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id="toc-Piyush_Mathur_?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Piyush_Mathur_?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>Piyush Mathur ?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Piyush_Mathur_?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Operational_Closure" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Operational_Closure"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>Operational Closure</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Operational_Closure-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Functional_Differentiation" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Functional_Differentiation"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Functional Differentiation</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Functional_Differentiation-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-About_Atheist_and_Anti-humanism" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#About_Atheist_and_Anti-humanism"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>About Atheist and Anti-humanism</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-About_Atheist_and_Anti-humanism-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-references" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#references"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>references</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-references-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-jean-francois_lyotard" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#jean-francois_lyotard"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>jean-francois lyotard</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-jean-francois_lyotard-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-"founder"" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#"founder""> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>"founder"</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-"founder"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Image" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Image"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>Image</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Image-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Removed_Laws_of_Form_paragraph" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Removed_Laws_of_Form_paragraph"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>Removed Laws of Form paragraph</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Removed_Laws_of_Form_paragraph-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Systems_Scientist?" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Systems_Scientist?"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">11</span> <span>Systems Scientist?</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">5 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Systems_Scientist?-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Overview_over_his_work" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Overview_over_his_work"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">12</span> <span>Overview over his work</span> </div> </a> <ul id="toc-Overview_over_his_work-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Pictures" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Pictures"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">13</span> <span>Pictures</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Pictures-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Communicative_action" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Communicative_action"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">14</span> <span>Communicative action</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Communicative_action-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-why_is_homie_a_cartoon_character" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#why_is_homie_a_cartoon_character"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">15</span> <span>why is homie a cartoon character</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-why_is_homie_a_cartoon_character-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Citation_does_not_support_"one_of_the_most_important_social_theorists"" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Citation_does_not_support_"one_of_the_most_important_social_theorists""> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">16</span> <span>Citation does not support "one of the most important social theorists"</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Citation_does_not_support_"one_of_the_most_important_social_theorists"-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <nav aria-label="Contents" class="vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-titlebar-toc vector-button-flush-left" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " 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following <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject">WikiProjects</a>:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="banner-shell-inner outercollapse"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1256394742">.mw-parser-output .wpb-header,.mw-parser-output .wpb-metadata,.mw-parser-output .wpb-iefix{display:none}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-name{text-align:right;padding:0.3em 1em 0.3em 0.3em;width:50%;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-assessment{text-align:left;width:50%;padding:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-combined{text-align:left;padding:0.3em 0.3em 0.3em 0;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-bubbles{border-radius:.5em;padding:0 .3em;margin-left:0.5em;white-space:nowrap;font-weight:normal;color:black}.mw-parser-output .wpb-nested-task-force{font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-icon{width:50px;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output 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.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/25px-Crystal_personal.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/38px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Crystal_personal.svg/50px-Crystal_personal.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="70" data-file-height="70"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography">Biography</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Science_and_academia" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Science and academia">Science and Academia</a></span> </td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Crystal_personal.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" 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All interested editors are invited to <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Members" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Members">join the project</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography">contribute to the discussion</a>. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the <a href="/wiki/Template:WikiProject_Biography/doc" title="Template:WikiProject Biography/doc">documentation</a>.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Biography</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Biography</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">biography articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td><figure class="mw-default-size mw-halign-center" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Nuvola_apps_edu_mathematics-p.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="Taskforce icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Nuvola_apps_edu_mathematics-p.svg/25px-Nuvola_apps_edu_mathematics-p.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Nuvola_apps_edu_mathematics-p.svg/38px-Nuvola_apps_edu_mathematics-p.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Nuvola_apps_edu_mathematics-p.svg/50px-Nuvola_apps_edu_mathematics-p.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="128" data-file-height="128"/></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article is supported by <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Science_and_academia" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Science and academia">the science and academia work group</a></b> (assessed as <a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_biography_(science_and_academia)_articles" title="Category:High-importance biography (science and academia) articles">High-importance</a>).</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Germany.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/35px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="21" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/53px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/70px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1000" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Germany" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany">Germany</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-mid">Mid‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Flag_of_Germany.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/80px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="48" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/120px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/160px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1000" data-file-height="600"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li class="portalbox-entry"><span class="portalbox-image"><span class="mw-image-border noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="flag" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/32px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png" decoding="async" width="32" height="19" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/48px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/64px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="1000" data-file-height="600"/></span></span></span><span class="portalbox-link"><a href="/wiki/Portal:Germany" title="Portal:Germany">Germany portal</a></span></li></ul>This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Germany" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany">WikiProject Germany</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Germany" title="Germany">Germany</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Germany" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Germany</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Germany</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Germany articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-mid"><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_Germany_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance Germany articles">Mid</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Mid-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Germany/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link 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Law">Law</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-mid">Mid‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Scale_of_justice_2.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Scale_of_justice_2.svg/55px-Scale_of_justice_2.svg.png" decoding="async" width="55" height="56" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Scale_of_justice_2.svg/83px-Scale_of_justice_2.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Scale_of_justice_2.svg/110px-Scale_of_justice_2.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="204" data-file-height="208"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1239009302"><ul role="navigation" aria-label="Portals" class="noprint portalbox portalborder portalright"> <li 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resource for the <a href="/wiki/Law" title="Law">legal field</a> and the subjects encompassed by it.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Law</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Law</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Law</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">law articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-mid"><a href="/wiki/Category:Mid-importance_law_articles" title="Category:Mid-importance law articles">Mid</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Mid-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Law/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Law/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1256394742"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Socrates.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Socrates.png/16px-Socrates.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Socrates.png/25px-Socrates.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Socrates.png/32px-Socrates.png 2x" data-file-width="326" data-file-height="500"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy">Philosophy</a><span class="wpb-nested-task-force">: <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Philosophers" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Philosophers">Philosophers</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Epistemology" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Epistemology">Epistemology</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Social_and_political" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Social and political">Social and political</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Continental" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Continental">Continental</a> / <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Contemporary" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Contemporary">Contemporary</a></span> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-mid">Mid‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Socrates.png" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Socrates.png/50px-Socrates.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="77" 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If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Sociology" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sociology">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Sociology</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Sociology</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Sociology</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">sociology articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-high"><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_sociology_articles" title="Category:High-importance sociology articles">High</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>High-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Sociology/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Sociology/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Systems_theory_and_the_ontological_paradigm" data-mw-thread-id="h-Systems_theory_and_the_ontological_paradigm-2018-02-05T01:54:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Systems_theory_and_the_ontological_paradigm-2018-02-05T01:54:00.000Z"></span>Systems theory and the ontological paradigm<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Systems_theory_and_the_ontological_paradigm-2018-02-05T01:54:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: Systems theory and the ontological paradigm"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Beigedeath-2018-02-05T01:54:00.000Z-Systems_theory_and_the_ontological_paradigm"></span>I quote the following from the current version of the article. </p> <blockquote><p>Although Luhmann first developed his understanding of social systems theory under Parsons' influence, he soon moved away from the Parsonian concept. The most important difference is that Parsons used systems merely as an analytic tool to understand certain processes going on in society; Luhmann, in contrast, treats his vision of systems ontologically, saying that "systems exist". That is, Luhmann in fact suggests to substitute the paradigm of systems theory for the ontological paradigm: the difference system/environment (which also signifies a relationship).</p></blockquote> <p>I find this paragraph to be highly problematic and a rather serious misunderstanding of Luhmann's theory. At the beginning of <i>Social Systems</i>, Luhmann does indeed state that he is assuming systems exist. But it is not his intention to posit this as an ontological precept. The key is that it is an <i>assumption</i> (this is curiously omitted in the above paragraph), and in making this statement he is merely admitting the impossibility of escaping the position of the first-order observer, or in other words the necessity of "drawing a distinction". This becomes completely clear when both in that book<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> , and in <i>Theory of Society</i>, Luhmann explicitly deconstructs ontological theories of society, and posits second order systems theory as the successor<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-2"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>2<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup>. I think in order to maintain the claim that Luhmann "suggests... the ontological paradigm", one would need to find a reference to him suggesting this within his text. To my mind, no reference exists. One would also need to explain the many contradicting statements found throughout his corpus, such as this: </p> <blockquote><p>The distinction between being and nonbeing is now replaced as primary distinction, completely implausibly from an ontological point of view, by the distinction between inside and outside or that between selfreference and other-reference. For, according to the new version, an observer has first to be produced before he can apply the being/nonbeing distinction. But there are no metaphysical or logical rules for selecting an initial distinction; there are only plausibilities of societal history, including, in modern times, an interest in deontologizing the world.<sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-3"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>3<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup></p></blockquote> <p><a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Beigedeath&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Beigedeath (page does not exist)">Beigedeath</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Beigedeath" title="User talk:Beigedeath">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Beigedeath-2018-02-05T01:54:00.000Z-Systems_theory_and_the_ontological_paradigm" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:54, 5 February 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Beigedeath-2018-02-05T01:54:00.000Z-Systems_theory_and_the_ontological_paradigm"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Beigedeath-2018-02-05T01:54:00.000Z-Systems_theory_and_the_ontological_paradigm"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Beigedeath-2018-02-06T22:47:00.000Z-Beigedeath-2018-02-05T01:54:00.000Z"></span>I've now changed the article to more accurately reflect the differences between Parsons and Luhmann. I don't think an explanation of Luhmann's critique of ontology is necessary for this Wikipedia article, as it is a highly technical and abstract topic and not a priority when introducing his thought to the general audience. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Beigedeath&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Beigedeath (page does not exist)">Beigedeath</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Beigedeath" title="User talk:Beigedeath">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Beigedeath-2018-02-06T22:47:00.000Z-Beigedeath-2018-02-05T01:54:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:47, 6 February 2018 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Beigedeath-2018-02-06T22:47:00.000Z-Beigedeath-2018-02-05T01:54:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Beigedeath-2018-02-06T22:47:00.000Z-Beigedeath-2018-02-05T01:54:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-1">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">Luhmann, N. <i>Social Systems</i>. Stanford University Press, 1995, p. 177.</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-2"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-2">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">Luhmann, N. <i>Theory of Society, Vol. 2</i>. Stanford University Press, 2013, p. 293.</span> </li> <li id="cite_note-3"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-3">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text">Luhmann, N. <i>Theory of Society, Vol. 2</i>. Stanford University Press, 2013, p. 195.</span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Piyush_Mathur_?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Piyush_Mathur_?-2012-09-16T18:32:00.000Z"><span id="Piyush_Mathur_.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Piyush_Mathur_?-2012-09-16T18:32:00.000Z"></span>Piyush Mathur ?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Piyush_Mathur_?-2012-09-16T18:32:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Piyush Mathur ?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-91.229.89.218-2012-09-16T18:32:00.000Z-Piyush_Mathur_?"></span>I don't think Piyush Mathur is important enough to appear twice in this entry. Habermas is mentioned once, and who's Piyush Mathur? I looks like somebody nobody is trying to make his name on Luhmann's back. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/91.229.89.218" title="Special:Contributions/91.229.89.218">91.229.89.218</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:91.229.89.218" title="User talk:91.229.89.218">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-91.229.89.218-2012-09-16T18:32:00.000Z-Piyush_Mathur_?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:32, 16 September 2012 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-91.229.89.218-2012-09-16T18:32:00.000Z-Piyush_Mathur_?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-91.229.89.218-2012-09-16T18:32:00.000Z-Piyush_Mathur_?"></span> </p><p><br/> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Operational_Closure" data-mw-thread-id="h-Operational_Closure"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Operational_Closure"></span>Operational Closure<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Operational_Closure"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: Operational Closure"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>"Social systems are autopoietically closed in that they use and rely on resources from their environment;" shouldn't it spell "social systems are operationally closed .." as they can only rely on their enviroment if they are operationally close. </p><p>--- I rephrased the following: </p> <dl><dd>He studied law first and was then active as an administration expert, after research activity at the beginning of the sixties, 1966 graduation and habilitation in the faculty sociology at the University of Münster, since 1968 lecturing sociology at the University of Bielefeld, Germany.</dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Functional_Differentiation" data-mw-thread-id="h-Functional_Differentiation"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Functional_Differentiation"></span>Functional Differentiation<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Functional_Differentiation"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Functional Differentiation"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>Mention should probably be made of Luhmann's Die <i>x</i> der Gesellschaft, where <i>x</i> is Wirtschaft, Wissenshaft, Recht, and so on. In that connection, it wouldn't hurt to mention that functional differentiation plays a central role in his theory. A simple way of accomplishing this would be to base the English version of the article more closely on the German version... -- <a href="/wiki/User:Hyperion" class="mw-redirect" title="User:Hyperion">Hyperion</a> 04:04, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC) </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="About_Atheist_and_Anti-humanism" data-mw-thread-id="h-About_Atheist_and_Anti-humanism-2006-10-05T07:41:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-About_Atheist_and_Anti-humanism-2006-10-05T07:41:00.000Z"></span>About Atheist and Anti-humanism<span data-mw-comment-end="h-About_Atheist_and_Anti-humanism-2006-10-05T07:41:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: About Atheist and Anti-humanism"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <blockquote> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Skyliner852-2006-10-05T07:41:00.000Z-About_Atheist_and_Anti-humanism"></span>Is Luhmann generally considered to be an atheist? It seems he denies the existence of "entities" insofar as a "part to a whole" - there is no binding force of God as such, there are only systems consisting of operations which are not stable things and can change. So would he claim to be an atheist? </p> </blockquote> <p>I think Luhmann, as he proclaimed the role of sociologist, is an atheist, inasmuch as sociologist are oblige to observe those unobservable, such as transcendence. And in religion, precisely, belief as their means to reach holistic unity and identity becomes more salient in the course of secularization. Yet systems theorist draws distinction on what are considered undistinguisable. These arguments appears in his article "Society, Meaning, and Religion". </p><p><br/> </p> <blockquote> <p>Based on my readings of Luhmann it seems simplistic to call him anti-humanist. For his theory of social systems he was not interested in people but he recognized that people were responsible for bringing meaning into a system. To examine the meaning at that level one had to work at the level of psychic systems not social systems. Meaning is changed in components of a system. He again recognizes that meaning is changed by people but from the perspective of the social system the individual processes responsible for the meaning change could not be examined. He was interested in the communication itself. I am not sure he was so anti-humanist just that what is consider human would need to be considered by another perspective. </p> </blockquote> <p>In fact, I think Anti-humanist is a too vauge term, however, Luhmann can be considered a "methodological anti-humanist" by virtue of he does not deny the crucial importance of human being as the environment of social systems, and yet individual volition and agency that constitutes sociality is hereby eliminated. Motivation, communicative orientations, and so on are detached from human individual but reserve to communication itself. Hence his anti-humanism can be tuned down to a mere methodological level, just like what Weberian theory is regard a "methodological individualism" (one can refer to James Coleman's Foundation of Social Theory). <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Skyliner852&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Skyliner852 (page does not exist)">Skyliner852</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Skyliner852-2006-10-05T07:41:00.000Z-About_Atheist_and_Anti-humanism" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Skyliner852-2006-10-05T07:41:00.000Z-About_Atheist_and_Anti-humanism"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Skyliner852-2006-10-05T07:41:00.000Z-About_Atheist_and_Anti-humanism"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="references" data-mw-thread-id="h-references-2005-11-22T15:31:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-references-2005-11-22T15:31:00.000Z"></span>references<span data-mw-comment-end="h-references-2005-11-22T15:31:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: references"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Smmurphy-2005-11-22T15:31:00.000Z-references"></span>This article, esspecially the theory section, needs citations. I would love to be able to take this article as a starting point, and go to the debates and influences directly. Can anyone give some sources? <a href="/wiki/User:Smmurphy" title="User:Smmurphy">Smmurphy</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Smmurphy-2005-11-22T15:31:00.000Z-references" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:31, 22 November 2005 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Smmurphy-2005-11-22T15:31:00.000Z-references"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Smmurphy-2005-11-22T15:31:00.000Z-references"></span> </p><p><br/> </p> <hr/> <p>I think something should be mentioned about autopoietic theory of law. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="jean-francois_lyotard" data-mw-thread-id="h-jean-francois_lyotard-2006-03-27T07:31:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-jean-francois_lyotard-2006-03-27T07:31:00.000Z"></span>jean-francois lyotard<span data-mw-comment-end="h-jean-francois_lyotard-2006-03-27T07:31:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: jean-francois lyotard"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Thf1977-2006-03-27T07:31:00.000Z-jean-francois_lyotard"></span>Next to Habermas, the other famous person is Lyotard. In The Postmodern Condition the system theory of Luhman is critised as being a typical 'modern theory' (my words). The criticism is about the system being deterministic and the communicative nodes predictable and stable. </p> <dl><dd>I can't remember all of Lyotard's Postmodern Condition, but I seem to recall that it was published 5 years or so before Luhmann's Social Systems. I know that Luhmann published quite a bit in the 1970s as well, but still - did Lyotard really present a direct critique of Luhmann in that text, or was it aimed at general systems theory as such? --<a href="/wiki/User:Thf1977" title="User:Thf1977">Thf1977</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Thf1977-2006-03-27T07:31:00.000Z-jean-francois_lyotard" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">07:31, 27 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Thf1977-2006-03-27T07:31:00.000Z-jean-francois_lyotard"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Thf1977-2006-03-27T07:31:00.000Z-jean-francois_lyotard"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Freetrader-2006-03-27T18:21:00.000Z-Thf1977-2006-03-27T07:31:00.000Z"></span>According to Google Books Luhmann is mentioned 12 times, though with only one direct reference to a work of him, it is Legitimation durch verfahren. The critique is mostly on the level of general systems theory, but it is clear that Lyotard sees Luhmann as the endpoint of a development from Comte - Parsons - Luhmann. Also several times referring to the reaction of Habermas to Luhmann. Although i´m not familiair with the work of Luhmann, from what i read in Lyotard it seems that Luhmann would have had his theory of social systems largely in place at the time Lyotard writes the Postmodern C.----<a href="/wiki/User:Freetrader" title="User:Freetrader">Freetrader</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Freetrader-2006-03-27T18:21:00.000Z-Thf1977-2006-03-27T07:31:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:21, 27 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Freetrader-2006-03-27T18:21:00.000Z-Thf1977-2006-03-27T07:31:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Freetrader-2006-03-27T18:21:00.000Z-Thf1977-2006-03-27T07:31:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Thf1977-2006-03-28T08:50:00.000Z-Freetrader-2006-03-27T18:21:00.000Z"></span>As I see it (without being an expert on Parsonian systems theory), Luhmann's systems are not necessarily stable and they are less deterministic (although they are, of course, conditioned). Luhmann talks about constant paradoxes evolving, only to be solved by the passing of time, etc. I'm not saying that Lyotard doesn't mention Luhmann, only that his critique seems to be less about Luhmann's particular "brand" of systems theory than about Parsons. --<a href="/wiki/User:Thf1977" title="User:Thf1977">Thf1977</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Thf1977-2006-03-28T08:50:00.000Z-Freetrader-2006-03-27T18:21:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">08:50, 28 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Thf1977-2006-03-28T08:50:00.000Z-Freetrader-2006-03-27T18:21:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Thf1977-2006-03-28T08:50:00.000Z-Freetrader-2006-03-27T18:21:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Freetrader-2006-03-29T18:23:00.000Z-Thf1977-2006-03-28T08:50:00.000Z"></span>Rereading the parts where Lyotard discusses Luhmann, i don't agree with you. I have to withdraw my first statements however, which actually dó pertain more to Parsons then to Luhmann. The point of Lyotard seems to be that in the systems of Luhmann, every disagreement (paradox?)is manipulated by the system to eventually contribute to the higher performence of the system (60/61 Google). And also: 'Administrative procedures should make individuals “want” what the system needs ...'. A few pages later he calls the systems of Luhmann terroristic: they supress 'difference'.--<a href="/wiki/User:Freetrader" title="User:Freetrader">Freetrader</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Freetrader-2006-03-29T18:23:00.000Z-Thf1977-2006-03-28T08:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">18:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Freetrader-2006-03-29T18:23:00.000Z-Thf1977-2006-03-28T08:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Freetrader-2006-03-29T18:23:00.000Z-Thf1977-2006-03-28T08:50:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id=""founder"" data-mw-thread-id="h-"founder"-2006-09-18T09:23:00.000Z"><span id=".22founder.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-"founder"-2006-09-18T09:23:00.000Z"></span>"founder"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-"founder"-2006-09-18T09:23:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: "founder""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Thf1977-2006-09-18T09:23:00.000Z-"founder""></span>I changed the first sentence from "the founder of sociological systems theory" to "as well as one the most prominent modern day thinkers in the sociological systems theory". It could be argued that Durkheim was the founder (although this is a stretch), but most importantly we must not forget Talcott Parsons, in response to whom Luhmann wrote many articles. </p> <dl><dd>Agree. Parsons contribution to systems theory cannot be ignored! --<a href="/wiki/User:Thf1977" title="User:Thf1977">Thf1977</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Thf1977-2006-09-18T09:23:00.000Z-"founder"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">09:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Thf1977-2006-09-18T09:23:00.000Z-"founder""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Thf1977-2006-09-18T09:23:00.000Z-"founder""></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Image" data-mw-thread-id="h-Image-2006-11-03T00:41:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Image-2006-11-03T00:41:00.000Z"></span>Image<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Image-2006-11-03T00:41:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Image"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-ExplicitImplicity-2006-11-03T00:41:00.000Z-Image"></span><figure typeof="mw:Error mw:File/Thumb"><a href="//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload?wpDestFile=!!!LUHMANN,N..JPG" class="new" title="File:!!!LUHMANN,N..JPG"><span class="mw-file-element mw-broken-media" data-width="100">File:!!!LUHMANN,N..JPG</span></a><figcaption></figcaption></figure> <p>On Commons there is this sketch of Luhmann. I believe it is better than nothing, though not quite perfect. Have a look yourself. -- <span style="background: #fff; font-family: Tw Cen MT, Futura, sans-serif;"><a href="/wiki/User:ExplicitImplicity" title="User:ExplicitImplicity"><span style="color:black">ExpImp</span></a><sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:ExplicitImplicity" title="User talk:ExplicitImplicity"><span style="color:green">talk</span></a><a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/ExplicitImplicity" title="Special:Contributions/ExplicitImplicity"><span style="color:red">con</span></a></sup></span> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-ExplicitImplicity-2006-11-03T00:41:00.000Z-Image" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-ExplicitImplicity-2006-11-03T00:41:00.000Z-Image"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-ExplicitImplicity-2006-11-03T00:41:00.000Z-Image"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Thorsten1-2006-11-14T17:53:00.000Z-ExplicitImplicity-2006-11-03T00:41:00.000Z"></span>I believe the opposite: even nothing is better than this... ;) --<a href="/wiki/User:Thorsten1" title="User:Thorsten1">Thorsten1</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Thorsten1-2006-11-14T17:53:00.000Z-ExplicitImplicity-2006-11-03T00:41:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Thorsten1-2006-11-14T17:53:00.000Z-ExplicitImplicity-2006-11-03T00:41:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Thorsten1-2006-11-14T17:53:00.000Z-ExplicitImplicity-2006-11-03T00:41:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Removed_Laws_of_Form_paragraph" data-mw-thread-id="h-Removed_Laws_of_Form_paragraph"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Removed_Laws_of_Form_paragraph"></span>Removed Laws of Form paragraph<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Removed_Laws_of_Form_paragraph"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Removed Laws of Form paragraph"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <blockquote><p>Spencer-Brown's book "<a href="/wiki/Laws_of_Form" title="Laws of Form">Laws of Form</a>" pretends to do away with logic as it had been known until then altogether. Accordingly, Spencer-Brown praises himself in the preface of this book as the author of the "most intelligent book in the universe." Yet Maturana applies pre-Spencer-Brown logic. Therefore, Luhmann's claim to truth rests entirely on Spencer-Brown being what he pretends to be. Maturana cannot be reconciled with Spencer-Brown in the issue of autopoiesis, and Maturana has explicitly refused to be cited by Luhmann as a supporting theorist.<sup class="noprint Inline-Template Template-Fact" style="white-space:nowrap;">[<i><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed" title="Wikipedia:Citation needed"><span title="This claim needs references to reliable sources. (February 2007)">citation needed</span></a></i>]</sup></p></blockquote> <p>This paragraph is very confusing as to what it's trying to convey, gives a very reductive and biased treatment of Spencer-Brown's work, and argues using statements based on explicit but unsourced quotations. I've removed it for now until someone wants to clean it up and/or fact check. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Systems_Scientist?" data-mw-thread-id="h-Systems_Scientist?-2007-09-14T13:12:00.000Z"><span id="Systems_Scientist.3F"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Systems_Scientist?-2007-09-14T13:12:00.000Z"></span>Systems Scientist?<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Systems_Scientist?-2007-09-14T13:12:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=11" title="Edit section: Systems Scientist?"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-134.102.3.20-2007-09-14T13:12:00.000Z-Systems_Scientist?"></span>I think sounds strange that <a href="/wiki/MDD" class="mw-disambig" title="MDD">MDD</a> categorised Luhmann as a system scientist. Luhmann considered himself as a social theorist (not a social scientist doing empirical research). As a constructivist and a sociologist who considered society as an emergent phenomenon, he was strongly opposed to many reductionist assumptions, which are generally associated with science. --<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:134.102.3.20&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:134.102.3.20 (page does not exist)">134.102.3.20</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-134.102.3.20-2007-09-14T13:12:00.000Z-Systems_Scientist?" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">13:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-134.102.3.20-2007-09-14T13:12:00.000Z-Systems_Scientist?"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-134.102.3.20-2007-09-14T13:12:00.000Z-Systems_Scientist?"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T11:45:00.000Z-134.102.3.20-2007-09-14T13:12:00.000Z"></span>I can see where you're coming from, and it may sound strange, but <a href="/wiki/Systems_science" title="Systems science">systems science</a> can have a broader definition too which can easily include <a href="/wiki/Systems_theory" title="Systems theory">systems theory</a>. The empirical/theoretical dichotomy doesn't really apply here. Oddly enough, <a href="/wiki/Category:Systems_scientists" title="Category:Systems scientists">Category:Systems scientists</a> is a subcategory of <a href="/wiki/Category:Systems_theory" title="Category:Systems theory">Category:Systems theory</a>. ---<a href="/wiki/User:Sluzzelin" title="User:Sluzzelin">Sluzzelin</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sluzzelin" title="User talk:Sluzzelin"><small>talk</small></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T11:45:00.000Z-134.102.3.20-2007-09-14T13:12:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T11:45:00.000Z-134.102.3.20-2007-09-14T13:12:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T11:45:00.000Z-134.102.3.20-2007-09-14T13:12:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mdd-2008-05-23T12:24:00.000Z-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T11:45:00.000Z"></span>The article itselve introduces Luhmann as a <a href="/wiki/Social_system" title="Social system">social systems</a> theorist:</dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><i><b>Niklas Luhmann</b> (<a href="/wiki/December_8" title="December 8">December 8</a>, <a href="/wiki/1927" title="1927">1927</a> - <a href="/wiki/November_6" title="November 6">November 6</a>, <a href="/wiki/1998" title="1998">1998</a>) was a <a href="/wiki/Germany" title="Germany">German</a> <a href="/wiki/Sociologist" class="mw-redirect" title="Sociologist">sociologist</a>, administration expert, and <a href="/wiki/Social_system" title="Social system">social systems</a> theorist, as well as one of the most prominent modern day thinkers in sociological <a href="/wiki/Systems_theory" title="Systems theory">systems theory</a>.</i></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd>Now I consider <a href="/wiki/Social_system" title="Social system">social systems</a> theorist, part of the <a href="/w/index.php?title=Social_systems_theorist&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Social systems theorist (page does not exist)">social systems theorists</a> part of the systems scientists. Just like I consider <a href="/wiki/Social_systems_theory" class="mw-disambig" title="Social systems theory">social systems theory</a> as a part of <a href="/wiki/Systems_science" title="Systems science">systems science</a>. See here <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Systems#Overview_of_the_field_of_Systems_science" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Systems">Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Systems#Overview of the field of Systems science</a>. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Mdd" title="User:Mdd">Marcel Douwe Dekker</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mdd" title="User talk:Mdd">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Mdd-2008-05-23T12:24:00.000Z-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T11:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mdd-2008-05-23T12:24:00.000Z-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T11:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mdd-2008-05-23T12:24:00.000Z-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T11:45:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T12:42:00.000Z-Mdd-2008-05-23T12:24:00.000Z"></span>Agreed, which is why I found "Systems scientists" being a subcat of "Systems theory" a bit confusing. ---<a href="/wiki/User:Sluzzelin" title="User:Sluzzelin">Sluzzelin</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:Sluzzelin" title="User talk:Sluzzelin"><small>talk</small></a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T12:42:00.000Z-Mdd-2008-05-23T12:24:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T12:42:00.000Z-Mdd-2008-05-23T12:24:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T12:42:00.000Z-Mdd-2008-05-23T12:24:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Mdd-2008-05-23T12:59:00.000Z-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T12:42:00.000Z"></span>Ok. Now I understand. The thing is, that the "<a href="/wiki/Category:Systems_scientists" title="Category:Systems scientists">Category:Systems scientists</a>" started as the <a href="/w/index.php?title=Category:Systems_theory_researchers&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Category:Systems theory researchers (page does not exist)">Category:Systems theory researchers</a> in 2004. I renamed it in July 2007 to the Category:Systems scientists. Now the <a href="/wiki/Category:Systems_scientists" title="Category:Systems scientists">Category:Systems scientists</a> has several subcategories, but non in the specific "general" fiels of systems theory. -- <a href="/wiki/User:Mdd" title="User:Mdd">Marcel Douwe Dekker</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Mdd" title="User talk:Mdd">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-Mdd-2008-05-23T12:59:00.000Z-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T12:42:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Mdd-2008-05-23T12:59:00.000Z-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T12:42:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Mdd-2008-05-23T12:59:00.000Z-Sluzzelin-2008-05-23T12:42:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd><dl><dd>Ps. The <a href="/wiki/Category:Systems_scientists" title="Category:Systems scientists">Category:Systems scientists</a> also doesn't contain a categorie <a href="/w/index.php?title=Social_systems_scientists&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Social systems scientists (page does not exist)">Social systems scientists</a>. And the English Wikipedia doesn't have a separate article on <a href="/wiki/Social_systems_theory" class="mw-disambig" title="Social systems theory">Social systems theory</a> and on <a href="/wiki/Social_system" title="Social system">social system</a>. I am working on this, but this will still take some time.</dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Overview_over_his_work" data-mw-thread-id="h-Overview_over_his_work"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Overview_over_his_work"></span>Overview over his work<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Overview_over_his_work"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=12" title="Edit section: Overview over his work"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span></div> <p>Hi there, I corrected the figures about his work. I have a list of his bibliography at hand which shows 70 Books and 382 articles but which is not totally up to date. The problem is that there are translations of his works all the time (e.g. Luhmann, N. 2008. Are there still indispensible Norms in Our Society? Soziale Systeme 14, 1, 18-37) and also books which are published posthumously, e.g. 'Die Moral der Gesellschaft' in 2008. </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Pictures" data-mw-thread-id="h-Pictures-2011-12-20T01:53:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Pictures-2011-12-20T01:53:00.000Z"></span>Pictures<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Pictures-2011-12-20T01:53:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=13" title="Edit section: Pictures"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-186.153.191.72-2011-12-20T01:53:00.000Z-Pictures"></span>Add pix k?thxbye <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/186.153.191.72" title="Special:Contributions/186.153.191.72">186.153.191.72</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:186.153.191.72&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:186.153.191.72 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-186.153.191.72-2011-12-20T01:53:00.000Z-Pictures" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">01:53, 20 December 2011 (UTC)</a></span><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-186.153.191.72-2011-12-20T01:53:00.000Z-Pictures"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-186.153.191.72-2011-12-20T01:53:00.000Z-Pictures"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-88.78.37.16-2014-06-09T16:26:00.000Z-186.153.191.72-2011-12-20T01:53:00.000Z"></span>The last one was way better :( --<a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/88.78.37.16" title="Special:Contributions/88.78.37.16">88.78.37.16</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:88.78.37.16&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:88.78.37.16 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-88.78.37.16-2014-06-09T16:26:00.000Z-186.153.191.72-2011-12-20T01:53:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:26, 9 June 2014 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-88.78.37.16-2014-06-09T16:26:00.000Z-186.153.191.72-2011-12-20T01:53:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-88.78.37.16-2014-06-09T16:26:00.000Z-186.153.191.72-2011-12-20T01:53:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Communicative_action" data-mw-thread-id="h-Communicative_action-2014-12-01T15:55:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Communicative_action-2014-12-01T15:55:00.000Z"></span>Communicative action<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Communicative_action-2014-12-01T15:55:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=14" title="Edit section: Communicative action"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-193.231.20.220-2014-12-01T15:55:00.000Z-Communicative_action"></span>For Luhmann, the Term "kommunicative action" would have been a Pleonasm. I think it is therefor incorrectly used in this article! <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/193.231.20.220" title="Special:Contributions/193.231.20.220">193.231.20.220</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:193.231.20.220&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:193.231.20.220 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-193.231.20.220-2014-12-01T15:55:00.000Z-Communicative_action" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:55, 1 December 2014 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-193.231.20.220-2014-12-01T15:55:00.000Z-Communicative_action"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-193.231.20.220-2014-12-01T15:55:00.000Z-Communicative_action"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="why_is_homie_a_cartoon_character" data-mw-thread-id="h-why_is_homie_a_cartoon_character-2021-02-13T15:02:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-why_is_homie_a_cartoon_character-2021-02-13T15:02:00.000Z"></span>why is homie a cartoon character<span data-mw-comment-end="h-why_is_homie_a_cartoon_character-2021-02-13T15:02:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=15" title="Edit section: why is homie a cartoon character"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2600:1700:3EC2:9210:A5C4:975A:EFFF:5999-2021-02-13T15:02:00.000Z-why_is_homie_a_cartoon_character"></span>why is homie a cartoon character <small class="autosigned">— Preceding <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures" title="Wikipedia:Signatures">unsigned</a> comment added by <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2600:1700:3EC2:9210:A5C4:975A:EFFF:5999" title="Special:Contributions/2600:1700:3EC2:9210:A5C4:975A:EFFF:5999">2600:1700:3EC2:9210:A5C4:975A:EFFF:5999</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2600:1700:3EC2:9210:A5C4:975A:EFFF:5999&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2600:1700:3EC2:9210:A5C4:975A:EFFF:5999 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-2600:1700:3EC2:9210:A5C4:975A:EFFF:5999-2021-02-13T15:02:00.000Z-why_is_homie_a_cartoon_character" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">15:02, 13 February 2021 (UTC)</a></small><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2600:1700:3EC2:9210:A5C4:975A:EFFF:5999-2021-02-13T15:02:00.000Z-why_is_homie_a_cartoon_character"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2600:1700:3EC2:9210:A5C4:975A:EFFF:5999-2021-02-13T15:02:00.000Z-why_is_homie_a_cartoon_character"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Citation_does_not_support_"one_of_the_most_important_social_theorists"" data-mw-thread-id="h-Citation_does_not_support_"one_of_the_most_important_social_theorists"-20220901035500"><span id="Citation_does_not_support_.22one_of_the_most_important_social_theorists.22"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Citation_does_not_support_"one_of_the_most_important_social_theorists"-20220901035500"></span>Citation does not support "one of the most important social theorists"<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Citation_does_not_support_"one_of_the_most_important_social_theorists"-20220901035500"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&action=edit&section=16" title="Edit section: Citation does not support "one of the most important social theorists""><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nico-Stehr/publication/240357847_Bechmann_Gotthard_and_Nico_Stehr_The_legacy_of_Niklas_Luhmann_Society_39_67-75_2002/links/0046351e9728397cb8000000/Bechmann-Gotthard-and-Nico-Stehr-The-legacy-of-Niklas-Luhmann-Society-39-67-75-2002.pdf"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-2601:282:B00:34DA:C8F6:66C0:963E:ED26-20220901035500-Citation_does_not_support_"one_of_the_most_important_social_theorists""></span>"THE LEGACY OF NIKLAS LUHMANN" by Bechmann and Stehr</a> does not support the opening statement that Luhmann is "considered one of the most important social theorists of the 20th century." Instead, it states: </p> <dl><dd>In some of the many and extensive obituaries published in European newspapers and magazines in 1999, Niklas Luhmann is remembered as the most important social theorist of the 20th century. Yet in much of the Anglo-Saxon world he is virtually unknown among professional social scientists.</dd></dl> <p>I'm removing the phrase, but I think it could be replaced with something better cited. <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/2601:282:B00:34DA:C8F6:66C0:963E:ED26" title="Special:Contributions/2601:282:B00:34DA:C8F6:66C0:963E:ED26">2601:282:B00:34DA:C8F6:66C0:963E:ED26</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2601:282:B00:34DA:C8F6:66C0:963E:ED26&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:2601:282:B00:34DA:C8F6:66C0:963E:ED26 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Niklas_Luhmann#c-2601:282:B00:34DA:C8F6:66C0:963E:ED26-20220901035500-Citation_does_not_support_"one_of_the_most_important_social_theorists"" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:55, 1 September 2022 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-2601:282:B00:34DA:C8F6:66C0:963E:ED26-20220901035500-Citation_does_not_support_"one_of_the_most_important_social_theorists""><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-2601:282:B00:34DA:C8F6:66C0:963E:ED26-20220901035500-Citation_does_not_support_"one_of_the_most_important_social_theorists""></span> </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; position: absolute;"></noscript> <div class="printfooter" data-nosnippet="">Retrieved from "<a dir="ltr" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&oldid=1193891202">https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Niklas_Luhmann&oldid=1193891202</a>"</div></div> <div 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