CINXE.COM

<!DOCTYPE html> <html class="client-nojs vector-feature-language-in-header-enabled vector-feature-language-in-main-page-header-disabled vector-feature-sticky-header-disabled vector-feature-page-tools-pinned-disabled vector-feature-toc-pinned-clientpref-1 vector-feature-main-menu-pinned-disabled vector-feature-limited-width-clientpref-1 vector-feature-limited-width-content-enabled vector-feature-custom-font-size-clientpref-1 vector-feature-appearance-pinned-clientpref-1 vector-feature-night-mode-enabled skin-theme-clientpref-day vector-toc-available" lang="en" dir="ltr"> <head> <meta charset="UTF-8"> <title>Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles - Wikipedia</title> <script>(function(){var className="client-js vector-feature-language-in-header-enabled vector-feature-language-in-main-page-header-disabled vector-feature-sticky-header-disabled vector-feature-page-tools-pinned-disabled vector-feature-toc-pinned-clientpref-1 vector-feature-main-menu-pinned-disabled vector-feature-limited-width-clientpref-1 vector-feature-limited-width-content-enabled vector-feature-custom-font-size-clientpref-1 vector-feature-appearance-pinned-clientpref-1 vector-feature-night-mode-enabled skin-theme-clientpref-day vector-toc-available";var cookie=document.cookie.match(/(?:^|; )enwikimwclientpreferences=([^;]+)/);if(cookie){cookie[1].split('%2C').forEach(function(pref){className=className.replace(new RegExp('(^| )'+pref.replace(/-clientpref-\w+$|[^\w-]+/g,'')+'-clientpref-\\w+( |$)'),'$1'+pref+'$2');});}document.documentElement.className=className;}());RLCONF={"wgBreakFrames":false,"wgSeparatorTransformTable":["",""],"wgDigitTransformTable":["",""],"wgDefaultDateFormat":"dmy", "wgMonthNames":["","January","February","March","April","May","June","July","August","September","October","November","December"],"wgRequestId":"21def070-59d5-45f3-8afc-8b4864ad05b7","wgCanonicalNamespace":"Project_talk","wgCanonicalSpecialPageName":false,"wgNamespaceNumber":5,"wgPageName":"Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles","wgTitle":"WikiProject Automobiles","wgCurRevisionId":1260110122,"wgRevisionId":1260110122,"wgArticleId":15969457,"wgIsArticle":true,"wgIsRedirect":false,"wgAction":"view","wgUserName":null,"wgUserGroups":["*"],"wgCategories":["Project-Class Automobile articles","NA-importance Automobile articles"],"wgPageViewLanguage":"en","wgPageContentLanguage":"en","wgPageContentModel":"wikitext","wgRelevantPageName":"Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles","wgRelevantArticleId":15969457,"wgIsProbablyEditable":true,"wgRelevantPageIsProbablyEditable":true,"wgRestrictionEdit":[],"wgRestrictionMove":[],"wgNoticeProject":"wikipedia","wgCiteReferencePreviewsActive":false, "wgFlaggedRevsParams":{"tags":{"status":{"levels":1}}},"wgMediaViewerOnClick":true,"wgMediaViewerEnabledByDefault":true,"wgPopupsFlags":0,"wgVisualEditor":{"pageLanguageCode":"en","pageLanguageDir":"ltr","pageVariantFallbacks":"en"},"wgMFDisplayWikibaseDescriptions":{"search":true,"watchlist":true,"tagline":false,"nearby":true},"wgWMESchemaEditAttemptStepOversample":false,"wgWMEPageLength":40000,"wgRelatedArticlesCompat":[],"wgEditSubmitButtonLabelPublish":true,"wgDiscussionToolsFeaturesEnabled":{"replytool":true,"newtopictool":true,"sourcemodetoolbar":true,"topicsubscription":false,"autotopicsub":false,"visualenhancements":false,"visualenhancements_reply":false,"visualenhancements_pageframe":false},"wgDiscussionToolsFallbackEditMode":"source","wgULSPosition":"interlanguage","wgULSisCompactLinksEnabled":false,"wgVector2022LanguageInHeader":true,"wgULSisLanguageSelectorEmpty":true,"wgCheckUserClientHintsHeadersJsApi":["brands","architecture","bitness","fullVersionList","mobile","model", "platform","platformVersion"],"GEHomepageSuggestedEditsEnableTopics":true,"wgGETopicsMatchModeEnabled":false,"wgGEStructuredTaskRejectionReasonTextInputEnabled":false,"wgGELevelingUpEnabledForUser":false};RLSTATE={"ext.globalCssJs.user.styles":"ready","site.styles":"ready","user.styles":"ready","ext.globalCssJs.user":"ready","user":"ready","user.options":"loading","ext.inputBox.styles":"ready","ext.discussionTools.init.styles":"ready","oojs-ui-core.styles":"ready","oojs-ui.styles.indicators":"ready","mediawiki.widgets.styles":"ready","oojs-ui-core.icons":"ready","skins.vector.search.codex.styles":"ready","skins.vector.styles":"ready","skins.vector.icons":"ready","jquery.makeCollapsible.styles":"ready","ext.wikimediamessages.styles":"ready","ext.visualEditor.desktopArticleTarget.noscript":"ready","ext.uls.interlanguage":"ready","ext.wikimediaBadges":"ready"};RLPAGEMODULES=["site","mediawiki.page.ready","jquery.makeCollapsible","mediawiki.toc","skins.vector.js","ext.centralNotice.geoIP", "ext.centralNotice.startUp","ext.gadget.ReferenceTooltips","ext.gadget.switcher","ext.urlShortener.toolbar","ext.centralauth.centralautologin","mmv.bootstrap","ext.popups","ext.visualEditor.desktopArticleTarget.init","ext.visualEditor.targetLoader","ext.echo.centralauth","ext.discussionTools.init","ext.eventLogging","ext.wikimediaEvents","ext.navigationTiming","ext.uls.interface","ext.cx.eventlogging.campaigns","ext.checkUser.clientHints"];</script> <script>(RLQ=window.RLQ||[]).push(function(){mw.loader.impl(function(){return["user.options@12s5i",function($,jQuery,require,module){mw.user.tokens.set({"patrolToken":"+\\","watchToken":"+\\","csrfToken":"+\\"}); }];});});</script> <link rel="stylesheet" href="/w/load.php?lang=en&modules=ext.discussionTools.init.styles%7Cext.inputBox.styles%7Cext.uls.interlanguage%7Cext.visualEditor.desktopArticleTarget.noscript%7Cext.wikimediaBadges%7Cext.wikimediamessages.styles%7Cjquery.makeCollapsible.styles%7Cmediawiki.widgets.styles%7Coojs-ui-core.icons%2Cstyles%7Coojs-ui.styles.indicators%7Cskins.vector.icons%2Cstyles%7Cskins.vector.search.codex.styles&only=styles&skin=vector-2022"> <script async="" src="/w/load.php?lang=en&modules=startup&only=scripts&raw=1&skin=vector-2022"></script> <meta name="ResourceLoaderDynamicStyles" content=""> <link rel="stylesheet" href="/w/load.php?lang=en&modules=site.styles&only=styles&skin=vector-2022"> <meta name="generator" content="MediaWiki 1.44.0-wmf.5"> <meta name="referrer" content="origin"> <meta name="referrer" content="origin-when-cross-origin"> <meta name="robots" content="max-image-preview:standard"> <meta name="format-detection" content="telephone=no"> <meta name="viewport" content="width=1120"> <meta property="og:title" content="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles - Wikipedia"> <meta property="og:type" content="website"> <link rel="preconnect" href="//upload.wikimedia.org"> <link rel="alternate" media="only screen and (max-width: 640px)" href="//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles"> <link rel="alternate" type="application/x-wiki" title="Edit this page" href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit"> <link rel="apple-touch-icon" href="/static/apple-touch/wikipedia.png"> <link rel="icon" href="/static/favicon/wikipedia.ico"> <link rel="search" type="application/opensearchdescription+xml" href="/w/rest.php/v1/search" title="Wikipedia (en)"> <link rel="EditURI" type="application/rsd+xml" href="//en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=rsd"> <link rel="canonical" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles"> <link rel="license" href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/deed.en"> <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" title="Wikipedia Atom feed" href="/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&feed=atom"> <link rel="dns-prefetch" href="//meta.wikimedia.org" /> <link rel="dns-prefetch" href="//login.wikimedia.org"> </head> <body class="ext-discussiontools-replytool-enabled ext-discussiontools-newtopictool-enabled ext-discussiontools-sourcemodetoolbar-enabled skin--responsive skin-vector skin-vector-search-vue mediawiki ltr sitedir-ltr mw-hide-empty-elt ns-5 ns-talk mw-editable page-Wikipedia_talk_WikiProject_Automobiles rootpage-Wikipedia_talk_WikiProject_Automobiles skin-vector-2022 action-view"><a class="mw-jump-link" href="#bodyContent">Jump to content</a> <div class="vector-header-container"> <header class="vector-header mw-header"> <div class="vector-header-start"> <nav class="vector-main-menu-landmark" aria-label="Site"> <div id="vector-main-menu-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown vector-main-menu-dropdown vector-button-flush-left vector-button-flush-right" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-main-menu-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-main-menu-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Main menu" > <label id="vector-main-menu-dropdown-label" for="vector-main-menu-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-menu mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-menu"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Main menu</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-main-menu-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> <div id="vector-main-menu" class="vector-main-menu vector-pinnable-element"> <div class="vector-pinnable-header vector-main-menu-pinnable-header vector-pinnable-header-unpinned" data-feature-name="main-menu-pinned" data-pinnable-element-id="vector-main-menu" data-pinned-container-id="vector-main-menu-pinned-container" data-unpinned-container-id="vector-main-menu-unpinned-container" > <div class="vector-pinnable-header-label">Main menu</div> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-pin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-main-menu.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-main-menu.unpin">hide</button> </div> <div id="p-navigation" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-navigation" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Navigation </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="n-mainpage-description" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Main_Page" title="Visit the main page [z]" accesskey="z"><span>Main page</span></a></li><li id="n-contents" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Contents" title="Guides to browsing Wikipedia"><span>Contents</span></a></li><li id="n-currentevents" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Current_events" title="Articles related to current events"><span>Current events</span></a></li><li id="n-randompage" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:Random" title="Visit a randomly selected article [x]" accesskey="x"><span>Random article</span></a></li><li id="n-aboutsite" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:About" title="Learn about Wikipedia and how it works"><span>About Wikipedia</span></a></li><li id="n-contactpage" class="mw-list-item"><a href="//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us" title="How to contact Wikipedia"><span>Contact us</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-interaction" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-interaction" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Contribute </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="n-help" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Help:Contents" title="Guidance on how to use and edit Wikipedia"><span>Help</span></a></li><li id="n-introduction" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Help:Introduction" title="Learn how to edit Wikipedia"><span>Learn to edit</span></a></li><li id="n-portal" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Community_portal" title="The hub for editors"><span>Community portal</span></a></li><li id="n-recentchanges" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:RecentChanges" title="A list of recent changes to Wikipedia [r]" accesskey="r"><span>Recent changes</span></a></li><li id="n-upload" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:File_upload_wizard" title="Add images or other media for use on Wikipedia"><span>Upload file</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> <a href="/wiki/Main_Page" class="mw-logo"> <img class="mw-logo-icon" src="/static/images/icons/wikipedia.png" alt="" aria-hidden="true" height="50" width="50"> <span class="mw-logo-container skin-invert"> <img class="mw-logo-wordmark" alt="Wikipedia" src="/static/images/mobile/copyright/wikipedia-wordmark-en.svg" style="width: 7.5em; height: 1.125em;"> <img class="mw-logo-tagline" alt="The Free Encyclopedia" src="/static/images/mobile/copyright/wikipedia-tagline-en.svg" width="117" height="13" style="width: 7.3125em; height: 0.8125em;"> </span> </a> </div> <div class="vector-header-end"> <div id="p-search" role="search" class="vector-search-box-vue vector-search-box-collapses vector-search-box-show-thumbnail vector-search-box-auto-expand-width vector-search-box"> <a href="/wiki/Special:Search" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only search-toggle" title="Search Wikipedia [f]" accesskey="f"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-search mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-search"></span> <span>Search</span> </a> <div class="vector-typeahead-search-container"> <div class="cdx-typeahead-search cdx-typeahead-search--show-thumbnail cdx-typeahead-search--auto-expand-width"> <form action="/w/index.php" id="searchform" class="cdx-search-input cdx-search-input--has-end-button"> <div id="simpleSearch" class="cdx-search-input__input-wrapper" data-search-loc="header-moved"> <div class="cdx-text-input cdx-text-input--has-start-icon"> <input class="cdx-text-input__input" type="search" name="search" placeholder="Search Wikipedia" aria-label="Search Wikipedia" autocapitalize="sentences" title="Search Wikipedia [f]" accesskey="f" id="searchInput" > <span class="cdx-text-input__icon cdx-text-input__start-icon"></span> </div> <input type="hidden" name="title" value="Special:Search"> </div> <button class="cdx-button cdx-search-input__end-button">Search</button> </form> </div> </div> </div> <nav class="vector-user-links vector-user-links-wide" aria-label="Personal tools"> <div class="vector-user-links-main"> <div id="p-vector-user-menu-preferences" class="vector-menu mw-portlet emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-vector-user-menu-userpage" class="vector-menu mw-portlet emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> <nav class="vector-appearance-landmark" aria-label="Appearance"> <div id="vector-appearance-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown " title="Change the appearance of the page's font size, width, and color" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-appearance-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-appearance-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Appearance" > <label id="vector-appearance-dropdown-label" for="vector-appearance-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-appearance mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-appearance"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Appearance</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-appearance-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> </div> </div> </div> </nav> <div id="p-vector-user-menu-notifications" class="vector-menu mw-portlet emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-vector-user-menu-overflow" class="vector-menu mw-portlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="pt-sitesupport-2" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item user-links-collapsible-item"><a data-mw="interface" href="https://donate.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:FundraiserRedirector?utm_source=donate&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_campaign=C13_en.wikipedia.org&uselang=en" class=""><span>Donate</span></a> </li> <li id="pt-createaccount-2" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item user-links-collapsible-item"><a data-mw="interface" href="/w/index.php?title=Special:CreateAccount&returnto=Wikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Automobiles" title="You are encouraged to create an account and log in; however, it is not mandatory" class=""><span>Create account</span></a> </li> <li id="pt-login-2" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item user-links-collapsible-item"><a data-mw="interface" href="/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=Wikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Automobiles" title="You're encouraged to log in; however, it's not mandatory. [o]" accesskey="o" class=""><span>Log in</span></a> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </div> <div id="vector-user-links-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown vector-user-menu vector-button-flush-right vector-user-menu-logged-out" title="Log in and more options" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-user-links-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-user-links-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Personal tools" > <label id="vector-user-links-dropdown-label" for="vector-user-links-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-ellipsis mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-ellipsis"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Personal tools</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="p-personal" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-personal user-links-collapsible-item" title="User menu" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="pt-sitesupport" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="https://donate.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:FundraiserRedirector?utm_source=donate&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_campaign=C13_en.wikipedia.org&uselang=en"><span>Donate</span></a></li><li id="pt-createaccount" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Special:CreateAccount&returnto=Wikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Automobiles" title="You are encouraged to create an account and log in; however, it is not mandatory"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-userAdd mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-userAdd"></span> <span>Create account</span></a></li><li id="pt-login" class="user-links-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=Wikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+Automobiles" title="You're encouraged to log in; however, it's not mandatory. [o]" accesskey="o"><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-logIn mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-logIn"></span> <span>Log in</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-user-menu-anon-editor" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-user-menu-anon-editor" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Pages for logged out editors <a href="/wiki/Help:Introduction" aria-label="Learn more about editing"><span>learn more</span></a> </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="pt-anoncontribs" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:MyContributions" title="A list of edits made from this IP address [y]" accesskey="y"><span>Contributions</span></a></li><li id="pt-anontalk" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:MyTalk" title="Discussion about edits from this IP address [n]" accesskey="n"><span>Talk</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </header> </div> <div class="mw-page-container"> <div class="mw-page-container-inner"> <div class="vector-sitenotice-container"> <div id="siteNotice"></div> </div> <div class="vector-column-start"> <div class="vector-main-menu-container"> <div id="mw-navigation"> <nav id="mw-panel" class="vector-main-menu-landmark" aria-label="Site"> <div id="vector-main-menu-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="vector-sticky-pinned-container"> <nav id="mw-panel-toc" aria-label="Contents" data-event-name="ui.sidebar-toc" class="mw-table-of-contents-container vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-toc-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> <div id="vector-toc" class="vector-toc vector-pinnable-element"> <div class="vector-pinnable-header vector-toc-pinnable-header vector-pinnable-header-pinned" data-feature-name="toc-pinned" data-pinnable-element-id="vector-toc" > <h2 class="vector-pinnable-header-label">Contents</h2> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-pin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-toc.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-toc.unpin">hide</button> </div> <ul class="vector-toc-contents" id="mw-panel-toc-list"> <li id="toc-mw-content-text" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a href="#" class="vector-toc-link"> <div class="vector-toc-text">(Top)</div> </a> </li> <li id="toc-Article_improvement" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Article_improvement"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">1</span> <span>Article improvement</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Article_improvement-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Recent_undiscussed_page_moves"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>Recent undiscussed page moves</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">36 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>Requested move at Talk:Fiat New 500#Requested move 22 September 2024</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Good_article_reassessment_for_Lexus_LS" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Good_article_reassessment_for_Lexus_LS"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Good article reassessment for Lexus LS</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Good_article_reassessment_for_Lexus_LS-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Convert_Template_unintentional_rounding" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Convert_Template_unintentional_rounding"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>Convert Template unintentional rounding</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Convert_Template_unintentional_rounding-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Adding_one's_own_photos?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Adding_one's_own_photos?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>Adding one's own photos?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Adding_one's_own_photos?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Proposed_for_deletion_(PROD):_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Proposed_for_deletion_(PROD):_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>Proposed for deletion (PROD): U.S. Automobile Production Figures</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Proposed_for_deletion_(PROD):_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_§_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_§_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>Discussion at Talk:Isetta § Was the Isetta manufactured or not in Argentina?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_§_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>EV battery suppliers added to WikiProject?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>Requested move at Talk:Trim level (automotive)#Requested move 28 November 2024</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <nav aria-label="Contents" class="vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-titlebar-toc vector-button-flush-left" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Toggle the table of contents" > <label id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-label" for="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-listBullet mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-listBullet"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Toggle the table of contents</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> </div> </div> </div> </nav> <h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading mw-first-heading"><span class="mw-page-title-namespace">Wikipedia talk</span><span class="mw-page-title-separator">:</span><span class="mw-page-title-main">WikiProject Automobiles</span></h1> <div id="p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown mw-portlet mw-portlet-lang mw-portlet-lang-icon-only" > <input type="checkbox" id="p-lang-btn-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox mw-interlanguage-selector-empty" aria-label="This article exist only in this language. Add the article for other languages" > <label id="p-lang-btn-label" for="p-lang-btn-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only mw-portlet-lang-heading-empty" aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-language mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-language"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Add languages</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div class="mw-portlet-empty-language-selector-body"> Page contents not supported in other languages. </div> </div> </div> </header> <div class="vector-page-toolbar"> <div class="vector-page-toolbar-container"> <div id="left-navigation"> <nav aria-label="Namespaces"> <div id="p-associated-pages" class="vector-menu vector-menu-tabs mw-portlet mw-portlet-associated-pages" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="ca-nstab-project" class="vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Automobiles" title="View the project page [c]" accesskey="c"><span>Project page</span></a></li><li id="ca-talk" class="selected vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles" rel="discussion" title="Discuss improvements to the content page [t]" accesskey="t"><span>Talk</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="vector-variants-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown emptyPortlet" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-variants-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-variants-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Change language variant" > <label id="vector-variants-dropdown-label" for="vector-variants-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet" aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">English</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="p-variants" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-variants emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> <div id="right-navigation" class="vector-collapsible"> <nav aria-label="Views"> <div id="p-views" class="vector-menu vector-menu-tabs mw-portlet mw-portlet-views" > <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="ca-view" class="selected vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles"><span>Read</span></a></li><li id="ca-edit" class="istalk vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit" title="Edit this page [e]" accesskey="e"><span>Edit</span></a></li><li id="ca-addsection" class="vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit&section=new" title="Start a new section [+]" accesskey="+"><span>Add topic</span></a></li><li id="ca-history" class="vector-tab-noicon mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=history" title="Past revisions of this page [h]" accesskey="h"><span>View history</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> <nav class="vector-page-tools-landmark" aria-label="Page tools"> <div id="vector-page-tools-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-tools-dropdown" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-page-tools-dropdown-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-page-tools-dropdown" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Tools" > <label id="vector-page-tools-dropdown-label" for="vector-page-tools-dropdown-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet" aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Tools</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-page-tools-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> <div id="vector-page-tools" class="vector-page-tools vector-pinnable-element"> <div class="vector-pinnable-header vector-page-tools-pinnable-header vector-pinnable-header-unpinned" data-feature-name="page-tools-pinned" data-pinnable-element-id="vector-page-tools" data-pinned-container-id="vector-page-tools-pinned-container" data-unpinned-container-id="vector-page-tools-unpinned-container" > <div class="vector-pinnable-header-label">Tools</div> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-pin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-page-tools.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-page-tools.unpin">hide</button> </div> <div id="p-cactions" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-cactions emptyPortlet vector-has-collapsible-items" title="More options" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Actions </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="ca-more-view" class="selected vector-more-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles"><span>Read</span></a></li><li id="ca-more-edit" class="istalk vector-more-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit" title="Edit this page [e]" accesskey="e"><span>Edit</span></a></li><li id="ca-more-addsection" class="vector-more-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit&section=new"><span>Add topic</span></a></li><li id="ca-more-history" class="vector-more-collapsible-item mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=history"><span>View history</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-tb" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-tb" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> General </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="t-whatlinkshere" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles" title="List of all English Wikipedia pages containing links to this page [j]" accesskey="j"><span>What links here</span></a></li><li id="t-recentchangeslinked" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:RecentChangesLinked/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles" rel="nofollow" title="Recent changes in pages linked from this page [k]" accesskey="k"><span>Related changes</span></a></li><li id="t-upload" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:File_Upload_Wizard" title="Upload files [u]" accesskey="u"><span>Upload file</span></a></li><li id="t-specialpages" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/wiki/Special:SpecialPages" title="A list of all special pages [q]" accesskey="q"><span>Special pages</span></a></li><li id="t-permalink" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&oldid=1260110122" title="Permanent link to this revision of this page"><span>Permanent link</span></a></li><li id="t-info" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=info" title="More information about this page"><span>Page information</span></a></li><li id="t-urlshortener" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Special:UrlShortener&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_Automobiles"><span>Get shortened URL</span></a></li><li id="t-urlshortener-qrcode" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Special:QrCode&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_Automobiles"><span>Download QR code</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-coll-print_export" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-coll-print_export" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> Print/export </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> <li id="coll-download-as-rl" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Special:DownloadAsPdf&page=Wikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_Automobiles&action=show-download-screen" title="Download this page as a PDF file"><span>Download as PDF</span></a></li><li id="t-print" class="mw-list-item"><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&printable=yes" title="Printable version of this page [p]" accesskey="p"><span>Printable version</span></a></li> </ul> </div> </div> <div id="p-wikibase-otherprojects" class="vector-menu mw-portlet mw-portlet-wikibase-otherprojects emptyPortlet" > <div class="vector-menu-heading"> In other projects </div> <div class="vector-menu-content"> <ul class="vector-menu-content-list"> </ul> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> </div> <div class="vector-column-end"> <div class="vector-sticky-pinned-container"> <nav class="vector-page-tools-landmark" aria-label="Page tools"> <div id="vector-page-tools-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> </div> </nav> <nav class="vector-appearance-landmark" aria-label="Appearance"> <div id="vector-appearance-pinned-container" class="vector-pinned-container"> <div id="vector-appearance" class="vector-appearance vector-pinnable-element"> <div class="vector-pinnable-header vector-appearance-pinnable-header vector-pinnable-header-pinned" data-feature-name="appearance-pinned" data-pinnable-element-id="vector-appearance" data-pinned-container-id="vector-appearance-pinned-container" data-unpinned-container-id="vector-appearance-unpinned-container" > <div class="vector-pinnable-header-label">Appearance</div> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-pin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-appearance.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-appearance.unpin">hide</button> </div> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div id="bodyContent" class="vector-body" aria-labelledby="firstHeading" data-mw-ve-target-container> <div class="vector-body-before-content"> <div class="mw-indicators"> </div> <div id="siteSub" class="noprint">From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</div> </div> <div id="contentSub"><div id="mw-content-subtitle"></div></div> <div id="mw-content-text" class="mw-body-content"><div class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237879475">.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:#f8eaba;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-invalid-type{text-align:center}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 10%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;width:238px}}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox{background-color:#2e2505}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{background-color:#310402}}body.skin--responsive .mw-parser-output table.tmbox img{max-width:none!important}</style><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice skiptotalk noprint" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1135323948">body.skin-vector-2022 .mw-parser-output .skiptotalk,body.mw-mf .mw-parser-output .skiptotalk{display:none}.mw-parser-output .skiptotalk a{display:block;text-align:center;font-style:italic;line-height:1.9}.mw-parser-output .skiptotalk a::before,.mw-parser-output .skiptotalk a::after{content:"↓";font-size:larger;line-height:1.6;font-style:normal}.mw-parser-output .skiptotalk a::before{float:left}.mw-parser-output .skiptotalk a::after{float:right}</style><a href="#toc">Skip to table of contents</a></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1230750088">.mw-parser-output .talkheader{text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-body{display:flex}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{display:flex;align-items:center;padding:0.1em}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help{flex:2 1 auto;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:var(--background-color-base,#ffffff);color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies+.talkheader-policies{border-left:1px solid #c0c090}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{flex:0 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts>*{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help ul,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies ul{margin:0.1em 0.8em 0 1.6em;text-align:left}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .talkheader{min-width:80%}}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice talkheader plainlinks" id="talkheader" style="border-collapse: separate;"><tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom: 1px solid #c0c090; font-weight: bold;">This is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines">talk page</a> for discussing <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Automobiles" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Automobiles">WikiProject Automobiles</a> and anything related to its purposes and tasks.<br/></td> </tr> <tr> <td> <div class="talkheader-body"> <div class="talkheader-help"> <ul><li>Put new text under old text. <strong><a href="/wiki/Special:NewSection/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles" title="Special:NewSection/Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles">Click here to start a new topic.</a></strong></li> <li>New to Wikipedia? Welcome! <a href="/wiki/Help:Introduction" title="Help:Introduction">Learn to edit</a>; <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Questions" title="Wikipedia:Questions">get help</a>.</li></ul> </div> <div class="talkheader-policies"> <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith" title="Wikipedia:Assume good faith">Assume good faith</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility" title="Wikipedia:Civility">Be polite</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks" title="Wikipedia:No personal attacks">avoid personal attacks</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers" title="Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers">Be welcoming to newcomers</a></li> <li>Seek <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests" title="Wikipedia:Dispute resolution requests">dispute resolution</a> if needed</li></ul> </div> </div> </td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><b><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">Archives</a>:</b> <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_index" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive index">Index</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_1" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_2" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 2">2</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_3" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 3">3</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_4" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 4">4</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_5" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 5">5</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_6" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 6">6</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_7" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 7">7</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_8" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 8">8</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_9" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 9">9</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_10" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 10">10</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_11" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 11">11</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_12" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 12">12</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_13" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 13">13</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_14" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 14">14</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_15" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 15">15</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_16" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 16">16</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_17" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 17">17</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_18" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 18">18</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_19" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 19">19</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_20" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 20">20</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_21" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 21">21</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_22" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 22">22</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_23" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 23">23</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_24" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 24">24</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_25" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 25">25</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_26" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 26">26</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_27" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 27">27</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_28" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 28">28</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_29" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 29">29</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_30" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 30">30</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_31" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 31">31</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_32" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 32">32</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_33" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 33">33</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_34" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 34">34</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_35" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 35">35</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_36" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 36">36</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_37" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 37">37</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_38" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 38">38</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_39" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 39">39</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_40" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 40">40</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_41" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 41">41</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_42" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 42">42</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_43" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 43">43</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_44" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 44">44</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_45" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 45">45</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_46" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 46">46</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_47" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 47">47</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_48" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 48">48</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_49" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 49">49</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_50" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 50">50</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_51" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 51">51</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_52" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 52">52</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_53" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 53">53</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_54" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 54">54</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_55" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 55">55</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_56" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 56">56</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_57" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 57">57</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_58" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 58">58</a>, <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_59" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 59">59</a><span style="position: relative; top: 2px; float: right; font-size: 90%; margin-left: 1em;"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1038841319">.mw-parser-output .tooltip-dotted{border-bottom:1px dotted;cursor:help}</style><span class="rt-commentedText tooltip tooltip-dotted" title="Discussions with timestamps are automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III after 60 days of inactivity when more than 4 threads are present.">Auto-archiving period</span>: <b>2 months</b> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page#Automated_archiving" title="Help:Archiving a talk page"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/16px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/24px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/32px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"/></a></span></span></td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 0;"><div> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/" name="prefix"/> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </div></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <p class="mw-empty-elt"> </p> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-notice" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:WikipediaSignpostIcon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/WikipediaSignpostIcon.svg/40px-WikipediaSignpostIcon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="48" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/WikipediaSignpostIcon.svg/60px-WikipediaSignpostIcon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/WikipediaSignpostIcon.svg/80px-WikipediaSignpostIcon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="46" data-file-height="55"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><b>WikiProject Automobiles</b> was featured in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2011-09-26/WikiProject_report" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2011-09-26/WikiProject report"><b>a WikiProject Report</b></a> in the <i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost" title="Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost">Signpost</a></i> on 26 September 2011.</td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><table class="plainlinks tmbox tmbox-content tmbox-not-a-forum" role="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b4/Ambox_important.svg/40px-Ambox_important.svg.png" decoding="async" width="40" height="40" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b4/Ambox_important.svg/60px-Ambox_important.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b4/Ambox_important.svg/80px-Ambox_important.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="40" data-file-height="40"/></span></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This page is <strong><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#FORUM" title="Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not">not a forum</a></strong> for general discussion about automobiles. Any such comments <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#EDIT" title="Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines">may be removed</a> or <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Refactoring_talk_pages" title="Wikipedia:Refactoring talk pages">refactored</a>. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about automobiles at the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk" title="Wikipedia:Reference desk">Reference desk</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1243927654">.mw-parser-output .banner-shell{border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:4px}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-header{text-align:center;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{padding:2px 4px;background:#fffaef;color:inherit;border:1px dotted gray}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{background:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{background:#2e2505}}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell .tmbox{margin:2px 0;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell .tmbox.mbox-small{line-height:1.5em;font-size:100%}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner .banner-shell-outside{display:none}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .wpbs{width:80%}}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .assess{width:60px;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-header{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em 0.25em 0}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-header{display:table-row}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb:not(.mw-collapsed) .wpb-header-icon a{display:none}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice banner-shell wpbs mw-collapsible"><tbody><tr><td class="assess"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_project_class.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="Project page"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Symbol_project_class.svg/35px-Symbol_project_class.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="36" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Symbol_project_class.svg/53px-Symbol_project_class.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Symbol_project_class.svg/70px-Symbol_project_class.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span></td><td class="banner-shell-header" style="text-align:left;font-weight:normal">This project page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.<br/>It is of interest to the following <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject">WikiProjects</a>:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="banner-shell-inner outercollapse"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1259570071">.mw-parser-output .wpb-header,.mw-parser-output .wpb-metadata,.mw-parser-output .wpb-iefix{display:none}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-name{text-align:right;padding:0.3em 1em 0.3em 0.3em;width:50%;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-assessment{text-align:left;width:50%;padding:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-combined{text-align:left;padding:0.3em 0.3em 0.3em 0;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-bubbles{border-radius:.5em;padding:0 .3em;margin-left:0.5em;white-space:nowrap;font-weight:normal;color:black}.mw-parser-output .wpb-nested-task-force{font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-icon{width:50px;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#F5F5F5;border-width:1px;width:500px}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main{background-color:#FFFAEF;padding:3px 0 3px 0.7em}.mw-parser-output .wpb .wpb-main{padding:3px 5px}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#FFFAEF}.mw-parser-output .wpb-main>table{background-color:transparent;border:none;padding:0;width:100%;border-spacing:0}.mw-parser-output .wpb .wpb-image{padding:2px 0}.mw-parser-output .wpb-collapsed-head{text-align:left;padding:0.2em 2px 0.2em 0}.mw-parser-output .wpb-collapsed-notes{padding:0}.mw-parser-output .wpb-collapsed-notes>table{width:100%;background-color:transparent}.mw-parser-output .wpb .wpb-gutter{padding:2px 0 0 0}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#f8eaba;border:none}.mw-parser-output .wpb-table{table-layout:fixed}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .wpb{min-width:80%}}.mw-parser-output .assess{font-weight:bold;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;color:black}.mw-parser-output .import-top{background-color:#FFBFFF}.mw-parser-output .import-high{background-color:#FFCCFF}.mw-parser-output .import-mid{background-color:#FFD9FF}.mw-parser-output .import-low{background-color:#FFE7FF}.mw-parser-output .import-bottom{background-color:#FFEBFF}.mw-parser-output .import-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .import-unknown{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .class-fa,.mw-parser-output .class-fl,.mw-parser-output .class-fm{background-color:#BED3FF}.mw-parser-output .class-a,.mw-parser-output .class-al{background-color:#C0FFFF}.mw-parser-output .class-ga{background-color:#C0FFC0}.mw-parser-output .class-b,.mw-parser-output .class-bl{background-color:#DFFFBF}.mw-parser-output .class-c,.mw-parser-output .class-cl{background-color:#FFFFBE}.mw-parser-output .class-start{background-color:#FFDBBF}.mw-parser-output .class-stub,.mw-parser-output .class-sl{background-color:#FFC0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-list{background-color:#D2C0FF}.mw-parser-output .class-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .class-category{background-color:#FFDB58}.mw-parser-output .class-disambig{background-color:#00FA9A}.mw-parser-output .class-draft{background-color:#E7B198}.mw-parser-output .class-file{background-color:#DDCCFF}.mw-parser-output .class-future{background-color:#B4BBFF}.mw-parser-output .class-portal{background-color:#DDB1BC}.mw-parser-output .class-project{background-color:#C0C090}.mw-parser-output .class-redirect{background-color:#C0C0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-sia{background-color:#E9DAFF}.mw-parser-output .class-user{background-color:#DDD06A}.mw-parser-output .class-template{background-color:#FBCEB1}.mw-parser-output .class-unassessed{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .conflict{border:0.2em solid red}.mw-parser-output .inactive-wikiproject .wpb-header-bubbles{color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:HondaS2000-004.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/HondaS2000-004.png/35px-HondaS2000-004.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="18" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/HondaS2000-004.png/53px-HondaS2000-004.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/HondaS2000-004.png/70px-HondaS2000-004.png 2x" data-file-width="3700" data-file-height="1900"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Automobiles" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Automobiles">Automobiles</a> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:HondaS2000-004.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/HondaS2000-004.png/100px-HondaS2000-004.png" decoding="async" width="100" height="51" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/HondaS2000-004.png/150px-HondaS2000-004.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/HondaS2000-004.png/200px-HondaS2000-004.png 2x" data-file-width="3700" data-file-height="1900"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1259569809">.mw-parser-output .portalbox{padding:0;margin:0.5em 0;display:table;box-sizing:border-box;max-width:175px;list-style:none}.mw-parser-output .portalborder{border:1px solid var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:0.1em;background:var(--background-color-neutral-subtle,#f8f9fa)}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-entry{display:table-row;font-size:85%;line-height:110%;height:1.9em;font-style:italic;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-image{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .portalbox-link{display:table-cell;padding:0.2em 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em;vertical-align:middle}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .portalleft{clear:left;float:left;margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0}.mw-parser-output .portalright{clear:right;float:right;margin:0.5em 0 0.5em 1em}}</style><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Sportcar_sergio_luiz_ara_01.svg/32px-Sportcar_sergio_luiz_ara_01.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="12" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Sportcar_sergio_luiz_ara_01.svg/48px-Sportcar_sergio_luiz_ara_01.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Sportcar_sergio_luiz_ara_01.svg/64px-Sportcar_sergio_luiz_ara_01.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="219"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Cars" title="Portal:Cars">Cars portal</a></span></li></ul>This page is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Automobiles" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Automobiles">WikiProject Automobiles</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Automobile" class="mw-redirect" title="Automobile">automobiles</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a class="mw-selflink selflink">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Automobiles</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Automobiles</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Automobiles</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Automobile articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Article_improvement" data-mw-thread-id="h-Article_improvement"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Article_improvement"></span>Article improvement<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Article_improvement"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Article improvement"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>I feel, one of the key article of this wikiproject, <a href="/wiki/Automotive_engineering" title="Automotive engineering">Automotive engineering</a> needs a good revision and copy edit. I would love to help in the process as much as viable. Being a civil engineering student I am unknown of some key terms. In addition, i see the need of forming a new article <a href="/wiki/Automobile_engineering" class="mw-redirect" title="Automobile engineering">Automobile engineering</a> much famous in South asian countries including <a href="/wiki/Nepal" title="Nepal">Nepal</a> and <a href="/wiki/India" title="India">India</a> to flourish the information regarding the subject and make the area of study open to fellow readers.<a href="/wiki/User:Franked2004" title="User:Franked2004">Franked2004</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Franked2004" title="User talk:Franked2004">talk</a>) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Recent_undiscussed_page_moves" data-mw-thread-id="h-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves-20240902164300"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves-20240902164300"></span>Recent undiscussed page moves<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves-20240902164300"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Recent undiscussed page moves"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sable232-20240902164300-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves"></span>For everyone's information, <a href="/wiki/BrightDrop_Zevo" class="mw-redirect" title="BrightDrop Zevo">BrightDrop Zevo</a> was recently moved to <a href="/wiki/Chevrolet_BrightDrop" title="Chevrolet BrightDrop">Chevrolet BrightDrop</a>, and <a href="/wiki/GMC_(automobile)" title="GMC (automobile)">GMC (automobile)</a> was recently moved to <a href="/wiki/GMC_(marque)" class="mw-redirect" title="GMC (marque)">GMC (marque)</a>. The former appears to be at least technically correct, as GM recently announced that they're now selling those vans as Chevrolets. The latter, the previous title was the result of an RM, but that discussion was from 2011. --<a href="/wiki/User:Sable232" title="User:Sable232">Sable232</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sable232" title="User talk:Sable232">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Sable232-20240902164300-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sable232-20240902164300-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sable232-20240902164300-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves"></span> </p> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000-Sable232-20240902164300"></span>For the latter, I think there should be a concistency within the project. Why does Pontiac, Plymouth, Mercury, Envoy, Geo use "(automobile)" but Mini, Rover, Sterling, Smart uses "marque"? Why MG is "MG cars"? Why is <a href="/wiki/Chrysler_(brand)" title="Chrysler (brand)">Chrysler (brand)</a> named like that, is it because "marque" is associated with British English? Then why are we using "(marque)" for Chinese brands? I think this should get sorted out...</dd></dl></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Andra_Febrian" title="User:Andra Febrian">Andra Febrian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andra_Febrian" title="User talk:Andra Febrian">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000-Sable232-20240902164300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000-Sable232-20240902164300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000-Sable232-20240902164300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240903184200-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000"></span>It probably isn't possible to get a project-wide and trans-Atlantic consensus. If it was easy it would already have been done.</dd> <dd>You might have already seen the various opposing thoughts in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_59#"Marque"_and_WP:PEACOCK" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Archive 59">this recent discussion</a>, that you started. <a href="/wiki/User:Rally_Wonk" title="User:Rally Wonk">Rally Wonk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rally_Wonk" title="User talk:Rally Wonk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Rally_Wonk-20240903184200-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:42, 3 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240903184200-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rally_Wonk-20240903184200-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andra_Febrian-20240904071200-Rally_Wonk-20240903184200"></span>I don't mind a regional consensus. If the decision is to use automobile in America and marque for RoW, then so be it. But this time we can't really say that the title "GMC (marque)" is an inappropriate title, other than the fact that it is an undiscussed move. <a href="/wiki/User:Andra_Febrian" title="User:Andra Febrian">Andra Febrian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andra_Febrian" title="User talk:Andra Febrian">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Andra_Febrian-20240904071200-Rally_Wonk-20240903184200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:12, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andra_Febrian-20240904071200-Rally_Wonk-20240903184200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andra_Febrian-20240904071200-Rally_Wonk-20240903184200"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240904154600-Andra_Febrian-20240904071200"></span>I'd support reversion to (automobile) if necessary. However, I think <a href="/w/index.php?title=GMC_(automobile_brand)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="GMC (automobile brand) (page does not exist)">GMC (automobile brand)</a>, <a href="/w/index.php?title=GMC_(automobile_marque)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="GMC (automobile marque) (page does not exist)">GMC (automobile marque)</a> or <a href="/wiki/GMC_(automobile_manufacturer)" class="mw-redirect" title="GMC (automobile manufacturer)">GMC (automobile manufacturer)</a> <small>(whatever the article needs to be)</small> is better. <a href="/wiki/User:Rally_Wonk" title="User:Rally Wonk">Rally Wonk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rally_Wonk" title="User talk:Rally Wonk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Rally_Wonk-20240904154600-Andra_Febrian-20240904071200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:46, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240904154600-Andra_Febrian-20240904071200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rally_Wonk-20240904154600-Andra_Febrian-20240904071200"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adriazeri-20240904082300-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000"></span>I would recommend using natural disambiguators for marques that have them (e.g. Jaguar Cars or MG Motors).</dd> <dd>Then: <ul><li><b>Marque</b> in brackets for British and European marques which need to be disambiguated and don’t have any other possible way which would follow <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Commonname" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Commonname">Wikipedia:Commonname</a>.</li> <li><b>Brand</b> in brackets for North American marques with the same conditions as above.</li></ul></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Adriazeri" title="User:Adriazeri">Adriazeri</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Adriazeri" title="User talk:Adriazeri">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Adriazeri-20240904082300-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adriazeri-20240904082300-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adriazeri-20240904082300-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andra_Febrian-20240904084900-Adriazeri-20240904082300"></span>What if there's another brand with the same name? For example, <a href="/wiki/Mercury" class="mw-disambig" title="Mercury">Mercury</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Andra_Febrian" title="User:Andra Febrian">Andra Febrian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andra_Febrian" title="User talk:Andra Febrian">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Andra_Febrian-20240904084900-Adriazeri-20240904082300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:49, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andra_Febrian-20240904084900-Adriazeri-20240904082300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andra_Febrian-20240904084900-Adriazeri-20240904082300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adriazeri-20240904085200-Andra_Febrian-20240904084900"></span>It’d need to be <b>car brand</b> in that specific circumstance then. <a href="/wiki/User:Adriazeri" title="User:Adriazeri">Adriazeri</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Adriazeri" title="User talk:Adriazeri">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Adriazeri-20240904085200-Andra_Febrian-20240904084900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:52, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adriazeri-20240904085200-Andra_Febrian-20240904084900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adriazeri-20240904085200-Andra_Febrian-20240904084900"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adriazeri-20240904081800-Sable232-20240902164300"></span>I personally use British English so I recognise marque as being in respect to an automobile brand. If that’s not agreeable to speakers of North American English, or it’s not considered appropriate for use on a North American auto marque. Then brand would make sense. <a href="/wiki/User:Adriazeri" title="User:Adriazeri">Adriazeri</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Adriazeri" title="User talk:Adriazeri">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Adriazeri-20240904081800-Sable232-20240902164300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adriazeri-20240904081800-Sable232-20240902164300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adriazeri-20240904081800-Sable232-20240902164300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240904163600-Adriazeri-20240904081800"></span>Marque can still be used for other vehicles and even products nothing to do with transport: <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.boatinternational.com/luxury-yacht-life/owners-experiences/on-board-with-baltic-yachts-owner-hans-georg-nader--32303">yachts</a>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.mellorbus.com/latest-news/senior-management-moves-at-mellor-and-treka-bus-as-woodall-nicholson-develops-technology-capability/">busses</a>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://riflemags.co.uk/tikka-magazines/">rifles</a>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.asiafinancial.com/western-fashion-brands-brush-aside-china-tirade-chart-of-the-day">shoes</a>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.vanwall1958.com/news/the-vanwall-conway-stewart-fountain-pen">pens</a>, <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://us.fashionnetwork.com/news/Cartier-ceo-cyrille-vigneron-on-managing-change-on-multiple-fronts,1160548.html">jewellery</a> ... and so on. Although, it's fair that it isn't widely used.</dd> <dd>Marque is more accurate than brand because it's the brand of the maker/manufacturer when models/model ranges, trim levels, performance specs, technologies are also usually always brands. <a href="/wiki/Subaru_Impreza_WRX_STI" title="Subaru Impreza WRX STI">Subaru Impreza WRX STI</a> has four brands in the name, whereas the manufacturer is (or was) <a href="/wiki/Fuji_Heavy_Industries" class="mw-redirect" title="Fuji Heavy Industries">Fuji Heavy Industries</a>. <a href="/wiki/DS_Automobiles" title="DS Automobiles">DS</a> is an automobile marque spun off from the <a href="/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn#DS_brand" title="Citroën">Citroen DS</a> sub-brand which was inspired by the <a href="/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS" title="Citroën DS">Citroën DS</a> model. All brands. I'm not sure what GMC is, but the problem there is within the content of the article, not the disam naming. <a href="/wiki/User:Rally_Wonk" title="User:Rally Wonk">Rally Wonk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rally_Wonk" title="User talk:Rally Wonk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Rally_Wonk-20240904163600-Adriazeri-20240904081800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:36, 4 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240904163600-Adriazeri-20240904081800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rally_Wonk-20240904163600-Adriazeri-20240904081800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20240906000500-Rally_Wonk-20240904163600"></span>Marque, make and brand are just synonyms. Different countries had preferences for each but at the international level they mean the same thing. And just like how some companies own other countries, you can have marques, makes and brands owning other marques, makes and brands. Beware of trying to count <a href="/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F" title="How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?">how many angels can dance on the badge of a car</a>. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Stepho-wrs-20240906000500-Rally_Wonk-20240904163600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:05, 6 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20240906000500-Rally_Wonk-20240904163600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20240906000500-Rally_Wonk-20240904163600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700-Stepho-wrs-20240906000500"></span>They're not all synonyms, unless you can show an example of <i>product </i>branding being described as a marque. Marques are branding of the manufacturer/seller. The selling manufacturer is not always the maker manufacturer and related ownership is not always the case. Brands don't own anything, so marques cannot own other marques, but sometimes the marque is synonymous with the manufacturer/company name, e.g. Ford.</dd> <dd>I've doubts to what 'make' is commonly used for, but see <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://overfinch.com/models/range-rover">this coachbuilder example</a>. For me, the marque is Overfinch, the make is Range-Rover, the vehicle manufacturer is Jaguar Land Rover Ltd, with branded product options like Aurora, Shadow Chrome, Centurion and Cyclone. As sold straight from JLR, a Range-Rover is then the marque. I wouldn't call JLR Ltd a brand, but the rest all are.</dd> <dd>If this is not important to you then I think that's a shame. I think it should matter to anybody contributing to improving articles. <a href="/wiki/User:Rally_Wonk" title="User:Rally Wonk">Rally Wonk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rally_Wonk" title="User talk:Rally Wonk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700-Stepho-wrs-20240906000500" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:27, 6 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700-Stepho-wrs-20240906000500"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700-Stepho-wrs-20240906000500"></span> <dl><dd><a href="/wiki/Marque" class="mw-redirect" title="Marque"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20240906140000-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700"></span>marque</a> redirects to <a href="/wiki/Brand" title="Brand">brand</a>. There it mentions branding irons (used to mark ownership of cattle). Also mentions making marks on pottery to show who made it.</dd> <dd>www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/marque says "a well-known make of a product, especially a car, that is expensive and fashionable". Clicking on "Word Origin" says "early 20th cent.: from French, back-formation from marquer ‘to brand’, of Scandinavian origin."</dd> <dd>www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/marque says "a well-known make of a product, especially a car, that is expensive and fashionable".</dd> <dd>www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/marque says "a brand or make of a product (such as a sports car)"</dd> <dd>This shows that all 3 mean the same thing. It's just that certain regions prefer to use one over the other in certain circumstances (eg, in Britain they like to use French words for fancy stuff and English words for common stuff). However, other regions choose different circumstances, making the distinction useless in an international encyclopedia.</dd> <dd>I find it a shame that we waste time on trivialities instead of actually improving things. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Stepho-wrs-20240906140000-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:00, 6 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20240906140000-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20240906140000-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240906154600-Stepho-wrs-20240906140000"></span>I agree it is timewasting to continue this discussion with you. There's nothing I can possibly say that will return value to my efforts. <a href="/wiki/User:Rally_Wonk" title="User:Rally Wonk">Rally Wonk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rally_Wonk" title="User talk:Rally Wonk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Rally_Wonk-20240906154600-Stepho-wrs-20240906140000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:46, 6 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240906154600-Stepho-wrs-20240906140000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rally_Wonk-20240906154600-Stepho-wrs-20240906140000"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20240906141400-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700"></span>We had the same discussion in 2011: <a class="external free" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_29">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles/Archive_29</a> <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Stepho-wrs-20240906141400-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:14, 6 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20240906141400-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20240906141400-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adriazeri-20240906174100-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700"></span>I think you’re over complicating things: <ul><li><b>Brand</b> or <b>marque</b> simply refers to the manufacturer or the brand that the manufacturer operates under.</li> <li><b>Model</b> refers to the automobile itself</li></ul></dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Adriazeri" title="User:Adriazeri">Adriazeri</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Adriazeri" title="User talk:Adriazeri">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Adriazeri-20240906174100-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:41, 6 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adriazeri-20240906174100-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adriazeri-20240906174100-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240906232100-Adriazeri-20240906174100"></span>I asked WP:Brands to help out as you saw, but as I'm sat here waiting for a bus, I did my own research and found out I was correct all along: <ul><li><b>Marque</b> refers to how the manufacturer wants to <b>brand </b>itself.</li> <li><b>Model</b> refers to the products a manufacturer will without doubt <b>brand </b> as part of standard marketing procedure.</li> <li>Manufacturers protect their marque's and model's branding (and trim/technologies/coachbuilding/auxiliary services) legally using trademarks, including registering <b>brand names</b></li></ul></dd> <dd>Sources: <ul><li><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.paulandpaul.com/whats-the-difference-between-trademark-vs-brand-everything-you-need-to-know/">law firm</a> <ul><li><i>"A brand consists of several elements, including: Image, Character, Identity, Personality, Essence, Culture, Reputation. A trademark can be used to protect various aspects of a brand, including: Brand name, Signatures, Words, ..."</i></li> <li><i>"all trademarks are brands, but not all brands are trademarks"</i></li> <li><i>"The brand name is chosen by the business on how it would like to be identified. Trademarks, which are sometimes called “service marks,” carry legal weight and protect the business and its services and products."</i></li></ul></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.upcounsel.com/trademark-vs-brand">legal advice site</a> <ul><li><i>"All trademarks are brands, while not all brands are trademarks."</i></li> <li><i>"Trademarks can be specific words or phrases, .. which are a vital part of your company's brand.</i></li></ul></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.nominus.com/en/tm/blog/registration-protection/november-2021/trademark-vs-brand-differences-and-similarities">IP company</a> <ul><li><i>"All trademarks are brands. However, not all brands are trademarks."</i></li></ul></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.lexiconbranding.com/how-to-name-a-product-the-new-rules-for-effective-names/">Agency that picks brand names for products</a> <ul><li><i>"While the following product naming rules are simple, our clients find them very helpful as we work together to create a winning brand name."</i></li></ul></li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.meltwater.com/en/blog/product-branding-definition-examples-and-strategy">article on product branding</a> <ul><li><i>"The company's brand positioning focuses more on innovation and being a long-standing leader in its field, while its product brands each have their own unique brand identity."</i></li></ul></li></ul></dd> <dd>If brand and marque are interchangeable as you say, then model names like <a href="/wiki/Impreza" class="mw-redirect" title="Impreza">Impreza</a>, <a href="/wiki/Evoque" class="mw-redirect" title="Evoque">Evoque</a> and <a href="/wiki/Camaro" class="mw-redirect" title="Camaro">Camaro</a> are not brands, right? Nor WRX, <a href="/wiki/AMG" class="mw-disambig" title="AMG">AMG</a>, <a href="/wiki/Quattro_(four-wheel-drive_system)" title="Quattro (four-wheel-drive system)">Quattro</a> and other non-car products like say, almost everything on <a href="/wiki/Template:Kraft_Foods_Group" title="Template:Kraft Foods Group">Template:Kraft_Foods_Group</a>. If they're not brands, they are not trademark protected as per the above sources. I simply don't believe that.</dd> <dd>Hopefully somebody finds this useful. The next person to tell me I'm wrong really ought to use some sources or examples if they want to be convincing. <a href="/wiki/User:Rally_Wonk" title="User:Rally Wonk">Rally Wonk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rally_Wonk" title="User talk:Rally Wonk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Rally_Wonk-20240906232100-Adriazeri-20240906174100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:21, 6 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240906232100-Adriazeri-20240906174100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rally_Wonk-20240906232100-Adriazeri-20240906174100"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adriazeri-20240907023700-Rally_Wonk-20240906232100"></span>Camaro, Evoque and Impreza are model <b>names</b> of a car brand, to try and liken a name to a brand is a bit peculiar in my opinion.</dd> <dd><br/></dd> <dd>I don’t know why you’ve brought up non-automotive at all, but your thing about Kraft Foods is also wrong, those are all brands that Kraft operates under, just like for example Cadillac is a brand GM operates under. <a href="/wiki/User:Adriazeri" title="User:Adriazeri">Adriazeri</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Adriazeri" title="User talk:Adriazeri">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Adriazeri-20240907023700-Rally_Wonk-20240906232100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:37, 7 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adriazeri-20240907023700-Rally_Wonk-20240906232100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adriazeri-20240907023700-Rally_Wonk-20240906232100"></span> <dl><dd><span class="nowrap"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20240907084900-Adriazeri-20240907023700"></span>Rally Wonk<span class="mw-no-invert"><span class="skin-invert" typeof="mw:File"><span title="@"><img alt="@" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/At_sign.svg/15px-At_sign.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/At_sign.svg/23px-At_sign.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/At_sign.svg/30px-At_sign.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="145" data-file-height="145"/></span></span></span></span>, going through your sources: <ul><li><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.paulandpaul.com/whats-the-difference-between-trademark-vs-brand-everything-you-need-to-know/">law firm</a> - this compares trademarks vs brand. We are not talking about trademarks. It does not talk about brand vs marque vs make. So we can reject it.</li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.upcounsel.com/trademark-vs-brand">legal advice site</a> has large sections that are word for word the same as the previous source. Same deal. Rejected.</li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.nominus.com/en/tm/blog/registration-protection/november-2021/trademark-vs-brand-differences-and-similarities">IP company</a> has different words but the same faults. Rejected.</li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.lexiconbranding.com/how-to-name-a-product-the-new-rules-for-effective-names/">Agency that picks brand names for products</a> talks about choosing a name. This is quite different to defining what the words brand/marque/make mean. Rejected.</li> <li><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.meltwater.com/en/blog/product-branding-definition-examples-and-strategy">article on product branding</a> has different words but the same faults. Also diverges into product branding, which is not the same as company brand (it even says so itself). Rejected.</li></ul></dd> <dd>Something they all had in common was they talked about brand <i>image</i>. "Brand image" is different to "brand". Coke is a brand. The red colour, the white swirl, and the font are brand images that conjure up the brand in the customers mind and have a lot of protection under the law but are not the brand themselves.</dd> <dd>You asked for sources but gave irrelevant sources of your own and totally ignored the dictionary definitions I listed earlier (using both British and American definitions).</dd> <dd>You mentioned model names. Agreeing with Adriazeri, in most cases they are not brand names. In "Ford Mustang" we have the brand/marque/make "Ford" and the model "Mustang". Only in a few cases do model names become brand names - eg "<a href="/wiki/Morris_Mini_Minor" class="mw-redirect" title="Morris Mini Minor">Morris Mini Minor</a>" later became the brand "<a href="/wiki/Mini_(marque)" title="Mini (marque)">Mini (marque)</a>". <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Stepho-wrs-20240907084900-Adriazeri-20240907023700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:49, 7 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20240907084900-Adriazeri-20240907023700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20240907084900-Adriazeri-20240907023700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240907140400-Stepho-wrs-20240907084900"></span>I ignored your dictionary definitions because if you look up Brand in the same dictionaries you do not find them using the word Marque. Your argument that this makes them synonyms is weak. A dictionary is not a thesaurus, and even if you used a thesaurus we are discussing technical differences that they wouldn't.</dd> <dd>Maybe we easily mix <i>brand</i> with <i>brand name</i> and <i>brand image</i> across this discussion. Have a look into <a href="/wiki/Brand#Brand_name" title="Brand">this context (Global brand variables#Brand name)</a>. 'A brand name constitutes a trademark', it says. But you reject talking about trademarks as irrelevant. It's absolutely relevant. Do you want to tell me that any of the brands we discuss as either marques or models are not actually brand names? Is this not the conversation we are having? Do we disam GMC as <a href="/w/index.php?title=GMC_(reliable,_trustworthy,_affordable)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="GMC (reliable, trustworthy, affordable) (page does not exist)">GMC (reliable, trustworthy, affordable)</a> instead or something? That section also specifically mentions <i>names of products</i>. Please don't continue to write that off and tell me I'm wrong without using sound logic, reason, evidence.</dd> <dd>You are right, the second source is very similar to the first. There are a plethora of other search results to choose but I'm wasting my time if it's all still irrelevant.</dd> <dd>I was curious and found where Ford registered just the word (no images or text extensions) <i>Mustang</i> in the UK with the Government intellectual property office: <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00909017708">1</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00002401395">2</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00002554083">3</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00003707354">4</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00003826137">5</a> There are plenty more registrations for the string <i>Ford Mustang</i> and also their slogans, logos... there's thousands for Ford. We've been told trademarks are brands from multiple sources. Do you still want to reject it all using your own conjecture? That's your choice, but I will remain unconvinced by it. <a href="/wiki/User:Rally_Wonk" title="User:Rally Wonk">Rally Wonk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rally_Wonk" title="User talk:Rally Wonk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Rally_Wonk-20240907140400-Stepho-wrs-20240907084900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:04, 7 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240907140400-Stepho-wrs-20240907084900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rally_Wonk-20240907140400-Stepho-wrs-20240907084900"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240907131900-Adriazeri-20240907023700"></span>Maybe it is peculiar, but sources say that it is that way. These models are trademarked, trademarks are brands. Wikipedia is built on sources, not conjecture of the loudest/ biggest bully editors. I don't know how to spin out discussion of that point.</dd> <dd>Years ago, <a href="/wiki/Honda" title="Honda">Honda</a> had a brand reputation of making cars for old and retired people in the UK. Meanwhile, <a href="/wiki/Honda" title="Honda">Honda</a> had a brand reputation of making hot hatches for youngsters to tweak and attend cruises on retail park car parks. Maybe the branding of the products, trim, technology had something to do with achieving that duality?</dd> <dd>With the Kraft point; If you're saying <a href="/wiki/Kool-Aid" title="Kool-Aid">Kool-Aid</a> is the maker (like a marque), not the product, what is the product or is there not a product? Because that article makes it sound like a product. <i>"Kool-Aid was invented by...", "this powder was named Kool-Aid", "Kool-Aid is usually sold in powder form, in either packets or small tubs."</i> If you are saying that article needs many improvements than this is where I am with so many car articles too <a href="/wiki/User:Rally_Wonk" title="User:Rally Wonk">Rally Wonk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rally_Wonk" title="User talk:Rally Wonk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Rally_Wonk-20240907131900-Adriazeri-20240907023700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:19, 7 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240907131900-Adriazeri-20240907023700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rally_Wonk-20240907131900-Adriazeri-20240907023700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adriazeri-20240907132800-Rally_Wonk-20240907131900"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs">Stepho-wrs</a> has demonstrated that your “sources” are irrelevant to the matter. Brand image is also irrelevant to this matter.</dd> <dd><br/></dd> <dd>It appears to me that you’re grasping at straws because you’ve been proven to be bringing up points which are not relevant to the discussion. <a href="/wiki/User:Adriazeri" title="User:Adriazeri">Adriazeri</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Adriazeri" title="User talk:Adriazeri">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Adriazeri-20240907132800-Rally_Wonk-20240907131900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adriazeri-20240907132800-Rally_Wonk-20240907131900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adriazeri-20240907132800-Rally_Wonk-20240907131900"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240907140800-Adriazeri-20240907132800"></span>! <a href="/wiki/User:Rally_Wonk" title="User:Rally Wonk">Rally Wonk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rally_Wonk" title="User talk:Rally Wonk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Rally_Wonk-20240907140800-Adriazeri-20240907132800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:08, 7 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240907140800-Adriazeri-20240907132800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rally_Wonk-20240907140800-Adriazeri-20240907132800"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240907170400-Adriazeri-20240907132800"></span>Here's some more peculiar straws in the form of ordinary use of car models being described as brands. I've tried to restrict this to reputable sources:</dd> <dd><i>"Mustang Dark Horse is the most track-ready series production Mustang and the foundation for the Mustang brand’s motorsport campaigns."</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/gb/en/news/2024/02/01/new-ford-mustang-is-an-icon-reborn-.html">Ford</a>.</dd> <dd><i>"This is the V8 version of Chevy’s muscle car Camaro brand, known as the SS."</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/chevrolet/v8-2dr-auto/first-drive">BBC Top Gear</a></dd> <dd><i>"But the appeal of the Beetle brand gives the concept a better chance of appearing in showrooms."</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2539138/Volkswagen-unveils-road-Beetle-Dune-Concept-car.html">Daily Mail</a></dd> <dd><i>"the continued success of the Impreza brand. And it is a brand; from its early beginnings as a misunderstood and unglamorous rally car spin-off for the road to cult hero and supercar baiter, the car and brand is a core part of Subaru's operation."</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.theaa.com/car-reviews/subaru/impreza/5-door-2-0-rx">The AA</a></dd> <dd><i>"have Land Rover taken the Evoque brand a step too far?"</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ioah2">Auto Express</a></dd> <dd><i>"the Coupe makes the Altima brand stronger by appealing to a new segment of buyers"</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/release-31c1ab8d85c94d58b7a87695cbe19e88-2008-altima-coupe-press-kit?selectedTabId=release-bd40fba80f17462a8626c2378787770e">Nissan</a></dd> <dd><i>"The debut of the Civic brand in July 1972 represented Honda's first 'mainstream' car"</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://hondanews.eu/eu/lv/cars/media/pressreleases/34350/civic-01-4-door">Honda</a></dd> <dd><i>"the manufacturer wants to leverage its existing investment in the model Y brand"</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/api-management/api-design-which-version-of-versioning-is-right-for-you">Google</a> (Not Tesla but same context)</dd> <dd><i>"minor model changes were also made to increase the luxurious image associated with the Corolla brand"</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://global.toyota/en/corolla50th/feature/corolla_enthusiast03/">Toyota</a></dd> <dd>I can't make my points much thorough or suitably sourced. Brands/brand names/branding are not restricted to marques/makers/companies; marques are not restricted to cars, and car models and general products <i>can</i> be brands. <a href="/wiki/User:Rally_Wonk" title="User:Rally Wonk">Rally Wonk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rally_Wonk" title="User talk:Rally Wonk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Rally_Wonk-20240907170400-Adriazeri-20240907132800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:04, 7 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240907170400-Adriazeri-20240907132800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rally_Wonk-20240907170400-Adriazeri-20240907132800"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adriazeri-20240907181000-Rally_Wonk-20240907170400"></span>You keep bringing up Mustang; it is considered somewhat a sub-brand of Ford. It almost acts as a spun-off brand of Ford but it is still a Ford <b>model</b>, a little bit like what Range Rover is to Land Rover. The article for the <a href="/wiki/Ford_Mustang" title="Ford Mustang">Ford Mustang</a> still has the brand Ford in the title because Ford is the maker.</dd> <dd><br/></dd> <dd>The other ones you mention such as the Beetle are by definition, models of the manufacturer’s brand, and would never be titled on Wikipedia as their own article without the brand in front. As is demonstrated with <a href="/wiki/Volkswagen_Beetle" title="Volkswagen Beetle">Volkswagen Beetle</a>, <b>clearly</b> having Volkswagen in the title as Beetle is not its own brand. <a href="/wiki/User:Adriazeri" title="User:Adriazeri">Adriazeri</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Adriazeri" title="User talk:Adriazeri">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Adriazeri-20240907181000-Rally_Wonk-20240907170400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:10, 7 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adriazeri-20240907181000-Rally_Wonk-20240907170400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adriazeri-20240907181000-Rally_Wonk-20240907170400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240928120400-Sable232-20240902164300"></span>In the scope of the article, should GMC be a business with legal responsibilities that employs people, manufactures products, makes money and pays taxes; or is it a brand; being the values and reputation of the products or entity represented officially with <a href="/wiki/Intellectual_property" title="Intellectual property">IP</a> in PR and marketing? Or, does it want to cover both? The first sentence, wikidata item and infobox say 'legal entity' whilst the short description and title say 'brand'.</dd> <dd>In an article <a href="/w/index.php?title=Brand_(brand)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Brand (brand) (page does not exist)">Brand (brand)</a> (or marque), I would expect to find content about the marketing, advertising campaigns, surveys of brand recognition, sales figures, product associations, celebrity endorsements, etc. I would not necessarily expect information about who founded the legal entity and when, where the HQ is, production methods, what other brands and companies the parent company purchased, etc.</dd> <dd>If the article was named <a href="/wiki/General_Motors_Truck_Company" class="mw-redirect" title="General Motors Truck Company">General Motors Truck Company</a>, I could expect all of that; as there is no reason why Brand could not be a section where it is a property or possession of the titled company or its products, and where size and/or notability doesn't warrant a split.</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/GMC_(automobile)" title="GMC (automobile)">GMC (automobile)</a> is not discriminatory in this regard, the article is fine covering both legal entity and brand content, but if it's only seen as incorrect because trucks and vans aren't seen as automobiles, maybe <a href="/w/index.php?title=GMC_(vehicle)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="GMC (vehicle) (page does not exist)">GMC (vehicle)</a> or something is sought?</dd> <dd>I can't help but think a guide to article naming along these lines could be included in the project page somewhere if consensus was in agreement. <a href="/wiki/User:Rally_Wonk" title="User:Rally Wonk">Rally Wonk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rally_Wonk" title="User talk:Rally Wonk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Rally_Wonk-20240928120400-Sable232-20240902164300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240928120400-Sable232-20240902164300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rally_Wonk-20240928120400-Sable232-20240902164300"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Adriazeri-20240928125400-Rally_Wonk-20240928120400"></span>GMC (automobile) would make it sound like the article was referring to a vehicle called GMC, rather than a marque. GMC (vehicle) would be even worse in that respect. <a href="/wiki/User:Adriazeri" title="User:Adriazeri">Adriazeri</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Adriazeri" title="User talk:Adriazeri">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Adriazeri-20240928125400-Rally_Wonk-20240928120400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Adriazeri-20240928125400-Rally_Wonk-20240928120400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Adriazeri-20240928125400-Rally_Wonk-20240928120400"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240928141400-Adriazeri-20240928125400"></span>Isn't the whole point of disambiguation to establish the topic, not define the name? Using the first suggested at <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Disam" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Disam">WP:Disam</a> for example, <a href="/wiki/Mercury_(mythology)" title="Mercury (mythology)">Mercury (mythology)</a>, Mercury is not a mythology itself but a God.</dd> <dd>What about <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.gmctools.com/en-GB/AboutUs">other brands/marques called GMC</a>? (And thinking globally if consistency among project articles can be established). <a href="/wiki/User:Rally_Wonk" title="User:Rally Wonk">Rally Wonk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rally_Wonk" title="User talk:Rally Wonk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Rally_Wonk-20240928141400-Adriazeri-20240928125400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rally_Wonk-20240928141400-Adriazeri-20240928125400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rally_Wonk-20240928141400-Adriazeri-20240928125400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sammy_D_III-20240923135600-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves"></span>Comment</b> This post looks dead, just a note for the future. As a US English long-time driver I have no idea how to pronounce "Marque". My guess is "Mark" but I don't think I have ever heard it used. In my state they use "Year/Make/Model". No search, no grammar, just common use in my area. Thank you. <a href="/wiki/User:Sammy_D_III" title="User:Sammy D III">Sammy D III</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sammy_D_III" title="User talk:Sammy D III">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Sammy_D_III-20240923135600-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sammy_D_III-20240923135600-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sammy_D_III-20240923135600-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200-Sammy_D_III-20240923135600"></span>Your pronunciation is correct. English words ending in "que" are derived from French and are pronounced as though ending in "k". Eg antique, technique. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200-Sammy_D_III-20240923135600" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:32, 27 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200-Sammy_D_III-20240923135600"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200-Sammy_D_III-20240923135600"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sammy_D_III-20240928012000-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200"></span>Thank you for the answer. My meaning, though, was just that I don't think the word "Marque" itself is commonly used in the US. Again, thanks. <a href="/wiki/User:Sammy_D_III" title="User:Sammy D III">Sammy D III</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sammy_D_III" title="User talk:Sammy D III">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Sammy_D_III-20240928012000-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sammy_D_III-20240928012000-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sammy_D_III-20240928012000-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200"></span></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr.choppers-20240928014400-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200"></span>Move GMC back to the earlier title - "marque" has a fancy, aspirational vibe to it, as per the dictionary citations presented by Stepho earlier. Brand is neutral and is commonly used in the UK as well, not to mention all of the other English-speaking nations. <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;"><a href="/wiki/User:Mr.choppers" title="User:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;"><b> Mr.choppers | </b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr.choppers" title="User talk:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;">✎ </span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Mr.choppers-20240928014400-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr.choppers-20240928014400-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr.choppers-20240928014400-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erremm-20241107092000-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves"></span>As I'm from a country where the mother tongue is not English, I'd like to give the following into consideration. First of all, the English WP articles of course are not only a source of wisdom for users in the UK, USA, Australia and other English speaking countries. Because the articles often are more extensive than their equivalents in 'local' languages, or because the articles simply do not exist in certain languages, the second choice often is to go to the English article. This means that English is a world language, whether we like it or not. So keeping that in mind, the discussion about locally used vocabulary (color or colour, trunk or boot, etc. etc.) probably will never end anyway - users in e.g. <a href="/wiki/Sweden" title="Sweden">Sweden</a>, <a href="/wiki/Brazil" title="Brazil">Brazil</a>, <a href="/wiki/China" title="China">China</a> or <a href="/wiki/Gabon" title="Gabon">Gabon</a> don't care, as long as they can understand what's written. </p><p>Secondly, English being a world language also means that all those people reading WP articles in the English version, but not coming from an English speaking nation, should just as well be able to understand what's been written. And yes, we have 'simple English' versions of certain pages, but that's not what I mean. I mean that it's sometimes preferred that we use vocabulary and syntax that are more mainstream than others. So whether it be marque or brand, one of those two must be more generally in use worldwide than the other (and I mean that where they are used having the same meaning), and then I'd say let's go with that one (my guess is that in this case it's <i>brand</i>). <a href="/wiki/User:Erremm" title="User:Erremm">Erremm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erremm" title="User talk:Erremm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Erremm-20241107092000-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erremm-20241107092000-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erremm-20241107092000-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241108000100-Erremm-20241107092000"></span>Unfortunately, English is not <u>a</u> language - it's a group of related dialects used in different countries. I know that I would hate it if WP choose to use only US English. Similarly, Americans would hate it if we used only British English. Our uneasy truce is in <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:ENGVAR" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:ENGVAR">WP:ENGVAR</a> where each article chooses an English dialect and remains consistent within the article. Far from perfect but nobody has found a better solution. As for brand or marque having more usage worldwide - that too varies by which country you are in and whether that country has more ties to Britain or the US. What is great for you may be awful to someone else - or vice-versa. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Stepho-wrs-20241108000100-Erremm-20241107092000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241108000100-Erremm-20241107092000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20241108000100-Erremm-20241107092000"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Erremm-20241108095300-Stepho-wrs-20241108000100"></span>Well, I didn't say it has to be either American English or British English, because I do understand all the sensitivity around that. I just propose that the most commonly used word is used. There's also guidelines that suggest this: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONALITY" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:COMMONALITY">WP:COMMONALITY</a> says under bullet 1: "Use universally accepted terms rather than those less widely distributed, <b>especially in titles</b>." and under bullet 5: "... the most commonly used current variant should usually be preferred." <a href="/wiki/User:Erremm" title="User:Erremm">Erremm</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Erremm" title="User talk:Erremm">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Erremm-20241108095300-Stepho-wrs-20241108000100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Erremm-20241108095300-Stepho-wrs-20241108000100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Erremm-20241108095300-Stepho-wrs-20241108000100"></span></dd></dl></dd> <dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Rally_Wonk-20241108131200-Erremm-20241107092000"></span>I agree, English is not a 'pedigree' language itself and continues to evolve with global influences, however that's no excuse not to uphold standards, or to invent a reasoning against convention which is what some users did above.</dd> <dd>I have no problem with brand instead of marque but I don't think either helps with disambiguation and there's too much conversation on this <i>brand</i> v <i>marque</i>. The OP question was <i>automobile</i> v <i>marque</i> (or brand). Of those advocating for <a href="/w/index.php?title=Xyz_(brand)&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Xyz (brand) (page does not exist)">xyz (brand)</a>, there's not much explained what happens when the same brand name from different companies and different product sectors happens. <a href="/wiki/User:Rally_Wonk" title="User:Rally Wonk">Rally Wonk</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Rally_Wonk" title="User talk:Rally Wonk">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Rally_Wonk-20241108131200-Erremm-20241107092000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Rally_Wonk-20241108131200-Erremm-20241107092000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Rally_Wonk-20241108131200-Erremm-20241107092000"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024" data-mw-thread-id="h-Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024-20240929075900"><span id="Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500.23Requested_move_22_September_2024"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024-20240929075900"></span>Requested move at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Fiat New 500">Talk:Fiat New 500#Requested move 22 September 2024</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024-20240929075900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Requested move at Talk:Fiat New 500#Requested move 22 September 2024"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Reading_Beans-20240929075900-Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024"></span><figure class="mw-halign-left" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Information.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/45px-Information.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/60px-Information.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="256" data-file-height="256"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure><p> There is a requested move discussion at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:Fiat New 500">Talk:Fiat New 500#Requested move 22 September 2024</a> that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Reading_Beans" title="User talk:Reading Beans"><span style="color:#333"><b>Reading Beans</b></span></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Reading_Beans-20240929075900-Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:59, 29 September 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Reading_Beans-20240929075900-Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Reading_Beans-20240929075900-Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024"></span> </p><div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Good_article_reassessment_for_Lexus_LS" data-mw-thread-id="h-Good_article_reassessment_for_Lexus_LS-20241012152300"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Good_article_reassessment_for_Lexus_LS-20241012152300"></span>Good article reassessment for <a href="/wiki/Lexus_LS" title="Lexus LS">Lexus LS</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Good_article_reassessment_for_Lexus_LS-20241012152300"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Good article reassessment for Lexus LS"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a href="/wiki/Lexus_LS" title="Lexus LS"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Z1720-20241012152300-Good_article_reassessment_for_Lexus_LS"></span>Lexus LS</a> has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/Lexus_LS/1" title="Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Lexus LS/1">reassessment page</a>. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. <a href="/wiki/User:Z1720" title="User:Z1720">Z1720</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Z1720" title="User talk:Z1720">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Z1720-20241012152300-Good_article_reassessment_for_Lexus_LS" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:23, 12 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Z1720-20241012152300-Good_article_reassessment_for_Lexus_LS"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Z1720-20241012152300-Good_article_reassessment_for_Lexus_LS"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Convert_Template_unintentional_rounding" data-mw-thread-id="h-Convert_Template_unintentional_rounding-20241013190900"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Convert_Template_unintentional_rounding-20241013190900"></span>Convert Template unintentional rounding<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Convert_Template_unintentional_rounding-20241013190900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Convert Template unintentional rounding"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Needlesballoon-20241013190900-Convert_Template_unintentional_rounding"></span>Many articles put power and torque figures into the Convert Template to provide additional units. However, there are many instances where the conversions are incorrect or unintentionally imprecise, as by default the template interprets ending zeroes as insignificant figures, when that may not be the user's intention. This can be avoided easily by adding a decimal point (.) to the end of the number to be converted (input #1). </p><p>Examples: </p><p>1,250 PS (1,230 hp; 920 kW) vs. 1,250 PS (1,233 hp; 919 kW) </p><p>190 PS (190 hp; 140 kW) vs. 190 PS (187 hp; 140 kW) </p><p>280 PS (280 hp; 210 kW) vs. 280 PS (276 hp; 206 kW), which is especially egregious due to the Japanese Gentleman's Agreement :) </p><p>Have fun cleaning up these little errors sprinkled everywhere :) <a href="/wiki/User:Needlesballoon" title="User:Needlesballoon">Needlesballoon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Needlesballoon" title="User talk:Needlesballoon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Needlesballoon-20241013190900-Convert_Template_unintentional_rounding" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:09, 13 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Needlesballoon-20241013190900-Convert_Template_unintentional_rounding"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Needlesballoon-20241013190900-Convert_Template_unintentional_rounding"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-A7V2-20241014034000-Needlesballoon-20241013190900"></span>At the same time, I would say it's important not to treat the trailing zeros as significant without a good reason to do so. I would argue incorrectly/unintentionally imprecise is better than incorrectly/unintentionally precise. <a href="/wiki/User:A7V2" title="User:A7V2">A7V2</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:A7V2" title="User talk:A7V2">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-A7V2-20241014034000-Needlesballoon-20241013190900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-A7V2-20241014034000-Needlesballoon-20241013190900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-A7V2-20241014034000-Needlesballoon-20241013190900"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr.choppers-20241107022300-A7V2-20241014034000"></span>There are lots of tricks to make conversion templates behave:</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>{{cvt|190|PS|hp kW|0}} gives 190 PS (187 hp; 140 kW)</dd> <dd>{{cvt|1100|PS|hp kW|sigfig=3}} gives 1,100 PS (1,080 hp; 809 kW); there are cases where this can be useful, like when discussing turbo boosted F1 cars where the max outputs are definitely estimates.</dd> <dd>{{cvt|115|PS|kW PS hp|0|order=out}} gives 85 kW (115 PS; 113 hp) - this allows you to maintain the input unit from the source, while having the output lead with kW which is preferred for newer cars.</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Best, <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;"><a href="/wiki/User:Mr.choppers" title="User:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;"><b> Mr.choppers | </b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr.choppers" title="User talk:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;">✎ </span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Mr.choppers-20241107022300-A7V2-20241014034000" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr.choppers-20241107022300-A7V2-20241014034000"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr.choppers-20241107022300-A7V2-20241014034000"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Adding_one's_own_photos?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Adding_one's_own_photos?-20241022003300"><span id="Adding_one.27s_own_photos.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Adding_one's_own_photos?-20241022003300"></span>Adding one's own photos?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Adding_one's_own_photos?-20241022003300"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Adding one's own photos?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Cutlass-20241022003300-Adding_one's_own_photos?"></span>I've noticed people add their own photos to the articles on cars. Should people generally leave this to others? <a href="/wiki/User:Cutlass" title="User:Cutlass"><span style="color: maroon">Cutlass</span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Cutlass" title="User talk:Cutlass"><sup><span style="color: blue">Ciera</span></sup></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Cutlass-20241022003300-Adding_one's_own_photos?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:33, 22 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Cutlass-20241022003300-Adding_one's_own_photos?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Cutlass-20241022003300-Adding_one's_own_photos?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Andra_Febrian-20241022031200-Cutlass-20241022003300"></span>If it's a new addition or a significant/obvious improvement, personally I have no problem with that. But if it is replacing an image with more-or-less the same quality or even better quality, then it's a problem. <a href="/wiki/User:Andra_Febrian" title="User:Andra Febrian">Andra Febrian</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Andra_Febrian" title="User talk:Andra Febrian">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Andra_Febrian-20241022031200-Cutlass-20241022003300" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Andra_Febrian-20241022031200-Cutlass-20241022003300"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Andra_Febrian-20241022031200-Cutlass-20241022003300"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241022060400-Andra_Febrian-20241022031200"></span>Agreed. It's generally acceptable as long as you don't spam it to every car article possible and that the quality is better than what it replaces. See <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CARPIX" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CARPIX">WP:CARPIX</a> for tips but in short use decent light and front 3/4 angle from eye height. Avoid close up pics (car looks nose heavy), high non-factory modifications, gloss black paint (reflections), cluttered/distracting backgrounds and backgrounds the same colour as the car. As long as it is improving Wikipedia and not just an ego trip. Have fun. <span style="border:1px solid blue;border-radius:4px;color:blue;box-shadow: 3px 3px 4px grey;"><a href="/wiki/User:Stepho-wrs" title="User:Stepho-wrs"><b> Stepho </b></a> <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:top"><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Stepho-wrs" title="User talk:Stepho-wrs">talk</a> </span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Stepho-wrs-20241022060400-Andra_Febrian-20241022031200" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">06:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Stepho-wrs-20241022060400-Andra_Febrian-20241022031200"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Stepho-wrs-20241022060400-Andra_Febrian-20241022031200"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mr.choppers-20241107020500-Stepho-wrs-20241022060400"></span>Agreed - my rule of thumb is to think twice and generally not reinstate my own photo if someone changes it (this excludes situations when random IPs go on picture changing sprees or if the replacement photos are blatantly in opposition to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:CARPIX" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:CARPIX">WP:CARPIX</a>). If you take a good photo, it is not likely going to be discovered by other editors right away, so there is a case for doing it yourself. As far as ego trips go, it is a hundred times more satisfying when someone else picks your photo, anyhow. <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;"><a href="/wiki/User:Mr.choppers" title="User:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;"><b> Mr.choppers | </b></span></a><a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mr.choppers" title="User talk:Mr.choppers"><span style="color:#FDEE00;">✎ </span></a></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Mr.choppers-20241107020500-Stepho-wrs-20241022060400" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mr.choppers-20241107020500-Stepho-wrs-20241022060400"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mr.choppers-20241107020500-Stepho-wrs-20241022060400"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Proposed_for_deletion_(PROD):_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures" data-mw-thread-id="h-Proposed_for_deletion_(PROD):_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures-20241030232100"><span id="Proposed_for_deletion_.28PROD.29:_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Proposed_for_deletion_(PROD):_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures-20241030232100"></span>Proposed for deletion (PROD): <a href="/wiki/U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures" class="mw-redirect" title="U.S. Automobile Production Figures">U.S. Automobile Production Figures</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Proposed_for_deletion_(PROD):_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures-20241030232100"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: Proposed for deletion (PROD): U.S. Automobile Production Figures"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-A._B.-20241030232100-Proposed_for_deletion_(PROD):_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures"></span>FYI, the article <a href="/wiki/U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures" class="mw-redirect" title="U.S. Automobile Production Figures">U.S. Automobile Production Figures</a> has been proposed for deletion (<a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:PROD" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:PROD">WP:PROD</a>). The first sentences summarize the subject this way: </p> <ul><li><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">"Automobile experimentation and design in the US started a few years after Carl Benz patented and produced his original gasoline-powered motor car in 1886, and a handful of companies were producing them in the US by the turn of the century. The table below shows the annual unit volumes for the top US producers in each year from 1899 to 2000."</q></li></ul> <p>The nominator wrote this summary of their concerns: </p> <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">"Essay without inline citations"</q></li></ul> <p>Note that the article mostly consists of tables of production data by brand dating back to 1899. These table do not use inline references. </p><p>If you agree or disagree with deletion, there are instructions on the <a href="/wiki/Template:Prod" class="mw-redirect" title="Template:Prod">deletion notice</a> for what to do. </p><p>Thanks, <span class="nowrap"><span style="font-family:Futura"><a href="/wiki/User:A._B." title="User:A. B.">A. B.</a> <sup>(<a href="/wiki/User_talk:A._B." title="User talk:A. B.">talk</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/A._B." title="Special:Contributions/A. B.">contribs</a> • <a href="/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/A._B." title="Special:CentralAuth/A. B.">global count</a>)</sup></span></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-A._B.-20241030232100-Proposed_for_deletion_(PROD):_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">23:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-A._B.-20241030232100-Proposed_for_deletion_(PROD):_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-A._B.-20241030232100-Proposed_for_deletion_(PROD):_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_§_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_§_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?-20241109223900"><span id="Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_.C2.A7_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_§_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?-20241109223900"></span>Discussion at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Isetta#Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?" title="Talk:Isetta">Talk:Isetta § Was the Isetta manufactured or not in Argentina?</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_§_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?-20241109223900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Discussion at Talk:Isetta § Was the Isetta manufactured or not in Argentina?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Peaceray-20241109223900-Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_§_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Symbol_watching_blue_lashes_high_contrast.svg/25px-Symbol_watching_blue_lashes_high_contrast.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="26" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Symbol_watching_blue_lashes_high_contrast.svg/38px-Symbol_watching_blue_lashes_high_contrast.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Symbol_watching_blue_lashes_high_contrast.svg/50px-Symbol_watching_blue_lashes_high_contrast.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></span></span> You are invited to join the discussion at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Isetta#Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?" title="Talk:Isetta">Talk:Isetta § Was the Isetta manufactured or not in Argentina?</a>. <a href="/wiki/User:Peaceray" title="User:Peaceray">Peaceray</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Peaceray" title="User talk:Peaceray">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Peaceray-20241109223900-Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_§_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:39, 9 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Peaceray-20241109223900-Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_§_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Peaceray-20241109223900-Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_§_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject?" data-mw-thread-id="h-EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject?-20241123184100"><span id="EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject?-20241123184100"></span>EV battery suppliers added to WikiProject?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject?-20241123184100"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: EV battery suppliers added to WikiProject?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Needlesballoon-20241123184100-EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject?"></span>Automotive suppliers such as <a href="/wiki/Denso" title="Denso">Denso</a> and <a href="/wiki/Bosch_(company)" title="Bosch (company)">Bosch</a> are part of the Automotive WikiProject, despite not producing cars themselves. Should battery companies like <a href="/wiki/CATL" title="CATL">CATL</a>, which are most prominent for their supply of automotive battery cells and technologies, also be added to this WikiProject? Additionally, should companies like <a href="/wiki/Panasonic" title="Panasonic">Panasonic</a>, <a href="/wiki/Samsung_SDI" title="Samsung SDI">Samsung SDI</a>, and <a href="/wiki/EVE_Energy" title="EVE Energy">EVE Energy</a>, who are not primarily based in EV battery supply but are still major players in the space, also be added to the WikiProject? <a href="/wiki/User:Needlesballoon" title="User:Needlesballoon">Needlesballoon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Needlesballoon" title="User talk:Needlesballoon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Needlesballoon-20241123184100-EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Needlesballoon-20241123184100-EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Needlesballoon-20241123184100-EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Needlesballoon-20241126184100-Needlesballoon-20241123184100"></span>In my opinion they should be added, does anyone have any objections? <a href="/wiki/User:Needlesballoon" title="User:Needlesballoon">Needlesballoon</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Needlesballoon" title="User talk:Needlesballoon">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Needlesballoon-20241126184100-Needlesballoon-20241123184100" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:41, 26 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Needlesballoon-20241126184100-Needlesballoon-20241123184100"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Needlesballoon-20241126184100-Needlesballoon-20241123184100"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024" data-mw-thread-id="h-Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024-20241128221900"><span id="Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_.28automotive.29.23Requested_move_28_November_2024"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024-20241128221900"></span>Requested move at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024" title="Talk:Trim level (automotive)">Talk:Trim level (automotive)#Requested move 28 November 2024</a><span data-mw-comment-end="h-Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024-20241128221900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Requested move at Talk:Trim level (automotive)#Requested move 28 November 2024"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Raladic-20241128221900-Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024"></span><figure class="mw-halign-left" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Information.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png" decoding="async" width="30" height="30" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/45px-Information.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/60px-Information.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="256" data-file-height="256"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure><p> There is a requested move discussion at <a href="/wiki/Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024" title="Talk:Trim level (automotive)">Talk:Trim level (automotive)#Requested move 28 November 2024</a> that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. <a href="/wiki/User:Raladic" title="User:Raladic">Raladic</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Raladic" title="User talk:Raladic">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles#c-Raladic-20241128221900-Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:19, 28 November 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Raladic-20241128221900-Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Raladic-20241128221900-Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024"></span></p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&oldid=1260110122">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&oldid=1260110122</a>"</div></div> <div id="catlinks" class="catlinks" data-mw="interface"><div id="mw-normal-catlinks" class="mw-normal-catlinks"><a href="/wiki/Help:Category" title="Help:Category">Categories</a>: <ul><li><a href="/wiki/Category:Project-Class_Automobile_articles" title="Category:Project-Class Automobile articles">Project-Class Automobile articles</a></li><li><a href="/wiki/Category:NA-importance_Automobile_articles" title="Category:NA-importance Automobile articles">NA-importance Automobile articles</a></li></ul></div></div> </div> </main> </div> <div class="mw-footer-container"> <footer id="footer" class="mw-footer" > <ul id="footer-info"> <li id="footer-info-lastmod"> This page was last edited on 28 November 2024, at 22:19<span class="anonymous-show"> (UTC)</span>.</li> <li id="footer-info-copyright">Text is available under the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License" title="Wikipedia:Text of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License">Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License</a>; additional terms may apply. By using this site, you agree to the <a href="https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Terms_of_Use" class="extiw" title="foundation:Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Terms of Use">Terms of Use</a> and <a href="https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Privacy_policy" class="extiw" title="foundation:Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Privacy policy">Privacy Policy</a>. Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://wikimediafoundation.org/">Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.</a>, a non-profit organization.</li> </ul> <ul id="footer-places"> <li id="footer-places-privacy"><a href="https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Privacy_policy">Privacy policy</a></li> <li id="footer-places-about"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:About">About Wikipedia</a></li> <li id="footer-places-disclaimers"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer">Disclaimers</a></li> <li id="footer-places-contact"><a href="//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us">Contact Wikipedia</a></li> <li id="footer-places-wm-codeofconduct"><a href="https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Universal_Code_of_Conduct">Code of Conduct</a></li> <li id="footer-places-developers"><a href="https://developer.wikimedia.org">Developers</a></li> <li id="footer-places-statslink"><a href="https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/en.wikipedia.org">Statistics</a></li> <li id="footer-places-cookiestatement"><a href="https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Policy:Cookie_statement">Cookie statement</a></li> <li id="footer-places-mobileview"><a href="//en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&mobileaction=toggle_view_mobile" class="noprint stopMobileRedirectToggle">Mobile view</a></li> </ul> <ul id="footer-icons" class="noprint"> <li id="footer-copyrightico"><a href="https://wikimediafoundation.org/" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button--enabled"><img src="/static/images/footer/wikimedia-button.svg" width="84" height="29" alt="Wikimedia Foundation" loading="lazy"></a></li> <li id="footer-poweredbyico"><a href="https://www.mediawiki.org/" class="cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--size-large cdx-button--fake-button--enabled"><img src="/w/resources/assets/poweredby_mediawiki.svg" alt="Powered by MediaWiki" width="88" height="31" loading="lazy"></a></li> </ul> </footer> </div> </div> </div> <div class="vector-settings" id="p-dock-bottom"> <ul></ul> </div><script>(RLQ=window.RLQ||[]).push(function(){mw.config.set({"wgHostname":"mw-web.codfw.main-78f4c97c5d-n5j4m","wgBackendResponseTime":134,"wgDiscussionToolsPageThreads":[{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Article_improvement","replies":[]},{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Sable232-20240902164300","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves-20240902164300","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240902164300","author":"Sable232","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sable232-20240902164300-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240903165000","author":"Andra Febrian","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000-Sable232-20240902164300","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240903184200","author":"Rally Wonk","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Rally_Wonk-20240903184200-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240904071200","author":"Andra Febrian","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Andra_Febrian-20240904071200-Rally_Wonk-20240903184200","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240904154600","author":"Rally Wonk","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Rally_Wonk-20240904154600-Andra_Febrian-20240904071200","replies":[]}]}]},{"timestamp":"20240904082300","author":"Adriazeri","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Adriazeri-20240904082300-Andra_Febrian-20240903165000","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240904084900","author":"Andra Febrian","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Andra_Febrian-20240904084900-Adriazeri-20240904082300","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240904085200","author":"Adriazeri","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Adriazeri-20240904085200-Andra_Febrian-20240904084900","replies":[]}]}]}]},{"timestamp":"20240904081800","author":"Adriazeri","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Adriazeri-20240904081800-Sable232-20240902164300","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240904163600","author":"Rally Wonk","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Rally_Wonk-20240904163600-Adriazeri-20240904081800","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240906000500","author":"Stepho-wrs","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Stepho-wrs-20240906000500-Rally_Wonk-20240904163600","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240906112700","author":"Rally Wonk","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700-Stepho-wrs-20240906000500","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240906140000","author":"Stepho-wrs","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Stepho-wrs-20240906140000-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240906154600","author":"Rally Wonk","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Rally_Wonk-20240906154600-Stepho-wrs-20240906140000","replies":[]}],"displayName":"Stepho"},{"timestamp":"20240906141400","author":"Stepho-wrs","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Stepho-wrs-20240906141400-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700","replies":[],"displayName":"Stepho"},{"timestamp":"20240906174100","author":"Adriazeri","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Adriazeri-20240906174100-Rally_Wonk-20240906112700","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240906232100","author":"Rally Wonk","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Rally_Wonk-20240906232100-Adriazeri-20240906174100","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240907023700","author":"Adriazeri","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Adriazeri-20240907023700-Rally_Wonk-20240906232100","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240907084900","author":"Stepho-wrs","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Stepho-wrs-20240907084900-Adriazeri-20240907023700","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240907140400","author":"Rally Wonk","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-Rally_Wonk-20240907140400-Stepho-wrs-20240907084900","replies":[]}],"displayName":"Stepho"},{"timestamp":"20240907131900","author":"Rally Wonk","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Rally_Wonk-20240907131900-Adriazeri-20240907023700","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240907132800","author":"Adriazeri","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-Adriazeri-20240907132800-Rally_Wonk-20240907131900","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240907140800","author":"Rally Wonk","type":"comment","level":11,"id":"c-Rally_Wonk-20240907140800-Adriazeri-20240907132800","replies":[]},{"timestamp":"20240907170400","author":"Rally Wonk","type":"comment","level":11,"id":"c-Rally_Wonk-20240907170400-Adriazeri-20240907132800","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240907181000","author":"Adriazeri","type":"comment","level":12,"id":"c-Adriazeri-20240907181000-Rally_Wonk-20240907170400","replies":[]}]}]}]}]}]}]}]}],"displayName":"Stepho"}]}]},{"timestamp":"20240928120400","author":"Rally Wonk","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Rally_Wonk-20240928120400-Sable232-20240902164300","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240928125400","author":"Adriazeri","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Adriazeri-20240928125400-Rally_Wonk-20240928120400","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240928141400","author":"Rally Wonk","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Rally_Wonk-20240928141400-Adriazeri-20240928125400","replies":[]}]}]}]},{"timestamp":"20240923135600","author":"Sammy D III","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sammy_D_III-20240923135600-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240927003200","author":"Stepho-wrs","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200-Sammy_D_III-20240923135600","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240928012000","author":"Sammy D III","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Sammy_D_III-20240928012000-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200","replies":[]},{"timestamp":"20240928014400","author":"Mr.choppers","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Mr.choppers-20240928014400-Stepho-wrs-20240927003200","replies":[],"displayName":"Mr.choppers |"}],"displayName":"Stepho"}]},{"timestamp":"20241107092000","author":"Erremm","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Erremm-20241107092000-Recent_undiscussed_page_moves","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241108000100","author":"Stepho-wrs","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Stepho-wrs-20241108000100-Erremm-20241107092000","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241108095300","author":"Erremm","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Erremm-20241108095300-Stepho-wrs-20241108000100","replies":[]}],"displayName":"Stepho"},{"timestamp":"20241108131200","author":"Rally Wonk","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Rally_Wonk-20241108131200-Erremm-20241107092000","replies":[]}]}]},{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Reading_Beans-20240929075900","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024-20240929075900","replies":[{"timestamp":"20240929075900","author":"Reading Beans","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Reading_Beans-20240929075900-Requested_move_at_Talk:Fiat_New_500#Requested_move_22_September_2024","replies":[]}]},{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Z1720-20241012152300","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Good_article_reassessment_for_Lexus_LS-20241012152300","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241012152300","author":"Z1720","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Z1720-20241012152300-Good_article_reassessment_for_Lexus_LS","replies":[]}]},{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Needlesballoon-20241013190900","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Convert_Template_unintentional_rounding-20241013190900","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241013190900","author":"Needlesballoon","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Needlesballoon-20241013190900-Convert_Template_unintentional_rounding","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241014034000","author":"A7V2","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-A7V2-20241014034000-Needlesballoon-20241013190900","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241107022300","author":"Mr.choppers","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Mr.choppers-20241107022300-A7V2-20241014034000","replies":[],"displayName":"Mr.choppers |"}]}]}]},{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Cutlass-20241022003300","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Adding_one's_own_photos?-20241022003300","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241022003300","author":"Cutlass","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Cutlass-20241022003300-Adding_one's_own_photos?","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241022031200","author":"Andra Febrian","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Andra_Febrian-20241022031200-Cutlass-20241022003300","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241022060400","author":"Stepho-wrs","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Stepho-wrs-20241022060400-Andra_Febrian-20241022031200","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241107020500","author":"Mr.choppers","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Mr.choppers-20241107020500-Stepho-wrs-20241022060400","replies":[],"displayName":"Mr.choppers |"}],"displayName":"Stepho"}]}]}]},{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-A._B.-20241030232100","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Proposed_for_deletion_(PROD):_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures-20241030232100","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241030232100","author":"A. B.","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-A._B.-20241030232100-Proposed_for_deletion_(PROD):_U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures","replies":[]}]},{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Peaceray-20241109223900","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_§_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?-20241109223900","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241109223900","author":"Peaceray","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Peaceray-20241109223900-Discussion_at_Talk:Isetta_§_Was_the_Isetta_manufactured_or_not_in_Argentina?","replies":[]}]},{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Needlesballoon-20241123184100","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject?-20241123184100","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241123184100","author":"Needlesballoon","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Needlesballoon-20241123184100-EV_battery_suppliers_added_to_WikiProject?","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241126184100","author":"Needlesballoon","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Needlesballoon-20241126184100-Needlesballoon-20241123184100","replies":[]}]}]},{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-Raladic-20241128221900","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024-20241128221900","replies":[{"timestamp":"20241128221900","author":"Raladic","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Raladic-20241128221900-Requested_move_at_Talk:Trim_level_(automotive)#Requested_move_28_November_2024","replies":[]}]}],"wgPageParseReport":{"discussiontools":{"limitreport-timeusage":"0.037"},"limitreport":{"cputime":"0.418","walltime":"0.568","ppvisitednodes":{"value":2817,"limit":1000000},"postexpandincludesize":{"value":52874,"limit":2097152},"templateargumentsize":{"value":7225,"limit":2097152},"expansiondepth":{"value":19,"limit":100},"expensivefunctioncount":{"value":46,"limit":500},"unstrip-depth":{"value":0,"limit":20},"unstrip-size":{"value":20102,"limit":5000000},"entityaccesscount":{"value":0,"limit":400},"timingprofile":["100.00% 420.435 1 -total"," 40.16% 168.836 1 Template:Talk_header"," 29.21% 122.827 1 Template:WikiProject_banner_shell"," 22.10% 92.915 1 Template:WikiProject_Automobiles"," 13.57% 57.046 9 Template:Th/abp"," 10.71% 45.045 1 Template:Skip_to_talk"," 10.30% 43.295 1 Template:Mbox"," 9.58% 40.291 2 Template:Yearly_archive_list"," 8.95% 37.639 1 Template:Tooltip"," 8.50% 35.732 1 Template:Comma_separated_entries"]},"scribunto":{"limitreport-timeusage":{"value":"0.210","limit":"10.000"},"limitreport-memusage":{"value":3593442,"limit":52428800}},"cachereport":{"origin":"mw-api-ext.codfw.main-f5fb67494-nhw7c","timestamp":"20241128221937","ttl":864000,"transientcontent":true}}});});</script> </body> </html>