4. That the foundation of English liberty, and of all free government, is a right in the people to participate in their legislative council: ... they are entitled to a free and exclusive power of legislation in their several provincial legislatures, where their right of representation can alone be preserved, in all cases of taxation and internal polity, subject only to the negative of their sovereign, ...: But, ... we cheerfully consent to the operation of such acts of the British parliament, as are bonafide, restrained to the regulation of our external commerce, for the purpose of securing the commercial advantages of the whole empire to the mother country, and the commercial benefits of its respective members; excluding every idea of taxation internal or external, [without the consent of American subjects].&quot; quoted from the Declarations and Resolves of the First Continental Congress October 14, 1774.}} Expecting concessions by the North administration, Congress authorized the extralegal committees and conventions of the colonial legislatures to enforce the boycott; this succeeded in reducing British imports by 97% from 1774 to 1775.&lt;ref name=&quot;RVpda&quot;&gt;[[#kramnick82|Paine, Kramnick (Ed.) 1982]], p. 21&lt;/ref&gt; However, on February 9 Parliament declared Massachusetts to be in a state of rebellion and instituted a blockade of the colony.&lt;ref name=&quot;X94UC&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], pp. 62–64&lt;/ref&gt; In July, the [[Restraining Acts 1775|Restraining Acts]] limited colonial trade with the [[British West Indies]] and Britain and barred New England ships from the [[History of Newfoundland and Labrador#Fishing|Newfoundland cod fisheries]]. The increase in tension led to a scramble for control of militia stores, which each assembly was legally obliged to maintain for defense.&lt;ref name=&quot;JNwEc&quot;&gt;[[#axelrod2009|Axelrod 2009]], p. 83&lt;/ref&gt; On April 19, a British attempt to secure the Concord arsenal culminated in the [[Battles of Lexington and Concord]], which began the Revolutionary War.&lt;ref name=&quot;Ng1sv&quot;&gt;[[#fischer2004|Fischer, D. 2004]], p. 76&lt;/ref&gt; ===Political reactions=== {{Main|Olive Branch Petition}} [[File:Declaration of Independence (1819), by John Trumbull.jpg|thumb|alt=The artist's recreation of the Declaration signing with portraits of the entire Second Congress, as though all members were present. The Committee of Five are standing centered together presenting a parchment on the table.|The [[Committee of Five]], who were charged with drafting the [[United States Declaration of Independence|Declaration of Independence]], including (from left to right): [[John Adams]] (chair), [[Roger Sherman]], [[Robert R. Livingston (chancellor)|Robert Livingston]], [[Thomas Jefferson]] (the Declaration's principal author), and [[Benjamin Franklin]]]] After the Patriot victory at Concord, moderates in Congress led by [[John Dickinson]] drafted the [[Olive Branch Petition]], offering to accept royal authority in return for George III mediating in the dispute.&lt;ref name=&quot;nessy25&quot;&gt;[[#nessy|O'Shaughnessy 2013]], p. 25&lt;/ref&gt; However, since the petition was immediately followed by the [[Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms]], Colonial Secretary [[William Legge, 2nd Earl of Dartmouth|Lord Dartmouth]] viewed the offer as insincere; he refused to present the petition to the king, which was therefore rejected in early September.&lt;ref name=&quot;NXP0A&quot;&gt;[[#brown41|Brown 1941]], pp. 29–31&lt;/ref&gt; Although constitutionally correct, since George could not oppose his own government, it disappointed those Americans who hoped he would mediate in the dispute, while the hostility of his language annoyed even Loyalist members of Congress.&lt;ref name=&quot;nessy25&quot; /&gt; Combined with the [[Proclamation of Rebellion]], issued on August 23 in response to the [[Battle of Bunker Hill|Battle at Bunker Hill]], it ended hopes of a peaceful settlement.&lt;ref name=&quot;ketchum211&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum2014a|Ketchum 2014a]], p. 211&lt;/ref&gt; Backed by the Whigs, Parliament initially rejected the imposition of coercive measures by 170 votes, fearing an aggressive policy would simply drive the Americans towards independence.&lt;ref name=&quot;maier25&quot;&gt;[[#maier1998|Maier 1998]], p. 25&lt;/ref&gt; However, by the end of 1774 the collapse of British authority meant both Lord North and George III were convinced war was inevitable.&lt;ref name=&quot;fFVBS&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2003|Ferling 2003]], pp. 123–124&lt;/ref&gt; After Boston, Gage halted operations and awaited reinforcements; the [[Parliament of Ireland|Irish Parliament]] approved the recruitment of new regiments, while allowing Catholics to enlist for the first time.&lt;ref name=&quot;lecky162-165&quot;&gt;[[#lecky3|Lecky 1892]], vol. 3, pp. 162–165&lt;/ref&gt; Britain also signed a series of treaties with German states to supply [[Hessian (soldier)|additional troops]].&lt;ref name=&quot;davenport132-144&quot;&gt;[[#davenport1917|Davenport 1917]], pp. 132–144&lt;/ref&gt; Within a year, it had an army of over 32,000 men in America, the largest ever sent outside Europe at the time.&lt;ref name=&quot;smith21-23&quot;&gt;[[#smithD2012|Smith, D. 2012]], pp. 21–23&lt;/ref&gt; The employment of German soldiers against people viewed as British citizens was opposed by many in Parliament and by the colonial assemblies; combined with the lack of activity by Gage, opposition to the use of foreign troops allowed the Patriots to take control of the legislatures.&lt;ref name=&quot;miller410&quot;&gt;[[#miller1959|Miller, J. 1959]], pp. 410–412&lt;/ref&gt; ===Declaration of Independence=== {{Main|United States Declaration of Independence}} Support for independence was boosted by [[Thomas Paine]]'s pamphlet ''[[Common Sense (pamphlet)|Common Sense]]'', which was published on January 10, 1776, and argued for American self-government and was widely reprinted.&lt;ref name=&quot;maier33-34&quot;&gt;[[#maier1998|Maier 1998]], pp. 33–34&lt;/ref&gt; To draft the [[United States Declaration of Independence|Declaration of Independence]], the [[Second Continental Congress]] appointed the [[Committee of Five]]: [[Thomas Jefferson]], [[John Adams]], [[Benjamin Franklin]], [[Roger Sherman]], and [[Robert Livingston (chancellor)|Robert Livingston]].&lt;ref name=&quot;mccullough119&quot;&gt;[[#mccullough2005|McCullough 2005]], pp. 119–122&lt;/ref&gt; The declaration was written almost exclusively by Jefferson.&lt;ref&gt;[https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/independence-dechousehistory.htm &quot;The Declaration House Through Time&quot;], National Park Services&lt;/ref&gt; Identifying inhabitants of the Thirteen Colonies as &quot;one people&quot;, the declaration simultaneously dissolved political links with Britain, while including a long list of alleged violations of &quot;English rights&quot; committed by [[George III]]. This is also one of the first times that the colonies were referred to as &quot;United States&quot;, rather than the more common [[United Colonies]].&lt;ref name=&quot;ferling112&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], pp. 112, 118&lt;/ref&gt; On July 2, Congress voted for independence and published the declaration on July 4.&lt;ref name=&quot;R0xyC&quot;&gt;[[#maier1998|Maier 1998]], pp. 160–161&lt;/ref&gt; At this point, the revolution ceased to be an internal dispute over trade and tax policies and had evolved into a civil war, since each state represented in Congress was engaged in a struggle with Britain, but also split between American Patriots and American Loyalists.&lt;ref name=&quot;IE7Bq&quot;&gt;[[#mays2019|Mays 2019]], p. 2&lt;/ref&gt; Patriots generally supported independence from Britain and a new national union in Congress, while Loyalists remained faithful to British rule. Estimates of numbers vary, one suggestion being the population as a whole was split evenly between committed Patriots, committed Loyalists, and those who were indifferent.&lt;ref name=&quot;DEcPu&quot;&gt;[[#mays2019|Mays 2019]], p. 3&lt;/ref&gt; Others calculate the split as 40% Patriot, 40% neutral, 20% Loyalist, but with considerable regional variations.&lt;ref name=&quot;Greene p. 235&quot;&gt;[[#jgreene2008|Greene &amp; Pole 2008]], p. 235&lt;/ref&gt; At the onset of the war, the Second Continental Congress realized defeating Britain required foreign alliances and intelligence-gathering. The [[Committee of Secret Correspondence]] was formed for &quot;the sole purpose of corresponding with our friends in Great Britain and other parts of the world&quot;. From 1775 to 1776, the committee shared information and built alliances through secret correspondence, as well as employing secret agents in Europe to gather intelligence, conduct undercover operations, analyze foreign publications, and initiate Patriot propaganda campaigns.&lt;ref name=&quot;cia2007&quot;&gt;[[#amintelrev|CIA 2007]], &quot;Intelligence Until WWII&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; Paine served as secretary, while Benjamin Franklin and [[Silas Deane]], sent to France to recruit military engineers,&lt;ref&gt;[[#clary2007|Clary, 2007]], pp. 86–87&lt;/ref&gt; were instrumental in securing French aid in Paris.&lt;ref name=&quot;rose43&quot;&gt;[[#alexrose|Rose A. 2014]]&amp;nbsp;[2006], p. 43&lt;/ref&gt; ==War breaks out== The Revolutionary War included two principal campaign theaters within the Thirteen Colonies&amp;mdash;the [[Northern theater of the American Revolutionary War|Northern Theater]] and the [[Southern theater of the American Revolutionary War|Southern Theater]]&amp;mdash;and a smaller but strategically important third one [[Western theater of the American Revolutionary War|west of the Appalachian Mountains]].&lt;ref name=&quot;EiVQB&quot;&gt;[[#mays2019|Mays 2019]], p. 8&lt;/ref&gt; ===Early engagements=== {{Further|Battles of Lexington and Concord|Shot heard round the world}} [[File:Canadian militiamen and British soldiers repulse the American assault at Sault-au-Matelot.jpg|thumb|alt=Snow-covered street fighting of British and Tory Provincials repulsing an American assault|The British repulse a [[Continental Army]] attack at the [[Battle of Quebec (1775)|Battle of Quebec]] in December 1775]] [[File:Battle_of_Sullivans_Island.jpg|thumb|alt=Continental Sergeant [[William Jasper]] of the 2nd South Carolina Regiment, on a parapet raising the fort's South Carolina Revolutionary flag with its white crescent moon.|Sergeant [[William Jasper]] of the [[2nd South Carolina Regiment]] raises the fort's flag at the [[Battle of Sullivan's Island]] in [[Charleston, South Carolina]], in June 1776]] On April 14, 1775, Sir [[Thomas Gage]], [[Commander-in-Chief, North America]] and [[List of colonial governors of Massachusetts|Governor of Massachusetts]], received orders to take action against the Patriots. He decided to destroy militia ordnance stored at [[Concord, Massachusetts]], and capture [[John Hancock]] and [[Samuel Adams]], who were considered the principal instigators of the rebellion. The operation was to begin around midnight on April 19, in the hope of completing it before the American Patriots could respond.&lt;ref name=&quot;oSWXd&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling, 2007]], p. 29&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;icqWN&quot;&gt;Fischer, p. 85&lt;/ref&gt; However, [[Paul Revere]] learned of the plan and notified Captain [[John Parker (captain)|Parker]], commander of the [[Concord, Massachusetts|Concord]] militia, who prepared to resist.&lt;ref name=&quot;Q5xrq&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], pp. 129–19{{page needed|date=June 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; The first action of the war, commonly referred to as the [[shot heard round the world]], was a brief skirmish at Lexington, followed by the full-scale Battles of Lexington and Concord. British troops suffered around 300 casualties before withdrawing to [[Boston]], which was then [[Siege of Boston|besieged]] by the militia.&lt;ref name=&quot;Hyy3u&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum2014a|Ketchum 2014a]], pp. 18, 54&lt;/ref&gt; In May 1775, 4,500 British reinforcements arrived under Generals [[William Howe, 5th Viscount Howe|William Howe]], [[John Burgoyne]], and [[Henry Clinton (American War of Independence)|Sir Henry Clinton]].&lt;ref name=&quot;lSvP0&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum2014a|Ketchum 2014a]], pp. 2–9&lt;/ref&gt; On June 17, they seized the [[Charlestown Peninsula]] at the [[Battle of Bunker Hill]], a frontal assault in which they suffered over 1,000 casualties.&lt;ref name=&quot;TZZpb&quot;&gt;[[#higginbotham1983|Higginbotham 1983]]&amp;nbsp;[1971], pp. 75–77&lt;/ref&gt; Dismayed at the costly attack which had gained them little,&lt;ref name=&quot;jP5Oe&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum2014a|Ketchum 2014a]], pp. 183, 198–209&lt;/ref&gt; Gage appealed to London for a larger army,&lt;ref name=&quot;ktPiL&quot;&gt;[[#rankin|Rankin 1987]], p. 63&lt;/ref&gt; but instead was replaced as commander by Howe.&lt;ref name=&quot;TZZpb&quot; /&gt; On June 14, 1775, Congress took control of Patriot forces outside Boston, and Congressional leader John Adams nominated Washington as commander-in-chief of the newly formed [[Continental Army]].&lt;ref name=&quot;nXlAp&quot;&gt;[[#chernow2010|Chernow, 2010]], p. 186&lt;/ref&gt; On June 16, Hancock officially proclaimed him &quot;General and Commander in Chief of the army of the United Colonies.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;Nx1rV&quot;&gt;[[#chernow2010|Chernow, 2010]], p. 187&lt;/ref&gt; He assumed command on July 3, preferring to [[Fortification of Dorchester Heights|fortify Dorchester Heights]] outside Boston rather than assaulting it.&lt;ref name=&quot;CH6Xw&quot;&gt;[[#mccullough2005|McCullough 2005]], p. 53&lt;/ref&gt; In early March 1776, Colonel [[Henry Knox]] arrived with [[Noble train of artillery|heavy artillery]] acquired in the [[Capture of Fort Ticonderoga]].&lt;ref name=&quot;rFWWw&quot;&gt;[[#Frothingham|Frothingham 1903]], pp. 100–101&lt;/ref&gt; Under cover of darkness, on March 5, Washington placed these on Dorchester Heights,&lt;ref name=&quot;E7Y0J&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2003|Ferling 2003]], p. 183&lt;/ref&gt; from where they could fire on the town and British ships in Boston Harbor. Fearing another Bunker Hill, Howe evacuated the city on [[Evacuation Day (Massachusetts)|March 17]] without further loss and sailed to [[Halifax, Nova Scotia]], while Washington moved south to New York City.&lt;ref name=&quot;IDjnL&quot;&gt;[[#alden1969|Alden 1969]], pp. 188–190&lt;/ref&gt; Beginning in August 1775, [[Privateer#United States|American privateers]] raided towns in Nova Scotia, including [[Raid on St. John (1775)|Saint John]], [[Raid on Charlottetown (1775)|Charlottetown]], and [[Raid on Yarmouth, Nova Scotia (1775)|Yarmouth]]. In 1776, [[John Paul Jones]] and [[Jonathan Eddy]] attacked [[Raid on Canso (1776)|Canso]] and [[Battle of Fort Cumberland|Fort Cumberland]] respectively. British officials in [[Province of Quebec (1763–1791)|Quebec]] began negotiating with the [[Iroquois#American Revolution|Iroquois]] for their support,&lt;ref name=&quot;QwMwp&quot;&gt;[[#smith1907Ja|Smith, J. 1907]]&amp;nbsp;vol. 1, p. 293&lt;/ref&gt; while US envoys urged them to remain neutral.&lt;ref name=&quot;yGdMY&quot;&gt;[[#glatthaar|Glatthaar 2007]], pp. 91, 93&lt;/ref&gt; Aware of Native American leanings toward the British and fearing an Anglo-Indian attack from Canada, Congress authorized a second invasion in April 1775.&lt;ref name=&quot;eWWH5&quot;&gt;[[#jgreene2008|Greene &amp; Pole 2008]], pp. 504–505&lt;/ref&gt; After the defeat at the [[Battle of Quebec (1775)|Battle of Quebec]] on December 31,&lt;ref name=&quot;Jfxzh&quot;&gt;[[#randall'mhq|Randall 1990]], pp. 38–39&lt;/ref&gt; the Americans maintained a loose blockade of the city until they retreated on May 6, 1776.&lt;ref name=&quot;yYbsM&quot;&gt;[[#lanctot|Lanctot 1967]], pp. 141–246&lt;/ref&gt; A second defeat at [[Battle of Trois-Rivières|Trois-Rivières]] on June 8 ended operations in Quebec.&lt;ref name=&quot;qYcQ0&quot;&gt;[[#stanley|Stanley 2006]], pp. 127–128&lt;/ref&gt; British pursuit was initially blocked by American naval vessels on [[Lake Champlain]] until victory at [[Battle of Valcour Island|Valcour Island]] on October 11 forced the Americans to withdraw to [[Fort Ticonderoga]], while in December an uprising in Nova Scotia sponsored by Massachusetts was defeated at [[Battle of Fort Cumberland (1776)|Fort Cumberland]].&lt;ref name=&quot;84Tbw&quot;&gt;[[#smithJ1907a|Smith, J. 1907]]&amp;nbsp;vol. 1, p. 242&lt;/ref&gt; These failures impacted public support for the Patriot cause,&lt;ref name=&quot;MCw6s&quot;&gt;[[#watsonclark|Watson and Clark 1960]], p. 203&lt;/ref&gt; and aggressive anti-Loyalist policies in the [[New England colonies]] alienated the Canadians.&lt;ref name=&quot;ZFLSb&quot;&gt;[[#lefkowitz2007|Lefkowitz 2007]], pp. 264–265&lt;/ref&gt; In Virginia, [[Dunmore's Proclamation]] on November 7, 1775, promised freedom to any [[Slavery in the colonial United States|slaves]] who fled their Patriot masters and agreed to fight for the Crown.&lt;ref name=&quot;A8wFb&quot;&gt;[[#levy2007|Levy 2007]], p. 74&lt;/ref&gt; British forces were defeated at [[Battle of Great Bridge|Great Bridge]] on December 9 and took refuge on British ships anchored near Norfolk. When the [[Third Virginia Convention]] refused to disband its militia or accept martial law, [[John Murray, 4th Earl of Dunmore|Lord Dunmore]] ordered the [[Burning of Norfolk]] on January 1, 1776.&lt;ref name=&quot;1FC9n&quot;&gt;Russell 2000, p. 73&lt;/ref&gt; The [[siege of Savage's Old Fields]] began on November 19 in [[Province of South Carolina|South Carolina]] between Loyalist and Patriot militias,&lt;ref name=&quot;CdDYP&quot;&gt;[[#mccrady1775|McCrady 1901]], p. 89&lt;/ref&gt; and the Loyalists were subsequently driven out of the colony in the [[Snow Campaign]].&lt;ref name=&quot;3Ehts&quot;&gt;[[#landrum1897|Landrum 1897]], pp. 80–81&lt;/ref&gt; Loyalists were recruited in [[Province of North Carolina|North Carolina]] to reassert British rule in the South, but they were decisively defeated in the [[Battle of Moore's Creek Bridge]].&lt;ref name=&quot;ZWeHt&quot;&gt;[[#wilson2005|Wilson 2005]], p. 33&lt;/ref&gt; A British expedition sent to reconquer [[South Carolina in the American Revolution|South Carolina]] launched an attack on Charleston in the [[Battle of Sullivan's Island]] on June 28, 1776,&lt;ref name=&quot;efEyN&quot;&gt;[[#hibbert|Hibbert 2008]], p. 106&lt;/ref&gt; but it failed.&lt;ref name=&quot;LWF70&quot;&gt;[[#bicheno14|Bicheno 2014]], pp. 154, 158&lt;/ref&gt; A shortage of gunpowder led Congress to authorize a naval expedition against [[the Bahamas]] to secure ordnance stored there.&lt;ref name=&quot;field104&quot;&gt;[[#field|Field 1898]], p. 104&lt;/ref&gt; On March 3, 1776, an American squadron under the command of Esek Hopkins landed at the east end of [[Raid of Nassau|Nassau]] and encountered minimal resistance at [[Fort Montagu]]. Hopkins' troops then marched on [[Old Fort of Nassau|Fort Nassau]]. Hopkins had promised governor [[Montfort Browne]] and the civilian inhabitants that their lives and property would not be in any danger if they offered no resistance; they complied. Hopkins captured large stores of powder and other munitions that was so great he had to impress an extra ship in the harbor to transport the supplies back home, when he departed on March 17.&lt;ref name=&quot;field117-118&quot;&gt;[[#field|Field 1898]], pp. 114–118&lt;/ref&gt; A month later, after a [[Battle of Block Island|brief skirmish]] with {{HMS|Glasgow|1757|6}}, they returned to [[New London, Connecticut]], the base for American naval operations.&lt;ref name=&quot;I4JgD&quot;&gt;[[#field|Field 1898]], pp. 120–125&lt;/ref&gt; ===British New York counter-offensive=== {{Main|New York and New Jersey campaign}} {{Further|Battle of Fort Washington|Battle of Long Island}} [[File:Forcing a Passage of the Hudson.jpg|thumb|alt=Sailing ships on the Hudson River from afar, the scene emphases the two tall bluffs overlooking either side of the Hudson Narrows.|The British used [[the Narrows]], connecting [[Upper New York Bay|Upper]] and [[Lower New York Bay]], to isolate [[Fort Washington (Manhattan)|Fort Washington]] in the [[Battle of Fort Washington]] in November 1776.]] After regrouping at [[History of Halifax (former city)#The American Revolution|Halifax]] in Nova Scotia,&lt;ref name=&quot;86AtO&quot;&gt;[[#fischer2004|Fischer, D. 2004]], pp. 78–76&lt;/ref&gt; Howe set sail for [[New York (state)|New York]] in June 1776 and began landing troops on [[Staten Island]] near the entrance to [[New York Harbor]] on July 2. The Americans rejected Howe's informal attempt to negotiate peace on July 30;&lt;ref name=&quot;fu3mC&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum73|Ketchum 2014]]&amp;nbsp;[1973], p. 104&lt;/ref&gt; Washington knew that an attack on the city was imminent and realized that he needed advance information to deal with disciplined British regular troops. On August 12, 1776, Patriot [[Thomas Knowlton]] was ordered to form an elite group for reconnaissance and secret missions. [[Knowlton's Rangers]], which included [[Nathan Hale]], became the Army's first intelligence unit.&lt;ref name=&quot;mgY85&quot;&gt;[[#johnston1897|Johnston 1897]], p. 61&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|To learn when and where the attack would occur Washington asked for a volunteer among the Rangers to spy on activity behind enemy lines in [[Brooklyn]]. Young [[Nathan Hale]] stepped forward, but he was only able to provide Washington with nominal intelligence at that time.&lt;ref name=&quot;FLQKA&quot;&gt;[[#burke75|Burke 1975]], p. 134&lt;/ref&gt; On September 21, Hale was recognized in a [[New York City]] tavern, and was apprehended with maps and sketches of British fortifications and troop positions in his pockets. Howe ordered that he be summarily hung as a spy without trial the next day.&lt;ref name=&quot;lFweM&quot;&gt;[[#baker2014|Baker 2014]], Chap. 11&lt;/ref&gt;}} When Washington was driven off [[Long Island]], he soon realized that he would need to professionalize military intelligence. With aid from [[Benjamin Tallmadge]], Washington launched the six-man [[Culper Ring|Culper spy ring]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Baker 2014, Chap.12&quot;&gt;[[#baker2014|Baker 2014]], Chap. 12&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|Tallmadge's cover name became John Bolton, and he was the architect of the spy ring.&lt;ref name=&quot;Baker 2014, Chap.12&quot; /&gt;}} The efforts of Washington and the Culper Spy Ring substantially increased the effective allocation and deployment of Continental regiments in the field.&lt;ref name=&quot;Baker 2014, Chap.12&quot; /&gt; Throughout the war, Washington spent more than 10 percent of his total military funds on [[military intelligence]].&lt;ref name=&quot;w8uDs&quot;&gt;[[#cia|CIA 2011, Historical Document]]&lt;/ref&gt; Washington split the Continental Army into positions on [[Manhattan#American Revolution and the early United States|Manhattan]] and across the [[East River]] in western Long Island.&lt;ref name=&quot;QzdDu&quot;&gt;[[#fischer2004|Fischer, D. 2004]], pp. 89, 381&lt;/ref&gt; On August 27 at the [[Battle of Long Island]], Howe outflanked Washington and forced him back to [[Brooklyn Heights#Early settlement|Brooklyn Heights]], but he did not attempt to encircle Washington's forces.&lt;ref name=&quot;04huq&quot;&gt;[[#adams63|Adams 1963]]&amp;nbsp;[1895–96], p. 657&lt;/ref&gt; Through the night of August 28, Knox bombarded the British. Knowing they were up against overwhelming odds, Washington ordered the assembly of a war council on August 29; all agreed to retreat to Manhattan. Washington quickly had his troops assembled and ferried them across the East River to Manhattan on flat-bottomed [[Bateau|freight boats]] without any losses in men or ordnance, leaving General [[Thomas Mifflin]]'s regiments as a rearguard.&lt;ref name=&quot;2BFMO&quot;&gt;[[#mccullough2005|McCullough 2005]], pp. 184–186&lt;/ref&gt; Howe met with a delegation from the Second Continental Congress at the September [[Staten Island Peace Conference]], but it failed to conclude peace, largely because the British delegates only had the authority to offer pardons and could not recognize independence.&lt;ref name=&quot;4FsKF&quot;&gt;[[#mcguire2011|McGuire 2011]], pp. 165–166&lt;/ref&gt; On September 15, Howe seized control of New York City when the British [[Landing at Kip's Bay|landed at Kip's Bay]] and unsuccessfully engaged the Americans at the [[Battle of Harlem Heights]] the following day.&lt;ref name=&quot;5YPyI&quot;&gt;[[#fischer2004|Fischer, D. 2004]], pp. 102–107&lt;/ref&gt; On October 18, Howe failed to encircle the Americans at the [[Battle of Pell's Point]], and the Americans withdrew. Howe declined to close with Washington's army on October 28 at the [[Battle of White Plains]], and instead attacked a hill that was of no strategic value.&lt;ref name=&quot;baDUW&quot;&gt;[[#fischer2004|Fischer, D. 2004]], pp. 102–111&lt;/ref&gt; Washington's retreat isolated his remaining forces and the British captured [[Battle of Fort Washington|Fort Washington]] on November 16. The British victory there amounted to Washington's most disastrous defeat with the loss of 3,000 prisoners.&lt;ref name=&quot;iikrS&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum2014a|Ketchum 2014]]&amp;nbsp;[1973], pp. 111, 130&lt;/ref&gt; The remaining American regiments on Long Island fell back four days later.&lt;ref name=&quot;ImjPu&quot;&gt;[[#fischer2004|Fischer, D. 2004]], pp. 109–125&lt;/ref&gt; General [[Henry Clinton (British Army officer, born 1730)|Henry Clinton]] wanted to pursue Washington's disorganized army, but he was first required to commit 6,000 troops to capture [[History of Rhode Island#Revolutionary era, 1775–1790|Newport, Rhode Island]], to secure the Loyalist port.&lt;ref name=&quot;uekYy&quot;&gt;[[#mccullough2005|McCullough 2005]], p. 122&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|The American prisoners were subsequently sent to the [[Prisoners in the American Revolutionary War#Prison Ships|infamous prison ships]] in the [[East River]], where more American soldiers and sailors died of disease and neglect than died in every battle of the war combined.&lt;ref name=&quot;YCPdp&quot;&gt;[[#lowenthal2009|Lowenthal 2009]], pp. 61, 131&lt;/ref&gt;}} General [[Charles Cornwallis, 1st Marquess Cornwallis|Charles Cornwallis]] pursued Washington, but Howe ordered him to halt.&lt;ref name=&quot;1TXji&quot;&gt;[[#tucker2002|Tucker 2002]], pp. 22–23&lt;/ref&gt; The outlook following the defeat at Fort Washington appeared bleak for the American cause. The reduced Continental Army had dwindled to fewer than 5,000 men and was reduced further when enlistments expired at the end of the year.&lt;ref name=&quot;U9aPa&quot;&gt;[[#schecter|Schecter 2003]], pp. 266–267&lt;/ref&gt; Popular support wavered, and morale declined. On December 20, 1776, the Continental Congress abandoned the revolutionary capital of Philadelphia and moved to [[Baltimore]], where it remained until February 27, 1777.&lt;ref name=&quot;SpAkV&quot;&gt;[[#fischer2004|Fischer, D. 2004]], pp. 138–142&lt;/ref&gt; Loyalist activity surged in the wake of the American defeat, especially in [[History of New York (state)#New York in the American Revolution|New York state]].&lt;ref name=&quot;kPQRy&quot;&gt;[[#morris1965|Morris, R.B. Morris 1983 (1965)]], p. 139&lt;/ref&gt; In London, news of the victorious Long Island campaign was well received with festivities held in the capital. Public support reached a peak.&lt;ref name=&quot;sCNCR&quot;&gt;[[#mccullough2005|McCullough 2005]], p. 195&lt;/ref&gt; Strategic deficiencies among Patriot forces were evident: Washington divided a numerically weaker army in the face of a stronger one, his inexperienced staff misread the military situation, and American troops fled in the face of enemy fire. The successes led to predictions that the British could win within a year.&lt;ref name=&quot;bCOlv&quot;&gt;[[#adams63|Adams 1963]]&amp;nbsp;[1895–96], pp. 650–670&lt;/ref&gt; The British established winter quarters in the New York City area and anticipated renewed campaigning the following spring.&lt;ref name=&quot;w14iW&quot;&gt;[[#schecter|Schecter 2003]], pp. 259–263&lt;/ref&gt; ===Patriot resurgence=== {{Further|George Washington's crossing of the Delaware River|Battle of Trenton|Battle of Princeton}} [[File:Washington Crossing the Delaware by Emanuel Leutze, MMA-NYC, 1851.jpg|thumb|alt=Washington standing up in a freight boat crossing a windy river filled with winter chunks of ice.|''[[Washington Crossing the Delaware (1851 paintings)|Washington Crossing the Delaware]]'', an iconic 1851 [[Emanuel Leutze]] portrait depicting [[George Washington's crossing of the Delaware River|Washington's covert crossing of the Delaware River on December 25–26, 1776]]]] [[File:James Monroe (1758-1831).jpg|thumb|upright=1|[[James Monroe]], the last U.S. president to fight in the Revolutionary War as a [[Continental Army]] officer, took part in the [[George Washington's crossing of the Delaware River|crossing of the Delaware River]] and the [[Battle of Trenton]] alongside [[George Washington]]]] On the night of December 25–26, 1776, Washington [[George Washington's crossing of the Delaware River|crossed the Delaware River]], leading a column of Continental Army troops from today's [[Bucks County, Pennsylvania]], to today's [[Mercer County, New Jersey]], in a logistically challenging and dangerous operation. Meanwhile, the Hessians were involved in numerous clashes with small bands of Patriots and were often aroused by false alarms at night in the weeks before the actual [[Battle of Trenton]]. By Christmas they were tired, while a heavy snowstorm led their commander, Colonel [[Johann Rall]], to assume no significant attack would occur.&lt;ref&gt;[[#stryker1898|Stryker, 1898]], p. 122&lt;/ref&gt; At daybreak on the 26th, the American Patriots surprised and overwhelmed Rall and his troops, who lost over 20 killed including Rall,&lt;ref&gt;[[#fischer2006|Fischer, 2006]], pp. 248, 255&lt;/ref&gt; while 900 prisoners, German cannons and supplies were captured.&lt;ref name=&quot;QceAB&quot;&gt;[[#fischer2004|Fischer, D. 2004]], pp. 206–208, 254&lt;/ref&gt; The Battle of Trenton restored the American army's morale, reinvigorated the Patriot cause,&lt;ref name=&quot;mjfFg&quot;&gt;[[#wood1995|Wood 1995]], pp. 72–74&lt;/ref&gt; and dispelled their fear of what they regarded as Hessian &quot;mercenaries&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;yIUgZ&quot;&gt;[[#mauch2003|Mauch 2003]], p. 416&lt;/ref&gt; A British attempt to retake Trenton was repulsed at [[Battle of the Assunpink Creek|Assunpink Creek]] on January 2;&lt;ref name=&quot;GGEem&quot;&gt;[[#fischer2004|Fischer, D. 2004]], p. 307&lt;/ref&gt; during the night, Washington outmaneuvered Cornwallis, then defeated his rearguard in the [[Battle of Princeton]] the following day. The two victories helped convince the French that the Americans were worthy military allies.&lt;ref name=&quot;G2skh&quot;&gt;[[#mccullough2005|McCullough 2005]], p. 290&lt;/ref&gt; After his success at Princeton, Washington entered winter quarters at [[Morristown, New Jersey#Eighteenth century|Morristown, New Jersey]], where he remained until May&lt;ref name=&quot;sZDyW&quot;&gt;[[#lengel2005|Lengel 2005]], p. 208&lt;/ref&gt; and received Congressional direction to inoculate all Patriot troops against [[smallpox]].&lt;ref name=&quot;4ru2u&quot;&gt;[[#washington1932|Washington 1932]], &quot;Writings&quot; v. 7, pp. 38, 130–131&lt;/ref&gt;{{efn|The mandate came by way of Benjamin Rush, chair of the Medical Committee. Congress had directed that all troops who had not previously survived smallpox infection be inoculated. In explaining himself to state governors, Washington lamented that he had lost &quot;an army&quot; to smallpox in 1776 by the &quot;Natural way&quot; of immunity.&lt;ref name=&quot;fsQm0&quot;&gt;[[#washington1932|Washington 1932]], &quot;Writings&quot; v. 7, pp. 131, 130&lt;/ref&gt;}} With the exception of a [[Forage War|minor skirmishing]] between the two armies which continued until March,&lt;ref name=&quot;T0TSz&quot;&gt;[[#fischer2004|Fischer, D. 2004]], pp. 345–358&lt;/ref&gt; Howe made no attempt to attack the Americans.&lt;ref name=&quot;MdrQi&quot;&gt;[[#lecky4|Lecky 1891]]&amp;nbsp;Vol. 4, p. 57&lt;/ref&gt; ===British northern strategy fails=== {{Further|Saratoga campaign|Philadelphia campaign|Valley Forge}} [[File:Burgoyne's March on Albany, 1777.svg|thumb|[[Saratoga campaign]] maneuvers and (inset) the [[Battles of Saratoga]] in September and October 1777]] The 1776 campaign demonstrated that regaining [[New England]] would be a prolonged affair, which led to a change in British strategy to isolating the north by taking control of the [[Hudson River]], allowing them to focus on the south where Loyalist support was believed to be substantial.&lt;ref name=&quot;RnTHY&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum97|Ketchum 1997]], pp. 79–80&lt;/ref&gt; In December 1776, Howe wrote to the Colonial Secretary [[George Germain, 1st Viscount Sackville|Lord Germain]], proposing a limited offensive against Philadelphia, while a second force moved down the Hudson from Canada.&lt;ref name=&quot;FD6xX&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum97|Ketchum 1997]], pp. 81–82&lt;/ref&gt; Burgoyne supplied several alternatives, all of which gave him responsibility for the offensive, with Howe remaining on the defensive. The option selected required him to lead the main force south from [[Montreal]] down the Hudson Valley, while a detachment under [[Barry St. Leger]] moved east from Lake Ontario. The two would meet at [[History of Albany, New York (1664–1784)#1744−American Revolution|Albany]], leaving Howe to decide whether to join them.&lt;ref name=&quot;qw8y4&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum97|Ketchum 1997]], p. 84&lt;/ref&gt; Reasonable in principle, this did not account for the logistical difficulties involved and Burgoyne erroneously assumed Howe would remain on the defensive; Germain's failure to make this clear meant he opted to attack [[Philadelphia campaign|Philadelphia]] instead.&lt;ref name=&quot;UlroQ&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum97|Ketchum 1997]], pp. 85–86&lt;/ref&gt; Burgoyne set out on June 14, 1777, with a mixed force of British regulars, professional German soldiers and Canadian militia, and [[Siege of Fort Ticonderoga (1777)|captured Fort Ticonderoga]] on July 5. As General [[Horatio Gates]] retreated, his troops blocked roads, destroyed bridges, dammed streams, and stripped the area of food.&lt;ref name=&quot;KjViH&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum97|Ketchum 1997]], pp. 244–249&lt;/ref&gt; This slowed Burgoyne's progress and forced him to send out large foraging expeditions; on one of these, more than 700 British troops were captured at the [[Battle of Bennington]] on August 16.&lt;ref name=&quot;BNFDD&quot;&gt;[[#gabriel2012|Gabriel 2012]], p. x&lt;/ref&gt; St Leger moved east and besieged [[Siege of Fort Stanwix|Fort Stanwix]]; despite defeating an American relief force at the [[Battle of Oriskany]] on August 6, he was abandoned by his Indian allies and withdrew to Quebec on August 22.&lt;ref name=&quot;SzR6M&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum97|Ketchum 1997]], p. 332&lt;/ref&gt; Now isolated and outnumbered by Gates, Burgoyne continued onto Albany rather than retreating to Fort Ticonderoga, reaching [[Saratoga, New York|Saratoga]] on September 13. He asked Clinton for support while constructing defenses around the town.&lt;ref name=&quot;VbMeB&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum97|Ketchum 1997]], pp. 337–339&lt;/ref&gt; Morale among his troops rapidly declined, and an unsuccessful attempt to break past Gates at the [[Battles of Saratoga#First Saratoga|Battle of Freeman Farms]] on September 19 resulted in 600 British casualties.&lt;ref name=&quot;xIkVK&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum97|Ketchum 1997]], pp. 368–369&lt;/ref&gt; When Clinton advised he could not reach them, Burgoyne's subordinates advised retreat; a [[reconnaissance in force]] on October 7 was repulsed by Gates at the [[Battles of Saratoga#Second Saratoga|Battle of Bemis Heights]], forcing them back into Saratoga with heavy losses. By October 11, all hope of escape had vanished; persistent rain reduced the camp to a &quot;squalid hell&quot; and supplies were dangerously low.&lt;ref name=&quot;MRVwq&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling, 2007]], pp. 238–239&lt;/ref&gt; Burgoyne capitulated on October 17; around 6,222 soldiers, including German forces commanded by General [[Friedrich Adolf Riedesel]], surrendered their arms before being taken to Boston, where they were to be transported to England.&lt;ref name=&quot;G36uo&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum97|Ketchum 1997]], pp. 421–424&lt;/ref&gt; After securing additional supplies, Howe made another attempt on Philadelphia by landing his troops in [[Chesapeake Bay]] on August 24.&lt;ref name=&quot;V3zgZ&quot;&gt;[[#stedman1|Stedman 1794, Vol. 1]], pp. 317–319&lt;/ref&gt; He now compounded failure to support Burgoyne by missing repeated opportunities to destroy his opponent, defeating Washington at the [[Battle of Brandywine]] on September 11, then allowing him to withdraw in good order.&lt;ref name=&quot;lgid0&quot;&gt;[[#adams1911|Adams 1911]], p. 43&lt;/ref&gt; After dispersing an American detachment at [[Battle of Paoli|Paoli]] on September 20, Cornwallis occupied Philadelphia on September 26, with the main force of 9,000 under Howe based just to the north at [[Germantown, Philadelphia|Germantown]].&lt;ref name=&quot;IMKqn&quot;&gt;[[#ward1952|Ward, C. 1952]], pp. 361–362&lt;/ref&gt; Washington [[Battle of Germantown|attacked them]] on October 4, but was repulsed.&lt;ref name=&quot;LEStg&quot;&gt;[[#taffe|Taaffe 2003]], pp. 95–100&lt;/ref&gt; To prevent Howe's forces in Philadelphia being resupplied by sea, the Patriots erected [[Fort Mifflin]] and nearby [[Fort Mercer]] on the east and west banks of the Delaware respectively, and placed [[Cheval de frise|obstacles]] in the river south of the city. This was supported by a small flotilla of [[Continental Navy]] ships on the Delaware, supplemented by the [[Pennsylvania State Navy]], commanded by [[John Hazelwood]]. An attempt by the Royal Navy to take the forts in the October 20 to 22 [[Battle of Red Bank]] failed;&lt;ref name=&quot;75GN3&quot;&gt;[[#daughan2011|Daughan, 2011]], pp. 148–155&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;mcgeorge5&quot;&gt;[[#mcgeorge1905|McGeorge, 1905]], pp. 4–8&lt;/ref&gt; a second attack captured Fort Mifflin on November 16, while Fort Mercer was abandoned two days later when Cornwallis breached the walls.&lt;ref name=&quot;OKOhj&quot;&gt;[[#cadwalader1901|Cadwalader 1901]], p. 20&lt;/ref&gt; His supply lines secured, Howe tried to tempt Washington into giving battle, but after inconclusive skirmishing at the [[Battle of White Marsh]] from December 5 to 8, he withdrew to Philadelphia for the winter.&lt;ref name=&quot;Hlf4h&quot;&gt;[[#cadwalader1901|Cadwalader 1901]], p. 22&lt;/ref&gt; On December 19, the Americans followed suit and entered winter quarters at [[Valley Forge]]; while Washington's domestic opponents contrasted his lack of battlefield success with Gates' victory at Saratoga,&lt;ref name=&quot;fsEEE&quot;&gt;[[#cadwalader1901|Cadwalader 1901]], pp. 22, 27&lt;/ref&gt; foreign observers such as Frederick the Great were equally impressed with Germantown, which demonstrated resilience and determination.&lt;ref name=&quot;KFJ3w&quot;&gt;[[#fiske1891|Fiske 1891]], p. 332&lt;/ref&gt; Over the winter, poor conditions, supply problems and low morale resulted in 2,000 deaths, with another 3,000 unfit for duty due to lack of shoes.&lt;ref name=&quot;USnEK&quot;&gt;[[#chernow2010|Chernow 2010 (2011)]], pp. 327–328&lt;/ref&gt; However, Baron [[Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben]] took the opportunity to introduce [[Prussian Army]] drill and infantry tactics to &quot;model companies&quot; in each Continental Army regiment, who then instructed their home units.&lt;ref name=&quot;NPYXp&quot;&gt;[[#lockhart|Lockhart 2008]], p.?{{page?|date=September 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; Despite Valley Forge being only twenty miles away, Howe made no effort to attack their camp, an action some critics argue could have ended the war.&lt;ref name=&quot;A Concluding Commentary&quot;&gt;[[#risch1981|Risch, 1981]], pp. 322, 417–418&lt;/ref&gt; ===Foreign intervention=== {{Main|France in the American Revolutionary War|Spain and the American Revolutionary War|Carlisle Peace Commission}} [[File:The action between the Serapis, capt. Pearson, the Countess of Scarborough, and Paul Jones’s Squadron. R.Paton - K325.jpg|thumb|alt=From the left, in the background three sailing warships at sea, one clearly flying a British naval ensign; in the center-right foreground, three sailing warships, two of them firing broadsides with gun smoke starting to cover them up. There was no US flag on the American ship, so the British said John Paul Jones was a pirate.|The [[Battle of Flamborough Head]] with U.S. warships in European waters with access to [[Dutch Republic|Dutch]], [[Kingdom of France|French]], and [[History of Spain (1700–1808)|Spanish]] ports]] Like his predecessors, French foreign minister [[Charles Gravier, comte de Vergennes|Vergennes]] considered the 1763 Peace a national humiliation and viewed the war as an opportunity to weaken Britain. He initially avoided open conflict, but allowed American ships to take on cargoes in French ports, a technical violation of neutrality.&lt;ref name=&quot;RQia1&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], p. 117&lt;/ref&gt; Vergennes persuaded [[Louis XVI]] to secretly fund a [[Roderigue Hortalez and Company|government front company]] to purchase munitions for the Patriots, carried in neutral Dutch ships and imported through [[Sint Eustatius]] in the Caribbean.&lt;ref name=&quot;7Emll&quot;&gt;[[#jones2002|Jones 2002]], pp. 5–6&lt;/ref&gt; Many Americans opposed a French alliance, fearing to &quot;exchange one tyranny for another&quot;, but this changed after a series of military setbacks in early 1776. As France had nothing to gain from the colonies reconciling with Britain, Congress had three choices: making peace on British terms, continuing the struggle on their own, or proclaiming independence, guaranteed by France. Although the Declaration of Independence had wide public support, over 20% of Congressmen voted against an alliance with France.&lt;ref name=&quot;m8HfD&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], pp. 117–119&lt;/ref&gt; Congress agreed to the treaty with reluctance and as the war moved in their favor increasingly lost interest in it.&lt;ref name=&quot;Jh722&quot;&gt;[[#chambers1999|Chambers 1999]]&lt;/ref&gt; Silas Deane was sent to [[Paris]] to begin negotiations with Vergennes, whose key objectives were replacing Britain as the United States' primary commercial and military partner while securing the [[French West Indies]] from American expansion.&lt;ref name=&quot;AxPnm&quot;&gt;[[#chambers2004|Chambers 2004]]&lt;/ref&gt; These islands were extremely valuable; in 1772, the value of sugar and coffee produced by [[Saint-Domingue]] on its own exceeded that of all American exports combined.&lt;ref name=&quot;XpW61&quot;&gt;[[#eclov2013|Eclov 2013]] pp. 23–24&lt;/ref&gt; Talks progressed slowly until October 1777, when British defeat at Saratoga and their apparent willingness to negotiate peace convinced Vergennes only a permanent alliance could prevent the &quot;disaster&quot; of Anglo-American rapprochement. Assurances of formal French support allowed Congress to reject the Carlisle Peace Commission and insist on nothing short of complete independence.&lt;ref name=&quot;LV00I&quot;&gt;[[#stockley2001|Stockley 2001]], pp. 11–14&lt;/ref&gt; On February 6, 1778, France and the United States signed the [[Treaty of Amity and Commerce (France–United States)|Treaty of Amity and Commerce]] regulating trade between the two countries, followed by a defensive military alliance against Britain, the [[Treaty of Alliance (1778)|Treaty of Alliance]]. In return for French guarantees of American independence, Congress undertook to defend their interests in the West Indies, while both sides agreed not to make a separate peace; conflict over these provisions would lead to the 1798 to 1800 [[Quasi-War]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Jh722&quot; /&gt; [[Charles III of Spain]] was invited to join on the same terms but refused, largely due to concerns over the impact of the Revolution on Spanish colonies in the Americas. Spain had complained on multiple occasions about encroachment by American settlers into [[Louisiana (New Spain)|Louisiana]], a problem that could only get worse once the United States replaced Britain.&lt;ref name=&quot;cLbUe&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Renouf |first=Stephen |title=Spain in the American Revolution |url=https://members.sar.org/media/uploads/pages/309/TJx3jcf0O6up.pdf |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20221009/https://members.sar.org/media/uploads/pages/309/TJx3jcf0O6up.pdf |archive-date=2022-10-09 |url-status=live |access-date=7 December 2020 |website=Spain Society; SAR |publisher=sar.org}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Entree de l escadre francaise en baie de Newport 1778 Ozanne.jpg|thumb|left|alt=From the left, a coastal town set in the background of a harbor; in the foreground center-right in the approach to the harbor and curving into the right background, a line of French warships, one firing a broadside at the town.|French Admiral [[Charles Henri Hector d'Estaing|d'Estaing]]'s joint expedition with [[John Sullivan (general)|Sullivan]] at the [[Battle of Rhode Island]] in August 1778]] Although Spain ultimately made important contributions to American success, in the [[Treaty of Aranjuez (1779)|Treaty of Aranjuez]], Charles agreed only to support [[Anglo-French War (1778–1783)|France's war with Britain]] outside America, in return for help in recovering [[Gibraltar]], [[Menorca]] and [[Spanish Florida]].&lt;ref name=&quot;1WkNc&quot;&gt;[[#davenport1917|Davenport 1917]], pp. 145–146&lt;/ref&gt; The terms were confidential since several conflicted with American aims; for example, the French claimed exclusive control of the Newfoundland cod fisheries, a non-negotiable for colonies like Massachusetts.&lt;ref name=&quot;Zpiql&quot;&gt;[[#davenport1917|Davenport 1917]], p. 146&lt;/ref&gt; One less well-known impact of this agreement was the abiding American distrust of 'foreign entanglements'; the U.S. would not sign another treaty with France until their [[NATO]] agreement of 1949.&lt;ref name=&quot;Jh722&quot; /&gt; This was because the US had agreed not to make peace without France, while Aranjuez committed France to keep fighting until Spain recovered Gibraltar, effectively making it a condition of U.S. independence without the knowledge of Congress.&lt;ref name=&quot;Sj8Yw&quot;&gt;[[#weeks2013|Weeks 2013]], p. 27&lt;/ref&gt; To encourage French participation in the struggle for independence, the U.S. representative in Paris, Silas Deane promised promotion and command positions to any French officer who joined the Continental Army. Such as [[Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette]], whom Congress via Dean appointed a major general,&lt;ref&gt;[[#chernow2010|Chernow, 2010]], p. 298&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[[#horn1989|Horn, 1989]], pp. 24–25, 30&lt;/ref&gt; on July 31, 1777.&lt;ref&gt;[[#axelrod2009|Axelrod, 2009]], pp. 234–235&lt;/ref&gt; When the war started, Britain tried to borrow the Dutch-based [[Scots Brigade]] for service in America, but pro-Patriot sentiment led the [[States General of the Netherlands|States General]] to refuse.&lt;ref name=&quot;REc39&quot;&gt;[[#edler|Edler 2001]]&amp;nbsp;[1911], pp. 28–32&lt;/ref&gt; Although the Republic was no longer a major power, prior to 1774 they still dominated the European carrying trade, and Dutch merchants made large profits shipping French-supplied munitions to the Patriots. This ended when Britain [[Fourth Anglo-Dutch War|declared war]] in December 1780, a conflict that proved disastrous to the Dutch economy.&lt;ref name=&quot;2mejD&quot;&gt;[[#scott1988|Scott 1988]], pp. 572–573&lt;/ref&gt; The British government failed to take into account the strength of the American merchant marine and support from European countries, which allowed the colonies to import munitions and continue trading with relative impunity. While well aware of this, the North administration delayed placing the Royal Navy on a war footing for cost reasons; this prevented the institution of an effective blockade.&lt;ref name=&quot;vh541&quot;&gt;[[#syrett1998|Syrett 1998]], p. 2&lt;/ref&gt; Traditional British policy was to employ European land-based allies to divert the opposition; in 1778, they were diplomatically isolated and faced war on multiple fronts.&lt;ref name=&quot;30Yfr&quot;&gt;[[#syrett1998|Syrett 1998]], pp. 18–19&lt;/ref&gt; Meanwhile, George III had given up on subduing America while Britain had a European war to fight.&lt;ref name=&quot;BNJcV&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2013|Ferling 2007]], p. 294&lt;/ref&gt; He did not welcome war with France, but he held the [[Annus Mirabilis of 1759|British victories over France]] in the Seven Years' War as a reason to believe in ultimate victory over France.&lt;ref name=&quot;0Xa9K&quot;&gt;[[#syrett1998|Syrett 1998]], p. 17&lt;/ref&gt; Britain subsequently changed its focus into the Caribbean theater,&lt;ref name=&quot;bdwF7&quot;&gt;[[#syrett1998|Syrett 1998]], p. 18&lt;/ref&gt; and diverted major military resources away from America.&lt;ref name=&quot;uPqly&quot;&gt;[[#higginbotham1983|Higginbotham 1983]]&amp;nbsp;[1971], pp. 175–188&lt;/ref&gt; ===Stalemate in the North=== {{Main|Northern theater of the American Revolutionary War after Saratoga|Western theater of the American Revolutionary War}} [[File:Battle of Springfield NJ 1780.jpg|thumb|alt=A close up of Continental infantry fighting in a street; a company on line firing to the left off the painting; in the center the officer; right foreground a drummer boy and behind him a soldier reloading a musket.|[[Continental Army|Continentals]] repulsing the British at the [[Battle of Springfield]] in June 1780; &quot;Give 'em Watts, boys!&quot;]] At the end of 1777, Howe resigned and was replaced by Sir Henry Clinton on May 24, 1778; with French entry into the war, he was ordered to consolidate his forces in New York.&lt;ref name=&quot;uPqly&quot; /&gt; On June 18, the British departed Philadelphia with the reinvigorated Americans in pursuit; the [[Battle of Monmouth]] on June 28 was inconclusive but boosted Patriot morale. That midnight, the newly installed Clinton continued his retreat to New York.&lt;ref name=&quot;ru2b1&quot;&gt;[[#chernow2010|Chernow 2010 (2011)]], p. 343&lt;/ref&gt; A French naval force under Admiral [[Charles Henri Hector d'Estaing]] was sent to assist Washington; deciding New York was too formidable a target, in August they launched a combined attack on Newport, with General [[John Sullivan (general)|John Sullivan]] commanding land forces.&lt;ref name=&quot;2fC9I&quot;&gt;[[#morrissey1997|Morrissey 2004]], pp. 77–78&lt;/ref&gt; The resulting [[Battle of Rhode Island]] was indecisive; badly damaged by a storm, the French withdrew to avoid risking their ships.&lt;ref name=&quot;hGItT&quot;&gt;[[#daughan2011|Daughan 2011]]&amp;nbsp;[2008], pp. 174–176&lt;/ref&gt; Further activity was limited to British raids on [[Battle of Chestnut Neck|Chestnut Neck]] and [[The Affair at Little Egg Harbor|Little Egg Harbor]] in October.&lt;ref name=&quot;aNa6z&quot;&gt;[[#goos|Goos]]&lt;/ref&gt; In July 1779, the Americans captured British positions at [[Battle of Stony Point|Stony Point]] and [[Battle of Paulus Hook|Paulus Hook]].&lt;ref name=&quot;g7TYG&quot;&gt;[[#hazard54|Hazard 1829]], p. 54&lt;/ref&gt; Clinton unsuccessfully tried to tempt Washington into a decisive engagement by sending General [[William Tryon]] to [[Tryon's raid|raid Connecticut]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Tk2S6&quot;&gt;[[#nelson1999|Nelson 1999]], p. 170&lt;/ref&gt; In July, a large American naval operation, the [[Penobscot Expedition]], attempted to retake [[District of Maine|Maine]] but was defeated.&lt;ref name=&quot;rBeAQ&quot;&gt;[[#bicheno14|Bicheno 2014]], p. 149&lt;/ref&gt; Persistent [[Northern theater of the American Revolutionary War after Saratoga#Frontier Raids|Iroquois raids]] in New York and Pennsylvania led to the punitive [[Sullivan Expedition]] from July to September 1779. Involving more than 4,000 patriot soldiers, the [[scorched earth]] campaign destroyed more than 40 Iroquois villages and 160,000 bushels (4,000 mts) of [[maize]], leaving the Iroquois destitute and destroying the Iroquois confederacy as an independent power on the American frontier. However, 5,000 Iroquois fled to Canada, where, supplied and supported by the British, they continued their raids.&lt;ref name=&quot;mffSI&quot;&gt;[[#fischer2008|Fischer, J. 2008]], p. 86&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Soodalter&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last1=Soodalter |first1=Ron |title=Massacre &amp; Retribution: The 1779-1780 Sullivan Expedition |url=https://www.historynet.com/massacre-retribution-the-1779-80-sullivan-expedition/ |website=History Net |date=July 8, 2011 |access-date=8 May 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;National Park Service&quot;&gt;{{cite web |title=The Clinton-Sullivan Campaign of 1779 |url=https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/the-clinton-sullivan-campaign-of-1779.htm |website=National Park Service |access-date=8 April 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; During the winter of 1779–1780, the Continental Army suffered greater hardships than at Valley Forge.&lt;ref name=&quot;qGXr7&quot;&gt;[[#tolson|Tolson 2008]], &quot;Washington's Savvy Won the Day&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; Morale was poor, public support fell away, the [[Continental dollar]] was virtually worthless, the army was plagued with supply problems, desertion was common, and mutinies occurred in the [[Pennsylvania Line Mutiny|Pennsylvania Line]] and [[Pompton Mutiny|New Jersey Line]] regiments over the conditions.&lt;ref name=&quot;Q0VqJ&quot;&gt;[[#chandler|Chandler 2017]], pp. 363–380&lt;/ref&gt; In June 1780, Clinton sent 6,000 men under [[Wilhelm von Knyphausen]] to retake New Jersey, but they were halted by local militia at the [[Battle of Connecticut Farms]]; although the Americans withdrew, Knyphausen felt he was not strong enough to engage Washington's main force and retreated.&lt;ref name=&quot;cUzlf&quot;&gt;[[#fleming|Fleming 2005]]&amp;nbsp;[1973], pp. 174–175&lt;/ref&gt; A second attempt two weeks later ended in a British defeat at the [[Battle of Springfield (1780)|Battle of Springfield]], effectively ending their ambitions in New Jersey.&lt;ref name=&quot;RoM95&quot;&gt;[[#fleming|Fleming 2005]]&amp;nbsp;[1973], pp. 232, 302&lt;/ref&gt; In July, Washington appointed [[Benedict Arnold]] commander of [[West Point]]; his attempt to betray the fort to the British failed due to incompetent planning, and the plot was revealed when his British contact [[John André]] was captured and executed.&lt;ref name=&quot;cmndD&quot;&gt;[[#palmer2010|Palmer 2010]], pp. 340–342&lt;/ref&gt; Arnold escaped to New York and switched sides, an action justified in a pamphlet addressed &quot;[[To the Inhabitants of America]]&quot;; the Patriots condemned his betrayal, while he found himself almost as unpopular with the British.&lt;ref name=&quot;oKXqF&quot;&gt;[[#palmer2010|Palmer 2010]], pp. 376–377&lt;/ref&gt; ===War in the South=== {{Main|Southern theater of the American Revolutionary War}} [[File:Sullivans-island-1050x777.jpg|thumb|alt=A birds-eye view over the British lines of artillery besieging the port of Charleston in the center-background, and landing some shots at the docks.|The British [[siege of Charleston]] in May 1780]] [[File:Cowpens.jpg|thumb|alt=A close-up of a cavalry melee on large horses with sabers and pistols drawn; Three redcoats center-right are engaging two Patriots in blue along with an African-American in a brown linen shirt and white pants, with his pistol drawn and leveled at a redcoat.|The [[Continental Army]] routs the [[British Legion (American Revolutionary War)|British Legion]] at the [[Battle of Cowpens]] in [[Cowpens, South Carolina]], in January 1781]] The Southern Strategy was developed by Lord Germain, based on input from London-based Loyalists, including Joseph Galloway. They argued that it made no sense to fight the Patriots in the north where they were strongest, while the New England economy was reliant on trade with Britain. On the other hand, duties on tobacco made the South far more profitable for Britain, while local support meant securing it required small numbers of regular troops. Victory would leave a truncated United States facing British possessions in the south, [[Canada]] to the north, and [[Ohio]] on their western border; with the [[East Coast of the United States|Atlantic seaboard]] controlled by the [[Royal Navy]], Congress would be forced to agree to terms. However, assumptions about the level of Loyalist support proved wildly optimistic.&lt;ref name=&quot;WmAJ5&quot;&gt;[[#pearson1993|Pearson 1993]], pp. 16–19&lt;/ref&gt; Germain ordered [[Augustine Prévost]], the British commander in [[East Florida]], to advance into [[Georgia in the American Revolution#Return of the British Army|Georgia]] in December 1778. [[Archibald Campbell (British Army officer, born 1739)|Lieutenant-Colonel Archibald Campbell]], an experienced officer, [[Capture of Savannah|captured Savannah]] on December 29, 1778. He recruited a Loyalist militia of nearly 1,100, many of whom allegedly joined only after Campbell threatened to confiscate their property.&lt;ref name=&quot;oVXIX&quot;&gt;[[#wilson2005|Wilson 2005]], p. 87&lt;/ref&gt; Poor motivation and training made them unreliable troops, as demonstrated in their defeat by Patriot militia at the [[Battle of Kettle Creek]] on February 14, 1779, although this was offset by British victory at [[Battle of Brier Creek|Brier Creek]] on March 3.&lt;ref name=&quot;eTiqi&quot;&gt;[[#morrill|Morrill 1993]], pp. 46–50&lt;/ref&gt; In June 1779, Prévost launched an abortive assault on Charleston, before retreating to Savannah, an operation notorious for widespread looting by British troops that enraged both Loyalists and Patriots. In October, a joint French and American operation under d'Estaing and General [[Benjamin Lincoln]] failed to [[Siege of Savannah|recapture Savannah]].&lt;ref name=&quot;yBaSD&quot;&gt;[[#wilson2005|Wilson 2005]], p. 112&lt;/ref&gt; Prévost was replaced by Lord Cornwallis, who assumed responsibility for Germain's strategy; he soon realized estimates of Loyalist support were considerably over-stated, and he needed far more regular forces.&lt;ref name=&quot;fDcs9&quot;&gt;[[#pearson1993|Pearson 1993]], pp. 22–23&lt;/ref&gt; Reinforced by Clinton, Cornwallis's troops captured Charleston in May 1780, inflicting the most serious Patriot defeat of the war; over 5,000 prisoners were taken and the Continental Army in the south effectively destroyed. On May 29, Lieutenant-Colonel [[Banastre Tarleton]]'s mainly Loyalist force routed a Continental Army force nearly three times its size under Colonel Abraham Buford at the [[Battle of Waxhaws]]. The battle is controversial for allegations of a massacre, which were later used as a recruiting tool by the Patriots.&lt;ref name=&quot;9sQwG&quot;&gt;[[#piecuch2004|Piecuch 2004]], pp. 4–8&lt;/ref&gt; Clinton returned to New York, leaving Cornwallis to oversee the south; despite their success, the two men left barely on speaking terms.&lt;ref name=&quot;zCa8T&quot;&gt;[[#borick2003|Borick 2003]], pp. 127–128&lt;/ref&gt; The Southern strategy depended on local support, but this was undermined by a series of coercive measures. Previously, captured Patriots were sent home after swearing not to take up arms against the king; they were now required to fight their former comrades, while the confiscation of Patriot-owned plantations led formerly neutral &quot;[[grandee]]s&quot; to side with them.&lt;ref name=&quot;UE0Rz&quot;&gt;[[#gordon|Gordon and Keegan 2007]], pp. 101–102&lt;/ref&gt; Skirmishes at [[Battle of Williamson's Plantation|Williamson's Plantation]], Cedar Springs, [[Battle of Rocky Mount|Rocky Mount]], and [[Battle of Hanging Rock|Hanging Rock]] signaled widespread resistance to the new oaths throughout South Carolina.&lt;ref name=&quot;eJXda&quot;&gt;[[#gordon|Gordon and Keegan 2007]], pp. 88–92&lt;/ref&gt; In July 1780, Congress appointed Gates commander in the south; he was defeated at the [[Battle of Camden]] on August 16, leaving Cornwallis free to enter North Carolina.&lt;ref name=&quot;CR0we&quot;&gt;[[#rankin|Rankin 2011]]&amp;nbsp;[1996], p.&lt;/ref&gt; Despite battlefield success, the British could not control the countryside and Patriot attacks continued; before moving north, Cornwallis sent Loyalist militia under Major [[Patrick Ferguson]] to cover his left flank, leaving their forces too far apart to provide mutual support.&lt;ref name=&quot;P43ob&quot;&gt;[[#buchanan97|Buchanan 1997]], p. 202&lt;/ref&gt; In early October, Ferguson was defeated at the [[Battle of Kings Mountain]], dispersing organized Loyalist resistance in the region.&lt;ref name=&quot;6Dbvn&quot;&gt;[[#Ferling2007|Ferling, 2007]], pp. 459–461&lt;/ref&gt; Despite this, Cornwallis continued into North Carolina hoping for Loyalist support, while Washington replaced Gates with General [[Nathanael Greene]] in December 1780.&lt;ref name=&quot;MsfX6&quot;&gt;[[#buchanan97|Buchanan 1997]], p. 275&lt;/ref&gt; Greene divided his army, leading his main force southeast pursued by Cornwallis; a detachment was sent southwest under [[Daniel Morgan]], who defeated Tarleton's [[British Legion (American Revolution)|British Legion]] at [[Battle of Cowpens|Cowpens]] on January 17, 1781, nearly eliminating it as a fighting force.&lt;ref name=&quot;Y8Aqz&quot;&gt;[[#golway2005|Golway 2005]], pp. 238–242&lt;/ref&gt; The Patriots now held the initiative in the south, with the exception of a [[Raid of Richmond|raid on Richmond]] led by Benedict Arnold in January 1781.&lt;ref name=&quot;kFdPt&quot;&gt;[[#peterson1975|Peterson 1975]]&amp;nbsp;[1970], pp. 234–238&lt;/ref&gt; Greene led Cornwallis on a series of countermarches around North Carolina; by early March, the British were exhausted and short of supplies and Greene felt strong enough to fight the [[Battle of Guilford Court House]] on March 15. Although victorious, Cornwallis suffered heavy casualties and retreated to [[Wilmington, North Carolina#Revolutionary era|Wilmington, North Carolina]], seeking supplies and reinforcements.&lt;ref name=&quot;NcMDc&quot;&gt;[[#buchanan97|Buchanan 1997]], p. 241&lt;/ref&gt; The Patriots now controlled most of the Carolinas and Georgia outside the coastal areas; after a minor reversal at the [[Battle of Hobkirk's Hill]], they recaptured [[Siege of Fort Watson|Fort Watson]] and [[Siege of Fort Motte|Fort Motte]] on April 15.&lt;ref name=&quot;Sfu2K&quot;&gt;[[#fgreene1913|Greene, F. 1913]], pp. 234–237&lt;/ref&gt; On June 6, Brigadier General [[Andrew Pickens (congressman)|Andrew Pickens]] captured [[Siege of Augusta|Augusta]], leaving the British in Georgia confined to Charleston and Savannah.&lt;ref name=&quot;ei9uo&quot;&gt;[[#reynolds2012|Reynolds 2012]], pp. 255–277&lt;/ref&gt; The assumption Loyalists would do most of the fighting left the British short of troops and battlefield victories came at the cost of losses they could not replace. Despite halting Greene's advance at the [[Battle of Eutaw Springs]] on September 8, Cornwallis withdrew to Charleston with little to show for his campaign.&lt;ref name=&quot;Mn9U7&quot;&gt;[[#pancake1985|Pancake 1985]], p. 221&lt;/ref&gt; ===Western campaign=== {{main|Western theater of the American Revolutionary War}} [[File:Vincennes 1779.jpg|thumb|alt=At left center, Virginia militia Colonel George Rogers Clark with buckskinned uniformed militia lined up behind him; at right center, red-coated British Quebec Governor Hamilton surrendering with ranks of white-uniformed Tory militia behind receding into the background; a drummer boy in the foreground; a line of British Indian allies lined up on the right receding into the background.|[[Province of Quebec (1763–1791)|Province of Quebec]] Governor [[Henry Hamilton (colonial administrator)|Henry Hamilton]] surrenders to Colonel [[George Rogers Clark]] at [[Vincennes, Indiana|Vincennes]] in July 1779]] From the beginning of the war, [[Bernardo de Gálvez, 1st Viscount of Galveston|Bernardo de Gálvez]], the [[List of colonial governors of Louisiana|Governor of Spanish Louisiana]], allowed the Americans to import supplies and munitions into [[History of New Orleans#Spanish interregnum|New Orleans]], then ship them to [[History of Pittsburgh#Gateway to the West (1763–1799)|Pittsburgh]].&lt;ref name=&quot;sDaXP&quot;&gt;[[#narrett2015|Narrett 2015]], p. 81&lt;/ref&gt; This provided an alternative transportation route for the Continental Army, bypassing the British blockade of the Atlantic Coast.&lt;ref name=&quot;T3jCI&quot;&gt;[[#chavez|Chavez 2002]], p. 108&lt;/ref&gt; In February 1778, an expedition of militia to destroy British military supplies in settlements along the [[Cuyahoga River]] was halted by adverse weather.&lt;ref name=&quot;zrHvB&quot;&gt;[[#nester2004|Nester 2004]], p. 194&lt;/ref&gt; Later in the year, a [[Illinois campaign|second campaign]] was undertaken to seize the [[Illinois Country]] from the British. Virginia militia, ''[[Canadien]]'' settlers, and Indian allies commanded by Colonel George Rogers Clark captured [[Kaskaskia, Illinois|Kaskaskia]] on July 4 and then secured [[Vincennes, Indiana|Vincennes]], though Vincennes was recaptured by Quebec Governor [[Henry Hamilton (colonial administrator)|Henry Hamilton]]. In early 1779, the Virginians counter-attacked in the [[siege of Fort Vincennes]] and took Hamilton prisoner. Clark secured western [[Quebec Act|British Quebec]] as the American Northwest Territory in the [[Treaty of Paris (1783)|Treaty of Paris]] brought the Revolutionary War to an end.&lt;ref name=&quot;A5cfw&quot;&gt;[[#harrison2001|Harrison 2001]], pp. 58–60&lt;/ref&gt; When Spain joined France's war against Britain in the Anglo-French War in 1779, their treaty specifically excluded Spanish military action in North America. Later that year, however, Gálvez initiated offensive operations against British outposts.&lt;ref name=&quot;lGgZh&quot;&gt;[[#chavez|Chávez 2002]], p. 170&lt;/ref&gt; First, he cleared British garrisons in [[History of Baton Rouge, Louisiana#1763–1779: British period|Baton Rouge]], [[History of Louisiana#Spanish interregnum (1763–1803)|Louisiana]], [[Fort Bute]], and [[History of Natchez, Mississippi#Colonial history (1716–1783)|Natchez]], [[History of Mississippi#European colonial period|Mississippi]], and captured five forts.&lt;ref name=&quot;zQHJI&quot;&gt;[[#carlos|Don Jaun Carlos I 1979]], speech&lt;/ref&gt; In doing so, Gálvez opened navigation on the Mississippi River north to the American settlement in Pittsburgh.&lt;ref name=&quot;ipFTR&quot;&gt;[[#Deane2018|Deane 2018]], &quot;Spanish New Orleans helped America&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; On May 25, 1780, British Colonel Henry Bird [[Bird's invasion of Kentucky|invaded Kentucky]] as part of a wider operation to clear American resistance from [[Quebec]] to the [[Gulf Coast of the United States|Gulf Coast]]. Their advance on New Orleans was repelled by Spanish Governor Gálvez's offensive on [[Mobile, Alabama|Mobile]]. Simultaneous British attacks were repulsed on [[Battle of St. Louis|St. Louis]] by the Spanish Lieutenant Governor [[Fernando de Leyba|de Leyba]], and on the [[Illinois County, Virginia|Virginia County courthouse]] in [[Cahokia, Illinois]], by Lieutenant Colonel Clark. The British initiative under Bird from Detroit was ended at the rumored approach of Clark.{{Efn|Bird's expedition numbered 150 British soldiers, several hundred Loyalists, and 700 Shawnee, Wyandot, and Ottawa auxiliaries. The force skirted into the eastern regions of Patriot-conquered western Quebec that had been annexed as [[Illinois County, Virginia]]. His target was Virginia militia stationed at [[Fort-on-Shore|Lexington]]. As they approached downriver on the [[Ohio River]], rumor among the natives spread that the feared Colonel Clark had discovered their approach. Bird's natives and Loyalists abandoned their mission 90 miles upriver to loot settlements at the [[Licking River (Kentucky)#History|Licking River]]. At the surrender of Ruddles Station, safe passage to families was promised, but 200 were massacred by Indian raiders. Grenier maintains that &quot;The slaughter the Indians and rangers perpetrated was unprecedented&quot;.}} The scale of violence in the [[Licking River (Kentucky)#History|Licking River Valley]], was extreme &quot;even for frontier standards.&quot; It led to [[English people|English]] and [[Germans|German]] settlements, who joined Clark's militia when the British and their hired German soldiers withdrew to the [[Great Lakes]].&lt;ref name=&quot;XfL5Q&quot;&gt;[[#grenier|Grenier 2005]], p. 159&lt;/ref&gt; The Americans responded with a major offensive along the [[Mad River (Ohio)|Mad River]] in August which met with some success in the [[Battle of Piqua]] but did not end Indian raids.&lt;ref name=&quot;nolLI&quot;&gt;[[#nelson1999|Nelson 1999]], p. 118&lt;/ref&gt; French soldier [[Augustin de La Balme]] led a Canadian militia in an attempt to capture [[Detroit]], but they dispersed when [[Miami tribe|Miami natives]] led by [[Little Turtle]] attacked the encamped settlers on November 5.&lt;ref name=&quot;nGyQz&quot;&gt;[[#gaff|Gaff 2004]], p. 85&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|Most Native Americans living in the area remembered the French better than any of the British they had met. Despite the British military nearby, the [[Miami people#United States and Tribal Divide|Miami people]] sought to avoid fighting with either Virginian Clark or Frenchman La Balme. On La Balme's horseback advance on Detroit, he paused two weeks to ruin a local French trader and loot surrounding Miami towns. La Balme might have treated them as allies, but he pushed [[Little Turtle]] into warrior leadership, converting most Miami tribes into British military allies, and launching the military career of one of the most successful opponents of westward settlement over the next 30 years.&lt;ref name=&quot;h260W&quot;&gt;[[#hogeland2017|Hogeland 2017]], pp. 88–89&lt;/ref&gt;}} The war in the west stalemated with the British garrison sitting in Detroit and the Virginians expanding westward settlements north of the Ohio River in the face of British-allied Indian resistance.&lt;ref name=&quot;b02bR&quot;&gt;[[#skaggs1977|Skaggs 1977]], p. 132&lt;/ref&gt; In 1781, Galvez and Pollock [[Gulf Coast campaign|campaigned east along the Gulf Coast]] to secure West Florida, including British-held Mobile and Pensacola.&lt;ref name=&quot;COArV&quot;&gt;[[#raab|Raab 2007]], p. 135&lt;/ref&gt; The Spanish operations impaired the British supply of armaments to British Indian allies, which effectively suspended a military alliance to attack settlers between the Mississippi River and the Appalachian Mountains.&lt;ref name=&quot;wwErI&quot;&gt;[[#o'brien2008|O'Brien 2008]], p. 124&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|Governor Bernardo de Gálvez is only one of eight men made honorary US citizens for his service in the American Cause. see Bridget Bowman (29 December 2014). &quot;Bernardo de Gálvez y Madrid's Very Good Year&quot;. Roll Call. The Economist Group. Retrieved April 25, 2020.}} In 1782, large scale retaliations between settlers and Native Americans in the region included the [[Gnadenhutten massacre]] and the [[Crawford expedition]]. The 1782 [[Battle of Blue Licks]] was one of the last major engagements of the war. News of the treaty between Great Britain and the United States arrived late that year. By this time, about 7% of [[Kentucky]] settlers had been killed in battles against Native Americans, contrasted with 1% of the population killed in the Thirteen Colonies. Lingering resentments led to [[Northwest Indian War#Course of the war|continued fighting in the west]] after the war officially ended. ===British defeat=== {{Main|Yorktown campaign}} [[File:BattleOfVirginiaCapes.jpg|thumb|right|alt=Two lines of warships at sea sailing with full sails downwind away from the viewer and firing broadsides at one another; in the center foreground receding into the left background, six of the French fleet; in the right foreground receding to the center four of the British fleet.|A [[French Navy]] fleet (left) engages the [[Royal Navy|British]] in the [[Battle of the Chesapeake]] on September 5, 1781]] [[File:Surrender of Lord Cornwallis.jpg|thumb|alt=Center foreground a British officer on the left standing surrenders to a mounted Continental officer; far left foreground receding into the center background, a British line of infantry then mounted cavalry, with a large white flag of surrender; far right foreground receding into the center background, a Continental line of infantry, then mounted cavalry, with a large US flag of the Army.|British general [[Charles Cornwallis, 1st Marquess Cornwallis|Cornwallis]] surrenders at [[Siege of Yorktown|Yorktown]] in October 1781]] Clinton spent most of 1781 based in New York City; he failed to construct a coherent operational strategy, partly due to his difficult relationship with Admiral [[Marriot Arbuthnot]].&lt;ref name=&quot;ap5wX&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], p. 444&lt;/ref&gt; In [[Charleston, South Carolina|Charleston]], Cornwallis independently developed an aggressive plan for a campaign in Virginia, which he hoped would isolate Greene's army in the [[Carolinas]] and cause the collapse of Patriot resistance in the [[Southern United States|South]]. This strategy was approved by Lord Germain in London, but neither informed Clinton.&lt;ref name=&quot;mnb58&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum2014b|Ketchum 2014b]], pp. 423, 520&lt;/ref&gt; Washington and [[Jean-Baptiste Donatien de Vimeur, comte de Rochambeau|Rochambeau]] discussed their options: Washington wanted to attack the British in New York, and Rochambeau wanted to attack them in [[Virginia]], where Cornwallis's forces were less established.&lt;ref name=&quot;xzQbp&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum2014b|Ketchum 2014b]], p. 139&lt;/ref&gt; Washington eventually gave way, and Lafayette took a combined Franco-American force into Virginia.&lt;ref name=&quot;bsnMy&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], pp. 526–529&lt;/ref&gt; Clinton misinterpreted his movements as preparations for an attack on New York and instructed Cornwallis to establish a fortified sea base, where the Royal Navy could evacuate British troops to help defend New York.&lt;ref name=&quot;b3QwE&quot;&gt;[[#grainger2005|Grainger 2005]], pp. 43–44&lt;/ref&gt; When Lafayette entered Virginia, Cornwallis complied with Clinton's orders and withdrew to [[Yorktown, Virginia|Yorktown]], where he constructed strong defenses and awaited evacuation.&lt;ref name=&quot;SkAo5&quot;&gt;[[#taylor2016|Taylor 2016]], pp. 293–295&lt;/ref&gt; An agreement by the [[Spanish Navy]] to defend the French West Indies allowed Admiral [[François Joseph Paul de Grasse]] to relocate to the Atlantic seaboard, a move Arbuthnot did not anticipate.&lt;ref name=&quot;ap5wX&quot; /&gt; This provided Lafayette naval support, while the failure of previous combined operations at [[Newport News, Virginia|Newport]] and [[Savannah, Georgia|Savannah]] meant their coordination was planned more carefully.&lt;ref name=&quot;6XKWu&quot;&gt;[[#dull1975|Dull 2015]]&amp;nbsp;[1975], pp. 247–248&lt;/ref&gt; Despite repeated urging from his subordinates, Cornwallis made no attempt to engage Lafayette before he could establish siege lines.&lt;ref name=&quot;jzAf8&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum2014b|Ketchum 2014b]], p. 205&lt;/ref&gt; Expecting to be withdrawn within a few days, he also abandoned the outer defenses, which were promptly occupied by the besiegers and hastened British defeat.&lt;ref name=&quot;4QJnx&quot;&gt;[[#lengel2005|Lengel 2005]], p. 337&lt;/ref&gt; On August 31, a Royal Navy fleet under [[Thomas Graves, 1st Baron Graves|Thomas Graves]] left New York for Yorktown.&lt;ref name=&quot;xdltf&quot;&gt;[[#middleton2014|Middleton 2014]], pp. 29–43&lt;/ref&gt; After landing troops and munitions for the besiegers on August 30, de Grasse remained in Chesapeake Bay and intercepted him on September 5; although the [[Battle of the Chesapeake]] was indecisive in terms of losses, Graves was forced to retreat, leaving Cornwallis isolated.&lt;ref name=&quot;pTsmW&quot;&gt;[[#black1992|Black 1992]], p. 110&lt;/ref&gt; An attempted breakout over [[York River (Virginia)|York River]] at [[Gloucester County, Virginia#Gloucester County formation and divisions|Gloucester Point]] failed due to bad weather.&lt;ref name=&quot;0d9W7&quot;&gt;[[#dale2005|Dale 2005]], pp. 36–37&lt;/ref&gt; Under heavy bombardment with dwindling supplies, on October 16 Cornwallis sent emissaries to General Washington to negotiate surrender; after twelve hours of negotiations, the terms of surrender were finalized the following day.&lt;ref name=&quot;g66wL&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], pp. 534–535&lt;/ref&gt; Responsibility for defeat was the subject of fierce public debate between Cornwallis, Clinton, and Germain. Clinton ultimately took most of the blame and spent the rest of his life in relative obscurity.&lt;ref name=&quot;irWjD&quot;&gt;[[#middleton2014|Middleton 2014]], pp. 370–372&lt;/ref&gt; Subsequent to Yorktown, American forces were assigned to supervise the armistice between Washington and Clinton made to facilitate British departure following the January 1782 law of Parliament forbidding any further British offensive action in North America. British-American negotiations in Paris led to signed preliminary agreements in November 1782, which acknowledged U.S. independence. The enacted [[United States Congress|Congressional]] war objective, a British withdrawal from North America and cession of these regions to the U.S., was completed in stages in East Coast cities.&lt;ref name=&quot;OtLkf&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2003|Ferling 2003]], pp. 378–379&lt;/ref&gt; In the U.S. South, Generals Greene and Wayne observed the British remove their troops from Charleston on December 14, 1782.&lt;ref name=&quot;FF82B&quot;&gt;[[#fiske1902|Fiske 1902]], p. 516&lt;/ref&gt; Loyalist provincial militias of whites and free blacks and Loyalists with slaves were transported to Nova Scotia and the British West Indies.{{efn|In Nova Scotia, a province that had been a Massachusetts county in the 1600s, British settlement of freed black Loyalists from the American Revolutionary War secured its Canadian claim there. Britain continued its last &quot;Bourbon War&quot; with the French and Spanish primarily amidst their mutually conflicting territorial claims adjacent the Caribbean Sea, including Jamaica, adjacent the Mediterranean Sea including [[Siege of Gibraltar|Gibraltar]] and Isla Mallorca, and adjacent the Indian Ocean during the [[Second Mysore War]].}} Native American allies of the British and some freed blacks were left to escape unaided through the American lines. On April 9, 1783, Washington issued orders that &quot;all acts of hostility&quot; were to cease immediately. That same day, by arrangement with Washington, Carleton issued a similar order to British troops.&lt;ref name=&quot;zaInj&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], p. 553&lt;/ref&gt; As directed by a Congressional resolution of May 26, 1783, all non-commissioned officers and enlisted were furloughed &quot;to their homes&quot; until the &quot;definitive treaty of peace&quot;, when they would be automatically discharged. The U.S. armies were directly disbanded in the field as of Washington's General Orders on June 2, 1783.&lt;ref name=&quot;clMCt&quot;&gt;[[#armour1941|Armour 1941]], p. 350&lt;/ref&gt; Once the Treaty of Paris was signed with Britain on September 3, 1783, Washington resigned as commander-in-chief of the Continental Army.&lt;ref name=&quot;OtLkf&quot; /&gt; The last British occupation of New York City ended on November 25, 1783, with the departure of Clinton's replacement, General Sir [[Guy Carleton, 1st Baron Dorchester|Guy Carleton]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Xx5DW&quot;&gt;[[#fleming2006|Fleming 2006]], p. 312&lt;/ref&gt; ==Strategy and commanders== [[File:USMA01 Major Campaigns of the American Revolutionary War.jpg|thumb|alt=West Point Military Academy MAP of America east of the Mississippi River. Campaigns noted in New England; in the middle colonies with three British (red sailing ship) naval victories; in the South with two British naval victories, and in Virginia with one French (blue sailing ship) naval victory. A Timeline bar graph below shows almost all British (red bar) victories on the left in the first half of the war, and almost all US (blue bar) victories on the right in the second half of the war.|A map of principal campaigns in the American Revolutionary War&lt;ref name=&quot;BTKUJ&quot;&gt;[[#arwcampaigns|USMA History Dept., Map: &quot;American Revolution Principal Campaigns&quot;]]&lt;/ref&gt; with British movements in red and American movements in blue; the timeline shows the British won most battles in the war's first half, but Americans won the most in the second.]] To win their insurrection, Washington and the Continental Army needed to outlast the British will to fight. To restore [[British America]], the British had to defeat the Continental Army quickly and compel the Second Continental Congress to retract its claim to self-governance.&lt;ref name=&quot;I7Xou&quot;&gt;[[#mays2019|Mays 2019]], pp. 1–2&lt;/ref&gt; Historian Terry M. Mays of [[The Citadel]] identifies three separate types of warfare during the Revolutionary War. The first was a colonial conflict in which objections to imperial trade regulation were as significant as taxation policy. The second was a civil war between American Patriots, American Loyalists, and those who preferred to remain neutral. Particularly in the south, many battles were fought between Patriots and Loyalists with no British involvement, leading to divisions that continued after independence was achieved.&lt;ref name=&quot;StQAE&quot;&gt;[[#mays2019|Mays 2019]], pp. 2–3&lt;/ref&gt; The third element was a global war between France, [[Kingdom of Spain|Spain]], the [[Dutch Republic]], and Britain, with America serving as one of several different war theaters.&lt;ref name=&quot;StQAE&quot; /&gt; After entering the Revolutionary War in 1778, France provided the Americans money, weapons, soldiers, and naval assistance, while French troops fought under U.S. command in North America. While Spain did not formally join the war in America, they provided access to the Mississippi River and captured British possessions on the [[Gulf of Mexico]] that denied bases to the Royal Navy, [[Invasion of Minorca (1781)|retook Menorca]] and [[Great Siege of Gibraltar|besieged Gibraltar]] in Europe.&lt;ref name=&quot;ONzWM&quot;&gt;[[#davenport1917|Davenport 1917]], p. 168&lt;/ref&gt; Although the Dutch Republic was no longer a major power prior to 1774, they still dominated the European carrying trade, and Dutch merchants made large profits by shipping French-supplied munitions to the Patriots. This ended when Britain declared war in December 1780, and the conflict proved disastrous to the Dutch economy.&lt;ref name=&quot;72JXk&quot;&gt;[[#Scott|Scott 1988]], pp. 572–573&lt;/ref&gt; ===American strategy=== The Second Continental Congress stood to benefit if the Revolution evolved into a protracted war. Colonial state populations were largely prosperous and depended on local production for food and supplies rather than on imports from Britain. The thirteen colonies were spread across most of North American Atlantic seaboard, stretching 1,000 miles. Most colonial farms were remote from the seaports, and control of four or five major ports did not give Britain control over American inland areas. Each state had established internal distribution systems.&lt;ref name=&quot;lNS5K&quot;&gt;[[#jgreene2008|Greene &amp; Pole 2008]], pp. 36–39&lt;/ref&gt; Motivation was also a major asset: each colonial capital had its [[Early American publishers and printers|own newspapers and printers]], and the Patriots enjoyed more popular support than the Loyalists. Britain hoped that the Loyalists would do much of the fighting, but found that the Loyalists did not engage as significantly as they had hoped.&lt;ref name=&quot;6bqxv&quot; /&gt; ====Continental Army==== {{Main|Continental Army}} {{See also|Militia (United States)#American Revolutionary War (1775-1783)|Minutemen}} [[File:George Washington, 1776.jpg|thumb|A 1776 portrait of [[George Washington|Washington]] by [[Charles Willson Peale]], now housed in the [[Brooklyn Museum]]|alt=Formal painting of General George Washington, standing in uniform, as commander-in-chief of the Continental Army]] When the Revolutionary War began, the Second Continental Congress lacked a professional army or navy. However, each of the colonies had a long-established system of local militia, which were combat-tested in support of British regulars in the French and Indian War. The colonial state legislatures independently funded and controlled their local militias.&lt;ref name=&quot;lNS5K&quot;/&gt; Militiamen were lightly armed, had little training, and usually did not have uniforms. Their units served for only a few weeks or months at a time and lacked the training and discipline of more experienced soldiers. Local county militias were reluctant to travel far from home and were unavailable for extended operations.&lt;ref name=&quot;JOPiQ&quot;&gt;[[#black2001|Black 2001]]&amp;nbsp;[1991], p. 59&lt;/ref&gt; To compensate for this, the Continental Congress established a regular force known as the Continental Army on June 14, 1775, which proved to be the origin of the modern [[United States Army]], and appointed Washington as its commander-in-chief. However, it suffered significantly from the lack of an effective training program and from largely inexperienced officers.&lt;ref name=&quot;4DbAi&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], pp. 286–287&lt;/ref&gt; Each state legislature appointed officers for both county and state militias and their regimental Continental line officers; although Washington was required to accept Congressional appointments, he was permitted to choose and command his own generals, such as Greene; his chief of artillery, Knox; and [[Alexander Hamilton]], the chief of staff.&lt;ref name=&quot;pSJBj&quot;&gt;[[#higginbotham1987|Higginbotham 1987]], Chap. 3&lt;/ref&gt; One of Washington's most successful general officer recruits was Steuben, a veteran of the Prussian general staff who wrote the [[Revolutionary War Drill Manual]].&lt;ref name=&quot;4DbAi&quot; /&gt; The development of the Continental Army was always a work in progress and Washington used both his regulars and state militias throughout the war; when properly employed, the combination allowed them to overwhelm smaller British forces, as they did in battles at Concord, Boston, Bennington, and Saratoga. Both sides used partisan warfare, but the state militias effectively suppressed Loyalist activity when British regulars were not in the area.&lt;ref name=&quot;JOPiQ&quot; /&gt;{{Efn|Three branches of the United States Military trace their roots to the American Revolutionary War; the Army comes from the [[Continental Army]]; the Navy comes from the [[Continental Navy]], appointing [[Esek Hopkins]] as the Navy's first commander.&lt;ref name=&quot;63K4s&quot;&gt;[[#miller1997|Miller 1997]], pp. 11–12, 16&lt;/ref&gt; The Marine Corps links to the [[Continental Marines]], created by Congress on November 10, 1775.&lt;ref name=&quot;ztc3C&quot;&gt;[[#smithD2012|Smith, D. 2012]], pp. iv, 459&lt;/ref&gt;}} Washington designed the overall military strategy in cooperation with Congress, established the principle of civilian supremacy in military affairs, personally recruited his senior officer corps, and kept the states focused on a common goal.&lt;ref name=&quot;l3gHY&quot;&gt;[[#lengel2005|Lengel 2005]], pp. 365–371&lt;/ref&gt; Washington initially employed the inexperienced officers and untrained troops in [[Fabian strategy|Fabian strategies]] rather than risk frontal assaults against Britain's professional forces.&lt;ref name=&quot;UxzJ5&quot;&gt;[[#ellis2004|Ellis 2004]], pp. 92–109&lt;/ref&gt; Over the course of the war, Washington lost more battles than he won, but he never surrendered his troops and maintained a fighting force in the face of British field armies.&lt;ref name=&quot;oBjRC&quot;&gt;[[#alexrose|Rose, A. 2014]]&amp;nbsp;[2006], pp. 258–261&lt;/ref&gt; By prevailing European standards, the armies in America were relatively small, limited by lack of supplies and logistics. The British were constrained by the logistical difficulty of transporting troops across the Atlantic and their dependence on local supplies. Washington never directly commanded more than 17,000 men,&lt;ref name=&quot;6Djag&quot;&gt;[[#boatner74|Boatner 1974]], p. 264&lt;/ref&gt; and the combined Franco-American army in the decisive American victory at [[Battle of Yorktown|Yorktown]] was only about 19,000.&lt;ref name=&quot;mtUen&quot;&gt;[[#duffy1987|Duffy 2005]]&amp;nbsp;[1987], p. 13&lt;/ref&gt; At the beginning of 1776, Patriot forces consisted of 20,000 men, with two-thirds in the Continental Army and the other third in the state militias. About 250,000 American men served as regulars or as militia for the revolutionary cause during the war, but there were never more than 90,000 men under arms at any time.&lt;ref name=&quot;0HyhO&quot;&gt;[[#crocker|Crocker 2006]], p. 51&lt;/ref&gt; On the whole, American officers never equaled their British opponents in tactics and maneuvers, and they lost most of the pitched battles. The great successes at Boston (1776), Saratoga (1777), and [[Siege of Yorktown|Yorktown]] (1781) were won by trapping the British far from base with a greater number of troops.&lt;ref name=&quot;pSJBj&quot; /&gt; After 1778, Washington's army was transformed into a more disciplined and effective force, mostly as a product of [[Baron von Steuben]]'s military training.&lt;ref name=&quot;4DbAi&quot; /&gt; Immediately after the Continental Army emerged from Valley Forge in June 1778, it proved its ability to match the military capabilities of the British at the Battle of Monmouth, including a black [[Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations|Rhode Island]] regiment fending off a British bayonet attack and then counter charging the British for the first time as part of Washington's army.&lt;ref name=&quot;kgNGc&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], pp. 294–295&lt;/ref&gt; After the Battle of Monmouth, Washington came to realize that saving entire towns was not necessary, but preserving his army and keeping the revolutionary spirit alive was more important. Washington informed [[Henry Laurens]], then president of the Second Continental Congress,{{Efn|Laurens was president of the Second Continental Congress at this time.&lt;ref name=&quot;6CNkb&quot;&gt;Jillson and Wilson, 1994, p. 77&lt;/ref&gt;}} &quot;that the possession of our towns, while we have an army in the field, will avail them little.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;76ZOZ&quot;&gt;[[#chernow2010|Chernow, 2010]], p. 344&lt;/ref&gt; Although the Continental Congress was responsible for the war effort and provided supplies to the troops, Washington took it upon himself to pressure Congress and the state legislatures to provide the essentials of war; there was never nearly enough.&lt;ref name=&quot;CX4G4&quot;&gt;[[#carp1990|Carp 1990]], p. 220&lt;/ref&gt; Congress evolved in its committee oversight and established the Board of War, which included members of the military.&lt;ref name=&quot;rBEkF&quot;&gt;[[#harwell2011|Freeman and Harwell (ed.)]], p. 42&lt;/ref&gt; Because the Board of War was also a committee ensnared with its own internal procedures, Congress also created the post of [[United States Secretary of War|Secretary of War]], appointing Major General Benjamin Lincoln to the position in February 1781. Washington worked closely with Lincoln to coordinate civilian and military authorities and took charge of training and supplying the army.&lt;ref name=&quot;t1m52&quot;&gt;[[#bell2005|Bell 2005]], pp. 3–4&quot;&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;4DbAi&quot; /&gt; ====Continental Navy==== {{Main|Continental Navy|Continental Marines}} {{see also|Privateer#American_Revolutionary_War|Whaleboat War}} {{Further|Naval battles of the American Revolutionary War}} [[File:First_Recognition_of_the_American_Flag_by_a_Foreign_Government.jpg|thumb|alt= Sail warships at sea with full sail; in the center middle ground, the US ship; in the background, four French warships in a haze giving it a cannon salute with gunpowder; small boats also in the water in the middle ground.|[[USS Ranger (1777)|USS ''Ranger'']] commanded by Captain [[John Paul Jones]]]] During the first summer of the war, Washington began outfitting schooners and other small seagoing vessels to prey on ships supplying the British in Boston.&lt;ref name=&quot;N26y3&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], p. 360&lt;/ref&gt; The Second Continental Congress established the Continental Navy on October 13, 1775, and appointed [[Esek Hopkins]] as its first commander;&lt;ref name=&quot;ofLtd&quot;&gt;[[#miller1997|Miller 1997]]&amp;nbsp;[1977], pp. 11–12, 16&lt;/ref&gt; for most of the war, the Continental Navy included only a handful of small frigates and sloops, supported by privateers.&lt;ref name=&quot;o5APS&quot;&gt;[[#higginbotham1987|Higginbotham 1987]]&amp;nbsp;[1971], pp. 331–346&lt;/ref&gt; On November 10, 1775, Congress authorized the creation of the [[Continental Marines]], which ultimately evolved into the [[United States Marine Corps]].&lt;ref name=&quot;ztc3C&quot; /&gt; John Paul Jones became the first American naval hero when he captured [[HMS Drake (1777)|HMS ''Drake'']] on April 24, 1778, the first victory for any American military vessel in British waters.&lt;ref name=&quot;L9ds0&quot;&gt;[[#higginbotham1983|Higginbotham 1983]]&amp;nbsp;[1971], pp. 331–346&lt;/ref&gt; The last such victory was by the frigate [[USS Alliance (1778)|USS ''Alliance'']], commanded by Captain [[John Barry (naval officer)|John Barry]]. On March 10, 1783, the ''Alliance'' outgunned HMS ''Sybil'' in a 45-minute duel while escorting Spanish gold from Havana to the Congress in Philadelphia.&lt;ref name=&quot;unG7V&quot;&gt;[[#thomas2017|Thomas 2017]], &quot;Last Naval Battle&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; After Yorktown, all US Navy ships were sold or given away; it was the first time in America's history that it had no fighting forces on the high seas.&lt;ref name=&quot;jC7za&quot;&gt;[[#daughan2011|Daughan 2011]]&amp;nbsp;[2008], p. 240&lt;/ref&gt; Congress primarily commissioned privateers to reduce costs and to take advantage of the large proportion of colonial sailors found in the British Empire. In total, they included 1,700 ships that successfully captured 2,283 enemy ships to damage the British effort and to enrich themselves with the proceeds from the sale of cargo and the ship itself.&lt;ref name=&quot;OVxVT&quot;&gt;, &quot;Privateers&quot;&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|In what was known as the [[Whaleboat War]], American privateers mainly from [[Province of New Jersey|New Jersey]], [[Brooklyn]], and [[Connecticut Colony|Connecticut]] attacked and robbed British merchant ships and raided and robbed coastal communities of [[Long Island]] reputed to have Loyalist sympathies.&lt;ref name=&quot;dqbl5&quot;&gt;[[#philbrick2016|Philbrick 2016]], p. 237&lt;/ref&gt;}} About 55,000 sailors served aboard American privateers during the war.&lt;ref name=&quot;usmm&quot; /&gt; ===France=== {{Main|France in the American Revolution}} {{Further|History of the French Navy#Louis XVI|Military history of France#Ancien Régime}} At the beginning of the war, the Americans had no major international allies, since most nation-states waited to see how the conflict unfolded. Over time, the Continental Army established its military credibility. Battles such as the Battle of Bennington, the Battles of Saratoga, and even defeats such as the Battle of Germantown, proved decisive in gaining the support of powerful European nations, including France, Spain, and the [[Fourth Anglo-Dutch War#Background|Dutch Republic]]; the Dutch moved from covertly supplying the Americans with weapons and supplies to overtly supporting them.&lt;ref name=&quot;zaqGl&quot;&gt;[[#trevelyan1912a|Trevelyan 1912a]], p. 249&lt;/ref&gt; The decisive American victory at Saratoga convinced [[France in the American Revolutionary War|France]], which was already a long-time rival of Britain, to offer the Americans the Treaty of Amity and Commerce. The two nations also agreed to a defensive Treaty of Alliance to protect their trade and also guaranteed American independence from Britain. To engage the United States as a French ally militarily, the treaty was conditioned on Britain initiating a war on France to stop it from trading with the U.S. Spain and the Dutch Republic were invited to join by both France and the United States in the treaty, but neither was responsive to the request.&lt;ref name=&quot;yOYGS&quot;&gt;[[#morgan2012|Morgan 2012]]&amp;nbsp;[1956], pp. 82–83&lt;/ref&gt; On June 13, 1778, France declared war on Great Britain, and it invoked the French military alliance with the U.S., which ensured additional U.S. private support for French possessions in the [[Caribbean]].{{Efn|King George III feared that the war's prospects would make it unlikely he could reclaim the North American colonies.&lt;ref name=&quot;JuC0w&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum97|Ketchum 1997]], p. 447&lt;/ref&gt; During the later years of the Revolution, the British were drawn into numerous other conflicts about the globe.&lt;ref name=&quot;OqppY&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum97|Ketchum 1997]], pp. 405–448&lt;/ref&gt;}} Washington worked closely with the soldiers and navy that France would send to America, primarily through Lafayette on his staff. French assistance made critical contributions required to defeat Cornwallis at Yorktown in 1781.&lt;ref name=&quot;fNRxX&quot;&gt;[[#davis75|Davis 1975]], pp. 203, 303, 391&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|The final elements for US victory over Britain and US independence was assured by direct military intervention from France, as well as ongoing French supply and commercial trade over the final three years of the war.&lt;ref name=&quot;jPPnA&quot;&gt;[[#higginbotham1983|Higginbotham 1983]]&amp;nbsp;[1971], pp. 188–198&lt;/ref&gt;}} ===British strategy=== {{Further|Seven Years' War}} The British military had considerable experience fighting in North America.&lt;ref name=&quot;cdOwo&quot;&gt;[[#cave2004|Cave 2004]], pp. 21–22&lt;/ref&gt; However, in previous conflicts they benefited from local logistics and support from the colonial militia. In the American Revolutionary War, reinforcements had to come from Europe, and maintaining large armies over such distances was extremely complex; ships could take three months to cross the Atlantic, and orders from London were often outdated by the time they arrived.&lt;ref name=&quot;HZaQ9&quot;&gt;[[#jgreene2008|Greene &amp; Pole 2008]], pp. 298, 306&lt;/ref&gt; Prior to the conflict, the colonies were largely autonomous economic and political entities, with no centralized area of ultimate strategic importance.&lt;ref name=&quot;Jvdgy&quot;&gt;[[#rosssman2016|Rossman 2016]], p. 2&lt;/ref&gt; This meant that, unlike Europe where the fall of a capital city often ended wars, that in America continued even after the loss of major settlements such as Philadelphia, the seat of Congress, New York, and Charleston.&lt;ref name=&quot;WTNUb&quot;&gt;[[#curtis1926|Curtis 1926]], pp. 148–149&lt;/ref&gt; British power was reliant on the Royal Navy, whose dominance allowed them to resupply their own expeditionary forces while preventing access to enemy ports. However, the majority of the American population was agrarian, rather than urban; supported by the French navy and blockade runners based in the [[Dutch Caribbean]], their economy was able to survive.&lt;ref name=&quot;Pole 2004&quot;&gt;[[#jgreene2008|Greene &amp; Pole 2008]], pp. 42, 48&lt;/ref&gt; [[Frederick North, 2nd Earl of Guilford|Lord North]], Prime Minister since 1770, delegated control of the war in North America to [[Lord George Germain]] and the [[John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich|Earl of Sandwich]], who was [[First Lord of the Admiralty|head of the Royal Navy]] from 1771 to 1782. Defeat at Saratoga in 1777 made it clear the revolt would not be easily suppressed, especially after the Franco-American alliance of February 1778. With Spain also expected to join the conflict, the Royal Navy needed to prioritize either the war in America or in Europe; Germain advocated the former, Sandwich the latter.&lt;ref name=&quot;Zfq4g&quot;&gt;[[#syrett1998|Syrett 1998]], pp. 18–22&lt;/ref&gt; North initially backed the Southern strategy attempting to exploit divisions between the mercantile north and slave-owning south, but after the defeat of Yorktown, he was forced to accept that this policy had failed.&lt;ref name=&quot;6mBg1&quot;&gt;[[#hibbert|Hibbert 2008]], p. 333&lt;/ref&gt; It was clear the war was lost, although the Royal Navy forced the French to relocate their fleet to the Caribbean in November 1781 and resumed a close blockade of American trade.&lt;ref name=&quot;EiC1K&quot;&gt;[[#davisengerman2006|Davis, L. and Engerman 2006]], p. 64&lt;/ref&gt; The resulting economic damage and rising inflation meant the US was now eager to end the war, while France was unable to provide further loans; Congress could no longer pay its soldiers.&lt;ref name=&quot;q5EIL&quot;&gt;[[#Rappleye2010|Rappleye 2010]], pp. 300–313&lt;/ref&gt; The geographical size of the colonies and limited manpower meant the British could not simultaneously conduct military operations and occupy territory without local support. Debate persists over whether their defeat was inevitable; one British statesman described it as &quot;like trying to conquer a map&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;arzue&quot;&gt;[[#curtis1926|Curtis 1926]], p. 148&lt;/ref&gt; While [[John E. Ferling|Ferling]] argues Patriot victory was nothing short of a miracle,&lt;ref name=&quot;holEy&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], pp. 562–577&lt;/ref&gt; [[Joseph Ellis|Ellis]] suggests the odds always favored the Americans, especially after Howe squandered the chance of a decisive British success in 1776, an &quot;opportunity that would never come again&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;MqYnj&quot;&gt;[[#ellis2013|Ellis 2013]], p. xi&lt;/ref&gt; The US military history speculates the additional commitment of 10,000 fresh troops in 1780 would have placed British victory &quot;within the realm of possibility&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Ma3JT&quot;&gt;[[#stewartR|Stewart, R. 2005]], vol. 4, p. 103&lt;/ref&gt; ====British Army==== {{Main|British Army during the American Revolutionary War}} {{See also|Loyalist (American Revolution)#Military service}} [[File:Thomas Gage John Singleton Copley.jpeg|thumb|upright|alt=Portrait of the British commander-in-chief, Sir Thomas Gage in dress uniform.|Sir [[Thomas Gage]], [[British Army]] Commander from 1763 to 1775]] The expulsion of France from North America in 1763 led to a drastic reduction in British troop levels in the colonies; in 1775, there were only 8,500 regular soldiers among a civilian population of 2.8&amp;nbsp;million.&lt;ref name=&quot;0qbek&quot;&gt;[[#clode1869a|Clode 1869]], Vol. 1, p. 268&lt;/ref&gt; The bulk of military resources in the Americas were focused on defending sugar islands in the Caribbean; [[Colony of Jamaica|Jamaica]] alone generated more revenue than all thirteen American colonies combined.&lt;ref name=&quot;FJWrp&quot;&gt;[[#billias1969|Billias 1969]], p. 83&lt;/ref&gt; With the end of the Seven Years' War, the permanent army in Britain was also cut back, which resulted in administrative difficulties when the war began a decade later.&lt;ref name=&quot;Y118y&quot;&gt;[[#clayton2014|Clayton 2014]], p. 65&lt;/ref&gt; Over the course of the war, there were four separate British commanders-in-chief. The first was Thomas Gage, appointed in 1763, whose initial focus was establishing British rule in former French areas of Canada. Many in London blamed the revolt on his failure to take firm action earlier, and he was relieved after the heavy losses incurred at the Battle of Bunker Hill.&lt;ref name=&quot;cosou&quot;&gt;[[#nessy|O'Shaunessy 2013]], p. 86&lt;/ref&gt; His replacement was Sir William Howe, a member of the Whig faction in Parliament who opposed the policy of coercion advocated by Lord North; Cornwallis, who later surrendered at Yorktown, was one of many senior officers who initially refused to serve in North America.&lt;ref name=&quot;CZWL2&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum97|Ketchum 1997]], p. 76&lt;/ref&gt; The 1775 campaign showed the British overestimated the capabilities of their own troops and underestimated the colonial militia, requiring a reassessment of tactics and strategy,&lt;ref name=&quot;pWpln&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum2014a|Ketchum 2014a]], p. 208&lt;/ref&gt; and allowing the Patriots to take the initiative.&lt;ref name=&quot;57mVs&quot;&gt;[[#miller1959|Miller 1959]], pp. 410–412&lt;/ref&gt; Howe's responsibility is still debated; despite receiving large numbers of reinforcements, Bunker Hill seems to have permanently affected his self-confidence and lack of tactical flexibility meant he often failed to follow up opportunities.&lt;ref name=&quot;r4hyC&quot;&gt;[[#fleming2006|Fleming 2006]], p. 44&lt;/ref&gt; Many of his decisions were attributed to supply problems, such as his failure to pursue Washington's beaten army.&lt;ref name=&quot;MlUcq&quot;&gt;[[#daviesk1972|Davies, K. 1972]], vol. 12 – 1776, 5:93, Howe to Germain, June 7 and July 7, 1776&lt;/ref&gt; Having lost the confidence of his subordinates, he was recalled after Burgoyne surrendered at Saratoga.&lt;ref name=&quot;UkMe5&quot;&gt;[[#nessy|O'Shaunessy 2013]], p. 216&lt;/ref&gt; Following the failure of the Carlisle Commission, British policy changed from treating the Patriots as subjects who needed to be reconciled to enemies who had to be defeated.&lt;ref name=&quot;o6DjZ&quot;&gt;[[#hibbert2000|Hibbert 2000]], pp. 160–161&lt;/ref&gt; In 1778, Howe was replaced by Sir Henry Clinton.&lt;ref name=&quot;eA9wm&quot;&gt;[[#nessy|O'Shaunessy 2013]], p.&lt;/ref&gt; Regarded as an expert on tactics and strategy,&lt;ref name=&quot;UkMe5&quot; /&gt; like his predecessors Clinton was handicapped by chronic supply issues.&lt;ref name=&quot;BZg2c&quot;&gt;[[#daviesk1972|Davies, K. 1972]], vol. 15 – 1778, 5:96, Clinton to Germain, September 15, 1778&lt;/ref&gt; In addition, Clinton's strategy was compromised by conflict with political superiors in London and his colleagues in North America, especially Admiral [[Mariot Arbuthnot]], replaced in early 1781 by Rodney.&lt;ref name=&quot;ap5wX&quot; /&gt; He was neither notified nor consulted when Germain approved Cornwallis's invasion of the south in 1781 and delayed sending him reinforcements believing the bulk of Washington's army was still outside New York City.&lt;ref name=&quot;mWJRm&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum2014b|Ketchum 2014b]], pp. 208–210&lt;/ref&gt; After the surrender at Yorktown, Clinton was relieved by Carleton, whose major task was to oversee the evacuation of Loyalists and British troops from Savannah, Charleston, and New York City.&lt;ref name=&quot;YZsHH&quot;&gt;[[#cashin|Cashin 2005]], &quot;Revolutionary War in Georgia&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; ====German troops==== {{Main|Hessian (soldier)}} [[File:Surrender of the Hessian Troops to General Washington, after The Battle of Trenton. December 1776. Copy of lithograph, 1 - NARA - 532880.tif|thumb|alt=Hessian troops surrender after Battle of Trenton, December 1776 |[[Hessian (soldier)|Hessian]] troops surrender after [[George Washington|Washington]]'s victory at the [[Battle of Trenton]] in December 1776]] During the 18th century, states commonly [[Soldatenhandel|hired foreign soldiers]], including Britain.&lt;ref name=&quot;jSAGZ&quot;&gt;[[#baer2015|Baer 2015]], p. 115&lt;/ref&gt; When it became clear additional troops were needed to suppress the revolt in America, it was decided to employ [[Germans in the American Revolution#Allies of Great Britain|professional German soldiers]]. There were several reasons for this, including public sympathy for the Patriot cause, a historical reluctance to expand the British army and the time needed to recruit and train new regiments.&lt;ref name=&quot;cCTlC&quot;&gt;[[#baer2015|Baer 2015]], p. 117&lt;/ref&gt; Many smaller states in the [[Holy Roman Empire]] had a long tradition of renting their armies to the highest bidder. The most important was [[Landgraviate of Hesse-Kassel|Hesse-Kassel]], known as &quot;the Mercenary State&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;NNZE8&quot;&gt;[[#showalter2007|Showalter 2007]], &quot;Best armies money could buy&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; The first supply agreements were signed by the North administration in late 1775; 30,000 Germans served in the American War.&lt;ref name=&quot;btSGH&quot;&gt;[[#baer2015|Baer 2015]], pp. 111–112&lt;/ref&gt; Often generically referred to as &quot;Hessians&quot;, they included men from many other states, including [[Electorate of Brunswick-Lüneburg|Hanover]] and Brunswick.&lt;ref name=&quot;srbv4&quot;&gt;[[#fetter1980|Fetter 1980]], p. 508&lt;/ref&gt; Sir Henry Clinton recommended recruiting Russian troops whom he rated very highly, having seen them in action against the [[Russo-Turkish War (1768–1774)|Ottomans]]; however, negotiations with [[Catherine the Great]] made little progress.&lt;ref name=&quot;IqLsU&quot;&gt;[[#baer2015|Baer 2015]], pp. 118–119&lt;/ref&gt; Unlike previous wars their use led to intense political debate in Britain, France, and even Germany, where [[Frederick the Great]] refused to provide passage through his territories for troops hired for the American war.&lt;ref name=&quot;schmidt208-209&quot;&gt;[[#schmidt1958|Schmidt 1958]], pp. 208–209&lt;/ref&gt; In March 1776, the agreements were challenged in Parliament by Whigs who objected to &quot;coercion&quot; in general, and the use of foreign soldiers to subdue &quot;British subjects&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;vyLv6&quot;&gt;[[#baer2015|Baer 2015]], pp. 121, 141–142&lt;/ref&gt; The debates were covered in detail by American newspapers; in May 1776 they received copies of the treaties themselves, provided by British sympathizers and smuggled into North America from London.&lt;ref name=&quot;tIwST&quot;&gt;[[#baer2015|Baer 2015]], pp. 143–144&lt;/ref&gt; The prospect of foreign German soldiers being used in the colonies bolstered support for independence, more so than taxation and other acts combined; the King was accused of declaring war on his own subjects, leading to the idea there were now two separate governments.&lt;ref name=&quot;ImWYT&quot;&gt;[[#baer2015|Baer 2015]], pp. 136–143&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;juHEN&quot;&gt;[[#oshaughnessy2004|O'Saughnessy, 2004]], p. 20&lt;/ref&gt; By apparently showing Britain was determined to go to war, it made hopes of reconciliation seem naive and hopeless, while the employment of what was regarded as &quot;foreign mercenaries&quot; became one of the charges levelled against George III in the Declaration of Independence.&lt;ref name=&quot;schmidt208-209&quot; /&gt; The Hessian reputation within Germany for brutality also increased support for the Patriot cause among German American immigrants.&lt;ref name=&quot;taPBr&quot;&gt;[[#baer2015|Baer 2015]], p. 142&lt;/ref&gt; The presence of over 150,000 [[German Americans]] meant both sides felt the German soldiers might be persuaded to desert; one reason Clinton suggested employing Russians was that he felt they were less likely to defect. When the first German troops arrived on Staten Island in August 1776, Congress approved the printing of handbills, promising land and citizenship to any willing to join the Patriot cause. The British launched a counter-campaign claiming deserters could be executed.&lt;ref name=&quot;mauch415&quot;&gt;[[#mauch2003|Mauch 2003]], p. 415&lt;/ref&gt; Desertion among the Germans occurred throughout the war, with the highest rate of desertion occurring between the surrender at Yorktown and the Treaty of Paris.&lt;ref name=&quot;Nf6u9&quot;&gt;[[#atwood2002|Atwood, 2002]], p. 194&lt;/ref&gt; German regiments were central to the British war effort; of the estimated 30,000 sent to America, some 13,000 became casualties.&lt;ref name=&quot;bnmql&quot;&gt;[[#lowell84|Lowell 1884]], pp. 20–21, 282–283&lt;/ref&gt; ==Revolution as civil war== ===Loyalists=== {{Main|Loyalist (American Revolution)}} {{See also|American Legion (Great Britain)|Prince of Wales' American Regiment}} [[File:KingsMountain DeathOfFerguson Chappel.jpg|thumb|alt=A wounded British officer falls from his horse after being struck by gunfire; another British officer to his rights puts his hands forwards to support the wounded rider; troops skirmish in the background; men lie dead at the riders feet.|American [[Patriot (American Revolution)|Patriots]] routed [[Loyalist (American Revolution)|Loyalists]] at the [[Battle of Kings Mountain]] in 1780, raising Patriot morale.]] Wealthy Loyalists convinced the British government that most of the colonists were sympathetic toward the Crown;&lt;ref name=&quot;6cWCe&quot;&gt;[[#ritcheson|Ritcheson 1973]], p. 6&lt;/ref&gt; consequently, British military planners relied on recruiting Loyalists, but had trouble recruiting sufficient numbers as the Patriots had widespread support.&lt;ref name=&quot;JOPiQ&quot; /&gt;{{Efn|On militia see Boatner 1974, p.&amp;nbsp;707;&lt;br /&gt;Weigley 1973, ch.&amp;nbsp;2}} Approximately 25,000 Loyalists fought for the British throughout the war.&lt;ref name=&quot;savas41&quot; /&gt; Although Loyalists constituted about twenty percent of the colonial population,&lt;ref name=&quot;Greene p. 235&quot; /&gt; they were concentrated in distinct communities. Many of them lived among large plantation owners in the [[Tidewater (region)|Tidewater region]] and [[South Carolina in the American Revolution#Early conflicts|South Carolina]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Greene p. 235&quot; /&gt; When the British began probing the backcountry in 1777–1778, they were faced with a major problem: any significant level of organized Loyalist activity required a continued presence of British regulars.&lt;ref name=&quot;Gu69t&quot;&gt;[[#black2001|Black 2001]]&amp;nbsp;[1991], p. 12&lt;/ref&gt; The available manpower that the British had in America was insufficient to protect Loyalist territory and counter American offensives.&lt;ref name=&quot;xeYC7&quot;&gt;[[#black2001|Black 2001]]&amp;nbsp;[1991], pp. 13–14&lt;/ref&gt; The Loyalist militias in the South were constantly defeated by neighboring Patriot militia. The Patriot victory at the Battle of Kings Mountain irreversibly impaired Loyalist militia capability in the South.&lt;ref name=&quot;NcMDc&quot; /&gt; When the early war policy was administered by Howe, the Crown's need to maintain Loyalist support prevented it from using the traditional revolt suppression methods.&lt;ref name=&quot;m4e3v&quot;&gt;[[#black2001|Black 2001]]&amp;nbsp;[1991], p. 14&lt;/ref&gt; The British cause suffered when their troops ransacked local homes during an aborted attack on Charleston in 1779 that enraged both Patriots and Loyalists.&lt;ref name=&quot;yBaSD&quot; /&gt; After Congress rejected the [[Carlisle Peace Commission]] in 1778 and Westminster turned to &quot;hard war&quot; during Clinton's command, neutral colonists in the Carolinas often allied with the Patriots.&lt;ref name=&quot;dh9oI&quot;&gt;[[#black|Black 2001]]&amp;nbsp;[1991], pp. 14–16 [16], 35, 38&lt;/ref&gt; Conversely, Loyalists gained support when Patriots intimidated suspected Tories by destroying property or [[tarring and feathering]].&lt;ref name=&quot;4VC7B&quot;&gt;[[#Calhoon1973|Calhoon 1973]], p. {{Page needed|date=June 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; A Loyalist militia unit—the [[British Legion (American Revolutionary War)|British Legion]]—provided some of the best troops in British service.&lt;!-- Add citation for Babits 1998? --&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;b5poP&quot;&gt;[[#buchanan97|Buchanan 1997]], p. 327&lt;/ref&gt; It was commanded by Tarleton and gained a fearsome reputation in the colonies for &quot;brutality and needless slaughter&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;rankin&quot;&gt;[[#bass|Bass 1957]], pp. 548–550&lt;/ref&gt;{{better source needed|reason=see talk The Green Dragoon|date=May 2023}} {{Clear}} ===Women=== {{Main|Women in the American Revolution}} [[File:Nancy Morgan Hart.gif|thumb|alt=Scene of Nancy Morgan Hart on the left with musket raised and child hiding behind her skirts, and behind; on the right two Loyalist soldiers are lying on the floor, and three are raising their hands defensively in alarm.|[[Nancy Hart]] single-handedly captured six [[Loyalist (American Revolution)|Loyalist]] soldiers who barged into her home intending to ransack it.]] Women played various roles during the Revolutionary War; they often accompanied their husbands when permitted. For example, throughout the war [[Martha Washington]] was known to visit and provide aid to her husband George at various American camps.&lt;ref name=&quot;NsXgO&quot;&gt;[[#chernow2010|Chernow, 2010]], p. 215&lt;/ref&gt; Women often accompanied armies as [[camp follower]]s to sell goods and perform necessary tasks in hospitals and camps, and numbered in the thousands during the war.&lt;ref name=&quot;s5toN&quot;&gt;[[#dunkerly|Dunkerly 2014]], &quot;Camp Followers&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; Women also assumed military roles: some dressed as men to directly support combat, fight, or act as spies on both sides.&lt;ref name=&quot;HUZJR&quot;&gt;[[#howat2017|Howat 2017]], &quot;Women Spies&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; Anna Maria Lane joined her husband in the Army. The Virginia General Assembly later cited her bravery: she fought while dressed as a man and &quot;performed extraordinary military services, and received a severe wound at the battle of Germantown ... with the courage of a soldier&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;F5oSv&quot;&gt;[[#womens2009|Historical Essay 2009]]&lt;/ref&gt; On April 26, 1777, [[Sybil Ludington]] is said to have ridden to alert militia forces to the British's approach; she has been called the &quot;female Paul Revere&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;om7F0&quot;&gt;[[#hunt2015|Hunt 2015]], pp. 188–222&lt;/ref&gt; Whether the ride occurred is questioned.&lt;ref name=Hunt&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Hunt|first=Paula D.|date=June 2015|title=Sybil Ludington, the Female Paul Revere: The Making of a Revolutionary War Heroine |journal=[[The New England Quarterly]]|volume=88|issue=2|pages=187–222|doi=10.1162/TNEQ_a_00452|s2cid=57569643|issn=0028-4866|doi-access=free}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=Tucker&gt;{{cite news |title= Did the Midnight Ride of Sibyl Ludington Ever Happen? |last= Tucker |first= Abigail |date= March 2022 |access-date= July 6, 2022 |url= https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/did-midnight-ride-sibyl-ludington-ever-happen-180979557/ |work= [[Smithsonian (magazine)|Smithsonian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name= Lewis&gt;{{cite web |url= https://www.thoughtco.com/sybil-ludington-biography-3530671 |title= Sybil Ludington, Possible Female Paul Revere |publisher= [[ThoughtCo]] |date= August 15, 2019 |access-date= July 6, 2022 |last= Lewis |first= Jone Johnson}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=Eschner&gt;{{cite news |url= https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonianmag/was-there-really-teenage-female-paul-revere-180962993/ |work= [[Smithsonian (magazine)|Smithsonian]] |title= Was There Really a Teenage, Female Paul Revere? |last= Eschner |first= Kat |date= April 26, 2017 |access-date= July 6, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; A few others [[List of wartime cross-dressers|disguised themselves as men]]. [[Deborah Sampson]] fought until her gender was discovered and she was discharged as a result; [[Sally St. Clair]] was killed in action.&lt;ref name=&quot;F5oSv&quot; /&gt; ===African Americans=== {{Main|African Americans in the Revolutionary War}} [[File:Soldiers at the siege of Yorktown (1781), by Jean-Baptiste-Antoine DeVerger.png|thumb|alt=A scene of four uniformed soldiers of the Continental 1st Rhode Island Regiment. On the left, a black and a white soldier formally at &quot;Attention&quot; with Brown Bess muskets; on the right, a downcast white soldier walking back into formation with an officer barking at him holding a cat-o-nine tails for flogging.|[[Continental Army]] soldiers, including one from the [[1st Rhode Island Regiment]] on the left]] When war began, the population of the Thirteen Colonies included an estimated 500,000 slaves, predominantly used as labor on [[Plantation complexes in the Southern United States|Southern plantations]].&lt;ref name=&quot;517PM&quot;&gt;[[#nash2012|Nash 2012]], p. 251&lt;/ref&gt; In November 1775, Lord Dunmore, the royal governor of Virginia, issued a proclamation that promised freedom to any Patriot-owned slaves willing to bear arms. Although the announcement helped to fill a temporary manpower shortage, white Loyalist prejudice meant recruits were eventually redirected to non-combatant roles. The Loyalists' motive was to deprive Patriot [[Planter class|planters]] of labor rather than to end slavery; Loyalist-owned slaves were returned.&lt;ref name=&quot;CJ6XK&quot;&gt;[[#nash2005|Nash, 2005]], pp. 167–168&lt;/ref&gt; The 1779 [[Philipsburg Proclamation]] issued by Clinton extended the offer of freedom to Patriot-owned slaves throughout the colonies. It persuaded entire families to escape to British lines, many of which were employed growing food for the army by removing the requirement for military service. While Clinton organized the [[Black Pioneers]], he also ensured fugitive slaves were returned to Loyalist owners with orders that they were not to be punished.&lt;ref name=&quot;DKDsq&quot;&gt;[[#blackcancol|Canada' Digital Collections]] &quot;Black Loyalists&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; As the war progressed, service as regular soldiers in British units became increasingly common; Black Loyalists formed two regiments of the Charleston garrison in 1783.&lt;ref name=&quot;bfNHp&quot;&gt;[[#bibko2016|Bibko, 2016]], pp. 68–69&lt;/ref&gt; Estimates of the numbers who served the British during the war vary from 25,000 to 50,000, excluding those who escaped during wartime. Thomas Jefferson estimated that Virginia may have lost 30,000 slaves to escapes.&lt;ref name=&quot;zag2G&quot;&gt;[[#bibko2016|Bibko, 2016]], p. 59&lt;/ref&gt; In South Carolina, nearly 25,000 slaves (about 30 percent of the enslaved population) either fled, migrated, or died, which significantly disrupted the plantation economies both during and after the war.&lt;ref name=&quot;yRG5O&quot;&gt;[[#kolchin1994|Kolchin 1994]], p. 73&lt;/ref&gt; [[Black Patriot]]s were barred from the Continental Army until Washington convinced Congress in January 1778 that there was no other way to replace losses from disease and desertion. The [[1st Rhode Island Regiment]] formed in February included former slaves whose owners were compensated; however, only 140 of its 225 soldiers were black and recruitment stopped in June 1788.&lt;ref name=&quot;Ltvqf&quot;&gt;[[#lanning2012|Lanning 2012]], p. 75&lt;/ref&gt; Ultimately, around 5,000 African Americans served in the Continental Army and Navy in a variety of roles, while another 4,000 were employed in Patriot militia units, aboard privateers, or as teamsters, servants, and spies. After the war, a small minority received land grants or Congressional pensions; many others were returned to their masters post-war despite earlier promises of freedom.&lt;ref name=&quot;aJJzP&quot;&gt;[[#alexander2010|Alexander 2010]], p. 356&lt;/ref&gt; As a Patriot victory became increasingly likely, the treatment of Black Loyalists became a point of contention; after the surrender of Yorktown in 1781, Washington insisted all escapees be returned but Cornwallis refused. In 1782 and 1783, around 8,000 to 10,000 freed blacks were evacuated by the British from Charleston, Savannah, and New York; some moved onto London, while 3,000 to 4,000 settled in Nova Scotia.&lt;ref name=&quot;Bvc5o&quot;&gt;[[#bibko2016|Bibko, 2016]], p. 61&lt;/ref&gt; White Loyalists transported 15,000 enslaved blacks to Jamaica and the [[Bahamas]]. The free Black Loyalists who migrated to the British West Indies included regular soldiers from Dunmore's [[Ethiopian Regiment]], and those from Charleston who helped garrison the [[Leeward Islands]].&lt;ref name=&quot;bfNHp&quot; /&gt; ===Native Americans=== {{Main|Category:Native Americans in the American Revolution}} [[File:Joseph Brant by William Berczy c1794-1797.jpg|thumb|alt=Portrait of British regular army Colonel Joseph Brant, [[Iroquois#American Revolution|Iroquois]] [[Mohawk people#American Revolutionary War|Mohawk]].|Colonel [[Joseph Brant]] of the British-led [[Iroquois#American Revolution|Iroquois]] [[Mohawk people#American Revolutionary War|Mohawks]] in the war]] Most Native Americans east of the Mississippi River were affected by the war, and many tribes were divided over how to respond. A few tribes were friendly with the colonists, but most Natives opposed the union of the Colonies as a potential threat to their territory. Approximately 13,000 Natives fought on the British side, with the largest group coming from the [[Iroquois]] tribes who deployed around 1,500 men.&lt;ref name=&quot;Greene p. 393&quot;&gt;[[#jgreene2008|Greene &amp; Pole 2008]], p. 393&lt;/ref&gt; Early in July 1776, [[Cherokee]] allies of Britain attacked the short-lived [[Washington District, North Carolina|Washington District]] of [[North Carolina Colony|North Carolina]]. Their defeat splintered both Cherokee settlements and people, and was directly responsible for the rise of the [[Chickamauga Cherokee]], who perpetuated the [[Cherokee–American wars]] against American settlers for decades after hostilities with Britain ended.&lt;ref name=&quot;finger2001&quot;&gt;[[#finger2001|Finger 2001]], pp. 43–64&lt;/ref&gt; [[Muscogee]] and [[Seminole]] allies of Britain fought against Americans in Georgia and South Carolina. In 1778, a force of 800 Muscogee destroyed American settlements along the [[Broad River (Georgia)|Broad River]] in Georgia. Muscogee warriors also joined [[Thomas Brown (loyalist)|Thomas Brown]]'s raids into South Carolina and assisted Britain during the siege of Savannah.&lt;ref name=&quot;KPNF9&quot;&gt;[[#wardH1999|Ward, H. 1999]], p. 198&lt;/ref&gt; Many Native Americans were involved in the fight between Britain and Spain on the Gulf Coast and along the British side of the Mississippi River. Thousands of Muscogee, [[Chickasaw]], and [[Choctaw]] fought in major battles such as the [[Battle of Fort Charlotte]], the [[Battle of Mobile (1781)|Battle of Mobile]], and the [[siege of Pensacola]].&lt;ref name=&quot;npQH7&quot;&gt;[[#o'brien2008|O'Brien 2008]], pp. 123–126&lt;/ref&gt; The Iroquois Confederacy was shattered as a result of the American Revolutionary War. The [[Seneca people|Seneca]], [[Onondaga people|Onondaga]], and [[Cayuga people|Cayuga]] tribes sided with the British; members of the [[Mohawk people|Mohawks]] fought on both sides; and many [[Tuscarora people|Tuscarora]] and [[Oneida people|Oneida]] sided with the Americans. To retaliate against raids on American settlement by Loyalists and their Indian allies, the Continental Army dispatched the Sullivan Expedition throughout New York to debilitate the Iroquois tribes that had sided with the British. Mohawk leaders [[Joseph Louis Cook]] and [[Joseph Brant]] sided with the Americans and the British respectively, which further exacerbated the split.&lt;ref name=&quot;Q9pmz&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], pp. 200–203&lt;/ref&gt; In the western theater, conflicts between settlers and Native Americans led to lingering distrust.&lt;ref name=&quot;y9yCm&quot;&gt;[[#reidD2017|Reid, D. 2017]], p.&lt;/ref&gt; In the 1783 Treaty of Paris, Great Britain ceded control of the disputed lands between the Great Lakes and the [[Ohio River]], but Native inhabitants were not a part of the peace negotiations.&lt;ref name=&quot;lsicb&quot;&gt;[[#carroll2001|Carroll 2001]], p. 24&lt;/ref&gt; Tribes in the Northwest Territory joined as the [[Western Confederacy]] and allied with the British to resist American settlement, and their conflict continued after the Revolutionary War as the [[Northwest Indian War]].&lt;ref name=&quot;BnzRx&quot;&gt;[[#ferling2007|Ferling 2007]], pp. 354–355&lt;/ref&gt; ==Peace negotiations== {{Further|Treaty of Paris (1783)|l1=Treaty of Paris (1783)}} [[File:Treaty of Paris by Benjamin West 1783.jpg|thumb|alt=Portrait of the four principal US ministers in Paris; left to right, John Jay, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Henry Laurens, and their secretary on the far right.|''[[Treaty of Paris (painting)|Treaty of Paris]]'' by [[Benjamin West]] portrays the [[Treaty of Paris (1783)|American mission]] of (left–right): [[John Jay]], [[John Adams]], [[Benjamin Franklin]], [[Henry Laurens]], and [[William Temple Franklin]]. The portrait was never completed because the British commissioners refused to pose. Laurens, pictured, was actually in London at the time it was painted.&lt;ref name=&quot;Usbu7&quot;&gt;[[#morris1965|Morris, R.B. Morris 1983]]&amp;nbsp;[1965], pp. 435–436&lt;/ref&gt;]] [[File:Evacuation Day and Washington's Triumphal Entry.jpg|thumb|alt=A New York City street scene with a mounted George Washington riding at the head of a parade.|Washington enters New York City at [[Evacuation Day (New York)|British evacuation]], November 1783. [[St. Paul's Chapel]] is on left. The parade route in 1783 went from [[Bull's Head Tavern]] on [[Bowery]], then continued down [[Chatham Square|Chatham]], [[Pearl Street (Manhattan)|Pearl]], [[Wall Street|Wall]], and ended at Cape's Tavern on [[Broadway (Manhattan)|Broadway]].]] The terms presented by the [[Carlisle Peace Commission]] in 1778 included acceptance of the principle of self-government. Parliament would recognize Congress as the governing body, suspend any objectionable legislation, surrender its right to local colonial taxation, and discuss including American representatives in the House of Commons. In return, all property confiscated from Loyalists would be returned, British debts honored, and locally enforced martial law accepted. However, Congress demanded either immediate recognition of independence or the withdrawal of all British troops; they knew the commission were not authorized to accept these, bringing negotiations to a rapid end.&lt;ref name=&quot;EVGwD&quot;&gt;[[#whiteley1996|Whiteley 1996]], p. 175&lt;/ref&gt; On February 27, 1782, a Whig motion to end the offensive war in America was carried by 19 votes.&lt;ref name=&quot;PpAUy&quot;&gt;[[#namier1985|Namier and Brooke 1985]], p. 246&lt;/ref&gt; North resigned, obliging the king to invite [[Charles Watson-Wentworth, 2nd Marquess of Rockingham|Lord Rockingham]] to form a government; a consistent supporter of the Patriot cause, he made a commitment to U.S. independence a condition of doing so. George III reluctantly accepted and the [[Second Rockingham ministry|new government]] took office on March 27, 1782; however, Rockingham died unexpectedly on July 1, and was replaced by [[Shelburne ministry|Lord Shelburne]] who acknowledged American independence.&lt;ref name=&quot;6fSnW&quot;&gt;[[#wardA1925|Ward and Prothero 1925]], p. 458&lt;/ref&gt; When Lord Rockingham was elevated to Prime Minister, Congress consolidated its diplomatic consuls in Europe into a peace delegation at Paris. The dean of the delegation was Benjamin Franklin. He had become a celebrity in the French Court, but he was also influential in the courts of [[Kingdom of Prussia|Prussia]] and [[Habsburg monarchy|Austria]]. Since the 1760s, Franklin had been an organizer of British American inter-colony cooperation, and then served as a colonial lobbyist to Parliament in London. John Adams had been consul to the Dutch Republic and was a prominent early New England Patriot. [[John Jay]] of New York had been consul to Spain and was a past president of the Continental Congress. As consul to the Dutch Republic, Henry Laurens had secured a preliminary agreement for a trade agreement. Although active in the preliminaries, he was not a signer of the conclusive treaty.&lt;ref name=&quot;OtLkf&quot; /&gt; The Whig negotiators included long-time friend of Franklin [[David Hartley (the Younger)|David Hartley]], and [[Richard Oswald (merchant)|Richard Oswald]], who had negotiated Laurens' release from the Tower of London.&lt;ref name=&quot;OtLkf&quot; /&gt; The Preliminary Peace signed on November 30 met four key Congressional demands: independence, territory up to the Mississippi, navigation rights into the Gulf of Mexico, and fishing rights in Newfoundland.&lt;ref name=&quot;OtLkf&quot; /&gt; British strategy was to strengthen the U.S. sufficiently to prevent France from regaining a foothold in North America, and they had little interest in these proposals.&lt;ref name=&quot;6HMUl&quot;&gt;[[#Black2011|Black 2011]], pp. 117–118&lt;/ref&gt; However, divisions between their opponents allowed them to negotiate separately with each to improve their overall position, starting with the American delegation in September 1782.&lt;ref name=&quot;s8bf9&quot;&gt;[[#Harvey2004|Harvey 2004]], pp. 531–532&lt;/ref&gt; The French and Spanish sought to improve their position by creating the U.S. dependent on them for support against Britain, thus reversing the losses of 1763.&lt;ref name=&quot;0XLAe&quot;&gt;[[#cogliano2003|Cogliano 2003]], p. 85&lt;/ref&gt; Both parties tried to negotiate a settlement with Britain excluding the Americans; France proposed setting the western boundary of the U.S. along the Appalachians, matching the British 1763 Proclamation Line. The Spanish suggested additional concessions in the vital Mississippi River Basin, but required the cession of [[Georgia in the American Revolution|Georgia]] in violation of the Franco-American alliance.&lt;ref name=&quot;0XLAe&quot; /&gt; Facing difficulties with Spain over claims involving the Mississippi River, and from France who was still reluctant to agree to American independence until all her demands were met, John Jay told the British that he was willing to negotiate directly with them, cutting off France and Spain, and Prime Minister Lord Shelburne, in charge of the British negotiations, agreed.&lt;ref name=&quot;iRKom&quot;&gt;[[#morris1965|Morris, 1983]]&amp;nbsp;[1965], pp. 221–323, 331–333&lt;/ref&gt; Key agreements for the United States in obtaining peace included recognition of US independence; all of the territory east of the Mississippi River, north of Florida and south of Canada; and fishing rights in the [[Grand Banks]], off the coast of [[Newfoundland]] and in the [[Gulf of Saint Lawrence]]. The United States and Great Britain were each given perpetual access to the Mississippi River.&lt;ref name=&quot;XAtfM&quot;&gt;[[#dull1975|Dull 1987]]&amp;nbsp;[1975], pp. 144–151&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;dKEt7&quot;&gt;[[#morris1965|Morris, 1983]]&amp;nbsp;[1965], pp. 218–221&lt;/ref&gt; An Anglo-American Preliminary Peace was formally entered into in November 1782, and Congress endorsed the settlement on April 15, 1783. It announced the achievement of peace with independence, and the conclusive treaty was signed on September 2, 1783, in Paris, effective the following day when Britain signed its treaty with France. John Adams, who helped draft the treaty, claimed it represented &quot;one of the most important political events that ever happened on the globe&quot;. Ratified respectively by Congress and Parliament, the final versions were exchanged in Paris the following spring.&lt;ref name=&quot;9BwsN&quot;&gt;[[#lskaplan1983|Kaplan, L. 1983]], &quot;Treaty of Paris&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; On November 25, the last British troops remaining in the U.S. were [[Evacuation Day (New York)|evacuated from New York]] to Halifax.&lt;ref name=&quot;Nuhdu&quot;&gt;[[#ketchum2014b|Ketchum 2014b]], p. 287&lt;/ref&gt; ==Aftermath== {{Main|American Revolution}} ===Territory=== The expanse of territory that was now the U.S. included millions of sparsely settled acres south of the Great Lakes line between the Appalachian Mountains and the Mississippi River, much of which was part of Canada. The tentative colonial migration west became a flood during the war.&lt;ref name=&quot;0xR4w&quot;&gt;[[#herring2011|Herring 2011]]&amp;nbsp;[2008], p. 41&lt;/ref&gt; Britain's extended post-war policy for the U.S. continued to try to establish an [[Indian barrier state]] below the Great Lakes as late as 1814 during the [[War of 1812]]. The formally acquired western American lands continued to be populated by Indigenous tribes that had mostly been British allies.&lt;ref name=&quot;lsicb&quot; /&gt; In practice the British refused to abandon the forts on territory they formally transferred. Instead, they provisioned military allies for continuing frontier raids and sponsored the Northwest Indian War (1785–1795). British sponsorship of local warfare on the U.S. continued until the Anglo-American [[Jay Treaty]], authored by Hamilton, went into effect on February 29, 1796.&lt;ref name=&quot;CrkMd&quot;&gt;Benn 1993, p. 17&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|For the thirteen years prior to the Anglo-American commercial [[Jay Treaty]] of 1796 under President [[George Washington]], the British maintained five forts in New York state: two forts at northern Lake Champlain, and three beginning at [[Fort Niagara]] stretching east along Lake Ontario. In the Northwest Territory, they garrisoned [[Fort Detroit]] and [[Fort Michilimackinac]].&lt;ref name=&quot;1S547&quot;&gt;[[#herring2011|Herring 2011]]&amp;nbsp;[2008], p. 45&lt;/ref&gt;}} Of the European powers with American colonies adjacent to the newly created U.S., Spain was most threatened by American independence, and it was correspondingly the most hostile to it.{{Efn|There had been native-born Spanish (hidalgo) uprisings in several American colonies during the American Revolution, contesting mercantilist reforms of Carlos III that had removed privileges inherited from the Conquistadors among [[encomienda]]s, and they also challenged Jesuit dominance in the Catholic Church there. American ship captains were known to have smuggled banned copies of the Declaration of Independence into Spanish Caribbean ports, provoking Spanish colonial discontent.}} Its territory adjacent to the U.S. was relatively undefended, so Spanish policy developed a combination of initiatives. Spanish soft power diplomatically challenged the British territorial cession west to the Mississippi River and the previous northern boundaries of Spanish Florida.&lt;ref name=&quot;ImmKb&quot;&gt;[[#herring2011|Herring 2011]]&amp;nbsp;[2008], p. 46&lt;/ref&gt; It imposed a high tariff on American goods, then blocked American settler access to the port of New Orleans. At the same time, the Spanish also sponsored war within the U.S. by Indian proxies in its Southwest Territory ceded by France to Britain, then Britain to the Americans.&lt;ref name=&quot;0xR4w&quot; /&gt; ===Casualties and losses=== {{further|Prisoners in the American Revolutionary War}} [[File:Revolutionary War Cemetery, Salem, NY.jpg|thumb|upright|alt=A cemetery; grave stones in the foreground in staggered, irregular rows; behind them grass covered mounds of dead; an American flag in the background along a tree line.|Mass graves from the [[Battles of Saratoga]] in [[Salem, New York]]]] The total loss of life throughout the conflict is largely unknown. As was typical in wars of the era, diseases such as smallpox claimed more lives than battle. Between 1775 and 1782, a [[1775–82 North American smallpox epidemic|smallpox epidemic]] throughout North America killed an estimated 130,000.&lt;ref name=&quot;3kb8Q&quot; /&gt;{{Efn|In addition to as many as 30% deaths in port cities, and especially high rates among the closely confined prisoner-of-war ships, scholars have reported large numbers lost among the Mexican population, and large percentage losses among the American Indian along trade routes, Atlantic to Pacific, Eskimo to Aztec.}} Historian [[Joseph Ellis]] suggests that Washington having his troops [[Variolation|inoculated]] against the disease was one of his most important decisions.&lt;ref name=&quot;VcQK9&quot;&gt;[[#ellis2004|Ellis 2004]], p. 87&lt;/ref&gt; Up to 70,000 American Patriots died during active military service.&lt;ref name=&quot;gNorb&quot;&gt;[[#peckham74|Peckham 1974]], p.&lt;/ref&gt; Of these, approximately 6,800 were killed in battle, while at least 17,000 died from disease. The majority of the latter died while [[prisoners of war]] of the British, mostly in the [[Prisoners in the American Revolutionary War|prison ships]] in New York Harbor.&lt;ref name=&quot;hQzBc&quot;&gt;[[#burrows2008b|Burrows 2008b]], p.{{Page needed|date=May 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|If the upper limit of 70,000 is accepted as the total net loss for the Patriots, it would make the conflict proportionally deadlier than the [[American Civil War]]. Uncertainty arises from the difficulties in accurately calculating the number of those who succumbed to disease, as it is estimated at least 10,000 died in 1776 alone.&lt;ref name=&quot;duncan371&quot; /&gt;}} The number of Patriots seriously wounded or disabled by the war has been estimated from 8,500 to 25,000.&lt;ref name=&quot;Xwtjh&quot;&gt;[[#chambers1999|Chambers 1999]] p. 849&lt;/ref&gt; The French suffered 2,112 killed in combat in the United States.&lt;ref name=&quot;TO8lQ&quot;&gt;[[#CITEREFRignault2004|Dawson 2017]], &quot;Frenchmen who died&quot;&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|Elsewhere around the world, the French lost another approximately 5,000 total dead in conflicts 1778–1784.&lt;ref name=&quot;TO8lQ&quot; /&gt;}} The Spanish lost 124 killed and 247 wounded in West Florida.&lt;ref name=&quot;White 2010, Essay&quot;&gt;[[#white2020|White 2010]], &quot;Essay&quot;&lt;/ref&gt;{{Efn|During the same time period in the [[Fourth Anglo-Dutch War]], the Dutch suffered around 500 total killed, owing to the minor scale of their conflict with Britain.&lt;ref name=&quot;White 2010, Essay&quot; /&gt;}} A British report in 1781 puts their total Army deaths at 6,046 in North America (1775–1779).&lt;ref name=&quot;3kb8Q&quot; /&gt;{{Efn|British returns in 1783 listed 43,633 rank and file deaths across the [[British Armed Forces]].&lt;ref name=&quot;VdGXi&quot;&gt;[[#Burke1785|Burke 1785]], p.&lt;/ref&gt; In the first three years of the Anglo-French War (1778), British list 9,372 soldiers killed in battle across the Americas; and 3,326 in the West Indies (1778–1780).&lt;ref name=&quot;3kb8Q&quot; /&gt; In 1784, a British lieutenant compiled a detailed list of 205 British officers killed in action during British conflicts outside of North America, encompassing Europe, the Caribbean, and the East Indies.&lt;ref name=&quot;g1sff&quot;&gt;[[#inman|Inman 1903]], pp. 203–205&lt;/ref&gt; Extrapolations based upon this list puts British Army losses in the area of at least 4,000 killed or died of wounds outside of its North American engagements.&lt;ref name=&quot;duncan371&quot; /&gt;}} Approximately 7,774 Germans died in British service in addition to 4,888 deserters; among those labeled German deserters, however, it is estimated that 1,800 were killed in combat.&lt;ref name=&quot;duncan371&quot; /&gt;{{Efn|Around 171,000 [[sailors]] served in the [[Royal Navy]] during British conflicts worldwide 1775–1784; approximately a quarter of whom had been [[impressment|pressed]] into service. Around 1,240 were killed in battle, while an estimated 18,500 died from disease (1776–1780).&lt;ref name=&quot;ICbFh&quot;&gt;[[#debret1781|Debret 1781]], p. 269&lt;/ref&gt; The greatest killer at sea was [[scurvy]], a disease caused by [[vitamin C]] deficiency.&lt;ref name=&quot;HKwDq&quot;&gt;[[#scurvy|NIH GARD 2016]], &quot;Scurvy&quot;&lt;/ref&gt; It was not until 1795 that scurvy was eradicated from the [[Royal Navy]] after the Admiralty declared [[lemon juice]] and [[sugar]] were to be issued among the standard daily [[grog]] rations of sailors.&lt;ref name=&quot;xPtQE&quot;&gt;[[#vale2013|Vale 2013]], p. 160&lt;/ref&gt; Around 42,000 sailors [[desertion|deserted]] worldwide during the era.&lt;ref name=&quot;macksey6,176&quot; /&gt; The impact on merchant shipping was substantial; 2,283 were taken by American privateers.&lt;ref name=&quot;OVxVT&quot; /&gt; Worldwide 1775–1784, an estimated 3,386 British [[Merchant Navy (United Kingdom)|merchant ships]] were seized by enemy forces during the war among Americans, French, Spanish, and Dutch.&lt;ref name=&quot;We1Cr&quot;&gt;[[#conway|Conway 1995]], p. 191&lt;/ref&gt;}} ===Legacy=== [[File:Commonsense.jpg|thumb|The U.S. motto ''[[Novus ordo seclorum]]'', meaning &quot;A New Age Now Begins&quot;, is paraphrased from [[Thomas Paine]]'s ''[[Common Sense]]'', published January 10, 1776. &quot;We have it in our power to begin the world over again&quot;, Paine wrote in it.&lt;ref name=&quot;McDonald, Forrest pp. 6&quot;&gt;McDonald, Forrest. ''Novus Ordo Seclorum: The Intellectual Origins of the Constitution,'' pp. 6–7, Lawrence: University Press of Kansas, 1985. {{ISBN|0700602844}}.&lt;/ref&gt;]] The American Revolution set an example to overthrow both monarchy and colonial governments. The United States has the world's oldest written constitution, which was used as a model in other countries, sometimes word-for-word. The Revolution inspired revolutions in France, Haiti, Latin America, and elsewhere.&lt;ref name=&quot;Xqvd2&quot;&gt;[[#bailyn2007|Bailyn, 2007]], pp. 35, 134–149&lt;/ref&gt; Although the Revolution eliminated many forms of inequality, it did little to change the status of women, despite the role they played in winning independence. Most significantly, it failed to end slavery. While many were uneasy over the contradiction of demanding liberty for some, yet denying it to others, the dependence of southern states on slave labor made abolition too great a challenge. Between 1774 and 1780, many of the states banned the importation of slaves, but the institution itself continued.&lt;ref name=&quot;0skc6&quot;&gt;[[#morgan2012|Morgan, 2012]]&amp;nbsp;[1956], pp. 96–97&lt;/ref&gt; In 1782, Virginia passed a law permitting [[manumission]] and over the next eight years more than 10,000 slaves were given their freedom.&lt;ref name=&quot;DggJY&quot;&gt;[[#morgan2012|Morgan, 2012]]&amp;nbsp;[1956], p. 97&lt;/ref&gt; The number of abolitionist movements greatly increased, and by 1804 all the northern states had outlawed it.&lt;ref name=&quot;wneY7&quot;&gt;[[#wood1992|Wood, 1992]], pp. 3–8, 186–187&lt;/ref&gt; However, slavery continued to be a serious social and political issue and caused divisions that would ultimately end in [[American Civil War|civil war]]. ===Historiography=== The body of historical writings on the American Revolution cite many motivations for the Patriot revolt.&lt;ref name=&quot;g6SJo&quot;&gt;Paul David Nelson, &quot;British Conduct of the American Revolutionary War: A Review of Interpretations.&quot; ''Journal of American History'' 65.3 (1978): 623–653. {{JSTOR|1901416}}&lt;/ref&gt; American Patriots stressed the denial of their constitutional [[rights of Englishmen|rights as Englishmen]], especially &quot;[[no taxation without representation]].&quot; Contemporaries credit the [[American Enlightenment]] with laying the intellectual, moral, and ethical foundations for the American Revolution among the [[Founding Fathers of the United States|Founding Fathers]], who were influenced by the [[classical liberalism]] of [[John Locke]] and other Enlightenment writers and philosophers. ''[[Two Treatises of Government]]'' has long been cited as a major influence on Revolutionary-era American thinking, but historians David Lundberg and [[Henry F. May]] contend that Locke's ''[[Essay Concerning Human Understanding]]'' was far more widely read.&lt;ref&gt;See David Lundberg and Henry F. May, &quot;The Enlightened Reader in America&quot;, ''American Quarterly'', vol. 28, no. 2 (1976): 267.&lt;/ref&gt; Historians since the 1960s have emphasized that the Patriot constitutional argument was made possible by the emergence of an American nationalism that united the Thirteen Colonies. In turn, that nationalism was rooted in a [[Republicanism in the United States|Republican value system]] that demanded consent of the governed and deeply opposed [[aristocracy|aristocratic]] control.&lt;ref name=&quot;fcrPt&quot;&gt;{{cite journal | last1 = Tyrrell | first1 = Ian | year = 1999 | title = Making Nations/Making States: American Historians in the Context of Empire | journal = Journal of American History | volume = 86 | issue = 3| pages = 1015–1044 | jstor=2568604| doi = 10.2307/2568604| issn = 0021-8723}}&lt;/ref&gt; In Britain, on the other hand, republicanism was largely a fringe ideology since it challenged the aristocratic control of the [[Monarchy of the United Kingdom|British monarchy]] and political system. Political power was not controlled by an aristocracy or nobility in the 13 colonies; instead, the colonial political system was based on the winners of free elections, which were open at the time to the majority of white men. In analysis of the Revolution, historians in recent decades have often cited three motivations behind it:&lt;ref name=&quot;ZBA7A&quot;&gt;Robin Winks, ed. ''Historiography'' (1999) 5:95&lt;/ref&gt; * The [[Atlantic history]] view places the American story in a broader context, including subsequent revolutions in France and Haiti. It tends to reintegrate the historiographies of the American Revolution and the British Empire.&lt;ref name=&quot;ZJ2KF&quot;&gt;{{cite journal | last1 = Cogliano | first1 = Francis D. | year = 2010 | title = Revisiting the American Revolution | journal = History Compass | volume = 8 | issue = 8| pages = 951–963 | doi=10.1111/j.1478-0542.2010.00705.x}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;WWA5Z&quot;&gt;Eliga H. Gould, Peter S. Onuf, eds. ''Empire and Nation: The American Revolution in the Atlantic World'' (2005)&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;UTDV9&quot;&gt;{{cite journal | last1 = Gould | first1 = Eliga H. | year = 1999 | title = A virtual nation: Greater Britain and the imperial legacy of the American Revolution | journal = American Historical Review | volume = 104 | issue = 2| pages = 476–489 | doi=10.2307/2650376| jstor = 2650376}}&lt;/ref&gt; * The &quot;[[new social history]]&quot; approach looks at community social structure to find cleavages that were magnified into colonial cleavages. * The ideological approach that centers on republicanism in the United States.&lt;ref name=&quot;Uo7j4&quot;&gt;{{cite book|author1=David Kennedy|author2=Lizabeth Cohen|title=American Pageant|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=MJ6aBAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA156|year=2015|publisher=Cengage Learning|page=156|isbn=978-1305537422}}&lt;/ref&gt; Republicanism dictated there would be no royalty, aristocracy or national church but allowed for continuation of the British common law, which American lawyers and jurists understood and approved and used in their everyday practice. Historians have examined how the rising American legal profession adopted British common law to incorporate republicanism by selective revision of legal customs and by introducing more choices for courts.&lt;ref name=&quot;dd44y&quot;&gt;Ellen Holmes Pearson. &quot;Revising Custom, Embracing Choice: Early American Legal Scholars and the Republicanization of the Common Law&quot;, in Gould and Onuf, eds. ''Empire and Nation: The American Revolution in the Atlantic World'' (2005) pp. 93–113&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;5N3hK&quot;&gt;[[Anton-Hermann Chroust]], ''Rise of the Legal Profession in America'' (1965) vol. 2.&lt;/ref&gt; ===Revolutionary War commemoration stamps=== After the first [[Postage stamps and postal history of the United States|U.S. postage stamp]] was issued in 1849, the [[United States Postal Service|U.S. Postal Service]] frequently issued commemorative stamps celebrating people and events of the Revolutionary War. The first such stamp was the [[Liberty Bell]] issue of 1926.&lt;ref name=&quot;ULvJk&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Houseman |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=lhB5tAEACAAJ |title=Scott Specialized Catalogue of United States Stamps and Covers |last2=Kloetzel |publisher=Amos Media Company |year=2019 |isbn=978-0894875595 |quote=Stamps listed in chronological order}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;gallery caption=&quot;Selected issues:&quot; mode=&quot;packed&quot; heights=&quot;120px&quot;&gt; File:150th Anniversary of the Liberty Bell, 1926 Issue-2c.jpg|upright=1|The [[Liberty Bell]] stamp, issued on the 150th anniversary of American independence in 1926 File:Saratoga 1777 Oriskany 1927 Issue-2c.jpg|upright=1|150th anniversary of the [[Battles of Saratoga]] stamp featuring [[John Burgoyne|Burgoyne]]'s surrender, issued in 1927 File:Washington at Prayer Valley Forge 1928 Issue-2c.jpg|upright=1|[[George Washington|Washington]] at prayer at [[Valley Forge]] stamp, issued in 1928 File:Yorktown 1931 Issue-2c.jpg|upright=1|150th anniversary of the [[siege of Yorktown]] stamp featuring [[Jean-Baptiste Donatien de Vimeur, comte de Rochambeau|Rochambeau]], [[George Washington|Washington]], and [[François Joseph Paul de Grasse|de Grasse]], issued in 1931 &lt;/gallery&gt; ==See also== {{Div col}} * [[1776 in the United States]]: events, births, deaths, and other years * [[Timeline of the American Revolution]] ===Topics of the Revolution=== * [[Committee of safety (American Revolution)]] * [[Diplomacy in the American Revolutionary War]] * [[Financial costs of the American Revolutionary War]] * [[Flags of the American Revolution]] * [[Naval operations in the American Revolutionary War]] ===Social history of the Revolution=== * [[Black Patriot]] * [[Christianity in the United States#American Revolution]] * [[The Colored Patriots of the American Revolution]] * [[History of Poles in the United States#American Revolution]] * [[List of clergy in the American Revolution]] * [[List of Patriots (American Revolution)]] * [[Quakers in the American Revolution]] * [[Scotch-Irish Americans#American Revolution]] ===Others in the American Revolution=== * [[Nova Scotia in the American Revolution]] * [[Watauga Association]] ===Lists of Revolutionary military=== * [[List of American Revolutionary War battles]] * [[List of British Forces in the American Revolutionary War]] * [[List of Continental Forces in the American Revolutionary War]] * [[List of infantry weapons in the American Revolution]] * [[List of United States militia units in the American Revolutionary War]] ===Legacy and related=== * [[American Revolution Statuary]] * [[Commemoration of the American Revolution]] * [[Founders Online]] * [[Independence Day (United States)]] * [[The Last Men of the Revolution]] * [[List of plays and films about the American Revolution]] * [[Museum of the American Revolution]] * [[Tomb of the Unknown Soldier of the American Revolution]] * [[List of wars of independence]] * [[Bibliography of the American Revolutionary War]] {{Div col end}} ==Notes== {{Notelist}} {{reflist|group=N}} ==Citations== :''Year dates enclosed in [brackets] denote year of original printing'' {{reflist|1=20em}} ==Bibliography== {{Main|Bibliography of the American Revolutionary War}} &lt;!-- Deny Citation Bot--&gt; &lt;!--works cited in the notes--&gt; {{Refbegin|30em}} &lt;!-- A --&gt; * {{Cite web |last=Abrams |first=Creighton W. |title=The Yorktown Campaign, October 1781 |url=https://armyhistory.org/the-yorktown-campaign-october-1781/ |access-date=May 20, 2020 |website=National Museum, United States Army, Army Historical Foundation |date=July 16, 2014 |ref=abrams }} * {{Cite book |last=Adams |first=Charles Francis |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=CgALAAAAIAAJ |title=Proceedings of the Massachusetts Historical Society: Campaign of 1777 |publisher=Massachusetts Historical Society |year=1911 |volume=44 |ref=adams1911 }} * {{Cite book |last=Adams |first=Charles Francis |url=https://archive.org/details/americanhistoric18951896jame/page/n7/mode/2up/search/mcclary |title=The American historical review |publisher=Kraus Reprints |location=New York |year=1963 |editor-last=Jameson, J. Franklin |ref=adams63 |author-mask=2 |orig-year=1895–1896 }} * {{Cite book |last=Alden |first=John R. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gV0xAAAAQBAJ |title=A History of the American Revolution |publisher=Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group |year=1969 |isbn=978-0306803666 |ref=alden1969 |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last=Alden |first=John R. |title=American Revolution, Seventeen Seventy Five to Seventeen Eighty-Three |publisher=Harper Collins |year=1976 |isbn=978-0061330117 |ref=alden1976}} * {{Cite book |last=Alexander |first=Leslie |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uivtCqOlpTsC&amp;pg=PA356 |title=Encyclopedia of African American History |publisher=ABC-CLIO |year=2010 |isbn=978-1851097746 |page=356 |ref=alexander2010 |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=IlpnDwAAQBAJ |title=The American Revolution: A World War |date=2018 |publisher=Smithsonian Institution |isbn=978-1588346599 |editor-last=Allison |editor-first=David K |ref=Allison&amp;Ferreiro2018 |editor2-last=Ferreiro |editor2-first=Larrie D. }} * {{Cite book |last=Ammerman |first=David |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=1Eh2AAAAMAAJ |title=In the Common Cause: American Response to the Coercive Acts of 1774 |publisher=Norton |year=1974 |isbn=978-0813905259 |location=New York |ref=ammerman }} * {{Cite journal |last=Armour |first=Alexander W. |date=October 1941 |title=Revolutionary War Discharges |journal=William and Mary Quarterly |publisher=Omohundro Institute of Early American History and Culture |volume=21 |issue=4 |pages=344–360 |doi=10.2307/1920145 |jstor=1920145 |ref=armour1941}} * {{Cite book |last=Archuleta |first=Roy A. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=UPE8yotFAT4C |title=Where We Come from |year=2006 |isbn=978-1424304721 |page=69 |publisher=Where We Come From, collect. |ref=roy2006 }} * {{Cite book |last=Atwood |first=Rodney |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=GejQdlQrD-kC |title=The Hessians: Mercenaries from Hessen-Kassel in the American Revolution |publisher=Cambridge University Press |year=2002 |isbn=978-0521526371 |ref=atwood2002 }} * {{Cite book |last=Axelrod |first=Alan |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=iBvtuSWgt_QC |title=The Real History of the American Revolution: A New Look at the Past |publisher=Sterling Publishing Company, Inc. |year=2009 |isbn=978-1402768163 |ref=axelrod2009 }} * {{Cite book |last=Axelrod |first=Alan |title=Mercenaries: A guide to Private Armies and Private Military Companies |publisher=SAGE Publications |year=2014 |isbn=978-1608712489 |author-mask=2 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=EWQXBAAAQBAJ |ref=axelrod2014 }} &lt;!-- B --&gt; * {{Cite book |last=Babits |first=Lawrence E. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=bUpBDwAAQBAJ&amp;q=Tarleton |title=A Devil of a Whipping: The Battle of Cowpens |publisher=University of North Carolina Press |year=2011 |isbn=978-0807887660 |ref=babits }} * {{Cite book |last=Bailyn |first=Bernard |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=pct726HjrHIC |title=To Begin the World Anew: The Genius and Ambiguities of the American Founders |publisher=Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group |year=2007 |isbn=978-0307429780 |ref=bailyn2007 }} * {{Cite journal |last=Baer |first=Friederike |date=Winter 2015 |title=The Decision to Hire German Troops in the War of American Independence: Reactions in Britain and North America, 1774–1776 |journal=Early American Studies |publisher=University of Pennsylvania Press |volume=13 |issue=1 |pages=111–150 |doi=10.1353/eam.2015.0003 |jstor=24474906 |ref=baer2015 |s2cid=143134975}} * {{Cite book |last=Baker |first=Mark Allen |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=9gB3CQAAQBAJ |title=Spies of Revolutionary Connecticut: From Benedict Arnold to Nathan Hale |date=2014 |publisher=The History Press |isbn=978-1626194076 |location=Charleston, South Carolina |ref=baker2014 }} * {{Cite journal |last=Bass |first=Robert D. |date=October 1957 |title=The Green Dragoon: The Lives of Banastre Tarleton and Mary Robinson |journal=The North Carolina Historical Review |publisher=North Carolina Office of Archives and History |volume=34 |issue=4 |pages=548–550 |jstor=23517100 |ref=bass}} * {{cite journal |last=Beerman |first=Eric |title=&quot;Yo Solo&quot; Not &quot;Solo&quot;: Juan Antoniao Riano |url=https://palmm.digital.flvc.org/islandora/object/ucf%3A25449/datastream/OBJ/view |journal=The Florida Historical Quarterly |date=October 1979 |publisher=Florida Historical Society |issn=0015-4113 |access-date=June 1, 2021 |ref=beerman1979 }} * {{Cite book |last=Belcher |first=Henry |url=https://archive.org/details/firstamericanciv01belcuoft/page/n6/mode/2up |title=The first American Civil War, first period 1775–1778 |publisher=London, MacMillan |year=1911 |volume=1 |ref=belcher1 }} * {{Cite book |last=Bell |first=William Gardner |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Xwyykzbi4pUC&amp;pg=PA3 |title=Commanding Generals and Chiefs of Staff, 1775–2005: Portraits &amp; Biographical Sketches of the United States Army's Senior Officer |year=2005 |publisher=Government Printing Office |isbn=978-0160873300 |ref=bell2005 }} * {{Cite thesis |last=Bellot |first=LJ |title=Canada v Guadeloupe in Britain's old colonial empire: the Peace of Paris of 1763 |date=1960 |publisher=Rice Institute |url=https://scholarship.rice.edu/bitstream/handle/1911/89064/RICE0099.pdf?sequence=1 |type=PhD |ref=bellot }} * {{Cite book |last1=Bemis |first1=Samuel Flagg |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ENgUAAAAIAAJ |title=The American Secretaries of State and Their Diplomacy |last2=Ferrell |first2=Robert H. |publisher=Pageant Book Company |year=1958 |ref=bemis1958 }} * {{Cite book |last=Benn |first=Carl |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=bf66Rh7QuMcC |title=Historic Fort York, 1793–1993 |publisher=Toronto: Dundurn Press Ltd. 1 |year=1993 |isbn=0920474799 |ref=benn1993 }} * {{Cite book |last=Berkin |first=Carol |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gCES-ZwlN3MC |title=Revolutionary Mothers. Women in the Struggle for America's Independence |publisher=Alfred A. Knopf |year=2005 |isbn=1400041635 |location=New York |ref=berkin2005 }} * {{Cite journal |last=Bibko |first=Julia |year=2016 |title=The American Revolution and the Black Loyalist Exodus |url=http://digitalcommons.brockport.edu/hashtaghistory/vol1/iss1/5 |journal=History: A Journal of Student Research |volume=1 |issue=1 |ref=bibko2016 |access-date=November 11, 2020 |archive-date=April 12, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210412064945/https://digitalcommons.brockport.edu/hashtaghistory/vol1/iss1/5/ |url-status=dead }} * {{Cite book |last=Bicheno |first=Hugh |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=xw2hAgAAQBAJ |title=Rebels and Redcoats: The American Revolutionary War |publisher=HarperCollins |year=2014 |isbn=978-0007390915 |ref=bicheno14 }} * {{Cite book |last=Billias |first=George Athan |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=0euvXS-AwD4C |title=George Washington's Opponents: British Generals and Admirals in the American Revolution |publisher=University of California |year=1969 |ref=billias1969 }} * {{Cite book |last=Black |first=Jeremy |title=Parameters of British Naval Power, 1650–1850 |publisher=University of Exeter Press |year=1992 |isbn=978-0859893855 |editor-last=Michael Duffy |location=Exeter, UK |pages=95–120; here: 105 |chapter=Naval Power, Strategy and Foreign Policy, 1775–1791 |ref=black1992 |chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ysC9rOCxGhgC }} * {{Cite book |last=Black |first=Jeremy |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=owQaAQAAIAAJ |title=War for America: The Fight for Independence, 1775–1783 |publisher=Sutton Publishing |year=2001 |isbn=978-0750928083 |ref=black2001 |author-mask=2 |author-link=Jeremy Black (historian) |orig-year=1991 }} * {{Cite book |last=Black |first=Jeremy |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=EIst_CSWOqIC |title=Fighting for America: The Struggle for Mastery in North America, 1519–1871 |date=2011 |publisher=Indiana University Press |isbn=978-0253005618 |ref=Black2011 |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last=Boatner |first=Mark M. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=hQN2AAAAMAAJ |title=Encyclopedia of the American Revolution' |publisher=D. McKay Company |year=1974 |isbn=978-0679504405 |ref=boatner74 |orig-year=1966 }} * {{Cite book |last=Borick |first=Carl P. |title=A Gallant Defense: the Siege of Charleston, 1780 |publisher=University of South Carolina Press |year=2003 |isbn=978-1570034879 |oclc=5051139 |ref=borick2003}} * Britannica.com {{cite web |title= François Joseph Paul, count de Grasse |date= 2021 |url= https://www.britannica.com/biography/Francois-Joseph-Paul-comte-de-Grasse-marquis-de-Grasse-Tilly |publisher= Britannica.com |page= Wikisourse |ref= degrasseEB2021 }} * {{Cite book |last=Brown |first=Weldon A |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=BoYlAQAAMAAJ |title=Empire Or Independence A Study in the Failure Of Reconciliation 1774–1783 |publisher=Kennikat Press |year=1941 |ref=brown41 }} * {{Cite book |last=Buchanan |first=John |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zHh2AAAAMAAJ |title=The Road to Guilford Courthouse: The American Revolution in the Carolinas |publisher=John Wiley &amp; Sons |year=1997 |isbn=978-0471164029 |ref=buchanan97 }} * {{Cite book |last=Burgoyne |first=John |url=https://archive.org/details/orderlybookoflie00burg |title=Orderly book of Lieut. Gen. John Burgoyne, from his entry into the state of New York until his surrender at Saratoga, 16th Oct. 1777 |publisher=Albany, N.Y., J. Munsell |year=1860 |editor-last=O'Callaghan, E. B. |ref=burgoyne1860 |author-mask=2 |author-link=John Burgoyne }} * {{Cite book |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=c5tNAAAAcAAJ |title=Annual Register: World Events, 1783 |publisher=Jay Dodsley |year=1785 |editor-last=Burke, Edmond |location=London |ref=Burke1785 }} * {{Cite journal |last=Burrows |first=Edwin G. |author-link=Edwin G. Burrows |date=Fall 2008 |title=Patriots or Terrorists |url=http://www.americanheritage.com/content/patriots-or-terrorists |url-status=live |journal=American Heritage |series=58 |issue=5 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130323233806/http://www.americanheritage.com/content/patriots-or-terrorists |archive-date=March 23, 2013 |access-date=November 29, 2014 |ref=burrows2008a }} * {{Cite book |last=Burrows |first=Edwin |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=vpUs4J8XEXoC |title=Forgotten Patriots: The Untold Story of American Prisoners During the Revolutionary War |publisher=Basic Books |location=New York |year=2008 |isbn=978-0786727049 |ref=burrows2008b |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last=Butterfield |first=Consul W. |url=https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/007936660 |title=History of George Rogers Clark's Conquest of the Illinois and the Wabash Towns 1778–1779 |publisher=Heer |year=1903 |location=Columbus, Ohio |quote=online at Hathi Trust |ref=butterfield }} &lt;!-- C --&gt; * {{Cite book |last=Cadwalader |first=Richard McCall |url=https://archive.org/details/pennsylvaniasoc00socigoog |title=Observance of the One Hundred and Twenty-third Anniversary of the Evacuation of Philadelphia by the British Army: Fort Washington and the Encampment of White Marsh, November 2, 1777 |publisher=Press of the New Era Printing Company |year=1901 |pages=[https://archive.org/details/pennsylvaniasoc00socigoog/page/n26 20]–28 |ref=cadwalader1901 |access-date=January 7, 2016 }} * {{Cite book |last=Calhoon |first=Robert McCluer |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Zy53AAAAMAAJ |title=The Loyalists in Revolutionary America, 1760–1781 |date=1973 |publisher=Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc. |isbn=978-0801490088 |quote=The Founding of the American Republic Series |ref=Calhoon1973 }} * {{Cite book |last=Calloway |first=Colin G. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=XtxG369-VHQC&amp;q=mercenaries |title=The Scratch of a Pen: 1763 and the Transformation of North America |publisher=Oxford University Press |year=2007 |isbn=978-0195331271 |ref=calloway2007 }} * {{Cite book |last1=Cannon |first1=John |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=9vL8CgAAQBAJ |title=The Oxford Companion to British History |last2=Crowcroft |first2=Robert |publisher=Oxford University Press |year=2015 |isbn=978-0199677832 |edition=2nd |ref=cannon2015 }} * {{Cite book |last=Carp |first=E. Wayne |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=DL66YCXMbZ8C |title=To Starve the Army at Pleasure: Continental Army Administration and American Political Culture, 1775–1783 |publisher=UNC Press Books |year=1990 |isbn=978-0807842690 |ref=carp1990 }} * {{Cite book |last=Carroll |first=Francis M. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ZiEkygEACAAJ |title=A Good and Wise Measure: The Search for the Canadian-American Boundary, 1783–1842 |publisher=U of Toronto Press |year=2001 |isbn=978-0802083586 |ref=carroll2001 }} * {{Cite web |last=Cashin |first=Edward J. |date=26 March 2005 |title=Revolutionary War in Georgia |url=https://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/revolutionary-war-georgia |access-date=21 September 2020 |website=New Georgia Encyclopedia |quote=Revolution &amp; Early Republic, 1775–1800 |ref=cashin }} * {{Cite book |last=Cave |first=Alfred A. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=iiZoWyv77qQC&amp;pg=PP1 |title=The French and Indian War |publisher=Greenwood Press |year=2004 |isbn=978-0313321689 |location=Westport, Connecticut; London |ref=cave2004 }} * {{Cite book |editor-last=Chambers |editor-first=John Whiteclay II |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=O69xjgEACAAJ |title=The Oxford Companion to American Military History |publisher=[[Oxford University Press]] |year=1999 |isbn=978-0195071986 |ref=chambers1999 }} * {{Cite journal |last=Chandler |first=Jonathan |year=2017 |title=To become again our brethren': Desertion and community during the American Revolutionary War, 1775–83 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=PEvdvQEACAAJ |journal=Historical Research |publisher=Oxford University Press |volume=90 |issue=March 2017 |pages=363–380 |doi=10.1111/1468-2281.12183 |access-date=March 20, 2020 |ref=chandler |doi-access=free }} * {{Cite book |last=Chávez |first=Thomas E. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=z96CAwAAQBAJ&amp;q=ireland |title=Spain and the Independence of the United States: An Intrinsic Gift |publisher=UNM Press |year=2002 |isbn=978-0826327956 |ref=chavez }} * {{Cite book |last=Chartrand |first=René |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=JUQ8vgAACAAJ |title=Gibraltar 1779–1783: The Great Siege |publisher=Bloomsbury US |year=2006 |isbn=978-1841769776 |ref=chartrand63 }} * {{Cite book |last=Chernow |first=Ron |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=r3-rsrDiE5cC |title=Washington: A Life |publisher=Penguin Press |year=2010 |isbn=978-1594202667 |ref=chernow2010 }} * {{Cite book |last=Clayton |first=Anthony |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=HlDJAwAAQBAJ |title=The British Officer: Leading the Army from 1660 to the present |publisher=Routledge |year=2014 |isbn=978-1317864448 |ref=clayton2014 }} * {{Cite book |last=Clode |first=Charles M. |url=https://archive.org/details/militaryforcesc02clodgoog/page/n4/mode/2up |title=The military forces of the crown; their administration and government |publisher=London, J. Murray |year=1869 |volume=1 |ref=clode1869a }} * {{Cite book |last=Clodfelter |first=Micheal |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=kNzCDgAAQBAJ |title=Warfare and Armed Conflicts: A Statistical Encyclopedia of Casualty and Other Figures, 1492–2015 |publisher=McFarland |year=2017 |isbn=978-1476625850 |edition=4th |ref=clodfelter2017 }} * {{Cite book |last=Conway |first=Stephen |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ghkm8IxFCQIC |title=The British Isles and the War of American Independence |date=2002 |publisher=OUP Oxford |isbn=978-0199254552 |ref=conway }} * {{Cite book |last=Cogliano |first=Francis D. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=QMAKWDQt1LAC |title=Revolutionary America, 1763–1815: A Political History |publisher=Francis and Taylor |year=2003 |isbn=978-1134678693 |ref=cogliano2003 }} * {{Cite book |last=Corwin |first=Edward Samuel |url=https://archive.org/details/frenchpolicyamer00corwuoft |title=French policy and the American Alliance of 1778 |date=1916 |publisher=Princeton University Press |quote=online at Internet Archive |ref=corwin }} * {{Cite book |last=Crocker |first=H.W. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=bQNwDwAAQBAJ |title=Don't Tread On Me: A 400-year History of American at War, from Indian Fighting to Terrorist Hunting |publisher=Three Rivers Press |year=2006 |isbn=978-1400053643 |page=51 |ref=crocker }} * {{Cite book |last=Curtis |first=Edward E. |url=https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.89355/page/n165/mode/2up?q=The+failure+of+British+arms |title=The Organization of the British Army in the American Revolution, Conclusion |publisher=Yale University Press |year=1926 |ref=curtis1926 }} &lt;!-- D --&gt; * {{Cite book |last=Dale |first=Anderson |url=https://archive.org/details/battleofyorktown0000ande |title=The Battle of Yorktown |publisher=HarperCollins |year=2005 |isbn=978-0836853933 |location=New York |ref=dale2005 }} * {{Cite book |last=Daughan |first=George |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=pFmJ9HTq7QIC |title=If By Sea: The Forging of the American Navy – from the Revolution to the War of 1812 |publisher=Basic Books |year=2011 |isbn=978-0465025145 |oclc=701015376 |ref=daughan2011 |orig-year=2008 }} * {{Cite book |last1=Davenport |first1=Frances G |url=https://archive.org/details/europeantreaties04daveuoft/page/144/mode/2up |title=European Treaties Bearing on the History of the United States and Its Dependencies |last2=Paullin |first2=Charles O. |year=1917 |volume=IV |publisher=Washington, D.C. Carnegie Institution of Washington |ref=davenport1917 }} * {{Cite book |url=https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000774193 |title=Documents of the American Revolution, 1779–1783 |series=Vol. 16 has title:Documents of the American Revolution, 1779–1780 |date=1972–1981 |publisher=Irish University Press |editor-last=Davies, K.G. |volume=12, 15, 17, 18 |location=Shannon |isbn=978-0716520856 |oclc=836225 |quote=Colonial Office Series: Great Britain, America and Canada |ref=daviesk1972 }} * {{Cite book |last1=Davis |first1=Lance E |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=AyeqDTmM7BIC |title=Naval Blockades in Peace and War: An Economic History since 1750 |last2=Engerman |first2=Stanley L |date=2006 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |isbn=978-1139458481 |ref=davisengerman2006 }} * {{Cite book |last=Davis |first=Burke |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=pT92AAAAMAAJ |title=George Washington and the American Revolution |publisher=Random House |year=1975 |isbn=978-0394463889 |ref=davis75 }} * Dictionary of American Biography {{Cite web |title=Jean Baptiste Donatien De Vimeur Rochambeau |date=1936 |url=https://link.gale.com/apps/doc/BT2310004552/GPS?u=wikipedia&amp;sid=GPS&amp;xid=744d6016 |access-date=June 1, 2021 |publisher=Charles Scribner's Sons |series=Gale in Context |ref=rochDAB }} * {{Cite news |last=Deane |first=Mark |date=May 14, 2018 |title=That time when Spanish New Orleans helped America win independence |work=WGNO-ABC-TV |url=https://wgno.com/news-with-a-twist/nola-300-that-time-when-spanish-new-orleans-helped-america-win-independence/ |access-date=6 October 2020 |quote=Exhibit at the Cabildo Museum, 'Recovered Memories: Spain, New Orleans, and the Support for the American Revolution' |ref=Deane2018 }}{{Dead link|date=September 2024 |bot=InternetArchiveBot |fix-attempted=yes }} * {{Cite book |url=https://archive.org/details/parliamentaryre11parlgoog/page/n2/mode/2up |title=Parliamentary Register, House of Commons, Fifteenth Parliament of Great Britain |year=1781 |editor-last=Debrett, J. |volume=1 |publisher=Printed for J. Almon |ref=Debrett1781 }} * {{Cite book |url=https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$b750334&amp;view=1up&amp;seq=5 |title=The correspondence of King George the Third with Lord North from 1768 to 1783 |year=1867 |editor-last=Donne, W. Bodham |volume=2 |publisher=J. Murray |quote=online at Hathi Trust |ref=donne }} * {{Cite book |last=Duffy |first=Christopher |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zZiRAgAAQBAJ |title=The Military Experience in the Age of Reason, 1715–1789 |publisher=Routledge |year=2005 |isbn=978-1135794583 |ref=duffy1987 |orig-year=1987 }} * {{Cite book |last=Dull |first=Jonathan R |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=2WF9BgAAQBAJ |title=The French Navy and American Independence: A Study of Arms and Diplomacy, 1774–1787 |publisher=Princeton University Press |year=2015 |isbn=978-0691069203 |location=Princeton, NJ |oclc=1500030 |ref=dull1975 |orig-year=1975 }} * {{Cite book |last=Dull |first=Jonathan R. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=W86WS9Z0ycYC |title=A Diplomatic History of the American Revolution |publisher=Yale University Press |year=1987 |isbn=978-0300038866 |ref=dull1987 |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last=Duncan |first=Louis Caspar |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Tj0JAAAAIAAJ |title=Medical Men in the American Revolution, 1775–1783 |publisher=Medical field service school |year=1931 |ref=duncan1931 }} * {{Cite web |last=Dunkerly |first=Robert M. |date=April 2, 2014 |title=8 Fast Facts about Camp Followers |url=https://allthingsliberty.com/2014/04/8-fast-facts-about-camp-followers/ |access-date=August 23, 2019 |publisher=Journal of the American Revolution |ref=dunkerly }} &lt;!-- E --&gt; * {{cite book|author=Eelking, Max von|title=The German Allied Troops in the North American War of Independence, 1776–1783|url=https://archive.org/details/germanalliedtroo00eelk/page/n11/mode/2up|others=Translated from German by [[Joseph George Rosengarten|J. G. Rosengarten]]|year=1893|publisher=Joel Munsell's Sons, Albany, NY.|lccn=72081186|ref=eelking1893}} * {{Cite thesis |last=Eclov |first=Jon Paul |title=Informal Alliance: Royal Navy And U.S. Navy Co-Operation Against Republican France During The Quasi-War And Wars Of The French Revolution |date=2013 |publisher=University of North Dakota |url=https://commons.und.edu/theses/1417 |type=PhD |ref=eclov2013 }} * {{Cite book |last=Edler |first=Friedrich |url=https://archive.org/details/dutchrepublic00edlerich/page/n8/mode/2up |title=The Dutch Republic and The American Revolution |publisher=University Press of the Pacific |year=2001 |isbn=0898752698 |ref=edler |orig-year=1911 }} * {{Cite book |last=Ellis |first=Joseph J. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=2Y9Rko9sT3kC |title=His Excellency: George Washington |year=2004 |publisher=Knopf Doubleday Publishing |isbn=978-1400032532 |ref=ellis2004 |author-link=Joseph Ellis }} * {{Cite book |last=Ellis |first=Joseph J. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=z4RqZJzho1QC |title=Revolutionary Summer: The Birth of American Independence |publisher=Random House |year=2013 |isbn=978-0307701220 |ref=ellis2013 |author-mask=2 }} * Encyclopædia Britannica {{cite EB1911|wstitle= Estaing, Charles Hector, Comte d' |volume= 09 | page = 789 |short=x |ref=estaingEB1911}} * {{Cite book |last=Everest |first=Allan Seymour |title= Moses Hazen and the Canadian Refugees in the American Revolution| publisher=Syracuse University Press |year=1977|isbn=978-0815601296 |ref=everest1977}} &lt;!-- F --&gt; * {{Cite book |last=Faust |first=Albert Bernhardt |url=https://archive.org/details/germanelementinu00faus |title=The German element in the United States |publisher=Boston : Houghton Mifflin Co. |year=1909 |ref=faust1909 |author-link=Albert Bernhardt Faust }} * {{Cite book |last=Ferling |first=John |url=https://archive.org/details/leapindark00ferl |title=A Leap in the Dark: The Struggle to Create the American Republic |publisher=Oxford University Press |year=2003 |isbn=978-0199728701 |ref=ferling2003 }} * {{Cite book |last=Ferling |first=John E. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=lyjjEsqlqo0C |title=Almost a Miracle |publisher=Oxford University Press |year=2007 |isbn=978-0199758470 |ref=ferling2007 |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last=Ferling |first=John |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=P0fCBwAAQBAJ |title=Whirlwind: The American Revolution and the War That Won It |publisher=Bloomsbury Publishing, US |year=2015 |isbn=978-1620401736 |ref=ferling2015 |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last=Fernández y Fernández |first=Enrique |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ND93AAAAMAAJ |title=Spain's Contribution to the independence of the United States: An Intrinsic Gift |date=2004 |publisher=University of New Mexico Press |isbn=978-0826327949 |ref=fernández1885 |orig-year=1885 }} * {{cite book |last=Field |first=Edward |title=Esek Hopkins, Commander-in-Chief of the Continental Navy During the American Revolution, 1775 to 1778: Master Mariner, politician, Brigadier General, Naval Officer, and Philanthropist |publisher=Preston &amp; Rounds Company |year=1898 |url=https://archive.org/details/esekhopkinsco00fiel/page/n7/mode/2up |ref=field }} * {{cite book |last=Finger |first=John |title-link=Tennessee Frontiers: Three Regions in Transition |title=Tennessee Frontiers: Three Regions in Transition |publisher=Indiana University Press |year=2001 |isbn=978-0253108722 |ref=finger2001}} * {{cite book |last=Fischer |first=David Hackett |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Oreq1YztDcQC |title=Washington's Crossing |publisher=Oxford University Press |year=2004 |isbn=978-0195170344 |ref=fischer2004 |author-link=David Hackett Fischer }} * {{cite book |last=Fischer |first=Joseph R. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=_7ikGwAACAAJ |title=A Well-Executed Failure: The Sullivan Campaign against the Iroquois |publisher=University of South Carolina Press |year=2008 |isbn=978-1570038372 |ref=fischer2008 }} * {{cite book |last=Fiske |first=John |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=XCcQAAAAYAAJ |title=''The American Revolution: In Two Volumes'' |date=1891 |publisher=The Riverside Press |volume=1 |location=Cambridge, MA |ref=fiske1891 |author-link=John Fiske (philosopher) }} * {{cite book |last=Fiske |first=John |title=Harpers' Encyclopaedia of United States History |volume=9 |date=1902 |publisher=Harper &amp; brothers |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=0sJAAQAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA516 |ref=fiske1902 |author-mask=2 }} * {{cite book |last=Fleming |first=Thomas |title=New Jersey in the American Revolution |publisher=Rivergate Books, Rutgers University Press |year=2005 |isbn=0813536022 |editor-last=Barbara J. Mitnick |ref=fleming |orig-year=1973}} * {{cite book |last=Fleming |first=Thomas |title=Washington's Secret War |publisher=HarperCollins |year=2006 |isbn=978-0060829629 |ref=fleming2006 |author-mask=2}} * {{cite book |last=Fortescue |first=John |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=1GlKAAAAYAAJ&amp;q=Bednore%201783&amp;pg=PA489 |title=A history of the British army |year=1902 |volume=3 |ref=fortescue }} * {{cite book |last1=Freeman |first1=Douglas Southall |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=7hWBcg2iLooC |title=Washington |last2=Harwell |first2=Richard Barksdale |publisher=Simon and Schuster |year=2011 |isbn=978-1439105337 |quote=An abridgement in one volume by Richard Harwell of the seven-volume biography of George Washington |ref=harwell2011 }} * {{cite book |last=French |first=Allen |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ZYwGAQAAIAAJ |title=General Gage's Informers |publisher=University of Michigan Press |year=1932 |ref=french1932 }} * {{cite book |last=Frothingham |first=Richard |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Cu9BAAAAIAAJ |title=History of the Siege of Boston, and of the Battles of Lexington, Concord, and Bunker Hill: also an Account of the Bunker Hill Monument |publisher=Little, Brown, &amp; Company |year=1903 |via=Google Books ebook |ref=Frothingham }} &lt;!-- G --&gt; * {{cite book |last=Gabriel |first=Michael P. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Xpx2CQAAQBAJ&amp;q=mercenaries |title=The Battle of Bennington: Soldiers and Civilians |publisher=The History Press |year=2012 |isbn=978-1609495152 |ref=gabriel2012 }} * {{cite book |last=Gaff |first=Alan D. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=QEI11WSV3WcC&amp;q=Augustin |title=Bayonets in the Wilderness. Anthony Waynes Legion in the Old Northwest |publisher=University of Oklahoma Press |year=2004 |isbn=978-0806135854 |location=Norman |ref=gaff }} * {{Cite archive |author1=George III, his Britannic Majesty |author2=Commissioners of the United States of America |item=Preliminary Articles of Peace |date=30 November 1782 |url=https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/prel1782.asp |access-date=6 October 2020 |collection=18th Century; British-American Diplomacy |institution=Yale Law School Avalon Project |ref=geoIII1782 |quote=Nine articles}} * {{Cite book |last=Glattharr |first=Joseph T. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=XedxagDKH7EC |title=Forgotten Allies: The Oneida Indians and the American Revolution |publisher=Hill &amp; Wang |year=2007 |isbn=978-0809046003 |ref=glatthaar }} * {{Cite book |last=Golway |first=Terry |title=Washington's General: Nathanael Greene and the Triumph of the American Revolution |date=2005 |publisher=Henry Holt and Company, LLC |isbn=0805070664 |ref=golway2005}} * {{Cite web |last=Goos |first=Norman |title=A Very Large British Military Investment for Very Little Practical Profit |url=https://www.sar.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Battle-at-Chestnut-Neck-by-Norman-Goos.pdf |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20221009/https://www.sar.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Battle-at-Chestnut-Neck-by-Norman-Goos.pdf |archive-date=2022-10-09 |url-status=live |access-date=5 December 2020 |website=Sons of the American Revolution |ref=goos }} * {{Cite book |last1=Gordon |first1=John W. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=UYqYDMxOcc4C |title=South Carolina and the American Revolution: A Battlefield History |last2=Keegan |first2=John |year=2007 |publisher=Univ of South Carolina Press |isbn=978-1570034800 |ref=gordon }} * {{Cite book |last=Grainger |first=John D. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=mUO8ulaX2PsC |title=The Battle of Yorktown, 1781: A Reassessment |publisher=Boydell Press |year=2005 |isbn=978-1843831372 |ref=grainger2005 }} * {{Cite book |last=Greene |first=Francis Vinton |url=https://archive.org/details/generalgreene00greeuoft/page/n8/mode/2up |title=General Greene |publisher=New York : D. Appleton &amp; Co. |year=1913 |ref=fgreene1913 }} * {{Cite book |last1=Greene |first1=Jack P. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=xK1NuzpAcH8C |title=A Companion to the American Revolution |last2=Pole |first2=J.R. |publisher=Blackwell Publishers |year=2008 |isbn=978-0470756447 |quote=Collection of essays focused on political and social history. |ref=jgreene2008 |orig-year=2000 }} * {{Cite book |last=Grenier |first=John |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=JGCin1JJp8cC&amp;q=bird |title=The First Way of War: American War Making on the Frontier, 1607–1814 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |year=2005 |isbn=978-1139444705 |ref=grenier }} * {{Cite map |last1=Gutman |first1=Alejandro |last2=Avanzati |first2=Beatriz |title=Native North American Languages Distribution |url=http://www.languagesgulper.com/eng/Northmap.html |publisher=A. Gutman &amp; B. Avanzati |date=2013 |access-date=3 September 2020 |ref=gutman }} &lt;!-- H --&gt; * {{cite journal |last=Harrington |first=Hugh T. |date=January 2013 |title=The strange oddessy of George Merchant |url=https://allthingsliberty.com/2013/01/the-strange-odyssey-of-george-merchant-rifleman/ |journal=Journal of the American Revolution |ref=harrington2018 }} * {{cite book |last=Harrison |first=Lowell Hayes |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=hKsQ7yKYkaoC&amp;q=Henry+Hamilton |title=George Rogers Clark and the War in the West |publisher=University Press of Kentucky |year=2001 |isbn=978-0813190143 |ref=harrison2001 }} * {{cite book |last=Harvey |first=Robert |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=YMWSDwAAQBAJ |title=A Few Bloody Noses: The American Revolutionary War |date=2004 |publisher=Robinson |isbn=978-1841199528 |ref=Harvey2004 }} * {{cite book |last=Hazard |first=Samuel |url=https://archive.org/details/B-001-003-105/mode/2up |title=Hazard's Register of Pennsylvania |publisher=W.F. Geddes |year=1829 |volume=4 |ref=hazard54 }} * {{cite book |last=Herring |first=George C. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=fODT-qOVoiIC |title=From Colony to Superpower: U.S. Foreign Relations since 1776 |publisher=Oxford University Press |year=2011 |isbn=978-0199765539 |quote=Oxford History of the United States Book 12 |ref=herring2011 |orig-year=2008 }} * {{cite book |last=Hibbert |first=Christopher |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ShQAtAEACAAJ |title=George III: A Personal History |publisher=Basic Books |year=2000 |isbn=978-0465027248 |ref=hibbert2000 }} * {{cite book |last=Hibbert |first=Christopher |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ZwGSAwAAQBAJ |title=Redcoats and Rebels |publisher=Pen and Sword |year=2008 |isbn=978-1844156993 |ref=hibbert |author-mask=2 }} * {{cite book |last=Higginbotham |first=Don |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=UGYqAAAAYAAJ |title=The War of American Independence: Military Attitudes, Policies, and Practice, 1763–1789 |publisher=Northeastern University Press |year=1983 |isbn=0930350448 |ref=higginbotham1983 |author-link=Don Higginbotham |orig-year=1971 }} * {{Cite book |last=Higginbotham |first=Don |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=NzZD0Wh99HEC |title=George Washington and the American Military Tradition |publisher=University of Georgia Press |year=1987 |isbn=978-0820324005 |ref=higginbotham1987 |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last=Hoffman |first=Ronald |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=hwKoMgAACAAJ |title=Diplomacy and Revolution: The Franco-American Alliance of 1778 |date=1981 |publisher=University of Virginia Press |isbn=978-0813908649 |ref=hoffman }} * {{Cite book |last=Hogeland |first=William |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=j-hQDQAAQBAJ |title=Autumn of the Black Snake |publisher=Farrar, Straus and Giroux |year=2017 |isbn=978-0374107345 |location=New York |ref=hogeland2017 }} * {{cite book |last=Horn |first=Pierre L. |title=Marquis de Lafayette |author-link= |publisher=New York : Chelsea House Publishers |year=1989 |isbn=978-1555468132 |url=https://archive.org/details/marquisdelafayet0000horn |ref=horn1989 }} * {{Cite web |last=Howat |first=Kenna |date=9 November 2017 |title=Revolutionary Spies: Women Spies of the American Revolution |url=https://www.colonialwilliamsburg.org/trend-tradition-magazine/spring-2017/fighting-common-soldier/ |access-date=23 August 2019 |website=National Women's History Museum |ref=howat2017 }} * {{Cite book |last=Hubbard |first=Robert Ernest |title=Major General Israel Putnam: Hero of the American Revolution |publisher=McFarland &amp; Company, Inc. |year=2017 |isbn=978-1476664538 |location=Jefferson, North Carolina |ref=hubbard2017}} * {{Cite journal |last=Hunt |first=Paula D. |date=June 2015 |title=Sybil Ludington, the Female Paul Revere: The Making of a Revolutionary War Heroine |journal=The New England Quarterly |volume=88 |issue=2 |pages=187–222 |doi=10.1162/tneq_a_00452 |issn=0028-4866 |ref=hunt2015 |s2cid=57569643|doi-access=free }} &lt;!-- I --&gt; * {{Cite book |last=Ingrao |first=Charles W. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=PdXBnelX89YC&amp;q=%22mercenary+state%22 |title=The Hessian Mercenary State: Ideas, Institutions, and Reform Under Frederick II, 1760–1785 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |year=2003 |isbn=978-0521533225 |ref=ingrao2003 }} * {{Cite magazine |last=Inman |first=George |date=1903 |title=Losses of the Military and Naval Forces Engaged in the War of the American Revolution |url=https://archive.org/stream/pennsylvaniamaga27hist#page/176/mode/1up |magazine=The Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography |volume=XXVII |issue=1 |pages=176–205 |quote=open access online at Internet Archive |ref=inman }} &lt;!-- J --&gt; * {{Cite book |last1=Jackson |first1=Kenneth T. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=rI_S-HgFdccC |title=Empire City: New York Through the Centuries |last2=Dunbar |first2=David S. |publisher=Columbia University Press |year=2005 |isbn=978-0231109093 |ref=jackson2005 }} * {{Cite book |last=James |first=James Alton |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=yoUUngEACAAJ |title=The Life of George Rogers Clark |publisher=Literary Licensing |year=2013 |isbn=978-1494118921 |ref=james2013 }} * {{Cite book |last=Jasanoff |first=Maya |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uGKsn09oVwQC |title=Liberty's Exiles: American Loyalists in the Revolutionary World |publisher=Vintage Books |year=2012 |isbn=978-1400075478 |ref=jasanoff2012 }} * {{Cite book |last=Jefferson |first=Thomas |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=W_5ZDwAAQBAJ |title=The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Volume 4: October 1780 to February 1781 |publisher=Princeton University Press |year=2018 |isbn=978-0691184692 |editor-last=Julian P. Boyd |ref=jefferson1780 |author-link=Thomas Jefferson }} * {{Cite book |last=Johnston |first=Henry Phelps |url=https://archive.org/details/battleofharlemhe00john_0/page/n10/mode/2up |title=The Battle of Harlem Heights |publisher=Columbia University Press |year=1897 |ref=johnston1897 }} * {{Cite book |last=Jones |first=Howard |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=TFyLOUrdGFwC&amp;q=crucible+of+power |title=Crucible of Power: A History of American Foreign Relations to 1913 |publisher=Scholarly Resources Inc. |year=2002 |isbn=978-0842029162 |page=5 |ref=jones2002 }} &lt;!-- K --&gt; * {{Cite book |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=t3SDQgfxsCIC |title=A Necessary Evil?: Slavery and the Debate Over the Constitution |publisher=Rowman &amp; Littlefield |year=1995 |isbn=978-0945612339 |editor-last=Kaminski |editor-first=John P. |ref=kaminski1995 }} * {{Cite journal |last=Kaplan |first=Lawrence S. |date=September 1983 |title=The Treaty of Paris, 1783: A Historiographical Challenge |journal=International History Review |publisher=Taylor &amp; Francis, Ltd. |volume=5 |pages=431–442 |doi=10.1080/07075332.1983.9640322 |jstor=40105317 |ref=lskaplan1983 |number=3}} * {{Cite book |last=Katcher |first=Philip |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=5Ld2AAAAMAAJ |title=Encyclopedia of British, Provincial, and German Army Units, 1775–1783 |date=1973 |publisher=Stackpole Books |isbn=978-0811705424 |ref=katcher }} * {{cite CE1913|wstitle=Jean-Baptiste-Donatien de Vimeur, Count de Rochambeau |volume= 13 |last= Keiley |first= Jarvis|ref=keiley1912 }} * {{Cite book |last1=Kelly |first1=James |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=4wMaAQAAIAAJ |title=Jamestown, Quebec, Santa Fe: Three North American Beginnings |last2=Smith |first2=Barbara Clark |date=2007 |publisher=Smithsonian |isbn=978-1588342416 |ref=kelly }} * {{Cite book |last=Kennedy |first=Frances H. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=rTSTAwAAQBAJ |title=The American Revolution: A Historical Guidebook |publisher=Oxford UP |year=2014 |isbn=978-0199324224 |page=163 |ref=kennedy2014 }} * {{Cite book |last=Ketchum |first=Richard M |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ZWf2AwAAQBAJ |title=The Winter Soldiers: The Battles for Trenton and Princeton |publisher=Henry Holt and Company (reprint of 1973) |year=2014 |isbn=978-1466879515 |ref=ketchum73 |author-link=Richard M. Ketchum |orig-year=1973 }} * {{Cite book |last=Ketchum |first=Richard M |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=w00MBAAAQBAJ |title=Saratoga: Turning Point of America's Revolutionary War |publisher=Macmillan |year=1997 |isbn=978-0805046816 |ref=ketchum97 |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last=Ketchum |first=Robert M. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=QGf2AwAAQBAJ&amp;q=frontal |title=Decisive Day: The Battle for Bunker Hill |publisher=Henry Holt and Company |year=2014 |isbn=978-1466879508 |ref=ketchum2014a |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last=Ketchum |first=Richard M. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=CwEDBAAAQBAJ&amp;q=6,000 |title=Victory at Yorktown: The Campaign That Won the Revolution |publisher=Henry Holt and Company |year=2014 |isbn=978-1466879539 |ref=ketchum2014b |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last=Kolchin |first=Peter |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=F3nMRwAACAAJ |title=American Slavery: 1619–1877 |publisher=New York: Hill and Wang |year=1994 |isbn=978-0809015542 |ref=kolchin1994 }}, p.&amp;nbsp;73 * {{Cite book |last=Knesebeck |first=Ernst von dem |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=eNF3DgAAQBAJ&amp;q=Hanover |title=Geschichte der kurhannoverschen Truppen: in Gibraltar, Menorca und Ostindien |publisher=Im Verlage der Helwingschen Hof-Buchhandlung |year=2017 |isbn=978-9925057382 |ref=ernst |orig-year=1845 }} * {{Cite book |last=Kupperman |first=Karen Ordahl |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=lIp7_e8KMJ0C |title=The Jamestown Project |publisher=Harvard University Press |year=2009 |isbn=978-0674027022 |ref=kupperman }} &lt;!-- L --&gt; * {{Cite book |last1=Lanctot |first1=Gustave |title=Canada and the American Revolution 1774–1783 |translator-last=Cameron|translator-first= Margaret M|publisher=Harvard University Press |year=1967|oclc=70781264 |ref=lanctot}} * {{Cite book |last=Landrum |first=John Belton O'Neall |url=https://archive.org/details/colonialandrevo00landgoog |title=Colonial and Revolutionary History of Upper South Carolina |publisher=Shannon |year=1897 |location=Greenville, SC |oclc=187392639 |ref=landrum1897 }} * {{Cite book |last=Lanning |first=Michael |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=1GEs53wMr7EC&amp;pg=PA193 |title=American Revolution 100: The Battles, People, and Events of the American War for Independence, Ranked by Their Significance |publisher=Sourcebooks |year=2009 |isbn=978-1402241703 |pages=195–196 |ref=lanning2009 }} * {{Cite book |last=Lanning |first=Michael |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=EQ-uPQAACAAJ |title=Defenders Of Liberty: African Americans in the Revolutionary War |publisher=Citadel Press |year=2012 |isbn=978-1559725132 |ref=lanning2012 }} * {{Cite book |last=Lass |first=William |title=Minnesota's Boundary with Canada: Its Evolution Since 1783|publisher=Minnesota Historical Society Press |year=1980 |isbn=978-0873511537}} * {{Cite book |last=Lecky |first=William Edward Hartpole |url=https://archive.org/details/historyofengland03leck/page/n6/mode/2up |title=A History of England in the Eighteenth Century |publisher=London: Longmans, Green |year=1892 |volume=3 |ref=lecky3 }} * {{Cite book |last=Lecky |first=William Edward Hartpole |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=m3cUAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA70 |title=A History of England |year=1891 |volume=4 |pages=70–78 |ref=lecky4 |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last=Lefkowitz |first=Arthur S. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=tCcRAQAAMAAJ |title=Benedict Arnold's Army: The 1775 American Invasion of Canada during the Revolutionary War |publisher=Savas Beatie |year=2007 |isbn=978-1932714036 |ref=lefkowitz2007 }} * {{Cite book |last=Lengel |first=Edward |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=yHTGAAAACAAJ |title=General George Washington |publisher=Random House Paperbacks |year=2005 |isbn=978-0812969504 |location=New York |ref=lengel2005 |author-link=Edward G. Lengel }} * {{Cite book |last=Lockhart |first=Paul Douglas |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Iq8KX4VOgJEC |title=The Drillmaster at Valley Forge: The Baron de Steuben and the Making of the American Army |date=2010 |publisher=Harper Perennial |isbn=978-0061451645 |ref=lockhart }} * {{Cite archive |author1=Louis XVI, his most Christian King |author2=Commissioners of the United States of America |item=Treaty of Alliance |date=6 February 1778|url=https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fr1788-2.asp |collection=18th Century |institution=Yale Law School Avalon Project |ref=louisXVI1778b |quote=Thirteen articles}} * {{Cite book |last=Lowell |first=Edward Jackson |url=https://archive.org/details/hessiansotherger00lowe/page/n4/mode/2up |title=The Hessians and the other German auxiliaries of Great Britain in the revolutionary war |publisher=Harper &amp; Brothers. |year=1884 |location=New York |ref=lowell84 }} * {{Cite book |last=Lowenthal |first=Larry |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=TPEQAQAAMAAJ |title=Hell on the East River: British Prison Ships in the American Revolution |publisher=Purple Mountain Press |year=2009 |isbn=978-0916346768 |ref=lowenthal2009 }} &lt;!-- M --&gt; * {{Cite book |last=Mackesy |first=Piers |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=VKJ2AAAAMAAJ |title=The War for America: 1775–1783 |publisher=University of Nebraska Press |year=1993 |isbn=978-0803281929 |ref=mackesy93 |orig-year=1964 }}–&amp;nbsp;Highly regarded examination of British strategy and leadership. An introduction by John W. Shy with his biographical sketch of Mackesy. * {{Cite book |last=Mahan |first=Alfred Thayer |url=https://archive.org/details/seanpowerinf00maha/page/n6/mode/2up |title=The influence of sea power upon history, 1660–1783 |publisher=Boston : Little, Brown and Company |year=1890 |ref=mahan1890 |author-link=Alfred Thayer Mahan }} * {{Cite book |last=Mahan |first=Alfred T. |url=https://archive.org/details/majoroperationso00maha |title=Major Operations of the Royal Navy, 1762–1783: Being Chapter XXXI in The Royal Navy. A History |publisher=Little, Brown |year=1898 |location=Boston |oclc=46778589 |ref=mahan1898 |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last=Mahan |first=Alfred Thayer |url=https://archive.org/details/majoroperationso1913maha |title=The Major Operations of the Navies in the War of American Independence |publisher=Courier Dover Publications |year=2020 |isbn=978-0486842103 |ref=mahan2020 |author-mask=2 |orig-year=1913 }} * {{Cite book |last=Maier |first=Pauline |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=yvsCEY5oI8sC |title=American scripture: making the Declaration of Independence |publisher=Vintage Books |year=1998 |isbn=978-0679779087 |ref=maier1998 |author-link=Pauline Maier }} * {{Cite journal |last=Mauch |first=Christof |date=Winter 1998 |title=Images of America—Political Myths—Historiography: &quot;Hessians&quot; in the War of Independence |journal=Amerikastudien / American Studies |publisher=Universitätsverlag WINTER Gmbh |volume=48 |issue=3 |pages=411–423 |jstor=41157873 |ref=mauch2003}} * {{Cite book |last=Mays |first=Terry M. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=e35_DwAAQBAJ |title=Historical Dictionary of the American Revolution |publisher=Rowman &amp; Littlefield |year=2016 |isbn=978-1538119723 |ref=mays2019 }} * {{Cite book |last=McCrady |first=Edward |url=https://archive.org/details/historyofsouthca00mccr |title=The history of South Carolina in the Revolution, 1775–1780 |publisher=New York, The Macmillan Company; London, Macmillan &amp; Co., ltd. |year=1901 |ref=mccrady1775 }} * {{Cite book |last=McCullough |first=David |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uu1mC6zWNTwC |title=1776 |publisher=New York: Simon &amp; Schuster |year=2005 |isbn=978-0743287708 |ref=mccullough2005 |author-link=David McCullough }} * {{Cite book |last=McGeorge |first=Wallace |url=https://archive.org/details/battleofredbankr00mcge |title=The battle of Red Bank, resulting in the defeat of the Hessians and the destruction of the British frigate Augusta, Oct. 22 and 23, 1777 |publisher=Camden, New Jersey, Sinnickson Chew, printers |year=1905 |ref=mcgeorge1905 }} * {{Cite book |last=McGuire |first=Thomas J. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=OsNi7Byog6kC&amp;pg=PA166 |title=Stop the Revolution: America in the Summer of Independence and the Conference for Peace |publisher=Stackpole Books |year=2011 |isbn=978-0811745086 |ref=mcguire2011 }} * {{Cite book |last=Middlekauff |first=Robert |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=nya0ODz-B-cC |title=The Glorious Cause: The American Revolution, 1763–1789 |publisher=Oxford University Press |year=2007 |isbn=978-0199740925 |ref=middlekauff1982 |author-link=Robert Middlekauff |orig-year=1982 }} * {{Cite journal |last=Middleton |first=Richard |date=2014 |title=Naval Resources and the British Defeat at Yorktown, 1781 |url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00253359.2014.866373 |journal=The Mariner's Mirror |volume=100 |issue=1 |pages=29–43 |doi=10.1080/00253359.2014.866373 |ref=middleton2014 |s2cid=154569534 }} * {{Cite book |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=huu6xgEACAAJ |title=Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States of America: 1776–1818 &amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;(Documents 1–40)&lt;/small&gt; |publisher=U.S. Government Printing Office |year=1931 |editor-last=Miller, Hunter |volume=II |ref=miller1931 }} * {{Cite book |last=Miller |first=John C. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=DlmrAAAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA410 |title=Origins of the American Revolution |publisher=Stanford UP |year=1959 |isbn=978-0804705936 |ref=miller1959 }} * {{Cite journal |last=Mitchell |first=Barbara A. |date=Autumn 2012 |title=America's Spanish Savior: Bernardo de Gálvez |url=http://www.historynet.com/americas-spanish-savior-bernardo-de-galvez.htm |journal=MHQ (Military History Quarterly) |pages=98–104 |ref=mitchell2012 }} * {{Cite book |last=Montero |first=Francisco Maria |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=bHRmkdBONd0C |title=Historia de Gibraltar y de su campo |publisher=Imprenta de la Revista Médica |year=1860 |page=356 |language=es |ref=montero }} * {{Cite book |last=Morgan |first=Edmund S. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=QC1dtQAACAAJ |title=The Birth of the Republic: 1763–1789 |publisher=University of Chicago Press |year=2012 |isbn=978-0226923420 |edition=4th |quote=foreword by Joseph Ellis |ref=morgan2012 |orig-year=1956 }} * {{Cite book |last=Morley |first=Vincent |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=iBrJz9XYzNgC&amp;pg=PA154 |title=Irish Opinion and the American Revolution, 1760–1783 |publisher=Cambridge UP |year=2002 |isbn=978-1139434560 |ref=morley2002 }} * {{Cite book |last=Morrill |first=Dan |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=RXh2AAAAMAAJ |title=Southern Campaigns of the American Revolution |publisher=Nautical &amp; Aviation Publishing |year=1993 |isbn=978-1877853210 |ref=morrill }} * {{Cite book |last=Morris |first=Richard B. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=_sXbxwEACAAJ |title=The Peacemakers: The Great Powers and American Independence |year=1983 |isbn=978-1299106598 |ref=morris1965 |orig-year=1965 }} * {{Cite book |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=CUV2AAAAMAAJ |title=Encyclopedia of American History |publisher=Harper &amp; Row |year=1982 |isbn=978-0061816055 |editor-last=Morris |editor-first=Richard B. |edition=6th |quote=with Henry Steele Commager as chief consulting editor |ref=Morris1982 |editor2-last=Morris |editor2-first=Jeffrey B. }} * {{Cite book |last=Morrissey |first=Brendan |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=eR9WvgAACAAJ |title=Yorktown 1781: The World Turned Upside Down |publisher=Bloomsbury |year=1997 |isbn=978-1855326880 |ref=morrissey1997 }} * {{Cite book |last=Mulhall |first=Michael G. |url=https://archive.org/details/newdictionaryofs00webb |title=Mulhall's Dictionary of Statistics |publisher=George Boutleddge and Sons, London |year=1884 |ref=mulhall |orig-year=1884 }} &lt;!-- N --&gt; * {{Cite book |last1=Namier |first1=Lewis |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Taw7DVGrbRcC&amp;pg=RA1-PA246 |title=The House of Commons 1754–1790 |last2=Brooke |first2=John |publisher=Boydell &amp; Brewer |year=1985 |isbn=978-04363-0420-0 |ref=namier1985 }} * {{Cite book |last=Nash |first=Gary B. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=nOURDAAAQBAJ |title=Oxford Handbook of the American Revolution |date=2012 |publisher=Oxford University Press |isbn=978-0199746705 |editor-last=Gray |editor-first=Edward G. |pages=250–270 |chapter=Chapter: The African Americans Revolution |quote=Oxford Handbooks |ref=nash2012 |editor2-last=Kamensky |editor2-first=Jane }} * {{Cite book |last=Nash |first=Gary |title=The Unknown American Revolution: The Unruly Birth of Democracy and the Struggle to Create America |date=2005 |publisher=Viking Books |isbn=978-0670034208 |ref=nash2005}} * {{Cite book |last=Nelson |first=Larry L. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=y1KekDaaKKAC |title=A Man of Distinction among Them: Alexander McKee and the Ohio Country Frontier, 1754–1799 |publisher=Kent, Ohio: Kent State University Press |year=1999 |isbn=978-0873387002 |ref=nelson1999 }} * {{Cite book |last=Nester |first=William R. |title=The Frontier War for American Independence |publisher=Stackpole Books |year=2004 |isbn=978-0811700771 |ref=nester2004}} &lt;!-- O --&gt; * {{Cite book |last=O'Brien |first=Greg |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=jGFmNPevedUC&amp;pg=PA123 |title=Pre-removal Choctaw history: exploring new paths |year=2008 |publisher=University of Oklahoma Press |isbn=978-0806139166 |ref=o'brien2008 |access-date=March 25, 2011 }} * {{Cite journal |last=Olsen |first=Alison G |date=1992 |title=Eighteenth-Century Colonial Legislatures and Their Constituents |journal=The Journal of American History |volume=79 |issue=2 |pages=543–567 |doi=10.2307/2080046 |jstor=2080046 |ref=olsen1992}} * {{Cite book |last=Otfinoski |first=Steven |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=RqAaRdNGCYIC |title=The New Republic |date=2008 |publisher=Marshall Cavendish |isbn=978-0761429388 |ref=otfinoski }} * {{Cite journal |last=O'Shaughnessy |first=Andrew Jackson |date=Spring 2004 |title=If Others Will Not Be Active, I Must Drive&quot;: George III and the American Revolution |journal=Early American Studies |publisher=University of Pennsylvania Press |volume=2 |issue=1 |pages=1–46 |doi=10.1353/eam.2007.0037 |jstor=23546502 |ref=oshaughnessy2004 |s2cid=143613757}} * {{Cite book |last=O'Shaughnessy |first=Andrew |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zFc-UCp6ZQsC |title=The Men Who Lost America |publisher=Yale University Press |year=2013 |isbn=978-0300191073 |ref=nessy |author-mask=2 }} &lt;!-- P --&gt; * {{Cite book |last=Paine |first=Thomas |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=8xNAMDp9NasC |title=Common Sense |publisher=Penguin Classics |year=1982 |isbn=978-0140390162 |editor-last=Kramnick, Isaac |ref=kramnick82 }} * {{Cite book |last=Pancake |first=John |url=https://archive.org/details/thisdestructivew00panc |title=This Destructive War |publisher=University of Alabama Press |year=1985 |isbn=978-0817301910 |ref=pancake1985 }} * {{Cite book |last=Palmer |first=Dave Richard |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zANrP6rOOJkC |title=George Washington and Benedict Arnold: A Tale of Two Patriots |publisher=Simon and Schuster |year=2010 |isbn=978-1596981645 |ref=palmer2010 }} * {{Cite book |last=Pares |first=Richard |url=https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001314334 |title=War and Trade in the West Indies, 1739–1763 |date=1963 |publisher=F. Cass Press |quote=online at Hathi Trust |ref=pares |orig-year=1936 }} * {{Cite book |last=Paterson |first=Thomas G. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=9-alDgRk-IYC&amp;pg=PA13 |title=American Foreign Relations, Volume 1: A History to 1920 |publisher=Cengage Learning |year=2009 |isbn=978-0547225647 |pages=13–15 |ref=paterson2009 |display-authors=etal }} * {{Cite book |last=Paullin |first=Charles |url=https://archive.org/details/navyamericanrev01paulgoog |title=The navy of the American Revolution: its administration, its policy and its achievements Oscar |publisher=The Burrows Brothers Co |year=1906 |quote=paullin massachusetts navy. |ref=paullin }} * {{Cite thesis |last=Pearson |first=Jesse T |title=The Failure of British Strategy during the Southern Campaign of the American Revolutionary War, 1780–81 |publisher=Faculty of the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College |url=https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a437052.pdf |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210228062141/https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a437052.pdf |url-status=live |archive-date=February 28, 2021 |year=2005 |type=Thesis |ref=pearson2005 }} * {{Cite book |last=Peckham |first=Howard Henry |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=khuuQgAACAAJ |title=The Toll of Independence: Engagements &amp; Battle Casualties of the American Revolution |publisher=University of Chicago Press |year=1974 |isbn=978-0226653181 |ref=peckham74 }} * {{Cite book |last=Peterson |first=Merrill D. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=XcOXEb0O4-UC |title=Thomas Jefferson and the New Nation |publisher=Oxford University Press |year=1975 |isbn=978-0195019094 |ref=peterson1975 |orig-year=1970 }} * {{Cite book |last=Philbrick |first=Nathaniel |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=wZ1iCgAAQBAJ |title=Valiant Ambition: George Washington, Benedict Arnold, and the Fate of the American Revolution |publisher=Penguin Books |year=2016 |isbn=978-0698153233 |ref=philbrick2016 }} * {{Cite journal |last=Piecuch |first=Jim |date=October 2004 |title=Massacre or Myth? Banastre Tarleton at the Waxhaws, May 29, 1780 |url=http://www.southerncampaign.org/newsletter/v1n2.pdf |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20221009/http://www.southerncampaign.org/newsletter/v1n2.pdf |archive-date=2022-10-09 |url-status=live |journal=Southern Campaigns of the American Revolution |volume=1 |issue=2 |ref=piecuch2004 }} * {{Cite journal |last=Pybus |first=Cassandra |year=2005 |title=Jefferson's Faulty Math: The Question of Slave Defections in the American Revolution |journal=The William and Mary Quarterly |volume=62 |issue=2 |pages=243–264 |doi=10.2307/3491601 |jstor=3491601 |ref=pybus2005}} &lt;!-- R --&gt; * {{Cite book |last=Raab |first=James W. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=eCc8BQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA135 |title=Spain, Britain and the American Revolution in Florida, 1763–1783 |year=2007 |isbn=978-0786432134 |page=135 |publisher=McFarland |ref=raab }} * {{Cite journal |last=Randall |first=Willard Sterne |date=Summer 1990 |title=Benedict Arnold at Quebec |url=http://www.aferguson.net/mhq/default.asp?year=1990&amp;vol=2&amp;issue=4 |journal=MHQ: The Quarterly Journal of Military History |volume=2 |issue=40 |pages=38–39 |access-date=March 31, 2020 |ref=randall'mhq |archive-date=September 23, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200923095400/http://www.aferguson.net/mhq/default.asp?year=1990&amp;vol=2&amp;issue=4 |url-status=dead }} * {{Cite book |last=Rankin |first=Hugh F. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=cJIqTB0B_7kC |title=Rebels and Redcoats: The American Revolution Through the Eyes of Those who Fought and Lived it |publisher=Da Capo Press |year=1987 |isbn=978-03068-03079 |ref=rankin }} * {{Cite book |last=Rankin |first=Hugh F. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=GV_MCQAAQBAJ |title=The North Carolina Continentals |year=2011 |publisher=UNC Press Books |isbn=978-1258093402 |editor-last=Memory F. Blackwelder |ref=rankin |author-mask=2 |orig-year=1996 }} * {{Cite book |last=Rappleye |first=Charles |url=https://archive.org/details/robertm_rap_2010_00_1148 |title=Robert Morris: Financier of the American Revolution |date=2010 |publisher=Simon &amp; Schuster |isbn=978-1416570912 |ref=Rappleye2010 |url-access=registration }} * {{Cite book |last=Reeve |first=John L. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=3k9_AgAAQBAJ |title=Strategy in the American War of Independence: A Global Approach |publisher=Routledge |year=2009 |isbn=978-1134210398 |editor-last=Hagan |editor-first=Kenneth J. |chapter=British Naval Strategy: War on a Global Scale |ref=reeve |editor2-last=McMaster |editor2-first=Michael T. |editor3-last=Stoker |editor3-first=Donald }} * {{Cite journal |last=Reid |first=Darren R. |date=June 19, 2017 |title=Anti-Indian Radicalisation in the Early American West, 1774–1795 |url=https://allthingsliberty.com/2017/06/anti-indian-radicalisation-early-american-west-1774-1795 |journal=Journal of the American Revolution |ref=reidD2017 }} * {{Cite book |last=Reid |first=John Phillip |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=K4zyARfDVpUC |title=The Authority to Tax: Constitutional History of the American Revolution |date=1987 |publisher=University of Wisconsin Press |isbn=978-0299112905 |ref=reidJ1987 }} * {{Cite book |last=Renaut |first=Francis P. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=WZQFAQAAIAAJ |title=Le Pacte de famille et l'Amérique: La politique coloniale franco-espagnole de 1760 à 1792 |year=1922 |location=Paris |ref=renaut1922 }} * {{Cite book |last=Reynolds |first=William R. Jr. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=2dK4A8bpxEYC&amp;q=Augusta |title=Andrew Pickens: South Carolina Patriot in the Revolutionary War |publisher=McFarland &amp; Company, Inc. |year=2012 |isbn=978-0786466948 |location=Jefferson, NC |ref=reynolds2012 }} * {{Cite book |last1=Rignault |first1=Daniel P. |url=http://resource.nlm.nih.gov/101659674 |title=The History of the French Military Medical Corps |translator-last=DeBakey |translator-first=Michael E. |publisher=Ministère de la défense, Service de santé des armées |year=2004 |id=NLM 101659674 }} * {{Cite web |last=Rinaldi |first=Richard A. |title=The British Army 1775–1783 |url=https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/30059083/the-british-army-1775-1783-richard-a-rinaldi-orders-of-battle |access-date=September 23, 2013 |publisher=Yumpu |ref=rinaldi |archive-date=August 17, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210817011751/https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/30059083/the-british-army-1775-1783-richard-a-rinaldi-orders-of-battle |url-status=dead }} * {{Cite book |last=Risch |first=Erna |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=sfpt2Wjzcw4C |title=Supplying Washington's Army |publisher=Center of Military History, United States Army |year=1981 |ref=risch1981 }} * {{Cite journal |last=Ritcheson |first=Charles R. |year=1973 |title=&quot;Loyalist Influence&quot; on British Policy Toward the United States After the American Revolution |journal=Eighteenth-Century Studies |publisher=Johns Hopkins University Press |volume=7 |issue=1 |pages=1–17 |doi=10.2307/3031609 |jstor=3031609 |ref=ritcheson}} * Robinson Library {{Cite web |title=Battle of Monmouth Courthouse |url=http://www.robinsonlibrary.com/america/unitedstates/1775/campaigns/monmouth.htm |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120213042627/http://www.robinsonlibrary.com/america/unitedstates/1775/campaigns/monmouth.htm |url-status=dead |archive-date=February 13, 2012 |access-date=June 20, 2017 |website=Robinson Library |publisher=Self-published |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Rose |first=Alexander |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=K4lUeuo-UI8C |title=Washington's Spies: The Story of America's First Spy Ring |publisher=Bantam Books |year=2014 |isbn=978-0553392593 |ref=alexrose |orig-year=2006 }} * {{Cite book |last=Rose |first=Michael |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=tUWSAAAAQBAJ |title=Washington's War: From Independence To Iraq |publisher=Orion Publishers |year=2013 |isbn=978-1780227108 |ref=rose2013 }} * {{Cite book |last=Rossman |first=Vadim |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=A3djDQAAQBAJ |title=Capital Cities: Varieties and Patterns of Development and Relocation |publisher=Taylor &amp; Francis |year=2016 |isbn=978-1317562856 |ref=rosssman2016 }} * {{Cite book |last=Russell |first=David Lee |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=5DFy0eWaPxIC&amp;pg=PA72 |title=The American Revolution in the Southern colonies |publisher=McFarland |year=2000 |isbn=978-0786407835 |location=Jefferson, NC |oclc=248087936 |ref=russell }} &lt;!-- S --&gt; * {{Cite book |last1=Savas |first1=Theodore P. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KRRSfy7eVoIC |title=A Guide to the Battles of the American Revolution |last2=Dameron |first2=J. David |publisher=Savas Beatie LLC |year=2006 |isbn=978-1611210118 |ref=savas2006 }} * {{Cite book |last1=Scheer |first1=George F. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=WC2vugAACAAJ |title=Rebels and Redcoats |last2=Rankin |first2=Hugh F. |publisher=New American library |year=1959 |asin=B000ZLZW9I |ref=scheer1959 }} * {{Cite book |last=Schecter |first=Barnet |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=9LRhOpZid40C |title=The Battle for New York: The city at the heart of the American Revolution |publisher=Penguin Books |year=2003 |isbn=978-0142003336 |ref=schecter }} * {{Cite journal |last=Schmidt |first=H. D. |date=1958 |title='The Hessian mercenaries: the career of a political cliche |journal=History |publisher=Wiley |volume=43 |issue=149 |pages=207–212 |doi=10.1111/j.1468-229X.1958.tb02208.x |jstor=24404012 |ref=schmidt1958}} * {{Cite journal |last=Scott |first=Hamish M |date=1988 |title=Sir Joseph Yorke, Dutch Politics and the Origins of the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War |journal=The Historical Journal |volume=31 |issue=3 |pages=571–589 |doi=10.1017/S0018246X00023499 |jstor=2639757 |s2cid=154619712 |ref=scott1988}} * {{Cite book |last=Scott |first=Hamish M. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=kndnAAAAMAAJ |title=British Foreign Policy in the Age of the American Revolution |publisher=Clarendon Press |year=1990 |isbn=978-0198201953 |ref=scott1990 }} * {{Cite web |last=Showalter |first=Dennis |year=2007 |title=Hessians: The Best Armies Money Could Buy |url=https://www.historynet.com/hessians-the-best-armies-money-could-buy.htm |access-date=October 3, 2020 |publisher=Military History Magazine/HistoryNet |ref=showalter2007 }} * {{Cite thesis |last=Schwamenfeld |first=Steven W. |title=&quot;The Foundation of British Strength&quot;: National Identity and the British Common Soldier |publisher=Florida State University |url=https://fsu.digital.flvc.org/islandora/object/fsu:176453/datastream/PDF/view |year=2007 |type=PHD |ref=schwamenfeld2007 }} * {{cite book |last=Seineke |first=Kathrine Wagner |title=George Rogers Clark: Adventure in the Illinois and Selected Documents of the American Revolution at the Frontier Posts |publisher=Polyanthos |year=1981 |isbn=9992016531 |ref=seineke1981}} * {{Cite book |last=Selby |first=John E. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=WfCBYZs_jIMC |title=The Revolution in Virginia, 1775–1783 |publisher=Colonial Williamsburg |year=2007 |isbn=978-0879352332 |ref=selby2007 }} * {{cite book|last=Simmons|first=Edwin Howard|author-link=Edwin H. Simmons|title=The United States Marines: A History|edition=4th|publisher=[[United States Naval Institute|Naval Institute Press]]|year=2003|location=[[Annapolis, Maryland]]|isbn=1591147905|url-access=registration|url=https://archive.org/details/unitedstatesmari0000simm_r8b9|ref=simmons2003}} * {{Cite book |last=Simms |first=Brendan |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=izhwqC3W23UC |title=Three Victories and a Defeat: The Rise and Fall of the First British Empire, 1714–1783 |publisher=Penguin Books Limited |year=2009 |isbn=978-0140289848 |ref=simms }} * {{Cite book |last=Skaggs |first=David Curtis |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=1niaAAAAIAAJ |title=The Old Northwest in the American Revolution: An Anthology |publisher=State Historical Society of Wisconsin |year=1977 |isbn=978-0870201646 |ref=skaggs1977 }} * {{Cite book |last=Smith |first=David |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=IlMa-Krnxl8C&amp;pg=PA21 |title=New York 1776: The Continentals' First Battle |publisher=Osprey Publishing |year=2012 |isbn=978-1782004431 |ref=smithD2012 }} * {{Cite book |last=Smith |first=Justin Harvey |url=https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_Ls9BAAAAIAAJ |title=Our Struggle for the Fourteenth Colony: Canada and the American Revolution |publisher=G.P. Putnam's Sons |year=1907 |volume=1 |location=New York &amp; London |ref=smithJ1907a }} * {{Cite book |last=Smith |first=Justin Harvey |url=https://archive.org/details/ourstruggleforf03smitgoog |title=Our Struggle for the Fourteenth Colony: Canada and the American Revolution |publisher=G.P. Putnam's Sons |year=1907 |volume=1 |location=New York &amp; London |ref=smithJ1907b |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last1=Franklin |first1=Benjamin |url=https://archive.org/details/diplomaticcorres01sparuoft/page/n7/mode/2up/search/Portugal |title=The diplomatic correspondence of the American Revolution |last2=Lee |first2=Arthur |last3=Adams |first3=John |publisher=Boston: Hale, Gray &amp; Bowen |year=1829 |editor-last=Sparks |editor-first=Jared |volume=1 |ref=sparks1829 }} * {{Cite book |last=Stanley |first=George |url=https://archive.org/details/canadainvaded17700stan |title=Canada Invaded 1775–1776 |publisher=Hakkert |year=1973 |isbn=978-0888665782 |location=Toronto |oclc=4807930 |ref=stanley |url-access=registration }} * {{Cite book |last=Stedman |first=Charles |url=https://archive.org/details/gri_33125010928733/page/n6/mode/2up |title=The history of the origin, progress, and termination of the American war |publisher=Dublin : Printed for Messrs. P. Wogan, P. Byrne, J. Moore, and W. Jones |year=1794 |volume=1 |ref=stedman1 }} * {{Cite book |url=https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofnat02stepuoft/page/64/mode/2up?q=Aruthnot |title=Dictionary of National Biography |publisher=Macmillan |year=1885–1900 |editor-last=Stephen, Leslie |volume=2 |location=New York |ref=stephen1885 |editor2-last=Lee, Sidney }} * {{Cite book |url=http://history.army.mil/books/AMH-V1/ch04.htm |title=American Military History Volume 1 The United States Army and the Forging of a Nation, 1775–1917 |publisher=Center of Military History, United States Army |year=2005 |isbn=0160723620 |editor-last=Stewart, Richard W. |volume=4 |location=Washington, D.C. |ref=stewartR }} * {{Cite book |last=Stockley |first=Andrew |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=mHoaiPKTKvwC |title=Britain and France at the Birth of America: The European Powers and the Peace Negotiations of 1782–1783 |publisher=University of Exeter Press |year=2001 |isbn=978-0859896153 |ref=stockley2001 }} * {{Cite book |last=Stone |first=Bailey |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=UAZAhYVJwlUC |title=The Genesis of the French Revolution: A Global Historical Interpretation |year=1994 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |isbn=978-0521445702 |ref=stone1994 }} * {{Cite book |last=Syrett |first=David |url=https://archive.org/details/royalnavyineurop00syre |title=The Royal Navy in European Waters During the American Revolutionary War |publisher=Univ of South Carolina Press |year=1998 |isbn=978-1570032387 |ref=syrett1998 |url-access=registration }} * {{cite book |last=Stryker |first=William Scudder |title=The Battles of Trenton and Princeton |volume= |author-link= |publisher=Boston : Houghton, Mifflin and Company |year=1898 |url=https://archive.org/details/battlesoftrenton00stry/page/n9/mode/2up |ref=stryker1898 }} &lt;!-- T --&gt; * {{Cite book |last=Taafe |first=Stephen R. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=LlN2AAAAMAAJ |title=The Philadelphia Campaign, 1777–1778 |date=2003 |publisher=University Press of Kansas |isbn=978-0700612673 |ref=taffe }} * {{Cite book |last=Taylor |first=Alan |title=[[American Revolutions: A Continental History, 1750–1804]] |publisher=WW Norton &amp; Company |year=2016 |isbn=978-0393253870 |ref=taylor2016 |author-link=Alan Taylor (historian) }} * {{Cite book |last=Tellier |first=L.-N. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=cXuCjDbxC1YC |title=Urban World History: an Economic and Geographical Perspective |publisher=Quebec: PUQ |year=2009 |isbn=978-2760522091 |ref=tellier2009 }} * {{Cite web |last=Thomas |first=Molly |date=November 9, 2017 |title=The Last Naval Battle of the American Revolution |url=https://myfloridahistory.org/frontiers/article/184 |access-date=October 2, 2020 |publisher=Florida Frontiers Article, The Florida Historical Society |ref=thomas2017 }} * {{Cite web |last=Tolson |first=Jay |date=27 June 2008 |title=How George Washington's Savvy Won the Day:Despite his share of errors, the commander in chief prevailed as a strategist and a politician |url=https://www.usnews.com/news/national/articles/2008/06/27/how-george-washingtons-savvy-won-the-day?context=amp |access-date=29 September 2020 |ref=tolson }} * {{Cite book |last=Trevelyan |first=George Otto |url=https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hw20mv&amp;view=1up&amp;seq=7 |title=George the Third and Charles Fox: the concluding part of The American revolution |date=1912 |publisher=Longmans, Green, and Company |quote=Archived online at HathiTrust.org |ref=trevelyan1912a |author-link=Sir George Trevelyan, 2nd Baronet }} * {{Cite book |last=Trevelyan |first=George Otto |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=_ggRIvlX3hAC |title=History of the American Revolution |date=1912 |publisher=Longmans, Green &amp; Co. |volume=IV |ref=trevelyan1912b |author-mask=2 |author-link=Sir George Trevelyan, 2nd Baronet }} * {{Cite book |last=Tucker |first=Mary |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=IZUx6QnUxxQC&amp;pg=PA22 |title=Washington Crossing the Delaware |date=March 1, 2002 |publisher=Lorenz Educational Press |isbn=978-0787785642 |pages=22–23 |ref=tucker2002 }} &lt;!-- U --&gt; * {{Cite web |last=U.S. Census Bureau |date=September 1975 |title=Historical Statistics of the United States, Colonial Times to 1970; Colonial and Pre-Federal Statistics |url=https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1975/compendia/hist_stats_colonial-1970.html |quote=Bicentennial Edition |ref=uscb1975 }} * {{Cite web |last=U.S. Central Intelligence Agency |date=5 December 2007 |title=An Overview of American Intelligence Until World War II |url=https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/2007-featured-story-archive/overview-of-american-intelligence.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080311225710/https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/2007-featured-story-archive/overview-of-american-intelligence.html |url-status=dead |archive-date=March 11, 2008 |website=US Central Intelligence Agency |quote=Featured Story Archive, Historical Document |ref=revamintel }} * {{Cite archive |author1=U.S. Congress |author 2=Tribes Northwest of the Ohio River: Wyandots, Delawares, etc. |item=Treaty of Greenville 1795 |date=3 August 1795 |url=https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/greenvil.asp |collection=Document Collection: 18th Century, 1700–1799 |institution=Yale Law School Avalon Project |ref=USCon1795 |quote=Ten articles in the treaty, and fifteen tribal signatories for sixteen tribes.}} * {{Cite archive |author=U.S. Military Academy History Department |item= Principal Campaigns of the War, 1775–1783 |item-url =https://www.westpoint.edu/sites/default/files/inline-images/academics/academic_departments/history/Am%20Rev/01ARPrincipalCampaigns.pdf |type =map |date = |series= Campaign Atlases of the United States Army |collection = The American Revolutionary War |collection-url= https://www.westpoint.edu/academics/academic-departments/history/atlases |institution = United States Military Academy, History Department |location = West Point, New York |accession=20 October 2020 |ref=arwcampaigns}} &lt;!-- V --&gt; * {{Cite journal |last=Vale |first=Brian |date=22 March 2013 |title=The Conquest of Scurvy in the Royal Navy 1793–1800: A Challenge to Current Orthodoxy |url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00253359.2008.10657052 |journal=The Mariner's Mirror |volume=94, 2008 |issue=2 |pages=160–175 |doi=10.1080/00253359.2008.10657052 |ref=vale2013 |s2cid=162207993 }} &lt;!-- W --&gt; * {{Cite book |last=Walker |first=James W. St. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=BMY79c675JsC |title=The Black Loyalists: The Search for a Promised Land in Nova Scotia and Sierra Leone, 1783–1870 |year=1992 |publisher=University of Toronto Press |isbn=978-0802074027 |ref=walker1992 }} * {{Cite book |last=Wallace |first=Willard M. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=y192AAAAMAAJ |title=Traitorous Hero: The Life and Fortunes of Benedict Arnold |publisher=Harper &amp; Brothers |year=1954 |isbn=978-1199083234 |location=New York |ref=wallace54 |author-link=Willard M. Wallace }} * {{cite book |last1=Wallace |first1=Willard M. |last2=Ray |first2=Michael |author-mask=2 |date=21 September 2015 |title=American Revolution |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/American-Revolution |access-date=24 August 2020 |website=Britannica |publisher=Encyclopedia Britannica |quote=American Revolution, (1775–83), insurrection by which 13 of Great Britain's North American colonies won political independence and went on to form the United States of America. |ref=wallaceray2015 }} * {{Cite book |last1=Ward |first1=A.W. |url=https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.107358/page/n503/mode/2up?q=Van+Tyne |title=Cambridge Modern History, vol.6 (18th Century) |last2=Prothero |first2=G.W. |publisher=University of Oxford, The University Press |year=1925 |quote=Digital Library of India Item 2015.107358 |ref=wardA1925 }} * {{Cite book |last=Ward |first=Christopher |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ut5DCgAAQBAJ |title=The War of the Revolution (2 volumes) |publisher=New York: Macmillan |year=1952 |isbn=978-1616080808 |quote=History of land battles in North America |ref=ward1952 }} * {{Cite book |last=Ward |first=Harry M. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=kgqa4_OBcIkC&amp;pg=PA198 |title=The war for independence and the transformation of American society |publisher=Psychology Press |year=1999 |isbn=978-1857286564 |ref=wardH1999 }} * {{Cite book |last=Washington |first=George |url=https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293023046711&amp;view=1up&amp;seq=190&amp;q1=small%20pox |title=The Writings of George Washington: from the Original Manuscript Sources 1745–1799 |publisher=United States Government Printing Office |year=1932 |editor1-last=Fitzpatrick |editor1-first=John C. |volume=7 January 13, 1777 – April 30, 1777 |location=Washington, D.C. |quote=George Washington Bicentennial Edition in 35 volumes |ref=washington1932 }} * {{Cite book |last1=Watson |first1=J. Steven |url=https://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;d=22810670 |title=The Reign of George III, 1760–1815 |last2=Clark |first2=Sir George |publisher=Oxford University Press |year=1960 |isbn=978-0198217138 |ref=watsonclark |access-date=August 24, 2017 |archive-date=May 24, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120524163653/http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;d=22810670 |url-status=dead }} * {{Cite book |last=Weeks |first=William |title=The New Cambridge History of American Foreign Relations: Volume 1 |orig-year=2013 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |isbn=978-1107536227 |year=2015 |ref=weeks2013}} * {{Cite book |last=Weigley |first=Russell F. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=77wNLMJn8CEC |title=The American Way of War |publisher=Indiana University Press |year=1977 |isbn=978-0253280299 |ref=weigley1977 }} * {{Cite web |last=White |first=Matthew |year=2010 |title=Spanish casualties in The American Revolutionary war |url=http://necrometrics.com/wars18c.htm#AmRev |publisher=Necrometrics |ref=white2020 }} * {{Cite book |last=Whiteley |first=Peter |title=Lord North: The Prime Minister Who Lost America |publisher=Hambledon Continuum |year=1996 |isbn=978-1852851453 |ref=whiteley1996}} * {{Cite book |last=Wilson |first=David K |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=X2GrR0Eyh-4C |title=The Southern Strategy: Britain's Conquest of South Carolina and Georgia, 1775–1780 |publisher=University of South Carolina Press |year=2005 |isbn=978-1570035739 |location=Columbia, SC |oclc=232001108 |ref=wilson2005 }} * {{Cite book |last=Winfield |first=Rif |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=VJCCAwAAQBAJ |title=British Warships in the Age of Sail: 1714–1792 |publisher=Seaforth Publishing |year=2007 |isbn=978-1844157006 |ref=winfield2007 }} (See also:[[British Warships in the Age of Sail]]) * {{Cite book |last=Wood |first=Gordon S. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=6lGinKwz7l8C |title='The Radicalism of the American Revolution |publisher=Alfred A. Knopf, New York |year=1992 |isbn=978-0307758965 |ref=wood1992 |author-link=Gordon S. Wood }} * {{Cite book |last=Wood |first=Gordon S. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=xxgcDgAAQBAJ |title=Friends Divided: John Adams and Thomas Jefferson |publisher=Penguin Press, New York |year=2017 |isbn=978-0735224711 |ref=wood2017 }} * {{Cite book |last=Wood |first=W. J. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Ims9O7z2zc0C |title=Battles of the Revolutionary War, 1775–1781 |publisher=Da Capo Press |year=2003 |isbn=978-0306806179 |ref=wood1995 |orig-year=1995 }} &lt;!-- Y --&gt; * {{Cite web |last=Yaniz |first=Jose I. |date=2009 |title=The Role of Spain in the American Revolution: An Unavoidable Mistake |url=https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a519344.pdf |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200924021946/https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a519344.pdf |url-status=live |archive-date=September 24, 2020 |publisher=Marine Corps University |ref=yaniz }} &lt;!-- Z --&gt; &lt;!--Websites without authors--&gt; * {{Cite web |last=Franklin |first=Bruce H |access-date=30 November 2015 |title=Which Side Benefitted the Most from the Native Americans |url=https://allthingsliberty.com/2015/11/which-side-benefited-the-most-from-the-native-americans/ |website=Journal of the American Revolution |date=November 30, 2015 |ref=jareditors2025 }} * Canada's Digital Collections Program {{Cite web |title=The Philipsburg Proclamation |url=http://www.blackloyalist.com/canadiandigitalcollection/story/revolution/philipsburg.htm |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20071117055926/http://www.blackloyalist.com/canadiandigitalcollection/story/revolution/philipsburg.htm |archive-date=November 17, 2007 |access-date=1 November 2020 |website=Black Loyalists: Our History, Our People |publisher=Canada's Digital Collections Program |ref=blackcancol |place=Industry Canada }} * History.org {{Cite web |last=Aron |first=Paul |year=2020 |orig-year=2005 |title=Women's Service with the Revolutionary Army : The Colonial Williamsburg Official History &amp; Citizenship Site |url=http://www.history.org/history/teaching/enewsletter/volume7/nov08/women_revarmy.cfm |access-date=October 2, 2020 |publisher=The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation |ref=womens2009 }} * Maryland State House {{Cite web |year=2007 |title=&quot;The Road to Peace, A Chronology: 1779–1784 |url=https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdstatehouse/html/road_peace.html |access-date=June 3, 2020 |publisher=William L. Clements Library / The Maryland State House |ref=clements2007 }} * The History Place {{Cite web |title=An Unlikely Victory 1777–1783 |url=https://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/revwar-77.htm |access-date=16 September 2020 |website=The History Place |quote=American Revolution timeline |ref=unlikelyvictory }} * Totallyhistory.com {{Cite web |year=2012 |title=Red Coats |url=http://totallyhistory.com/red-coats/ |access-date=March 23, 2020 |publisher=Totallyhistory.com |ref=redcoats2012 }} * U.S. Merchant Marine {{Cite web |year=2012 |title=Privateers and Mariners in the Revolutionary War |url=http://www.usmm.org/revolution.html |access-date=May 25, 2017 |publisher=U.S. Merchant Marine |ref=usmm2012 }} * U.S. National Archives {{Cite web |year=1783 |title=Continental Congress: Remarks on the Provisional Peace Treaty |url=https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Hamilton/01-03-02-0186#ARHN-01-03-02-0186-fn-0001 |access-date=July 15, 2020 |publisher=U.S. National Archives |ref=national }} * Valley Forge National Historic Park {{Cite web |date=12 August 2019 |orig-year=2007 |title=Overview of History and Significance of Valley Forge |url=https://www.nps.gov/vafo/learn/historyculture/valley-forge-history-and-significance.htm |website=Valley Forge National Historical Park, Pennsylvania |ref=vafo.nhp }} * Yale Law School, Massachusetts Act {{Cite web |year=2008 |title=Great Britain : Parliament – The Massachusetts Government Act; May 20, 1774 |url=https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/mass_gov_act.asp |publisher=Yale Law School: The Avalon Project |ref=yale'mga }} {{Refend}} ==Further reading== &lt;!-- Deny Citation Bot--&gt; {{Main|Bibliography of the American Revolutionary War|Bibliography of George Washington}} {{Refbegin|30em}} * Allison, David, and Larrie D. Ferreiro, eds. ''The American Revolution: A World War'' (Smithsonian, 2018) [https://www.amazon.com/American-Revolution-World-War/dp/1588346331/ excerpt] * {{Cite book |last=Bancroft |first=George |title=History of the United States of America, from the discovery of the American continent – eight volumes |year=1854–1878 |ref=none |author-link=George Bancroft}}&lt;br&gt;Volumes committed to the American Revolution: [https://archive.org/details/historyofuniteds07bancuoft Vol. 7]; [https://archive.org/details/historyofuniteds08bancuoft Vol. 8]; [https://archive.org/details/historyofuniteds09bancuoft Vol. 9]; [https://archive.org/details/historyofuniteds10bancuoft Vol. 10] * Bobrick, Benson. ''Angel in the Whirlwind: The Triumph of the American Revolution''. Penguin, 1998 (paperback reprint) * {{Cite book |last=British Army |url=https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001658143 |title=Proceedings of a Board of general officers of the British army at New York, 1781 |series=New-York Historical Society. Collections. The John Watts de Peyster publication fund series, no. 49 |date=1916 |publisher=New York Historical Society |quote=The board of inquiry was convened by Sir Henry Clinton into Army accounts and expenditures |ref=none |orig-year=7 August 1781 }} * {{Cite book |last=Burgoyne |first=John |url=https://archive.org/details/stateofexpeditio00burg |title=A state of the expedition from Canada : as laid before the House of commons |publisher=London : Printed for J. Almon |year=1780 |ref=none |author-link=John Burgoyne }} * {{Cite journal |last=Butterfield |first=Lyman H. |date=June 1950 |title=Psychological Warfare in 1776: The Jefferson-Franklin Plan to Cause Hessian Desertions |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/3143556 |journal=Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society |publisher=American Philosophical Society |volume=94 |pages=233–241 |jstor=3143556 |ref=none |number=3 }} * {{Cite book |last=Cate |first=Alan C. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=l24SiYu1AjgC |title=Founding Fighters: The Battlefield Leaders Who Made American Independence |publisher=Greenwood Publishing Group |year=2006 |isbn=0275987078 |ref=name }} * {{Cite book |last=Caughey |first=John W. |title=Bernardo de Gálvez in Louisiana 1776–1783 |publisher=Pelican Publishing Company |year=1998 |isbn=978-1565545175 |location=Gretna |ref=none}} * Chartrand, Rene. ''The French Army in the American War of Independence'' (1994). Short (48 pp), very well illustrated descriptions. * {{Cite book |last1=Christie |first1=Ian R. |title=Empire or independence, 1760–1776 |last2=Labaree |first2=Benjamin W. |publisher=Phaidon Press |year=1976 |isbn=978-0714816142 |ref=none}} * {{Cite book |last=Clarfield |first=Gerard |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=t-OhkgEACAAJ |title=United States Diplomatic History: From Revolution to Empire |publisher=Prentice-Hall |year=1992 |isbn=978-0130292322 |location=New Jersey |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Clode |first=Charles M. |url=https://archive.org/details/militaryforcesc00clodgoog/page/n7/mode/2up |title=The military forces of the crown; their administration and government |publisher=London, J. Murray |year=1869 |volume=2 |ref=none }} * [[Henry Steele Commager|Commager, Henry Steele]] and [[Richard B. Morris]], eds. ''The Spirit of 'Seventy-Six': The Story of the American Revolution as told by Participants''. (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1958). [https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.234145 online] * Conway, Stephen. ''The War of American Independence 1775–1783''. Publisher: E. Arnold, 1995. {{ISBN|0340625201}}. 280 pp. * {{Cite book |last=Creigh |first=Alfred |url=https://archive.org/details/historyofwashing00crei/page/49 |title=History of Washington County |publisher=B. Singerly |year=1871 |page=49 |quote=ann hupp indian. |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Cook |first=Fred J. |url=https://archive.org/details/whatmannerofmen001544mbp/page/n3/mode/2up |title=What Manner of Men |publisher=William Morrow and Co. |year=1959 |id=59-11702 |quote=Allan McLane, Chapter VIII, pp. 275–304 |ref=none }} * {{Cite journal |last=Davies |first=Wallace Evan |date=July 1939 |title=Privateering around Long Island during the Revolution |journal=New York History |publisher=Fenimore Art Museum |volume=20 |issue=3 |pages=283–294 |jstor=23134696 |ref=none}} * {{Cite book |last=Downes |first=Randolph C. |url=https://www.amazon.com/Council-Fires-Upper-Ohio-Narrative/dp/B07GH35VCG |title=Council Fires on the Upper Ohio: A Narrative of Indian Affairs in the Upper Ohio Valley until 1795 |publisher=University of Pittsburgh Press |year=1940 |isbn=0822952017 |location=Pittsburgh |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Duncan |first=Francis |url=https://archive.org/details/historyofroyalre02duncuoft |title=History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery |publisher=London: John Murray |year=1879 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Ferling |first=John E. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=lifQ0G0m9WwC&amp;q=lafayette |title=Setting the World Ablaze: Washington, Adams, Jefferson, and the American Revolution |publisher=Oxford University Press |year=2002 |isbn=978-0195134094 |ref=none |author-link=John E. Ferling |orig-year=2000 }} * {{cite book|last=Fleming|first=Thomas|title=The Perils of Peace |location=New York|publisher=The Dial Press|year=1970|isbn=978-0061139116}} * [[Eric Foner|Foner, Eric]], &quot;Whose Revolution?: The history of the United States' founding from below&quot; (review of [[Woody Holton]], ''Liberty Is Sweet: The Hidden History of the American Revolution'', Simon &amp; Schuster, 2021, 800 pp.), ''[[The Nation]]'', vol. 314, no. 8 (18–25 April 2022), pp.&amp;nbsp;32–37. Highlighted are the struggles and tragic fates of America's Indians and Black slaves. For example, &quot;In 1779 [George] Washington dispatched a contingent of soldiers to upstate New York to burn Indian towns and crops and seize hostages 'of every age and sex.' The following year, while serving as governor of Virginia, [Thomas] Jefferson ordered troops under the command of [[George Rogers Clark]] to enter the [[Ohio Valley]] and bring about the expulsion or 'extermination' of local Indians.&quot; (pp.&amp;nbsp;34–35.) * {{Cite book |last=Fortescue |first=John |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=1GlKAAAAYAAJ&amp;q=Bednore%201783&amp;pg=PA489 |title=A history of the British army |year=1902 |volume=3 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Fredriksen |first=John C. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=2ZIdNNZVDzgC |title=Revolutionary War Almanac Almanacs of American wars Facts on File library of American history. |publisher=Infobase Publishing |year=2006 |isbn=978-0816074686 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Freedman |first=Russell |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Ia5ivgAACAAJ |title=Washington at Valley Forge |date=2008 |publisher=Holiday House |isbn=978-0823420698 |ref=none }} * {{cite book|editor1-last=Fremont-Barnes|editor1-first=Gregory|editor2-last= Ryerson|editor2-first=Richard A|title=Encyclopedia of the American Revolutionary War: A Political, Social, and Military History|publisher=ABC-CLIO|year=2006|isbn=978-1851094080}} * {{cite book|last=Frey|first=Sylvia R|title=The British Soldier in America: A Social History of Military Life in the Revolutionary Period|publisher=University of Texas Press|year=1982|isbn=978-0292780408}} * {{Cite book |last=Gilbert |first=Alan |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=-c7-udZhrvgC |title=Black Patriots and Loyalists: Fighting for Emancipation in the War for Independence |publisher=University of Chicago Press |year=2012 |isbn=978-0226101552 |ref=none }} * {{Cite journal |last=Grant |first=John N. |year=1973 |title=Black Immigrants into Nova Scotia, 1776–1815 |journal=The Journal of Negro History |volume=58 |issue=3 |pages=253–270 |doi=10.2307/2716777 |jstor=2716777 |ref=none |s2cid=150064269}} * {{Cite book |last=Jensen |first=Merrill |title=The Founding of a Nation: A History of the American Revolution 1763–1776 |publisher=Hackett Publishing |year=2004 |isbn=978-0872207059 |ref=none}} * {{Cite book |last=Johnston |first=Henry Phelps |url=https://archive.org/details/yorktowncampaign00johnrich |title=The Yorktown Campaign and the Surrender of Cornwallis, 1781 |publisher=Harper &amp; Bros |year=1881 |location=New York |page=34 |oclc=426009 |ref=none }} * {{Cite journal |last=Hagist |first=Don N. |date=Winter 2011 |title=Unpublished Writings of Roger Lamb, Soldier of the American War of Independence |journal=Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research |publisher=Society for Army Historical Research |volume=89 |issue=360 |pages=280–290 |jstor=44232931 |ref=none}} * {{Cite journal |last=Kaplan |first=Rodger |date=January 1990 |title=The Hidden War: British Intelligence Operations during the American Revolution |journal=The William and Mary Quarterly |publisher=Omohundro Institute of Early American History and Culture |volume=47 |issue=1 |pages=115–138 |doi=10.2307/2938043 |jstor=2938043 |ref=none}} * {{Cite journal |last=Kepner |first=K. |date=February 1945 |title=A British View of the Siege of Charleston, 1776 |journal=The Journal of Southern History |publisher=Southern Historical Association |volume=11 |issue=1 |pages=93–103 |doi=10.2307/2197961 |jstor=2197961 |ref=none}} * {{Cite book |last1=Kilmeade |first1=Brian. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=S-8QE2uCbScC |title=George Washington's Secret Six: The Spy Ring That Saved the American Revolution |last2=Yaeger |first2=Don |publisher=Penguin Books |year=2013 |isbn=978-0698137653 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Knight |first=Peter |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=qMIDrggs8TsC&amp;pg=PA184 |title=Conspiracy Theories in American History: An Encyclopedia |publisher=ABC-CLIO |year=2003 |isbn=978-1576078129 |pages=184–185 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Kohn |first=George C. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=OIzreCGlHxIC |title=Dictionary of Wars |edition=3rd |publisher=Infobase Publishing |year=2006 |isbn=978-1438129167 |ref=none }} * Kwasny, Mark V. ''Washington's Partisan War, 1775–1783''. Kent, Ohio: 1996. {{ISBN|0873385462}}. Militia warfare. * {{Cite book |last=Larabee |first=Leonard Woods |title=Conservatism in Early American History |date=1959 |publisher=Cornell University Press |isbn=978-0151547456 |quote=Great Seal Books |ref=none}} * {{Cite book |last=Lemaître |first=Georges Édouard |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ZlxAFMQs4kYC&amp;pg=PA229 |title=Beaumarchais |publisher=Kessinger Publishing |year=2005 |isbn=978-1417985364 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Levy |first=Andrew |url=https://archive.org/details/firstemancipator0000levy/page/74 |title=The First Emancipator: Slavery, Religion, and the Quiet Revolution of Robert Carter |publisher=Random House Trade Paperbacks |year=2007 |isbn=978-0375761041 |page=[https://archive.org/details/firstemancipator0000levy/page/74 74] |ref=none }} * Library of Congress {{Cite web |last=&lt;!--Not stated--&gt; |title=Revolutionary War: Groping Toward Peace, 1781–1783 |url=https://www.loc.gov/teachers/classroommaterials/presentationsandactivities/presentations/timeline/amrev/peace/ |access-date=24 August 2020 |website=Library of Congress |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Lloyd |first=Earnest Marsh |url=https://archive.org/details/reviewofhistoryo00lloyrich |title=A review of the history of infantry |publisher=New York: Longmans, Green, and Co. |year=1908 |ref=none }} * May, Robin. ''The British Army in North America 1775–1783'' (1993). Short (48pp), very well illustrated descriptions. * {{Cite web |last=McGrath |first=Nick |title=Battle of Guilford Courthouse |url=http://www.mountvernon.org/digital-encyclopedia/article/battle-of-guilford-courthouse/ |access-date=January 26, 2017 |website=George Washington's Mount Vernon: Digital Encyclopedia |publisher=Mount Vernon Ladies' Association |ref=none }} * {{Cite journal |last=Middleton |first=Richard |date=July 2013 |title=The Clinton–Cornwallis Controversy and Responsibility for the British Surrender at Yorktown |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1468-229X.12014 |journal=[[History (journal)|History]] |publisher=Wiley Publishers |volume=98 |issue=3 |pages=370–389 |doi=10.1111/1468-229X.12014 |jstor=24429518 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Middleton |first=Richard |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=s9MFBAAAQBAJ |title=The War of American Independence, 1775–1783 |publisher=London: Pearson |year=2014 |isbn=978-0582229426 |ref=none |author-mask=2 }} * {{Cite book |last=Miller |first=Ken |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=UKZFDwAAQBAJ&amp;q=mercenaries |title=Dangerous Guests: Enemy Captives and Revolutionary Communities During the War for Independence |publisher=Cornell University Press |year=2014 |isbn=978-0801454943 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last1=Nash, Gary B. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=tyzmAJfLKs8C&amp;pg=PA64 |title=Atlas Of American History |last2=Carter Smith |publisher=Infobase Publishing |year=2007 |isbn=978-1438130132 |page=64 |ref=none }} * National Institute of Health {{Cite web |date=14 November 2016 |title=Scurvy |url=https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/10406/scurvy |access-date=1 October 2020 |publisher=National Institute of Health |quote=Genetic and Rare Diseases Information Center |ref=none |archive-date=January 26, 2017 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170126020402/https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/10406/scurvy |url-status=dead }} * Neimeyer, Charles Patrick. ''America Goes to War: A Social History of the Continental Army'' (1995) {{JSTOR|j.ctt9qg7q2}} * {{Cite book |last=Nicolas |first=Paul Harris |url=https://archive.org/details/historicalrecor00harrgoog/page/n167 |title=Historical record of the Royal Marine Forces, Volume 2 |publisher=Thomas and William Boone |year=1845 |location=London |quote=port praya suffren 1781. |ref=none }} * {{Cite web |last=Ortiz |first=J.D. |title=General Bernardo Galvez in the American Revolution |url=http://www.thecajuns.com/galvezrw.htm |access-date=9 September 2020 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Perkins |first=James Breck |url=https://archive.org/details/franceinamerican00perk |title=France in the American Revolution |date=2009 |publisher=Cornell University Library |asin=B002HMBV52 |ref=none |orig-year=1911 }} * {{Cite book |url=https://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&amp;fileName=008/llsl008.db&amp;recNum=21 |title=A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774–1875: Treaty of Alliance with France 1778, &quot;Article II&quot;. |publisher=Library of Congress archives |year=1846 |editor-last=Peters |editor-first=Richard |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Ramsay |first=David |url=https://archive.org/details/universalhistor03ramsgoog/page/n4/mode/2up |title=Universal History Americanised: Or, An Historical View of the World, from the Earliest Records to the Year 1808 |publisher=Philadelphia : M. Carey &amp; Son |year=1819 |volume=4 |ref=none |author-link=David Ramsay (historian) }} * {{Cite book |last=Reich |first=Jerome R. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ALDbuNPu_IQC&amp;q=Carlisle+Commission&amp;pg=PA121 |title=British friends of the American Revolution |publisher=M.E. Sharpe |year=1997 |isbn=978-0765631435 |page=121 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Ridpath |first=John Clark |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Y8lKAAAAYAAJ |title=The new complete history of the United States of America |publisher=Jones Brothers |year=1915 |volume=6 |location=Cincinnati |oclc=2140537 |ref=none }} * Royal Navy Museum {{Cite web |title=Ships Biscuits – Royal Navy hardtack |url=http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/info_sheet_ship_biscuit.htm |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20091031064002/http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/info_sheet_ship_biscuit.htm |archive-date=October 31, 2009 |access-date=January 14, 2010 |publisher=Royal Navy Museum |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Sawyer |first=C.W. |url=https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015004848258&amp;view=1up&amp;seq=9 |title=Firearms in American History |publisher=C.W. Sawyer |year=1910 |location=Boston |quote=online at Hathi Trust |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Schiff |first=Stacy |author-link=Stacy Schiff |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=1vhpYe99Tn4C&amp;pg=PT18 |title=A Great Improvisation: Franklin, France, and the Birth of America |publisher=Macmillan |year=2006 |isbn=978-1429907996 |page=5 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Scribner |first=Robert L. |title=Revolutionary Virginia, the Road to Independence |publisher=[[University of Virginia Press]] |year=1988 |isbn=978-0813907482 |ref=none}} * {{Cite book |last=Selig |first=Robert A. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ngEmGQAACAAJ |title=Rochambeau in Connecticut, Tracing His Journey: Historic and Architectural Survey |publisher=Connecticut Historical Commission |year=1999 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Smith |first=Merril D. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=yqxmCgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA374 |title=The World of the American Revolution: A Daily Life Encyclopedia |publisher=ABC-CLIO |year=2015 |isbn=978-1440830280 |page=374 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Southey |first=Robert |url=https://archive.org/details/lifeoflordnelson00sout_0/page/n2/mode/2up |title=The life of Lord Nelson |publisher=Henry Chapman Publishers |year=1831 |isbn=978-0665213304 |ref=none }} * Stoker, Donald, Kenneth J. Hagan, and Michael T. McMaster, eds. ''Strategy in the American War of Independence: a global approach'' (Routledge, 2009) [https://www.amazon.com/Strategy-American-War-Independence-Approach/dp/0415695686/ excerpt]. * Symonds, Craig L. ''A Battlefield Atlas of the American Revolution'' (1989), newly drawn maps emphasizing the movement of military units * {{Cite book |last=Trew |first=Peter |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=5XfxAAAAMAAJ |title=Rodney and the Breaking of the Line |publisher=Pen &amp; Sword Military |year=2006 |isbn=978-1844151431 |ref=none }} * {{Cite web |last=Trickey |first=Erick |title=The Little-Remembered Ally Who Helped America Win the Revolution |url=https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/little-remembered-ally-who-helped-america-win-revolution-180961782/ |access-date=April 28, 2020 |publisher=Smithsonian Magazine January 13, 2017 |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Turner |first=Frederick Jackson |url=https://archive.org/details/frontierinameric1920turn |title=The frontier in American history |publisher=New York: H. Holt and company |year=1920 |ref=turner1920 |author-link=Frederick Jackson Turner }} * {{Cite book |last=Volo |first=M. James |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=2gw8grU4NcoC |title=Blue Water Patriots: The American Revolution Afloat |publisher=Rowman &amp; Littlefield Publishers, Inc. |year=2006 |isbn=978-0742561205 |ref=none }} * U.S. Army, [http://history.army.mil/books/AMH-V1/ch04.htm &quot;The Winning of Independence, 1777–1783&quot;] ''American Military History'' Volume I, 2005. * U.S. National Park Service {{Cite web |date=April 25, 2013 |title=Springfield Armory |url=http://www.nps.gov/spar/historyculture/french-field_4pdr.htm |access-date=May 8, 2013 |publisher=Nps.gov |ref=none }} * {{Cite book |last=Weir |first=William |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=WEXj4gHHARgC&amp;pg=PA32 |title=The Encyclopedia of African American Military History |publisher=Prometheus Books |year=2004 |isbn=978-1615928316 |ref=none }} * {{Cite journal |last=Whaples |first=Robert |author-link=Robert Whaples |date=March 1995 |title=Where Is There Consensus Among American Economic Historians? The Results of a Survey on Forty Propositions |journal=[[The Journal of Economic History]] |volume=55 |issue=1 |page=144 |citeseerx=10.1.1.482.4975 |doi=10.1017/S0022050700040602 |jstor=2123771 |s2cid=145691938 |quote=There is an overwhelming consensus that Americans' economic standard of living on the eve of the Revolution was among the highest in the world. |ref=none}} * {{Cite journal |last=Whaples |first=Robert |author-link=Robert Whaples |date=March 1995 |title=Where Is There Consensus Among American Economic Historians? The Results of a Survey on Forty Propositions |journal=[[The Journal of Economic History]] |volume=55 |issue=1 |page=144 |citeseerx=10.1.1.482.4975 |doi=10.1017/S0022050700040602 |jstor=2123771 |s2cid=145691938 |quote=There is an overwhelming consensus that Americans' economic standard of living on the eve of the Revolution was among the highest in the world. |ref=none}} * {{cite book |last1=Wood |first1=Gordon |author-link=Gordon S. Wood |title=The Creation of the American Republic, 1776–1787 |date=1969 |publisher=Institute of Early American History and Culture |location=Williamsburg, VA |isbn=978-0393006445 |pages=653 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=GVfuAAAAMAAJ |ref=none }} * {{Cite web |last=Zeller-Frederick |first=Andrew A. |date=18 April 2018 |title=The Hessians Who Escaped Washington's Trap at Trenton |url=https://allthingsliberty.com/2018/04/the-hessians-who-escaped-washingtons-trap-at-trenton/ |website=Journal of the American Revolution |publisher=Bruce H. Franklin |quote=Citing William M. Dwyer and Edward J. Lowell, ''The Hessians: And the Other German Auxiliaries in the Revolutionary War'', 1970 |ref=none }} * Zlatich, Marko; Copeland, Peter. ''General Washington's Army (1): 1775–78'' (1994). Short (48pp), very well illustrated descriptions. * ——. ''General Washington's Army (2): 1779–83'' (1994). Short (48pp), very well illustrated descriptions. {{Refend}} == External links == {{Commons category}} {{Wiktionary|American Revolutionary War}} {{EB1911 poster|American War of Independence}} {{Spoken Wikipedia|date=2022-10-16|En-American_Revolutionary_War-article.ogg}} * [https://westpoint.edu/academics/academic-departments/history/american-revolution &quot;The American Revolutionary War&quot;] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230415155049/https://www.westpoint.edu/academics/academic-departments/history/american-revolution |date=April 15, 2023 }} at [[United States Military Academy]] * [https://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/revolution/home.html Library of Congress Guide to the American Revolution] * [https://web.archive.org/web/20130508072510/http://www.history.army.mil/reference/revbib/revwar.htm Bibliographies of the War of American Independence] compiled by the [[United States Army Center of Military History]] {{American Revolutionary War}} {{Continental Army}} {{American conflicts}} {{British colonial campaigns}} {{US history}} {{United States topics}} {{Portal bar|United States|Great Britain}} {{Authority control}} [[Category:American Revolutionary War| ]] [[Category:Conflicts in 1775]] [[Category:Conflicts in 1776]] [[Category:Conflicts in 1777]] [[Category:Conflicts in 1778]] [[Category:Conflicts in 1779]] [[Category:Conflicts in 1780]] [[Category:Conflicts in 1781]] [[Category:Conflicts in 1782]] [[Category:Conflicts in 1783]] [[Category:Civil wars in the United States]] [[Category:Global conflicts]] [[Category:Rebellions against the British Empire]] [[Category:Wars between the United Kingdom and the United States]] [[Category:Wars of independence]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=McPherson_College&diff=1259220973</id> <title>McPherson College</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=McPherson_College&diff=1259220973"/> <updated>2024-11-24T00:59:28Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: ce <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Brethren college in McPherson, Kansas, US}} {{Use dmy dates|date=February 2021}} {{confuse|McPherson University}} {{Infobox university | name = McPherson College | image = McPherson College logo.png | image_size = 250 | religious_affiliation = [[Church of the Brethren]] | established = {{start date and age|df=yes|1887}} | endowment = $1.59 billion (2023) | type = [[Private college]] | president = Michael Schneider | provost = Amanda Gutierrez (Executive Vice President) | city = [[McPherson, Kansas|McPherson]] | state = Kansas | country = United States&lt;ref name=&quot;GNIS&quot;&gt;[http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=gnispq:3:::NO::P3_FID:482717 GNIS] for McPherson College; [[USGS]]; 13 October 1978.&lt;/ref&gt; | undergrad = 811&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=McPherson College|url=https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/mcpherson-college-1933|work=US News}}&lt;/ref&gt; | campus = {{convert|23|acre}} | faculty = 40&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=McPherson College Faculty Directory|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/faculty.php|work=McPherson College|access-date=3 August 2012|archive-date=19 August 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120819103333/http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/faculty.php|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; | administrative_staff = 90&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=McPherson College Staff Directory|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/staff.php|work=McPheson College|access-date=3 August 2012|archive-date=16 July 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120716212251/http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/staff.php|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; | athletics_affiliations = [[National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics|NAIA]] | mascot = Ben the Bulldog | nickname = [[McPherson Bulldogs|Bulldogs]] | colors = Red and white&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |title=McPherson College Graphic Standards |url=http://www2.mcpherson.edu/logo/MC%20Graphic%20Standards.pdf |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160304060656/http://www2.mcpherson.edu/logo/MC%20Graphic%20Standards.pdf |archive-date=2016-03-04}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;br/&gt;{{college color boxes|McPherson Bulldogs}} | website = {{url|www.mcpherson.edu}} }} '''McPherson College''' is a [[private college]] associated with the [[Church of the Brethren]] and located in [[McPherson, Kansas]], United States. It was chartered in 1887 and is accredited by the [[Higher Learning Commission]]. ==History== [[File:Miller Library, McPherson College, McPherson, KS.JPG|thumb|left|Miller Library (2011)]] During their 1887 annual meeting, the Church of the Brethren recognized the need for a college west of the Mississippi River to serve the educational desires of settlers moving westward. The first academic semester opened on 5 September 1888, with 60 students and a faculty of seven. The dormitory, a single building which served as residence hall, college, and library had been constructed before the semester began. By the end of the first school year nearly 200 students had enrolled and the foundation had been laid for the main building. In 1898, Sharp Hall was completed, though it had been used for school purposes for some time while still incomplete. On 12 February 1898, the school was officially christened &quot;McPherson College.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Introduction – McPhearson College|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/about/MC_SelfStudyRpt_2005.pdf|access-date=2 November 2012|archive-date=14 January 2014|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140114082625/http://www.mcpherson.edu/about/MC_SelfStudyRpt_2005.pdf|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1926, [[J Willard Hershey]] synthesized one of the world's earliest [[Synthetic diamond|synthetic (man-made) diamonds]] on the McPherson College campus.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|pages=123–130 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=35eij1e1al8C&amp;pg=PA123|title=The Book of Diamonds: Their Curious Lore, Properties, Tests and Synthetic Manufacture|year=2004|author=J. Willard Hershey |publisher=Kessinger Publishing|isbn=1-4179-7715-9}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name = hershey&gt;{{cite book|author = J. Willard Hershey |title = Book of Diamonds|publisher = Heathside Press|isbn = 0-486-41816-2|year = 1940|pages = 127–132|url = http://www.farlang.com/diamonds/hershey-diamond-chapters/page_137|access-date = 14 August 2010|archive-date = 5 November 2012|archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20121105105920/http://www.farlang.com/diamonds/hershey-diamond-chapters/page_137|url-status = dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; One of the diamonds is on display at the [[McPherson Museum]] in McPherson, Kansas. There is some debate about the success of Hershey's experiments, with some researchers concluding that the diamonds were not true diamonds and others concluding that some of them were.&lt;ref&gt;O'Donoghue, Michael (ed.) ''Gems'', 6th edition, Elsevier, 2006, {{ISBN|0-7506-5856-8}}. p. 473&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last=Spear|first=Karl|title=Synthetic Diamond: Emerging CVD Science and Technology|year=1994|publisher=Wiley-Interscience|isbn=978-0471535898|pages=23|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=RR5HF25DB7UC&amp;q=Hershey+Diamond+Mcpherson&amp;pg=PA23}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1962, McPherson College became a charter member of [[Brethren Colleges Abroad]] (BCA).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=BCA Timeline|url=http://bcaabroad.com/pages.aspx?pid=341&amp;name=BCA-Timeline |work=BCA|access-date=3 August 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1976, local entrepreneur Gaines H. &quot;Smokey&quot; Billue, provided funds for the construction of Templeton Hall along with additional operating capital through the donation of a portion of his classic and antique car collection. This donation provided the spark to launch the Automotive Restoration Technology program at McPherson College. ''[[The Tonight Show]]'' host [[Jay Leno]] has been a financial supporter of the Automotive Restoration Technology program since 1997 and a member of the program's National Advisory Board since 1998.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal|last=Grady|first=Tina|title=Jay Leno scholarship helps prep future techs|journal=Automotive Body Repair News|date=1 August 2003|url=http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-426764141.html|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160415232220/https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-426764141.html|url-status=dead|archive-date=15 April 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; By the fall of 2010, McPherson College had the highest student fall enrollment in over 40 years.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/news/index.php?action=fullnews&amp;id=2137 |title=McPherson College Reaches Highest Enrollment Numbers in 40 Years |date=29 September 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; In November 2022, an anonymous donor promised to deliver $2 for every $1 raised by McPherson College up to a maximum gift of $500 million.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=$500 Million Endowment Match |url=https://www.mcpherson.edu/500match/ |website=McPherson College |access-date=November 7, 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221107060910/https://www.mcpherson.edu/500match/ |archive-date=November 7, 2022 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; By June 30th, the final day of the matching period, the college had secured $342 million in outside pledges which enable them to receive the full amount of the initial donation. The anonymous donor then pledged an additional $500 million estate gift to the college. This resulted in the McPherson endowment growing to $1.59 billion, making it one of the largest endowments of a small liberal arts college in the United States.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite press release |title=McPherson College Exceeds Double Match Challenge - Establishing A Future $1,500,000,000 Endowment |url=https://www.mcpherson.edu/2023/07/mcpherson-college-establishes-1-billion-endowment/ |access-date=22 August 2023 |work=McPherson College |date=21 July 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Palmer |first1=Kathryn |date=17 August 2023 |title=A Tiny Kansas College's Billion-Dollar Gift |url=https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/fundraising/2023/08/17/1b-gift-kansas-college-example-fundraising-success |access-date=22 August 2023 |work=[[Inside Higher Ed]] |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Stavola |first1=Michael |title=Second $500M pledge boosts Kansas college's total endowment to 'historic' $1.59 billion |url=https://www.kansas.com/news/local/education/article277532123.html |access-date=22 August 2023 |work=[[Wichita Eagle]] |date=21 July 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Maglione |first1=Francesca |title=Kansas College Nabs $1 Billion Gift From Anonymous Donor |url=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-21/anonymous-billion-dollar-donation-made-to-tiny-kansas-college |access-date=22 August 2023 |work=[[Bloomberg News]] |date=21 July 2023 |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Presidents=== McPherson College has been led by thirteen presidents and four interim presidents. {{div col|colwidth=30em}} *Soloman Z. Sharp – 1888–1896 *Charles E. Arnold – 1896–1902 *Edward Frantz – 1902–1910 *Samuel J. Miller (''acting'') – 1910–1911 *John A. Clement – 1911–1913 *Henry Jacob Harnly (''acting'') – 1913–1914 *Daniel W. Kurz – 1914–1927 *Vernon F. Schwalm – 1927–1941 *Woodford W. Peters – 1941–1950 *Desmond W. Bittinger – 1950–1965 *J. Jack Melhorn – 1965–1972 *Galen R. Snell – 1972–1976 *Paul W. Hoffman – 1976–1996 *Steven Gustafson (''interim'') – 1996–1997 *Gary A. Dill – 1997–2002 *Neil Thorburn (''interim'') – 2002–2003 *Ronald D. Hovis – 2003–2009 *Michael P. Schneider – 2009–present {{div col end}} ==Academics== McPherson College operates on a 4-1-4 (four-month semester&amp;mdash;January Session&amp;mdash;four-month semester) academic calendar. The present campus has sixteen major buildings on {{convert|23|acre}} of land. Three out of four of the faculty hold terminal degrees. Twenty three hold [[PhD]]s. All of the arts faculty hold the degree of [[Master of Fine Arts]] or higher. The remainder hold non-terminal degrees.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Faculty Directory|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/faculty.php|work=McPherson College|access-date=9 August 2012|archive-date=19 August 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120819103333/http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/faculty.php|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; McPherson College has a 13/1 student-faculty ratio.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=McPherson College|url=http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?id=155511|work=College Navigator|access-date=9 August 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; '''Freshman and Sophomore seminars''' Academic Community Essentials (known as ACE) is the name of McPherson's [[The First Year Experience Program|First Year Experience program]]. Freshmen must enroll in the course in both the fall and spring semesters of their first year. The goals for the course are for students to learn about college life, create a degree plan, and practice good study skills, critical thinking, and conflict resolution. &lt;ref name=&quot;Catalog 2012&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=Catalog 2012|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/academics/1112catalog.pdf|work=McPherson College|access-date=9 August 2012|archive-date=19 August 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120819103318/http://www.mcpherson.edu/academics/1112catalog.pdf|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; Sophomores must enroll in one semester of Sophomore Seminar. The course goals for sophomores include completing a service project, developing a career plan, and exploring internship options.&lt;ref name=&quot;Catalog 2012&quot;/&gt; ===Automotive Restoration Technology=== McPherson College offers the only four-year Bachelor of Science degree in Automotive Restoration Technology in the United States.&lt;ref name=&quot;Brock&quot;&gt;{{cite journal|last=Brock |first=Fred|title=A Curriculum in Classics With a 4-Wheel Degree|journal=The New York Times|date=11 June 2006|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/automobiles/collectibles/11SCHOOL.html?pagewanted=print|access-date=3 August 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; The program focuses on the complete restoration of valuable, classic, and antique automobiles built from 1886 to 1970. The restoration technical disciplines include research, documentation, automotive history, historical design, technical drawing and CAD, metal shaping, welding, body and paint, engine rebuilding, machining, applied diagnostics, chassis rebuilding, drivetrain rebuilding, final assembly, electricity and electronics, technical woodworking, materials engineering, foundry, and trim and upholstery. The courses are conducted at Templeton Hall, a {{convert|33,000|sqft}} facility, which houses a combination of traditional classrooms and large work spaces including a metals lab, trim and upholstery lab, wood lab, machine lab, engines lab, chassis lab, assembly lab, paint lab, foundry, and motorcycle lab.&lt;ref name=&quot;Brock&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Templeton Hall|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/academics/auto_templeton.php|work=McPherson College|access-date=3 August 2012|archive-date=1 February 2013|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130201022717/http://www.mcpherson.edu/academics/auto_templeton.php|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; There are eight scholarships offered exclusively to Automotive Restoration students.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Automotive Restoration Scholarships|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/academics/auto_scholarships.php|work=McPherson College|access-date=3 August 2012|archive-date=26 August 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120826090012/http://www.mcpherson.edu/academics/auto_scholarships.php|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; The most famous are the Fred Duesenberg Memorial Scholarship endowed by [[Jay Leno]] and Peter Heydon, and the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance Scholarship in honor of [[Phil Hill]] endowed by the Pebble Beach Company Foundation and [[Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Host Leno financing scholarship for student mechanics|url=https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1291&amp;dat=19970406&amp;id=0TxUAAAAIBAJ&amp;pg=4412,955886|access-date=3 August 2012|newspaper=Boca Raton News|date=6 April 1997}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance and Pebble Beach Company Foundation Name First Recipients of Phil Hill Scholarships|url=http://www.pebblebeachconcours.net/pages/4665/Pebble_Beach_Concours_d%E2%80%99Elegance_and_Pebble_Beach_Company_Foundation_Name_First_Recipients_of_Phil_Hill_Scholarships.htm|work=Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance|access-date=3 August 2012|archive-date=21 August 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110821025406/http://www.pebblebeachconcours.net/pages/4665/Pebble_Beach_Concours_d%E2%80%99Elegance_and_Pebble_Beach_Company_Foundation_Name_First_Recipients_of_Phil_Hill_Scholarships.htm|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Entrepreneurship program=== McPherson College recently added an interdisciplinary entrepreneurship program. The slogan for the program is &quot;Freedom to Jump&quot; and was developed by students in a communication course.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=&quot;Jumping&quot; to New Ideas|url=http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/07/05/mcpherson_college_sees_entrepreneurship_push_as_a_way_to_set_itself_apart|access-date=4 August 2012|newspaper=Inside Higher Ed|date=5 July 2011}}&lt;/ref&gt; The program has four different components.&lt;ref name=&quot;Entrepreneurship&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=Entrepreneurship|url=http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/entrepreneurship/|work=McPherson College|access-date=4 August 2012|archive-date=27 August 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120827224729/http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/entrepreneurship/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; The program is led by the Vice President for Entrepreneurship and Innovation.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=MC Hires First Director of Entrepreneurship|url=http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/entrepreneurship/2011/07/mc-hires-first-director-of-entrepreneurship/|work=McPherson College|access-date=4 August 2012|archive-date=14 September 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110914015419/http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/entrepreneurship/2011/07/mc-hires-first-director-of-entrepreneurship/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Administration Directory |url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/administration.php |work=McPherson College |access-date=4 August 2012 |archive-date=13 August 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120813022002/http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/administration.php |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Marin|first=Robert|title=Anonymous gift to help fund new initiative at McPherson College|url=http://articles.kwch.com/2011-04-07/anonymous-gift_29395050|access-date=4 August 2012|newspaper=KWCH 12 Eyewitness News|date=7 April 2011}}{{Dead link|date=November 2023 |bot=InternetArchiveBot |fix-attempted=yes }}&lt;/ref&gt; '''Transformative Entrepreneurship Minor''' Students in any major may take the Transformative Entrepreneurship Minor. Coursework for the minor is completed in four departments: Entrepreneurship, Humanities, Social Sciences, and Science &amp; Technology.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Transformative Entrepreneurship Minor|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/academics/entrepreneur_minor.php|work=McPherson College|access-date=4 August 2012|archive-date=26 August 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120826153827/http://www.mcpherson.edu/academics/entrepreneur_minor.php|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; '''Global Enterprise Challenge''' Students have the option to form teams and compete in the Global Enterprise Challenge. Teams create a plan to meet a need in a country that is selected and announced each fall. The students present their plans to a committee of faculty members. The winning team travels to the country the following summer.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Global Enterprise Challenge Guidelines|url=http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/entrepreneurship/global-enterprise-challenge/guidelines/|work=McPherson College|access-date=4 August 2012|archive-date=15 September 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110915144055/http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/entrepreneurship/global-enterprise-challenge/guidelines/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2011 the Challenge country was Haiti and in 2012 it was Panama.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Global Enterprise Challenge Returns from Haiti with Global Perspective, New Relationship s|url=http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/entrepreneurship/2011/06/global-enterprise-challenge-returns-from-haiti-with-global-perspective-new-relationships/|work=McPherson College|access-date=4 August 2012|archive-date=13 September 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110913074159/http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/entrepreneurship/2011/06/global-enterprise-challenge-returns-from-haiti-with-global-perspective-new-relationships/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=McPherson College Global Enterprise Challenge Team Forges Panama Possibilities|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/news/index.php?action=fullnews&amp;id=2271|work=McPherson College|access-date=4 August 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; '''Horizon and Opportunity Funds''' McPherson College has two grant funds to support entrepreneurial projects by students, faculty, and staff. Students apply to the Horizon Fund and faculty and staff to the Opportunity Fund.&lt;ref name=&quot;Entrepreneurship&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=McPherson College Entrepreneurship Program is Fostering Hope!|url=http://theinternview.com/intern-leadership/entrepreneurs-intern2incharge/mcpherson-college-entrepreneurship-program-fosters-hope/|work=The InternView|access-date=4 August 2012|archive-date=4 June 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120604222237/http://theinternview.com/intern-leadership/entrepreneurs-intern2incharge/mcpherson-college-entrepreneurship-program-fosters-hope/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; Winning student plans have included a campus community garden, college prep summer camp for middle school students, a sundry and snack shop on campus, a baking business, and a photography studio specializing in photos of vintage cars.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Horizon Fund Wraps Up Second Year|url=http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/entrepreneurship/2012/04/horizon-fund-wraps-up-second-year-with-success/|work=McPherson College|access-date=4 August 2012|archive-date=28 August 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120828020344/http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/entrepreneurship/2012/04/horizon-fund-wraps-up-second-year-with-success/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; '''Jump Start Kansas''' McPherson College offers entrepreneurship grants and scholarships for high school students in Kansas. Students compete by presenting plans to a committee of faculty and administration members. There are two winners, one in the category of commercial projects and one in the category of social projects.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Jump Start Kansas|url=http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/entrepreneurship/jump-start-kansas/|work=McPherson College|access-date=4 August 2012|archive-date=29 August 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120829222216/http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/entrepreneurship/jump-start-kansas/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Recycled Steel Water Bottle Business, Information Website for Teens Win $5,000 Grants in Jump Start Kansas|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/news/index.php?action=fullnews&amp;id=2240|work=McPherson College|access-date=4 August 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Milwaukee Center=== The college operates a satellite in [[Milwaukee, Wisconsin]]. The Milwaukee Center offers short courses which are designed for K-12 educators who already have a bachelor's degree.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Milwaukee Center|url=http://milwaukee.mcpherson.edu/|work=McPherson College|access-date=8 August 2012|archive-date=30 August 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120830021318/http://milwaukee.mcpherson.edu/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Graduate courses in education=== In the fall of 2012, McPherson College started offering graduate courses in education. This program is designed to become the foundation for a master's degree in the Arts of Teaching and is pending accreditation from the [[Higher Learning Commission]]. As of the fall of 2012, three regional school districts had endorsed the graduate courses for their teachers.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=First Graduate Courses in Education at McPherson College Starting Fall of 2012|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/news/index.php?action=fullnews&amp;id=2248|work=McPherson College|access-date=8 August 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; The program requires 35 credit hours of requirements and electives.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Course List|url=http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/mastersed/courses/|work=McPherson College|access-date=8 August 2012|archive-date=31 March 2013|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130331023332/http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/mastersed/courses/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; Through a partnership agreement, these courses may also be used toward the Educational Leadership program at Fort Hays State University.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Pracht|first=Adam|title=Mac College signs graduate course agreement with FHSU|url=http://www.mcphersonsentinel.com/news/education/x970405348/Mac-College-signs-graduate-course-agreement-with-FHSU|access-date=8 August 2012|newspaper=McPherson Sentinel|date=11 July 2012}}{{Dead link|date=November 2023 |bot=InternetArchiveBot |fix-attempted=yes }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=McPherson College Names Director for First Graduate Program in Education|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/news/index.php?action=fullnews&amp;id=2190|work=McPherson College|access-date=8 August 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Athletics== {{Main|McPherson Bulldogs}} The McPherson athletic teams are called the Bulldogs. The college is a member of the [[National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics]] (NAIA), primarily competing in the [[Kansas Collegiate Athletic Conference]] (KCAC) since the 1902–03 academic year. Their athletic team colors are red and white, with black being used as a complementary color in logos and uniforms. McPherson competes in 18 intercollegiate varsity sports: Men's sports include baseball, basketball, cross country, football, soccer, tennis and track &amp; field; while women's sports include basketball, cross country, soccer, softball, tennis, track &amp; field and volleyball; and co-ed sports include competitive cheer, competitive dance and shotgun sports. ==Campus== The college's campus is located on the east side of the city of McPherson. There are five instructional buildings and two administration buildings. Miller Library serves the entire campus population and houses the college archives, academic support services and career services.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Miller Library|url=http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/library/|work=McPherson College|access-date=8 August 2012|archive-date=27 August 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120827235715/http://blogs.mcpherson.edu/library/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; Students living on campus live in one of the seven residential halls. There are two male dormitories, one female dormitory, and one co-ed dormitory. In addition, there are two co-ed apartment style dormitories.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Directory|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/|work=McPherson College|access-date=8 August 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; Hoffman Student Union houses the dining hall, bookstore, and mail center.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Hoffman Student Union|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/facilities/hoffman.php|work=McPherson College|access-date=8 August 2012|archive-date=13 September 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110913155126/http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/facilities/hoffman.php|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Sports Center contains all of the coaches' offices and locker rooms.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Sports Center|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/facilities/sport.php|work=McPherson College|access-date=8 August 2012|archive-date=13 September 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110913143128/http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/facilities/sport.php|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; Outdoor field sports are played at McPherson Stadium.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=McPherson Stadium|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/facilities/stadium.php|work=McPherson College|access-date=8 August 2012|archive-date=13 September 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110913120817/http://www.mcpherson.edu/directory/facilities/stadium.php|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the summer of 2012 the stadium was renovated and two large practice fields were added to the campus.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Mac College plans expansion, renovation of stadium|url=http://www.macbulldogs.com/news/2012/2/14/FB_0214124642.aspx?path=football |work=McPherson Bulldogs|access-date=8 August 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=New Practice Facilities for McPherson College |url=http://www.macbulldogs.com/news/2012/6/11/FB_0611124334.aspx?path=football|work=McPherson|access-date=8 August 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Student life== In 2022 there were 810 students enrolled in McPherson College. The population is 64% male and 36% female. Among the student body, 63% identify as white and 28% identify as minorities. The majority of the students (95%) are considered traditional. Students from Kansas constitute 44%, out of state are 51%. The 1% of international students come from six countries.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=McPherson College |url=http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?id=155511#enrolmt|work=College Navigator|access-date=9 August 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Student Government Association is led by a president and chief of staff. There are representatives elected from each academic year and each of the residence halls.&lt;ref name=&quot;Student Services&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=Student Services|url=http://www.mcpherson.edu/students/clubs.php|work=McPherson College|access-date=9 August 2012|archive-date=29 August 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120829124909/http://www.mcpherson.edu/students/clubs.php|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Notable alumni and faculty== * [[Jonathan Coachman]], former [[ESPN]] personality, former All Conference KCAC Basketball player. Former WWE announcer * [[Harvey Harlow Nininger]], class of 1914, American [[meteorite]] collector, self-taught [[meteorologist]], [[educator]], considered by many today to be the &quot;father of modern meteoritics&quot; * [[Duane Earl Pope]], convicted bank robber and murderer. Briefly on the FBI 10 Most Wanted List * [[Harry Stine (businessman)|Harry Stine]], billionaire businessman and the founder and owner of [[Stine Seed]] ==References== {{Reflist}} ==Further reading== * ''McPherson College: The First Century''; Cynthia Mines; McPherson College, 1987. * [https://archive.org/details/historyofchurcho00crai ''A History of the Church of the Brethren in Kansas''] (includes McPherson College history); Elmer LeRoy Craik; McPherson Daily; Republican Press; 397 pages; 1922. ==External links== * {{Official website|http://www.mcpherson.edu}} * [http://macbulldogs.com McPherson Athletics website] {{Colleges and universities in Kansas}} {{Kansas Collegiate Athletic Conference navbox}} {{Authority control}} {{Coord|38|22|18|N|97|38|32|W|type:edu_region:US-KS_scale:10000|display=title}} [[Category:McPherson College| ]] [[Category:Education in McPherson County, Kansas]] [[Category:Universities and colleges affiliated with the Church of the Brethren]] [[Category:Universities and colleges established in 1887]] [[Category:Non-profit organizations based in Kansas]] [[Category:Buildings and structures in McPherson County, Kansas]] [[Category:1887 establishments in Kansas]] [[Category:Populated places established in 1887]] [[Category:Private universities and colleges in Kansas]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=McPherson,_Kansas&diff=1259219850</id> <title>McPherson, Kansas</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=McPherson,_Kansas&diff=1259219850"/> <updated>2024-11-24T00:50:56Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: trim <hr /> <div>{{Short description|City in McPherson County, Kansas}} {{Use mdy dates|date=July 2023}} {{Infobox settlement &lt;!-- Basic info --&gt; |name = McPherson, Kansas |settlement_type = [[City]] and [[County seat]] &lt;!-- Images --&gt; |image_skyline = McPherson Sculpture.jpg |image_caption = Sculpture of [[James B. McPherson]] (2004) |image_flag = |image_seal = &lt;!-- Maps --&gt; |image_map = McPherson_County_Kansas_Incorporated_and_Unincorporated_areas_McPherson_Highlighted.svg |map_caption = Location within [[McPherson County, Kansas|McPherson County]] and [[Kansas]] |image_map1 = Map of McPherson Co, Ks, USA.png |map_caption1 = [[Kansas Department of Transportation|KDOT]] map of [[McPherson County, Kansas|McPherson County]] ([[:File:Kansas official transportation map legend.png|legend]]) &lt;!-- Location --&gt; |coordinates_footnotes = &lt;ref name=&quot;GNIS&quot;/&gt; |coordinates = {{coord|38|22|17|N|97|39|38|W|region:US-KS_type:city|display=inline,title}} |subdivision_type = [[List of sovereign states|Country]] |subdivision_name = United States |subdivision_type1 = [[U.S. state|State]] |subdivision_name1 = [[Kansas]] |subdivision_type2 = [[List of counties in Kansas|County]] |subdivision_name2 = [[McPherson County, Kansas|McPherson]] |subdivision_type3 = [[List of townships in Kansas|Township]] |subdivision_name3 = &lt;!-- Established --&gt; |established_title = Founded |established_date = 1870 |established_title1 = [[Platted]] |established_date1 = |established_title2 = [[Municipal corporation|Incorporated]] |established_date2 = 1874 |named_for = [[James B. McPherson]] &lt;!-- Government --&gt; |government_footnotes = |government_type = &lt;!-- [[Mayor–council government|Mayor–Council]] --&gt; |leader_title = [[Mayor]] |leader_name = &lt;!-- Area --&gt; |area_footnotes = &lt;ref name=&quot;CenPopGazetteer2019&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=2019 U.S. Gazetteer Files|url=https://www2.census.gov/geo/docs/maps-data/data/gazetteer/2019_Gazetteer/2019_gaz_place_20.txt|publisher=United States Census Bureau|access-date=July 24, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; |area_total_sq_mi = 7.48 |area_land_sq_mi = 7.43 |area_water_sq_mi = 0.05 |area_total_km2 = 19.38 |area_land_km2 = 19.25 |area_water_km2 = 0.13 |unit_pref = Imperial &lt;!-- Elevation --&gt; |elevation_footnotes = &lt;ref name=&quot;GNIS&quot;/&gt; |elevation_ft = 1493 &lt;!-- Population --&gt; |population_footnotes = &lt;ref name=&quot;Census-2020-Profile&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Census-2020-QF&quot;/&gt; |population_as_of = [[2020 United States census|2020]] |population_total = 14082 |pop_est_footnotes = |pop_est_as_of = |population_est = |population_density_sq_mi = auto |population_density_km2 = auto &lt;!-- General information --&gt; |timezone = [[Central Time Zone|CST]] |utc_offset = -6 |timezone_DST = CDT |utc_offset_DST = -5 |postal_code_type = [[ZIP code]] |postal_code = 67460 |area_code_type = [[North American Numbering Plan|Area code]] |area_code = [[Area code 620|620]] |blank_name = [[Federal Information Processing Standard|FIPS code]] |blank_info = 20-43950 |blank1_name = [[Geographic Names Information System|GNIS ID]] |blank1_info = 485617&lt;ref name=&quot;GNIS&quot;&gt;{{GNIS|485617}}&lt;/ref&gt; |website = {{URL|https://www.mcphersonks.org/|mcphersonks.org}} }} '''McPherson''' ({{IPAc-en|m|ə|k|ˈ|f|ɜr|s|ən}} {{respell|mək|FUR|sən}}) is a city in and the [[county seat]] of [[McPherson County, Kansas]], United States.&lt;ref name=&quot;GNIS&quot;/&gt; As of the [[2020 United States census|2020 census]], the population of the city was 14,082.&lt;ref name=&quot;Census-2020-Profile&quot;&gt;{{cite web |title=Profile of McPherson, Kansas in 2020 |url=https://data.census.gov/cedsci/profile?g=1600000US2043950 |publisher=United States Census Bureau |access-date=November 12, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211112134057/https://data.census.gov/cedsci/profile?g=1600000US2043950 |archive-date=November 12, 2021 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Census-2020-QF&quot;&gt;{{cite web |title=QuickFacts; McPherson, Kansas; Population, Census, 2020 &amp; 2010 |url=https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/mcphersoncitykansas/POP010220 |publisher=United States Census Bureau |access-date=August 25, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210825101631/https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/mcphersoncitykansas/POP010220 |archive-date=August 25, 2021 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; The city is named after [[Union (American Civil War)|Union]] General [[James Birdseye McPherson]], a [[American Civil War|Civil War]] general.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book | url=https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_5zdAAQAAMAAJ | title=Biennial Report of the Board of Directors of the Kansas State Historical Society | publisher=Kansas State Printing Plant | author=Kansas State Historical Society | year=1916 | pages=[https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_5zdAAQAAMAAJ/page/n338 231]}}&lt;/ref&gt; It is home to [[McPherson College]] and [[Central Christian College of Kansas|Central Christian College]]. ==History== {{See also|History of Kansas}} ===19th century=== [[File:Stouffer's Railroad Map of Kansas 1915-1918 McPherson County.png|thumb|left|1915 Railroad Map of [[McPherson County, Kansas|McPherson County]]]] For millennia, the land now known as Kansas was inhabited by [[Native Americans in the United States|Native Americans]]. In 1803, most of [[History of Kansas|modern Kansas]] was secured by the United States as part of the [[Louisiana Purchase]]. In 1854, the [[Kansas Territory]] was organized, then in 1861 [[Kansas]] became the 34th [[U.S. state]]. In 1867, [[McPherson County, Kansas|McPherson County]] was founded. '''McPherson''' was founded in 1870 by the twelve members of the McPherson Town Company.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web | title = First Biennial Report of the State Board of Agriculture to the Legislature of the State of Kansas, for the Years 1877-8 | publisher = Rand, McNally, and Co. | url = http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/archives/1878/mcpherson.shtml | url-status = dead | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20090210090718/http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/archives/1878/mcpherson.shtml | archive-date = 2009-02-10 }}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1887, city officials began a failed attempt to have the community named the state capital. The first post office in McPherson was established in 1873.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web | url=http://www.kshs.org/geog/geog_postoffices/search/page:2/county:MP | title=Kansas Post Offices, 1828-1961, page 2 | publisher=Kansas Historical Society | access-date=14 June 2014}}&lt;/ref&gt; McPherson was incorporated as a city in 1874.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book | url=https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_Qi9cXyTWt9EC | title=Kansas: A Cyclopedia of State History, Volume 2 | publisher=Standard Publishing Company | author=Blackmar, Frank Wilson | year=1912 | pages=[https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_Qi9cXyTWt9EC/page/n195 205]}}&lt;/ref&gt; As early as 1875, city leaders of [[Marion, Kansas|Marion]] held a meeting to consider a branch railroad from [[Florence, Kansas|Florence]]. In 1878, [[Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway]] and parties from [[Marion County, Kansas|Marion County]] and [[McPherson County, Kansas|McPherson County]] chartered the [[Marion and McPherson Railway Company]].&lt;ref name=&quot;MarionCountyBook&quot;&gt;''Marion County Kansas : Past and Present''; Sondra Van Meter; MB Publishing House; [[LCCN]] 72-92041; 344 pages; 1972.&lt;/ref&gt; In 1879, a branch line was built from [[Florence, Kansas|Florence]] to McPherson. In 1880 it was extended to [[Lyons, Kansas|Lyons]] and in 1881 it was extended to [[Ellinwood, Kansas|Ellinwood]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ZIwpAAAAYAAJ|title=Annual Report of the Board of Railroad Commissioners, for the Year Ending ...|first=Kansas Board of Railroad|last=Commissioners|date=5 April 1886|publisher=Kansas Publishing House: T.D. Thacher, state printer|access-date=5 April 2018|via=Google Books}}&lt;/ref&gt; The line was leased and operated by the [[Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway]]. The line from [[Florence, Kansas|Florence]] to [[Marion, Kansas|Marion]], was abandoned in 1968.&lt;ref name=&quot;Abandon Railway 1968&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.abandonedrails.com/Marion_to_Florence|title=Abandoned Rails: Lyons to Florence|website=www.abandonedrails.com|access-date=5 April 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1992, the line from [[Marion, Kansas|Marion]] to McPherson was sold to [[Central Kansas Railway]]. In 1993, after heavy flood damage, the line from Marion to McPherson was abandoned. The original branch line connected [[Florence, Kansas|Florence]], [[Marion, Kansas|Marion]], [[Canada, Kansas|Canada]], [[Hillsboro, Kansas|Hillsboro]], [[Lehigh, Kansas|Lehigh]], [[Canton, Kansas|Canton]], [[Galva, Kansas|Galva]], McPherson, [[Conway, Kansas|Conway]], [[Windom, Kansas|Windom]], [[Little River, Kansas|Little River]], [[Mitchell, Kansas|Mitchell]], [[Lyons, Kansas|Lyons]], [[Chase, Kansas|Chase]], [[Ellinwood, Kansas|Ellinwood]]. In 1887, the [[Chicago, Kansas and Nebraska Railway]] built a main line from [[Herington, Kansas|Herington]] through McPherson to [[Pratt, Kansas|Pratt]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Rock Island Rail History&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://home.covad.net/~scicoatnsew/rihist4.htm|title=Rock Island's Family Tree - Page 4|website=home.covad.net|access-date=5 April 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110723055808/http://home.covad.net/~scicoatnsew/rihist4.htm|archive-date=23 July 2011|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1888, this line was extended to [[Liberal, Kansas|Liberal]]. Later, it was extended to [[Tucumcari, New Mexico]] and [[El Paso, Texas]]. It foreclosed in 1891 and taken over by [[Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific Railway]], which shut down in 1980 and reorganized as [[Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas Railroad]], merged in 1988 with [[Missouri Pacific Railroad]], merged in 1997 with [[Union Pacific Railroad]]. Most locals still refer to this railroad as the &quot;Rock Island&quot;. By 1888, the community was at the junction of four railroad lines. Major industries have included a large flour mill, an insurance company headquarters, and an [[oil]] refinery. ===20th century=== [[Image:Union Hotel, McPherson Kansas.JPG|thumb|left|McPherson Union Hotel, 1907 postcard]] The [[National Old Trails Road]], also known as the Ocean-to-Ocean Highway, was established in 1912, and was routed through [[Windom, Kansas|Windom]], [[Conway, Kansas|Conway]] and McPherson. In the 1930s, the local refinery sponsored the [[McPherson Globe Refiners]] basketball team ([[Amateur Athletic Union|AAU]]). They were coached by [[Gene Johnson (basketball)|Gene Johnson]], former head coach of Wichita University (now [[Wichita State University]]). The Refiners were best known for their tall centers, [[Joe Fortenberry]] (6–8) and [[Willard Schmidt (basketball)|Willard Schmidt]] (6–9) and their fast-break style of play. Billed as &quot;The Tallest Team in the World&quot;, the Refiners often held their opponents to low scores because of the centers' ability to deflect shots on the way to the basket in what today would be called goaltending.{{citation needed|date=February 2010}} Coach Johnson was one of the innovators of the fast break and full-court press. The Refiners won the AAU national championship in 1936 against the Hollywood Universal team. This earned them the right to compete for the first ever [[Basketball at the 1936 Summer Olympics|USA Olympic basketball team]] in 1936. Hollywood Universal narrowly beat the Refiners at [[Madison Square Garden]] and the USA team was composed of both Universal and Refiners players and one college student. Coach Johnson was selected to be the assistant coach. After a long journey by boat to Europe, the team played in alternating squads at the Olympics. The Refiners' portion of the team took the court to defeat Canada 19–8 in the gold medal game on August 14, 1936, at the [[1936 Summer Olympics|Summer Olympics]]. The Refiners' home court is now the McPherson Community Building at 121 East Marlin and can be toured by contacting the local Convention and Visitors Bureau. A mural in honor of the Refiners was completed in 2010 at the intersection of Kansas and Ash, south of their home court in preparation for the 75th anniversary celebration of their victory in 2011.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.mcphersonsentinel.com/newsnow/x684373693/Globe-Refiners-mural-dedicated|title=Globe Refiners mural dedicated - The McPherson Sentinel - November 16, 2010|website=mcphersonsentinel.com|access-date=5 April 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Geography== According to the [[United States Census Bureau]], the city has a total area of {{convert|7.23|sqmi|sqkm|2}}, of which {{convert|7.18|sqmi|sqkm|2}} is land and {{convert|0.05|sqmi|sqkm|2}} is water.&lt;ref name=&quot;Gazetteer files&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=US Gazetteer files 2010|url=https://www.census.gov/geo/www/gazetteer/files/Gaz_places_national.txt|publisher=[[United States Census Bureau]]|access-date=2012-07-06|url-status=dead|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120125061959/http://www.census.gov/geo/www/gazetteer/files/Gaz_places_national.txt|archive-date=2012-01-25}}&lt;/ref&gt; The community is located on [[U.S. Route 56]], just west of [[Interstate 135]]. McPherson is part of the [[Little Arkansas River]] Watershed that ultimately empties into the [[Arkansas River]] in [[Wichita, Kansas|Wichita]]. Dry Turkey Creek is a wet weather stream that composes several enhanced lakes within the city limits. It feeds the Lakeside Park Lagoon before crossing under East Euclid Street and Kansas Avenue, where it then forms Wall Park Lake. South and west of town are four units of the reclaimed [[McPherson Valley Wetlands]], acquired and managed by [[Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks]], [[Ducks Unlimited]], and the [[U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service]]. Prior to 1880, this natural wetlands was an important waterfowl and wildlife habitat second only to [[Cheyenne Bottoms]] in importance to migratory bird populations. These wetlands continue to see improvement and development. ===Climate=== The climate in this area is characterized by hot, humid summers and generally mild to cool winters. According to the [[Köppen Climate Classification]] system, McPherson has a [[humid subtropical climate]], abbreviated &quot;Cfa&quot; on climate maps.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather-summary.php3?s=77357&amp;cityname=McPherson,+Kansas,+United+States+of+America&amp;units=|title=McPherson, Kansas Köppen Climate Classification (Weatherbase)|website=Weatherbase|access-date=5 April 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; {{Weather box |location = McPherson, Kansas, 1991–2020 normals, extremes 1893–present |single line = Yes |Jan record high F = 79 |Feb record high F = 83 |Mar record high F = 94 |Apr record high F = 99 |May record high F = 106 |Jun record high F = 114 |Jul record high F = 117 |Aug record high F = 117 |Sep record high F = 109 |Oct record high F = 98 |Nov record high F = 89 |Dec record high F = 81 |Jan avg record high F = 64.7 |Feb avg record high F = 69.7 |Mar avg record high F = 79.6 |Apr avg record high F = 85.9 |May avg record high F = 92.5 |Jun avg record high F = 98.0 |Jul avg record high F = 103.3 |Aug avg record high F = 101.7 |Sep avg record high F = 97.2 |Oct avg record high F = 88.8 |Nov avg record high F = 75.2 |Dec avg record high F = 64.2 |year avg record high F = 104.6 |Jan high F = 42.4 |Feb high F = 47.2 |Mar high F = 57.6 |Apr high F = 67.1 |May high F = 77.0 |Jun high F = 87.9 |Jul high F = 92.8 |Aug high F = 90.7 |Sep high F = 83.3 |Oct high F = 70.6 |Nov high F = 56.3 |Dec high F = 44.3 |year high F = |Jan mean F = 30.7 |Feb mean F = 34.6 |Mar mean F = 44.4 |Apr mean F = 53.9 |May mean F = 64.7 |Jun mean F = 75.6 |Jul mean F = 80.6 |Aug mean F = 78.5 |Sep mean F = 70.4 |Oct mean F = 57.5 |Nov mean F = 43.8 |Dec mean F = 33.3 |year mean F = |Jan low F = 19.0 |Feb low F = 22.0 |Mar low F = 31.3 |Apr low F = 40.6 |May low F = 52.3 |Jun low F = 63.4 |Jul low F = 68.3 |Aug low F = 66.3 |Sep low F = 57.6 |Oct low F = 44.4 |Nov low F = 31.4 |Dec low F = 22.2 |year low F = |Jan avg record low F = 2.5 |Feb avg record low F = 5.8 |Mar avg record low F = 15.1 |Apr avg record low F = 26.4 |May avg record low F = 37.6 |Jun avg record low F = 52.4 |Jul avg record low F = 58.4 |Aug avg record low F = 56.0 |Sep avg record low F = 43.0 |Oct avg record low F = 27.2 |Nov avg record low F = 15.7 |Dec avg record low F = 7.0 |year avg record low F = -3.0 |Jan record low F = -22 |Feb record low F = -22 |Mar record low F = -11 |Apr record low F = 9 |May record low F = 22 |Jun record low F = 32 |Jul record low F = 47 |Aug record low F = 43 |Sep record low F = 27 |Oct record low F = 12 |Nov record low F = -3 |Dec record low F = -21 |precipitation colour = green |Jan precipitation inch = 0.90 |Feb precipitation inch = 1.22 |Mar precipitation inch = 2.35 |Apr precipitation inch = 2.98 |May precipitation inch = 5.42 |Jun precipitation inch = 4.75 |Jul precipitation inch = 4.19 |Aug precipitation inch = 3.51 |Sep precipitation inch = 2.97 |Oct precipitation inch = 2.44 |Nov precipitation inch = 1.56 |Dec precipitation inch = 1.29 |year precipitation inch = |unit precipitation days = 0.01 in |Jan precipitation days = 4.2 |Feb precipitation days = 4.7 |Mar precipitation days = 7.0 |Apr precipitation days = 8.7 |May precipitation days = 10.9 |Jun precipitation days = 9.4 |Jul precipitation days = 8.9 |Aug precipitation days = 8.4 |Sep precipitation days = 6.9 |Oct precipitation days = 6.7 |Nov precipitation days = 4.8 |Dec precipitation days = 4.9 |Jan snow inch = 4.1 |Feb snow inch = 3.3 |Mar snow inch = 2.6 |Apr snow inch = 0.6 |May snow inch = 0.0 |Jun snow inch = 0.0 |Jul snow inch = 0.0 |Aug snow inch = 0.0 |Sep snow inch = 0.0 |Oct snow inch = 0.1 |Nov snow inch = 0.6 |Dec snow inch = 2.9 |year snow inch = |unit snow days = 0.1 in |Jan snow days = 2.6 |Feb snow days = 2.0 |Mar snow days = 1.0 |Apr snow days = 0.2 |May snow days = 0.0 |Jun snow days = 0.0 |Jul snow days = 0.0 |Aug snow days = 0.0 |Sep snow days = 0.0 |Oct snow days = 0.1 |Nov snow days = 0.3 |Dec snow days = 2.0 |Jan snow depth inch = |Feb snow depth inch = |Mar snow depth inch = |Apr snow depth inch = |May snow depth inch = |Jun snow depth inch = |Jul snow depth inch = |Aug snow depth inch = |Sep snow depth inch = |Oct snow depth inch = |Nov snow depth inch = |Dec snow depth inch = |year snow depth inch = |source 1 = NOAA&lt;ref name = NOAA&gt; {{cite web |url = https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/access/services/data/v1?dataset=normals-monthly-1991-2020&amp;stations=USC00145152&amp;format=pdf&amp;dataTypes=MLY-TMAX-NORMAL,MLY-TMIN-NORMAL,MLY-TAVG-NORMAL,MLY-PRCP-NORMAL,MLY-SNOW-NORMAL |publisher = National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration |title = U.S. Climate Normals Quick Access – Station: McPherson, KS |access-date = November 26, 2023 }} &lt;/ref&gt; |source 2 = National Weather Service&lt;ref name = NOWData&gt; {{cite web |url = https://www.weather.gov/wrh/climate?wfo=ict |publisher = National Weather Service |title = NOAA Online Weather Data – NWS Wichita |access-date = November 26, 2023 }} &lt;/ref&gt; }} ==Demographics== {{US Census population |align = |1880 = 1590 |1890 = 3172 |1900 = 2996 |1910 = 3546 |1920 = 4595 |1930 = 6147 |1940 = 7194 |1950 = 8689 |1960 = 9996 |1970 = 10851 |1980 = 11753 |1990 = 12422 |2000 = 13770 |2010 = 13155 |2020 = 14082 |estyear = |estimate = |estref = |align-fn = center |footnote = [https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/decennial-census.html U.S. Decennial Census]&lt;br /&gt;2010-2020&lt;ref name=&quot;Census-2020-QF&quot;/&gt; }} [[Image:McPherson Opera House.jpg|thumb|right|McPherson Opera House (2004)]] The [[2020 United States census]] counted 14,082 people, 5,645 households, and 3,495 families in McPherson.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table P16: HOUSEHOLD TYPE |url=https://data.census.gov/table?q=McPherson%20city,%20Kansas%20p16&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=:0 /&gt; The population density was {{convert|1,891.7|/mi2|/km2}}. There were 6,221 housing units at an average density of {{convert|835.7|/mi2|/km2|disp=preunit|units&amp;nbsp;|units|}}.&lt;ref name=:0&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table DP1: PROFILE OF GENERAL POPULATION AND HOUSING CHARACTERISTICS |url=https://data.census.gov/table/DECENNIALDP2020.DP1?q=McPherson%20city,%20Kansas%20dp1 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Gazetteer Files |url=https://www.census.gov/geographies/reference-files/2020/geo/gazetter-file.html |access-date=2023-12-30 |website=Census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; The racial makeup was 85.0% (11,970) [[White (U.S. Census)|white]] or [[European American]] (83.11% [[Non-Hispanic White|non-Hispanic white]]), 2.29% (322) [[African American (U.S. Census)|black]] or [[African American|African-American]], 0.82% (116) [[Native American (U.S. Census)|Native American]] or [[Alaska Native]], 1.29% (182) [[Asian (U.S. Census)|Asian]], 0.06% (8) [[Pacific Islander (U.S. Census)|Pacific Islander]] or [[Native Hawaiian]], 3.19% (449) from [[Race (United States Census)|other races]], and 7.35% (1,035) from [[Multiracial Americans|two or more races]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table P1: RACE |url=https://data.census.gov/table/DECENNIALPL2020.P1?q=McPherson%20city,%20Kansas%20p1&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Hispanic (U.S. Census)|Hispanic]] or [[Latino (U.S. Census)|Latino]] of any race was 7.48% (1,053) of the population.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table P2: HISPANIC OR LATINO, AND NOT HISPANIC OR LATINO BY RACE |url=https://data.census.gov/table/DECENNIALPL2020.P2?q=McPherson%20city,%20Kansas%20p2&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; Of the 5,645 households, 28.1% had children under the age of 18; 47.9% were married couples living together; 26.0% had a female householder with no spouse or partner present. 32.5% of households consisted of individuals and 13.1% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older.&lt;ref name=:0 /&gt; The average household size was 2.1 and the average family size was 2.6.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table S1101: HOUSEHOLDS AND FAMILIES |url=https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST5Y2020.S1101?q=McPherson%20city,%20Kansas%20s1101%20&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; The percent of those with a bachelor's degree or higher was estimated to be 18.4% of the population.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table S1501: EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT |url=https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST5Y2020.S1501?q=McPherson%20city,%20Kansas%20s1501%20&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; 22.6% of the population was under the age of 18, 12.7% from 18 to 24, 24.1% from 25 to 44, 22.3% from 45 to 64, and 18.3% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 37.2 years. For every 100 females, there were 99.2 males.&lt;ref name=:0 /&gt; For every 100 females ages 18 and older, there were 100.8 males.&lt;ref name=:0 /&gt; The 2016-2020 5-year [[American Community Survey]] estimates show that the median household income was $57,931 (with a margin of error of +/- $6,181) and the median family income was $69,846 (+/- $6,510).&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table S1903: MEDIAN INCOME IN THE PAST 12 MONTHS (IN 2020 INFLATION-ADJUSTED DOLLARS) |url=https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST5Y2020.S1903?q=McPherson%20city,%20Kansas%20s1903%20&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; Males had a median income of $38,465 (+/- $4,682) versus $26,149 (+/- $1,423) for females. The median income for those above 16 years old was $32,004 (+/- $2,858).&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table S2001: EARNINGS IN THE PAST 12 MONTHS (IN 2020 INFLATION-ADJUSTED DOLLARS) |url=https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST5Y2020.S2001?q=McPherson%20city,%20Kansas%20s2001%20&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; Approximately, 4.8% of families and 10.8% of the population were below the [[poverty line]], including 7.9% of those under the age of 18 and 9.3% of those ages 65 or over.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table S1701: POVERTY STATUS IN THE PAST 12 MONTHS |url=https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST5Y2020.S1701?q=McPherson%20city,%20Kansas%20s1701%20&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=US Census Bureau, Table S1702: POVERTY STATUS IN THE PAST 12 MONTHS OF FAMILIES |url=https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST5Y2020.S1702?q=McPherson%20city,%20Kansas%20s1702&amp;y=2020 |access-date=2024-01-03 |website=data.census.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Area events== * Scottish Festival &amp; Highland Games were held on the fourth weekend of September of each year. They are discontinued as of 2017.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.mcphersonsentinel.com/news/20170128/festival-of-cultures-discontinued|title=Festival of Cultures discontinued|first=Josh|last=Arnett|website=mcphersonsentinel.com|access-date=5 April 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Education== [[McPherson College]] and [[Central Christian College of Kansas|Central Christian College]] are located in McPherson. The community is served by [[McPherson USD 418]] public school district. USD 418 has an Early Childhood center, four elementary schools (Eisenhower, Lincoln, Rosevelt, Washington), McPherson Middle School and McPherson High School. McPherson's mascot is the Bullpups.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.mcpherson.com/418|title=USD 418|website=mcpherson.com|access-date=5 April 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160103051027/http://www.mcpherson.com/418/|archive-date=3 January 2016|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[http://www3.ksde.org/eddir/usd_map.pdf Kansas School District Boundary Map] {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110721071446/http://www3.ksde.org/eddir/usd_map.pdf |date=2011-07-21 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Additionally, private school options are available at St. Joseph Catholic Church &amp; School, serving students through sixth grade.&lt;ref&gt;[https://stjosephmcpherson.com/school St. Joseph Catholic School McPherson, Kansas]&lt;/ref&gt; ==Transportation== McPherson was located on the [[National Old Trails Road]], also known as the Ocean-to-Ocean Highway, that was established in 1912. Bus service is provided daily towards [[Wichita, Kansas|Wichita]] and [[Salina, Kansas|Salina]] by BeeLine Express (subcontractor of [[Greyhound Lines]]).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.beeline-express.com/|title=Beeline Express|website=beeline-express.com|access-date=5 April 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.greyhound.com/|title=Home|website=greyhound.com|access-date=5 April 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190906232014/https://www.greyhound.com/|archive-date=6 September 2019|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Media== McPherson has a daily [[newspaper]], ''[[McPherson Sentinel|The McPherson Sentinel]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web | title = About this Newspaper: The McPherson sentinel | work = Chronicling America | publisher = [[Library of Congress]] | url = http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85031128/ | access-date = 2009-10-05}}&lt;/ref&gt; and a weekly newspaper, ''The McPherson Weekly News'',&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=McPherson Weekly News – CherryRoad Media |url=http://www.mcphersonweeklynews.com |access-date=2023-04-05 |website=www.mcphersonweeklynews.com |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; The following [[radio station]]s are [[city of license|licensed]] to McPherson: * 1540 [[KNGL]]: [[Talk radio]] * 96.7 [[KMPK]]: [[Adult contemporary music|Adult contemporary]] ==Notable people== &lt;!--- Please list only people who have spent a significant amount of time in McPherson. If the individual's tie is ''only'' as a college student, they should be listed in the college article. ---&gt; {{See also|McPherson_College#Notable_alumni_and_faculty||l1=List of McPherson College people}} * [[V. John Krehbiel]], Ambassador to Finland * [[Anna Larkin]], folk sculptor, lived in McPherson for many years until her death.&lt;ref name=&quot;grassrootsart.net&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.grassrootsart.net/Art/KansasArtEnvironments/Larkin_Anna.html|title=Anna Larkin|access-date=5 February 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; * [[George Magerkurth]], Major League Baseball umpire, born in McPherson. * [[Sue Raney]], jazz singer * [[Brad Underwood]], basketball coach at [[University of Illinois]], McPherson native. ==See also== {{Portal|Kansas}} * [[List of people from McPherson County, Kansas]] * [[National Register of Historic Places listings in McPherson County, Kansas]] * [[Santa Fe Trail]] * [[National Old Trails Road]] * [[Threshing stone|Threshing Stone]] * [[List of oil pipelines]] * [[List of oil refineries]] ==References== {{Reflist}} ==Further reading== {{Kansas books}} {{See also|McPherson County, Kansas#Further reading|l1=List of books about McPherson County, Kansas}} {{See also|Santa Fe Trail#Further reading|l1=List of books about Santa Fe Trail}} * ''McPherson, Kansas: Past and Present, Progress and Prosperity''; Freeman Publishing Co. * ''McPherson at Fifty - A Kansas Community in 1920s''; Raymond L. Flory; McPherson College; 1970. * ''Diamond Jubilee McPherson, 1872-1947: Pioneer Days in McPherson''; Jessie Hill Rowland; 1947. * [https://archive.org/details/historyofchurcho00crai ''A History of the Church of the Brethren in Kansas''] (includes McPherson College history); Elmer LeRoy Craik; McPherson Daily; Republican Press; 397 pages; 1922. * ''Major General James B. McPherson Monument Unveiling''; Alex S. Hendry; 1917. * ''Our Railroad''; McPherson Independent; September 25, 1879. ==External links== {{Commons category|McPherson, Kansas}} * {{Official website|https://www.mcphersonks.org/|McPherson - Official}} * [https://www.lkm.org/members/?id=41260878 McPherson - Directory of Public Officials], League of Kansas Municipalities * [https://www.mcphersonchamber.org/ McPherson – Chamber of Commerce] * [http://specialcollections.wichita.edu/kw/towns.asp?town=McPherson&amp;county=McPherson Historic Images of McPherson], Special Photo Collections at [[Wichita State University]] Library * {{YouTube|D5LFSrcRTrM|All Schools Day - A McPherson Tradition}}, from ''Hatteberg's People'' on [[KAKE]] TV news * [https://www.ksdot.org/Assets/wwwksdotorg/bureaus/burTransPlan/maps/city-pdf/mcpherson.pdf McPherson city map], KDOT {{McPherson County, Kansas}} {{Kansas}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Mcpherson, Kansas}} [[Category:Cities in Kansas]] [[Category:County seats in Kansas]] [[Category:Cities in McPherson County, Kansas]] [[Category:Micropolitan areas of Kansas]] [[Category:Populated places established in 1872]] [[Category:1872 establishments in Kansas]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_Fakhri&diff=1259219150</id> <title>Michael Fakhri</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_Fakhri&diff=1259219150"/> <updated>2024-11-24T00:45:30Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: offices <hr /> <div>{{Short description|United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food}} {{Infobox officeholder|image=File:Michael_Fakhiri_(2022)_(cropped).jpg|office=United Nations [[Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food]]|term_start=2020|occupation=professor, [[University of Oregon]]|alma_mater=[[Queen's University at Kingston]]}} '''Michael Fakhri''' is the United Nations [[Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food]] and an associate professor of Law and the [[University of Oregon]]. Fakhri was appointed to his position as Special Rapporteur by the UN [[Human Rights Council]] and assumed his functions on May 1, 2020.&lt;ref name=&quot;un bio&quot;&gt;{{cite web |title=Mr. Michael Fakhri Special Rapporteur on the right to food |url=https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures/sr-food/mr-michael-fakhri |website=United Nations Human Rights office of the high commissioner |publisher=United Nations |access-date=29 March 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; he served as an independent advisor to the UN summit on food systems but was critical of its effectiveness.&lt;ref name=&quot;un summit&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=Fakhri |first1=Michael |date= |title=The UN summit on food systems took two years to plan. It's offered nothing to help feed families |url=https://www.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2021/sep/23/un-summit-food-systems-families-michael-fakhri |access-date=29 March 2024 |work=The Guardian |agency=The Guardian}}&lt;/ref&gt; Fakhri called on the government of [[Venezuela]] to develop a robust plan to address hunger and malnutrition and for an end to the economic sanctions imposed on the country.&lt;ref name=&quot;venezuela&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=CANO |first1=REGINA GARCIA |date= |title=UN-backed food expert calls on Venezuela to tackle hunger and urges end to economic sanctions |url=https://apnews.com/article/venezuela-food-insecurity-hunger-malnutrition-un-maduro-afb4af4978c09cf0f3e54e1cfef981b5 |access-date=29 March 2024 |publisher=AP |work=AP News}}&lt;/ref&gt; He believes that [[Israel]] is deliberately starving [[Palestinians]] in [[Gaza Strip|Gaza]] saying &quot;In my view as a UN human rights expert, this is now a situation of genocide.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;gaza&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=Lakhani |first1=Nina |date= |title=Israel is deliberately starving Palestinians, UN rights expert says |url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/27/un-israel-food-starvation-palestinians-war-crime-genocide |access-date=29 March 2024 |work=The Guardian }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==References== {{reflist}} {{authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Fakhri, Michael}} [[Category:United Nations officials]] [[Category:Place of birth missing (living people)]] [[Category:Year of birth missing (living people)]] [[Category:Living people]] [[Category:University of Oregon School of Law faculty]] [[Category:University of Toronto alumni]] [[Category:Queen's University Faculty of Law alumni]] [[Category:University of Western Ontario alumni]] [[Category:Harvard Law School alumni]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baker_University&diff=1259218558</id> <title>Baker University</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baker_University&diff=1259218558"/> <updated>2024-11-24T00:40:39Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: ce <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Private university in Baldwin City, Kansas, U.S.}} {{Recentism|date=October 2024}} {{Infobox university |name = Baker University |image = Baker University crest.png |image_upright = 0.6 |established = {{Start date and age|1858}} |type = [[Private university]] |president = Lynne Murray |religious_affiliation = [[United Methodist Church]] |city = [[Baldwin City, Kansas|Baldwin City]] |state = Kansas |country = United States |campus = {{convert|10|acres|km2}} |students = 3,076 (Fall 2014)&lt;ref name=&quot;Enrollment&quot;&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.ncahlc.org/component/com_directory/Action,ShowBasic/Itemid,/instid,1266/|title=Higher Learning Commission |work=ncahlc.org}}&lt;/ref&gt; |undergrad = 1,897 (Fall 2014)&lt;ref name=&quot;Enrollment&quot;/&gt; |postgrad = 1,179 (Fall 2014)&lt;ref name=&quot;Enrollment&quot;/&gt; |sports_nickname = [[Baker Wildcats|Wildcats]] |colors = Orange&lt;br /&gt;{{color box|#fe5a1d}} |athletics_affiliations= [[National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics|NAIA]] – [[Heart of America Athletic Conference|HAAC]] |website = {{URL|www.bakeru.edu}} |logo = Baker University wordmark.png |logo_size = 250 }} '''Baker University''' is a [[private university]] in [[Baldwin City, Kansas]], United States. Founded in 1858, it was the first four-year university in Kansas and is affiliated with the [[United Methodist Church]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.bakeru.edu/student-life/spiritual-life |title=Spiritual Life |publisher=Bakeru.edu |date=2014-07-01 |access-date=2015-08-08}}&lt;/ref&gt; Baker University is made up of four schools. The College of Arts and Sciences and the undergraduate courses in the School of Education (SOE) are located on the campus in Baldwin City. The School of Professional and Graduate Studies (SPGS) and the graduate branch of the SOE serve nontraditional students on campuses in [[Overland Park, Kansas]], and online. The School of Nursing, which is operated in partnership with Stormont Vail Health in Topeka, offers a Bachelor of Science in nursing (BSN) and an online Master of Science in nursing (MSN).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.bakeru.edu/bc-admission/programs |title=Academic Programs |publisher=Bakeru.edu |access-date=2015-08-08 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150811063146/http://www.bakeru.edu/bc-admission/programs |archive-date=2015-08-11 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Enrollment in all four schools has grown to a student population more than 3,000, with about 900 students on the Baldwin City campus. ==History== [[File:IMAG1954.jpg|thumb|The Clarice L. Osborne Memorial Chapel was moved stone by stone from the village of Sproxton, England, to serve as the spiritual center of the university. The chapel was dedicated at Baker in 1996 by Lady Margaret Thatcher, former British prime minister, whose father had preached in the building.]] [[File:Old Castle Museum.JPG|thumb|Old Castle Hall, built in 1857–58 as the original home of Baker University]] [[Image:Parmenter Hall.JPG|thumb|Parmenter Hall, the most recognizable building on Baker's main campus.]] [[File:Baker Offense.JPG|thumb|Baker Wildcats football team (white uniforms)]] [[File:Baker Pep Squad.JPG|thumb|Baker pep squad leading cheers at a game]] Baker University was founded in 1858 and named for [[Osman Cleander Baker]], a [[Methodist Episcopal]] biblical scholar and bishop. The school{{em dash}}which is the oldest, continually operating institution of higher learning in the state{{em dash}}was the first four-year university in Kansas and funds were raised by local donations and donors from the East. Baker's first president, Werter R. Davis, a minister and Civil War officer, served from 1858 to 1862. The original campus building, now known as Old Castle Museum, houses a museum of the university and Baldwin City.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|editor1-last=Blackmar|editor1-first=Frank|title=Kansas: A Cyclopedia of State History, Embracing Events, Institutions, Industries, Counties, Cities, Towns, Prominent Persons, Etc.|date=1912|publisher=Standard Publishing Company|chapter-url=http://www.ksgenweb.com/archives/1912/b/baker_university.html|chapter=Baker University|pages=129{{en dash}}32|access-date=2017-09-30|archive-date=2016-04-27|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160427141133/http://ksgenweb.com/archives/1912/b/baker_university.html|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Old Castle Museum|url=https://www.bakeru.edu/old-castle-museum/|publisher=Baker University|access-date=September 30, 2017|date=2016-06-03}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Athletics == {{main|Baker Wildcats}} The Baker athletic teams are called the Wildcats. The university is a member of the [[National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics]] (NAIA), primarily competing as a founding member of the [[Heart of America Athletic Conference]] (HAAC) since its inception in the 1971–72 academic year. The Wildcats previously competed in the [[Kansas Collegiate Athletic Conference]] (KCAC) from 1902–03 to 1970–71. Baker competes in 26 intercollegiate varsity sports: Men's sports include baseball, basketball, bowling, cross country, football, golf, soccer, tennis, track &amp; field and wrestling; while women's sports include basketball, bowling, cross country, golf, soccer, softball, tennis, track &amp; field, volleyball, flag football and wrestling; and co-ed sports includes cheerleading, dance and eSports. Baker was one of the first NAIA schools to take part in the Champions of Character program, which emphasizes respect, servant leadership, integrity, sportsmanship and responsibility. Since 1978 women have been competing in intercollegiate sports at Baker. ===Colors=== Baker has only one official color: cadmium orange. The only other school in the country to have orange as their only official color is [[Syracuse University]]. ===Campus life=== ===Residential life=== Baker University has three residence halls and two apartment buildings for students living on campus. Gessner Hall provides suite style living arrangements for 152 male residents. It was built in 1966, and the building was renovated in 2012. Irwin Hall provides suite style living arrangements for 150 female residents. The newest residence hall is the New Living Center, which houses 190 students in 48 rooms. The New Living Center is the largest on campus, with three stories and six wings totaling 52,000 square feet.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://signal.baldwincity.com/news/2008/jul/25/new_baker_residence_hall_ready_students_return/?print |title=New Baker residence hall ready for students to return |work=Signal.baldwincity.com |date=2008-07-25 |access-date=2015-08-08}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.thebakerorange.com/news/2012/aug/20/gessner-hall-renovations-completed |title=Gessner Hall renovations completed |work=The Baker Orange |date=2012-08-20 |access-date=2015-08-08}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Fraternities and sororities=== Greek life at Baker University began in 1865. Seven students founded a Phi Gamma Delta house. Additional students were initiated over the next couple years, but the fraternity was short-lived at Baker.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.phigam.org/b9-pages/about/history/deltadeuteron |title=Phi Gamma Delta |website=Phigam.org |date=1931-01-01 |access-date=2015-08-08}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;''The Phi Gamma Delta'', Volume 30, Issue 3. December 1907. p 218.&lt;/ref&gt; Today, there are several fraternities and sororities on campus. ==Notable people== ===Alumni=== [[File:Case Hall.JPG|thumb|right|Case Hall, a Carnegie library (2009)]] &lt;!-- NOTE: THIS SECTION NEEDS TO BE SPLIT, ONE FOR ALUMNI AND ANOTHER FOR FACULTY --&gt; *[[Beulah Armstrong]] (1895–1965) – American mathematician *[[James Percy Ault]] – geophysicist, oceanographer, and captain of a research vessel *[[Edith Bideau]] – singer, music educator *[[Joseph Little Bristow|Joseph Bristow]] – [[U.S. senator]] from Kansas, 1909–1915 *[[Andrew Cherng]] – [[Panda Express]] founder *[[Nellie Cline Steenson]] – member of the [[Kansas House of Representatives]], Member of the [[Idaho House of Representatives]] and member of the [[Idaho Senate]] *[[Don Wendell Holter|Don Holter]] – bishop *[[Mike Gardner (football coach)|Mike Gardner]] – head football coach at [[Tabor College (Kansas)|Tabor College]] and [[Malone University|formerly at Malone University]] *[[Jennie Murray Kemp]] – temperance reformer *[[Janette Hill Knox]] – temperance reformer, suffragist, teacher, author *[[George LaFrance]] – [[Arena Football League Hall of Fame]] member *[[Kevin Mahogany]] – singer *[[Andrew Long]] – educator *[[Mike McCarthy]] – [[Dallas Cowboys]] head coach. Winning coach of [[Super Bowl XLV]] *[[Homer A. McCrerey|Homer McCrerey]] – Naval officer and &quot;[[bioneer]]&quot;-ing [[oceanographer]] *[[Candice Millard]] – class of 1989, writer, journalist, former writer and editor for ''[[National Geographic (magazine)|National Geographic]]'', author of three books *[[Vidal Nuño]] – pitcher for the New York Yankees, Arizona Diamondbacks and Seattle Mariners *[[Tanner Purdum]] – [[New York Jets]] long snapper *[[William Alfred Quayle|William Quayle]] – American bishop of the Methodist Church, elected in 1908 *[[Dewey Short]] – U.S. House of Representatives (MO), 1929–1931; 1935–1957 *[[Bennett Jones Sims|Bennett Sims]] – sixth bishop of the [[Episcopal Diocese of Atlanta]] consecrated as Diocesan [[Bishop]] in 1972 *[[Patrick Tubach]] – class of 1996, Academy Award nominee, best visual effects, ''Star Trek Into Darkness'' *[[Philip P. Campbell]] – class of 1888, [[U.S. congressman]] from Kansas, 1903–1923 *[[Ernest Eugene Sykes]] – class of 1888, prominent businessman and [[Freemason]] from [[New Orleans]] &lt;!-- *** INSTRUCTIONS FOR NOTABLE PEOPLE SECTIONS *** When you add a name in this section, it's YOUR responsibility to ensure all of the following for each person: 1) Insert person into list sorted by class year and/or last name (surname). 2) Each person MUST meet [[Wikipedia:Bio]] requirements to ensure notability (see [[Wikipedia:Notability]]). 3) Each person MUST meet [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]] requirements to verify their notability and prove they attended the school. 4) If the person has a Wikipedia article, then wikilink the persons name to the correct wikipedia article, otherwise add citation reference(s) to prove notability and attended the school (see [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]]). *** END OF INSTRUCTIONS *** --&gt; ===Faculty=== *[[Phog Allen]] – collegiate basketball coach at Baker University, the [[University of Central Missouri]] and the [[University of Kansas]] *[[Emil S. Liston]] – basketball coach and administrator *[[John Clark Ridpath]] – educator and historian *[[William M. Runyan]] – preacher and songwriter &lt;!-- *** INSTRUCTIONS FOR NOTABLE PEOPLE SECTIONS *** When you add a name in this section, it's YOUR responsibility to ensure all of the following for each person: 1) Insert person into list sorted by class year and/or last name (surname). 2) Each person MUST meet [[Wikipedia:Bio]] requirements to ensure notability (see [[Wikipedia:Notability]]). 3) Each person MUST meet [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]] requirements to verify their notability and prove they attended the school. 4) If the person has a Wikipedia article, then wikilink the persons name to the correct wikipedia article, otherwise add citation reference(s) to prove notability and attended the school (see [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]]). *** END OF INSTRUCTIONS *** --&gt; ==References== {{Reflist}} == External links == {{Commons category|Baker University}} {{Portal|Kansas|Education}} * {{Official website}} * [http://www.bakerwildcats.com Baker athletics website] {{Heart of America Athletic Conference navbox}} {{Colleges and universities in Kansas}} {{Education in Douglas County, Kansas}} {{MethodistColleges}} {{Authority control}} {{Coord|38|46|39|N|95|11|16|W|format=dms|display=title|type:edu_region:US-KS}} [[Category:Baker University| ]] [[Category:Private universities and colleges in Kansas]] [[Category:Education in Douglas County, Kansas]] [[Category:Universities and colleges established in 1858]] [[Category:Buildings and structures in Douglas County, Kansas]] [[Category:1858 establishments in Kansas Territory]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard_Speck&diff=1259218062</id> <title>Richard Speck</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard_Speck&diff=1259218062"/> <updated>2024-11-24T00:36:47Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: Restored revision 1257579351 by GA-RT-22 (talk): See MOS:GEOLINK <hr /> <div>{{short description|American mass murderer (1941–1991)}} {{Use mdy dates|date=November 2023}} {{Infobox criminal | name = Richard Speck | image_name = Richard Speck cropped.jpg | image_caption = [[Mug shot]] of Speck, 1961 | birth_name = Richard Benjamin Speck | birth_date = {{Birth date|mf=yes|1941|12|6}} | birth_place = [[Kirkwood, Illinois]], U.S. | death_date = {{Death date and age|mf=yes|1991|12|5|1941|12|6}} | death_place = [[Joliet, Illinois]], U.S. | alias = Richard Franklin Lindbergh | motive = {{flatlist| * [[wikt:sadism|Sadism]] * [[Witness|Eyewitness elimination]] * [[Rape]] (Gloria Davy)&lt;ref&gt;''The Encyclopedia of Mass Murder'', {{ISBN|0-747-20897-2}} p. 270&lt;/ref&gt; }} | conviction_penalty = [[Capital punishment|Death]]; commuted to 100 to 300 years imprisonment | spouse = {{marriage|Shirley Malone|1962|1966|end=div.}} | children = 1 | apprehended = July 17, 1966 | victims = 8 | imprisoned = [[Stateville Correctional Center]] | conviction = [[Murder]] (8 counts) }} '''Richard Benjamin Speck''' (December 6, 1941 – December 5, 1991) was an American [[mass murder]]er who killed eight [[student nurse]]s in their [[South Deering, Chicago]], residence via [[stabbing]], [[strangulation|strangling]], slashing their throats, or a combination of the three on the night of July 13–14, 1966. Speck also [[rape]]d one victim before killing her. A ninth potential victim, student nurse Corazon Amurao, survived by hiding beneath a bed. Convicted of all eight murders on April 15, 1967, Speck was [[Capital punishment in Illinois|sentenced to death]]. His sentence was reduced to 400–1,200 years in 1972. This was later reduced to 100–300 years. Speck died of a [[heart attack]] while incarcerated at [[Stateville Correctional Center]] on the eve of his 50th birthday. == Early life and crimes == {{One source section|date=June 2018}} === Childhood === Richard Benjamin Speck&lt;ref name=&quot;Richard Benjamin Speck&quot;&gt;{{cite news |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/625261012.html?FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121102113619/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/625261012.html?FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI|url-status=dead|archive-date=November 2, 2012|title=Find missing woman sought in Speck case |newspaper=[[Chicago Tribune]] |date=August 5, 1966 |page=14 |quote=indictments were returned against Richard Franklin Speck, the name he used most frequently, instead of Richard Benjamin Speck, as shown on his birth certificate}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;sun-times&quot;&gt;{{cite news |first=Scott|last=Fornek|title=Drinking buddy: 'He was just calm' |newspaper=[[Chicago Sun-Times]] |date=July 9, 2006|page=A13 |url=http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=CSTB&amp;p_theme=cstb&amp;p_action=search&amp;p_maxdocs=200&amp;s_dispstring=headline(Drinking%20buddy:%20'He%20was%20just%20calm')%20AND%20date(all)&amp;p_field_advanced-0=title&amp;p_text_advanced-0=(Drinking%20buddy:%20'He%20was%20just%20calm')&amp;xcal_numdocs=20&amp;p_perpage=10&amp;p_sort=YMD_date:D&amp;xcal_useweights=no|quote=Speck was born Richard Benjamin Speck on Dec. 6, 1941, in Downstate Kirkwood. Later, he took Franklin—his father's middle name—as his own middle name}}&lt;/ref&gt; was born in [[Kirkwood, Illinois]] in 1941 and was the seventh of eight children of Benjamin Franklin Speck and Mary Margaret Carbaugh. The family moved to [[Monmouth, Illinois]], shortly after Speck's birth. He and his sister Carolyn (b. 1943) were much younger than their four older sisters and two older brothers. His mother was religious and a [[Teetotalism|teetotaler]]. His father worked as a packer at Western Stoneware in Monmouth having previously worked as a farmer and logger. In 1947, when Speck was six years old, his father died from a heart attack at the age of 53. Speck was reportedly very close to his father.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;&gt;{{harvp|Breo|Martin|Kunkle|1993}}&lt;/ref&gt; On May 10, 1950, three years after the death of his father, his mother Mary married Carl August Rudolph Lindberg in [[Palo Pinto, Texas]]. She and Lindberg had met during a train ride to [[Chicago]]. Lindberg was a traveling insurance salesman from Texas, with a 25-year criminal record that ranged from forgery to several [[Driving under the influence|DUIs]]. Lindberg was also a [[Alcoholism|hard drinker]] unlike Speck's father. Speck and his sister Carolyn stayed with their married sister Sara Thornton in Monmouth for a few months so Speck could finish second grade, before joining their mother and Lindberg in rural [[Santo, Texas]], {{convert|40|mi|0}} west of [[Fort Worth, Texas]], where Speck attended third grade. In 1952, Speck's eldest brother, Robert, died in an automobile accident at the age of 23.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; === Dallas, 1951–1966 === In 1951, after a year in Santo, Speck moved with his mother, Lindberg, and sister Carolyn to [[East Dallas]]. Over the next 12 years, the family moved frequently, living at 10 different addresses, usually in poor neighborhoods. Speck loathed his stepfather who was often drunk, verbally abusive, and frequently absent.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; Speck struggled in school, refusing to wear the glasses that he needed for reading. He repeated the eighth grade at [[East Dallas#Middle schools|J. L. Long Jr. High School]], in part because of his fear of people staring at him and his subsequent refusal to speak in class.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Altman 1967&quot;&gt;{{cite book |first1=Jack|last1=Altman|first2=Marvin|last2=Ziporyn |title=Born to Raise Hell : The Untold Story of Richard Speck |url=https://archive.org/details/borntoraisehellu00altm|url-access=registration|publisher=[[Grove Press]] |location=New York City|date=1967|oclc=295373}}&lt;/ref&gt; In autumn 1957, Speck started ninth grade at [[Crozier Technical High School]], but failed every subject. Speck did not return for the second semester, dropping out of school in January 1958, after his 16th birthday. Speck started drinking alcohol at age 12 and by age 15, he was getting drunk almost every day. His first arrest, in 1955 at age 13 for trespassing, was followed by dozens of other arrests for [[misdemeanor]]s over the next eight years.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; From 1960 to 1963, Speck worked as a laborer for the [[7-Up]] bottling company in Dallas. In October 1961, Speck met 15-year-old Shirley Annette Malone at the [[State Fair of Texas|Texas State Fair]]. She became pregnant after three weeks of dating. The couple married on January 19, 1962, and initially moved in with his sister Carolyn and her husband. Speck's mother lived there as well having separated from Lindberg who was now living in California. Speck stopped using the name Richard Benjamin Lindberg when he got married and went back to using Richard Benjamin Speck. His daughter, Robbie Lynn Speck was born on July 5, 1962, while Speck was serving a 22-day jail sentence for disturbing the peace after a drunken melee in [[McKinney, Texas]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; In July 1963, at the age of 21, Speck was sentenced to serve three years in prison after being convicted of forgery and burglary. Speck had forged and cashed a co-worker's $44 paycheck ({{inflation|US|44|1963|fmt=eq}}) and also robbed a grocery store for cigarettes, beer, and $3 in cash ({{inflation|US|3|1963|fmt=eq}}). He was paroled in 1965 after serving 16 months at [[Huntsville Unit|Texas State Penitentiary]] in [[Huntsville, Texas]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; His release lasted a week. Speck was arrested again on January 9, 1965. Speck attacked a woman in the parking lot of her apartment building, wielding a {{convert|17|in|cm|adj=on}} carving knife, but fled when the woman screamed. The police arrived within minutes and apprehended Speck a few blocks away. Speck was convicted of aggravated assault, given a 16-month sentence to run concurrently with a parole violation sentence, and returned to prison in Huntsville. However, due to an error, he was released just six months later upon the completion of his parole violation sentence on July 2, 1965.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; After his release, Speck worked for three months as a driver for the Patterson Meat Company. Although he had six accidents in the company's truck, he was only fired for failing to show up for work. In December 1965, upon the recommendation of his mother, Speck moved in with a 29-year-old divorced woman, an ex-professional wrestler and now a bartender at his favorite bar, Ginny's Lounge, to babysit her three children. In January 1966, Malone, who had been separated from Speck, filed for divorce. That same month, Speck stabbed a man in a knife fight at Ginny's Lounge. He was charged with aggravated assault, but a defense attorney hired by his mother got the charge reduced to disturbing the peace. Speck was fined $10 ({{inflation|US|10|1966|fmt=eq}}) and jailed for three days after he failed to pay the fine. This was the last time Speck was in police custody in Dallas.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; On March 5, 1966, Speck bought a 12-year-old car then robbed a grocery store the following evening, stealing 70 cartons of cigarettes, which he then sold out of the trunk of his car in the grocery store's parking lot. The police traced the car (which Speck had abandoned) and issued a warrant for his arrest for burglary on March 8. Had he been apprehended under that warrant, it would have been his 42nd arrest in Dallas and would have surely resulted in another prison term. On March 9, 1966, Speck's sister Carolyn drove him to the Dallas bus depot, where he took a bus to [[Chicago, Illinois]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; === Monmouth, March–April 1966 === Speck stayed with his sister Martha Thornton and her family in Chicago for a few days, and then returned to his boyhood hometown of [[Monmouth, Illinois]], where he initially stayed with some old family friends. Speck's brother Howard was a carpenter in Monmouth and found a job for him sanding plasterboard for another Monmouth carpenter. Speck became angry when he learned his ex-wife had remarried two days after she was granted a divorce on March 16, 1966. He moved to the Christy Hotel in downtown Monmouth on March 25 and spent most of his time in the downtown taverns. At the end of March, while Speck and some acquaintances were on a bar-hopping trip to [[Gulf Port, Illinois|Gulfport, Illinois]] they were detained overnight by police there after Speck reportedly threatened a man in a tavern restroom with his knife.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; On April 3, Mrs. Virgil Harris, a 65-year-old resident of Monmouth, returned home at 1:00&amp;nbsp;a.m. to find a burglar in her house brandishing a knife. He was a 6-foot-tall white man who was &quot;very polite&quot; and spoke &quot;very softly with a Southern drawl.&quot; The man blindfolded her, tied her up, raped her, ransacked her house, and stole the $2.50 she had earned babysitting that evening.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; A week later, Mary Kathryn Pierce, a 32-year-old barmaid who worked at her brother-in-law's tavern, Frank's Place, in downtown Monmouth, was last seen leaving the tavern at 12:20&amp;nbsp;a.m. on April 9. She was reported missing on April 13, and her body was found that day in an empty hog house behind the tavern. She had died from a blow to her abdomen that ruptured her liver.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; Speck had frequented Frank's Place, and the empty hog house was one of several he had helped build in the preceding month, so Monmouth police briefly questioned him about Pierce's death when he showed up to collect his final carpentry paycheck on April 15 and asked him to stay in town for further questioning. When police showed up at the Christy Hotel on April 19 to continue questioning Speck, they discovered he had left the hotel a few hours earlier, carrying his suitcases and saying he was just going to the laundromat. He had instead left town. A search of his room turned up a radio and costume jewelry Mrs. Virgil Harris had reported missing from her house, as well as items reported missing in two other local burglaries in the previous month.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; === Chicago, April–June 1966 === On April 19, 1966, Speck returned to stay at his sister Martha's second-floor apartment at 3966 N. Avondale Ave., in the [[Irving Park, Chicago|Old Irving Park]] neighborhood on the Northwest side of Chicago, where she lived with her husband, Gene Thornton, and their two teenage daughters. Martha had worked as a [[registered nurse]] in pediatrics before she was married, and her husband Gene worked nights as a railroad switchman. Speck told them an unbelievable story about having to leave Monmouth after refusing to sell narcotics for a &quot;crime syndicate&quot; there. Gene Thornton, who had served in the [[United States Navy|U.S. Navy]], thought that the [[United States Merchant Marine|U.S. Merchant Marine]] might provide a suitable occupation for his unemployed brother-in-law, so on April 25 he took Speck to the [[United States Coast Guard|U.S. Coast Guard]] office to apply for a letter of authority to work as an apprentice seaman. The application required being fingerprinted and photographed, and having a physical examination by a doctor.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; Speck found work immediately after obtaining the letter of authority, joining the 33-member crew of [[Inland Steel Company|Inland Steel]]'s ''Clarence B. Randall'', an L6-S-B1 class bulk ore [[lake freighter]], on April 30. Speck's first voyage on the ''Clarence B. Randall'' was brief, since he was stricken with [[appendicitis]] on May 3, and was evacuated by U.S. Coast Guard helicopter to St. Joseph's Hospital in [[Hancock, Michigan]], on the [[Keweenaw Peninsula]] of [[Michigan]]'s [[Upper Peninsula of Michigan|Upper Peninsula]] where he had an emergency appendectomy.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; After he was discharged from the hospital, Speck returned to stay with his sister Martha and her family in Chicago to recuperate. On May 20, he rejoined the crew of the ''Clarence B. Randall'' on which he served until June 14, when he got drunk and quarreled with one of the boat's officers and was put ashore on June 15. For the following week, Speck stayed at the St. Elmo, an [[East Side, Chicago]] [[flophouse]] at E. 99th St. &amp; S. Ewing Ave. Speck then traveled by train to [[Houghton, Michigan]], staying at the Douglas House, to visit Judy Laakaniemi, a 28-year-old [[Certified Nursing Assistant|nurse's aide]] going through a divorce, whom he had befriended at St. Joseph's Hospital. On June 27, after Judy gave him $80 to help him until he found work, Speck left to again stay with his sister Martha and her family in Chicago for the next two weeks.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; On June 30, Speck's brother-in-law Gene drove him to the [[National Maritime Union]] (NMU) hiring hall at 2335 E. 100th St. in the Jeffery Manor neighborhood of [[South Deering, Chicago]] to file his paperwork for a seaman's card. The NMU hiring hall was one block east of five attached two-story brick [[townhouse]]s, three of which were occupied by South Chicago Community Hospital senior student nurses and [[Filipino people|Filipino]] exchange registered nurses. Eight of these nurses lived in the easternmost townhouse at 2319 E. 100th St., just {{convert|150|ft}} from the NMU hiring hall.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; === Chicago, July 1966 === On Friday, July 8, 1966, Speck's brother-in-law Gene drove him to the NMU hiring hall to pick up his seaman's card and register for a berth on a ship. Speck lost out that day to a seaman with more seniority for a berth on the SS ''Flying Spray'', a [[Type C1 ship|C1-A]] cargo ship bound for [[South Vietnam]], and returned to his sister Martha's apartment for the weekend.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; By Monday, July 11, Speck had outstayed his welcome with his sister Martha and her family. After packing his bags and again being driven by his brother-in-law to the NMU hiring hall to await a berth on a ship, Speck stayed the night at Pauline's rooming house, about {{convert|1|mi|m}} away at 3028 E. 96th St., in the Vets Park neighborhood of South Deering, Chicago.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; On Tuesday, July 12, Speck returned to the NMU hiring hall. In mid-afternoon, he received an assignment on [[Sinclair Oil Corporation|Sinclair Oil]]'s tanker SS ''Sinclair Great Lakes'', which was a 30-minute drive away in [[East Chicago, Indiana]]. When he arrived there, he found that his spot had already been taken, and he was driven back to the NMU hiring hall, which was then closed. Speck did not have enough money for a rooming house, so he dropped his bags off six blocks east at the Manor [[Shell Oil Company|Shell]] filling station at 9954 S. Torrence Ave. and slept in an unfinished house just off E. 103rd St.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Getty 1974&quot;&gt;{{cite book |author1=Getty, Gerald W. |author2=Presley, James |year=1974 |chapter=Richard Speck and the eight slaughtered nurses |title=Public Defender |location=New York |publisher=[[Grosset &amp; Dunlap]] |pages=222–337 |isbn=978-0-448-01023-6}}&lt;/ref&gt; On Wednesday, July 13, Speck picked up his bags and checked in at the NMU hiring hall. He was angry for being sent to a non-existent assignment, and he talked for 30 minutes in the car with his sister Martha and her husband Gene, who had driven down to visit him at 9 a.m. They parked on E. 100th St. next to Luella Elementary School, across the street from the townhouses where the nurses lived. At 10:30&amp;nbsp;a.m., he was tired of waiting at the NMU hiring hall for a job. Speck had $25 that his sister had given him, and he left and walked about {{convert|1.5|mi}} east on E. 100th St. to check in at the Shipyard Inn at E. 101st St. &amp; S. Avenue N; the inn was an East Side, Chicago rooming house.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; Speck spent the rest of the day drinking in nearby taverns before he accosted Ella Mae Hooper at knifepoint; she was a 53-year-old woman who had spent the day drinking at the same taverns that Speck had patronized. Speck took her to his room at the Shipyard Inn, raped her, and stole her black $16 mail-order [[.22 Short|.22 caliber]] [[Röhm (RG)|Röhm]] pistol.&lt;ref&gt;{{harvp|Breo|Martin|Kunkle|1993|pp=23–24}}: &quot;Ella Mae had obtained the .22 caliber black Rohm pistol for $16 from a mail-order house in West Virginia...and it was delivered to her by parcel post on March 10, 1966&quot;.&lt;/ref&gt; He then left, dressed entirely in black, armed with a [[switchblade]],&lt;ref&gt;{{harvp|Breo|Martin|Kunkle|1993|pp=199–200}}: possibly a $4.75 black-handled [[Imperial Schrade|Schrade Walden]] &quot;Improved Muskrat&quot; switchblade with {{frac|2|3|4}} inch and {{frac|2|3|16}} inch blades.&lt;/ref&gt; and Ella Mae Hooper's handgun. After dinner at the nearby Kay's Pilot House, Speck returned to drink at the Shipyard Inn's tavern until 10:20&amp;nbsp;p.m. and walked about {{convert|1.5|mi}} west on E. 100th St. to the nurses' townhouse at 2319 E. 100th St.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; ==Murder of eight student nurses== [[File:1965 Speck Decedents With Nurse Judith DyktonA.jpg|thumb|Five of the nurses murdered by Speck are seen here with nurse Judith Dykton (upper left) in 1965. Depicted clockwise bottom left to bottom right are Jordan, Farris, Schmale, Pasion, and Wilkening]] At 11 p.m. on July 13, 1966, Speck broke into the 2319 E. 100th St townhouse in Chicago's [[Jeffery Manor, Chicago|Jeffery Manor]] neighborhood; the townhouse was functioning as a dormitory for student nurses. &lt;!-- – the Illinois Supreme Court opinion recounting the facts of the case reports that the defendant appeared at the door of the townhouse holding Hooper's gun – --&gt; He entered and, using only a knife, killed Gloria Davy, Patricia Matusek, Nina Jo Schmale, Pamela Wilkening, Suzanne Farris, Mary Ann Jordan, Merlita Gargullo, and Valentina Pasion. Speck, who later claimed he was both drunk and high on drugs, may have originally planned to commit a routine burglary.&lt;ref&gt;Fornek, Scott. [http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1662933/posts&quot;'They're all dead!': 40 years ago this week, Richard Speck killed 8&quot;]. ''Chicago Sun-Times''. July 9, 2006.&lt;/ref&gt; Speck held the women in a room for hours, leading them out one by one, stabbing or strangling each to death, then finally raping and strangling his last victim, 22-year-old Gloria Davy. Intervals of between twenty and thirty minutes elapsed between each murder.&lt;ref&gt;''The Murder Almanac'' {{ISBN|978-1-897-78404-4}} p. 149&lt;/ref&gt; One woman, Corazon Amurao, escaped death because she crawled and hid under a bed while Speck was out of the room. Speck possibly lost count or might have known eight women lived in the townhouse but was unaware that a ninth woman was spending the night. Amurao stayed hidden until almost 6 a.m.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine|last=Chua-Eoan |first=Howard |url=http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1937349_1937350_1937409,00.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20100115055151/http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1937349_1937350_1937409,00.html |url-status=dead |archive-date=January 15, 2010 |title=Top 25 Crimes of the Century: Richard Speck, 1966 |magazine=Time |date=March 1, 2007}}&lt;/ref&gt; Amurao and two of the murder victims, Gargullo and Pasion, were exchange nurses from the Philippines.&lt;ref&gt;[http://globalnation.inquirer.net/141836/141836 &quot;Three Filipina nurses and Chicago’s ‘Crime of the Century’&quot;] {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160726140841/http://globalnation.inquirer.net/141836/141836|date=2016-07-26|access-date=November 26, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Fingerprints found at the scene were matched to Speck.&lt;ref name=&quot;mult2&quot;/&gt; Two days after the murders, a drifter named Claude Lunsford identified Speck. Speck, Lunsford, and another man had been drinking the evening of July 15 on the fire escape of the Starr Hotel at 617 W. Madison. On July 16, Lunsford recognized a sketch of the murderer in the evening paper and phoned the police at 9:30&amp;nbsp;p.m. after finding Speck in his (Lunsford's) room at the Starr Hotel. The police, however, did not respond to the call although their records showed the call had been made. Speck then attempted [[suicide]], and the Starr Hotel desk clerk phoned in the emergency around midnight. Speck was taken to [[Cook County Hospital]] at 12:30&amp;nbsp;a.m. on July 17. At the hospital, Speck was recognized by Dr. LeRoy Smith, a 25-year-old surgical [[resident physician]], who had read about the &quot;Born To Raise Hell&quot; tattoo in a newspaper story. The police were called, and Speck was finally arrested.&lt;ref name=&quot;mult2&quot;&gt;Fornek, Scott. [http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/lofiversion/index.php?t9041.html &quot;Dogged detectives, alert physician nailed Speck&quot;]{{dead link|date=December 2017 |bot=InternetArchiveBot |fix-attempted=yes }}. ''Chicago Sun-Times''. July 10, 2006. Reprint.&lt;/ref&gt; Concerns over the recent [[Miranda v. Arizona|''Miranda'']] decision that had vacated the convictions of a number of criminals meant Speck was not even questioned for three weeks after his arrest.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine| url=http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,836154-2,00.html | archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20090612034140/http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,836154-2,00.html | url-status=dead | archive-date=June 12, 2009 | magazine=Time | title=Criminal Justice: Learning to Live with Miranda | date=August 5, 1966}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Pre-trial== {{One source section|date=June 2018}} Felony Court Judge [[Herbert J. Paschen]] appointed an impartial panel to report on Speck's competence to stand trial and his sanity at the time of the crime—a panel of three physicians suggested by the defense and three physicians selected by the prosecution, consisting of five psychiatrists and one general surgeon. The panel's confidential report deemed Speck competent to stand trial and concluded he had not been insane at the time of the murders.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; While awaiting trial, Speck participated in twice-weekly sessions with part-time Cook County Jail psychiatrist, Dr. Marvin Ziporyn. These continued after Speck's transfer from Cermak Memorial Hospital (inside Chicago's House of Corrections) on July 29, 1966, until February 13, 1967, the day before Speck was transferred to Peoria to stand trial. Ziporyn prepared a discharge summary with depression, anxiety, guilt, and shame among Speck's emotions, but also a deep love for his family. It went on to note an [[obsessive compulsive personality disorder|obsessive-compulsive personality]] and a [[Madonna whore complex|&quot;Madonna-prostitute&quot;]] attitude towards women. Ziporyn maintained Speck viewed women as saintly until he felt betrayed by them for some reason, after which hostility developed. Speck was also diagnosed with [[organic brain syndrome]], resulting from cerebral injuries he had suffered earlier in his life, and stated he was competent to stand trial but was insane at the time of the crime due to the effects of alcohol and drug use on his organic brain syndrome.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; Dr. Ziporyn did not testify for the defense or the prosecution, as both sides were troubled to learn before the trial that Ziporyn was writing a book about Speck for financial gain. Ziporyn also earned the ire of the Cook County Jail, which fired him as its part-time psychiatrist the week after Speck's trial ended. At some point during his interviews with Speck, Ziporyn had obtained a written three-sentence consent from Speck authorizing him to tell &quot;what I am really like.&quot; Ziporyn's biography of Speck was published in the summer of 1967.&lt;ref name=&quot;Breo 1993&quot;/&gt; ==Confessions== {| style=&quot;float:right; margin:1em; width:18em; border:2px solid #a0a0a0; padding:4px; background:#k9k9k9; text-align:left;&quot; |- style=&quot;text-align:center;&quot; |'''Fatalities''' |- style=&quot;text-align:left; font-size:small;&quot; | Gloria Jean Davy (22) |- style=&quot;text-align:left; font-size:small;&quot; | Suzanne Bridgit Farris (21) |- style=&quot;text-align:left; font-size:small;&quot; | Merlita Ornado Gargullo (23) |- style=&quot;text-align:left; font-size:small;&quot; | Mary Ann Jordan (20) |- style=&quot;text-align:left; font-size:small;&quot; | Patricia Ann Matusek (20) |- style=&quot;text-align:left; font-size:small;&quot; | Valentina P. Pasion (24) |- style=&quot;text-align:left; font-size:small;&quot; | Nina Jo Schmale (24) |- style=&quot;text-align:left; font-size:small;&quot; | Pamela Lee Wilkening (20) |} Speck later claimed he had no [[recollection]] of the murders, but he had confessed the crime to Dr. LeRoy Smith at the Cook County Hospital. Smith did not testify, because the confession was made while Speck was sedated. Illinois Supreme Court Justice [[John J. Stamos]], Cook County's state attorney when Speck was tried, who knew of the hospital confession, stated, &quot;...we didn't need it. We had an eyewitness.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;mult2&quot;/&gt; Speck confessed to the murders for the first time in public when he spoke to ''[[Chicago Tribune]]'' columnist [[Bob Greene]] in 1978.&lt;ref name=&quot;bobgreene&quot;&gt;{{cite book|title= American Beat|last= Greene|first= Bob|year= 1983|publisher= Atheneum|location= New York|isbn= 978-0-689-11397-0|pages= [https://archive.org/details/americanbeat00gree/page/58 58–62]|url= https://archive.org/details/americanbeat00gree/page/58}}&lt;/ref&gt; In a film that inmates made at the Stateville Correctional Center in 1988, Speck recounted the brutal murders in detail. He again stated he was high that night, but then he undercut the idea that the drugs were a [[mitigating factor]], asserting he could just as well have &quot;done it sober&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Siemaszko |first1=Corky |title=How Richard Speck's Rampage 50 Years Ago Changed a Nation |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/how-richard-speck-s-rampage-50-years-ago-changed-nation-n606211 |access-date=September 20, 2018 |agency=NBC News |date=July 13, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Trial== Speck's [[jury trial]] began April 3, 1967, in [[Peoria, Illinois]], three hours southwest of Chicago, with a [[gag order]] on the press.&lt;ref&gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20070626234919/http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,843499,00.html &quot;The Press and Richard Speck&quot;]. ''TIME''. March 3, 1967.&lt;/ref&gt; In court, Speck was positively identified by the sole surviving student nurse, Corazon Amurao. When Amurao was asked if she could identify the killer of her fellow students, Amurao rose from her seat in the witness box, walked directly in front of Speck and pointed her finger at him, nearly touching him, and said, &quot;This is the man.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Citation | last = Sobol | first = Rosemary | date = April 25, 2016 | title = Richard Speck attack survivor: 'Somebody up there was hiding me from him' | publisher = Chicago Tribune | url = https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-richard-speck-chicago-mass-murder-book-20160424-story.html | access-date = December 17, 2020 }}&lt;/ref&gt; In addition, Lieutenant Emil Giese testified that [[fingerprint]]s at the scene had been matched to Richard Speck.&lt;ref name=&quot;mult2&quot;/&gt; On April 15, after 49 minutes of deliberation, the jury found Speck guilty and recommended the death penalty. On June 5, Judge Herbert C. Paschen sentenced Speck to die in the [[electric chair]], but granted an immediate stay pending automatic appeal. The [[Illinois Supreme Court]] subsequently upheld his conviction and death sentence on November 22, 1968.&lt;ref&gt;[http://tvnews.vanderbilt.edu/program.pl?ID=198528 ''Speck Conviction'']. from ''CBS Evening News'', from the Vanderbilt Television News Archive. November 22, 1968.&lt;/ref&gt; ==XYY syndrome myth== In December 1965 and March 1966, ''[[Nature (journal)|Nature]]'' and ''[[The Lancet]]'' published findings by British [[cytogenetics|cytogeneticist]] [[Patricia Jacobs]] and colleagues of a [[chromosome]] survey of patients at Scotland's only [[State Hospital|security hospital]] for the [[developmental disability|developmentally disabled]]. Nine of the patients, ranging from {{height|ft=5|in=7}} to {{height|ft=6|in=2}} height, were found to have an extra Y chromosome, the [[XYY syndrome]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author1=Jacobs, Patricia A. |author2=Brunton, Muriel |author3=Melville, Marie M. |author4=Brittain, R. P. |author5=McClemont, W. F. |date=December 25, 1965 |title=Aggressive behavior, mental sub-normality and the XYY male |journal=Nature |volume=208 |issue=5017 |pages=1351–2 |doi=10.1038/2081351a0 |pmid=5870205|bibcode=1965Natur.208.1351J |s2cid=4145850 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author1=Price, W. H. |author2=Strong, J. A. |author3=Whatmore, P. B. |author4=McClemont, W. F. |date=March 12, 1966 |title=Criminal patients with XYY sex-chromosome complement |journal=Lancet |volume=287 |issue=7437 |pages=565–6 |doi=10.1016/S0140-6736(66)90760-4 |pmid=4159988}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author=editorial |date=March 12, 1966 |title=The YY syndrome |journal=Lancet |volume=287 |issue=7437 |pages=583–4 |doi=10.1016/S0140-6736(66)90771-9 |pmid=4159658 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Jacobs hypothesized that men with XYY syndrome are more prone to aggressive and violent behavior than males with the normal XY [[karyotype]], but the idea was later shown to be incorrect.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author1=Price, W. H. |author2=Whatmore, P. B. |date=February 25, 1967 |title=Criminal behavior and the XYY male |journal=Nature |volume=213 |issue=5078 |page=815 |doi= 10.1038/213815a0 |pmid=6031815|bibcode=1967Natur.213..815P |s2cid=4158233 |doi-access=free }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite journal |author1=Price, W. H. |author2=Whatmore, P. B. |date=March 4, 1967 |title=Behavior disorders and pattern of crime among XYY males identified at a maximum security hospital |journal=Br Med J |volume=1 |issue=5539 |pages=533–6 |pmid=6017153 |pmc=1841401 |doi=10.1136/bmj.1.5539.533}}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite journal |author1=Jacobs, Patricia A. |author2=Price, W. H. |author3=Court Brown, W. M. |author4=Brittain, R. P. |author5=Whatmore, P. B. |date=May 1968 |title=Chromosome studies on men in a maximum security hospital |journal=Ann Hum Genet |volume=31 |issue=4 |pages=339–58 |url=http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119911478/abstract |doi=10.1111/j.1469-1809.1968.tb00566.x |s2cid=83969793 }}{{Dead link|date=July 2022 |bot=InternetArchiveBot |fix-attempted=yes }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite journal |author1=Court Brown |author2=W. M. |date=December 1968 |title=Males with an XYY sex chromosome complement |journal=J Med Genet |volume=5 |issue=4 |pages=341–59 |doi=10.1136/jmg.5.4.341 |pmid=4890326 |pmc=1468679}}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite journal |author=Jacobs, Patricia A. |date=September 1982 |title=The William Allan Memorial Award address: human population cytogenetics: the first twenty-five years |journal=Am J Hum Genet |volume=34 |issue=5 |pages=689–98 |pmid=6751075 |pmc=1685430}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Green 1985&quot;&gt;{{cite book |author=Green, Jeremy |year=1985 |chapter=Media sensationalism and science: The case of the criminal chromosome |pages=[https://archive.org/details/expositoryscienc0000unse/page/139 139–161] |editor1=Shinn, Terry |editor2=Whitley, Richard |title=Expository science: Forms and functions of popularization |isbn=978-90-277-1831-0 |publisher=D. Reidel Pub. Co. |location=Dordrecht, Holland |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/expositoryscienc0000unse/page/139 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Beckwith 2002&quot;&gt;{{cite book |author=Beckwith, Jonathan R. |year=2002 |chapter=The myth of the criminal chromosome |title=Making genes, making waves: A social activist in science |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/makinggenesmakin0000beck |chapter-url-access=registration |location=Cambridge, Massachusetts |publisher=Harvard University Press |isbn=978-0-674-00928-8 |pages=[https://archive.org/details/makinggenesmakin0000beck/page/116 116–134]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In August 1966, Eric Engel, a Swiss [[Endocrinology#Endocrinology as a profession|endocrinologist]] and [[geneticist]] at [[Vanderbilt University#Medical Center|Vanderbilt University]] in [[Nashville, Tennessee]], wrote to Speck's attorney, [[Cook County Public Defender]] Gerald W. Getty, who was reportedly planning an [[insanity defense]]. He suggested, based on Jacobs's unsubstantiated theory and Speck's height of {{height|ft=6|in=1}}, that Speck might have XYY syndrome.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author1=Davis, Richard John |author2=McGee, Barbara J. |author3=Empson, Judith |author4=Engel, Eric |date=November 21, 1970 |title=XYY and crime |journal=Lancet |volume=296 |issue=7682 |pages=1086 |doi=10.1016/S0140-6736(70)90319-3 |pmid=4098380}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Engel 1972&quot;&gt;{{cite journal |author=Engel, Eric |date=September 1972 |title=The making of an XYY |journal=Am J Ment Defic |volume=77 |issue=2 |pages=123–7 |pmid=5081078}}&lt;/ref&gt; A chromosome analysis performed the following month by Engel revealed that Speck had a normal XY karyotype.&lt;ref name=&quot;Engel 1972&quot;/&gt; One month later, a court-appointed panel of six physicians rejected Getty's insanity argument and concluded that Speck was mentally competent to stand trial.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |date=August 3, 1966 |title=Speck's lawyer maps strategy in defense |work=Chicago Tribune |page=7 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/625247402.html?dids=625247402:625247402&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |access-date=July 7, 2017 |archive-date=October 20, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121020041340/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/625247402.html?dids=625247402:625247402&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |url-status=dead }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite news |author=Wiedrich, Robert |date=August 19, 1966 |title=Mental test panel for Speck is asked |work=Chicago Tribune |page=1 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/625345322.html?dids=625345322:625345322&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite news |date=September 10, 1966 |title=Judge orders Speck be given mental tests; Orders panel of 6 to report back Oct. 24 |work=Chicago Tribune |page=17 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/595351942.html?dids=595351942:595351942&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |access-date=July 7, 2017 |archive-date=October 19, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121019192718/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/595351942.html?dids=595351942:595351942&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |url-status=dead }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite news |date=October 25, 1966 |title=Rule Speck can face trial; Panel silent on sanity on murder day; Final report due on Nov. 4 |work=Chicago Tribune |page=1 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/587081712.html?dids=587081712:587081712&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |access-date=July 7, 2017 |archive-date=October 19, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121019192728/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/587081712.html?dids=587081712:587081712&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1968, [[biochemist]] Mary Telfer and associates published data from a genetic analysis, similar in design to Jacobs's, of subjects confined in psychiatric hospitals and penal institutions in [[Pennsylvania]]. Of the five XYY patients identified, four exhibited moderate to severe facial [[acne vulgaris|acne]], leading the group to suggest that acne be added to the list of defining XYY characteristics. Subsequent research failed to substantiate this observation as well.&lt;ref name=&quot;Telfer 1968a&quot;&gt;{{cite journal |author1=Telfer, Mary A. |author2=Baker, David |author3=Longtin, Lucien |date=January 13, 1968 |title=YY syndrome in an American Negro |journal=Lancet |volume=291 |issue=7533 |page=95 |doi=10.1016/S0140-6736(68)90107-4 |pmid=4169701}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author1=Telfer, Mary A. |author2=Baker, David |author3=Clark, Gerald R. |author4=Richardson, Claude E. |date=March 15, 1968 |title=Incidence of gross chromosomal errors among tall criminal American males |journal=Science |volume=159 |issue=3820 |pages=1249–50 |doi=10.1126/science.159.3820.1249 |pmid=5715587|bibcode=1968Sci...159.1249T |s2cid=27416349 }}&lt;/ref&gt; After Getty contacted Telfer to discuss her findings and their possible relevance to his client, Telfer wrote a speculative piece for the British journal ''[[Think (journal)|Think]]'' in which she mistakenly reported that Speck had an XYY karyotype. That, combined with his extensive acne scarring, led her to describe Speck as &quot;the [[archetype|archetypal]] XYY male&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author=Telfer, Mary A. |date=November–December 1968 |title=Are some criminals born that way? |journal=Think |volume=34 |issue=6 |pages=24–8 |issn=0040-6112}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;PMID5443650&quot;&gt;{{cite journal |author1=Clark, Gerald R. |author2=Telfer, Mary A. |author3=Baker, David |author4=Rosen, Marvin |date=May 1970 |title=Sex chromosomes, crime, and psychosis |journal=Am J Psychiatry |volume=126 |issue=11 |pages=1659–63 |url=http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/126/11/1659 |pmid=5443650 |doi=10.1176/ajp.126.11.1659 |access-date=March 18, 2009 |archive-date=June 12, 2011 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110612031407/http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/126/11/1659 |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author1=Baker, David |author2=Telfer, Mary A. |author3=Richardson, Claude E. |author4=Clark, Gerald R. |date=November 2, 1970 |title=Chromosome errors in men with antisocial behavior. Comparison of selected men with Klinefelter's syndrome and XYY chromosome pattern |journal=JAMA |volume=214 |issue=5 |pages=869–78 |pmid=4248395 |doi=10.1001/jama.214.5.869}}&lt;/ref&gt; In a three-part series on the XYY syndrome published in April 1968, ''[[The New York Times]]'' presented Jacobs's unsubstantiated theory associating the syndrome with violent behavior as an established fact, and noted that the karyotype had been cited as a mitigating factor by attorneys defending an XYY man charged with murder in [[Paris]],&lt;ref name=&quot;Daniel Hugon&quot;&gt;{{cite news |author=Garrison, Lloyd |date=October 15, 1968 |title=French murder jury rejects chromosome defect as defense |newspaper=[[The New York Times]] |page=5 |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1968/10/15/archives/french-murder-jury-rejects-chromosome-defect-as-defense.html}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine |date=October 25, 1968 |title=Criminal law: Question of Y |magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]] |volume=92 |issue=17 |page=76 |url=http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,900408,00.html|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20071120194620/http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,900408,00.html|url-status=dead|archive-date=November 20, 2007}}&lt;/ref&gt; and another in [[Melbourne]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Lawrence Hannell&quot;&gt;{{cite news |date=October 10, 1968 |title=Extra chromosome brings acquittal on murder charge |newspaper=[[The New York Times]] |page=94 |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1968/10/10/archives/extra-chromosome-brings-an-acquittal-on-murder-charge.html}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |author=Auerbach, Stuart |date=October 10, 1968 |title=Genetic abnormality is basis for acquittal |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]] |page=A1 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/access/185091562.html?FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |access-date=July 7, 2017 |archive-date=October 26, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121026113916/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/access/185091562.html?FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |author=Getze, George |date=February 3, 1969 |title=Australia precedent for XYY syndrome case held dubious |newspaper=[[Los Angeles Times]] |page=C1 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/673351452.html?FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |archive-url=https://archive.today/20130131173103/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/673351452.html?FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |url-status=dead |archive-date=January 31, 2013 }}&lt;/ref&gt; It also identified Speck as a &quot;classic example&quot; of an &quot;XYY criminal&quot; and citing Telfer and Getty as sources, predicted that XYY syndrome would form the crux of his insanity defense.&lt;ref name=&quot;Green 1985&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Lyons 1968&quot;&gt;{{cite news |author=Lyons, Richard D. |date=April 21, 1968 |title=Genetic abnormality is linked to crime; Genetics linked to violent crimes |newspaper=[[The New York Times]] |page=1 |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1968/04/21/archives/genetic-abnormality-is-linked-to-crime-genetics-linked-to-violent.html}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |author=Lyons, Richard D. |date=April 22, 1968 |title=Ultimate Speck appeal may cite a genetic defect |newspaper=[[The New York Times]] |page=43 |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1968/04/22/archives/ultimate-speck-appeal-may-cite-a-genetic-defect.html}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |author=editorial |date=April 23, 1968 |title=Nature or nurture? |newspaper=[[The New York Times]] |page=46 |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1968/04/23/archives/nature-or-nurture.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; Similar articles followed, again citing Telfer, in ''[[Time (magazine)|Time]]''&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine |date=May 3, 1968 |title=Of chromosomes &amp; crime |magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]] |volume=91 |issue=18 |pages=41 |url=http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,841254,00.html|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20101029122601/http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,841254,00.html|url-status=dead|archive-date=October 29, 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; and ''[[Newsweek]]'',&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |date=May 6, 1968 |title=Born bad? |journal=[[Newsweek]] |volume=76 |issue=19 |pages=87}}&lt;/ref&gt; and six months later in ''[[The New York Times Magazine]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |author=Stock, Robert W. |date=October 20, 1968 |title=The XYY and the criminal |newspaper=[[The New York Times Magazine]] |page=SM30 |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1968/10/20/archives/the-xyy-and-the-criminal-the-xyy-and-the-criminal.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; In May 1968, Speck's chromosomes were karyotyped a second time by Engel, with the same result: a normal 46,XY genome.&lt;ref name=&quot;Engel 1972&quot;/&gt; After Speck's conviction and death sentence were upheld by the [[Supreme Court of Illinois|Illinois Supreme Court]] later that year&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |date=July 23, 1968 |title=Getty sends Speck appeal to high court; Cites 22 errors in his 193-page brief |work=Chicago Tribune |page=B11 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/586716292.html?dids=586716292:586716292&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |access-date=July 7, 2017 |archive-date=October 19, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121019192811/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/586716292.html?dids=586716292:586716292&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt; and the appeals process moved to the [[Federal judiciary of the United States|Federal court system]],&lt;ref name=&quot;Getty 1968&quot;&gt;{{cite news |date=November 26, 1968 |title=Getty tells Speck case plea basis; 10 issues are raised regarding trial |work=Chicago Tribune |page=A16 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/586226742.html?dids=586226742:586226742&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |access-date=July 7, 2017 |archive-date=October 19, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121019192904/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/586226742.html?dids=586226742:586226742&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt; articles continued to appear in the lay press reporting (or implying) that Speck's supposed XYY genotype would be invoked as a mitigating factor.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |author1=Kotulak, Ronald |author2=Jones, William |date=November 17, 1968 |title=Test Speck, seek genetic error 'alibi'; Move to prevent execution |work=Chicago Tribune |page=1 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/608774632.html?dids=608774632:608774632&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |access-date=July 7, 2017 |archive-date=October 19, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121019192823/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/608774632.html?dids=608774632:608774632&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |author=Howard, Robert |date=November 23, 1968 |title=Upholds Speck sentence; Court fixes Jan. 31 for execution; Trial was fair, Klingbiel rules |work=Chicago Tribune |page=1 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/608798952.html?dids=608798952:608798952&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |access-date=July 7, 2017 |archive-date=October 19, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121019192851/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/608798952.html?dids=608798952:608798952&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt; In a review article published in the ''[[Journal of Medical Genetics]]'' in December 1968, Michael Court Brown found no overrepresentation of XYY males in chromosome surveys of Scottish prisons and hospitals for the developmentally and mentally disabled, and suggested that any conclusions drawn from study populations composed solely of institutionalized males were likely distorted by [[selection bias]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Court Brown 1968&quot;&gt;{{cite journal |author1=Court Brown |author2=W. Michael |date=December 1968 |title=Males with an XYY sex chromosome complement |journal=[[Journal of Medical Genetics|J Med Genet]]|volume=5 |issue=4 |pages=341–59 |doi=10.1136/jmg.5.4.341 |pmid=4890326 |pmc=1468679}}&lt;/ref&gt; In May 1969, at the annual meeting of the [[American Psychiatric Association]], Telfer ''et al.'' reported that they had found no evidence of significant behavior differences, on average, between men with XYY karyotypes and those with normal genomes, and that XYY males had been unfairly stigmatized by earlier unsupported speculation.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |agency=Associated Press |date=May 6, 1969 |title=A kind word said for the XYY men; Psychiatrist cites evidence many are good citizens |newspaper=[[The New York Times]] |page=93 |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1969/05/06/archives/a-kind-word-said-for-the-xyy-men-psychiatrist-cites-evidence-many-a.html}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;PMID5443650&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |author1=Baker, David |author2=Telfer, Mary A. |author3=Richardson, Claude E. |author4=Clark, Gerald R. |date=November 2, 1970 |title=Chromosome errors in men with antisocial behavior. Comparison of selected men with Klinefelter syndrome and XYY chromosome pattern |journal=[[Journal of the American Medical Association|JAMA]] |volume=214 |issue=5 |pages=869–78 |pmid=4248395 |doi=10.1001/jama.214.5.869}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Death penalty reversal== On June 28, 1971, the [[Supreme Court of the United States|U.S. Supreme Court]] (citing their June 3, 1968 ''[[Witherspoon v. Illinois]]'' decision) upheld Speck's conviction but reversed his death sentence, because more than 250 potential jurors were unconstitutionally excluded from his jury because of their conscientious or religious beliefs against [[capital punishment]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Getty 1974&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Witherspoon 1968&quot;&gt;{{cite web |author=U.S. Supreme Court |date=June 3, 1968 |title=Witherspoon v. Illinois |url=http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&amp;court=US&amp;vol=391&amp;page=510 |access-date=August 25, 2008 |author-link=Supreme Court of the United States}}&lt;/ref&gt; The case was remanded back to the Illinois Supreme Court for re-sentencing. On June 29, 1972, in ''[[Furman v. Georgia]]'', the U.S. Supreme Court effectively declared the death penalty [[unconstitutional]], so the Illinois Supreme Court's only option was to order Speck re-sentenced to prison by the original [[Cook County, Illinois|Cook County]] court.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Elsasser|first=Glen|date=June 30, 1972|title=Supreme Court ruling: death sentences voided|newspaper=Chicago Tribune|page=1|url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/605053472.html?FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI|access-date=October 10, 2012}}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite news|last1=Crews|first1=Stephen|last2=Crimmins|first2=Jerry|date=June 30, 1972|title=Most on death row here were appealing|newspaper=Chicago Tribune|page=C16|url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/605050302.html?FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI|access-date=October 10, 2012}}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite news|date=September 21, 1972|title=Top state court orders new Speck sentencing|newspaper=Chicago Tribune|page=1|url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/605120712.html?FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI|access-date=October 10, 2012}}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite web|date=August 18, 2004|title=Chronology: The Illinois death penalty experience—Furman v. Georgia to the present|location=Chicago|publisher=Center on Wrongful Convictions, Northwestern University School of Law|url=http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/Chronology2.htm|archive-date=November 11, 2004|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20041111085018/http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/Chronology2.htm|access-date=February 6, 2007}}&lt;/ref&gt; On November 21, 1972, in Peoria, Judge Richard Fitzgerald re-sentenced Speck to from 400 to 1,200 years in prison (eight consecutive sentences of 50 to 150 years),&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |author=Blatchford, Frank |date=November 22, 1972 |title=New Speck term: 400 to 1,200 years |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |page=1 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/605428842.html?dids=605428842:605428842&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite news |date=November 23, 1972 |title=New law makes Speck eligible for parole in 1977 |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |page=B14 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/605433732.html?dids=605433732:605433732&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite news |author=Oppenheim, Carol |date=November 24, 1972 |title=Plan study of new code; 1977 parole for Speck doubted |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |page=16 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/605438232.html?dids=605438232:605438232&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI }}&lt;/ref&gt; which was then reduced to 100 to 300 years.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Richard Speck Biography (1941–1991)|url=https://www.biography.com/crime-figure/richard-speck|access-date=September 28, 2021|date=April 2, 2014}}&lt;/ref&gt; He was denied parole in seven minutes at his first parole hearing on September 15, 1976, and at six subsequent hearings in 1977, 1978, 1981, 1984, 1987, and 1990.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |author=Oppenheim, Carol |date=September 16, 1976 |title=Speck's parole denied in 7 minutes |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |page=1 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/616772652.html?dids=616772652:616772652&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |access-date=July 7, 2017 |archive-date=October 23, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121023144936/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/616772652.html?dids=616772652:616772652&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |url-status=dead }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite news |date=September 8, 1977 |title=Speck waives hearing on parole with fiery note |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |page=4 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/614684502.html?dids=614684502:614684502&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |access-date=July 7, 2017 |url-status=dead |archive-date=October 23, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121023144952/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/614684502.html?dids=614684502:614684502&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite news |date=September 29, 1978 |title=Parole denied to Speck; next hearing set for 1981 |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |page=A7 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/612389172.html?dids=612389172:612389172&amp;FMT=CITE&amp;FMTS=CITE:AI |access-date=July 7, 2017 |archive-date=October 23, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121023145004/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/612389172.html?dids=612389172:612389172&amp;FMT=CITE&amp;FMTS=CITE:AI |url-status=dead }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite news |date=September 5, 1981 |title=Parole for Speck is denied 4th time |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |page=S2 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/635589562.html?dids=635589562:635589562&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |access-date=July 7, 2017 |archive-date=October 23, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121023145020/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/635589562.html?dids=635589562:635589562&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |url-status=dead }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite news |date=September 8, 1984 |title=Board refuses parole for mass-killer Speck |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |page=5 |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/638831552.html?dids=638831552:638831552&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |access-date=July 7, 2017 |archive-date=October 23, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121023145030/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/638831552.html?dids=638831552:638831552&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:AI |url-status=dead }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite news |author1=O'Brien, John |author2=Davidson, Jean |date=September 10, 1987 |title=Speck is denied parole again |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |page=3 (Chicagoland) |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/24739343.html?dids=24739343:24739343&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:FT }}&lt;br /&gt;{{cite news |date=September 11, 1990 |title=Speck parole denied for 7th time |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |page=3 (Chicagoland) |url=https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/28879643.html?dids=28879643:28879643&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:FT |access-date=July 7, 2017 |archive-date=October 23, 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121023145104/http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/28879643.html?dids=28879643:28879643&amp;FMT=ABS&amp;FMTS=ABS:FT |url-status=dead }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Imprisonment== While incarcerated at the [[Stateville Correctional Center]] in [[Crest Hill, Illinois]], Speck was given the nickname &quot;Birdman&quot; after the film ''[[Birdman of Alcatraz (film)|Birdman of Alcatraz]]'', because he kept a pair of [[American sparrow|sparrow]]s that flew into his cell. He was described as a loner who kept a stamp collection and enjoyed listening to music. His contacts with the warden included requests for new shirts, a radio, and other mundane items. The warden merely described him as &quot;a big nothing doing time.&quot; Speck was not a model prisoner; he was often caught with drugs or distilled [[moonshine]]. Punishment for such infractions never stopped him. &quot;How am I going to get in trouble? I'm here for 1,200 years!&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;bobgreene&quot;/&gt; Speck loathed reporters, and granted only one press interview, in 1978, to ''[[Chicago Tribune]]'' columnist [[Bob Greene]]. During that interview, he publicly confessed to the murders for the first time, and said he thought he would get out of prison &quot;between now and the year 2000,&quot; at which time he hoped to run his own grocery store business. When Greene asked him if he compared himself to celebrity killers like [[John Dillinger]], he replied, &quot;Me, I'm not like Dillinger or anybody else. I'm freakish.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;bobgreene&quot;/&gt; Speck stated that at the time of the killings, he &quot;had no feelings,&quot; but things had changed: &quot;I had no feelings at all that night. They said there was blood all over the place. I can't remember. It felt like nothing ... I'm sorry as hell. For those girls, and for their families, and for me. If I had to do it over again, it would be a simple house burglary.&quot; Speck's &quot;final thought for the American people&quot; was, &quot;Just tell 'em to keep up their hatred for me. I know it keeps up their morale. And I don't know what I'd do without it.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;bobgreene&quot;/&gt; In his book ''[[Mindhunter: Inside the FBI's Elite Serial Crime Unit]]'', [[John E. Douglas]] of the FBI's [[Behavioral Science Unit]] refers to a telling prison incident Speck revealed to him in an interview: &quot;he found an injured sparrow that had flown in through one of the broken windows and nursed it back to health. When it was healthy enough to stand, he tied a string around its leg and had it perch on his shoulder. At one point, a guard told him pets weren't allowed. 'I can't have it?' Speck challenged, then walked over to a spinning fan and threw the small bird in. Horrified, the guard said, 'I thought you liked that bird.' 'I did,' Speck replied. 'But if I can't have it, no one can.'&quot; &lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|first1=John E.|last1=Douglas|author-link=John E. Douglas|first2=Mark|last2=Olshaker|title=Mindhunter: Inside the FBI's Elite Serial Crime Unit|url=https://archive.org/details/mindhunterinsid000doug|url-access=registration|publisher=[[Charles Scribner's Sons|Scribner]]|location=New York City|date=1995|isbn=978-0-671-01375-2}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Prison video === In May 1996, Chicago television news anchor [[Bill Kurtis]] received video tapes made at [[Stateville Correctional Center]] in 1988 from an anonymous attorney. Showing them publicly for the first time before the [[Illinois General Assembly|Illinois state legislature]], Kurtis pointed out the explicit scenes of sex, drug use, and money being passed around by prisoners, who seemingly had no fear of being caught. In the center was Speck, performing [[oral sex]] on an inmate,&lt;ref name=&quot;time video&quot;&gt;{{cite magazine|url=http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,984604,00.html|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080308025756/http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,984604,00.html|url-status=dead|archive-date=March 8, 2008|title=NARY A SPECK OF DECENCY|magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]|publisher=[[Meredith Corporation]]|location=New York City|date=May 27, 1996|access-date=December 7, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;nytimes&quot;&gt;{{cite news|first=Dirk|last=Johnson|url=https://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B01E2DF1339F935A25756C0A960958260|title=Killer's Prison Video Sparks Illinois Lawmakers' Outrage|newspaper=[[The New York Times]]|location=New York City|date=May 16, 1996|access-date=December 7, 2018|url-access=subscription }}&lt;/ref&gt; sharing a large quantity of [[cocaine]] with another inmate, parading in silk panties, sporting [[gynecomastia]] (allegedly grown using smuggled hormone treatments), and boasting: &quot;If they only knew how much fun I was having, they'd turn me loose.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;time video&quot;/&gt; The Illinois legislature packed the auditorium to view the two-hour video,&lt;ref name=&quot;time video&quot;/&gt; but stopped the screening when the tape showed Speck performing oral sex on another man.&lt;ref name=&quot;nytimes&quot;/&gt; From behind the camera, a prisoner asked Speck if he had killed the nurses. Speck responded: &quot;Sure I did.&quot; When asked why, Speck shrugged and jokingly said: &quot;It just wasn't their night.&quot; Asked how he felt about himself in the years since, he said: &quot;Like I always felt ... had no feeling. If you're asking me if I felt sorry, no.&quot; He also described in detail the experience of strangling someone: &quot;It's not like TV ... it takes over three minutes and you have to have a lot of strength.&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;time video&quot;/&gt; ==Death== Shortly before December 5, 1991, Speck was transported from [[Stateville Correctional Center]] to [[Silver Cross Hospital]] in [[Joliet, Illinois]] after complaining of severe [[chest pain]]s.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|last=Times|first=Los Angeles|title=MASS MURDERER DIES IN PRISON RICHARD SPECK, WHO KILLED 8 NURSES IN 1966, SUFFERS HEART ATTACK|url=https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1991-12-06-9102200544-story.html|access-date=December 14, 2020|website=Sun-Sentinel.com|date=December 6, 1991 |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=The Times-News - Google News Archive Search|url=https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1665&amp;dat=19911206&amp;id=j4NPAAAAIBAJ&amp;pg=6775,1302580|access-date=December 14, 2020|website=news.google.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; Speck later died in the early morning hours of December 5, of what was believed to be a [[Myocardial infarction|heart attack]], one day shy of what would have been his 50th birthday.&lt;ref name=&quot;nbc&quot;&gt;{{cite web|first=Corky|last=Siemaszko|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/how-richard-speck-s-rampage-50-years-ago-changed-nation-n606211|title=How Richard Speck's Rampage 50 Years Ago Changed a Nation|website=[[NBC News]]|publisher=[[NBCUniversal]]|location=New York City|date=July 13, 2016|access-date=December 7, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; The coroner stated that Speck had an &quot;[[Cardiomegaly|enlarged heart]], [[Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease|emphysema]] and [[Atherosclerosis|clogged arteries]]&quot; which most likely contributed to his fatal heart attack.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|last=Report|first=Times Staff and Wire|title=Speck's death puts era to rest. Victims' relatives, though|url=https://www.nwitimes.com/uncategorized/specks-death-puts-era-to-rest-victims-relatives-though/article_95d1e4ba-3fd9-5a65-89f6-062af717383d.html|access-date=December 14, 2020|website=nwitimes.com|date=December 6, 1991 |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Speck's sister feared that his grave would be desecrated, so he was cremated, and his ashes were scattered in an undisclosed location in the Joliet area.&lt;ref name=&quot;nbc&quot;/&gt; ==Media== &lt;!---PLEASE DO NOT ADD SONG REFERENCES, REFERENCES TO INCIDENTAL DEPICTIONS UPON ALBUM COVERS OR OTHER DEPICTIONS UPON TV SHOWS OR OTHER IRRELEVANT TRIVIA HERE. THEY DO NOT BELONG HERE, AND WILL REMOVED WITH NO FURTHER DISCUSSION. TRIVIA IS INAPPROPRIATE PER THE PROJECT GOVERNING THIS ARTICLE.---&gt; ===Film=== * The 1967 film ''[[Violated Angels]]'' is a fictionalized version of Speck's murder spree, set in [[Japan]]. * The 1976 film ''[[Naked Massacre]]'' is another fictionalized version of Speck's murder spree, set in [[Northern Ireland]].{{citation needed|date=July 2019}} * The 2002 film ''Speck'' portrays Speck's murders from his perspective. * The 2007 film ''[[Chicago Massacre: Richard Speck]]'' also portrays Speck's crimes. * The 2012 film ''[[100 Ghost Street: The Return of Richard Speck]] ===Television=== * The story of the investigation of Townhouse Massacre, the arrest, and trial of Speck was featured in an episode of [[Investigation Discovery]]'s ''[[A Crime to Remember]]'' entitled, &quot;And Then There Was One&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4879472/|title=A Crime to Remember: And Then There Was One|publisher=imdb.com|work=IMDB|date=May 29, 2019|access-date=September 29, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; * The second episode of season 1 of the [[FX (TV channel)|FX]] series ''[[American Horror Story]]'' uses the murders as reference for the deaths of two nursing students in the Murder House in 1968. * The ninth episode of season 1 of the [[Netflix]] series ''[[Mindhunter (TV series)|Mindhunter]]'', actor Jack Erdie played Richard Speck, detailing the murders of the nurses. * In the fourth episode of season 5 of the [[AMC (TV channel)]] series ''[[Mad Men]],'' the main characters discuss the repercussions of the murders, reflecting the fear and anxiety the killings instilled in the public at the time. * ''[[Great Crimes and Trials|Great Crimes and Trials of the 20th Century]]'' S02E05 (1994). This series was commissioned by the [[BBC]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4784302/|title=Great Crimes and Trials of the Twentieth Century: Richard Speck|publisher=imdb.com|work=IMDB|date=May 30, 2009|access-date=September 29, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;!--PLEASE DO NOT ADD SONG REFERENCES, REFERENCES TO INCIDENTAL DEPICTIONS UPON ALBUM COVERS OR OTHER DEPICTIONS UPON TV SHOWS OR OTHER IRRELEVANT TRIVIA HERE. IT DOES NOT BELONG HERE, AND WILL REMOVED WITH NO FURTHER DISCUSSION. TRIVIA ARE INAPPROPRIATE PER THE PROJECT GOVERNING THIS ARTICLE. --&gt; ==See also== * [[List of homicides in Illinois#Multiple homicides|List of multiple homicides in Illinois]] * [[List of serial rapists]] * [[Most prolific murderers by number of victims]] == References == === Citations === {{reflist}} ===Works cited=== * {{cite book |first1=Daniel L.|last1=Breo|first2=William J. |last2=Martin|first3=Bill|last3=Kunkle |title=The Crime of the Century: Richard Speck and the Murders That Shocked a Nation |publisher=[[Bantam Books]]|location=New York City |date=1993|isbn=978-0-553-56025-1}} ==Further reading== * {{cite book|last1=Cawthorne|first1=Nigel|last2=Tibballs|first2=Geoff|year=1993|title=Killers: Contract Killers, Spree Killers, Sex Killers. The Ruthless Exponents of Murder, the Most Evil Crime of All|publisher=Boxtree|location=London|isbn=0-7522-0850-0}} * {{cite book|last1=Duwe|first1=Grant|title=Mass Murder in the United States: A History|publisher=McFarland &amp; Company|location=North Carolina|year=2007|isbn=978-0-786-43150-2}} * {{cite book|last=Foreman|first=Laura|title=Mass Murderers: True Crime|publisher = Time-Life Books|location=New York|pages=[https://archive.org/details/massmurderers00time/page/n9 6-29]|year=1992|isbn=0-7835-0004-1}} * {{Cite book|last=Fox|first=James Allan|title=Extreme Killing: Understanding Serial and Mass Murder|year=2015|publisher=Sage Publishing|location=London|isbn=978-1-483-35072-1|pages=19–20}} * {{cite book|last1=Leyton|first1=Elliot|title=Hunting Humans: The Rise Of The Modern Multiple Murderer|publisher=McClelland &amp; Stewart|location=Toronto|orig-year=1986|year=2011|isbn=978-0-140-11687-8}} * {{cite book|last1=Whittington-Egan|first1=Richard|last2=Whittington-Egan|first2=Molly|title=The Murder Almanac|year=1992|publisher=Neil Wilson Publishing Ltd.|location=Glasgow|isbn=978-1-897-78404-4}} ==External links== * July 18, 1966 ''[[Chicago Tribune]]'' [https://www.newspapers.com/clip/31905719/richard-speck-capture/ ''article''] focusing upon the murders committed by Richard Speck * Contemporary [https://www.newspapers.com/clip/77351838/richard-speck-kills-8-student-nurses/ ''news article''] pertaining to the trial of Richard Speck * July 1966 ''[[Life (magazine)|Life magazine]]'' [https://books.google.com/books?id=KFYEAAAAMBAJ&amp;pg=PA19 ''article''] focusing upon the murders committed by Richard Speck * [https://web.archive.org/web/20080824060507/http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/speck/index_1.html Richard Speck] at [[TruTV]] * Britannica.com [https://www.britannica.com/biography/Richard-Speck ''article''] pertaining to Richard Speck * 2016 [[NBC]] [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/how-richard-speck-s-rampage-50-years-ago-changed-nation-n606211 ''news article''] published to mark the 50th anniversary of the murders committed by Speck * [https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-richard-speck-chicago-mass-murder-victims-20200815-ofyebzxw5jgxrloxvxe4xmezwq-story.html Image gallery] pertaining to the case {{Portal bar|1960s|Biography|Crime|Illinois}} {{Mass stabbings before 2010}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Speck, Richard}} [[Category:1941 births]] [[Category:1991 deaths]] [[Category:20th-century American criminals]] [[Category:American male criminals]] [[Category:American mass murderers]] [[Category:American people convicted of murder]] [[Category:American people who died in prison custody]] [[Category:American prisoners sentenced to death]] [[Category:American rapists]] [[Category:Criminals from Chicago]] [[Category:Deaths from coronary artery disease]] [[Category:Male murderers]] [[Category:People convicted of murder by Illinois]] [[Category:People from Warren County, Illinois]] [[Category:People with obsessive-compulsive personality disorder]] [[Category:People with traumatic brain injuries]] [[Category:Prisoners sentenced to death by Illinois]] [[Category:Prisoners who died in Illinois detention]] [[Category:Violence against women in Illinois]] [[Category:1960s in Chicago]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=1259217829</id> <title>Donald Trump</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=1259217829"/> <updated>2024-11-24T00:34:52Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: restore <hr /> <div>{{Short description|President-elect and 45th president of the United States}} {{Other uses|Donald Trump (disambiguation)|Trump (disambiguation)}} {{pp-extended|small=yes}} {{Use American English|date=November 2020}} {{Use mdy dates|date=November 2024}} {{bots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}&lt;!-- Per [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 25. --&gt; {{Infobox officeholder | image = Donald Trump official portrait.jpg&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE the picture without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 1. --&gt; | alt = Official White House presidential portrait. Head shot of Trump smiling in front of the U.S. flag, wearing a dark blue suit jacket with American flag lapel pin, white shirt, and light blue necktie. | caption = Official portrait, 2017 | office = [[President-elect of the United States]] | vicepresident = [[JD Vance]] (elect) | term_start = January 20, 2025 | succeeding = [[Joe Biden]] | order2 = 45th&lt;!--&amp; 47th--&gt;&lt;!-- DO NOT ADD A LINK. Please discuss any proposal on the talk page first. Most recent discussion at [[Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 65#Link-ifying &quot;45th&quot; in the Infobox?]] had a weak consensus to keep the status-quo (no link). --&gt; | office2 = President of the United States | vicepresident2 = [[Mike Pence]] | term_start2 = January 20, 2017 | term_end2 = January 20, 2021 | predecessor2 = [[Barack Obama]] | successor2 = Joe Biden &lt;!--| term_start3 = January 20, 2025 | vicepresident3 = [[JD Vance]] | predecessor3 = [[Joe Biden]] --&gt; | birth_name = Donald John Trump | birth_date = {{Birth date and age|1946|6|14}} | birth_place = [[Queens]], New York City, U.S.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE (or add to) this location without prior consensus; please see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 2. --&gt; | party = [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] (1987–1999, 2009–2011, 2012–present) | otherparty = {{plainlist| * [[Reform Party of the United States of America|Reform]] (1999–2001) * [[Democratic Party (United States)|Democratic]] (2001–2009) * [[Independent politician|Independent]] (2011–2012) }} | spouse = {{plainlist| * {{marriage|[[Ivana Zelníčková]]|April 9, 1977|December 11, 1990|end=divorced}} * {{marriage|[[Marla Maples]]|December 20, 1993|June 8, 1999|end=divorced}} * {{marriage|[[Melania Knauss]]|January 22, 2005}} }} | children = {{flatlist| * [[Donald Jr.]] * [[Ivanka Trump|Ivanka]] * [[Eric Trump|Eric]] * [[Tiffany Trump|Tiffany]] * [[Barron Trump|Barron]] }} | mother = [[Mary Anne MacLeod]] | father = [[Fred Trump]] | relatives = [[Trump family]] | awards = [[List of awards and honors received by Donald Trump|Full list]] | alma_mater = [[University of Pennsylvania]] ([[Bachelor of Science|BS]])&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE this college or diploma without prior consensus, see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 63. --&gt; | net_worth = &lt;!-- Keep empty, per [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 47. --&gt; | occupation = {{hlist|[[Political career of Donald Trump|Politician]]|[[Business career of Donald Trump|businessman]]|[[Media career of Donald Trump|media personality]]}} | signature = Donald Trump (Presidential signature).svg | signature_alt = Donald J. Trump stylized autograph, in ink | website = {{#invoke:list|unbulleted|{{URL|https://www.donaldjtrump.com|Campaign website}}|{{URL|https://www.trumplibrary.gov/|Presidential library}}|{{URL|https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/|White House archives}}}} | module = {{Listen|pos=center|embed=yes|filename=Donald Trump speaks on declaration of Covid-19 as a Global Pandemic by the World Health Organization.ogg|title=Donald Trump's voice|type=speech|description=Donald Trump speaks on the declaration of [[COVID-19 pandemic|COVID-19 as a global pandemic]] by the [[World Health Organization]].&lt;br /&gt;Recorded March 11, 2020}} }} {{Donald Trump series}} &lt;!-- NOTE: Changes to the lead are regularly discussed on the talk page. DO NOT EDIT WAR. If you make a change that is reverted, please open a discussion or contribute to an existing one, per [[WP:BRD]]. Consensus items marked &quot;DO NOT CHANGE&quot; require prior discussion. If you add or remove a sentence with a section link, please also add or remove the hidden reminder following the section heading. --&gt; '''Donald John Trump''' (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th [[president of the United States]] from 2017 to 2021.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 50. --&gt; He won the [[2024 United States presidential election|2024 election]] as the nominee of the [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican Party]] and is now the [[president-elect of the United States]]. He is scheduled to begin [[Second presidency of Donald Trump|his second term]] on January&amp;nbsp;20, 2025. Trump graduated with a [[bachelor's degree]] in economics from the [[University of Pennsylvania]] in 1968. After becoming president of the family real estate business in 1971, he renamed it [[the Trump Organization]]. After a series of bankruptcies in the 1990s, [[#Side ventures|he launched side ventures]], mostly licensing the Trump name. From 2004 to 2015, he produced and hosted the reality television series ''[[The Apprentice (American TV series)|The Apprentice]]''. In 2015, Trump launched [[#Election of 2016|a presidential campaign]], which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement. Trump won the [[2016 United States presidential election|2016 presidential election]] and became the first U.S. president without prior military or government service.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding 6 words without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 8. --&gt; His election and policies [[Protests against Donald Trump|sparked numerous protests]]&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding 7 words without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 20. --&gt;. In his first term, he ordered [[Executive Order 13769|a travel ban]] targeting Muslims and refugees, funded the [[Trump wall]] expanding the U.S.–Mexico border wall, and implemented [[Trump administration family separation policy|a family separation policy]] at the border.&lt;!-- This sentence must contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban, the wall, and the family separation policy; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 52. --&gt; He rolled back more than 100 environmental policies and regulations, signed the [[Tax Cuts and Jobs Act]] of 2017,{{efn|This cut taxes and eliminated, effective 2019, the [[Individual shared responsibility provision|individual mandate]] penalty of the [[Affordable Care Act]].}} and appointed three justices to the Supreme Court.{{efn|[[Neil Gorsuch]] (2017), [[Brett Kavanaugh]] (2018), and [[Amy Coney Barrett]] (2020)}} Trump initiated a trade war with China, withdrew the U.S. from several international agreements,{{efn|Most notably, the proposed [[Trans-Pacific Partnership]] trade agreement (withdrew in 2017), the [[Paris Agreement]] on climate change (withdrew in 2020), and the [[Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action|Iran nuclear deal]] (withdrew in 2018)}} and met with North Korean leader [[Kim Jong Un]] but failed to make progress on denuclearization.&lt;!-- DO NOT REMOVE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 44. --&gt; He downplayed the severity of the [[COVID-19 pandemic in the United States|COVID-19 pandemic]]. Trump was impeached [[First impeachment of Donald Trump|in 2019]] for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress, and [[Second impeachment of Donald Trump|in 2021]] for incitement of insurrection. The Senate acquitted him in both cases. Many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, racist, and misogynistic.&lt;!--DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus, see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], items 30 and 51.--&gt; He [[#Promotion of conspiracy theories|promoted conspiracy theories]] and [[False or misleading statements by Donald Trump|made many false and misleading statements]] during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics.&lt;!--DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], items 49 and 53.--&gt; After his first term, [[Historical rankings of presidents of the United States|scholars and historians ranked him]] as one of the worst presidents in American history.&lt;!--DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 54.--&gt; Trump lost the [[2020 United States presidential election|2020 presidential election]] but refused to concede, falsely claiming widespread electoral fraud and [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|attempting to overturn the results]], including facilitating the [[January&amp;nbsp;6 United States Capitol attack]]. In 2024, [[Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York|he was found guilty of falsifying business records]],{{efn|Related to [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|his hush money payment]] to adult film actress [[Stormy Daniels]]}} making him the first U.S. president to be convicted of a felony. He faced more felony indictments related to [[FBI investigation into Donald Trump's handling of government documents|his mishandling of classified documents]] and interference in the 2020 election. {{TOC limit|4}} == Early life, education, family == {{Further|Family of Donald Trump}} [[File:Donald Trump NYMA.jpg|upright=0.7|thumb|left|alt=A black-and-white photograph of Trump as a teenager, smiling, wearing a dark pseudo-military uniform with various badges and a light-colored stripe crossing his right shoulder|Trump at [[New York Military Academy]], 1964]] &lt;!-- DO NOT MOVE this image to the right. Depending on user configuration, the infobox+navbox may push the photo down, making it adjacent to unrelated prose. --&gt; Trump was born on June&amp;nbsp;14, 1946, at [[Jamaica Hospital]] in [[Queens]], New York City, the fourth child of [[Fred Trump]] and [[Mary Anne MacLeod Trump]].{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|pp=30, 37}} He is of German and Scottish descent.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=v}} He grew up with older siblings [[Maryanne Trump Barry|Maryanne]], [[Fred Trump Jr.|Fred Jr.]], and Elizabeth and younger brother [[Robert Trump|Robert]] in the wealthy [[Jamaica Estates]] neighborhood of Queens.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/us/politics/donald-trumps-old-queens-neighborhood-now-a-melting-pot-was-seen-as-a-cloister.html|title=Donald Trump's Old Queens Neighborhood Contrasts With the Diverse Area Around It|first=Jason|last=Horowitz|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=September 22, 2015|access-date=November 7, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; He attended the private [[Kew-Forest School]] through seventh grade{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|pp=33, 38}} and [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school, from eighth through twelfth grade.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA38 38]}}&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Schwartzman|first1=Paul|last2=Miller|first2=Michael E.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html|title=Confident. Incorrigible. Bully: Little Donny was a lot like candidate Donald Trump|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 22, 2016|access-date=June 2, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1964, Trump enrolled at [[Fordham University]]. Two years later, he transferred to the [[Wharton School]] of the [[University of Pennsylvania]],{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|pp=45, 47}} graduating in May 1968 with a Bachelor of Science in economics.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://archives.upenn.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/commencement-program-1968.pdf|pages=19–21|title=Two Hundred and Twelfth Commencement for the Conferring of Degrees|work=[[University of Pennsylvania]]|date=May 20, 1968|access-date=March 31, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2015, he threatened his high school, colleges, and the [[College Board]] with legal action if they released his academic records.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last=Ashford|first=Grace|date=February 27, 2019|title=Michael Cohen Says Trump Told Him to Threaten Schools Not to Release Grades|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/politics/trump-school-grades.html|work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1977, Trump married Czech model [[Ivana Zelníčková]].{{sfn|Blair|2015|p=300}} They had three children: [[Donald Jr.]] (born 1977), [[Ivanka Trump|Ivanka]] (1981), and [[Eric Trump|Eric]] (1984). The couple divorced in 1990, following his affair with actress [[Marla Maples]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Baron |first=James |date=December 12, 1990 |title=Trumps Get Divorce; Next, Who Gets What? |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/12/nyregion/trumps-get-divorce-next-who-gets-what.html |access-date=March 5, 2023 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He and Maples married in 1993 and divorced in 1999. They have one daughter, [[Tiffany Trump|Tiffany]] (born 1993), who Maples raised in California.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Hafner |first=Josh |date=July 19, 2016 |title=Get to know Donald's other daughter: Tiffany Trump |url=https://usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/07/19/who-is-tiffany-trump/87321708/ |access-date=July 10, 2022 |work=[[USA Today]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2005, he married Slovenian model [[Melania Knauss]].{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=266}} They have one son, [[Barron Trump|Barron]] (born 2006).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |date=July 2, 2021 |title=Donald Trump Fast Facts |url=https://cnn.com/2013/07/04/us/donald-trump-fast-facts/ |access-date=September 29, 2021 |publisher=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Personal life== === Health habits === Trump says he has never drunk alcohol, smoked cigarettes, or used drugs.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 67. --&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/30/us/trump-biden-alcohol.html|title=In Trump and Biden, a Choice of Teetotalers for President|last=Nagourney|first=Adam|date=October 30, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]|accessdate=February 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/kavanaugh-likes-beer--but-trump-is-a-teetotaler-he-doesnt-like-drinkers/2018/10/02/783f585c-c674-11e8-b1ed-1d2d65b86d0c_story.html|title=Kavanaugh likes beer — but Trump is a teetotaler: 'He doesn't like drinkers.'|last1=Parker|first1=Ashley|last2=Rucker|first2=Philip|date=October 2, 2018|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|access-date=February 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; He sleeps about four or five hours a night.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 67. --&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://globalnews.ca/news/3970379/donald-trump-sleep-hours-night/|title=Donald Trump sleeps 4–5 hours each night; he's not the only famous 'short sleeper'|last=Dangerfield|first=Katie|date=January 17, 2018|work=[[Global News]]|accessdate=February 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal|first1=Douglas|last1=Almond|first2=Xinming|last2=Du|journal=[[Economics Letters]]|title=Later bedtimes predict President Trump's performance|volume=197|doi=10.1016/j.econlet.2020.109590|date=December 2020|pmid=33012904 |pmc=7518119 | issn=0165-1765}}&lt;/ref&gt; He has called golfing his &quot;primary form of exercise&quot;, but usually does not walk the course.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2018/07/14/donald-trump-exercise-golf-cart-turnberry-110166/|title=Donald Trump says he gets most of his exercise from golf, then uses cart at Turnberry|work=Golf News Net|date=July 14, 2018|access-date=July 4, 2019|first=Ryan|last=Ballengee}}&lt;/ref&gt; He considers exercise a waste of energy because he believes the body is &quot;like a battery, with a finite amount of energy&quot;, which is depleted by exercise.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/trump-thinks-that-exercising-too-much-uses-up-the-bodys-finite-energy/2017/05/12/bb0b9bda-365d-11e7-b4ee-434b6d506b37_story.html|first=Rachael|last=Rettner|title=Trump thinks that exercising too much uses up the body's 'finite' energy|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=May 14, 2017|access-date=September 29, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{sfn|O'Donnell|Rutherford|1991|p=133}} In 2015, his campaign released a letter from his longtime personal physician, [[Harold Bornstein]], stating that he would &quot;be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;dictation&quot;&gt;{{cite news|first1=Alex|last1=Marquardt|first2=Lawrence III|last2=Crook|title=Exclusive: Bornstein claims Trump dictated the glowing health letter|url=https://cnn.com/2018/05/01/politics/harold-bornstein-trump-letter/|publisher=[[CNN]]|date=May 1, 2018|access-date=May 20, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2018, Bornstein said Trump had dictated the contents of the letter and that three of Trump's agents had seized his medical records in a February 2017 raid on the doctor's office.&lt;ref name=&quot;dictation&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-doc-says-trump-bodyguard-lawyer-raided-his-office-took-n870351|title=Trump doctor Harold Bornstein says bodyguard, lawyer 'raided' his office, took medical files|last=Schecter|first=Anna|date=May 1, 2018|publisher=[[NBC News]]|access-date=June 6, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Wealth === {{Main|Wealth of Donald Trump}} [[File:Ivana Trump shakes hands with Fahd of Saudi Arabia.jpg|thumb|upright=1.2|Trump (rightmost) and wife Ivana in the receiving line of a state dinner for King [[Fahd of Saudi Arabia]] in 1985, with U.S. president [[Ronald Reagan]] and First Lady [[Nancy Reagan]]|alt=Ivana Trump and King Fahd shake hands, with Ronald Reagan standing next to them smiling. All are in black formal attire.]] In 1982, Trump made the initial ''[[Forbes]]'' list of wealthy people for holding a share of his family's estimated $200&amp;nbsp;million net worth (equivalent to ${{Inflation|US|200|1982}}&amp;nbsp;million in {{Inflation/year|US}}).{{Inflation/fn|US}} His losses in the 1980s dropped him from the list between 1990 and 1995.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/23/business/yourmoney/whats-he-really-worth.html|title=What's He Really Worth?|first=Timothy L.|last=O'Brien|author-link=Timothy L. O'Brien|access-date=February 25, 2016|date=October 23, 2005|work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; After filing the mandatory financial disclosure report with the [[Federal Election Commission|FEC]] in July 2015, he announced a net worth of about $10&amp;nbsp;billion. Records released by the FEC showed at least $1.4&amp;nbsp;billion in assets and $265&amp;nbsp;million in liabilities.&lt;ref name=&quot;disclosure&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Diamond|first1=Jeremy|last2=Frates|first2=Chris|url=https://cnn.com/2015/07/22/politics/donald-trump-personal-financial-disclosure/|title=Donald Trump's 92-page financial disclosure released|work=[[CNN]]|date=July 22, 2015|access-date=September 14, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; ''Forbes'' estimated his net worth dropped by $1.4&amp;nbsp;billion between 2015 and 2018.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-forbes-wealthiest-people-in-the-us-list-2018-10|title=Trump has fallen 138 spots on Forbes' wealthiest-Americans list, his net worth down over $1 billion, since he announced his presidential bid in 2015|work=[[Business Insider]]|date=October 3, 2018|first=John|last=Walsh|access-date=October 12, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; In their 2024 billionaires ranking, his net worth was estimated to be $2.3&amp;nbsp;billion (1,438th in the world).&lt;!-- Update preceding values annually per [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 5. Otherwise, DO NOT CHANGE without prior consensus. --&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.forbes.com/profile/donald-trump/?list=billionaires|title=Profile Donald Trump|work=[[Forbes]]|year=2024|access-date=March 28, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2018, journalist Jonathan Greenberg reported that Trump had called him in 1984 pretending to be a fictional Trump Organization official named &quot;[[John Barron (pseudonym)|John Barron]]&quot;. Greenberg said that, to get a higher ranking on the [[Forbes 400|''Forbes'' 400]] list of wealthy Americans, Trump, speaking as &quot;Barron&quot;, falsely asserted that Donald Trump owned more than 90&amp;nbsp;percent of his father's business. Greenberg also wrote that ''Forbes'' had vastly overestimated Trump's wealth and wrongly included him on the 1982, 1983, and 1984 rankings.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=April 20, 2018|access-date=September 29, 2021|first=Jonathan|last=Greenberg|title=Trump lied to me about his wealth to get onto the Forbes 400. Here are the tapes.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/trump-lied-to-me-about-his-wealth-to-get-onto-the-forbes-400-here-are-the-tapes/2018/04/20/ac762b08-4287-11e8-8569-26fda6b404c7_story.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump has often said he began his career with &quot;a small loan of a million dollars&quot; from his father and that he had to pay it back with interest.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/26/donald-trump-my-dad-gave-me-a-small-loan-of-1-million-to-get-started.html|title=Donald Trump: My dad gave me 'a small loan' of $1 million to get started|publisher=[[CNBC]]|first=Scott|last=Stump|date=October 26, 2015|access-date=November 13, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; He was a millionaire by age eight, borrowed at least $60&amp;nbsp;million from his father, largely failed to repay those loans, and received another $413&amp;nbsp;million (2018 dollars adjusted for inflation) from his father's company.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Barstow|first1=David|author-link1=David Barstow|last2=Craig|first2=Susanne|author-link2=Susanne Craig|last3=Buettner|first3=Russ|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-wealth-fred-trump.html|title=11 Takeaways From The Times's Investigation into Trump's Wealth|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=October 2, 2018|access-date=October 3, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Tax_Schemes&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html|title=Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes as He Reaped Riches From His Father|work=[[The New York Times]]|last1=Barstow|first1=David|author-link1=David Barstow|last2=Craig|first2=Susanne|author-link2=Susanne Craig|last3=Buettner|first3=Russ|date=October 2, 2018|access-date=October 2, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2018, he and his family were reported to have committed tax fraud, and the [[New York State Department of Taxation and Finance]] started an investigation.&lt;ref name=&quot;Tax_Schemes&quot;/&gt; His investments underperformed the stock and New York property markets.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=From the Tower to the White House|newspaper=[[The Economist]]|date=February 20, 2016|access-date=February 29, 2016|url=https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21693230-enigma-presidential-candidates-business-affairs-tower-white|quote=Mr Trump's performance has been mediocre compared with the stockmarket and property in New York.}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Ana|last=Swanson|title=The myth and the reality of Donald Trump's business empire|date=February 29, 2016|access-date=September 29, 2021|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/29/the-myth-and-the-reality-of-donald-trumps-business-empire/}}&lt;/ref&gt; ''Forbes'' estimated in October 2018 that his net worth declined from $4.5&amp;nbsp;billion in 2015 to $3.1&amp;nbsp;billion in 2017 and his product-licensing income from $23&amp;nbsp;million to $3&amp;nbsp;million.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Alexander|first1=Dan|last2=Peterson-Whithorn|first2=Chase|url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2018/10/02/how-trump-is-tryingand-failingto-get-rich-off-his-presidency/|title=How Trump Is Trying—And Failing—To Get Rich Off His Presidency|work=[[Forbes]]|date=October 2, 2018|access-date=September 29, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Trump's tax returns]] from 1985 to 1994 show net losses totaling $1.17&amp;nbsp;billion. The losses were higher than those of almost every other American taxpayer. The losses in 1990 and 1991, more than $250&amp;nbsp;million each year, were more than double those of the nearest taxpayers. In 1995, his reported losses were $915.7&amp;nbsp;million (equivalent to ${{Inflation|US|.9157|1995|r=2}}&amp;nbsp;billion in {{Inflation/year|US}}).&lt;ref name=Buettner-190508&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/05/07/us/politics/donald-trump-taxes.html|title=Decade in the Red: Trump Tax Figures Show Over $1 Billion in Business Losses|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=May 7, 2019|access-date=May 8, 2019|first1=Russ|last1=Buettner|first2=Susanne|last2=Craig|author-link2=Susanne Craig}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/trump-taxes/588967/|title=The Secret That Was Hiding in Trump's Taxes|work=[[The Atlantic]]|date=May 8, 2019|access-date=May 8, 2019|first=Conor|last=Friedersdorf|author-link=Conor Friedersdorf}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Inflation/fn|US}} In 2020, ''The New York Times'' obtained Trump's tax information extending over two decades. Its reporters found that he reported losses of hundreds of millions of dollars. Since 2010 he had also failed to pay back $287&amp;nbsp;million in loans. During the 15 years prior to 2020, using [[tax credits]] for business losses, he paid no income taxes in 10 of those years and $750 each in 2016 and 2017. He balanced his businesses' losses by selling and borrowing against assets, including a $100&amp;nbsp;million [[Trump Tower#2000s to present|mortgage on Trump Tower (refinanced in 2022)]] and the liquidation of over $200&amp;nbsp;million in stocks and bonds. He personally guaranteed $421&amp;nbsp;million in debt, most of which is due by 2024.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Buettner|first1=Russ|last2=Craig|first2=Susanne|author-link2=Susanne Craig|last3=McIntire|first3=Mike|date=September 27, 2020|title=Long-concealed Records Show Trump's Chronic Losses And Years Of Tax Avoidance|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html|access-date=September 28, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; {{as of|2021|10|lc=n}}, Trump had over $1.3&amp;nbsp;billion in debts, much of which is secured by his assets.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[Forbes]]|date=October 7, 2021|title=Trump's Debt Now Totals An Estimated $1.3 Billion|url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2021/10/07/trumps-debt-now-totals-an-estimated-13-billion/?sh=67fa55564575|first=Dan|last=Alexander|access-date=December 21, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2020, he owed $640&amp;nbsp;million to banks and trust organizations, including [[Bank of China]], [[Deutsche Bank]], and [[UBS]], and approximately $450&amp;nbsp;million to unknown creditors. The value of his assets exceeds his debt.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Alexander|first=Dan|title=Donald Trump Has at Least $1 Billion in Debt, More Than Twice The Amount He Suggested|url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2020/10/16/donald-trump-has-at-least-1-billion-in-debt-more-than-twice-the-amount-he-suggested/|access-date=October 17, 2020|work=[[Forbes]]|date=October 16, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Racial views === {{Main|Racial views of Donald Trump}} Many of Trump's comments and actions have been described as racist.&lt;ref&gt;Multiple sources: * {{cite web |last=Lopez |first=German |date=February 14, 2019 |title=Donald Trump's long history of racism, from the 1970s to 2019 |url=https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racist-racism-history |access-date=June 15, 2019 |work=[[Vox (website)|Vox]]}} * {{cite news |last=Desjardins |first=Lisa |date=January 12, 2018 |title=Every moment in Trump's charged relationship with race |url=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/every-moment-donald-trumps-long-complicated-history-race |access-date=January 13, 2018 |work=[[PBS NewsHour]]}} * {{cite news |last=Dawsey |first=Josh |author-link=Josh Dawsey |date=January 11, 2018 |title=Trump's history of making offensive comments about nonwhite immigrants |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-attacks-protections-for-immigrants-from-shithole-countries-in-oval-office-meeting/2018/01/11/bfc0725c-f711-11e7-91af-31ac729add94_story.html |access-date=January 11, 2018 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}} * {{cite news |last=Weaver |first=Aubree Eliza |date=January 12, 2018 |title=Trump's 'shithole' comment denounced across the globe |url=https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/12/trump-shithole-comment-reaction-337926 |access-date=January 13, 2018 |work=[[Politico]] |ref={{harvid|Weaver|2018b}}}} * {{cite news |last1=Stoddard |first1=Ed |last2=Mfula |first2=Chris |date=January 12, 2018 |title=Africa calls Trump racist after 'shithole' remark |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-immigration-reaction/africa-calls-trump-racist-after-shithole-remark-idUSKBN1F11VC |access-date=October 1, 2019 |work=[[Reuters]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |date=July 30, 2019 |title=Trump: 'I am the least racist person there is anywhere in the world' – video |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/jul/30/trump-claims-least-racist-person-in-the-world |access-date=November 29, 2021 |work=[[The Guardian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Marcelo |first=Philip |date=July 28, 2023 |title=Donald Trump was accused of racism long before his presidency, despite what online posts claim |url=https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-trump-racism-election-obama-018824651613 |access-date=May 10, 2024 |website=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In national polling, about half of respondents said that he is racist; a greater proportion believed that he emboldened racists.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Cummins |first=William |date=July 31, 2019 |title=A majority of voters say President Donald Trump is a racist, Quinnipiac University poll finds |url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/07/31/donald-trump-racist-majority-say-quinnipiac-university-poll/1877168001/ |access-date=December 21, 2023 |work=[[USA Today]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |date=July 3, 2018 |title=Harsh Words For U.S. Family Separation Policy, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Voters Have Dim View Of Trump, Dems On Immigration |url=https://poll.qu.edu/Poll-Release-Legacy?releaseid=2554 |access-date=July 5, 2018 |work=[[Quinnipiac University Polling Institute]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Several studies and surveys found that racist attitudes fueled his political ascent and were more important than economic factors in determining the allegiance of Trump voters.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=McElwee |first1=Sean |last2=McDaniel |first2=Jason |date=May 8, 2017 |title=Economic Anxiety Didn't Make People Vote Trump, Racism Did |url=https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/economic-anxiety-didnt-make-people-vote-trump-racism-did/ |access-date=January 13, 2018 |work=[[The Nation]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Lopez |first=German |date=December 15, 2017 |title=The past year of research has made it very clear: Trump won because of racial resentment |url=https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/15/16781222/trump-racism-economic-anxiety-study |access-date=January 14, 2018 |work=[[Vox (website)|Vox]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Racist and [[Islamophobic]] attitudes are a powerful indicator of support for Trump.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |last1=Lajevardi |first1=Nazita |last2=Oskooii |first2=Kassra A. R. |year=2018 |title=Old-Fashioned Racism, Contemporary Islamophobia, and the Isolation of Muslim Americans in the Age of Trump |journal=Journal of Race, Ethnicity, and Politics |volume=3 |issue=1 |pages=112–152 |doi=10.1017/rep.2017.37}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1975, Trump settled a 1973 Department of Justice lawsuit that alleged [[housing discrimination]] against black renters.&lt;ref name=&quot;Mahler&quot;/&gt; He has also been accused of racism for insisting a group of black and Latino teenagers were guilty of raping a white woman in the 1989 [[Central Park jogger case]], even after they were exonerated by DNA evidence in 2002. As of 2019, he maintained this position.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Bohlen |first=Celestine |date=May 12, 1989 |title=The Park Attack, Weeks Later: An Anger That Will Not Let Go |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/18/nyregion/central-park-five-trump.html |access-date=March 5, 2024 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2011, when he was reportedly considering a presidential run, Trump became the leading proponent of the racist [[Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories|&quot;birther&quot; conspiracy theory]], alleging that Barack Obama, the first black U.S. president, was not born in the U.S.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=John |first=Arit |date=June 23, 2020 |title=From birtherism to 'treason': Trump's false allegations against Obama |url=https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-06-23/trump-obamagate-birtherism-false-allegations |access-date=February 17, 2023 |work=[[Los Angeles Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Farley |first=Robert |date=February 14, 2011 |title=Donald Trump says people who went to school with Obama never saw him |url=https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/feb/14/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-people-who-went-school-obama-nev/ |access-date=January 31, 2020 |work=[[PolitiFact]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In April, he claimed credit for pressuring the White House to publish the &quot;long-form&quot; birth certificate, which he considered fraudulent, and later said this made him &quot;very popular&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Madison |first=Lucy |date=April 27, 2011 |title=Trump takes credit for Obama birth certificate release, but wonders 'is it real?' |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-takes-credit-for-obama-birth-certificate-release-but-wonders-is-it-real/ |access-date=May 9, 2011 |work=[[CBS News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Keneally |first=Meghan |date=September 18, 2015 |title=Donald Trump's History of Raising Birther Questions About President Obama |url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trumps-history-raising-birther-questions-president-obama/story?id=33861832 |access-date=August 27, 2016 |work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In September 2016, amid pressure, he acknowledged that Obama was born in the U.S.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Haberman |first1=Maggie |author-link1=Maggie Haberman |last2=Rappeport |first2=Alan |author-link2=Alan Rappeport |date=September 16, 2016 |title=Trump Drops False 'Birther' Theory, but Floats a New One: Clinton Started It |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/politics/donald-trump-birther-obama.html |access-date=October 12, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2017, he reportedly expressed birther views privately.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Haberman |first1=Maggie |author-link1=Maggie Haberman |last2=Martin |first2=Jonathan |author-link2=Jonathan Martin (journalist) |date=November 28, 2017 |title=Trump Once Said the 'Access Hollywood' Tape Was Real. Now He's Not Sure. |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/28/us/politics/trump-access-hollywood-tape.html |access-date=June 11, 2020 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; According to an analysis in ''[[Political Science Quarterly]]'', Trump made &quot;explicitly racist appeals to whites&quot; during his 2016 presidential campaign.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |last1=Schaffner |first1=Brian F. |author-link1=Brian Schaffner |last2=Macwilliams |first2=Matthew |last3=Nteta |first3=Tatishe |date=March 2018 |title=Understanding White Polarization in the 2016 Vote for President: The Sobering Role of Racism and Sexism |journal=[[Political Science Quarterly]] |volume=133 |issue=1 |pages=9–34 |doi=10.1002/polq.12737 |doi-access=free}}&lt;/ref&gt; In particular, his campaign launch speech drew widespread criticism for claiming Mexican immigrants were &quot;bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists&quot;;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Reilly |first=Katie |date=August 31, 2016 |title=Here Are All the Times Donald Trump Insulted Mexico |url=https://time.com/4473972/donald-trump-mexico-meeting-insult/ |access-date=January 13, 2018 |magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Wolf |first=Z. Byron |date=April 6, 2018 |title=Trump basically called Mexicans rapists again |url=https://cnn.com/2018/04/06/politics/trump-mexico-rapists/ |access-date=June 28, 2022 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; in response, NBC fired him from ''Celebrity Apprentice''.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2015-08-13 |title=NBC Officially Fires Trump From 'Celebrity Apprentice' |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/tv/nbc-officially-fires-trump-celebrity-apprentice-n409381 |access-date=2024-11-09 |website=[[NBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; His later comments about a Mexican-American judge presiding over a civil suit regarding [[Trump University]] were also criticized as racist.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Steinhauer |first1=Jennifer |author-link1=Jennifer Steinhauer |last2=Martin |first2=Jonathan |author-link2=Jonathan Martin (journalist) |last3=Herszenhorn |first3=David M. |date=June 7, 2016 |title=Paul Ryan Calls Donald Trump's Attack on Judge 'Racist', but Still Backs Him |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/08/us/politics/paul-ryan-donald-trump-gonzalo-curiel.html |access-date=January 13, 2018 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:President Trump Gives a Statement on the Infrastructure Discussion.webm|thumb|start=13:11|Answering questions about the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville]] Trump's comments on the 2017 [[Unite the Right rally]], condemning &quot;this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides&quot; and stating that there were &quot;very fine people on both sides&quot;, were widely criticized as implying a [[moral equivalence]] between the [[white supremacist]] demonstrators and the counter-protesters.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Merica |first=Dan |date=August 26, 2017 |title=Trump: 'Both sides' to blame for Charlottesville |url=https://cnn.com/2017/08/15/politics/trump-charlottesville-delay/ |access-date=January 13, 2018 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Johnson |first1=Jenna |last2=Wagner |first2=John |date=August 12, 2017 |title=Trump condemns Charlottesville violence but doesn't single out white nationalists |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-condemns-charlottesville-violence-but-doesnt-single-out-white-nationalists/2017/08/12/933a86d6-7fa3-11e7-9d08-b79f191668ed_story.html |access-date=October 22, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Kessler |first=Glenn |author-link=Glenn Kessler (journalist) |date=May 8, 2020 |title=The 'very fine people' at Charlottesville: Who were they? |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/05/08/very-fine-people-charlottesville-who-were-they-2/ |access-date=October 23, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;KruzelCharlottesville&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last=Holan |first=Angie Dobric |date=April 26, 2019 |title=In Context: Donald Trump's 'very fine people on both sides' remarks (transcript) |url=https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/apr/26/context-trumps-very-fine-people-both-sides-remarks/ |access-date=October 22, 2021 |work=[[PolitiFact]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In a January 2018 discussion of immigration legislation, Trump reportedly referred to El Salvador, Haiti, Honduras, and African nations as &quot;shithole countries&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Beauchamp |first=Zack |date=January 11, 2018 |title=Trump's &quot;shithole countries&quot; comment exposes the core of Trumpism |url=https://www.vox.com/2018/1/11/16880804/trump-shithole-countries-racism |access-date=January 11, 2018 |work=[[Vox (website)|Vox]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; His remarks were condemned as racist.&lt;ref name=&quot;Weaver-2018&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last=Weaver |first=Aubree Eliza |date=January 12, 2018 |title=Trump's 'shithole' comment denounced across the globe |url=https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/12/trump-shithole-comment-reaction-337926 |access-date=January 13, 2018 |work=[[Politico]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Wintour |first1=Patrick |author-link1=Patrick Wintour |last2=Burke |first2=Jason |author-link2=Jason Burke |last3=Livsey |first3=Anna |date=January 13, 2018 |title='There's no other word but racist': Trump's global rebuke for 'shithole' remark |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/12/unkind-divisive-elitist-international-outcry-over-trumps-shithole-countries-remark |access-date=January 13, 2018 |work=[[The Guardian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In July 2019, Trump tweeted that four Democratic congresswomen—all from minorities, three of whom are native-born Americans—should &quot;[[Go back where you came from|go back]]&quot; to the countries they &quot;came from&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Rogers |first1=Katie |last2=Fandos |first2=Nicholas |author-link2=Nicholas Fandos |date=July 14, 2019 |title=Trump Tells Congresswomen to 'Go Back' to the Countries They Came From |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/14/us/politics/trump-twitter-squad-congress.html |access-date=September 30, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Two days later the House of Representatives voted 240–187, mostly along party lines, to condemn his &quot;racist comments&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Mak |first=Tim |date=July 16, 2019 |title=House Votes To Condemn Trump's 'Racist Comments' |url=https://www.npr.org/2019/07/16/742236610/condemnation-of-president-delayed-by-debate-can-lawmakers-call-trump-tweets-raci |access-date=July 17, 2019 |work=[[NPR]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[White nationalist]] publications and social media praised his remarks, which continued over the following days.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Simon |first1=Mallory |last2=Sidner |first2=Sara |author-link2=Sara Sidner |date=July 16, 2019 |title=Trump said 'many people agree' with his racist tweets. These white supremacists certainly do. |url=https://cnn.com/2019/07/16/politics/white-supremacists-cheer-trump-racist-tweets-soh/ |access-date=July 20, 2019 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He continued to make similar remarks during his 2020 campaign.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Choi |first=Matthew |date=September 22, 2020 |title='She's telling us how to run our country': Trump again goes after Ilhan Omar's Somali roots |url=https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/22/trump-attacks-ilhan-omar-420267 |access-date=October 12, 2021 |work=[[Politico]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct === {{Main|Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations|Donald Trump Access Hollywood tape}} Trump has a history of belittling women when speaking to the media and on social media.&lt;ref name=&quot;clock&quot;&gt;{{cite journal |last1=Rothe |first1=Dawn L. |last2=Collins |first2=Victoria E. |date=November 17, 2019 |title=Turning Back the Clock? Violence against Women and the Trump Administration |journal=Victims &amp; Offenders |volume=14 |issue=8 |pages=965–978 |doi=10.1080/15564886.2019.1671284}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;demeans&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=Shear |first1=Michael D. |author-link1=Michael D. Shear |last2=Sullivan |first2=Eileen |author-link2=Eileen Sullivan |date=October 16, 2018 |title='Horseface,' 'Lowlife,' 'Fat, Ugly': How the President Demeans Women |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/us/politics/trump-women-insults.html |access-date=August 5, 2020 |newspaper=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He made lewd comments, disparaged women's physical appearances, and referred to them using derogatory epithets.&lt;ref name=&quot;demeans&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;mysTC&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last=Mahdawi |first=Arwa |date=May 10, 2023 |title='The more women accuse him, the better he does': the meaning and misogyny of the Trump-Carroll case |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/10/the-more-women-accuse-him-the-better-he-does-the-meaning-and-misogyny-of-the-trump-carroll-case |access-date=July 25, 2024 |newspaper=[[The Guardian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Prasad |first=Ritu |date=November 29, 2019 |title=How Trump talks about women – and does it matter? |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50563106 |access-date=August 5, 2020 |publisher=[[BBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Fieldstadt |first=Elisha |date=October 9, 2016 |title=Donald Trump Consistently Made Lewd Comments on 'The Howard Stern Show' |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/donald-trump-consistently-made-lewd-comments-howard-stern-show-n662581 |access-date=November 27, 2020 |publisher=[[NBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; At least 26 women publicly accused him of rape, kissing without consent, groping, looking under women's skirts, and walking in on naked teenage pageant contestants.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Nelson |first1=Libby |last2=McGann |first2=Laura |date=June 21, 2019 |title=E. Jean Carroll joins at least 21 other women in publicly accusing Trump of sexual assault or misconduct |url=https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/6/21/18701098/trump-accusers-sexual-assault-rape-e-jean-carroll |access-date=June 25, 2019 |work=[[Vox (website)|Vox]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Rupar |first=Aaron |date=October 9, 2019 |title=Trump faces a new allegation of sexually assaulting a woman at Mar-a-Lago |url=https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/10/9/20906567/trump-karen-johnson-sexual-assault-mar-a-lago-barry-levine-monique-el-faizy-book |access-date=April 27, 2020 |website=[[Vox (website)|Vox]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;no26&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last=Osborne |first=Lucy |date=September 17, 2020 |title='It felt like tentacles': the women who accuse Trump of sexual misconduct |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/17/amy-dorris-donald-trump-women-who-accuse-sexual-misconduct |access-date=June 6, 2024 |newspaper=[[The Guardian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He has denied the allegations.&lt;ref name=&quot;no26&quot;/&gt; In October 2016, two days before the [[2016 United States presidential debates#Second presidential debate (Washington University in St. Louis)|second presidential debate]], a 2005 &quot;[[hot mic]]&quot; recording surfaced in which [[Donald Trump Access Hollywood tape|Trump bragged on ''Access Hollywood'']] about groping women and kissing them without their consent, saying that &quot;when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. ... Grab 'em by the [[Pussy#Female genitalia|pussy]]&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Timm |first=Jane C. |date=October 7, 2016 |title=Trump caught on hot mic making lewd comments about women in 2005 |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-hot-mic-when-you-re-star-you-can-do-n662116 |access-date=June 10, 2018 |work=[[NBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; The incident's widespread media exposure led to his first public apology during the campaign&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Burns |first1=Alexander |author-link1=Alex Burns (journalist) |last2=Haberman |first2=Maggie |author-link2=Maggie Haberman |last3=Martin |first3=Jonathan |author-link3=Jonathan Martin (journalist) |date=October 7, 2016 |title=Donald Trump Apology Caps Day of Outrage Over Lewd Tape |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/us/politics/donald-trump-women.html |access-date=October 8, 2016 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and caused outrage across the political spectrum.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Hagen |first=Lisa |date=October 7, 2016 |title=Kaine on lewd Trump tapes: 'Makes me sick to my stomach' |url=https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/299895-kaine-on-lewd-trump-tapes-makes-me-sick-to-my-stomach |access-date=October 8, 2016 |work=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Business career == {{Main|Business career of Donald Trump}} {{Further|Business projects of Donald Trump in Russia|Tax returns of Donald Trump}} ===Real estate=== [[File:Donald Trump with model of Television City.jpg|thumb|upright|Trump in 1985 with a model of one of his aborted Manhattan development projects&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Handy|first=Bruce|url=https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/04/trump-tower-real-estate-projects/583243/|title=Trump Once Proposed Building a Castle on Madison Avenue|work=[[The Atlantic]]|date=April 1, 2019|access-date=July 28, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;]] Starting in 1968, Trump was employed at his father's real estate company, Trump Management, which owned racially segregated middle-class rental housing in New York City's outer boroughs.&lt;ref name=Mahler&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/us/politics/donald-trump-housing-race.html|title='No Vacancies' for Blacks: How Donald Trump Got His Start, and Was First Accused of Bias|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=August 27, 2016|access-date=January 13, 2018|last1=Mahler|first1=Jonathan|last2=Eder|first2=Steve}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Rich NYMag&quot;&gt;{{cite news|first=Frank|last=Rich|author-link=Frank Rich|title=The Original Donald Trump|url=https://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/04/frank-rich-roy-cohn-the-original-donald-trump.html|work=[[New York (magazine)|New York]]|date=April 30, 2018|access-date=May 8, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1971, his father made him president of the company and he began using the [[Trump Organization]] as an [[umbrella brand]].{{sfn|Blair|2015|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=uJifCgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA250 250]}} Between 1991 and 2009, he filed for [[Chapter 11]] bankruptcy protection for six of his businesses: the [[Plaza Hotel]] in Manhattan, the casinos in [[Atlantic City, New Jersey]], and the [[Trump Hotels &amp; Casino Resorts]] company.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Qiu|first=Linda|url=https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/jun/21/hillary-clinton/yep-donald-trumps-companies-have-declared-bankrupt/|title=Yep, Donald Trump's companies have declared bankruptcy...more than four times|work=[[PolitiFact]]|date=June 21, 2016|access-date=May 25, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; ====Manhattan and Chicago developments==== Trump attracted public attention in 1978 with the launch of his family's first Manhattan venture, the renovation of the derelict [[Grand Hyatt New York|Commodore Hotel]], adjacent to Grand Central Terminal.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://ny.curbed.com/2019/4/3/18290394/trump-grand-hyatt-nyc-commodore-hotel|work=[[Curbed]]|first=James|last=Nevius|date=April 3, 2019|title=The winding history of Donald Trump's first major Manhattan real estate project}}&lt;/ref&gt; The financing was facilitated by a $400&amp;nbsp;million city property tax abatement arranged for him by his father who also, jointly with [[Hyatt]], guaranteed a $70&amp;nbsp;million bank construction loan.&lt;ref name=&quot;Rich NYMag&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Glenn|last=Kessler|author-link=Glenn Kessler (journalist)|title=Trump's false claim he built his empire with a 'small loan' from his father|date=March 3, 2016|access-date=September 29, 2021|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/03/03/trumps-false-claim-he-built-his-empire-with-a-small-loan-from-his-father}}&lt;/ref&gt; The hotel reopened in 1980 as the [[Grand Hyatt New York|Grand Hyatt Hotel]],{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA84 84]}} and that same year, he obtained rights to develop [[Trump Tower]], a mixed-use skyscraper in Midtown Manhattan.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=The Expanding Empire of Donald Trump|date=April 8, 1984|access-date=September 29, 2021|first=William E.|last=Geist|author-link=Bill Geist|work=[[The New York Times Magazine]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/08/magazine/the-expanding-empire-of-donald-trump.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; The building houses the headquarters of the Trump Corporation and Trump's [[Political action committee|PAC]] and was his primary residence until 2019.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Jacobs|first1=Shayna|last2=Fahrenthold|first2=David A.|author-link2=David Fahrenthold|last3=O'Connell|first3=Jonathan|last4=Dawsey|first4=Josh|author-link4=Josh Dawsey|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-tower-pac-rent-campaign-finance/2021/09/02/dfeae19e-0b2f-11ec-9781-07796ffb56fe_story.html|title=Trump Tower's key tenants have fallen behind on rent and moved out. But Trump has one reliable customer: His own PAC.|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=September 3, 2021|access-date=February 15, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=moved&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/31/us/politics/trump-new-york-florida-primary-residence.html|title=Trump, Lifelong New Yorker, Declares Himself a Resident of Florida|work=[[The New York Times]]|last=Haberman|first=Maggie|author-link=Maggie Haberman|date=October 31, 2019|access-date=January 24, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1988, Trump acquired the Plaza Hotel with a loan from a consortium of sixteen banks.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/04/business/company-news-trump-revises-plaza-loan.html|title=Trump Revises Plaza Loan|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=November 4, 1992|access-date=May 23, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; The hotel filed for bankruptcy protection in 1992, and a reorganization plan was approved a month later, with the banks taking control of the property.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Trump's Plaza Hotel Bankruptcy Plan Approved|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=December 12, 1992|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1992/12/12/business/company-news-trump-s-plaza-hotel-bankruptcy-plan-approved.html|agency=[[Reuters]]|access-date=May 24, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1995, he defaulted on over $3&amp;nbsp;billion of bank loans, and the lenders seized the Plaza Hotel along with most of his other properties in a &quot;vast and humiliating restructuring&quot; that allowed him to avoid personal bankruptcy.&lt;ref name=&quot;plaza&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Segal|first=David|author-link=David Segal (reporter)|title=What Donald Trump's Plaza Deal Reveals About His White House Bid|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/17/business/what-donald-trumps-plaza-deal-reveals-about-his-white-house-bid.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=January 16, 2016|access-date=May 3, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1995/04/12/business/trump-is-selling-plaza-hotel-to-saudi-and-asian-investors.html|title=Trump Is Selling Plaza Hotel To Saudi and Asian Investors|work=[[The New York Times]]|first1=David|last1=Stout|author-link1=David Stout|first2=Kenneth N.|last2=Gilpin|date=April 12, 1995|access-date=July 18, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; The lead bank's attorney said of the banks' decision that they &quot;all agreed that he'd be better alive than dead&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;plaza&quot;/&gt; In 1996, Trump acquired and renovated the mostly vacant 71-story skyscraper at [[40 Wall Street]], later rebranded as the Trump Building.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=Lqf0CwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA298 298]}} In the early 1990s, he won the right to develop a {{convert|70|acre|ha|adj=on}} tract in the [[Lincoln Square, Manhattan|Lincoln Square]] neighborhood near the Hudson River. Struggling with debt from other ventures in 1994, he sold most of his interest in the project to Asian investors, who financed the project's completion, [[Riverside South, Manhattan|Riverside South]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/01/nyregion/trump-group-selling-west-side-parcel-for-18-billion.html|title=Trump Group Selling West Side Parcel for $1.8 billion|last=Bagli|first=Charles V.|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=June 1, 2005|access-date=May 17, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump's last major construction project was the 92-story mixed-use [[Trump International Hotel and Tower (Chicago)]] which opened in 2008. In 2024, the [[Trump International Hotel and Tower (Chicago)#Tax deductions|New York Times and ProPublica reported]] that the Internal Revenue Service was investigating whether he had twice written off losses incurred through construction cost overruns and lagging sales of residential units in the building he had declared to be worthless on his 2008 tax return.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Buettner|first1=Russ|last2=Kiel|first2=Paul|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/11/us/trump-taxes-audit-chicago.html|title=Trump May Owe $100 Million From Double-Dip Tax Breaks, Audit Shows|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=May 11, 2024|access-date=August 26, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Kiel|first1=Paul|last2=Buettner|first2=Russ|url=https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-irs-audit-chicago-hotel-taxes|title=IRS Audit of Trump Could Cost Former President More Than $100 Million|work=[[ProPublica]]|date=May 11, 2024|access-date=August 26, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Atlantic City casinos ==== [[File:Trump Taj Mahal, 2007.jpg|thumb|alt=The entrance of the Trump Taj Mahal, a casino in Atlantic City. It has motifs evocative of the Taj Mahal in India.|Entrance of the [[Trump Taj Mahal]] in [[Atlantic City]]]] In 1984, Trump opened [[Harrah's at Trump Plaza]], a hotel and casino, with financing and management help from the [[Holiday Corporation]].&lt;ref name=&quot;fall&quot;/&gt; It was unprofitable, and he paid Holiday $70&amp;nbsp;million in May 1986 to take sole control.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA128 128]}} In 1985, he bought the unopened Atlantic City Hilton Hotel and renamed it [[Trump Castle]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Saxon|first=Wolfgang|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1985/04/28/nyregion/trump-buys-hilton-s-hotel-in-atlantic-city.html|title=Trump Buys Hilton's Hotel in Atlantic City|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=April 28, 1986|access-date=May 25, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Both casinos filed for [[Chapter 11]] bankruptcy protection in 1992.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.upi.com/Archives/1992/03/09/Trumps-Castle-and-Plaza-file-for-bankruptcy/3105700117200/|title=Trump's Castle and Plaza file for bankruptcy|work=[[United Press International]]|date=March 9, 1992|access-date=May 25, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump bought a third Atlantic City venue in 1988, the [[Trump Taj Mahal]]. It was financed with $675&amp;nbsp;million in [[junk bonds]] and completed for $1.1&amp;nbsp;billion, opening in April 1990.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/08/business/trump-s-taj-open-at-last-with-a-scary-appetite.html|title=Trump's Taj – Open at Last, With a Scary Appetite|date=April 8, 1990|last=Glynn|first=Lenny|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=August 14, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA135 135]}} He filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in 1991. Under the provisions of the restructuring agreement, he gave up half his initial stake and personally guaranteed future performance.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/05/business/company-news-taj-mahal-is-out-of-bankruptcy.html|title=Company News; Taj Mahal is out of Bankruptcy|access-date=May 22, 2008|date=October 5, 1991}}&lt;/ref&gt; To reduce his $900&amp;nbsp;million of personal debt, he sold the [[Trump Shuttle]] airline; his megayacht, the ''[[Trump Princess]]'', which had been leased to his casinos and kept docked; and other businesses.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2011/04/29/fourth-times-a-charm-how-donald-trump-made-bankruptcy-work-for-him/|title=Fourth Time's A Charm: How Donald Trump Made Bankruptcy Work For Him|work=[[Forbes]]|date=May 29, 2011|access-date=January 27, 2022|last=O'Connor|first=Claire}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1995, Trump founded Trump Hotels &amp; Casino Resorts (THCR), which assumed ownership of the Trump Plaza.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Trump Plaza casino stock trades today on Big Board|work=[[The New York Times]]|first=Floyd|last=Norris|author-link=Floyd Norris|date=June 7, 1995|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/07/business/trump-plaza-casino-stock-trades-today-on-big-board.html|access-date=December 14, 2014}}&lt;/ref&gt; THCR purchased the Taj Mahal and the Trump Castle in 1996 and went bankrupt in 2004 and 2009, leaving him with 10&amp;nbsp;percent ownership.&lt;ref name=&quot;fall&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/08/16/donald-trump-atlantic-city-empire/|title=The Truth About the Rise and Fall of Donald Trump's Atlantic City Empire|work=[[Philadelphia (magazine)|Philadelphia]]|date=August 16, 2015|access-date=March 21, 2016|first=Dan|last=McQuade}}&lt;/ref&gt; He remained chairman until 2009.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://fortune.com/2016/03/10/trump-hotel-casinos-pay-failure/|title=How Donald Trump Made Millions Off His Biggest Business Failure|last=Tully|first=Shawn|date=March 10, 2016|work=[[Fortune (magazine)|Fortune]]|access-date=May 6, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Clubs ==== In 1985, Trump acquired the [[Mar-a-Lago]] estate in Palm Beach, Florida.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Peterson-Withorn|first=Chase|url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/chasewithorn/2018/04/23/donald-trump-has-gained-more-than-100-million-on-mar-a-lago/|title=Donald Trump Has Gained More Than $100 Million On Mar-a-Lago |work=[[Forbes]]|date=April 23, 2018|access-date=July 4, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1995, he converted the estate into a private club with an initiation fee and annual dues. He continued to use a wing of the house as a private residence.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.townandcountrymag.com/style/home-decor/a7144/mar-a-lago-history/|title=A History of Mar-a-Lago, Donald Trump's American Castle|last1=Dangremond|first1=Sam|last2=Kim|first2=Leena|date=December 22, 2017|work=[[Town &amp; Country (magazine)|Town &amp; Country]]|access-date=July 3, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; He declared the club his primary residence in 2019.&lt;ref name=moved/&gt; The Trump Organization began [[Donald Trump and golf|building and buying golf courses]] in 1999.&lt;ref name=&quot;CNN&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Garcia|first=Ahiza|title=Trump's 17 golf courses teed up: Everything you need to know|url=https://money.cnn.com/2016/12/29/news/donald-trump-golf-courses/|access-date=January 21, 2018|publisher=[[CNN Money]]|date=December 29, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; It owns fourteen and manages another three Trump-branded courses worldwide.&lt;ref name=&quot;CNN&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/take-a-look-at-the-golf-courses-owned-by-donald-trump/|title=Take a look at the golf courses owned by Donald Trump|work=[[Golfweek]]|date=July 24, 2020|access-date=July 7, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Side ventures === {{See also|List of things named after Donald Trump}} [[The Trump Organization]] has licensed the Trump name for consumer products and services, including foodstuffs, apparel, learning courses, and home furnishings.&lt;ref name=&quot;neckties&quot;&gt;{{cite news|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=April 13, 2018|access-date=September 29, 2021|first1=Zane|last1=Anthony|first2=Kathryn|last2=Sanders|first3=David A.|last3=Fahrenthold|author-link3=David Fahrenthold|title=Whatever happened to Trump neckties? They're over. So is most of Trump's merchandising empire.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/whatever-happened-to-trump-ties-theyre-over-so-is-most-of-trumps-merchandising-empire/2018/04/13/2c32378a-369c-11e8-acd5-35eac230e514_story.html}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Martin|first=Jonathan|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/30/us/politics/donald-trump-institute-plagiarism.html|title=Trump Institute Offered Get-Rich Schemes With Plagiarized Lessons|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=June 29, 2016|access-date=January 8, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; According to ''[[The Washington Post]]'', there are more than 50 licensing or management deals involving his name, and they have generated at least $59&amp;nbsp;million in revenue for his companies.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Aaron|last1=Williams|first2=Anu|last2=Narayanswamy|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/trump-worldwide-licensing/|title=How Trump has made millions by selling his name|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=January 25, 2017|access-date=December 12, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; By 2018, only two consumer goods companies continued to license his name.&lt;ref name=&quot;neckties&quot;/&gt; [[File:Donald Trump and Doug Flutie at a press conference in the Trump Tower.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.2|Trump and New Jersey Generals quarterback [[Doug Flutie]] at a 1985 press conference in Trump Tower|alt=Trump, Doug Flutie, and an unnamed official standing behind a lectern with big, round New Jersey Generals sign, with members of the press seated in the background]] In September 1983, Trump purchased the [[New Jersey Generals]], a team in the [[United States Football League]]. After the 1985 season, the league folded, largely due to his attempt to move to a fall schedule (when it would have competed with the [[NFL]] for audience) and trying to force a merger with the NFL by bringing an antitrust suit.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Arash|last=Markazi|author-link=Arash Markazi|title=5 things to know about Donald Trump's foray into doomed USFL|date=July 14, 2015|access-date=September 30, 2021|work=[[ESPN]]|url=https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/13255737/five-things-know-donald-trump-usfl-experience}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://fortune.com/2017/09/24/donald-trump-nfl-usfl/|title=Donald Trump Fought the NFL Once Before. He Got Crushed|work=[[Fortune (magazine)|Fortune]]|date=September 24, 2017|access-date=June 22, 2018|last=Morris|first=David Z.}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump and his Plaza Hotel hosted several boxing matches at the [[Atlantic City Convention Hall]].&lt;ref name=&quot;fall&quot;/&gt;{{sfn|O'Donnell|Rutherford|1991|p=137–143}} In 1989 and 1990, he lent his name to the [[Tour de Trump]] cycling stage race, an attempt to create an American equivalent of European races such as the [[Tour de France]] or the [[Giro d'Italia]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/04/donald-trump-2016-tour-de-trump-bike-race-213801|title=The Strange Tale of Donald Trump's 1989 Biking Extravaganza|first=Kevin|last=Hogan|work=[[Politico]]|date=April 10, 2016|access-date=April 12, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; From 1986 to 1988, Trump purchased significant blocks of shares in various public companies while suggesting that he intended to take over the company and then sold his shares for a profit,&lt;ref name=&quot;Buettner-190508&quot;/&gt; leading some observers to think he was engaged in [[greenmail]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Mattingly|first1=Phil|last2=Jorgensen|first2=Sarah|url=https://cnn.com/2016/08/22/politics/donald-trump-activist-investor/|title=The Gordon Gekko era: Donald Trump's lucrative and controversial time as an activist investor|publisher=[[CNN]]|date=August 23, 2016|access-date=September 14, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; ''[[The New York Times]]'' found that he initially made millions of dollars in such stock transactions, but &quot;lost most, if not all, of those gains after investors stopped taking his takeover talk seriously&quot;.&lt;ref name=Buettner-190508/&gt; In 1988, Trump purchased the [[Eastern Air Lines Shuttle]], financing the purchase with $380&amp;nbsp;million (equivalent to ${{Inflation|US|380|1988}}&amp;nbsp;million in {{Inflation/year|US}}){{Inflation/fn|US}} in loans from a syndicate of 22 banks. He renamed the airline [[Trump Shuttle]] and operated it until 1992.&lt;ref name=&quot;TA&quot;&gt;{{cite news|work=[[The Daily Beast]]|title=The Crash of Trump Air|first=Barbara|last=Peterson|date=April 13, 2017|url=https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-crash-of-trump-air|access-date=May 17, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; He defaulted on his loans in 1991, and ownership passed to the banks.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine|url=https://time.com/4343030/donald-trump-failures/|title=10 Donald Trump Business Failures|magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]|date=October 11, 2016|access-date=May 17, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1992, Trump, his siblings [[Maryanne Trump Barry|Maryanne]], Elizabeth, and [[Robert Trump|Robert]], and his cousin John W. Walter, each with a 20&amp;nbsp;percent share, formed All County Building Supply &amp; Maintenance Corp. The company had no offices and is alleged to have been a shell company for paying the vendors providing services and supplies for Trump's rental units, then billing those services and supplies to Trump Management with markups of 20–50&amp;nbsp;percent and more. The owners shared the proceeds generated by the markups.&lt;ref name=&quot;Tax_Schemes&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Blair|first=Gwenda|url=https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/10/07/trump-new-york-times-tax-evasion-221082|title=Did the Trump Family Historian Drop a Dime to the New York Times?|work=[[Politico]]|date=October 7, 2018|access-date=August 14, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; The increased costs were used to get state approval for increasing the rents of his rent-stabilized units.&lt;ref name=&quot;Tax_Schemes&quot;/&gt; From 1996 to 2015, Trump owned all or part of the [[Miss Universe]] pageants, including [[Miss USA]] and [[Miss Teen USA]].&lt;ref name=&quot;pageantsaleWME&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/15/business/media/trump-sells-miss-universe-organization-to-wme-img-talent-agency.html|title=Trump Sells Miss Universe Organization to WME-IMG Talent Agency|date=September 14, 2015|first=John|last=Koblin|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=January 9, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-sells-miss-universe-img-2015-9|title=Donald Trump just sold off the entire Miss Universe Organization after buying it 3 days ago|date=September 14, 2015|first=Jethro|last=Nededog|work=[[Business Insider]]|access-date=May 6, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; Due to disagreements with CBS about scheduling, he took both pageants to NBC in 2002.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/22/business/three-beauty-pageants-leaving-cbs-for-nbc.html|title=Three Beauty Pageants Leaving CBS for NBC|date=June 22, 2002|first=Jim|last=Rutenberg|author-link=Jim Rutenberg|access-date=August 14, 2016|work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/2002/06/22/there-she-goes-pageants-move-to-nbc/2ba81b9a-bf67-4f3e-b8d6-1c2cc881ed19/|title=There She Goes: Pageants Move to NBC|date=June 22, 2002|first=Lisa|last=de Moraes|author-link=Lisa de Moraes|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|access-date=August 14, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2007, he received a star on the [[Hollywood Walk of Fame]] for his work as producer of Miss Universe.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Zara|first=Christopher|author-link=Christopher Zara|url=https://www.fastcompany.com/4023036/why-the-heck-does-donald-trump-have-a-walk-of-fame-star-anyway-its-not-the-reason-you-think|title=Why the heck does Donald Trump have a Walk of Fame star, anyway? It's not the reason you think|work=[[Fast Company]]|date=October 26, 2016|access-date=June 16, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; NBC and Univision dropped the pageants in June 2015.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2015/06/29/nbc-dumps-trump/29471971/|title=NBC to Donald Trump: You're fired|work=[[USA Today]]|first=Maria|last=Puente|date=June 29, 2015|access-date=July 28, 2015}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Trump University ==== {{Main|Trump University}} In 2004, Trump co-founded [[Trump University]], a company that sold real estate seminars for up to $35,000.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2014/01/trump-university-fraud-scandal|title=Big Hair on Campus: Did Donald Trump Defraud Thousands of Real Estate Students?|last=Cohan|first=William D.|author-link=William D. Cohan|work=[[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]]|date=December 3, 2013|access-date=March 6, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; After New York State authorities notified the company that its use of &quot;university&quot; violated state law (as it was not an academic institution), its name was changed to the Trump Entrepreneur Initiative in 2010.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Michael|last=Barbaro|author-link=Michael Barbaro|title=New York Attorney General Is Investigating Trump's For-Profit School|date=May 19, 2011|access-date=September 30, 2021|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/nyregion/trumps-for-profit-school-said-to-be-under-investigation.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2013, the State of New York filed a $40&amp;nbsp;million civil suit against Trump University, alleging that the company made false statements and defrauded consumers.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/02/27/donald-trumps-misleading-claim-that-hes-won-most-of-lawsuits-over-trump-university/|first=Michelle Ye Hee|last=Lee|title=Donald Trump's misleading claim that he's 'won most of' lawsuits over Trump University|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=February 27, 2016|access-date=February 27, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; Additionally, two class actions were filed in federal court against Trump and his companies. Internal documents revealed that employees were instructed to use a hard-sell approach, and former employees testified that Trump University had defrauded or lied to its students.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/08/26/trump-entrepreneur-initiative-case/2700811/|title=Trump faces two-front legal fight over 'university'|work=[[USA Today]]|first=Kevin|last=McCoy|date=August 26, 2013|access-date=September 29, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/01/us/politics/donald-trump-university.html|title=Former Trump University Workers Call the School a 'Lie' and a 'Scheme' in Testimony|last1=Barbaro|first1=Michael|author-link1=Michael Barbaro|last2=Eder|first2=Steve|date=May 31, 2016|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=March 24, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.npr.org/2016/06/01/480279246/hard-sell-the-potential-political-consequences-of-the-trump-university-documents|title=Hard Sell: The Potential Political Consequences of the Trump University Documents|last=Montanaro|first=Domenico|date=June 1, 2016|work=[[NPR]]|access-date=June 2, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; Shortly after he won the 2016 presidential election, he agreed to pay a total of $25&amp;nbsp;million to settle the three cases.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/19/us/politics/trump-university.html|title=Donald Trump Agrees to Pay $25 Million in Trump University Settlement|last=Eder|first=Steve|date=November 18, 2016|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=November 18, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Foundation === {{Main|Donald J. Trump Foundation}} The Donald J. Trump Foundation was a [[Private foundation (United States)|private foundation]] established in 1988.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/133404773|title=Nonprofit Explorer|work=[[ProPublica]]|first1=Mike|last1=Tigas|first2=Sisi|last2=Wei|date=May 9, 2013|access-date=September 9, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=David A.|last=Fahrenthold|author-link=David Fahrenthold|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/09/01/trump-pays-irs-a-penalty-for-his-foundation-violating-rules-with-gift-to-florida-attorney-general/|title=Trump pays IRS a penalty for his foundation violating rules with gift to aid Florida attorney general|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=September 1, 2016|access-date=September 30, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; From 1987 to 2006, Trump gave his foundation $5.4&amp;nbsp;million which had been spent by the end of 2006. After donating a total of $65,000 in 2007–2008, he stopped donating any personal funds to the charity,&lt;ref name=&quot;retool&quot;&gt;{{cite news|first=David A.|last=Fahrenthold|author-link=David Fahrenthold|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-donald-trump-retooled-his-charity-to-spend-other-peoples-money/2016/09/10/da8cce64-75df-11e6-8149-b8d05321db62_story.html|title=How Donald Trump retooled his charity to spend other people's money|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=September 10, 2016|access-date=March 19, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; which received millions from other donors, including $5&amp;nbsp;million from [[Vince McMahon]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Pallotta|first=Frank|url=https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/18/media/vince-mcmahon-donald-trump-payments/index.html|title=Investigation into Vince McMahon's hush money payments reportedly turns up Trump charity donations|publisher=[[CNN]]|date=August 18, 2022|access-date=March 19, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; The foundation gave to health- and sports-related charities, conservative groups,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[Long Island Business News]]|date=September 15, 2016|access-date=September 30, 2021|first=Claude|last=Solnik|title=Taking a peek at Trump's (foundation) tax returns|url=https://libn.com/2016/09/15/taking-a-peek-at-trumps-foundation-tax-returns/}}&lt;/ref&gt; and charities that held events at Trump properties.&lt;ref name=&quot;retool&quot;/&gt; In 2016, ''The Washington Post'' reported that the charity committed several potential legal and ethical violations, including alleged self-dealing and possible [[tax evasion]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Chris|last1=Cillizza|author-link1=Chris Cillizza|first2=David A.|last2=Fahrenthold|author-link2=David Fahrenthold|title=Meet the reporter who's giving Donald Trump fits|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/15/how-the-reporter-behind-the-trump-foundation-stories-does-it/|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=September 15, 2016|access-date=June 26, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Also in 2016, the New York attorney general determined the foundation to be in violation of state law, for soliciting donations without submitting to required annual external audits, and ordered it to cease its fundraising activities in New York immediately.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=October 3, 2016|access-date=May 17, 2023|first=David A.|last=Fahrenthold|author-link=David Fahrenthold|title=Trump Foundation ordered to stop fundraising by N.Y. attorney general's office|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-foundation-ordered-to-stop-fundraising-by-ny-attorney-generals-office/2016/10/03/1d4d295a-8987-11e6-bff0-d53f592f176e_story.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump's team announced in December 2016 that the foundation would be dissolved.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/24/trump-university-shut-down-conflict-of-interest|title=Donald Trump to dissolve his charitable foundation after mounting complaints|last=Jacobs|first=Ben|author-link=Ben Jacobs (journalist)|date=December 24, 2016|work=[[The Guardian]]|access-date=December 25, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; In June 2018, the New York attorney general's office filed a civil suit against the foundation, Trump, and his adult children, seeking $2.8&amp;nbsp;million in restitution and additional penalties.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/392392-five-things-to-know-about-the-lawsuit-against-the-trump-foundation|title=Five things to know about the lawsuit against the Trump Foundation|last=Thomsen|first=Jacqueline|date=June 14, 2018|work=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]]|access-date=June 15, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; In December 2018, the foundation ceased operation and disbursed its assets to other charities.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/nyregion/ny-ag-underwood-trump-foundation.html|title=Trump Foundation Will Dissolve, Accused of 'Shocking Pattern of Illegality'|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=December 18, 2018|access-date=May 9, 2019|first=Shane|last=Goldmacher}}&lt;/ref&gt; In November 2019, a New York state judge ordered Trump to pay $2&amp;nbsp;million to a group of charities for misusing the foundation's funds, in part to finance his presidential campaign.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-foundation-ordered-pay-2m-collection-nonprofits-part/story?id=66827235|title=President Donald Trump ordered to pay $2M to collection of nonprofits as part of civil lawsuit|work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]|date=November 7, 2019|access-date=November 7, 2019|first=Aaron|last=Katersky}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50338231|title=Judge orders Trump to pay $2m for misusing Trump Foundation funds|date=November 8, 2019|work=[[BBC News]]|access-date=March 5, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Legal affairs and bankruptcies === {{Main|Personal and business legal affairs of Donald Trump}} [[Roy Cohn]] was Trump's [[Fixer (person)|fixer]], lawyer, and mentor for 13 years in the 1970s and 1980s.&lt;ref name=&quot;Mahler2016Cohn&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Mahler|first1=Jonathan|last2=Flegenheimer|first2=Matt|title=What Donald Trump Learned From Joseph McCarthy's Right-Hand Man|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/us/politics/donald-trump-roy-cohn.html|access-date=May 26, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=June 20, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; According to Trump, Cohn sometimes waived fees due to their friendship.&lt;ref name=&quot;Mahler2016Cohn&quot;/&gt; In 1973, Cohn helped Trump countersue the U.S. government for $100&amp;nbsp;million (equivalent to ${{Inflation|US|100|1973}}&amp;nbsp;million in {{Inflation/year|US}}){{Inflation/fn|US}} over its charges that Trump's properties had racial discriminatory practices. Trump's counterclaims were dismissed, and the government's case was settled with the Trumps signing a consent decree agreeing to desegregate.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=January 23, 2016|first1=Michael|last1=Kranish|author-link1=Michael Kranish|first2=Robert Jr.|last2=O'Harrow|title=Inside the government's racial bias case against Donald Trump's company, and how he fought it|access-date=January 7, 2021|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-the-governments-racial-bias-case-against-donald-trumps-company-and-how-he-fought-it/2016/01/23/fb90163e-bfbe-11e5-bcda-62a36b394160_story.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1975, an agreement was struck requiring Trump's properties to furnish the [[National Urban League|New York Urban League]] with a list of all apartment vacancies, every week for two years, among other things.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Dunlap|first=David W.|author-link=David W. Dunlap|title=1973: Meet Donald Trump|url=https://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/2015/07/30/1973-meet-donald-trump/|access-date=May 26, 2020|date=July 30, 2015|work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Cohn introduced political consultant [[Roger Stone]] to Trump, who enlisted Stone's services to deal with the federal government.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Brenner|first=Marie|title=How Donald Trump and Roy Cohn's Ruthless Symbiosis Changed America|url=https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/06/donald-trump-roy-cohn-relationship|access-date=May 26, 2020|work=[[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]]|date=June 28, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; According to a review of state and federal court files conducted by ''[[USA Today]]'' in 2018, Trump and his businesses had been involved in more than 4,000 state and federal legal actions.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Donald Trump: Three decades, 4,095 lawsuits |work=[[USA Today]] |url=https://www.usatoday.com/pages/interactives/trump-lawsuits/ |access-date=April 17, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; While he has not filed for [[personal bankruptcy]], his over-leveraged hotel and casino businesses in Atlantic City and New York filed for [[Chapter 11 bankruptcy]] protection six times between 1991 and 2009.&lt;ref name=&quot;TW&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Winter|first=Tom|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-bankruptcy-math-doesn-t-add-n598376|title=Trump Bankruptcy Math Doesn't Add Up|publisher=[[NBC News]]|date=June 24, 2016|access-date=February 26, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; They continued to operate while the banks restructured debt and reduced his shares in the properties.&lt;ref name=&quot;TW&quot;/&gt; During the 1980s, more than 70 banks had lent Trump $4&amp;nbsp;billion.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[Reuters]]|date=July 17, 2016|first=Emily|last=Flitter|title=Art of the spin: Trump bankers question his portrayal of financial comeback|access-date=October 14, 2018|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-bankruptcies-insig/art-of-the-spin-trump-bankers-question-his-portrayal-of-financial-comeback-idUSKCN0ZX0GP}}&lt;/ref&gt; After his corporate bankruptcies of the early 1990s, most major banks, with the exception of Deutsche Bank, declined to lend to him.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[Business Insider]]|date=December 8, 2017|first=Allan|last=Smith|title=Trump's long and winding history with Deutsche Bank could now be at the center of Robert Mueller's investigation|access-date=October 14, 2018|url=https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-deutsche-bank-mueller-2017-12}}&lt;/ref&gt; After the [[January&amp;nbsp;6 Capitol attack]], the bank decided not to do business with him or his company in the future.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Riley|first1=Charles|last2=Egan|first2=Matt|title=Deutsche Bank won't do any more business with Trump|url=https://cnn.com/2021/01/12/investing/deutsche-bank-trump/|access-date=September 14, 2022|publisher=[[CNN]]|date=January 12, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Media career == {{Main|Media career of Donald Trump}} {{See also|Bibliography of Donald Trump}} Trump has produced 19 books under his name. At least some of them have been written or co-written by [[ghostwriters]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-books-tweet-ghostwriter-tim-o-brien-tony-schwartz-writer-response-a8431271.html|title=Trump boasted about writing many books – his ghostwriter says otherwise|work=[[The Independent]]|first=Andrew|last=Buncombe|date=July 4, 2018|access-date=October 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; His first book, ''[[The Art of the Deal]]'' (1987), was a [[The New York Times Best Seller list|''New York Times'' Best Seller]]. While he was credited as co-author, the entire book was written by [[Tony Schwartz (author)|Tony Schwartz]]. According to ''[[The New Yorker]]'', the book made Trump famous as an &quot;emblem of the successful tycoon&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;JM&quot;&gt;{{cite magazine|url=https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all|title=Donald Trump's Ghostwriter Tells All|magazine=[[The New Yorker]]|first=Jane|last=Mayer|author-link=Jane Mayer|date=July 18, 2016|access-date=June 19, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Donald Trump star Hollywood Walk of Fame.JPG|thumb|upright=0.7|Trump's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame|alt=A red star with a bronze outline and &quot;Donald Trump&quot; and a TV icon written on it in bronze, embedded in a black terrazzo sidewalk]] Trump had cameos in many films and television shows from 1985 to 2001.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Adrienne|last=LaFrance|title=Three Decades of Donald Trump Film and TV Cameos|date=December 21, 2015|work=[[The Atlantic]]|url=https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/12/three-decades-of-donald-trump-film-and-tv-cameos/421257/}}&lt;/ref&gt; Starting in the 1990s, Trump was a guest about 24 times on the nationally syndicated ''[[Howard Stern Show]]''.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA166 166]}} He had his own short-form talk radio program called ''[[Trumped!]]'' from 2004 to 2008.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://people.com/celebrity/the-donald-to-get-new-wife-radio-show/|title=The Donald to Get New Wife, Radio Show|work=[[People (magazine)|People]]|date=April 29, 2004|access-date=November 19, 2013|first=Stephen M.|last=Silverman|author-link=Stephen M. Silverman}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Bob|last=Tedeschi|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/06/technology/now-for-sale-online-the-art-of-the-vacation.html|title=Now for Sale Online, the Art of the Vacation|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=February 6, 2006|access-date=October 21, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; From 2011 until 2015, he was a guest commentator on ''[[Fox &amp; Friends]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Montopoli|first=Brian|url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-gets-regular-fox-news-spot/|title=Donald Trump gets regular Fox News spot|work=[[CBS News]]|date=April 1, 2011|access-date=July 7, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Grossmann|first1=Matt|last2=Hopkins|first2=David A.|title=How the conservative media is taking over the Republican Party|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/09/09/how-the-conservative-media-is-taking-over-the-republican-party/|access-date=October 19, 2018|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=September 9, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; From 2004 to 2015, Trump was co-producer and host of reality shows ''The Apprentice'' and ''[[The Celebrity Apprentice]]''. On the shows, he was a superrich and successful chief executive who eliminated contestants with the [[catchphrase]] &quot;you're fired&quot;. ''The New York Times'' called his portrayal a &quot;highly flattering, highly fictionalized version of Mr. Trump&quot;. The shows remade his image for millions of viewers nationwide.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Grynbaum|first1=Michael M.|last2=Parker|first2=Ashley|author-link2=Ashley Parker|date=July 16, 2016|title=Donald Trump the Political Showman, Born on 'The Apprentice'|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/17/business/media/donald-trump-apprentice.html|access-date=July 8, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine |last=Nussbaum |first=Emily |url=https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/07/31/the-tv-that-created-donald-trump |title=The TV That Created Donald Trump |magazine=[[The New Yorker]] |date=July 24, 2017 |access-date=October 18, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; With the related licensing agreements, they earned him more than $400&amp;nbsp;million.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Poniewozik |first=James |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/28/arts/television/trump-taxes-apprentice.html |title=Donald Trump Was the Real Winner of 'The Apprentice' |work=[[The New York Times]] |date=September 28, 2020 |access-date=October 18, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; In February 2021, Trump, who had been a member of [[SAG-AFTRA]] since 1989, resigned to avoid a disciplinary hearing regarding the January&amp;nbsp;6 attack.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Rao|first=Sonia|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2021/02/04/trump-resigns-screen-actors-guild/|title=Facing expulsion, Trump resigns from the Screen Actors Guild: 'You have done nothing for me'|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=February 4, 2021|access-date=February 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Two days later, the union permanently barred him.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Harmata|first=Claudia|url=https://people.com/tv/sag-aftra-bans-donald-trump-future-readmission/|title=Donald Trump Banned from Future Re-Admission to SAG-AFTRA: It's 'More Than a Symbolic Step'|work=[[People (magazine)|People]]|date=February 7, 2021|access-date=February 8, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Political career (1987–2014)== {{Further|Political career of Donald Trump}} [[File:Donald Trump and Bill Clinton.jpg|thumb|right|Trump and President [[Bill Clinton]], June 2000|alt=Donald Trump shakes hands with Bill Clinton in a lobby; Trump is speaking and Clinton is smiling, and both are wearing suits.]] Trump registered as a Republican in 1987;&lt;ref name=&quot;reg&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Gillin|first=Joshua|title=Bush says Trump was a Democrat longer than a Republican 'in the last decade'|url=https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/aug/24/jeb-bush/bush-says-trump-was-democrat-longer-republican-las/|access-date=March 18, 2017|work=[[PolitiFact]]|date=August 24, 2015}}&lt;/ref&gt; a member of the [[Independence Party of New York|Independence Party]], the New York state affiliate of the [[Reform Party of the United States of America|Reform Party]], in 1999;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/10/25/trump.cnn/|title=Trump Officially Joins Reform Party|work=[[CNN]]|date=October 25, 1999|access-date=December 26, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; a Democrat in 2001; a Republican in 2009; unaffiliated in 2011; and a Republican in 2012.&lt;ref name=&quot;reg&quot;/&gt; In 1987, Trump placed full-page advertisements in three major newspapers,&lt;ref name=&quot;hint&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1987/09/02/nyregion/trump-gives-a-vague-hint-of-candidacy.html|title=Trump Gives a Vague Hint of Candidacy|work=[[The New York Times]]|first=Michael|last=Oreskes|author-link=Michael Oreskes|date=September 2, 1987|access-date=February 17, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; expressing his views on foreign policy and how to eliminate the federal budget deficit.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/18/us/trump-urged-to-head-gala-of-democrats.html|title=Trump Urged To Head Gala Of Democrats|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=November 18, 1987|access-date=October 1, 2021|first=Fox|last=Butterfield}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1988, he approached [[Lee Atwater]], asking to be put into consideration to be Republican nominee [[George H. W. Bush]]'s running mate. Bush found the request &quot;strange and unbelievable&quot;.{{sfn|Meacham|2016|p=326}} Trump [[Donald Trump 2000 presidential campaign|was a candidate]] in the [[2000 Reform Party presidential primaries]] for three months, but withdrew from the race in February 2000.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Richard|last=Winger|author-link=Richard Winger|title=Donald Trump Ran For President in 2000 in Several Reform Party Presidential Primaries|date=December 25, 2011|access-date=October 1, 2021|website=[[Ballot Access News]]|url=https://ballot-access.org/2011/12/25/donald-trump-ran-for-president-in-2000-in-several-reform-party-presidential-primaries/}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Clift|first=Eleanor|url=https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-last-time-trump-wrecked-a-party|title=The Last Time Trump Wrecked a Party|work=[[The Daily Beast]]|date=July 18, 2016|access-date=October 14, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Nagourney|first=Adam|url=https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/politics/camp/021400wh-ref-trump.html|title=Reform Bid Said to Be a No-Go for Trump|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=February 14, 2000|access-date=December 26, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Donald Trump speaking at CPAC 2011 by Mark Taylor.jpg|thumb|right|Trump speaking at [[Conservative Political Action Conference|CPAC]] 2011|alt=Trump, leaning heavily onto a lectern, with his mouth open mid-speech and a woman clapping politely next to him]] In 2011, Trump speculated about running against President Barack Obama in [[2012 United States presidential election|the 2012 election]], making his first speaking appearance at the [[Conservative Political Action Conference]] (CPAC) in February 2011 and giving speeches in early primary states.&lt;ref name=&quot;McA&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=MacAskill|first=Ewen|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/16/donald-trump-us-presidential-race|title=Donald Trump bows out of 2012 US presidential election race|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=May 16, 2011|access-date=February 28, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Bobic|first1=Igor|last2=Stein|first2=Sam|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-cpac_n_58adc0f4e4b03d80af7141cf|title=How CPAC Helped Launch Donald Trump's Political Career|work=[[HuffPost]]|date=February 22, 2017|access-date=February 28, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; In May 2011, he announced he would not run.&lt;ref name=&quot;McA&quot;/&gt; His presidential ambitions were generally not taken seriously at the time.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-cpac-president-act_n_821923|title=Donald Trump Brings His 'Pretend To Run For President' Act To CPAC|work=[[HuffPost]]|access-date=September 14, 2022|first=Jason|last=Linkins|date=February 11, 2011}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Election of 2016 == === Campaign === {{Main|Donald Trump 2016 presidential campaign}} {{further|2016 Republican Party presidential primaries|2016 United States presidential election#General election campaign}} Trump announced his candidacy in June 2015.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Lerner |first=Adam B. |date=June 16, 2015 |title=The 10 best lines from Donald Trump's announcement speech |url=https://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/donald-trump-2016-announcement-10-best-lines-119066 |access-date=June 7, 2018 |work=[[Politico]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Graham |first=David A. |date=May 13, 2016 |title=The Lie of Trump's 'Self-Funding' Campaign |url=https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/trumps-self-funding-lie/482691/ |access-date=June 7, 2018 |work=[[The Atlantic]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Donald Trump 2016 presidential campaign|His campaign]] was initially not taken seriously by political analysts, but he quickly rose to the top of opinion polls.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Reeve |first=Elspeth |date=October 27, 2015 |title=How Donald Trump Evolved From a Joke to an Almost Serious Candidate |url=https://newrepublic.com/article/123228/how-donald-trump-evolved-joke-almost-serious-candidate |access-date=July 23, 2018 |magazine=[[The New Republic]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He became the front-runner in March 2016&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Bump |first=Philip |date=March 23, 2016 |title=Why Donald Trump is poised to win the nomination and lose the general election, in one poll |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/23/why-donald-trump-is-poised-to-win-the-nomination-and-lose-the-general-election-in-one-poll/ |access-date=October 1, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and was declared the presumptive Republican nominee in May.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Nussbaum |first=Matthew |date=May 3, 2016 |title=RNC Chairman: Trump is our nominee |url=https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/05/reince-priebus-donald-trump-is-nominee-222767 |access-date=May 4, 2016 |work=[[Politico]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump's fame and provocative statements earned him an unprecedented amount of [[earned media|free media coverage]], elevating his standing in the Republican primaries.&lt;ref name=&quot;Cillizza-160614&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/14/this-harvard-study-is-a-powerful-indictment-of-the-medias-role-in-donald-trumps-rise/|title=This Harvard study is a powerful indictment of the media's role in Donald Trump's rise|first=Chris|last=Cillizza|author-link=Chris Cillizza|date=June 14, 2016|access-date=October 1, 2021|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He adopted the phrase &quot;truthful hyperbole&quot;, coined by his ghostwriter Tony Schwartz, to describe his public speaking style.&lt;ref name=&quot;JM&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Emily|last1=Flitter|first2=James|last2=Oliphant|title=Best president ever! How Trump's love of hyperbole could backfire|date=August 28, 2015|access-date=October 1, 2021|work=[[Reuters]]|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-hyperbole-insight-idUSKCN0QX11X20150828}}&lt;/ref&gt; His campaign statements were often opaque and suggestive,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.npr.org/2016/08/10/489476187/trump-s-second-amendment-comment-fit-a-pattern-of-ambiguous-speech|last=McCammon|first=Sarah|title=Donald Trump's controversial speech often walks the line|work=[[NPR]]|date=August 10, 2016|access-date=October 1, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; and a record number were false.&lt;ref name=&quot;whoppers&quot;&gt;{{cite news|title=The 'King of Whoppers': Donald Trump|url=https://www.factcheck.org/2015/12/the-king-of-whoppers-donald-trump/|work=[[FactCheck.org]]|access-date=March 4, 2019|date=December 21, 2015}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/dec/21/2015-lie-year-donald-trump-campaign-misstatements/|title=2015 Lie of the Year: the campaign misstatements of Donald Trump|work=[[PolitiFact]]|date=December 21, 2015|access-date=October 1, 2021|first1=Angie Drobnic|last1=Holan|author-link1=Angie Drobnic Holan|first2=Linda|last2=Qiu}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Paul|last=Farhi|title=Think Trump's wrong? Fact checkers can tell you how often. (Hint: A lot.)|date=February 26, 2016|access-date=October 1, 2021|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-existential-crisis-of-professional-factcheckers-in-the-year-of-trump/2016/02/25/e994f210-db3e-11e5-81ae-7491b9b9e7df_story.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; He said he disdained [[political correctness]] and frequently made claims of [[media bias]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Walsh-160724&quot;&gt;{{cite news|first=Kenneth T.|last=Walsh|author-link=Kenneth T. Walsh|title=Trump: Media Is 'Dishonest and Corrupt'|date=August 15, 2016|access-date=October 1, 2021|work=[[U.S. News &amp; World Report]]|url=https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-08-15/trump-media-is-dishonest-and-corrupt}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/07/06/donald-trumps-failing-war-on-political-correctness/|title=Donald Trump is waging war on political correctness. And he's losing.|first=Aaron|last=Blake|date=July 6, 2016|access-date=October 1, 2021|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Donald Trump by Gage Skidmore 5.jpg|thumb|alt=Trump speaking in front of an American flag behind a lectern, wearing a black suit and red hat. The lectern sports a blue &quot;TRUMP&quot; sign.|Trump campaigning in Arizona, March 2016]][[Hillary Clinton]] led Trump in [[Nationwide opinion polling for the United States presidential election, 2016|national polling averages]] throughout the campaign, but, in early July, her lead narrowed.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/data-points/poll-clinton-trump-now-tied-gop-convention-kicks-n611936|title=Poll: Clinton and Trump Now Tied as GOP Convention Kicks Off|last1=Hartig|first1=Hannah|last2=Lapinski|first2=John|last3=Psyllos|first3=Stephanie|date=July 19, 2016|access-date=October 1, 2021|work=[[NBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In mid-July he selected Indiana governor [[Mike Pence]] as his running mate,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/15/donald-trump-officially-names-mike-pence-as-his-vp.html|title=Donald Trump officially names Mike Pence for VP|last=Levingston|first=Ivan|date=July 15, 2016|access-date=October 1, 2021|publisher=[[CNBC]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and the two were officially nominated at the [[2016 Republican National Convention]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-closes-the-deal-becomes-republican-nominee-for-president|title=Trump closes the deal, becomes Republican nominee for president|date=July 19, 2016|access-date=October 1, 2021|work=[[Fox News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump and Clinton faced off in [[2016 United States presidential debates|three presidential debates]] in September and October 2016. He twice refused to say whether he would accept the result of the election.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37706499|title=US presidential debate: Trump won't commit to accept election result|date=October 20, 2016|access-date=October 27, 2016|work=[[BBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump described NATO as &quot;obsolete&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Jenna|last=Johnson|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/04/12/trump-on-nato-i-said-it-was-obsolete-its-no-longer-obsolete/|title=Trump on NATO: 'I said it was obsolete. It's no longer obsolete.'|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=April 12, 2017|access-date=November 26, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{sfn|Edwards|2018|loc=&quot;On the campaign trail, Trump repeatedly called North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) 'obsolete'&quot;}} and espoused views that were described as [[noninterventionist]] and protectionist.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Rucker|first1=Philip|author-link1=Philip Rucker|last2=Costa|first2=Robert|author-link2=Robert Costa (journalist)|date=March 21, 2016|access-date=August 24, 2021|title=Trump questions need for NATO, outlines noninterventionist foreign policy|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/03/21/donald-trump-reveals-foreign-policy-team-in-meeting-with-the-washington-post/}}&lt;/ref&gt; His campaign platform emphasized renegotiating [[China–United States relations|U.S.–China relations]] and free trade agreements such as [[NAFTA]], strongly enforcing immigration laws, and building [[Trump wall|a new wall]] along the [[U.S.–Mexico border]]. Other campaign positions included pursuing [[energy independence]] while opposing climate change regulations, modernizing [[United States Department of Veterans Affairs#Veterans Benefits Administration|services for veterans]], repealing and replacing the [[Affordable Care Act]], abolishing [[Common Core]] education standards, [[infrastructure-based development|investing in infrastructure]], simplifying the [[Internal Revenue Code|tax code]] while reducing taxes, and imposing [[tariff]]s on imports by companies that offshore jobs. He advocated increasing military spending and extreme vetting or banning of immigrants from Muslim-majority countries.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37982000|title=Trump's promises before and after the election|date=September 19, 2017|access-date=October 1, 2021|work=[[BBC]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Financial disclosures ==== {{Further|Tax returns of Donald Trump}} Trump's FEC-required reports listed assets above $1.4&amp;nbsp;billion and outstanding debts of at least $315&amp;nbsp;million.&lt;ref name=&quot;disclosure&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite report|work=[[U.S. Office of Government Ethics]]|via=[[Bloomberg Businessweek]]|date=July 15, 2015|title=Executive Branch Personnel Public Financial Disclosure Report (U.S. OGE Form 278e)|url=https://images.businessweek.com/cms/2015-07-22/7-22-15-Report.pdf|archive-date=July 23, 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150723053945/https://images.businessweek.com/cms/2015-07-22/7-22-15-Report.pdf|access-date=December 21, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; He did not release [[Donald Trump's tax returns|his tax returns]], contrary to the practice of every major candidate since 1976 and his promises in 2014 and 2015 to do so if he ran for office.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/05/11/donald-trump-breaks-with-recent-history-by-not-releasing-tax-returns/|title=Donald Trump Breaks With Recent History by Not Releasing Tax Returns|last=Rappeport|first=Alan|author-link=Alan Rappeport|date=May 11, 2016|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=July 19, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Qiu|first=Linda|title=Pence's False claim that Trump 'hasn't broken' tax return promise|url=https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/05/mike-pence/pences-false-claim-trump-hasnt-broken-tax-return-p/|work=[[PolitiFact]]|date=October 5, 2016|access-date=April 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; He said his tax returns were being [[Income tax audit|audited]], and that his lawyers had advised him against releasing them.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://money.cnn.com/2016/02/26/pf/taxes/trump-tax-returns-audit/|title=Trump says he can't release tax returns because of audits|last1=Isidore|first1=Chris|last2=Sahadi|first2=Jeanne|date=February 26, 2016|access-date=March 1, 2023|work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; After a lengthy court battle to block release of his tax returns and other records to the [[Manhattan district attorney]] for a criminal investigation, including two appeals by Trump to the [[U.S. Supreme Court]], in February 2021 the high court allowed the records to be released to the prosecutor for review by a grand jury.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://cnn.com/2021/02/22/politics/supreme-court-trump-taxes-vance/|title=Supreme Court allows release of Trump tax returns to NY prosecutor|first=Ariane|last=de Vogue|date=February 22, 2021|access-date=September 14, 2022|work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Jessica|last=Gresko|url=https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-donald-trump-tax-rercords-3aee14146906351ee9dd34aa7b6f4386|title=Supreme Court won't halt turnover of Trump's tax records|date=February 22, 2021|access-date=October 2, 2021|work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In October 2016, portions of Trump's state filings for 1995 were leaked to a reporter from ''The New York Times''. They show that he had declared a loss of $916&amp;nbsp;million that year, which could have let him avoid taxes for up to 18 years.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/10/us/politics/donald-trump-taxes.html|title=Donald Trump Acknowledges Not Paying Federal Income Taxes for Years|last1=Eder|first1=Steve|last2=Twohey|first2=Megan|author-link2=Megan Twohey|date=October 10, 2016|access-date=October 2, 2021|work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Election ==== {{Main|2016 United States presidential election}} On November&amp;nbsp;8, 2016, Trump received 306 pledged [[Electoral College (United States)|electoral votes]] versus 232 for Clinton, although, after elector [[Faithless electors in the United States presidential election, 2016|defections on both sides]], the official count was ultimately 304 to 227.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Kiersten|last1=Schmidt|first2=Wilson|last2=Andrews|title=A Historic Number of Electors Defected, and Most Were Supposed to Vote for Clinton|date=December 19, 2016|access-date=January 31, 2017|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/19/us/elections/electoral-college-results.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; The fifth person to be elected president [[List of United States presidential elections in which the winner lost the popular vote|while losing the popular vote]], he received nearly 2.9&amp;nbsp;million fewer votes than Clinton.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Desilver|first=Drew|url=https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/12/20/why-electoral-college-landslides-are-easier-to-win-than-popular-vote-ones/|title=Trump's victory another example of how Electoral College wins are bigger than popular vote ones|website=[[Pew Research Center]]|date=December 20, 2016|access-date=October 2, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; He also was the only president who neither served in the military nor held any government office prior to becoming president.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/11/13587532/donald-trump-no-experience|title=Donald Trump will be the only US president ever with no political or military experience|last=Crockett|first=Zachary|date=November 11, 2016|work=[[Vox (website)|Vox]]|access-date=January 3, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; His victory was a [[political upset]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/election-results-2016-clinton-trump-231070|title=Trump pulls off biggest upset in U.S. history|work=[[Politico]]|date=November 9, 2016|first1=Shane|last1=Goldmacher|first2=Ben|last2=Schreckinger|access-date=November 9, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; Polls had consistently shown Clinton with a [[Nationwide opinion polling for the 2016 United States presidential election|nationwide]]—although diminishing—lead, as well as an advantage in most of the [[Statewide opinion polling for the 2016 United States presidential election|competitive states]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/upshot/why-trump-won-working-class-whites.html|title=Why Trump Won: Working-Class Whites|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=November 9, 2016|first=Nate|last=Cohn|access-date=November 9, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Women's March on Washington (32593123745).jpg|thumb|[[2017 Women's March|Women's March]] in Washington, D.C., on January&amp;nbsp;21, 2017|alt=Pennsylvania Ave., completely packed with protesters, mostly women, many wearing pink and holding signs with progressive feminist slogans]] Trump won 30 states, including Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, states which had been considered a [[Blue wall (U.S. politics)|blue wall]] of Democratic strongholds since the 1990s. Clinton won 20 states and the District of Columbia. His victory marked the return of an [[Divided government in the United States|undivided]] Republican government—a Republican White House combined with Republican control of both chambers of Congress.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=November 9, 2016|access-date=October 2, 2021|first=Amber|last=Phillips|title=Republicans are poised to grasp the holy grail of governance|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/09/republicans-are-about-to-reach-the-holy-grail-of-governance/}}&lt;/ref&gt; In late 2016, ''[[Time (magazine)|Time]]'' named Trump its [[Time Person of the Year|Person of the Year]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=McCann |first=Erin |date=December 7, 2016 |title=Donald Trump Is Time's Person of the Year, to No One's Surprise |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/07/business/media/donald-trump-time-person-of-the-year.html |work=[[The New York Times]] |access-date=November 12, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump's election victory [[Protests against Donald Trump#After the election|sparked protests]] in major U.S. cities.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Logan|first1=Brian|last2=Sanchez|first2=Chris|url=https://www.businessinsider.com/anti-donald-trump-protest-united-states-2016-11|title=Protests against Donald Trump break out nationwide|date=November 10, 2016|work=[[Business Insider]]|access-date=September 16, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last1=Mele|first1=Christopher|last2=Correal|first2=Annie|title='Not Our President': Protests Spread After Donald Trump's Election|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/us/trump-election-protests.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=November 9, 2016|access-date=May 10, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; On the day after his inauguration, an estimated 2.6&amp;nbsp;million people worldwide, including an estimated half million in Washington, D.C., protested against him in the [[2017 Women's March|Women's Marches]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/01/21/womens-march-aims-start-movement-trump-inauguration/96864158/|title=At 2.6 million strong, Women's Marches crush expectations|last1=Przybyla|first1=Heidi M.|last2=Schouten|first2=Fredreka|date=January 21, 2017|work=[[USA Today]]|access-date=January 22, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; == First presidency (2017–2021) == {{Conservatism US}} {{Main|First presidency of Donald Trump}} {{For timeline|Timeline of the Donald Trump presidencies}} === Early actions === {{See also|First presidential transition of Donald Trump|First 100 days of the first Donald Trump presidency}} [[File:Donald Trump swearing in ceremony.jpg|thumb|left|Trump takes [[Oath of office of the President of the United States|the oath of office]] administered by [[Chief Justice of the United States|Chief Justice]] [[John Roberts|John G. Roberts Jr.]] at [[United States Capitol|the Capitol]], January&amp;nbsp;20, 2017.|alt=Trump, with his family watching, raises his right hand and places his left hand on the Bible as he takes the oath of office. Roberts stands opposite him administering the oath.]] [[First inauguration of Donald Trump|Trump was inaugurated]] on January&amp;nbsp;20, 2017. During his first week in office, he signed [[List of executive actions by Donald Trump#Executive orders|six executive orders]], authorizing interim procedures in anticipation of repealing the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (&quot;Obamacare&quot;), withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership negotiations, reinstatement of the [[Mexico City policy]], advancement of the [[Keystone Pipeline|Keystone XL]] and [[Dakota Access Pipeline]] construction projects, reinforcement of border security, and a planning and design process to construct a wall along the U.S. border with Mexico.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Quigley|first=Aidan|title=All of Trump's executive actions so far|url=https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/01/all-trump-executive-actions-000288|access-date=January 28, 2017|work=[[Politico]]|date=January 25, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump's daughter Ivanka and son-in-law [[Jared Kushner]] became his [[Assistant to the President|assistant]] and [[Senior Advisor to the President of the United States|senior advisor]], respectively.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2017/03/family-affair|author=V.V.B|title=Ivanka Trump's new job|date=March 31, 2017|access-date=April 3, 2017|newspaper=[[The Economist]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Michael S.|last1=Schmidt|author-link1=Michael S. Schmidt|first2=Eric|last2=Lipton|author-link2=Eric Lipton|first3=Charlie|last3=Savage|author-link3=Charlie Savage (author)|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/21/us/politics/donald-trump-jared-kushner-justice-department.html|title=Jared Kushner, Trump's Son-in-Law, Is Cleared to Serve as Adviser|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=January 21, 2017|access-date=May 7, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Conflicts of interest === {{See also|First presidency of Donald Trump#Ethics}} Before being inaugurated, Trump moved his businesses into a [[revocable trust]],&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Marilyn|last=Geewax|title=Trump Has Revealed Assumptions About Handling Presidential Wealth, Businesses|url=https://www.npr.org/2018/01/20/576871315/trump-has-revealed-assumptions-about-handling-presidential-wealth-businesses|work=[[NPR]]|date=January 20, 2018|access-date=October 2, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;BBC041817&quot;&gt;{{cite news|title=Donald Trump: A list of potential conflicts of interest|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38069298|work=[[BBC]]|date=April 18, 2017|access-date=October 2, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; rather than a [[blind trust]] or equivalent arrangement &quot;to cleanly sever himself from his business interests&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|first1=Karen|last1=Yourish|first2=Larry|last2=Buchanan|url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/12/us/politics/ethics-experts-trumps-conflicts-of-interest.html|access-date=September 3, 2024|title=It 'Falls Short in Every Respect': Ethics Experts Pan Trump's Conflicts Plan|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=January 12, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; He continued to profit from his businesses and to know how his administration's policies affected his businesses.&lt;ref name=&quot;BBC041817&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Venook&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Venook|first=Jeremy|title=Trump's Interests vs. America's, Dubai Edition|url=https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/08/donald-trump-conflicts-of-interests/508382/|work=[[The Atlantic]]|date=August 9, 2017|access-date=October 2, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Although he said he would eschew &quot;new foreign deals&quot;, the Trump Organization pursued expansions of its operations in Scotland, Dubai, and the Dominican Republic.&lt;ref name=&quot;BBC041817&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Venook&quot;/&gt; Trump was sued for violating the [[Domestic Emoluments Clause|Domestic]] and [[Foreign Emoluments Clause]]s of the [[U.S. Constitution]], marking the first time that the clauses had been substantively litigated.&lt;ref name=CRSRpt&gt;{{cite report|title=In Focus: The Emoluments Clauses of the U.S. Constitution|url=https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/IF11086.pdf|date=August 19, 2020|access-date=October 2, 2021|work=[[Congressional Research Service]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; One case was dismissed in lower court.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=LaFraniere|first=Sharon|author-link=Sharon LaFraniere|title=Lawsuit on Trump Emoluments Violations Gains Traction in Court|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/us/politics/trump-emoluments-lawsuit.html|date=January 25, 2018|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=January 25, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; Two were dismissed by the U.S. Supreme Court as moot after the end of his term.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://cnn.com/2021/01/25/politics/emoluments-supreme-court-donald-trump-case/|title=Supreme Court dismisses emoluments cases against Trump|first1=Ariane|last1=de Vogue|first2=Devan|last2=Cole|work=[[CNN]]|date=January 25, 2021|access-date=September 14, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Domestic policy === {{Main|Economic policy of the first Donald Trump administration|Environmental policy of the first Donald Trump administration|Social policy of Donald Trump}} Trump took office at the height of the longest [[economic expansion]] in American history,&lt;ref name=VanDam&gt;{{cite news|first=Andrew |last=Van Dam|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/01/08/trump-jobs-record/|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|title=Trump will have the worst jobs record in modern U.S. history. It's not just the pandemic.|date=January 8, 2021|access-date=October 2, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; which began in 2009 and continued until February 2020, when the [[COVID-19 recession]] began.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Smialek|first=Jeanna|date=June 8, 2020|title=The U.S. Entered a Recession in February|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/business/economy/us-economy-recession-2020.html|access-date=June 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; In December 2017, Trump signed the [[Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017]]. It reduced tax rates for businesses and individuals and set the penalty associated with the [[Affordable Care Act]]'s individual mandate to $0.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Long|first=Heather|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/15/the-final-gop-tax-bill-is-complete-heres-what-is-in-it/|title=The final GOP tax bill is complete. Here's what is in it.|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=December 15, 2017|access-date=July 31, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/15/us/politics/final-republican-tax-bill-cuts.html|title=What's in the Final Republican Tax Bill|work=[[The New York Times]]|first1=Wilson|last1=Andrews|first2=Alicia|last2=Parlapiano|date=December 15, 2017|access-date=December 22, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Trump administration claimed that the act would not decrease government revenue, but 2018 revenues were 7.6&amp;nbsp;percent lower than projected.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Gale|first=William G.|url=https://www.brookings.edu/policy2020/votervital/did-the-2017-tax-cut-the-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-pay-for-itself/|title=Did the 2017 tax cut—the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act—pay for itself?|work=[[Brookings Institution]]|date=February 14, 2020|access-date=July 31, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Under Trump, the federal budget deficit increased by almost 50&amp;nbsp;percent, to nearly $1&amp;nbsp;trillion in 2019.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Long|first1=Heather|last2=Stein|first2=Jeff|title=The U.S. deficit hit $984 billion in 2019, soaring during Trump era|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/25/us-deficit-hit-billion-marking-nearly-percent-increase-during-trump-era/|access-date=June 10, 2020|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=October 25, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; By the end of his term, the [[U.S. national debt]] increased by 39&amp;nbsp;percent, reaching $27.75&amp;nbsp;trillion, and the U.S. [[debt-to-GDP ratio]] hit a post-World War II high.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Allan|last1=Sloan|first2=Cezary|last2=Podkul|url=https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump|work=[[ProPublica]]|title=Donald Trump Built a National Debt So Big (Even Before the Pandemic) That It'll Weigh Down the Economy for Years|date=January 14, 2021|access-date=October 3, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump also failed to deliver the $1&amp;nbsp;trillion infrastructure spending plan on which he had campaigned.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Bliss|first=Laura|url=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-16/what-did-all-those-infrastructure-weeks-add-up-to|title=How Trump's $1 Trillion Infrastructure Pledge Added Up|work=[[Bloomberg News]]|date=November 16, 2020|access-date=December 29, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump is the only modern U.S. president to leave office with a smaller workforce than when he took office, by 3&amp;nbsp;million people.&lt;ref name=VanDam/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last=Burns|first=Dan|date=January 8, 2021|title=Trump ends his term like a growing number of Americans: out of a job|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN29D31G/|access-date=May 10, 2024|work=[[Reuters]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump rejects the [[scientific consensus on climate change]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Ashley|last1=Parker|author-link1=Ashley Parker|first2=Coral|last2=Davenport|title=Donald Trump's Energy Plan: More Fossil Fuels and Fewer Rules|date=May 26, 2016|access-date=October 3, 2021|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/27/us/politics/donald-trump-global-warming-energy-policy.html}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Jason|last=Samenow|author-link=Jason Samenow|title=Donald Trump's unsettling nonsense on weather and climate|date=March 22, 2016|access-date=October 3, 2021|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2016/03/22/donald-trumps-unsettling-nonsense-on-weather-and-climate}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last1=Lemire|first1=Jonathan|last2=Madhani|first2=Aamer|last3=Weissert|first3=Will|last4=Knickmeyer|first4=Ellen|date=September 15, 2020|title=Trump spurns science on climate: 'Don't think science knows'|url=https://apnews.com/article/climate-climate-change-elections-joe-biden-campaigns-bd152cd786b58e45c61bebf2457f9930|access-date=May 11, 2024|work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Plumer |first1=Brad |last2=Davenport |first2=Coral |date=December 28, 2019 |title=Science Under Attack: How Trump Is Sidelining Researchers and Their Work |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/28/climate/trump-administration-war-on-science.html |access-date=May 11, 2024 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He reduced the budget for renewable energy research by 40&amp;nbsp;percent and reversed Obama-era policies directed at curbing climate change.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Trump proposes cuts to climate and clean-energy programs|url=https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/how-trump-is-changing-science-environment|date=May 3, 2019|work=[[National Geographic Society]]|access-date=November 24, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; He [[withdrawal of the United States from the Paris Agreement|withdrew from the Paris Agreement]], making the U.S. the only nation to not ratify it.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Dennis|first=Brady|title=As Syria embraces Paris climate deal, it's the United States against the world|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/11/07/as-syria-embraces-paris-climate-deal-its-the-united-states-against-the-world|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=November 7, 2017|access-date=May 28, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump aimed to boost the production and exports of [[fossil fuel]]s.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Gardner|first=Timothy|title=Senate confirms Brouillette, former Ford lobbyist, as energy secretary|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-energy-brouillette/senate-confirms-brouillette-former-ford-lobbyist-as-energy-secretary-idUSKBN1Y62E6|access-date=December 15, 2019|work=[[Reuters]]|date=December 3, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://apnews.com/article/mt-state-wire-climate-ap-top-news-climate-change-ca-state-wire-2b44ced0e892d7e988e40a486d875b5d|work=[[AP News]]|title=Trump's fossil fuel agenda gets pushback from federal judges|first=Matthew|last=Brown|date=September 15, 2020|access-date=October 3, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Natural gas expanded under Trump, but coal continued to decline.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Lipton |first=Eric |author-link=Eric Lipton |date=October 5, 2020 |title='The Coal Industry Is Back,' Trump Proclaimed. It Wasn't. |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/05/us/politics/trump-coal-industry.html |access-date=October 3, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=Subramaniam&gt;{{cite news|first=Tara|last=Subramaniam|url=https://cnn.com/2021/01/30/politics/trump-broken-promises/|title=From building the wall to bringing back coal: Some of Trump's more notable broken promises|work=[[CNN]]|date=January 30, 2021|access-date=October 3, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; He rolled back more than 100 federal environmental regulations, including those that curbed [[greenhouse gas emissions]], air and water pollution, and the use of toxic substances. He weakened protections for animals and environmental standards for federal infrastructure projects, and expanded permitted areas for drilling and resource extraction, such as allowing [[Arctic Refuge drilling controversy|drilling in the Arctic Refuge]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Popovich|first1=Nadja|last2=Albeck-Ripka|first2=Livia|last3=Pierre-Louis|first3=Kendra|title=The Trump Administration Rolled Back More Than 100 Environmental Rules. Here's the Full List.|url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/climate/trump-environment-rollbacks-list.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=January 20, 2021|access-date=December 21, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2017, Trump signed [[Executive Order 13771]], which directed that, for every new regulation, federal agencies &quot;identify&quot; two existing regulations for elimination, although it did not require elimination.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Plumer|first=Brad|url=https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/1/30/14441430/trump-executive-order-regulations|title=Trump wants to kill two old regulations for every new one issued. Sort of.|work=[[Vox (website)|Vox]]|date=January 30, 2017|access-date=March 11, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; He dismantled many federal regulations on health,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Thompson|first=Frank W.|url=https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2020/10/09/six-ways-trump-has-sabotaged-the-affordable-care-act/|title=Six ways Trump has sabotaged the Affordable Care Act|work=[[Brookings Institution]]|date=October 9, 2020|access-date=January 3, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;midnight&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Arnsdorf|first1=Isaac|last2=DePillis|first2=Lydia|last3=Lind|first3=Dara|last4=Song|first4=Lisa|last5=Syed|first5=Moiz|last6=Osei|first6=Zipporah|url=https://projects.propublica.org/trump-midnight-regulations/|title=Tracking the Trump Administration's &quot;Midnight Regulations&quot;|work=[[ProPublica]]|date=November 25, 2020|access-date=January 3, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; labor,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Poydock|first=Margaret|url=https://www.epi.org/blog/president-trump-has-attacked-workers-safety-wages-and-rights-since-day-one/|title=President Trump has attacked workers' safety, wages, and rights since Day One|work=[[Economic Policy Institute]]|date=September 17, 2020|access-date=January 3, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;midnight&quot;/&gt; and the environment,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Baker|first=Cayli|url=https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/12/15/the-trump-administrations-major-environmental-deregulations/|date=December 15, 2020|access-date=January 29, 2022|title=The Trump administration's major environmental deregulations|work=[[Brookings Institution]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;midnight&quot;/&gt; among others, including a bill that made it easier for severely mentally ill persons to buy guns.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine|last=Grunwald|first=Michael|title=Trump's Secret Weapon Against Obama's Legacy|url=https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/04/donald-trump-obama-legacy-215009/|magazine=[[Politico Magazine]]|date=April 10, 2017|access-date=January 29, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; During his first six weeks in office, he delayed, suspended, or reversed ninety federal regulations,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Lipton|first1=Eric|last2=Appelbaum|first2=Binyamin|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/05/us/politics/trump-deregulation-guns-wall-st-climate.html|title=Leashes Come Off Wall Street, Gun Sellers, Polluters and More|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=March 5, 2017|access-date=January 29, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; often &quot;after requests by the regulated industries&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Trump-Era Trend: Industries Protest. Regulations Rolled Back. A Dozen Examples|url=https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3480299-10-Examples-Industries-Push-Followed-by-Trump.html#document/p60/a341284|work=[[The New York Times]]|via=[[DocumentCloud]]|access-date=January 29, 2022|date=March 5, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Institute for Policy Integrity]] found that 78&amp;nbsp;percent of his proposals were blocked by courts or did not prevail over litigation.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Roundup: Trump-Era Agency Policy in the Courts|url=https://policyintegrity.org/trump-court-roundup|work=[[Institute for Policy Integrity]]|date=April 25, 2022|access-date=January 8, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; During his campaign, Trump vowed to repeal and replace the [[Affordable Care Act]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Kodjak|first=Alison|author-link=Alison Kodjak|title=Trump Can Kill Obamacare With Or Without Help From Congress|url=https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/11/09/501203831/trump-can-kill-obamacare-with-or-without-help-from-congress|access-date=January 12, 2017|work=[[NPR]]|date=November 9, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; In office, he scaled back the Act's implementation through executive orders.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/20/us/politics/trump-executive-order-obamacare.html|title=Trump Issues Executive Order Scaling Back Parts of Obamacare|last1=Davis|first1=Julie Hirschfeld|author-link1=Julie Hirschfeld Davis|last2=Pear|first2=Robert|author-link2=Robert Pear|date=January 20, 2017|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=January 23, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://money.cnn.com/2017/10/12/news/economy/trump-health-care-executive-order/index.html|title=What's in Trump's health care executive order?|first=Tami|last=Luhby|work=[[CNN]]|date=October 13, 2017|access-date=October 14, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; He expressed a desire to &quot;let Obamacare fail&quot;; his administration halved the [[Annual enrollment|enrollment period]] and drastically reduced funding for enrollment promotion.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/18/trump-tweet-obamacare-repeal-failure-240664|title=Trump says he plans to 'let Obamacare fail'|last=Nelson|first=Louis|date=July 18, 2017|work=[[Politico]]|access-date=September 29, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/trump-obamacare-sabotage-enrollment-cuts_us_59a87bffe4b0b5e530fd5751|title=Trump Ramps Up Obamacare Sabotage With Huge Cuts To Enrollment Programs|last=Young|first=Jeffrey|date=August 31, 2017|work=[[HuffPost]]|access-date=September 29, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; In June 2018, the Trump administration [[California v. Texas|joined 18 Republican-led states in arguing before the Supreme Court]] that the elimination of the financial penalties associated with the individual mandate had rendered the Act unconstitutional.&lt;ref name=StolbergACA&gt;{{cite news|first=Sheryl Gay|last=Stolberg|title=Trump Administration Asks Supreme Court to Strike Down Affordable Care Act|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/us/politics/obamacare-trump-administration-supreme-court.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=June 26, 2020|access-date=October 3, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Obamacare Must 'Fall,' Trump Administration Tells Supreme Court|url=https://www.npr.org/2020/06/26/883819835/obamacare-must-fall-trump-administration-tells-supreme-court|work=[[NPR]]|first=Mark|last=Katkov|date=June 26, 2020|access-date=September 29, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Their pleading would have eliminated [[Health insurance coverage in the United States|health insurance coverage]] for up to 23&amp;nbsp;million Americans, but was unsuccessful.&lt;ref name=StolbergACA/&gt; During the 2016 campaign, Trump promised to protect funding for Medicare and other social safety-net programs. In January 2020, he expressed willingness to consider cuts to them.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/22/us/politics/medicare-trump.html|title=Trump Opens Door to Cuts to Medicare and Other Entitlement Programs|first1=Alan|last1=Rappeport|author-link1=Alan Rappeport|first2=Maggie|last2=Haberman|author-link2=Maggie Haberman|date=January 22, 2020|access-date=January 24, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In response to the [[opioid epidemic in the United States|opioid epidemic]], Trump signed legislation in 2018 to increase funding for drug treatments, but was widely criticized for failing to make a concrete strategy. U.S. opioid overdose deaths declined slightly in 2018, but surged to a record 50,052 in 2019.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Mann|first=Brian|date=October 29, 2020|title=Opioid Crisis: Critics Say Trump Fumbled Response To Another Deadly Epidemic|work=[[NPR]]|url=https://www.npr.org/2020/10/29/927859091/opioid-crisis-critics-say-trump-fumbled-response-to-another-deadly-epidemic|access-date=December 13, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump barred organizations that provide abortions or abortion referrals from receiving federal funds.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Abortion: How do Trump and Biden's policies compare?|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54003808 |work=[[BBC News]]|access-date=July 17, 2023|date=September 9, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; He said he supported &quot;traditional marriage&quot;, but considered the [[Same-sex marriage in the United States|nationwide legality]] of [[same-sex marriage]] &quot;settled&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://cnn.com/2016/11/14/politics/trump-gay-marriage-abortion-supreme-court/|title=Trump: Same-sex marriage is 'settled', but Roe v Wade can be changed|work=[[CNN]]|first=Ariane|last=de Vogue|date=November 15, 2016|access-date=November 30, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; His administration rolled back key components of the Obama administration's workplace protections against [[Discrimination against LGBT people|discrimination of LGBTQ people]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/lgbtq-advocates-say-trump-s-news-executive-order-makes-them-n740301|title=LGBTQ Advocates Say Trump's New Executive Order Makes Them Vulnerable to Discrimination|publisher=[[NBC News]]|first=Mary Emily|last=O'Hara|date=March 30, 2017|access-date=July 30, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; His attempted rollback of anti-discrimination protections for [[transgender]] patients in August 2020 was halted by a federal judge after a Supreme Court ruling extended employees' civil rights protections to [[gender identity]] and sexual orientation.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Luthi|first=Susannah|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/17/judge-trump-rollback-transgender-health-397332|title=Judge halts Trump's rollback of transgender health protections|work=[[Politico]]|date=August 17, 2020|access-date=November 8, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump has said he is [[Gun politics in the United States|opposed]] to [[gun control]], although his views have shifted over time.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://cnn.com/2016/06/20/politics/donald-trump-gun-positions-nra-orlando/|title=The times Trump changed his positions on guns|work=[[CNN]]|date=June 20, 2016|access-date=October 3, 2021|first=Gregory|last=Krieg}}&lt;/ref&gt; After several [[mass shootings in the United States|mass shootings]] during his term, he said he would propose legislation related to guns, but he abandoned that effort in November 2019.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-quietly-abandons-proposing-ideas-to-curb-gun-violence-after-saying-he-would-following-mass-shootings/2019/10/31/8bca030c-fa6e-11e9-9534-e0dbcc9f5683_story.html|title=Trump abandons proposing ideas to curb gun violence after saying he would following mass shootings|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|first=Josh|last=Dawsey|author-link=Josh Dawsey|date=November 1, 2019|access-date=October 3, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; His administration took an [[Cannabis policy of the Donald Trump administration|anti-marijuana position]], revoking [[Cole Memorandum|Obama-era policies]] that provided protections for states that legalized marijuana.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Bures|first=Brendan|date=February 21, 2020|access-date=October 3, 2021|title=Trump administration doubles down on anti-marijuana position|work=[[Chicago Tribune]]|url=https://www.chicagotribune.com/marijuana/sns-tft-trump-anti-marijuana-stance-20200221-jfdx4urbb5bhrf6ldtfpxleopi-story.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump is a long-time advocate of capital punishment.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Wolf|first=Zachary B.|title=Trump returns to the death penalty as Democrats turn against it|url=https://cnn.com/2019/07/27/politics/death-penalty-trump-democrats/|work=[[CNN]]|access-date=September 18, 2022|date=July 27, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Honderich|first=Holly|title=In Trump's final days, a rush of federal executions|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55236260|work=[[BBC]]|date=January 16, 2021|access-date=September 18, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; Under his administration, the [[Capital punishment by the United States federal government|federal government executed]] 13 prisoners, more than in the previous 56 years combined, ending a 17-year moratorium.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Michael|last1=Tarm|first2=Michael|last2=Kunzelman|title=Trump administration carries out 13th and final execution|url=https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-wildlife-coronavirus-pandemic-crime-terre-haute-28e44cc5c026dc16472751bbde0ead50|work=[[AP News]]|date=January 15, 2021|access-date=January 30, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2016, he said he supported the use of interrogation torture methods such as [[waterboarding]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=McCarthy|first=Tom|title=Donald Trump: I'd bring back 'a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding'|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/donald-trump-waterboarding-republican-debate-torture|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=February 7, 2016|access-date=February 8, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Ted Cruz, Donald Trump Advocate Bringing Back Waterboarding|url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/ted-cruz-donald-trump-advocate-bringing-back-waterboarding-36764410|work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]|date=February 6, 2016|access-date=February 9, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:President Trump Visits St. John's Episcopal Church (49964153176).jpg|thumb|Trump and group of officials and advisors on the way from the White House to St. John's Church]] In June 2020, during the [[George Floyd protests]], federal law-enforcement officials controversially used [[less lethal]] weapons to remove a largely peaceful crowd of lawful protesters from [[Lafayette Square, Washington, D.C.|Lafayette Square]], outside the [[White House]].&lt;ref name=&quot;wb&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Leonnig|first1=Carol D.|author-link1=Carol D. Leonnig|last2=Zapotosky|first2=Matt|last3=Dawsey|first3=Josh|author-link3=Josh Dawsey|last4=Tan|first4=Rebecca|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/barr-personally-ordered-removal-of-protesters-near-white-house-leading-to-use-of-force-against-largely-peaceful-crowd/2020/06/02/0ca2417c-a4d5-11ea-b473-04905b1af82b_story.html|title=Barr personally ordered removal of protesters near White House, leading to use of force against largely peaceful crowd|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 2, 2020|access-date=June 3, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;bumpline&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Bump|first=Philip|date=June 2, 2020|title=Timeline: The clearing of Lafayette Square|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/02/timeline-clearing-lafayette-square/|access-date=June 6, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump then posed with a Bible for [[Donald Trump photo-op at St. John's Church|a photo-op]] at the nearby [[St. John's Episcopal Church, Lafayette Square|St. John's Episcopal Church]],&lt;ref name=&quot;wb&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Gittleson|first1=Ben|last2=Phelps|first2=Jordyn|title=Police use munitions to forcibly push back peaceful protesters for Trump church visit|url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/national-guard-troops-deployed-white-house-trump-calls/story?id=71004151|access-date=June 29, 2021|work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]|date=June 3, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=O'Neil|first=Luke|date=June 2, 2020|title=What do we know about Trump's love for the Bible?|work=[[The Guardian]]|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/02/what-do-we-know-about-trumps-love-for-the-bible|access-date=June 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; with religious leaders condemning both the treatment of protesters and the photo opportunity itself.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Stableford|first1=Dylan|last2=Wilson|first2=Christopher|title=Religious leaders condemn teargassing protesters to clear street for Trump|url=https://news.yahoo.com/religious-leaders-condemn-gassing-protesters-to-clear-street-for-trump-192800782.html|access-date=June 8, 2020|work=[[Yahoo! News]]|date=June 3, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Many retired military leaders and defense officials condemned his proposal to use the U.S. military against anti-police-brutality protesters.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Scores of retired military leaders publicly denounce Trump|url=https://apnews.com/article/252914f8a989a740544be6d4992d044c|access-date=June 8, 2020|work=[[AP News]]|date=June 6, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Pardons and commutations === {{Further|List of people granted executive clemency by Donald Trump}} Trump granted 237 requests for clemency, fewer than all presidents since 1900 with the exception of [[George H. W. Bush]] and [[George W. Bush]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Gramlich|first=John|url=https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/01/22/trump-used-his-clemency-power-sparingly-despite-a-raft-of-late-pardons-and-commutations/|title=Trump used his clemency power sparingly despite a raft of late pardons and commutations|work=[[Pew Research Center]]|date=January 22, 2021|access-date=July 23, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Only 25 of them had been vetted by the Justice Department's [[Office of the Pardon Attorney]]; the others were granted to people with personal or political connections to him, his family, and his allies, or recommended by celebrities.&lt;ref name=&quot;road&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Vogel|first=Kenneth P.|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/27/us/politics/trump-pardons.html|title=The Road to Clemency From Trump Was Closed to Most Who Sought It|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=March 21, 2021|access-date=July 23, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;OloDaw&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-pardon-power-russia-probe-mueller/2020/12/24/c55000c8-45fd-11eb-b0e4-0f182923a025_story.html|date=December 24, 2020|access-date=October 3, 2021|title=Trump wields pardon power as political weapon, rewarding loyalists and undermining prosecutors|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|first1=Toluse|last1=Olorunnipa|first2=Josh|last2=Dawsey|author-link2=Josh Dawsey}}&lt;/ref&gt; In his last full day in office, he granted 73 pardons and commuted 70 sentences.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Kevin|last1=Johnson|first2=David|last2=Jackson|first3=Dennis|last3=Wagner|url=https://usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/01/19/donald-trump-pardons-steve-bannon-white-house/4209763001/|title=Donald Trump grants clemency to 144 people (not himself or family members) in final hours|date=January 19, 2021|work=[[USA Today]]|access-date=July 23, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Several Trump allies were not eligible for pardons under Justice Department rules, and in other cases the department had opposed clemency.&lt;ref name=&quot;road&quot;/&gt; The pardons of three military service members convicted of or charged with violent crimes were opposed by military leaders.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Phillips|first=Dave|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/15/us/trump-pardons.html|title=Trump Clears Three Service Members in War Crimes Cases|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=November 22, 2019|access-date=April 18, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Immigration === {{Main|Immigration policy of Donald Trump}} Trump's proposed immigration policies were a topic of bitter debate during the 2016 campaign. He promised to build [[Trump wall|a wall]] on the [[Mexico–U.S. border]] to restrict illegal movement and vowed that Mexico would pay for it.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37243269|title=Donald Trump's Mexico wall: Who is going to pay for it?|date=February 6, 2017|work=[[BBC]]|access-date=December 9, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; He pledged to deport millions of [[Illegal immigrant population of the United States|illegal immigrants residing in the U.S.]],&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Donald Trump emphasizes plans to build 'real' wall at Mexico border|url=https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/donald-trump-emphasizes-plans-to-build-real-wall-at-mexico-border-1.3196807|work=[[Canadian Broadcasting Corporation]]|access-date=September 29, 2015|date=August 19, 2015}}&lt;/ref&gt; and criticized [[Birthright citizenship in the United States|birthright citizenship]] for incentivizing &quot;[[anchor babies]]&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/08/donald-trump-has-some-thoughts-about-the-constitution|title=Donald Trump: The 14th Amendment is Unconstitutional|work=[[Mother Jones (magazine)|Mother Jones]]|date=August 19, 2015|access-date=November 22, 2015|first=Inae|last=Oh}}&lt;/ref&gt; As president, he frequently described illegal immigration as an &quot;invasion&quot; and conflated immigrants with the criminal gang [[MS-13]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/08/08/trump-immigrants-rhetoric-criticized-el-paso-dayton-shootings/1936742001/|title=A USA Today analysis found Trump used words like 'invasion' and 'killer' at rallies more than 500 times since 2017|last=Fritze|first=John|work=[[USA Today]]|access-date=August 9, 2019|date=August 8, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump drastically escalated immigration enforcement, including implementing harsher immigration enforcement policies against asylum seekers from Central America than any modern U.S. president.{{sfn|Johnson|2017a}}{{sfn|Johnson|Cuison-Villazor|2019}} From 2018 onward, Trump [[Operation Faithful Patriot|deployed nearly 6,000 troops to the U.S.–Mexico border]]&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Mitchell|first=Ellen|title=Pentagon to send a 'few thousand' more troops to southern border|url=https://thehill.com/policy/defense/427519-pentagon-to-send-a-few-thousand-more-troops-to-southern-border|access-date=June 4, 2020|work=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]]|date=January 29, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; to stop most Central American migrants from seeking asylum. In 2020, his administration widened the [[public charge rule]] to further restrict immigrants who might use government benefits from getting permanent residency.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Snow|first=Anita|title=Crackdown on immigrants who use public benefits takes effect|url=https://apnews.com/article/e069e5a84057752a8535b1abe5d2ba6d|access-date=June 4, 2020|work=[[AP News]]|date=February 25, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; He reduced the number of [[United States Refugee Admissions Program|refugees admitted]] to record lows. When he took office, the annual limit was 110,000; he set a limit of 18,000 in the 2020 fiscal year and 15,000 in the 2021 fiscal year.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Donald Trump has cut refugee admissions to America to a record low|url=https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/11/04/donald-trump-has-cut-refugee-admissions-to-america-to-a-record-low|access-date=June 25, 2020|newspaper=[[The Economist]]|date=November 4, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Trump Virtually Cuts Off Refugees as He Unleashes a Tirade on Immigrants|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/01/us/politics/trump-refugees.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=October 1, 2020|access-date=September 30, 2021|first1=Zolan|last1=Kanno-Youngs|author-link1=Zolan Kanno-Youngs|first2=Michael D.|last2=Shear|author-link2=Michael D. Shear}}&lt;/ref&gt; Additional restrictions implemented by the Trump administration caused significant bottlenecks in processing refugee applications, resulting in fewer refugees accepted than the allowed limits.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Hesson|first=Ted|title=Trump ending U.S. role as worldwide leader on refugees|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/11/trump-refugee-decrease-immigration-044186|access-date=June 25, 2020|work=[[Politico]]|date=October 11, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Travel ban ==== {{Main|Trump travel ban}} {{Further|Executive Order 13769|Executive Order 13780}} Following the [[2015 San Bernardino attack]], Trump proposed to ban [[Muslim]] foreigners from entering the U.S. until stronger vetting systems could be implemented.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Pilkington|first=Ed|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/07/donald-trump-ban-all-muslims-entering-us-san-bernardino-shooting|title=Donald Trump: ban all Muslims entering US|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=December 8, 2015|access-date=October 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; He later reframed the proposed ban to apply to countries with a &quot;proven history of terrorism&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 25, 2016|access-date=October 3, 2021|first=Jenna|last=Johnson|title=Trump now proposes only Muslims from terrorism-heavy countries would be banned from U.S.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/06/25/trump-now-says-muslim-ban-only-applies-to-those-from-terrorism-heavy-countries/}}&lt;/ref&gt; On January&amp;nbsp;27, 2017, Trump signed [[Executive Order 13769]], which suspended admission of refugees for 120 days and denied entry to citizens of Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen for 90 days, citing security concerns. The order took effect immediately and without warning, causing chaos at airports.&lt;ref name=&quot;frontline&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/28/airports-us-immigration-ban-muslim-countries-trump|title=US airports on frontline as Donald Trump's travel ban causes chaos and protests|date=January 28, 2017|work=[[The Guardian]]|first1=Joanna|last1=Walters|first2=Edward|last2=Helmore|first3=Saeed Kamali|last3=Dehghan|access-date=July 19, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;airport&quot;&gt;{{cite news|title=Protests erupt at airports nationwide over immigration action|url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/protests-airports-immigration-action-president-trump/|work=[[CBS News]]|date=January 28, 2017|access-date=March 22, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Protests against Executive Order 13769|Protests began at airports]] the next day,&lt;ref name=&quot;frontline&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;airport&quot;/&gt; and [[Legal challenges to the Trump travel ban|legal challenges]] resulted in [[National injunctions|nationwide preliminary injunctions]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[The Wall Street Journal]]|date=February 4, 2017|access-date=October 3, 2021|first1=Devlin|last1=Barrett|first2=Dan|last2=Frosch|title=Federal Judge Temporarily Halts Trump Order on Immigration, Refugees|url=https://www.wsj.com/articles/legal-feud-over-trump-immigration-order-turns-to-visa-revocations-1486153216}}&lt;/ref&gt; A March&amp;nbsp;6 [[Executive Order 13780|revised order]], which excluded Iraq and gave other exemptions, again was blocked by federal judges in three states.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[Reuters]]|date=March 15, 2017|access-date=October 3, 2021|first1=Dan|last1=Levine|first2=Mica|last2=Rosenberg|title=Hawaii judge halts Trump's new travel ban before it can go into effect|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-court-idUSKBN16M17N}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Trump signs new travel ban directive|url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39183153|access-date=March 18, 2017|work=[[BBC News]]|date=March 6, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; In a [[Int'l Refugee Assistance Project v. Trump|decision in June 2017]], the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]] ruled that the ban could be enforced on visitors who lack a &quot;credible claim of a ''bona fide'' relationship with a person or entity in the United States&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-travel-ban-supreme-court-20170626-story.html|title=Limited version of Trump's travel ban to take effect Thursday|work=[[Chicago Tribune]]|first=Mark|last=Sherman|agency=[[Associated Press]]|date=June 26, 2017|access-date=August 5, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; The temporary order was replaced by [[Presidential Proclamation 9645]] on September&amp;nbsp;24, 2017, which restricted travel from the originally targeted countries except Iraq and Sudan, and further banned travelers from North Korea and Chad, along with certain Venezuelan officials.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Laughland|first=Oliver|date=September 25, 2017|title=Trump travel ban extended to blocks on North Korea, Venezuela and Chad|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/25/trump-travel-ban-extended-to-blocks-on-north-korea-and-venezuela|work=[[The Guardian]]|access-date=October 13, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; After lower courts partially blocked the new restrictions, the Supreme Court allowed the September version to go into full effect on December&amp;nbsp;4, 2017,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Supreme Court lets Trump's latest travel ban go into full effect|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-immigration/supreme-court-lets-trumps-latest-travel-ban-go-into-full-effect-idUSKBN1DY2NY|first=Lawrence|last=Hurley|date=December 4, 2017|access-date=October 3, 2021|work=[[Reuters]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and ultimately upheld the travel ban in a ruling in June 2019.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Wagner|first1=Meg|last2=Ries|first2=Brian|last3=Rocha|first3=Veronica|url=https://cnn.com/politics/live-news/supreme-court-travel-ban/|title=Supreme Court upholds travel ban|work=[[CNN]]|date=June 26, 2018|access-date=June 26, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Family separation at the border ==== {{Main|Trump administration family separation policy}} {{#invoke:multiple image| | direction = vertical | width = 220 | image1 = Ursula (detention center) 1.png | alt1 = Children sitting within a wire mesh compartment | image2 = Ursula (detention center) 2.jpg | alt2 = Children and juveniles in a wire mesh compartment, showing sleeping mats and thermal blankets on floor | footer = Children sitting within a wire mesh compartment in the [[Ursula detention facility]] in [[McAllen, Texas]], June 2018 }} The Trump administration separated more than 5,400 children of migrant families from their parents at the U.S.–Mexico border, a sharp increase in the number of family separations at the border starting from the summer of 2017.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Pearle|first=Lauren|title=Trump administration admits thousands more migrant families may have been separated than estimated|url=https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-administration-unsure-thousands-migrant-families-separated-originally/story?id=60797633|access-date=May 30, 2020|work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]|date=February 5, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Spagat&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Spagat|first=Elliot|date=October 25, 2019|title=Tally of children split at border tops 5,400 in new count|work=[[AP News]]|url=https://apnews.com/article/c654e652a4674cf19304a4a4ff599feb|access-date=May 30, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; In April 2018, the administration announced a &quot;[[Trump administration family separation policy|zero tolerance]]&quot; policy whereby adults suspected of [[illegal entry]] were to be detained and criminally prosecuted while their children were taken away as unaccompanied alien minors.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Davis|first1=Julie Hirschfeld|author-link1=Julie Hirschfeld Davis|last2=Shear|first2=Michael D.|author-link2=Michael D. Shear|title=How Trump Came to Enforce a Practice of Separating Migrant Families|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/16/us/politics/family-separation-trump.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=May 30, 2020|date=June 16, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Savage|first=Charlie|author-link=Charlie Savage (author)|title=Explaining Trump's Executive Order on Family Separation|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/family-separation-executive-order.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=May 30, 2020|date=June 20, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; The policy was unprecedented in previous administrations and sparked public outrage.&lt;ref name=&quot;Domonoske&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Domonoske|first1=Camila|last2=Gonzales|first2=Richard|date=June 19, 2018|title=What We Know: Family Separation And 'Zero Tolerance' At The Border|work=[[NPR]]|url=https://www.npr.org/2018/06/19/621065383/what-we-know-family-separation-and-zero-tolerance-at-the-border|access-date=May 30, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Epstein|first=Jennifer|title=Donald Trump's family separations bedevil GOP as public outrage grows|url=https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/donald-trump-s-family-separations-bedevil-gop-as-public-outrage-grows-20180618-p4zm9h.html|access-date=May 30, 2020|via=[[The Sydney Morning Herald]]|work=[[Bloomberg News]]|date=June 18, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump falsely asserted that his administration was merely following the law, blaming Democrats, despite the separations being his administration's policy.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/politics/trump-immigration-separation-border.html|title=Separated at the Border From Their Parents: In Six Weeks, 1,995 Children|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=June 15, 2018|access-date=June 18, 2018|last=Davis|first=Julie Hirschfeld|author-link=Julie Hirschfeld Davis}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/despite-claims-gop-immigration-bill-would-not-end-family-separation-n883701|title=Despite claims, GOP immigration bill would not end family separation, experts say|work=[[NBC News]]|date=June 15, 2018|access-date=June 18, 2018|last=Sarlin|first=Benjy}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Davis|first1=Julie Hirschfeld|author-link1=Julie Hirschfeld Davis|last2=Nixon|first2=Ron|author-link2=Ron Nixon|date=May 29, 2018|title=Trump Officials, Moving to Break Up Migrant Families, Blame Democrats|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/us/politics/trump-democrats-immigrant-families.html|access-date=December 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Although Trump originally argued that the separations could not be stopped by an executive order, he acceded to intense public objection and signed an executive order in June 2018, mandating that migrant families be detained together unless &quot;there is a concern&quot; of a risk to the child.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Beckwith|first=Ryan Teague|title=Here's What President Trump's Immigration Order Actually Does|url=https://time.com/5317703/trump-family-separation-policy-executive-order/|access-date=May 30, 2020|magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]|date=June 20, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=June 20, 2018|first1=Michael D.|last1=Shear|author-link1=Michael D. Shear|first2=Abby|last2=Goodnough|first3=Maggie|last3=Haberman|author-link3=Maggie Haberman|title=Trump Retreats on Separating Families, but Thousands May Remain Apart|access-date=June 20, 2018|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/trump-immigration-children-executive-order.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; On June&amp;nbsp;26, 2018, Judge [[Dana Sabraw]] concluded that the Trump administration had &quot;no system in place to keep track of&quot; the separated children, nor any effective measures for family communication and reunification;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Hansler|first=Jennifer|title=Judge says government does a better job of tracking 'personal property' than separated kids|url=https://cnn.com/2018/06/27/politics/family-separation-federal-judge-personal-property-comment/|access-date=May 30, 2020|work=[[CNN]]|date=June 27, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; Sabraw ordered for the families to be reunited and family separations stopped except in limited circumstances.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/27/us-immigration-must-reunite-families-separated-at-border-federal-judge-rules|title=Judge orders US to reunite families separated at border within 30 days|last=Walters|first=Joanna|date=June 27, 2018|work=[[The Guardian]]|access-date=May 30, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; After the order, the administration separated more than a thousand migrant children from their families; the [[ACLU]] contended that the administration had abused its discretion and asked Sabraw to more narrowly define the circumstances warranting separation.&lt;ref name=&quot;Spagat&quot;/&gt; ==== Trump wall and government shutdown ==== {{Main|Trump wall|2018–2019 United States federal government shutdown}} [[File:Donald Trump visits San Diego border wall prototypes.jpg|thumb|Trump examines border wall prototypes in [[Otay Mesa, California]].|alt=Trump speaks with U.S. Border Patrol agents. Behind him are black SUVs, four short border wall prototype designs, and the current border wall in the background]] One of Trump's central campaign promises was to build a {{convert|1,000|mi|km|adj=on}} border wall to Mexico and have Mexico pay for it.&lt;ref name=&quot;timm&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Timm|first=Jane C.|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/fact-check-mexico-never-paid-it-what-about-trump-s-n1253983|title=Fact check: Mexico never paid for it. But what about Trump's other border wall promises?|work=[[NBC News]]|date=January 13, 2021|access-date=December 21, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; By the end of his term, the U.S. had built &quot;{{convert|40|mi|km|disp=sqbr}} of new primary wall and {{convert|33|mi|km|disp=sqbr}} of secondary wall&quot; in locations where there had been no barriers and {{convert|365|mi|km}} of primary or secondary border fencing replacing dilapidated or outdated barriers.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Farley|first=Robert|url=https://www.factcheck.org/2020/12/trumps-border-wall-where-does-it-stand/|title=Trump's Border Wall: Where Does It Stand?|work=[[FactCheck.org]]|date=February 16, 2021 |access-date=December 21, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2018, Trump refused to sign any [[appropriations bill]] from Congress unless it allocated $5.6&amp;nbsp;billion for the border wall,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Julie Hirschfeld|last1=Davis|author-link1=Julie Hirschfeld Davis|first2=Michael|last2=Tackett|author-link2=Michael Tackett|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/02/us/politics/trump-congress-shutdown.html|title=Trump and Democrats Dig in After Talks to Reopen Government Go Nowhere|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=January 2, 2019|access-date=January 3, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; resulting in the federal government partially shutting down for 35 days from December 2018 to January 2019, the [[List of United States federal funding gaps|longest U.S. government shutdown in history]].&lt;ref name=Gambino&gt;{{cite news|last1=Gambino|first1=Lauren|last2=Walters|first2=Joanna|title=Trump signs bill to end $6bn shutdown and temporarily reopen government|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/25/shutdown-latest-news-trump-reopens-government-deal-democrats|access-date=May 31, 2020|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=January 26, 2019|agency=[[Reuters]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Pramuk|first=Jacob|title=Trump signs bill to temporarily reopen government after longest shutdown in history|url=https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/25/senate-votes-to-reopen-government-and-end-shutdown-without-border-wall.html|access-date=May 31, 2020|work=[[CNBC]]|date=January 25, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; Around 800,000 government employees were [[furlough]]ed or worked without pay.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Fritze|first=John|title=By the numbers: How the government shutdown is affecting the US|url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/24/government-shutdown-has-wide-impact-numbers/2666872002/|access-date=May 31, 2020|work=[[USA Today]]|date=January 24, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump and Congress ended the shutdown by approving temporary funding that provided delayed payments to government workers, but no funds for the wall.&lt;ref name=Gambino/&gt; The shutdown resulted in an estimated permanent loss of $3&amp;nbsp;billion to the economy, according to the [[Congressional Budget Office]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/28/government-shutdown-cost-the-economy-11-billion-cbo.html|title=The government shutdown cost the economy $11 billion, including a permanent $3 billion loss, Congressional Budget Office says|last=Mui|first=Ylan|date=January 28, 2019|work=[[CNBC]]|access-date=May 31, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; About half of those polled blamed Trump for the shutdown, and his approval ratings dropped.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Bacon|first=Perry Jr.|title=Why Trump Blinked|url=https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/government-shutdown-ends/|work=[[FiveThirtyEight]]|date=January 25, 2019|access-date=October 3, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; To prevent another imminent shutdown in February 2019, Congress passed and Trump signed a funding bill that included $1.375&amp;nbsp;billion for {{convert|55|mi|km}} of bollard border fencing.&lt;ref name=Wilkie&gt;{{cite news|last1=Pramuk|first1=Jacob|last2=Wilkie|first2=Christina|title=Trump declares national emergency to build border wall, setting up massive legal fight|url=https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/15/trump-national-emergency-declaration-border-wall-spending-bill.html|access-date=May 31, 2020|work=[[CNBC]]|date=February 15, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; He also declared a [[National Emergency Concerning the Southern Border of the United States|national emergency on the southern border]], intending to divert $6.1&amp;nbsp;billion of funds Congress had allocated to other purposes.&lt;ref name=Wilkie/&gt; [[Veto power in the United States#In federal government|He vetoed]] a [[joint resolution]] to overturn the declaration, and the Senate voted against a [[veto override]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Carney|first=Jordain|title=Senate fails to override Trump veto over emergency declaration|url=https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/466313-senate-fails-to-override-trumps-emergency-declaration-veto|access-date=May 31, 2020|work=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]]|date=October 17, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; Legal challenges to the diversion of $2.5&amp;nbsp;billion originally meant for the [[Department of Defense]]'s drug interdiction efforts&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-allows-trump-to-use-military-funds-for-border-wall-construction/|title=Supreme Court allows Trump to use military funds for border wall construction|first=Melissa|last=Quinn|date=December 11, 2019|work=[[CBS News]]|access-date=September 19, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{ussc|name=Trump v. Sierra Club|docket=19A60|volume=588|year=2019|el=no}}&lt;/ref&gt; and $3.6&amp;nbsp;billion originally meant for military construction&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.npr.org/2020/01/09/794969121/appeals-court-allows-trump-to-divert-3-6-billion-in-military-funds-for-border-wa|title=Appeals Court Allows Trump To Divert $3.6 Billion In Military Funds For Border Wall|first=Bobby|last=Allyn|date=January 9, 2020|access-date=September 19, 2022|work=[[NPR]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite court|litigants=El Paso Cty. v. Trump|vol=982|reporter=F.3d|opinion=332|court=5th Cir.|date=December 4, 2020|url=https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/USCOURTS-ca5-19-51144/USCOURTS-ca5-19-51144-0 |access-date=September 19, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; were unsuccessful. === Foreign policy === {{Main|Foreign policy of the first Donald Trump administration}} {{See also|List of international presidential trips made by Donald Trump#First presidency (2017–2021)}} [[File:-G7Biarritz (48616362963).jpg|thumb|Trump with the other [[Group of Seven|G7]] leaders at the [[45th G7 summit|45th summit]] in France, 2019|alt=Trump and other G7 leaders sit at a conference table]] Trump described himself as a &quot;nationalist&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=William|last=Cummings|title='I am a nationalist': Trump's embrace of controversial label sparks uproar|url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/10/24/trump-says-hes-nationalist-what-means-why-its-controversial/1748521002/|work=[[USA Today]]|date=October 24, 2018|access-date=August 24, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; and his foreign policy as &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot;.&lt;ref name=Bennhold&gt;{{cite news|first=Katrin|last=Bennhold|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/world/europe/germany-troop-withdrawal-america.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|title=Has 'America First' Become 'Trump First'? Germans Wonder|date=June 6, 2020|access-date=August 24, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; He praised and supported [[populist]], [[neo-nationalist]], and authoritarian governments.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://carnegieendowment.org/2018/10/01/can-u.s.-democracy-policy-survive-trump-pub-77381|title=Can U.S. Democracy Policy Survive Trump?|last1=Carothers|first1=Thomas|last2=Brown|first2=Frances Z.|date=October 1, 2018|website=[[Carnegie Endowment for International Peace]]|access-date=October 19, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; Hallmarks of foreign relations during his tenure included unpredictability, uncertainty, and inconsistency.&lt;ref name=Bennhold/&gt;{{sfn|McGurk|2020}} Tensions between the U.S. and its European allies were strained under Trump.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Ana|last=Swanson|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/business/economy/trump-european-union-trade.html|title=Trump Administration Escalates Tensions With Europe as Crisis Looms|date=March 12, 2020|access-date=October 4, 2021|work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He criticized [[Member states of NATO|NATO allies]] and privately suggested on multiple occasions that the U.S. should [[Withdrawal from NATO#United States|withdraw from NATO]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Baker|first=Peter|author-link=Peter Baker (journalist)|date=May 26, 2017 |access-date=October 4, 2021|title=Trump Says NATO Allies Don't Pay Their Share. Is That True?|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/world/europe/nato-trump-spending.html}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Barnes|first1=Julian E.|last2=Cooper|first2=Helene|author-link2=Helene Cooper|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-president-trump.html|title=Trump Discussed Pulling U.S. From NATO, Aides Say Amid New Concerns Over Russia|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=January 14, 2019 |access-date=April 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Trade ==== {{See also|Trump tariffs}} Trump withdrew the U.S. from the [[Trans-Pacific Partnership]] (TPP) negotiations,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://cnn.com/2017/01/23/politics/trump-tpp-things-to-know/|title=Trump's TPP withdrawal: 5 things to know|last=Bradner|first=Eric|date=January 23, 2017|work=[[CNN]]|access-date=March 12, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; imposed tariffs on steel and aluminum imports,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/mar/10/war-over-steel-trump-tips-global-trade-turmoil-tariffs|title=The war over steel: Trump tips global trade into new turmoil|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=March 10, 2018|access-date=March 15, 2018|last=Inman|first=Phillip}}&lt;/ref&gt; and launched a [[China–United States trade war|trade war with China]] by sharply increasing tariffs on 818 categories (worth $50&amp;nbsp;billion) of Chinese goods imported into the U.S.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-ministry/trump-sets-tariffs-on-50-billion-in-chinese-goods-beijing-strikes-back-idUSKBN1JB0KC|title=Trump sets tariffs on $50 billion in Chinese goods; Beijing strikes back|date=June 15, 2018|access-date=October 3, 2021|work=[[Reuters]]|first1=David|last1=Lawder|first2=Ben|last2=Blanchard}}&lt;/ref&gt; While he said that import tariffs are paid by China into the [[U.S. Treasury]], they are paid by American companies that import goods from China.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Singh|first=Rajesh Kumar|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-tariffs-explainer-idUSKCN1UR5YZ|title=Explainer: Trump's China tariffs – Paid by U.S. importers, not by China|work=[[Reuters]]|date=August 2, 2019|access-date=November 27, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; Although he pledged during the campaign to significantly reduce the U.S.'s large [[trade deficits]], the trade deficit skyrocketed under Trump.&lt;ref name=&quot;Palmer 2021&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Palmer|first1=Doug| title=America's trade gap soared under Trump, final figures show|work=[[Politico]]|date=February 5, 2021|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2021/02/05/2020-trade-figures-trump-failure-deficit-466116|access-date=June 1, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; Following a 2017–2018 renegotiation, the [[United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement]] (USMCA) became effective in July 2020 as the successor to NAFTA.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Rodriguez|first=Sabrina|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/24/north-american-trade-deal-to-take-effect-on-july-1-207402|title=North American trade deal to take effect on July 1|date=April 24, 2020|access-date=January 31, 2022|work=[[Politico]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Russia ==== {{See also|Russia–United States relations#First Trump administration (2017–2021)}} [[File:President Trump at the G20 (48144047611).jpg|thumb|[[Vladimir Putin]] and Trump shaking hands at the [[G20 Osaka summit]], June 2019|alt=Trump and Putin, both seated, lean over and shake hands]] The Trump administration weakened the toughest sanctions imposed by the U.S. against Russian entities after Russia's [[2014 annexation of Crimea]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Patricia|last=Zengerle|title=Bid to keep U.S. sanctions on Russia's Rusal fails in Senate|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-sanctions/bid-to-keep-u-s-sanctions-on-russias-rusal-fails-in-senate-idUSKCN1PA2JB|work=[[Reuters]]|date=January 16, 2019|access-date=October 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Jeanne|last=Whalen|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/01/16/rare-rebuke-trump-administration-some-gop-lawmakers-advance-measure-oppose-lifting-russian-sanctions/|title=In rare rebuke of Trump administration, some GOP lawmakers advance measure to oppose lifting Russian sanctions|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=January 15, 2019|access-date=October 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump withdrew the U.S. from the [[Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty]], citing alleged Russian noncompliance,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Shannon|last=Bugos|title=U.S. Completes INF Treaty Withdrawal|url=https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2019-09/news/us-completes-inf-treaty-withdrawal|website=[[Arms Control Association]]|date=September 2019|access-date=October 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; and supported a potential return of Russia to the [[G7]].&lt;ref name=&quot;G8&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Panetta|first=Grace|date=June 14, 2018|title=Trump reportedly claimed to leaders at the G7 that Crimea is part of Russia because everyone there speaks Russian|work=[[Business Insider]]|url=https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-claims-crimea-is-part-of-russia-since-people-speak-russian-g7-summit-2018-6|access-date=February 13, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump repeatedly praised and rarely criticized Russian president [[Vladimir Putin]]&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Baker|first=Peter|author-link=Peter Baker (journalist)|date=August 10, 2017|title=Trump Praises Putin Instead of Critiquing Cuts to U.S. Embassy Staff|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/10/world/europe/putin-trump-embassy-russia.html|access-date=June 7, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Nussbaum|first=Matthew|date=April 8, 2018|access-date=October 5, 2021|title=Trump blames Putin for backing 'Animal Assad'|work=[[Politico]]|url=https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/08/trump-putin-syria-attack-508223}}&lt;/ref&gt; but opposed some actions of the Russian government.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Nord Stream 2: Trump approves sanctions on Russia gas pipeline|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50875935|work=[[BBC News]]|date=December 21, 2019|access-date=October 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Trump expelling 60 Russian diplomats in wake of UK nerve agent attack|url=https://cnn.com/2018/03/26/politics/us-expel-russian-diplomats/|work=[[CNN]]|first1=Jeremy|last1=Diamond|author-link1=Jeremy Diamond|first2=Allie|last2=Malloy|first3=Angela|last3=Dewan|date=March 26, 2018|access-date=October 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; After he met Putin at the [[Helsinki Summit]] in 2018, he drew bipartisan criticism for accepting Putin's denial of [[Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election]], rather than accepting the findings of U.S. intelligence agencies.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Zurcher|first=Anthony|title=Trump-Putin summit: After Helsinki, the fallout at home|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44830012|access-date=July 18, 2018|work=[[BBC]]|date=July 16, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/07/trump-putin/565238/|title=Trump Sides With the Kremlin, Against the U.S. Government|last=Calamur|first=Krishnadev|date=July 16, 2018|work=[[The Atlantic]]|access-date=July 18, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://cnn.com/2018/07/16/politics/congress-reaction-trump-putin-comments/|title=Top Republicans in Congress break with Trump over Putin comments|last=Fox|first=Lauren|date=July 16, 2018|work=[[CNN]]|access-date=July 18, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; He did not discuss alleged [[Russian bounties]] offered to [[Taliban]] fighters for attacking American soldiers in Afghanistan with Putin, saying both that he doubted the intelligence and that he was not briefed on it.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Savage|first1=Charlie|author-link1=Charlie Savage (author)|last2=Schmitt|first2=Eric|author-link2=Eric P. Schmitt|last3=Schwirtz|first3=Michael|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/07/us/politics/russian-bounties-nsc.html|title=Russian Spy Team Left Traces That Bolstered C.I.A.'s Bounty Judgment|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=May 17, 2021 |access-date=March 4, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== East Asia ==== ===== China, Hong Kong, Taiwan ===== {{See also|China–United States relations#First Trump administration (2017–2021)}} [[File:Donald Trump and Xi Jinping meets at 2018 G20 Summit.jpg|thumb|Trump and Chinese leader [[Xi Jinping]] at the [[G20 Buenos Aires summit]], December 2018|alt=Donald Trump and Xi Jinping stand next to each other, both smiling and wearing suits]] Trump repeatedly accused China of taking unfair advantage of the U.S.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-idUSKCN1UX1WO|title=Trump says China is 'killing us with unfair trade deals'|date=August 7, 2019|work=[[Reuters]]|access-date=August 24, 2019|first1=Nandita|last1=Bose|first2=Andrea|last2=Shalal}}&lt;/ref&gt; He [[China–United States trade war|launched a trade war against China]] that was widely characterized as a failure,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=More pain than gain: How the US-China trade war hurt America|last1=Hass|first1=Ryan|last2=Denmark|first2=Abraham|url=https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2020/08/07/more-pain-than-gain-how-the-us-china-trade-war-hurt-america/|work=[[Brookings Institution]]|date=August 7, 2020 |access-date=October 4, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=How China Won Trump's Trade War and Got Americans to Foot the Bill|url=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-11/how-china-won-trump-s-good-and-easy-to-win-trade-war|work=[[Bloomberg News]]|date=January 11, 2021 |access-date=October 4, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; sanctioned [[Huawei]] for alleged ties to Iran,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2019/05/21/huawei-why-facing-sanctions-and-who-get-hurt-most/3750738002/|title=Huawei sanctions: Who gets hurt in dispute?|work=[[USA Today]]|date=May 21, 2019|access-date=August 24, 2019|first1=Frank|last1=Bajak|first2=Michael|last2=Liedtke}}&lt;/ref&gt; significantly increased visa restrictions on Chinese students and scholars,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://time.com/5600299/donald-trump-china-trade-war-students/|title=Trump's Trade War Targets Chinese Students at Elite U.S. Schools|magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]|date=June 3, 2019|access-date=August 24, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; and classified China as a [[currency manipulator]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/06/trade-war-china-responds-to-us-after-claim-of-being-a-currency-manipulator.html|title=China responds to US after Treasury designates Beijing a 'currency manipulator'|last=Meredith|first=Sam|date=August 6, 2019|work=[[CNBC]]|access-date=August 6, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; He also juxtaposed verbal attacks on China with praise of [[Chinese Communist Party]] leader [[Xi Jinping]],&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Sink|first=Justin|date=April 11, 2018|access-date=October 5, 2021|title=Trump Praises China's Xi's Trade Speech, Easing Tariff Tensions|work=[[IndustryWeek]]|url=https://www.industryweek.com/the-economy/article/22025453/trump-praises-chinas-xis-trade-speech-easing-tariff-tensions}}&lt;/ref&gt; which was attributed to trade war negotiations.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Nakamura|first=David|author-link=David Nakamura|date=August 23, 2019|title=Amid trade war, Trump drops pretense of friendship with China's Xi Jinping, calls him an 'enemy'|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/amid-trade-war-trump-drops-pretense-of-friendship-with-chinas-xi-jinping-calls-him-an-enemy/2019/08/23/2063e80e-c5bb-11e9-b5e4-54aa56d5b7ce_story.html|access-date=October 25, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; After initially praising China for [[Chinese government response to COVID-19|its handling of COVID-19]],&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Ward|first=Myah|date=April 15, 2020|access-date=October 5, 2021|title=15 times Trump praised China as coronavirus was spreading across the globe|work=[[Politico]]|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/15/trump-china-coronavirus-188736}}&lt;/ref&gt; he began a campaign of criticism starting in March 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Jeff|last1=Mason|first2=Matt|last2=Spetalnick|first3=Alexandra|last3=Alper|date=March 18, 2020|title=Trump ratchets up criticism of China over coronavirus|work=[[Reuters]]|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-trump-china-idUSKBN2153N5|access-date=October 25, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump said he resisted punishing China for [[Human rights in China|its human rights abuses]] against ethnic minorities in the [[Xinjiang]] region for fear of jeopardizing trade negotiations.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Trump held off sanctioning Chinese over Uighurs to pursue trade deal|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53138833|work=[[BBC News]]|date=June 22, 2020|access-date=October 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; In July 2020, [[United States sanctions|his administration imposed sanctions]] and visa restrictions against senior Chinese officials, in response to expanded mass [[Xinjiang re-education camps|detention camps]] holding more than a million of the country's [[Uyghurs|Uyghur]] minority.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=U.S. Imposes Sanctions on Chinese Officials Over Mass Detention of Muslims|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/world/asia/trump-china-sanctions-uighurs.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=July 9, 2020|access-date=October 5, 2021|first1=Pranshu|last1=Verma|first2=Edward|last2=Wong|author-link2=Edward Wong}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===== North Korea ===== {{See also|North Korea–United States relations#First Trump administration (2017–2021)|2017–2018 North Korea crisis|2018–19 Korean peace process}} [[File:Kim and Trump shaking hands at the red carpet during the DPRK–USA Singapore Summit.jpg|thumb|Trump and North Korean leader [[Kim Jong Un]] at the [[Singapore summit]], June 2018|alt=Trump and Kim shake hands on a stage with U.S. and North Korean flags in the background]] In 2017, when [[North Korea's nuclear weapons]] were increasingly seen as a serious threat,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Taylor|first1=Adam|last2=Meko|first2=Tim|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/12/21/what-made-north-koreas-weapons-programs-so-much-scarier-in-2017/|title=What made North Korea's weapons programs so much scarier in 2017|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=December 21, 2017|access-date=July 5, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump escalated his rhetoric, warning that North Korean aggression would be met with &quot;fire and fury like the world has never seen&quot;.&lt;ref name=Windrem&gt;{{cite news|last1=Windrem|first1=Robert|last2=Siemaszko|first2=Corky|last3=Arkin|first3=Daniel|date=May 2, 2017|title=North Korea crisis: How events have unfolded under Trump|work=[[NBC News]]|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/north-korea-crisis-how-events-have-unfolded-under-trump-n753996|access-date=June 8, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Borger|first=Julian|author-link=Julian Borger|title=Donald Trump threatens to 'totally destroy' North Korea in UN speech|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/19/donald-trump-threatens-totally-destroy-north-korea-un-speech|access-date=June 8, 2020|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=September 19, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2017, he declared that he wanted North Korea's &quot;complete denuclearization&quot;, and engaged in [[name-calling]] with leader [[Kim Jong Un]].&lt;ref name=Windrem/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=McCausland|first=Phil|title=Kim Jong Un Calls President Trump 'Dotard' and 'Frightened Dog'|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/north-korea-s-kim-jong-un-calls-president-trump-frightened-n803631|access-date=June 8, 2020|work=[[NBC News]]|date=September 22, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; After this period of tension, he and Kim exchanged at least 27 letters in which the two men described a warm personal friendship.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://cnn.com/2020/09/09/politics/transcripts-kim-jong-un-letters-trump/|work=[[CNN]]|date=September 9, 2020|access-date=October 5, 2021|title=Transcript: Kim Jong Un's letters to President Trump}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title='A magical force': New Trump-Kim letters provide window into their 'special friendship'|date=September 9, 2020|access-date=October 5, 2021|last1=Gangel|first1=Jamie|author-link1=Jamie Gangel|last2=Herb|first2=Jeremy|work=[[CNN]]|url=https://cnn.com/2020/09/09/politics/kim-jong-un-trump-letters-rage-book/}}&lt;/ref&gt; In March 2019, he lifted some U.S. [[sanctions against North Korea]] against the advice of his Treasury Department.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/22/world/asia/north-korea-sanctions.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=March 22, 2019|access-date=September 30, 2021|title=Trump Overrules Own Experts on Sanctions, in Favor to North Korea|first=Alan|last=Rappeport|author-link=Alan Rappeport}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump, the first sitting U.S. president to meet a North Korean leader, met Kim three times: [[2018 North Korea–United States Singapore Summit|in Singapore]] in 2018, [[2019 North Korea–United States Hanoi Summit|in Hanoi]] in 2019, and [[2019 Koreas–United States DMZ Summit|in the Korean Demilitarized Zone]] in 2019.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Peter|last1=Baker|author-link1=Peter Baker (journalist)|first2=Michael|last2=Crowley|author-link2=Michael Crowley (journalist)|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/30/world/asia/trump-north-korea-dmz.html|title=Trump Steps Into North Korea and Agrees With Kim Jong-un to Resume Talks|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=June 30, 2019|access-date=October 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; However, no [[denuclearization]] agreement was reached,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/world/asia/korea-nuclear-trump-kim.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=June 12, 2020|access-date=October 5, 2021|title=Two Years After Trump-Kim Meeting, Little to Show for Personal Diplomacy|first1=David E.|last1=Sanger|author-link1=David E. Sanger|first2=Choe|last2=Sang-Hun|author-link2=Choe Sang-hun}}&lt;/ref&gt; and talks in October 2019 broke down after one day.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-us-news-ap-top-news-north-korea-vietnam-c66474b67b3e41cdad6d21ba3385ddc2|title=North Korea Says Nuclear Talks Break Down While U.S. Says They Were 'Good'|first1=Jari|last1=Tanner|first2=Matthew|last2=Lee|work=[[AP News]]|date=October 5, 2019 |access-date=July 21, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; While conducting no nuclear tests since 2017, North Korea continued to build up its arsenal of nuclear bombs and ballistic missiles.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Kim Jong Un's Nuclear Weapons Got More Dangerous Under Trump|first=Jon|last=Herskovitz|work=[[Bloomberg News]]|date=December 28, 2020|access-date=October 5, 2021|url=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-28/four-ways-kim-jong-un-got-more-dangerous-under-trump-sanctions}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-kim-north-korea-nuclear/2020/09/30/2b7305c8-032b-11eb-b7ed-141dd88560ea_story.html|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|access-date=October 5, 2021|date=September 30, 2020|title=As Kim wooed Trump with 'love letters', he kept building his nuclear capability, intelligence shows|last1=Warrick|first1=Joby|author-link1=Joby Warrick|last2=Denyer|first2=Simon|author-link2=Simon Denyer}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Middle East ==== ===== Afghanistan ===== [[File:Secretary Pompeo Meets With the Taliban Delegation (50333305012).jpg|thumb|U.S. Secretary of State [[Mike Pompeo]] meeting with Taliban delegation in [[Qatar]] in September 2020|alt=U.S. and Taliban officials stand spaced apart in a formal room]] U.S. troop numbers in Afghanistan increased from 8,500 in January 2017 to 14,000 a year later,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Jaffe|first1=Greg|last2=Ryan|first2=Missy|date=January 21, 2018|access-date=October 4, 2021|title=Up to 1,000 more U.S. troops could be headed to Afghanistan this spring|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/up-to-1000-more-us-troops-could-be-headed-to-afghanistan-this-spring/2018/01/21/153930b6-fd1b-11e7-a46b-a3614530bd87_story.html|author-link2=Missy Ryan}}&lt;/ref&gt; reversing Trump's preelection position critical of further involvement in Afghanistan.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Gordon|first1=Michael R.|author-link1=Michael R. Gordon|last2=Schmitt|first2=Eric|author-link2=Eric P. Schmitt|last3=Haberman|first3=Maggie|author-link3=Maggie Haberman|date=August 20, 2017|access-date=October 4, 2021|title=Trump Settles on Afghan Strategy Expected to Raise Troop Levels|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/20/world/asia/trump-afghanistan-strategy-mattis.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; In February 2020, his administration signed a [[United States–Taliban deal|peace agreement with the Taliban]], which called for the [[2020–2021 U.S. troop withdrawal from Afghanistan|withdrawal of foreign troops]] in 14 months &quot;contingent on a guarantee from the Taliban that Afghan soil will not be used by terrorists with aims to attack the United States or its allies&quot; and for the U.S. to seek the release of 5,000 [[Taliban]] imprisoned by the Afghan government.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=George|first1=Susannah|last2=Dadouch|first2=Sarah|last3=Lamothe|first3=Dan|date=February 29, 2020|access-date=October 4, 2021|title=U.S. signs peace deal with Taliban agreeing to full withdrawal of American troops from Afghanistan|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/afghanistan-us-taliban-peace-deal-signing/2020/02/29/b952fb04-5a67-11ea-8efd-0f904bdd8057_story.html}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Mashal|first=Mujib|date=February 29, 2020|title=Taliban and U.S. Strike Deal to Withdraw American Troops From Afghanistan|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/world/asia/us-taliban-deal.html|access-date=December 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;5,000&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Kiely|first1=Eugene|last2=Farley|first2=Robert|url=https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/|title=Timeline of U.S. Withdrawal from Afghanistan|work=[[FactCheck.org]]|date=August 17, 2021 |access-date=August 31, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; By the end of his term, 5,000 Taliban had been released, and, despite the Taliban continuing attacks on Afghan forces and integrating [[Al-Qaeda]] members into its leadership, U.S. troops had been reduced to 2,500.&lt;ref name=&quot;5,000&quot;/&gt; ===== Israel ===== Trump supported many of the policies of Israeli Prime Minister [[Benjamin Netanyahu]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Sommer|first=Allison Kaplan|date=July 25, 2019|title=How Trump and Netanyahu Became Each Other's Most Effective Political Weapon|work=[[Haaretz]]|url=https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-how-trump-and-netanyahu-became-each-other-s-most-effective-political-weapon-1.7569757|access-date=August 2, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; Under Trump, the U.S. [[United States recognition of Jerusalem as capital of Israel|recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel]]&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Nelson|first1=Louis|last2=Nussbaum|first2=Matthew|date=December 6, 2017|title=Trump says U.S. recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, despite global condemnation|work=[[Politico]]|url=https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/trump-move-embassy-jerusalem-israel-reaction-281973|access-date=December 6, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; and [[United States recognition of the Golan Heights as part of Israel|Israeli sovereignty]] over the [[Golan Heights]],&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Romo|first=Vanessa|url=https://www.npr.org/2019/03/25/706588932/trump-formally-recognizes-israeli-sovereignty-over-golan-heights?t=1617622343037|title=Trump Formally Recognizes Israeli Sovereignty Over Golan Heights|work=[[NPR]]|date=March 25, 2019 |access-date=April 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; leading to international condemnation including from the [[UN General Assembly]], [[European Union]], and [[Arab League]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Gladstone|first1=Rick|last2=Landler|first2=Mark|author-link2=Mark Landler|date=December 21, 2017|title=Defying Trump, U.N. General Assembly Condemns U.S. Decree on Jerusalem|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/21/world/middleeast/trump-jerusalem-united-nations.html|access-date=December 21, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Huet|first=Natalie|date=March 22, 2019|access-date=October 4, 2021|title=Outcry as Trump backs Israeli sovereignty over Golan Heights|work=[[Euronews]]|agency=[[Reuters]]|url=https://www.euronews.com/2019/03/22/outcry-as-trump-backs-israeli-sovereignty-over-golan-heights}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2020, the White House hosted the signing of agreements, named [[Abraham Accords]], between Israel and the [[United Arab Emirates]] and [[Bahrain]] to normalize their foreign relations.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Crowley|first=Michael|author-link=Michael Crowley (journalist)|date=September 15, 2020|title=Israel, U.A.E. and Bahrain Sign Accords, With an Eager Trump Playing Host|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/15/us/politics/trump-israel-peace-emirates-bahrain.html|access-date=February 9, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===== Saudi Arabia ===== [[File:Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, King Salman of Saudi Arabia, Melania Trump, and Donald Trump, May 2017.jpg|thumb|Trump, King [[Salman of Saudi Arabia]], and Egyptian president [[Abdel Fattah el-Sisi]] at the [[2017 Riyadh summit]] in Saudi Arabia|alt=Trump, King Salman of Saudi Arabia, and Abdel Fattah el-Sisi place their hands on a glowing white orb light at waist level]] Trump actively supported the [[Saudi Arabian–led intervention in Yemen]] against the [[Houthis]] and in 2017 signed a $110&amp;nbsp;billion agreement to sell arms to [[Saudi Arabia]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Phelps|first1=Jordyn|last2=Struyk|first2=Ryan|date=May 20, 2017|title=Trump signs $110 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia on 'a tremendous day'|work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]|url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-signs-110-billion-arms-deal-saudi-arabia/story?id=47531180|access-date=July 6, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2018, the U.S. provided limited intelligence and logistical support for the intervention.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Holland|first1=Steve|last2=Bayoumy|first2=Yara|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-saudi-idUSKBN1GW2CA|title=Trump praises U.S. military sales to Saudi as he welcomes crown prince|work=[[Reuters]]|date=March 20, 2018|access-date=June 2, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-saudi-whitehouse-idUSKBN1GX1PP/|first1=Doina|last1=Chiacu|first2=Idrees|last2=Ali|title=Trump, Saudi leader discuss Houthi 'threat' in Yemen: White House|work=[[Reuters]]|date=March 21, 2018|access-date=June 2, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Following the [[Abqaiq–Khurais attack|2019 attack on Saudi oil facilities]], which the U.S. and Saudi Arabia blamed on [[Iran]], he approved the deployment of 3,000 additional U.S. troops, including fighter squadrons, two [[MIM-104 Patriot|Patriot batteries]], and a [[Terminal High Altitude Area Defense]] system, to Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Stewart|first1=Phil|last2=Ali|first2=Idrees|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-aramco-attacks-exclusive-idUSKBN1WQ21Z/ |title=U.S. says deploying more forces to Saudi Arabia to counter Iran threat|work=[[Reuters]]|date=October 11, 2019 |access-date=October 4, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===== Syria ===== [[File:President Trump and President Erdoğan joint statement in the Roosevelt Room, May 16, 2017.jpg|thumb|Trump and Turkish president [[Recep Tayyip Erdoğan]] at the White House in May 2017]] Trump ordered [[2017 Shayrat missile strike|missile strikes in April 2017]] and [[April 2018 missile strikes against Syria|April 2018]] against the Assad regime in Syria, in retaliation for the [[Khan Shaykhun chemical attack|Khan Shaykhun]] and [[Douma chemical attack]]s, respectively.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Syria war: Trump's missile strike attracts US praise – and barbs|url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39529605|access-date=April 8, 2017|work=[[BBC News]]|date=April 7, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-strikes-syria-after-suspected-chemical-attack-by-assad-regime|first=Kathleen|last=Joyce|title=US strikes Syria after suspected chemical attack by Assad regime|date=April 14, 2018|work=[[Fox News]] |access-date=April 14, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; In December 2018, he declared &quot;we have won against ISIS&quot;, contradicting Department of Defense assessments, and ordered the withdrawal of all troops from Syria.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/19/us/politics/trump-syria-turkey-troop-withdrawal.html|title=Trump withdraws U.S. Forces From Syria, Declaring 'We Have Won Against ISIS'|first1=Mark|last1=Landler|author-link1=Mark Landler|first2=Helene|last2=Cooper|author-link2=Helene Cooper|first3=Eric|last3=Schmitt|author-link3=Eric P. Schmitt|date=December 19, 2018|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=December 31, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Borger|first1=Julian|author-link1=Julian Borger|last2=Chulov|first2=Martin|title=Trump shocks allies and advisers with plan to pull US troops out of Syria|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/19/us-troops-syria-withdrawal-trump|access-date=December 20, 2018|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=December 20, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; The next day, Mattis resigned in protest, calling Trump's decision an abandonment of the U.S.'s [[Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria|Kurdish allies]] who played a key role in fighting ISIS.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Cooper|first=Helene|author-link=Helene Cooper|title=Jim Mattis, Defense Secretary, Resigns in Rebuke of Trump's Worldview|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/20/us/politics/jim-mattis-defense-secretary-trump.html|access-date=December 21, 2018|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=December 20, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; In October 2019, after Trump spoke to Turkish president [[Recep Tayyip Erdoğan]], [[US intervention in the Syrian civil war|U.S. troops in northern Syria]] were withdrawn from the area and Turkey [[2019 Turkish offensive into north-eastern Syria|invaded northern Syria]], attacking and [[Forced displacement|displacing]] American-allied [[Kurds in Syria|Kurds]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=McKernan|first1=Bethan|last2=Borger|first2=Julian|last3=Sabbagh|first3=Dan|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/09/turkey-launches-military-operation-in-northern-syria-erdogan|title=Turkey launches military operation in northern Syria|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=October 9, 2019 |access-date=September 28, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; The U.S. House of Representatives voted 354–60 to condemn Trump's withdrawal of those U.S. troops from Syria.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/16/house-condemns-trumps-syria-pull-out-000286|title=House condemns Trump's Syria withdrawal|last=O'Brien|first=Connor|date=October 16, 2019|work=[[Politico]]|access-date=October 17, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/16/us/politics/house-vote-trump-syria.html|title=In Bipartisan Rebuke, House Majority Condemns Trump for Syria Withdrawal|last=Edmondson|first=Catie|date=October 16, 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=October 17, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===== Iran ===== In May 2018, Trump [[United States withdrawal from the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action|withdrew the U.S.]] from the [[Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action]], the 2015 agreement that lifted most economic sanctions against Iran in return for restrictions on [[Iran's nuclear program]].&lt;ref name=&quot;AP180508&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Lederman|first1=Josh|last2=Lucey|first2=Catherine|date=May 8, 2018|title=Trump declares US leaving 'horrible' Iran nuclear accord|work=[[AP News]]|url=https://apnews.com/article/cead755353a1455bbef08ef289448994/Trump-decides-to-exit-nuclear-accord-with-Iran|access-date=May 8, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/world/middleeast/trump-iran-nuclear-deal.html|title=Trump Abandons Iran Nuclear Deal He Long Scorned|first=Mark|last=Landler|author-link=Mark Landler|date=May 8, 2018|access-date=October 4, 2021|work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In August 2020, his administration unsuccessfully attempted to use a section of the nuclear deal to have the UN reimpose sanctions against Iran.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Nichols|first=Michelle|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-nuclear-un-idUSKBN2AI2Y9|title=U.S. rescinds Trump White House claim that all U.N. sanctions had been reimposed on Iran|work=[[Reuters]]|date=February 18, 2021 |access-date=December 14, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Analysts determined that, after the U.S. withdrawal, Iran moved closer to developing a nuclear weapon.&lt;ref name=&quot;close&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Hennigan|first=W.J.|title='They're Very Close.' U.S. General Says Iran Is Nearly Able to Build a Nuclear Weapon|url=https://time.com/6123380/iran-near-nuclear-weapon-capability/|magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]|date=November 24, 2021 |access-date=December 18, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Donevan |first1=Connor |last2=Dorning |first2=Courtney |last3=Kelly |first3=Mary Louise |date=May 30, 2023 |title=5 years after U.S. left Iran nuclear deal, more enriched Uranium and much less trust |url=https://www.npr.org/2023/05/30/1178919266/trump-abandoned-the-nuclear-deal-5-years-ago-could-the-u-s-stop-a-bomb-from-iran |access-date=November 3, 2024 |work=[[NPR]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; On January&amp;nbsp;1, 2020, Trump ordered [[Assassination of Qasem Soleimani|a U.S. airstrike]] that killed Iranian general [[Qasem Soleimani]], who had planned nearly every significant Iranian and [[Iranian intervention in Iraq (2014–present)|Iranian-backed]] operation over the preceding two decades.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/02/world/middleeast/qassem-soleimani-iraq-iran-attack.html|title=U.S. Strike in Iraq Kills Qassim Suleimani, Commander of Iranian Forces|last1=Crowley|first1=Michael|author-link1=Michael Crowley (journalist)|last2=Hassan|first2=Falih|last3=Schmitt|first3=Eric|author-link3=Eric P. Schmitt|date=January 2, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=January 3, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Baker|first1=Peter|author-link1=Peter Baker (journalist)|last2=Bergman|first2=Ronen|author-link2=Ronen Bergman|last3=Kirkpatrick|first3=David D.|author-link3=David D. Kirkpatrick|last4=Barnes|first4=Julian E.|last5=Rubin|first5=Alissa J.|author-link5=Alissa J. Rubin|date=January 11, 2020|title=Seven Days in January: How Trump Pushed U.S. and Iran to the Brink of War|website=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/11/us/politics/iran-trump.html |access-date=November 8, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; One week later, Iran retaliated with [[Operation Martyr Soleimani|ballistic missile strikes against two U.S. airbases]] in Iraq. Dozens of soldiers sustained traumatic brain injuries. He downplayed their injuries, and they were initially denied [[Purple Heart]] medals and the benefits accorded to their recipients.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Horton|first1=Alex|last2=Lamothe|first2=Dan|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2021/12/08/purple-heart-iran-missile-attack/|title=Army awards more Purple Hearts for troops hurt in Iranian attack that Trump downplayed|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=December 8, 2021|access-date=November 8, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;close&quot;/&gt; === Personnel === {{Main|Political appointments by Donald Trump|First cabinet of Donald Trump}} The Trump administration had a high turnover of personnel, particularly among White House staff. By the end of his first year in office, 34&amp;nbsp;percent of his original staff had resigned, been fired, or been reassigned.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-12-28/trumps-white-house-has-highest-turnover-rate-in-40-years|title=Trump White House Has Highest Turnover in 40 Years|last=Trimble|first=Megan|date=December 28, 2017|work=[[U.S. News &amp; World Report]]|access-date=March 16, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; {{As of|2018|7|pre=early}}, 61&amp;nbsp;percent of his senior aides had left&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://thehill.com/homenews/395222-ap-trump-admin-sets-record-for-white-house-turnover|title=AP: Trump admin sets record for White House turnover|work=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]]|date=July 2, 2018|access-date=July 3, 2018|last=Wise|first=Justin}}&lt;/ref&gt; and 141 staffers had left in the previous year.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-white-house-sets-turnover-records-analysis-shows-n888396|title=Trump White House sets turnover records, analysis shows|work=[[NBC News]]|date=July 2, 2018|access-date=July 3, 2018|agency=[[Associated Press]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Both figures set a record for recent presidents—more change in the first 13 months than his four immediate predecessors saw in their first two years.&lt;ref name=&quot;Keith&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.npr.org/2018/03/07/591372397/white-house-staff-turnover-was-already-record-setting-then-more-advisers-left|title=White House Staff Turnover Was Already Record-Setting. Then More Advisers Left|last=Keith|first=Tamara|work=[[NPR]]|date=March 7, 2018|access-date=March 16, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; Notable early departures included National Security Advisor [[Michael Flynn]] (after just 25 days), and Press Secretary [[Sean Spicer]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Keith&quot;/&gt; Close personal aides to Trump including Bannon, [[Hope Hicks]], [[John McEntee (political aide)|John McEntee]], and [[Keith Schiller]] quit or were forced out.&lt;ref name=Brookings&gt;{{cite news|first1=Kathryn Dunn|last1=Tenpas|first2=Elaine|last2=Kamarck|first3=Nicholas W.|last3=Zeppos|url=https://www.brookings.edu/research/tracking-turnover-in-the-trump-administration/|title=Tracking Turnover in the Trump Administration|date=March 16, 2018|website=[[Brookings Institution]]|access-date=March 16, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; Some later returned in different posts.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Rogers|first1=Katie|last2=Karni|first2=Annie|author-link2=Annie Karni|title=Home Alone at the White House: A Sour President, With TV His Constant Companion|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/us/politics/coronavirus-trump.html|access-date=May 5, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=April 23, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; He publicly disparaged several of his former top officials, calling them incompetent, stupid, or crazy.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Cillizza|first=Chris|author-link=Chris Cillizza|title=Donald Trump makes terrible hires, according to Donald Trump|url=https://cnn.com/2020/06/19/politics/trump-mulvaney-bolton-hiring/|access-date=June 24, 2020|work=[[CNN]]|date=June 19, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump had four [[White House chiefs of staff]], marginalizing or pushing out several.&lt;ref name=Keither&gt;{{cite news|last=Keith|first=Tamara|date=March 6, 2020|access-date=October 5, 2021|title=Mick Mulvaney Out, Mark Meadows in As White House Chief Of Staff|work=[[NPR]]|url=https://www.npr.org/2020/03/06/766025774/mick-mulvaney-out-as-white-house-chief-of-staff}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Reince Priebus]] was replaced after seven months by retired Marine general [[John F. Kelly]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/us/politics/reince-priebus-white-house-trump.html|title=Reince Priebus Pushed Out After Rocky Tenure as Trump Chief of Staff|first1=Peter|last1=Baker|author-link1=Peter Baker (journalist)|first2=Maggie|last2=Haberman|author-link2=Maggie Haberman|date=July 28, 2017|access-date=October 6, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Kelly resigned in December 2018 after a tumultuous tenure in which his influence waned, and Trump subsequently disparaged him.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Fritze|first1=John|last2=Subramanian|first2=Courtney|last3=Collins|first3=Michael|date=September 4, 2020|access-date=October 6, 2021|title=Trump says former chief of staff Gen. John Kelly couldn't 'handle the pressure' of the job|work=[[USA Today]]|url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/09/04/trump-gen-john-kelly-couldnt-handle-pressure-chief-staff/5720974002/}}&lt;/ref&gt; Kelly was succeeded by [[Mick Mulvaney]] as acting chief of staff; he was replaced in March 2020 by [[Mark Meadows]].&lt;ref name=Keither/&gt; On May&amp;nbsp;9, 2017, Trump [[Dismissal of James Comey|dismissed FBI director James Comey]]. While initially attributing this action to Comey's conduct in the investigation about [[Hillary Clinton email controversy#October 2016 – Additional investigation|Hillary Clinton's emails]], Trump said a few days later that he was concerned with Comey's role in the ongoing Trump-Russia investigations, and that he had intended to fire Comey earlier.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Stanek|first=Becca|date=May 11, 2017|title=President Trump just completely contradicted the official White House account of the Comey firing|work=[[The Week]]|url=https://theweek.com/speedreads/698368/president-trump-just-completely-contradicted-official-white-house-account-comey-firing|access-date=May 11, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; At a private conversation in February, he said he hoped Comey would drop the investigation into Flynn.&lt;ref name=&quot;cloud&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Schmidt|first1=Michael S.|author-link1=Michael S. Schmidt|last2=Apuzzo|first2=Matt|author-link2=Matt Apuzzo|date=June 7, 2017|title=Comey Says Trump Pressured Him to 'Lift the Cloud' of Inquiry|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/07/us/politics/james-comey-statement-testimony.html|access-date=November 2, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; In March and April, he asked Comey to &quot;lift the cloud impairing his ability to act&quot; by saying publicly that the FBI was not investigating him.&lt;ref name=&quot;cloud&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|date=June 8, 2017|title=Statement for the Record Senate Select Committee on Intelligence James B. Comey|url=https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/os-jcomey-060817.pdf|access-date=November 2, 2021|publisher=[[United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence]]|page=7}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump lost three of his 15 original cabinet members within his first year.&lt;ref name=&quot;538 Cabinet&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-incredibly-and-historically-unstable-first-year-of-trumps-cabinet/|title=The Incredibly And Historically Unstable First Year Of Trump's Cabinet|last=Jones-Rooy|first=Andrea|date=November 29, 2017|work=[[FiveThirtyEight]]|access-date=March 16, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; Health and Human Services secretary [[Tom Price (American politician)|Tom Price]] was forced to resign in September 2017 due to excessive use of private charter jets and military aircraft.&lt;ref name=&quot;538 Cabinet&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=Brookings/&gt; Environmental Protection Agency administrator [[Scott Pruitt]] resigned in 2018 and Secretary of the Interior [[Ryan Zinke]] in January 2019 amid multiple investigations into their conduct.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.npr.org/2018/07/05/594078923/scott-pruitt-out-at-epa|title=Scott Pruitt Out at EPA|work=[[NPR]]|date=July 5, 2018|access-date=July 5, 2018|first1=Rebecca|last1=Hersher|first2=Brett|last2=Neely}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Eilperin|first1=Juliet|last2=Dawsey|first2=Josh|author-link2=Josh Dawsey|last3=Fears|first3=Darryl|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/interior-secretary-zinke-resigns-amid-investigations/2018/12/15/481f9104-0077-11e9-ad40-cdfd0e0dd65a_story.html|title=Interior Secretary Zinke resigns amid investigations|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=December 15, 2018|access-date=August 7, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump was slow to appoint second-tier officials in the executive branch, saying many of the positions are unnecessary. In October 2017, there were still hundreds of sub-cabinet positions without a nominee.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.npr.org/2017/10/12/557122200/trump-leaves-top-administration-positions-unfilled-says-hollow-government-by-des|title=Trump Leaves Top Administration Positions Unfilled, Says Hollow Government By Design|last=Keith|first=Tamara|date=October 12, 2017|work=[[NPR]]|access-date=March 16, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; By January&amp;nbsp;8, 2019, of 706 key positions, 433 had been filled (61&amp;nbsp;percent) and he had no nominee for 264 (37&amp;nbsp;percent).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=January 8, 2019|access-date=October 6, 2021|title=Tracking how many key positions Trump has filled so far|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-administration-appointee-tracker/database/}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Judiciary === {{Further|List of federal judges appointed by Donald Trump|Donald Trump judicial appointment controversies}} [[File:President Trump Nominates Judge Amy Coney Barrett for Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court (50397882607).jpg|thumb|Trump and his third Supreme Court nominee, [[Amy Coney Barrett]]|alt=Donald Trump and Amy Coney Barrett walk side by side along the West Wing Colonnade; American flags hang between the columns to their right]] Trump appointed 226 [[United States federal judge|Article III judges]], including 54 to the [[United States courts of appeals|courts of appeals]] and [[Donald Trump Supreme Court candidates|three]] to the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]]: [[Neil Gorsuch]], [[Brett Kavanaugh]], and [[Amy Coney Barrett]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Gramlich|first=John|url=https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/01/13/how-trump-compares-with-other-recent-presidents-in-appointing-federal-judges/|title=How Trump compares with other recent presidents in appointing federal judges|work=[[Pew Research Center]]|date=January 13, 2021 |access-date=May 30, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; His Supreme Court nominees were noted as having politically shifted the Court to the right.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[Politico]]|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/26/trump-legacy-supreme-court-422058|title=Trump's legacy is now the Supreme Court|first=Anita|last=Kumar|date=September 26, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[Voice of America]]|title=Trump's Lasting Legacy: Conservative Supermajority on Supreme Court|first=Masood|last=Farivar|date=December 24, 2020|url=https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_trumps-lasting-legacy-conservative-supermajority-supreme-court/6199935.html|access-date=December 21, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Nine Black Robes: Inside the Supreme Court's Drive to the Right and Its Historic Consequences|first=Joan|last=Biskupic|author-link=Joan Biskupic|url=https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2023/06/02/nine-black-robes-supreme-court|date=June 2, 2023|work=[[WBUR-FM]]|access-date=December 21, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the 2016 campaign, he pledged that ''Roe v. Wade'' would be overturned &quot;automatically&quot; if he were elected and provided the opportunity to appoint two or three anti-abortion justices. He later took credit when ''Roe'' was overturned in ''[[Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization]]''; all three of his Supreme Court nominees voted with the majority.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|magazine=[[The Week]]|title=Trump takes credit for Dobbs decision but worries it 'won't help him in the future'|first=Grayson|last=Quay|date=June 25, 2022 |url=https://theweek.com/donald-trump/1014657/trump-takes-credit-for-dobbs-decision-but-worries-it-wont-help-him-in-the |access-date=October 2, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[The New York Times]]|title=In 6-to-3 Ruling, Supreme Court Ends Nearly 50 Years of Abortion Rights|first=Adam|last=Liptak|author-link=Adam Liptak|date=June 24, 2022|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/24/us/roe-wade-overturned-supreme-court.html|access-date=December 21, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[NBC News]]|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-was-able-kill-roe-v-wade-rcna84897|first=Sahil|last=Kapur|title=Trump: 'I was able to kill Roe v. Wade'|date=May 17, 2023|access-date=December 21, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump disparaged courts and judges he disagreed with, often in personal terms, and questioned the judiciary's constitutional authority. His attacks on the courts drew rebukes from observers, including sitting federal judges, concerned about the effect of his statements on the [[judicial independence]] and public confidence in the judiciary.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Abby|last1=Phillip|first2=Robert|last2=Barnes|first3=Ed|last3=O'Keefe|title=Supreme Court nominee Gorsuch says Trump's attacks on judiciary are 'demoralizing'|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/supreme-court-nominee-gorsuch-says-trumps-attacks-on-judiciary-are-demoralizing/2017/02/08/64e03fe2-ee3f-11e6-9662-6eedf1627882_story.html|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=February 8, 2017|access-date=October 6, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite report|title=In His Own Words: The President's Attacks on the Courts|url=https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/his-own-words-presidents-attacks-courts|work=[[Brennan Center for Justice]]|date=June 5, 2017|access-date=October 6, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Katie|last=Shepherd|title=Trump 'violates all recognized democratic norms,' federal judge says in biting speech on judicial independence|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/11/08/judge-says-trump-violates-democratic-norms-judiciary-speech/|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=November 8, 2019|access-date=October 6, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; === COVID-19 pandemic === {{Main|COVID-19 pandemic in the United States}} {{Further|U.S. federal government response to the COVID-19 pandemic|Communication of the Trump administration during the COVID-19 pandemic}} {{See also|Economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States}} ==== Initial response ==== The first confirmed case of [[COVID-19]] in the U.S. was reported on January&amp;nbsp;20, 2020.{{sfn|Holshue|DeBolt|Lindquist|Lofy|2020}} The outbreak was officially declared a public health emergency by [[United States Secretary of Health and Human Services|Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary]] [[Alex Azar]] on January&amp;nbsp;31, 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Hein|first=Alexandria|date=January 31, 2020|title=Coronavirus declared public health emergency in US|url=https://www.foxnews.com/health/coronavirus-declared-public-health-emergency-in-us|access-date=October 2, 2020|work=[[Fox News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump initially ignored persistent public health warnings and calls for action from health officials within his administration and Secretary Azar.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-04-19/coronavirus-outbreak-president-trump-slow-response|title=How Trump let the U.S. fall behind the curve on coronavirus threat|work=[[Los Angeles Times]]|date=April 19, 2020|access-date=April 21, 2020|first1=David S.|last1=Cloud|first2=Paul|last2=Pringle|author-link2=Paul Pringle|first3=Eli|last3=Stokols|author-link3=Eli Stokols}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT 4 11 20&quot;&gt;{{cite news|first1=Eric|last1=Lipton|author-link1=Eric Lipton|first2=David E.|last2=Sanger|author-link2=David E. Sanger|first3=Maggie|last3=Haberman|author-link3=Maggie Haberman|first4=Michael D.|last4=Shear|author-link4=Michael D. Shear|first5=Mark|last5=Mazzetti|author-link5=Mark Mazzetti|first6=Julian E.|last6=Barnes|title=He Could Have Seen What Was Coming: Behind Trump's Failure on the Virus|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-response.html|access-date=April 11, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=April 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Throughout January and February he focused on economic and political considerations of the outbreak.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Kelly|first=Caroline|date=March 21, 2020|title=Washington Post: US intelligence warned Trump in January and February as he dismissed coronavirus threat|work=[[CNN]]|url=https://cnn.com/2020/03/20/politics/us-intelligence-reports-trump-coronavirus/|access-date=April 21, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; In February 2020 he publicly asserted that the outbreak in the U.S. was less deadly than [[influenza]], was &quot;very much under control&quot;, and would soon be over.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/timeline-president-donald-trump-changing-statements-on-coronavirus/|title=A timeline of what Trump has said on coronavirus|last=Watson|first=Kathryn|date=April 3, 2020|work=[[CBS News]]|access-date=January 27, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; On March&amp;nbsp;19, 2020, he privately told [[Bob Woodward]] that he was deliberately &quot;playing it down, because I don't want to create a panic&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|date=September 10, 2020|title=Trump deliberately played down virus, Woodward book says|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54094559|access-date=September 18, 2020|work=[[BBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Gangel|first1=Jamie|author-link1=Jamie Gangel|last2=Herb|first2=Jeremy|last3=Stuart|first3=Elizabeth|date=September 9, 2020|title='Play it down': Trump admits to concealing the true threat of coronavirus in new Woodward book|url=https://cnn.com/2020/09/09/politics/bob-woodward-rage-book-trump-coronavirus|access-date=September 14, 2022|work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; By mid-March, most global financial markets had [[2020 stock market crash|severely contracted]] in response to the pandemic.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Partington|first1=Richard|last2=Wearden|first2=Graeme|url=https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/mar/09/global-stock-markets-post-biggest-falls-since-2008-financial-crisis|title=Global stock markets post biggest falls since 2008 financial crisis|date=March 9, 2020|work=[[The Guardian]]|access-date=March 15, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; On March&amp;nbsp;6, Trump signed the [[Coronavirus Preparedness and Response Supplemental Appropriations Act]], which provided $8.3&amp;nbsp;billion in emergency funding for federal agencies.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Trump signs emergency coronavirus package, injecting $8.3 billion into efforts to fight the outbreak|url=https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/trump-signs-billion-emergency-funding-package-fight-coronavirus-legislation-covid19-020-3-1028972206|work=[[Business Insider]]|first=Gina|last=Heeb|date=March 6, 2020|access-date=October 6, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; On March&amp;nbsp;11, the [[World Health Organization]] (WHO) recognized COVID-19 as a [[pandemic]],&lt;ref name=&quot;WHOpandemic2&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.who.int/dg/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing-on-covid-19---11-march-2020|title=WHO Director-General's opening remarks at the media briefing on COVID-19 – 11 March 2020|date=March 11, 2020|work=[[World Health Organization]]|access-date=March 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; and he announced partial travel restrictions for most of Europe, effective March&amp;nbsp;13.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Coronavirus: What you need to know about Trump's Europe travel ban|url=https://www.thelocal.dk/20200312/trump-imposes-travel-ban-from-europe-over-coronavirus-outbreak|work=[[The Local]]|date=March 12, 2020|access-date=October 6, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; That same day, he gave his first serious assessment of the virus in a nationwide Oval Office address, calling the outbreak &quot;horrible&quot; but &quot;a temporary moment&quot; and saying there was no financial crisis.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-address.html|title=In Rare Oval Office Speech, Trump Voices New Concerns and Old Themes|last1=Karni|first1=Annie|author-link1=Annie Karni|last2=Haberman|first2=Maggie|author-link2=Maggie Haberman|date=March 12, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=March 18, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; On March&amp;nbsp;13, he declared a [[national emergency]], freeing up federal resources.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://cnn.com/2020/03/13/politics/donald-trump-emergency/|title=Trump declares national emergency – and denies responsibility for coronavirus testing failures|last=Liptak|first=Kevin|date=March 13, 2020|work=[[CNN]]|access-date=March 18, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; He claimed that &quot;anybody that wants a test can get a test&quot;, despite test availability being severely limited.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://khn.org/news/donald-trumps-wrong-claim-that-anybody-can-get-tested-for-coronavirus/|title=Donald Trump's Wrong Claim That 'Anybody' Can Get Tested For Coronavirus|last=Valverde|first=Miriam|date=March 12, 2020|work=[[Kaiser Health News]]|access-date=March 18, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; On April&amp;nbsp;22, Trump signed an executive order restricting some forms of immigration.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Trump's immigration executive order: What you need to know|url=https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/trump-immigration-executive-order-200423185402661.html|work=[[Al Jazeera English|Al Jazeera]]|date=April 23, 2020|access-date=October 6, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; In late spring and early summer, with infections and deaths continuing to rise, he adopted a strategy of blaming the states rather than accepting that his initial assessments of the pandemic were overly optimistic or his failure to provide presidential leadership.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Michael D.|last1=Shear|author-link1=Michael D. Shear|first2=Noah|last2=Weiland|first3=Eric|last3=Lipton|author-link3=Eric Lipton|first4=Maggie|last4=Haberman|author-link4=Maggie Haberman|first5=David E.|last5=Sanger|author-link5=David E. Sanger|title=Inside Trump's Failure: The Rush to Abandon Leadership Role on the Virus|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-response-failure-leadership.html|access-date=July 19, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=July 18, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== White House Coronavirus Task Force ==== [[File:White House Press Briefing (49666120807).jpg|thumb|right|Trump conducts a COVID-19 press briefing with members of the [[White House Coronavirus Task Force]] on March&amp;nbsp;15, 2020.|alt=Trump speaks in the West Wing briefing room with various officials standing behind him, all in formal attire and without face masks]] Trump established the [[White House Coronavirus Task Force]] on January&amp;nbsp;29, 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-outbreak-task-force-created-by-trump-to-lead-us-government-response-to-wuhan-virus/|title=Trump creates task force to lead U.S. coronavirus response|work=[[CBS News]]|date=January 30, 2020|access-date=October 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Beginning in mid-March, he held a daily task force press conference, joined by medical experts and other administration officials,&lt;ref name=Karni&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-briefing.html|title=In Daily Coronavirus Briefing, Trump Tries to Redefine Himself|last=Karni|first=Annie|author-link=Annie Karni|date=March 23, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=April 8, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; sometimes disagreeing with them by promoting unproven treatments.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-malaria-drug.html|title=Trump's Aggressive Advocacy of Malaria Drug for Treating Coronavirus Divides Medical Community|first1=Peter|last1=Baker|author-link1=Peter Baker (journalist)|first2=Katie|last2=Rogers|first3=David|last3=Enrich|author-link3=David Enrich|first4=Maggie|last4=Haberman|author-link4=Maggie Haberman|date=April 6, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=April 8, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; He was the main speaker at the briefings, where he praised his own response to the pandemic, frequently criticized rival presidential candidate Joe Biden, and denounced the press.&lt;ref name=Karni/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://time.com/5812588/donald-trump-coronavirus-briefings-message-campaign/|title='He's Walking the Tightrope.' How Donald Trump Is Getting Out His Message on Coronavirus|last=Berenson|first=Tessa|date=March 30, 2020|magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]|access-date=April 8, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; On March&amp;nbsp;16, he acknowledged for the first time that the pandemic was not under control and that months of disruption to daily lives and a recession might occur.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Dale|first=Daniel|author-link=Daniel Dale|title=Fact check: Trump tries to erase the memory of him downplaying the coronavirus|url=https://cnn.com/2020/03/17/politics/fact-check-trump-always-knew-pandemic-coronavirus/|access-date=March 19, 2020|work=[[CNN]]|date=March 17, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; His repeated use of &quot;Chinese virus&quot; and &quot;China virus&quot; to describe COVID-19 drew criticism from health experts.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.vox.com/2020/3/18/21185478/coronavirus-usa-trump-chinese-virus|title=Trump's new fixation on using a racist name for the coronavirus is dangerous|last=Scott|first=Dylan|access-date=March 19, 2020|date=March 18, 2020|work=[[Vox (website)|Vox]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.newsweek.com/who-langauge-stigmatizing-coronavirus-trump-chinese-1493172|title=WHO expert condemns language stigmatizing coronavirus after Trump repeatedly calls it the 'Chinese virus'|date=March 19, 2020|access-date=March 19, 2020|last=Georgiou|first=Aristos|work=[[Newsweek]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/488311-us-china-relationship-worsens-over-coronavirus|title=US-China relationship worsens over coronavirus|last=Beavers|first=Olivia|work=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]]|date=March 19, 2020|access-date=March 19, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; By early April, as the pandemic worsened and amid criticism of his administration's response, Trump refused to admit any mistakes in his handling of the outbreak, instead blaming the media, Democratic state governors, the previous administration, China, and the WHO.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Lemire|first=Jonathan|title=As pandemic deepens, Trump cycles through targets to blame|url=https://apnews.com/article/58f1b869354970689d55ccae37c540f3|access-date=May 5, 2020|work=[[AP News]]|date=April 9, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; The daily coronavirus task force briefings ended in late April, after a briefing at which he suggested the dangerous idea of injecting a disinfectant to treat COVID-19;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Coronavirus: Outcry after Trump suggests injecting disinfectant as treatment|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52407177|access-date=August 11, 2020|work=[[BBC News]]|date=April 24, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; the comment was widely condemned by medical professionals.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Aratani|first=Lauren|title=Why is the White House winding down the coronavirus taskforce?|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/05/white-house-coronavirus-taskforce-winding-down-why|access-date=June 8, 2020|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=May 5, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Coronavirus: Trump says virus task force to focus on reopening economy|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52563577|access-date=June 8, 2020|work=[[BBC News]]|date=May 6, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; In early May, Trump proposed the phase-out of the coronavirus task force and its replacement with another group centered on reopening the economy. Amid a backlash, he said the task force would &quot;indefinitely&quot; continue.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Liptak|first=Kevin|title=In reversal, Trump says task force will continue 'indefinitely' – eyes vaccine czar|url=https://cnn.com/2020/05/06/politics/trump-task-force-vaccine/|access-date=June 8, 2020|work=[[CNN]]|date=May 6, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; By the end of May, the coronavirus task force's meetings were sharply reduced.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Acosta|first1=Jim|author-link1=Jim Acosta|last2=Liptak|first2=Kevin|last3=Westwood|first3=Sarah|title=As US deaths top 100,000, Trump's coronavirus task force is curtailed|url=https://cnn.com/2020/05/28/politics/donald-trump-coronavirus-task-force/|access-date=June 8, 2020|work=[[CNN]]|date=May 29, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== World Health Organization ==== Prior to the pandemic, Trump criticized the WHO and other international bodies, which he asserted were taking advantage of U.S. aid.&lt;ref name=&quot;Politico_WHO&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Ollstein|first=Alice Miranda|title=Trump halts funding to World Health Organization|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/14/trump-world-health-organization-funding-186786|access-date=September 7, 2020|work=[[Politico]]|date=April 14, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; His administration's proposed 2021 federal budget, released in February, proposed reducing WHO funding by more than half.&lt;ref name=&quot;Politico_WHO&quot;/&gt; In May and April, he accused the WHO of &quot;severely mismanaging&quot; COVID-19, alleged without evidence that the organization was under Chinese control and had enabled the Chinese government's concealment of the pandemic's origins,&lt;ref name=&quot;Politico_WHO&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;CNN_WHO&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Cohen|first1=Zachary|last2=Hansler|first2=Jennifer|last3=Atwood|first3=Kylie|last4=Salama|first4=Vivian|last5=Murray|first5=Sara|author-link5=Sara Murray (journalist)|title=Trump administration begins formal withdrawal from World Health Organization|url=https://cnn.com/2020/07/07/politics/us-withdrawing-world-health-organization/|access-date=July 19, 2020|work=[[CNN]]|date=July 7, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;BBC_WHO&quot;&gt;{{cite news|title=Coronavirus: Trump moves to pull US out of World Health Organization|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53327906|access-date=August 11, 2020|work=[[BBC News]]|date=July 7, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; and announced that he was withdrawing funding for the organization.&lt;ref name=&quot;Politico_WHO&quot;/&gt; These were seen as attempts to distract from his own mishandling of the pandemic.&lt;ref name=&quot;Politico_WHO&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Wood|first=Graeme|author-link=Graeme Wood (journalist)|title=The WHO Defunding Move Isn't What It Seems|url=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/trump-threatens-defund-world-health-organization/610030/|access-date=September 7, 2020|work=[[The Atlantic]]|date=April 15, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Phillips|first=Amber|title=Why exactly is Trump lashing out at the World Health Organization?|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/08/why-exactly-is-president-trump-lashing-out-world-health-organization/|access-date=September 8, 2020|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=April 8, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; In July 2020, he announced the formal withdrawal of the U.S. from the WHO, effective July 2021.&lt;ref name=&quot;CNN_WHO&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;BBC_WHO&quot;/&gt; The decision was widely condemned by health and government officials as &quot;short-sighted&quot;, &quot;senseless&quot;, and &quot;dangerous&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;CNN_WHO&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;BBC_WHO&quot;/&gt; ==== Pressure to abandon pandemic mitigation measures ==== {{Further|COVID-19 testing in the United States}} In April 2020, Republican-connected groups organized [[Protests in the United States over responses to the COVID-19 pandemic|anti-lockdown protests]] against the measures state governments were taking to combat the pandemic;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Wilson|first=Jason|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/far-right-coronavirus-protests-restrictions|title=The rightwing groups behind wave of protests against Covid-19 restrictions|date=April 17, 2020|work=[[The Guardian]]|access-date=April 18, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Andone|first=Dakin|url=https://cnn.com/2020/04/16/us/protests-coronavirus-stay-home-orders/|title=Protests Are Popping Up Across the US over Stay-at-Home Restrictions|date=April 16, 2020|access-date=October 7, 2021|work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump encouraged the protests on Twitter,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Shear|first1=Michael D.|author-link1=Michael D. Shear|last2=Mervosh|first2=Sarah|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-governors.html|title=Trump Encourages Protest Against Governors Who Have Imposed Virus Restrictions|date=April 17, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=April 19, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; although the targeted states did not meet the Trump administration's guidelines for reopening.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/493701-trump-support-for-protests-threatens-to-undermine-social-distancing|title=Trump support for protests threatens to undermine social distancing rules|last1=Chalfant|first1=Morgan|last2=Samuels|first2=Brett|date=April 20, 2020|work=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]]|access-date=July 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; In April 2020, he first supported, then later criticized, [[Georgia (U.S. state)|Georgia]] Governor [[Brian Kemp]]'s plan to reopen some nonessential businesses.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Trump approved of Georgia's plan to reopen before bashing it|url=https://apnews.com/article/a031d395d414ffa655fdc65e6760d6a0|work=[[AP News]]|access-date=April 28, 2020|date=April 24, 2020|first1=Jonathan|last1=Lemire|first2=Ben|last2=Nadler}}&lt;/ref&gt; Throughout the spring he increasingly pushed for ending the restrictions to reverse the damage to the country's economy.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/18/trump-reopening-economy-193885|title=Trump's unspoken factor on reopening the economy: Politics|last=Kumar|first=Anita|date=April 18, 2020|work=[[Politico]]|access-date=July 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump often refused to [[Face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic|mask]] at public events, contrary to his administration's April 2020 guidance to wear masks in public&lt;ref name=99days&gt;{{cite news|last=Danner|first=Chas|title=99 Days Later, Trump Finally Wears a Face Mask in Public|url=https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/trump-finally-wears-a-face-mask-in-public-covid-19.html|access-date=July 12, 2020|work=[[New York (magazine)|New York]]|date=July 11, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; and despite nearly unanimous medical consensus that masks are important to preventing spread of the virus.&lt;ref name=&quot;WAPost_Mask&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/25/trumps-dumbfounding-refusal-encourage-wearing-masks/|title=Trump's dumbfounding refusal to encourage wearing masks|last=Blake|first=Aaron|date=June 25, 2020|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|access-date=July 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; By June, Trump had said masks were a &quot;double-edged sword&quot;; ridiculed Biden for wearing masks; continually emphasized that mask-wearing was optional; and suggested that wearing a mask was a political statement against him personally.&lt;ref name=&quot;WAPost_Mask&quot;/&gt; Trump's contradiction of medical recommendations weakened national efforts to mitigate the pandemic.&lt;ref name=99days/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;WAPost_Mask&quot;/&gt; In June and July, Trump said several times that the U.S. would have fewer cases of coronavirus if it did less testing, that having a large number of reported cases &quot;makes us look bad&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/trump-says-us-would-have-half-the-number-of-coronavirus-cases-if-it-did-half-the-testing.html|title=Trump says U.S. would have half the number of coronavirus cases if it did half the testing|last=Higgins-Dunn|first=Noah|date=July 14, 2020|work=[[CNBC]]|access-date=August 26, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/07/23/trumps-right-that-with-less-testing-we-record-fewer-cases-fact-thats-already-happening/|title=Trump is right that with lower testing, we record fewer cases. That's already happening.|last=Bump|first=Philip|date=July 23, 2020|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|access-date=August 26, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; The CDC guideline at the time was that any person exposed to the virus should be &quot;quickly identified and tested&quot; even if they are not showing symptoms, because asymptomatic people can still spread the virus.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/26/cdc-quietly-revises-coronavirus-guidance-to-downplay-importance-of-testing-for-asymptomatic-people.html|title=CDC quietly revises coronavirus guidance to downplay importance of testing for asymptomatic people|last=Feuer|first=Will|date=August 26, 2020|work=[[CNBC]]|access-date=August 26, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/25/world/covid-19-coronavirus.html|title=The C.D.C. changes testing guidelines to exclude those exposed to virus who don't exhibit symptoms.|date=August 26, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=August 26, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; In August 2020 the CDC quietly lowered its recommendation for testing, advising that people who have been exposed to the virus, but are not showing symptoms, &quot;do not necessarily need a test&quot;. The change in guidelines was made by HHS political appointees under Trump administration pressure, against the wishes of CDC scientists.&lt;ref name=&quot;CNN-testing-pressure&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://cnn.com/2020/08/26/politics/cdc-coronavirus-testing-guidance/|title=CDC was pressured 'from the top down' to change coronavirus testing guidance, official says|date=August 26, 2020|work=[[CNN]]|first1=Nick|last1=Valencia|first2=Sara|last2=Murray|author-link2=Sara Murray (journalist)|first3=Kristen|last3=Holmes|access-date=August 26, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=Gumbrecht&gt;{{cite news|url=https://cnn.com/2020/09/18/health/covid-19-testing-guidance-cdc-hhs/|title=Controversial coronavirus testing guidance came from HHS and didn't go through CDC scientific review, sources say|date=September 18, 2020|work=[[CNN]]|first1=Jamie|last1=Gumbrecht|first2=Sanjay|last2=Gupta|author-link2=Sanjay Gupta|first3=Nick|last3=Valencia|access-date=September 18, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; The day after this [[Trump administration political interference with science agencies|political interference]] was reported, the testing guideline was changed back to its original recommendation.&lt;ref name=Gumbrecht/&gt; Despite record numbers of COVID-19 cases in the U.S. from mid-June onward and an increasing percentage of positive test results, Trump largely continued to downplay the pandemic, including his false claim in early July 2020 that 99&amp;nbsp;percent of COVID-19 cases are &quot;totally harmless&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Blake|first=Aaron|title=President Trump, coronavirus truther|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/07/06/trump-throws-caution-wind-coronavirus/|access-date=July 11, 2020|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=July 6, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/05/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-factcheck.html|title=Trump Falsely Claims '99 Percent' of Virus Cases Are 'Totally Harmless'|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=July 5, 2020|access-date=October 7, 2021|first1=Roni Caryn|last1=Rabin|first2=Chris|last2=Cameron}}&lt;/ref&gt; He began insisting that all states should resume in-person education in the fall despite a July spike in reported cases.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.npr.org/2020/07/07/888157257/white-house-pushes-to-reopen-schools-despite-a-surge-in-coronavirus-cases|title=Trump Pledges To 'Pressure' Governors To Reopen Schools Despite Health Concerns|last=Sprunt|first=Barbara|date=July 7, 2020|work=[[NPR]]|access-date=July 10, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Political pressure on health agencies ==== {{Main|Political interference with science agencies by the first Trump administration}} Trump repeatedly pressured federal health agencies to take actions he favored,&lt;ref name=&quot;CNN-testing-pressure&quot;/&gt; such as approving unproven treatments&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/06/15/hydroxychloroquine-authorization-revoked-coronavirus/|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 15, 2020|access-date=October 7, 2021|title=FDA pulls emergency approval for antimalarial drugs touted by Trump as covid-19 treatment|first1=Laurie|last1=McGinley|first2=Carolyn Y.|last2=Johnson}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=pressed&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/12/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-treatment-vaccine.html|title=Trump Pressed for Plasma Therapy. Officials Worry, Is an Unvetted Vaccine Next?|date=September 12, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]|first1=Sharon|last1=LaFraniere|author-link1=Sharon LaFraniere|first2=Noah|last2=Weiland|first3=Michael D.|last3=Shear|author-link3=Michael D. Shear|access-date=September 13, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; or speeding up vaccine approvals.&lt;ref name=pressed/&gt; Trump administration political appointees at HHS sought to control CDC communications to the public that undermined Trump's claims that the pandemic was under control. CDC resisted many of the changes, but increasingly allowed HHS personnel to review articles and suggest changes before publication.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/11/exclusive-trump-officials-interfered-with-cdc-reports-on-covid-19-412809|title=Trump officials interfered with CDC reports on Covid-19|last=Diamond|first=Dan|date=September 11, 2020|work=[[Politico]]|access-date=September 14, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/09/12/trump-control-over-cdc-reports/|title=Trump officials seek greater control over CDC reports on coronavirus|last=Sun|first=Lena H.|date=September 12, 2020|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|access-date=September 14, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump alleged without evidence that FDA scientists were part of a &quot;[[deep state]]&quot; opposing him and delaying approval of vaccines and treatments to hurt him politically.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Laurie|last1=McGinley|first2=Carolyn Y.|last2=Johnson|first3=Josh|last3=Dawsey|author-link3=Josh Dawsey|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/08/22/trump-without-evidence-accuses-deep-state-fda-slow-walking-coronavirus-vaccines-treatments/|title=Trump without evidence accuses 'deep state' at FDA of slow-walking coronavirus vaccines and treatments|date=August 22, 2020|access-date=October 7, 2021|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Outbreak at the White House ==== {{Main|White House COVID-19 outbreak}} [[File:President Trump Boards Marine One (50436803733).jpg|thumb|upright=1.05|Trump boards [[Marine One]] for COVID-19 treatment on October&amp;nbsp;2, 2020|alt=Donald Trump, wearing a black face mask, boards Marine One, a large green helicopter, from the White House lawn]] On October&amp;nbsp;2, 2020, Trump tweeted that he had tested positive for [[COVID-19]], part of a White House outbreak.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Liptak|first1=Kevin|last2=Klein|first2=Betsy|date=October 5, 2020|title=A timeline of Trump and those in his orbit during a week of coronavirus developments|url=https://cnn.com/2020/10/02/politics/timeline-trump-coronavirus/|access-date=October 3, 2020|work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Later that day [[Donald Trump's COVID-19 infection|Trump was hospitalized]] at [[Walter Reed National Military Medical Center]], reportedly due to fever and labored breathing. He was treated with antiviral and experimental antibody drugs and a steroid. He returned to the White House on October&amp;nbsp;5, still infectious and unwell.&lt;ref name=&quot;downplay&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Olorunnipa|first1=Toluse|author-link1=Toluse Olorunnipa|last2=Dawsey|first2=Josh|author-link2=Josh Dawsey|title=Trump returns to White House, downplaying virus that hospitalized him and turned West Wing into a 'ghost town'|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-walter-reed-discharge-mask/2020/10/05/91edbe9a-071a-11eb-859b-f9c27abe638d_story.html|access-date=October 5, 2020|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=October 5, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;sicker&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Weiland|first1=Noah|last2=Haberman|first2=Maggie|author-link2=Maggie Haberman|last3=Mazzetti|first3=Mark|author-link3=Mark Mazzetti|last4=Karni|first4=Annie|author-link4=Annie Karni|date=February 11, 2021|title=Trump Was Sicker Than Acknowledged With Covid-19|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/11/us/politics/trump-coronavirus.html |access-date=February 16, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; During and after his treatment he continued to downplay the virus.&lt;ref name=&quot;downplay&quot;/&gt; In 2021, it was revealed that his condition had been far more serious; he had dangerously low blood oxygen levels, a high fever, and lung infiltrates, indicating a severe case.&lt;ref name=&quot;sicker&quot;/&gt; In January 2021, he received a COVID-19 vaccination.&lt;ref name=&quot;D&amp;MT_1&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=Acosta |first1=J. |last2=Kelly |first2=C. |title= Donald and Melania Trump received Covid vaccine at the White House in January |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/01/politics/trump-melania-vaccinated-white-house/index.html |publisher=[[CNN]] |date=March 1, 2021 |access-date=November 8, 2024 |quote=Former President Donald Trump and former first lady Melania Trump received the Covid-19 vaccine at the White House in January.}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Effects on the 2020 presidential campaign ==== By July 2020, Trump's handling of the COVID-19 pandemic had become a major issue in the presidential election.&lt;ref name=&quot;Election_NBCNews&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/warning-signs-flash-trump-wisconsin-pandemic-response-fuels-disapproval-n1232646|title=Warning signs flash for Trump in Wisconsin as pandemic response fuels disapproval|date=July 5, 2020|work=[[NBC News]]|first=Adam|last=Edelman|access-date=September 14, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Biden sought to make the pandemic the central issue.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Strauss|first=Daniel|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/14/joe-biden-donald-trump-coronavirus-covid-19|title=Biden aims to make election about Covid-19 as Trump steers focus elsewhere|date=September 7, 2020|work=[[The Guardian]]|access-date=November 4, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Polls suggested voters blamed Trump for his pandemic response&lt;ref name=&quot;Election_NBCNews&quot;/&gt; and disbelieved his rhetoric concerning the virus, with an [[Ipsos]]/[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]] poll indicating 65&amp;nbsp;percent of respondents disapproved of his pandemic response.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/deep-skepticism-trumps-coronavirus-response-endures-poll/story?id=72974847|title=Deep skepticism for Trump's coronavirus response endures: POLL|date=September 13, 2020|work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]|first=Kendall|last=Karson|access-date=September 14, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the final months of the campaign, Trump repeatedly said that the U.S. was &quot;rounding the turn&quot; in managing the pandemic, despite increasing cases and deaths.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-us-rounding-turn-covid-trump-claims-1542145|title=Fact Check: Is U.S. 'Rounding the Turn' On COVID, as Trump Claims?|date=October 26, 2020|work=[[Newsweek]]|first=Matthew|last=Impelli|access-date=October 31, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; A few days before the November&amp;nbsp;3 election, the U.S. reported more than 100,000 cases in a single day for the first time.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-record/u-s-reports-world-record-of-more-than-100000-covid-19-cases-in-single-day-idUSKBN27G07S|title=U.S. reports world record of more than 100,000 COVID-19 cases in single day|date=October 31, 2020|work=[[Reuters]]|first=Anurag|last=Maan|access-date=October 31, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Investigations === After he assumed office, Trump was the subject of increasing Justice Department and congressional scrutiny, with investigations covering his election campaign, transition, and inauguration, actions taken during his presidency, his [[The Trump Organization|private businesses]], personal taxes, and [[Donald J. Trump Foundation|charitable foundation]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Woodward|first1=Calvin|last2=Pace|first2=Julie|title=Scope of investigations into Trump has shaped his presidency|url=https://apnews.com/article/6d6361fdf19846cb9eb020d9c6fbfa5a|access-date=December 19, 2018|work=[[AP News]]|date=December 16, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; There were ten federal criminal investigations, eight state and local investigations, and twelve congressional investigations.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Buchanan|first1=Larry|last2=Yourish|first2=Karen|title=Tracking 30 Investigations Related to Trump|url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/05/13/us/politics/trump-investigations.html|access-date=October 4, 2020|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=September 25, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Financial ==== In April 2019, the [[House Oversight Committee]] issued [[subpoena]]s seeking financial details from Trump's banks, Deutsche Bank and [[Capital One]], and his accounting firm, [[Mazars USA]]. Trump sued the banks, Mazars, and committee chair [[Elijah Cummings]] to prevent the disclosures.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|date=April 22, 2019|last1=Fahrenthold|first1=David A.|author-link1=David Fahrenthold|last2=Bade|first2=Rachael|last3=Wagner|first3=John|title=Trump sues in bid to block congressional subpoena of financial records|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-sues-in-bid-to-block-congressional-subpoena-of-financial-records/2019/04/22/a98de3d0-6500-11e9-82ba-fcfeff232e8f_story.html|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|access-date=May 1, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; In May, [[United States District Court for the District of Columbia|DC District Court]] judge [[Amit Mehta]] ruled that Mazars must comply with the subpoena,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/20/us/politics/trump-financial-records.html|title=Accountants Must Turn Over Trump's Financial Records, Lower-Court Judge Rules|first=Charlie|last=Savage|author-link=Charlie Savage (author)|date=May 20, 2019|access-date=September 30, 2021|work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and judge [[Edgardo Ramos]] of the [[United States District Court for the Southern District of New York|Southern District Court of New York]] ruled that the banks must also comply.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/judge-rejects-trumps-request-to-halt-congressional-subpoenas-for-his-banking-records/2019/05/22/28f9b93a-7ccd-11e9-8bb7-0fc796cf2ec0_story.html|title=Judge rejects Trump's request to halt congressional subpoenas for his banking records|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=May 22, 2019|access-date=September 30, 2021|first1=Renae|last1=Merle|first2=Michael|last2=Kranish|author-link2=Michael Kranish|first3=Felicia|last3=Sonmez|author-link3=Felicia Sonmez}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/22/business/deutsche-bank-trump-subpoena.html|title=Trump's Financial Secrets Move Closer to Disclosure|first1=Emily|last1=Flitter|first2=Jesse|last2=McKinley|first3=David|last3=Enrich|author-link3=David Enrich|first4=Nicholas|last4=Fandos|author-link4=Nicholas Fandos|date=May 22, 2019|access-date=September 30, 2021|work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump's attorneys appealed.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.newsweek.com/trump-subpoena-appeal-merrick-garland-court-1431543|title=Donald Trump's Subpoena Appeals Now Head to Merrick Garland's Court|date=May 21, 2019|access-date=August 24, 2021|work=[[Newsweek]]|first=Alexandra|last=Hutzler}}&lt;/ref&gt; In September 2022, the committee and Trump agreed to a settlement about Mazars, and the accounting firm began turning over documents.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Broadwater|first=Luke|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/17/us/politics/mazars-accounting-trump-documents.html|title=Trump's Former Accounting Firm Begins Turning Over Documents to Congress|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=September 17, 2022 |access-date=January 28, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Russian election interference ==== {{Main|Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections|Timelines related to Donald Trump and Russian interference in United States elections}} {{See also|Senate Intelligence Committee report on Russian interference in the 2016 United States presidential election|Steele dossier}} In January 2017, American intelligence agencies—the [[CIA]], the [[FBI]], and the [[NSA]], represented by the [[Director of National Intelligence]]—jointly stated with &quot;[[Analytic confidence#Levels of analytic confidence in national security reports|high confidence]]&quot; that the Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election to favor the election of Trump.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/06/us/politics/trump-russia-intelligence-agencies-cia-fbi-nsa.html|title=Trump Misleads on Russian Meddling: Why 17 Intelligence Agencies Don't Need to Agree|last=Rosenberg|first=Matthew|author-link=Matthew Rosenberg|date=July 6, 2017|access-date=October 7, 2021|work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Sanger|first=David E.|author-link=David E. Sanger|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/06/us/politics/russia-hack-report.html|title=Putin Ordered 'Influence Campaign' Aimed at U.S. Election, Report Says|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=January 6, 2017 |access-date=October 4, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; In March 2017, FBI Director [[James Comey]] told Congress, &quot;[T]he FBI, as part of our counterintelligence mission, is investigating the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election. That includes investigating the nature of any links between individuals associated with the Trump campaign and the Russian government, and whether there was any coordination between the campaign and Russia's efforts.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/its-official-the-fbi-is-investigating-trumps-links-to-russia/520134/|title=It's Official: The FBI Is Investigating Trump's Links to Russia|last=Berman|first=Russell|date=March 20, 2017|work=[[The Atlantic]]|access-date=June 7, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; Many suspicious&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Harding|first=Luke|title=How Trump walked into Putin's web|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=November 15, 2017|url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/15/how-trump-walked-into-putins-web-luke|access-date=May 22, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[links between Trump associates and Russian officials and spies]] were discovered and the relationships between Russians and &quot;team Trump&quot;, including Manafort, Flynn, and Stone, were widely reported by the press.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/13/donald-trump-russia-vladimir-putin-us-election-hack|title=Trump's relationship with Russia – what we know and what comes next|last=McCarthy|first=Tom|date=December 13, 2016|work=[[The Guardian]]|access-date=March 11, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/03/03/the-web-of-relationships-between-team-trump-and-russia/|title=The web of relationships between Team Trump and Russia|last=Bump|first=Philip|date=March 3, 2017|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|access-date=March 11, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://time.com/4433880/donald-trump-ties-to-russia/|title=Donald Trump's Many, Many, Many, Many Ties to Russia|last=Nesbit|first=Jeff|date=August 2, 2016|magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]|access-date=February 28, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/08/19/paul-manaforts-complicated-ties-to-ukraine-explained/|title=Paul Manafort's complicated ties to Ukraine, explained|last=Phillips|first=Amber|date=August 19, 2016|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|access-date=June 14, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; Members of Trump's campaign and his White House staff, particularly Flynn, were in contact with Russian officials both before and after the election.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=We Still Don't Know What Happened Between Trump and Russia|url=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/we-still-dont-know-what-happened-between-trump-and-russia/602116/|work=[[The Atlantic]]|date=November 15, 2019|access-date=October 7, 2021|first=David A.|last=Graham}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-contacts-idUSKCN18E106|title=Exclusive: Trump campaign had at least 18 undisclosed contacts with Russians: sources|last1=Parker|first1=Ned|last2=Landay|first2=Jonathan|last3=Strobel|first3=Warren|date=May 18, 2017|access-date=May 19, 2017|work=[[Reuters]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; On December&amp;nbsp;29, 2016, Flynn talked with Russian Ambassador [[Sergey Kislyak]] about sanctions that were imposed that same day; Flynn later resigned in the midst of controversy over whether he misled Pence.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://cnn.com/2017/02/13/politics/michael-flynn-white-house-national-security-adviser/|title=Flynn resigns amid controversy over Russia contacts|last1=Murray|first1=Sara|author-link1=Sara Murray (journalist)|last2=Borger|first2=Gloria|author-link2=Gloria Borger|last3=Diamond|first3=Jeremy|author-link3=Jeremy Diamond (journalist)|date=February 14, 2017|access-date=March 2, 2017|work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump told Kislyak and [[Sergei Lavrov]] in May 2017 he was unconcerned about Russian interference in U.S. elections.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-told-russian-officials-in-2017-he-wasnt-concerned-about-moscows-interference-in-us-election/2019/09/27/b20a8bc8-e159-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html|title=Trump told Russian officials in 2017 he wasn't concerned about Moscow's interference in U.S. election|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=September 27, 2019|access-date=October 8, 2021|first1=Shane|last1=Harris|author-link1=Shane Harris|first2=Josh|last2=Dawsey|author-link2=Josh Dawsey|first3=Ellen|last3=Nakashima|author-link3=Ellen Nakashima}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump and his allies promoted [[Conspiracy theories related to the Trump–Ukraine scandal|a conspiracy theory]] that Ukraine, rather than Russia, interfered in the 2016 election—which was also promoted by Russia to [[Frameup|frame]] Ukraine.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/22/us/politics/ukraine-russia-interference.html|title=Charges of Ukrainian Meddling? A Russian Operation, U.S. Intelligence Says|first1=Julian E.|last1=Barnes|first2=Matthew|last2=Rosenberg|author-link2=Matthew Rosenberg|date=November 22, 2019|access-date=October 8, 2021|work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== FBI Crossfire Hurricane and 2017 counterintelligence investigations ==== In July 2016, the FBI launched an investigation, codenamed [[Crossfire Hurricane (FBI investigation)|Crossfire Hurricane]], into possible links between Russia and the Trump campaign.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Apuzzo |first1=Matt |author-link=Matt Apuzzo |last2=Goldman |first2=Adam |author-link2=Adam Goldman |last3=Fandos |first3=Nicholas |author-link3=Nicholas Fandos |date=May 16, 2018 |title=Code Name Crossfire Hurricane: The Secret Origins of the Trump Investigation |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/us/politics/crossfire-hurricane-trump-russia-fbi-mueller-investigation.html |url-access=subscription |access-date=December 21, 2023 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; After Trump fired FBI director James Comey in May 2017, the FBI opened a counterintelligence investigation into Trump's personal and [[Business projects of Donald Trump in Russia|business dealings with Russia]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[NBC News]]|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/fbi-agent-who-helped-launch-russia-investigation-says-trump-was-n1239442|title=FBI agent who helped launch Russia investigation says Trump was 'compromised'|access-date=December 21, 2023|first=Ken|last=Dilanian|date=September 7, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Crossfire Hurricane was transferred to the Mueller investigation,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.9news.com.au/world/crossfire-hurricane-trump-russia-investigation-started-with-alexander-downer-interview/16121e23-bdfc-4f32-9822-e4a7f841e3e4|work=[[Nine News]]|title=Crossfire Hurricane: Trump Russia investigation started with Alexander Downer interview|first=Nick|last=Pearson|date=May 17, 2018|access-date=December 21, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; but Deputy Attorney General [[Rod Rosenstein]] ended the investigation into Trump's direct ties to Russia while giving the bureau the false impression that the [[Robert Mueller]]'s special counsel investigation would pursue the matter.&lt;ref name=&quot;never&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Schmidt |first=Michael S. |author-link=Michael S. Schmidt |date=August 30, 2020 |title=Justice Dept. Never Fully Examined Trump's Ties to Russia, Ex-Officials Say |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/30/us/politics/trump-russia-justice-department.html |url-access=subscription |access-date=October 8, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-rosenstein-idUSKBN23330H|title=Rosenstein to testify in Senate on Trump-Russia probe|work=[[Reuters]]|date=May 27, 2020|access-date=October 19, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Mueller investigation ==== {{Main|Mueller special counsel investigation|Mueller report|Criminal charges brought in the Mueller special counsel investigation}} In May 2017, Rosenstein appointed former FBI director Mueller [[special counsel]] for the [[United States Department of Justice|Department of Justice]] (DOJ), ordering him to &quot;examine 'any links and/or coordination between the Russian government' and the Trump campaign&quot;. He privately told Mueller to restrict the investigation to criminal matters &quot;in connection with Russia's 2016 election interference&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;never&quot;/&gt; The special counsel also investigated whether Trump's [[dismissal of James Comey]] as FBI director constituted obstruction of justice&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/06/15/the-president-is-under-investigation-for-obstruction-of-justice-how-did-we-get-here/|title=Trump Is Officially under Investigation. How Did We Get Here?|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|last=Vitkovskaya|first=Julie|date=June 16, 2017|access-date=June 16, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt; and the Trump campaign's possible ties to Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, [[Turkey]], [[Qatar]], Israel, and China.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=Joshua|last=Keating|author-link=Joshua Keating|title=It's Not Just a &quot;Russia&quot; Investigation Anymore|url=https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/03/mueller-investigation-spreads-to-qatar-israel-uae-china-turkey.html|work=[[Slate (magazine)|Slate]]|date=March 8, 2018|access-date=October 8, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump sought to fire Mueller and shut down the investigation multiple times, but backed down after his staff objected or after changing his mind.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Haberman|first1=Maggie|author-link1=Maggie Haberman|last2=Schmidt|first2=Michael S.|author-link2=Michael S. Schmidt|title=Trump Sought to Fire Mueller in December|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/10/us/politics/trump-sought-to-fire-mueller-in-december.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=April 10, 2018|access-date=October 8, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; In March 2019, Mueller gave [[Mueller report|his final report]] to Attorney General [[William Barr]],&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/22/robert-mueller-submits-special-counsels-russia-probe-report-to-attorney-general-william-barr.html|title=Mueller probe ends: Special counsel submits Russia report to Attorney General William Barr|last=Breuninger|first=Kevin|date=March 22, 2019|work=[[CNBC]]|access-date=March 22, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; which Barr purported to summarize [[Barr letter|in a letter to Congress]]. A federal court, and Mueller himself, said Barr mischaracterized the investigation's conclusions and, in so doing, confused the public.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/mueller-complained-that-barrs-letter-did-not-capture-context-of-trump-probe/2019/04/30/d3c8fdb6-6b7b-11e9-a66d-a82d3f3d96d5_story.html|title=Mueller complained that Barr's letter did not capture 'context' of Trump probe|first1=Devlin|last1=Barrett|first2=Matt|last2=Zapotosky|date=April 30, 2019|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|access-date=May 30, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/mueller-report-attorney-general-william-barr/2020/03/05/3fa7afce-5f2c-11ea-b29b-9db42f7803a7_story.html|title=Judge cites Barr's 'misleading' statements in ordering review of Mueller report redactions|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|first1=Spencer S.|last1=Hsu|first2=Devlin|last2=Barrett|date=March 5, 2020|access-date=October 8, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/05/us/politics/mueller-report-barr-judge-walton.html|title=Judge Calls Barr's Handling of Mueller Report 'Distorted' and 'Misleading'|first=Charlie|last=Savage|author-link=Charlie Savage (author)|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=March 5, 2020|access-date=October 8, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump repeatedly claimed that the investigation exonerated him; the Mueller report expressly stated that it did not.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Hope|last1=Yen|first2=Calvin|last2=Woodward|title=AP FACT CHECK: Trump falsely claims Mueller exonerated him|url=https://apnews.com/article/130932b573664ea5a4d186f752bb8d50|date=July 24, 2019|access-date=October 8, 2021|work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; A redacted version of the report, publicly released in April 2019, found that Russia interfered in 2016 to favor Trump.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Main points of Mueller report|date=January 16, 2012 |url=https://www.afp.com/en/news/15/main-points-mueller-report-doc-1fr5vv1|agency=[[Agence France-Presse]]|access-date=April 20, 2019|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190420143436/https://www.afp.com/en/news/15/main-points-mueller-report-doc-1fr5vv1|archive-date=April 20, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; Despite &quot;numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump campaign&quot;, the report found that the prevailing evidence &quot;did not establish&quot; that Trump campaign members conspired or coordinated with Russian interference.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Ostriker|first1=Rebecca|last2=Puzzanghera|first2=Jim|last3=Finucane|first3=Martin|last4=Datar|first4=Saurabh|last5=Uraizee|first5=Irfan|last6=Garvin|first6=Patrick|title=What the Mueller report says about Trump and more|url=https://apps.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/graphics/2019/03/mueller-report/|work=[[The Boston Globe]]|date=April 18, 2019|access-date=April 22, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;takeaways&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Law|first=Tara|title=Here Are the Biggest Takeaways From the Mueller Report|date=April 18, 2019|url=https://time.com/5567077/mueller-report-release/|magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]|access-date=April 22, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; The report revealed sweeping Russian interference&lt;ref name=&quot;takeaways&quot;/&gt; and detailed how Trump and his campaign welcomed and encouraged it, believing it would benefit them electorally.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Lynch|first1=Sarah N.|last2=Sullivan|first2=Andy|date=April 18, 2018|title=In unflattering detail, Mueller report reveals Trump actions to impede inquiry|work=[[Reuters]]|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-idUSKCN1RU0DN |access-date=July 10, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=July 24, 2019|first=Mark|last=Mazzetti|author-link=Mark Mazzetti|title=Mueller Warns of Russian Sabotage and Rejects Trump's 'Witch Hunt' Claims|access-date=March 4, 2020|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/24/us/politics/trump-mueller-testimony.html}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=May 30, 2019|last=Bump|first=Philip|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/30/trump-briefly-acknowledges-that-russia-aided-his-election-falsely-says-he-didnt-help-effort/|access-date=March 5, 2020|title=Trump briefly acknowledges that Russia aided his election – and falsely says he didn't help the effort}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Polantz|first1=Katelyn|last2=Kaufman|first2=Ellie|last3=Murray|first3=Sara|url=https://cnn.com/2020/06/19/politics/mueller-report-rerelease-fewer-redactions/|title=Mueller raised possibility Trump lied to him, newly unsealed report reveals|work=[[CNN]]|date=June 19, 2020|access-date=October 30, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; The report also detailed multiple acts of potential obstruction of justice by Trump, but &quot;did not draw ultimate conclusions about the President's conduct&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Barrett|first1=Devlin|last2=Zapotosky|first2=Matt|title=Mueller report lays out obstruction evidence against the president|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/attorney-general-to-provide-overview-of-mueller-report-at-news-conference-before-its-release/2019/04/17/8dcc9440-54b9-11e9-814f-e2f46684196e_story.html|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=April 17, 2019|access-date=April 20, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.factcheck.org/2019/04/what-the-mueller-report-says-about-obstruction/|title=What the Mueller Report Says About Obstruction|last1=Farley|first1=Robert|last2=Robertson|first2=Lori|last3=Gore|first3=D'Angelo|last4=Spencer|first4=Saranac Hale|last5=Fichera|first5=Angelo|last6=McDonald|first6=Jessica|date=April 18, 2019|work=[[FactCheck.org]]|access-date=April 22, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; Investigators decided they could not &quot;apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes&quot; as an [[Office of Legal Counsel]] opinion stated that a sitting president could not be indicted,&lt;ref name=&quot;LM&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Mascaro|first=Lisa|title=Mueller drops obstruction dilemma on Congress|url=https://apnews.com/article/35829a2b010248f193d1efd00c4de7e5|work=[[AP News]]|date=April 18, 2019|access-date=April 20, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; and investigators would not accuse him of a crime when he cannot clear his name in court.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/robert-mueller-statement-today-report-investigation-trump-2016-election-live-updates-2019-05/|title=Mueller: If it were clear president committed no crime, &quot;we would have said so&quot;|last=Segers|first=Grace|date=May 29, 2019|work=[[CBS News]]|access-date=June 2, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; The report concluded that Congress, having the authority to take action against a president for wrongdoing, &quot;may apply the obstruction laws&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;LM&quot;/&gt; The House of Representatives subsequently launched an [[Impeachment inquiry against Donald Trump|impeachment inquiry]] following the [[Trump–Ukraine scandal]], but did not pursue an article of impeachment related to the Mueller investigation.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Why Democrats sidelined Mueller in impeachment articles|first1=Kyle|last1=Cheney|author-link1=Kyle Cheney (journalist)|first2=Heather|last2=Caygle|first3=John|last3=Bresnahan|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/10/democrats-sidelined-mueller-trump-impeachment-080910|work=[[Politico]]|date=December 10, 2019|access-date=October 8, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/12/10/democrats-ditch-bribery-mueller-trump-impeachment-articles-is-that-smart-play/|title=Democrats ditch 'bribery' and Mueller in Trump impeachment articles. But is that the smart play?|first=Aaron|last=Blake|date=December 10, 2019|access-date=October 8, 2021|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Several Trump associates pleaded guilty or were convicted in connection with Mueller's investigation and related cases, including Manafort&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/manafort-jury-suggests-it-cannot-come-to-a-consensus-on-a-single-count/2018/08/21/a2478ac0-a559-11e8-a656-943eefab5daf_story.html|title=Manafort convicted on 8 counts; mistrial declared on 10 others|last1=Zapotosky|first1=Matt|last2=Bui|first2=Lynh|last3=Jackman|first3=Tom|last4=Barrett|first4=Devlin|date=August 21, 2018|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|access-date=August 21, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; and Flynn.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Mangan|first=Dan|title=Trump and Giuliani are right that 'collusion is not a crime.' But that doesn't matter for Mueller's probe|url=https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/30/giuliani-is-right-collusion-isnt-a-crime-but-that-wont-help-trump.html|work=[[CNBC]]|date=July 30, 2018|access-date=October 8, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Mueller investigation: No jail time sought for Trump ex-adviser Michael Flynn|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46449950|work=[[BBC]]|date=December 5, 2018|access-date=October 8, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump's former attorney [[Michael Cohen (lawyer)|Michael Cohen]] pleaded guilty to lying to Congress about Trump's 2016 attempts to reach a deal with Russia to build [[Trump Tower Moscow|a Trump Tower in Moscow]]. Cohen said he had made the false statements on behalf of Trump.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/michael-cohen-trumps-former-lawyer-pleads-guilty-to-lying-to-congress/2018/11/29/5fac986a-f3e0-11e8-bc79-68604ed88993_story.html|title=Michael Cohen, Trump's former lawyer, pleads guilty to lying to Congress about Moscow project|date=November 29, 2018|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|first1=Devlin|last1=Barrett|first2=Matt|last2=Zapotosky|first3=Rosalind S.|last3=Helderman|author-link3=Rosalind S. Helderman|access-date=December 12, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; In February 2020, Stone was sentenced to 40 months in prison for lying to Congress and witness tampering. The sentencing judge said Stone &quot;was prosecuted for covering up for the president&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first1=Rachel|last1=Weiner|first2=Matt|last2=Zapotosky|first3=Tom|last3=Jackman|first4=Devlin|last4=Barrett|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/roger-stone-sentence-due-thursday-in-federal-court/2020/02/19/2e01bfc8-4c38-11ea-9b5c-eac5b16dafaa_story.html|title=Roger Stone sentenced to three years and four months in prison, as Trump predicts 'exoneration' for his friend|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=February 20, 2020|access-date=March 3, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; === First impeachment === {{Main|First impeachment of Donald Trump|Trump–Ukraine scandal}} [[File:House of Representatives Votes to Adopt the Articles of Impeachment Against Donald Trump.jpg|thumb|upright=1.2|Members of House of Representatives vote on two [[articles of impeachment]] &lt;span class=&quot;nowrap&quot;&gt;({{USBill|116|H. Res.|755}})&lt;/span&gt;, December&amp;nbsp;18, 2019|alt=Nancy Pelosi presides over a crowded House of Representatives chamber floor during the impeachment vote]] In August 2019, a [[Whistleblower protection in the United States|whistleblower]] filed a complaint with the [[Inspector General of the Intelligence Community]] about a July&amp;nbsp;25 phone call between Trump and Ukrainian president [[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]], during which Trump had pressured Zelenskyy to investigate CrowdStrike and Democratic presidential candidate Biden and his son [[Hunter Biden|Hunter]].&lt;ref name=&quot;undermine&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Bump|first=Philip|title=Trump wanted Russia's main geopolitical adversary to help undermine the Russian interference story|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/09/25/trump-wanted-russias-main-geopolitical-adversary-help-him-undermine-russian-interference-story/|access-date=October 1, 2019|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=September 25, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; The whistleblower said that the White House had attempted to cover up the incident and that the call was part of a wider campaign by the Trump administration and Trump attorney [[Rudy Giuliani]] that may have included withholding financial aid from Ukraine in July 2019 and canceling Pence's May 2019 Ukraine trip.&lt;ref name=&quot;abuse&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Cohen|first1=Marshall|last2=Polantz|first2=Katelyn|last3=Shortell|first3=David|last4=Kupperman|first4=Tammy|last5=Callahan|first5=Michael|url=https://cnn.com/2019/09/26/politics/whistleblower-complaint-released/|title=Whistleblower says White House tried to cover up Trump's abuse of power|work=[[CNN]]|date=September 26, 2019|access-date=October 4, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; House Speaker [[Nancy Pelosi]] initiated [[Impeachment inquiry against Donald Trump|a formal impeachment inquiry]] on September&amp;nbsp;24.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=September 24, 2019|access-date=October 8, 2021|first=Nicholas|last=Fandos|author-link=Nicholas Fandos|title=Nancy Pelosi Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry of Trump|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/us/politics/democrats-impeachment-trump.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump then confirmed that he withheld military aid from Ukraine, offering contradictory reasons for the decision.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Forgey|first=Quint|title=Trump changes story on withholding Ukraine aid|url=https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/24/donald-trump-ukraine-military-aid-1509070|access-date=October 1, 2019|work=[[Politico]]|date=September 24, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|first=David A.|last=Graham|access-date=July 7, 2021|title=Trump's Incriminating Conversation With the Ukrainian President|url=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/what-the-transcript-of-trumps-insane-call-with-the-ukrainian-president-showed/598780/|date=September 25, 2019|work=[[The Atlantic]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; On September&amp;nbsp;25, the Trump administration released a memorandum of the phone call which confirmed that, after Zelenskyy mentioned purchasing American anti-tank missiles, Trump asked him to discuss investigating Biden and his son with Giuliani and Barr.&lt;ref name=&quot;undermine&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Santucci|first1=John|last2=Mallin|first2=Alexander|last3=Thomas|first3=Pierre|author-link3=Pierre Thomas (journalist)|last4=Faulders|first4=Katherine|title=Trump urged Ukraine to work with Barr and Giuliani to probe Biden: Call transcript|url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/transcript-trump-call-ukraine-includes-talk-giuliani-barr/story?id=65848768|access-date=October 1, 2019|work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]|date=September 25, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; The testimony of multiple administration officials and former officials confirmed that this was part of a broader effort to further Trump's personal interests by giving him an advantage in the upcoming presidential election.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2019/09/24/whistleblower-complaint/assets/amp.html|title=Document: Read the Whistle-Blower Complaint|date=September 24, 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=October 2, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; In October, [[William B. Taylor Jr.]], the [[List of ambassadors of the United States to Ukraine|chargé d'affaires for Ukraine]], testified before congressional committees that soon after arriving in Ukraine in June 2019, he found that Zelenskyy was being subjected to pressure directed by Trump and led by Giuliani. According to Taylor and others, the goal was to coerce Zelenskyy into making a public commitment to investigate the company that employed Hunter Biden, as well as rumors about Ukrainian involvement in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/22/us/trump-impeachment-ukraine.html|title=Ukraine Envoy Testifies Trump Linked Military Aid to Investigations, Lawmaker Says|last1=Shear|first1=Michael D.|author-link1=Michael D. Shear|last2=Fandos|first2=Nicholas|author-link2=Nicholas Fandos|date=October 22, 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=October 22, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; He said it was made clear that until Zelenskyy made such an announcement, the administration would not release scheduled military aid for Ukraine and not invite Zelenskyy to the White House.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/22/us/politics/william-taylor-testimony.html|title=6 Key Revelations of Taylor's Opening Statement to Impeachment Investigators|last=LaFraniere|first=Sharon|author-link=Sharon LaFraniere|date=October 22, 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=October 23, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; On December&amp;nbsp;13, the [[House Judiciary Committee]] voted along party lines to pass two articles of impeachment: one for [[abuse of power]] and one for [[obstruction of Congress]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/house-judiciary-committee-set-vote-trump-impeachment-articles/story?id=67706093|last1=Siegel|first1=Benjamin|last2=Faulders|first2=Katherine|last3=Pecorin|first3=Allison|title=House Judiciary Committee passes articles of impeachment against President Trump|date=December 13, 2019|work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]|access-date=December 13, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; After debate, the House of Representatives [[Impeachment in the United States|impeached]] Trump on both articles on December&amp;nbsp;18.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Gregorian|first=Dareh|title=Trump impeached by the House for abuse of power, obstruction of Congress|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/trump-impeached-house-abuse-power-n1104196|access-date=December 18, 2019|work=[[NBC News]]|date=December 18, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:President Trump Delivers Remarks (49498772251).jpg|thumb|Trump displaying the headline &quot;Trump acquitted&quot;]] During the trial in January 2020, the House impeachment managers cited evidence to support charges of abuse of power and obstruction of Congress and asserted that Trump's actions were exactly what the founding fathers had in mind when they created the impeachment process.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/democrats-detail-abuse-of-power-charge-against-trump-as-republicans-complain-of-repetitive-arguments/2020/01/23/3fb149b4-3e05-11ea-8872-5df698785a4e_story.html|title=Democrats detail abuse-of-power charge against Trump as Republicans complain of repetitive arguments|date=January 23, 2020|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|access-date=January 27, 2020|first1=Seung Min|last1=Kim|author-link1=Seung Min Kim|first2=John|last2=Wagner|first3=Karoun|last3=Demirjian|author-link3=Karoun Demirjian}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump's lawyers did not deny the facts as presented in the charges, but said that Trump had not broken any laws or obstructed Congress.&lt;ref name=&quot;brazen&quot;&gt;{{cite news|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=January 18, 2020|first1=Michael D.|last1=Shear|author-link1=Michael D. Shear|first2=Nicholas|last2=Fandos|author-link2=Nicholas Fandos|title=Trump's Defense Team Calls Impeachment Charges 'Brazen' as Democrats Make Legal Case|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/us/politics/house-trump-impeachment.html|access-date=January 30, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; They argued that the impeachment was &quot;constitutionally and legally invalid&quot; because Trump was not charged with a crime and that abuse of power is not an impeachable offense.&lt;ref name=&quot;brazen&quot;/&gt; On January&amp;nbsp;31, the Senate voted against allowing subpoenas for witnesses or documents.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Herb|first1=Jeremy|last2=Mattingly|first2=Phil|last3=Raju|first3=Manu|author-link3=Manu Raju|last4=Fox|first4=Lauren|title=Senate impeachment trial: Wednesday acquittal vote scheduled after effort to have witnesses fails|url=https://cnn.com/2020/01/31/politics/senate-impeachment-trial-last-day/|access-date=February 2, 2020|work=[[CNN]]|date=January 31, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; The impeachment trial was the first in U.S. history without witness testimony.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Bookbinder|first=Noah|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/01/09/senate-has-conducted-15-impeachment-trials-it-heard-witnesses-every-one/|title=The Senate has conducted 15 impeachment trials. It heard witnesses in every one.|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=January 9, 2020|access-date=February 8, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump was acquitted of both charges by the Republican majority. Senator [[Mitt Romney]] was the only Republican who voted to convict Trump on one charge, the abuse of power.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[CNBC]]|date=February 5, 2020|title=Trump acquitted of both charges in Senate impeachment trial|last1=Wilkie|first1=Christina|last2=Breuninger|first2=Kevin|url=https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/05/trump-acquitted-in-impeachment-trial.html|access-date=February 2, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Following his acquittal, Trump fired impeachment witnesses and other political appointees and career officials he deemed insufficiently loyal.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=February 22, 2020|first=Peter|last=Baker|author-link=Peter Baker (journalist)|title=Trump's Efforts to Remove the Disloyal Heightens Unease Across His Administration|access-date=February 22, 2020|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/22/us/politics/trump-disloyalty-turnover.html}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Second impeachment === {{Main|Second impeachment of Donald Trump|Second impeachment trial of Donald Trump}} [[File:Pelosi Signing Second Trump Impeachment.png|thumb|upright=1.35|alt=Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi seated at a table and surrounded by public officials. She is signing the second impeachment of Trump.|Speaker of the House [[Nancy Pelosi]] signing the second impeachment of Trump]] On January&amp;nbsp;11, 2021, an article of impeachment charging Trump with [[incitement of insurrection]] against the U.S. government was introduced to the House.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.npr.org/sections/trump-impeachment-effort-live-updates/2021/01/11/955631105/impeachment-resolution-cites-trumps-incitement-of-capitol-insurrection|title=Impeachment Resolution Cites Trump's 'Incitement' of Capitol Insurrection|first=Brian|last=Naylor|work=[[NPR]]|date=January 11, 2021|access-date=January 11, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; The House voted 232–197 to impeach Trump on January&amp;nbsp;13, making him the first U.S. president to be impeached twice.&lt;ref name=SecondImpeachment&gt;{{cite news|last=Fandos|first=Nicholas|author-link=Nicholas Fandos|title=Trump Impeached for Inciting Insurrection|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/us/politics/trump-impeached.html|access-date=January 14, 2021|date=January 13, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Ten Republicans voted for the impeachment—the most members of a party ever to vote to impeach a president of their own party.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/13/trumps-second-impeachment-is-most-bipartisan-one-history/|title=Trump's second impeachment is the most bipartisan one in history|last=Blake|first=Aaron|date=January 13, 2021|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|access-date=January 19, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; On February&amp;nbsp;13, following a [[Second impeachment trial of Donald Trump|five-day Senate trial]], Trump was acquitted when the Senate vote fell ten votes short of the two-thirds majority required to convict; seven Republicans joined every Democrat in voting to convict, the most bipartisan support in any Senate impeachment trial of a president or former president.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Levine|first1=Sam|last2=Gambino|first2=Lauren|date=February 13, 2021|title=Donald Trump acquitted in impeachment trial|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/13/donald-trump-acquitted-impeachment-trial|work=[[The Guardian]]|access-date=February 13, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Fandos|first=Nicholas|author-link=Nicholas Fandos|date=February 13, 2021|title=Trump Acquitted of Inciting Insurrection, Even as Bipartisan Majority Votes 'Guilty'|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/13/us/politics/trump-impeachment.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=February 14, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Most Republicans voted to acquit Trump, although some held him responsible but felt the Senate did not have jurisdiction over former presidents (Trump had left office on January&amp;nbsp;20; the Senate voted 56–44 that the trial was constitutional).&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Watson|first1=Kathryn|last2=Quinn|first2=Melissa|last3=Segers|first3=Grace|last4=Becket|first4=Stefan|date=February 10, 2021|title=Senate finds Trump impeachment trial constitutional on first day of proceedings|url=https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/trump-impeachment-trial-senate-constitutional-day-1/|work=[[CBS News]]|access-date=February 18, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; == 2020 election and post-presidency == === Defeat by Biden === {{Main|2020 United States presidential election|Donald Trump 2020 presidential campaign}} Breaking with precedent, Trump filed to run for a second term within a few hours of assuming the presidency.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Morehouse |first=Lee |date=January 31, 2017 |title=Trump breaks precedent, files as candidate for re-election on first day |url=https://www.azfamily.com/story/34380443/trump-breaks-precedent-files-on-first-day-as-candidate-for-re-election |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170202210255/https://www.azfamily.com/story/34380443/trump-breaks-precedent-files-on-first-day-as-candidate-for-re-election |archive-date=February 2, 2017 |access-date=February 19, 2017 |work=[[KTVK]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He held his first reelection rally less than a month after taking office&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Graham |first=David A. |date=February 15, 2017 |title=Trump Kicks Off His 2020 Reelection Campaign on Saturday |url=https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/trump-kicks-off-his-2020-reelection-campaign-on-saturday/516909/ |access-date=February 19, 2017 |work=[[The Atlantic]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and officially became the [[2020 Republican Party presidential primaries|Republican nominee]] in August 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Martin |first1=Jonathan |author-link1=Jonathan Martin (journalist) |last2=Burns |first2=Alexander |author-link2=Alex Burns (journalist) |last3=Karni |first3=Annie |author-link3=Annie Karni |date=August 24, 2020 |title=Nominating Trump, Republicans Rewrite His Record |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/24/us/politics/republican-convention-recap.html |access-date=August 25, 2020 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In his first two years in office, Trump's reelection committee reported raising $67.5&amp;nbsp;million and began 2019 with $19.3&amp;nbsp;million in cash.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Balcerzak |first1=Ashley |last2=Levinthal |first2=Dave |last3=Levine |first3=Carrie |last4=Kleiner |first4=Sarah |last5=Beachum |first5=Lateshia |date=February 1, 2019 |title=Donald Trump's campaign cash machine: big, brawny and burning money |url=https://publicintegrity.org/politics/donald-trump-money-campaign-2020/ |access-date=October 8, 2021 |work=[[Center for Public Integrity]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; By July 2020, the Trump campaign and the Republican Party had raised $1.1&amp;nbsp;billion and spent $800&amp;nbsp;million, losing their cash advantage over Biden.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Goldmacher |first1=Shane |last2=Haberman |first2=Maggie |author-link2=Maggie Haberman |date=September 7, 2020 |title=How Trump's Billion-Dollar Campaign Lost Its Cash Advantage |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/07/us/politics/trump-election-campaign-fundraising.html |access-date=October 8, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; The cash shortage forced the campaign to scale back advertising spending.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Egkolfopoulou |first1=Misyrlena |last2=Allison |first2=Bill |last3=Korte |first3=Gregory |date=September 14, 2020 |title=Trump Campaign Slashes Ad Spending in Key States in Cash Crunch |url=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-14/trump-campaign-slashes-ad-spending-in-key-states-in-cash-crunch |access-date=October 8, 2021 |work=[[Bloomberg News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump campaign advertisements focused on crime, claiming that cities would descend into lawlessness if Biden won.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Haberman |first1=Maggie |author-link1=Maggie Haberman |last2=Corasaniti |first2=Nick |last3=Karni |first3=Annie |author-link3=Annie Karni |date=July 21, 2020 |title=As Trump Pushes into Portland, His Campaign Ads Turn Darker |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/us/politics/trump-portland-federal-agents.html |access-date=July 25, 2020 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He repeatedly misrepresented Biden's positions&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Bump |first=Philip |date=August 28, 2020 |title=Nearly every claim Trump made about Biden's positions was false |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/08/28/nearly-every-claim-trump-made-about-bidens-positions-was-false/ |access-date=October 9, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Dale |first1=Daniel |author-link1=Daniel Dale |last2=Subramaniam |first2=Tara |last3=Lybrand |first3=Holmes |date=August 31, 2020 |title=Fact check: Trump makes more false claims about Biden and protests |url=https://cnn.com/2020/08/31/politics/trump-kenosha-briefing-fact-check/ |access-date=October 9, 2021 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and shifted to appeals to racism.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Hopkins |first=Dan |date=August 27, 2020 |title=Why Trump's Racist Appeals Might Be Less Effective In 2020 Than They Were In 2016 |url=https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-trumps-racist-appeals-might-be-less-effective-in-2020-than-they-were-in-2016 |access-date=May 28, 2021 |work=[[FiveThirtyEight]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Starting in the spring of 2020, Trump began to sow doubts about the election, claiming without evidence that the election would be rigged and that the expected widespread use of mail balloting would produce massive election fraud.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Kumar |first=Anita |date=August 8, 2020 |title=Trump aides exploring executive actions to curb voting by mail |url=https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/08/trump-wants-to-cut-mail-in-voting-the-republican-machine-is-helping-him-392428 |access-date=August 15, 2020 |work=[[Politico]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Saul |first1=Stephanie |author-link1=Stephanie Saul |last2=Epstein |first2=Reid J. |date=August 31, 2020 |title=Trump Is Pushing a False Argument on Vote-by-Mail Fraud. Here Are the Facts. |url=https://www.nytimes.com/article/mail-in-voting-explained.html |access-date=October 8, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; When, in August, the House of Representatives voted for a $25&amp;nbsp;billion grant to the U.S. Postal Service for the expected surge in mail voting, he blocked funding, saying he wanted to prevent any increase in voting by mail, creating a [[2020 United States Postal Service crisis|crisis in the Postal Service]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Bogage |first=Jacob |date=August 12, 2020 |title=Trump says Postal Service needs money for mail-in voting, but he'll keep blocking funding |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/08/12/postal-service-ballots-dejoy/ |access-date=August 14, 2020 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He repeatedly refused to say whether he would accept the results if he lost and commit to a [[peaceful transition of power]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Sonmez |first=Felicia |author-link=Felicia Sonmez |date=July 19, 2020 |title=Trump declines to say whether he will accept November election results |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-declines-to-say-whether-he-will-accept-november-election-results/2020/07/19/40009804-c9c7-11ea-91f1-28aca4d833a0_story.html |access-date=October 8, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Browne |first1=Ryan |last2=Starr |first2=Barbara |author-link2=Barbara Starr |date=September 25, 2020 |title=As Trump refuses to commit to a peaceful transition, Pentagon stresses it will play no role in the election |url=https://cnn.com/2020/09/25/politics/pentagon-election-insurrection-act/ |access-date=October 8, 2021 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Biden won the election on November&amp;nbsp;3, receiving 81.3&amp;nbsp;million votes (51.3&amp;nbsp;percent) to Trump's 74.2&amp;nbsp;million (46.8&amp;nbsp;percent)&lt;ref name=&quot;vote1&quot;&gt;{{cite news |date=December 11, 2020 |title=Presidential Election Results: Biden Wins |url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-president.html |access-date=December 11, 2020 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;vote2&quot;&gt;{{cite news |date=December 10, 2020 |title=2020 US Presidential Election Results: Live Map |url=https://abcnews.go.com/Elections/2020-us-presidential-election-results-live-map |access-date=December 11, 2020 |work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and 306 [[United States Electoral College|Electoral College]] votes to Trump's 232.&lt;ref name=&quot;formalize&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=Holder |first1=Josh |last2=Gabriel |first2=Trip |author-link2=Trip Gabriel |last3=Paz |first3=Isabella Grullón |date=December 14, 2020 |title=Biden's 306 Electoral College Votes Make His Victory Official |url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/12/14/us/elections/electoral-college-results.html |access-date=October 9, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Rejection of results ==== {{Further|Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|2020–21 United States election protests|Election denial movement in the United States}} At 2 a.m. the morning after the election, with the results still unclear, Trump declared victory.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |date=November 4, 2020 |title=With results from key states unclear, Trump declares victory |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-election-trump-statement/with-results-from-key-states-unclear-trump-declares-victory-idUKKBN27K0U3 |access-date=November 10, 2020 |work=[[Reuters]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; After Biden was projected the winner days later, Trump stated that &quot;this election is far from over&quot; and baselessly alleged election fraud.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=King |first=Ledyard |date=November 7, 2020 |title=Trump revives baseless claims of election fraud after Biden wins presidential race |url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/07/joe-biden-victory-president-trump-claims-election-far-over/6202892002/ |access-date=November 7, 2020 |work=[[USA Today]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He and his allies filed many [[Post-election lawsuits related to the 2020 United States presidential election|legal challenges to the results]], which were rejected by at least 86 judges in both the [[State court (United States)|state]] and [[United States federal courts|federal courts]], including by federal judges appointed by Trump himself, finding no factual or legal basis.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Helderman |first1=Rosalind S. |author-link1=Rosalind S. Helderman |last2=Viebeck |first2=Elise |date=December 12, 2020 |title='The last wall': How dozens of judges across the political spectrum rejected Trump's efforts to overturn the election |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/judges-trump-election-lawsuits/2020/12/12/e3a57224-3a72-11eb-98c4-25dc9f4987e8_story.html |access-date=October 9, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Blake |first=Aaron |date=December 14, 2020 |title=The most remarkable rebukes of Trump's legal case: From the judges he hand-picked |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/12/14/most-remarkable-rebukes-trumps-legal-case-judges-he-hand-picked/ |access-date=October 9, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; His allegations were also refuted by state election officials.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Woodward |first=Calvin |date=November 16, 2020 |title=AP Fact Check: Trump conclusively lost, denies the evidence |url=https://apnews.com/article/ap-fact-check-trump-conclusively-lost-bbb9d8c808021ed65d91aee003a7bc64 |access-date=November 17, 2020 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; After [[Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency]] director [[Chris Krebs]] contradicted Trump's fraud allegations, Trump dismissed him on November&amp;nbsp;17.&lt;ref name=&quot;BBC_election&quot;&gt;{{cite news |date=November 18, 2020 |title=Trump fires election security official who contradicted him |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54982360 |access-date=November 18, 2020 |work=[[BBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; On December&amp;nbsp;11, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear [[Texas v. Pennsylvania|a case from the Texas attorney general]] that asked the court to overturn the election results in four states won by Biden.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Liptak |first=Adam |author-link=Adam Liptak |date=December 11, 2020 |title=Supreme Court Rejects Texas Suit Seeking to Subvert Election |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/11/us/politics/supreme-court-election-texas.html |access-date=October 9, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump withdrew from public activities in the weeks following the election.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Smith |first=David |date=November 21, 2020 |title=Trump's monumental sulk: president retreats from public eye as Covid ravages US |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/21/trump-monumental-sulk-president-retreats-from-public-eye-covid-ravages-us |access-date=October 9, 2021 |work=[[The Guardian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He initially blocked government officials from cooperating in [[presidential transition of Joe Biden|Biden's presidential transition]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Lamire |first1=Jonathan |last2=Miller |first2=Zeke |author-link2=Zeke Miller |date=November 9, 2020 |title=Refusing to concede, Trump blocks cooperation on transition |url=https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-donald-trump-virus-outbreak-elections-voting-fraud-and-irregularities-2d39186996f69de245e59c966d4d140f |access-date=November 10, 2020 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Timm |first1=Jane C. |last2=Smith |first2=Allan |date=November 14, 2020 |title=Trump is stonewalling Biden's transition. Here's why it matters. |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/trump-stonewalling-biden-s-transition-here-s-why-it-matters-n1247768 |access-date=November 26, 2020 |work=[[NBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; After three weeks, the administrator of the [[General Services Administration]] declared Biden the &quot;apparent winner&quot; of the election, allowing the disbursement of transition resources to his team.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Rein |first=Lisa |date=November 23, 2020 |title=Under pressure, Trump appointee Emily Murphy approves transition in unusually personal letter to Biden |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/gsa-emily-murphy-transition-biden/2020/11/23/c0f43e84-2de0-11eb-96c2-aac3f162215d_story.html |access-date=November 24, 2020 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump still did not formally concede while claiming he recommended the GSA begin transition protocols.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Naylor |first1=Brian |last2=Wise |first2=Alana |date=November 23, 2020 |title=President-Elect Biden To Begin Formal Transition Process After Agency OK |url=https://www.npr.org/sections/biden-transition-updates/2020/11/23/937956178/trump-administration-to-begin-biden-transition-protocols |access-date=December 11, 2020 |work=[[NPR]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Ordoñez |first1=Franco |last2=Rampton |first2=Roberta |date=November 26, 2020 |title=Trump Is In No Mood To Concede, But Says Will Leave White House |url=https://www.npr.org/sections/biden-transition-updates/2020/11/26/939386434/trump-is-in-no-mood-to-concede-but-says-will-leave-white-house |access-date=December 11, 2020 |work=[[NPR]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Electoral College formalized Biden's victory on December&amp;nbsp;14.&lt;ref name=&quot;formalize&quot; /&gt; From November to January, Trump repeatedly sought help to [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|overturn the results]], personally pressuring Republican local and state office-holders,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Gardner |first=Amy |date=January 3, 2021 |title='I just want to find 11,780 votes': In extraordinary hour-long call, Trump pressures Georgia secretary of state to recalculate the vote in his favor |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-raffensperger-call-georgia-vote/2021/01/03/d45acb92-4dc4-11eb-bda4-615aaefd0555_story.html |access-date=January 20, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Republican state and federal legislators,&lt;ref name=&quot;pressure&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=Kumar |first1=Anita |last2=Orr |first2=Gabby |last3=McGraw |first3=Meridith |date=December 21, 2020 |title=Inside Trump's pressure campaign to overturn the election |url=https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/21/trump-pressure-campaign-overturn-election-449486 |access-date=December 22, 2020 |work=[[Politico]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; the Justice Department,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Cohen |first=Marshall |date=November 5, 2021 |title=Timeline of the coup: How Trump tried to weaponize the Justice Department to overturn the 2020 election |url=https://cnn.com/2021/11/05/politics/january-6-timeline-trump-coup/ |access-date=November 6, 2021 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and Vice President Pence,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Haberman |first1=Maggie |author-link1=Maggie Haberman |last2=Karni |first2=Annie |author-link2=Annie Karni |date=January 5, 2021 |title=Pence Said to Have Told Trump He Lacks Power to Change Election Result |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/05/us/politics/pence-trump-election-results.html |access-date=January 7, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; urging various actions such as [[Trump fake electors plot|replacing presidential electors]], or a request for Georgia officials to &quot;find&quot; votes and announce a &quot;recalculated&quot; result.&lt;ref name=&quot;pressure&quot; /&gt; On February&amp;nbsp;10, 2021, Georgia prosecutors opened a criminal investigation into Trump's efforts to subvert the election in Georgia.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Fausset |first1=Richard |last2=Hakim |first2=Danny |date=February 10, 2021 |title=Georgia Prosecutors Open Criminal Inquiry Into Trump's Efforts to Subvert Election |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/10/us/politics/trump-georgia-investigation.html |access-date=February 11, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump did not attend [[Inauguration of Joe Biden|Biden's inauguration]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Haberman |first=Maggie |author-link=Maggie Haberman |date=January 20, 2021 |title=Trump Departs Vowing, 'We Will Be Back in Some Form' |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/20/us/politics/trump-presidency.html |access-date=January 25, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; === January 6 Capitol attack === {{Main|January 6 United States Capitol attack}} {{For timeline|Timeline of the January 6 United States Capitol attack}} [[File:2021 United States Capitol VOA 1 (cropped).jpg|thumb|Trump speaking at the &quot;Stop the Steal&quot; rally on January&amp;nbsp;6]] In December 2020, ''[[Newsweek]]'' reported [[the Pentagon]] was on red alert, and ranking officers had discussed what to do if Trump declared [[martial law]]. The Pentagon responded with quotes from defense leaders that the military has no role in the outcome of elections.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Arkin |first=William M. |date=December 24, 2020 |title=Exclusive: Donald Trump's martial-law talk has military on red alert |url=https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-donald-trumps-martial-law-talk-has-military-red-alert-1557056 |access-date=September 15, 2021 |work=[[Newsweek]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; When Trump moved supporters into positions of power at the Pentagon after the November 2020 election, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff [[Mark Milley]] and CIA director [[Gina Haspel]] became concerned about a possible [[Self-coup|coup]] attempt or military action against China or Iran.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Gangel |first1=Jamie |author-link1=Jamie Gangel |last2=Herb |first2=Jeremy |last3=Cohen |first3=Marshall |last4=Stuart |first4=Elizabeth |last5=Starr |first5=Barbara |author-link5=Barbara Starr |date=July 14, 2021 |title='They're not going to f**king succeed': Top generals feared Trump would attempt a coup after election, according to new book |url=https://cnn.com/2021/07/14/politics/donald-trump-election-coup-new-book-excerpt/ |access-date=September 15, 2021 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Breuninger |first=Kevin |date=July 15, 2021 |title=Top U.S. Gen. Mark Milley feared Trump would attempt a coup after his loss to Biden, new book says |url=https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/15/mark-milley-feared-coup-after-trump-lost-to-biden-book.html |access-date=September 15, 2021 |work=[[CNBC]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Milley insisted that he should be consulted about any military orders from Trump, including the use of nuclear weapons.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Gangel |first1=Jamie |author-link1=Jamie Gangel |last2=Herb |first2=Jeremy |last3=Stuart |first3=Elizabeth |date=September 14, 2021 |title=Woodward/Costa book: Worried Trump could 'go rogue,' Milley took top-secret action to protect nuclear weapons |url=https://cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/woodward-book-trump-nuclear/ |access-date=September 15, 2021 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Schmidt |first=Michael S. |author-link=Michael S. Schmidt |date=September 14, 2021 |title=Fears That Trump Might Launch a Strike Prompted General to Reassure China, Book Says |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/14/us/politics/peril-woodward-book-trump.html |access-date=September 15, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; On January&amp;nbsp;6, 2021, while [[2021 United States Electoral College vote count|congressional certification of the presidential election results]] was taking place in the U.S. Capitol, Trump held a noon rally at [[the Ellipse]] in Washington, D.C., where he called for the election result to be overturned and urged his supporters to &quot;fight like hell&quot; and &quot;take back our country&quot; by marching to the Capitol.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Savage |first=Charlie |author-link=Charlie Savage (author) |date=January 10, 2021 |title=Incitement to Riot? What Trump Told Supporters Before Mob Stormed Capitol |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/10/us/trump-speech-riot.html |access-date=January 11, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |date=January 6, 2021 |title=Donald Trump Speech 'Save America' Rally Transcript January 6 |url=https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-save-america-rally-transcript-january-6 |access-date=January 8, 2021 |website=[[Rev (company)|Rev]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Many supporters did, joining a crowd already there. The mob broke into the building, disrupting certification and causing the evacuation of Congress.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Tan |first1=Shelley |last2=Shin |first2=Youjin |last3=Rindler |first3=Danielle |date=January 9, 2021 |title=How one of America's ugliest days unraveled inside and outside the Capitol |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2021/capitol-insurrection-visual-timeline/ |access-date=May 2, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; During the violence, Trump posted messages on [[Twitter]] without asking the rioters to disperse. At 6&amp;nbsp;p.m., he tweeted that the rioters should &quot;go home with love &amp; in peace&quot;, calling them &quot;great patriots&quot; and repeating that the election was stolen.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Panetta |first1=Grace |last2=Lahut |first2=Jake |last3=Zavarise |first3=Isabella |last4=Frias |first4=Lauren |date=December 21, 2022 |title=A timeline of what Trump was doing as his MAGA mob attacked the US Capitol on Jan. 6 |url=https://www.businessinsider.com/timeline-what-trump-was-doing-as-his-mob-attacked-the-capitol-on-jan-6-2022-7 |access-date=June 1, 2023 |work=[[Business Insider]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; After the mob was removed, Congress reconvened and confirmed Biden's win in the early hours of the following morning.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Gregorian |first1=Dareh |last2=Gibson |first2=Ginger |last3=Kapur |first3=Sahil |last4=Helsel |first4=Phil |date=January 6, 2021 |title=Congress confirms Biden's win after pro-Trump mob's assault on Capitol |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/congress-begin-electoral-vote-count-amid-protests-inside-outside-capitol-n1253013 |access-date=January 8, 2021 |work=[[NBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; According to the Department of Justice, more than 140 police officers were injured, and five people died.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Rubin |first1=Olivia |last2=Mallin |first2=Alexander |last3=Steakin |first3=Will |date=January 4, 2022 |title=By the numbers: How the Jan. 6 investigation is shaping up 1 year later |url=https://abcnews.go.com/US/numbers-jan-investigation-shaping-year/story?id=82057743 |access-date=June 4, 2023 |work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Cameron |first=Chris |date=January 5, 2022 |title=These Are the People Who Died in Connection With the Capitol Riot |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/05/us/politics/jan-6-capitol-deaths.html |access-date=January 29, 2022 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In March 2023, Trump collaborated with incarcerated rioters on a [[Justice for All (song)|song to benefit the prisoners]], and in June, he said that, if elected, he would pardon many of them.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Terkel |first=Amanda |date=May 11, 2023 |title=Trump says he would pardon a 'large portion' of Jan. 6 rioters |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-says-pardon-large-portion-jan-6-rioters-rcna83873 |access-date=June 3, 2023 |work=[[NBC]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Status during post-presidency === {{See also|Personal and business legal affairs of Donald Trump|Legal affairs of Donald Trump as president}} Trump lives at his Mar-a-Lago club, having established an office there as provided for by the [[Former Presidents Act]].&lt;ref name=moved/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Wolfe|first=Jan|title=Explainer: Why Trump's post-presidency perks, like a pension and office, are safe for the rest of his life|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-impeachment-benefits-explai-idUSKBN29W238|work=[[Reuters]]|date=January 27, 2021 |access-date=February 2, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Quinn|first=Melissa|title=Trump opens 'Office of the Former President' in Florida|url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-office-former-president-florida/|work=[[CBS News]]|date=January 27, 2021 |access-date=February 2, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump is entitled to live there legally as a club employee.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Spencer|first=Terry|title=Palm Beach considers options as Trump remains at Mar-a-Lago|url=https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-fort-lauderdale-florida-mar-a-lago-melania-trump-fd4fd80c6a2d7ef23a274c0597700730|work=[[AP News]]|date=January 28, 2021 |access-date=February 2, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Durkee|first=Allison|url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/05/07/trump-can-legally-live-at-mar-a-lago-palm-beach-says/|title=Trump Can Legally Live At Mar-A-Lago, Palm Beach Says|work=[[Forbes]]|date=May 7, 2021|access-date=March 7, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Big lie#Donald Trump's false claims of a stolen election|Trump's false claims]] concerning the 2020 election were commonly referred to as the &quot;[[big lie]]&quot; in the press and by his critics. In May 2021, Trump and his supporters attempted to co-opt the term, using it to refer to the election itself.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Solender|first=Andrew|url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2021/05/03/trump-says-hell-appropriate-the-big-lie-to-refer-to-his-election-loss/|title=Trump Says He'll Appropriate 'The Big Lie' To Refer To His Election Loss|work=[[Forbes]]|date=May 3, 2021 |access-date=October 10, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;key&quot;&gt;{{cite web|last=Wolf|first=Zachary B.|url=https://cnn.com/2021/05/19/politics/donald-trump-big-lie-explainer/|title=The 5 key elements of Trump's Big Lie and how it came to be|work=[[CNN]]|date=May 19, 2021 |access-date=October 10, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Republican Party used Trump's false election narrative to justify the [[Republican efforts to restrict voting following the 2020 presidential election|imposition of new voting restrictions]] in its favor.&lt;ref name=&quot;key&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Balz|first=Dan|author-link=Dan Balz|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-big-lie-elections-impact/2021/05/29/d7992fa2-c07d-11eb-b26e-53663e6be6ff_story.html|title=The GOP push to revisit 2020 has worrisome implications for future elections|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=May 29, 2021 |access-date=June 18, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; As late as July 2022, Trump was still pressuring state legislators to overturn the 2020 election.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/21/us/politics/trump-wisconsin-election-call.html|title=Trump Recently Urged a Powerful Legislator to Overturn His 2020 Defeat in Wisconsin|last1=Bender|first1=Michael C.|author-link1=Michael C. Bender|last2=Epstein|first2=Reid J.|date=July 20, 2022|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=August 13, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; Unlike other former presidents, Trump continued to dominate his party; he has been described as a modern [[party boss]]. He continued fundraising, raising more than twice as much as the Republican Party itself, and profited from fundraisers many Republican candidates held at Mar-a-Lago. Much of his focus was on how elections are run and on ousting election officials who had resisted his attempts to overturn the 2020 election results. In the [[2022 midterm elections]] he endorsed over 200 candidates for various offices, [[2022 United States elections#Democracy|most of whom supported]] his false claim that the 2020 presidential election was stolen from him.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Goldmacher|first=Shane|title=Mar-a-Lago Machine: Trump as a Modern-Day Party Boss|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/17/us/politics/trump-mar-a-lago.html|access-date=July 31, 2022|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=April 17, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Paybarah|first=Azi|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/02/us/politics/trump-endorsements-midterm-primary-election.html|title=Where Trump's Endorsement Record Stands Halfway through Primary Season|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=August 2, 2022|access-date=August 3, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;lat&quot;&gt;{{cite web|last1=Castleman|first1=Terry|last2=Mason|first2=Melanie|url=https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2022-05-03/trump-endorsements-2022-election|title=Tracking Trump's endorsement record in the 2022 primary elections|work=[[Los Angeles Times]]|date=August 5, 2022|access-date=August 6, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Business activities === In February 2021, Trump registered a new company, [[Trump Media &amp; Technology Group]] (TMTG), for providing &quot;social networking services&quot; to U.S. customers.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Lyons |first=Kim|url=https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/6/22820389/sec-trump-spac-deal-investigation-truth-social-media-platform-public|title=SEC investigating Trump SPAC deal to take his social media platform public |work=[[The Verge]] |date=December 6, 2021 |access-date=December 30, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/company/1934403D:US|title=Trump Media &amp; Technology Group Corp |work=[[Bloomberg News]] |access-date=December 30, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; In March 2024, TMTG merged with [[special-purpose acquisition company]] [[Digital World Acquisition Corp.|Digital World Acquisition]] and became a [[public company]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Harwell |first=Drew|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/03/25/truth-social-trump-media-stock-market-billions/|title=Trump Media soars in first day of public tradings|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]] |date=March 26, 2024 |access-date=March 28, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; In February 2022, TMTG launched [[Truth Social]], a social media platform.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Bhuyian|first=Johana|date=February 21, 2022|title=Donald Trump's social media app launches on Apple store|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/21/donald-trumps-social-media-app-truth-social-launches-on-apple-store|access-date=May 7, 2023|work=[[The Guardian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; {{as of|2023|3|lc=n}}, Trump Media, which had taken $8&amp;nbsp;million from Russia-connected entities, was being investigated by federal prosecutors for possible money laundering.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Lowell|first=Hugo|date=March 15, 2023|title=Federal investigators examined Trump Media for possible money laundering, sources say|work=[[The Guardian]]|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/15/trump-media-investigated-possible-money-laundering|access-date=April 5, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Durkee |first=Alison |title=Trump's Media Company Reportedly Under Federal Investigation For Money Laundering Linked To Russia |url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2023/03/15/trumps-media-company-reportedly-under-federal-investigation-for-money-laundering-linked-to-russia/ |date=March 15, 2023 |access-date=March 15, 2023 |website=[[Forbes]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Investigations, criminal indictments and convictions, civil lawsuits === Trump is [[List of United States presidential firsts|the only U.S. president or former president]] to be convicted of a crime and the first major-party candidate to run for president after a felony conviction.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Roebuck|first=Jeremy|url=https://www.inquirer.com/news/nation-world/donald-trump-guilty-verdict-what-next-prison-election-20240530.html|title=Donald Trump conviction: Will he go to prison? Can he still run for president? What happens now?|work=[[Philadelphia Inquirer]]|date=May 30, 2024|access-date=June 1, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; As of May 2024, he faces numerous criminal charges and civil cases.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Sisak|first=Michael R.|url=https://apnews.com/projects/trump-investigations-civil-criminal-tracker/|title=Trump Investigations|work=[[AP News]]|date=May 30, 2024|access-date=June 1, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/us/trump-investigations-charges-indictments.html|title=Keeping Track of the Trump Criminal Cases|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=May 30, 2024|access-date=June 1, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== FBI investigations ==== {{Main|FBI investigation into Donald Trump's handling of government documents|FBI search of Mar-a-Lago|Smith special counsel investigation}} [[File:Classified intelligence material found during search of Mar-a-Lago.jpg|thumb|Classified intelligence material found during search of Mar-a-Lago]] When Trump left the White House in January 2021, he took government materials with him to Mar-a-Lago. By May 2021, the [[National Archives and Records Administration]] (NARA) realized that important documents had not been turned over to them and asked his office to locate them. In January 2022, they retrieved 15 boxes of White House records from Mar-a-Lago. NARA later informed the Department of Justice that some of the retrieved documents were classified material.&lt;ref name=&quot;cnn-tl&quot;&gt;{{cite web|last1=Lybrand|first1=Holmes|last2=Cohen|first2=Marshall|last3=Rabinowitz|first3=Hannah|url=https://cnn.com/2022/08/09/politics/doj-investigation-trump-documents-timeline/|title=Timeline: The Justice Department criminal inquiry into Trump taking classified documents to Mar-a-Lago|work=[[CNN]]|date=August 12, 2022|access-date=August 14, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Justice Department began an investigation&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Montague|first1=Zach|last2=McCarthy|first2=Lauren|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/12/us/politics/trump-classified-records-timeline.html|title=The Timeline Related to the F.B.I.'s Search of Mar-a-Lago|date=August 9, 2022|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=August 14, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; and sent Trump a subpoena for additional material.&lt;ref name=&quot;cnn-tl&quot;/&gt; Justice Department officials visited Mar-a-Lago and received some classified documents from Trump's lawyers,&lt;ref name=&quot;cnn-tl&quot;/&gt; one of whom signed a statement affirming that all material marked as classified had been returned.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/13/us/politics/trump-classified-material-fbi.html|title=Trump Lawyer Told Justice Dept. That Classified Material Had Been Returned|last1=Haberman|first1=Maggie|author-link1=Maggie Haberman|last2=Thrush|first2=Glenn|author-link2=Glenn Thrush|date=August 13, 2022|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=August 14, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; On August&amp;nbsp;8, 2022, FBI agents searched Mar-a-Lago to recover government documents and material Trump had taken with him when he left office in violation of the [[Presidential Records Act]],&lt;ref name=&quot;bddj0812&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT-20220812&quot;/&gt; reportedly including some related to nuclear weapons.&lt;ref name=&quot;nuclear&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Barrett|first1=Devlin|last2=Dawsey|first2=Josh|author-link2=Josh Dawsey|last3=Stein|first3=Perry|last4=Harris|first4=Shane|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/08/11/garland-trump-mar-a-lago/|title=FBI searched Trump's home to look for nuclear documents and other items, sources say|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=August 12, 2022 |access-date=August 12, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; The search warrant indicates an investigation of potential violations of the Espionage Act and obstruction of justice laws.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Swan|first1=Betsy|author-link1=Betsy Woodruff Swan|last2=Cheney|first2=Kyle|author-link2=Kyle Cheney (journalist)|last3=Wu|first3=Nicholas|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/12/search-warrant-shows-trump-under-investigation-for-potential-obstruction-of-justice-espionage-act-violations-00051507|title=FBI search warrant shows Trump under investigation for potential obstruction of justice, Espionage Act violations|work=[[Politico]]|date=August 12, 2022|access-date=August 12, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; The items taken in the search included 11 sets of classified documents, four of them tagged as &quot;top secret&quot; and one as &quot;top secret/SCI&quot;, the highest level of classification.&lt;ref name=&quot;bddj0812&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Barrett|first1=Devlin|last2=Dawsey|first2=Josh|author-link2=Josh Dawsey|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/08/12/trump-warrant-release/|title=Agents at Trump's Mar-a-Lago seized 11 sets of classified documents, court filing shows|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=August 12, 2022|access-date=August 12, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT-20220812&quot;&gt;{{cite web|last1=Haberman|first1=Maggie|author-link1=Maggie Haberman|last2=Thrush|first2=Glenn|author-link2=Glenn Thrush|last3=Savage|first3=Charlie|author-link3=Charlie Savage (author)|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/12/us/trump-espionage-act-laws-fbi.html|title=Files Seized From Trump Are Part of Espionage Act Inquiry|date=August 12, 2022|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=August 13, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; On November&amp;nbsp;18, 2022, U.S. attorney general [[Merrick Garland]] appointed federal prosecutor [[Jack Smith (lawyer)|Jack Smith]] as a [[special counsel]] to oversee the federal criminal investigations into Trump retaining government property at Mar-a-Lago and [[United States Justice Department investigation into attempts to overturn the 2020 presidential election|examining Trump's role in the events leading up to the Capitol attack]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Thrush|first1=Glenn|author-link1=Glenn Thrush|last2=Savage|first2=Charlie|author-link2=Charlie Savage (author)|last3=Haberman|first3=Maggie|author-link3=Maggie Haberman|last4=Feuer|first4=Alan|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/18/us/politics/trump-special-counsel-garland.html|title=Garland Names Special Counsel for Trump Inquiries|date=November 18, 2022|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=November 19, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Tucker|first1=Eric|last2=Balsamo|first2=Michael|url=https://apnews.com/article/politics-donald-trump-merrick-garland-government-and-550c01de053c08db4d53ca57f315feb6|title=Garland names special counsel to lead Trump-related probes|date=November 18, 2022|work=[[AP News]]|access-date=November 19, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Criminal referral by the House January 6 Committee ==== {{Main|United States House Select Committee on the January 6 Attack}} On December&amp;nbsp;19, 2022, the [[United States House Select Committee on the January&amp;nbsp;6 Attack]] recommended criminal charges against Trump for [[obstructing an official proceeding]], conspiracy to defraud the United States, and inciting or assisting an insurrection.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|first=Alan|last=Feuer|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/19/us/politics/jan-6-trump-justice-dept.html|title=It's Unclear Whether the Justice Dept. Will Take Up the Jan. 6 Panel's Charges|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=December 19, 2022|access-date=March 25, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Federal and state criminal indictments ==== {{Main|Federal prosecution of Donald Trump (classified documents case)|Federal prosecution of Donald Trump (election obstruction case)|Georgia election racketeering prosecution}} In December 2022, following a jury trial, the Trump Organization was [[New York investigations of the Trump Organization#Criminal investigation|convicted on 17 counts]] of criminal tax fraud, conspiracy, and falsifying business records in connection with a tax-fraud scheme stretching over 15 years. In January 2023, the organization was fined the maximum $1.6&amp;nbsp;million, and its chief financial officer [[Allen Weisselberg]] was sentenced to jail and probation after a plea deal. Trump was not personally charged in the case.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Scannell|first1=Kara|last2=del Valle|first2=Lauren|url=https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/06/politics/trump-organization-fraud-trial-verdict/index.html|work=[[CNN]]|title=Trump Organization found guilty on all counts of criminal tax fraud|date=December 6, 2022|access-date=September 3, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Sisek|first=Michael R.|title=Trump Organization fined $1.6 million for tax fraud|url=https://apnews.com/article/politics-legal-proceedings-new-york-city-donald-trump-manhattan-e2f1d01525dafb64be8738c8b4f32085|work=[[AP News]]|date=January 13, 2023|access-date=September 3, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; In June 2023, following a [[Smith special counsel investigation|special counsel investigation]], a [[federal grand jury]] in Miami indicted Trump on 31 counts of &quot;willfully retaining national defense information&quot; under the [[Espionage Act]], one count of [[making false statements]], and one count each of conspiracy to obstruct justice, withholding government documents, corruptly concealing records, concealing a document in a federal investigation and scheming to conceal their efforts.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Barrett|first1=Devlin|last2=Dawsey|first2=Josh|author-link2=Josh Dawsey|last3=Stein|first3=Perry|last4=Alemany|first4=Jacqueline|author-link4=Jacqueline Alemany|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/09/trump-tape-classified-documents/|title=Trump Put National Secrets at Risk, Prosecutors Say in Historic Indictment|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 9, 2023|access-date=June 10, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; He pleaded not guilty.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Greve|first1=Joan E.|last2=Lowell|first2=Hugo|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/13/trump-arraignment-not-guilty-charges-mar-a-lago-documents-court|title=Trump pleads not guilty to 37 federal criminal counts in Mar-a-Lago case|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=June 14, 2023|access-date=June 14, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; A superseding indictment the following month added three charges.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=5 revelations from new Trump charges |first=Zach |last=Schonfeld |url=https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4124168-revelations-from-new-trump-charges/ |access-date=August 4, 2023 |work=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]]|date=July 28, 2023 }}&lt;/ref&gt; The judge assigned to the case, [[Aileen Cannon]], was appointed to the bench by Trump and had previously issued rulings favorable to him in a [[Trump v. United States (2022)|past civil case]], some of which were overturned by an appellate court.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/09/us/politics/trump-documents-judge-aileen-cannon.html|title=A Trump-Appointed Judge Who Showed Him Favor Gets the Documents Case|newspaper=[[The New York Times]]|date=June 9, 2023 |first=Charlie |last=Savage |author-link=Charlie Savage (author)}}&lt;/ref&gt; She moved slowly on the case, indefinitely postponed the trial in May 2024, and dismissed it on July 15, ruling that the special counsel's appointment was unconstitutional.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Tucker|first=Eric|url=https://apnews.com/article/trump-classified-documents-smith-c66d5ffb7ba86c1b991f95e89bdeba0c|title=Federal judge dismisses Trump classified documents case over concerns with prosecutor's appointment|work=[[AP News]]|date=July 15, 2024|access-date=July 15, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; On August&amp;nbsp;26, Special Counsel Smith appealed the dismissal.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Mallin|first=Alexander|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/26/us/politics/trump-documents-appeal-jack-smith.html|title=Prosecutors Appeal Dismissal of Trump Documents Case|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=August 26, 2024|access-date=August 27, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; On August&amp;nbsp;1, 2023, a Washington, D.C., federal grand jury indicted Trump for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. He was charged with conspiring to [[Conspiracy against the United States|defraud the U.S.]], obstruct the certification of the Electoral College vote, and [[conspiracy against rights|deprive voters of the civil right]] to have their votes counted, and [[obstructing an official proceeding]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Barrett|first1=Devlin|last2=Hsu|first2=Spencer S.|last3=Stein|first3=Perry|last4=Dawsey|first4=Josh|author-link4=Josh Dawsey|last5=Alemany|first5=Jacqueline|author-link5=Jacqueline Alemany|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/08/01/trump-indictment-jan-6-2020-election/|title=Trump charged in probe of Jan. 6, efforts to overturn 2020 election|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=August 2, 2023|access-date=August 2, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump pleaded not guilty.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Sneed|first1=Tierney|last2=Rabinowitz|first2=Hannah|last3=Polantz|first3=Katelyn|last4=Lybrand|first4=Holmes|url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/03/politics/arraignment-trump-election-interference-indictment/index.html|title=Donald Trump pleads not guilty to January 6-related charges|work=[[CNN]]|date=August 3, 2023|access-date=August 3, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Later in August, a [[Fulton County, Georgia]], grand jury indicted Trump on 13 charges, including racketeering, for his efforts to subvert the election outcome in Georgia; multiple Trump campaign officials were also indicted.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Lowell|first1=Hugo|last2=Wicker|first2=Jewel|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/14/donald-trump-georgia-indictment-2020-election|title=Donald Trump and allies indicted in Georgia over bid to reverse 2020 election loss|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=August 15, 2023|access-date=December 22, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Drenon|first=Brandon|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66503668|title=What are the charges in Trump's Georgia indictment?|work=[[BBC News]]|date=August 25, 2023|access-date=December 22, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump surrendered, [[Mug shot of Donald Trump|was processed]] at Fulton County Jail, and was released on bail pending trial.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Pereira|first1=Ivan|last2=Barr|first2=Luke|url=https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-mug-shot-released-georgia-sheriffs-office/story?id=102544727|title=Trump mug shot released by Fulton County Sheriff's Office|work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]|date=August 25, 2023|access-date=August 25, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; He pleaded not guilty.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Rabinowitz|first=Hannah|url=https://edition.cnn.com/2023/08/31/politics/trump-not-guilty-plea-fulton-county/index.html|title=Trump pleads not guilty in Georgia election subversion case|work=[[CNN]]|date=August 31, 2023|access-date=August 31, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; On March&amp;nbsp;13, 2024, the judge dismissed three of the 13 charges against Trump.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Bailey|first=Holly|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/13/trump-georgia-election-case-charges-dropped/|title=Georgia judge dismisses six charges in Trump election interference case|date=March 13, 2024|access-date=March 14, 2024|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Criminal conviction in the 2016 campaign fraud case ==== {{Main|Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York|Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal}} {{See also|Personal and business legal affairs of Donald Trump#Payments related to alleged affairs|Karen McDougal#Alleged affair with Donald Trump}} During the 2016 presidential election campaign, [[American Media, Inc.]] (AMI), publisher of the ''[[National Enquirer]]'',&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Ellison|first1=Sarah|author-link1=Sarah Ellison|last2=Farhi|first2=Paul|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/publisher-of-the-national-enquirer-admits-to-hush-money-payments-made-on-trumps-behalf/2018/12/12/ebf24b76-fe49-11e8-83c0-b06139e540e5_story.html|title=Publisher of the National Enquirer admits to hush-money payments made on Trump's behalf|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=December 12, 2018|access-date=January 17, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; and a company set up by Cohen paid ''[[Playboy]]'' model [[Karen McDougal]] and adult film actress [[Stormy Daniels]] for keeping silent about their alleged affairs with Trump between 2006 and 2007.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/08/21/how-the-campaign-finance-charges-against-michael-cohen-may-implicate-trump|title=How the campaign finance charges against Michael Cohen implicate Trump|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|first=Philip|last=Bump|date=August 21, 2018|access-date=July 25, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; Cohen pleaded guilty in 2018 to breaking campaign finance laws, saying he had arranged both payments at Trump's direction to influence the presidential election.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://apnews.com/article/74aaf72511d64fceb1d64529207bde64|title=Cohen pleads guilty, implicates Trump in hush-money scheme|last1=Neumeister|first1=Larry|last2=Hays|first2=Tom|date=August 22, 2018|access-date=October 7, 2021|work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump denied the affairs and said he was not aware of Cohen's payment to Daniels, but he reimbursed him in 2017.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/07/trump-stormy-daniels-payment-444133|title=White House on Stormy Daniels: Trump 'denied all these allegations'|last=Nelson|first=Louis|date=March 7, 2018|work=[[Politico]]|access-date=March 16, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-insists-he-learned-of-michael-cohen-payments-later-on-in-fox-friends-exclusive|title=Trump insists he learned of Michael Cohen payments 'later on', in 'Fox &amp; Friends' exclusive|last=Singman|first=Brooke|access-date=August 23, 2018|work=[[Fox News]]|date=August 22, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; Federal prosecutors asserted that Trump had been involved in discussions regarding nondisclosure payments as early as 2014.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/federal-prosecutors-recommend-substantial-prison-term-for-former-trump-lawyer-michael-cohen/2018/12/07/e144f248-f7f3-11e8-8c9a-860ce2a8148f_story.html|title=Court filings directly implicate Trump in efforts to buy women's silence, reveal new contact between inner circle and Russian|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|last1=Barrett|first1=Devlin|last2=Zapotosky|first2=Matt|date=December 7, 2018|access-date=December 7, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; Court documents showed that the FBI believed Trump was directly involved in the payment to Daniels, based on calls he had with Cohen in October 2016.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-cohen/documents-detail-trump-teams-efforts-to-arrange-payment-to-porn-star-idUSKCN1UD18D|title=FBI documents point to Trump role in hush money for porn star Daniels|last1=Allen|first1=Jonathan|last2=Stempel|first2=Jonathan|work=[[Reuters]]|date=July 18, 2019|access-date=July 22, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://apnews.com/article/2d4138abfd0b4e71a63c94d3203e435a|title=Records detail frenetic effort to bury stories about Trump|last=Mustian|first=Jim|work=[[AP News]]|date=July 19, 2019|access-date=July 22, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; Federal prosecutors closed the investigation in 2019,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|work=[[AP News]]|date=July 19, 2019|access-date=October 7, 2021|first=Jim|last=Mustian|title=Why no hush-money charges against Trump? Feds are silent|url=https://apnews.com/article/0543a381b39a42d09c27567274477983}}&lt;/ref&gt; but in 2021, the [[Attorney General of New York|New York State Attorney General's Office]] and [[Manhattan District Attorney's Office]] opened a criminal investigations into Trump's business activities.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Harding|first1=Luke|last2=Holpuch|first2=Amanda|date=May 19, 2021|title=New York attorney general opens criminal investigation into Trump Organization|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/19/new-york-investigation-into-trump-organization-now-criminal-says-attorney-general|work=[[The Guardian]] |access-date=May 19, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Manhattan DA's Office subpoenaed the Trump Organization and AMI for records related to the payments&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/01/nyregion/trump-cohen-stormy-daniels-vance.html|title=Manhattan D.A. Subpoenas Trump Organization Over Stormy Daniels Hush Money|first1=Ben|last1=Protess|first2=William K.|last2=Rashbaum|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=August 1, 2019|access-date=August 2, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt; and Trump and the Trump Organization for eight years of tax returns.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=September 16, 2019|first1=William K.|last1=Rashbaum|first2=Ben|last2=Protess|title=8 Years of Trump Tax Returns Are Subpoenaed by Manhattan D.A.|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/16/nyregion/trump-tax-returns-cy-vance.html|access-date=October 7, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; In March 2023, a New York grand jury indicted Trump on 34 felony counts of [[falsifying business records]] to book the hush money payments to Daniels as business expenses, in an attempt to influence the 2016 election.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Barrett|first=Devlin|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/29/jurors-must-be-unanimous-convict-trump-can-disagree-underlying-crimes/|title=Jurors must be unanimous to convict Trump, can disagree on underlying crimes|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=May 29, 2024|access-date=June 15, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Scannell|first1=Kara|last2=Miller|first2=John|last3=Herb|first3=Jeremy|last4=Cole|first4=Devan|url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/30/politics/donald-trump-indictment/index.html|title=Donald Trump indicted by Manhattan grand jury on 34 counts related to fraud|work=[[CNN]]|date=March 31, 2023|access-date=April 1, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Marimow|first=Ann E.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/04/04/trump-charges-34-counts-felony/|title=Here are the 34 charges against Trump and what they mean|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=April 4, 2023|access-date=April 5, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; The trial began in April 2024, and in May a jury convicted Trump on all 34 counts.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last1=Reiss|first1=Adam|last2=Grumbach|first2=Gary|last3=Gregorian|first3=Dareh|last4=Winter|first4=Tom|last5=Frankel|first5=Jillian|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/donald-trump-verdict-hush-money-trial-rcna152492|title=Donald Trump found guilty in historic New York hush money case |work=[[NBC News]]|date=May 30, 2024|access-date=May 31, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; Sentencing is set for November&amp;nbsp;26, 2024.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last1=Reiss|first1=Adam|last2=Jarrett|first2=Laura|last3=Gregorian|first3=Dareh|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/judge-delays-trump-sentencing-hush-money-case-november-rcna167282|title=Judge delays Trump sentencing in hush money case until after November election|work=[[NBC News]]|date=September 7, 2024|access-date=September 7, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Civil judgments ==== {{Main|New York business fraud lawsuit against the Trump Organization|E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump}} In September 2022, the attorney general of New York filed a civil fraud case against Trump, his three oldest children, and the Trump Organization.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Scannell|first1=Kara|title=New York attorney general files civil fraud lawsuit against Trump, some of his children and his business|url=https://cnn.com/2022/09/21/politics/trump-new-york-attorney-general-letitia-james-fraud-lawsuit/index.html|access-date=September 21, 2022|work=[[CNN]]|date=September 21, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; During the investigation leading up to the lawsuit, Trump was fined $110,000 for failing to turn over records subpoenaed by the attorney general.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]|last=Katersky|first=Aaron|url=https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-upholds-fine-imposed-trump-failure-comply-subpoena/story?id=97195194|title=Court upholds fine imposed on Trump over his failure to comply with subpoena|date=February 14, 2023|access-date=April 8, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; In an August 2022 [[Deposition (law)|deposition]], Trump invoked his [[Self-incrimination clause|Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination]] more than 400 times.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Bromwich|first1=Jonah E.|last2=Protess|first2=Ben|last3=Rashbaum|first3=William K.|date=August 10, 2022|title=Trump Invokes Fifth Amendment, Attacking Legal System as Troubles Mount|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/10/nyregion/trump-james-deposition-fifth-amendment.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=August 11, 2011}}&lt;/ref&gt; The presiding judge ruled in September 2023 that Trump, his adult sons and the Trump Organization repeatedly committed fraud and ordered their New York business certificates canceled and their business entities sent into receivership for dissolution.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Kates |first1=Graham |title=Donald Trump and his company &quot;repeatedly&quot; violated fraud law, New York judge rules |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-company-violated-fraud-law-new-york-judge-rules/ |work=[[CBS News]] |date=September 26, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; In February 2024, the court found Trump liable, ordered him to pay a penalty of more than $350&amp;nbsp;million plus interest, for a total exceeding $450&amp;nbsp;million, and barred him from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or legal entity for three years. Trump said he would appeal the verdict. The judge also ordered the company to be overseen by the monitor appointed by the court in 2023 and an independent director of compliance, and that any &quot;restructuring and potential dissolution&quot; would be the decision of the monitor.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Bromwich|first1=Jonah E.|last2=Protess|first2=Ben|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/nyregion/trump-civil-fraud-trial-ruling.html|title=Trump Fraud Trial Penalty Will Exceed $450 Million|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=February 17, 2024|access-date=February 17, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; In May 2023, a New York jury in a federal lawsuit brought by journalist [[E. Jean Carroll]] in 2022 (&quot;Carroll II&quot;) found Trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation and ordered him to pay her $5&amp;nbsp;million.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Sullivan|first1=Becky|last2=Bernstein|first2=Andrea|last3=Marritz|first3=Ilya|last4=Lawrence|first4=Quil|title=A jury finds Trump liable for battery and defamation in E. Jean Carroll trial|url=https://www.npr.org/2023/05/09/1174975870/trump-carroll-verdict|work=[[NPR]]|date=May 9, 2023|access-date=May 10, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump asked for a new trial or a reduction of the award, arguing that the jury had not found him liable for rape. He also separately countersued Carroll for defamation. The judge for the two lawsuits ruled against Trump,&lt;ref name=&quot;bid&quot;&gt;{{cite web|last=Orden|first=Erica|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/19/trump-loses-bid-new-trial-carroll-00107025|title=Trump loses bid for new trial in E. Jean Carroll case|work=[[Politico]]|date=July 19, 2023|access-date=August 13, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Scannell |first=Kara |date=August 7, 2023 |title=Judge dismisses Trump's defamation lawsuit against Carroll for statements she made on CNN |url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/07/politics/e-jean-carroll-trump-defamation-lawsuit-dismissed/index.html |access-date=August 7, 2023 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; writing that Carroll's accusation of &quot;rape&quot; is &quot;substantially true&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;Reiss_Gregorian_8/7/2023&quot;&gt;{{cite web|last1=Reiss|first1=Adam|last2=Gregorian|first2=Dareh|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/judge-tosses-trumps-counterclaim-e-jean-carroll-finding-rape-claim-sub-rcna98577|title=Judge tosses Trump's counterclaim against E. Jean Carroll, finding rape claim is 'substantially true'|work=[[NBC News]]|date=August 7, 2023|access-date=August 13, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump appealed both decisions.&lt;ref name=&quot;bid&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Stempel|first=Jonathan|url=https://www.reuters.com/legal/trump-appeals-dismissal-defamation-claim-against-e-jean-carroll-2023-08-10/|title=Trump appeals dismissal of defamation claim against E. Jean Carroll|work=[[Reuters]]|date=August 10, 2023|access-date=August 17, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; In January 2024, the jury in the defamation case brought by Carroll in 2019 (&quot;Carroll I&quot;) ordered Trump to pay Carroll $83.3&amp;nbsp;million in damages. In March, Trump posted a $91.6&amp;nbsp;million bond and appealed.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Kates|first=Graham|url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-posts-bond-e-jean-carroll-case-91-million/|title=Trump posts $91 million bond to appeal E. Jean Carroll defamation verdict|work=[[CBS News]]|date=March 8, 2024|access-date=April 8, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Election of 2024 == {{Main|Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign}} {{Further|2024 Republican Party presidential primaries|2024 United States presidential election|Second presidential transition of Donald Trump}} {{See also|Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania}} [[File:Donald Trump (53951823882).jpg|thumb|left|Trump at a rally in Arizona, 2024]] On November&amp;nbsp;15, 2022, Trump announced his candidacy for the [[2024 United States presidential election|2024 presidential election]] and set up a fundraising account.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Arnsdorf |first1=Isaac |last2=Scherer |first2=Michael |author-link2=Michael Scherer |date=November 15, 2022 |title=Trump, who as president fomented an insurrection, says he is running again |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/15/trump-2024-announcement-running-president/ |access-date=December 5, 2022 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Schouten |first=Fredreka |date=November 16, 2022 |title=Questions about Donald Trump's campaign money, answered |url=https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/politics/donald-trump-war-chest-presidential-campaign/index.html |access-date=December 5, 2022 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In March 2023, the campaign began diverting 10&amp;nbsp;percent of the donations to his [[leadership PAC]]. His campaign had paid $100&amp;nbsp;million towards his legal bills by March 2024.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Goldmacher |first1=Shane |last2=Haberman |first2=Maggie |author-link2=Maggie Haberman |date=June 25, 2023 |title=As Legal Fees Mount, Trump Steers Donations Into PAC That Has Covered Them |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/25/us/politics/trump-donations-legal-fees.html |access-date=June 25, 2023 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Escobar |first1=Molly Cook |last2=Sun |first2=Albert |last3=Goldmacher |first3=Shane |date=March 27, 2024 |title=How Trump Moved Money to Pay $100 Million in Legal Bills |url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/27/us/politics/trump-cases-legal-fund.html |access-date=April 3, 2024 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In December 2023, the Colorado Supreme Court ruled Trump disqualified for the Colorado Republican primary for his role in inciting the January&amp;nbsp;6, 2021, attack on Congress. In March 2024, the U.S. Supreme Court [[Trump v. Anderson|restored his name to the ballot]] in a unanimous decision, ruling that Colorado lacks the authority to enforce [[Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution#Section 3: Disqualification from office for insurrection or rebellion|Section 3 of the 14th Amendment]], which bars insurrectionists from holding federal office.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Levine |first=Sam |date=March 4, 2024 |title=Trump was wrongly removed from Colorado ballot, US supreme court rules |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/04/trump-scotus-colorado-ruling |access-date=June 23, 2024 |work=[[The Guardian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:20240524 Trump groundwork for election denial.svg|thumb|Trump's escalation of election rigging claims before the 2024 election&lt;ref name=&quot;NYTDoubts&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=Yourish |first1=Karen |last2=Smart |first2=Charlie |date=May 24, 2024 |title=Trump's Pattern of Sowing Election Doubt Intensifies in 2024 |url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/24/us/politics/trump-election-results-doubt.html |access-date=August 30, 2024 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;]] During the campaign, Trump made increasingly violent and authoritarian statements.&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT Authoritarian Bent&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=Bender |first1=Michael C. |author-link1=Michael C. Bender |last2=Gold |first2=Michael |date=November 20, 2023 |title=Trump's Dire Words Raise New Fears About His Authoritarian Bent |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/20/us/politics/trump-rhetoric-fascism.html |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Stone |first=Peter |date=November 22, 2023 |title='Openly authoritarian campaign': Trump's threats of revenge fuel alarm |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/22/trump-revenge-game-plan-alarm |work=[[The Guardian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Colvin |first1=Jill |last2=Barrow |first2=Bill |date=December 7, 2023 |title=Trump's vow to only be a dictator on 'day one' follows growing worry over his authoritarian rhetoric |url=https://apnews.com/article/trump-hannity-dictator-authoritarian-presidential-election-f27e7e9d7c13fabbe3ae7dd7f1235c72 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=LeVine |first=Marianne |date=November 12, 2023 |title=Trump calls political enemies 'vermin,' echoing dictators Hitler, Mussolini |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/12/trump-rally-vermin-political-opponents |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He also said that he would weaponize the FBI and the Justice Department against his political opponents&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Levine |first=Sam |date=November 10, 2023 |title=Trump suggests he would use FBI to go after political rivals if elected in 2024 |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/10/trump-fbi-rivals-2024-election |work=[[The Guardian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Vazquez |first=Maegan |date=November 10, 2023 |title=Trump says on Univision he could weaponize FBI, DOJ against his enemies |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/09/trump-interview-univision/ |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and use the military to go after Democratic politicians and those that do not support his candidacy.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Stracqualursi |first=Veronica |date=October 14, 2024 |title=Trump suggests using military against 'enemy from within' on Election Day |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/13/politics/trump-military-enemy-from-within-election-day/index.html |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Lerer 10152024&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=Lerer |first1=Lisa |last2=Gold |first2=Michael |date=October 15, 2024 |title=Trump Escalates Threats to Political Opponents He Deems the 'Enemy' |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/15/us/politics/trump-opponents-enemy-within.html |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He used harsher, more dehumanizing anti-immigrant rhetoric than during his presidency.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Gold |first1=Michael |last2=Huynh |first2=Anjali |date=April 2, 2024 |title=Trump Again Invokes 'Blood Bath' and Dehumanizes Migrants in Border Remarks |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/02/us/politics/trump-border-blood-bath.html |access-date=April 3, 2024 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Savage |first1=Charlie |author-link1=Charlie Savage (author) |last2=Haberman |first2=Maggie |author-link2=Maggie Haberman |last3=Swan |first3=Jonathan |author-link3=Jonathan Swan |date=November 11, 2023 |title=Sweeping Raids, Giant Camps and Mass Deportations: Inside Trump's 2025 Immigration Plans |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/11/us/politics/trump-2025-immigration-agenda.html |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Layne |first1=Nathan |last2=Slattery |first2=Gram |last3=Reid |first3=Tim |date=April 3, 2024 |title=Trump calls migrants 'animals', intensifying focus on illegal immigration |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-expected-highlight-murder-michigan-woman-immigration-speech-2024-04-02/ |access-date=April 3, 2024 |work=[[Reuters]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Philbrick |first1=Ian Prasad |last2=Bentahar |first2=Lyna |date=December 5, 2023 |title=Donald Trump's 2024 Campaign, in His Own Menacing Words |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/05/us/politics/trump-2024-president-campaign.html |access-date=May 10, 2024 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; His embrace of far-right extremism&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Baker |first=Peter |author-link=Peter Baker (journalist) |date=December 1, 2022 |title=Trump Embraces Extremism as He Seeks to Reclaim Office |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/01/us/politics/trump-extremism-candidacy.html |access-date=July 13, 2024 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Swenson |first1=Ali |last2=Kunzelman |first2=Michael |date=November 18, 2023 |title=Fears of political violence are growing as the 2024 campaign heats up and conspiracy theories evolve |url=https://apnews.com/article/depape-paul-pelosi-qanon-conspiracy-theories-violence-390ad310fa34b0edb925d88540a7ddcd |access-date=July 13, 2024 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and harsher rhetoric against his political enemies have been described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, [[Donald Trump and fascism|fascist]],{{Efn|name=Fascist|Attributed to multiple references:&lt;ref name=&quot;NYMag Never Sounded Like This&quot;&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/27/magazine/trump-rallies-rhetoric.html|title=Donald Trump Has Never Sounded Like This|work=[[The New York Times Magazine]]|date=April 27, 2024|access-date=April 27, 2024|last1=Homans|first1=Charles}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Vox Fascist&quot;&gt;{{cite news|title=When Trump tells you he's an authoritarian, believe him|url=https://www.vox.com/2023/11/14/23958866/trump-vermin-authoritarian-democracy|work=[[Vox (website)|Vox]]|date=November 14, 2023|last1=Bender|first1=Michael|author-link1=Michael C. Bender|last2=Gold|first2=Michael|access-date=December 8, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Axios Fascist&quot;&gt;{{cite news|title=Trump campaign defends &quot;vermin&quot; speech amid fascist comparisons|url=https://www.axios.com/2023/11/13/trump-vermin-fascist-language-speech|work=[[Axios (website)]]|date=November 13, 2023|last=Basu|first=Zachary|access-date=December 8, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;New Yorker Fascist&quot;&gt;{{cite magazine|last=Cassidy|first=John|author-link=John Cassidy (journalist)|date=November 14, 2023|title=Trump's Fascistic Rhetoric Only Emphasizes the Stakes in 2024|url=https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/trumps-fascistic-rhetoric-only-emphasizes-the-stakes-in-2024|magazine=[[The New Yorker]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/br&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Vanity Fair Fascist&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Lutz|first=Eric|date=November 10, 2023|title=Donald Trump Isn't Even Trying to Hide His Authoritarian Second-Term Plans|url=https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/11/donald-trump-authoritarian-second-term|work=[[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]]|access-date=December 8, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;The Atlantic Fascist&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last=Browning|first=Christopher R.|author-link=Christopher R. Browning|date=July 25, 2023|title=A New Kind of Fascism|url=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/07/trump-second-term-isolationist-fascism/674791/|work=[[The Atlantic]]|access-date=December 8, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;ABC News Vermin&quot;&gt;{{cite news|title=Trump compares political opponents to 'vermin' who he will 'root out,' alarming historians|url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-compares-political-opponents-vermin-root-alarming-historians/story?id=104847748|work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]|date=November 13, 2023|last1=Kim|first1=Soo Rin|last2=Ibssa|first2=Lalee|access-date=December 8, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last=Ward|first=Myah|date=October 12, 2024|title=We watched 20 Trump rallies. His racist, anti-immigrant messaging is getting darker.|work=[[Politico]]|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/12/trump-racist-rhetoric-immigrants-00183537|access-date=October 12, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Applebaum18&quot;&gt;{{Cite news|last=Applebaum|first=Anne|author-link=Anne Applebaum|date=October 18, 2024|title=Trump Is Speaking Like Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini|work=[[The Atlantic]]|url=https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/10/trump-authoritarian-rhetoric-hitler-mussolini/680296/|access-date=October 18, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last=Rubin|first=April|date=October 11, 2024|title=Trump's top general calls former president &quot;fascist&quot; and &quot;dangerous&quot; threat|work=[[Axios (website)]]|url=https://www.axios.com/2024/10/11/mark-milley-trump-fascist-bob-woodward-book|access-date=October 19, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Cramer|first=Ruby|title=Trump is 'fascist to the core,' Milley says in Woodward book|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/10/12/mark-milley-donald-trump-fascist/|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=October 12, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Miller|first=Tim|title=Mattis Told Woodward He Agreed Trump Was a Uniquely Dangerous Threat|url=https://www.thebulwark.com/p/mattis-told-woodward-he-agreed-trump|work=[[The Bulwark (website)]]|date=October 17, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Bradner |first1=Eric |title=Trump's former chief of staff says he fits 'fascist' definition and prefers 'dictator approach'|url=https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/22/politics/trump-fascist-john-kelly/index.html|work=[[CNN]]|date=October 22, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} and unlike anything a political candidate has ever said in American history.&lt;ref name=&quot;NYMag Never Sounded Like This&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Lerer 10152024&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Applebaum18&quot; /&gt; [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump|Age and health concerns]] also arose during the campaign, with several medical experts cited by ''The New York Times'' highlighting an increase in rambling, [[tangential speech]] and [[Disinhibition|behavioral disinhibition]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Baker |first1=Peter |author-link1=Peter Baker (journalist) |last2=Freedman |first2=Dylan |date=October 6, 2024 |title=Trump's Speeches, Increasingly Angry and Rambling, Reignite the Question of Age |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/06/us/politics/trump-speeches-age-cognitive-decline.html |access-date=November 6, 2024 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump mentioned &quot;rigged election&quot; and &quot;election interference&quot; earlier and more frequently than in the 2016 and 2020 campaigns and refused to commit to accepting the 2024 election results.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Lane |first1=Nathan |last2=Ulmer |first2=Alexandra |date=May 16, 2024 |title=Trump, allies are laying the groundwork to contest potential election loss |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-allies-are-laying-groundwork-contest-potential-election-loss-2024-05-16/ |access-date=September 12, 2024 |work=[[Reuters]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;NYTDoubts&quot; /&gt; Analysts for ''The New York Times'' described this as an intensification of his &quot;heads I win; tails you cheated&quot; rhetorical strategy; the paper said the claim of a rigged election had become the backbone of the campaign.&lt;ref name=&quot;NYTDoubts&quot; /&gt; On July&amp;nbsp;13, 2024, Trump's ear was grazed by a bullet&lt;ref name=&quot;Browne-2024&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Browne |first1=Malachy |last2=Lum |first2=Devon |last3=Cardia |first3=Alexander |date=July 26, 2024 |title=Speculation Swirls About What Hit Trump. An Analysis Suggests It was a Bullet |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/26/us/politics/trump-shooter-bullet-trajectory-ear.html |access-date=July 29, 2024 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania|in an assassination attempt]] at a campaign rally in [[Butler Township, Butler County, Pennsylvania|Butler Township, Pennsylvania]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Hutchinson |first1=Bill |last2=Cohen |first2=Miles |date=July 16, 2024 |title=Gunman opened fire at Trump rally as witnesses say they tried to alert police |url=https://abcnews.go.com/US/witnesses-trump-assassination-attempt-gunman-roof-shooting/story?id=111947616 |access-date=July 17, 2024 |work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |date=July 14, 2024 |title=AP PHOTOS: Shooting at Trump rally in Pennsylvania |url=https://apnews.com/article/trump-rally-shooting-photo-gallery-561478b3f90c950c741eeaa24c6dc159 |access-date=July 23, 2024 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Two days later, the [[2024 Republican National Convention]] nominated him as their presidential candidate, with Senator [[JD Vance]] as his running mate.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Astor |first=Maggie |date=July 15, 2024 |title=What to Know About J.D. Vance, Trump's Running Mate |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/15/us/politics/who-is-jd-vance-trump-vp.html |access-date=July 15, 2024 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; On September 15, 2024, Trump was targeted in another [[Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida|assassination attempt in Florida]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Debusmann |first1=Bernd Jr |last2=Yousif |first2=Nadine |date=September 23, 2024 |title=Suspect described Trump 'assassination attempt' in pre-written note |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c89ly20vvgvo |access-date=November 21, 2024 |work=[[BBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump was elected the 47th president of the United States in November 2024, defeating the incumbent vice president Kamala Harris.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Election 2024: Latest News, Results and Analysis |url=https://apnews.com/hub/election-2024 |access-date=November 6, 2024 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He became the second president in U.S. history elected to serve nonconsecutive terms after former president [[Grover Cleveland]], who won reelection in [[1892 United States presidential election|1892]].&lt;ref name=&quot;TIH_1&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last=Treisman |first=R. |date=November 4, 2024 |title=Trump is hoping to win non-consecutive terms. Only one president has done it |url=https://www.npr.org/2024/11/04/g-s1-32048/grover-cleveland-trump-non-consecutive-terms |access-date=November 9, 2024 |publisher=[[NPR]] |quote=The first was Grover Cleveland, who did two stints in the White House from 1885-1889 and 1893-1897}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Associated Press]] and [[BBC News]] described it as an extraordinary comeback for a former president.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Gillespie |first=Tom |date=November 6, 2024 |title=Donald Trump wins US election in monumental political comeback |url=https://news.sky.com/story/donald-trump-wins-us-election-in-monumental-political-comeback-13249208 |access-date=November 6, 2024 |publisher=[[Sky News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Jubilation in the room as Trump declared victory |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czxreenxvw5o |access-date=November 6, 2024 |website=[[BBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;TPO_2&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=Sheerin |first1=Jude |last2=Murphy |first2=Matt |date=November 6, 2024 |title=Trump pulls off historic White House comeback |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62l5zdv7zko |access-date=November 9, 2024 |website=[[BBC]] |quote=Projections suggest he is likely to win the overall popular vote nationally}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;TWT_1&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=Miller |first1=Zeke |author-link1=Zeke Miller |last2=Price |first2=Michelle L. |last3=Weissert |first3=Will |last4=Colvin |first4=Jill |date=November 6, 2024 |title=Trump wins the White House in political comeback rooted in appeals to frustrated voters |url=https://apnews.com/article/election-day-trump-harris-white-house-83c8e246ab97f5b97be45cdc156af4e2 |access-date=November 9, 2024 |work=[[AP News]] |quote=an extraordinary comeback for a former president}}&lt;/ref&gt; Aged 78 at the time of the election, Trump is the oldest person to be elected U.S. president. He is the first Republican in two decades to secure the popular vote in the U.S. presidential elections.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |title=Donald Trump Becomes First Republican To Win Popular Vote In 20 Years |url=https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/2024-us-elections-donald-trump-set-to-become-first-republican-to-win-popular-vote-in-20-years-6955598 |access-date=November 6, 2024 |publisher=[[NDTV]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Assessments == === Public image === {{Main|Public image of Donald Trump}} {{See also|Donald Trump in popular culture}} Trump was the only president never to reach a 50&amp;nbsp;percent approval rating in the [[Gallup poll]], which dates to 1938, partially due to a record-high partisan gap in his approval ratings: 88&amp;nbsp;percent among Republicans and 7&amp;nbsp;percent among Democrats.&lt;ref name=&quot;Jones&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last=Jones |first=Jeffrey M. |date=January 18, 2021 |title=Last Trump Job Approval 34%; Average Is Record-Low 41% |url=https://news.gallup.com/poll/328637/last-trump-job-approval-average-record-low.aspx |access-date=October 3, 2021 |publisher=[[Gallup (company)|Gallup]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump's early ratings were unusually stable, ranging between 35 and 49&amp;nbsp;percent.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Klein |first=Ezra |author-link=Ezra Klein |date=September 2, 2020 |title=Can anything change Americans' minds about Donald Trump? The eerie stability of Trump's approval rating, explained. |url=https://www.vox.com/2020/9/2/21409364/trump-approval-rating-2020-election-voters-coronavirus-convention-polls |access-date=October 10, 2021 |work=[[Vox (website)|Vox]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; He finished his term with a rating between 29 and 34&amp;nbsp;percent—the lowest of any president since modern polling began—and a record-low average of 41&amp;nbsp;percent throughout his presidency.&lt;ref name=&quot;Jones&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Enten |first=Harry |date=January 16, 2021 |title=Trump finishes with worst first term approval rating ever |url=https://cnn.com/2021/01/16/politics/trump-approval-analysis/ |access-date=October 3, 2021 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In [[Gallup's most admired man and woman poll|Gallup's annual poll]] asking Americans to name the man they admire the most, Trump placed second to Obama in 2017 and 2018, tied with Obama for first in 2019, and placed first in 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |date=December 28, 2006 |title=Most Admired Man and Woman|url=https://news.gallup.com/poll/1678/most-admired-man-woman.aspx|access-date=October 3, 2021|work=[[Gallup (company)|Gallup]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Budryk|first=Zack|date=December 29, 2020 |title=Trump ends Obama's 12-year run as most admired man: Gallup |url=https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/531906-trump-ends-obamas-12-year-run-as-most-admired-man-gallup |access-date=December 31, 2020 |work=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Since [[Gallup (company)|Gallup]] started conducting the poll in 1946, Trump was the first elected president not to be named most admired in his first year in office.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Bach|first=Natash|date=December 28, 2017|title=Trump Is the Only Elected U.S. President Not to Be Named America's Most Admired Man In His First Year|url=https://fortune.com/2017/12/28/gallup-most-admired-man-and-woman-obama-clinton/|access-date=November 19, 2024|work=[[Fortune (magazine)]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; A Gallup poll in 134 countries comparing the approval ratings of U.S. leadership between 2016 and 2017 found that Trump led Obama in job approval in only 29 countries, most of them non-democracies;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Datta |first=Monti |date=September 16, 2019 |title=3 countries where Trump is popular |url=https://theconversation.com/3-countries-where-trump-is-popular-120317 |access-date=October 3, 2021 |work=[[The Conversation (website)|The Conversation]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; approval of U.S. leadership plummeted among allies and G7 countries. Overall ratings were similar to those in the last two years of the [[George W. Bush administration]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Rating World Leaders: 2018 The U.S. vs. Germany, China and Russia |url=https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000161-0647-da3c-a371-867f6acc0001 |access-date=October 3, 2021 |work=[[Gallup (company)|Gallup]]}} Page 9&lt;/ref&gt; By mid-2020, only 16&amp;nbsp;percent of international respondents to a 13-nation [[Pew Research]] poll expressed confidence in Trump, lower than China's [[Xi Jinping]] and Russia's [[Vladimir Putin]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Wike |first1=Richard |last2=Fetterolf |first2=Janell |last3=Mordecai |first3=Mara |date=September 15, 2020 |title=U.S. Image Plummets Internationally as Most Say Country Has Handled Coronavirus Badly |url=https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/09/15/us-image-plummets-internationally-as-most-say-country-has-handled-coronavirus-badly/ |access-date=December 24, 2020 |publisher=[[Pew Research Center]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Scholarly === {{Further|Historical rankings of presidents of the United States#2021 C-SPAN|}} In the [[C-SPAN]] &quot;Presidential Historians Survey 2021&quot;,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.c-span.org/presidentsurvey2021/|title=Presidential Historians Survey 2021|work=[[C-SPAN]] |access-date=June 30, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; historians ranked Trump as the fourth-worst president. He rated lowest in the leadership characteristics categories for moral authority and administrative skills.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last=Sheehey|first=Maeve|date=June 30, 2021|title=Trump debuts at 41st in C-SPAN presidential rankings|work=[[Politico]]|url=https://www.politico.com/news/2021/06/30/trump-cspan-president-ranking-497184 |access-date=March 31, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Brockell|first=Gillian|title=Historians just ranked the presidents. Trump wasn't last.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/06/30/presidential-rankings-2021-cspan-historians/ |access-date=July 1, 2021|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 30, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Siena College Research Institute]]'s 2022 survey [[Historical rankings of presidents of the United States#2022 Siena College|ranked Trump]] 43rd out of 45 presidents. He was ranked near the bottom in all categories except for luck, willingness to take risks, and party leadership, and he ranked last in several categories.&lt;ref name=&quot;scri_22&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=https://scri.siena.edu/2022/06/22/american-presidents-greatest-and-worst/|title=American Presidents: Greatest and Worst|work=[[Siena College Research Institute]]|date=June 22, 2022|access-date=July 11, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2018 and 2024, surveys of members of the [[American Political Science Association]] ranked Trump the worst president in American history.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Rottinghaus |first1=Brandon |last2=Vaughn |first2=Justin S. |date=February 19, 2018 |title=Opinion: How Does Trump Stack Up Against the Best—and Worst—Presidents? |url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/02/19/opinion/how-does-trump-stack-up-against-the-best-and-worst-presidents.html |access-date=July 13, 2024 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Chappell |first=Bill |date=February 19, 2024 |title=In historians' Presidents Day survey, Biden vs. Trump is not a close call |url=https://www.npr.org/2024/02/19/1232447088/historians-presidents-survey-trump-last-biden-14th |work=[[NPR]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Political practice and rhetoric == {{Further|Trumpism|Political positions of Donald Trump|Rhetoric of Donald Trump}} Beginning with his 2016 campaign, Trump's politics and rhetoric led to the creation of a [[political movement]] known as [[Trumpism]]. His political base has been compared to a [[Cult of personality#Donald Trump|cult of personality]].{{efn|name=Cult|Attributed to multiple sources:{{sfn|Sundahl|2022|loc=&quot;[In] a model for distinguishing between popularity and personality cults based on three parameters covering a representational and social practice dimension... Trump and Putin belong in the domain of personality cults&quot;}}{{sfn|Franks|Hesami|2021|loc=&quot;Results of the current study... may lend credence to accusations that some Trump supporters have a cult-like loyalty to the 45th president&quot;}}{{sfn|Adams|2021}}{{sfn|Reyes|2020}}{{sfn|Diamond|2023|loc=&quot;The cult of Trumpism fosters and exploits paranoia and allegiance to an all-powerful, charismatic figure, contributing to a social milieu at risk for the erosion of democratic principles and the rise of fascism&quot;}}{{sfn|Hassan|2019|p=xviii|loc=&quot;...Trump employs many of the same techniques as prominent cult leaders&quot;}}&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last=Ben-Ghiat|first=Ruth|author-link=Ruth Ben-Ghiat|date=December 19, 2020|title=Op-Ed: Trump's formula for building a lasting personality cult|url=https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-12-09/donald-trump-strongman-personality-cult|access-date=October 4, 2023|work=[[Los Angeles Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} Trump's political positions and rhetoric were described as [[right-wing populist]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/10/31/the-republican-party-has-lurched-towards-populism-and-illiberalism|title=The Republican Party has lurched towards populism and illiberalism|newspaper=[[The Economist]]|date=October 31, 2020|access-date=October 14, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Borger|first=Julian|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/26/republican-party-autocratic-hungary-turkey-study-trump|title=Republicans closely resemble autocratic parties in Hungary and Turkey – study|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=October 26, 2021|access-date=October 14, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Chotiner|first=Isaac|url=https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/redefining-populism|title=Redefining Populism|magazine=[[The New Yorker]]|date=July 29, 2021|access-date=October 14, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; ''[[Politico]]'' described them as &quot;eclectic, improvisational and often contradictory&quot;, quoting a health-care policy expert at the [[American Enterprise Institute]] as saying that his political positions were a &quot;random assortment of whatever plays publicly&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/will-the-real-donald-trump-please-stand-up-120607|title=Will the real Donald Trump please stand up?|last=Noah|first=Timothy|author-link=Timothy Noah|date=July 26, 2015|access-date=October 1, 2021|work=[[Politico]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[NBC News]] counted &quot;141 distinct shifts on 23 major issues&quot; during his campaign.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/full-list-donald-trump-s-rapidly-changing-policy-positions-n547801|title=A Full List of Donald Trump's Rapidly Changing Policy Positions|last=Timm|first=Jane C.|date=March 30, 2016|access-date=July 12, 2016|publisher=[[NBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump has a strong [[Trumpism#Christian Trumpism|appeal to evangelical Christian voters]]. He appeals to [[Christian nationalism#United States|Christian nationalists]], according to a 2021 study,{{sfn|Perry|Whitehead|Grubbs|2021}} and his rallies take on the symbols, rhetoric and agenda of Christian nationalism.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last=Peter|first=Smith|date=May 18, 2024|title=Jesus is their savior, Trump is their candidate. Ex-president's backers say he shares faith, values|url=https://apnews.com/article/trump-christian-evangelicals-conservatives-2024-election-43f25118c133170c77786daf316821c3|access-date=November 23, 2024|newspaper=The Associated Press|language=en|url-status=live|issn=0190-8286}}&lt;/ref&gt; Some evangelical Trump supporters see Trump as a divinly ordained &quot;chosen one&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Horton |first1=Michael |date=December 16, 2020 |title=The Cult of Christian Trumpism |work=[[The Gospel Coalition]] |url=https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/cult-Christian-trumpism/ |access-date=December 28, 2020 |author-link1=Michael Horton (theologian) |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Link to hate crimes ==== {{further|Rhetoric of Donald Trump#Violence and dehumanization}} Trump helped bring far-right fringe ideas and organizations into the mainstream.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Bierman|first=Noah|date=August 22, 2016|title=Donald Trump helps bring far-right media's edgier elements into the mainstream|work=[[Los Angeles Times]]|url=https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-media-20160820-snap-story.html|access-date=October 7, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; In August 2016, he hired [[Steve Bannon]], the executive chairman of ''[[Breitbart News]]''—described by Bannon as &quot;the platform for the alt-right&quot;—as his campaign CEO.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=Clickbait scoops and an engaged alt-right: everything to know about Breitbart News|url=https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/nov/15/breitbart-news-alt-right-stephen-bannon-trump-administration|access-date=November 18, 2016|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=November 15, 2016|first=Jason|last=Wilson}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[alt-right]] movement coalesced around and supported Trump's candidacy, due in part to its [[opposition to multiculturalism]] and [[Opposition to immigration|immigration]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Weigel|first=David|author-link=David Weigel|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/racial-realists-are-cheered-by-trumps-latest-strategy/2016/08/20/cd71e858-6636-11e6-96c0-37533479f3f5_story.html|title='Racialists' are cheered by Trump's latest strategy|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=August 20, 2016|access-date=June 23, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://cnn.com/2016/08/25/politics/alt-right-explained-hillary-clinton-donald-trump/|title=Clinton is attacking the 'Alt-Right' – What is it?|first=Gregory|last=Krieg|access-date=August 25, 2016|date=August 25, 2016|work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Pierce|first=Matt|title=Q&amp;A: What is President Trump's relationship with far-right and white supremacist groups?|url=https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-09-30/la-na-pol-2020-trump-white-supremacy|work=[[Los Angeles Times]]|date=September 20, 2020|access-date=October 7, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; Research suggests Trump's rhetoric is associated with an increased incidence of hate crimes.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Kunzelman |first1=Michael |last2=Galvan |first2=Astrid |date=August 7, 2019 |title=Trump words linked to more hate crime? Some experts think so |url=https://apnews.com/article/7d0949974b1648a2bb592cab1f85aa16 |access-date=October 7, 2021 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Feinberg |first1=Ayal |last2=Branton |first2=Regina |last3=Martinez-Ebers |first3=Valerie |date=March 22, 2019 |title=Analysis &amp;#124; Counties that hosted a 2016 Trump rally saw a 226 percent increase in hate crimes |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/22/trumps-rhetoric-does-inspire-more-hate-crimes/ |access-date=October 7, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; During his 2016 campaign, he urged or praised physical attacks against protesters or reporters.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=White |first=Daniel |date=February 1, 2016 |title=Donald Trump Tells Crowd To 'Knock the Crap Out Of' Hecklers |url=https://time.com/4203094/donald-trump-hecklers/ |access-date=August 9, 2019 |magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Koerner |first=Claudia |date=October 18, 2018 |title=Trump Thinks It's Totally Cool That A Congressman Assaulted A Journalist For Asking A Question |url=https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/claudiakoerner/trump-gianforte-congressman-assault-journalist-montana |access-date=October 19, 2018 |work=[[BuzzFeed News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Numerous defendants investigated or prosecuted for violent acts and hate crimes, including participants of the January&amp;nbsp;6, 2021, storming of the U.S. Capitol, cited Trump's rhetoric in arguing that they were not culpable or should receive leniency.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Tracy |first=Abigail |date=August 8, 2019 |title=&quot;The President of the United States Says It's Okay&quot;: The Rise of the Trump Defense |url=https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/08/donald-trump-domestic-terrorism-el-paso |access-date=October 7, 2021 |work=[[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Helderman |first1=Rosalind S. |author-link1=Rosalind S. Helderman |last2=Hsu |first2=Spencer S. |last3=Weiner |first3=Rachel |date=January 16, 2021 |title='Trump said to do so': Accounts of rioters who say the president spurred them to rush the Capitol could be pivotal testimony |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-rioters-testimony/2021/01/16/01b3d5c6-575b-11eb-a931-5b162d0d033d_story.html |access-date=September 27, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; A nationwide review by ABC News in May 2020 identified at least 54 criminal cases from August 2015 to April 2020 in which Trump was invoked in direct connection with violence or threats of violence mostly by white men and primarily against minorities.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Levine |first=Mike |date=May 30, 2020 |title='No Blame?' ABC News finds 54 cases invoking 'Trump' in connection with violence, threats, alleged assaults. |url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/blame-abc-news-finds-17-cases-invoking-trump/story?id=58912889 |access-date=February 4, 2021 |work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Truthfulness ==== {{Main|False or misleading statements by Donald Trump}} [[File:2017- Donald Trump veracity - composite graph.png|thumb|upright=1.5|[[Fact-checkers]] from ''The Washington Post'',&lt;ref name=&quot;database&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=Kessler |first1=Glenn |author-link1=Glenn Kessler (journalist) |last2=Kelly |first2=Meg |last3=Rizzo |first3=Salvador |last4=Lee |first4=Michelle Ye Hee |author-link4=Michelle Ye Hee Lee |date=January 20, 2021 |title=In four years, President Trump made 30,573 false or misleading claims |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-claims-database/ |access-date=October 11, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; the ''Toronto Star'',&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Dale |first=Daniel |author-link=Daniel Dale |date=June 5, 2019 |title=Donald Trump has now said more than 5,000 false things as president |url=https://www.thestar.com/news/world/analysis/2019/06/05/donald-trump-has-now-said-more-than-5000-false-claims-as-president.html |access-date=October 11, 2021 |work=[[Toronto Star]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and CNN&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Dale |first1=Daniel |author-link=Daniel Dale |last2=Subramiam |first2=Tara |date=March 9, 2020 |title=Fact check: Donald Trump made 115 false claims in the last two weeks of February |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/09/politics/fact-check-trump-false-claims-february/index.html |access-date=November 1, 2023 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; compiled data on &quot;false or misleading claims&quot; (orange background), and &quot;false claims&quot; (violet foreground), respectively.|alt=Chart depicting false or misleading claims made by Trump]] As a candidate and as president, Trump frequently made false statements in public remarks&lt;ref name=&quot;finnegan&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last=Finnegan |first=Michael |date=September 25, 2016 |title=Scope of Trump's falsehoods unprecedented for a modern presidential candidate |url=https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-false-statements-20160925-snap-story.html |access-date=October 10, 2021 |work=[[Los Angeles Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;whoppers&quot;/&gt; to an extent unprecedented in [[American politics]].&lt;ref name=&quot;finnegan&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;glasser&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last=Glasser |first=Susan B. |author-link=Susan Glasser |date=August 3, 2018 |title=It's True: Trump Is Lying More, and He's Doing It on Purpose |url=https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-trumps-washington/trumps-escalating-war-on-the-truth-is-on-purpose |access-date=January 10, 2019 |magazine=[[The New Yorker]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Konnikova&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last=Konnikova |first=Maria |author-link=Maria Konnikova |date=January 20, 2017 |title=Trump's Lies vs. Your Brain |url=https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/01/donald-trump-lies-liar-effect-brain-214658 |access-date=March 31, 2018 |work=[[Politico]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; His falsehoods became a distinctive part of his political identity.&lt;ref name=&quot;glasser&quot;/&gt; Trump's false and misleading statements were documented by [[fact-checker]]s, including at ''The Washington Post'', which tallied 30,573 false or misleading statements made by Trump over his four-year term.&lt;ref name=&quot;database&quot;/&gt; Trump's falsehoods increased in frequency over time, rising from about six false or misleading claims per day in his first year as president to 39 per day in his final year.&lt;ref name=&quot;TermUntruth&quot;&gt;{{cite news |last1=Kessler |first1=Glenn |author-link1=Glenn Kessler (journalist) |last2=Kelly |first2=Meg |last3=Rizzo |first3=Salvador |last4=Shapiro |first4=Leslie |last5=Dominguez |first5=Leo |date=January 23, 2021 |title=A term of untruths: The longer Trump was president, the more frequently he made false or misleading claims |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/interactive/2021/timeline-trump-claims-as-president/ |access-date=October 11, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Some of Trump's falsehoods were inconsequential, such as his repeated claim of the &quot;[[First inauguration of Donald Trump|biggest inaugural crowd ever]]&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Qiu |first=Linda |date=January 21, 2017 |title=Donald Trump had biggest inaugural crowd ever? Metrics don't show it |url=https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/jan/21/sean-spicer/trump-had-biggest-inaugural-crowd-ever-metrics-don/ |access-date=March 30, 2018 |work=[[PolitiFact]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Rein |first=Lisa |date=March 6, 2017 |title=Here are the photos that show Obama's inauguration crowd was bigger than Trump's |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/03/06/here-are-the-photos-that-show-obamas-inauguration-crowd-was-bigger-than-trumps/ |access-date=March 8, 2017 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Others had more far-reaching effects, such as his promotion of antimalarial drugs as an unproven treatment for COVID-19,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Wong |first=Julia Carrie |author-link=Julia Carrie Wong |date=April 7, 2020 |title=Hydroxychloroquine: how an unproven drug became Trump's coronavirus 'miracle cure' |url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/06/hydroxychloroquine-trump-coronavirus-drug |access-date=June 25, 2021 |work=[[The Guardian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Spring |first=Marianna |date=May 27, 2020 |title=Coronavirus: The human cost of virus misinformation |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-52731624 |access-date=June 13, 2020 |work=[[BBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; causing a U.S. shortage of these drugs and [[panic-buying]] in Africa and South Asia.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Rowland |first=Christopher |date=March 23, 2020 |title=As Trump touts an unproven coronavirus treatment, supplies evaporate for patients who need those drugs |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/03/20/hospitals-doctors-are-wiping-out-supplies-an-unproven-coronavirus-treatment/ |access-date=March 24, 2020 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Parkinson |first1=Joe |last2=Gauthier-Villars |first2=David |date=March 23, 2020 |title=Trump Claim That Malaria Drugs Treat Coronavirus Sparks Warnings, Shortages |url=https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-claim-that-malaria-drugs-treat-coronavirus-sparks-warnings-shortages-11584981897 |url-access=subscription |access-date=March 26, 2020 |work=[[The Wall Street Journal]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Other misinformation, such as misattributing a rise in crime in [[England and Wales]] to the &quot;spread of radical Islamic terror&quot;, served Trump's domestic political purposes.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Zurcher |first=Anthony |date=November 29, 2017 |title=Trump's anti-Muslim retweet fits a pattern |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42171550 |access-date=June 13, 2020 |work=[[BBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump habitually does not apologize for his falsehoods.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Allen |first=Jonathan |date=December 31, 2018 |title=Does being President Trump still mean never having to say you're sorry? |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/does-being-president-trump-still-mean-never-having-say-you-n952841 |access-date=June 14, 2020 |work=[[NBC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Until 2018, the media rarely referred to Trump's falsehoods as lies, including when he repeated demonstrably false statements.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Greenberg |first=David |author-link=David Greenberg (historian) |date=January 28, 2017 |title=The Perils of Calling Trump a Liar |url=https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/01/the-perils-of-calling-trump-a-liar-214704 |access-date=June 13, 2020 |work=[[Politico]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;DBauder&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last=Bauder |first=David |date=August 29, 2018 |title=News media hesitate to use 'lie' for Trump's misstatements |url=https://apnews.com/8d3c7387eff7496abcd0651124caf891 |access-date=September 27, 2023 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Farhi |first=Paul |date=June 5, 2019 |title=Lies? The news media is starting to describe Trump's 'falsehoods' that way. |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/lies-the-news-media-is-starting-to-describe-trumps-falsehoods-that-way/2019/06/05/413cc2a0-8626-11e9-a491-25df61c78dc4_story.html |access-date=April 11, 2024 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2020, Trump was a significant source of disinformation on mail-in voting and the COVID-19 pandemic.&lt;ref name=&quot;USAT-Disinfo&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last=Guynn |first=Jessica |date=October 5, 2020 |title=From COVID-19 to voting: Trump is nation's single largest spreader of disinformation, studies say |url=https://usatoday.com/story/tech/2020/10/05/trump-covid-19-coronavirus-disinformation-facebook-twitter-election/3632194001/ |access-date=October 7, 2020 |work=[[USA Today]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Bergengruen |first1=Vera |last2=Hennigan |first2=W.J. |date=October 6, 2020 |title='You're Gonna Beat It.' How Donald Trump's COVID-19 Battle Has Only Fueled Misinformation |url=https://time.com/5896709/trump-covid-campaign/ |access-date=October 7, 2020 |magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; His attacks on mail-in ballots and other election practices weakened public faith in the integrity of the 2020 presidential election,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Siders |first=David |date=May 25, 2020 |title=Trump sees a 'rigged election' ahead. Democrats see a constitutional crisis in the making. |url=https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/25/donald-trump-rigged-election-talk-fears-274477 |access-date=October 9, 2021 |work=[[Politico]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Riccardi |first=Nicholas |date=September 17, 2020 |title=AP Fact Check: Trump's big distortions on mail-in voting |url=https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-election-2020-ap-fact-check-elections-voting-fraud-and-irregularities-8c5db90960815f91f39fe115579570b4 |access-date=October 7, 2020 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; while his disinformation about the pandemic delayed and weakened the national response to it.&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT 4 11 20&quot;/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;USAT-Disinfo&quot;/&gt; === Conspiracy theories === {{Main|List of conspiracy theories promoted by Donald Trump}} Before and throughout his presidency, Trump promoted numerous conspiracy theories, including [[Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories#Donald Trump|Obama birtherism]], the [[Clinton body count conspiracy theory]], the conspiracy theory movement [[QAnon]], the [[Global warming conspiracy theory|Global warming hoax]] theory, [[Trump Tower wiretapping allegations]], a [[John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory]] involving [[Rafael Cruz]], alleged foul-play in the death of Justice [[Antonin Scalia]], [[Conspiracy theories related to the Trump–Ukraine scandal|alleged Ukrainian interference in U.S. elections]], that [[Osama bin Laden death conspiracy theories|Osama bin Laden was alive]] and Obama and Biden had members of [[Navy SEAL Team 6]] killed,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Fichera |first1=Angelo |last2=Spencer |first2=Saranac Hale |date=October 20, 2020 |title=Trump's Long History With Conspiracy Theories |url=https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/trumps-long-history-with-conspiracy-theories/ |access-date=September 15, 2021 |work=[[FactCheck.org]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Subramaniam |first1=Tara |last2=Lybrand |first2=Holmes |date=October 15, 2020 |title=Fact-checking the dangerous bin Laden conspiracy theory that Trump touted |url=https://cnn.com/2020/10/15/politics/donald-trump-osama-bin-laden-conspiracy-theory-fact-check/ |access-date=October 11, 2021 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Haberman2016&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last=Haberman |first=Maggie |author-link=Maggie Haberman |date=February 29, 2016 |title=Even as He Rises, Donald Trump Entertains Conspiracy Theories |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/01/us/politics/donald-trump-conspiracy-theories.html |access-date=October 11, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Bump |first=Philip |date=November 26, 2019 |title=President Trump loves conspiracy theories. Has he ever been right? |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/11/26/president-trump-loves-conspiracy-theories-has-he-ever-been-right/ |access-date=October 11, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Reston |first=Maeve |date=July 2, 2020 |title=The Conspiracy-Theorist-in-Chief clears the way for fringe candidates to become mainstream |url=https://cnn.com/2020/07/02/politics/trump-conspiracy-theorists-qanon/ |access-date=October 11, 2021 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and linking talk show host [[Joe Scarborough]] to the death of a staffer.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Baker |first1=Peter |author-link1=Peter Baker (journalist) |last2=Astor |first2=Maggie |date=May 26, 2020 |title=Trump Pushes a Conspiracy Theory That Falsely Accuses a TV Host of Murder |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/26/us/politics/klausutis-letter-jack-dorsey.html |access-date=October 11, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In at least two instances, Trump clarified to press that he believed the conspiracy theory in question.&lt;ref name=&quot;Haberman2016&quot;/&gt; During and since the 2020 presidential election, Trump promoted various conspiracy theories for his defeat including dead people voting,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Perkins |first=Tom |date=November 18, 2020 |title=The dead voter conspiracy theory peddled by Trump voters, debunked |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/18/dead-voter-conspiracy-theory-debunked |access-date=October 11, 2021 |work=[[The Guardian]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; voting machines changing or deleting Trump votes, fraudulent mail-in voting, throwing out Trump votes, and &quot;finding&quot; suitcases full of Biden votes.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Cohen |first=Li |date=January 15, 2021 |title=6 conspiracy theories about the 2020 election – debunked |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/presidential-election-2020-conspiracy-theories-debunked/ |access-date=September 13, 2021 |work=[[CBS News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=McEvoy |first=Jemima |date=December 17, 2020 |title=These Are The Voter Fraud Claims Trump Tried (And Failed) To Overturn The Election With |url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/12/17/these-are-the-voter-fraud-claims-trump-tried-and-failed-to-overturn-the-election-with/ |access-date=September 13, 2021 |work=[[Forbes]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Social media === {{Main|Social media use by Donald Trump}} Trump's social media presence attracted worldwide attention after he joined Twitter in 2009. He tweeted frequently during his 2016 campaign and as president until Twitter banned him after the January&amp;nbsp;6 attack, in the final days of his term.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Conger |first1=Kate |last2=Isaac |first2=Mike |date=January 16, 2021 |title=Inside Twitter's Decision to Cut Off Trump |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/16/technology/twitter-donald-trump-jack-dorsey.html |access-date=October 10, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump often used Twitter to communicate directly with the public and sideline the press.&lt;ref name=&quot;gone&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last1=Madhani |first1=Aamer |last2=Colvin |first2=Jill |date=January 9, 2021 |title=A farewell to @realDonaldTrump, gone after 57,000 tweets |url=https://apnews.com/article/twitter-donald-trump-ban-cea450b1f12f4ceb8984972a120018d5 |access-date=October 10, 2021 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In June 2017, the White House press secretary said that Trump's tweets were official presidential statements.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Landers |first=Elizabeth |date=June 6, 2017 |title=White House: Trump's tweets are 'official statements' |url=https://cnn.com/2017/06/06/politics/trump-tweets-official-statements/ |access-date=October 10, 2021 |publisher=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; After years of criticism for allowing Trump to post misinformation and falsehoods, Twitter began to tag some of his tweets with fact-checks in May 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Dwoskin |first=Elizabeth |date=May 27, 2020 |title=Twitter labels Trump's tweets with a fact check for the first time |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/05/26/trump-twitter-label-fact-check/ |access-date=July 7, 2020 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In response, Trump tweeted that social media platforms &quot;totally silence&quot; conservatives and that he would &quot;strongly regulate, or close them down&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Dwoskin |first=Elizabeth |date=May 27, 2020 |title=Trump lashes out at social media companies after Twitter labels tweets with fact checks |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/05/27/trump-twitter-label/ |access-date=May 28, 2020 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the days after the storming of the Capitol, Trump was banned from [[Facebook]], [[Instagram]], Twitter and other platforms.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Fischer |first1=Sara |last2=Gold |first2=Ashley |date=January 11, 2021 |title=All the platforms that have banned or restricted Trump so far |url=https://www.axios.com/platforms-social-media-ban-restrict-trump-d9e44f3c-8366-4ba9-a8a1-7f3114f920f1.html |access-date=January 16, 2021 |work=[[Axios (website)|Axios]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; The loss of his social media presence diminished his ability to shape events&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Timberg |first=Craig |date=January 14, 2021 |title=Twitter ban reveals that tech companies held keys to Trump's power all along |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/01/14/trump-twitter-megaphone/ |access-date=February 17, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Alba |first1=Davey |last2=Koeze |first2=Ella |last3=Silver |first3=Jacob |date=June 7, 2021 |title=What Happened When Trump Was Banned on Social Media |url=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/06/07/technology/trump-social-media-ban.html |access-date=December 21, 2023 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and prompted a dramatic decrease in the volume of misinformation shared on Twitter.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Dwoskin |first1=Elizabeth |last2=Timberg |first2=Craig |date=January 16, 2021 |title=Misinformation dropped dramatically the week after Twitter banned Trump and some allies |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/01/16/misinformation-trump-twitter/ |access-date=February 17, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump's early attempts to reestablish a social media presence were unsuccessful.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Harwell |first1=Drew |last2=Dawsey |first2=Josh |author-link2=Josh Dawsey |date=June 2, 2021 |title=Trump ends blog after 29 days, infuriated by measly readership |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/06/02/trump-blog-dead/ |access-date=December 29, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In February 2022, he launched social media platform [[Truth Social]] where he only attracted a fraction of his Twitter following.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Harwell |first1=Drew |last2=Dawsey |first2=Josh |author-link2=Josh Dawsey |date=November 7, 2022 |title=Trump once reconsidered sticking with Truth Social. Now he's stuck. |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/11/07/trump-once-reconsidered-sticking-with-truth-social-now-hes-stuck/ |access-date=May 7, 2023 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Elon Musk]], after [[Acquisition of Twitter by Elon Musk|acquiring Twitter]], reinstated Trump's Twitter account in November 2022.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Mac |first1=Ryan |last2=Browning |first2=Kellen |date=November 19, 2022 |title=Elon Musk Reinstates Trump's Twitter Account |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/19/technology/trump-twitter-musk.html |access-date=November 21, 2022 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Dang |first1=Sheila |last2=Coster |first2=Helen |date=November 20, 2022 |title=Trump snubs Twitter after Musk announces reactivation of ex-president's account |url=https://www.reuters.com/technology/musks-twitter-poll-showing-narrow-majority-want-trump-reinstated-2022-11-20/ |access-date=May 10, 2024 |work=[[Reuters]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Meta Platforms]]' two-year ban lapsed in January 2023, allowing Trump to return to Facebook and Instagram,&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Bond |first=Shannon |date=January 23, 2023 |title=Meta allows Donald Trump back on Facebook and Instagram |url=https://www.npr.org/2023/01/25/1146961818/trump-meta-facebook-instagram-ban-ends |work=[[NPR]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; although in 2024, Trump continued to call the company an &quot;[[enemy of the people]]&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Egan |first=Matt |date=March 11, 2024 |title=Trump calls Facebook the enemy of the people. Meta's stock sinks |url=https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/11/tech/trump-tiktok-facebook-meta/index.html |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Relationship with the press === {{Further|First presidency of Donald Trump#Relationship with the news media}} [[File:President Trump's First 100 Days- 45 (33573172373).jpg|thumb|Trump talking to the press, March 2017|alt=Trump, seated at the Resolute Desk in the White House, speaking to a crowd of reporters with boom microphones in front of him and public officials behind him]] Trump sought media attention throughout his career, sustaining a &quot;love-hate&quot; relationship with the press.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Parnes |first=Amie |date=April 28, 2018 |title=Trump's love-hate relationship with the press |url=https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/385245-trumps-love-hate-relationship-with-the-press |access-date=July 4, 2018 |work=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the 2016 campaign, Trump benefited from a record amount of free media coverage, elevating his standing in the Republican primaries.&lt;ref name=&quot;Cillizza-160614&quot;/&gt; ''The New York Times'' writer [[Amy Chozick]] wrote in 2018 that Trump's media dominance enthralled the public and created &quot;must-see TV&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Chozick |first=Amy |author-link=Amy Chozick |date=September 29, 2018 |title=Why Trump Will Win a Second Term |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/29/sunday-review/trump-2020-reality-tv.html |access-date=September 22, 2019 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; As a candidate and as president, Trump frequently accused the press of bias, calling it the &quot;fake news media&quot; and &quot;the [[enemy of the people]]&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Hetherington |first1=Marc |author-link1=Marc Hetherington |last2=Ladd |first2=Jonathan M. |date=May 1, 2020 |title=Destroying trust in the media, science, and government has left America vulnerable to disaster |url=https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2020/05/01/destroying-trust-in-the-media-science-and-government-has-left-america-vulnerable-to-disaster/ |access-date=October 11, 2021 |work=[[Brookings Institution]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Rosen |first=Jacob |date=March 11, 2024 |title=Trump, in reversal, opposes TikTok ban, calls Facebook &quot;enemy of the people&quot; |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-reversal-tiktok-ban-says-facebook-enemy-of-people/ |access-date=July 31, 2024 |work=[[CBS News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2018, journalist [[Lesley Stahl]] said that Trump had privately told her that he intentionally discredited the media &quot;so when you write negative stories about me no one will believe you&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Thomsen |first=Jacqueline |date=May 22, 2018 |title='60 Minutes' correspondent: Trump said he attacks the press so no one believes negative coverage |url=https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/388855-60-minutes-correspondent-trump-said-he-attacks-the-press-so-no-one |access-date=May 23, 2018 |work=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; As president, Trump mused about revoking the press credentials of journalists he viewed as critical.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Stelter |first1=Brian |author-link1=Brian Stelter |last2=Collins |first2=Kaitlan |author-link2=Kaitlan Collins |date=May 9, 2018 |title=Trump's latest shot at the press corps: 'Take away credentials?' |url=https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/09/media/president-trump-press-credentials/index.html |access-date=November 22, 2024 |work=[[CNN Money]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; His administration moved to revoke the press passes of two White House reporters, which were restored by the courts.&lt;ref name=&quot;The New York Times&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last=Grynbaum |first=Michael M. |date=December 30, 2019 |title=After Another Year of Trump Attacks, 'Ominous Signs' for the American Press |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/30/business/media/trump-media-2019.html |access-date=October 11, 2021 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Trump White House held about a hundred formal press briefings in 2017, declining by half during 2018 and to two in 2019.&lt;ref name=&quot;The New York Times&quot;/&gt; Trump also deployed the legal system to intimidate the press.&lt;ref name=&quot;Atlantic_Press&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last1=Geltzer |first1=Joshua A. |last2=Katyal |first2=Neal K. |date=March 11, 2020 |title=The True Danger of the Trump Campaign's Defamation Lawsuits |url=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/true-danger-trump-campaigns-libel-lawsuits/607753/ |access-date=October 1, 2020 |work=[[The Atlantic]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In early 2020, the Trump campaign sued ''The New York Times'', ''The Washington Post'', and CNN for defamation in opinion pieces about Russian election interference.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Folkenflik |first=David |author-link=David Folkenflik |date=March 3, 2020 |title=Trump 2020 Sues 'Washington Post,' Days After 'N.Y. Times' Defamation Suit |url=https://www.npr.org/2020/03/03/811735554/trump-2020-sues-washington-post-days-after-ny-times-defamation-suit |access-date=October 11, 2021 |work=[[NPR]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Flood |first1=Brian |last2=Singman |first2=Brooke |date=March 6, 2020 |title=Trump campaign sues CNN over 'false and defamatory' statements, seeks millions in damages |url=https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-campaign-sues-cnn-false-defamatory-statements-millions-damages.amp |access-date=October 11, 2021 |work=[[Fox News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; All the suits were dismissed.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Darcy |first=Oliver |date=November 12, 2020 |title=Judge dismisses Trump campaign's lawsuit against CNN |url=https://cnn.com/2020/11/12/media/trump-campaign-cnn-lawsuit-dismissed/ |access-date=June 7, 2021 |work=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Klasfeld |first=Adam |date=March 9, 2021 |title=Judge Throws Out Trump Campaign's Defamation Lawsuit Against New York Times Over Russia 'Quid Pro Quo' Op-Ed |url=https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/new-york-times-beats-the-trump-campaigns-defamation-suit-over-russia-editorial/ |access-date=October 11, 2021 |work=[[Law and Crime]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Tillman |first=Zoe |date=February 3, 2023 |title=Trump 2020 Campaign Suit Against Washington Post Dismissed (1) |url=https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/trump-2020-campaign-suit-against-washington-post-is-dismissed |work=Bloomberg News}}&lt;/ref&gt; By 2024, Trump repeatedly voiced support for outlawing political dissent and criticism he considers misleading or challenges his claims to power,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Blake |first=Aaron |date=September 24, 2024 |title=Trump keeps talking about criminalizing dissent |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/09/24/trump-keeps-talking-about-criminalizing-dissent/ |url-status=live |access-date=November 23, 2024 |newspaper=The Washington Post}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Kapur |first=Sahil |date=October 13, 2024 |title='Totally illegal': Trump escalates rhetoric on outlawing political dissent and criticism |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/totally-illegal-trump-escalates-rhetoric-outlawing-political-dissent-c-rcna174280 |access-date=November 23, 2024 |work=NBC News |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; and that media companies should be investigated and prosecuted for treason for displaying &quot;bad stories&quot; about him and possibly lose their broadcast licenses if they refuse to name confidential sources.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Ward |first1=Jasper |last2=Singh |first2=Kanishka |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-he-will-seek-googles-prosecution-if-he-wins-election-2024-09-27/ |title=Trump says he will seek Google's prosecution if he wins election |publisher=Reuters |date=September 27, 2024 |access-date=November 23, 2024 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Farhi|first=Paul|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/style/media/2023/10/05/trump-violent-shoplifters-milley-media/|title=Trump's violent rhetoric is getting muted coverage by the news media|newspaper=The Washington Post|date=October 5, 2023|access-date=November 23, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Folkenflik |first=David |date=October 21, 2024 |title=Could Trump's threats against news outlets carry weight if he wins the presidency? |url=https://www.npr.org/2024/10/21/nx-s1-5150039/could-trumps-threats-against-news-outlets-carry-weight-if-he-wins-the-presidency |access-date=November 23, 2024 |work=NPR}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Notes == &lt;templatestyles src=&quot;Reflist/styles.css&quot;/&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;reflist reflist-lower-alpha&quot;&gt;&lt;references group=&quot;lower-alpha&quot;/&gt;&lt;/div&gt; == References == &lt;references /&gt; == Works cited == === Books === &lt;!-- This section is ONLY for books that are cited in footnotes of this Wikipedia article. --&gt; {{Refbegin|30em}} * {{cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uJifCgAAQBAJ|title=The Trumps: Three Generations That Built an Empire|last=Blair|first=Gwenda|publisher=[[Simon &amp; Schuster]]|year=2015|orig-year=2001|isbn=978-1-5011-3936-9}} * {{cite book|last1=Hassan |first1=Steven |author-link=Steven Hassan |year=2019 |title=The Cult of Trump|publisher=Simon &amp; Schuster |pages= |isbn=978-1-9821-2733-6 }} * {{cite book|title=Trump Revealed: The Definitive Biography of the 45th President|last1=Kranish|first1=Michael|author-link1=Michael Kranish|last2=Fisher|first2=Marc|author-link2=Marc Fisher|publisher=[[Simon &amp; Schuster]]|year=2017|orig-year=2016|isbn=978-1-5011-5652-6|title-link=Trump Revealed}} * {{cite book|first=Jon|last=Meacham|title=Destiny and Power: The American Odyssey of George Herbert Walker Bush|date=2016|page=326|publisher=[[Random House]]|isbn=978-0-8129-7947-3}} * {{cite book|title=Trumped!|last1=O'Donnell|first1=John R.|last2=Rutherford|first2=James|publisher=Crossroad Press Trade Edition|year=1991|isbn=978-1-946025-26-5|title-link=Trumped! (book)}} {{refend}}&lt;!-- Resolve 5 harv no-citation script warnings in the cite bundle in #Racial_views --&gt;{{cite whitelink|CITEREFLopez2019|CITEREFDesjardins2018|CITEREFDawsey2018|CITEREFStoddardMfula2018|CITEREFWeaver2018b}} {{sfn whitelist|CITEREFKranishFisher2017|CITEREFBlair2015|CITEREFO'DonnellRutherford1991}} === Journals === {{Refbegin|30em}} * {{Cite journal |last1=Adams |first1=Kenneth Alan |date=Spring 2021 |title=The Trump Death Cult |url=https://www.proquest.com/openview/c5d4601ebe8dcb232f9ab2965e900d70/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&amp;cbl=35407 |journal=Journal of Psychohistory |volume=48 |issue=4 |access-date=November 6, 2024 |pages=256–276 |issn=0145-3378 }} * {{Cite journal |last1=Diamond |first1=Michael J. |date=February 22, 2023 |title=Perverted Containment: Trumpism, Cult Creation, and the Rise of Destructive American Populism |url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07351690.2023.2163147 |journal=Psychoanalytic Inquiry |volume=43 |issue=2 |pages=96–109|doi=10.1080/07351690.2023.2163147}} * {{cite journal|year=2018|doi=10.1080/01463373.2018.1438485|title=Make America Great Again: Donald Trump and Redefining the U.S. Role in the World|journal=[[Communication Quarterly]]|volume=66|issue=2&lt;!--|pages=176–195 --&gt;|page=176|first=Jason A.|last=Edwards}} * {{cite journal |last1=Franks |first1=Andrew S. |last2=Hesami|first2=Farhang|title=Seeking Evidence of The MAGA Cult and Trump Derangement Syndrome: An Examination of (A)symmetric Political Bias|journal=Societies |volume=11 |issue=3 |date=September 18, 2021 |pages=113 |doi=10.3390/soc11030113 |doi-access=free}} * {{cite journal|last1=Holshue|first1=Michelle L.|last2=DeBolt|first2=Chas|last3=Lindquist|first3=Scott|last4=Lofy|first4=Kathy H.|last5=Wiesman|first5=John|last6=Bruce|first6=Hollianne|last7=Spitters|first7=Christopher|last8=Ericson|first8=Keith|last9=Wilkerson|first9=Sara|last10=Tural|first10=Ahmet|last11=Diaz|first11=George|date=March 5, 2020|title=First Case of 2019 Novel Coronavirus in the United States|journal=[[The New England Journal of Medicine]]|volume=382|issue=10|pages=929–936|doi=10.1056/NEJMoa2001191|pmid=32004427|pmc=7092802}} * {{Cite journal |last1=Goldsmith |first1=Benajmin E. |last2=Moen |first2=Lars J. K. |date=May 14, 2024 |title=The personality of a personality cult? Personality characteristics of Donald Trump's most loyal supporters |journal=Political Psychology |volume= |issue=Special Issue |pages= |issn= |doi=10.1111/pops.12991 |quote=We contend that, for his most committed followers, the attraction is personality-based — both in terms of Trump's self-presentation to citizens and in terms of the personality characteristics making some citizens attracted to such leadership. Trump's appeal appears to fit Sundahl's (2023) three characteristics of a personality cult. The phenomenon of a political personality cult may have arrived in full force in U.S. democracy — and could potentially be its undoing.|doi-access=free }} * {{cite journal|last=Johnson|first=Kevin R.|title=Immigration and civil rights in the Trump administration: Law and policy making by executive order|journal=[[Santa Clara Law Review]]|year=2017a|volume=57|issue=3|pages=611–665|url=https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/saclr57&amp;div=21&amp;id=&amp;page=}} * {{cite journal|last1=Johnson|first1=Kevin R.|last2=Cuison-Villazor|first2=Rose|title=The Trump Administration and the War on Immigration Diversity|journal=[[Wake Forest Law Review]]|date=May 2, 2019|url=https://heinonline.org/hol-cgi-bin/get_pdf.cgi?handle=hein.journals/wflr54&amp;section=21|pages=575–616|volume=54|issue=2}} * {{cite journal|url=https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/iran/2020-01-22/cost-incoherent-foreign-policy|title=The Cost of an Incoherent Foreign Policy: Trump's Iran Imbroglio Undermines U.S. Priorities Everywhere Else|first=Brett|last=McGurk|author-link=Brett McGurk|journal=[[Foreign Affairs]]|date=January 22, 2020}} * {{Cite journal|last1=Perry|first1=Samuel L.|last2=Whitehead|first2=Andrew L.|last3=Grubbs|first3=Joshua B.|date=April 21, 2021|title=The Devil That You Know: Christian Nationalism and Intent to Change One's Voting Behavior For or Against Trump in 2020|url=https://www.cambridge.org/core/product/identifier/S175504832100002X/type/journal_article|journal=Politics and Religion|volume=15|issue=2 |pages=229–246|doi=10.1017/S175504832100002X|hdl=11244/334967|hdl-access=free}} * {{Cite journal |last1=Reyes |first1=Antonio |date=May 4, 2020 |title=I, Trump The cult of personality, anti-intellectualism and the Post-Truth era |url=https://www.jbe-platform.com/content/journals/10.1075/jlp.20002.rey |journal=Journal of Language and Politics |volume=19 |issue=6 |pages=869–892 |issn=1569-2159 |doi=10.1075/jlp.20002.rey}} * {{cite journal |last1=Sundahl |first1=Anne-Mette Holmgård |title=Personality Cult or a Mere Matter of Popularity? |journal= International Journal of Politics, Culture, and Society |volume=36 |issue=4 |date=May 4, 2022 |pages=431–458 |doi=10.1007/s10767-022-09423-0 |pmid=35528318 |pmc=9066393}} {{refend}} == External links == {{Library resources box|by=yes}} &lt;!-- Please be cautious about adding external links. 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If there are already suitable links, propose additions or replacements on the article's talk page or submit your link to the relevant category at DMOZ (dmoz.org) and link there using {{Dmoz}}. --&gt; * [https://www.thetrumparchive.com/ Archive of Donald Trump's tweets]&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 9. --&gt; * {{C-SPAN}} * {{IMDb name}} * [https://archive.org/details/trumparchive Donald Trump] on the [[Internet Archive]] * [https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/presidents/donald-j-trump/ Biography of Donald Trump] from [[The White House]] website (courtesy of the [[White House Historical Association]]) {{Donald Trump}} {{US presidents}} {{#invoke:navboxes|top |title = Offices and distinctions |state = collapsed}} {{s-start}} {{s-ppo}} {{s-bef|before=[[Mitt Romney]]}} {{s-ttl|title=[[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] [[List of United States Republican Party presidential tickets|nominee]] for 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convicted of crimes]] [[Category:Florida Republicans]] [[Category:Ig Nobel laureates]] [[Category:Impeached presidents of the United States]] [[Category:Illeists]] [[Category:January 6 United States Capitol attack]] [[Category:New York Military Academy alumni]] [[Category:New York (state) independents]] [[Category:New York (state) politicians convicted of crimes]] [[Category:New York (state) Republicans]] [[Category:People associated with the 2016 United States presidential election]] [[Category:People associated with the 2020 United States presidential election]] [[Category:People associated with the 2024 United States presidential election]] [[Category:People associated with the January 6 United States Capitol attack]] [[Category:People charged under the Espionage Act of 1917]] [[Category:People charged with racketeering]] [[Category:People from Jamaica, Queens]] [[Category:People stripped of honorary degrees]] [[Category:Presidents of the United States]] [[Category:Reform Party of the United States of America politicians]] [[Category:Republican Party (United States) presidential nominees]] [[Category:Republican Party presidents of the United States]] [[Category:Right-wing populists in the United States]] [[Category:The State of Georgia v. Donald J. Trump, et al. defendants]] [[Category:Television personalities from New York City]] [[Category:Television producers from Queens, New York]] [[Category:Time Person of the Year]] [[Category:Trump family|Donald]] [[Category:The Trump Organization employees]] [[Category:Trump–Ukraine scandal]] [[Category:United States Football League executives]] [[Category:Wharton School alumni]] [[Category:WWE Hall of Fame inductees]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&diff=1259217489</id> <title>Talk:Donald Trump</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&diff=1259217489"/> <updated>2024-11-24T00:32:04Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: re <hr /> <div>{{Talk header|hide_find_sources=yes}} {{Controversial}} {{Warning RS and OR}} {{American politics AE|Consensus required=no|BRD=yes|1RR=no}} {{tmbox |image = [[File:Stop hand nuvola orange.svg|48px|link=]] |text = '''Want to add new information about Donald Trump?'''&lt;br/&gt;Please consider choosing the most appropriate article, for example: {{div col}} * [[Indictments against Donald Trump]] * [[Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign]] {{div col end}} ... or dozens of other places, as listed in {{t|Donald Trump series}}. 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|collapsed=y |1= {{Article history |action1=GAN |action1date=15:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC) |action1link=Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 1#GA Failing |action1result=failed |action1oldid=56507759 |action2=GAN |action2date=17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC) |action2link=Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 1#GA failed |action2result=failed |action2oldid=107442121 |action3=GAN |action3link=Talk:Donald Trump/GA1 |action3date= 17 September 2016 |action3result=failed |action3oldid=739866707 |action4=GAN |action4date=03:07, 25 May 2017 (UTC) |action4link=Talk:Donald Trump/GA2 |action4result=failed |action4oldid=782109977 |action5=GAN |action5date=08:44, 2 December 2018 (UTC) |action5link=Talk:Donald Trump/GA3 |action5result=failed |action5oldid=870721866 |action6=GAN |action6date=18:23, 15 July 2019 (UTC) |action6link=Talk:Donald Trump👌/GA4 |action6result=failed |action6oldid=906418948 |action7 = FAC |action7date = 2019-08-31 |action7link = Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Donald Trump/archive1 |action7result = failed |action7oldid = 913215099 |action8 = PR |action8date = 2020-04-29 |action8link = Wikipedia:Peer review/Donald Trump/archive1 |action8result= reviewed |action8oldid = 953988039 |currentstatus=FGAN |topic=Politics and government }} {{Afd-merged-from|Health of Donald Trump|Health of Donald Trump|13 June 2019}} {{Press | collapsed=yes |org=''[[New York Post]]'' |date=November 16, 2013 |author=Cuozzo, Steve |title=Don't Trust Anything on Wikipedia |url=http://nypost.com/2013/11/16/dont-trust-anything-on-wikipedia/ |org2=''[[The Verge]]'' |date2=July 22, 2015 |author2=Popper, Ben |title2=Someone just deleted Donald Trump's entire Wikipedia page |url2=http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/22/9014525/someone-just-deleted-donald-trumps-entire-wikipedia-page |org3=''[[New York Times]]'' |date3=February 1, 2016 |author3=Merrill, Jeremy |title3=On Wikipedia, Donald Trump Reigns and Facts Are Open to Debate |url3=http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/02/us/politics/wikipedia-donald-trump-2016-election.html |org4=''[[Cracked.com]]'' |date4=May 28, 2016 |author4=Germ, Erik |title4=5 Secretly Bizarre Sections Of Websites You Use Every Day |url4=https://web.archive.org/web/20170210205851/http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-truly-bizarre-sections-otherwise-normal-websites_p2/ |org5=''[[The Washington Post]]'' |date5=October 25, 2016 |author5=Guo, Jeff |title5=Wikipedia is fixing one of the Internet's biggest flaws |url5=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/25/somethings-terribly-wrong-with-the-internet-and-wikipedia-might-be-able-to-fix-it/ |org6=''[[The Washington Post]]'' |date6=October 27, 2016|author6=Alcantara, Chris |title6=The most challenging job of the 2016 race: Editing the candidates' Wikipedia pages |url6=https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/presidential-wikipedias/ |org7=''[[BBC News]]'' |date7=December 21, 2016 |author7=Staff Writer |title7=Most-edited Wikipedia pages of 2016 revealed |url7=http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38394685 |org8=''[[The Verge]]'' |date8=January 20, 2017 |author8=Gartenberg, Chaim |title8=Wikipedia editors can't decide if Trump is the president yet |url8=http://www.theverge.com/tldr/2017/1/20/14336626/wikipedia-editors-edit-war-president-obama-trump |org9=''[[The Daily Dot]]'' |date9=June 5, 2017 |author9=Wyrich, Andrew |title9=Someone is trying to get Trump's official portrait deleted from Wikipedia |url9=https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/donald-trump-official-portrait-wikipedia-copyright/ |org10=''[[The Verge]]'' |date10=22 November 2018 |author10=Warren, Tom|title10=Siri thinks Donald Trump is a penis|url10=https://www.theverge.com/tldr/2018/11/22/18108195/apple-siri-iphone-donald-trump-penis-wikipedia-fail-vandalism-editing |org11=''[[USA Today]]'' |date11=22 November 2018 |author11=Blumenthal, Eli|title11=Wikipedia vandalizing causes Siri to show a lewd image when asked about Donald Trump |url11=https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/11/22/siri-glitch-shows-male-genitalia-when-asking-questions-trump/2088884002/ |org12=''[[The Independent]]'' |date12=23 November 2018 |author12=Griffin, Andrew|title12=Asking Siri for information about Donald Trump shows explicit image after Wikipedia edit|url12=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/donald-trump-siri-explicit-image-apple-wikipedia-edit-explained-a8648556.html |org13=''[[Newsweek]]'' |date13=23 November 2018 |author13=Gander, Kashmira|title13=Someone hacked Donald Trump's Wikipedia page, replaced photo with image of penis|url13=https://www.newsweek.com/someone-hacked-donald-trumps-wikipedia-page-replaced-photo-image-penis-1228571 |org14=''[[The Inquirer]]'' |date14=26 November 2018 |author14=Martin, Alan|title14=The Trump penis Wikipedia war has kicked off again|url14=https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3066986/the-trump-penis-wikipedia-war-has-kicked-off-again |org15=''[[The Verge]]'' |date15=December 3, 2018 |author15=Brandom, Russell|title15=Wikipedia engages the 'nuclear option' after Trump penis hack|url15=https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/4/18125359/wikipedia-trump-admin-account-security-hack |org16=''[[Slate (magazine)|Slate]]'' |date16=May 28, 2019 |author16=Mak, Aaron|title16=Donald Trump's Wikipedia Entry Is a War Zone|url16=https://slate.com/technology/2019/05/donald-trump-wikipedia-page.htm |org17=''[[Fast Company]]'' |date17=March 7, 2020 |author17=Pasternack, Alex |title17=How Wikipedia's volunteers became the web's best weapon against misinformation |url17=https://www.fastcompany.com/90471667/how-wikipedia-volunteers-became-the-webs-best-weapon-against-misinformation |org18=''[[Fox News]]'' |date18=May 21, 2020 |author18=Flood, Brian |title18=Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger says online encyclopedia scrapped neutrality, favors lefty politics |url18=https://www.foxnews.com/media/wikipedia-co-founder-larry-sanger-says-online-dictionary-scrapped-neutrality-favors-lefty-politics |org19=''[[Snopes]]'' |date19=November 19, 2020 |author19=Evon, Dan |title19=Does Loser.com Redirect to Trump’s Wikipedia Page? |url19=https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loser-com-trump-wikipedia-page/ |org20=''[[The Guardian]]'' |date20=October 23, 2023 |author20=Williams, Zoe |title20=Why is Elon Musk attacking Wikipedia? Because its very existence offends him |url20=https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/23/why-is-elon-musk-attacking-wikipedia-because-its-very-existence-offends-him |org21=''[[Fox News]]'' |date21=May 31, 2024 |author21=Hays, Gabriel |title21=CNN host suggests Trump conviction not mentioned prominently enough on former president's Wikipedia page |url21=https://www.foxnews.com/media/cnn-host-suggests-trump-conviction-mentioned-prominently-enough-former-presidents-wikipedia-page |org22=''[[Slate (magazine)|Slate]]'' |date22=June 4, 2024 |author22=Harrison, Stephen |title22=The Most Heated Debate on Trump’s Felony Conviction Is Happening on ... Wikipedia? |url22=https://slate.com/technology/2024/06/donald-trump-felony-wikipedia-debate.html |org23=''[[The Boston Globe]]'' |date23=October 17, 2024 |author23=Sam Wineburg and Nadav Ziv |title23=Go ahead and use Wikipedia for research |url23=https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/10/17/opinion/use-wikipedia-reliable-source/ }} {{All time pageviews|233}} {{Annual report|[[Wikipedia:2015 Top 50 Report|2015]], [[Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/2016|2016]], [[Wikipedia:2017 Top 50 Report|2017]], [[Wikipedia:2018 Top 50 Report|2018]], [[Wikipedia:2019 Top 50 Report|2019]], [[Wikipedia:2020 Top 50 Report|2020]], [[Wikipedia:2021 Top 50 Report|2021]], and [[Wikipedia:2023 Top 50 Report|2023]]}} {{Top 25 report|Jun 14 2015|Jun 28 2015|Jul 19 2015|until|Sep 27 2015|Dec 6 2015|Dec 13 2015|Jan 3 2016|until|Jan 17 2016|until|Jun 12 2016|Jul 3 2016|until|Jul 31 2016|Aug 21 2016|until|Dec 18 2016|Jan 1 2017|until|Apr 2 2017|Apr 23 2017|May 14 2017|until|May 28 2017|Jun 11 2017|Jun 25 2017|Oct 8 2017|Oct 22 2017|Nov 26 2017|Jan 14 2018|Jun 10 2018|Sep 30 2018|Oct 28 2018|until|Nov 25 2018|Dec 9 2018|Sep 22 2019|Dec 15 2019|Jan 5 2020|Feb 23 2020|Mar 1 2020|Apr 12 2020|May 31 2020|until|Jun 28 2020|Aug 9 2020|until|Aug 23 2020|Sep 27 2020|until|Dec 13 2020|Jan 3 2021|until|Jan 31 2021|Jul 10 2022|Jun 11 2023|May 26 2024|Jun 23 2024|Jul 14 2024|Jul 21 2024|Oct 20 2024|until|Nov 10 2024}} {{Annual readership|scale=log}} &lt;!-- end page history banner bundle --&gt; }} {{Skip to talk}} {{Skip to bottom}} {{Banner holder |collapsed=yes |1= {{Section sizes}} }} {{User:MiszaBot/config |algo = old(14d) |archive = Talk:Donald Trump/Archive %(counter)d |counter = 177 |maxarchivesize = 250K |archiveheader = {{aan}} |minthreadstoarchive = 1 |minthreadsleft = 2 }} __TOC__ == Current consensus == &lt;!-- Must be on this page, not the subpage, to support mobile users --&gt; {{/Current consensus}} == Racially charged == &lt;!-- START PIN --&gt;{{Pin message|}}&lt;!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 10:51, 10 November 2034 (UTC) --&gt;{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|2046768684}}&lt;!-- END PIN --&gt; Hello all, I see Consensus #30, based particularly on [[Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_92#Wording_for_sentence_in_lead_on_racial_stance|this Request for Comment]] says: &quot;The lead includes: &quot;Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist.&quot;&quot; I can also see that this is the only mention of &quot;racially charged&quot; in the article. Would editors here support removal of &quot;racially charged&quot; until such text is supported in the body? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tq|Would editors here support removal of &quot;racially charged&quot; until such text is supported in the body?}} Not this one, per process. We're not going to amend #30 until the body is fixed, then reverse the amendment. &quot;Racially charged&quot; appears to have enough RS support, so just find a way to work it into the body. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::&lt;s&gt;What does &quot;reverse the amendment&quot; mean? Go back to Consensus 24? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; I understand. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::I see the grammatical ambiguity. :) &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::This seems backwards. Lead follows body. We shouldn't treat the consensus list as sacrosanct, it's merely there to keep track of RfCs. If the article has moved on, I'd support a new RfC to challenge the previous one. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 07:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Riposte97}} I think an RfC should be avoided if it can be. Do you think you could [[WP:FIXIT]]? I'll have a go as well in a bit. If we don't have luck we can look at overturning Consensus #30. :::Given it's an [[WP:EXCEPTIONAL]] claim, high-quality sources will be needed. I wouldn't accept journalists being arbitrators of whether his comments were &quot;racially charged&quot;, political scientists will have written on it and we shouldn't accept inferior sourcing. This is the standard that was applied for &quot;cult of personality&quot;. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 07:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Your reasoning seems consistent with [[WP:NEWSORG]]. A departure, probably more impactful (disruptive?) than you realize, but maybe ultimately good for the article. No strong opinion provided we adhere to the established consensus process. If that means revisiting #30, I suppose you pass the &quot;significant new argument(s)&quot; test. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]], apologies that I've not had the time to properly devote to this. I'll see what I can add to your page in the coming days. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :Yep definitely. [[Special:Contributions/92.30.105.204|92.30.105.204]] ([[User talk:92.30.105.204|talk]]) 19:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC) I have created a page [[User:Rollinginhisgrave/Trump racism descriptor]] as a space for research on this article. I intended to use academic sources in [[Racial views of Donald Trump]] as the basis to follow summary style, but extremely disappointingly, only six of the almost 500 sources are academic. This is collaborative so please help! If this can be pinned to the top of this page for a short while it would be valuable. Remember, for [[WP:WEIGHT]], we are not merely looking for multiple sources describing him or his comments/actions as racist/racially charged, but for the weighted response of high-quality academic sources to these questions. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 10:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|SusanLesch}} Pinging you in case this effort is of interest. Been working mostly on collating books right now as journals are daunting for finding discussion of general scholarly consensus. If you find other useful texts along the way providing a scholarly retrospective assessment on aspects, I'm currently dropping them in [[User:Rollinginhisgrave/sandbox_2]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC) ::Will do. Sorry if I'm slow today with journals but I will catch up. On this topic per [[MOS:LEADNO]], {{tq| not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text}}, however this statement absolutely should be cited per [[MOS:CITELEAD]]. Seems like a good place for a perfectly cited footnote. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:42, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :::Thanks :) Yes the key issue is definitely it being uncited. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:48, 15 November 2024 (UTC) == Tracking lead size == Word counts by paragraph and total. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1255636208 05 Nov 2024] &amp;mdash; '''614''' = 29 + 101 + 106 + 156 + 101 + 121 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1257045174 12 Nov 2024] &amp;mdash; '''657''' = 46 + 101 + 116 + 175 + 176 + 43 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1258463601 19 Nov 2024] &amp;mdash; '''418''' = 62 + 76 + 153 + 127 == Religion in Donald Trump's life == Hi. I added 57 words to the thin content of the Religion section. Since these words were reverted with concern about length and mentions elsewhere in article, please discuss the added content here and the quality of the [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|Reliable sources]] involved: # Added that his family's church was &quot;led by Norman Vincent Peale.&quot; -- This point is made by Kelsey Dallas, an award-winning religion journalist (Deseret News), in her article, &quot;What has Donald Trump said about religion?&quot; (7-18-24) and elaborated by the NYT article &quot;Overlooked Influences on Donald Trump: A Famous Minister and His Church&quot; (9-5-16) -- '''5 words''' # &quot;During his childhood, he also went to the [[First Presbyterian Church (Brooklyn)|First Presbyterian Church]] in Brooklyn and donated to it in 2012.&quot; -- This church affiliation is completely missing from the article. It is supported by the Kelsey Dallas piece and this article in ''The Atlantic'': Green, Emma (July 24, 2016). &quot;Donald Trump Grew Up at a Church That's Now Full of Immigrants&quot; -- '''19 words''' # Added that his new identification as a non-denominational Christian is &quot;an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president.&quot; Source: Admin, C. (October 27, 2020). &quot;Trump Becomes the First President Since Eisenhower to Change Faiths in Office&quot;. ''Christianity Today''. More can be said about this salient shift, of course, but here adding only -- '''10 words''' # &quot;Trump appeals to Christian nationalists, according to a 2022 study&quot; -- This key point is missing from the article. There are numerous sources that discuss his relationship to Christian nationalism, please [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22trump%22+%22christian+nationalism%22&amp;client=firefox-b-1-d&amp;sca_esv=bdd267d42e3b57fe&amp;sca_upv=1&amp;ei=LwP7ZqLnCY2gwN4P07CoqQs&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjiutmquuuIAxUNENAFHVMYKrUQ4dUDCA8&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22trump%22+%22christian+nationalism%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHyJ0cnVtcCIgImNocmlzdGlhbiBuYXRpb25hbGlzbSJI4CJQiQNYoBpwAXgAkAEAmAF-oAHXDKoBBDEyLjW4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgWgAtADwgIIEAAYgAQYxwPCAgUQABiABMICDRAAGIAEGEMYxwMYigWYAwCIBgGSBwM0LjGgB_oN&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp%7Csearch Google News] to confirm. Here I suggest an academic paper by leading scholars: Perry, Samuel L.; Whitehead, Andrew L.; Grubbs, Joshua B. (June 2022). &quot;The Devil That You Know: Christian Nationalism and Intent to Change One's Voting Behavior For or Against Trump in 2020&quot;. Politics and Religion. 15 (2): 229–246. doi:10.1017/S175504832100002X. p.243 -- '''10 words''' # &quot;and in March 2024 he began to sell copies of a Christian Bible.&quot; -- Not elsewhere in the article. Source: Willingham, A. J. (March 28, 2024). &quot;Why some Christians are angry about Trump's 'God Bless the USA' Bible&quot;. CNN. -- '''13 words''' Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life, especially because the personal is political for his relationship with Christian constituencies. In the current version, the word &quot;Christian&quot; only appears once in the article. I believe these 5 changes are written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|Neutral point of view]], clearly [[Wikipedia:Verified|Verified]], and involve due [[Wikipedia:WEIGHT|Weight]] to a significant aspect of the subject's life. @[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]], thanks in advance for comments. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 20:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC) :There is an argument for 2, 4, and 5 to be added. 1 and 3 are relatively trivial IMO. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 20:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC) ::I believe 1 is not trivial. The &quot;power of positive thinking&quot; is at the heart of Trump's philosophy. I believe it used to be in the article, but has been edited out at some point.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 00:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :1, 2, 3 are silly trivia. Ambivalent on the rest. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 01:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :4 seems more relevant. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 01:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :There is too much religion material in the article. There should be something about his pandering to fundamentalist Christians , his strange messages to the Jews, and his attempts to monetize and brand himself with the Bible. Well, actually we do have the photo-op.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 01:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC) ::I believe the Bible is included in an article on Trump products.[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 02:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC) ::You can now get the “The Day God Intervened” edition ({{tq|custom embossed to in remembrance of the day that God intervened during President Donald J. Trump`s assassination attempt}} — English [https://godblesstheusabible.com/ isn't the website's forte]) of &quot;the only Bible endorsed by&quot; Trump, using his &quot;name, likeness and image&quot; under a license agreement with one of Trump's organizations, CIC Ventures LLC; $59.99, or $1,000 with {{tq|President Donald J. Trump's Hand-Signed Signature}}. It's not a Trump-branded product, so it's mentioned in the last paragraph of [[The Trump Organization#Other ventures and investments]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :::: {{ping|SPECIFICO}} Hi there. Based on your suggestion more content about Christians, messages to Jews, etc., it looks like a typo and that you meant to write, &quot;There is ''not'' too much religion...&quot; -- is that right? [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 19:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I meant there's too much insignificant content about church etc and not enough about his use of religion in efforts to pander to various groups.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 02:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]] Thank you for the link to the godblesstheusabible website ... my brain just exploded. &lt;span style=&quot;border-radius:9em;background:#88ff00&quot;&gt;[[User:Bobsd|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• Bobsd •&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt;([[User talk:Bobsd|talk]]) 01:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1225220728&amp;oldid=1225196949 This edit] moved Trump’s Sunday school confirmation from [[Donald Trump#Religion|Religion]] to [[Donald Trump#Early life|Early Life]], and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1225221117&amp;oldid=1225220728 this edit] removed Peale. {{tq|Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life}} — he was and is unable to name a favorite or cite a single verse or passage from the Bible. I just moved Sunday school back into the section. I assume Sunday school was mentioned only because of contradictory Trump claims about his religion/religiosity. I can't think of any other bio mentioning it as part of early life and education, not even [[Mike Pence]]'s. Was tempted to remove it but didn't because of this discussion. :*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1225221117&amp;oldid=1225220728 this edit] in May removed Peale. The Trumps started attending Marble Collegiate Church because of Peale's fame and feel-good-about-being-rich sermons. Seems trivial to me. :*Donation to Brooklyn church: It was apparently only reported by one source, [https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/07/trumps-sunday-school/492653/ The Atlantic], at the time which also reported that {{tq|As far as Patrick O’Connor, the pastor, knows, the Republican presidential nominee has never tried to visit the church where he grew up—or, at least, not in several decades.}} Who knows why he sent a check in 2012, and was it a personal check or a Trump Foundation check? :*Christian nationalism. There's one sentence in [[Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Campaign events]]: {{tq|The Associated Press noted that &quot;Trump's rallies take on the symbols, rhetoric and agenda of Christian nationalism.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last=Peter|first=Smith|date=May 18, 2024|title=Jesus is their savior, Trump is their candidate. Ex-president's backers say he shares faith, values|url=https://apnews.com/article/trump-christian-evangelicals-conservatives-2024-election-43f25118c133170c77786daf316821c3|access-date=June 2, 2024|work=[[Associated Press]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} It's part of his rhetoric to please a subset of his supporters, so it would belong in [[Donald Trump#2024 presidential campaign]]. :*&quot;an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president&quot; — trivial statistic. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC) ::It seems like Peale was an important influence on the Donald’s life, so I would strongly urge the reinstatement of that text. [[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 17:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :::Hi. @[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]], Thanks for your collaborative comments and for explaining your take to each of these points, which I appreciate, plus you looked up past edits. You also moved the Sunday school thing, even though you feel that it's unimportant. Your point (higher up) about the bible is clear and well-explained, so I get that (#5). If the donation is only one RS, then I can see leaving out of this article, though it may belong in a sub-article (#2). :::* On Christian nationalism (#4), or Christian right / conservatism -- you suggest a different section, that's very helpful. There are numerous RS sources on his relationship to Christian movements, e.g., [[Trumpism]] article long section. It is deeper and earlier than the current campaign, so it might go under earlier under political career. But I'm puzzled because this article doesn't mention the political movement-building he has done, e.g., MAGA, Trumpism. and Christian conservatism. What's your sense of that? (FWIW, my #3 is related to all this, but less important than showing readers his evangelical coalition-building.) :::* On Norman Vincent Peale -- Ok, it might sound trivial at first glance. But there are many sources that report, analyze, and opine about the relevance of Peale to Trump. Is it helpful if I give some links, or would that be off-putting here? [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/10/how-self-help-author-norman-vincent-peale-influenced-donald-trump.html CNBC 2020],[https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/nyregion/donald-trump-marble-collegiate-church-norman-vincent-peale.html NYT] 2016, [https://www.crosswalk.com/headlines/contributors/scott-slayton/things-christians-should-know-about-the-faith-of-donald-trump.html a Christian POV], [https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/10/donald-trump-2016-norman-vincent-peale-213220/ biographer in Politico], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/how-trump-got-religion--and-why-his-legendary-ministers-son-now-rejects-him/2016/01/21/37bae16e-bb02-11e5-829c-26ffb874a18d_story.html WaPo] 2016, [https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/surge-piety-norman-vincent-peale/ evangelical POV], [https://www.deseret.com/indepth/2020/10/8/21506597/norman-vincent-peale-donald-trump-covid-glenn-beck-positive-thinking-stephen-covey-mary-trump/ linking to his COVID approach] (one of several), [https://www.firstthings.com/article/2016/08/donald-trump-man-of-faith First Things conservative POV], and more. :::Thanks for your consideration. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 19:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC) ::::A consensus appears to be forming for adding Trump's support of Christian nationality somewhere in the article. Peale influence: {{tq|in an interview [Trump] [https://web.archive.org/web/20160906211340/https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/nyregion/donald-trump-marble-collegiate-church-norman-vincent-peale.html described Dr. Peale] as “a great preacher and a great public speaker” but said nothing about any religious beliefs he had imparted.}} (New York Times) {{tq|[https://web.archive.org/web/20160123161744/https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/how-trump-got-religion--and-why-his-legendary-ministers-son-now-rejects-him/2016/01/21/37bae16e-bb02-11e5-829c-26ffb874a18d_story.html Trump, in a telephone interview], ... said he was a young man when he first heard Norman Vincent Peale preach. “He would give the best sermons of anyone; he was an amazing public speaker,” Trump said. “He could speak for 90 minutes and people were upset when it was over.” Trump said he was drawn to stories the minister told in the pulpit about successful business executives “overcoming difficulties.” “I found that very interesting,” the billionaire said, adding that he and Peale became friends. “He thought I was his greatest student of all time.”}} (Washington Post) Sounds more transactional than faith-based. Also, are there any witnesses for Trump attending church every Sunday for 50 years? He has been known to lie ... [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::::'''Peale''' was a far-right Christian nationalist charlatan and a bigot whose model is reflected in much of Trump's present-day rhetoric. [[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 02:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I think his relationship with Peale was transactional, but that's no reason not to include it![[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 02:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::No, Peale was a [https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+peale hero and role model] - like Roy Cohn, Putin, and Lechter. These icons impregnated the imagination of what would become today's Trump-2024.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 12:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::Based on responses, I will aim to write something brief in the article about Trump's work with Christian conservatives and (arguable) support for Christian nationalism. Might be next week. It's fine, of course, if somebody else writes this into the article, please let me know via ping. :::::::On Peale, it seems that he deserves at least limited mention as an inspiration (or other term) for Trump. I think this is easiest to put into Religion section, since Trump encountered hiim through church, but other suggested placements are welcome. Thanks for all your responses and finding further sources. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 02:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Hi @[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]], in my comment above (Oct 9), I expressed what I took to be a suitable handling for Peale. While some users assumed Peale was trivial, I cited 8 different sources, including articles devoted to Peale's influence on Trump. Your comment mentioned NYT and WaPo. Specifico and Jack Upland affirmed the relevance of Peale. Please clarify your concerns, e.g., is Peale's influence not discussed by credible sources, should Peale's influenced be mentioned elsewhere in the article? Something else? Thanks. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 14:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::There's no consensus to add Peale. Only eight people participated in this discussion. Four opposed mentioning Peale, and one acquiesced to the opposed faction. Peale's [[Norman Vincent Peale#Influence|page mentions]] Donald Trump, and [[Fred Trump#Personal life|Fred Trump's]] page mentions Peale's influence on Fred. Fred Trump was raised Lutheran, his children were raised in his wife's Presbyterian beliefs, became a member of the Norman Vincent Peale church of &quot;positive thinking&quot;. Trump, who went back to living with his parents after he finished college, went along but seems to have come away with &quot;assume the worst&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Factoid #2 needs to be removed and I'll acquiesce to those above who say that #1 and #3 should go. In general, it's more important how Trump is perceived by the religious right than trivialities about the few times he actually attended church. &lt;sub style=&quot;border:1px solid #FFCC00;&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Purplebackpack89|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FFCC00;background:#800080;&quot;&gt;pbp&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 20:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Based on discussion above, I'm '''adding a Christian nationalism sentence''' to a subsection on Trump's campaign rhetoric: &quot;Without being conventionally religious, Trump used Christian nationalist rhetoric that portrayed Christians under siege in America and that promised its renewal as a Christian nation.&quot; This is based on the most cited authors on Christian nationalism in contemporary American politics (this article has been cited 500+ times): Whitehead, Andrew L., Samuel L. Perry, and Joseph O. Baker. &quot;Make America Christian again: Christian nationalism and voting for Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential election.&quot; Sociology of religion 79, no. 2 (2018): 147-171. esp pages 150-153. It'd be good to have at least one sentence on his coalition building with evangelical / conservative Christians. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 17:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :: In line with the above discussion, I also added a '''sentence on Norman Vincent Peale''' in the &quot;Religion&quot; subsection. There are various sources, noted above, so I chose the liberal NY Times and the conservative First Things, which both give a pretty reasonable account of how Trump was influenced by Peale. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 18:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253113754&amp;oldid=1252993272 reverted] the addition of Peale since there is no consensus for it, and I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253116482&amp;oldid=1253113754 replaced] the material you added with the material we discussed here. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} I don't care to take on uninvolved closure here, but the last comment of any substance was on 30 October. What do the participants think? Close as resolved or no? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :I've removed the closure. More discussion needed. Elaborating shortly. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 19:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :Justifications for inclusion here are very thin. Relative importance of facts to the topic Trump and religion is assessed by editors applying editorial judgement as to whether facts are trivial, which is one of the weakest ways of ensuring NPOV. The first article linked makes an effort to contextualize facts in how important they are to Trump's religion overall, but it is a weak source, given &quot;there is no consensus on whether the Deseret News is independent of the LDS Church.&quot; Better sources exist to assess what facts are significant re Trump and religion, the key one being [https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-40758-1] &lt;ins&gt;which &quot;Provides a scholarly retrospective on the presidential legacies of... Trump [re; religion]&lt;/ins&gt;.[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 19:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::Useful summary of Trump's relationship with religion in the context of his biography and politics (page 284) &quot;Yet a closer look revealed that Christianity, and to a lesser extent Judaism, played a significant and complex role in Trump’s life. For several decades, the Trump family selected the Fifth Avenue church, Marble Collegiate, as a spiritual home. Marble’s pastor, Methodist minister Norman Vincent Peale, embodied an unorthodox, psychology-based Christian preaching, pro-business message, and connections to Republican Party politicians. After Donald Trump’s parents died, he frequently consulted a nondenominational, televangelist pastor Paula White. Meanwhile, Trump’s daughter Ivanka converted to Judaism and married the Orthodox Jew real estate developer Jared Kushner in 2009.&quot; [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258682804&amp;oldid=1258675545 Rewrote using above]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Rollinginhisgrave}} you have not established consensus for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1258693912 this restoration]; please self-revert. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 02:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Hi {{u|Nikkimaria}}, happy to revert, before I do could you clarify what you mean by &quot;establish consensus for this restoration&quot;? I understand what constitutes a revert is contentious, but I also believe I was following [[WP:BRD|bold, revert, discuss]]. This is as you deleted the discussion on religion, which has been in the article for a long time, even if not in this form, and I reverted it. If you were reverting my change in the content of the religion section, you would restore the previous content. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I reverted your addition of new religion-related content, and request that you get consensus for it before restoring. Is what you posted above a direct quote from the source? If so, your proposal also seems like [[WP:CLOP|very close paraphrasing]], except for the vaguer last sentence. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 02:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::{{u|Nikkimaria}} I've [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258699797&amp;oldid=1258693912 restored] the text before my edit. My edit was not an addition but a replacement. The above is a direct quote and I spent a fair bit of time trying to reword but apparently did so poorly. Summaries of summaries are always difficult, I'll have another go. :::::::You initially described the content as &quot;overdetail&quot;, could you elaborate why you think so in light of the quote I provided? &quot;Christianity, and to a lesser extent Judaism, played a significant and complex role in Trump’s life&quot; (Carty &amp; Rozell, 2023) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:13, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Not everything that can be sourced warrants inclusion, and this particular material doesn't provide a lot of concrete value - what does it mean to &quot;play a significant role&quot;? Having a Jewish family member doesn't mean that Judaism as a religion influences your views. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::The chapter the text is summarising elaborates what it means to play a significant role. I'll come back to this in an hour or so when I have source access and expand. I'm unsure the article text will be able to convey this significance beyond listing significant facts without being very long, it may be eligible for a split into a standalone article on Trump's relationship with religion. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Donald Trump has no significant relationship with religion, outside of occasionally using an upside-down bible as a political prop. No place in this article, and the idea of a standalone article is absurd. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 04:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::{{u|Zaathras}}, I will be unavailable to discuss this for the next hour. For when I am available, would you be able to provide reliable sources of equivalent quality attesting that {{tq|Trump has no significant relationship with religion}}? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}}A few hours later, here nonetheless. *Peale: Attended by whole family. Entrepreneurial approach to Christianity appealed to Trump and his dad. Peale presided his marriage to Ivana. Relationship expanded in 80s, such as using Peale as a character reference when entering Atlanta casino industry. Endorsed in Peale's autobiography. Business ethic in 80s reflected a secular interpretation of Peale's Christianity. Relationship to Marbles Church heavily emphasized during Marla scandal. Peale's successor officiated wedding to Marla. *White: Frequently consulted White after parents death after reaching out to her in 2001, serving as a personal pastor. With Melania, stood by White during scandals (misuse of funds, second divorce, bankruptcy of church. *Judaism: Ivanka-Kushner marriage notable in and of itself. Kushner's family contacts got Trump a speech at AIPAC, promoting Israel's interests. Coming up to 2016, Trump courted Jewish and Evangelical groups. Trump made inroads with the Jewish vote, who had traditionally been Democratic voters. Enrolled conservative Jews to leadership positions. Kushner is attributed as responsible for changing platform to Israel to rejecting Palestinian state promotion. Kushner's family had a long-term relationship to Netanyahu (he stayed in Jared's bedroom when Jared was a teenager?) so on. '''Roughly rewritten proposal, clarifying &quot;play a significant role&quot;''': For decades, Trump and his family attended the [[Marble Collegiate Church]], maintaining a personal relationship with [[Protestant]] preacher [[Norman Vincent Peale]]. Peale, who emphasized a pro-business, psychology-based ministry, is credited with influencing Trump's business ethic that emphasized &quot;success&quot; during the 1980s. Following his parent's deaths, the non-denominational televangelist [[Paula White]] served as Trump's personal pastor, being frequently consulted and sometimes defended by Trump. After his daughter Ivanka married Jewish businessman [[Jared Kushner]] in 2009, Trump successfully courted the Democratic Jewish vote, employing the help of Kushner and his family to write policy and reach Israeli organizations and Jewish voters. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :This still has a lot of detail that isn't needed, and I don't think Israeli policy belongs in a personal-life section - you could propose incorporating that particular piece in a rewrite of the existing Israel section. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:30, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::What information do you think can be cut while still establishing the significance in-text of these core facts (Peale, White, Kushner)? A rewrite may be the best to express this. I do think your suggestion to move some to the Israel section is a good idea: it would help the article be cohesive rather than the current siloing approach and the significance would still be established. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::Based on the discussion above there does not seem to be consensus to include Peale at this point. &quot;Following his parents' death, televangelist [[Paula White]] became Trump's personal pastor&quot; covers White. I don't think anything regarding Kushner belongs in this context, though as mentioned might elsewhere. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 02:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've challenged that consensus by introducing a source which supersedes those previously discussed. I agree with you that given &lt;del&gt;Kushner&lt;/del&gt;&lt;ins&gt;his relationship with Judaism&lt;/ins&gt; is largely significant relating to politics, moving it there would be the best place. However, I don't think as the article is written it fits in anywhere there at the moment, I'll work on rewriting it over the next few weeks. Until then, this is the best, albeit imperfect place. I can expand if this doesn't make sense. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Nikkimaria, I favor mention of Peale (noted in a different thread, not the above discussion). Rollinginhisgrave, we have a Harv warning error because Carty &amp; Rozell is unused (I'd remove it but wonder if it will be back soon). [[:Category:Harv_and_Sfn_template_errors#Displaying_error_messages|Trappist the Monk's script]] will show these errors. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{u|SusanLesch}} I did remove it, unsure how it's returned. I have got Trappist the Monk's excellent script, we can remove for now, not too much effort to add it back in. I may need to make a formal proposal below of the text change, although I hope Nikkimaria can weed out any excessive text before that. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 16:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Correction, I might be off by a generation, Nikkimaria. I am reading that [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/10/how-self-help-author-norman-vincent-peale-influenced-donald-trump.html Mary Trump says] Peale influenced Fred Trump (Donald's dad) the most. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 21:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::In which case his article would be the better place for Peale. As to {{tq|this is the best, albeit imperfect place}} - no, it can wait for a rewrite of a different section. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:44, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Agree and he's already there. I found [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Trump_Revealed/x2jUDQAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;bsq=%22norman%20vincent%20peale%22 one paragraph on p. 81] in Kranish &amp; Fisher (2016) that says he was important, a mentor to Donald, who taught him to think of positive outcomes, but Peale wasn't really mentioned again. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:00, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::*{{tq|his article would be the better place for Peale}} I am unsure the best way to respond to this. Could you expand on your reasoning here, preferably with reference to policies and guidelines? ::::::::*{{tq|no, it can wait for a rewrite of a different section}} The only relevant carveout for excluding DUE content I can think of here is [[MOS:TRIVIA]], which notes {{tq|Otherwise valid content should ultimately be removed if there isn't a good place for it}}. There is a good place for it here, a discussion on his relationship with religion. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 10:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::I don't agree that that ''is'' a good place for it, because what you're proposing is much more relevant to his political career than his ''personal'' religious views. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 00:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Request for consensus: Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == OK. Here's my proposal: that a section be added that reports the ''public discussion of concerns'' about his health, which are now a major part of public discourse. It should obviously not ''itself'' speculate on Trump's mental fitness, only report on the comments of [[WP:RS]] according to the [[WP:NPOV]] guidelines. This would not violate [[WP:MEDRS]], because it would not express an opinion on his mental state, only report on the opinions of others. Opinions, please? &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 11:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :A consensus/new consensus can be established without an RfC. You've already started the discussion on this page. Opening an RfC at this point would be improper, IMO. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 11:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :If you insist on going that route, this is the procedure: [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 11:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC) * Just to start off: '''support''' as proposer, per comments above. &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 11:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Anome, I suggest you notify the talk page of the article from which your proposed content originated. That page is 6 years old, so the editors there are likely knowledgeable.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 20:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Best 'not' to hand out such a notification at another talkpage, Anome. Less that be construed as [[WP:CANVASS|canvassing]] for support. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''', it is media speculation, not a clinical diagnosis, and this is a BLP. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''yes''' it is time, esp after the 39 minute dance this week the topic has received quite a bit of coverage. whether it is a 'diagnosis' or not is not an issue, a encyclopedia is not drawing a medically-based conclusion it is just reflecting the preponderance of the sources. [[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] ([[User talk:ValarianB|talk]]) 13:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *''' No''' or at best, very limited yes. I know we don't cite other wiki pages. But just for comparison, the [[Joe Biden]] main page only gives it about a vague sentence or two, and that's for a figure who's cognitive decline has been much more prominent and widely discussed by RS. Also, that section is titled much more neutrally simply as &quot;Age and health.&quot; So overall, this is a &quot;no&quot; unless ''significantly'' scaled back. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 13:50, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' It looks like they are not sincere age and health concerns but political attacks with no consensus of medical professionals. In the last stages of an election campaign, I think it's just part of an expected full court press. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 14:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:That's a straw man. The topic is concerns, which have been found NOTABLE on the abundantly sourced wiki page from which the recent content and deletion originated. If it were a medical diagnosis, the lead of this page would simply state &quot;Donald Trump is the demented former POTUS and the demented candidate for 2024.&quot; But it isn't a diagnosis and nobody's suggested it is. There should not be a formal poll of any sort here. It's already under discussion and {{ping|GoodDay}} has provided no policy or content-based rationale not to include this summary of a relevant article, similar to many others on this page. Lacking any such rationale, the removal appears meddlesome and destructive.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 15:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :::Are you suggesting editors who oppose the addition, are disruptive? [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' - as he hasn't been diagnosed with having any such medical issues. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' - We are not going to use non-MEDRS soucres to speculated on someone's mental or physical health. We wouldn't do it with Joe or anyone else. It's also laughable un-encyclopedic. Also it should probably be an RFC to overturn two RFCs and a bunch of previous discussions that all found the same thing. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 14:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1232653181&amp;oldid=1232634293#2024_presidential_campaign]. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::Ugh, well we shouldn't. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 16:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::I don't see a way to &quot;unring&quot; that bell. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Not to point fingers or drag this out even further (see below), but &lt;s&gt;this&lt;/s&gt; (correction, see comment by Just10A above) seems to be where comparisons to the Biden article actually started. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC) * '''Yes''' See [[Joe Biden#2024 presidential campaign]]. &quot;After the debate raised questions about his health and age, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets&quot;. I understand BLP's require extra care, but &quot;concern&quot; doesn't seem to be [[MOS:WEASEL| weasely]] enough, as long as it's attributed in a verifiable context outside of VOICE. If the same rules that apply to Biden also apply to Trump, &quot;Refuses to release medical records&quot; with &quot;attributed concerns&quot; is where the bar currently sits. See &quot;More than 230 doctors and health care providers, most of whom are backing Vice President Kamala Harris, call on Trump to release medical records&quot; [https://abcnews.go.com/Health/trump-harris-medical-records-after-vp-releases-doctors/story?id=114822811 ABC] [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/03/health/trump-health-records.html NYT], [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-harris-medical-records-doctors-b2629175.html Independent], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-health-records-doctors-for-harris/ CBS]. Also see [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:And Biden did step down, is there any indication of similar pressure on Trump from within the GOP? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::It's not a qualifier as far as I know. Was the &quot;raised questions about Biden's health&quot; only allowed to be added AFTER he stepped down? Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::Well I recall making the same arguments there as here, and it all changed when it actually had an impact on the election. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::Let's look at the tape. {{tq|Looks like concerns about Biden's health were added on the 4th of July}} &quot;After the debate raised questions about his health, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets&quot;[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1232653181&amp;oldid=1232634293#2024_presidential_campaign] and {{tq|Biden didn't resign until July 21st.}} Did I miss something? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::NO, but I did, as I had opposed that in the past, and did not see the addition. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::I can see wanting to err on the side of caution, but the cat is out of the bag and fairness is the name of the game, and other such idioms... [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 16:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::So we could say then &quot;After a series of rallies raised questions about his health, Trump faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Republicana and the editorial boards of several major news outlets&quot;, would this be supported by RS? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::AFAIK There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar. Only that it must be based on what the sources say. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::1.) Do not substantively edit your comments after editors have already replied to them without indicating it. That is against [[WP:REDACT|guidelines]]. *:::::::::2.) I don't know how you can argue {{tq|&quot;There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar&quot;}} when ''just'' above that you argued {{tq| &quot;Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe&quot;}} and {{tq|&quot;fairness is the name of the game.&quot;}} *:::::::::I agree that policy doesn't mandate they match, but you gotta pick a side. You can't argue &quot;Policy says they don't need to be similar&quot; and then simultaneously say &quot;They gotta similar or else it's unfair.&quot; [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 20:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::@[[User:Just10A|Just10A]] If I acted improperly I apologize, as it wasn't my intent to mislead anyone, hence the clarification. I wasn't aware adding afaik is considered a substantive change. *::::::::::I believe my yes vote implies that I have picked a side. TMK I'm allowed to make observations and express views on the appearance of possible inconsistencies in the application of policy in good faith. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::::No problem. I was referring to you adding the ABC source in your earlier comment though just to be clear. I agree that adding AFAIK is more minor. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 22:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::::Oh, then I was way off on what I thought you were referring to. I was about to start adding TMK and AFAIK to all of my sentences. I meant to add the ABC source in my original edit, but I goofed. Truly sorry if that screwed something up, I've had similar experiences so I empathize. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::@[[User:Just10A|Just10A]] I would briefly add that, TMK the application of policy and the substance of the context being proposed do not represent two conflicting interpretations of the same policies AFAIK. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::True, but it also means they are not the same situation, which was my point, that they are not analogous. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *{{ec}} I'd like to see someone confirm what sort of {{em|secondary}} coverage is here, but [[WP:MEDRS]] is irrelevant here because biographical information is {{strong|not biomedical information}}: we should almost never include things like how a disease works or how it is diagnosed (except insofar to mention the subject {{em|isn't}}, when that's the case) on a biographical article in the first place. That is not to say we should not ask for the absolute best quality sources, but MEDRS is an inappropriate guideline here. Also, discussion on this topic will also need to consider how and where primary sources are used on the subarticle. Due weight concerns don't go away simply because the content happens to be on another article, and not mentioning something we have an entire subarticle on even once in the main article is close to essentially {{em|forcing}} the subarticle to be a POV fork, an outcome I'd expect neither those supporting nor opposing inclusion should want. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 22:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC) ::I also don't see how [[WP:MEDRS]] (identifying reliable third-party published secondary sources accurately reflecting current knowledge on [[WP:BMI|biomedical information]] (information relating to or could reasonably be perceived as relating to human health)) applies. If a majority of reliable sources describes the candidate's speech as increasingly incoherent and his [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/10/14/trump-music-sways-town-hall/ behavior as increasingly bizarre], it's not a medical diagnosis. Consensus 39: {{tq|This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office.}} [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC) :No. This is still a BLP. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 22:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Comment''' For anyone interested in additional details about &quot;[[Age and health concerns about Joe Biden]]&quot; being added to the LEAD of [[Joe Biden]]'s BLP, they appeared about nine days before he bowed out of the 2024 presidential race. It made it onto the LEAD on July 12, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1234038899]. On the 18th a CFN tag was added [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235217497&amp;oldid=1235161604], then removed [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235238577&amp;oldid=1235228593], then re-added and removed again on the 19th [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1235500273], back on the 20th [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235582523&amp;oldid=1235536174], removed same day [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235583325&amp;oldid=1235582523], then again re-added by {{U|FMSky}} on the 20th [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1235637630], then removed again same day [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235644630&amp;oldid=1235637630], re-added same day [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235725309&amp;oldid=1235695525], and finally within the next 8-24 hours he dropped out [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235877129&amp;oldid=1235725309]. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 02:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ::Let me clarify 2 more things then I'm outta here. First, I goofed again when I pinged FMSky, total brain fart that might be perceived as intentional CANVAS or sabotage, I'm just tired from editing all day and got distracted putting diffs together. It's no excuse it's just being honest, you can check my contribs. I doubt they would agree with my vote anyway. Second, I'm not saying this is a good reason to do the same thing here, I just think it's relevant somehow. Sorry if I screwed up, it wont happen again (here at least). Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 02:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Include'''. In the last 5-14 days since Harris released her &quot;excellent health&quot; report, there has been renewed coverage in RS about Trump's refusal to release his medical records[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/03/health/trump-health-records.html]&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=2024-10-12 |title=Harris releases a health report, shifting the focus to Trump's age and health concerns |url=https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/harris-releases-a-health-report-shifting-the-focus-to-trumps-age-and-health-concerns/articleshow/114175162.cms?from=mdr |access-date=2024-10-17 |work=The Economic Times |issn=0013-0389}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=News |first=A. B. C. |title=Trump would be the oldest person to become president. He's not sharing health details |url=https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/trump-oldest-person-become-president-sharing-health-details-114859051 |access-date=2024-10-17 |website=ABC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;[https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/despite-old-age-donald-trump-refuses-to-share-health-details-in-public-124101601405_1.html][https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/06/us/politics/trump-speeches-age-cognitive-decline.html] and the recent town hall that was even beyond the usual performance standard.[https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/despite-old-age-donald-trump-refuses-to-share-health-details-in-public-124101601405_1.html] Even after Biden it was mentioned [https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2024/07/12/voters-worried-biden-trump-age/74367988007/][https://pro.morningconsult.com/analysis/donald-trump-age-concerns-august-2024][https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/22/trump-age-health/][https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/07/24/trump-age-presidential-candidate-biden-us-election/] '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''&lt;span style=&quot;border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} :*'''Yes''', there is polling and Trump hasn't disclosed his medical records. :[[User:JohnAdams1800|JohnAdams1800]] ([[User talk:JohnAdams1800|talk]]) 02:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Yes'''. People say that it should not be included because there is no MEDRS-level source that lists Trump's health. However, this did not stop concerns about Biden's health being added to the Joe Biden page, nor did it stop the creation of the [[Age and health concerns about Joe Biden]] Wikipedia page. There is also an [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] page. Wikipedia is governed by the consensus of reliable sources, and multiple reliable sources have brought up this topic to the extent that an entire individual page on the wiki exists to cover it, thus the content is [[WP:DUE]]. To not ''at least mention it'' on this page would be a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[Wikipedia:I just don't like it|I don't like it]] through the introduction of editorial bias by having Wikipedia editors decide that the issue is &quot;not important&quot; enough to mention on this page, despite multiple RS clearly making the case that this issue is worth mentioning. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:58, 20 October 2024 (UTC) * Regarding the rally in Oaks, PA that's been mentioned in this section and in various news media sources, here's the full video of it from C-SPAN [https://www.c-span.org/video/?539179-1/president-trump-hosts-town-hall-oaks-pennsylvania]. I think it's been mischaracterized as age and health concerns for Trump. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 07:28, 17 October 2024 (UTC) * '''Yes'''! Its absurd having a long article [[Age_and_health_concerns_about_Donald_Trump]] with 120 references but trying to hide that in the main article. This is really a hot topic in the media (US and abroad) so deleting it here is really ridiculous. Especially with the [[Joe Biden]] entry featuring [[Joe_Biden#Age_and_health|such an paragraph]]. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 19:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ::''Comment:'' Amen to this. Biden has never been diagnosed with dementia, so it would be wildly improper to suggest that he does, per [[WP:MEDRS]], but we ''can and should'' report the widely [[WP:RS]]-reported ''public political controversy'' regarding the possibility of dementia, per [[WP:NPOV]], as it is politically significant. Trump should not be treated as a special case who is somehow privileged over others. &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 06:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC) * '''Yes''' for basically the reason Andol gave. There's a long article on these concerns, so we clearly have ample sourcing for them, so it's weird we're not mentioning them much here. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 01:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Support'''. The decline may not have been as obvious as Biden's because it started from a much lower baseline, but it was noticeable and noticed. Just this week, there was the 39-minute musical interlude at the Oaks, PA, town hall; the non-responsive rambling during the Bloomberg interview; [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/20/us/politics/trump-meandering-remarks.html on Friday, a 10-year old asked Trump] on [[https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-says-he-surprised-vp-kamala-harris-skipped-al-smith-dinner-terrible-decision Fox&amp;Fiends (at 34:26)] who his favorite president was when he was little. Trump said &quot;Reagan&quot;, then rambled on about Lincoln, the Civil War, Ukraine, Russia, October 7, buying oil from Iran, etc.; and at yesterday's rally in Latrobe, PA, where he [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/19/us/politics/trump-vulgarity-pennsylvania-rally.html &quot;spewed crude and vulgar remarks&quot;] and regaled the crowd with tales of Arnold Palmer being &quot;strong and tough&quot; and &quot;unbelievable&quot; in the shower, adding to the &quot;impression of [Trump] as increasingly unfiltered and undisciplined&quot;. Quoting the AP headline: [https://apnews.com/article/trump-arnold-palmer-closing-arguments-latrobe-pennsylvania-2bea9620c523e531a55259200215284e Trump kicks off a Pennsylvania rally by talking about Arnold Palmer’s genitalia]. [https://www.npr.org/2024/10/20/g-s1-29100/trump-pennsylvania-rally-arnold-palmer NPR called it] &quot;an unusually energetic rally for the former president, who has looked and sounded tired of late while doing multiple events and interviews a day across multiple swing states&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Gold|first=Michael| url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/19/us/politics/trump-vulgarity-pennsylvania-rally.html|title=At a Pennsylvania Rally, Trump Descends to New Levels of Vulgarity|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=October 19, 2024|access-date=October 20, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Bender|first=Michael C.| url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/20/us/politics/trump-meandering-remarks.html|title=Four of Trump’s Most Meandering Remarks This Week|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=October 20, 2024|access-date=October 20, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:50, 20 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} *'''Oaks Town Hall''' — (Good-faith [[WP:RTP|refactoring]] of distracting side issue was reverted. The following posts were in response to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADonald_Trump&amp;diff=1251650376&amp;oldid=1251639023 this]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ) ::It wasn't a rally. It was a &quot;[[Town hall meeting|town hall]]&quot; staged by the Trump campaign, with Republican operatives posing as &quot;constituents&quot; and reading off cue cards. One of them, &quot;Angelina who had voted Democrat all my life and was from a Democrat union household&quot; had to correct herself because she forgot to say &quot;union household&quot;; she's Angelina Banks who was the Republican nominee for Township Commissioner and State Representative in Pennsylvania's 154th and lost with 19.3% to Nelson's 80.7%.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Wolff |first=J.D. |url=https://www.meidasplus.com/p/busted-former-republican-candidates |title=Busted! Former Republican Candidates Posed As Constituents at Trump's PA Town Hall |work=[[MeidasTouch]] |date=October 17, 2024 |access-date=October 17, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=https://southbendtribune.com/elections/results/race/2022-11-08-state_house-PA-39234/ |title=2022 Pennsylvania State House - District 154 Election Results |work=[[South Bend Tribune]]|date=January 26, 2023 |access-date=October 17, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; Mischaracterized? The campaign had prepared 10 Q&amp;As but [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/us/politics/trump-town-hall-dj-music.html after five] the Q&amp;A turned into a [https://www.npr.org/2024/10/15/g-s1-28276/trump-town-hall-ends-with-extended-musical-fest-while-he-stands-on-stage bizarre musical event] with Trump giving a minion a playlist and then standing on stage not even dancing. Just standing, occasionally swaying, jerking his arms, finger-pointing at the audience, and making faces/smiling(?). &lt;small&gt;And, in keeping with the musical theme, two days later Fox unearthed the set of [[Hee Haw]] for an all-women town hall with an [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/16/media/fox-news-women-town-hall-supporters/index.html audience of MAGA supporters] asking curated puff questions.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 11:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} ::{{tq|I think it's been mischaracterized...}} You personal analysis of reliable sources is of no concern to this page. If the sources cover this as an example of the subject's mental decline, then so shall we. Not necessarily in the proverbial &quot;WikiVoice&quot; but as &quot;sources say.&quot; For now. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 12:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' There are no reliable secondary sources reporting that Trump has age-related cognitive decline, just speculation from his opponents. One editor mentioned that we covered this for Biden, but it was in the article about his recent presidential campaign. That's where this informtion belongs. It isn't possible to list every accusation made by his opponents in this article, so there is a high bar for inclusion. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 11:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC) :: Speculation from his opponents? You mean denial of his supporters? I think it is obvious to ''everyone except is supporters'' that he has massive issues. This is not a political campaign. It is a topic reported in international media all over the world, even making headlines. And everyone can see it. The only news outlets that don't report on this are the conservative media in US! Think about that. Greetings from Germany, where Trumps decline seems to be better covered than in (the conservative) parts of the US media. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 19:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC) ::Is there something askew with these sources? They seem to be speculating at the very least. ::[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/06/us/politics/trump-speeches-age-cognitive-decline.html NYT: Trump’s Speeches, Increasingly Angry and Rambling, Reignite the Question of Age] ::[https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-age-speeches-rambling-mental-fitness-b2625103.html Independent: Trump’s rambling and angry speeches raise questions about his age and fitness to serve four years] ::[https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-cognitive-decline-election-2024-b2593296.html Independent: Experts say Trump’s speaking style shows ‘potential indications of cognitive decline’] ::[https://newrepublic.com/post/182908/video-trump-cognitive-decline-memory-issues New Republic: Watch: Embarrassing Video Reveals Trump’s Alarming Cognitive Decline] ::[https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2024/09/trump-harris-debate-cognitive-decline/679803/ The Atlantic: Trump’s Repetitive Speech Is a Bad Sign] ::[https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2024/05/18/biden-trump-age-cognitive-decline/ WaPo: What science tells us about Biden, Trump and evaluating an aging brain] ::[https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2024-09-25/2024-election-trump-mental-acuity LA Times: Trump’s rhetorical walkabouts: A sign of ‘genius’ or cognitive decline?] ::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 02:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC) :::Reliable sources lose their reliability when they express politically motivated opinion and manipulation during a heated election campaign. Buried in one of those sources is a glimmer of rational journalistic integrity, &quot;...the experts in memory, psychology, and linguistics who spoke to STAT noted that they couldn’t give a diagnosis without conducting an examination...&quot;. Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:17, 20 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Not according to policy, bias it not a justification for rejecting a source, only lack of factual accuracy. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:27, 20 October 2024 (UTC) ::::: Don't fall for the bias claim. It doesn't make you biased if you report on those glaring issues. They are obvious. Rather the opposite is true. It takes willful denial, i.e. bias, to not see it. The whole point here is that Trump as a whole is such an abnormal person that he has shifted the goalposts to such a distance that there is no standard to measure him and thus he can get away with anything. And that is a problem for Wikipedia, because Biden is compared to normal people (making him look old), while Trump is compared to himself. Add the near-total polarization in the US, which has his supporters deny everything, even the possibility that there could be anything. Please step back and look up, how the Rest of the world looks at Trump and this election. It's not how the US see it. Trust me. 80 % of the population is in utter disbelieve how Trump with all of his glaring issues even got there, lest how someone who is right in his mind can even think a second of voting for him. And we do really debate ''if'' he has issues? Claiming he hasn't is biased, not the other way round. This is a clear situation where the truth is ''not'' halfway in the middle. Look at [https://x.com/harris_wins/status/1847767276998557876 this]. Just imagine Joe Biden or Kamala Harris being on stage bragging about the size of some dudes dick. The outcry would be thermonuclear and it would be broadly covered in his or her article in literally five seconds. Here? Thats Trump, normal day in the office, so what. Irrelevant, he made a thousand similar remarks. And that creates a systematic bias pro Trump, because there is no standard he doesn't fall short of, and therefore nothing is noteworthy, no matter how egregious. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 23:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' - If it was to be included, it would have to be introduced as mere speculation because of MEDRS, but I do not believe there has been any particulary significant RS reporting of speculation about cognitive decline as there was about Biden nor any substantive reason (like a drop out over it) to include it. Trump's speculated cognitive decline has only been popping in the news for the past couple months because he's now the old guy on the ticket, and Dems naturally want to capitalize on that. Not [[WP:DUE]] at this time. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC) **{{ping|R. G. Checkers}} And yet we have all the cites from mainstream media [[WP:RS]] cited above. Mysteriously, this sort of reporting is regarded as [[WP:NPOV]] when it comes to Biden, yet not for Trump. As Elon Musk would say, &quot;Interesting.&quot; Is there any point at which you might regarded the public debate about Trump's mental competence noteworthy enough to mention here, or are you just waiting for the election to be over? &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 17:48, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **:Yes, and it won’t be because he danced at a rally. It would be if there was sustained coverage over months long periods with concerns of cognitive decline or if he literally had drop out of the race because of it. But do I think that 3 weeks before an election with politics flaring and a sudden emphasis on his alleged mental decline is a good reason for inclusion? I answer no. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:18, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **::In other words, [[WP:DUE]] but not before the election? I didn't know WP had to adhere to DOJ guidelines. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **:::Is there some policy I'm not aware of that gives a waiting period, especially if your name isn't Joe Biden? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **::::That's not exactly what Mr. Checkers said. I agree that we should ensure the content is [[WP:DUE]] by waiting to see if it's a blip, or something carried through by the sources for more than a few days. Space4Time3Continuum2x, you are usually a stalwart adherent of both established consensus and conservative application of policy - what gives? [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 21:08, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADonald_Trump&amp;diff=1252267526&amp;oldid=1252231796 Last week happened]. &lt;small&gt;(I'm still trying to unimagine the unbelievable Arnold Palmer in the shower — a few extra nipples, a rudimentary third leg, a tattoo of Richard Nixon on his back? Although that one is on Roger Stone, I believe, another Trump friend.)&lt;/small&gt; This isn't new. [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/06/us/politics/trump-genius-mental-health.html NYT in 2018]: &quot;Trump's self-absorption, impulsiveness, lack of empathy, obsessive focus on slights, tenuous grasp of facts and penchant for sometimes far-fetched conspiracy theories have generated endless op-ed columns, magazine articles, books, professional panel discussions and cable television speculation.&quot; Now we have a flood of reporting on what was obvious for months for everyone who watched Trump rallys on C-SPAN. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::Your personal analysis or perceived opinion on what's &quot;obvious&quot; about political candidates is irrelevant to the discussion at issue. You're getting seriously close to [[WP:NOTFORUM]]. Quit rambling and stick to neutral discussion about the topic at hand to improve the encyclopedia. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 16:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::::[[WP:NOPA]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::::Asking you to stop violating policy is not a personal attack. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 18:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::This has been reported on maybe as far back as 2017. **:::::[https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2017/02/19/psychologist-calls-on-colleagues-to-sign-petition-for-trumps-removal/ 2017] **:::::[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2017/09/22/is-trump-mentally-ill-or-is-america-psychiatrists-weigh-in/ 2017] **:::::[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-dangerous-mental-illness-yale-psychiatrist-conference-us-president-unfit-james-gartner-duty-to-warn-a7694316.html 2017] **:::::[https://newrepublic.com/article/140702/medical-theory-donald-trumps-bizarre-behavior 2017] **:::::[https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2017-04-21/mental-health-professionals-debate-ethics-in-the-age-of-trump 2017] **:::::[https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2024-01-26/mental-acuity-questions-catch-up-with-trump Jan 2024] **:::::No one seems to be suggesting this goes into the lead sentence, and as far as policy goes, eerily similar material to [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] made it into the the Biden article as far back as July 4th, and it's STILL there. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 19:12, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::As is frequently pointed out to new users of this page, the fact that some other page on Wikipedia has a different consensus has no bearing on this one. That is usually understood when we are resisting putting something positive in, but seems all to quickly jettisoned when convenient. Regarding the Oaks Town Hall which precipitated this thread, neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources that Trump had some kind of mental episode. See for example: https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/trump-town-hall-derailed-after-medical-emergencies-crowd/story?id=114796716. I remain unconvinced that the content should be added. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::::{{tq|&quot;neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources&quot;}} **:::::::These threads get so long it's hard to keep track. Please link or cite examples of partisan and neutral sources to which you're referring if you get the chance, it would be very helpful. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::Judging by the headlines, we shouldn't use the 2017 sources per the Goldwater rule (psychiatrists/psychologists diagnosing people they haven't seen as patients). [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:45, 22 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::::Also, I may a bit confused as to where this thread begins and ends. I may be unintentionally conflating the Oaks town hall and the Proposal: Age and health concerns...Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 21:38, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *The 39 minute weird man-dancing (partly to YMCA, a song about gay hookups of all things) may actually be the worst example of his cognitive decline as he was quiet instead of rambling nonsense. Indeed, it could be an example of something not at all recent. It certainly doesn't belong in this article. Perhaps elsewhere. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 00:18, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *:Not sure if you've seen the unbiased raw video of the Oaks, PA event. On the webpage of C-SPAN's presentation of the full video [https://www.c-span.org/video/?539179-1/president-trump-hosts-town-hall-oaks-pennsylvania], to the right there is a list of the points of interest in the video: Gov. Kristi Noem (R-SD) Remarks, Fmr. President Trump Remarks, Affordable Homeownership, Family Request Congressional Hearing, Cost of Living, Immigration, Russia-Ukraine War, Immigration &amp; Deportation, Medical Emergency. Notably missing from C-SPAN's list is &quot;weird man-dancing&quot;. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *::What's your point? The C-SPAN video shows the entire event. The music starts at 45:00 and continues until the end. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *:::For context, note that the first medical emergency began at 39:00, 6 minutes before your start time. Viewing the video starting at 39:00 will give a better idea of what's going on. Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 23:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *::::I've seen the video and I don't see your point either. Trump just said that he is ahead in every one of the 50 states in the polls. Every state. His goofy, silent dancing was far more rational. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 00:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} What particularly irritates me here is the double standard of invoking [[WP:MEDRS]] in regard to this. No-one is asking for Wikipedia to state that Trump has dementia, or that he has suffered a medical cognitive decline; the issue here is that his increasingly erratic behavior has become a significant news story, and is being reported in reputable MSM sources such as the NYT and WP, who have bent over backwards to be fair to Trump, wouldn't have dreamed of doing eveen a few months ago. Yet for some reason, we're not allowed to use these [[WP:RS]] to report these events and the public concern about them in the MSM. This is a profoundly un-encyclopedic things to do that breaks the fundamental [[WP:NPOV]] policy. Rejecting any mention of significant major MSM coverage because you don't like it is just another form of [[WP:OR]], &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 17:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :But that is the consensus on this article. That MEDRS sources are required, even to have the conversation technically. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 17:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :: If this is absolute, then it could not be in the Biden article. But it is. Therefore there is no way to deny the pro Trump bias. MEDRS cannot only protect Trump, but ignore Biden. To me the deletion sounds politically motivated. And that is a major problem. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 20:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Andol|Andol]] Look at the top of the page in [[Talk:Donald_Trump#Current_consensus|current consensus #39]]. Nothing is politically motived. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 22:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I made a [[WP:BOLD]] edit to see how this plays out [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1253059503&amp;oldid=1253057147]. Maybe there is consensus? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 04:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I'm good with it and hope it sticks. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 14:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::Sorry DN, could you link to your change? I can't seem to find it. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:17, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::He changed it on the Joe Biden page, not the Trump one. I had the same confusion initially. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 20:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Ah. Thank you. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Please do NOT refer to me as &quot;he&quot;. They or them is fine. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I disagree MEDRS applies there any more than it does here, but I don't particularly care if it's in the lead or how much weight to give to it, so long as it's there. I {{em|will}} revert if someone tries to remove all three paragraphs about it in the other article though. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 10:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::An editor has now re-added [[Age and health concerns about Joe Biden]] back into the lead on [[Joe Biden]]'s BLP. I am not going to remove it, and agree that we should leave it. IMO [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] now seems over-[[WP:DUE|DUE]] here. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::Mx. Nipples, the existence of a section on another page has absolutely zero bearing on what should be on this one. None. We go by consensus, not by precedent. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 05:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC) {{cot|{{small|1=Off-topic about gender pronouns. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)}}}} ::::::::Please do not refer to me as &quot;Mx.&quot; or &quot;Mr.&quot; as that appears to be your intent. They/them is accurate. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{small|(Given that &quot;x&quot; is nowhere near &quot;r&quot; on a keyboard, I'm guessing &quot;Mx.&quot; was not a typo but an attempt to be gender neutral. It can be read as a convenient shorthand for &quot;Mr., Ms., or M-other, as you please&quot;. It's the best attempt available, since &quot;They/them Nipples&quot; would be nonsensical. Maybe we don't need to go any further down this rabbit hole, at least not on this page.) &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC)}} ::::::::::I simply asked for them not to call me that, I did not get upset or make a personal attack, I just made a simple request. I'm aware of what Mx. means and I simply do not wish be referred to in that manner. I do not care why you think it's any of your business or why you feel the need to intervene here, and that is a rabbit hole that certainly does not belong here. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::{{small|I read {{tq|1=&quot;Mr.&quot; as that appears to be your intent}} to mean you thought they meant (intended) &quot;Mr.&quot;. Sorry if I misread easily-misread writing. {{tq|1=I do not care why you think it's any of your business or why you feel the need to intervene here}} - Now you're gettin' me riled. Look, you comment on this page, regardless of the topic, and you open yourself up to replies from anybody. There are no &quot;private&quot; conversations here or almost anywhere else at Wikipedia. You want a &quot;private&quot; conversation, use email. That's how it works, like it or not. End. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:49, 28 October 2024 (UTC)}} ::::::::::::You're the one that brought it up ''here'', and I have since moved it to a personal talk page, where it belongs. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC) {{cob}} :::::::↑↑↑↑ Agree as to process. Other articles never affect this article ''unless a community consensus says they do for a specific discrete situation''. This is a common misconception, understandable given the human desire for consistency, but you won't find it anywhere in policy, and not for lack of attempts to make it so. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::That was more of an aside. See Riposte's removal of cited content on the current subject, referring to a now seemingly dormant discussion. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Yes.''' It's been covered extensively in media reports, which is the only criteria that really matters here. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 17:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Question''' [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253835469&amp;oldid=1253814840 edit] - There has been no further discussion here for the last few days. What is still being discussed? BTW, &quot;age and health concerns for Joe Biden&quot; was added back into his BLP in the lead, and I see no further arguments over MEDRS. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *:If you have a problem with the Biden page, take it to the Biden page. There is currently no consensus to add the disputed material to this page. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 05:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::I never had a problem with the Biden BLP, but I asked you what is left to discuss here. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:20, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::I'll ask again. What is left to discuss? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:27, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *:::I agree with you that there isn't a ton left to discuss. But the discussion did not end with your proposed addition achieving consensus. As already outlined in this thread: (1) [[WP:NOTSOURCE|wikipedia is not a source]], what occurs on a totally different page has no bearing on this one; and (2) Even if it did, the situations are clearly distinguishable. It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because ''it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race.'' The same is not true for Trump. Thus, since the situations are distinguishable and consensus has not adopted it, it's unlikely to be added. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 20:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::::To be clear, it wasn't ''my'' proposal, and the primary argument against the addition seemed to be that it violated MEDRS, not because this BLP needed to be like the Biden BLP. The Biden BLP was only used as an example of how the MEDRS argument didn't seem to hold water. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::::{{tq|&quot;It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race.&quot;}} *::::I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other? *::::Anyway, that content was added BEFORE Biden dropped out. *::::So, there goes that excuse. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::{{tq| I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other?}} We aren't. That's why I explicitly began the point with &quot;Even if it did&quot;. We don't use another page as a source, ''but even if we did,'' the situations are clearly distinguishable for the reasons already outlined throughout the post. The addition doesn't have consensus, so it's not going to be added at this time. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 13:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for the Oaks Town Hall to be used as evidence for concerns about age and health, especially in VOICE. Far from it. I simply disagree that there is any clear violation of MEDRS to include ''something like'' (below) *::::::*Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/22/trump-age-health/ WaPo] *::::::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::Well, that's not really what this thread entitled 'Oaks Town Hall' is about. Perhaps start a new one with your suggested text. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 21:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::Why start yet another thread? Seems like an additional time sink. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 21:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' - sorry, I missed this on the talk page. Now extensive and increasing sourcing on the topic. [[User:Blythwood|Blythwood]] ([[User talk:Blythwood|talk]]) 17:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *:Seems like the Harris campaign and news media have moved from age and health concerns to fascism. Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns? Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 19:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::Seems there was a YouGov poll and pieces in Time magazine and the New Yorker, recently... *::&quot;As the calls grow for Donald Trump to release his medical records, Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris called out her opponent once more during a rally in Houston, Texas, on Friday. She pointed towards the legal battle of Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton and other Texas right wing leaders to access the private medical records of patients who seek out-of-state abortions.&quot; [https://time.com/7099183/donald-trump-medical-records-absent-controversy-presidential-election-2024/ Time 10-27-24] *::&quot;Over half of Americans, 56 percent, said they believe that Trump’s age and health would impact his ability to serve as commander-in-chief at least a little bit, according to another YouGov poll conducted earlier this month. *::Over one-third, 36 percent, said the former president will be “severely” undercut by his age and health. Another one-third, 33 percent, said those factors will not impact the Republican nominee. *::Inversely, 62 percent of Americans said Harris’s health and age will not affect her work in the White House if she is elected president, according to the survey.&quot; [https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4955179-growing-concerns-trump-biden-age/ The Hill 10-26-24] *::&quot;couple of weeks ago, Donald Trump turned in one of his strangest performances in a campaign with no shortage of them—part of a series of oddities that may or may not constitute an October surprise but has certainly made for a surprising October. 'Who the hell wants to hear questions?' he hollered at a town hall in Pennsylvania, after two attendees had suffered medical emergencies. Then he wandered the stage for nearly forty minutes, swaying to music from his playlist—'Ave Maria,' 'Y.M.C.A.,' 'Hallelujah.'&quot; [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/11/04/trumps-health-and-ours The New Yorker 10-27-24] *::&quot;An increasing number of Americans say Donald Trump is too old to be president — but not as many as when President Joe Biden faced similar concerns about his age over the summer. *::A new poll from YouGov found that 44 percent said Trump, at age 78, is too old to lead the executive branch. That figure is up from 35 percent who said the same in a similar February survey.&quot; [https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-age-voters-mental-health-b2636214.html The Independent 10-27-24] *::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::Respectfully, there is no way this is going to get consensus here. If you feel really strongly, maybe start an RfC. That would probably be the most appropriate way to displace the existing RfCs. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 07:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::I was replying to Bob K3416's recent request...&quot;Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns?&quot; *::::Your declarative statement may be a bit out of place in this context, and brings up what appears to be an inconsistency. *::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253835469&amp;oldid=1253814840] As you also stated in your recent removal of cited content that is months old (clarify - irl - not the article itself)... {{tq|&quot;This is still being discussed on the talk page&quot;}} *::::What are the means by which to reconcile {{tq|&quot;this is still being discussed&quot;}}, at the same time as, {{tq|&quot;there is no way this is going to get consensus here&quot;}}? *::::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 08:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::Thanks for your response with the links. *:::::Regarding the rest of your message, the logic isn't clear. Various messages here are evidence that it is still being discussed and the point that you are trying to make with your sentence, &quot;What is the means...&quot; is unclear. For one thing, note that you are comparing an edit summary on the article page with a message on this talk page. Seems like apples and oranges. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 13:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::Darknipples has now edited their comment, although the argument isn't any more compelling imo. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::I was about to add (Btw I corrected my grammar slip) Reverting under the auspices of &quot;it's under discussion&quot;, gives the appearance of contradiction to the recent declaration that &quot;there is no way to achieve consensus&quot; *::::::Granted, I wouldn't completely disagree with Riposte97's removal of some of the context, but the rest seems like it could be DUE. (below) *::::::*Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates.&lt;ref name=&quot;Renewed scrutiny&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Kranish |first=Michael |date=July 22, 2024 |title=Trump's age and health under renewed scrutiny after Biden's exit |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/22/trump-age-health/ |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]] |access-date=13 October 2024 }}&lt;/ref&gt; *::::::A partial revert leaving this portion would seem fine. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::The second sentence wasn't in the given source. The insinuation of being in poor health since becoming a politician is contradicted by the fact that he served 4 years as president without any apparent chronic health problem or physical weakness, and he is currently vigorously campaigning for president. Be careful of age discrimination where healthy people are presumed weak and unhealthy because they are old. If you were elderly, healthy and strong, I don't think you would like people insinuating that you were unhealthy and weak because you were chronologically old. Be well. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 08:04, 30 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::{{tq|&quot;The second sentence wasn't in the given source.&quot;}} *::::::::Good catch, I pulled it from the edit that was reverted so maybe the citation might have been placed further in. *::::::::As far as &quot;insinuating he is in poor health&quot;, that is not what the proposal is about. The proposal was for reports regarding public concern for his age and health, that does not involve speculation or &quot;insinuate&quot; anything specific as to violate MEDRS. *::::::::*&quot;The age of presidential candidates has been a key issue for voters this year. A Washington Post-ABC News-Ipsos poll, conducted before last week’s Republican convention, found that 60 percent of Americans said Trump is too old for another term as president, including 82 percent of Democrats, 65 percent of independents and 29 percent of Republicans.&quot; *::::::::[[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 09:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::His age is already in the article. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 04:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::Water is wet. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Yes'''. There is overwhelming and [[WP:SUSTAINED]] coverage of it at this point; the fact that it is speculative (which some people object to above) doesn't matter, since we do cover speculation when it has sufficient coverage and is clearly relevant to the subject. As [[WP:BLP]] says, {{tq|If an '''allegation''' or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it}}, emphasis mine. For recent coverage, which someone requested above, see eg. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Americans are increasingly concerned about Donald Trump’s age and fitness for office|url=https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/50808-americans-are-increasingly-concerned-about-donald-trumps-age-and-fitness-for-office|website=today.yougov.com}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|first1=Rebecca|last1=Schneid|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=The Controversy Over Trump's Medical Records, Explained|url=https://time.com/7099183/donald-trump-medical-records-absent-controversy-presidential-election-2024/|date=27 October 2024|website=TIME}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|first1=Filip|last1=Timotija|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Many Americans worried about Trump’s age, but less than Biden: Survey|url=https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4955179-growing-concerns-trump-biden-age/|date=26 October 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=A growing number of Americans are concerned with Trump’s age|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-age-voters-mental-health-b2636214.html|date=27 October 2024|website=The Independent}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Trump would be the oldest person to become president. He's not sharing health details|url=https://apnews.com/article/trump-harris-presidential-election-age-health-medical-records-7bb8212c1024748371e43b85e137bae5|date=16 October 2024|website=AP News}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Trump acts erratically. Is this age-related decline?|url=https://www.deccanherald.com/world/trump-acts-erratically-is-this-age-related-decline-3250551|website=Deccan Herald}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|first1=Joanne|last1=Lynn|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=I’m a geriatric physician. Here’s what I think is going on with Trump’s executive function|url=https://www.statnews.com/2024/10/30/trump-cognitive-health-executive-function-biden-aging-president/|date=30 October 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;; for older coverage, there's a massive number of sources on [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]]. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 15:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Yes'''. See [[Public image of Donald Trump#Temperament]]. [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 23:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC) * I think it's time to close this discussion. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 03:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *:What rationale? Stale? Consensus? We need a rationale or we just let things fall off the page naturally. Of course we've just added another 14 days by merely saying this. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *::There is at least consensus to change Consensus item #39 (last modified July 2021) to allow discussion regarding Trump's mental health or fitness for office even without diagnosis. Biden's cognitive health has been in his article since 9/2023: [[Special:Diff/1175184377]] [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 06:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *::Uninvolved close sounds prudent. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *:I was confusing &quot;close with consensus assessment&quot; with &quot;close to get stuff off the page per consensus 13&quot;. Sorry Bob. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} == Another reverted edit == @[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] My edit was not whitewashing. It clarifies the view of the source, that &quot;research suggests Trump's rhetoric ''may have'' caused an increased incidence of hate crimes&quot;: a correlation, while not the opinion of the experts quoted in the source that it necessarily involves causation. As concerns the other edit, the &quot;clunky needless wording&quot; is a necessary detail. As it is now, it sounds like its saying that Trump dictated the letter to some secretary or whatnot, without the doctor present. In reality, he dictated it to the doctor, who told him what he couldn't put in it. [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 22:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 01:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC) ::I disagree with @[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]]’ assertion that your edit is whitewashing, but your edit is written in an argumentative matter. The previous statement states that the Trump comments highlighted were widely criticized, a plain true/false statement. Your “this is despite” implies your addition of text is a rebuttal to the general consensus. It is far from neutral and needs improvement. There should be more discussion on whether Trump’s implied clarification made soon after the comments in question as well. Do NOT edit until there is consensus. Hope this is helpful [[User:Slothwizard|Slothwizard]] ([[User talk:Slothwizard|talk]]) 02:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC) :::You appear to be confusing two reverts. This diff is the revert I'm talking about in this talk page section: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1251380654&amp;oldid=1251370072. The edit to the section about the allegations of white supremacy (which was also reverted) is discussed in [[Talk:Donald_Trump#reverted edit]]. [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 03:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC) ::::My bad. Your addition of Bornstein clarifying what he could not add was grammatically incorrect and unnecessary. Your second edit with adding “may” was not whitewashing; unfortunately the citations are not related to the claim, so I am not sure why that sentence is there in the first place. New sources or remove sentence; unless someone clarifies to me about this section. No editing until more discussion is made, would like to hear more opinions. [[User:Slothwizard|Slothwizard]] ([[User talk:Slothwizard|talk]]) 03:53, 22 October 2024 (UTC) :::::(Do we need to salute and shout &quot;Sir, yes, sir!&quot;?, or am I misreading telegram style?) Assuming that the edits in question are [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1251366835&amp;oldid=1251002499 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1251366835 this] one, reverted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1251370072 here], I agree with the revert. Bornstein: clunky &amp; needless. Trump rhetoric verified by the AP and WaPo cites: &quot;suggests&quot; says that the rhetoric may be the cause. If the sentence had read that &quot;research said that Trump's rhetoric caused ...&quot;, we'd have to say &quot;may have caused&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:00, 22 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::The detail is a necessary detail, citing what I have said above, but improvements to the grammar of the phrase can be made. [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 23:58, 22 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::I assume the repetition of Bornstein's name is what you are referring to when you say &quot;clunky&quot;. If it's the repetition of his name then which of these two do you think work? :::::::&quot;to him while Bornstein said what couldn't be put in it&quot; :::::::&quot;to him while Bornstein informed him what couldn't be put in it&quot; [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 01:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thoughts? [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 16:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::@[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]] @[[User:Slothwizard|Slothwizard]] @[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 19:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::I haven't changed my mind. None of the proposed changes is an improvement. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::Do you have any thoughts on the proposed ways to improve the problems with the proposed edit?[[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 02:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::My thoughts are that this happened a month ago and no one really cares. Your suggested edit did not gain consensus so, drop it and move on. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 03:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC) == fascist in lead == is attributed to ten sources in the body, {{u|Zenomonoz}} [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 05:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :Fascism is an radical extreme nationalist ideology controlled by a dictator, this does not describe Trump or his ideologies, he is a nationalist, populist, and protectionist republican politician, as mentioned in the lead, “fascist” in this case is being used to describe someone you dislike. [[User:Big Mocc|Big Mocc]] ([[User talk:Big Mocc|talk]]) 23:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1252842766 :I’m actually having trouble finding your statement, that some of the people who used to work for him said he's a fascist, in the body. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 05:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::Milley, Mattis and Kelly. I can add those. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 05:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I think [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1252830365 your sentence] is too trivial to constitute a mention in the lead. It wouldn't make sense to include mention of positive characterisation by his former colleagues, either. What am I missing? [[User:Zenomonoz|Zenomonoz]] ([[User talk:Zenomonoz|talk]]) 05:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I contend that (now) 13 references to fascist in the body is not trivial, but rather a very significant matter that is worthy of lead inclusion for a man who seeks the presidency. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 06:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I now added them to the body, so there are now 13 attributions, which I believe is adequate for lead inclusion, and the inclusion is not up top.[https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/10/12/mark-milley-donald-trump-fascist/][https://www.thebulwark.com/p/mattis-told-woodward-he-agreed-trump][https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/22/politics/trump-fascist-john-kelly/index.html] [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 06:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::[[WP:LEAD]] isn't about number of cites. Per current article ''content'' on &quot;fascist&quot;, it clearly fails inclusion in the lead. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 06:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::please would you cite the specific verbiage of LEAD to which you refer? [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 07:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{tq|the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents.}} Mentioned once in a series (described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, fascist) in [[Donald Trump#2024 presidential campaign|2024 presidential campaign]] is not enough IMO; populist and authoritarian are also mentioned in [[Donald Trump#Campaign rhetoric and political positions|Campaign rhetoric and political positions]]. However, it wasn't just historians and scholars, it was also people (&quot;my generals&quot;) who worked for him during his term in office (Defense Secretary Mattis, Chief of Staff Kelly) and Milley, who was handpicked by Trump for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the top military job — hardly the kind of people that can be smeared as &lt;s&gt;far-left&lt;/s&gt; radical-left lunatics. If that is added to the body, then IMO we should add &quot;fascist&quot; to the lead. I haven't read Woodward's book yet, and I still have to go through the numerous sources that were added recently. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :I'm ultimately against the 'fascist' label being included as it's been a subject of contention and debate for 8 years now. The debate is more nuanced than how many citations we can find with the word being included –&amp;nbsp;which is why we should link to [[Trumpism]] where this nuance can be explored in-depth. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 07:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::yes, fascist has been discussed for years, and many have been reluctant and resistant to speak ''the word'', but we now have three senior generals who served him speaking the word, yet the word remains buried in 13 references in the body. I am not persuaded that at this point exclusion from the lead would persist in any other person's BLP under similar circumstances. The sentence does not say he is a fascist, but rather that some historians, scholars and generals have characterized him as such, which is consistent with the body. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 07:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::Isn't Trump the [[de facto]] leader of a [[neo-fascist]] party? The main article on the ideology describes it as including &quot;nativism, xenophobia, and anti-immigration sentiment&quot; [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 07:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::We don't describe the GOP as being a neo-fascist party on Wikipedia. There are far-right elements to the party, for sure, but again that's why we can't extrapolate and say the ''whole'' party is neo-fascist and that Trump is their leader, therefore he is fascist. ::::The topic of whether Trumpism is fascist is still hotly debated, hence why a link to the article where that debate takes place is more appropriate. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 07:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Agreed. I'd also reiterate Czello's point that the lead follows the text of the body. Unless something stated in the body, it should be in the lead. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 08:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::waaay down there, the body says &quot;fascist&quot; with 13 references [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Trumpism would not exist without Trump. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::I'm not sure what argument you're making here. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 08:17, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::I see no cause to deflect to [[Trumpism]] when its source is Trump, so it belongs here [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:24, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Because the Trumpism article is where we can dedicate more space to the nuance of the discussion. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 08:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::I don't see nuance of discussion there and a short conclusive sentence here as mutually exclusive [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::The article is nuanced discussion from beginning to end. It's pretty solely dedicated to exploring the intricacies of the ideoloy and its leanings. The whole point of having splinter articles is so that we can dedicate more space to exploring these topics more fully without overburdening the parent article –&amp;nbsp;and, in this case, an article that is already much too big. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 09:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::I would be disinclined at the moment. If we're counting sources, 10 (or 13?) sources out of about 850 is worth maybe about a third of a sentence? I don't think it would be easy to appropriately contextualise that. Relative to the body, we have short paragraph, not entirely about fascism, mentioning it briefly. I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 08:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::Seems notable according to [[Steven Levitsky]] and the NYT...&quot;never before has a presidential nominee — let alone a former president — openly suggested turning the military on American citizens simply because they oppose his candidacy.&quot; [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/15/us/politics/trump-opponents-enemy-within.html NYT 10-15-2024]. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::So notable I do not see the word &quot;fascist&quot; there. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::DN, Do you believe Trump said that as depicted by that excerpt? [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Bob, SS, I was replying to Alpha's statement - &quot;I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully.&quot; I have not commented on the fascist label as of yet, so please hold your horses. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Bob. I have started a couple talk page sections with sources on authoritarian rhetoric. See [[Talk:Donald Trump#2024 campaign rhetoric &quot;The enemy within&quot;]] &amp; [[Talk:Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Rhetoric Section Fails NPOV]] subsection (&quot;The enemy within&quot; rhetoric). Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 23:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :Two minds this is a BLP, but it is an accusation that is out there, but does this take up a significant part of our article? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::My estimate is that less than 1% of the current article body can be said to address fascism or topics directly adjacent. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 10:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I agree with this analysis. As pointed out by @[[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]], it's the ''content of the article '', not number or variety of sources that determine what's in the lead, and the amount of the article that is actually about fascism or fascist-adjacent is low. I think most people on both sides of the aisle understand that this is primarily just a mudslinging pejorative term used in the course of politics. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 14:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Agreed, and that's precisely why it's UNDUE for the lead. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 12:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :Putting &quot;fascist&quot; in the lead, would be quite problematic. Indeed, attempts to add such a label shortly before the US prez election, doesn't look too good as it's likely to stir up emotions. In other words, the timing stinks. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::Arguments on DUE vs UNDUE aside, I agree that the stability of the article is concerning, and while these issues are separate, they are in no way mutually exclusive. This is the crux of Wikipedia's &quot;Achilles heel&quot; which puts a huge strain on admin and editors alike during elections. IMO though, it is an important discussion that should be held elsewhere, perhaps at the Village Pump. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 23:31, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::Historians and academics should be removed..... just American Media..... zero peer-reviewed academic journals listed as sources. &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold;color:darkblue&quot;&gt;[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]&lt;/span&gt;🍁 23:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::What leads you to believe the two are mutually exclusive? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::I'd usually agree, but with the assertions by the former Chief of Staff being the latest, this may be inching towards an actual, genuine descriptor of his actions and beliefs, rater than just a political pejorative. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 23:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::this is no longer about randos calling people they hate fascists and communists and terrorists and pedophiles and any other perjorative they can imagine. it's about Milley, Mattis and Kelly, top military officers he hired and they served under, in the Oval Office. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 00:55, 25 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Call me a stuffy academic, but I don't believe &quot;top military officer&quot; is a qualification that is of any use (expert opinion) for distinguishing what is fascism and what is merely other forms of far-right authoritarian populism. Leaving weight concerns aside, the attribution required would be entirely too unwieldy in my opinion. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 10:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Well everyone knows people who get fired arent bias. Plus its on msnbc, cnn, and others. It must be true. I really had to see if it is true. I voted for the evil orange man. Versus the hyena. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B]] ([[User talk:2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|talk]]) 03:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::According to [https://www.npr.org/2024/10/29/nx-s1-5164488/harris-trump-fascist-explained NPR],Kamala Harris said it,and Historians are debating [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 21:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{cot|{{small|1=[[WP:NOTFORUM]] and [[WP:NPA]] vios. At least. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)}}}} ::::@[[User:Soibangla|Soibangla]] Ironic that the very fascism taking root in America, expressed by the fascist sympathizers and enablers here (now echoed in Musk’s tantrum in on Twitler, I meant, Twitter…sorry, typo) IS the only reasonable explanation for excluding well-sourced and documented Trump’s fascism in the lead where it is MORE than [[WP:NOTABLE]]. If Trump’s own chief of staff, who was a General no less, says that Trump is the very definition of fascism, then what more do we need? Wikipedia remains broken as MAGA marches on. [[Special:Contributions/2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3|2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3]] ([[User talk:2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3|talk]]) 20:47, 29 October 2024 (UTC) {{cob}} == Trumps felon status should be added to his intro summary == This is literally done for everyone on Wikipedia except for Trump. This is a wilful hiding of information that is favorable to Trump and hides this important information from his google search summary. Please add, convicted felon to his intro to show an unbiased article. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3|2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3|talk]]) 15:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :is it? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :It is in the lead, in the final paragraph. A [[Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_170#RfC_on_use_of_&quot;convicted_felon&quot;_in_first_sentence|recent discussion]] concluded it shouldn't be in the first sentence. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 15:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :no, per [[MOS:CRIMINAL]]. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 10:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :^ [[Special:Contributions/2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881|2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881]] ([[User talk:2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881|talk]]) 08:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::yes it should be added plus president 45 and 47 :) [[Special:Contributions/2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B]] ([[User talk:2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|talk]]) 03:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :Please remove any terms referring to Trump as a &quot;felon&quot; or &quot;convicted felon&quot; from the lede and anywhere else throughout this page. Trump is not a &quot;felon&quot; or even a &quot;convicted felon&quot; until the JUDGE that is actually overseeing the case CONVICTS him and SENTENCES him. THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET. This is how the legal system actually works for those who do not know. :Any publication, news outlet or otherwise, is actually guilty of LIBEL for referring to someone who hasn't been convicted and sentenced BY THE JUDGE as such. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 01:44, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::Incorrect, per Wikipedia content policy. See [[WP:TRUMPRCB]] for elaboration on this point. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:57, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::More specifically, the policy at [[WP:BLPCRIME]] addresses this. It says nothing about ''sentencing''. He has been convicted. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::He has not been convicted. The jury has merely rendered a verdict. The judge can still throw away that verdict. :::Trump is not a convicted felon. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 21:46, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::And please refer to [[WP:SHOUT]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::And even Wikipedia's definition of convict says he has to be sentenced as well: :::&quot;A convict is &quot;a person found guilty of a crime and sentenced by a court&quot; Convict - Wikipedia :::AND sentenced by a court. AND, not OR. Because a jury cannot &quot;convict&quot; only a JUDGE can. If you want to know why Trump won, this is why. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 21:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::[[WP:CIRC|Wikipedia may not be used as a source for itself]]. Please provide reliable sources for your claim that Trump has not been convicted, or refer to [[WP:NOR]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::::This source good? Official Justice dept website :::::https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-609-evidence-conviction [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96|2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96|talk]]) 01:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::No. That source says nothing about Trump. See [[WP:SYNTH]]. Looking for reliable sources that say something like, &quot;Trump has been found guilty but not convicted.&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::&quot;In United States practice, conviction means a finding of guilt (i.e., a jury verdict or finding of fact by the judge) and imposition of sentence.&quot; :::::::That says it all. He is not a convict. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::You're [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/convict confusing the noun with the verb]. A jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts, i.e., he was convicted of a felony. That makes him a felon. The judge hasn't sentenced him yet, therefore he's not a convict, i.e., under sentence for a crime, which is exactly what [[Convict]] says. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 00:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I would be ready with updates for the 'Donald Trump convicted felon' part. Donald Trump's New York hush money case has been called off as the court decides how to move forward. The Trump Manhattan Fraud Case brought forth by Alvin Bragg has been stayed. It is indefinitely 'adjourned' as the Trump legal team moves to outright dismiss the case. More sources will follow this continuing development. [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14101607/donald-trump-hush-money-sentencing-called-off.html Donald Trump's hush money sentencing is called off] Daily Mail. &quot;The case could be delayed until after Trump exits the White House in four years or be dismissed outright.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 13:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::[[WP:DAILYMAIL|The Daily Mail is not a reliable source.]] '''''[[User:LilianaUwU|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:default;color:#246BCE;&quot;&gt;Liliana&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:#FF1493;&quot;&gt;UwU&lt;/span&gt;]]''''' &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:LilianaUwU|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/LilianaUwU|contributions]])&lt;/sup&gt; 13:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Here are USA Today and Bloomberg for more sources. There are many more. [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trumps-nov-26-hush-money-sentencing-in-ny-called-off-without-explanation/ar-AA1umZ9o Trump's Nov. 26 hush money sentencing in NY called off without explanation] Bloomberg. &quot;Whether Justice Juan Merchan decides the hush money case should proceed to sentencing, gets delayed for four years or is simply dismissed outright is an open question hanging over the president-elect.&quot; :::::::[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/11/19/trump-sentencing-hush-money-case-adjourned/76190286007/ Donald Trump's Nov. 26 sentencing in hush money case on hold as prosecution due to weigh in] USA Today. &quot;President-elect Donald Trump's Nov. 26 sentencing date in his New York hush money case is on hold as prosecutors face a Tuesday deadline to advise the judge on how to proceed in light of Trump's election victory.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 14:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::The only thing that might affect &quot;convicted felon&quot; is a successful self-pardon. Per policy, we will look to reliable sources as to whether that means he was never convicted&amp;mdash;our personal reasoning is irrelevant, as are (as I understand it) legal sources that don't specifically talk about Trump. Anyway, we are probably at least six months away from even considering a change, so this is more than a little premature. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I appreciate it. I would imagine the change will occur in under 9 weeks or before January 21th, 2025, possibly sooner. I guess it's a wait and see. Cheers. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 14:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I mean pardons can't erase historical events, just the present definition. If he self pardon it should be noted he self pardoned. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::&quot;A jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts, i.e., he was convicted of a felony.&quot; :::::Juries do not convict. Only a judge can do that. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == Adding links to the lead == I am seeking a consensus to add these links to the lead: #populist, protectionist, and nationalist --&gt; [[populist]], [[protectionist]] and [[nationalist]] #*These are specific enough terms that the average Jane probably isn't going to know a lot about. #*I have wanted to click on these before and couldn't. Why not just link them? #building a wall --&gt; [[Trump wall|building a wall]] #*This was a major part of Trump's 2016 rhetoric. #*There is an article on it. #initiated a trade war --&gt; [[China-United States trade war|initiated a trade war]] #*It's a specific and very important moment in his presidency. #*There is an article on it. What do y'all think? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 20:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC) :Blanket-'''oppose''' new links in the lead, per my opposition to steering readers from the lead to other articles, bypassing the related body content. [[User:Mandruss/sandbox|Lead-to-body links]] are a potential major improvement over no links in the lead, but that effort has stalled. That said, [[China-United States trade war|a trade war with China]], not [[China-United States trade war|initiated a trade war]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Support''', as these are useful and relevant links to the average reader which don't make the lead too bloated and provide value for those who want to read more about it. I'd also suggest linking &quot;[[Political positions of Donald Trump|his political positions]]&quot;. If we'd want to take a more restrictive approach to keep the lead clean, we could leave the links to &quot;populist, protectionist, and nationalist&quot; out, as these are links to general articles not directly related to Trump or his actions. However, the argument that we should try to avoid &quot;steering readers from the lead to other articles&quot; seems rather patronizing and not very rational to me. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 21:44, 26 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Support''' - helps the reader further understand the topic of the article per [[MOS:BUILD]]. The mentioned links are all important concepts for the article which the general reader will not be familiar with. --[[User:Guest2625|Guest2625]] ([[User talk:Guest2625|talk]]) 02:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose''' - We've enough links in the lead. Keep adding more &amp; we'll end up with a [[WP:SEAOFBLUE]] situation. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 02:47, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::This isn't a good argument, either logically or based on precedent. For starters, &quot;we've enough&quot; isn't argument, just a statement that means nothing without reasoning to back it up. Why do you believe we already have enough? ::And do you truly think the [[slippery slope fallacy|slope is that slippery]]? On ''this'' page? What is being proposed will not create any SEAOFBLUE issues, and this page will likely never contain any SEAOFBLUE issues in the lead for any lengthy period of time. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 03:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::On ''this'' page? Oh yes, the slope can be that slippery. PS - I still oppose your proposal. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:21, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose'''. See consensus 60, which, incidentally, resulted from the RfC in which you proposed ten other links. Seems to me that we've been heading down the slippery slope ever since because we already have several Wikilinks that violate the consensus (i.e., items that were in the lead at the time of the RfC, e.g., &quot;many false and misleading statements&quot; and others). And, obviously, items that were added later (e.g. felony convictions). {{tq|Helps the reader further understand the topic of the article per [[MOS:BUILD]]}} — reading the article and not just the lead would help. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:25, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::All you do is essentially referring to an old RfC and arguing that adding more links would violate the consensus reached back then, which is not an argument in itself. We gave valid arguments for why we think that adding further links would be an improvement. Like I already wrote, I think trying to force users to read the article by deliberately not adding links is quite patronizing and not very rational. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 14:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::Yeah, well, that &quot;old RfC&quot; is part of the current consensus, whether you consider it &quot;patronizing and irrational&quot; or not. [[WP:LEAD]] says {{tq|The lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents}}, not a collection of links to other pages. Nobody is forcing anybody to read anything on WP. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I know that this is the current consensus, and Cessaune and I are challenging it, arguing that adding the proposed links would be an improvement. So far, there has not been a single argument against including the proposed links; simply noting that adding further links would violate the current consensus is a mere observation, and citing this as a reason against the proposal is circular reasoning. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 15:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::1) I would tend to disagree that the RfC precluded the addition of new links. But let's assume it does. People such as yourself should've been jumping over themselves to revert. If people didn't/don't care to, then it couldn't have been all that important, or—my preferred theory—editors recognize the utility and don't see a problem with it. If, according to you, the outcome of the RfC has been effectively ignored by a lot of different people (including YOU, the author of a tenth of the text on this page and a quarter of the edits—someone who must've been very aware of this) that means... what exactly? Help me out here, because I'm genuinely confused. ::::2) If the consensus suggests that we are only allowed to add those links, I'm challenging the consensus directly here. So the outcome of the RfC is irrelevant. ::::3) Do you have an actual argument against adding the links? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 17:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::As to process, we have usually required ''significant new argument(s) or a significant change in the external situation'' to revisit an existing consensus. Otherwise, it's a simple roll of the dice that depends on who happens to show up; we could reverse the existing consensus only to have it restored in a few months after a change in the editor mix, back and forth indefinitely (make that make sense). Otherwise, it's a settled issue and time-limited volunteers have better ways to contribute than putting the same ingredients through the same machinery to see if we get a different product. It is not constructive to allow repeated bites at the same apple, and consensuses don't require periodic &quot;refresh&quot;. Unless you meet one of those criteria for revisitation, you and Cessaune challenging the existing consensus is no different from you and Cessaune having opposed it and ended up on the losing side. Do you meet either of them? (In this case, there doesn't appear to be any &quot;external situation&quot; [external to Wikipedia] that could change, significantly or otherwise. So that leaves significant new argument(s).){{pb}}By the by, the above reasoning is supported at [[WP:CCC]] (policy) in language about as strong as language ever gets in Wikipedia PAGs outside of [[WP:BLP]]: &quot;Editors may propose a change to current consensus, ''especially to raise previously unconsidered arguments or circumstances''.&quot; My emphasis. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:13, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I would say that the Abraham Accords RfC is where I stopped agreeing with this kind of philosophy. There were random, relatively frequent discussions all the time as to whether the Abraham Accords were DUE in the article, and all of them ended in 'consensus against' for literal YEARS. Until one of them didn't. I was very certain that an RfC wasn't warranted, and when one happened, I was somewhat certain that the outcome was going to come out as no consensus or consensus against. Yet here we are. This is a very similar situation. ::::What if I were to suggest that the want to lead readers to information trumps the want to steer readers to the body? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::::{{tq|Until one of them didn't.}} Did that one consider significant new arguments? I don't know much about the situation; had there been a significant change in the external situation that increased the DUEness? If either is true, that revisitation was warranted under this &quot;philosophy&quot;. If neither is true, the consensus change was solely due to a change in editor mix, which is precisely what we seek to avoid.{{pb}}What if somebody comes along who disagrees with the current Abraham Accords consensus? Would you support yet another revisitation, actively countering &quot;AGAIN??&quot; complaints, or do you assert &quot;settled issue&quot; when the current consensus is to your liking? Logically, those are the only two options if you reject this &quot;philosophy&quot;.{{pb}}{{tq|What if I were to suggest that the want to lead readers to information trumps the want to steer readers to the body?}} I was hoping to avoid this. If you were to suggest that to me, I would respond that you should pick up [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mandruss/sandbox&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1219737664 the ball you dropped in April] and get us moving on lead-to-body links again. They would serve both goals, leading readers to information while steering them to the body, and are the ultimate solution to this perennial problem.{{pb}}All of your three proposed items should be supported in this article's body&amp;mdash;else it's a bright red flag that the lead does not properly summarize the body&amp;mdash;so lead-to-body links could be used for those items. The link might need to be structured differently in some cases; for example [[User:Mandruss/sandbox|the current sandboxing]] includes: &quot;During the campaign, his political positions [[Donald Trump#Campaign rhetoric and political positions|were described]] as populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist.&quot; If we think links to [[Populist]], [[Protectionist]], and [[Nationalist]] are warranted, they could and should be provided inline in the body prose.{{pb}}Thus, lead-to-body links would both encourage and facilitate what are already widely-supported best practices.{{pb}}Too often forgotten or dismissed: The level of detail in this article's body will meet the needs and desires of many readers, who are not served by facilitating, even encouraging them to bypass our body. Steer readers to the body first, then let them decide whether to drill deeper. Some will and others won't, and everybody will be well-served and happy.{{pb}}Even if they choose not to read the body content, it's usually only one more click to reach the relevant other article. That effort may be compared to the effort of searching this massive table of contents for the body content elaborating on (and supporting) something you read in the lead. You think that's easy? Pretend you're new to the article and its ToC, forget everything you know about them, and try it for a few cases (no cherry picking). I think you'll find it's much harder than clicking a link in a hatnote at the top of a section you were just directed to. This equation may be different in shorter articles, which is why lead-to-body links should be nothing more than a local option; but they are ''sorely'' needed at at least one article&amp;mdash;this one&amp;mdash;and very likely others.{{pb}}We offer a hierarchy of detail&amp;mdash;lead→body→other articles&amp;mdash;and lead-to-body links merely make it as accessible as possible&amp;mdash;all of it, not just the first, third, and subsequent levels of detail. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::1) I actually tried to resume working on lead-to-body links, but I kept getting shut down by more experienced template editors and I still don't know how to solve the issue of switching text colors from white to black depending on the user's chosen theme. ::::::2) If lead-to-body links aren't an option, then what? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 03:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::1a) &quot;Shut down&quot; how and on what basis? 1b) Doesn't sound insurmountable to me.{{pb}}2) Premature question. As far as I'm concerned, they're an option until our best shot fails. We can cross that bridge if and when we come to it. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I'll ask again to see if anyone knows how to solve the theme issue. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 04:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{ping|Cessaune}} I suggest vagueness, leaving the reason for asking out of it if at all possible. Regrettably, many editors will find reasons why &quot;it can't be done&quot; (or will merely be less helpful than they could be) if they oppose the underlying goal/proposal. And this is not an issue to be resolved in template space, [[WP:VPT]], etc. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Also, for the record, I'd be willing to suggest that pushing this is functionally the same as pushing for more links in the lead, considering that efforts of this sort have been shut down before... [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 16:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::In my view, what we're proposing now is significantly superior to what has been shut down before (that's a whole other discussion). We've had more experience articulating the argument, so we do it better now. We've seen some of the major opposition arguments, so we can counter them before they're made. And it's had time to attract a larger support base, including Khajidha below. So I wouldn't let the past predict the future in this case. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;functionally the same&quot;. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose''' any and all links in lead. Full stop. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 12:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::Clarification, &quot;links&quot; here refers to links to other articles. I still think the experiment we had with links to the relevant sections of this article was a good idea. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 12:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::Do you have a justification for this? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 16:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose ''' [[Special:Contributions/132.147.140.229|132.147.140.229]] ([[User talk:132.147.140.229|talk]]) 16:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Support'''. This is what wikilinks are for. Arguments that adding links to the lead cause the article to be underdeveloped are quite unconvincing. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 16:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::'''Oppose''',we have a policy on this,Citations not needed in the lead [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 18:51, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::A citation and a link are completely different things. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 19:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::'''Neutral''' ,then,in that case [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 21:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == something feels missing on lead == By reading the lead, this is an exceptionally different read than other politican pages on wikipedia. It is almost exclusivelly composed of criticism. It feels extremelly strange that there is almost no direct analysis of how Trump won the US election. This is the only phrase that refers to it: &quot;During the campaign, his political positions were described as populist, protectionist, and nationalist.&quot; It feels so underdeveloped, indirect, as if it was avoiding the topic entirelly. Am I the only one feeling that this is an issue? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 10:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :No as the lede is a summery, the body is for more detailed reading into the subject. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:31, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :There are dozens if not hundreds of Wikipedia articles about Trump. His single-page, top-level biography is not the place to fully address things like {{tq|direct analysis of how Trump won the US election.}} Interested readers need to drill a little deeper than this article&amp;mdash;a task made very easy by the in-context links found in the article.{{pb}}As for {{tq|almost exclusivelly composed of criticism}}, read [[Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias]]. Since your comment has a little specificity, I'm opting not to close this thread per [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 61. Other editors are free to disagree, as always. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::Nothing against the criticism. Also I am asking, not even touched the edit button, so it would be kind of aggressive to shut the topic down immediatelly. ::I am not talking about fully adress, with &quot;direct analysis&quot; I still meant a summarization, same as it is done with criticism. ::I've read the link you are providing. It states &quot;Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires us to report the bad (negative) with the good (positive), and the '''neither-bad-nor-good''', '''in rough proportion''' to what's said in reliable sources, which in this case are '''largely major news outlets'''.&quot; ::I just remember that Trump victory was not an easy prediction, that it was very notable and widely analised by major news outlet. Just that. This is the main reason why the lead sounds weird to me. Like I said there is that phrase that at least refers to why he could have won, but it is very much indirect. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::Ok, but this can't go anywhere unless you propose specific change(s), supported by reliable sources. It's fairly uncommon for someone else to take up your banner just because you brought up the topic. If you ask, &quot;Who supports me on this?&quot;, the common response will be &quot;I don't know, that depends on the specifics. I don't support or oppose vague generalities.&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Sorry for the late reply. I couldn't edit in the past week. ::::I think it is a reasonable path to ask for other editors opinions before having a fully formed one myself to propose an edit. ::::I don't know what the best formulation would be to add a phrase about why and how Trump won his first election. But, like I said, I feel that it is a crucial piece of info currently missing. This feeling is supported by reading reliable sources at the time obviously. The fact that Trump won was arguably the most notable event of his life, full of social insights. ::::Also note, and that's what I found strange, that there is (as it should) a whole paragraph about that election already. Russian interference is noted, him losing the popular vote is noted, protests are noted, his campaign tone is noted yet... No direct mention or why/how he won. ::::Again, how do you, and other editors, feel about this? I am not asking anybody to take my banner, feel free to disagree. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The Electoral College. He won because of the Electoral College. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 14:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::@[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] thank you for coming to the discussion. That is already presented on the paragraph! It is clearly written that he lost the popular vote. ::::::Don't you think that one phrase with analysis of why he won could be helpful? Note that the lead for [[2016 United States presidential election]] is attempting to do something like that, with poor results in my opinion. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::No. The mechanics of the win is relevant to the election article and the article about his presidency, but not really to this article. Especially not to the lead. This is the article about Trump (the person), the fact that he won the 2016 election is the important part for the intro here. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 14:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Fair enough, is should be more developed on those two pages' leads. ::::::::But there already are broader social informations on the election paragraph in this lead. It mentions that Russia interfered to favor Trump, despite not being an action of Trump (the person), and the subsequent protests. How is a single phrase that directly refers to why he won less relevant than those two elements? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 15:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Just to further develop the very strange approach of this lead I want to point out how the very high quality lead of [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]] reads out. I am obviously choosing this lead NOT as a comparison of Hitler and Trump, but to showcase how even for an highly negative biography's lead there should always be room for social analysis. :::::::::{{tq|He was decorated during his service in the German Army in World War I, receiving the Iron Cross. In 1919, he joined the German Workers' Party (DAP), the precursor of the Nazi Party, and in 1921 was appointed leader of the Nazi Party.}} :::::::::This helps readers understand his rise to power. You could argue Trump's lead does the same, but I don't think it does. The references to his business empire don't connect at all to his political activities. :::::::::{{tq|After his early release in 1924, Hitler gained popular support by attacking the Treaty of Versailles and promoting pan-Germanism, antisemitism, and anti-communism with charismatic oratory and Nazi propaganda.}} :::::::::This directly connects his policies and style to popular support. :::::::::{{tq|Domestically, Hitler implemented numerous racist policies and sought to deport or kill German Jews. His first six years in power resulted in rapid economic recovery from the Great Depression, the abrogation of restrictions imposed on Germany after World War I, and the annexation of territories inhabited by millions of ethnic Germans, which initially gave him significant popular support.}} :::::::::This again connects his most negative actions to a complex set of economic and social relationships. :::::::::It would be very naive to frame lead writing as positive vs negative. The Trump's lead is currently avoiding any high quality summarization, shielding itself behind a fact checked style. I understand the difficulty of improving it, since this is a BLP and it will be challenged down to the comma. Still, the issue is there. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 16:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::@[[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]],Agreed,Wikipedia has to not take sides [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 18:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::this isn't that much about sides, criticism on lead are a good thing (per MOS) and are actually a big improvement on other politician pages. The issue is not having context (also required by MOS lead) to make sense of the info, even for the most notable facts as winning the election. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == Replacing the caption of Trump's 1964 yearbook picture == I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253907319&amp;oldid=1253846000 changed the caption] from &quot;Trump at &lt;s&gt;the&lt;/s&gt; [[New York Military Academy]], 1964&quot; to read &quot;Trump 1964 yearbook picture with medals borrowed from a classmate&quot;, with cite, and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1253907319 reverted] with the editsum &quot;Unnecessary and conveys less information&quot;. (I've since corrected the caption; New York Military Academy is a name like Whittier High School.) My proposed caption needs to be corrected, too: &quot;Trump's 1964 yearbook picture with medals borrowed from a classmate&quot;. It conveys more information than the current one which doesn't say that it's a yearbook picture; the name of the school is unnecessary since you can read it in [[Donald Trump#Early life|Early life]]. Borrowed medals: if Trump had been a member of the military, that would have been called &quot;stolen valor&quot;. {{cot|Buettner/Craig text}} If Donald resented taking orders from a contemporary like Witek, he still craved the tokens of status conferred by the system. Like most cadets, he had earned a few medals for good conduct and being neat and orderly. But his friend, Michael Scadron, had a full dozen by their senior year. On the day yearbook portraits were being taken, Donald showed up in Scadron’s barracks room and asked to borrow his dress jacket with the medals attached, Scandron told us. Donald wore those medals for the portrait, perplexing some of his fellow cadets. “He’s wearing my medals on his uniform,” Scadron later recalled. “I didn’t care one way or the other.” {{cob}} Vanity Fair [https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/donald-trump-status-military-academy published a longer excerpt]. It's the earliest example we have for Trump lying about his accomplishments/successes, illusion rather than reality. IMO that's less trivial than the yearbook picture itself. Opinions? [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :Either remove the picture or make it clear these are not his medals. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC) ::The detail about the medals (as reprehensible as it is) is not something that belongs in the caption. The whole affair should be covered in the article text.--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 22:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :::Agreed. Better covered in prose, subject to DUE as always. I'm not convinced it clears the bar, but that's really a separate issue that could be handled separately for the sake of organization. I'm confident you don't need to be informed that {{tq|as reprehensible as it is}} is irrelevant for our purposes; moral judgments are never a factor. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Yep, I was just trying to make it plain that I am not trying to hide unflattering facts.--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 00:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::::We should never need to explain ourselves like that, in my book. It's essentially apologizing for being a good editor. If someone suspects you of {{tq|trying to hide unflattering facts}}, that's on them. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:05, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::How about the caption &quot;Trump's 1964 yearbook picture&quot;? I don't think the name of the boarding school is more important than the fact that it's a yearbook picture. And for the uninitiated it sounds as though Trump was a cadet at an actual [[United States service academies|military academy]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::::{{tq|I don't think the name of the boarding school is more important than the fact that it's a yearbook picture.}} Omit the almost-obvious. Sure, he could've had the portrait made just so he could carry it in his wallet and gaze upon it from time to time, but that's not going to be a reader's first guess. {{tq|And for the uninitiated it sounds as though Trump was a cadet at an actual military academy.}} The adjacent prose says NYMA is &quot;a private boarding school&quot;. We're not catering to readers who just look at the pretty pictures and read their captions. And the only &quot;1964&quot; currently in the prose is about entering Fordham. So your proposal would be confusing, requiring readers to know that Fordham students don't wear uniforms. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Violation of [[WP:NPOV]], and not relevant to what is being discussed. [[User:Eg224|Eg224]] ([[User talk:Eg224|talk]]) 19:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ===Wording of sentence on Trump attending New York Military Academy=== :@[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] you appear to have violated the contentious topics procedure by reverting the restoration of longstanding content. Please self-revert immediately. :I note that the New York Military Academy uses a definite article when referring to itself. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 21:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC) ::It seems you have invented a designation that appears nowhere in [[WP:CTOP]], and even if it did, it would not apply to simple grammatical tweaks. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :::It's a 1RR violation. The content is clearly disputed, so it should be dealt with on the talk page. Again, please self revert while we discuss it here. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 23:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC) ::::One revert is not a 1RR violation. Please do not bandy about terms which you appear to be unfamiliar with. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:51, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Take it to AN. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:51, 31 October 2024 (UTC) I've now reverted the text to the longstanding version which wasn't the one I edited yesterday — another editor edited part of the sentence on October 16, so IMO 1RR wouldn't apply. The wording of the sentence is a separate issue from the caption. As for the school using the definite article when referring to itself, they do and they don't. (And does it matter? See Trump University.) Here are three examples for the school referring to itself and another private school the correct way: &quot;At NYMA, we’re dedicated to preparing you for the future&quot;; &quot;At NYMA, our partnership with Canterbury Brook Academy (CBA) significantly enriches students’ holistic development&quot;; &quot;The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;. And an example of the incorrect way: &quot;The mission of the New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;. (Not a typo, same sentence, once with &quot;the&quot; and once without.) &lt;small&gt; Names of colleges, universities, and other schools. Use &quot;the&quot; if the school’s title includes &quot;of&quot; or &quot;for&quot; (University of Maryland, Perkins School for the Blind). Don't use &quot;the&quot; if the school is named for a person or place (Baylor University, Harvard University).&lt;/small&gt; *Longstanding content: At age 13, he entered the [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school. *Proposed wording: At age 13, his father sent him to [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school. Reason: Trump didn't enter of his own volition, his parents entered him at NYMA. Kranish/Fisher: &quot;Near the end of seventh grade, Fred discovered Donald’s knives and was infuriated to learn about his trips into the city. He decided his son’s behavior warranted a radical change. In the months before eighth grade, Fred Trump enrolled Donald at the New York Military Academy, a boarding school 70 miles from Jamaica Estates.&quot; Gwenda Blair: &quot;In 1959, when he was thirteen, Donald Trump went off to New York Military Academy (NYMA) ... an institution that in the fall of 1959 resembled a child's toy soldier set&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :Re the &quot;the&quot;, can we agree that site-wide consistency as to the NYMA case is a worthy goal? If so, we need a single venue to discuss and decide the issue, which can then be easily found and referenced by editors of &lt;del&gt;other&lt;/del&gt; articles containing references to NYMA. I would suggest the NYMA article, which currently omits the &quot;the&quot;. In other words, any discussion of guidelines and other factors should occur there, not here. The discussion here should be: &quot;The NYMA article omits the 'the'. End.&quot;{{pb}}This is one of the very few situations where a different article should influence this one. Can I articulate the difference? Probably not. But it would be hard to assert &quot;other stuff exists&quot; about this; the &quot;the&quot; should be universally present or universally omitted for NYMA. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Edited 23:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::Although this is a minor point, the school itself uses 'the' when referring to itself using its full name, but omits the 'the' when using the acronym NYMA. Sources &gt; Wikipedia imo. See: https://www.nyma.org [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 23:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::{{tq|any discussion of guidelines and other factors should occur there, not here.}} Anyway, this article does not currently use the NYMA acronym. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::Not true. The school also doesn't use &quot;the&quot; when referring to itself by the full name, e.g., [https://www.nyma.org/ NYMA website], &quot;Leadership training&quot; section: &quot;The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop our cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;; [https://www.nyma.org/about/ NYMA website/about]: &quot;New York Military Academy (NYMA) was founded by Colonel Charles Jefferson Wright&quot;, &quot;The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Would anyone really expect a 13-year-old to have entered any school of their own volition? My opinion was neither sought nor desired when it came time for me to begin high school. I just can't see anyone interpreting the longstanding version the way you are worried about. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 16:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::The classmate he borrowed the medals from did, according to Buettner/Craig. I did, too, come to think of it (at 15, and not military school, though:). [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::Are you extrapolating overall reader behavior from a sample size of 2? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Yes! I'm considering a career change — Rasmussen pollster. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Where is the DUE case for &quot;his father sent him to&quot;? How much RS has discussed this issue? Key word: ''discussed,'' which does not mean merely saying that his father sent him. To the author of the source, that could be an arbitrary alternative to &quot;he entered&quot;, a matter of writing style. Beware of [[WP:OR]] and avoid reading between the lines in sources.{{pb}}I don't think two or three good sources would do it for me. Even ignoring the article bloat. Maybe four good sources. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::How about removing kindergarten and just mentioning that he attended school X through grade 7 and school Y from grade 8 to 12? Current version: :::{{tq2|He grew up with older siblings [[Maryanne Trump Barry|Maryanne]], [[Fred Trump Jr.|Fred Jr.]], and Elizabeth and younger brother [[Robert Trump|Robert]] in the [[Jamaica Estates, Queens|Jamaica Estates]] neighborhood of Queens, and attended the private [[Kew-Forest School]] from kindergarten through seventh grade.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA33 33]}}&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Schwartzman|first1=Paul|last2=Miller|first2=Michael E.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html|title=Confident. Incorrigible. Bully: Little Donny was a lot like candidate Donald Trump|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 22, 2016|access-date=June 2, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/us/politics/donald-trumps-old-queens-neighborhood-now-a-melting-pot-was-seen-as-a-cloister.html|title=Donald Trump's Old Queens Neighborhood Contrasts With the Diverse Area Around It|first=Jason|last=Horowitz|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=September 22, 2015|access-date=November 7, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; At age 13, he entered the [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA38 38]}}}} ::Proposed version: :::{{tq2|He grew up with older siblings [[Maryanne Trump Barry|Maryanne]], [[Fred Trump Jr.|Fred Jr.]], and Elizabeth and younger brother [[Robert Trump|Robert]] in the [[Jamaica Estates, Queens|Jamaica Estates]] neighborhood of Queens.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/us/politics/donald-trumps-old-queens-neighborhood-now-a-melting-pot-was-seen-as-a-cloister.html|title=Donald Trump's Old Queens Neighborhood Contrasts With the Diverse Area Around It|first=Jason|last=Horowitz|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=September 22, 2015|access-date=November 7, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; He attended the private [[Kew-Forest School]] through seventh grade{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA33 33]}}&lt;ref name=&quot;bully&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Schwartzman|first1=Paul|last2=Miller|first2=Michael E.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html|title=Confident. Incorrigible. Bully: Little Donny was a lot like candidate Donald Trump|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 22, 2016|access-date=June 2, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; and [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school, from eighth through twelfth grade.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA38 38]}}&lt;ref name=&quot;bully&quot;/&gt;}} ::This may be my bias talking, but &quot;entered the New York Military Academy&quot; has just a whiff of achievement, such as being admitted to [[United States Military Academy|West Point]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::I can't detect any such sense of achievement. Entering a school seems to me to be completely equvalent to &quot;began attending&quot;. I also don't see it as distinguishing the manner of entry (personal choice, parental choice, or simply iving in the district).--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 16:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::Sorry, but [[WP:NOR|your interpretation is irrelevant here]], {{tq|bias talking}} or otherwise. You are going beyond &quot;editorial judgment&quot; in my opinion. Show me the requested DUE case if you want my support. At this moment, I'd be happy with merely removing the &quot;the&quot; per above. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::For at least seven years, the sentence read (bolding added by me): {{tq|'''At age 13, he was enrolled''' at the New York Military Academy, a private boarding school,[6] and in 1964, '''he enrolled''' at Fordham University.}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1213766421 This edit] on March 15, 2024, changed it with the editsum &quot;ce&quot;. IMO, it changed the meaning. I didn’t notice it among all the other edits at the time. I only noticed it now because I’m reading Buettner/Craig’s &quot;Lucky Loser&quot;. OR? Sure, if reading RS and forming an opinion is the definition of OR. It’s a tad annoying when every source I found says &quot;he was sent&quot; or similar wording, and there doesn’t seem to be a single source for &quot;he entered&quot; (annoying enough for me to take my mind off next Tuesday and spend half an hour tracking the sentence on the Wayback Machine{{Oldsmiley|roll}}). ::::*[https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html Kranish/Fisher]: &quot;When Donald was 13, his father abruptly sent him to a military boarding school, where instructors struck him if he misbehaved and the requirements included daily inspections and strict curfews. 'He was essentially banished from the family home,' said his biographer, Michael D’Antonio.&quot; ::::*Buettner/Craig, pg. 63: &quot;But Fred had reached his limit with Donald. He sent him to a boarding school, a military academy north of the city.&quot; ::::*[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/classroom/daily-news-lessons/2016/07/donald-trumps-early-years-from-trouble-making-teen-to-military-school-star PBD]: &quot;His family eventually sent him to military school in upstate New York&quot;. ::::*[https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/09/us/politics/donald-trump-likens-his-schooling-to-military-service-in-book.html NYT]: &quot;Mr. Trump said his experience at the New York Military Academy, an expensive prep school where his parents had sent him to correct poor behavior, gave him 'more training militarily than a lot of the guys that go into the military'.&quot; ::::*[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/grab-that-record-how-trumps-high-school-transcript-was-hidden/2019/03/05/8815b7b8-3c61-11e9-aaae-69364b2ed137_story.html WaPo]: &quot;Trump spent five years at the military academy, starting in the fall of 1959, after his father — having concluded that his son, then in the seventh grade, needed a more discipline-focused setting — removed him from his Queens private school and sent him Upstate to NYMA.&quot; [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{tq|OR? Sure, if reading RS and forming an opinion is the definition of OR.}} 'Twas OR ''before'' you presented this DUE case. Now it isn't. [[In-joke|I must be from Missouri]]. Ok, you have my support for &quot;his father sent him to&quot;. And remove that damned &quot;the&quot; in the prose, per above, pending a change at [[New York Military Academy]]. Please and thank you. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC) Making sure this isn't archived — someone started another discussion (Inclusion of release of grades). [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:02, 11 November 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} == Please re-write the entire first section. == I have read more than 10,000 biographical articles in Wikipedia, and I haven't seen a single article which is written in a more biased, and pessimistic tone than [[Donald Trump]]. Please be professional and at least re-write the entire first section again in a more neutral tone. The entire world is reading this article and it must be written professionally. Thank you. [[User:Nir007H|Nir007H]] ([[User talk:Nir007H|talk]]) 10:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I agree. Its important to mention these things, but the bias on both this page and the election page as well as his campaign page, is widespread. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 10:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :How? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::Because all of them have paragraphs upon paragraphs regarding many '''allegations''', many of which Trump himself has denied. They also excessively refer him to [[Fascism]], and provide far-left and often non-reliable sources for these. Kamala Harris and Joe Biden have their fair bit of criticism, but this is rarely mentioned on their pages and when it is, its usually reverted or downplayed due to 'non reliable sourcing'. Keeping in mind Fox and the like should be considered as reliable as CNN and the like. Its overall quite biased. Dont get me wrong, these things need to be mentioned, but their absolutely has to be more weighting as to criticism of Trump and his Democrat opponents. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 10:28, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::Also to quickly add to this, it needs to be mentioned more that '''Trump has denied [[Project 2025]]'''. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 10:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::See [[WP:MANDY]]. The sources are what we go with, not Trump's own claims. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 10:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Left sources that go against what the topic at hand himself said? Wikipedia can be interesting sometimes. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 11:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Again, [[WP:MANDY]] and [[WP:PRIMARY]] are why we prioritise independent sources. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 13:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Completely agree with these criticisms of the article. Please see my added topic which includes three edit requests, for some proposed changes to the opening section. [[User:Neutral Editor 645|Neutral Editor 645]] ([[User talk:Neutral Editor 645|talk]]) 10:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I think that based on current consensus number 61, that you should review this link: [[Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias]]. (Not 100% sure though, so I will leave this thread open.) --[[User:Super Goku V|Super Goku V]] ([[User talk:Super Goku V|talk]]) 10:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Yeah. I hate Trump and am sad that he won, but this lead is just too much. It discredits Wikipedia's encyclopedic tone for the regular user. At least add a few positive things. [[User:Lucafrehley|Lucafrehley]] ([[User talk:Lucafrehley|talk]]) 10:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::Find some. We can't include things that don't exist.--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 11:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::Jesus you are literally a wikipedia editor. Your bias is what we do not need on wikipedia. :::For example we could add things like: :::The First Step Act, signed in 2018, aimed to reform the federal prison system by reducing sentences for non-violent offenders, increasing funding for rehabilitation programs, and reducing the three-strike rule’s penalty. :::the VA MISSION Act, allowing veterans more access to private healthcare and aimed at improving the VA's efficiency and accountability. :::Operation Warp Speed facilitated the rapid development, manufacturing, and distribution of COVID-19 vaccines, which reached the public in record time. :::just to name a few [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 11:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::As I pointed out in my own topic, this is not about adding &quot;positive things&quot;. Trump won an election in 2016 which was widely reported from reliable sources as a complete surprise. Those reliable sources tried to understand why people voted for him. The lead has no direct mention of why he won. While having mention of Russian interference and protests. :::This has nothing to do with things being positive or negative, there is a lack of social analysis that doesn't help to present a complex BLP. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 15:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I agree. I have never seen an article of this scale be so obviously biased and favored against its subject. This bias becomes even more distinguishable when you compare it to other articles such as [[Joe Biden]], who has been heavily criticized even by people on the left. For example, he faced a ton of criticism for the [[2020–2021 U.S. troop withdrawal from Afghanistan|withdrawal from Afganistan]] ([https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/afghanistan-joe-biden-donald-trump-kabul-politics/index.html CNN], [https://www.msnbc.com/the-week/watch/pres-biden-faces-criticism-for-afghanistan-withdrawal-119203397970 MSNBC], [https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/biden-s-afghanistan-withdrawal-speech-missed-something-important-n1276918 MSNBC again], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/afghanistan-withdrawal-republicans-house-report-biden-white-house/ CBS], [https://www.npr.org/2024/09/08/nx-s1-5105345/afghanistan-withdrawal-congress-report-trump-biden-harris, NPR], [https://apnews.com/article/house-republicans-afghanistan-withdrawal-kabul-abbey-gate-cdf9578d3fef6201ee44fafb5f5d5acd Associative Press], [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/us/politics/afghanistan-withdrawal-congress.html NYT], etc), yet that is nowhere to be found in the lead. Meanwhile, Trump's lead section will mention every bad thing he did, as well as the opinions of his non-supporters. The opinions of those who support him are not even mentioned. It just comes across as completely lacking integrity. ([[User talk:Not0nshoree|Discuss]] [[User:Not0nshoree|'''''0nshore's''''']] [[Special:contributions/Not0nshoree|contributions!!!]]) 17:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::I would not define it as &quot;biased&quot;, those info could be considered notable. But it is surelly tone deaf in trying to give social context to Trump success. Poor writing that actually doesn't even give a change to complex social criticism, for which there are many reliable reportings even from the same major US newspapers used in the current &quot;fact checked&quot; style. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 18:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Nobody rewrites entire first sections (leads). That isn't how Wikipedia works, and Trump would be dead long before we reached a consensus on such a rewrite. See [[Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::yea, I agree on that, a substantial rewrite is not happening soon. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 18:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :This entire article needs re-written, but the introduction is a total disaster. Even aside from the partisan hackery, it is a hodgepodge of incoherent sentences that look like (and probably were) added disjointedly as time went on with little to no continuity with each other. Most of them are factoids that are irrelevant to a high altitude summary of the man's life and achievements. Embarrassing. [[User:The Pittsburgher|The Pittsburgher]] ([[User talk:The Pittsburgher|talk]]) 15:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :Specific suggestions, please. It's nigh impossible to rewrite an entire lead section to everyone's liking. Simple saying 'rewrite the entire lead' isn't going to get us anywhere. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 15:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :The idea that a mythical &quot;unbiased&quot; lead section could exist that literally every Wikipedia would agree upon for such a polarizing political figure is absurd and preposterous. People act like shouting &quot;bias&quot;! is some kind of objective statement when it is essentially entirely subjective opinion. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 03:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ping|Nir007H}} There's only one way to get a re-write. You gotta put forward a proposal &amp; see if it will get a consensus. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 03:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :I may be drawn and quartered for speaking this heresy. I've long felt Wikipedia content policies are sufficiently vague, complex, nuanced, and self-contradictory as to be extremely vulnerable to the biases that we all have (anybody who claims to be without bias is either lying or completely lacking in self-awareness). That the policies prevent the effects of those biases is largely an illusion and a mass self-delusion. I've advocated massive overhaul of policy to simplify and streamline, and the silence has been deafening. Wikipedia's system of self-selected self-governance simply lacks the capacity for such massive change, and the [[WP:Wikimedia Foundation|Wikimedia Foundation]] will never intervene while Wikipedia is the most popular free encyclopedia on the web.{{pb}}If this article has been dominated by anti-Trump editors, the solution is more pro-Trump editors, people who are prepared to take the time to learn the policies and how to use them. [[WP:CONSENSUS]] is ''everything'' at Wikipedia. I've been saying this for many years and it seems to me a large majority of pro-Trumpers lack the energy for anything but arm-waving rants about fake news and the resulting fake &lt;del&gt;encyclopedia&lt;/del&gt; &lt;ins&gt;encyclopedia (a lazy intellectual cop-out)&lt;/ins&gt;&amp;mdash;merely following their leader's example. I say quit &lt;del&gt;whining&lt;/del&gt; &lt;ins&gt;whining, put on your big boy pants,&lt;/ins&gt; and do something that might have some effect. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC) Edited after replies 23:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{tq| &quot;It seems to me a large majority of pro-Trumpers lack the energy for anything but arm-waving rants about fake news and the resulting fake encyclopedia—merely following their leader's example.&quot;}} An astute observation that actually reveals the root of the problem: That's all they do because that's all there is to back up their POV. The lead is a dry restatement of dull facts, it only appears unflattering because the man's behavior has been consistently and objectively unflattering. [[User:Largely Legible Layman|Largely Legible Layman]] ([[User talk:Largely Legible Layman|talk]]) 16:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::I’d say it’s more to do with the polarisation of the American media, and one end/side being deprecated on Wikipedia. [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 16:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :'''Comment''' I generally stay far away from Trump related articles because of my extremely strong prejudices against the man. But as much as it pains me to say this, I think the lead is problematic. It reads like it was written by the DNC. Most of what is in there belongs in the article. But not all of it belongs in the lead. Clearly I'm not the only one with these concerns as there are multiple editors, in multiple threads on this page raising similar concerns. If the article wasn't linked on the main page right now, I'd seriously consider slapping an NPOV tag on it. Tone matters. The lead reads like an indictment. The laundry list of everything the man has ever been accused of is UNDUE and should be condensed into more general statement noting his controversial history, statements, legal issues etc. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 05:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::the problem is not the list of &quot;negative&quot; actions, which could maybe be condensed just to achieve a better lenght, the problem is that the lead completelly fails to convey why Trump is popular, how he got to power etc etc. It sounds tone deaf and devoided of social analysis. Look at the Hitler lead (not a comparison between individuals) and you can see how it can be done properly. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::I think that's a very good analysis. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 15:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I suspect that the lead as it is in part resulted from having too many cooks in the kitchen. Is there one person who can draft a lead for Trump based on the structure of Hitler's lead for others to review? &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The current structure seems decent to me for the time being, @[[User:Goszei|Goszei]] is [[Talk:Donald Trump#c-Goszei-20241107220400-Muboshgu-20241107215600|pointing out]] a good and clear path forward regarding content that should be added. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 21:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::It’d be so good if this article were actually educational [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 21:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Agree that this is the best step forward. [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 16:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :Support [[User:Castlemore7|Castlemore7]] ([[User talk:Castlemore7|talk]]) 14:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :I can imagine you counting the biographical articles you read like pushups &quot;9,998..9,999...10,000! Now I can finally say I have read 10,000 of those! [[Special:Contributions/68.57.163.100|68.57.163.100]] ([[User talk:68.57.163.100|talk]]) 04:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC) == lead is too long == lead is too long as it contains more than 4 para. Can we make it short ? [[User:Astropulse|Astropulse]] ([[User talk:Astropulse|talk]]) 14:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :this is by editorial design. the reality is that when everything is important, nothing is important. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 14:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::there are lot of other presidents and prominent article - where we have managed to put most important things in 4 para. 4 para is more than enough and everything else should be in body [[User:Astropulse|Astropulse]] ([[User talk:Astropulse|talk]]) 14:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::if you've a suggestion for something to cut then do so. waving arms and saying 'its too long, make it shorter' is a useless comment. [[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] ([[User talk:ValarianB|talk]]) 14:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I cut the last para. someone reverted it. Lets start by removing it [[User:Astropulse|Astropulse]] ([[User talk:Astropulse|talk]]) 15:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Why that? Why remove that he has won the election and is president elect? How does that accomplish anything? [[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] Reporting a problem and discussing it on the talk page is far from &quot;useless&quot;. Please [[WP:Assume good faith]]. If you want another editor to elaborate, a question could be asked without dismissing their contribution as useless. For example, &quot;if you've a suggestion for something to cut then do so. Which part(s) of the lead in particular do you think should be trimmed?&quot; That would be a more constructive rather than dismissive contribution. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Valarian did not say that discussing the problem is &quot;useless&quot;. They said that not being specific is &quot;useless&quot;. This lead clearly needs to be cut severely, and we need specific proposals for how to do it. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::You agree that the lead is too long. So saying 'its too long, make it shorter' was a correct analysis of the situation and the start of a discussion, not a &quot;useless&quot; comment. Other editors were actively adding to the bloated lead instead of doing what Astropulse did and attempting to discuss the problem on the talk page. Again, if another editor wants an editor to elaborate, that can be requested in a constructive rather than dismissive way. Calling other editors' comments &quot;useless&quot; without reason is not [[WP:Civil]]. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 22:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :I agree the lead is overly long. Already 7 paragraphs and he hasn't even been inaugurated for his second term yet. Checking other US presidents' articles, they generally have 4, at a push 5, paragraphs. Overloading the lead for Trump's article is an example of [[WP:Recentism]]. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 15:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I have attempted a bold restructuring of the lead, including some additions and removals of information, in these edits: [[Special:Diff/1255792425/1255793186]]. I understand that some elements of it may conflict with prior consensus, but as editors point out above this lead is a severe example of recentism. A lot more material is sure to come with his second term in office, which will expand the lead even further, so we should try to cut it down along the general lines of my edit. What do other editors think? — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 18:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Yes, the lead is disgracefully bloated. Compare it to our article for [[Joe Biden]], which has a neat and concise lead of four paragraphs. What makes Trump any different? [[WP:Summary style]] seems to have been chucked out the window. ~ [[User:HAL333|&lt;span style=&quot;background:red; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid red;&quot;&gt;'''HAL'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:HAL333|&lt;span style=&quot;background:navy; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid red;&quot;&gt;'''333'''&lt;/span&gt;]] '''(VOTE!)''' 18:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::With you on summary style, and you're far from the first person to say that (although usually applied to the body). Stick around and help make it so! &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::It feels already much better than before. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 22:31, 6 November 2024 (UTC) It seems an attempt was made to shorten the lead and the template was removed, then the content was restored to bloat the lead again but the template was not restored. The documentation of [[Template:Lead too long]] speaks of a 250 to 400 word standard. The lead section of this article is currently over 650 words! Trying to fix the problem of too many paragraphs by combining the excess paragraphs into gigantic paragraphs doesn't address the issue. Trump still hasn't even been inaugurated for his second term but the lead is substantially longer than other presidents. By my count, Trump's lead currently contains almost 1,000 more characters than FDR's lead, a man who was in office for 12 YEARS and is one of the most influential presidents in American history! This is purely recentism, we need to apply the [[WP:20YEARTEST]]. *For a start, the lead mentions &quot;After a series of business failures in the late 1990s ... He and his [...] six business bankruptcies.&quot; Are these separate events, or were some the bankruptcies during the 1990s? Couldn't these lines be combined in some way? [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 23:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :There are two sentences in the lead in particular which are not &quot;protected&quot; by standing consensus, and which editors have expressed an interest in cutting in various threads on this talk page: :*&quot;He and his businesses have been involved in more than 4,000 legal actions, including six business bankruptcies.&quot; :*&quot;The Mueller investigation later determined that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help Trump.&quot; :There is also room for trimming in other areas (why say &quot;racially charged&quot; when it is just a soft euphemism for &quot;racist&quot;, for instance), though I have seen some editors reverting these efforts for unknown reasons. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 00:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::I agree that those two are the two phrases that feels most out of place on lead. But to remove them there is surelly a need for two separates RfC. I also have a feeling the Russian interference will be preserved by an RfC, but it is interesting to see motivations for it. I guess that for american politics that is a major fact. ::I also agree on the racist part. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::To be even more clear, I find the paragraph about his presidency (4th) and about his trials and attempt to overturn (5th) satysfying. :::The issues are on second paragraph (not making a clear connection between his business empire and his shift to politic, or a misleading connection with his business legal actions) and on third paragraph (being extremelly vague and indirect to why he won) [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::Agreed. The lead's scope in general still hasn't adjusted to the election results. ::Consensus on this talk page seems to be that he was a failed, nepotistic businessman turned reality TV host, who won the 2016 election by fluke and Russian hacking. Then he became a failed insurrectionist in 2020 and found guilty of various crimes, generally an unelectable madman. Whether that's a right or wrong summary, the lead should adjust to the new development that he was elected for a second term as president. Most prior events become less leadworthy in the face of this expanding scope. ::@[[User:Goszei|Goszei]] Has there been a specific reason in edit summaries as to why we need repetition of the business failures in the second paragraph? [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 11:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == “First convicted felon as president” placement. == The Felony thing in like the opening sentence or second sentence I think is excessive, where it was before was next to the stuff about Stormy Daniel’s/Insirrection/etc. that is more logical, but someone reverted it and added it back to the first part. It’s one of those things where we gotta figure out how to level the weight, there’s a whole part in the lead right now addressing all the stuff so I think that’s fine but I would like to hear some unbiased consensus. [[User:Eg224|Eg224]] ([[User talk:Eg224|talk]]) 22:00, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Editors can argue DUE or UNDUE all day long, but the policy is sufficiently vague that, in reality, it comes down to how much one hates/loves Trump and how much they let that affect their Wikipedia editing. I hate Trump immensely (making me just a ''terrible'' person, probably possessed by demons) but I don't let it affect my editing. And this just feels like POV-pushing that high in the lead. I'm happy with it where it is at this moment, in what is currently the fourth paragraph of the lead. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::Yeah, I think it’s perfect. definitely feels biased to have it in the opening, the first president without prior experience isn’t as much so. I think that’s alright since it compares him to past Presidents in the next part too, and is talking about being the 45th/47th president [[User:Eg224|Eg224]] ([[User talk:Eg224|talk]]) 22:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::I believe you are making a mistake. He can not be labeled a &quot;convicted felon&quot; as long as his appeals processes are unconcluded. The fact that courts have granted the appeals indicates that they believe he has a chance of having the rulings reversed. [[Special:Contributions/99.33.126.209|99.33.126.209]] ([[User talk:99.33.126.209|talk]]) 05:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I believe you are mistaken. [[WP:BLPCRIME]]: &quot;A living person accused of a crime is [[presumption of innocence|presumed innocent]] until convicted by a court of law.&quot; '''NOT:''' &quot;A living person accused of a crime is [[presumption of innocence|presumed innocent]] until convicted by a court of law and all available appeals have been exhausted.&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Look, the facts are that Trumpty-Dumpty being convicted on felony counts will never be as important as his presidencies. His political career will be the most important thing to impart, not the tax evasion or fraud or whatever the hell it was NY prosecuted him for. Not to say that it isn't important enough to be mentioned in like the fourth paragraph, but his political career is the most important thing to note. Hate to get all [[Orwell]] on ya'll, but [[some animals are more equal than others]]. &lt;span style=&quot;background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;&quot;&gt;[[User:BarntToust|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7b68ee;&quot;&gt;Barnt&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:BarntToust|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#483d8b;&quot;&gt;Toust&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::A person becomes a convicted felon the instant the conviction is handed down. Sentencing does not matter. Appeals do not matter. The only criterion for &quot;convicted&quot; is the conviction itself. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 15:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC) The weight and emphasis given to facts in the lede should reflect that given in the body. Given the weighting currently seen in the body, a high placement is appropriate. If editors want to move it down, they should contest the weighting given in the body. That is the place to evaluate DUE/UNDUE. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :Thought experiment, not an actual proposal: (1) Go through the lead and make a list of the discrete topics therein. (2) Find the related body content for each item and count the words therein (i.e., weight), updating your list with those numbers. (3) Sort the list by descending word count. (4) Restructure the lead according to your sorted list.{{pb}}I think you'll find that your new lead lacks all structure and organization. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::It's true that the lede serves functions beyond being a weighted summary (e.g. contextualizing the subject, establishing notability) which gives it some structure and organization. I did intend to sidestep the wordcount weighting critique by mentioning emphasis, e.g. whether a topic is given its own heading, how high in the article/section it is, whether it is a summary or example as well as just the importance the article ascribes. ::On my broader point, what do you understand as the relationship between the lede and body re; [[WP:DUE]]? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::I don't. Frankly I think you're putting too fine a point on it, considering all the other issues going unaddressed, such as article length. We've been discussing that for years without significant progress. We need to get the body into summary style, gutting much of it, and we need more smart guys like you to help with that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:03, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Agreed that length is a very big issue. I also think if editors want to focus on other issues, such as emphasis, they should do it in a different way. ::::I'm working on [[Public image of Donald Trump]] at the moment before summarizing it in this article, I'll be interested to see how that goes before taking on a meatier section. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC) == 54. &quot;Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history.&quot; == A brief consideration: The sentence should clarify who these &quot;historians and scholars&quot; are by identifying the institution that represents them collectively or at least their nationality, per [[WP:WIKIVOICE]], [[WP:GLOBALIZE]], and [[WP:GLOBAL]]. We might also consider adding a footnote to mention the historians... Additionally, the sentence should also specify that this is an assessment of the [[First presidency of Donald Trump|first presidency]], rather than the incoming one, per [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]]. [[User:Pantarch|Pantarch]] ([[User talk:Pantarch|talk]]) 11:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :This is discussed in the body of the article along with links to additional info. Too much detail for the lead. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 11:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::Better to have many details than inaccurate ones. The sentence make an absolute claim, which is inconsistent with Wikipedia's policies. Whereas, regarding my other point, specifying 'first presidency' requires only two words. [[User:Pantarch|Pantarch]] ([[User talk:Pantarch|talk]]) 12:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::I disagree. Trump is in a bit of a unique situation (two non-consecutive terms in a period that is contemporary with Wikipedia). I think this sentence in the lede should be rewritten to clarify that the surveys and assessments so far so far were purely based on his first term as president. That of course can be changed again when there's a new ranking that explicitly considers his second term. ::Compare also to the [[Joe Biden]] article, where it has been generally considered too early to include the survey rankings until the end of his presidency. I don't think leaving them out here completely is the right way to handle it, but at the very least that part of the lede needs clarification. ::If that would be too much detail, I would even argue to remove it from the lede altogether for now until the end of his second term instead of keeping the current wording. [[Special:Contributions/2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B|2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B]] ([[User talk:2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B|talk]]) 18:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::I agree this is an uncited comment and should be removed , but since it is under strict protection that can not be done by anyone outside of a very small group, so it will remain until someone with this ability decides to do it. [[User:Washusama|Washusama]] ([[User talk:Washusama|talk]]) 06:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If we're removing &quot;uncited comments&quot; from the lead, we're deleting the lead. We cite in the body and summarize the body in the lead. See [[Donald Trump#Scholarly]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:02, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::When his second term starts we can change it to specify that it was his first term being evaluated. Until then, it is blatantly obvious due to the fact that it is the only term he has had. Your assumption that readers are too stupid to understand this is insulting. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 15:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{tq|we can change it}} Am I missing something, or is &quot;'''After his first term,''' scholars and historians ranked Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history.&quot; sufficiently clear on that point? The first four words were just added the other day, after a discussion which is linked in [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 54, per established process. How could the assessments apply to his second term if they were made after his first term? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:08, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I just think this sentence should just be removed entirely. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) &lt;!--Template:Undated--&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 07:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ::[[Wikipedia:I just don't like it]] applies. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::I just do not think a bunch of biased historians claiming something way too early is that important or too good for a Wikipedia article. I don't even think opinions should be in the lead to begin with. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) 09:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Everyone is biased, there's no such thing as an &quot;unbiased&quot; person. You are free to review the statement and source/sources provided and say &quot;they're a bunch of left wing partisan hacks and I don't believe them&quot;. That doesn't mean the views of people who study history and review historical evidence shouldn't be here. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{bcc|331dot}}I don't think this aligns with Wikipedia's [[WP:PAGS|policies and guidelines]]. [[WP:Reliable sources]] does draw a distinction between [[WP:BIASED|biased and non-biased sources]], and [[WP:SOURCE|Wikipedia:Verifiability]] includes types of creators (such as political scientists) as a [[WP:SOURCE|type of source]]. With biased sources, certain considerations must be made. This all said, the bias, and potentially its impacts, must be verifiable rather than simply asserted. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 09:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I have no problem with biases and opinions being in Wikipedia pages. They are in Wikipedia pages all the time. From reviews of various media to even awards given to people. I only have a problem when they are in the lead and given authority. Like how it is on this article right now. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) 17:00, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::: I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;given authority&quot;, but these are scholarly assessments in very reliable sources, and they carry with them whatever authority that implies. It's a significant fact about him that belongs in the lead. Only someone who is ignorant of his character and actions and believes the whitewashing from unreliable sources would doubt these scholarly assessments. The statement is accurate and properly attributed. It's okay. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) (PING me) ::::::: Those are your opinions. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) 17:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC) == Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead == It is natural that a large-scale real estate developer in the industry for decades would face a high number of lawsuits. It is worth mentioning in the body, but not worth mentioning in the lead. In the lead, the apparent purpose of this sentence is to portray Trump as a bad businessman, despite him becoming a billionaire and acquiring some of the most iconic properties in NYC. We already mention his &quot;business failures&quot; in the 1990s and shift to side ventures; I recommend removing the sentence on lawsuits, and then changing &quot;business failures&quot; to &quot;bankruptcies&quot; to be more clear. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :Source for any other land developer who has faced this number, and kind of lawsuit please? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::Looking into it, according to [https://www.usatoday.com/pages/interactives/trump-lawsuits/] close to half of the 4,000 suits were related to his casino, most of which were &quot;suits against gamblers who had credit at Trump-connected casinos and failed to pay their debts&quot;. Trump was the plaintiff in these (not the defendant), and won most of them according to the data. Another big chunk, larger than those related to his real estate, was personal injury, which is again expected when running a large number of commercial properties. He had about 600 real estate suits over a period of 40 years. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::Not what I asked, and does not support what you said. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :His involvement in litigation is a key part of Trump's biography. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::From what I posted above, a lot of the suits just seem like the cost of doing business in a litigious industry for 40 years; our article on it, [[Personal and business legal affairs of Donald Trump]], acknowledges that Trump won 92% of the suits. We have a lot in the lead about his later legal problems, but we shouldn't generalize that backwards to his business career. He was much better known for his Atlantic City casino bankruptcies than something like Trump University before 2015. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::Before 2015, Trump wasn't publicly known as &quot;that guy who got sued a lot&quot;, but as a fairly successful real estate developer who faced high-profile bankruptcies and later built a brand around his name. This is what we should convey to the reader. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 18:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::I completelly agree with Goszei here, it's a repetition that is misleading, unnecessary, and, even more important, take up space that could be used to describe how his real estate work connects to his rise to power. Goszei explained it to me in another discussion and is not conveyed properly in the current lead. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 18:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::But his dishonesty also helps explain his rise to power. Again we need sources saying this is not unusual, not editors OR. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 18:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::::You interpreting that sentence as &quot;Trump gained his wealth through dishonesty&quot; is complete POV and exactly what I am referring to when I said the figure alone misleads readers. As I showed above, the reality is more complex (the vast majority of the suits weren't related to any kind of fraud on Trump's part, and he won 92% of them). — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 19:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Agreed. That should definitely go. The whole business part of the lead is full of useless trivia. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 22:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::We have a whole page on it: [[Business career of Donald Trump]]. It is only appropriate for it to be at least a sentence in the lead of his bio. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 22:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::We should include details on his business career insofar as it explains to readers how Trump became rich (&quot;building and renovating skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses&quot;) and became a household name (licensing his name and hosting ''The Apprentice''), which are directly relevant to his rise to political power. Mentioning the number of lawsuits he had is not relevant to this purpose. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Agree this sentence in the lead should be removed. [[User:Basil the Bat Lord|Basil the Bat Lord]] ([[User talk:Basil the Bat Lord|talk]]) 05:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::When I talk about an edit, I am implying by default it coming from RS. :::::I just think that the connection between him building businnes in NY and his rise to power should be made more explicit, in the case that it is supported by RS. Just talking about golf courses and hotel doesn't make it clear enough. And the number of lawsuits further make it more misleading because it seems like he went to politics because he was poor and failing. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}} Hadn't noticed this discussion — two days after the election, all hell breaking loose in the article and on this talk page. Trump's business failures, including the bankruptcies, are a defining part of his biography and lead-worthy. Since you mentioned casinos and gamblers: it's not a sign of great business acumen when you build a casino next door to your own casino and poach patrons from yourself or when you give credit to patrons so that they gamble with our own money. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tq|when you give credit to patrons so that they gamble with our own money}}. This is established practice in the gambling industry, anyone who has tried to watch a sporting event recently has been bombarded with 'free bet' ads. The calculation being that most people are losers and getting them in the door is more valuable to the casino/sportsbook than the value of the credit/'free bet'. Regardless, declaring a casino or other business bankrupt isn't that relevant to the article that it should have multiple lines in the lead of an article about a two-term president. We can surely summarise that business failure/bankruptcies content in one line. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 11:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :To the uninitiated reader, this sentence suggests that Trump by the time of his first presidential run was a failed businessman who was absolutely drowning in lawsuits. However, a good chunk of Trump's popularity in 2016 came from the widespread view that he was a successful real estate mogul, and an icon of the &quot;glory days&quot; of American capitalism in the 1980s. The truth of course is more nuanced (we have many, many words in the article on questions about his true net worth, for example), and I understand the impulse to hint that his business career wasn't as spotless as people perceived, but this specific fact just misleads the reader. We don't even mention his billionaire status in the lead, or have a few words about his changing political affiliations, both of which are far more relevant to understanding his &quot;pitch&quot; to the American public and rise. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 03:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::Again, Goszei is right. The current formulation is misleading. It is also inderectly suggesting that Trump went to politics because he was failing in business. All of this crucially misses the points of his political rise. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::I had not read the current new version of the lead, I did now. It is very good on its shortening on the informations and critiques. I wouldn't cut out anything else at this point. :::But it is still missing any kind of information (both contextual and direct) about how and why Trump became popular as a politician. They can all find their place on the second paragraph, a couple of sentences could be enough. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::For exemple, it's a shame that those two diffs [[Https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&amp;oldid=1257901326|two]] [[Https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&amp;oldid=1257905963|diffs]] from Goszei didn't stand. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:28, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Trump wasn't a billionaire in the 80s, the article doesn't make that claim, and, if there are any reliable sources for the claim, Goszei should have added the material and the sources to the body. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Interesting, thank you for replying. I have actually took the time to read the body and more in [[Wealth of Donald Trump]]. It basically looks like he lied in tax returns to downplay his worth, and boosting his net worth to the public to increase his popularity. Before the 2016 election, there are multiple sources that estimate him at around 2-3 billions. It's a complex dinamic of debt and wealth that could be wrote out better in the lead, especially if it relates to his political rise. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::This is a fair point. The lead has changed a lot (in a positive direction) over the last few days, and I think I am satisfied with just mentioning that Trump &quot;focused on luxury accommodation&quot; (shortened from the previous list of &quot;skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses&quot;) because it gets across the personal brand of wealth and luxury that he was well-known for, without treading into the contentious territory about his net worth. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 19:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Personally I do not think that the second paragraph is satysfying as is regarding his business aspect. There is something missing to outline how the business relates to his political career. Your latest additions are spot on. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I mean the connection is there, luxury (mainly in NY?) and a succesfull tv show. But I actually don't know if that's what made him able to launch his campaign, also why the idea of even trying it arose. I hoped to find some analysis of it that at least could lead to a sentence that explains the connection, but maybe there isn't. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ===Broader critique of the lead and article=== To be honest, I believe content like this in this lead, as well as a continued focus on it within the article, represents us sticking our heads in the sand as editors. We are now far beyond the 2016 election, when points like this were used to attack Trump by his political opponents, and have entered a stage where he is bringing about a generational re-alignment in American politics. This lead, this article, and this encyclopedia should seek to clearly explain ''why'' Trump appealed to the electorate in 2016 and why he continues to do so, and explain the roots of his movement, which has only grown over the last 8 years. In many places, we miss the forest for the trees: as many political scientists and historians have concluded, Trump won not because he was racist and his voters were too, but because his message exploited an absence within the political establishment of anyone speaking to the interests of the population. We need to weave his ascendancy together with the facts of 40 years of stagnant wages, the financial crash of 2008, the abandonment of the Rust Belt, and the declining living standards of the working class. I write a lot of this up to [[WP:RECENTISM]], but now that he was elected a second time, it is clear that he isn't an aberration but a key figure in U.S. history, and our encyclopedia should reflect this. Perhaps I am asking too much for the nature of this project, but I think this is important, and hope this article improves along these lines in the years of chaos to come. Rant over. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) :That clarifies this for me. We are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and we are not (despite what some believe) his political opponents. We are taking a holistic view of Trump's life and career. He received significant coverage going back to the 1970s. We don't stop talking about past events just because of [[WP:RECENTISM]]. That includes his lawsuits and business failures, as well as the successes. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::A necessary element of taking a holistic view on someone's life is that the view changes with new events, which open new perspectives on what in their life is relevant and what is not. In the narrow sense of editing this article's lead, in my opinion this means focusing on why he gained power in 2016 and now in 2024 and the bases of his mass movement. To me, wasting words on the comparatively trivial matter of his business lawsuits is not part of that overarching goal. If he was just a businessman, yes, but not for who he has become. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 22:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::Fair point. I do believe that the political activities from 2015 on need to be rewritten because of the unavoidable RECENTISM. But, any proper biography of Trump will include his business career, which was substantial and covered in the press and has led him to where he is. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 23:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::More and more RS on the deeper, long-term socio-economic and political trends which I described above are sure to be released and get added to this article. I only ask that editors keep an open mind and adapt to changing conditions within the RS. Much of this article's trivial content, almost all based on nearsighted and shallow analysis of contemporaneous news coverage, will need to be aggressively cut and replaced by the good stuff. Again, this is RECENTISM and will be fixed over time, hopefully sooner rather than later. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 18:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::I could not agree more with Goszei. I have been trying [[Talk:Donald Trump#something feels missing on lead|to say the same]] for a few days. Glad I am not the only one noticing the need for improvement. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 21:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] this and other discussion is where Goszei and others have been trying to argument in favor of a direct addition of the elements you removed from the lead. Goszei found a very concise prose in my opinion, which makes the second paragraph feel more complete and makes the connection to how/why Trump won in the third paragraph. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 23:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC) == Conflict of interest section == &quot;During Trump's term in office, he visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days, one visit for every 3.4 days of his presidency&quot; This includes his private residences, such as Mar-a-lago. This does not necessarily equate to a conflict of interest and should not be in the section. This might be substantial evidence enough for political op-eds, but not Wikipedia. It could be phrased like 'Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties'. In-fact, alot of this article could be written in a manner similar to this. [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C|2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C|talk]]) 07:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :The source does not say &quot;Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties&quot;. It does, however, exactly say &quot;Trump has visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days of his presidency, or one visit every 3.4 days. That means that he has visited on about two days of every week of his presidency.&quot; What you are saying it should be changed to is [[WP:OR]] and potentially [[WP:SYNTH]]. Unless, of course, you can provide a source that directly states it. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd&quot;&gt;SmittenGalaxy&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold&quot;&gt;&amp;#124;&lt;/span&gt; [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-style:italic; color:#000080&quot;&gt;talk!&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::I am having some difficulty parsing this source. The main thrust of mentioning his visits to the private properties is that it was leisure when he said he would be busy, and that it was costly to the taxpayer to have him travel there. It seems to be a slightly unnatural reading to say him visiting a property every 3.4 days constitutes a conflict of interest. Tell me if I'm wrong. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 07:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::It relates to earlier in the paragraph, talking about how he was sued for violation of the [[Domestic Emoluments Clause]] and [[Foreign Emoluments Clause]]. It does read a bit strange when you only read that specific part of the source; it does go on later to explain more about this, so if anything, it should be expanded to include that as opposed to removed. I will however leave that to someone more experienced than me. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd&quot;&gt;SmittenGalaxy&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold&quot;&gt;&amp;#124;&lt;/span&gt; [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-style:italic; color:#000080&quot;&gt;talk!&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I think it's too SYNTHY to use it as evidence of him violating those clauses unless a RS makes that connection. What do you think? Or just slap on a {{context needed}} and leave it at that? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::That's probably the best option for now, if it weren't as late I'd probably go in and rework that section myself. But it seems sufficient to me. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd&quot;&gt;SmittenGalaxy&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold&quot;&gt;&amp;#124;&lt;/span&gt; [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-style:italic; color:#000080&quot;&gt;talk!&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1256116394&amp;oldid=1256116195 Added it in] [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Well, for one thing, he significantly overcharged the Secret Service for using his properties when they had no choice but to be there.[https://www.npr.org/2022/10/17/1129491352/trump-hotels-overcharged-secret-service-agents][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/18/trump-overcharge-secret-service-hotel] &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 14:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thanks for this context. It does seem a bit small-fry compared to the other controversies listed. Why do you think a mention would not be UNDUE? You're more familiar with this page than I. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 15:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Trump overcharging the Secret Service demonstrates his attempts to enrich himself off of the presidency, and there are sources for this throughout the time of his first campaign, presidency, and Biden's presidency. Above I provided a source from 2022 and one from 2024. Here's one from [https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/donald-trump-secret-service-campaign-travel-payments-228553 2016], one from [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41005868 2017], and one from [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/feds-spend-70k-trump-hotel-scotland/story?id=56675168 2018]. It's certainly DUE for a sentence in the body. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Unless I've missed it, none of those sources allege Trump was overcharging. Each just notes that the USSS reimburses private entities for the cost of bringing them around, but the difference in the Trump case is that he typically owns the private planes, hotels, etc, to which the reimbursements are paid. A storm in a teacup. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 22:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Would you kindly briefly summarise the sources you mention and explain how you would use them? Thank you, [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 14:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Deceptive claim and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1256155368 deceptive edit]. The 2022 source is about allegations in a letter by House oversight committee chair, a Democrat. The 2024 source is about a House oversight committee minority report. The minority of Democrats does not represent the committee as a whole. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 19:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Deception is not my intent, nor is it an assumption of good faith in your part to suggest I am trying to deceive anyone. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 23:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::I made no such suggestion. By &quot;deceptive&quot; I mean &quot;misleading&quot;. I have not ascribed any motive, just stated the obvious. AGF works both ways. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 14:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::&quot;Deception&quot; implies intent. There's no AGF on vocabulary, unless English is not your first language. That I do not know. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::Please just stop. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 15:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::When you're more careful in the language you use, I'll stop. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I do think the content you tagged should be removed as improper synthesis, as explained. Removing the tag certainly was not helpful. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 18:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Removal seems in order.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 02:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::What's the synthesis? Is that sources don't use the phrase &quot;conflict of interest&quot;? The Democratic minority report called it [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/18/trump-overcharge-secret-service-hotel &quot;the world’s greatest get-rich-quick scheme&quot;] and discusses the emoluments issue. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::We are talking about Bump's column. I do not see a hook for &quot;conflict of interest&quot; in that source – either explicit or implicit. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 15:45, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Here's a [https://time.com/donald-trumps-suite-of-power/ Time magazine] piece that directly uses the term &quot;conflict of interest&quot; to describe the Trump presidency use of Trump Organization properties. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::Where are you going with this? This sub thread is solely about Bump's column, about the content removed in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1256355950 this edit]. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 17:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::I can't speak to what was in the Bump column as it's paywalled, but I added sourced content about Trump properties being a conflict of interest and it was removed without an explanation, or at least I can't find it. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::I did insert a link to an archived version without the paywall, but it was removed. I understand the page is near the [[WP:PEIS]] limit, but the solution is surely using [[WP:Lua|#invoke]] or such rather than creating accessibility issues? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:13, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::[https://web.archive.org/web/20210125173840/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/20/trumps-presidency-ends-where-so-much-it-was-spent-trump-organization-property/ This] is the link to the archived version. Don't most editors know how to access the [https://web.archive.org/ Wayback Machine] and paste the url of a paywalled article into the text field? [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::::Most? I doubt it. I think that's covered in Wikipedia Editing 302. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 15:39, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::::Muboshgu has waaay more edits than me and is an admin to boot, so I just assumed. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::I'll go with &quot;that's when the wayback machine was down&quot;. Or I just forgot to check it. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC) I added material with RS that made the connection between Trump visits and influence-seekers at his {{tq|private residences}}. They're actually commercial properties where he also maintains a private residence. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC) == 2nd assassination attempt == The Pennsylvania attempt is featured in the article and a link to the page about it is included, but the absence of anything about the 2nd attempt in Florida, including a link to the page for it, is strikingly absent. I'm sure authorized editors will quickly correct this honest oversight. [[Special:Contributions/216.168.91.102|216.168.91.102]] ([[User talk:216.168.91.102|talk]]) 22:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :We don't mention the 2016 incident where someone tried to kill Trump, so I don't see why we need to mention the Florida incident. The only one where Trump was harmed was the Pennsylvania one, so that one seems like the most important one to include. The Florida incident can be mentioned at the article for [[Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign|the 2024 campaign]]. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 15:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC) == Assassination attempts in lede? == Why not a brief mention of the two assassination attempts against Trump in the lede? Surely it's up there in notability with him serving two non-consecutive terms. [[User:Evaporation123|Evaporation123]] ([[User talk:Evaporation123|talk]]) 01:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :There have been more then 2 [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 04:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :I was thinking this earlier today. Feels odd that this is not mentioned. ([[User talk:Not0nshoree|Discuss]] [[User:Not0nshoree|'''''0nshore's''''']] [[Special:contributions/Not0nshoree|contributions!!!]]) 15:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Yes, it was a very important event in Trump's political life, so it's correct to include this information in the lead. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 18:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Popular vote win or loss? &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Last section of lead breaks WIKI policies&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == “winning both the [[List of United States presidential elections by popular vote margin|popular]] and electoral vote” this is from the newest section of the lead he did win the electoral vote but the popular vote is still being counted as of 11/8 11:20 EST he has only a 2.6% lead with millions of votes left to count particularly from California this is assumption and there isn’t any vaild source claiming he did this needs to be removed immediately [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 04:21, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :From the cursory research I've just done, including NBC and NYT, it does appear a popvote loss is within the realm of possibility, so there may be a bit of [[WP:CRYSTAL]] there. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:51, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::Shouldn’t it be removed until then? [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 18:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::Someone may have to do that just to get some eyes on the issue. You don't need prior agreement for a [[WP:BOLD|bold]] edit that does not violate an existing consensus. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :Leave it be, until/if Harris passes him. PS - {{ping|John Bois}} It would be best to first bring this up at [[2024 United States presidential election]], where Trump's pop-vote total is currently bolden, in the infobox. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:John Bois|John Bois]] [[WP:THEHILL]] has [https://thehill.com/homenews/nexstar_media_wire/4976301-when-was-the-last-time-the-republican-party-won-the-popular-vote/ reported] a popular vote win for Trump; however, if it’s not already covered in the body it probably should be added. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 19:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::NBC NYT and AP have not declared it yet [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 19:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've opened [[Talk:2024 United States presidential election#Popular vote total|up a discussion]] at the 2024 election page, about your concerns. Honestly though, most of the networks must have confirmed that there's not enough (currently uncounted) votes left for Harris to overtake Trump, going by the percentage track. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Thank you! [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 04:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I suppose it’s up to editor consensus since we have some reliable sources reporting popular vote victory and some are not. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 19:38, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If there are a few reliable sources claiming it, we should have it in until proven otherwise. There is pretty good confidence/credible info that points that direction. I think [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]] is more of unsubstantiated claims. [[User:MaximusEditor|MaximusEditor]] ([[User talk:MaximusEditor|talk]]) 18:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::There's no harm in waiting for it to be official. California only has 63% reporting at the moment, there are more votes to come that at the very least will make it a narrow margin either way. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 01:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC) == Public image summary style == I mentioned in a thread above that some of the content in #Public image has nothing to do with public image and creates verifiability issues. Having now read the main article, [[Public image of Donald Trump]], I can see this stems from a failure to use [[WP:SUMMARYSTYLE]]. To conform, the lvl3 headings in #Public image should be the lvl2 headings in the main article, not just a spot to throw miscellanea. Such a rewrite would remove discussion of Trump's use of social media and racism, which are likely DUE for this article. I want to discuss where they should go. Keeping them in #Public image isn't an option given the violation of [[WP:Verifiability]]. Best, [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC) [[Talk:Donald Trump#Public Image#Incitement of Violence|Here]] the previous thread. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 21:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :I have made some changes to the organization per the above. The article was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256505959 previously structured]: :'''7 Public''' Image 7.1 Scholarly assessment and public approval surveys 7.2 False or misleading statements 7.3 Promotion of conspiracy theories 7.4 Incitement of violence 7.5 Social media 7.6 Relationship with the press 7.7 Racial views 7.8 Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct 7.9 Popular culture :It is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256522879 now structured]: :'''7 Assessments''' 7.1 Public 7.2 Scholarly :'''8 Political practice''' 8.1 False or misleading statements 8.2 Rhetoric 8.3 Promotion of conspiracy theories 8.4 Social media 8.5 Relationship with the press :'''9 Prejudice''' 9.1 Racial views 9.2 Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct :I have also started a discussion at [[Talk:Racial views of Donald Trump#Changing the title]] which will impact the subheading &quot;Racial views&quot; [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC) == Too many words together, in blue == Forgive me folks. But &quot;[[Second inauguration of Donald Trump|His inauguration as the 47th president]]&quot;, looks terrible. It's a long blue sentence, basically. I attempted to fix this with &quot;[[Second inauguration of Donald Trump|His inauguration]] as the 47th president&quot;. But was reverted. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :{{Ping|GoodDay}} in my opinion it's necessary. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 00:30, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256444346 Your edit] created an [[MOS:EGG]] problem. The article has many links of that length or longer, and the length of the linktext is not our first priority. You might as well change [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|hush money payment to Stormy Daniels]] to [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|hush money payment]] to Stormy Daniels because there's &quot;too much blue&quot;, and I think most editors would oppose that as well. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:45, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::I'm not gonna push this too much, as the lead will change 500+ more times, between now &amp; January 20, 2025. On inauguration day, the whole sentence will be extinct by then. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:48, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{Ping|GoodDay}} the [[Donald Trump]] discussion page is already too long, in my opinion this thread is unnecessary (in my opinion). [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 21:41, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Concluded discussions tend to get archived, after twenty-four hours. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{Ping|GoodDay}} damn, excuse me. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 21:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{Ping|GoodDay}} Only after closure, per consensus 13. Are you withdrawing this? If so, I'll close. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC) {{hat|Off-topic, borderline bullying. Be better. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 01:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC)}} :::Awesome. Please don't start discussions about things that you are not going to push very much. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Please don't tell me what to do. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:52, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Please don't tell ''me'' what to do. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC) {{hab}} == Inclusion of release of grades == I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256544506 removed] &quot;In 2015, Trump's lawyer threatened Trump's colleges, his high school, and the [[College Board]] with legal action if they released his academic records&quot; from the early life section saying it was &quot;undue for this section&quot;. A few hours later, {{u|Farkle Griffen}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256597546 added it back in] with the description &quot;Explained why his academic performance is not known&quot;, not addressing the concern about whether it was [[WP:DUE|giving it too much emphasis]]. Before I removed the text, I did a search of coverage, and found that the issue was very rarely mentioned after it was discovered, and only in passing. Giving it a relatively high amount of attention in the early life section therefore seems inappropriate. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :I disagree [[User:Anonymous8206|Anonymous8206]] ([[User talk:Anonymous8206|talk]]) 00:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Didn't see that it was previously removed, but mentioning academic performance in school is relatively common in Wikipedia articles on biographies of political figures, and it's certainly relevant in a section about academic history; mentioning why this information is not available seems just as relevant. I don't see how a single sentence is too much emphasis. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 00:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|Farkle Griffen}} Could you respond to the issue of coverage not being lasting (applying [[WP:NOTNEWS]] and [[WP:RECENTISM]])? I do believe the Early life section should be expanded; if that happened I would be more likely to support inclusion. Right now however, &quot;one sentence&quot; makes up 20% of Wikipedia's coverage of Trump's early life. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:13, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::To be clear, I'm not that much in favor of keeping it, it just feels like a strange argument to say: &quot;This section is too short... so we should make it shorter.&quot; But to respond to your first sentence, this news went viral around February 2019, which was five (nearly six) years ago; I could be wrong, but I don't think [[WP:NOTNEWS]] and [[WP:RECENTISM]] apply here. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Re Farkle Griffen; it is a strange argument, but the idea is that the article is already very unbalanced against the Early life section, and this would make a negligible change to that imbalance, while the Early life section is very unbalanced towards this event, and removing it would make a significant change to that imbalance. See my reply below for RECENTISM in particular. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{tq|coverage not being lasting}} You seem to be saying we shouldn't keep the content because RS is not still talking about it. That doesn't seem workable, since RS has other things to talk about. RECENTISM? What's recent about something that happened nine years ago? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:00, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The second sentence of RECENTISM says &quot;It is writing without an aim toward a long-term, historical view,&quot; which is how I'm assessing DUE. The best sources for assessing whether biographical details are DUE in this sense are, obviously, biographies, as they are assessing how details fit into a life as a whole. On the other end of the spectrum, the absolute worst sources for this assessment are breaking news sources about a revelation about a biographical detail. As an example, Trump's eligibility for the draft received a lot more coverage than this over a longer time period. But biographies published after the fact treat it as a small issue in his early life overall. These sources are therefore insufficient to show it is DUE. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I'm struggling to imagine writing this article primarily based on published biographies, in which content can't be written or verified without a trip to the library or a book store. Are we to limit editing to editors who are prepared to do that (which would exclude me), or should the rest of us just take the word of those who are?{{pb}}As a practical matter, you're not going to get consensus for reasoning that departs from how editors have operated here for eight years&amp;mdash;unless you have uninvolved closure in which the closer is convinced by your arguments. You may be in the unfortunate position of being far superior to your colleagues. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I won't press this any further, there doesn't seem to be momentum. For my own benefit in determining if material is DUE on this page in the future, would &quot;Coverage across multiple RS is sufficient to suggest inclusion is DUE&quot; be an accurate summary of this discussion? ::::::I will note that high-quality sources that are doing overall evaluations are most beneficial for DUE in creating the bones of the article. Editors still have to put meat on them. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::In my opinion, the article has been dysfunctional in the DUE area for eight years. Some content has been added on the basis of one or two sources and accompanying &quot;editorial judgment&quot; that it's DUE. Other content has been omitted on the basis of 15 sources and accompanying &quot;editorial judgment&quot; that it's UNDUE. It seemed to me that DUE has been more about &quot;editorial judgment&quot; than anything else, which left the article wide open to editor biases. Thankfully, one of the main culprits was recently indefinitely banned from all things Donald Trump (not for that reason but for bad behavior), but they were only one. I can't fix the world. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Based on your experience here, what do you think should be done to help with NPOV? In a similar vein, you mention below that you are looking for arguments beyond editorial judgement, and you later indicated this was met. What was it that convinced you that DUE was met? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{tq|Based on your experience here, what do you think should be done to help with NPOV?}} In a better encyclopedia, ArbCom or WMF would intervene here. That's fantasy at this point, so I don't know what could be done. It's part of why I'm semi-retired. I'm just here for the mental stimulation, for interaction with other smart people (I don't do social media), because I have a talent for efficiency and organization that makes me a good facilitator on this page, and because I have nothing better to do with my time. {{tq|What was it that convinced you that DUE was met?}} Six linked sources and the promise of {{tq|about a dozen others}}, which I took at face value. We can talk about &quot;larger issues&quot; all day long, but we also have to get some work done. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:26, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Thanks for these comments. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:27, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :There's too much &quot;editorial judgment&quot; going on here. Somebody please present a persuasive DUE case for inclusion, based on RS coverage. Absent that, I support the removal. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:58, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::Not sure what DUE has to do with this since this doesn't seem to be a NPOV issue, however, for RS coverage, just going going off the first results on Google, this is mentioned by: [https://time.com/5540152/donald-trump-michael-cohen-academic-records/Lq6 Time Magazine] , [https://apnews.com/article/04f0236264e8427d9995e4de68e62729 AP News], [https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/27/politics/michael-cohen-trump-threaten-school-records/index.html CNN], [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/fordham-university-confirms-cohen-warned-it-not-to-disclose-trumps-grades PBS News], [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/politics/trump-school-grades.html NY Times], and [https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/02/27/cohen-says-he-threatened-schools-over-possible-release-president-trumps-sat-scores-or-grades/ WP], among about a dozen others. Granted, these are news stories, not biographies. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::Unless I'm mistaken, DUE has everything to do with all content. {{tq|Granted, these are news stories, not biographies.}} I'd say 90%+ of the article is based on news stories; that's the nature of the beast. (As I interpret it, NOTNEWS mostly means we don't (or shouldn't) rush to publish breaking news.) Now, since I don't move goalposts, you have persuaded me unless someone can persuasively counter your case by showing how those sources don't support the content. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::AFAIK, &quot;DUE&quot; only refers to [[WP:DUE]], which is a subsection of [[WP:Neutral Point of View]], and only really talks about the due ''weight'' of a ''viewpoint''. Am I wrong? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:19, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::You're right, although DUE tends to be used as a shorthand for all weighting issues. [[WP:PROPORTION]] is more accurate. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Hey, I'm no policy guru; much of it moggles my bind. All I know is that, in practice at this article and others where I've spent significant time, &quot;viewpoint&quot; is a very broad term loosely applied. Why don't you take this specific case to [[WP:NPOVN]] and (with any luck) educate all of us? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:30, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :We need room for obvious reasons. Stuff like this should probably be on the chopping block. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|R. G. Checkers}} Why do you think this is undue? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::We are never going to make significant progress on article size one sentence at a time; might as well try to significantly shrink Lake Erie using buckets while others are pouring water into it with other buckets &lt;/hyperbolic metaphor&gt;. Progress on article size will require gutting large parts of the article, such as much of the detail in &quot;Foreign policy&quot;, moving to summary style. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC) Related discussion at &quot;Wording of sentence on Trump attending New York Military Academy&quot; with more sources, above. Trump has claimed since the 1970s that he [https://web.archive.org/web/20151001054028/https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/business/dealbook/decades-old-questions-over-trumps-wealth-and-education.html graduated at the top of his class] at Wharton and that you had to be a [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-who-often-boasts-of-his-wharton-degree-says-he-was-admitted-to-the-hardest-school-to-get-into-the-college-official-who-reviewed-his-application-recalls-it-differently/2019/07/08/0a4eb414-977a-11e9-830a-21b9b36b64ad_story.html super genius] to be admitted to Wharton in 1966. Both claims were debunked, despite Trump not releasing his records. And in 2019 Michael Cohen turned over the threatening letters Trump had him send to Wharton and his high school. It wasn't just the news of the day, it's been mentioned in probably every Trump biography published since then. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC) As for {{tq|need[ing] room for obvious reasons}}, that's [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]. My crystal ball thinks we'll end up with comparisons between his first and second presidency, resulting in fewer details for the first one. We'll have to wait and see what RS report about the second one. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Thanks {{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}. I've got my copy of [[Trump Revealed]] to see the weighting they place. Their discussion of Trump's grades are quite limited, and only really discussed in the context of Wharton, which makes sense given that was a focus to establish credibility as a businessman. In their discussion of Trump at Wharton, they give an equal amount of value Trump ascribed to the degree, to his draft exemption, his later alumni contributions and how relatively wealth he was compared to the cohort. His education at Wharton covers four pages of the 20 dedicated to his early life. :A lot more of the text is spent discussing his aggression as a child and teen; this should be included before his grades are. If his Early life were expanded to the size of [[Barack Obama#Early life and career|Barack Obama's]], it should certainly be included. I'll check other biographies later to see how their emphases compare. The needing room comment may refer to the article's size already being very long. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::The book was published in 2016, three years before Cohen [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/politics/trump-school-grades.html told the NYT] about Trump's efforts to keep his grades secret after harping about Obama's academic record for years. As if anyone but Trump would care about high school grades 50 years later. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::I didn't mean to imply it was published after this came out. In your estimation, how much more of the early life section would have been taken up by it if it had? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 14:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::No idea. Pre-presidency content that went to character kept getting trimmed because of the avalanche of presidency events. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC) == Statistic and Grover Cleveland in the lead == {{tq|Becoming only the second President in history to serve non-consecutive terms, the first being Grover Cleveland.}} Is the statistic leadworthy? Is Grover Cleveland leadworthy? (Also, [[MOS:EDITORIAL]], [[MOS:OFFICE]], and missing subject and verb.) [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :I personally think that something that has only happened twice in over 200 years of U.S. presidency is lead worthy, but others may disagree, that's just my two cents [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 22:19, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::This indicates support for the first sentence. Do you support the second? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 22:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::I'm not really sure what the second is proposing, I had a look at those policies but have obviously missed / overlooked something when trying to understand [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 23:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|Artem P75}} apologies if I was unclear. The second sentence is {{tq|Is Grover Cleveland leadworthy?}} [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I guess maybe not? as he isn't the subject matter? Maybe we could mention Trump being only the second without mentioning Grover... but I also do agree with @[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] that the lead is too long and could use some culling [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 00:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Not to nitpick, but he hasn't served his second term, yet. The sentence would be more accurate, after he assumes office in January 2025. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 22:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::Ah yeah, I agree with that, I think the policy is WP:CRYSTALBALL? Or something that I have seen used for this? Maybe could say ''elected'' to serve a second term instead? Otherwise may as well just wait until the 20th of Jan to make the decision [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 23:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Our lead is too long as it is. Throwing in this tidbit about Grover Cleveland doesn't help matters. It's [[WP:TRIVIA]]. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 00:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1256876621&amp;oldid=1256875459 Removed Grover Cleveland reference] [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Not trivia by any means; pulling a Grover Cleveland by winning the 2024 Presidential race after losing a bid for re-election in 2020 is something Donald here has lately been getting lots of attention for, with the press making comparisons between both men following this highly unusual achievement. The 132 years elapsing before that happening on the other hand is an expendable count. We definitely should have some mention of doing something only Grover did before. Let's not downplay the significance of it. The first paragraph doesn't necessarily have to be the place to discuss that, and I'm fine with the last one doing so. In the linked diff showing removal, Rollinginhisgrave also carelessly ignored how the ambiguity of just saying Donald is the second to win non-consecutive election will leave readers asking &quot;Who was the first to do so?&quot; and we shouldn't assume everyone will already know the answer. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 02:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Highly unusual because parties usually have the good sense not to nominate the loser a second time, but good sense goes out the window after a political party has transformed itself into a cult. Cleveland's misogyny ({{tq|sensible and responsible women do not want to vote. The relative positions to be assumed by men and women in the working out of our civilization were assigned long ago by a higher intelligence}}) and anti-labor stance would have fit right in but how many readers come to this page to read about him. Also, &quot;second&quot;? Trump has a few — uh — achievements all to himself: first felon, first man found liable by a court for sexual assault, first nominee/president-elect to be promoting merch from shoes to Bibles Made in China branded with his name. If we want to cite stats in the lead, these are the ones we should select. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|SNUGGUMS}} Much of the lede invites questions: why did his businesses fail? How did Russia interfere? What did he do that was racist, sexist etc? So on. To answer those questions a reader may read on to see what the lede is summarizing. It's the nature of summary style. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} You're presuming all viewers would have enough time to read the page beyond its lead section and that's not a guarantee. To elaborate on rarity, what I'm getting at is that non-consecutive wins are an almost unprecedented occurrence that many folks once believed would never be repeated. The closest anybody came before last week was Theodore Roosevelt during the 1912 election. This is far less common than things like businesses failing or someone being racist/sexist. While I can't yet say for sure that it'll be the most prominent trait of his Presidential statistics like it appears to be for Grover, people either way would expect a straightforward mention of names when discussing only one of two in history who broke longstanding patterns. It wouldn't exactly be a big bloat to simply identify him. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 22:47, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :I would agree that something that has happened only twice in over 200 years is lead worthy... I think the lead in general needs a very thorough cleanup, for example the entire third paragraph, starting with: :&quot;In his first term, Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, funded expansion of the Mexico–United States border wall...&quot; :Should probably just be moved to the &quot;First Presidency&quot; section... These are things he did while he was in office for his first term so I would think that is the section where they belong rather than contributing to the bloat in the lead... but I will not expand the subject matter here and will raise another talk page post on this &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 22:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Leads convey the most important parts of the person's bio. There are a number of sources about Grover Cleveland's presidency now that we have a second non-consecutive term president, but this press will die out before Thanksgiving and it will be mostly forgotten. Cleveland is meaningless to Trump's biography aside from that one trivial commonality. I do agree about the need for a thorough rewrite though. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 23:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::We need to reflect the emphasis that RS put on this. Our discussion of the comparison to Cleveland is sourced to [https://www.npr.org/2024/11/04/g-s1-32048/grover-cleveland-trump-non-consecutive-terms this NPR article]. Those who support including the comparison in the lede: do you think this sourcing verifies that inclusion in the lede would be [[WP:PROPORTIONATE]], and that it's inclusion (from [[WP:MOS/LEAD]]) {{tq|reflect[s] its importance to the topic?}} [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I do not think there is a weight issue here per [[WP:PROPORTIONATE]], it currently only makes up a single sentence of the lead, its not as though it goes in to depth or discussion, it just mentions it as a single line tagged on to the mentioning of his second victory, which was a non-consecutive victory, so I believe is worth mentioning as it is only the second in history. Although this is also mentioned at the end of the first paragraph: {{tq|&quot;In November 2024, he was re-elected to a second, non-consecutive term as president&quot;}} so we could add mention of the fact that this is only the second time this has happened in that section and remove mention of it in the last paragraph? &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 23:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Just to be clear, that NPR link isn't the only piece to make comparisons between these guys, and Artem has a good point on weight/proportionate concerns. I see no violation per the importance of these unconventional winning stats. Muboshgu also got overly hasty with remarks on people forgetting it before Thanksgiving. That's purely speculation and we have no way of telling for certain how many will remember the similarities. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 23:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Thanks SNUGGUMS and Artem for these replies. I agree that Muboshgu's comment likely fell too far into [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]], but we do need to account for [[WP:RECENTISM]]. Including one sentence on something of course can give too much weight, even if it's not in depth. I'm sure you can think of many examples. Proportion therefore applies, as does MOS:LEAD. :::::{{tq|so I believe is worth mentioning as it is only the second in history}} I understand you believe that, but we are to reflect the importance placed by RS. Do you think that is demonstrated by the source provided? :::::{{tq|that NPR link isn't the only piece to make comparisons}} If you think other sources are able/better able to verify the importance, please provide them. :::::I want to reassure you both that I'm not opposed to including the comparison, I just want to ensure it's inclusion doesn't violate [[WP:NPOV]] by verifying that importance placed reflects that of RS. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I guess if giving appropriate weight to the RS is the concern it would be beneficial to locate other sources that report on this so as to not give an undue balance. I'm sure this will not be difficult as it does seem like something noteworthy, but then again it may not be as noteworthy as I perceive and there very may well not be much RS on it. I will see if I can locate some good reliable sources in my free time this afternoon and propose them here &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} For what it's worth, there's pieces from [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2024/11/06/grover-cleveland-other-president-win-back-trump-election/ The Daily Telegraph], [https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4979460-trump-election-grover-cleveland-white-house/amp/ The Hill], [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/us/politics/trump-grover-cleveland-second-term.html The New York Times], [https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/11/06/donald-trump-grover-cleveland-non-consecutive-president-terms/76088079007/ USA Today] [https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article295130869.html Miami Herald], [https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/national-international/donald-trump-grover-cleveland-nonsecutive-presidential-terms/3666352/ WBC-TV (aka NBC Washington)], etc. that discuss differences and similarities between the men. If you want other samples, then I could provide those as well. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 06:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :That's okay for now. This goes some way to establishing [[WP:WEIGHT]], although insufficiently (it's unclear how this goes beyond simple verifiability, and [[WP:VNOT|verifiability does not guarantee inclusion]]). To avoid [[Wikipedia:Bring me a rock]], if you'll permit me a few hours I'll have a look through sourcing. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{u|SNUGGUMS}}, {{u|Artem P75}} I had a go at evaluating the weighting RS put on claims to importance. I used a sample of sources; a different sample may generate different results. I searched &quot;donald trump win&quot; (not in quotes) on Google. I opened every result for a few pages and closed pages that were attributed as an individual's opinion or analysis. I closed some that didn't discuss what the election meant. I closed some that were about a subtopic, such as the election win in Arizona, and talked about the importance to Arizona etc. Excluded articles were: [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/09/politics/donald-trump-election-what-matters/index.html][https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/president-results][https://www.npr.org/2024/11/10/g-s1-33609/donald-trump-wins-arizona][https://www.heritage.org/conservatism/commentary/trumps-win-ordinary-americans-declared-independence-the-elites][https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ap-race-call-donald-trump-wins-arizona][https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/trump-wins-arizona-election-harris-swing-state-rcna173809][https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/11/05/us/elections/results-president.html][https://naacp.org/articles/naacp-reacts-news-president-elect-donald-trumps-win-2024-presidential-election][https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/10/20/trump-overturn-2024-election-plan-00184103][https://www.cbsnews.com/video/the-factors-that-led-to-donald-trumps-victory/][https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-harris-polls][https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/][https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-lede/donald-trump-wins-a-second-term]. I then crudely [[coding (social sciences)|coded]] the results and even more crudely numerically described the emphasis the source was placing (1 being in the title, 0 being not mentioned). {{Collapse top}} {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; |+ Crude [[Coding (social sciences)|Coding]] of news articles |- | Title |Outlet|| + Latino shift || + votes on border || + Urban votes || No change in suburban vote || Rural vote || Swing state sweep || Political comeback || Won frustrated voters || Validated coarse rhetoric || Outperformed 2020 || + US stock market || + BTC || Non-consecutive || Grover Cleveland || First convicted felon || Oldest elected || Prices || Crime || Migrants || Kamala unpopular Biden || Consumer sentiment || Inflation || Young voters || Suburban movement || Not a huge win || Shocked Democrats || Women voters || Black voters || College degree voters || Kamala time-short || Trump's Continuing dominance of politics || Blue wall defeated || COVID considered history || Tim Walz bad || White voters || Economy || Decisive || Popular vote, first Republican in 20 years || Religious || Trans || Deportation || Anti-elite || Not shocking || 2nd time beating woman || Not seen as fascist || Female president || Protests || Men || White without college degree || Direction of country |- |[https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/10/politics/trump-voter-shifts-nationwide/index.html Trump’s 2024 victory revealed voter shifts that could reshape America’s political landscape] |CNN|| 0.75 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/election-2024-trump-celebrates-win/ Election 2024: Trump sweeps all 7 battleground states, CBS News projects] |CBS|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://apnews.com/article/election-day-trump-harris-white-house-83c8e246ab97f5b97be45cdc156af4e2 Trump wins the White House in a political comeback rooted in appeals to frustrated voters] |AP|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0.9 || 0.5 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- |[https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2024-11-12/donald-trumps-presidential-election-victory-in-6-charts Donald Trump’s Election Victory, in 6 Charts] |U.S. News|| 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.lemonde.fr/en/united-states/article/2024/11/10/2024-us-election-donald-trump-wins-arizona_6732283_133.html 2024 US Election: Donald Trump wins Arizona in swing state sweep] |Le Monde|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://time.com/7172052/how-donald-trump-won-2024/ How Trump Won] |Time|| 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/7/us-election-results-how-did-donald-trump-break-the-blue-wall US election results: How did Donald Trump break the ‘blue wall’ – again?] |Al Jazeera|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-win-presidency-2024/ Donald Trump wins election in historic comeback after 2020 loss, indictments and bruising campaign] |CBS|| 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/czxrnw5qrprt Donald Trump wins 2024 US election in historic comeback] |BBC|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://apnews.com/article/trump-harris-presidential-election-takeaways-d0e4677f4cd53b4d2d8d18d674be5bf4 Election takeaways: Trump’s decisive victory in a deeply divided nation] |AP|| 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.3 || 0.25 || 0 || 0.3 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.1 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0.5 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/us/politics/trump-wins-presidency.html Donald Trump Returns to Power, Ushering in New Era of Uncertainty] |NY Times|| 0.3 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.7 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.3 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0.4 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gpd2487e5o The view from countries where Trump's win really matters] |BBC|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-wins-2nd-term-historic-return-white/story?id=115358710 Donald Trump wins 2nd term in historic return to White House] |ABC|| || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.6 || 0 || 0 || 0.6 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://time.com/7175083/donald-trump-presidency-inflation/ What Donald Trump’s Win Means for Inflation] |Time|| || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- |[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/10/trump-wins-arizona-completing-sweep-of-all-seven-battleground-states-ap-reports Trump wins Arizona to clinch sweep of seven battleground states] |The Guardian|| || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- |[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/06/donald-trump-wins-presidential-election/ Donald Trump wins presidential election, defeating Harris to retake White House] |Washington Post|| 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.35 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0.6 || 0 || 0 || 0.7 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.75 || 0.75 |- | Sum | || 3.55 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 3 || 5.25 || 3.1 || 0.5 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 1.15 || 1.1 || 0.75 || 1.65 || 0.9 || 0.25 || 1.65 || 1.6 || 0.5 || 2.65 || 1.6 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 1.55 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 0.65 || 0.5 || 1.75 || 0.5 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 0.8 || 0 || 0.25 || 0.65 || 0.25 || 1 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.75 || 0.75 |} {{collapse bottom}} Takeaways: * From this sample, for RS, the most significant thing about this election was it being a political comeback. * The increase in Trump's vote among Latinos was also seen as significant, for example: **[https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/10/politics/trump-voter-shifts-nationwide/index.html &quot;A trend with the potential to remake the American political landscape is the huge shift in Latino voters toward Trump.&quot;] **[https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2024-11-12/donald-trumps-presidential-election-victory-in-6-charts &quot;As has been extensively noted, exit polls show that Latino men went from backing Biden by 23 points to backing Trump by 12 points, a stunning result.&quot;]) * It was seen as less historic that Trump was the second president to have non-consecutive terms than that he was the oldest. * When sources did mention the historicity of Trump's non-consecutive terms, they gave equal emphasis of the achievement with a discussion of Grover Cleveland. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::With all of those results in mind, I don't see any problems with due weight for the part regarding non-consecutive wins. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 13:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::I actually think the opposite having now done the review. Could you clarify why including the fact in the lead at all would be giving due weight, when it was not given such weight by RS? Surely the appropriate outcome here given would be to replace it with the characterization as a political comeback? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::&quot;...{{tq|replace it with the characterization as a political comeback}}&quot; I would support this. ''To me'' it is significant that he was the second in history to win non-consecutive terms and I find it quite interesting, but from the above it seems like there has been next to no coverage on it, and Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the weight given by [[WP:RS]], so unfortunately I don't see a reason to include this fact in the lead &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 21:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} By your own admission, Rollinginhisgrave, it was '''equal emphasis of the achievement with a discussion of Grover Cleveland'''. That suggests any mention of the non-consecutive wins would be an appropriate place to name the other guy. It's unreasonable to now assert otherwise and the way you did so sounds like a cheap cop-out. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 22:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Please assume good faith of me, I have no preferences beyond reflecting the weight of RS, and I 100% agree that the results above {{tq|suggests any mention of the non-consecutive wins would be an appropriate place to name the other guy}}; if included in the body, it should be represented as such. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 22:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::In that case, keep a watch for any other pieces that come up covering both men, and those can be assessed for further calculations on weight. It wouldn't surprise me to see more pop up, but only time will tell how many others will talk about their similarities and differences. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 01:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|SNUGGUMS}} It wouldn't surprise me either. When/if we get there, we can make those alterations. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == Russia was a hoax == Mueller’s results found nothing so that part is 100% INACCURATE. [[Special:Contributions/71.205.198.48|71.205.198.48]] ([[User talk:71.205.198.48|talk]]) 02:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Could you be more specific in what you're referring to / proposing? :...To me, this makes no sense &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 02:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::In our biographical article on Trump, we spend a lot of space on possible collusion by Trump's 2016 campaign with Russia interference, although ''[https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf Mueller Report]'', vol. I, p. 173: &quot;Ultimately, the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities.&quot; [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 07:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Regarding a lot of space, see the section [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256976843#Investigations Investigations]. Also, I looked in the subsection [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256976843#Mueller_investigation Mueller Investigation] and I couldn't find any mention of the ultimate result mentioned in my above message. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 15:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Do we say there was collusion? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::No, but the report not finding any evidence of collusion resulted in it being a political debacle for the Democrats, basically vindicated Trump's charges of a &quot;Russiagate witchhunt&quot;, and embarrassed the news media (notably the ''NYT'', who pumped the story day after day for years in a manner which is honestly comparable to the false stories about alleged WMDs before the Iraq War). What this article says is correct, but these circumstances should make us rethink its mention within the lead. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Another sensible point. The landscape has shifted beneath our feet here, and we haven't been responsive to the latest RS. A lot of the Russia stuff is legacy text from a time when RS were much more comfortable speculating about a link between Trump and the Kremlin. That's now largely stopped as more information has come out. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 10:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I also agree on this. The lead is too long, and ultimately the Russia-Muller angle petered out. Even if something was regularly on the news at the time, it probably shouldn't be in the lead if it had little lasting significance. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 11:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == Parents, children, and spouses links in the infobox &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Parents and children links in the infobox&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == Re: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256913704] This keeps getting added and removed with no resolution in sight. As I understand it, the rationale for omission has been that the parents are covered by the &quot;Trump family&quot; link. On the other hand, so are the children and they remain linked in the infobox. I'm thinking it's parents and children, or neither. In any case, let's settle this once and, hopefully, for all. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Looking at other U.S. politician's pages, specifically [[Barack Obama]] and [[George W. Bush]], they both have their parents listed, and then a separate section for &quot;relatives&quot; with [[Obama Family]] and [[Bush Family]] respectively being linked. The same applies to [[John F. Kennedy]] and [[Kamala Harris]] to name some other examples, so I would think we should follow suit on the Trump article &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 05:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :I was about to make almost the same post, except that &quot;Spouses&quot; is also thoroughly covered by the link, so I would say it's either include parents or remove children and spouses. :The current infobox is somewhat long already, but information like Children/Spouses/Parents is extremely common in biographies on Wikipedia, and usually considered &quot;pertinent information&quot;, so I can see reasoning in either direction. :I don't really care which direction is chosen, but for consistency with other articles, I'd lean more toward adding the parents. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 05:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :[[MOS:INFOBOX]] identifies the purpose of inboxes as allowing the reader to &quot;identify key facts at a glance&quot;. Given this, the link to [[Family of Donald Trump]] should be removed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Not necessarily disagreeing, but it appears to be an argument against the {{para|relatives}} parameter of {{tlx|Infobox officeholder}}. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Perhaps, I'm not sure how it is applied/intended. If it is intended to list notable individual relatives, then it's not an argument against. Probably best to assume that's the intent as it is the assumption that aligns with the guidelines. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Ok, so all of the cited precedents are just wrong, and I could live with that. &quot;The existence of bad stuff does not justify or excuse the addition or retention of other bad stuff of the same kind. Not all consistency is good consistency.&quot; On my user page since January 2018. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If we were to agree to remove these fields and lump it all into [[Trump Family]] would we then have to go to the other politician pages to also change this? I'm not opposed to this, it just seems like a lot of work for a change that seems like a matter of semantics &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 06:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::&lt;s&gt;Remove the fields of both parents/children? I don't think anyone's making the case for that. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; Apologies Mandruss, I don't seem to be carefully reading at the moment, I will take a break. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::We could, but we wouldn't have to. That kind of thing always turns little issues into gigantic issues, and other articles are not affected by decisions made at this one. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Wouldn't this same reasoning apply to the '''Awards''' section? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Avoid topic expansion. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I don't understand Mandruss' comment above, but yes I would say so. Could be worth asking for clarity on [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I'm thinking ahead to a consensus item about {{tq|Parents, children, and spouses links in the infobox}}, which would link to this discussion, which would contain stuff about other issues. Not good organization. Address separate topics separately. Start linking issues like that, and things quickly grow too large to deal with effectively. Usually not helpful to try to solve all the related problems at once. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The point being, ''if'' the same logic applies, then I don't think the reasoning is valid. There is no ''way'' the intended use of the '''Awards''' section is to list the &quot;most important&quot; awards, because choosing which are the &quot;most important&quot; would be very controversial on every article where the subject has more than a few awards (''let alone'' this article). ::::Of course, this is all speculation, and I could be wrong. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If you're not proposing we do something to the {{para|awards}} parameter in this discussion, disregard my comments &lt;del&gt;with my apologies&lt;/del&gt;. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC) Edited after reply 06:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Don't apologize; it was a very reasonable assumption [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:46, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Ok, I apologize for apologizing. Stricken. :) &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC) I've posted a question [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Can MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE be updated to reflect discussion here?|here]] at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes]]. Hopefully they can clarify the intent, as there seems to be some disagreement on the talk page. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC) == Financial == Here's some material that is in our article at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1257039271#Financial] :Financial :In April 2019, the House Oversight Committee issued subpoenas seeking financial details from Trump's banks, Deutsche Bank and Capital One, and his accounting firm, Mazars USA. Trump sued the banks, Mazars, and committee chair Elijah Cummings to prevent the disclosures.[506] In May, DC District Court judge Amit Mehta ruled that Mazars must comply with the subpoena,[507] and judge Edgardo Ramos of the Southern District Court of New York ruled that the banks must also comply.[508][509] Trump's attorneys appealed.[510] In September 2022, the committee and Trump agreed to a settlement about Mazars, and the accounting firm began turning over documents.[511] It doesn't appear to be worthwhile for our article, is just taking up space and maybe we should delete it. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 22:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|Bob K31416}} What weighting do RS give it? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::In the material there were 6 refs. The first was April 22, 2019, then 4 refs May 21–22 and finally one September 17. It was an episode of congress subpoenas for some of Trump's financial records. As we look at the episode today, there doesn't seem to be much of interest there. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Bob K31416}} Hope you don't mind, I may take a day or a few getting to this, but I'm not ignoring it and think it is worth evaluating in some depth. In the meantime, have a look in secondary sources 2022 and later and see if they discuss/give weight. Some examples of sources: [https://www.routledge.com/Criminology-on-Trump/Barak/p/book/9781032117904?srsltid=AfmBOooaph_5GHM50QvP2WpJjyNQM3yn31B03xd_Q7cVXpABv6tmPjtL Criminology on Trump] and [https://www.routledge.com/Indicting-the-45th-President-Boss-Trump-the-GOP-and-What-We-Can-Do-About-the-Threat-to-American-Democracy/Barak/p/book/9781032454771?srsltid=AfmBOoqRkFoBRGmy90Uc67LbTWnFauEFxNYhPKWE5JboHRkmj3WidBwg Indicting the 45th president Boss Trump, the GOP, and what we can do about the threat to American democracy]. Look for academic reviews of texts like these to contextualize them in academic literature; I find writing a Wikipedia article based on the reviews helpful to share such research with other editors and ensure NPOV. If I haven't responded in a few days, ping me. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 14:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == Lead cleanup move third para in lead to &quot;First Presidency&quot; section == I think the lead in general needs a very thorough cleanup, for example the entire third paragraph, starting with: &quot;In his first term, Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, funded expansion of the Mexico–United States border wall...&quot; Should probably just be moved to the &quot;First Presidency&quot; section... These are things he did while he was in office for his first term so I would think that is the section where they belong rather than contributing to the bloat in the lead. We have mention of racism and sexism in the second paragraph preceding this one, so I don't think it is appropriate to go into discussion of his policies that reflect this in the lead, but are better left to be considered in the article body per my brief understanding of [[MOS:LEAD]], [[MOS:INTRO]] and [[WP:LEADLENGTH]] &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 23:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :The lead absolutely requires a description of the policies he implemented as president. It doesn't &quot;contribute to bloat&quot; because it is one of the core features of his biography, this article, and the lead of any article on a U.S. president (or leader of any country). The details can be debated, but pretty much everything mentioned is important. If anything is bloat in the current lead, it is instead sentences such as &quot;He and his businesses have been involved in more than 4,000 legal actions, including six business bankruptcies&quot; (see [[#Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead|my proposal to remove this]] above), or perhaps the exact details on his indictments (which as commentators have noted [https://www.vox.com/donald-trump/383152/donald-trump-criminal-indictments-supreme-court-reelected] are now basically dead) and civil liabilities. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::That is a fair point - do you think it requires such an in-depth of a discussion about those policies though? The business and legal actions / bankruptcies I agree should be looked at, I think maybe cut down or removed and left for the body? These things happen all the time with businesses. I also think the exact details of his indictments could be removed and left for the body - I think mention of them should stay in the lead as a summary of the body, but as a whole I do not believe the specific details are lead appropriate and should be left for later on in the article &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 00:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::If we want to trim down that section of the lead, it should probably done to the list of things he did in response to COVID, or the part about Kim Jong Un and North Korea, since nothing substantial came of that. The parts besides those are too important to cut, in my opinion. I will note that there are other things that had real effects which are currently absent and could be added, such as the [[USMCA]] or [[Abraham Accords]]. There's also nothing about the [[Operation Warp Speed]] or the [[CARES Act]], which some editors have mentioned in [[#Can we add some positive things about his presidency to this article?|this discussion]] above. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 00:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::A &quot;discussion&quot; involving two editors that lasted 91 minutes and you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1257055949&amp;oldid=1257054027 claim that a consensus has appeared to emerge]? [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::No, I was not referring to this thread, but [[#Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead|this one]] above. I believe that a fairly clear consensus has emerged there. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::My apology, hadn't seen that one. Will respond there. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{tq|These things happen all the time with businesses}}: does the majority of reliable sources say so? Not to my knowledge, and we have many sources to the contrary. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == Biggest Political Comeback In US History == He staged the single biggest comeback in US Political History as quoted by Newsweek, CNN and others (they agreed greater than Nixon's in 1968) achieving the 2nd highest popular vote totals ever including a record amount of support from minority voters (Black, Hispanic, Jewish, Asian) than any other Republican in history. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 08:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :So what do you want us to say? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::State the facts, they are written directly below the Topic Header. You can expand upon it if you wish by including the final official numbers for minority and popular vote totals but those will be another week or so away. Regardless of the timeline, he's already achieved both facts stated above about the popular vote and the minority vote. He's also achieved 2 out of the top 3 largest popular vote totals ever recorded in American history. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 11:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::Do you have any RS that say this was the &quot;Biggest Political Comeback In US History&quot;? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::of course, I'm not sure how to link articles on here but if you Google &quot;Newsweek How Donald Trump Pulled Off the Greatest Comeback in Political History&quot; it will show the article written by Carlo Versano from 1 week ago. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 11:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::This would fail [[wp:v]] for your suggestion (clickbait titles are not RS). There is also here an issue of [[wp:undue]]. We can (at best say) &quot;according the Newsweek he pulled off the biggest political comeback in modern US history&quot;. I am unsure, that this improves our article. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Sure, another article you can Google (sorry about no links) is &quot;Daily Express 8 greatest political comebacks in history: from Trump and Farage to Churchill and Lenin.&quot; Again, the topic header stated US Political Comebacks. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Sure, what? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::CNN &quot;How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback&quot; article from November 6th also. There are many more articles from mainstream sources stating this again and again. That would be 3 direct, seperate resources reiterating the Topic Header. You could say, &quot;according to many sources, Donald Trump pulled off the biggest comeback in US political history.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Popular vote total is trivial since as the population grows, the number is higher and higher. A more accurate measure would be % of the popular vote which Trump did not earn a significant majority of when compared to prior presidents like Reagan or F.D.R. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 11:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::I wouldn't consider it trivial, there's never an infinite expansion of populations. Look at China, South Korea, Japan, etc. Many countries are shrinking in demographics. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 11:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::The 2024 population is estimated to be 24 million higher than the 2020 population which is higher than the 2016 population.... Pretty much every election cycle prior has had more eligible voters. Having a larger percentage of the country support someone is more important than simply having the most. If F.D.R. won today by the same margin he did in 1936, it would be almost 90 million people. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 11:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::By that logic it sounds like there should've been another 10+ million more total votes this election cycle than in 2020 but the fact is there wasn't. The truth is, Trump has won 2 of the top 3 total popular vote counts in history, and also defeated 2 Democratic candidates in a single election cycle. That's very relevant, and factual. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Not if there's lower turnout which is what happened this time around. He never ran against Biden in the general election so it isnt factual to say he defeated Biden. He only ran against and defeated Kamala Harris. Biden probably would've lost anyways but that's simply speculation, not fact. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::if he was running against him up until 2 months from the election and then dropped out because of a soft coup caused by his disastrous debate performance (and terrible polling numbers), that would be defeating a candidate, 2 to be exact. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::We aren't going to state this because this is not what reliable sources say. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Propaganda isn't 'reliable sources.' Biden continued his campaign after one of the worst debate performances in modern history and afterwards still continued to state he was continuing his campaign, until many Democratic donors, former and current House of Representatives and Senators demanded he quit. That would be a soft coup, especially withholding campaign finances to force him out. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 13:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::[https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/06/politics/how-donald-trump-won/index.html How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback], CNN. Here's an excerpt, &quot;Millions of Americans, including pivotal voters in Midwest and Sun Belt battlegrounds, cast ballots that clinched Trump’s historic comeback — one that promises to reshape American politics for the foreseeable future.&quot; ::::::::(To new editors, you can make a link like the above by writing: &lt;nowiki&gt;[https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/06/politics/how-donald-trump-won/index.html How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback] &lt;/nowiki&gt;, i.e. put the link, then space, then the title, all in a pair of brackets.) ::::::::[[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 13:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::This would broadly fall under [[WP:OR]] I would think, which is not allowed. At Wikipedia, we follow what [[WP:RS]] reports &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 21:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :My suggestion would be &quot;noted by media as one of the greatest political comebacks in American history.&quot; to the end of the sentence about the victory. I don't think it can go unmentioned, it is a very notable point in his political career, and also helps balance out the lead a little. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Wikipedia is not a headline [[Special:Contributions/68.57.163.100|68.57.163.100]] ([[User talk:68.57.163.100|talk]]) 03:56, 22 November 2024 (UTC) I am now out of this with a confirmed no to the suggested edit, as what we seem to have is [[wp:or]] based upon various sources that do not actually say it was the biggest comeback in US history. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Should be stated as &quot;one of the greatest&quot; anyway, stating it is &quot;the biggest&quot; outright would be fairly contentious. We typically apply this same nomenclature to great sportspersons e.g. [[Lionel Messi]]. It can't really go unmentioned entirely though, it is very widely sourced by [[WP:RSPSOURCES|major, reliable outlets]], and is a major point in his career. Lead reads as incomplete without it. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC) [[WP:NOTOPINION]]: unless you provide reliable sources supporting your opinions, you're wasting your and our time. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/06/trump-presidential-win-comeback/ Trump’s win is his greatest resurrection in a career of comebacks], Washington Post. &quot;Trump’s political revival, unparalleled in U.S. history, follows a long pattern in his life of seemingly insurmountable, self-inflicted catastrophes followed by shocking rebounds.&quot; :[https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly2818j7rko How Trump pulled off an incredible comeback], BBC : &quot;This is surely the most dramatic comeback in US political history.&quot; : [https://gazette.com/news/wex/greatest-comeback-here-s-how-trump-stacks-up-in-white-house-history/article_20127ec4-7bd2-55e8-bfe0-89fd54413e34.html Greatest comeback? Here’s how Trump stacks up in White House history], Denver Gazette. &quot;President-elect Donald Trump pulled off what many are saying is the greatest political comeback in American history by winning a second non-consecutive term despite a felony conviction and the stain of Jan. 6.&quot; :Also, please see the Wikipedia guideline, [[Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers]] and policy [[Wikipedia:Civility]]. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 16:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://nypost.com/2024/11/06/opinion/trump-the-colossus-comeback-king-of-american-politics/ Trump the ‘colossus’ is the comeback king of American politics] NY Post. &quot;We are in the midst of the greatest political comeback in American history — which follows, by eight years, the greatest political stunt in American history.&quot; :[https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2024/11/politics/trump-election-comeback-cnnphotos/ Donald Trump pulled off the ultimate comeback. See how we got here] CNN.&quot;Despite a felony conviction, two attempts on his life and rhetoric that would have surely sunk any other political campaign, he has completed the ultimate comeback.&quot; :[https://www.newsweek.com/trump-just-staged-biggest-political-comeback-american-history-opinion-1861260 Trump Just Staged the Biggest Political Comeback in American History] Newsweek.&quot;You are witnessing the greatest comeback in American political history. :The previous greatest comeback was by Richard Nixon, who lost his race for President in 1960, only to win decisively in 1968 and again in a 1972 landslide. After his resignation, he staged yet another extraordinary comeback, becoming the most influential former president America has ever had.&quot; :[https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4975713-donald-trump-greatest-comeback-since-lazarus/ Back from the dead: Donald Trump is America’s political Lazarus] The Hill. &quot;He is the greatest comeback politician in political history.&amp;nbsp;The closest thing to what Donald Trump has pulled off can be found in 1968 with Richard Nixon.&quot; :[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/how-donald-trump-pulled-off-the-greatest-comeback-in-political-history/ar-AA1tALHy How Donald Trump Pulled Off the Greatest Comeback in Political History] Newsweek.&quot;Donald J. Trump completed the greatest political comeback in modern U.S. history in the early hours of Wednesday, claiming enough electoral votes to defeat Vice President Kamala Harris and return to the White House for a second term.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 17:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{tq|Propaganda isn't 'reliable sources.}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADonald_Trump&amp;diff=1257142107&amp;oldid=1257142033 That]'s disqualifying right there. Sources Wikipedia accepts as reliable: [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources]]. Four of the five sources you presented here are opinion pieces which are generally not acceptable, and one of them is from January 2024 and referred to his win in the Iowa caucuses as the &quot;biggest political comeback in American history&quot;. CNN's ultimate comeback after having been &quot;temporarily render[ed] [] a pariah in mainstream Republican politics after Biden took office&quot; — I think that means final comeback, not single biggest. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::That something exists does not make it encyclopedic. Print media engages in sensationalism, esp. in headlines, to attract eyeballs and sell subscriptions. The Wikipedia is not that. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC) In a review of what reliable sources emphasised when discussing Trump's win in a thread above ([[Talk:Donald_Trump#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20241113115000-Statistic_and_Grover_Cleveland_in_the_lead|see here]]), one conclusion drawn was that {{tq|from this sample, for RS, the most significant thing about this election was it being a political comeback.}} I would have to look at the sources discussing the win more closely to assess how to write it (historic, biggest, attribute or not etc.), but it should be mentioned in the lede to give [[WP:WEIGHT|due weight]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :NO the, lead is a summary of important parts of our article, at best this would warrant one line in the body. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|Slatersteven}} could you elaborate? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yes (per [[wp:lead]]) &quot;In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. It is located at the beginning of the article, before the table of contents and the first heading. It is not a news-style lead or &quot;lede&quot; paragraph.&quot; it only goes in the lead if it is a major part of our article. It is hard to see how a throwaway headline can ever be spun out into a major section. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|Slatersteven}} I imagine you think including the fact about being the second president to win non-consecutive terms should be removed on the same basis. Do you agree? I am not opposed to merely including that {{tq|In the 2024 presidential election, Trump defeated the Democratic candidate, incumbent vice president Kamala Harris, winning the popular and electoral college votes.}} ::::I am not sure how to determine if his win should receive more context in the lede than that. If it should, it should be this fact, given that at this time, it is the one RS think is the most significant element of his win. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If it is not in the body it should, not be in the lead, however, I am gonna suggest the fact this is an unconvertible fact, means it has a place in the article. Where as it is debatable if the claim this was historic does. I said I was out of here with a firm no to including this, it remains a no. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::We don't have to describe it as &quot;historic&quot; etc, if that would be UNDUE. Simply &quot;multiple media outlets characterized his win as a political comeback&quot; could work. Whatever we choose &lt;ins&gt;if we choose to include something&lt;/ins&gt; it should a) be in the body, b) reflect the emphasis placed by RS, including reflecting to how RS describe it ''as a political comeback''. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I will also convert vote totals among minority voters (when they're fully counted and considered official) to percentages with a link to the official numbers to show his historic performance among minority voters for a republican candidate. This will add some balance to the sensationalized, prevailing media narrative of DJT's supporters being &quot;white supremacist, misogynistic, Nazi, etc, etc&quot; garbage they continue to spew forth while also showing a growing realignment of political bases within the parties. I can add this to whatever section it would fit best in to show a bit more fairness or balance to the article/page. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 09:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :IP, Yes it was indeed the biggest political comeback in US history. Would support a write-up of it, in the page. Afterall, it's only an opinion (also) that Trump is (for the moment, at least) considered the worst president in US history. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 13:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC) Users need to read [[wp:lead]], the lead is not there for emphasis it is a summary of our article. If it aint in the body it aint going in the lead, and one line can't be summarized with one line. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Then let's remove the election victory as a whole, and his being the second president elected to non-consecutive terms, as they're both only discussed in one line in the body... It's a highly notable point in his political career that is widely agreed upon by major, reliable sources. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::BY all means remove them if you wish. But two wrongs do not make a right.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::[[WP:LEAD]] doesn't even support your argument. &quot;As in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources.&quot; This is a major point in establishing his political notability, and widely supported by reliable, published sources. Many of the points in this lead are also concisely noted in the body, exactly how this article is meant to be written given the extent of his career. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Try the first line &quot;In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. &quot; and &quot; (latter on) &quot;Significant information should not appear in the lead, apart from basic facts, if it is not covered in the remainder of the article, although not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text.&quot;, This is not a &quot;basic fact&quot;. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::It is covered in the body, and should be expanded to include other sources. It is a basic fact if firmly agreed upon by reliable sources. [https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2024/11/politics/trump-election-comeback-cnnphotos/ CNN] [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-wins-2nd-term-historic-return-white/story?id=115358710 ABC] [https://apnews.com/article/election-day-trump-harris-white-house-83c8e246ab97f5b97be45cdc156af4e2 AP] [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/czxrnw5qrprt BBC] Keep in mind I'm not agreeing with the &quot;biggest&quot; wording. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 13:03, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{tq|It is a basic fact if firmly agreed upon by reliable sources}} see [[WP:VNOT|Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I'm not using that to argue its inclusion; it should be included because it's one of the most notable points in his political career, such to the point where it should even be in the lead. Their point was it was {{tq|not a basic fact}}, and thus should not be included, which is simply false given that many reliable sources disagree. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 13:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC) So again, a firm no. Time for an RFC? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Could we give this a bit more time before we escalate? I will have a go at working on the body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC) == FORUM == There has been a lot of [[WP:NOTFORUM]] vio going on here of late. Including a number of experienced editors. I'm curious: *Do these editors know they are violating policy? *If so, can they explain themselves please? *What, if anything, should be done about this? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :*I think what we maybe seeing is good faith efforts to deal with requests that are not policy compliant themselves. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Go [[WP:TROUT]] them or something &lt;/sarcasm&gt;. It’s incredibly unlikely anyone is going to be sanctioned by an admin for anything short of uncivil behavior. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 12:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::I must have missed when somebody was sanctioned for uncivil behavior without a trip to [[WP:AE]]. But I'm not looking for sanctions.{{pb}}I mean, we sometimes collapse NOTFORUM vios, but that's not really practical when it's interspersed with constructive non-vios every fourth comment. Even if I did that, I'd look like a self-appointed Talk Page Sheriff unless I had help from a few others. There's just too much of it going on, and I know better than to piss off ten experienced editors at the same time. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 14:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yea, that's kind of what I meant, I've never seen anyone sanctioned at AE for NOTFORUM (that wasn't a blatent civility issue as well). I digress though, you kind of highlighted why there's not much we can do. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 17:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Tell ya what. I'll start posting on user talk pages and see if that has any beneficial effect. I could use some help with that, by anybody who cares about keeping this page functional. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) I am moving discussion of [[WP:FORUM|FORUM]] and [[WP:BITING|BITING]] to this more relevant thread. Context is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump#c-104.230.247.132-20241113115500-Slatersteven-20241113114700 an IP apologizing] for not knowing how to link to sources. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :Appreciate the help with how to link articles Bob, thank you and sorry to others for not linking directly. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 13:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::[[WP:NOTFORUM]]: not a help desk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::It may be [[WP:NOTFORUM]] but its just a small tip in a relevant discussion to help the IP out, its nice to just be helpful sometimes and may encourage them to make an account and be an active participant in [[Wikipedia| the project]]; [[WP:NOBITING]] &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 21:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Best practice here would be to post a note on their [[WP:UTP|user talk page]] to avoiding BITING and FORUM. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 22:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::There was a discussion of this at the policy talk page in the section [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&amp;oldid=1257755875#4._Discussion_forums Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#4. Discussion forums]. It appears it is OK to make a brief, related, helpful technical suggestion on the article talk page for the benefit of various editors. Cheers, [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 14:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC) == Latter half of the opening paragraph == Does anybody have a &lt;u&gt;formal&lt;/u&gt; proposal for the second half of the opening paragraph? That's all the info relating to the 2024 election results? It's been ten days &amp; counting, so we need a stable version in place, between now &amp; the inauguration day. PS - For goodness sake, &lt;u&gt;don't&lt;/u&gt; add &quot;current&quot; or &quot;currently&quot; before (if included) &quot;president-elect&quot;, as it's a useless descriptive. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 04:50, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I wholeheartedly support forming a consensus to put an end to all the back-and-forth (stabilize). Since it would be a temporary consensus as you say, it wouldn't need a consensus list item, just an archived discussion (e.g., this one) that we could point to in a DO NOT CHANGE hidden comment. No opinion on content. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC) == Biography organization == Hi {{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}, I saw you moved the discussion of religion and family back to &quot;Early life and education&quot;. I don't think there are any good options here, as the article is not structed as a biography. The article to compare to would be [[Ronald Reagan]], as he is the most recent president that is a [[WP:FA|featured article]] (and helpfully he also had a prominent pre-political career). Some thoughts on reorganization to better meet this I'd like to hear your perspective on: * Break up the section [[Donald Trump#Wealth]], placing most into Business career where it is relevant. * Break up religion paragraph into the bits relevant to early life, and then a brief discussion in presidency discussing the relevance to his relationship to religion as president. * [[Ronald Reagan#Marriages and children]] is placed a lot more chronologically. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 18:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I'll get back to this tomorrow, too complicated for my addled brain today. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I'm generally not too fond of &quot;one size fits all&quot;, including {{tq|conform[ing] to others on Wikipedia, for example Donald Trump's two predecessors, Barack Obama and Joe Biden}}. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=763156990 This is the edit] that moved &quot;Personal life&quot; to the top of the body on February 1, 2017. I wasn't editing here at the time, briefly looked for discussions in the archive but nothing jumped out at me. I never questioned it because it made sense to me: family, wealth, tabloid and later media personality — it's all interwoven and difficult to separate into business/profession/political positions (whatever the subject is notable for) and personal life with spouse(s)/kids, hobbies, etc. Seven years later one editor shows up, questions it, and it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1257458585&amp;oldid=1257457258 gets fixed] a few minutes later (see &quot;MOS Layout&quot;, above). Good process — no dillydallying with time-consuming discussions. :[[MOS:SNO]] also says: {{tq|Because of the diversity of subjects it covers, Wikipedia has no general standard or guideline regarding the order of section headings within the body of an article.}} [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :As I said in the edit summary, Trump's personal details have been part of his public persona for more than 40 years and shouldn't relegated to the end of his bio like an afterthought. I moved them back to the top of the body, along with the &quot;Racial views&quot; and &quot;Misogyny/sexual misconduct&quot; sections that had been newly added to the &quot;Personal life&quot; section. I agree that these two sections also deal with views and conduct predating his first term as president and continued throughout his political career. The &quot;Public image&quot; section is gone, so there's no other logical place for these sections. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::I'm still thinking about the best way to address this. I will narrowly respond in two ways: ::*Racial views and misogyny could be folded under a s section 2 heading #Prejudice. ::*There is an ongoing discussion at [[Talk:Public image of Donald Trump#Article scope]] which is relevant and I hope you'll participate. It's responding to me cutting down the article 20% of its size ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Public_image_of_Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256508735 seen here]) based on the principles laid out at the top of the discussion. ::[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::Disagree, Space4Time3Continuum2x. I object to organizing this article based on your personal preferences. Please read all of [[MOS:SNO]]. Exceptions are given and this isn't one of them. Why didn't you contribute to the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_176#MOS_Layout MOS Layout] thread? -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've spent a bit of time thinking through my objection to commenting further at this time, and it has been resolved. Susan sums up my thoughts here. We can reopen to the MOS Layout thread before it's archived to discuss further or simply restore. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 21:00, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Already gone.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1257834791] &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:05, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::My mistake, thanks for the correction. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 21:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::{{u|Mandruss}}, is there a procedure to restore the MOS Layout thread? I'll assume that Space4Time3Continuum2x was occupied elsewhere and didn't get a chance to weigh in. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 13:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::No procedure, just do it (using copy-and-paste) or ask someone to do it. I did it. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{tq|based on your personal preferences}} — the layout predates my first edit of this article by more than a year. Considering the number of editors who have collaborated on this page, there have been astoundingly few objections to this particular feature (none, until now, that I recall). The full text of MOS:SNO is Wiki-vague, as usual: {{tq|Because of the diversity of subjects it covers, Wikipedia has no general standard or guideline regarding the order of section headings within the body of an article. The usual practice is to order body sections based on the precedent of similar articles. For exceptions, see Specialized layout below.}} No general standard or guideline vs. usual practice. I think you may have misunderstood the &quot;exceptions&quot;. They are types of articles where layouts are {{tq|generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow '''though occasional exceptions may apply'''.}} Bolding added by me, i.e., even for these exeptions, where editors are advised to &quot;attempt to follow the generally accepted standard&quot;, &quot;occasional exceptions may apply&quot;. And about a precedent you cited in &quot;MOS Layout&quot;: [[Barack Obama]] has an &quot;Early life and career&quot; section with &quot;Family and personal life&quot; following &quot;Education&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::By the time I saw the &quot;MOS Layout&quot; thread, it had already been closed saying Rolling &quot;fixed&quot; the flagged grave violation of — uh — usual practice within minutes. Bold edit, I challenged, needs to be discussed. I've already commented here, don't see any point in reopening &quot;MOS Layout&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Space4Time3Continuum2x}} :::::* [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=763156990 The edit] that moved up &quot;Personal life&quot; is from a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Atvica blocked] possible sockpuppet. :::::* Donald Trump is a human being like everybody else. What section is it that you want to front load? :::::* We have some leeway. Do you want to restore a §Public image section? :::::* We had an objection just [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258150213&amp;oldid=1258122470 yesterday] to starting with §Personal details. :::::* Right you are that MOS:SNO is vague. But it's an indication of why most Wikipedia biographies begin with §Early life. More examples: [[Louis XIV]], [[Elon Musk]], [[Mao Zedong]], [[Nelson Mandela]], [[Adolf Hitler]], [[Benito Mussolini]], [[Vladimir Lenin]], [[Charles de Gaulle]], [[Joe Biden]] and [[Ronald Reagan]]. [[George W. Bush]] and [[Barack Obama]] both have §Personal life higher than I'd like, and they both begin with §Early life and career. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::*I don't have anything to add here beyond that we still have a section for Public image: Assessments#Public. Content was moved out of #Public image for the reasons laid out in most depth at [[Talk:Public image of Donald Trump#Article scope]]; I earnestly hope you both could weigh in at that discussion as it needs more eyes and as you can see it affects this article. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I looked at the 10 or so edits the alleged sockpuppet made at this article. They all improved the formatting or fixed poor wording, e.g., replacing &quot;2000 presidential candidacy&quot; with &quot;2000 presidential campaign&quot;. The [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258150213&amp;oldid=1258122470 &quot;objection&quot;] replaced &quot;Personal details&quot; with &quot;Early and personal life&quot; — I can live with that. The editor did not object to the positioning of the material I restored to that section at the top of the body. I don't know what to make of {{tq|Trump is a human being}} and {{tq|front load}}. Are you accusing me of something? {{tq|both have §Personal life higher than I'd like}} — sounds like {{tq|personal preferences}} to me. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}? May we close the restored MOS Layout thread? -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::&lt;small&gt;{{ping|Rollinginhisgrave}} No, there's no Public image section, only a Public subsection of Assessment. I won't be contributing to your thread on Article scope which discussed a narrow issue (orange skin). I am spread too thin over several threads. Thank you. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; ::::{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}, nobody is accusing you of anything. ::::*Your personal preferences show (&quot;I can live with that&quot;) same as me (I don't plan to edit [[Barack Obama]] or [[George W. Bush]] to match my prefs.). ::::*May we close the restored MOS Layout thread? ::::*To answer your question, Trump is just a man, and he merits a biography that's no different from everybody else's. (Here's the dictionary definition of [https://www.dictionary.com/browse/front-load front load].) I'm just asking you, what sections do you want to come early? Do you want to add a §Public image section? -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 18:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've changed Assessment#Public to Assessment#Public image in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1258448886 this diff]. &lt;small&gt;{{u|SusanLesch}} It's on me cutting 80% of the article, orange skin is just an example. No fuss if you are spread too thin, what you have been able to spare is appreciated.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}, I removed the Religion section because it was word for word the same as a paragraph in Early life. If Religion is one of the sections you want front-loaded then I'll move the first one down (it has all the original refs). I asked for the MOS Layout thread to be archived. Can you please answer which sections you want to appear at the top? Right now we look bad with &quot;Early and personal life: Early life, education, family&quot; which is empty and repetitive. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 19:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}} at this time, we have two editors in favor of the rearranged section order and one against. This is a very very weak majority, especially in light of the long-standing page consensus. How would you like us to proceed? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC) == Proposal to rename [[Racial views of Donald Trump]] == There is currently a proposal to rename [[Racial views of Trump]] at {{slink|Talk:Racial views of Donald Trump|Changing the title|nopage=y}}. Editors here are invited to participate: this will impact the section heading &quot;Racial views&quot; in this article per [[WP:SUMMARY|summary style]] [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC) == Recommended biography == Can anyone here recommend a Trump biography? My plan is to read one good biography. Looking at [[Bibliography_of_Donald_Trump#About_the_books_about_Trump|the bibliography]], maybe ''[[What Were We Thinking]]'', or one by Philip Rucker and Carol Leonnig, Jonathan Karl, Bob Woodward, Jennifer Mercieca, Maggie Haberman, Fred Trump III, ? Other than a historical bias learned from my mother, I have no horse in this race, and am trying to keep an open mind. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 14:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :See [[WP:NOTFORUM]] [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 17:05, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::Pardon me, [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]]. I daresay this article comes up short and I'm offering to help. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump#Books Book sources] are an impoverished list given the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bibliography_of_Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1257626144#About_Trump number of books about the subject]. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:12, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::Taking my marbles and going home. I settled on Mr. Lozada's ''[[What Were We Thinking]]''. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::&lt;s&gt;That's fine, and we appreciate your efforts, but a Wikipedia talk page just isn't the place for this&lt;/s&gt; [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 17:34, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|Farkle Griffen}} I think Susan was inquiring as to the quality (reliable, comprehensive) of high-quality sourcing on the subject for the purposes of editing, which is an important function of talk pages. Perhaps Susan could have rewritten to be clearer as to her intent, but in cases where intent is unclear to us, it's best to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] (which can involve asking an editor for clarification of they believe their comment is on topic). ::::{{u|SusanLesch}} I don't think ''[[What Were We Thinking]]'' is a biography in the strictest sense. From my similarly limited familiarity with sourcing on the subject, it seems like biography, particularly pre-presidency, will have to be sourced primarily to biographies 2017 and before such as ''[[Trump Revealed]]''. ::::For a retrospective assessment of the Trump presidency and afterwards, which is necessary for assessing what reliable sources put emphasis on, the best sources I have seen aren't necessarily exclusively about Trump, but have a chapter on broad-strokes of his presidency. For domestic policy for example, see ''[https://www.routledge.com/The-Presidency-and-Domestic-Policy-Comparing-Leadership-Styles-FDR-to-Biden/Genovese-Belt-Lammers/p/book/9780367508746? The Presidency and Domestic Policy: Comparing Leadership Styles, FDR to Biden]''. I'm interested to read ''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv201xj05 The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: A First Historical Assessment]'', but reading reviews on such a book will be particularly important: as I &lt;del&gt;read them&lt;/del&gt;&lt;ins&gt;read them (books)&lt;/ins&gt; I'll create stubs for them to share findings with other editors like I have with ''[[Cocoa (book)|Cocoa]]'' and ''[[Unsavory Truth]]''. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:01, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:09, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::::That's a fair point. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 20:11, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{u|Farkle Griffen}}, sorry for the misunderstanding. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Questions for you, [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]]. First, the book sources seemed to be slim pickings given the number of books about Trump. I appreciate the work that editors have done using Kranish &amp; Fisher, which does appear to have been helpful. I am comfortable with Leonnig, Woodward, Haberman, and am interested in [[Jennifer Mercieca]] because it looks like she studied Trump's speech patterns. Decided on Lozada because, for one thing, I don't wish to become a scholar of Trump. Lozada is a Pulitzer-winner who was able to sort through the 150 or more books about Trump. I could be mistaken easily, and it would help to have a guide. Don't you agree his perspective would be useful? Is the Zelizer book you mention here a collection of essays/papers? Another good way to get a birds eye view. Sorry I can't invest the time in something like ''The Presidency and Domestic Policy''. One other criterion: if any of the bibliography list is available free on the Internet Archive that would be a selling point. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::{{u|SusanLesch}} The book sources are certainly slim. I expanded the use of Kranish &amp; Fisher a few days ago as a proof of concept in replacing news articles with books, but I will revise. If we're covering the presidency, there's two elements of sources to prioritise: retrospective and [[WP:SCHOLARSHIP|academic]]. ::::::::*[[Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America|Haberman]] is interesting, I haven't read about it. Might be the best for biographical details. ::::::::*Mercieca is interesting as well; we're a few years out so might be good to read recent reviews. ::::::::*[[What Were We Thinking|Lozada]] would be useful to the page, but I think it serves a different purpose to what you identified in your first two sentences. ::::::::*Yes, Zelizer is a collection of essays; I'm most looking forward to any introductory material which attempts to synthesise. ::::::::*''The Presidency and Domestic Policy'' would probably actually be the easiest, since it is one chapter which is relevant (the one on Trump). ::::::::I'm sc(k)eptical much will be available on the Internet Archive; it's been cut down mercilessly recently. If you need access to a source, email me. Hopefully I'll be able to construct an annotated source list over the next few weeks. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 07:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Thank you! I'm leaning to Haberman because you thought it sounds interesting. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 13:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}}P.S. Suggest we don't underestimate the Internet Archive. I went through the first [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_Donald_Trump#About_Trump half of the bibliography] and found these. Most of the others are available only to persons with print disabilities. *Never Enough: Donald Trump and the Pursuit of Success *The case against Trump *Where's Trump? Find Donald Trump in his race to the White House *Man Enough? Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, and the Politics of Presidential Masculinity *The Little Book of Trumpisms *Trump: A Graphic Biography *If Only They Didn't Speak English *Big Agenda: President Trump's Plan to Save America *Choosing Donald Trump: God, Anger, Hope, and Why Christian Conservatives Supported Him *In America: Tales from Trump Country *Trump: Anatomy of a Monstrosity *Trump This! The Life and Times of Donald Trump, An Unauthorized Biography -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Thanks for doing this, very helpful. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::Unfortunately our luck ran out after the oldest 50 books. The rest of the list found only: ::*in Arabic only: Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House ::*audio: Donald Trump v. The United States ::So overall I tend to agree with you about the Internet Archive's utility for this project. Maybe something will help. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 00:40, 18 November 2024 (UTC) == Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8 == {{atop|This is involved closure, which is permitted when consensus is sufficiently clear.{{pb}}Consensus to cancel [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 8. Currently 8&amp;ndash;3 Support and it would take a dramatic trend reversal to change the outcome. Closure subject to challenge by reversion, as always. Barring that...{{pb}}Eligible for manual archival after this time tomorrow, and I will change the consensus list. The article should not be changed until then. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC)}} Item 8 requires including that &quot;Trump was the first U.S. President without prior military or government service&quot; in the lead. A LOT has happened since 2016 (when this item was added) that deserves mention in the lead, and in proportion, this detail is very minor. Currently this random trivia takes up about as much space the entire mention of Covid-19. In the same vein as my previous post, we need to start making room in the lead for the soon-to-come paragraph about his 2nd term. Including minor trivia like this is not the precedent that should be set. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 00:37, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' per proposer. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Comment''' The lede should reflect the emphasis the body places. Do you think the coverage in the lede misrepresents this emphasis? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:Continuing with the example I gave, this only seems to be mentioned for one sentence in the body, and only in passing, whereas Covid-19 takes up several sections, and has a dedicated main article. *:Similarly with nearly every other one-sentence fact currently mentioned in the lead. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::The question of weight emphasis is not on the sentence, but what the sentence is summarizing. Here it is [[Donald Trump#Election to the presidency]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:11, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::Are you suggesting one body sentence provides sufficient weight for inclusion in the lead? If so, you might want to re-think that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:17, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::The questions we are asking are a) does #Election to the presidency receive enough emphasis to be covered in the lede, b) if so, how can we best summarize it while giving appropriate emphasis? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::Are they? I thought the question here is: &quot;Should current consensus 8 be canceled?&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::::Yes, as if the answer to those questions creates something similar to consensus 8, the answer is no, if it doesn't, the answer is yes. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:44, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::Obviously I lack the intelligence to comprehend that comment, but I'm guessing you're unhelpfully mixing issues that could be addressed separately, expanding scope, overcomplicating, or something. I responded to the question in the section heading and that was enough for me. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::::::If my comments are incomprehensible that reflects on my communication skills and perhaps on my thoughts being incoherent. I want to make sure when we decide what goes in the lede, we are going beyond what editors personally think is significant. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::As to the six words in question, it looks to me that error was made in 2016, and by your own reasoning we should correct it by removal. There is not enough in the body to justify inclusion in the lead, and that inclusion was the result of the &quot;editorial judgment&quot; dysfunction we've talked about elsewhere. What's the problem? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::Sure, I get that the dysfunction continues in this very thread, but that won't be changed quickly if ever. At least it's looking like the end result will be the correct one, even if the means for getting there was wrong. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::As I note below, I agree. This text does not appear to meet the standards for inclusion so should be removed. Your addendum is interesting. I think it can be changed, at least among the regulars, even if it requires me being a pain. I would have just commented &quot;'''Support''': does not reflect emphasis placed in body&quot; if I thought having editors justify their support beyond editorial judgement wouldn't pressure them to improve their argumentative rigor in the future. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::::{{tq|I think it can be changed, at least among the regulars, even if it requires me being a pain.}} One can dream. Being a much larger meta issue, it should probably be a separate discussion. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::I'd say the very next sentence is handling that well enough. *:::His lack of military experience doesn't seem to be the focus of that section, or the main article linked. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::Agreed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC) * '''Support''' does not seem like something of real significance, certainly not enough for the lead &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|...Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' It seemed important at the time but the lede now has far too many more important things to cover and not much space to do it in.[[User:LM2000|LM2000]] ([[User talk:LM2000|talk]]) 02:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' Agree that it is not nearly as important now as it was eight years ago. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 02:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' as (as far as I can tell) its still true, and in fact will still be true when he next takes office, thus is still current and relevant. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC) **I'm not opposed to its inclusion, provided some expansion in the body, but could you expand on how it follows from the first part of your sentence that this is still relevant? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ***Because it still remains the case that even in his second term he will still never have served in the military. Given how much false imagery of him there is in 8unifiorm it might well be something people will be looking for, his military service. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ****I think the stronger framing for inclusion is around his status/image as an &quot;outsider&quot; politician. Other comments above effectively respond to whether &quot;it still remains the case&quot; is a sufficient justification for retention. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:Are you suggesting being true is enough to justify being in the lead? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 16:05, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::No, I am saying that is still, remains true, and is still as important as it was 8 years ago. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::So, eliminating the part of your argument that applies equally to hundreds of other things omitted from the lead, it's based entirely on your personal opinion of importance. You think that might be influenced by your natural human biases? We all have them, you know. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::No its based on nothing has changed since we added it. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 19:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::Nothing except the passage of eight years during which more stuff was added to the lead, his re-election which means much more stuff will be added to the lead in the coming four years, and the growing consensus that the lead has been too long for some time. I wouldn't call that &quot;nothing&quot;. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::I mean technically, in his second term he will have served in government prior to election... as the president in 2016 &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|...Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support'''. Good choice for preemptive shortening of the lead. Time to look for more of these. Please include the statement somewhere else in the article. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 13:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' - Trump is an important figure not for the many things he did in office, but for how he has broadly affected the politics of the United States. That he was the first real 'celebrity president' is a necessary piece of the story. What should be cut back to make the lead shorter is the details of his first presidency: individual acts and executive orders he signed or agreements he withdrew the US from isn't really the point of the biography: this could be summed up in words to the effect of &quot;Trump's foreign policy was characterized as unpredictable&quot;, &quot;Trump attempted to lower legal and illegal immigration&quot;, etc. Getting caught up in individual details like that misses the woods for the trees: zooming in on microcosms of larger policy patterns (such as the wall, travel ban and family separations to show immigration policy, or the trade war, denuclearisation and treaty withdrawals to show his foreign policy) makes the lead too long and doesn't really present anything important. Trump is responsible for a broad political realignment and societal change, which is what we should focus on in the lead: not &quot;he signed the Tax Cuts &amp; Jobs Act&quot; or &quot;he built The Wall&quot;. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 17:13, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:Ideally, we should just have one paragraph for both presidencies by 2029, summing up What Happened in broad strokes. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 17:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:This seems like a large change in focus compared to what the consensus has become over the years. I think that needs to be a separate discussion. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 19:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::Yes, but it isn't a proposal. What it is are the reasons why I think that the item above is the wrong thing to scrap out of a paragraph which has more obviously cuttable things. That Trump was the most inexperienced man ever to become president is a key part of his bio, far more so than the individual policies he pushed in term one that I'd gun for to reduce the lead's length. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 20:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::Perhaps you can make a separate draft article for the lead to clarify feasibility? Because if I'm understanding you correctly, that seems like it would force us to minimize important detail, and lead to constant, massive edit wars over how to present his story. This article especially. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 20:21, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::I've banged out a quick example here. Don't nitpick it: it's not a proposal, but an illustration of the general direction I think the article should take. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 18:30, 19 November 2024 (UTC){{collapsetop|Example lead}} {{Infobox officeholder| name = Donald Trump| image = President-elect Donald Trump, Wednesday, November 13, 2024, on the South Portico of the White House (cropped).jpg&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE the picture without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 1. --&gt;| alt = Official White House presidential portrait. Head shot of Trump smiling in front of the U.S. flag, wearing a dark blue suit jacket with American flag lapel pin, white shirt, and light blue necktie. | caption = Trump in 2024| office = 45th &amp; 47th [[President of the United States]]| vicepresident1 = [[Mike Pence]]| term_start1 = January 20, 2017| term_end1 = January 20, 2021| predecessor1 = [[Barack Obama]]| successor1 = Joe Biden| term_start = January 20, 2025| term_end = January 20, 2029| vicepresident = [[JD Vance]] | predecessor = [[Joe Biden]]}} '''Donald John Trump''' (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th and 47th [[president of the United States]] from 2017 to 2021 and from 2025 to 2029.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 50. --&gt; Trump graduated with a [[bachelor's degree]] in economics from the [[University of Pennsylvania]] in 1968. After becoming president of the family real estate business in 1971, he renamed it [[the Trump Organization]]. After a series of bankruptcies in the 1990s, [[#Side ventures|he launched side ventures]], mostly licensing the Trump name. From 2004 to 2015, he produced and hosted the [[reality television]] series ''[[The Apprentice (American TV series)|The Apprentice]]''. In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] and became the [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican Party]]'s nominee, leading to the creation of [[Trumpism]]. Trump won the [[2016 United States presidential election|2016 presidential election]] despite losing the popular vote, becoming the first U.S. president without prior military or government service.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding 6 words without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 8. --&gt; His election and policies [[Protests against Donald Trump|sparked numerous protests]]&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding 7 words without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 20. --&gt;. He lost re-election in [[2020 United States presidential election|2020]] but falsely claimed widespread electoral fraud, [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|attempted to overturn the results]], and facilitated the [[January 6 United States Capitol attack|January 6 Capitol attack]]. He ran again in [[2024 United States presidential election|2024]] and won both the electoral and popular vote, making him one of two U.S. presidents elected to serve non-consecutive terms.{{efn|The other being [[Grover Cleveland]], in [[1884 United States presidential election|1884]] and [[1892 United States presidential election|1892]].}} As president, he attempted to reduce the number of refugees and illegal† immigrants entering the U.S., had a foreign policy which was characterized as unpredictable and inconsistent, appointed three† Supreme Court justices, reacted slowly to the [[COVID-19 pandemic in the United States|COVID-19 pandemic]], and pursued an aggressive trade policy.† Many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, racist, and misogynistic.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus, see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], items 30 and 51. --&gt; He [[#Promotion of conspiracy theories|promoted conspiracy theories]] and [[#False or misleading statements|made many false and misleading statements]] during his campaigns and presidencies, to a degree unprecedented in American politics.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], items 49 and 53. --&gt; In 2024, [[Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York|he was found guilty of falsifying business records]],{{efn|Related to [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|his hush money payment]] to adult film actress [[Stormy Daniels]]}} becoming the first U.S. president convicted of a felony.{{efn|He faced more felony indictments related to [[FBI investigation into Donald Trump's handling of government documents|his mishandling of classified documents]] and interference in the 2020 election.}} He was the only U.S. president to be impeached twice†; the Senate acquitted him in both† cases.{{efn|[[First impeachment of Donald Trump|In 2019]] for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress, and [[Second impeachment of Donald Trump|in 2021]] for incitement of insurrection.}} [[Historical rankings of presidents of the United States|Scholars and historians rank Trump]] as one of the worst presidents in American history.†&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 54. --&gt; {{nbsp}} :{{small|†Subject to change following second term}} {{Notelist-talk}} {{collapsebottom}} *:::::How did this thread morph from a proposal to cancel #8 to a discussion of the general direction the article should take? This kind of scope expansion is rarely helpful. I would've suggested: &quot;Oppose. {{tq|The item above is the wrong thing to scrap out of a paragraph which has more obviously cuttable things.}}&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:03, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::It's usually helpful to back up opinions with reasons for why you think that way. It's deliberately collapsed so it doesn't get in the way of others. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 19:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' per nom. Need to start trimming the lead in prepartion to cover his second term. [[User:Spy-cicle|&lt;span style='color: 4019FF;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;&amp;nbsp;Spy-cicle💥&amp;nbsp;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Spy-cicle#top|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style='color: #1e1e1e;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;'''''Talk'''''?&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:43, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *I have no strong opinion on this one. But the mention of protests after his first election 100% is UNDUE in the lead. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:08, 19 November 2024 (UTC) **Agree on protests. They didn't lead anywhere.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 00:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ***So propose that separately. You're off topic here. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:15, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *:I am going to go ahead and say '''Oppose''' for removal of this one. Trump having no prior political experience and being an outsider is central to his brand and movement. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::a) Should him being an outsider also be included in the lede? :::b) [[MOS:LEAD]] says the lede should function as a summary of the body, including reflecting the importance placed on information. This prevents the lead developing separately from the body. Do you think the inclusion of this fact meets this? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Comment''' - It occurs to me that this sentence is not that different from much of the content already removed from the lead ''without objection''. The same arguments about &quot;still important&quot;, &quot;central&quot;, etc., could have been made about a lot of that (and have been in the past). What's different about this one? It's protected by a consensus that precludes BOLD removal. Without that consensus, I think this would have been removed ''without objection''. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *{{Strikethrough|'''Oppose'''. I agree with Tim and R. G. Checkers. Trump posturing himself as an opponent of the Washington elite and career politicians (no matter how disingenuous that actually is) is how he has made it this far as a politician and is relevant to his ongoing re-alignment of U.S. politics along right-wing populist lines. If you need proof, just look at how he's right now filling his cabinet with others who posture as &quot;outsiders&quot; and have no experience. This statement is the easiest way to get this across in the lead.}} — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 20:38, 20 November 2024 (UTC) **The sentence doesn't convey all this, it implies he's incompetent or merely unusual. The sentence should say what you're trying to communicate, e.g. &quot;Key to Trump's appeal is his image as a political outsider.&quot; Moreover, him having an image of an outsider is not mentioned in the body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:47, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ***Actually, your argument convinces me. I change my !vote to '''Support''' removal, as I think the &quot;political outsider&quot; angle is sufficiently conveyed by other parts of the lead (especially identifying his movement as &quot;right-wing populist&quot; in nature). — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ****{{small|Omg, someone was swayed by discussion. Somebody frame that and hang it on the wall! &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC)}} {{abot}} === Process question === We can cancel item 8, or we can supersede it with a new item 68. The difference is that cancellation would merely return the situation to normal BRD process (as if consensus 8 had never existed), while supersession would preclude this lead content without another consensus. Which do we want? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC) To my mind, we could cancel until there are repeated BOLD attempts to re-add this, thereby maybe justifying a superseding consensus. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:15, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Reverting consensus 20 == Bringing two comments down from [[Talk:Donald Trump#Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8]] to a new thread. They are addressing the sentence {{tq|His election and policies sparked numerous protests}} in the lede. I have no strong opinion on this one. But the mention of protests after his first election 100% is UNDUE in the lead. R. G. Checkers talk 00:08, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :Agree on protests. They didn't lead anywhere.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :'''Support''' The lead in general needs to be trimmed, I think we should focus on the information with the most [[WP:RS]] coverage for the lead. I am not sure how we will determine what constitutes as &quot;enough RS coverage for the lead,&quot; perhaps we will need another topic for this. &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::Some of us think it should be &quot;enough RS coverage for the body&quot; and &quot;enough body coverage for the lead&quot;. Body comes first. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::I think that would be a good determining factor. I suppose it would then be down to &quot;What constitutes enough body coverage for the lead?&quot; But I am again getting off topic and will leave this for another discussion &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The question is not of volume, but of quality. We need retrospective coverage that puts it into the context of his life/presidency to determine emphasis. And from this, as {{noping|Mandruss}} notes, lead follows body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' - Clearly UNDUE and maybe even RECENTISM that should have never been in the lead in the first place, and certainly not now. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC) **Could you expand on why you understand this fact is given [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]]? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:59, 19 November 2024 (UTC) **:Protests happen for every president. Just because the protest had a more people come does not mean it needs to be I in the lead. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC) **::{{tq|Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources.}} What does your comment have to do with UNDUE? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 21:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC) **:::Look at this sentence instead: {{green|Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the''' depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement''', the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery}} [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC) **::::An article can discuss information in great depth, in a lot of text etc while still maintaining [[WP:NPOV|a neutral point of view]]. The way it can do that is by {{tq|fairly represent[ing] all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources}}. You need to determine the emphasis of reliable sources first: looking at information and thinking &quot;that's a lot of detail [for something like this or otherwise]&quot; is insufficient for determining if it is DUE. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 09:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support removal''' Needs to be significant trimming in the lead to fit in the 2nd term info. The protests against him are less important to cover relative to other infomation in the lead. [[User:Spy-cicle|&lt;span style='color: 4019FF;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;&amp;nbsp;Spy-cicle💥&amp;nbsp;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Spy-cicle#top|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style='color: #1e1e1e;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;'''''Talk'''''?&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 06:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose''', as I think it's fair to say his latest election has also led to protests. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:54, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. &quot;Other stuff may happen that we may want to include&quot; isn't a rationale for removing. The protests included the largest single-day protest in U.S. history at the time (it's been surpassed by the George Floyd protests in 2020). AFAIK, no other president's election has resulted in protests, especially not with the protesters far outnumbering the spectators at the inauguration. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:01, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *:It is mentioned briefly in the body. This is not defining of trump himself. We don't need room for things that are going to happen we need room for things that ''already have happened''. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Question''' What has changed to constitute this change? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 04:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *:We (with Farkle Griffen doing most of the heavy lifting) are finally taking on serious lead reduction, essentially raising the DUE bar for the lead. The lead is down 40% from two weeks ago. Under discussion is whether this item still clears the bar. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' the poor [[pussyhat]]s didn't accomplish anything. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support'''. A little bit below the threshold of importance for inclusion in the lead. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 20:45, 20 November 2024 (UTC) * '''Support''', not particularly notable. [[User:Irruptive Creditor|Irruptive Creditor]] ([[User talk:Irruptive Creditor|talk]]) 08:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == PEIS revisited, yet again == According to my experimentation, the addition of ~12 typical-sized citations would cause the article to exceed the system-imposed [[WP:PEIS]] limit. When that happens, templates near the bottom of the article start breaking with an error message. Otherwise, the article is fine; nobody is even aware there's a problem unless they scroll down there and see the message. Still, it's a problem worth addressing and I think it's better to be proactive than reactive about this. Possible solutions: *Reduce [[WP:OVERCITE]]. *Remove content, with the associated citations. *This was a recurring problem in the past (see archive). Eventually, someone removed one or more navboxes at the bottom, which freed up a huge amount of PEIS. I don't know if there is more potential reduction in that area. Other kinds of templates will also contribute to PEIS, but I don't know how much without looking into it more. Anyway, the PEIS limit would appear to impose an arbitrary upper limit on article size, assuming the number of citations is roughly proportional to article size&amp;mdash;and this article is very close to that limit. Maybe that's not all bad? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:35, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :Lots of overciting, been meaning to tackle it but it's a lot of reading. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :Did the change to short footnotes cause any part of this? If so I'm sorry. I will try to lessen overcites when I run across them. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 19:48, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::I see a total of six footnotes. Not a significant contribution to the problem. Thanks for asking. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::Oh boy. Page size said 15672 words today, which is over the top limit at [[WP:SPLIT]]. I have never seen an article fail but golly, I'm retracting my proposal to rewrite Early life without prejudice. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I'm possibly looking in the next weeks at proposing we apply [[User:Trainsandotherthings/The Earth Test|The Earth Test]], which should be appropriate given the extensive use of [[Template:Main]]. Does anyone here have initial rejections of this as my activities are lining up with that direction. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Looks like an arbitrary limit, and Wikipedia hates arbitrary limits. Why not get us as far as possible into summary style and then see where we are? That might well be all we need in the area of article reduction. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Update: Edits have increased the ~12 to ~37. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Merge the offices in Trump's infobox? &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;I think that we should merge the offices in Trump's infobox. What do y'all think?&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == Here is a new infobox I've designed in my [[User:WorldMappings/sandbox|user sandbox]]. {{cot|Proposed infobox. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)}} {{Infobox officeholder | image = Donald Trump official portrait.jpg&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE the picture without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 1. --&gt; | alt = Official White House presidential portrait. Headshot of Trump smiling in front of the U.S. flag, wearing a dark blue suit jacket with American flag lapel pin, white shirt, and light blue necktie. | caption = Official portrait, 2017 | order = 45th &amp; 47th&lt;!-- DO NOT ADD A LINK. Please discuss any proposal on the talk page first. Most recent discussion at [[Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 65#Link-ifying &quot;45th&quot; in the Infobox?]] had a weak consensus to keep the status-quo (no link). --&gt; | office = President of the United States | vicepresident = [[JD Vance]] (elect) | term_start = January 20, 2025 | succeeding = [[Joe Biden]] | vicepresident1 = [[Mike Pence]] | term_start1 = January 20, 2017 | term_end1 = January 20, 2021 | predecessor1 = [[Barack Obama]] | successor1 = Joe Biden | birth_name = Donald John Trump | birth_date = {{Birth date and age|1946|6|14}} | birth_place = [[Queens]], New York City, U.S.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE (or add to) this location without prior consensus; please see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 2. --&gt; | party = [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] (1987–1999, 2009–2011, 2012–present) | otherparty = {{plainlist}} * [[Reform Party of the United States of America|Reform]] (1999–2001) * [[Democratic Party (United States)|Democratic]] (2001–2009) * [[Independent politician|Independent]] (2011–2012) {{endplainlist}} | spouse = {{plainlist}} * {{marriage|[[Ivana Zelníčková]]|April 9, 1977|December 11, 1990|end=divorced}} * {{marriage|[[Marla Maples]]|December 20, 1993|June 8, 1999|end=divorced}} * {{marriage|[[Melania Knauss]]|January 22, 2005}} {{endplainlist}} | children = {{flatlist| * [[Donald Jr.]] * [[Ivanka Trump|Ivanka]] * [[Eric Trump|Eric]] * [[Tiffany Trump|Tiffany]] * [[Barron Trump|Barron]] }} | mother = [[Mary Anne Trump]] | father = [[Fred Trump]] | relatives = [[Trump family]] | awards = [[List of awards and honors received by Donald Trump|Full list]] | alma_mater = [[University of Pennsylvania]] ([[Bachelor of Science|BS]])&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE this college or diploma without prior consensus, see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 63. --&gt; | net_worth = &lt;!-- Keep empty, per [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 47. --&gt; | occupation = {{hlist|[[Political career of Donald Trump|Politician]]|[[Business career of Donald Trump|businessman]]|[[Media career of Donald Trump|media personality]]}} | signature = Donald Trump (Presidential signature).svg | signature_alt = Donald J. Trump stylized autograph, in ink | website = {{#invoke:list|unbulleted|{{URL|https://www.donaldjtrump.com|Campaign website}}|{{URL|https://www.trumplibrary.gov/|Presidential library}}|{{URL|https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/|White House archives}}}} | module = {{Listen|pos=center|embed=yes|filename=Donald Trump speaks on declaration of Covid-19 as a Global Pandemic by the World Health Organization.ogg|title=Donald Trump's voice|type=speech|description=Donald Trump speaks on the declaration of [[COVID-19 pandemic|COVID-19 as a global pandemic]] by the [[World Health Organization]].&lt;br /&gt;Recorded March 11, 2020}} }} {{cob}} [[User:WorldMappings|WorldMappings]] ([[User talk:WorldMappings|talk]]) 21:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC) == Proposal to add brief description of Trumpism in lead == Should the lead contain a brief description of [[Trumpism]], which it currently mentions without further explanation? I added one, but Farkle Griffin [[Special:Diff/1258652829|reverted]] me, citing length concerns. I agree with the recent lead cuts, but the statement &quot;Trump created Trumpism&quot; without further description is meaningless, and I think it benefits readers to briefly explain what he stands for politically without requiring them to click through and read the lead of the other article. Here is a brief, 12-word proposal: &quot;In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement, {{tq|characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, [[protectionism]], and loyalty to himself.}}&quot; The specifics are up for debate. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 21:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :I completely disagree with this proposal. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 15:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Neither support nor oppose here, but what are your thoughts on simply including it in a footnote? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 22:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::I think it's important enough to state outside of a footnote. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 22:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :Maybe something along these lines? :&quot;In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]], during which he promoted [[nationalism]], [[anti-establishment]] rhetoric, and [[List of conspiracy theories promoted by Donald Trump|conspiracy theories]]. His policies and rhetoric led to the [[Trumpism]] movement.&quot; [[User:Rexxx7777|Rexxx7777]] ([[User talk:Rexxx7777|talk]]) 22:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::I prefer a mention of &quot;[[right-wing populism]]&quot; to &quot;anti-establishment rhetoric&quot;, as that is how this article currently describes his positions; the other article also helps connect Trump's rise to the global context of emergent figures such as [[Viktor Orbán]], [[Giorgia Meloni]], [[Jair Bolsonaro]], and [[Javier Milei]]. I also think mentioning &quot;'[[America First (policy)|America First]]' nationalism&quot; is better than &quot;nationalism&quot; alone, as that article helps explain the non-interventionist and economic protectionist elements of Trump's brand of nationalism, which is not implied by simply stating &quot;nationalism&quot;. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *At a minimum, this should be added to the body before considering adding it to the lede. Trumpism is not really discussed in the body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *:Perhaps not all in one sentence, but the body does in fact mention Trumpism, right-wing populism, America First, and protectionism, and even his cult of personality. I think my proposal does a good job of tying this all together. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *::It doesn't relate these to Trumpism. It also doesn't mention the &quot;loyalty to himself&quot; comment. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *:::What is Trumpism but the rhetoric, ideology, and political actions of Donald Trump, which form the bulk of this article's content? The last part about &quot;loyalty&quot; I am less confident in than the rest, and will bow to opposition to it. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:57, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *::::I am not opposed, I am just asking that the lede doesn't develop separately from the body per the [[MOS:LEAD|manual of style]]. The lede shouldn't be the only place that &lt;del&gt;defines Trumpism.&lt;/del&gt; &lt;ins&gt;defines Trumpism. How you define Trumpism is also at odds with the lede of [[Trumpism]]: {{tq|a political movement in the United States that comprises the political ideologies associated with Donald Trump and his political base.}}&lt;/ins&gt;[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I am slightly modifying my proposal to this: {{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which gave rise to [[Trumpism]], a political movement characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[protectionism]].}} — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 00:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::I think loyalty to Trump is an important part of it.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 03:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yeah, but it's kinda implied by the name. Let's give our readers the credit of putting together that &quot;Trumpists&quot; are loyal to Trump [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 05:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::For a few weeks we have been discussing the need for this kind of addition in multiple talk pages. Some editors agreed, some didn't. For me this seems mandatory, since Trump winning the first election is the most notable event of his life and it needs proper context. In my opinion Goszei additions to the second paragraph manage to make that description clear and concise. Editor @[[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] reverted them with explanation &quot;overdetail&quot;. I disagree, there is a missing flow in the lead that is filled in by these additions, they are also not overdetailed and the second paragraph has space for them. ::::Goszei edit: ::::{{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which gave rise to [[Trumpism]], a political movement characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[protectionism]].}} ::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258693326&amp;oldid=1258687981 the reversion] by Nikkimaria: ::::{{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement.}} ::::Also another detail that said &quot;and focused on luxury accommodation&quot; was removed. It helps to define what Trump was known for. Before that the lead went in even more detail with the kind of properties Trump invested in. ::::Similarly to what @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] is saying I do not believe that the &quot;loyal to himself&quot; part is needed. ::::I've done 2 reversions in the last 24h so I'll avoid going further, someone else can reinsert these if there is consensus. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:31, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The lead does not need any more detail, particularly (as noted above) detail that is not in the body. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::but they do are in the body. you could argue there is a repetition from general rethoric before being a president to the official acts, but it's different imo. ::::::and him having mostly luxury accomodations has now completelly disappeared, I'll edit that in since I don't see any reason to remove it and gives proper context. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 00:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Added the details back by connecting them directly on Trump and not on Trumpism, as it was noted here before. Should be good now. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 00:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Nope, definitely not good, those additions should be reverted until you've got consensus for them. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::The &quot;luxury accomodations&quot; part was present in the lead for a very long time in an even more developed form, so why revert that? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Regarding the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1259044948&amp;oldid=1259032069 main diff] that has been reverted by @[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ::::::::::In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] &lt;u&gt;characterized by [[Right-wing populism|right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[Protectionism|protectionism]]&lt;/u&gt;, which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement. ::::::::::How do other editors feel? Is this relevant enough for the lead and properly present on body? ::::::::::@[[User:Goszei|Goszei]] @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] @[[User:Rexxx7777|Rexxx7777]] @[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] @[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] (editors that participated in this discussion) @[[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] @[[User:Mandruss|Mandruss]] @[[User:Thistheyear2023|Thistheyear2023]] @[[User:Димитрий Улянов Иванов|Димитрий Улянов Иванов]] @[[User:PizzaKing13|PizzaKing13]] @[[User:750h+|750h+]] @[[User:BootsED|BootsED]] (editors of the newer 50 edits) ::::::::::If you got the time please motivate your reasoning in favor or against this addition, so that we can look for consensus. If this is too close I will consider doing a RfC for it. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::I'd support it's inclusion as it appears to be an accurate description. Thanks, [[User:Димитрий Улянов Иванов|Димитрий Улянов Иванов]] ([[User talk:Димитрий Улянов Иванов|talk]]) 14:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::Since you pinged me, I'll reply. '''I completely agree with [[User:Moxy|Moxy]]'s edit, and therefore disagree with the inclusion of content'''. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 14:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::I think the most important thing is that it keeps mention of Trumpism. I like the edit before it was removed, and thus support the inclusion. If the consensus is to remove the edit, as long as Trumpism is still mentioned, I am okay with it. The page for Trumpism mentions how it is right-wing populist as nationalist. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 20:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :What would this ass we do not already say? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::For me it is a mather of order and logical steps. This is what he said and did before being a president, what made him popular. The formulation is in the right place in the lead (second paragraph) and feels more direct that just refering to policies later on. This is consistent with the lead of [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]], for exemple (no comparison between individuals but of how to develop an high quality complex lead). Antisemitism is mentioned in paragraph 2, while he was not in power, despite references to his antisemitic policies obviously having a spot later. ::For me, this how a lead should be written. Anything else is sloppy and with major logical holes. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::So this would not add anything, just change the order of the lead? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == muslim ban formulation on lead == @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] Since I did one revert already on the page I will refrain to go further and I am opening a discussion to discuss that precise phrase. This is the version that was recently added and that I find the best: {{tq|In his first term, he [[Executive Order 13769|ordered a travel ban]] limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries}} and this is yours: {{tq|In his first term, he ordered the &quot;[[Executive Order 13769|Muslim ban]]&quot; limiting refugees}} I really feel like the first formulation is extremelly more clear. It manages to say in a couple of words what that executive order was about, previous formulations and your latest are difficult to grasp for someone who is not already familiar with the topic. Why did you feel the need for the change? And what do other editors think? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 23:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :I also want to point out that the current lead is not too long. Editors have done an egregious job in the last few weeks to shorten it and put elements in the right place. So, in my opinion, that should not be an argument to prefer one over the other. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 00:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I support the original version. The new version is not clear enough. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 01:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::Agree. The original version is more comprehensive at the cost of only a few extra words if length is concerned. &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 01:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I only re-added it because your edit summary removing it had to do with a different edit. You're still free to revert it now that you've included an explanation. :However, to respond to your post here, I don't see what information it loses, and it also removes a somewhat [[WP:LINKCLARITY|unclear link]] &quot;ordered a travel ban&quot; in favor if the order's common name. :If anything I think this is clearer. The ''point'' of the bill was to limit Muslim immigration, but, as previously phrased it sounds like he ordered a general travel ban that ''just so happened'' to limit refugees. Using the order's name adds information, and makes this point better and much more concisely. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::The way the first reads to me implies that it '''limits''' Muslim refugees from entering the country by placing the limitation on ''Muslim-majority countries.'' The second one, to me more-so implies an outright ban to all Muslim immigration which would in turn limit refugees &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 01:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::That's fair. I still think the item's name should be used instead of the current link. :::But also, wouldn't this reasoning extend to the other items in the sentence as well? :::&quot;Trump ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries, funded the Trump wall expanding the U.S.–Mexico border wall, and implemented a family separation policy at the border, separating migrant children and parents.&quot; [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::We need to achieve a balance between brevity and accurately explaining the policies. &quot;Funded the Trump wall&quot; borders on too vague as well, and doesn't convey that the wall already existed and that he expanded its length. My preferred wording here is {{tq|ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees, expanded the wall on the U.S.{{endash}}Mexico border, and implemented a family separation policy.}} — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 02:04, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::&quot;We need to achieve a balance&quot; :::::Are you suggesting there's a way to measure that balance? Or are you just saying yours is perfectly balanced and we should use that? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 05:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::My proposal contains as many words as I think are needed to explain without being inaccurate or misleading. Other editors can disagree, especially on the &quot;misleading&quot; part, and propose their own. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 05:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I agree with what Goszei is doing, trying to refer to policy not only with a catch all journalistic nickname but actually working on a proper, short summarization that fairly represents the policy. One is easier to do but actually useless to the reader, the other is complex but carries meaning. His latest proposition, {{tq|ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees}}, seems good to me. Also because there were ecceptions on the list of countries targeted. I will edit that in and let's see if we can agree on it. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 11:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tq|Muslim ban}} falsely implies that the ban applied to all Muslims, but {{tq|ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries}} also misrepresents what the order actually did (it suspended all entry from those countries, not just refugees, which was a separate provision). If we want to indicate that the ban targeted Muslims (which civil rights organizations and similar groups claimed was its not-so-secret purpose, which was supported by reporting such as [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/29/trump-asked-for-a-muslim-ban-giuliani-says-and-ordered-a-commission-to-do-it-legally/]), perhaps we could compromise with the wording {{tq|ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees}}. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:47, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == Has Trump been convicted of a felony? &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Trump has not been convicted of a felony&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == The jury had merely returned a verdict. Only a judge can convict someone - a judge can still throw the jury's verdict away. While extremely rare, it can happen. Wikipedia's definition agrees: &quot;A convict is &quot;a person found guilty of a crime and sentenced by a court&quot; or &quot;a person serving a sentence in prison&quot;. Source: [[Convict|Convict - Wikipedia]] Notice it says &quot;found guilty of a crime&quot; AND &quot;sentenced by a court.&quot; Only a judge can do the latter. According to the American Bar: &quot;The''' decision of the jury doesn t take effect until the judge enters a judgment on the decision''' - that is, an order that it be filed in public records.&quot; Source: [https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/judgment/ How Courts Work - Americanbar.org &quot;Judgement&quot;] So no, Trump has not been convicted of any felony. All that has happened is a jury has returned a verdict. Please change the lede to reflect Wikipedia's own definition of convict as well as basic knowledge of how courts work. Thank you! [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 08:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :This has already been explained to you elsewhere on this page, but here goes with another attempt.{{pb}}As I told you, Wikipedia may not be used as a source for itself. So why did you link to that Wikipedia article again?{{pb}}As someone else told you, &quot;convicted&quot; (verb or adjective) and &quot;convict&quot; (noun) are not equivalent. One can be convicted without being a convict. Is English your first language?{{pb}}See [[Wikipedia:No original research]]. Excerpted from its very first paragraph:{{tq2|To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are {{em|directly related}} to the topic of the article and {{em|directly support}}{{efn|A source &quot;directly supports&quot; a given piece of material if the information is present {{em|explicitly}} in the source so that using this source to support the material is not a violation of this policy against original research. For questions about where and how to place citations, see [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]], {{section link|Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section|Citations}}, etc.}} the material being presented.}}You have yet to present a single reliable source that mentions Trump and says he has not been convicted. Therefore the &quot;directly&quot; requirement has not been met.{{pb}}I will close this as resolved if no one else has commented within 24 hours. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::Did you not see the American Bar website I posted? Lol ::Convict is a noun: &quot;CONVICT is a person '''convicted''' of and under sentence for a crime. How to use convict in a sentence.&quot; ::You do know the judge can throw away the verdict right? The fact is, he's not convicted of a felony. Prove he is if you can. Show me. It's not up to me to prove a negative - it's up to you to prove a positive. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::Since you apparently have a hearing problem, I'm not wasting any more of my time trying to speak to you. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If Trump is a convicted felon, he will not be able to travel to the UK and Canada. ::::Will he be able to travel to the UK and Canada? Yes or no? ::::[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/why-donald-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-yet/ar-BB1no6oV Why Donald Trump Isn't A Convicted Felon (Yet)] ::::[https://www.foxnews.com/politics/yale-law-professor-outlines-potential-trump-legal-strategy-following-guilty-verdict-nation-needs?msockid=1248a7002eb9682a14dcb4682f186918]https://www.foxnews.com/politics/yale-law-professor-outlines-potential-trump-legal-strategy-following-guilty-verdict-nation-needs?msockid=1248a7002eb9682a14dcb4682f186918 &quot;You are not convicted until the judge enters that judgment of guilt.&quot; [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::FINALLY, you produce sources that at least meet the minimum policy requirements. Now it's a question of [[WP:WEIGHT]], since many other reliable sources say he's been convicted. I'll leave that to others. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Here I will add some references, I can see you have kinda had an unpleasant time with this topic, I will try and be more prim and proper with my efforts. The most relevant section here is &quot;Despite media reports, Rubenfeld insisted that it’s “not true” that Trump is already a “convicted felon,” arguing that one is “not a convicted felon because of a jury verdict.” ::::::“You are not convicted until the judge enters that judgment of guilt. Now, in New York, it’s very likely that [https://nypost.com/2024/06/07/us-news/judge-merchan-alerts-trump-lawyer-manhattan-das-office-to-facebook-comment-purportedly-made-by-a-jurors-cousin/ Judge Merchan] will enter that judgment of guilt against Trump on the same day that he issues sentencing. That’d be July 11th.” https://nypost.com/2024/06/08/us-news/yale-law-professor-says-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-despite-guilty-verdict-heres-why/ [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 13:21, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::See [[WP:NYPOST]]... [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 07:13, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::I see you deleted my question, fair enough it is here. I saw it explained by a US lawyer that one cannot be a felon until sentencing, especially as that can involve discharge without conviction. And its not just a technicality, the restrictions of felony status don't kick in until that time. I asked the AI and it says the same. And the previous commentator has a few references saying the exact same. It seems the most correct phrase is that he &quot;has been found guilty&quot;. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 13:15, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::This is somewhat accurate, to provide a bit more clarity: conviction does not occur until ''after'' sentencing, with there still being time for additional legal proceedings such as appeals beforehand - so yes he has technically been found ''guilty'' by a jury, however he is '''not''' a convicted felon &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :He has been convicted, he has just not been sentenced, which is independent of a guilty verdict. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::I have to agree with @[[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] here ::From my understanding Trump has been found guilty by a jury in certain cases, but he has not yet been ''formally'' '''convicted''' because the judge has not entered a conviction by imposing a sentence. Conviction only occurs ''after'' sentencing, and in some cases, there may be additional legal proceedings (like appeals) before that happens. &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::I think the point being missed is that our understanding has nothing to do with it. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:53, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Well this is not really an understanding but more-so just the way that the legal system works... I have not yet had a look at the sources to see what [[WP:RS]] is supporting that he is a '''convicted''' felon, but if it is just news outlets then I would not think we should rely on them for something such as this for the sake of accuracy. Wikipedia does not have any concrete rules but more-so guidelines so if we are reporting on what RS has said about this, then I think we should do so with the indisputable legal facts in mind and use sources that know what they are talking about rather than just regurgitating what a reporter is claiming ::::If there is something I have missed or overlooked then please disregard my comment &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::No, you may have a point. I vaguely recall doing something like that once or twice in the distant past. This thread got off to a bad start because the OP has no editing knowledge, and the first five comments are basically useless distractions. I think an experienced editor should start a new thread and we could close this one. It's likely to end up a long one. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I understood the entire time you wanted me to link to a news source or something like that. But I shouldn't have had to because Trump not being a convicted felon is truism. It doesn't need a source. It'd be like asking for a source that Trump isn't Santa Claus or a German citizen. It's just a fact he isn't. You essentially put the burden of proof on the defendant. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:26, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Yeah it is just news outlets. But I added and the other guys added news outlets quoting a legal professor showing it isn't true. And then we have the Bar association, where we can see the professor is right. I will attach the sequence of trial. Here is the key bit. &quot;The decision of the jury doesn t take effect until the judge enters a judgment on the decision - that is, an order that it be filed in public records.&quot;. And that hasn't happened yet. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/judgment/ [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 23:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}}{{u|Liger404}} Thankyou for your work here. Unfortunately, what you're describing above is considered [[WP:OR|original research]]: have a read of the &quot;Smith and Jones&quot; example in that page. None of the secondary sources you or other editors have found at this time are considered [[WP:RS|reliable]], I've had a quick look and couldn't find anything either. The best place to go from here would be to ask the [[WP:RDH|reference desk]] or [[WP:LAW|Wikiproject Law]] if reliable sources verify this. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 10:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :It's not OR to check that the words we use accurately reflect their definitions. News media are not expert sources for law, they are merely sources for what happened. If they use terms incorrectly, then we should fix it. :Technically, a jury returns a guilty verdict and a judge enters a conviction. The judge may however ignore the jury's verdict of guilt and not record a conviction or enter a conviction following a verdict of not guilty. Also, the conviction is not considered final until all appeals have run out. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 11:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|The Four Deuces}} I am possibly stretching the Smith and Jones example too far. I don't like relying on news sources, so I don't want to take too firm a stand. I hope {{u|voorts}} doesn't mind if I ping him in here. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::He was found guilty by a jury. In New York, a judgment of conviction is issued after sentencing. However, the distinction between being found guilty by a jury and a court issuing a judgment is so in the weeds that I don't think it matters which one we use. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 14:16, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thankyou voorts. This addresses my main concern that we as non-subject matter experts were unaware of relevant facts. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 16:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I'd say it matters whether this article's lead says Trump is the first U.S. president convicted of a felony. A lot. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:10, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::voorts is a lawyer from New York, and is speaking from such a perspective as to whether the distinction is important. I imagine the alternative would be &quot;found guilty by a jury of felony crimes&quot; etc, do you see a significant loss from such a switch? Alternatively &quot;convicted felon&quot; would be used and the reference to primary sources would be footnoted. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 18:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If reliable secondary sources say convicted, we should say the same. See [[WP:VNT]]. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 20:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::How do you think this applies the fifth example given in the #How can we tell section of [[WP:WSAW]], also an essay? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:56, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I don't think it's &quot;obviously inaccurate&quot; to say that Trump was &quot;convicted&quot; because colloquially, a jury finding someone guilty is referred to as a conviction. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 21:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Makes sense, thankyou for your input here. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:22, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::I'm unconvinced it's wise to use a colloquialism for something that important. It's an encyclopedia. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I do not think the standard we are seeking here is being excusably inaccurate. If he was going to be sentenced and become a felon in the next few weeks, I would agree. But this is a detail that matters, Trump being the first Felon President would be historic. However because he will not be a felon until sentenced, and because sentencing has not been postponed until after he is president it is not clear that Trump will ever become a felon. Therefore it is actually a substantial error that we are saying this, as it is not true and is quite possibly never going to become true. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Sorry that is supposed to show that sentencing HAS being postponed. So the feloney status will not be applied for at least 4 years, if ever. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:29, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::It matter substantially because the sentencing is now delayed until at least after the Presidency and possibly indefinitely. This fundamentally changes an essential fact. Trump at this stage does not seem likely to ever actually become a felon, or at least not for 4 years. The distinction matters for this reason, because it fundamentally changes the feloney outcome. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I disagree, because even Wikipedia states only a judge can convict: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdict#Criminal_law ::::&quot;A verdict of guilty in a criminal case generally requires evidence to be tested and true beyond reasonable doubt and is normally followed by a judgment of conviction rendered by judge, which in turn be followed by sentencing.&quot; ::::It should be consistent. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :The news source I attached is the Washington post. Surely that's reliable? But perhaps more importantly it's quoting a US law professor. I have the guys YouTube video on the matter if that helps? Surely expert legal opinion is the highest level of source? [[Special:Contributions/115.189.93.186|115.189.93.186]] ([[User talk:115.189.93.186|talk]]) 00:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Surely the New York post and a Yale law Professor are reputable sources? A mainstream newspaper and an Ivy league subject matter expert. https://nypost.com/2024/06/08/us-news/yale-law-professor-says-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-despite-guilty-verdict-heres-why/ or if you want the actual Podcast, so the direct words of a Yale Constitutional law Professor, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u23t__ysVjU&amp;ab_channel=ProfessorJedRubenfeld [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::The NY Post is not a reliable source - see [[WP:NYPOST]] for the reasons why and the multiple discussions surrounding that. One law professor is certainly a reliable source for their own opinion - but that does ''not'' mean that their opinion is to be treated as fact and reported in &quot;wikivoice&quot; (i.e. saying &quot;Trump was convicted&quot; or not). That source would be reliable to report that in the opinion of that professor, Trump is not a convicted felon at this time. But the plurality (if not majority) of reliable sources are reporting he has been convicted. It matters not what the &quot;technical&quot; definition of the word is - it matters how it's used in common English. In common English, the word &quot;convicted&quot; can either mean &quot;final judgment has been passed&quot; ''or'' &quot;a jury has returned a verdict of guilty and there is no sign that it is going to be overturned&quot;.{{pb}}That said, I think there's a simple solution here. Why do we not just change &quot;convicted of a felony&quot; to &quot;found guilty of a felony (by a jury)&quot; with the parenthetical not being necessary in my opinion but... -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &amp;#124; [[User:berchanhimez|me]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:berchanhimez|talk to me!]] 08:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yes my same proposal was a change in language to &quot;Has been found guilty&quot;, although perhaps is is worth saying &quot;Has been found guilty in the ongoing case xyz&quot; . Felon is common parlance means someone who lives with the legal restrictions of a felony. Travel,voting guns rights, jobs ect. Because Trump does not yet have felony status, and now with the sentencing indefinitely delayed until at least after the presidency, Trump will not have felony status, and may never. So he isn't a &quot;felon&quot; in the way you would use the word when say, selling him a gun, filling out a travel visa or a job application. I do also have a Hindustan Times report that sames the same, referencing the same professor basically. I see they are considered semi accurate on that list. https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/us-news/trump-not-a-convicted-felon-yet-yale-law-professor-trashes-hush-money-trial-verdict-crime-is-so-unclear-101717926723371.html [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The word &quot;felon&quot; is not currently anywhere in the article and is not currently an issue. If someone tried to add it, I would oppose simply because it's unnecessarily [[MOS:LABEL|&quot;labelly&quot;]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Well ok, but it says &quot;convicted of a felony&quot; which is incorrect. And its incorrect in a way that matters, because it's no longer clear that this will ever happen, and if it will happen seems certain to be years away. And I would say a reasonable person reading that line would interpret it as Trump now being a convicted felon. Thus the language is misleading in an important way about a historically significant event. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 09:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == order of sentences on lead == I tried to change the order of sentences on lead, following the logic that would describe his first presidency and comments on third paragraph, and putting informations related to officials trials and such on fourth. There is no perfect &quot;chronological&quot; order either way, and that felt smoother to me, and it avoids mixing together two different kind of facts that are taking different paths (journalistic commentary or judicial system). @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] why do you feel that the other formulation is better? For other editors, this is the diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258711727&amp;oldid=1258705669 [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == description of his political approach on lead == For a few weeks we have been discussing in multiple sections on talk the need to have something that would relate to Trump rise to power. Some editors agreed, some didn't. For me this seems mandatory, since Trump winning the first election is the most notable event of his life and it needs proper context. In my opinion Goszei additions to the second paragraph manage to make that description clear and concise. Editor @[[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] reverted them with explanation &quot;overdetail&quot;. I disagree, there is a missing flow in the lead that is filled in by these additions, they are also not overdetailed and the second paragraph has space for them. Goszei edit: {{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which gave rise to [[Trumpism]], a political movement characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[protectionism]].}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258693326&amp;oldid=1258687981 the reversion] by Nikkimaria: {{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement.}} Also another detail that said &quot;and focused on luxury accommodation&quot; was removed. It helps to define what Trump was known for. Before that the lead went in even more detail with the kind of properties Trump invested in. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I had not noticed that there was already an [[Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal to add brief description of Trumpism in lead|ongoing discussion]] for this. Please refer to that one! [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:28, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == It makes no sense to separate military service from government service == There are civilian contractors who are distinct from the military. Civilian contractors are not part of the government, whereas the military is part of the government's department of defense. In fact, the chief commander of the military is the president. Indeed, the department of defense is the largest department of the government in terms of number of employees. Therefore, the sentence 'Trump won the 2016 presidential election and became the first U.S. president without prior military or government service.' makes no sense and should be reworded to 'Trump won the 2016 presidential election and became the first U.S. president without prior government service.' Just my 2 cents. [[Special:Contributions/206.176.149.191|206.176.149.191]] ([[User talk:206.176.149.191|talk]]) 12:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :But a teacher is not in the military, and an artillery man is not a teacher. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::I would say teacher has government service at the city level. ::[[Special:Contributions/216.165.197.66|216.165.197.66]] ([[User talk:216.165.197.66|talk]]) 13:07, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::Err, yes, that is my point, they are however not soldiers. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :This has been brought up over and over, see talk page archives. We have an existing [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]], [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 8. Unless you have significant new arguments, we will not revisit that consensus.{{pb}}Anyway, there is [[Talk:Donald Trump#Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8|a proposal to remove this factoid from the lead]], using the &quot;significant new argument&quot; that it no longer earns its keep in our substantially-reduced lead. It's looking like the proposal will pass, which would moot this discussion. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Have always found it weird that when these templates are implemented..... the primary data people are interested in place of birth age etc are now moved to the bottom of the template. &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold;color:darkblue&quot;&gt;[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]&lt;/span&gt;🍁 01:42, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Watering down of criticism == Re; [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1258943656 this reversion] of my edits. Hi {{u|ValarianB}}, I explained my edits as aligning the text with the sources. If you would like to reinstate the previous version, ensure the text better aligns with the sources. For context, I changed a sentence from: :{{tq|His embrace of far-right extremism and harsher rhetoric against his political enemies have been described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, [[Donald Trump and fascism|fascist]]}} :→ {{tq|His harsher rhetoric against his political enemies has been described by some historians and scholars as authoritarian, [[Donald Trump and fascism|fascist]]}}. I also removed several sources for not verifying this information and the descriptor of embracing far-right extremism. I did this per my readthrough of the sources, seeing if they were verifying the text, seen below. {{collapse top}} {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; ! |Populist |Fascist |Authoritarian | |- |https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/27/magazine/trump-rallies-rhetoric.html |Yes: NYTvoice |Debated, some changed their mind as of 2021 | | |- |https://www.vox.com/2023/11/14/23958866/trump-vermin-authoritarian-democracy | |Debated in 2021, Voxvoice yes | | |- |https://www.axios.com/2023/11/13/trump-vermin-fascist-language-speech | |Some historians describing rhetoric 2024 | | |- |https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/trumps-fascistic-rhetoric-only-emphasizes-the-stakes-in-2024 | |NewYorkerVoice |NewYorkerVoice | |- |https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/11/donald-trump-authoritarian-second-term | |VanityFairVoice |VanityFairVoice | |- |https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/07/trump-second-term-isolationist-fascism/674791/ |SME scholar |&quot;Variety of academics&quot; SME: Could be a fascist in 2nd term based on promises |SME scholar | |- |https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-compares-political-opponents-vermin-root-alarming-historians/story?id=104847748 | |Ambiguous: some historians or historians generally | | |- |https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/12/trump-racist-rhetoric-immigrants-00183537 | | |Some experts |Some experts &quot;Nazi ideology&quot; |- |https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/10/trump-authoritarian-rhetoric-hitler-mussolini/680296/ |SME historian | | | |- |https://www.axios.com/2024/10/11/mark-milley-trump-fascist-bob-woodward-book | | | | |- |https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/10/12/mark-milley-donald-trump-fascist/ | | | | |- |https://www.thebulwark.com/p/mattis-told-woodward-he-agreed-trump | | | | |- |https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/22/politics/trump-fascist-john-kelly/index.html | | | | |} {{collapse bottom}} As seen, only four sources are discussing the attitudes of historians and scholars as classes re; 2024 conduct. I clarified that this was held by &quot;some&quot; scholars and historians; none of the sources made a stronger claim except ambiguously the ABC News piece on historians views of fascism; the rest all qualified with &quot;some&quot;. Many sources didn't discuss historians or historians at all. Those four sources actually discussing attitudes among historians and scholars were retained. Two sources mentioned populism, both subject matter experts, although only one in the context of Trump's 2024 rhetoric and neither commented on beliefs among historians and scholars as a class. Populism as a descriptor was removed, it is already mentioned in a more relevant place earlier: {{tq|Trump's political positions and rhetoric were described as right-wing populist.}} Only one source supported the descriptor &quot;embraced far-right extremism&quot;, and it was entirely sourced to the analysis of a non-subject-matter-expert journalist; insufficient for an [[WP:EXTRAORDINARY|extraordinary]] claim. Citing academic consensus to news pieces is already insufficient but is retained until further reading can be performed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 16:35, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :{{Ping|Rollinginhisgrave}} I agree with you. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 00:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Still counting votes == {{atop|Resolved per OP. Eligible for manual archival after this time tomorrow. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:23, 22 November 2024 (UTC)}} [[Peter Baker (journalist)|Peter Baker]]'s analysis says today that when the votes are all in, Mr. Trump's total will fall below 50%. We should prepare to state that he ran three times, was elected twice, and never won the popular vote.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=The ‘Landslide’ That Wasn’t: Trump and Allies Pump Up His Narrow Victory|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/22/us/politics/trump-election-landslide.html|last=Baker|first=Peter|date=November 22, 2024|access-date=November 22, 2024|work=The New York Times}}&lt;/ref&gt; {{talk-reflist}} -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:47, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :It does not require winning the majority of popular vote to win the popular vote. In European presidential elections, the winner almost never wins the majority of the popular vote, only more popular vote than the other candidates. [[Special:Contributions/216.165.197.66|216.165.197.66]] ([[User talk:216.165.197.66|talk]]) 17:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thank you for the correction! -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 19:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::That is OR, it's also all rather irrelevant as we do not know yet if he did or did not win the popular vote (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/popular-vote). [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:07, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::The New York Times source linked above says &quot;With some votes still being counted, the tally used by The New York Times showed Mr. Trump winning the popular vote with 49.997 percent as of Thursday night&quot;. This directly contradicts the idea that you need to win a majority to &quot;win&quot; the popular vote. The dictionary definition linked also doesn't claim that you need to win a majority to &quot;win&quot; the popular vote. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:14, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Ahh I see, and where did Harris come?. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::She's at ~48.3% at the moment. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:29, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::That is what winning the popular vote means, he got more votes. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Think we're in agreement, have another readover of the thread. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:38, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Yes, we know. The OP said {{tq|Trump's total will fall below 50%}}, when the test is whether he falls below Harris. This entire thread has been for clearing up that point. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thank you for the correction! (I'm not the best at counting votes.) Baker says in this article that &lt;b&gt;{{tq|&quot;Mr. Trump won the popular vote for the first time in three tries.&quot;}}&lt;/b&gt; Still I think we need to prepare for Mr. Baker's point {{tq|&quot;he prevailed with one of the smallest margins of victory in the popular vote since the 19th century and generated little of the coattails of a true landslide.&quot;}} despite Mr. Trump's claims. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{u|Mandruss}}, this can be archived. No more corrections needed. Thanks. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:21, 22 November 2024 (UTC) {{abot}} == Overdetail == @[[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]], you removed [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259051300 this] edit claiming overdetail. I disagree and think it adds much needed information to the page and is well-sourced. I copied over three sentences from the rhetoric page I thought would enhance the main page, but left the vast majority of information out, as I myself do not want to overdetail the main page. The content was copied within the relevant section. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 02:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :There is already considerable discussion of rhetoric and related concepts incorporated into the rest of the article, including the claim that he is populist/nationalist, use of demeaning and derogatory language, and his rejection of the 2020 election results. If you wanted to reorganize the existing content to move it into the rhetoric section, I would have no objection, but I don't think we need to add new content there. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::My added content did not mention his rejection of the 2020 election results. I think you are referring to the mention of the &quot;[[big lie]]&quot; which in this case refers to the propaganda technique, which is why it is in the rhetoric section. The &quot;big lie&quot; mentioned elsewhere refers to the lie of a stolen election itself. You are correct that it is mentioned he is populist/nationalist elsewhere, but not including a mention of this in the section called &quot;political practice&quot; seems like an oversight. ::The one sentence in question I added was: {{tq|Research has identified Trump's rhetoric as heavily using vitriol, demeaning language, [[false equivalency]], exclusion,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Stuckey |first1=Mary E. |date=20 February 2020 |title=&quot;The Power of the Presidency to Hurt&quot;: The Indecorous Rhetoric of Donald J. Trump and the Rhetorical Norms of Democracy |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/psq.12641 |journal=Presidential Studies Quarterly |volume=50 |issue=2 |access-date=14 September 2024 |pages=366–391 |issn=0360-4918 |doi=10.1111/psq.12641}}&lt;/ref&gt; and [[Nativism (politics)|nativist]]&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Bender |first=Michael C. |date=September 22, 2024 |title=On the Trail, Trump and Vance Sharpen a Nativist, Anti-Immigrant Tone |work=[[The New York Times]] |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/22/us/politics/trump-vance-nativist.html |access-date=September 25, 2024 |quote=Battling in a tight race, the Trump-Vance team is sharpening the anti-immigrant nativism that fueled the former president's initial rise to power in 2016, seizing on scare tactics, falsehoods and racial stereotypes.}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[fearmongering]]{{Efn|Name=&quot;Fearmongering&quot;|Attributed to multiple sources:&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Lim |first1=Hyeyoung |last2=Seungeun Lee |first2=Claire |last3=Kim |first3=Chunrye |date=January 2023 |title=Fear, Political Legitimization, and Racism: Examining Anti-Asian Xenophobia During the COVID-19 Pandemic |journal=Race and Justice |volume=13 |issue=1 |pages=80–104 |issn=2153-3687 |doi=10.1177/21533687221125817 |pmc=9475372}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Bustinza |first1=Monica A. |last2=Witkowski |first2=Kaila |date=19 June 2022 |title=Immigrants, deviants, and drug users: A rhetorical analysis of President Trump's fear-driven tweets during the 2019 government shutdown |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/poi3.313 |journal=Policy &amp; Internet |volume=14 |issue=4 |access-date=14 September 2024 |pages=788–806 |issn=1944-2866 |doi=10.1002/poi3.313}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Nai |first1=Alessandro |last2=Maier |first2=Jürgen |date=4 June 2021 |title=The Wrath of Candidates. Drivers of Fear and Enthusiasm Appeals in Election Campaigns across the Globe |journal=Journal of Political Marketing |volume=23 |issue=1 |pages=74–91 |issn=1537-7857 |doi=10.1080/15377857.2021.1930327 |pmid=38318239 |pmc=10840446 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Jacobsen |first1=Gary C. |date=24 October 2020 |title=Donald Trump and the Parties: Impeachment, Pandemic, Protest, and Electoral Politics in 2020 |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/psq.12682 |journal=Presidential Studies Quarterly |volume=50 |issue=4 |access-date=15 September 2024 |pages=762–795 |issn=0360-4918 |doi=10.1111/psq.12682 |quote=Even if his racially-charged fear-mongering fails to deliver victory, the party image it conveys will not soon fade}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} about immigrants, crime, and minorities as essential to his support.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |last1=Mason |first1=Liliana |last2=Wronski |first2=Julie |last3=Kane |first3=John V. |title=Activating Animus: The Uniquely Social Roots of Trump Support |journal=American Political Science Review |publisher=Cambridge University Press |volume=115 |issue=4 |date=2021 |pages=1508–1516 |doi=10.1017/S0003055421000563 |s2cid=237860170 |quote=Trump's support is thus uniquely tied to animus toward minority groups. Our findings provide insights into the social divisions underlying American politics and the role of elite rhetoric in translating animus into political support.}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |last1=Baker |first1=Joseph O. |last2=Perry |first2=Samuel L. |last3=Whitehead |first3=Andrew L. |title=Keep America Christian (and White): Christian Nationalism, Fear of Ethnoracial Outsiders, and Intention to Vote for Donald Trump in the 2020 Presidential Election |journal=Sociology of Religion |volume=81 |issue=3 |date=14 May 2020 |pages=272–293 |doi=10.1093/socrel/sraa015|quote=In the penultimate year before Trump's reelection campaign, the strongest predictors of supporting Trump, in order of magnitude, were political party, xenophobia, identifying as African American (negative), political ideology, Christian nationalism, and Islamophobia.|hdl=1805/26339 |hdl-access=free }}&lt;/ref&gt;}} The section you removed afterwards was not added by me but already in the article for a while now, and was: &quot;{{tq|Trump uses rhetoric that political scientists have deemed to be both [[Dehumanization|dehumanizing]] and connected to physical violence by his followers.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Nacos |first1=Brigitte L. |last2=Shapiro |first2=Robert Y. |last3=Bloch-Elkon |first3=Yaeli |date=2020 |title=Donald Trump: Aggressive Rhetoric and Political Violence |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/26940036 |journal=Perspectives on Terrorism |volume=14 |issue=5 |pages=2–25 |issn=2334-3745 |jstor=26940036 |access-date=December 16, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Some research suggests Trump's rhetoric caused an increased incidence of hate crimes.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Kunzelman |first1=Michael |last2=Galvan |first2=Astrid |date=August 7, 2019 |title=Trump words linked to more hate crime? Some experts think so |url=https://apnews.com/article/7d0949974b1648a2bb592cab1f85aa16 |access-date=October 7, 2021 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Feinberg |first1=Ayal |last2=Branton |first2=Regina |last3=Martinez-Ebers |first3=Valerie |date=March 22, 2019 |title=Analysis &amp;#124; Counties that hosted a 2016 Trump rally saw a 226 percent increase in hate crimes |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/22/trumps-rhetoric-does-inspire-more-hate-crimes/ |access-date=October 7, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; During his 2016 campaign, he urged or praised physical attacks against protesters or reporters.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=White |first=Daniel |date=February 1, 2016 |title=Donald Trump Tells Crowd To 'Knock the Crap Out Of' Hecklers |url=https://time.com/4203094/donald-trump-hecklers/ |access-date=August 9, 2019 |magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Koerner |first=Claudia |date=October 18, 2018 |title=Trump Thinks It's Totally Cool That A Congressman Assaulted A Journalist For Asking A Question |url=https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/claudiakoerner/trump-gianforte-congressman-assault-journalist-montana |access-date=October 19, 2018 |work=[[BuzzFeed News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Numerous defendants investigated or prosecuted for violent acts and hate crimes, including participants of the January&amp;nbsp;6, 2021, storming of the U.S. Capitol, cited Trump's rhetoric in arguing that they were not culpable or should receive leniency.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Tracy |first=Abigail |date=August 8, 2019 |title=&quot;The President of the United States Says It's Okay&quot;: The Rise of the Trump Defense |url=https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/08/donald-trump-domestic-terrorism-el-paso |access-date=October 7, 2021 |work=[[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Helderman |first1=Rosalind S. |last2=Hsu |first2=Spencer S. |last3=Weiner |first3=Rachel |date=January 16, 2021 |title='Trump said to do so': Accounts of rioters who say the president spurred them to rush the Capitol could be pivotal testimony |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-rioters-testimony/2021/01/16/01b3d5c6-575b-11eb-a931-5b162d0d033d_story.html |access-date=September 27, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; A nationwide review by ABC News in May 2020 identified at least 54 criminal cases from August 2015 to April 2020 in which Trump was invoked in direct connection with violence or threats of violence mostly by white men and primarily against minorities.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Levine |first=Mike |date=May 30, 2020 |title='No Blame?' ABC News finds 54 cases invoking 'Trump' in connection with violence, threats, alleged assaults. |url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/blame-abc-news-finds-17-cases-invoking-trump/story?id=58912889 |access-date=February 4, 2021 |work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} ::Going back in the page's edit history I see that '''the section you removed has been in the page for years''' titled &quot;Incitement of violence&quot; since at least 2022 (didn't want to scroll back further). ::I believe that the high-quality sources which were added also warrant the source's inclusion. Claims over fearmongering, for instance, are not mentioned elsewhere but backed up with the research articles provided in this addition. So there is a lot of new material not mentioned elsewhere in the article as well. ::{{sources-talk}}[[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Slight clarification, when I say you removed the section I mean you removed the section as a standalone as it has been since at least 2022 and put it under &quot;rhetoric&quot;. I believe it needs to remain as a standalone subsection as it has been for years. Not sure if that was clear from my prior comment. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::I don't agree that discussion of specific propaganda techniques should be in this article. I would be fine with moving content from elsewhere in the article into the Political practice section if you feel that is a better organizational approach. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::I also agree that discussion of specific propaganda techniques should not be in this article. The addition was just a sentence that mentioned that he uses the big lie and firehose of falsehood in the Truthfulness section. No further discussion of those two techniques are included on this page. :::I don't see why mentioning Trump's populism/nationalism can't be mentioned in the Political practice section as well as where it is in the other sections of the page now. A quick search reveals it is only mentioned in the election of 2016 section, one section in his first presidency, and once in the election of 2024 section. If someone wants to go to the Political practice section to learn about Trump's politics, it makes sense for at least a mention of populism/nationalism to be there. Again, I agree we should not be going into great detail here, but I think just mentioning it would be due. This is what my edit does. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 05:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If it's already mentioned three separate times, we don't need to mention it a fourth - we need to cut down the existing mentions. Consolidating to the Political practice section would be a good way to accomplish that; adding without consolidating would be the wrong way to go. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 05:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I would be in favor of that proposal, but I am afraid it breaks up the &quot;history&quot; section of the article. If anything, parts of the &quot;Election of 2016&quot; Rhetoric and political positions section should be moved to the political practice section. I would be willing to work on this if you think this is the way to go. I don't want to break any preexisting consensus here [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 20:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Okay, I went ahead and consolidated the sections as you recommended. I am looking at it and I agree, I think it looks much better now. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 21:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::{{u|BootsED}}, nice to meet you. Apologies in advance if I am mistaken. I was dumbfounded to see that you added 12000+ bytes and a whole lot of cites today. Was that really necessary? Sorry I'm relatively new at Donald Trump but can see much concern about this article being too long. I would feel like I was letting everybody down if I tried to do that. Please don't take offense, I would just like to know what's going on. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 22:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Hi Susan, the edit in question re-added an edit that was under discussion. Some mentions of right-wing populism were merged into the political practice section, where some of the information that was already on the page in various places was placed. The bites included lots of citations, which should be viewed separately from word count. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 23:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Thank you, {{u|BootsED}}, that explains it, good. Can you possibly use one or two good sources instead of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1259187646&amp;oldid=1259187101 five] for one sentence? I have [[Jennifer Mercieca]]'s book ''Demagogue for President: The Rhetorical Genius of Donald Trump'' if you need some help. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Hi Susan, ideally no more than six sources should be used. The sources are placed within an efn template to avoid cluttering the page. If you'd like to add your source to the page with a short quotation you are more than free to. I am hesitant to remove sources as many of the sentences deal with contentious material that people will attempt to remove claiming that &quot;two sources isn't enough to say this&quot; or something of that nature. This is why for such claims, I prefer to include as many high-quality sources as possible. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 23:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Clarification, I see you are referring to the media section edit. The two sources up top are directly related to the prior sentence section, and the remaining three are used as the direct sentence preceding it makes claims that are made within those three sources. There are only five sources used, in total, but they are split up to avoid having too many at the end. Other sentences on this page do a similar thing with a similar amount of sources. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 00:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::[[User:BootsED|BootsED]], what I proposed was consolidating the existing content, ''not'' re-adding the edit that was under discussion. Given that, and given that it's a violation of the 24-hr BRD, that needs reverting ASAP please. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 00:08, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thank you for your clarification. With that said, I believe [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259216057 this] content should be added to the page, as it expands upon the information presented within that section and uses much higher-quality sources than the existing content within that section. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 00:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Thank you for reverting. If you believe the existing content is poorly sourced, that's something that should be addressed separately from the question of adding more content. On the latter, the point of [[WP:SS|summary style]] is that the expanding should be accomplished in the subarticles - as above, that seems the better place for elaborating what specific propaganda techniques and rhetorical patterns are employed. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 00:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == &quot;facilitating the January 6 United States Capitol attack&quot; &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id='The claim that Trump &quot;facilitating the January 6 United States Capitol attack&quot; seems to be just an opinon.'&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == Right now the lead states that Trump facilitated the Jan 6 attack. He has never been convicted of such an act and the lead doesn't give a source. Just seems to be an opinion. Trump has not been convicted of any such crimes in relation to Jan 6. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 09:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Just for starters, you may have noticed that the lead doesn't give ''any'' sources. Related citations are in the supporting body content. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::well the Stormy Daniels comment does have a link. But regardless, this claim doesn't re appear in the body and so ultimately remains an unsupported opinion/false accusation. Trump has never been found guilty of any such offence. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 22:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Misogyny and cabinet appointments == A misogynist is a person who hates or discriminates against women.[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogynist] In this article there is the section [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1259134731#Misogyny_and_allegations_of_sexual_misconduct Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct]. Here are some of the positions where Trump has appointed women to cabinet positions in his next administration so far: Attorney general, Secretary of Homeland Security, Secretary of Labor, Director of National Intelligence, United Nations Ambassador, Secretary of Education, Surgeon General.[https://web.archive.org/web/20241123140506/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/us/politics/trump-administration-cabinet-appointees.html] I don't know of any sources so far that reconcile the characterization of Trump as a misogynist and his cabinet appointments of women, and suggest we be on the lookout for such sources so that the article can be appropriately edited. Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 17:43, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Bob, this is a &quot;I have black friends so I can't be racist!&quot; fallacy, as women can be misogynist too. It is not a prejudice exclusive to men. But even beyond that, the president-elect nominating women to his administration does not counterbalance his past words and deeds that numerous reliable sources have characterized as misogynist. {{tq|I don't know of any sources...and suggest we be on the lookout for such sources}} suggests that you have already formed a personal opinion about content to add to a BLP, and hope it can someday be validated. That is literally a textbook example of [[confirmation bias]] . [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 18:11, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::This being said there is an issue in misogyny being in wikivoice while every other prejudice/label is attributed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Well, to be fair, this does just seem like opinion not fact. This isn't supposed to be gossip. Certainly some think he is sexist. But some think he isn't and Wikipedia isn't really supposed to be elevating particular opinions over others. The allegations/liability in sexual misconduct is fact, that bit is solid. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 23:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Actions == Not living in the US, I'm not very knowledgeable about American politics, so it seems fair to ask users to list below all the racist, misogynist, etc. ACTIONS that Trump has committed (I see many controversial phrases said by him, but not racist, misogynistic, etc. actions); in reply to [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259151827]. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 17:52, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == There is no evidence Trump is misogynist == Sure, he called certain women horseface, low life on the campaign trail, but not women in general. There is no evidence Trump is misogynist, which would require him calling all women in general certain derogatory phrases. [[Special:Contributions/216.165.197.66|216.165.197.66]] ([[User talk:216.165.197.66|talk]]) 19:49, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mary_Lawlor_(human_rights_advocate)&diff=1259216700</id> <title>Mary Lawlor (human rights advocate)</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mary_Lawlor_(human_rights_advocate)&diff=1259216700"/> <updated>2024-11-24T00:25:15Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: offices <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Irish academic and human rights advocate}} {{Use dmy dates|date=April 2022}} {{Infobox officeholder|birth_date=1952|birth_place=Ireland|alma_mater=[[University College Dublin]]|office=[[United Nations Special Rapporteur|United Nations Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights defenders]]|term_start=2020|office1=Executive Director of [[Front Line Defenders]]|term_start1=2001|term_end1=2016|office2=Director of the Irish branch of [[Amnesty International]]|term_start2=1988|term_end2=2000}} &lt;!-- need a picture --&gt; '''Mary Lawlor''' is Adjunct Professor of Business and Human Rights in the [[Trinity Business School, Trinity College Dublin|School of Business]] of [[Trinity College Dublin]]. An Irish national, she is currently the [[United Nations Special Rapporteur|United Nations Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights defenders]], appointed in May 2020.&lt;ref name = UNappt&gt;[https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/SRHRDefenders/Pages/MaryLawlor.aspx Ms Mary Lawlor, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights defenders], OHCHR&lt;/ref&gt; She is the founder and former Executive Director of [[Front Line Defenders]] and former director of the Irish branch of [[Amnesty International]]. ==Background== Lawlor was born in 1952 in [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]], the second-eldest of seven sisters, and grew up in [[Kilmacud]], a suburb of [[Dublin]]. She holds a first degree in [[philosophy]] and [[psychology]], from [[University College Dublin]], and postgraduate degrees in [[Montessori education|Montessori teaching]] and [[Human resource management|personnel management]].&lt;ref name=Jackson&gt;[https://www.independent.ie/woman/celeb-news/struggle-to-defend-the-defenders-26284457.html Struggle to defend the defenders], Irish Independent, by Joe Jackson, February 11, 2007&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;UNHR&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title=Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights defenders|url=http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/SRHRDefenders/Pages/SRHRDefendersIndex.aspx|website=UNHR|publisher=UNHR|accessdate=19 May 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; She was married in 1979.&lt;ref name=Jackson/&gt; == Career == The focus of Lawlor's career has been the protection of human rights defenders, after a few early years selling encyclopaedias in Canada, and teaching at kindergarten.&lt;ref name=Jackson/&gt; She joined the Irish branch of [[Amnesty International]] as a fundraiser, after meeting and being inspired by [[Seán MacBride]]. In 1975 she became a member of its Board and for four years from 1983 was national chair. From 1988 to 2000, she led the organisation as its director.&lt;ref name = TBS/&gt; The following year, she founded [[Front Line Defenders]], which actively protects those who work non-violently to uphold the human rights of others, as outlined in the [[Universal Declaration of Human Rights]]. She was the organisation's Executive Director from 2001 to 2016.&lt;ref name = TBS/&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Mary Lawlor appointed UN speci...&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Irish Legal News |date=2020-03-16 |title=Mary Lawlor appointed UN special rapporteur for human rights defenders |url=https://www.irishlegal.com/article/mary-lawlor-appointed-un-special-rapporteur-for-human-rights-defenders |access-date=2020-08-10 |website=[[Irish Legal News]] |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; She helped draw up the ''EU Guidelines on the Protection of Human Rights Defenders'', adopted by the [[Council of the European Union]] in June 2004.&lt;ref name=&quot;Mary Lawlor appointed UN speci...&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;[https://www.gfbv.de/fileadmin/redaktion/Reporte_Memoranden/2013/Memorandum-EU_Guidelines_on_HRDs.pdf The EU Guidelines on the Protectionof Human Rights Defenders], Memorandum by Society for Threatened Peoples, July 2013&lt;/ref&gt; In March 2020, Lawlor was appointed [[United Nations Special Rapporteur|United Nations Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights defenders]], for a three-year term from 1 May 2020, succeeding [[Michel Forst]].&lt;ref name = UNappt/&gt; She was one of the many UN experts who spoke out against the sale of arms to Israel in June 2024 as a result of the [[Gaza–Israel conflict|conflict in Gaza]]. The experts cautioned arms suppliers and finance companies that they would be implicated in human rights violations. The signatories to the warning included special reporteurs [[Paula Gaviria Betancur]], [[Tlaleng Mofokeng]], [[Margaret Satterthwaite]] and [[Francesca Albanese]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=20 June 2024 |title=States and companies must end arms transfers to Israel immediately or risk responsibility for human rights violations: UN experts |url=https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/06/states-and-companies-must-end-arms-transfers-israel-immediately-or-risk |access-date=25 June 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Other roles and awards== Lawlor currently serves on the boards of the [[Irish Council for Civil Liberties]], the University College Dublin Centre for Ethics in Public Life, and the [[Norwegian Human Rights Fund]].&lt;ref name = TBS/&gt; In 2014, she was awarded the Insignia of Knight of the [[Legion of Honour]], for her human rights work.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/human-rights-activist-mary-lawlor-receives-french-honour-1.1855406 |title=Human rights activist Mary Lawlor receives French honour |date=4 July 2014 |work=The Irish Times}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2016 she was awarded the [[Franco-German Award for Human Rights and the Rule of Law]].&lt;ref name = TBS&gt;[https://www.tcd.ie/business/people/mary-lawlor.php Mary Lawlor (biography)], Trinity Business School&lt;/ref&gt; == References == {{reflist}} == External links == *[http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/SRHRDefenders/Pages/SRHRDefendersIndex.aspx United Nations Special rapporteur on the situation of human rights defenders] *[https://www.amnesty.org Amnesty International] *[http://www.humanrightsdefenders.org Front Line Defenders] {{DEFAULTSORT:Lawlor, Mary}} [[Category:United Nations special rapporteurs]] [[Category:Living people]] [[Category:Irish officials of the United Nations]] [[Category:Alumni of Trinity College Dublin]] [[Category:Amnesty International people]] [[Category:1952 births]] [[Category:Irish human rights activists]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&diff=1259215428</id> <title>Talk:Donald Trump</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&diff=1259215428"/> <updated>2024-11-24T00:15:32Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: re <hr /> <div>{{Talk header|hide_find_sources=yes}} {{Controversial}} {{Warning RS and OR}} {{American politics AE|Consensus required=no|BRD=yes|1RR=no}} {{tmbox |image = [[File:Stop hand nuvola orange.svg|48px|link=]] |text = '''Want to add new information about Donald Trump?'''&lt;br/&gt;Please consider choosing the most appropriate article, for example: {{div col}} * [[Indictments against Donald Trump]] * [[Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign]] {{div col end}} ... or dozens of other places, as listed in {{t|Donald Trump series}}. 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|collapsed=y |1= {{Article history |action1=GAN |action1date=15:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC) |action1link=Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 1#GA Failing |action1result=failed |action1oldid=56507759 |action2=GAN |action2date=17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC) |action2link=Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 1#GA failed |action2result=failed |action2oldid=107442121 |action3=GAN |action3link=Talk:Donald Trump/GA1 |action3date= 17 September 2016 |action3result=failed |action3oldid=739866707 |action4=GAN |action4date=03:07, 25 May 2017 (UTC) |action4link=Talk:Donald Trump/GA2 |action4result=failed |action4oldid=782109977 |action5=GAN |action5date=08:44, 2 December 2018 (UTC) |action5link=Talk:Donald Trump/GA3 |action5result=failed |action5oldid=870721866 |action6=GAN |action6date=18:23, 15 July 2019 (UTC) |action6link=Talk:Donald Trump👌/GA4 |action6result=failed |action6oldid=906418948 |action7 = FAC |action7date = 2019-08-31 |action7link = Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Donald Trump/archive1 |action7result = failed |action7oldid = 913215099 |action8 = PR |action8date = 2020-04-29 |action8link = Wikipedia:Peer review/Donald Trump/archive1 |action8result= reviewed |action8oldid = 953988039 |currentstatus=FGAN |topic=Politics and government }} {{Afd-merged-from|Health of Donald Trump|Health of Donald Trump|13 June 2019}} {{Press | collapsed=yes |org=''[[New York Post]]'' |date=November 16, 2013 |author=Cuozzo, Steve |title=Don't Trust Anything on Wikipedia |url=http://nypost.com/2013/11/16/dont-trust-anything-on-wikipedia/ |org2=''[[The Verge]]'' |date2=July 22, 2015 |author2=Popper, Ben |title2=Someone just deleted Donald Trump's entire Wikipedia page |url2=http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/22/9014525/someone-just-deleted-donald-trumps-entire-wikipedia-page |org3=''[[New York Times]]'' |date3=February 1, 2016 |author3=Merrill, Jeremy |title3=On Wikipedia, Donald Trump Reigns and Facts Are Open to Debate |url3=http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/02/us/politics/wikipedia-donald-trump-2016-election.html |org4=''[[Cracked.com]]'' |date4=May 28, 2016 |author4=Germ, Erik |title4=5 Secretly Bizarre Sections Of Websites You Use Every Day |url4=https://web.archive.org/web/20170210205851/http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-truly-bizarre-sections-otherwise-normal-websites_p2/ |org5=''[[The Washington Post]]'' |date5=October 25, 2016 |author5=Guo, Jeff |title5=Wikipedia is fixing one of the Internet's biggest flaws |url5=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/25/somethings-terribly-wrong-with-the-internet-and-wikipedia-might-be-able-to-fix-it/ |org6=''[[The Washington Post]]'' |date6=October 27, 2016|author6=Alcantara, Chris |title6=The most challenging job of the 2016 race: Editing the candidates' Wikipedia pages |url6=https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/presidential-wikipedias/ |org7=''[[BBC News]]'' |date7=December 21, 2016 |author7=Staff Writer |title7=Most-edited Wikipedia pages of 2016 revealed |url7=http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38394685 |org8=''[[The Verge]]'' |date8=January 20, 2017 |author8=Gartenberg, Chaim |title8=Wikipedia editors can't decide if Trump is the president yet |url8=http://www.theverge.com/tldr/2017/1/20/14336626/wikipedia-editors-edit-war-president-obama-trump |org9=''[[The Daily Dot]]'' |date9=June 5, 2017 |author9=Wyrich, Andrew |title9=Someone is trying to get Trump's official portrait deleted from Wikipedia |url9=https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/donald-trump-official-portrait-wikipedia-copyright/ |org10=''[[The Verge]]'' |date10=22 November 2018 |author10=Warren, Tom|title10=Siri thinks Donald Trump is a penis|url10=https://www.theverge.com/tldr/2018/11/22/18108195/apple-siri-iphone-donald-trump-penis-wikipedia-fail-vandalism-editing |org11=''[[USA Today]]'' |date11=22 November 2018 |author11=Blumenthal, Eli|title11=Wikipedia vandalizing causes Siri to show a lewd image when asked about Donald Trump |url11=https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/11/22/siri-glitch-shows-male-genitalia-when-asking-questions-trump/2088884002/ |org12=''[[The Independent]]'' |date12=23 November 2018 |author12=Griffin, Andrew|title12=Asking Siri for information about Donald Trump shows explicit image after Wikipedia edit|url12=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/donald-trump-siri-explicit-image-apple-wikipedia-edit-explained-a8648556.html |org13=''[[Newsweek]]'' |date13=23 November 2018 |author13=Gander, Kashmira|title13=Someone hacked Donald Trump's Wikipedia page, replaced photo with image of penis|url13=https://www.newsweek.com/someone-hacked-donald-trumps-wikipedia-page-replaced-photo-image-penis-1228571 |org14=''[[The Inquirer]]'' |date14=26 November 2018 |author14=Martin, Alan|title14=The Trump penis Wikipedia war has kicked off again|url14=https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3066986/the-trump-penis-wikipedia-war-has-kicked-off-again |org15=''[[The Verge]]'' |date15=December 3, 2018 |author15=Brandom, Russell|title15=Wikipedia engages the 'nuclear option' after Trump penis hack|url15=https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/4/18125359/wikipedia-trump-admin-account-security-hack |org16=''[[Slate (magazine)|Slate]]'' |date16=May 28, 2019 |author16=Mak, Aaron|title16=Donald Trump's Wikipedia Entry Is a War Zone|url16=https://slate.com/technology/2019/05/donald-trump-wikipedia-page.htm |org17=''[[Fast Company]]'' |date17=March 7, 2020 |author17=Pasternack, Alex |title17=How Wikipedia's volunteers became the web's best weapon against misinformation |url17=https://www.fastcompany.com/90471667/how-wikipedia-volunteers-became-the-webs-best-weapon-against-misinformation |org18=''[[Fox News]]'' |date18=May 21, 2020 |author18=Flood, Brian |title18=Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger says online encyclopedia scrapped neutrality, favors lefty politics |url18=https://www.foxnews.com/media/wikipedia-co-founder-larry-sanger-says-online-dictionary-scrapped-neutrality-favors-lefty-politics |org19=''[[Snopes]]'' |date19=November 19, 2020 |author19=Evon, Dan |title19=Does Loser.com Redirect to Trump’s Wikipedia Page? |url19=https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loser-com-trump-wikipedia-page/ |org20=''[[The Guardian]]'' |date20=October 23, 2023 |author20=Williams, Zoe |title20=Why is Elon Musk attacking Wikipedia? Because its very existence offends him |url20=https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/23/why-is-elon-musk-attacking-wikipedia-because-its-very-existence-offends-him |org21=''[[Fox News]]'' |date21=May 31, 2024 |author21=Hays, Gabriel |title21=CNN host suggests Trump conviction not mentioned prominently enough on former president's Wikipedia page |url21=https://www.foxnews.com/media/cnn-host-suggests-trump-conviction-mentioned-prominently-enough-former-presidents-wikipedia-page |org22=''[[Slate (magazine)|Slate]]'' |date22=June 4, 2024 |author22=Harrison, Stephen |title22=The Most Heated Debate on Trump’s Felony Conviction Is Happening on ... Wikipedia? |url22=https://slate.com/technology/2024/06/donald-trump-felony-wikipedia-debate.html |org23=''[[The Boston Globe]]'' |date23=October 17, 2024 |author23=Sam Wineburg and Nadav Ziv |title23=Go ahead and use Wikipedia for research |url23=https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/10/17/opinion/use-wikipedia-reliable-source/ }} {{All time pageviews|233}} {{Annual report|[[Wikipedia:2015 Top 50 Report|2015]], [[Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/2016|2016]], [[Wikipedia:2017 Top 50 Report|2017]], [[Wikipedia:2018 Top 50 Report|2018]], [[Wikipedia:2019 Top 50 Report|2019]], [[Wikipedia:2020 Top 50 Report|2020]], [[Wikipedia:2021 Top 50 Report|2021]], and [[Wikipedia:2023 Top 50 Report|2023]]}} {{Top 25 report|Jun 14 2015|Jun 28 2015|Jul 19 2015|until|Sep 27 2015|Dec 6 2015|Dec 13 2015|Jan 3 2016|until|Jan 17 2016|until|Jun 12 2016|Jul 3 2016|until|Jul 31 2016|Aug 21 2016|until|Dec 18 2016|Jan 1 2017|until|Apr 2 2017|Apr 23 2017|May 14 2017|until|May 28 2017|Jun 11 2017|Jun 25 2017|Oct 8 2017|Oct 22 2017|Nov 26 2017|Jan 14 2018|Jun 10 2018|Sep 30 2018|Oct 28 2018|until|Nov 25 2018|Dec 9 2018|Sep 22 2019|Dec 15 2019|Jan 5 2020|Feb 23 2020|Mar 1 2020|Apr 12 2020|May 31 2020|until|Jun 28 2020|Aug 9 2020|until|Aug 23 2020|Sep 27 2020|until|Dec 13 2020|Jan 3 2021|until|Jan 31 2021|Jul 10 2022|Jun 11 2023|May 26 2024|Jun 23 2024|Jul 14 2024|Jul 21 2024|Oct 20 2024|until|Nov 10 2024}} {{Annual readership|scale=log}} &lt;!-- end page history banner bundle --&gt; }} {{Skip to talk}} {{Skip to bottom}} {{Banner holder |collapsed=yes |1= {{Section sizes}} }} {{User:MiszaBot/config |algo = old(14d) |archive = Talk:Donald Trump/Archive %(counter)d |counter = 177 |maxarchivesize = 250K |archiveheader = {{aan}} |minthreadstoarchive = 1 |minthreadsleft = 2 }} __TOC__ == Current consensus == &lt;!-- Must be on this page, not the subpage, to support mobile users --&gt; {{/Current consensus}} == Racially charged == &lt;!-- START PIN --&gt;{{Pin message|}}&lt;!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 10:51, 10 November 2034 (UTC) --&gt;{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|2046768684}}&lt;!-- END PIN --&gt; Hello all, I see Consensus #30, based particularly on [[Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_92#Wording_for_sentence_in_lead_on_racial_stance|this Request for Comment]] says: &quot;The lead includes: &quot;Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist.&quot;&quot; I can also see that this is the only mention of &quot;racially charged&quot; in the article. Would editors here support removal of &quot;racially charged&quot; until such text is supported in the body? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tq|Would editors here support removal of &quot;racially charged&quot; until such text is supported in the body?}} Not this one, per process. We're not going to amend #30 until the body is fixed, then reverse the amendment. &quot;Racially charged&quot; appears to have enough RS support, so just find a way to work it into the body. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::&lt;s&gt;What does &quot;reverse the amendment&quot; mean? Go back to Consensus 24? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; I understand. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::I see the grammatical ambiguity. :) &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::This seems backwards. Lead follows body. We shouldn't treat the consensus list as sacrosanct, it's merely there to keep track of RfCs. If the article has moved on, I'd support a new RfC to challenge the previous one. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 07:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Riposte97}} I think an RfC should be avoided if it can be. Do you think you could [[WP:FIXIT]]? I'll have a go as well in a bit. If we don't have luck we can look at overturning Consensus #30. :::Given it's an [[WP:EXCEPTIONAL]] claim, high-quality sources will be needed. I wouldn't accept journalists being arbitrators of whether his comments were &quot;racially charged&quot;, political scientists will have written on it and we shouldn't accept inferior sourcing. This is the standard that was applied for &quot;cult of personality&quot;. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 07:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Your reasoning seems consistent with [[WP:NEWSORG]]. A departure, probably more impactful (disruptive?) than you realize, but maybe ultimately good for the article. No strong opinion provided we adhere to the established consensus process. If that means revisiting #30, I suppose you pass the &quot;significant new argument(s)&quot; test. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]], apologies that I've not had the time to properly devote to this. I'll see what I can add to your page in the coming days. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :Yep definitely. [[Special:Contributions/92.30.105.204|92.30.105.204]] ([[User talk:92.30.105.204|talk]]) 19:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC) I have created a page [[User:Rollinginhisgrave/Trump racism descriptor]] as a space for research on this article. I intended to use academic sources in [[Racial views of Donald Trump]] as the basis to follow summary style, but extremely disappointingly, only six of the almost 500 sources are academic. This is collaborative so please help! If this can be pinned to the top of this page for a short while it would be valuable. Remember, for [[WP:WEIGHT]], we are not merely looking for multiple sources describing him or his comments/actions as racist/racially charged, but for the weighted response of high-quality academic sources to these questions. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 10:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|SusanLesch}} Pinging you in case this effort is of interest. Been working mostly on collating books right now as journals are daunting for finding discussion of general scholarly consensus. If you find other useful texts along the way providing a scholarly retrospective assessment on aspects, I'm currently dropping them in [[User:Rollinginhisgrave/sandbox_2]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC) ::Will do. Sorry if I'm slow today with journals but I will catch up. On this topic per [[MOS:LEADNO]], {{tq| not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text}}, however this statement absolutely should be cited per [[MOS:CITELEAD]]. Seems like a good place for a perfectly cited footnote. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:42, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :::Thanks :) Yes the key issue is definitely it being uncited. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:48, 15 November 2024 (UTC) == Tracking lead size == Word counts by paragraph and total. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1255636208 05 Nov 2024] &amp;mdash; '''614''' = 29 + 101 + 106 + 156 + 101 + 121 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1257045174 12 Nov 2024] &amp;mdash; '''657''' = 46 + 101 + 116 + 175 + 176 + 43 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1258463601 19 Nov 2024] &amp;mdash; '''418''' = 62 + 76 + 153 + 127 == Religion in Donald Trump's life == Hi. I added 57 words to the thin content of the Religion section. Since these words were reverted with concern about length and mentions elsewhere in article, please discuss the added content here and the quality of the [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|Reliable sources]] involved: # Added that his family's church was &quot;led by Norman Vincent Peale.&quot; -- This point is made by Kelsey Dallas, an award-winning religion journalist (Deseret News), in her article, &quot;What has Donald Trump said about religion?&quot; (7-18-24) and elaborated by the NYT article &quot;Overlooked Influences on Donald Trump: A Famous Minister and His Church&quot; (9-5-16) -- '''5 words''' # &quot;During his childhood, he also went to the [[First Presbyterian Church (Brooklyn)|First Presbyterian Church]] in Brooklyn and donated to it in 2012.&quot; -- This church affiliation is completely missing from the article. It is supported by the Kelsey Dallas piece and this article in ''The Atlantic'': Green, Emma (July 24, 2016). &quot;Donald Trump Grew Up at a Church That's Now Full of Immigrants&quot; -- '''19 words''' # Added that his new identification as a non-denominational Christian is &quot;an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president.&quot; Source: Admin, C. (October 27, 2020). &quot;Trump Becomes the First President Since Eisenhower to Change Faiths in Office&quot;. ''Christianity Today''. More can be said about this salient shift, of course, but here adding only -- '''10 words''' # &quot;Trump appeals to Christian nationalists, according to a 2022 study&quot; -- This key point is missing from the article. There are numerous sources that discuss his relationship to Christian nationalism, please [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22trump%22+%22christian+nationalism%22&amp;client=firefox-b-1-d&amp;sca_esv=bdd267d42e3b57fe&amp;sca_upv=1&amp;ei=LwP7ZqLnCY2gwN4P07CoqQs&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjiutmquuuIAxUNENAFHVMYKrUQ4dUDCA8&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22trump%22+%22christian+nationalism%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHyJ0cnVtcCIgImNocmlzdGlhbiBuYXRpb25hbGlzbSJI4CJQiQNYoBpwAXgAkAEAmAF-oAHXDKoBBDEyLjW4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgWgAtADwgIIEAAYgAQYxwPCAgUQABiABMICDRAAGIAEGEMYxwMYigWYAwCIBgGSBwM0LjGgB_oN&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp%7Csearch Google News] to confirm. Here I suggest an academic paper by leading scholars: Perry, Samuel L.; Whitehead, Andrew L.; Grubbs, Joshua B. (June 2022). &quot;The Devil That You Know: Christian Nationalism and Intent to Change One's Voting Behavior For or Against Trump in 2020&quot;. Politics and Religion. 15 (2): 229–246. doi:10.1017/S175504832100002X. p.243 -- '''10 words''' # &quot;and in March 2024 he began to sell copies of a Christian Bible.&quot; -- Not elsewhere in the article. Source: Willingham, A. J. (March 28, 2024). &quot;Why some Christians are angry about Trump's 'God Bless the USA' Bible&quot;. CNN. -- '''13 words''' Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life, especially because the personal is political for his relationship with Christian constituencies. In the current version, the word &quot;Christian&quot; only appears once in the article. I believe these 5 changes are written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|Neutral point of view]], clearly [[Wikipedia:Verified|Verified]], and involve due [[Wikipedia:WEIGHT|Weight]] to a significant aspect of the subject's life. @[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]], thanks in advance for comments. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 20:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC) :There is an argument for 2, 4, and 5 to be added. 1 and 3 are relatively trivial IMO. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 20:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC) ::I believe 1 is not trivial. The &quot;power of positive thinking&quot; is at the heart of Trump's philosophy. I believe it used to be in the article, but has been edited out at some point.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 00:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :1, 2, 3 are silly trivia. Ambivalent on the rest. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 01:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :4 seems more relevant. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 01:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :There is too much religion material in the article. There should be something about his pandering to fundamentalist Christians , his strange messages to the Jews, and his attempts to monetize and brand himself with the Bible. Well, actually we do have the photo-op.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 01:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC) ::I believe the Bible is included in an article on Trump products.[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 02:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC) ::You can now get the “The Day God Intervened” edition ({{tq|custom embossed to in remembrance of the day that God intervened during President Donald J. Trump`s assassination attempt}} — English [https://godblesstheusabible.com/ isn't the website's forte]) of &quot;the only Bible endorsed by&quot; Trump, using his &quot;name, likeness and image&quot; under a license agreement with one of Trump's organizations, CIC Ventures LLC; $59.99, or $1,000 with {{tq|President Donald J. Trump's Hand-Signed Signature}}. It's not a Trump-branded product, so it's mentioned in the last paragraph of [[The Trump Organization#Other ventures and investments]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :::: {{ping|SPECIFICO}} Hi there. Based on your suggestion more content about Christians, messages to Jews, etc., it looks like a typo and that you meant to write, &quot;There is ''not'' too much religion...&quot; -- is that right? [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 19:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I meant there's too much insignificant content about church etc and not enough about his use of religion in efforts to pander to various groups.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 02:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]] Thank you for the link to the godblesstheusabible website ... my brain just exploded. &lt;span style=&quot;border-radius:9em;background:#88ff00&quot;&gt;[[User:Bobsd|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• Bobsd •&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt;([[User talk:Bobsd|talk]]) 01:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1225220728&amp;oldid=1225196949 This edit] moved Trump’s Sunday school confirmation from [[Donald Trump#Religion|Religion]] to [[Donald Trump#Early life|Early Life]], and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1225221117&amp;oldid=1225220728 this edit] removed Peale. {{tq|Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life}} — he was and is unable to name a favorite or cite a single verse or passage from the Bible. I just moved Sunday school back into the section. I assume Sunday school was mentioned only because of contradictory Trump claims about his religion/religiosity. I can't think of any other bio mentioning it as part of early life and education, not even [[Mike Pence]]'s. Was tempted to remove it but didn't because of this discussion. :*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1225221117&amp;oldid=1225220728 this edit] in May removed Peale. The Trumps started attending Marble Collegiate Church because of Peale's fame and feel-good-about-being-rich sermons. Seems trivial to me. :*Donation to Brooklyn church: It was apparently only reported by one source, [https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/07/trumps-sunday-school/492653/ The Atlantic], at the time which also reported that {{tq|As far as Patrick O’Connor, the pastor, knows, the Republican presidential nominee has never tried to visit the church where he grew up—or, at least, not in several decades.}} Who knows why he sent a check in 2012, and was it a personal check or a Trump Foundation check? :*Christian nationalism. There's one sentence in [[Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Campaign events]]: {{tq|The Associated Press noted that &quot;Trump's rallies take on the symbols, rhetoric and agenda of Christian nationalism.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last=Peter|first=Smith|date=May 18, 2024|title=Jesus is their savior, Trump is their candidate. Ex-president's backers say he shares faith, values|url=https://apnews.com/article/trump-christian-evangelicals-conservatives-2024-election-43f25118c133170c77786daf316821c3|access-date=June 2, 2024|work=[[Associated Press]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} It's part of his rhetoric to please a subset of his supporters, so it would belong in [[Donald Trump#2024 presidential campaign]]. :*&quot;an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president&quot; — trivial statistic. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC) ::It seems like Peale was an important influence on the Donald’s life, so I would strongly urge the reinstatement of that text. [[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 17:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :::Hi. @[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]], Thanks for your collaborative comments and for explaining your take to each of these points, which I appreciate, plus you looked up past edits. You also moved the Sunday school thing, even though you feel that it's unimportant. Your point (higher up) about the bible is clear and well-explained, so I get that (#5). If the donation is only one RS, then I can see leaving out of this article, though it may belong in a sub-article (#2). :::* On Christian nationalism (#4), or Christian right / conservatism -- you suggest a different section, that's very helpful. There are numerous RS sources on his relationship to Christian movements, e.g., [[Trumpism]] article long section. It is deeper and earlier than the current campaign, so it might go under earlier under political career. But I'm puzzled because this article doesn't mention the political movement-building he has done, e.g., MAGA, Trumpism. and Christian conservatism. What's your sense of that? (FWIW, my #3 is related to all this, but less important than showing readers his evangelical coalition-building.) :::* On Norman Vincent Peale -- Ok, it might sound trivial at first glance. But there are many sources that report, analyze, and opine about the relevance of Peale to Trump. Is it helpful if I give some links, or would that be off-putting here? [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/10/how-self-help-author-norman-vincent-peale-influenced-donald-trump.html CNBC 2020],[https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/nyregion/donald-trump-marble-collegiate-church-norman-vincent-peale.html NYT] 2016, [https://www.crosswalk.com/headlines/contributors/scott-slayton/things-christians-should-know-about-the-faith-of-donald-trump.html a Christian POV], [https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/10/donald-trump-2016-norman-vincent-peale-213220/ biographer in Politico], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/how-trump-got-religion--and-why-his-legendary-ministers-son-now-rejects-him/2016/01/21/37bae16e-bb02-11e5-829c-26ffb874a18d_story.html WaPo] 2016, [https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/surge-piety-norman-vincent-peale/ evangelical POV], [https://www.deseret.com/indepth/2020/10/8/21506597/norman-vincent-peale-donald-trump-covid-glenn-beck-positive-thinking-stephen-covey-mary-trump/ linking to his COVID approach] (one of several), [https://www.firstthings.com/article/2016/08/donald-trump-man-of-faith First Things conservative POV], and more. :::Thanks for your consideration. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 19:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC) ::::A consensus appears to be forming for adding Trump's support of Christian nationality somewhere in the article. Peale influence: {{tq|in an interview [Trump] [https://web.archive.org/web/20160906211340/https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/nyregion/donald-trump-marble-collegiate-church-norman-vincent-peale.html described Dr. Peale] as “a great preacher and a great public speaker” but said nothing about any religious beliefs he had imparted.}} (New York Times) {{tq|[https://web.archive.org/web/20160123161744/https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/how-trump-got-religion--and-why-his-legendary-ministers-son-now-rejects-him/2016/01/21/37bae16e-bb02-11e5-829c-26ffb874a18d_story.html Trump, in a telephone interview], ... said he was a young man when he first heard Norman Vincent Peale preach. “He would give the best sermons of anyone; he was an amazing public speaker,” Trump said. “He could speak for 90 minutes and people were upset when it was over.” Trump said he was drawn to stories the minister told in the pulpit about successful business executives “overcoming difficulties.” “I found that very interesting,” the billionaire said, adding that he and Peale became friends. “He thought I was his greatest student of all time.”}} (Washington Post) Sounds more transactional than faith-based. Also, are there any witnesses for Trump attending church every Sunday for 50 years? He has been known to lie ... [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::::'''Peale''' was a far-right Christian nationalist charlatan and a bigot whose model is reflected in much of Trump's present-day rhetoric. [[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 02:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I think his relationship with Peale was transactional, but that's no reason not to include it![[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 02:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::No, Peale was a [https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+peale hero and role model] - like Roy Cohn, Putin, and Lechter. These icons impregnated the imagination of what would become today's Trump-2024.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 12:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::Based on responses, I will aim to write something brief in the article about Trump's work with Christian conservatives and (arguable) support for Christian nationalism. Might be next week. It's fine, of course, if somebody else writes this into the article, please let me know via ping. :::::::On Peale, it seems that he deserves at least limited mention as an inspiration (or other term) for Trump. I think this is easiest to put into Religion section, since Trump encountered hiim through church, but other suggested placements are welcome. Thanks for all your responses and finding further sources. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 02:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Hi @[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]], in my comment above (Oct 9), I expressed what I took to be a suitable handling for Peale. While some users assumed Peale was trivial, I cited 8 different sources, including articles devoted to Peale's influence on Trump. Your comment mentioned NYT and WaPo. Specifico and Jack Upland affirmed the relevance of Peale. Please clarify your concerns, e.g., is Peale's influence not discussed by credible sources, should Peale's influenced be mentioned elsewhere in the article? Something else? Thanks. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 14:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::There's no consensus to add Peale. Only eight people participated in this discussion. Four opposed mentioning Peale, and one acquiesced to the opposed faction. Peale's [[Norman Vincent Peale#Influence|page mentions]] Donald Trump, and [[Fred Trump#Personal life|Fred Trump's]] page mentions Peale's influence on Fred. Fred Trump was raised Lutheran, his children were raised in his wife's Presbyterian beliefs, became a member of the Norman Vincent Peale church of &quot;positive thinking&quot;. Trump, who went back to living with his parents after he finished college, went along but seems to have come away with &quot;assume the worst&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Factoid #2 needs to be removed and I'll acquiesce to those above who say that #1 and #3 should go. In general, it's more important how Trump is perceived by the religious right than trivialities about the few times he actually attended church. &lt;sub style=&quot;border:1px solid #FFCC00;&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Purplebackpack89|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FFCC00;background:#800080;&quot;&gt;pbp&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 20:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Based on discussion above, I'm '''adding a Christian nationalism sentence''' to a subsection on Trump's campaign rhetoric: &quot;Without being conventionally religious, Trump used Christian nationalist rhetoric that portrayed Christians under siege in America and that promised its renewal as a Christian nation.&quot; This is based on the most cited authors on Christian nationalism in contemporary American politics (this article has been cited 500+ times): Whitehead, Andrew L., Samuel L. Perry, and Joseph O. Baker. &quot;Make America Christian again: Christian nationalism and voting for Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential election.&quot; Sociology of religion 79, no. 2 (2018): 147-171. esp pages 150-153. It'd be good to have at least one sentence on his coalition building with evangelical / conservative Christians. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 17:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :: In line with the above discussion, I also added a '''sentence on Norman Vincent Peale''' in the &quot;Religion&quot; subsection. There are various sources, noted above, so I chose the liberal NY Times and the conservative First Things, which both give a pretty reasonable account of how Trump was influenced by Peale. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 18:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253113754&amp;oldid=1252993272 reverted] the addition of Peale since there is no consensus for it, and I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253116482&amp;oldid=1253113754 replaced] the material you added with the material we discussed here. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} I don't care to take on uninvolved closure here, but the last comment of any substance was on 30 October. What do the participants think? Close as resolved or no? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :I've removed the closure. More discussion needed. Elaborating shortly. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 19:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :Justifications for inclusion here are very thin. Relative importance of facts to the topic Trump and religion is assessed by editors applying editorial judgement as to whether facts are trivial, which is one of the weakest ways of ensuring NPOV. The first article linked makes an effort to contextualize facts in how important they are to Trump's religion overall, but it is a weak source, given &quot;there is no consensus on whether the Deseret News is independent of the LDS Church.&quot; Better sources exist to assess what facts are significant re Trump and religion, the key one being [https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-40758-1] &lt;ins&gt;which &quot;Provides a scholarly retrospective on the presidential legacies of... Trump [re; religion]&lt;/ins&gt;.[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 19:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::Useful summary of Trump's relationship with religion in the context of his biography and politics (page 284) &quot;Yet a closer look revealed that Christianity, and to a lesser extent Judaism, played a significant and complex role in Trump’s life. For several decades, the Trump family selected the Fifth Avenue church, Marble Collegiate, as a spiritual home. Marble’s pastor, Methodist minister Norman Vincent Peale, embodied an unorthodox, psychology-based Christian preaching, pro-business message, and connections to Republican Party politicians. After Donald Trump’s parents died, he frequently consulted a nondenominational, televangelist pastor Paula White. Meanwhile, Trump’s daughter Ivanka converted to Judaism and married the Orthodox Jew real estate developer Jared Kushner in 2009.&quot; [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258682804&amp;oldid=1258675545 Rewrote using above]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Rollinginhisgrave}} you have not established consensus for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1258693912 this restoration]; please self-revert. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 02:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Hi {{u|Nikkimaria}}, happy to revert, before I do could you clarify what you mean by &quot;establish consensus for this restoration&quot;? I understand what constitutes a revert is contentious, but I also believe I was following [[WP:BRD|bold, revert, discuss]]. This is as you deleted the discussion on religion, which has been in the article for a long time, even if not in this form, and I reverted it. If you were reverting my change in the content of the religion section, you would restore the previous content. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I reverted your addition of new religion-related content, and request that you get consensus for it before restoring. Is what you posted above a direct quote from the source? If so, your proposal also seems like [[WP:CLOP|very close paraphrasing]], except for the vaguer last sentence. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 02:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::{{u|Nikkimaria}} I've [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258699797&amp;oldid=1258693912 restored] the text before my edit. My edit was not an addition but a replacement. The above is a direct quote and I spent a fair bit of time trying to reword but apparently did so poorly. Summaries of summaries are always difficult, I'll have another go. :::::::You initially described the content as &quot;overdetail&quot;, could you elaborate why you think so in light of the quote I provided? &quot;Christianity, and to a lesser extent Judaism, played a significant and complex role in Trump’s life&quot; (Carty &amp; Rozell, 2023) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:13, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Not everything that can be sourced warrants inclusion, and this particular material doesn't provide a lot of concrete value - what does it mean to &quot;play a significant role&quot;? Having a Jewish family member doesn't mean that Judaism as a religion influences your views. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::The chapter the text is summarising elaborates what it means to play a significant role. I'll come back to this in an hour or so when I have source access and expand. I'm unsure the article text will be able to convey this significance beyond listing significant facts without being very long, it may be eligible for a split into a standalone article on Trump's relationship with religion. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Donald Trump has no significant relationship with religion, outside of occasionally using an upside-down bible as a political prop. No place in this article, and the idea of a standalone article is absurd. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 04:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::{{u|Zaathras}}, I will be unavailable to discuss this for the next hour. For when I am available, would you be able to provide reliable sources of equivalent quality attesting that {{tq|Trump has no significant relationship with religion}}? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}}A few hours later, here nonetheless. *Peale: Attended by whole family. Entrepreneurial approach to Christianity appealed to Trump and his dad. Peale presided his marriage to Ivana. Relationship expanded in 80s, such as using Peale as a character reference when entering Atlanta casino industry. Endorsed in Peale's autobiography. Business ethic in 80s reflected a secular interpretation of Peale's Christianity. Relationship to Marbles Church heavily emphasized during Marla scandal. Peale's successor officiated wedding to Marla. *White: Frequently consulted White after parents death after reaching out to her in 2001, serving as a personal pastor. With Melania, stood by White during scandals (misuse of funds, second divorce, bankruptcy of church. *Judaism: Ivanka-Kushner marriage notable in and of itself. Kushner's family contacts got Trump a speech at AIPAC, promoting Israel's interests. Coming up to 2016, Trump courted Jewish and Evangelical groups. Trump made inroads with the Jewish vote, who had traditionally been Democratic voters. Enrolled conservative Jews to leadership positions. Kushner is attributed as responsible for changing platform to Israel to rejecting Palestinian state promotion. Kushner's family had a long-term relationship to Netanyahu (he stayed in Jared's bedroom when Jared was a teenager?) so on. '''Roughly rewritten proposal, clarifying &quot;play a significant role&quot;''': For decades, Trump and his family attended the [[Marble Collegiate Church]], maintaining a personal relationship with [[Protestant]] preacher [[Norman Vincent Peale]]. Peale, who emphasized a pro-business, psychology-based ministry, is credited with influencing Trump's business ethic that emphasized &quot;success&quot; during the 1980s. Following his parent's deaths, the non-denominational televangelist [[Paula White]] served as Trump's personal pastor, being frequently consulted and sometimes defended by Trump. After his daughter Ivanka married Jewish businessman [[Jared Kushner]] in 2009, Trump successfully courted the Democratic Jewish vote, employing the help of Kushner and his family to write policy and reach Israeli organizations and Jewish voters. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :This still has a lot of detail that isn't needed, and I don't think Israeli policy belongs in a personal-life section - you could propose incorporating that particular piece in a rewrite of the existing Israel section. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:30, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::What information do you think can be cut while still establishing the significance in-text of these core facts (Peale, White, Kushner)? A rewrite may be the best to express this. I do think your suggestion to move some to the Israel section is a good idea: it would help the article be cohesive rather than the current siloing approach and the significance would still be established. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::Based on the discussion above there does not seem to be consensus to include Peale at this point. &quot;Following his parents' death, televangelist [[Paula White]] became Trump's personal pastor&quot; covers White. I don't think anything regarding Kushner belongs in this context, though as mentioned might elsewhere. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 02:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've challenged that consensus by introducing a source which supersedes those previously discussed. I agree with you that given &lt;del&gt;Kushner&lt;/del&gt;&lt;ins&gt;his relationship with Judaism&lt;/ins&gt; is largely significant relating to politics, moving it there would be the best place. However, I don't think as the article is written it fits in anywhere there at the moment, I'll work on rewriting it over the next few weeks. Until then, this is the best, albeit imperfect place. I can expand if this doesn't make sense. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Nikkimaria, I favor mention of Peale (noted in a different thread, not the above discussion). Rollinginhisgrave, we have a Harv warning error because Carty &amp; Rozell is unused (I'd remove it but wonder if it will be back soon). [[:Category:Harv_and_Sfn_template_errors#Displaying_error_messages|Trappist the Monk's script]] will show these errors. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{u|SusanLesch}} I did remove it, unsure how it's returned. I have got Trappist the Monk's excellent script, we can remove for now, not too much effort to add it back in. I may need to make a formal proposal below of the text change, although I hope Nikkimaria can weed out any excessive text before that. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 16:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Correction, I might be off by a generation, Nikkimaria. I am reading that [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/10/how-self-help-author-norman-vincent-peale-influenced-donald-trump.html Mary Trump says] Peale influenced Fred Trump (Donald's dad) the most. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 21:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::In which case his article would be the better place for Peale. As to {{tq|this is the best, albeit imperfect place}} - no, it can wait for a rewrite of a different section. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:44, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Agree and he's already there. I found [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Trump_Revealed/x2jUDQAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;bsq=%22norman%20vincent%20peale%22 one paragraph on p. 81] in Kranish &amp; Fisher (2016) that says he was important, a mentor to Donald, who taught him to think of positive outcomes, but Peale wasn't really mentioned again. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:00, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::*{{tq|his article would be the better place for Peale}} I am unsure the best way to respond to this. Could you expand on your reasoning here, preferably with reference to policies and guidelines? ::::::::*{{tq|no, it can wait for a rewrite of a different section}} The only relevant carveout for excluding DUE content I can think of here is [[MOS:TRIVIA]], which notes {{tq|Otherwise valid content should ultimately be removed if there isn't a good place for it}}. There is a good place for it here, a discussion on his relationship with religion. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 10:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::I don't agree that that ''is'' a good place for it, because what you're proposing is much more relevant to his political career than his ''personal'' religious views. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 00:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Request for consensus: Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == OK. Here's my proposal: that a section be added that reports the ''public discussion of concerns'' about his health, which are now a major part of public discourse. It should obviously not ''itself'' speculate on Trump's mental fitness, only report on the comments of [[WP:RS]] according to the [[WP:NPOV]] guidelines. This would not violate [[WP:MEDRS]], because it would not express an opinion on his mental state, only report on the opinions of others. Opinions, please? &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 11:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :A consensus/new consensus can be established without an RfC. You've already started the discussion on this page. Opening an RfC at this point would be improper, IMO. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 11:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :If you insist on going that route, this is the procedure: [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 11:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC) * Just to start off: '''support''' as proposer, per comments above. &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 11:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Anome, I suggest you notify the talk page of the article from which your proposed content originated. That page is 6 years old, so the editors there are likely knowledgeable.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 20:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Best 'not' to hand out such a notification at another talkpage, Anome. Less that be construed as [[WP:CANVASS|canvassing]] for support. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''', it is media speculation, not a clinical diagnosis, and this is a BLP. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''yes''' it is time, esp after the 39 minute dance this week the topic has received quite a bit of coverage. whether it is a 'diagnosis' or not is not an issue, a encyclopedia is not drawing a medically-based conclusion it is just reflecting the preponderance of the sources. [[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] ([[User talk:ValarianB|talk]]) 13:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *''' No''' or at best, very limited yes. I know we don't cite other wiki pages. But just for comparison, the [[Joe Biden]] main page only gives it about a vague sentence or two, and that's for a figure who's cognitive decline has been much more prominent and widely discussed by RS. Also, that section is titled much more neutrally simply as &quot;Age and health.&quot; So overall, this is a &quot;no&quot; unless ''significantly'' scaled back. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 13:50, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' It looks like they are not sincere age and health concerns but political attacks with no consensus of medical professionals. In the last stages of an election campaign, I think it's just part of an expected full court press. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 14:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:That's a straw man. The topic is concerns, which have been found NOTABLE on the abundantly sourced wiki page from which the recent content and deletion originated. If it were a medical diagnosis, the lead of this page would simply state &quot;Donald Trump is the demented former POTUS and the demented candidate for 2024.&quot; But it isn't a diagnosis and nobody's suggested it is. There should not be a formal poll of any sort here. It's already under discussion and {{ping|GoodDay}} has provided no policy or content-based rationale not to include this summary of a relevant article, similar to many others on this page. Lacking any such rationale, the removal appears meddlesome and destructive.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 15:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :::Are you suggesting editors who oppose the addition, are disruptive? [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' - as he hasn't been diagnosed with having any such medical issues. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' - We are not going to use non-MEDRS soucres to speculated on someone's mental or physical health. We wouldn't do it with Joe or anyone else. It's also laughable un-encyclopedic. Also it should probably be an RFC to overturn two RFCs and a bunch of previous discussions that all found the same thing. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 14:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1232653181&amp;oldid=1232634293#2024_presidential_campaign]. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::Ugh, well we shouldn't. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 16:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::I don't see a way to &quot;unring&quot; that bell. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Not to point fingers or drag this out even further (see below), but &lt;s&gt;this&lt;/s&gt; (correction, see comment by Just10A above) seems to be where comparisons to the Biden article actually started. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC) * '''Yes''' See [[Joe Biden#2024 presidential campaign]]. &quot;After the debate raised questions about his health and age, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets&quot;. I understand BLP's require extra care, but &quot;concern&quot; doesn't seem to be [[MOS:WEASEL| weasely]] enough, as long as it's attributed in a verifiable context outside of VOICE. If the same rules that apply to Biden also apply to Trump, &quot;Refuses to release medical records&quot; with &quot;attributed concerns&quot; is where the bar currently sits. See &quot;More than 230 doctors and health care providers, most of whom are backing Vice President Kamala Harris, call on Trump to release medical records&quot; [https://abcnews.go.com/Health/trump-harris-medical-records-after-vp-releases-doctors/story?id=114822811 ABC] [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/03/health/trump-health-records.html NYT], [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-harris-medical-records-doctors-b2629175.html Independent], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-health-records-doctors-for-harris/ CBS]. Also see [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:And Biden did step down, is there any indication of similar pressure on Trump from within the GOP? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::It's not a qualifier as far as I know. Was the &quot;raised questions about Biden's health&quot; only allowed to be added AFTER he stepped down? Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::Well I recall making the same arguments there as here, and it all changed when it actually had an impact on the election. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::Let's look at the tape. {{tq|Looks like concerns about Biden's health were added on the 4th of July}} &quot;After the debate raised questions about his health, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets&quot;[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1232653181&amp;oldid=1232634293#2024_presidential_campaign] and {{tq|Biden didn't resign until July 21st.}} Did I miss something? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::NO, but I did, as I had opposed that in the past, and did not see the addition. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::I can see wanting to err on the side of caution, but the cat is out of the bag and fairness is the name of the game, and other such idioms... [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 16:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::So we could say then &quot;After a series of rallies raised questions about his health, Trump faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Republicana and the editorial boards of several major news outlets&quot;, would this be supported by RS? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::AFAIK There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar. Only that it must be based on what the sources say. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::1.) Do not substantively edit your comments after editors have already replied to them without indicating it. That is against [[WP:REDACT|guidelines]]. *:::::::::2.) I don't know how you can argue {{tq|&quot;There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar&quot;}} when ''just'' above that you argued {{tq| &quot;Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe&quot;}} and {{tq|&quot;fairness is the name of the game.&quot;}} *:::::::::I agree that policy doesn't mandate they match, but you gotta pick a side. You can't argue &quot;Policy says they don't need to be similar&quot; and then simultaneously say &quot;They gotta similar or else it's unfair.&quot; [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 20:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::@[[User:Just10A|Just10A]] If I acted improperly I apologize, as it wasn't my intent to mislead anyone, hence the clarification. I wasn't aware adding afaik is considered a substantive change. *::::::::::I believe my yes vote implies that I have picked a side. TMK I'm allowed to make observations and express views on the appearance of possible inconsistencies in the application of policy in good faith. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::::No problem. I was referring to you adding the ABC source in your earlier comment though just to be clear. I agree that adding AFAIK is more minor. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 22:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::::Oh, then I was way off on what I thought you were referring to. I was about to start adding TMK and AFAIK to all of my sentences. I meant to add the ABC source in my original edit, but I goofed. Truly sorry if that screwed something up, I've had similar experiences so I empathize. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::@[[User:Just10A|Just10A]] I would briefly add that, TMK the application of policy and the substance of the context being proposed do not represent two conflicting interpretations of the same policies AFAIK. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::True, but it also means they are not the same situation, which was my point, that they are not analogous. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *{{ec}} I'd like to see someone confirm what sort of {{em|secondary}} coverage is here, but [[WP:MEDRS]] is irrelevant here because biographical information is {{strong|not biomedical information}}: we should almost never include things like how a disease works or how it is diagnosed (except insofar to mention the subject {{em|isn't}}, when that's the case) on a biographical article in the first place. That is not to say we should not ask for the absolute best quality sources, but MEDRS is an inappropriate guideline here. Also, discussion on this topic will also need to consider how and where primary sources are used on the subarticle. Due weight concerns don't go away simply because the content happens to be on another article, and not mentioning something we have an entire subarticle on even once in the main article is close to essentially {{em|forcing}} the subarticle to be a POV fork, an outcome I'd expect neither those supporting nor opposing inclusion should want. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 22:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC) ::I also don't see how [[WP:MEDRS]] (identifying reliable third-party published secondary sources accurately reflecting current knowledge on [[WP:BMI|biomedical information]] (information relating to or could reasonably be perceived as relating to human health)) applies. If a majority of reliable sources describes the candidate's speech as increasingly incoherent and his [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/10/14/trump-music-sways-town-hall/ behavior as increasingly bizarre], it's not a medical diagnosis. Consensus 39: {{tq|This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office.}} [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC) :No. This is still a BLP. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 22:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Comment''' For anyone interested in additional details about &quot;[[Age and health concerns about Joe Biden]]&quot; being added to the LEAD of [[Joe Biden]]'s BLP, they appeared about nine days before he bowed out of the 2024 presidential race. It made it onto the LEAD on July 12, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1234038899]. On the 18th a CFN tag was added [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235217497&amp;oldid=1235161604], then removed [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235238577&amp;oldid=1235228593], then re-added and removed again on the 19th [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1235500273], back on the 20th [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235582523&amp;oldid=1235536174], removed same day [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235583325&amp;oldid=1235582523], then again re-added by {{U|FMSky}} on the 20th [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1235637630], then removed again same day [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235644630&amp;oldid=1235637630], re-added same day [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235725309&amp;oldid=1235695525], and finally within the next 8-24 hours he dropped out [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235877129&amp;oldid=1235725309]. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 02:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ::Let me clarify 2 more things then I'm outta here. First, I goofed again when I pinged FMSky, total brain fart that might be perceived as intentional CANVAS or sabotage, I'm just tired from editing all day and got distracted putting diffs together. It's no excuse it's just being honest, you can check my contribs. I doubt they would agree with my vote anyway. Second, I'm not saying this is a good reason to do the same thing here, I just think it's relevant somehow. Sorry if I screwed up, it wont happen again (here at least). Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 02:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Include'''. In the last 5-14 days since Harris released her &quot;excellent health&quot; report, there has been renewed coverage in RS about Trump's refusal to release his medical records[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/03/health/trump-health-records.html]&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=2024-10-12 |title=Harris releases a health report, shifting the focus to Trump's age and health concerns |url=https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/harris-releases-a-health-report-shifting-the-focus-to-trumps-age-and-health-concerns/articleshow/114175162.cms?from=mdr |access-date=2024-10-17 |work=The Economic Times |issn=0013-0389}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=News |first=A. B. C. |title=Trump would be the oldest person to become president. He's not sharing health details |url=https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/trump-oldest-person-become-president-sharing-health-details-114859051 |access-date=2024-10-17 |website=ABC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;[https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/despite-old-age-donald-trump-refuses-to-share-health-details-in-public-124101601405_1.html][https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/06/us/politics/trump-speeches-age-cognitive-decline.html] and the recent town hall that was even beyond the usual performance standard.[https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/despite-old-age-donald-trump-refuses-to-share-health-details-in-public-124101601405_1.html] Even after Biden it was mentioned [https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2024/07/12/voters-worried-biden-trump-age/74367988007/][https://pro.morningconsult.com/analysis/donald-trump-age-concerns-august-2024][https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/22/trump-age-health/][https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/07/24/trump-age-presidential-candidate-biden-us-election/] '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''&lt;span style=&quot;border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} :*'''Yes''', there is polling and Trump hasn't disclosed his medical records. :[[User:JohnAdams1800|JohnAdams1800]] ([[User talk:JohnAdams1800|talk]]) 02:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Yes'''. People say that it should not be included because there is no MEDRS-level source that lists Trump's health. However, this did not stop concerns about Biden's health being added to the Joe Biden page, nor did it stop the creation of the [[Age and health concerns about Joe Biden]] Wikipedia page. There is also an [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] page. Wikipedia is governed by the consensus of reliable sources, and multiple reliable sources have brought up this topic to the extent that an entire individual page on the wiki exists to cover it, thus the content is [[WP:DUE]]. To not ''at least mention it'' on this page would be a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[Wikipedia:I just don't like it|I don't like it]] through the introduction of editorial bias by having Wikipedia editors decide that the issue is &quot;not important&quot; enough to mention on this page, despite multiple RS clearly making the case that this issue is worth mentioning. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:58, 20 October 2024 (UTC) * Regarding the rally in Oaks, PA that's been mentioned in this section and in various news media sources, here's the full video of it from C-SPAN [https://www.c-span.org/video/?539179-1/president-trump-hosts-town-hall-oaks-pennsylvania]. I think it's been mischaracterized as age and health concerns for Trump. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 07:28, 17 October 2024 (UTC) * '''Yes'''! Its absurd having a long article [[Age_and_health_concerns_about_Donald_Trump]] with 120 references but trying to hide that in the main article. This is really a hot topic in the media (US and abroad) so deleting it here is really ridiculous. Especially with the [[Joe Biden]] entry featuring [[Joe_Biden#Age_and_health|such an paragraph]]. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 19:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ::''Comment:'' Amen to this. Biden has never been diagnosed with dementia, so it would be wildly improper to suggest that he does, per [[WP:MEDRS]], but we ''can and should'' report the widely [[WP:RS]]-reported ''public political controversy'' regarding the possibility of dementia, per [[WP:NPOV]], as it is politically significant. Trump should not be treated as a special case who is somehow privileged over others. &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 06:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC) * '''Yes''' for basically the reason Andol gave. There's a long article on these concerns, so we clearly have ample sourcing for them, so it's weird we're not mentioning them much here. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 01:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Support'''. The decline may not have been as obvious as Biden's because it started from a much lower baseline, but it was noticeable and noticed. Just this week, there was the 39-minute musical interlude at the Oaks, PA, town hall; the non-responsive rambling during the Bloomberg interview; [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/20/us/politics/trump-meandering-remarks.html on Friday, a 10-year old asked Trump] on [[https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-says-he-surprised-vp-kamala-harris-skipped-al-smith-dinner-terrible-decision Fox&amp;Fiends (at 34:26)] who his favorite president was when he was little. Trump said &quot;Reagan&quot;, then rambled on about Lincoln, the Civil War, Ukraine, Russia, October 7, buying oil from Iran, etc.; and at yesterday's rally in Latrobe, PA, where he [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/19/us/politics/trump-vulgarity-pennsylvania-rally.html &quot;spewed crude and vulgar remarks&quot;] and regaled the crowd with tales of Arnold Palmer being &quot;strong and tough&quot; and &quot;unbelievable&quot; in the shower, adding to the &quot;impression of [Trump] as increasingly unfiltered and undisciplined&quot;. Quoting the AP headline: [https://apnews.com/article/trump-arnold-palmer-closing-arguments-latrobe-pennsylvania-2bea9620c523e531a55259200215284e Trump kicks off a Pennsylvania rally by talking about Arnold Palmer’s genitalia]. [https://www.npr.org/2024/10/20/g-s1-29100/trump-pennsylvania-rally-arnold-palmer NPR called it] &quot;an unusually energetic rally for the former president, who has looked and sounded tired of late while doing multiple events and interviews a day across multiple swing states&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Gold|first=Michael| url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/19/us/politics/trump-vulgarity-pennsylvania-rally.html|title=At a Pennsylvania Rally, Trump Descends to New Levels of Vulgarity|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=October 19, 2024|access-date=October 20, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Bender|first=Michael C.| url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/20/us/politics/trump-meandering-remarks.html|title=Four of Trump’s Most Meandering Remarks This Week|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=October 20, 2024|access-date=October 20, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:50, 20 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} *'''Oaks Town Hall''' — (Good-faith [[WP:RTP|refactoring]] of distracting side issue was reverted. The following posts were in response to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADonald_Trump&amp;diff=1251650376&amp;oldid=1251639023 this]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ) ::It wasn't a rally. It was a &quot;[[Town hall meeting|town hall]]&quot; staged by the Trump campaign, with Republican operatives posing as &quot;constituents&quot; and reading off cue cards. One of them, &quot;Angelina who had voted Democrat all my life and was from a Democrat union household&quot; had to correct herself because she forgot to say &quot;union household&quot;; she's Angelina Banks who was the Republican nominee for Township Commissioner and State Representative in Pennsylvania's 154th and lost with 19.3% to Nelson's 80.7%.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Wolff |first=J.D. |url=https://www.meidasplus.com/p/busted-former-republican-candidates |title=Busted! Former Republican Candidates Posed As Constituents at Trump's PA Town Hall |work=[[MeidasTouch]] |date=October 17, 2024 |access-date=October 17, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=https://southbendtribune.com/elections/results/race/2022-11-08-state_house-PA-39234/ |title=2022 Pennsylvania State House - District 154 Election Results |work=[[South Bend Tribune]]|date=January 26, 2023 |access-date=October 17, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; Mischaracterized? The campaign had prepared 10 Q&amp;As but [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/us/politics/trump-town-hall-dj-music.html after five] the Q&amp;A turned into a [https://www.npr.org/2024/10/15/g-s1-28276/trump-town-hall-ends-with-extended-musical-fest-while-he-stands-on-stage bizarre musical event] with Trump giving a minion a playlist and then standing on stage not even dancing. Just standing, occasionally swaying, jerking his arms, finger-pointing at the audience, and making faces/smiling(?). &lt;small&gt;And, in keeping with the musical theme, two days later Fox unearthed the set of [[Hee Haw]] for an all-women town hall with an [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/16/media/fox-news-women-town-hall-supporters/index.html audience of MAGA supporters] asking curated puff questions.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 11:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} ::{{tq|I think it's been mischaracterized...}} You personal analysis of reliable sources is of no concern to this page. If the sources cover this as an example of the subject's mental decline, then so shall we. Not necessarily in the proverbial &quot;WikiVoice&quot; but as &quot;sources say.&quot; For now. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 12:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' There are no reliable secondary sources reporting that Trump has age-related cognitive decline, just speculation from his opponents. One editor mentioned that we covered this for Biden, but it was in the article about his recent presidential campaign. That's where this informtion belongs. It isn't possible to list every accusation made by his opponents in this article, so there is a high bar for inclusion. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 11:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC) :: Speculation from his opponents? You mean denial of his supporters? I think it is obvious to ''everyone except is supporters'' that he has massive issues. This is not a political campaign. It is a topic reported in international media all over the world, even making headlines. And everyone can see it. The only news outlets that don't report on this are the conservative media in US! Think about that. Greetings from Germany, where Trumps decline seems to be better covered than in (the conservative) parts of the US media. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 19:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC) ::Is there something askew with these sources? They seem to be speculating at the very least. ::[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/06/us/politics/trump-speeches-age-cognitive-decline.html NYT: Trump’s Speeches, Increasingly Angry and Rambling, Reignite the Question of Age] ::[https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-age-speeches-rambling-mental-fitness-b2625103.html Independent: Trump’s rambling and angry speeches raise questions about his age and fitness to serve four years] ::[https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-cognitive-decline-election-2024-b2593296.html Independent: Experts say Trump’s speaking style shows ‘potential indications of cognitive decline’] ::[https://newrepublic.com/post/182908/video-trump-cognitive-decline-memory-issues New Republic: Watch: Embarrassing Video Reveals Trump’s Alarming Cognitive Decline] ::[https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2024/09/trump-harris-debate-cognitive-decline/679803/ The Atlantic: Trump’s Repetitive Speech Is a Bad Sign] ::[https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2024/05/18/biden-trump-age-cognitive-decline/ WaPo: What science tells us about Biden, Trump and evaluating an aging brain] ::[https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2024-09-25/2024-election-trump-mental-acuity LA Times: Trump’s rhetorical walkabouts: A sign of ‘genius’ or cognitive decline?] ::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 02:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC) :::Reliable sources lose their reliability when they express politically motivated opinion and manipulation during a heated election campaign. Buried in one of those sources is a glimmer of rational journalistic integrity, &quot;...the experts in memory, psychology, and linguistics who spoke to STAT noted that they couldn’t give a diagnosis without conducting an examination...&quot;. Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:17, 20 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Not according to policy, bias it not a justification for rejecting a source, only lack of factual accuracy. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:27, 20 October 2024 (UTC) ::::: Don't fall for the bias claim. It doesn't make you biased if you report on those glaring issues. They are obvious. Rather the opposite is true. It takes willful denial, i.e. bias, to not see it. The whole point here is that Trump as a whole is such an abnormal person that he has shifted the goalposts to such a distance that there is no standard to measure him and thus he can get away with anything. And that is a problem for Wikipedia, because Biden is compared to normal people (making him look old), while Trump is compared to himself. Add the near-total polarization in the US, which has his supporters deny everything, even the possibility that there could be anything. Please step back and look up, how the Rest of the world looks at Trump and this election. It's not how the US see it. Trust me. 80 % of the population is in utter disbelieve how Trump with all of his glaring issues even got there, lest how someone who is right in his mind can even think a second of voting for him. And we do really debate ''if'' he has issues? Claiming he hasn't is biased, not the other way round. This is a clear situation where the truth is ''not'' halfway in the middle. Look at [https://x.com/harris_wins/status/1847767276998557876 this]. Just imagine Joe Biden or Kamala Harris being on stage bragging about the size of some dudes dick. The outcry would be thermonuclear and it would be broadly covered in his or her article in literally five seconds. Here? Thats Trump, normal day in the office, so what. Irrelevant, he made a thousand similar remarks. And that creates a systematic bias pro Trump, because there is no standard he doesn't fall short of, and therefore nothing is noteworthy, no matter how egregious. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 23:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' - If it was to be included, it would have to be introduced as mere speculation because of MEDRS, but I do not believe there has been any particulary significant RS reporting of speculation about cognitive decline as there was about Biden nor any substantive reason (like a drop out over it) to include it. Trump's speculated cognitive decline has only been popping in the news for the past couple months because he's now the old guy on the ticket, and Dems naturally want to capitalize on that. Not [[WP:DUE]] at this time. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC) **{{ping|R. G. Checkers}} And yet we have all the cites from mainstream media [[WP:RS]] cited above. Mysteriously, this sort of reporting is regarded as [[WP:NPOV]] when it comes to Biden, yet not for Trump. As Elon Musk would say, &quot;Interesting.&quot; Is there any point at which you might regarded the public debate about Trump's mental competence noteworthy enough to mention here, or are you just waiting for the election to be over? &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 17:48, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **:Yes, and it won’t be because he danced at a rally. It would be if there was sustained coverage over months long periods with concerns of cognitive decline or if he literally had drop out of the race because of it. But do I think that 3 weeks before an election with politics flaring and a sudden emphasis on his alleged mental decline is a good reason for inclusion? I answer no. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:18, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **::In other words, [[WP:DUE]] but not before the election? I didn't know WP had to adhere to DOJ guidelines. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **:::Is there some policy I'm not aware of that gives a waiting period, especially if your name isn't Joe Biden? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **::::That's not exactly what Mr. Checkers said. I agree that we should ensure the content is [[WP:DUE]] by waiting to see if it's a blip, or something carried through by the sources for more than a few days. Space4Time3Continuum2x, you are usually a stalwart adherent of both established consensus and conservative application of policy - what gives? [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 21:08, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADonald_Trump&amp;diff=1252267526&amp;oldid=1252231796 Last week happened]. &lt;small&gt;(I'm still trying to unimagine the unbelievable Arnold Palmer in the shower — a few extra nipples, a rudimentary third leg, a tattoo of Richard Nixon on his back? Although that one is on Roger Stone, I believe, another Trump friend.)&lt;/small&gt; This isn't new. [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/06/us/politics/trump-genius-mental-health.html NYT in 2018]: &quot;Trump's self-absorption, impulsiveness, lack of empathy, obsessive focus on slights, tenuous grasp of facts and penchant for sometimes far-fetched conspiracy theories have generated endless op-ed columns, magazine articles, books, professional panel discussions and cable television speculation.&quot; Now we have a flood of reporting on what was obvious for months for everyone who watched Trump rallys on C-SPAN. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::Your personal analysis or perceived opinion on what's &quot;obvious&quot; about political candidates is irrelevant to the discussion at issue. You're getting seriously close to [[WP:NOTFORUM]]. Quit rambling and stick to neutral discussion about the topic at hand to improve the encyclopedia. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 16:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::::[[WP:NOPA]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::::Asking you to stop violating policy is not a personal attack. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 18:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::This has been reported on maybe as far back as 2017. **:::::[https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2017/02/19/psychologist-calls-on-colleagues-to-sign-petition-for-trumps-removal/ 2017] **:::::[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2017/09/22/is-trump-mentally-ill-or-is-america-psychiatrists-weigh-in/ 2017] **:::::[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-dangerous-mental-illness-yale-psychiatrist-conference-us-president-unfit-james-gartner-duty-to-warn-a7694316.html 2017] **:::::[https://newrepublic.com/article/140702/medical-theory-donald-trumps-bizarre-behavior 2017] **:::::[https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2017-04-21/mental-health-professionals-debate-ethics-in-the-age-of-trump 2017] **:::::[https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2024-01-26/mental-acuity-questions-catch-up-with-trump Jan 2024] **:::::No one seems to be suggesting this goes into the lead sentence, and as far as policy goes, eerily similar material to [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] made it into the the Biden article as far back as July 4th, and it's STILL there. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 19:12, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::As is frequently pointed out to new users of this page, the fact that some other page on Wikipedia has a different consensus has no bearing on this one. That is usually understood when we are resisting putting something positive in, but seems all to quickly jettisoned when convenient. Regarding the Oaks Town Hall which precipitated this thread, neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources that Trump had some kind of mental episode. See for example: https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/trump-town-hall-derailed-after-medical-emergencies-crowd/story?id=114796716. I remain unconvinced that the content should be added. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::::{{tq|&quot;neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources&quot;}} **:::::::These threads get so long it's hard to keep track. Please link or cite examples of partisan and neutral sources to which you're referring if you get the chance, it would be very helpful. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::Judging by the headlines, we shouldn't use the 2017 sources per the Goldwater rule (psychiatrists/psychologists diagnosing people they haven't seen as patients). [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:45, 22 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::::Also, I may a bit confused as to where this thread begins and ends. I may be unintentionally conflating the Oaks town hall and the Proposal: Age and health concerns...Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 21:38, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *The 39 minute weird man-dancing (partly to YMCA, a song about gay hookups of all things) may actually be the worst example of his cognitive decline as he was quiet instead of rambling nonsense. Indeed, it could be an example of something not at all recent. It certainly doesn't belong in this article. Perhaps elsewhere. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 00:18, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *:Not sure if you've seen the unbiased raw video of the Oaks, PA event. On the webpage of C-SPAN's presentation of the full video [https://www.c-span.org/video/?539179-1/president-trump-hosts-town-hall-oaks-pennsylvania], to the right there is a list of the points of interest in the video: Gov. Kristi Noem (R-SD) Remarks, Fmr. President Trump Remarks, Affordable Homeownership, Family Request Congressional Hearing, Cost of Living, Immigration, Russia-Ukraine War, Immigration &amp; Deportation, Medical Emergency. Notably missing from C-SPAN's list is &quot;weird man-dancing&quot;. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *::What's your point? The C-SPAN video shows the entire event. The music starts at 45:00 and continues until the end. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *:::For context, note that the first medical emergency began at 39:00, 6 minutes before your start time. Viewing the video starting at 39:00 will give a better idea of what's going on. Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 23:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *::::I've seen the video and I don't see your point either. Trump just said that he is ahead in every one of the 50 states in the polls. Every state. His goofy, silent dancing was far more rational. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 00:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} What particularly irritates me here is the double standard of invoking [[WP:MEDRS]] in regard to this. No-one is asking for Wikipedia to state that Trump has dementia, or that he has suffered a medical cognitive decline; the issue here is that his increasingly erratic behavior has become a significant news story, and is being reported in reputable MSM sources such as the NYT and WP, who have bent over backwards to be fair to Trump, wouldn't have dreamed of doing eveen a few months ago. Yet for some reason, we're not allowed to use these [[WP:RS]] to report these events and the public concern about them in the MSM. This is a profoundly un-encyclopedic things to do that breaks the fundamental [[WP:NPOV]] policy. Rejecting any mention of significant major MSM coverage because you don't like it is just another form of [[WP:OR]], &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 17:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :But that is the consensus on this article. That MEDRS sources are required, even to have the conversation technically. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 17:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :: If this is absolute, then it could not be in the Biden article. But it is. Therefore there is no way to deny the pro Trump bias. MEDRS cannot only protect Trump, but ignore Biden. To me the deletion sounds politically motivated. And that is a major problem. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 20:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Andol|Andol]] Look at the top of the page in [[Talk:Donald_Trump#Current_consensus|current consensus #39]]. Nothing is politically motived. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 22:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I made a [[WP:BOLD]] edit to see how this plays out [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1253059503&amp;oldid=1253057147]. Maybe there is consensus? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 04:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I'm good with it and hope it sticks. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 14:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::Sorry DN, could you link to your change? I can't seem to find it. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:17, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::He changed it on the Joe Biden page, not the Trump one. I had the same confusion initially. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 20:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Ah. Thank you. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Please do NOT refer to me as &quot;he&quot;. They or them is fine. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I disagree MEDRS applies there any more than it does here, but I don't particularly care if it's in the lead or how much weight to give to it, so long as it's there. I {{em|will}} revert if someone tries to remove all three paragraphs about it in the other article though. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 10:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::An editor has now re-added [[Age and health concerns about Joe Biden]] back into the lead on [[Joe Biden]]'s BLP. I am not going to remove it, and agree that we should leave it. IMO [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] now seems over-[[WP:DUE|DUE]] here. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::Mx. Nipples, the existence of a section on another page has absolutely zero bearing on what should be on this one. None. We go by consensus, not by precedent. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 05:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC) {{cot|{{small|1=Off-topic about gender pronouns. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)}}}} ::::::::Please do not refer to me as &quot;Mx.&quot; or &quot;Mr.&quot; as that appears to be your intent. They/them is accurate. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{small|(Given that &quot;x&quot; is nowhere near &quot;r&quot; on a keyboard, I'm guessing &quot;Mx.&quot; was not a typo but an attempt to be gender neutral. It can be read as a convenient shorthand for &quot;Mr., Ms., or M-other, as you please&quot;. It's the best attempt available, since &quot;They/them Nipples&quot; would be nonsensical. Maybe we don't need to go any further down this rabbit hole, at least not on this page.) &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC)}} ::::::::::I simply asked for them not to call me that, I did not get upset or make a personal attack, I just made a simple request. I'm aware of what Mx. means and I simply do not wish be referred to in that manner. I do not care why you think it's any of your business or why you feel the need to intervene here, and that is a rabbit hole that certainly does not belong here. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::{{small|I read {{tq|1=&quot;Mr.&quot; as that appears to be your intent}} to mean you thought they meant (intended) &quot;Mr.&quot;. Sorry if I misread easily-misread writing. {{tq|1=I do not care why you think it's any of your business or why you feel the need to intervene here}} - Now you're gettin' me riled. Look, you comment on this page, regardless of the topic, and you open yourself up to replies from anybody. There are no &quot;private&quot; conversations here or almost anywhere else at Wikipedia. You want a &quot;private&quot; conversation, use email. That's how it works, like it or not. End. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:49, 28 October 2024 (UTC)}} ::::::::::::You're the one that brought it up ''here'', and I have since moved it to a personal talk page, where it belongs. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC) {{cob}} :::::::↑↑↑↑ Agree as to process. Other articles never affect this article ''unless a community consensus says they do for a specific discrete situation''. This is a common misconception, understandable given the human desire for consistency, but you won't find it anywhere in policy, and not for lack of attempts to make it so. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::That was more of an aside. See Riposte's removal of cited content on the current subject, referring to a now seemingly dormant discussion. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Yes.''' It's been covered extensively in media reports, which is the only criteria that really matters here. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 17:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Question''' [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253835469&amp;oldid=1253814840 edit] - There has been no further discussion here for the last few days. What is still being discussed? BTW, &quot;age and health concerns for Joe Biden&quot; was added back into his BLP in the lead, and I see no further arguments over MEDRS. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *:If you have a problem with the Biden page, take it to the Biden page. There is currently no consensus to add the disputed material to this page. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 05:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::I never had a problem with the Biden BLP, but I asked you what is left to discuss here. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:20, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::I'll ask again. What is left to discuss? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:27, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *:::I agree with you that there isn't a ton left to discuss. But the discussion did not end with your proposed addition achieving consensus. As already outlined in this thread: (1) [[WP:NOTSOURCE|wikipedia is not a source]], what occurs on a totally different page has no bearing on this one; and (2) Even if it did, the situations are clearly distinguishable. It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because ''it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race.'' The same is not true for Trump. Thus, since the situations are distinguishable and consensus has not adopted it, it's unlikely to be added. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 20:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::::To be clear, it wasn't ''my'' proposal, and the primary argument against the addition seemed to be that it violated MEDRS, not because this BLP needed to be like the Biden BLP. The Biden BLP was only used as an example of how the MEDRS argument didn't seem to hold water. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::::{{tq|&quot;It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race.&quot;}} *::::I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other? *::::Anyway, that content was added BEFORE Biden dropped out. *::::So, there goes that excuse. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::{{tq| I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other?}} We aren't. That's why I explicitly began the point with &quot;Even if it did&quot;. We don't use another page as a source, ''but even if we did,'' the situations are clearly distinguishable for the reasons already outlined throughout the post. The addition doesn't have consensus, so it's not going to be added at this time. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 13:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for the Oaks Town Hall to be used as evidence for concerns about age and health, especially in VOICE. Far from it. I simply disagree that there is any clear violation of MEDRS to include ''something like'' (below) *::::::*Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/22/trump-age-health/ WaPo] *::::::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::Well, that's not really what this thread entitled 'Oaks Town Hall' is about. Perhaps start a new one with your suggested text. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 21:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::Why start yet another thread? Seems like an additional time sink. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 21:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' - sorry, I missed this on the talk page. Now extensive and increasing sourcing on the topic. [[User:Blythwood|Blythwood]] ([[User talk:Blythwood|talk]]) 17:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *:Seems like the Harris campaign and news media have moved from age and health concerns to fascism. Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns? Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 19:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::Seems there was a YouGov poll and pieces in Time magazine and the New Yorker, recently... *::&quot;As the calls grow for Donald Trump to release his medical records, Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris called out her opponent once more during a rally in Houston, Texas, on Friday. She pointed towards the legal battle of Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton and other Texas right wing leaders to access the private medical records of patients who seek out-of-state abortions.&quot; [https://time.com/7099183/donald-trump-medical-records-absent-controversy-presidential-election-2024/ Time 10-27-24] *::&quot;Over half of Americans, 56 percent, said they believe that Trump’s age and health would impact his ability to serve as commander-in-chief at least a little bit, according to another YouGov poll conducted earlier this month. *::Over one-third, 36 percent, said the former president will be “severely” undercut by his age and health. Another one-third, 33 percent, said those factors will not impact the Republican nominee. *::Inversely, 62 percent of Americans said Harris’s health and age will not affect her work in the White House if she is elected president, according to the survey.&quot; [https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4955179-growing-concerns-trump-biden-age/ The Hill 10-26-24] *::&quot;couple of weeks ago, Donald Trump turned in one of his strangest performances in a campaign with no shortage of them—part of a series of oddities that may or may not constitute an October surprise but has certainly made for a surprising October. 'Who the hell wants to hear questions?' he hollered at a town hall in Pennsylvania, after two attendees had suffered medical emergencies. Then he wandered the stage for nearly forty minutes, swaying to music from his playlist—'Ave Maria,' 'Y.M.C.A.,' 'Hallelujah.'&quot; [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/11/04/trumps-health-and-ours The New Yorker 10-27-24] *::&quot;An increasing number of Americans say Donald Trump is too old to be president — but not as many as when President Joe Biden faced similar concerns about his age over the summer. *::A new poll from YouGov found that 44 percent said Trump, at age 78, is too old to lead the executive branch. That figure is up from 35 percent who said the same in a similar February survey.&quot; [https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-age-voters-mental-health-b2636214.html The Independent 10-27-24] *::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::Respectfully, there is no way this is going to get consensus here. If you feel really strongly, maybe start an RfC. That would probably be the most appropriate way to displace the existing RfCs. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 07:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::I was replying to Bob K3416's recent request...&quot;Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns?&quot; *::::Your declarative statement may be a bit out of place in this context, and brings up what appears to be an inconsistency. *::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253835469&amp;oldid=1253814840] As you also stated in your recent removal of cited content that is months old (clarify - irl - not the article itself)... {{tq|&quot;This is still being discussed on the talk page&quot;}} *::::What are the means by which to reconcile {{tq|&quot;this is still being discussed&quot;}}, at the same time as, {{tq|&quot;there is no way this is going to get consensus here&quot;}}? *::::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 08:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::Thanks for your response with the links. *:::::Regarding the rest of your message, the logic isn't clear. Various messages here are evidence that it is still being discussed and the point that you are trying to make with your sentence, &quot;What is the means...&quot; is unclear. For one thing, note that you are comparing an edit summary on the article page with a message on this talk page. Seems like apples and oranges. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 13:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::Darknipples has now edited their comment, although the argument isn't any more compelling imo. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::I was about to add (Btw I corrected my grammar slip) Reverting under the auspices of &quot;it's under discussion&quot;, gives the appearance of contradiction to the recent declaration that &quot;there is no way to achieve consensus&quot; *::::::Granted, I wouldn't completely disagree with Riposte97's removal of some of the context, but the rest seems like it could be DUE. (below) *::::::*Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates.&lt;ref name=&quot;Renewed scrutiny&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Kranish |first=Michael |date=July 22, 2024 |title=Trump's age and health under renewed scrutiny after Biden's exit |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/22/trump-age-health/ |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]] |access-date=13 October 2024 }}&lt;/ref&gt; *::::::A partial revert leaving this portion would seem fine. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::The second sentence wasn't in the given source. The insinuation of being in poor health since becoming a politician is contradicted by the fact that he served 4 years as president without any apparent chronic health problem or physical weakness, and he is currently vigorously campaigning for president. Be careful of age discrimination where healthy people are presumed weak and unhealthy because they are old. If you were elderly, healthy and strong, I don't think you would like people insinuating that you were unhealthy and weak because you were chronologically old. Be well. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 08:04, 30 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::{{tq|&quot;The second sentence wasn't in the given source.&quot;}} *::::::::Good catch, I pulled it from the edit that was reverted so maybe the citation might have been placed further in. *::::::::As far as &quot;insinuating he is in poor health&quot;, that is not what the proposal is about. The proposal was for reports regarding public concern for his age and health, that does not involve speculation or &quot;insinuate&quot; anything specific as to violate MEDRS. *::::::::*&quot;The age of presidential candidates has been a key issue for voters this year. A Washington Post-ABC News-Ipsos poll, conducted before last week’s Republican convention, found that 60 percent of Americans said Trump is too old for another term as president, including 82 percent of Democrats, 65 percent of independents and 29 percent of Republicans.&quot; *::::::::[[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 09:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::His age is already in the article. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 04:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::Water is wet. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Yes'''. There is overwhelming and [[WP:SUSTAINED]] coverage of it at this point; the fact that it is speculative (which some people object to above) doesn't matter, since we do cover speculation when it has sufficient coverage and is clearly relevant to the subject. As [[WP:BLP]] says, {{tq|If an '''allegation''' or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it}}, emphasis mine. For recent coverage, which someone requested above, see eg. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Americans are increasingly concerned about Donald Trump’s age and fitness for office|url=https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/50808-americans-are-increasingly-concerned-about-donald-trumps-age-and-fitness-for-office|website=today.yougov.com}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|first1=Rebecca|last1=Schneid|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=The Controversy Over Trump's Medical Records, Explained|url=https://time.com/7099183/donald-trump-medical-records-absent-controversy-presidential-election-2024/|date=27 October 2024|website=TIME}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|first1=Filip|last1=Timotija|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Many Americans worried about Trump’s age, but less than Biden: Survey|url=https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4955179-growing-concerns-trump-biden-age/|date=26 October 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=A growing number of Americans are concerned with Trump’s age|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-age-voters-mental-health-b2636214.html|date=27 October 2024|website=The Independent}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Trump would be the oldest person to become president. He's not sharing health details|url=https://apnews.com/article/trump-harris-presidential-election-age-health-medical-records-7bb8212c1024748371e43b85e137bae5|date=16 October 2024|website=AP News}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Trump acts erratically. Is this age-related decline?|url=https://www.deccanherald.com/world/trump-acts-erratically-is-this-age-related-decline-3250551|website=Deccan Herald}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|first1=Joanne|last1=Lynn|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=I’m a geriatric physician. Here’s what I think is going on with Trump’s executive function|url=https://www.statnews.com/2024/10/30/trump-cognitive-health-executive-function-biden-aging-president/|date=30 October 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;; for older coverage, there's a massive number of sources on [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]]. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 15:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Yes'''. See [[Public image of Donald Trump#Temperament]]. [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 23:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC) * I think it's time to close this discussion. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 03:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *:What rationale? Stale? Consensus? We need a rationale or we just let things fall off the page naturally. Of course we've just added another 14 days by merely saying this. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *::There is at least consensus to change Consensus item #39 (last modified July 2021) to allow discussion regarding Trump's mental health or fitness for office even without diagnosis. Biden's cognitive health has been in his article since 9/2023: [[Special:Diff/1175184377]] [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 06:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *::Uninvolved close sounds prudent. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *:I was confusing &quot;close with consensus assessment&quot; with &quot;close to get stuff off the page per consensus 13&quot;. Sorry Bob. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} == Another reverted edit == @[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] My edit was not whitewashing. It clarifies the view of the source, that &quot;research suggests Trump's rhetoric ''may have'' caused an increased incidence of hate crimes&quot;: a correlation, while not the opinion of the experts quoted in the source that it necessarily involves causation. As concerns the other edit, the &quot;clunky needless wording&quot; is a necessary detail. As it is now, it sounds like its saying that Trump dictated the letter to some secretary or whatnot, without the doctor present. In reality, he dictated it to the doctor, who told him what he couldn't put in it. [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 22:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 01:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC) ::I disagree with @[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]]’ assertion that your edit is whitewashing, but your edit is written in an argumentative matter. The previous statement states that the Trump comments highlighted were widely criticized, a plain true/false statement. Your “this is despite” implies your addition of text is a rebuttal to the general consensus. It is far from neutral and needs improvement. There should be more discussion on whether Trump’s implied clarification made soon after the comments in question as well. Do NOT edit until there is consensus. Hope this is helpful [[User:Slothwizard|Slothwizard]] ([[User talk:Slothwizard|talk]]) 02:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC) :::You appear to be confusing two reverts. This diff is the revert I'm talking about in this talk page section: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1251380654&amp;oldid=1251370072. The edit to the section about the allegations of white supremacy (which was also reverted) is discussed in [[Talk:Donald_Trump#reverted edit]]. [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 03:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC) ::::My bad. Your addition of Bornstein clarifying what he could not add was grammatically incorrect and unnecessary. Your second edit with adding “may” was not whitewashing; unfortunately the citations are not related to the claim, so I am not sure why that sentence is there in the first place. New sources or remove sentence; unless someone clarifies to me about this section. No editing until more discussion is made, would like to hear more opinions. [[User:Slothwizard|Slothwizard]] ([[User talk:Slothwizard|talk]]) 03:53, 22 October 2024 (UTC) :::::(Do we need to salute and shout &quot;Sir, yes, sir!&quot;?, or am I misreading telegram style?) Assuming that the edits in question are [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1251366835&amp;oldid=1251002499 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1251366835 this] one, reverted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1251370072 here], I agree with the revert. Bornstein: clunky &amp; needless. Trump rhetoric verified by the AP and WaPo cites: &quot;suggests&quot; says that the rhetoric may be the cause. If the sentence had read that &quot;research said that Trump's rhetoric caused ...&quot;, we'd have to say &quot;may have caused&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:00, 22 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::The detail is a necessary detail, citing what I have said above, but improvements to the grammar of the phrase can be made. [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 23:58, 22 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::I assume the repetition of Bornstein's name is what you are referring to when you say &quot;clunky&quot;. If it's the repetition of his name then which of these two do you think work? :::::::&quot;to him while Bornstein said what couldn't be put in it&quot; :::::::&quot;to him while Bornstein informed him what couldn't be put in it&quot; [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 01:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thoughts? [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 16:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::@[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]] @[[User:Slothwizard|Slothwizard]] @[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 19:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::I haven't changed my mind. None of the proposed changes is an improvement. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::Do you have any thoughts on the proposed ways to improve the problems with the proposed edit?[[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 02:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::My thoughts are that this happened a month ago and no one really cares. Your suggested edit did not gain consensus so, drop it and move on. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 03:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC) == fascist in lead == is attributed to ten sources in the body, {{u|Zenomonoz}} [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 05:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :Fascism is an radical extreme nationalist ideology controlled by a dictator, this does not describe Trump or his ideologies, he is a nationalist, populist, and protectionist republican politician, as mentioned in the lead, “fascist” in this case is being used to describe someone you dislike. [[User:Big Mocc|Big Mocc]] ([[User talk:Big Mocc|talk]]) 23:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1252842766 :I’m actually having trouble finding your statement, that some of the people who used to work for him said he's a fascist, in the body. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 05:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::Milley, Mattis and Kelly. I can add those. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 05:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I think [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1252830365 your sentence] is too trivial to constitute a mention in the lead. It wouldn't make sense to include mention of positive characterisation by his former colleagues, either. What am I missing? [[User:Zenomonoz|Zenomonoz]] ([[User talk:Zenomonoz|talk]]) 05:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I contend that (now) 13 references to fascist in the body is not trivial, but rather a very significant matter that is worthy of lead inclusion for a man who seeks the presidency. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 06:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I now added them to the body, so there are now 13 attributions, which I believe is adequate for lead inclusion, and the inclusion is not up top.[https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/10/12/mark-milley-donald-trump-fascist/][https://www.thebulwark.com/p/mattis-told-woodward-he-agreed-trump][https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/22/politics/trump-fascist-john-kelly/index.html] [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 06:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::[[WP:LEAD]] isn't about number of cites. Per current article ''content'' on &quot;fascist&quot;, it clearly fails inclusion in the lead. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 06:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::please would you cite the specific verbiage of LEAD to which you refer? [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 07:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{tq|the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents.}} Mentioned once in a series (described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, fascist) in [[Donald Trump#2024 presidential campaign|2024 presidential campaign]] is not enough IMO; populist and authoritarian are also mentioned in [[Donald Trump#Campaign rhetoric and political positions|Campaign rhetoric and political positions]]. However, it wasn't just historians and scholars, it was also people (&quot;my generals&quot;) who worked for him during his term in office (Defense Secretary Mattis, Chief of Staff Kelly) and Milley, who was handpicked by Trump for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the top military job — hardly the kind of people that can be smeared as &lt;s&gt;far-left&lt;/s&gt; radical-left lunatics. If that is added to the body, then IMO we should add &quot;fascist&quot; to the lead. I haven't read Woodward's book yet, and I still have to go through the numerous sources that were added recently. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :I'm ultimately against the 'fascist' label being included as it's been a subject of contention and debate for 8 years now. The debate is more nuanced than how many citations we can find with the word being included –&amp;nbsp;which is why we should link to [[Trumpism]] where this nuance can be explored in-depth. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 07:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::yes, fascist has been discussed for years, and many have been reluctant and resistant to speak ''the word'', but we now have three senior generals who served him speaking the word, yet the word remains buried in 13 references in the body. I am not persuaded that at this point exclusion from the lead would persist in any other person's BLP under similar circumstances. The sentence does not say he is a fascist, but rather that some historians, scholars and generals have characterized him as such, which is consistent with the body. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 07:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::Isn't Trump the [[de facto]] leader of a [[neo-fascist]] party? The main article on the ideology describes it as including &quot;nativism, xenophobia, and anti-immigration sentiment&quot; [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 07:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::We don't describe the GOP as being a neo-fascist party on Wikipedia. There are far-right elements to the party, for sure, but again that's why we can't extrapolate and say the ''whole'' party is neo-fascist and that Trump is their leader, therefore he is fascist. ::::The topic of whether Trumpism is fascist is still hotly debated, hence why a link to the article where that debate takes place is more appropriate. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 07:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Agreed. I'd also reiterate Czello's point that the lead follows the text of the body. Unless something stated in the body, it should be in the lead. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 08:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::waaay down there, the body says &quot;fascist&quot; with 13 references [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Trumpism would not exist without Trump. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::I'm not sure what argument you're making here. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 08:17, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::I see no cause to deflect to [[Trumpism]] when its source is Trump, so it belongs here [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:24, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Because the Trumpism article is where we can dedicate more space to the nuance of the discussion. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 08:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::I don't see nuance of discussion there and a short conclusive sentence here as mutually exclusive [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::The article is nuanced discussion from beginning to end. It's pretty solely dedicated to exploring the intricacies of the ideoloy and its leanings. The whole point of having splinter articles is so that we can dedicate more space to exploring these topics more fully without overburdening the parent article –&amp;nbsp;and, in this case, an article that is already much too big. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 09:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::I would be disinclined at the moment. If we're counting sources, 10 (or 13?) sources out of about 850 is worth maybe about a third of a sentence? I don't think it would be easy to appropriately contextualise that. Relative to the body, we have short paragraph, not entirely about fascism, mentioning it briefly. I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 08:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::Seems notable according to [[Steven Levitsky]] and the NYT...&quot;never before has a presidential nominee — let alone a former president — openly suggested turning the military on American citizens simply because they oppose his candidacy.&quot; [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/15/us/politics/trump-opponents-enemy-within.html NYT 10-15-2024]. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::So notable I do not see the word &quot;fascist&quot; there. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::DN, Do you believe Trump said that as depicted by that excerpt? [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Bob, SS, I was replying to Alpha's statement - &quot;I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully.&quot; I have not commented on the fascist label as of yet, so please hold your horses. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Bob. I have started a couple talk page sections with sources on authoritarian rhetoric. See [[Talk:Donald Trump#2024 campaign rhetoric &quot;The enemy within&quot;]] &amp; [[Talk:Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Rhetoric Section Fails NPOV]] subsection (&quot;The enemy within&quot; rhetoric). Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 23:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :Two minds this is a BLP, but it is an accusation that is out there, but does this take up a significant part of our article? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::My estimate is that less than 1% of the current article body can be said to address fascism or topics directly adjacent. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 10:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I agree with this analysis. As pointed out by @[[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]], it's the ''content of the article '', not number or variety of sources that determine what's in the lead, and the amount of the article that is actually about fascism or fascist-adjacent is low. I think most people on both sides of the aisle understand that this is primarily just a mudslinging pejorative term used in the course of politics. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 14:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Agreed, and that's precisely why it's UNDUE for the lead. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 12:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :Putting &quot;fascist&quot; in the lead, would be quite problematic. Indeed, attempts to add such a label shortly before the US prez election, doesn't look too good as it's likely to stir up emotions. In other words, the timing stinks. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::Arguments on DUE vs UNDUE aside, I agree that the stability of the article is concerning, and while these issues are separate, they are in no way mutually exclusive. This is the crux of Wikipedia's &quot;Achilles heel&quot; which puts a huge strain on admin and editors alike during elections. IMO though, it is an important discussion that should be held elsewhere, perhaps at the Village Pump. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 23:31, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::Historians and academics should be removed..... just American Media..... zero peer-reviewed academic journals listed as sources. &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold;color:darkblue&quot;&gt;[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]&lt;/span&gt;🍁 23:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::What leads you to believe the two are mutually exclusive? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::I'd usually agree, but with the assertions by the former Chief of Staff being the latest, this may be inching towards an actual, genuine descriptor of his actions and beliefs, rater than just a political pejorative. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 23:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::this is no longer about randos calling people they hate fascists and communists and terrorists and pedophiles and any other perjorative they can imagine. it's about Milley, Mattis and Kelly, top military officers he hired and they served under, in the Oval Office. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 00:55, 25 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Call me a stuffy academic, but I don't believe &quot;top military officer&quot; is a qualification that is of any use (expert opinion) for distinguishing what is fascism and what is merely other forms of far-right authoritarian populism. Leaving weight concerns aside, the attribution required would be entirely too unwieldy in my opinion. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 10:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Well everyone knows people who get fired arent bias. Plus its on msnbc, cnn, and others. It must be true. I really had to see if it is true. I voted for the evil orange man. Versus the hyena. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B]] ([[User talk:2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|talk]]) 03:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::According to [https://www.npr.org/2024/10/29/nx-s1-5164488/harris-trump-fascist-explained NPR],Kamala Harris said it,and Historians are debating [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 21:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{cot|{{small|1=[[WP:NOTFORUM]] and [[WP:NPA]] vios. At least. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)}}}} ::::@[[User:Soibangla|Soibangla]] Ironic that the very fascism taking root in America, expressed by the fascist sympathizers and enablers here (now echoed in Musk’s tantrum in on Twitler, I meant, Twitter…sorry, typo) IS the only reasonable explanation for excluding well-sourced and documented Trump’s fascism in the lead where it is MORE than [[WP:NOTABLE]]. If Trump’s own chief of staff, who was a General no less, says that Trump is the very definition of fascism, then what more do we need? Wikipedia remains broken as MAGA marches on. [[Special:Contributions/2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3|2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3]] ([[User talk:2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3|talk]]) 20:47, 29 October 2024 (UTC) {{cob}} == Trumps felon status should be added to his intro summary == This is literally done for everyone on Wikipedia except for Trump. This is a wilful hiding of information that is favorable to Trump and hides this important information from his google search summary. Please add, convicted felon to his intro to show an unbiased article. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3|2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3|talk]]) 15:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :is it? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :It is in the lead, in the final paragraph. A [[Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_170#RfC_on_use_of_&quot;convicted_felon&quot;_in_first_sentence|recent discussion]] concluded it shouldn't be in the first sentence. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 15:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :no, per [[MOS:CRIMINAL]]. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 10:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :^ [[Special:Contributions/2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881|2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881]] ([[User talk:2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881|talk]]) 08:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::yes it should be added plus president 45 and 47 :) [[Special:Contributions/2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B]] ([[User talk:2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|talk]]) 03:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :Please remove any terms referring to Trump as a &quot;felon&quot; or &quot;convicted felon&quot; from the lede and anywhere else throughout this page. Trump is not a &quot;felon&quot; or even a &quot;convicted felon&quot; until the JUDGE that is actually overseeing the case CONVICTS him and SENTENCES him. THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET. This is how the legal system actually works for those who do not know. :Any publication, news outlet or otherwise, is actually guilty of LIBEL for referring to someone who hasn't been convicted and sentenced BY THE JUDGE as such. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 01:44, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::Incorrect, per Wikipedia content policy. See [[WP:TRUMPRCB]] for elaboration on this point. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:57, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::More specifically, the policy at [[WP:BLPCRIME]] addresses this. It says nothing about ''sentencing''. He has been convicted. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::He has not been convicted. The jury has merely rendered a verdict. The judge can still throw away that verdict. :::Trump is not a convicted felon. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 21:46, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::And please refer to [[WP:SHOUT]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::And even Wikipedia's definition of convict says he has to be sentenced as well: :::&quot;A convict is &quot;a person found guilty of a crime and sentenced by a court&quot; Convict - Wikipedia :::AND sentenced by a court. AND, not OR. Because a jury cannot &quot;convict&quot; only a JUDGE can. If you want to know why Trump won, this is why. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 21:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::[[WP:CIRC|Wikipedia may not be used as a source for itself]]. Please provide reliable sources for your claim that Trump has not been convicted, or refer to [[WP:NOR]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::::This source good? Official Justice dept website :::::https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-609-evidence-conviction [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96|2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96|talk]]) 01:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::No. That source says nothing about Trump. See [[WP:SYNTH]]. Looking for reliable sources that say something like, &quot;Trump has been found guilty but not convicted.&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::&quot;In United States practice, conviction means a finding of guilt (i.e., a jury verdict or finding of fact by the judge) and imposition of sentence.&quot; :::::::That says it all. He is not a convict. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::You're [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/convict confusing the noun with the verb]. A jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts, i.e., he was convicted of a felony. That makes him a felon. The judge hasn't sentenced him yet, therefore he's not a convict, i.e., under sentence for a crime, which is exactly what [[Convict]] says. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 00:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I would be ready with updates for the 'Donald Trump convicted felon' part. Donald Trump's New York hush money case has been called off as the court decides how to move forward. The Trump Manhattan Fraud Case brought forth by Alvin Bragg has been stayed. It is indefinitely 'adjourned' as the Trump legal team moves to outright dismiss the case. More sources will follow this continuing development. [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14101607/donald-trump-hush-money-sentencing-called-off.html Donald Trump's hush money sentencing is called off] Daily Mail. &quot;The case could be delayed until after Trump exits the White House in four years or be dismissed outright.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 13:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::[[WP:DAILYMAIL|The Daily Mail is not a reliable source.]] '''''[[User:LilianaUwU|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:default;color:#246BCE;&quot;&gt;Liliana&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:#FF1493;&quot;&gt;UwU&lt;/span&gt;]]''''' &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:LilianaUwU|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/LilianaUwU|contributions]])&lt;/sup&gt; 13:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Here are USA Today and Bloomberg for more sources. There are many more. [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trumps-nov-26-hush-money-sentencing-in-ny-called-off-without-explanation/ar-AA1umZ9o Trump's Nov. 26 hush money sentencing in NY called off without explanation] Bloomberg. &quot;Whether Justice Juan Merchan decides the hush money case should proceed to sentencing, gets delayed for four years or is simply dismissed outright is an open question hanging over the president-elect.&quot; :::::::[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/11/19/trump-sentencing-hush-money-case-adjourned/76190286007/ Donald Trump's Nov. 26 sentencing in hush money case on hold as prosecution due to weigh in] USA Today. &quot;President-elect Donald Trump's Nov. 26 sentencing date in his New York hush money case is on hold as prosecutors face a Tuesday deadline to advise the judge on how to proceed in light of Trump's election victory.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 14:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::The only thing that might affect &quot;convicted felon&quot; is a successful self-pardon. Per policy, we will look to reliable sources as to whether that means he was never convicted&amp;mdash;our personal reasoning is irrelevant, as are (as I understand it) legal sources that don't specifically talk about Trump. Anyway, we are probably at least six months away from even considering a change, so this is more than a little premature. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I appreciate it. I would imagine the change will occur in under 9 weeks or before January 21th, 2025, possibly sooner. I guess it's a wait and see. Cheers. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 14:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I mean pardons can't erase historical events, just the present definition. If he self pardon it should be noted he self pardoned. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::&quot;A jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts, i.e., he was convicted of a felony.&quot; :::::Juries do not convict. Only a judge can do that. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == Adding links to the lead == I am seeking a consensus to add these links to the lead: #populist, protectionist, and nationalist --&gt; [[populist]], [[protectionist]] and [[nationalist]] #*These are specific enough terms that the average Jane probably isn't going to know a lot about. #*I have wanted to click on these before and couldn't. Why not just link them? #building a wall --&gt; [[Trump wall|building a wall]] #*This was a major part of Trump's 2016 rhetoric. #*There is an article on it. #initiated a trade war --&gt; [[China-United States trade war|initiated a trade war]] #*It's a specific and very important moment in his presidency. #*There is an article on it. What do y'all think? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 20:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC) :Blanket-'''oppose''' new links in the lead, per my opposition to steering readers from the lead to other articles, bypassing the related body content. [[User:Mandruss/sandbox|Lead-to-body links]] are a potential major improvement over no links in the lead, but that effort has stalled. That said, [[China-United States trade war|a trade war with China]], not [[China-United States trade war|initiated a trade war]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Support''', as these are useful and relevant links to the average reader which don't make the lead too bloated and provide value for those who want to read more about it. I'd also suggest linking &quot;[[Political positions of Donald Trump|his political positions]]&quot;. If we'd want to take a more restrictive approach to keep the lead clean, we could leave the links to &quot;populist, protectionist, and nationalist&quot; out, as these are links to general articles not directly related to Trump or his actions. However, the argument that we should try to avoid &quot;steering readers from the lead to other articles&quot; seems rather patronizing and not very rational to me. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 21:44, 26 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Support''' - helps the reader further understand the topic of the article per [[MOS:BUILD]]. The mentioned links are all important concepts for the article which the general reader will not be familiar with. --[[User:Guest2625|Guest2625]] ([[User talk:Guest2625|talk]]) 02:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose''' - We've enough links in the lead. Keep adding more &amp; we'll end up with a [[WP:SEAOFBLUE]] situation. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 02:47, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::This isn't a good argument, either logically or based on precedent. For starters, &quot;we've enough&quot; isn't argument, just a statement that means nothing without reasoning to back it up. Why do you believe we already have enough? ::And do you truly think the [[slippery slope fallacy|slope is that slippery]]? On ''this'' page? What is being proposed will not create any SEAOFBLUE issues, and this page will likely never contain any SEAOFBLUE issues in the lead for any lengthy period of time. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 03:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::On ''this'' page? Oh yes, the slope can be that slippery. PS - I still oppose your proposal. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:21, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose'''. See consensus 60, which, incidentally, resulted from the RfC in which you proposed ten other links. Seems to me that we've been heading down the slippery slope ever since because we already have several Wikilinks that violate the consensus (i.e., items that were in the lead at the time of the RfC, e.g., &quot;many false and misleading statements&quot; and others). And, obviously, items that were added later (e.g. felony convictions). {{tq|Helps the reader further understand the topic of the article per [[MOS:BUILD]]}} — reading the article and not just the lead would help. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:25, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::All you do is essentially referring to an old RfC and arguing that adding more links would violate the consensus reached back then, which is not an argument in itself. We gave valid arguments for why we think that adding further links would be an improvement. Like I already wrote, I think trying to force users to read the article by deliberately not adding links is quite patronizing and not very rational. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 14:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::Yeah, well, that &quot;old RfC&quot; is part of the current consensus, whether you consider it &quot;patronizing and irrational&quot; or not. [[WP:LEAD]] says {{tq|The lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents}}, not a collection of links to other pages. Nobody is forcing anybody to read anything on WP. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I know that this is the current consensus, and Cessaune and I are challenging it, arguing that adding the proposed links would be an improvement. So far, there has not been a single argument against including the proposed links; simply noting that adding further links would violate the current consensus is a mere observation, and citing this as a reason against the proposal is circular reasoning. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 15:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::1) I would tend to disagree that the RfC precluded the addition of new links. But let's assume it does. People such as yourself should've been jumping over themselves to revert. If people didn't/don't care to, then it couldn't have been all that important, or—my preferred theory—editors recognize the utility and don't see a problem with it. If, according to you, the outcome of the RfC has been effectively ignored by a lot of different people (including YOU, the author of a tenth of the text on this page and a quarter of the edits—someone who must've been very aware of this) that means... what exactly? Help me out here, because I'm genuinely confused. ::::2) If the consensus suggests that we are only allowed to add those links, I'm challenging the consensus directly here. So the outcome of the RfC is irrelevant. ::::3) Do you have an actual argument against adding the links? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 17:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::As to process, we have usually required ''significant new argument(s) or a significant change in the external situation'' to revisit an existing consensus. Otherwise, it's a simple roll of the dice that depends on who happens to show up; we could reverse the existing consensus only to have it restored in a few months after a change in the editor mix, back and forth indefinitely (make that make sense). Otherwise, it's a settled issue and time-limited volunteers have better ways to contribute than putting the same ingredients through the same machinery to see if we get a different product. It is not constructive to allow repeated bites at the same apple, and consensuses don't require periodic &quot;refresh&quot;. Unless you meet one of those criteria for revisitation, you and Cessaune challenging the existing consensus is no different from you and Cessaune having opposed it and ended up on the losing side. Do you meet either of them? (In this case, there doesn't appear to be any &quot;external situation&quot; [external to Wikipedia] that could change, significantly or otherwise. So that leaves significant new argument(s).){{pb}}By the by, the above reasoning is supported at [[WP:CCC]] (policy) in language about as strong as language ever gets in Wikipedia PAGs outside of [[WP:BLP]]: &quot;Editors may propose a change to current consensus, ''especially to raise previously unconsidered arguments or circumstances''.&quot; My emphasis. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:13, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I would say that the Abraham Accords RfC is where I stopped agreeing with this kind of philosophy. There were random, relatively frequent discussions all the time as to whether the Abraham Accords were DUE in the article, and all of them ended in 'consensus against' for literal YEARS. Until one of them didn't. I was very certain that an RfC wasn't warranted, and when one happened, I was somewhat certain that the outcome was going to come out as no consensus or consensus against. Yet here we are. This is a very similar situation. ::::What if I were to suggest that the want to lead readers to information trumps the want to steer readers to the body? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::::{{tq|Until one of them didn't.}} Did that one consider significant new arguments? I don't know much about the situation; had there been a significant change in the external situation that increased the DUEness? If either is true, that revisitation was warranted under this &quot;philosophy&quot;. If neither is true, the consensus change was solely due to a change in editor mix, which is precisely what we seek to avoid.{{pb}}What if somebody comes along who disagrees with the current Abraham Accords consensus? Would you support yet another revisitation, actively countering &quot;AGAIN??&quot; complaints, or do you assert &quot;settled issue&quot; when the current consensus is to your liking? Logically, those are the only two options if you reject this &quot;philosophy&quot;.{{pb}}{{tq|What if I were to suggest that the want to lead readers to information trumps the want to steer readers to the body?}} I was hoping to avoid this. If you were to suggest that to me, I would respond that you should pick up [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mandruss/sandbox&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1219737664 the ball you dropped in April] and get us moving on lead-to-body links again. They would serve both goals, leading readers to information while steering them to the body, and are the ultimate solution to this perennial problem.{{pb}}All of your three proposed items should be supported in this article's body&amp;mdash;else it's a bright red flag that the lead does not properly summarize the body&amp;mdash;so lead-to-body links could be used for those items. The link might need to be structured differently in some cases; for example [[User:Mandruss/sandbox|the current sandboxing]] includes: &quot;During the campaign, his political positions [[Donald Trump#Campaign rhetoric and political positions|were described]] as populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist.&quot; If we think links to [[Populist]], [[Protectionist]], and [[Nationalist]] are warranted, they could and should be provided inline in the body prose.{{pb}}Thus, lead-to-body links would both encourage and facilitate what are already widely-supported best practices.{{pb}}Too often forgotten or dismissed: The level of detail in this article's body will meet the needs and desires of many readers, who are not served by facilitating, even encouraging them to bypass our body. Steer readers to the body first, then let them decide whether to drill deeper. Some will and others won't, and everybody will be well-served and happy.{{pb}}Even if they choose not to read the body content, it's usually only one more click to reach the relevant other article. That effort may be compared to the effort of searching this massive table of contents for the body content elaborating on (and supporting) something you read in the lead. You think that's easy? Pretend you're new to the article and its ToC, forget everything you know about them, and try it for a few cases (no cherry picking). I think you'll find it's much harder than clicking a link in a hatnote at the top of a section you were just directed to. This equation may be different in shorter articles, which is why lead-to-body links should be nothing more than a local option; but they are ''sorely'' needed at at least one article&amp;mdash;this one&amp;mdash;and very likely others.{{pb}}We offer a hierarchy of detail&amp;mdash;lead→body→other articles&amp;mdash;and lead-to-body links merely make it as accessible as possible&amp;mdash;all of it, not just the first, third, and subsequent levels of detail. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::1) I actually tried to resume working on lead-to-body links, but I kept getting shut down by more experienced template editors and I still don't know how to solve the issue of switching text colors from white to black depending on the user's chosen theme. ::::::2) If lead-to-body links aren't an option, then what? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 03:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::1a) &quot;Shut down&quot; how and on what basis? 1b) Doesn't sound insurmountable to me.{{pb}}2) Premature question. As far as I'm concerned, they're an option until our best shot fails. We can cross that bridge if and when we come to it. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I'll ask again to see if anyone knows how to solve the theme issue. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 04:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{ping|Cessaune}} I suggest vagueness, leaving the reason for asking out of it if at all possible. Regrettably, many editors will find reasons why &quot;it can't be done&quot; (or will merely be less helpful than they could be) if they oppose the underlying goal/proposal. And this is not an issue to be resolved in template space, [[WP:VPT]], etc. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Also, for the record, I'd be willing to suggest that pushing this is functionally the same as pushing for more links in the lead, considering that efforts of this sort have been shut down before... [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 16:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::In my view, what we're proposing now is significantly superior to what has been shut down before (that's a whole other discussion). We've had more experience articulating the argument, so we do it better now. We've seen some of the major opposition arguments, so we can counter them before they're made. And it's had time to attract a larger support base, including Khajidha below. So I wouldn't let the past predict the future in this case. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;functionally the same&quot;. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose''' any and all links in lead. Full stop. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 12:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::Clarification, &quot;links&quot; here refers to links to other articles. I still think the experiment we had with links to the relevant sections of this article was a good idea. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 12:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::Do you have a justification for this? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 16:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose ''' [[Special:Contributions/132.147.140.229|132.147.140.229]] ([[User talk:132.147.140.229|talk]]) 16:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Support'''. This is what wikilinks are for. Arguments that adding links to the lead cause the article to be underdeveloped are quite unconvincing. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 16:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::'''Oppose''',we have a policy on this,Citations not needed in the lead [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 18:51, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::A citation and a link are completely different things. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 19:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::'''Neutral''' ,then,in that case [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 21:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == something feels missing on lead == By reading the lead, this is an exceptionally different read than other politican pages on wikipedia. It is almost exclusivelly composed of criticism. It feels extremelly strange that there is almost no direct analysis of how Trump won the US election. This is the only phrase that refers to it: &quot;During the campaign, his political positions were described as populist, protectionist, and nationalist.&quot; It feels so underdeveloped, indirect, as if it was avoiding the topic entirelly. Am I the only one feeling that this is an issue? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 10:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :No as the lede is a summery, the body is for more detailed reading into the subject. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:31, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :There are dozens if not hundreds of Wikipedia articles about Trump. His single-page, top-level biography is not the place to fully address things like {{tq|direct analysis of how Trump won the US election.}} Interested readers need to drill a little deeper than this article&amp;mdash;a task made very easy by the in-context links found in the article.{{pb}}As for {{tq|almost exclusivelly composed of criticism}}, read [[Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias]]. Since your comment has a little specificity, I'm opting not to close this thread per [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 61. Other editors are free to disagree, as always. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::Nothing against the criticism. Also I am asking, not even touched the edit button, so it would be kind of aggressive to shut the topic down immediatelly. ::I am not talking about fully adress, with &quot;direct analysis&quot; I still meant a summarization, same as it is done with criticism. ::I've read the link you are providing. It states &quot;Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires us to report the bad (negative) with the good (positive), and the '''neither-bad-nor-good''', '''in rough proportion''' to what's said in reliable sources, which in this case are '''largely major news outlets'''.&quot; ::I just remember that Trump victory was not an easy prediction, that it was very notable and widely analised by major news outlet. Just that. This is the main reason why the lead sounds weird to me. Like I said there is that phrase that at least refers to why he could have won, but it is very much indirect. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::Ok, but this can't go anywhere unless you propose specific change(s), supported by reliable sources. It's fairly uncommon for someone else to take up your banner just because you brought up the topic. If you ask, &quot;Who supports me on this?&quot;, the common response will be &quot;I don't know, that depends on the specifics. I don't support or oppose vague generalities.&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Sorry for the late reply. I couldn't edit in the past week. ::::I think it is a reasonable path to ask for other editors opinions before having a fully formed one myself to propose an edit. ::::I don't know what the best formulation would be to add a phrase about why and how Trump won his first election. But, like I said, I feel that it is a crucial piece of info currently missing. This feeling is supported by reading reliable sources at the time obviously. The fact that Trump won was arguably the most notable event of his life, full of social insights. ::::Also note, and that's what I found strange, that there is (as it should) a whole paragraph about that election already. Russian interference is noted, him losing the popular vote is noted, protests are noted, his campaign tone is noted yet... No direct mention or why/how he won. ::::Again, how do you, and other editors, feel about this? I am not asking anybody to take my banner, feel free to disagree. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The Electoral College. He won because of the Electoral College. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 14:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::@[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] thank you for coming to the discussion. That is already presented on the paragraph! It is clearly written that he lost the popular vote. ::::::Don't you think that one phrase with analysis of why he won could be helpful? Note that the lead for [[2016 United States presidential election]] is attempting to do something like that, with poor results in my opinion. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::No. The mechanics of the win is relevant to the election article and the article about his presidency, but not really to this article. Especially not to the lead. This is the article about Trump (the person), the fact that he won the 2016 election is the important part for the intro here. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 14:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Fair enough, is should be more developed on those two pages' leads. ::::::::But there already are broader social informations on the election paragraph in this lead. It mentions that Russia interfered to favor Trump, despite not being an action of Trump (the person), and the subsequent protests. How is a single phrase that directly refers to why he won less relevant than those two elements? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 15:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Just to further develop the very strange approach of this lead I want to point out how the very high quality lead of [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]] reads out. I am obviously choosing this lead NOT as a comparison of Hitler and Trump, but to showcase how even for an highly negative biography's lead there should always be room for social analysis. :::::::::{{tq|He was decorated during his service in the German Army in World War I, receiving the Iron Cross. In 1919, he joined the German Workers' Party (DAP), the precursor of the Nazi Party, and in 1921 was appointed leader of the Nazi Party.}} :::::::::This helps readers understand his rise to power. You could argue Trump's lead does the same, but I don't think it does. The references to his business empire don't connect at all to his political activities. :::::::::{{tq|After his early release in 1924, Hitler gained popular support by attacking the Treaty of Versailles and promoting pan-Germanism, antisemitism, and anti-communism with charismatic oratory and Nazi propaganda.}} :::::::::This directly connects his policies and style to popular support. :::::::::{{tq|Domestically, Hitler implemented numerous racist policies and sought to deport or kill German Jews. His first six years in power resulted in rapid economic recovery from the Great Depression, the abrogation of restrictions imposed on Germany after World War I, and the annexation of territories inhabited by millions of ethnic Germans, which initially gave him significant popular support.}} :::::::::This again connects his most negative actions to a complex set of economic and social relationships. :::::::::It would be very naive to frame lead writing as positive vs negative. The Trump's lead is currently avoiding any high quality summarization, shielding itself behind a fact checked style. I understand the difficulty of improving it, since this is a BLP and it will be challenged down to the comma. Still, the issue is there. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 16:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::@[[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]],Agreed,Wikipedia has to not take sides [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 18:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::this isn't that much about sides, criticism on lead are a good thing (per MOS) and are actually a big improvement on other politician pages. The issue is not having context (also required by MOS lead) to make sense of the info, even for the most notable facts as winning the election. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == Replacing the caption of Trump's 1964 yearbook picture == I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253907319&amp;oldid=1253846000 changed the caption] from &quot;Trump at &lt;s&gt;the&lt;/s&gt; [[New York Military Academy]], 1964&quot; to read &quot;Trump 1964 yearbook picture with medals borrowed from a classmate&quot;, with cite, and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1253907319 reverted] with the editsum &quot;Unnecessary and conveys less information&quot;. (I've since corrected the caption; New York Military Academy is a name like Whittier High School.) My proposed caption needs to be corrected, too: &quot;Trump's 1964 yearbook picture with medals borrowed from a classmate&quot;. It conveys more information than the current one which doesn't say that it's a yearbook picture; the name of the school is unnecessary since you can read it in [[Donald Trump#Early life|Early life]]. Borrowed medals: if Trump had been a member of the military, that would have been called &quot;stolen valor&quot;. {{cot|Buettner/Craig text}} If Donald resented taking orders from a contemporary like Witek, he still craved the tokens of status conferred by the system. Like most cadets, he had earned a few medals for good conduct and being neat and orderly. But his friend, Michael Scadron, had a full dozen by their senior year. On the day yearbook portraits were being taken, Donald showed up in Scadron’s barracks room and asked to borrow his dress jacket with the medals attached, Scandron told us. Donald wore those medals for the portrait, perplexing some of his fellow cadets. “He’s wearing my medals on his uniform,” Scadron later recalled. “I didn’t care one way or the other.” {{cob}} Vanity Fair [https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/donald-trump-status-military-academy published a longer excerpt]. It's the earliest example we have for Trump lying about his accomplishments/successes, illusion rather than reality. IMO that's less trivial than the yearbook picture itself. Opinions? [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :Either remove the picture or make it clear these are not his medals. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC) ::The detail about the medals (as reprehensible as it is) is not something that belongs in the caption. The whole affair should be covered in the article text.--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 22:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :::Agreed. Better covered in prose, subject to DUE as always. I'm not convinced it clears the bar, but that's really a separate issue that could be handled separately for the sake of organization. I'm confident you don't need to be informed that {{tq|as reprehensible as it is}} is irrelevant for our purposes; moral judgments are never a factor. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Yep, I was just trying to make it plain that I am not trying to hide unflattering facts.--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 00:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::::We should never need to explain ourselves like that, in my book. It's essentially apologizing for being a good editor. If someone suspects you of {{tq|trying to hide unflattering facts}}, that's on them. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:05, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::How about the caption &quot;Trump's 1964 yearbook picture&quot;? I don't think the name of the boarding school is more important than the fact that it's a yearbook picture. And for the uninitiated it sounds as though Trump was a cadet at an actual [[United States service academies|military academy]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::::{{tq|I don't think the name of the boarding school is more important than the fact that it's a yearbook picture.}} Omit the almost-obvious. Sure, he could've had the portrait made just so he could carry it in his wallet and gaze upon it from time to time, but that's not going to be a reader's first guess. {{tq|And for the uninitiated it sounds as though Trump was a cadet at an actual military academy.}} The adjacent prose says NYMA is &quot;a private boarding school&quot;. We're not catering to readers who just look at the pretty pictures and read their captions. And the only &quot;1964&quot; currently in the prose is about entering Fordham. So your proposal would be confusing, requiring readers to know that Fordham students don't wear uniforms. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Violation of [[WP:NPOV]], and not relevant to what is being discussed. [[User:Eg224|Eg224]] ([[User talk:Eg224|talk]]) 19:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ===Wording of sentence on Trump attending New York Military Academy=== :@[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] you appear to have violated the contentious topics procedure by reverting the restoration of longstanding content. Please self-revert immediately. :I note that the New York Military Academy uses a definite article when referring to itself. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 21:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC) ::It seems you have invented a designation that appears nowhere in [[WP:CTOP]], and even if it did, it would not apply to simple grammatical tweaks. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :::It's a 1RR violation. The content is clearly disputed, so it should be dealt with on the talk page. Again, please self revert while we discuss it here. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 23:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC) ::::One revert is not a 1RR violation. Please do not bandy about terms which you appear to be unfamiliar with. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:51, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Take it to AN. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:51, 31 October 2024 (UTC) I've now reverted the text to the longstanding version which wasn't the one I edited yesterday — another editor edited part of the sentence on October 16, so IMO 1RR wouldn't apply. The wording of the sentence is a separate issue from the caption. As for the school using the definite article when referring to itself, they do and they don't. (And does it matter? See Trump University.) Here are three examples for the school referring to itself and another private school the correct way: &quot;At NYMA, we’re dedicated to preparing you for the future&quot;; &quot;At NYMA, our partnership with Canterbury Brook Academy (CBA) significantly enriches students’ holistic development&quot;; &quot;The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;. And an example of the incorrect way: &quot;The mission of the New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;. (Not a typo, same sentence, once with &quot;the&quot; and once without.) &lt;small&gt; Names of colleges, universities, and other schools. Use &quot;the&quot; if the school’s title includes &quot;of&quot; or &quot;for&quot; (University of Maryland, Perkins School for the Blind). Don't use &quot;the&quot; if the school is named for a person or place (Baylor University, Harvard University).&lt;/small&gt; *Longstanding content: At age 13, he entered the [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school. *Proposed wording: At age 13, his father sent him to [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school. Reason: Trump didn't enter of his own volition, his parents entered him at NYMA. Kranish/Fisher: &quot;Near the end of seventh grade, Fred discovered Donald’s knives and was infuriated to learn about his trips into the city. He decided his son’s behavior warranted a radical change. In the months before eighth grade, Fred Trump enrolled Donald at the New York Military Academy, a boarding school 70 miles from Jamaica Estates.&quot; Gwenda Blair: &quot;In 1959, when he was thirteen, Donald Trump went off to New York Military Academy (NYMA) ... an institution that in the fall of 1959 resembled a child's toy soldier set&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :Re the &quot;the&quot;, can we agree that site-wide consistency as to the NYMA case is a worthy goal? If so, we need a single venue to discuss and decide the issue, which can then be easily found and referenced by editors of &lt;del&gt;other&lt;/del&gt; articles containing references to NYMA. I would suggest the NYMA article, which currently omits the &quot;the&quot;. In other words, any discussion of guidelines and other factors should occur there, not here. The discussion here should be: &quot;The NYMA article omits the 'the'. End.&quot;{{pb}}This is one of the very few situations where a different article should influence this one. Can I articulate the difference? Probably not. But it would be hard to assert &quot;other stuff exists&quot; about this; the &quot;the&quot; should be universally present or universally omitted for NYMA. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Edited 23:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::Although this is a minor point, the school itself uses 'the' when referring to itself using its full name, but omits the 'the' when using the acronym NYMA. Sources &gt; Wikipedia imo. See: https://www.nyma.org [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 23:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::{{tq|any discussion of guidelines and other factors should occur there, not here.}} Anyway, this article does not currently use the NYMA acronym. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::Not true. The school also doesn't use &quot;the&quot; when referring to itself by the full name, e.g., [https://www.nyma.org/ NYMA website], &quot;Leadership training&quot; section: &quot;The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop our cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;; [https://www.nyma.org/about/ NYMA website/about]: &quot;New York Military Academy (NYMA) was founded by Colonel Charles Jefferson Wright&quot;, &quot;The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Would anyone really expect a 13-year-old to have entered any school of their own volition? My opinion was neither sought nor desired when it came time for me to begin high school. I just can't see anyone interpreting the longstanding version the way you are worried about. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 16:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::The classmate he borrowed the medals from did, according to Buettner/Craig. I did, too, come to think of it (at 15, and not military school, though:). [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::Are you extrapolating overall reader behavior from a sample size of 2? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Yes! I'm considering a career change — Rasmussen pollster. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Where is the DUE case for &quot;his father sent him to&quot;? How much RS has discussed this issue? Key word: ''discussed,'' which does not mean merely saying that his father sent him. To the author of the source, that could be an arbitrary alternative to &quot;he entered&quot;, a matter of writing style. Beware of [[WP:OR]] and avoid reading between the lines in sources.{{pb}}I don't think two or three good sources would do it for me. Even ignoring the article bloat. Maybe four good sources. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::How about removing kindergarten and just mentioning that he attended school X through grade 7 and school Y from grade 8 to 12? Current version: :::{{tq2|He grew up with older siblings [[Maryanne Trump Barry|Maryanne]], [[Fred Trump Jr.|Fred Jr.]], and Elizabeth and younger brother [[Robert Trump|Robert]] in the [[Jamaica Estates, Queens|Jamaica Estates]] neighborhood of Queens, and attended the private [[Kew-Forest School]] from kindergarten through seventh grade.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA33 33]}}&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Schwartzman|first1=Paul|last2=Miller|first2=Michael E.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html|title=Confident. Incorrigible. Bully: Little Donny was a lot like candidate Donald Trump|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 22, 2016|access-date=June 2, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/us/politics/donald-trumps-old-queens-neighborhood-now-a-melting-pot-was-seen-as-a-cloister.html|title=Donald Trump's Old Queens Neighborhood Contrasts With the Diverse Area Around It|first=Jason|last=Horowitz|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=September 22, 2015|access-date=November 7, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; At age 13, he entered the [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA38 38]}}}} ::Proposed version: :::{{tq2|He grew up with older siblings [[Maryanne Trump Barry|Maryanne]], [[Fred Trump Jr.|Fred Jr.]], and Elizabeth and younger brother [[Robert Trump|Robert]] in the [[Jamaica Estates, Queens|Jamaica Estates]] neighborhood of Queens.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/us/politics/donald-trumps-old-queens-neighborhood-now-a-melting-pot-was-seen-as-a-cloister.html|title=Donald Trump's Old Queens Neighborhood Contrasts With the Diverse Area Around It|first=Jason|last=Horowitz|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=September 22, 2015|access-date=November 7, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; He attended the private [[Kew-Forest School]] through seventh grade{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA33 33]}}&lt;ref name=&quot;bully&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Schwartzman|first1=Paul|last2=Miller|first2=Michael E.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html|title=Confident. Incorrigible. Bully: Little Donny was a lot like candidate Donald Trump|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 22, 2016|access-date=June 2, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; and [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school, from eighth through twelfth grade.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA38 38]}}&lt;ref name=&quot;bully&quot;/&gt;}} ::This may be my bias talking, but &quot;entered the New York Military Academy&quot; has just a whiff of achievement, such as being admitted to [[United States Military Academy|West Point]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::I can't detect any such sense of achievement. Entering a school seems to me to be completely equvalent to &quot;began attending&quot;. I also don't see it as distinguishing the manner of entry (personal choice, parental choice, or simply iving in the district).--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 16:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::Sorry, but [[WP:NOR|your interpretation is irrelevant here]], {{tq|bias talking}} or otherwise. You are going beyond &quot;editorial judgment&quot; in my opinion. Show me the requested DUE case if you want my support. At this moment, I'd be happy with merely removing the &quot;the&quot; per above. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::For at least seven years, the sentence read (bolding added by me): {{tq|'''At age 13, he was enrolled''' at the New York Military Academy, a private boarding school,[6] and in 1964, '''he enrolled''' at Fordham University.}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1213766421 This edit] on March 15, 2024, changed it with the editsum &quot;ce&quot;. IMO, it changed the meaning. I didn’t notice it among all the other edits at the time. I only noticed it now because I’m reading Buettner/Craig’s &quot;Lucky Loser&quot;. OR? Sure, if reading RS and forming an opinion is the definition of OR. It’s a tad annoying when every source I found says &quot;he was sent&quot; or similar wording, and there doesn’t seem to be a single source for &quot;he entered&quot; (annoying enough for me to take my mind off next Tuesday and spend half an hour tracking the sentence on the Wayback Machine{{Oldsmiley|roll}}). ::::*[https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html Kranish/Fisher]: &quot;When Donald was 13, his father abruptly sent him to a military boarding school, where instructors struck him if he misbehaved and the requirements included daily inspections and strict curfews. 'He was essentially banished from the family home,' said his biographer, Michael D’Antonio.&quot; ::::*Buettner/Craig, pg. 63: &quot;But Fred had reached his limit with Donald. He sent him to a boarding school, a military academy north of the city.&quot; ::::*[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/classroom/daily-news-lessons/2016/07/donald-trumps-early-years-from-trouble-making-teen-to-military-school-star PBD]: &quot;His family eventually sent him to military school in upstate New York&quot;. ::::*[https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/09/us/politics/donald-trump-likens-his-schooling-to-military-service-in-book.html NYT]: &quot;Mr. Trump said his experience at the New York Military Academy, an expensive prep school where his parents had sent him to correct poor behavior, gave him 'more training militarily than a lot of the guys that go into the military'.&quot; ::::*[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/grab-that-record-how-trumps-high-school-transcript-was-hidden/2019/03/05/8815b7b8-3c61-11e9-aaae-69364b2ed137_story.html WaPo]: &quot;Trump spent five years at the military academy, starting in the fall of 1959, after his father — having concluded that his son, then in the seventh grade, needed a more discipline-focused setting — removed him from his Queens private school and sent him Upstate to NYMA.&quot; [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{tq|OR? Sure, if reading RS and forming an opinion is the definition of OR.}} 'Twas OR ''before'' you presented this DUE case. Now it isn't. [[In-joke|I must be from Missouri]]. Ok, you have my support for &quot;his father sent him to&quot;. And remove that damned &quot;the&quot; in the prose, per above, pending a change at [[New York Military Academy]]. Please and thank you. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC) Making sure this isn't archived — someone started another discussion (Inclusion of release of grades). [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:02, 11 November 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} == Please re-write the entire first section. == I have read more than 10,000 biographical articles in Wikipedia, and I haven't seen a single article which is written in a more biased, and pessimistic tone than [[Donald Trump]]. Please be professional and at least re-write the entire first section again in a more neutral tone. The entire world is reading this article and it must be written professionally. Thank you. [[User:Nir007H|Nir007H]] ([[User talk:Nir007H|talk]]) 10:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I agree. Its important to mention these things, but the bias on both this page and the election page as well as his campaign page, is widespread. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 10:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :How? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::Because all of them have paragraphs upon paragraphs regarding many '''allegations''', many of which Trump himself has denied. They also excessively refer him to [[Fascism]], and provide far-left and often non-reliable sources for these. Kamala Harris and Joe Biden have their fair bit of criticism, but this is rarely mentioned on their pages and when it is, its usually reverted or downplayed due to 'non reliable sourcing'. Keeping in mind Fox and the like should be considered as reliable as CNN and the like. Its overall quite biased. Dont get me wrong, these things need to be mentioned, but their absolutely has to be more weighting as to criticism of Trump and his Democrat opponents. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 10:28, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::Also to quickly add to this, it needs to be mentioned more that '''Trump has denied [[Project 2025]]'''. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 10:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::See [[WP:MANDY]]. The sources are what we go with, not Trump's own claims. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 10:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Left sources that go against what the topic at hand himself said? Wikipedia can be interesting sometimes. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 11:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Again, [[WP:MANDY]] and [[WP:PRIMARY]] are why we prioritise independent sources. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 13:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Completely agree with these criticisms of the article. Please see my added topic which includes three edit requests, for some proposed changes to the opening section. [[User:Neutral Editor 645|Neutral Editor 645]] ([[User talk:Neutral Editor 645|talk]]) 10:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I think that based on current consensus number 61, that you should review this link: [[Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias]]. (Not 100% sure though, so I will leave this thread open.) --[[User:Super Goku V|Super Goku V]] ([[User talk:Super Goku V|talk]]) 10:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Yeah. I hate Trump and am sad that he won, but this lead is just too much. It discredits Wikipedia's encyclopedic tone for the regular user. At least add a few positive things. [[User:Lucafrehley|Lucafrehley]] ([[User talk:Lucafrehley|talk]]) 10:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::Find some. We can't include things that don't exist.--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 11:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::Jesus you are literally a wikipedia editor. Your bias is what we do not need on wikipedia. :::For example we could add things like: :::The First Step Act, signed in 2018, aimed to reform the federal prison system by reducing sentences for non-violent offenders, increasing funding for rehabilitation programs, and reducing the three-strike rule’s penalty. :::the VA MISSION Act, allowing veterans more access to private healthcare and aimed at improving the VA's efficiency and accountability. :::Operation Warp Speed facilitated the rapid development, manufacturing, and distribution of COVID-19 vaccines, which reached the public in record time. :::just to name a few [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 11:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::As I pointed out in my own topic, this is not about adding &quot;positive things&quot;. Trump won an election in 2016 which was widely reported from reliable sources as a complete surprise. Those reliable sources tried to understand why people voted for him. The lead has no direct mention of why he won. While having mention of Russian interference and protests. :::This has nothing to do with things being positive or negative, there is a lack of social analysis that doesn't help to present a complex BLP. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 15:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I agree. I have never seen an article of this scale be so obviously biased and favored against its subject. This bias becomes even more distinguishable when you compare it to other articles such as [[Joe Biden]], who has been heavily criticized even by people on the left. For example, he faced a ton of criticism for the [[2020–2021 U.S. troop withdrawal from Afghanistan|withdrawal from Afganistan]] ([https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/afghanistan-joe-biden-donald-trump-kabul-politics/index.html CNN], [https://www.msnbc.com/the-week/watch/pres-biden-faces-criticism-for-afghanistan-withdrawal-119203397970 MSNBC], [https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/biden-s-afghanistan-withdrawal-speech-missed-something-important-n1276918 MSNBC again], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/afghanistan-withdrawal-republicans-house-report-biden-white-house/ CBS], [https://www.npr.org/2024/09/08/nx-s1-5105345/afghanistan-withdrawal-congress-report-trump-biden-harris, NPR], [https://apnews.com/article/house-republicans-afghanistan-withdrawal-kabul-abbey-gate-cdf9578d3fef6201ee44fafb5f5d5acd Associative Press], [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/us/politics/afghanistan-withdrawal-congress.html NYT], etc), yet that is nowhere to be found in the lead. Meanwhile, Trump's lead section will mention every bad thing he did, as well as the opinions of his non-supporters. The opinions of those who support him are not even mentioned. It just comes across as completely lacking integrity. ([[User talk:Not0nshoree|Discuss]] [[User:Not0nshoree|'''''0nshore's''''']] [[Special:contributions/Not0nshoree|contributions!!!]]) 17:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::I would not define it as &quot;biased&quot;, those info could be considered notable. But it is surelly tone deaf in trying to give social context to Trump success. Poor writing that actually doesn't even give a change to complex social criticism, for which there are many reliable reportings even from the same major US newspapers used in the current &quot;fact checked&quot; style. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 18:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Nobody rewrites entire first sections (leads). That isn't how Wikipedia works, and Trump would be dead long before we reached a consensus on such a rewrite. See [[Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::yea, I agree on that, a substantial rewrite is not happening soon. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 18:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :This entire article needs re-written, but the introduction is a total disaster. Even aside from the partisan hackery, it is a hodgepodge of incoherent sentences that look like (and probably were) added disjointedly as time went on with little to no continuity with each other. Most of them are factoids that are irrelevant to a high altitude summary of the man's life and achievements. Embarrassing. [[User:The Pittsburgher|The Pittsburgher]] ([[User talk:The Pittsburgher|talk]]) 15:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :Specific suggestions, please. It's nigh impossible to rewrite an entire lead section to everyone's liking. Simple saying 'rewrite the entire lead' isn't going to get us anywhere. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 15:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :The idea that a mythical &quot;unbiased&quot; lead section could exist that literally every Wikipedia would agree upon for such a polarizing political figure is absurd and preposterous. People act like shouting &quot;bias&quot;! is some kind of objective statement when it is essentially entirely subjective opinion. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 03:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ping|Nir007H}} There's only one way to get a re-write. You gotta put forward a proposal &amp; see if it will get a consensus. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 03:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :I may be drawn and quartered for speaking this heresy. I've long felt Wikipedia content policies are sufficiently vague, complex, nuanced, and self-contradictory as to be extremely vulnerable to the biases that we all have (anybody who claims to be without bias is either lying or completely lacking in self-awareness). That the policies prevent the effects of those biases is largely an illusion and a mass self-delusion. I've advocated massive overhaul of policy to simplify and streamline, and the silence has been deafening. Wikipedia's system of self-selected self-governance simply lacks the capacity for such massive change, and the [[WP:Wikimedia Foundation|Wikimedia Foundation]] will never intervene while Wikipedia is the most popular free encyclopedia on the web.{{pb}}If this article has been dominated by anti-Trump editors, the solution is more pro-Trump editors, people who are prepared to take the time to learn the policies and how to use them. [[WP:CONSENSUS]] is ''everything'' at Wikipedia. I've been saying this for many years and it seems to me a large majority of pro-Trumpers lack the energy for anything but arm-waving rants about fake news and the resulting fake &lt;del&gt;encyclopedia&lt;/del&gt; &lt;ins&gt;encyclopedia (a lazy intellectual cop-out)&lt;/ins&gt;&amp;mdash;merely following their leader's example. I say quit &lt;del&gt;whining&lt;/del&gt; &lt;ins&gt;whining, put on your big boy pants,&lt;/ins&gt; and do something that might have some effect. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC) Edited after replies 23:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{tq| &quot;It seems to me a large majority of pro-Trumpers lack the energy for anything but arm-waving rants about fake news and the resulting fake encyclopedia—merely following their leader's example.&quot;}} An astute observation that actually reveals the root of the problem: That's all they do because that's all there is to back up their POV. The lead is a dry restatement of dull facts, it only appears unflattering because the man's behavior has been consistently and objectively unflattering. [[User:Largely Legible Layman|Largely Legible Layman]] ([[User talk:Largely Legible Layman|talk]]) 16:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::I’d say it’s more to do with the polarisation of the American media, and one end/side being deprecated on Wikipedia. [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 16:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :'''Comment''' I generally stay far away from Trump related articles because of my extremely strong prejudices against the man. But as much as it pains me to say this, I think the lead is problematic. It reads like it was written by the DNC. Most of what is in there belongs in the article. But not all of it belongs in the lead. Clearly I'm not the only one with these concerns as there are multiple editors, in multiple threads on this page raising similar concerns. If the article wasn't linked on the main page right now, I'd seriously consider slapping an NPOV tag on it. Tone matters. The lead reads like an indictment. The laundry list of everything the man has ever been accused of is UNDUE and should be condensed into more general statement noting his controversial history, statements, legal issues etc. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 05:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::the problem is not the list of &quot;negative&quot; actions, which could maybe be condensed just to achieve a better lenght, the problem is that the lead completelly fails to convey why Trump is popular, how he got to power etc etc. It sounds tone deaf and devoided of social analysis. Look at the Hitler lead (not a comparison between individuals) and you can see how it can be done properly. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::I think that's a very good analysis. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 15:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I suspect that the lead as it is in part resulted from having too many cooks in the kitchen. Is there one person who can draft a lead for Trump based on the structure of Hitler's lead for others to review? &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The current structure seems decent to me for the time being, @[[User:Goszei|Goszei]] is [[Talk:Donald Trump#c-Goszei-20241107220400-Muboshgu-20241107215600|pointing out]] a good and clear path forward regarding content that should be added. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 21:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::It’d be so good if this article were actually educational [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 21:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Agree that this is the best step forward. [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 16:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :Support [[User:Castlemore7|Castlemore7]] ([[User talk:Castlemore7|talk]]) 14:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :I can imagine you counting the biographical articles you read like pushups &quot;9,998..9,999...10,000! Now I can finally say I have read 10,000 of those! [[Special:Contributions/68.57.163.100|68.57.163.100]] ([[User talk:68.57.163.100|talk]]) 04:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC) == lead is too long == lead is too long as it contains more than 4 para. Can we make it short ? [[User:Astropulse|Astropulse]] ([[User talk:Astropulse|talk]]) 14:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :this is by editorial design. the reality is that when everything is important, nothing is important. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 14:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::there are lot of other presidents and prominent article - where we have managed to put most important things in 4 para. 4 para is more than enough and everything else should be in body [[User:Astropulse|Astropulse]] ([[User talk:Astropulse|talk]]) 14:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::if you've a suggestion for something to cut then do so. waving arms and saying 'its too long, make it shorter' is a useless comment. [[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] ([[User talk:ValarianB|talk]]) 14:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I cut the last para. someone reverted it. Lets start by removing it [[User:Astropulse|Astropulse]] ([[User talk:Astropulse|talk]]) 15:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Why that? Why remove that he has won the election and is president elect? How does that accomplish anything? [[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] Reporting a problem and discussing it on the talk page is far from &quot;useless&quot;. Please [[WP:Assume good faith]]. If you want another editor to elaborate, a question could be asked without dismissing their contribution as useless. For example, &quot;if you've a suggestion for something to cut then do so. Which part(s) of the lead in particular do you think should be trimmed?&quot; That would be a more constructive rather than dismissive contribution. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Valarian did not say that discussing the problem is &quot;useless&quot;. They said that not being specific is &quot;useless&quot;. This lead clearly needs to be cut severely, and we need specific proposals for how to do it. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::You agree that the lead is too long. So saying 'its too long, make it shorter' was a correct analysis of the situation and the start of a discussion, not a &quot;useless&quot; comment. Other editors were actively adding to the bloated lead instead of doing what Astropulse did and attempting to discuss the problem on the talk page. Again, if another editor wants an editor to elaborate, that can be requested in a constructive rather than dismissive way. Calling other editors' comments &quot;useless&quot; without reason is not [[WP:Civil]]. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 22:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :I agree the lead is overly long. Already 7 paragraphs and he hasn't even been inaugurated for his second term yet. Checking other US presidents' articles, they generally have 4, at a push 5, paragraphs. Overloading the lead for Trump's article is an example of [[WP:Recentism]]. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 15:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I have attempted a bold restructuring of the lead, including some additions and removals of information, in these edits: [[Special:Diff/1255792425/1255793186]]. I understand that some elements of it may conflict with prior consensus, but as editors point out above this lead is a severe example of recentism. A lot more material is sure to come with his second term in office, which will expand the lead even further, so we should try to cut it down along the general lines of my edit. What do other editors think? — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 18:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Yes, the lead is disgracefully bloated. Compare it to our article for [[Joe Biden]], which has a neat and concise lead of four paragraphs. What makes Trump any different? [[WP:Summary style]] seems to have been chucked out the window. ~ [[User:HAL333|&lt;span style=&quot;background:red; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid red;&quot;&gt;'''HAL'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:HAL333|&lt;span style=&quot;background:navy; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid red;&quot;&gt;'''333'''&lt;/span&gt;]] '''(VOTE!)''' 18:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::With you on summary style, and you're far from the first person to say that (although usually applied to the body). Stick around and help make it so! &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::It feels already much better than before. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 22:31, 6 November 2024 (UTC) It seems an attempt was made to shorten the lead and the template was removed, then the content was restored to bloat the lead again but the template was not restored. The documentation of [[Template:Lead too long]] speaks of a 250 to 400 word standard. The lead section of this article is currently over 650 words! Trying to fix the problem of too many paragraphs by combining the excess paragraphs into gigantic paragraphs doesn't address the issue. Trump still hasn't even been inaugurated for his second term but the lead is substantially longer than other presidents. By my count, Trump's lead currently contains almost 1,000 more characters than FDR's lead, a man who was in office for 12 YEARS and is one of the most influential presidents in American history! This is purely recentism, we need to apply the [[WP:20YEARTEST]]. *For a start, the lead mentions &quot;After a series of business failures in the late 1990s ... He and his [...] six business bankruptcies.&quot; Are these separate events, or were some the bankruptcies during the 1990s? Couldn't these lines be combined in some way? [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 23:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :There are two sentences in the lead in particular which are not &quot;protected&quot; by standing consensus, and which editors have expressed an interest in cutting in various threads on this talk page: :*&quot;He and his businesses have been involved in more than 4,000 legal actions, including six business bankruptcies.&quot; :*&quot;The Mueller investigation later determined that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help Trump.&quot; :There is also room for trimming in other areas (why say &quot;racially charged&quot; when it is just a soft euphemism for &quot;racist&quot;, for instance), though I have seen some editors reverting these efforts for unknown reasons. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 00:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::I agree that those two are the two phrases that feels most out of place on lead. But to remove them there is surelly a need for two separates RfC. I also have a feeling the Russian interference will be preserved by an RfC, but it is interesting to see motivations for it. I guess that for american politics that is a major fact. ::I also agree on the racist part. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::To be even more clear, I find the paragraph about his presidency (4th) and about his trials and attempt to overturn (5th) satysfying. :::The issues are on second paragraph (not making a clear connection between his business empire and his shift to politic, or a misleading connection with his business legal actions) and on third paragraph (being extremelly vague and indirect to why he won) [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::Agreed. The lead's scope in general still hasn't adjusted to the election results. ::Consensus on this talk page seems to be that he was a failed, nepotistic businessman turned reality TV host, who won the 2016 election by fluke and Russian hacking. Then he became a failed insurrectionist in 2020 and found guilty of various crimes, generally an unelectable madman. Whether that's a right or wrong summary, the lead should adjust to the new development that he was elected for a second term as president. Most prior events become less leadworthy in the face of this expanding scope. ::@[[User:Goszei|Goszei]] Has there been a specific reason in edit summaries as to why we need repetition of the business failures in the second paragraph? [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 11:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == “First convicted felon as president” placement. == The Felony thing in like the opening sentence or second sentence I think is excessive, where it was before was next to the stuff about Stormy Daniel’s/Insirrection/etc. that is more logical, but someone reverted it and added it back to the first part. It’s one of those things where we gotta figure out how to level the weight, there’s a whole part in the lead right now addressing all the stuff so I think that’s fine but I would like to hear some unbiased consensus. [[User:Eg224|Eg224]] ([[User talk:Eg224|talk]]) 22:00, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Editors can argue DUE or UNDUE all day long, but the policy is sufficiently vague that, in reality, it comes down to how much one hates/loves Trump and how much they let that affect their Wikipedia editing. I hate Trump immensely (making me just a ''terrible'' person, probably possessed by demons) but I don't let it affect my editing. And this just feels like POV-pushing that high in the lead. I'm happy with it where it is at this moment, in what is currently the fourth paragraph of the lead. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::Yeah, I think it’s perfect. definitely feels biased to have it in the opening, the first president without prior experience isn’t as much so. I think that’s alright since it compares him to past Presidents in the next part too, and is talking about being the 45th/47th president [[User:Eg224|Eg224]] ([[User talk:Eg224|talk]]) 22:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::I believe you are making a mistake. He can not be labeled a &quot;convicted felon&quot; as long as his appeals processes are unconcluded. The fact that courts have granted the appeals indicates that they believe he has a chance of having the rulings reversed. [[Special:Contributions/99.33.126.209|99.33.126.209]] ([[User talk:99.33.126.209|talk]]) 05:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I believe you are mistaken. [[WP:BLPCRIME]]: &quot;A living person accused of a crime is [[presumption of innocence|presumed innocent]] until convicted by a court of law.&quot; '''NOT:''' &quot;A living person accused of a crime is [[presumption of innocence|presumed innocent]] until convicted by a court of law and all available appeals have been exhausted.&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Look, the facts are that Trumpty-Dumpty being convicted on felony counts will never be as important as his presidencies. His political career will be the most important thing to impart, not the tax evasion or fraud or whatever the hell it was NY prosecuted him for. Not to say that it isn't important enough to be mentioned in like the fourth paragraph, but his political career is the most important thing to note. Hate to get all [[Orwell]] on ya'll, but [[some animals are more equal than others]]. &lt;span style=&quot;background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;&quot;&gt;[[User:BarntToust|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7b68ee;&quot;&gt;Barnt&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:BarntToust|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#483d8b;&quot;&gt;Toust&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::A person becomes a convicted felon the instant the conviction is handed down. Sentencing does not matter. Appeals do not matter. The only criterion for &quot;convicted&quot; is the conviction itself. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 15:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC) The weight and emphasis given to facts in the lede should reflect that given in the body. Given the weighting currently seen in the body, a high placement is appropriate. If editors want to move it down, they should contest the weighting given in the body. That is the place to evaluate DUE/UNDUE. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :Thought experiment, not an actual proposal: (1) Go through the lead and make a list of the discrete topics therein. (2) Find the related body content for each item and count the words therein (i.e., weight), updating your list with those numbers. (3) Sort the list by descending word count. (4) Restructure the lead according to your sorted list.{{pb}}I think you'll find that your new lead lacks all structure and organization. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::It's true that the lede serves functions beyond being a weighted summary (e.g. contextualizing the subject, establishing notability) which gives it some structure and organization. I did intend to sidestep the wordcount weighting critique by mentioning emphasis, e.g. whether a topic is given its own heading, how high in the article/section it is, whether it is a summary or example as well as just the importance the article ascribes. ::On my broader point, what do you understand as the relationship between the lede and body re; [[WP:DUE]]? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::I don't. Frankly I think you're putting too fine a point on it, considering all the other issues going unaddressed, such as article length. We've been discussing that for years without significant progress. We need to get the body into summary style, gutting much of it, and we need more smart guys like you to help with that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:03, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Agreed that length is a very big issue. I also think if editors want to focus on other issues, such as emphasis, they should do it in a different way. ::::I'm working on [[Public image of Donald Trump]] at the moment before summarizing it in this article, I'll be interested to see how that goes before taking on a meatier section. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC) == 54. &quot;Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history.&quot; == A brief consideration: The sentence should clarify who these &quot;historians and scholars&quot; are by identifying the institution that represents them collectively or at least their nationality, per [[WP:WIKIVOICE]], [[WP:GLOBALIZE]], and [[WP:GLOBAL]]. We might also consider adding a footnote to mention the historians... Additionally, the sentence should also specify that this is an assessment of the [[First presidency of Donald Trump|first presidency]], rather than the incoming one, per [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]]. [[User:Pantarch|Pantarch]] ([[User talk:Pantarch|talk]]) 11:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :This is discussed in the body of the article along with links to additional info. Too much detail for the lead. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 11:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::Better to have many details than inaccurate ones. The sentence make an absolute claim, which is inconsistent with Wikipedia's policies. Whereas, regarding my other point, specifying 'first presidency' requires only two words. [[User:Pantarch|Pantarch]] ([[User talk:Pantarch|talk]]) 12:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::I disagree. Trump is in a bit of a unique situation (two non-consecutive terms in a period that is contemporary with Wikipedia). I think this sentence in the lede should be rewritten to clarify that the surveys and assessments so far so far were purely based on his first term as president. That of course can be changed again when there's a new ranking that explicitly considers his second term. ::Compare also to the [[Joe Biden]] article, where it has been generally considered too early to include the survey rankings until the end of his presidency. I don't think leaving them out here completely is the right way to handle it, but at the very least that part of the lede needs clarification. ::If that would be too much detail, I would even argue to remove it from the lede altogether for now until the end of his second term instead of keeping the current wording. [[Special:Contributions/2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B|2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B]] ([[User talk:2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B|talk]]) 18:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::I agree this is an uncited comment and should be removed , but since it is under strict protection that can not be done by anyone outside of a very small group, so it will remain until someone with this ability decides to do it. [[User:Washusama|Washusama]] ([[User talk:Washusama|talk]]) 06:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If we're removing &quot;uncited comments&quot; from the lead, we're deleting the lead. We cite in the body and summarize the body in the lead. See [[Donald Trump#Scholarly]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:02, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::When his second term starts we can change it to specify that it was his first term being evaluated. Until then, it is blatantly obvious due to the fact that it is the only term he has had. Your assumption that readers are too stupid to understand this is insulting. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 15:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{tq|we can change it}} Am I missing something, or is &quot;'''After his first term,''' scholars and historians ranked Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history.&quot; sufficiently clear on that point? The first four words were just added the other day, after a discussion which is linked in [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 54, per established process. How could the assessments apply to his second term if they were made after his first term? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:08, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I just think this sentence should just be removed entirely. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) &lt;!--Template:Undated--&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 07:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ::[[Wikipedia:I just don't like it]] applies. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::I just do not think a bunch of biased historians claiming something way too early is that important or too good for a Wikipedia article. I don't even think opinions should be in the lead to begin with. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) 09:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Everyone is biased, there's no such thing as an &quot;unbiased&quot; person. You are free to review the statement and source/sources provided and say &quot;they're a bunch of left wing partisan hacks and I don't believe them&quot;. That doesn't mean the views of people who study history and review historical evidence shouldn't be here. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{bcc|331dot}}I don't think this aligns with Wikipedia's [[WP:PAGS|policies and guidelines]]. [[WP:Reliable sources]] does draw a distinction between [[WP:BIASED|biased and non-biased sources]], and [[WP:SOURCE|Wikipedia:Verifiability]] includes types of creators (such as political scientists) as a [[WP:SOURCE|type of source]]. With biased sources, certain considerations must be made. This all said, the bias, and potentially its impacts, must be verifiable rather than simply asserted. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 09:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I have no problem with biases and opinions being in Wikipedia pages. They are in Wikipedia pages all the time. From reviews of various media to even awards given to people. I only have a problem when they are in the lead and given authority. Like how it is on this article right now. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) 17:00, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::: I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;given authority&quot;, but these are scholarly assessments in very reliable sources, and they carry with them whatever authority that implies. It's a significant fact about him that belongs in the lead. Only someone who is ignorant of his character and actions and believes the whitewashing from unreliable sources would doubt these scholarly assessments. The statement is accurate and properly attributed. It's okay. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) (PING me) ::::::: Those are your opinions. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) 17:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC) == Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead == It is natural that a large-scale real estate developer in the industry for decades would face a high number of lawsuits. It is worth mentioning in the body, but not worth mentioning in the lead. In the lead, the apparent purpose of this sentence is to portray Trump as a bad businessman, despite him becoming a billionaire and acquiring some of the most iconic properties in NYC. We already mention his &quot;business failures&quot; in the 1990s and shift to side ventures; I recommend removing the sentence on lawsuits, and then changing &quot;business failures&quot; to &quot;bankruptcies&quot; to be more clear. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :Source for any other land developer who has faced this number, and kind of lawsuit please? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::Looking into it, according to [https://www.usatoday.com/pages/interactives/trump-lawsuits/] close to half of the 4,000 suits were related to his casino, most of which were &quot;suits against gamblers who had credit at Trump-connected casinos and failed to pay their debts&quot;. Trump was the plaintiff in these (not the defendant), and won most of them according to the data. Another big chunk, larger than those related to his real estate, was personal injury, which is again expected when running a large number of commercial properties. He had about 600 real estate suits over a period of 40 years. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::Not what I asked, and does not support what you said. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :His involvement in litigation is a key part of Trump's biography. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::From what I posted above, a lot of the suits just seem like the cost of doing business in a litigious industry for 40 years; our article on it, [[Personal and business legal affairs of Donald Trump]], acknowledges that Trump won 92% of the suits. We have a lot in the lead about his later legal problems, but we shouldn't generalize that backwards to his business career. He was much better known for his Atlantic City casino bankruptcies than something like Trump University before 2015. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::Before 2015, Trump wasn't publicly known as &quot;that guy who got sued a lot&quot;, but as a fairly successful real estate developer who faced high-profile bankruptcies and later built a brand around his name. This is what we should convey to the reader. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 18:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::I completelly agree with Goszei here, it's a repetition that is misleading, unnecessary, and, even more important, take up space that could be used to describe how his real estate work connects to his rise to power. Goszei explained it to me in another discussion and is not conveyed properly in the current lead. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 18:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::But his dishonesty also helps explain his rise to power. Again we need sources saying this is not unusual, not editors OR. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 18:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::::You interpreting that sentence as &quot;Trump gained his wealth through dishonesty&quot; is complete POV and exactly what I am referring to when I said the figure alone misleads readers. As I showed above, the reality is more complex (the vast majority of the suits weren't related to any kind of fraud on Trump's part, and he won 92% of them). — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 19:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Agreed. That should definitely go. The whole business part of the lead is full of useless trivia. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 22:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::We have a whole page on it: [[Business career of Donald Trump]]. It is only appropriate for it to be at least a sentence in the lead of his bio. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 22:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::We should include details on his business career insofar as it explains to readers how Trump became rich (&quot;building and renovating skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses&quot;) and became a household name (licensing his name and hosting ''The Apprentice''), which are directly relevant to his rise to political power. Mentioning the number of lawsuits he had is not relevant to this purpose. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Agree this sentence in the lead should be removed. [[User:Basil the Bat Lord|Basil the Bat Lord]] ([[User talk:Basil the Bat Lord|talk]]) 05:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::When I talk about an edit, I am implying by default it coming from RS. :::::I just think that the connection between him building businnes in NY and his rise to power should be made more explicit, in the case that it is supported by RS. Just talking about golf courses and hotel doesn't make it clear enough. And the number of lawsuits further make it more misleading because it seems like he went to politics because he was poor and failing. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}} Hadn't noticed this discussion — two days after the election, all hell breaking loose in the article and on this talk page. Trump's business failures, including the bankruptcies, are a defining part of his biography and lead-worthy. Since you mentioned casinos and gamblers: it's not a sign of great business acumen when you build a casino next door to your own casino and poach patrons from yourself or when you give credit to patrons so that they gamble with our own money. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tq|when you give credit to patrons so that they gamble with our own money}}. This is established practice in the gambling industry, anyone who has tried to watch a sporting event recently has been bombarded with 'free bet' ads. The calculation being that most people are losers and getting them in the door is more valuable to the casino/sportsbook than the value of the credit/'free bet'. Regardless, declaring a casino or other business bankrupt isn't that relevant to the article that it should have multiple lines in the lead of an article about a two-term president. We can surely summarise that business failure/bankruptcies content in one line. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 11:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :To the uninitiated reader, this sentence suggests that Trump by the time of his first presidential run was a failed businessman who was absolutely drowning in lawsuits. However, a good chunk of Trump's popularity in 2016 came from the widespread view that he was a successful real estate mogul, and an icon of the &quot;glory days&quot; of American capitalism in the 1980s. The truth of course is more nuanced (we have many, many words in the article on questions about his true net worth, for example), and I understand the impulse to hint that his business career wasn't as spotless as people perceived, but this specific fact just misleads the reader. We don't even mention his billionaire status in the lead, or have a few words about his changing political affiliations, both of which are far more relevant to understanding his &quot;pitch&quot; to the American public and rise. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 03:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::Again, Goszei is right. The current formulation is misleading. It is also inderectly suggesting that Trump went to politics because he was failing in business. All of this crucially misses the points of his political rise. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::I had not read the current new version of the lead, I did now. It is very good on its shortening on the informations and critiques. I wouldn't cut out anything else at this point. :::But it is still missing any kind of information (both contextual and direct) about how and why Trump became popular as a politician. They can all find their place on the second paragraph, a couple of sentences could be enough. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::For exemple, it's a shame that those two diffs [[Https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&amp;oldid=1257901326|two]] [[Https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&amp;oldid=1257905963|diffs]] from Goszei didn't stand. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:28, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Trump wasn't a billionaire in the 80s, the article doesn't make that claim, and, if there are any reliable sources for the claim, Goszei should have added the material and the sources to the body. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Interesting, thank you for replying. I have actually took the time to read the body and more in [[Wealth of Donald Trump]]. It basically looks like he lied in tax returns to downplay his worth, and boosting his net worth to the public to increase his popularity. Before the 2016 election, there are multiple sources that estimate him at around 2-3 billions. It's a complex dinamic of debt and wealth that could be wrote out better in the lead, especially if it relates to his political rise. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::This is a fair point. The lead has changed a lot (in a positive direction) over the last few days, and I think I am satisfied with just mentioning that Trump &quot;focused on luxury accommodation&quot; (shortened from the previous list of &quot;skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses&quot;) because it gets across the personal brand of wealth and luxury that he was well-known for, without treading into the contentious territory about his net worth. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 19:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Personally I do not think that the second paragraph is satysfying as is regarding his business aspect. There is something missing to outline how the business relates to his political career. Your latest additions are spot on. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I mean the connection is there, luxury (mainly in NY?) and a succesfull tv show. But I actually don't know if that's what made him able to launch his campaign, also why the idea of even trying it arose. I hoped to find some analysis of it that at least could lead to a sentence that explains the connection, but maybe there isn't. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ===Broader critique of the lead and article=== To be honest, I believe content like this in this lead, as well as a continued focus on it within the article, represents us sticking our heads in the sand as editors. We are now far beyond the 2016 election, when points like this were used to attack Trump by his political opponents, and have entered a stage where he is bringing about a generational re-alignment in American politics. This lead, this article, and this encyclopedia should seek to clearly explain ''why'' Trump appealed to the electorate in 2016 and why he continues to do so, and explain the roots of his movement, which has only grown over the last 8 years. In many places, we miss the forest for the trees: as many political scientists and historians have concluded, Trump won not because he was racist and his voters were too, but because his message exploited an absence within the political establishment of anyone speaking to the interests of the population. We need to weave his ascendancy together with the facts of 40 years of stagnant wages, the financial crash of 2008, the abandonment of the Rust Belt, and the declining living standards of the working class. I write a lot of this up to [[WP:RECENTISM]], but now that he was elected a second time, it is clear that he isn't an aberration but a key figure in U.S. history, and our encyclopedia should reflect this. Perhaps I am asking too much for the nature of this project, but I think this is important, and hope this article improves along these lines in the years of chaos to come. Rant over. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) :That clarifies this for me. We are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and we are not (despite what some believe) his political opponents. We are taking a holistic view of Trump's life and career. He received significant coverage going back to the 1970s. We don't stop talking about past events just because of [[WP:RECENTISM]]. That includes his lawsuits and business failures, as well as the successes. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::A necessary element of taking a holistic view on someone's life is that the view changes with new events, which open new perspectives on what in their life is relevant and what is not. In the narrow sense of editing this article's lead, in my opinion this means focusing on why he gained power in 2016 and now in 2024 and the bases of his mass movement. To me, wasting words on the comparatively trivial matter of his business lawsuits is not part of that overarching goal. If he was just a businessman, yes, but not for who he has become. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 22:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::Fair point. I do believe that the political activities from 2015 on need to be rewritten because of the unavoidable RECENTISM. But, any proper biography of Trump will include his business career, which was substantial and covered in the press and has led him to where he is. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 23:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::More and more RS on the deeper, long-term socio-economic and political trends which I described above are sure to be released and get added to this article. I only ask that editors keep an open mind and adapt to changing conditions within the RS. Much of this article's trivial content, almost all based on nearsighted and shallow analysis of contemporaneous news coverage, will need to be aggressively cut and replaced by the good stuff. Again, this is RECENTISM and will be fixed over time, hopefully sooner rather than later. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 18:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::I could not agree more with Goszei. I have been trying [[Talk:Donald Trump#something feels missing on lead|to say the same]] for a few days. Glad I am not the only one noticing the need for improvement. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 21:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] this and other discussion is where Goszei and others have been trying to argument in favor of a direct addition of the elements you removed from the lead. Goszei found a very concise prose in my opinion, which makes the second paragraph feel more complete and makes the connection to how/why Trump won in the third paragraph. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 23:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC) == Conflict of interest section == &quot;During Trump's term in office, he visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days, one visit for every 3.4 days of his presidency&quot; This includes his private residences, such as Mar-a-lago. This does not necessarily equate to a conflict of interest and should not be in the section. This might be substantial evidence enough for political op-eds, but not Wikipedia. It could be phrased like 'Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties'. In-fact, alot of this article could be written in a manner similar to this. [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C|2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C|talk]]) 07:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :The source does not say &quot;Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties&quot;. It does, however, exactly say &quot;Trump has visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days of his presidency, or one visit every 3.4 days. That means that he has visited on about two days of every week of his presidency.&quot; What you are saying it should be changed to is [[WP:OR]] and potentially [[WP:SYNTH]]. Unless, of course, you can provide a source that directly states it. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd&quot;&gt;SmittenGalaxy&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold&quot;&gt;&amp;#124;&lt;/span&gt; [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-style:italic; color:#000080&quot;&gt;talk!&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::I am having some difficulty parsing this source. The main thrust of mentioning his visits to the private properties is that it was leisure when he said he would be busy, and that it was costly to the taxpayer to have him travel there. It seems to be a slightly unnatural reading to say him visiting a property every 3.4 days constitutes a conflict of interest. Tell me if I'm wrong. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 07:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::It relates to earlier in the paragraph, talking about how he was sued for violation of the [[Domestic Emoluments Clause]] and [[Foreign Emoluments Clause]]. It does read a bit strange when you only read that specific part of the source; it does go on later to explain more about this, so if anything, it should be expanded to include that as opposed to removed. I will however leave that to someone more experienced than me. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd&quot;&gt;SmittenGalaxy&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold&quot;&gt;&amp;#124;&lt;/span&gt; [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-style:italic; color:#000080&quot;&gt;talk!&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I think it's too SYNTHY to use it as evidence of him violating those clauses unless a RS makes that connection. What do you think? Or just slap on a {{context needed}} and leave it at that? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::That's probably the best option for now, if it weren't as late I'd probably go in and rework that section myself. But it seems sufficient to me. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd&quot;&gt;SmittenGalaxy&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold&quot;&gt;&amp;#124;&lt;/span&gt; [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-style:italic; color:#000080&quot;&gt;talk!&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1256116394&amp;oldid=1256116195 Added it in] [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Well, for one thing, he significantly overcharged the Secret Service for using his properties when they had no choice but to be there.[https://www.npr.org/2022/10/17/1129491352/trump-hotels-overcharged-secret-service-agents][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/18/trump-overcharge-secret-service-hotel] &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 14:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thanks for this context. It does seem a bit small-fry compared to the other controversies listed. Why do you think a mention would not be UNDUE? You're more familiar with this page than I. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 15:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Trump overcharging the Secret Service demonstrates his attempts to enrich himself off of the presidency, and there are sources for this throughout the time of his first campaign, presidency, and Biden's presidency. Above I provided a source from 2022 and one from 2024. Here's one from [https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/donald-trump-secret-service-campaign-travel-payments-228553 2016], one from [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41005868 2017], and one from [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/feds-spend-70k-trump-hotel-scotland/story?id=56675168 2018]. It's certainly DUE for a sentence in the body. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Unless I've missed it, none of those sources allege Trump was overcharging. Each just notes that the USSS reimburses private entities for the cost of bringing them around, but the difference in the Trump case is that he typically owns the private planes, hotels, etc, to which the reimbursements are paid. A storm in a teacup. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 22:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Would you kindly briefly summarise the sources you mention and explain how you would use them? Thank you, [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 14:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Deceptive claim and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1256155368 deceptive edit]. The 2022 source is about allegations in a letter by House oversight committee chair, a Democrat. The 2024 source is about a House oversight committee minority report. The minority of Democrats does not represent the committee as a whole. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 19:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Deception is not my intent, nor is it an assumption of good faith in your part to suggest I am trying to deceive anyone. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 23:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::I made no such suggestion. By &quot;deceptive&quot; I mean &quot;misleading&quot;. I have not ascribed any motive, just stated the obvious. AGF works both ways. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 14:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::&quot;Deception&quot; implies intent. There's no AGF on vocabulary, unless English is not your first language. That I do not know. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::Please just stop. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 15:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::When you're more careful in the language you use, I'll stop. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I do think the content you tagged should be removed as improper synthesis, as explained. Removing the tag certainly was not helpful. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 18:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Removal seems in order.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 02:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::What's the synthesis? Is that sources don't use the phrase &quot;conflict of interest&quot;? The Democratic minority report called it [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/18/trump-overcharge-secret-service-hotel &quot;the world’s greatest get-rich-quick scheme&quot;] and discusses the emoluments issue. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::We are talking about Bump's column. I do not see a hook for &quot;conflict of interest&quot; in that source – either explicit or implicit. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 15:45, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Here's a [https://time.com/donald-trumps-suite-of-power/ Time magazine] piece that directly uses the term &quot;conflict of interest&quot; to describe the Trump presidency use of Trump Organization properties. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::Where are you going with this? This sub thread is solely about Bump's column, about the content removed in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1256355950 this edit]. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 17:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::I can't speak to what was in the Bump column as it's paywalled, but I added sourced content about Trump properties being a conflict of interest and it was removed without an explanation, or at least I can't find it. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::I did insert a link to an archived version without the paywall, but it was removed. I understand the page is near the [[WP:PEIS]] limit, but the solution is surely using [[WP:Lua|#invoke]] or such rather than creating accessibility issues? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:13, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::[https://web.archive.org/web/20210125173840/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/20/trumps-presidency-ends-where-so-much-it-was-spent-trump-organization-property/ This] is the link to the archived version. Don't most editors know how to access the [https://web.archive.org/ Wayback Machine] and paste the url of a paywalled article into the text field? [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::::Most? I doubt it. I think that's covered in Wikipedia Editing 302. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 15:39, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::::Muboshgu has waaay more edits than me and is an admin to boot, so I just assumed. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::I'll go with &quot;that's when the wayback machine was down&quot;. Or I just forgot to check it. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC) I added material with RS that made the connection between Trump visits and influence-seekers at his {{tq|private residences}}. They're actually commercial properties where he also maintains a private residence. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC) == 2nd assassination attempt == The Pennsylvania attempt is featured in the article and a link to the page about it is included, but the absence of anything about the 2nd attempt in Florida, including a link to the page for it, is strikingly absent. I'm sure authorized editors will quickly correct this honest oversight. [[Special:Contributions/216.168.91.102|216.168.91.102]] ([[User talk:216.168.91.102|talk]]) 22:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :We don't mention the 2016 incident where someone tried to kill Trump, so I don't see why we need to mention the Florida incident. The only one where Trump was harmed was the Pennsylvania one, so that one seems like the most important one to include. The Florida incident can be mentioned at the article for [[Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign|the 2024 campaign]]. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 15:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC) == Assassination attempts in lede? == Why not a brief mention of the two assassination attempts against Trump in the lede? Surely it's up there in notability with him serving two non-consecutive terms. [[User:Evaporation123|Evaporation123]] ([[User talk:Evaporation123|talk]]) 01:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :There have been more then 2 [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 04:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :I was thinking this earlier today. Feels odd that this is not mentioned. ([[User talk:Not0nshoree|Discuss]] [[User:Not0nshoree|'''''0nshore's''''']] [[Special:contributions/Not0nshoree|contributions!!!]]) 15:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Yes, it was a very important event in Trump's political life, so it's correct to include this information in the lead. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 18:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Popular vote win or loss? &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Last section of lead breaks WIKI policies&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == “winning both the [[List of United States presidential elections by popular vote margin|popular]] and electoral vote” this is from the newest section of the lead he did win the electoral vote but the popular vote is still being counted as of 11/8 11:20 EST he has only a 2.6% lead with millions of votes left to count particularly from California this is assumption and there isn’t any vaild source claiming he did this needs to be removed immediately [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 04:21, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :From the cursory research I've just done, including NBC and NYT, it does appear a popvote loss is within the realm of possibility, so there may be a bit of [[WP:CRYSTAL]] there. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:51, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::Shouldn’t it be removed until then? [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 18:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::Someone may have to do that just to get some eyes on the issue. You don't need prior agreement for a [[WP:BOLD|bold]] edit that does not violate an existing consensus. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :Leave it be, until/if Harris passes him. PS - {{ping|John Bois}} It would be best to first bring this up at [[2024 United States presidential election]], where Trump's pop-vote total is currently bolden, in the infobox. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:John Bois|John Bois]] [[WP:THEHILL]] has [https://thehill.com/homenews/nexstar_media_wire/4976301-when-was-the-last-time-the-republican-party-won-the-popular-vote/ reported] a popular vote win for Trump; however, if it’s not already covered in the body it probably should be added. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 19:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::NBC NYT and AP have not declared it yet [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 19:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've opened [[Talk:2024 United States presidential election#Popular vote total|up a discussion]] at the 2024 election page, about your concerns. Honestly though, most of the networks must have confirmed that there's not enough (currently uncounted) votes left for Harris to overtake Trump, going by the percentage track. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Thank you! [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 04:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I suppose it’s up to editor consensus since we have some reliable sources reporting popular vote victory and some are not. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 19:38, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If there are a few reliable sources claiming it, we should have it in until proven otherwise. There is pretty good confidence/credible info that points that direction. I think [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]] is more of unsubstantiated claims. [[User:MaximusEditor|MaximusEditor]] ([[User talk:MaximusEditor|talk]]) 18:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::There's no harm in waiting for it to be official. California only has 63% reporting at the moment, there are more votes to come that at the very least will make it a narrow margin either way. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 01:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC) == Public image summary style == I mentioned in a thread above that some of the content in #Public image has nothing to do with public image and creates verifiability issues. Having now read the main article, [[Public image of Donald Trump]], I can see this stems from a failure to use [[WP:SUMMARYSTYLE]]. To conform, the lvl3 headings in #Public image should be the lvl2 headings in the main article, not just a spot to throw miscellanea. Such a rewrite would remove discussion of Trump's use of social media and racism, which are likely DUE for this article. I want to discuss where they should go. Keeping them in #Public image isn't an option given the violation of [[WP:Verifiability]]. Best, [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC) [[Talk:Donald Trump#Public Image#Incitement of Violence|Here]] the previous thread. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 21:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :I have made some changes to the organization per the above. The article was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256505959 previously structured]: :'''7 Public''' Image 7.1 Scholarly assessment and public approval surveys 7.2 False or misleading statements 7.3 Promotion of conspiracy theories 7.4 Incitement of violence 7.5 Social media 7.6 Relationship with the press 7.7 Racial views 7.8 Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct 7.9 Popular culture :It is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256522879 now structured]: :'''7 Assessments''' 7.1 Public 7.2 Scholarly :'''8 Political practice''' 8.1 False or misleading statements 8.2 Rhetoric 8.3 Promotion of conspiracy theories 8.4 Social media 8.5 Relationship with the press :'''9 Prejudice''' 9.1 Racial views 9.2 Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct :I have also started a discussion at [[Talk:Racial views of Donald Trump#Changing the title]] which will impact the subheading &quot;Racial views&quot; [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC) == Too many words together, in blue == Forgive me folks. But &quot;[[Second inauguration of Donald Trump|His inauguration as the 47th president]]&quot;, looks terrible. It's a long blue sentence, basically. I attempted to fix this with &quot;[[Second inauguration of Donald Trump|His inauguration]] as the 47th president&quot;. But was reverted. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :{{Ping|GoodDay}} in my opinion it's necessary. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 00:30, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256444346 Your edit] created an [[MOS:EGG]] problem. The article has many links of that length or longer, and the length of the linktext is not our first priority. You might as well change [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|hush money payment to Stormy Daniels]] to [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|hush money payment]] to Stormy Daniels because there's &quot;too much blue&quot;, and I think most editors would oppose that as well. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:45, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::I'm not gonna push this too much, as the lead will change 500+ more times, between now &amp; January 20, 2025. On inauguration day, the whole sentence will be extinct by then. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:48, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{Ping|GoodDay}} the [[Donald Trump]] discussion page is already too long, in my opinion this thread is unnecessary (in my opinion). [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 21:41, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Concluded discussions tend to get archived, after twenty-four hours. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{Ping|GoodDay}} damn, excuse me. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 21:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{Ping|GoodDay}} Only after closure, per consensus 13. Are you withdrawing this? If so, I'll close. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC) {{hat|Off-topic, borderline bullying. Be better. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 01:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC)}} :::Awesome. Please don't start discussions about things that you are not going to push very much. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Please don't tell me what to do. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:52, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Please don't tell ''me'' what to do. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC) {{hab}} == Inclusion of release of grades == I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256544506 removed] &quot;In 2015, Trump's lawyer threatened Trump's colleges, his high school, and the [[College Board]] with legal action if they released his academic records&quot; from the early life section saying it was &quot;undue for this section&quot;. A few hours later, {{u|Farkle Griffen}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256597546 added it back in] with the description &quot;Explained why his academic performance is not known&quot;, not addressing the concern about whether it was [[WP:DUE|giving it too much emphasis]]. Before I removed the text, I did a search of coverage, and found that the issue was very rarely mentioned after it was discovered, and only in passing. Giving it a relatively high amount of attention in the early life section therefore seems inappropriate. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :I disagree [[User:Anonymous8206|Anonymous8206]] ([[User talk:Anonymous8206|talk]]) 00:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Didn't see that it was previously removed, but mentioning academic performance in school is relatively common in Wikipedia articles on biographies of political figures, and it's certainly relevant in a section about academic history; mentioning why this information is not available seems just as relevant. I don't see how a single sentence is too much emphasis. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 00:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|Farkle Griffen}} Could you respond to the issue of coverage not being lasting (applying [[WP:NOTNEWS]] and [[WP:RECENTISM]])? I do believe the Early life section should be expanded; if that happened I would be more likely to support inclusion. Right now however, &quot;one sentence&quot; makes up 20% of Wikipedia's coverage of Trump's early life. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:13, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::To be clear, I'm not that much in favor of keeping it, it just feels like a strange argument to say: &quot;This section is too short... so we should make it shorter.&quot; But to respond to your first sentence, this news went viral around February 2019, which was five (nearly six) years ago; I could be wrong, but I don't think [[WP:NOTNEWS]] and [[WP:RECENTISM]] apply here. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Re Farkle Griffen; it is a strange argument, but the idea is that the article is already very unbalanced against the Early life section, and this would make a negligible change to that imbalance, while the Early life section is very unbalanced towards this event, and removing it would make a significant change to that imbalance. See my reply below for RECENTISM in particular. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{tq|coverage not being lasting}} You seem to be saying we shouldn't keep the content because RS is not still talking about it. That doesn't seem workable, since RS has other things to talk about. RECENTISM? What's recent about something that happened nine years ago? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:00, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The second sentence of RECENTISM says &quot;It is writing without an aim toward a long-term, historical view,&quot; which is how I'm assessing DUE. The best sources for assessing whether biographical details are DUE in this sense are, obviously, biographies, as they are assessing how details fit into a life as a whole. On the other end of the spectrum, the absolute worst sources for this assessment are breaking news sources about a revelation about a biographical detail. As an example, Trump's eligibility for the draft received a lot more coverage than this over a longer time period. But biographies published after the fact treat it as a small issue in his early life overall. These sources are therefore insufficient to show it is DUE. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I'm struggling to imagine writing this article primarily based on published biographies, in which content can't be written or verified without a trip to the library or a book store. Are we to limit editing to editors who are prepared to do that (which would exclude me), or should the rest of us just take the word of those who are?{{pb}}As a practical matter, you're not going to get consensus for reasoning that departs from how editors have operated here for eight years&amp;mdash;unless you have uninvolved closure in which the closer is convinced by your arguments. You may be in the unfortunate position of being far superior to your colleagues. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I won't press this any further, there doesn't seem to be momentum. For my own benefit in determining if material is DUE on this page in the future, would &quot;Coverage across multiple RS is sufficient to suggest inclusion is DUE&quot; be an accurate summary of this discussion? ::::::I will note that high-quality sources that are doing overall evaluations are most beneficial for DUE in creating the bones of the article. Editors still have to put meat on them. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::In my opinion, the article has been dysfunctional in the DUE area for eight years. Some content has been added on the basis of one or two sources and accompanying &quot;editorial judgment&quot; that it's DUE. Other content has been omitted on the basis of 15 sources and accompanying &quot;editorial judgment&quot; that it's UNDUE. It seemed to me that DUE has been more about &quot;editorial judgment&quot; than anything else, which left the article wide open to editor biases. Thankfully, one of the main culprits was recently indefinitely banned from all things Donald Trump (not for that reason but for bad behavior), but they were only one. I can't fix the world. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Based on your experience here, what do you think should be done to help with NPOV? In a similar vein, you mention below that you are looking for arguments beyond editorial judgement, and you later indicated this was met. What was it that convinced you that DUE was met? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{tq|Based on your experience here, what do you think should be done to help with NPOV?}} In a better encyclopedia, ArbCom or WMF would intervene here. That's fantasy at this point, so I don't know what could be done. It's part of why I'm semi-retired. I'm just here for the mental stimulation, for interaction with other smart people (I don't do social media), because I have a talent for efficiency and organization that makes me a good facilitator on this page, and because I have nothing better to do with my time. {{tq|What was it that convinced you that DUE was met?}} Six linked sources and the promise of {{tq|about a dozen others}}, which I took at face value. We can talk about &quot;larger issues&quot; all day long, but we also have to get some work done. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:26, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Thanks for these comments. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:27, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :There's too much &quot;editorial judgment&quot; going on here. Somebody please present a persuasive DUE case for inclusion, based on RS coverage. Absent that, I support the removal. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:58, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::Not sure what DUE has to do with this since this doesn't seem to be a NPOV issue, however, for RS coverage, just going going off the first results on Google, this is mentioned by: [https://time.com/5540152/donald-trump-michael-cohen-academic-records/Lq6 Time Magazine] , [https://apnews.com/article/04f0236264e8427d9995e4de68e62729 AP News], [https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/27/politics/michael-cohen-trump-threaten-school-records/index.html CNN], [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/fordham-university-confirms-cohen-warned-it-not-to-disclose-trumps-grades PBS News], [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/politics/trump-school-grades.html NY Times], and [https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/02/27/cohen-says-he-threatened-schools-over-possible-release-president-trumps-sat-scores-or-grades/ WP], among about a dozen others. Granted, these are news stories, not biographies. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::Unless I'm mistaken, DUE has everything to do with all content. {{tq|Granted, these are news stories, not biographies.}} I'd say 90%+ of the article is based on news stories; that's the nature of the beast. (As I interpret it, NOTNEWS mostly means we don't (or shouldn't) rush to publish breaking news.) Now, since I don't move goalposts, you have persuaded me unless someone can persuasively counter your case by showing how those sources don't support the content. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::AFAIK, &quot;DUE&quot; only refers to [[WP:DUE]], which is a subsection of [[WP:Neutral Point of View]], and only really talks about the due ''weight'' of a ''viewpoint''. Am I wrong? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:19, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::You're right, although DUE tends to be used as a shorthand for all weighting issues. [[WP:PROPORTION]] is more accurate. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Hey, I'm no policy guru; much of it moggles my bind. All I know is that, in practice at this article and others where I've spent significant time, &quot;viewpoint&quot; is a very broad term loosely applied. Why don't you take this specific case to [[WP:NPOVN]] and (with any luck) educate all of us? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:30, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :We need room for obvious reasons. Stuff like this should probably be on the chopping block. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|R. G. Checkers}} Why do you think this is undue? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::We are never going to make significant progress on article size one sentence at a time; might as well try to significantly shrink Lake Erie using buckets while others are pouring water into it with other buckets &lt;/hyperbolic metaphor&gt;. Progress on article size will require gutting large parts of the article, such as much of the detail in &quot;Foreign policy&quot;, moving to summary style. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC) Related discussion at &quot;Wording of sentence on Trump attending New York Military Academy&quot; with more sources, above. Trump has claimed since the 1970s that he [https://web.archive.org/web/20151001054028/https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/business/dealbook/decades-old-questions-over-trumps-wealth-and-education.html graduated at the top of his class] at Wharton and that you had to be a [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-who-often-boasts-of-his-wharton-degree-says-he-was-admitted-to-the-hardest-school-to-get-into-the-college-official-who-reviewed-his-application-recalls-it-differently/2019/07/08/0a4eb414-977a-11e9-830a-21b9b36b64ad_story.html super genius] to be admitted to Wharton in 1966. Both claims were debunked, despite Trump not releasing his records. And in 2019 Michael Cohen turned over the threatening letters Trump had him send to Wharton and his high school. It wasn't just the news of the day, it's been mentioned in probably every Trump biography published since then. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC) As for {{tq|need[ing] room for obvious reasons}}, that's [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]. My crystal ball thinks we'll end up with comparisons between his first and second presidency, resulting in fewer details for the first one. We'll have to wait and see what RS report about the second one. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Thanks {{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}. I've got my copy of [[Trump Revealed]] to see the weighting they place. Their discussion of Trump's grades are quite limited, and only really discussed in the context of Wharton, which makes sense given that was a focus to establish credibility as a businessman. In their discussion of Trump at Wharton, they give an equal amount of value Trump ascribed to the degree, to his draft exemption, his later alumni contributions and how relatively wealth he was compared to the cohort. His education at Wharton covers four pages of the 20 dedicated to his early life. :A lot more of the text is spent discussing his aggression as a child and teen; this should be included before his grades are. If his Early life were expanded to the size of [[Barack Obama#Early life and career|Barack Obama's]], it should certainly be included. I'll check other biographies later to see how their emphases compare. The needing room comment may refer to the article's size already being very long. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::The book was published in 2016, three years before Cohen [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/politics/trump-school-grades.html told the NYT] about Trump's efforts to keep his grades secret after harping about Obama's academic record for years. As if anyone but Trump would care about high school grades 50 years later. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::I didn't mean to imply it was published after this came out. In your estimation, how much more of the early life section would have been taken up by it if it had? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 14:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::No idea. Pre-presidency content that went to character kept getting trimmed because of the avalanche of presidency events. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC) == Statistic and Grover Cleveland in the lead == {{tq|Becoming only the second President in history to serve non-consecutive terms, the first being Grover Cleveland.}} Is the statistic leadworthy? Is Grover Cleveland leadworthy? (Also, [[MOS:EDITORIAL]], [[MOS:OFFICE]], and missing subject and verb.) [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :I personally think that something that has only happened twice in over 200 years of U.S. presidency is lead worthy, but others may disagree, that's just my two cents [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 22:19, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::This indicates support for the first sentence. Do you support the second? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 22:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::I'm not really sure what the second is proposing, I had a look at those policies but have obviously missed / overlooked something when trying to understand [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 23:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|Artem P75}} apologies if I was unclear. The second sentence is {{tq|Is Grover Cleveland leadworthy?}} [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I guess maybe not? as he isn't the subject matter? Maybe we could mention Trump being only the second without mentioning Grover... but I also do agree with @[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] that the lead is too long and could use some culling [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 00:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Not to nitpick, but he hasn't served his second term, yet. The sentence would be more accurate, after he assumes office in January 2025. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 22:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::Ah yeah, I agree with that, I think the policy is WP:CRYSTALBALL? Or something that I have seen used for this? Maybe could say ''elected'' to serve a second term instead? Otherwise may as well just wait until the 20th of Jan to make the decision [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 23:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Our lead is too long as it is. Throwing in this tidbit about Grover Cleveland doesn't help matters. It's [[WP:TRIVIA]]. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 00:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1256876621&amp;oldid=1256875459 Removed Grover Cleveland reference] [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Not trivia by any means; pulling a Grover Cleveland by winning the 2024 Presidential race after losing a bid for re-election in 2020 is something Donald here has lately been getting lots of attention for, with the press making comparisons between both men following this highly unusual achievement. The 132 years elapsing before that happening on the other hand is an expendable count. We definitely should have some mention of doing something only Grover did before. Let's not downplay the significance of it. The first paragraph doesn't necessarily have to be the place to discuss that, and I'm fine with the last one doing so. In the linked diff showing removal, Rollinginhisgrave also carelessly ignored how the ambiguity of just saying Donald is the second to win non-consecutive election will leave readers asking &quot;Who was the first to do so?&quot; and we shouldn't assume everyone will already know the answer. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 02:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Highly unusual because parties usually have the good sense not to nominate the loser a second time, but good sense goes out the window after a political party has transformed itself into a cult. Cleveland's misogyny ({{tq|sensible and responsible women do not want to vote. The relative positions to be assumed by men and women in the working out of our civilization were assigned long ago by a higher intelligence}}) and anti-labor stance would have fit right in but how many readers come to this page to read about him. Also, &quot;second&quot;? Trump has a few — uh — achievements all to himself: first felon, first man found liable by a court for sexual assault, first nominee/president-elect to be promoting merch from shoes to Bibles Made in China branded with his name. If we want to cite stats in the lead, these are the ones we should select. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|SNUGGUMS}} Much of the lede invites questions: why did his businesses fail? How did Russia interfere? What did he do that was racist, sexist etc? So on. To answer those questions a reader may read on to see what the lede is summarizing. It's the nature of summary style. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} You're presuming all viewers would have enough time to read the page beyond its lead section and that's not a guarantee. To elaborate on rarity, what I'm getting at is that non-consecutive wins are an almost unprecedented occurrence that many folks once believed would never be repeated. The closest anybody came before last week was Theodore Roosevelt during the 1912 election. This is far less common than things like businesses failing or someone being racist/sexist. While I can't yet say for sure that it'll be the most prominent trait of his Presidential statistics like it appears to be for Grover, people either way would expect a straightforward mention of names when discussing only one of two in history who broke longstanding patterns. It wouldn't exactly be a big bloat to simply identify him. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 22:47, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :I would agree that something that has happened only twice in over 200 years is lead worthy... I think the lead in general needs a very thorough cleanup, for example the entire third paragraph, starting with: :&quot;In his first term, Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, funded expansion of the Mexico–United States border wall...&quot; :Should probably just be moved to the &quot;First Presidency&quot; section... These are things he did while he was in office for his first term so I would think that is the section where they belong rather than contributing to the bloat in the lead... but I will not expand the subject matter here and will raise another talk page post on this &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 22:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Leads convey the most important parts of the person's bio. There are a number of sources about Grover Cleveland's presidency now that we have a second non-consecutive term president, but this press will die out before Thanksgiving and it will be mostly forgotten. Cleveland is meaningless to Trump's biography aside from that one trivial commonality. I do agree about the need for a thorough rewrite though. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 23:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::We need to reflect the emphasis that RS put on this. Our discussion of the comparison to Cleveland is sourced to [https://www.npr.org/2024/11/04/g-s1-32048/grover-cleveland-trump-non-consecutive-terms this NPR article]. Those who support including the comparison in the lede: do you think this sourcing verifies that inclusion in the lede would be [[WP:PROPORTIONATE]], and that it's inclusion (from [[WP:MOS/LEAD]]) {{tq|reflect[s] its importance to the topic?}} [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I do not think there is a weight issue here per [[WP:PROPORTIONATE]], it currently only makes up a single sentence of the lead, its not as though it goes in to depth or discussion, it just mentions it as a single line tagged on to the mentioning of his second victory, which was a non-consecutive victory, so I believe is worth mentioning as it is only the second in history. Although this is also mentioned at the end of the first paragraph: {{tq|&quot;In November 2024, he was re-elected to a second, non-consecutive term as president&quot;}} so we could add mention of the fact that this is only the second time this has happened in that section and remove mention of it in the last paragraph? &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 23:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Just to be clear, that NPR link isn't the only piece to make comparisons between these guys, and Artem has a good point on weight/proportionate concerns. I see no violation per the importance of these unconventional winning stats. Muboshgu also got overly hasty with remarks on people forgetting it before Thanksgiving. That's purely speculation and we have no way of telling for certain how many will remember the similarities. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 23:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Thanks SNUGGUMS and Artem for these replies. I agree that Muboshgu's comment likely fell too far into [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]], but we do need to account for [[WP:RECENTISM]]. Including one sentence on something of course can give too much weight, even if it's not in depth. I'm sure you can think of many examples. Proportion therefore applies, as does MOS:LEAD. :::::{{tq|so I believe is worth mentioning as it is only the second in history}} I understand you believe that, but we are to reflect the importance placed by RS. Do you think that is demonstrated by the source provided? :::::{{tq|that NPR link isn't the only piece to make comparisons}} If you think other sources are able/better able to verify the importance, please provide them. :::::I want to reassure you both that I'm not opposed to including the comparison, I just want to ensure it's inclusion doesn't violate [[WP:NPOV]] by verifying that importance placed reflects that of RS. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I guess if giving appropriate weight to the RS is the concern it would be beneficial to locate other sources that report on this so as to not give an undue balance. I'm sure this will not be difficult as it does seem like something noteworthy, but then again it may not be as noteworthy as I perceive and there very may well not be much RS on it. I will see if I can locate some good reliable sources in my free time this afternoon and propose them here &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} For what it's worth, there's pieces from [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2024/11/06/grover-cleveland-other-president-win-back-trump-election/ The Daily Telegraph], [https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4979460-trump-election-grover-cleveland-white-house/amp/ The Hill], [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/us/politics/trump-grover-cleveland-second-term.html The New York Times], [https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/11/06/donald-trump-grover-cleveland-non-consecutive-president-terms/76088079007/ USA Today] [https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article295130869.html Miami Herald], [https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/national-international/donald-trump-grover-cleveland-nonsecutive-presidential-terms/3666352/ WBC-TV (aka NBC Washington)], etc. that discuss differences and similarities between the men. If you want other samples, then I could provide those as well. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 06:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :That's okay for now. This goes some way to establishing [[WP:WEIGHT]], although insufficiently (it's unclear how this goes beyond simple verifiability, and [[WP:VNOT|verifiability does not guarantee inclusion]]). To avoid [[Wikipedia:Bring me a rock]], if you'll permit me a few hours I'll have a look through sourcing. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{u|SNUGGUMS}}, {{u|Artem P75}} I had a go at evaluating the weighting RS put on claims to importance. I used a sample of sources; a different sample may generate different results. I searched &quot;donald trump win&quot; (not in quotes) on Google. I opened every result for a few pages and closed pages that were attributed as an individual's opinion or analysis. I closed some that didn't discuss what the election meant. I closed some that were about a subtopic, such as the election win in Arizona, and talked about the importance to Arizona etc. Excluded articles were: [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/09/politics/donald-trump-election-what-matters/index.html][https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/president-results][https://www.npr.org/2024/11/10/g-s1-33609/donald-trump-wins-arizona][https://www.heritage.org/conservatism/commentary/trumps-win-ordinary-americans-declared-independence-the-elites][https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ap-race-call-donald-trump-wins-arizona][https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/trump-wins-arizona-election-harris-swing-state-rcna173809][https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/11/05/us/elections/results-president.html][https://naacp.org/articles/naacp-reacts-news-president-elect-donald-trumps-win-2024-presidential-election][https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/10/20/trump-overturn-2024-election-plan-00184103][https://www.cbsnews.com/video/the-factors-that-led-to-donald-trumps-victory/][https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-harris-polls][https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/][https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-lede/donald-trump-wins-a-second-term]. I then crudely [[coding (social sciences)|coded]] the results and even more crudely numerically described the emphasis the source was placing (1 being in the title, 0 being not mentioned). {{Collapse top}} {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; |+ Crude [[Coding (social sciences)|Coding]] of news articles |- | Title |Outlet|| + Latino shift || + votes on border || + Urban votes || No change in suburban vote || Rural vote || Swing state sweep || Political comeback || Won frustrated voters || Validated coarse rhetoric || Outperformed 2020 || + US stock market || + BTC || Non-consecutive || Grover Cleveland || First convicted felon || Oldest elected || Prices || Crime || Migrants || Kamala unpopular Biden || Consumer sentiment || Inflation || Young voters || Suburban movement || Not a huge win || Shocked Democrats || Women voters || Black voters || College degree voters || Kamala time-short || Trump's Continuing dominance of politics || Blue wall defeated || COVID considered history || Tim Walz bad || White voters || Economy || Decisive || Popular vote, first Republican in 20 years || Religious || Trans || Deportation || Anti-elite || Not shocking || 2nd time beating woman || Not seen as fascist || Female president || Protests || Men || White without college degree || Direction of country |- |[https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/10/politics/trump-voter-shifts-nationwide/index.html Trump’s 2024 victory revealed voter shifts that could reshape America’s political landscape] |CNN|| 0.75 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/election-2024-trump-celebrates-win/ Election 2024: Trump sweeps all 7 battleground states, CBS News projects] |CBS|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://apnews.com/article/election-day-trump-harris-white-house-83c8e246ab97f5b97be45cdc156af4e2 Trump wins the White House in a political comeback rooted in appeals to frustrated voters] |AP|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0.9 || 0.5 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- |[https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2024-11-12/donald-trumps-presidential-election-victory-in-6-charts Donald Trump’s Election Victory, in 6 Charts] |U.S. News|| 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.lemonde.fr/en/united-states/article/2024/11/10/2024-us-election-donald-trump-wins-arizona_6732283_133.html 2024 US Election: Donald Trump wins Arizona in swing state sweep] |Le Monde|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://time.com/7172052/how-donald-trump-won-2024/ How Trump Won] |Time|| 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/7/us-election-results-how-did-donald-trump-break-the-blue-wall US election results: How did Donald Trump break the ‘blue wall’ – again?] |Al Jazeera|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-win-presidency-2024/ Donald Trump wins election in historic comeback after 2020 loss, indictments and bruising campaign] |CBS|| 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/czxrnw5qrprt Donald Trump wins 2024 US election in historic comeback] |BBC|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://apnews.com/article/trump-harris-presidential-election-takeaways-d0e4677f4cd53b4d2d8d18d674be5bf4 Election takeaways: Trump’s decisive victory in a deeply divided nation] |AP|| 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.3 || 0.25 || 0 || 0.3 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.1 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0.5 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/us/politics/trump-wins-presidency.html Donald Trump Returns to Power, Ushering in New Era of Uncertainty] |NY Times|| 0.3 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.7 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.3 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0.4 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gpd2487e5o The view from countries where Trump's win really matters] |BBC|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-wins-2nd-term-historic-return-white/story?id=115358710 Donald Trump wins 2nd term in historic return to White House] |ABC|| || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.6 || 0 || 0 || 0.6 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://time.com/7175083/donald-trump-presidency-inflation/ What Donald Trump’s Win Means for Inflation] |Time|| || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- |[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/10/trump-wins-arizona-completing-sweep-of-all-seven-battleground-states-ap-reports Trump wins Arizona to clinch sweep of seven battleground states] |The Guardian|| || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- |[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/06/donald-trump-wins-presidential-election/ Donald Trump wins presidential election, defeating Harris to retake White House] |Washington Post|| 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.35 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0.6 || 0 || 0 || 0.7 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.75 || 0.75 |- | Sum | || 3.55 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 3 || 5.25 || 3.1 || 0.5 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 1.15 || 1.1 || 0.75 || 1.65 || 0.9 || 0.25 || 1.65 || 1.6 || 0.5 || 2.65 || 1.6 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 1.55 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 0.65 || 0.5 || 1.75 || 0.5 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 0.8 || 0 || 0.25 || 0.65 || 0.25 || 1 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.75 || 0.75 |} {{collapse bottom}} Takeaways: * From this sample, for RS, the most significant thing about this election was it being a political comeback. * The increase in Trump's vote among Latinos was also seen as significant, for example: **[https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/10/politics/trump-voter-shifts-nationwide/index.html &quot;A trend with the potential to remake the American political landscape is the huge shift in Latino voters toward Trump.&quot;] **[https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2024-11-12/donald-trumps-presidential-election-victory-in-6-charts &quot;As has been extensively noted, exit polls show that Latino men went from backing Biden by 23 points to backing Trump by 12 points, a stunning result.&quot;]) * It was seen as less historic that Trump was the second president to have non-consecutive terms than that he was the oldest. * When sources did mention the historicity of Trump's non-consecutive terms, they gave equal emphasis of the achievement with a discussion of Grover Cleveland. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::With all of those results in mind, I don't see any problems with due weight for the part regarding non-consecutive wins. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 13:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::I actually think the opposite having now done the review. Could you clarify why including the fact in the lead at all would be giving due weight, when it was not given such weight by RS? Surely the appropriate outcome here given would be to replace it with the characterization as a political comeback? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::&quot;...{{tq|replace it with the characterization as a political comeback}}&quot; I would support this. ''To me'' it is significant that he was the second in history to win non-consecutive terms and I find it quite interesting, but from the above it seems like there has been next to no coverage on it, and Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the weight given by [[WP:RS]], so unfortunately I don't see a reason to include this fact in the lead &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 21:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} By your own admission, Rollinginhisgrave, it was '''equal emphasis of the achievement with a discussion of Grover Cleveland'''. That suggests any mention of the non-consecutive wins would be an appropriate place to name the other guy. It's unreasonable to now assert otherwise and the way you did so sounds like a cheap cop-out. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 22:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Please assume good faith of me, I have no preferences beyond reflecting the weight of RS, and I 100% agree that the results above {{tq|suggests any mention of the non-consecutive wins would be an appropriate place to name the other guy}}; if included in the body, it should be represented as such. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 22:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::In that case, keep a watch for any other pieces that come up covering both men, and those can be assessed for further calculations on weight. It wouldn't surprise me to see more pop up, but only time will tell how many others will talk about their similarities and differences. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 01:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|SNUGGUMS}} It wouldn't surprise me either. When/if we get there, we can make those alterations. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == Russia was a hoax == Mueller’s results found nothing so that part is 100% INACCURATE. [[Special:Contributions/71.205.198.48|71.205.198.48]] ([[User talk:71.205.198.48|talk]]) 02:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Could you be more specific in what you're referring to / proposing? :...To me, this makes no sense &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 02:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::In our biographical article on Trump, we spend a lot of space on possible collusion by Trump's 2016 campaign with Russia interference, although ''[https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf Mueller Report]'', vol. I, p. 173: &quot;Ultimately, the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities.&quot; [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 07:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Regarding a lot of space, see the section [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256976843#Investigations Investigations]. Also, I looked in the subsection [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256976843#Mueller_investigation Mueller Investigation] and I couldn't find any mention of the ultimate result mentioned in my above message. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 15:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Do we say there was collusion? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::No, but the report not finding any evidence of collusion resulted in it being a political debacle for the Democrats, basically vindicated Trump's charges of a &quot;Russiagate witchhunt&quot;, and embarrassed the news media (notably the ''NYT'', who pumped the story day after day for years in a manner which is honestly comparable to the false stories about alleged WMDs before the Iraq War). What this article says is correct, but these circumstances should make us rethink its mention within the lead. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Another sensible point. The landscape has shifted beneath our feet here, and we haven't been responsive to the latest RS. A lot of the Russia stuff is legacy text from a time when RS were much more comfortable speculating about a link between Trump and the Kremlin. That's now largely stopped as more information has come out. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 10:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I also agree on this. The lead is too long, and ultimately the Russia-Muller angle petered out. Even if something was regularly on the news at the time, it probably shouldn't be in the lead if it had little lasting significance. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 11:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == Parents, children, and spouses links in the infobox &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Parents and children links in the infobox&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == Re: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256913704] This keeps getting added and removed with no resolution in sight. As I understand it, the rationale for omission has been that the parents are covered by the &quot;Trump family&quot; link. On the other hand, so are the children and they remain linked in the infobox. I'm thinking it's parents and children, or neither. In any case, let's settle this once and, hopefully, for all. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Looking at other U.S. politician's pages, specifically [[Barack Obama]] and [[George W. Bush]], they both have their parents listed, and then a separate section for &quot;relatives&quot; with [[Obama Family]] and [[Bush Family]] respectively being linked. The same applies to [[John F. Kennedy]] and [[Kamala Harris]] to name some other examples, so I would think we should follow suit on the Trump article &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 05:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :I was about to make almost the same post, except that &quot;Spouses&quot; is also thoroughly covered by the link, so I would say it's either include parents or remove children and spouses. :The current infobox is somewhat long already, but information like Children/Spouses/Parents is extremely common in biographies on Wikipedia, and usually considered &quot;pertinent information&quot;, so I can see reasoning in either direction. :I don't really care which direction is chosen, but for consistency with other articles, I'd lean more toward adding the parents. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 05:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :[[MOS:INFOBOX]] identifies the purpose of inboxes as allowing the reader to &quot;identify key facts at a glance&quot;. Given this, the link to [[Family of Donald Trump]] should be removed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Not necessarily disagreeing, but it appears to be an argument against the {{para|relatives}} parameter of {{tlx|Infobox officeholder}}. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Perhaps, I'm not sure how it is applied/intended. If it is intended to list notable individual relatives, then it's not an argument against. Probably best to assume that's the intent as it is the assumption that aligns with the guidelines. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Ok, so all of the cited precedents are just wrong, and I could live with that. &quot;The existence of bad stuff does not justify or excuse the addition or retention of other bad stuff of the same kind. Not all consistency is good consistency.&quot; On my user page since January 2018. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If we were to agree to remove these fields and lump it all into [[Trump Family]] would we then have to go to the other politician pages to also change this? I'm not opposed to this, it just seems like a lot of work for a change that seems like a matter of semantics &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 06:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::&lt;s&gt;Remove the fields of both parents/children? I don't think anyone's making the case for that. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; Apologies Mandruss, I don't seem to be carefully reading at the moment, I will take a break. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::We could, but we wouldn't have to. That kind of thing always turns little issues into gigantic issues, and other articles are not affected by decisions made at this one. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Wouldn't this same reasoning apply to the '''Awards''' section? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Avoid topic expansion. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I don't understand Mandruss' comment above, but yes I would say so. Could be worth asking for clarity on [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I'm thinking ahead to a consensus item about {{tq|Parents, children, and spouses links in the infobox}}, which would link to this discussion, which would contain stuff about other issues. Not good organization. Address separate topics separately. Start linking issues like that, and things quickly grow too large to deal with effectively. Usually not helpful to try to solve all the related problems at once. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The point being, ''if'' the same logic applies, then I don't think the reasoning is valid. There is no ''way'' the intended use of the '''Awards''' section is to list the &quot;most important&quot; awards, because choosing which are the &quot;most important&quot; would be very controversial on every article where the subject has more than a few awards (''let alone'' this article). ::::Of course, this is all speculation, and I could be wrong. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If you're not proposing we do something to the {{para|awards}} parameter in this discussion, disregard my comments &lt;del&gt;with my apologies&lt;/del&gt;. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC) Edited after reply 06:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Don't apologize; it was a very reasonable assumption [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:46, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Ok, I apologize for apologizing. Stricken. :) &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC) I've posted a question [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Can MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE be updated to reflect discussion here?|here]] at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes]]. Hopefully they can clarify the intent, as there seems to be some disagreement on the talk page. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC) == Financial == Here's some material that is in our article at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1257039271#Financial] :Financial :In April 2019, the House Oversight Committee issued subpoenas seeking financial details from Trump's banks, Deutsche Bank and Capital One, and his accounting firm, Mazars USA. Trump sued the banks, Mazars, and committee chair Elijah Cummings to prevent the disclosures.[506] In May, DC District Court judge Amit Mehta ruled that Mazars must comply with the subpoena,[507] and judge Edgardo Ramos of the Southern District Court of New York ruled that the banks must also comply.[508][509] Trump's attorneys appealed.[510] In September 2022, the committee and Trump agreed to a settlement about Mazars, and the accounting firm began turning over documents.[511] It doesn't appear to be worthwhile for our article, is just taking up space and maybe we should delete it. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 22:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|Bob K31416}} What weighting do RS give it? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::In the material there were 6 refs. The first was April 22, 2019, then 4 refs May 21–22 and finally one September 17. It was an episode of congress subpoenas for some of Trump's financial records. As we look at the episode today, there doesn't seem to be much of interest there. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Bob K31416}} Hope you don't mind, I may take a day or a few getting to this, but I'm not ignoring it and think it is worth evaluating in some depth. In the meantime, have a look in secondary sources 2022 and later and see if they discuss/give weight. Some examples of sources: [https://www.routledge.com/Criminology-on-Trump/Barak/p/book/9781032117904?srsltid=AfmBOooaph_5GHM50QvP2WpJjyNQM3yn31B03xd_Q7cVXpABv6tmPjtL Criminology on Trump] and [https://www.routledge.com/Indicting-the-45th-President-Boss-Trump-the-GOP-and-What-We-Can-Do-About-the-Threat-to-American-Democracy/Barak/p/book/9781032454771?srsltid=AfmBOoqRkFoBRGmy90Uc67LbTWnFauEFxNYhPKWE5JboHRkmj3WidBwg Indicting the 45th president Boss Trump, the GOP, and what we can do about the threat to American democracy]. Look for academic reviews of texts like these to contextualize them in academic literature; I find writing a Wikipedia article based on the reviews helpful to share such research with other editors and ensure NPOV. If I haven't responded in a few days, ping me. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 14:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == Lead cleanup move third para in lead to &quot;First Presidency&quot; section == I think the lead in general needs a very thorough cleanup, for example the entire third paragraph, starting with: &quot;In his first term, Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, funded expansion of the Mexico–United States border wall...&quot; Should probably just be moved to the &quot;First Presidency&quot; section... These are things he did while he was in office for his first term so I would think that is the section where they belong rather than contributing to the bloat in the lead. We have mention of racism and sexism in the second paragraph preceding this one, so I don't think it is appropriate to go into discussion of his policies that reflect this in the lead, but are better left to be considered in the article body per my brief understanding of [[MOS:LEAD]], [[MOS:INTRO]] and [[WP:LEADLENGTH]] &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 23:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :The lead absolutely requires a description of the policies he implemented as president. It doesn't &quot;contribute to bloat&quot; because it is one of the core features of his biography, this article, and the lead of any article on a U.S. president (or leader of any country). The details can be debated, but pretty much everything mentioned is important. If anything is bloat in the current lead, it is instead sentences such as &quot;He and his businesses have been involved in more than 4,000 legal actions, including six business bankruptcies&quot; (see [[#Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead|my proposal to remove this]] above), or perhaps the exact details on his indictments (which as commentators have noted [https://www.vox.com/donald-trump/383152/donald-trump-criminal-indictments-supreme-court-reelected] are now basically dead) and civil liabilities. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::That is a fair point - do you think it requires such an in-depth of a discussion about those policies though? The business and legal actions / bankruptcies I agree should be looked at, I think maybe cut down or removed and left for the body? These things happen all the time with businesses. I also think the exact details of his indictments could be removed and left for the body - I think mention of them should stay in the lead as a summary of the body, but as a whole I do not believe the specific details are lead appropriate and should be left for later on in the article &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 00:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::If we want to trim down that section of the lead, it should probably done to the list of things he did in response to COVID, or the part about Kim Jong Un and North Korea, since nothing substantial came of that. The parts besides those are too important to cut, in my opinion. I will note that there are other things that had real effects which are currently absent and could be added, such as the [[USMCA]] or [[Abraham Accords]]. There's also nothing about the [[Operation Warp Speed]] or the [[CARES Act]], which some editors have mentioned in [[#Can we add some positive things about his presidency to this article?|this discussion]] above. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 00:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::A &quot;discussion&quot; involving two editors that lasted 91 minutes and you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1257055949&amp;oldid=1257054027 claim that a consensus has appeared to emerge]? [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::No, I was not referring to this thread, but [[#Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead|this one]] above. I believe that a fairly clear consensus has emerged there. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::My apology, hadn't seen that one. Will respond there. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{tq|These things happen all the time with businesses}}: does the majority of reliable sources say so? Not to my knowledge, and we have many sources to the contrary. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == Biggest Political Comeback In US History == He staged the single biggest comeback in US Political History as quoted by Newsweek, CNN and others (they agreed greater than Nixon's in 1968) achieving the 2nd highest popular vote totals ever including a record amount of support from minority voters (Black, Hispanic, Jewish, Asian) than any other Republican in history. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 08:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :So what do you want us to say? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::State the facts, they are written directly below the Topic Header. You can expand upon it if you wish by including the final official numbers for minority and popular vote totals but those will be another week or so away. Regardless of the timeline, he's already achieved both facts stated above about the popular vote and the minority vote. He's also achieved 2 out of the top 3 largest popular vote totals ever recorded in American history. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 11:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::Do you have any RS that say this was the &quot;Biggest Political Comeback In US History&quot;? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::of course, I'm not sure how to link articles on here but if you Google &quot;Newsweek How Donald Trump Pulled Off the Greatest Comeback in Political History&quot; it will show the article written by Carlo Versano from 1 week ago. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 11:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::This would fail [[wp:v]] for your suggestion (clickbait titles are not RS). There is also here an issue of [[wp:undue]]. We can (at best say) &quot;according the Newsweek he pulled off the biggest political comeback in modern US history&quot;. I am unsure, that this improves our article. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Sure, another article you can Google (sorry about no links) is &quot;Daily Express 8 greatest political comebacks in history: from Trump and Farage to Churchill and Lenin.&quot; Again, the topic header stated US Political Comebacks. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Sure, what? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::CNN &quot;How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback&quot; article from November 6th also. There are many more articles from mainstream sources stating this again and again. That would be 3 direct, seperate resources reiterating the Topic Header. You could say, &quot;according to many sources, Donald Trump pulled off the biggest comeback in US political history.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Popular vote total is trivial since as the population grows, the number is higher and higher. A more accurate measure would be % of the popular vote which Trump did not earn a significant majority of when compared to prior presidents like Reagan or F.D.R. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 11:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::I wouldn't consider it trivial, there's never an infinite expansion of populations. Look at China, South Korea, Japan, etc. Many countries are shrinking in demographics. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 11:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::The 2024 population is estimated to be 24 million higher than the 2020 population which is higher than the 2016 population.... Pretty much every election cycle prior has had more eligible voters. Having a larger percentage of the country support someone is more important than simply having the most. If F.D.R. won today by the same margin he did in 1936, it would be almost 90 million people. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 11:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::By that logic it sounds like there should've been another 10+ million more total votes this election cycle than in 2020 but the fact is there wasn't. The truth is, Trump has won 2 of the top 3 total popular vote counts in history, and also defeated 2 Democratic candidates in a single election cycle. That's very relevant, and factual. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Not if there's lower turnout which is what happened this time around. He never ran against Biden in the general election so it isnt factual to say he defeated Biden. He only ran against and defeated Kamala Harris. Biden probably would've lost anyways but that's simply speculation, not fact. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::if he was running against him up until 2 months from the election and then dropped out because of a soft coup caused by his disastrous debate performance (and terrible polling numbers), that would be defeating a candidate, 2 to be exact. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::We aren't going to state this because this is not what reliable sources say. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Propaganda isn't 'reliable sources.' Biden continued his campaign after one of the worst debate performances in modern history and afterwards still continued to state he was continuing his campaign, until many Democratic donors, former and current House of Representatives and Senators demanded he quit. That would be a soft coup, especially withholding campaign finances to force him out. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 13:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::[https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/06/politics/how-donald-trump-won/index.html How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback], CNN. Here's an excerpt, &quot;Millions of Americans, including pivotal voters in Midwest and Sun Belt battlegrounds, cast ballots that clinched Trump’s historic comeback — one that promises to reshape American politics for the foreseeable future.&quot; ::::::::(To new editors, you can make a link like the above by writing: &lt;nowiki&gt;[https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/06/politics/how-donald-trump-won/index.html How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback] &lt;/nowiki&gt;, i.e. put the link, then space, then the title, all in a pair of brackets.) ::::::::[[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 13:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::This would broadly fall under [[WP:OR]] I would think, which is not allowed. At Wikipedia, we follow what [[WP:RS]] reports &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 21:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :My suggestion would be &quot;noted by media as one of the greatest political comebacks in American history.&quot; to the end of the sentence about the victory. I don't think it can go unmentioned, it is a very notable point in his political career, and also helps balance out the lead a little. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Wikipedia is not a headline [[Special:Contributions/68.57.163.100|68.57.163.100]] ([[User talk:68.57.163.100|talk]]) 03:56, 22 November 2024 (UTC) I am now out of this with a confirmed no to the suggested edit, as what we seem to have is [[wp:or]] based upon various sources that do not actually say it was the biggest comeback in US history. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Should be stated as &quot;one of the greatest&quot; anyway, stating it is &quot;the biggest&quot; outright would be fairly contentious. We typically apply this same nomenclature to great sportspersons e.g. [[Lionel Messi]]. It can't really go unmentioned entirely though, it is very widely sourced by [[WP:RSPSOURCES|major, reliable outlets]], and is a major point in his career. Lead reads as incomplete without it. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC) [[WP:NOTOPINION]]: unless you provide reliable sources supporting your opinions, you're wasting your and our time. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/06/trump-presidential-win-comeback/ Trump’s win is his greatest resurrection in a career of comebacks], Washington Post. &quot;Trump’s political revival, unparalleled in U.S. history, follows a long pattern in his life of seemingly insurmountable, self-inflicted catastrophes followed by shocking rebounds.&quot; :[https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly2818j7rko How Trump pulled off an incredible comeback], BBC : &quot;This is surely the most dramatic comeback in US political history.&quot; : [https://gazette.com/news/wex/greatest-comeback-here-s-how-trump-stacks-up-in-white-house-history/article_20127ec4-7bd2-55e8-bfe0-89fd54413e34.html Greatest comeback? Here’s how Trump stacks up in White House history], Denver Gazette. &quot;President-elect Donald Trump pulled off what many are saying is the greatest political comeback in American history by winning a second non-consecutive term despite a felony conviction and the stain of Jan. 6.&quot; :Also, please see the Wikipedia guideline, [[Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers]] and policy [[Wikipedia:Civility]]. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 16:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://nypost.com/2024/11/06/opinion/trump-the-colossus-comeback-king-of-american-politics/ Trump the ‘colossus’ is the comeback king of American politics] NY Post. &quot;We are in the midst of the greatest political comeback in American history — which follows, by eight years, the greatest political stunt in American history.&quot; :[https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2024/11/politics/trump-election-comeback-cnnphotos/ Donald Trump pulled off the ultimate comeback. See how we got here] CNN.&quot;Despite a felony conviction, two attempts on his life and rhetoric that would have surely sunk any other political campaign, he has completed the ultimate comeback.&quot; :[https://www.newsweek.com/trump-just-staged-biggest-political-comeback-american-history-opinion-1861260 Trump Just Staged the Biggest Political Comeback in American History] Newsweek.&quot;You are witnessing the greatest comeback in American political history. :The previous greatest comeback was by Richard Nixon, who lost his race for President in 1960, only to win decisively in 1968 and again in a 1972 landslide. After his resignation, he staged yet another extraordinary comeback, becoming the most influential former president America has ever had.&quot; :[https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4975713-donald-trump-greatest-comeback-since-lazarus/ Back from the dead: Donald Trump is America’s political Lazarus] The Hill. &quot;He is the greatest comeback politician in political history.&amp;nbsp;The closest thing to what Donald Trump has pulled off can be found in 1968 with Richard Nixon.&quot; :[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/how-donald-trump-pulled-off-the-greatest-comeback-in-political-history/ar-AA1tALHy How Donald Trump Pulled Off the Greatest Comeback in Political History] Newsweek.&quot;Donald J. Trump completed the greatest political comeback in modern U.S. history in the early hours of Wednesday, claiming enough electoral votes to defeat Vice President Kamala Harris and return to the White House for a second term.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 17:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{tq|Propaganda isn't 'reliable sources.}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADonald_Trump&amp;diff=1257142107&amp;oldid=1257142033 That]'s disqualifying right there. Sources Wikipedia accepts as reliable: [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources]]. Four of the five sources you presented here are opinion pieces which are generally not acceptable, and one of them is from January 2024 and referred to his win in the Iowa caucuses as the &quot;biggest political comeback in American history&quot;. CNN's ultimate comeback after having been &quot;temporarily render[ed] [] a pariah in mainstream Republican politics after Biden took office&quot; — I think that means final comeback, not single biggest. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::That something exists does not make it encyclopedic. Print media engages in sensationalism, esp. in headlines, to attract eyeballs and sell subscriptions. The Wikipedia is not that. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC) In a review of what reliable sources emphasised when discussing Trump's win in a thread above ([[Talk:Donald_Trump#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20241113115000-Statistic_and_Grover_Cleveland_in_the_lead|see here]]), one conclusion drawn was that {{tq|from this sample, for RS, the most significant thing about this election was it being a political comeback.}} I would have to look at the sources discussing the win more closely to assess how to write it (historic, biggest, attribute or not etc.), but it should be mentioned in the lede to give [[WP:WEIGHT|due weight]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :NO the, lead is a summary of important parts of our article, at best this would warrant one line in the body. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|Slatersteven}} could you elaborate? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yes (per [[wp:lead]]) &quot;In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. It is located at the beginning of the article, before the table of contents and the first heading. It is not a news-style lead or &quot;lede&quot; paragraph.&quot; it only goes in the lead if it is a major part of our article. It is hard to see how a throwaway headline can ever be spun out into a major section. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|Slatersteven}} I imagine you think including the fact about being the second president to win non-consecutive terms should be removed on the same basis. Do you agree? I am not opposed to merely including that {{tq|In the 2024 presidential election, Trump defeated the Democratic candidate, incumbent vice president Kamala Harris, winning the popular and electoral college votes.}} ::::I am not sure how to determine if his win should receive more context in the lede than that. If it should, it should be this fact, given that at this time, it is the one RS think is the most significant element of his win. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If it is not in the body it should, not be in the lead, however, I am gonna suggest the fact this is an unconvertible fact, means it has a place in the article. Where as it is debatable if the claim this was historic does. I said I was out of here with a firm no to including this, it remains a no. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::We don't have to describe it as &quot;historic&quot; etc, if that would be UNDUE. Simply &quot;multiple media outlets characterized his win as a political comeback&quot; could work. Whatever we choose &lt;ins&gt;if we choose to include something&lt;/ins&gt; it should a) be in the body, b) reflect the emphasis placed by RS, including reflecting to how RS describe it ''as a political comeback''. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I will also convert vote totals among minority voters (when they're fully counted and considered official) to percentages with a link to the official numbers to show his historic performance among minority voters for a republican candidate. This will add some balance to the sensationalized, prevailing media narrative of DJT's supporters being &quot;white supremacist, misogynistic, Nazi, etc, etc&quot; garbage they continue to spew forth while also showing a growing realignment of political bases within the parties. I can add this to whatever section it would fit best in to show a bit more fairness or balance to the article/page. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 09:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :IP, Yes it was indeed the biggest political comeback in US history. Would support a write-up of it, in the page. Afterall, it's only an opinion (also) that Trump is (for the moment, at least) considered the worst president in US history. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 13:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC) Users need to read [[wp:lead]], the lead is not there for emphasis it is a summary of our article. If it aint in the body it aint going in the lead, and one line can't be summarized with one line. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Then let's remove the election victory as a whole, and his being the second president elected to non-consecutive terms, as they're both only discussed in one line in the body... It's a highly notable point in his political career that is widely agreed upon by major, reliable sources. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::BY all means remove them if you wish. But two wrongs do not make a right.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::[[WP:LEAD]] doesn't even support your argument. &quot;As in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources.&quot; This is a major point in establishing his political notability, and widely supported by reliable, published sources. Many of the points in this lead are also concisely noted in the body, exactly how this article is meant to be written given the extent of his career. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Try the first line &quot;In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. &quot; and &quot; (latter on) &quot;Significant information should not appear in the lead, apart from basic facts, if it is not covered in the remainder of the article, although not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text.&quot;, This is not a &quot;basic fact&quot;. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::It is covered in the body, and should be expanded to include other sources. It is a basic fact if firmly agreed upon by reliable sources. [https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2024/11/politics/trump-election-comeback-cnnphotos/ CNN] [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-wins-2nd-term-historic-return-white/story?id=115358710 ABC] [https://apnews.com/article/election-day-trump-harris-white-house-83c8e246ab97f5b97be45cdc156af4e2 AP] [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/czxrnw5qrprt BBC] Keep in mind I'm not agreeing with the &quot;biggest&quot; wording. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 13:03, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{tq|It is a basic fact if firmly agreed upon by reliable sources}} see [[WP:VNOT|Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I'm not using that to argue its inclusion; it should be included because it's one of the most notable points in his political career, such to the point where it should even be in the lead. Their point was it was {{tq|not a basic fact}}, and thus should not be included, which is simply false given that many reliable sources disagree. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 13:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC) So again, a firm no. Time for an RFC? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Could we give this a bit more time before we escalate? I will have a go at working on the body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC) == FORUM == There has been a lot of [[WP:NOTFORUM]] vio going on here of late. Including a number of experienced editors. I'm curious: *Do these editors know they are violating policy? *If so, can they explain themselves please? *What, if anything, should be done about this? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :*I think what we maybe seeing is good faith efforts to deal with requests that are not policy compliant themselves. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Go [[WP:TROUT]] them or something &lt;/sarcasm&gt;. It’s incredibly unlikely anyone is going to be sanctioned by an admin for anything short of uncivil behavior. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 12:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::I must have missed when somebody was sanctioned for uncivil behavior without a trip to [[WP:AE]]. But I'm not looking for sanctions.{{pb}}I mean, we sometimes collapse NOTFORUM vios, but that's not really practical when it's interspersed with constructive non-vios every fourth comment. Even if I did that, I'd look like a self-appointed Talk Page Sheriff unless I had help from a few others. There's just too much of it going on, and I know better than to piss off ten experienced editors at the same time. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 14:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yea, that's kind of what I meant, I've never seen anyone sanctioned at AE for NOTFORUM (that wasn't a blatent civility issue as well). I digress though, you kind of highlighted why there's not much we can do. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 17:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Tell ya what. I'll start posting on user talk pages and see if that has any beneficial effect. I could use some help with that, by anybody who cares about keeping this page functional. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) I am moving discussion of [[WP:FORUM|FORUM]] and [[WP:BITING|BITING]] to this more relevant thread. Context is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump#c-104.230.247.132-20241113115500-Slatersteven-20241113114700 an IP apologizing] for not knowing how to link to sources. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :Appreciate the help with how to link articles Bob, thank you and sorry to others for not linking directly. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 13:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::[[WP:NOTFORUM]]: not a help desk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::It may be [[WP:NOTFORUM]] but its just a small tip in a relevant discussion to help the IP out, its nice to just be helpful sometimes and may encourage them to make an account and be an active participant in [[Wikipedia| the project]]; [[WP:NOBITING]] &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 21:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Best practice here would be to post a note on their [[WP:UTP|user talk page]] to avoiding BITING and FORUM. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 22:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::There was a discussion of this at the policy talk page in the section [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&amp;oldid=1257755875#4._Discussion_forums Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#4. Discussion forums]. It appears it is OK to make a brief, related, helpful technical suggestion on the article talk page for the benefit of various editors. Cheers, [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 14:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC) == Latter half of the opening paragraph == Does anybody have a &lt;u&gt;formal&lt;/u&gt; proposal for the second half of the opening paragraph? That's all the info relating to the 2024 election results? It's been ten days &amp; counting, so we need a stable version in place, between now &amp; the inauguration day. PS - For goodness sake, &lt;u&gt;don't&lt;/u&gt; add &quot;current&quot; or &quot;currently&quot; before (if included) &quot;president-elect&quot;, as it's a useless descriptive. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 04:50, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I wholeheartedly support forming a consensus to put an end to all the back-and-forth (stabilize). Since it would be a temporary consensus as you say, it wouldn't need a consensus list item, just an archived discussion (e.g., this one) that we could point to in a DO NOT CHANGE hidden comment. No opinion on content. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC) == Biography organization == Hi {{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}, I saw you moved the discussion of religion and family back to &quot;Early life and education&quot;. I don't think there are any good options here, as the article is not structed as a biography. The article to compare to would be [[Ronald Reagan]], as he is the most recent president that is a [[WP:FA|featured article]] (and helpfully he also had a prominent pre-political career). Some thoughts on reorganization to better meet this I'd like to hear your perspective on: * Break up the section [[Donald Trump#Wealth]], placing most into Business career where it is relevant. * Break up religion paragraph into the bits relevant to early life, and then a brief discussion in presidency discussing the relevance to his relationship to religion as president. * [[Ronald Reagan#Marriages and children]] is placed a lot more chronologically. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 18:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I'll get back to this tomorrow, too complicated for my addled brain today. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I'm generally not too fond of &quot;one size fits all&quot;, including {{tq|conform[ing] to others on Wikipedia, for example Donald Trump's two predecessors, Barack Obama and Joe Biden}}. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=763156990 This is the edit] that moved &quot;Personal life&quot; to the top of the body on February 1, 2017. I wasn't editing here at the time, briefly looked for discussions in the archive but nothing jumped out at me. I never questioned it because it made sense to me: family, wealth, tabloid and later media personality — it's all interwoven and difficult to separate into business/profession/political positions (whatever the subject is notable for) and personal life with spouse(s)/kids, hobbies, etc. Seven years later one editor shows up, questions it, and it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1257458585&amp;oldid=1257457258 gets fixed] a few minutes later (see &quot;MOS Layout&quot;, above). Good process — no dillydallying with time-consuming discussions. :[[MOS:SNO]] also says: {{tq|Because of the diversity of subjects it covers, Wikipedia has no general standard or guideline regarding the order of section headings within the body of an article.}} [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :As I said in the edit summary, Trump's personal details have been part of his public persona for more than 40 years and shouldn't relegated to the end of his bio like an afterthought. I moved them back to the top of the body, along with the &quot;Racial views&quot; and &quot;Misogyny/sexual misconduct&quot; sections that had been newly added to the &quot;Personal life&quot; section. I agree that these two sections also deal with views and conduct predating his first term as president and continued throughout his political career. The &quot;Public image&quot; section is gone, so there's no other logical place for these sections. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::I'm still thinking about the best way to address this. I will narrowly respond in two ways: ::*Racial views and misogyny could be folded under a s section 2 heading #Prejudice. ::*There is an ongoing discussion at [[Talk:Public image of Donald Trump#Article scope]] which is relevant and I hope you'll participate. It's responding to me cutting down the article 20% of its size ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Public_image_of_Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256508735 seen here]) based on the principles laid out at the top of the discussion. ::[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::Disagree, Space4Time3Continuum2x. I object to organizing this article based on your personal preferences. Please read all of [[MOS:SNO]]. Exceptions are given and this isn't one of them. Why didn't you contribute to the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_176#MOS_Layout MOS Layout] thread? -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've spent a bit of time thinking through my objection to commenting further at this time, and it has been resolved. Susan sums up my thoughts here. We can reopen to the MOS Layout thread before it's archived to discuss further or simply restore. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 21:00, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Already gone.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1257834791] &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:05, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::My mistake, thanks for the correction. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 21:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::{{u|Mandruss}}, is there a procedure to restore the MOS Layout thread? I'll assume that Space4Time3Continuum2x was occupied elsewhere and didn't get a chance to weigh in. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 13:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::No procedure, just do it (using copy-and-paste) or ask someone to do it. I did it. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{tq|based on your personal preferences}} — the layout predates my first edit of this article by more than a year. Considering the number of editors who have collaborated on this page, there have been astoundingly few objections to this particular feature (none, until now, that I recall). The full text of MOS:SNO is Wiki-vague, as usual: {{tq|Because of the diversity of subjects it covers, Wikipedia has no general standard or guideline regarding the order of section headings within the body of an article. The usual practice is to order body sections based on the precedent of similar articles. For exceptions, see Specialized layout below.}} No general standard or guideline vs. usual practice. I think you may have misunderstood the &quot;exceptions&quot;. They are types of articles where layouts are {{tq|generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow '''though occasional exceptions may apply'''.}} Bolding added by me, i.e., even for these exeptions, where editors are advised to &quot;attempt to follow the generally accepted standard&quot;, &quot;occasional exceptions may apply&quot;. And about a precedent you cited in &quot;MOS Layout&quot;: [[Barack Obama]] has an &quot;Early life and career&quot; section with &quot;Family and personal life&quot; following &quot;Education&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::By the time I saw the &quot;MOS Layout&quot; thread, it had already been closed saying Rolling &quot;fixed&quot; the flagged grave violation of — uh — usual practice within minutes. Bold edit, I challenged, needs to be discussed. I've already commented here, don't see any point in reopening &quot;MOS Layout&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Space4Time3Continuum2x}} :::::* [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=763156990 The edit] that moved up &quot;Personal life&quot; is from a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Atvica blocked] possible sockpuppet. :::::* Donald Trump is a human being like everybody else. What section is it that you want to front load? :::::* We have some leeway. Do you want to restore a §Public image section? :::::* We had an objection just [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258150213&amp;oldid=1258122470 yesterday] to starting with §Personal details. :::::* Right you are that MOS:SNO is vague. But it's an indication of why most Wikipedia biographies begin with §Early life. More examples: [[Louis XIV]], [[Elon Musk]], [[Mao Zedong]], [[Nelson Mandela]], [[Adolf Hitler]], [[Benito Mussolini]], [[Vladimir Lenin]], [[Charles de Gaulle]], [[Joe Biden]] and [[Ronald Reagan]]. [[George W. Bush]] and [[Barack Obama]] both have §Personal life higher than I'd like, and they both begin with §Early life and career. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::*I don't have anything to add here beyond that we still have a section for Public image: Assessments#Public. Content was moved out of #Public image for the reasons laid out in most depth at [[Talk:Public image of Donald Trump#Article scope]]; I earnestly hope you both could weigh in at that discussion as it needs more eyes and as you can see it affects this article. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I looked at the 10 or so edits the alleged sockpuppet made at this article. They all improved the formatting or fixed poor wording, e.g., replacing &quot;2000 presidential candidacy&quot; with &quot;2000 presidential campaign&quot;. The [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258150213&amp;oldid=1258122470 &quot;objection&quot;] replaced &quot;Personal details&quot; with &quot;Early and personal life&quot; — I can live with that. The editor did not object to the positioning of the material I restored to that section at the top of the body. I don't know what to make of {{tq|Trump is a human being}} and {{tq|front load}}. Are you accusing me of something? {{tq|both have §Personal life higher than I'd like}} — sounds like {{tq|personal preferences}} to me. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}? May we close the restored MOS Layout thread? -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::&lt;small&gt;{{ping|Rollinginhisgrave}} No, there's no Public image section, only a Public subsection of Assessment. I won't be contributing to your thread on Article scope which discussed a narrow issue (orange skin). I am spread too thin over several threads. Thank you. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; ::::{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}, nobody is accusing you of anything. ::::*Your personal preferences show (&quot;I can live with that&quot;) same as me (I don't plan to edit [[Barack Obama]] or [[George W. Bush]] to match my prefs.). ::::*May we close the restored MOS Layout thread? ::::*To answer your question, Trump is just a man, and he merits a biography that's no different from everybody else's. (Here's the dictionary definition of [https://www.dictionary.com/browse/front-load front load].) I'm just asking you, what sections do you want to come early? Do you want to add a §Public image section? -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 18:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've changed Assessment#Public to Assessment#Public image in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1258448886 this diff]. &lt;small&gt;{{u|SusanLesch}} It's on me cutting 80% of the article, orange skin is just an example. No fuss if you are spread too thin, what you have been able to spare is appreciated.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}, I removed the Religion section because it was word for word the same as a paragraph in Early life. If Religion is one of the sections you want front-loaded then I'll move the first one down (it has all the original refs). I asked for the MOS Layout thread to be archived. Can you please answer which sections you want to appear at the top? Right now we look bad with &quot;Early and personal life: Early life, education, family&quot; which is empty and repetitive. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 19:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}} at this time, we have two editors in favor of the rearranged section order and one against. This is a very very weak majority, especially in light of the long-standing page consensus. How would you like us to proceed? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC) == Proposal to rename [[Racial views of Donald Trump]] == There is currently a proposal to rename [[Racial views of Trump]] at {{slink|Talk:Racial views of Donald Trump|Changing the title|nopage=y}}. Editors here are invited to participate: this will impact the section heading &quot;Racial views&quot; in this article per [[WP:SUMMARY|summary style]] [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC) == Recommended biography == Can anyone here recommend a Trump biography? My plan is to read one good biography. Looking at [[Bibliography_of_Donald_Trump#About_the_books_about_Trump|the bibliography]], maybe ''[[What Were We Thinking]]'', or one by Philip Rucker and Carol Leonnig, Jonathan Karl, Bob Woodward, Jennifer Mercieca, Maggie Haberman, Fred Trump III, ? Other than a historical bias learned from my mother, I have no horse in this race, and am trying to keep an open mind. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 14:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :See [[WP:NOTFORUM]] [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 17:05, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::Pardon me, [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]]. I daresay this article comes up short and I'm offering to help. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump#Books Book sources] are an impoverished list given the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bibliography_of_Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1257626144#About_Trump number of books about the subject]. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:12, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::Taking my marbles and going home. I settled on Mr. Lozada's ''[[What Were We Thinking]]''. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::&lt;s&gt;That's fine, and we appreciate your efforts, but a Wikipedia talk page just isn't the place for this&lt;/s&gt; [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 17:34, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|Farkle Griffen}} I think Susan was inquiring as to the quality (reliable, comprehensive) of high-quality sourcing on the subject for the purposes of editing, which is an important function of talk pages. Perhaps Susan could have rewritten to be clearer as to her intent, but in cases where intent is unclear to us, it's best to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] (which can involve asking an editor for clarification of they believe their comment is on topic). ::::{{u|SusanLesch}} I don't think ''[[What Were We Thinking]]'' is a biography in the strictest sense. From my similarly limited familiarity with sourcing on the subject, it seems like biography, particularly pre-presidency, will have to be sourced primarily to biographies 2017 and before such as ''[[Trump Revealed]]''. ::::For a retrospective assessment of the Trump presidency and afterwards, which is necessary for assessing what reliable sources put emphasis on, the best sources I have seen aren't necessarily exclusively about Trump, but have a chapter on broad-strokes of his presidency. For domestic policy for example, see ''[https://www.routledge.com/The-Presidency-and-Domestic-Policy-Comparing-Leadership-Styles-FDR-to-Biden/Genovese-Belt-Lammers/p/book/9780367508746? The Presidency and Domestic Policy: Comparing Leadership Styles, FDR to Biden]''. I'm interested to read ''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv201xj05 The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: A First Historical Assessment]'', but reading reviews on such a book will be particularly important: as I &lt;del&gt;read them&lt;/del&gt;&lt;ins&gt;read them (books)&lt;/ins&gt; I'll create stubs for them to share findings with other editors like I have with ''[[Cocoa (book)|Cocoa]]'' and ''[[Unsavory Truth]]''. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:01, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:09, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::::That's a fair point. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 20:11, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{u|Farkle Griffen}}, sorry for the misunderstanding. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Questions for you, [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]]. First, the book sources seemed to be slim pickings given the number of books about Trump. I appreciate the work that editors have done using Kranish &amp; Fisher, which does appear to have been helpful. I am comfortable with Leonnig, Woodward, Haberman, and am interested in [[Jennifer Mercieca]] because it looks like she studied Trump's speech patterns. Decided on Lozada because, for one thing, I don't wish to become a scholar of Trump. Lozada is a Pulitzer-winner who was able to sort through the 150 or more books about Trump. I could be mistaken easily, and it would help to have a guide. Don't you agree his perspective would be useful? Is the Zelizer book you mention here a collection of essays/papers? Another good way to get a birds eye view. Sorry I can't invest the time in something like ''The Presidency and Domestic Policy''. One other criterion: if any of the bibliography list is available free on the Internet Archive that would be a selling point. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::{{u|SusanLesch}} The book sources are certainly slim. I expanded the use of Kranish &amp; Fisher a few days ago as a proof of concept in replacing news articles with books, but I will revise. If we're covering the presidency, there's two elements of sources to prioritise: retrospective and [[WP:SCHOLARSHIP|academic]]. ::::::::*[[Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America|Haberman]] is interesting, I haven't read about it. Might be the best for biographical details. ::::::::*Mercieca is interesting as well; we're a few years out so might be good to read recent reviews. ::::::::*[[What Were We Thinking|Lozada]] would be useful to the page, but I think it serves a different purpose to what you identified in your first two sentences. ::::::::*Yes, Zelizer is a collection of essays; I'm most looking forward to any introductory material which attempts to synthesise. ::::::::*''The Presidency and Domestic Policy'' would probably actually be the easiest, since it is one chapter which is relevant (the one on Trump). ::::::::I'm sc(k)eptical much will be available on the Internet Archive; it's been cut down mercilessly recently. If you need access to a source, email me. Hopefully I'll be able to construct an annotated source list over the next few weeks. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 07:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Thank you! I'm leaning to Haberman because you thought it sounds interesting. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 13:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}}P.S. Suggest we don't underestimate the Internet Archive. I went through the first [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_Donald_Trump#About_Trump half of the bibliography] and found these. Most of the others are available only to persons with print disabilities. *Never Enough: Donald Trump and the Pursuit of Success *The case against Trump *Where's Trump? Find Donald Trump in his race to the White House *Man Enough? Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, and the Politics of Presidential Masculinity *The Little Book of Trumpisms *Trump: A Graphic Biography *If Only They Didn't Speak English *Big Agenda: President Trump's Plan to Save America *Choosing Donald Trump: God, Anger, Hope, and Why Christian Conservatives Supported Him *In America: Tales from Trump Country *Trump: Anatomy of a Monstrosity *Trump This! The Life and Times of Donald Trump, An Unauthorized Biography -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Thanks for doing this, very helpful. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::Unfortunately our luck ran out after the oldest 50 books. The rest of the list found only: ::*in Arabic only: Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House ::*audio: Donald Trump v. The United States ::So overall I tend to agree with you about the Internet Archive's utility for this project. Maybe something will help. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 00:40, 18 November 2024 (UTC) == Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8 == {{atop|This is involved closure, which is permitted when consensus is sufficiently clear.{{pb}}Consensus to cancel [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 8. Currently 8&amp;ndash;3 Support and it would take a dramatic trend reversal to change the outcome. Closure subject to challenge by reversion, as always. Barring that...{{pb}}Eligible for manual archival after this time tomorrow, and I will change the consensus list. The article should not be changed until then. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC)}} Item 8 requires including that &quot;Trump was the first U.S. President without prior military or government service&quot; in the lead. A LOT has happened since 2016 (when this item was added) that deserves mention in the lead, and in proportion, this detail is very minor. Currently this random trivia takes up about as much space the entire mention of Covid-19. In the same vein as my previous post, we need to start making room in the lead for the soon-to-come paragraph about his 2nd term. Including minor trivia like this is not the precedent that should be set. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 00:37, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' per proposer. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Comment''' The lede should reflect the emphasis the body places. Do you think the coverage in the lede misrepresents this emphasis? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:Continuing with the example I gave, this only seems to be mentioned for one sentence in the body, and only in passing, whereas Covid-19 takes up several sections, and has a dedicated main article. *:Similarly with nearly every other one-sentence fact currently mentioned in the lead. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::The question of weight emphasis is not on the sentence, but what the sentence is summarizing. Here it is [[Donald Trump#Election to the presidency]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:11, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::Are you suggesting one body sentence provides sufficient weight for inclusion in the lead? If so, you might want to re-think that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:17, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::The questions we are asking are a) does #Election to the presidency receive enough emphasis to be covered in the lede, b) if so, how can we best summarize it while giving appropriate emphasis? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::Are they? I thought the question here is: &quot;Should current consensus 8 be canceled?&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::::Yes, as if the answer to those questions creates something similar to consensus 8, the answer is no, if it doesn't, the answer is yes. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:44, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::Obviously I lack the intelligence to comprehend that comment, but I'm guessing you're unhelpfully mixing issues that could be addressed separately, expanding scope, overcomplicating, or something. I responded to the question in the section heading and that was enough for me. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::::::If my comments are incomprehensible that reflects on my communication skills and perhaps on my thoughts being incoherent. I want to make sure when we decide what goes in the lede, we are going beyond what editors personally think is significant. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::As to the six words in question, it looks to me that error was made in 2016, and by your own reasoning we should correct it by removal. There is not enough in the body to justify inclusion in the lead, and that inclusion was the result of the &quot;editorial judgment&quot; dysfunction we've talked about elsewhere. What's the problem? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::Sure, I get that the dysfunction continues in this very thread, but that won't be changed quickly if ever. At least it's looking like the end result will be the correct one, even if the means for getting there was wrong. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::As I note below, I agree. This text does not appear to meet the standards for inclusion so should be removed. Your addendum is interesting. I think it can be changed, at least among the regulars, even if it requires me being a pain. I would have just commented &quot;'''Support''': does not reflect emphasis placed in body&quot; if I thought having editors justify their support beyond editorial judgement wouldn't pressure them to improve their argumentative rigor in the future. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::::{{tq|I think it can be changed, at least among the regulars, even if it requires me being a pain.}} One can dream. Being a much larger meta issue, it should probably be a separate discussion. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::I'd say the very next sentence is handling that well enough. *:::His lack of military experience doesn't seem to be the focus of that section, or the main article linked. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::Agreed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC) * '''Support''' does not seem like something of real significance, certainly not enough for the lead &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|...Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' It seemed important at the time but the lede now has far too many more important things to cover and not much space to do it in.[[User:LM2000|LM2000]] ([[User talk:LM2000|talk]]) 02:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' Agree that it is not nearly as important now as it was eight years ago. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 02:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' as (as far as I can tell) its still true, and in fact will still be true when he next takes office, thus is still current and relevant. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC) **I'm not opposed to its inclusion, provided some expansion in the body, but could you expand on how it follows from the first part of your sentence that this is still relevant? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ***Because it still remains the case that even in his second term he will still never have served in the military. Given how much false imagery of him there is in 8unifiorm it might well be something people will be looking for, his military service. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ****I think the stronger framing for inclusion is around his status/image as an &quot;outsider&quot; politician. Other comments above effectively respond to whether &quot;it still remains the case&quot; is a sufficient justification for retention. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:Are you suggesting being true is enough to justify being in the lead? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 16:05, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::No, I am saying that is still, remains true, and is still as important as it was 8 years ago. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::So, eliminating the part of your argument that applies equally to hundreds of other things omitted from the lead, it's based entirely on your personal opinion of importance. You think that might be influenced by your natural human biases? We all have them, you know. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::No its based on nothing has changed since we added it. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 19:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::Nothing except the passage of eight years during which more stuff was added to the lead, his re-election which means much more stuff will be added to the lead in the coming four years, and the growing consensus that the lead has been too long for some time. I wouldn't call that &quot;nothing&quot;. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::I mean technically, in his second term he will have served in government prior to election... as the president in 2016 &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|...Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support'''. Good choice for preemptive shortening of the lead. Time to look for more of these. Please include the statement somewhere else in the article. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 13:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' - Trump is an important figure not for the many things he did in office, but for how he has broadly affected the politics of the United States. That he was the first real 'celebrity president' is a necessary piece of the story. What should be cut back to make the lead shorter is the details of his first presidency: individual acts and executive orders he signed or agreements he withdrew the US from isn't really the point of the biography: this could be summed up in words to the effect of &quot;Trump's foreign policy was characterized as unpredictable&quot;, &quot;Trump attempted to lower legal and illegal immigration&quot;, etc. Getting caught up in individual details like that misses the woods for the trees: zooming in on microcosms of larger policy patterns (such as the wall, travel ban and family separations to show immigration policy, or the trade war, denuclearisation and treaty withdrawals to show his foreign policy) makes the lead too long and doesn't really present anything important. Trump is responsible for a broad political realignment and societal change, which is what we should focus on in the lead: not &quot;he signed the Tax Cuts &amp; Jobs Act&quot; or &quot;he built The Wall&quot;. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 17:13, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:Ideally, we should just have one paragraph for both presidencies by 2029, summing up What Happened in broad strokes. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 17:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:This seems like a large change in focus compared to what the consensus has become over the years. I think that needs to be a separate discussion. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 19:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::Yes, but it isn't a proposal. What it is are the reasons why I think that the item above is the wrong thing to scrap out of a paragraph which has more obviously cuttable things. That Trump was the most inexperienced man ever to become president is a key part of his bio, far more so than the individual policies he pushed in term one that I'd gun for to reduce the lead's length. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 20:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::Perhaps you can make a separate draft article for the lead to clarify feasibility? Because if I'm understanding you correctly, that seems like it would force us to minimize important detail, and lead to constant, massive edit wars over how to present his story. This article especially. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 20:21, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::I've banged out a quick example here. Don't nitpick it: it's not a proposal, but an illustration of the general direction I think the article should take. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 18:30, 19 November 2024 (UTC){{collapsetop|Example lead}} {{Infobox officeholder| name = Donald Trump| image = President-elect Donald Trump, Wednesday, November 13, 2024, on the South Portico of the White House (cropped).jpg&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE the picture without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 1. --&gt;| alt = Official White House presidential portrait. Head shot of Trump smiling in front of the U.S. flag, wearing a dark blue suit jacket with American flag lapel pin, white shirt, and light blue necktie. | caption = Trump in 2024| office = 45th &amp; 47th [[President of the United States]]| vicepresident1 = [[Mike Pence]]| term_start1 = January 20, 2017| term_end1 = January 20, 2021| predecessor1 = [[Barack Obama]]| successor1 = Joe Biden| term_start = January 20, 2025| term_end = January 20, 2029| vicepresident = [[JD Vance]] | predecessor = [[Joe Biden]]}} '''Donald John Trump''' (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th and 47th [[president of the United States]] from 2017 to 2021 and from 2025 to 2029.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 50. --&gt; Trump graduated with a [[bachelor's degree]] in economics from the [[University of Pennsylvania]] in 1968. After becoming president of the family real estate business in 1971, he renamed it [[the Trump Organization]]. After a series of bankruptcies in the 1990s, [[#Side ventures|he launched side ventures]], mostly licensing the Trump name. From 2004 to 2015, he produced and hosted the [[reality television]] series ''[[The Apprentice (American TV series)|The Apprentice]]''. In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] and became the [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican Party]]'s nominee, leading to the creation of [[Trumpism]]. Trump won the [[2016 United States presidential election|2016 presidential election]] despite losing the popular vote, becoming the first U.S. president without prior military or government service.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding 6 words without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 8. --&gt; His election and policies [[Protests against Donald Trump|sparked numerous protests]]&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding 7 words without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 20. --&gt;. He lost re-election in [[2020 United States presidential election|2020]] but falsely claimed widespread electoral fraud, [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|attempted to overturn the results]], and facilitated the [[January 6 United States Capitol attack|January 6 Capitol attack]]. He ran again in [[2024 United States presidential election|2024]] and won both the electoral and popular vote, making him one of two U.S. presidents elected to serve non-consecutive terms.{{efn|The other being [[Grover Cleveland]], in [[1884 United States presidential election|1884]] and [[1892 United States presidential election|1892]].}} As president, he attempted to reduce the number of refugees and illegal† immigrants entering the U.S., had a foreign policy which was characterized as unpredictable and inconsistent, appointed three† Supreme Court justices, reacted slowly to the [[COVID-19 pandemic in the United States|COVID-19 pandemic]], and pursued an aggressive trade policy.† Many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, racist, and misogynistic.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus, see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], items 30 and 51. --&gt; He [[#Promotion of conspiracy theories|promoted conspiracy theories]] and [[#False or misleading statements|made many false and misleading statements]] during his campaigns and presidencies, to a degree unprecedented in American politics.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], items 49 and 53. --&gt; In 2024, [[Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York|he was found guilty of falsifying business records]],{{efn|Related to [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|his hush money payment]] to adult film actress [[Stormy Daniels]]}} becoming the first U.S. president convicted of a felony.{{efn|He faced more felony indictments related to [[FBI investigation into Donald Trump's handling of government documents|his mishandling of classified documents]] and interference in the 2020 election.}} He was the only U.S. president to be impeached twice†; the Senate acquitted him in both† cases.{{efn|[[First impeachment of Donald Trump|In 2019]] for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress, and [[Second impeachment of Donald Trump|in 2021]] for incitement of insurrection.}} [[Historical rankings of presidents of the United States|Scholars and historians rank Trump]] as one of the worst presidents in American history.†&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 54. --&gt; {{nbsp}} :{{small|†Subject to change following second term}} {{Notelist-talk}} {{collapsebottom}} *:::::How did this thread morph from a proposal to cancel #8 to a discussion of the general direction the article should take? This kind of scope expansion is rarely helpful. I would've suggested: &quot;Oppose. {{tq|The item above is the wrong thing to scrap out of a paragraph which has more obviously cuttable things.}}&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:03, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::It's usually helpful to back up opinions with reasons for why you think that way. It's deliberately collapsed so it doesn't get in the way of others. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 19:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' per nom. Need to start trimming the lead in prepartion to cover his second term. [[User:Spy-cicle|&lt;span style='color: 4019FF;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;&amp;nbsp;Spy-cicle💥&amp;nbsp;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Spy-cicle#top|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style='color: #1e1e1e;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;'''''Talk'''''?&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:43, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *I have no strong opinion on this one. But the mention of protests after his first election 100% is UNDUE in the lead. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:08, 19 November 2024 (UTC) **Agree on protests. They didn't lead anywhere.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 00:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ***So propose that separately. You're off topic here. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:15, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *:I am going to go ahead and say '''Oppose''' for removal of this one. Trump having no prior political experience and being an outsider is central to his brand and movement. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::a) Should him being an outsider also be included in the lede? :::b) [[MOS:LEAD]] says the lede should function as a summary of the body, including reflecting the importance placed on information. This prevents the lead developing separately from the body. Do you think the inclusion of this fact meets this? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Comment''' - It occurs to me that this sentence is not that different from much of the content already removed from the lead ''without objection''. The same arguments about &quot;still important&quot;, &quot;central&quot;, etc., could have been made about a lot of that (and have been in the past). What's different about this one? It's protected by a consensus that precludes BOLD removal. Without that consensus, I think this would have been removed ''without objection''. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *{{Strikethrough|'''Oppose'''. I agree with Tim and R. G. Checkers. Trump posturing himself as an opponent of the Washington elite and career politicians (no matter how disingenuous that actually is) is how he has made it this far as a politician and is relevant to his ongoing re-alignment of U.S. politics along right-wing populist lines. If you need proof, just look at how he's right now filling his cabinet with others who posture as &quot;outsiders&quot; and have no experience. This statement is the easiest way to get this across in the lead.}} — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 20:38, 20 November 2024 (UTC) **The sentence doesn't convey all this, it implies he's incompetent or merely unusual. The sentence should say what you're trying to communicate, e.g. &quot;Key to Trump's appeal is his image as a political outsider.&quot; Moreover, him having an image of an outsider is not mentioned in the body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:47, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ***Actually, your argument convinces me. I change my !vote to '''Support''' removal, as I think the &quot;political outsider&quot; angle is sufficiently conveyed by other parts of the lead (especially identifying his movement as &quot;right-wing populist&quot; in nature). — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ****{{small|Omg, someone was swayed by discussion. Somebody frame that and hang it on the wall! &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC)}} {{abot}} === Process question === We can cancel item 8, or we can supersede it with a new item 68. The difference is that cancellation would merely return the situation to normal BRD process (as if consensus 8 had never existed), while supersession would preclude this lead content without another consensus. Which do we want? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC) To my mind, we could cancel until there are repeated BOLD attempts to re-add this, thereby maybe justifying a superseding consensus. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:15, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Reverting consensus 20 == Bringing two comments down from [[Talk:Donald Trump#Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8]] to a new thread. They are addressing the sentence {{tq|His election and policies sparked numerous protests}} in the lede. I have no strong opinion on this one. But the mention of protests after his first election 100% is UNDUE in the lead. R. G. Checkers talk 00:08, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :Agree on protests. They didn't lead anywhere.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :'''Support''' The lead in general needs to be trimmed, I think we should focus on the information with the most [[WP:RS]] coverage for the lead. I am not sure how we will determine what constitutes as &quot;enough RS coverage for the lead,&quot; perhaps we will need another topic for this. &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::Some of us think it should be &quot;enough RS coverage for the body&quot; and &quot;enough body coverage for the lead&quot;. Body comes first. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::I think that would be a good determining factor. I suppose it would then be down to &quot;What constitutes enough body coverage for the lead?&quot; But I am again getting off topic and will leave this for another discussion &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The question is not of volume, but of quality. We need retrospective coverage that puts it into the context of his life/presidency to determine emphasis. And from this, as {{noping|Mandruss}} notes, lead follows body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' - Clearly UNDUE and maybe even RECENTISM that should have never been in the lead in the first place, and certainly not now. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC) **Could you expand on why you understand this fact is given [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]]? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:59, 19 November 2024 (UTC) **:Protests happen for every president. Just because the protest had a more people come does not mean it needs to be I in the lead. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC) **::{{tq|Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources.}} What does your comment have to do with UNDUE? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 21:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC) **:::Look at this sentence instead: {{green|Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the''' depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement''', the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery}} [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC) **::::An article can discuss information in great depth, in a lot of text etc while still maintaining [[WP:NPOV|a neutral point of view]]. The way it can do that is by {{tq|fairly represent[ing] all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources}}. You need to determine the emphasis of reliable sources first: looking at information and thinking &quot;that's a lot of detail [for something like this or otherwise]&quot; is insufficient for determining if it is DUE. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 09:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support removal''' Needs to be significant trimming in the lead to fit in the 2nd term info. The protests against him are less important to cover relative to other infomation in the lead. [[User:Spy-cicle|&lt;span style='color: 4019FF;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;&amp;nbsp;Spy-cicle💥&amp;nbsp;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Spy-cicle#top|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style='color: #1e1e1e;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;'''''Talk'''''?&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 06:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose''', as I think it's fair to say his latest election has also led to protests. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:54, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. &quot;Other stuff may happen that we may want to include&quot; isn't a rationale for removing. The protests included the largest single-day protest in U.S. history at the time (it's been surpassed by the George Floyd protests in 2020). AFAIK, no other president's election has resulted in protests, especially not with the protesters far outnumbering the spectators at the inauguration. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:01, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *:It is mentioned briefly in the body. This is not defining of trump himself. We don't need room for things that are going to happen we need room for things that ''already have happened''. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Question''' What has changed to constitute this change? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 04:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *:We (with Farkle Griffen doing most of the heavy lifting) are finally taking on serious lead reduction, essentially raising the DUE bar for the lead. The lead is down 40% from two weeks ago. Under discussion is whether this item still clears the bar. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' the poor [[pussyhat]]s didn't accomplish anything. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support'''. A little bit below the threshold of importance for inclusion in the lead. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 20:45, 20 November 2024 (UTC) * '''Support''', not particularly notable. [[User:Irruptive Creditor|Irruptive Creditor]] ([[User talk:Irruptive Creditor|talk]]) 08:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == PEIS revisited, yet again == According to my experimentation, the addition of ~12 typical-sized citations would cause the article to exceed the system-imposed [[WP:PEIS]] limit. When that happens, templates near the bottom of the article start breaking with an error message. Otherwise, the article is fine; nobody is even aware there's a problem unless they scroll down there and see the message. Still, it's a problem worth addressing and I think it's better to be proactive than reactive about this. Possible solutions: *Reduce [[WP:OVERCITE]]. *Remove content, with the associated citations. *This was a recurring problem in the past (see archive). Eventually, someone removed one or more navboxes at the bottom, which freed up a huge amount of PEIS. I don't know if there is more potential reduction in that area. Other kinds of templates will also contribute to PEIS, but I don't know how much without looking into it more. Anyway, the PEIS limit would appear to impose an arbitrary upper limit on article size, assuming the number of citations is roughly proportional to article size&amp;mdash;and this article is very close to that limit. Maybe that's not all bad? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:35, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :Lots of overciting, been meaning to tackle it but it's a lot of reading. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :Did the change to short footnotes cause any part of this? If so I'm sorry. I will try to lessen overcites when I run across them. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 19:48, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::I see a total of six footnotes. Not a significant contribution to the problem. Thanks for asking. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::Oh boy. Page size said 15672 words today, which is over the top limit at [[WP:SPLIT]]. I have never seen an article fail but golly, I'm retracting my proposal to rewrite Early life without prejudice. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I'm possibly looking in the next weeks at proposing we apply [[User:Trainsandotherthings/The Earth Test|The Earth Test]], which should be appropriate given the extensive use of [[Template:Main]]. Does anyone here have initial rejections of this as my activities are lining up with that direction. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Looks like an arbitrary limit, and Wikipedia hates arbitrary limits. Why not get us as far as possible into summary style and then see where we are? That might well be all we need in the area of article reduction. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Update: Edits have increased the ~12 to ~37. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Merge the offices in Trump's infobox? &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;I think that we should merge the offices in Trump's infobox. What do y'all think?&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == Here is a new infobox I've designed in my [[User:WorldMappings/sandbox|user sandbox]]. {{cot|Proposed infobox. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)}} {{Infobox officeholder | image = Donald Trump official portrait.jpg&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE the picture without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 1. --&gt; | alt = Official White House presidential portrait. Headshot of Trump smiling in front of the U.S. flag, wearing a dark blue suit jacket with American flag lapel pin, white shirt, and light blue necktie. | caption = Official portrait, 2017 | order = 45th &amp; 47th&lt;!-- DO NOT ADD A LINK. Please discuss any proposal on the talk page first. Most recent discussion at [[Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 65#Link-ifying &quot;45th&quot; in the Infobox?]] had a weak consensus to keep the status-quo (no link). --&gt; | office = President of the United States | vicepresident = [[JD Vance]] (elect) | term_start = January 20, 2025 | succeeding = [[Joe Biden]] | vicepresident1 = [[Mike Pence]] | term_start1 = January 20, 2017 | term_end1 = January 20, 2021 | predecessor1 = [[Barack Obama]] | successor1 = Joe Biden | birth_name = Donald John Trump | birth_date = {{Birth date and age|1946|6|14}} | birth_place = [[Queens]], New York City, U.S.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE (or add to) this location without prior consensus; please see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 2. --&gt; | party = [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] (1987–1999, 2009–2011, 2012–present) | otherparty = {{plainlist}} * [[Reform Party of the United States of America|Reform]] (1999–2001) * [[Democratic Party (United States)|Democratic]] (2001–2009) * [[Independent politician|Independent]] (2011–2012) {{endplainlist}} | spouse = {{plainlist}} * {{marriage|[[Ivana Zelníčková]]|April 9, 1977|December 11, 1990|end=divorced}} * {{marriage|[[Marla Maples]]|December 20, 1993|June 8, 1999|end=divorced}} * {{marriage|[[Melania Knauss]]|January 22, 2005}} {{endplainlist}} | children = {{flatlist| * [[Donald Jr.]] * [[Ivanka Trump|Ivanka]] * [[Eric Trump|Eric]] * [[Tiffany Trump|Tiffany]] * [[Barron Trump|Barron]] }} | mother = [[Mary Anne Trump]] | father = [[Fred Trump]] | relatives = [[Trump family]] | awards = [[List of awards and honors received by Donald Trump|Full list]] | alma_mater = [[University of Pennsylvania]] ([[Bachelor of Science|BS]])&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE this college or diploma without prior consensus, see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 63. --&gt; | net_worth = &lt;!-- Keep empty, per [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 47. --&gt; | occupation = {{hlist|[[Political career of Donald Trump|Politician]]|[[Business career of Donald Trump|businessman]]|[[Media career of Donald Trump|media personality]]}} | signature = Donald Trump (Presidential signature).svg | signature_alt = Donald J. Trump stylized autograph, in ink | website = {{#invoke:list|unbulleted|{{URL|https://www.donaldjtrump.com|Campaign website}}|{{URL|https://www.trumplibrary.gov/|Presidential library}}|{{URL|https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/|White House archives}}}} | module = {{Listen|pos=center|embed=yes|filename=Donald Trump speaks on declaration of Covid-19 as a Global Pandemic by the World Health Organization.ogg|title=Donald Trump's voice|type=speech|description=Donald Trump speaks on the declaration of [[COVID-19 pandemic|COVID-19 as a global pandemic]] by the [[World Health Organization]].&lt;br /&gt;Recorded March 11, 2020}} }} {{cob}} [[User:WorldMappings|WorldMappings]] ([[User talk:WorldMappings|talk]]) 21:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC) == Proposal to add brief description of Trumpism in lead == Should the lead contain a brief description of [[Trumpism]], which it currently mentions without further explanation? I added one, but Farkle Griffin [[Special:Diff/1258652829|reverted]] me, citing length concerns. I agree with the recent lead cuts, but the statement &quot;Trump created Trumpism&quot; without further description is meaningless, and I think it benefits readers to briefly explain what he stands for politically without requiring them to click through and read the lead of the other article. Here is a brief, 12-word proposal: &quot;In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement, {{tq|characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, [[protectionism]], and loyalty to himself.}}&quot; The specifics are up for debate. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 21:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :I completely disagree with this proposal. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 15:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Neither support nor oppose here, but what are your thoughts on simply including it in a footnote? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 22:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::I think it's important enough to state outside of a footnote. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 22:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :Maybe something along these lines? :&quot;In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]], during which he promoted [[nationalism]], [[anti-establishment]] rhetoric, and [[List of conspiracy theories promoted by Donald Trump|conspiracy theories]]. His policies and rhetoric led to the [[Trumpism]] movement.&quot; [[User:Rexxx7777|Rexxx7777]] ([[User talk:Rexxx7777|talk]]) 22:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::I prefer a mention of &quot;[[right-wing populism]]&quot; to &quot;anti-establishment rhetoric&quot;, as that is how this article currently describes his positions; the other article also helps connect Trump's rise to the global context of emergent figures such as [[Viktor Orbán]], [[Giorgia Meloni]], [[Jair Bolsonaro]], and [[Javier Milei]]. I also think mentioning &quot;'[[America First (policy)|America First]]' nationalism&quot; is better than &quot;nationalism&quot; alone, as that article helps explain the non-interventionist and economic protectionist elements of Trump's brand of nationalism, which is not implied by simply stating &quot;nationalism&quot;. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *At a minimum, this should be added to the body before considering adding it to the lede. Trumpism is not really discussed in the body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *:Perhaps not all in one sentence, but the body does in fact mention Trumpism, right-wing populism, America First, and protectionism, and even his cult of personality. I think my proposal does a good job of tying this all together. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *::It doesn't relate these to Trumpism. It also doesn't mention the &quot;loyalty to himself&quot; comment. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *:::What is Trumpism but the rhetoric, ideology, and political actions of Donald Trump, which form the bulk of this article's content? The last part about &quot;loyalty&quot; I am less confident in than the rest, and will bow to opposition to it. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:57, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *::::I am not opposed, I am just asking that the lede doesn't develop separately from the body per the [[MOS:LEAD|manual of style]]. The lede shouldn't be the only place that &lt;del&gt;defines Trumpism.&lt;/del&gt; &lt;ins&gt;defines Trumpism. How you define Trumpism is also at odds with the lede of [[Trumpism]]: {{tq|a political movement in the United States that comprises the political ideologies associated with Donald Trump and his political base.}}&lt;/ins&gt;[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I am slightly modifying my proposal to this: {{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which gave rise to [[Trumpism]], a political movement characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[protectionism]].}} — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 00:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::I think loyalty to Trump is an important part of it.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 03:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yeah, but it's kinda implied by the name. Let's give our readers the credit of putting together that &quot;Trumpists&quot; are loyal to Trump [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 05:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::For a few weeks we have been discussing the need for this kind of addition in multiple talk pages. Some editors agreed, some didn't. For me this seems mandatory, since Trump winning the first election is the most notable event of his life and it needs proper context. In my opinion Goszei additions to the second paragraph manage to make that description clear and concise. Editor @[[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] reverted them with explanation &quot;overdetail&quot;. I disagree, there is a missing flow in the lead that is filled in by these additions, they are also not overdetailed and the second paragraph has space for them. ::::Goszei edit: ::::{{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which gave rise to [[Trumpism]], a political movement characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[protectionism]].}} ::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258693326&amp;oldid=1258687981 the reversion] by Nikkimaria: ::::{{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement.}} ::::Also another detail that said &quot;and focused on luxury accommodation&quot; was removed. It helps to define what Trump was known for. Before that the lead went in even more detail with the kind of properties Trump invested in. ::::Similarly to what @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] is saying I do not believe that the &quot;loyal to himself&quot; part is needed. ::::I've done 2 reversions in the last 24h so I'll avoid going further, someone else can reinsert these if there is consensus. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:31, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The lead does not need any more detail, particularly (as noted above) detail that is not in the body. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::but they do are in the body. you could argue there is a repetition from general rethoric before being a president to the official acts, but it's different imo. ::::::and him having mostly luxury accomodations has now completelly disappeared, I'll edit that in since I don't see any reason to remove it and gives proper context. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 00:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Added the details back by connecting them directly on Trump and not on Trumpism, as it was noted here before. Should be good now. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 00:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Nope, definitely not good, those additions should be reverted until you've got consensus for them. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::The &quot;luxury accomodations&quot; part was present in the lead for a very long time in an even more developed form, so why revert that? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Regarding the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1259044948&amp;oldid=1259032069 main diff] that has been reverted by @[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ::::::::::In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] &lt;u&gt;characterized by [[Right-wing populism|right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[Protectionism|protectionism]]&lt;/u&gt;, which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement. ::::::::::How do other editors feel? Is this relevant enough for the lead and properly present on body? ::::::::::@[[User:Goszei|Goszei]] @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] @[[User:Rexxx7777|Rexxx7777]] @[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] @[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] (editors that participated in this discussion) @[[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] @[[User:Mandruss|Mandruss]] @[[User:Thistheyear2023|Thistheyear2023]] @[[User:Димитрий Улянов Иванов|Димитрий Улянов Иванов]] @[[User:PizzaKing13|PizzaKing13]] @[[User:750h+|750h+]] @[[User:BootsED|BootsED]] (editors of the newer 50 edits) ::::::::::If you got the time please motivate your reasoning in favor or against this addition, so that we can look for consensus. If this is too close I will consider doing a RfC for it. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::I'd support it's inclusion as it appears to be an accurate description. Thanks, [[User:Димитрий Улянов Иванов|Димитрий Улянов Иванов]] ([[User talk:Димитрий Улянов Иванов|talk]]) 14:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::Since you pinged me, I'll reply. '''I completely agree with [[User:Moxy|Moxy]]'s edit, and therefore disagree with the inclusion of content'''. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 14:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::I think the most important thing is that it keeps mention of Trumpism. I like the edit before it was removed, and thus support the inclusion. If the consensus is to remove the edit, as long as Trumpism is still mentioned, I am okay with it. The page for Trumpism mentions how it is right-wing populist as nationalist. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 20:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :What would this ass we do not already say? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::For me it is a mather of order and logical steps. This is what he said and did before being a president, what made him popular. The formulation is in the right place in the lead (second paragraph) and feels more direct that just refering to policies later on. This is consistent with the lead of [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]], for exemple (no comparison between individuals but of how to develop an high quality complex lead). Antisemitism is mentioned in paragraph 2, while he was not in power, despite references to his antisemitic policies obviously having a spot later. ::For me, this how a lead should be written. Anything else is sloppy and with major logical holes. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::So this would not add anything, just change the order of the lead? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == muslim ban formulation on lead == @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] Since I did one revert already on the page I will refrain to go further and I am opening a discussion to discuss that precise phrase. This is the version that was recently added and that I find the best: {{tq|In his first term, he [[Executive Order 13769|ordered a travel ban]] limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries}} and this is yours: {{tq|In his first term, he ordered the &quot;[[Executive Order 13769|Muslim ban]]&quot; limiting refugees}} I really feel like the first formulation is extremelly more clear. It manages to say in a couple of words what that executive order was about, previous formulations and your latest are difficult to grasp for someone who is not already familiar with the topic. Why did you feel the need for the change? And what do other editors think? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 23:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :I also want to point out that the current lead is not too long. Editors have done an egregious job in the last few weeks to shorten it and put elements in the right place. So, in my opinion, that should not be an argument to prefer one over the other. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 00:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I support the original version. The new version is not clear enough. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 01:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::Agree. The original version is more comprehensive at the cost of only a few extra words if length is concerned. &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 01:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I only re-added it because your edit summary removing it had to do with a different edit. You're still free to revert it now that you've included an explanation. :However, to respond to your post here, I don't see what information it loses, and it also removes a somewhat [[WP:LINKCLARITY|unclear link]] &quot;ordered a travel ban&quot; in favor if the order's common name. :If anything I think this is clearer. The ''point'' of the bill was to limit Muslim immigration, but, as previously phrased it sounds like he ordered a general travel ban that ''just so happened'' to limit refugees. Using the order's name adds information, and makes this point better and much more concisely. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::The way the first reads to me implies that it '''limits''' Muslim refugees from entering the country by placing the limitation on ''Muslim-majority countries.'' The second one, to me more-so implies an outright ban to all Muslim immigration which would in turn limit refugees &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 01:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::That's fair. I still think the item's name should be used instead of the current link. :::But also, wouldn't this reasoning extend to the other items in the sentence as well? :::&quot;Trump ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries, funded the Trump wall expanding the U.S.–Mexico border wall, and implemented a family separation policy at the border, separating migrant children and parents.&quot; [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::We need to achieve a balance between brevity and accurately explaining the policies. &quot;Funded the Trump wall&quot; borders on too vague as well, and doesn't convey that the wall already existed and that he expanded its length. My preferred wording here is {{tq|ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees, expanded the wall on the U.S.{{endash}}Mexico border, and implemented a family separation policy.}} — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 02:04, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::&quot;We need to achieve a balance&quot; :::::Are you suggesting there's a way to measure that balance? Or are you just saying yours is perfectly balanced and we should use that? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 05:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::My proposal contains as many words as I think are needed to explain without being inaccurate or misleading. Other editors can disagree, especially on the &quot;misleading&quot; part, and propose their own. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 05:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I agree with what Goszei is doing, trying to refer to policy not only with a catch all journalistic nickname but actually working on a proper, short summarization that fairly represents the policy. One is easier to do but actually useless to the reader, the other is complex but carries meaning. His latest proposition, {{tq|ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees}}, seems good to me. Also because there were ecceptions on the list of countries targeted. I will edit that in and let's see if we can agree on it. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 11:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tq|Muslim ban}} falsely implies that the ban applied to all Muslims, but {{tq|ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries}} also misrepresents what the order actually did (it suspended all entry from those countries, not just refugees, which was a separate provision). If we want to indicate that the ban targeted Muslims (which civil rights organizations and similar groups claimed was its not-so-secret purpose, which was supported by reporting such as [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/29/trump-asked-for-a-muslim-ban-giuliani-says-and-ordered-a-commission-to-do-it-legally/]), perhaps we could compromise with the wording {{tq|ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees}}. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:47, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == Has Trump been convicted of a felony? &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Trump has not been convicted of a felony&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == The jury had merely returned a verdict. Only a judge can convict someone - a judge can still throw the jury's verdict away. While extremely rare, it can happen. Wikipedia's definition agrees: &quot;A convict is &quot;a person found guilty of a crime and sentenced by a court&quot; or &quot;a person serving a sentence in prison&quot;. Source: [[Convict|Convict - Wikipedia]] Notice it says &quot;found guilty of a crime&quot; AND &quot;sentenced by a court.&quot; Only a judge can do the latter. According to the American Bar: &quot;The''' decision of the jury doesn t take effect until the judge enters a judgment on the decision''' - that is, an order that it be filed in public records.&quot; Source: [https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/judgment/ How Courts Work - Americanbar.org &quot;Judgement&quot;] So no, Trump has not been convicted of any felony. All that has happened is a jury has returned a verdict. Please change the lede to reflect Wikipedia's own definition of convict as well as basic knowledge of how courts work. Thank you! [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 08:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :This has already been explained to you elsewhere on this page, but here goes with another attempt.{{pb}}As I told you, Wikipedia may not be used as a source for itself. So why did you link to that Wikipedia article again?{{pb}}As someone else told you, &quot;convicted&quot; (verb or adjective) and &quot;convict&quot; (noun) are not equivalent. One can be convicted without being a convict. Is English your first language?{{pb}}See [[Wikipedia:No original research]]. Excerpted from its very first paragraph:{{tq2|To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are {{em|directly related}} to the topic of the article and {{em|directly support}}{{efn|A source &quot;directly supports&quot; a given piece of material if the information is present {{em|explicitly}} in the source so that using this source to support the material is not a violation of this policy against original research. For questions about where and how to place citations, see [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]], {{section link|Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section|Citations}}, etc.}} the material being presented.}}You have yet to present a single reliable source that mentions Trump and says he has not been convicted. Therefore the &quot;directly&quot; requirement has not been met.{{pb}}I will close this as resolved if no one else has commented within 24 hours. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::Did you not see the American Bar website I posted? Lol ::Convict is a noun: &quot;CONVICT is a person '''convicted''' of and under sentence for a crime. How to use convict in a sentence.&quot; ::You do know the judge can throw away the verdict right? The fact is, he's not convicted of a felony. Prove he is if you can. Show me. It's not up to me to prove a negative - it's up to you to prove a positive. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::Since you apparently have a hearing problem, I'm not wasting any more of my time trying to speak to you. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If Trump is a convicted felon, he will not be able to travel to the UK and Canada. ::::Will he be able to travel to the UK and Canada? Yes or no? ::::[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/why-donald-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-yet/ar-BB1no6oV Why Donald Trump Isn't A Convicted Felon (Yet)] ::::[https://www.foxnews.com/politics/yale-law-professor-outlines-potential-trump-legal-strategy-following-guilty-verdict-nation-needs?msockid=1248a7002eb9682a14dcb4682f186918]https://www.foxnews.com/politics/yale-law-professor-outlines-potential-trump-legal-strategy-following-guilty-verdict-nation-needs?msockid=1248a7002eb9682a14dcb4682f186918 &quot;You are not convicted until the judge enters that judgment of guilt.&quot; [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::FINALLY, you produce sources that at least meet the minimum policy requirements. Now it's a question of [[WP:WEIGHT]], since many other reliable sources say he's been convicted. I'll leave that to others. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Here I will add some references, I can see you have kinda had an unpleasant time with this topic, I will try and be more prim and proper with my efforts. The most relevant section here is &quot;Despite media reports, Rubenfeld insisted that it’s “not true” that Trump is already a “convicted felon,” arguing that one is “not a convicted felon because of a jury verdict.” ::::::“You are not convicted until the judge enters that judgment of guilt. Now, in New York, it’s very likely that [https://nypost.com/2024/06/07/us-news/judge-merchan-alerts-trump-lawyer-manhattan-das-office-to-facebook-comment-purportedly-made-by-a-jurors-cousin/ Judge Merchan] will enter that judgment of guilt against Trump on the same day that he issues sentencing. That’d be July 11th.” https://nypost.com/2024/06/08/us-news/yale-law-professor-says-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-despite-guilty-verdict-heres-why/ [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 13:21, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::See [[WP:NYPOST]]... [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 07:13, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::I see you deleted my question, fair enough it is here. I saw it explained by a US lawyer that one cannot be a felon until sentencing, especially as that can involve discharge without conviction. And its not just a technicality, the restrictions of felony status don't kick in until that time. I asked the AI and it says the same. And the previous commentator has a few references saying the exact same. It seems the most correct phrase is that he &quot;has been found guilty&quot;. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 13:15, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::This is somewhat accurate, to provide a bit more clarity: conviction does not occur until ''after'' sentencing, with there still being time for additional legal proceedings such as appeals beforehand - so yes he has technically been found ''guilty'' by a jury, however he is '''not''' a convicted felon &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :He has been convicted, he has just not been sentenced, which is independent of a guilty verdict. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::I have to agree with @[[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] here ::From my understanding Trump has been found guilty by a jury in certain cases, but he has not yet been ''formally'' '''convicted''' because the judge has not entered a conviction by imposing a sentence. Conviction only occurs ''after'' sentencing, and in some cases, there may be additional legal proceedings (like appeals) before that happens. &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::I think the point being missed is that our understanding has nothing to do with it. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:53, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Well this is not really an understanding but more-so just the way that the legal system works... I have not yet had a look at the sources to see what [[WP:RS]] is supporting that he is a '''convicted''' felon, but if it is just news outlets then I would not think we should rely on them for something such as this for the sake of accuracy. Wikipedia does not have any concrete rules but more-so guidelines so if we are reporting on what RS has said about this, then I think we should do so with the indisputable legal facts in mind and use sources that know what they are talking about rather than just regurgitating what a reporter is claiming ::::If there is something I have missed or overlooked then please disregard my comment &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::No, you may have a point. I vaguely recall doing something like that once or twice in the distant past. This thread got off to a bad start because the OP has no editing knowledge, and the first five comments are basically useless distractions. I think an experienced editor should start a new thread and we could close this one. It's likely to end up a long one. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I understood the entire time you wanted me to link to a news source or something like that. But I shouldn't have had to because Trump not being a convicted felon is truism. It doesn't need a source. It'd be like asking for a source that Trump isn't Santa Claus or a German citizen. It's just a fact he isn't. You essentially put the burden of proof on the defendant. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:26, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Yeah it is just news outlets. But I added and the other guys added news outlets quoting a legal professor showing it isn't true. And then we have the Bar association, where we can see the professor is right. I will attach the sequence of trial. Here is the key bit. &quot;The decision of the jury doesn t take effect until the judge enters a judgment on the decision - that is, an order that it be filed in public records.&quot;. And that hasn't happened yet. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/judgment/ [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 23:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}}{{u|Liger404}} Thankyou for your work here. Unfortunately, what you're describing above is considered [[WP:OR|original research]]: have a read of the &quot;Smith and Jones&quot; example in that page. None of the secondary sources you or other editors have found at this time are considered [[WP:RS|reliable]], I've had a quick look and couldn't find anything either. The best place to go from here would be to ask the [[WP:RDH|reference desk]] or [[WP:LAW|Wikiproject Law]] if reliable sources verify this. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 10:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :It's not OR to check that the words we use accurately reflect their definitions. News media are not expert sources for law, they are merely sources for what happened. If they use terms incorrectly, then we should fix it. :Technically, a jury returns a guilty verdict and a judge enters a conviction. The judge may however ignore the jury's verdict of guilt and not record a conviction or enter a conviction following a verdict of not guilty. Also, the conviction is not considered final until all appeals have run out. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 11:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|The Four Deuces}} I am possibly stretching the Smith and Jones example too far. I don't like relying on news sources, so I don't want to take too firm a stand. I hope {{u|voorts}} doesn't mind if I ping him in here. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::He was found guilty by a jury. In New York, a judgment of conviction is issued after sentencing. However, the distinction between being found guilty by a jury and a court issuing a judgment is so in the weeds that I don't think it matters which one we use. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 14:16, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thankyou voorts. This addresses my main concern that we as non-subject matter experts were unaware of relevant facts. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 16:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I'd say it matters whether this article's lead says Trump is the first U.S. president convicted of a felony. A lot. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:10, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::voorts is a lawyer from New York, and is speaking from such a perspective as to whether the distinction is important. I imagine the alternative would be &quot;found guilty by a jury of felony crimes&quot; etc, do you see a significant loss from such a switch? Alternatively &quot;convicted felon&quot; would be used and the reference to primary sources would be footnoted. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 18:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If reliable secondary sources say convicted, we should say the same. See [[WP:VNT]]. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 20:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::How do you think this applies the fifth example given in the #How can we tell section of [[WP:WSAW]], also an essay? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:56, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I don't think it's &quot;obviously inaccurate&quot; to say that Trump was &quot;convicted&quot; because colloquially, a jury finding someone guilty is referred to as a conviction. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 21:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Makes sense, thankyou for your input here. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:22, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::I'm unconvinced it's wise to use a colloquialism for something that important. It's an encyclopedia. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I do not think the standard we are seeking here is being excusably inaccurate. If he was going to be sentenced and become a felon in the next few weeks, I would agree. But this is a detail that matters, Trump being the first Felon President would be historic. However because he will not be a felon until sentenced, and because sentencing has not been postponed until after he is president it is not clear that Trump will ever become a felon. Therefore it is actually a substantial error that we are saying this, as it is not true and is quite possibly never going to become true. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Sorry that is supposed to show that sentencing HAS being postponed. So the feloney status will not be applied for at least 4 years, if ever. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:29, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::It matter substantially because the sentencing is now delayed until at least after the Presidency and possibly indefinitely. This fundamentally changes an essential fact. Trump at this stage does not seem likely to ever actually become a felon, or at least not for 4 years. The distinction matters for this reason, because it fundamentally changes the feloney outcome. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I disagree, because even Wikipedia states only a judge can convict: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdict#Criminal_law ::::&quot;A verdict of guilty in a criminal case generally requires evidence to be tested and true beyond reasonable doubt and is normally followed by a judgment of conviction rendered by judge, which in turn be followed by sentencing.&quot; ::::It should be consistent. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :The news source I attached is the Washington post. Surely that's reliable? But perhaps more importantly it's quoting a US law professor. I have the guys YouTube video on the matter if that helps? Surely expert legal opinion is the highest level of source? [[Special:Contributions/115.189.93.186|115.189.93.186]] ([[User talk:115.189.93.186|talk]]) 00:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Surely the New York post and a Yale law Professor are reputable sources? A mainstream newspaper and an Ivy league subject matter expert. https://nypost.com/2024/06/08/us-news/yale-law-professor-says-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-despite-guilty-verdict-heres-why/ or if you want the actual Podcast, so the direct words of a Yale Constitutional law Professor, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u23t__ysVjU&amp;ab_channel=ProfessorJedRubenfeld [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::The NY Post is not a reliable source - see [[WP:NYPOST]] for the reasons why and the multiple discussions surrounding that. One law professor is certainly a reliable source for their own opinion - but that does ''not'' mean that their opinion is to be treated as fact and reported in &quot;wikivoice&quot; (i.e. saying &quot;Trump was convicted&quot; or not). That source would be reliable to report that in the opinion of that professor, Trump is not a convicted felon at this time. But the plurality (if not majority) of reliable sources are reporting he has been convicted. It matters not what the &quot;technical&quot; definition of the word is - it matters how it's used in common English. In common English, the word &quot;convicted&quot; can either mean &quot;final judgment has been passed&quot; ''or'' &quot;a jury has returned a verdict of guilty and there is no sign that it is going to be overturned&quot;.{{pb}}That said, I think there's a simple solution here. Why do we not just change &quot;convicted of a felony&quot; to &quot;found guilty of a felony (by a jury)&quot; with the parenthetical not being necessary in my opinion but... -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &amp;#124; [[User:berchanhimez|me]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:berchanhimez|talk to me!]] 08:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yes my same proposal was a change in language to &quot;Has been found guilty&quot;, although perhaps is is worth saying &quot;Has been found guilty in the ongoing case xyz&quot; . Felon is common parlance means someone who lives with the legal restrictions of a felony. Travel,voting guns rights, jobs ect. Because Trump does not yet have felony status, and now with the sentencing indefinitely delayed until at least after the presidency, Trump will not have felony status, and may never. So he isn't a &quot;felon&quot; in the way you would use the word when say, selling him a gun, filling out a travel visa or a job application. I do also have a Hindustan Times report that sames the same, referencing the same professor basically. I see they are considered semi accurate on that list. https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/us-news/trump-not-a-convicted-felon-yet-yale-law-professor-trashes-hush-money-trial-verdict-crime-is-so-unclear-101717926723371.html [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The word &quot;felon&quot; is not currently anywhere in the article and is not currently an issue. If someone tried to add it, I would oppose simply because it's unnecessarily [[MOS:LABEL|&quot;labelly&quot;]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Well ok, but it says &quot;convicted of a felony&quot; which is incorrect. And its incorrect in a way that matters, because it's no longer clear that this will ever happen, and if it will happen seems certain to be years away. And I would say a reasonable person reading that line would interpret it as Trump now being a convicted felon. Thus the language is misleading in an important way about a historically significant event. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 09:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == order of sentences on lead == I tried to change the order of sentences on lead, following the logic that would describe his first presidency and comments on third paragraph, and putting informations related to officials trials and such on fourth. There is no perfect &quot;chronological&quot; order either way, and that felt smoother to me, and it avoids mixing together two different kind of facts that are taking different paths (journalistic commentary or judicial system). @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] why do you feel that the other formulation is better? For other editors, this is the diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258711727&amp;oldid=1258705669 [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == description of his political approach on lead == For a few weeks we have been discussing in multiple sections on talk the need to have something that would relate to Trump rise to power. Some editors agreed, some didn't. For me this seems mandatory, since Trump winning the first election is the most notable event of his life and it needs proper context. In my opinion Goszei additions to the second paragraph manage to make that description clear and concise. Editor @[[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] reverted them with explanation &quot;overdetail&quot;. I disagree, there is a missing flow in the lead that is filled in by these additions, they are also not overdetailed and the second paragraph has space for them. Goszei edit: {{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which gave rise to [[Trumpism]], a political movement characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[protectionism]].}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258693326&amp;oldid=1258687981 the reversion] by Nikkimaria: {{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement.}} Also another detail that said &quot;and focused on luxury accommodation&quot; was removed. It helps to define what Trump was known for. Before that the lead went in even more detail with the kind of properties Trump invested in. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I had not noticed that there was already an [[Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal to add brief description of Trumpism in lead|ongoing discussion]] for this. Please refer to that one! [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:28, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == It makes no sense to separate military service from government service == There are civilian contractors who are distinct from the military. Civilian contractors are not part of the government, whereas the military is part of the government's department of defense. In fact, the chief commander of the military is the president. Indeed, the department of defense is the largest department of the government in terms of number of employees. Therefore, the sentence 'Trump won the 2016 presidential election and became the first U.S. president without prior military or government service.' makes no sense and should be reworded to 'Trump won the 2016 presidential election and became the first U.S. president without prior government service.' Just my 2 cents. [[Special:Contributions/206.176.149.191|206.176.149.191]] ([[User talk:206.176.149.191|talk]]) 12:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :But a teacher is not in the military, and an artillery man is not a teacher. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::I would say teacher has government service at the city level. ::[[Special:Contributions/216.165.197.66|216.165.197.66]] ([[User talk:216.165.197.66|talk]]) 13:07, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::Err, yes, that is my point, they are however not soldiers. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :This has been brought up over and over, see talk page archives. We have an existing [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]], [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 8. Unless you have significant new arguments, we will not revisit that consensus.{{pb}}Anyway, there is [[Talk:Donald Trump#Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8|a proposal to remove this factoid from the lead]], using the &quot;significant new argument&quot; that it no longer earns its keep in our substantially-reduced lead. It's looking like the proposal will pass, which would moot this discussion. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Have always found it weird that when these templates are implemented..... the primary data people are interested in place of birth age etc are now moved to the bottom of the template. &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold;color:darkblue&quot;&gt;[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]&lt;/span&gt;🍁 01:42, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Watering down of criticism == Re; [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1258943656 this reversion] of my edits. Hi {{u|ValarianB}}, I explained my edits as aligning the text with the sources. If you would like to reinstate the previous version, ensure the text better aligns with the sources. For context, I changed a sentence from: :{{tq|His embrace of far-right extremism and harsher rhetoric against his political enemies have been described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, [[Donald Trump and fascism|fascist]]}} :→ {{tq|His harsher rhetoric against his political enemies has been described by some historians and scholars as authoritarian, [[Donald Trump and fascism|fascist]]}}. I also removed several sources for not verifying this information and the descriptor of embracing far-right extremism. I did this per my readthrough of the sources, seeing if they were verifying the text, seen below. {{collapse top}} {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; ! |Populist |Fascist |Authoritarian | |- |https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/27/magazine/trump-rallies-rhetoric.html |Yes: NYTvoice |Debated, some changed their mind as of 2021 | | |- |https://www.vox.com/2023/11/14/23958866/trump-vermin-authoritarian-democracy | |Debated in 2021, Voxvoice yes | | |- |https://www.axios.com/2023/11/13/trump-vermin-fascist-language-speech | |Some historians describing rhetoric 2024 | | |- |https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/trumps-fascistic-rhetoric-only-emphasizes-the-stakes-in-2024 | |NewYorkerVoice |NewYorkerVoice | |- |https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/11/donald-trump-authoritarian-second-term | |VanityFairVoice |VanityFairVoice | |- |https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/07/trump-second-term-isolationist-fascism/674791/ |SME scholar |&quot;Variety of academics&quot; SME: Could be a fascist in 2nd term based on promises |SME scholar | |- |https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-compares-political-opponents-vermin-root-alarming-historians/story?id=104847748 | |Ambiguous: some historians or historians generally | | |- |https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/12/trump-racist-rhetoric-immigrants-00183537 | | |Some experts |Some experts &quot;Nazi ideology&quot; |- |https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/10/trump-authoritarian-rhetoric-hitler-mussolini/680296/ |SME historian | | | |- |https://www.axios.com/2024/10/11/mark-milley-trump-fascist-bob-woodward-book | | | | |- |https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/10/12/mark-milley-donald-trump-fascist/ | | | | |- |https://www.thebulwark.com/p/mattis-told-woodward-he-agreed-trump | | | | |- |https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/22/politics/trump-fascist-john-kelly/index.html | | | | |} {{collapse bottom}} As seen, only four sources are discussing the attitudes of historians and scholars as classes re; 2024 conduct. I clarified that this was held by &quot;some&quot; scholars and historians; none of the sources made a stronger claim except ambiguously the ABC News piece on historians views of fascism; the rest all qualified with &quot;some&quot;. Many sources didn't discuss historians or historians at all. Those four sources actually discussing attitudes among historians and scholars were retained. Two sources mentioned populism, both subject matter experts, although only one in the context of Trump's 2024 rhetoric and neither commented on beliefs among historians and scholars as a class. Populism as a descriptor was removed, it is already mentioned in a more relevant place earlier: {{tq|Trump's political positions and rhetoric were described as right-wing populist.}} Only one source supported the descriptor &quot;embraced far-right extremism&quot;, and it was entirely sourced to the analysis of a non-subject-matter-expert journalist; insufficient for an [[WP:EXTRAORDINARY|extraordinary]] claim. Citing academic consensus to news pieces is already insufficient but is retained until further reading can be performed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 16:35, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :{{Ping|Rollinginhisgrave}} I agree with you. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 00:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Still counting votes == {{atop|Resolved per OP. Eligible for manual archival after this time tomorrow. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:23, 22 November 2024 (UTC)}} [[Peter Baker (journalist)|Peter Baker]]'s analysis says today that when the votes are all in, Mr. Trump's total will fall below 50%. We should prepare to state that he ran three times, was elected twice, and never won the popular vote.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=The ‘Landslide’ That Wasn’t: Trump and Allies Pump Up His Narrow Victory|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/22/us/politics/trump-election-landslide.html|last=Baker|first=Peter|date=November 22, 2024|access-date=November 22, 2024|work=The New York Times}}&lt;/ref&gt; {{talk-reflist}} -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:47, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :It does not require winning the majority of popular vote to win the popular vote. In European presidential elections, the winner almost never wins the majority of the popular vote, only more popular vote than the other candidates. [[Special:Contributions/216.165.197.66|216.165.197.66]] ([[User talk:216.165.197.66|talk]]) 17:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thank you for the correction! -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 19:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::That is OR, it's also all rather irrelevant as we do not know yet if he did or did not win the popular vote (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/popular-vote). [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:07, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::The New York Times source linked above says &quot;With some votes still being counted, the tally used by The New York Times showed Mr. Trump winning the popular vote with 49.997 percent as of Thursday night&quot;. This directly contradicts the idea that you need to win a majority to &quot;win&quot; the popular vote. The dictionary definition linked also doesn't claim that you need to win a majority to &quot;win&quot; the popular vote. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:14, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Ahh I see, and where did Harris come?. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::She's at ~48.3% at the moment. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:29, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::That is what winning the popular vote means, he got more votes. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Think we're in agreement, have another readover of the thread. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:38, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Yes, we know. The OP said {{tq|Trump's total will fall below 50%}}, when the test is whether he falls below Harris. This entire thread has been for clearing up that point. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thank you for the correction! (I'm not the best at counting votes.) Baker says in this article that &lt;b&gt;{{tq|&quot;Mr. Trump won the popular vote for the first time in three tries.&quot;}}&lt;/b&gt; Still I think we need to prepare for Mr. Baker's point {{tq|&quot;he prevailed with one of the smallest margins of victory in the popular vote since the 19th century and generated little of the coattails of a true landslide.&quot;}} despite Mr. Trump's claims. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{u|Mandruss}}, this can be archived. No more corrections needed. Thanks. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:21, 22 November 2024 (UTC) {{abot}} == Overdetail == @[[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]], you removed [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259051300 this] edit claiming overdetail. I disagree and think it adds much needed information to the page and is well-sourced. I copied over three sentences from the rhetoric page I thought would enhance the main page, but left the vast majority of information out, as I myself do not want to overdetail the main page. The content was copied within the relevant section. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 02:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :There is already considerable discussion of rhetoric and related concepts incorporated into the rest of the article, including the claim that he is populist/nationalist, use of demeaning and derogatory language, and his rejection of the 2020 election results. If you wanted to reorganize the existing content to move it into the rhetoric section, I would have no objection, but I don't think we need to add new content there. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::My added content did not mention his rejection of the 2020 election results. I think you are referring to the mention of the &quot;[[big lie]]&quot; which in this case refers to the propaganda technique, which is why it is in the rhetoric section. The &quot;big lie&quot; mentioned elsewhere refers to the lie of a stolen election itself. You are correct that it is mentioned he is populist/nationalist elsewhere, but not including a mention of this in the section called &quot;political practice&quot; seems like an oversight. ::The one sentence in question I added was: {{tq|Research has identified Trump's rhetoric as heavily using vitriol, demeaning language, [[false equivalency]], exclusion,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Stuckey |first1=Mary E. |date=20 February 2020 |title=&quot;The Power of the Presidency to Hurt&quot;: The Indecorous Rhetoric of Donald J. Trump and the Rhetorical Norms of Democracy |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/psq.12641 |journal=Presidential Studies Quarterly |volume=50 |issue=2 |access-date=14 September 2024 |pages=366–391 |issn=0360-4918 |doi=10.1111/psq.12641}}&lt;/ref&gt; and [[Nativism (politics)|nativist]]&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Bender |first=Michael C. |date=September 22, 2024 |title=On the Trail, Trump and Vance Sharpen a Nativist, Anti-Immigrant Tone |work=[[The New York Times]] |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/22/us/politics/trump-vance-nativist.html |access-date=September 25, 2024 |quote=Battling in a tight race, the Trump-Vance team is sharpening the anti-immigrant nativism that fueled the former president's initial rise to power in 2016, seizing on scare tactics, falsehoods and racial stereotypes.}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[fearmongering]]{{Efn|Name=&quot;Fearmongering&quot;|Attributed to multiple sources:&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Lim |first1=Hyeyoung |last2=Seungeun Lee |first2=Claire |last3=Kim |first3=Chunrye |date=January 2023 |title=Fear, Political Legitimization, and Racism: Examining Anti-Asian Xenophobia During the COVID-19 Pandemic |journal=Race and Justice |volume=13 |issue=1 |pages=80–104 |issn=2153-3687 |doi=10.1177/21533687221125817 |pmc=9475372}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Bustinza |first1=Monica A. |last2=Witkowski |first2=Kaila |date=19 June 2022 |title=Immigrants, deviants, and drug users: A rhetorical analysis of President Trump's fear-driven tweets during the 2019 government shutdown |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/poi3.313 |journal=Policy &amp; Internet |volume=14 |issue=4 |access-date=14 September 2024 |pages=788–806 |issn=1944-2866 |doi=10.1002/poi3.313}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Nai |first1=Alessandro |last2=Maier |first2=Jürgen |date=4 June 2021 |title=The Wrath of Candidates. Drivers of Fear and Enthusiasm Appeals in Election Campaigns across the Globe |journal=Journal of Political Marketing |volume=23 |issue=1 |pages=74–91 |issn=1537-7857 |doi=10.1080/15377857.2021.1930327 |pmid=38318239 |pmc=10840446 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Jacobsen |first1=Gary C. |date=24 October 2020 |title=Donald Trump and the Parties: Impeachment, Pandemic, Protest, and Electoral Politics in 2020 |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/psq.12682 |journal=Presidential Studies Quarterly |volume=50 |issue=4 |access-date=15 September 2024 |pages=762–795 |issn=0360-4918 |doi=10.1111/psq.12682 |quote=Even if his racially-charged fear-mongering fails to deliver victory, the party image it conveys will not soon fade}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} about immigrants, crime, and minorities as essential to his support.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |last1=Mason |first1=Liliana |last2=Wronski |first2=Julie |last3=Kane |first3=John V. |title=Activating Animus: The Uniquely Social Roots of Trump Support |journal=American Political Science Review |publisher=Cambridge University Press |volume=115 |issue=4 |date=2021 |pages=1508–1516 |doi=10.1017/S0003055421000563 |s2cid=237860170 |quote=Trump's support is thus uniquely tied to animus toward minority groups. Our findings provide insights into the social divisions underlying American politics and the role of elite rhetoric in translating animus into political support.}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |last1=Baker |first1=Joseph O. |last2=Perry |first2=Samuel L. |last3=Whitehead |first3=Andrew L. |title=Keep America Christian (and White): Christian Nationalism, Fear of Ethnoracial Outsiders, and Intention to Vote for Donald Trump in the 2020 Presidential Election |journal=Sociology of Religion |volume=81 |issue=3 |date=14 May 2020 |pages=272–293 |doi=10.1093/socrel/sraa015|quote=In the penultimate year before Trump's reelection campaign, the strongest predictors of supporting Trump, in order of magnitude, were political party, xenophobia, identifying as African American (negative), political ideology, Christian nationalism, and Islamophobia.|hdl=1805/26339 |hdl-access=free }}&lt;/ref&gt;}} The section you removed afterwards was not added by me but already in the article for a while now, and was: &quot;{{tq|Trump uses rhetoric that political scientists have deemed to be both [[Dehumanization|dehumanizing]] and connected to physical violence by his followers.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Nacos |first1=Brigitte L. |last2=Shapiro |first2=Robert Y. |last3=Bloch-Elkon |first3=Yaeli |date=2020 |title=Donald Trump: Aggressive Rhetoric and Political Violence |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/26940036 |journal=Perspectives on Terrorism |volume=14 |issue=5 |pages=2–25 |issn=2334-3745 |jstor=26940036 |access-date=December 16, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Some research suggests Trump's rhetoric caused an increased incidence of hate crimes.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Kunzelman |first1=Michael |last2=Galvan |first2=Astrid |date=August 7, 2019 |title=Trump words linked to more hate crime? Some experts think so |url=https://apnews.com/article/7d0949974b1648a2bb592cab1f85aa16 |access-date=October 7, 2021 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Feinberg |first1=Ayal |last2=Branton |first2=Regina |last3=Martinez-Ebers |first3=Valerie |date=March 22, 2019 |title=Analysis &amp;#124; Counties that hosted a 2016 Trump rally saw a 226 percent increase in hate crimes |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/22/trumps-rhetoric-does-inspire-more-hate-crimes/ |access-date=October 7, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; During his 2016 campaign, he urged or praised physical attacks against protesters or reporters.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=White |first=Daniel |date=February 1, 2016 |title=Donald Trump Tells Crowd To 'Knock the Crap Out Of' Hecklers |url=https://time.com/4203094/donald-trump-hecklers/ |access-date=August 9, 2019 |magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Koerner |first=Claudia |date=October 18, 2018 |title=Trump Thinks It's Totally Cool That A Congressman Assaulted A Journalist For Asking A Question |url=https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/claudiakoerner/trump-gianforte-congressman-assault-journalist-montana |access-date=October 19, 2018 |work=[[BuzzFeed News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Numerous defendants investigated or prosecuted for violent acts and hate crimes, including participants of the January&amp;nbsp;6, 2021, storming of the U.S. Capitol, cited Trump's rhetoric in arguing that they were not culpable or should receive leniency.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Tracy |first=Abigail |date=August 8, 2019 |title=&quot;The President of the United States Says It's Okay&quot;: The Rise of the Trump Defense |url=https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/08/donald-trump-domestic-terrorism-el-paso |access-date=October 7, 2021 |work=[[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Helderman |first1=Rosalind S. |last2=Hsu |first2=Spencer S. |last3=Weiner |first3=Rachel |date=January 16, 2021 |title='Trump said to do so': Accounts of rioters who say the president spurred them to rush the Capitol could be pivotal testimony |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-rioters-testimony/2021/01/16/01b3d5c6-575b-11eb-a931-5b162d0d033d_story.html |access-date=September 27, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; A nationwide review by ABC News in May 2020 identified at least 54 criminal cases from August 2015 to April 2020 in which Trump was invoked in direct connection with violence or threats of violence mostly by white men and primarily against minorities.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Levine |first=Mike |date=May 30, 2020 |title='No Blame?' ABC News finds 54 cases invoking 'Trump' in connection with violence, threats, alleged assaults. |url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/blame-abc-news-finds-17-cases-invoking-trump/story?id=58912889 |access-date=February 4, 2021 |work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} ::Going back in the page's edit history I see that '''the section you removed has been in the page for years''' titled &quot;Incitement of violence&quot; since at least 2022 (didn't want to scroll back further). ::I believe that the high-quality sources which were added also warrant the source's inclusion. Claims over fearmongering, for instance, are not mentioned elsewhere but backed up with the research articles provided in this addition. So there is a lot of new material not mentioned elsewhere in the article as well. ::{{sources-talk}}[[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Slight clarification, when I say you removed the section I mean you removed the section as a standalone as it has been since at least 2022 and put it under &quot;rhetoric&quot;. I believe it needs to remain as a standalone subsection as it has been for years. Not sure if that was clear from my prior comment. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::I don't agree that discussion of specific propaganda techniques should be in this article. I would be fine with moving content from elsewhere in the article into the Political practice section if you feel that is a better organizational approach. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::I also agree that discussion of specific propaganda techniques should not be in this article. The addition was just a sentence that mentioned that he uses the big lie and firehose of falsehood in the Truthfulness section. No further discussion of those two techniques are included on this page. :::I don't see why mentioning Trump's populism/nationalism can't be mentioned in the Political practice section as well as where it is in the other sections of the page now. A quick search reveals it is only mentioned in the election of 2016 section, one section in his first presidency, and once in the election of 2024 section. If someone wants to go to the Political practice section to learn about Trump's politics, it makes sense for at least a mention of populism/nationalism to be there. Again, I agree we should not be going into great detail here, but I think just mentioning it would be due. This is what my edit does. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 05:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If it's already mentioned three separate times, we don't need to mention it a fourth - we need to cut down the existing mentions. Consolidating to the Political practice section would be a good way to accomplish that; adding without consolidating would be the wrong way to go. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 05:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I would be in favor of that proposal, but I am afraid it breaks up the &quot;history&quot; section of the article. If anything, parts of the &quot;Election of 2016&quot; Rhetoric and political positions section should be moved to the political practice section. I would be willing to work on this if you think this is the way to go. I don't want to break any preexisting consensus here [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 20:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Okay, I went ahead and consolidated the sections as you recommended. I am looking at it and I agree, I think it looks much better now. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 21:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::{{u|BootsED}}, nice to meet you. Apologies in advance if I am mistaken. I was dumbfounded to see that you added 12000+ bytes and a whole lot of cites today. Was that really necessary? Sorry I'm relatively new at Donald Trump but can see much concern about this article being too long. I would feel like I was letting everybody down if I tried to do that. Please don't take offense, I would just like to know what's going on. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 22:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Hi Susan, the edit in question re-added an edit that was under discussion. Some mentions of right-wing populism were merged into the political practice section, where some of the information that was already on the page in various places was placed. The bites included lots of citations, which should be viewed separately from word count. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 23:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Thank you, {{u|BootsED}}, that explains it, good. Can you possibly use one or two good sources instead of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1259187646&amp;oldid=1259187101 five] for one sentence? I have [[Jennifer Mercieca]]'s book ''Demagogue for President: The Rhetorical Genius of Donald Trump'' if you need some help. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Hi Susan, ideally no more than six sources should be used. The sources are placed within an efn template to avoid cluttering the page. If you'd like to add your source to the page with a short quotation you are more than free to. I am hesitant to remove sources as many of the sentences deal with contentious material that people will attempt to remove claiming that &quot;two sources isn't enough to say this&quot; or something of that nature. This is why for such claims, I prefer to include as many high-quality sources as possible. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 23:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Clarification, I see you are referring to the media section edit. The two sources up top are directly related to the prior sentence section, and the remaining three are used as the direct sentence preceding it makes claims that are made within those three sources. There are only five sources used, in total, but they are split up to avoid having too many at the end. Other sentences on this page do a similar thing with a similar amount of sources. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 00:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::[[User:BootsED|BootsED]], what I proposed was consolidating the existing content, ''not'' re-adding the edit that was under discussion. Given that, and given that it's a violation of the 24-hr BRD, that needs reverting ASAP please. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 00:08, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == &quot;facilitating the January 6 United States Capitol attack&quot; &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id='The claim that Trump &quot;facilitating the January 6 United States Capitol attack&quot; seems to be just an opinon.'&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == Right now the lead states that Trump facilitated the Jan 6 attack. He has never been convicted of such an act and the lead doesn't give a source. Just seems to be an opinion. Trump has not been convicted of any such crimes in relation to Jan 6. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 09:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Just for starters, you may have noticed that the lead doesn't give ''any'' sources. Related citations are in the supporting body content. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::well the Stormy Daniels comment does have a link. But regardless, this claim doesn't re appear in the body and so ultimately remains an unsupported opinion/false accusation. Trump has never been found guilty of any such offence. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 22:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Misogyny and cabinet appointments == A misogynist is a person who hates or discriminates against women.[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogynist] In this article there is the section [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1259134731#Misogyny_and_allegations_of_sexual_misconduct Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct]. Here are some of the positions where Trump has appointed women to cabinet positions in his next administration so far: Attorney general, Secretary of Homeland Security, Secretary of Labor, Director of National Intelligence, United Nations Ambassador, Secretary of Education, Surgeon General.[https://web.archive.org/web/20241123140506/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/us/politics/trump-administration-cabinet-appointees.html] I don't know of any sources so far that reconcile the characterization of Trump as a misogynist and his cabinet appointments of women, and suggest we be on the lookout for such sources so that the article can be appropriately edited. Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 17:43, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Bob, this is a &quot;I have black friends so I can't be racist!&quot; fallacy, as women can be misogynist too. It is not a prejudice exclusive to men. But even beyond that, the president-elect nominating women to his administration does not counterbalance his past words and deeds that numerous reliable sources have characterized as misogynist. {{tq|I don't know of any sources...and suggest we be on the lookout for such sources}} suggests that you have already formed a personal opinion about content to add to a BLP, and hope it can someday be validated. That is literally a textbook example of [[confirmation bias]] . [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 18:11, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::This being said there is an issue in misogyny being in wikivoice while every other prejudice/label is attributed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Well, to be fair, this does just seem like opinion not fact. This isn't supposed to be gossip. Certainly some think he is sexist. But some think he isn't and Wikipedia isn't really supposed to be elevating particular opinions over others. The allegations/liability in sexual misconduct is fact, that bit is solid. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 23:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Actions == Not living in the US, I'm not very knowledgeable about American politics, so it seems fair to ask users to list below all the racist, misogynist, etc. ACTIONS that Trump has committed (I see many controversial phrases said by him, but not racist, misogynistic, etc. actions); in reply to [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259151827]. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 17:52, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == There is no evidence Trump is misogynist == Sure, he called certain women horseface, low life on the campaign trail, but not women in general. There is no evidence Trump is misogynist, which would require him calling all women in general certain derogatory phrases. [[Special:Contributions/216.165.197.66|216.165.197.66]] ([[User talk:216.165.197.66|talk]]) 19:49, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&diff=1259214465</id> <title>Talk:Donald Trump</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&diff=1259214465"/> <updated>2024-11-24T00:08:22Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: ping <hr /> <div>{{Talk header|hide_find_sources=yes}} {{Controversial}} {{Warning RS and OR}} {{American politics AE|Consensus required=no|BRD=yes|1RR=no}} {{tmbox |image = [[File:Stop hand nuvola orange.svg|48px|link=]] |text = '''Want to add new information about Donald Trump?'''&lt;br/&gt;Please consider choosing the most appropriate article, for example: {{div col}} * [[Indictments against Donald Trump]] * [[Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign]] {{div col end}} ... or dozens of other places, as listed in {{t|Donald Trump series}}. 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|collapsed=y |1= {{Article history |action1=GAN |action1date=15:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC) |action1link=Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 1#GA Failing |action1result=failed |action1oldid=56507759 |action2=GAN |action2date=17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC) |action2link=Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 1#GA failed |action2result=failed |action2oldid=107442121 |action3=GAN |action3link=Talk:Donald Trump/GA1 |action3date= 17 September 2016 |action3result=failed |action3oldid=739866707 |action4=GAN |action4date=03:07, 25 May 2017 (UTC) |action4link=Talk:Donald Trump/GA2 |action4result=failed |action4oldid=782109977 |action5=GAN |action5date=08:44, 2 December 2018 (UTC) |action5link=Talk:Donald Trump/GA3 |action5result=failed |action5oldid=870721866 |action6=GAN |action6date=18:23, 15 July 2019 (UTC) |action6link=Talk:Donald Trump👌/GA4 |action6result=failed |action6oldid=906418948 |action7 = FAC |action7date = 2019-08-31 |action7link = Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Donald Trump/archive1 |action7result = failed |action7oldid = 913215099 |action8 = PR |action8date = 2020-04-29 |action8link = Wikipedia:Peer review/Donald Trump/archive1 |action8result= reviewed |action8oldid = 953988039 |currentstatus=FGAN |topic=Politics and government }} {{Afd-merged-from|Health of Donald Trump|Health of Donald Trump|13 June 2019}} {{Press | collapsed=yes |org=''[[New York Post]]'' |date=November 16, 2013 |author=Cuozzo, Steve |title=Don't Trust Anything on Wikipedia |url=http://nypost.com/2013/11/16/dont-trust-anything-on-wikipedia/ |org2=''[[The Verge]]'' |date2=July 22, 2015 |author2=Popper, Ben |title2=Someone just deleted Donald Trump's entire Wikipedia page |url2=http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/22/9014525/someone-just-deleted-donald-trumps-entire-wikipedia-page |org3=''[[New York Times]]'' |date3=February 1, 2016 |author3=Merrill, Jeremy |title3=On Wikipedia, Donald Trump Reigns and Facts Are Open to Debate |url3=http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/02/us/politics/wikipedia-donald-trump-2016-election.html |org4=''[[Cracked.com]]'' |date4=May 28, 2016 |author4=Germ, Erik |title4=5 Secretly Bizarre Sections Of Websites You Use Every Day |url4=https://web.archive.org/web/20170210205851/http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-truly-bizarre-sections-otherwise-normal-websites_p2/ |org5=''[[The Washington Post]]'' |date5=October 25, 2016 |author5=Guo, Jeff |title5=Wikipedia is fixing one of the Internet's biggest flaws |url5=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/25/somethings-terribly-wrong-with-the-internet-and-wikipedia-might-be-able-to-fix-it/ |org6=''[[The Washington Post]]'' |date6=October 27, 2016|author6=Alcantara, Chris |title6=The most challenging job of the 2016 race: Editing the candidates' Wikipedia pages |url6=https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/presidential-wikipedias/ |org7=''[[BBC News]]'' |date7=December 21, 2016 |author7=Staff Writer |title7=Most-edited Wikipedia pages of 2016 revealed |url7=http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38394685 |org8=''[[The Verge]]'' |date8=January 20, 2017 |author8=Gartenberg, Chaim |title8=Wikipedia editors can't decide if Trump is the president yet |url8=http://www.theverge.com/tldr/2017/1/20/14336626/wikipedia-editors-edit-war-president-obama-trump |org9=''[[The Daily Dot]]'' |date9=June 5, 2017 |author9=Wyrich, Andrew |title9=Someone is trying to get Trump's official portrait deleted from Wikipedia |url9=https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/donald-trump-official-portrait-wikipedia-copyright/ |org10=''[[The Verge]]'' |date10=22 November 2018 |author10=Warren, Tom|title10=Siri thinks Donald Trump is a penis|url10=https://www.theverge.com/tldr/2018/11/22/18108195/apple-siri-iphone-donald-trump-penis-wikipedia-fail-vandalism-editing |org11=''[[USA Today]]'' |date11=22 November 2018 |author11=Blumenthal, Eli|title11=Wikipedia vandalizing causes Siri to show a lewd image when asked about Donald Trump |url11=https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/11/22/siri-glitch-shows-male-genitalia-when-asking-questions-trump/2088884002/ |org12=''[[The Independent]]'' |date12=23 November 2018 |author12=Griffin, Andrew|title12=Asking Siri for information about Donald Trump shows explicit image after Wikipedia edit|url12=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/donald-trump-siri-explicit-image-apple-wikipedia-edit-explained-a8648556.html |org13=''[[Newsweek]]'' |date13=23 November 2018 |author13=Gander, Kashmira|title13=Someone hacked Donald Trump's Wikipedia page, replaced photo with image of penis|url13=https://www.newsweek.com/someone-hacked-donald-trumps-wikipedia-page-replaced-photo-image-penis-1228571 |org14=''[[The Inquirer]]'' |date14=26 November 2018 |author14=Martin, Alan|title14=The Trump penis Wikipedia war has kicked off again|url14=https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3066986/the-trump-penis-wikipedia-war-has-kicked-off-again |org15=''[[The Verge]]'' |date15=December 3, 2018 |author15=Brandom, Russell|title15=Wikipedia engages the 'nuclear option' after Trump penis hack|url15=https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/4/18125359/wikipedia-trump-admin-account-security-hack |org16=''[[Slate (magazine)|Slate]]'' |date16=May 28, 2019 |author16=Mak, Aaron|title16=Donald Trump's Wikipedia Entry Is a War Zone|url16=https://slate.com/technology/2019/05/donald-trump-wikipedia-page.htm |org17=''[[Fast Company]]'' |date17=March 7, 2020 |author17=Pasternack, Alex |title17=How Wikipedia's volunteers became the web's best weapon against misinformation |url17=https://www.fastcompany.com/90471667/how-wikipedia-volunteers-became-the-webs-best-weapon-against-misinformation |org18=''[[Fox News]]'' |date18=May 21, 2020 |author18=Flood, Brian |title18=Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger says online encyclopedia scrapped neutrality, favors lefty politics |url18=https://www.foxnews.com/media/wikipedia-co-founder-larry-sanger-says-online-dictionary-scrapped-neutrality-favors-lefty-politics |org19=''[[Snopes]]'' |date19=November 19, 2020 |author19=Evon, Dan |title19=Does Loser.com Redirect to Trump’s Wikipedia Page? |url19=https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loser-com-trump-wikipedia-page/ |org20=''[[The Guardian]]'' |date20=October 23, 2023 |author20=Williams, Zoe |title20=Why is Elon Musk attacking Wikipedia? Because its very existence offends him |url20=https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/23/why-is-elon-musk-attacking-wikipedia-because-its-very-existence-offends-him |org21=''[[Fox News]]'' |date21=May 31, 2024 |author21=Hays, Gabriel |title21=CNN host suggests Trump conviction not mentioned prominently enough on former president's Wikipedia page |url21=https://www.foxnews.com/media/cnn-host-suggests-trump-conviction-mentioned-prominently-enough-former-presidents-wikipedia-page |org22=''[[Slate (magazine)|Slate]]'' |date22=June 4, 2024 |author22=Harrison, Stephen |title22=The Most Heated Debate on Trump’s Felony Conviction Is Happening on ... Wikipedia? |url22=https://slate.com/technology/2024/06/donald-trump-felony-wikipedia-debate.html |org23=''[[The Boston Globe]]'' |date23=October 17, 2024 |author23=Sam Wineburg and Nadav Ziv |title23=Go ahead and use Wikipedia for research |url23=https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/10/17/opinion/use-wikipedia-reliable-source/ }} {{All time pageviews|233}} {{Annual report|[[Wikipedia:2015 Top 50 Report|2015]], [[Wikipedia:Top 25 Report/2016|2016]], [[Wikipedia:2017 Top 50 Report|2017]], [[Wikipedia:2018 Top 50 Report|2018]], [[Wikipedia:2019 Top 50 Report|2019]], [[Wikipedia:2020 Top 50 Report|2020]], [[Wikipedia:2021 Top 50 Report|2021]], and [[Wikipedia:2023 Top 50 Report|2023]]}} {{Top 25 report|Jun 14 2015|Jun 28 2015|Jul 19 2015|until|Sep 27 2015|Dec 6 2015|Dec 13 2015|Jan 3 2016|until|Jan 17 2016|until|Jun 12 2016|Jul 3 2016|until|Jul 31 2016|Aug 21 2016|until|Dec 18 2016|Jan 1 2017|until|Apr 2 2017|Apr 23 2017|May 14 2017|until|May 28 2017|Jun 11 2017|Jun 25 2017|Oct 8 2017|Oct 22 2017|Nov 26 2017|Jan 14 2018|Jun 10 2018|Sep 30 2018|Oct 28 2018|until|Nov 25 2018|Dec 9 2018|Sep 22 2019|Dec 15 2019|Jan 5 2020|Feb 23 2020|Mar 1 2020|Apr 12 2020|May 31 2020|until|Jun 28 2020|Aug 9 2020|until|Aug 23 2020|Sep 27 2020|until|Dec 13 2020|Jan 3 2021|until|Jan 31 2021|Jul 10 2022|Jun 11 2023|May 26 2024|Jun 23 2024|Jul 14 2024|Jul 21 2024|Oct 20 2024|until|Nov 10 2024}} {{Annual readership|scale=log}} &lt;!-- end page history banner bundle --&gt; }} {{Skip to talk}} {{Skip to bottom}} {{Banner holder |collapsed=yes |1= {{Section sizes}} }} {{User:MiszaBot/config |algo = old(14d) |archive = Talk:Donald Trump/Archive %(counter)d |counter = 177 |maxarchivesize = 250K |archiveheader = {{aan}} |minthreadstoarchive = 1 |minthreadsleft = 2 }} __TOC__ == Current consensus == &lt;!-- Must be on this page, not the subpage, to support mobile users --&gt; {{/Current consensus}} == Racially charged == &lt;!-- START PIN --&gt;{{Pin message|}}&lt;!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 10:51, 10 November 2034 (UTC) --&gt;{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|2046768684}}&lt;!-- END PIN --&gt; Hello all, I see Consensus #30, based particularly on [[Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_92#Wording_for_sentence_in_lead_on_racial_stance|this Request for Comment]] says: &quot;The lead includes: &quot;Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist.&quot;&quot; I can also see that this is the only mention of &quot;racially charged&quot; in the article. Would editors here support removal of &quot;racially charged&quot; until such text is supported in the body? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tq|Would editors here support removal of &quot;racially charged&quot; until such text is supported in the body?}} Not this one, per process. We're not going to amend #30 until the body is fixed, then reverse the amendment. &quot;Racially charged&quot; appears to have enough RS support, so just find a way to work it into the body. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::&lt;s&gt;What does &quot;reverse the amendment&quot; mean? Go back to Consensus 24? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; I understand. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::I see the grammatical ambiguity. :) &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::This seems backwards. Lead follows body. We shouldn't treat the consensus list as sacrosanct, it's merely there to keep track of RfCs. If the article has moved on, I'd support a new RfC to challenge the previous one. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 07:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Riposte97}} I think an RfC should be avoided if it can be. Do you think you could [[WP:FIXIT]]? I'll have a go as well in a bit. If we don't have luck we can look at overturning Consensus #30. :::Given it's an [[WP:EXCEPTIONAL]] claim, high-quality sources will be needed. I wouldn't accept journalists being arbitrators of whether his comments were &quot;racially charged&quot;, political scientists will have written on it and we shouldn't accept inferior sourcing. This is the standard that was applied for &quot;cult of personality&quot;. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 07:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Your reasoning seems consistent with [[WP:NEWSORG]]. A departure, probably more impactful (disruptive?) than you realize, but maybe ultimately good for the article. No strong opinion provided we adhere to the established consensus process. If that means revisiting #30, I suppose you pass the &quot;significant new argument(s)&quot; test. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]], apologies that I've not had the time to properly devote to this. I'll see what I can add to your page in the coming days. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :Yep definitely. [[Special:Contributions/92.30.105.204|92.30.105.204]] ([[User talk:92.30.105.204|talk]]) 19:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC) I have created a page [[User:Rollinginhisgrave/Trump racism descriptor]] as a space for research on this article. I intended to use academic sources in [[Racial views of Donald Trump]] as the basis to follow summary style, but extremely disappointingly, only six of the almost 500 sources are academic. This is collaborative so please help! If this can be pinned to the top of this page for a short while it would be valuable. Remember, for [[WP:WEIGHT]], we are not merely looking for multiple sources describing him or his comments/actions as racist/racially charged, but for the weighted response of high-quality academic sources to these questions. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 10:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|SusanLesch}} Pinging you in case this effort is of interest. Been working mostly on collating books right now as journals are daunting for finding discussion of general scholarly consensus. If you find other useful texts along the way providing a scholarly retrospective assessment on aspects, I'm currently dropping them in [[User:Rollinginhisgrave/sandbox_2]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC) ::Will do. Sorry if I'm slow today with journals but I will catch up. On this topic per [[MOS:LEADNO]], {{tq| not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text}}, however this statement absolutely should be cited per [[MOS:CITELEAD]]. Seems like a good place for a perfectly cited footnote. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:42, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :::Thanks :) Yes the key issue is definitely it being uncited. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:48, 15 November 2024 (UTC) == Tracking lead size == Word counts by paragraph and total. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1255636208 05 Nov 2024] &amp;mdash; '''614''' = 29 + 101 + 106 + 156 + 101 + 121 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1257045174 12 Nov 2024] &amp;mdash; '''657''' = 46 + 101 + 116 + 175 + 176 + 43 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1258463601 19 Nov 2024] &amp;mdash; '''418''' = 62 + 76 + 153 + 127 == Religion in Donald Trump's life == Hi. I added 57 words to the thin content of the Religion section. Since these words were reverted with concern about length and mentions elsewhere in article, please discuss the added content here and the quality of the [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|Reliable sources]] involved: # Added that his family's church was &quot;led by Norman Vincent Peale.&quot; -- This point is made by Kelsey Dallas, an award-winning religion journalist (Deseret News), in her article, &quot;What has Donald Trump said about religion?&quot; (7-18-24) and elaborated by the NYT article &quot;Overlooked Influences on Donald Trump: A Famous Minister and His Church&quot; (9-5-16) -- '''5 words''' # &quot;During his childhood, he also went to the [[First Presbyterian Church (Brooklyn)|First Presbyterian Church]] in Brooklyn and donated to it in 2012.&quot; -- This church affiliation is completely missing from the article. It is supported by the Kelsey Dallas piece and this article in ''The Atlantic'': Green, Emma (July 24, 2016). &quot;Donald Trump Grew Up at a Church That's Now Full of Immigrants&quot; -- '''19 words''' # Added that his new identification as a non-denominational Christian is &quot;an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president.&quot; Source: Admin, C. (October 27, 2020). &quot;Trump Becomes the First President Since Eisenhower to Change Faiths in Office&quot;. ''Christianity Today''. More can be said about this salient shift, of course, but here adding only -- '''10 words''' # &quot;Trump appeals to Christian nationalists, according to a 2022 study&quot; -- This key point is missing from the article. There are numerous sources that discuss his relationship to Christian nationalism, please [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22trump%22+%22christian+nationalism%22&amp;client=firefox-b-1-d&amp;sca_esv=bdd267d42e3b57fe&amp;sca_upv=1&amp;ei=LwP7ZqLnCY2gwN4P07CoqQs&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjiutmquuuIAxUNENAFHVMYKrUQ4dUDCA8&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22trump%22+%22christian+nationalism%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHyJ0cnVtcCIgImNocmlzdGlhbiBuYXRpb25hbGlzbSJI4CJQiQNYoBpwAXgAkAEAmAF-oAHXDKoBBDEyLjW4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgWgAtADwgIIEAAYgAQYxwPCAgUQABiABMICDRAAGIAEGEMYxwMYigWYAwCIBgGSBwM0LjGgB_oN&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp%7Csearch Google News] to confirm. Here I suggest an academic paper by leading scholars: Perry, Samuel L.; Whitehead, Andrew L.; Grubbs, Joshua B. (June 2022). &quot;The Devil That You Know: Christian Nationalism and Intent to Change One's Voting Behavior For or Against Trump in 2020&quot;. Politics and Religion. 15 (2): 229–246. doi:10.1017/S175504832100002X. p.243 -- '''10 words''' # &quot;and in March 2024 he began to sell copies of a Christian Bible.&quot; -- Not elsewhere in the article. Source: Willingham, A. J. (March 28, 2024). &quot;Why some Christians are angry about Trump's 'God Bless the USA' Bible&quot;. CNN. -- '''13 words''' Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life, especially because the personal is political for his relationship with Christian constituencies. In the current version, the word &quot;Christian&quot; only appears once in the article. I believe these 5 changes are written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|Neutral point of view]], clearly [[Wikipedia:Verified|Verified]], and involve due [[Wikipedia:WEIGHT|Weight]] to a significant aspect of the subject's life. @[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]], thanks in advance for comments. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 20:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC) :There is an argument for 2, 4, and 5 to be added. 1 and 3 are relatively trivial IMO. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 20:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC) ::I believe 1 is not trivial. The &quot;power of positive thinking&quot; is at the heart of Trump's philosophy. I believe it used to be in the article, but has been edited out at some point.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 00:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :1, 2, 3 are silly trivia. Ambivalent on the rest. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 01:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :4 seems more relevant. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 01:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :There is too much religion material in the article. There should be something about his pandering to fundamentalist Christians , his strange messages to the Jews, and his attempts to monetize and brand himself with the Bible. Well, actually we do have the photo-op.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 01:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC) ::I believe the Bible is included in an article on Trump products.[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 02:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC) ::You can now get the “The Day God Intervened” edition ({{tq|custom embossed to in remembrance of the day that God intervened during President Donald J. Trump`s assassination attempt}} — English [https://godblesstheusabible.com/ isn't the website's forte]) of &quot;the only Bible endorsed by&quot; Trump, using his &quot;name, likeness and image&quot; under a license agreement with one of Trump's organizations, CIC Ventures LLC; $59.99, or $1,000 with {{tq|President Donald J. Trump's Hand-Signed Signature}}. It's not a Trump-branded product, so it's mentioned in the last paragraph of [[The Trump Organization#Other ventures and investments]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :::: {{ping|SPECIFICO}} Hi there. Based on your suggestion more content about Christians, messages to Jews, etc., it looks like a typo and that you meant to write, &quot;There is ''not'' too much religion...&quot; -- is that right? [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 19:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I meant there's too much insignificant content about church etc and not enough about his use of religion in efforts to pander to various groups.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 02:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]] Thank you for the link to the godblesstheusabible website ... my brain just exploded. &lt;span style=&quot;border-radius:9em;background:#88ff00&quot;&gt;[[User:Bobsd|&lt;span style=&quot;color: blue&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• Bobsd •&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;/span&gt;([[User talk:Bobsd|talk]]) 01:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1225220728&amp;oldid=1225196949 This edit] moved Trump’s Sunday school confirmation from [[Donald Trump#Religion|Religion]] to [[Donald Trump#Early life|Early Life]], and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1225221117&amp;oldid=1225220728 this edit] removed Peale. {{tq|Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life}} — he was and is unable to name a favorite or cite a single verse or passage from the Bible. I just moved Sunday school back into the section. I assume Sunday school was mentioned only because of contradictory Trump claims about his religion/religiosity. I can't think of any other bio mentioning it as part of early life and education, not even [[Mike Pence]]'s. Was tempted to remove it but didn't because of this discussion. :*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1225221117&amp;oldid=1225220728 this edit] in May removed Peale. The Trumps started attending Marble Collegiate Church because of Peale's fame and feel-good-about-being-rich sermons. Seems trivial to me. :*Donation to Brooklyn church: It was apparently only reported by one source, [https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/07/trumps-sunday-school/492653/ The Atlantic], at the time which also reported that {{tq|As far as Patrick O’Connor, the pastor, knows, the Republican presidential nominee has never tried to visit the church where he grew up—or, at least, not in several decades.}} Who knows why he sent a check in 2012, and was it a personal check or a Trump Foundation check? :*Christian nationalism. There's one sentence in [[Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Campaign events]]: {{tq|The Associated Press noted that &quot;Trump's rallies take on the symbols, rhetoric and agenda of Christian nationalism.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|last=Peter|first=Smith|date=May 18, 2024|title=Jesus is their savior, Trump is their candidate. Ex-president's backers say he shares faith, values|url=https://apnews.com/article/trump-christian-evangelicals-conservatives-2024-election-43f25118c133170c77786daf316821c3|access-date=June 2, 2024|work=[[Associated Press]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} It's part of his rhetoric to please a subset of his supporters, so it would belong in [[Donald Trump#2024 presidential campaign]]. :*&quot;an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president&quot; — trivial statistic. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC) ::It seems like Peale was an important influence on the Donald’s life, so I would strongly urge the reinstatement of that text. [[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 17:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC) :::Hi. @[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]], Thanks for your collaborative comments and for explaining your take to each of these points, which I appreciate, plus you looked up past edits. You also moved the Sunday school thing, even though you feel that it's unimportant. Your point (higher up) about the bible is clear and well-explained, so I get that (#5). If the donation is only one RS, then I can see leaving out of this article, though it may belong in a sub-article (#2). :::* On Christian nationalism (#4), or Christian right / conservatism -- you suggest a different section, that's very helpful. There are numerous RS sources on his relationship to Christian movements, e.g., [[Trumpism]] article long section. It is deeper and earlier than the current campaign, so it might go under earlier under political career. But I'm puzzled because this article doesn't mention the political movement-building he has done, e.g., MAGA, Trumpism. and Christian conservatism. What's your sense of that? (FWIW, my #3 is related to all this, but less important than showing readers his evangelical coalition-building.) :::* On Norman Vincent Peale -- Ok, it might sound trivial at first glance. But there are many sources that report, analyze, and opine about the relevance of Peale to Trump. Is it helpful if I give some links, or would that be off-putting here? [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/10/how-self-help-author-norman-vincent-peale-influenced-donald-trump.html CNBC 2020],[https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/nyregion/donald-trump-marble-collegiate-church-norman-vincent-peale.html NYT] 2016, [https://www.crosswalk.com/headlines/contributors/scott-slayton/things-christians-should-know-about-the-faith-of-donald-trump.html a Christian POV], [https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/10/donald-trump-2016-norman-vincent-peale-213220/ biographer in Politico], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/how-trump-got-religion--and-why-his-legendary-ministers-son-now-rejects-him/2016/01/21/37bae16e-bb02-11e5-829c-26ffb874a18d_story.html WaPo] 2016, [https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/surge-piety-norman-vincent-peale/ evangelical POV], [https://www.deseret.com/indepth/2020/10/8/21506597/norman-vincent-peale-donald-trump-covid-glenn-beck-positive-thinking-stephen-covey-mary-trump/ linking to his COVID approach] (one of several), [https://www.firstthings.com/article/2016/08/donald-trump-man-of-faith First Things conservative POV], and more. :::Thanks for your consideration. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 19:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC) ::::A consensus appears to be forming for adding Trump's support of Christian nationality somewhere in the article. Peale influence: {{tq|in an interview [Trump] [https://web.archive.org/web/20160906211340/https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/nyregion/donald-trump-marble-collegiate-church-norman-vincent-peale.html described Dr. Peale] as “a great preacher and a great public speaker” but said nothing about any religious beliefs he had imparted.}} (New York Times) {{tq|[https://web.archive.org/web/20160123161744/https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/how-trump-got-religion--and-why-his-legendary-ministers-son-now-rejects-him/2016/01/21/37bae16e-bb02-11e5-829c-26ffb874a18d_story.html Trump, in a telephone interview], ... said he was a young man when he first heard Norman Vincent Peale preach. “He would give the best sermons of anyone; he was an amazing public speaker,” Trump said. “He could speak for 90 minutes and people were upset when it was over.” Trump said he was drawn to stories the minister told in the pulpit about successful business executives “overcoming difficulties.” “I found that very interesting,” the billionaire said, adding that he and Peale became friends. “He thought I was his greatest student of all time.”}} (Washington Post) Sounds more transactional than faith-based. Also, are there any witnesses for Trump attending church every Sunday for 50 years? He has been known to lie ... [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC) :::::'''Peale''' was a far-right Christian nationalist charlatan and a bigot whose model is reflected in much of Trump's present-day rhetoric. [[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 02:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I think his relationship with Peale was transactional, but that's no reason not to include it![[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 02:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::No, Peale was a [https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+peale hero and role model] - like Roy Cohn, Putin, and Lechter. These icons impregnated the imagination of what would become today's Trump-2024.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 12:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::Based on responses, I will aim to write something brief in the article about Trump's work with Christian conservatives and (arguable) support for Christian nationalism. Might be next week. It's fine, of course, if somebody else writes this into the article, please let me know via ping. :::::::On Peale, it seems that he deserves at least limited mention as an inspiration (or other term) for Trump. I think this is easiest to put into Religion section, since Trump encountered hiim through church, but other suggested placements are welcome. Thanks for all your responses and finding further sources. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 02:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Hi @[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]], in my comment above (Oct 9), I expressed what I took to be a suitable handling for Peale. While some users assumed Peale was trivial, I cited 8 different sources, including articles devoted to Peale's influence on Trump. Your comment mentioned NYT and WaPo. Specifico and Jack Upland affirmed the relevance of Peale. Please clarify your concerns, e.g., is Peale's influence not discussed by credible sources, should Peale's influenced be mentioned elsewhere in the article? Something else? Thanks. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 14:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::There's no consensus to add Peale. Only eight people participated in this discussion. Four opposed mentioning Peale, and one acquiesced to the opposed faction. Peale's [[Norman Vincent Peale#Influence|page mentions]] Donald Trump, and [[Fred Trump#Personal life|Fred Trump's]] page mentions Peale's influence on Fred. Fred Trump was raised Lutheran, his children were raised in his wife's Presbyterian beliefs, became a member of the Norman Vincent Peale church of &quot;positive thinking&quot;. Trump, who went back to living with his parents after he finished college, went along but seems to have come away with &quot;assume the worst&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Factoid #2 needs to be removed and I'll acquiesce to those above who say that #1 and #3 should go. In general, it's more important how Trump is perceived by the religious right than trivialities about the few times he actually attended church. &lt;sub style=&quot;border:1px solid #FFCC00;&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Purplebackpack89|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#FFCC00;background:#800080;&quot;&gt;pbp&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 20:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Based on discussion above, I'm '''adding a Christian nationalism sentence''' to a subsection on Trump's campaign rhetoric: &quot;Without being conventionally religious, Trump used Christian nationalist rhetoric that portrayed Christians under siege in America and that promised its renewal as a Christian nation.&quot; This is based on the most cited authors on Christian nationalism in contemporary American politics (this article has been cited 500+ times): Whitehead, Andrew L., Samuel L. Perry, and Joseph O. Baker. &quot;Make America Christian again: Christian nationalism and voting for Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential election.&quot; Sociology of religion 79, no. 2 (2018): 147-171. esp pages 150-153. It'd be good to have at least one sentence on his coalition building with evangelical / conservative Christians. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 17:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :: In line with the above discussion, I also added a '''sentence on Norman Vincent Peale''' in the &quot;Religion&quot; subsection. There are various sources, noted above, so I chose the liberal NY Times and the conservative First Things, which both give a pretty reasonable account of how Trump was influenced by Peale. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 18:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253113754&amp;oldid=1252993272 reverted] the addition of Peale since there is no consensus for it, and I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253116482&amp;oldid=1253113754 replaced] the material you added with the material we discussed here. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} I don't care to take on uninvolved closure here, but the last comment of any substance was on 30 October. What do the participants think? Close as resolved or no? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :I've removed the closure. More discussion needed. Elaborating shortly. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 19:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :Justifications for inclusion here are very thin. Relative importance of facts to the topic Trump and religion is assessed by editors applying editorial judgement as to whether facts are trivial, which is one of the weakest ways of ensuring NPOV. The first article linked makes an effort to contextualize facts in how important they are to Trump's religion overall, but it is a weak source, given &quot;there is no consensus on whether the Deseret News is independent of the LDS Church.&quot; Better sources exist to assess what facts are significant re Trump and religion, the key one being [https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-40758-1] &lt;ins&gt;which &quot;Provides a scholarly retrospective on the presidential legacies of... Trump [re; religion]&lt;/ins&gt;.[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 19:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::Useful summary of Trump's relationship with religion in the context of his biography and politics (page 284) &quot;Yet a closer look revealed that Christianity, and to a lesser extent Judaism, played a significant and complex role in Trump’s life. For several decades, the Trump family selected the Fifth Avenue church, Marble Collegiate, as a spiritual home. Marble’s pastor, Methodist minister Norman Vincent Peale, embodied an unorthodox, psychology-based Christian preaching, pro-business message, and connections to Republican Party politicians. After Donald Trump’s parents died, he frequently consulted a nondenominational, televangelist pastor Paula White. Meanwhile, Trump’s daughter Ivanka converted to Judaism and married the Orthodox Jew real estate developer Jared Kushner in 2009.&quot; [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258682804&amp;oldid=1258675545 Rewrote using above]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Rollinginhisgrave}} you have not established consensus for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1258693912 this restoration]; please self-revert. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 02:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Hi {{u|Nikkimaria}}, happy to revert, before I do could you clarify what you mean by &quot;establish consensus for this restoration&quot;? I understand what constitutes a revert is contentious, but I also believe I was following [[WP:BRD|bold, revert, discuss]]. This is as you deleted the discussion on religion, which has been in the article for a long time, even if not in this form, and I reverted it. If you were reverting my change in the content of the religion section, you would restore the previous content. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I reverted your addition of new religion-related content, and request that you get consensus for it before restoring. Is what you posted above a direct quote from the source? If so, your proposal also seems like [[WP:CLOP|very close paraphrasing]], except for the vaguer last sentence. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 02:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::{{u|Nikkimaria}} I've [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258699797&amp;oldid=1258693912 restored] the text before my edit. My edit was not an addition but a replacement. The above is a direct quote and I spent a fair bit of time trying to reword but apparently did so poorly. Summaries of summaries are always difficult, I'll have another go. :::::::You initially described the content as &quot;overdetail&quot;, could you elaborate why you think so in light of the quote I provided? &quot;Christianity, and to a lesser extent Judaism, played a significant and complex role in Trump’s life&quot; (Carty &amp; Rozell, 2023) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:13, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Not everything that can be sourced warrants inclusion, and this particular material doesn't provide a lot of concrete value - what does it mean to &quot;play a significant role&quot;? Having a Jewish family member doesn't mean that Judaism as a religion influences your views. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::The chapter the text is summarising elaborates what it means to play a significant role. I'll come back to this in an hour or so when I have source access and expand. I'm unsure the article text will be able to convey this significance beyond listing significant facts without being very long, it may be eligible for a split into a standalone article on Trump's relationship with religion. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Donald Trump has no significant relationship with religion, outside of occasionally using an upside-down bible as a political prop. No place in this article, and the idea of a standalone article is absurd. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 04:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::{{u|Zaathras}}, I will be unavailable to discuss this for the next hour. For when I am available, would you be able to provide reliable sources of equivalent quality attesting that {{tq|Trump has no significant relationship with religion}}? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}}A few hours later, here nonetheless. *Peale: Attended by whole family. Entrepreneurial approach to Christianity appealed to Trump and his dad. Peale presided his marriage to Ivana. Relationship expanded in 80s, such as using Peale as a character reference when entering Atlanta casino industry. Endorsed in Peale's autobiography. Business ethic in 80s reflected a secular interpretation of Peale's Christianity. Relationship to Marbles Church heavily emphasized during Marla scandal. Peale's successor officiated wedding to Marla. *White: Frequently consulted White after parents death after reaching out to her in 2001, serving as a personal pastor. With Melania, stood by White during scandals (misuse of funds, second divorce, bankruptcy of church. *Judaism: Ivanka-Kushner marriage notable in and of itself. Kushner's family contacts got Trump a speech at AIPAC, promoting Israel's interests. Coming up to 2016, Trump courted Jewish and Evangelical groups. Trump made inroads with the Jewish vote, who had traditionally been Democratic voters. Enrolled conservative Jews to leadership positions. Kushner is attributed as responsible for changing platform to Israel to rejecting Palestinian state promotion. Kushner's family had a long-term relationship to Netanyahu (he stayed in Jared's bedroom when Jared was a teenager?) so on. '''Roughly rewritten proposal, clarifying &quot;play a significant role&quot;''': For decades, Trump and his family attended the [[Marble Collegiate Church]], maintaining a personal relationship with [[Protestant]] preacher [[Norman Vincent Peale]]. Peale, who emphasized a pro-business, psychology-based ministry, is credited with influencing Trump's business ethic that emphasized &quot;success&quot; during the 1980s. Following his parent's deaths, the non-denominational televangelist [[Paula White]] served as Trump's personal pastor, being frequently consulted and sometimes defended by Trump. After his daughter Ivanka married Jewish businessman [[Jared Kushner]] in 2009, Trump successfully courted the Democratic Jewish vote, employing the help of Kushner and his family to write policy and reach Israeli organizations and Jewish voters. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :This still has a lot of detail that isn't needed, and I don't think Israeli policy belongs in a personal-life section - you could propose incorporating that particular piece in a rewrite of the existing Israel section. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:30, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::What information do you think can be cut while still establishing the significance in-text of these core facts (Peale, White, Kushner)? A rewrite may be the best to express this. I do think your suggestion to move some to the Israel section is a good idea: it would help the article be cohesive rather than the current siloing approach and the significance would still be established. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::Based on the discussion above there does not seem to be consensus to include Peale at this point. &quot;Following his parents' death, televangelist [[Paula White]] became Trump's personal pastor&quot; covers White. I don't think anything regarding Kushner belongs in this context, though as mentioned might elsewhere. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 02:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've challenged that consensus by introducing a source which supersedes those previously discussed. I agree with you that given &lt;del&gt;Kushner&lt;/del&gt;&lt;ins&gt;his relationship with Judaism&lt;/ins&gt; is largely significant relating to politics, moving it there would be the best place. However, I don't think as the article is written it fits in anywhere there at the moment, I'll work on rewriting it over the next few weeks. Until then, this is the best, albeit imperfect place. I can expand if this doesn't make sense. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Nikkimaria, I favor mention of Peale (noted in a different thread, not the above discussion). Rollinginhisgrave, we have a Harv warning error because Carty &amp; Rozell is unused (I'd remove it but wonder if it will be back soon). [[:Category:Harv_and_Sfn_template_errors#Displaying_error_messages|Trappist the Monk's script]] will show these errors. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{u|SusanLesch}} I did remove it, unsure how it's returned. I have got Trappist the Monk's excellent script, we can remove for now, not too much effort to add it back in. I may need to make a formal proposal below of the text change, although I hope Nikkimaria can weed out any excessive text before that. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 16:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Correction, I might be off by a generation, Nikkimaria. I am reading that [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/10/how-self-help-author-norman-vincent-peale-influenced-donald-trump.html Mary Trump says] Peale influenced Fred Trump (Donald's dad) the most. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 21:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::In which case his article would be the better place for Peale. As to {{tq|this is the best, albeit imperfect place}} - no, it can wait for a rewrite of a different section. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:44, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Agree and he's already there. I found [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Trump_Revealed/x2jUDQAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;bsq=%22norman%20vincent%20peale%22 one paragraph on p. 81] in Kranish &amp; Fisher (2016) that says he was important, a mentor to Donald, who taught him to think of positive outcomes, but Peale wasn't really mentioned again. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:00, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::*{{tq|his article would be the better place for Peale}} I am unsure the best way to respond to this. Could you expand on your reasoning here, preferably with reference to policies and guidelines? ::::::::*{{tq|no, it can wait for a rewrite of a different section}} The only relevant carveout for excluding DUE content I can think of here is [[MOS:TRIVIA]], which notes {{tq|Otherwise valid content should ultimately be removed if there isn't a good place for it}}. There is a good place for it here, a discussion on his relationship with religion. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 10:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Request for consensus: Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == OK. Here's my proposal: that a section be added that reports the ''public discussion of concerns'' about his health, which are now a major part of public discourse. It should obviously not ''itself'' speculate on Trump's mental fitness, only report on the comments of [[WP:RS]] according to the [[WP:NPOV]] guidelines. This would not violate [[WP:MEDRS]], because it would not express an opinion on his mental state, only report on the opinions of others. Opinions, please? &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 11:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :A consensus/new consensus can be established without an RfC. You've already started the discussion on this page. Opening an RfC at this point would be improper, IMO. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 11:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :If you insist on going that route, this is the procedure: [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 11:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC) * Just to start off: '''support''' as proposer, per comments above. &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 11:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Anome, I suggest you notify the talk page of the article from which your proposed content originated. That page is 6 years old, so the editors there are likely knowledgeable.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 20:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Best 'not' to hand out such a notification at another talkpage, Anome. Less that be construed as [[WP:CANVASS|canvassing]] for support. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''', it is media speculation, not a clinical diagnosis, and this is a BLP. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''yes''' it is time, esp after the 39 minute dance this week the topic has received quite a bit of coverage. whether it is a 'diagnosis' or not is not an issue, a encyclopedia is not drawing a medically-based conclusion it is just reflecting the preponderance of the sources. [[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] ([[User talk:ValarianB|talk]]) 13:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *''' No''' or at best, very limited yes. I know we don't cite other wiki pages. But just for comparison, the [[Joe Biden]] main page only gives it about a vague sentence or two, and that's for a figure who's cognitive decline has been much more prominent and widely discussed by RS. Also, that section is titled much more neutrally simply as &quot;Age and health.&quot; So overall, this is a &quot;no&quot; unless ''significantly'' scaled back. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 13:50, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' It looks like they are not sincere age and health concerns but political attacks with no consensus of medical professionals. In the last stages of an election campaign, I think it's just part of an expected full court press. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 14:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:That's a straw man. The topic is concerns, which have been found NOTABLE on the abundantly sourced wiki page from which the recent content and deletion originated. If it were a medical diagnosis, the lead of this page would simply state &quot;Donald Trump is the demented former POTUS and the demented candidate for 2024.&quot; But it isn't a diagnosis and nobody's suggested it is. There should not be a formal poll of any sort here. It's already under discussion and {{ping|GoodDay}} has provided no policy or content-based rationale not to include this summary of a relevant article, similar to many others on this page. Lacking any such rationale, the removal appears meddlesome and destructive.[[User:SPECIFICO |&lt;b style=&quot;color: #0011FF;&quot;&gt; SPECIFICO&lt;/b&gt;]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 15:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :::Are you suggesting editors who oppose the addition, are disruptive? [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' - as he hasn't been diagnosed with having any such medical issues. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' - We are not going to use non-MEDRS soucres to speculated on someone's mental or physical health. We wouldn't do it with Joe or anyone else. It's also laughable un-encyclopedic. Also it should probably be an RFC to overturn two RFCs and a bunch of previous discussions that all found the same thing. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 14:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1232653181&amp;oldid=1232634293#2024_presidential_campaign]. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::Ugh, well we shouldn't. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 16:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::I don't see a way to &quot;unring&quot; that bell. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:Not to point fingers or drag this out even further (see below), but &lt;s&gt;this&lt;/s&gt; (correction, see comment by Just10A above) seems to be where comparisons to the Biden article actually started. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC) * '''Yes''' See [[Joe Biden#2024 presidential campaign]]. &quot;After the debate raised questions about his health and age, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets&quot;. I understand BLP's require extra care, but &quot;concern&quot; doesn't seem to be [[MOS:WEASEL| weasely]] enough, as long as it's attributed in a verifiable context outside of VOICE. If the same rules that apply to Biden also apply to Trump, &quot;Refuses to release medical records&quot; with &quot;attributed concerns&quot; is where the bar currently sits. See &quot;More than 230 doctors and health care providers, most of whom are backing Vice President Kamala Harris, call on Trump to release medical records&quot; [https://abcnews.go.com/Health/trump-harris-medical-records-after-vp-releases-doctors/story?id=114822811 ABC] [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/03/health/trump-health-records.html NYT], [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-harris-medical-records-doctors-b2629175.html Independent], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-health-records-doctors-for-harris/ CBS]. Also see [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:And Biden did step down, is there any indication of similar pressure on Trump from within the GOP? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::It's not a qualifier as far as I know. Was the &quot;raised questions about Biden's health&quot; only allowed to be added AFTER he stepped down? Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::Well I recall making the same arguments there as here, and it all changed when it actually had an impact on the election. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::Let's look at the tape. {{tq|Looks like concerns about Biden's health were added on the 4th of July}} &quot;After the debate raised questions about his health, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets&quot;[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1232653181&amp;oldid=1232634293#2024_presidential_campaign] and {{tq|Biden didn't resign until July 21st.}} Did I miss something? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 15:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::NO, but I did, as I had opposed that in the past, and did not see the addition. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::I can see wanting to err on the side of caution, but the cat is out of the bag and fairness is the name of the game, and other such idioms... [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 16:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::So we could say then &quot;After a series of rallies raised questions about his health, Trump faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Republicana and the editorial boards of several major news outlets&quot;, would this be supported by RS? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::AFAIK There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar. Only that it must be based on what the sources say. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::1.) Do not substantively edit your comments after editors have already replied to them without indicating it. That is against [[WP:REDACT|guidelines]]. *:::::::::2.) I don't know how you can argue {{tq|&quot;There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar&quot;}} when ''just'' above that you argued {{tq| &quot;Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe&quot;}} and {{tq|&quot;fairness is the name of the game.&quot;}} *:::::::::I agree that policy doesn't mandate they match, but you gotta pick a side. You can't argue &quot;Policy says they don't need to be similar&quot; and then simultaneously say &quot;They gotta similar or else it's unfair.&quot; [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 20:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::@[[User:Just10A|Just10A]] If I acted improperly I apologize, as it wasn't my intent to mislead anyone, hence the clarification. I wasn't aware adding afaik is considered a substantive change. *::::::::::I believe my yes vote implies that I have picked a side. TMK I'm allowed to make observations and express views on the appearance of possible inconsistencies in the application of policy in good faith. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::::No problem. I was referring to you adding the ABC source in your earlier comment though just to be clear. I agree that adding AFAIK is more minor. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 22:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::::Oh, then I was way off on what I thought you were referring to. I was about to start adding TMK and AFAIK to all of my sentences. I meant to add the ABC source in my original edit, but I goofed. Truly sorry if that screwed something up, I've had similar experiences so I empathize. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::@[[User:Just10A|Just10A]] I would briefly add that, TMK the application of policy and the substance of the context being proposed do not represent two conflicting interpretations of the same policies AFAIK. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::True, but it also means they are not the same situation, which was my point, that they are not analogous. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *{{ec}} I'd like to see someone confirm what sort of {{em|secondary}} coverage is here, but [[WP:MEDRS]] is irrelevant here because biographical information is {{strong|not biomedical information}}: we should almost never include things like how a disease works or how it is diagnosed (except insofar to mention the subject {{em|isn't}}, when that's the case) on a biographical article in the first place. That is not to say we should not ask for the absolute best quality sources, but MEDRS is an inappropriate guideline here. Also, discussion on this topic will also need to consider how and where primary sources are used on the subarticle. Due weight concerns don't go away simply because the content happens to be on another article, and not mentioning something we have an entire subarticle on even once in the main article is close to essentially {{em|forcing}} the subarticle to be a POV fork, an outcome I'd expect neither those supporting nor opposing inclusion should want. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 22:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC) ::I also don't see how [[WP:MEDRS]] (identifying reliable third-party published secondary sources accurately reflecting current knowledge on [[WP:BMI|biomedical information]] (information relating to or could reasonably be perceived as relating to human health)) applies. If a majority of reliable sources describes the candidate's speech as increasingly incoherent and his [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/10/14/trump-music-sways-town-hall/ behavior as increasingly bizarre], it's not a medical diagnosis. Consensus 39: {{tq|This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office.}} [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC) :No. This is still a BLP. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 22:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Comment''' For anyone interested in additional details about &quot;[[Age and health concerns about Joe Biden]]&quot; being added to the LEAD of [[Joe Biden]]'s BLP, they appeared about nine days before he bowed out of the 2024 presidential race. It made it onto the LEAD on July 12, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1234038899]. On the 18th a CFN tag was added [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235217497&amp;oldid=1235161604], then removed [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235238577&amp;oldid=1235228593], then re-added and removed again on the 19th [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1235500273], back on the 20th [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235582523&amp;oldid=1235536174], removed same day [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235583325&amp;oldid=1235582523], then again re-added by {{U|FMSky}} on the 20th [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1235637630], then removed again same day [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235644630&amp;oldid=1235637630], re-added same day [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235725309&amp;oldid=1235695525], and finally within the next 8-24 hours he dropped out [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1235877129&amp;oldid=1235725309]. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 02:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ::Let me clarify 2 more things then I'm outta here. First, I goofed again when I pinged FMSky, total brain fart that might be perceived as intentional CANVAS or sabotage, I'm just tired from editing all day and got distracted putting diffs together. It's no excuse it's just being honest, you can check my contribs. I doubt they would agree with my vote anyway. Second, I'm not saying this is a good reason to do the same thing here, I just think it's relevant somehow. Sorry if I screwed up, it wont happen again (here at least). Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 02:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Include'''. In the last 5-14 days since Harris released her &quot;excellent health&quot; report, there has been renewed coverage in RS about Trump's refusal to release his medical records[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/03/health/trump-health-records.html]&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=2024-10-12 |title=Harris releases a health report, shifting the focus to Trump's age and health concerns |url=https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/harris-releases-a-health-report-shifting-the-focus-to-trumps-age-and-health-concerns/articleshow/114175162.cms?from=mdr |access-date=2024-10-17 |work=The Economic Times |issn=0013-0389}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=News |first=A. B. C. |title=Trump would be the oldest person to become president. He's not sharing health details |url=https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/trump-oldest-person-become-president-sharing-health-details-114859051 |access-date=2024-10-17 |website=ABC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;[https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/despite-old-age-donald-trump-refuses-to-share-health-details-in-public-124101601405_1.html][https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/06/us/politics/trump-speeches-age-cognitive-decline.html] and the recent town hall that was even beyond the usual performance standard.[https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/despite-old-age-donald-trump-refuses-to-share-health-details-in-public-124101601405_1.html] Even after Biden it was mentioned [https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2024/07/12/voters-worried-biden-trump-age/74367988007/][https://pro.morningconsult.com/analysis/donald-trump-age-concerns-august-2024][https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/22/trump-age-health/][https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/07/24/trump-age-presidential-candidate-biden-us-election/] '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''&lt;span style=&quot;border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} :*'''Yes''', there is polling and Trump hasn't disclosed his medical records. :[[User:JohnAdams1800|JohnAdams1800]] ([[User talk:JohnAdams1800|talk]]) 02:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Yes'''. People say that it should not be included because there is no MEDRS-level source that lists Trump's health. However, this did not stop concerns about Biden's health being added to the Joe Biden page, nor did it stop the creation of the [[Age and health concerns about Joe Biden]] Wikipedia page. There is also an [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] page. Wikipedia is governed by the consensus of reliable sources, and multiple reliable sources have brought up this topic to the extent that an entire individual page on the wiki exists to cover it, thus the content is [[WP:DUE]]. To not ''at least mention it'' on this page would be a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[Wikipedia:I just don't like it|I don't like it]] through the introduction of editorial bias by having Wikipedia editors decide that the issue is &quot;not important&quot; enough to mention on this page, despite multiple RS clearly making the case that this issue is worth mentioning. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:58, 20 October 2024 (UTC) * Regarding the rally in Oaks, PA that's been mentioned in this section and in various news media sources, here's the full video of it from C-SPAN [https://www.c-span.org/video/?539179-1/president-trump-hosts-town-hall-oaks-pennsylvania]. I think it's been mischaracterized as age and health concerns for Trump. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 07:28, 17 October 2024 (UTC) * '''Yes'''! Its absurd having a long article [[Age_and_health_concerns_about_Donald_Trump]] with 120 references but trying to hide that in the main article. This is really a hot topic in the media (US and abroad) so deleting it here is really ridiculous. Especially with the [[Joe Biden]] entry featuring [[Joe_Biden#Age_and_health|such an paragraph]]. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 19:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ::''Comment:'' Amen to this. Biden has never been diagnosed with dementia, so it would be wildly improper to suggest that he does, per [[WP:MEDRS]], but we ''can and should'' report the widely [[WP:RS]]-reported ''public political controversy'' regarding the possibility of dementia, per [[WP:NPOV]], as it is politically significant. Trump should not be treated as a special case who is somehow privileged over others. &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 06:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC) * '''Yes''' for basically the reason Andol gave. There's a long article on these concerns, so we clearly have ample sourcing for them, so it's weird we're not mentioning them much here. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 01:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Support'''. The decline may not have been as obvious as Biden's because it started from a much lower baseline, but it was noticeable and noticed. Just this week, there was the 39-minute musical interlude at the Oaks, PA, town hall; the non-responsive rambling during the Bloomberg interview; [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/20/us/politics/trump-meandering-remarks.html on Friday, a 10-year old asked Trump] on [[https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-says-he-surprised-vp-kamala-harris-skipped-al-smith-dinner-terrible-decision Fox&amp;Fiends (at 34:26)] who his favorite president was when he was little. Trump said &quot;Reagan&quot;, then rambled on about Lincoln, the Civil War, Ukraine, Russia, October 7, buying oil from Iran, etc.; and at yesterday's rally in Latrobe, PA, where he [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/19/us/politics/trump-vulgarity-pennsylvania-rally.html &quot;spewed crude and vulgar remarks&quot;] and regaled the crowd with tales of Arnold Palmer being &quot;strong and tough&quot; and &quot;unbelievable&quot; in the shower, adding to the &quot;impression of [Trump] as increasingly unfiltered and undisciplined&quot;. Quoting the AP headline: [https://apnews.com/article/trump-arnold-palmer-closing-arguments-latrobe-pennsylvania-2bea9620c523e531a55259200215284e Trump kicks off a Pennsylvania rally by talking about Arnold Palmer’s genitalia]. [https://www.npr.org/2024/10/20/g-s1-29100/trump-pennsylvania-rally-arnold-palmer NPR called it] &quot;an unusually energetic rally for the former president, who has looked and sounded tired of late while doing multiple events and interviews a day across multiple swing states&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Gold|first=Michael| url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/19/us/politics/trump-vulgarity-pennsylvania-rally.html|title=At a Pennsylvania Rally, Trump Descends to New Levels of Vulgarity|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=October 19, 2024|access-date=October 20, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last=Bender|first=Michael C.| url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/20/us/politics/trump-meandering-remarks.html|title=Four of Trump’s Most Meandering Remarks This Week|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=October 20, 2024|access-date=October 20, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:50, 20 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} *'''Oaks Town Hall''' — (Good-faith [[WP:RTP|refactoring]] of distracting side issue was reverted. The following posts were in response to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADonald_Trump&amp;diff=1251650376&amp;oldid=1251639023 this]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC) ) ::It wasn't a rally. It was a &quot;[[Town hall meeting|town hall]]&quot; staged by the Trump campaign, with Republican operatives posing as &quot;constituents&quot; and reading off cue cards. One of them, &quot;Angelina who had voted Democrat all my life and was from a Democrat union household&quot; had to correct herself because she forgot to say &quot;union household&quot;; she's Angelina Banks who was the Republican nominee for Township Commissioner and State Representative in Pennsylvania's 154th and lost with 19.3% to Nelson's 80.7%.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Wolff |first=J.D. |url=https://www.meidasplus.com/p/busted-former-republican-candidates |title=Busted! Former Republican Candidates Posed As Constituents at Trump's PA Town Hall |work=[[MeidasTouch]] |date=October 17, 2024 |access-date=October 17, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=https://southbendtribune.com/elections/results/race/2022-11-08-state_house-PA-39234/ |title=2022 Pennsylvania State House - District 154 Election Results |work=[[South Bend Tribune]]|date=January 26, 2023 |access-date=October 17, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; Mischaracterized? The campaign had prepared 10 Q&amp;As but [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/us/politics/trump-town-hall-dj-music.html after five] the Q&amp;A turned into a [https://www.npr.org/2024/10/15/g-s1-28276/trump-town-hall-ends-with-extended-musical-fest-while-he-stands-on-stage bizarre musical event] with Trump giving a minion a playlist and then standing on stage not even dancing. Just standing, occasionally swaying, jerking his arms, finger-pointing at the audience, and making faces/smiling(?). &lt;small&gt;And, in keeping with the musical theme, two days later Fox unearthed the set of [[Hee Haw]] for an all-women town hall with an [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/16/media/fox-news-women-town-hall-supporters/index.html audience of MAGA supporters] asking curated puff questions.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 11:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} ::{{tq|I think it's been mischaracterized...}} You personal analysis of reliable sources is of no concern to this page. If the sources cover this as an example of the subject's mental decline, then so shall we. Not necessarily in the proverbial &quot;WikiVoice&quot; but as &quot;sources say.&quot; For now. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 12:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' There are no reliable secondary sources reporting that Trump has age-related cognitive decline, just speculation from his opponents. One editor mentioned that we covered this for Biden, but it was in the article about his recent presidential campaign. That's where this informtion belongs. It isn't possible to list every accusation made by his opponents in this article, so there is a high bar for inclusion. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 11:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC) :: Speculation from his opponents? You mean denial of his supporters? I think it is obvious to ''everyone except is supporters'' that he has massive issues. This is not a political campaign. It is a topic reported in international media all over the world, even making headlines. And everyone can see it. The only news outlets that don't report on this are the conservative media in US! Think about that. Greetings from Germany, where Trumps decline seems to be better covered than in (the conservative) parts of the US media. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 19:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC) ::Is there something askew with these sources? They seem to be speculating at the very least. ::[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/06/us/politics/trump-speeches-age-cognitive-decline.html NYT: Trump’s Speeches, Increasingly Angry and Rambling, Reignite the Question of Age] ::[https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-age-speeches-rambling-mental-fitness-b2625103.html Independent: Trump’s rambling and angry speeches raise questions about his age and fitness to serve four years] ::[https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-cognitive-decline-election-2024-b2593296.html Independent: Experts say Trump’s speaking style shows ‘potential indications of cognitive decline’] ::[https://newrepublic.com/post/182908/video-trump-cognitive-decline-memory-issues New Republic: Watch: Embarrassing Video Reveals Trump’s Alarming Cognitive Decline] ::[https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2024/09/trump-harris-debate-cognitive-decline/679803/ The Atlantic: Trump’s Repetitive Speech Is a Bad Sign] ::[https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2024/05/18/biden-trump-age-cognitive-decline/ WaPo: What science tells us about Biden, Trump and evaluating an aging brain] ::[https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2024-09-25/2024-election-trump-mental-acuity LA Times: Trump’s rhetorical walkabouts: A sign of ‘genius’ or cognitive decline?] ::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 02:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC) :::Reliable sources lose their reliability when they express politically motivated opinion and manipulation during a heated election campaign. Buried in one of those sources is a glimmer of rational journalistic integrity, &quot;...the experts in memory, psychology, and linguistics who spoke to STAT noted that they couldn’t give a diagnosis without conducting an examination...&quot;. Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:17, 20 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Not according to policy, bias it not a justification for rejecting a source, only lack of factual accuracy. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:27, 20 October 2024 (UTC) ::::: Don't fall for the bias claim. It doesn't make you biased if you report on those glaring issues. They are obvious. Rather the opposite is true. It takes willful denial, i.e. bias, to not see it. The whole point here is that Trump as a whole is such an abnormal person that he has shifted the goalposts to such a distance that there is no standard to measure him and thus he can get away with anything. And that is a problem for Wikipedia, because Biden is compared to normal people (making him look old), while Trump is compared to himself. Add the near-total polarization in the US, which has his supporters deny everything, even the possibility that there could be anything. Please step back and look up, how the Rest of the world looks at Trump and this election. It's not how the US see it. Trust me. 80 % of the population is in utter disbelieve how Trump with all of his glaring issues even got there, lest how someone who is right in his mind can even think a second of voting for him. And we do really debate ''if'' he has issues? Claiming he hasn't is biased, not the other way round. This is a clear situation where the truth is ''not'' halfway in the middle. Look at [https://x.com/harris_wins/status/1847767276998557876 this]. Just imagine Joe Biden or Kamala Harris being on stage bragging about the size of some dudes dick. The outcry would be thermonuclear and it would be broadly covered in his or her article in literally five seconds. Here? Thats Trump, normal day in the office, so what. Irrelevant, he made a thousand similar remarks. And that creates a systematic bias pro Trump, because there is no standard he doesn't fall short of, and therefore nothing is noteworthy, no matter how egregious. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 23:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC) *'''No''' - If it was to be included, it would have to be introduced as mere speculation because of MEDRS, but I do not believe there has been any particulary significant RS reporting of speculation about cognitive decline as there was about Biden nor any substantive reason (like a drop out over it) to include it. Trump's speculated cognitive decline has only been popping in the news for the past couple months because he's now the old guy on the ticket, and Dems naturally want to capitalize on that. Not [[WP:DUE]] at this time. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC) **{{ping|R. G. Checkers}} And yet we have all the cites from mainstream media [[WP:RS]] cited above. Mysteriously, this sort of reporting is regarded as [[WP:NPOV]] when it comes to Biden, yet not for Trump. As Elon Musk would say, &quot;Interesting.&quot; Is there any point at which you might regarded the public debate about Trump's mental competence noteworthy enough to mention here, or are you just waiting for the election to be over? &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 17:48, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **:Yes, and it won’t be because he danced at a rally. It would be if there was sustained coverage over months long periods with concerns of cognitive decline or if he literally had drop out of the race because of it. But do I think that 3 weeks before an election with politics flaring and a sudden emphasis on his alleged mental decline is a good reason for inclusion? I answer no. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:18, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **::In other words, [[WP:DUE]] but not before the election? I didn't know WP had to adhere to DOJ guidelines. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **:::Is there some policy I'm not aware of that gives a waiting period, especially if your name isn't Joe Biden? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **::::That's not exactly what Mr. Checkers said. I agree that we should ensure the content is [[WP:DUE]] by waiting to see if it's a blip, or something carried through by the sources for more than a few days. Space4Time3Continuum2x, you are usually a stalwart adherent of both established consensus and conservative application of policy - what gives? [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 21:08, 20 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADonald_Trump&amp;diff=1252267526&amp;oldid=1252231796 Last week happened]. &lt;small&gt;(I'm still trying to unimagine the unbelievable Arnold Palmer in the shower — a few extra nipples, a rudimentary third leg, a tattoo of Richard Nixon on his back? Although that one is on Roger Stone, I believe, another Trump friend.)&lt;/small&gt; This isn't new. [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/06/us/politics/trump-genius-mental-health.html NYT in 2018]: &quot;Trump's self-absorption, impulsiveness, lack of empathy, obsessive focus on slights, tenuous grasp of facts and penchant for sometimes far-fetched conspiracy theories have generated endless op-ed columns, magazine articles, books, professional panel discussions and cable television speculation.&quot; Now we have a flood of reporting on what was obvious for months for everyone who watched Trump rallys on C-SPAN. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::Your personal analysis or perceived opinion on what's &quot;obvious&quot; about political candidates is irrelevant to the discussion at issue. You're getting seriously close to [[WP:NOTFORUM]]. Quit rambling and stick to neutral discussion about the topic at hand to improve the encyclopedia. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 16:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::::[[WP:NOPA]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::::Asking you to stop violating policy is not a personal attack. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 18:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::This has been reported on maybe as far back as 2017. **:::::[https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2017/02/19/psychologist-calls-on-colleagues-to-sign-petition-for-trumps-removal/ 2017] **:::::[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2017/09/22/is-trump-mentally-ill-or-is-america-psychiatrists-weigh-in/ 2017] **:::::[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-dangerous-mental-illness-yale-psychiatrist-conference-us-president-unfit-james-gartner-duty-to-warn-a7694316.html 2017] **:::::[https://newrepublic.com/article/140702/medical-theory-donald-trumps-bizarre-behavior 2017] **:::::[https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2017-04-21/mental-health-professionals-debate-ethics-in-the-age-of-trump 2017] **:::::[https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2024-01-26/mental-acuity-questions-catch-up-with-trump Jan 2024] **:::::No one seems to be suggesting this goes into the lead sentence, and as far as policy goes, eerily similar material to [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] made it into the the Biden article as far back as July 4th, and it's STILL there. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 19:12, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::As is frequently pointed out to new users of this page, the fact that some other page on Wikipedia has a different consensus has no bearing on this one. That is usually understood when we are resisting putting something positive in, but seems all to quickly jettisoned when convenient. Regarding the Oaks Town Hall which precipitated this thread, neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources that Trump had some kind of mental episode. See for example: https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/trump-town-hall-derailed-after-medical-emergencies-crowd/story?id=114796716. I remain unconvinced that the content should be added. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::::{{tq|&quot;neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources&quot;}} **:::::::These threads get so long it's hard to keep track. Please link or cite examples of partisan and neutral sources to which you're referring if you get the chance, it would be very helpful. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC) **::::::Judging by the headlines, we shouldn't use the 2017 sources per the Goldwater rule (psychiatrists/psychologists diagnosing people they haven't seen as patients). [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:45, 22 October 2024 (UTC) **:::::::Also, I may a bit confused as to where this thread begins and ends. I may be unintentionally conflating the Oaks town hall and the Proposal: Age and health concerns...Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 21:38, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *The 39 minute weird man-dancing (partly to YMCA, a song about gay hookups of all things) may actually be the worst example of his cognitive decline as he was quiet instead of rambling nonsense. Indeed, it could be an example of something not at all recent. It certainly doesn't belong in this article. Perhaps elsewhere. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 00:18, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *:Not sure if you've seen the unbiased raw video of the Oaks, PA event. On the webpage of C-SPAN's presentation of the full video [https://www.c-span.org/video/?539179-1/president-trump-hosts-town-hall-oaks-pennsylvania], to the right there is a list of the points of interest in the video: Gov. Kristi Noem (R-SD) Remarks, Fmr. President Trump Remarks, Affordable Homeownership, Family Request Congressional Hearing, Cost of Living, Immigration, Russia-Ukraine War, Immigration &amp; Deportation, Medical Emergency. Notably missing from C-SPAN's list is &quot;weird man-dancing&quot;. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *::What's your point? The C-SPAN video shows the entire event. The music starts at 45:00 and continues until the end. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *:::For context, note that the first medical emergency began at 39:00, 6 minutes before your start time. Viewing the video starting at 39:00 will give a better idea of what's going on. Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 23:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC) *::::I've seen the video and I don't see your point either. Trump just said that he is ahead in every one of the 50 states in the polls. Every state. His goofy, silent dancing was far more rational. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 00:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} What particularly irritates me here is the double standard of invoking [[WP:MEDRS]] in regard to this. No-one is asking for Wikipedia to state that Trump has dementia, or that he has suffered a medical cognitive decline; the issue here is that his increasingly erratic behavior has become a significant news story, and is being reported in reputable MSM sources such as the NYT and WP, who have bent over backwards to be fair to Trump, wouldn't have dreamed of doing eveen a few months ago. Yet for some reason, we're not allowed to use these [[WP:RS]] to report these events and the public concern about them in the MSM. This is a profoundly un-encyclopedic things to do that breaks the fundamental [[WP:NPOV]] policy. Rejecting any mention of significant major MSM coverage because you don't like it is just another form of [[WP:OR]], &amp;mdash; [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 17:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :But that is the consensus on this article. That MEDRS sources are required, even to have the conversation technically. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 17:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :: If this is absolute, then it could not be in the Biden article. But it is. Therefore there is no way to deny the pro Trump bias. MEDRS cannot only protect Trump, but ignore Biden. To me the deletion sounds politically motivated. And that is a major problem. [[User:Andol|Andol]] ([[User talk:Andol|talk]]) 20:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::@[[User:Andol|Andol]] Look at the top of the page in [[Talk:Donald_Trump#Current_consensus|current consensus #39]]. Nothing is politically motived. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 22:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I made a [[WP:BOLD]] edit to see how this plays out [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Biden&amp;diff=1253059503&amp;oldid=1253057147]. Maybe there is consensus? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 04:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I'm good with it and hope it sticks. [[User:PackMecEng|PackMecEng]] ([[User talk:PackMecEng|talk]]) 14:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::Sorry DN, could you link to your change? I can't seem to find it. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:17, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::He changed it on the Joe Biden page, not the Trump one. I had the same confusion initially. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 20:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Ah. Thank you. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Please do NOT refer to me as &quot;he&quot;. They or them is fine. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :::::I disagree MEDRS applies there any more than it does here, but I don't particularly care if it's in the lead or how much weight to give to it, so long as it's there. I {{em|will}} revert if someone tries to remove all three paragraphs about it in the other article though. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 10:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::An editor has now re-added [[Age and health concerns about Joe Biden]] back into the lead on [[Joe Biden]]'s BLP. I am not going to remove it, and agree that we should leave it. IMO [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]] now seems over-[[WP:DUE|DUE]] here. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::Mx. Nipples, the existence of a section on another page has absolutely zero bearing on what should be on this one. None. We go by consensus, not by precedent. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 05:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC) {{cot|{{small|1=Off-topic about gender pronouns. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)}}}} ::::::::Please do not refer to me as &quot;Mx.&quot; or &quot;Mr.&quot; as that appears to be your intent. They/them is accurate. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{small|(Given that &quot;x&quot; is nowhere near &quot;r&quot; on a keyboard, I'm guessing &quot;Mx.&quot; was not a typo but an attempt to be gender neutral. It can be read as a convenient shorthand for &quot;Mr., Ms., or M-other, as you please&quot;. It's the best attempt available, since &quot;They/them Nipples&quot; would be nonsensical. Maybe we don't need to go any further down this rabbit hole, at least not on this page.) &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC)}} ::::::::::I simply asked for them not to call me that, I did not get upset or make a personal attack, I just made a simple request. I'm aware of what Mx. means and I simply do not wish be referred to in that manner. I do not care why you think it's any of your business or why you feel the need to intervene here, and that is a rabbit hole that certainly does not belong here. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::{{small|I read {{tq|1=&quot;Mr.&quot; as that appears to be your intent}} to mean you thought they meant (intended) &quot;Mr.&quot;. Sorry if I misread easily-misread writing. {{tq|1=I do not care why you think it's any of your business or why you feel the need to intervene here}} - Now you're gettin' me riled. Look, you comment on this page, regardless of the topic, and you open yourself up to replies from anybody. There are no &quot;private&quot; conversations here or almost anywhere else at Wikipedia. You want a &quot;private&quot; conversation, use email. That's how it works, like it or not. End. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:49, 28 October 2024 (UTC)}} ::::::::::::You're the one that brought it up ''here'', and I have since moved it to a personal talk page, where it belongs. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC) {{cob}} :::::::↑↑↑↑ Agree as to process. Other articles never affect this article ''unless a community consensus says they do for a specific discrete situation''. This is a common misconception, understandable given the human desire for consistency, but you won't find it anywhere in policy, and not for lack of attempts to make it so. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::That was more of an aside. See Riposte's removal of cited content on the current subject, referring to a now seemingly dormant discussion. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Yes.''' It's been covered extensively in media reports, which is the only criteria that really matters here. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 17:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Question''' [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253835469&amp;oldid=1253814840 edit] - There has been no further discussion here for the last few days. What is still being discussed? BTW, &quot;age and health concerns for Joe Biden&quot; was added back into his BLP in the lead, and I see no further arguments over MEDRS. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *:If you have a problem with the Biden page, take it to the Biden page. There is currently no consensus to add the disputed material to this page. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 05:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::I never had a problem with the Biden BLP, but I asked you what is left to discuss here. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 06:20, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::I'll ask again. What is left to discuss? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:27, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *:::I agree with you that there isn't a ton left to discuss. But the discussion did not end with your proposed addition achieving consensus. As already outlined in this thread: (1) [[WP:NOTSOURCE|wikipedia is not a source]], what occurs on a totally different page has no bearing on this one; and (2) Even if it did, the situations are clearly distinguishable. It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because ''it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race.'' The same is not true for Trump. Thus, since the situations are distinguishable and consensus has not adopted it, it's unlikely to be added. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 20:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::::To be clear, it wasn't ''my'' proposal, and the primary argument against the addition seemed to be that it violated MEDRS, not because this BLP needed to be like the Biden BLP. The Biden BLP was only used as an example of how the MEDRS argument didn't seem to hold water. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::::{{tq|&quot;It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race.&quot;}} *::::I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other? *::::Anyway, that content was added BEFORE Biden dropped out. *::::So, there goes that excuse. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::{{tq| I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other?}} We aren't. That's why I explicitly began the point with &quot;Even if it did&quot;. We don't use another page as a source, ''but even if we did,'' the situations are clearly distinguishable for the reasons already outlined throughout the post. The addition doesn't have consensus, so it's not going to be added at this time. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 13:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for the Oaks Town Hall to be used as evidence for concerns about age and health, especially in VOICE. Far from it. I simply disagree that there is any clear violation of MEDRS to include ''something like'' (below) *::::::*Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/22/trump-age-health/ WaPo] *::::::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::Well, that's not really what this thread entitled 'Oaks Town Hall' is about. Perhaps start a new one with your suggested text. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 21:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::Why start yet another thread? Seems like an additional time sink. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 21:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' - sorry, I missed this on the talk page. Now extensive and increasing sourcing on the topic. [[User:Blythwood|Blythwood]] ([[User talk:Blythwood|talk]]) 17:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *:Seems like the Harris campaign and news media have moved from age and health concerns to fascism. Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns? Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 19:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC) *::Seems there was a YouGov poll and pieces in Time magazine and the New Yorker, recently... *::&quot;As the calls grow for Donald Trump to release his medical records, Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris called out her opponent once more during a rally in Houston, Texas, on Friday. She pointed towards the legal battle of Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton and other Texas right wing leaders to access the private medical records of patients who seek out-of-state abortions.&quot; [https://time.com/7099183/donald-trump-medical-records-absent-controversy-presidential-election-2024/ Time 10-27-24] *::&quot;Over half of Americans, 56 percent, said they believe that Trump’s age and health would impact his ability to serve as commander-in-chief at least a little bit, according to another YouGov poll conducted earlier this month. *::Over one-third, 36 percent, said the former president will be “severely” undercut by his age and health. Another one-third, 33 percent, said those factors will not impact the Republican nominee. *::Inversely, 62 percent of Americans said Harris’s health and age will not affect her work in the White House if she is elected president, according to the survey.&quot; [https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4955179-growing-concerns-trump-biden-age/ The Hill 10-26-24] *::&quot;couple of weeks ago, Donald Trump turned in one of his strangest performances in a campaign with no shortage of them—part of a series of oddities that may or may not constitute an October surprise but has certainly made for a surprising October. 'Who the hell wants to hear questions?' he hollered at a town hall in Pennsylvania, after two attendees had suffered medical emergencies. Then he wandered the stage for nearly forty minutes, swaying to music from his playlist—'Ave Maria,' 'Y.M.C.A.,' 'Hallelujah.'&quot; [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/11/04/trumps-health-and-ours The New Yorker 10-27-24] *::&quot;An increasing number of Americans say Donald Trump is too old to be president — but not as many as when President Joe Biden faced similar concerns about his age over the summer. *::A new poll from YouGov found that 44 percent said Trump, at age 78, is too old to lead the executive branch. That figure is up from 35 percent who said the same in a similar February survey.&quot; [https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-age-voters-mental-health-b2636214.html The Independent 10-27-24] *::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::Respectfully, there is no way this is going to get consensus here. If you feel really strongly, maybe start an RfC. That would probably be the most appropriate way to displace the existing RfCs. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 07:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::I was replying to Bob K3416's recent request...&quot;Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns?&quot; *::::Your declarative statement may be a bit out of place in this context, and brings up what appears to be an inconsistency. *::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253835469&amp;oldid=1253814840] As you also stated in your recent removal of cited content that is months old (clarify - irl - not the article itself)... {{tq|&quot;This is still being discussed on the talk page&quot;}} *::::What are the means by which to reconcile {{tq|&quot;this is still being discussed&quot;}}, at the same time as, {{tq|&quot;there is no way this is going to get consensus here&quot;}}? *::::Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 08:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::Thanks for your response with the links. *:::::Regarding the rest of your message, the logic isn't clear. Various messages here are evidence that it is still being discussed and the point that you are trying to make with your sentence, &quot;What is the means...&quot; is unclear. For one thing, note that you are comparing an edit summary on the article page with a message on this talk page. Seems like apples and oranges. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 13:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::Darknipples has now edited their comment, although the argument isn't any more compelling imo. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 20:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::I was about to add (Btw I corrected my grammar slip) Reverting under the auspices of &quot;it's under discussion&quot;, gives the appearance of contradiction to the recent declaration that &quot;there is no way to achieve consensus&quot; *::::::Granted, I wouldn't completely disagree with Riposte97's removal of some of the context, but the rest seems like it could be DUE. (below) *::::::*Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates.&lt;ref name=&quot;Renewed scrutiny&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Kranish |first=Michael |date=July 22, 2024 |title=Trump's age and health under renewed scrutiny after Biden's exit |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/22/trump-age-health/ |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]] |access-date=13 October 2024 }}&lt;/ref&gt; *::::::A partial revert leaving this portion would seem fine. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 20:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::The second sentence wasn't in the given source. The insinuation of being in poor health since becoming a politician is contradicted by the fact that he served 4 years as president without any apparent chronic health problem or physical weakness, and he is currently vigorously campaigning for president. Be careful of age discrimination where healthy people are presumed weak and unhealthy because they are old. If you were elderly, healthy and strong, I don't think you would like people insinuating that you were unhealthy and weak because you were chronologically old. Be well. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 08:04, 30 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::{{tq|&quot;The second sentence wasn't in the given source.&quot;}} *::::::::Good catch, I pulled it from the edit that was reverted so maybe the citation might have been placed further in. *::::::::As far as &quot;insinuating he is in poor health&quot;, that is not what the proposal is about. The proposal was for reports regarding public concern for his age and health, that does not involve speculation or &quot;insinuate&quot; anything specific as to violate MEDRS. *::::::::*&quot;The age of presidential candidates has been a key issue for voters this year. A Washington Post-ABC News-Ipsos poll, conducted before last week’s Republican convention, found that 60 percent of Americans said Trump is too old for another term as president, including 82 percent of Democrats, 65 percent of independents and 29 percent of Republicans.&quot; *::::::::[[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 09:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::His age is already in the article. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 04:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::Water is wet. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Yes'''. There is overwhelming and [[WP:SUSTAINED]] coverage of it at this point; the fact that it is speculative (which some people object to above) doesn't matter, since we do cover speculation when it has sufficient coverage and is clearly relevant to the subject. As [[WP:BLP]] says, {{tq|If an '''allegation''' or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it}}, emphasis mine. For recent coverage, which someone requested above, see eg. &lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Americans are increasingly concerned about Donald Trump’s age and fitness for office|url=https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/50808-americans-are-increasingly-concerned-about-donald-trumps-age-and-fitness-for-office|website=today.yougov.com}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|first1=Rebecca|last1=Schneid|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=The Controversy Over Trump's Medical Records, Explained|url=https://time.com/7099183/donald-trump-medical-records-absent-controversy-presidential-election-2024/|date=27 October 2024|website=TIME}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|first1=Filip|last1=Timotija|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Many Americans worried about Trump’s age, but less than Biden: Survey|url=https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4955179-growing-concerns-trump-biden-age/|date=26 October 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=A growing number of Americans are concerned with Trump’s age|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-age-voters-mental-health-b2636214.html|date=27 October 2024|website=The Independent}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Trump would be the oldest person to become president. He's not sharing health details|url=https://apnews.com/article/trump-harris-presidential-election-age-health-medical-records-7bb8212c1024748371e43b85e137bae5|date=16 October 2024|website=AP News}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=Trump acts erratically. Is this age-related decline?|url=https://www.deccanherald.com/world/trump-acts-erratically-is-this-age-related-decline-3250551|website=Deccan Herald}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|first1=Joanne|last1=Lynn|accessdate=2024-10-31|title=I’m a geriatric physician. Here’s what I think is going on with Trump’s executive function|url=https://www.statnews.com/2024/10/30/trump-cognitive-health-executive-function-biden-aging-president/|date=30 October 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;; for older coverage, there's a massive number of sources on [[Age and health concerns about Donald Trump]]. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 15:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC) *'''Yes'''. See [[Public image of Donald Trump#Temperament]]. [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 23:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC) * I think it's time to close this discussion. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 03:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *:What rationale? Stale? Consensus? We need a rationale or we just let things fall off the page naturally. Of course we've just added another 14 days by merely saying this. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *::There is at least consensus to change Consensus item #39 (last modified July 2021) to allow discussion regarding Trump's mental health or fitness for office even without diagnosis. Biden's cognitive health has been in his article since 9/2023: [[Special:Diff/1175184377]] [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 06:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *::Uninvolved close sounds prudent. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC) *:I was confusing &quot;close with consensus assessment&quot; with &quot;close to get stuff off the page per consensus 13&quot;. Sorry Bob. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} == Another reverted edit == @[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] My edit was not whitewashing. It clarifies the view of the source, that &quot;research suggests Trump's rhetoric ''may have'' caused an increased incidence of hate crimes&quot;: a correlation, while not the opinion of the experts quoted in the source that it necessarily involves causation. As concerns the other edit, the &quot;clunky needless wording&quot; is a necessary detail. As it is now, it sounds like its saying that Trump dictated the letter to some secretary or whatnot, without the doctor present. In reality, he dictated it to the doctor, who told him what he couldn't put in it. [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 22:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC) :@[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 01:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC) ::I disagree with @[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]]’ assertion that your edit is whitewashing, but your edit is written in an argumentative matter. The previous statement states that the Trump comments highlighted were widely criticized, a plain true/false statement. Your “this is despite” implies your addition of text is a rebuttal to the general consensus. It is far from neutral and needs improvement. There should be more discussion on whether Trump’s implied clarification made soon after the comments in question as well. Do NOT edit until there is consensus. Hope this is helpful [[User:Slothwizard|Slothwizard]] ([[User talk:Slothwizard|talk]]) 02:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC) :::You appear to be confusing two reverts. This diff is the revert I'm talking about in this talk page section: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1251380654&amp;oldid=1251370072. The edit to the section about the allegations of white supremacy (which was also reverted) is discussed in [[Talk:Donald_Trump#reverted edit]]. [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 03:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC) ::::My bad. Your addition of Bornstein clarifying what he could not add was grammatically incorrect and unnecessary. Your second edit with adding “may” was not whitewashing; unfortunately the citations are not related to the claim, so I am not sure why that sentence is there in the first place. New sources or remove sentence; unless someone clarifies to me about this section. No editing until more discussion is made, would like to hear more opinions. [[User:Slothwizard|Slothwizard]] ([[User talk:Slothwizard|talk]]) 03:53, 22 October 2024 (UTC) :::::(Do we need to salute and shout &quot;Sir, yes, sir!&quot;?, or am I misreading telegram style?) Assuming that the edits in question are [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1251366835&amp;oldid=1251002499 this] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1251366835 this] one, reverted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1251370072 here], I agree with the revert. Bornstein: clunky &amp; needless. Trump rhetoric verified by the AP and WaPo cites: &quot;suggests&quot; says that the rhetoric may be the cause. If the sentence had read that &quot;research said that Trump's rhetoric caused ...&quot;, we'd have to say &quot;may have caused&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:00, 22 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::The detail is a necessary detail, citing what I have said above, but improvements to the grammar of the phrase can be made. [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 23:58, 22 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::I assume the repetition of Bornstein's name is what you are referring to when you say &quot;clunky&quot;. If it's the repetition of his name then which of these two do you think work? :::::::&quot;to him while Bornstein said what couldn't be put in it&quot; :::::::&quot;to him while Bornstein informed him what couldn't be put in it&quot; [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 01:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thoughts? [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 16:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::@[[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x|Space4Time3Continuum2x]] @[[User:Slothwizard|Slothwizard]] @[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] [[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 19:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::I haven't changed my mind. None of the proposed changes is an improvement. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::Do you have any thoughts on the proposed ways to improve the problems with the proposed edit?[[User:Anotherperson123|Anotherperson123]] ([[User talk:Anotherperson123|talk]]) 02:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::My thoughts are that this happened a month ago and no one really cares. Your suggested edit did not gain consensus so, drop it and move on. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 03:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC) == fascist in lead == is attributed to ten sources in the body, {{u|Zenomonoz}} [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 05:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :Fascism is an radical extreme nationalist ideology controlled by a dictator, this does not describe Trump or his ideologies, he is a nationalist, populist, and protectionist republican politician, as mentioned in the lead, “fascist” in this case is being used to describe someone you dislike. [[User:Big Mocc|Big Mocc]] ([[User talk:Big Mocc|talk]]) 23:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1252842766 :I’m actually having trouble finding your statement, that some of the people who used to work for him said he's a fascist, in the body. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 05:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::Milley, Mattis and Kelly. I can add those. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 05:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I think [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1252830365 your sentence] is too trivial to constitute a mention in the lead. It wouldn't make sense to include mention of positive characterisation by his former colleagues, either. What am I missing? [[User:Zenomonoz|Zenomonoz]] ([[User talk:Zenomonoz|talk]]) 05:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I contend that (now) 13 references to fascist in the body is not trivial, but rather a very significant matter that is worthy of lead inclusion for a man who seeks the presidency. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 06:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I now added them to the body, so there are now 13 attributions, which I believe is adequate for lead inclusion, and the inclusion is not up top.[https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/10/12/mark-milley-donald-trump-fascist/][https://www.thebulwark.com/p/mattis-told-woodward-he-agreed-trump][https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/22/politics/trump-fascist-john-kelly/index.html] [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 06:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::[[WP:LEAD]] isn't about number of cites. Per current article ''content'' on &quot;fascist&quot;, it clearly fails inclusion in the lead. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 06:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::please would you cite the specific verbiage of LEAD to which you refer? [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 07:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{tq|the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents.}} Mentioned once in a series (described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, fascist) in [[Donald Trump#2024 presidential campaign|2024 presidential campaign]] is not enough IMO; populist and authoritarian are also mentioned in [[Donald Trump#Campaign rhetoric and political positions|Campaign rhetoric and political positions]]. However, it wasn't just historians and scholars, it was also people (&quot;my generals&quot;) who worked for him during his term in office (Defense Secretary Mattis, Chief of Staff Kelly) and Milley, who was handpicked by Trump for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the top military job — hardly the kind of people that can be smeared as &lt;s&gt;far-left&lt;/s&gt; radical-left lunatics. If that is added to the body, then IMO we should add &quot;fascist&quot; to the lead. I haven't read Woodward's book yet, and I still have to go through the numerous sources that were added recently. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :I'm ultimately against the 'fascist' label being included as it's been a subject of contention and debate for 8 years now. The debate is more nuanced than how many citations we can find with the word being included –&amp;nbsp;which is why we should link to [[Trumpism]] where this nuance can be explored in-depth. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 07:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::yes, fascist has been discussed for years, and many have been reluctant and resistant to speak ''the word'', but we now have three senior generals who served him speaking the word, yet the word remains buried in 13 references in the body. I am not persuaded that at this point exclusion from the lead would persist in any other person's BLP under similar circumstances. The sentence does not say he is a fascist, but rather that some historians, scholars and generals have characterized him as such, which is consistent with the body. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 07:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::Isn't Trump the [[de facto]] leader of a [[neo-fascist]] party? The main article on the ideology describes it as including &quot;nativism, xenophobia, and anti-immigration sentiment&quot; [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 07:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::We don't describe the GOP as being a neo-fascist party on Wikipedia. There are far-right elements to the party, for sure, but again that's why we can't extrapolate and say the ''whole'' party is neo-fascist and that Trump is their leader, therefore he is fascist. ::::The topic of whether Trumpism is fascist is still hotly debated, hence why a link to the article where that debate takes place is more appropriate. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 07:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Agreed. I'd also reiterate Czello's point that the lead follows the text of the body. Unless something stated in the body, it should be in the lead. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 08:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::waaay down there, the body says &quot;fascist&quot; with 13 references [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Trumpism would not exist without Trump. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::I'm not sure what argument you're making here. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 08:17, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::I see no cause to deflect to [[Trumpism]] when its source is Trump, so it belongs here [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:24, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Because the Trumpism article is where we can dedicate more space to the nuance of the discussion. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 08:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::I don't see nuance of discussion there and a short conclusive sentence here as mutually exclusive [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 08:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::The article is nuanced discussion from beginning to end. It's pretty solely dedicated to exploring the intricacies of the ideoloy and its leanings. The whole point of having splinter articles is so that we can dedicate more space to exploring these topics more fully without overburdening the parent article –&amp;nbsp;and, in this case, an article that is already much too big. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 09:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::I would be disinclined at the moment. If we're counting sources, 10 (or 13?) sources out of about 850 is worth maybe about a third of a sentence? I don't think it would be easy to appropriately contextualise that. Relative to the body, we have short paragraph, not entirely about fascism, mentioning it briefly. I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 08:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::Seems notable according to [[Steven Levitsky]] and the NYT...&quot;never before has a presidential nominee — let alone a former president — openly suggested turning the military on American citizens simply because they oppose his candidacy.&quot; [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/15/us/politics/trump-opponents-enemy-within.html NYT 10-15-2024]. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 10:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::So notable I do not see the word &quot;fascist&quot; there. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::DN, Do you believe Trump said that as depicted by that excerpt? [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Bob, SS, I was replying to Alpha's statement - &quot;I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully.&quot; I have not commented on the fascist label as of yet, so please hold your horses. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Bob. I have started a couple talk page sections with sources on authoritarian rhetoric. See [[Talk:Donald Trump#2024 campaign rhetoric &quot;The enemy within&quot;]] &amp; [[Talk:Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Rhetoric Section Fails NPOV]] subsection (&quot;The enemy within&quot; rhetoric). Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 23:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :Two minds this is a BLP, but it is an accusation that is out there, but does this take up a significant part of our article? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::My estimate is that less than 1% of the current article body can be said to address fascism or topics directly adjacent. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 10:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::I agree with this analysis. As pointed out by @[[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]], it's the ''content of the article '', not number or variety of sources that determine what's in the lead, and the amount of the article that is actually about fascism or fascist-adjacent is low. I think most people on both sides of the aisle understand that this is primarily just a mudslinging pejorative term used in the course of politics. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 14:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Agreed, and that's precisely why it's UNDUE for the lead. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 12:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :Putting &quot;fascist&quot; in the lead, would be quite problematic. Indeed, attempts to add such a label shortly before the US prez election, doesn't look too good as it's likely to stir up emotions. In other words, the timing stinks. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::Arguments on DUE vs UNDUE aside, I agree that the stability of the article is concerning, and while these issues are separate, they are in no way mutually exclusive. This is the crux of Wikipedia's &quot;Achilles heel&quot; which puts a huge strain on admin and editors alike during elections. IMO though, it is an important discussion that should be held elsewhere, perhaps at the Village Pump. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 23:31, 23 October 2024 (UTC) :::Historians and academics should be removed..... just American Media..... zero peer-reviewed academic journals listed as sources. &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold;color:darkblue&quot;&gt;[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]&lt;/span&gt;🍁 23:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC) ::::What leads you to believe the two are mutually exclusive? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC) ::I'd usually agree, but with the assertions by the former Chief of Staff being the latest, this may be inching towards an actual, genuine descriptor of his actions and beliefs, rater than just a political pejorative. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 23:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :::this is no longer about randos calling people they hate fascists and communists and terrorists and pedophiles and any other perjorative they can imagine. it's about Milley, Mattis and Kelly, top military officers he hired and they served under, in the Oval Office. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 00:55, 25 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Call me a stuffy academic, but I don't believe &quot;top military officer&quot; is a qualification that is of any use (expert opinion) for distinguishing what is fascism and what is merely other forms of far-right authoritarian populism. Leaving weight concerns aside, the attribution required would be entirely too unwieldy in my opinion. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 10:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Well everyone knows people who get fired arent bias. Plus its on msnbc, cnn, and others. It must be true. I really had to see if it is true. I voted for the evil orange man. Versus the hyena. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B]] ([[User talk:2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|talk]]) 03:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::According to [https://www.npr.org/2024/10/29/nx-s1-5164488/harris-trump-fascist-explained NPR],Kamala Harris said it,and Historians are debating [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 21:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{cot|{{small|1=[[WP:NOTFORUM]] and [[WP:NPA]] vios. At least. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)}}}} ::::@[[User:Soibangla|Soibangla]] Ironic that the very fascism taking root in America, expressed by the fascist sympathizers and enablers here (now echoed in Musk’s tantrum in on Twitler, I meant, Twitter…sorry, typo) IS the only reasonable explanation for excluding well-sourced and documented Trump’s fascism in the lead where it is MORE than [[WP:NOTABLE]]. If Trump’s own chief of staff, who was a General no less, says that Trump is the very definition of fascism, then what more do we need? Wikipedia remains broken as MAGA marches on. [[Special:Contributions/2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3|2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3]] ([[User talk:2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3|talk]]) 20:47, 29 October 2024 (UTC) {{cob}} == Trumps felon status should be added to his intro summary == This is literally done for everyone on Wikipedia except for Trump. This is a wilful hiding of information that is favorable to Trump and hides this important information from his google search summary. Please add, convicted felon to his intro to show an unbiased article. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3|2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3|talk]]) 15:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :is it? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :It is in the lead, in the final paragraph. A [[Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_170#RfC_on_use_of_&quot;convicted_felon&quot;_in_first_sentence|recent discussion]] concluded it shouldn't be in the first sentence. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 15:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC) :no, per [[MOS:CRIMINAL]]. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 10:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :^ [[Special:Contributions/2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881|2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881]] ([[User talk:2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881|talk]]) 08:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::yes it should be added plus president 45 and 47 :) [[Special:Contributions/2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B]] ([[User talk:2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B|talk]]) 03:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :Please remove any terms referring to Trump as a &quot;felon&quot; or &quot;convicted felon&quot; from the lede and anywhere else throughout this page. Trump is not a &quot;felon&quot; or even a &quot;convicted felon&quot; until the JUDGE that is actually overseeing the case CONVICTS him and SENTENCES him. THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET. This is how the legal system actually works for those who do not know. :Any publication, news outlet or otherwise, is actually guilty of LIBEL for referring to someone who hasn't been convicted and sentenced BY THE JUDGE as such. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 01:44, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::Incorrect, per Wikipedia content policy. See [[WP:TRUMPRCB]] for elaboration on this point. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:57, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::More specifically, the policy at [[WP:BLPCRIME]] addresses this. It says nothing about ''sentencing''. He has been convicted. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::He has not been convicted. The jury has merely rendered a verdict. The judge can still throw away that verdict. :::Trump is not a convicted felon. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 21:46, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::And please refer to [[WP:SHOUT]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::And even Wikipedia's definition of convict says he has to be sentenced as well: :::&quot;A convict is &quot;a person found guilty of a crime and sentenced by a court&quot; Convict - Wikipedia :::AND sentenced by a court. AND, not OR. Because a jury cannot &quot;convict&quot; only a JUDGE can. If you want to know why Trump won, this is why. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 21:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::[[WP:CIRC|Wikipedia may not be used as a source for itself]]. Please provide reliable sources for your claim that Trump has not been convicted, or refer to [[WP:NOR]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::::This source good? Official Justice dept website :::::https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-609-evidence-conviction [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96|2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96|talk]]) 01:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::No. That source says nothing about Trump. See [[WP:SYNTH]]. Looking for reliable sources that say something like, &quot;Trump has been found guilty but not convicted.&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::&quot;In United States practice, conviction means a finding of guilt (i.e., a jury verdict or finding of fact by the judge) and imposition of sentence.&quot; :::::::That says it all. He is not a convict. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::You're [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/convict confusing the noun with the verb]. A jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts, i.e., he was convicted of a felony. That makes him a felon. The judge hasn't sentenced him yet, therefore he's not a convict, i.e., under sentence for a crime, which is exactly what [[Convict]] says. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 00:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I would be ready with updates for the 'Donald Trump convicted felon' part. Donald Trump's New York hush money case has been called off as the court decides how to move forward. The Trump Manhattan Fraud Case brought forth by Alvin Bragg has been stayed. It is indefinitely 'adjourned' as the Trump legal team moves to outright dismiss the case. More sources will follow this continuing development. [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14101607/donald-trump-hush-money-sentencing-called-off.html Donald Trump's hush money sentencing is called off] Daily Mail. &quot;The case could be delayed until after Trump exits the White House in four years or be dismissed outright.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 13:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::[[WP:DAILYMAIL|The Daily Mail is not a reliable source.]] '''''[[User:LilianaUwU|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:default;color:#246BCE;&quot;&gt;Liliana&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:#FF1493;&quot;&gt;UwU&lt;/span&gt;]]''''' &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:LilianaUwU|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/LilianaUwU|contributions]])&lt;/sup&gt; 13:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Here are USA Today and Bloomberg for more sources. There are many more. [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trumps-nov-26-hush-money-sentencing-in-ny-called-off-without-explanation/ar-AA1umZ9o Trump's Nov. 26 hush money sentencing in NY called off without explanation] Bloomberg. &quot;Whether Justice Juan Merchan decides the hush money case should proceed to sentencing, gets delayed for four years or is simply dismissed outright is an open question hanging over the president-elect.&quot; :::::::[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/11/19/trump-sentencing-hush-money-case-adjourned/76190286007/ Donald Trump's Nov. 26 sentencing in hush money case on hold as prosecution due to weigh in] USA Today. &quot;President-elect Donald Trump's Nov. 26 sentencing date in his New York hush money case is on hold as prosecutors face a Tuesday deadline to advise the judge on how to proceed in light of Trump's election victory.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 14:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::The only thing that might affect &quot;convicted felon&quot; is a successful self-pardon. Per policy, we will look to reliable sources as to whether that means he was never convicted&amp;mdash;our personal reasoning is irrelevant, as are (as I understand it) legal sources that don't specifically talk about Trump. Anyway, we are probably at least six months away from even considering a change, so this is more than a little premature. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I appreciate it. I would imagine the change will occur in under 9 weeks or before January 21th, 2025, possibly sooner. I guess it's a wait and see. Cheers. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 14:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I mean pardons can't erase historical events, just the present definition. If he self pardon it should be noted he self pardoned. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::&quot;A jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts, i.e., he was convicted of a felony.&quot; :::::Juries do not convict. Only a judge can do that. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == Adding links to the lead == I am seeking a consensus to add these links to the lead: #populist, protectionist, and nationalist --&gt; [[populist]], [[protectionist]] and [[nationalist]] #*These are specific enough terms that the average Jane probably isn't going to know a lot about. #*I have wanted to click on these before and couldn't. Why not just link them? #building a wall --&gt; [[Trump wall|building a wall]] #*This was a major part of Trump's 2016 rhetoric. #*There is an article on it. #initiated a trade war --&gt; [[China-United States trade war|initiated a trade war]] #*It's a specific and very important moment in his presidency. #*There is an article on it. What do y'all think? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 20:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC) :Blanket-'''oppose''' new links in the lead, per my opposition to steering readers from the lead to other articles, bypassing the related body content. [[User:Mandruss/sandbox|Lead-to-body links]] are a potential major improvement over no links in the lead, but that effort has stalled. That said, [[China-United States trade war|a trade war with China]], not [[China-United States trade war|initiated a trade war]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Support''', as these are useful and relevant links to the average reader which don't make the lead too bloated and provide value for those who want to read more about it. I'd also suggest linking &quot;[[Political positions of Donald Trump|his political positions]]&quot;. If we'd want to take a more restrictive approach to keep the lead clean, we could leave the links to &quot;populist, protectionist, and nationalist&quot; out, as these are links to general articles not directly related to Trump or his actions. However, the argument that we should try to avoid &quot;steering readers from the lead to other articles&quot; seems rather patronizing and not very rational to me. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 21:44, 26 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Support''' - helps the reader further understand the topic of the article per [[MOS:BUILD]]. The mentioned links are all important concepts for the article which the general reader will not be familiar with. --[[User:Guest2625|Guest2625]] ([[User talk:Guest2625|talk]]) 02:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose''' - We've enough links in the lead. Keep adding more &amp; we'll end up with a [[WP:SEAOFBLUE]] situation. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 02:47, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::This isn't a good argument, either logically or based on precedent. For starters, &quot;we've enough&quot; isn't argument, just a statement that means nothing without reasoning to back it up. Why do you believe we already have enough? ::And do you truly think the [[slippery slope fallacy|slope is that slippery]]? On ''this'' page? What is being proposed will not create any SEAOFBLUE issues, and this page will likely never contain any SEAOFBLUE issues in the lead for any lengthy period of time. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 03:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::On ''this'' page? Oh yes, the slope can be that slippery. PS - I still oppose your proposal. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:21, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose'''. See consensus 60, which, incidentally, resulted from the RfC in which you proposed ten other links. Seems to me that we've been heading down the slippery slope ever since because we already have several Wikilinks that violate the consensus (i.e., items that were in the lead at the time of the RfC, e.g., &quot;many false and misleading statements&quot; and others). And, obviously, items that were added later (e.g. felony convictions). {{tq|Helps the reader further understand the topic of the article per [[MOS:BUILD]]}} — reading the article and not just the lead would help. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:25, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::All you do is essentially referring to an old RfC and arguing that adding more links would violate the consensus reached back then, which is not an argument in itself. We gave valid arguments for why we think that adding further links would be an improvement. Like I already wrote, I think trying to force users to read the article by deliberately not adding links is quite patronizing and not very rational. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 14:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::Yeah, well, that &quot;old RfC&quot; is part of the current consensus, whether you consider it &quot;patronizing and irrational&quot; or not. [[WP:LEAD]] says {{tq|The lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents}}, not a collection of links to other pages. Nobody is forcing anybody to read anything on WP. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I know that this is the current consensus, and Cessaune and I are challenging it, arguing that adding the proposed links would be an improvement. So far, there has not been a single argument against including the proposed links; simply noting that adding further links would violate the current consensus is a mere observation, and citing this as a reason against the proposal is circular reasoning. [[User:Maxeto0910|Maxeto0910]] ([[User talk:Maxeto0910|talk]]) 15:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::1) I would tend to disagree that the RfC precluded the addition of new links. But let's assume it does. People such as yourself should've been jumping over themselves to revert. If people didn't/don't care to, then it couldn't have been all that important, or—my preferred theory—editors recognize the utility and don't see a problem with it. If, according to you, the outcome of the RfC has been effectively ignored by a lot of different people (including YOU, the author of a tenth of the text on this page and a quarter of the edits—someone who must've been very aware of this) that means... what exactly? Help me out here, because I'm genuinely confused. ::::2) If the consensus suggests that we are only allowed to add those links, I'm challenging the consensus directly here. So the outcome of the RfC is irrelevant. ::::3) Do you have an actual argument against adding the links? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 17:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::As to process, we have usually required ''significant new argument(s) or a significant change in the external situation'' to revisit an existing consensus. Otherwise, it's a simple roll of the dice that depends on who happens to show up; we could reverse the existing consensus only to have it restored in a few months after a change in the editor mix, back and forth indefinitely (make that make sense). Otherwise, it's a settled issue and time-limited volunteers have better ways to contribute than putting the same ingredients through the same machinery to see if we get a different product. It is not constructive to allow repeated bites at the same apple, and consensuses don't require periodic &quot;refresh&quot;. Unless you meet one of those criteria for revisitation, you and Cessaune challenging the existing consensus is no different from you and Cessaune having opposed it and ended up on the losing side. Do you meet either of them? (In this case, there doesn't appear to be any &quot;external situation&quot; [external to Wikipedia] that could change, significantly or otherwise. So that leaves significant new argument(s).){{pb}}By the by, the above reasoning is supported at [[WP:CCC]] (policy) in language about as strong as language ever gets in Wikipedia PAGs outside of [[WP:BLP]]: &quot;Editors may propose a change to current consensus, ''especially to raise previously unconsidered arguments or circumstances''.&quot; My emphasis. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:13, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::::I would say that the Abraham Accords RfC is where I stopped agreeing with this kind of philosophy. There were random, relatively frequent discussions all the time as to whether the Abraham Accords were DUE in the article, and all of them ended in 'consensus against' for literal YEARS. Until one of them didn't. I was very certain that an RfC wasn't warranted, and when one happened, I was somewhat certain that the outcome was going to come out as no consensus or consensus against. Yet here we are. This is a very similar situation. ::::What if I were to suggest that the want to lead readers to information trumps the want to steer readers to the body? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::::{{tq|Until one of them didn't.}} Did that one consider significant new arguments? I don't know much about the situation; had there been a significant change in the external situation that increased the DUEness? If either is true, that revisitation was warranted under this &quot;philosophy&quot;. If neither is true, the consensus change was solely due to a change in editor mix, which is precisely what we seek to avoid.{{pb}}What if somebody comes along who disagrees with the current Abraham Accords consensus? Would you support yet another revisitation, actively countering &quot;AGAIN??&quot; complaints, or do you assert &quot;settled issue&quot; when the current consensus is to your liking? Logically, those are the only two options if you reject this &quot;philosophy&quot;.{{pb}}{{tq|What if I were to suggest that the want to lead readers to information trumps the want to steer readers to the body?}} I was hoping to avoid this. If you were to suggest that to me, I would respond that you should pick up [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mandruss/sandbox&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1219737664 the ball you dropped in April] and get us moving on lead-to-body links again. They would serve both goals, leading readers to information while steering them to the body, and are the ultimate solution to this perennial problem.{{pb}}All of your three proposed items should be supported in this article's body&amp;mdash;else it's a bright red flag that the lead does not properly summarize the body&amp;mdash;so lead-to-body links could be used for those items. The link might need to be structured differently in some cases; for example [[User:Mandruss/sandbox|the current sandboxing]] includes: &quot;During the campaign, his political positions [[Donald Trump#Campaign rhetoric and political positions|were described]] as populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist.&quot; If we think links to [[Populist]], [[Protectionist]], and [[Nationalist]] are warranted, they could and should be provided inline in the body prose.{{pb}}Thus, lead-to-body links would both encourage and facilitate what are already widely-supported best practices.{{pb}}Too often forgotten or dismissed: The level of detail in this article's body will meet the needs and desires of many readers, who are not served by facilitating, even encouraging them to bypass our body. Steer readers to the body first, then let them decide whether to drill deeper. Some will and others won't, and everybody will be well-served and happy.{{pb}}Even if they choose not to read the body content, it's usually only one more click to reach the relevant other article. That effort may be compared to the effort of searching this massive table of contents for the body content elaborating on (and supporting) something you read in the lead. You think that's easy? Pretend you're new to the article and its ToC, forget everything you know about them, and try it for a few cases (no cherry picking). I think you'll find it's much harder than clicking a link in a hatnote at the top of a section you were just directed to. This equation may be different in shorter articles, which is why lead-to-body links should be nothing more than a local option; but they are ''sorely'' needed at at least one article&amp;mdash;this one&amp;mdash;and very likely others.{{pb}}We offer a hierarchy of detail&amp;mdash;lead→body→other articles&amp;mdash;and lead-to-body links merely make it as accessible as possible&amp;mdash;all of it, not just the first, third, and subsequent levels of detail. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::1) I actually tried to resume working on lead-to-body links, but I kept getting shut down by more experienced template editors and I still don't know how to solve the issue of switching text colors from white to black depending on the user's chosen theme. ::::::2) If lead-to-body links aren't an option, then what? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 03:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::1a) &quot;Shut down&quot; how and on what basis? 1b) Doesn't sound insurmountable to me.{{pb}}2) Premature question. As far as I'm concerned, they're an option until our best shot fails. We can cross that bridge if and when we come to it. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I'll ask again to see if anyone knows how to solve the theme issue. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 04:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{ping|Cessaune}} I suggest vagueness, leaving the reason for asking out of it if at all possible. Regrettably, many editors will find reasons why &quot;it can't be done&quot; (or will merely be less helpful than they could be) if they oppose the underlying goal/proposal. And this is not an issue to be resolved in template space, [[WP:VPT]], etc. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Also, for the record, I'd be willing to suggest that pushing this is functionally the same as pushing for more links in the lead, considering that efforts of this sort have been shut down before... [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 16:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::In my view, what we're proposing now is significantly superior to what has been shut down before (that's a whole other discussion). We've had more experience articulating the argument, so we do it better now. We've seen some of the major opposition arguments, so we can counter them before they're made. And it's had time to attract a larger support base, including Khajidha below. So I wouldn't let the past predict the future in this case. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;functionally the same&quot;. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose''' any and all links in lead. Full stop. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 12:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::Clarification, &quot;links&quot; here refers to links to other articles. I still think the experiment we had with links to the relevant sections of this article was a good idea. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 12:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :::Do you have a justification for this? [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 16:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Oppose ''' [[Special:Contributions/132.147.140.229|132.147.140.229]] ([[User talk:132.147.140.229|talk]]) 16:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC) :'''Support'''. This is what wikilinks are for. Arguments that adding links to the lead cause the article to be underdeveloped are quite unconvincing. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 16:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::'''Oppose''',we have a policy on this,Citations not needed in the lead [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 18:51, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::A citation and a link are completely different things. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 19:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::'''Neutral''' ,then,in that case [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 21:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == something feels missing on lead == By reading the lead, this is an exceptionally different read than other politican pages on wikipedia. It is almost exclusivelly composed of criticism. It feels extremelly strange that there is almost no direct analysis of how Trump won the US election. This is the only phrase that refers to it: &quot;During the campaign, his political positions were described as populist, protectionist, and nationalist.&quot; It feels so underdeveloped, indirect, as if it was avoiding the topic entirelly. Am I the only one feeling that this is an issue? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 10:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :No as the lede is a summery, the body is for more detailed reading into the subject. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:31, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :There are dozens if not hundreds of Wikipedia articles about Trump. His single-page, top-level biography is not the place to fully address things like {{tq|direct analysis of how Trump won the US election.}} Interested readers need to drill a little deeper than this article&amp;mdash;a task made very easy by the in-context links found in the article.{{pb}}As for {{tq|almost exclusivelly composed of criticism}}, read [[Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias]]. Since your comment has a little specificity, I'm opting not to close this thread per [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 61. Other editors are free to disagree, as always. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC) ::Nothing against the criticism. Also I am asking, not even touched the edit button, so it would be kind of aggressive to shut the topic down immediatelly. ::I am not talking about fully adress, with &quot;direct analysis&quot; I still meant a summarization, same as it is done with criticism. ::I've read the link you are providing. It states &quot;Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires us to report the bad (negative) with the good (positive), and the '''neither-bad-nor-good''', '''in rough proportion''' to what's said in reliable sources, which in this case are '''largely major news outlets'''.&quot; ::I just remember that Trump victory was not an easy prediction, that it was very notable and widely analised by major news outlet. Just that. This is the main reason why the lead sounds weird to me. Like I said there is that phrase that at least refers to why he could have won, but it is very much indirect. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC) :::Ok, but this can't go anywhere unless you propose specific change(s), supported by reliable sources. It's fairly uncommon for someone else to take up your banner just because you brought up the topic. If you ask, &quot;Who supports me on this?&quot;, the common response will be &quot;I don't know, that depends on the specifics. I don't support or oppose vague generalities.&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Sorry for the late reply. I couldn't edit in the past week. ::::I think it is a reasonable path to ask for other editors opinions before having a fully formed one myself to propose an edit. ::::I don't know what the best formulation would be to add a phrase about why and how Trump won his first election. But, like I said, I feel that it is a crucial piece of info currently missing. This feeling is supported by reading reliable sources at the time obviously. The fact that Trump won was arguably the most notable event of his life, full of social insights. ::::Also note, and that's what I found strange, that there is (as it should) a whole paragraph about that election already. Russian interference is noted, him losing the popular vote is noted, protests are noted, his campaign tone is noted yet... No direct mention or why/how he won. ::::Again, how do you, and other editors, feel about this? I am not asking anybody to take my banner, feel free to disagree. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The Electoral College. He won because of the Electoral College. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 14:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::@[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] thank you for coming to the discussion. That is already presented on the paragraph! It is clearly written that he lost the popular vote. ::::::Don't you think that one phrase with analysis of why he won could be helpful? Note that the lead for [[2016 United States presidential election]] is attempting to do something like that, with poor results in my opinion. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::No. The mechanics of the win is relevant to the election article and the article about his presidency, but not really to this article. Especially not to the lead. This is the article about Trump (the person), the fact that he won the 2016 election is the important part for the intro here. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 14:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Fair enough, is should be more developed on those two pages' leads. ::::::::But there already are broader social informations on the election paragraph in this lead. It mentions that Russia interfered to favor Trump, despite not being an action of Trump (the person), and the subsequent protests. How is a single phrase that directly refers to why he won less relevant than those two elements? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 15:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Just to further develop the very strange approach of this lead I want to point out how the very high quality lead of [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]] reads out. I am obviously choosing this lead NOT as a comparison of Hitler and Trump, but to showcase how even for an highly negative biography's lead there should always be room for social analysis. :::::::::{{tq|He was decorated during his service in the German Army in World War I, receiving the Iron Cross. In 1919, he joined the German Workers' Party (DAP), the precursor of the Nazi Party, and in 1921 was appointed leader of the Nazi Party.}} :::::::::This helps readers understand his rise to power. You could argue Trump's lead does the same, but I don't think it does. The references to his business empire don't connect at all to his political activities. :::::::::{{tq|After his early release in 1924, Hitler gained popular support by attacking the Treaty of Versailles and promoting pan-Germanism, antisemitism, and anti-communism with charismatic oratory and Nazi propaganda.}} :::::::::This directly connects his policies and style to popular support. :::::::::{{tq|Domestically, Hitler implemented numerous racist policies and sought to deport or kill German Jews. His first six years in power resulted in rapid economic recovery from the Great Depression, the abrogation of restrictions imposed on Germany after World War I, and the annexation of territories inhabited by millions of ethnic Germans, which initially gave him significant popular support.}} :::::::::This again connects his most negative actions to a complex set of economic and social relationships. :::::::::It would be very naive to frame lead writing as positive vs negative. The Trump's lead is currently avoiding any high quality summarization, shielding itself behind a fact checked style. I understand the difficulty of improving it, since this is a BLP and it will be challenged down to the comma. Still, the issue is there. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 16:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::@[[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]],Agreed,Wikipedia has to not take sides [[User:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;UnsungHistory&lt;/span&gt;]] ([[User talk:UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: Purple&quot;&gt;Questions or Concerns?&lt;/span&gt;]]) ([[Special:Contributions/UnsungHistory|&lt;span style=&quot;color: red&quot;&gt;See how I messed up&lt;/span&gt;]]) 18:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::this isn't that much about sides, criticism on lead are a good thing (per MOS) and are actually a big improvement on other politician pages. The issue is not having context (also required by MOS lead) to make sense of the info, even for the most notable facts as winning the election. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == Replacing the caption of Trump's 1964 yearbook picture == I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1253907319&amp;oldid=1253846000 changed the caption] from &quot;Trump at &lt;s&gt;the&lt;/s&gt; [[New York Military Academy]], 1964&quot; to read &quot;Trump 1964 yearbook picture with medals borrowed from a classmate&quot;, with cite, and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1253907319 reverted] with the editsum &quot;Unnecessary and conveys less information&quot;. (I've since corrected the caption; New York Military Academy is a name like Whittier High School.) My proposed caption needs to be corrected, too: &quot;Trump's 1964 yearbook picture with medals borrowed from a classmate&quot;. It conveys more information than the current one which doesn't say that it's a yearbook picture; the name of the school is unnecessary since you can read it in [[Donald Trump#Early life|Early life]]. Borrowed medals: if Trump had been a member of the military, that would have been called &quot;stolen valor&quot;. {{cot|Buettner/Craig text}} If Donald resented taking orders from a contemporary like Witek, he still craved the tokens of status conferred by the system. Like most cadets, he had earned a few medals for good conduct and being neat and orderly. But his friend, Michael Scadron, had a full dozen by their senior year. On the day yearbook portraits were being taken, Donald showed up in Scadron’s barracks room and asked to borrow his dress jacket with the medals attached, Scandron told us. Donald wore those medals for the portrait, perplexing some of his fellow cadets. “He’s wearing my medals on his uniform,” Scadron later recalled. “I didn’t care one way or the other.” {{cob}} Vanity Fair [https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/donald-trump-status-military-academy published a longer excerpt]. It's the earliest example we have for Trump lying about his accomplishments/successes, illusion rather than reality. IMO that's less trivial than the yearbook picture itself. Opinions? [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :Either remove the picture or make it clear these are not his medals. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC) ::The detail about the medals (as reprehensible as it is) is not something that belongs in the caption. The whole affair should be covered in the article text.--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 22:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :::Agreed. Better covered in prose, subject to DUE as always. I'm not convinced it clears the bar, but that's really a separate issue that could be handled separately for the sake of organization. I'm confident you don't need to be informed that {{tq|as reprehensible as it is}} is irrelevant for our purposes; moral judgments are never a factor. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Yep, I was just trying to make it plain that I am not trying to hide unflattering facts.--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 00:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::::We should never need to explain ourselves like that, in my book. It's essentially apologizing for being a good editor. If someone suspects you of {{tq|trying to hide unflattering facts}}, that's on them. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:05, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::How about the caption &quot;Trump's 1964 yearbook picture&quot;? I don't think the name of the boarding school is more important than the fact that it's a yearbook picture. And for the uninitiated it sounds as though Trump was a cadet at an actual [[United States service academies|military academy]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::::{{tq|I don't think the name of the boarding school is more important than the fact that it's a yearbook picture.}} Omit the almost-obvious. Sure, he could've had the portrait made just so he could carry it in his wallet and gaze upon it from time to time, but that's not going to be a reader's first guess. {{tq|And for the uninitiated it sounds as though Trump was a cadet at an actual military academy.}} The adjacent prose says NYMA is &quot;a private boarding school&quot;. We're not catering to readers who just look at the pretty pictures and read their captions. And the only &quot;1964&quot; currently in the prose is about entering Fordham. So your proposal would be confusing, requiring readers to know that Fordham students don't wear uniforms. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Violation of [[WP:NPOV]], and not relevant to what is being discussed. [[User:Eg224|Eg224]] ([[User talk:Eg224|talk]]) 19:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ===Wording of sentence on Trump attending New York Military Academy=== :@[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] you appear to have violated the contentious topics procedure by reverting the restoration of longstanding content. Please self-revert immediately. :I note that the New York Military Academy uses a definite article when referring to itself. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 21:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC) ::It seems you have invented a designation that appears nowhere in [[WP:CTOP]], and even if it did, it would not apply to simple grammatical tweaks. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC) :::It's a 1RR violation. The content is clearly disputed, so it should be dealt with on the talk page. Again, please self revert while we discuss it here. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 23:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC) ::::One revert is not a 1RR violation. Please do not bandy about terms which you appear to be unfamiliar with. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:51, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Take it to AN. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 22:51, 31 October 2024 (UTC) I've now reverted the text to the longstanding version which wasn't the one I edited yesterday — another editor edited part of the sentence on October 16, so IMO 1RR wouldn't apply. The wording of the sentence is a separate issue from the caption. As for the school using the definite article when referring to itself, they do and they don't. (And does it matter? See Trump University.) Here are three examples for the school referring to itself and another private school the correct way: &quot;At NYMA, we’re dedicated to preparing you for the future&quot;; &quot;At NYMA, our partnership with Canterbury Brook Academy (CBA) significantly enriches students’ holistic development&quot;; &quot;The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;. And an example of the incorrect way: &quot;The mission of the New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;. (Not a typo, same sentence, once with &quot;the&quot; and once without.) &lt;small&gt; Names of colleges, universities, and other schools. Use &quot;the&quot; if the school’s title includes &quot;of&quot; or &quot;for&quot; (University of Maryland, Perkins School for the Blind). Don't use &quot;the&quot; if the school is named for a person or place (Baylor University, Harvard University).&lt;/small&gt; *Longstanding content: At age 13, he entered the [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school. *Proposed wording: At age 13, his father sent him to [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school. Reason: Trump didn't enter of his own volition, his parents entered him at NYMA. Kranish/Fisher: &quot;Near the end of seventh grade, Fred discovered Donald’s knives and was infuriated to learn about his trips into the city. He decided his son’s behavior warranted a radical change. In the months before eighth grade, Fred Trump enrolled Donald at the New York Military Academy, a boarding school 70 miles from Jamaica Estates.&quot; Gwenda Blair: &quot;In 1959, when he was thirteen, Donald Trump went off to New York Military Academy (NYMA) ... an institution that in the fall of 1959 resembled a child's toy soldier set&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :Re the &quot;the&quot;, can we agree that site-wide consistency as to the NYMA case is a worthy goal? If so, we need a single venue to discuss and decide the issue, which can then be easily found and referenced by editors of &lt;del&gt;other&lt;/del&gt; articles containing references to NYMA. I would suggest the NYMA article, which currently omits the &quot;the&quot;. In other words, any discussion of guidelines and other factors should occur there, not here. The discussion here should be: &quot;The NYMA article omits the 'the'. End.&quot;{{pb}}This is one of the very few situations where a different article should influence this one. Can I articulate the difference? Probably not. But it would be hard to assert &quot;other stuff exists&quot; about this; the &quot;the&quot; should be universally present or universally omitted for NYMA. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Edited 23:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::Although this is a minor point, the school itself uses 'the' when referring to itself using its full name, but omits the 'the' when using the acronym NYMA. Sources &gt; Wikipedia imo. See: https://www.nyma.org [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 23:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::{{tq|any discussion of guidelines and other factors should occur there, not here.}} Anyway, this article does not currently use the NYMA acronym. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 23:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::Not true. The school also doesn't use &quot;the&quot; when referring to itself by the full name, e.g., [https://www.nyma.org/ NYMA website], &quot;Leadership training&quot; section: &quot;The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop our cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;; [https://www.nyma.org/about/ NYMA website/about]: &quot;New York Military Academy (NYMA) was founded by Colonel Charles Jefferson Wright&quot;, &quot;The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 12:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Would anyone really expect a 13-year-old to have entered any school of their own volition? My opinion was neither sought nor desired when it came time for me to begin high school. I just can't see anyone interpreting the longstanding version the way you are worried about. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 16:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC) ::The classmate he borrowed the medals from did, according to Buettner/Craig. I did, too, come to think of it (at 15, and not military school, though:). [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC) :::Are you extrapolating overall reader behavior from a sample size of 2? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::Yes! I'm considering a career change — Rasmussen pollster. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :Where is the DUE case for &quot;his father sent him to&quot;? How much RS has discussed this issue? Key word: ''discussed,'' which does not mean merely saying that his father sent him. To the author of the source, that could be an arbitrary alternative to &quot;he entered&quot;, a matter of writing style. Beware of [[WP:OR]] and avoid reading between the lines in sources.{{pb}}I don't think two or three good sources would do it for me. Even ignoring the article bloat. Maybe four good sources. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::How about removing kindergarten and just mentioning that he attended school X through grade 7 and school Y from grade 8 to 12? Current version: :::{{tq2|He grew up with older siblings [[Maryanne Trump Barry|Maryanne]], [[Fred Trump Jr.|Fred Jr.]], and Elizabeth and younger brother [[Robert Trump|Robert]] in the [[Jamaica Estates, Queens|Jamaica Estates]] neighborhood of Queens, and attended the private [[Kew-Forest School]] from kindergarten through seventh grade.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA33 33]}}&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|last1=Schwartzman|first1=Paul|last2=Miller|first2=Michael E.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html|title=Confident. Incorrigible. Bully: Little Donny was a lot like candidate Donald Trump|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 22, 2016|access-date=June 2, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/us/politics/donald-trumps-old-queens-neighborhood-now-a-melting-pot-was-seen-as-a-cloister.html|title=Donald Trump's Old Queens Neighborhood Contrasts With the Diverse Area Around It|first=Jason|last=Horowitz|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=September 22, 2015|access-date=November 7, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; At age 13, he entered the [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA38 38]}}}} ::Proposed version: :::{{tq2|He grew up with older siblings [[Maryanne Trump Barry|Maryanne]], [[Fred Trump Jr.|Fred Jr.]], and Elizabeth and younger brother [[Robert Trump|Robert]] in the [[Jamaica Estates, Queens|Jamaica Estates]] neighborhood of Queens.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/us/politics/donald-trumps-old-queens-neighborhood-now-a-melting-pot-was-seen-as-a-cloister.html|title=Donald Trump's Old Queens Neighborhood Contrasts With the Diverse Area Around It|first=Jason|last=Horowitz|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=September 22, 2015|access-date=November 7, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; He attended the private [[Kew-Forest School]] through seventh grade{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA33 33]}}&lt;ref name=&quot;bully&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Schwartzman|first1=Paul|last2=Miller|first2=Michael E.|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html|title=Confident. Incorrigible. Bully: Little Donny was a lot like candidate Donald Trump|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=June 22, 2016|access-date=June 2, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; and [[New York Military Academy]], a private boarding school, from eighth through twelfth grade.{{sfn|Kranish|Fisher|2017|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=x2jUDQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA38 38]}}&lt;ref name=&quot;bully&quot;/&gt;}} ::This may be my bias talking, but &quot;entered the New York Military Academy&quot; has just a whiff of achievement, such as being admitted to [[United States Military Academy|West Point]]. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::I can't detect any such sense of achievement. Entering a school seems to me to be completely equvalent to &quot;began attending&quot;. I also don't see it as distinguishing the manner of entry (personal choice, parental choice, or simply iving in the district).--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 16:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC) :::Sorry, but [[WP:NOR|your interpretation is irrelevant here]], {{tq|bias talking}} or otherwise. You are going beyond &quot;editorial judgment&quot; in my opinion. Show me the requested DUE case if you want my support. At this moment, I'd be happy with merely removing the &quot;the&quot; per above. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC) ::::For at least seven years, the sentence read (bolding added by me): {{tq|'''At age 13, he was enrolled''' at the New York Military Academy, a private boarding school,[6] and in 1964, '''he enrolled''' at Fordham University.}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1213766421 This edit] on March 15, 2024, changed it with the editsum &quot;ce&quot;. IMO, it changed the meaning. I didn’t notice it among all the other edits at the time. I only noticed it now because I’m reading Buettner/Craig’s &quot;Lucky Loser&quot;. OR? Sure, if reading RS and forming an opinion is the definition of OR. It’s a tad annoying when every source I found says &quot;he was sent&quot; or similar wording, and there doesn’t seem to be a single source for &quot;he entered&quot; (annoying enough for me to take my mind off next Tuesday and spend half an hour tracking the sentence on the Wayback Machine{{Oldsmiley|roll}}). ::::*[https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html Kranish/Fisher]: &quot;When Donald was 13, his father abruptly sent him to a military boarding school, where instructors struck him if he misbehaved and the requirements included daily inspections and strict curfews. 'He was essentially banished from the family home,' said his biographer, Michael D’Antonio.&quot; ::::*Buettner/Craig, pg. 63: &quot;But Fred had reached his limit with Donald. He sent him to a boarding school, a military academy north of the city.&quot; ::::*[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/classroom/daily-news-lessons/2016/07/donald-trumps-early-years-from-trouble-making-teen-to-military-school-star PBD]: &quot;His family eventually sent him to military school in upstate New York&quot;. ::::*[https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/09/us/politics/donald-trump-likens-his-schooling-to-military-service-in-book.html NYT]: &quot;Mr. Trump said his experience at the New York Military Academy, an expensive prep school where his parents had sent him to correct poor behavior, gave him 'more training militarily than a lot of the guys that go into the military'.&quot; ::::*[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/grab-that-record-how-trumps-high-school-transcript-was-hidden/2019/03/05/8815b7b8-3c61-11e9-aaae-69364b2ed137_story.html WaPo]: &quot;Trump spent five years at the military academy, starting in the fall of 1959, after his father — having concluded that his son, then in the seventh grade, needed a more discipline-focused setting — removed him from his Queens private school and sent him Upstate to NYMA.&quot; [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{tq|OR? Sure, if reading RS and forming an opinion is the definition of OR.}} 'Twas OR ''before'' you presented this DUE case. Now it isn't. [[In-joke|I must be from Missouri]]. Ok, you have my support for &quot;his father sent him to&quot;. And remove that damned &quot;the&quot; in the prose, per above, pending a change at [[New York Military Academy]]. Please and thank you. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC) Making sure this isn't archived — someone started another discussion (Inclusion of release of grades). [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:02, 11 November 2024 (UTC) {{sources-talk}} == Please re-write the entire first section. == I have read more than 10,000 biographical articles in Wikipedia, and I haven't seen a single article which is written in a more biased, and pessimistic tone than [[Donald Trump]]. Please be professional and at least re-write the entire first section again in a more neutral tone. The entire world is reading this article and it must be written professionally. Thank you. [[User:Nir007H|Nir007H]] ([[User talk:Nir007H|talk]]) 10:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I agree. Its important to mention these things, but the bias on both this page and the election page as well as his campaign page, is widespread. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 10:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :How? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::Because all of them have paragraphs upon paragraphs regarding many '''allegations''', many of which Trump himself has denied. They also excessively refer him to [[Fascism]], and provide far-left and often non-reliable sources for these. Kamala Harris and Joe Biden have their fair bit of criticism, but this is rarely mentioned on their pages and when it is, its usually reverted or downplayed due to 'non reliable sourcing'. Keeping in mind Fox and the like should be considered as reliable as CNN and the like. Its overall quite biased. Dont get me wrong, these things need to be mentioned, but their absolutely has to be more weighting as to criticism of Trump and his Democrat opponents. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 10:28, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::Also to quickly add to this, it needs to be mentioned more that '''Trump has denied [[Project 2025]]'''. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 10:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::See [[WP:MANDY]]. The sources are what we go with, not Trump's own claims. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 10:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Left sources that go against what the topic at hand himself said? Wikipedia can be interesting sometimes. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 11:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Again, [[WP:MANDY]] and [[WP:PRIMARY]] are why we prioritise independent sources. — '''[[User:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;Czello&lt;/i&gt;]]''' &lt;sup&gt;''([[User talk:Czello|&lt;i style=&quot;color:#8000FF&quot;&gt;music&lt;/i&gt;]])''&lt;/sup&gt; 13:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Completely agree with these criticisms of the article. Please see my added topic which includes three edit requests, for some proposed changes to the opening section. [[User:Neutral Editor 645|Neutral Editor 645]] ([[User talk:Neutral Editor 645|talk]]) 10:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I think that based on current consensus number 61, that you should review this link: [[Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias]]. (Not 100% sure though, so I will leave this thread open.) --[[User:Super Goku V|Super Goku V]] ([[User talk:Super Goku V|talk]]) 10:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Yeah. I hate Trump and am sad that he won, but this lead is just too much. It discredits Wikipedia's encyclopedic tone for the regular user. At least add a few positive things. [[User:Lucafrehley|Lucafrehley]] ([[User talk:Lucafrehley|talk]]) 10:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::Find some. We can't include things that don't exist.--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 11:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::Jesus you are literally a wikipedia editor. Your bias is what we do not need on wikipedia. :::For example we could add things like: :::The First Step Act, signed in 2018, aimed to reform the federal prison system by reducing sentences for non-violent offenders, increasing funding for rehabilitation programs, and reducing the three-strike rule’s penalty. :::the VA MISSION Act, allowing veterans more access to private healthcare and aimed at improving the VA's efficiency and accountability. :::Operation Warp Speed facilitated the rapid development, manufacturing, and distribution of COVID-19 vaccines, which reached the public in record time. :::just to name a few [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 11:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::As I pointed out in my own topic, this is not about adding &quot;positive things&quot;. Trump won an election in 2016 which was widely reported from reliable sources as a complete surprise. Those reliable sources tried to understand why people voted for him. The lead has no direct mention of why he won. While having mention of Russian interference and protests. :::This has nothing to do with things being positive or negative, there is a lack of social analysis that doesn't help to present a complex BLP. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 15:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I agree. I have never seen an article of this scale be so obviously biased and favored against its subject. This bias becomes even more distinguishable when you compare it to other articles such as [[Joe Biden]], who has been heavily criticized even by people on the left. For example, he faced a ton of criticism for the [[2020–2021 U.S. troop withdrawal from Afghanistan|withdrawal from Afganistan]] ([https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/afghanistan-joe-biden-donald-trump-kabul-politics/index.html CNN], [https://www.msnbc.com/the-week/watch/pres-biden-faces-criticism-for-afghanistan-withdrawal-119203397970 MSNBC], [https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/biden-s-afghanistan-withdrawal-speech-missed-something-important-n1276918 MSNBC again], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/afghanistan-withdrawal-republicans-house-report-biden-white-house/ CBS], [https://www.npr.org/2024/09/08/nx-s1-5105345/afghanistan-withdrawal-congress-report-trump-biden-harris, NPR], [https://apnews.com/article/house-republicans-afghanistan-withdrawal-kabul-abbey-gate-cdf9578d3fef6201ee44fafb5f5d5acd Associative Press], [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/us/politics/afghanistan-withdrawal-congress.html NYT], etc), yet that is nowhere to be found in the lead. Meanwhile, Trump's lead section will mention every bad thing he did, as well as the opinions of his non-supporters. The opinions of those who support him are not even mentioned. It just comes across as completely lacking integrity. ([[User talk:Not0nshoree|Discuss]] [[User:Not0nshoree|'''''0nshore's''''']] [[Special:contributions/Not0nshoree|contributions!!!]]) 17:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::I would not define it as &quot;biased&quot;, those info could be considered notable. But it is surelly tone deaf in trying to give social context to Trump success. Poor writing that actually doesn't even give a change to complex social criticism, for which there are many reliable reportings even from the same major US newspapers used in the current &quot;fact checked&quot; style. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 18:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Nobody rewrites entire first sections (leads). That isn't how Wikipedia works, and Trump would be dead long before we reached a consensus on such a rewrite. See [[Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::yea, I agree on that, a substantial rewrite is not happening soon. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 18:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :This entire article needs re-written, but the introduction is a total disaster. Even aside from the partisan hackery, it is a hodgepodge of incoherent sentences that look like (and probably were) added disjointedly as time went on with little to no continuity with each other. Most of them are factoids that are irrelevant to a high altitude summary of the man's life and achievements. Embarrassing. [[User:The Pittsburgher|The Pittsburgher]] ([[User talk:The Pittsburgher|talk]]) 15:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :Specific suggestions, please. It's nigh impossible to rewrite an entire lead section to everyone's liking. Simple saying 'rewrite the entire lead' isn't going to get us anywhere. [[User:Cessaune|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#f70a90&quot;&gt;Cessaune&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Cessaune|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000&quot;&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt;talk&lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/span&gt;''']] 15:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :The idea that a mythical &quot;unbiased&quot; lead section could exist that literally every Wikipedia would agree upon for such a polarizing political figure is absurd and preposterous. People act like shouting &quot;bias&quot;! is some kind of objective statement when it is essentially entirely subjective opinion. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 03:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :{{ping|Nir007H}} There's only one way to get a re-write. You gotta put forward a proposal &amp; see if it will get a consensus. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 03:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :I may be drawn and quartered for speaking this heresy. I've long felt Wikipedia content policies are sufficiently vague, complex, nuanced, and self-contradictory as to be extremely vulnerable to the biases that we all have (anybody who claims to be without bias is either lying or completely lacking in self-awareness). That the policies prevent the effects of those biases is largely an illusion and a mass self-delusion. I've advocated massive overhaul of policy to simplify and streamline, and the silence has been deafening. Wikipedia's system of self-selected self-governance simply lacks the capacity for such massive change, and the [[WP:Wikimedia Foundation|Wikimedia Foundation]] will never intervene while Wikipedia is the most popular free encyclopedia on the web.{{pb}}If this article has been dominated by anti-Trump editors, the solution is more pro-Trump editors, people who are prepared to take the time to learn the policies and how to use them. [[WP:CONSENSUS]] is ''everything'' at Wikipedia. I've been saying this for many years and it seems to me a large majority of pro-Trumpers lack the energy for anything but arm-waving rants about fake news and the resulting fake &lt;del&gt;encyclopedia&lt;/del&gt; &lt;ins&gt;encyclopedia (a lazy intellectual cop-out)&lt;/ins&gt;&amp;mdash;merely following their leader's example. I say quit &lt;del&gt;whining&lt;/del&gt; &lt;ins&gt;whining, put on your big boy pants,&lt;/ins&gt; and do something that might have some effect. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC) Edited after replies 23:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{tq| &quot;It seems to me a large majority of pro-Trumpers lack the energy for anything but arm-waving rants about fake news and the resulting fake encyclopedia—merely following their leader's example.&quot;}} An astute observation that actually reveals the root of the problem: That's all they do because that's all there is to back up their POV. The lead is a dry restatement of dull facts, it only appears unflattering because the man's behavior has been consistently and objectively unflattering. [[User:Largely Legible Layman|Largely Legible Layman]] ([[User talk:Largely Legible Layman|talk]]) 16:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::I’d say it’s more to do with the polarisation of the American media, and one end/side being deprecated on Wikipedia. [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 16:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :'''Comment''' I generally stay far away from Trump related articles because of my extremely strong prejudices against the man. But as much as it pains me to say this, I think the lead is problematic. It reads like it was written by the DNC. Most of what is in there belongs in the article. But not all of it belongs in the lead. Clearly I'm not the only one with these concerns as there are multiple editors, in multiple threads on this page raising similar concerns. If the article wasn't linked on the main page right now, I'd seriously consider slapping an NPOV tag on it. Tone matters. The lead reads like an indictment. The laundry list of everything the man has ever been accused of is UNDUE and should be condensed into more general statement noting his controversial history, statements, legal issues etc. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 05:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::the problem is not the list of &quot;negative&quot; actions, which could maybe be condensed just to achieve a better lenght, the problem is that the lead completelly fails to convey why Trump is popular, how he got to power etc etc. It sounds tone deaf and devoided of social analysis. Look at the Hitler lead (not a comparison between individuals) and you can see how it can be done properly. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::I think that's a very good analysis. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 15:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I suspect that the lead as it is in part resulted from having too many cooks in the kitchen. Is there one person who can draft a lead for Trump based on the structure of Hitler's lead for others to review? &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The current structure seems decent to me for the time being, @[[User:Goszei|Goszei]] is [[Talk:Donald Trump#c-Goszei-20241107220400-Muboshgu-20241107215600|pointing out]] a good and clear path forward regarding content that should be added. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 21:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::It’d be so good if this article were actually educational [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 21:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Agree that this is the best step forward. [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 16:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :Support [[User:Castlemore7|Castlemore7]] ([[User talk:Castlemore7|talk]]) 14:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :I can imagine you counting the biographical articles you read like pushups &quot;9,998..9,999...10,000! Now I can finally say I have read 10,000 of those! [[Special:Contributions/68.57.163.100|68.57.163.100]] ([[User talk:68.57.163.100|talk]]) 04:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC) == lead is too long == lead is too long as it contains more than 4 para. Can we make it short ? [[User:Astropulse|Astropulse]] ([[User talk:Astropulse|talk]]) 14:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :this is by editorial design. the reality is that when everything is important, nothing is important. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 14:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::there are lot of other presidents and prominent article - where we have managed to put most important things in 4 para. 4 para is more than enough and everything else should be in body [[User:Astropulse|Astropulse]] ([[User talk:Astropulse|talk]]) 14:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::if you've a suggestion for something to cut then do so. waving arms and saying 'its too long, make it shorter' is a useless comment. [[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] ([[User talk:ValarianB|talk]]) 14:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I cut the last para. someone reverted it. Lets start by removing it [[User:Astropulse|Astropulse]] ([[User talk:Astropulse|talk]]) 15:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Why that? Why remove that he has won the election and is president elect? How does that accomplish anything? [[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] Reporting a problem and discussing it on the talk page is far from &quot;useless&quot;. Please [[WP:Assume good faith]]. If you want another editor to elaborate, a question could be asked without dismissing their contribution as useless. For example, &quot;if you've a suggestion for something to cut then do so. Which part(s) of the lead in particular do you think should be trimmed?&quot; That would be a more constructive rather than dismissive contribution. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Valarian did not say that discussing the problem is &quot;useless&quot;. They said that not being specific is &quot;useless&quot;. This lead clearly needs to be cut severely, and we need specific proposals for how to do it. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::You agree that the lead is too long. So saying 'its too long, make it shorter' was a correct analysis of the situation and the start of a discussion, not a &quot;useless&quot; comment. Other editors were actively adding to the bloated lead instead of doing what Astropulse did and attempting to discuss the problem on the talk page. Again, if another editor wants an editor to elaborate, that can be requested in a constructive rather than dismissive way. Calling other editors' comments &quot;useless&quot; without reason is not [[WP:Civil]]. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 22:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :I agree the lead is overly long. Already 7 paragraphs and he hasn't even been inaugurated for his second term yet. Checking other US presidents' articles, they generally have 4, at a push 5, paragraphs. Overloading the lead for Trump's article is an example of [[WP:Recentism]]. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 15:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :I have attempted a bold restructuring of the lead, including some additions and removals of information, in these edits: [[Special:Diff/1255792425/1255793186]]. I understand that some elements of it may conflict with prior consensus, but as editors point out above this lead is a severe example of recentism. A lot more material is sure to come with his second term in office, which will expand the lead even further, so we should try to cut it down along the general lines of my edit. What do other editors think? — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 18:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Yes, the lead is disgracefully bloated. Compare it to our article for [[Joe Biden]], which has a neat and concise lead of four paragraphs. What makes Trump any different? [[WP:Summary style]] seems to have been chucked out the window. ~ [[User:HAL333|&lt;span style=&quot;background:red; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid red;&quot;&gt;'''HAL'''&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:HAL333|&lt;span style=&quot;background:navy; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid red;&quot;&gt;'''333'''&lt;/span&gt;]] '''(VOTE!)''' 18:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::With you on summary style, and you're far from the first person to say that (although usually applied to the body). Stick around and help make it so! &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::It feels already much better than before. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 22:31, 6 November 2024 (UTC) It seems an attempt was made to shorten the lead and the template was removed, then the content was restored to bloat the lead again but the template was not restored. The documentation of [[Template:Lead too long]] speaks of a 250 to 400 word standard. The lead section of this article is currently over 650 words! Trying to fix the problem of too many paragraphs by combining the excess paragraphs into gigantic paragraphs doesn't address the issue. Trump still hasn't even been inaugurated for his second term but the lead is substantially longer than other presidents. By my count, Trump's lead currently contains almost 1,000 more characters than FDR's lead, a man who was in office for 12 YEARS and is one of the most influential presidents in American history! This is purely recentism, we need to apply the [[WP:20YEARTEST]]. *For a start, the lead mentions &quot;After a series of business failures in the late 1990s ... He and his [...] six business bankruptcies.&quot; Are these separate events, or were some the bankruptcies during the 1990s? Couldn't these lines be combined in some way? [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 23:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :There are two sentences in the lead in particular which are not &quot;protected&quot; by standing consensus, and which editors have expressed an interest in cutting in various threads on this talk page: :*&quot;He and his businesses have been involved in more than 4,000 legal actions, including six business bankruptcies.&quot; :*&quot;The Mueller investigation later determined that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help Trump.&quot; :There is also room for trimming in other areas (why say &quot;racially charged&quot; when it is just a soft euphemism for &quot;racist&quot;, for instance), though I have seen some editors reverting these efforts for unknown reasons. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 00:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::I agree that those two are the two phrases that feels most out of place on lead. But to remove them there is surelly a need for two separates RfC. I also have a feeling the Russian interference will be preserved by an RfC, but it is interesting to see motivations for it. I guess that for american politics that is a major fact. ::I also agree on the racist part. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::To be even more clear, I find the paragraph about his presidency (4th) and about his trials and attempt to overturn (5th) satysfying. :::The issues are on second paragraph (not making a clear connection between his business empire and his shift to politic, or a misleading connection with his business legal actions) and on third paragraph (being extremelly vague and indirect to why he won) [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::Agreed. The lead's scope in general still hasn't adjusted to the election results. ::Consensus on this talk page seems to be that he was a failed, nepotistic businessman turned reality TV host, who won the 2016 election by fluke and Russian hacking. Then he became a failed insurrectionist in 2020 and found guilty of various crimes, generally an unelectable madman. Whether that's a right or wrong summary, the lead should adjust to the new development that he was elected for a second term as president. Most prior events become less leadworthy in the face of this expanding scope. ::@[[User:Goszei|Goszei]] Has there been a specific reason in edit summaries as to why we need repetition of the business failures in the second paragraph? [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 11:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == “First convicted felon as president” placement. == The Felony thing in like the opening sentence or second sentence I think is excessive, where it was before was next to the stuff about Stormy Daniel’s/Insirrection/etc. that is more logical, but someone reverted it and added it back to the first part. It’s one of those things where we gotta figure out how to level the weight, there’s a whole part in the lead right now addressing all the stuff so I think that’s fine but I would like to hear some unbiased consensus. [[User:Eg224|Eg224]] ([[User talk:Eg224|talk]]) 22:00, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :Editors can argue DUE or UNDUE all day long, but the policy is sufficiently vague that, in reality, it comes down to how much one hates/loves Trump and how much they let that affect their Wikipedia editing. I hate Trump immensely (making me just a ''terrible'' person, probably possessed by demons) but I don't let it affect my editing. And this just feels like POV-pushing that high in the lead. I'm happy with it where it is at this moment, in what is currently the fourth paragraph of the lead. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC) ::Yeah, I think it’s perfect. definitely feels biased to have it in the opening, the first president without prior experience isn’t as much so. I think that’s alright since it compares him to past Presidents in the next part too, and is talking about being the 45th/47th president [[User:Eg224|Eg224]] ([[User talk:Eg224|talk]]) 22:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC) :::I believe you are making a mistake. He can not be labeled a &quot;convicted felon&quot; as long as his appeals processes are unconcluded. The fact that courts have granted the appeals indicates that they believe he has a chance of having the rulings reversed. [[Special:Contributions/99.33.126.209|99.33.126.209]] ([[User talk:99.33.126.209|talk]]) 05:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I believe you are mistaken. [[WP:BLPCRIME]]: &quot;A living person accused of a crime is [[presumption of innocence|presumed innocent]] until convicted by a court of law.&quot; '''NOT:''' &quot;A living person accused of a crime is [[presumption of innocence|presumed innocent]] until convicted by a court of law and all available appeals have been exhausted.&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Look, the facts are that Trumpty-Dumpty being convicted on felony counts will never be as important as his presidencies. His political career will be the most important thing to impart, not the tax evasion or fraud or whatever the hell it was NY prosecuted him for. Not to say that it isn't important enough to be mentioned in like the fourth paragraph, but his political career is the most important thing to note. Hate to get all [[Orwell]] on ya'll, but [[some animals are more equal than others]]. &lt;span style=&quot;background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;&quot;&gt;[[User:BarntToust|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7b68ee;&quot;&gt;Barnt&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:BarntToust|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#483d8b;&quot;&gt;Toust&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::A person becomes a convicted felon the instant the conviction is handed down. Sentencing does not matter. Appeals do not matter. The only criterion for &quot;convicted&quot; is the conviction itself. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 15:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC) The weight and emphasis given to facts in the lede should reflect that given in the body. Given the weighting currently seen in the body, a high placement is appropriate. If editors want to move it down, they should contest the weighting given in the body. That is the place to evaluate DUE/UNDUE. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :Thought experiment, not an actual proposal: (1) Go through the lead and make a list of the discrete topics therein. (2) Find the related body content for each item and count the words therein (i.e., weight), updating your list with those numbers. (3) Sort the list by descending word count. (4) Restructure the lead according to your sorted list.{{pb}}I think you'll find that your new lead lacks all structure and organization. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::It's true that the lede serves functions beyond being a weighted summary (e.g. contextualizing the subject, establishing notability) which gives it some structure and organization. I did intend to sidestep the wordcount weighting critique by mentioning emphasis, e.g. whether a topic is given its own heading, how high in the article/section it is, whether it is a summary or example as well as just the importance the article ascribes. ::On my broader point, what do you understand as the relationship between the lede and body re; [[WP:DUE]]? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::I don't. Frankly I think you're putting too fine a point on it, considering all the other issues going unaddressed, such as article length. We've been discussing that for years without significant progress. We need to get the body into summary style, gutting much of it, and we need more smart guys like you to help with that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:03, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Agreed that length is a very big issue. I also think if editors want to focus on other issues, such as emphasis, they should do it in a different way. ::::I'm working on [[Public image of Donald Trump]] at the moment before summarizing it in this article, I'll be interested to see how that goes before taking on a meatier section. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC) == 54. &quot;Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history.&quot; == A brief consideration: The sentence should clarify who these &quot;historians and scholars&quot; are by identifying the institution that represents them collectively or at least their nationality, per [[WP:WIKIVOICE]], [[WP:GLOBALIZE]], and [[WP:GLOBAL]]. We might also consider adding a footnote to mention the historians... Additionally, the sentence should also specify that this is an assessment of the [[First presidency of Donald Trump|first presidency]], rather than the incoming one, per [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]]. [[User:Pantarch|Pantarch]] ([[User talk:Pantarch|talk]]) 11:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :This is discussed in the body of the article along with links to additional info. Too much detail for the lead. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 11:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::Better to have many details than inaccurate ones. The sentence make an absolute claim, which is inconsistent with Wikipedia's policies. Whereas, regarding my other point, specifying 'first presidency' requires only two words. [[User:Pantarch|Pantarch]] ([[User talk:Pantarch|talk]]) 12:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::I disagree. Trump is in a bit of a unique situation (two non-consecutive terms in a period that is contemporary with Wikipedia). I think this sentence in the lede should be rewritten to clarify that the surveys and assessments so far so far were purely based on his first term as president. That of course can be changed again when there's a new ranking that explicitly considers his second term. ::Compare also to the [[Joe Biden]] article, where it has been generally considered too early to include the survey rankings until the end of his presidency. I don't think leaving them out here completely is the right way to handle it, but at the very least that part of the lede needs clarification. ::If that would be too much detail, I would even argue to remove it from the lede altogether for now until the end of his second term instead of keeping the current wording. [[Special:Contributions/2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B|2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B]] ([[User talk:2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B|talk]]) 18:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::I agree this is an uncited comment and should be removed , but since it is under strict protection that can not be done by anyone outside of a very small group, so it will remain until someone with this ability decides to do it. [[User:Washusama|Washusama]] ([[User talk:Washusama|talk]]) 06:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If we're removing &quot;uncited comments&quot; from the lead, we're deleting the lead. We cite in the body and summarize the body in the lead. See [[Donald Trump#Scholarly]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:02, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::When his second term starts we can change it to specify that it was his first term being evaluated. Until then, it is blatantly obvious due to the fact that it is the only term he has had. Your assumption that readers are too stupid to understand this is insulting. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 15:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{tq|we can change it}} Am I missing something, or is &quot;'''After his first term,''' scholars and historians ranked Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history.&quot; sufficiently clear on that point? The first four words were just added the other day, after a discussion which is linked in [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 54, per established process. How could the assessments apply to his second term if they were made after his first term? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:08, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I just think this sentence should just be removed entirely. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) &lt;!--Template:Undated--&gt;&lt;small class=&quot;autosigned&quot;&gt;—&amp;nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 07:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; &lt;!--Autosigned by SineBot--&gt; ::[[Wikipedia:I just don't like it]] applies. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::I just do not think a bunch of biased historians claiming something way too early is that important or too good for a Wikipedia article. I don't even think opinions should be in the lead to begin with. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) 09:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Everyone is biased, there's no such thing as an &quot;unbiased&quot; person. You are free to review the statement and source/sources provided and say &quot;they're a bunch of left wing partisan hacks and I don't believe them&quot;. That doesn't mean the views of people who study history and review historical evidence shouldn't be here. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{bcc|331dot}}I don't think this aligns with Wikipedia's [[WP:PAGS|policies and guidelines]]. [[WP:Reliable sources]] does draw a distinction between [[WP:BIASED|biased and non-biased sources]], and [[WP:SOURCE|Wikipedia:Verifiability]] includes types of creators (such as political scientists) as a [[WP:SOURCE|type of source]]. With biased sources, certain considerations must be made. This all said, the bias, and potentially its impacts, must be verifiable rather than simply asserted. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 09:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I have no problem with biases and opinions being in Wikipedia pages. They are in Wikipedia pages all the time. From reviews of various media to even awards given to people. I only have a problem when they are in the lead and given authority. Like how it is on this article right now. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) 17:00, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::: I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;given authority&quot;, but these are scholarly assessments in very reliable sources, and they carry with them whatever authority that implies. It's a significant fact about him that belongs in the lead. Only someone who is ignorant of his character and actions and believes the whitewashing from unreliable sources would doubt these scholarly assessments. The statement is accurate and properly attributed. It's okay. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) (PING me) ::::::: Those are your opinions. [[User:Master106|Master106]] ([[User talk:Master106|talk]]) 17:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC) == Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead == It is natural that a large-scale real estate developer in the industry for decades would face a high number of lawsuits. It is worth mentioning in the body, but not worth mentioning in the lead. In the lead, the apparent purpose of this sentence is to portray Trump as a bad businessman, despite him becoming a billionaire and acquiring some of the most iconic properties in NYC. We already mention his &quot;business failures&quot; in the 1990s and shift to side ventures; I recommend removing the sentence on lawsuits, and then changing &quot;business failures&quot; to &quot;bankruptcies&quot; to be more clear. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :Source for any other land developer who has faced this number, and kind of lawsuit please? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::Looking into it, according to [https://www.usatoday.com/pages/interactives/trump-lawsuits/] close to half of the 4,000 suits were related to his casino, most of which were &quot;suits against gamblers who had credit at Trump-connected casinos and failed to pay their debts&quot;. Trump was the plaintiff in these (not the defendant), and won most of them according to the data. Another big chunk, larger than those related to his real estate, was personal injury, which is again expected when running a large number of commercial properties. He had about 600 real estate suits over a period of 40 years. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::Not what I asked, and does not support what you said. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :His involvement in litigation is a key part of Trump's biography. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::From what I posted above, a lot of the suits just seem like the cost of doing business in a litigious industry for 40 years; our article on it, [[Personal and business legal affairs of Donald Trump]], acknowledges that Trump won 92% of the suits. We have a lot in the lead about his later legal problems, but we shouldn't generalize that backwards to his business career. He was much better known for his Atlantic City casino bankruptcies than something like Trump University before 2015. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::Before 2015, Trump wasn't publicly known as &quot;that guy who got sued a lot&quot;, but as a fairly successful real estate developer who faced high-profile bankruptcies and later built a brand around his name. This is what we should convey to the reader. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 18:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::I completelly agree with Goszei here, it's a repetition that is misleading, unnecessary, and, even more important, take up space that could be used to describe how his real estate work connects to his rise to power. Goszei explained it to me in another discussion and is not conveyed properly in the current lead. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 18:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::But his dishonesty also helps explain his rise to power. Again we need sources saying this is not unusual, not editors OR. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 18:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::::You interpreting that sentence as &quot;Trump gained his wealth through dishonesty&quot; is complete POV and exactly what I am referring to when I said the figure alone misleads readers. As I showed above, the reality is more complex (the vast majority of the suits weren't related to any kind of fraud on Trump's part, and he won 92% of them). — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 19:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Agreed. That should definitely go. The whole business part of the lead is full of useless trivia. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 22:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::We have a whole page on it: [[Business career of Donald Trump]]. It is only appropriate for it to be at least a sentence in the lead of his bio. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 22:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::We should include details on his business career insofar as it explains to readers how Trump became rich (&quot;building and renovating skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses&quot;) and became a household name (licensing his name and hosting ''The Apprentice''), which are directly relevant to his rise to political power. Mentioning the number of lawsuits he had is not relevant to this purpose. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Agree this sentence in the lead should be removed. [[User:Basil the Bat Lord|Basil the Bat Lord]] ([[User talk:Basil the Bat Lord|talk]]) 05:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::When I talk about an edit, I am implying by default it coming from RS. :::::I just think that the connection between him building businnes in NY and his rise to power should be made more explicit, in the case that it is supported by RS. Just talking about golf courses and hotel doesn't make it clear enough. And the number of lawsuits further make it more misleading because it seems like he went to politics because he was poor and failing. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}} Hadn't noticed this discussion — two days after the election, all hell breaking loose in the article and on this talk page. Trump's business failures, including the bankruptcies, are a defining part of his biography and lead-worthy. Since you mentioned casinos and gamblers: it's not a sign of great business acumen when you build a casino next door to your own casino and poach patrons from yourself or when you give credit to patrons so that they gamble with our own money. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tq|when you give credit to patrons so that they gamble with our own money}}. This is established practice in the gambling industry, anyone who has tried to watch a sporting event recently has been bombarded with 'free bet' ads. The calculation being that most people are losers and getting them in the door is more valuable to the casino/sportsbook than the value of the credit/'free bet'. Regardless, declaring a casino or other business bankrupt isn't that relevant to the article that it should have multiple lines in the lead of an article about a two-term president. We can surely summarise that business failure/bankruptcies content in one line. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 11:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :To the uninitiated reader, this sentence suggests that Trump by the time of his first presidential run was a failed businessman who was absolutely drowning in lawsuits. However, a good chunk of Trump's popularity in 2016 came from the widespread view that he was a successful real estate mogul, and an icon of the &quot;glory days&quot; of American capitalism in the 1980s. The truth of course is more nuanced (we have many, many words in the article on questions about his true net worth, for example), and I understand the impulse to hint that his business career wasn't as spotless as people perceived, but this specific fact just misleads the reader. We don't even mention his billionaire status in the lead, or have a few words about his changing political affiliations, both of which are far more relevant to understanding his &quot;pitch&quot; to the American public and rise. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 03:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::Again, Goszei is right. The current formulation is misleading. It is also inderectly suggesting that Trump went to politics because he was failing in business. All of this crucially misses the points of his political rise. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::I had not read the current new version of the lead, I did now. It is very good on its shortening on the informations and critiques. I wouldn't cut out anything else at this point. :::But it is still missing any kind of information (both contextual and direct) about how and why Trump became popular as a politician. They can all find their place on the second paragraph, a couple of sentences could be enough. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::For exemple, it's a shame that those two diffs [[Https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&amp;oldid=1257901326|two]] [[Https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&amp;oldid=1257905963|diffs]] from Goszei didn't stand. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:28, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Trump wasn't a billionaire in the 80s, the article doesn't make that claim, and, if there are any reliable sources for the claim, Goszei should have added the material and the sources to the body. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Interesting, thank you for replying. I have actually took the time to read the body and more in [[Wealth of Donald Trump]]. It basically looks like he lied in tax returns to downplay his worth, and boosting his net worth to the public to increase his popularity. Before the 2016 election, there are multiple sources that estimate him at around 2-3 billions. It's a complex dinamic of debt and wealth that could be wrote out better in the lead, especially if it relates to his political rise. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::This is a fair point. The lead has changed a lot (in a positive direction) over the last few days, and I think I am satisfied with just mentioning that Trump &quot;focused on luxury accommodation&quot; (shortened from the previous list of &quot;skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses&quot;) because it gets across the personal brand of wealth and luxury that he was well-known for, without treading into the contentious territory about his net worth. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 19:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Personally I do not think that the second paragraph is satysfying as is regarding his business aspect. There is something missing to outline how the business relates to his political career. Your latest additions are spot on. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I mean the connection is there, luxury (mainly in NY?) and a succesfull tv show. But I actually don't know if that's what made him able to launch his campaign, also why the idea of even trying it arose. I hoped to find some analysis of it that at least could lead to a sentence that explains the connection, but maybe there isn't. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 20:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ===Broader critique of the lead and article=== To be honest, I believe content like this in this lead, as well as a continued focus on it within the article, represents us sticking our heads in the sand as editors. We are now far beyond the 2016 election, when points like this were used to attack Trump by his political opponents, and have entered a stage where he is bringing about a generational re-alignment in American politics. This lead, this article, and this encyclopedia should seek to clearly explain ''why'' Trump appealed to the electorate in 2016 and why he continues to do so, and explain the roots of his movement, which has only grown over the last 8 years. In many places, we miss the forest for the trees: as many political scientists and historians have concluded, Trump won not because he was racist and his voters were too, but because his message exploited an absence within the political establishment of anyone speaking to the interests of the population. We need to weave his ascendancy together with the facts of 40 years of stagnant wages, the financial crash of 2008, the abandonment of the Rust Belt, and the declining living standards of the working class. I write a lot of this up to [[WP:RECENTISM]], but now that he was elected a second time, it is clear that he isn't an aberration but a key figure in U.S. history, and our encyclopedia should reflect this. Perhaps I am asking too much for the nature of this project, but I think this is important, and hope this article improves along these lines in the years of chaos to come. Rant over. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) :That clarifies this for me. We are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and we are not (despite what some believe) his political opponents. We are taking a holistic view of Trump's life and career. He received significant coverage going back to the 1970s. We don't stop talking about past events just because of [[WP:RECENTISM]]. That includes his lawsuits and business failures, as well as the successes. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::A necessary element of taking a holistic view on someone's life is that the view changes with new events, which open new perspectives on what in their life is relevant and what is not. In the narrow sense of editing this article's lead, in my opinion this means focusing on why he gained power in 2016 and now in 2024 and the bases of his mass movement. To me, wasting words on the comparatively trivial matter of his business lawsuits is not part of that overarching goal. If he was just a businessman, yes, but not for who he has become. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 22:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC) :::Fair point. I do believe that the political activities from 2015 on need to be rewritten because of the unavoidable RECENTISM. But, any proper biography of Trump will include his business career, which was substantial and covered in the press and has led him to where he is. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 23:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC) ::::More and more RS on the deeper, long-term socio-economic and political trends which I described above are sure to be released and get added to this article. I only ask that editors keep an open mind and adapt to changing conditions within the RS. Much of this article's trivial content, almost all based on nearsighted and shallow analysis of contemporaneous news coverage, will need to be aggressively cut and replaced by the good stuff. Again, this is RECENTISM and will be fixed over time, hopefully sooner rather than later. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 18:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::I could not agree more with Goszei. I have been trying [[Talk:Donald Trump#something feels missing on lead|to say the same]] for a few days. Glad I am not the only one noticing the need for improvement. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 21:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] this and other discussion is where Goszei and others have been trying to argument in favor of a direct addition of the elements you removed from the lead. Goszei found a very concise prose in my opinion, which makes the second paragraph feel more complete and makes the connection to how/why Trump won in the third paragraph. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 23:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC) == Conflict of interest section == &quot;During Trump's term in office, he visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days, one visit for every 3.4 days of his presidency&quot; This includes his private residences, such as Mar-a-lago. This does not necessarily equate to a conflict of interest and should not be in the section. This might be substantial evidence enough for political op-eds, but not Wikipedia. It could be phrased like 'Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties'. In-fact, alot of this article could be written in a manner similar to this. [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C|2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C|talk]]) 07:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :The source does not say &quot;Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties&quot;. It does, however, exactly say &quot;Trump has visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days of his presidency, or one visit every 3.4 days. That means that he has visited on about two days of every week of his presidency.&quot; What you are saying it should be changed to is [[WP:OR]] and potentially [[WP:SYNTH]]. Unless, of course, you can provide a source that directly states it. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd&quot;&gt;SmittenGalaxy&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold&quot;&gt;&amp;#124;&lt;/span&gt; [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-style:italic; color:#000080&quot;&gt;talk!&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::I am having some difficulty parsing this source. The main thrust of mentioning his visits to the private properties is that it was leisure when he said he would be busy, and that it was costly to the taxpayer to have him travel there. It seems to be a slightly unnatural reading to say him visiting a property every 3.4 days constitutes a conflict of interest. Tell me if I'm wrong. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 07:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::It relates to earlier in the paragraph, talking about how he was sued for violation of the [[Domestic Emoluments Clause]] and [[Foreign Emoluments Clause]]. It does read a bit strange when you only read that specific part of the source; it does go on later to explain more about this, so if anything, it should be expanded to include that as opposed to removed. I will however leave that to someone more experienced than me. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd&quot;&gt;SmittenGalaxy&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold&quot;&gt;&amp;#124;&lt;/span&gt; [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-style:italic; color:#000080&quot;&gt;talk!&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I think it's too SYNTHY to use it as evidence of him violating those clauses unless a RS makes that connection. What do you think? Or just slap on a {{context needed}} and leave it at that? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::That's probably the best option for now, if it weren't as late I'd probably go in and rework that section myself. But it seems sufficient to me. [[User:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold; color:#663399; text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #dda0dd&quot;&gt;SmittenGalaxy&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold&quot;&gt;&amp;#124;&lt;/span&gt; [[User_talk:SmittenGalaxy|&lt;span style=&quot;font-style:italic; color:#000080&quot;&gt;talk!&lt;/span&gt;]] 08:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1256116394&amp;oldid=1256116195 Added it in] [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Well, for one thing, he significantly overcharged the Secret Service for using his properties when they had no choice but to be there.[https://www.npr.org/2022/10/17/1129491352/trump-hotels-overcharged-secret-service-agents][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/18/trump-overcharge-secret-service-hotel] &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 14:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thanks for this context. It does seem a bit small-fry compared to the other controversies listed. Why do you think a mention would not be UNDUE? You're more familiar with this page than I. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 15:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Trump overcharging the Secret Service demonstrates his attempts to enrich himself off of the presidency, and there are sources for this throughout the time of his first campaign, presidency, and Biden's presidency. Above I provided a source from 2022 and one from 2024. Here's one from [https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/donald-trump-secret-service-campaign-travel-payments-228553 2016], one from [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41005868 2017], and one from [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/feds-spend-70k-trump-hotel-scotland/story?id=56675168 2018]. It's certainly DUE for a sentence in the body. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Unless I've missed it, none of those sources allege Trump was overcharging. Each just notes that the USSS reimburses private entities for the cost of bringing them around, but the difference in the Trump case is that he typically owns the private planes, hotels, etc, to which the reimbursements are paid. A storm in a teacup. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 22:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Would you kindly briefly summarise the sources you mention and explain how you would use them? Thank you, [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 14:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Deceptive claim and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1256155368 deceptive edit]. The 2022 source is about allegations in a letter by House oversight committee chair, a Democrat. The 2024 source is about a House oversight committee minority report. The minority of Democrats does not represent the committee as a whole. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 19:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Deception is not my intent, nor is it an assumption of good faith in your part to suggest I am trying to deceive anyone. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 23:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::I made no such suggestion. By &quot;deceptive&quot; I mean &quot;misleading&quot;. I have not ascribed any motive, just stated the obvious. AGF works both ways. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 14:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::&quot;Deception&quot; implies intent. There's no AGF on vocabulary, unless English is not your first language. That I do not know. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::Please just stop. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 15:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::When you're more careful in the language you use, I'll stop. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I do think the content you tagged should be removed as improper synthesis, as explained. Removing the tag certainly was not helpful. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 18:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Removal seems in order.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 02:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::What's the synthesis? Is that sources don't use the phrase &quot;conflict of interest&quot;? The Democratic minority report called it [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/18/trump-overcharge-secret-service-hotel &quot;the world’s greatest get-rich-quick scheme&quot;] and discusses the emoluments issue. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 15:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::We are talking about Bump's column. I do not see a hook for &quot;conflict of interest&quot; in that source – either explicit or implicit. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 15:45, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Here's a [https://time.com/donald-trumps-suite-of-power/ Time magazine] piece that directly uses the term &quot;conflict of interest&quot; to describe the Trump presidency use of Trump Organization properties. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::Where are you going with this? This sub thread is solely about Bump's column, about the content removed in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=1256355950 this edit]. [[User:Politrukki|Politrukki]] ([[User talk:Politrukki|talk]]) 17:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::I can't speak to what was in the Bump column as it's paywalled, but I added sourced content about Trump properties being a conflict of interest and it was removed without an explanation, or at least I can't find it. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::I did insert a link to an archived version without the paywall, but it was removed. I understand the page is near the [[WP:PEIS]] limit, but the solution is surely using [[WP:Lua|#invoke]] or such rather than creating accessibility issues? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:13, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::[https://web.archive.org/web/20210125173840/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/20/trumps-presidency-ends-where-so-much-it-was-spent-trump-organization-property/ This] is the link to the archived version. Don't most editors know how to access the [https://web.archive.org/ Wayback Machine] and paste the url of a paywalled article into the text field? [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::::Most? I doubt it. I think that's covered in Wikipedia Editing 302. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 15:39, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::::Muboshgu has waaay more edits than me and is an admin to boot, so I just assumed. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::I'll go with &quot;that's when the wayback machine was down&quot;. Or I just forgot to check it. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC) I added material with RS that made the connection between Trump visits and influence-seekers at his {{tq|private residences}}. They're actually commercial properties where he also maintains a private residence. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC) == 2nd assassination attempt == The Pennsylvania attempt is featured in the article and a link to the page about it is included, but the absence of anything about the 2nd attempt in Florida, including a link to the page for it, is strikingly absent. I'm sure authorized editors will quickly correct this honest oversight. [[Special:Contributions/216.168.91.102|216.168.91.102]] ([[User talk:216.168.91.102|talk]]) 22:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC) :We don't mention the 2016 incident where someone tried to kill Trump, so I don't see why we need to mention the Florida incident. The only one where Trump was harmed was the Pennsylvania one, so that one seems like the most important one to include. The Florida incident can be mentioned at the article for [[Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign|the 2024 campaign]]. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 15:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC) == Assassination attempts in lede? == Why not a brief mention of the two assassination attempts against Trump in the lede? Surely it's up there in notability with him serving two non-consecutive terms. [[User:Evaporation123|Evaporation123]] ([[User talk:Evaporation123|talk]]) 01:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :There have been more then 2 [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 04:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :I was thinking this earlier today. Feels odd that this is not mentioned. ([[User talk:Not0nshoree|Discuss]] [[User:Not0nshoree|'''''0nshore's''''']] [[Special:contributions/Not0nshoree|contributions!!!]]) 15:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Yes, it was a very important event in Trump's political life, so it's correct to include this information in the lead. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 18:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Popular vote win or loss? &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Last section of lead breaks WIKI policies&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == “winning both the [[List of United States presidential elections by popular vote margin|popular]] and electoral vote” this is from the newest section of the lead he did win the electoral vote but the popular vote is still being counted as of 11/8 11:20 EST he has only a 2.6% lead with millions of votes left to count particularly from California this is assumption and there isn’t any vaild source claiming he did this needs to be removed immediately [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 04:21, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :From the cursory research I've just done, including NBC and NYT, it does appear a popvote loss is within the realm of possibility, so there may be a bit of [[WP:CRYSTAL]] there. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:51, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::Shouldn’t it be removed until then? [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 18:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::Someone may have to do that just to get some eyes on the issue. You don't need prior agreement for a [[WP:BOLD|bold]] edit that does not violate an existing consensus. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :Leave it be, until/if Harris passes him. PS - {{ping|John Bois}} It would be best to first bring this up at [[2024 United States presidential election]], where Trump's pop-vote total is currently bolden, in the infobox. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::@[[User:John Bois|John Bois]] [[WP:THEHILL]] has [https://thehill.com/homenews/nexstar_media_wire/4976301-when-was-the-last-time-the-republican-party-won-the-popular-vote/ reported] a popular vote win for Trump; however, if it’s not already covered in the body it probably should be added. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 19:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::NBC NYT and AP have not declared it yet [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 19:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've opened [[Talk:2024 United States presidential election#Popular vote total|up a discussion]] at the 2024 election page, about your concerns. Honestly though, most of the networks must have confirmed that there's not enough (currently uncounted) votes left for Harris to overtake Trump, going by the percentage track. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Thank you! [[User:John Bois|John Bois]] ([[User talk:John Bois|talk]]) 04:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I suppose it’s up to editor consensus since we have some reliable sources reporting popular vote victory and some are not. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 19:38, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If there are a few reliable sources claiming it, we should have it in until proven otherwise. There is pretty good confidence/credible info that points that direction. I think [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]] is more of unsubstantiated claims. [[User:MaximusEditor|MaximusEditor]] ([[User talk:MaximusEditor|talk]]) 18:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::There's no harm in waiting for it to be official. California only has 63% reporting at the moment, there are more votes to come that at the very least will make it a narrow margin either way. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 01:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC) == Public image summary style == I mentioned in a thread above that some of the content in #Public image has nothing to do with public image and creates verifiability issues. Having now read the main article, [[Public image of Donald Trump]], I can see this stems from a failure to use [[WP:SUMMARYSTYLE]]. To conform, the lvl3 headings in #Public image should be the lvl2 headings in the main article, not just a spot to throw miscellanea. Such a rewrite would remove discussion of Trump's use of social media and racism, which are likely DUE for this article. I want to discuss where they should go. Keeping them in #Public image isn't an option given the violation of [[WP:Verifiability]]. Best, [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC) [[Talk:Donald Trump#Public Image#Incitement of Violence|Here]] the previous thread. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 21:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC) :I have made some changes to the organization per the above. The article was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256505959 previously structured]: :'''7 Public''' Image 7.1 Scholarly assessment and public approval surveys 7.2 False or misleading statements 7.3 Promotion of conspiracy theories 7.4 Incitement of violence 7.5 Social media 7.6 Relationship with the press 7.7 Racial views 7.8 Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct 7.9 Popular culture :It is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256522879 now structured]: :'''7 Assessments''' 7.1 Public 7.2 Scholarly :'''8 Political practice''' 8.1 False or misleading statements 8.2 Rhetoric 8.3 Promotion of conspiracy theories 8.4 Social media 8.5 Relationship with the press :'''9 Prejudice''' 9.1 Racial views 9.2 Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct :I have also started a discussion at [[Talk:Racial views of Donald Trump#Changing the title]] which will impact the subheading &quot;Racial views&quot; [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC) == Too many words together, in blue == Forgive me folks. But &quot;[[Second inauguration of Donald Trump|His inauguration as the 47th president]]&quot;, looks terrible. It's a long blue sentence, basically. I attempted to fix this with &quot;[[Second inauguration of Donald Trump|His inauguration]] as the 47th president&quot;. But was reverted. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :{{Ping|GoodDay}} in my opinion it's necessary. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 00:30, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256444346 Your edit] created an [[MOS:EGG]] problem. The article has many links of that length or longer, and the length of the linktext is not our first priority. You might as well change [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|hush money payment to Stormy Daniels]] to [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|hush money payment]] to Stormy Daniels because there's &quot;too much blue&quot;, and I think most editors would oppose that as well. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:45, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::I'm not gonna push this too much, as the lead will change 500+ more times, between now &amp; January 20, 2025. On inauguration day, the whole sentence will be extinct by then. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:48, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{Ping|GoodDay}} the [[Donald Trump]] discussion page is already too long, in my opinion this thread is unnecessary (in my opinion). [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 21:41, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Concluded discussions tend to get archived, after twenty-four hours. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{Ping|GoodDay}} damn, excuse me. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 21:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{Ping|GoodDay}} Only after closure, per consensus 13. Are you withdrawing this? If so, I'll close. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC) {{hat|Off-topic, borderline bullying. Be better. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 01:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC)}} :::Awesome. Please don't start discussions about things that you are not going to push very much. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Please don't tell me what to do. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:52, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Please don't tell ''me'' what to do. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC) {{hab}} == Inclusion of release of grades == I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256544506 removed] &quot;In 2015, Trump's lawyer threatened Trump's colleges, his high school, and the [[College Board]] with legal action if they released his academic records&quot; from the early life section saying it was &quot;undue for this section&quot;. A few hours later, {{u|Farkle Griffen}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256597546 added it back in] with the description &quot;Explained why his academic performance is not known&quot;, not addressing the concern about whether it was [[WP:DUE|giving it too much emphasis]]. Before I removed the text, I did a search of coverage, and found that the issue was very rarely mentioned after it was discovered, and only in passing. Giving it a relatively high amount of attention in the early life section therefore seems inappropriate. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC) :I disagree [[User:Anonymous8206|Anonymous8206]] ([[User talk:Anonymous8206|talk]]) 00:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Didn't see that it was previously removed, but mentioning academic performance in school is relatively common in Wikipedia articles on biographies of political figures, and it's certainly relevant in a section about academic history; mentioning why this information is not available seems just as relevant. I don't see how a single sentence is too much emphasis. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 00:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|Farkle Griffen}} Could you respond to the issue of coverage not being lasting (applying [[WP:NOTNEWS]] and [[WP:RECENTISM]])? I do believe the Early life section should be expanded; if that happened I would be more likely to support inclusion. Right now however, &quot;one sentence&quot; makes up 20% of Wikipedia's coverage of Trump's early life. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:13, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::To be clear, I'm not that much in favor of keeping it, it just feels like a strange argument to say: &quot;This section is too short... so we should make it shorter.&quot; But to respond to your first sentence, this news went viral around February 2019, which was five (nearly six) years ago; I could be wrong, but I don't think [[WP:NOTNEWS]] and [[WP:RECENTISM]] apply here. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Re Farkle Griffen; it is a strange argument, but the idea is that the article is already very unbalanced against the Early life section, and this would make a negligible change to that imbalance, while the Early life section is very unbalanced towards this event, and removing it would make a significant change to that imbalance. See my reply below for RECENTISM in particular. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{tq|coverage not being lasting}} You seem to be saying we shouldn't keep the content because RS is not still talking about it. That doesn't seem workable, since RS has other things to talk about. RECENTISM? What's recent about something that happened nine years ago? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:00, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The second sentence of RECENTISM says &quot;It is writing without an aim toward a long-term, historical view,&quot; which is how I'm assessing DUE. The best sources for assessing whether biographical details are DUE in this sense are, obviously, biographies, as they are assessing how details fit into a life as a whole. On the other end of the spectrum, the absolute worst sources for this assessment are breaking news sources about a revelation about a biographical detail. As an example, Trump's eligibility for the draft received a lot more coverage than this over a longer time period. But biographies published after the fact treat it as a small issue in his early life overall. These sources are therefore insufficient to show it is DUE. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I'm struggling to imagine writing this article primarily based on published biographies, in which content can't be written or verified without a trip to the library or a book store. Are we to limit editing to editors who are prepared to do that (which would exclude me), or should the rest of us just take the word of those who are?{{pb}}As a practical matter, you're not going to get consensus for reasoning that departs from how editors have operated here for eight years&amp;mdash;unless you have uninvolved closure in which the closer is convinced by your arguments. You may be in the unfortunate position of being far superior to your colleagues. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I won't press this any further, there doesn't seem to be momentum. For my own benefit in determining if material is DUE on this page in the future, would &quot;Coverage across multiple RS is sufficient to suggest inclusion is DUE&quot; be an accurate summary of this discussion? ::::::I will note that high-quality sources that are doing overall evaluations are most beneficial for DUE in creating the bones of the article. Editors still have to put meat on them. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::In my opinion, the article has been dysfunctional in the DUE area for eight years. Some content has been added on the basis of one or two sources and accompanying &quot;editorial judgment&quot; that it's DUE. Other content has been omitted on the basis of 15 sources and accompanying &quot;editorial judgment&quot; that it's UNDUE. It seemed to me that DUE has been more about &quot;editorial judgment&quot; than anything else, which left the article wide open to editor biases. Thankfully, one of the main culprits was recently indefinitely banned from all things Donald Trump (not for that reason but for bad behavior), but they were only one. I can't fix the world. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Based on your experience here, what do you think should be done to help with NPOV? In a similar vein, you mention below that you are looking for arguments beyond editorial judgement, and you later indicated this was met. What was it that convinced you that DUE was met? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{tq|Based on your experience here, what do you think should be done to help with NPOV?}} In a better encyclopedia, ArbCom or WMF would intervene here. That's fantasy at this point, so I don't know what could be done. It's part of why I'm semi-retired. I'm just here for the mental stimulation, for interaction with other smart people (I don't do social media), because I have a talent for efficiency and organization that makes me a good facilitator on this page, and because I have nothing better to do with my time. {{tq|What was it that convinced you that DUE was met?}} Six linked sources and the promise of {{tq|about a dozen others}}, which I took at face value. We can talk about &quot;larger issues&quot; all day long, but we also have to get some work done. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:26, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Thanks for these comments. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:27, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :There's too much &quot;editorial judgment&quot; going on here. Somebody please present a persuasive DUE case for inclusion, based on RS coverage. Absent that, I support the removal. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:58, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::Not sure what DUE has to do with this since this doesn't seem to be a NPOV issue, however, for RS coverage, just going going off the first results on Google, this is mentioned by: [https://time.com/5540152/donald-trump-michael-cohen-academic-records/Lq6 Time Magazine] , [https://apnews.com/article/04f0236264e8427d9995e4de68e62729 AP News], [https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/27/politics/michael-cohen-trump-threaten-school-records/index.html CNN], [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/fordham-university-confirms-cohen-warned-it-not-to-disclose-trumps-grades PBS News], [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/politics/trump-school-grades.html NY Times], and [https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/02/27/cohen-says-he-threatened-schools-over-possible-release-president-trumps-sat-scores-or-grades/ WP], among about a dozen others. Granted, these are news stories, not biographies. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::Unless I'm mistaken, DUE has everything to do with all content. {{tq|Granted, these are news stories, not biographies.}} I'd say 90%+ of the article is based on news stories; that's the nature of the beast. (As I interpret it, NOTNEWS mostly means we don't (or shouldn't) rush to publish breaking news.) Now, since I don't move goalposts, you have persuaded me unless someone can persuasively counter your case by showing how those sources don't support the content. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::AFAIK, &quot;DUE&quot; only refers to [[WP:DUE]], which is a subsection of [[WP:Neutral Point of View]], and only really talks about the due ''weight'' of a ''viewpoint''. Am I wrong? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:19, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::You're right, although DUE tends to be used as a shorthand for all weighting issues. [[WP:PROPORTION]] is more accurate. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Hey, I'm no policy guru; much of it moggles my bind. All I know is that, in practice at this article and others where I've spent significant time, &quot;viewpoint&quot; is a very broad term loosely applied. Why don't you take this specific case to [[WP:NPOVN]] and (with any luck) educate all of us? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:30, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :We need room for obvious reasons. Stuff like this should probably be on the chopping block. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|R. G. Checkers}} Why do you think this is undue? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::We are never going to make significant progress on article size one sentence at a time; might as well try to significantly shrink Lake Erie using buckets while others are pouring water into it with other buckets &lt;/hyperbolic metaphor&gt;. Progress on article size will require gutting large parts of the article, such as much of the detail in &quot;Foreign policy&quot;, moving to summary style. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC) Related discussion at &quot;Wording of sentence on Trump attending New York Military Academy&quot; with more sources, above. Trump has claimed since the 1970s that he [https://web.archive.org/web/20151001054028/https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/business/dealbook/decades-old-questions-over-trumps-wealth-and-education.html graduated at the top of his class] at Wharton and that you had to be a [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-who-often-boasts-of-his-wharton-degree-says-he-was-admitted-to-the-hardest-school-to-get-into-the-college-official-who-reviewed-his-application-recalls-it-differently/2019/07/08/0a4eb414-977a-11e9-830a-21b9b36b64ad_story.html super genius] to be admitted to Wharton in 1966. Both claims were debunked, despite Trump not releasing his records. And in 2019 Michael Cohen turned over the threatening letters Trump had him send to Wharton and his high school. It wasn't just the news of the day, it's been mentioned in probably every Trump biography published since then. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC) As for {{tq|need[ing] room for obvious reasons}}, that's [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]. My crystal ball thinks we'll end up with comparisons between his first and second presidency, resulting in fewer details for the first one. We'll have to wait and see what RS report about the second one. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Thanks {{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}. I've got my copy of [[Trump Revealed]] to see the weighting they place. Their discussion of Trump's grades are quite limited, and only really discussed in the context of Wharton, which makes sense given that was a focus to establish credibility as a businessman. In their discussion of Trump at Wharton, they give an equal amount of value Trump ascribed to the degree, to his draft exemption, his later alumni contributions and how relatively wealth he was compared to the cohort. His education at Wharton covers four pages of the 20 dedicated to his early life. :A lot more of the text is spent discussing his aggression as a child and teen; this should be included before his grades are. If his Early life were expanded to the size of [[Barack Obama#Early life and career|Barack Obama's]], it should certainly be included. I'll check other biographies later to see how their emphases compare. The needing room comment may refer to the article's size already being very long. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::The book was published in 2016, three years before Cohen [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/politics/trump-school-grades.html told the NYT] about Trump's efforts to keep his grades secret after harping about Obama's academic record for years. As if anyone but Trump would care about high school grades 50 years later. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::I didn't mean to imply it was published after this came out. In your estimation, how much more of the early life section would have been taken up by it if it had? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 14:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::No idea. Pre-presidency content that went to character kept getting trimmed because of the avalanche of presidency events. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC) == Statistic and Grover Cleveland in the lead == {{tq|Becoming only the second President in history to serve non-consecutive terms, the first being Grover Cleveland.}} Is the statistic leadworthy? Is Grover Cleveland leadworthy? (Also, [[MOS:EDITORIAL]], [[MOS:OFFICE]], and missing subject and verb.) [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :I personally think that something that has only happened twice in over 200 years of U.S. presidency is lead worthy, but others may disagree, that's just my two cents [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 22:19, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::This indicates support for the first sentence. Do you support the second? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 22:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :::I'm not really sure what the second is proposing, I had a look at those policies but have obviously missed / overlooked something when trying to understand [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 23:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|Artem P75}} apologies if I was unclear. The second sentence is {{tq|Is Grover Cleveland leadworthy?}} [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I guess maybe not? as he isn't the subject matter? Maybe we could mention Trump being only the second without mentioning Grover... but I also do agree with @[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] that the lead is too long and could use some culling [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 00:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Not to nitpick, but he hasn't served his second term, yet. The sentence would be more accurate, after he assumes office in January 2025. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 22:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC) ::Ah yeah, I agree with that, I think the policy is WP:CRYSTALBALL? Or something that I have seen used for this? Maybe could say ''elected'' to serve a second term instead? Otherwise may as well just wait until the 20th of Jan to make the decision [[User:Artem P75|Artem P75]] ([[User talk:Artem P75|talk]]) 23:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC) :Our lead is too long as it is. Throwing in this tidbit about Grover Cleveland doesn't help matters. It's [[WP:TRIVIA]]. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 00:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1256876621&amp;oldid=1256875459 Removed Grover Cleveland reference] [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Not trivia by any means; pulling a Grover Cleveland by winning the 2024 Presidential race after losing a bid for re-election in 2020 is something Donald here has lately been getting lots of attention for, with the press making comparisons between both men following this highly unusual achievement. The 132 years elapsing before that happening on the other hand is an expendable count. We definitely should have some mention of doing something only Grover did before. Let's not downplay the significance of it. The first paragraph doesn't necessarily have to be the place to discuss that, and I'm fine with the last one doing so. In the linked diff showing removal, Rollinginhisgrave also carelessly ignored how the ambiguity of just saying Donald is the second to win non-consecutive election will leave readers asking &quot;Who was the first to do so?&quot; and we shouldn't assume everyone will already know the answer. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 02:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Highly unusual because parties usually have the good sense not to nominate the loser a second time, but good sense goes out the window after a political party has transformed itself into a cult. Cleveland's misogyny ({{tq|sensible and responsible women do not want to vote. The relative positions to be assumed by men and women in the working out of our civilization were assigned long ago by a higher intelligence}}) and anti-labor stance would have fit right in but how many readers come to this page to read about him. Also, &quot;second&quot;? Trump has a few — uh — achievements all to himself: first felon, first man found liable by a court for sexual assault, first nominee/president-elect to be promoting merch from shoes to Bibles Made in China branded with his name. If we want to cite stats in the lead, these are the ones we should select. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 13:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|SNUGGUMS}} Much of the lede invites questions: why did his businesses fail? How did Russia interfere? What did he do that was racist, sexist etc? So on. To answer those questions a reader may read on to see what the lede is summarizing. It's the nature of summary style. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} You're presuming all viewers would have enough time to read the page beyond its lead section and that's not a guarantee. To elaborate on rarity, what I'm getting at is that non-consecutive wins are an almost unprecedented occurrence that many folks once believed would never be repeated. The closest anybody came before last week was Theodore Roosevelt during the 1912 election. This is far less common than things like businesses failing or someone being racist/sexist. While I can't yet say for sure that it'll be the most prominent trait of his Presidential statistics like it appears to be for Grover, people either way would expect a straightforward mention of names when discussing only one of two in history who broke longstanding patterns. It wouldn't exactly be a big bloat to simply identify him. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 22:47, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :I would agree that something that has happened only twice in over 200 years is lead worthy... I think the lead in general needs a very thorough cleanup, for example the entire third paragraph, starting with: :&quot;In his first term, Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, funded expansion of the Mexico–United States border wall...&quot; :Should probably just be moved to the &quot;First Presidency&quot; section... These are things he did while he was in office for his first term so I would think that is the section where they belong rather than contributing to the bloat in the lead... but I will not expand the subject matter here and will raise another talk page post on this &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 22:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Leads convey the most important parts of the person's bio. There are a number of sources about Grover Cleveland's presidency now that we have a second non-consecutive term president, but this press will die out before Thanksgiving and it will be mostly forgotten. Cleveland is meaningless to Trump's biography aside from that one trivial commonality. I do agree about the need for a thorough rewrite though. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 23:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::We need to reflect the emphasis that RS put on this. Our discussion of the comparison to Cleveland is sourced to [https://www.npr.org/2024/11/04/g-s1-32048/grover-cleveland-trump-non-consecutive-terms this NPR article]. Those who support including the comparison in the lede: do you think this sourcing verifies that inclusion in the lede would be [[WP:PROPORTIONATE]], and that it's inclusion (from [[WP:MOS/LEAD]]) {{tq|reflect[s] its importance to the topic?}} [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I do not think there is a weight issue here per [[WP:PROPORTIONATE]], it currently only makes up a single sentence of the lead, its not as though it goes in to depth or discussion, it just mentions it as a single line tagged on to the mentioning of his second victory, which was a non-consecutive victory, so I believe is worth mentioning as it is only the second in history. Although this is also mentioned at the end of the first paragraph: {{tq|&quot;In November 2024, he was re-elected to a second, non-consecutive term as president&quot;}} so we could add mention of the fact that this is only the second time this has happened in that section and remove mention of it in the last paragraph? &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 23:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Just to be clear, that NPR link isn't the only piece to make comparisons between these guys, and Artem has a good point on weight/proportionate concerns. I see no violation per the importance of these unconventional winning stats. Muboshgu also got overly hasty with remarks on people forgetting it before Thanksgiving. That's purely speculation and we have no way of telling for certain how many will remember the similarities. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 23:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Thanks SNUGGUMS and Artem for these replies. I agree that Muboshgu's comment likely fell too far into [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]], but we do need to account for [[WP:RECENTISM]]. Including one sentence on something of course can give too much weight, even if it's not in depth. I'm sure you can think of many examples. Proportion therefore applies, as does MOS:LEAD. :::::{{tq|so I believe is worth mentioning as it is only the second in history}} I understand you believe that, but we are to reflect the importance placed by RS. Do you think that is demonstrated by the source provided? :::::{{tq|that NPR link isn't the only piece to make comparisons}} If you think other sources are able/better able to verify the importance, please provide them. :::::I want to reassure you both that I'm not opposed to including the comparison, I just want to ensure it's inclusion doesn't violate [[WP:NPOV]] by verifying that importance placed reflects that of RS. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I guess if giving appropriate weight to the RS is the concern it would be beneficial to locate other sources that report on this so as to not give an undue balance. I'm sure this will not be difficult as it does seem like something noteworthy, but then again it may not be as noteworthy as I perceive and there very may well not be much RS on it. I will see if I can locate some good reliable sources in my free time this afternoon and propose them here &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} For what it's worth, there's pieces from [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2024/11/06/grover-cleveland-other-president-win-back-trump-election/ The Daily Telegraph], [https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4979460-trump-election-grover-cleveland-white-house/amp/ The Hill], [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/us/politics/trump-grover-cleveland-second-term.html The New York Times], [https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/11/06/donald-trump-grover-cleveland-non-consecutive-president-terms/76088079007/ USA Today] [https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article295130869.html Miami Herald], [https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/national-international/donald-trump-grover-cleveland-nonsecutive-presidential-terms/3666352/ WBC-TV (aka NBC Washington)], etc. that discuss differences and similarities between the men. If you want other samples, then I could provide those as well. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 06:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :That's okay for now. This goes some way to establishing [[WP:WEIGHT]], although insufficiently (it's unclear how this goes beyond simple verifiability, and [[WP:VNOT|verifiability does not guarantee inclusion]]). To avoid [[Wikipedia:Bring me a rock]], if you'll permit me a few hours I'll have a look through sourcing. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{u|SNUGGUMS}}, {{u|Artem P75}} I had a go at evaluating the weighting RS put on claims to importance. I used a sample of sources; a different sample may generate different results. I searched &quot;donald trump win&quot; (not in quotes) on Google. I opened every result for a few pages and closed pages that were attributed as an individual's opinion or analysis. I closed some that didn't discuss what the election meant. I closed some that were about a subtopic, such as the election win in Arizona, and talked about the importance to Arizona etc. Excluded articles were: [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/09/politics/donald-trump-election-what-matters/index.html][https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/president-results][https://www.npr.org/2024/11/10/g-s1-33609/donald-trump-wins-arizona][https://www.heritage.org/conservatism/commentary/trumps-win-ordinary-americans-declared-independence-the-elites][https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ap-race-call-donald-trump-wins-arizona][https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/trump-wins-arizona-election-harris-swing-state-rcna173809][https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/11/05/us/elections/results-president.html][https://naacp.org/articles/naacp-reacts-news-president-elect-donald-trumps-win-2024-presidential-election][https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/10/20/trump-overturn-2024-election-plan-00184103][https://www.cbsnews.com/video/the-factors-that-led-to-donald-trumps-victory/][https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-harris-polls][https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/][https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-lede/donald-trump-wins-a-second-term]. I then crudely [[coding (social sciences)|coded]] the results and even more crudely numerically described the emphasis the source was placing (1 being in the title, 0 being not mentioned). {{Collapse top}} {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; |+ Crude [[Coding (social sciences)|Coding]] of news articles |- | Title |Outlet|| + Latino shift || + votes on border || + Urban votes || No change in suburban vote || Rural vote || Swing state sweep || Political comeback || Won frustrated voters || Validated coarse rhetoric || Outperformed 2020 || + US stock market || + BTC || Non-consecutive || Grover Cleveland || First convicted felon || Oldest elected || Prices || Crime || Migrants || Kamala unpopular Biden || Consumer sentiment || Inflation || Young voters || Suburban movement || Not a huge win || Shocked Democrats || Women voters || Black voters || College degree voters || Kamala time-short || Trump's Continuing dominance of politics || Blue wall defeated || COVID considered history || Tim Walz bad || White voters || Economy || Decisive || Popular vote, first Republican in 20 years || Religious || Trans || Deportation || Anti-elite || Not shocking || 2nd time beating woman || Not seen as fascist || Female president || Protests || Men || White without college degree || Direction of country |- |[https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/10/politics/trump-voter-shifts-nationwide/index.html Trump’s 2024 victory revealed voter shifts that could reshape America’s political landscape] |CNN|| 0.75 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/election-2024-trump-celebrates-win/ Election 2024: Trump sweeps all 7 battleground states, CBS News projects] |CBS|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://apnews.com/article/election-day-trump-harris-white-house-83c8e246ab97f5b97be45cdc156af4e2 Trump wins the White House in a political comeback rooted in appeals to frustrated voters] |AP|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0.9 || 0.5 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- |[https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2024-11-12/donald-trumps-presidential-election-victory-in-6-charts Donald Trump’s Election Victory, in 6 Charts] |U.S. News|| 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.lemonde.fr/en/united-states/article/2024/11/10/2024-us-election-donald-trump-wins-arizona_6732283_133.html 2024 US Election: Donald Trump wins Arizona in swing state sweep] |Le Monde|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://time.com/7172052/how-donald-trump-won-2024/ How Trump Won] |Time|| 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/7/us-election-results-how-did-donald-trump-break-the-blue-wall US election results: How did Donald Trump break the ‘blue wall’ – again?] |Al Jazeera|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-win-presidency-2024/ Donald Trump wins election in historic comeback after 2020 loss, indictments and bruising campaign] |CBS|| 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/czxrnw5qrprt Donald Trump wins 2024 US election in historic comeback] |BBC|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://apnews.com/article/trump-harris-presidential-election-takeaways-d0e4677f4cd53b4d2d8d18d674be5bf4 Election takeaways: Trump’s decisive victory in a deeply divided nation] |AP|| 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.3 || 0.25 || 0 || 0.3 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.1 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0.5 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/us/politics/trump-wins-presidency.html Donald Trump Returns to Power, Ushering in New Era of Uncertainty] |NY Times|| 0.3 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.7 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.3 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0.4 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gpd2487e5o The view from countries where Trump's win really matters] |BBC|| 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-wins-2nd-term-historic-return-white/story?id=115358710 Donald Trump wins 2nd term in historic return to White House] |ABC|| || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.6 || 0 || 0 || 0.6 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- | [https://time.com/7175083/donald-trump-presidency-inflation/ What Donald Trump’s Win Means for Inflation] |Time|| || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- |[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/10/trump-wins-arizona-completing-sweep-of-all-seven-battleground-states-ap-reports Trump wins Arizona to clinch sweep of seven battleground states] |The Guardian|| || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.5 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 |- |[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/06/donald-trump-wins-presidential-election/ Donald Trump wins presidential election, defeating Harris to retake White House] |Washington Post|| 0.75 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.35 || 0 || 0.4 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0.6 || 0 || 0 || 0.7 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.25 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.75 || 0.75 |- | Sum | || 3.55 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 3 || 5.25 || 3.1 || 0.5 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 1.15 || 1.1 || 0.75 || 1.65 || 0.9 || 0.25 || 1.65 || 1.6 || 0.5 || 2.65 || 1.6 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.5 || 1.55 || 0.25 || 0.25 || 0.5 || 0.5 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 0.65 || 0.5 || 1.75 || 0.5 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 0.8 || 0 || 0.25 || 0.65 || 0.25 || 1 || 0 || 0.75 || 0.75 || 0.75 |} {{collapse bottom}} Takeaways: * From this sample, for RS, the most significant thing about this election was it being a political comeback. * The increase in Trump's vote among Latinos was also seen as significant, for example: **[https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/10/politics/trump-voter-shifts-nationwide/index.html &quot;A trend with the potential to remake the American political landscape is the huge shift in Latino voters toward Trump.&quot;] **[https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2024-11-12/donald-trumps-presidential-election-victory-in-6-charts &quot;As has been extensively noted, exit polls show that Latino men went from backing Biden by 23 points to backing Trump by 12 points, a stunning result.&quot;]) * It was seen as less historic that Trump was the second president to have non-consecutive terms than that he was the oldest. * When sources did mention the historicity of Trump's non-consecutive terms, they gave equal emphasis of the achievement with a discussion of Grover Cleveland. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::With all of those results in mind, I don't see any problems with due weight for the part regarding non-consecutive wins. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 13:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::I actually think the opposite having now done the review. Could you clarify why including the fact in the lead at all would be giving due weight, when it was not given such weight by RS? Surely the appropriate outcome here given would be to replace it with the characterization as a political comeback? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::&quot;...{{tq|replace it with the characterization as a political comeback}}&quot; I would support this. ''To me'' it is significant that he was the second in history to win non-consecutive terms and I find it quite interesting, but from the above it seems like there has been next to no coverage on it, and Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the weight given by [[WP:RS]], so unfortunately I don't see a reason to include this fact in the lead &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 21:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC) {{outdent}} By your own admission, Rollinginhisgrave, it was '''equal emphasis of the achievement with a discussion of Grover Cleveland'''. That suggests any mention of the non-consecutive wins would be an appropriate place to name the other guy. It's unreasonable to now assert otherwise and the way you did so sounds like a cheap cop-out. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 22:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Please assume good faith of me, I have no preferences beyond reflecting the weight of RS, and I 100% agree that the results above {{tq|suggests any mention of the non-consecutive wins would be an appropriate place to name the other guy}}; if included in the body, it should be represented as such. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 22:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::In that case, keep a watch for any other pieces that come up covering both men, and those can be assessed for further calculations on weight. It wouldn't surprise me to see more pop up, but only time will tell how many others will talk about their similarities and differences. [[User:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;SNUGGUMS&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/b&gt;]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#009900&quot;&gt;edits&lt;/b&gt;]]) 01:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|SNUGGUMS}} It wouldn't surprise me either. When/if we get there, we can make those alterations. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == Russia was a hoax == Mueller’s results found nothing so that part is 100% INACCURATE. [[Special:Contributions/71.205.198.48|71.205.198.48]] ([[User talk:71.205.198.48|talk]]) 02:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Could you be more specific in what you're referring to / proposing? :...To me, this makes no sense &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 02:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::In our biographical article on Trump, we spend a lot of space on possible collusion by Trump's 2016 campaign with Russia interference, although ''[https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf Mueller Report]'', vol. I, p. 173: &quot;Ultimately, the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities.&quot; [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 07:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Regarding a lot of space, see the section [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256976843#Investigations Investigations]. Also, I looked in the subsection [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256976843#Mueller_investigation Mueller Investigation] and I couldn't find any mention of the ultimate result mentioned in my above message. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 15:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Do we say there was collusion? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::No, but the report not finding any evidence of collusion resulted in it being a political debacle for the Democrats, basically vindicated Trump's charges of a &quot;Russiagate witchhunt&quot;, and embarrassed the news media (notably the ''NYT'', who pumped the story day after day for years in a manner which is honestly comparable to the false stories about alleged WMDs before the Iraq War). What this article says is correct, but these circumstances should make us rethink its mention within the lead. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Another sensible point. The landscape has shifted beneath our feet here, and we haven't been responsive to the latest RS. A lot of the Russia stuff is legacy text from a time when RS were much more comfortable speculating about a link between Trump and the Kremlin. That's now largely stopped as more information has come out. [[User:Riposte97|Riposte97]] ([[User talk:Riposte97|talk]]) 10:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I also agree on this. The lead is too long, and ultimately the Russia-Muller angle petered out. Even if something was regularly on the news at the time, it probably shouldn't be in the lead if it had little lasting significance. [[User:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM]] ([[User talk:NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM|talk]]) 11:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) == Parents, children, and spouses links in the infobox &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Parents and children links in the infobox&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == Re: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1256913704] This keeps getting added and removed with no resolution in sight. As I understand it, the rationale for omission has been that the parents are covered by the &quot;Trump family&quot; link. On the other hand, so are the children and they remain linked in the infobox. I'm thinking it's parents and children, or neither. In any case, let's settle this once and, hopefully, for all. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :Looking at other U.S. politician's pages, specifically [[Barack Obama]] and [[George W. Bush]], they both have their parents listed, and then a separate section for &quot;relatives&quot; with [[Obama Family]] and [[Bush Family]] respectively being linked. The same applies to [[John F. Kennedy]] and [[Kamala Harris]] to name some other examples, so I would think we should follow suit on the Trump article &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 05:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :I was about to make almost the same post, except that &quot;Spouses&quot; is also thoroughly covered by the link, so I would say it's either include parents or remove children and spouses. :The current infobox is somewhat long already, but information like Children/Spouses/Parents is extremely common in biographies on Wikipedia, and usually considered &quot;pertinent information&quot;, so I can see reasoning in either direction. :I don't really care which direction is chosen, but for consistency with other articles, I'd lean more toward adding the parents. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 05:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :[[MOS:INFOBOX]] identifies the purpose of inboxes as allowing the reader to &quot;identify key facts at a glance&quot;. Given this, the link to [[Family of Donald Trump]] should be removed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 05:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Not necessarily disagreeing, but it appears to be an argument against the {{para|relatives}} parameter of {{tlx|Infobox officeholder}}. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 05:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Perhaps, I'm not sure how it is applied/intended. If it is intended to list notable individual relatives, then it's not an argument against. Probably best to assume that's the intent as it is the assumption that aligns with the guidelines. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Ok, so all of the cited precedents are just wrong, and I could live with that. &quot;The existence of bad stuff does not justify or excuse the addition or retention of other bad stuff of the same kind. Not all consistency is good consistency.&quot; On my user page since January 2018. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If we were to agree to remove these fields and lump it all into [[Trump Family]] would we then have to go to the other politician pages to also change this? I'm not opposed to this, it just seems like a lot of work for a change that seems like a matter of semantics &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 06:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::&lt;s&gt;Remove the fields of both parents/children? I don't think anyone's making the case for that. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt; Apologies Mandruss, I don't seem to be carefully reading at the moment, I will take a break. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::We could, but we wouldn't have to. That kind of thing always turns little issues into gigantic issues, and other articles are not affected by decisions made at this one. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::Wouldn't this same reasoning apply to the '''Awards''' section? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::Avoid topic expansion. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I don't understand Mandruss' comment above, but yes I would say so. Could be worth asking for clarity on [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 06:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I'm thinking ahead to a consensus item about {{tq|Parents, children, and spouses links in the infobox}}, which would link to this discussion, which would contain stuff about other issues. Not good organization. Address separate topics separately. Start linking issues like that, and things quickly grow too large to deal with effectively. Usually not helpful to try to solve all the related problems at once. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The point being, ''if'' the same logic applies, then I don't think the reasoning is valid. There is no ''way'' the intended use of the '''Awards''' section is to list the &quot;most important&quot; awards, because choosing which are the &quot;most important&quot; would be very controversial on every article where the subject has more than a few awards (''let alone'' this article). ::::Of course, this is all speculation, and I could be wrong. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If you're not proposing we do something to the {{para|awards}} parameter in this discussion, disregard my comments &lt;del&gt;with my apologies&lt;/del&gt;. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC) Edited after reply 06:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Don't apologize; it was a very reasonable assumption [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 06:46, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Ok, I apologize for apologizing. Stricken. :) &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC) I've posted a question [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Can MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE be updated to reflect discussion here?|here]] at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes]]. Hopefully they can clarify the intent, as there seems to be some disagreement on the talk page. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 08:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC) == Financial == Here's some material that is in our article at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1257039271#Financial] :Financial :In April 2019, the House Oversight Committee issued subpoenas seeking financial details from Trump's banks, Deutsche Bank and Capital One, and his accounting firm, Mazars USA. Trump sued the banks, Mazars, and committee chair Elijah Cummings to prevent the disclosures.[506] In May, DC District Court judge Amit Mehta ruled that Mazars must comply with the subpoena,[507] and judge Edgardo Ramos of the Southern District Court of New York ruled that the banks must also comply.[508][509] Trump's attorneys appealed.[510] In September 2022, the committee and Trump agreed to a settlement about Mazars, and the accounting firm began turning over documents.[511] It doesn't appear to be worthwhile for our article, is just taking up space and maybe we should delete it. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 22:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|Bob K31416}} What weighting do RS give it? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::In the material there were 6 refs. The first was April 22, 2019, then 4 refs May 21–22 and finally one September 17. It was an episode of congress subpoenas for some of Trump's financial records. As we look at the episode today, there doesn't seem to be much of interest there. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 11:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Bob K31416}} Hope you don't mind, I may take a day or a few getting to this, but I'm not ignoring it and think it is worth evaluating in some depth. In the meantime, have a look in secondary sources 2022 and later and see if they discuss/give weight. Some examples of sources: [https://www.routledge.com/Criminology-on-Trump/Barak/p/book/9781032117904?srsltid=AfmBOooaph_5GHM50QvP2WpJjyNQM3yn31B03xd_Q7cVXpABv6tmPjtL Criminology on Trump] and [https://www.routledge.com/Indicting-the-45th-President-Boss-Trump-the-GOP-and-What-We-Can-Do-About-the-Threat-to-American-Democracy/Barak/p/book/9781032454771?srsltid=AfmBOoqRkFoBRGmy90Uc67LbTWnFauEFxNYhPKWE5JboHRkmj3WidBwg Indicting the 45th president Boss Trump, the GOP, and what we can do about the threat to American democracy]. Look for academic reviews of texts like these to contextualize them in academic literature; I find writing a Wikipedia article based on the reviews helpful to share such research with other editors and ensure NPOV. If I haven't responded in a few days, ping me. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 14:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == Lead cleanup move third para in lead to &quot;First Presidency&quot; section == I think the lead in general needs a very thorough cleanup, for example the entire third paragraph, starting with: &quot;In his first term, Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, funded expansion of the Mexico–United States border wall...&quot; Should probably just be moved to the &quot;First Presidency&quot; section... These are things he did while he was in office for his first term so I would think that is the section where they belong rather than contributing to the bloat in the lead. We have mention of racism and sexism in the second paragraph preceding this one, so I don't think it is appropriate to go into discussion of his policies that reflect this in the lead, but are better left to be considered in the article body per my brief understanding of [[MOS:LEAD]], [[MOS:INTRO]] and [[WP:LEADLENGTH]] &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 23:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC) :The lead absolutely requires a description of the policies he implemented as president. It doesn't &quot;contribute to bloat&quot; because it is one of the core features of his biography, this article, and the lead of any article on a U.S. president (or leader of any country). The details can be debated, but pretty much everything mentioned is important. If anything is bloat in the current lead, it is instead sentences such as &quot;He and his businesses have been involved in more than 4,000 legal actions, including six business bankruptcies&quot; (see [[#Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead|my proposal to remove this]] above), or perhaps the exact details on his indictments (which as commentators have noted [https://www.vox.com/donald-trump/383152/donald-trump-criminal-indictments-supreme-court-reelected] are now basically dead) and civil liabilities. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC) ::That is a fair point - do you think it requires such an in-depth of a discussion about those policies though? The business and legal actions / bankruptcies I agree should be looked at, I think maybe cut down or removed and left for the body? These things happen all the time with businesses. I also think the exact details of his indictments could be removed and left for the body - I think mention of them should stay in the lead as a summary of the body, but as a whole I do not believe the specific details are lead appropriate and should be left for later on in the article &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 00:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::If we want to trim down that section of the lead, it should probably done to the list of things he did in response to COVID, or the part about Kim Jong Un and North Korea, since nothing substantial came of that. The parts besides those are too important to cut, in my opinion. I will note that there are other things that had real effects which are currently absent and could be added, such as the [[USMCA]] or [[Abraham Accords]]. There's also nothing about the [[Operation Warp Speed]] or the [[CARES Act]], which some editors have mentioned in [[#Can we add some positive things about his presidency to this article?|this discussion]] above. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 00:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::A &quot;discussion&quot; involving two editors that lasted 91 minutes and you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1257055949&amp;oldid=1257054027 claim that a consensus has appeared to emerge]? [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::No, I was not referring to this thread, but [[#Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead|this one]] above. I believe that a fairly clear consensus has emerged there. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 17:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::My apology, hadn't seen that one. Will respond there. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 20:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{tq|These things happen all the time with businesses}}: does the majority of reliable sources say so? Not to my knowledge, and we have many sources to the contrary. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) == Biggest Political Comeback In US History == He staged the single biggest comeback in US Political History as quoted by Newsweek, CNN and others (they agreed greater than Nixon's in 1968) achieving the 2nd highest popular vote totals ever including a record amount of support from minority voters (Black, Hispanic, Jewish, Asian) than any other Republican in history. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 08:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :So what do you want us to say? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::State the facts, they are written directly below the Topic Header. You can expand upon it if you wish by including the final official numbers for minority and popular vote totals but those will be another week or so away. Regardless of the timeline, he's already achieved both facts stated above about the popular vote and the minority vote. He's also achieved 2 out of the top 3 largest popular vote totals ever recorded in American history. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 11:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::Do you have any RS that say this was the &quot;Biggest Political Comeback In US History&quot;? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::of course, I'm not sure how to link articles on here but if you Google &quot;Newsweek How Donald Trump Pulled Off the Greatest Comeback in Political History&quot; it will show the article written by Carlo Versano from 1 week ago. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 11:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::This would fail [[wp:v]] for your suggestion (clickbait titles are not RS). There is also here an issue of [[wp:undue]]. We can (at best say) &quot;according the Newsweek he pulled off the biggest political comeback in modern US history&quot;. I am unsure, that this improves our article. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Sure, another article you can Google (sorry about no links) is &quot;Daily Express 8 greatest political comebacks in history: from Trump and Farage to Churchill and Lenin.&quot; Again, the topic header stated US Political Comebacks. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Sure, what? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::CNN &quot;How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback&quot; article from November 6th also. There are many more articles from mainstream sources stating this again and again. That would be 3 direct, seperate resources reiterating the Topic Header. You could say, &quot;according to many sources, Donald Trump pulled off the biggest comeback in US political history.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Popular vote total is trivial since as the population grows, the number is higher and higher. A more accurate measure would be % of the popular vote which Trump did not earn a significant majority of when compared to prior presidents like Reagan or F.D.R. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 11:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::I wouldn't consider it trivial, there's never an infinite expansion of populations. Look at China, South Korea, Japan, etc. Many countries are shrinking in demographics. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 11:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::The 2024 population is estimated to be 24 million higher than the 2020 population which is higher than the 2016 population.... Pretty much every election cycle prior has had more eligible voters. Having a larger percentage of the country support someone is more important than simply having the most. If F.D.R. won today by the same margin he did in 1936, it would be almost 90 million people. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 11:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::By that logic it sounds like there should've been another 10+ million more total votes this election cycle than in 2020 but the fact is there wasn't. The truth is, Trump has won 2 of the top 3 total popular vote counts in history, and also defeated 2 Democratic candidates in a single election cycle. That's very relevant, and factual. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Not if there's lower turnout which is what happened this time around. He never ran against Biden in the general election so it isnt factual to say he defeated Biden. He only ran against and defeated Kamala Harris. Biden probably would've lost anyways but that's simply speculation, not fact. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::if he was running against him up until 2 months from the election and then dropped out because of a soft coup caused by his disastrous debate performance (and terrible polling numbers), that would be defeating a candidate, 2 to be exact. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 12:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::We aren't going to state this because this is not what reliable sources say. [[User:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200&quot;&gt;Noah&lt;/b&gt;]], [[BBA#BSBA|BSBA]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Hurricane Noah|&lt;b style=&quot;color:#ff0000&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Propaganda isn't 'reliable sources.' Biden continued his campaign after one of the worst debate performances in modern history and afterwards still continued to state he was continuing his campaign, until many Democratic donors, former and current House of Representatives and Senators demanded he quit. That would be a soft coup, especially withholding campaign finances to force him out. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 13:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::[https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/06/politics/how-donald-trump-won/index.html How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback], CNN. Here's an excerpt, &quot;Millions of Americans, including pivotal voters in Midwest and Sun Belt battlegrounds, cast ballots that clinched Trump’s historic comeback — one that promises to reshape American politics for the foreseeable future.&quot; ::::::::(To new editors, you can make a link like the above by writing: &lt;nowiki&gt;[https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/06/politics/how-donald-trump-won/index.html How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback] &lt;/nowiki&gt;, i.e. put the link, then space, then the title, all in a pair of brackets.) ::::::::[[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 13:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::This would broadly fall under [[WP:OR]] I would think, which is not allowed. At Wikipedia, we follow what [[WP:RS]] reports &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 21:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :My suggestion would be &quot;noted by media as one of the greatest political comebacks in American history.&quot; to the end of the sentence about the victory. I don't think it can go unmentioned, it is a very notable point in his political career, and also helps balance out the lead a little. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Wikipedia is not a headline [[Special:Contributions/68.57.163.100|68.57.163.100]] ([[User talk:68.57.163.100|talk]]) 03:56, 22 November 2024 (UTC) I am now out of this with a confirmed no to the suggested edit, as what we seem to have is [[wp:or]] based upon various sources that do not actually say it was the biggest comeback in US history. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Should be stated as &quot;one of the greatest&quot; anyway, stating it is &quot;the biggest&quot; outright would be fairly contentious. We typically apply this same nomenclature to great sportspersons e.g. [[Lionel Messi]]. It can't really go unmentioned entirely though, it is very widely sourced by [[WP:RSPSOURCES|major, reliable outlets]], and is a major point in his career. Lead reads as incomplete without it. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC) [[WP:NOTOPINION]]: unless you provide reliable sources supporting your opinions, you're wasting your and our time. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 14:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/06/trump-presidential-win-comeback/ Trump’s win is his greatest resurrection in a career of comebacks], Washington Post. &quot;Trump’s political revival, unparalleled in U.S. history, follows a long pattern in his life of seemingly insurmountable, self-inflicted catastrophes followed by shocking rebounds.&quot; :[https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly2818j7rko How Trump pulled off an incredible comeback], BBC : &quot;This is surely the most dramatic comeback in US political history.&quot; : [https://gazette.com/news/wex/greatest-comeback-here-s-how-trump-stacks-up-in-white-house-history/article_20127ec4-7bd2-55e8-bfe0-89fd54413e34.html Greatest comeback? Here’s how Trump stacks up in White House history], Denver Gazette. &quot;President-elect Donald Trump pulled off what many are saying is the greatest political comeback in American history by winning a second non-consecutive term despite a felony conviction and the stain of Jan. 6.&quot; :Also, please see the Wikipedia guideline, [[Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers]] and policy [[Wikipedia:Civility]]. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 16:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :[https://nypost.com/2024/11/06/opinion/trump-the-colossus-comeback-king-of-american-politics/ Trump the ‘colossus’ is the comeback king of American politics] NY Post. &quot;We are in the midst of the greatest political comeback in American history — which follows, by eight years, the greatest political stunt in American history.&quot; :[https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2024/11/politics/trump-election-comeback-cnnphotos/ Donald Trump pulled off the ultimate comeback. See how we got here] CNN.&quot;Despite a felony conviction, two attempts on his life and rhetoric that would have surely sunk any other political campaign, he has completed the ultimate comeback.&quot; :[https://www.newsweek.com/trump-just-staged-biggest-political-comeback-american-history-opinion-1861260 Trump Just Staged the Biggest Political Comeback in American History] Newsweek.&quot;You are witnessing the greatest comeback in American political history. :The previous greatest comeback was by Richard Nixon, who lost his race for President in 1960, only to win decisively in 1968 and again in a 1972 landslide. After his resignation, he staged yet another extraordinary comeback, becoming the most influential former president America has ever had.&quot; :[https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4975713-donald-trump-greatest-comeback-since-lazarus/ Back from the dead: Donald Trump is America’s political Lazarus] The Hill. &quot;He is the greatest comeback politician in political history.&amp;nbsp;The closest thing to what Donald Trump has pulled off can be found in 1968 with Richard Nixon.&quot; :[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/how-donald-trump-pulled-off-the-greatest-comeback-in-political-history/ar-AA1tALHy How Donald Trump Pulled Off the Greatest Comeback in Political History] Newsweek.&quot;Donald J. Trump completed the greatest political comeback in modern U.S. history in the early hours of Wednesday, claiming enough electoral votes to defeat Vice President Kamala Harris and return to the White House for a second term.&quot; [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 17:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{tq|Propaganda isn't 'reliable sources.}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADonald_Trump&amp;diff=1257142107&amp;oldid=1257142033 That]'s disqualifying right there. Sources Wikipedia accepts as reliable: [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources]]. Four of the five sources you presented here are opinion pieces which are generally not acceptable, and one of them is from January 2024 and referred to his win in the Iowa caucuses as the &quot;biggest political comeback in American history&quot;. CNN's ultimate comeback after having been &quot;temporarily render[ed] [] a pariah in mainstream Republican politics after Biden took office&quot; — I think that means final comeback, not single biggest. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::That something exists does not make it encyclopedic. Print media engages in sensationalism, esp. in headlines, to attract eyeballs and sell subscriptions. The Wikipedia is not that. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC) In a review of what reliable sources emphasised when discussing Trump's win in a thread above ([[Talk:Donald_Trump#c-Rollinginhisgrave-20241113115000-Statistic_and_Grover_Cleveland_in_the_lead|see here]]), one conclusion drawn was that {{tq|from this sample, for RS, the most significant thing about this election was it being a political comeback.}} I would have to look at the sources discussing the win more closely to assess how to write it (historic, biggest, attribute or not etc.), but it should be mentioned in the lede to give [[WP:WEIGHT|due weight]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :NO the, lead is a summary of important parts of our article, at best this would warrant one line in the body. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|Slatersteven}} could you elaborate? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yes (per [[wp:lead]]) &quot;In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. It is located at the beginning of the article, before the table of contents and the first heading. It is not a news-style lead or &quot;lede&quot; paragraph.&quot; it only goes in the lead if it is a major part of our article. It is hard to see how a throwaway headline can ever be spun out into a major section. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|Slatersteven}} I imagine you think including the fact about being the second president to win non-consecutive terms should be removed on the same basis. Do you agree? I am not opposed to merely including that {{tq|In the 2024 presidential election, Trump defeated the Democratic candidate, incumbent vice president Kamala Harris, winning the popular and electoral college votes.}} ::::I am not sure how to determine if his win should receive more context in the lede than that. If it should, it should be this fact, given that at this time, it is the one RS think is the most significant element of his win. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If it is not in the body it should, not be in the lead, however, I am gonna suggest the fact this is an unconvertible fact, means it has a place in the article. Where as it is debatable if the claim this was historic does. I said I was out of here with a firm no to including this, it remains a no. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::We don't have to describe it as &quot;historic&quot; etc, if that would be UNDUE. Simply &quot;multiple media outlets characterized his win as a political comeback&quot; could work. Whatever we choose &lt;ins&gt;if we choose to include something&lt;/ins&gt; it should a) be in the body, b) reflect the emphasis placed by RS, including reflecting to how RS describe it ''as a political comeback''. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I will also convert vote totals among minority voters (when they're fully counted and considered official) to percentages with a link to the official numbers to show his historic performance among minority voters for a republican candidate. This will add some balance to the sensationalized, prevailing media narrative of DJT's supporters being &quot;white supremacist, misogynistic, Nazi, etc, etc&quot; garbage they continue to spew forth while also showing a growing realignment of political bases within the parties. I can add this to whatever section it would fit best in to show a bit more fairness or balance to the article/page. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 09:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :IP, Yes it was indeed the biggest political comeback in US history. Would support a write-up of it, in the page. Afterall, it's only an opinion (also) that Trump is (for the moment, at least) considered the worst president in US history. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 13:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC) Users need to read [[wp:lead]], the lead is not there for emphasis it is a summary of our article. If it aint in the body it aint going in the lead, and one line can't be summarized with one line. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Then let's remove the election victory as a whole, and his being the second president elected to non-consecutive terms, as they're both only discussed in one line in the body... It's a highly notable point in his political career that is widely agreed upon by major, reliable sources. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::BY all means remove them if you wish. But two wrongs do not make a right.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::[[WP:LEAD]] doesn't even support your argument. &quot;As in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources.&quot; This is a major point in establishing his political notability, and widely supported by reliable, published sources. Many of the points in this lead are also concisely noted in the body, exactly how this article is meant to be written given the extent of his career. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 12:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Try the first line &quot;In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. &quot; and &quot; (latter on) &quot;Significant information should not appear in the lead, apart from basic facts, if it is not covered in the remainder of the article, although not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text.&quot;, This is not a &quot;basic fact&quot;. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::It is covered in the body, and should be expanded to include other sources. It is a basic fact if firmly agreed upon by reliable sources. [https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2024/11/politics/trump-election-comeback-cnnphotos/ CNN] [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-wins-2nd-term-historic-return-white/story?id=115358710 ABC] [https://apnews.com/article/election-day-trump-harris-white-house-83c8e246ab97f5b97be45cdc156af4e2 AP] [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/czxrnw5qrprt BBC] Keep in mind I'm not agreeing with the &quot;biggest&quot; wording. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 13:03, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{tq|It is a basic fact if firmly agreed upon by reliable sources}} see [[WP:VNOT|Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I'm not using that to argue its inclusion; it should be included because it's one of the most notable points in his political career, such to the point where it should even be in the lead. Their point was it was {{tq|not a basic fact}}, and thus should not be included, which is simply false given that many reliable sources disagree. [[User:Mb2437|Mb2437]] ([[User talk:Mb2437|talk]]) 13:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC) So again, a firm no. Time for an RFC? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Could we give this a bit more time before we escalate? I will have a go at working on the body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 13:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC) == FORUM == There has been a lot of [[WP:NOTFORUM]] vio going on here of late. Including a number of experienced editors. I'm curious: *Do these editors know they are violating policy? *If so, can they explain themselves please? *What, if anything, should be done about this? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :*I think what we maybe seeing is good faith efforts to deal with requests that are not policy compliant themselves. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :Go [[WP:TROUT]] them or something &lt;/sarcasm&gt;. It’s incredibly unlikely anyone is going to be sanctioned by an admin for anything short of uncivil behavior. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 12:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::I must have missed when somebody was sanctioned for uncivil behavior without a trip to [[WP:AE]]. But I'm not looking for sanctions.{{pb}}I mean, we sometimes collapse NOTFORUM vios, but that's not really practical when it's interspersed with constructive non-vios every fourth comment. Even if I did that, I'd look like a self-appointed Talk Page Sheriff unless I had help from a few others. There's just too much of it going on, and I know better than to piss off ten experienced editors at the same time. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 14:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yea, that's kind of what I meant, I've never seen anyone sanctioned at AE for NOTFORUM (that wasn't a blatent civility issue as well). I digress though, you kind of highlighted why there's not much we can do. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 17:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Tell ya what. I'll start posting on user talk pages and see if that has any beneficial effect. I could use some help with that, by anybody who cares about keeping this page functional. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) I am moving discussion of [[WP:FORUM|FORUM]] and [[WP:BITING|BITING]] to this more relevant thread. Context is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump#c-104.230.247.132-20241113115500-Slatersteven-20241113114700 an IP apologizing] for not knowing how to link to sources. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC) :Appreciate the help with how to link articles Bob, thank you and sorry to others for not linking directly. [[Special:Contributions/104.230.247.132|104.230.247.132]] ([[User talk:104.230.247.132|talk]]) 13:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::[[WP:NOTFORUM]]: not a help desk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 15:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::It may be [[WP:NOTFORUM]] but its just a small tip in a relevant discussion to help the IP out, its nice to just be helpful sometimes and may encourage them to make an account and be an active participant in [[Wikipedia| the project]]; [[WP:NOBITING]] &lt;span style=&quot;color:purple;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User: Artem P75|'''''Artem'''''...]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;sup&gt;''&lt;span style=&quot;color: #0B0080;text-shadow:4px 4px 15px blue, -4px -4px 15px blue&quot;&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/span&gt;''&lt;/sup&gt; 21:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Best practice here would be to post a note on their [[WP:UTP|user talk page]] to avoiding BITING and FORUM. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 22:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC) :::::There was a discussion of this at the policy talk page in the section [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&amp;oldid=1257755875#4._Discussion_forums Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#4. Discussion forums]. It appears it is OK to make a brief, related, helpful technical suggestion on the article talk page for the benefit of various editors. Cheers, [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 14:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC) == Latter half of the opening paragraph == Does anybody have a &lt;u&gt;formal&lt;/u&gt; proposal for the second half of the opening paragraph? That's all the info relating to the 2024 election results? It's been ten days &amp; counting, so we need a stable version in place, between now &amp; the inauguration day. PS - For goodness sake, &lt;u&gt;don't&lt;/u&gt; add &quot;current&quot; or &quot;currently&quot; before (if included) &quot;president-elect&quot;, as it's a useless descriptive. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 04:50, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I wholeheartedly support forming a consensus to put an end to all the back-and-forth (stabilize). Since it would be a temporary consensus as you say, it wouldn't need a consensus list item, just an archived discussion (e.g., this one) that we could point to in a DO NOT CHANGE hidden comment. No opinion on content. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 06:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC) == Biography organization == Hi {{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}, I saw you moved the discussion of religion and family back to &quot;Early life and education&quot;. I don't think there are any good options here, as the article is not structed as a biography. The article to compare to would be [[Ronald Reagan]], as he is the most recent president that is a [[WP:FA|featured article]] (and helpfully he also had a prominent pre-political career). Some thoughts on reorganization to better meet this I'd like to hear your perspective on: * Break up the section [[Donald Trump#Wealth]], placing most into Business career where it is relevant. * Break up religion paragraph into the bits relevant to early life, and then a brief discussion in presidency discussing the relevance to his relationship to religion as president. * [[Ronald Reagan#Marriages and children]] is placed a lot more chronologically. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 18:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I'll get back to this tomorrow, too complicated for my addled brain today. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 19:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC) :I'm generally not too fond of &quot;one size fits all&quot;, including {{tq|conform[ing] to others on Wikipedia, for example Donald Trump's two predecessors, Barack Obama and Joe Biden}}. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=763156990 This is the edit] that moved &quot;Personal life&quot; to the top of the body on February 1, 2017. I wasn't editing here at the time, briefly looked for discussions in the archive but nothing jumped out at me. I never questioned it because it made sense to me: family, wealth, tabloid and later media personality — it's all interwoven and difficult to separate into business/profession/political positions (whatever the subject is notable for) and personal life with spouse(s)/kids, hobbies, etc. Seven years later one editor shows up, questions it, and it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1257458585&amp;oldid=1257457258 gets fixed] a few minutes later (see &quot;MOS Layout&quot;, above). Good process — no dillydallying with time-consuming discussions. :[[MOS:SNO]] also says: {{tq|Because of the diversity of subjects it covers, Wikipedia has no general standard or guideline regarding the order of section headings within the body of an article.}} [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 17:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :As I said in the edit summary, Trump's personal details have been part of his public persona for more than 40 years and shouldn't relegated to the end of his bio like an afterthought. I moved them back to the top of the body, along with the &quot;Racial views&quot; and &quot;Misogyny/sexual misconduct&quot; sections that had been newly added to the &quot;Personal life&quot; section. I agree that these two sections also deal with views and conduct predating his first term as president and continued throughout his political career. The &quot;Public image&quot; section is gone, so there's no other logical place for these sections. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::I'm still thinking about the best way to address this. I will narrowly respond in two ways: ::*Racial views and misogyny could be folded under a s section 2 heading #Prejudice. ::*There is an ongoing discussion at [[Talk:Public image of Donald Trump#Article scope]] which is relevant and I hope you'll participate. It's responding to me cutting down the article 20% of its size ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Public_image_of_Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1256508735 seen here]) based on the principles laid out at the top of the discussion. ::[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::Disagree, Space4Time3Continuum2x. I object to organizing this article based on your personal preferences. Please read all of [[MOS:SNO]]. Exceptions are given and this isn't one of them. Why didn't you contribute to the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_176#MOS_Layout MOS Layout] thread? -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've spent a bit of time thinking through my objection to commenting further at this time, and it has been resolved. Susan sums up my thoughts here. We can reopen to the MOS Layout thread before it's archived to discuss further or simply restore. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 21:00, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Already gone.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1257834791] &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:05, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::My mistake, thanks for the correction. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 21:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::{{u|Mandruss}}, is there a procedure to restore the MOS Layout thread? I'll assume that Space4Time3Continuum2x was occupied elsewhere and didn't get a chance to weigh in. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 13:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::No procedure, just do it (using copy-and-paste) or ask someone to do it. I did it. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{tq|based on your personal preferences}} — the layout predates my first edit of this article by more than a year. Considering the number of editors who have collaborated on this page, there have been astoundingly few objections to this particular feature (none, until now, that I recall). The full text of MOS:SNO is Wiki-vague, as usual: {{tq|Because of the diversity of subjects it covers, Wikipedia has no general standard or guideline regarding the order of section headings within the body of an article. The usual practice is to order body sections based on the precedent of similar articles. For exceptions, see Specialized layout below.}} No general standard or guideline vs. usual practice. I think you may have misunderstood the &quot;exceptions&quot;. They are types of articles where layouts are {{tq|generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow '''though occasional exceptions may apply'''.}} Bolding added by me, i.e., even for these exeptions, where editors are advised to &quot;attempt to follow the generally accepted standard&quot;, &quot;occasional exceptions may apply&quot;. And about a precedent you cited in &quot;MOS Layout&quot;: [[Barack Obama]] has an &quot;Early life and career&quot; section with &quot;Family and personal life&quot; following &quot;Education&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::By the time I saw the &quot;MOS Layout&quot; thread, it had already been closed saying Rolling &quot;fixed&quot; the flagged grave violation of — uh — usual practice within minutes. Bold edit, I challenged, needs to be discussed. I've already commented here, don't see any point in reopening &quot;MOS Layout&quot;. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Space4Time3Continuum2x}} :::::* [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=763156990 The edit] that moved up &quot;Personal life&quot; is from a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Atvica blocked] possible sockpuppet. :::::* Donald Trump is a human being like everybody else. What section is it that you want to front load? :::::* We have some leeway. Do you want to restore a §Public image section? :::::* We had an objection just [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258150213&amp;oldid=1258122470 yesterday] to starting with §Personal details. :::::* Right you are that MOS:SNO is vague. But it's an indication of why most Wikipedia biographies begin with §Early life. More examples: [[Louis XIV]], [[Elon Musk]], [[Mao Zedong]], [[Nelson Mandela]], [[Adolf Hitler]], [[Benito Mussolini]], [[Vladimir Lenin]], [[Charles de Gaulle]], [[Joe Biden]] and [[Ronald Reagan]]. [[George W. Bush]] and [[Barack Obama]] both have §Personal life higher than I'd like, and they both begin with §Early life and career. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::*I don't have anything to add here beyond that we still have a section for Public image: Assessments#Public. Content was moved out of #Public image for the reasons laid out in most depth at [[Talk:Public image of Donald Trump#Article scope]]; I earnestly hope you both could weigh in at that discussion as it needs more eyes and as you can see it affects this article. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I looked at the 10 or so edits the alleged sockpuppet made at this article. They all improved the formatting or fixed poor wording, e.g., replacing &quot;2000 presidential candidacy&quot; with &quot;2000 presidential campaign&quot;. The [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258150213&amp;oldid=1258122470 &quot;objection&quot;] replaced &quot;Personal details&quot; with &quot;Early and personal life&quot; — I can live with that. The editor did not object to the positioning of the material I restored to that section at the top of the body. I don't know what to make of {{tq|Trump is a human being}} and {{tq|front load}}. Are you accusing me of something? {{tq|both have §Personal life higher than I'd like}} — sounds like {{tq|personal preferences}} to me. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}? May we close the restored MOS Layout thread? -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::&lt;small&gt;{{ping|Rollinginhisgrave}} No, there's no Public image section, only a Public subsection of Assessment. I won't be contributing to your thread on Article scope which discussed a narrow issue (orange skin). I am spread too thin over several threads. Thank you. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)&lt;/small&gt; ::::{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}, nobody is accusing you of anything. ::::*Your personal preferences show (&quot;I can live with that&quot;) same as me (I don't plan to edit [[Barack Obama]] or [[George W. Bush]] to match my prefs.). ::::*May we close the restored MOS Layout thread? ::::*To answer your question, Trump is just a man, and he merits a biography that's no different from everybody else's. (Here's the dictionary definition of [https://www.dictionary.com/browse/front-load front load].) I'm just asking you, what sections do you want to come early? Do you want to add a §Public image section? -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 18:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I've changed Assessment#Public to Assessment#Public image in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1258448886 this diff]. &lt;small&gt;{{u|SusanLesch}} It's on me cutting 80% of the article, orange skin is just an example. No fuss if you are spread too thin, what you have been able to spare is appreciated.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}}, I removed the Religion section because it was word for word the same as a paragraph in Early life. If Religion is one of the sections you want front-loaded then I'll move the first one down (it has all the original refs). I asked for the MOS Layout thread to be archived. Can you please answer which sections you want to appear at the top? Right now we look bad with &quot;Early and personal life: Early life, education, family&quot; which is empty and repetitive. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 19:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|Space4Time3Continuum2x}} at this time, we have two editors in favor of the rearranged section order and one against. This is a very very weak majority, especially in light of the long-standing page consensus. How would you like us to proceed? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC) == Proposal to rename [[Racial views of Donald Trump]] == There is currently a proposal to rename [[Racial views of Trump]] at {{slink|Talk:Racial views of Donald Trump|Changing the title|nopage=y}}. Editors here are invited to participate: this will impact the section heading &quot;Racial views&quot; in this article per [[WP:SUMMARY|summary style]] [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC) == Recommended biography == Can anyone here recommend a Trump biography? My plan is to read one good biography. Looking at [[Bibliography_of_Donald_Trump#About_the_books_about_Trump|the bibliography]], maybe ''[[What Were We Thinking]]'', or one by Philip Rucker and Carol Leonnig, Jonathan Karl, Bob Woodward, Jennifer Mercieca, Maggie Haberman, Fred Trump III, ? Other than a historical bias learned from my mother, I have no horse in this race, and am trying to keep an open mind. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 14:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :See [[WP:NOTFORUM]] [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 17:05, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::Pardon me, [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]]. I daresay this article comes up short and I'm offering to help. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump#Books Book sources] are an impoverished list given the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bibliography_of_Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1257626144#About_Trump number of books about the subject]. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:12, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::Taking my marbles and going home. I settled on Mr. Lozada's ''[[What Were We Thinking]]''. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::&lt;s&gt;That's fine, and we appreciate your efforts, but a Wikipedia talk page just isn't the place for this&lt;/s&gt; [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 17:34, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::{{u|Farkle Griffen}} I think Susan was inquiring as to the quality (reliable, comprehensive) of high-quality sourcing on the subject for the purposes of editing, which is an important function of talk pages. Perhaps Susan could have rewritten to be clearer as to her intent, but in cases where intent is unclear to us, it's best to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] (which can involve asking an editor for clarification of they believe their comment is on topic). ::::{{u|SusanLesch}} I don't think ''[[What Were We Thinking]]'' is a biography in the strictest sense. From my similarly limited familiarity with sourcing on the subject, it seems like biography, particularly pre-presidency, will have to be sourced primarily to biographies 2017 and before such as ''[[Trump Revealed]]''. ::::For a retrospective assessment of the Trump presidency and afterwards, which is necessary for assessing what reliable sources put emphasis on, the best sources I have seen aren't necessarily exclusively about Trump, but have a chapter on broad-strokes of his presidency. For domestic policy for example, see ''[https://www.routledge.com/The-Presidency-and-Domestic-Policy-Comparing-Leadership-Styles-FDR-to-Biden/Genovese-Belt-Lammers/p/book/9780367508746? The Presidency and Domestic Policy: Comparing Leadership Styles, FDR to Biden]''. I'm interested to read ''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv201xj05 The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: A First Historical Assessment]'', but reading reviews on such a book will be particularly important: as I &lt;del&gt;read them&lt;/del&gt;&lt;ins&gt;read them (books)&lt;/ins&gt; I'll create stubs for them to share findings with other editors like I have with ''[[Cocoa (book)|Cocoa]]'' and ''[[Unsavory Truth]]''. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:01, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:09, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::::That's a fair point. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 20:11, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::{{u|Farkle Griffen}}, sorry for the misunderstanding. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Questions for you, [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]]. First, the book sources seemed to be slim pickings given the number of books about Trump. I appreciate the work that editors have done using Kranish &amp; Fisher, which does appear to have been helpful. I am comfortable with Leonnig, Woodward, Haberman, and am interested in [[Jennifer Mercieca]] because it looks like she studied Trump's speech patterns. Decided on Lozada because, for one thing, I don't wish to become a scholar of Trump. Lozada is a Pulitzer-winner who was able to sort through the 150 or more books about Trump. I could be mistaken easily, and it would help to have a guide. Don't you agree his perspective would be useful? Is the Zelizer book you mention here a collection of essays/papers? Another good way to get a birds eye view. Sorry I can't invest the time in something like ''The Presidency and Domestic Policy''. One other criterion: if any of the bibliography list is available free on the Internet Archive that would be a selling point. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::{{u|SusanLesch}} The book sources are certainly slim. I expanded the use of Kranish &amp; Fisher a few days ago as a proof of concept in replacing news articles with books, but I will revise. If we're covering the presidency, there's two elements of sources to prioritise: retrospective and [[WP:SCHOLARSHIP|academic]]. ::::::::*[[Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America|Haberman]] is interesting, I haven't read about it. Might be the best for biographical details. ::::::::*Mercieca is interesting as well; we're a few years out so might be good to read recent reviews. ::::::::*[[What Were We Thinking|Lozada]] would be useful to the page, but I think it serves a different purpose to what you identified in your first two sentences. ::::::::*Yes, Zelizer is a collection of essays; I'm most looking forward to any introductory material which attempts to synthesise. ::::::::*''The Presidency and Domestic Policy'' would probably actually be the easiest, since it is one chapter which is relevant (the one on Trump). ::::::::I'm sc(k)eptical much will be available on the Internet Archive; it's been cut down mercilessly recently. If you need access to a source, email me. Hopefully I'll be able to construct an annotated source list over the next few weeks. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 07:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Thank you! I'm leaning to Haberman because you thought it sounds interesting. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 13:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}}P.S. Suggest we don't underestimate the Internet Archive. I went through the first [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_Donald_Trump#About_Trump half of the bibliography] and found these. Most of the others are available only to persons with print disabilities. *Never Enough: Donald Trump and the Pursuit of Success *The case against Trump *Where's Trump? Find Donald Trump in his race to the White House *Man Enough? Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, and the Politics of Presidential Masculinity *The Little Book of Trumpisms *Trump: A Graphic Biography *If Only They Didn't Speak English *Big Agenda: President Trump's Plan to Save America *Choosing Donald Trump: God, Anger, Hope, and Why Christian Conservatives Supported Him *In America: Tales from Trump Country *Trump: Anatomy of a Monstrosity *Trump This! The Life and Times of Donald Trump, An Unauthorized Biography -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 17:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC) :Thanks for doing this, very helpful. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC) ::Unfortunately our luck ran out after the oldest 50 books. The rest of the list found only: ::*in Arabic only: Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House ::*audio: Donald Trump v. The United States ::So overall I tend to agree with you about the Internet Archive's utility for this project. Maybe something will help. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 00:40, 18 November 2024 (UTC) == Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8 == {{atop|This is involved closure, which is permitted when consensus is sufficiently clear.{{pb}}Consensus to cancel [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 8. Currently 8&amp;ndash;3 Support and it would take a dramatic trend reversal to change the outcome. Closure subject to challenge by reversion, as always. Barring that...{{pb}}Eligible for manual archival after this time tomorrow, and I will change the consensus list. The article should not be changed until then. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC)}} Item 8 requires including that &quot;Trump was the first U.S. President without prior military or government service&quot; in the lead. A LOT has happened since 2016 (when this item was added) that deserves mention in the lead, and in proportion, this detail is very minor. Currently this random trivia takes up about as much space the entire mention of Covid-19. In the same vein as my previous post, we need to start making room in the lead for the soon-to-come paragraph about his 2nd term. Including minor trivia like this is not the precedent that should be set. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 00:37, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' per proposer. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Comment''' The lede should reflect the emphasis the body places. Do you think the coverage in the lede misrepresents this emphasis? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:Continuing with the example I gave, this only seems to be mentioned for one sentence in the body, and only in passing, whereas Covid-19 takes up several sections, and has a dedicated main article. *:Similarly with nearly every other one-sentence fact currently mentioned in the lead. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::The question of weight emphasis is not on the sentence, but what the sentence is summarizing. Here it is [[Donald Trump#Election to the presidency]]. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:11, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::Are you suggesting one body sentence provides sufficient weight for inclusion in the lead? If so, you might want to re-think that. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:17, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::The questions we are asking are a) does #Election to the presidency receive enough emphasis to be covered in the lede, b) if so, how can we best summarize it while giving appropriate emphasis? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::Are they? I thought the question here is: &quot;Should current consensus 8 be canceled?&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::::Yes, as if the answer to those questions creates something similar to consensus 8, the answer is no, if it doesn't, the answer is yes. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 02:44, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::Obviously I lack the intelligence to comprehend that comment, but I'm guessing you're unhelpfully mixing issues that could be addressed separately, expanding scope, overcomplicating, or something. I responded to the question in the section heading and that was enough for me. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::::::If my comments are incomprehensible that reflects on my communication skills and perhaps on my thoughts being incoherent. I want to make sure when we decide what goes in the lede, we are going beyond what editors personally think is significant. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::As to the six words in question, it looks to me that error was made in 2016, and by your own reasoning we should correct it by removal. There is not enough in the body to justify inclusion in the lead, and that inclusion was the result of the &quot;editorial judgment&quot; dysfunction we've talked about elsewhere. What's the problem? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::Sure, I get that the dysfunction continues in this very thread, but that won't be changed quickly if ever. At least it's looking like the end result will be the correct one, even if the means for getting there was wrong. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 03:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::::::::As I note below, I agree. This text does not appear to meet the standards for inclusion so should be removed. Your addendum is interesting. I think it can be changed, at least among the regulars, even if it requires me being a pain. I would have just commented &quot;'''Support''': does not reflect emphasis placed in body&quot; if I thought having editors justify their support beyond editorial judgement wouldn't pressure them to improve their argumentative rigor in the future. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::::::::{{tq|I think it can be changed, at least among the regulars, even if it requires me being a pain.}} One can dream. Being a much larger meta issue, it should probably be a separate discussion. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::I'd say the very next sentence is handling that well enough. *:::His lack of military experience doesn't seem to be the focus of that section, or the main article linked. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::Agreed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC) * '''Support''' does not seem like something of real significance, certainly not enough for the lead &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|...Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' It seemed important at the time but the lede now has far too many more important things to cover and not much space to do it in.[[User:LM2000|LM2000]] ([[User talk:LM2000|talk]]) 02:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' Agree that it is not nearly as important now as it was eight years ago. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 02:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' as (as far as I can tell) its still true, and in fact will still be true when he next takes office, thus is still current and relevant. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC) **I'm not opposed to its inclusion, provided some expansion in the body, but could you expand on how it follows from the first part of your sentence that this is still relevant? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ***Because it still remains the case that even in his second term he will still never have served in the military. Given how much false imagery of him there is in 8unifiorm it might well be something people will be looking for, his military service. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC) ****I think the stronger framing for inclusion is around his status/image as an &quot;outsider&quot; politician. Other comments above effectively respond to whether &quot;it still remains the case&quot; is a sufficient justification for retention. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 12:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:Are you suggesting being true is enough to justify being in the lead? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 16:05, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::No, I am saying that is still, remains true, and is still as important as it was 8 years ago. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::So, eliminating the part of your argument that applies equally to hundreds of other things omitted from the lead, it's based entirely on your personal opinion of importance. You think that might be influenced by your natural human biases? We all have them, you know. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::No its based on nothing has changed since we added it. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 19:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::Nothing except the passage of eight years during which more stuff was added to the lead, his re-election which means much more stuff will be added to the lead in the coming four years, and the growing consensus that the lead has been too long for some time. I wouldn't call that &quot;nothing&quot;. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::::I mean technically, in his second term he will have served in government prior to election... as the president in 2016 &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|...Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support'''. Good choice for preemptive shortening of the lead. Time to look for more of these. Please include the statement somewhere else in the article. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 13:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' - Trump is an important figure not for the many things he did in office, but for how he has broadly affected the politics of the United States. That he was the first real 'celebrity president' is a necessary piece of the story. What should be cut back to make the lead shorter is the details of his first presidency: individual acts and executive orders he signed or agreements he withdrew the US from isn't really the point of the biography: this could be summed up in words to the effect of &quot;Trump's foreign policy was characterized as unpredictable&quot;, &quot;Trump attempted to lower legal and illegal immigration&quot;, etc. Getting caught up in individual details like that misses the woods for the trees: zooming in on microcosms of larger policy patterns (such as the wall, travel ban and family separations to show immigration policy, or the trade war, denuclearisation and treaty withdrawals to show his foreign policy) makes the lead too long and doesn't really present anything important. Trump is responsible for a broad political realignment and societal change, which is what we should focus on in the lead: not &quot;he signed the Tax Cuts &amp; Jobs Act&quot; or &quot;he built The Wall&quot;. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 17:13, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:Ideally, we should just have one paragraph for both presidencies by 2029, summing up What Happened in broad strokes. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 17:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:This seems like a large change in focus compared to what the consensus has become over the years. I think that needs to be a separate discussion. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 19:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::Yes, but it isn't a proposal. What it is are the reasons why I think that the item above is the wrong thing to scrap out of a paragraph which has more obviously cuttable things. That Trump was the most inexperienced man ever to become president is a key part of his bio, far more so than the individual policies he pushed in term one that I'd gun for to reduce the lead's length. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 20:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *:::Perhaps you can make a separate draft article for the lead to clarify feasibility? Because if I'm understanding you correctly, that seems like it would force us to minimize important detail, and lead to constant, massive edit wars over how to present his story. This article especially. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 20:21, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *::::I've banged out a quick example here. Don't nitpick it: it's not a proposal, but an illustration of the general direction I think the article should take. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 18:30, 19 November 2024 (UTC){{collapsetop|Example lead}} {{Infobox officeholder| name = Donald Trump| image = President-elect Donald Trump, Wednesday, November 13, 2024, on the South Portico of the White House (cropped).jpg&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE the picture without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 1. --&gt;| alt = Official White House presidential portrait. Head shot of Trump smiling in front of the U.S. flag, wearing a dark blue suit jacket with American flag lapel pin, white shirt, and light blue necktie. | caption = Trump in 2024| office = 45th &amp; 47th [[President of the United States]]| vicepresident1 = [[Mike Pence]]| term_start1 = January 20, 2017| term_end1 = January 20, 2021| predecessor1 = [[Barack Obama]]| successor1 = Joe Biden| term_start = January 20, 2025| term_end = January 20, 2029| vicepresident = [[JD Vance]] | predecessor = [[Joe Biden]]}} '''Donald John Trump''' (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th and 47th [[president of the United States]] from 2017 to 2021 and from 2025 to 2029.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 50. --&gt; Trump graduated with a [[bachelor's degree]] in economics from the [[University of Pennsylvania]] in 1968. After becoming president of the family real estate business in 1971, he renamed it [[the Trump Organization]]. After a series of bankruptcies in the 1990s, [[#Side ventures|he launched side ventures]], mostly licensing the Trump name. From 2004 to 2015, he produced and hosted the [[reality television]] series ''[[The Apprentice (American TV series)|The Apprentice]]''. In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] and became the [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican Party]]'s nominee, leading to the creation of [[Trumpism]]. Trump won the [[2016 United States presidential election|2016 presidential election]] despite losing the popular vote, becoming the first U.S. president without prior military or government service.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding 6 words without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 8. --&gt; His election and policies [[Protests against Donald Trump|sparked numerous protests]]&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding 7 words without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 20. --&gt;. He lost re-election in [[2020 United States presidential election|2020]] but falsely claimed widespread electoral fraud, [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|attempted to overturn the results]], and facilitated the [[January 6 United States Capitol attack|January 6 Capitol attack]]. He ran again in [[2024 United States presidential election|2024]] and won both the electoral and popular vote, making him one of two U.S. presidents elected to serve non-consecutive terms.{{efn|The other being [[Grover Cleveland]], in [[1884 United States presidential election|1884]] and [[1892 United States presidential election|1892]].}} As president, he attempted to reduce the number of refugees and illegal† immigrants entering the U.S., had a foreign policy which was characterized as unpredictable and inconsistent, appointed three† Supreme Court justices, reacted slowly to the [[COVID-19 pandemic in the United States|COVID-19 pandemic]], and pursued an aggressive trade policy.† Many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, racist, and misogynistic.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus, see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], items 30 and 51. --&gt; He [[#Promotion of conspiracy theories|promoted conspiracy theories]] and [[#False or misleading statements|made many false and misleading statements]] during his campaigns and presidencies, to a degree unprecedented in American politics.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], items 49 and 53. --&gt; In 2024, [[Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York|he was found guilty of falsifying business records]],{{efn|Related to [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|his hush money payment]] to adult film actress [[Stormy Daniels]]}} becoming the first U.S. president convicted of a felony.{{efn|He faced more felony indictments related to [[FBI investigation into Donald Trump's handling of government documents|his mishandling of classified documents]] and interference in the 2020 election.}} He was the only U.S. president to be impeached twice†; the Senate acquitted him in both† cases.{{efn|[[First impeachment of Donald Trump|In 2019]] for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress, and [[Second impeachment of Donald Trump|in 2021]] for incitement of insurrection.}} [[Historical rankings of presidents of the United States|Scholars and historians rank Trump]] as one of the worst presidents in American history.†&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE preceding sentence without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 54. --&gt; {{nbsp}} :{{small|†Subject to change following second term}} {{Notelist-talk}} {{collapsebottom}} *:::::How did this thread morph from a proposal to cancel #8 to a discussion of the general direction the article should take? This kind of scope expansion is rarely helpful. I would've suggested: &quot;Oppose. {{tq|The item above is the wrong thing to scrap out of a paragraph which has more obviously cuttable things.}}&quot; &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:03, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::It's usually helpful to back up opinions with reasons for why you think that way. It's deliberately collapsed so it doesn't get in the way of others. [[User:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty]] ([[User talk:Tim O&amp;#39;Doherty|talk]]) 19:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' per nom. Need to start trimming the lead in prepartion to cover his second term. [[User:Spy-cicle|&lt;span style='color: 4019FF;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;&amp;nbsp;Spy-cicle💥&amp;nbsp;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Spy-cicle#top|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style='color: #1e1e1e;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;'''''Talk'''''?&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 23:43, 18 November 2024 (UTC) *I have no strong opinion on this one. But the mention of protests after his first election 100% is UNDUE in the lead. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:08, 19 November 2024 (UTC) **Agree on protests. They didn't lead anywhere.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 00:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ***So propose that separately. You're off topic here. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:15, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *:I am going to go ahead and say '''Oppose''' for removal of this one. Trump having no prior political experience and being an outsider is central to his brand and movement. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::a) Should him being an outsider also be included in the lede? :::b) [[MOS:LEAD]] says the lede should function as a summary of the body, including reflecting the importance placed on information. This prevents the lead developing separately from the body. Do you think the inclusion of this fact meets this? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Comment''' - It occurs to me that this sentence is not that different from much of the content already removed from the lead ''without objection''. The same arguments about &quot;still important&quot;, &quot;central&quot;, etc., could have been made about a lot of that (and have been in the past). What's different about this one? It's protected by a consensus that precludes BOLD removal. Without that consensus, I think this would have been removed ''without objection''. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *{{Strikethrough|'''Oppose'''. I agree with Tim and R. G. Checkers. Trump posturing himself as an opponent of the Washington elite and career politicians (no matter how disingenuous that actually is) is how he has made it this far as a politician and is relevant to his ongoing re-alignment of U.S. politics along right-wing populist lines. If you need proof, just look at how he's right now filling his cabinet with others who posture as &quot;outsiders&quot; and have no experience. This statement is the easiest way to get this across in the lead.}} — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 20:38, 20 November 2024 (UTC) **The sentence doesn't convey all this, it implies he's incompetent or merely unusual. The sentence should say what you're trying to communicate, e.g. &quot;Key to Trump's appeal is his image as a political outsider.&quot; Moreover, him having an image of an outsider is not mentioned in the body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:47, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ***Actually, your argument convinces me. I change my !vote to '''Support''' removal, as I think the &quot;political outsider&quot; angle is sufficiently conveyed by other parts of the lead (especially identifying his movement as &quot;right-wing populist&quot; in nature). — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ****{{small|Omg, someone was swayed by discussion. Somebody frame that and hang it on the wall! &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC)}} {{abot}} === Process question === We can cancel item 8, or we can supersede it with a new item 68. The difference is that cancellation would merely return the situation to normal BRD process (as if consensus 8 had never existed), while supersession would preclude this lead content without another consensus. Which do we want? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC) To my mind, we could cancel until there are repeated BOLD attempts to re-add this, thereby maybe justifying a superseding consensus. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:15, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Reverting consensus 20 == Bringing two comments down from [[Talk:Donald Trump#Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8]] to a new thread. They are addressing the sentence {{tq|His election and policies sparked numerous protests}} in the lede. I have no strong opinion on this one. But the mention of protests after his first election 100% is UNDUE in the lead. R. G. Checkers talk 00:08, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :Agree on protests. They didn't lead anywhere.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 01:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :'''Support''' The lead in general needs to be trimmed, I think we should focus on the information with the most [[WP:RS]] coverage for the lead. I am not sure how we will determine what constitutes as &quot;enough RS coverage for the lead,&quot; perhaps we will need another topic for this. &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::Some of us think it should be &quot;enough RS coverage for the body&quot; and &quot;enough body coverage for the lead&quot;. Body comes first. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 02:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::I think that would be a good determining factor. I suppose it would then be down to &quot;What constitutes enough body coverage for the lead?&quot; But I am again getting off topic and will leave this for another discussion &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The question is not of volume, but of quality. We need retrospective coverage that puts it into the context of his life/presidency to determine emphasis. And from this, as {{noping|Mandruss}} notes, lead follows body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 03:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' - Clearly UNDUE and maybe even RECENTISM that should have never been in the lead in the first place, and certainly not now. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC) **Could you expand on why you understand this fact is given [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]]? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 04:59, 19 November 2024 (UTC) **:Protests happen for every president. Just because the protest had a more people come does not mean it needs to be I in the lead. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC) **::{{tq|Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources.}} What does your comment have to do with UNDUE? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 21:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC) **:::Look at this sentence instead: {{green|Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the''' depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement''', the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery}} [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC) **::::An article can discuss information in great depth, in a lot of text etc while still maintaining [[WP:NPOV|a neutral point of view]]. The way it can do that is by {{tq|fairly represent[ing] all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources}}. You need to determine the emphasis of reliable sources first: looking at information and thinking &quot;that's a lot of detail [for something like this or otherwise]&quot; is insufficient for determining if it is DUE. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 09:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support removal''' Needs to be significant trimming in the lead to fit in the 2nd term info. The protests against him are less important to cover relative to other infomation in the lead. [[User:Spy-cicle|&lt;span style='color: 4019FF;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;&amp;nbsp;Spy-cicle💥&amp;nbsp;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] [[User talk:Spy-cicle#top|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style='color: #1e1e1e;'&gt;&lt;b&gt;'''''Talk'''''?&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 06:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose''', as I think it's fair to say his latest election has also led to protests. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:54, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. &quot;Other stuff may happen that we may want to include&quot; isn't a rationale for removing. The protests included the largest single-day protest in U.S. history at the time (it's been surpassed by the George Floyd protests in 2020). AFAIK, no other president's election has resulted in protests, especially not with the protesters far outnumbering the spectators at the inauguration. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 18:01, 19 November 2024 (UTC) *:It is mentioned briefly in the body. This is not defining of trump himself. We don't need room for things that are going to happen we need room for things that ''already have happened''. [[User:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #E2062C ;&quot;&gt; ''R. G. Checkers''&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:R. G. Checkers|&lt;b style=&quot;color: #000000;&quot;&gt; talk&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Question''' What has changed to constitute this change? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 04:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *:We (with Farkle Griffen doing most of the heavy lifting) are finally taking on serious lead reduction, essentially raising the DUE bar for the lead. The lead is down 40% from two weeks ago. Under discussion is whether this item still clears the bar. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 07:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support''' the poor [[pussyhat]]s didn't accomplish anything. &amp;ndash;&amp;nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&amp;nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *'''Support'''. A little bit below the threshold of importance for inclusion in the lead. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 20:45, 20 November 2024 (UTC) * '''Support''', not particularly notable. [[User:Irruptive Creditor|Irruptive Creditor]] ([[User talk:Irruptive Creditor|talk]]) 08:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == PEIS revisited, yet again == According to my experimentation, the addition of ~12 typical-sized citations would cause the article to exceed the system-imposed [[WP:PEIS]] limit. When that happens, templates near the bottom of the article start breaking with an error message. Otherwise, the article is fine; nobody is even aware there's a problem unless they scroll down there and see the message. Still, it's a problem worth addressing and I think it's better to be proactive than reactive about this. Possible solutions: *Reduce [[WP:OVERCITE]]. *Remove content, with the associated citations. *This was a recurring problem in the past (see archive). Eventually, someone removed one or more navboxes at the bottom, which freed up a huge amount of PEIS. I don't know if there is more potential reduction in that area. Other kinds of templates will also contribute to PEIS, but I don't know how much without looking into it more. Anyway, the PEIS limit would appear to impose an arbitrary upper limit on article size, assuming the number of citations is roughly proportional to article size&amp;mdash;and this article is very close to that limit. Maybe that's not all bad? &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:35, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :Lots of overciting, been meaning to tackle it but it's a lot of reading. [[User:Space4Time3Continuum2x |&lt;span style=&quot;color: #3200CC;&quot;&gt;'''Space4T'''ime3Continuum2x&lt;/span&gt;]][[User_talk:Space4Time3Continuum2x |🖖]] 16:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :Did the change to short footnotes cause any part of this? If so I'm sorry. I will try to lessen overcites when I run across them. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 19:48, 19 November 2024 (UTC) ::I see a total of six footnotes. Not a significant contribution to the problem. Thanks for asking. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 19:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC) :::Oh boy. Page size said 15672 words today, which is over the top limit at [[WP:SPLIT]]. I have never seen an article fail but golly, I'm retracting my proposal to rewrite Early life without prejudice. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I'm possibly looking in the next weeks at proposing we apply [[User:Trainsandotherthings/The Earth Test|The Earth Test]], which should be appropriate given the extensive use of [[Template:Main]]. Does anyone here have initial rejections of this as my activities are lining up with that direction. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Looks like an arbitrary limit, and Wikipedia hates arbitrary limits. Why not get us as far as possible into summary style and then see where we are? That might well be all we need in the area of article reduction. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 11:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Update: Edits have increased the ~12 to ~37. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Merge the offices in Trump's infobox? &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;I think that we should merge the offices in Trump's infobox. What do y'all think?&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == Here is a new infobox I've designed in my [[User:WorldMappings/sandbox|user sandbox]]. {{cot|Proposed infobox. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)}} {{Infobox officeholder | image = Donald Trump official portrait.jpg&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE the picture without prior consensus; see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 1. --&gt; | alt = Official White House presidential portrait. Headshot of Trump smiling in front of the U.S. flag, wearing a dark blue suit jacket with American flag lapel pin, white shirt, and light blue necktie. | caption = Official portrait, 2017 | order = 45th &amp; 47th&lt;!-- DO NOT ADD A LINK. Please discuss any proposal on the talk page first. Most recent discussion at [[Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 65#Link-ifying &quot;45th&quot; in the Infobox?]] had a weak consensus to keep the status-quo (no link). --&gt; | office = President of the United States | vicepresident = [[JD Vance]] (elect) | term_start = January 20, 2025 | succeeding = [[Joe Biden]] | vicepresident1 = [[Mike Pence]] | term_start1 = January 20, 2017 | term_end1 = January 20, 2021 | predecessor1 = [[Barack Obama]] | successor1 = Joe Biden | birth_name = Donald John Trump | birth_date = {{Birth date and age|1946|6|14}} | birth_place = [[Queens]], New York City, U.S.&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE (or add to) this location without prior consensus; please see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 2. --&gt; | party = [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] (1987–1999, 2009–2011, 2012–present) | otherparty = {{plainlist}} * [[Reform Party of the United States of America|Reform]] (1999–2001) * [[Democratic Party (United States)|Democratic]] (2001–2009) * [[Independent politician|Independent]] (2011–2012) {{endplainlist}} | spouse = {{plainlist}} * {{marriage|[[Ivana Zelníčková]]|April 9, 1977|December 11, 1990|end=divorced}} * {{marriage|[[Marla Maples]]|December 20, 1993|June 8, 1999|end=divorced}} * {{marriage|[[Melania Knauss]]|January 22, 2005}} {{endplainlist}} | children = {{flatlist| * [[Donald Jr.]] * [[Ivanka Trump|Ivanka]] * [[Eric Trump|Eric]] * [[Tiffany Trump|Tiffany]] * [[Barron Trump|Barron]] }} | mother = [[Mary Anne Trump]] | father = [[Fred Trump]] | relatives = [[Trump family]] | awards = [[List of awards and honors received by Donald Trump|Full list]] | alma_mater = [[University of Pennsylvania]] ([[Bachelor of Science|BS]])&lt;!-- DO NOT CHANGE this college or diploma without prior consensus, see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 63. --&gt; | net_worth = &lt;!-- Keep empty, per [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 47. --&gt; | occupation = {{hlist|[[Political career of Donald Trump|Politician]]|[[Business career of Donald Trump|businessman]]|[[Media career of Donald Trump|media personality]]}} | signature = Donald Trump (Presidential signature).svg | signature_alt = Donald J. Trump stylized autograph, in ink | website = {{#invoke:list|unbulleted|{{URL|https://www.donaldjtrump.com|Campaign website}}|{{URL|https://www.trumplibrary.gov/|Presidential library}}|{{URL|https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/|White House archives}}}} | module = {{Listen|pos=center|embed=yes|filename=Donald Trump speaks on declaration of Covid-19 as a Global Pandemic by the World Health Organization.ogg|title=Donald Trump's voice|type=speech|description=Donald Trump speaks on the declaration of [[COVID-19 pandemic|COVID-19 as a global pandemic]] by the [[World Health Organization]].&lt;br /&gt;Recorded March 11, 2020}} }} {{cob}} [[User:WorldMappings|WorldMappings]] ([[User talk:WorldMappings|talk]]) 21:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC) == Proposal to add brief description of Trumpism in lead == Should the lead contain a brief description of [[Trumpism]], which it currently mentions without further explanation? I added one, but Farkle Griffin [[Special:Diff/1258652829|reverted]] me, citing length concerns. I agree with the recent lead cuts, but the statement &quot;Trump created Trumpism&quot; without further description is meaningless, and I think it benefits readers to briefly explain what he stands for politically without requiring them to click through and read the lead of the other article. Here is a brief, 12-word proposal: &quot;In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement, {{tq|characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, [[protectionism]], and loyalty to himself.}}&quot; The specifics are up for debate. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 21:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :I completely disagree with this proposal. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 15:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Neither support nor oppose here, but what are your thoughts on simply including it in a footnote? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 22:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::I think it's important enough to state outside of a footnote. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 22:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :Maybe something along these lines? :&quot;In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]], during which he promoted [[nationalism]], [[anti-establishment]] rhetoric, and [[List of conspiracy theories promoted by Donald Trump|conspiracy theories]]. His policies and rhetoric led to the [[Trumpism]] movement.&quot; [[User:Rexxx7777|Rexxx7777]] ([[User talk:Rexxx7777|talk]]) 22:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC) ::I prefer a mention of &quot;[[right-wing populism]]&quot; to &quot;anti-establishment rhetoric&quot;, as that is how this article currently describes his positions; the other article also helps connect Trump's rise to the global context of emergent figures such as [[Viktor Orbán]], [[Giorgia Meloni]], [[Jair Bolsonaro]], and [[Javier Milei]]. I also think mentioning &quot;'[[America First (policy)|America First]]' nationalism&quot; is better than &quot;nationalism&quot; alone, as that article helps explain the non-interventionist and economic protectionist elements of Trump's brand of nationalism, which is not implied by simply stating &quot;nationalism&quot;. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *At a minimum, this should be added to the body before considering adding it to the lede. Trumpism is not really discussed in the body. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *:Perhaps not all in one sentence, but the body does in fact mention Trumpism, right-wing populism, America First, and protectionism, and even his cult of personality. I think my proposal does a good job of tying this all together. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *::It doesn't relate these to Trumpism. It also doesn't mention the &quot;loyalty to himself&quot; comment. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *:::What is Trumpism but the rhetoric, ideology, and political actions of Donald Trump, which form the bulk of this article's content? The last part about &quot;loyalty&quot; I am less confident in than the rest, and will bow to opposition to it. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 23:57, 20 November 2024 (UTC) *::::I am not opposed, I am just asking that the lede doesn't develop separately from the body per the [[MOS:LEAD|manual of style]]. The lede shouldn't be the only place that &lt;del&gt;defines Trumpism.&lt;/del&gt; &lt;ins&gt;defines Trumpism. How you define Trumpism is also at odds with the lede of [[Trumpism]]: {{tq|a political movement in the United States that comprises the political ideologies associated with Donald Trump and his political base.}}&lt;/ins&gt;[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 00:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I am slightly modifying my proposal to this: {{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which gave rise to [[Trumpism]], a political movement characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[protectionism]].}} — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 00:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::I think loyalty to Trump is an important part of it.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 03:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yeah, but it's kinda implied by the name. Let's give our readers the credit of putting together that &quot;Trumpists&quot; are loyal to Trump [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 05:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::For a few weeks we have been discussing the need for this kind of addition in multiple talk pages. Some editors agreed, some didn't. For me this seems mandatory, since Trump winning the first election is the most notable event of his life and it needs proper context. In my opinion Goszei additions to the second paragraph manage to make that description clear and concise. Editor @[[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] reverted them with explanation &quot;overdetail&quot;. I disagree, there is a missing flow in the lead that is filled in by these additions, they are also not overdetailed and the second paragraph has space for them. ::::Goszei edit: ::::{{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which gave rise to [[Trumpism]], a political movement characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[protectionism]].}} ::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258693326&amp;oldid=1258687981 the reversion] by Nikkimaria: ::::{{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement.}} ::::Also another detail that said &quot;and focused on luxury accommodation&quot; was removed. It helps to define what Trump was known for. Before that the lead went in even more detail with the kind of properties Trump invested in. ::::Similarly to what @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] is saying I do not believe that the &quot;loyal to himself&quot; part is needed. ::::I've done 2 reversions in the last 24h so I'll avoid going further, someone else can reinsert these if there is consensus. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:31, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::The lead does not need any more detail, particularly (as noted above) detail that is not in the body. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::but they do are in the body. you could argue there is a repetition from general rethoric before being a president to the official acts, but it's different imo. ::::::and him having mostly luxury accomodations has now completelly disappeared, I'll edit that in since I don't see any reason to remove it and gives proper context. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 00:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Added the details back by connecting them directly on Trump and not on Trumpism, as it was noted here before. Should be good now. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 00:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Nope, definitely not good, those additions should be reverted until you've got consensus for them. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::The &quot;luxury accomodations&quot; part was present in the lead for a very long time in an even more developed form, so why revert that? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Regarding the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1259044948&amp;oldid=1259032069 main diff] that has been reverted by @[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ::::::::::In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] &lt;u&gt;characterized by [[Right-wing populism|right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[Protectionism|protectionism]]&lt;/u&gt;, which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement. ::::::::::How do other editors feel? Is this relevant enough for the lead and properly present on body? ::::::::::@[[User:Goszei|Goszei]] @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] @[[User:Rexxx7777|Rexxx7777]] @[[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] @[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] (editors that participated in this discussion) @[[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] @[[User:Mandruss|Mandruss]] @[[User:Thistheyear2023|Thistheyear2023]] @[[User:Димитрий Улянов Иванов|Димитрий Улянов Иванов]] @[[User:PizzaKing13|PizzaKing13]] @[[User:750h+|750h+]] @[[User:BootsED|BootsED]] (editors of the newer 50 edits) ::::::::::If you got the time please motivate your reasoning in favor or against this addition, so that we can look for consensus. If this is too close I will consider doing a RfC for it. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 13:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::I'd support it's inclusion as it appears to be an accurate description. Thanks, [[User:Димитрий Улянов Иванов|Димитрий Улянов Иванов]] ([[User talk:Димитрий Улянов Иванов|talk]]) 14:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::Since you pinged me, I'll reply. '''I completely agree with [[User:Moxy|Moxy]]'s edit, and therefore disagree with the inclusion of content'''. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 14:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::I think the most important thing is that it keeps mention of Trumpism. I like the edit before it was removed, and thus support the inclusion. If the consensus is to remove the edit, as long as Trumpism is still mentioned, I am okay with it. The page for Trumpism mentions how it is right-wing populist as nationalist. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 20:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :What would this ass we do not already say? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::For me it is a mather of order and logical steps. This is what he said and did before being a president, what made him popular. The formulation is in the right place in the lead (second paragraph) and feels more direct that just refering to policies later on. This is consistent with the lead of [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]], for exemple (no comparison between individuals but of how to develop an high quality complex lead). Antisemitism is mentioned in paragraph 2, while he was not in power, despite references to his antisemitic policies obviously having a spot later. ::For me, this how a lead should be written. Anything else is sloppy and with major logical holes. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 14:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::So this would not add anything, just change the order of the lead? [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == muslim ban formulation on lead == @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] Since I did one revert already on the page I will refrain to go further and I am opening a discussion to discuss that precise phrase. This is the version that was recently added and that I find the best: {{tq|In his first term, he [[Executive Order 13769|ordered a travel ban]] limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries}} and this is yours: {{tq|In his first term, he ordered the &quot;[[Executive Order 13769|Muslim ban]]&quot; limiting refugees}} I really feel like the first formulation is extremelly more clear. It manages to say in a couple of words what that executive order was about, previous formulations and your latest are difficult to grasp for someone who is not already familiar with the topic. Why did you feel the need for the change? And what do other editors think? [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 23:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC) :I also want to point out that the current lead is not too long. Editors have done an egregious job in the last few weeks to shorten it and put elements in the right place. So, in my opinion, that should not be an argument to prefer one over the other. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 00:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I support the original version. The new version is not clear enough. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 01:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::Agree. The original version is more comprehensive at the cost of only a few extra words if length is concerned. &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 01:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I only re-added it because your edit summary removing it had to do with a different edit. You're still free to revert it now that you've included an explanation. :However, to respond to your post here, I don't see what information it loses, and it also removes a somewhat [[WP:LINKCLARITY|unclear link]] &quot;ordered a travel ban&quot; in favor if the order's common name. :If anything I think this is clearer. The ''point'' of the bill was to limit Muslim immigration, but, as previously phrased it sounds like he ordered a general travel ban that ''just so happened'' to limit refugees. Using the order's name adds information, and makes this point better and much more concisely. [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::The way the first reads to me implies that it '''limits''' Muslim refugees from entering the country by placing the limitation on ''Muslim-majority countries.'' The second one, to me more-so implies an outright ban to all Muslim immigration which would in turn limit refugees &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 01:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::That's fair. I still think the item's name should be used instead of the current link. :::But also, wouldn't this reasoning extend to the other items in the sentence as well? :::&quot;Trump ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries, funded the Trump wall expanding the U.S.–Mexico border wall, and implemented a family separation policy at the border, separating migrant children and parents.&quot; [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 01:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::We need to achieve a balance between brevity and accurately explaining the policies. &quot;Funded the Trump wall&quot; borders on too vague as well, and doesn't convey that the wall already existed and that he expanded its length. My preferred wording here is {{tq|ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees, expanded the wall on the U.S.{{endash}}Mexico border, and implemented a family separation policy.}} — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 02:04, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::&quot;We need to achieve a balance&quot; :::::Are you suggesting there's a way to measure that balance? Or are you just saying yours is perfectly balanced and we should use that? [[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] ([[User talk:Farkle Griffen|talk]]) 05:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::My proposal contains as many words as I think are needed to explain without being inaccurate or misleading. Other editors can disagree, especially on the &quot;misleading&quot; part, and propose their own. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 05:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I agree with what Goszei is doing, trying to refer to policy not only with a catch all journalistic nickname but actually working on a proper, short summarization that fairly represents the policy. One is easier to do but actually useless to the reader, the other is complex but carries meaning. His latest proposition, {{tq|ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees}}, seems good to me. Also because there were ecceptions on the list of countries targeted. I will edit that in and let's see if we can agree on it. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 11:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :{{tq|Muslim ban}} falsely implies that the ban applied to all Muslims, but {{tq|ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries}} also misrepresents what the order actually did (it suspended all entry from those countries, not just refugees, which was a separate provision). If we want to indicate that the ban targeted Muslims (which civil rights organizations and similar groups claimed was its not-so-secret purpose, which was supported by reporting such as [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/29/trump-asked-for-a-muslim-ban-giuliani-says-and-ordered-a-commission-to-do-it-legally/]), perhaps we could compromise with the wording {{tq|ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees}}. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 01:47, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == Has Trump been convicted of a felony? &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id=&quot;Trump has not been convicted of a felony&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == The jury had merely returned a verdict. Only a judge can convict someone - a judge can still throw the jury's verdict away. While extremely rare, it can happen. Wikipedia's definition agrees: &quot;A convict is &quot;a person found guilty of a crime and sentenced by a court&quot; or &quot;a person serving a sentence in prison&quot;. Source: [[Convict|Convict - Wikipedia]] Notice it says &quot;found guilty of a crime&quot; AND &quot;sentenced by a court.&quot; Only a judge can do the latter. According to the American Bar: &quot;The''' decision of the jury doesn t take effect until the judge enters a judgment on the decision''' - that is, an order that it be filed in public records.&quot; Source: [https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/judgment/ How Courts Work - Americanbar.org &quot;Judgement&quot;] So no, Trump has not been convicted of any felony. All that has happened is a jury has returned a verdict. Please change the lede to reflect Wikipedia's own definition of convict as well as basic knowledge of how courts work. Thank you! [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 08:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :This has already been explained to you elsewhere on this page, but here goes with another attempt.{{pb}}As I told you, Wikipedia may not be used as a source for itself. So why did you link to that Wikipedia article again?{{pb}}As someone else told you, &quot;convicted&quot; (verb or adjective) and &quot;convict&quot; (noun) are not equivalent. One can be convicted without being a convict. Is English your first language?{{pb}}See [[Wikipedia:No original research]]. Excerpted from its very first paragraph:{{tq2|To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are {{em|directly related}} to the topic of the article and {{em|directly support}}{{efn|A source &quot;directly supports&quot; a given piece of material if the information is present {{em|explicitly}} in the source so that using this source to support the material is not a violation of this policy against original research. For questions about where and how to place citations, see [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]], {{section link|Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section|Citations}}, etc.}} the material being presented.}}You have yet to present a single reliable source that mentions Trump and says he has not been convicted. Therefore the &quot;directly&quot; requirement has not been met.{{pb}}I will close this as resolved if no one else has commented within 24 hours. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::Did you not see the American Bar website I posted? Lol ::Convict is a noun: &quot;CONVICT is a person '''convicted''' of and under sentence for a crime. How to use convict in a sentence.&quot; ::You do know the judge can throw away the verdict right? The fact is, he's not convicted of a felony. Prove he is if you can. Show me. It's not up to me to prove a negative - it's up to you to prove a positive. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::Since you apparently have a hearing problem, I'm not wasting any more of my time trying to speak to you. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 12:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If Trump is a convicted felon, he will not be able to travel to the UK and Canada. ::::Will he be able to travel to the UK and Canada? Yes or no? ::::[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/why-donald-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-yet/ar-BB1no6oV Why Donald Trump Isn't A Convicted Felon (Yet)] ::::[https://www.foxnews.com/politics/yale-law-professor-outlines-potential-trump-legal-strategy-following-guilty-verdict-nation-needs?msockid=1248a7002eb9682a14dcb4682f186918]https://www.foxnews.com/politics/yale-law-professor-outlines-potential-trump-legal-strategy-following-guilty-verdict-nation-needs?msockid=1248a7002eb9682a14dcb4682f186918 &quot;You are not convicted until the judge enters that judgment of guilt.&quot; [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::FINALLY, you produce sources that at least meet the minimum policy requirements. Now it's a question of [[WP:WEIGHT]], since many other reliable sources say he's been convicted. I'll leave that to others. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 13:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Here I will add some references, I can see you have kinda had an unpleasant time with this topic, I will try and be more prim and proper with my efforts. The most relevant section here is &quot;Despite media reports, Rubenfeld insisted that it’s “not true” that Trump is already a “convicted felon,” arguing that one is “not a convicted felon because of a jury verdict.” ::::::“You are not convicted until the judge enters that judgment of guilt. Now, in New York, it’s very likely that [https://nypost.com/2024/06/07/us-news/judge-merchan-alerts-trump-lawyer-manhattan-das-office-to-facebook-comment-purportedly-made-by-a-jurors-cousin/ Judge Merchan] will enter that judgment of guilt against Trump on the same day that he issues sentencing. That’d be July 11th.” https://nypost.com/2024/06/08/us-news/yale-law-professor-says-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-despite-guilty-verdict-heres-why/ [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 13:21, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::See [[WP:NYPOST]]... [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 07:13, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::I see you deleted my question, fair enough it is here. I saw it explained by a US lawyer that one cannot be a felon until sentencing, especially as that can involve discharge without conviction. And its not just a technicality, the restrictions of felony status don't kick in until that time. I asked the AI and it says the same. And the previous commentator has a few references saying the exact same. It seems the most correct phrase is that he &quot;has been found guilty&quot;. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 13:15, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::This is somewhat accurate, to provide a bit more clarity: conviction does not occur until ''after'' sentencing, with there still being time for additional legal proceedings such as appeals beforehand - so yes he has technically been found ''guilty'' by a jury, however he is '''not''' a convicted felon &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :He has been convicted, he has just not been sentenced, which is independent of a guilty verdict. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::I have to agree with @[[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] here ::From my understanding Trump has been found guilty by a jury in certain cases, but he has not yet been ''formally'' '''convicted''' because the judge has not entered a conviction by imposing a sentence. Conviction only occurs ''after'' sentencing, and in some cases, there may be additional legal proceedings (like appeals) before that happens. &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::I think the point being missed is that our understanding has nothing to do with it. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 21:53, 21 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Well this is not really an understanding but more-so just the way that the legal system works... I have not yet had a look at the sources to see what [[WP:RS]] is supporting that he is a '''convicted''' felon, but if it is just news outlets then I would not think we should rely on them for something such as this for the sake of accuracy. Wikipedia does not have any concrete rules but more-so guidelines so if we are reporting on what RS has said about this, then I think we should do so with the indisputable legal facts in mind and use sources that know what they are talking about rather than just regurgitating what a reporter is claiming ::::If there is something I have missed or overlooked then please disregard my comment &lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;[[User:Artem P75|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#7F00FF;&quot;&gt;'''''Artem...'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#880808;border:1px solid#880808&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:white&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk: Artem P75|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :::::No, you may have a point. I vaguely recall doing something like that once or twice in the distant past. This thread got off to a bad start because the OP has no editing knowledge, and the first five comments are basically useless distractions. I think an experienced editor should start a new thread and we could close this one. It's likely to end up a long one. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 04:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::I understood the entire time you wanted me to link to a news source or something like that. But I shouldn't have had to because Trump not being a convicted felon is truism. It doesn't need a source. It'd be like asking for a source that Trump isn't Santa Claus or a German citizen. It's just a fact he isn't. You essentially put the burden of proof on the defendant. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:26, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Yeah it is just news outlets. But I added and the other guys added news outlets quoting a legal professor showing it isn't true. And then we have the Bar association, where we can see the professor is right. I will attach the sequence of trial. Here is the key bit. &quot;The decision of the jury doesn t take effect until the judge enters a judgment on the decision - that is, an order that it be filed in public records.&quot;. And that hasn't happened yet. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/judgment/ [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 23:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC) {{od}}{{u|Liger404}} Thankyou for your work here. Unfortunately, what you're describing above is considered [[WP:OR|original research]]: have a read of the &quot;Smith and Jones&quot; example in that page. None of the secondary sources you or other editors have found at this time are considered [[WP:RS|reliable]], I've had a quick look and couldn't find anything either. The best place to go from here would be to ask the [[WP:RDH|reference desk]] or [[WP:LAW|Wikiproject Law]] if reliable sources verify this. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 10:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :It's not OR to check that the words we use accurately reflect their definitions. News media are not expert sources for law, they are merely sources for what happened. If they use terms incorrectly, then we should fix it. :Technically, a jury returns a guilty verdict and a judge enters a conviction. The judge may however ignore the jury's verdict of guilt and not record a conviction or enter a conviction following a verdict of not guilty. Also, the conviction is not considered final until all appeals have run out. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 11:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::{{u|The Four Deuces}} I am possibly stretching the Smith and Jones example too far. I don't like relying on news sources, so I don't want to take too firm a stand. I hope {{u|voorts}} doesn't mind if I ping him in here. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 11:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::He was found guilty by a jury. In New York, a judgment of conviction is issued after sentencing. However, the distinction between being found guilty by a jury and a court issuing a judgment is so in the weeds that I don't think it matters which one we use. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 14:16, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thankyou voorts. This addresses my main concern that we as non-subject matter experts were unaware of relevant facts. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 16:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I'd say it matters whether this article's lead says Trump is the first U.S. president convicted of a felony. A lot. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 18:10, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::voorts is a lawyer from New York, and is speaking from such a perspective as to whether the distinction is important. I imagine the alternative would be &quot;found guilty by a jury of felony crimes&quot; etc, do you see a significant loss from such a switch? Alternatively &quot;convicted felon&quot; would be used and the reference to primary sources would be footnoted. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 18:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::If reliable secondary sources say convicted, we should say the same. See [[WP:VNT]]. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 20:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::How do you think this applies the fifth example given in the #How can we tell section of [[WP:WSAW]], also an essay? [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:56, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::I don't think it's &quot;obviously inaccurate&quot; to say that Trump was &quot;convicted&quot; because colloquially, a jury finding someone guilty is referred to as a conviction. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 21:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Makes sense, thankyou for your input here. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 23:22, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::I'm unconvinced it's wise to use a colloquialism for something that important. It's an encyclopedia. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 00:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I do not think the standard we are seeking here is being excusably inaccurate. If he was going to be sentenced and become a felon in the next few weeks, I would agree. But this is a detail that matters, Trump being the first Felon President would be historic. However because he will not be a felon until sentenced, and because sentencing has not been postponed until after he is president it is not clear that Trump will ever become a felon. Therefore it is actually a substantial error that we are saying this, as it is not true and is quite possibly never going to become true. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Sorry that is supposed to show that sentencing HAS being postponed. So the feloney status will not be applied for at least 4 years, if ever. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:29, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::It matter substantially because the sentencing is now delayed until at least after the Presidency and possibly indefinitely. This fundamentally changes an essential fact. Trump at this stage does not seem likely to ever actually become a felon, or at least not for 4 years. The distinction matters for this reason, because it fundamentally changes the feloney outcome. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::I disagree, because even Wikipedia states only a judge can convict: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdict#Criminal_law ::::&quot;A verdict of guilty in a criminal case generally requires evidence to be tested and true beyond reasonable doubt and is normally followed by a judgment of conviction rendered by judge, which in turn be followed by sentencing.&quot; ::::It should be consistent. [[User:McDonaldsGuy|McDonaldsGuy]] ([[User talk:McDonaldsGuy|talk]]) 12:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :The news source I attached is the Washington post. Surely that's reliable? But perhaps more importantly it's quoting a US law professor. I have the guys YouTube video on the matter if that helps? Surely expert legal opinion is the highest level of source? [[Special:Contributions/115.189.93.186|115.189.93.186]] ([[User talk:115.189.93.186|talk]]) 00:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Surely the New York post and a Yale law Professor are reputable sources? A mainstream newspaper and an Ivy league subject matter expert. https://nypost.com/2024/06/08/us-news/yale-law-professor-says-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-despite-guilty-verdict-heres-why/ or if you want the actual Podcast, so the direct words of a Yale Constitutional law Professor, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u23t__ysVjU&amp;ab_channel=ProfessorJedRubenfeld [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::The NY Post is not a reliable source - see [[WP:NYPOST]] for the reasons why and the multiple discussions surrounding that. One law professor is certainly a reliable source for their own opinion - but that does ''not'' mean that their opinion is to be treated as fact and reported in &quot;wikivoice&quot; (i.e. saying &quot;Trump was convicted&quot; or not). That source would be reliable to report that in the opinion of that professor, Trump is not a convicted felon at this time. But the plurality (if not majority) of reliable sources are reporting he has been convicted. It matters not what the &quot;technical&quot; definition of the word is - it matters how it's used in common English. In common English, the word &quot;convicted&quot; can either mean &quot;final judgment has been passed&quot; ''or'' &quot;a jury has returned a verdict of guilty and there is no sign that it is going to be overturned&quot;.{{pb}}That said, I think there's a simple solution here. Why do we not just change &quot;convicted of a felony&quot; to &quot;found guilty of a felony (by a jury)&quot; with the parenthetical not being necessary in my opinion but... -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &amp;#124; [[User:berchanhimez|me]] &amp;#124; [[User talk:berchanhimez|talk to me!]] 08:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::Yes my same proposal was a change in language to &quot;Has been found guilty&quot;, although perhaps is is worth saying &quot;Has been found guilty in the ongoing case xyz&quot; . Felon is common parlance means someone who lives with the legal restrictions of a felony. Travel,voting guns rights, jobs ect. Because Trump does not yet have felony status, and now with the sentencing indefinitely delayed until at least after the presidency, Trump will not have felony status, and may never. So he isn't a &quot;felon&quot; in the way you would use the word when say, selling him a gun, filling out a travel visa or a job application. I do also have a Hindustan Times report that sames the same, referencing the same professor basically. I see they are considered semi accurate on that list. https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/us-news/trump-not-a-convicted-felon-yet-yale-law-professor-trashes-hush-money-trial-verdict-crime-is-so-unclear-101717926723371.html [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 08:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::The word &quot;felon&quot; is not currently anywhere in the article and is not currently an issue. If someone tried to add it, I would oppose simply because it's unnecessarily [[MOS:LABEL|&quot;labelly&quot;]]. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::Well ok, but it says &quot;convicted of a felony&quot; which is incorrect. And its incorrect in a way that matters, because it's no longer clear that this will ever happen, and if it will happen seems certain to be years away. And I would say a reasonable person reading that line would interpret it as Trump now being a convicted felon. Thus the language is misleading in an important way about a historically significant event. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 09:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == order of sentences on lead == I tried to change the order of sentences on lead, following the logic that would describe his first presidency and comments on third paragraph, and putting informations related to officials trials and such on fourth. There is no perfect &quot;chronological&quot; order either way, and that felt smoother to me, and it avoids mixing together two different kind of facts that are taking different paths (journalistic commentary or judicial system). @[[User:Farkle Griffen|Farkle Griffen]] why do you feel that the other formulation is better? For other editors, this is the diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258711727&amp;oldid=1258705669 [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == description of his political approach on lead == For a few weeks we have been discussing in multiple sections on talk the need to have something that would relate to Trump rise to power. Some editors agreed, some didn't. For me this seems mandatory, since Trump winning the first election is the most notable event of his life and it needs proper context. In my opinion Goszei additions to the second paragraph manage to make that description clear and concise. Editor @[[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] reverted them with explanation &quot;overdetail&quot;. I disagree, there is a missing flow in the lead that is filled in by these additions, they are also not overdetailed and the second paragraph has space for them. Goszei edit: {{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which gave rise to [[Trumpism]], a political movement characterized by [[right-wing populism]], &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; nationalism, and economic [[protectionism]].}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1258693326&amp;oldid=1258687981 the reversion] by Nikkimaria: {{tq|In 2015, Trump launched [[#2016 presidential campaign|a presidential campaign]] which led to the [[Trumpism]] movement.}} Also another detail that said &quot;and focused on luxury accommodation&quot; was removed. It helps to define what Trump was known for. Before that the lead went in even more detail with the kind of properties Trump invested in. [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC) :I had not noticed that there was already an [[Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal to add brief description of Trumpism in lead|ongoing discussion]] for this. Please refer to that one! [[User:Cinemaandpolitics|Cinemaandpolitics]] ([[User talk:Cinemaandpolitics|talk]]) 12:28, 21 November 2024 (UTC) == It makes no sense to separate military service from government service == There are civilian contractors who are distinct from the military. Civilian contractors are not part of the government, whereas the military is part of the government's department of defense. In fact, the chief commander of the military is the president. Indeed, the department of defense is the largest department of the government in terms of number of employees. Therefore, the sentence 'Trump won the 2016 presidential election and became the first U.S. president without prior military or government service.' makes no sense and should be reworded to 'Trump won the 2016 presidential election and became the first U.S. president without prior government service.' Just my 2 cents. [[Special:Contributions/206.176.149.191|206.176.149.191]] ([[User talk:206.176.149.191|talk]]) 12:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :But a teacher is not in the military, and an artillery man is not a teacher. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::I would say teacher has government service at the city level. ::[[Special:Contributions/216.165.197.66|216.165.197.66]] ([[User talk:216.165.197.66|talk]]) 13:07, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::Err, yes, that is my point, they are however not soldiers. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :This has been brought up over and over, see talk page archives. We have an existing [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]], [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item 8. Unless you have significant new arguments, we will not revisit that consensus.{{pb}}Anyway, there is [[Talk:Donald Trump#Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8|a proposal to remove this factoid from the lead]], using the &quot;significant new argument&quot; that it no longer earns its keep in our substantially-reduced lead. It's looking like the proposal will pass, which would moot this discussion. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 01:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Have always found it weird that when these templates are implemented..... the primary data people are interested in place of birth age etc are now moved to the bottom of the template. &lt;span style=&quot;font-weight:bold;color:darkblue&quot;&gt;[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]&lt;/span&gt;🍁 01:42, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Watering down of criticism == Re; [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1258943656 this reversion] of my edits. Hi {{u|ValarianB}}, I explained my edits as aligning the text with the sources. If you would like to reinstate the previous version, ensure the text better aligns with the sources. For context, I changed a sentence from: :{{tq|His embrace of far-right extremism and harsher rhetoric against his political enemies have been described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, [[Donald Trump and fascism|fascist]]}} :→ {{tq|His harsher rhetoric against his political enemies has been described by some historians and scholars as authoritarian, [[Donald Trump and fascism|fascist]]}}. I also removed several sources for not verifying this information and the descriptor of embracing far-right extremism. I did this per my readthrough of the sources, seeing if they were verifying the text, seen below. {{collapse top}} {| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; ! |Populist |Fascist |Authoritarian | |- |https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/27/magazine/trump-rallies-rhetoric.html |Yes: NYTvoice |Debated, some changed their mind as of 2021 | | |- |https://www.vox.com/2023/11/14/23958866/trump-vermin-authoritarian-democracy | |Debated in 2021, Voxvoice yes | | |- |https://www.axios.com/2023/11/13/trump-vermin-fascist-language-speech | |Some historians describing rhetoric 2024 | | |- |https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/trumps-fascistic-rhetoric-only-emphasizes-the-stakes-in-2024 | |NewYorkerVoice |NewYorkerVoice | |- |https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/11/donald-trump-authoritarian-second-term | |VanityFairVoice |VanityFairVoice | |- |https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/07/trump-second-term-isolationist-fascism/674791/ |SME scholar |&quot;Variety of academics&quot; SME: Could be a fascist in 2nd term based on promises |SME scholar | |- |https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-compares-political-opponents-vermin-root-alarming-historians/story?id=104847748 | |Ambiguous: some historians or historians generally | | |- |https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/12/trump-racist-rhetoric-immigrants-00183537 | | |Some experts |Some experts &quot;Nazi ideology&quot; |- |https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/10/trump-authoritarian-rhetoric-hitler-mussolini/680296/ |SME historian | | | |- |https://www.axios.com/2024/10/11/mark-milley-trump-fascist-bob-woodward-book | | | | |- |https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/10/12/mark-milley-donald-trump-fascist/ | | | | |- |https://www.thebulwark.com/p/mattis-told-woodward-he-agreed-trump | | | | |- |https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/22/politics/trump-fascist-john-kelly/index.html | | | | |} {{collapse bottom}} As seen, only four sources are discussing the attitudes of historians and scholars as classes re; 2024 conduct. I clarified that this was held by &quot;some&quot; scholars and historians; none of the sources made a stronger claim except ambiguously the ABC News piece on historians views of fascism; the rest all qualified with &quot;some&quot;. Many sources didn't discuss historians or historians at all. Those four sources actually discussing attitudes among historians and scholars were retained. Two sources mentioned populism, both subject matter experts, although only one in the context of Trump's 2024 rhetoric and neither commented on beliefs among historians and scholars as a class. Populism as a descriptor was removed, it is already mentioned in a more relevant place earlier: {{tq|Trump's political positions and rhetoric were described as right-wing populist.}} Only one source supported the descriptor &quot;embraced far-right extremism&quot;, and it was entirely sourced to the analysis of a non-subject-matter-expert journalist; insufficient for an [[WP:EXTRAORDINARY|extraordinary]] claim. Citing academic consensus to news pieces is already insufficient but is retained until further reading can be performed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 16:35, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :{{Ping|Rollinginhisgrave}} I agree with you. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 00:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Still counting votes == {{atop|Resolved per OP. Eligible for manual archival after this time tomorrow. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 20:23, 22 November 2024 (UTC)}} [[Peter Baker (journalist)|Peter Baker]]'s analysis says today that when the votes are all in, Mr. Trump's total will fall below 50%. We should prepare to state that he ran three times, was elected twice, and never won the popular vote.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news|title=The ‘Landslide’ That Wasn’t: Trump and Allies Pump Up His Narrow Victory|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/22/us/politics/trump-election-landslide.html|last=Baker|first=Peter|date=November 22, 2024|access-date=November 22, 2024|work=The New York Times}}&lt;/ref&gt; {{talk-reflist}} -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 16:47, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :It does not require winning the majority of popular vote to win the popular vote. In European presidential elections, the winner almost never wins the majority of the popular vote, only more popular vote than the other candidates. [[Special:Contributions/216.165.197.66|216.165.197.66]] ([[User talk:216.165.197.66|talk]]) 17:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Thank you for the correction! -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 19:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::That is OR, it's also all rather irrelevant as we do not know yet if he did or did not win the popular vote (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/popular-vote). [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:07, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::The New York Times source linked above says &quot;With some votes still being counted, the tally used by The New York Times showed Mr. Trump winning the popular vote with 49.997 percent as of Thursday night&quot;. This directly contradicts the idea that you need to win a majority to &quot;win&quot; the popular vote. The dictionary definition linked also doesn't claim that you need to win a majority to &quot;win&quot; the popular vote. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:14, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::Ahh I see, and where did Harris come?. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::She's at ~48.3% at the moment. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:29, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::That is what winning the popular vote means, he got more votes. [[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Think we're in agreement, have another readover of the thread. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 17:38, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::Yes, we know. The OP said {{tq|Trump's total will fall below 50%}}, when the test is whether he falls below Harris. This entire thread has been for clearing up that point. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 17:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Thank you for the correction! (I'm not the best at counting votes.) Baker says in this article that &lt;b&gt;{{tq|&quot;Mr. Trump won the popular vote for the first time in three tries.&quot;}}&lt;/b&gt; Still I think we need to prepare for Mr. Baker's point {{tq|&quot;he prevailed with one of the smallest margins of victory in the popular vote since the 19th century and generated little of the coattails of a true landslide.&quot;}} despite Mr. Trump's claims. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::{{u|Mandruss}}, this can be archived. No more corrections needed. Thanks. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 20:21, 22 November 2024 (UTC) {{abot}} == Overdetail == @[[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]], you removed [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259051300 this] edit claiming overdetail. I disagree and think it adds much needed information to the page and is well-sourced. I copied over three sentences from the rhetoric page I thought would enhance the main page, but left the vast majority of information out, as I myself do not want to overdetail the main page. The content was copied within the relevant section. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 02:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :There is already considerable discussion of rhetoric and related concepts incorporated into the rest of the article, including the claim that he is populist/nationalist, use of demeaning and derogatory language, and his rejection of the 2020 election results. If you wanted to reorganize the existing content to move it into the rhetoric section, I would have no objection, but I don't think we need to add new content there. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::My added content did not mention his rejection of the 2020 election results. I think you are referring to the mention of the &quot;[[big lie]]&quot; which in this case refers to the propaganda technique, which is why it is in the rhetoric section. The &quot;big lie&quot; mentioned elsewhere refers to the lie of a stolen election itself. You are correct that it is mentioned he is populist/nationalist elsewhere, but not including a mention of this in the section called &quot;political practice&quot; seems like an oversight. ::The one sentence in question I added was: {{tq|Research has identified Trump's rhetoric as heavily using vitriol, demeaning language, [[false equivalency]], exclusion,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Stuckey |first1=Mary E. |date=20 February 2020 |title=&quot;The Power of the Presidency to Hurt&quot;: The Indecorous Rhetoric of Donald J. Trump and the Rhetorical Norms of Democracy |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/psq.12641 |journal=Presidential Studies Quarterly |volume=50 |issue=2 |access-date=14 September 2024 |pages=366–391 |issn=0360-4918 |doi=10.1111/psq.12641}}&lt;/ref&gt; and [[Nativism (politics)|nativist]]&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Bender |first=Michael C. |date=September 22, 2024 |title=On the Trail, Trump and Vance Sharpen a Nativist, Anti-Immigrant Tone |work=[[The New York Times]] |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/22/us/politics/trump-vance-nativist.html |access-date=September 25, 2024 |quote=Battling in a tight race, the Trump-Vance team is sharpening the anti-immigrant nativism that fueled the former president's initial rise to power in 2016, seizing on scare tactics, falsehoods and racial stereotypes.}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[fearmongering]]{{Efn|Name=&quot;Fearmongering&quot;|Attributed to multiple sources:&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Lim |first1=Hyeyoung |last2=Seungeun Lee |first2=Claire |last3=Kim |first3=Chunrye |date=January 2023 |title=Fear, Political Legitimization, and Racism: Examining Anti-Asian Xenophobia During the COVID-19 Pandemic |journal=Race and Justice |volume=13 |issue=1 |pages=80–104 |issn=2153-3687 |doi=10.1177/21533687221125817 |pmc=9475372}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Bustinza |first1=Monica A. |last2=Witkowski |first2=Kaila |date=19 June 2022 |title=Immigrants, deviants, and drug users: A rhetorical analysis of President Trump's fear-driven tweets during the 2019 government shutdown |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/poi3.313 |journal=Policy &amp; Internet |volume=14 |issue=4 |access-date=14 September 2024 |pages=788–806 |issn=1944-2866 |doi=10.1002/poi3.313}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Nai |first1=Alessandro |last2=Maier |first2=Jürgen |date=4 June 2021 |title=The Wrath of Candidates. Drivers of Fear and Enthusiasm Appeals in Election Campaigns across the Globe |journal=Journal of Political Marketing |volume=23 |issue=1 |pages=74–91 |issn=1537-7857 |doi=10.1080/15377857.2021.1930327 |pmid=38318239 |pmc=10840446 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Jacobsen |first1=Gary C. |date=24 October 2020 |title=Donald Trump and the Parties: Impeachment, Pandemic, Protest, and Electoral Politics in 2020 |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/psq.12682 |journal=Presidential Studies Quarterly |volume=50 |issue=4 |access-date=15 September 2024 |pages=762–795 |issn=0360-4918 |doi=10.1111/psq.12682 |quote=Even if his racially-charged fear-mongering fails to deliver victory, the party image it conveys will not soon fade}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} about immigrants, crime, and minorities as essential to his support.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |last1=Mason |first1=Liliana |last2=Wronski |first2=Julie |last3=Kane |first3=John V. |title=Activating Animus: The Uniquely Social Roots of Trump Support |journal=American Political Science Review |publisher=Cambridge University Press |volume=115 |issue=4 |date=2021 |pages=1508–1516 |doi=10.1017/S0003055421000563 |s2cid=237860170 |quote=Trump's support is thus uniquely tied to animus toward minority groups. Our findings provide insights into the social divisions underlying American politics and the role of elite rhetoric in translating animus into political support.}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |last1=Baker |first1=Joseph O. |last2=Perry |first2=Samuel L. |last3=Whitehead |first3=Andrew L. |title=Keep America Christian (and White): Christian Nationalism, Fear of Ethnoracial Outsiders, and Intention to Vote for Donald Trump in the 2020 Presidential Election |journal=Sociology of Religion |volume=81 |issue=3 |date=14 May 2020 |pages=272–293 |doi=10.1093/socrel/sraa015|quote=In the penultimate year before Trump's reelection campaign, the strongest predictors of supporting Trump, in order of magnitude, were political party, xenophobia, identifying as African American (negative), political ideology, Christian nationalism, and Islamophobia.|hdl=1805/26339 |hdl-access=free }}&lt;/ref&gt;}} The section you removed afterwards was not added by me but already in the article for a while now, and was: &quot;{{tq|Trump uses rhetoric that political scientists have deemed to be both [[Dehumanization|dehumanizing]] and connected to physical violence by his followers.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Nacos |first1=Brigitte L. |last2=Shapiro |first2=Robert Y. |last3=Bloch-Elkon |first3=Yaeli |date=2020 |title=Donald Trump: Aggressive Rhetoric and Political Violence |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/26940036 |journal=Perspectives on Terrorism |volume=14 |issue=5 |pages=2–25 |issn=2334-3745 |jstor=26940036 |access-date=December 16, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Some research suggests Trump's rhetoric caused an increased incidence of hate crimes.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Kunzelman |first1=Michael |last2=Galvan |first2=Astrid |date=August 7, 2019 |title=Trump words linked to more hate crime? Some experts think so |url=https://apnews.com/article/7d0949974b1648a2bb592cab1f85aa16 |access-date=October 7, 2021 |work=[[AP News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Feinberg |first1=Ayal |last2=Branton |first2=Regina |last3=Martinez-Ebers |first3=Valerie |date=March 22, 2019 |title=Analysis &amp;#124; Counties that hosted a 2016 Trump rally saw a 226 percent increase in hate crimes |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/22/trumps-rhetoric-does-inspire-more-hate-crimes/ |access-date=October 7, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; During his 2016 campaign, he urged or praised physical attacks against protesters or reporters.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=White |first=Daniel |date=February 1, 2016 |title=Donald Trump Tells Crowd To 'Knock the Crap Out Of' Hecklers |url=https://time.com/4203094/donald-trump-hecklers/ |access-date=August 9, 2019 |magazine=[[Time (magazine)|Time]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Koerner |first=Claudia |date=October 18, 2018 |title=Trump Thinks It's Totally Cool That A Congressman Assaulted A Journalist For Asking A Question |url=https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/claudiakoerner/trump-gianforte-congressman-assault-journalist-montana |access-date=October 19, 2018 |work=[[BuzzFeed News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Numerous defendants investigated or prosecuted for violent acts and hate crimes, including participants of the January&amp;nbsp;6, 2021, storming of the U.S. Capitol, cited Trump's rhetoric in arguing that they were not culpable or should receive leniency.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Tracy |first=Abigail |date=August 8, 2019 |title=&quot;The President of the United States Says It's Okay&quot;: The Rise of the Trump Defense |url=https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/08/donald-trump-domestic-terrorism-el-paso |access-date=October 7, 2021 |work=[[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Helderman |first1=Rosalind S. |last2=Hsu |first2=Spencer S. |last3=Weiner |first3=Rachel |date=January 16, 2021 |title='Trump said to do so': Accounts of rioters who say the president spurred them to rush the Capitol could be pivotal testimony |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-rioters-testimony/2021/01/16/01b3d5c6-575b-11eb-a931-5b162d0d033d_story.html |access-date=September 27, 2021 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; A nationwide review by ABC News in May 2020 identified at least 54 criminal cases from August 2015 to April 2020 in which Trump was invoked in direct connection with violence or threats of violence mostly by white men and primarily against minorities.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last=Levine |first=Mike |date=May 30, 2020 |title='No Blame?' ABC News finds 54 cases invoking 'Trump' in connection with violence, threats, alleged assaults. |url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/blame-abc-news-finds-17-cases-invoking-trump/story?id=58912889 |access-date=February 4, 2021 |work=[[ABC News (United States)|ABC News]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} ::Going back in the page's edit history I see that '''the section you removed has been in the page for years''' titled &quot;Incitement of violence&quot; since at least 2022 (didn't want to scroll back further). ::I believe that the high-quality sources which were added also warrant the source's inclusion. Claims over fearmongering, for instance, are not mentioned elsewhere but backed up with the research articles provided in this addition. So there is a lot of new material not mentioned elsewhere in the article as well. ::{{sources-talk}}[[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Slight clarification, when I say you removed the section I mean you removed the section as a standalone as it has been since at least 2022 and put it under &quot;rhetoric&quot;. I believe it needs to remain as a standalone subsection as it has been for years. Not sure if that was clear from my prior comment. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 03:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::I don't agree that discussion of specific propaganda techniques should be in this article. I would be fine with moving content from elsewhere in the article into the Political practice section if you feel that is a better organizational approach. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 03:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::I also agree that discussion of specific propaganda techniques should not be in this article. The addition was just a sentence that mentioned that he uses the big lie and firehose of falsehood in the Truthfulness section. No further discussion of those two techniques are included on this page. :::I don't see why mentioning Trump's populism/nationalism can't be mentioned in the Political practice section as well as where it is in the other sections of the page now. A quick search reveals it is only mentioned in the election of 2016 section, one section in his first presidency, and once in the election of 2024 section. If someone wants to go to the Political practice section to learn about Trump's politics, it makes sense for at least a mention of populism/nationalism to be there. Again, I agree we should not be going into great detail here, but I think just mentioning it would be due. This is what my edit does. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 05:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::If it's already mentioned three separate times, we don't need to mention it a fourth - we need to cut down the existing mentions. Consolidating to the Political practice section would be a good way to accomplish that; adding without consolidating would be the wrong way to go. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 05:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::I would be in favor of that proposal, but I am afraid it breaks up the &quot;history&quot; section of the article. If anything, parts of the &quot;Election of 2016&quot; Rhetoric and political positions section should be moved to the political practice section. I would be willing to work on this if you think this is the way to go. I don't want to break any preexisting consensus here [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 20:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::Okay, I went ahead and consolidated the sections as you recommended. I am looking at it and I agree, I think it looks much better now. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 21:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::{{u|BootsED}}, nice to meet you. Apologies in advance if I am mistaken. I was dumbfounded to see that you added 12000+ bytes and a whole lot of cites today. Was that really necessary? Sorry I'm relatively new at Donald Trump but can see much concern about this article being too long. I would feel like I was letting everybody down if I tried to do that. Please don't take offense, I would just like to know what's going on. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 22:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Hi Susan, the edit in question re-added an edit that was under discussion. Some mentions of right-wing populism were merged into the political practice section, where some of the information that was already on the page in various places was placed. The bites included lots of citations, which should be viewed separately from word count. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 23:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::::Thank you, {{u|BootsED}}, that explains it, good. Can you possibly use one or two good sources instead of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=1259187646&amp;oldid=1259187101 five] for one sentence? I have [[Jennifer Mercieca]]'s book ''Demagogue for President: The Rhetorical Genius of Donald Trump'' if you need some help. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 23:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Hi Susan, ideally no more than six sources should be used. The sources are placed within an efn template to avoid cluttering the page. If you'd like to add your source to the page with a short quotation you are more than free to. I am hesitant to remove sources as many of the sentences deal with contentious material that people will attempt to remove claiming that &quot;two sources isn't enough to say this&quot; or something of that nature. This is why for such claims, I prefer to include as many high-quality sources as possible. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 23:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::Clarification, I see you are referring to the media section edit. The two sources up top are directly related to the prior sentence section, and the remaining three are used as the direct sentence preceding it makes claims that are made within those three sources. There are only five sources used, in total, but they are split up to avoid having too many at the end. Other sentences on this page do a similar thing with a similar amount of sources. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 00:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC) :::::::[[User:BootsED|BootsED]], what I proposed was consolidating the existing content, ''not'' re-adding the edit that was under discussion. Given that, and given that it's a violation of the 24-hr BRD, that needs reverting ASAP please. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 00:08, 24 November 2024 (UTC) == &quot;facilitating the January 6 United States Capitol attack&quot; &lt;span class=&quot;anchor&quot; id='The claim that Trump &quot;facilitating the January 6 United States Capitol attack&quot; seems to be just an opinon.'&gt;&lt;/span&gt; == Right now the lead states that Trump facilitated the Jan 6 attack. He has never been convicted of such an act and the lead doesn't give a source. Just seems to be an opinion. Trump has not been convicted of any such crimes in relation to Jan 6. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 09:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Just for starters, you may have noticed that the lead doesn't give ''any'' sources. Related citations are in the supporting body content. &amp;#8213;[[User:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#775C57;&quot;&gt;'''''Mandruss'''''&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#888;&quot;&gt;&amp;#9742;&lt;/span&gt;]] 09:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::well the Stormy Daniels comment does have a link. But regardless, this claim doesn't re appear in the body and so ultimately remains an unsupported opinion/false accusation. Trump has never been found guilty of any such offence. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 22:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Misogyny and cabinet appointments == A misogynist is a person who hates or discriminates against women.[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogynist] In this article there is the section [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;oldid=1259134731#Misogyny_and_allegations_of_sexual_misconduct Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct]. Here are some of the positions where Trump has appointed women to cabinet positions in his next administration so far: Attorney general, Secretary of Homeland Security, Secretary of Labor, Director of National Intelligence, United Nations Ambassador, Secretary of Education, Surgeon General.[https://web.archive.org/web/20241123140506/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/us/politics/trump-administration-cabinet-appointees.html] I don't know of any sources so far that reconcile the characterization of Trump as a misogynist and his cabinet appointments of women, and suggest we be on the lookout for such sources so that the article can be appropriately edited. Thanks. [[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 17:43, 23 November 2024 (UTC) :Bob, this is a &quot;I have black friends so I can't be racist!&quot; fallacy, as women can be misogynist too. It is not a prejudice exclusive to men. But even beyond that, the president-elect nominating women to his administration does not counterbalance his past words and deeds that numerous reliable sources have characterized as misogynist. {{tq|I don't know of any sources...and suggest we be on the lookout for such sources}} suggests that you have already formed a personal opinion about content to add to a BLP, and hope it can someday be validated. That is literally a textbook example of [[confirmation bias]] . [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 18:11, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::This being said there is an issue in misogyny being in wikivoice while every other prejudice/label is attributed. [[User:Rollinginhisgrave|Rollinginhisgrave]] ([[User talk:Rollinginhisgrave|talk]]) 20:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC) ::Well, to be fair, this does just seem like opinion not fact. This isn't supposed to be gossip. Certainly some think he is sexist. But some think he isn't and Wikipedia isn't really supposed to be elevating particular opinions over others. The allegations/liability in sexual misconduct is fact, that bit is solid. [[User:Liger404|Liger404]] ([[User talk:Liger404|talk]]) 23:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == Actions == Not living in the US, I'm not very knowledgeable about American politics, so it seems fair to ask users to list below all the racist, misogynist, etc. ACTIONS that Trump has committed (I see many controversial phrases said by him, but not racist, misogynistic, etc. actions); in reply to [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=1259151827]. [[User:JacktheBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JacktheBrown|talk]]) 17:52, 23 November 2024 (UTC) == There is no evidence Trump is misogynist == Sure, he called certain women horseface, low life on the campaign trail, but not women in general. There is no evidence Trump is misogynist, which would require him calling all women in general certain derogatory phrases. [[Special:Contributions/216.165.197.66|216.165.197.66]] ([[User talk:216.165.197.66|talk]]) 19:49, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_the_United_States&diff=1259211011</id> <title>History of the United States</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_the_United_States&diff=1259211011"/> <updated>2024-11-23T23:46:16Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: rv overdetail <hr /> <div>{{short description|none}} &lt;!-- &quot;none&quot; is preferred when the title is sufficiently descriptive; see [[WP:SDNONE]] --&gt; {{Redirect|American history|the history of the continents|History of the Americas}} {{Further|Economic history of the United States}} {{pp-pc}} {{Use American English|date=July 2024}} {{Use mdy dates|date=July 2024}} [[File:United States (+overseas), administrative divisions - en - colored (zoom).svg|thumb|upright=1.35|Current territories of the United States after the [[Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands]] was given independence in 1994]] {{History of the United States}} The history of the lands that became the [[United States]] began with the arrival of [[Peopling of the Americas|the first people in the Americas]] around 15,000 BC. After [[European colonization of North America]] began in the late 15th century, wars and epidemics decimated Indigenous societies. Starting in [[Roanoke Colony|1585]], the British [[British colonization of the Americas|colonized]] the [[East Coast of the United States|Atlantic Coast]], and by the 1760s, the [[thirteen British colonies]] were established. The [[Southern Colonies]] built an agricultural system on [[Slavery in the United States|slave labor]], [[Atlantic slave trade|enslaving millions from Africa]]. After [[French and Indian Wars|defeating France]], the British [[Parliament of Great Britain|Parliament]] imposed a series of taxes; resistance to these taxes, especially the [[Boston Tea Party]] in 1773, led to Parliament issuing the [[Intolerable Acts]] designed to end self-government. In 1776, the United States [[United States Declaration of Independence|declared its independence]]. Led by General [[George Washington]], it won the [[American Revolutionary War|Revolutionary War]] in 1783. The [[Constitution of the United States|Constitution]] was adopted in 1789, and a [[United States Bill of Rights|Bill of Rights]] was added in 1791 to guarantee [[inalienable rights]]. Washington, the first [[President of the United States|president]], and his adviser [[Alexander Hamilton]] created a strong central government. The [[Louisiana Purchase]] in 1803 doubled the size of the country. Encouraged by available, inexpensive land and the notion of [[manifest destiny]], the country expanded to the [[West Coast of the United States|Pacific Coast]]. The resulting expansion of slavery was increasingly controversial, and fueled political and constitutional battles. After the election of [[Abraham Lincoln]] [[1860 United States presidential election|as president in 1860]], the southern states [[Ordinance of Secession|seceded]] from the Union to form the pro-slavery [[Confederate States of America]], and started the [[American Civil War|Civil War]]. The Confederates' defeat in 1865 led to the [[Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|abolition of slavery]]. In the subsequent [[Reconstruction era]], the national government emerged much stronger, and [[Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|gained explicit duty to protect individual rights]]. White southern Democrats regained their political power in the South in 1877, often using paramilitary [[Voter suppression in the United States|suppression of voting]] and [[Jim Crow laws]] to maintain [[white supremacy]], as well as new [[State constitution (United States)|state constitutions]] that legalized racial discrimination. The United States became the world's leading industrial power in the 20th century, largely due to entrepreneurship, [[Second Industrial Revolution|industrialization]], and the [[European emigration|arrival of millions of immigrant workers and farmers]]. A national railroad network was completed, and large-scale mines and factories were established. Dissatisfaction with corruption, inefficiency, and traditional politics stimulated the [[Progressive Era|Progressive movement]], leading to reforms including the [[federal income tax]], direct election of Senators, citizenship for many Indigenous people, [[Prohibition in the United States|alcohol prohibition]], and [[Women's suffrage in the United States|women's suffrage]]. Initially neutral during [[World War I]], the United States [[American entry into World War I|declared war on Germany]] in 1917, joining the successful [[Allies of World War I|Allies]]. After the prosperous [[Roaring Twenties]], the [[Wall Street Crash of 1929]] marked the onset of the decade-long worldwide [[Great Depression in the United States|Great Depression]]. President [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]]'s [[New Deal]] programs, including unemployment relief and [[Social Security (United States)|social security]], defined [[modern American liberalism]].{{Sfn|Milkis}} Following the [[Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor]], the United States entered [[World War II]], helping defeat [[Nazi Germany]] and [[Fascist Italy]] in the [[European theater]]. In the [[Pacific War]], America defeated [[Imperial Japan]] after using [[nuclear weapon]]s on [[Hiroshima and Nagasaki]]. The United States and the [[Soviet Union]] emerged as rival [[superpower]]s during the [[Cold War]]; the two countries confronted each other indirectly in the [[arms race]], the [[Space Race]], propaganda campaigns, and [[proxy war]]s. In the 1960s, in large part due to the [[civil rights movement]], social reforms enforced the constitutional rights of voting and freedom of movement to African Americans. In the 1980s, [[Ronald Reagan]]'s presidency realigned American politics towards reductions in taxes and regulations. The Cold War ended when the [[dissolution of the Soviet Union|Soviet Union was dissolved in 1991]], leaving the United States as the world's sole superpower. Foreign policy [[Post–Cold War era|after the Cold War]] has often focused on [[List of modern conflicts in the Middle East|many conflicts in the Middle East]], especially after the [[September 11 attacks]]. In the 21st century, the country was negatively affected by the [[Great Recession in the United States|Great Recession]] and the [[COVID-19 pandemic in the United States|COVID-19 pandemic]]. ==Indigenous inhabitants== {{Main|Geological history of North America|History of Native Americans in the United States|Pre-Columbian era}} {{See also|Native Americans in the United States}} [[File:Peopling of America through Beringia.png|thumb|Approximate location of the ice-free corridor and specific Paleoindian sites ([[Clovis culture|Clovis theory]])]] It is not definitively known how or when Native Americans first [[Settlement of the Americas|settled the Americas]]. The prevailing theory proposes that people from [[Eurasia]] followed [[Game (hunting)|game]] across [[Beringia]], a [[land bridge]] that connected [[Siberia]] to present-day [[Alaska]] during the [[Last Glacial Period|Ice Age]], and then spread southward. This migration may have begun as early as 30,000 years ago&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=October 29, 2007 |title=New Ideas About Human Migration From Asia To Americas |work=ScienceDaily |url=https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071025160653.htm |url-status=live |access-date=March 12, 2011 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110225103124/http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071025160653.htm |archive-date=February 25, 2011}}&lt;/ref&gt; and continued to about 10,000 years ago, when the land bridge became submerged by the rising sea level.{{Sfn|Kennedy, Cohen, and Bailey|page=6}} These early inhabitants, called [[Paleo-Indians]], soon diversified into hundreds of culturally distinct groups. ===Paleo-Indians=== {{Main|Pre-Columbian North America}} [[File: North American cultural areas.png|thumb|right|The [[cultural area]]s of [[pre-Columbian North America]], according to [[Alfred Kroeber]]]] By 10,000 BCE, humans were relatively well-established throughout North America. Originally, Paleo-Indians hunted Ice Age [[megafauna]] like [[mammoth]]s, but as they began to go extinct, people turned instead to [[bison]] as a food source, and later foraging for berries and seeds became an important alternative to hunting. Paleo-Indians in central Mexico were the first in the Americas to farm, around 8,000 BCE. Eventually, the knowledge began to spread northward. By 3,000 BCE, corn was being grown in the valleys of [[Arizona]] and [[New Mexico]], followed by primitive [[irrigation]] systems and, by 300 BCE, early villages of the [[Hohokam]].{{Sfn|Outline of American History}}{{Sfn|Chenault}} One of the earlier cultures in the present-day United States was the [[Clovis culture]] (9,100 to 8,850 BCE), who are primarily identified by the use of fluted [[spear]] points called the [[Clovis point]]. The [[Folsom culture]] was similar, but is marked by the use of the [[Folsom point]]. A later migration around 8,000 BCE included [[Na-Dene]]-speaking peoples, who reached the [[Pacific Northwest]] by 5,000 BCE.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Dumond |first=D. E. |date=1969 |title=Toward a Prehistory of the Na-Dene, with a General Comment on Population Movements among Nomadic Hunters |journal=American Anthropologist |volume=71 |issue=5 |pages=857–863 |doi=10.1525/aa.1969.71.5.02a00050 |jstor=670070 |doi-access=free|issn=0002-7294}}&lt;/ref&gt; From there, they migrated along the [[West Coast of the United States|Pacific Coast]] and into the interior and constructed large multi-family dwellings in their villages, which were used only seasonally in the summer to hunt and fish, and in the winter to gather food supplies.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Leer |first1=Jeff |title=Interior Tlingit Noun Dictionary: The Dialects Spoken by Tlingit Elders of Carcross and Teslin, Yukon, and Atlin, British Columbia |last2=Hitch |first2=Doug |last3=Ritter |first3=John |date=2001 |publisher=Yukon Native Language Centre |isbn=1-55242-227-5 |location=[[Whitehorse, Yukon Territory]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Another group, the [[Oshara tradition]] people, who lived from 5,500 BCE to 600 CE, were part of the [[Archaic Southwest]]. ===Mound builders and pueblos=== {{Main|Mound Builders|Ancestral Puebloans}} [[File:Monks Mound in July.JPG|thumb|[[Monks Mound]] of [[Cahokia]] ([[UNESCO World Heritage Site]]) in summer]] The [[Adena culture|Adena]] began constructing large [[Earthworks (archaeology)|earthwork]] mounds around 600 BCE. They are the earliest known people to have been [[Mound Builders]], however, there are [[mound]]s in the United States that predate this culture. [[Watson Brake]] is an 11-mound complex in [[Louisiana]] that dates to 3,500 BCE, and nearby [[Poverty Point]], built by the [[Poverty Point culture]], is an earthwork complex that dates to 1,700 BCE. These mounds likely served a religious purpose. The Adenans were absorbed into the [[Hopewell tradition]], a powerful people who traded tools and goods across a wide territory. They continued the Adena tradition of mound-building and pioneered a trading system called the Hopewell Exchange System, which at its greatest extent ran from the present-day Southeast up to the Canadian side of [[Lake Ontario]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:8&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=Hopewell |url=http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=1283 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110604015341/http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=1283 |archive-date=June 4, 2011 |access-date=December 31, 2015 |publisher=Ohio History Central}}&lt;/ref&gt; By 500 CE, the Hopewellians had been absorbed into the larger [[Mississippian culture]]. The Mississippians were a broad group of tribes. Their most important city was [[Cahokia]], near modern-day [[St. Louis, Missouri]]. At its peak in the 12th century, the city had an estimated population of 20,000, larger than the population of London at the time. The entire city was centered around a [[Monks Mound|mound]] that stood {{Convert|100|ft|m |abbr=}} tall. Cahokia, like many other cities and villages of the time, depended on hunting, foraging, trading, and agriculture, and developed a class system with slaves and human sacrifice that was influenced by societies to the south, like the [[Mayans]].{{Sfn|Outline of American History}} In the [[Southwestern United States|Southwest]], the [[Anasazi]] began constructing stone and adobe pueblos around 900 BCE.&lt;ref name=&quot;eb&quot;&gt;{{Cite encyclopedia |title=Ancestral Pueblo culture |url=https://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/22804/Ancestral-Pueblo-culture |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150429223628/https://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/22804/Ancestral-Pueblo-culture |archive-date=April 29, 2015 |access-date=June 4, 2012 |encyclopedia=[[Encyclopædia Britannica]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; These apartment-like structures were often built into cliff faces, as seen in the [[Cliff Palace]] at [[Mesa Verde]]. Some grew to be the size of cities, with [[Pueblo Bonito]] along the [[Chaco River]] in New Mexico once consisting of 800 rooms.{{Sfn|Outline of American History}} ===Northwest and northeast=== {{Main|Indigenous peoples of the Eastern Woodlands|Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast}} [[File:Tlingit K'alyaan Totem Pole August 2005.jpg|thumb|right|The ''K'alyaan'' [[Totem pole]] of the [[Tlingit]] Kiks.ádi Clan, erected at [[Sitka National Historical Park]] to commemorate the lives lost in the 1804 [[Battle of Sitka]]]] The [[indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest]] were likely the most affluent Native Americans. Many distinct cultural groups and political entities developed there, but they all shared certain beliefs, traditions, and practices, such as the centrality of [[salmon]] as a resource and spiritual symbol. Permanent villages began to develop in this region as early as 1,000 BCE, and these communities celebrated by the gift-giving feast of the [[potlatch]]. In present-day [[upstate New York]], the [[Iroquois]] formed a [[Confederation|confederacy]] of tribal peoples in the mid-15th century, consisting of the [[Oneida Indian Nation|Oneida]], [[Mohawk people|Mohawk]], [[Onondaga people|Onondaga]], [[Cayuga people|Cayuga]], and [[Seneca people|Seneca]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Woods |first=Thomas E |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=dCMcnBRKR-0C&amp;pg=PA62 |title=33 questions about American history you're not supposed to ask |date=2007 |publisher=Crown Forum |isbn=978-0-307-34668-1 |page=62 |access-date=December 31, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160101083603/https://books.google.com/books?id=dCMcnBRKR-0C&amp;pg=PA62 |archive-date=January 1, 2016 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Wright |first=R |title=Stolen Continents: 500 Years of Conquest and Resistance in the Americas |date=2005 |publisher=Mariner Books |isbn=978-0-618-49240-4}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Sfn|Tooker|page=107–128}} Each tribe had seats in a group of 50 [[Sachem|sachem chiefs]]. It has been suggested that their culture contributed to political thinking during the development of the United States government.{{cn|date=November 2024}} The Iroquois were powerful, waging war with many neighboring tribes, and later, Europeans. As their territory expanded, smaller tribes were forced further west, including the [[Osage Nation|Osage]], [[Kaw people|Kaw]], [[Ponca]], and [[Omaha people|Omaha]] peoples.{{Sfn|Tooker|page=107–128}}&lt;ref name=&quot;Burns&quot;&gt;{{Cite encyclopedia |last=Burns |first=LF |title=Osage |url=http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/O/OS001.html |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110102050914/http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/O/OS001.html |archive-date=January 2, 2011 |access-date=November 29, 2010 |encyclopedia=Oklahoma Encyclopedia of History and Culture}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Native Hawaiians=== {{Main|Ancient Hawaii|Hawaiian Kingdom}} The exact date for the settling of Hawaii is disputed but the first settlement most likely took place between 940 and 1130 CE.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Dye |first=Thomas S. |date=2011 |title=A model-based age estimate for Polynesian colonization of Hawai'i |url=http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/j.1834-4453.2011.tb00107.x |journal=Archaeology in Oceania |volume=46 |issue=3 |pages=130–138 |doi=10.1002/j.1834-4453.2011.tb00107.x |issn=0728-4896}}&lt;/ref&gt; Around 1200 CE, [[Tahitians|Tahitian]] explorers found and began settling the area as well establishing a new caste system. This marked the rise of the Hawaiian civilization, which would be largely separated from the rest of the world until the arrival of the British 600 years later.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Kirch |first=Patrick |title=When Did the Polynesians Settle Hawai'i? |url=https://www.academia.edu/1034367}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Conte |first1=Eric |last2=Anderson |first2=Atholl |date=2003 |title=Radiocarbon Ages for Two Sites on Ua Huka, Marquesas |url=http://dx.doi.org/10.1353/asi.2003.0018 |journal=Asian Perspectives |volume=42 |issue=1 |pages=155–160 |doi=10.1353/asi.2003.0018 |hdl=10125/17184 |s2cid=162470429 |issn=1535-8283|hdl-access=free}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Anderson |first1=Atholl |last2=Leach |first2=Helen |last3=Smith |first3=Ian |last4=Walter |first4=Richard |date=1994|title=Reconsideration of the Marquesan sequence in East Polynesian prehistory, with particular reference to Hane (MUH1) |url=http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/arco.1994.29.1.29 |journal=Archaeology in Oceania |volume=29 |issue=1 |pages=29–52 |doi=10.1002/arco.1994.29.1.29 |issn=0728-4896}}&lt;/ref&gt; Europeans under the British explorer [[James Cook]] arrived in the Hawaiian Islands in 1778, and within five years of contact, European military technology would help [[Kamehameha I]] conquer most of the island group, and eventually unify the islands for the first time, establishing the [[Hawaiian Kingdom]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Fitzpatrick |url=http://worldcat.org/oclc/1151955837 |title=Early mapping of Hawaii |date=March 9, 2020 |publisher=Routledge |isbn=978-1-317-72652-4 |oclc=1151955837}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Puerto Rico=== {{Main|History of Puerto Rico|Taino}} The island of Puerto Rico has been settled for at least 4,000 years. Starting with the [[Ortoiroid culture]], successive generations of native migrations arrived replacing or absorbing local populations. By the year 1000 [[Arawak]] people had arrived from South America via the [[Lesser Antilles]]; these settlers would become the [[Taíno]] encountered by the Spanish in 1493. Upon European contact a native population between 30,000 and 60,000 was likely, led by a single chief called a [[Cacique]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Rouse 1992&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Rouse |first=Irving |url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/24469325 |title=The Tainos : rise &amp; decline of the people who greeted Columbus |date=1992 |isbn=0-300-05181-6 |location=New Haven |oclc=24469325}}&lt;/ref&gt; Colonization resulted in the decimation of the local inhabitants due to the harsh [[Encomienda]] system and epidemics caused by Old World diseases. Puerto Rico would remain a part of Spain until American annexation in 1898.&lt;ref name=&quot;Rouse 1992&quot;/&gt; ==European colonization (1075–1754)== {{Main|Colonial history of the United States}} [[File:Mayflower in Plymouth Harbor, by William Halsall.jpg|thumb|The ''[[Mayflower]]'' in Plymouth Harbor. [[Fluyt]]s, [[caravel]]s and [[carrack]]s brought the first Europeans to the Americas.]] ===Norse exploration=== {{Main|Norse colonization of North America}} The earliest recorded European mention of America is in a [[Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum|treatise]] by the medieval chronicler [[Adam of Bremen]], circa 1075, where it is referred to as [[Vinland]].{{Efn|'In addition, he [i.e., [[Sweyn Estridsson]], king of Denmark (reigned 1047–1076)] named one more island in this ocean, discovered by many, which is called &quot;Vinland&quot;, because vines grow wild there, making the best wine. For [that] crops [that are] not sown, abound there, we learn not from fanciful opinion but from the true account of the Danes.'&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=von Bremen |first=Adam |url=https://archive.org/stream/adamvonbremenham00adam#page/274/mode/2up |title=Hamburgische Kirchengeschichte |date=1917 |publisher=Hahnsche |editor-last=Schmeidler |editor-first=Bernhard |publication-place=Hannover and Leipzig |pages=275–276 |language=la, de |trans-title=Hamburg's Church History}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} It is also extensively referred to in the Norse [[Vinland sagas]]. The strongest archaeological evidence of the existence of [[Norsemen|Norse]] settlements in America is located in Canada; there is significant scholarly debate as to whether Norse explorers also made landfall in [[New England]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Linden |first=Eugene |title=The Vikings: A Memorable Visit to America |url=https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-vikings-a-memorable-visit-to-america-98090935 |access-date=May 28, 2020 |website=Smithsonian Magazine}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Early settlements=== {{Main|European colonization of the Americas}} Europeans brought horses, cattle, and hogs to the Americas and took back maize, turkeys, tomatoes, potatoes, tobacco, beans, and [[Cucurbita|squash]] to Europe. Many explorers and early settlers died after being exposed to new diseases in the Americas. However, the effects of new Eurasian diseases carried by the colonists, especially smallpox and measles, were much worse for the Native Americans, as they had no [[immunity (medical)|immunity]] to them. They [[Native American disease and epidemics|suffered epidemics]] and died in very large numbers, usually before large-scale European settlement began. Their societies were disrupted by the scale of deaths.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Byrne |first=Joseph Patrick |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=5Pvi-ksuKFIC&amp;pg=PA415 |title=Encyclopedia of Pestilence, Pandemics, and Plagues |date=2008 |publisher=ABC-CLIO |pages=415–416 |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140101125507/http://books.google.com/books?id=5Pvi-ksuKFIC&amp;pg=PA415 |archive-date=January 1, 2014 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last1=Hinderaker|first1=Eric |last2=Horn |first2=Rebecca |date=2010 |title=Territorial Crossings: Histories and Historiographies of the Early Americas |journal=The William and Mary Quarterly |volume=67 |issue=3 |pages=395 |doi=10.5309/willmaryquar.67.3.395 |jstor=10.5309/willmaryquar.67.3.395}}&lt;/ref&gt; ====Spanish contact==== {{Main|Spanish colonization of the Americas}} [[Conquistador|Spanish explorers]] were the first Europeans, after the Norse, to reach the present-day United States, after the [[voyages of Christopher Columbus]] (beginning in 1492) established [[Spanish West Indies|possessions in the Caribbean]], including the modern-day [[U.S. territories]] of [[Captaincy General of Puerto Rico|Puerto Rico]], and parts of the [[U.S. Virgin Islands]]. [[Juan Ponce de León]] landed in [[Spanish Florida|Florida]] in 1513.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Greenberger |first=Robert |title=Juan Ponce de León: the exploration of Florida and the search for the Fountain of Youth |date=2003}}&lt;/ref&gt; Spanish expeditions quickly reached the [[Appalachian Mountains]], the [[Mississippi River]], the [[Grand Canyon]],&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Pyne |first=Stephen J. |url=https://archive.org/details/howcanyonbecameg00pyne/page/4 |title=How the Canyon Became Grand |date=1998 |publisher=Penguin Books |isbn=978-0-670-88110-9 |publication-place=New York City |pages=[https://archive.org/details/howcanyonbecameg00pyne/page/4 4–7]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and the [[Great Plains]].{{Sfn|Day}} In 1539, [[Hernando de Soto]] extensively explored the Southeast,{{Sfn|Day}} and a year later [[Francisco Coronado]] explored from Arizona to central Kansas in search of gold.{{Sfn|Day}} Escaped horses from Coronado's party spread over the Great Plains, and the Plains Indians mastered horsemanship within a few generations.{{Sfn|Outline of American History}} Small Spanish settlements eventually grew to become important cities, such as [[San Antonio]], [[Albuquerque]], [[Tucson]], Los Angeles, and San Francisco.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Weber |first=David J. |title=New Spain's Far Northern Frontier: Essays on Spain in the American West, 1540–1821 |date=1979}}&lt;/ref&gt; ====Dutch mid-Atlantic==== {{Main|Dutch colonization of the Americas}} [[File:Fort New Amsterdam on the Manhatans (New York) print c1626.jpg|thumb|left|[[New Amsterdam]] in c. 1626]] The [[Dutch East India Company]] sent explorer [[Henry Hudson]] to search for a [[Northwest Passage]] to Asia in 1609. [[New Netherland]] was established in 1621 by the company to capitalize on the [[North American fur trade]]. Growth was slow at first due to mismanagement by the [[Dutch colonization of the Americas|Dutch]] and Native American conflicts. After the Dutch purchased the island of [[Manhattan]] from the Native Americans, the land was named [[New Amsterdam]] and became the capital of New Netherland. The town rapidly expanded and in the mid-1600s it became an important trading center. Despite being [[Calvinists]] and building the [[Reformed Church in America]], the Dutch were tolerant of other religions and cultures and traded with the [[Iroquois]] to the north.{{Sfn|Jacobs}} The colony served as a barrier to British expansion from [[New England Confederation|New England]], and as a result a [[Anglo-Dutch Wars|series of wars]] were fought. The colony was taken over by Britain as [[Province of New York|New York]] in 1664 and its capital was renamed New York City. ====Swedish settlement==== {{Main|New Sweden}} [[File:Nothnagle Log House.JPG|thumb|[[C. A. Nothnagle Log House|Nothnagle Log House]], the oldest wooden building in the United States]] In the early years of the [[Sweden#Swedish Empire|Swedish Empire]], Swedish, Dutch, and German stockholders formed the [[New Sweden Company]] to trade furs and tobacco in North America. The company's first expedition was led by [[Peter Minuit]], who had been governor of New Netherland from 1626 to 1631, and landed in [[Delaware Bay]] in March 1638. The settlers founded [[Fort Christina]] at the site of modern-day [[Wilmington, Delaware]], and made treaties with Indigenous peoples for land ownership on both sides of the [[Delaware River]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:5&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=Brief History of New Sweden in America |url=https://colonialswedes.net/History/History.html |website=colonialswedes.net |access-date=July 18, 2020 |archive-date=September 21, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210921135312/http://www.colonialswedes.net/History/History.html |url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:6&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=The Finns in America. The First Settlers |url=https://www.genealogia.fi/emi/art/article385e.htm |website=www.genealogia.fi |access-date=July 18, 2020 |archive-date=October 1, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201001220039/https://www.genealogia.fi/emi/art/article385e.htm |url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; Over the following seventeen years, 12 more expeditions brought settlers from the Swedish Empire to New Sweden. The colony established 19 permanent settlements along with many farms, extending into modern-day [[Maryland]], [[Pennsylvania]], and [[New Jersey]]. It was incorporated into New Netherland in 1655 after a Dutch invasion from the neighboring New Netherland colony during the [[Second Northern War]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:5&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:6&quot; /&gt; ====French and Spanish ==== [[File:San Pablo Bastion, Castillo de San Marcos.jpg|thumb|The San Pablo Bastion (completed by 1683) of the [[Castillo de San Marcos]] in [[History of St. Augustine, Florida|St. Augustine]], Florida]] [[Giovanni da Verrazzano]] landed in North Carolina in 1524, and was the first European to sail into [[New York Harbor]] and [[Narragansett Bay]]. In the 1540s, French [[Huguenots]] settled at [[Fort Caroline]] near present-day [[Jacksonville]], Florida. In 1565, Spanish forces led by [[Pedro Menéndez]] destroyed the settlement and established the first Spanish settlement in what would become the United States — [[St. Augustine, Florida|St. Augustine]]. Most French lived in [[Quebec]] and [[Acadia]] (modern Canada), but far-reaching trade relationships with Native Americans throughout the Great Lakes and Midwest spread their influence. French colonists in small villages along the Mississippi and [[Illinois River|Illinois]] rivers lived in farming communities that served as a grain source for Gulf Coast settlements. The French established plantations in Louisiana along with settling [[New Orleans]], [[Mobile, Alabama|Mobile]] and [[Biloxi]]. ===British colonies=== {{Further|British colonization of the Americas|British North America}} The English, drawn in by [[Francis Drake]]'s raids on [[Spanish treasure fleet|Spanish treasure ships]] leaving the New World, settled the strip of land along the east coast in the 1600s. The first British colony in North America was established at [[Roanoke Colony|Roanoke]] by [[Walter Raleigh]] in 1585, but failed. It would be twenty years before another attempt.{{Sfn|Outline of American History}} The early British colonies were established by private groups seeking profit, and were marked by starvation, disease, and Native American attacks. Many immigrants were people seeking religious freedom or escaping political oppression, peasants displaced by the [[Industrial Revolution]], or those simply seeking adventure and opportunity. Between the late 1610s and the Revolution, the British shipped an estimated 50,000 to 120,000 convicts to their American colonies.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/1833611 |title=British Convicts Shipped to American Colonies |last=Butler |first=James Davie |date=1896 |journal=American Historical Review |volume=2 |number=1 |pages=12–33|doi=10.2307/1833611 |jstor=1833611 }}; {{cite book |last=Keneally |first=Thomas |author-link=Thomas Keneally |date=2005 |title=[[The Commonwealth of Thieves]] |location=Sydney |publisher=Random House}}&lt;/ref&gt; In some areas, Native Americans taught colonists how to plant and harvest the native crops. In others, they attacked the settlers. Virgin forests provided an ample supply of building material and firewood. Natural inlets and harbors lined the coast, providing easy ports for essential trade with Europe. Settlements remained close to the coast due to this as well as Native American resistance and the Appalachian Mountains in the interior.{{Sfn|Outline of American History}} ====First settlement in Jamestown==== {{Main|Jamestown, Virginia|Colony of Virginia}} [[File:1622 massacre jamestown de Bry.jpg|thumb|The [[Indian massacre of 1622|Indian massacre of Jamestown settlers]] in 1622. Soon the colonists in Virginia feared all natives as enemies.]] The first successful English colony, [[Jamestown, Virginia|Jamestown]], was established by the [[London Company|Virginia Company]] in 1607 on the [[James River]] in [[Virginia]]. The colonists were preoccupied with the search for gold and were ill-equipped for life in the New World. Captain [[John Smith (explorer)|John Smith]] held the fledgling Jamestown together in the first year, and the colony descended into anarchy and nearly failed when he returned to England two years later. [[John Rolfe]] began experimenting with tobacco from the West Indies in 1612, and by 1614 the first shipment arrived in London. It became Virginia's chief source of revenue within a decade. In 1624, after years of disease and Indian attacks, including the [[Powhatan attack of 1622]], King [[James VI and I|James I]] revoked the Virginia Company's charter and made Virginia a royal colony. ====New England Colonies==== {{Main|New England Colonies|Puritan migration to New England (1620–1640)}} [[File:Thanksgiving-Brownscombe.jpg|thumb|left|''The First Thanksgiving at Plymouth'', 1914, [[Pilgrim Hall Museum]]]] [[New England]] was initially settled primarily by [[Puritans]] fleeing religious persecution. The [[Pilgrims (Plymouth Colony)|Pilgrims]] sailed for Virginia on the Mayflower in 1620, but were knocked off course by a storm and landed at [[Plymouth Colony|Plymouth]], where they agreed to a social contract of rules in the [[Mayflower Compact]]. About half died in the first winter.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Mintz |first=Steven |title=Death in Early America |url=http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/usdeath.cfm |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20101230203658/http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/usdeath.cfm |archive-date=December 30, 2010 |access-date=February 15, 2011 |website=Digital History}}&lt;/ref&gt; Like Jamestown, Plymouth suffered from disease and starvation, but local [[Wampanoag]] Indians taught the colonists how to farm maize. Plymouth was followed by the Puritans and [[Massachusetts Bay Colony]] in 1630. They maintained a charter for self-government separate from England, and elected founder [[John Winthrop]] as governor. [[Roger Williams]] opposed Winthrop's treatment of Native Americans and religious intolerance, and established the colony of [[Providence Plantations]], later [[Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations|Rhode Island]], on the basis of freedom of religion. Other colonists established settlements in the [[Connecticut River]] Valley, and on the coasts of present-day [[New Hampshire]] and [[Maine]]. Native American attacks continued, with the most significant occurring in the 1637 [[Pequot War]] and the 1675 [[King Philip's War]]. New England became a center of commerce and industry due to the poor, mountainous soil making agriculture difficult. Rivers were harnessed to power grain mills and sawmills, and the numerous harbors facilitated trade. Tight-knit villages developed around these industrial centers, and [[Boston]] became one of America's most important ports. ====Middle Colonies==== {{Main|Middle Colonies}} [[File:Treaty of Penn with Indians by Benjamin West.jpg|thumb|Treaty of Penn with Indians in the province of Pennsylvania by [[Benjamin West]]]] In the 1660s, the [[Middle Colonies]] of [[Province of New York|New York]], [[Province of New Jersey|New Jersey]], and [[Delaware Colony|Delaware]] were established in the former Dutch New Netherland, and were characterized by a large degree of ethnic and religious diversity. At the same time, the [[Iroquois]] of New York, strengthened by years of fur trading with Europeans, formed the powerful Iroquois Confederacy. The last colony in this region was [[Province of Pennsylvania|Pennsylvania]], established in 1681 by [[William Penn]] as a home for religious dissenters, including [[Quakers]], [[Methodists]], and the [[Amish]].{{Sfn|Middleton and Lombard}} The capital of the colony, [[Philadelphia]], became a dominant commercial center in a few short years. While Quakers populated the city, [[German Americans|German]] immigrants began to flood into the Pennsylvanian hills and forests, while the [[Scotch-Irish Americans|Scots-Irish]] pushed into the far western frontier. ====Southern Colonies==== {{Main|Southern Colonies}} [[File:Gullah s carolina 1790.jpg|thumb|left|&quot;The Old Plantation,&quot; South Carolina, about 1790. [[Gullah]] slaves are playing traditional West Africa instruments resisting forced assimilation from the Planation culture.]] The overwhelmingly rural [[Southern Colonies]] contrasted sharply with the New England and Middle Colonies. After Virginia, the second British colony south of New England was [[Province of Maryland|Maryland]], established as a Catholic haven in 1632. The economy of these two colonies was built entirely on [[yeoman]] farmers and planters. The planters established themselves in the [[Tidewater (region)|Tidewater]] region of Virginia, establishing massive [[Plantation complexes in the Southern United States|plantations]] with slave labor. In 1670, the [[Province of Carolina]] was established, and [[Charleston, South Carolina|Charleston]] became the region's great trading port. While Virginia's economy was also based on tobacco, Carolina was more diversified, exporting rice, indigo, and lumber as well. In 1712, it was divided in two, creating [[Province of North Carolina|North]] and [[Province of South Carolina|South Carolina]]. The [[Georgia Colony]] was established by [[James Oglethorpe]] in 1732 as a border to Spanish Florida and a reform colony for former prisoners and the poor.{{Sfn|Middleton and Lombard}} ====Religion==== {{Main|History of religion in the United States}} Religiosity expanded greatly after the [[First Great Awakening]], a religious revival in the 1740s led by preachers such as [[Jonathan Edwards (theologian)|Jonathan Edwards]] and [[George Whitefield]]. American [[Evangelicals]] affected by the Awakening added a new emphasis on divine outpourings of the [[Holy Spirit in Christianity|Holy Spirit]] and conversions that implanted new believers with an intense love for God. Revivals encapsulated those hallmarks and carried the newly created evangelicalism into the early republic, setting the stage for the [[Second Great Awakening]] in the late 1790s.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Kidd |first=Thomas S. |title=The Great Awakening: The Roots of Evangelical Christianity in Colonial America |url=https://archive.org/details/greatawakeningbr0000kidd |date=2009|publisher=Bedford/St. Martin's |isbn=9780312452254}}&lt;/ref&gt; In the early stages, evangelicals in the South, such as [[Methodists]] and [[Baptists in the United States|Baptists]], preached for religious freedom and abolition of slavery. ====Government==== {{Main|Colonial government in the Thirteen Colonies}} Each of the American colonies had a slightly different governmental structure. Typically, a colony was ruled by a governor appointed from London who controlled the executive administration and relied upon a locally elected legislature to vote on taxes and make laws. By the 18th century, the American colonies were growing very rapidly as a result of low death rates along with ample supplies of land and food. The colonies were richer than most parts of Britain, and attracted a steady flow of immigrants, especially teenagers who arrived as indentured servants.{{Sfn|Savelle|pages=185–190}} ====Servitude and slavery==== {{Main|Indentured servitude in British America|Slavery in the colonial history of the United States}} [[File:Indenturecertificate.jpg|thumb|left|18th century certificate of indentured servitude. At least 500,000 Europeans arrived in North America as indentured servants. This practice declined after the rise of slavery in the colonies.]] Over half of all European immigrants to Colonial America arrived as [[indentured servants]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Barker |first=Deanna |title=Indentured Servitude in Colonial America |url=http://www.geocities.com/nai_cilh/servitude.html |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20091022161033/http://geocities.com/nai_cilh/servitude.html |archive-date=October 22, 2009 |website=National Association for Interpretation, Cultural Interpretation and Living History Section}}&lt;/ref&gt; Typically, people would sign a contract agreeing to a set term of labor, usually four to seven years, and in return would receive transport to America and a piece of land at the end of their servitude. In some cases, ships' captains received rewards for the delivery of poor migrants, and so extravagant promises and kidnapping were common.{{Sfn|Outline of American History}} The first [[Slavery in the United States|African slaves]] arrived in 1619.{{Sfn|Corbett et al.}} Initially regarded as indentured servants who could buy their freedom, the institution of slavery began to harden and the involuntary servitude became lifelong{{Sfn|Corbett et al.}} as the demand for labor on tobacco and rice plantations grew in the 1660s.{{Citation needed |date=August 2020}} Slavery became identified with brown skin color, and the children of slave women were born slaves (''[[partus sequitur ventrem]]'').{{Sfn|Corbett et al.}} By the 1770s African slaves comprised a fifth of the American population. The question of independence from Britain did not arise as long as the colonies needed British military support against the French and Spanish powers. Those threats were gone by 1765. However, London continued to regard the American colonies as existing for the benefit of the mother country in a policy known as [[mercantilism]].{{Sfn|Savelle|pages=185–190}} Colonial America was defined by a severe labor shortage that used forms of [[unfree labor]], such as [[Slavery in the colonial history of the United States|slavery]] and indentured servitude. The British colonies were also marked by a policy of avoiding strict enforcement of parliamentary laws, known as [[salutary neglect]]. This permitted the development of an American spirit distinct from that of its European founders.{{Sfn|Encarta Online}} [[File:Nouvelle-France map-en.svg|thumb|Map of the [[British colonization of the Americas|British]], [[New France|French]] and [[New Spain|Spanish]] settlements in North America in 1750, before the [[French and Indian War]]]] ==Revolutionary period (1754–1793)== {{Main|History of the United States (1776–1789)}} === Lead-up to the Revolution === The [[French and Indian War]] (1754–1763), part of the larger [[Seven Years' War]], was a watershed event in the political development of the colonies. The influence of the French and Native Americans, the main rivals of the [[British Crown]] in the colonies and Canada, was significantly reduced and the territory of the [[Thirteen Colonies]] expanded into [[New France]] in Canada and [[Louisiana (New France)|Louisiana]].{{Citation needed|reason=A separate government was established in Canada called the Province of Quebec under the authority of the British Army and Louisiana was given to Spain. The thirteen colonies didn't gain any territory from this war.here|date=January 2022}} The war effort also resulted in greater political integration of the colonies, as reflected in the [[Albany Congress]] and symbolized by [[Benjamin Franklin]]'s call for the colonies to &quot;[[Join, or Die]].&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Brands |first=H.W. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=TLdOMa1MEqsC&amp;pg=PA232 |title=The First American: The Life and Times of Benjamin Franklin |date=2010 |publisher=Random House Digital, Inc. |isbn=9780307754943 |pages=232–40, 510–512 |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151016105918/https://books.google.com/books?id=TLdOMa1MEqsC&amp;pg=PA232 |archive-date=October 16, 2015 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Boston Tea Party Currier colored.jpg|thumb|An 1846 painting of the 1773 [[Boston Tea Party]]]] [[King George III]] issued the [[Royal Proclamation of 1763]], to organize the new North American empire and protect the Native Americans from colonial expansion west of the Appalachian Mountains. Strains developed in the relations between the colonists and the Crown. The [[British Parliament]] passed the [[Stamp Act of 1765]], imposing a tax on the colonies without going through the colonial legislatures. Crying &quot;[[No taxation without representation]]&quot;, the colonists refused to pay.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Morgan |first=Edmund S. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Qr_ruAAACAAJ |title=The Birth of the Republic, 1763–89 |date=2012 |publisher=U. of Chicago Press |isbn=9780226923420 |edition=4th |pages=14–27 |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151016105918/https://books.google.com/books?id=Qr_ruAAACAAJ |archive-date=October 16, 2015 |url-status=live |orig-date=1956}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Boston Tea Party]] in 1773 was a direct action to protest the new tax on tea. Parliament responded the next year with the [[Intolerable Acts]], stripping Massachusetts of its historic right of self-government and putting it under military rule, which sparked outrage and resistance in all thirteen colonies. [[Patriot (American Revolution)|Patriot]] leaders from every colony convened the [[First Continental Congress]] to coordinate their resistance. The Congress called for a [[Continental Association|boycott of British trade]], published a [[Declaration and Resolves of the First Continental Congress|list of rights and grievances]], and [[Petition to the King|petitioned the king]] to rectify those grievances.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Allison |first=Robert |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=D6x7Cmio5hoC |title=The Boston Tea Party |date=2007 |publisher=Applewood Books |isbn=9781933212111 |pages=47–63 |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151016105918/https://books.google.com/books?id=D6x7Cmio5hoC |archive-date=October 16, 2015 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; This appeal had no effect. === American Revolution === {{Main|American Revolution}} [[File:Declaration of Independence (1819), by John Trumbull.jpg|thumb|[[John Trumbull]]'s ''[[Declaration of Independence (Trumbull)|Declaration of Independence]]'' (1819)]] [[File:Washington Crossing the Delaware by Emanuel Leutze, MMA-NYC, 1851.jpg|thumb|right|[[George Washington's crossing of the Delaware River|Washington's surprise crossing of the Delaware River]] in December 1776 was a major comeback after the loss of New York City; his army defeated the British in two battles and recaptured New Jersey.]] The [[Second Continental Congress]] voted to declare independence on July 2, 1776. The [[United States Declaration of Independence|Declaration of Independence]] presented arguments in favor of the rights of citizens, stating that [[all men are created equal]], supporting the rights of [[Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness]], and demanding the [[consent of the governed]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:02&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Hamowy |first=Ronald |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/book/10.1002/9780470756454 |title=A Companion to the American Revolution |publisher=Blackwell |year=2000 |isbn=9780631210580 |editor-last=Pole |editor-first=J. R. |edition=1st |pages=258–261 |chapter=The Declaration of Independence |doi=10.1002/9780470756454 |editor-last2=Greene |editor-first2=J. P.}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Founding Fathers]] were guided by the ideology of [[republicanism]], rejecting the [[monarchism]] of Great Britain.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Wood |first=Gordon S. |date=1990 |title=Classical Republicanism and the American Revolution |url=https://heinonline.org/HOL/Page?handle=hein.journals/chknt66&amp;id=27&amp;div=&amp;collection= |journal=Chicago-Kent Law Review |volume=66 |pages=13}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Declaration of Independence was [[Signing of the United States Declaration of Independence|signed]] by members of the Congress on July 4.&lt;ref name=&quot;:02&quot; /&gt; This date has since been [[Commemoration of the American Revolution|commemorated]] as [[Independence Day (United States)|Independence Day]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Today in History - July 4 |url=https://www.loc.gov/item/today-in-history/july-04/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221029013828/https://www.loc.gov/item/today-in-history/july-04/ |archive-date=2022-10-29 |access-date=2023-04-27 |website=Library of Congress}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[American Revolutionary War]] began with the [[Battles of Lexington and Concord]] on April 19, 1775.&lt;ref name=&quot;:22&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Conroy |first=David W. |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/book/10.1002/9780470756454 |title=A Companion to the American Revolution |publisher=Blackwell |year=2000 |isbn=9780631210580 |editor-last=Pole |editor-first=J. R. |edition=1st |pages=216–221 |chapter=Development of a revolutionary organization, 1765–1775 |doi=10.1002/9780470756454 |editor-last2=Greene |editor-first2=J. P.}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[George Washington]] was appointed general of the [[Continental Army]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Freeman |first=Douglas S. |title=George Washington: A Biography |date=1948 |isbn=9780678028346 |page=42 |publisher=Augustus M. Kelley |author-link=Douglas Southall Freeman}}&lt;/ref&gt; Washington's [[George Washington's crossing of the Delaware River|crossing of the Delaware River]] began a series of victories that expelled British forces from New Jersey.{{Sfn|Cogliano|2009|pp=101–102}} The British began the [[Saratoga campaign]] in 1777 to capture [[Albany, New York]], as a [[choke point]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Snow |first=Dean R. |title=1777: Tipping Point at Saratoga |publisher=Oxford University Press |year=2016 |isbn=9780190618759 |pages=7–9}}&lt;/ref&gt; After American [[Battles of Saratoga|victory at Saratoga]], France, the Netherlands, and Spain began providing support to the Continental Army.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Jones |first=Howard |title=Crucible of power: a history of American foreign relations to 1913 |date=2001 |isbn=9780842029186 |page=12|publisher=Rowman &amp; Littlefield}}&lt;/ref&gt; Britain responded to defeat in the [[Northern theater of the American Revolutionary War|northern theater]] by advancing in the [[Southern theater of the American Revolutionary War|southern theater]], beginning with the [[Capture of Savannah]] in 1778.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Lumpkin |first=Henry |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=lnwsAAAAMAAJ |title=From Savannah to Yorktown: The American Revolution in the South |publisher=University of South Carolina Press |year=1981 |isbn=978-0-87249-408-4 |pages=27–30 |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; American forces reclaimed the south in 1781, and the British Army was defeated in the [[Siege of Yorktown]] on October 19, 1781.{{Sfn|Cogliano|2009|p=110}} King George III formally ordered the end of hostilities on December 5, 1782, recognizing American independence.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Morris |first=Richard Brandon |url=https://archive.org/details/peacemakersgrea00morr |title=The Peacemakers: The Great Powers and American Independence |publisher=Harper &amp; Row |year=1965 |edition=1st |pages=411–412}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Treaty of Paris (1783)|Treaty of Paris]] was signed on September 3, 1783,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2022-05-10 |title=Treaty of Paris (1783) |url=https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/treaty-of-paris |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221031123838/https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/treaty-of-paris |archive-date=2022-10-31 |access-date=2023-04-28 |website=National Archives |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; and was ratified by the [[Congress of the Confederation]] on January 14, 1784.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=The Confederation Congress's Ratification of the &quot;Treaty of Paris&quot; |url=https://history.house.gov/Historical-Highlights/1700s/The-Continental-Congress-s-ratification-of-the-%E2%80%9CTreaty-of-Paris%E2%80%9D/ |url-status= |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221103022351/https://history.house.gov/Historical-Highlights/1700s/The-Continental-Congress-s-ratification-of-the-%E2%80%9CTreaty-of-Paris%E2%80%9D/ |archive-date=2022-11-03 |website=US House of Representatives: History, Art &amp; Archives |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File: United States land claims and cessions 1782-1802.png|thumb|The United States after the [[Treaty of Paris (1783)]], with individual state claims and cessions through 1802]] ===Confederation period=== {{Main|Confederation period}}The [[Articles of Confederation]] were ratified as the governing law of the United States, written to limit the powers of the central government in favor of states. This caused [[Financial costs of the American Revolutionary War|economic decline]], as the government was unable to pass economic legislation and pay its debts.&lt;ref name=&quot;:52&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Van Cleve |first=George William |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=5r0lEAAAQBAJ |title=We Have Not a Government: The Articles of Confederation and the Road to the Constitution |publisher=University of Chicago Press |year=2019 |isbn=9780226641522 |pages=2–7 |access-date=2022-11-03 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230120192825/https://www.google.com/books/edition/We_Have_Not_a_Government/5r0lEAAAQBAJ |archive-date=2023-01-20 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Nationalists worried that the [[Confederation|confederate]] nature of the union was too fragile to withstand an armed conflict with any adversarial states, or even internal revolts such as [[Shays' Rebellion]] of 1786 in Massachusetts.{{Sfnp|Greene|Pole|2003}} In the 1780s the western regions were ceded by the states to Congress and became territories. With the migration of settlers to the Northwest, soon they became [[U.S. state|states]].{{Sfnp|Greene|Pole|2003}} The [[American Indian Wars]] continued in the 1780s as settlers moved west.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Grenier |first=John |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=JGCin1JJp8cC |title=The First Way of War: American War Making on the Frontier, 1607–1814 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |year=2005 |isbn=9781139444705 |pages=146–148 |access-date=2022-11-06 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230120192830/https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_First_Way_of_War/JGCin1JJp8cC |archive-date=2023-01-20 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Northwestern Confederacy]] and American settlers began fighting the [[Northwest Indian War]] in the late 1780s; the Northwestern Confederacy received British support, but the settlers received little assistance from the American government.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Herring |first=George |title=From Colony to Superpower: U.S. Foreign Relations Since 1776 |date=2008 |isbn=9780199743773 |pages=43–44, 61–62 |publisher=Oxford University Press |author-link=George C. Herring}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Taylor |first=Alan |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=E92aCwAAQBAJ |title=American Revolutions: A Continental History, 1750-1804 |publisher=W. W. Norton &amp; Company |year=2016 |isbn=978-0-393-25387-0 |pages=343 |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Nationalists – most of them war veterans – organized in every state and convinced Congress to call the [[Philadelphia Convention]] in 1787. The delegates from every state wrote a new [[Constitution of the United States|Constitution]] that created a federal government with a strong president and powers of taxation. The new government reflected the prevailing republican ideals of guarantees of [[Natural rights and legal rights|individual liberty]] and of constraining the power of government through [[separation of powers]].{{Sfnp|Greene|Pole|2003}} The constitution was ratified by a sufficient number of states in 1788 to begin forming a federal government.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Countryman |first=Edward |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=m_fuBSLGMgIC |title=The American Revolution |date=1985 |publisher=Macmillan |isbn=978-0-8090-2563-3 |pages=193–196 |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; == Early republic (1793–1830) == [[File:GROWTH1850.JPG|thumb|Economic growth in America per capita income. Index with 1700 set as 100.]]{{Main article|History of the United States (1789–1815)}} The [[United States Electoral College]] chose George Washington as the first [[President of the United States|President]] in 1789.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Berkin |first=Carol |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=dBqPVWAD51cC |title=A Brilliant Solution: Inventing the American Constitution |date=2002 |publisher=Houghton Mifflin Harcourt |isbn=978-0-15-602872-1 |pages=192 |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The national capital moved from New York to Philadelphia in 1790 and finally to Washington, D.C., in 1800. The major accomplishment of the [[Washington Administration]] was creating a strong national government that was recognized by all Americans.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=McDonald |first=Forrest |title=The Presidency of George Washington |url=https://archive.org/details/presidencyofgeo000mcdo |date=1974 |location=Lawrence, KS |publisher=University Press of Kansas |isbn=9780700601103}}&lt;/ref&gt; His government, following the vigorous leadership of Treasury Secretary [[Alexander Hamilton]], assumed the debts of the states, created the [[First Bank of the United States|Bank of the United States]], and set up a uniform system of [[tariff]]s and other taxes to pay off the debt and provide a financial infrastructure. To support his programs Hamilton created the [[Federalist Party]]. To assuage the [[Anti-Federalists]] who feared a too-powerful central government, the Congress adopted the [[United States Bill of Rights]] in 1791, which guaranteed individual liberties such as freedom of speech and religious practice.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Labunski |first=Richard |title=James Madison and the Struggle for the Bill of Rights |date=2008}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Thomas Jefferson]] and [[James Madison]] formed an opposition Republican Party (usually called the [[Democratic-Republican Party]]). Hamilton and Washington presented the country in 1794 with the [[Jay Treaty]] that reestablished good relations with Britain. The Jeffersonians vehemently protested, and the voters aligned behind one party or the other, thus setting up the [[First Party System]].&lt;ref name=&quot;in JSTOR&quot; /&gt; The treaty passed, but politics became intensely heated.{{Sfn|Miller}} Serious challenges to the new federal government included the [[Northwest Indian War]], the ongoing [[Cherokee–American wars]], and the 1794 [[Whiskey Rebellion]], in which western settlers protested against a federal tax on liquor.{{Sfn|Lesson Plan on Washington}} Washington refused to serve more than two terms – setting a precedent.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=George Washington's Farewell Address |url=http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/farewell |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080527211849/http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/farewell |archive-date=May 27, 2008 |access-date=June 7, 2008 |website=Archiving Early America}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[John Adams]], a Federalist, defeated Jefferson in the 1796 election. War loomed with France and the Federalists used the opportunity to try to silence the Republicans with the [[Alien and Sedition Acts]], build up a large army with Hamilton at the head, and prepare for a French invasion. However, the Federalists became divided after Adams sent a successful peace mission to France that ended the [[Quasi-War]] of 1798.&lt;ref name=&quot;in JSTOR&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Smelser |first=Marshall |date=1959 |title=The Jacobin Phrenzy: The Menace of Monarchy, Plutocracy, and Anglophilia, 1789–1798 |journal=The Review of Politics |volume=21 |issue=1 |pages=239–258 |doi=10.1017/S003467050002204X |jstor=1405347|s2cid=144230619}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=McCullough |first=David |title=[[John Adams]] |date=2008 |chapter=10 |author-link=David McCullough}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Increasing demand for slave labor=== {{Main|Slavery in the United States}} [[File:Crowe-Slaves Waiting for Sale - Richmond, Virginia.jpg|thumb|''Slaves Waiting for Sale: Richmond, Virginia'' (by [[Eyre Crowe (painter)|Eyre Crowe]])]] During the first two decades after the Revolutionary War, there were dramatic changes in the status of slavery among the states and an increase in the number of [[Free negro|freed black]]s. Inspired by revolutionary ideals of equality and influenced by their lesser economic reliance on slavery, northern states abolished slavery. States of the [[Upper South]] made [[manumission]] easier, resulting in an increase in the proportion of [[free blacks]] in the Upper South (as a percentage of the total non-white population) from less than one percent in 1792 to more than 10 percent by 1810. By that date, a total of 13.5 percent of all blacks in the United States were free.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Kolchin |first=Peter |title=American Slavery, 1619–1877 |url=https://archive.org/details/americanslavery10000kolc |date=1993 |publisher=Hill and Wang |location=New York |pages=[https://archive.org/details/americanslavery10000kolc/page/79 79]–81 |author-link=Peter Kolchin}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1807, with four million slaves already in the United States, Congress severed the U.S.'s involvement with the [[Atlantic slave trade]].&lt;ref name=&quot;pbs&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |date=January 25, 2007 |title=Interview: James Oliver Horton: Exhibit Reveals History of Slavery in New York City |url=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/social_issues/jan-june07/divided_01-25.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131223050216/http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/social_issues/jan-june07/divided_01-25.html |archive-date=December 23, 2013 |access-date=February 11, 2012 |website=[[PBS Newshour]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Second Great Awakening=== {{Main|Second Great Awakening}} [[File:Camp meeting.jpg|thumb|A drawing of a Protestant camp meeting (by H. Bridport, [[Wiktionary:circa|c.]] 1829)]] The Second Great Awakening was a Protestant revival movement that affected virtually all of society during the early 19th century and led to rapid church growth. The movement began around 1790, gained momentum by 1800, and, after 1820 membership rose rapidly among [[Baptists in the United States|Baptist]] and [[Methodist]] congregations, whose preachers led the movement. It was past its peak by the 1840s.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Ahlstrom |first=Sydney |url=https://archive.org/details/religioushistory0000ahls_h4c4 |title=A Religious History of the American People |date=1972 |pages=[https://archive.org/details/religioushistory0000ahls_h4c4/page/415 415]–471}}&lt;/ref&gt; It enrolled millions of new members in existing evangelical denominations and led to the formation of new denominations. The Second Great Awakening stimulated the establishment of many reform movements – including [[Abolitionism in the United States|abolitionism]] and [[Temperance movement|temperance]] designed to remove the evils of society before the anticipated [[Second Coming]] of Jesus Christ.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Smith |first=Timothy L. |url=https://archive.org/details/revivalismandsoc012498mbp |title=Revivalism and Social Reform: American Protestantism on the Eve of the Civil War |date=1957 |publisher=Harper Torchbooks}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Louisiana and Jeffersonian republicanism=== {{Main|Presidency of Thomas Jefferson|Louisiana Purchase}} [[File:U.S._Territorial_Acquisitions.png|thumb|Territorial expansion; [[Louisiana Purchase]] in white]] Jefferson defeated Adams massively for the presidency in the [[1800 United States presidential election|1800 election]]. Jefferson's major achievement as president was the [[Louisiana Purchase]] in 1803, which provided U.S. settlers with vast potential for expansion west of the Mississippi River.{{Sfn|Wood, Empire of Liberty |page=368–374}} Jefferson supported expeditions to explore and map the new domain, most notably the [[Lewis and Clark Expedition]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Ambrose |first=Stephen E. |title=Undaunted Courage: Meriwether Lewis, Thomas Jefferson, and the Opening of the American West |url=https://archive.org/details/undauntedcourag000ambr |date=1997 |publisher=Simon and Schuster |isbn=9780684811079 |author-link=Stephen E. Ambrose}}&lt;/ref&gt; Jefferson believed deeply in [[Republicanism in the United States|republicanism]] and argued it should be based on the independent [[yeoman]] farmer and planter; he distrusted cities, factories and banks. He also distrusted the federal government and judges, and tried to weaken the judiciary. Although the Constitution specified a [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]], its functions were vague until [[John Marshall]], the [[Chief Justice of the United States]] (1801–1835), defined them, especially the power to overturn acts of Congress or states that violated the Constitution, first enunciated in 1803 in ''[[Marbury v. Madison]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Smith |first=Jean Edward |title=John Marshall: Definer of a Nation |url=https://archive.org/details/johnmarshalldefi00jean |date=1998 |pages=[https://archive.org/details/johnmarshalldefi00jean/page/309 309]–326|publisher=Macmillan |isbn=9780805055108}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===War of 1812=== {{Main|War of 1812}} {{See also|The United States and the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars}} Americans were increasingly angry at the British violation of American ships' neutral rights to hurt France, the [[impressment]] (seizure) of 10,000 American sailors needed by the [[Royal Navy]] to fight Napoleon, and British support for hostile Indians attacking American settlers in the [[American Midwest]] with the goal of creating a pro-British [[Indian barrier state]] to block American expansion westward. They may also have desired to annex all or part of [[British North America]], although this is still heavily debated.{{Sfn|Stagg, Madison's War|page=4}}&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |title=Manifest Destiny and the Expansion of America |url=https://archive.org/details/turningpointsact00carl_912 |publisher=ABC-CLIO |year=2007 |isbn=9781851098330 |editor-last=Carlisle |editor-first=Rodney P. |page=[https://archive.org/details/turningpointsact00carl_912/page/n64 44] |ref={{SfnRef|Carlisle and Golson}} |editor-last2=Golson |editor-first2=J. Geoffrey}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Pratt |first=Julius W. |title=Expansionists of 1812 |date=1925}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Heidler |first1=David |title=The War of 1812 |last2=Heidler |first2=Jeanne T. |page=4}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Tucker |first=Spencer |title=The Encyclopedia of the War of 1812 |page=236}}&lt;/ref&gt; Despite strong opposition from the [[Northeastern United States|Northeast]], especially from Federalists who did not want to disrupt trade with Britain, Congress declared war on June 18, 1812.{{Sfn|Wood, Empire of Liberty}} [[File:Battle erie.jpg|thumb|[[Oliver Hazard Perry]]'s message to [[William Henry Harrison]] after the [[Battle of Lake Erie]] began with: &quot;We have met the enemy and they are ours&quot; (by [[William H. Powell]], 1865).&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=&quot;We have met the enemy and they are ours&quot; (U.S. National Park Service) |url=https://www.nps.gov/articles/met-the-enemy-4.htm |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180818083855/https://www.nps.gov/articles/met-the-enemy-4.htm |archive-date=August 18, 2018 |access-date=August 18, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;]] Both sides tried to invade the other and were repulsed. The American militia proved ineffective because the soldiers were reluctant to leave home and efforts to invade Canada repeatedly failed. The British blockade ruined American commerce, bankrupted the Treasury, and further angered New Englanders, who smuggled supplies to Britain. The Americans under General [[William Henry Harrison]] finally [[Battle of Lake Erie|gained naval control of Lake Erie]] and defeated the Indians under [[Tecumseh]] in Canada,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Smelser |first=Marshall |date=March 1969 |title=Tecumseh, Harrison, and the War of 1812 |url=http://purl.dlib.indiana.edu/iudl/imh/printable/VAA4025-065-1-a02 |journal=Indiana Magazine of History |volume=65 |issue=1 |pages=25–44 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200325223126/http://fedora.dlib.indiana.edu:8080/iudl-dissem/pdf?fullItemId=%2Fimh%2FVAA4025-065-1-a02 |archive-date=March 25, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; while [[Andrew Jackson]] ended the Indian threat in the Southeast. The Indian threat to expansion into the Midwest was permanently ended. The British invaded and occupied much of Maine. The [[Burning of Washington|British raided and burned Washington]], but were [[Battle of Baltimore|repelled at Baltimore]] in 1814 – where the [[The Star-Spangled Banner|&quot;Star Spangled Banner&quot;]] was written to celebrate the American success. In upstate New York a major British invasion of New York State was turned back at the [[Battle of Plattsburgh]]. Finally in early 1815 Andrew Jackson decisively defeated a major British invasion at the [[Battle of New Orleans]].{{Sfn|Stagg, War of 1812}} Americans claimed victory on February 18, 1815, as news came almost simultaneously of Jackson's victory of New Orleans and the [[Treaty of Ghent|peace treaty]] that left the prewar boundaries in place. This &quot;second war of independence&quot; helped lead to an emerging American identity that cemented national pride over state pride.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|last=Remini|first=Robert V.|url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/167504400|title=A Short history of the United States|date=2008|publisher=HarperCollins Publishers|isbn=978-0-06-083144-8|edition=1st|location=New York|pages=74–75|oclc=167504400}}&lt;/ref&gt; The War of 1812 also destroyed America's negative perception of a [[standing army]] as opposed to ill-equipped and poorly-trained militias.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Langguth |first=A.J. |title=Union 1812: The Americans Who Fought the Second War of Independence |url=https://archive.org/details/union181200ajla |date=2006 |chapter=24|publisher=Simon and Schuster |isbn=9780743226189}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Era of Good Feelings=== {{Main|Era of Good Feelings}} [[File:Election Day 1815 by John Lewis Krimmel.jpg|thumb|Depiction of election-day activities in [[Philadelphia]] (by [[John Lewis Krimmel]], 1815)]] National euphoria after the victory at New Orleans ruined the prestige of the Federalists and they no longer played a significant role as a political party.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Banner |first=James |title=To the Hartford Convention: the Federalists and the Origins of Party Politics in Massachusetts, 1789–1815 |url=https://archive.org/details/tohartfordconven0000bann |date=1969}}&lt;/ref&gt; President Madison and most Republicans realized they were foolish to let the [[First Bank of the United States]] close down, for its absence greatly hindered the financing of the war. With the assistance of foreign bankers, they chartered the [[Second Bank of the United States]] in 1816.{{Sfn|Dangerfield}}{{Sfn|Goodman|pp=56–89}} The Republicans also imposed tariffs designed to protect the infant industries that had been created when Britain was blockading the U.S. With the collapse of the Federalists as a party, the adoption of many Federalist principles by the Republicans, and the systematic policy of President [[James Monroe]] in his two terms (1817–1825) to downplay partisanship, society entered an [[Era of Good Feelings]] and closed out the [[First Party System]].{{Sfn|Dangerfield}}{{Sfn|Goodman|pp=56–89}} The [[Monroe Doctrine]], expressed in 1823, proclaimed the United States' opinion that European powers should no longer colonize or interfere in the Americas. This was a defining moment in [[foreign policy of the United States|US foreign policy]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Gilderhus |first=Mark T. |date=March 2006 |title=The Monroe Doctrine: Meanings and Implications |journal=Presidential Studies Quarterly |volume=36 |issue=1 |pages=5–16 |doi=10.1111/j.1741-5705.2006.00282.x}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1832, President [[Andrew Jackson]] ran for a second term under the slogan &quot;Jackson and no bank&quot; and did not renew the charter of the Second Bank, dissolving the bank in 1836.&lt;ref name=&quot;North Carolina History&quot; /&gt; Jackson was convinced that central banking was used by the elite to take advantage of the average American, and instead implemented publicly owned banks in various states, popularly known as &quot;pet banks&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;North Carolina History&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=Andrew Jackson |url=http://www.northcarolinahistory.org/encyclopedia/769/entry |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160127032954/http://www.northcarolinahistory.org/encyclopedia/769/entry |archive-date=January 27, 2016 |website=North Carolina History Project}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Expansion and reform (1830–1848)== {{Main|History of the United States (1815–1849)}} ===Second Party System=== {{Main|Second Party System|Presidency of Andrew Jackson}} The former Jeffersonian (Democratic-Republican) party split into factions over the choice of a successor to President [[James Monroe]], and the party faction that supported many of the old Jeffersonian principles, led by [[Andrew Jackson]] and [[Martin Van Buren]], became the Democratic Party. As Norton explains the transformation in 1828: {{Blockquote |Jacksonians believed the people's will had finally prevailed. Through a lavishly financed coalition of state parties, political leaders, and newspaper editors, a popular movement had elected the president. The Democrats became the nation's first well-organized national party, and tight party organization became the hallmark of nineteenth-century American politics.{{Sfn|Norton et al.}}}}Opposing factions led by [[Henry Clay]] helped form the [[Whig Party (United States)|Whig Party]]. The Democratic Party had a small but decisive advantage over the [[Whig Party (United States)|Whigs]] until the 1850s, when the Whigs fell apart over the issue of slavery. ===Westward expansion and manifest destiny=== {{Main|American frontier|Manifest destiny|Indian removal}} [[File:Trails of Tears en.png|thumb|The Indian Removal Act resulted in the transplantation of several [[Native Americans in the United States|Native American tribes]] and the [[Trail of Tears]].|left]] The country grew rapidly in population and area, as pioneers pushed the frontier of settlement west.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Hine |first1=Robert V. |title=Frontiers: A Short History of the American West |last2=Faragher |first2=John Mack |date=2008}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |title=The New Encyclopedia of the American West |date=1998 |editor-last=Lamar |editor-first=Howard R.}}&lt;/ref&gt; Native American tribes in some places resisted militarily, but they were overwhelmed by settlers and the army, and after 1830, were relocated to reservations in the west.{{Sfn|Hine and Faragher, American West |page=10}} That year, Congress passed the [[Indian Removal Act]], which authorized the president to negotiate treaties that exchanged Native American tribal lands in the eastern states for lands west of the Mississippi River.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Heidler |first1=David |title=Indian Removal |last2=Heidler |first2=Jeanne T. |date=2006}}&lt;/ref&gt; Its goal was primarily to remove Native Americans, including the [[Five Civilized Tribes]], from desirable lands in the American Southeast.&lt;ref name=&quot;:7&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Remini |first=Robert Vincent |title=Andrew Jackson and His Indian Wars |date=2002}}&lt;/ref&gt; Thousands of deaths resulted from the relocations, as seen in the Cherokee [[Trail of Tears]],&lt;ref name=&quot;:7&quot; /&gt; which resulted in approximately 2,000 to 8,000 of the 16,543 relocated [[Cherokee]] dying along the way.{{Sfn|Stannard|1993 |p=124}}{{Sfn|Thornton| page=75–93}} Many of the [[Seminole Indians]] in Florida refused to move west, and fought the Army for years in the [[Seminole Wars]]. [[File:1850 Woman and Men in California Gold Rush.jpg|thumb|The [[California Gold Rush]] news of gold brought some 300,000 people to California from the rest of the United States and abroad.]] The first settlers in the west were the [[Spanish in New Mexico]] (&quot;[[Californios]]&quot;), followed by over 100,000 [[California Gold Rush]] miners ('49ers). California grew rapidly, and by 1880, San Francisco had become the economic hub of the Pacific Coast, with a diverse population of a quarter million. From the early 1830s to 1869, the [[Oregon Trail]] and its offshoots were used by over 300,000 settlers headed to California, Oregon, and other points in the far west. [[Wagon train|Wagon-trains]] took five or six months on foot.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Unruh |first=John David |title=[[The Plains Across|The Plains Across: The Overland Emigrants on the Trans-Mississippi West, 1840–1860]] |date=1993 |isbn=978-0-252-06360-2 |page=120|publisher=University of Illinois Press}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Clay44b.jpg|thumb|[[Horace Greeley]]'s ''New York Tribune''—the leading [[Whig Party (United States)|Whig]] paper—endorsing [[Henry Clay]] for president in 1844]] [[Manifest destiny]] was the belief that American settlers were destined to expand across the continent. This concept was born out of &quot;a sense of mission to redeem the [[Old World]] by high example ... generated by the potentialities of a new earth for building a new heaven&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Merk |first1=Frederick |title=Manifest Destiny and Mission in American History: A Reinterpretation |last2=Merk |first2=Lois Bannister |date=1995 |publisher=[[Harvard University Press]] |isbn=9780674548053 |page=3 |orig-date=1963}}&lt;/ref&gt; Manifest destiny was rejected by modernizers, especially the Whigs like [[Henry Clay]] and [[Abraham Lincoln]] who wanted to build cities and factories – not more farms.{{Efn|[[Daniel Walker Howe|Howe]] argued that, &quot;American imperialism did not represent an American consensus; it provoked bitter dissent within the national polity.&quot;{{Sfn|Howe|page=798}}}} [[History of the Democratic Party (United States)|Democrats]] strongly favored expansion, and won the key [[1844 United States presidential election|election of 1844]]. After a bitter debate in Congress, the [[Texas annexation|Republic of Texas was annexed]] in 1845, leading to the [[Mexican–American War]].{{Sfn|Hine and Faragher, American West&lt;!--chapter=6–7--&gt;}} The U.S. Army invaded Mexico at several points, [[Battle for Mexico City|captured Mexico City]], and won the war decisively. The [[Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo]] ended the war in 1848. Many Democrats wanted to annex all of Mexico, but that idea was rejected by [[White Southerners]], who argued that incorporating millions of [[Mexican people]], mainly of mixed race, would undermine the U.S. as an exclusively white republic.{{Sfn|Howe|page=798}} Instead, the [[Texas annexation|U.S. took Texas]] and the lightly settled northern parts (California and New Mexico). Simultaneously, gold was discovered in California in 1848. To clear the state for settlers, the U.S. government began a policy of extermination since termed the [[California genocide]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last=Madley |first=Benjamin |date=2016 |title=An American Genocide: The United States and the California Indian Catastrophe, 1846–1873}}&lt;/ref&gt; A peaceful compromise with Britain gave the U.S. ownership of the [[Oregon Country]], which was renamed the [[Oregon Territory]].{{Sfn|Hine and Faragher, American West}} [[File:Nebel_Mexican_War_12_Scott_in_Mexico_City.jpg|thumb|The American occupation of [[Mexico City]] in 1848|left]] The demand for [[guano]] (prized as an agricultural [[fertilizer]]) led the U.S. to pass the [[Guano Islands Act]] in 1856, which enabled U.S. citizens to take possession, in the name of the country, of unclaimed islands containing guano deposits. Under the act, the U.S. annexed nearly 100 islands in the Pacific Ocean and the Caribbean Sea. By 1903, 66 of these islands were recognized as US territories.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Vandermeer |first=John |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=AFRQSuQGHiIC |title=The Ecology of Agroecosystems |date=2011 |publisher=Jones &amp; Bartlett Learning |isbn=9780763771539 |page=149}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Women's suffrage in the United States|women's suffrage movement]] began with the 1848 National Convention of the [[Liberty Party (United States, 1840)|Liberty Party]]. Presidential candidate [[Gerrit Smith]] established women's suffrage as a party goal. One month later, the [[Seneca Falls Convention]] was organized, signing the [[Declaration of Sentiments]] demanding equal rights for women, including the right to vote.{{Efn|The [[Seneca Falls Convention]] was preceded by the [[Anti-Slavery Convention of American Women]] in 1837 held in New York City, at which women's rights issues were debated, especially African-American women's rights.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Gordon |first1=Ann D. |title=African American women and the vote, 1837–1965 |last2=Collier-Thomas |first2=Bettye |date=1997 |publisher=University of Massachusetts Press |isbn=978-1-55849-059-8 |pages=[https://archive.org/details/africanamericanw0000unse_q4k8/page/2 2–9] |chapter=Introduction |author-link=Ann D. Gordon |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/africanamericanw0000unse_q4k8/page/2}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} The women's rights campaign during [[first-wave feminism]] was led by [[Elizabeth Cady Stanton]], [[Lucy Stone]] and [[Susan B. Anthony]], among others. Stone and [[Paulina Wright Davis]] organized the prominent and influential [[National Women's Rights Convention]] in 1850.&lt;ref name=&quot;:11&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Mead |first=Rebecca J. |title=How the Vote Was Won: Woman Suffrage in the Western United States, 1868–1914 |date=2006}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Civil War and Reconstruction (1848–1877)== === Divisions between North and South === {{Main|Origins of the American Civil War|History of the United States (1849–1865)|Abolitionism in the United States}} {{See also|Plantation complexes in the Southern United States|Proslavery thought|Antebellum South}}[[File:US Secession map 1863 (BlankMap derived).png|thumb|right|United States map, 1863 {{Legend|#002255| Union states}} {{Legend|#6895c9| Union territories not permitting slavery}} {{Legend|#ffff00| Border Union states, permitting slavery}} {{Legend|#dd5500| Confederate states}} {{Legend|#EDB360| Union territories permitting slavery (claimed by Confederacy)}}]] [[File:Narrativeofthelife 07 douglass 64kb.ogg|thumb|Excerpt of ''[[Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass]]'', a major inspiration for the [[American abolitionist movement]]]] The central issue after 1848 was the expansion of slavery, with the anti-slavery elements in the North pitted against the pro-slavery elements in the South.&lt;ref name=&quot;:32&quot; /&gt; By 1860, there were four million slaves in the South, nearly eight times as many as there were nationwide in 1790.{{Citation needed|date=June 2024}} A small number of active Northerners were [[Abolitionism in the United States|abolitionists]] who followed [[William Lloyd Garrison]], and declared that ownership of slaves was a sin and demanded its immediate abolition. Much larger numbers in the North were against the expansion of slavery, seeking to put it on the path to extinction so that America would be committed to free land (as in low-cost farms owned and cultivated by a family), [[free labor]], and [[Freedom of speech in the United States|free speech]] (as opposed to censorship of abolitionist material in the South).&lt;ref name=&quot;:32&quot; /&gt; However, before 1860, only a minority of Northern white people supported abolition, which was often seen as a 'radical' measure. There were violent reactions to abolitionist advocates in the North, notably the burning of an anti-slavery society in [[Pennsylvania Hall (Philadelphia)|Pennsylvania Hall]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Farrow |first=Anne |url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/58526694 |title=Complicity : how the North promoted, prolonged, and profited from slavery |date=2005 |publisher=Ballantine Books |others=Joel Lang, Jenifer Frank |isbn=0-345-46782-5 |edition=1st |location=New York |oclc=58526694}}&lt;/ref&gt; There was resistance to slavery by both peaceful and violent means. [[Slave rebellion and resistance in the United States|Slave rebellions]], by [[Gabriel Prosser]] (1800), [[Denmark Vesey]] (1822), [[Nat Turner's slave rebellion|Nat Turner]] (1831), and [[John Brown's raid on Harpers Ferry|John Brown]] (1859) caused fear in the white South, which imposed stricter oversight of slaves and reduced the rights of free Black people.{{Citation needed|date=June 2024}} Former slaves [[Frederick Douglass]] and [[Harriet Tubman]] became leading advocates for abolition.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Lee. |url=http://worldcat.org/oclc/1229562995 |title=The Cambridge Companion to Frederick Douglass |date=2009 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |isbn=978-0-521-71787-8 |oclc=1229562995}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Ruuth |first=Marianne |url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/26768053 |title=Frederick Douglass |date=1991 |isbn=0-87067-582-6 |edition=Illustrated |location=Los Angeles, California |oclc=26768053}}&lt;/ref&gt; The issue was discussed in the best-selling anti-slavery novel ''[[Uncle Tom's Cabin]]'' by [[Harriet Beecher Stowe]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:33&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Bordewich |first=Fergus M. |title=America's Great Debate: Henry Clay, Stephen A. Douglas, and the Compromise That Preserved the Union |date=2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Southern Democrats|Southern white Democrats]] insisted that slavery was of economic, social, and cultural benefit to all white people and even to the slaves themselves.&lt;ref name=&quot;:32&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Forret |first=Jeff |title=Slavery in the United States |date=2012 |publisher=Facts on File}}&lt;/ref&gt; Justifications of slavery included history, religion, legality, [[Slavery as a positive good in the United States|social good]], and economics. Defenders argued that the sudden end to the slave economy would have had a fatal economic impact in the South, and there would be widespread unemployment and chaos; slave labor was the foundation of their economy.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=The Southern Argument for Slavery |url=http://www.ushistory.org/us/27f.asp |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170608013217/http://www.ushistory.org/us/27f.asp |archive-date=June 8, 2017 |access-date=June 3, 2017 |website=USHistory.org}}&lt;/ref&gt; Southern slavery-based societies had become wealthy based on their cotton and other agricultural [[commodity]] production, as well as the internal slave trade. The [[Plantation complexes in the Southern United States|plantations]] were highly profitable, due to the heavy European demand for raw cotton. Northern cities and regional industries were tied economically to slavery by banking, shipping, and manufacturing, including [[textile mills]]. In addition, southern states benefited by their increased apportionment in Congress due to the partial counting of slaves in their populations. [[File:Remember Your Weekly Pledge Massachusetts Anti-Slavey Society collection box.jpg|thumb|left|200px|''Remember Your Weekly Pledge'', collection box for [[Massachusetts Anti-Slavery Society]], 1850]] Religious activists were split on slavery, with the [[Methodists]] and [[Baptists in the United States|Baptists]] dividing into northern and southern denominations. In the North, the Methodists, [[Congregationalists]], and [[Quakers]] included many [[abolitionists]], especially among women activists. The [[Catholic Church in the United States|Catholic]], [[Episcopal Church (United States)|Episcopal]], and [[Lutheran]] denominations largely ignored the issue.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Sensbach |first=Jon |date=January 2000 |editor-last=Snay |editor-first=Mitchell |title=Review of John R. McKivigan: Religion and the Antebellum Debate Over Slavery |url=http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=3744 |journal=H-SHEAR, H-Net Reviews |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130117042507/http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=3744 |archive-date=January 17, 2013}}&lt;/ref&gt; The issue of slavery in the new territories was seemingly settled by the [[Compromise of 1850]], brokered by Whig Henry Clay and Democrat [[Stephen Douglas]]; the Compromise included the admission of California as a [[Slave states and free states|free state]] in exchange for no federal restrictions on slavery placed on Utah or New Mexico.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=The Compromise of 1850 |url=http://www.ushistory.org/us/30d.asp |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170602064405/http://www.ushistory.org/us/30d.asp |archive-date=June 2, 2017 |access-date=June 3, 2017 |website=USHistory.org}}&lt;/ref&gt; A point of contention was the [[Fugitive Slave Act]], which required the states to cooperate with slave owners when attempting to recover escaped slaves. Formerly, an escaped slave that reached a non-slave state was presumed to have attained sanctuary and freedom under the [[Missouri Compromise]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:34&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=D. |first=Rotunda, Ronald |url=http://worldcat.org/oclc/769785178 |title=Treatise on constitutional law : substance and procedure |date=1992 |publisher=West Pub. Co |isbn=0-314-00805-5 |oclc=769785178}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:35&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=Republican Party Platform of 1860 |url=https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/republican-party-platform-1860 |access-date=2022-09-22 |website=The American Presidency Project}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:33&quot; /&gt; The [[Compromise of 1820]] was repealed in 1854 with the [[Kansas–Nebraska Act]], promoted by Stephen Douglas in the name of &quot;[[Popular sovereignty in the United States|popular sovereignty]]&quot; and democracy. It permitted voters to decide on the legality of slavery in each territory, and allowed Douglas to adopt neutrality on the issue of slavery. Anti-slavery forces rose in anger and alarm, forming the new [[History of the Republican Party (United States)|Republican Party]]. Pro- and anti- contingents rushed to Kansas to vote for or against slavery, resulting in a miniature civil war called [[Bleeding Kansas]]. By the late 1850s, the young Republican Party dominated nearly all northern states, and thus, the electoral college. It insisted that slavery would never be allowed to expand, and thus would slowly die out.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Etcheson |first=Nicole |title=Bleeding Kansas: Contested Liberty in the Civil War Era |date=2006}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Supreme Court's 1857 decision in ''[[Dred Scott v. Sandford]]'' ruled that the Compromise was unconstitutional and that free Black people were not U.S. citizens; the decision enraged Northerners. The Republicans worried the decision could be used to expand slavery throughout all states and territories. With Senator [[Abraham Lincoln]] leading criticism of the ruling, the stage was set for the [[1860 presidential election]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:34&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:35&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:33&quot; /&gt; === Civil War === {{Main|American Civil War|Confederate States of America|1860 United States presidential election}} {{See also|Union Army|Confederate States Army|Military history of African Americans in the American Civil War}} ==== Start of the war ==== [[File:CSA states evolution.gif|thumb|Evolution of the [[Confederate States of America|Confederate States]] between December 1860 and July 1870]] After Abraham Lincoln won the [[1860 United States presidential election|1860 election]], seven Southern states [[seceded]] from the Union in the first of two waves of secession and formed a sovereign state, the [[Confederate States of America]] (Confederacy), on February 8, 1861.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-05-28 |title=Confederate States of America - History, President, Map, Facts, &amp; Flag |url=https://www.britannica.com/topic/Confederate-States-of-America |access-date=2024-06-12 |website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[American Civil War|Civil War]] began on April 12, 1861, when [[Battle of Fort Sumter|Confederate forces attacked a U.S. military installation at Fort Sumter]] in South Carolina. In response, Lincoln [[President Lincoln's 75,000 volunteers|called on the states]] to send troops to recapture forts, protect Washington D.C., and &quot;preserve the Union,&quot; which in his view still existed despite the secession.{{Sfn|Guelzo, Fateful Lightning}} Lincoln's call led to four more states seceding in a second wave of secession and joining the Confederacy. A few of the (northernmost) slave states did not secede and became known as the [[Border states (American Civil War)|border states]]; these were Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri.{{Citation needed|date=June 2024}} During the war, the northwestern portion of Virginia seceded from the Confederacy, which became the new Union state of [[West Virginia]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Stampp |first=Kenneth |title=The Causes of the Civil War |date=2008}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:PinkertonLincolnMcClernand.jpg|thumb|upright|[[Abraham Lincoln]] with [[Allan Pinkerton]] and [[John Alexander McClernand]] at the [[Battle of Antietam]], 1862]] The two armies' first major battle was the [[First Battle of Bull Run]], which proved to both sides that the war would be much longer than anticipated.{{Sfn|Guelzo, Fateful Lightning}} In the [[Western Theater of the American Civil War|western theater]], the [[Union Army]] was relatively successful, with major battles such as [[Battle of Perryville|Perryville]] and [[Battle of Shiloh|Shiloh]], along with [[Union Navy]] gunboat dominance of navigable rivers producing strategic Union victories and destroying major Confederate operations.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Woodworth |first=Stephen E. |title=Decision in the Heartland: The Civil War in the West |date=2011}}&lt;/ref&gt; Warfare in the [[Eastern Theater of the American Civil War|eastern theater]] began poorly for the Union. U.S. General [[George B. McClellan]] failed to capture the Confederate capital of [[Richmond, Virginia]], in his [[Peninsula campaign]] and [[Seven Days Battles|retreated after attacks]] from Confederate General [[Robert E. Lee]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Catton |first=Bruce |title=The Army of the Potomac: Mr. Lincoln's Army |url=https://archive.org/details/brucecatton0000unse |date=1962}}&lt;/ref&gt; Meanwhile, in 1861 and 1862, both sides concentrated on raising and training new armies. The Union successfully gained control of the border states, driving the Confederates out.&lt;ref name=&quot;:10&quot;&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=McPherson |first=James M. |title=To Conquer a Peace? |magazine=[[Civil War Times]] |volume=46 |pages=26–33 |author-link=James M. McPherson |issue=2 |orig-date=March–April 2007}}&lt;/ref&gt; The autumn 1862 Confederate retreat at the [[Battle of Antietam]] led to Lincoln's warning he would issue the [[Emancipation Proclamation]] in January 1863 if the states did not return. Making slavery a central war goal energized Northern Republicans, as well as their enemies, the anti-war [[Copperhead (politics)|Copperhead]] Democrats. It ended the chance of [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland|British]] and [[France|French]] intervention.&lt;ref name=&quot;:10&quot; /&gt; Lee's smaller [[Army of Northern Virginia]] won battles in late 1862 and spring 1863, but he pushed too hard and ignored the Union threat in the west. He [[Gettysburg campaign|invaded Pennsylvania]] in search of supplies and to cause [[war-weariness]] in the North.&lt;ref name=&quot;:27&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=The New York City Draft Riots of 1863 |url=https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html |access-date=2022-09-24 |website=press.uchicago.edu}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Emancipation Proclamation ==== {{Emancipation Proclamation draft}} The Emancipation Proclamation was an [[Executive order|executive order]] issued by Lincoln on January 1, 1863. It freed 3 million slaves in designated areas of the Confederacy. The owners were not compensated. Plantation owners, realizing that emancipation would destroy their economic system, sometimes moved their slaves as far as possible from the Union army.{{Sfn|Guelzo, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation}} [[File:The Emancipation Proclamation - read by Winston Tharp for LibriVox's Short Nonfiction Collection Vol. 028 (2013).ogg |alt=Emancipation Proclamation |thumb|Modern reading of President [[Abraham Lincoln]]'s 1863 [[Emancipation Proclamation]]]] In perhaps the [[turning point of the American Civil War|turning point of the war]], Lee's army was badly beaten by the [[Army of the Potomac]] at the July 1863 [[Battle of Gettysburg]], and barely made it back to Virginia.&lt;ref name=&quot;:10&quot; /&gt; Survivors of the battle were immediately redeployed to suppress the [[New York City draft riots]] by Irish Americans protesting [[Conscription in the United States|Civil War conscription]] and the city's free Black population.&lt;ref name=&quot;:27&quot; /&gt; In July 1863, Union forces under General [[Ulysses S. Grant]] gained control of the Mississippi River at the [[Battle of Vicksburg]], thereby splitting the Confederacy. In 1864, Union General [[William Tecumseh Sherman]] marched south from [[Chattanooga]] to capture [[Atlanta]], a decisive victory that ended war jitters among Republicans in the North and helped Lincoln [[1864 United States presidential election|win re-election]]. [[File:Savannah Campaign.png|thumb|A map of [[Sherman's March to the Sea]] ([[William Tecumseh Sherman]]'s 1863 Union troop movement across Georgia)|left]] ==== End of the war ==== {{Main article|End of the American Civil War|End of slavery in the United States}} The Civil War was the world's earliest [[industrial warfare|industrial war]]. Railroads, the [[telegraph]], steamships, and mass-produced weapons were employed extensively. Civilian factories, mines, shipyards, and were mobilized.&lt;ref name=&quot;:30&quot; /&gt; Foreign trade increased, with the U.S. providing both food and cotton to Britain, and Britain sending in manufactured products and thousands of volunteers for the Union Army (and a few to the [[Confederate army]]). The Union blockade shut down Confederate ports, and by late 1864, the British [[blockade runner]]s supplying Confederates were usually captured before they could make more than a handful of runs. [[File:General Robert E. Lee surrenders at Appomattox Court House 1865.jpg|thumb|[[Robert E. Lee]] and the Confederates surrendering to the Union after the [[Battle of Appomattox Court House]], 1865]] [[Sherman's march to the sea]] was almost unopposed, and demonstrated that the South was unable to resist a Union invasion. Much of the South was destroyed, and could no longer provide desperately needed supplies to its armies. In spring 1864, Grant launched a [[war of attrition]] and pursued Lee to the final [[Appomattox campaign]], which resulted in Lee [[Battle of Appomattox Court House|surrendering]] in April 1865.{{Citation needed|date=June 2024}} By June 1865, the Union Army controlled all of the Confederacy and liberated all of the designated slaves.{{Sfn|Guelzo, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation}} It remains the deadliest war in American history, resulting in the deaths of about 750,000 soldiers and an undetermined number of [[civilian casualties]].{{Efn|A new way of calculating casualties by looking at the deviation of the death rate of men of fighting age from the norm through analysis of census data found that at least 627,000 and at most 888,000 people, but most likely 761,000 people, died through the war.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Hacker |first=J. David |date=September 20, 2011 |title=Recounting the Dead |work=[[New York Times]] |url=https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/20/recounting-the-dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20171220224039/https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/20/recounting-the-dead |archive-date=December 20, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Hacker |first=J. David |date=2011 |title=A census-based count of the Civil War dead |journal=Civil War History |volume=57 |issue=4 |pages=307–48 |doi=10.1353/cwh.2011.0061 |pmid=22512048|s2cid=30195230}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} About ten percent of all Northern males 20–45 years old, and thirty percent of all Southern white males aged 18–40 died.&lt;ref name=&quot;:30&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Huddleston |first=John |title=Killing Ground: The Civil War and the Changing American Landscape |url=https://archive.org/details/killinggroundpho0000hudd |date=2002 |page=[https://archive.org/details/killinggroundpho0000hudd/page/3 3]|publisher=JHU Press |isbn=9780801867736}}&lt;/ref&gt; Northern military deaths were greater than Southern military deaths in absolute numbers, but were two-thirds smaller in terms of proportion of the population affected. Many Black people died after being dislocated during the war and Reconstruction.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Downs |first=Jim |title=Sick from Freedom: African-American Illness and Suffering during the Civil War and Reconstruction |date=2015}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Reconstruction === {{Main|Reconstruction era|History of the United States (1865–1918)}} [[Reconstruction era|Reconstruction]] lasted from the end of the war until [[Compromise of 1877|1877]].{{Sfn|Guelzo, Fateful Lightning}}&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Foner |first=Eric |title=A Short History of Reconstruction |url=https://archive.org/details/shorthistoryofre00eric |date=1990 |publisher=Harper &amp; Row |isbn=9780060964313 |author-link=Eric Foner}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Summers |first=Mark Wahlgren |title=The Ordeal of the Reunion: A New History of Reconstruction |date=2014}}&lt;/ref&gt; Lincoln had to decide the statuses of the ex-slaves (&quot;[[Freedmen]]&quot;), ex-Confederates, and ex-Confederate states. He supported the [[Ten Percent Plan]] for states' re-admission, and the right of Black people to vote.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-06-05 |title=Reconstruction - Definition, Summary, Timeline &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/Reconstruction-United-States-history |access-date=2024-06-12 |website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Lincoln was [[Assassination of Abraham Lincoln|assassinated]] in April 1865 by [[John Wilkes Booth]], and succeeded by [[Andrew Johnson]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-05-28 |title=Assassination of Abraham Lincoln - Summary, Conspirators, Trial, Impact, &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/assassination-of-Abraham-Lincoln |access-date=2024-06-12 |website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;[[File:FreedmenVotingInNewOrleans1867.jpeg|thumb|[[Freedmen]] voting in New Orleans, 1867]] The severe threats of starvation and displacement of the unemployed Freedmen were met by the first major federal relief agency, the [[Freedmen's Bureau]], operated by the Army.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Cimbala |first=Paul A. |title=The Freedmen's Bureau: Reconstructing the American South after the Civil War |date=2005}}&lt;/ref&gt; The bureau also took in freed slaves.{{Citation needed|date=June 2024}} Three &quot;[[Reconstruction Amendments]]&quot; expanded civil rights for black Americans: the 1865 [[Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Thirteenth Amendment]] outlawed slavery;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Thirteenth Amendment - Definition, Significance, &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/topic/Thirteenth-Amendment |access-date=2024-06-12 |website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; the 1868 [[Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Fourteenth Amendment]] guaranteed equal rights for all and citizenship for Black people;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-05-08 |title=Fourteenth Amendment - Definition, Summary, Rights, Significance, &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/topic/Fourteenth-Amendment |access-date=2024-06-12 |website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; the 1870 [[Fifteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Fifteenth Amendment]] prevented race from being used to disenfranchise men.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-05-02 |title=Fifteenth Amendment - Definition, Significance, &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/topic/Fifteenth-Amendment |access-date=2024-06-12 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Ex-Confederates remained in control of most Southern states for over two years, until the [[Radical Republicans]] gained control of Congress in the [[1866 elections]]. Johnson, who sought good treatment for ex-Confederates, was virtually powerless in the face of Congress; [[Impeachment of Andrew Johnson|he was impeached]], but the Senate's [[Impeachment trial of Andrew Johnson|attempt to remove him]] from office failed by one vote. Congress enfranchised black men and temporarily banned many ex-Confederate leaders from holding office. New Republican governments came to power based on a coalition of Freedmen made up of [[Carpetbagger]]s (new arrivals from the North), and [[Scalawag]]s (native white Southerners). They were backed by the Army. Opponents said they were corrupt and violated the rights of whites.{{Sfn|Rable}} [[File:East west shaking hands by russell.jpg|thumb|The completion of the [[first transcontinental railroad]] in 1869]] After the war, the far west was developed and settled, first by wagon trains and riverboats, and then by the [[first transcontinental railroad]]. Many Northern European immigrants took up low-cost or free farms in the Prairie States. Mining for silver and copper encouraged development.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=The First Measured Century: An Illustrated Guide to Trends in America, 1900–2000 |url=https://www.pbs.org/fmc/book/1population10.htm |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170815021759/http://www.pbs.org/fmc/book/1population10.htm |archive-date=August 15, 2017 |website=[[Public Broadcasting Service]] (PBS)}}&lt;/ref&gt; ====KKK and the rise of Jim Crow laws==== {{Main|Ku Klux Klan|Jim Crow laws|Nadir of American race relations}} [[File:Kkk-carpetbagger-cartoon.jpg|thumb|A cartoon from [[Tuscaloosa, Alabama|Tuscaloosa]]'s ''Independent Monitor'' in 1868, threatening that the [[First Klan|KKK]] will [[Lynching|lynch]] [[scalawag]]s (left) and [[carpetbagger]]s (right) the day [[Ulysses S. Grant|President Grant]] takes office in 1869]] State by state, the New Republicans lost power to a conservative-Democratic coalition, which gained control of the South by 1877. In response to Radical Reconstruction, the [[Ku Klux Klan]] (KKK) emerged in 1867 as a white-supremacist organization opposed to black civil rights and Republican rule. President Ulysses Grant's enforcement of the [[Ku Klux Klan Act]] of 1870 shut them down.{{Sfn|Rable}} Paramilitary groups, such as the [[White League]] and [[Red Shirts (United States)|Red Shirts]] emerging around 1874, openly intimidated and attacked Black people voting, to regain white political power in states across the South. One historian described them as the military arm of the Democratic Party.{{Sfn|Rable}} Reconstruction ended after the disputed [[1876 United States presidential election|1876 election]]. The [[Compromise of 1877]] gave Republican candidate [[Rutherford B. Hayes]] the presidency in exchange for removing all remaining federal troops in the South. The federal government withdrew its troops, and Southern Democrats took control of the region&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Ayers |first=Edward L. |title=The Promise of the New South: Life After Reconstruction |url=https://archive.org/details/promiseofnewso00ayer |date=1992 |pages=[https://archive.org/details/promiseofnewso00ayer/page/3 3]–54|publisher=Oxford University Press |isbn=978-0-19-503756-2}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1882, the United States passed the [[Chinese Exclusion Act]] (which barred all Chinese immigrants except for students and businessmen),&lt;ref name=&quot;Anderson Diplomacy&quot;&gt;{{cite journal|first=David L.|last=Anderson|title=The Diplomacy of Discrimination: Chinese Exclusion, 1876–1882|journal=California History|volume=57|issue=1|year=1978|pages=32–45|doi=10.2307/25157814|jstor=25157814}}&lt;/ref&gt; and the [[Immigration Act of 1882]] (which barred all immigrants with mental health issues).&lt;ref&gt;Roger Daniels and Otis L. Graham, Debating American Immigration, 1882–present (Lanham, MD: Rowman &amp; Littlefield, 2001), 14.&lt;/ref&gt; From 1890 to 1908, southern states effectively [[Disenfranchisement after the Reconstruction era|disenfranchised]] Black and poor white voters by making voter registration more difficult through [[Poll taxes in the United States|poll taxes]] and [[literacy test]]s. Black people were segregated from whites in the violently-enforced [[Jim Crow]] system that lasted until roughly 1968.{{Sfn|Vann Woodward}}&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Jim Crow Laws - Causes and Effects |url=https://www.britannica.com/summary/Jim-Crow-Laws-Causes-and-Effects |access-date=2024-06-12 |website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Gilded Age and the Progressive Era (1877–1914)== {{Main|Gilded Age|Progressive Era|Second Industrial Revolution}} === After Reconstruction === {{multiple image | align = right | image1 = The Breakers Newport.jpg | width1 = 220 | alt1 = The Breakers in New Port, Rhode Island | caption1 = [[The Breakers]], built by the wealthy railroad [[Vanderbilt family]], constructed in 1895. An example of [[Conspicuous consumption]] and [[Social stratification]] of the late 19th century. | image2 = Mulberry Street NYC c1900 LOC 3g04637u edit.jpg | width2 = 200 | alt2 = [[Manhattan]], turn of the 20th century | caption2 = [[Mulberry Street (Manhattan)|Mulberry Street]], along which Manhattan's [[Little Italy, Manhattan|Little Italy]] is centered. [[Lower East Side]], circa 1900. The tenements of lower Manhattan were often unsanitary and unsafe.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2019-05-17 |title=The Early Tenements of New York—Dark, Dank, and Dangerous |url=https://www.archives.nyc/blog/2019/5/16/the-early-tenements-of-new-yorkdark-dank-and-dangerous |access-date=2023-09-24 |website=NYC Department of Records &amp; Information Services |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; | direction = vertical }} The &quot;[[Gilded Age]]&quot; was a term that [[Mark Twain]] used to describe the period of the late 19th century with a dramatic expansion of American wealth and prosperity, underscored by the mass corruption in the government.&lt;ref name=&quot;:28&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Trachtenberg |first=Alan |title=The Incorporation of America: Culture and Society in the Gilded Age |date=2007}}&lt;/ref&gt; Some historians have argued that the United States was effectively [[plutocratic]] for at least part of the Gilded Age and [[Progressive Era]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Pettigrew |first=Richard Franklin |title=Triumphant Plutocracy: The Story of American Public Life from 1870 to 1920 |date=2010 |publisher=Nabu Press |isbn=978-1146542746}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |title=Historical dictionary of the Gilded Age |date=2003 |publisher=M.E. Sharpe |isbn=978-0765603319 |editor-last=Schlup |editor-first=Leonard |publication-place=Armonk, N.Y. |pages=145 |editor-last2=Ryan |editor-first2=James G.}}, (foreword by Vincent P. De Santis)&lt;/ref&gt;{{Sfn|Beard}} As financiers and industrialists such as [[J.P. Morgan]] and [[John D. Rockefeller]] began to amass vast fortunes, many observers were concerned that the nation was losing its pioneering egalitarian spirit.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Piketty |first=Thomas |title=[[Capital in the Twenty-First Century]] |date=2014 |publisher=[[Belknap Press]] |isbn=978-0674430006 |pages=[https://archive.org/details/isbn_9780674430006/page/348 348]–349 |author-link=Thomas Piketty}}&lt;/ref&gt; An unprecedented wave of [[immigration to the United States|immigration]] from Europe served to both provide the labor for American industry and create diverse communities in previously undeveloped areas. From 1880 to 1914, peak years of immigration, more than 22 million people migrated to the country.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Growth of U.S. Population |url=http://www.theusaonline.com/people/growth.htm |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20100123083235/http://www.theusaonline.com/people/growth.htm |archive-date=January 23, 2010 |website=TheUSAonline.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; By 1890, American industrial production and per capita income exceeded those of all other countries.{{Citation needed|date=June 2024}} Most were unskilled workers who quickly found jobs in mines, mills, and factories. Many immigrants were craftsmen and farmers (especially from Britain, Germany, and Scandinavia) who purchased inexpensive land on the prairies. Poverty, growing inequality and dangerous working conditions, along with [[History of the socialist movement in the United States|socialist]] and [[Anarchism in the United States|anarchist]] ideas diffusing from European immigrants, led to the rise of the [[Labor history of the United States|labor movement]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Bacon |first=Katie |date=June 12, 2007 |title=The Dark Side of the Gilded Age |magazine=[[The Atlantic]] |url=https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/06/the-dark-side-of-the-gilded-age/306012 |access-date=March 24, 2014 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161223114403/http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/06/the-dark-side-of-the-gilded-age/306012 |archive-date=December 23, 2016}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Sfn|Zinn|pages=264–282}}&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last=Fraser |first=Steve |title=The Age of Acquiescence: The Life and Death of American Resistance to Organized Wealth and Power |publisher=[[Little, Brown and Company]] |year=2015 |isbn=978-0-316-18543-1 |page=66}}&lt;/ref&gt; Dissatisfaction on the part of the growing middle class with the corruption and inefficiency of politics, and the failure to deal with increasingly important urban and industrial problems, led to the dynamic [[progressive movement]] starting in the 1890s. In every major city, and at the federal level, progressives called for the modernization and reform of decrepit institutions in the fields of politics, education, medicine, and industry.&lt;ref name=&quot;digital history progressive&quot; /&gt; [[File:Thejungle 09 sinclair 64kb.ogg|thumb|Chapter 9 of ''[[The Jungle]]'', a 1906 [[muckraking]] novel by [[Upton Sinclair]] describing corruption in the Gilded Age]] Leading politicians from both parties, most notably Republicans [[Theodore Roosevelt]], [[Charles Evans Hughes]], and [[Robert La Follette]], and Democrats William Jennings Bryan and [[Woodrow Wilson]], took up the cause of progressive reform.&lt;ref name=&quot;digital history progressive&quot; /&gt; [[Muckraker|&quot;Muckraking&quot; journalists]] such as [[Upton Sinclair]], [[Lincoln Steffens]] and [[Jacob Riis]] exposed corruption in business and government, and highlighted rampant inner-city poverty. Progressives implemented antitrust laws and regulated such industries of meat-packing, drugs, and railroads. Four new constitutional amendments – the [[Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Sixteenth]] through [[Nineteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Nineteenth]] – resulted from progressive activism, bringing the [[federal income tax]], direct election of Senators, prohibition, and female suffrage.&lt;ref name=&quot;digital history progressive&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Mintz |first=Steven |date=2006 |title=Learn About the Progressive Era |url=http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/modules/progressivism/index.cfm |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20071012035636/http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/modules/progressivism/index.cfm |archive-date=October 12, 2007 |access-date=February 6, 2008 |website=Digital History |publisher=[[University of Houston]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1881, President [[James A. Garfield]] was assassinated by [[Charles Guiteau]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=James A. Garfield - 20th President, Assassination, Civil War |url=https://www.britannica.com/biography/James-A-Garfield/Presidency |access-date=2024-06-09 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; ====Unions and strikes==== {{Main|Labor history of the United States|Union violence in the United States}} [[File:940721-remington-givingthemthebutt-harpersweekly.jpg|thumb|Violence erupted on July 7, 1894, with hundreds of boxcars and coal cars looted and burned. State and federal troops violently attacked striking workers, as this study by [[Frederic Remington]] illustrates.|left]] Skilled workers banded together to control their crafts and raise wages by forming labor unions in industrial areas of the Northeast. [[Samuel Gompers]] led the [[American Federation of Labor]] (1886–1924), coordinating multiple unions. In response to heavy debts and decreasing farm prices, wheat and cotton farmers joined the [[People's Party (United States)|Populist Party]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Mintz |first=Steven |date=June 5, 2008 |title=Learn About the Gilded Age |url=http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/modules/gilded_age/index.cfm |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080516192932/http://digitalhistory.uh.edu/modules/gilded_age/index.cfm |archive-date=May 16, 2008 |access-date=June 5, 2008 |website=Digital History |publisher=University of Houston}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Panic of 1893]] broke out, and created a severe nationwide depression impacted farmers, workers, and businessmen.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Hoffmann |first=Charles |date=1956 |title=The Depression of the Nineties |journal=The Journal of Economic History |volume=16 |issue=2 |pages=137–164 |doi=10.1017/S0022050700058629 |jstor=2114113 |s2cid=155082457}}&lt;/ref&gt; Many railroads went bankrupt. The resultant political reaction fell on the Democratic Party, whose leader President [[Grover Cleveland]] shouldered much of the blame. Labor unrest involved numerous strikes, most notably the violent [[Pullman Strike]] of 1894, which was forcibly shut down by federal troops under Cleveland's orders. One of the disillusioned leaders of the Pullman strike, [[Eugene V. Debs]], went on to become the leader of the [[Socialist Party of America]], eventually going on to win almost 1 million votes in the [[1912 presidential election]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Sebakijje |first=Lena |title=Research Guides: Eugene Debs: Topics in Chronicling America: Introduction |url=https://guides.loc.gov/chronicling-america-eugene-debs/introduction |access-date=2023-09-24 |website=guides.loc.gov |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Economic growth ==== Important legislation of the era included the 1883 [[Pendleton Civil Service Reform Act|Civil Service Act]], which mandated a competitive examination for applicants for government jobs, the 1887 [[Interstate Commerce Act]], which ended railroads' discrimination against small shippers, and the 1890 [[Sherman Antitrust Act]], which outlawed monopolies in business.&lt;ref name=&quot;:28&quot; /&gt; After 1893, the Populist Party gained strength among farmers and coal miners, but was overtaken by the even more popular [[Free silver]] movement, which demanded using silver to enlarge the money supply, leading to inflation that the silverites promised would end the depression.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Miller |first=Worth Robert |date=1993 |title=A Centennial Historiography of American Populism |url=http://history.missouristate.edu/wrmiller/Populism/texts/historiography.htm |journal=Kansas History |volume=16 |issue=1 |pages=54–69 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20100702202601/http://history.missouristate.edu/wrmiller/Populism/Texts/historiography.htm |archive-date=July 2, 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; Financial and railroad communities fought back hard, arguing that only the [[gold standard]] would save the economy. In the [[1896 United States presidential election|1896 presidential election]], conservative Republican [[William McKinley]] defeated silverite William Jennings Bryan, who ran on the Democratic, Populist, and Silver Republican tickets. Bryan swept the South and West, but McKinley ran up landslides among the middle class, industrial workers, cities, and among upscale farmers in the Midwest.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Harpine |first=William D. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=0LANgsuVoBwC |title=From the Front Porch to the Front Page: McKinley and Bryan in the 1896 Presidential Campaign |date=2006 |publisher=Texas A&amp;M University Press |isbn=9781585445592 |pages=176–186 |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150929001850/https://books.google.com/books?id=0LANgsuVoBwC |archive-date=September 29, 2015 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:McKinleyAssassination.jpg|thumb|The assassination of [[William McKinley]] by [[Leon Czolgosz]] in 1901]] Prosperity returned under McKinley. The gold standard was enacted, and the tariff was raised. By 1900, the U.S. had the strongest economy in the world. Republicans, citing McKinley's policies, took the credit for the growth.&lt;ref name=&quot;:29&quot; /&gt; McKinley was [[Assassination of William McKinley|assassinated]] by [[Leon Czolgosz]] in 1901, and was succeeded by [[Theodore Roosevelt]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-05-28 |title=William McKinley - Biography, Presidency, Assassination, &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/biography/William-McKinley |access-date=2024-06-09 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The period also saw a major transformation of the banking system, with the arrival of the first [[credit union]] in 1908 (and thus, [[cooperative banking]]) and the creation of the [[Federal Reserve System]] in 1913.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Kazin |first=Michael |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=fsWLGcZ7pyAC&amp;pg=PA181 |title=The Concise Princeton Encyclopedia of American Political Turn up History |date=2011 |publisher=Princeton University Press |isbn=9781400839469 |page=181 |display-authors=etal |access-date=November 29, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160519113935/https://books.google.com/books?id=fsWLGcZ7pyAC&amp;pg=PA181 |archive-date=May 19, 2016 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Credit Union History |url=https://www.acumuseum.org/credit-union-history |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180612184356/https://www.acumuseum.org/credit-union-history |archive-date=June 12, 2018 |access-date=November 29, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; Apart from two short recessions in [[Panic of 1907|1907]] and [[Depression of 1920–1921|1920]], the economy remained prosperous and growing until 1929.&lt;ref name=&quot;:29&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Morgan |first=H. Wayne |date=1966 |title=William McKinley as a Political Leader |journal=The Review of Politics |volume=28 |issue=4 |pages=417–432 |doi=10.1017/S0034670500013188 |jstor=1405280 |s2cid=145544412}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Imperialism ==== {{Further|American imperialism|Spanish–American War}} [[File:Victor Gillam A Thing Well Begun Is Half Done 1899 Cornell CUL PJM 1136 01.jpg|thumb|This cartoon reflects the view of [[Judge (magazine)|''Judge'' magazine]] regarding America's imperial ambitions following a quick victory in the [[Spanish–American War]] of 1898.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=A Thing Well Begun Is Half Done |url=https://digital.library.cornell.edu/catalog/ss:3293822 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170726170633/https://digital.library.cornell.edu/catalog/ss:3293822 |archive-date=July 26, 2017 |access-date=July 22, 2017 |website=Persuasive Maps: PJ Mode Collection |publisher=Cornell University}}&lt;/ref&gt;|left]] The United States Army continued to fight [[American Indian Wars|wars with Native Americans]] as settlers encroached on their traditional lands. Gradually the U.S. purchased the Native American tribal lands and extinguished their claims, forcing most tribes onto subsidized [[Indian reservation|reservations]]. According to the [[U.S. Census Bureau]] in 1894, from 1789 to 1894, the Indian Wars killed 19,000 white people and more than 30,000 Indians.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=[[U.S. Bureau of the Census]] |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KWkUAQAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA637 |title=Report on Indians taxed and Indians not taxed in the United States (except Alaska) |date=1894 |publisher=Norman Ross Pub. |isbn=9780883544624 |page=637 |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150518093120/https://books.google.com/books?id=KWkUAQAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA637 |archive-date=May 18, 2015 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; The United States emerged as a world economic and military power after 1890. The main episode was the [[Spanish–American War]], which began when Spain refused American demands to reform its oppressive policies in [[Cuba]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Paterson |first=Thomas G. |date=1996 |title=United States Intervention in Cuba, 1898: Interpretations of the Spanish-American-Cuban-Filipino War |journal=The History Teacher |volume=29 |issue=3 |pages=341–361 |doi=10.2307/494551 |jstor=494551}}&lt;/ref&gt; The war was a series of quick American victories on land and at sea. At the [[Treaty of Paris (1898)|Treaty of Paris]] peace conference the United States acquired the [[Philippines]], [[Puerto Rico]], and [[Guam]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Harrington&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Harrington |first=Fred H. |date=1935 |title=The Anti-Imperialist Movement in the United States, 1898–1900 |journal=The Mississippi Valley Historical Review |volume=22 |issue=2 |pages=211–230 |doi=10.2307/1898467 |jstor=1898467}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:American 1902 Fourth of July fireworks.jpg|thumb|American children of many ethnic backgrounds celebrate noisily in a 1902 ''[[Puck (magazine)|Puck]]'' cartoon.|left]] Cuba became an independent country, under close American tutelage. Although the war itself was widely popular, the peace terms proved controversial. [[William Jennings Bryan]] led his Democratic Party in opposition to control of the Philippines, which he denounced as [[American imperialism|imperialism]] unbecoming to American democracy.&lt;ref name=&quot;Harrington&quot; /&gt; President [[William McKinley]] defended the acquisition and was riding high as society had returned to prosperity and felt triumphant in the war. McKinley easily defeated Bryan in a rematch in the [[1900 United States presidential election|1900 presidential election]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Bailey |first=Thomas A. |author-link=Thomas A. Bailey |date=1937 |title=Was the Presidential Election of 1900 a Mandate on Imperialism? |journal=The Mississippi Valley Historical Review |volume=24 |issue=1 |pages=43–52 |doi=10.2307/1891336 |jstor=1891336}}&lt;/ref&gt; After defeating an [[Philippine–American War|insurrection by Filipino nationalists]], the United States achieved little in the Philippines except in education, and it did something in the way of public health. It also built roads, bridges, and wells, but infrastructural development lost much of its early vigor with the failure of the railroads.{{Sfn|Stanley|pages=269–272}} By 1908, however, Americans lost interest in an empire and turned their international attention to the Caribbean, especially the building of the [[Panama Canal]]. The canal opened in 1914 and increased trade with Japan and the rest of the Far East. A key innovation was the [[Open Door Policy]], whereby the imperial powers were given equal access to Chinese business, with not one of them allowed to take control of China.{{Sfn|Jensen et al.}} [[File:Articles by and photo of Charlotte Perkins Gilman in 1916.jpg|thumb|right|[[Charlotte Perkins Gilman]] (pictured) wrote these articles about [[feminism]] for the ''Atlanta Constitution'' in 1916.]] ==== Women's suffrage ==== {{Main article|Women's suffrage in the United States}} [[File:Trialofsusanbanthony 18 anonymous 128kb.ogg|thumb|Excerpt of a reading of [[Susan B. Anthony|Susan B Anthony]]'s 1873 speech at her voter fraud trial, advocating for woman's suffrage]] The women's suffrage movement reorganized after the Civil War, gaining experienced campaigners, many of whom had worked for prohibition in the [[Women's Christian Temperance Union]]. By the end of the century, a few Western states had granted women full voting rights,&lt;ref name=&quot;:11&quot; /&gt; and women gained rights in areas such as property and child custody law.{{Sfn|Glenda Riley}} Around 1912, the [[feminist movement]] reawakened, putting an emphasis on its demands for equality, and arguing that the corruption of American politics demanded purification by women.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Kraditor |first=Aileen S. |title=The Ideas of the Woman Suffrage Movement: 1890–1920 |date=1967 |author-link=Aileen S. Kraditor}}&lt;/ref&gt; Protests became increasingly common, as suffragette [[Alice Paul]] led parades through the capital and major cities. Paul split from the large, moderate [[National American Woman Suffrage Association]] (NAWSA) led by [[Carrie Chapman Catt]], and formed the more militant [[National Woman's Party]]. Suffragists were arrested during their &quot;[[Silent Sentinels]]&quot; pickets at the White House, and were taken as [[political prisoner]]s.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Adams |first1=Katherine H. |title=Alice Paul and the American Suffrage Campaign |last2=Keene |first2=Michael L. |date=2007}}&lt;/ref&gt; Another prominent leader of the movement was [[Jane Addams]] of Chicago, who created [[settlement houses]].&lt;ref name=&quot;digital history progressive&quot; /&gt; [[File:Suffragists Parade Down Fifth Avenue, 1917.JPG|thumb|[[Women's suffrage|Women's suffragists]] parade in New York City in 1917, carrying placards with signatures of more than a million women.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=1917 |title=Suffragists Parade Down Fifth Avenue – 1917 |url=http://www.nytstore.com/Suffragists-Parade-Down-Fifth-Avenue--1917_p_5258.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150106222925/http://www.nytstore.com/Suffragists-Parade-Down-Fifth-Avenue--1917_p_5258.html |archive-date=January 6, 2015 |access-date=August 17, 2017 |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;]] The anti-suffragist argument that only men could fight in a war, and therefore only men deserve the right to vote, was refuted by the participation of American women on the [[United States home front during World War I|home front in World War I]]. The success of woman's suffrage was demonstrated by the politics of states which already allowed women to vote, including Montana, who elected the first woman to the House of Representatives, [[Jeannette Rankin]]. The main resistance came from the South, where white leaders were worried about the threat of Black women voting. Congress passed the [[Nineteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Nineteenth Amendment]] in 1919, and women could vote in 1920.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Frost-Knappman |first1=Elizabeth |title=Women's Suffrage in America |last2=Cullen-Dupont |first2=Kathryn |date=2004}}&lt;/ref&gt; NAWSA became the [[League of Women Voters]]. Politicians responded to the new electorate by emphasizing issues of special interest to women, especially [[Prohibition in the United States|prohibition]], child health, and world peace.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Dumenil |first=Lynn |title=The Modern Temper: American Culture and Society in the 1920s |url=https://archive.org/details/moderntemperamer00dume |date=1995 |pages=[https://archive.org/details/moderntemperamer00dume/page/98 98]–144|publisher=Macmillan |isbn=9780809069781}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Andersen |first=Kristi |title=After Suffrage: Women in Partisan and Electoral Politics before the New Deal |url=https://archive.org/details/aftersuffragewom00ande |date=1996 |publisher=University of Chicago |isbn=9780226019574 |author-link=Kristi Andersen}}&lt;/ref&gt; Notably, in 1928, women were mobilized to support both candidates in the year's [[1928 United States presidential election|presidential election]] between [[Al Smith]] and [[Herbert Hoover]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Lichtman |first=Allan J. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KbGiJpDk6pwC&amp;pg=PA163 |title=Prejudice and the Old Politics: The Presidential Election of 1928 |date=2000 |publisher=Lexington Books |isbn=9780739101261 |page=163 |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151016105918/https://books.google.com/books?id=KbGiJpDk6pwC&amp;pg=PA163 |archive-date=October 16, 2015 |url-status=live |orig-date=1979}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Modern America and World Wars (1914–1945)== ===World War I and the interwar years=== {{Main|History of the United States (1917–1945)}} {{see also|American entry into World War I|United States home front during World War I|United States in World War I|Roaring Twenties}} [[File:Cimetière américain de Romagne-sous-Montfaucon - 1918 - France.JPG|right|thumb|The American [[Meuse-Argonne American Cemetery|Cemetery at Romagne-sous-Montfaucon, France]]]] As [[World War I]] raged in Europe from 1914, President [[Woodrow Wilson]] took full control of foreign policy, declaring neutrality, but warning Germany that resumption of [[unrestricted submarine warfare]] against American ships supplying goods to Allied nations would mean war. Germany decided to take the risk, and try to win by cutting off supplies to Britain through the sinking of ships such as the [[Sinking of the RMS Lusitania|RMS Lusitania]]. The U.S. [[United States declaration of war on Germany (1917)|declared war]] in April 1917, mainly from the threat of the [[Zimmermann Telegram]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite encyclopedia |title=Germany's Decision for Unrestricted Submarine Warfare and Its Impact on the U.S. Declaration of War |encyclopedia=World War I: Encyclopedia |publisher=ABC-CLIO |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=2YqjfHLyyj8C&amp;pg=PA482 |access-date=June 27, 2015 |last=McNabb |first=James B. |date=2005 |editor-last=Roberts, Priscilla Mary |pages=482–483 |isbn=9781851094202 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151007155500/https://books.google.com/books?id=2YqjfHLyyj8C&amp;pg=PA482 |archive-date=October 7, 2015 |editor-first2=Spencer |editor-last2=Tucker |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; By the summer of 1918 soldiers in General [[John J. Pershing]]'s [[American Expeditionary Forces]] arrived at the rate of 10,000 a day, while Germany was unable to replace its losses.{{Sfn|Coffman}} Dissent against the war was suppressed by the [[Sedition Act of 1918]] &amp; [[Espionage Act of 1917]]. German language, leftist &amp; pacifist publications were suppressed. Over 2,000 were imprisoned for speaking out against the war, later released by U.S. President [[Warren G. Harding]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:4&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal |date=March 1, 1996 |title=American Political Prisoners: Prosecutions under the Espionage and Sedition Acts. By Stephen M. Kohn. (Westport: Praeger, 1994. xviii, ISBN 0-275-94415-8.) |journal=Journal of American History |volume=82 |issue=4 |pages=1688 |doi=10.1093/jahist/82.4.1688-a |issn=0021-8723}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Allies of World War I|Allies]] won in November 1918. Wilson demanded Germany depose [[Wilhelm II]] and accept his terms in the famed [[Fourteen Points]] speech. Wilson dominated the [[1919 Paris Peace Conference]], putting his geopolitical hopes in the new [[League of Nations]] as Germany was treated harshly in the [[Treaty of Versailles]] (1919). Wilson refused to compromise with Senate Republicans over the issue of Congressional power to declare war, and the Senate rejected the Treaty and the League.{{Sfn|Cooper}} Instead, the United States chose to pursue [[unilateralism]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=April 29, 1991 |title=Feature: World War I and isolationism, 1913–33 |publisher=U.S. Department of State |url=http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1584/is_n17_v2/ai_11173912 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20090102113850/http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1584/is_n17_v2/ai_11173912 |archive-date=January 2, 2009}}&lt;/ref&gt; The aftershock of Russia's [[October Revolution]] resulted in real fears of Communism in the United States, leading to a [[First Red Scare|Red Scare]] and the deportation of non-citizens considered subversive. [[File:Prohibition.jpg|thumb|[[Prohibition in the United States|Prohibition]] agents destroying barrels of alcohol in Chicago, 1921]] Despite the Progressive-era modernization of hospitals and medical schools,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Carlisle |first=Rodney P. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=dYwn0je9MfYC&amp;pg=PT245 |title=Handbook to Life in America |date=2009 |publisher=Infobase Publishing |isbn=9781438119014 |page=245ff |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151016105918/https://books.google.com/books?id=dYwn0je9MfYC&amp;pg=PT245 |archive-date=October 16, 2015 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; the country lost around 550,000 lives to the [[Spanish flu]] pandemic in 1918 and 1919.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1918-commemoration/1918-pandemic-history.htm |title=History of 1918 Flu Pandemic |website=CDC|date=January 22, 2019}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-04-15 |title=Influenza pandemic of 1918–19 - Cause, Origin, &amp; Spread |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/influenza-pandemic-of-1918-1919 |access-date=2024-06-09 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; During the &quot;[[Roaring Twenties|Roaring]]&quot; 1920s, the economy expanded. African-Americans benefited from the [[Great Migration (African American)|Great Migration]] and had more cultural power; an example being the [[Harlem Renaissance]] which spread [[jazz]] music. Meanwhile, the [[Ku Klux Klan]] had a resurgence, and the [[Immigration Act of 1924]] was passed to strictly limit the number of new entries.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Roaring Twenties - Definition, Music, History, &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/topic/Roaring-Twenties |access-date=2024-06-09 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Prohibition in the United States|Prohibition]] began in 1920, when the manufacture, sale, import and export of alcohol were prohibited by the [[Eighteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Eighteenth Amendment]]. Americans resulted to drinking [[denatured alcohol]] or [[Rum-running|bootlegged alcohol]] from elsewhere in the Americas. Bootlegged alcohol in the cities ended up under the control of gangs, who fought each other for territory in which they controlled the drink's sale. Italian bootleggers in New York City gradually formed the [[American Mafia|Mafia]] crime syndicate. In 1933, President [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] repealed prohibition by signing the [[Cullen-Harrison Act]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-04-10 |title=Prohibition - Definition, History, Eighteenth Amendment, &amp; Repeal |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/Prohibition-United-States-history-1920-1933 |access-date=2024-06-09 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Great Depression and the New Deal=== {{Main|New Deal|Presidency of Herbert Hoover|Presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt}} [[File:Money supply during the great depression era.png|thumb|right|The sharp decrease of the money supply between [[Wall Street Crash of 1929|Black Tuesday]] and the [[Emergency Banking Act of 1933|Bank Holiday]] in March 1933, when there were massive [[bank run]]s across the United States]] The [[Great Depression in the United States|Great Depression]] (1929–1939) and the [[New Deal]] (1933–1936) were decisive moments in American political, economic, and social history that reshaped the nation.{{Sfn|Kennedy, Freedom from Fear}} During the 1920s, the nation enjoyed widespread prosperity, albeit with a weakness in agriculture. A [[financial bubble]] was fueled by an inflated stock market, which later led to the [[Wall Street Crash]] on October 29, 1929.&lt;ref&gt;{{Harvard citation no brackets|Shlaes|2008|pp=85, 90}}&lt;/ref&gt; This, along with [[Causes of the Great Depression|many other economic factors]], triggered a worldwide [[economic depression|depression]]. During this time, the United States experienced [[deflation]] as prices fell, unemployment soared from 3% in 1929 to 25% in 1933, farm prices fell by half, and manufacturing output plunged by one-third. [[File:Fireside Chat 1 On the Banking Crisis (March 12, 1933) Franklin Delano Roosevelt edited.ogg|alt=Fireside Chat|thumb|The March 12, 1933 [[Fireside chats|fireside chat]] radio address from President [[Franklin Roosevelt]]]] In 1932, [[History of the Democratic Party (United States)|Democratic]] presidential nominee Franklin D. Roosevelt promised &quot;a New Deal for the American people&quot;, coining the enduring label for his domestic policies. The result was a series of permanent reform programs including the [[Social Security (United States)|Social Security]] program, [[Social Security Act|unemployment relief and insurance]], [[National Housing Act of 1934|public housing]], [[1933 Banking Act|bankruptcy insurance]], [[Agricultural Adjustment Act|farm subsidies]], and [[Securities Act of 1933|regulation of financial securities]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:12&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Kennedy |first=David M. |author-link=David M. Kennedy (historian) |date=Summer 2009 |title=What the New Deal Did |journal=Political Science Quarterly |volume=124 |issue=2 |pages=251–268 |doi=10.1002/j.1538-165X.2009.tb00648.x}}&lt;/ref&gt; It also provided unemployment relief through the [[Works Progress Administration]] (WPA) and for young men, the [[Civilian Conservation Corps]]. Large scale spending projects designed to provide private sector construction jobs and rebuild the infrastructure were under the purview of the [[Public Works Administration]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:12&quot; /&gt; [[File:Lange-MigrantMother02.jpg|thumb|[[Dorothea Lange]]'s ''[[Migrant Mother]]'' depicts destitute pea pickers in California, in [[Nipomo, California]], in 1936.]] State governments added new programs as well, and introduced the sales tax to pay for them. Ideologically, the New Deal established [[modern liberalism in the United States]] and kept the Democrats in power in Washington almost continuously for three decades, thanks to the [[New Deal coalition]] of ethnic white and Black people, [[blue-collar worker]]s, and labor unions.&lt;ref name=&quot;:12&quot; /&gt; The New Deal coalition won re-election for Roosevelt in [[1936 United States presidential election|1936]], [[1940 United States presidential election|1940]], and [[1944]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:12&quot; /&gt; The [[Second New Deal]] in 1935 and 1936 brought the economy further left, building up labor unions through the [[Wagner Act]]. Roosevelt weakened his second term by a failed effort to pack the Supreme Court, which had been a center of conservative resistance to his programs.&lt;ref name=&quot;:12&quot; /&gt; The economy essentially recovered by 1936, but had a sharp, short [[Recession of 1937–1938|recession in 1937 and 1938]]. Long-term unemployment, however, remained a problem until it was solved by wartime spending. Most of the relief programs were dropped in the 1940s, when the conservatives regained power in Congress through the [[Conservative coalition]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:12&quot; /&gt; In an effort to denounce past U.S. interventionism and create a friendly relationship with Latin America, Roosevelt announced in 1933 he would stray from asserting military force in the region.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Roosevelt |first=Franklin Delano |author-link=Franklin Delano Roosevelt |title=First Inaugural Address |date=March 4, 1933 |publication-place=Washington DC}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Good Neighbor Policy, 1933 – 1921–1936 – Milestones |url=https://history.state.gov/milestones/1921-1936/good-neighbor |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190717192011/https://history.state.gov/milestones/1921-1936/good-neighbor |archive-date=July 17, 2019 |publisher=Office of the Historian}}&lt;/ref&gt; For Hispanics in the United States, the Depression was a difficult period, as the [[Mexican Repatriation]] resulted in the dislocation of an estimated 400,000 Mexicans and Mexican Americans.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Ray |first=Eric L. |date=2005 |title=Mexican Repatriation and the Possibility for a Federal Cause of Action: A Comparative Analysis on Reparations |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/40176606 |journal=The University of Miami Inter-American Law Review |volume=37 |issue=1 |pages=171–196 |issn=0884-1756 |jstor=40176606}}&lt;/ref&gt; === World War II === {{Main article|World War II|United States in World War II|Military history of the United States during World War II}} [[File:The USS Arizona (BB-39) burning after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor - NARA 195617 - Edit.jpg|thumb|The [[USS Arizona|USS ''Arizona'' (BB-39)]] burning after the Japanese [[attack on Pearl Harbor]] in 1941]] {{See also|Historiography of World War II|United States home front during World War II}} During the Depression, the United States remained focused on domestic concerns, while democracy declined across the world and many countries fell under the control of dictators. [[Imperial Japan]] asserted dominance in East Asia and in the Pacific. [[Nazi Germany]] and [[Kingdom of Italy#Fascist regime (1922–1943)|Fascist Italy]] militarized and threatened conquests of their neighbors, while Britain and France attempted [[appeasement]] to avert another war in Europe. U.S. legislation in the [[Neutrality Acts of the 1930s|Neutrality Acts]] sought to avoid foreign conflicts; however, policy clashed with increasing anti-Nazi feelings following the German [[invasion of Poland]] in September 1939 that started [[World War II]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:13&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Black |first=Conrad |title=Roosevelt: Champion of Freedom |url=https://archive.org/details/franklindelanoro00blac |date=2003 |pages=[https://archive.org/details/franklindelanoro00blac/page/648 648]–682 |publisher=Public Affairs |isbn=9781586481841 |author-link=Conrad Black}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Roosevelt Pearl Harbor.ogg|thumb|alt=Infamy speech|[[Infamy Speech|President Roosevelt's speech]] in aftermath of Pearl Harbor Attack]] At first, Roosevelt positioned the U.S. as the &quot;[[Arsenal of Democracy]]&quot;, pledging full-scale financial and munitions support for the Allies and [[Lend-Lease]] agreements – but no military personnel.&lt;ref name=&quot;:13&quot; /&gt; Japan tried to neutralize America's power in the Pacific by [[attack on Pearl Harbor|attacking Pearl Harbor]] in 1941, but instead it catalyzed American support to enter the war.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Prange |first1=Gordon W. |title=At Dawn We Slept: The Untold Story of Pearl Harbor |url=https://archive.org/details/atdawnwesleptun00pran |last2=Goldstein |first2=Donald M. |last3=Dillon |first3=Katherine V. |date=1982|publisher=McGraw-Hill |isbn=9780070506695}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Woodland, California. Evacuees of Japanese ancestry are boarding a special train for Merced Assembl . . . - NARA - 537818 (cropped2).jpg|thumb|Japanese-Americans in [[Woodland]], California, boarding a bus to the [[Merced Assembly Center]] [[Internment of Japanese Americans|internment camp]] in 1942]] War fervor inspired [[Anti-Japanese sentiment in the United States|anti-Japanese sentiment]], leading to [[internment of Japanese Americans]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Daniels |first=Roger |title=Prisoners Without Trial: Japanese Americans in World War II |date=2004}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt's [[Executive Order 9066]] resulted in over 120,000 Americans of Japanese descent being removed from their homes and placed in internment camps. Two-thirds of those interned were American citizens, and half of them were children.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Short History of Amache Japanese Internment Camp |url=https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sites/default/files/Short%20History%20of%20Amache%20Japanese%20Internment%20Camp_0.pdf |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190412042223/https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sites/default/files/Short%20History%20of%20Amache%20Japanese%20Internment%20Camp_0.pdf |archive-date=April 12, 2019 |access-date=October 9, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Sfn|Ogawa and Fox|page=135}}&lt;ref name=&quot;Richey2007&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Richey |first=Warren |date=December 5, 2007 |title=Key Guantánamo cases hit Supreme Court |url=http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1205/p01s02-usju.html?page=2 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180627034530/https://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1205/p01s02-usju.html?page=2 |archive-date=June 27, 2018 |work=[[The Christian Science Monitor]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Allies of World War II|Allies]] – the United States, Britain, the Soviet Union, China and other countries – fought against Germany in the [[European theater]] and Japan in the [[Pacific War]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:24&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=World War II 1939–1945 |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/World-War-II |access-date=June 7, 2024 |website=Encyclopedia Britannica}}&lt;/ref&gt; The United States was one of the &quot;[[Four Policemen|Allied Big Four]]&quot;, alongside the [[United Kingdom]], [[Soviet Union]], and [[Republic of China (1912–1949)|China]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|first1=Townsend|last1=Hoopes|author-link1=Townsend Hoopes|first2=Douglas|last2=Brinkley|author-link2=Douglas Brinkley|title=FDR and the Creation of the U.N.|url=https://archive.org/details/fdrcreationofun00hoop|url-access=registration|year=1997|publisher=Yale University Press|isbn=978-0-300-08553-2 |page=100}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|first=John Lewis|last=Gaddis|author-link=John Lewis Gaddis|title=The United States and the Origins of the Cold War, 1941–1947|url=https://archive.org/details/unitedstatesorig0000gadd|url-access=registration |year=1972 |publisher=Columbia University Press|isbn=978-0-231-12239-9 |page=25}}&lt;/ref&gt; The U.S. gave the Allied war effort money, food, [[petroleum]], technology, and military personnel. The U.S. focused on maximizing its national economic output, causing a dramatic increase in GDP, the end of unemployment, and a rise in civilian consumption, even as 40% of the GDP went to the war effort.{{Sfn|Kennedy, Freedom from Fear}} A [[Military production during World War II|wartime production boom]] led to the end of the Great Depression. Tens of millions of workers moved into the active labor force and to higher-productivity jobs. Labor shortages encouraged industries to look for new sources of workers, finding new roles for women and Black people. Economic mobilization was managed by the [[War Production Board]].{{Sfn|Kennedy, Freedom from Fear}} Most durable goods became unavailable, and meat, clothing, and gasoline were tightly rationed. In industrial areas, housing was in short supply, as people lived in cramped quarters. Prices and wages were controlled, and Americans saved a high portion of their incomes, which led to renewed growth after the war.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Vatter |first=Harold G. |title=The U.S. Economy in World War II |date=1988 |pages=27–31}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Sfn|Kennedy, Freedom from Fear|pages=615–668}} [[File:Into the Jaws of Death 23-0455M edit.jpg|thumb|''[[Into the Jaws of Death]]'': U.S. troops landing at [[Omaha Beach]] in France, during the [[Normandy landings]] in June 1944|left]] The U.S. stopped Japanese expansion in the Pacific in 1942; after the loss of the [[Japanese occupation of the Philippines|Philippines to Japanese]] conquests, as well as a draw in the [[Battle of the Coral Sea]] in May, the American Navy then inflicted a decisive blow at [[Battle of Midway|Midway]] in June 1942. The Allied forces built up a garrison on [[Guadalcanal]], a Pacific island formerly held by the Japanese, after the successes of the [[Battle of the Eastern Solomons]] and the [[Battle of Guadalcanal]]. The Japanese then stopped advancing south, and the U.S. began taking [[New Guinea]]. Japan also lost [[Aleutian Islands campaign|their invasion]] of the Alaskan [[Aleutian Islands]], allowing the U.S. to begin attacking the Japanese-controlled [[Kuril Islands]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:24&quot; /&gt; American ground forces assisted in the [[North African campaign]] that eventually concluded with the [[Fall of the Fascist regime in Italy|collapse of Fascist Italy]] in 1943, as Italy switched to the Allied side. A more significant European front was opened on [[D-Day]], June 6, 1944, in which Allied forces invaded [[Nazi-occupied France]] from Britain.&lt;ref name=&quot;:24&quot; /&gt; The Allies began pushing the Germans out of France in the [[Normandy campaign]], breaking through the local German defenses after [[Operation Cobra]] in August. This also led to conflict within the German high command, and the unsuccessful [[July Plot]]. After French and American forces landed at the [[French Riviera]] in [[Operation Dragoon]], Hitler allowed his army to retreat from Normandy.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Normandy Invasion World War II |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/Normandy-Invasion |access-date=June 7, 2024 |website=Encyclopedia Britannica}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt [[Death of Franklin D. Roosevelt|died]] in 1945, and was succeeded by [[Harry Truman]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-05-23 |title=Franklin D. Roosevelt - Accomplishments, New Deal, Great Depression, World War II, &amp; Death |url=https://www.britannica.com/biography/Franklin-D-Roosevelt |access-date=2024-06-12 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The western front stopped short of Berlin, leaving the Soviets to take it in the [[Battle of Berlin]]. The Nazi regime [[German Instrument of Surrender|formally capitulated]] in May 1945, [[End of World War II in Europe|ending the war in Europe]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:24&quot; /&gt; [[File:Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima, larger - edit1.jpg|thumb|''[[Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima]]'': United States Marines raising a US flag atop [[Mount Suribachi]] during the [[Battle of Iwo Jima]] in 1945]] In the Pacific, the U.S. implemented an [[leapfrogging (strategy)|island hopping strategy]] toward Tokyo. The Philippines was eventually reconquered, after Japan and the United States fought in history's largest naval battle, the [[Battle of Leyte Gulf]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=The Largest Naval Battles in Military History: A Closer Look at the Largest and Most Influential Naval Battles in World History |url=http://militaryhistory.norwich.edu/largest-naval-sea-battles-in-military-history |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150124033426/http://militaryhistory.norwich.edu/largest-naval-sea-battles-in-military-history/ |archive-date=January 24, 2015 |access-date=March 7, 2015 |website=Military History |publisher=Norwich University}}&lt;/ref&gt; However, the war wiped out all the development the United States invested in the Philippines, as cities and towns were completely destroyed.&lt;ref name=&quot;TimeMag1945&quot;&gt;{{Cite magazine |date=April 16, 1945 |title=War Scars |url=https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,775542,00.html |access-date=March 17, 2016 |magazine=Time}}&lt;/ref&gt; After the war, the U.S. [[Treaty of Manila (1946)|granted the Philippines independence]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Gov.Ph&quot;&gt;{{Citation |title=Philippine Republic Day |url=https://www.officialgazette.gov.ph/republic-day/ |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210729160345/https://www.officialgazette.gov.ph/republic-day/ |archive-date=July 29, 2021 |url-status=dead |publisher=[[Official Gazette (Philippines)]] |accessdate=July 5, 2012}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Trinity Detonation T&amp;B.jpg|thumb|The [[Manhattan Project]]'s [[Trinity Test]], the first detonation of a [[nuclear weapon]], 1945]] Military [[research and development]] increased during the war, leading to the [[Manhattan Project]], a secret effort to harness [[nuclear fission]] to produce [[atomic bombs]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Rhodes |first=Richard |title=The Making of the Atomic Bomb |date=1995}}&lt;/ref&gt; The first nuclear device ever detonated was [[Trinity (nuclear test)|conducted]] on July 16, 1945.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Ralph Smith's eyewitness account of the Trinity trip to watch blast |url=http://www.wsmr.army.mil/PAO/Trinity/Pages/RalphSmithseyewitnessaccountoftheTrinitytriptowatchblast.aspx |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140904084107/http://www.wsmr.army.mil/PAO/Trinity/Pages/RalphSmithseyewitnessaccountoftheTrinitytriptowatchblast.aspx |archive-date=September 4, 2014 |access-date=August 24, 2014 |website=White Sands Missile Range, Public Affairs Office}}&lt;/ref&gt; Meanwhile, the U.S. established airfields for bombing runs against mainland Japan from the [[Mariana Islands]], achieving hard-fought victories at [[Battle of Iwo Jima|Iwo Jima]] and [[Battle of Okinawa|Okinawa]] in 1945.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Spector |first=Ronald H. |title=Eagle Against the Sun |url=https://archive.org/details/eagleagainstsuna0000spec |date=1985 |chapter=12–18 |publisher=Vintage Books |isbn=9780394741017 |author-link=Ronald H. Spector}}&lt;/ref&gt; The U.S. prepared to [[Operation Downfall|invade Japan's home islands]] when they [[atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki|dropped atomic bombs]] on the Japanese cities of [[Hiroshima]] and [[Nagasaki]], compelling Japan to surrender and ending World War II.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Giangreco |first=D. M. |title=Hell to Pay: Operation DOWNFALL and the Invasion of Japan, 1945–1947 |date=2009}}&lt;/ref&gt; The U.S. [[occupied Japan]] (and [[American occupation zone in Germany|part of Germany]]), and restructured Japan along American lines.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Finn |first=Richard B. |title=Winners in Peace: MacArthur, Yoshida, and Postwar Japan |url=https://archive.org/details/winnerspeacemaca00finn |date=1992 |pages=[https://archive.org/details/winnerspeacemaca00finn/page/n64 43]–103|publisher=University of California Press |isbn=9780520069091}}&lt;/ref&gt; 400,000 American military personnel and civilians were killed.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last1=Leland |first1=Anne |last2=Oboroceanu |first2=Mari–Jana |date=February 26, 2010 |title=American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics |url=https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181209111557/https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf |archive-date=December 9, 2018 |access-date=February 18, 2011 |publisher=Congressional Research Service |page=2}}&lt;/ref&gt; Nuclear weapons have not been used since the war ended, and a &quot;[[Long Peace|long peace]]&quot; began between the global powers in era of competition that came to be known as the [[Cold War]].{{Sfn|Gaddis, Long Peace}} == Post-war America (1945–1981) == {{Main|Cold War|History of the United States (1945–1964)|History of the United States (1964–1980)}} [[File:NATO vs. Warsaw Pact (1949-1990).svg|thumb|The [[NATO]] (blue) and [[Warsaw Pact]] (red) alliances from 1949 to 1990]] ===Economic boom and the beginning of the Cold War=== ==== Truman administration ==== {{Main article|Presidency of Harry S. Truman|Cold War (1947-1953)}} In the decades after World War II, the United States became a global influence in economic, political, military, cultural, and technological affairs. Following World War II, the United States emerged as one of the two dominant superpowers, the [[Soviet Union]] being the other. The U.S. Senate, on a bipartisan vote, approved U.S. participation in the [[United Nations]] (UN), which marked a turn away from traditional [[American isolationism]] and toward increased international involvement.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Getchell |first=Michelle |date=2017-10-26 |title=The United Nations and the United States |url=https://oxfordre.com/americanhistory/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199329175.001.0001/acrefore-9780199329175-e-497 |access-date=2022-09-24 |website=Oxford Research Encyclopedia of American History |language=en |doi=10.1093/acrefore/9780199329175.013.497|isbn=978-0-19-932917-5}}&lt;/ref&gt; The United States and other major Allied powers — the United Kingdom, Soviet Union, and China — became the foundation of the [[UN Security Council]].{{Sfn|Gaddis, Origins of the Cold War}} The [[Central Intelligence Agency]] (CIA) was created in 1947.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-07-19 |title=Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) {{!}} History, Organization, Responsibilities, Activities, &amp; Criticism {{!}} Britannica |url=https://www.britannica.com/topic/Central-Intelligence-Agency |access-date=2024-07-21 |website=www.britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Marshall Plan poster.JPG|alt=Marshall Plan poster|thumb|One of a number of posters created by the [[Economic Cooperation Administration]], an agency of the U.S. government, to sell the [[Marshall Plan]] in Europe]] America wished to rescue Europe from the devastation of World War II, and to contain the expansion of [[communism]], represented by the Soviet Union. U.S. foreign policy during the [[Cold War]] was built around the support of Western Europe and Japan along with the policy of [[containment]] (containing the spread of communism to countries already under that system).&lt;ref name=&quot;:25&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Blakeley |first=Ruth |url=https://archive.org/details/stateterrorismne00blak |title=State Terrorism and Neoliberalism: The North in the South |date=2009 |publisher=[[Routledge]] |isbn=978-0415686174 |page=[https://archive.org/details/stateterrorismne00blak/page/n104 92] |url-access=limited}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Truman Doctrine]] in 1947 was the U.S.' attempt to secure trading partners in Europe, by providing military and economic aid to Greece and Turkey to counteract the threat of communist expansion in the Balkans.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2022-03-23 |title=What was the Cold War—and are we headed to another one? |url=https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/cold-war |access-date=2024-06-08 |website=Culture |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Sfn|Gaddis, Long Peace}} In 1948, the United States replaced piecemeal financial aid programs with a comprehensive [[Marshall Plan]], which pumped money into Western Europe, and removed trade barriers, while modernizing the managerial practices of businesses and governments.{{Sfn|Gaddis, Cold War}} Post-war American aid to Europe totaled $25 billion, out of the U.S. GDP of $258&amp;nbsp;billion in 1948. Soviet head of state [[Joseph Stalin]] prevented [[Eastern Bloc|his satellite states]] from participating, and from that point on, Eastern Europe, with inefficient centralized economies, fell further and further behind Western Europe in terms of economic development and prosperity.{{Sfn|Gaddis, Cold War}} In Asia, despite being devastated by World War 2 and being a former colony, [[the Philippines]], received negligible assistance from the United States compared to the larger aid given to other Asian allies like: [[Israel]], [[South Korea]], [[South Vietnam]],&lt;ref name=aid&gt;[https://usafacts.org/articles/which-countries-receive-the-most-aid-from-the-us/ Which countries receive the most foreign aid from the US?] [[USAFacts]]. Updated on October 12, 2023.&lt;/ref&gt; and [[Taiwan]],&lt;ref&gt;[https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/93677/1/767437535.pdf Aid and development in Taiwan, South Korea, and South Vietnam By: Gray, Kevin]&lt;/ref&gt; because the latter had hostile Pro-[[Soviet Union]] neighbors which the United States were opposed to.&lt;ref name=&quot;Collision&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Doyle |first1=Edward |url=https://archive.org/details/collisionofcultu00doyl |title=The Vietnam Experience, a Collision of Cultures |last2=Weiss |first2=Stephen |publisher=Boston Publishing Company |year=1984 |isbn=978-0939526123 |url-access=registration}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1949, the United States, rejecting the long-standing policy of no military alliances in peacetime, formed the [[North Atlantic Treaty Organization]] (NATO) alliance, which continues into the 21st century. In response, the Soviets formed the [[Warsaw Pact]] of communist states, leading to the &quot;[[Iron Curtain]]&quot;.{{Sfn|Gaddis, Cold War}} In 1949, the Soviets performed their [[RDS-1|first nuclear weapon test]].{{Sfn|Gaddis, Long Peace}} This escalated the risk of nuclear warfare; the threat of [[mutually assured destruction]], however, prevented both powers from nuclear war, and resulted the proxy wars in which the two sides did not directly confront each other.{{Sfn|Gaddis, Long Peace}} [[File:KoreanWar recover Seoul.jpg|thumb|U.S. Marines fighting in the streets of [[Seoul]], Korea during the [[Second Battle of Seoul]] in 1950]] The U.S. fought against communists in the [[Korean War]] and [[Vietnam War]], and [[United States involvement in regime change#1945–1991: Cold War|toppled left-wing governments in the third world]] to try to stop its spread, such as [[1953 Iranian coup d'état|Iran in 1953]] and [[1954 Guatemalan coup d'état|Guatemala in 1954]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:25&quot; /&gt; [[McCarthyism]] was a widespread government program led by Senator [[Joseph McCarthy]] to expose communists in government and business. Government employees were made to prove their loyalty to America, and Hollywood was targeted by the [[House Un-American Activities Committee]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=McCarthyism - Definition, History, &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/McCarthyism |access-date=2024-06-08 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[J. Robert Oppenheimer]], director of the [[Los Alamos Laboratory]] during the Manhattan Project, had his high-level [[security clearance]] [[Oppenheimer security clearance hearing|revoked]] in 1954 over alleged communist sympathies, losing his ability to advise the top heads of government.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-05-28 |title=J. Robert Oppenheimer - Biography, Manhattan Project, Atomic Bomb, Significance, &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/biography/J-Robert-Oppenheimer |access-date=2024-06-08 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Oppenheimer security hearing - 1954, Facts, Transcripts, &amp; Results |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/J-Robert-Oppenheimer-security-hearing |access-date=2024-06-08 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Gay people were targeted under the McCarthyist [[Lavender Scare]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine|last1=Haynes |first1=Suyin |last2=Aneja |first2=Arpita |date=2020-12-22 |title=The Anti-Gay 'Lavender Scare' Is Rarely Taught in Schools |url=https://time.com/5922679/lavender-scare-history/ |access-date=2024-08-14 |magazine=TIME |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Eisenhower administration ==== {{Main article|Presidency of Dwight D. Eisenhower|Cold War (1953–1962)}} [[Dwight D. Eisenhower]] was [[1952 United States presidential election|elected president]] in 1952 in a landslide.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Hitchcock |first=William I. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=MImCDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PP16 |title=The Age of Eisenhower: America and the World in the 1950s |date=2018 |publisher=Simon and Schuster |isbn=9781451698428 |pages=xvi–xix}}&lt;/ref&gt; He ended the Korean War, and avoided any other major conflict. He cut military spending by relying on advanced technology, such as nuclear weapons carried by [[Strategic bomber|long-range bombers]] and [[Intercontinental ballistic missile|intercontinental missiles]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:14&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Hitchcock |first=William I. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=MImCDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA109 |title=The Age of Eisenhower |date=2018 |isbn=9781451698428 |page=109|publisher=Simon &amp; Schuster}}&lt;/ref&gt; After [[Death and state funeral of Joseph Stalin|Stalin died in 1953]], Eisenhower worked to obtain friendlier relationships with the Soviet Union. At home, he ended McCarthyism, expanded the Social Security program, and presided over a decade of bipartisan cooperation.&lt;ref name=&quot;:14&quot; /&gt; [[File:CA 58 I5 FHWA 1957 5776 14.jpg|thumb|right|A 1957 aerial photograph showing an recently constructed interchange on [[Interstate 5|I-5]] in [[Glendale, California]]]] Domestically, after 1948, America entered an [[Post–World War II economic expansion|economic boom]]. Americans found themselves flush with cash from wartime work, due to there being little to buy for several years. As a result, 60% of the American population had attained a &quot;middle-class&quot; standard of living by the mid-1950s (defined as incomes of $3,000 to $10,000 in constant dollars), compared with only 31% in the 1928 and 1929. Between 1947 and 1960, the average real income for American workers increased by as much as it had in the previous half-century.&lt;ref name=&quot;ReferenceC&quot;&gt;The Unfinished Journey: America Since World War II by William H. Chafe&lt;/ref&gt; The economy allowed for an affordable lifestyle with large families; this created the [[baby boom]], in which millions of children were born at increased rates from 1945 to 1964. The [[baby boomer]] demographic eventually made up 40 percent of the country.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-05-27 |title=Baby boomer - Definition, Age Range, &amp; Societal and Economic Impact |url=https://www.britannica.com/topic/baby-boomers |access-date=2024-06-08 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Many Americans [[Suburbanization|moved into suburban neighborhoods]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Peters |first=Frederick |date=August 14, 2019 |title=The Rise And Fall Of The Suburbs |url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/fredpeters/2019/08/14/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-suburbs/ |access-date=June 7, 2024 |website=Forbes}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Operation Arkansas, Little Rock Nine.jpg|left|thumb|The [[101st Airborne Division]] escorting the [[Little Rock Nine]] into [[Little Rock Central High School]] in 1957]] Eisenhower promoted civil rights for African-Americans cautiously.&lt;ref name=&quot;:14&quot; /&gt; In the 1954 Supreme Court decision ''[[Brown v. Board of Education]]'', public school segregation was ruled unconstitutional.&lt;ref name=&quot;:26&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=American civil rights movement - Montgomery Bus Boycott, Nonviolent Resistance, Voting Rights Act |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/American-civil-rights-movement/Montgomery-bus-boycott-to-the-Voting-Rights-Act |access-date=2024-06-08 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; When [[Little Rock Nine|nine Black students]] were threatened over their admission into all-white [[Little Rock Central High School]], Eisenhower sent in a thousand National Guard troops to ensure peace.&lt;ref name=&quot;:14&quot; /&gt; Starting in the late 1950s, institutionalized [[racism in the United States|racism across the United States]], but especially in the [[Southern United States|South]], was increasingly challenged by the growing [[civil rights movement]]. The activism of [[Rosa Parks]] and [[Martin Luther King Jr.]] led to the [[Montgomery bus boycott|boycott of segregated public buses]] in [[Montgomery, Alabama|Montgomery]], Alabama in 1955, organized by King and the [[Montgomery Improvement Association]]. They faced multiple acts of violence, but continued the boycott for a year, until the Supreme Court ordered the city to desegregate the buses. In 1957, King created the [[Southern Christian Leadership Conference]] to facilitate future protests.&lt;ref name=&quot;:26&quot; /&gt; [[File:Family watching television 1958.jpg|thumb|An American family watching television together in 1958]] The Soviets unexpectedly surpassed American technology in 1957 with [[Sputnik]], the first Earth satellite. The [[R-7 Semyorka|R-7 missile]] which launched Sputnik into space could have hypothetically dropped a nuclear bomb into U.S. air space [[High-altitude nuclear explosion|from above]]; new American fears regarding Soviet power began the [[Space Race]], a competition between the two countries to prove their technological superiority through space exploration. In 1958, Eisenhower created the [[National Aeronautics and Space Administration]] (NASA) for this purpose, and in 1958, the U.S. launched the [[Explorer I]] satellite. In 1961, Eisenhower's newly elected successor, [[John F. Kennedy]], [[We choose to go to the Moon|announced]] the U.S. would land a man on the moon by the end of the decade.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Bresnahan |first=Samantha |date=2021-05-25 |title=Sixty years ago, this JFK speech launched America's race to the moon |url=https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/25/world/jfk-may-1961-moon-speech-spc-scn-intl/index.html |access-date=2024-06-08 |website=CNN |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Angst about the weaknesses of American education led to large-scale federal support for [[Science education#United States|science education]] and research.{{Sfn|Patterson, Grand Expectations}} ===Civil unrest and social reforms=== {{Main|History of the United States (1964–1980)|Cold War (1962-1991)}} ==== Kennedy and Johnson administrations ==== [[File:Lyndon B. Johnson taking the oath of office, November 1963.jpg|thumb|[[Lyndon B. Johnson]] being [[Inauguration of Lyndon B. Johnson|inaugurated]] in 1963 after the [[assassination of John F. Kennedy]]]]{{Main|Presidency of John F. Kennedy|Presidency of Lyndon B. Johnson|Great Society}} In 1960, John F. Kennedy was [[1960 United States presidential election|elected President]] and [[Presidency of John F. Kennedy|his administration]] saw the acceleration of the country's role in the Space Race, escalation of the American role in the [[Vietnam War]], the [[Bay of Pigs Invasion]], and the [[Cuban Missile Crisis]]. President Kennedy [[Assassination of John F. Kennedy|was assassinated]] on November 22, 1963, leaving the nation in profound shock.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=O'Brien |first=Michael |title=John F. Kennedy: A Biography |date=2005}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Lyndon B. Johnson]] then became president.&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Schneider |first=Gregory |url=https://archive.org/details/conservativecent0000schn |title=The Conservative Century: From Reaction to Revolution |date=2009 |publisher=Rowman &amp; Littlefield |chapter=5}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:LBJ Civil Rights signing 1964 edited.ogg |alt=Civil Rights signing|thumb|President [[Presidency of Lyndon B. Johnson|Lyndon Johnson's]] speech on the [[Civil Rights Act of 1964]]]] Johnson was rewarded with an [[1964 United States presidential election|electoral landslide in 1964]] against conservative [[Barry Goldwater]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt; He then secured congressional passage of his [[Great Society]] programs,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Alterman |first1=Eric |title=The Cause: The Fight for American Liberalism from Franklin Roosevelt to Barack Obama |url=https://archive.org/details/causefightforame00alte_0 |last2=Mattson |first2=Kevin |date=2012|publisher=Viking |isbn=9780670023431}}&lt;/ref&gt; dealing with civil rights, the end of legal segregation, [[Medicare (United States)|Medicare]], extension of welfare, federal aid to education at all levels, subsidies for the arts and humanities, [[Environmental movement in the United States|environmental activism]], and a [[War on poverty|series of programs designed to wipe out poverty]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Dallek |first=Robert |title=Lyndon B. Johnson: Portrait of a President |date=2004 |author-link=Robert Dallek}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Bernstein |first=Irving |title=Guns or Butter: The Presidency of Lyndon Johnson |date=1994}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Civil rights and counterculture movements ==== {{Main article|Civil rights movement|Counterculture of the 1960s|Second-wave feminism}} [[File:Civil Rights March on Washington, D.C. (Leaders marching from the Washington Monument to the Lincoln Memorial) - NARA - 542010.jpg|thumb|Civil rights activists during the [[March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom]] in 1963]] For years, [[nonviolence|nonviolent]] civil rights activists organized direct actions, such as the 1963 [[Birmingham campaign]] and 1965 [[Selma to Montgomery march]], where they also became victims of violence. Along with Supreme Court decisions like ''[[Loving v. Virginia]]'' and the 1963 [[March on Washington]], these movements achieved great steps toward equality with laws like the [[Civil Rights Act of 1964]], the [[Voting Rights Act of 1965]], and the [[Fair Housing Act of 1968]]. These ended the [[Jim Crow laws]] that had legalized [[racial segregation]] between White and Black people.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Dierenfield |first=Bruce J. |title=The Civil Rights Movement |url=https://archive.org/details/civilrightsmovem0000dier |date=2004|publisher=Pearson Longman |isbn=9780582357372}}&lt;/ref&gt; Native Americans protested federal courts, highlighting the federal government's failure to honor treaties involving them. One of the most outspoken Native American groups was the [[American Indian Movement]] (AIM). In the 1960s, [[Cesar Chavez]] began organizing poorly paid [[Mexican-American]] farm workers in California. He led a five-year-long strike by grape pickers. Then Chávez formed the country's first successful union of farm workers, the [[United Farm Workers of America]] (UFW).&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Jacobs |first=Elizabeth |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=0nLwAihlibcC&amp;pg=PA13 |title=Mexican American Literature: The Politics of Identity |date=2006 |publisher=Routledge |isbn=9781134218233 |page=13 |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150320203824/http://books.google.com/books?id=0nLwAihlibcC&amp;pg=PA13 |archive-date=March 20, 2015 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Vietnam. As the second phase of operation &quot;Thayer,&quot; the 1st Air Cavalry Division (airmobile) is having... - NARA - 530612.tif|thumb|U.S. soldiers searching a village for potential [[Viet Cong]] during the [[Vietnam War]] in 1966]] [[File:Vietnamdem.jpg|thumb|An [[Opposition to United States involvement in the Vietnam War|anti-Vietnam War demonstration]] in 1967]] Amid the Cold War, the United States entered the [[Vietnam War]], whose growing unpopularity fed already existing social movements, including those among women, minorities, and young people. [[Feminism]] and the [[environmental movement]] became political forces, and progress continued toward [[civil rights]] for all Americans. A [[counterculture of the 1960s|counterculture revolution]] swept through the nation and much of the western world in the late sixties and early seventies, further dividing Americans in a &quot;culture war&quot; but also bringing forth more liberated social views.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Chapman |first=Roger |title=Culture Wars: An Encyclopedia of Issues, Voices, and Viewpoints |date=2009}}&lt;/ref&gt; Frustrations with the seemingly slow progress of the integration movement led to the emergence of more radical politics, such as [[Black Power]] movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Joseph |first=Peniel E. |date=2001 |title=Black Liberation without Apology: Reconceptualizing the Black Power Movement. |journal=The Black Scholar |volume=31 |issue=3–4 |pages=2–19 |doi=10.1080/00064246.2001.11431152 |s2cid=142923969}}&lt;/ref&gt; The summer of 1967 saw opposing philosophies in two widespread movements, the more peaceful [[summer of love]] and the radical [[Long, hot summer of 1967|long, hot summer]], which included nationwide riots.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=The Riots of the Long, Hot Summer |url=https://www.britannica.com/story/the-riots-of-the-long-hot-summer |access-date=2024-06-02 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Martin Luther King Jr. was [[Assassination of Martin Luther King Jr.|assassinated in 1968]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:3&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Lupo |first=Lindsey |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=pmeKBTPzj3gC&amp;pg=PA123 |title=Flak-Catchers: One Hundred Years of Riot Commission Politics in America |date=2010 |publisher=Lexington Books |isbn=9780739138120 |pages=123–124 |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151016105918/https://books.google.com/books?id=pmeKBTPzj3gC&amp;pg=PA123 |archive-date=October 16, 2015 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Following his death, there were [[King assassination riots|further riots]], and others led the movement, most notably his wife, [[Coretta Scott King]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:3&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last1=Magazine |first1=Smithsonian |last2=Boissoneault |first2=Lorraine |title=Martin Luther King Jr.'s Assassination Sparked Uprisings in Cities Across America |url=https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/martin-luther-king-jrs-assassination-sparked-uprisings-cities-across-america-180968665/ |access-date=2024-06-02 |website=Smithsonian Magazine |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The modern [[gay rights movement]] started after the [[Stonewall riots]] in 1969.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-06-01 |title=How the Stonewall uprising ignited the pride movement |url=https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/stonewall-uprising-ignited-modern-lgbtq-rights-movement |access-date=2024-06-02 |website=History |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; A new consciousness of the inequality of American women began sweeping the nation, starting with the 1963 publication of [[Betty Friedan]]'s best-seller, ''[[The Feminine Mystique]]'', which critiqued the American cultural idea that women could only find fulfillment through their roles as wives, mothers, and keepers of the home, arguing that women should join the workforce. In 1966, Friedan and others established the [[National Organization for Women]] (NOW) to advocate for women's rights.{{Sfn|Glenda Riley}}{{Sfn|Zophy}} Protests began, and the new women's liberation movement grew in size and power, gaining much media attention. There were striking gains for women in medicine, law, and business, while only a few were elected to office.&lt;ref name=&quot;:15&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Critchlow |first=Donald T. |url=https://archive.org/details/phyllis_cri_2005_00_7649 |title=Phyllis Schlafly and Grassroots Conservatism: A Woman's Crusade |date=2005}}&lt;/ref&gt; The proposed [[Equal Rights Amendment]] to the Constitution, passed by Congress in 1972 was defeated by a conservative coalition mobilized by [[Phyllis Schlafly]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:15&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:16&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Mansbridge |first=Jane J. |url=https://archive.org/details/whywelostera0000mans |title=Why We Lost the ERA |date=1986 |publisher=University of Chicago Press |isbn=9780226503585}}&lt;/ref&gt; However, many federal laws stablished women's equal status under the law, such as those [[equal Pay Act of 1963|equalizing pay]], [[Civil Rights Act of 1964|employment]], [[Title IX|education]], [[Equal Employment Opportunity Act of 1972|employment opportunities]], and [[Equal Credit Opportunity Act|credit]] between genders, [[Pregnancy Discrimination Act|ending pregnancy discrimination]], and requiring organizations like NASA to admit women. State laws criminalized [[spousal abuse]] and [[marital rape]], and the Supreme Court ruled that the [[equal protection clause]] of the [[Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Fourteenth Amendment]] applied to women. Social custom and consciousness began to change, accepting women's equality. The controversial issue of abortion, deemed by the Supreme Court as a [[fundamental right]] in ''[[Roe v. Wade]]'' (1973), is still a point of debate today. ==== Nixon administration ==== {{Main article|Presidency of Richard Nixon}} [[File:Aldrin Apollo 11 original.jpg|thumb|[[Buzz Aldrin]] (shown) and [[Neil Armstrong]] became the first humans to walk on the [[Moon]] during [[NASA]]'s 1969 [[Apollo 11]] mission.|201x201px|left]] [[File:Leffler - WomensLib1970 WashingtonDC (cropped).jpg|thumb|Activists protesting for [[Women's liberation movement in North America|women's liberation]] in 1970]] In March 1968, Johnson announced he would not run for a second full term in office.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Elving |first=Ron |date=March 25, 2018 |title=Remembering 1968: LBJ Surprises Nation With Announcement He Won't Seek Re-Election |url=https://www.npr.org/2018/03/25/596805375/president-johnson-made-a-bombshell-announcement-50-years-ago |access-date=June 1, 2024 |website=NPR}}&lt;/ref&gt; This was partially because [[Robert F. Kennedy]], who was against the Vietnam War, entered the [[1968 Democratic Party presidential primaries|Democratic primary race]]. The war was increasingly controversial after the recent [[Tet Offensive]]. Kennedy was [[Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy|assassinated]] in June. The winner of the primaries was [[Hubert Humphrey]]; his policies regarding the Vietnam War led to [[1968 Democratic National Convention protests|riots at the party's convention]] that year.&lt;ref name=&quot;:9&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |title=PBS - Thematic Window: The Election of 1968 |url=https://www.pbs.org/johngardner/chapters/5a.html |access-date=2024-06-02 |website=www.pbs.org}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=AllPolitics - Democratic National Convention |url=https://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/conventions/chicago/facts/chicago68/index.shtml |access-date=2024-06-02 |website=www.cnn.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; Humphrey was defeated by Republican [[Richard Nixon]],&lt;ref name=&quot;:9&quot; /&gt; who largely continued the New Deal and Great Society programs he inherited.&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;{{Sfn|John Greene}} The Republican Party expanded its base throughout the South after 1968, largely due to its strength among socially conservative white [[Evangelicalism in the United States|Evangelical Protestants]] and [[Traditionalist Catholicism|traditionalist Roman Catholics]], adding to its traditional strength in the business community and suburbs. The Democratic party also started moving to the right-center.&lt;ref name=&quot;:17&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Caplow |first1=Theodore |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gwBvm8aF2bsC&amp;pg=PA337 |title=Recent Social Trends in the United States, 1960–1990 |last2=Bahr |first2=Howard M. |last3=Chadwick |first3=Bruce A. |last4=John Modell |date=1994 |publisher=McGill-Queen's Press |isbn=9780773512122 |page=337 |access-date=October 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160102091400/https://books.google.com/books?id=gwBvm8aF2bsC&amp;pg=PA337 |archive-date=January 2, 2016 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Nixon-depart.png|thumb|right|upright|[[Richard Nixon]] departing from the [[White House]], 1974]] Nixon created the [[Environmental Protection Agency]],&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Rothman |first=Lily |date=2017-03-22 |title=Here's Why the Environmental Protection Agency Was Created |url=https://time.com/4696104/environmental-protection-agency-1970-history/ |access-date=2024-06-02 |magazine=TIME |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[1972 visit by Richard Nixon to China|opened relations]] with China, and [[Vietnamization|attempted to gradually turn the Vietnam War effort over to]] the [[South Vietnam]]ese forces. He negotiated the [[Paris Peace Accords|peace treaty in 1973]] which secured the release of POWs and led to the withdrawal of U.S. troops. The war had cost the lives of 58,000 American troops. Nixon manipulated the fierce distrust between the Soviet Union and China to the advantage of the U.S., achieving ''[[détente]]'' with both parties.{{Sfn|John Greene}} He was also president during the U.S.' [[Apollo 11|landing on the Moon]] in 1969. The [[Watergate scandal]], involving Nixon's cover-up of his operatives' break-in into the [[Democratic National Committee]] headquarters at the [[Watergate office complex]] destroyed his political base, sent many aides to prison, and forced his resignation on August 9, 1974.{{Sfn|John Greene}} He was succeeded by Vice President [[Gerald Ford]], who [[pardoned Nixon]] for Watergate.{{Sfn|John Greene}}&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Pardoning Nixon |url=https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/pardoning-nixon |access-date=2024-06-02 |website=education.nationalgeographic.org |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Ford and Carter administrations ==== {{Main|Presidency of Gerald Ford|Presidency of Jimmy Carter}} The [[Fall of Saigon]] on April 30, 1975, ended the Vietnam War, and resulted in North and [[South Vietnam]] being reunited. Communist victories in neighboring [[Cambodia]] and [[Laos]] occurred in the same year, with the fall of Cambodia's capital, [[Phnom Penh]] on April 17 and the taking of Laos's capital, [[Vientiane]] on December 2.{{Sfn|John Greene}} In Central America, the U.S. government supported right-wing governments against left-wing groups, such as in [[Salvadoran civil war|El Salvador]] and [[Guatemalan civil war|Guatemala]]. In South America, they supported [[National Reorganization Process|Argentina]] and [[Military dictatorship of Chile|Chile]], who carried out [[Operation Condor]], a campaign of assassinations of exiled political opponents by [[Southern Cone]] governments, which was created at the behest of Chilean dictator [[Augusto Pinochet]] in 1975.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Tremlett |first=Giles |date=3 September 2020 |title=Operation Condor: the cold war conspiracy that terrorised South America |url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/sep/03/operation-condor-the-illegal-state-network-that-terrorised-south-america |accessdate=25 November 2023 |work=The Guardian}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |author=Good, Aaron |title=American Exception |publisher=Skyhorse Publishing |year=2022 |isbn=978-1510769137 |location=New York |pages=231–232, 237}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last1=Bevins |first1=Vincent |author-link=Vincent Bevins |title=[[The Jakarta Method]]: Washington's Anticommunist Crusade and the Mass Murder Program that Shaped Our World |date=2020 |publisher=[[PublicAffairs]] |isbn=978-1-5417-4240-6 |pages=200–206}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[OPEC oil embargo]] marked a long-term economic transition since, for the first time, energy prices skyrocketed, and American factories faced serious competition from foreign automobiles, clothing, electronics, and consumer goods. By the late 1970s, the economy suffered an [[1970s Energy Crisis|energy crisis]], slow economic growth, high unemployment, and very high inflation, coupled with high-interest rates. The term [[stagflation]] was coined to define these trends. Since economists agreed on [[deregulation]], many of the New Deal era regulations were ended, such as in transportation, banking, and telecommunications.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Derthick |first=Martha |title=The Politics of Deregulation |url=https://archive.org/details/politicsofderegu00dert |date=1985}}&lt;/ref&gt; Meanwhile, the first mass-market [[personal computer]]s were being developed in California's [[Silicon Valley]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Computer - Home Use, Microprocessors, Software |url=https://www.britannica.com/technology/computer/The-personal-computer-revolution |access-date=2024-06-01 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;[[File:Camp David, Menachem Begin, Anwar Sadat, 1978.jpg|thumb|right|201x201px|[[Anwar Sadat]], [[Jimmy Carter]] and [[Menachem Begin]] (left to right), at [[Camp David]], 1978]] [[Jimmy Carter]], running as someone who was not a part of the Washington political establishment, was elected president in 1976.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=People &amp; Events: The Election of 1976 |url=https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carter/peopleevents/e_1976.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20090519045846/http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carter/peopleevents/e_1976.html |archive-date=May 19, 2009 |access-date=January 31, 2010 |website=American Experience |publisher=PBS}}&lt;/ref&gt; Carter brokered the [[Camp David Accords]] between Israel and Egypt. In 1979, Iranian students stormed the U.S. embassy in [[Tehran]] and took 66 Americans hostage, resulting in the [[Iran hostage crisis]]. With the hostage crisis and continuing stagflation, Carter lost the [[1980 United States presidential election|1980 election]] to the Republican [[Ronald Reagan]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Urofsky |first=Melvin I. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=DBa6WQ5XCowC&amp;pg=PA545 |title=The American Presidents |date=2000 |publisher=Taylor &amp; Francis |isbn=978-0-8153-2184-2 |page=545 |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151016105918/https://books.google.com/books?id=DBa6WQ5XCowC&amp;pg=PA545 |archive-date=October 16, 2015 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; On January 20, 1981, minutes after Carter's term ended, the remaining U.S. captives were released. ==Contemporary America (1981–present)== {{Main|History of the United States (1980–1991)|History of the United States (1991–2008)|History of the United States (2008–present)}} === Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations === {{Main|Presidency of Ronald Reagan|Presidency of George H. W. Bush|Post–Cold War era|}} [[File:1981–1989 monthly unemployment, inflation, and interest rates.svg|left|thumb|Monthly unemployment, inflation, and interest rates from January 1981 to January 1989]] The Republican Party's central leader by 1980 was president [[Ronald Reagan]], whose conservative policies produced a major [[political realignment]] with his [[1980 United States presidential election|1980]] and [[1984 United States presidential election|1984]] landslide elections.&lt;ref name=&quot;:17&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:18&quot; /&gt; Reagan's [[neoliberal]] economic policies (dubbed &quot;[[Reaganomics]]&quot;), including the implementation of the [[Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981]], lowered the top [[marginal tax rate]] from 70% to 28% over the course of seven years.&lt;ref name=&quot;:18&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |date=July 10, 2007 |title=Effective Federal Tax Rates: 1979–2001 |url=http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=5324&amp;type=0&amp;sequence=0 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://archive.today/20070509233656/http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=5324&amp;type=0&amp;sequence=0 |archive-date=May 9, 2007 |access-date=April 2, 2012 |publisher=Bureau of Economic Analysis}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last=Gerstle|first=Gary|author-link=Gary Gerstle|date=2022 |title=The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order: America and the World in the Free Market Era|url=https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-neoliberal-order-9780197519646?cc=us&amp;lang=en&amp;|location= |publisher=[[Oxford University Press]]|pages=121–128|isbn=978-0197519646}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last=Bartel|first=Fritz|date=2022 |title=The Triumph of Broken Promises: The End of the Cold War and the Rise of Neoliberalism|url=https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674976788|location= |publisher=[[Harvard University Press]]|pages=18–19|isbn=9780674976788}}&lt;/ref&gt; Reagan continued to downsize government taxation and regulation;{{Sfn|Wilentz|pages=140–141}} New Deal and Great Society programs were ended.&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt; The U.S. experienced a [[Early 1980s recession|recession in 1982]], but after inflation decreased, unemployment then decreased, and the economic growth rate increased from 4.5% in 1982 to 7.2% in 1984.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=November 8, 2008 |title=The United States Unemployment Rate |url=http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080920034354/http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp |archive-date=September 20, 2008 |access-date=January 31, 2010 |website=Miseryindex.us}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Sfn|Wilentz|pages=170}} However, homelessness and economic inequality also rose.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last=Mitchell|first=Don |author-link=Don Mitchell (geographer)|date=2020 |title=Mean Streets: Homelessness, Public Space, and the Limits of Capital|url=https://ugapress.org/book/9780820356907/mean-streets/|location= |publisher=[[University of Georgia Press]]|page=62 |isbn=9-780-8203-5690-7}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last=Patterson |first=James T. |author-link=James T. Patterson (historian) |year=2005 |title=Restless Giant: The United States from Watergate to Bush V. Gore |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=03s7DwAAQBAJ |publisher=[[Oxford University Press]]|pages=166–167|isbn=978-0-19-512216-9}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Reagan administration's expansion of the [[War on Drugs]] led to an [[United States incarceration rate|increase in incarceration]], particularly among African Americans, with the number of people imprisoned for drug offences rising from 50,000 to 400,000 between 1980 and 1997.&lt;ref name=&quot;:19&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-05-27 |title=War on Drugs - History &amp; Mass Incarceration |url=https://www.britannica.com/topic/war-on-drugs |access-date=2024-06-02 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2021-07-26 |title=50-year war on drugs imprisoned millions of Black Americans |url=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/50-year-war-on-drugs-imprisoned-millions-of-black-americans |access-date=2024-06-01 |website=PBS NewsHour |language=en-us}}&lt;/ref&gt; Manufacturing industries moving out of inner cities increased poverty in those areas; poverty increased drug dealing and contributed to the [[crack epidemic]], which in turn led to increased crime and incarceration.&lt;ref name=&quot;:19&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-04-16 |title=Crack epidemic - US History, Causes &amp; Effects |url=https://www.britannica.com/topic/crack-epidemic |access-date=2024-06-02 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The government also [[Ronald Reagan and AIDS|reacted slowly]] to the [[HIV/AIDS in the United States|AIDS crisis]], and banned reliable information on the disease, which led to higher infection rates.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Lopez |first=German |date=2015-12-01 |title=The Reagan administration's unbelievable response to the HIV/AIDS epidemic |url=https://www.vox.com/2015/12/1/9828348/ronald-reagan-hiv-aids |access-date=2024-06-01 |website=Vox |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Lawson |first=Richard |date=2015-12-01 |title=The Reagan Administration's Unearthed Response to the AIDS Crisis Is Chilling |url=https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/reagan-administration-response-to-aids-crisis |access-date=2024-06-01 |magazine=Vanity Fair |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:President Ronald Reagan making his Berlin Wall speech.jpg|thumb|[[Ronald Reagan]] at the [[Brandenburg Gate]] challenges Soviet general secretary [[Mikhail Gorbachev]] to [[Tear down this wall!|tear down]] the [[Berlin Wall]] in 1987, shortly before the end of the [[Cold War]].]]Reagan ordered a buildup of the U.S. military, incurring additional budget deficits.&lt;ref name=&quot;:20&quot; /&gt; The 1983 [[invasion of Grenada]] and 1986 [[1986 United States bombing of Libya|bombing of Libya]] were popular in the U.S., though Reagan's backing of the [[Contras|Contra]] rebels was mired in the controversy over the [[Iran–Contra affair]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last1=Ehrman |first1=John |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=CNtNj1oJnXEC |title=Debating the Reagan Presidency |last2=Flamm |first2=Michael W. |date=2009 |publisher=Rowman &amp; Littlefield |isbn=9780742570573 |pages=101–182 |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151016105918/https://books.google.com/books?id=CNtNj1oJnXEC |archive-date=October 16, 2015 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Reagan also introduced a complicated missile defense system known as the [[Strategic Defense Initiative]] (SDI). The Soviets reacted harshly because they thought it violated the 1972 [[Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty]], and would upset the balance of power by giving the U.S. a major military advantage, so they stopped negotiating [[disarmament]] deals until the late 1980s.&lt;ref name=&quot;:20&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Zelizer |first=Julian E. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=r_gH5s4B2SEC&amp;pg=PA350 |title=Arsenal of Democracy: The Politics of National Security—From World War II to the War on Terrorism |date=2010 |publisher=Basic Books |isbn=9780465015078 |pages=350 |author-link=Julian Zelizer |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151016105918/https://books.google.com/books?id=r_gH5s4B2SEC&amp;pg=PA350 |archive-date=October 16, 2015 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Historians debate over if the SDI forced Soviet leader [[Mikhail Gorbachev]] to [[Perestroika|initiate radical reforms]], or whether the [[Era of Stagnation|deterioration of the Soviet economy]] alone forced the reforms.{{Sfn|van Dijk}} [[File:USAF F-16A F-15C F-15E Desert Storm edit2.jpg|thumb|US Air Force aircraft fly over oil fields which had been destroyed by the retreating Iraqi army in 1991's [[Gulf War|Operation Desert Shield]].]] Reagan met four times with Gorbachev, and their summit conferences led to the signing of the [[Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty]]. Gorbachev tried to save communism in the Soviet Union, first by ending the expensive [[nuclear arms race]] with America.{{Sfn|Wilentz|pages=243–244}} However, the [[Dissolution of the Soviet Union|Soviet Union collapsed]] in 1991, ending the Cold War.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-05-30 |title=Cold War - Summary, Causes, History, Years, Timeline, &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/Cold-War |access-date=2024-06-01 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; For the remainder of the 20th century, the United States emerged as the world's sole remaining superpower and continued to intervene in international affairs during the 1990s.{{Sfn|Wilentz|pages=400}} The [[Gulf War]] against [[Iraq]] started during [[George H. W. Bush|George H.W. Bush]]'s administration.{{Sfn|Wilentz|pages=400}} The war started when Iraq [[Iraqi invasion of Kuwait|invaded neighboring Kuwait]] in 1990. After a &quot;massive&quot;, international [[Coalition of the Gulf War|U.S.-led offensive]], Kuwait was taken back. Under Bush, the U.S. also became involved in wars in [[United States invasion of Panama|Panama]], [[Operation Gothic Serpent|Somalia]], [[Bosnian War|Bosnia]], and [[Croatian War of Independence|Croatia]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Somalia intervention {{!}} UN Peacekeeping, US Military &amp; Humanitarian Aid {{!}} Britannica |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/Somalia-intervention |access-date=2024-07-21 |website=www.britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Operation Just Cause {{!}} Summary, Panama, Casualties, &amp; Rock Music {{!}} Britannica |url=https://www.britannica.com/topic/United-States-invasion-of-Panama |access-date=2024-07-21 |website=www.britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Decision to Intervene: How the War in Bosnia Ended |url=https://www.brookings.edu/articles/decision-to-intervene-how-the-war-in-bosnia-ended/ |access-date=2024-07-21 |website=Brookings |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1992, there were [[1992 Los Angeles riots|riots in Los Angeles]] over [[Police brutality in the United States|police brutality]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-06-24 |title=Los Angeles Riots of 1992 {{!}} Summary, Deaths, &amp; Facts {{!}} Britannica |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/Los-Angeles-Riots-of-1992 |access-date=2024-07-21 |website=www.britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Clinton administration === {{Main article|Presidency of Bill Clinton|Third Way (United States)|Republican Revolution}} [[File:Oklahomacitybombing-DF-ST-98-01356.jpg|thumb|250x250px|Ruins of the aftermath of the [[Oklahoma City bombing]] in 1995]] Following [[1992 United States presidential election|his election in 1992]], President [[Bill Clinton]] oversaw one of the longest periods of economic expansion and unprecedented gains in securities values. President Clinton worked with the Republican Congress to pass the [[Economic policy of the Bill Clinton administration|first balanced federal budget]] in 30 years.{{Sfn|Wilentz|pages=400}} Much of the economic boom was a side effect of the [[Digital Revolution]], and new business opportunities created by the [[Internet]] (which started as the government project [[ARPANET]]).&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=H. |first=Salus, Peter |url=http://worldcat.org/oclc/31754973 |title=Casting the net : from ARPANET to Internet and beyond |date=1995 |publisher=Addison-Wesley Pub. Co |isbn=0-201-87674-4 |oclc=31754973}}&lt;/ref&gt; During Clinton's administration, the U.S. was involved in wars in [[Operation Uphold Democracy|Haiti]] and [[Kosovo War|Kosovo]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Bunyan |first=Rachael |date=2019-09-20 |title=25 Years After 'Operation Uphold Democracy,' Experts Say the Oft-Forgotten U.S. Military Intervention Still Shapes Life in Haiti |url=https://time.com/5682135/haiti-military-anniversary/ |access-date=2024-07-21 |magazine=TIME |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Kosovo conflict {{!}} Summary &amp; Facts {{!}} Britannica |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/Kosovo-conflict |access-date=2024-07-21 |website=www.britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; White Democrats in the South lost dominance of the Democratic Party in the 1990s.&lt;ref name=&quot;:17&quot; /&gt; Conservative Republicans heavily won the [[1994 United States elections|1994 midterm elections]] in a &quot;[[Republican Revolution]]&quot; which was built around the [[Contract with America]] policy agenda.&lt;ref name=&quot;:21&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Glass |first=Andrew |date=November 8, 2007 |title=Congress runs into 'Republican Revolution' Nov. 8, 1994 |url=https://www.politico.com/story/2007/11/congress-runs-into-republican-revolution-nov-8-1994-006757 |access-date=June 1, 2024 |website=Politico}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Completing the Revolution |url=https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/first/n/novak-revolution.html?scp=3&amp;sq=America%2527s%2520Political%2520Parties:%2520Power%2520and%2520Principle&amp;st=Search |access-date=2024-06-01 |website=archive.nytimes.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Newt Gingrich]] was chosen as House Speaker,&lt;ref name=&quot;:21&quot; /&gt; and he would heavily influence the Republican Party to engage in &quot;confrontational&quot; political speech.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2020-07-07 |title=How Newt Gingrich Shaped The Republican Party |url=https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/07/07/newt-gingrich-republican-party |access-date=2024-06-01 |website=www.wbur.org |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Zelizer |first=Julian E. |date=2020-07-07 |title=How Newt Gingrich Laid the Groundwork for Trump's Republican Party |url=https://time.com/5863457/how-newt-gingrich-laid-the-groundwork-for-trumps-republican-party/ |access-date=2024-06-02 |magazine=TIME |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; In response, in June 1995, Clinton shifted his policies more towards the center from the left. This did not majorly increase his approval, but rather, his leadership after the [[Oklahoma City bombing]] in April did.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=DeVroy |first=Ann |title=Clinton's Move to Center hasn't Spurred Ratings |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1995/07/11/clintons-move-to-center-hasnt-spurred-ratings/323e0e45-c8f3-4022-8737-e33dbca78f86/ |access-date=June 1, 2024 |newspaper=The Washington Post |url-access=subscription |url-status=live |archive-url=https://archive.today/20240602043111/https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1995/07/11/clintons-move-to-center-hasnt-spurred-ratings/323e0e45-c8f3-4022-8737-e33dbca78f86/ |archive-date=June 2, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; He won in the [[1996 United States presidential election|1996 presidential elections]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-05-31 |title=United States presidential election of 1996 - Clinton vs. Dole, History, &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/United-States-presidential-election-of-1996 |access-date=2024-06-02 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1998, [[impeachment of Bill Clinton|Clinton was impeached]] by the House of Representatives on charges of [[lying under oath]] about a sexual relationship with White House intern [[Monica Lewinsky]]. He was acquitted by the Senate. The failure of impeachment and the Democratic gains in the 1998 election forced Gingrich to resign from Congress.{{Sfn|Wilentz|pages=400}} [[File:Nasdaq Composite dot-com bubble.svg|thumb|The [[Nasdaq Composite]] index swelled with the [[dot-com bubble]] in the optimistic &quot;[[New economy]]&quot;. The bubble burst in 2000.]] In 2000, the [[dot-com bubble]], a widespread [[overvaluation]] of Internet company stocks, burst and hurt the U.S. economy.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Dot-com bubble - Definition, History, &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/dot-com-bubble |access-date=2024-07-06 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |last=Geier |first=Ben |date=2015-03-12 |title=What Did We Learn From the Dotcom Stock Bubble of 2000? |url=https://time.com/3741681/2000-dotcom-stock-bust/ |access-date=2024-07-06 |magazine=TIME |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The close [[2000 United States presidential election|presidential election in 2000]] between Governor [[George W. Bush]] and [[Al Gore]] helped lay the seeds for [[political polarization]] to come. The vote in the decisive states of New Mexico and Florida was extremely close and produced a dramatic [[2000 United States presidential election recount in Florida|dispute over the counting of votes]].{{Sfn|Wilentz|pages=420–427}} Bush ultimately won. Including 2000, the Democrats outpolled the Republicans in the national vote in every election from 1992 to 2020, except for 2004.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Election and voting information |url=https://www.fec.gov/introduction-campaign-finance/election-and-voting-information/ |access-date=2022-09-24 |website=FEC.gov |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; === George W. Bush administration === {{Main article|Presidency of George W. Bush|September 11 attacks|War on terror}} [[File:Explosion following the plane impact into the South Tower (WTC 2) - B6019~11.jpg|thumb|[[United Airlines Flight 175]] crashes into the [[2 World Trade Center|South Tower]] of the [[World Trade Center (1973–2001)|World Trade Center complex]] in [[New York City]] during the [[September 11 attacks]].]] On September 11, 2001 (9/11), the United States was struck by a [[terrorist attack]], when 19 [[al-Qaeda]] hijackers commandeered four commercial planes to be used in [[suicide attack]]s. Two were crashed intentionally into both Twin Towers of the [[World Trade Center (1973–2001)|World Trade Center]] in [[New York City]], and a third into [[the Pentagon]] in [[Arlington, Virginia]]. The [[United Airlines Flight 93|fourth plane]] was re-taken by the passengers and crew of the aircraft, and it was crashed into an [[Stonycreek Township, Somerset County, Pennsylvania|empty field in Pennsylvania]], killing everyone on board and saving whatever target the terrorists were aiming for. Every building of the World Trade Center partially or completely [[Collapse of the World Trade Center|collapsed]], massively damaging the surrounding area and blanketing Lower Manhattan in [[Health effects arising from the September 11 attacks|toxic dust clouds]]. A total of 2,977 victims died in the attacks. In response, on September 20, Bush announced a &quot;[[war on terror]]&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-05-20 |title=September 11 attacks - History, Summary, Location, Timeline, Casualties, &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/September-11-attacks |access-date=2024-06-02 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=How many people were killed in the September 11 attacks? |url=https://www.britannica.com/question/How-many-people-were-killed-in-the-September-11-attacks |access-date=2024-06-02 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Address to the Nation September 11, 2001.webm|thumb|Bush's address to the American people on the night of the September 11 attacks]] [[File:Marines in Saddams palace DM-SD-04-12222.jpg|thumb|U.S. Marines prepare to storm one of [[Saddam Hussein]]'s palaces during the [[2003 invasion of Iraq]].]] In October 2001, the U.S. and [[NATO]] [[United States invasion of Afghanistan|invaded Afghanistan]] and ousted the [[Taliban]] regime, which had harbored al-Qaeda and its leader [[Osama bin Laden]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Sanger |first=David E. |title=Confront and Conceal: Obama's Secret Wars and Surprising Use of American Power |url=https://archive.org/details/confrontconcealo00sang |date=2012 |chapter=1–5 |publisher=Crown Publishers |isbn=9780307718020 |author-link=David E. Sanger}}&lt;/ref&gt; Bin Laden then escaped to Pakistan, starting a [[Manhunt for Osama bin Laden|manhunt]] for him.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=2011-07-21 |title=Bin Laden's Tora Bora escape, just months after 9/11 |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-14190032 |access-date=2024-06-12 |work=BBC News |language=en-GB}}&lt;/ref&gt; The U.S. established new domestic efforts to prevent future attacks. The [[Patriot Act]] increased the power of government to monitor communications and removed legal restrictions on intelligence sharing between federal law enforcement agencies.&lt;ref name=&quot;:31&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |title=The Presidency of George W. Bush: A First Historical Assessment |date=2010 |editor-last=Zelizer |editor-first=Julian E. |editor-link=Julian Zelizer |pages=59–87}}&lt;/ref&gt; The government's [[indefinite detention]] of terrorism suspects captured abroad at the [[Guantanamo Bay detention camp]], a prison at [[Guantanamo Bay Naval Base|the U.S. naval base]] in [[Guantanamo Bay]], Cuba, led to allegations of human rights abuses and violations of international law.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=June 18, 2008 |title=Report Details Alleged Abuse of Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib Detainees |url=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/military-jan-june08-detainees_06-18 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20141006082219/http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/military-jan-june08-detainees_06-18 |archive-date=October 6, 2014 |access-date=October 1, 2014 |website=PBS NewsHour}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=What We Do: Guantanamo |url=https://ccrjustice.org/home/what-we-do/issues/guantanamo |access-date=May 28, 2020 |website=Center for Constitutional Rights |quote=Since the prison opened in 2002, CCR has been at the forefront of the legal battle against indefinite detention and torture at Guantánamo, representing many current and former detainees.}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=January 24, 2011 |title=US: Prolonged Indefinite Detention Violates International Law: Current Detention Practices at Guantanamo Unjustified and Arbitrary |url=https://www.hrw.org/news/2011/01/24/us-prolonged-indefinite-detention-violates-international-law |website=Human Rights Watch}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Department of Homeland Security]] was created to lead federal counter-terrorism activities.&lt;ref name=&quot;:31&quot; /&gt; In March 2003, the U.S. launched [[2003 invasion of Iraq|an invasion of Iraq]], claiming Iraqi dictator [[Saddam Hussein]] had [[weapons of mass destruction]] (WMDs) and the Iraqi people needed to liberated from him. Intelligence backing WMDs were later found to be inaccurate. The war led to the collapse of the Iraqi government and the eventual [[Capture of Saddam Hussein|capture]] of Hussein.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=April 25, 2005 |title=CIA's final report: No WMD found in Iraq |website=NBC News |agency=Associated Press |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7634313 |url-status=live |access-date=April 22, 2008 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130305122359/http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7634313 |archive-date=March 5, 2013}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |title=The Presidency of George W. Bush: A First Historical Assessment |date=2010 |editor-last=Zelizer |editor-first=Julian |editor-link=Julian Zelizer |pages=88–113}}&lt;/ref&gt; Despite some initial successes early in the invasion, the continued [[Iraq War]] fueled [[protests against the Iraq War|international protests]] and gradually saw [[Public opinion in the United States on the invasion of Iraq|domestic support decline]] as many people questioned if the invasion was worth the cost.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Clifton |first=Eli |date=November 7, 2011 |title=Poll: 62 Percent Say Iraq War Wasn't Worth Fighting |url=http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/11/07/362734/poll-62-percent-say-iraq-war-wasnt-worth-fighting |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160305110015/http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/11/07/362734/poll-62-percent-say-iraq-war-wasnt-worth-fighting |archive-date=March 5, 2016 |access-date=February 24, 2012 |website=ThinkProgress}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Milbank |first1=Dana |last2=Deane |first2=Claudia |date=June 8, 2005 |title=Poll Finds Dimmer View of Iraq War |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]] |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/07/AR2005060700296.html |url-status=live |access-date=October 10, 2010 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110221202536/http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/07/AR2005060700296.html |archive-date=February 21, 2011}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2005, [[Hurricane Katrina]] killed 1,800 people around New Orleans after the city's [[levee]]s [[Effects of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans|broke]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-06-03 |title=Hurricane Katrina - Deaths, Damage, &amp; Facts |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/Hurricane-Katrina |access-date=2024-06-12 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2007, after years of violence by the [[Iraqi insurgency (2003–2011)|Iraqi insurgency]], Bush deployed more troops in a strategy dubbed &quot;[[Iraq War troop surge of 2007|the surge]]&quot;. While the death toll decreased, the political stability of Iraq remained in doubt.{{Sfn|Wilentz|pages=453}} In December 2007, the U.S. unemployment rate rose from 5% to 10%.&lt;ref name=&quot;:23&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal |date=April 2018 |title=Great Recession, great recovery? Trends from the Current Population Survey |url=https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2018/article/great-recession-great-recovery.htm |journal=Monthly Labor Review |publisher=Bureau of Labor Statistics}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2008, the U.S. entered the [[Great Recession in the United States|Great Recession]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Payne |first=Thomas |title=The Great Recession: What Happened |date=2012}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Rosenberg, Jerry M. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=8YSYIHuSX2oC |title=The Concise Encyclopedia of The Great Recession 2007–2012 |date=2012 |publisher=Scarecrow Press |isbn=9780810883406 |edition=2nd |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150320012939/http://books.google.com/books?id=8YSYIHuSX2oC |archive-date=March 20, 2015 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Multiple overlapping crises were involved, especially the [[United States housing market correction|housing market crisis]], a [[subprime mortgage crisis]], [[2000s energy crisis|soaring oil prices]], an [[effects of the 2008–2010 automotive industry crisis on the United States|automotive industry crisis]], rising unemployment, and the worst [[2007–2008 financial crisis|financial crisis]] since the Great Depression. The financial crisis threatened the stability of the entire economy in September 2008, when [[Lehman Brothers]] failed, and other giant banks were in grave danger.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Kolb |first=Robert W. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=k15gTwOtMcwC&amp;pg=PA96 |title=The Financial Crisis of Our Time |date=2011 |publisher=[[Oxford University Press]] |isbn=9780199792788 |page=96ff |access-date=June 27, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151016105918/https://books.google.com/books?id=k15gTwOtMcwC&amp;pg=PA96 |archive-date=October 16, 2015 |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Starting in October, the federal government lent $245&amp;nbsp;billion to financial institutions through the bipartisan [[Troubled Asset Relief Program]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Riley |first=Charles |date=February 3, 2011 |title=Treasury close to profit on TARP bank loans |work=CNN Money |url=https://money.cnn.com/2011/02/02/news/economy/tarp/index.htm |url-status=live |access-date=March 1, 2011 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110309105159/http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/02/news/economy/tarp/index.htm |archive-date=March 9, 2011}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=November 5, 2010 |title='I'd Approve TARP Again': George W. Bush |url=https://www.cnbc.com/2010/11/05/id-approve-tarp-again-george-w-bush.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151016105918/https://www.cnbc.com/id/40028600/I_d_Approve_TARP_Again_George_W_Bush |archive-date=October 16, 2015}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Obama administration === {{Main||Great Recession in the United States|Presidency of Barack Obama}} ==== First term ==== [[File:Barack Obama inaugural address.ogv|thumb|[[Barack Obama]]'s [[2009 inauguration]] speech|left]]The unpopularity of Bush and the Iraq War, along with the financial crisis, led to the [[2008 United States presidential election|2008 election]] of [[Barack Obama]], the first multiracial&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |author=&lt;!-- Staff writer(s); no by-line. --&gt; |date=November 12, 2008 |title=Barack Obama: Face Of New Multiracial Movement? |url=https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96916824 |access-date=October 4, 2014 |newspaper=NPR}}&lt;/ref&gt; president, with African-American or Kenyan ancestry.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Crotty |first=William |date=2009 |title=Policy and Politics: The Bush Administration and the 2008 Presidential Election |journal=Polity |volume=41 |issue=3 |pages=282–311 |doi=10.1057/pol.2009.3 |s2cid=154471046}}&lt;/ref&gt; He won by a wide electoral margin.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=United States Presidential Election of 2008 - Obama, McCain &amp; Issues |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/United-States-presidential-election-of-2008 |access-date=2024-07-06 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; He signed the [[Don't Ask, Don't Tell Repeal Act]], which allowed people to serve in the military while openly gay.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-06-29 |title=Don't Ask, Don't Tell (DADT) |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/Dont-Ask-Dont-Tell |access-date=2024-07-06 | website=Britannica.com |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; To help the economy, he signed the [[American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009]],&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Bernstein |first=Jared |date=February 18, 2019 |title=Lessons from the Recovery Act on its 10-year anniversary |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/02/18/lessons-recovery-act-its-year-anniversary/ |access-date=July 6, 2024 |newspaper=The Washington Post}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[cash for clunkers|Consumer Assistance to Recycle and Save Act]],&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Economic Analysis of the Car Allowance Rebate System (&quot;Cash for Clunkers&quot;) |url=https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/node/5397 |access-date=2024-07-06 |website=The White House |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; the [[Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act]] (informally &quot;Obamacare&quot;),&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Buttle |first=Rhett |title=14 Years Of The Affordable Care Act: What It Means For Entrepreneurs |url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/rhettbuttle/2024/03/22/14-years-of-the-affordable-care-act-what-it-means-for-entrepreneurs/ |access-date=2024-07-06 |website=Forbes |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; and the [[Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Appelbaum |first1=Binyamin |last2=Herszenhorn |first2=David M. |date=2010-07-15 |title=Financial Overhaul Signals Shift on Deregulation |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/16/business/16regulate.html |access-date=2024-07-06 |work=The New York Times |language=en-US |issn=0362-4331}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Cooper |first=Helene |date=2010-07-21 |title=Obama Signs Overhaul of Financial System |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/22/business/22regulate.html |access-date=2024-07-06 |work=The New York Times |language=en-US |issn=0362-4331}}&lt;/ref&gt; The employment rate began falling as the economy and labor markets experienced a recovery.&lt;ref name=&quot;:23&quot; /&gt; These changes to the economic system created new political movements, such as the [[Modern liberalism in the United States|liberal]] [[Occupy movement]] and the [[Conservatism in the United States|conservative]] [[Tea Party movement]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=October 22, 2011 |title=Occupy Wall Street, Tea Party: United In Distrust |url=https://www.npr.org/2011/10/22/141619672/finding-common-ground-between-two-movements |access-date=July 6, 2024 |website=NPR}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:TeaPartyByFreedomFan.JPG|thumb|[[Tea Party protests|Tea Party protesters]] walk towards the [[United States Capitol]] during the [[Taxpayer March on Washington]] in 2009.]] The recession officially ended in June 2009, and the economy slowly began recovering.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Kaiser |first=Emily |date=September 20, 2010 |title=Recession ended in June 2009: NBER |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68J2JJ20100920 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20101219121957/http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68J2JJ20100920 |archive-date=December 19, 2010 |access-date=July 1, 2017 |work=Reuters}}&lt;/ref&gt; Following the [[2010 midterm elections]], which resulted in a Republican-controlled House of Representatives and a Democratic-controlled Senate,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Abramson |first=Paul R. |title=Change and Continuity in the 2008 and 2010 Elections |date=2011 |display-authors=etal}}&lt;/ref&gt; Congress was in [[Gridlock (politics)|gridlock]], as heated debates were held over whether or not to raise the [[debt ceiling]], extend tax cuts for citizens making over $250,000 annually, and how to address other key issues.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=December 22, 2011 |title=Congress Ends 2011 Mired in Gridlock |url=http://www.investorplace.com/2011/12/congress-ends-2011-mired-in-gridlock |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120104040658/http://www.investorplace.com/2011/12/congress-ends-2011-mired-in-gridlock |archive-date=January 4, 2012 |access-date=February 24, 2012 |website=InvestorPlace}}&lt;/ref&gt; These ongoing debates led to the [[Budget Control Act of 2011]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Khimm |first=Suzy |date=September 14, 2012 |title=The sequester, explained |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/09/14/the-sequester-explained/ |access-date=June 1, 2024 |newspaper=The Washington Post}}&lt;/ref&gt; The economic expansion that followed the Great Recession was the longest in U.S. history;&lt;ref name=&quot;Rushe&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Rushe |first=Dominic |date=April 29, 2020 |title=US economy shrinks 4.8% as coronavirus ends longest expansion in history |url=https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/29/us-economy-shrinks-coronavirus-ends-longest-expansion |work=The Guardian}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Bayly&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |last=Bayly |first=Lucy |date=April 29, 2020 |title=GDP falls by 4.8 percent, bringing longest economic expansion on record to abrupt halt |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/gdp-falls-4-8-percent-bringing-longest-economic-expansion-record-n1195106 |website=NBC News}}&lt;/ref&gt; the unemployment rate reached a 50-year low in 2019.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Long |first=Heather |date=May 3, 2019 |title=U.S. unemployment fell to 3.6 percent, lowest since 1969 |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/05/03/us-economy-added-jobs-april-unemployment-fell-percent-lowest-since |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Despite the strong economy, increases in the cost of living surpassed increases in wages.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Lowrey |first=Annie |date=February 7, 2020 |title=The Great Affordability Crisis Breaking America |url=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/great-affordability-crisis-breaking-america/606046 |work=The Atlantic}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Simon |first=Scott |date=February 15, 2020 |title=The U.S. Is In The Midst Of An Affordability Crisis, 'Atlantic' Writer Argues |url=https://www.npr.org/2020/02/15/806282714/the-u-s-is-in-the-midst-of-an-affordability-crisis-atlantic-writer-argues |website=Weekend Edition Saturday NPR}}&lt;/ref&gt; The economic expansion came to an end in early 2020, largely caused by the [[COVID-19 pandemic in the United States|COVID-19 pandemic]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Rushe&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Bayly&quot; /&gt; [[File:President Obama on Death of Osama bin Laden no watermark.webm|thumb|Obama announces the [[killing of Osama bin Laden]] in 2011.]] In 2009, Obama issued an [[Executive Order 13491|executive order banning the use of torture]],&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Baker |first=Peter |date=December 11, 2014 |title=Obama Catches Blame on Tactics of Torture That He Ended |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/11/us/politics/obama-effectiveness-cia-torture.html |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Barela&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Barela |first=Steven J. |date=February 12, 2016 |title=The New US Anti-Torture Law: A Genuine Step Forward |url=https://www.justsecurity.org/29273/anti-torture-law-genuine-step |journal=Just Security}}&lt;/ref&gt; a prohibition codified into law in 2015.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Zengerle |first=Patricia |date=June 16, 2015 |title=U.S. Senate passes ban on torture |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us-politics/us-senate-passes-ban-on-torture-idUSKBN0OW2R4/ |access-date=July 6, 2024 |website=Reuters}}&lt;/ref&gt; He ordered the closure of [[CIA black sites|secret CIA-run prisons]] overseas,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Shane |first=Scott |date=January 22, 2009 |title=Obama Orders Secret Prisons and Detention Camps Closed |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/11/us/politics/obama-effectiveness-cia-torture.html |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Savage |first=Charlie |date=January 25, 2017 |title=Trump Poised to Lift Ban on C.I.A. 'Black Site' Prisons |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/us/politics/cia-detainee-prisons.html |work=[[The New York Times]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; and [[Executive Order 13492|sought to close]] the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, but his efforts were stymied by Congress, which in 2011 enacted a measure blocking him from transferring any Guantanamo detainees to U.S. facilities. The number of inmates nonetheless was decreased.&lt;ref name=&quot;Rath&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Rath |first=Arun |date=January 19, 2017 |title=Trump Inherits Guantanamo's Remaining Detainees |url=https://www.npr.org/2017/01/19/510448989/trump-inherits-guantanamos-remaining-detainees |website=Morning Edition}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=January 14, 2017 |title=Why Obama failed to close Guantanamo |url=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/obama-failed-close-guantanamo |website=NewsHour |publisher=PBS}}&lt;/ref&gt; Obama reluctantly continued the war effort in Iraq until August 2010, when he declared that combat operations had ended. However, 50,000 American soldiers and military personnel were kept in Iraq for safety reasons until they [[Withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq (2007–2011)|left the country]] in December 2011.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=December 18, 2011 |title='The war is over': Last US soldiers leave Iraq |url=http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/18/9528197-the-war-is-over-last-us-soldiers-leave-iraq?lite |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160301044717/http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/18/9528197-the-war-is-over-last-us-soldiers-leave-iraq?lite |archive-date=March 1, 2016 |website=NBC News}}&lt;/ref&gt; Meanwhile, he increased involvement in Afghanistan, adding an additional 30,000 troops, while proposing to begin [[Withdrawal of U.S. troops from Afghanistan (2011–2016)|withdrawing troops]] in 2014.&lt;ref name=&quot;Barela&quot; /&gt; The U.S., with NATO, [[2011 military intervention in Libya|intervened]] in the [[Libyan civil war (2011)|Libyan Civil War]] for seven months in 2011.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Dyke |first=Joe |date=2024-05-16 |title=NATO Killed Civilians in Libya. It's Time to Admit It. |url=https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/20/nato-killed-civilians-in-libya-its-time-to-admit-it/ |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=Foreign Policy |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; In May 2011, Osama bin Laden [[Killing of Osama bin Laden|was killed]] in Pakistan in a raid ordered by Obama and conducted by [[United States Navy SEALs|Navy SEALs]]. While Al Qaeda was near collapse in Afghanistan, affiliated organizations continued to operate in Yemen and other remote areas, as the CIA used [[Unmanned combat aerial vehicle|drones]] to hunt down its leadership.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Baker |first1=Peter |last2=Cooper |first2=Helene |last3=Mazzetti |first3=Mark |date=May 1, 2011 |title=Bin Laden Is Dead, Obama Says |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/world/asia/osama-bin-laden-is-killed.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110505195308/http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/world/asia/osama-bin-laden-is-killed.html |archive-date=May 5, 2011 |access-date=February 27, 2017 |work=The New York Times}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |last=Bergen |first=Peter L. |title=Manhunt: The Ten-Year Search for Bin Laden—from 9/11 to Abbottabad |date=2012 |pages=250–261}}&lt;/ref&gt; In October, Obama [[Operation Observant Compass|sent troops to Central Africa]] to fight the [[Lord's Resistance Army]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2017-03-06 |title=EXCLUSIVE: Inside the Green Berets' hunt for brutal warlord |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/inside-green-berets-hunt-warlord-joseph-kony-n726076 |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=NBC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Second term ==== Following Obama's [[2012 United States presidential election|2012 re-election]], Congressional gridlock continued. Congressional Republicans' demands, like calling for the repeal of the Affordable Care Act, resulted in the [[2013 United States federal government shutdown|first government shutdown since the Clinton administration]], and almost led to the first default on U.S. debt since the 19th century. As a result of growing public frustration with both parties in Congress, Congressional approval ratings fell to record lows.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Gallup, Inc. |title=Congress' Job Approval Falls to 11% Amid Gov't Shutdown |date=October 7, 2013 |url=http://www.gallup.com/poll/165281/congress-job-approval-falls-amid-gov-shutdown.aspx |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20141006075722/http://www.gallup.com/poll/165281/congress-job-approval-falls-amid-gov-shutdown.aspx |archive-date=October 6, 2014 |access-date=October 1, 2014}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2012, the [[Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting]] in [[Newtown, Connecticut]] led to unsuccessful attempts from Obama to promote [[Gun politics in the United States|gun reform]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=4 Years After Sandy Hook, Obama Leaves a Legacy of Little Progress on Gun Laws |url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/years-sandy-hook-obama-leaves-legacy-progress-gun/story?id=44163755 |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=ABC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Boston Marathon bombing]] of 2013 killed three people and injured more than 260.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-04-15 |title=10th anniversary of Boston Marathon bombing marked with somber ceremony |url=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/10th-anniversary-of-boston-marathon-bombing-marked-with-somber-ceremony |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=PBS NewsHour |language=en-us}}&lt;/ref&gt; Also that year, NSA employee [[Edward Snowden]] [[Edward Snowden disclosures|leaked information]] regarding the NSA's [[PRISM|widespread program of surveilling American citizens]] through the Internet.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Sottek |first=T. C. |date=2013-07-17 |title=Everything you need to know about PRISM |url=https://www.theverge.com/2013/7/17/4517480/nsa-spying-prism-surveillance-cheat-sheet |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=The Verge |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2013, the U.S. also started a [[US military intervention in Niger|counter-terrorist invention]] in Niger,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-08-14 |title=Blindsided: Hours before the coup in Niger, U.S. diplomats said the country was stable |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/blindsided-hours-coup-niger-us-diplomats-said-country-was-stable-rcna99708 |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=NBC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; and began a covert operation to [[Syrian Train and Equip Program|train rebels in Syria]] who were fighting against the terrorist group [[ISIS]]. The latter program was publicized and [[US intervention in the Syrian civil war|expanded]] in 2014.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=2015-01-16 |title=US to send 400 troops to train Syrian rebels |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30847689 |access-date=2024-05-13 |work=BBC News |language=en-GB}}&lt;/ref&gt; That year, ISIS grew in scope in the Middle East, and inspired many terrorist attacks in the United States, including the [[2015 San Bernardino attack]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=The rise and fall of ISIL explained |url=https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/6/20/the-rise-and-fall-of-isil-explained |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=Al Jazeera |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Dale |first=Daniel |date=2023-10-24 |title=Fact check: Trump falsely claims the US had no terrorist attacks during his presidency |url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/23/politics/fact-check-trump-speech-new-hampshire/index.html |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=CNN Politics |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=San Bernardino Mass Shooting - What We Know |url=https://abc7.com/san-bernardino-regional-center-shooting-active-shooter/1107077/ |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=ABC7 Los Angeles |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The U.S. and its allies began a significant [[US-led intervention in Iraq (2014–2021)|military offensive against ISIS]] in Iraq which lasted from 2014 to 2021.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last1=Baldor |first1=Lolita |last2=Burns |first2=Robert |date=2021-12-10 |title=General says US troops to remain in Iraq |url=https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2021/12/09/general-says-us-troops-to-remain-in-iraq/ |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=Military Times |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-03-17 |title=Timeline of events: 20 years since U.S.-led invasion of Iraq |url=https://apnews.com/article/iraq-invasion-war-timeline-saddam-hussein-50828061c98e410063753045179bdcfb |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=AP News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; In December 2014, Obama officially ended the combat mission in Afghanistan and promised a withdrawal of almost all remaining U.S. troops at the end of 2016.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=December 29, 2014 |title=Statement by the President on the End of the Combat Mission in Afghanistan |url=https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/12/28/statement-president-end-combat-mission-afghanistan |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170121015947/https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/12/28/statement-president-end-combat-mission-afghanistan |archive-date=January 21, 2017 |access-date=January 18, 2015 |website=[[whitehouse.gov]] |via=[[NARA|National Archives]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; However, troops stayed until 2021.&lt;ref name=&quot;:38&quot; /&gt;[[File:White house Rainbow 20150626.png|thumb|The [[White House]] lit with rainbow colors in celebration of the [[Obergefell v. Hodges|legalization of gay marriage]] in 2015]]The [[Killing of Michael Brown|shooting]] of Black teen Michael Brown by police officer Darren Wilson, and a grand jury declining to charge Wilson with murder, led to the [[Ferguson unrest]] in Missouri in 2014 and 2015.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=2014-11-25 |title=Ferguson unrest: From shooting to nationwide protests |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30193354 |access-date=2024-05-13 |work=BBC News |language=en-GB}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2015, U.S. also joined the international [[Paris Agreement]] on [[climate change]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |date=October 30, 2020 |title=Factbox: Donald Trump's legacy - six policy takeaways |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN27F1GH/ |access-date=May 13, 2024 |website=Reuters}}&lt;/ref&gt; Meanwhile, debate over the issue of rights for the LGBT community, including [[same-sex marriage]], began to shift in favor of same-sex couples.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Civil Rights |url=http://www.pollingreport.com/civil.htm |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130428225441/http://www.pollingreport.com/civil.htm |archive-date=April 28, 2013 |access-date=October 1, 2014}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2012, President Obama became the first president to openly support same-sex marriage.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Gast |first=Phil |date=2012-05-09 |title=Obama announces he supports same-sex marriage - CNN Politics |url=https://www.cnn.com/2012/05/09/politics/obama-same-sex-marriage/index.html |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=CNN |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Supreme Court provided [[United States v. Windsor|federal recognition of same-sex marriages]] in 2013,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Barnes |first=Robert |date=June 26, 2013 |title=Supreme Court strikes down key part of Defense of Marriage Act |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/supreme-court/2013/06/26/f0039814-d9ab-11e2-a016-92547bf094cc_story.html |access-date=May 12, 2024 |newspaper=The Washington Post}}&lt;/ref&gt; and then legalized gay marriage nationwide with ''[[Obergefell v. Hodges]]'' in 2015.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2015-06-26 |title=Supreme Court declares nationwide right to same-sex marriage |url=https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-courts-marriage-supreme-court-of-the-united-states-united-states-government-9e1933cd1e1a4e969ab45f5952bbb45f |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=AP News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Trump administration === {{Main article|First presidency of Donald Trump|COVID-19 pandemic in the United States}} [[File:Donald Trump Victory Speech.webm|thumb|[[Donald Trump]]'s [[2016 United States presidential election|2016 presidential election]] victory speech]] In November 2016, following a [[2016 United States presidential election|contentious election]] against [[Hillary Clinton]], Republican [[Donald Trump]] was elected president.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=November 9, 2016 |title=The Latest: Trump promises 'I will not let you down |url=http://elections.ap.org/content/latest-donald-trump-elected-president |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161116163438/http://elections.ap.org/content/latest-donald-trump-elected-president |archive-date=November 16, 2016 |access-date=November 15, 2016 |website=Associated Press}}&lt;/ref&gt; The election's legitimacy was disputed when [[Crossfire Hurricane (FBI investigation)|the FBI]] and [[Senate Intelligence Committee report on Russian interference in the 2016 United States presidential election|Congress]] investigated if Russia [[Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections|interfered in the election]] to help Trump win. There were also [[Links between Trump associates and Russian officials|accusations of collusion]] between Trump's campaign and Russian officials. The [[Mueller report]] concluded that Russia attempted to help Trump's campaign, but there was no evidence of &quot;explicit&quot; collusion found.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Miller |first1=Greg |last2=Entous |first2=Adam |title=Declassified report says Putin 'ordered' effort to undermine faith in U.S. election and help Trump |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]] |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/intelligence-chiefs-expected-in-new-york-to-brief-trump-on-russian-hacking/2017/01/06/5f591416-d41a-11e6-9cb0-54ab630851e8_story.html |url-status=live |access-date=May 26, 2017 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170107010016/https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/intelligence-chiefs-expected-in-new-york-to-brief-trump-on-russian-hacking/2017/01/06/5f591416-d41a-11e6-9cb0-54ab630851e8_story.html |archive-date=January 7, 2017}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:36&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-05-17 |title=Durham report takeaways: A 'seriously flawed' Russia investigation and its lasting impact on the FBI |url=https://apnews.com/article/durham-report-fbi-trump-clinton-2016-campaign-f3039e651eeb35a09091c363419e6766 |access-date=2024-03-23 |website=AP News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=March 24, 2019 |title=Mueller Report Doesn't Find Russian Collusion, But Can't 'Exonerate' On Obstruction |url=https://www.npr.org/2019/03/24/706318191/trump-white-house-hasnt-seen-or-been-briefed-on-mueller-investigation-report |access-date=July 3, 2024 |website=NPR}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump, however, &quot;welcomed help from Russia&quot;; in July 2016, after [[WikiLeaks]] [[2016 Democratic National Committee email leak|published emails]] from the [[Democratic National Committee]] (DNC) – initially suspected to be obtained by Russian hackers – Trump publicly asked Russia to find emails that were deleted from [[Hillary Clinton email controversy|Clinton's private email server]] that she used as Obama's Secretary of State. In 2018, the DNC emails were confirmed to be obtained by a Russian hacker or hacker group named [[Guccifer 2.0]].&lt;ref name=&quot;:36&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Crowley |first=Michael |date=July 27, 2016 |title=Trump urges Russia to hack Clinton's email |url=https://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/trump-putin-no-relationship-226282 |access-date=July 3, 2024 |website=Politico}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=O'Harrow Jr. |first=Robert |date=March 27, 2016 |title=How Clinton's email scandal took root |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/how-clintons-email-scandal-took-root/2016/03/27/ee301168-e162-11e5-846c-10191d1fc4ec_story.html |access-date=July 3, 2024 |newspaper=The Washington Post}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=July 13, 2018 |title=How the Russians hacked the DNC and passed its emails to WikiLeaks |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-the-russians-hacked-the-dnc-and-passed-its-emails-to-wikileaks/2018/07/13/af19a828-86c3-11e8-8553-a3ce89036c78_story.html |access-date=July 3, 2024 |newspaper=The Washington Post}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Thoughts and Prayers Don't Save Lives (40369207261) (cropped).jpg|thumb|A demonstration organized in the wake of the [[Parkland shooting]] in Florida in 2018]]In the 2010s and early 2020s, Americans became more [[Political polarization in the United States|politically polarized]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-06-15 |title=Here's what's driving America's increasing political polarization |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meetthepressblog/s-s-driving-americas-increasing-political-polarization-rcna89559 |access-date=2024-06-08 |website=NBC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-03-08 |title=Listening to a divided America |url=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/listening-to-a-divided-america |access-date=2024-06-08 |website=PBS NewsHour |language=en-us}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Owens |first=Caitlin |date=August 7, 2023 |title=America's deepest partisan divides are getting deeper |url=https://www.axios.com/2023/08/07/americans-disagree-political-issues-divide-gallup-poll |access-date=June 8, 2024 |website=Axios}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Me Too movement|#MeToo]] movement exposed alleged sexual harassment and abuse in the workplace.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=February 21, 2020 |title=Me Too founder Tarana Burke discusses where we go from here |url=https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/02/me-too-founder-tarana-burke-discusses-where-we-go-from-here |access-date=March 8, 2021 |website=Harvard Gazette |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; Many celebrities were accused of misconduct or rape.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=August 6, 2020 |title=Stars accused of sexual harassment and assault |url=https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/hollywood-stars-accused-sexual-harassment-assault-gallery-1.3547625 |access-date=March 8, 2021 |website=nydailynews.com}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Sancton |first=Julian |date=2022-09-29 |title=#MeToo Five Years Later: A Timeline of Allegations, Accountability and Activism |url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/metoo-five-years-timeline-allegations-accountability-activism-1235228661/ |access-date=2024-07-03 |website=The Hollywood Reporter |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Black Lives Matter]] movement gained support after multiple police killings of African-Americans.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Capatosto |first=Victoria |title=A Brief History of Civil Rights in the United States |url=https://library.law.howard.edu/civilrightshistory/BLM |access-date=March 8, 2021 |website=library.law.howard.edu |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; White supremacy also grew.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=2017-08-13 |title=White supremacy: Are US right-wing groups on the rise? |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40915356 |website=BBC News |access-date=2024-06-08 |language=en-GB}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=January 25, 2021 |title='Throughline': The Rise Of The Modern White Power Movement |url=https://www.npr.org/2021/01/25/960253858/throughline-the-rise-of-the-modern-white-power-movement |access-date=June 8, 2024 |website=NPR}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Why is white supremacy growing in the United States? |url=https://www.aljazeera.com/program/the-bottom-line/2021/10/28/why-is-white-supremacy-growing-in-the-united-states |access-date=2024-06-08 |website=Al Jazeera |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[2017 Women's March]] against Trump's presidency was one of the largest protests in American history.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2018 |title=Largest Protests in American History |url=https://www.businessinsider.com/largest-marches-us-history-2017-2#the-womens-march-on-washington-january-21-2017-11 |website=Business Insider}}&lt;/ref&gt; Multiple mass shootings, including the 2016 [[Orlando nightclub shooting|Pulse Nightclub shooting]], 2017 [[Las Vegas shooting]], and 2018 [[Parkland shooting]], led to increased calls for gun reform, such as in the [[March for Our Lives]] student protest movement.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Andone |first=Dakin |date=March 21, 2018 |title=What you should know about the March for Our Lives |url=https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/21/us/march-for-our-lives-explainer/index.html |access-date=March 8, 2021 |website=CNN |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=March 24, 2018 |title=March for Our Lives Highlights: Students Protesting Guns Say 'Enough Is Enough' |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/24/us/march-for-our-lives.html |access-date=March 8, 2021 |work=The New York Times |language=en-US |issn=0362-4331}}&lt;/ref&gt; During Trump's presidency, he espoused an &quot;[[America First (policy)|America First]]&quot; ideology, placing restrictions on asylum seekers, [[Trump wall|expanding the wall]] on the U.S.-Mexico border, and [[Trump travel ban|banning immigration from seven Muslim-majority countries]]. Many of his executive orders and other actions were challenged in court.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Diamond |first=Jeremy |date=January 28, 2017 |title=Trump's latest executive order: Banning people from 7 countries and more |url=https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/27/politics/donald-trump-refugees-executive-order/index.html |access-date=March 8, 2021 |website=CNN Politics |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |title=These are the Trump administration policies courts have ruled against |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/politics/trump-overruled |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210226022838/https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/politics/trump-overruled/ |archive-date=February 26, 2021 |access-date=March 8, 2021 |newspaper=The Washington Post |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2019-01-21 |title=Trump wall: How much has he actually built? |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46824649 |website=BBC News |access-date=2024-06-02 |language=en-GB}}&lt;/ref&gt; He confirmed [[Donald Trump Supreme Court candidates|three new Supreme Court justices]] (cementing a conservative majority),&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-01-03 |title=Trump built the Supreme Court's conservative majority, but it doesn't always rule in his favor |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-built-supreme-court-conservative-majority-loses-rcna131956 |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=NBC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; started a [[China–United States trade war|trade war with China]],&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=January 16, 2020 |title=A quick guide to the US-China trade war |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45899310 |access-date=March 8, 2021 |work=BBC News |language=en-GB}}&lt;/ref&gt; signed the [[Tax Cuts and Jobs Act]], and removed the U.S. from the Paris Agreement.&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot; /&gt; In 2018, the administration [[Trump administration family separation policy|separated families]] which were illegally immigrating to the country. After public outcry, Trump rescinded the policy.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=Gonzales |first1=Richard |date=June 20, 2018 |title=Trump's Executive Order On Family Separation: What It Does And Doesn't Do |url=https://www.npr.org/2018/06/20/622095441/trump-executive-order-on-family-separation-what-it-does-and-doesnt-do |access-date=March 8, 2021 |newspaper=NPR |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2018-06-29 |title=Trump admin ran 'pilot program' for zero tolerance at border in 2017 |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/trump-admin-ran-pilot-program-separating-migrant-families-2017-n887616 |access-date=2024-07-03 |website=NBC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2019, [[Death of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi|a U.S. attack]] caused the suicide of the leader of ISIS, [[Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=March 9, 2023 |title=U.S.-led Iraq war ushered in years of chaos and conflict |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-led-iraq-war-ushered-years-chaos-conflict-2023-03-09/ |access-date=May 13, 2024 |website=Reuters}}&lt;/ref&gt; A whistleblower complaint also alleged that Trump had [[Trump–Ukraine scandal|withheld foreign aid from Ukraine]] under the demand that they investigate the business dealings of [[Hunter Biden]]; Hunter's father, Democrat [[Joe Biden]], would be Trump's opponent in the [[2020 United States presidential election|2020 presidential election]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Breuninger |first=Kevin |date=September 25, 2019 |title=Trump asked Ukraine president in phone call 'if you can look into' Biden and his son |url=https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/25/trump-asked-ukraine-president-if-you-can-look-into-biden-and-his-son-in-phone-call.html |access-date=March 8, 2021 |website=CNBC |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;:37&quot; /&gt; Trump was [[First impeachment of Donald Trump|impeached]] for abuse of power and obstruction of congress, but [[First impeachment trial of Donald Trump|he was acquitted]] in 2020.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=February 5, 2020 |title=Trump impeachment: The short, medium and long story |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49800181 |access-date=March 8, 2021 |work=BBC News |language=en-GB}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Timeline of weekly confirmed COVID-19 deaths in the United States.svg|left|thumb|Weekly confirmed deaths from [[COVID-19 pandemic in the United States|COVID-19 in the United States]] from January 2020 to August 2023]] The [[COVID-19]] disease started spreading in China in 2019.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-04-22 |title=Toxic: How the search for the origins of COVID-19 turned politically poisonous |url=https://apnews.com/article/china-covid-virus-origins-pandemic-lab-leak-bed5ab50dca8e318ab00f60b5911da0c |access-date=2024-06-02 |website=AP News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; In March 2020, the [[WHO]] declared the spread to be a [[COVID-19 pandemic|pandemic]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine |title=The WHO Just Declared Coronavirus COVID-19 a Pandemic |url=https://time.com/5791661/who-coronavirus-pandemic-declaration/ |access-date=2022-03-04 |magazine=Time |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; American state and local governments imposed [[stay-at-home order]]s to slow the virus' spread, [[Flattening the curve|reducing patient overload]] in hospitals. By April, the U.S. had the most cases of any country, at 100,000.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=McNeil|first=Donald G. Jr. |title=The U.S. Now Leads the World in Confirmed Coronavirus Cases |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/health/usa-coronavirus-cases.html |date=March 26, 2020 |work=The New York Times |access-date=March 26, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Chan |first1=Christine |last2=Shumaker |first2=Lisa |last3=Maler |first3=Sandra |title=Confirmed coronavirus cases in U.S. reach 100,000: Reuters tally |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-cases/confirmed-coronavirus-cases-in-u-s-reach-100000-reuters-tally-idUSKBN21E3DA |date=March 28, 2020 |work=[[Reuters]] |access-date=March 28, 2020 |name-list-style=vanc}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Roberts |first=Siobhan |date=2020-03-27 |title=Flattening the Coronavirus Curve |url=https://www.nytimes.com/article/flatten-curve-coronavirus.html |access-date=2024-07-03 |work=The New York Times |language=en-US |issn=0362-4331}}&lt;/ref&gt; At Trump's direction, the federal government released preventative guidelines for Americans.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=https://www.mcknights.com/news/trump-wants-masks-on-all-nursing-home-workers-temperature-checks-for-all-and-separate-covid-units/ |title=Trump wants masks on all nursing home workers, temperature checks for all, and separate COVID-19 units |work=McKnight's Long-term Care News |date=April 3, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; On April 11, the U.S. death toll became the highest in the world at 20,000,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|date=April 11, 2020|title=U.S. coronavirus deaths top 20,000, highest in world exceeding Italy: Reuters tally|work=[[Reuters]]|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-casualties-idUSKCN21T0NA |access-date=May 1, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; and by May 2022, one million had died.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Iorfida |first=Chris |date=May 12, 2022 |title=U.S. surpasses 1 million COVID-19 deaths: A look at the numbers |work=CBC News |url=https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/us-million-covid-deaths-1.6150574 |access-date=2022-06-03}}&lt;/ref&gt; U.S. life expectancy fell by around a year and a half in 2020 and 2021, and unemployment rates were the highest since the Great Depression.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=February 18, 2021 |first=Stephanie |last=Soucheray |title=Amid COVID-19, US life expectancy sees biggest drop since WWII |url=https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/02/amid-covid-19-us-life-expectancy-sees-biggest-drop-wwii |access-date=March 8, 2021 |website=CIDRAP |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=McPhillips |first=Deidre |date=April 7, 2022 |title=US life expectancy continues historic decline with another drop in 2021, study finds |url=https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/07/health/us-life-expectancy-drops-again-2021/index.html |access-date=2022-06-03 |website=CNN}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[COVID-19 vaccination in the United States|biggest mass vaccination campaign in U.S. history]] started in December 2020, when the [[Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine]] was first distributed to U.S. citizens.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Lopez |first=German |date=2020-12-14 |title=The Covid-19 vaccine's 2 big challenges |url=https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22161047/covid-19-coronavirus-vaccine-manufacturing-distribution-persuasion |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=Vox |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; By October 2022, 613 million vaccine shots had been administered to Americans.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |title=Covid Vaccine Tracker: Global Distribution |url=https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/?leadSource=reddit_wall |access-date=2024-05-13 |newspaper=Bloomberg| date=October 6, 2022 }}&lt;/ref&gt; The May 2020 [[murder of George Floyd]] caused mass [[George Floyd protests|protests and riots]] in many cities over police brutality, with many states calling in the National Guard.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Mapping US cities where George Floyd protests have erupted |url=https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2020/06/mapping-cities-george-floyd-protests-erupted-200601081654119.html |access-date=June 26, 2020 |website=www.aljazeera.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; Many organizations attempted to rid themselves of institutionalized racism.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Gottbrath |first=Laurin-Whitney |title=In 2020, the Black Lives Matter movement shook the world |url=https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2020/12/31/2020-the-year-black-lives-matter-shook-the-world |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=Al Jazeera |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; 2020 was also marked by a rise in domestic terrorist threats and widespread [[conspiracy theories]] around [[Postal voting in the 2020 United States elections|mail-in voting]] and COVID-19.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Brewster |first=Jack |title=Trump Renews Ballot 'Dump' Conspiracy Theory Claim—Here's Why Its Bogus |url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbrewster/2020/11/30/trump-renews-ballot-dump-conspiracy-theory-claim-heres-why-its-bogus |access-date=March 8, 2021 |website=Forbes |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=May 8, 2020 |title=Coronavirus: 'Plandemic' virus conspiracy video spreads across social media |language=en-GB |work=BBC News |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52588682 |access-date=March 8, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Piper |first=Jessica |date=September 4, 2023 |title=Anti-vaxxers are now a modern political force |url=https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/24/anti-vaxxers-political-power-00116527 |access-date=May 12, 2024 |website=Politico}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[QAnon]] conspiracy theory gained publicity due to greater Internet usage during the pandemic.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=August 25, 2020 |title=QAnon explained: the antisemitic conspiracy theory gaining traction around the world |url=http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/25/qanon-conspiracy-theory-explained-trump-what-is |access-date=March 8, 2021 |website=The Guardian |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2020-08-14 |title=How QAnon rode the pandemic to new heights — and fueled the viral anti-mask phenomenon |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/how-qanon-rode-pandemic-new-heights-fueled-viral-anti-mask-n1236695 |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=NBC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Multiple major cities were hit by rioting and fighting between far-left [[Antifa (United States)|anti-fascist groups]] and far-right groups like the [[Proud Boys]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Shepherd |first=Katie |title=Portland police stand by as Proud Boys and far-right militias flash guns and brawl with antifa counterprotesters |language=en-US |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]] |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/22/portland-police-far-right-protest |access-date=March 8, 2021 |issn=0190-8286}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Minneapolis mayor calls in National Guard after unrest downtown |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minneapolis-mayor-calls-national-guard-after-unrest-downtown-n1238366 |access-date=March 8, 2021 |website=NBC News |date=August 27, 2020 |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;[[File:2021 storming of the United States Capitol DSC09254-2 (50820534063) (retouched).jpg|thumb|Supporters of then-President Trump attempting to stop the counting of [[electoral votes]] on [[January 6, 2021]]]]Joe Biden defeated Trump in the 2020 election, the first defeat of an incumbent president since 1992.&lt;ref name=&quot;:37&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |last=Gilliland |first=Donald |date=November 7, 2020 |title=Biden's defeat of Trump is the most important win since FDR |url=https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/524942-bidens-defeat-of-trump-is-the-most-important-win-since-fdr |access-date=December 16, 2020 |website=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]] |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; The election, with an exceptional amount of mail-in voting and early voting due to the pandemic, had historically high voter turnout.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Miao |first=Hannah |date=November 4, 2020 |title=2020 election sees record high turnout with at least 159.8 million votes projected |url=https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/04/2020-election-sees-record-high-turnout-with-at-least-159point8-million-votes-projected.html |access-date=December 16, 2020 |website=CNBC |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump then repeatedly made [[Election denial movement in the United States|false claims]] of massive voter fraud and election rigging,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |title=Trump Fundraising Surges After Election As He Makes False Claims It Was Rigged |url=https://www.npr.org/sections/biden-transition-updates/2020/12/04/942930782/trump-fundraising-surges-after-election-as-he-makes-false-claims-it-was-rigged |access-date=December 16, 2020 |newspaper=NPR |date=December 4, 2020 |language=en|last1=Keith |first1=Tamara}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Trump's false fraud claims are laying groundwork for new voting restrictions, experts warn |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/trump-s-false-fraud-claims-are-laying-groundwork-new-voting-n1250059 |access-date=December 16, 2020 |website=NBC News |date=December 6, 2020 |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=December 3, 2020 |title=AP Fact Check: Trump's claims of vote rigging are all wrong |url=https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-ap-fact-check-joe-biden-donald-trump-technology-49a24edd6d10888dbad61689c24b05a5 |access-date=December 16, 2020 |website=The Associated Press}}&lt;/ref&gt; leading to the [[January 6 United States Capitol attack]] by supporters of Trump and right-wing militias.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=January 6, 2021 |title=Pro-Trump mob storm Capitol as lawmakers meet to certify Biden's win – video |language=en-GB |work=The Guardian |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2021/jan/06/trump-supporters-storm-capitol-protest-senate-video |access-date=January 8, 2021 |issn=0261-3077}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |date=2021 |title=Jan. 6 insurrection |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/interactive/2021/jan-6-insurrection-capitol/ |access-date=July 6, 2024 |newspaper=The Washington Post}}&lt;/ref&gt; The attack was widely described as a [[coup d'état]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite court|litigants=Eastman v Thompson, et al.|opinion=8:22-cv-00099-DOC-DFM Document 260|pinpoint=44|court=S.D. Cal.|date=May 28, 2022|quote=Dr. Eastman and President Trump launched a campaign to overturn a democratic election, an action unprecedented in American history. Their campaign was not confined to the ivory tower{{snd}}it was a coup in search of a legal theory. The plan spurred violent attacks on the seat of our nation's government, led to the deaths of several law enforcement officers, and deepened public distrust in our political process... If Dr. Eastman and President Trump's plan had worked, it would have permanently ended the peaceful transition of power, undermining American democracy and the Constitution. If the country does not commit to investigating and pursuing accountability for those responsible, the Court fears January 6 will repeat itself.|url=https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cacd.841840/gov.uscourts.cacd.841840.260.0.pdf |access-date=December 16, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite report |url=https://www.brookings.edu/research/trump-on-trial/ |title=Trump on Trial: A Guide to the January 6 Hearings and the Question of Criminality |last1=Eisen |first1=Norman |last2=Ayer |first2=Donald |date=2022-06-06 |publisher=Brookings Institution |language=en-US |quote=[Trump] tried to delegitimize the election results by disseminating a series of far fetched and evidence-free claims of fraud. Meanwhile, with a ring of close confidants, Trump conceived and implemented unprecedented schemes to{{snd}}in his own words{{snd}}&quot;overturn&quot; the election outcome. Among the results of this &quot;Big Lie&quot; campaign were the terrible events of January 6, 2021{{snd}}an inflection point in what we now understand was nothing less than an attempted coup. |last3=Perry |first3=Joshua |last4=Bookbinder |first4=Noah |last5=Perry |first5=E. Danya |access-date=December 16, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=&quot;Multiple Sources&quot;&gt;Multiple media sources: * {{Cite web |last=Graham |first=David A. |date=January 6, 2021 |title=This Is a Coup |url=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/attempted-coup/617570/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210106224049/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/attempted-coup/617570/ |archive-date=January 6, 2021 |access-date=December 16, 2023 |website=[[The Atlantic]]}} * {{Cite web |last=Musgrave |first=Paul |date=January 6, 2021 |title=This Is a Coup. Why Were Experts So Reluctant to See It Coming? |url=https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/01/06/coup-america-capitol-electoral-college-2020-election/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210106235812/https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/01/06/coup-america-capitol-electoral-college-2020-election/ |archive-date=January 6, 2021 |access-date=December 16, 2023 |website=Foreign Policy}} * {{Cite web |last=Solnit |first=Rebecca |date=January 6, 2021 |title=Call it what it was: a coup attempt |url=https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/06/trump-mob-storm-capitol-washington-coup-attempt |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210107000436/https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/06/trump-mob-storm-capitol-washington-coup-attempt |archive-date=January 7, 2021 |access-date=December 16, 2023 |website=The Guardian}} * {{Cite web |last=Coleman |first=Justine |date=January 6, 2021 |title=GOP lawmaker on violence at Capitol: 'This is a coup attempt' |url=https://thehill.com/homenews/house/532944-gop-lawmaker-on-violence-at-capitol-this-is-a-coup-attempt |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210106212600/https://thehill.com/homenews/house/532944-gop-lawmaker-on-violence-at-capitol-this-is-a-coup-attempt |archive-date=January 6, 2021 |access-date=December 16, 2023 |website=[[The Hill (newspaper)|The Hill]]}} * {{Cite web |last=Jacobson |first=Louis |date=January 6, 2021 |title=Is this a coup? Here's some history and context to help you decide |url=https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/jan/06/coup-heres-some-history-and-context-help-you-decid/ |access-date=January 7, 2021 |website=[[PolitiFact]] |quote=A good case can be made that the storming of the Capitol qualifies as a coup. It's especially so because the rioters entered at precisely the moment when the incumbent's loss was to be formally sealed, and they succeeded in stopping the count.}} * {{Cite news |last1=Barry |first1=Dan |last2=Frenkel |first2=Sheera |date=January 7, 2021 |title='Be There. Will Be Wild!': Trump All but Circled the Date |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/politics/capitol-mob-trump-supporters.html |url-access=registration |url-status=live |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20211228/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/politics/capitol-mob-trump-supporters.html |archive-date=2021-12-28 |access-date=December 16, 2023 |work=[[The New York Times]]}} * {{cite encyclopedia |title=January 6 U.S. Capitol attack |encyclopedia=[[Encyclopædia Britannica]] |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/January-6-U-S-Capitol-attack |access-date=2021-09-22 |last=Duignan |first=Brian |date=2021-08-04 |language=en |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230117232629/https://www.britannica.com/event/January-6-U-S-Capitol-attack |archive-date=2023-01-17 |quote=Because its object was to prevent a legitimate president-elect from assuming office, the attack was widely regarded as an insurrection or attempted coup d'état. |url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; It led to Trump's [[Second impeachment of Donald Trump|impeachment]] for incitement of insurrection, making him the only U.S. president to be impeached twice.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last1=DeBonis |first1=Mike |last2=Kim |first2=Seung Min |title=House impeaches Trump with 10 Republicans joining, but Senate plans unclear |language=en-US |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]] |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-impeachment-trump/2021/01/13/05fe731c-55c5-11eb-a931-5b162d0d033d_story.html |access-date=January 14, 2021 |issn=0190-8286}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Fink |first=Jenni |date=January 13, 2021 |title=Donald Trump becomes first president to get impeached twice, losing stranglehold on GOP |url=https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-becomes-first-president-get-impeached-twice-losing-stranglehold-gop-1561211 |access-date=January 14, 2021 |website=Newsweek |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Gambino |first=Lauren |date=January 13, 2021 |title=Donald Trump impeached a second time over mob attack on US Capitol |language=en-GB |work=The Guardian |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/13/trump-impeached-again-president-history-capitol-attack |access-date=January 14, 2021 |issn=0261-3077}}&lt;/ref&gt; The Senate later [[Second impeachment trial of Donald Trump|acquitted]] Trump, despite some fellow Republicans voting against him.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last1=Herb |first1=Jeremy |last2=Raju |first2=Manu |last3=Barrett |first3=Ted |last4=Fox |first4=Lauren |title=Trump acquitted for second time following historic Senate impeachment trial |url=https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/13/politics/senate-impeachment-trial-day-5-vote/index.html |access-date=February 17, 2021 |website=CNN|date=February 13, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=U.S. Senate: U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 117th Congress – 1st Session |url=https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=117&amp;session=1&amp;vote=00059 |access-date=February 17, 2021 |website=www.senate.gov}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Kamala Harris]] was [[Inauguration of Joe Biden|inaugurated]] as the first Black, Asian, and female vice president.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |title=Kamala Harris Makes History as First Woman and Woman of Color as Vice President |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/07/us/politics/kamala-harris.html |website=The New York Times |date=November 7, 2020 |access-date=July 15, 2022|last1=Lerer |first1=Lisa |last2=Ember |first2=Sydney}}&lt;/ref&gt; === Biden administration === {{Main article|Presidency of Joe Biden}} In 2021, Biden finished the [[2020–2021 U.S. troop withdrawal from Afghanistan|withdrawal of American troops]] from Afghanistan which started under Trump. After an [[2021 Kabul airlift|evacuation of over 120,000 American citizens]], Afghanistan [[Fall of Afghanistan|fell to the Taliban]] in August.&lt;ref name=&quot;:38&quot;&gt;{{Cite web |date=2022-08-17 |title=EXPLAINER: Dueling views remain a year after Afghan pullout |url=https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-afghanistan-al-qaida-ayman-zawahri-f00d745cb7cf00e3ada60017401f6784 |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=AP News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Taliban marks two years since return to power in Afghanistan |url=https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/15/taliban-marks-two-years-since-return-to-power-in-afghanistan |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=Al Jazeera |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Knutson |first=Jacob |date=August 20, 2021 |title=Trump officials back away from 2020 Taliban peace deal after withdrawal chaos |url=https://www.axios.com/2021/08/20/trump-taliban-agreement-doha-biden |access-date=May 12, 2024 |website=Axios}}&lt;/ref&gt; Biden signed into law the [[American Rescue Plan Act of 2021]]; a $1.9 trillion stimulus bill in response to continued economic pressure from COVID-19.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Segers |first=Grace |date=March 12, 2021 |title=Biden signs $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan into law |agency=CBS News |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-signs-covid-relief-bill-american-rescue-plan-into-law/ |access-date=July 5, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; He also proposed a significant expansion of the social safety net through the [[Build Back Better Act]], but those efforts, along with [[Freedom to Vote Act|voting rights legislation]], failed in Congress.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2022-04-17 |title=Who lost Biden's agenda? Democrats offer competing theories for failure of 'Build Back Better' |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/lost-bidens-agenda-democrats-offer-competing-theories-failure-build-ba-rcna24552 |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=NBC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; He then signed bills regarding [[Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act|infrastructure]],&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Shalal |first1=Andrea |last2=Holland |first2=Steve |date=November 16, 2021 |title=Biden signs $1 trillion infrastructure bill into law |work=Reuters |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-needing-boost-sign-1-trillion-infrastructure-bill-2021-11-15/ |access-date=November 16, 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Bipartisan Safer Communities Act|gun reform]],&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Biden signs bipartisan gun safety package into law |url=https://abcnews.go.com/US/biden-signs-bipartisan-gun-safety-package-law/story?id=85692952 |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=ABC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Inflation Reduction Act|inflation reduction]],&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Judd |first=Maegan Vazquez, Donald |date=2022-08-16 |title=Biden signs Inflation Reduction Act into law - CNN Politics |url=https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/16/politics/biden-inflation-reduction-act-signing/index.html |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=CNN |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; and [[Honoring our PACT Act of 2022|healthcare for veterans]],&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2023-08-08 |title=Honoring our 'PACT' to veterans |url=https://www.yahoo.com/news/honoring-pact-veterans-090000193.html |access-date=2024-06-02 |website=Yahoo News |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; among other issues.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=February 2, 2024 |title=30 Things Joe Biden Did as President You Might Have Missed |url=https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/02/joe-biden-30-policy-things-you-might-have-missed-00139046 |access-date=June 1, 2024 |website=Politico}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant|Delta variant]] of [[SARS-CoV-2]], the virus that causes COVID-19, started spreading in 2021. New preventative restrictions were put in place in reaction to this.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2021-09-04 |title=Schools grapple with thousands in isolation or quarantine as delta variant rages |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/schools-grapple-thousands-isolation-or-quarantine-delta-variant-rages-n1277882 |access-date=2024-07-06 |website=NBC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Anthes |first=Emily |date=2021-06-22 |title=The Delta Variant: What Scientists Know |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/22/health/delta-variant-covid.html |access-date=2024-07-06 |work=The New York Times |language=en-US |issn=0362-4331}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Tebor |first=Celina |date=2021-07-02 |title=Delta variant causes new lockdowns and coronavirus restrictions across the globe |url=https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-07-01/delta-variant-worldwide-coronavirus-restrictions |access-date=2024-07-06 |website=Los Angeles Times |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:-i---i- (52380995447).jpg|thumb|Protestors outside the Supreme Court shortly after the announcement of the ''[[Dobbs v. Jackson]]'' decision in 2022|left]] In the early 2020s, Republican-led states began [[2020s anti-LGBT movement in the United States|sweeping rollbacks of LGBT rights]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Over 120 Bills Restricting LGBTQ Rights Introduced Nationwide in 2023 So Far |url=https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/over-120-bills-restricting-lgbtq-rights-introduced-nationwide-2023-so-far |access-date=7 March 2023 |website=ACLU}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2022, the Supreme Court ruled in ''[[Dobbs v. Jackson]]'' that having an abortion is not a protected Constitutional right, overturning ''Roe v. Wade'' and ''[[Planned Parenthood v. Casey]]'' and sparking [[2022 abortion rights protests in the United States|nationwide protests]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Liptak |first=Adam |author-link=Adam Liptak |date=June 24, 2022 |title=In 6-to-3 Ruling, Supreme Court Ends Nearly 50 Years of Abortion Rights |work=[[The New York Times]] |publication-place=Washington, D.C. |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/24/us/roe-wade-overturned-supreme-court.html |url-status=live |url-access=limited |access-date=June 25, 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220625032744/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/24/us/roe-wade-overturned-supreme-court.html |archive-date=June 25, 2022 |issn=1553-8095 |oclc=1645522}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Almasy |first=Steve |date=June 24, 2022 |title=Protests underway in cities from Washington to Los Angeles in wake of Supreme Court abortion decision |url=https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/24/us/supreme-court-roe-v-wade-protests/index.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220625065025/https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/24/us/supreme-court-roe-v-wade-protests/index.html |archive-date=June 25, 2022 |access-date=2022-06-25 |website=[[CNN]]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Biden also appointed [[Ketanji Brown Jackson]] to become the first Black woman to serve on the court.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last1=Tapper |first1=Jake |last2=de Vogue |first2=Ariane |last3=Zeleny |first3=Jeff |last4=Klein |first4=Betsy |last5=Vazquez |first5=Maegan |date=February 25, 2022 |title=Biden nominates Ketanji Brown Jackson to be first Black woman to sit on Supreme Court |url=https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/25/politics/supreme-court-ketanji-brown-jackson/index.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220228012241/https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/25/politics/supreme-court-ketanji-brown-jackson/index.html |archive-date=February 28, 2022 |access-date=February 28, 2022 |website=CNN}}&lt;/ref&gt; In 2023, Trump began appearing in court as a defendant in [[Indictments against Donald Trump|multiple notable criminal trials]], including alleged federal crimes,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Graham |first=David A. |date=2024-05-08 |title=The Cases Against Trump: A Guide |url=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/donald-trump-legal-cases-charges/675531/ |access-date=2024-05-13 |website=The Atlantic |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; while he was campaigning for the [[2024 United States presidential election|2024 presidential election]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Thomson-DeVeaux |first=Amelia |date=2023-08-02 |title=All Of Trump's Indictments Could Seriously Bog Down His Campaign |url=https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-indictments-trial-campaign-effects/ |access-date=2024-06-08 |website=FiveThirtyEight |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt; Meanwhile, the U.S. began supporting Israel in the [[Israel–Hamas war|Israel-Hamas war]]&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=News |first=A. B. C. |title=Americans' views divided on US policy toward Israel-Hamas war: POLL |url=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/americans-views-divided-us-policy-israel-hamas-war/story?id=109879453 |access-date=2024-07-25 |website=ABC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; and [[Operation Prosperity Guardian|protecting shipping]] in the Red Sea from attacks by the Yemeni [[Houthis]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=December 22, 2023 |title=What is U.S.-led Red Sea coalition and which countries are backing it? |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/us-red-sea-taskforce-gets-limited-backing-some-allies-2023-12-20/ |archive-url=https://archive.today/20231225072733/https://www.reuters.com/world/us-red-sea-taskforce-gets-limited-backing-some-allies-2023-12-20/ |url-status=dead |archive-date=2023-12-25 |access-date=May 13, 2024 |website=Reuters}}&lt;/ref&gt; In June 2024, Trump became the first president convicted of a crime, when he was found guilty of [[Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York|34 felony counts]] for falsifying business documents related to his [[Stormy Daniels–Donald Trump scandal|paying off of Stormy Daniels]] in 2016.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Jury finds former President Trump guilty of all 34 felony counts of falsifying business records |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/jury-finds-former-president-trump-guilty-of-all-34-felony-counts-of-falsifying-business-records-211974213765 |access-date=2024-06-02 |website=NBC News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; In July, the Supreme Court ruled in ''[[Trump v. United States (2024)|Trump v. United States]]'' that presidents are somewhat [[Presidential immunity in the United States|immune from criminal prosecution]] after their presidency over &quot;official acts&quot; taken during their presidency, helping Trump before his planned [[Federal prosecution of Donald Trump (election obstruction case)|election subversion trial]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-07-01 |title=Justices rule Trump has some immunity from prosecution |url=https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/07/justices-rule-trump-has-some-immunity-from-prosecution/ |access-date=2024-07-03 |website=SCOTUSblog |language=en-US}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Wolf |first=Zachary B. |date=2024-07-01 |title=Analysis: The Supreme Court just gave presidents a superpower. Here's its explanation - CNN Politics |url=https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/01/politics/presidents-immunity-supreme-court-what-matters/index.html |access-date=2024-07-03 |website=CNN |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |title=The meaning of Donald Trump's Supreme Court victory |url=https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/07/01/donald-trump-wins-a-big-victory-at-the-supreme-court |access-date=2024-07-03 |newspaper=The Economist |issn=0013-0613}}&lt;/ref&gt; Later in July, Biden [[Withdrawal of Joe Biden from the 2024 United States presidential election|dropped out]] of the 2024 race, endorsing Kamala Harris.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news |last=Stein |first=Chris |date=2024-07-21 |title=Joe Biden endorses Kamala Harris to replace him as Democrats begin to throw support behind vice-president – live |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2024/jul/21/biden-drops-out-presidential-election |access-date=2024-07-21 |work=the Guardian |language=en-GB |issn=0261-3077}}&lt;/ref&gt; During the election season, there were [[List of United States presidential assassination attempts and plots#Donald Trump|two assassination attempts]] on Trump.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=2024-09-15 |title=Trump was the subject of an apparent assassination attempt at his Florida golf club, the FBI says |url=https://apnews.com/article/trump-shooting-gunshots-florida-f62f8378d3a8ce7b2e99d6a8fb40aba9 |access-date=2024-09-27 |website=AP News |language=en}}&lt;/ref&gt; Trump and vice presidential nominee [[JD Vance]] won the 2024 presidential election, making Trump the first president to be elected to a non-consecutive second term since Grover Cleveland in 1892, and the oldest person ever elected president.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=Cochran |first=Lexi Lonas |date=November 8, 2024 |title=Trump joins Grover Cleveland with rarest presidential feat |url=https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4979460-trump-election-grover-cleveland-white-house/ |url-status=live |access-date=November 21, 2024 |website=The Hill}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=November 8, 2024 |title=Trump is the oldest person to be elected president: U.S. presidents, by age |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/08/oldest-us-presidents-trump/ |url-status=live |access-date=November 21, 2024 |website=The Washington Post}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==See also== {{Portal|United States}} {{Columns-list|colwidth=30em| * [[American urban history]] * [[Bibliography of American history]] * [[Colonial history of the United States]] * [[Economic history of the United States]] * [[History of agriculture in the United States]] * [[History of education in the United States]] * [[History of United States foreign policy]] * [[History of immigration to the United States]] * [[History of North America]] * [[History of religion in the United States]] * [[History of the Southern United States]] * [[History of the United States government]] * [[History of women in the United States]] * [[List of historians by area of study#History of the United States|List of historians by area of study]] * [[List of history journals#United States and Canada|List of history journals]] * [[List of presidents of the United States]] * [[Military history of the United States]] * [[Outline of the history of the United States]] * [[Politics of the United States]] * [[Racism in the United States]] * [[Territorial evolution of the United States]] * [[Territories of the United States]] * [[United States factor]] * [[An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States]] }} ==Notes== {{Notelist}} ==References== {{Reflist}} ==Sources== * {{Cite web |title=Lesson Plan on &quot;What Made George Washington a Good Military Leader?&quot; |url=http://edsitement.neh.gov/curriculum-unit/what-made-george-washington-good-military-leader |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110611013210/http://edsitement.neh.gov/curriculum-unit/what-made-george-washington-good-military-leader |archive-date=June 11, 2011 |ref={{SfnRef|Lesson Plan on Washington}}}} * {{Cite web |title=Outline of American History – Chapter 1: Early America |url=https://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/history/ch1.htm#europeans |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161120021240/http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/history/ch1.htm#europeans |archive-date=November 20, 2016 |access-date=September 27, 2019 |website=usa.usembassy.de |ref={{SfnRef|Outline of American History}}}} * {{Cite book |last1=Beard |first1=Charles A. |title=The Rise of American civilization |url=https://archive.org/details/riseofamericanci04bear |last2=Beard |first2=Mary Ritter |last3=Jones |first3=Wilfred |date=1927 |publisher=[[Macmillan Publishers|Macmillan]] |ref={{SfnRef|Beard}} |author-link=Charles A. 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Vann Woodward}} * {{Cite book |last=Wilentz |first=Sean |url=https://archive.org/details/ageofreaganhisto00wile |title=The Age of Reagan: A History, 1974–2008 |date=2008 |publisher=Harper |isbn=9780060744809 |ref={{SfnRef|Wilentz}} |author-link=Sean Wilentz |url-access=registration}} * {{Cite book |last=Wood |first=Gordon S. |title=Empire of Liberty: A History of the Early Republic, 1789–1815 |date=2009 |publisher=[[Oxford University Press]] |isbn=9780195039146 |series=Oxford History of the United States |ref={{SfnRef|Wood, Empire of Liberty}} |author-link=Gordon S. Wood}} * {{Cite book |last=Zinn |first=Howard |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=9-FtlblxbLgC |title=A People's History of the United States |date=2003 |publisher=HarperPerennial Modern Classics |isbn=9780060528423 |ref={{SfnRef|Zinn}} |author-link=Howard Zinn}} * {{Cite book |url=https://archive.org/details/handbookofameric00zoph |title=Handbook of American Women's History |date=2000 |publisher=Garland |isbn=9780824087449 |editor-last=Zophy |editor-first=Angela Howard |edition=2nd |ref={{SfnRef|Zophy}}}} ==External links== {{Sister project links}} * {{Cite web |title=''Encyclopedia of American Studies'' |url=http://eas-ref.press.jhu.edu}} * {{Cite web |title=US History map animation |url=http://www.houstonculture.org/kids/usmap.html |publisher=Houston Institute for Culture |access-date=July 24, 2011 |archive-date=January 17, 2013 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130117042507/http://www.houstonculture.org/kids/usmap.html |url-status=dead}} * {{Cite web |title=Edsitement, History &amp; Social Studies |url=http://edsitement.neh.gov/subject/history-social-studies |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130826003047/http://edsitement.neh.gov/subject/history-social-studies |archive-date=August 26, 2013 |publisher=[[National Endowment for the Humanities]]}} * {{Cite web |title=The Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History |url=http://www.gilderlehrman.org}} * {{Cite web |title=BackStory |url=http://backstoryradio.org}}, American history public radio show hosted by [[Edward L. Ayers|Ed Ayers]], Brian Balogh, and Peter Onuf {{U.S. political divisions histories}} {{US history}} {{United States topics}} {{History of North America by country}} {{World topic|History of}} {{authority control}} [[Category:History of the United States| ]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theodore_Roosevelt&diff=1259210948</id> <title>Theodore Roosevelt</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theodore_Roosevelt&diff=1259210948"/> <updated>2024-11-23T23:45:46Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: see talk <hr /> <div>{{Short description|President of the United States from 1901 to 1909}} {{Pp-vandalism|small=yes}} {{About other people|the president of the United States}} {{Use American English|date=November 2024}} {{Use mdy dates|date=November 2024}} {{Infobox officeholder | image = {{Easy CSS image crop |image = Theodore Roosevelt by the Pach Bros.jpg |desired_width = 220 |location = center |crop_left_perc = 9.5 |crop_right_perc = 6.5 |crop_top_perc = 7.5 }} | caption = Roosevelt in 1904 | order = 26th | office = President of the United States | vicepresident = {{Plain list| * ''None'' (1901–1905){{Efn|Roosevelt was vice president under McKinley and became president after McKinley's assassination in 1901. This was prior to the adoption of the [[Twenty-fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Twenty-fifth Amendment]] in 1967, and a vacancy in the office of vice president was not filled until the next election and inauguration.}} * {{longitem|[[Charles W. Fairbanks]] (1905–1909)}} }} | term_start = September 14, 1901 | term_end = March 4, 1909 | predecessor = [[William McKinley]] | successor = [[William Howard Taft]] | order2 = 25th | office2 = Vice President of the United States | president2 = William McKinley | term_start2 = March 4, 1901 | term_end2 = September 14, 1901 | predecessor2 = [[Garret Hobart]] | successor2 = Charles W. Fairbanks | order3 = 33rd | office3 = Governor of New York | lieutenant3 = [[Timothy L. Woodruff]] | term_start3 = January 1, 1899 | term_end3 = December 31, 1900 | predecessor3 = [[Frank S. Black]] | successor3 = [[Benjamin Barker Odell Jr.]] | order4 = 5th | office4 = Assistant Secretary of the Navy | president4 = William McKinley | term_start4 = April 19, 1897 | term_end4 = May 10, 1898 | predecessor4 = [[William McAdoo (New Jersey politician)|William McAdoo]] | successor4 = [[Charles Herbert Allen]] | office5 = [[President of the New York City Board of Police Commissioners]] | appointer5 = [[William Lafayette Strong]] | term_start5 = May 6, 1895 | term_end5 = April 19, 1897 | predecessor5 = James J. Martin | successor5 = [[Frank Moss (lawyer)|Frank Moss]] | state_assembly6 = New York | district6 = [[New York's 21st State Assembly district|21st]] | term_start6 = January 1, 1882 | term_end6 = December 31, 1884 | predecessor6 = William J. Trimble | successor6 = [[Henry A. Barnum]] | birth_date = {{birth date|1858|10|27}} | birth_name = Theodore Roosevelt{{nbsp}}Jr.&lt;!--Nbsp is needed for readers on mobile devices--&gt; | birth_place = [[Manhattan]], New York City, U.S. | death_date = {{death date and age|1919|1|6|1858|10|27}} | death_place = [[Oyster Bay, New York]], U.S. | resting_place = [[Youngs Memorial Cemetery]] | party = [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] (1880–1912, 1916–1919) | otherparty = [[Bull Moose Party|Progressive &quot;Bull Moose&quot;]] (1912–1916) | spouse = {{unbulleted list|{{marriage|[[Alice Hathaway Lee Roosevelt|Alice Lee]]|October 27, 1880|February 14, 1884|end=died}}|{{marriage|[[Edith Carow]]|December 2, 1886}}}} | children = 6 | relatives = [[Roosevelt family]] | alma_mater = {{unbulleted list|[[Harvard University]] ([[Bachelor of Arts|AB]])|[[Columbia Law School|Columbia University]]}} | occupation = {{flatlist| * Author * conservationist * explorer * historian * naturalist * [[police commissioner]] * politician * soldier }} | signature = Theodore Roosevelt Signature-2.svg | signature_alt = Cursive signature in ink | awards = [[Nobel Peace Prize]] (1906) | allegiance = [[United States]] | branch = [[New York Army National Guard]]&lt;br/&gt;[[United States Army]] | serviceyears = {{unbulleted list|1882–1886 ([[New York National Guard]])|1898}} | rank = [[Colonel (United States)|Colonel]] | mawards = [[Medal of Honor]] {{avoid wrap|([[Posthumous award|posthumous]], 2001)}} | commands = [[1st U.S. Volunteer Cavalry]] | battles = {{tree list}} * [[Spanish–American War]] ** [[Battle of Las Guasimas]] ** [[Battle of San Juan Hill]] {{tree list/end}} | module = {{Listen|pos=center|embed=yes|filename=Theodore Roosevelt &quot;The liberty of the people&quot; speech.ogg|title=Theodore Roosevelt's voice|type=speech|description=Roosevelt giving a speech during his [[1912 United States presidential election|second presidential campaign]]&lt;br /&gt;Recorded 1912}} }} '''Theodore &lt;!-- DO NOT ADD &quot;TEDDY&quot;; ROOSEVELT HIMSELF NEVER WENT BY THAT NAME --&gt; Roosevelt Jr.'''{{efn|Pronounced {{IPAc-en|ˈ|r|oʊ|z|ə|v|ɛ|l|t}} {{respell|ROH|zə|velt}}}} (October 27, 1858 – January 6, 1919), often referred to as '''Teddy''' or '''T.{{nbsp}}R.''', was the 26th [[president of the United States]], serving from 1901 to 1909. He previously was involved in [[New York (state)|New York]] politics, including serving as the state's [[List of governors of New York|33rd governor]] for two years. He was the [[Vice President of the United States|vice president]] under President [[William McKinley]] for six months in 1901, assuming the presidency after [[Assassination of William McKinley|McKinley's assassination]]. As president, Roosevelt emerged as a leader of the [[History of the Republican Party (United States)|Republican Party]] and became a driving force for [[United States antitrust law|anti-trust]] and [[Progressive Era|Progressive]] policies. A sickly child with debilitating [[asthma]], Roosevelt overcame health problems through [[The Strenuous Life|a strenuous lifestyle]]. He was [[homeschooled]] and began a lifelong naturalist avocation before attending [[Harvard College]]. His book ''[[The Naval War of 1812]]'' established his reputation as a historian and popular writer. Roosevelt became the leader of the reform faction of Republicans in the [[New York State Legislature]]. His [[Alice Hathaway Lee Roosevelt|first wife]] and [[Martha Bulloch Roosevelt|mother]] died on the same night, devastating him psychologically. He recuperated by buying and operating a cattle ranch in [[the Dakotas]]. Roosevelt served as [[assistant secretary of the Navy]] under McKinley, and in 1898 helped plan the [[Spanish–American War|successful naval war against Spain]]. He resigned to help form and lead the [[Rough Riders]], a unit that fought the [[Spanish Army]] in Cuba to great publicity. Returning a war hero, Roosevelt was [[1898 New York state election|elected New York's governor in 1898]]. The New York state party leadership disliked his ambitious agenda and convinced McKinley to choose him as his running mate in [[1900 United States presidential election|the 1900 presidential election]]; the McKinley–Roosevelt ticket won a landslide victory. Roosevelt [[First inauguration of Theodore Roosevelt|assumed the presidency]] aged 42, and is the [[List of presidents of the United States by age|youngest person to become U.S. president]]. As a leader of [[Progressivism in the United States|the progressive movement]], he championed his &quot;[[Square Deal]]&quot; domestic policies, which called for fairness for all citizens, breaking bad [[Trust (business)|trusts]], regulating railroads, and [[Pure Food and Drug Act|pure food and drugs]]. Roosevelt prioritized [[Conservation movement|conservation]] and established [[List of national parks of the United States|national parks]], [[List of national forests of the United States|forests]], and [[List of national monuments of the United States|monuments]] to preserve U.S. natural resources. In [[Foreign policy of the Theodore Roosevelt administration|foreign policy]], he [[Roosevelt Corollary|focused on Central America]], beginning construction of the [[Panama Canal]]. Roosevelt expanded the [[United States Navy|Navy]] and sent the [[Great White Fleet]] on a world tour to project naval power. His [[Treaty of Portsmouth|successful efforts]] to end the [[Russo-Japanese War]] won him the 1906 [[Nobel Peace Prize]], the first American to win a Nobel Prize. Roosevelt was [[1904 United States presidential election|elected to a full term in 1904]] and groomed [[William Howard Taft]] to succeed him in [[1908 United States presidential election|1908]]. Roosevelt grew frustrated with Taft's brand of conservatism and tried, and failed, to win the [[1912 Republican Party presidential primaries|1912 Republican presidential nomination]]. He founded the [[Bull Moose Party|new Progressive Party]] and ran in [[1912 United States presidential election|1912]]; the split allowed the [[History of the Democratic Party (United States)|Democratic]] [[Woodrow Wilson]] to win. Roosevelt led a [[Roosevelt–Rondon Scientific Expedition|four-month expedition to the Amazon basin]], where he nearly died of [[tropical disease]]. During World War I, he criticized Wilson for keeping the U.S. out; his offer to lead volunteers to France was rejected. Roosevelt's health deteriorated and he died in 1919. [[Historical rankings of presidents of the United States#1982 Murray–Blessing|Polls of historians and political scientists]] rank him as one of the greatest American presidents. ==Early life== Roosevelt was born on October 27, 1858, at [[Theodore Roosevelt Birthplace National Historic Site|28 East 20th Street]] in [[Manhattan]].{{sfn|Morris|1979|p=3}} He was the second of four children born to [[Martha Bulloch Roosevelt|Martha Stewart Bulloch]] and businessman [[Theodore Roosevelt Sr.]] He had an older sister ([[Bamie Roosevelt|Anna]]), younger brother ([[Elliott Roosevelt (socialite)|Elliott]]) and younger sister ([[Corinne Roosevelt Robinson|Corinne]]).&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Anna Roosevelt – Theodore Roosevelt Birthplace National Historic Site (U.S. National Park Service)|url=https://www.nps.gov/thrb/learn/historyculture/annaroosevelt.htm|access-date=April 4, 2021|publisher=National Park Service|archive-date=May 17, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210517084507/https://www.nps.gov/thrb/learn/historyculture/annaroosevelt.htm|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt's youth was shaped by his poor health and debilitating asthma attacks, which terrified him and his parents. Doctors had no cure.{{Sfn|McCullough|1981|pp=[https://books.google.com/books?id=nuzmvrqPvdIC&amp;pg=PA93 93–108]}} Nevertheless, he was energetic and mischievously inquisitive.{{Sfn|Putnam|1958|pp=23–27}} His lifelong interest in [[zoology]] began aged seven when he saw a dead [[Pinniped|seal]] at a market; after obtaining the seal's head, Roosevelt and cousins formed the &quot;Roosevelt Museum of Natural History&quot;. Having learned the rudiments of [[taxidermy]], he filled his makeshift museum with animals he killed or caught. Aged nine, he recorded his observation in a paper entitled &quot;The Natural History of Insects&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;environment&quot;&gt;{{Cite web | publisher = PBS | url = https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/tr/envir.html | title = TR's Legacy — The Environment | access-date = March 6, 2006 | archive-date = December 24, 2008 | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20081224215129/http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/tr/envir.html }}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:TR Age 11 Paris.jpg|thumb|left|upright=.8|Roosevelt aged 11]] Family trips, including tours of Europe in 1869 and 1870, and [[Khedivate of Egypt|Egypt]] in 1872, shaped his cosmopolitan perspective.{{Sfn|Roosevelt|1913|p=13}} Hiking with his family in the [[Alps]] in 1869, Roosevelt discovered the benefits of physical exertion to minimize his asthma and bolster his spirits.{{Sfn|Putnam|1958|pp=63–70}} Roosevelt began a heavy regimen of exercise. After being manhandled by older boys on the way to a camping trip, he found a boxing coach to train him.{{Sfn|Testi|1995|pp=1516–1517}}{{Sfn|Roosevelt|1913|pp=32–33}} ===Education=== Roosevelt was homeschooled. Biographer [[H. W. Brands]] wrote that, &quot;The most obvious drawback...was uneven coverage of...various areas of...knowledge.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|author=Brands|title=T.R.: The Last Romantic|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=J7jMw0bwRy8C&amp;pg=PA49|year=1998|page=49|publisher=Basic Books |isbn=978-0-465-06959-0|access-date=April 15, 2017|archive-date=April 15, 2017|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170415214921/https://books.google.com/books?id=J7jMw0bwRy8C&amp;pg=PA49|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; He was solid in geography and bright in history, biology, French, and German; however, he struggled in mathematics and the classical languages. In September 1876, he entered [[Harvard College]]. His father instructed him to, &quot;take care of your morals first, your health next, and finally your studies.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|first=Edward P.|last=Kohn|title=Heir to the Empire City: New York and the Making of Theodore Roosevelt|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=EcZWAAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT26|year=2013|page=26|publisher=Basic Books |isbn=978-0-465-06975-0|access-date=April 15, 2017|archive-date=April 15, 2017|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170415213639/https://books.google.com/books?id=EcZWAAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT26|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; His father's sudden death in 1878 devastated Roosevelt.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=80–82}} He inherited $60,000 ({{Inflation|US|60000|1878|r=0|fmt=eq|cursign=$}}), enough on which he could live comfortably for the rest of his life.&lt;ref name=NYT14&gt;{{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/2014/07/18/1878-theodore-roosevelt-inherits-a-fortune/|title=First Glimpses: 1878: Theodore Roosevelt Inherits a Fortune|date=July 18, 2014|first=Mark|last=Bulik|newspaper=[[The New York Times]]|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201222113116/https://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/2014/07/18/1878-theodore-roosevelt-inherits-a-fortune/|access-date=December 22, 2020|archive-date=December 22, 2020}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:Teddy Roosevelt in sculling gear while an undergraduate at Harvard, circa 1877.jpg|thumb|Theodore Roosevelt as an undergraduate at [[Harvard University]] circa 1877. ]] His father, a devout [[Presbyterianism|Presbyterian]], regularly led the family in prayers. Young Theodore emulated him by teaching Sunday School for more than three years at [[Christ Church (Cambridge, Massachusetts)|Christ Church]] in Cambridge. When the minister at Christ Church, which was an Episcopal church, eventually insisted he become an Episcopalian to continue teaching, Roosevelt declined, and began teaching a mission class in a poor section of Cambridge.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last=McCullough |first=David |author-link=David McCullough |title=[[Mornings on Horseback]]: The Story of an Extraordinary Family, a Vanished Way of Life and the Unique Child Who Became Theodore Roosevelt |publisher=Simon &amp; Schuster |year=1982 |isbn=978-0-6714-4754-0 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt did well in science, philosophy, and rhetoric courses but struggled in Latin and Greek. He studied biology intently and was already an accomplished naturalist and a published [[Ornithology|ornithologist]]. He read prodigiously with an almost photographic memory.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=62}} Roosevelt participated in rowing and [[Harvard Boxing Club|boxing]], and was a member of the [[Alpha Delta Phi]] literary society, the [[Delta Kappa Epsilon]] fraternity, and the prestigious [[Porcellian Club]]. In 1880, Roosevelt graduated [[Phi Beta Kappa]] (22nd of 177) with an [[Bachelors of Arts|A.B.]] ''[[magna cum laude]]''. [[Henry F. Pringle]] wrote: {{blockquote|Roosevelt, attempting to analyze his college career and weigh the benefits he had received, felt that he had obtained little from Harvard. He had been depressed by the formalistic treatment of many subjects, by the rigidity, the attention to minutiae that were important in themselves, but which somehow were never linked up with the whole.{{sfn|Pringle|1931|p=27}}}} Roosevelt gave up his plan of studying natural science and attended [[Columbia Law School]], moving back into his family's home in New York. Although Roosevelt was an able student, he found law to be irrational.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=110–112, 123–133. quote p. 126}} Determined to enter politics, Roosevelt began attending meetings at Morton Hall, the headquarters of New York's 21st District Republican Association. Though Roosevelt's father had been a prominent member of the [[History of the Republican Party (United States)|Republican Party]], Roosevelt made an unorthodox career choice for someone of his class, as most of Roosevelt's peers refrained from becoming too closely involved in politics. Roosevelt found allies in the local Republican Party and defeated a Republican state assemblyman tied to the political machine of Senator [[Roscoe Conkling]] closely. After his election victory, Roosevelt dropped out of law school, later saying, &quot;I intended to be one of the governing class.&quot;{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=110–112, 123–133. quote p. 126}} ===Naval history and strategy=== While at Harvard, Roosevelt began a systematic study of the role played by the [[United States Navy]] in the [[War of 1812]].{{Sfn|Roosevelt|1913|p=35}}{{Sfn|Morris|1979|p=565}} He ultimately published ''[[The Naval War of 1812]]'' in 1882. The book included comparisons of British and American leadership down to the ship-to-ship level. It was praised for its scholarship and style, and remains a standard study of the war.&lt;ref name=&quot;mjcrawford1&quot;&gt;{{cite journal|last1=Crawford|first1=Michael J.|title=The Lasting Influence of Theodore Roosevelt's Naval War of 1812|journal=International Journal of Naval History|date=April 2002|volume=1|issue=1|url=http://www.ijnhonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/pdf_crawford.pdf|access-date=October 6, 2017|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180713113248/http://www.ijnhonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/pdf_crawford.pdf|archive-date=July 13, 2018}}&lt;/ref&gt; With the 1890 publication of ''[[The Influence of Sea Power upon History]],'' [[Alfred Thayer Mahan]] was hailed as the world's outstanding naval theorist by European leaders. Mahan popularized a concept that only nations with significant naval power had been able to influence history, dominate oceans, exert their diplomacy to the fullest, and defend their borders.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |jstor = 2711707|title = The Nature of &quot;Influence&quot;: Roosevelt, Mahan and the Concept of Sea Power|journal = American Quarterly|volume = 23|issue = 4|pages = 585–600|last1 = Karsten|first1 = Peter|year = 1971|doi = 10.2307/2711707 |issn=0003-0678 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Richard W. Turk, ''The Ambiguous Relationship: Theodore Roosevelt and Alfred Thayer Mahan'' (1987) [https://www.questia.com/library/2008464/the-ambiguous-relationship-theodore-roosevelt-and online] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160611162223/https://www.questia.com/library/2008464/the-ambiguous-relationship-theodore-roosevelt-and |date=June 11, 2016 }}&lt;/ref&gt; It has been believed Roosevelt's naval ideas were derived from Mahan's book, but naval historian, Nicolaus Danby felt Roosevelt's ideas predated Mahan's book.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite magazine | last = Danby | first = Nicholaus | title = The Roots of Roosevelt's Navalism| magazine = [[Naval History]] | date = February 2021 | url = https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2021/february/roots-roosevelts-navalism}}&lt;/ref&gt; === First marriage and widowerhood === In 1880, Roosevelt married socialite [[Alice Hathaway Lee Roosevelt|Alice Hathaway Lee]].{{sfn|Miller|1992|p=104}} Their daughter, [[Alice Roosevelt Longworth|Alice Lee Roosevelt]], was born on February 12, 1884. Two days later, the new mother died of undiagnosed [[kidney failure]], on the same day as Roosevelt's mother Martha died of [[typhoid fever]]. In his diary, Roosevelt wrote a large &quot;X&quot; on the page and then, &quot;The light has gone out of my life.&quot; Distraught, Roosevelt left baby Alice in the care of his sister Bamie while he grieved; he assumed custody of Alice when she was three.{{sfn|Miller|1992|pp=154–158}} After the deaths of his wife and mother, Roosevelt focused on his work, specifically by re-energizing a legislative investigation into corruption of the [[New York City government]], which arose from a bill proposing power be centralized in the mayor's office.{{sfn|Brands|1997|p=166}} For the rest of his life, he rarely spoke about his wife Alice and did not write about her in his autobiography.{{Sfn|Morris|1979|p=232}} ==Early political career== ===State Assemblyman=== [[File:TR NY State Assemblyman 1883 crop.jpg|thumb|upright|Roosevelt as a member of the [[New York State Assembly]] in 1883]] In [[1881 New York state election|1881]], Roosevelt won election to the [[New York State Assembly]], representing the [[New York's 21st State Assembly district|21st district]], then centered on the &quot;Silk Stocking District&quot; of New York County's [[Upper East Side]]. He served in the [[105th New York State Legislature|1882]], [[106th New York State Legislature|1883]], and [[107th New York State Legislature|1884]] sessions of the legislature. He began making his mark immediately: he blocked a corrupt effort of financier [[Jay Gould]] to lower his taxes. Roosevelt exposed the collusion of Gould and Judge [[Theodoric R. Westbrook|Theodore Westbrook]] and successfully argued for an investigation, aiming for the judge to be impeached. Although the investigation committee rejected the impeachment, Roosevelt had exposed corruption in [[Albany, New York|Albany]] and assumed a high and positive profile in New York publications.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=134–140}} Roosevelt's anti-corruption efforts helped him win re-election in [[1882 New York state election|1882]] by a margin greater than two-to-one, an achievement made more impressive by the victory that Democratic gubernatorial candidate [[Grover Cleveland]] won in Roosevelt's district.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=138–139}} With Conkling's [[Stalwart (politics)|Stalwart]] faction of the Republican Party in disarray following the [[assassination of President James Garfield]], Roosevelt won election as party leader in the state assembly. He allied with Governor Cleveland to win passage of a civil service reform bill.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=140–142}} Roosevelt won re-election and sought the office of [[Speaker of the New York State Assembly|Speaker]], but [[Titus Sheard]] obtained the position.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news | url = https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1884/01/01/106134466.pdf | title = Mr Sheard to be Speaker | newspaper = The New York Times | date = January 1, 1884 | access-date = June 13, 2018 | archive-date = February 25, 2021 | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20210225073137/https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1884/01/01/106134466.pdf | url-status = live }}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=153}} Roosevelt served as Chairman of the Committee on Affairs of Cities, during which he wrote more bills than any other legislator.&lt;ref&gt;Edward P. Kohn, {{&quot;-}}'A Most Revolting State of Affairs': Theodore Roosevelt's Aldermanic Bill and the New York Assembly City Investigating Committee of 1884&quot;, ''American Nineteenth Century History'' (2009) 10#1 pp: 71–92.&lt;/ref&gt; ===Presidential election of 1884=== {{See also|1884 United States presidential election}} With numerous presidential hopefuls, Roosevelt supported Senator [[George F. Edmunds]] of Vermont. The state Republican Party preferred incumbent president, [[Chester Arthur]], who was known for passing the [[Pendleton Civil Service Reform Act]]. Roosevelt succeeded in influencing the Manhattan delegates at the state convention. He then took control of the convention, bargaining through the night and outmaneuvering supporters of Arthur and [[James G. Blaine]]; consequently, he gained a national reputation as a key politician in his state.{{sfn|Putnam|1958|pp=413–424}} Roosevelt attended the [[1884 Republican National Convention]] in [[Chicago]], where he gave a speech convincing delegates to nominate African American [[John R. Lynch]], an Edmunds supporter, to be temporary chair. Roosevelt fought alongside the [[Mugwump]] reformers against Blaine. However, Blaine gained support from Arthur's and Edmunds's delegates, and won the nomination. In a crucial moment of his budding career, Roosevelt resisted the demand of fellow Mugwumps that he bolt from Blaine. He bragged: &quot;We achieved a victory in getting up a combination to beat the Blaine nominee for temporary chairman...this needed...skill, boldness and energy... to get the different factions to come in... to defeat the common foe.&quot;{{sfn|Brands|1997|p=171}} He was impressed by an invitation to speak before an audience of ten thousand, the largest crowd he had addressed up to then. Having gotten a taste of national politics, Roosevelt felt less aspiration for advocacy on the state level; he retired to his new &quot;Chimney Butte Ranch&quot; on the [[Little Missouri River (North Dakota)|Little Missouri River]].{{sfn|Putnam|1958|pp=445–450}} Roosevelt refused to join other Mugwumps in supporting Cleveland, the [[History of the United States Democratic Party|Democratic]] nominee in the general election. After Blaine won the nomination, Roosevelt carelessly said he would give &quot;hearty support to any decent Democrat&quot;. He distanced himself from the promise, saying that it had not been meant &quot;for publication&quot;.{{sfn|Pringle|1956|p=61}} When a reporter asked if he would support Blaine, Roosevelt replied, &quot;I decline to answer.&quot;{{sfn|Putnam|1958|p=445}} In the end, he realized he had to support Blaine to maintain his role in the party and did so in a press release.{{sfn|Putnam|1958|p=467}} Having lost the support of many reformers, and still reeling from the deaths of his wife and mother, Roosevelt decided to retire from politics and moved to [[North Dakota]].{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=161}} ==Cattle rancher in Dakota== [[File:TR Buckskin Tiffany Knife.jpg|thumb|Roosevelt as a [[Badlands]] hunter in 1885]] Roosevelt first visited the [[Dakota Territory]] in 1883 to hunt [[bison]]. Exhilarated by the [[western lifestyle]] and with the cattle business booming, Roosevelt invested $14,000 {{USDCY|14000|1883}} in hope of becoming a prosperous cattle rancher. For several years, he shuttled between his home in New York and ranch in Dakota.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Theodore Roosevelt the Rancher |url=https://www.nps.gov/thro/learn/historyculture/theodore-roosevelt-the-rancher.htm |publisher=National Park Service |access-date=November 27, 2019 |archive-date=September 2, 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190902213054/https://www.nps.gov/thro/learn/historyculture/theodore-roosevelt-the-rancher.htm |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Following the [[1884 United States presidential election]], Roosevelt built [[Elkhorn Ranch]] {{cvt|35|mi|km}} north of the boomtown of [[Medora, North Dakota]]. Roosevelt learned to ride western style, rope, and hunt on the banks of the [[Little Missouri River (North Dakota)|Little Missouri]]. A cowboy, he said, possesses, &quot;few of the emasculated, milk-and-water moralities admired by the pseudo-philanthropists; but he does possess, to a very high degree, the stern, manly qualities that are invaluable to a nation&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book| first = Theodore| last = Roosevelt| title = Ranch Life and the Hunting Trail| url = https://books.google.com/books?id=BY4-AAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA56| year = 1902| publisher = Century| pages = 55–56| isbn = 978-0-486-47340-6| access-date = October 17, 2015| archive-date = April 7, 2015| archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20150407023213/http://books.google.com/books?id=BY4-AAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA56| url-status = live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book | first = Will | last = Morrisey | title = The Dilemma of Progressivism: How Roosevelt, Taft, and Wilson Reshaped the American Regime of Self-Government | url = https://books.google.com/books?id=oS2Kcqjl-VgC&amp;pg=PA41 | year = 2009 | publisher = Rowman &amp; Littlefield | page = 41 | isbn = 978-0-7425-6618-7 | access-date = October 17, 2015 | archive-date = April 6, 2015 | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20150406172847/http://books.google.com/books?id=oS2Kcqjl-VgC&amp;pg=PA41 | url-status = live }}&lt;/ref&gt; He wrote about frontier life for national magazines and published books: ''Hunting Trips of a Ranchman'', ''Ranch Life and the Hunting-Trail'', and ''The Wilderness Hunter''.{{sfn|Brands|1997|p=191}} Roosevelt successfully led efforts to organize ranchers to address the problems of overgrazing and other shared concerns, which resulted in the formation of the Little Missouri Stockmen's Association. He formed the [[Boone and Crockett Club]], whose primary goal was the conservation of large game animals and their habitats.{{sfn|Brands|1997|p=189}} In 1886, Roosevelt served as a [[Sheriffs in the United States|deputy sheriff]] in [[Billings County, North Dakota]]. He and ranch hands hunted down three boat thieves.&lt;ref&gt;Theodore Roosevelt National Park, &quot;Roosevelt Pursues the Boat Thieves&quot; [https://www.nps.gov/thro/learn/historyculture/roosevelt-pursues-boat-thieves.htm online]&lt;/ref&gt; The severe [[winter of 1886–1887]] wiped out his herd and over half of his $80,000 investment {{USDCY|80000|1887}}.{{sfn|Morris|1979|p=376}}&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.nps.gov/thro/historyculture/theodore-roosevelt-the-rancher.htm|title=Theodore Roosevelt the Rancher|website=nps.gov|publisher=National Park Service|access-date=January 13, 2015|quote=The blow proved disastrous for Roosevelt, who lost over half of his $80,000 investment, the equivalent of approximately $1.7 million today.|archive-date=February 8, 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150208112452/http://www.nps.gov/thro/historyculture/theodore-roosevelt-the-rancher.htm|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; He ended his ranching life and returned to New York, where he escaped the damaging label of an ineffectual intellectual.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=163–164}} ==Second marriage== [[File:Smithsonian - NPG - Roosevelt - NPG 81 126.jpg|thumb|Roosevelt and members of [[Roosevelt family|his family]]. Left to right: [[Ethel Roosevelt Derby|Ethel]], [[Kermit Roosevelt|Kermit]], [[Quentin Roosevelt|Quentin]], [[Edith Roosevelt|Edith]], [[Theodore Roosevelt Jr.|Theodore III (Ted)]], Theodore, [[Archibald Roosevelt|Archibald]], [[Alice Roosevelt Longworth|Alice]], and [[Nicholas Longworth]]]] On December 2, 1886, Roosevelt married his childhood friend, [[Edith Roosevelt|Edith Kermit Carow]], at [[St George's, Hanover Square]], in [[London]], England.&lt;ref&gt;Catherine Forslund, &quot;Edith Kermit Carow Roosevelt: The Victorian Modern First Lady&quot; in ''A Companion to First Ladies'' (2016): 298–319.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book | editor-first = S | editor-last = Gwynn | title = The Letters and Friendships | first = Sir Cecil Spring | last = Rice | publisher = Constable &amp; Co| year = 1929 | page = 121}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt felt deeply troubled that his second marriage was soon after the death of his first wife and he faced resistance from his sisters.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=181–182}} The couple had five children: [[Theodore Roosevelt Jr.|Theodore &quot;Ted&quot; III]] in 1887, [[Kermit Roosevelt|Kermit]] in 1889, [[Ethel Roosevelt Derby|Ethel]] in 1891, [[Archibald Roosevelt|Archibald]] in 1894, and [[Quentin Roosevelt|Quentin]] in 1897. They also raised Roosevelt's daughter from his first marriage, [[Alice Roosevelt Longworth|Alice]], who often clashed with her stepmother.{{sfn|Miller|1992|pp=193–194}} ==Reentering public life== Upon Roosevelt's return to New York, Republican leaders approached him about running for [[mayor of New York City]] in the [[1886 New York City mayoral election|1886 election]].{{sfn|Kohn|2006}} Roosevelt accepted the nomination despite having little hope against [[Labor Party (United States, 19th century)|United Labor Party]] candidate [[Henry George]] and Democrat [[Abram Hewitt]]. Roosevelt campaigned hard, but Hewitt won with 41%, taking the votes of many Republicans who feared George's radical policies. George was held to 31%, and Roosevelt took third with 27%.&lt;ref name=everything&gt;{{cite book|last=Sharp|first=Arthur G.|title=The Everything Theodore Roosevelt Book: The Extraordinary Life of an American Icon|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=QSdqR6Wp31wC&amp;pg=PA78|year=2011|publisher=Adams Media|pages=78–79|isbn=978-1-4405-2729-6|access-date=October 17, 2015|archive-date=April 7, 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150407023635/http://books.google.com/books?id=QSdqR6Wp31wC&amp;pg=PA78|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{sfn|Miller|1992|pp=183–185}} Fearing his political career might never recover, Roosevelt turned to writing ''The Winning of the West'', tracking the westward movement of Americans; it was a great success, earning favorable reviews and selling all copies from the first printing.{{sfn|Miller|1992|pp=197–200}} ===Civil Service Commission=== After [[Benjamin Harrison]] unexpectedly defeated Blaine for the presidential nomination at the [[1888 Republican National Convention]], Roosevelt gave [[Stump speech (politics)|stump speeches]] in the Midwest in support of Harrison.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=201}} On the insistence of [[Henry Cabot Lodge]], President Harrison appointed Roosevelt to the [[United States Civil Service Commission]], where he served until 1895.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=203}} While many of his predecessors had approached the office as a [[sinecure]],{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=206–207}} Roosevelt fought the [[spoils system|spoilsmen]] and demanded enforcement of civil service laws.{{Sfn|Thayer|1919|loc=ch. VI|pp=1–2}} ''[[The Sun (New York)|The Sun]]'' described Roosevelt as &quot;irrepressible, belligerent, and enthusiastic&quot;.{{Sfn|Bishop|2007|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=KPMEAAAAYAAJ&amp;q=Theodore+Roosevelt+and+His+Time+Shown+in+His+Own+Letters 51]}} Roosevelt clashed with Postmaster General [[John Wanamaker]], who handed out patronage positions to Harrison supporters, and Roosevelt's attempt to force out several postal workers damaged Harrison politically.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=216–221}} Despite Roosevelt's support for Harrison's reelection in the [[1892 U.S. presidential election|1892 presidential election]], the winner, Grover Cleveland, reappointed him.{{Sfn|Bishop|2007|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=KPMEAAAAYAAJ&amp;q=Theodore+Roosevelt+and+His+Time+Shown+in+His+Own+Letters 53]}} Roosevelt's close friend and biographer, [[Joseph Bucklin Bishop]], described his assault on the spoils system: {{Blockquote | The very citadel of spoils politics, the hitherto impregnable fortress that had existed unshaken since it was erected on the foundation laid by [[Andrew Jackson]], was tottering to its fall under the assaults of this audacious and irrepressible young man... Whatever may have been the feelings of the (fellow Republican party) President (Harrison)—and there is little doubt that he had no idea when he appointed Roosevelt that he would prove to be so veritable a bull in a china shop—he refused to remove him and stood by him firmly till the end of his term.{{Sfn|Bishop|2007|p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=KPMEAAAAYAAJ&amp;q=Theodore+Roosevelt+and+His+Time+Shown+in+His+Own+Letters 51]}}}} ===New York City Police Commissioner=== In 1894, reform Republicans approached Roosevelt about running for Mayor of New York again; he declined, mostly due to his wife's resistance to being removed from the Washington social set. Soon after, he realized he had missed an opportunity to reinvigorate a dormant political career. He retreated to the Dakotas; Edith regretted her role in the decision and vowed there would be no repeat.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=265–268}} [[William Lafayette Strong]] won the 1894 mayoral election and offered Roosevelt a position on the board of the [[New York City Police Commissioner]]s.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=201}}&lt;ref&gt;&quot;A Chronology&quot;. [[Theodore Roosevelt Association]] [http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/site/c.elKSIdOWIiJ8H/b.9260727/k.7F11/A_Chronology.htm online] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190304232503/http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/site/c.elKSIdOWIiJ8H/b.9260727/k.7F11/A_Chronology.htm |date=March 4, 2019 }} Accessed December 2, 2018&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt became president of commissioners and radically reformed the police force: he implemented regular inspections of firearms and physical exams, appointed recruits based on their physical and mental qualifications rather than political affiliation, established [[Meritorious Service Medal (United States)|Meritorious Service Medals]], closed corrupt police hostelries, and had telephones installed in station houses.&lt;ref&gt;Jay Stuart Berman, ''Police administration and progressive reform: Theodore Roosevelt as police commissioner of New York'' (1987)&lt;/ref&gt; In 1894, Roosevelt met [[Jacob Riis]], the [[muckraker|muckraking]] ''[[The Sun (New York City)|Evening Sun]]'' journalist who was opening the eyes of New Yorkers to the terrible conditions of the city's immigrants with such books as ''[[How the Other Half Lives]].'' Riis described how his book affected Roosevelt: {{blockquote|When Roosevelt read [my] book, he came... No one ever helped as he did. For two years we were brothers in (New York City's crime-ridden) [[Mulberry Street (Manhattan)|Mulberry Street]]. When he left I had seen its golden age... There is very little ease where Theodore Roosevelt leads, as we all of us found out. The lawbreaker found it out who predicted scornfully that he would &quot;knuckle down to politics the way they all did&quot;, and lived to respect him, though he swore at him, as the one of them all who was stronger than pull... that was what made the age golden, that for the first time a moral purpose came into the street. In the light of it everything was transformed.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book | last = Riis | first = Jacob A | title = The Making of an American | chapter = XIII | page = 3 | publisher = Bartleby}}&lt;/ref&gt;}} Roosevelt made a habit of walking officers' [[Beat (police)|beats]] at night and early in the morning to make sure that they were on duty.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=277}} He made a concerted effort to uniformly enforce New York's [[Raines law|Sunday closing law]]; in this, he ran up against [[Thomas C. Platt|Tom Platt]] and [[Tammany Hall]]—he was notified the Police Commission was being legislated out of existence. His crackdowns led to protests. Invited to one large demonstration, not only did he accept, but he delighted in the insults and lampoons directed at him, and earned goodwill.&lt;ref name=&quot;Bully Pulpit&quot;&gt;{{cite book |last1=Goodwin |first1=Delores Kerns |title=The bully pulpit: Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, and the Golden Age of journalism |url=https://archive.org/details/isbn_9781416547860 |url-access=registration |date=2013 |publisher=Simon &amp; Schuster |isbn=978-1-4165-4787-7 |edition=First Simon &amp; Schuster hardcover}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt chose to defer rather than split with his party.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=293}} As Governor of New York State, he would later sign an act replacing the Police Commission with a Police Commissioner.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news|url=http://www.harpersweekly.org/09cartoon/BrowseByDateCartoon.asp?Month=September&amp;Date=6 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20070802003017/http://www.harpersweekly.org/09cartoon/BrowseByDateCartoon.asp?Month=September&amp;Date=6 |archive-date=August 2, 2007 |title=Cartoon of the Day |first=Robert C |last=Kennedy |newspaper=Harper's Weekly |date=September 6, 1902 }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Emergence as national figure== {{Progressivism sidebar|politicians}} ===Assistant Secretary of the Navy=== [[File:LC-USZC4-701 (17518506711).jpg|thumb|The [[Asiatic Squadron]] destroying the Spanish fleet in the [[Battle of Manila Bay]] on May 1, 1898]] In the [[1896 United States presidential election|1896 presidential election]], Roosevelt backed [[Thomas Brackett Reed]] for the Republican nomination, but [[William McKinley]] won the nomination and defeated [[William Jennings Bryan]] in the general election.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=242–243}} Roosevelt strongly opposed Bryan's [[free silver]] platform, viewing many of Bryan's followers as dangerous fanatics. He gave campaign speeches for McKinley.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=243–246}} Urged by Senator Henry Cabot Lodge, President McKinley appointed Roosevelt as the [[Assistant Secretary of the Navy]] in 1897.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |first=David |last=Lemelin |title=Theodore Roosevelt as Assistant Secretary of the Navy: Preparing America for the World Stage |journal=History Matters |year=2011 |pages=13–34}}&lt;/ref&gt; Secretary of the Navy [[John D. Long]] was in poor health and left many major decisions to Roosevelt. Influenced by [[Alfred Thayer Mahan]], Roosevelt called for a build-up in naval strength, particularly the construction of [[battleship]]s.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=253}} Roosevelt also began pressing his national security views regarding the Pacific and the Caribbean on McKinley and was adamant that Spain be ejected from Cuba.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=310–212}} He explained his priorities to one of the Navy's planners in late 1897: {{Blockquote |I would regard war with Spain from two viewpoints: first, the advisability on the grounds both of humanity and self-interest of interfering on behalf of the Cubans, and of taking one more step toward the complete freeing of America from European dominion; second, the benefit done our people by giving them something to think of which is not material gain, and especially the benefit done our military forces by trying both the Navy and Army in actual practice.{{Sfn|Roosevelt|2001|pp=157–158}}}} On February 15, 1898, the armored cruiser {{USS|Maine|ACR-1|6}} exploded in the harbor of [[Havana, Cuba]], killing hundreds of crew. While Roosevelt and many other Americans blamed Spain for the explosion, McKinley sought a diplomatic solution.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=267–268}} Without approval from Long or McKinley, Roosevelt sent out orders to several naval vessels to prepare for war.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=267–268}}{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=325–326}} [[George Dewey]], who had received an appointment to lead the [[Asiatic Squadron]] with the backing of Roosevelt, later credited his victory at the [[Battle of Manila Bay]] to Roosevelt's orders.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=261, 268}} After giving up hope of a peaceful solution, McKinley asked Congress to declare war on Spain, beginning the [[Spanish–American War]].{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=271–272}} ===War in Cuba=== {{Further|Rough Riders}} [[File:Theodore Rooseveltnewtry.jpg|thumb|upright=.8|Colonel Roosevelt in 1898]] [[File:TR San Juan Hill 1898.jpg|thumb|Colonel Roosevelt and the [[Rough Riders]] along with members of the 3rd Volunteers and the [[10th Cavalry Regiment (United States)|10th Cavalry Regiment]] after capturing [[Kettle Hill]] in [[Cuba]] during the [[Spanish-American War]] in July 1898]] With the beginning of the [[Spanish–American War]] in 1898, Roosevelt resigned as Assistant Secretary of the Navy. Along with Army Colonel [[Leonard Wood]], he formed the [[Rough Riders|First U.S. Volunteer Cavalry Regiment]].&lt;ref name=&quot;LOC&quot;&gt;{{cite web | url=https://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/1898/roughriders.html | title=The World of 1989: The Spanish–American War; Rough Riders | publisher=Library of Congress | access-date=February 7, 2015 | archive-date=February 7, 2015 | archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150207100632/http://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/1898/roughriders.html | url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; His wife and many friends begged Roosevelt to remain in Washington, but Roosevelt was determined to see battle. When the newspapers reported the formation of the new regiment, Roosevelt and Wood were flooded with applications.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=272–274}} Referred to by the press as the &quot;Rough Riders&quot;, it was one of many temporary units active only during the war.{{Sfn|Samuels|1997|p=148}} The regiment trained for several weeks in [[San Antonio, Texas]]; in his autobiography, Roosevelt wrote that his experience with the [[New York National Guard]] enabled him to immediately begin teaching basic soldiering skills.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last=Roosevelt |first=Theodore |date=2014 |title=Theodore Roosevelt: An Autobiography |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=TwHCAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA244 |publisher=The Floating Press |page=244 |isbn=978-1-77653-337-4 |access-date=February 9, 2015 |archive-date=November 19, 2016 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161119023721/https://books.google.com/books?id=TwHCAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA244 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Diversity characterized the regiment, which included [[Ivy League]]rs, athletes, frontiersmen, [[Native Americans in the United States|Native Americans]], hunters, miners, former soldiers, tradesmen, and sheriffs. The Rough Riders were part of the cavalry division commanded by former Confederate general [[Joseph Wheeler]]. Roosevelt and his men landed in [[Daiquirí]], Cuba, on June 23, 1898, and marched to [[Siboney, Cuba|Siboney]]. Wheeler sent the Rough Riders on a parallel road northwest running along a ridge up from the beach. Roosevelt took command of the regiment; he had his first experience in combat when the Rough Riders met Spanish troops in a skirmish known as the [[Battle of Las Guasimas]]. They fought their way through Spanish resistance and, together with the Regulars, forced the Spaniards to abandon their positions.&lt;ref name=&quot;The Rough Riders&quot;&gt;{{Cite book | last = Roosevelt | first = Theodore | author-link = Theodore Roosevelt | year = 1898 | chapter-url = http://www.bartleby.com/51/ | title = The Rough Riders | chapter = III | page = 2 | publisher = Bartleby | access-date = August 8, 2008 | archive-date = July 23, 2008 | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20080723190331/http://bartleby.com/51/ | url-status = live }}&lt;/ref&gt; On July 1, in a combined assault with the Regulars, under Roosevelt's leadership, the Rough Riders became famous for charges up [[Kettle Hill]] and San Juan Hill. Roosevelt was the only soldier on horseback, as he rode back and forth between rifle pits at the forefront of the advance up Kettle Hill, an advance that he urged despite the absence of orders. He was forced to walk up the last part of Kettle Hill because his horse had been entangled in [[barbed wire]]. The assaults would become known as the Battle of San Juan Heights. The victories came at a cost of 200 killed and 1,000 wounded.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=356}} In August, Roosevelt and other officers demanded the soldiers be returned home. Roosevelt recalled San Juan Heights as &quot;the great day of my life&quot;. After returning to civilian life, Roosevelt preferred to be known as &quot;Colonel Roosevelt&quot; or &quot;The Colonel&quot;; &quot;Teddy&quot; remained much more popular with the public, though Roosevelt openly despised that moniker.&lt;ref name= HandyBook&gt;{{cite book| last= Matuz| first = Roger | title = The Handy Presidents Answer Book | url= https://archive.org/details/handypresidentsa0000matu| url-access= registration| year = 2004 | publisher=Visible Ink Press| isbn = 978-0-7808-0773-0 }}{{page needed|date=September 2021}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{page needed|date=September 2021}} ===Governor of New York=== Shortly after Roosevelt's return, Republican Congressman [[Lemuel E. Quigg]], a lieutenant of New York machine boss [[Thomas C. Platt]], asked Roosevelt to run in the [[1898 New York state election|1898 gubernatorial election]]. Prospering politically from the [[Platt machine]], Roosevelt's rise to power was marked by the pragmatic decisions of Platt, who disliked Roosevelt. Platt feared Roosevelt would oppose his interests in office and was reluctant to propel Roosevelt to the forefront of national politics, but needed a strong candidate due to the unpopularity of the incumbent Republican governor, [[Frank S. Black]]. Roosevelt agreed to become the nominee and to try not to &quot;make war&quot; with the Republican establishment once in office. Roosevelt defeated Black in the Republican caucus, and faced Democrat [[Augustus Van Wyck]], a well-respected judge, in the general election.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=309–311, 318}} Roosevelt campaigned on his war record, winning by just 1%.{{Sfn|Morris|1979|pp=674–687}} As governor, Roosevelt learned about economic issues and political techniques that proved valuable in his presidency. He studied the problems of trusts, monopolies, labor relations, and conservation. G. Wallace Chessman argues that Roosevelt's program &quot;rested firmly upon the concept of the square deal by a neutral state&quot;. The rules for the Square Deal were &quot;honesty in public affairs, an equitable sharing of privilege and responsibility, and subordination of party and local concerns to the interests of the state at large&quot;.{{Sfn|Chessman|1965|p=6}} By holding twice-daily press conferences—an innovation—Roosevelt remained connected with his middle-class base.{{Sfn|Morris|1979|p=693}} Roosevelt successfully pushed the Ford Franchise-Tax bill, which taxed public franchises granted by the state and controlled by corporations, declaring that &quot;a corporation which derives its powers from the State, should pay to the State a just percentage of its earnings as a return for the privileges it enjoys&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book | first = Theodore | last = Roosevelt | title = The Roosevelt Policy: Speeches, Letters and State Papers, Relating to Corporate Wealth and Closely Allied Topics, of Theodore Roosevelt, President of the United States | url = https://books.google.com/books?id=bJ8-AAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA2 | year = 1908 | page = 2 | access-date = October 17, 2015 | archive-date = April 6, 2015 | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20150406171230/http://books.google.com/books?id=bJ8-AAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA2 | url-status = live }}&lt;/ref&gt; He rejected Platt worries that this approached Bryanite Socialism, explaining that without it, New York voters might get angry and adopt public ownership of streetcar lines and other franchises.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=378–379}} Power to make appointments to policy-making positions was a key role for the governor. Platt insisted he be consulted on major appointments; Roosevelt appeared to comply, but then made his own decisions. Historians marvel that Roosevelt managed to appoint so many first-rate people with Platt's approval. He even enlisted Platt's help in securing reform, such as in spring 1899, when Platt pressured state senators to vote for a civil service bill that the secretary of the Civil Service Reform Association called &quot;superior to any civil service statute heretofore secured in America&quot;.{{Sfn|Chessman|1965|p=79}} Chessman argues that as governor, Roosevelt developed the principles that shaped his presidency, especially insistence upon the public responsibility of large corporations, publicity as a first remedy for trusts, regulation of railroad rates, mediation of the conflict of capital and labor, conservation of natural resources and protection of the poor.{{Sfn|Chessman|1965|p=6}} Roosevelt sought to position himself against the excesses of large corporations and radical movements.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=322}} As chief executive of the most populous state, Roosevelt was widely considered a potential presidential candidate, and supporters such as [[William Allen White]] encouraged him to run.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=331–333}} Roosevelt had no interest in challenging McKinley for the nomination in 1900 and was denied his preferred post of [[Secretary of War]]. As his term progressed, Roosevelt pondered a 1904 run, but was uncertain about whether he should seek re-election as governor in 1900.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=333–334}} ===Vice presidency (1901)=== {{Main |1900 United States presidential election}} In November 1899, Vice President [[Garret Hobart]] died, leaving an open spot on the 1900 Republican national ticket. Though Henry Cabot Lodge and others urged him to run for vice president in 1900, Roosevelt issued a public statement saying that he would not accept the nomination.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=333–334, 338}} Eager to be rid of Roosevelt, Platt nonetheless began a newspaper campaign in favor of Roosevelt's nomination.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=338}} Roosevelt attended the [[1900 Republican National Convention]] as a state delegate and struck a bargain with Platt: Roosevelt would accept the nomination if the convention offered it to him but would otherwise serve another term as governor. Platt asked Pennsylvania party boss [[Matthew Quay]] to lead the campaign for Roosevelt's nomination, and Quay outmaneuvered [[Mark Hanna]] at the convention to put Roosevelt on the ticket.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=340–341}} Roosevelt won the nomination unanimously.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=342}} Roosevelt's vice-presidential campaigning proved highly energetic and a match for Democratic presidential nominee William Jennings Bryan's barnstorming style. In a whirlwind campaign that displayed his energy to the public, Roosevelt made 480 stops in 23 states. He denounced the radicalism of Bryan, contrasting it with the heroism of those who won the war against Spain. Bryan had strongly supported the war itself, but he denounced the annexation of the [[Philippines]] as [[imperialism]]. Roosevelt countered that it was best for the [[Filipinos]] to have stability and the Americans to have a proud place in the world. The voters gave McKinley an even larger victory than that which he had achieved in 1896.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=388–405}}&lt;ref&gt;John M. Hilpert, ''American Cyclone: Theodore Roosevelt and His 1900 Whistle-Stop Campaign'' (U Press of Mississippi, 2015).&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt took office as vice president in March 1901. The office was a powerless sinecure and did not suit Roosevelt's aggressive temperament.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal | first = G Wallace | last = Chessman | title = Theodore Roosevelt's Campaign Against the Vice-Presidency | journal = Historian | year = 1952 | volume = 14 | number = 2 | pages = 173–190 | doi=10.1111/j.1540-6563.1952.tb00132.x}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt's six months as vice president were uneventful and boring for a man of action. He had no power; he presided over the Senate for a mere four days before it adjourned.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=346}} On September 2, 1901, Roosevelt first publicized an [[aphorism]] that thrilled his supporters: &quot;[[Big Stick ideology|Speak softly and carry a big stick, and you will go far.&quot;]]&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |last=Woltman |first=Nick |date=August 31, 2015 |title=Roosevelt's 'big stick' line at State Fair stuck...later |url=https://www.twincities.com/2015/08/31/roosevelts-big-stick-line-at-state-fair-stuck-later/ |work=[[Twin Cities Pioneer Press]] |access-date=June 9, 2020 |archive-date=June 10, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610043645/https://www.twincities.com/2015/08/31/roosevelts-big-stick-line-at-state-fair-stuck-later/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Presidency (1901–1909)== {{Main |Presidency of Theodore Roosevelt}} [[File:Theodore Roosevelt by John Singer Sargent, 1903.jpg|thumb|Official [[White House]] portrait of Roosevelt by [[John Singer Sargent]] in 1903]] On September 6, 1901, President McKinley was attending the [[Pan-American Exposition]] in [[Buffalo, New York]], when he [[Assassination of William McKinley|was shot]] by anarchist [[Leon Czolgosz]]. Roosevelt, vacationing in [[Isle La Motte, Vermont]],&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=74729|title=Theodore Roosevelt's Visit to Isle la Motte Historical Marker|access-date=February 22, 2022|archive-date=February 22, 2022|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220222173837/https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=74729|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; traveled to Buffalo to visit McKinley in the hospital. When McKinley seemed to recover, Roosevelt resumed his vacation.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.trsite.org/learn/the-day-of-the-inauguration|title=The Inauguration|access-date=February 22, 2022|archive-date=February 22, 2022|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220222173838/https://www.trsite.org/learn/the-day-of-the-inauguration|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; When McKinley's condition worsened, Roosevelt rushed back to Buffalo. He was in [[North Creek, New York|North Creek]] when he learned of McKinley's death on September 14. Roosevelt then continued to Buffalo and was [[First inauguration of Theodore Roosevelt|sworn in as the 26th president]] at the [[Theodore Roosevelt Inaugural National Historic Site|Ansley Wilcox House]].{{sfn|Miller|1992|pp=348–352}} McKinley's supporters were uneasy about Roosevelt, with Ohio Senator [[Mark Hanna]] particularly bitter, given his strong opposition at the convention. Although Roosevelt assured party leaders that he would adhere to McKinley's policies and retained his Cabinet, he sought to establish himself as the party's leader and position himself for the 1904 election.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=354–356}} Shortly after taking office, Roosevelt invited [[Booker T. Washington]] to dinner at the [[White House]], sparking a bitter reaction across the heavily segregated South.&lt;ref&gt;Dewey W. Grantham, &quot;Dinner at the White House: Theodore Roosevelt, Booker T. Washington, and the South.&quot; ''Tennessee Historical Quarterly'' (1958) 17.2: 112-130 [https://www.jstor.org/stable/42621372 online] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211023060345/https://www.jstor.org/stable/42621372 |date=October 23, 2021 }}&lt;/ref&gt; While Roosevelt initially planned more dinners with Washington, he later avoided further invitations in favor of business appointments to retain political support in the white South.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=422–423}}{{Sfn|Morris|2001|p=58}} ===Domestic policies: The Square Deal=== {{Further|Square Deal}} ====Trust busting and regulation==== Roosevelt was hailed as the &quot;trust-buster&quot; for his aggressive use of the 1890 [[Sherman Antitrust Act]], compared to his predecessors.{{sfn|Ruddy|2016}} He viewed big business as essential to the American economy, prosecuting only &quot;bad trusts&quot; that restrained trade and charged unfair prices.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=365–366}} Roosevelt brought 44 antitrust suits, breaking up the [[Northern Securities Company]], the largest railroad monopoly, and regulating [[Standard Oil]], the largest oil company.{{sfn|Ruddy|2016}} His predecessors, Benjamin Harrison, Grover Cleveland, and William McKinley, had together prosecuted only 18 antitrust violations.{{sfn|Ruddy|2016}} After winning large majorities in the [[1902 United States elections|1902 elections]], Roosevelt proposed creating the [[United States Department of Commerce and Labor]], which included the [[Bureau of Corporations]]. Congress was receptive to the department but skeptical of the antitrust powers Roosevelt wanted within the Bureau. Roosevelt appealed to the public, pressuring Congress, which overwhelmingly passed his version of the bill.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=378–381}} House Speaker [[Joseph Gurney Cannon]] commented on Roosevelt's desire for executive branch control: &quot;That fellow at the other end of the avenue wants everything from the birth of Christ to the death of the devil.&quot; Biographer Brands notes, &quot;Even his friends occasionally wondered whether there wasn't any custom or practice too minor for him to try to regulate, update or otherwise improve.&quot;{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=552–553}} Roosevelt's willingness to exercise power extended to attempted rule changes in [[American football]], forcing retention of martial arts classes at the [[U.S. Naval Academy]], revising disciplinary rules, altering the design of a disliked coin, and ordering simplified spellings for 300 words, though he rescinded the latter after ridicule from the press and a House protest.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=553–556}} ====Coal strike==== {{main|Coal strike of 1902}} In May 1902, [[United Mine Workers|anthracite coal miners]] went on strike, threatening a national energy shortage. After threatening the coal operators with federal troops, Roosevelt won their agreement to dispute arbitration by a commission, stopping the strike. The accord with [[J. P. Morgan]] resulted in miners getting more pay for fewer hours but no union recognition.{{Sfn|Harbaugh|1963|pp= 165–179}}{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=450–483}} Roosevelt said, &quot;My action on labor should always be considered in connection with my action as regards capital, and both are reducible to my favorite formula—a square deal for every man.&quot;{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=509}} He was the first president to help settle a labor dispute.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=376–377}} ====Prosecuted misconduct==== During Roosevelt's second year in office, corruption was uncovered in the [[Bureau of Indian Affairs|Indian Service]], the [[United States General Land Office]], and the [[United States Postal Service|Post Office Department]]. He prosecuted corrupt Indian agents who had cheated [[Native American tribes]] out of land parcels. Land fraud and speculation involving Oregon timberlands, led to him and [[Ethan A. Hitchcock (Interior)|Ethan A. Hitchcock]] forcing General Land Office Commissioner [[Binger Hermann]] from office, in November 1902. Special prosecutor [[Francis J. Heney]] obtained 146 indictments in the Oregon Land Office bribery ring.{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|p=207}} Roosevelt also prosecuted 44 postal employees on charges of bribery and fraud.{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|p=208}} Historians agree he moved &quot;quickly and decisively&quot; to address misconduct in his administration.{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|p=209}} ====Railroads==== {{Main|Hepburn Act}} Merchants complained that some railroad rates were too high. In the 1906 [[Hepburn Act]], Roosevelt sought to give the [[Interstate Commerce Commission]] (ICC) the power to regulate rates, but the Senate, led by conservative [[Nelson Aldrich]], resisted. Roosevelt worked with Democratic Senator [[Benjamin Tillman]] to pass the bill. They ultimately reached a compromise that gave the ICC the power to replace existing rates with &quot;just-and-reasonable&quot; maximum rates, allowing railroads to appeal to federal courts on what was &quot;reasonable&quot;.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=453–459}}{{sfn|Blum|1977|pp=89–117}} The Hepburn Act also granted the ICC regulatory power over pipeline fees, storage contracts, and other aspects of railroad operations.{{Sfn|Morris|2001|pp=445–448}} ====Pure food and drugs==== Roosevelt responded to public outrage over abuses in the food packing industry by pushing Congress to pass the [[Meat Inspection Act]] of 1906 and the [[Pure Food and Drug Act]]. Conservatives initially opposed the bill, but [[Upton Sinclair]]'s ''[[The Jungle]]'', published in 1906, galvanized support for reform.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=459–460}} The Meat Inspection Act banned misleading labels and [[preservatives]] with harmful chemicals. The Pure Food and Drug Act banned impure or falsely labeled food and drugs from being made, sold, and shipped. Roosevelt served as honorary president of the [[American School Hygiene Association]] from 1907 to 1908 and convened the first [[White House]] Conference on the Care of Dependent Children in 1909.&lt;ref name = &quot;ProgHealth21&quot;&gt;{{cite book|title=The progressive era's health reform movement: a historical dictionary|first1=Ruth C.|last1=Engs|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=mNeGQRBgd_MC|pages=20–22|publisher=Praeger|year=2003|isbn=0-275-97932-6|access-date=October 17, 2015|archive-date=April 7, 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150407023133/http://books.google.com/books?id=mNeGQRBgd_MC|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; ====Conservation==== {{main|Presidency of Theodore Roosevelt#Conservation}} [[File:President Theodore Roosevelt Driving Through the Wawona Tunnel Tree, in Yellowstone National Park (14994749857).jpg|thumb|Roosevelt driving through a [[Sequoiadendron giganteum|sequoia]] [[Wawona Tree|tree tunnel]]]] Roosevelt was proudest of his work in conserving natural resources and extending federal protection to land and wildlife.{{sfn|Bakari|2016}} He worked closely with Interior Secretary [[James Rudolph Garfield]] and Chief of the United States Forest Service [[Gifford Pinchot]] to enact a series of conservation programs that met resistance from Western Congress members, such as [[Charles William Fulton]].{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=469–471}} Nonetheless, Roosevelt established the [[United States Forest Service]], signed the creation of five [[National parks (United States)|National Parks]], and signed the 1906 [[Antiquities Act]], under which he proclaimed 18 new [[U.S. National Monument]]s. He also established the first 51 [[bird reserve]]s, four [[game preservation|game preserves]], and 150 [[United States National Forest|National Forests]]. The area of the United States he placed under public protection totals approximately {{convert|230|e6acre|km2|sp=us|abbr=off}}.{{sfn|Brinkley|2009}} Roosevelt was the first honorary member of the [[Camp Fire Club|Camp-Fire Club of America]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Hornaday |first1=William |title=Membership Nominations |url=https://wcsarchives.libraryhost.com/repositories/2/archival_objects/13160 |website=Wildlife Conservation Society |access-date=February 27, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt extensively used [[Executive order (United States)|executive orders]] to protect forest and wildlife lands during his presidency.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |title=Executing the Constitution: Putting the President Back Into the Constitution |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=qgzmexCI734C&amp;pg=PA53 |year=2006 |publisher=State University of New York Press |page=53 |isbn=978-0-7914-8190-5 |access-date=August 17, 2016 |archive-date=November 19, 2016 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161119073515/https://books.google.com/books?id=qgzmexCI734C&amp;pg=PA53 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; By the end of his second term, Roosevelt used executive orders to reserve {{convert|150|e6acre|km2|sigfig=1|abbr=off|sp=us}} of forestry land.&lt;ref name=&quot;Take up Your Pen&quot;&gt;{{cite book|last1=Dodds|first1=Graham|title=Take up Your Pen|date=2013|publisher=University of Pennsylvania|isbn=978-0-8122-4511-0|page=144}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt was unapologetic about his use of executive orders to protect the environment, despite Congress's perception that he was encroaching on too many lands.&lt;ref name=&quot;Take up Your Pen&quot;/&gt; Eventually, Senator [[Charles William Fulton|Charles Fulton]] attached an amendment to an agricultural appropriations bill preventing the president from reserving further land.&lt;ref name=&quot;Take up Your Pen&quot;/&gt; Before signing the bill, Roosevelt established an additional 21 forest reserves, waiting until the last minute to sign it into law.&lt;ref name=&quot;ReferenceA&quot;&gt;{{cite book|last1=Dodds|first1=Graham|title=Take up Your Pen|date=2013|publisher=University of Pennsylvania|isbn=978-0-8122-4511-0|page=146}}&lt;/ref&gt; In total, Roosevelt established 121 forest reserves in 31 states through executive orders.&lt;ref name=&quot;ReferenceA&quot;/&gt; Roosevelt issued 1,081 executive orders, more than any previous president except Grover Cleveland (253). The first 25 presidents issued a total of 1,262 executive orders.&lt;ref name=&quot;executiveorders&quot;&gt;{{cite web|url=http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/orders.php|title=Executive Orders|publisher=UCSB|access-date=August 17, 2016|archive-date=August 20, 2016|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160820213947/http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/orders.php|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; ====Business panic of 1907==== {{Further|Panic of 1907}} [[File:Theodore Roosevelt by Harris &amp; Ewing Studio, 1907.jpg|thumb|A 1907 portrait of Roosevelt by [[Harris &amp; Ewing]]]] In 1907, Roosevelt faced the greatest domestic economic crisis since the [[Panic of 1893]]. Wall Street's stock market entered a slump in early 1907, and many investors blamed Roosevelt's regulatory policies for the decline in stock prices.{{Sfn|Morris|2001|pp=495–496}} Roosevelt ultimately helped calm the crisis by meeting with the leaders of [[U.S. Steel]] on November 4, 1907, and approving their plan to purchase a Tennessee steel company near bankruptcy—its failure would ruin a major New York bank.{{sfn|Gould|2011|p=239}} However, in August, Roosevelt had exploded in anger at the super-rich for their economic malfeasance, calling them &quot;malefactors of great wealth&quot; in a major speech, &quot;The Puritan Spirit and the Regulation of Corporations&quot;. Trying to restore confidence, he blamed the crisis primarily on Europe, but then, after saluting the unbending rectitude of the Puritans, he went on:&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last1=Roosevelt |first1=Theodore |editor=Hermann Hagedorn|title=The Works of Theodore Roosevelt, Volume 18 - American Problems |date=1925 |publisher=[[Scribner &amp; Sons]] |page=99 |chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=4u4h58niE8cC&amp;pg=PA99 |access-date=January 19, 2024 |chapter=13 - The Puritan Spirit and the Regulation of Corporations&quot;(speech of August 20, 1907)}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;It may well be that the determination of the government...to punish certain malefactors of great wealth, has been responsible for something of the trouble; at least to the extent of having caused these men to combine to bring about as much financial stress as possible, in order to discredit the policy of the government and thereby secure a reversal of that policy, so that they may enjoy unmolested the fruits of their own evil-doing.&lt;/blockquote&gt; Regarding the very wealthy, Roosevelt privately scorned, &quot;their entire unfitness to govern the country, and ... the lasting damage they do by much of what they think are the legitimate big business operations of the day&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;Roosevelt to [[William Henry Moody]], September 21, 1907, in {{harvnb|Morison|1952|loc=5:802}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Foreign policy=== {{Main|Foreign policy of the Theodore Roosevelt administration}} ==== Japan ==== The American [[Newlands Resolution|annexation of Hawaii]] in 1898 was stimulated in part by fear that Japan would dominate or seize the Hawaiian Republic.&lt;ref&gt;William Michael Morgan, &quot;The anti-Japanese origins of the Hawaiian Annexation treaty of 1897.&quot; ''Diplomatic History'' 6.1 (1982): 23–44.&lt;/ref&gt; Similarly, Germany was the alternative to American takeover of the Philippines in 1900, and Tokyo strongly preferred the U.S. to take over. As the U.S. became a naval world power, it needed to find a way to avoid a military confrontation in the Pacific with Japan.&lt;ref&gt;James K. Eyre Jr, &quot;Japan and the American Annexation of the Philippines.&quot; ''Pacific Historical Review'' 11.1 (1942): 55–71 [https://www.jstor.org/stable/3632998 online] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211021085938/https://www.jstor.org/stable/3632998 |date=October 21, 2021 }}&lt;/ref&gt; In the 1890s, Roosevelt had been an ardent [[American imperialism|imperialist]] and vigorously defended the permanent acquisition of the Philippines in the 1900 campaign. After the [[Philippine–American War|local insurrection]] ended in 1902, Roosevelt wished to have a strong U.S. presence in the region as a symbol of democratic values, but he did not envision any new acquisitions. One of Roosevelt's priorities was the maintenance of friendly relations with Japan.&lt;ref&gt;Michael J. Green, ''By More Than Providence: Grand Strategy and American Power in the Asia Pacific Since 1783'' (2019) pp. 78–113.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Charles E. Neu, ''An Uncertain Friendship: Theodore Roosevelt and Japan, 1906–1909'' (1967) pp. 310–319.&lt;/ref&gt; From 1904 to 1905 [[Russo-Japanese War|Japan and Russia were at war]]. Both sides asked Roosevelt to mediate a peace conference, held successfully in [[Portsmouth, New Hampshire]]. Roosevelt won the [[Nobel Peace Prize]] for his efforts.&lt;ref&gt;Matsumura Masayoshi, &quot;Theodore Roosevelt and the Portsmouth Peace Conference: The Riddle and Ripple of his Forbearance.&quot; in ''Rethinking the Russo-Japanese War, 1904–5'' (Global Oriental, 2008) pp. 50–60.&lt;/ref&gt; Though he proclaimed that the United States would be neutral during the [[Russo-Japanese War]], Roosevelt secretly favored Imperial Japan to emerge victorious against the Russian Empire.&lt;ref&gt;Kissinger, pp. 41–42&lt;/ref&gt; In California, [[Anti-Japanese sentiment in the United States|anti-Japanese hostility was growing]], and Tokyo protested. Roosevelt [[Gentlemen's Agreement of 1907|negotiated a &quot;Gentleman's Agreement&quot; in 1907]]. It ended explicit discrimination against the Japanese, and Japan agreed not to allow unskilled immigrants into the United States.&lt;ref&gt;Neu, pp. 263–280&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Great White Fleet]] of American battleships visited Japan in 1908. Roosevelt intended to emphasize the superiority of the American fleet over the smaller Japanese navy, but instead of resentment, the visitors arrived to a joyous welcome. This goodwill facilitated the [[Root–Takahira Agreement]] of November 1908 which reaffirmed the status quo of Japanese control of Korea and American control of the Philippines.&lt;ref&gt;Thomas A. Bailey, &quot;The Root-Takahira Agreement of 1908.&quot; ''Pacific historical review'' 9.1 (1940): 19–35. [https://www.jstor.org/stable/3634124 online] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211023051400/https://www.jstor.org/stable/3634124 |date=October 23, 2021 }}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=614–616}} ==== China ==== Following the [[Boxer Rebellion]], foreign powers, including the United States, required China to pay indemnities as part of the [[Boxer Protocol|Boxer protocol]]. In 1908, Roosevelt appropriated these indemnities for the [[Boxer Indemnity Scholarship]]s, which funded tens of thousands of Chinese students to study in the U.S. over the next 40 years.&lt;ref name=&quot;:Minami&quot;&gt;{{Cite book |last=Minami |first=Kazushi |title=People's Diplomacy: How Americans and Chinese Transformed US-China Relations during the Cold War |date=2024 |publisher=[[Cornell University Press]] |isbn=9781501774157 |location=Ithaca, NY}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Rp|page=91}} ====Europe==== Success in the war against Spain and the new empire, plus having the largest economy in the world, meant that the United States had emerged as a world power.&lt;ref&gt;Walter LaFeber, &quot;The 'Lion in the Path': The US Emergence as a World Power.&quot; ''Political Science Quarterly'' 101.5 (1986): 705-718 [https://www.jstor.org/stable/2150973 online] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211023062833/https://www.jstor.org/stable/2150973 |date=October 23, 2021 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt searched for ways to win recognition for the position abroad.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=382–383}} He also played a major role in mediating the [[First Moroccan Crisis]] by calling the [[Algeciras Conference]], which averted war between France and Germany.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=450–451}} Roosevelt's presidency saw the strengthening of ties with Great Britain. [[The Great Rapprochement]] had begun with British support of the United States during the Spanish–American War, and it continued as Britain withdrew its fleet from the Caribbean in favor of directing most of its attention to the rising [[Anglo-German naval arms race|German naval threat]].{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=387–388}} In 1901, Britain and the U.S. signed the [[Hay–Pauncefote Treaty]], abrogating the [[Clayton–Bulwer Treaty]], which had prevented the U.S. from constructing a canal connecting the Pacific and the Atlantic Ocean.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=399–400}} The long-standing [[Alaska boundary dispute]] was settled on terms favorable to the U.S.; as Roosevelt later put it, this &quot;settled the last serious trouble between the British Empire and ourselves.&quot;{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=397–398}} ====Latin America and the Panama Canal==== As president, Roosevelt primarily directed the nation's overseas ambitions towards the Caribbean, especially locations that had a bearing on the defense of his pet project, the [[Panama Canal]].{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=615–616}} Roosevelt also increased the size of the navy, and by the end of his second term, the U.S. had more battleships than any country other than Britain. The Panama Canal, when it opened in 1914, allowed the U.S. Navy to rapidly move back and forth from the Pacific to the Caribbean to European waters.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=384}} In December 1902, the Germans, British, and Italians blockaded the ports of [[Venezuela]] to force the repayment of delinquent loans. Roosevelt was particularly concerned about the motives of German Emperor [[Wilhelm II, German Emperor|Wilhelm II]]. He succeeded in getting the three nations to agree to arbitration by tribunal at [[The Hague]], and successfully defused the [[Venezuela Crisis of 1902–1903|crisis]].{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=464}} The latitude granted to the Europeans by the arbiters was in part responsible for the &quot;[[Roosevelt Corollary]]&quot; to the [[Monroe Doctrine]], which the President issued in 1904: &lt;blockquote&gt;Chronic wrongdoing or an impotence which results in a general loosening of the ties of civilized society, may in America, as elsewhere, ultimately require intervention by some civilized nation, and in the Western Hemisphere, the adherence of the United States to the Monroe doctrine may force the United States, however reluctantly, in flagrant cases of such wrongdoing or impotence, to the exercise of an international police power.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=527}}&lt;/blockquote&gt; [[File:Panama canal cartooon 1903.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|Roosevelt felt American dominance of the region was essential to building the [[Panama Canal]]. He used military dominance to ensure [[separation of Panama from Colombia|Panama successfully revolted]] and achieved independence in 1903.]] Two possible routes for an [[History of the Panama Canal|isthmus canal]] in Central America were under consideration: through [[Nicaragua]] and through Panama, which was then a rebellious district within [[Colombia]]. Roosevelt persuaded Congress to approve the Panamanian alternative, and a treaty was approved, only to be rejected by the Colombian government. When the Panamanians learned of this, a rebellion followed, was supported by Roosevelt, and succeeded. A [[Hay–Bunau-Varilla Treaty|treaty]] with the new Panama government for construction of the canal was reached in 1903.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=482–486}} Roosevelt received criticism for paying the bankrupt Panama Canal Company and the New Panama Canal Company $40,000,000 (equivalent to ${{Inflation|US|.4|1903|r=2}}&amp;nbsp;billion in {{Inflation-year|US}}) for the rights and equipment to build the canal.{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|p=209}} Critics charged that an American investor syndicate divided the large payment among themselves. There was also controversy over whether a French company engineer influenced Roosevelt in choosing the Panama route for the canal over the Nicaragua route. Roosevelt denied charges of corruption. In January 1909, Roosevelt, in an unprecedented move, brought criminal libel charges against the ''[[New York World]]'' and the ''[[Indianapolis News]]'' known as the &quot;Roosevelt-Panama Libel Cases&quot;.{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|pp=209–210}} Both cases were dismissed by U.S. District Courts, and on January 3, 1911, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the lower courts' rulings.{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|pp=213–214}} Historians are sharply critical of Roosevelt's criminal prosecutions of the newspapers but are divided on whether actual corruption took place.{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|p=215}} In 1906, following a disputed election, an insurrection ensued in Cuba; Roosevelt sent Taft, the Secretary of War, to monitor the situation; he was convinced that he had the authority to unilaterally authorize Taft to deploy Marines, if necessary, without congressional approval.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=570}} Examining the work of numerous scholars, Ricard reports that: &lt;blockquote&gt;The most striking evolution in the twenty-first-century historiography of Theodore Roosevelt is the switch from a partial arraignment of the imperialist to a quasi-unanimous celebration of the master diplomatist.... [Recent works] have underlined cogently Roosevelt's exceptional statesmanship in the construction of the nascent twentieth-century &quot;special relationship&quot;. ...The twenty-sixth president's reputation as a brilliant diplomatist and real politician has undeniably reached new heights in the twenty-first century...yet, his Philippine policy still prompts criticism.{{sfn|Ricard|2014}}&lt;/blockquote&gt; On November 6, 1906, Roosevelt was the first president to depart the continental United States on an official diplomatic trip. Roosevelt made a 17-day trip to Panama and Puerto Rico.&lt;ref name=&quot;Forslund&quot;&gt;{{cite web |last1=Forslund |first1=Catherine |title=&quot;Off for the Ditch&quot; - Theodore and Edith Roosevelt Visit Panama in 1906 |url=https://www.whitehousehistory.org/off-for-the-ditch |publisher=[[White House Historical Association]] |access-date=January 14, 2024 |date=2010}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title=Presidential and Secretaries Travels Abroad - Theodore Roosevelt |url=https://history.state.gov/departmenthistory/travels/president/roosevelt-theodore |publisher=Office of the Historian, Foreign Service Institute, [[United States Department of State]] |access-date=January 14, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |last1=Thomas |first1=Heather |title=Theodore Roosevelt: A President of &quot;Firsts&quot; |url=https://blogs.loc.gov/headlinesandheroes/2020/06/theodore-roosevelt-a-president-of-firsts/ |access-date=January 14, 2024 |date=June 4, 2020 |quote=The first president to leave the country during his time in office—On November 9, 1906, Roosevelt embarks from the Chesapeake Bay aboard the U.S.S. Louisiana to inspect the construction of the Panama Canal,}}&lt;/ref&gt; He visited the Panama Canal worksite and attended diplomatic receptions in both Panama and Puerto Rico.&lt;ref name=&quot;Forslund&quot;/&gt; ===Media=== [[File:Go Away Little Man Charles Green Bush.jpg|thumb|A 1903 cartoon, &quot;Go Away, Little Man, and Don't Bother Me&quot;, depicting Roosevelt intimidating [[Colombia]] to acquire the [[Panama Canal Zone]]]] Building on McKinley's effective use of the press, Roosevelt made the White House the center of news every day, providing interviews and photo opportunities. After noticing the reporters huddled outside the White House in the rain one day, he gave them their own room inside, effectively inventing the presidential [[press briefing]]. The grateful press, with unprecedented access to the White House, rewarded Roosevelt with ample coverage.&lt;ref name=&quot;american chronicle&quot;&gt;{{Cite news|url=http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/6883 |publisher=American Chronicle |date=March 15, 2006 |title=Happy Anniversary to the first scheduled presidential press conference—93 years young! |first=Robert |last=Rouse |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080913094418/http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/6883 |archive-date=September 13, 2008}}&lt;/ref&gt; Aside from the Roosevelt-Panama Libel Cases, Roosevelt normally enjoyed very close relationships with the press. While out of office, he made a living as a writer and magazine editor. He loved talking with intellectuals, authors, and writers. He drew the line, however, at exposé-oriented scandal-mongering journalists who, during his term, sent magazine subscriptions soaring by their attacks on corrupt politicians, mayors, and corporations. Roosevelt himself was not usually a target, but a speech of his from 1906 coined the term &quot;[[muckraker]]&quot; for unscrupulous journalists making wild charges.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book| first1 = Arthur| last1 = Weinberg| first2 = Lila Shaffer| last2 = Weinberg| title = The Muckrakers| url = https://books.google.com/books?id=HXMFrIZ68gwC&amp;pg=PA59| year = 1961| publisher = University of Illinois Press| pages = 58–66| isbn = 978-0-252-06986-4| access-date = October 17, 2015| archive-date = April 27, 2016| archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20160427212030/https://books.google.com/books?id=HXMFrIZ68gwC&amp;pg=PA59| url-status = live}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Election of 1904=== {{Main |1904 United States presidential election}} [[File:ElectoralCollege1904.svg|thumb|upright=1.4|Electoral College results of the 1904 election]] With the waning of Thomas Platt's power, Roosevelt faced little effective opposition for the 1904 nomination.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=437–438}} In deference to [[Mark Hanna]]'s conservative loyalists, Roosevelt at first offered the party chairmanship to [[Cornelius Bliss]], but he declined. Roosevelt turned to his own man, [[George B. Cortelyou]] of New York, the first Secretary of Commerce and Labor. To buttress his hold on the party's nomination, Roosevelt made it clear that anyone opposing Cortelyou would be considered opposing the President.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=501–503}} The President secured his own nomination, but his preferred vice-presidential running mate, [[Robert R. Hitt]], was not nominated.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=504}} Senator [[Charles W. Fairbanks|Charles Warren Fairbanks]] of Indiana, a favorite of conservatives, gained the nomination.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=437–438}} While Roosevelt followed the tradition of incumbents in not actively campaigning on the stump, he sought to control the campaign's message through specific instructions to Cortelyou. He also attempted to manage the press's release of White House statements by forming the [[Ananias Club]]. Any journalist who repeated a statement made by the president without approval was penalized by restriction of further access.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=507}} The Democratic Party's nominee in 1904 was [[Alton B. Parker|Alton Brooks Parker]]. Democratic newspapers charged that Republicans were extorting large campaign contributions from corporations, putting ultimate responsibility on Roosevelt himself.{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|pp=215–216}} Roosevelt denied corruption while at the same time ordering Cortelyou to return $100,000 (equivalent to ${{Inflation|US|.1|1904|r=1}}&amp;nbsp;million in {{Inflation-year|US}}) of a campaign contribution from [[Standard Oil]].{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|p=216}} Parker said that Roosevelt was accepting corporate donations to keep damaging information from the [[Bureau of Corporations]] from going public.{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|p=216}} Roosevelt strongly denied Parker's charge and responded that he would &quot;go into the Presidency unhampered by any pledge, promise, or understanding of any kind, sort, or description...&quot;.{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|pp=216–217}} Allegations from Parker and the Democrats, however, had little impact on the election, as Roosevelt promised to give every American a &quot;[[Square Deal|square deal]]&quot;.{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|pp=216–217}} Roosevelt won 56% of the popular vote to Parker's 38%, and won the [[Electoral College (United States)|Electoral College]] vote 336 to 140. Before his [[Second inauguration of Theodore Roosevelt|inauguration ceremony]], Roosevelt declared that he would not serve another term.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=513–514}} Democrats would continue to charge Roosevelt and the Republicans of being influenced by corporate donations.{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|pp=217–218}} ===Second term=== As his second term progressed, Roosevelt moved to the left of his Republican Party base and called for a series of reforms, most of which Congress failed to pass.{{Sfn|Gould|2012|p=2}}{{Failed verification|date=August 2024|talk=&quot;promoted policies to the left&quot;|reason=the cited page 2 content does not support this sentence}} Roosevelt's influence waned as he approached the end of his second term, as his promise to forego a third term made him a [[Lame duck (politics)|lame duck]] and his concentration of power provoked a backlash from many Congressmen.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=463–464}} He sought a national [[Incorporation (business)|incorporation]] law, called for a federal [[Income tax in the United States|income tax]] (despite the Supreme Court's ruling in ''[[Pollock v. Farmers' Loan &amp; Trust Co.]]''), and an [[Estate tax in the United States|inheritance tax]]. Roosevelt called for limits on the use of court injunctions against labor unions during strikes; injunctions were a powerful weapon that mostly helped business. He wanted an employee liability law for industrial injuries (pre-empting state laws) and an [[Eight-hour day|eight-hour work day]] for federal employees. In other areas, he also sought a [[postal savings system]] (to provide competition for local banks), and he asked for campaign reform laws.{{sfn|Ricard|2011|pp=160–166}} The election of 1904 continued to be a source of contention between Republicans and Democrats. A Congressional investigation in 1905 revealed that corporate executives donated tens of thousands of dollars in 1904 to the [[Republican National Committee]]. In 1908, a month before the general presidential election, Governor [[Charles N. Haskell]] of Oklahoma, former Democratic Treasurer, said that Senators beholden to Standard Oil lobbied Roosevelt, in the summer of 1904, to authorize the leasing of Indian oil lands by Standard Oil subsidiaries. He said Roosevelt overruled his [[United States Secretary of Interior|Secretary of the Interior]] [[Ethan A. Hitchcock (Interior)|Ethan A. Hitchcock]] and granted a pipeline franchise to run through the [[Osage Nation|Osage lands]] to the Prairie Oil and Gas Company. The New York ''Sun'' made a similar accusation and said that Standard Oil, a refinery that financially benefited from the pipeline, had contributed $150,000 to the Republicans in 1904 (equivalent to ${{Inflation|US|.15|1904|r=1}}&amp;nbsp;million in {{Inflation-year|US}}) after Roosevelt's alleged reversal allowing the pipeline franchise. Roosevelt branded Haskell's allegation as &quot;a lie, pure and simple&quot;.{{Sfn|Chambers|1974|p=219}} ====Rhetoric of righteousness==== Roosevelt's rhetoric was characterized by an intense moralism of personal righteousness.&lt;ref&gt;Leroy G. Dorsey, &quot;Preaching Morality in Modern America: Theodore Roosevelt's Rhetorical Progressivism.&quot; in ''Rhetoric and Reform in the Progressive Era, A Rhetorical History of the United States: Significant Moments in American Public Discourse'', ed. J. Michael Hogan, (Michigan State University Press, 2003), vol 6 pp 49–83.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Joshua D. Hawley, ''Theodore Roosevelt: Preacher of Righteousness'' (2008), p. xvii. [https://www.amazon.com/Theodore-Roosevelt-Joshua-David-Hawley/dp/0300120109 excerpt]. [[Josh Hawley]] in 2019 became a Republican senator with intense moralistic rhetoric.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;See also ''The Independent'' (February 6, 1908) [https://books.google.com/books?id=RjAPAQAAIAAJ&amp;dq=%22justified+by+the+advocacy+of+a+system+of+morality%22&amp;pg=PA275 p. 274 online]&lt;/ref&gt; The tone was typified by his denunciation of &quot;predatory wealth&quot; in a message he sent Congress in January 1908 calling for passage of new labor laws: &lt;blockquote&gt;Predatory wealth--of the wealth accumulated on a giant scale by all forms of iniquity, ranging from the oppression of wageworkers to unfair and unwholesome methods of crushing out competition, and to defrauding the public by stock jobbing and the manipulation of securities. Certain wealthy men of this stamp, whose conduct should be abhorrent to every man of ordinarily decent conscience, and who commit the hideous wrong of teaching our young men that phenomenal business success must ordinarily be based on dishonesty, have during the last few months made it apparent that they have banded together to work for a reaction. Their endeavor is to overthrow and discredit all who honestly administer the law, to prevent any additional legislation which would check and restrain them, and to secure if possible a freedom from all restraint which will permit every unscrupulous wrongdoer to do what he wishes unchecked provided he has enough money....The methods by which the Standard Oil people and those engaged in the other combinations of which I have spoken above have achieved great fortunes can only be justified by the advocacy of a system of morality which would also justify every form of criminality on the part of a labor union, and every form of violence, corruption, and fraud, from murder to bribery and ballot box stuffing in politics.&lt;ref&gt;Roosevelt, &quot;Special message to Congress, January 31, 1908,&quot; in {{harv|Morison|1952|loc=vol 5 pp. 1580, 1587}}; online version at [https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/message-congress-workers-compensation UC Santa Barbara, &quot;The American Presidency Project&quot;]&lt;/ref&gt; &lt;/blockquote&gt; ==Post-presidency (1909–1919)== ===Election of 1908=== {{Main|1908 United States presidential election}} Roosevelt enjoyed being president but believed limited terms provided a check against dictatorship. He decided to honor his 1904 pledge not to run for a third term. Though he favored Secretary of State [[Elihu Root]] as his successor, Root's ill health made him unsuitable. New York Governor [[Charles Evans Hughes]] was a strong candidate and shared Roosevelt's progressivism, but Roosevelt considered him too independent. He settled on his Secretary of War, [[William Howard Taft]], who had been his friend since 1890 and consistently supported Roosevelt's policies.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=483–485}} Roosevelt was determined to install the successor of his choice, and wrote to Taft: &quot;Dear Will: Do you want any action about those federal officials? I will break their necks with the utmost cheerfulness if you say the word!&quot; Just weeks later, he branded as &quot;false and malicious&quot; the charge he was using the offices at his disposal to favor Taft.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=626}} At the 1908 Republican convention, many chanted &quot;four years more&quot; of a Roosevelt presidency, but Taft won the nomination after Henry Cabot Lodge made it clear Roosevelt was not interested.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=488–489}} In the 1908 election, Taft easily defeated Democratic nominee [[William Jennings Bryan]]. Taft promoted progressivism emphasizing the rule of law; he preferred that judges, rather than politicians, make decisions about fairness. However, Taft proved to be a less adroit politician than Roosevelt, lacking the energy, personal magnetism, and public support that made Roosevelt so formidable. When Roosevelt realized lowering the tariff would create severe tensions inside the Republican Party, he stopped talking about it. Taft, ignoring the risks, tackled the tariff boldly, resulting in the [[Payne-Aldrich Tariff]] of 1909, which alienated reformers on all sides. While the crisis was building inside the Party, Roosevelt was touring Africa and Europe, allowing Taft space.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |jstor= 1902605 |title= William Howard Taft and the Payne-Aldrich Tariff |journal= The Mississippi Valley Historical Review|volume= 50 |issue= 3 |pages= 424–442 |last1= Solvick |first1= Stanley D. |year= 1963 |doi= 10.2307/1902605}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Africa and Europe (1909–1910)=== [[File:Roosevelt safari elephant.jpg|thumb|Roosevelt standing next to the elephant he shot on a safari in [[Africa]]]] In March 1909, the ex-president left for the [[Smithsonian-Roosevelt African Expedition]].&lt;ref name=&quot;Science1908&quot;&gt;{{cite journal|journal=Science|date= December 18, 1908 | volume = 28 | issue = 729|pages=876–877|jstor=1635075|doi= 10.1126/science.28.729.876| title= President Roosevelt's African Trip | pmid = 17743798|bibcode= 1908Sci....28..876. }}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt's party landed in [[Mombasa]] in [[British East Africa|East Africa]] and traveled to the [[Belgian Congo]] before following the Nile River to [[Khartoum]] in modern [[Sudan]]. Well-financed by [[Andrew Carnegie]] and by his own writings, Roosevelt's party hunted for specimens for the [[Smithsonian Institution]] and [[American Museum of Natural History]].&lt;ref name=&quot;SIA&quot;&gt;{{cite web|title= Roosevelt African Expedition Collects for SI|url= http://siarchives.si.edu/collections/siris_sic_193|publisher= [[Smithsonian Institution Archives]]|access-date= April 10, 2012|archive-date= December 10, 2012|archive-url= https://archive.today/20121210103131/http://siarchives.si.edu/collections/siris_sic_193|url-status= live}}&lt;/ref&gt; The group, led by hunter-tracker R.J. Cunninghame, included scientists from the Smithsonian, and was joined by [[Frederick Selous]], famous big game hunter and explorer. Participants included [[Kermit Roosevelt]], [[Edgar Alexander Mearns]], [[Edmund Heller]], and [[John Alden Loring]].&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |first1=George A. |last1=Cevasco |first2=Richard P. |last2=Harmond |name-list-style=amp |title=Modern American Environmentalists: A Biographical Encyclopedia |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=mTSIPaCr2DYC&amp;pg=PA444 |year=2009 |publisher=JHU Press |page=444 |isbn=978-0-8018-9524-1 |access-date=October 17, 2015 |archive-date=November 16, 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20151116092353/https://books.google.com/books?id=mTSIPaCr2DYC&amp;pg=PA444 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The team killed or trapped 11,400 animals,&lt;ref name=&quot;SIA&quot; /&gt; from insects and moles to hippopotamuses and elephants. The 1,000 large animals included 512 [[Big-game hunting|big game]] animals, including six rare [[White rhinoceros|white rhinos]]. Tons of salted carcasses and skins were shipped to Washington; it took years to mount them all. Regarding the large number taken, Roosevelt said, &quot;I can be condemned only if the existence of the [[National Museum of Natural History|National Museum]], the American Museum of Natural History, and all similar zoological institutions are to be condemned&quot;.{{Sfn|O'Toole|2005|p=67}} He wrote a detailed account of the trip in ''African Game Trails''.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |url=https://archive.org/details/africangametrail01roos |title=African Game Trails | first =Theodore |last=Roosevelt |year=1910|publisher=New York, C. Scribner's sons }}&lt;/ref&gt; After his safari, Roosevelt traveled north to embark on a tour of Europe. Stopping first in Egypt, he commented favorably on British rule, stating Egypt was not yet ready for independence.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=505}} He refused a meeting with the [[Pope Pius X|Pope]] due to a dispute over a group of [[Methodists]] active in Rome. He met with Emperor [[Franz Joseph]] of [[Austria-Hungary]], Kaiser [[Wilhelm II]] of Germany, King [[George V]] of Great Britain, and other leaders. In Oslo, Roosevelt delivered a speech calling for limitations on naval armaments, a strengthening of the [[Permanent Court of Arbitration]], and the creation of a &quot;League of Peace&quot; among the world powers.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=505–509}} He delivered the [[Romanes Lecture]] at Oxford, where he denounced those who sought parallels between the evolution of animal life and the development of society.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=511}} Though Roosevelt attempted to avoid domestic politics, he quietly met with [[Gifford Pinchot]], who related his disappointment with the [[Taft Administration]].{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=506–507}} Pinchot had been forced to resign as head of the forest service after clashing with Taft's Interior Secretary, [[Richard Ballinger]]. Roosevelt returned to the U.S. in June 1910.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=503, 511}} Four months later, Roosevelt became the first U.S. president to fly in a plane, staying aloft for 4 minutes in a [[Wright brothers]]-designed craft.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=https://airandspace.si.edu/multimedia-gallery/si-93-9672jpg |title=Theodore Roosevelt – First Presidential Flight, 1910 |website=National Air and Space Museum |date=November 3, 2016 |access-date=June 17, 2022 |archive-date=May 24, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210524142502/https://airandspace.si.edu/multimedia-gallery/si-93-9672jpg |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt relied on [[Andrew Carnegie]] for financing his expedition. In return, Carnegie asked the ex-president to mediate the growing conflict between the cousins who ruled Britain and Germany. Roosevelt started to, but the scheme collapsed when [[King Edward VII]] suddenly died. [[David Nasaw]] argues Roosevelt systematically deceived and manipulated Carnegie and held the elderly man in contempt.&lt;ref&gt;David Nasaw, ''Carnegie'' (2006) pp. 650–652, 729–738.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |first=Richard Jr. |last=Ernsberger |title=A Fool for Peace |journal=[[The Journal of American History|American History]] |date=October 2018 |volume=53 |issue=4 |postscript=none}}; an interview with Nasaw.&lt;/ref&gt; ===Republican Party schism=== Roosevelt had attempted to refashion Taft into a copy of himself, but recoiled as Taft began to display his individuality. He was offended on election night when Taft indicated his success had been possible not just through Roosevelt, but also Taft's half-brother [[Charles Phelps Taft|Charles P. Taft]]. Roosevelt was further alienated when Taft did not consult him about cabinet appointments.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|pp=665–666}} Roosevelt and other progressives were ideologically dissatisfied over Taft's conservation policies and his handling of the tariff, when he concentrated power with conservative party leaders in Congress.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=502–503}} Others have argued that Taft abided by the goals and procedures of the &quot;[[Square Deal]]&quot; promoted by Roosevelt in his first term. The problem was Roosevelt and the more radical progressives had moved on to more aggressive goals, such as curbing the judiciary, which Taft rejected.&lt;ref&gt;Stanley D. Solvick, &quot;The Conservative as Progressive: William Howard Taft and the Politics of the Square Deal&quot; ''Northwest Ohio Quarterly'' (1967) 39#3 pp. 38–48.&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt urged progressives to take control of the Republican Party, and to avoid splitting it in a way that would hand the presidency to the Democrats in 1912. To that end, Roosevelt publicly expressed optimism about the Taft Administration after meeting with the president in June 1910.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=512–513}} ==== Dispute over court power ==== Roosevelt gave speeches in the West in the late summer and early fall of 1910 in which he severely criticized the nation's judiciary. Roosevelt not only attacked the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court's]] 1905 decision in ''[[Lochner v. New York]]'', he accused federal courts of undermining democracy, branding the suspect jurists &quot;fossilized judges,&quot; and compared their tendency to strike down progressive reform legislation, to Justice [[Roger B. Taney]]'s ruling in ''[[Dred Scott v. Sandford]]'' (1857). To ensure the constitution served the public interests, Roosevelt joined other progressives in calling for the &quot;judicial recall,&quot; which would enable popular majorities to remove judges from office and reverse unpopular judicial decisions. This attack horrified Taft, who, though he privately agreed that ''Lochner'' and other decisions had been poorly decided, was an adamant believer in judicial authority preserving constitutional government. His horror was shared with other prominent members of the elite legal community, and solidified in Taft's mind that Roosevelt must not be permitted to regain the presidency.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |last=Istre |first=Logan Stagg |date=2021 |title=Bench over Ballot: The Fight for Judicial Supremacy and the New Constitutional Politics, 1910–1916 |url=https://www.cambridge.org/core/product/identifier/S1537781420000079/type/journal_article |journal=The Journal of the Gilded Age and Progressive Era |volume=20 |issue=1 |pages=2–23 |doi=10.1017/S1537781420000079 |issn=1537-7814}}&lt;/ref&gt; ==== Roosevelt's &quot;New Nationalism&quot; ==== [[File:TR smiling in automobile.tif|thumb|Roosevelt after leaving office in October 1910]] [[File:Theodore Roosevelt and Archibald Hoxsey (1910).jpg|thumb|Roosevelt and pilot [[Archibald Hoxsey]] in [[St. Louis]] in October 1910]] In August 1910, Roosevelt escalated the rivalry with a speech at [[Osawatomie, Kansas]], which was the most radical of his career. It marked his public break with Taft and conservative Republicans. Advocating a program he called the &quot;[[New Nationalism (Theodore Roosevelt)|New Nationalism]]&quot;, Roosevelt emphasized the priority of labor over capital interests and the need to control corporate creation and combination. He called for a ban on corporate political contributions.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=675}} Returning to New York, Roosevelt began a battle to take control of the state Republican party from [[William Barnes Jr.]]. Taft had pledged his support to Roosevelt in this endeavor, and Roosevelt was outraged when Taft's support failed to materialize at the 1910 state convention.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=515–516}} Roosevelt campaigned for the Republicans in the [[1910 United States elections|1910 elections]], in which the Democrats gained control of the House for the first time since 1892. Among the newly elected Democrats was senator [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]], who argued he represented his distant cousin's policies better than his Republican opponent.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=517}} The Republican progressives interpreted the defeats as a compelling argument for reorganization of the party in 1911.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=683}} Senator [[Robert M. La Follette]] joined with Pinchot, William White, and California Governor [[Hiram Johnson]] to create the National Progressive Republican League; their objectives were to defeat the power of political bossism at the state level and replace Taft at the national level.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=518}} Despite his skepticism of the league, Roosevelt expressed general support for progressive principles. Between January and April 1911, Roosevelt wrote articles for ''The Outlook'', defending what he called &quot;the great movement of our day, the progressive nationalist movement against special privilege, and in favor of an honest and efficient political and [[industrial democracy]]&quot;.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=684}} With Roosevelt apparently uninterested in running in 1912, La Follette declared his own candidacy in June 1911.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=518}} Roosevelt continually criticized Taft after the 1910 elections, and the break between them became final after the Justice Department filed an [[antitrust]] lawsuit against [[US Steel]] in September 1911; Roosevelt was humiliated because he had personally approved an acquisition the Justice Department was now challenging. However, Roosevelt was still unwilling to run against Taft in 1912; he hoped to run in 1916 against whichever Democrat beat Taft in 1912.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=519}} ====Battling Taft over arbitration treaties==== Taft was world leader for arbitration as a guarantee of world peace. In 1911 he and Secretary of State [[Philander C. Knox]] negotiated treaties with Britain and France providing that differences be arbitrated. Disputes had to be submitted to the [[Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907#Hague Convention of 1907|Hague Court]] or another tribunal. These were signed in August 1911, but had to be ratified by a two-thirds vote of the Senate. Neither Taft nor Knox consulted with Senate leaders during negotiations. By then many Republicans were opposed to Taft, and the president felt lobbying too hard for the treaties might cause their defeat. He made speeches supporting the treaties in October, but the Senate added amendments Taft could not accept, killing them.&lt;ref&gt;[[David H. Burton]], ''William Howard Taft: Confident Peacemaker'' (2004) pp. 82–83.&lt;/ref&gt; Arbitration revealed a dispute among American progressives. One faction, led by Taft looked to it as the best alternative to warfare. Taft was a constitutional lawyer, understanding the legal issues.&lt;ref&gt;John E. Noyes, &quot;William Howard Taft and the Taft Arbitration Treaties.&quot; ''Villanova Law Review'' 56 (2011): 535+ [https://digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&amp;context=vlr online] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200726081308/https://digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&amp;context=vlr |date=July 26, 2020 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Taft's base was the conservative business community that supported peace movements before 1914. However, he failed to mobilize them. The businessmen believed economic rivalries were the cause of war, and that trade led to an interdependent world that would make war expensive and useless.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |jstor = 1894200|title = Taft, Roosevelt, and the Arbitration Treaties of 1911|journal = The Journal of American History|volume = 53|issue = 2|pages = 279–298|last1 = Campbell|first1 = John P.|year = 1966|doi = 10.2307/1894200}}&lt;/ref&gt; However, an opposing faction, led by Roosevelt, ridiculed arbitration as foolhardy idealism, and insisted on the realism of war as the only solution to serious international disputes. Roosevelt worked with close friend Senator Henry Cabot Lodge to impose those amendments that ruined the treaties. Roosevelt was acting to sabotage Taft's campaign promises.&lt;ref&gt;E. James Hindman, &quot;The General Arbitration Treaties of William Howard Taft.&quot; ''Historian'' 36.1 (1973): 52–65. [https://www.jstor.org/stable/24443896 online] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210308151007/https://www.jstor.org/stable/24443896 |date=March 8, 2021 }}&lt;/ref&gt; At a deeper level, Roosevelt truly believed arbitration was a naïve solution and great issues had to be decided by war. The Rooseveltian approach incorporated a near-mystical faith of the ennobling nature of war. It endorsed jingoistic nationalism as opposed to the businessmen's calculation of profit and national interest.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|first=Melvin I.|last=Urofsky|title=The American Presidents: Critical Essays|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=L5WNAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA323|year=2004|publisher=Routledge|page=323|isbn=978-1-135-58137-4|access-date=May 26, 2019|archive-date=August 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210814210056/https://books.google.com/books?id=L5WNAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA323|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Campbell, 1996&lt;/ref&gt; ===Election of 1912=== {{Main|1912 United States presidential election}} ====Republican primaries and convention==== [[File:For Auld Lang Syne - Leonard Raven-Hill.jpg|thumb|''Punch'' in May 1912, depicting no-holds-barred fight between [[Howard Taft]] and Roosevelt]] In November 1911, a group of Ohio Republicans endorsed Roosevelt for the party's nomination for president. Roosevelt conspicuously declined to refuse a nomination. Soon thereafter, Roosevelt said, &quot;I am really sorry for Taft... I am sure he means well, but he means well feebly, and he does not know how! He is utterly unfit for leadership and this is a time when we need leadership.&quot; In January 1912, Roosevelt declared &quot;if the people make a draft on me I shall not decline to serve&quot;.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=698}} Roosevelt spoke before the Constitutional Convention in Ohio, identifying as a progressive and endorsing progressive reforms—even endorsing popular review of state judicial decisions.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=703}} In reaction to Roosevelt's proposals Taft said, &quot;Such extremists are not progressives—they are political emotionalists or neurotics&quot;.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=709}} Roosevelt began to envision himself as the savior of the party from defeat in the upcoming election. In February 1912 in [[Boston]], Roosevelt said, &quot;I will accept the nomination for president if it is tendered to me&quot;.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=705}}&lt;ref name=&quot;gloriousr&quot;&gt;{{cite book | title = The Glorious Burden: The American Presidency | url = https://archive.org/details/gloriousburden00lora | url-access = registration | last=Lorant |first= Stefan |year= 1968 |page= [https://archive.org/details/gloriousburden00lora/page/512 512] | publisher = Harper &amp; Row | isbn = 0-06-012686-8}}&lt;/ref&gt; Elihu Root and Henry Cabot Lodge thought division would lead to defeat in the election, while Taft believed he would be defeated either in the primary or general election.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=706}} The 1912 primaries represented the first extensive use of the [[United States presidential primary|presidential primary]], a reform achievement of the progressive movement.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last=Norrander|first=Barbara|title=The Imperfect Primary: Oddities, Biases, and Strengths of U.S. Presidential Nomination Politics|date=2015|publisher=Routledge|page=14|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KbSgBgAAQBAJ|isbn=978-1-317-55332-8|access-date=October 6, 2017|archive-date=August 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210814074817/https://books.google.com/books?id=KbSgBgAAQBAJ|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[Republican Party presidential primaries, 1912|Republican primaries]] in the South, where party regulars dominated, went for Taft, as did New York, Indiana, Michigan, Kentucky, and Massachusetts. Meanwhile, Roosevelt won in Illinois, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota, California, Maryland, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.&lt;ref&gt;Norman M. Wilensky, ''Conservatives in the Progressive Era: The Taft Republicans of 1912'' (1965) pp. 61–62.&lt;/ref&gt; At the [[1912 Republican National Convention]] in Chicago, Taft won the nomination on the first ballot.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=524–526}} According to [[Lewis L. Gould]], in 1912 &lt;blockquote&gt; Roosevelt saw Taft as the agent of &quot;the forces of reaction and of political crookedness&quot;.... Roosevelt had become the most dangerous man in American history, said Taft, &quot;because of his hold upon the less intelligent voters and the discontented.&quot; The Republican National Committee, dominated by the Taft forces, awarded 235 delegates to the president and 19 to Roosevelt...Roosevelt believed himself entitled to 72 delegates from Arizona, California, Texas and Washington that had been given to Taft. Firm in his conviction that the nomination was being stolen from him, Roosevelt ....told cheering supporters that there was &quot;a great moral issue&quot; at stake and he should have &quot;sixty to eighty lawfully elected delegates&quot; added to his total....Roosevelt ended his speech declaring: &quot;Fearless of the future; unheeding of our individual fates; with unflinching hearts and undimmed eyes; we stand at Armageddon, and we battle for the Lord!&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine|first=Lewis L. |last=Gould|title=1912 Republican Convention: Return of the Rough Rider|magazine=Smithsonian Magazine'|date=August 2008 |url=https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/1912-republican-convention-855607/}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt; ====Progressive Party==== {{See also|New Nationalism (Theodore Roosevelt)|Bull Moose Party}} [[File:Perkins-pinchot.JPG|thumb|A 1912 cartoon depicting George Perkins (left, with checkbook symbolizing control of money) and [[Amos Pinchot]] (wielding an endorsement from Roosevelt campaign manager, Senator [[Joseph M. Dixon]]) in battle for Progressive Party control]] Once his defeat appeared probable, Roosevelt announced he would &quot;accept the progressive nomination on a progressive platform and I shall fight to the end, win or lose&quot;. Roosevelt prophetically said, &quot;My feeling is that the Democrats will probably win if they nominate a progressive&quot;.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=717}} Roosevelt left the Republican Party and created the Progressive Party.{{sfn|Miller|1992|p=526}}{{Sfn|Gould|2008a|pp=127–128}} Leadership of the new party included a range of reformers. Jane Addams campaigned vigorously for the party as a breakthrough in social reform.&lt;ref&gt;Allen F. Davis, ''American Heroine: The Life and Legend of Jane Addams'' (1973) pp. 185–197.&lt;/ref&gt; [[Gifford Pinchot]] represented environmentalists and anti-trust crusaders. Publisher [[Frank Munsey]] provided cash&lt;ref&gt;Marena Cole, &quot;A Progressive Conservative&quot;: The Roles of George Perkins and Frank Munsey in the Progressive Party Campaign of 1912&quot; (PhD dissertation, Tufts University ProQuest Dissertations Publishing, 2017. 10273522).&lt;/ref&gt; and [[George Walbridge Perkins|George W. Perkins]], a Wall Street financier came from the [[efficiency movement]]. He handled the new party's finances efficiently but was distrusted by many reformers.&lt;ref&gt;John A. Garraty, ''Right-Hand Man: The Life of George W. Perkins'' (1960) pp. 264–284.&lt;/ref&gt; Governor [[Hiram Johnson]] controlled the California party, forcing out the Taft supporters. He was nominated as Roosevelt's running mate.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal | doi=10.2307/3636471 | jstor=3636471 | last1=Lincoln | first1=A. | title=Theodore Roosevelt, Hiram Johnson, and the Vice-Presidential Nomination of 1912 | journal=Pacific Historical Review | year=1959 | volume=28 | issue=3 | pages=267–283 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt's platform echoed his radical 1907–1908 proposals, calling for vigorous government intervention to protect the people from selfish interests: {{blockquote|To destroy this invisible Government, to dissolve the [[wikt:unholy alliance|unholy alliance]] between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news | first = Patricia | last = O'Toole |title=The War of 1912 |date=June 25, 2006 |work=[[Time Magazine]] | url = http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1207791-2,00.html | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20060703102342/http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1207791-2,00.html | archive-date = July 3, 2006 |access-date=August 8, 2008}}&lt;/ref&gt;{{Sfn|Roosevelt|1913|loc = [http://www.bartleby.com/55/15b.html XV. The Peace of Righteousness, Appendix B]}} This country belongs to the people. Its resources, its business, its laws, its institutions, should be utilized, maintained, or altered in whatever manner will best promote the general interest. This assertion is explicit... Mr. Wilson must know that every monopoly in the United States opposes the Progressive party... I challenge him... to name the monopoly that did support the Progressive party, whether... the Sugar Trust, the US Steel Trust, the Harvester Trust, the Standard Oil Trust, the Tobacco Trust, or any other... Ours was the only program to which they objected, and they supported either Mr. Wilson or Mr. Taft.{{Sfn|Thayer|1919|loc=Chapter XXII|pp=25–31}}}} Though many Progressive party activists in the North opposed the steady loss of civil rights for blacks, Roosevelt ran a &quot;[[Lily-white movement|lily-white]]&quot; campaign in the South. Rival all-white and all-black delegations from southern states arrived at the Progressive national convention, and Roosevelt decided to seat the all-white delegations.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |jstor = 2191208|title = The South and the Progressive Lily White Party of 1912|journal = The Journal of Southern History|volume = 6|issue = 2|pages = 237–247|last1 = Mowry|first1 = George E.|year = 1940|doi = 10.2307/2191208}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |jstor = 2715292|title = The Negro as a Factor in the Campaign of 1912|journal = The Journal of Negro History|volume = 32|issue = 1|pages = 81–99|last1 = Link|first1 = Arthur S.|year = 1947|doi = 10.2307/2715292| s2cid=150222134 }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal |jstor = 23515317|title = Theodore Roosevelt and the South in 1912|journal = The North Carolina Historical Review|volume = 23|issue = 3|pages = 313–324|last1 = Link|first1 = Arthur S.|year = 1946}}&lt;/ref&gt; Nevertheless, he won few votes outside traditional Republican strongholds. Out of 1,100 counties in the South, Roosevelt won two counties in Alabama, one in Arkansas, seven in North Carolina, three in Georgia, 17 in Tennessee, two in Texas, one in Virginia, and none in Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, or South Carolina.&lt;ref&gt;Edgar Eugene Robinson, ''The Presidential Vote 1896–1932'' (1947), pp. 65–127.&lt;/ref&gt; ====Attempted assassination==== {{Main|Attempted assassination of Theodore Roosevelt}} On October 14, 1912, while arriving at a campaign event in [[Milwaukee]], Roosevelt was shot by delusional saloonkeeper [[John Schrank]], who believed the ghost of assassinated president [[William McKinley]] had directed him to kill Roosevelt.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1943/09/17/archives/schrank-who-shot-t-roosevelt-dies-insane-man-had-no-visitors-in-31.html |title=Schrank, Who Shot T. Roosevelt, Dies |date=September 17, 1943 |work=The New York Times |page=23 |access-date=May 6, 2021 |url-access=limited |archive-date=May 6, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210506155913/https://www.nytimes.com/1943/09/17/archives/schrank-who-shot-t-roosevelt-dies-insane-man-had-no-visitors-in-31.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Stan Gores, &quot;The attempted assassination of Teddy Roosevelt.&quot; ''Wisconsin Magazine of History'' (1970) 53#4: 269–277 [https://content.wisconsinhistory.org/digital/collection/wmh/id/25324/rec/1 online] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210126010614/https://content.wisconsinhistory.org/digital/collection/wmh/id/25324/rec/1 |date=January 26, 2021 }}&lt;/ref&gt; The bullet lodged in Roosevelt's chest after penetrating his eyeglass case and passing through a 50-page folded copy of the speech titled &quot;[[s::Progressive Cause Greater Than Any Individual|Progressive Cause Greater Than Any Individual]]&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web | work = Museum | title = Artifacts | url = http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/museum/artifacts/archives/001692.asp | publisher = Wisconsin Historical Society | access-date = September 14, 2010 | archive-date = November 5, 2010 | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20101105085613/http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/museum/artifacts/archives/001692.asp | url-status= live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Schrank was disarmed and captured by Roosevelt's [[Shorthand|stenographer]], [[Elbert E. Martin]] as he attempted to fire a second time, and might have been lynched had Roosevelt not shouted for Schrank to remain unharmed.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|last=Congress|first=United States|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=YnQelRTN9AEC&amp;q=frank+bukovsky+theodore+roosevelt&amp;pg=SL1-PA1146|title=Congressional Record: Proceedings and Debates of the ... Congress|date=1951|publisher=U.S. Government Printing Office|access-date=October 31, 2020|archive-date=August 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210814104934/https://books.google.com/books?id=YnQelRTN9AEC&amp;q=frank+bukovsky+theodore+roosevelt&amp;pg=SL1-PA1146|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt assured the crowd he was all right, then ordered police to take Schrank and make sure no violence was done to him.&lt;ref name=&quot;remey&quot;&gt;{{cite book |first1=Oliver E. |last1=Remey |first2=Henry F. |last2=Cochems |first3=Wheeler P. |last3=Bloodgood |title=The Attempted Assassination of Ex-President Theodore Roosevelt |publisher=The Progressive Publishing Company |year=1912 |page=192 |url=http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/21261 |access-date=March 20, 2018 |archive-date=June 21, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180621170923/http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/21261 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; As an experienced hunter and anatomist, Roosevelt correctly concluded that since he was not coughing blood, the bullet had not reached his lung. He declined to go to hospital immediately and instead delivered a [[s:I have just been shot|90-minute speech]] with blood seeping into his shirt.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url= http://www.doctorzebra.com/prez/z_x26a_g.htm |title= Medical History of American Presidents |publisher= Doctor Zebra |access-date= September 14, 2010 |archive-date= October 20, 2010 |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20101020003715/http://doctorzebra.com/prez/z_x26a_g.htm |url-status= live }}&lt;/ref&gt;{{unreliable source?|date=September 2021}} Only afterwards did he accept medical attention. Probes and an [[x-ray]] showed the bullet had lodged in Roosevelt's chest muscle, but did not penetrate the [[pleura]]. Doctors concluded it would be less dangerous to leave it than attempt to remove it, and Roosevelt carried the bullet in him for the rest of his life.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url=http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/life/timeline.htm |title=Roosevelt Timeline |publisher=Theodore Roosevelt |access-date=September 14, 2010 |archive-date=May 29, 2010 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20100529022345/http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/life/timeline.htm |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Gerard Helferich, ''Theodore Roosevelt and the Assassin: Madness, Vengeance, and the Campaign of 1912'' (2013)&lt;/ref&gt; Taft and Democratic nominee [[Woodrow Wilson]] suspended their campaigning until Roosevelt resumed his. When asked if the shooting would affect his election campaign, he said to the reporter &quot;I'm fit as a bull moose.&quot; The bull moose became a symbol of Roosevelt and the Progressive Party, and it often was referred to as the [[Bull Moose Party]]. He spent two weeks recuperating before returning to campaign. He wrote a friend about the bullet, &quot;I do not mind it any more than if it were in my waistcoat-pocket.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last1=Roosevelt |first1=Theodore |editor1-last=Bishop |editor1-first=Joseph Bucklin |title=The Works of Theodore Roosevelt, Volume 24 - Theodore Roosevelt and His Times Shown in His Own Letters |date=1926 |publisher=[[C. Scribner's Sons]] |page=405 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=rYunAPADRLAC&amp;pg=PA405 |access-date=January 20, 2024}}&lt;/ref&gt; ====Democratic victory==== After the Democrats nominated Governor Woodrow Wilson, Roosevelt did not expect to win the election, as Wilson had compiled a record attractive to progressive Democrats who might have considered voting for Roosevelt.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=529}} Roosevelt still campaigned vigorously, and the election developed into a two-person contest despite Taft's quiet presence. Roosevelt respected Wilson, but they differed on various issues; Wilson opposed federal intervention regarding [[women's suffrage]] or [[child labor]], and attacked Roosevelt's tolerance of large businesses.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=529–530}} Roosevelt won 4.1&amp;nbsp;million votes (27%), compared to Taft's 3.5&amp;nbsp;million (23%) and Wilson's 6.3&amp;nbsp;million (42%). Wilson scored a landslide in the [[Electoral College (United States)|Electoral College]] with 435 electoral votes; Roosevelt 88, and Taft 8. Pennsylvania was the only eastern state won by Roosevelt; in the Midwest, he carried Michigan, Minnesota, and South Dakota; in the West, California, and Washington.{{Sfn|Gould|2008a|p=132}} Roosevelt garnered a [[List of third party performances in United States presidential elections|higher share of the popular vote]] than any other third-party presidential candidate in history and won the most states of any third-party candidate after the Civil War.&lt;ref name=&quot;cnnthirdparty1&quot;&gt;{{cite news|last1=Dexter|first1=Jim|title=How third-party candidates affect elections|url=http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/10/how-third-party-candidates-affect-elections/|access-date=November 7, 2016|publisher=CNN|date=March 10, 2010|archive-date=November 13, 2016|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161113080626/http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/10/how-third-party-candidates-affect-elections/|url-status=dead}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===South American expedition (1913–1914)=== {{Main|Roosevelt–Rondon Scientific Expedition}} [[File:River-doubt-team.jpg|thumb|Left to right (seated): Father John Augustine Zahm, Cândido Rondon, Kermit Roosevelt, Cherrie, Miller, four Brazilians, Roosevelt, Fiala. Only Roosevelt, Kermit, Cherrie, Rondon, and the Brazilians traveled down the River of Doubt.]] In 1907 a friend of Roosevelt's, [[John Augustine Zahm]], invited Roosevelt to help plan a research expedition to South America. To finance it, Roosevelt obtained support from the American Museum of Natural History in return for promising to bring back new animal specimens. Roosevelt's popular book, ''Through the Brazilian Wilderness''&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book | last = Roosevelt | first = Theodore | author-link = Theodore Roosevelt | title = Through the Brazilian Wilderness | url = http://www.s4ulanguages.com/theodore.html | publisher = S4u languages | format = facsimile | edition = 1st | year = 1914 | hdl = 2027/nyp.33433081694915 | hdl-access = free | access-date = February 25, 2010 | archive-date = February 28, 2010 | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20100228180135/http://www.s4ulanguages.com/theodore.html | url-status = live }}&lt;/ref&gt; describes his expedition into the Brazilian jungle in 1913 as a member of the Roosevelt-Rondon Scientific Expedition, co-named after its leader, Brazilian [[Cândido Rondon]]. Once in South America, a more ambitious goal was added: to find the headwaters of the river Duvida and trace it north to the [[Madeira River|Madeira]] and thence to the [[Amazon River]]. Duvida was later renamed [[Roosevelt River]]. Roosevelt's crew consisted of his son [[Kermit Roosevelt|Kermit]], Colonel Rondon, naturalist [[George Kruck Cherrie]], Brazilian Lieutenant João Lira, team physician José Antonio Cajazeira, and 16 skilled paddlers and porters.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite wikisource |title=Through the Brazilian Wilderness |last=Roosevelt |first=Theodore |year=1914 |chapter=The Start }}&lt;/ref&gt; The initial expedition started tenuously on December 9, 1913, at the height of rainy season. The trip down Duvida started on February 27, 1914.{{sfn|Millard|2009|pp=267–270}} Roosevelt suffered a minor leg wound after he jumped in to try to prevent canoes from smashing against the rocks. The flesh wound he received, however, soon gave him [[tropical fever]] that resembled the [[malaria]] he had contracted while in Cuba.&lt;ref name=&quot;oimjjac&quot;&gt;{{Cite book | first = Rudolph | last = Marx | title = The Health of The President: Theodore Roosevelt | publisher = Health guidance | date = October 31, 2011}}&lt;/ref&gt; The infection weakened Roosevelt so greatly that six weeks in, he had to be attended to constantly by the expedition's physician and Kermit. By then, he could not walk because of the infection and an infirmity in the other leg, due to a traffic accident a decade earlier. Roosevelt had chest pains and a fever that soared to {{convert|103|°F|°C|abbr=on}} and made him delirious. Regarding his condition as a threat to others' survival, Roosevelt insisted he be left behind to allow the poorly provisioned expedition to proceed, preparing to commit suicide with [[morphine]]. Only an appeal by his son persuaded him to continue.{{sfn|Millard|2009|pp=267–270}} Despite Roosevelt's continued decline and loss of {{convert|50|lb|kg}}, Rondon reduced the pace for map-making, which required regular stops to fix their position by sun-based survey. Upon Roosevelt's return to New York, friends and family were startled by his physical appearance and fatigue. Roosevelt wrote, perhaps prophetically, to a friend that it had cut his life short by ten years. For the rest of his few remaining years, he would be plagued by flare-ups of malaria and leg inflammations so severe as to require surgery.{{Sfn|Thayer|1919|pp=4–7}} Before Roosevelt had even completed his sea voyage home, critics raised doubts over his claims of exploring and navigating a completely uncharted river over {{convert|625|mi|km}} long. When he had recovered sufficiently, he addressed a standing-room-only convention organized in Washington, by the [[National Geographic Society]] and satisfactorily defended his claims.{{sfn|Millard|2009|pp=267–270}} ===Final years=== {{See also|Roosevelt's World War I volunteers}} [[File:TheodoreRooseveltportrait.jpg|thumb|Roosevelt {{circa}} 1914–1918]] Roosevelt returned to the U.S. in May 1914. Though he was outraged by the [[Presidency of Woodrow Wilson|Wilson Administration]]'s conclusion of a treaty that expressed &quot;sincere regret&quot; for the way in which the U.S. had acquired the [[Panama Canal Zone]], he was impressed by many reforms passed. Roosevelt made campaign appearances for the Progressives, but the [[1914 United States elections|1914 elections]] were a disaster for the fledgling third party.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=539–540}} Roosevelt began to envision another campaign for president, this time with himself at the head of the Republican Party, but conservative party leaders remained opposed to Roosevelt.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=548–549}} In hopes of engineering a joint nomination, the Progressives scheduled the [[1916 Progressive National Convention]] at the same time as the [[1916 Republican National Convention]]. When the Republicans nominated Charles Evans Hughes, Roosevelt declined the Progressive nomination and urged his Progressive followers to support the Republican candidate.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=550–551}} Though Roosevelt had long disliked Hughes, he disliked Wilson even more, and campaigned energetically for the Republican nominee. However, Wilson won the [[1916 United States presidential election|1916 election]] by a narrow margin.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=552–553}} The Progressives disappeared as a party, and Roosevelt and many of his followers re-joined the Republican Party.&lt;ref name=&quot;mmcgeary1&quot;&gt;{{cite journal|last1=McGeary|first1=M. Nelson|title=Gifford Pinchot's Years of Frustration, 1917–1920|journal=The Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography|date=July 1959|volume=83|issue=3|pages=327–342|jstor=20089210}}&lt;/ref&gt; ====World War I==== When the First World War began in 1914, Roosevelt strongly supported the [[Allies of World War I|Allies]] and demanded a harsher policy against Germany, especially regarding submarine warfare. Roosevelt angrily denounced the foreign policy of Wilson, calling it a failure regarding the [[Rape of Belgium|atrocities in Belgium]] and the violations of American rights.{{sfn|Brands|1997|pp=749–751, 806–809}} In 1916, while campaigning for Hughes, Roosevelt repeatedly denounced Irish Americans and German Americans whom he described as unpatriotic; he insisted that one had to be 100% American, not a &quot;[[hyphenated American]]&quot; who juggled multiple loyalties. In March 1917, Congress gave Roosevelt the authority to raise a maximum of four divisions similar to the [[Rough Riders]].{{sfn|Roosevelt|1917|p=347}}&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT-1917-0313&quot;&gt;{{cite news |title=Enroll Westerners for Service in War; Movement to Register Men of That Region Begun at the Rocky Mountain Club. Headed by Major Burnham. John Hays Hammond and Others of Prominence Reported to be Supporting Plan |newspaper=New York Times |date=March 13, 1917 |page=11 |url=https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1917/03/13/98245601.pdf |access-date=June 30, 2013 |archive-date=February 25, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210225031802/https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1917/03/13/98245601.pdf |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; However, President Wilson announced to the press that he would not send Roosevelt and his volunteers to France, but instead an American Expeditionary Force under the command of General [[John J. Pershing]].&lt;ref name=&quot;NYT-1917-0517&quot;&gt;{{cite news |title=Will Not Send Roosevelt; Wilson Not to Avail Himself of Volunteer Authority at Present |newspaper=New York Times |date=May 19, 1917 |issn=0362-4331}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt never forgave Wilson, and published ''The Foes of Our Own Household'', an indictment of the sitting president.{{sfn|Roosevelt|1917}}{{sfn|Brands|1997|pp=781–784}}&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book | last = Cramer | first = CH | title = Newton D. Baker | year = 1961 |pages=110–113}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt's youngest son, Quentin, a pilot with the American forces in France, was killed when shot down behind German lines on July 14, 1918, aged 20. Roosevelt never recovered from his loss.{{sfn|Dalton|2002|p=507}} ====League of Nations==== {{Further|League to Enforce Peace}} Roosevelt was an early supporter of the modern view that there needs to be a global order. In his Nobel prize address of 1910, he said, &quot;it would be a master stroke if those great Powers honestly bent on peace would form a League of Peace, not only to keep the peace among themselves, but to prevent, by force if necessary, its being broken by others.&quot;{{sfn|Pringle|1931|p=519}} It would have executive power such as the [[Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907]] lacked. He called for American participation. When World War I broke out, Roosevelt proposed &quot;a World League for the Peace of Righteousness&quot;, in September 1914, which would preserve sovereignty but limit armaments and require arbitration. He added it should be &quot;solemnly covenanted that if any nations refused to abide by the decisions of such a court, then others draw the sword in behalf of peace and justice.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |author=J. Lee Thompson |title=Never Call Retreat: Theodore Roosevelt and the Great War |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=WQyxAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA33 |year=2014 |pages=32–34 |publisher=Springer |isbn=978-1-137-30653-1 |access-date=January 30, 2019 |archive-date=August 15, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210815041942/https://books.google.com/books?id=WQyxAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA33 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |first=Richard M. |last=Gamble |title=The War for Righteousness: Progressive Christianity, the Great War, and the Rise of the Messianic Nation |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uOJ6CgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT98 |year=2014 |pages=97–98 |publisher=Open Road Media |isbn=978-1-4976-4679-7 |access-date=January 31, 2019 |archive-date=August 13, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210813075543/https://books.google.com/books?id=uOJ6CgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT98 |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1915 he outlined this plan more specifically, urging nations guarantee their entire military force, if necessary, against any nation that refused to carry out arbitration decrees or violated rights of other nations. Though Roosevelt had some concerns about the impact on United States sovereignty, he insisted that such a league would only work if the United States participated as one of the &quot;joint guarantors&quot;.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=562–564}} Roosevelt referred to this plan in a 1918 speech as &quot;the most feasible for...a league of nations&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;William Clinton Olson, &quot; Theodore Roosevelt's Conception of an International League&quot; ''World Affairs Quarterly'' (1959) 29#3 pp. 329–353.&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;Stephen Wertheim, &quot;The league that wasn't: American designs for a legalist-sanctionist league of nations and the intellectual origins of international organization, 1914–1920.&quot; ''Diplomatic History'' 35.5 (2011): 797–836.&lt;/ref&gt; By this time Wilson was strongly hostile to Roosevelt and Lodge and developed his own plans for a different League of Nations. It became reality along Wilson's lines at the [[Paris Peace Conference (1919–1920)|Paris Peace Conference]] in 1919. Roosevelt denounced Wilson's approach but died before it was adopted at Paris. However, Lodge was willing to accept it with serious reservations. In the end, on March 19, 1920, Wilson had Democratic Senators vote against the League with the [[Lodge Reservations]] and the United States never joined the [[League of Nations]].&lt;ref&gt;David Mervin, &quot;[[Henry Cabot Lodge]] and the League of Nations.&quot; ''Journal of American Studies'' 4#2 (1971): 201–214. [https://www.jstor.org/stable/27552941 online] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190130220721/https://www.jstor.org/stable/27552941 |date=January 30, 2019 }}&lt;/ref&gt; ====Final political activities==== [[File:1914 - Theodore Roosevelt on balcony of Hotel Allen.jpg|thumb|Former President Theodore Roosevelt in [[Allentown, Pennsylvania]] in 1914]] Roosevelt's attacks on Wilson helped the Republicans win control of Congress in the midterm elections of 1918. He declined a request from New York Republicans to run for another gubernatorial term, but attacked Wilson's [[Fourteen Points]], calling instead for the unconditional surrender of Germany. Though his health was uncertain, he was seen as a leading contender for the 1920 Republican nomination, but insisted that, &quot;If they take me, they'll have to take me without a single modification of the things that I have always stood for!&quot;{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=559}} He wrote [[William Allen White]], &quot;I wish to do everything in my power to make the Republican Party the Party of sane, constructive radicalism, just as it was under Lincoln.&quot; Accordingly, he told the 1918 state convention of the Maine Republican Party that he stood for old-age pensions, insurance for sickness and unemployment, construction of public housing for low-income families, the reduction of working hours, aid to farmers, and more regulation of large corporations.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|p=559}} While his political profile remained high, Roosevelt's physical condition deteriorated throughout 1918 due to the long-term effects of jungle diseases. He was hospitalized for seven weeks and never fully recovered.{{Sfn|Miller|1992|pp=564–566}} ==Death== [[File:Theodore and Edith Roosevelt Grave.jpg|thumb|Theodore and [[Edith Roosevelt]]'s Grave at Youngs Memorial Cemetery]] On the night of January 5, 1919, Roosevelt suffered breathing problems. After receiving treatment from his physician, George W. Faller, he felt better and went to bed. Roosevelt's last words were either &quot;Please put out that light, James&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;DeathNews&quot;/&gt; or &quot;James, will you please put out the light.&quot;,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|last=Bleyer|first=Bill|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=CCjVDAAAQBAJ&amp;q=amos+married+Annie+Sagamore&amp;pg=PA81|title=Sagamore Hill: Theodore Roosevelt's Summer White House| page=8 |date=October 3, 2016|publisher=Arcadia Publishing|isbn=978-1-62585-707-1}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |title=Roosevelt's &quot;Please Put Out the Light&quot; His Last Words, Says Witness of His End |url=https://www.nytimes.com/1926/08/03/archives/roosevelts-please-put-out-the-light-his-last-words-says-witness-of.html |access-date=September 10, 2024 |newspaper=[[The New York Times]] |date=August 3, 1926 |page=9}}&lt;/ref&gt; said to his family servant [[James E. Amos]]. Between 4:00 and 4:15 the next morning, Roosevelt died at the age of 60 in his sleep at [[Sagamore Hill (house)|Sagamore Hill]] of a [[pulmonary embolism]].&lt;ref name=&quot;DeathNews&quot;&gt;{{cite news |title= Theodore Roosevelt Dies Suddenly at Oyster Bay Home; Nation Shocked, Pays Tribute to Former President; Our Flag on All Seas and in All Lands at Half Mast |url= https://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0106.html |newspaper= The New York Times |date= January 1919 |access-date= February 28, 2017 |archive-date= February 18, 2017 |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20170218090119/http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0106.html |url-status= live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Upon receiving word of his death, his son Archibald telegraphed his siblings: &quot;The old lion is dead.&quot;{{sfn|Dalton|2002|p=507}} Woodrow Wilson's vice president, [[Thomas R. Marshall]], said that &quot;Death had to take Roosevelt sleeping, for if he had been awake, there would have been a fight.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book | last = Manners | first = William | title = TR and Will: A Friendship that Split the Republican Party| publisher = Harcourt, Brace &amp; World | year = 1969}}&lt;/ref&gt; Following a private farewell service in the North Room at Sagamore Hill, a simple funeral was held at [[Christ Episcopal Church in Oyster Bay]].{{sfn|Morris|2010|p=556}} Vice President Thomas R. Marshall, former New York Governor [[Charles Evans Hughes]], Senators [[Warren G. Harding]] and [[Henry Cabot Lodge]], and former President [[William Howard Taft]] were among the mourners.{{sfn|Morris|2010|p=556}} The procession route to [[Youngs Memorial Cemetery]] was lined with spectators and a squad of mounted policemen who had ridden from New York City.{{sfn|Morris|2010|pp=554, 556–557}} Roosevelt was buried on a hillside overlooking Oyster Bay.{{sfn|Morris|2010|pp=554, 557}} ==Writer== {{main|Theodore Roosevelt bibliography}} {{Listen | filename = Roosevelt - Address to the Boys Progressive League.ogg | title = Address to the Boys Progressive League | description = A speech by Roosevelt as a former President }} Roosevelt was a prolific author, writing with passion on subjects ranging from foreign policy to the importance of the national park system. Roosevelt was also an avid reader of poetry. Poet [[Robert Frost]] said that Roosevelt &quot;was our kind. He quoted poetry to me. He knew poetry.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |url= http://www.igougo.com/review-r1150273-Light_gone_out_-_TR_at_the_Library_of_Congress.html |title= &quot;Light gone out&quot; – TR at the Library of Congress – Jefferson's Legacy: The Library of Congress Review |publisher= IgoUgo |access-date= October 31, 2011 |archive-date= April 6, 2012 |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20120406202634/http://www.igougo.com/review-r1150273-Light_gone_out_-_TR_at_the_Library_of_Congress.html |url-status= live }}&lt;/ref&gt; As an editor of ''[[The Outlook (New York City)|The Outlook]]'', Roosevelt had weekly access to a large, educated national audience. In all, Roosevelt wrote about 18 books (each in several editions), including his autobiography,&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book | last = Roosevelt | first = Theodore | author-link = Theodore Roosevelt | title = An Autobiography | publisher = Echo Library | year = 2006 | url = https://books.google.com/books?id=VZi1sGSjFfEC | isbn = 978-1-4068-0155-2 | access-date = September 5, 2020 | archive-date = January 28, 2021 | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20210128003931/https://books.google.com/books?id=VZi1sGSjFfEC | url-status = live }}&lt;/ref&gt; ''The Rough Riders'',&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book | last = Roosevelt | first = Theodore | author-link = Theodore Roosevelt | title = The Rough Riders | publisher = The Review of Reviews Company | year = 1904 | url = https://archive.org/details/roughriders00roos}}&lt;/ref&gt; ''History of the Naval War of 1812'',&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book | last = Roosevelt | first = Theodore | author-link = Theodore Roosevelt | title = The Naval War of 1812 | publisher = G.P. Putnam's Sons | year = 1900 | url = https://books.google.com/books?id=6xkbAAAAIAAJ | access-date = September 5, 2020 | archive-date = August 14, 2021 | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20210814113845/https://books.google.com/books?id=6xkbAAAAIAAJ | url-status = live }}&lt;/ref&gt; and others on subjects such as ranching, explorations, and wildlife. His most ambitious book was the four-volume narrative ''The Winning of the West'', focused on the [[American frontier]] in the 18th and early 19th centuries. Roosevelt said that the American character—indeed a new &quot;American race&quot;—had emerged from the heroic wilderness hunters and Indian fighters, acting on the frontier with little government help.&lt;ref&gt;Richard Slotkin, &quot;Nostalgia and progress: Theodore Roosevelt's myth of the frontier&quot;. ''American Quarterly'' (1981) 33#5 pp: 608–637. [http://wesscholar.wesleyan.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&amp;context=div2facpubs&amp;sei-redir=1&amp;referer=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fq%3D%2527%2527The%2BWinning%2Bof%2Bthe%2BWest%2527%2527%252C%2Bfrontier%2BRoosevelt%2B%2B%2522American%2Brace%2522%26btnG%3D%26hl%3Den%26as_sdt%3D0%252C27#search=%22Winning%20West%2C%20frontier%20Roosevelt%20American%20race%22 online] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140908140330/http://wesscholar.wesleyan.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&amp;context=div2facpubs&amp;sei-redir=1&amp;referer=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fq%3D%2527%2527The%2BWinning%2Bof%2Bthe%2BWest%2527%2527%252C%2Bfrontier%2BRoosevelt%2B%2B%2522American%2Brace%2522%26btnG%3D%26hl%3Den%26as_sdt%3D0%252C27#search=%22Winning%20West%2C%20frontier%20Roosevelt%20American%20race%22 |date=September 8, 2014 }}&lt;/ref&gt; In 1905, Roosevelt became embroiled in a widely publicized literary debate known as the [[nature fakers controversy]]. A few years earlier, naturalist [[John Burroughs]] had published an article entitled &quot;Real and Sham Natural History&quot; in the ''[[Atlantic Monthly]]'', attacking popular writers of the day such as [[Ernest Thompson Seton]], [[Charles G. D. Roberts]], and [[William J. Long]] for their fantastical representations of wildlife. Roosevelt agreed with Burroughs's criticisms and published several essays denouncing the booming genre of &quot;naturalistic&quot; animal stories as &quot;yellow journalism of the woods&quot;. It was the President himself who popularized the negative term &quot;nature faker&quot; to describe writers who depicted their animal characters with excessive anthropomorphism.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite news| last = Carson | first = Gerald | date = February 1971 | url = http://www.americanheritage.com/content/tr-and-%E2%80%9Cnature-fakers%E2%80%9D | title = Roosevelt and the 'nature fakers' | newspaper = American Heritage Magazine | volume = 22 | issue = 2 | access-date = January 5, 2013 | archive-date = January 11, 2013 | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20130111125718/http://www.americanheritage.com/content/tr-and-%E2%80%9Cnature-fakers%E2%80%9D | url-status = live }}&lt;/ref&gt; ==Character and beliefs== [[File:SagamoreHill.JPG|thumb|[[Sagamore Hill]], Roosevelt's estate on [[Long Island]]]] British scholar [[Marcus Cunliffe]] evaluates the liberal argument that Roosevelt was an opportunist, exhibitionist, and imperialist. Cunliffe praises Roosevelt's versatility, his respect for law, and his sincerity. He argues that Roosevelt's foreign policy was better than his detractors allege. Cunliffe calls him &quot;a big man in several respects&quot;.{{sfn|Cunliffe|1955}} Roosevelt was an active [[Freemason]]&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web |title= Theodore Roosevelt |url= http://mdmasons.org/about-md-masons/famous-masons/theodore-roosevelt/ |website= mdmasons.org |publisher= The Grand Lodge of Maryland |access-date= February 15, 2021 |archive-date= November 16, 2020 |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20201116174241/http://mdmasons.org/about-md-masons/famous-masons/theodore-roosevelt/ |url-status= live }}&lt;/ref&gt; and member of the [[Sons of the American Revolution]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url= http://www.sar.org/About/Origins |title= The Origins of the SAR |publisher= SAR |access-date= January 15, 2011 |archive-date= July 3, 2016 |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20160703221050/https://www.sar.org/About/Origins |url-status= live }}&lt;/ref&gt; He was also a member of [[The Explorers Club]].&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |last=MacEacheran |first=Mike |title=The secret travel club that's been everywhere |url=https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20190116-the-secret-travel-club-thats-been-everywhere |access-date=July 3, 2023 |publisher=BBC}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt had a lifelong interest in pursuing what he called, in an 1899 speech, &quot;[[The Strenuous Life]]&quot;. To this end, he exercised regularly and took up boxing, tennis, hiking, rowing, polo, and horseback riding.{{Sfn|Thayer|1919|loc=Chapter XVII|pp=22–24}} As governor of New York, he boxed with sparring partners several times each week, a practice he regularly continued as president until being hit so hard in the face he became blind in his left eye (a fact not made public until many years later). Roosevelt began to believe in the utility of [[jiu-jitsu]] training after training with [[Yamashita Yoshitsugu|Yoshitsugu Yamashita]]. Concerned that the U.S. would lose its military supremacy to rising powers like Japan, Roosevelt began to advocate for jiu-jitsu training for American soldiers.&lt;ref name= &quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal |last= Rouse |first= Wendy |date= November 1, 2015 |title= Jiu-Jitsuing Uncle SamThe Unmanly Art of Jiu-Jitsu and the Yellow Peril Threat in the Progressive Era United States |url= https://online.ucpress.edu/phr/article-abstract/84/4/448/81155/Jiu-Jitsuing-Uncle-SamThe-Unmanly-Art-of-Jiu-Jitsu?redirectedFrom=fulltext |journal= Pacific Historical Review |volume= 84 |issue= 4 |pages= 448–477 |doi= 10.1525/phr.2015.84.4.448 |issn= 0030-8684 |access-date= February 9, 2021 |archive-date= February 14, 2021 |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20210214233936/https://online.ucpress.edu/phr/article-abstract/84/4/448/81155/Jiu-Jitsuing-Uncle-SamThe-Unmanly-Art-of-Jiu-Jitsu?redirectedFrom=fulltext |url-status= live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt was an enthusiastic [[singlestick]] player and, according to ''[[Harper's Weekly]]'', showed up at a White House reception with his arm bandaged after a bout with General [[Leonard Wood]] in 1905.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |last= Amberger |first= J Christoph |title= Secret History of the Sword Adventures in Ancient Martial Arts |year= 1998 |publisher= Multi-Media Books |isbn= 1-892515-04-0}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[File:1905 cartoon Theodore Roosevelt first and war first in peace.jpg|thumb|&quot;The Man of the Hour&quot;, depicting Roosevelt as warrior in 1898 and peacemaker in 1905, settling war between [[Russia]] and [[Japan]]]] Historians have often emphasized Roosevelt's warrior persona.&lt;ref&gt;Kathleen Dalton notes that historians have preferred retelling the &quot;oft-repeated accounts of warmongering.&quot; {{harvnb|Dalton|2002|p=522}}&lt;/ref&gt; Richard D. White Jr states, &quot;Roosevelt's warrior spirit framed his views of national politics, [and] international relations.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book |author= Richard D. White Jr |title= Roosevelt the Reformer: Theodore Roosevelt as Civil Service Commissioner, 1889–1895 |url= https://books.google.com/books?id=58CjuCB9m0MC&amp;pg=PA146 |year= 2003 |publisher= U of Alabama Press |page= 146 |isbn= 978-0-8173-1361-6 |access-date= July 18, 2019 |archive-date= December 13, 2020 |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20201213223410/https://books.google.com/books?id=58CjuCB9m0MC&amp;pg=PA146 |url-status= live }}&lt;/ref&gt; He took aggressive positions regarding war with Spain in 1898, [[History of the Panama Canal|Colombia in 1903]],&lt;ref&gt;Richard W. Turk, &quot;The United States Navy and the 'Taking' of Panama, 1901–1903.&quot; ''Journal of Military History'' 38.3 (1974): 92+.&lt;/ref&gt; and especially with Germany, from 1915 to 1917. As a demonstration of American naval might, he sent the [[Great White Fleet]] around the world in 1907–1909.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |first=James R. |last=Holmes |title='A Striking Thing': Leadership, Strategic Communications, and Roosevelt's Great White Fleet |journal=[[Naval War College Review]] |volume=61 |number=1 |year=2008 |pages=50–67 |url=https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a519197.pdf |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220117073854/https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a519197.pdf |archive-date=January 17, 2022 }}&lt;/ref&gt; He boasted in his autobiography: {{blockquote|When I left the Presidency I finished seven and a half years of administration, during which not one shot had been fired against a foreign foe. We were at absolute peace, and there was no nation in the world with whom a war cloud threatened, no nation in the world whom we had wronged, or from whom we had anything to fear. The cruise of the battle fleet was not the least of the causes which ensured so peaceful an outlook.{{sfn|Roosevelt|1913|p=602}}}} Historian [[Howard K. Beale]] has argued: {{blockquote|He and his associates came close to seeking war for its own sake. Ignorant of modern war, Roosevelt romanticized war. ... Like many young men tamed by civilization into law-abiding but adventurous living, he needed an outlet for the pent-up primordial man in him and found it in fighting and killing, vicariously or directly, in hunting or in war. Indeed he had a fairly good time in war when war came. ... There was something dull and effeminate about peace. ... He gloried in war, was thrilled by military history, and placed warlike qualities high in his scale of values. Without consciously desiring it, he thought a little war now and then stimulated admirable qualities in men. Certainly preparedness for war did.{{sfn|Beale|1956|p=48}}}} Roosevelt often praised moral behavior but apparently never made a spiritual confession of his own faith. After the 1884 death of his wife, he almost never mentioned Jesus in public or private. His rejection of dogma and spirituality, says biographer William Harbaugh, led to a broad tolerance.{{Sfn|Harbaugh|1963|pp= 214–217}} Roosevelt publicly encouraged church attendance and was a conscientious churchgoer himself, a lifelong adherent of the [[Reformed Church in America|Dutch Reformed church]]. When gas rationing was introduced during the First World War, he walked the three miles from his home to the local church and back, even after a serious operation.{{sfn|Reisner|1922|p=355}} According to Christian Reisner, &quot;Religion was as natural to Mr. Roosevelt as breathing&quot;,{{sfn|Reisner|1922|p=324}} and when the travel library for Roosevelt's famous [[Smithsonian–Roosevelt African Expedition|Smithsonian-sponsored African expedition]] was being assembled, the Bible was, according to his sister, &quot;the first book selected&quot;.{{sfn|Reisner|1922|p=306}} In an address delivered to the Long Island Bible Society in 1901, Roosevelt declared that: {{blockquote |Every thinking man, when he thinks, realizes what a very large number of people tend to forget, that the teachings of the Bible are so interwoven and entwined with our whole civic and social life that it would be literally—I do not mean figuratively, I mean literally—impossible for us to figure to ourselves what that life would be if these teachings were removed. We would lose almost all the standards by which we now judge both public and private morals; all the standards toward which we, with more or less of resolution, strive to raise ourselves. Almost every man who has by his lifework added to the sum of human achievement of which the race is proud, has based his lifework largely upon the teachings of the Bible ... Among the greatest men a disproportionately large number have been diligent and close students of the Bible at first hand.{{sfn|Reisner|1922|p=306}}}} ==Political positions== {{Main |Political positions of Theodore Roosevelt}} When he assumed the presidency, Roosevelt reassured many conservatives, stating that &quot;the mechanism of modern business is so delicate that extreme care must be taken not to interfere with it in a spirit of rashness or ignorance.&quot;{{Sfn|Leuchtenburg|2015|pp=30–31}} The following year, Roosevelt asserted the president's independence from business interests by opposing the merger which created the [[Northern Securities Company]], and many were surprised that any president, much less an unelected one, would challenge powerful banker [[J.P. Morgan]].{{Sfn|Leuchtenburg|2015|pp=32–33}} In his last two years as president, Roosevelt became increasingly distrustful of [[big business]], despite its close ties to the Republican Party.&lt;ref&gt;Gary Murphy in &quot;Theodore Roosevelt, Presidential Power and the Regulation of the Market&quot; in {{harvnb|Ricard|2011|pp=154–172}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt sought to replace the 19th-century ''[[laissez-faire]]'' economic environment with a new economic model which included a larger regulatory role for the federal government. He believed that 19th-century entrepreneurs had risked their fortunes on innovations and new businesses, and that these capitalists had been rightly rewarded. By contrast, he believed that 20th-century capitalists risked little but nonetheless reaped huge and, given the lack of risk, unjust, economic rewards. Without a redistribution of wealth away from the upper class, Roosevelt feared that the country would turn to radicals or fall to revolution.{{Sfn|Morris|2001|pp= 430–431, 436}} His [[Square Deal]] domestic program had three main goals: conservation of natural resources, control of corporations, and consumer protection. The Square Deal evolved into his program of &quot;[[New Nationalism (Theodore Roosevelt)|New Nationalism]]&quot;, which emphasized the priority of labor over capital interests and a need to more effectively control corporate creation and combination, and proposed a ban on corporate political contributions.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=675}} ===Foreign policy beliefs=== In the analysis by [[Henry Kissinger]], Roosevelt was the first president to develop the guideline that it was the duty of the United States to make its enormous power and potential influence felt globally. The idea of being a passive &quot;city on the hill&quot; model that others could look up to, he rejected. Roosevelt, trained in biology, was a [[social Darwinist]] who believed in survival of the fittest. The international world in his view was a realm of violence and conflict. The United States had all the economic and geographical potential to be the fittest nation on the globe.&lt;ref&gt;Henry Kissinger, ''[[Diplomacy (Kissinger book)|Diplomacy]]'' (1994, pp. 38–40).&lt;/ref&gt; The United States had a duty to act decisively. For example, in terms of the [[Monroe Doctrine]], the United States had to prevent European incursions in the Western Hemisphere. But there was more, as he expressed in his [[Roosevelt Corollary]] to the Monroe Doctrine: the U.S. had to be the policeman of the region because unruly, corrupt smaller nations had to be controlled, and if United States did not do it, European powers would in fact intervene and develop their own base of power in the hemisphere in contravention to the [[Monroe Doctrine]].&lt;ref&gt;Kissinger, ''Diplomacy'', pp. 38–39&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt was a realist and a conservative.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite journal |first1=Stephen G. |last1=Walker |first2=Mark |last2=Schafer |title=Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson as cultural icons of US foreign policy |journal=[[Political Psychology]] |volume=28 |issue=6 |year=2007 |pages=747–776 |doi=10.1111/j.1467-9221.2007.00602.x }}&lt;/ref&gt; He deplored many of the increasingly popular idealistic liberal themes, such as were promoted by [[William Jennings Bryan]], the anti-imperialists, and [[Woodrow Wilson]]. Kissinger says he rejected the efficacy of international law. Roosevelt argued that if a country could not protect its own interests, the international community could not help very much. He ridiculed disarmament proposals that were increasingly common. He saw no likelihood of an international power capable of checking wrongdoing on a major scale. As for world government:&lt;blockquote&gt; I regard the Wilson–Bryan attitude of trusting to fantastic peace treaties, too impossible promises, to all kinds of scraps of paper without any backing in efficient force, as abhorrent. It is infinitely better for a nation and for the world to have the [[Frederick the Great]] and [[Otto von Bismarck|Bismarck]] tradition as regards foreign policy than to have the Bryan or Bryan–Wilson attitude as a permanent national attitude.... A milk-and-water righteousness unbacked by force is...as wicked as and even more mischievous than force divorced from righteousness.&lt;ref&gt;Kissinger, ''Diplomacy'' p. 40:&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt; On his international outlook, Roosevelt favored [[spheres of influence]], whereby one great power would generally prevail, such as the United States in the Western Hemisphere or Great Britain in the Indian subcontinent. Japan fit that role and he approved. However, he had deep distrust of both Germany and Russia.&lt;ref&gt;Kissinger, pp. 40–42.&lt;/ref&gt; ==Legacy== Historians credit Roosevelt for changing the nation's political system by placing the &quot;[[bully pulpit]]&quot; of the presidency at center stage and emphasizing [[Character (persona)|character]] as much as issues. His accomplishments include trust busting and conservationism. He is a hero to [[Modern liberalism in the United States|liberals]] and [[Progressivism in the United States|progressives]] for his early proposals that foreshadowed the modern welfare state, including [[Direct tax|federal taxation]], [[Labour movement|labor reforms]], and more [[direct democracy]]. [[Conservationists]] admire Roosevelt for prioritizing the [[Environmentalism|environment]] and [[Altruism|selflessness]] towards future generations. [[Conservatism in the United States|Conservatives]] and [[American nationalism|nationalists]] respect his commitment to [[Law and order (politics)|law and order]], [[Civic engagement|civic duty]], and [[Military history of the United States|military values]]. Dalton states, &quot;Today he is heralded as the architect of the modern presidency, as a world leader who boldly reshaped the office to meet the needs of the new century.&quot;{{Sfn|Dalton|2002|pp=4–5}} Liberals and [[History of the socialist movement in the United States|socialists]] criticize his [[Intervention (international law)|interventionist]] and [[American imperialism|imperialist]] approach, while [[Libertarianism in the United States|libertarians]] reject his vision of the welfare state. [[Historical rankings of presidents of the United States|Historians typically rank]] Roosevelt among the top five presidents.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|title=Theodore Roosevelt Biography: Impact and Legacy|website=American President|url=http://www.americanpresident.org/history/theodoreroosevelt/biography/ImpactLegacy.common.shtml|year=2003|publisher=[[Miller Center of Public Affairs]]|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20050418002524/http://www.americanpresident.org/history/theodoreroosevelt/biography/ImpactLegacy.common.shtml|archive-date=April 18, 2005}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Legacy: Theodore Roosevelt|url=https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/presidents/26_t_roosevelt/t_roosevelt_legacy.html|publisher=PBS|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20040417225355/https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/presidents/26_t_roosevelt/t_roosevelt_legacy.html|archive-date=April 17, 2004}}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Persona and masculinity=== [[File:Many Roles of Theodore Roosevelt.JPG|thumb|upright=1.6|A 1910 cartoon depicting Roosevelt's many roles from 1899 to 1910]] Dalton says Roosevelt is remembered as &quot;one of the most picturesque personalities who has ever enlivened the landscape&quot;.{{Sfn|Dalton|2002|p=5}} His friend, historian [[Henry Adams]], proclaimed: &quot;Roosevelt, more than any other man... showed the singular primitive quality that belongs to ultimate matter—the quality that medieval theology assigned to God—he was pure act&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book| first =Henry | last = Adams | title =The Education of Henry Adams: An Autobiography| publisher =Houghton Mifflin Company |url= https://archive.org/details/educationofhenry002024mbp | year=1918|page= [https://archive.org/details/educationofhenry002024mbp/page/n436 417]}}&lt;/ref&gt; Cooper compared him with Woodrow Wilson, highlighting their roles as warrior and priest.{{Sfn|Cooper|1983}} Dalton stressed Roosevelt's strenuous life.{{Sfn|Dalton|2002}} Brands calls Roosevelt &quot;the last [[Romanticism|romantic]]&quot;, viewing his romantic notion of life as emerging from his belief in physical bravery as the highest virtue.{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=x}} [[Henry F. Pringle]], who won the [[Pulitzer Prize]] for ''Theodore Roosevelt'' (1931), stated the &quot;Roosevelt of later years was the most adolescent of men.&quot;{{sfn|Pringle|1931|p=4}} Roosevelt as the exemplar of American masculinity has become a major theme.{{Sfn|Testi|1995|p=1513}}&lt;ref&gt;D. G. Daniels, &quot;Theodore Roosevelt and Gender Roles&quot; ''Presidential Studies Quarterly'' (1996) 26#3 pp. 648–665&lt;/ref&gt; He often warned that men were becoming too complacent, failing in their duties to propagate the race and exhibit masculine vigor.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal | first = Leroy G | last = Dorsey | title = Managing Women's Equality: Theodore Roosevelt, the Frontier Myth, and the Modern Woman | journal = Rhetoric &amp; Public Affairs | year = 2013 | volume = 16 | number = 3 | page = 425 | doi=10.1353/rap.2013.0037| s2cid = 144278936 }}&lt;/ref&gt; Historian [[Serge Ricard]] noted that Roosevelt's advocacy of the &quot;Strenuous Life&quot; made him an ideal subject for psycho-historical analysis of aggressive manhood in his era.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal | first = Serge | last = Ricard | title = Review | journal = The Journal of Military History | year = 2005 | volume = 69 | number = 2 |pages = 536–537 | doi=10.1353/jmh.2005.0123| s2cid = 153729793 }}&lt;/ref&gt; He promoted competitive sports for physically strengthening American men&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt; and supported organizations like the [[Boy Scouts of America|Boy Scouts]], to mold and strengthen the character of American boys.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book | publisher =Boy Scouts of America | title =Boy Scouts Handbook | edition =original | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=GighAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT374 | year =1911 | pages =374–376 | isbn =978-1-62636-639-8 | access-date =October 17, 2015 | archive-date =October 16, 2015 | archive-url =https://web.archive.org/web/20151016124911/https://books.google.com/books?id=GighAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT374 | url-status =live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Brands shows that heroic displays of bravery were central to Roosevelt's image: {{Blockquote | What makes the hero a hero is the romantic notion that he stands above the tawdry give and take of everyday politics, occupying an ethereal realm where partisanship gives way to patriotism, and division to unity, and where the nation regains its lost innocence...{{Sfn|Brands|1997|p=372}}}} In 1902, [[Théobald Chartran]] was commissioned to paint Roosevelt's presidential portrait.&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot;&gt;{{Cite news |date=September 8, 2022 |title=The presidents who hated their presidential portraits |newspaper=The Washington Post |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/09/07/presidential-portraits-trump-obama-biden/ |access-date=August 4, 2023 |issn=0190-8286}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |date=June 21, 2019 |title=A Tale of Two Painters: Theodore Roosevelt's Portraits |publisher=Boundary Stones |url=https://boundarystones.weta.org/2019/06/21/tale-two-painters-theodore-roosevelts-portraits |access-date=August 4, 2023}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt hid it in a closet before having it destroyed because it made him look like a &quot;meek kitten&quot;.&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt; Roosevelt instead chose [[John Singer Sargent]] to paint his portrait.&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt; ===Memorials and cultural depictions=== {{Main|List of memorials to Theodore Roosevelt|Cultural depictions of Theodore Roosevelt}} {{multiple image | total_width = 450 | direction = horizontal | image1 = Dean Franklin - 06.04.03 Mount Rushmore Monument (by-sa)-3 new.jpg | caption1 = Roosevelt, second from right, on [[Mount Rushmore]] | image2 = MtRushmore TR close.jpg | caption2 = A close up of Roosevelt's face on Mount Rushmore }} Roosevelt was included with Presidents [[George Washington]], [[Thomas Jefferson]], and [[Abraham Lincoln]] at the [[Mount Rushmore|Mount Rushmore Memorial]], designed in 1927.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last1=Domek|first1=Tom|last2=Hayes|first2=Robert E.|title=Mt. Rushmore and Keystone|date=2006|publisher=Arcadia Publishing}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite book|last1=Fite|first1=Gibert C.|title=Mount Rushmore|date=2003|publisher=Mount Rushmore History Association|isbn=0-9646798-5-X}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt's &quot;[[Big stick ideology|Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick]]&quot; ideology is still quoted by politicians and columnists—not only in English, but in many translations.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine |last=Fung |first=Brian |date=September 24, 2012 |title=What Does Teddy Roosevelt's 'Big Stick' Line Really Mean, Anyway? |url=https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/09/what-does-teddy-roosevelts-big-stick-line-really-mean-anyway/262579/ |magazine=The Atlantic|publisher=Emerson Collective |access-date=June 10, 2020 |archive-date=July 26, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200726060142/https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/09/what-does-teddy-roosevelts-big-stick-line-really-mean-anyway/262579/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; Another popular legacy is the [[teddy bear]]—named after him following an incident on a hunting trip in [[Mississippi]] in 1902.{{Sfn|Leuchtenburg|2015|p=30}} For his gallantry at San Juan Hill, Roosevelt's commanders recommended him for the [[Medal of Honor]]. However, the recommendation lacked any eyewitnesses, and the effort was tainted by Roosevelt's lobbying of the War Department.{{sfn|Mears|2018|pp=153–154}} In the 1990s, Roosevelt's supporters again recommended the award, which was denied by the [[Secretary of the Army]] on the basis the decorations board determined &quot;Roosevelt's bravery in battle did not rise to the level that would justify the Medal of Honor and, indeed, it did not rise to the level of men who fought in that engagement.&quot;{{sfn|Mears|2018|p=154}} Nevertheless, politicians apparently convinced the secretary to reconsider and reverse himself, leading to the charge it was a &quot;politically motivated award&quot;.{{sfn|Mears|2018|p=155}} In 2001, President [[Bill Clinton]] awarded Theodore Roosevelt the Medal of Honor for his charge.&lt;ref name=MoH2001&gt;{{cite book|last=Woodall|first=James R.|title=Williams-Ford Texas A and M University Military History: Texas Aggie Medals of Honor: Seven Heroes of World War II|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=QBSRPbx44bIC&amp;pg=PA18|year=2010|publisher=Texas A&amp;M University Press|page=18|isbn=978-1-60344-253-4|access-date=October 17, 2015|archive-date=April 7, 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150407004916/http://books.google.com/books?id=QBSRPbx44bIC&amp;pg=PA18|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; He is the only president to have received it.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|last1=Dorr|first1=Robert F.|title=Theodore Roosevelt's Medal of Honor|url=https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/theodore-roosevelts-medal-of-honor/|publisher=Defense Media Network|date=July 1, 2015|access-date=February 12, 2018|archive-date=February 13, 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180213080429/https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/theodore-roosevelts-medal-of-honor/|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[United States Navy]] named two ships for Roosevelt: the {{USS|Theodore Roosevelt|SSBN-600}}, a submarine in commission from 1961 to 1982, and the {{USS|Theodore Roosevelt|CVN-71}}, an [[aircraft carrier]] on active duty in the [[United States Atlantic Fleet|Atlantic Fleet]] since 1986. Roosevelt has appeared on five U.S. Postage stamps, the first being issued in 1922.&lt;ref&gt;''Scott Specialized Catalogue of US Stamps'', pp. 79, 108, 137, 667, 668&lt;/ref&gt; In 1956, the [[United States Postal Service]] released a 6¢ [[Liberty Issue]] postage stamp honoring Roosevelt. A 32¢ stamp was issued in 1998, as part of the [[Celebrate the Century]] series.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|title=Up 1900s Celebrate The Century Issues|url=http://arago.si.edu/index.asp?con=1&amp;cmd=1&amp;tid=2041381|publisher=Smithsonian National Postal Museum|access-date=June 18, 2015|date=January 1, 1998|archive-date=June 18, 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150618202114/http://arago.si.edu/index.asp?con=1&amp;cmd=1&amp;tid=2041381}}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Theodore Roosevelt National Park]] in [[North Dakota]] is named after him.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite magazine |title=Theodore Roosevelt National Park |department=Travel |url=https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/national-parks/theodore-roosevelt-national-park |magazine=National Geographic |access-date=August 17, 2018 |date=November 5, 2009 |archive-date=August 17, 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180817161229/https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/national-parks/theodore-roosevelt-national-park/ }}&lt;/ref&gt; The [[America the Beautiful Quarters]] series features Roosevelt riding a horse on the national park's quarter. Asteroid [[188693 Roosevelt]], discovered in 2005, was named after him.&lt;ref name=&quot;MPC-object&quot;&gt;{{cite web |title = (188693) Roosevelt |work = Minor Planet Center |url = https://www.minorplanetcenter.net/db_search/show_object?object_id=188693 |access-date = November 21, 2019 |archive-date = March 8, 2021 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20210308120054/https://www.minorplanetcenter.net/db_search/show_object?object_id=188693 |url-status = live }}&lt;/ref&gt; The official {{MoMP|188693|naming citation}} was published by the [[Minor Planet Center]] on November 8, 2019 ({{small|[[Minor Planet Circulars|M.P.C.]] 118221}}).&lt;ref name=&quot;MPC-Circulars-Archive&quot;&gt;{{cite web |title = MPC/MPO/MPS Archive |work = Minor Planet Center |url = https://www.minorplanetcenter.net/iau/ECS/MPCArchive/MPCArchive_TBL.html |access-date = November 21, 2019 |archive-date = October 7, 2010 |archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20101007190852/https://www.minorplanetcenter.net/iau/ECS/MPCArchive/MPCArchive_TBL.html |url-status = live }}&lt;/ref&gt; [[Robert Peary]] named the [[Roosevelt Range]] and [[Roosevelt Land]] after him.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|url=https://www.scribd.com/book/380583976/Race-to-the-Top-of-the-World-Richard-Byrd-and-the-First-Flight-to-the-North-Pole|title=Race to the Top of the World: Richard Byrd and the First Flight to the North Pole |first=Sheldon |last=Bart |via=www.scribd.com}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt has also been portrayed in films and television series such as ''[[Brighty of the Grand Canyon]]'', ''[[The Wind and the Lion]]'', ''[[Rough Riders (film)|Rough Riders]]'', ''[[My Friend Flicka (TV series)|My Friend Flicka]]'',&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=http://ctva.biz/US/Western/MyFriendFlicka.htm|title=My Friend Flicka|publisher=Classic Television Archives|access-date=March 18, 2009|archive-date=January 21, 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110121120755/http://ctva.biz/US/Western/MyFriendFlicka.htm|url-status=live}}&lt;/ref&gt;'' and [[Law of the Plainsman]].'' [[Robin Williams]] portrayed Roosevelt in the form of a wax [[mannequin]] that comes to life in ''[[Night at the Museum]]'' and its sequels.{{sfn|Cullinane|2017}}&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://variety.com/2014/scene/news/robin-williams-ben-stiller-night-at-the-museum-premiere-1201378034/|title=Ben Stiller, 'Night at the Museum' Cast Honor Robin Williams at Premiere|last=Chi|first=Paul|date=December 12, 2014|website=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=October 24, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lists/hollywood-best-presidents-movies-and-tv/morgan-freeman-as-tom-beck/|title=24 of Hollywood's Best Presidents in Movies and TV|date=February 21, 2022|website=[[The Hollywood Reporter]]|access-date=October 24, 2022}}&lt;/ref&gt; Roosevelt is the leader of the American civilization in the video game ''[[Civilization VI]]''.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web |title=Teddy Roosevelt will kill you with culture in 'Civilization VI' |url=https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/civilization-vi-roosevelt-culture/ |access-date=March 8, 2022 |first=Gabe |last=Gurwin |website=[[Digital Trends]] |date=June 20, 2016 |archive-date=March 8, 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220308164606/https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/civilization-vi-roosevelt-culture/ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; For 80 years, [[Equestrian Statue of Theodore Roosevelt (New York City)|an equestrian statue]] of Roosevelt, sitting above a [[Native Americans in the United States|Native American]] and an [[African American]], stood in front of New York's [[American Museum of Natural History]]. In 2022, after years of lobbying by activists, the statue was removed. Museum president [[Ellen V. Futter]] said the decision did not reflect a judgment about Roosevelt but the sculpture's &quot;hierarchical composition&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;{{cite news |url=https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2022/01/20/theodore-roosevelt-statue-amnh-removed |title=Controversial statue of Theodore Roosevelt removed from American Museum of Natural History |date=January 20, 2022 |work=The Art Newspaper |first=Benjamin |last=Sutton |access-date=January 25, 2022 |archive-date=January 21, 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220121040700/https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2022/01/20/theodore-roosevelt-statue-amnh-removed |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref name=pogrebin&gt;{{cite news |work=The New York Times |access-date=June 21, 2020 |date=June 21, 2020 |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/arts/design/roosevelt-statue-to-be-removed-from-museum-of-natural-history.html |first=Robin |last=Pogrebin |title=Roosevelt Statue to Be Removed From Museum of Natural History |archive-date=June 21, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200621231116/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/arts/design/roosevelt-statue-to-be-removed-from-museum-of-natural-history.html |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; ===Audiovisual media=== Roosevelt was one of the first presidents whose voice was recorded for posterity. Several of his recorded speeches survive.&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web | format = audio clips | url = http://vvl.lib.msu.edu/list.php?view_keywords=speaker_roosevelt,%20theodore | title = Vincent Voice Library | publisher = [[Michigan State University]] | access-date = July 17, 2012 | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20130603142019/http://vvl.lib.msu.edu/list.php?view_keywords=speaker_roosevelt,%20theodore | archive-date = June 3, 2013}}&lt;/ref&gt; A 1912 voice recording of ''The Right of the People to Rule'',&lt;ref&gt;{{cite web|url = http://www.lib.msu.edu/uri-res/N2L?urn:x-msulib::vvl:DB512 |title=MSU |access-date=September 14, 2010}}&lt;/ref&gt; which preserves Roosevelt's lower timbre ranges particularly well for its time, is available from the [[Michigan State University]] libraries. The audio clip sponsored by the Authentic History Center includes his defense&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book |title=Progressive Principles |last=Roosevelt |first=Theodore |author-link=Theodore Roosevelt |editor-last=Youngman |editor-first=Elmer H |year=1913a |publisher=Progressive National Service |page=215 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=qLYJAAAAIAAJ |access-date=April 14, 2009 |archive-date=December 22, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201222104526/https://books.google.com/books?id=qLYJAAAAIAAJ |url-status=live }}&lt;/ref&gt; of the Progressive Party in 1912, wherein he proclaims it the &quot;party of the people&quot;&amp;nbsp;– in contrast with the other major parties. {{multiple image | align=center| width = 300 | image1 = Teddy Roosevelt, San Francisco, 1903.ogg | caption1 = Parade for the school children down [[Van Ness Avenue]] in [[San Francisco]] | image2 = Teddy Roosevelt video montage.ogg | caption2 = Collection of film clips of Roosevelt }} ==See also== * [[Electoral history of Theodore Roosevelt]] * [[List of famous big game hunters]] * [[List of presidents of the United States]] * [[List of presidents of the United States by previous experience]] * [[Presidents of the United States on U.S. postage stamps]] * {{SS|Roosevelt|1905}} * {{SS|President Roosevelt|1921}} * {{SS|President Roosevelt|1944}} * [[Teddy bear#History|Teddy bear]] * [[Theodore Roosevelt Digital Library]] ==Notes== {{Notelist}} ==References== {{reflist}} ==Sources== {{Main|Bibliography of Theodore Roosevelt|Theodore Roosevelt bibliography|l2=Books Written by Theodore Roosevelt}} {{refbegin|30em}} * {{cite journal|last=Bakari|first= Mohamed El-Kamel|title=Mapping the 'Anthropocentric-ecocentric'Dualism in the History of American Presidency: The Good, the Bad, and the Ambivalent|journal=Journal of Studies in Social Sciences|volume= 14|issue= 2 |year=2016}} * {{cite book | last = Beale | first = Howard K. | year = 1956 | title = Theodore Roosevelt and the Rise of America to World Power | publisher = Johns Hopkins Press |url=https://archive.org/details/theodoreroosevel0000beal }} * {{cite book | last = Bishop | first = Joseph Bucklin | year = 2007 | title = Theodore Roosevelt's Letters to His Children | publisher = Wildside Press | isbn = 978-1-434-48394-2}} * {{cite book | author-link = John Morton Blum| last = Blum | first = John Morton | year = 1977|edition=2nd | title = The Republican Roosevelt| publisher = Harvard University Press}} * {{cite book | author-link = H. W. Brands | last = Brands | first = Henry William | year = 1997 | title = TR: The Last Romantic | publisher = Basic Books | url = https://archive.org/details/trlastromantic00bran | isbn = 978-0-465-06958-3 }} * {{cite book| year= 2009| title= The Wilderness Warrior: Theodore Roosevelt and the Crusade for America| url= https://archive.org/details/wildernesswarrio00brin_0| url-access= registration| last= Brinkley| first= Douglas| author-link= Douglas Brinkley| publisher= HarperCollins| isbn= 978-0-06-056528-2}} * {{cite book |last=Chambers|first=John W. |editor1-last=Woodward |editor1-first=C. Vann |title=Responses of the Presidents to Charges of Misconduct |publisher=Delacorte Press|pages=207–237 |year=1974 |isbn=0-440-05923-2}} * {{cite book | last = Chessman | first = G. Wallace | year = 1965 | title = Governor Theodore Roosevelt: The Albany Apprenticeship, 1898–1900}} * {{cite book | last = Cooper | first = John Milton | author-link = John Milton Cooper | year = 1983 | url = https://archive.org/details/warriorpries00coop | url-access = registration | title = The Warrior and the Priest: Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt | publisher = Harvard University Press | isbn = 978-0-674-94751-1 }} * {{cite book |last=Cullinane |first=Michael Patrick |title=Theodore Roosevelt's Ghost: The History and Memory of an American Icon |publisher=LSU Press |year=2017 |isbn=978-0-8071-6672-7 }} * {{cite journal|last=Cunliffe|first= Marcus|title=Theodore Roosevelt, President of the United States 1901–1908|journal=History Today|year=1955|volume= 4|issue=9|pages=592–601}} * {{cite book | last = Dalton | first = Kathleen | year = 2002 | title = Theodore Roosevelt: A Strenuous Life | publisher = Knopf Doubleday Publishing | url = https://archive.org/details/theodoreroosevel00dalt | url-access = registration | isbn = 0-679-76733-9 }} * {{cite book | last = Gould | first = Lewis L. | year = 2008a | title = Four Hats in the Ring: The 1912 Election and the Birth of Modern American Politics | publisher = University Press of Kansas | isbn = 978-0-7006-1564-3 }} * {{cite book | last = Gould | first = Lewis L. | year = 2011 | title = The Presidency of Theodore Roosevelt | edition = 2nd|url=https://archive.org/details/presidencyoftheo0000goul_k0b9}} * {{cite book | last = Gould | first = Lewis L. | year = 2012 |author-link=Lewis L. Gould|url = https://archive.org/details/theodoreroosevel00goul | url-access = registration | title = Theodore Roosevelt | publisher = Oxford University Press | isbn = 978-0-19-979701-1 }} * {{cite book | last = Harbaugh | first = William Henry | year = 1963 | title = The Life and Times of Theodore Roosevelt | url = https://archive.org/details/powerandresponsi012652mbp | publisher = Farrar, Straus And Cudahy }} * {{cite journal | last = Kohn | first = Edward P. | title = A Necessary Defeat: Theodore Roosevelt and the New York Mayoral Election of 1886 | journal = New York History | volume = 87 |year=2006 | pages=205–227}} * {{cite book|last1=Leuchtenburg|first1=William E.|title=The American President: From Teddy Roosevelt to Bill Clinton|date=2015|publisher=Oxford University Press}} * {{cite book | first = David | last = McCullough | author-link = David McCullough | year = 1981 | title = Mornings on Horseback: The Story of an Extraordinary Family, a Vanished Way of Life and the Unique Child Who Became Theodore Roosevelt | url = https://books.google.com/books?id=nuzmvrqPvdIC | publisher = Simon &amp; Schuster | isbn = 978-0-7432-1830-6 | access-date = October 17, 2015 | archive-date = April 7, 2015 | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20150407082109/http://books.google.com/books?id=nuzmvrqPvdIC | url-status = live }} * {{Cite book |last=Mears |first=Dwight S. |title=The Medal of Honor: The Evolution of America's Highest Military Decoration |publisher=University Press of Kansas |year=2018 |isbn=978-0-7006-2665-6}} *{{cite book|last=Millard|first=C|title=The river of doubt: Theodore Roosevelt's darkest journey|year=2009}} * {{cite book | last = Miller | first = Nathan | year = 1992 | url = https://archive.org/details/theodoreroosevel00mill | url-access = registration | title = Theodore Roosevelt: A Life | publisher = William Morrow &amp; Co | isbn = 978-0-688-06784-7 }} * {{cite book|editor-last=Morison|editor-first=Elting E|title=The letters of Theodore Roosevelt|publisher=Harvard University Press|year=1952}} * {{cite book | author-link = Edmund Morris (writer) | last = Morris | first = Edmund | year = 1979 | url = https://archive.org/details/riseoftheodorero00morr | url-access = registration | title = The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt | volume = 1. To 1901 | publisher = Coward, McCann &amp; Geoghegan | isbn = 978-0-698-10783-0 }} ** {{cite book | last = Morris | first = Edmund | year = 2001 | url = https://archive.org/details/theodorerex00edmu | url-access = registration | title = Theodore Rex | volume = 2. To 1909 }} ** {{cite book | last = Morris | first = Edmund | year = 2010 | title = Colonel Roosevelt | volume = 3 | url = https://books.google.com/books?id=ouQVJQ1C7PIC | publisher = Random House | isbn = 978-0-679-60415-0 | access-date = December 12, 2016 | archive-date = March 13, 2022 | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20220313192039/https://books.google.com/books?id=ouQVJQ1C7PIC | url-status = live }} * {{cite book | last = O'Toole | first = Patricia | author-link = Patricia O'Toole | year = 2005 | title = When Trumpets Call: Theodore Roosevelt after the White House | publisher = Simon &amp; Schuster | isbn = 0-684-86477-0 | url = https://archive.org/details/whentrumpetscall00otoo }} * {{cite book | last = Pringle | first = Henry F. | year = 1931 | url = https://archive.org/details/isbn_0156889439 | url-access = registration | title = Theodore Roosevelt | author-link = Henry F. Pringle }} * {{cite book | last = Pringle | first = Henry F. | year = 1956 | url = https://archive.org/details/theodoreroosevel00prin | url-access = registration | title = Theodore Roosevelt | publisher = Harcourt, Brace | edition = 2nd }} * {{cite book | last = Putnam | first = Carleton | year = 1958 | url = https://archive.org/details/theodoreroosevel0000putn | url-access = registration | title = Theodore Roosevelt | volume = I: The Formative Years | author-link = Carleton Putnam }} * {{cite book |title= Roosevelt's Religion |last= Reisner |first= Christian F. |publisher= The Abingdon Press |year= 1922 }} * {{cite book |editor-last=Ricard |editor-first=Serge |year=2011 |title=A Companion to Theodore Roosevelt |publisher=Wiley |isbn=978-1-4443-3140-0 }} * {{cite web|last=Ricard|first= Serge|title=H-Diplo Essay No. 116 - The State of Theodore Roosevelt Studies|url=http://h-diplo.org/essays/PDF/E116.pdf |publisher=H-Diplo - H-Net network on Diplomatic History and International Affairs, Michigan State University Department of History|year=2014 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20141027133122/http://h-diplo.org/essays/PDF/E116.pdf |archive-date=October 27, 2014 }} * {{cite book | last = Roosevelt | first = Theodore | title = Autobiography | year = 1913| publisher = [[Macmillan Publishers|Macmillan]]|url=https://archive.org/details/theodorerooseve05roosgoog }} * {{cite book |last=Roosevelt |first=Theodore |title=The Foes of Our Own Household |date=1917 |url=https://archive.org/details/foesourownhouse00roosgoog |author-mask=3 |author-link=Theodore Roosevelt |publisher=George H. Doran |lccn=17025965 }} * {{cite book | last = Roosevelt | first = Theodore | title = The Works of Theodore Roosevelt, Volumes 1-24 | publisher=[[C. Scribner's Sons]]|year = 1926 | edition = Memorial|ref=none}} * {{cite web | last = Roosevelt | first = Theodore | title = Theodore Roosevelt Association Cyclopedia | orig-date = 1941| url=https://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/content.aspx?page_id=22&amp;club_id=991271&amp;module_id=339179 | date=1989| edition=Revised 2nd | editor1-last = Hart | editor2-last = Ferleger | editor1-first = Albert Bushnell | editor2-first = Herbert Ronald|ref=none}} * {{cite book | last = Roosevelt | first = Theodore | title = The Selected Letters | year = 2001 | publisher = Cooper Square Press | isbn = 978-0-8154-1126-0| editor-last = Brands | editor-first = HW|url=https://archive.org/details/selectedletterso00roos}} * {{cite book |last=Ruddy|first=Daniel|title=Theodore the Great: Conservative Crusader|publisher=Regnery History |date=2016 |isbn=978-1-62157-441-5}} * {{cite book| last=Samuels| first=Peggy| year=1997| title=Teddy Roosevelt at San Juan: The Making of a President| url=https://books.google.com/books?id=1v7PSGbzhDwC| publisher=Texas A&amp;M UP| isbn=978-0-89096-771-3| access-date=October 17, 2015| archive-date=April 7, 2015| archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150407081231/http://books.google.com/books?id=1v7PSGbzhDwC| url-status=live}} * {{Cite journal|first=Arnaldo |last=Testi|title=The gender of reform politics: Theodore Roosevelt and the culture of masculinity|journal=Journal of American History|volume= 81|issue=4 |year=1995|pages=1509–1533|doi=10.2307/2081647 |jstor=2081647 |url=https://www.academia.edu/1143163 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20191025180531/https://www.academia.edu/1143163/The_Gender_of_Reform_Politics_Theodore_Roosevelt_and_the_Culture_of_Masculinity_1995_full_text_teaching_material_ |archive-date=October 25, 2019 }} * {{cite book| last = Thayer| first = William Roscoe| year = 1919| title = Theodore Roosevelt: an intimate biography| url = https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.168636| publisher = Houghton Mifflin}} * {{cite book | last = Watts | first = Sarah | year = 2003 | title = Rough Rider in the White House: Theodore Roosevelt and the Politics of Desire}} {{refend}} ==External links== {{Sister project links|wikt=Roosevelt |b=no |n=no |s=Author:Theodore Roosevelt |v=no}} ===Organizations=== * [http://www.boone-crockett.org Boone and Crockett Club] * [http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org Theodore Roosevelt Association] ===Libraries and collections=== *[https://www.trlibrary.com/ Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library] Medora, North Dakota. * [http://www.theodorerooseveltcenter.org/ Theodore Roosevelt Center] at [[Dickinson State University]] * [https://web.archive.org/web/20180606131421/http://www.hcl.harvard.edu/libraries/houghton/collections/roosevelt.cfm Theodore Roosevelt Collection], at the [[Houghton Library]], Harvard University * [https://guides.loc.gov/theodore-roosevelt-hunting-library Theodore Roosevelt Hunting Library] at the [https://www.loc.gov Library of Congress], Washington, DC. * [http://www.historicjournalism.com/theodore-roosevelt.html Theodore Roosevelt's journalism at The Archive of American Journalism] * [https://web.archive.org/web/20170814084741/http://www.amnh.org/explore/science-topics/theodore-roosevelt Theodore Roosevelt American Museum of Natural History] * {{Gutenberg author | id=729}} * {{Internet Archive author |sname=Theodore Roosevelt}} * {{Librivox author |id=1471}} ===Media=== * [https://archive.org/details/theoroos1912 Theodore Roosevelt Speech Edison Recordings Campaign - 1912], audio recording * {{NYTtopic|people/r/theodore_roosevelt}} * [http://www.c-span.org/video/?151618-1/life-portrait-theodore-roosevelt &quot;Life Portrait of Theodore Roosevelt&quot;], from [[C-SPAN]]'s ''[[American Presidents: Life Portraits]]'', September 3, 1999 * [http://www.c-span.org/video/?165366-1/writings-theodore-roosevelt &quot;Writings of Theodore Roosevelt&quot;] from [[C-SPAN]]'s ''[[American Writers: A Journey Through History]]'' ===Other=== * [http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/ Almanac of Theodore Roosevelt] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210501200726/http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/ |date=May 1, 2021 }} * [https://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/presidents/troosevelt/index.html Theodore Roosevelt: A Resource Guide]&amp;nbsp;– [[Library of Congress]] * {{Nobelprize}} {{Theodore Roosevelt}} {{Navboxes |title=Offices and distinctions |list1= {{s-start}} {{s-par|us-ny-hs}} {{s-bef|before=[[William J. Trimble]]}} {{s-ttl|title=Member of the [[New York State Assembly|New York Assembly]]&lt;br /&gt;from the 21st district|years=1882–1884}} {{s-aft|after=[[Henry A. Barnum]]}} {{s-bef|before=[[Thomas G. Alvord]]}} {{s-ttl|title=Minority Leader of the [[New York State Assembly|New York Assembly]]|years=1883}} {{s-aft|after=[[Frank Rice (politician)|Frank Rice]]}} {{s-civ}} {{s-break}} {{s-vac|unknown|unknlast=[[William Farrar Smith]]}} {{s-ttl|title=[[New York City Police Commissioner|Superintendent of the New York City Police Department]]|years=1895–1897}} {{s-aft|after=[[John McCullagh (superintendent)|John McCullagh]]}} {{s-gov}} {{s-bef|before=[[William McAdoo (New Jersey)|William McAdoo]]}} {{s-ttl|title=[[Assistant Secretary of the Navy]]|years=1897–1898}} {{s-aft|after=[[Charles Herbert Allen]]}} {{s-ppo}} {{s-bef|before=[[Frank S. Black]]}} {{s-ttl|title=[[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] nominee for [[Governor of New York]]|years=[[1898 New York state election|1898]]}} {{s-aft|after=[[Benjamin Odell (politician)|Benjamin Odell]]}} {{s-bef|before=[[Garret Hobart]]}} {{s-ttl|title=[[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] [[List of United States Republican Party presidential tickets|nominee]] for Vice President of the United States|years=[[1900 United States presidential election|1900]]}} {{s-aft|after=[[Charles W. Fairbanks]]}} {{s-bef|before=[[William McKinley]]}} {{s-ttl|title=[[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] [[List of United States Republican Party presidential tickets|nominee]] for President of the United States|years=[[1904 United States presidential election|1904]]}} {{s-aft|after=[[William Howard Taft]]}} {{s-new|party}} {{s-ttl|title=[[Progressive Party (United States, 1912)|Progressive]] nominee for President of the United States|years=[[1912 United States presidential election|1912]]}} {{s-non|reason=Party dissolved}} {{s-off}} {{s-bef|before=[[Frank S. Black]]}} {{s-ttl|title=[[Governor of New York]]|years=1899–1900}} {{s-aft|after=[[Benjamin Barker Odell Jr.]]}} {{s-bef|before=[[Garret Hobart]]}} {{s-ttl|title=[[Vice President of the United States]]|years=1901}} {{s-aft|after=[[Charles W. Fairbanks]]}} {{s-bef|before=[[William McKinley]]}} {{s-ttl|title=[[President of the United States]]|years=1901–1909}} {{s-aft|after=[[William Howard Taft]]}} {{s-ach}} {{s-bef|before=[[Bertha von Suttner]]}} {{s-ttl|title=Laureate of the [[Nobel Peace Prize]]|years=1906}} {{s-aft|after=[[Ernesto Teodoro Moneta]]|after2=[[Louis Renault (jurist)|Louis Renault]]}} {{s-end}} }} {{Navboxes |title=Articles related to Theodore Roosevelt |list1= {{US Presidents}} {{USVicePresidents}} {{Governors of New York}} {{USSecNavy}} {{USRepPresNominees}} {{Historical left-wing third party presidential tickets (U.S.)}} {{T Roosevelt cabinet}} {{Nobel Peace Prize Laureates 1901–1925}} {{1906 Nobel Prize winners}} {{Hall of Fame for Great Americans}} {{Mount Rushmore}} {{American Historical Association presidents}} {{Rough Riders}} {{Teddy bears}} {{Eleanor Roosevelt}} {{United States presidential election, 1900}} {{United States presidential election, 1904}} {{United States presidential election, 1912}} {{Time 100: The Most Important People of the Century}} }} {{Portal bar|Biography|Environment|History|New York City|New York (state)|Politics|United States}} {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Roosevelt, Theodore}} [[Category:Theodore Roosevelt| ]] [[Category:1858 births]] [[Category:1900 United States vice-presidential candidates]] [[Category:1900s in the United States]] [[Category:1919 deaths]] [[Category:19th-century American politicians]] [[Category:19th-century American historians]] [[Category:19th-century American male writers]] [[Category:20th-century American diarists]] [[Category:20th-century American male writers]] [[Category:20th-century American non-fiction writers]] [[Category:20th-century presidents of the United States]] [[Category:20th-century vice presidents of the United States]] [[Category:American autobiographers]] [[Category:American conservationists]] [[Category:19th-century American diarists]] [[Category:American essayists]] [[Category:American explorers]] [[Category:American fishers]] [[Category:American Freemasons]] [[Category:American hunters]] [[Category:American male judoka]] [[Category:American male non-fiction writers]] [[Category:American nationalists]] [[Category:American naval historians]] [[Category:American Nobel laureates]] [[Category:American political party founders]] [[Category:American political writers]] [[Category:American shooting survivors]] [[Category:Aphorists]] [[Category:Articles containing video clips]] [[Category:American bibliophiles]] [[Category:American people of Dutch descent]] [[Category:Bulloch family]] [[Category:Candidates in the 1904 United States presidential election]] [[Category:Candidates in the 1912 United States presidential election]] [[Category:Candidates in the 1916 United States presidential election]] [[Category:Deaths from pulmonary embolism]] [[Category:English-language spelling reform advocates]] [[Category:Explorers of Amazonia]] [[Category:Governors of New York (state)]] [[Category:Hall of Fame for Great Americans inductees]] [[Category:Harvard Advocate alumni]] [[Category:Harvard College alumni]] [[Category:Liberalism in the United States]] [[Category:Members of the American Academy of Arts and Letters]] [[Category:Members of the American Philosophical Society]] [[Category:Members of the Sons of the American Revolution]] [[Category:Military personnel from New York City]] [[Category:New York City Police Commissioners]] [[Category:New York (state) Progressives (1912)]] [[Category:Nobel Peace Prize laureates]] [[Category:People associated with the American Museum of Natural History]] [[Category:People from Oyster Bay (town), New York]] [[Category:Politicians from New York City]] [[Category:Presidents of the American Historical Association]] [[Category:Presidents of the United States]] [[Category:Progressive Era in the United States]] [[Category:Progressivism in the United States]] [[Category:Progressive conservatism]] [[Category:Ranchers from North Dakota]] [[Category:Republican Party governors of New York (state)]] [[Category:Republican Party members of the New York State Assembly]] [[Category:Republican Party presidents of the United States]] [[Category:Republican Party (United States) presidential nominees]] [[Category:Republican Party (United States) vice presidential nominees]] [[Category:Republican Party vice presidents of the United States]] [[Category:Roosevelt family|Theodore]] [[Category:Rough Riders]] [[Category:Schuyler family]] [[Category:Spanish–American War recipients of the Medal of Honor]] [[Category:United States Army Medal of Honor recipients]] [[Category:United States Army officers]] [[Category:United States Assistant Secretaries of the Navy]] [[Category:Vice presidents of the United States]] [[Category:Writers from New York (state)]]</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/FAR_urgents&diff=1259167022</id> <title>Wikipedia:Featured article review/FAR urgents</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/FAR_urgents&diff=1259167022"/> <updated>2024-11-23T19:05:49Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: upd <hr /> <div>{| class=&quot;{{{class|}}}&quot; style=&quot;border-spacing: 3px; margin: 0.5em 0 0.5em 1em; float: right; clear: right; font-size: 88%; line-height: 1.5em; width: 22em; border: 1px solid #b2aaff; padding: 3px; text-align: left; {{{style|}}}&quot; |- ! style=&quot;font-size:108%; border-bottom:2px #5800a8 solid;&quot; colspan=&quot;2&quot; | [[Wikipedia:Featured article review#Featured article removal candidates|Featured article removal candidates]] &lt;br /&gt;{{view|template=Wikipedia:Featured article review/FAR urgents|edit}} &lt;!-- Example entry format: |- | [[Article name]] | [[Wikipedia:Featured article review/Article name/archiveN|Review it now]] --&gt; |- | [[The Hardy Boys]] | [[Wikipedia:Featured article review/The Hardy Boys/archive1|Review now]] |- | [[Tom Swift]] | [[Wikipedia:Featured article review/Tom Swift/archive1|Review now]] |- | [[Arthur (Or the Decline and Fall of the British Empire)]] | [[Wikipedia:Featured article review/Arthur (Or the Decline and Fall of the British Empire)/archive1|Review now]] |- | [[Bart Simpson]] | [[Wikipedia:Featured article review/Bart Simpson/archive1|Review now]] |- | [[Emmy Noether]] | [[Wikipedia:Featured article review/Emmy Noether/archive1|Review now]] |- | [[Isaac Brock]] | [[Wikipedia:Featured article review/Isaac Brock/archive2|Review now]] |- | [[Mariah Carey]] | [[Wikipedia:Featured article review/Mariah Carey/archive3|Review now]] |- | [[Concerto delle donne]] | [[Wikipedia:Featured article review/Concerto delle donne/archive1|Review now]] |}</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> <entry> <id>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review&diff=1259166824</id> <title>Wikipedia:Featured article review</title> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review&diff=1259166824"/> <updated>2024-11-23T19:04:34Z</updated> <summary type="html">Nikkimaria: arc <hr /> <div>{{Short description|Wikipedia project page for featured articles}} &lt;noinclude&gt;{{FAR-instructions}} &lt;!-- ---------------------------------------- --&gt; {{TOClimit|4}} == Featured article reviews == &lt;/noinclude&gt; &lt;!-- Insert new nominations below this line! --&gt; {{Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Toa_Payoh_ritual_murders/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Trembling Before G-d/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Ocean sunfish/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Boogeyman 2/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Tim Duncan/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Trafford Park/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Shoshone National Forest/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Lemurs of Madagascar (book)/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Pre-dreadnought battleship/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Northrop YF-23/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/1880 Republican National Convention/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Edward I of England/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Byzantine Empire/archive3}} == Featured article removal candidates == &lt;noinclude&gt;:''Place the most recent review at the top. '''If the nomination is just beginning, place under Featured Article Review, not here.'''''&lt;/noinclude&gt; {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/The Hardy Boys/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Tom Swift/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Arthur (Or the Decline and Fall of the British Empire)/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Bart Simpson/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Emmy Noether/archive1}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Isaac Brock/archive2}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Mariah Carey/archive3}} {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Concerto delle donne/archive1}} &lt;noinclude&gt; [[Category:Wikipedia featured content]] [[Category:Non-talk pages with subpages that are automatically signed]] {{User:Dispenser/Checklinks/config |interval=daily |generator=heading }}&lt;/noinclude&gt;</div></summary> <author><name>Nikkimaria</name></author> </entry> </feed>