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img{max-width:none!important}</style><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/40px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/60px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg/80px-Replacement_filing_cabinet.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="200" data-file-height="200"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text" style="text-align:center">This is an <b><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">archive</a></b> of past discussions about <a href="/wiki/Celts_(modern)" title="Celts (modern)">Celts (modern)</a>. <b>Do not edit the contents of this page.</b> If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the <a href="/wiki/Talk:Celts_(modern)" title="Talk:Celts (modern)">current talk page</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <p><br/> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence" data-mw-thread-id="h-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence-2007-05-11T12:27:00.000Z"><span id="Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_.26_Its_Prevalence"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence-2007-05-11T12:27:00.000Z"></span>Modern Celtic Phenotype & Its Prevalence<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence-2007-05-11T12:27:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gazh-2007-05-11T12:27:00.000Z-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence"></span>What would you believe the typical traits of the above to be? <a href="/wiki/User:Gazh" title="User:Gazh">gazh</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Celts_(modern)/Archive_(genetics)#c-Gazh-2007-05-11T12:27:00.000Z-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gazh-2007-05-11T12:27:00.000Z-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gazh-2007-05-11T12:27:00.000Z-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence"></span> </p><p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-King_Óðinn_The_Aesir-2007-05-11T22:20:00.000Z-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence"></span>In Scotland, a lot of people have lovely red hair. Celtic women have a distinctive mouth, so I've noticed <a href="/wiki/User:King_%C3%93%C3%B0inn_The_Aesir" title="User:King Óðinn The Aesir">King Óðinn The Aesir</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Celts_(modern)/Archive_(genetics)#c-King_Óðinn_The_Aesir-2007-05-11T22:20:00.000Z-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-King_Óðinn_The_Aesir-2007-05-11T22:20:00.000Z-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-King_Óðinn_The_Aesir-2007-05-11T22:20:00.000Z-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Garik-2007-05-12T12:03:00.000Z-King_Óðinn_The_Aesir-2007-05-11T22:20:00.000Z"></span>Ok, what about the large number of people with black hair found in 'Celtic' nations? <a href="/wiki/User:Gazh" title="User:Gazh">gazh</a> 09:47, 12 May 2007 (GMT) <dl><dd>Yes, I think this "Celts have red hair" thing is a myth. Apparently the surname Collie, which means "dark", or something along those lines, comes from a nickname given to Welsh people, whom the English found to be darker than themselves. Interestingly, I'm pretty certain I remember reading that this division of dark people in the West and fairer people in the East was noticed by Caesar, so it may have been there since before the Celts arrived, or maybe the darker people show pre-Celtic traits, while the fairer ones are more Celtic. Now, there may be a greater preponderance of red hair among Gaels – or at least Irish and Scottish people, which may be a different thing – or maybe just in Scotland. But I've heard it claimed in any case that the red hair found in the north of Britain comes from the Vikings (this may be equally untrue, of course). <a href="/wiki/User:Garik" title="User:Garik">garik</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Celts_(modern)/Archive_(genetics)#c-Garik-2007-05-12T12:03:00.000Z-King_Óðinn_The_Aesir-2007-05-11T22:20:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:03, 12 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Garik-2007-05-12T12:03:00.000Z-King_Óðinn_The_Aesir-2007-05-11T22:20:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Garik-2007-05-12T12:03:00.000Z-King_Óðinn_The_Aesir-2007-05-11T22:20:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gazh-2007-05-13T11:00:00.000Z-Garik-2007-05-12T12:03:00.000Z"></span>I wouldn't go with the Red hair is from Vikings theory as the gene is much more prevalent in Britain and Ireland than anywhere else. Heres a POV theory of mine; the original peoples of Britain and Ireland where an ethnic group of Red heads with the typical traits of very light skin and freckles etc. There is a possibility these traits evolved in Britain (this would maybe explain the concentration of those genes here), i would also suggest that when the Celts then came (black hair, dark eyes) to Britain these were two separate groups of people, maybe north/south or east/west. When the Germanic settlers arrived they maybe saw these groups as one? As they were speaking the same language at that time (not sure?) and were probably living in the same communities together. <a href="/wiki/User:Gazh" title="User:Gazh">Gazh</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Celts_(modern)/Archive_(genetics)#c-Gazh-2007-05-13T11:00:00.000Z-Garik-2007-05-12T12:03:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gazh-2007-05-13T11:00:00.000Z-Garik-2007-05-12T12:03:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gazh-2007-05-13T11:00:00.000Z-Garik-2007-05-12T12:03:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Garik-2007-05-13T12:31:00.000Z-Gazh-2007-05-13T11:00:00.000Z"></span>Yes, that's certainly as good a theory as many others I've heard. It could be reversed though: dark people first, then redder-haired Celts second. There is a tradition of describing the pre-Celtic inhabitants of Britain as Iberian – though I can't remember why! It may just be based on the assumption that the darker haired Britons came first, and where do people have dark hair and long skulls? Well, the Iberian Peninsula of course! I don't know. Maybe the hypothesis is better founded than that. The problem is, it's not just the dark ages that are murky; it's very hard to know what the barbarians were really doing in Europe during the Classical era too. <a href="/wiki/User:Garik" title="User:Garik">garik</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Celts_(modern)/Archive_(genetics)#c-Garik-2007-05-13T12:31:00.000Z-Gazh-2007-05-13T11:00:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Garik-2007-05-13T12:31:00.000Z-Gazh-2007-05-13T11:00:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Garik-2007-05-13T12:31:00.000Z-Gazh-2007-05-13T11:00:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-81.97.8.242-2007-05-13T18:43:00.000Z-Garik-2007-05-13T12:31:00.000Z"></span>Fair point, the thing is though if the Celts brought the Red hair to Britain there should be a significant amount of that gene in other places the Celts were previous, it appears the only places with a significant Red head (freckled, light skin variety) population is Britain and Ireland. There is some of that gene in Scandinavia, the Commonwealth Russia and even northern France but its not common, note that these countries are in a somewhat 'near' proximity of Britain and Ireland. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:81.97.8.242&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:81.97.8.242 (page does not exist)">81.97.8.242</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Celts_(modern)/Archive_(genetics)#c-81.97.8.242-2007-05-13T18:43:00.000Z-Garik-2007-05-13T12:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:43, 13 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-81.97.8.242-2007-05-13T18:43:00.000Z-Garik-2007-05-13T12:31:00.000Z"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-81.97.8.242-2007-05-13T18:43:00.000Z-Garik-2007-05-13T12:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Millbanks-2007-05-23T11:57:00.000Z-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence"></span>I'd heard that the famous "Celtic Red Hair" came from Viking invaders of parts of Scotland and Ireland. However, where I live (south east Ireland), it's associated with the Travellers. </p><p>Incidentally a friend of mine from Mayo (dark haired and blue eyed) said that when she moved to this part of Ireland she noticed how different the people looked. There is still, to a minor extent, a Viking heritage here: Waterford and Wexford were Viking towns and until 150 years ago the nordic dialect of Yola was spoken. <a href="/wiki/User:Millbanks" title="User:Millbanks">Millbanks</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Celts_(modern)/Archive_(genetics)#c-Millbanks-2007-05-23T11:57:00.000Z-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Millbanks-2007-05-23T11:57:00.000Z-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Millbanks-2007-05-23T11:57:00.000Z-Modern_Celtic_Phenotype_&_Its_Prevalence"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="British_Isles_Population_Genetic_(and_other_shite)" data-mw-thread-id="h-British_Isles_Population_Genetic_(and_other_shite)-2007-07-15T11:53:00.000Z"><span id="British_Isles_Population_Genetic_.28and_other_shite.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-British_Isles_Population_Genetic_(and_other_shite)-2007-07-15T11:53:00.000Z"></span>British Isles Population Genetic (and other shite)<span data-mw-comment-end="h-British_Isles_Population_Genetic_(and_other_shite)-2007-07-15T11:53:00.000Z"></span></h2><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7817"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Gazh-2007-07-15T11:53:00.000Z-British_Isles_Population_Genetic_(and_other_shite)"></span>http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7817</a> </p><p>The link above is quite interesting to read, usual stuff you have probably previously read, says that we are from the same make-up, cites the basques etc. </p><p>The follow up page is a Q&A, and the question about the lack of Celtic places names within England and something about a pre-Celtic divide got me to thinking that maybe England did not fall to the Celtic linguistic 'invasion' maybe we held out longer than our neighbours? and thus were never fully Celtic? ..I'm thinking along the lines of the Ancient Britons, afterall we don't really know about their culture and language, maybe many elements of that is prevelant in English? <a href="/wiki/User:Gazh" title="User:Gazh">Gazh</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Celts_(modern)/Archive_(genetics)#c-Gazh-2007-07-15T11:53:00.000Z-British_Isles_Population_Genetic_(and_other_shite)" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:53, 15 July 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Gazh-2007-07-15T11:53:00.000Z-British_Isles_Population_Genetic_(and_other_shite)"></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Gazh-2007-07-15T11:53:00.000Z-British_Isles_Population_Genetic_(and_other_shite)"></span> </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Celts_(modern)/Archive_(genetics)&oldid=468865427">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Celts_(modern)/Archive_(genetics)&oldid=468865427</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks catlinks-allhidden" data-mw="interface"></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 1 January 2012, at 01:40<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. 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