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data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-toc.pin">move to sidebar</button> <button class="vector-pinnable-header-toggle-button vector-pinnable-header-unpin-button" data-event-name="pinnable-header.vector-toc.unpin">hide</button> </div> <ul class="vector-toc-contents" id="mw-panel-toc-list"> <li id="toc-mw-content-text" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1"> <a href="#" class="vector-toc-link"> <div class="vector-toc-text">(Top)</div> </a> </li> <li id="toc-The_word_"dash"_is_often_used_differently" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#The_word_"dash"_is_often_used_differently"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">1</span> <span>The word "dash" is often used differently</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-The_word_"dash"_is_often_used_differently-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Please_add_a_row_for_entering_characters_in_Google_Docs_(ad_maybe_Sheets_and_Presentations)" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Please_add_a_row_for_entering_characters_in_Google_Docs_(ad_maybe_Sheets_and_Presentations)"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">2</span> <span>Please add a row for entering characters in Google Docs (ad maybe Sheets and Presentations)</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Please_add_a_row_for_entering_characters_in_Google_Docs_(ad_maybe_Sheets_and_Presentations)-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-No_obvious_violation_of_WP:NPOV_or_WP:NOTGUIDE" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#No_obvious_violation_of_WP:NPOV_or_WP:NOTGUIDE"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">3</span> <span>No obvious violation of WP:NPOV or WP:NOTGUIDE</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-No_obvious_violation_of_WP:NPOV_or_WP:NOTGUIDE-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Bringhurst's_criticism_of_the_em_dash_is_only_one_opinion" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Bringhurst's_criticism_of_the_em_dash_is_only_one_opinion"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">4</span> <span>Bringhurst's criticism of the em dash is only one opinion</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">4 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Bringhurst's_criticism_of_the_em_dash_is_only_one_opinion-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-5x" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#5x"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">5</span> <span>5x</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">2 comments</span> <ul id="toc-5x-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Example_of_hyphens_used_as_en-dashes" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Example_of_hyphens_used_as_en-dashes"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">6</span> <span>Example of hyphens used as en-dashes</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Example_of_hyphens_used_as_en-dashes-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-New_York-London_flight" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#New_York-London_flight"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">7</span> <span>New York-London flight</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-New_York-London_flight-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Use_of_en-dashes_for_description_of/elaboration_on_listed_items" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Use_of_en-dashes_for_description_of/elaboration_on_listed_items"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">8</span> <span>Use of en-dashes for description of/elaboration on listed items</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Use_of_en-dashes_for_description_of/elaboration_on_listed_items-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Suspended_section_"Typing_the_characters"._Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual." class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Suspended_section_"Typing_the_characters"._Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual."> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">9</span> <span>Suspended section "Typing the characters". Wikipedia is not a manual.</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">3 comments</span> <ul id="toc-Suspended_section_"Typing_the_characters"._Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual.-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> <li id="toc-Compound_sentence" class="vector-toc-list-item vector-toc-level-1 vector-toc-list-item-expanded"> <a class="vector-toc-link" href="#Compound_sentence"> <div class="vector-toc-text"> <span class="vector-toc-numb">10</span> <span>Compound sentence</span> </div> </a> <span class="ext-discussiontools-init-sidebar-meta">1 comment</span> <ul id="toc-Compound_sentence-sublist" class="vector-toc-list"> </ul> </li> </ul> </div> </div> </nav> </div> </div> <div class="mw-content-container"> <main id="content" class="mw-body"> <header class="mw-body-header vector-page-titlebar"> <nav aria-label="Contents" class="vector-toc-landmark"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown vector-page-titlebar-toc vector-button-flush-left" > <input type="checkbox" id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-vector-page-titlebar-toc" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox " aria-label="Toggle the table of contents" > <label id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-label" for="vector-page-titlebar-toc-checkbox" class="vector-dropdown-label cdx-button cdx-button--fake-button cdx-button--fake-button--enabled cdx-button--weight-quiet cdx-button--icon-only " aria-hidden="true" ><span class="vector-icon mw-ui-icon-listBullet mw-ui-icon-wikimedia-listBullet"></span> <span class="vector-dropdown-label-text">Toggle the table of contents</span> </label> <div class="vector-dropdown-content"> <div id="vector-page-titlebar-toc-unpinned-container" class="vector-unpinned-container"> </div> </div> </div> </nav> <h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading mw-first-heading"><span class="mw-page-title-namespace">Talk</span><span class="mw-page-title-separator">:</span><span class="mw-page-title-main">Dash</span></h1> <div id="p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown mw-portlet mw-portlet-lang mw-portlet-lang-icon-only" > <input type="checkbox" id="p-lang-btn-checkbox" role="button" aria-haspopup="true" data-event-name="ui.dropdown-p-lang-btn" class="vector-dropdown-checkbox mw-interlanguage-selector-empty" aria-label="This article exist only in this language. 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class="mw-content-ltr mw-parser-output" lang="en" dir="ltr"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1237879475">.mw-parser-output .tmbox{margin:4px 0;border-collapse:collapse;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:#f8eaba;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmbox.mbox-small{font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-speedy{border:2px solid #b32424;background-color:#fee7e6}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-delete{border:2px solid #b32424}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-content{border:2px solid #f28500}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-style{border:2px solid #fc3}.mw-parser-output .tmbox-move{border:2px solid #9932cc}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-text{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-image{border:none;padding:2px 0 2px 0.9em;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-imageright{border:none;padding:2px 0.9em 2px 0;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .tmbox .mbox-empty-cell{border:none;padding:0;width:1px}.mw-parser-output .tmbox 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.talkheader-shortcuts{display:flex;align-items:center;padding:0.1em}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help{flex:2 1 auto;border:1px solid #c0c090;background-color:var(--background-color-base,#ffffff);color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies+.talkheader-policies{border-left:1px solid #c0c090}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts{flex:0 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies>*,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-shortcuts>*{flex:1 1 auto}.mw-parser-output .talkheader-help ul,.mw-parser-output .talkheader-policies ul{margin:0.1em 0.8em 0 1.6em;text-align:left}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .talkheader{min-width:80%}}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice talkheader plainlinks" id="talkheader" style="border-collapse: separate;"><tbody><tr> <td style="border-bottom: 1px solid #c0c090; font-weight: bold;">This is the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines" title="Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines">talk page</a> for discussing improvements to the <a href="/wiki/Dash" title="Dash">Dash</a> article.<br/> This is <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#FORUM" title="Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not">not a forum</a> for general discussion of the article's subject.</td> </tr> <tr> <td> <div class="talkheader-body"> <div class="talkheader-help"> <ul><li>Put new text under old text. <strong><a href="/wiki/Special:NewSection/Talk:Dash" title="Special:NewSection/Talk:Dash">Click here to start a new topic.</a></strong></li> <li>New to Wikipedia? 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view">Neutral point of view</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research" title="Wikipedia:No original research">No original research</a></li> <li><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability" title="Wikipedia:Verifiability">Verifiability</a></li></ul> </div> </div> </div> </td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 1px 3px;"><span class="plainlinks"><i>Find sources:</i> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?as_eq=wikipedia&q=%22Dash%22">Google</a> (<a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&q=%22Dash%22+-wikipedia">books</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=%22Dash%22+-wikipedia&tbs=ar:1">news</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Dash%22">scholar</a> <b>·</b> <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" 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href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page" title="Help:Archiving a talk page">Archives</a>:</b> <a href="/wiki/Talk:Dash/Archive_index" title="Talk:Dash/Archive index">Index</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Dash/Archive_1" title="Talk:Dash/Archive 1">1</a>, <a href="/wiki/Talk:Dash/Archive_2" title="Talk:Dash/Archive 2">2</a><span style="position: relative; top: 2px; float: right; font-size: 90%; margin-left: 1em;"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1038841319">.mw-parser-output .tooltip-dotted{border-bottom:1px dotted;cursor:help}</style><span class="rt-commentedText tooltip tooltip-dotted" title="Discussions with timestamps are automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III after 180 days of inactivity when more than 7 threads are present.">Auto-archiving period</span>: <b>6 months</b> <span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page#Automated_archiving" title="Help:Archiving a talk page"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/16px-Information_icon4.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/24px-Information_icon4.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/32px-Information_icon4.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="620" data-file-height="620"/></a></span></span></td> </tr><tr><td style="border-top: 1px solid #c0c090; padding: 0;"><div> <div class="mw-inputbox-centered" style=""><form name="searchbox" class="searchbox mw-inputbox-form-inline" action="/wiki/Special:Search"><div class="cdx-text-input"><input class="mw-searchInput searchboxInput cdx-text-input__input" name="search" placeholder="" size="50" dir="ltr"/></div><input type="hidden" value="Talk:Dash/" name="prefix"/> <input type="submit" name="fulltext" value="Search archives" class="cdx-button"/><input type="hidden" value="Search" name="fulltext"/></form></div> </div></td> </tr> </tbody></table><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1243927654">.mw-parser-output .banner-shell{border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:4px}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-header{text-align:center;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{padding:2px 4px;background:#fffaef;color:inherit;border:1px dotted gray}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{background:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner{background:#2e2505}}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell .tmbox{margin:2px 0;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell .tmbox.mbox-small{line-height:1.5em;font-size:100%}.mw-parser-output .banner-shell-inner .banner-shell-outside{display:none}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .wpbs{width:80%}}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .assess{width:60px;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-header{border:none;padding:0.25em 0.9em 0.25em 0}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-header{display:table-row}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb:not(.mw-collapsed) .wpb-header-icon a{display:none}</style><table role="presentation" class="tmbox tmbox-notice banner-shell wpbs mw-collapsible"><tbody><tr><td class="assess"><span class="noviewer" typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Symbol_b_class.svg" class="mw-file-description" title="B-Class article"><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/Symbol_b_class.svg/35px-Symbol_b_class.svg.png" decoding="async" width="35" height="36" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/Symbol_b_class.svg/53px-Symbol_b_class.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/Symbol_b_class.svg/70px-Symbol_b_class.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="180" data-file-height="185"/></a></span></td><td class="banner-shell-header" style="text-align:left;font-weight:normal">This <span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg/16px-C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg.png" decoding="async" width="16" height="16" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg/24px-C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg/32px-C%C3%ADrculos_Conc%C3%A9ntricos.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="215" data-file-height="215"/></span></span> <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/Society_and_social_sciences/Culture#Grammar" title="Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Society and social sciences/Culture">level-5 vital article</a></b> is rated <b>B-class</b> on Wikipedia's <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment" title="Wikipedia:Content assessment">content assessment</a> scale.<br/>It is of interest to the following <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject">WikiProjects</a>:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="banner-shell-inner outercollapse"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1259570071">.mw-parser-output .wpb-header,.mw-parser-output .wpb-metadata,.mw-parser-output .wpb-iefix{display:none}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-name{text-align:right;padding:0.3em 1em 0.3em 0.3em;width:50%;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-assessment{text-align:left;width:50%;padding:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-combined{text-align:left;padding:0.3em 0.3em 0.3em 0;font-weight:bold}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-bubbles{border-radius:.5em;padding:0 .3em;margin-left:0.5em;white-space:nowrap;font-weight:normal;color:black}.mw-parser-output .wpb-nested-task-force{font-weight:normal}.mw-parser-output .wpb-header-icon{width:50px;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#F5F5F5;border-width:1px;width:500px}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main{background-color:#FFFAEF;padding:3px 0 3px 0.7em}.mw-parser-output .wpb .wpb-main{padding:3px 5px}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#FFFAEF}.mw-parser-output .wpb-main>table{background-color:transparent;border:none;padding:0;width:100%;border-spacing:0}.mw-parser-output .wpb .wpb-image{padding:2px 0}.mw-parser-output .wpb-collapsed-head{text-align:left;padding:0.2em 2px 0.2em 0}.mw-parser-output .wpb-collapsed-notes{padding:0}.mw-parser-output .wpb-collapsed-notes>table{width:100%;background-color:transparent}.mw-parser-output .wpb .wpb-gutter{padding:2px 0 0 0}.mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#f8eaba;border:none}.mw-parser-output .wpb-table{table-layout:fixed}@media(min-width:720px){.mw-parser-output .wpb{min-width:80%}}.mw-parser-output .assess{font-weight:bold;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;color:black}.mw-parser-output .import-top{background-color:#FFBFFF}.mw-parser-output .import-high{background-color:#FFCCFF}.mw-parser-output .import-mid{background-color:#FFD9FF}.mw-parser-output .import-low{background-color:#FFE7FF}.mw-parser-output .import-bottom{background-color:#FFEBFF}.mw-parser-output .import-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .import-unknown{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .class-fa,.mw-parser-output .class-fl,.mw-parser-output .class-fm{background-color:#BED3FF}.mw-parser-output .class-a,.mw-parser-output .class-al{background-color:#C0FFFF}.mw-parser-output .class-ga{background-color:#C0FFC0}.mw-parser-output .class-b,.mw-parser-output .class-bl{background-color:#DFFFBF}.mw-parser-output .class-c,.mw-parser-output .class-cl{background-color:#FFFFBE}.mw-parser-output .class-start{background-color:#FFDBBF}.mw-parser-output .class-stub,.mw-parser-output .class-sl{background-color:#FFC0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-list{background-color:#D2C0FF}.mw-parser-output .class-na{background-color:#F5F5F5}.mw-parser-output .class-category{background-color:#FFDB58}.mw-parser-output .class-disambig{background-color:#00FA9A}.mw-parser-output .class-draft{background-color:#E7B198}.mw-parser-output .class-file{background-color:#DDCCFF}.mw-parser-output .class-future{background-color:#B4BBFF}.mw-parser-output .class-portal{background-color:#DDB1BC}.mw-parser-output .class-project{background-color:#C0C090}.mw-parser-output .class-redirect{background-color:#C0C0C0}.mw-parser-output .class-sia{background-color:#E9DAFF}.mw-parser-output .class-user{background-color:#DDD06A}.mw-parser-output .class-template{background-color:#FBCEB1}.mw-parser-output .class-unassessed{background-color:#DCDCDC}.mw-parser-output .conflict{border:0.2em solid red}.mw-parser-output .inactive-wikiproject .wpb-header-bubbles{color:inherit}@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpb-category-box{background-color:#0a0a0a}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb .wpb-main,html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .wpb-header{background-color:#302f2d}html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .wpbs .banner-shell-inner{background-color:#2e2505}}</style><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Adobe_Caslon_a.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Adobe_Caslon_a.svg/25px-Adobe_Caslon_a.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Adobe_Caslon_a.svg/38px-Adobe_Caslon_a.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Adobe_Caslon_a.svg/50px-Adobe_Caslon_a.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="336" data-file-height="336"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Typography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Typography">Typography</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-high">High‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Adobe_Caslon_a.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Adobe_Caslon_a.svg/80px-Adobe_Caslon_a.svg.png" decoding="async" width="80" height="80" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Adobe_Caslon_a.svg/120px-Adobe_Caslon_a.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Adobe_Caslon_a.svg/160px-Adobe_Caslon_a.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="336" data-file-height="336"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Typography" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Typography">WikiProject Typography</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to <a href="/wiki/Typography" title="Typography">Typography</a> on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Typography" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Typography">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Typography</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Typography</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Typography</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Typography articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-high"><a href="/wiki/Category:High-importance_Typography_articles" title="Category:High-importance Typography articles">High</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>High-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team/Release_Version_Criteria#Importance_of_topic" title="Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Release Version Criteria">importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1237879475"><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1259570071"><table class="tmbox tmbox-notice mw-collapsible innercollapse wpb wpb-table"><tbody><tr class="wpb-header"><td class="wpb-header-icon"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg/25px-Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="25" height="25" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg/38px-Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg/50px-Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="50" data-file-height="50"/></a></span></td><td class="wpb-header-combined"><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Graphic_design" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Graphic design">Graphic design</a> <span class="wpb-header-bubbles import-low">Low‑importance</span></td></tr><tr><td class="mbox-text wpb-main" colspan="2"><table><tbody><tr><td class="mbox-image wpb-image"><span typeof="mw:File"><a href="/wiki/File:Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg" class="mw-file-description"><img alt="WikiProject icon" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg/50px-Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg.png" decoding="async" width="50" height="50" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg/75px-Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg/100px-Graphic_design_WikiProject_banner_icon.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="50" data-file-height="50"/></a></span></td><td class="mbox-text">This article is within the scope of <b><a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Graphic_design" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Graphic design">WikiProject Graphic design</a></b>, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of <a href="/wiki/Graphic_design" title="Graphic design">graphic design</a>-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Graphic_design" title="Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Graphic design">the discussion</a> and see a list of open tasks.<span class="metadata wpb-metadata"><span class="wpb-project">Graphic design</span><span class="wpb-project_link">Wikipedia:WikiProject Graphic design</span><span class="wpb-banner_name">Template:WikiProject Graphic design</span><span class="wpb-assessment_cat">Graphic design articles</span></span></td><td class="mbox-empty-cell"></td></tr><tr><td class="assess import-low"><a href="/wiki/Category:Low-importance_Graphic_design_articles" title="Category:Low-importance Graphic design articles">Low</a></td><td class="mbox-text" colspan="2">This article has been rated as <b>Low-importance</b> on the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Graphic_design/Assessment#Importance_scale" title="Wikipedia:WikiProject Graphic design/Assessment">project's importance scale</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> <p class="mw-empty-elt"> </p> <meta property="mw:PageProp/toc"/> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="The_word_"dash"_is_often_used_differently" data-mw-thread-id="h-The_word_"dash"_is_often_used_differently-2020-12-28T17:31:00.000Z"><span id="The_word_.22dash.22_is_often_used_differently"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-The_word_"dash"_is_often_used_differently-2020-12-28T17:31:00.000Z"></span>The word "dash" is often used differently<span data-mw-comment-end="h-The_word_"dash"_is_often_used_differently-2020-12-28T17:31:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dash&action=edit&section=1" title="Edit section: The word "dash" is often used differently"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Omc-2020-12-28T17:31:00.000Z-The_word_"dash"_is_often_used_differently"></span>The article refers to the dash character, which of course has a well-established meaning. But people often use the word dash to refer to the hyphen character. This has been true for a long time, and is even more widespread with the rise of the internet. (Example: "The web address is oak dash valley dash hotel dot com.") </p><p>I understand the structure of the article, and I'm sure it's consistent with the structure of other articles describing each character. But I think this common usage should also be acknowledged.This may not be a "correct" usage, but it's a common and widespread. An encyclopedia should be descriptive rather than prescriptive. I'm not suggesting diluting the detailed description. But the article deserves a separate section to describe this this common and widespread usage of dash referring to hyphen. </p><p><a href="/wiki/User:Omc" title="User:Omc">Omc</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Omc" title="User talk:Omc">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-Omc-2020-12-28T17:31:00.000Z-The_word_"dash"_is_often_used_differently" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:31, 28 December 2020 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Omc-2020-12-28T17:31:00.000Z-The_word_"dash"_is_often_used_differently"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Omc-2020-12-28T17:31:00.000Z-The_word_"dash"_is_often_used_differently"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Please_add_a_row_for_entering_characters_in_Google_Docs_(ad_maybe_Sheets_and_Presentations)" data-mw-thread-id="h-Please_add_a_row_for_entering_characters_in_Google_Docs_(ad_maybe_Sheets_and_Pre-2021-02-14T19:09:00.000Z"><span id="Please_add_a_row_for_entering_characters_in_Google_Docs_.28ad_maybe_Sheets_and_Presentations.29"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Please_add_a_row_for_entering_characters_in_Google_Docs_(ad_maybe_Sheets_and_Pre-2021-02-14T19:09:00.000Z"></span>Please add a row for entering characters in Google Docs (ad maybe Sheets and Presentations)<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Please_add_a_row_for_entering_characters_in_Google_Docs_(ad_maybe_Sheets_and_Pre-2021-02-14T19:09:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dash&action=edit&section=2" title="Edit section: Please add a row for entering characters in Google Docs (ad maybe Sheets and Presentations)"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Richardchaven-2021-02-14T19:09:00.000Z-Please_add_a_row_for_entering_characters_in_Google_Docs_(ad_maybe_Sheets_and_Pre"></span>Rendering dashes on computers has rows for major text editing systems. Please add a row for Google Docs <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Richardchaven&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Richardchaven (page does not exist)">Richard C Haven</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Richardchaven" title="User talk:Richardchaven">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-Richardchaven-2021-02-14T19:09:00.000Z-Please_add_a_row_for_entering_characters_in_Google_Docs_(ad_maybe_Sheets_and_Pre" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:09, 14 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Richardchaven-2021-02-14T19:09:00.000Z-Please_add_a_row_for_entering_characters_in_Google_Docs_(ad_maybe_Sheets_and_Pre"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Richardchaven-2021-02-14T19:09:00.000Z-Please_add_a_row_for_entering_characters_in_Google_Docs_(ad_maybe_Sheets_and_Pre"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-02-15T00:33:00.000Z-Richardchaven-2021-02-14T19:09:00.000Z"></span>@<a href="/w/index.php?title=User:Richardchaven&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Richardchaven (page does not exist)">Richardchaven</a>:</span>, welcome to Wikipedia. One of the first lessons you will learn is that if you want anything done around here, you have to do it yourself! We are all volunteers. Normally you would update the article yourself but updating tables can be a little bit risky. So may I suggest draft some text to go in the article, put it here, then someone will show you how to add it. Thank you. --<a href="/wiki/User:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User:John Maynard Friedman">John Maynard Friedman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:John Maynard Friedman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-02-15T00:33:00.000Z-Richardchaven-2021-02-14T19:09:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">00:33, 15 February 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-02-15T00:33:00.000Z-Richardchaven-2021-02-14T19:09:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-02-15T00:33:00.000Z-Richardchaven-2021-02-14T19:09:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="No_obvious_violation_of_WP:NPOV_or_WP:NOTGUIDE" data-mw-thread-id="h-No_obvious_violation_of_WP:NPOV_or_WP:NOTGUIDE-2021-07-19T17:50:00.000Z"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-No_obvious_violation_of_WP:NPOV_or_WP:NOTGUIDE-2021-07-19T17:50:00.000Z"></span>No obvious violation of WP:NPOV or WP:NOTGUIDE<span data-mw-comment-end="h-No_obvious_violation_of_WP:NPOV_or_WP:NOTGUIDE-2021-07-19T17:50:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dash&action=edit&section=3" title="Edit section: No obvious violation of WP:NPOV or WP:NOTGUIDE"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-19T17:50:00.000Z-No_obvious_violation_of_WP:NPOV_or_WP:NOTGUIDE"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User:John Maynard Friedman">John Maynard Friedman</a>:</span> I am reverting <a class="external text" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dash&diff=1034232625&oldid=1034220240">this</a> edit of yours as I cannot see that either WP:NPOV or WP:NOTGUIDE is violated. What of point of view do you think is advocated? And NOTGUIDE says </p> <dl><dd>Describing to the reader how people or things use or do something is encyclopedic; instructing the reader in the imperative mood about how to use or do something is not.</dd></dl> <p>There is no required limit to descriptions of "how people or things use or do something", including detailed use of the numeric encoding of HTML that you find excessive. </p><p>Also, your mention of "when en dashes are used in phrasing" is unnecessarily obscure. "Phrasing", per <a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/phrasing#Noun" class="extiw" title="wikt:phrasing">Wikt:phrasing § Noun</a> is "The way a statement is put together, particularly in matters of style and word choice." This covers nearly all uses of the en dash. Perhaps the sentence could read </p> <dl><dd>It is only when en dashes are used in setting off parenthetical expressions – such as this one – that they take spaces around them.</dd></dl> <p><a href="/wiki/User:Peter_M._Brown" title="User:Peter M. Brown">Peter Brown</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Peter_M._Brown" title="User talk:Peter M. Brown">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-19T17:50:00.000Z-No_obvious_violation_of_WP:NPOV_or_WP:NOTGUIDE" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:50, 19 July 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-19T17:50:00.000Z-No_obvious_violation_of_WP:NPOV_or_WP:NOTGUIDE"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-19T17:50:00.000Z-No_obvious_violation_of_WP:NPOV_or_WP:NOTGUIDE"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-19T21:58:00.000Z-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-19T17:50:00.000Z"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Peter_M._Brown" title="User:Peter M. Brown">Peter M. Brown</a>:</span> the npov challenge was the description of spaced ndash as doing the job of emdash, implying that the latter is the correct or reference form. Maybe in the US it is but not elsewhere.</dd> <dd>The notguide challenge was to tell readers how to encode the hex or decimal values as HTML. Seriously?</dd> <dd>Your suggestion reads fine to me, go ahead. --<a href="/wiki/User:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User:John Maynard Friedman">John Maynard Friedman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:John Maynard Friedman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-19T21:58:00.000Z-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-19T17:50:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:58, 19 July 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-19T21:58:00.000Z-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-19T17:50:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-19T21:58:00.000Z-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-19T17:50:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-19T22:33:00.000Z-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-19T21:58:00.000Z"></span>Done. <a href="/wiki/User:Macrakis" title="User:Macrakis">Macrakis</a> has deleted the material concerning the hex and decimal values. While I still think it unobjectionable, I'll let the deletion stand. <a href="/wiki/User:Peter_M._Brown" title="User:Peter M. Brown">Peter Brown</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Peter_M._Brown" title="User talk:Peter M. Brown">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-19T22:33:00.000Z-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-19T21:58:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">22:33, 19 July 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-19T22:33:00.000Z-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-19T21:58:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-19T22:33:00.000Z-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-19T21:58:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Bringhurst's_criticism_of_the_em_dash_is_only_one_opinion" data-mw-thread-id="h-Bringhurst's_criticism_of_the_em_dash_is_only_one_opinion-2021-07-22T02:17:00.000Z"><span id="Bringhurst.27s_criticism_of_the_em_dash_is_only_one_opinion"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Bringhurst's_criticism_of_the_em_dash_is_only_one_opinion-2021-07-22T02:17:00.000Z"></span>Bringhurst's criticism of the em dash is only one opinion<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Bringhurst's_criticism_of_the_em_dash_is_only_one_opinion-2021-07-22T02:17:00.000Z"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dash&action=edit&section=4" title="Edit section: Bringhurst's criticism of the em dash is only one opinion"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-22T02:17:00.000Z-Bringhurst's_criticism_of_the_em_dash_is_only_one_opinion"></span>In <a href="/wiki/Dash#Parenthetic_and_other_uses_at_the_sentence_level" title="Dash">Dash § Parenthetic and other uses at the sentence level</a>, it is implied that the spaced en dash gives "clearer typography than 'set close' em-dashes." <i><a href="/wiki/The_Elements_of_Typographic_Style" title="The Elements of Typographic Style">The Elements of Typographic Style</a></i> by <a href="/wiki/Robert_Bringhurst" title="Robert Bringhurst">Robert Bringhurst</a> is cited in support. However, as <a href="/wiki/Dash#En_dash_versus_em_dash" title="Dash">Dash § En dash versus em dash</a> makes quite clear, the matter is controversial; <a href="/wiki/Oxford_University_Press" title="Oxford University Press">Oxford University Press</a>, among other publishers, prefers the unspaced em dash. I am accordingly labeling as <span class="nowrap">{{</span><a href="/wiki/Template:Dubious" title="Template:Dubious">Dubious</a><span class="nowrap">}}</span> the claim that the en dash is clearer. <a href="/wiki/User:Peter_M._Brown" title="User:Peter M. Brown">Peter Brown</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Peter_M._Brown" title="User talk:Peter M. Brown">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-22T02:17:00.000Z-Bringhurst's_criticism_of_the_em_dash_is_only_one_opinion" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">02:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-22T02:17:00.000Z-Bringhurst's_criticism_of_the_em_dash_is_only_one_opinion"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-22T02:17:00.000Z-Bringhurst's_criticism_of_the_em_dash_is_only_one_opinion"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-22T12:13:00.000Z-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-22T02:17:00.000Z"></span>True, I should not have expressed it in Wikivoice. I will rephrase it later today to make clear whose opinion it is. [I highly recommend his book, btw. It is free to borrow from the archive.org library.] But just as a an OR observation: tightset emdashes were the norm in Victorian England; they are vanishingly rare today unless the publication has a substantial US market. Nobody made a rule that spaced endashes should be the new normal, typographers just preferred it. --<a href="/wiki/User:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User:John Maynard Friedman">John Maynard Friedman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:John Maynard Friedman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-22T12:13:00.000Z-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-22T02:17:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-22T12:13:00.000Z-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-22T02:17:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-22T12:13:00.000Z-Peter_M._Brown-2021-07-22T02:17:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl> <dl><dd><dl><dd><b><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Tcr25-2021-07-22T12:45:00.000Z-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-22T12:13:00.000Z"></span>Comment</b>. I'm not sure increasing use of spaced endashes can be attributed to typographer preference as much as the transition from traditional typesetting to DTP software and autocorrect/autoformatting settings. Personal observation so take it with a grain of salt (and obviously not citable), but I've found that knowledge of how and when to use endashes vs. emdashes vs. hyphens is pretty uncommon even among people who do DTP and layout as a profession (mostly speaking of trade publishing and marcom). —<a href="/wiki/User:Tcr25" title="User:Tcr25">Carter</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Tcr25" title="User talk:Tcr25">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-Tcr25-2021-07-22T12:45:00.000Z-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-22T12:13:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:45, 22 July 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Tcr25-2021-07-22T12:45:00.000Z-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-22T12:13:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Tcr25-2021-07-22T12:45:00.000Z-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-22T12:13:00.000Z"></span> <dl><dd><span class="template-ping"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-22T14:26:00.000Z-Tcr25-2021-07-22T12:45:00.000Z"></span>@<a href="/wiki/User:Peter_M._Brown" title="User:Peter M. Brown">Peter M. Brown</a>:</span> I couldn't find a clever way to fix it, so I have (more or less) reverted to status quo ante. Given that there is a section on en-dash v em-dash – and it is flagged at the beginning of the section – I decided that it would be labouring the point. I should point out that my 'more or less' means that I have discarded the opening words that took unspaced em-dash as the starting point for analysis.</dd> <dd><span class="template-ping">@<a href="/wiki/User:Tcr25" title="User:Tcr25">Tcr25</a>:</span> you are probably right about "the facts on the ground", but <a href="/wiki/Robert_Bringhurst" title="Robert Bringhurst">Robert Bringhurst</a> (a noted Canadian typographer) is rather emphatic on the subject:</dd> <dd><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1244412712">.mw-parser-output .templatequote{overflow:hidden;margin:1em 0;padding:0 32px}.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{line-height:1.5em;text-align:left;margin-top:0}@media(min-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{padding-left:1.6em}}</style><blockquote class="templatequote"><p>In typescript, a double hyphen (--) is often used for a long dash. Double hyphens in a typeset document are a sure sign that the type was set by a typist, not a typographer. A typographer will use an em dash, three-quarter em, or en dash, depending on context or personal style. The em dash is the nineteenth-century standard, still prescribed in many editorial style books, but the em dash is too long for use with the best text faces. Like the oversized space between sentences, it belongs to the padded and corseted aesthetic of Victorian typography.<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-1"><span class="cite-bracket">[</span>1<span class="cite-bracket">]</span></a></sup> </p><div class="templatequotecite">— <cite>Robert Bringhurst</cite></div></blockquote></dd> <dd>Hopefully this resolves the dispute. --<a href="/wiki/User:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User:John Maynard Friedman">John Maynard Friedman</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:John_Maynard_Friedman" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:John Maynard Friedman">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-22T14:26:00.000Z-Tcr25-2021-07-22T12:45:00.000Z" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-22T14:26:00.000Z-Tcr25-2021-07-22T12:45:00.000Z"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-John_Maynard_Friedman-2021-07-22T14:26:00.000Z-Tcr25-2021-07-22T12:45:00.000Z"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl></dd></dl> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1232521257">.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk{margin:auto 0;border:1px dashed var(--border-color-base,#a2a9b1);padding:4px;padding-left:1em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-talk-title{font-weight:bold}</style><div class="reflist-talk"> <p class="reflist-talk-title">References</p> <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1239543626">.mw-parser-output .reflist{margin-bottom:0.5em;list-style-type:decimal}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .reflist{font-size:90%}}.mw-parser-output .reflist .references{font-size:100%;margin-bottom:0;list-style-type:inherit}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-2{column-width:30em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns-3{column-width:25em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns{margin-top:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns ol{margin-top:0}.mw-parser-output .reflist-columns li{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-alpha{list-style-type:upper-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-upper-roman{list-style-type:upper-roman}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-alpha{list-style-type:lower-alpha}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-greek{list-style-type:lower-greek}.mw-parser-output .reflist-lower-roman{list-style-type:lower-roman}</style><div class="reflist"> <div class="mw-references-wrap"><ol class="references"> <li id="cite_note-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-1">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1238218222">.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit;word-wrap:break-word}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .citation:target{background-color:rgba(0,127,255,0.133)}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free.id-lock-free a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited.id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration.id-lock-registration a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription.id-lock-subscription a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,body:not(.skin-timeless):not(.skin-minerva) .mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background-size:contain;padding:0 1em 0 0}.mw-parser-output .cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{color:var(--color-error,#d33)}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#085;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}@media screen{.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{color:#18911f}}</style><cite id="CITEREFBringhurst2004" class="citation book cs1">Bringhurst, Robert (2004). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://archive.org/details/isbn_9780881791327/page/80/mode/2up"><i>The elements of typographic style</i></a> (third ed.). Hartley & Marks, Publishers. p. 80. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-88179-206-5" title="Special:BookSources/978-0-88179-206-5"><bdi>978-0-88179-206-5</bdi></a><span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="nowrap">10 November</span> 2020</span>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=The+elements+of+typographic+style&rft.pages=80&rft.edition=third&rft.pub=Hartley+%26+Marks%2C+Publishers&rft.date=2004&rft.isbn=978-0-88179-206-5&rft.aulast=Bringhurst&rft.aufirst=Robert&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2Fisbn_9780881791327%2Fpage%2F80%2Fmode%2F2up&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3ADash" class="Z3988"></span><span class="cs1-maint citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_book" title="Template:Cite book">cite book</a>}}</code>: CS1 maint: url-status (<a href="/wiki/Category:CS1_maint:_url-status" title="Category:CS1 maint: url-status">link</a>)</span></span> </li> </ol></div></div> </div> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="5x" data-mw-thread-id="h-5x-20230114120900"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-5x-20230114120900"></span>5x<span data-mw-comment-end="h-5x-20230114120900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dash&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: 5x"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GhostInTheMachine-20230114120900-5x"></span>I propose changing the 5x column of the Unicode table to include a "standard" letter as well. This would highlight the vertical position of the different forms of dash. An upper case M seems a suitable choice — as in <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1248585704">@media screen{html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}@media screen and (prefers-color-scheme:dark){html.skin-theme-clientpref-os .mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{color:#00B785}}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk{font-family:Georgia,"DejaVu Serif",serif;color:#008560;quotes:none}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-italic{font-family:inherit;font-style:italic}.mw-parser-output .inline-quote-talk-marks{quotes:"\"""\""}</style><q class="inline-quote-talk">M-----</q> vs. <link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1248585704"><q class="inline-quote-talk">M____</q> — <a href="/wiki/User:GhostInTheMachine" title="User:GhostInTheMachine">GhostInTheMachine</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:GhostInTheMachine" title="User talk:GhostInTheMachine">talk to me</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-GhostInTheMachine-20230114120900-5x" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">12:09, 14 January 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GhostInTheMachine-20230114120900-5x"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GhostInTheMachine-20230114120900-5x"></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-GhostInTheMachine-20230127111400-GhostInTheMachine-20230114120900"></span><span typeof="mw:File"><span><img alt="Green tick" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="13" height="13" class="mw-file-element" srcset="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/20px-Green_check.svg.png 1.5x, //upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/26px-Green_check.svg.png 2x" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600"/></span></span><span style="display:none">Y</span> No objections, so went ahead — <a href="/wiki/User:GhostInTheMachine" title="User:GhostInTheMachine">GhostInTheMachine</a> <sup><a href="/wiki/User_talk:GhostInTheMachine" title="User talk:GhostInTheMachine">talk to me</a></sup> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-GhostInTheMachine-20230127111400-GhostInTheMachine-20230114120900" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">11:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-GhostInTheMachine-20230127111400-GhostInTheMachine-20230114120900"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-GhostInTheMachine-20230127111400-GhostInTheMachine-20230114120900"></span></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Example_of_hyphens_used_as_en-dashes" data-mw-thread-id="h-Example_of_hyphens_used_as_en-dashes-20230318173300"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Example_of_hyphens_used_as_en-dashes-20230318173300"></span>Example of hyphens used as en-dashes<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Example_of_hyphens_used_as_en-dashes-20230318173300"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dash&action=edit&section=6" title="Edit section: Example of hyphens used as en-dashes"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-FuturSimple-20230318173300-Example_of_hyphens_used_as_en-dashes"></span>I understand it's Wikipedia policy to use en-dashes for coordinate terms, but in this sentence, it makes no sense to use en-dashes, since it's an example of places where hyphens are used instead. As such, this is is confusing to read: </p><p>-- </p><p>For example, the <i><a href="/wiki/The_American_Heritage_Dictionary_of_the_English_Language" title="The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language">American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language</a></i>, the <i><a href="/wiki/AMA_Manual_of_Style" title="AMA Manual of Style">AMA Manual of Style</a></i>, and <a href="/wiki/Dorland%27s_medical_reference_works" title="Dorland's medical reference works">Dorland's medical reference works</a> use hyphens, not en dashes, in coordinate terms (such as <i><a href="/wiki/Blood%E2%80%93brain_barrier" title="Blood–brain barrier">blood–brain barrier</a></i>), in <a href="/wiki/Eponym" title="Eponym">eponyms</a> (such as <i><a href="/wiki/Cheyne%E2%80%93Stokes_respiration" title="Cheyne–Stokes respiration">Cheyne–Stokes respiration</a></i>, <i><a href="/wiki/Kaplan%E2%80%93Meier_method" class="mw-redirect" title="Kaplan–Meier method">Kaplan–Meier method</a></i>), and so on. </p><p>-- </p><p>I had changed it to hyphens, but it got reverted (on 2019-08-21), and I disagree with the reasoning behind the reversion. Like, put a [sic] after each such hyphen if you want, but it's an example, so it should be shown as is, warts and all. IMHO, YMMV, etc. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:FuturSimple&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:FuturSimple (page does not exist)">FuturSimple</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:FuturSimple" title="User talk:FuturSimple">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-FuturSimple-20230318173300-Example_of_hyphens_used_as_en-dashes" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:33, 18 March 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-FuturSimple-20230318173300-Example_of_hyphens_used_as_en-dashes"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-FuturSimple-20230318173300-Example_of_hyphens_used_as_en-dashes"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="New_York-London_flight" data-mw-thread-id="h-New_York-London_flight-20230515191600"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-New_York-London_flight-20230515191600"></span>New York-London flight<span data-mw-comment-end="h-New_York-London_flight-20230515191600"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dash&action=edit&section=7" title="Edit section: New York-London flight"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-EntirelyOnline-20230515191600-New_York-London_flight"></span>New York-London flight under "En dash § relationships and connections" doesn't make sense: </p><p>It states that "New York-London flight" could be misconstrued as a New flight from York to London, and suggests the use of the phrase "New York-to-London". This phrasing has the <i>exact same issue</i>. Should we just use an example other than New York and forget the whole ambiguity bit? <a href="/wiki/User:EntirelyOnline" title="User:EntirelyOnline">EntirelyOnline</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:EntirelyOnline" title="User talk:EntirelyOnline">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-EntirelyOnline-20230515191600-New_York-London_flight" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">19:16, 15 May 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-EntirelyOnline-20230515191600-New_York-London_flight"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-EntirelyOnline-20230515191600-New_York-London_flight"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Use_of_en-dashes_for_description_of/elaboration_on_listed_items" data-mw-thread-id="h-Use_of_en-dashes_for_description_of/elaboration_on_listed_items-20230726160500"><span id="Use_of_en-dashes_for_description_of.2Felaboration_on_listed_items"></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Use_of_en-dashes_for_description_of/elaboration_on_listed_items-20230726160500"></span>Use of en-dashes for description of/elaboration on listed items<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Use_of_en-dashes_for_description_of/elaboration_on_listed_items-20230726160500"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dash&action=edit&section=8" title="Edit section: Use of en-dashes for description of/elaboration on listed items"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-SMikutsky-20230726160500-Use_of_en-dashes_for_description_of/elaboration_on_listed_items"></span>Wikipedia, including this article (§"See also"), uses en-dashes to define, elaborate on, and describe items in numbered and bulleted lists; however this article makes no reference to this use case. This use case should be added—either describing it or providing a link elsewhere that does. <a href="/w/index.php?title=User:SMikutsky&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:SMikutsky (page does not exist)">SMikutsky</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:SMikutsky" class="mw-redirect" title="User talk:SMikutsky">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-SMikutsky-20230726160500-Use_of_en-dashes_for_description_of/elaboration_on_listed_items" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">16:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-SMikutsky-20230726160500-Use_of_en-dashes_for_description_of/elaboration_on_listed_items"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-SMikutsky-20230726160500-Use_of_en-dashes_for_description_of/elaboration_on_listed_items"></span> </p> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Suspended_section_"Typing_the_characters"._Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual." data-mw-thread-id="h-Suspended_section_"Typing_the_characters"._Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual.-20240323140700"><span id="Suspended_section_.22Typing_the_characters.22._Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual."></span><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Suspended_section_"Typing_the_characters"._Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual.-20240323140700"></span>Suspended section "Typing the characters". Wikipedia is not a manual.<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Suspended_section_"Typing_the_characters"._Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual.-20240323140700"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dash&action=edit&section=9" title="Edit section: Suspended section "Typing the characters". Wikipedia is not a manual."><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JMF-20240323140700-Suspended_section_"Typing_the_characters"._Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual."></span>I have temporarily commented out the section "Typing the characters". As it stood, it is an egregious violation of <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTMANUAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTMANUAL">WP:NOTMANUAL</a> and <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:DUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:DUE">WP:DUE</a>. It is bogged down in the detail of different OSs, different keyboards, different keyboard mappings. How is it encyclopedic? <a href="/wiki/User:JMF" title="User:JMF">𝕁𝕄𝔽</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JMF" title="User talk:JMF">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-JMF-20240323140700-Suspended_section_"Typing_the_characters"._Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual." class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">14:07, 23 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JMF-20240323140700-Suspended_section_"Typing_the_characters"._Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual."><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JMF-20240323140700-Suspended_section_"Typing_the_characters"._Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual."></span> </p> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-Peter_M._Brown-20240323171800-JMF-20240323140700"></span>What am missing? I don't see <i>any</i> reference to specific OSs. <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTMANUAL" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:NOTMANUAL">WP:NOTMANUAL</a> does discourage use of the imperative mood, but the imperative-mood use of the verb "see", present to help the reader find <style data-mw-deduplicate="TemplateStyles:r1214402035">.mw-parser-output .sfrac{white-space:nowrap}.mw-parser-output .sfrac.tion,.mw-parser-output .sfrac .tion{display:inline-block;vertical-align:-0.5em;font-size:85%;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .sfrac .num{display:block;line-height:1em;margin:0.0em 0.1em;border-bottom:1px solid}.mw-parser-output .sfrac .den{display:block;line-height:1em;margin:0.1em 0.1em}.mw-parser-output .sr-only{border:0;clip:rect(0,0,0,0);clip-path:polygon(0px 0px,0px 0px,0px 0px);height:1px;margin:-1px;overflow:hidden;padding:0;position:absolute;width:1px}</style><span class="sfrac">⁠<span class="tion"><span class="num">his</span><span class="sr-only">/</span><span class="den">her</span></span>⁠</span> way around in Wikipedia, is surely justified. The phrase "it became common" introduces a legitimate historical claim that is defective in that no source is provided, but that calls for <a href="/wiki/Template:Citation_needed" title="Template:Citation needed">Template:Citation needed</a>, not for suppression of the claim. "It may also be possible ..." also requires elaboration but, again, editors may be be able to provide it.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>The sentence beginning "It is common ..." is sourced to <a href="/wiki/Robert_Bringhurst" title="Robert Bringhurst">Robert Bringhurst</a>. I am unfamiliar with his work — perhaps it can be used to support more of the section's claims?</dd> <dd><a href="/wiki/User:Peter_M._Brown" title="User:Peter M. Brown">Peter Brown</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:Peter_M._Brown" title="User talk:Peter M. Brown">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-Peter_M._Brown-20240323171800-JMF-20240323140700" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">17:18, 23 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-Peter_M._Brown-20240323171800-JMF-20240323140700"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-Peter_M._Brown-20240323171800-JMF-20240323140700"></span> <dl><dd><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-JMF-20240323212900-Peter_M._Brown-20240323171800"></span>My concern is really that the section is a <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Cfork" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:Cfork">wp:cfork</a> of <a href="/wiki/Unicode_input" title="Unicode input">Unicode input</a>, <a href="/wiki/QWERTY" title="QWERTY">QWERTY</a>, <a href="/wiki/QWERTZ" title="QWERTZ">QWERTZ</a>, <a href="/wiki/AZERTY" title="AZERTY">AZERTY</a>, <a href="/wiki/MsWindows" class="mw-redirect" title="MsWindows">MsWindows</a>, <a href="/wiki/IOS" title="IOS">iOS</a>, <a href="/wiki/Linux" title="Linux">Linux</a>, <a href="/wiki/ChromeOS" title="ChromeOS">ChromeOS</a>, etc. To give instructions on how to use Windows, iOS, Android, Linux to enter symbols is (IMO) just <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:UNDUE">WP:UNDUE</a>. Yes, we should use the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:See_also" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:See also">WP:See also</a> to point readers at this material but it is crazy to replicate it (in a variety of forms and detail) at each article about every symbol. It also seems probable that the whole thing has been technically obsoleted by autocorrect, which replaces a pair of hyphen-minuses with an mdash and a space hyhen-minus space with a spaced ndash.</dd> <dd>Bringhurst is the touchstone reference for modern typography: you can borrow it via the <a href="/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiLibrary" class="mw-redirect" title="Wikipedia:WikiLibrary">WP:WikiLibrary</a>. I can't recommend it too highly. <ul><li><link rel="mw-deduplicated-inline-style" href="mw-data:TemplateStyles:r1238218222"><cite id="CITEREFBringhurst2004" class="citation book cs1">Bringhurst, Robert (2004). <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="https://archive.org/details/isbn_9780881791327"><i>The elements of typographic style</i></a> (third ed.). Seattle: Hartley & Marks. <a href="/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)" class="mw-redirect" title="ISBN (identifier)">ISBN</a> <a href="/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-88179-206-5" title="Special:BookSources/978-0-88179-206-5"><bdi>978-0-88179-206-5</bdi></a>.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=The+elements+of+typographic+style&rft.place=Seattle&rft.edition=third&rft.pub=Hartley+%26+Marks&rft.date=2004&rft.isbn=978-0-88179-206-5&rft.aulast=Bringhurst&rft.aufirst=Robert&rft_id=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2Fisbn_9780881791327&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3ATalk%3ADash" class="Z3988"></span>.</li></ul></dd> <dd>It doesn't contain anything (that I can recall) about how to do typesetting (or electronic equivalent) – nor would I expect that it would, for the same reasons as I've set out above. --<a href="/wiki/User:JMF" title="User:JMF">𝕁𝕄𝔽</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:JMF" title="User talk:JMF">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-JMF-20240323212900-Peter_M._Brown-20240323171800" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">21:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-JMF-20240323212900-Peter_M._Brown-20240323171800"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-JMF-20240323212900-Peter_M._Brown-20240323171800"></span></dd></dl></dd></dl> <div class="mw-heading mw-heading2 ext-discussiontools-init-section"><h2 id="Compound_sentence" data-mw-thread-id="h-Compound_sentence-20241013033900"><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="h-Compound_sentence-20241013033900"></span>Compound sentence<span data-mw-comment-end="h-Compound_sentence-20241013033900"></span></h2><span class="mw-editsection"><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">[</span><a href="/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dash&action=edit&section=10" title="Edit section: Compound sentence"><span>edit</span></a><span class="mw-editsection-bracket">]</span></span><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar"><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-metadata"></div><div class="ext-discussiontools-init-section-actions"></div></div></div> <p><span data-mw-comment-start="" id="c-37.61.116.126-20241013033900-Compound_sentence"></span>From:@Leyli Khankishieva </p><p>A sentence that has at least two independed clause joined by comma or conjunction <a href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/37.61.116.126" title="Special:Contributions/37.61.116.126">37.61.116.126</a> (<a href="/w/index.php?title=User_talk:37.61.116.126&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User talk:37.61.116.126 (page does not exist)">talk</a>) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dash#c-37.61.116.126-20241013033900-Compound_sentence" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">03:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-thread-id="c-37.61.116.126-20241013033900-Compound_sentence"><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">[</span><a class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-reply" role="button" tabindex="0" href="">reply</a><span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-bracket">]</span></span><span data-mw-comment-end="c-37.61.116.126-20241013033900-Compound_sentence"></span> </p>    </div><noscript><img src="https://login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAutoLogin/start?type=1x1&useformat=desktop" alt="" width="1" height="1" style="border: none; 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